mystara-digest Wednesday, March 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 179 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Somewhat off-topic greeting! Elves (was Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystarans Unite Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard of all [MYSTARA] - Barimoor and Holy Slayers (was: Other cultures) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard of all Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:46:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Somewhat off-topic greeting! Hey all! Haven't been around for the past week due to the fact that I moved to California last Tuesday! Boy you guys have been active! I had 700 messages to clear out of my mailbox! Anyway, in case anyone was wondering where I was, I'm back, and I'll respond to all the appropriate messages as I can. It's good to see you all again, and I hope to resume talking about Mystara ASAP! - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:59:41 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Elves (was Re: [MYSTARA] - AD&D) In a message dated 98-03-17 00:09:40 EST, cpb@gatewest.net writes: >Ability scores have nothing to do with it... I only know the old PHB - but the >elves were much more gifted than any of the other races in that book. As I said earlier a 1st level elf mage will have more advantages than a 1st human mage. Of all of the advantages that an Elf has, only two seem to present any game balance problems: 1) The ability to cast spells while wearing armor (present in D&D for all Elves, and in 1st edition AD&D for Cleric/Mages and Fighter/Mages). 2) The 90% resistance to Sleep and Charm spells (present in both editions of AD&D). For Mystaran Elves, the second ability should be discarded as it was for Athasian Elves. We are stuck with the first ability, though, as it is a part of the setting. However, Gaz 5 did balance this ability a bit by limiting the spells available to Elves. From an analysis of the spell list in that book, I would recommend that multi-clased Elf Mages not be allowed to cast Mage spells from the Evocation/Invocation or Necromancy schools -- this limitation would steer them towards the sorts of spells that are found in that gazetteer. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:00 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystarans Unite In a message dated 98-03-17 02:23:52 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Well, if communication is going to be easy to establish and keep then I do wwish the Immortals would close the openings. Alphatia should be concentrating on their 'new' world and forget the outer world for now. That makes sense if you mean that they should focus the bulk of their attention on the Hollow World. But should they ignore the outer world completely? That would not make sense, especially when folks like Haldemar are willing to make the trip back and forth. >The people of the outer world shouldn't ever find out if the Hollow World is real. But many of them already know or suspect something about the Hollow World. The days when somebody like Joshuan can dismiss the Hollow World as a myth should have ended almost as soon as his almanac saw print. >If Alphatia seeks to establish contact with the outer world so much, why not immigrate to it? They already have established contact, albeit on a rather tenuous basis. And there is a big difference between wanting to stay in touch and wanting to be elsewhere -- for example, I regularly correspond with people all over the world, but I am quite content to stay where I am for the time being. I suspect that most Alphatians feel likewise. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:09 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed In a message dated 98-03-17 04:46:49 EST, Flindor@aol.com writes: >-Just a thought: I am currently perusing my modules and have come to the cconclusion that if the pc's play these modules they might save/reinstate about a 1/2 dozen or so nations or governments. I find this an outrageous short- >cut in creative adventure writing that so many adventures end in a Wesly Crusher >- "I'm here to save the day" kind of deal that I felt like ranting about it. SSorry if that sounded kind of negative. Here is where you should get creative -- what if your players fail? Most later published material assume that the party completes these adventures in a satisfactory manner. >-Has anyone played Tortles of the Purple Sage from dungeon magazine? is it any good? what part of Mystara does it take place in? I have not seen or played this adventure, but I am pretty sure that it takes place somewhere along the Savage Coast. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:07 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed In a message dated 98-03-17 04:46:49 EST, Flindor@aol.com writes: >-Once the pc's get out of thyatis I want to run X2:castle amber (circa AAC1000-1). I have yet to introduce Glantri in any meaningful way (they've only adventured in karameikos and thyatis) and wondered if anyone out there had played this module in light of the gazeteers at this time. For instance >- should there be Ambers throughout Glantri? or should they all reappear with >the conclusion of X2?. All other published material about Glantri assumes that this adventure has been completed. If you plan to run this adventure, then New Averoigne should be deserted (or at least in a state of anarchy, with no nobles present) and Klantyre should not yet exist. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:05 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed In a message dated 98-03-17 04:46:49 EST, Flindor@aol.com writes: >-I have had endless problems with the "danger sense" skill on pg. 83 of the RRC. When gaming I do a lot of foreshadowing out of habit "you feel a sense of dread as you lower yourself into the crypt" kinda thing so the skill is kind >of redundant here. Also there is danger just about everywhere in a dungeon so a pc could get a form of sensory overload. Has anybody come up with a good and fast rule for this skill? The "sensory overload" idea is an excellent one. I would suspect that this skill should work best in aboveground adventures where the party is not expecting danger around every corner. Also, remember that you and not the player makes the skill roll. If he fails the roll, conceal your glee. But if he makes it, let it be activated for even the most trivial of threats -- a lone kobold waiting in ambush should set off the danger sense. Unless the party is in an area that they have just cleansed of foes, the character with this skill should be sensing danger wherever he goes. Eventually he will disregard his danger sense, at his own cost. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:13 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri Here is a scary thought -- perhaps Glantri should be associated with the Technocracy. After all, they do seem to take a "scientific" approach to magic. By the way -- did anyone besides me see a connection between Glantri and the old USSR? After all, both were multi-ethnic nations with a generally cool to cold temperate climate held together only by an anti-religious philosophy. And both of them have changed radically in recent years, and there are serious questions as to how stable either nation is. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:00:16 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... One thing about Terari if he is used in a "Wizards Three" story (or would it be "Wizards Four" with his presence?): he would be one heck of a lot more interesting than the other wizards. There are probably few Mystarans wiser than he is -- he made some terrible mistakes when he attacked Thyatis as Alphatian emperor, but I suspect that by now he has learned enough from them that he could give his daughter some useful advice if she would listen. And whereas most people who are disgraces as he was would surrender to despair, Terari/Tylion managed to build a second life for himself that in many ways is superior to the one he lost. But the major question I have is this -- how would the other wizards get into contact with Terari? He certainly has not been looking for them -- have they been looking for somebody like him? Given the likelihood of some major barriers between Mystara and the rest of the multiverse, the issue of how contact is established is an important one. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:06:14 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... Kaviyd wrote: >But the major question I have is this -- how would the other wizards get into contact with Terari? He certainly has not been looking for them -- have they been looking for somebody like him? Given the likelihood of some major barriers between Mystara and the rest of the multiverse, the issue of how contact is established is an important one. I would assume contact has been established sometime before hand as both Elminster and Mordenkainen travel the planes frequently. Mystarians are known according to Planescape (they believe their world is the center of the universe) so it wouldn't be a far reach to guess that contact between the wizards could have occurred before. I believe Planescape considers Mystara just another one of the many primes. The way they are actually connected is what remains unknown. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:05:04 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard of all On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >In the last times I've read Terari's name very often. So I start a new thread, in which I explain why he is the coolest wizard in the whole TSR omniverse. AND that he his a good example what Mystara really is. Allright, I'll take your challenge and give you reasons why Etienne d'Ambreville is the coolest! >1. He is an ex-emperor. >2. He stepped down for his daughter. >3. He is a politician. >4. He is teacher. >5. He is a sports fan. >6. He has humour. >7. He has family (at least one daughter and five grandchildren). 1. Etienne is an ex-prince (some may say *the* Prince), and an Immortal 2. He was taken down by the Old Ones, and has risen again. 3. He is a crafty politician (hey, he was able to survive and prosper in the mire of Glantrian politics). 4. He is the best teacher of magic you could ever hope for. 5. Hmm, don't know about sports, unless you count watching your enemies trip all over themselves in an effort to take you down as a sport. 6. NOBODY can rival Etienne's humour. 7. And let's not even mention the size of Etienne's family :) Another reason: 8. He does not conform to established traditions of good and evil. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:52:38 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Barimoor and Holy Slayers (was: Other cultures) On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >a couple more questions: 1) couldn't Barimoor be *secretly* controlling things, so they wouldn't even know he was a mage? irony of ironies ... It's possible. >and 2) why does Barimoor have to honorable to acheive immortality? who is doing the judging, anyway? His Immortal patron, whoever he/she is (Rathanos?) >just wondering. i'm a tenacious little bugger when i like an idea. So am I :) ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:10:11 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Adapting AD&D to Mystara On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Hmm, the one I thought should go was the infravision. I never understood why a race that lived above ground would have it. The vision of the Birthright elves is much more logical. They see in darkness as well as humans in daylight if there is a visible moon or stars. I've been thinking about this too. Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:16:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #179 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e6bef93987771005fe8fded4031dc46d One way you could argue for the elves having infravision is that they are the descendants of the Yuan-ti. Some snakes are believed to have infravision so this could be a characteristic that remained. Anyway, every race in xD&D seems to have infravision and this is rather annoying. I see no problem changing the Mystara elves vision into Nightvision. (I guess this is what AD&D calls ultravision.) Dwarves' infravision could be replaced with some form of earth sense. They can feel vibrations in the earth or something. Just an idea. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:45:11 +0100 From: Lorenzo Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules MichaelX Harvey wrote: >Geoff wrote: >>Mike wrote: >>>I am working on Java software right now to create such maps. It should be ready for testing in another week or two. >>Hmmm! You have my interest! What would the hex images look like? >Anything you want. They're GIF images, so if you don't like the defaults you can substitute your own. A question regarding trail maps: how wide and tall are the maps, in terms of hexes? I want to make sure the program can *comfortably* handle large enough maps. >Mike That sounds VERY interesting. Keep us informed when you finish it ! Thanks. Lorenzo. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:04:59 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizar... At 02:00 AM 3/18/98 EST, you wrote: >But the major question I have is this -- how would the other wizards get into contact with Terari? He certainly has not been looking for them -- have they been looking for somebody like him? Given the likelihood of some major barriers between Mystara and the rest of the multiverse, the issue of how contact is established is an important one. Well, there are supposedly barriers between Krynn and other worlds, and if you go there you might not be able to leave; but Dalamar has no trouble getting to the meetings. Yes, the Immortals set had a different planar setup than the AD&D multiverse, but if Elminster can drop in on Ed Greenwood on a regular basis, he can certainly find a way through to Mystara. After all, both Toril and Mystara border our plane, right? :-) Maybe Terari was doing some planar research and suddenly found himself in our dimension. He could sense Elminster's presence in an otherwise low-magic environment and investigate. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:07:01 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri At 02:00 AM 3/18/98 EST, you wrote: >By the way -- did anyone besides me see a connection between Glantri and the old USSR? After all, both were multi-ethnic nations with a generally cool to cold temperate climate held together only by an anti-religious philosophy. And both of them have changed radically in recent years, and there are serious questions as to how stable either nation is. Actually, I always saw Glantri as a mini-Europe; France, Scotland, Spain, Italy, Moors, Belgium, Germany...sounds pretty clear, doesn't it? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:02:21 +0000 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 Elisabeth and Michael wrote: NNothing was more evident then the loss of direction for Mystara then the release of products after >the Rules Cyclopedia. Where a new setting was created with little reference to the rest of the Known world I assume you are talking of the Hollow World? Just what is it that people have against it? Ever since I first bought the boxed set, I have been enchanted with the Hollow World. The HWRs and adventures did a lot more to interest me, too. In my opinion the Hollow World has a great deal of reference to the Known World - let's face it, we have direct predecessors to many of the modern nations, a whole slew of history linking everything up in what is basically a coherent manner, even if there are still discrepancies here and there (and believe me, I know all about this from working on my timeline). On the contrary, I think the Hollow World if anything added a whole new direction to Mystara, expanding it into the past, present and future to a great extent. Additionally if it was not for the Hollow World there might never have been as much information as there is now on the Immortals. Remember, it is the all-encompassing history and indeed the whole concept of the Hollow World which brought the need for more information on the Immortals in the first place. Certainly if there had been no Hollow World, Ka the Preserver would never have been created, and many other Immortals share his roots in the Hollow World. Now I know that you will say I am biased (after all, I am the one writing events for the Hollow World for the next almanac), or a D&D purist (also pretty much true - see my reply to Rick), but I honestly don't see why people aren't excited by the Hollow World. Please, if you have a reason, I'd love to hear it! Thorf. Defender of Mystara's "lesser regions" ========================================= "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Thorfinn Tait--Curufin@velvia.demon.co.uk Unofficial Keeper of the Offical Timeline ========================================= *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:36:50 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed >>-Has anyone played Tortles of the Purple Sage from dungeon magazine? is it >>any good? what part of Mystara does it take place in? >I have not seen or played this adventure, but I am pretty sure that it takes place somewhere along the Savage Coast. I am surprised at how few people have access to this adventure. It involves escorting a group of tortle refugees from the camps of the lawful brotherhood (The same area as the modern day settlement along the southern coast) to the ancient tortle lands north of the gatorman swamps. It does, in the 2nd part, contain info on lands never covered in the Red Steel setting. Some neat ruins and magical gates are included. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:46:12 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard of all >1. Etienne is an ex-prince (some may say *the* Prince), and an Immortal 2. He was taken down by the Old Ones, and has risen again. 3. He is a crafty politician (hey, he was able to survive and prosper in the mire of Glantrian politics). >4. He is the best teacher of magic you could ever hope for. 5. Hmm, don't know about sports, unless you count watching your enemies trip all over themselves in an effort to take you down as a sport. 6. NOBODY can rival Etienne's humour. >7. And let's not even mention the size of Etienne's family :) I would add that Etienne is the older of the two and is the head of a secret organization. Although I must say that I have not allied with either as yet... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:46:25 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth At 01:02 AM 3/17/98 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 Elisabeth and Michael wrote: NNNothing was more evident then the loss of direction for Mystara then the release of products after >>the Rules Cyclopedia. Where a new setting was created with little reference to the rest of the Known world >I assume you are talking of the Hollow World? Just what is it that people have against it? >>Excellent defense of the Hollow World snipped<< I can't truly answer for the fellow who wrote the original comment, but my assumption is that he was referring to "Thunder Rift" and not the Hollow World. In which case, I agree with him. Why was this setting created when a perfectly good "Basic setting" could have been placed specifically in a Known World region? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:35:15 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising In a message dated 98-03-17 14:03:00 EST, you write: << On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >Things to point out- >Magic. Gamers love magic. With Alphatia in HW the magic factor is reduced. I >can think of but a few magical constructs that impressed my old group more than the conjured images of an Alphatian SkyShip. How common is magic? the Karameikan Magicians Guild were never that powerful. The School of Magecraft changed that, though. I think Mystara is full of powerful mages, but magic doesnt become trivial. It remains mysterious. Glantri is probably the most mysterious of all places in the known world.>> Actually magic is pretty common if you think about it. True the Karameikans were minor players until Terari showed up. But the first mage a starting PC (using the Red Box) is Bargle, a Traldaran. Glantri is a big mysterious entity in regards to magic. However, IMO it pales to Alphatia. You left out- Thyatis- Not known for its mages, it does have a large number of them. As well as clerics. How many mages? A bunch, but not nearly as many as Alphatia. Still, there is a territory (Scalaras?) in the Empire that 250 36th level mages. Not exactly the Grand Council of Alphatia, but what is. Ierendi- Honor Island. An island chop full of mages. Minrothad Guilds- Magic to enhance sailing. Hmm....interesting. Alfheim, Wendar, Shadow Elves- Elves = fighter mages. Thothia (yeah its technically Alphatia)- Egypt with real magic. Undead warriors, pyramids, and it's own particular magic. Ethengar- Few mages but alot of clerics. Heldannic Knights- Clerics out the tail. Alphatia- The big boy in regards to magic. One fifth are mages. An additional number are clerics. Equals a bunch a casters. Magic is everywhere. >Fantasy. Gamers play xD&D for its fantasy aspect. Let us put fantasy back into >the setting. Legends, lore, and the images of armoured knights and wizened wizards should come to mind. And let us get back to basics. Let us get rid of >democracies and return to kings, queens, tyrants, and conquerors. Secret orders, cults, and sects are a must. Interesting. I think a danger here could be to fall into the trap of cliches. Lets stay away from the most abused elements of Tolkien and TSR novels. Mystara should remain different from these. >> But you could also fall into a cliche trap if democracies and Councils start to become the norm. My suggestion is a balancing out of different government structures. And no straight out democracies. Have a powerful ruler, supported by a more representative based body. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 09:21:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Yes, I think "preservation" works better, and is more likely to meet with a positive response from TSR. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:51 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules << Anything you want. They're GIF images, so if you don't like the defaults you can substitute your own. A question regarding trail maps: how wide and tall are the maps, in terms of hexes? I want to make sure the program can *comfortably* handle large enough maps. 109 hex wide, 156 hex high. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:59 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth << Possibly very true; but I wonder if his fifty years in exile (sort of) after losing the war with Thyatis and being deposed haven't changed his outlook; especially since he's been in Karameikos a few years, which has a much less-serious outlook than Alphatia. Not so much Imperial majesty and pomp around here; we Karamekians are a plain-speaking folk who prefer action to florid phrasing. I think he's lightened up a bit. Besides, look at Dalamar; when he first joined that group he was a nasty-attitude dark elf-type who glared at both of them and was ready to start a spell-brawl. I don't think Terari would be that bad. >> You didn't understand me. I meant that Master Terari would estimate the three and their meetings as funny or ridiculous. And the three would Terari see a little bit like Fizban. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:53 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages Who knows which Mystaran ruler uses the services of magic-users ko keep the weather around him as he like it? The meaning of this question and the answer will be explained in a few days. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #179 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 180 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara [MYSTARA] - Java Hex Mapper Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - (*Way* Off Topic) Some Personal but Exciting News Re: [MYSTARA] - Page Update Re: [MYSTARA] - Java Hex Mapper [MYSTARA] - Missing Posts Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - threads and stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:20:02 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Hi, I've a question about "undead lieges and pawns". RC states that "when a charachter tries to turn pawns, the attempt is checked as if against the liege. If the attempt fails, teh pawns are completely unaffected (...). If the turn succeeds, the control link is broken, but there's no other effect. A second attempt at turning the same group must be made to the former pawns to be turned with normal chances and results." Imagine the following chain of command: a Lich controls a Wraith, who in turn controls a Skeleton. My question is: when a cleric tries to turn the Skeleton (pawn) he must check against the Wraith (liege), but, since that liege is also a pawn, should the roll be made against the Lich or not? Now a question for the DM among you: how do you handle this liege/pawn thing? Clerics players usually know that they need to roll a certain figure to turn a specific undead and they also know that if they fail they cannot attempt to turn that undead again immediately. So, how do you explain your high level cleric that he failed in turning that skeleton, but he may try again? - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:17 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern At 18.00 16/03/98 -0600, Galwylin wrote: AAt 11:43 PM 3/16/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Anyway virtually any Immortal could have a major impact on Mystara: just imagine what quiet immortals as Protius, Khoronus and Terra could do if they want to? >I agree, I was just wondering which do. I kinda thought Protius, Khoronus and Terra did have a large impact on Mystara though. Maybe no meteors but they seem to concern themselves with aspects that do involve many over the globe. Vanya on the other hand seems more focused and might not be known across the globe. The problem is that there're Immortals who have (or could have) a large impact on Mystara, but don't show up very much (e.g. Protius, Terra, Ka, The Great One), while others show up a lot, sort of "prime-time" Immortals, because their followers are quite active (Vanya and Atzanteotl for example), though the Immortals themselves are not that powerful (if compared to the hierarchs, of course). Hope I made my ideas clear. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:52:30 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules MichaelX Harvey meandered fecklessly... >>>I am working on Java software right now to create such maps. It should be ready for testing in another week or two. >>Hmmm! You have my interest! What would the hex images look like? >Anything you want. They're GIF images, so if you don't like the defaults you can substitute your own. A question regarding trail maps: how wide and tall are the maps, in terms of hexes? I want to make sure the program can *comfortably* handle large enough maps. Sounds cool. I have searched long and hard on the net for a program that could be used to recreate the maps of Mystara, but have yet to find anything that really comes close. The big question for me is... will you be able to export maps in a standard graphics format (i.e. BMP, JPG, GIF, etc.), and if so, at what resolution? Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:13:21 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard << Allright, I'll take your challenge and give you reasons why Etienne d'Ambreville is the coolest! 1. Etienne is an ex-prince (some may say *the* Prince), and an Immortal 2. He was taken down by the Old Ones, and has risen again. 3. He is a crafty politician (hey, he was able to survive and prosper in the mire of Glantrian politics). 4. He is the best teacher of magic you could ever hope for. 5. Hmm, don't know about sports, unless you count watching your enemies trip all over themselves in an effort to take you down as a sport. 6. NOBODY can rival Etienne's humour. 7. And let's not even mention the size of Etienne's family :) Another reason: 8. He does not conform to established traditions of good and evil. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski >> It seems to me that you haven't misunderstood me. I haven't wanted Etienne or somebody else be brought into any kind of competition. But that you've started that: Etienne is disqualified, as he is a swindler. Etienne is not a magic-user, he is an immortal. But in this category he might have good chance though... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:18:11 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages At 14.13 18/03/98 EST, you wrote: >Who knows which Mystaran ruler uses the services of magic-users ko keep the weather around him as he like it? Maybe King Doriath of Alfheim and his predecessors. After all Alfheim weather is (was) magically controlled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:00 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question At 02:20 PM 3/18/98 +0100, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: HHi, I've a question about "undead lieges and pawns". [...] >Now a question for the DM among you: how do you handle this liege/pawn thing? Clerics players usually know that they need to roll a certain figure to turn a specific undead and they also know that if they fail they cannot attempt to turn that undead again immediately. So, how do you explain your high level cleric that he failed in turning that skeleton, but he may try again? I've never had to deal with this before, but I would probably tell my Cleric who had successfully broken a liege-bond that he 'felt' the vile creatures flinch at his command, or that in the recesses of his mind he heard a distant 'twang' as of a taut cord snapping. Note also, that if the player knows what kind of roll would normally 'defeat' whatever he has tried to overcome, since the required roll for the leige would always be MUCH LESS, the fact that their very low roll did not turn (or destroy) the pawn should at least trigger them to the fact that they ARE controlled pawns. Trying a second time should then be an obvious choice, because there's a chance that the leige-pawn bond had been broken by the first attempt. Just my 2 passem worth ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:36:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara << Anyway, every race in xD&D seems to have infravision and this is rather annoying. I see no problem changing the Mystara elves vision into Nightvision. (I guess this is what AD&D calls ultravision.) Dwarves' infravision could be replaced with some form of earth sense. They can feel vibrations in the earth or something. Just an idea. >> I agree that Elves should have ultravision instead of infravision as well as some of the humanoid races.....but as for the Dwarves...I think it's a good idea to keep them with infravision. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 13:12:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules >The big question for me is... will you be able to export maps in a standard graphics format (i.e. BMP, JPG, GIF, etc.), and if so, at what resolution? Currently I can export a GIF at screen-resolution (WYSIWYG). I could add JPG and BMP if that is useful, though a fuzzy JPG image might not be ideal for a detailed map. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:47:12 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question << My question is: when a cleric tries to turn the Skeleton (pawn) he must check against the Wraith (liege), but, since that liege is also a pawn, should the roll be made against the Lich or not?>> No, not unless he was turning the wraith by those rules. The wraith controls the skeleton and that's all you have to worry about for the turning of the skeleton. <> Why would you (as the DM) have to explain it? All you can do is describe what happend during the attempt. IMC I'd probably drop a hint by stating "Your symbol starts shaking as you concentrate on destroying the undead......You slightly open your eyes to see the skeleton stop in it's tracks.....the joints began clattering....then a blackish hue forms an outline around your target....and the bones reset to their joints.....it continues to persue you......" - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:31:46 -0000 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed - -----Original Message----- From: Flindor To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: 17 March 1998 09:48 Subject: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed >I should be gaming in a week or two and am looking for any information that anyone can give me. >-I have had endless problems with the "danger sense" skill on pg. 83 of the RC. When gaming I do a lot of foreshadowing out of habit "you feel a sense of >dread as you lower yourself into the crypt" kinda thing so the skill is kind Same here. A cleric PC in my campaign has this so I have to keep in mind - is anything dangerous going to happen. Perhaps I am just misreading the skill. Of course Adventuring is dangerous so it should be going off all the time. I now use it as an 'On Demand' skill instead of a constant presence. >-Has anyone played arena of thyatis and legions of thyatis back to back? My >characters will be finishing the first one soon and am looking for a mini- adventure to fill in between them. In the second module it mentions that the >two might occur some time apart. Shameless plug here - there is an adventure on my homepage called 'The Last Journey' where the PC's escort a gladiator heroes body to his family village in NE Thyatis. It brought up a lot of moral problems as the hero used magic weapons in the arena (something that the fighter (aiming for paladinship) thought was wrong while other PC's didn't see anything wrong with it. It is in word format but if you want it in other formats I can provide it. Alan Jones aka Trimus D'Alberon / Thoria Hammerwrecker / Deris Of Clan Blackstar / Jodotha "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important" - Gary Gygax http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8306/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:43:43 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Thorfinn Tait wrote: >Now I know that you will say I am biased (after all, I am the one writing events for the Hollow World for the next almanac), or a D&D purist (also pretty much true - see my reply to Rick), but I honestly don't see why people aren't excited by the Hollow World. >Please, if you have a reason, I'd love to hear it! I like the idea of the Hollow World. Its the travel between the outer world and the Hollow World I dislike. The Hollow World should be a myth to most people of the outer world not a potential vacation spot that I feel the ties between the two are making it. Taking my last message about Alphatia's goal in the Hollow World, I thought they should concentrate on the current situation and forget the outer world. I feel by keeping such close ties, the tragedy of the destruction of Alphatia is lessen and Immortal interference isn't seen as such a bad thing if you can perserve a nation in the Hollow World when one gets overly excited. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 07:34:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #180 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: dfad0fd980d9b609d66746c4c3246708 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:54:38 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth JamugaKhan wrote: >You didn't understand me. I meant that Master Terari would estimate the three and their meetings as funny or ridiculous. And the three would Terari see a little bit like Fizban. Oh, I think Terari could cut lose a little. He's not stuffy all the time. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:50:28 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara rebirth Daly wrote: >I can't truly answer for the fellow who wrote the original comment, but my assumption is that he was referring to "Thunder Rift" and not the Hollow World. In which case, I agree with him. Why was this setting created when a perfectly good "Basic setting" could have been placed specifically in a Known World region? Now I'm one that dislikes saying someone's work is bad but that Thunder Rift was way bad. Not because it was removed from Mystara (which I plan to place in one of the undiscovered areas since I like the idea) but because he had apparently mixed up D&D with AD&D by having classes that aren't possible with D&D. I agree that it should have been placed in the Known World but it even went against the large box set it was designed to go with and that's a rather large mistake to make. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:52:43 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) MichaelX Harvey wrote: >Yes, I think "preservation" works better, and is more likely to meet with a positive response from TSR. On the Realms list there was talk about TSR perserving OOP Realms products (possibly by CD-ROM). Maybe the same can happen with D&D and all its wonderful material. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:12:07 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Inconu wrote: >I agree that Elves should have ultravision instead of infravision as well as some of the humanoid races.....but as for the Dwarves...I think it's a good idea to keep them with infravision. I think so too. Now, you could have gnomes more in tuned with the earth but I have trouble remembering what exactly is their primary occupation. Sometimes they're inventers and other times miners for gems. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:34:42 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Java Hex Mapper MichaelX Harvey meandered fecklessly... >>The big question for me is... will you be able to export maps in a standard graphics format (i.e. BMP, JPG, GIF, etc.), and if so, at what resolution? >Currently I can export a GIF at screen-resolution (WYSIWYG). I could add JPG and BMP if that is useful, though a fuzzy JPG image might not be ideal for a detailed map. The actual format is not overly important, since many graphic viewers and converters are available for free on the net. What would be a great improvement would be a higher resolution. 72 dpi pretty much guarantees you won't be able to resize the image in a satisfactory manner, plus puts limits on other graphic manipulation. I have hex mapping program that is surprisingly good, called Wilderness Mapper. Easy to use, decent interface, yet it has two big problems. The biggest is that you cannot add or modify symbols. The second is that it only exports in screen-res (72 dpi) BMP's. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:32:01 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Inconu pontificated: >I agree that Elves should have ultravision instead of infravision as well as some of the humanoid races.....but as for the Dwarves...I think it's a good idea to keep them with infravision. Remember ultravision and nightvision are a little different. Ultravision detect spectrum above violet, while nightvision just intensify the visible spectrum. I like elves have nightvision better. As many animals have them, while I think only some insects have the equivlent of ultravision. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:34:39 +0800 From: Glenn Butcher Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - (*Way* Off Topic) Some Personal but Exciting News Thus rambled Jenni A. M. Merrifield (strawberry@jamm.com): >Hey there, to all the MML'ers! >I have some personal News that I just *had* to share with this wonderful group of individuals that I interact with so often: >I AM EXPECTING MY FIRST CHILD! >The baby is due September 18th, and now that I'm going into my second tri-mester we've (my husband and I) started telling people outside of our immediate family about our happy news. >Well, that's my News :-) Now back to your regularly scheduled Mystaraverse messages. Congratulations. (Ok, so I'm a bit behind in my mail). Do you know yet if it is a boy or a girl? Glenn - -- mailto:knight@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au | "I take off all my magic, and finger -l for PGP public key | never, ever use any artifact http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/ | again." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:02:41 -0800 From: "Gregory Krynen" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Page Update uh, I may have missed it but what is your web pages address? Can't see those maps without it hahahahah Greg *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:47:13 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Java Hex Mapper >The actual format is not overly important, since many graphic viewers and converters are available for free on the net. What would be a great improvement would be a higher resolution. 72 dpi pretty much guarantees you won't be able to resize the image in a satisfactory manner, plus puts limits on other graphic manipulation. The hexmap itself is scalable to any resolution you want (subject to memory and CPU limitations) -- the only limit is the map-symbol images, which do not rescale (I could add scaling to the images, but resizing bitmaps usually ruins them). However, since the images are user-defined, you can make them any size you want, and thus obtain any resolution you like. Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:07:13 -0600 From: Michael McKnab Subject: [MYSTARA] - Missing Posts If anyone tried to email me yesterday (the 17th) I did not get your post, the stuipd server was (iss) acting up & I missed a huge amount of posts. So please repost your messages to me!! Thanks!! Yours for deeper & better dungeons, Thanks in advance, Michael Mcknab mikkey@carrollsweb.com P.S. If you or anyone you know has information on RPGA Network Slipcases please put me in contact with them or them with me!! Also looking for a 10th Annniversary AD&D collectors set that came in it's own stylized slipcase. Thanks. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:19 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Sounds cool. I have searched long and hard on the net for a program that could be used to recreate the maps of Mystara, but have yet to find anything that really comes close. The biggest problem with most hex mappers (e.g. GRID) is that their hexes are oriented differently than the ones on Mystaran maps. Mystaran hexes are flat sides up and down, while most hex mappers put flat sides on the right and left. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:45:19 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >It seems to me that you haven't misunderstood me. I haven't wanted Etienne or somebody else be brought into any kind of competition. I haven't misunderstood you (er...). It's just my attitude at work again... Whenever someone mentions a powerful mage, I have to mention why Etienne is better :) >But that you've started that: Etienne is disqualified, as he is a swindler. Etienne is not a magic-user, he is an immortal. But in this category he might have good chance though... And an Immortal can't be a magic-user? Besides, Etienne *is* a mage, and *Rad* is the Immortal :) And also, Etienne achieved Immortality with his magic. Can you name another mage who came even close to that feat? ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:54:32 +1030 From: "Cunningham" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri >Here is a scary thought -- perhaps Glantri should be associated with the Technocracy. After all, they do seem to take a "scientific" approach to magic. I'm wondering if the potential for a Technocratic emergence on Mystara exists. With so many powrful magic-using creatures and sorcerers lording over all the commoners, it could happen! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:09:27 +0000 From: Elisabeth and Michael Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - threads and stuff At 04:37 17/03/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:57:10 +0000, you wrote: >>At 15:07 15/03/98 GMT, you wrote: >>>On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:30:22 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >>> >>>>I couldn't agree more. I don't need tables for everything and find them more a nuisance than something useful. Especially with the Rules Cyclopedia, OD&D is a heckuva lot cheaper to start out on also. >>>AND this is why AD&D wins over D&D... It is simple and unfortunate eeeconomics. A >simple and elegant gaming system is lost because TSR can make more money off >selling more rules... sorta like the battle between Beta and VHS or UNIX and >Windows95... marketing and profit is what makes it in the marketplace. >>It's true that AD&D almost force you to but new rules but D&D produced the gazaters and the >>new player races (Wood creatures, sea creatures and the were beasties. An undead one would have been nice) >>By producing decent campaign material on a regular basis this can match the bombardment of AD&D rules >Ah... but that stuff is not unlike any of the campaign worlds that TSR produces >now... they are not really rules but information guides that fleshes out Mystara >even more. I would not classify the Gazzetes to be rules. Anything beyond the five boxed sets or the Cyclopedia is optional. That is totally true. Most of the material outside of The Boxed sets (Basic to Immortal and 'The new easy to master Dungeons and Dragons") and the rules Cyclopedia was to flesh the world out, or was option with exptions to the creature catalogue, record sheets, DM's and players screens. However, the point was the production of materials on the market to keep the consumers buying the product. 2nd Ed AD&D originally primarly did this using rules and D&D primarily used campaign material and could have continued doing so. P.S. All the Handbooks etc are optional as well. Actually any rule presented at all is up to the discretion of the DM >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #180 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:23:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #181 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e3e999cff1ed3c697042e887b2b936cf mystara-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 181 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:25:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Morrow Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages <Who knows which Mystaran ruler uses the services of magic-users ko keep the weather around him as he like it? Maybe King Doriath of Alfheim and his predecessors. After all Alfheim weather is (was) magically controlled.>> Nah. The Elves just let it rain. Believe it or not, Moglai, the Golden Khan of Ethengar has a Harkamon assigned to keeping the weather at his court pleasant. -III *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:52:49 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MAGE in Glantri >>Here is a scary thought -- perhaps Glantri should be associated with the Technocracy. After all, they do seem to take a "scientific" approach to magic. Well no. Its hermetic. But if You are familiar with MAGE, You should know, that hermetics have a kind of 'scientific' approach to magic. You Know formulas, spells, runes, components etc. I think Alphatia is something the hermetics would have became had they won the 'war' with the Cabal of Pure Thought back in late Middleages (or when ewer it was). >I'm wondering if the potential for a Technocratic emergence on Mystara exists. With so many powrful magic-using creatures and sorcerers lording over all the commoners, it could happen! I agree that the potential is small. But there are the mechanical wonders of the Aalban and Gnome societies. They are Tecnomagic in the sense the tecnocracy is presented in MAGE. If they try really hard, maybe someday, escpecially if Alphatians decide to help them for some reason (just on other kind of Pattern-reality...). Well, I dont see it coming too likely... But the idea is that the Tecnocratik society of Aalban (of which name I cannot remember at the moment) is what the Tecnocracy would have been if it lost. They try to invent new laws and machines, and they try to bring back the relics of Blackmoor too. Well, it really is the fallen tecnocracy in the sense, that they are really the only descendants of the Blackmoor civilication Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:13:46 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Inconu pontificated: >>I agree that Elves should have ultravision instead of infravision as well as some of the humanoid races.....but as for the Dwarves...I think it's a good idea to keep them with infravision. >Remember ultravision and nightvision are a little different. Ultravision detect spectrum above violet, while nightvision just intensify the visible spectrum. I like elves have nightvision better. As many animals have them, while I think only some insects have the equivlent of ultravision. Then I'm in favour of Nightvision for elves. I discussed this matter with a friend and he suggested that Infravision might be handy for the dwarves. They might use it to determine the heat of their forges etc. What about the Hin? Uhm do Halflings have IR-vision in OD&D? I dont remember at the moment. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:37:11 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >The problem is that there're Immortals who have (or could have) a large impact on Mystara, but don't show up very much (e.g. Protius, Terra, Ka, The Great One), while others show up a lot, sort of "prime-time" Immortals, because their followers are quite active (Vanya and Atzanteotl for example), though the Immortals themselves are not that powerful (if compared to the hierarchs, of course). >Hope I made my ideas clear. They are probably around, even though their mortal identities haven't been revealed yet. Ka is probably mostly concerned with the HW though. One more thing. I've been thinking about portraying Asterius a bit like Hermes. Hermes was the Patron of thieves among other things. Also the messenger of the Gods, and associated with language. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Any information on Hermes that you could share with me? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:54:11 -0600 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara and Rules Responding to the message of Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:19 +0200 (EET) from Aleksei Andrievski : >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >>Sounds cool. I have searched long and hard on the net for a program that could be used to recreate the maps of Mystara, but have yet to find anything that really comes close. >The biggest problem with most hex mappers (e.g. GRID) is that their hexes are oriented differently than the ones on Mystaran maps. Mystaran hexes are flat sides up and down, while most hex mappers put flat sides on the right and left. I came across this problem when I was working on detailing the Merry Pirate area. I just rotated the map 90 degrees and went from there... so I had to make some new grid pictures. It wasn't that big of a deal... but I guess it would have been nice if it had been correct to begin with. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:02:15 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-17 14:03:00 EST, Håvard writes: >How common is magic? the Karameikan Magicians Guild were never that powerful. The School of Magecraft changed that, though. I think Mystara is full of powerful mages, but magic doesnt become trivial. It remains mysterious. Glantri is probably the most mysterious of all places in the known world.>> >Actually magic is pretty common if you think about it. True the Karameikans were minor players until Terari showed up. But the first mage a starting PC (using the Red Box) is Bargle, a Traldaran. Glantri is a big mysterious entity in regards to magic. However, IMO it pales to Alphatia. You left out- Interesting. Alex(?): <> Håvard: >Interesting. I think a danger here could be to fall into the trap of cliches. Lets stay away from the most abused elements of Tolkien and TSR novels. Mystara should remain different from these. >> Alex: >But you could also fall into a cliche trap if democracies and Councils start to become the norm. My suggestion is a balancing out of different government structures. And no straight out democracies. Have a powerful ruler, supported by a more representative based body. Yes. This is probably a trap Mystara has already fallen into. However: I have been thinking about treating the houses of Darokin, much like clans. Somewhat inspired by Frank Herbert's Dune. They would resemble Noble houses. I don't think the American dream would be very apropriate in Darokin. The Nation is too well established for that. If you want a frontier setting, you could have Daokin invade the Athruagin Clans though. That would produce new land and could be a way of going from rags to riches for some. Though the Houses would probably get the most of the wealths from such an expansion. I have also been thinking about someone aiming for the position of King of Darokin. It would be one of the leaders of the Major Houses ofcourse. As for the socalled Viking Democracies, they were pretty good, but it all depended on the Vikings being reasonable. You could get away with anything at the Thing if you were powerful enough. Seems like there's going to be a king in Soderfjord too now, though. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:23:50 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages In a message dated 98-03-18 15:39:55 EST, you write: << Who knows which Mystaran ruler uses the services of magic-users ko keep the weather around him as he like it? The meaning of this question and the answer will be explained in a few days.>> JKhan Hmm....looking at the "IN BOX" I see several responses. Hoever I'll roll the dice.... The one that comes to mind is the Golden Khan. I cannot remember the name of his magist, but he is the one keeps a levitate or fly spell cast upon himself with a permanency attatchment. IIRC the Ethie Gaz says the mage oversees the weather to insure that the Khan's ceremonies and special hunts are uninterrupted by rain, winds, and other poor weather conditions. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:39:56 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question In a message dated 98-03-18 14:56:43 EST, Fabrizio writes: << Hi, I've a question about "undead lieges and pawns". RC states that "when a charachter tries to turn pawns, the attempt is checked as if against the liege. If the attempt fails, teh pawns are completely unaffected (...). If the turn succeeds, the control link is broken, but there's no other effect. A second attempt at turning the same group must be made to the former pawns to be turned with normal chances and results." Imagine the following chain of command: a Lich controls a Wraith, who in turn controls a Skeleton. My question is: when a cleric tries to turn the Skeleton (pawn) he must check against the Wraith (liege), but, since that liege is also a pawn, should the roll be made against the Lich or not?>> Well, it has been a while but this is how I would do it. The Turn roll would be made against the Lich. Since the lich overrules the wraith in authority, he should be the NPC used to determine the Turn against. <> Likewise, it has been a while but this is how I would do it. The party of adventurers come across a single skeeton acting as guard to a doorway. Instead of smashing him to bits like the stereotypical fighter Mel wishes, the party leader steps forward. Bart, cleric of Ka, steps forward and confronts the skeleton. Thrusting his holy symbol before him, he forcefully utters something to signify a Turn attempt. The DM rolls against a lich and Bart succeeds. His roll is so high and Bart is so powerful that normally the skeleton would have disintegrated. Instead it stands there looking stupid and begins drawing its sword. A puzzled Bart "feels" that something fled before his utterings, yet the skeleton remains and is slowly staggering towards them. Mel the fighter is going crazy in wanting to smash the skeleton. Bart raises his hand to halt him, and instinctively attempts another Turn. This one rolls successfully and the skeleton shimmies a bit before collapsing into a pile of dust. BTW the time spent has alerted the liege and reinforcements are on their way, led by the wraith. Mel will soon get his wish. The lich is also aware that a cleric is in the party and knows which one is that cleric. Guess who gets the soon to be arriving undeads' greatest attentions? BTW Fabrizio, my baby sister and her fiance are paying a visit to Italy. They are currently in the air. They are going to visit his mother who lives there (Sicily I think) before travelling to Malta to be married. Thought I'd share that. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:54:59 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question << So, how do you explain your high level cleric that he failed in turning that skeleton, but he may try again? -------------- Fabrizio Paoli >> Explain? Why explain anything? A player with a high level cleric should know this. O.k., I have to admit that I'm forgetting it sometimes myself. Just describe the situation and have fun. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:54:57 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ino/opinions needed << I am surprised at how few people have access to this adventure. It involves escorting a group of tortle refugees from the camps of the lawful brotherhood (The same area as the modern day settlement along the southern coast) to the ancient tortle lands north of the gatorman swamps. It does, in the 2nd part, contain info on lands never covered in the Red Steel setting. Some neat ruins and magical gates are included. >> Do you have it in electronic form, or someone else? Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:03:48 +0800 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:23:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #181 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e3e999cff1ed3c697042e887b2b936cf From: "Jason Murphy" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara >What about the Hin? Uhm do Halflings have IR-vision in OD&D? I dont remember at the moment. >Håvard Nope....not in OD&D at any rate. Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:11:25 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rulers and mages At 12:23 PM 3/19/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-18 15:39:55 EST, you write: ><< Who knows which Mystaran ruler uses the sservices of magic-users ko keep the weather around him as he like it? >The meaning of this question and the answer will be explained in a few days.>> JKhan >Hmm....looking at the "IN BOX" I see several responses. Hoever I'll roll the dice.... >The one that comes to mind is the Golden Khan. I cannot remember the name of his magist, but he is the one keeps a levitate or fly spell cast upon himself with a permanency attatchment. IIRC the Ethie Gaz says the mage oversees the weather to insure that the Khan's ceremonies and special hunts are uninterrupted by rain, winds, and other poor weather conditions. I imagine many do. But I know that Alphatian mages construct weather to suit them. In fact, in my description of Haven I have the huge southern swamp being a result of conflicting weather patterns all over the continent. It is the one area that there are no mages blowing the ill weather away from. Also I am working on a sect of mages devoted to weather (the thaumaturge). I am envisioning a future scene in which the characters are in the Imperial throne room. Eriadna is receiving reports from various mages and officials. The report from the thaumaturge is a little like a meterologist's report except: Eriadna, smiling: "And what have you planned for us today, Melrist?" Melrist the thaumaturge: "Ah yes your Imperial Majesty, we have a lovely clear morning today. Clouds will gather on the southern horizon and a light rain will fall on the farmlands. Those of your subjects who like a little wet are encouraged to be out in the hours immediately following noon. After the rain there will be a cool breeze blowing..." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:11:55 +0100 From: "Tomás Sánchez" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Matthew Levy wrote: >Yes, I think that was the general idea. I don't really know much about Iran to know whether such ideas have any validity, but it is certainly the case that the writers of X4-X5-X10 and the WotI were playing off of the idea of the Ayatollah as a deceitful evil propagandist. I personally think the idea of a church and religion based on constant deception is a more appropriate reflection of US politics than of any other country, but that's I suppose not particularly relevant. I'm finding this message specially attractive because it gives me the oportunity to read about your personal feelings, opinions and ideas. No matter if they are mystara related or not. Neither if i share them or not. >The way it finally shapes up is that Hule's language is based on Turkish but its politics is based upon a particular image of Iran in the late 20th century, except this is complicated by the inclusion of Loki, the story of the blue knife, and other such things. You've arisen my curiosity once more. Why did you reasoned its language was based on Turkish ? And what is the blue knife connection ? >There are a lot of different ways to approach such things. The problem of using the real world and especially present day politics for models for a jointly-constructed fantasy world is that the images you are working from will be very different depending on your outlook, and it's also very easy to get hyper-self-righteous (notice all the debates about slavery on the list recently). I am unabashedly a leftist in my political outlook, but not at all of the dogmatic variety. As a political philosophy student, one of my interests is the intellectual history of modern concepts of race and related political ideologies I should have guessed. Now i understand all you worries about mystaran races and politics. You've written you're interested in modern concepts of race and related political ideologies. Do you refer to ideologies which are tightly tied to a particular race ? >so I've discussed with Daly the proposition that D&D is in many ways a subtly racist and imperialistic game. What things have you spotted to be sign of racism or imperialism ? I can think in some of them but i'd love to read what you have discovered. I'm sure you have been more subtle. >I don't think that any shame should result from this, but it is important to recognize. I realize that I state things strongly, but this is not to be "politically correct", it is because I am intrigued by the conceptual structure of ideology and think one of the best ways to "fight one's inner fascism" is to examine our own fantasies in an ironic way. Hmm, this paragraph seems somewhat confusing. Although, i believe i've come with the righ ideat. You mean fantasy allow us to show places, persons and any other thing with only those attributes we want to emphasize. This way we can avoid reflecting those other properties that could distract us from analyzing those which are important. >So for instance, I can see that the image of Hosadus is a mirror of the western media's portrayal of the Ayatollah during the 1980's (whether this portrayal was anywhere near correct, i can't really say - i wouldn't have wanted to spend my spring break in tehran, but i don't believe everything i see on TV either) and i can see how the mission of the PC's in X4 is an ideological representation of the desire to go kick ass in the middle east ... knowing this can help me to be somewhat subversive in the way that i play my D&D, for instance having Darokin Diplomatic Corps personnel secretly trading high-powered wands for hostages and then being exposed in a big media scandal ... or hey, you could have alphatian weapons inspectors demanding entrance to Hulean territory to count the airships of mass destruction ... but i think you see my point. *Applauses* And it's really a good point. This is probably not only the best but the most refreshing message i've read in a long time. I love the idea. I've sometimes introduced new elements in my campaigns as the ones you have refered to. From time to time i've done so and this has allowed me to study real life things from a point of view difficult to achieve in our real world. This has also kept my campaign alive for a long time giving me and my players new opotunities to "play" with. >>Isle of Dawn >>In general, the nations along the eastern shore have been kingdoms of the Alphatian Empire, while the regions of the western shore have been provinces of Thyatis. >how do you apply this to Caerdwicca? its neither a nation nor a > > kingdom, and it's on the southern shore. :) >>He, he, he. PWAII page 42 says << it has been traditionally allied with thyatis . The PWA spoke about eastern and western shores so i guess they divided the island in two shares. No south shore was mentioned. Nice try. :) >ah. does it say how long it's been around? "traditionally" implies at least some time span, though with the number of wars and side-switches > on the IoD, it might be only relative. Maybe, maybe. You could be right. :) >anyway take care and let's keep up our IoD discussions, it seems we are the only ones interested (so let's rock and roll, ok?) O.K. If no other one involves in our discussion i'll not reply to the list but to you directly. Tomás Sánchez Jr deckard@encomix.es #ICQ 9190040 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:13:28 +0800 From: "Jason Murphy" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question >Imagine the following chain of command: a Lich controls a Wraith, who in turn controls a Skeleton. >My question is: when a cleric tries to turn the Skeleton (pawn) he must check against the Wraith (liege), but, since that liege is also a pawn, should the roll be made against the Lich or not?>> >Well, it has been a while but this is how I would do it. The Turn roll would >be made against the Lich. Since the lich overrules the wraith in authority, he >should be the NPC used to determine the Turn against. hmmm....i havent done it this way. My players and I decided that the roll would be maid against the wraith as, in this instance, you are simply trying to overcome the control of the undead. And, as the control is comeing directly from the wraith, then the lich actually has nothing to do with the control being exerted. To put it another way, the control is effectively modular. The control exerted by the lich actually only has an indirect effect on the skeleton. Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:28:45 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar I've looked into GKoM a few days ago, and there is this story about an Ethengarian girl that annoyed me again. The wizard Alathis Alzul is working for Glantrian-Ethengarian network that is smuggling wizards out of Ethengar. This girl, Jella Da'rim, was one of them. He forced her to accept her magical talents and when he gave her the frredom she decided to stay in Glantri city. So far the story: As a fan of Ethengar (great surprise, isn't it? :-) ) I have to make my protest loud and clear! 1.: The name of the girl doesn't sound Ethengarian 2.: There is really no need to "save" Ethengarian wizard or would-be-wizards. 3.: There is no need to stay in GC to learn magic. The author obviously believed that Ethengar was the opposite to Glantri. That means: Glantri has wizards, but no clerics, and Ethengar has clerics, but no wizards. This is of course not true. THERE ARE Ethengarian wizards. They are called hakomons and are feared and respected on the Sea of Grass. (If Glantri see them on the same way is not known to me.) This goes so far, that Moglai Khan, the Golden Khan, the Great Khan of Ethengar employes Ethengarian wizards, the hakomons, to keep the weather in his surroundings like he likes it, a behaviour not known by any other ruler on Mystara. BTW: Congratulations! There are indeed people on the list who know the customs of Ethengar. Jamuga Khan "Rule Ethengar, Ethengar rule the world." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:55:32 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D The saving throw system I use in my own campaigns is now available on my website, and includes full rules for using this system in both AD&D and D&D. I am particularly interested in feedback on the D&D numbers, since these are a recent creation and haven't been playtested. While I am at it I thought I would point out there is also two new systems of magic on my site, one for mages and one for wizards. Although these are both for AD&D, one of the list members is looking at converting them to D&D (still at it, Jenni?) http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:37:24 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= pontificated: >I've been thinking about portraying Asterius a bit like Hermes. Hermes wa= s >the Patron of thieves among other things. Also the messenger of the Gods, and associated with language. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Any information on Hermes that you could share with me? I think it is a pretty good fit (assuming I remember Asterius correctly). I might fit even better with Mercury. The Roman also made him god of merchants, travellers, and atheletes. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:30:00 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D At 11:55 AM 3/19/98 -0000, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: [[...] >While I am at it I thought I would point out there is also two new systems of magic on my site, one for mages and one for wizards. Although these are both for AD&D, one of the list members is looking at converting them to D&D (still at it, Jenni?) Yup, still pluggin' away at it. I'm currently working on a 'total' list of all the D&D Mage Spells available from the RC and as many Gazetters and other References as I can get my paws on. So far I've listed the 'additional' spells from Alphatia, The Undersea Races and the Darokinian Merchants, and I'm just starting on the Minrothad Merchant Prince List (I'm figuring on adding info for Merchants and Merchant Princes in a similar way to how you've added info for AD&D Bards, although they will probably have much more significant restrictions). I've also picked out a few 'AD&D' Mage and Illusionist spells out of the 1st Ed. Players Handbook that would seem to 'complete' a few of the sparser areas of D&D Magic. As I have been making this list, I've given one or more 'categories' to each spell, that will (hopefully) make it easier to create the Path's later. I'll be attacking the Clerical magic rules after this is all done. :-) Actually, as I don't own a lot of Gazetters, etc. can anyone correct or clarify my musings in the lists below? Note that I do have access to pretty much all of them various books via another DM/player, so I don't need a list of spells, I just need to know which books I have to beg off my friend! Note also that I'm not even thinking about the Hollow World at this point, and I'm also more interested in the Gazetteer era than the WotI and beyond. This is because, while I *could* get access to this information, the players who have them have asked the rest of us not to delve too deeply until such a time as they can actually take us there! Please ignore any errors in the names, I'm writing these from memory! References I know contain additional Mage Spells: * Rules Cyclopedia (of course) * Alphatian book from DotE * The Sea People * Darokin * Minrothad Guilds * SkyShip Designers Manual from "Champions of Mystara" References I know DON'T contain additional Mage Spells: * Thyatian book and main book from DotE * Atruaghin Clans * The Five Shires * Irendi Islands * Adventurer's Guide from "Champions of Mystara" References I expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Galantri (no kidding, eh?) * Elves of Alfheim (ditto) References I DON'T expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Dwarves of Rockhome * Orcs of Thar * Night Howlers Other References I am aware of but can't decide whether I think they should/shouldn't have additional Mage Spells: * Karameikos * Northern Reaches * Tall Tales of the Wee Folk * Ylaruam * Ethingar * Top Ballista I think that's it. If I missed any 'official' references, or if you can correct or clarify any of those I'd be interested in hearing from you. :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #181 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 182 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Throw System) [MYSTARA] - Littonia! Re: [MYSTARA] - Page Update [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (10,000 - 8,000 BC) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:42:25 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar >>Lotsa info that I did not know snipped<< >This goes so far, that Moglai Khan, the Golden Khan, the Great Khan of Ethengar employes Ethengarian wizards, the hakomons, to keep the weather in his surroundings like he likes it, a behaviour not known by any other ruler on Mystara. This is not true, as I stated earlier. The Alphatians do control weather. You might be correct if you said "any other ruler in the Known World". But I don't know the accuracy of that statement. I think I may remember certain references to students of the Great School of Magic doing things in that area... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:02:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D At 12:30 PM 3/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 11:55 AM 3/19/98 -0000, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: [[[...] >>While I am at it I thought I would point out there is also two new systems of magic on my site, one for mages and one for wizards. Although these are both for AD&D, one of the list members is looking at converting them to D&D (still at it, Jenni?) >Yup, still pluggin' away at it. >References I know contain additional Mage Spells: * Rules Cyclopedia (of course) >* Alphatian book from DotE >* The Sea People >* Darokin >* Minrothad Guilds >* SkyShip Designers Manual from "Champions of Mystara" >References I know DON'T contain additional Mage Spells: * Thyatian book and main book from DotE >* Atruaghin Clans >* The Five Shires >* Irendi Islands >* Adventurer's Guide from "Champions of Mystara" >References I expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Galantri (no kidding, eh?) Actually scant extra spells. It does have several new "abilities" regarding the 7 secret crafts and courses that can be taken at the school. But it does not really have any new spells. >* Elves of Alfheim (ditto) Several new spells are in this one. >References I DON'T expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Dwarves of Rockhome >* Orcs of Thar There are no new spells in these two. >* Night Howlers Believe it or not, Night Howlers does contain one new spell called "Wind Whispers". It is 2nd level. >Other References I am aware of but can't decide whether I think they should/shouldn't have additional Mage Spells: * Karameikos No new spells. >* Northern Reaches Has several "Rune" spells. >* Tall Tales of the Wee Folk Has several new spells. >* Ylaruam >* Ethingar Both of these two have new spells. The latter has a new spell using class: The Shaman. >* Top Ballista The Faenare have several abilities which are very much like spells. >I think that's it. If I missed any 'official' references, Are you interested in modules as references? or if you can >correct or clarify any of those I'd be interested in hearing from you. :-) I hope I did not misunderstand what info you needed. Let me know if this was helpful or if you need any more info. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:07:19 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Jenni A. M. Merrifield >References I expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Galantri (no kidding, eh?) The only new spells in Glantri deal with the Radiance. >* Elves of Alfheim (ditto) There are new spells in EoA, but a GM would have to make a decision as to whether non-elves could learn them. I believe EoA does not allow this. >References I DON'T expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Dwarves of Rockhome >* Orcs of Thar >* Night Howlers Correct >Other References I am aware of but can't decide whether I think they should/shouldn't have additional Mage Spells: * Karameikos >* Northern Reaches >* Ylaruam >* Ethingar None of these have new wizard spells >* Top Ballista >* Tall Tales of the Wee Folk Don't own, thus I couldn't say. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:47:37 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question At 13.38 18/03/98 -0800, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >Note also, that if the player knows what kind of roll would normally 'defeat' whatever he has tried to overcome, since the required roll for the leige would always be MUCH LESS, the fact that their very low roll did not turn (or destroy) the pawn should at least trigger them to the fact that they ARE controlled pawns. Trying a second time should then be an obvious choice, because there's a chance that the leige-pawn bond had been broken by the first attempt. True, but my players did not know about the "liege-pawn" stuff, so the first I used it they were very surprised and didn't think they could try a second time. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:26:09 EST From: Mystaros Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues In a message dated 98-03-19 13:38:47 EST, you write: << You've arisen my curiosity once more. Why did you reasoned its language was based on Turkish ? >> Just check your helpful Turkish phrasebook :) It will also give you some clues as to the naming traditions of the OTHER Hulean Immortals IMC... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:57:02 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Throw System) [Re: Spells in Galantri Gaz] Jeff Daly wrote: >Actually scant extra spells. It does have several new "abilities" regarding the 7 secret crafts and courses that can be taken at the school. But it does not really have any new spells. And Leroy wrote: >The only new spells in Glantri deal with the Radiance. That's interesting. I figured there would definitly be some 'Galantri Specific' Mage spells, just as there are some 'Alphatia Specific' ones. I might not worry about getting access to this Gaz then... [Re: Spells in Elves of Alfheim Gaz] Jeff Daly wrote: >Several new spells are in this one. and Leroy wrote: >There are new spells in EoA, but a GM would have to make a decision as to whether non-elves could learn them. I believe EoA does not allow this. Hum. I'd thought that might be the case. This would be similar to how 'only' Darokin Merchants can use the Merchant spells. What I was thinking of doing in that case was to put all the 'Merchant' spells on one path, which would be the ONLY path a Merchant could follow (Or I might divide them up a bit, into say three 'mini paths') and then make it *VERY* hard for an average MU or Elf to get a hold of the spells on this path. I could easily do something similar for 'Elf Only' spells. I did figure I might decide to make a few of the Merchant spells 'more common' outside of the Darokin Merchant class -- I mean, I figure that there must have been at least one Darokinian Merchant who was also a Mage by trade, or was an Elf, and who jotted these 'new spells' down in a spell book or two.... I'll have to take a look at what the spells are and then make my decision. [Re: Spells in Night Howlers] Jeff Daly wrote >Believe it or not, Night Howlers does contain one new spell called "Wind Whispers". It is 2nd level. Is this an MU spell? If it is, can any mage use it or do they have to be a were? [Re: Spells in Northern Reaches Gaz] Jeff Daly Wrote >Has several "Rune" spells. These sound familiar, but I thought that 'Clerical' Spells? Right now I'm only interested in MU/Elf Spells. Leroy has a slightly different system for Clerical magic that I'll probably be attacking a bit later. [Re: Spells in Tall Tales of the Wee Folk] Jeff Daly Wrote >Has several new spells. It does? I thought it *might*, because I seemed to remember that the Sidhe used Mage Magic, but then I wasn't completely sure. so thanks for clarifying this for me. [Re: Spells in Ylaruam and Ethingar Gazes] Jeff Daly Wrote >Both of these two have new spells. The latter has a new spell using class: TThe Shaman. Isn't the Shaman was a 'Clerical' type Class? Are there any mage spells in the Ethingar Gaz? What about the Ylaruam Gaz -- are those spells Clerial or Magical? [Re: Spells in Top Ballista] Jeff Daly wrote: >The Faenare have several abilities which are very much like spells. Would these be spells that *might* be learned by a Mage or Elf, or are these abilites just something a Faenare happens to be able to do? Jeff Daly wrote: >Are you interested in modules as references? Hmmm - - - - - no, I don't think so. At least not right now. I want to get the 'basic' stuff in place first. Later I (and other DM's, assuming I share my D&D based take on Leroy's ideas) can 'slip' new spells that are from modules that were invented for my campaign, into the existing framework. Jeff Daly wrote >I hope I did not misunderstand what info you needed. Let me know if this was helpful or if you need any more info. Thanks for your info Jeff (You too Leroy), it was pretty much right on what I was looking for. Now if someon could just clarify some of the above points, I might actually be closer to finished solution :-) BTW: If you want to understand what I'm trying to do, you should try taking a look at Leroy's "Paths and Points" Magic system. The 'essays' for it and his other ideas are on the first page of his web site: http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Littonia! Hello all! Here is an historical synopsis of the land of Littonia: Littonia For many people, Norwold is considered the utmost border of civilization, beyond which only the wilds of northern Brun dominate. This is not so, for along the northeastern border of Norwold, far beyond the realms of the Known World, lies a small nation of brave people - Littonia. Much of the history of the Littonians is lost in the depths of time; few among these people know the full story, dating their own culture to the time of Karlis, the Unifier, and afterwards. In truth, the people who would populate the land of Littonia arose some 4,200 years ago, on the continent of Skothar. They were the last remnants of the Valemen, a fair people who had been all but obliterated by the fearsome Afridhi centuries before - the first conquests of that warlike people. They fled their homeland towards the southwest, and built tiny villages along the western reaches on Thonia. There they remained for two centuries, until the time of the Great Rain of Fire. Many Valefolk died in the disaster, and only the strongest were able to flee to their ships and sail to what would become Alphatia. It was a rich land, and the Valefolk settled along its eastern coasts. In less than three generations, though, the fair-skinned indigenous people, who called themselves the Yanifey, drove out the Valefolk. They resented the intrusions of these people upon their way of life, and were unwilling to share their land with anyone. Thus the Valefolk were driven from their homes only a century after they arrived to these shores. For years they were harried across the continent, until they arrived at the western shores, from which they sailed to what is now Norwold, in the region called the Great Bay. At this time it was still a frigid land, but some areas of the shorelines were habitable. The Valefolk eked out a living along these rugged shores, forgetting much of their culture as they fell into a long dark age. Centuries passed, and the Valefolk spread as the climate warmed. Much of their people migrated north of the Great Bay, to fertile plains and light forests along the coast that afforded them some measure of prosperity. The place they called their home was centred around a river that branched northeast from the mighty Landsplit River - the shallow Gaudava River. Life was hard, and short, but it was infinitely better than before. In the south, Valefolk built their homesteads as far as the coasts of the modern Heldannic Territories. The Valefolk would not be alone for long; soon after the southernmost homesteads had been built, a tall warlike people arrived from over the eastern seas. They called themselves the Antalians, and they pushed forth the Valefolk. Within decades, all Valefolk communities south of the Great Bay had been destroyed, their inhabitants either killed of driven forth. North of the Great Bay, a new identity arose among the Valefolk. Since coming to this new land, much of their old culture had been forgotten, as new beliefs, new traditions, and a new language developed. The northern Valefolk began to call themselves the Litoniesu, and their land Litonija. Despite this new identity, the Littonians were a fragmented people. Although many Littonians of the day recognized common bonds of language and religion, most swore allegiance to their clan chieftains. As a result, the Littonians spent as much time fighting each other as they did the northward-moving Antalians. For decades the Antalians surged northwards, clashing with the emerging Littonians. These folk were never defeated, though, for there always came among them one chieftain who would lead all the others to victory over the Antalians, and who would often fall into obscurity afterwards. This cycle of unity and disunity could have continued forever, were it not for the Frost Giants of Frosthaven. Roughly 3,000 years ago, a vast horde of Frost Giants, led by the fearsome Ulf One-Eye, surged southwards from their island home, reaving and destroying as they went. Beforehand the giants had troubled only the northernmost communities, where the remnants of those Valefolk who had lived south of the Great Bay now lived. Now, the giants ventured forth to conquer. They long coveted the richer lands of the Landsplit and Gaudava rivers, and saw the inhabitants as fitting slaves to their work for them. They stormed in from the north, and quickly overwhelmed the disunited Littonians one clan at a time. Within five years the entire region north of the Great Bay was under Ulf's rule. He named his realm Nordenheim. Ulf was a cruel ruler. He routinely had Littonians who showed any form of resistance brutally tortured, often in front of their families. Many Littonians were tied to their farms, forbidden to leave under pain of death, and forced to give away most of their harvests to their overlords, who grew decadent from their easy life. Whenever there was to be a great celebration among the giants, Ulf would order the most able-bodied slaves to fight in arenas for the amusement of their masters. The greatest horror inflicted upon the Littonians was the construction of Ulf's great citadel, Høgborg. Seven years were spent building the colossal structure, all of which was done by slave labour. So many died in building the structure, and in the giants' other depredations, that the Littonians began to decline in number. Were it not for the rise of Namejs the Leader, all hope may have been lost for the Littonians. The man who would become Namejs the Leader was a landowner of some reputation, and a clan leader. Namejs laboured hard under the rule of Ulf's giants, and saw his tremendous pains rewarded by the arbitrary death of his family. One of the locals, in an attempt to curry favour with the giants, reported that Namejs was trying to incite a rebellion. Though this was not true, the giants tore apart his home, and forced him to watch the deaths of his wife and children. Broken over such a great loss, he vowed to have his vengeance upon the overlords who caused both him and his people so much suffering. Not long afterwards, he attacked a lone Frost Giant in a rage, and managed to kill him with a well-placed blow to the head while his opponent was down. He was surprised at his act, as were a small gathering of Littonians who happened to witness the deed. Gaining heart from this act, he then assembled a band of freedom fighters and melted into the surrounding hills and woods. Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:59:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #182 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: acc99e6369f38b14770faaff0fd09a51 The next years were spent fighting a guerilla campaign against the giants. Well-armed bands led by Namejs would leap out of forests, swamps, and other places of concealment to attack and kill unsuspecting giant warriors. As soon as any organized resistance could be brought to bear, the rebels melted back into the wilderness. Many years passed, and Ulf's warriors could not locate Namejs' stronghold, nor could they capture any of his men. Soon enough, tales of Namejs' deeds spread across Nordenheim, until many slaves rose up against their masters, killing them in any way possible. The greatest battle took place at the coastal village of Gaudavpils, which spanned the Gaudava River where it entered the eastern seas. Many giants died at that battle, and news of this resounding victory spread like wildfire. Before long, Namejs had assembled a great host of rebels, who then stormed Høgborg and killed Ulf. They then destroyed the citadel, thus destroying the testament to their oppression. Their leader dead and their power broken, the remaining giants fled Nordenheim for their homes in Frosthaven, abandoning their dreams of empire. Namejs was then made the first king of Littonia, in recognition for his deeds. Namejs ruled wisely, but reluctantly. He was not a king at heart, and would have rather kept the peace within his own clan hall. His rule lasted many years, and he presided over a period of great unity and peace. His sons did not have his personal charisma, or his will to keep the peace for all Littonians. As the decades passed, the ruling line of Littonia grew weak, and the people began to identify more with their own clans and clan leaders once more. The Littonians expanded south to the Great Bay once more - the Antalians having been eliminated as a major threat during the invasion of Loark's horde centuries before. All lands north of the Great Bay and east of the Icereach Mountains were theirs. Only the lands around the Gaudava River, and immediately to the north, were thickly settled. The remaining lands were dotted with homesteads and farms, as much of the land was too poor for intensive farming. So Littonia remained a kingdom in name only for many years. The clan leaders paid lip service to the king, and did what they pleased in their own lands - even warring amongst themselves. The realm was further weakened by the resentment felt by the Lietuvas towards the dominant Litoniesu. Descended from those Valefolk who were driven north by the Antalians centuries before, the Lietuvas had developed a distinctive dialect of the Littonian language, and had a slightly different outlook on life. They settled north of the Gaudava River, and kept largely to themselves. They saw themselves living in a land designed by Litoniesu, for Litoniesu. So, almost 200 years after the death of Namejs the Leader, the Lietuvas declared their lands independent of Littonia, thus creating the Realm of Lietuvos. This began years of war between both peoples, with neither gaining the upper hand. As more people were taken off of their farms to fight their neighbours, more and more fields grew fallow, and villages began to be abandoned. The bloodletting continued for some 40 years, off and on, and in the end both sides were so weakened that the Realm of Lietuvos collapsed into anarchy, and what remained of Littonia fragmented even further. Thus began another long dark age for the Littonians, in which few left their homes or clan holdings, and roving goblinoids advanced from the southwest. The giants of Frosthaven returned several times over the next centuries, seeing that the nation forged by the hated Namejs had now collapsed into obscurity. With the giants raiding in the north, and goblinoids looting and burning in the south, times were grim for the Littonians, indeed. Then, a new leader was born. About 1100 years ago, a boy named Karlis was born in the Littonian village of Nevmala. A strong lad, he quickly grew into a warrior of considerable strength, and, as the eldest son of the local lord, soon became the ruler of Nevmala and the surrounding lands. One night, he dreamed of Namejs at his greatest battle, the Battle of Gaudavpils. He watched the combatants fight, and after it was over he saw Namejs come to him, and ask him to rebuild Littonia in its hour of need. Karlis awoke, and, knowing what had to be done if his people were to survive, he raised an army in his dominion, and marched upon his neighbours. Over the next 11 years, his armies spread throughout the various petty fiefdoms of what was once Littonia, uniting his people by diplomacy and by the sword. The final battle was fought only six years before his death, at the Lietuvan town of Siaiulai, where the mightiest Lietuvan lord was brought low before Karlis' armies. Though Karlis lived only six years after the reunification of Littonia, he has been revered ever after as Karlis the Unifier. To this day, many Littonians speak his name with awe. Unlike Namejs, Karlis left behind a strong line of succession, filled with kings and queens who wanted to keep their nation strong. It was not long afterwards that the new kingdom of Littonia faced its first great challenge. Scarcely seven years into the reign of Uldis, Karlis' eldest son, a strange people had come out of the west, from over the Icereach Range. They called themselves the Saamari, a bold people who were fleeing their ancient homeland in search of refuge. They crossed the mountains and settled amidst the grasslands and sparse forests in the western reaches of Littonia. Many Littonian farmers were crowded out of their lands as thousands of Saamari streamed from the mountains and built their villages. Word spread to Gaudavpils, which had since become a town of considerable size, where Uldis ruled his people. Hearing of what was happening, he sent his armies west to reclaim the lands that were lost. Many battles were fought over the ensuing years. Littonian raised arms against Saamari, as villages burned and borders shifted. The Saamari were too numerous, though, and ultimately the western reaches were lost to the newcomers, who called their land Kaarjala. Maris, the successor to Uldis after the former died in battle, had no wish to continue a fruitless war when there were still numerous enemies on all sides. The Heldannic folk to the south raided the southern Littonian settlements from time to time, just as the north was threatened by the giants of Frosthaven. Thus, in the first year of his reign, Maris appealed to the leader of the Saamari to meet with him in the town of Valmiera to discuss terms of peace. For a week they negotiated, until the Treaty of Valmiera was drafted and signed. Under the treaty's terms, the western lands would belong to the Saamari forevermore, and all lands east of the Gaudava river system would belong to Littonia. Each nation vowed never to attack the other, and in fact to render aid to the other when requested. Having achieved peace in the west, Maris turned his attention north and south, where he constructed lines of simple towers to hold back those who would do Littonia harm. Those defences were tested over time. On several occasions the denizens of Frosthaven swept from the north in search of easy plunder, and all too often found it in Littonia. Though many were turned back by the defences along the northern border, some always managed to break through and wreak havoc. On one occasion the towns of Valmiera and Nevmala were destroyed by the giants, who were then beaten back only with the aid of the Kaarjalans. Likewise, the Heldannic peoples ranged free along the southern frontiers, though this was curtailed sharply after the establishment of Alphatian colonies to the south. Littonia was quick to make peace with the Alphatians, and has benefitted from generally good relations with the dominions of Norwold ever since, though this happened far more recently. About 400 years ago, a second great migration took place. Thousands of people, who called themselves the Vaarana, and who were not unlike the Saamari, came up over the Icereach Range. They brought with them tales of woe, of great goblinoid hordes on the march. The rulers of Kaarjala and Littonia conferred soon afterwards, and determined that defences must be prepared for the onslaught that was sure to come. Alliances were struck with the elves and halflings living to the south. Not ten years after the Vaarana came over the mountains did a great horde of trolls, ogres, goblins, orcs, and Frost Giants storm over the Icereach Range. For many years both forces shed blood, and it seemed the entire north would be destroyed. Such would have happened, were it not for the arrival of the ancient heroes of Kaarjala, and of Namejs himself! Under the guidance of these legendary heroes, and with the aid of halfling stealth and elven magic, the Kaarjalans, Vaarana, and the Littonians were able to push the enemy back over the mountains, from which they have not issued since. Since that time, Littonia has become a true nation in its own right. Its ships ply the northern seas, venturing to places such as Qeodhar, Norwold, the Northern Reaches, and mainland Alphatia, trading Littonian and Kaarjalan goods for those items the two nations cannot otherwise get. Its borders are secure on all sides, and its people are proud of their history and culture. With the legacy of Namejs well-established, Littonia seems poised for prosperity, though it still lives under the shadow of Frosthaven. The summary timeline is in the next post - stay tuned! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:50:09 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Page Update Greg wrote: >uh, I may have missed it but what is your web pages address? Can't see those maps without it hahahahah Greg It's http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~mqualizz/mystara Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:58:48 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (10,000 - 8,000 BC) ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Synchronizing Ancient History (10,000 - 8,000 BC) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500 Here is a way to synchronize the timelines concerning the my Carnifex of Y'hog, and those events that transpired in Davania according to Mystaros' great Ages of Blackmoor timeline. Please note that the following suggestions are just that - suggestions. If you have found a better way to synchronize them, then all the better! I would be more than interested in hearing how you did it. As some of you may know, some interesting material has been generated concerning events in what I call Primal, or Classical Mystara - the time period before the rise of Blackmoor, which is all but forgotten to sages in the modern era in the Known World. What is known of Blackmoor is but a fragment, and what is known of these more ancient times even less. Two articles which may be of especial interest are "The Ages of Blackmoor", by Mystaros, and "Of the Lore and Legends of Y'hog", by myself, as they detail events in ancient Davania, and concern remnants of that race which challenged the Immortals - the Carnifex. Although I intended for my work to stand alone, it is possible to synchronize both works, so that a seamless timeline can be created. What is done is basically adding events from the Carnifex of Y'hog timeline to that of Mystaros, though some modifications to the Y'hog timeline are also required. Credit is due to Mystaros, without whom much of my own work may not have been possible. Let's go: 10000 BC - 8000 BC Mystaros mentions the initial placement of cultures in the northern hemisphere in the first paragraph of this section. What needs to be added, to synchronize everything, is to mention the Lhomarrians, and where they arose. Also, according to the Y'hog timeline there were several Oltec, and Neathar nations in northern Davania. Finally, it must be mentioned that the Lhomarrians migrated to Lhomarr. Since these would have existed for some time beforehand, they must be accounted for. Thus the paragraph should now read: "By 10,000 BC the Wurm Glacial Period had come to an end. The Northern Continent, the Cradle of Human Civilisation, was slowly emerging from the long period of barbarism. The Brute-Men, a race of Humans adapted to the frigid conditions of the glacial period, were slowly being supplanted by the more prolific and technologically successful Modern Human races, the Oltec, Neathar, Lhomarrian and Tangor peoples. The Oltecs were native to the continent of Brun, the Tangor and Lhomarrians to the continent of Skothar. The Neathar peoples originated in the harsh arctic region that connected the two continents, the "Frosthaven Land Bridge". During this time several tribes of Oltec and Neathar humans had wandered towards the southwest, and they ultimately settled along the northern coast of Davania. Many Lhomarrians migrated south during this time to escape conflicts with the Tangor , and ended up on the island continent of Lhomarr, where they began a meteoric rise. The Dwarves, an offshoot of the Brute-Men race, lived in the hills and mountains of the continent of Brun; they were not, at this time, a subterranean race. By this time they had already domesticated the goat and the dog. Giants were still active in Brun in that day, though their Golden Age was long passed; except for the Kingdom of Gandhar in the northern "Dawn Territories", there were no organised Giantish realms that had survived the glaciers. [Humans were in the Palaeolithic stage; Dwarves and Giants were in the Mesolithic stage, having long-forgotten their great glories of the past; some groups of Giants had maintained a Bronze Age level of technology, but they were for the most part xenophobic and isolated]." Now, the second paragraph discusses the initial placements of cultures on Davania. Given that, according to the Y'hog timeline, small Oltec and Neathar tribes had wandered to Davania, these must be mentioned. Also, the Lhomarrians who migrated south advanced quickly, moreso than humans elsewhere on Mystara. Finally, the Carnifex of Y'hog were beginning to become active in the region circa BC 8250, and they must be accounted for. Thus, the second paragraph should read: "The Southern Continent was even more active in the renewal following the glaciation. Ordana, an Immortal of the Sphere of Time, purged several clans of Yuan-Ti of their Serpentine nature, and from this core of beings formed the Elven race. The Elves inhabited the forests in the southwestern section of Davania, along with numerous groups of Faeries (Sidhe, Sprites, Pixies, etc). The Enduks inhabited the north-western section of Davania, where they were slowly building a civilisation under the patronage of the Immortal Ixion. Their land was also home to many of the other creations of the Serpentines, such as Shedu, Lammassu and Sphinxes. Towards the end of this period, a degenerate branch of the Carnifex, based on an island called Y'hegg-T'uhath (which lay between Brun and Skothar), established colonies on the "Arm of the Immortals", and the north-western coastal regions of Davania, just to the north of Enduk lands. There was enough distance between them that no contact was made at this time. The Lizard Men, Nagas and Yuan-Ti inhabited the north-eastern section of Davania, where they were dominated by the remnants of the Serpentine Empire. Just to the north of the Serpentines lay several coastal nations inhabited by the descendants of those Oltec and Neathar peoples who migrated from Brun. These nations would become Nevumm, Orimul, Suur, and Ilarnn circa BC 8300. Towards the end of this period, these nations were already under attack from the Carnifex of Y'hog. They were at peace with the Serpentines, who did not deign to attack them due to their own decadence. The Halflings (Hin) were also native to the Southern Continent, in the central regions; they had evolved from escaped proto-human slaves of the ancient Serpentine Empire (successor to the Carnifex Tyranny). East of Davania lay the island continent of Lhomarr, where the Lhomarrians began a meteoric rise to power. [Elves were in the Chalcolithic stage (Copper and Stone), as were the Enduks; the Lizard Men and Serpentines were in the Iron Age, but were quite sedentary; the Carnifex of Y'hog and their minions were Bronze Age; the Hin were in the Mesolithic; the Lhomarrians of Lhomarr had reached the Bronze Age by the end of this period, while the other human nations in Davania were Chalcolithic]. - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #182 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, March 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 183 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Summary Timeline for Littonia] [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (8,000 - 6,000 BC) [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (6,000 - 5,500 BC) [MYSTARA] - A note [MYSTARA] - back to classic fantasy Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:57:49 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Summary Timeline for Littonia] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Summary Timeline for Littonia Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:03:23 -0500 Here is the summary timeline forthe history of modern Littonia: Summary Timeline: (DMs only!) BC 3200: The Valefolk settle in the western reaches of Thonia, away from other large population centres. They live off of the land and the sea. BC 3000: The Great Rain of Fire. Blackmoor explodes, shifting Mystara on its axis. The region inhabited by the Valefolk becomes much colder; they migrate west over the sea of what will become Alphatia. BC 2900: The Valefolk are driven from their new homes by the indigenous Yanifey, who are trying to adapt to their changed climate and do not wish to share their scarce resources with the newcomers. The Valefolk then migrate west again, this time to the Great Bay region in what will become Norwold. BC 2500: By this time the Valefolk have expanded their settlements along the coasts, from the modern Heldannic Territories in the south to areas north of the Great Bay region. Higher population concentrations are found around what the northern Valefolk call the Gaudava River, which has rich soils and a milder climate than the surrounding region. This milder region is blessed with dense forests and ample water. All other areas are still too cool for intensive farming and settlement. Also around this time the first Antalians come across the sea from Skothar, and settle in what will become the Northern Reaches, as well as further inland. They are more warlike than the Valefolk, and they easily displace those living near them in the south. By this time lack of communication among the various Valefolk settlements has produced many variations in dialect and culture. Those in the north begin to call themselves Litoniesu, while those in the south call themselves Lietuvas, though collectively they are referred to as the Littonians. The Lietuvas are driven further north by the Antalians. BC 2400: No more Lietuvan settlements exist south of the Great Bay; they have been either destroyed, or conquered. Many fleeing Lietuvans settle north of the Litoniesu. BC 1993: Frost Giants, led by Ulf One-Eye, storm out of the island of Frosthaven to the north and begin conquering the lands of the Litoniesu and Lietuvans. Within a few years they are all enslaved. Ulf founds the realm of Nordenheim. A reign of terror begins. BC 1944: The great Frost Giant citadel of Høgborg is constructed by slave labour. Many slaves died horribly in the construction. BC 1722: The Antalian civilization is destroyed by the humanoid hordes of Loark, ravaging much of Norwold in the process. Some southern regions of Nordenheim are attacked as well. The giants allow the humanoids to brutalize the Litoniesu living in the area, and turn back only those humanoids who threaten their own assets and lives. BC 1623: Namejs is born in the village of Valka. BC 1601: Namejs is falsely accused of being a rebel by a countryman. As a punishment, Namejs is forced to watch the destruction of his home and family. In a rage, he kills the giant responsible for this act, and this act is witnessed by other Littonians. An uprising, led by Namejs, begins. BC 1593: The Battle of Gaudavpils is fought, in which many Frost Giants are killed by Namejs' rebels. This is the culmination of years of raids and assassinations that have demoralized the giants of Nordenheim. Hearing news of this victory, slaves across the realm rise up in rebellion. BC 1592: Namejs and his rebels storm the citadel of Høgborg, killing Ulf and many others. Hearing of the death of their leader, and of the widespread rebellions, the remaining giants grab what they can and retreat to Frosthaven. Høgborg is destroyed, and the Namejs proclaims the birth of the kingdom of Littonia. BC 1559: Namejs dies. His eldest son, Guntis, becomes the second king of Littonia, but his ambitions do not extend to ruling the nation. He is more concerned about his own clan than the goings-on of the nation as a whole. Many of the local clan leaders no longer recognize the authority of the king. Littonia fragments into many smaller kingdoms. Namejs has in fact embarked upon a quest for Immortality on the Path of the Dynast. During his many adventures after becoming king, he received the patronage of Diulanna, who admired his bravery and desire to serve his people. She shows his a means to travel through time to aid his people, as prescribed by that Path. BC 1500: This period marks the beginning of a series of wars between the petty kingdoms scattered across the north. No leader is strong enough to unify the various realms, though outside threats, such as the occasional Frost Giant or Antalian raid, allow the Littonians to unify briefly. Once any threat passes, coalitions fall apart, and wars begin once more. BC 1362: The Realm of Lietuvos is formed by Lietuvan leaders who wish to rule their own nation. The Littonian ruling line is now too weak to do anything about it. Forty years of warfare between the Litoniesu and the Lietuvans begins. BC 1322: After 40 years of war, Lietuvos collapses into anarchy. Large stretches of countryside have been emptied as people flee south and west to start new lives, or die at the hands of their neighbours. The Litoniesu kingdoms are also weakened by the wars, and many fall victim to sporadic humanoid raids from the southwest. This marks the beginning of a dark age for the Littonians, which lasts centuries. BC 1200: A great force of Frost Giants attempts to invade once more, hoping to re-establish Nordenheim. They are repulsed, ironically at the ruins of Høgborg, but many towns and villages north of the Gaudava River are destroyed. The Lietuvan kingdoms suffer far more than those of the Litoniesu, since they are further north. BC 1100: By this time the Littonians had expanded south to the Great Bay once more, as well as west to the Icereach Range. The resident Antalians are too disorganized to put up an effective resistance, and they had regressed into a dark age since the destruction of their culture at the hands of Loark's horde. These resettled regions are still thinly-populated, as the soils are generally too poor to support intensive farming, though the climate is much warmer since the Littonians first came to Brun. Despite these advances, the Littonians' hold is tenuous at best. BC 1000: To the south, Nithians invade and conquer the Antalian communities. Many are enslaved and taken to Davania, where they will eventually become the Thyatian, Kerendan, Hattian, and Hinterlander tribes. Some Antalians manage to escape, and flee northwards. These movements displace the southern Littonians, who in turn return to their original lands further north. BC 800: Those Antalians to the south who survived the Nithian onslaught slowly evolve into the modern Heldannic people. Littonian lands by this time are once again those lands north of the Great Bay and east of the Icereach Range. BC 650: Several raids from the Heldannic peoples happen by this time, as they move northwards into modern Norwold. BC 161: A boy named Karlis is born in the village of Nevmala, the first son of a local clan leader. BC 142: Karlis becomes ruler of Nevmala. BC 140: Karlis dreams about the Battle of Gaudavpils. After the battle ends, Namejs approaches him, and urges him to restore Littonia. Namejs is in fact using magical means to communicate with Karlis, who is in fact his descendant. Over the next several weeks, Namejs visits Karlis in dreams and instructs him in the arts of organized warfare. BC 139: Having learned all he can, Karlis raises an army, and proceeds to bring the various Litoniesu and Lietuvan kingdoms back into the fold. BC 137: The powerful Litoniesu kingdom of Livonja, centred on the coastal town of Gaudavpils, is conquered. BC 128: The Battle of Siaiulai is fought. Karlis' armies win, and the most powerful Lietuvan kingdom is conquered. The remaining kingdoms, realizing that they cannot stand up to the might of this new warlord, submit to his authority. Karlis is crowned king of Littonia within weeks, and he proclaims a new era for his nation. Gaudavpils is named the capital of Littonia. BC 122: Karlis dies, but he had left behind him a strong succession. He is revered as Karlis the Unifier. By this time many villages and town come to see themselves as Littonian, rather than Litoniesu and Lietuvan. Uldis, the eldest son of Karlis, ascends to the throne. BC 115: The Saamari people migrate east over the Icereach Range, displacing Littonian farmers living in the western borderlands of Littonia. Uldis hears of this, and raises an army to reclaim the western lands. BC 110: The first of several battles is fought against the Saamari. Like the others to follow, it is inconclusive. BC 105: Uldis dies in battle. Maris, his second son, assumes the throne. Seeing Frost Giants gathering to the north and Heldannic warriors to the south, he immediately makes overtures to the Saamari leader for peace. The Treaty of Valmiera is the result, in which both peoples renounce aggression against the other and Littonia abandons all claims to the western lands. Kaarjala, the nation of the Saamari, is formed as a result. BC 103: Maris bolsters Littonia's defences along its northern and southern frontiers, in order to hold back the Frost Giants and the Heldanners. BC 98: A large force of Frost Giants manages to break through Littonia's northern defences and cause a great deal of damage. BC 12: The towns of Valmiera and Nevmala are destroyed in a raid by Frost Giants. AC 0: Elsewhere, the first emperor of Thyatis is crowned. AC 20: The towns of Valmiera and Nevmala are rebuilt. AC 300: Contact is made with the halflings and elves who have settled to the south, in what is now Norwold. Peaceful relations ensue. AC 630: The Vaarana arrive in Kaarjala from the west, telling tales of humanoid hordes. AC 640: The Battle of White Bear River is fought. The humanoid hordes are turned back by a coalition of Littonians, Kaarjalans, Vaarana, halflings, and elves. Namejs is also present at the battle, having travelled there through magical means as part of his quest for Immortality. AC 870: An attempted invasion by Frost Giants takes place - Siaiulai, Valka, Dundaga, and Silute are looted. AC 985: The settlement of Alpha is founded by the Alphatians to the south. The Littonians make contact with the Alphatians, and sign treaties of friendship. Nothing else comes of this. AC 992: Ericall is named king of Norwold. AC 996: Uldis VI becomes king of Littonia. AC 1000: The present day, most Gazetteers are also set in this era. AC 1016: Having weathered the Wrath of the Immortals by staying out of the conflict entirely, Uldis VI considers joining the newly-established NACE in the hopes that it will bring his nation into the world. - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:00:26 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (8,000 - 6,000 BC) ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Synchronizing Ancient History (8,000 - 6,000 BC) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:45:39 -0500 8000 - 6000 BC Now, the fourth paragraph mentions the changes that had been happening over the past centuries. The Enduks were rising in power, and the Lizard Men revolted against their Serpentine masters. To make this consistent with materials being generated concerning Cynidicea, you might wish to add that, during the Lizard Man rebellions, a large band of them migrated north to south-eastern Brun, where the realm of Mogreth would be founded. Another element worth mentioning is the sinking of both Lhomarr and Y'hegg-T'uhath by BC 7000, which created power vacuums in Davania. Also, the Lizard Man kingdoms that were established during the rebellions were also situated on the lands of the former human nations, all of which had been destroyed during the wars between Lhomarr and the Carnifex of Y'hog. Those human nations had achieved Bronze Age technology, though some Oltecs from Orimul managed to flee to Brun before the total destruction of their nation. Remaining Lhomarrian colonies in what is now the Lost Valley and the Vulcanian Peninsula maintained their Bronze Age technology, but they were soon warring with each other, as well as roving Lizard Man barbarians. By BC 6000, only the former colonies in the Lost Valley region still existed, and these soon regressed into the Stone Age. With this in mind, the paragraph should now read: "The Elves in the far south had not changed overly much over the last 2000 years; they lived in a state of harmony with their Faerie brethren, their homeland a veritable paradise. In the west the Enduks continued their stately climb to civilisation, having domesticated various plants and animals (notably potatoes and the Llama); they had also built great stone towers from which they were better able to view the sun and the stars, as astrology had become a major part of their faith by this time. After BC 7000, with the sinking of both Lhomarr and Y'hegg-T'uhath, there were no obstacles to the northward expansion of the Enduks in northwestern Davania, and so they increased their holdings along the coasts. Around this time the Lizard Men rebelled against their Serpentine masters, and the Serpentine Empire fell into anarchy. Groups of renegade Lizard Men formed their own kingdoms throughout northeastern Davania, notably in the "Aryptian Basin", centred around a slowly drying lake. Some kingdoms were also established in the lands that had once been Nevumm, Orimul, Suur, and Ilarnn, whose Bronze Age human inhabitants had been wiped out during the wars between Y'hog and Lhomarr. Other Lizard Men migrated to south-eastern Brun, where the kingdom of Mogreth would be founded. The Nagas had also set up their own kingdom in the far-eastern section of Davania (from "Yasuko Tribal Lands" to the south and east); the Yuan-Ti remained loyal to their Serpentine masters. The Hin, isolated from the rest of the continent by expanding deserts and massive mountains, developed slowly, enjoying a peaceful, near idyllic state. Finally, some Oltec inhabitants of the nation of Orimul managed to flee during the Lhomarr-Y'hog wars to the modern Atruaghin Clans, where they made contact with local Oltec tribespeople there. In the Lost Valley and Vulcanian Peninsula regions, some Lhomarrian colonies managed to avoid the wars, but without their motherland they soon fought amongst themselves, accelerating their decline. By BC 6000, only the Lost Valley settlements remained, and these had reverted to the Chalcolithic. [Elves remained in the Chalcolithic; Enduks were in the Early Bronze Age; the Serpentines remained in the Iron Age, and their rebel Lizard Men servants had fallen mostly into the Stone Age, while the Lizard Men civilisations around Lake Arypt had maintained a Bronze Age technology, though the Mogreth Lizard Men had reverted to the Paleolithic; the Hin had entered the Chalcolithic; and the Lhomarrians had reverted to the Chalcolithic]." - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:01:03 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Synchronizing Ancient History (6,000 - 5,500 BC) ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:26:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #183 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 2eef7072788ab4d91b1de02650518cd0 To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Synchronizing Ancient History (6,000 - 5,500 BC) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:46:35 -0500 6000 - 5500 BC The first paragraph here describes events on Brun during this period. It mentions the rise of the Oltecs, and the expansion of the Dwarves, among other things. You should add that survivors from the realm of Orimul on Davania had landed in Brun and had some thriving colonies by this time. They made contact with local Oltec tribes, and shared some of their knowledge concerning agriculture and metal working. Thus the Oltecs of Brun gained knowledge from both the Orimulians and the Dwarves. The Orimulians had lost much of their knowledge by this time, and they were quickly absorbed by the local Oltecs. This paragraph should now read: "By 6000 BC the Oltecs had begun to use beaten copper and gold, and had domesticated several plants, notably Maize (they learned this process from trade with the Dwarves). Also, various colonies that had been established after the destruction of Orimul during the Lhomarr-Y'hog wars had come into contact with local Oltec tribes, and had shared their knowledge of bronze-working and agriculture, though much had been forgotten. The Orimulians were soon absorbed into the local Oltecs, though their teachings remained alongside those of the Dwarves. The Neathar and Tangor peoples were still hunters and gatherers, living in light plains and forests. Their technology continued to develop apace, however, as the need for more land became even more important as their populations grew. The Tangor had begun to domesticate the Aurochs, and both cultures had domesticated the dog. The Dwarves had discovered bronze (either independently or from the Giants), and with a burgeoning population, many Dwarven clans began migrating out from their ancient homeland. A fair number of Dwarven clans reached Skothar, where they settled in and around the mountains in the north, where the only major tin deposits on the continent were found. The Giants continued their simple existence, now and again warring with the Dwarves who would try to steal their tin, bronze and gold. [The Oltecs had leapt into the Chalcolithic, while the Neathar and Tangor entered the Neolithic; the Dwarves were in the Bronze Age; the Giants continued to remain fairly steady, technology wise, and several groups remained in the Stone Age out of sheer stubbornness]." If you wish to combine the information from both the Ages of Blackmoor and the Y'hog timeline, you should also ignore the statement that Davania is largely uninhabited (since this is not so if you use Mystaros' timeline) in the summary timeline in the Y'hog article. Thus, the entry for BC 6000 would read: "BC 6000: By this time most memories of the Carnifex, Y'hog, and Lhomarr have faded into legends, and vague ones at that. Only the remnants of the sturdiest Lhomarrian and Carnifex cities and fortresses are still recognizable for what they are, and few of those survived the wars." - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:03:28 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - A note Hello everyone! :) Just a quick explanation why the stuff on Littonia and ancient history is forwarded - I wrote these materials up on my work email account, and then sent them to my freenet account, from which I sent them to you (they don't allow newsgroups and mailing lists at work - the tyrants!! :-) Anyhow, I figured I owe you guys an explanation, just in case any of you are wondering. Hope you enjoy the stuff! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:32:24 EST From: Flindor Subject: [MYSTARA] - back to classic fantasy Sombody wrote about getting back to classic fantasy D&D and that's what I ended up doing. One of the first adventures I came across was "isle of the abbey" in dungeon #34. The author wanted to write a good adventure only using the barest materials - the original boxed set. This influenced me to start a campaign using classic modules and themes - relying more on my wits than rulebooks etc. Not to say that you can't use your wits elsewhere but I find that you have to use them a little more with a "simpler" game like OD&D. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:22:25 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar In a message dated 98-03-19 13:50:32 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >This is of course not true. THERE ARE Ethengarian wizards. TThey are called hakomons and are feared and respected on the Sea of Grass. (If Glantri see them on the same way is not known to me.) I would imagine that most Glantrians see them as foolish, superstitious savages. Those taboos that hakomons must adopt would strike any Glantrian wizard as silly and perhaps lead them to think that there was a clerical aspect to their power. Of course there would be one exception to this general contempt -- the soldiers of the Glantrian army would definitely respect the prowess of the hakomons as foes in combat. They would hate them, but they would respect them. But I did steal an interesting bit from _Oriental Adventures_ for my campaign. The following equivalences seem to work out fairly well: Wu Jen = Hakomon Korobokuru = Dwarf barbarian Since there has been some cooperation between the Ethengarians and some Rockhome dwarves, I posited that a few Dwarves actually managed to become hakomons. Naturally, they were rather enthusiastic to show off their new abilities in battle against the Glantrians.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:22:23 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar In a message dated 98-03-19 13:50:32 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >The author obviously believed that Ethengar was the opposite tto Glantri. That means: Glantri has wizards, but no clerics, and Ethengar has clerics, but no wizards. Ylaruam would work better here, definitely. And if Glantrians were to set up an "underground railroad" to smuggle wizards out of Ylaruam, the complications it would cause for Darokin would make the entire operation quite interesting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:05:03 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... In a message dated 98-03-19 20:08:08 EST, strawberry@jamm.com writes: >Isn't the Shaman was a 'Clerical' type Class? Are there any mage spells in the Ethingar Gaz? >What about the Ylaruam Gaz -- are those spells Clerial or Magical? If you are looking only for Mage spells as opposed to Cleric spells, then you can ignore Ethengar and Ylaruam for now. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:05:02 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D In a message dated 98-03-19 15:44:04 EST, strawberry@jamm.com writes: >Other References I am aware of but can't decide whether II think they should/shouldn't have additional Mage Spells: * Karameikos No new spells. >* Northern Reaches A few new Cleric spells for Clerics of Northern Immortals. >* Tall Tales of the Wee Folk Several new spells. >* Ylaruam A few new spells for Dervishes. >* Ethingar Several new spells for Shamans. >* Top Ballista Several new spells as racial abilities. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:22:09 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >References I expect to contain additional Mage Spells: * Galantri (no kidding, eh?) The only new spells in GAZ3 are Radiance spells (unless you also count the abilities of the Seven Crafts). ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:28:40 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Mystaros wrote: >Just check your helpful Turkish phrasebook :) >It will also give you some clues as to the naming traditions of the OTHER Hulean Immortals IMC... This has aroused my curiosity. When did Hule first get some Turkish names? I mean, 'Hule' doesn't necessarily sound Turkish. Was it Bruce Heard who first made up some Turkish names for Hule in his Princess Ark articles? Or were there already Turkish names in the old Master modules? ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:16:28 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D At 12:30 19-03-98 -0800, Jenni wrote: >* Irendi Islands There are two spells in this GAZ. The first one is Doze (bake a bread and enchant it, produces a dozen slices and if eaten you fall asleep for several turns) and the second is Mau Mau bane (collects several herbs, enchant them and blow a through a pipe. This cures anyone afflicted with the Mau Mau disease and cleanses the area for a whole day). There is no mentioning of the spell levels and I can't recall if they're magic-user or clerig spells, but it is mentioned that they are "old" magic and thats why they are so difficult to cast. By the way there also a bunch of Alphatian fire mages in Ierendi and an island with some very special druids. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:13:40 EST From: Mystaros Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues In a message dated 98-03-20 04:46:16 EST, you write: << This has aroused my curiosity. When did Hule first get some Turkish names? I mean, 'Hule' doesn't necessarily sound Turkish. Was it Bruce Heard who first made up some Turkish names for Hule in his Princess Ark articles? Or were there already Turkish names in the old Master modules? IIRC, it was in the Princess Ark stories that the "Turkish" aspects of the Hulean language and culture came forth; mostly language via place names and titles, but the culture was somewhat similar and the rest, extrapolated... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:24:35 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 1 Here's my version of who the Ispan people (the modern Espans) are, where they come from, how their culture evolved, etc. I've added in several factors that I've adopted from this list, including the idea of an M-Cuba (two methods of this, actually, only one of which is mentioned in this history). Without any further ado... The History of the Ispan People by Mystaros Pandius 19th of Thaumont, 1016 AC Era Time Period Genesis 248 AC The Exiles 248 - 267 AC The First Centuries 267 - 489 AC The Dark Years 489 - 642 AC The Years of War 642 - 728 AC A New Land, a New People 728 - 794 AC The Ispan Golden Age 794 - 861 AC The Years of Unrest 861 - 893 AC The Great Journey 893 - 900 AC The New World 900 AC to the Present Genesis (248 AC) The genesis of the Ispan people can be most directly attributed to the darkest period of the reign of the Von Stregger Dynasty in the Empire of Thyatis in the 3rd century AC. While Karolus I ("The Great", ruled 157 - 176 AC) was true to his ancient and noble lineage, his son, Liutprand I ("The Bard", ruled 176 - 189 AC), followed more in the tradition of his mother's forebears, the Von Hendriks clan of the south eastern Hattian coast. Unfortunately, Liutprand's insanity was hereditary, as both of his sons, Wulfgang I ("The Terrible", ruled 189 - 231 AC) and Karolus II ("The Destroyer", ruled 231 - 238 AC) exhibited his vile tendencies. Many were relieved upon the death of Karolus II, as it was felt that his son, Liutprand II, resembled his great-grandfather in spirit if not in visage. And for the first decade of his rule they were proven correct, as he reestablished the rule of law and reaffirmed the power of the Imperial Bureaucracy across the mainland (see "The Chronicles of Imperial Thyatian History" by Strathos of Terentias, Volume II [the unexpurgated version, of course]). Unfortunately, the rule of Liutprand II can be likened unto the month of Ambyrmont: "In like a drake, out like a dragon" as the saying goes. His "Declaration of the Purity of the Imperial Peoples", passed down in Eirmont of 247 AC, is regarded as the ultimate sign of his mental deterioration, or, as we now know, of the influence held over him by his daughter, Brunhilda ("The Enchantress", born 214 AC, died 267 AC(?)). The reaction to the Declaration across the Empire is, of course, too well known to delve into here, though a mention of it's relation to the Kerendan settlement of the western and southern highlands of the Alasiyan Basin is warranted. The Kerendans, of course, reacted to the Declaration with no less revulsion than their cousins to the east, the Thyatians (not to mention the reactions of the non-Thyatian peoples of the Empire). While the Thyatian reaction was more subtle and hence, underground (mostly due to the three Hattian Legions stationed in the City of Thyatis), the Kerendans openly disavowed the Emperor and his Declaration, closed the gates of their city to his representatives, and girded for war. Liutprand's reply came swiftly in 448 AC, when four Hattian Legions engaged the Kerendans in the fields before the city of Kerendas. The Kerendans were far too trusting in the ability of their cavalry to overtake the Hattian foot soldiers; the Hattians outnumbered the Kerendans three to one, and they were reinforced by several centuries of auxiliaries and foreign mercenaries (mostly Caerda and Dunael, though there were said to have been no few Norse and even a company of Nuari at Liutprand's disposal). Liutprand himself oversaw the battle, and with the aid of his daughter and her "acolytes" (sycophant Alphatian outcasts, believed to have been from the same cult that founded New Alphatia on Trader's Isle), the battle was over in short order, and the cream of Kerendan chivalry died on the field that day. The "Black Wind" overtook the Duchy of Kerendas for the next decade (248 - 258 AC), as Liutprand's forces determined to scour the Duchy of any who were thought to be in the least disloyal to the new order. Entire towns and villages were put to the sword, women and children of ancient noble lines were crucified along the side of the road like common criminals, and fields and forests were burned. Thousands set out from their homes seeking refuge; hundreds made the crossing over the Altan Tepes into the Alasiyan Basin, where they settled, broken and near destitute, amid the dry, grassy slopes, near the small village that is known today as Ctesiphon. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #183 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:28:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #184 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 5fb2d3524bff2b17da76571cccf330d7 mystara-digest Friday, March 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 184 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 4 [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 5 [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 7/End [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 3 [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 2 [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 6 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:33:19 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... At 01:16 PM 3/20/98 +0100, Lille My wrote: *** Irendi Islands >There are two spells in this GAZ. The first one is Doze (bake a bread and enchant it, produces a dozen slices and if eaten you fall asleep for several turns) and the second is Mau Mau bane (collects several herbs, enchant them and blow a through a pipe. This cures anyone afflicted with the Mau Mau disease and cleanses the area for a whole day). There is no mentioning of the spell levels and I can't recall if they're magic-user or clerig spells, but it is mentioned that they are "old" magic and thats why they are so difficult to cast. Really? Do you happen to remember under which Island these 'spells' are listed? I have to admit I only scanned my copy of the Irendi gaz looking for an obvious spell list, so if these are 'unusual' that would explain why I missed them. They still may not be appropriate, but I guess its worth a look-see ... I'll have to peruse that Gaz more closely unless you can give me a page number :-) >By the way there also a bunch of Alphatian fire mages in Ierendi and an island with some very special druids. Yes, I know. However, I didn't notice any lists of spells that the fire mages had that were different from the regular Mage spells. Thanks for the additional information, Lille! Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:55:58 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rules question In a message dated 98-03-19 13:39:30 EST, you write: << hmmm....i havent done it this way. My players and I decided that the roll would be maid against the wraith as, in this instance, you are simply trying to overcome the control of the undead. And, as the control is comeing directly from the wraith, then the lich actually has nothing to do with the control being exerted. To put it another way, the control is effectively modular. The control exerted by the lich actually only has an indirect effect on the skeleton. Jason >> Okay I see your reasoning. I chose the lich' because it would be higher to roll successfully than the wraith. I see no problem with using either the wraith or the lich. Probably depends on the xp lvl of the cleric. Still, there is room for thought. Interesting subject really. Thanks for bringing this up Fabrizio. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:18:06 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 4 The Years of War (642 - 728 AC) The ascension of the first Emperor of the Oesterpolitian Dynasty in 642 AC heralded a new era for the Empire of Thyatis as well as for the Espadi of the Alasiyani Basin. The Oesterpolitian Dynasty, of course, was based out of the great citadel at Redstone (hence the Dynasty also being labeled the "Redstone Dynasty"). The emphasis of the military activities of the martial Redstone Emperors was on the continual expansion of the Thyatian Empire at the expense of the Alphatians, primarily through the control of the nations of the Isle of Dawn but also through the domination of the Continental territories, specifically the Northern Reaches and the Alasiyan Basin. These policies were felt quite readily in the immediate increase in and intensity of the Alasiyani Conflicts. This proved to be the ultimate undoing of the Espadi in Alasiya. Four generations of Espadi warriors were ground between the Thyatian and Alphatian forces. The increasing hostilities greatly affected the relationship between the Espadi and the Alasiyani Nomads. Though the two societies had been allies in the early centuries, and neutral nonbelligerents during the intervening years, the changing pressures placed on them by outside forces caused the two cultures to violently clash. The increasing competition for grazing lands, watering holes and pasturage ultimately led the Espadi into the arms of the Thyatians, who, acting as their patrons, were better able to guard the Espadi interests in the Alasiyan Basin. This alliance was cemented in 718 AC, during the reign of Alexian VI ("The Golden", ruled 713 - 721 AC). The Espadi elected one of their chiefs as their speaker, and he in turn was anointed "Lord of the Espadi and the Alasiyani Marches" by the Emperor's son and heir, Leonidas (later Emperor Zendrolion VII, "The Hunter", ruled 721 - 732 AC). A majority of the Alasiyani Nomad clans reacted to the alliance by openly allying with the Alphatians; this spelt the doom of the Espadi presence in Alasiya. The decade following the alliance between the Espadi and the Thyatians saw the fiercest and bloodiest fighting that the region had seen since the days of the Nithian Empire. Entire clans of Espadi and Alasiyani were extirpated. Towns were razed to the ground; slat was sown into the land that nothing would grow. Events culminated in the Battle of Hedjazi in 728 AC, where the Thyatian and Espadi forces were decimated by an Alphatian army that is said to have consisted of a thousand Alphatian Battle Mages. The leaders of the Espadi were slain to a man; the bones of an entire generation of Espadi warriors lay in the sun before the gates of Hedjazi. The Alasiyani wasted no time in exacting vengeance for decades of Thyatian and Espadi atrocities. Entire Espadi clans disappeared into the wastes. Those that remained fled to the south and east, to the Thyatian colonies of the coast, where they found shelter from the wrath of the Nomads. Zendrolion VII, known for his honor as well as for his tendency toward overindulgence, aided his broken allies by granting them lands across the Sea of Dawn, on the Isle of Dawn, in and around the region of the Tigris Plain, the area of the modern Ispan Domains [Provincia Septentriona, north of the forests and hills and south of the Province of Kendach]. Less than 12,000 of the 20,000 Espadi that were tallied in the census taken after the alliance in 718 AC survived to reach the coastlands. 8,000 took ship from the ports of Cubia and Tameronikas, while 4,000 remained in the towns and villages of the coast. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:19:07 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 5 A New Land, a New People (728 - 794 AC) The lands that the Espadi were granted on the Isle of Dawn consisted of verdant plains and rugged hills. These plains had long been ignored by other peoples as being too barren for habitation; the many fertile lands of the Isle of Dawn were far more inviting for settlement. The Espadi, however, regarded the plains as being the next thing to paradise compared to the barren wastes and hills that had been their home. The clans spread out across the range of their territory and began to build their lives in the new lands. Naturally, the plains were not entirely devoid of settlements; there were the ranches and estates of Thyatian immigrants as well as several trading posts set up by the Amancerian peoples of the coasts. The first ten years saw some difficulty in dealing with these natives, but they were soon won over by the Espadi, who needed all manner of products from the merchants, as they had to adapt to the change in subsistence. They needed plows to break the ground, seeds to plant, more horses, more sheep, metal for the forge, wine for the table. Many Amancerian families moved into the region as the Espadi settled in. The region also experienced a minor influx of Thyatian immigrants once the fertility of the region was proven by the Espadi settlers. The population of the Espadi Domains, as they were then known, almost doubled to reach 15,000 within the first 10 years, mostly through inmigration, partially through high birth rates. The Domains themselves consisted of 15 Baronies spread out over 24,000 square miles. Each of the 15 Barons participated in a council that elected a speaker, who oversaw the government of the Domains together with an Imperial Governor (the ArchBaron, as he was called, also acted as the Senator for the Domains). Even though the Espadi held most of the power and the land, their culture would surely have been overwhelmed by further migration of Thyatians and Amancerians had it not been for a very remarkable coincidence that came to light in 740 AC. Interlude: The Elves of the Shadow Coast South of the Tigris Plains, across the length and breadth of the Shadow Coast, the land was carpeted with a dense forest, known on the Continent as the Forest of Shadows. This grand forest, actually an amalgamation of several regional forests, was the home from time immemorial to two races. One, the Caerda, were a Human people, and had slowly been assimilated into the Amancerian population of the coastlands (save in the far south of the land). The other natives were the Elves, descendants of the ancient disaster that overtook the highlands in the 18th century BC. Somehow, though long and terrible tribulation, these Elves had migrated underground, beneath the very Sea of Dawn itself, and arrive in the forested lands of the Isle of Dawn some three centuries later. The journey had taken a terrible toll on the Elves, and they were a shattered people. These Elves kept to themselves for a thousand years, and were little more than a myth to the peoples of the Isle of Dawn until the 7th century BC, when they first contacted the Alphatians of the Kingdom of Hamanziera after the fall of the Nithian Empire. Even then, they contributed next to nothing to the world about them, keeping their own council and acting only to defend their section of the Forest of Shadows, with seven clans claiming an area of some 10,000 square miles. It would be another thousand years before the Elves of the Forest of Shadows sallied forth into the world about them, and then, of all places, it would be to the City of Thyatis during the height of the Alasiyani Kerendan cultural craze. The Elves, long in search of some form of identity, a cultural wellspring, so to speak, were instantly enamored of the exotic nature of the Alasiyani Kerendan culture. The Elves that returned to the Forest of Shadow brought with them every element of Alasiyani Kerendan culture they could find: clothing, language, jewelry, architecture, culinary arts, weaponry, poetry and literature, pottery... the list of artifacts was endless. Several Elves even journeyed to the lands of the Alasiyani Kerendans and studied them for a decade or two. Over the intervening centuries the Elves of the Forest of Shadow had adapted and adopted every aspect of the culture of the Alasiyani Kerendans to their own folkways, and created for themselves a new identity (see "Cultural Plasticity and Elven Evolution" in the Winter 989 AC edition of the Pandius Press Anthropological Journal for more detail concerning this case of Elven cultural revolution). While the Elves of the Forest of Shadows thereafter still kept themselves apart from the nations about them, they had reinvigorated their own society with the culture of the Alasiyani Kerendans. Once the culture was fully assimilated, the Elves maintained the society that they developed, and cherished it. Thus, the Espadi were able to inherit the culture of their forefathers three hundred years after the end of their golden age. A New Land, a New People (728 - 794 AC), continued... Thus, in 740 AC, the Espadi were utterly flabbergasted when they encountered a group of Elves that spoke the language that they knew only through hard-kept poetry and tales. At first the Espadi didn't know what to think of their "Elven cousins", as, while they shared many similarities, the gulf that had developed between the two cultures in the intervening centuries had grown great. The Elves, for their part, welcomed the Espadi into their hearts and their lands, and were in awe of the developments that the Espadi had made over the centuries. For of course, once the Elves had adopted the ways of the Alasiyani Kerendans, their culture did not change one iota. There were, quite naturally, several Elves who stilled lived that remembered the first days of the cultural assimilation, and there were even a handful that recalled their days studying the ancestors of the Espadi in Alasiya. These Elven elders went a long way in convincing the Espadi of the veracity of the Elves claim to cultural kinship, as the elders described the lands of the Espadi and their ancient patrimonies better than any of their own bards could do. The encounter between the two peoples sparked a cultural renaissance; the Espadi regained much of their former glory through the contributions of the Elves and the Elven culture again went through a revolution, adopting the more passionate and militaristic mores of the Espadi. The mixing of the cultures also accompanied a mixing of the people, as the Espadi and the Elves began to intermarry. Within a (human) generation the population of the Espadi Domains again more than doubled. A large minority of population had Elvish blood. The minor villages that had first sprung up around the Baronial seats grew into towns. Another Human generation and the region witnessed the incredible evolution and the true flowering of the Espadi culture. For by the end of the 8th century AC the Espadi no longer existed as such. In the place of the old, semi-barbaric society there now flourished an incredible hybrid society, as divergent from that of the Espadi who settled the region 70 years before as the Espadi of that time had been from their forefathers, the Alasiyani Kerendans. The Espadi, through the exchange and assimilation of the culture of the Elves, evolved into an elegant if firm, cultured if not savage, beautiful if not deadly society. Their language softened considerably through Elven influence, and acquired a poetical, lyrical quality. They no longer regarded themselves as the Espadi; they had now become the Ispans. The Ispan culture, like that of their forebears, the Alasiyani Kerendans, was exotic and mysterious. Their culture, a mixture of the ancient Alasiyani Kerendan and the Elven, became all the rage once again in the City of Thyatis. All the noble men wore the Ispan Moustache and learned to wield the Estoque, also known as the Ispan Rapier, the elegant offspring of the Espadi Long Sword. All the noble women learned the Ispan dances; some bearing the stately elegance of the Elves, some the passionate savagery of the Espadi, some a wondrous mixture of both. The ispan Elves, as the Elves of the Forest of Shadow were now known, were much in demand at the grand balls and fetes, for they were known as the best storytellers and dancers of all. The Ispans, Human and Elven, were on the verge of a Golden Age. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:21:05 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 7/End The Years of Unrest (861 - 893 AC) The assassination of the Thyatian Emperor Lucinius V ("The Conjuror", ruled 851 - 861 AC) came as a tremendous surprise to all, for he was if not universally appreciated for his honor and intelligence, at least respected for his wisdom and diplomatic ability. The Ispans would normally have had little to fear from any change in Emperor, even under such conditions as assassination, as the succession was clear and unchallenged. But in this case, the dark deed fell right into the Ispan's laps. For the Emperor had apparently been murdered by an Ispan assassin, a personage in fact no less than that of the cousin of the Grand Duke of Ispa ola. The effects of the de Belcadiz scandal on the Ispans was as a mere zephyr compared to the hurricane that followed the assassination of the Emperor. The new Emperor, Zendrolion X ("The Strategist", ruled 861 - 872 AC), sent the Hattian Inquisition to the Grand Duchy to ferret out any co-conspirators to the assassination of his brother. The Hattian Inquisition, known for a fearsome reputation among their OWN people, ripped out the very heart of the Ispan peoples when they accused most of the Ducal family of being in on "the conspiracy against the Empire". They then began an intensive "investigation" into the activities and relationships among the noble families of Ispa ola. In time the Grand Inquisitor claimed to have acquired the written confession of the Grand Duke himself, that he had claimed to have instigated the assassination in order to install an "Ispan puppet" on the Imperial throne. The Grand Duke, however, no longer had the ability to defend himself against the Inquisition's accusations, as he had died in the throes of questioning. Ispan outrage at the Hattian offense only stirred up further Inquisitional atrocities. Ispan theories as to the duplicity of the new Emperor in his brother's murder caused the Emperor to send in three legions to "quell the insurrection". The Ispan Golden Age ended in a single month's time. Two of the legions were withdrawn in 862 AC, after the cream of Ispan chivalry was destroyed. Many of the noble families were decimated; over half were disenfranchised by the Emperor and designated persona non grata on the mainland. Most of the lands granted in 794 AC were revoked; the Ispans were forcibly removed from their lands and placed in ramshackle villages, refugee camps, really, where many starved or died of disease. Only the forests of the Elves remained inviolate (a full century of crack legionnaires went into the forest to bring back three Elven nobles; not a single legionnaire returned). Ispans were hunted like rats in the streets of the City of Thyatis; to even bear an Ispan Rapier invited a beating if not worse. Guerilla warfare became a method of survival for many, and such continued for another decade until the assassination of Zendrolion X, who, like his brother, died at the hands of an Ispan. Gabrionus III ("The Unforgiving", ruled 872 - 890 AC) lived up to his namesake. His first action after his ascension to the throne was to institute a reign of terror in the Ispan Domains that made what had gone before pale by comparison. The Ispans, for their part, upped the ante and took their guerilla warfare to Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:28:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #184 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 5fb2d3524bff2b17da76571cccf330d7 other regions of the Empire, where they inspired other peoples to rebel against the Thyatians. Minor rebellions flared up across the Isle of Dawn and even in the Archduchies of Ochalea and the Pearl Islands. The terror, however, was so successful that by 875 AC, several thousand Ispans determined that they would abandon their ancestral homes and strike out for new territory. Under the leadership of Don Sancho Estaban de la Villa Florida (now an old man), and taking what little they had left, they set out for the isle of Nueva Ispa ola in eight score and eight ships. Many others followed their example, and set out for friendlier lands, including Ierendi, Darokin and Alphatia. The reign of terror lasted for twenty years, into the reign of Gabrionus IV ("The Conqueror", ruled 890 - 913 AC). Gabrionus IV, however, was a career soldier, and had little stomach or cause for senseless terror. He called for a truce in 893 AC, as he desired to parley. He felt that the Ispans were weak enough that he could settle the issue once and for all, but that to do so would cost him more time and effort (as well as men and material) than he was willing to expend. He offered the Ispans three options. They could resettle in a newly opened Imperial Territory (such as the colonies he was experimenting with on Davania) OR they could emigrate elsewhere, out of the Thyatian AND Alphatian sphere of influence OR they could continue their insurrection and be extirpated by his legions. The Council of Barons and the Ispan people were of one mind: go elsewhere, where they could for once and always have their own land, free from imperial entanglements and influence. Recalling the tales of the Savage Coast from their childhood, the Barons convinced the Ispan people that the lands far, far to the west would be an ideal new homeland, where they could start fresh. The Great Journey (893 - 900 AC) Preparations and further negotiations took five years to complete. Hundreds of ships were prepared; the entire Ispan nation poured their remaining wealth, as well as their blood, sweat and tears into the migration. Some Ispans, less than one in three perhaps, were unconvinced, and decided to remain. Gabrionus IV accepted these remaining Ispans, and redistributed the Ispan Domains among the remaining families that swore loyalty to him (and gave him hostages), though the lands were also open for Thyatian settlement once again. Finally, all the preparations were complete, all the last treaties had been signed, and the farewells had been said. And thus, in 898 AC, the great migration of the Ispan peoples was underway. Over 20,000 souls set out on a two year trek to a distant land, there to find their destiny. But that is another story... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:17:25 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 3 The Dark Years (489 - 642 AC) Tiberion II ("The Mage Bane", ruled 489 - 510 AC) restored order to the Empire in 489 AC after destroying the last of the Alphatian Usurpers (Magnus I, "The Archmage", ruled 485 - 489 AC). Tiberion II was a Paladin in the service of Vanya, and though he was of the Second Kerendan Dynasty (of the Theostridaes branch), he had little in common with his "lost cousins" in the Alasiyan Basin, and saw their lands merely in terms of military value, as a stepping stone toward the elimination of the Alphatian Presence on the Continent. Thus, one of his first acts was to forcibly annex the Alasiyani Kerendan territories as well as the "Biazzan" valley of the Alasiyani Nomad settlers. He thus formed two new domains for the Empire: the Barony of Biazzan and the Alasiyani Marches. He had little time to do more than build several fortresses and install the Imperial Bureaucracy before he passed on to the Steel Plains of Vanya and was succeeded by his daughter, Terentia I ("The Blade of Vanya", ruled 510 - 528 AC). Fortunately for the Kerendans of the new Alasiyani Marches, Terentia was obsessed more with the theology of her faith than with the more martial aspects, and they were left again, for a short while, to their own devices. The military occupation of the Alasiyani Kerendan territories did little to change the Alasiyani Kerendan way of life per se, though Alphatian goods became scarcer as the occupying legions cracked down on the trade coming across the desert wastes. The Governor of the Marches was purely a military position, and seldom fell into hereditary control (never for more than three generations in any case). As long as the Alasiyani Kerendans paid their taxes on time and swore loyalty to the Empire (or at least, did not in any way support the Alphatian position in the north), the Governor let them be. However, the stream of settlers from the Empire that followed in the Legion's wake, unfortunately, were not as forgiving as their rulers. The new settlers of the Alasiyani Marches were a mixed group, ethnically speaking: mostly Thyatians and Hattians, some Kerendans and a smattering of Amancerians (these included many of the ancestors of the peoples now inhabiting the Principalities of Aalban and Caurenze in Glantri). Taken together, however, they could best be described as opportunists, swindlers and outright thieves. Slowly, inexorably, the new settlers began to drive the Alasiyani Kerendans from their lands. The new settlers used their knowledge of the Thyatian Legal Code, their connections with the military and civilian authorities and often simple brutality and violence to steal the Alasiyani Kerendans lands, wealth and power. More and more, as the Alasiyani Kerendans became dispossessed of their patrimonies, many of them moved into the lands on the fringe of the desert wastelands, where they found shelter among their old allies, the Alasiyani Nomads. The Alasiyani Kerendans slowly began to be assimilated by the Alasiyani Nomads, as they continued to intermarry with the Nomad clans and adopt Nomadic folkways. It was a slow process, just as the process of Alasiyani Kerendan disenfranchisement was a slow process. It took nearly 200 years, but by the end of this period the Alasiyani Kerendans were no longer regarded as Kerendans by their cousins to the south; and to be true, by that time they themselves no longer recognized any kinship with the Kerendans. By the mid seventh century, the Alasiyani Kerendans had become an entirely new people, a nomadic people like their allies, the Alasiyani Nomads, yet with some few remnants of their ancient Kerendan culture, adapted and adopted to the ways of the desert. The peoples of the Alasiyani Marches began to call them the "Espadi", which in the (then greatly divergent) dialect of the Alasiyani Kerendans meant "Longsword", for the Alasiyani Kerendans wielded a long, straight sword from horseback, while the Alasiyani Nomads wielded the Scimitar, a long, curved blade. It was during the middle of this period that the minor border clashes between the Thyatians, Alphatians and Alasiyani Nomads slowly began to increase in frequency and ferocity (ca. 500 AC). The Espadi took no small part in the growing troubles, as one of the few occupations that remained open to them was that of the mercenary. Entire mercenary companies were formed of Espadi cavalry and bowmen, and were in high demand by both the Alphatians and the Thyatians (the Alasiyani Nomads rarely, if ever hired mercenaries). The only requirement that the early Espadi mercenaries placed upon their patron (Alphatian or Thyatian), was that the Espadi would not attack Alasiyani Nomad groups,as the long history of friendship between the two was what had kept the Espadi from oblivion. This qualification, however, began to fall more and more to the wayside as time wore on and as the Espadi became more secure in their own abilities in the desert wastes. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:16:35 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 2 The Exiles (ca. 248 - 267 AC) The Kerendans were fortunate in that the region was only lightly populated by the Alasiyani Nomads; unfortunately, the reason quickly became clear as the Kerendans became the target of incessant Humanoid raids. For the region they settled in was within the territory of several nomadic Humanoid tribes that had been pushed out of the Altan Tepes by the Dwarves of Goldleaf in the first century of the Thyatian Empire. Unfortunately for the Humanoids, only the toughest, most experienced and deadliest Kerendans had made the trek across the Altan Tepes. Few Humanoids survived after the Kerendans were able to learn the lay of the land and adapt to the harsher conditions of the dry hills. Once the region was cleared of Humanoids (ca. 255 AC), the Kerendans were able to take stock of their new land, and they found it to be to their liking. The upland plains were the perfect region for raising horses (as the Ylari have shown to this day), the winter rains provide more than enough pasturage for herds in the spring and early summer, and the numerous springs provided many pleasant locales for settlement. Though the Humanoids had mostly been driven from the land, some tribes still raided from the mountains, where the Kerendans could not reach them. Thus, the Kerendans took to building their settlements within the protection of mud and stone walls. The few noble families of the exiles claimed title to the lands and named their new "estates" after their ancient families. A folk which had long tended to fields and farms now found themselves tending to flocks and herds, as they rounded up the sheep and goats left by the decimated Humanoid tribes. The Kerendans, always fond of horses, came into their prime as they increased their herds through trade with the itinerant tribesman from the interior of the basin. Thus, by the time the exiles were informed of the final fall of the Von Stregger Dynasty in 267 AC, few found that they desired to return, for they had built themselves a new home in the desert lands. The First Centuries (267 - 489 AC) The advent of the Second Tatriokanitas Dynasty in 267 AC meant little change for the Kerendan settlers in the Alasiyan Basin (they had no name for their new land; most estates were known by the name of the founding family, such as the Villa Patricos or Villa Regulus, though some were known through a prominent feature, such as Villa Alver, known for its white sands). There was some trade with the Thyatian coastal colonies to the east (founded over a century before by Thyatian merchants), but otherwise interaction with their former homeland was rare. They continued to trade with the Alasiyani Nomads, and some of the families began to intermarry with the Alasiyans; these were mostly families that held most of their wealth in horses, as the Alasiyani Nomads would often cement the marriage, and the familial socio-economic ties, with gifts of horses. Raids by the Humanoids of the Altan Tepes continued, and increased as more Thyatians, Kerendans and Dwarves settled the southern slopes, pushing the Humanoids further into the Alasiyan Basin. A jihad, or religious war, overtook the Alasiyani Nomads of the deserts in the mid 4th century. The Kerendans remained neutral, as they had kept their own faith and judiciously steered clear (where possible) of the issue of faith in dealing with their Alasiyan allies. Fortunately for the defeated Alasiyani Nomad clans, the victorious clans were extremely generous and simply exiled them rather than extirpated them. The Kerendans mediated the exile for the Alasiyani Nomads, and aided the vanquished in their journey to the south, into the Grendale River Valley, where the Alasiyani Nomads settled in 360 AC under the leadership of Sheik Selim ben Hassan. There was little response to this incursion by the Thyatians (who had not as yet settled the region), as the Thyatians were once again in the midst of Dynastic struggles (the Alasiyani Nomad migration occurred during the rule of the usurper Michaelus I Marakosian ("The Wizard Bane", ruled 352 - 370AC)). The southern clans of Alasiyani Nomads worked in concert with the Kerendans of Alasiya against the Humanoids of the Altan Tepes, and after a decade of concerted effort thoroughly cowed most of the Humanoids, such that raids were rare for almost two (Human) generations. The Kerendan's idyll lasted until 400 AC, when Thyatian Emperor Alexian III ("The Sage", ruled 399 - 415 AC), of the First Kerendan Dynasty, "rediscovered" his "lost cousins" in the Alasiyan Basin. Trade and contact with the Empire increased severalfold as the First Kerendan Dynasty regarded the Alasiyani Kerendans as a "protectorate" of the Empire; it was never expressly or officially claimed as such during the First Kerendan Dynasty, though Zendrolion IV ("The Horse Lord", ruled 425 - 443 AC) had claimed a winter estate in the Alasiyani Kerendan lands. For a time, Alasiyani Kerendan art and horses were found in the finest homes, and Alasiyani Kerendan mannerisms were affected by members of the Imperial Court and the upper crust of the Empire. The Imperial presence was suddenly withdrawn, however, in 475 AC, upon the deposition and death of Lucinius III ("The Drunkard", ruled 471 - 475 AC). The Alphatian Interregnum (475 - 489 AC) left the Alasiyani Kerendan "high-culture" flower to wilt on the stem, as the Thyatians were wrapped up in the struggle to regain control of their own Empire. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:19:59 EST From: Mystaros Subject: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People Part 6 The Ispan Golden Age (794 - 861 AC) In 786 AC the last of the Redstone Emperors, Zendrolion VIII ("The Small Prince", ruled 782 - 786 AC) was deposed by Berthold "The Black Prince" Von Gehrling, the brother of the Count of Hattias. Naturally, his rule was strongly opposed on all sides, but unfortunately the Eastern Legions were in no shape to reclaim the Imperial Throne. Nor did any one other legitimate faction have enough power to reclaim the throne. The Ispan ArchBaron and the Council of Barons, along with the aid of the Ispan Elf Clan Elders, decided to throw in with the ancient Tatriokanitas Dynasty, and support their claimant, Gabrionus Marcus Lucinius Tatriokanitas, Duke of Thyatis (aka Gabrionus I "The Great", ruled 794 - 812 AC). The Ispans played a major role in bringing down the usurper and elevating the Third Tatriokanitas Dynasty, and Gabrionus was generous in return. The Ispans were granted the entirety of the Protectorate of Laticea, several northern Amancerian towns (whose leaders had supported an opponent of Gabrionus) and the southern half of the modern County of Kendach as well as expanded territories in the Forest of Shadows. All these Ispan territories were organized into the Grand Duchy of Ispa ola, under the rule of the Ispan Grand Duke (El Gran Ducado de Ispa ola in Ispan). The Ispans had entered into their own; they more than doubled their territories; they greatly enriched their treasuries through the largesse of those that they supported; and they continually increased their influence at the Imperial Court. The penultimate example of Ispan influence during the early Gabrionites Dynasty was when Empress Terentia III ("The Healer", ruled 823 - 835 AC) named her first born son, Casimir, the future Emperor Lucinius IV ("The Magefriend", ruled 846 - 851 AC) after her friend and confidante, Casimiro Rodrigo Hernando Ramirez de Villa Santos, the Grand Duke of Ispa ola. Ispan explorers, merchants and conquistadors travelled the length and breadth of the Known World and points beyond. They expanded the territories of Ispa ola by settling the wild lands of the north eastern quarter of the Great Escarpment. They explored the Savage Coast, the Serpent Peninsula and the wilds of Davania. Some Ispans claimed to have climbed the peaks of the Arm of the Immortals and gazed upon the shores of the Furthest Ocean. Two of these explorers would hold an important place in the history of the Ispans, and bear some mention here. The Savage Coast was explored in great detail by Ispan adventurers in the 850's; some were in the employ of Ierendian interests, some were working for the Minrothad Guilds, and others still were exploring of their own accord. These Ispan explorers made many contacts among the peoples of the City States and the members the Lawful Brotherhood. Their tales, trophies and treasures generated much interest and inspired a great deal of wanderlust among the younger generation, though few did anything about it. Those few who did seldom returned. One of the most incredible tales of the Ispan Explorers came about in 860 AC, when Don Sancho Estaban de la Villa Florida followed up on a Minrothian Guildsman's report of a mysterious chain of islands in the middle of the Sea of Dread. The Guildsmen had traversing the Strait of Dread, the narrow band of sea between The Abyss and the Sargasso Sea, searching for a quick route to Davania, when they were blown off course and into uncharted waters. He followed the reputed course of the Minrothians in his ship, Los Caballito del Rey, and did in fact find and explore a mysterious chain of islands. He wintered on the easternmost isle, which he named Nueva Ispa ola and claimed in the name of his sponsor, the Grand Duke. The only blotch on the Ispans during this era was the de Belcadiz scandal of 858 AC. The de Belcadiz were a minor clan of Ispan Elves (with a large percentage of Half-Elves and Demi- Elves) that had been granted lands in the territories ceded to the Ispans in 794 AC. It had been thought odd at the time that the de Belcadiz clan had accepted the broken, barren hills in the shadow of an active volcano, but it had been shrugged off as yet another de Belcadiz eccentricy (for which they were well known). It was, however, discovered in 858 AC that a large portion of the de Belcadiz clan were involved in a conspiracy against the Grand Duke, and that a major theme in their prospective coup was the use of ancient magics that had been discovered in ruins uncovered in those self same barrens! The scandal broke out late in the year, and by the new year the principal conspirators had been executed and the remainder of the entire clan had been exiled. It was said that they all emigrated en masse to the newly proclaimed Republic of Glantri, deep in the heartland of the Continent, where they assisted the native wizards in crushing the rebellion against the magiocracy. The populace of the Grand Duchy seemed to hold their breath following the de Belcadiz scandal, as though they all felt that this incident was merely the warning shot for something on a grander scheme. The chill in the air was palpable, and the Noble Courts all seemed to fall silent, as though they were dancing in a faerie ring. Omen and portents all pointed toward something grim. All those in the know thought it would come from within, like the de Belcadiz scandal. They were wrong. continued... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #184 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, March 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 185 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Homepage Has Been Updated! [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the MML Directory! [MYSTARA] - School of Magecraft Staff Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising Re: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People: Some Notes Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D PBeM - Call for Players Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:46:05 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >And an Immortal can't be a magic-user? Besides, Etienne *is* a mage, and *Rad* is the Immortal :) >And also, Etienne achieved Immortality with his magic. Can you name another mage who came even close to that feat? I consider all Immortals magic users though not necessarily mages. I think Etienne is masquerading as a mage though he is, in truth, an Immortal (unless Mark of Amber reduced him). But all Immortals achieved immortality with their magic. Etienne achieved it with the Radiance from the NoS which is one reason other Immortals didn't trust him since he didn't come by immortality 'honestly' as they see it. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:21:23 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product As some of you might already know, the Planescape product In the Cage: The Faces of Sigil featured a Mystaran Shadow Elf. I thought it might be interesting to point out the the lastest PS product, The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III has two creatures of Mystaran decent: the Frost Salamander and the Fundamental (Is it me or does that last creature sound like an elemental that likes to party?) The Fundamental includes a quote from a Mystaran adventurer/scholar. OK, so it ain't exactly a new Gazetteer... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:02:11 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Greetings! I thought I'd let you all know (with the recent discussion of Terari) that I've decided to set up a Mystara Net Project, namely the Karameikan School of Magecraft. I created a page (on Geocities since they now have 6MB available free) for the School and plan to have listing of staff, classes, spells, creatures from the School. What I'd like to see us all do is to create these things for the School. Got an idea for a wizard that you think would make a good teacher? A new spell or magical creature that you're working on? Or a special class that you think would be interesting? Post to the list and let's all look it over and add it to the School. You can check the page out at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/. Let me know what you think of the idea. I thought it could give us something to play around with while we wait for Mystara's rebirth. I'm going through my notes to see what I can come up with myself. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:32:14 +0100 From: Deathwatch Naranek Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft At 05:02 PM 3/20/98 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings! >I thought I'd let you all know (with the recent discussion of Terari) that I've decided to set up a Mystara Net Project, namely the Karameikan School of Magecraft. I created a page (on Geocities since they now have 6MB available free) for the School and plan to have listing of staff, classes, spells, creatures from the School. What I'd like to see us all do is to create these things for the School. Got an idea for a wizard that you think would make a good teacher? A new spell or magical creature that you're working on? Or a special class that you think would be interesting? PPost to the list and let's all look it over and add it to the School. You can check the page out at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/. LLet me know what you think of the idea. I thought it could give us something to play around with while we wait for Mystara's rebirth. I'm going through my notes to see what I can come up with myself. >-- >This has been a Galwylin© Production >galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) >http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ I think some of the books mention things about teachers at the school. It's a cool idea, btw. I'll look for stuff and will try to help you out with this. :) Deathwatch *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:42:21 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] The MML Homepage Has Been Updated! You heard right. All the fun and elightenment that is the Mystara Mailing List Homepage has been updated and made even more crombulant. All directory entries I have received have been added (if it ain't there, send it again). A glitch in the links section has been fixed (thanks Tomás!), and a new article has been added to the online Dragon links. Also, a problem with the FAQ page should be fixed. If you are one fo the people who reported this, check it out and let me know if everything is copacetic. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:43:27 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Get a Link to Your Mystara Page on the MML Home Page! Mystarans, Do you have a Mystara web page out there? If you do feel free to send the URL to the list Admin at one of the addresses below to have your page listed on the MML home page Mystara Links page. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:44:18 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Register With the MML Directory! Mystarans, Want others on the list to know more about you? Want them to be able to contact you more easily? Well, then, send in your entry for the MML Member Directory! The only required components are the first two: Name and E-Mail Address. The ones thereafter are all optional, merely suggestions. Add additonal material if you like (although the Admin reserves the right to edit for brevity and relavence. We don't need a four paragraph description of your dog, for example :) Please send all responses to me rather than the list (unless you really want to send it to the list, though we had a thread like this not too long ago). I encourage everyone to join! >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Name: E-Mail: Home Page: Home City/State/Country: Year I Started Playing RPG's: Year I Started Playing Mystara: Current Mystara Projects I Am Working On: Other xD&D Settings I Play: Other RPG's I Play: Occupation: Year of Birth: Other Hobbies: General Comments: >>>>>>>Snip -- Send this part only<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:20:34 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - School of Magecraft Staff Here's a submission to the staff of the school to look over. ***** Elrol Kavaros Honorary Dean of the Karameikan School of Magecraft Elrol was born in Specularum to a Traladaran woman who worked as a prostitute. After her death at the hand of a Thyatian man who was believed to be Elrol's father, he found himself fending for himself on the streets of Specularum at age twelve. During this time he met and befriended a thief named Piotr Haldaenu. Together they joined an adventuring party where Elrol met his first true instructor of magic from a Glantrian mage by the name of Haigo. Elrol was very impressed by the mage and planned to attend the great Glantri School of Magic. During the exploration of a dragon's lair, the party discovered the dragon still resided there. All but Elrol and Piotr were killed. Unknown at the time, Haigo had escaped at the cost of the rest of the party. Elrol, fearing he no longer could enter the Glantri School without Haigo's recommendation, joined the Magician's Guild of Specularum at age sixteen. After four years of apprenticeship, he again left Specularum for adventure with Piotr and two new friends, Selma Lightfoot and Gunnar Bergthorson. On their first adventure together, they encountered the Alasiyan woman, Avicenna Al-Tahir from Tel Akbir. She would later become Elrol's wife. After gaining enough riches, Selma left the group and bought a run-down inn in the Merchant district of Specularum. Elrol, Avicenna and Piotr continue to adventure together gathering spell components for the new Karameikan School of Magecraft. Elrol occasionally teaches courses in gathering components correctly and is a favorite of the students and faculty. Elrol is a pleasant man that enjoys his time at the school. Never having a close relationship with his own instructors, he attempts to give the students as much time as possible. He still feels inferior to many of the deans at the school and has the highest respect of Master Terari though he is hesitant to speak with him often. While the idea of remaining a permanent dean of the school has played across his mind, he finds his love of travel to make that impractical. He and Avicenna have a small house in Krakatos and often visits Selma and Gunnar at the Silver Heath Tavern and Inn in Mirros. His relationship with Piotr has become strained since learning he has sired more than one child and abandoned it and the mother. Notes: Birthdate Yarthmont 19, 984 AC; AL NG; AC 6 (cloak of protection +2); MV 12; human M7; hp 20; THAC0 18; #AT 1; Damage 1d4 (dagger) or by spell; Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 13. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:48:27 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Adapting AD&D to Mystara In a message dated 98-03-19 11:39:02 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >What about the Hin? Uhm do Halflings have IR-vision in OD&D? I dont rremember at the moment. No, they do not have infravision. But they do have a number of special abilities that their AD&D counterparts lack -- such as AC bonus vs. large foes (D&D dwarves and gnomes lack this ability, BTW), initiative bonus, bonus to hit with ANY missile weapon, and hiding ability. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:48:34 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Rising In a message dated 98-03-19 12:25:11 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >I don't think the American dream would be very apropriate in Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:04:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #185 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 1beadc9c3251f947296e46c062f65c6e >Darokin. The Nation is too well established for that. If you want a frontier setting, you could have Daokin invade the Athruagin Clans though. That would produce new land and could be a way of going from rags to riches for some. You are right that Darokin should not be a democracy: it is an oligarchy based on wealth. There are numerous nations in history that have had similar forms of government -- Venice, in particular, comes to mind. I see little reason for Darokin to develop into a monarchy any time soon. The government of Darokin has consistently been depicted as reasonable, never losing touch with the will of its people (their worst mistake to date being that war with Alfheim) and maintaining its foreign policy so well that it has generally not usually had to expend a lot of effort to defend its basically indefensible borders. To some extent this is all understandable -- the rulers of Darokin have to develop certain attitudes in order for their nation to survive and prosper, and those who do not have those attitudes never achieve power. But what would happen if Darokin were somehow destabilized? A civil war might do the trick -- if, for example, frictions among different merchant houses got so completely out of control that the Darokinians began fighting among themselves. Darokin would then go from being the great stabilizer of the Known World to its battlefield, sort of as Germany did during the time of the Reformation. As for a colony of Darokinians establishing an America-like nation on the Atruaghin Plateau -- that region has the proper sort of native culture, surely, but the main problem is that it is too close to Darokin. An important factor in the development of the USA was the ocean that separated it from Europe, thereby allowing it to go its own way rather than develop as a mere extension of Great Britain. But there are many places along the coast of Davania that would make excellent locations for a Darokinian colony to develop into an "America". Of course, it would not take much to develop the Hinterlands into such a nation. If I am not mistaken, there is a rather extensive Thyatian colony in that region, surrounded by four tribes of "barbarians". Perhaps the population of this Thyatian colony has been expanding because people from Thyatis have gone there to get away from the innumerable wars and other disasters back home. Perhaps these colonists have begun pushing the natives back from the coast. Perhaps Emperor Eusebius has been raising taxes on the Hinterland colonists to finance his military adventures closer to home. Perhaps the Hinterland colonists are getting fed up and are at the point of revolting. You can see where this could lead, right? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:50:33 EST From: Mystaros Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History of the Ispan People: Some Notes For some reason the mailing system didn't like my spelling of Ispanola; the "n" was supposed to have that little wave above it (I think it's called a tilde or something like that). So it appeared as "Ispa ola"; read that as Ispan~ola ("Ispanyola") (sounds just the real world "Hispan~ola", only without the initial "H"). The Grand Duchy of Ispan~ola is the Ispan state that existed from 794 through 862 AC, in the northern section of the Shadow Coast on the Isle of Dawn... Nueva Ispan~ola is the easternmost island in the Thanegioth Archipelago. It was settled in 875 AC by several thousand Ispans and remains an Ispan stronghold to this day. Espan~a ("Espanya") is the region of the Savage Baronies settled by mixed groups of Ispans and Aranjuez, Espadi-descended Alasiyans. Verdan~a ("Verdanya") is the region of the Savage Baronies that was settled by Ispans and mixed groups of Yavi and Huleans. Cubia Occidental is the largest isle in the Western Thanegioth Archipelago, settled by groups of Ispans that did not complete the journey to the Savage Coast; subsequently, many Yavi, Sindhi and Huleans settled in the region. Many of these islands are now occupied by Ispan pirates. The entire region is now known as the "Karakarine", named after the indigenous tribes of Humanoids that were discovered to occupy the isles... (see module X8; this should in no way, shape or form be taken as an insult to the Caribe or other native of the RW Caribbean; the name of the Kara-Kara was merely a fortuitous coincidence)... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:32:06 EST From: Namlespoet Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - New Saving Throw System for both D&D and AD&D In a message dated 98-03-20 04:39:55 EST, k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi writes: << The only new spells in GAZ3 are Radiance spells (unless you also count the abilities of the Seven Crafts). G:kom has many new spells. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 06:22:34 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D PBeM - Call for Players CHRONICLES OF TEAREA AND BEYOND This is a call for role-players for a Classic Dungeons & Dragons Play-by-eMail campaign. The game will be based on the Rules Cyclopedia in addition to the Basic, Expert, Companion, Master and Immortal rule sets. The game will be played in the newly created world of Tearea. Players will experience an atmosphere of intrigue, betrayal, suspence, and all the trappings of high fantasy in an epic struggle against the evil Darkin. Check out the web site at www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/dnd/cotab/intro.html Warning - This page uses alot of graphics so it will be very slow. To skip the introduction page go to www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/dnd/cotab/ Chris Billows - Dungeon Master cc Irony Games PBeM Announcements *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:10:55 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft In a message dated 98-03-20 18:17:40 EST, you write: << I thought I'd let you all know (with the recent discussion of Terari) that I've decided to set up a Mystara Net Project, namely the Karameikan School of Magecraft. I created a page (on Geocities since they now have 6MB available free) for the School and plan to have listing of staff, classes, spells, creatures from the School. What I'd like to see us all do is to create these things for the School. Got an idea for a wizard that you think would make a good teacher? A new spell or magical creature that you're working on? Or a special class that you think would be interesting? Post to the list and let's all look it over and add it to the School. You can check the page out at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/. Let me know what you think of the idea. I thought it could give us something to play around with while we wait for Mystara's rebirth. I'm going through my notes to see what I can come up with myself. >> That is actually not a bad idea. I have always wanted to see some work done on the Karameikan School. I guess it kind of showed in my "Sergei's Half Elf Profiles" and research upon the Half Elf Myth. IIRC there is a brewing rivalry developing between the Karameikan and Glantrian magic schools. IMO the Karameikan school would probably be more receptive that the Glantrians. As such, they would be more public with their findings. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:25:54 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Area of Concern << I think it is a pretty good fit (assuming I remember Asterius correctly). I might fit even better with Mercury. The Roman also made him god of merchants, travellers, and atheletes. >> I don't think that there is a difference between Mercury and Hermes. He's just the Roman and Greece version of an idea. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:25:48 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar << This is not true, as I stated earlier. The Alphatians do control weather. You might be correct if you said "any other ruler in the Known World". But I don't know the accuracy of that statement. I think I may remember certain references to students of the Great School of Magic doing things in that area... >> O.k., in your campaign and probably in most campaigns. But not in the various products. If I'm wrong plaesa tell me the pages. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:03:07 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay Greetings! I was thinking that one of the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles dealt with Tangor Bay on Skothar but I can't seem to find which. Does anyone know if there is any information available on it and the surrounding area? - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:48:18 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft << I thought I'd let you all know (with the recent discussion of Terari) that I've decided to set up a Mystara Net Project, namely the Karameikan School of Magecraft. I created a page (on Geocities since they now have 6MB available free) for the School and plan to have listing of staff, classes, spells, creatures from the School. What I'd like to see us all do is to create these things for the School. Got an idea for a wizard that you think would make a good teacher? A new spell or magical creature that you're working on? Or a special class that you think would be interesting? Post to the list and let's all look it over and add it to the School. You can check the page out at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2336/. Let me know what you think of the idea. I thought it could give us something to play around with while we wait for Mystara's rebirth. I'm going through my notes to see what I can come up with myself. >> I started a discussion along these lines on TSR's Mystara Message Board. Anyhow, there is a new product out for AD&D called the College of Wizardry. Within its pages, it gives suggestions on how a DM can place the college into existing game worlds, including Mystara and Red Steel (aka Savage Coast). It makes for some intresting reading, check it out if you get a chance. One thing about it I found intresting is that it suggests that the founder of the College be a mage driven from Glantri and setting up shop in Mirros. As Karameikos already has a "magic school" it could be intresting to play the politics out in your adventures. What impact might two different schools of Wizardry have on Karameikos? On The Known World? Just some food for thought................................. Keep Your Cinnabryl Stocked! Al AKA LandoTW@AOL.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:04:18 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay In a message dated 98-03-21 12:19:42 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >I was thinking that one of the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles dealt wwith Tangor Bay on Skothar but I can't seem to find which. Does anyone know if there is any information available on it and the surrounding area? I am pretty sure that Haldemar never visited the continent of Skothar in the Princess Ark series. However, in Dragon #200 there is a Known World Grimoire article that details the Arm of the Immortals. It makes mention of some demi-ogres who colonized that area from Skothar. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #185 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:51:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #186 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 776fa8ac008c1aad0a97a36431dfdd9b mystara-digest Sunday, March 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 186 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant Normal Human (was Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant) Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:29:55 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay Kaviyd wrote: >I am pretty sure that Haldemar never visited the continent of Skothar in the Princess Ark series. However, in Dragon #200 there is a Known World Grimoire article that details the Arm of the Immortals. It makes mention of some demi-ogres who colonized that area from Skothar. You're right, Haldemar never went to Skothar. The half-ogres of Gombar and Suma'a are a cross between Tanagoro who colonized the western coasts of the Arm of the Immortals, and ogres who crossed over later from Skothar, most likely from the eastern coasts of that continent, along the Tangor Chain. Of course, there's nothing saying that an ogre nation couldn't exist around Tangor Bay, but perhaps members of the MOrient team have something to add to this? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:59:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Tomas responded to what Matthew Levy wrote: YYYes, I think that was the general idea. I don't really know much about Iran to know whether such ideas have any validity, but it is certainly the case that the writers of X4-X5-X10 and the WotI were playing off of the idea of the Ayatollah as a deceitful evil propagandist. I personally think the idea of a church and religion based on constant deception is a more appropriate reflection of US politics than of any other country, but that's I suppose not particularly relevant. >I'm finding this message specially attractive because it gives me the oportunity to read about your personal feelings, opinions and ideas. No matter if they are mystara related or not. Neither if i share them or not. Well I don't hide my politics. But I am wary of getting the list involved in more non-Mystara discussions. My last post was aimed at specifically showing how views of the RW show up in Mystara as a fantasy world, but I don't want to stray too much into pure RW politics. I'm always happy to have such discussions off the list, however. >>The way it finally shapes up is that Hule's language is based on > > Turkish but its politics is based upon a particular image of Iran iiin the late 20th century, except this is complicated by the inclusion of Loki, the story of the blue knife, and other such things. >You've arisen my curiosity once more. Why did you reasoned its language was based on Turkish ? And what is the blue knife connection ? Look at some Turkish place names sometime, and then look at the names of places in Hule, especially the humanoid preserves. If nothing else, the umlauts over the u's are a dead giveaway ... in the RW the only languages that use that particular character are Spanish (very rare, only for non-silent u after g or possibly c), German, and Turkish. As for the blue knife, I don't know where that myth came from ... I just meant that the connection between Hosadus and the goblinoids makes the history more complex than RW Turkish culture, which is at least slightly less complex. >>>There are a lot of different ways to approach such things. TTThe problem of using the real world and especially present day politics for models for a jointly-constructed fantasy world is that the images you are working from will be very different depending on your outlook, and it's also very easy to get hyper-self-righteous (notice all the debates about slavery on the list recently). I am unabashedly a leftist in my political outlook, but not at all of the dogmatic variety. As a political philosophy student, one of my interests is the intellectual history of modern concepts of race and related political ideologies >I should have guessed. Now i understand all you worries about mystaran races and politics. You've written you're interested in modern concepts of race and related political ideologies. Do you refer to ideologies which are tightly tied to a particular race ? Actually, I meant that "race" itself is an ideological concept, and the origin of the "demi-humans" and "humanoids" in D&D, with their genetic differences in character and alignment, and their perpetual racial antagonisms, are derived from fantasy sources, particularly Tolkein, which reflect RW racial ideologies. It is not a coincidence that the great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. Understand that I am not saying these guys were Nazis, but they certainly weren't liberals either. Tolkein was quoted as saying that he thought the idea of the Aryan Master Race was a wonderful one, although he didn't like the way Hitler had "corrupted" it, and Lovecraft wrote essays supporting the KKK and bad poetry about the "inferiority" of blacks. The basic idea of post-Tolkein fantasy - good, lawful, and noble humans, elves, and dwarves vs. the scurrilous, inferior orc/goblin hordes of chaos - is more or less a metaphor for European racism and imperialism, particularly the conflict between the West and the Middle East. Now I feel like I should clarify one thing: I am not "worried" about Mystaran races per se. I think that these racist origins are a part of the game of D&D, but that doesn't mean that one should be ashamed of the game or of the world of Mystara or anything so guilty. I just find it interesting to see how different the values from which the game was spawned are from those that I consciously espouse, and I wonder sometimes what is going on with it at a subconscious level. I find this fascinating, and I enjoy D&D in a somewhat ironic fashion because of it. And I think that this irony can help at interesting complexity and added fun to the game because of this. >>so I've discussed with Daly the proposition that D&D is in many ways a subtly racist and imperialistic game. >What things have you spotted to be sign of racism or imperialism ? I can think in some of them but i'd love to read what you have discovered. I'm sure you have been more subtle. Well, I think the biggest example is in the goblinoid races. These races are sometimes equated with "barbaric" or "savage" RW cultures, but never with "civilized" ones (with the exception of Kol's Kobolds). The Red Orcs are a nasty stereotype of Native Americans (admittedly counterbalanced to some extent by the humans of Atruaghin), the Yellow Orcs are a nasty version of Mongols (again, opposed to the more respectable Ethengars), and the Kara-kara of X8 are pretty obviously intended as a mockery of Melanesians. Overall TSR has been careful when it creates *human* cultures based on RW non-western groups to always try to be positive and "multi-cultural" (which has its own problems), but there is definitely an inherent bias in the use of non-humans. Think about what it would be like, for instance, if there were English or French or Spanish or German-speaking Orcs, or Bugbears ... hard to picture, right? But we have feline and dog-headed European cultures on Mystara ... because Rakasta and Lupins have been portrayed as noble and good. Orcs, who are inherently evil, can be native americans, or asians, or pacific islanders, but not europeans. catch my drift? >>I don't think that any shame should result from this, but it is important to recognize. I realize that I state things strongly, but this is not to be "politically correct", it is because I am intrigued by the conceptual structure of ideology and think one of the best ways to "fight one's inner fascism" is to examine our own fantasies in an ironic way. >Hmm, this paragraph seems somewhat confusing. Although, i believe i've come with the righ ideat. You mean fantasy allow us to show places, persons and any other thing with only those attributes we want to emphasize. This way we can avoid reflecting those other properties that could distract us from analyzing those which are important. well, we can basically do whatever we want with it. i tend to think of it this way: many things that i enjoy ... including D&D, action movies, comic books, etc. are ideological products that reflect the militaristic and yes, racist culture in which i live. the best way to fight racism is not to be self-righteous about it, but to understand how the psychology of racism, imperialism, militarism, etc. works, and then maybe to "tweak" it here and there when I can. But here we are getting away from specifically Mystaran topics again ... perhaps we should discuss this off-list? >>So for instance, I can see that the image of Hosadus is a mirror of > > the western media's portrayal of the Ayatollah during the 1980's (((whether this portrayal was anywhere near correct, i can't really say - i wouldn't have wanted to spend my spring break in tehran, but i don't believe everything i see on TV either) and i can see how the mission of the PC's in X4 is an ideological representation of the desire to go kick ass in the middle east ... knowing this can help me to be somewhat subversive in the way that i play my D&D, for instance having Darokin Diplomatic Corps personnel secretly trading high-powered wands for hostages and then being exposed in a big media scandal ... or hey, you could have alphatian weapons inspectors demanding entrance to Hulean territory to count the airships of mass destruction ... but i think you see my point. >*Applauses* And it's really a good point. This is probably not only the best but the most refreshing message i've read in a long time. I love the idea. I've sometimes introduced new elements in my campaigns as the ones you have refered to. From time to time i've done so and this has allowed me to study real life things from a point of view difficult to achieve in our real world. This has also kept my campaign alive for a long time giving me and my players new opotunities to "play" with. >>>Isle of Dawn >>>In general, the nations along the eastern shore have been kingdoms of the Alphatian Empire, while the regions of the western shore have been provinces of Thyatis. >>how do you apply this to Caerdwicca? its neither a nation nor a > > kingdom, and it's on the southern shore. :) >>>He, he, he. PWAII page 42 says << it has been traditionally allied with thyatis . The PWA spoke about eastern and western shores so i guess they divided the island in two shares. No south shore was mentioned. Nice try. :) >>ah. does it say how long it's been around? "traditionally" implies at least some time span, though with the number of wars and side-switches > on the IoD, it might be only relative. >Maybe, maybe. You could be right. :) >>anyway take care and let's keep up our IoD discussions, it seems we are the only ones interested (so let's rock and roll, ok?) >O.K. If no other one involves in our discussion i'll not reply to the list but to you directly. >Tomás Sánchez Jr >deckard@encomix.es >#ICQ 9190040 >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. take it easy, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:17:55 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant Sometime back somebody posted an AD&D version of the Darokin merchant to the list. The idea of having non-combat-oriented character classes intrigued me.. so I have two questions. First, I prefer OD&D but don't have the Darokin book; would anyone mind posting the general OD&D stats for this class? (I don't mean copyrighted material, but I'm curious as to what combat tables it uses, what hit dice, etc. Also what sort of special abilities does it have? Is the AD&D version up on the web anywhere?) Second, does anyone have other interesting classes they've come up with? I was thinking of writing up some of the character types listed under "Men" in the RC monster listing: Freebooter, Noble, Sage, Artisan. I think characters of these types could be interesting (depending on the campaign), but I'm not sure what sort of abilities to give them. Perhaps a good starting point would be to write up a "Normal Human." Such a character is not a fighter, so should probably use the same hit dice and tables as a magic-user, and would not generally have great saving throws. But they might have a *lot* of skill slots to spend on various mundane abilities, in addition to specific abilities defined by their specific profession. Any thoughts on this idea? Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:35:28 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Normal Human (was Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant) In a message dated 98-03-22 03:26:47 EST, bing@iccom.com writes: >Perhaps a good starting point would be to write up a "Normal Human." SSuch a character is not a fighter, so should probably use the same hit dice and tables as a magic-user, and would not generally have great saving throws. But they might have a *lot* of skill slots to spend on various mundane abilities, in addition to specific abilities defined by their specific profession. >Any thoughts on this idea? As I recall, "Tales of the Lance" had a write-up on a "Normal" class. This class included both "Tinker" Gnomes and non-adventuring "Commoner" Humans (or, to be more accurate, Humans who never intended to become adventurers). >From the boxed set: Normals have XP table and hit dice apparently based on the Rogue classes. Saving throws are as Fighter 1 (with - -1 penalty) at level 1 and improve by +2 per 3 levels to level 17. THAC0 is problematical -- for Tinkers it is listed as +1 per four levels (worse than a Mage) while for Commoners it is listed as +1 per level (equal to a Fighter). Commoners have a -2 penalty to all ability scores except those associated with their main non- weapon proficiencies, for which they receive a bonus of +2. A Commoner begins with one weapon proficiency plus all non-weapon proficiencies associated with his profession. As he advances, he gains one non-weapon proficiency every two levels and one weapon proficiency every level. My suggestions: I would have three "normal" classes as follows: Academic: Represents characters who live primarily by their mental abilities. Prime requisites are intelligence and wisdom. Except as noted, all characteristics are as for Wizard class. They cannot cast spells but receive one additional weapon proficiency per eight levels and +1 to each of two existing non-weapon proficiencies per level gained. Laborer: Represents characters who live primarily by hard physical labor. Prime requisites are strength and constitution. Except as noted, all characteristics are as for Priest (Cleric) class. They cannot cast spells but may have extraordinary strength as well as the Warrior bonus to hit points for very high constitution. They receive one additional weapon proficiency per four levels. Merchant: Represents characters who are neither Academics nor Laborers. Prime requisites are dexterity and charisma. Except as noted, all characteristics are as for Rogue classes. They have no thieving skills (except those taken as non-weapon proficiencies) and cannot cast any spells. They receive a bonus of +1 to any existing non-weapon proficiency per level gained. They also gain one new weapon proficiency per six levels. Common features of all "normal" classes: All classes begin play with one weapon proficiency and four non-weapon proficiencies (in addition to at least two bonus non-weapon proficiencies that are associated with their profession). They gain one additional non-weapon proficiency per two levels. Thieving skills may be taken as non-weapon proficiencies; each subsequent level gain and/or +1 improvement improves the base percentage skill by +5%. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:36:52 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin Merchant In a message dated 98-03-22 03:26:47 EST, bing@iccom.com writes: >First, I prefer OD&D but >don't have the Darokin book; would anyone mind posting the general OD&D stats for this class? (I don't mean copyrighted material, but I'm curious as to what combat tables it uses, what hit dice, etc. Also what sort of special abilities does it have? Is the AD&D version up on the web anywhere?) As for combat abilities and hit dice -- the Darokin merchant fights strictly according to the other class and gains no combat abilities from Merchant level. Special abilities are spell-like in nature -- a complete list would make a rather long posting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:22:40 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara The following is a message from the Net-Almanac editor Micheal Roy >I've been going over Mystara for the purpose of determining weather paterns and I've discovered several SERIOUS PROBLEMS with it. >The following works fine: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:51:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #186 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 776fa8ac008c1aad0a97a36431dfdd9b >-According to all sources, Mystara has a circumference of about 19,400 miles. >-The Equator of Mystara passes on the continent of Davania, just south of the jungle coast >-30 degrees North Latitude passes through Ceardwicca on the Isle of Dawn, just south of the islands of Ierendi and Minrothad, through Kladanovick on the serpent Peninsula, and just off the coast of the Savage Coast. >-All weather patterns for the Old World, Jungle Coast, and Savage Coast work fine with this information taken into account. >Here's where the problems start: >-According to the size of Mystara's circumference, the 60 degrees North would arrive at about the city of Landfall. 60 degrees north represents tundra area here in North America, of which the Brun weather system is modeled after! That would mean that Landfall, Oceansend (67 degrees N), and especially Alpha (75 degrees N) are all located in the tundra... nevermind the elves of Foresthomes (82 degrees N) even further up north! AAdmitedly, in Europe it's slightly warmer at these latitudes, but that's because of the warm waters of the Gulf Stream, something that does not (and could not) occur along the coast of Norwold. Even then 75 N for Alpha... it's impossible. >-90 degrees North: the NORTH POLE, hits just before the island of Frosthaven of Norwold. Hyborea actually reaches up to about 110 degrees! >I think we should vote on one of the possible solutions: >Possible Solutions >#1 -Shrink Norwold and the rest of Brun and Sunken Alphatia so that it fits into the described size for Mystara. We can't touch the Old World since it's been used to often for such a significant change. TThis means we would have to remove about 1200 miles North-South in Norwold: A significant distance! If it's all removed before Alpha, Alpha would fall south to about 55 degrees N, more to the south than Landfall currently is! This method is obviously very complicated if we take it, and it removes a lot of land in Norwold. It would take a lot of work to rework the entire area. >I therefore vote against this method, and I'm sure those with campaings in Norwold will also. >#2 -Change the diameter of Mystara. I've found that by increasing the circumference to about 24,400 miles, this would place Landfall at about 47 degrees N (Quebec City weather), Oceansend at about 52N and Alpha at 60N (litteraly at the edge of the tundra). This places the northern section of Hyborea just past the 90 degrees N, meaning it is actually curves into the Darklands (the polar opening to the Hollow World). TTo maintain the Old World and Savage Coast at around 30N, as well as the equator just south of the Jungle Coast, we would therefore have to add an extra 425 miles between Davania and Brun, hence enlarging the Sea of Dread. A similar increase of 5000 miles will have to be added east-west, but we can easily drop this between the east coast of Skothar and west coast of Brun. >Unfortunately, the Foresthomes of Norwold will still remain in tundra ecosystems. Maybe their magic supports a forest there just like Alfheim elves did in the steppes of Darokin... that could explain why the shadow elves went to see them for magic in saving Canoldbarth. II opt for this method as it involves the less changes to the land mass and maps of Mystara (just elves living in a tundra, t'is all)... we just add more water to our world. >As for Hollow World, we keep the same dimensions and simply increase the thickness of the crust between the two worlds (haven't done calculations for new thickness). >Comments and opinions anyone? >Fabrizio: Could you please post this to the Mystaran Mailing List for me? I think this information should be revealled to everyone. MMichael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca >"busy, ha... you don't know the half of it!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:03:56 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Michael - WHAT are you talking about? Excuse me if this is too obnoxious, but I thought it was more or less the common consensus that Mystaran weather makes absolutely no sense, and doesn't have to. There are numerous sources of evidence for the idea that climate patterns are more or less controlled by the immortals and simply do not mimic those of the RW. That being said, I am confused about several things in your post, as commented on below. >>-According to the size of Mystara's circumference, the 60 degrees North would arrive at about the city of Landfall. 60 degrees north represents tundra area here in North America, of which the Brun weather system is modeled after! That would mean that Landfall, Oceansend (67 degrees N), and especially Alpha (75 degrees N) are all located in the tundra... nevermind the elves of Foresthomes (82 degrees N) even further up north! AAAdmitedly, in Europe it's slightly warmer at these latitudes, but that's because of the warm waters of the Gulf Stream, something that does not (and could not) occur along the coast of Norwold. Even then 75 N for Alpha... it's impossible. why is this impossible? I thought the whole idea of Norwold was that, like Canada or Alaska it was a bountiful wilderness, but very cold, perhaps mildly inhospitable. That's why I like such net-canonical additions as Kaarjala, the Innuugakaliikurit, and Geoff's recent Littonia post. >>-90 degrees North: the NORTH POLE, hits just before the island of Frosthaven of Norwold. Hyborea actually reaches up to about 110 degrees! this I don't understand. Wasn't this problem solved in the Hollow World maps (which show polar as well as equatorial projections of the Mystaran globe inside and out, meaning that this isn't just a trick of bad mercator projections)? Perhaps you are confused by the fact that (because of the existence of the polar openings) the latitudinal demarcations aren't where they would be on Earth ... since there is no north pole or south pole on Mystara (just big gaping holes), they scrunched up the latitudes so that 90 degrees should be just at the lip of the dark lands .. though i think this is north of Frosthaven, not south, IIRC. >>#1 -Shrink Norwold and the rest of Brun and Sunken Alphatia so that it fits into the described size for Mystara. We can't touch the Old World since it's been used to often for such a significant change. TTThis means we would have to remove about 1200 miles North-South in Norwold: A significant distance! If it's all removed before Alpha, Alpha would fall south to about 55 degrees N, more to the south than Landfall currently is! This method is obviously very complicated if we take it, and it removes a lot of land in Norwold. It would take a lot of work to rework the entire area. >>I therefore vote against this method, and I'm sure those with campaings in Norwold will also. this is certainly a bad idea and i vote against it too, even though i hardly ever use norwold and the maps of that area often contradict each other anyway. >>#2 -Change the diameter of Mystara. I've found that by increasing the circumference to about 24,400 miles, this would place Landfall at about 47 degrees N (Quebec City weather), Oceansend at about 52N and Alpha at 60N (litteraly at the edge of the tundra). This places the northern section of Hyborea just past the 90 degrees N, meaning it is actually curves into the Darklands (the polar opening to the Hollow World). Hyborea already does curve into the darklands, significantly. Yet I still fail to understand why you are so concerned about warming up Landfall to Quebec standards when it is distinctly NORTH of Heldann and the Northern Reaches (which are supposed to resemble ICELAND and SCANDINAVIA respectively). Not to mention the fact that Soderfjord is just north of the Alasiyan desert, a fact which can only be explained by recourse to immortal magic. And I say what's good for the gander is good for the polar bears too .... hey how about a new Mystaran monster: The Frost Camel! then, we can write up "The Ecology of the Tropical War Walrus" >>To maintain the Old World and Savage Coast at around 30N, as well as the equator just south of the Jungle Coast, we would therefore have to add an extra 425 miles between Davania and Brun, hence enlarging the Sea of Dread. A similar increase of 5000 miles will have to be added east-west, but we can easily drop this between the east coast of Skothar and west coast of Brun. no, nothing is that easy. There are already maps which show skothar and brun as very close to each other around the "edge of the world" and there have been numerous things written which depend on this closeness (some are even canon). Plus which as I've just said there's no reason to change anything anyway. go look at the hollow world maps again and see if what i've said makes sense. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) This discussion about normal humans is fascinating to me. I recently went through one of my recurring phases of being interested in ultra-low powered gaming, where PCs are only ordinary humans and the emphasis is on role playing in a dangerous (but not necessarily violent) situation. Anyway I wanted to do something in Karameikos and I started thinking about ways of randomly generating "ordinary" people. The standard encounter tables are incomplete and the kit system is of course weighted towards the outlandish. So what I did was to sit down and think: in a medieval country similar to Karameikos, what would the basic "types" of people be - and it was relatively obvious that this would be based on first social class, and second profession roughly grouped (these are pretty much dependent on each other anyway). The list I came up with was the following: 1) the vast majority of the population would be peasants (whether serfs or free, including herdsmen and farm laborers of all types) there would be a very few nobles (who would be divided between active cavaliers, landowners, courtiers, and the idle rich) then came a list of other classes in society: 2) soldiers (anyone who makes a living in the army, whether a combatant or not) 3) officials (including both royal and local administrators, as well as a large number of clerics) 4) criminals (including all sorts of ruffians, urchins, and prostitutes who might not actually be of the thief class) 5) tradesmen (including artisans, craftsmen, and anyone who lives primarily by skilled manual labor) 6) unskilled laborers (relatively few in a country like Karameikos, and most of these would be convicts) 7) domestics (including both household servants, and housewives of whatever social class) 8) entertainers (all the way from street-circus performers to famous troubadours) 9) intellectuals (not just academics, but also schoolteachers and various types of wandering philosophers) 10) frontiersmen (away from the city, all those types of backwoods characters who either make a living from the wilderness or shun civilization altogether, including religious hermits, trappers, and goblin-hunters) 11) merchants (including peddlers, shopkeepers, guild representatives, etc.) 12) sailors (naval, merchant marine, privateers, pirates) 13) the most rare type of all - the true adventurer (meaning anyone who makes a living primarily by risky swashbuckling of whatever variety) anyway i think that's actually pretty comprehensive. not all characters with class abilities would come from the adventurer social class however; others like intellectuals and soldiers might tend often to have levels. I think if a concept like this was extended right it might come to replace the standard D&D class system altogether, but that's more headache than it's worth for some. Anyway if anyone has comments on this please let me know. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:23:45 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 08:03 AM 3/22/98 -0800, you wrote: >WHAT are you talking about? Excuse me if this is too obnoxious, but I thought it was more or less the common consensus that Mystaran weather makes absolutely no sense, and doesn't have to. There are numerous sources of evidence for the idea that climate patterns are more or less controlled by the immortals and simply do not mimic those of the RW. That being said, I am confused about several things in your post, as commented on below. This needs to be changed I feel. Having a gate to the plane of fire somewhere in Ylaruam is fine but I dislike the idea of a 'weatherman' Immortals. The elves of Alfheim controlling their weather could also affect Ylaruam and that also shows that this tampering with natural weather systems could cause problems elsewhere. So, I don't see weather being control everywhere but only in small places by the inhabitants. Immortals can use weather but I wouldn't won't them to control all of it. Makes me wonder whose jurisdiction that falls under. I always thought the Northern Reaches are colder than surrounding areas because of height (hence the 'Reaches' part of the name). There has to be something natural about Mystara are there's nothing to fall back on when the rules don't gel correctly. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:49:24 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) << anyway i think that's actually pretty comprehensive. not all characters with class abilities would come from the adventurer social class however; others like intellectuals and soldiers might tend often to have levels. I think if a concept like this was extended right it might come to replace the standard D&D class system altogether, but that's more headache than it's worth for some. Anyway if anyone has comments on this please let me know. >> Hm, I'm not sure in which direction you are heading, but it seems that you want to reduce the number of levels. I would prefer to create more levels. There are some conclusions from the level system that I don't like. In an army the officers always have more levels than the sergeants and the corporals and these have more levels than normal soldiers. Why? Why can a sergeant not be around level 8 and his lieutenant level 4 or 5? Imagine the old sergeant who has served for over 20 years and a young officer, fresh from the academy. I know the main reason against would be the money for XPs. OTOH a character from the Sea of Grass need not to earn a single coin to become mighty and famous. And this were only "zwei Pfennige". Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:50:00 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara << > WHAT are you talking about? Excuse me if this is too obnoxious, bbut I thought it was more or less the common consensus that Mystaran weather makes absolutely no sense, and doesn't have to. There are numerous sources of evidence for the idea that climate patterns are more or less controlled by the immortals and simply do not mimic those of the RW. That being said, I am confused about several things in your post, as commented on below. This needs to be changed I feel. Having a gate to the plane of fire somewhere in Ylaruam is fine but I dislike the idea of a 'weatherman' Immortals. The elves of Alfheim controlling their weather could also affect Ylaruam and that also shows that this tampering with natural weather systems could cause problems elsewhere. So, I don't see weather being control everywhere but only in small places by the inhabitants. Immortals can use weather but I wouldn't won't them to control all of it. Makes me wonder whose jurisdiction that falls under. I always thought the Northern Reaches are colder than surrounding areas because of height (hence the 'Reaches' part of the name). There has to be something natural about Mystara are there's nothing to fall back on when the rules don't gel correctly. -- This has been a Galwylin© Production >> Some good arguments on all sides. But I don't think that increasing Mystara would solve the problems. Instead we would buy with that so much new problems that we would all go mad with that. I'm playing for more than 10 years now and my opinion is now that logical flaws could be looked upon, from tiem to time I will smile about it and then I leave them as they are. It's really not so important. Another example is the movement. Normal movement in dungeons is incredible slow. OTOH imagine a thief with leather armour, sword, long bow, boots, cape and rucksack. He runs 120 yards in 1 round outdoor. In metric scale that were 108 meter in 10 seconds. The world record for the 100 meter distance lies short under 10 seconds. Our full-equipped thief would be a gold medal candidate for the next Olympic Games. Let's smile about this stupid fact and leave it as it is. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #186 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:38:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #187 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 39098edc90961bca889c46fda283595c mystara-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 187 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - back to classic fantasy Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay Re: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Races (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:44:43 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Mystarans, I was organizing some of my maps (I have a vast number of poster- sized maps from TSR products), and while doing so I grabbed some random Mystara map from it's sleeve (I keep 'em all in binders, in clear plastic sleeves. Very handy.) Turns out it was a map from one of the Almanacs (I think) showing the Dread Sea region. Looking over the map, I realized that a few of the locations and labels did not ring a bell, and I thought... "Do I have a Mystara product that details this area?" Unfortunatley, the answer was, "I don't know." With all the Mystara stuff I have, and plus all of the Dragon resources, there is going to be some stuff that sticks out in my mind more than others. The problem is, what are my options for learning more on a region? At this point, it involves a lot of page flipping So, what is my point? Looking back down at the map, an idea hit me: a map-based index. That is, a map, or maps, of regions of Mystara with clear labels showing what product has details on an area of that region. You know, little boxes around the map with lines and arrow pointing at specific spots. Is it me or does this sound like an excellent net.project? Anyone interested? I certainly have the software available to handle it. The only thing we need are maps, which is the problematic part, since we can't use TSR's. If anyone has any ideas, or is interested, let me know. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:51:13 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - back to classic fantasy On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:32:24 EST, you wrote: >Sombody wrote about getting back to classic fantasy D&D and that's what I ended up doing. One of the first adventures I came across was "isle of the abbey" in dungeon #34. The author wanted to write a good adventure only using the barest materials - the original boxed set. This influenced me to start a campaign using classic modules and themes - relying more on my wits than rulebooks etc. Not to say that you can't use your wits elsewhere but I find that you have to use them a little more with a "simpler" game like OD&D. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. Well, if you plan on playing your Classic D&D via internet - let me know. I will add it to the Classic D&D Web Page. __________________________________ | |\ | Chris Billows | | | Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | | www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | |_________________________________| | \_________________________________\| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:51:21 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:52:43 -0600, you wrote: >MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>Yes, I think "preservation" works better, and is more likely to meet with a positive response from TSR. >On the Realms list there was talk about TSR perserving OOP Realms products (possibly by CD-ROM). Maybe the same can happen with D&D and all its wonderful material. What is Realms? And what list are you talking about - a mailing list? What about the message boards on TSRs site... is there any discussion there? __________________________________ | |\ | Chris Billows | | | Check out my Gaming Memoirs | | | www.gatewest.net/~cpb/gaming/ | | |_________________________________| | \_________________________________\| *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:25:05 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D Preservation List... (long) Chris Paul Billows meandered fecklessly... >>On the Realms list there was talk about TSR perserving OOP Realms products (possibly by CD-ROM). Maybe the same can happen with D&D and all its wonderful material. >What is Realms? And what list are you talking about - a mailing list? What about the message boards on TSRs site... is there any discussion there? Realms = Forgotten Realms, and yes there is a mailing list for it, hosted by the same site that hosts us. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:50:22 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Let's test my Academic/Merchant/Laborer scheme out on this list of social classes: In a message dated 98-03-22 11:45:02 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >The list I came up with was the >following: >1) the vast majority of the population would be peasants (whether serfs or free, including herdsmen and farm laborers of all types) These would be Laborers. >there would be a very few nobles (who would be divided between active cavaliers, landowners, courtiers, and the idle rich) Some would have standard classes and kits, while those with no apparent "adventuring" abilities would be members of the "Merchant" class (which really should be renamed, as it basically covers everybody who is not a Laborer, Academic, or adventurer). >then came a list of other classes in society: 2) soldiers (anyone who makes a living in the army, whether a combatant or not) Combatants would be Fighters; others would be classified by actual job. >3) officials (including both royal and local administrators, as well as a large number of clerics) Divide these folks up between Academics and "Merchants". Some officials may be Wizards or Priests. >4) criminals (including all sorts of ruffians, urchins, and prostitutes who might not actually be of the thief class) These could be members of any of the three "normal" classes, although that "Merchant" class would be the most common and the "Academic" class would be least common. >5) tradesmen (including artisans, craftsmen, and anyone who lives primarily by skilled manual labor) These would be Laborers. >6) unskilled laborers (relatively few in a country like Karameikos, and most of these would be convicts) If they are truly unskilled, they should be level 0 types. Or they could be members of another class whose skills they cannot be paid for practicing. >7) domestics (including both household servants, and housewives of whatever social class) These would be "Merchants" -- they have to work hard, but the job does not require a great deal of brute physical strength. >8) entertainers (all the way from street-circus performers to famous troubadours) Definitely "Merchants" if not actual Rogues (Bards). >9) intellectuals (not just academics, but also schoolteachers and various types of wandering philosophers) These would be "Academics", with a few Wizards and Priests thrown in. >10) frontiersmen (away from the city, all those types of backwoods characters who either make a living from the wilderness or shun civilization altogether, including religious hermits, trappers, and goblin-hunters) All three "Normal" classes could be found here. Hermits are "Academics", although they undoubtedly have more Survival-type skills than their urban counterparts. >11) merchants (including peddlers, shopkeepers, guild representatives, etc.) These would be true "Merchants". >12) sailors (naval, merchant marine, privateers, pirates) Many of these would be Fighters (or Mariners from "Tales of the Lance"). Laborers and members of other adventuring classes may also be found in these jobs. >13) the most rare type of all - the true adventurer (meaning anyone who makes a living primarily by risky swashbuckling of whatever variety) Of course the standard rules cover this rarest type.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:05:06 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar At 11:25 AM 3/21/98 EST, you wrote: ><< This is not true, as I stated earlier. The Alphatians do control weather. YYou might be correct if you said "any other ruler in the Known World". But I don't know the accuracy of that statement. I think I may remember certain references to students of the Great School of Magic doing things in that area... >> >O.k., in your campaign and probably in most campaigns. But not in the various products. If I'm wrong plaesa tell me the pages. Unfortunately I do not have the Alphatian book right here with me. But it is in there. However you have to make a further clarification to your statement. Since the elves of Alfhiem (see page 16 of the Alfhiem Gazetteer) used weather magic to create the Canolbarth, you have to phrase your statement "Only Ethengar of the human Known World countries..." Then again, one could consider the blowing up of the ice by Glantrian students during Spring Break to be a kind of weather change...admittedly it is not the sort of thing to which you referred. In any case, given that there are two other nations at least who practice weather modification (Alphatia and Alfhiem) then what you say is fine for YOUR campaign. But there is no canon source which suggests that even these three (if one includes Ethengar, though I have not checked the source on that one) are the only ones. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:14:00 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tangor Bay At 09:04 PM 3/21/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-21 12:19:42 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >>I was thinking that one of the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles dealt wwwith Tangor Bay on Skothar but I can't seem to find which. Does anyone know if there is any information available on it and the surrounding area? Haldemar and the Princess Ark visited the Jennite peninsula in the 3rd Poor Wizard's Almanac. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:36:21 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products This post was bounced to me as a non-member posting. If you post from an address other than the one used to s_ubscribe, it gets bounced to me. BTW, that "_" is there so it doesn't bounce back to me again for having an admin command in it. :) From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Leroy Van Camp III worte: >me: a map-based index. That is, a map, or maps, of regions of Mystara with clear labels showing what product has details on an area of that region. You know, little boxes around the map with lines and arrow pointing at specific spots. >Is it me or does this sound like an excellent net.project? Anyone interested? I certainly have the software available to handle it. The only thing we need are maps, which is the problematic part, since we can't use TSR's. >If anyone has any ideas, or is interested, let me know. It sounds quite nice to me, and we could even give it a nicer twist: As we cannot use TSR copyright maps, what about composing some cool maps which imitate illuminated Middle-Ages maps (something in the style of the "Old Traladaran" artwork presented in "Karameikos Kingdom of Adventure")? I have access to many datafiles containing images from old manuscripts with cute maps, dragons, nymphs and the things which were written on the margins of the maps which Columbus and Marco Polo used. We would need some people to draw the coast outlines of the maps and then we could patch some artwork and symbols from real-world images. We could draw them, too. It could be compiled into a netbook with bitmap links to text documents which detail the Mystara resources to the place (along with a brief description, perhaps). I could even include some commentaries from Mystaran cartographers and adventurers and be published as a supplement to the Almanac year 1000 and something. I can help you locating medieval map files (in the Net) and scan some images, too (advantages of being an Antique and Medieval Librarian in the real world), but please look for some pepole who can draw. I am terribly bad! Thrilled with your idea, Virgilios Nikomenos Former Court Poet of Thyatis Empire; Playwright and part-time Scholar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:00:08 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Mlevy wrote: >Actually, I meant that "race" itself is an ideological concept, and the origin of the "demi-humans" and "humanoids" in D&D, with their genetic differences in character and alignment, and their perpetual racial antagonisms, are derived from fantasy sources, particularly Tolkein, which reflect RW racial ideologies. Okay so far. It is not a coincidence that the >great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. Whah?? You make a rather strong statement here! >Understand that I am not saying these guys were Nazis, but they certainly weren't liberals either. Tolkein was quoted as saying that he thought the idea of the Aryan Master Race was a wonderful one, although he didn't like the way Hitler had "corrupted" it, and Lovecraft wrote essays supporting the KKK and bad poetry about the "inferiority" of blacks. Now Matt, you have never given me a source for your Tolkien quote! The basic idea >of post-Tolkein fantasy - good, lawful, and noble humans, elves, and dwarves vs. the scurrilous, inferior orc/goblin hordes of chaos - is more or less a metaphor for European racism and imperialism, particularly the conflict between the West and the Middle East. But the more I think of this the more I recall that orcs are more suggestive of the worst of humans while elves and dwarves certainly have their own faults. The high men are not us. This is an important thing to remember. It is suggested toward the end of the trilogy that the high men are a dying sub race of man. They are more a noble example for us to look Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:38:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #187 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 39098edc90961bca889c46fda283595c up toward. I do not believe Tolkien ever meant to suggest that the high men exist today in any form. >Now I feel like I should clarify one thing: I am not "worried" about Mystaran races per se. I think that these racist origins are a part of the game of D&D, but that doesn't mean that one should be ashamed of the game or of the world of Mystara or anything so guilty. I just find it interesting to see how different the values from which the game was spawned are from those that I consciously espouse, and I wonder sometimes what is going on with it at a subconscious level. I find this fascinating, and I enjoy D&D in a somewhat ironic fashion because of it. And I think that this irony can help at interesting complexity and added fun to the game because of this. It is funny the differences in the way you and I look at this. We both see the same thing but our interpretations are totally different. I agree with you that the idea of racial bonuses or penalties is one that should make us uncomfortable. Is it racism? I don't believe it is. I don't believe the differences in the fantasy races make one superior to another. Are there not differences in real life races? I mean physical difference? Blacks have higher arches in their feet and Asians have eyefolds. I would say that neither of these characteristics make one inferior or superior. Taking the argument a different direction: Do racists specifically point to physical differences in races to explain why one race is superior? I have never heard a racist use so much logic whether he is white or black. In short, I do not consider the D&D rules racist simply because judgements are not made on the differences. But like I said, we should be uncomfortable with these differences. >>>so I've discussed with Daly the proposition that D&D is in many ways a subtly racist and imperialistic game. >>What things have you spotted to be sign of racism or imperialism ? I can think in some of them but i'd love to read what you have discovered. I'm sure you have been more subtle. >Well, I think the biggest example is in the goblinoid races. These races are sometimes equated with "barbaric" or "savage" RW cultures, but never with "civilized" ones (with the exception of Kol's Kobolds). The Red Orcs are a nasty stereotype of Native Americans (admittedly counterbalanced to some extent by the humans of Atruaghin), the Yellow Orcs are a nasty version of Mongols (again, opposed to the more respectable Ethengars), and the Kara-kara of X8 are pretty obviously intended as a mockery of Melanesians. Overall TSR has been careful when it creates *human* cultures based on RW non-western groups to always try to be positive and "multi-cultural" (which has its own problems), but there is definitely an inherent bias in the use of non-humans. Think about what it would be like, for instance, if there were English or French or Spanish or German-speaking Orcs, or Bugbears ... hard to picture, right? Actually not at all. I rather like the idea. I don't know about anyone else, but when a RW language is used in the KW, I do not equate it with that KW culture. For instance, I do not consider the Ethengarians to be related to the Mongols at all. Yes, their culture resembles it. But when I think Ethengar, I do not think Mongol. But we have >feline and dog-headed European cultures on Mystara ... because Rakasta and Lupins have been portrayed as noble and good. Orcs, who are inherently >evil, can be native americans, or asians, or pacific islanders, but not europeans. catch my drift? Well there are "Spanish" humanoids in the Red Steel setting. And further, different KW countries are at times ally or adversary of the pc. I can think of no culture that is not represented by both human and humanoid. Unless one considers that there are no noble, horseback riding orcs... In any case, all cultures have had their good and bad sides. It goes with the territory of being human. It is nice to have a "race" or "species" that can be normally evil. Gives the pcs something to be heroic about. At the same time, I do not consider it heroic to mindlessly slaughter every living thing even if you do believe it is inherently evil. Everything should be given a chance to reform. But no human or demi-human culture in the KW is always good. That has to be pointed out. There is this idea that while dwarves create beautiful things as a whole, there are individual humans who can far surpass them in creation. While elves as a race can all become proficient in magic, there are individual humans who can far surpass them in this field. This is both the great strength and the great weakness of humans. While humans can individually surpass the other races in skills, they can also surpass them in evil. I am rather uncomfortable using the term "race" at all to describe the different groups. It has a very specific meaning for us that is not applied here. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:05:59 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 01:22 PM 3/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >The following is a message from the Net-Almanac editor Micheal Roy >>I've been going over Mystara for the purpose of determining weather paterns and I've discovered several SERIOUS PROBLEMS with it. >>The following works fine: I have a better, IMO, solution: The weather changing magics of Alphatia have done odd things to those lands to the west. Most inclimate weather gets stuck out at sea, but warm fronts become prevalent in Norwold. Of course, after WotI, all heck will likely break loose... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:08:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 08:03 AM 3/22/98 -0800, you wrote: >Michael - >hey how about a new Mystaran monster: The Frost Camel! then, we can write up "The Ecology of the Tropical War Walrus" I love it! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:39:45 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >Immortal (unless Mark of Amber reduced him). But all Immortals achieved immortality with their magic. Etienne achieved it with the Radiance from the NoS which is one reason other Immortals didn't trust him since he didn't come by immortality 'honestly' as they see it. Last time I looked, most Immortals achieved Immortality with the help of their patrons. Not many of them actually used magic in the process. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 03:54:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ten reasons why Master Terari is the coolest high-level wizard At 10:39 AM 3/23/98 +0200, you wrote: >Last time I looked, most Immortals achieved Immortality with the help of their patrons. Not many of them actually used magic in the process. No, what I meant was all magic users achived immortality by magic just like fighters achieved it with their fighting skill. That Etienne achieved it without a patron is an achievement but so did Benekander and possibly older immortals. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:52:50 +0100 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Hi! >The elves of Alfheim controlling their weather could also affect Ylaruam and that also shows that this tampering with natural weather systems could cause problems elsewhere. Is this not even canon? I have the idea, that one explanation for the strange climate situation in the KW was the weather magic of the Alfhein elves. So they cast a very powerful weather spell to make the Canolbarthforest very lush and green, but they also tempered with the climate of the surrounding nations (involuntarily). So that´s the explanation (at least IMO) why there can be a desertnation next to a cold viking-nation. ************************************************************ Peter "Mr. XXL" Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien 9003307@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs ************************************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:36:55 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Races (long) Hi! Here are some races I've made for using GURPS with Mystara. I haven't tested any of these yet, but comments are welcome. Player Character Races of MYSTARA (for GURPS) The following races are made using GURPS Fantasy Folk and GURPS Basic. Descriptions of Advantages/Disadvantages can be found in those books. Note that names such as Kantáhri and Buhrf/Buhrwarf are taken from my own campaign. Humans No modifictaions Centaur (Kantáhri) Split ST: Upper body ST +3, No Jumping/Lower body Enhanced ST 26, no fine manipulators (61) IQ-1 (-10) HT +2 (20) Alertness +1 (5) DR+1 (3) Enhanced move (running) x1 (10) 4 legs (5) Inconvenient size (-10) Overconfidence (-10) Phobia: Mild Claustrophobia (–15) Stubborn (–5) Animal Handling at IQ (4) Jumping at DX (1) Running at HT (4) Survival Plains at IQ (2) Total=65 Dryad (Hama-dryad) The following are Hama-dryads. Normal Dryads are bound to their tree (must always be withinh 240’ of their soultree,) and are thus unsuitable in normal campaigns. Magical Aptitude (15) Knack: Charm (20) Innate spell: Plant form (4) Attractive appearance (5) Notes: Dryads Sorcerors who specialize in Plant spells. All Dryads are female. Total=45 (44) Dwarf (Denwarf) HT +1 (10) Magic Resistance 2 (6) Toxin Resistance 2 (6) Extended Lifespan (5) Hard to kill 1(5) Infravision (15) Depth Perception (5) Reduced Move 1 (-10) Intolerance of Goblins (-1) Dislikes Sorcery (-1) Suspicious of Elves (-1) Never shave Beards (-1) Notes: Dwarf Sorceros exist but may only learn Earth, Enchantment and Technology spells. Moulder Dwarves may know other spells. Total=30 (33) Elf ST-1 (-10) DX +1 (10) IQ+1 (10) Attractive Appearance (5) Nightvision (10) Vision +3 (6) Combat Reflexes (15) Extended Lifespan (5) Magical Aptitude (15) No sense of Immediacy (-1) Code of Honor (To live elegant lives) (-10) Sense of Duty (Nature) (-15) Notes: Elven Sorcerors specialize in Weather, Plant and Animal spells Elves may know "Knacks" without Unusual background. Elves stand between 5 and 5 1/2 feet tall. (150-165cm) Total=40 Elf, Shadowelf Shadowelves are similar to normal elves in most respects. However their Nightvision has been replaced with Infravision and they are sensitive to sunlight. Notes: The Shadowelves are very fair skinned, have larger ears than the surface elves and have very high pitched voices. They stand about 5’ (150cm)tall Total=45 Faun (Satyr) ST –2 (-15) DX+3 (30)| HT +1 (10) Alertness +2 (10) Animal Empathy (5) Musical ability +2 (2) Lecherousness (-15) Reputation –1 (-5) Carousing at HT (2) Scrounging at IQ (1) Notes: All Fauns are male. Faun mages cast spells by playing the flutes. Popular spells are Emotion and Plant Growth. Total=25 Gnome (Buhrwarf / Buhrf) DX +1 (10) Infravision (15) Toxin Resistance (6) Reduced Move 1 (-5) Hate Kobolds (-1) Hate Gremlins (-1) Never forget a favour or injury (-1) Notes: Earth Gnome Sorcerors usually know only Earth, Illusion & Creation and Technology spells Sky Gnome Sorcerors usually know only Air, Illusion & Creation and Technology spells Total=20 (23) Hin (Halfling) ST-3 (-30) DX+2 (20) HT+1 (10) Silence 2(10) Magic Resistance 2 (6) Toxin Resistance 2 (6) Knack: Denial (as Counterspell, can only be used within the Five Shires) (0) Code of Honor (Hospitality) (-5) Reduced Move 1 (-10) Reputation 1 of Being good Neighbours (+5) Notes: Only Hin Masters may learn Magic There are no Hin Clerics Total=10 (12) Hsiao (sh-HOW) IQ+1 (10) Claws (15) Claws allow for many tasks such as writing, but does not allow for wielding weapons. Flight; winged (30) Sharp teeth; beak (5) Compulsive behaviour (seek solitude) (-15) Honesty (-10) Flight at DX (1) Notes:all Hisao are clerics. Total=36 Treant ST +2 (20) IQ +1 (10) Chameleon lvl 1 (7) Does not eat or drink (10) DR: 5 (10) Innate spell: Animate Plants at IQ (4) Magical Aptitude (15) No Neck and No Vitals (10) Speak with Animals and Plants (15) Dependeny to water, daily (-15) Inconvenient size (-15) Reduced Move x2 (-10) Sense of Duty (Nature (-15) Vulnerability level 1 to Fire (-10) Notes: Many Treants are masters of alchemy, especially well known for their elexirs of Healing. Total=36 Wood imp ST-5 (-40) DX+3 (30) HP-4 (-20) Animal empathy with spiders (5) Intolerance to woodland creatures (-10) Fragile (-20) Stealth at DX (2) +2 to Hide, +3 to stealth (0) Total=-53 SAVAGE COAST Races Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Hin also exist in the lands of the Savage Coast. Here are some other races unique to that area. Lizardkin; Cayma (Cayman) DX+2 (20) ST-4 (-30) max ST 13 IQ -1 (-10) Infravision (15) Teeth (5) Amphibious Incovenient size (-15) DR 1(3) Note: They are about 1’ (30cm) tall. Total=-10 (12) Lizardkin; Gurrash (Gatorman) ST+2 (20) HT+2 (20) IQ -2 (-15) Infravision (15) Teeth; Cutting damage according to ST (5) Striker (tail) (5) Amphibious (10) DR 2 (6) Intolerannce (-10) Bad Temper (-10) Bloodlust (-10) Notes: They are about 8’ (240cm)tall. Total=35 (36) Lizardkin; Shazak (Lizardman) ST+1 (10) IQ -1 (-10) Infravision (15) Teeth (5) Claws(15) Amphibious (10) DR 2 (6) Total=50 (51) Lupin ST +1 (10) IQ –1 (-10) Bite attack (5) Penetrating call (5) Detect Invisible/Ethereal (15) Discriminatory smell (15) Acute Hearing +1 (2) Acute smell/taste +1 (2) Intolerance to werewolves (attacks on sight) (-10) Vulnerability to odor based attacks level 1 (-10) Vulnerability to wolfsbane level 1 (-10) They have racially leaned Tracking at IQ (2) Intolerance of Goblinoids (-1) Dislikes Phanatons (-1) Total=10 (12) Rakasta DX +1 (10) Wis –1 (-10) Tail; 4-6 ft (0) Claws; +2 to punching damage (15) Sleepy (-10) Must spend 50% of it’s time asleep. Detect Invisible/Ethereal (15) Alertness (5) Acute hearing +1(2) Acute Vision +1 (2) Gentleman’s code of Honour (-10) Vulnerability: sonic level 2 (-6) Proud (-1) Intolerance to Goblinoids (-1) Total= 10(11) Tortle DX –1 (-10) Infravision (15) Claws (Puncing +2) (15) Shell DR 3 againts normal attacks, DR 5 against everything when retracted into shell. (6) Enhanced move(swimming) x1 (5) Peaceful (-1) Total=30 Tortle; Snapper Snappers are very similar to tortles. However, the cannot retract into their shells and they suffer from Bad temper (-10), and Intolerance to Tortles. (-5) They also have a bite attack (5) Total=20 Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #187 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 188 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Monsters Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:39:53 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Monsters The following are quick reference "monster" descriptions made for a GURPS Mystara campaign. Names in parantheses are Norwegian. Ape, Snow (Snøape) ST: 14 DX: 13 IQ: 7 HT: 12 Move/Dodge: 7/7 PD/DR: 0/0 Damage: Club: 2d+1 Weapon skill: 13 May grapple in close combat. Ape, White (Hvit ape) ST: 14 DX: 13 IQ: 6 HT: 14 Move/Dodge:7/7 PD/DR: 0/0 Damage: Claws 2d cutting, Thrown Rock 1d-1 crushing Weaponskill: 13 Brownie/Redcap (Nisse) ST: 7 (1d-3/1d-3) DX: 12 IQ: 10 HT: 8 Move/Dodge:5/5 PD/DR: 0/0 Damage: Weaponskill: Dagger 13, Sling 14 Brownies are ca 75cm tall Can become Invisible at will along with all his belongings. +9 to Stealth. Ghoul (Ghul) ST: 13 (1d/2d-1) DX: 14 IQ: 8 HT: 15 Move/Dodge: 5/5 PD/DR: 0/0 Damage: 1d cut (claws)+Paralysis. When wounded, victim must roll vs HT or be paralyzed. Size: 1 Claws 14. Ghouls often make Reckless attacks. Ghouls are never stunned, feels no pain. They continues to fight if crippled. The spell is broken at HT 0, and Ghoul is destroyed. Giant, Athach (Kjempe, Athach) ST: 60 (7d-1/9d) DX: 13 IQ: 8 HT: 16/50 Move/Dodge: 7/7 PD/DR: 2/3 Damage: 3 clubs (9d+1), bite (3d) 3 bashes +1 bite(w poison) Victim must make a successful HT roll or become helpless for 1d6 minutes. Dislike other giant creatures. Griffon (Griff) ST: 30 DX: 14 IQ: 5 HT: 15:20-25 Move/Dodge: 6/6 Flying: 15 PD/DR: 1/1 Damage: 2d-1 (Pecking, clawing) Hellhound (Helveteshund) ST: 20 DX: 14 IQ: 5 HT:15/20 Move/Dodge: 9/7 PD/DR: 1/2 Damage: Bite:1d, Ice Breath 1d, treat armour as DR1 versus this attack. Detect invisible. Extremely acute smell/taste Hobgoblin ST: 13 (1d/2d-1) DX: 12 IQ:10 HT:12 Move/Dodge: 6/6 PD/DR:6/4 (Chainmail) Block/Parry 7/7 Damage: Sword: (1d+1/2d), crossbow Weapon skill: 13, shield 14 Kobold ST: 8 DX: 12 IQ: 9 HT: 8 Move/Dodge: 5/5; Parry/Block: 6/6 PD/DR: 2 or 4/2 - -Damage: broadsword (cut 1d-2; cr 1d-1) 12; short bow (imp 1d-3) 11 - -Armour: leather armour (PD2/DR2), small shield (PD2) - -Bow 10, broadsword 12, knife 11, shield 12 Leprechaun ST: 5 (1d-5/1d-5) DX: 13 IQ: 10 HT: 6 Move/Dodge: 4/4; Parry/Block: 6/0 PD/DR: 1/0 - -Damage 1 - - Bow: 13, Broadsword(tiny) 12, Stealth: 15 - -All Leprechauns have Magical Aptitude level 1 or more. They specialize in the Enchantment college, but some also know spells from the following colleges: Plant, Animal, Mind Control, Ilusion & Creation and Communication. - - All Leprechauns may become invisible at will, including the equipment they carry. This power cannot be used if someone is looking at them. +9 to Stealth when invisible. - -Leprechauns are ca 7-8 cm tall. Ogre (Rise, Ogur) ST: 16 (1d+1/2d+2) DX: 13 IQ:10 HT:15/15-20 Move/Dodge: 12/12 Parry/Block: 7/7 PD/DR:4/2 Damage: Sword: 2d+3, Great Axe 2d+5 Weapon skill: 13 Shield: 14 Owlbear (Uglebjørn) ST: 28 DX: 13 IQ: 5 HT: 14/14-18 Move/Dodge: 7/6 PD/DR: 1/2 Damage: Bite 1d+2, cutting damage, Claws 1d+2, May grapple (bear hug) in close combat. Sasquatch Also known as Abominable Snowman, Bigfoot(in Rockhome) or Yeti(In Glantri.) ST: 24 (2d+1/4d-2) DX: 13 IQ: 8 HT: 14/16-20) Move/Dodge: 7/7 PD/DR: 2/3 Damage: 2d+1 claw Attack: skill: 13 Stirge (Blodfugl) (as per GURPS Basic) ST: 3 DX: 17 IQ: 4 HT: 12/3-5 Move/Dodge: 12/7 (Speed is 1 grounded) PD/DR: 2/0 Damage: 1d-3 (if it hits it starts sucking for 1 hit eevry 10th round Attack: skill: 17 Thoul (Thul) ST: 15 (1d+1/2d+1) DX: 13 IQ: 10 HT: 12 Move/Dodge: 5/5 PD/DR: 0/0 Damage: claws 1d+1; skill 13 Regular bow: 1d+2; skill 14 Broadsword: cut 2d+1 Regenerates 1 Hp every 6th round untill it is killed. Does not regenerate fire or acid damage. Unicorn (Enhjørning) (as per GURPS Fantasy) ST: 35-40 DX: 15 IQ: 5 HT: 15-17 Move/Dodge: 12/7 PD/DR: 1/1 Damage: 2d+1 imp. (slamming attack, if DX contest is won by 8 or more, then the vitim suffers maximum damage) Perception: 18 It can also kick(1d+2 crushing) and bite( 1d crush) as a horse. Parry: 7 Wolf (Ulv) (as per GURPS Basic) ST: 9 DX: 14 IQ: 5 HT:12 Move/Dodge: 9/7 PD/DR: 1/1 Damage: Bite:1d-2 Wolf, Ice (Frostulv) ST: 20 DX: 14 IQ: 5 HT:15 Move/Dodge: 9/7 PD/DR: 1/2 Damage: Bite:1d, Ice Breath 1d, treat armour as DR1 versus this attack. Wolf, Dire wolf (Varg) ST: 15 DX: 14 IQ: 5 HT:14 Move/Dodge: 9/7 PD/DR: 1/2 Damage: Bite:1d-1 Wyvern (Linnorm) ST: 25 DX: 14 IQ: 6 HT: 14/24-30 Move/Dodge:20/10 PD/DR: 2/3 Damage: Stinger: 1d+2(+poison) Poison can be resisted with a HT-6 roll. Failure results in 2d damage, Victim is at DX-6 for the next 3 days. If successful damage is halved and victim is at Dx-2 for the next 3 days. Talons are used in close combat to grab victims. (Damage: 1d-1) Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:58:29 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 11:23 22-03-98 -0600, galwylin wrote: >This needs to be changed I feel. Having a gate to the plane of fire somewhere in Ylaruam is fine but I dislike the idea of a 'weatherman' Immortals. The elves of Alfheim controlling their weather could also affect Ylaruam and that also shows that this tampering with natural weather systems could cause problems elsewhere. Interesting, this might mean that since the weathermagics of Alfheim failed, then rain has perhaps returned to Ylaruam, however for a short period. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:15:08 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft At 17:02 20-03-98 -0600, galwylin wrote: GGreetings! >I thought I'd let you all know (with the recent discussion of Terari) that I've decided to set up a Mystara Net Project, namely the Karameikan School of Magecraft. I created a page (on Geocities since they now have 6MB available free) for the School and plan to have listing of staff, classes, spells, creatures from the School. This a really interesting idea, but just one minor problem. Is this with the AD&D or the D&D rules or do we use both, so that some monsters and spells are with the AD&D rules, while others are with the D&D rules. I'll vote for the last part, so there is room for us all (and to support the GURPS players I would even suggest that what is received is printed in the rules it is received, but then again there might a problem with space or perhaps this is no problem at all, I hope so and I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time). And ofcourse I would like to support this, I´m already working on some ideas about Traladaran village magic. The whole idea is that untill Stefan Karameikos arrived, then magic was poorly developed, only a few high-level spells and many of the lower were not as effective as the now present (well a traladaran magic missile is still a magic missile, but it require something more to cast and the sleep spell is likewise not very effective in combat, but more on that once I am finished). Now a day the Traladaran village magic is dying away, more effective spells has taken the place of the old ones, but there is a small class at the school, that still teaches the old Traladaran spells, even though they only know few and would pay good gold to adventurers who would travel from village to village searching for old spells. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >This needs to be changed I feel. Having a gate to the plane of fire somewhere in Ylaruam is fine but I dislike the idea of a 'weatherman' Immortals. The elves of Alfheim controlling their weather could also affect Ylaruam and that also shows that this tampering with natural weather systems could cause problems elsewhere. So, I don't see weather being control everywhere but only in small places by the inhabitants. Immortals can use weather but I wouldn't won't them to control all of it. Makes me wonder whose jurisdiction that falls under. I always thought the Northern Reaches are colder than surrounding areas because of height (hence the 'Reaches' part of the name). There has to be something natural about Mystara are there's nothing to fall back on when the rules don't gel correctly. Number 1) Mystara is a fantasy world, it doesn't have to be natural at all 2) we don't really know what's "natural" in this case anyway, since meteorology is a very inexact science and so far almost all of our information comes from just one planet (with a little bit from Mars and Venus and the Moon, I guess) - what exactly WOULD be the natural weather patterns for a planet with a hollow core containing a gate to the elemental plane of fire and a "gravity shield" inside of the circular crust, with huge gaps in the polar regions? how would weather work with a skyshield? 3) "I feel" and "I don't like" are not sufficient reasons to change the whole structure of the world, and it is very clear that weather on Mystara ... as well as even bigger things, like the sun, are indeed subject to immortal control. In this particular case, canon is on my side, and your attempt at common-sense applications of RW physics is just not compelling. 4) the thing to fall back on when the rules don't work is enlightened creativity. i say if the problem is knowing whose jurisdiction the weather falls under, let's make it up! I propose a meeting of the "meteorological council of pandius" - Thor, Protius, Ixion, Djaea, and Ordana are called, with all others you can think of. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:00:20 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< anyway i think that's actually pretty comprehensive. not all characters wwith class abilities would come from the adventurer social class however; others like intellectuals and soldiers might tend often to have levels. I think if a concept like this was extended right it might come to replace the standard D&D class system altogether, but that's more headache than it's worth for some. Anyway if anyone has comments on this please let me know. >> >Hm, I'm not sure in which direction you are heading, but it seems that you want to reduce the number of levels. I would prefer to create more levels. There are some conclusions from the level system that I don't like. In an army the officers always have more levels than the sergeants and the corporals and these have more levels than normal soldiers. Why? >Why can a sergeant not be around level 8 and his lieutenant level 4 or 5? Imagine the old sergeant who has served for over 20 years and a young officer, fresh from the academy. I know the main reason against would be the money for XPs. OTOH a character from the Sea of Grass need not to earn a single coin to become mighty and famous. Actually I agree with you about this one whole-heartedly; Fabrizio and I had a big argument about it once. :) Anyway, what I am doing now is a little bit different, but directed towards the same goal. The standard AD&D theory is that PC's are a type of supermen who are pretty rare in the average population, and thus should have better stats and higher levels than ordinary people, who are almost always 0-levels (even soldiers). The standard OD&D theory is that just about everybody has a class and level and fairly high level characters are pretty common, but level is closely tied to rank and social status. I don't really buy either of these. On the one hand I want PC's to not stand out from the average population so much (I don't play marvel super heroes for a reason), and on the other I want level to be tied to experience, not to rank. I also want levels overall in the game to be lower - one thing I never liked about Mystara was its mega-high level characters. So what I wanted to do was to come up with a system of generating average people so they wouldn't all just have one of the adventurer character classes, but they wouldn't be 4 hit point putzes either. I like the idea that a master guildsmen can have a lot of skills and maybe even be hard to kill but is not a great warrior or wizard. anyway i am open to any and all suggestions still, and i agree with you about the ranks of military officers. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:07:20 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) I think you missed my point. You seem to be trying pretty hard to fit all the different "types" into this scheme of academic-merchant-laborer, which sound like it really ought to be intellectual-bourgeoisie-proletariat. part of the reason i came up with this list is that these Marxist industrial revolution concepts of social classes don't work for a medieval setting - the aristocracy would certainly NOT have been lumped in with merchants, and the peasantry and craftsmen were not just laborers ... the social structure was more complex than your system reflects. plus which, i wanted to make a chart whereby you could generate specific types of random npcs pretty quickly ... as opposed to the three types of academic, merchant, and laborer, which tell me next to nothing. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >Let's test my Academic/Merchant/Laborer scheme out on this list of social classes: >In a message dated 98-03-22 11:45:02 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >>The list I came up with was the >>following: >>1) the vast majority of the population would be peasants (whether serfs or free, including herdsmen and farm laborers of all types) >These would be Laborers. >>there would be a very few nobles (who would be divided between active cavaliers, landowners, courtiers, and the idle rich) >Some would have standard classes and kits, while those with no apparent "adventuring" abilities would be members of the "Merchant" class (which really should be renamed, as it basically covers everybody who is not a Laborer, Academic, or adventurer). >>then came a list of other classes in society: 2) soldiers (anyone who makes a living in the army, whether a combatant or not) >Combatants would be Fighters; others would be classified by actual job. >>3) officials (including both royal and local administrators, as well as a Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:13:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #188 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 4e715ea2734ea6fa9d105153bb27937a >>large number of clerics) >Divide these folks up between Academics and "Merchants". Some officials may be Wizards or Priests. >>4) criminals (including all sorts of ruffians, urchins, and prostitutes who might not actually be of the thief class) >These could be members of any of the three "normal" classes, although that "Merchant" class would be the most common and the "Academic" class would be least common. >>5) tradesmen (including artisans, craftsmen, and anyone who lives primarily by skilled manual labor) >These would be Laborers. >>6) unskilled laborers (relatively few in a country like Karameikos, and most of these would be convicts) >If they are truly unskilled, they should be level 0 types. Or they could be members of another class whose skills they cannot be paid for practicing. >>7) domestics (including both household servants, and housewives of whatever social class) >These would be "Merchants" -- they have to work hard, but the job does not require a great deal of brute physical strength. >>8) entertainers (all the way from street-circus performers to famous troubadours) >Definitely "Merchants" if not actual Rogues (Bards). >>9) intellectuals (not just academics, but also schoolteachers and various types of wandering philosophers) >These would be "Academics", with a few Wizards and Priests thrown in. >>10) frontiersmen (away from the city, all those types of backwoods characters who either make a living from the wilderness or shun civilization altogether, including religious hermits, trappers, and goblin-hunters) >All three "Normal" classes could be found here. Hermits are "Academics", although they undoubtedly have more Survival-type skills than their urban counterparts. >>11) merchants (including peddlers, shopkeepers, guild representatives, etc.) >These would be true "Merchants". >>12) sailors (naval, merchant marine, privateers, pirates) >Many of these would be Fighters (or Mariners from "Tales of the Lance"). Laborers and members of other adventuring classes may also be found in these jobs. >>13) the most rare type of all - the true adventurer (meaning anyone who makes a living primarily by risky swashbuckling of whatever variety) >Of course the standard rules cover this rarest type.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:24:07 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: Hi Leroy. >The Fundamental includes a quote from a Mystaran adventurer/scholar. >OK, so it ain't exactly a new Gazetteer... What's the quote? I think it's great that Plansescape hasn't totally forgotten about us. However I still feel that Mystara should be considered another dimension. sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:46:39 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara I have one comment about the following statement: >>-90 degrees North: the NORTH POLE, hits just before the island of Frosthaven of Norwold. Hyborea actually reaches up to about 110 degrees! That's simply impossible. By the definition of how the Latitudinal marks are specified, you CANNOT have more than 90 degrees at north and south pole. Unlike Longtitude, which is defined by the division of the globe into 360 angular slices, centered on the North-South axis of the planet and starting (by internationally agreement) at the slice which goes through some point in Greenwich Village, UK, Latitude is defined as the position of a point on the earth's surface in relation to the Equator. Thus to determine how many degrees of Latitude you have, you measure the vertical angle formed between two lines drawn from the very center of the global sphere (i.e., along the North-South axis and located on the plane defined by the equator). One line is drawn from the centre point along the equatorial plain and the other line is drawn from the centre point out to the point on the globe's surface that is to be measured. The vertical angle between these two lines gives you the degrees of latitude of that point. Diagram: point north pole \ | \ | angle/\ | equator _______/__\| centre of global sphere As you can see, you can never have more than a 90 degree angle using this method, thus, the north and south poles must always be at +90 and -90 degrees lattitude. I'd have to re-read the arguments to see if this makes the problem about Mystara weather patterns (based on latitudinal position) worse or better, but I thought it was important that this fact be passed on. I'd also like to comment on the fact that because of the 'magically created' microclimates in Mystara, such as the weather over the forest of the Alfheim Elves and the desert conditions of Yalaraum would probably have profound (and otherwise unexpected) effects on the non-magically altered weather of surrounding areas (such as Norwold and the Northern Reaches). Also, the existance of a 'hole' into the Hollow world at both poles could also be responsible for oddities in the weather patterns. Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:42:26 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Map-Based Index of Mystara Products On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Mystarans, >I was organizing some of my maps (I have a vast number of poster- sized maps from TSR products), and while doing so I grabbed some random Mystara map from it's sleeve (I keep 'em all in binders, in clear plastic sleeves. Very handy.) Good idea :) >So, what is my point? Looking back down at the map, an idea hit me: a map-based index. That is, a map, or maps, of regions of Mystara with clear labels showing what product has details on an area of that region. You know, little boxes around the map with lines and arrow pointing at specific spots. >Is it me or does this sound like an excellent net.project? Anyone interested? I certainly have the software available to handle it. The only thing we need are maps, which is the problematic part, since we can't use TSR's. >If anyone has any ideas, or is interested, let me know. An even better idea! Hand drawn maps could work. Its not really that difficult and tyhey dont have too be too accurate. I've been doing some myself, though I'm not totally happy with them. I could do some more, but I'm really busy these days, so it would probably be better if someone else volunteered for the job. Anyway this sounds really interesting and I hope we'll see it on web soon. I know there are planty of creative people out there. sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:02:02 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >I have one comment about the following statement: >>>-90 degrees North: the NORTH POLE, hits just before the island of Frosthaven of Norwold. Hyborea actually reaches up to about 110 degrees! >That's simply impossible. By the definition of how the Latitudinal marks are specified, you CANNOT have more than 90 degrees at north and south pole. as I was trying to point out before, whoever did the Hollow World maps is not using any normal definition of Latitude. They readjusted the measurements so that 90 degrees falls at the lip of the dark lands, not at the pole (which doesn't exist). if you wanted to redo the latitudes so that they match the definition in the RW, you are welcome to, but this shouldn't involve stretching the dimensions of the actual planet, just moving the lines! peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 11:12:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) I don't really want to replace the standard four classes, just add to them. Over on rec.games.frp.advocacy someone suggested that everyone can pretty much be lumped into two very broad classes: those who use magic (wizards and clerics) and those who don't (the fighter/theif types). Almost all adventurers can fall easily into the four standard classes, except for possibly swashbucklers (light armor but good fighters). It seems to me that most "normals" can be fitted into a 4-6 broad categories. In fact, each class corresponds to an ability score, so maybe all we need are the non-combat versions of those classes: Laborers (STR, fighter counterpart) include farmers, miners, woodcutters, wagon-drivers, and so forth. These people are usually stolid, reliable, hardworking folk who form the backbone of society. Scholars (INT, wizard counterpart) include scribes, architects, engineers, navigators, sages, and accountants. They are probably the smallest segment of society, but are responsible for its technical development. Teachers (WIS, cleric counterpart) are especially good at dealing with people and problems; they include merchants, politicians, sea-captains, judges, teachers, historians, animal trainers, storytellers, and probably housewives. Such people are shrewd and practical. Most extreme liberals or conservatives come from this group. Artisans (DEX, thief counterpart) include woodcarvers, tailors, glassblowers, musicians, jugglers, horsemen, sailors and acrobats. This gives eight primary classes which can describe almost anyone in society. Note that this is not an attempt to divide society into social classes, but rather classify them by function and aptitude. Members of each of these classes can be found at all levels of society. Remember that not everyone is ideally gifted for their profession (imagine a farm worker from the "scholar" class who is bored and scrawny, who dreams of going to the city but will never be able to afford it.) Applying them to your categories: >1) the vast majority of the population would be peasants (whether serfs or free, including herdsmen and farm laborers of all types) there would be a very few nobles (who would be divided between active cavaliers, landowners, courtiers, and the idle rich) then came a list of other classes in society: Most male peasants are going to be laborers, and most females will be teachers. There will also be artisans of both sexes, but very few scholars. Nobles will usually come from the "teacher" class, but many are born into it and come from other classes (imagine a big dumb noble who is a crappy politician, who'd make a great farmer and who finds simple physical work to be a relaxing change from all that boring court life...) >2) soldiers (anyone who makes a living in the army, whether a combatant or not) Fighters. >3) officials (including both royal and local administrators, as well as a large number of clerics) Mostly the "teacher" class, but there will be a smattering of others. >4) criminals (including all sorts of ruffians, urchins, and prostitutes who might not actually be of the thief class) These will be of all types. Many ruffians and thugs are fighters or laborers with a bad attitude, and a shrewd teacher-urchin might talk people out of their money instead of stealing it. >5) tradesmen (including artisans, craftsmen, and anyone who lives primarily by skilled manual labor) Artisans mostly, though there will be representatives of all types. A "teacher" might not have great skill, but makes up for it with wisdom and perception. >6) unskilled laborers (relatively few in a country like Karameikos, and most of these would be convicts) Mostly laborers,and misfits from other types. >7) domestics (including both household servants, and housewives of whatever social class) Usually the teacher archetype, since they have broad competency and a lot of practical homespun wisdom, as well as strong communication and teaching skills (having raised half-a-dozen children). >8) entertainers (all the way from street-circus performers to famous troubadours) Usually dextrous artisan-types. >9) intellectuals (not just academics, but also schoolteachers and various types of wandering philosophers) Scholars and teachers. >10) frontiersmen (away from the city, all those types of backwoods characters who either make a living from the wilderness or shun civilization altogether, including religious hermits, trappers, and goblin-hunters) Could be almost anything, depending on what they do. Probably the best would be perceptive teacher-types or skilled artisans. Hermits are probably teachers or scholars, and hunters are obviously fighters. >11) merchants (including peddlers, shopkeepers, guild representatives, etc.) Usually shrewd teacher-types. >12) sailors (naval, merchant marine, privateers, pirates) Fighters or artisans, with the occasional odd duck. Captains are usually teachers, since they rely on wisdom and communication skills, and navigators are teachers or scholars. People can be hard to classify, so you need to be flexible. One merchant is a teacher-type and is a shrewd and audacious bargainer, while another is a rugged laborer who braves goblins in the wilderness and yet another is a calculating, miserly scholarly sort. In addition to these four broad classes, I'd also specify professional abilities. Both a laborer-woodsman and an artisan-woodsman can have certain thiefly skills like moving silently and climbing, but one is a good fighter and the other a superb woodcarver. Anyway, I think this concept might expand the possibilities a bit. The new classes should have other special "mundane" abilities (which I haven't figured out) to make up for adventuring skills. Any comments? Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #188 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, March 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 189 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara [was Re: Size of Mystara] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:06:38 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft At 05:15 PM 3/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >This a really interesting idea, but just one minor problem. Is this with the AD&D or the D&D rules or do we use both, so that some monsters and spells are with the AD&D rules, while others are with the D&D rules. I'll vote for the last part, so there is room for us all (and to support the GURPS players I would even suggest that what is received is printed in the rules it is received, but then again there might a problem with space or perhaps this is no problem at all, I hope so and I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time). Both D&D and AD&D spells will be posted as someone earlier asked me. Probably put anything for any system that has a large following for Mystara. >And ofcourse I would like to support this, I´m already working on some ideas about Traladaran village magic. The whole idea is that untill Stefan Karameikos arrived, then magic was poorly developed, only a few high-level spells and many of the lower were not as effective as the now present (well a traladaran magic missile is still a magic missile, but it require something more to cast and the sleep spell is likewise not very effective in combat, but more on that once I am finished). Now a day the Traladaran village magic is dying away, more effective spells has taken the place of the old ones, but there is a small class at the school, that still teaches the old Traladaran spells, even though they only know few and would pay good gold to adventurers who would travel from village to village searching for old spells. Good old fashioned Traladaran wizards are always welcomed! - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:02:22 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 04:58 PM 3/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >Interesting, this might mean that since the weathermagics of Alfheim failed, then rain has perhaps returned to Ylaruam, however for a short period. Well, I also think it's time for Al-Kalim's dream to start and the flowering of Ylaruam to begin. Of course, I would like to see the fabled gate to the plane of fire closed by adventures. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:14:30 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 08:48 AM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Number 1) Mystara is a fantasy world, it doesn't have to be natural at all We have to have some basis in fact though. A person can drown if he stays under water and hurricanes are destructive. These are facts that aren't controlled by Immortals and allows us to make assumptions about other facts. >2) we don't really know what's "natural" in this case anyway, since meteorology is a very inexact science and so far almost all of our information comes from just one planet (with a little bit from Mars and Venus and the Moon, I guess) - what exactly WOULD be the natural weather patterns for a planet with a hollow core containing a gate to the elemental plane of fire and a "gravity shield" inside of the circular crust, with huge gaps in the polar regions? how would weather work with a skyshield? I really wouldn't know but I'd rather think its natural rather than controlled by Immortals. >3) "I feel" and "I don't like" are not sufficient reasons to change the whole structure of the world, and it is very clear that weather on Mystara ... as well as even bigger things, like the sun, are indeed subject to immortal control. In this particular case, canon is on my side, and your attempt at common-sense applications of RW physics is just not compelling. I think they are very compelling reasons! After all, I play in Mystara because I like it. >4) the thing to fall back on when the rules don't work is enlightened creativity. i say if the problem is knowing whose jurisdiction the weather falls under, let's make it up! I propose a meeting of the "meteorological council of pandius" - Thor, Protius, Ixion, Djaea, and Ordana are called, with all others you can think of. That wasn't meant to be taken seriously because I just don't want Immortals controlling weather no more than I want them controlling death. There's no room for random chance if something so basic as weather is being controlled. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:45:59 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Frankly, beyond the convenience of having One stat=One type of character, I really don't see what use your system has. As you yourself point out, it still doesn't tell you anything about the actual status or specialized skills of the character - you might as well just say "this person has a high charisma" instead of creating a substance-less category to match that. The point of my profession based system was that it at least roughly reflects the categories that people in this medieval society would THEMSELVES use to divide people up, and furthermore it corresponds well with discrete sets of skills that such individuals would have access to. A person who lives in a farming community - whether they are wise, dextrous, strong, male or female, a homebody or a fieldhand - will have tons of general knowledge about agriculture and farm life that a laborer from the city will not have access to. Your categories give no way of reflecting this, but instead divide people up by "aptitude" rather than training. Reflecting "aptitude" as a pure level of ability is what the stats are for, not the profession. Another problem is that your characterization of the groupings you give below is based on modern concepts of social order - laborers being the "backbone of society", scholars being responsible for "technical development". Everything I know about medieval history tells me these are a-historical. Now certainly as far as Mystara goes you don't have to stick to the history, but IMHO if you are interested in getting a "medieval feel" for your campaign (remember I specifically mentioned Karameikos) you will want to have character-types that reflect a medieval social order as it understood itself, not through our modern sociological categories. So please don't try to fit my categories into your categories, because I specifically designed them as an alternative to the kind of system you suggest. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >I don't really want to replace the standard four classes, just add to them. Over on rec.games.frp.advocacy someone suggested that everyone can pretty much be lumped into two very broad classes: those who use magic (wizards and clerics) and those who don't (the fighter/theif types). Almost all adventurers can fall easily into the four standard classes, except for possibly swashbucklers (light armor but good fighters). It seems to me that most "normals" can be fitted into a 4-6 broad categories. In fact, each class corresponds to an ability score, so maybe all we need are the non-combat versions of those classes: >Laborers (STR, fighter counterpart) include farmers, miners, woodcutters, wagon-drivers, and so forth. These people are usually stolid, reliable, hardworking folk who form the backbone of society. >Scholars (INT, wizard counterpart) include scribes, architects, engineers, navigators, sages, and accountants. They are probably the smallest segment of society, but are responsible for its technical development. >Teachers (WIS, cleric counterpart) are especially good at dealing with people and problems; they include merchants, politicians, sea-captains, judges, teachers, historians, animal trainers, storytellers, and probably housewives. Such people are shrewd and practical. Most extreme liberals or conservatives come from this group. >Artisans (DEX, thief counterpart) include woodcarvers, tailors, glassblowers, musicians, jugglers, horsemen, sailors and acrobats. >This gives eight primary classes which can describe almost anyone in society. Note that this is not an attempt to divide society into social classes, but rather classify them by function and aptitude. Members of each of these classes can be found at all levels of society. Remember that not everyone is ideally gifted for their profession (imagine a farm worker from the "scholar" class who is bored and scrawny, who dreams of going to the city but will never be able to afford it.) Applying them to your categories: >>1) the vast majority of the population would be peasants (whether serfs or free, including herdsmen and farm laborers of all types) there would be a very few nobles (who would be divided between active cavaliers, landowners, courtiers, and the idle rich) then came a list of other classes in society: >Most male peasants are going to be laborers, and most females will be teachers. There will also be artisans of both sexes, but very few scholars. Nobles will usually come from the "teacher" class, but many are born into it and come from other classes (imagine a big dumb noble who is a crappy politician, who'd make a great farmer and who finds simple physical work to be a relaxing change from all that boring court life...) >>2) soldiers (anyone who makes a living in the army, whether a combatant or not) >Fighters. >>3) officials (including both royal and local administrators, as well as a large number of clerics) >Mostly the "teacher" class, but there will be a smattering of others. >>4) criminals (including all sorts of ruffians, urchins, and prostitutes who might not actually be of the thief class) >These will be of all types. Many ruffians and thugs are fighters or laborers with a bad attitude, and a shrewd teacher-urchin might talk people out of their money instead of stealing it. >>5) tradesmen (including artisans, craftsmen, and anyone who lives primarily by skilled manual labor) >Artisans mostly, though there will be representatives of all types. A "teacher" might not have great skill, but makes up for it with wisdom and perception. >>6) unskilled laborers (relatively few in a country like Karameikos, and most of these would be convicts) >Mostly laborers,and misfits from other types. >>7) domestics (including both household servants, and housewives of whatever social class) >Usually the teacher archetype, since they have broad competency and a lot of practical homespun wisdom, as well as strong communication and teaching skills (having raised half-a-dozen children). >>8) entertainers (all the way from street-circus performers to famous troubadours) >Usually dextrous artisan-types. >>9) intellectuals (not just academics, but also schoolteachers and various types of wandering philosophers) >Scholars and teachers. >>10) frontiersmen (away from the city, all those types of backwoods characters who either make a living from the wilderness or shun civilization altogether, including religious hermits, trappers, and goblin-hunters) >Could be almost anything, depending on what they do. Probably the best would be perceptive teacher-types or skilled artisans. Hermits are probably teachers or scholars, and hunters are obviously fighters. >>11) merchants (including peddlers, shopkeepers, guild representatives, etc.) >Usually shrewd teacher-types. >>12) sailors (naval, merchant marine, privateers, pirates) >Fighters or artisans, with the occasional odd duck. Captains are usually teachers, since they rely on wisdom and communication skills, and navigators are teachers or scholars. >People can be hard to classify, so you need to be flexible. One merchant is a teacher-type and is a shrewd and audacious bargainer, while another is a rugged laborer who braves goblins in the wilderness and yet another is a calculating, miserly scholarly sort. >In addition to these four broad classes, I'd also specify professional abilities. Both a laborer-woodsman and an artisan-woodsman can have certain thiefly skills like moving silently and climbing, but one is a good fighter and the other a superb woodcarver. >Anyway, I think this concept might expand the possibilities a bit. The new classes should have other special "mundane" abilities (which I haven't figured out) to make up for adventuring skills. Any comments? >Mike >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:32 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri and Ethengar << In any case, given that there are two other nations at least who practice weather modification (Alphatia and Alfhiem) then what you say is fine for YOUR campaign. But there is no canon source which suggests that even these three (if one includes Ethengar, though I have not checked the source on that one) are the only ones. >> I didn't say that. And the Glantri and Alfheim weather magic was not what I meant. What I meant was the ruler who uses mages to make the weather in his surroundings for his personal pleasure. Please tell me another if you can. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:02:21 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >At 08:48 AM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Number 1) Mystara is a fantasy world, it doesn't have to be natural at all >We have to have some basis in fact though. A person can drown if he stays under water and hurricanes are destructive. These are facts that aren't controlled by Immortals and allows us to make assumptions about other facts. We know that water drows and hurricanes destroy because it says so in the rules. We know that other very basic elements of RW physics are directly contradicted by the rules. The rules take precedence over RW physics. We can make educated guesses based on what's in the rules and perhaps sometimes draw upon the RW but we shouldn't go about changing Mystara to match the RW, because if we do that long enough it's not a fantasy world anymore. Plus which I don't believe it can be done (too hard). >>2) we don't really know what's "natural" in this case anyway, since meteorology is a very inexact science and so far almost all of our information comes from just one planet (with a little bit from Mars and Venus and the Moon, I guess) - what exactly WOULD be the natural weather patterns for a planet with a hollow core containing a gate to the elemental plane of fire and a "gravity shield" inside of the circular crust, with huge gaps in the polar regions? how would weather work with a skyshield? >I really wouldn't know but I'd rather think its natural rather than controlled by Immortals. Huh???? What the heck do you mean by natural? Explain to me how a world where gravity emanates from force fields but not mass and sunlight comes not from nuclear fusion but from an alternate plane of existence can be called "natural". Mystaran physics and weather are OBVIOUSLY not run by the same principles as the Earth. >>3) "I feel" and "I don't like" are not sufficient reasons to change the whole structure of the world, and it is very clear that weather on Mystara ... as well as even bigger things, like the sun, are indeed subject to immortal control. In this particular case, canon is on my side, and your attempt at common-sense applications of RW physics is just not compelling. >I think they are very compelling reasons! After all, I play in Mystara because I like it. fair enough. But now we are back to the whole "canon" discussion again. You don't have to be convinced by anything if you don't want to, but if you want to discuss Mystara as a fantasy world that we all SHARE, and you want to ask others to agree to CHANGE established FACTS about that world (such as the dimensions of the planet, or the climate of Norwold), you've got to give me and everybody else reasons that make sense and that WE find Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:32:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #189 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: e627e065744d119fe73b777a358d3523 compelling, because we may not like the same things as you (though presumably you can convince us if your logic is sound). I like Mystara too, which is why I don't want it changed without good reason. >>4) the thing to fall back on when the rules don't work is enlightened creativity. i say if the problem is knowing whose jurisdiction the weather falls under, let's make it up! I propose a meeting of the "meteorological council of pandius" - Thor, Protius, Ixion, Djaea, and Ordana are called, with all others you can think of. >That wasn't meant to be taken seriously because I just don't want Immortals controlling weather no more than I want them controlling death. There's no room for random chance if something so basic as weather is being controlled. There's plenty of random chance. Saying that the immortals have cast spells which have changed "ordinary" weather patterns is not the same thing as saying that Thor is sitting in his control center planning out every single microvariation in every cloud on Mystara. And the analogy to death is certainly a good one ... Immortals don't control who lives or dies at every single second for every person, but immortals certainly do have the power to kill people or bring them back to life in particular situations (especially if the pandian council agrees)... similarly, it might be that from time to time the situation is right for a group of immortals to agree to massively alter the climate in a given area, or even to create a particular storm ... this is the meat of traditional fantasy stories! gods are beings with power over the elements who mysteriously interfere in the lives of mortals. immortals in Mystara are slightly different than conventional gods, but they still are certainly powerful enough to do this sort of thing, and there is plenty of evidence that they have done it. if you don't like that, your Mystara can be different, but when discussing this in the public forum dedicated to our mutually shared Mystara, be prepared to back up what you say. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:47:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) >Frankly, beyond the convenience of having One stat=One type of character, I really don't see what use your system has. Mainly I was trying to keep it simple. In the existing system, all of humanity is divided into one of the four classes: if he's smart he's a magic-user, if she is quick she's a thief. I just did the same thing; and my own versions *do* have special abilities and skills... the main difference is that I sacrificed almost all combat skills for greatly increased normal skills, different class-abilities, and different options at 9th level. Still your points are well taken. Historical accuracy doesn't concern me much, and I think that D&D probably has as much in common with the Wild West as with medieval Europe. However flavor is critical, and your system certainly has a lot more of that. Also when I tried to write up the classes I found that options at 9th level were hard to pin down unless you have a strong association with a particular career path. So while I like the symmetry of four classes, it may not work well in practice. In any case, thanks for your candor. I hope more people will add their ideas and comments... (hint) BTW does anyone use a "swashbuckler" class in OD&D? I was thinking of it as a fighter variant, who can wear no armor other than leather and shield, cannot use two-handed weapons, but uses a 1d10 hit die (to reflect superb dodge and parry skills). Also throw in a few acrobatic abilities. Prime requisite would be DEX, with minimum STR and CHA of 9 each. This would make an ideal class for sailors, duellists, nobles, and highwaymen. Also, a swashbuckler should probably use DEX for hit and damage bonus instead of strength... Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:55:11 EST From: LandoTW Subject: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts This Saturday, the mailman was my favorite guy on Earth. I finally got hold of the Wrath of the Immortals Boxed Set. I sat down, read it, and suddenly, things became a whole lot clearer. Its true what they say, "To understand a people, you must first understand their history". Well, even after reading WotI and talking online with a fellow MML member, I still found myself full of questions. (Which I will more than likely post after this little message) That led me to wondering if it was just that I didnt know as much about Mystara as I thought I did, or if it has just been so long since I've used the "D&D" system that I just didn't get it anymore. I had given up on RPG's in late 80's early 90's because there was just no one who wanted to play anymore...so I sold everything to a bookstore in Pearl City, Hawaii. Then I joined the military and almost EVERYBODY was gaming. So, during my AIT, I snuck into town and bought a 2nd Edition Players Handbook, DM Guide, etc....and began playing again. Since then I have forgotten almost everything I ever knew about D&D. This was no big deal until I fell in love with a boxed set called Red Steel..the place captivated me and I wanted to know more. Other sets followed;Karameikos...Glantri...then I found a still wrapped Champions of Mystara boxed set. I still wanted more, so somebody on the old TSR boards (probably Bruce Heard) suggested I try to get hold of more OOP material. Now, every morning, I kick myself squarely in the rear for selling all my D&D material. That being said however, I would really like to keep my games in 2nd Edition context; afterall, I'm familiar with it. Did TSR make a mistake by putting Mystara in an "AD&D context"? Maybe, but my gaming group and I like it well enough. So, if you have suggestions on how to make the D&D/AD&D Transition smoother, go ahead and shoot it my way. The next step? Well, I'm gonna try to get my hands on the Gazetters next. Maybe that will help me out as well on the history of the wonderful world of Mystara. Questions Question #1: Tortles. We know em, we love em, what about em? I know we seem to talk about Tortles all the time on this board, but where else in D&D/AD&D are they talked about. This is by far one of my favorite races in any setting. If nothing exists, Id LOVE to write up a little something about the the Tortles and what they are all about..from my humble point of view. Id like a guide before I sail off into uncharted waters however. (lest the hate mail will pour in on how I ruined things and dont know jack about Mystara) I think Bruce Heard might already be working on this too....not gonna step on his toes. Question #2: The Oltecs. Who were they, where were they, and how did their descendants eventually get to the Savage Coast. (Comment: Mystaros wrote an EXCELLENT piece on the History of the Espan People for the MML. Check it out!) Question #3: Nithia. Where exactly was Nithia before it was wiped from existance? Which modern countries sit where Nithia used to be? I know (only cause somebody told me) that Ylaraum has an Emirate called Nithia. Is this the same place? I'm sure I'll think of some more later. Al--"The only stupid question is the one that goes unasked" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:03:33 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-22 17:07:45 EST, you write: << Hm, I'm not sure in which direction you are heading, but it seems that you want to reduce the number of levels. I would prefer to create more levels. There are some conclusions from the level system that I don't like. In an army the officers always have more levels than the sergeants and the corporals and these have more levels than normal soldiers. Why? Why can a sergeant not be around level 8 and his lieutenant level 4 or 5? Imagine the old sergeant who has served for over 20 years and a young officer, fresh from the academy. I know the main reason against would be the money for XPs. OTOH a character from the Sea of Grass need not to earn a single coin to become mighty and famous.>>Jamuga Khan Heh...heh. Someone has been reading my mind. In my not quite finished description of the Alphatian Kingdom of Randel, I used a different approach to soldier xp levels. IMO an army with a high proportion of NCOs is a better fighting force. In the Randel Armed Forces (RAF) sergeants have a high xp level. And since officers are drawn from the common ranks, the officers are above the NCO xp levels. Now xp levels differ between troop types. A private in an elite regiment or even an elite company could possibly be of higher xp level than a sergeant or even officer in a standard infantry unit. The unit a soldier belongs to shows as much honor and such than anything. For example- An elite Dyurkan Company sergeant is between xp levels 6-8. A Dyurkan leutenant's level can be between 7-10. Now in a standard infantry regiment, the sergeant is level 3-4 and the Lt. is 5-6. Now passing on the street, a Dyurkan sergeant would salute a standard infantry Lt. However, the Dyurkan unit badge on the Dyurkan would display a great deal of prestige. I imagine a Dyurkan Sergeant walking past a platoon of standard infantry. The standard infantrymen looking on in awe at this NCO. I used this system out of respect for my great uncle. He was a career man in the US Army. He began his career in 1941 with the 82nd Airborne and finished it in 1972 as a master sergeant with the 5th Special Forces. It was his medals and service awards that caused even commisioned officers to give him respect. BTW the Dyurkans are the Alphatians living in the foothills of the Grey Mountains of Randel. I based them upon a mixture of the Scottish Highlanders and the Ghurka troops of the UK. The Dyurkans are known for their fierce fighting attitude, especially hand to hand. The Dyurkans are a tough people due to the rough environment they come from. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:56:40 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) At 09.00 23/03/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >Actually I agree with you about this one whole-heartedly; Fabrizio and I had a big argument about it once. :) And I would like not to start it again :) >Anyway, what I am doing now is a little bit different, but directed towards the same goal. The standard AD&D theory is that PC's are a type of supermen who are pretty rare in the average population, and thus should have better stats and higher levels than ordinary people, who are almost always 0-levels (even soldiers). I dislike completely this theory. >The standard OD&D theory is that just >about everybody has a class and level and fairly high level characters are pretty common, but level is closely tied to rank and social status. This is what I use IMC. >I don't really buy either of these. On the one hand I want PC's to not stand out from the average population so much (I don't play marvel super heroes for a reason), Here I agree with you. >and on the other I want level to be tied to experience, not to rank. Level _is_ tied to experience because of XP. Maybe what you want is not to have rank tied to experience (and thus level). >I also want levels overall in the game to be lower - one thing I never liked about Mystara was its mega-high level characters. I see. I'm going exactly the other way IMC, i.e. I'm raising the average level of the populations so that PC do not really stand out until they reach name level. Mystara is an adventurous and dangerous place, most people have served in the army or the city guard in their life so they can be considered either low-level fighters or thiefs (scouts). Merchants can be considered thieves too (note: I'm not saying that merchant are actually thieves). People who use their high strenght at work (smiths, miners, lumberers) can be compared to fighters, maybe they won't be skilled in wepon combat, but they certainly know how to fight bare handed. It would be interested to have such a character as NPC in a party :) Finally I think that party of adventurers are fairly common on Mystara, PC are just one of the parties, not necessarily the best/most famous/only one. >So what I wanted to do was to come up with a system of generating average people so they wouldn't all just have one of the adventurer character classes, but they wouldn't be 4 hit point putzes either. I like the idea that a master guildsmen can have a lot of skills and maybe even be hard to kill but is not a great warrior or wizard. anyway i am open to any and all suggestions still, and i agree with you about the ranks of military officers. Well, we don't agree completely, but please go on with this interesting project. Just my opinion. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara [was Re: Size of Mystara] I'm changing this thread name as my comments are being confused with Mystara's size which I have had no comment on. At 12:02 PM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >We know that water drows and hurricanes destroy because it says so in the rules. We know that other very basic elements of RW physics are directly contradicted by the rules. The rules take precedence over RW physics. We can make educated guesses based on what's in the rules and perhaps sometimes draw upon the RW but we shouldn't go about changing Mystara to match the RW, because if we do that long enough it's not a fantasy world anymore. Plus which I don't believe it can be done (too hard). Okay but I never advocated changing world size. >Huh???? What the heck do you mean by natural? Explain to me how a world where gravity emanates from force fields but not mass and sunlight comes not from nuclear fusion but from an alternate plane of existence can be called "natural". Mystaran physics and weather are OBVIOUSLY not run by the same principles as the Earth. Huh, yourself. Why would a fantasy world not go by the same weather rules? I thought I was advocating realistic patterns and now you're trying to argue that RW systems can't exist because Mystara doesn't meet the same ideas of our own world. If they can't exist for that reason then Mystara is subject to the same laws of nature as our own world. >fair enough. But now we are back to the whole "canon" discussion again. You don't have to be convinced by anything if you don't want to, but if you want to discuss Mystara as a fantasy world that we all SHARE, and you want to ask others to agree to CHANGE established FACTS about that world (such as the dimensions of the planet, or the climate of Norwold), you've got to give me and everybody else reasons that make sense and that WE find compelling, because we may not like the same things as you (though presumably you can convince us if your logic is sound). Not asking for change. As far as I know I've said the inhabitants control the weather in their personal areas not the Immortals. I've seen no evidence from any side to prove this wrong. >There's plenty of random chance. Saying that the immortals have cast spells which have changed "ordinary" weather patterns is not the same thing as saying that Thor is sitting in his control center planning out every single microvariation in every cloud on Mystara. And the analogy to death is certainly a good one ... Immortals don't control who lives or dies at every single second for every person, but immortals certainly do have the power to kill people or bring them back to life in particular situations (especially if the pandian council agrees)... similarly, it might be that from time to time the situation is right for a group of immortals to agree to massively alter the climate in a given area, or even to create a particular storm ... this is the meat of traditional fantasy stories! gods are beings with power over the elements who mysteriously interfere in the lives of mortals. immortals in Mystara are slightly different than conventional gods, but they still are certainly powerful enough to do this sort of thing, and there is plenty of evidence that they have done it. if you don't like that, your Mystara can be different, but when discussing this in the public forum dedicated to our mutually shared Mystara, be prepared to back up what you say. There's nothing to back up. I've never read where Immortals control nor wish to control the weather patterns of the whole planet. I have stated that groups, such as the Elves of Alfhiem, do control the weather of one area which may be affecting the weather elsewhere. Saying that Immortals don't control the weather is completely different from saying they can't change it. Next you'll be telling me the density of rock is determined by a group of Immortals because of the fantasy element. I think you're reading way too much into my words. And besides all that, I think the changing of canon is a completely acceptable topic for this list as canon has been proven to be easily malleable. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #189 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, March 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 190 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts [MYSTARA] - Players wanted in the Indianapolis Area [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - Mercury and Hermes. Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara [was Re: Size of Mystara] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:32:48 EST From: Dleggend Subject: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara I was just thinking that after the Shadow Elves took over Alfheim, didn't the forest go dry. The elves would use magic in order to keep the weather in favorable conditions. Later the Shadow elves asked the original elves who controlled the weather to come back in order to revive the forest to its old glory. Well what I'm getting at is this: since the weather spells are not in effect and the reason Ylaruam is a desert is because of the weather changes that occurred when the elves used their weather magic. So if the magic is not in affect (shadow elves don't have the right magic), wouldn't Ylaruam start getting rain and better weather? What if Ylaruam finds out that the key to Al-Kalim dream was in Alfheim and the reason they had little water was because of the Alfheim elves. They wouldn't want the elves to come back to Canolbarth to cast their weather magic and take away Ylaruam's precious water. Would this cause major problems with the elves? A war? An alliance between Ylaruam and Aengmor? Correct me if I'm wrong please. Just going by memory. Dleggend@aol.com Enter Dleggend's Page http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 15:40:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) >I see. I'm going exactly the other way IMC, i.e. I'm raising the average level of the populations so that PC do not really stand out until they reach name level. I like this approach. Although it is not unreasonable for knights to be 9th level or better, since they have had intense training. Other lords bought their title or inherited it and have had little or no training, though most "true" noblemen have at least some fencing lessons, maybe 3rd or 4th level. Even some ladies have a bit of training, and never underestimate the matronly cook with a frying pan! I think maybe the reason rulers are such high level is so that strong players don't come and usurp their positions. In real life, commandos and karate experts don't take over the government even though they are tougher than the president -- there are many reasons why this would be suicidal. Sometimes a madman *does* assassinate the ruler, so it's not like he's invulnerable (even Bill Gates can't avoid a pie in the face). In a fantasy world a 0-level normal human can be king, as long as he has plenty of loyal guards of mid-level and you don't let the PCs get away with anarchy. >People who use their high strenght at work (smiths, miners, lumberers) can be compared to fighters, maybe they won't be skilled in wepon combat, but they certainly know how to fight bare handed. It would be interested to have such a character as NPC in a party :) I never really considered this, but it makes a lot of sense -- especially when you work with a bunch of roughnecks who like to carouse and wrestle. A farmer might be 4th or 5th level for purposes of hitting, and would certainly be able to use fists, a club, or various farm implements. Of course miners and lumberjacks have effective weapons and know how to use them... Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:58:31 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts At 03:55 PM 3/23/98 EST, you wrote: First off, glad to have you with us! Sign aboard the SaveMystara project at SaveMystara@cmnwrld.com >Question #1: Tortles. We know em, we love em, what about em? I know we seem to >talk about Tortles all the time on this board, but where else in D&D/AD&D are they talked about. This is by far one of my favorite races in any setting. If nothing exists, Id LOVE to write up a little something about the the Tortles and what they are all about..from my humble point of view. Id like a guide before I sail off into uncharted waters however. (lest the hate mail will pour >in on how I ruined things and dont know jack about Mystara) I think Bruce Heard might already be working on this too....not gonna step on his toes. Let's see...going from memory: The tortles first appeared in X9 "The Savage Coast" which detailed the Savage Baronies prior to them becoming the Savage Baronies. The same guy wrote "Tortles of the Purple Sage" which was a two part module in an old Dungeon mag. It detail areas north of the Savage Baronies and a little about the tortles brief flirtation with civilization in ancient times. They are described in various detail in the Creature Crucibles and the Monstrous Compendium supplements. They are described in a fair level of detail in the Red Steel set. >Question #2: The Oltecs. Who were they, where were they, and how did their descendants eventually get to the Savage Coast. (Comment: Mystaros wrote an EXCELLENT piece on the History of the Espan People for the MML. Check it out!) I have stated before that the Oltecs are a theoretical tribe put forth by modern day archeologists. I cannot find the canon source that led me to this assumption though so it could simply be my own interpretation. I like the idea because in my mind they fit a kind of "Indo-European" equivalent as far as language history and race history goes. I also like the idea that they are somehow related to the Afridhi from the Blackmoor modules. >Question #3: Nithia. Where exactly was Nithia before it was wiped from existance? Which modern countries sit where Nithia used to be? I know (only cause somebody told me) that Ylaraum has an Emirate called Nithia. Is this the >same place? Nithia covered the area that is now Ylaruam and Thotia. It also covered much of the Isle of Dawn and areas surrounding Ylaruam. But keep in mind that there were also far flung colonies of Nithia. So basically a Nithian ruin can be just about anywhere you want it to be. The Emirate of Nithia is a pitiful remnant of the might that was ancient Nitha. >I'm sure I'll think of some more later. >Al--"The only stupid question is the one that goes unasked" Actually as a teacher, I do not agree with this old saying. I have heard many stupid questions in my day! Maybe I would word it like this: "The only stupid questions are those that do not seek an answer!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:11:36 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Jeff Daly wrote: >I have stated before that the Oltecs are a theoretical tribe put forth by modern day archeologists. I cannot find the canon source that led me to this assumption though so it could simply be my own interpretation. I like the idea because in my mind they fit a kind of "Indo-European" equivalent as far as language history and race history goes. The HW boxed set says that the Oltecs are based on the RW Olmecs. Official sources say they lived in what is now the Sind Desert, but also where the modern Savage Baronies lie as well. They are also present on the Isle of Cestia, and used to inhabit Oceania, too, before the Night Dragons killed off most of them and forced the remainder to flee. They are also the ancestors of the modern Jennites, too. >I also like the idea that they are somehow related to the Afridhi from the Blackmoor modules. Some people on the list also suggested that the Peshwa (another Oltec-type people, IMO, who lived at the time of Blackmoor) might be the ancestors of the Ethengar, who according to official sources are of Oltec descent, too. >Nithia covered the area that is now Ylaruam and Thotia. It also covered much of the Isle of Dawn and areas surrounding Ylaruam. But keep in mind that there were also far flung colonies of Nithia. So basically a Nithian ruin can be just about anywhere you want it to be. There was also a short-lived colony in the Jungle Coast region of Davania (HW boxed set - they brought Antalian slaves there, but they revolted, slew the Nithian overlords, and eventually became the modern Thyatian, Kerendan, Hattian, and Hinterlander peoples), as well as the Minrothad Isles, and the Savage Coast, too. I don't know if you already knew this, Jeff, but I thought I'd share it for anyone who doesn't have the information. :) >The Emirate of Nithia is a pitiful remnant of the might that was ancient Nitha. True, and it is also homem to Magian Fire-Worshippers. Nasty buggers.. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:21:04 EST From: Bimha2 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts ya about the tortles i play a savage coast game and enjoy tortle PCs but there wasn't much on them in the SAVAGE COAST CAMPAIN BOOK or in the SAVAGE COAST MONSTRUS COMPEDIUM APPENDIX so id love to see someone make info about them> *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:34:46 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:55:11 EST LandoTW writes: >Question #2: The Oltecs. Who were they, where were they, and how did their >descendants eventually get to the Savage Coast. (Comment: Mystaros wrote an >EXCELLENT piece on the History of the Espan People for the MML. Check it out!) The Oltecs were one of the three (four?) original branches of mankind, who conquered the Azcans, which then revolted. Both civilizations were nearly destroyed during the Great Rain of Fire, but were then removed to the Hollow World. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:24:43 -0500 From: "Brian K Deuberry" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Players wanted in the Indianapolis Area For more info, email bkis1@in-motion.net Of course the campaign is Mystara based. ;) BK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:29:06 -0500 From: "Brian K Deuberry" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists I have never seen a complete list of Mystara Immortals. I have found refrances here and there but nothing complete. Does anyone know where one is published or have one they can post? thanks in advance, BK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:38:59 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. What do you guys think? Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:18 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts >I have stated before that the Oltecs are a theoretical tribe put forth by modern day archeologists. Seeing as how the Oltecs are among my favorite Hollow World nations, I can't really accept this idea personally. The idea of Mystaran archeologists falsely identifying past cultures could be an intriguing one though, especially if the players are sent to study this supposed culture. >I also like the idea that they are somehow related to the Afridhi from the Blackmoor modules. No no no no! The Afridhi are a violent peoples who did not intermix at all with other groups as far as I can tell (though they did subjugate them). The Oltecs are a peaceful (mostly), intellectual society whose values are at the entire opposite end of the spectrum. I've never heard such corny lyrics, such simpering sentimentality, such repititious, uninspired melody. Man, we've got a hit on our hand. - Brad Anderson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:15:58 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists >I have never seen a complete list of Mystara Immortals. I have found refrances here and there but nothing complete. >Does anyone know where one is published or have one they can post? I am pretty sure (not totally sure) that such a list was made by someone on the list previously. Whether anyone has that copy saved or on a web page somewhere, I'm not sure though. I've never heard such corny lyrics, such simpering sentimentality, such repititious, uninspired melody. Man, we've got a hit on our hand. - Brad Anderson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:02:36 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts At 10:12 PM 3/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I have stated before that the Oltecs are a theoretical tribe put forth by modern day archeologists. >Seeing as how the Oltecs are among my favorite Hollow World nations, I can't really accept this idea personally. The idea of Mystaran archeologists falsely identifying past cultures could be an intriguing one though, especially if the players are sent to study this supposed culture. It is not that they are falsely identified. The idea is that archeologists are able, using modern archeological evidence, to theorize about a tribe which almost certainly existed. They come up with a name, in this case "Oltec", to describe the tribe. But like I said, I cannot find the passage that led me to this thought. In any case, I prefer my pcs not knowing all the facts anyway. So if Oltec is the correct word, then when I will have modern archeologists call them by some other name... >>I also like the idea that they are somehow related to the Afridhi from the Blackmoor modules. >No no no no! The Afridhi are a violent peoples who did not intermix at all with other groups as far as I can tell (though they did subjugate Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:33:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #190 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 626f6937b79c966d9bb3587cf025a729 >them). The Oltecs are a peaceful (mostly), intellectual society whose values are at the entire opposite end of the spectrum. I don't recall them being described as pacifist. What is your source? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:02:43 EST From: Bimha2 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun sounds interesting *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:37:32 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mercury and Hermes. JamugaKhan pontificated: >I don't think that there is a difference between Mercury and Hermes. He's just the Roman and Greece version of an idea. Romans tend to change a little of the gods they "borrowed" from other lands, so they can fit a bit better. For some reason, Roman really liked Mercury/Hermes, and hence gived him a bit more responsibilities. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:02:59 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) The three types that I selected were mainly meant to reflect the relative level of mental vs. physical activity involved in various occupations -- that is all that members of each of my proposed three classes would have had in common. The main intention was to provide an easy way to generate game statistics for non-adventuring NPCs -- and I think my scheme would work in that regard. Membership in one of these three classes tells you nothing about the social background of a character -- that would have to be determined by actual occupation (from the main non-weapon proficiencies selected) as well as other information. If you are trying to determine the social classes and occupations of a random cross section of the population, there are a number of games such as _Chivalry and Sorcery_ that contain tables to help you to do just that. But once you have determined a character's occupation and then decided that he is not a member of a standard adventuring class, what next? Do you simply make him level zero, a push-over for the average adventurer, or do you make it possible for him to have slightly better abilities? If you let him be superior to first level types, then you need a class and level scheme -- and the main examples available are in _Sages and Specialists_ and _Tales of the Lance_. The system I described was a synthesis and extrapolation of material from those two sources. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:03:00 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product In a message dated 98-03-23 12:41:17 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >What's the quote? >I think it's great that Plansescape hasn't totally forgotten about us. However I still feel that Mystara should be considered another dimension. One advantage to having Mystara in another dimension is that the discovery of that fact could destroy the smugness of the inhabitants of Sigil -- if Mystara is indeed in an alternate dimension, then that means that the planars have an incomplete view of the multiverse. Indeed, some of those "clueless" Mystarans may turn out to have a better basic concept of how the multiverse is set up than the folks in Sigil. Wouldn't the discovery of alternate dimensions be an interesting development for the Planescape setting? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:03:02 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-23 17:12:46 EST, MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com writes: >Mainly I was trying to keep it simple. In the existing system, all of hhumanity is divided into one of the four classes: if he's smart he's a magic-user, if she is quick she's a thief. I just did the same thing; and my own versions *do* have special abilities and skills... the main difference is that I sacrificed almost all combat skills for greatly increased normal skills, different class-abilities, and different options at 9th level. I may have missed this part, but what sort of abilities did you give each of your four classes? I would imagine that each class had much in common with its adventuring counterpart, but how did they differ? I don't recall seeing too many details along those lines. Also (in answer to one of our critics) the classes would not represent social status but would be comprehensible to the medieval mind -- keep in mind that the adventuring classes are not socially obvious either. Neither laborers nor scholars would be at the top of the social hierarchy -- nobles who are not adventurers would be expected to have a more balanced selection of skills and thus would be near the middle of the occupational spectrum, not at one end or the other. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:34:23 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara In a message dated 98-03-23 14:00:01 EST, strawberry@jamm.com writes: >That's simply impossible. By the definition of how the Latitudinal marks are specified, you CANNOT have more than 90 degrees at north and south pole. Keep in mind that Mystara is a hollow sphere with openings, so there is some room for debate as to how you would interpret the midpoint of the opening. By one scheme, we could say that this midpoint is 90 degrees - -- once you pass that midpoint, you are heading south again into the Hollow World. By another scheme, the midpoint of the opening falls well short of 90 degrees -- after all, no point of the opening actually reaches the pole, which would be the actual 90 degrees. But the Hollow World boxed set seems to have used yet another scheme, one that does not make mathematical sense. In the maps in that product, the 90 degree line is set to the edge of the sunless area at the opening - -- so there is actually a large measurable distance between 90 degrees North in the outer world and 90 degrees North in the hollow world -- ditto for 90 degrees South. The only way this would work is if we assume that the maps of the openings are not drawn to scale -- they must be very long and narrow compared to what is generally shown. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:34:48 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts In a message dated 98-03-23 21:11:26 EST, anowack@juno.com writes: >The Oltecs were one of the three (four?) original branches of mankind, wwho conquered the Azcans, which then revolted. Both civilizations were nearly destroyed during the Great Rain of Fire, but were then removed to the Hollow World. The three original branches of mankind, with their real world equivalents in parentheses, were the Neathar (Caucasians), Oltecs (Mongoloids/ Amerindians), and Tanagoro (Negroids). The Azcans were originally very close relatives of the Oltecs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:34:49 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists In a message dated 98-03-23 21:43:56 EST, bkis1@in-motion.net writes: >I have never seen a complete list of Mystara Immortals. I have found rrefrances here and there but nothing complete. >Does anyone know where one is published or have one they can post? The most complete lists are given in the following products: Wrath of the Immortals Hollow World Karameikos: Kingdom of Magic *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:22:03 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >At 04:58 PM 3/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Interesting, this might mean that since the weathermagics of Alfheim failed, then rain has perhaps returned to Ylaruam, however for a short pperiod. >Well, I also think it's time for Al-Kalim's dream to start and the flowering of Ylaruam to begin. Of course, I would like to see the fabled gate to the plane of fire closed by adventures. Yes! How fast do you think the Desert Garden should develope? This is something that has intrigued me for a long while. When the elves reconquer Alfheim they should be convinced to steal their rain elsewhere. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:22:55 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 09.00 23/03/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>Actually I agree with you about this one whole-heartedly; Fabrizio and I had a big argument about it once. :) >And I would like not to start it again :) oh. i see. :) >>and on the other I want level to be tied to experience, not to rank. >Level _is_ tied to experience because of XP. Maybe what you want is not to have rank tied to experience (and thus level). i just had to respond to this part. Level is indeed tied to XP, but not necessarily to real experience, since XP are awarded in D&D for all sorts of things (like earning money and killing monsters) which may not be particularly relevant to what it actually takes to become experienced at something. XP are a kind of reward for good play, but they don't reflect the actual training of the character (which would involve day-to-day practice and hard work of the type that's not very exciting to play). Powerful rulers shouldn't become more experienced simply by sitting on thrones collecting taxes. And for the military, the only way that level and rank can directly be tied is if everyone starts out at the bottom (private) and can work their way to the top (general) only through experience, which basically has never ever happened in the history of the world in any country that I know of. Sergeants SHOULD be more experienced (and thus more powerful) than their officers all the time. >>I also want levels overall in the game to be lower - one thing I never liked about Mystara was its mega-high level characters. >I see. I'm going exactly the other way IMC, i.e. I'm raising the average level of the populations so that PC do not really stand out until they reach name level. I guess for a world like Mystara that makes sense, so I won't try to talk you out of it ... but I will point out that (especially since the advent of rules for humanoid PCs) this tends to really reduce the scariness and significance of most monsters, making only humanoids really significant opponents (since they can rise in levels) whereas formerly scary beasties can now only threaten the most below-average characters. Which is okay, but it takes some of the charge out of D&D i think. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:33:05 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara [was Re: Size of Mystara] On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >I'm changing this thread name as my comments are being confused with Mystara's size which I have had no comment on. Sorry if I got your sentiments confused with those of the original commentator (Michael Roy) ... my arguments were intended to defend Mystara from unnecessary map alterations which were being called for based on the (IMO flimsy) evidence of climate inconsistency with the RW. >>Huh???? What the heck do you mean by natural? Explain to me how a world where gravity emanates from force fields but not mass and sunlight comes not from nuclear fusion but from an alternate plane of existence can be called "natural". Mystaran physics and weather are OBVIOUSLY not run by the same principles as the Earth. >Huh, yourself. Why would a fantasy world not go by the same weather rules? II thought I was advocating realistic patterns and now you're trying to argue that RW systems can't exist because Mystara doesn't meet the same ideas of our own world. If they can't exist for that reason then Mystara is subject to the same laws of nature as our own world. This is confusing logic. I never said that RW weather systems CAN'T exist. I only said there is no reason to believe that they do, since Mystara is not bound by other aspects of the RW either. I don't advocate anything other than what's in the canon material and what can be extrapolated from it (or what we can as creators agree upon) - but I don't see any reason why I should accept the need for "realistic" weather patterns in a fundamentally unrealistic world. The burden of proof is on you. >>fair enough. But now we are back to the whole "canon" discussion again. You don't have to be convinced by anything if you don't want to, but if you want to discuss Mystara as a fantasy world that we all SHARE, and you want to ask others to agree to CHANGE established FACTS about that world (such as the dimensions of the planet, or the climate of Norwold), you've got to give me and everybody else reasons that make sense and that WE find compelling, because we may not like the same things as you (though presumably you can convince us if your logic is sound). >Not asking for change. As far as I know I've said the inhabitants control the weather in their personal areas not the Immortals. I've seen no evidence from any side to prove this wrong. I am on dangerous ice here as I can't remember an exact source, but I do believe that the weather changes in Alfheim and Ylaruam are attributed to immortal, not mortal magic. But as I said I misunderstood and thought you were calling for a change in the actual size and shape of the planet. >There's nothing to back up. I've never read where Immortals control nor wish to control the weather patterns of the whole planet. I have stated that groups, such as the Elves of Alfhiem, do control the weather of one area which may be affecting the weather elsewhere. Saying that Immortals don't control the weather is completely different from saying they can't change it. Next you'll be telling me the density of rock is determined by a group of Immortals because of the fantasy element. I think you're reading way too much into my words. And besides all that, I think the changing of canon is a completely acceptable topic for this list as canon has been proven to be easily malleable. I didn't say that the density of rock is determined by a group of immortals ... but I see no reason why it couldn't be. And I also never said that the immortals control the weather patterns of the whole planet, only that the weather patterns are not necessarily subject to RW meteorology. So you and I actually don't disagree much. As for canon, of course we always are discussing changing it, but that doesn't mean we can't use logic and evidence to persuade each other. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #190 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:41:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #191 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: ee7319c95e3078f5728e426222265a76 mystara-digest Tuesday, March 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 191 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Humans (was: D&D, AD&D...etc) Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Throw System) Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:56:38 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Kaviyd, The general idea behind my system was that the primary thing to know about a given person (after their gender and race and age) was their occupation. This could conventiently be broken down first by general social class (similar occupations tended to be grouped together in the middle ages, and still are to some extent) and then by particular occupation. For instance, once you know someone is an entertainer, you know that they fit into a particular social niche (they are above criminals, petty vagrants, and laborers, but not nearly as respectable as honest tradesmen), now you simply need to find the particular kind of entertainer within that grouping ... so you might have a subtable with things like juggler, storyteller, puppetteer, fire-eater, stage magician, actor, musician, etc. - - this might depend on the ability scores of the character, or other factors. Linked to these particular occupations would be further status differentiation within the overall class, and specific types of skills (very similar to a kit). Potentially (with some fudging of the AD&D player's option system) you could then make rules for the skill progression of each of these different groups without any reference at all to the standard class system of traditional D&D. are you familiar with the WarHammer Fantasy RPG rules? I never like the warhammer world much, but they have a neat idea for character creation and development ... there a variety of different classes, with pathways between them that characters can follow, accumulating diverse skills as they move from trade to trade in search of truly rare knowledge and power. this reflects also the particular skills associated with a given occupation without taking the time to choose nonproficiency slots for NPCs and without crudely clumping them into physical vs. mental occupations. (which, except for quarry slaves and cloistered scholars, probably doesn't reflect the majority of individuals accurately at all). peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >The three types that I selected were mainly meant to reflect the relative level of mental vs. physical activity involved in various occupations -- that is all that members of each of my proposed three classes would have had in common. The main intention was to provide an easy way to generate game statistics for non-adventuring NPCs -- and I think my scheme would work in that regard. Membership in one of these three classes tells you nothing about the social background of a character -- that would have to be determined by actual occupation (from the main non-weapon proficiencies selected) as well as other information. If you are trying to determine the social classes and occupations of a random cross section of the population, there are a number of games such as _Chivalry and Sorcery_ that contain tables to help you to do just that. >But once you have determined a character's occupation and then decided that he is not a member of a standard adventuring class, what next? Do you simply make him level zero, a push-over for the average adventurer, or do you make it possible for him to have slightly better abilities? If you let him be superior to first level types, then you need a class and level scheme -- and the main examples available are in _Sages and Specialists_ and _Tales of the Lance_. The system I described was a synthesis and extrapolation of material from those two sources. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:58:38 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Humans (was: D&D, AD&D...etc) On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-23 21:11:26 EST, anowack@juno.com writes: >>The Oltecs were one of the three (four?) original branches of mankind, wwwho conquered the Azcans, which then revolted. Both civilizations were nearly destroyed during the Great Rain of Fire, but were then removed to the Hollow World. >The three original branches of mankind, with their real world equivalents in parentheses, were the Neathar (Caucasians), Oltecs (Mongoloids/ Amerindians), and Tanagoro (Negroids). The Azcans were originally very close relatives of the Oltecs. Mathew Levy wrote something about human races a few months back. How about developing these peoples like the peoples in David Eddings Belgariad. Ie with special personality traits and each people having an Immortal Patron. The same could be done with subraces like the antalians (whose patron would be Odin.)Any ideas? I realize that Eddings peoples were stereotypes and we might want more realism in Mystara but it still could be fun looking into it. Sincerely Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:00:21 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-23 12:41:17 EST, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: >>What's the quote? >>I think it's great that Plansescape hasn't totally forgotten about us. However I still feel that Mystara should be considered another dimension. >One advantage to having Mystara in another dimension is that the discovery of that fact could destroy the smugness of the inhabitants of Sigil -- if Mystara >is indeed in an alternate dimension, then that means that the planars have an incomplete view of the multiverse. Indeed, some of those "clueless" Mystarans may turn out to have a better basic concept of how the multiverse is set up than the folks in Sigil. Wouldn't the discovery of alternate dimensions >be an interesting development for the Planescape setting? Yeah, that sounds interesting. I guess that's where we come in. I have a complete list of Planes in the Mystara Multiverse on my homepage. Anyone who wants to develope these further? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:02:25 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Mischa E Gelman wrote: >Seeing as how the Oltecs are among my favorite Hollow World nations, I can't really accept this idea personally. The idea of Mystaran archeologists falsely identifying past cultures could be an intriguing one though, especially if the players are sent to study this supposed culture. >>I also like the idea that they are somehow related to the Afridhi from the Blackmoor modules. >No no no no! The Afridhi are a violent peoples who did not intermix at all with other groups as far as I can tell (though they did subjugate them). The Oltecs are a peaceful (mostly), intellectual society whose values are at the entire opposite end of the spectrum. They could perhaps be an offshoot of the Oltecs. Maybe a sect following a different Immortal (Thanatos?) Just an idea. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:13:04 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun << A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. What do you guys think? >> How were they connected? Was it part of a campaign? Did it just start off as one huge world? Sounds interesting...but i'm not clear as to how he connected em... - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:27:05 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) << i just had to respond to this part. Level is indeed tied to XP, but not necessarily to real experience, since XP are awarded in D&D for all sorts of things (like earning money and killing monsters) which may not be particularly relevant to what it actually takes to become experienced at something. XP are a kind of reward for good play, but they don't reflect the actual training of the character (which would involve day-to-day practice and hard work of the type that's not very exciting to play). Powerful rulers shouldn't become more experienced simply by sitting on thrones collecting taxes. And for the military, the only way that level and rank can directly be tied is if everyone starts out at the bottom (private) and can work their way to the top (general) only through experience, which basically has never ever happened in the history of the world in any country that I know of. Sergeants SHOULD be more experienced (and thus more powerful) than their officers all the time. >> IMC, XP is awarded for roleplaying #1 then experiences, and finally for fighting monsters.....If the system of XP given for taxes...or a certian amount is awarded for a monster isn't comfortable in your eyes, then change it. I don't give any experience for collecting taxes. It's not earned or deserved. In battleing 1HD monsters with 23rd level characters...if anything they'll get docked XP for destroying them without just cause. Even if they're being attacked.....It's like killing a child that's waving a stick at you. To stress players to roleplay more, i award the most XP for how they roleplay thier characters. If a character is searching for an ancient Crown and finds it, i'll give em XP for accomplishing thier goal. However, when just finding a crown in a treasure hoard, i won't award any experience. Why should a charecter get more experience for finding a Cyclops' hoard of 8,000 gp then one finding 6,000 gp. I just think XP is all in the hands of the DM and should be given when deserved. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:40:59 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft I think this project sounds very interesting. What I would like to see is focus on roleplaying possibilities. NPCs, Ideas for campaigns centered around the School etc. Including info for various sets of rules is also an intriguing idea. GURPS material would be very useful for me, personally. I dont know how much the school will be seen as a rival of the Great School of Magic. The School of Magecraft doesn't have any connection with the Radiance which is what made Glantri the Mekka of Mages. However, the SoM will obviously be a great boost to the level of magical knowledge in the Kingdom of Karameikos. I can predict some rivalry between the Mages Guild and the School of Magecraft. I don't think the Guild will try to make it on their own as they can't afford not having access to Terari's knowledge. They might try to form a fraction within the school and eventually take control of it. Master Teldon has mysteriously disappeared IRC, but who knows what he'll be up to when he returns... Good luck with the project Galwylin! Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:53:42 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Brian K Deuberry wrote: >I have never seen a complete list of Mystara Immortals. I have found refrances here and there but nothing complete. >Does anyone know where one is published or have one they can post? Try Shawn Stanleys website http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ I think the list is as complete as you get em these days. With additional information about spells for speciality priests etc.. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:58:37 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >I think this project sounds very interesting. What I would like to see is focus on roleplaying possibilities. NPCs, Ideas for campaigns centered around the School etc. I'd like to see alot of role-playing possibilities also. I'm currently working on one of the old masters to have lost his soul, so to speak, and is plotting a few mischief activities. I looking through things to see if there's a creature that takes control of a person. If I don't find one that meets my needs I guess I'll have to make one up. Also, I hope everyone remembers there is a whole town around the school so there's lots of places to bring things into the school's area. >Including info for various sets of rules is also an intriguing idea. GURPS material would be very useful for me, personally. Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:41:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #191 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: ee7319c95e3078f5728e426222265a76 D&D/AD&D are the only things I'm familiar with well. If anyone has anything for another system, I'd like for us to include it also though. >I dont know how much the school will be seen as a rival of the Great School of Magic. The School of Magecraft doesn't have any connection with the Radiance which is what made Glantri the Mekka of Mages. However, the SoM will obviously be a great boost to the level of magical knowledge in the Kingdom of Karameikos. I can predict some rivalry between the Mages Guild and the School of Magecraft. I don't think the Guild will try to make it on their own as they can't afford not having access to Terari's knowledge. They might try to form a fraction within the school and eventually take control of it. Master Teldon has mysteriously disappeared IRC, but who knows what he'll be up to when he returns... I could imagine a rivalry beginning especially if mages decide the world games would be a great focal place to showcase their skill. An annual mage fair like from the Forgotten Realms. >Good luck with the project Galwylin! Thanks! I hope everyone will contribute to this. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:55:46 -0600 From: "Lord BKis1" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far to harsh. It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a whole level). Thanks in advance, BK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:44:25 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >Yes! >How fast do you think the Desert Garden should develope? This is something that has intrigued me for a long while. When the elves reconquer Alfheim they should be convinced to steal their rain elsewhere. I believe signs of Ylaruam losing it's desert qualities should be seen almost immediately after the first good rainfall. The complete change would probably take quite a few years. How this will change the culture of the Emirates would take even longer but I would picture it as one large oasis type land. Another change would be Al-Kalim's next project. As to the elves, I would like to see the flowering of the Emirates be well along the path to complete restoration before they find a way to recall the rains to Alfhiem. Lots of good conflict between two 'good' peoples there. Is there any reason though while Alfhiem needs so much rain that they need steal it? What about the forests of Karameikos? They aren't that far from Alfhiem and there's been no mention of them losing their fullness. I would like to see something good for one of the nations of the Known World come out of WotI though. So far, Karameikos declaring it's independence has been it and we all thought it would eventually happen anyway. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 10:48:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) >Also (in answer to one of our critics) the classes would not represent social status but would be comprehensible to the medieval mind -- keep in mind that the adventuring classes are not socially obvious either. This had occurred to me also. In fact, the standard adventuring classes did not even really exist as a stereotype in medieval society (with the possible exception of thieves)... >Neither laborers nor scholars would be at the top of the social hierarchy -- nobles who are not adventurers would be expected to have a more balanced selection of skills and thus would be near the middle of the occupational spectrum, not at one end or the other. Hmm, this is a good point. In fact I was having trouble fitting nobles (and domestics) in, since they don't really *have* an identifiable profession, and their career path is quite different from the rest of society. So maybe they should be in a category by themselves? >I may have missed this part, but what sort of abilities did you give each of your four classes? I would imagine that each class had much in common with its adventuring counterpart, but how did they differ? I don't recall seeing too many details along those lines. No you didn't miss it, because I didn't post it. However, since you're interested, and since I could use input on this whole idea, here are my notes (assuming OD&D rules): Abilities common to all Normals: o Start play with one hit die. Do not automatically gain hit dice with level increases, but may spend 1 skill slot to gain one hit die + CON bonus. o Do not gain additional weapon slots beyond those you start with, but may spend two skill slots to gain one weapon slot. May not specialize in a weapon. o Start with THAC0 20. May spend two skill slots to improve THAC0 by +1 (but may never get better than a fighter of equal level). o Start with four skill slots, and gain +1 skill slot with each level gain. Also, gain additional skill slots for exceptional scores in prime requisite (so a WIS 16 teacher gains two extra skills). These extra slots *must* be spent on skills of the same type as the exceptional ability score. Also, most skills should be concentrated in professional skills; a STR 11 laborer of 4th level might have five slots devoting to his Mining skill of 18, one slot used to gain an additional hit die (for brawling) and two slots in miscellaneous abilities. Artisan Requisite: DEX Hit dice: 1d4 Save: Dodge/Body o Gain +2 with all DEX skills o May learn any thief skill by spending one skill slot on it o May wear armor as a thief o Start with two weapon slots o Become a MASTER ARTISAN at 9th level. May create a new guild if desired, or set up a school for teaching. 1-6 apprentices seek you out, and your products fetch premium prices. May also begin work on your MASTERPIECE, a superb product with magical properties. You may make only a single masterpiece, at great cost and many years of effort. You will probably be granted a seat on the town council, and may be offered a commission from a wealthy patron. Laborer Requisite: STR Hit dice: 1d6 Save: Body/Dodge o Gain +2 with all STR skills o Open doors as a fighter o May wear armor as a fighter, and use fighter combat options o Start with two weapon slots o Ask a favor (3/6) of neighbor or employer o Intimidate (2/6, STR bonus applies) o Become a MANAGER at 9th level. If self-employed, you own your own business and gain employees. If in the service of another, you are promoted to general manager and put in charge of important projects. Scholar (logical, thinking people) Requisite: INT Hit dice: 1d3 Save: Magic/Mind o Gain +2 with all INT skills o Start with *no* weapon slots, wear no armor o Understand unfamiliar device: 2/6 (INT bonus applies) o Use magic-user items: 1/6 chance per item o Chance to decipher unknown language is 4% per level o Chance to read magic is 1% per level (one try per spell or scroll) o At 9th level become a SAGE. Gain 1-4 student/apprentices. May build a reference library and collect fees, and may gain a wealthy patron to support your research. May start on your LIFEWORK, a scholarly manuscript kind of like a thesis. Such works are often many volumes in length, and require much research. Merchant (shrewd, communicative people) [was Teacher] Requisite: WIS Hit dice: 1d4 Save: Mind/Magic o Gain +2 with all WIS skills o Start with one weapon slot o Detect deception (2/6, WIS bonus applies) o Danger sense (2/6, WIS bonus applies) o Make contact, 5% per level o Wear armor as a cleric; may use any weapon o At 9th level become a MERCHANT PRINCE. You start your own business and become well known, and gain business income. You also gain employees, and may rise to become guildmaster of your local area. You are granted a seat on the town council; some merchant princes are granted lands and title, some build a fleet of ships, and others rise to control an independent city. Domestics may be any of the above. Nobles are probably Scholars or Merchants, depending on disposition. NOTES: o I changed 'Teacher' to 'Merchant', since a scholar is most likely to attract students. o The Laborer archetype was hard to define, since they aren't very skilled and I'm not sure what abilities to give them. Perhaps laborer could be combined with artisan? o These still don't really cover my 'explorer' archetype, which is an outdoorsman or traveler with some fighting ability. Perhaps such a character should use a standard adventuring class. o Saving throws use Malacoda's simplified system Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:56:53 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Throw System) >That's interesting. I figured there would definitly be some 'Galantri Specific' Mage spells, just as there are some 'Alphatia Specific' ones. I might not worry about getting access to this Gaz then... Don't be so quick! It is an excellent gazetteer! It is very strong in atmosphere and description. While I was annoyed with the Alphatian gazetteer for not providing more spells I really did not mind the way the Glantri gazetteer was done. >[Re: Spells in Night Howlers] >Jeff Daly wrote >>Believe it or not, Night Howlers does contain one new spell called "Wind Whispers". It is 2nd level. >Is this an MU spell? If it is, can any mage use it or do they have to be a were? It is a MU spell with no racial restrictions. It is a useful spell for communication over large distances. >[Re: Spells in Ylaruam and Ethingar Gazes] Jeff Daly Wrote >>Both of these two have new spells. The latter has a new spell using class: TTThe Shaman. >Isn't the Shaman was a 'Clerical' type Class? Are there any mage spells in the Ethingar Gaz? You are correct. Sorry. >What about the Ylaruam Gaz -- are those spells Clerial or Magical? Clerical. >[Re: Spells in Top Ballista] >Jeff Daly wrote: >>The Faenare have several abilities which are very much like spells. >Would these be spells that *might* be learned by a Mage or Elf, or are these abilites just something a Faenare happens to be able to do? I think they are merely abilities. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:50:25 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:50:22 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:06:28 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. At 13.55 24/03/98 -0600, Lord BKis1 wrote: II want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far to harsh. Why that? >It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a whole level). Funny, I've the opposite problem. One of my player does not flee when he should, so that he usually end up losing levels against undead. Sometimes players think: "Hey, this monster cannot be really that hard to defeat. Our DM is too good to use such a powerful monster". If you want to scare your PC, but not to have them turn and flee simply don't use undead. There's plenty of appalling monsters on Mystara: lychantropes, beholder, elementals, ropers.. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:44:07 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) At 02.22 24/03/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >thrones collecting taxes. And for the military, the only way that level and rank can directly be tied is if everyone starts out at the bottom (private) and can work their way to the top (general) only through experience, which basically has never ever happened in the history of the world in any country that I know of. Just a question: in another thread you say that RW meteorology doesn't necessarily work on fantasy worlds like Mystara, so why should RW social patterns work? >Sergeants SHOULD be more experienced >(and thus more powerful) than their officers all the time. Does this work only for standard all-fighters armies or for every sort of army that can be found in a fantasy world? For example, the Glantrian army has some mage-only units. Should mage-sergeants be more experienced (i.e. higher level) than mage-officers? >I guess for a world like Mystara that makes sense, so I won't try to talk you out of it ... but I will point out that (especially since the advent of rules for humanoid PCs) this tends to really reduce the scariness and significance of most monsters, making only humanoids really significant opponents (since they can rise in levels) In fact I rarely use 0-level humanoids. >whereas formerly scary beasties >can now only threaten the most below-average characters. Which is okay, but it takes some of the charge out of D&D i think. Probably with high level PC you're right. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:13:16 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] At 12.44 24/03/98 -0600, Galwylin wrote: ppeoples there. Is there any reason though while Alfhiem needs so much rain that they need steal it? What about the forests of Karameikos? They aren't that far from Alfhiem and there's been no mention of them losing their fullness. But Alfheim trees were not standard trees, and thus Canolbarth forest wasn't a common forest. Alfheim trees needed much more rain the common ones IMO. Moreover the Canolbarth area was described as Ethengar-like before the elves settled there, so it's probably not suited to have a forest, thus the need for stealing rain. I think the Cruth mountains significantly affect the weather pattern, so that teh climate of Karameikos is different from the one of eastern Darokin. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #191 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, March 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 192 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. [MYSTARA] - Other spells in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun [MYSTARA] - NetLogos Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:31:53 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara At 18.32 23/03/98 EST, Dleggend wrote: >I was just thinking that after the Shadow Elves took over Alfheim, >didn't the forest go dry. The elves would use magic in order to keep the weather in favorable conditions. Later the Shadow elves asked the original elves who controlled the weather to come back in order to revive the forest to >its old glory. Well what I'm getting at is this: since the weather spells are not in effect and the reason Ylaruam is a desert is because of the weather changes that occurred when the elves used their weather magic. So if the magic >is not in affect (shadow elves don't have the right magic), wouldn't Ylaruam start getting rain and better weather? Probably yes, though I see some problems: 1) Canon stuff published after WotI doesn't mention this at all 2) There's still a gate to the Plain of Fire in the Ylaruam area, isn't it? 3) Didn't the raise of Atruaghin Plateau also contribuited in changing the weather pattern in the KW? >What if Ylaruam finds out that the key to Al-Kalim dream was in Alfheim and the reason they had little water was because of the Alfheim elves. They wouldn't want the elves to come back to Canolbarth to cast their weather magic >and take away Ylaruam's precious water. Would this cause major problems with the elves? A war? An alliance between Ylaruam and Aengmor? It's funny that a while ago someone suggested an alliance between Ilsundal and Al-Kalim against the Shadow Elves. Ylaruam would have helped Alfheim exilees to take back the Canolbarth forest in exchange for weather controlling spells (sort of). I like your idea better, though I'm against a Alfheim elves/Aengmor elves war. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Leader of Privateers - Student of Aerospace Enginnering Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:43:22 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) At 02:44 PM 3/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >At 02.22 24/03/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>thrones collecting taxes. And for the military, the only way that level and rank can directly be tied is if everyone starts out at the bottom (private) and can work their way to the top (general) only through experience, which basically has never ever happened in the history of the world in any country that I know of. >Just a question: in another thread you say that RW meteorology doesn't necessarily work on fantasy worlds like Mystara, so why should RW social patterns work? Ooh! I never thought of that! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:35:56 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. At 01:55 PM 3/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far to harsh. >It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a whole level). I read a Forum letter in Dragon from a long time ago (no clue as to what issue it was) where someone was discussing the same problem. Losing a whole level is way out of proportion to the potential gains of destroying even a vampire. His suggestion was that the undead drain the level, but the level comes back after a while (say a day). For example, you run into the local vampire, and he drains you of four levels during the fight. You decide to live to fight another day, and run and hide. Four days later, you're back to full strength, and you can go back at him. This simulates the idea of being scared spitless by the horror of the thing, but recovering your willpower as you distance yourself from the undead's power. I like this idea, and I still use it. Of course, if you want to really scare the players in this campaign, have an evil artifact that does drain the levels permanently a la standard rules. That will really get their attention. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:39:02 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Other spells in Mystara I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the Minrothad gazetteer yet; there's a bunch of new spells there, and they are MU spells. They're restricted to the Merchant-Princes of Minrothad, but I'm sure an enterprising wizard can either research them on his own or steal them outright (good luck with that one). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 15:26:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] >Moreover the Canolbarth area was described as Ethengar-like before the elves settled there, so it's probably not suited to have a forest, thus the need for stealing rain. I think the Cruth mountains significantly affect the weather pattern, so that teh climate of Karameikos is different from the one of eastern Darokin. >From what I can tell, Alfheim corresponds geographically with the southeastern US, say Mississippi or maybe Tennessee, which is lightly forested. However, I think that part of the US gets most of its rain from the north or the south (in storm season), and Alfhiem is blocked on three sides by high mountains. The only place it could get its rain is from the west, in Darokin -- possibly evaporation from Lake Amsorak, since beyond Darokin is desert. Actually, western China might be a better example since it is landlocked and surrounded by mountains, but that would make Alfhiem a dry grassland (like Ethengar) or perhaps a desert. In fact, if Alfheim and Yluarum switched places the weather would make sense. Perhaps Alfheim is watered by rivers originating in the surrounding mountains... it *does* seem to have a lot of rivers. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:41:34 EST From: Juan Galvz Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists In a message dated 98-03-24 02:49:22 EST, Kyvid, you wrote: << The most complete lists are given in the following products: Wrath of the Immortals Hollow World Karameikos: Kingdom of Magic Let us not forget that there are new Immortals that have emerged in the Savage Coast, such as, the entire Renardios Pantheon. - -Juan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:43:03 EST From: Juan Galvz Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Lists I am sorry. I forgot to mention this site location for a very nearly complete listing of Mystaran Immortals: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/immortal.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:11:15 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:58:37 -0600 Galwylin writes: HHåvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>Good luck with the project Galwylin! >Thanks! I hope everyone will contribute to this. Well then, here's my two cents. Perhaps something should be made like the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri. Why should the Glantrians be the only ones with there own special forms of magic? Also, someone mentioned Traladaran magic, maybe they could be given Wokani abilities? Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:33:26 -0500 (EST) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Glen Sprigg pontificated: >I read a Forum letter in Dragon from a long time ago (no clue as to what issue it was) where someone was discussing the same problem. Losing a whole level is way out of proportion to the potential gains of destroying even a vampire. His suggestion was that the undead drain the level, but the level comes back after a while (say a day). What I did was to remove the restriction of Restore that only one level can be restored by the spell. So basiclly if one have access to high level clerics, they can gain back all the lost levels eventually. But as the cleric will lose a level for a month after the casting of the spell, it is still generally a fairly slow process. John Yu - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | UVa, Material Science Dept. |"Earth is too small and fragile a basket IPM Lab | for Mankind to keep all his eggs in." (804) 984-3789 | -- Robert Anson Heinlein *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:42:05 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) >IMC, XP is awarded for roleplaying #1 then experiences, and finally for fighting monsters.....If the system of XP given for taxes...or a certian amount is awarded for a monster isn't comfortable in your eyes, then change it. I don't give any experience for collecting taxes. It's not earned or deserved. In battleing 1HD monsters with 23rd level characters...if anything they'll get docked XP for destroying them without just cause. Even if they're being attacked.....It's like killing a child that's waving a stick at you. To stress players to roleplay more, i award the most XP for how they roleplay thier characters. If a character is searching for an ancient Crown and finds it, i'll give em XP for accomplishing thier goal. However, when just finding a crown in a treasure hoard, i won't award any experience. Why should a charecter get more experience for finding a Cyclops' hoard of 8,000 gp then one finding 6,000 gp. I just think XP is all in the hands of the DM and should be given when deserved. I agree with all of this. The problem is that the conventional rules of D&D depend upon the idea that just being rich and powerful should get you lots of XP - this is why almost all rulers are high level. I pointed this out because I was talking about ways to change the way NPCs are done on Mystara to better reflect the kind of world you would have with rules like those you suggest above. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:09:35 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >>Also (in answer to one of our critics) the classes would not represent social status but would be comprehensible to the medieval mind -- keep in mind that the adventuring classes are not socially obvious either. >This had occurred to me also. In fact, the standard adventuring classes did not even really exist as a stereotype in medieval society (with the possible exception of thieves)... Not true. Soldiers and priests were both recognized as distinct social classes, and at least in certain places and times "witch" or "wizard" were well defined categories. Anyway my system also included a general social class called "adventurer", meaning someone who switched professions a lot and had led an adventurous life, as opposed to someone who stayed in one career ... this kind of person would be more common in the renaissance than the middle ages, for instance Captain John Smith (or Baron Munchausen for that matter). >>Neither laborers nor scholars would be at the top of the social hierarchy -- nobles who are not adventurers would be expected to have a more balanced selection of skills and thus would be near the middle of the occupational spectrum, not at one end or the other. >Hmm, this is a good point. In fact I was having trouble fitting nobles (and domestics) in, since they don't really *have* an identifiable profession, and their career path is quite different from the rest of society. So maybe they should be in a category by themselves? Domestics definitely do have an identifiable profession, it's just not one that is part of the "public job market" - but there are all sorts of skills which would be expected of a wife, mother, or nanny; included in this category might also be the domestic servants of the wealthy, who would be more specialized (cooks, chamberlains, butlers, etc.) And nobles also have professional requirements ... they need to be educated, well-mannered, sportsmanlike, etc. in order to get by ... these things take much time and training. >Abilities common to all Normals: >o Start play with one hit die. Do not automatically gain hit dice wwith level increases, but may spend 1 skill slot to gain one hit die + CON bonus. >o Do not gain additional weapon slots beyond those you start with, bbut may spend two skill slots to gain one weapon slot. May not specialize in a weapon. >o Start with THAC0 20. May spend two skill slots to improve THAC0 bby +1 (but may never get better than a fighter of equal level). o Start with four skill slots, and gain +1 skill slot with each llevel gain. Also, gain additional skill slots for exceptional scores in prime requisite (so a WIS 16 teacher gains two extra skills). These extra slots *must* be spent on skills of the same type as the exceptional ability score. Also, most skills should be concentrated in professional skills; a STR 11 laborer of 4th level might have five slots devoting to his Mining skill of 18, one slot used to gain an additional hit die (for brawling) and two slots in miscellaneous abilities. these are kind of interesting. but why not make this compatible with regular classes too? (fit everything into one system) >Artisan >o May learn any thief skill by spending one skill slot on it artisans might be good at removing traps or picking locks, but why would they learn to backstab or hide in shadows? >o Become a MASTER ARTISAN at 9th level. May create a new guild iif desired, or set up a school for teaching. 1-6 apprentices seek you out, and your products fetch premium prices. May also begin work on your MASTERPIECE, a superb product with magical properties. You may make only a single masterpiece, at great cost and many years of effort. You will probably be granted a seat on the town council, and may be offered a commission from a wealthy patron. I like this. In fact I think there should be more magic items around that are not made by traditional wizards. aren't there rules in the dwarf gaz about this? >Laborer >o Gain +2 with all STR skills >o Open doors as a fighter >o May wear armor as a fighter, and use fighter combat options o Start with two weapon slots now this doesn't sound all that much different from a fighter. wearing armor is actually a fairly difficult thing ... there should be a little more difficulty involved here. >Scholar (logical, thinking people) >o Understand unfamiliar device: 2/6 (INT bonus applies) o Use magic-user items: 1/6 chance per item o Chance to decipher unknown language is 4% per level o Chance to read magic is 1% per level (one try per spell or scroll) o At 9th level become a SAGE. Gain 1-4 student/apprentices. MMay build a reference library and collect fees, and may gain a wealthy patron to support your research. May start on your LIFEWORK, a scholarly manuscript kind of like a thesis. Such works are often many volumes in length, and require much research. again, i like this part. >Merchant (shrewd, communicative people) [was Teacher] Requisite: WIS shouldn't being a merchant require charisma, not wisdom? >o Start with one weapon slot >o Detect deception (2/6, WIS bonus applies) o Danger sense (2/6, WIS bonus applies) >o Make contact, 5% per level >o Wear armor as a cleric; may use any weapon wearing armor as a cleric is identical to wearing armor as a fighter. >o At 9th level become a MERCHANT PRINCE. YYou start your own business and become well known, and gain business income. You also gain employees, and may rise to become guildmaster of your local area. You are granted a seat on the town council; some merchant princes are granted lands and title, some build a fleet of ships, and others rise to control an independent city. who grants merchants lands and title? they BUY them. nobody is going to grant these. >Domestics may be any of the above. >Nobles are probably Scholars or Merchants, depending on disposition. what does that mean? i don't like this disposition business. please explain. >NOTES: >o I changed 'Teacher' to 'Merchant', since a scholar is most likely tto attract students. >o The Laborer archetype was hard to define, since they aren't very sskilled and I'm not sure what abilities to give them. Perhaps laborer could be combined with artisan? the whole point of being a laborer is not being skilled at anything financially valuable. instead they should have skills like drinking, gambling, brawling, dancing, etc. ... >o These still don't really cover my 'explorer' archetype, which is aan outdoorsman or traveler with some fighting ability. Perhaps such a character should use a standard adventuring class. where did you derive these classes from? the categories seem somewhat arbitrary and incomplete. Where, for instance, do bureaucrats fit in? anyway just trying to be helpful in my ornery way, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 02.22 24/03/98 -0800, Matthew Levy wrote: >>thrones collecting taxes. And for the military, the only way that level Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:56:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #192 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: c721bb6072314d8e379045dd18db3063 >>and rank can directly be tied is if everyone starts out at the bottom (private) and can work their way to the top (general) only through experience, which basically has never ever happened in the history of the world in any country that I know of. >Just a question: in another thread you say that RW meteorology doesn't necessarily work on fantasy worlds like Mystara, so why should RW social patterns work? Your logic is impeccable. My only response is that I am more emotionally invested in sociology than in meteorology. Unlike with social issues, I don't often meet people whose views about weather I find ideologically offensive, and I guess I just never thought weather patterns were important or interesing enought to get in the way of a good story. On the other hand, social relationships fascinate me endlessly, especially the way they get reflected in fantasy worlds. I don't find a "fantasy sociology" where rank accurately reflects merit compelling or interesting. What is much more interesting to me is a world where (like the real world) there are many people who THINK that rank reflects merit, but they are fools, and the reality is actually a lot grittier. There's just much more interesting role playing tension that way. But no, RW social patterns don't have to work, and anyway what I'm suggesting isn't really meant to be completely realistic, just not totally unrealistic, that's all. >Sergeants SHOULD be more experienced > >(and thus more powerful) than their officers all the time. >Does this work only for standard all-fighters armies or for every sort of army that can be found in a fantasy world? For example, the Glantrian army has some mage-only units. Should mage-sergeants be more experienced (i.e. higher level) than mage-officers? that's an excellent point. i guess it would depend upon how mages gain experience, and how the army works. the glantrian army has never seemed to me to be well enough fleshed out for me to figure out the answer to that question. certainly it is possible that in a mage unit, rank and ability would be more closely tied ... but even there, the thing an officer would require would NOT be high-firepower spells, but the tactical knowledge needed to coordinate a bunch of spell casters. so it might even be that the officers tend to be fighters! >>I guess for a world like Mystara that makes sense, so I won't try to talk you out of it ... but I will point out that (especially since the advent of rules for humanoid PCs) this tends to really reduce the scariness and significance of most monsters, making only humanoids really significant opponents (since they can rise in levels) >In fact I rarely use 0-level humanoids. me neither. only sometimes that "everybody gets 5 hp" thing can be really convenient. >>whereas formerly scary beasties >>can now only threaten the most below-average characters. Which is okay, but it takes some of the charge out of D&D i think. >Probably with high level PC you're right. no, not just with high level PCs. because what you're saying is that high level and mid level characters are fairly common, so if you get attacked by a monster in the wilderness, all you need to do is look for the nearest town, you're bound to find a 15th level stud or two who will clean up the problem in a cinch. it doesn't give a beholder an even break, you know? peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:31:01 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. >What do you guys think? I tried ot upload it with my post. oops! view it at: http://cwspot.com/Mystara/Tinman/ergoth3.gif I know he will have a page or two about it soon at http://cwspot.com/Mystara/Tinman/ Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:04:21 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: [MYSTARA] - NetLogos HEy, Where can I get the other logos that were in the Mystara Netlogo contest. I would like to make a few of them into a background for our SaveMyatara forums and web pages! Also Only a few have email us to tell us why mystara should be saved and reprinted. Gives us your Ideas and thoughts! mailto: SaveMystara@cmnwrld.com The more names we get the more likely we will see Mystara back in print! Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:23:15 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Oasis [was Re: Size of Mystara] >Lots of good conflict between two 'good' peoples there. Another interesting possible development: some of the "sons of the desert" might *oppose* the change of their traditional lifestyle, so you could have a conservative vs. liberal conflict within Yluarum. Actually, I'd hate to see Yluarum change permanently because it's kind of cool. So is Alfheim, and even more so if the forest is magical. Here's a thought: maybe the elves don't steal the rain on purpose, but the mere presence of a large group of such magical beings causes a subtle magic which encourages forest growth. So the only way to get rid of the forest is for the elves to migrate elsewhere. Or maybe the "trees of life" radiate a regional magic causing forest growth. How this might affect Yluarum is anyone's guess; maybe the elf-wood has nothing to do with Yluarum, and it's just a notion dreamed up by a jealous desert cult. It might even be a myth perpetrated by certain fire-elementals who seek to divert attention from the *real* cause of the desert! Or, maybe Alfheim contains a gate to the Plane of Water, Yluarum to the Plane of Fire, and Rockhome to the Plane of Earth. (I don't know about the Air gate; maybe it is far *above* all three, forming the apex of a tetrahedral elemental "pyramid" and is the realm of cloud-castles and flying ships.) Just a thought. :-) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:56:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >Mlevy wrote: >>Actually, I meant that "race" itself is an ideological concept, and the origin of the "demi-humans" and "humanoids" in D&D, with their genetic differences in character and alignment, and their perpetual racial antagonisms, are derived from fantasy sources, particularly Tolkein, which reflect RW racial ideologies. >Okay so far. >It is not a coincidence that the >>great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. >Whah?? You make a rather strong statement here! Which part is too strong? They were racists (and you can find evidence in their writings of this), and I believe this is not coincidental, because the imagery of fantasy in this period (ancient warrior-types slaughtering the forces of darkness) was coming from an intellectual and cultural context that was intimately connected with RW political issues. >>Understand that I am not saying these guys were Nazis, but they certainly weren't liberals either. Tolkein was quoted as saying that he thought the idea of the Aryan Master Race was a wonderful one, although he didn't like the way Hitler had "corrupted" it, and Lovecraft wrote essays supporting the KKK and bad poetry about the "inferiority" of blacks. >Now Matt, you have never given me a source for your Tolkien quote! I apologize that I am unable to give you a source, as I do not own the book and do not remember the exact source, and do not have time for additional library research right now. I am however quite certain that he said it, and so all I can do is ask you to indulge me on my word. >The basic idea >>of post-Tolkein fantasy - good, lawful, and noble humans, elves, and dwarves vs. the scurrilous, inferior orc/goblin hordes of chaos - is more or less a metaphor for European racism and imperialism, particularly the conflict between the West and the Middle East. >But the more I think of this the more I recall that orcs are more suggestive of the worst of humans while elves and dwarves certainly have their own faults. The high men are not us. This is an important thing to remember. It is suggested toward the end of the trilogy that the high men are a dying sub race of man. They are more a noble example for us to look up toward. I do not believe Tolkien ever meant to suggest that the high men exist today in any form. Here again this is not what I was arguing. Of course Tolkien intended this as a fantasy; my point is that the fantasy is a kind of metaphor for the sort of RW Tolkien would have liked to see, and perhaps believed once existed. The notion of a dying sub race of superior people is, I think, intended to evoke the image of the "old guard" of Europe, the aristocracy, who were widely argued at that time to actually be a separate race. In fact, the same person came up with the twin ideas of race and class .. he was a French aristocrat, natch. And yes, elves and dwarves have faults, and orcs are like bad humans ... but that's exactly my point. These groups are self-contained, clearly defined types with emotional and moral characteristics determined by their genes and ranked on a scale of nobility and righteousness. This same framework, applied to the RW, was a very common way (before Hitler) of viewing human beings, in spite of the fact (defended at the time only by a very few, more cautious anthropologists, and by Marxists) that "races" of humans are NOT clearly defined, self-contained, or linked genetically to anything beyond certain basic physical characteristics. The creation of a fantasy world where race is of such significance was made possible by an ideological view of the real world in which race was central. >>interesting to see how different the values from which the game was spawned are from those that I consciously espouse, and I wonder sometimes what is going on with it at a subconscious level. I find this fascinating, and I enjoy D&D in a somewhat ironic fashion because of it. And I think that this irony can help at interesting complexity and added fun to the game because of this. >It is funny the differences in the way you and I look at this. We both see the same thing but our interpretations are totally different. I agree with you that the idea of racial bonuses or penalties is one that should make us uncomfortable. Is it racism? I don't believe it is. I don't believe the differences in the fantasy races make one superior to another. That's not my point and it never was. I think you misunderstand what I mean by "racism". I am not trying to argue that dwarves and elves should have the same stats as humans or anything so naively liberal. I don't want to make the game politically correct by eliminating race... if you did that, the game would to a large extent fall apart. What I am saying is that we should recognize the centrality of race to the fantasy world we play in, and also recognize that this concern with race is an ideological product of our culture's history and politics. That's all. >Are there not differences in real life races? I mean physical difference? >Blacks have higher arches in their feet and Asians have eyefolds. I would say that neither of these characteristics make one inferior or superior. This is irrelevant to what I am talking about. Of course there are physical characteristics which can be used to differentiate racial origins (although even there, the categories are a lot fuzzier than you would think, and they are constituted differently in different cultures). But as you say, there is no logical connection between these physical peculiarities and any grounds for claims of superiority or inferiority. Yet we talk about race all the time in ways that do imply cultural or intellectual characteristics, in spite of the fact that there is no scientific basis for such ascriptions. >Taking the argument a different direction: Do racists specifically point to physical differences in races to explain why one race is superior? I have never heard a racist use so much logic whether he is white or black. Sure they do. I have heard many racists refer to physical differences - this is a defining aspect of racism per se as opposed to cultural chauvinism (saying some groups are culturally but not genetically inferior). But I think it's even deeper than this: I think the very fact that we are unable to think ourselves out of the naturalized categories of race (so that for us, the difference between white and black seems obvious, in a way that is not obvious for a brazilian) is a victory for the ideology of racism already. it's deconstructing the obviousness of those categories that can help us think through the way we see the world. and i see no reason why this can't apply to a fantasy world too. >In short, I do not consider the D&D rules racist simply because judgements are not made on the differences. But like I said, we should be uncomfortable with these differences. i don't understand what you mean here. I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable; i want to suggest that D&D is a product of racial ideology (whether that makes it *racist* or not is a semantic issue that i find pointless to argue) and i want to talk openly and frankly about the implications of this. >>>>so I've discussed with Daly the proposition that D&D is in many ways a subtly racist and imperialistic game. >>>What things have you spotted to be sign of racism or imperialism ? I can think in some of them but i'd love to read what you have discovered. I'm sure you have been more subtle. >>Well, I think the biggest example is in the goblinoid races. These races are sometimes equated with "barbaric" or "savage" RW cultures, but never with "civilized" ones (with the exception of Kol's Kobolds). The Red Orcs are a nasty stereotype of Native Americans (admittedly counterbalanced to some extent by the humans of Atruaghin), the Yellow Orcs are a nasty version of Mongols (again, opposed to the more respectable Ethengars), and the Kara-kara of X8 are pretty obviously intended as a mockery of Melanesians. Overall TSR has been careful when it creates *human* cultures based on RW non-western groups to always try to be positive and "multi-cultural" (which has its own problems), but there is definitely an inherent bias in the use of non-humans. Think about what it would be like, for instance, if there were English or French or Spanish or German-speaking Orcs, or Bugbears ... hard to picture, right? >Actually not at all. I rather like the idea. I don't know about anyone else, but when a RW language is used in the KW, I do not equate it with that KW culture. For instance, I do not consider the Ethengarians to be related to the Mongols at all. Yes, their culture resembles it. But when I think Ethengar, I do not think Mongol. this is hard to buy. if the authors of the original mystara products didn't want to draw upon RW imagery and ideas, they would have created all new cultures (but of course, even then they would have had to draw upon lots of stock fantasy imagery anyway, it's pretty hard to get outside of). Art imitates life, and the thing that makes the Ethengars appealing as a fantasy people is that we can draw upon our images of Mongols while playing the game. How can you say that this doesn't affect your view of them? Do you consciously purge all knowledge of RW Mongols from your mind when you play in Mystara? How would you do this? >But we have >>feline and dog-headed European cultures on Mystara ... because Rakasta and Lupins have been portrayed as noble and good. OOrcs, who are inherently >>evil, can be native americans, or asians, or pacific islanders, but not europeans. catch my drift? >Well there are "Spanish" humanoids in the Red Steel setting. And further, different KW countries are at times ally or adversary of the pc. I can think of no culture that is not represented by both human and humanoid. Unless one considers that there are no noble, horseback riding orcs... I think that the lack of noble horseback riding orcs is an excellent one ... for some reason horses in particular have always been associated with nobility and those who don't ride are seen as suspicious (look at how much more noble the Plains Indians are portrayed as in western mythology than other non-civilized types). and i thought that the vast majority of the red steel humanoids are actually "savage" types, while the civilized countries are predominantly human. and there are plenty of cultures that are almost all human ... so i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. >In any case, all cultures have had their good and bad sides. It goes with the territory of being human. It is nice to have a "race" or "species" that can be normally evil. Gives the pcs something to be heroic about. At the same time, I do not consider it heroic to mindlessly slaughter every living thing even if you do believe it is inherently evil. Everything should be given a chance to reform. but where do you get these moral views from? look at the history of concepts such as "heroism" or "reform" - or, heck,for that matter even good and evil. Even if you have more "liberal" PCs who try to convert the orcs instead of slaughtering them, you are still operating within a metaphoric context where European civilization is the definition of goodness and right thinking, and the model to which others must be adjusted. >But no human or demi-human culture in the KW is always good. That has to be pointed out. There is this idea that while dwarves create beautiful things as a whole, there are individual humans who can far surpass them in creation. While elves as a race can all become proficient in magic, there are individual humans who can far surpass them in this field. This is both the great strength and the great weakness of humans. While humans can individually surpass the other races in skills, they can also surpass them in evil. >I am rather uncomfortable using the term "race" at all to describe the different groups. It has a very specific meaning for us that is not applied here. This is where I guess that I feel you are dodging the issue. I've tried to show that this concept of "race" is exactly what the "source authors" were trying to evoke in their use of the term. I have a feeling that you are uncomfortable because you want to have a more liberal or at least not racist view of the world and you want a fantasy world that reflects this without all the troubling moral baggage of RW history. I suppose, as always, that you can have whatever kind of fantasy world you like ... I'm just here trying to present my reasoning as to why I feel it can be more interesting to have a more sophisticated, critical understanding of the symbolism being used in the creation of that world; it's like dream analysis, in a way. I want to figure out why I like the things I like, and I'm not afraid to find out that there may be a little bit of fascism in me here and there (in fact I sometimes wonder if the subconscious itself isn't inherently fascist), because I think that this is the best way for me to overcome that part (rather than simply asserting that it isn't there). As I've said, I will argue forcefully for my position but my aim is not to annoy; I hope everything I've said will be taken in the spirit of respectful debate. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #192 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, March 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 193 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Campaign Newsletter Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - NetLogos [MYSTARA] - responses and requests Re: [MYSTARA] - responses and requests Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - responses and requests Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:14:21 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - Campaign Newsletter Here's the first newsletter from my Mystaran Birthright PBeM. It's mostly meant for reading, not incorporating it into your campaign, but who knows? maybe you can get some ideas out of it... The Poor Wizard's Newsletter Welcome to the first issue of the Poor Wizard's Newsletter! This enterprise was founded by Rikard Prospero, a humble mage living in Thyatis City, and its goal is to inform the people of Mystara about happenings around the Known World. So here are the major news of the previous month, Vatermont. Southeastern Mystara Thyatis Thyatian engineers have constructed a road connecting the Vyalia province to the rest of the country's road network in Kerendas. Almost immediately, caravans started exporting elven goods and even minor magical items and components from Vyalia to Kerendas. The caravans are sponsored by Demetrion, Magist to the Emperor. It was rumored that Demetrion was granted exemption from the Emperor's recent decree on trade. Emperor Thincol Torion has declared that it is henceforth unlawful for any resident of the Empire to construct any kind of fortifications without prior consent of the government. The Imperial forces have put down a minor rebellion in Trevanion Hills. It is rumored that before the army could kill them, the rebels disappeared as if by magic. In any case, Trevanion hills has suffered a loss of population that will negatively affect both trade and religious worship in the area. Both Glorious Wings of Vanya and Valerias' House of Passions have recovered somewhat from last month's hot religious disputes. The leaders of both temples have said, however, that their Immortal patrons will not tolerate the prevalence of the other church. Endless Seas of Protius, as always, has kept well away from the argument, content with its share of worship. Karameikos The Grand Duchy of Karameikos announced its formal alliance with the Church of Karameikos. The alliance terms allow the Church to maintain two companies of knights in the large cities, and state that the state and the Church will work together to improve the spiritual and physical needs of the people of Karameikos. Patriarch Olliver Jowett is also granted the right to preside over all marriages and coronations of the Grand Duke and his immediate family. The Patriarch has announced the formation of the Order of the Griffon, an organization of knights devoted to the Church. Currently, representatives of Duke Stefan are negotiating alliance terms with the Church of Traladara as well. This month, Karameikan troops headed by the mage guildmaster Teldon defeated a horde of goblins who were menacing travelers in Dymrak Forest. It is once again safe to travel in the area, for now. Once again, members of the tiny Cult of Halav have marched on the streets of Specularum, praising Duke Stefan as incarnation of the ancient mythical King Halav. They also preached loudly against the other Churches in the city, though as usual, most people ignored their ravings. Minrothad The formal alliance between the State and Church of Minrothad was announced this month. Guildmaster Oran Meditor and High Priest Elian Farendir have signed the document in the country's capital. To symbolise the union, a statue of Minroth, Immortal patron of the nation, has been commissioned in Minrothad City. Ylaruam Unusually many immigrants were noted this month in the emirate of Nithia. Traditionally thought as the most backwater of the emirates, Nithia has been getting fresh blood from the new settlers. Hattias Persistent rumors continue, telling of huge hordes of undead warriors awakened from their slumber by Count Oesterhaus's dark magic. If this is indeed so, the realms bordering Hattias may be in great danger from the unyielding undead legions. Southwestern Mystara Sind/Hule Minor flooding has been reported in the province of Azadgal, as the Asanda River rose from its banks due to above average rainfall. The flooding has not caused any major damages, but travel is expected to be difficult in Azadgal for the rest of the season. The Holy Temple of Bozdogan, supported by the Master of Hule, has initiated a campaign against the Three Incarnations of Ixion. Chandra ul Nervi was helpless to prevent the contest of his temples. After that, the Master continued opposing Chandra on a more physical level. The Master's forces moved into Jalawar, to fight the rebel forces gathered there. Chandra's forces were aided by his mage, Jarita Maruti, and the Master's forces were lead by a black-robed wizard. Witnesses tell that both mages unleashed spells destroying whole units, finally dueling between themselves. Though the rebels inflicted over 1000 in casualties on the Master's forces, they were defeated, and Chandra and Jarita barely got away. Ierendi Ierendi has signed a trade agreement with Minrothad. All guilders are now welcome to establish sea trade routes between the two realms. However, it is thought that Guildmaster Oran Meditor does not wish to see trade routes of Linton House anywhere near his provinces. The Meditor Guild also expanded its operations in Ierendi, now controlling more than half of the main island's economy. More than half of the population of Ierendi Isle now worship at the temple of Al-Kalim. This religion from Ylaruam has been steadily gaining importance for the past decade. Atruaghin Clans Reports tell that a large raiding party from the Tiger Clan crossed the border of Darokin and attacked the caravan carrying taxes and trade goods in the province of Tenobar. A significant amount of goods has been stolen by the raiders. Central Mystara Darokin A trade agreement has been signed between Glantri and the Republic of Darokin, despite protests from the Merchants' Consortium. All guilders are invited to establish trade routes between the two countries. This may, however, prove difficult just yet, as no road communication exists between the countries yet, and establishing one will be hard with the humanoid-filled Broken Lands in the middle. After the establishment of several trade routes by Darokin's merchant houses last month, the Chancellor decided to follow their example and start shipping goods from Darokin to Akorros. Alfheim King Doriath was once again unavailable for meetings this month. His advisors say that the King is engaged in important research and cannot be interrupted. Rockhome Dignitaries from King Everast have journeyed to Karameikos, there to discuss a possibility of a trade agreement between the two nations. Five Shires Diplomats from the Shires have left at the beginning of the month to Darokin, to negotiate a trade agreement between the two countries. Warleader Jaervosz Dustyboots also announced the formation of a new unit of infantry on the eastern border. Northeastern Mystara Heldann It is quite clear now that High Cleric Wulf von Klagendorf intends to take control of the trade in his realm, as another guild was founded in Grauenberg this month. Ethengar Some Ethengarian mages have reported feeling an unusual magical disturbance in the Kiyats province. Even Bakalgu, Moglai Khan's hakomon, is baffled by its origin. On another magical happening, Moglai Khan has announced that Bakalgu now has the right to manage the magical power of the Land of the Black Sand, until recently under the control of Ckartai the Necromancer. The Black Sand has large magic potential, enough to make any mage envious of its controller. Moglai Khan has also hired a new advisor, Akmad ibn Yussef. Akmad is a blooded mage from Ylaruam who has good skills in diplomacy and magic. It is said that he already received a mission from the Great Khan. Strife erupted among the two Ethengarian temples this month. The chaos-worshipping priests of Cretia started vandalizing the shrines of Yamuga, and the earthmother's followers counterattacked in kind. Moglai Khan has not commented on the situation yet. The Northern Reaches King Hord of Ostland ordered the construction of a grand palace such as the world has never seen in his capital city of Zeaburg. The King refused to comment on the purpose of such extravagance. He also appointed Hygelac the Doubter, jarl of Romaland, as the head of his Diplomatic Corps. Northwestern Mystara Glantri Some farmers have reported witnessing a huge battle between Glantrian forces and the undead hordes of Brannart McGregor. Although Prince Etienne d'Ambreville has called upon mighty magics before the battle, annihilating a large part of Brannart's forces, some undead still remained, and they inflicted heavy casualties before the Glantrians managed to destroy them. It is rumored that Glantri's casualties reached 1200 men, including a large part of Glantri's war mage force. On a more positive note, a trade agreement has been signed between Glantri and Darokin. Broken Lands Hundreds of goblins have been seen moving into Broken Lands from the Orcland in Darokin and Khurish Massif on the Sind/Glantri border. This does not bode well for the surrounding nations, as King Thar's humanoid hordes are ever increasing. Shadow Elves No reports were received about the mysterious Shadow Elves, although a Darokinian farmer reported seeing some shadowy shapes moving in the forest of Alfheim. Advertisements and Announcements This section is reserved for various announcements that regents wish to make. Any regent can get his announcement posted to everyone. Chandra ul Nervi, former Rajadhiraja of Sind, sends a plea for help: "Send all aid you can, for if I should fall, the rest of the world will be next." Master of Hule, conqueror of Sind, sends a message to all regents: "Should any of you desire to submit to me as my vassals, your lives and property will be spared. All others will be utterly destroyed. Anyone giving any aid to the puny rebels within my country will be marked as the first to die." ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:17:35 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >Well then, here's my two cents. Perhaps something should be made like the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri. Why should the Glantrians be the only ones with there own special forms of magic? Also, someone mentioned Traladaran magic, maybe they could be given Wokani abilities? Secret Crafts in Karameikos is something I have thought about as well. However, I think it sould take many years for Karemeikos mages to develope such crafts, unless they can learn them from someone. Getting such information from Glantri is a possiblity, though I dont think the glantrians would be very willing to share their abilities. Now, if the Alphatians have developed such abilities long ago, such wizards could teach at the School of Magecraft. The native mages of Karameikos are far too inexperienced to have known these things earlier. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:37:48 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Lord BKis1 wrote: >I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far to harsh. >It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a whole level). I had the idea of having the undead draining ability scores rather than levels. Some undead would drain con and others str. On the average, they will drain two points from a stat for every level they would drain, normally. Ability scores can then be regained through training. just an idea. I think there was somethging about this in dragon some time. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:55:19 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - NetLogos At 12:04 AM 3/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >HEy, >Where can I get the other logos that were in the Mystara Netlogo contest. I would like to make a few of them into a background for our SaveMyatara forums and web pages! Afraid the old logos aren't available any longer. They aren't in the public domain. TSR said that after the winner was chosen, all others returned to the ownership of their creators and I don't have the emails anymore. Sorry. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:39:11 EST From: Flindor Subject: [MYSTARA] - responses and requests - -undead and level draining: I feel that to do away with losing levels lowers the horror that PC's are supposed to feel when they encounter them. As for running away, some undead move rather fast (some can fly) so avoidance should be real difficult unless the DM is ignoring encumbrance etc. Once a PC loses a level in my campaign (this happened last time out) the PC normally seeks out a high level cleric (preferably of the same belief) to get the levels back. The cleric would want something in return which leads to a small solo adventure to get rid of some evil that's been troubling the cleric. My personal rule is that the PC gets no experience for this solo effort, getting your level back (and possibly some treasure and a reputation) is enough! - - Where exactly is the Savage Coast? I don't own anything about it and can't find it on any maps. - - Anybody out there with b3: silver princess: On the first level map there is a secret door near areas #30-32 heading east, where does it go? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:46:04 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - responses and requests In a message dated 98-03-25 09:55:13 EST, you write: << - Where exactly is the Savage Coast? I don't own anything about it and can't find it on any maps. Well...the best thing for you to do would be to download the Savage Coast from TSR's website. Its all there and its all free. If you have the Champions of Mystara boxed set, just look for the city-state of Slagovich on one of the large maps. Due west of that city is the Savage Baronies and the rest of the Savage Coast. Its a really intresting place, I HIGHLY advise you grab it. - Anybody out there with b3: silver princess: On the first level map there is a secret door near areas #30-32 heading east, where does it go? >> That is an intresting question.....it just seems to go to nowhere; no documantation....no numbering....nothing......Well, there are a bunch of Giant Rats in that area....I'd say the secret door led to the rats lair or something like that....unless somebody else can figure out where that door leads Al *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:05:31 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft << >Thanks! I hope everyone will contribute to this. >> I'm not sure how many of you read The Black Vessel by Morris Simon, but I really liked one of the characters in it; Mazrooth al Yedom, An Inheritor Mage from the Barony of Almarron. His main area of study is the Red Curse and its effects and perhaps, one day, a cure. Perhaps to bridge the gap between the Known World and the Savage Coast, old Mazrooth could be a teacher at this School. It would remain to be seen how he left the Cursed areas and why, but its nothing that a good imagination could not fix. Any thoughts on this? Al *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:04:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #193 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 1477c7356e93e7e40f77b2cd26cb2e88 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:24:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - responses and requests At 10:46 AM 3/25/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-25 09:55:13 EST, you write: --- Anybody out there with b3: silver princess: On the first level map there iis >a secret door near areas #30-32 heading east, where does it go? >> >That is an intresting question.....it just seems to go to nowhere; no documantation....no numbering....nothing......Well, there are a bunch of Giant >Rats in that area....I'd say the secret door led to the rats lair or something >like that....unless somebody else can figure out where that door leads Actually there is a very simple answer. Those early modules often had tunnels that lead off the edge of the "official" map in order to provide the DM room for expanding the adventure. The secret door is to be found only if the DM has actually made plans for it. I can't locate the reference now, but having recently run the module I remember the door being mentioned somewhere and this explanation given. In fact, when I ran the module I had the characters follow a tunnel from the Caves of Chaos (B2) to that secret door. I completely bypassed the programmed adventure from the beginning of B3. I had the characters become aware of the red glow through a book found in B2 and by the "tunnel" coming above ground at one point a few miles from, but still in sight of, Haven. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:27:05 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues At 11:56 PM 3/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>Mlevy wrote: >>>Actually, I meant that "race" itself is an ideological concept, and the origin of the "demi-humans" and "humanoids" in D&D, with their genetic differences in character and alignment, and their perpetual racial antagonisms, are derived from fantasy sources, particularly Tolkein, which reflect RW racial ideologies. >>Okay so far. >>It is not a coincidence that the >>>great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. >>Whah?? You make a rather strong statement here! >Which part is too strong? They were racists (and you can find evidence in their writings of this), and I believe this is not coincidental, because the imagery of fantasy in this period (ancient warrior-types slaughtering the forces of darkness) was coming from an intellectual and cultural context that was intimately connected with RW political issues. >>>Understand that I am not saying these guys were Nazis, but they certainly weren't liberals either. Tolkein was quoted as saying that he thought the idea of the Aryan Master Race was a wonderful one, although he didn't like the way Hitler had "corrupted" it, and Lovecraft wrote essays supporting the KKK and bad poetry about the "inferiority" of blacks. >>Now Matt, you have never given me a source for your Tolkien quote! >I apologize that I am unable to give you a source, as I do not own the book and do not remember the exact source, and do not have time for additional library research right now. I am however quite certain that he said it, and so all I can do is ask you to indulge me on my word. Since this elusive quote is a defining factor in your argument, I am not going to bother discussing the idea of "Tolkien being a racist" any longer. Once you find the quote, let me know and I will draw my conclusions and continue the argument. As I've said, I will argue forcefully for my pposition but my aim is not to annoy; I hope everything I've said will be taken in the spirit of respectful debate. You don't annoy me. Actually I think you are a good debater. But we differ on some fundamentals... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:29:33 -0500 From: Daly Subject: [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav I just dug this up from an old adventure. It is related to the campaign I ran that took a group (called themselves "Halav's Avengers") from the Caves of Chaos to the Palace of the Silver Princess to The temple of Elemental Evil and eventually through many twists and turns back in time to meet Halav himself. Enjoy it, destroy it... - -------------------------------------------------------- The Song of Halav consists of several parts: 1)the prologue 2) the gifts of the immortals 3)the binding of Arik 4) the final battle and 5) the ultimate reward. During the Winter ceremonies the Traldar will gather in family groups and sing the Song of Halav as one of their most sacred beliefs THE PROLOGUE A full thousand years before the crowning of the first Thyation emperor In the time of the Alphatian landfall when the world was young Men were left to their own devices by the gods who retreated To their secret valley. THE GIFTS OF THE IMMORTALS To Halav Redhair, he the great to be king They gave the secret of the forge and all weapon making. To Petra, she all sacred things believing Granted they the gift of warmth from the treasures of weaving. To Zirchev, huntsman bold all forest way knowing To him was given of old the knowledge of magic for his going. THE BINDING OF ARIK In this part of the tale Petra and Zirchev bind Arik to a secret place to prevent him from harrying mankind. Halav had to rouse a rebellious king for the upcoming battle with the beastmen. Mention is made of "The vyngaunce of Halav". THE FINAL BATTLE The companions, reunited made ready for war with the beastmen. They gathered their armies and met the foe at some unknown location. But the overall battle quickly gave way to the spectacle of Halav and the beastman leader doing single combat among the armies. For three days the battle raged with neither giving quarter. Each combatant is described in great detail. Halav’s armor and weapon sparkled with the sun and his muscles bulged with the exertion. The beastman leader was 8’ tall and fully animalistic. Finally the beastman falls and the evil army slinks away in shame. After seeing them to the horizon Halav too falls. THE ULTIMATE REWARD It is said that the immortals then spirited Halav, Petra, and Zircev away to sit beside them as immortals. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:25:00 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft At 11:05 AM 3/25/98 EST, you wrote: >I'm not sure how many of you read The Black Vessel by Morris Simon, but I really liked one of the characters in it; Mazrooth al Yedom, An Inheritor Mage from the Barony of Almarron. His main area of study is the Red Curse and >its effects and perhaps, one day, a cure. It's in my bookcase but I've not yet read it. >Perhaps to bridge the gap between the Known World and the Savage Coast, old Mazrooth could be a teacher at this School. It would remain to be seen how he left the Cursed areas and why, but its nothing that a good imagination could not fix. Sounds good so far. >Any thoughts on this? Yes. Write it up for us! ;) - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:47:40 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) << Mainly I was trying to keep it simple. In the existing system, all of humanity is divided into one of the four classes: if he's smart he's a magic-user, if she is quick she's a thief. >> This kind of play shouldn't be encouraged by the DM. One of my PCs has a dexterity of 18 and a strength of 16. Guess his class! He is a fighter! Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:47:36 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara << many snipped >> << I like Mystara too, which is why I don't want it changed without good reason. >> And now something has happened what I never expected. I have to agree to Matthew. These guys from TSR did some good work and some not so good work, and often the stuff is inconsistent. But as a whole it was brillant and I really see no need to make such great changes as to increase the size of the planet. BTW, in RW we have cold and warm ocean drifts. Look at the Gulf Stream, Labrador Stream and Humboldt Stream. On Mystara we have even more effects like the often cited gate to the plane of fire in Ylaruam. (Don't forget the similar gates in Norwold!) A try to seek logic in that is really fruitless. It's an complete chaotic system. And at last a meta-mathematical theorem from Kurt Goedel: "There is no logical system without contradictions." When this is true for every mathematical system, it must be true for a fictional planet. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:00:22 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) << This kind of play shouldn't be encouraged by the DM. One of my PCs has a dexterity of 18 and a strength of 16. Guess his class! >> I have this a lot in my campaigns.....you have to realize that the most sucessfull thieves (for example) are not necessarily the fastest.....sometimes they're the smartest. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 11:02:00 PST From: MichaelX Harvey Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: TTThis had occurred to me also. In fact, the standard adventuring classes did not even really exist as a stereotype in medieval society (with the possible exception of thieves)... >Not true. Soldiers and priests were both recognized as distinct social classes, and at least in certain places and times "witch" or "wizard" were well defined categories. I meant that the "D&D" form of these classes is not historical. There were warriors, but they were knights who were born to their position, and were probably seen as oppressors rather than heroes or adventurers; a peasant couldn't become a fighter and carry arms and earn rank or title. There were priests, but they did not fight or wield obvious magic. There were wizards and witches, but they were feared and throught to be eternally damned, not the scholarly scientific types found in D&D. So while there were exceptions, the stereotypes in D&D are modern, not medieval. A medieval game would look a lot more like C&S or Ars Magica. I could however see the D&D stereotypes fitting into the renaissance to a certain degree (and IMHO the social structure of the D&D world resembles the renaissance/colonial era more than it does the medieval.) >Anyway my system also >included a general social class called "adventurer", meaning someone who switched professions a lot and had led an adventurous life, as opposed to someone who stayed in one career ... Sounds like Warhammer. It had some cool ideas, but I thought there were too many classes, and don't really like the idea of changing classes frequently. >Domestics definitely do have an identifiable profession, it's just not one that is part of the "public job market" True, I did not mean to imply that they have no skills, just that it is difficult to pin them down in D&D terms. I tried to write one up, but could think of no abilities for an "adventuring mom" or any benefits from level advancement... maybe you have 10% chance per level to get the stains out of the laundry? :-) Actually if a campaign focused on everyday life at home, a domestic would have all sorts of cool abilities and could be fun to play. >And nobles also have professional requirements ... they need to be educated, well-mannered, sportsmanlike, etc. in order to get by ... these things take much time and training. Yes I think Nobles need their own class -- the ideas you mention above are very good. >>Abilities common to all Normals: [snip] >these are kind of interesting. but why not make this compatible with regular classes too? (fit everything into one system) Originally I started out to rewrite D&D, and it looked a lot like what I posted above. It would work, but I decided that Steve Jackson already did it better and more thoroughly and I didn't care for his results. ;-) >>Artisan >>o May learn any thief skill by spending one skill slot on it >artisans might be good at removing traps or picking locks, but why would they learn to backstab or hide in shadows? I would not allow backstab, but then I don't consider that a skill as much as a lack of ethics... ;-) I don't know why they'd learn hiding, but I don't see any reason they couldn't if they wanted to. >>o Become a MASTER ARTISAN at 9th level. May create a new guild [snip] >I like this. In fact I think there should be more magic items around that are not made by traditional wizards. aren't there rules in the dwarf gaz about this? I don't know, I don't have any of the gazetteers. But this would explain all the nameless +1 magic items floating around... >>Laborer >now this doesn't sound all that much different from a fighter. wearing armor is actually a fairly difficult thing ... there should be a little more difficulty involved here. True. Laborer was a difficult one, similar in many ways to domestic. The main reason I gave the fighter abilities is because I couldn't think of anything more appropriate for a big guy who spends all day breaking rocks with a hammer. >>Merchant (shrewd, communicative people) [was Teacher] Requisite: WIS >shouldn't being a merchant require charisma, not wisdom? To me, wisdom implies discernment (evaluating a fair price, detecting lies) and shrewdness (striking a good deal, managing your money). But I agree that CHA plays a big factor too. In a way, both merchants and clerics are salesmen, they just peddle different products. Both can benefit greatly from CHA, but do not require it. A crusty merchant without charisma is probably a low-profile speculator or banker rather than someone hawking wares on the street. >>o Wear armor as a cleric; may use any weapon >wearing armor as a cleric is identical to wearing armor as a fighter. I wanted to allow traveling merchants to have moderate fighting and adventuring ability. >who grants merchants lands and title? they BUY them. nobody is going to grant these. Good point. It'd be expensive too... >>Domestics may be any of the above. >>Nobles are probably Scholars or Merchants, depending on disposition. >what does that mean? i don't like this disposition business. please explain. Just that an outgoing, gregarious noble might use the Merchant class, while a shy intellectual one is a Scholar. (Just like in the standard system, some nobles are fighters, others are magic-users.) However you've convinced me that Nobles should have their own class. >>o The Laborer archetype was hard to define, since they aren't very ssskilled and I'm not sure what abilities to give them. Perhaps laborer could be combined with artisan? >the whole point of being a laborer is not being skilled at anything financially valuable. instead they should have skills like drinking, gambling, brawling, dancing, etc. ... Hmm. You're right, but it doesn't have much play value. >where did you derive these classes from? the categories seem somewhat arbitrary and incomplete. Where, for instance, do bureaucrats fit in? Yep, they're arbitrary -- they were my first draft at doing "normals". By the time I'd posted them to the list I'd already changed my mind about some things, but thought you folks might be interested in seeing them anyway. I'm not sure whether I'd keep laborers or just replace them with 0-level fighters, since if you have no skills there no point in advancing in levels. As soon as you've learned anything worthwhile you're in a different class. Same with domestics -- there's not much point in assigning stats since they'll never adventure and don't have the appropriate skills anyway. I'd probably add Nobles; bureaucrats could be low-level "nobles", while real nobles (born into their position) would probably start at name level and go up from there. Also I'd probably add a few special classes for the fringe elements of society, like woodsmen and merchant-explorers. However these would be adventuring classes, not normals, and would have combat skills and special abilities. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #193 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:01:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #194 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 73fd9405a81612bee88529fa1f4a0483 mystara-digest Wednesday, March 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 194 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Humans (was: D&D, AD&D...etc) [MYSTARA] - Weather Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:22:41 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Humans (was: D&D, AD&D...etc) << I realize that Eddings peoples were stereotypes and we might want more realism in Mystara but it still could be fun looking into it. >> But it was really fun... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:22:46 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Weather Damn! Somewhere the bodies of my last mails were lost. If I only could remember what I wanted to say... One point I can still remember was this gate to the elemental plane of fire. I wanted to remind you that there are TWO such gates in Norwold, and we even know where. So when Ylaruam's weather is changed, so for sure Norwold's too. This as an addition to the discussion about Norwold. Jamuga Khan "Brave riders! Go and seek these mails! First mingam to the north, second to the west, third to the south, fourth to the east!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:40:02 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Ok....next question. Did the Nithians "disappear" before or after the planet tilted on its axis? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:53:38 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts >Question #1: Tortles. We know em, we love em, what about em? I know we seem to talk about Tortles all the time on this board, but where else in D&D/AD&D are they talked about. This is by far one of my favorite races in any setting. If nothing exists, Id LOVE to write up a little something about the the Tortles and what they are all about..from my humble point of view. I'd like a guide before I sail off into uncharted waters however. (lest the hate mail will pour in on how I ruined things and dont know jack about Mystara) I think Bruce Heard might already be working on this too....not gonna step on his toes. Bruce Heard is working on a Dragon Magazine article on the different types of Tortles in the Known World and The Savage Frontier to come in late Fall/Winter 98 >Question #2: The Oltecs. Who were they, where were they, and how did their descendants eventually get to the Savage Coast. (Comment: Mystaros wrote an EXCELLENT piece on the History of the Espan People for the MML. Check it out!) The Oltec are a group of early inhabitants of the Continent of Brun, and offshoot of them called the Azcan when east of the Gulf of Hule and inhabitated the lands of the Autraghin Clans, the Oltecs build a great civilization until the Nithian came and Wiped them out. Question #3: Nithia. Where exactly was Nithia before it was wiped from existance? Which modern countries sit where Nithia used to be? I know (only cause somebody told me) that Ylaraum has an Emirate called Nithia. Is this the same place? Nithia was in the Ylaraum desert, and it's empire stretched from modern day Thothia to the Savage Frontier and it covered the northern reaches as well, the Countries the cover where Nithia used to be are Darokin, Ylaruam, Thyatis, the Entire Isle of Dawn, Karameikos, The Northern Reaches, Sind, and it's colonies in the Savage Frontier anywhere where you can find Cinnabryll, they created it. Mystara Online has Added it's adaptions to Dungeon Magazine number 66, and will be adding a links page, and finish the adaption to the shark-kin/Shaughin trilogy, we're on the Mystara Ring Mystara Online is on http://members.tripod.com/~mktriton/index.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:06:58 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara Dllegend wrote on 3/23/98 >I was just thinking that after the Shadow Elves took over Alfheim, >didn't the forest go dry. The elves would use magic in order to keep the >weather in favorable conditions. Later the Shadow elves asked the original >elves who controlled the weather to come back in order to revive the forest to >its old glory. Well what I'm getting at is this: since the weather spells are >not in effect and the reason Ylaruam is a desert is because of the weather >changes that occurred when the elves used their weather magic. So if the magic >is not in affect (shadow elves don't have the right magic), wouldn't Ylaruam >start getting rain and better weather? No, Ylaraum is ringed by mountains and the rule gods at TSR said that Ylaruam has portal open to the plane of Fire which is to explain it's constant desert heat. it's mountains serves as a natural barrier by the immortal to keep the heat from moving into the other country >What if Ylaruam finds out that the key to Al-Kalim dream was in Alfheim and >the reason they had little water was because of the Alfheim elves. They wouldn't want the elves to come back to Canolbarth to cast their weather magic >and take away Ylaruam's precious water. Would this cause major problems with >the elves? A war? An alliance between Ylaruam and Aengmor? No, first of all Tenadelyo wants to patch things up with the exiled elves of Alfheim, so a war between the elves would happen for a long time, and an alliance between them is not likely because the radiant princess herself would rather trust the Darokinians first before trying to ally with the Desert rats of Ylaraum. >Correct me if I'm wrong please. Just going by memory. you stand corrected ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:26:34 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft LandoTW on 25 Mar 1998 11:05:31 EST wrote: ><< >Thanks! I hope everyone will contribute to this. >> >I'm not sure how many of you read The Black Vessel by Morris Simon, but I >really liked one of the characters in it; Mazrooth al Yedom, An Inheritor >Mage from the Barony of Almarron. His main area of study is the Red Curse and >its effects and perhaps, one day, a cure. >Perhaps to bridge the gap between the Known World and the Savage Coast, old >Mazrooth could be a teacher at this School. It would remain to be seen how >he left the Cursed areas and why, but its nothing that a good imagination >could not fix. >Any thoughts on this? >Al If you read the Black Vessel Carefully you'll discover a mention of a man who died after leaving the Cursed area by living in Slagovich and was killed by his own legacy the Poison Breath Legacy. stories like this one would discouraged Mezrooth al yedom to leave the cursed zone. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:32:20 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts >Ok....next question. >Did the Nithians "disappear" before or after the planet tilted on its axis? The Nithian empire was born and disappeared after the Great Rain of Fire. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:07:18 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Another message from Micheal Roy. I tried to send it earlier but it didn't show up on the list, sorry if you see this twice. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >It seems that my previous post about the size of Mystara was somewhat misinterpreted. Although I mentioned Hyborea was at 110 degrees N in Latitude, I am well aware that 110N does NOT EXIST: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. That was the message I was trying to relay in the first place. >So, I'll start over, hopefully being a bit more clear. >The Almanac (PWAs) state that Mystara has a circumference of 19,400 miles at the equator. Now, a pole to pole circumference is technically smaller since the poles are flatter than the equator, yet I will ignore this minor detail for the sake of this argument. In otherwords, I'm assuming a 19,400 miles circumference for a north to south circle as well. BBy dividing the circumference by 4, we get the distance for a quarter of the circle; that is, from the equator to a pole. In this case, 19,400 miles/4 = 4850 miles fro Equator to North Pole. Since there is 90 degrees of Latitude from equator to pole, we divide 4850 miles by 90 degrees and obtain approximately 53 miles per degree of Latitude. >The equator passes just south of the Jungle Coast (on Davania), within the Meghala Kimata Plains and Meghala Amosses Desert. AApproximately 1600 miles north of the equator, which is about the distance of Ceardwicca of the Isle Of Dawn, Kladanovic of the Serpent Peninsula, and just off the coast of the Savage Coast, we have the 30N latitude (1600 miles divided by 53 degrees per mile gives about 30 degrees N). This, so far, works well with what is given in the Almanac Maps (specifically, AC 1011 map). >Now, 60N should be another 1600 miles north of the 30N. At that distance is the location of Landfall (aprox. 3200 miles N.). Landfall should therefore be situated at the 60N Latitude. OOther locations (distances rounded off): NNorvikk 2950 miles N, or 55N >Oceansend 3550 miles N, or 67N >Alpha 4000 miles N, or 75N >Here on Earth, along the west coast of North America, 60N indicates the start of the tundra. That would mean that ALL of Norwold should be a tundra according to what they've given. >Add another 1600 miles to Landfall, for a total of 4800 miles, which lands exactly at the northern limits of the Norwold landmass (just before Frosthaven) and that should be the MATHEMATICAL location on 90N, or, in otherwords, the North Pole. This is the really obvious error to the size of Mystara! >As you can plainly see, this is NOT the location of the North Pole. The distance of northern edge of Hyborea (about 5800 miles N of the equator), using the same 53 miles per degree, gives Hyborea a location of 110 degrees N. This, of course, translates into 70N on the other side of the world. This means that Hyborea is overlapping the continent of Skothar. As you can see, this is completely off from ALL MAPS OF MYSTARA. It just cannot be. >BEST POSSIBLE SOLUTION. >Augment the circumference of Mystara to 24,400 miles. By dividing this distance by 4, we obtain 6100 miles from Equator to Pole. Divide this by 90 degrees for a rapport of almost 68 miles/degree of Latitude. >Now, if we add 500 miles between the continent of Brun and Davania, all the above distances on Brun should increase by 500 miles. So, we calculate the new distance, then using the 68 degrees per mile, find the new Latitude. This gives: >Place Distance 1 degree / 68 miles >Davania remains 0 Equator >Caerdwicca/Kladanovic: 1800 + 500 = 2300 miles 32 N (same) >Norvikk: 2950 + 500 = 3450 miles 50 N >Landfall: 3200 + 500 = 3700 miles 54 N >Oceansend: 3550 + 500 = 4050 miles 59 N >Alpha: 4000 + 500 = 4500 miles 66 N >Norwold north end: 4800 + 500 = 5300 miles 77 N >Hyborea north end: 5800 + 500 = 6300 miles 92 N >This allows us to keep the same climate for the Savage Coast and Old World (it's at 32 instead of 30, an insignificant difference), while bringing the areas of Norwold back down to respectable latitudes (a good 10 degrees, which is significant). >Now, Hyborea is a couple degrees over 90 (translating to about 120 miles). Explanation: it actually curves into the Northern Polar Opening and into the Darklands/Hollow World. This could be a land mass that crosses halfway through the opening. Hyborea is more than likely completely covered by glaciers and ice! >Alpha is just past the 60 N latitude, which suggests tundra. This can be somewhat explained away thanks to the presence of the immense Icereach Range. The high mountains peaks manage to curve the westerly continental winds (which are cold) to the north, forcing them up and around Norwold. Norwold therefore is slightly warmer than it's latitude would suggests. Alpha could therefore theoretically have the climate of 55N (or even 50N if you push it) instead of 66N, and the same for the rest of Norwold that is protected by the Icereach Range. [I'll admit it now, I'm not a climatologist or weather expert. If there are any out there, please let me know if this makes sense. From my research the past two weeks, it seems to be plausible.] >This still leaves the northern tip of Norwold (couple hundred miles, at the very least) as tundra. The so-called Foresthomes of the elves would more than likely be in an area that SHOULD BE tundra dominated; of course, maybe they used magic like the elves of Alfheim once did? Their conifer forest magic in tundra is close to the oak forest in steppes, hence the shadowelves came to them for help in saving the Canolbarth a few years ago. >Well, I hope this post clears up my last one, and I invite people to do the calculations over as well. But they seem to fit very well. So once more, I suggest we enlarge the world of Mystara to a circumference of 24,400 miles. The extra distance in the south can go between the south pole and Davania (assuming Davania isn't too big either; I didn't check), while for east-west, we can add the entra 5000 miles between the West Coast of Brun and East Coast of Skothar. >Adding all these distances to the sea can be explained off as previous voyages always had good winds allowing them to travel faster. >The only other solution is to remove 1200 miles of terrain so that Brun fits within the established northern hemisphere size. This would remove about 1/2 of Norwold. Because of this, I dislike this solution as it would mean changing a lot of pre-established maps of the area. Changes in the ocean are a lot easier to do. >Michael Roy >mroy@cyberus.ca >"busy, ha... you don't know the half of it!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:14:04 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. At 13.37 25/03/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >I had the idea of having the undead draining ability scores rather than levels. Some undead would drain con and others str. But this would make undead similar to other monsters (I don't remember the names offhand, but I know there're monsters who drain ability scores). One of the undead uniqueness is that they're the only ones who drain levels. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:01:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #194 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 73fd9405a81612bee88529fa1f4a0483 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:09:06 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft I was thinking on this matter yesterday. Instead of focusing on spells, monsters, and the like how about a few university backed studies. Studies on the Day of Dread, HollowWorld, the Radiance, what caused Alphatia to sink, the effect on Canolbarth Forest, nuemonics mineral, and so on. Also issues such as the recently emergent Shadow Elves, the meteor and subsequent Crater. IIRC there was mention in one of the PWAs about the discover of ancient Nithian ruins discovered. An increased interest in the legendary empire could occur. All studies could be put forward "in character" displaying both fact and fallacy. You could have conflicting studies from different scholars at the KS of M. Or better, work on a rivallry with the Glantrian University by having a Glantrian study of the same issue published that contradicts the Alphatian School.....er ah I mean Karameikan School. And lest we ommit some views from the old Mage's Guild. IMO the old Guild may have some harsh feelings toward the School in Krakatos. Any opportunity they can use to discredit the School would be seized upon. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:23:26 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft >If you read the Black Vessel Carefully you'll discover a mention of a man who died after leaving the Cursed area by living in Slagovich and was killed by his own legacy the Poison Breath Legacy. stories like this one would discouraged Mezrooth al yedom to leave the cursed zone. That is correct. The reason that the Savage Coast and Known World have such few ties is because many Savage Coast dwellers will die when their legacies release after being away from the cursed lands for some time. Mezrooth has so many legacies he would likely not survive. Plus his personality lends itself to research, not teaching. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:39 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. In a message dated 98-03-25 17:22:18 EST, Fabrizio writes: << At 13.37 25/03/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >I had the idea of having the undead draining ability scores rather than levels. Some undead would drain con and others str. But this would make undead similar to other monsters (I don't remember the names offhand, but I know there're monsters who drain ability scores). One of the undead uniqueness is that they're the only ones who drain levels. Ah, but some undead do drain other PC stats than XP. This can be seen in much of the vampire types of Ravenloft. Also have other means to kill the undead as well as a few differing characteristics. But then again, that is RL. Though I admit that stats and such for vampiric elves, dwarves, halflings are appealing. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:58:53 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>The only other solution is to remove 1200 miles of terrain so that Brun fits within the established northern hemisphere size. This would remove about 1/2 of Norwold. Because of this, I dislike this solution as it would mean changing a lot of pre-established maps of the area. Changes in the ocean are a lot easier to do. Hmmm... I don't have a really good map of Hyborea so this might not apply. However, most of TSR's maps are flat and have a scale of 24 miles per hex (or some such). Could the problem you are noticing have anything to do with Projective Distortion, that is, mapping a round world on a flat map? This would suggest that the closer to the north pole of Mystara one gets, the larger the hexes should be. So that hexes on the north of any map are larger than hexes on the south (in the northern hemisphere), to a very great extent as one approaches the north pole. What would be better is for TSR to sell a GLOBE of Mystara! 3;D> -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: >On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, MichaelX Harvey wrote: TTTThis had occurred to me also. In fact, the standard adventuring classes did not even really exist as a stereotype in medieval society (with the possible exception of thieves)... >>Not true. Soldiers and priests were both recognized as distinct social classes, and at least in certain places and times "witch" or "wizard" were well defined categories. >I meant that the "D&D" form of these classes is not historical. I think we are all agreed that D&D as it stands in no paragon of historical accuracy. However I still maintain that the standard class system would be more recognizable to a medieval mind than the non-combat class groupings you've come up with. But as I've also said, that's no reason you can't use them .. I just prefer to move in the direction of historical accuracy as opposed to away from it. >There were warriors, but they were knights who were born to their >position, and were probably seen as oppressors rather than heroes or adventurers; a peasant couldn't become a fighter and carry arms and earn rank or title. There were priests, but they did not fight or wield obvious magic. There were wizards and witches, but they were feared and throught to be eternally damned, not the scholarly scientific types found in D&D. So while there were exceptions, the stereotypes in D&D are modern, not medieval. A medieval game would look a lot more like C&S or Ars Magica. Some of what you say rings true, but I think now you're leaning too far in the opposite direction. Hereditary nobles were seen BOTH as oppressors and as heroes; part of what I've been trying to argue for is the appropriateness of class conflict for good gaming. No peasants couldn't earn rank or bear arms, but that's why in the original rules player characters are never peasants. Priests did not fight often, but there were whole orders of fighting priests (like the templars) who closely resembled clerics in some of their rules. And presumably from a modern scientific standpoint nobody wielded magic back then, but people at the time certainly thought they did, priests and wizards alike. And there are examples of wizard types who were both feared AND looked up to as paragons of science ... John Dee and Francis Bacon would make interesting magic user characters. Anyway yes there are other games that aim for better accuracy from the get-go but why can't we try to aim D&D that way too? >I could however see the D&D stereotypes fitting into the renaissance to a certain degree (and IMHO the social structure of the D&D world resembles the renaissance/colonial era more than it does the medieval.) what exactly is the social structure of the D&D world? that varies so much I'm not sure you can pin it down so easily. >>Anyway my system also >>included a general social class called "adventurer", meaning someone who switched professions a lot and had led an adventurous life, as opposed to someone who stayed in one career ... >Sounds like Warhammer. It had some cool ideas, but I thought there were too many classes, and don't really like the idea of changing classes frequently. I agree with the last part. I think most people should stay in one profession their whole lives, but adventurers particularly should be able to switch classes a lot more than they do in D&D (i don't buy the once a wizard, always a wizard thing). i think warhammer has some advantages over d&d, but not enought that i will buy the game :) >>>Domestics definitely do have an identifiable profession, it's just nnnot one that is part of the "public job market" >True, I did not mean to imply that they have no skills, just that it is difficult to pin them down in D&D terms. I tried to write one up, but could think of no abilities for an "adventuring mom" or any benefits from level advancement... maybe you have 10% chance per level to get the stains out of the laundry? :-) Actually if a campaign focused on everyday life at home, a domestic would have all sorts of cool abilities and could be fun to play. this probably applies to lots of types of characters. one thing you could do, if you want to reflect a kind of mystical early-medieval feel, would be to allow mothers and wives special magic powers of types geared to their role; there is precedent in germanic and celtic mythology for this. in finnish mythology, mothers are the most powerful characters of all. anyway i think if you really think about it (and get out of the "how would this be useful in a dungeon" mindset) you could come up with some really interesting stuff. reading feminist history of the middle ages might help too. >>>And nobles also have professional requirements ... they need to be eeeducated, well-mannered, sportsmanlike, etc. in order to get by ... these things take much time and training. >Yes I think Nobles need their own class -- the ideas you mention above are very good. >>>Abilities common to all Normals: >[snip] >>these are kind of interesting. but why not make this compatible with regular classes too? (fit everything into one system) >Originally I started out to rewrite D&D, and it looked a lot like what I posted above. It would work, but I decided that Steve Jackson already did it better and more thoroughly and I didn't care for his results. ;-) that's the problem with all such forays. i keep thinking that the only reason i keep playing d&D is that I know it so well, and I own all the books. the one thing i could never give up is the spells ... >>>Artisan >>>o May learn any thief skill by spending one skill slot on it >>artisans might be good at removing traps or picking locks, but why would they learn to backstab or hide in shadows? >I would not allow backstab, but then I don't consider that a skill as much as a lack of ethics... ;-) I don't know why they'd learn hiding, but I don't see any reason they couldn't if they wanted to. but why would they be any more likely than the average person? why wouldn't household servants or unskilled laborers have just as much access (or more) to these skills as an artisan? btw backstabbing is a skill, it represents precise knowledge of human anatomy of the type needed to ensure a quick kill. treacherous villainy is hard work, buddy .... >>>o Become a MASTER ARTISAN at 9th level. May create a new guild > [snip] III like this. In fact I think there should be more magic items around that are not made by traditional wizards. aren't there rules in the dwarf gaz about this? >I don't know, I don't have any of the gazetteers. But this would explain all the nameless +1 magic items floating around... >>>Laborer >>now this doesn't sound all that much different from a fighter. wearing armor is actually a fairly difficult thing ... there should be a little more difficulty involved here. >True. Laborer was a difficult one, similar in many ways to domestic. The main reason I gave the fighter abilities is because I couldn't think of anything more appropriate for a big guy who spends all day breaking rocks with a hammer. but not all laborers work in the quarries. i do see your reasoning here though .. perhaps this could extend to certain kinds of artisans too, like blacksmiths ... >>>Merchant (shrewd, communicative people) [was Teacher] Requisite: WIS >>shouldn't being a merchant require charisma, not wisdom? >To me, wisdom implies discernment (evaluating a fair price, detecting lies) and shrewdness (striking a good deal, managing your money). But I agree that CHA plays a big factor too. In a way, both merchants and clerics are salesmen, they just peddle different products. not all clerics are salesmen, only those who proselytize. Both can >benefit greatly from CHA, but do not require it. A crusty merchant without charisma is probably a low-profile speculator or banker rather than someone hawking wares on the street. these characters wouldn't necessarily be merchants in my system, they would be bureaucrats. but that's kind of fuzzy i'll admit. >>>o Wear armor as a cleric; may use any weapon >>wearing armor as a cleric is identical to wearing armor as a fighter. >I wanted to allow traveling merchants to have moderate fighting and adventuring ability. the darokin gaz already has a system for this. >>who grants merchants lands and title? they BUY them. nobody is going to grant these. >Good point. It'd be expensive too... historically it took a long time before middle class burghers were allowed to buy land, and even then there were all kinds of political resentments and it was often forbidden by law. >>>Domestics may be any of the above. >>>Nobles are probably Scholars or Merchants, depending on disposition. >>what does that mean? i don't like this disposition business. please explain. >Just that an outgoing, gregarious noble might use the Merchant class, while a shy intellectual one is a Scholar. (Just like in the standard system, some nobles are fighters, others are magic-users.) However you've convinced me that Nobles should have their own class. why would you make class dependent on personality? as I understand it, a profession would bring you the opportunity to learn a set of skills whether or not you were emotionally suited to the profession. If you wanted to do things this way, why not have "the shy class" and the "the outgoing class"? am i making any sense here? >>>o The Laborer archetype was hard to define, since they aren't very sssskilled and I'm not sure what abilities to give them. Perhaps laborer could be combined with artisan? >>the whole point of being a laborer is not being skilled at anything financially valuable. instead they should have skills like drinking, gambling, brawling, dancing, etc. ... >Hmm. You're right, but it doesn't have much play value. you don't think these skills have play value ???!!!?? in my experience some of the best gaming comes from role playing all of the non-combat activities of the PCs, which often involves lots of time spent in saloons, brothels, and other dens of iniquity ... >>>where did you derive these classes from? the categories seem > > somewhat arbitrary and incomplete. Where, for instance, do >>bureaucrats fit in? >Yep, they're arbitrary -- they were my first draft at doing "normals". By the time I'd posted them to the list I'd already changed my mind about some things, but thought you folks might be interested in seeing them anyway. >I'm not sure whether I'd keep laborers or just replace them with 0-level fighters, since if you have no skills there no point in advancing in levels. I can't really picture a person who spends their whole life without learning ANYTHING. even as a galley slave you would still develop some abilities with time and experience. even prisoners learn handicrafts. As soon as you've learned anything worthwhile yyou're in a different class. Same with domestics -- there's not much point in assigning stats since they'll never adventure and don't have the appropriate skills anyway. it depends what kind of adventure you want to run. how about a whole game centering upon a tiny woodland fairie who is stealing muffins from the pantry? you just need to expand your definition of worthwhile. >I'd probably add Nobles; bureaucrats could be low-level "nobles", >while real nobles (born into their position) would probably start at name level and go up from there. huh? why the heck would you give some teenager who happens to have a baron for a dad the abilities of a ninth level character? this makes no sense. >Also I'd probably add a few special classes for the fringe elements of society, like woodsmen and merchant-explorers. However these would be adventuring classes, not normals, and would have combat skills and special abilities. >Mike >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. i'm not really certain what is served by the normal-adventurer distinction. can you explain this? peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #194 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, March 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 195 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Other spells in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Michael, Fabrizio, and whoever else: Why are we going over this again? I understand perfectly the logic being presented below, but I said already that this problem ought to be explained by looking at the polar maps from the Hollow World Boxed Set. (Michael, do you have a copy of this?) We don't need to move Hyborea into the "darklands", it's ALREADY THERE! part of the confusion seems to result from a misunderstanding of how thick the crust of Mystara really is ... there is a substantial amount of terrain that is more or less *sideways* to the regular surfaces as it curves into the HW. Since those maps present a total, global, scale map of the planet, there should not need to be any size revisions once they are consulted. One possibility that occurs to me is that the scale of norwold is off because someone forgot about mercator projection when they made the hex maps; this is something that will be mathematically more difficult to solve than simply adding water. have you ever looked at how tiny greenland is comparatively on a real globe as compared to a flat map? peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Another message from Micheal Roy. I tried to send it earlier but it didn't show up on the list, sorry if you see this twice. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>It seems that my previous post about the size of Mystara was somewhat misinterpreted. Although I mentioned Hyborea was at 110 degrees N in Latitude, I am well aware that 110N does NOT EXIST: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. That was the message I was trying to relay in the first place. >>So, I'll start over, hopefully being a bit more clear. >>The Almanac (PWAs) state that Mystara has a circumference of 19,400 miles at the equator. Now, a pole to pole circumference is technically smaller since the poles are flatter than the equator, yet I will ignore this minor detail for the sake of this argument. In otherwords, I'm assuming a 19,400 miles circumference for a north to south circle as well. BBBy dividing the circumference by 4, we get the distance for a quarter of the circle; that is, from the equator to a pole. In this case, 19,400 miles/4 = 4850 miles fro Equator to North Pole. Since there is 90 degrees of Latitude from equator to pole, we divide 4850 miles by 90 degrees and obtain approximately 53 miles per degree of Latitude. >>The equator passes just south of the Jungle Coast (on Davania), within the Meghala Kimata Plains and Meghala Amosses Desert. AAApproximately 1600 miles north of the equator, which is about the distance of Ceardwicca of the Isle Of Dawn, Kladanovic of the Serpent Peninsula, and just off the coast of the Savage Coast, we have the 30N latitude (1600 miles divided by 53 degrees per mile gives about 30 degrees N). This, so far, works well with what is given in the Almanac Maps (specifically, AC 1011 map). >>Now, 60N should be another 1600 miles north of the 30N. At that distance is the location of Landfall (aprox. 3200 miles N.). Landfall should therefore be situated at the 60N Latitude. OOOther locations (distances rounded off): NNNorvikk 2950 miles N, or 55N >>Oceansend 3550 miles N, or 67N >>Alpha 4000 miles N, or 75N >>Here on Earth, along the west coast of North America, 60N indicates the start of the tundra. That would mean that ALL of Norwold should be a tundra according to what they've given. >>Add another 1600 miles to Landfall, for a total of 4800 miles, which lands exactly at the northern limits of the Norwold landmass (just before Frosthaven) and that should be the MATHEMATICAL location on 90N, or, in otherwords, the North Pole. This is the really obvious error to the size of Mystara! >>As you can plainly see, this is NOT the location of the North Pole. The distance of northern edge of Hyborea (about 5800 miles N of the equator), using the same 53 miles per degree, gives Hyborea a location of 110 degrees N. This, of course, translates into 70N on the other side of the world. This means that Hyborea is overlapping the continent of Skothar. As you can see, this is completely off from ALL MAPS OF MYSTARA. It just cannot be. >>BEST POSSIBLE SOLUTION. >>Augment the circumference of Mystara to 24,400 miles. By dividing this distance by 4, we obtain 6100 miles from Equator to Pole. Divide this by 90 degrees for a rapport of almost 68 miles/degree of Latitude. >>Now, if we add 500 miles between the continent of Brun and Davania, all the above distances on Brun should increase by 500 miles. So, we calculate the new distance, then using the 68 degrees per mile, find the new Latitude. This gives: >>Place Distance 1 degree / 68 >miles >>Davania remains 0 Equator >>Caerdwicca/Kladanovic: 1800 + 500 = 2300 miles 32 N (same) >>Norvikk: 2950 + 500 = 3450 miles 50 N >>Landfall: 3200 + 500 = 3700 miles 54 N >>Oceansend: 3550 + 500 = 4050 miles 59 N >>Alpha: 4000 + 500 = 4500 miles 66 N >>Norwold north end: 4800 + 500 = 5300 miles 77 N >>Hyborea north end: 5800 + 500 = 6300 miles 92 N >>This allows us to keep the same climate for the Savage Coast and Old World (it's at 32 instead of 30, an insignificant difference), while bringing the areas of Norwold back down to respectable latitudes (a good 10 degrees, which is significant). >>Now, Hyborea is a couple degrees over 90 (translating to about 120 miles). Explanation: it actually curves into the Northern Polar Opening and into the Darklands/Hollow World. This could be a land mass that crosses halfway through the opening. Hyborea is more than likely completely covered by glaciers and ice! >>Alpha is just past the 60 N latitude, which suggests tundra. This can be somewhat explained away thanks to the presence of the immense Icereach Range. The high mountains peaks manage to curve the westerly continental winds (which are cold) to the north, forcing them up and around Norwold. Norwold therefore is slightly warmer than it's latitude would suggests. Alpha could therefore theoretically have the climate of 55N (or even 50N if you push it) instead of 66N, and the same for the rest of Norwold that is protected by the Icereach Range. [I'll admit it now, I'm not a climatologist or weather expert. If there are any out there, please let me know if this makes sense. From my research the past two weeks, it seems to be plausible.] >>This still leaves the northern tip of Norwold (couple hundred miles, at the very least) as tundra. The so-called Foresthomes of the elves would more than likely be in an area that SHOULD BE tundra dominated; of course, maybe they used magic like the elves of Alfheim once did? Their conifer forest magic in tundra is close to the oak forest in steppes, hence the shadowelves came to them for help in saving the Canolbarth a few years ago. >>Well, I hope this post clears up my last one, and I invite people to do the calculations over as well. But they seem to fit very well. So once more, I suggest we enlarge the world of Mystara to a circumference of 24,400 miles. The extra distance in the south can go between the south pole and Davania (assuming Davania isn't too big either; I didn't check), while for east-west, we can add the entra 5000 miles between the West Coast of Brun and East Coast of Skothar. >>Adding all these distances to the sea can be explained off as previous voyages always had good winds allowing them to travel faster. >>The only other solution is to remove 1200 miles of terrain so that Brun fits within the established northern hemisphere size. This would remove about 1/2 of Norwold. Because of this, I dislike this solution as it would mean changing a lot of pre-established maps of the area. Changes in the ocean are a lot easier to do. >>Michael Roy >>mroy@cyberus.ca >>"busy, ha... you don't know the half of it!" >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:42:06 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Another message from Micheal Roy. I tried to send it earlier but it didn't show up on the list, sorry if you see this twice. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>It seems that my previous post about the size of Mystara was somewhat misinterpreted. Although I mentioned Hyborea was at 110 degrees N in Latitude, I am well aware that 110N does NOT EXIST: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. That was the message I was trying to relay in the first place. >>So, I'll start over, hopefully being a bit more clear. >>The Almanac (PWAs) state that Mystara has a circumference of 19,400 miles at the equator. Now, a pole to pole circumference is technically smaller since the poles are flatter than the equator, yet I will ignore this minor detail for the sake of this argument. In otherwords, I'm assuming a 19,400 miles circumference for a north to south circle as well. Ok, the problem is stated much more clearly now. I would say that the best solution is to NOT assume that the north to south circle circumference is 19,400 miles. Make that 24,400 miles, but keep the 19,400 miles circumference for the equator. The only thing this changes is the shape of the planet. It now looks more elliptical, like an egg rather than a sphere. The world-shield provides the gravity which hold Mystara together, so it can hold the planet in that shape. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:04:15 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Dave Keyser wrote: >Ok, the problem is stated much more clearly now. I would say that the best solution is to NOT assume that the north to south circle circumference is 19,400 miles. Make that 24,400 miles, but keep the 19,400 miles circumference for the equator. >The only thing this changes is the shape of the planet. It now looks more elliptical, like an egg rather than a sphere. The world-shield provides the gravity which hold Mystara together, so it can hold the planet in that shape. Well, in a fantasy sort of way that might work. But if you're willing to throw aside physics, why concern yourself with a math problem in the first place? 3;)> -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:15:06 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft In a message dated 98-03-25 17:36:46 EST, you write: << If you read the Black Vessel Carefully you'll discover a mention of a mman who died after leaving the Cursed area by living in Slagovich and was killed by his own legacy the Poison Breath Legacy. stories like this one would discouraged Mezrooth al yedom to leave the cursed zone. That is correct. The reason that the Savage Coast and Known World have such few ties is because many Savage Coast dwellers will die when their legacies release after being away from the cursed lands for some time. Mezrooth has so many legacies he would likely not survive. Plus his personality lends itself to research, not teaching. Well, you know, both of these are good valid points, but last I checked, this was supposed to be a game about imagination. I have a real hard time saying "that cant happen" & "this wouldnt happen" in a place that is supposed to be fantasy. Sure, its possible to go too far, but how do we know where "too far" lies until we stretch the limits a little bit. First, I'm quite sure there have been a few folks who have left the Cursed areas and lived to tell the tale. I'm not saying it was easy, I'm not saying that the majority who have tried have bit the proverbial dust, but I 'm sure its not beyond the realm of "fantasy-reality" to say its happened. And for somebody as knowledgable about the Curse and the Legacies as Mazrooth is, I'm sure he would probably stand a better chance than your average joe trying to leave the Cursed Lands. I'm sure he can come up with some "protection". Do I know what it is? No, but I dont have to know....Mazrooth does, and I'm sure its a heavily guarded secret. ;) Secondly...I'm sure research is Mazrooth's bag....no doubt about it, he's a researchin' machine! But If you take a look at a lot of college campuses today, alot of the Professors are more involved in research than teaching classes. So again....Mazrooth at a College of Wizardry isnt too far out of the bounds of "fantasy-reality" that Id just have to lob heavy objects at somebody and brand them Mystara Heritcs!!!! It could make for a lot of intresting role-playing possibilities if you ask me. Just my two cents worth.... Al *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:32:43 EST From: Dleggend Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Weather of Mystara In a message dated 98-03-25 16:36:28 EST, you write: << No, Ylaraum is ringed by mountains and the rule gods at TSR said that Ylaruam has portal open to the plane of Fire which is to explain it's constant desert heat. it's mountains serves as a natural barrier by the immortal to keep the heat from moving into the other country Alfheim Gaz states that the reason Ylaruam is a desert because to the effects of the elf magic. TSR probably said it has a portal to the plane of fire to cover up their micro climate blunder. But I guess the two had a hand in making it a desert. Dleggend@aol.com Enter Dleggend's Page http://members.aol.com/dleggend/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:51:10 +0000 From: "Mike Harvey" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) >I think we are all agreed that D&D as it stands in no paragon of historical accuracy. However I still maintain that the standard class system would be more recognizable to a medieval mind than the non-combat class groupings you've come up with. Okay, I agree. >Anyway yes there are other games that aim for better accuracy from the get-go but why can't we try to aim D&D that way too? I've played more accurate games and decided I didn't like them. In particular I have come to dislike "realistic" combat and magical systems, and come to view character classes as more desirable than skill systems. Realistic social order is okay since it doesn't interest me all that much, although I prefer a heroic setting to a gritty realistic one. I don't mean that realism is bad, or that you shouldn't seek it yourself, but the reason I returned to D&D was to escape the tyranny of perfectionism in vain pursuit of realism. >what exactly is the social structure of the D&D world? that varies so much I'm not sure you can pin it down so easily. True. I just mean that many D&D campaigns seem to assume a relatively decent standard of living, currency-based economy, social mobility, freedom to keep and bear arms, a large middle class, free farmers rather than peasants. They resemble the early American frontier in many ways, and I find it interesting to apply modern economics and stuff to a fantasy setting. >that's the problem with all such forays. i keep thinking that the only reason i keep playing d&D is that I know it so well, and I own all the books. the one thing i could never give up is the spells ... I know what you mean. [thief skills] >but why would they be any more likely than the average person? why wouldn't household servants or unskilled laborers have just as much access (or more) to these skills as an artisan? No reason, except to make an interesting class. There is also no reason a wizard couldn't swing a sword, or that a fighter couldn't learn to pick locks, or that a thief couldn't use a wand if he knows the command word. Merely genre conventions, game balance, and avoiding overlap. (Not saying that is good or bad, just that's the way D&D generally does things). >btw backstabbing is a skill, it represents precise knowledge of human anatomy of the type needed to ensure a quick kill. treacherous villainy is hard work, buddy .... Hmm, I suppose so, though I never considered thieves to have much formal training. But it makes sense, especially with guilds of thieves and assassins in every town. >>I wanted to allow traveling merchants to have moderate fighting and adventuring ability. >the darokin gaz already has a system for this. BUT I don't have that gaz (and may never have the chance to get one), which is one thing that got me started on all this: rolling my own. >why would you make class dependent on personality? as I understand it, a profession would bring you the opportunity to learn a set of skills whether or not you were emotionally suited to the profession. If you wanted to do things this way, why not have "the shy class" and the "the outgoing class"? am i making any sense here? Yes you are. I admit that basing profession on personality (or changing professions) is kind of a modern approach to things.. and I did think about classes for shy and outgoing people, or even based on the four medieval humours. [drinking, gambling, etc] >you don't think these skills have play value ???!!!?? Sure, but they are hard to define in game mechanical terms, and usually just get roleplayed. You could say that about most mundane skills, for that matter. But if you're just going to roleplay it, why bother having a character class? Any "Normal Human" can drink and gamble to his heart's content without having a character class. >it depends what kind of adventure you want to run. how about a whole game centering upon a tiny woodland fairie who is stealing muffins from the pantry? you just need to expand your definition of worthwhile. (grin) Sound like a good game to run in FUDGE... >huh? why the heck would you give some teenager who happens to have a Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:33:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #195 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 114ff1bc9b516ab839e17ed9449842af >baron for a dad the abilities of a ninth level character? this makes no sense. I am thinking that levels for a Noble mostly equate to rank and privilege. The baron's son may only be a teenager, but he outranks the town mayor and all his father's knights. He probably shouldn't have more skill slots (though he did have an expensive private education). It all depends on how you define the class. For example: 1st level, minor member of nobility 3rd level, knight 5th level, marquis 7th level, baron 9th level, duke 11th level, grand duke etc. >i'm not really certain what is served by the normal-adventurer distinction. can you explain this? Unlike normals, adventurers deal with danger routinely, and combat/survival abilities are part of their job description. So adventurers' combat ability increases automatically with level (the standard D&D method) while normals always have THAC0 20, HD<=1 (unless they traded skills to improve it). Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:07:31 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Other spells in Mystara In a message dated 98-03-24 19:16:09 EST, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: >I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the Minrothad gazetteer yet; there's a bbunch of new spells there, and they are MU spells. They're restricted to the Merchant-Princes of Minrothad, but I'm sure an enterprising wizard can either research them on his own or steal them outright (good luck with that one). I think there is also a mention that some of these spells are ultimately of Alphatian origin, which would provide an alternate and less secretive source for learning them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:08:21 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-25 14:26:32 EST, MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com writes: >I tried to write one up, >but could think of no abilities for an "adventuring mom" or any benefits from level advancement... maybe you have 10% chance per level to get the stains out of the laundry? :-) Didn't the April 1997 issue of Dragon magazine provide a "Mother" class as one of its parodies? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:59:42 EST From: LandoTW Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts OK.....yet another question.... The Brotherhood of Order aka The Lawful Brotherhood; When did they first arrive on the Savage Coast and begin exploring? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:05:53 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >At 13.37 25/03/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: >>I had the idea of having the undead draining ability scores rather than levels. Some undead would drain con and others str. >But this would make undead similar to other monsters (I don't remember the names offhand, but I know there're monsters who drain ability scores). One of the undead uniqueness is that they're the only ones who drain levels. Personally, I don't see that as a problem. I think the uniqueness of undead should lay on a different level than that of Game Mechanics. Also, I think the level drain causes a lot of problems. You lose hit points, skills/proficiencies, attacks. Calculating all that in the midst of battle is an unneccesary delay IMO. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes | "Twas brillig and the slithy toves Email: hoc@nvg.ntnu.no | Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: or hoc@nuts.edu | All mimsy were the borogoves, http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc | And the mome raths outgrabe."-Lewis Caroll *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:40:16 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >>A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. >>What do you guys think? >I tried ot upload it with my post. oops! view it at: >http://cwspot.com/Mystara/Tinman/ergoth3.gif I think that Greyhawk works and is a cool Idea but I dont know about Faerun. I have only played in the Realms a couple times. I think it is way to north. Too cold for how the world was placed. What about its size? Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:09:33 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft I hope I'm doing this right. I had to switch from the daily posts to the digest after my ISP needed to be burped and dumped 600+ messages. Next time I'll try to mention the names of the original posters I'm replying to. >If you read the Black Vessel Carefully you'll discover a mention of a man who died after leaving the Cursed area by living in Slagovich and was killed by his own legacy the Poison Breath Legacy. stories like this one would discouraged Mezrooth al yedom to leave the cursed zone. There are always exceptions to the rule though. I don't think we should shoot down the idea until we've at least seen it. Never know, it might be the most invented one ever. >I was thinking on this matter yesterday. Instead of focusing on spells, monsters, and the like how about a few university backed studies. Studies on the Day of Dread, HollowWorld, the Radiance, what caused Alphatia to sink, the >effect on Canolbarth Forest, nuemonics mineral, and so on. Also issues such as >the recently emergent Shadow Elves, the meteor and subsequent Crater. IIRC there was mention in one of the PWAs about the discover of ancient Nithian ruins discovered. An increased interest in the legendary empire could occur. Research should always be a strong part of any mage school. I think these ideas would work very well. The first submission I posted wasn't a teacher but more of someone sharing their knowledge. Researcher would fill the same type role also, IMO. >All studies could be put forward "in character" displaying both fact and fallacy. You could have conflicting studies from different scholars at the KS of M. Or better, work on a rivallry with the Glantrian University by having a Glantrian study of the same issue published that contradicts the Alphatian School.....er ah I mean Karameikan School. And lest we ommit some views from the old Mage's Guild. IMO the old Guild may have some harsh feelings toward the School in Krakatos. Any opportunity they can use to discredit the School would be seized upon. Studies in character is a wonderful idea! One instructor I'm currently working on is taking those harsh feelings the Magician's Guild may hold to heart. Just to give a taste of his feelings... he believes Terari killed Teldon in order to unsurp the master position at the school. Of course, this is because he isn't who he seems to be. Oh, the school is Alphatian. And Ylaruam, Thyatian, Alfhiem, Darokin, etc. It's a reflect of the country of Karameikos. A melting pot of mages much the way Karameikos is a melting pot of nations. In my opion, of course. >That is correct. The reason that the Savage Coast and Known World have such few ties is because many Savage Coast dwellers will die when their legacies release after being away from the cursed lands for some time. Mezrooth has so many legacies he would likely not survive. Plus his personality lends itself to research, not teaching. As I stated before, the possibility is always open and the school is what we make it. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:10:56 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >But this would make undead similar to other monsters (I don't remember the names offhand, but I know there're monsters who drain ability scores). One of the undead uniqueness is that they're the only ones who drain levels. One thing that bothers me, especially about vampires, is why is the draining of blood not enough. Granted wraiths can feed on the life energies but D&D/AD&D vampires are completely a different matter compared to the legendary source. At least the legends I enjoy. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:11:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) why you guys baggin' on moms so hard? moms rock! peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-25 14:26:32 EST, MichaelX_Harvey@ccm.jf.intel.com writes: >>I tried to write one up, >>but could think of no abilities for an "adventuring mom" or any benefits from level advancement... maybe you have 10% chance per level to get the stains out of the laundry? :-) >Didn't the April 1997 issue of Dragon magazine provide a "Mother" class as one of its parodies? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Mike Harvey wrote: >>Anyway yes there are other games that aim for better accuracy from the get-go but why can't we try to aim D&D that way too? >I've played more accurate games and decided I didn't like them. In particular I have come to dislike "realistic" combat and magical systems, and come to view character classes as more desirable than skill systems. Realistic social order is okay since it doesn't interest me all that much, although I prefer a heroic setting to a gritty realistic one. >I don't mean that realism is bad, or that you shouldn't seek it yourself, but the reason I returned to D&D was to escape the tyranny of perfectionism in vain pursuit of realism. I understand your logic completely. I have gone back and forth on that swing a couple of times. Right now I'm looking for ways to do unconventional, a-heroic gaming in a fairly complex medieval society, without getting obsessive about rules detail (i used to play rolemaster ... does that give you some insight into my shattered psyche?) ... but as you say there are tradeoffs. sorry for jumping on you about the realism factor; i've been trying to say all along that there is room for difference but i've also been arguing for my system just out of ornery competitiveness. i guess in the end it is really a matter of preference. >>what exactly is the social structure of the D&D world? that varies so much I'm not sure you can pin it down so easily. >True. I just mean that many D&D campaigns seem to assume a relatively decent standard of living, currency-based economy, social mobility, freedom to keep and bear arms, a large middle class, free farmers rather than peasants. They resemble the early American frontier in many ways, and I find it interesting to apply modern economics and stuff to a fantasy setting. you put your point well. i've thought about the old west thing before too ... but what's interesting about that is the more i learn about 19th century history the more i realize even the old west wasn't like that ... the majority of the population would have been terrorized mexican farmers and indian villagers (at least in the southwest) and later on, immigrant laborers (mostly chinese and irish) who were being worked to death on the railroads by ultrapowerful capitalists. the "adventurer" types (gunslingers and whatnot) would mostly have been either hired muscle for industrial capitalism or payroll thieves. it probably would be even MORE lawless than an average D&D game, and pretty brutal too. but there i go being anti-romantic again. it all depends how you want to relate your fiction to your history (some would say they are the same thing). >[thief skills] >>but why would they be any more likely than the average person? why wouldn't household servants or unskilled laborers have just as much access (or more) to these skills as an artisan? >No reason, except to make an interesting class. There is also no reason a wizard couldn't swing a sword, or that a fighter couldn't learn to pick locks, or that a thief couldn't use a wand if he knows the command word. Merely genre conventions, game balance, and avoiding overlap. (Not saying that is good or bad, just that's the way D&D generally does things). i guess i always wanted more overlap, because it makes it harder to tell what abilities your enemies have (thus heightening fear, which usually makes the game better, if it doesn't induce the players to attack the DM instead). >>btw backstabbing is a skill, it represents precise knowledge of human anatomy of the type needed to ensure a quick kill. treacherous villainy is hard work, buddy .... >Hmm, I suppose so, though I never considered thieves to have much formal training. But it makes sense, especially with guilds of thieves and assassins in every town. yup. there's an official rule somewhere that explains it that way. >>>I wanted to allow traveling merchants to have moderate fighting and adventuring ability. >>the darokin gaz already has a system for this. >BUT I don't have that gaz (and may never have the chance to get one), which is one thing that got me started on all this: rolling my own. fair enough. maybe i will send you a copy of the basics in a month or so when i have the free time ... remind me. >>why would you make class dependent on personality? as I understand it, a profession would bring you the opportunity to learn a set of skills whether or not you were emotionally suited to the profession. If you wanted to do things this way, why not have "the shy class" and the "the outgoing class"? am i making any sense here? >Yes you are. I admit that basing profession on personality (or changing professions) is kind of a modern approach to things.. and I did think about classes for shy and outgoing people, or even based on the four medieval humours. hey i like that! how about a whole magic system based on people's humours? you could be naturally predisposed to fiery or melancholic or whatever types of magic ... >[drinking, gambling, etc] >>you don't think these skills have play value ???!!!?? >Sure, but they are hard to define in game mechanical terms, and usually just get roleplayed. You could say that about most mundane skills, for that matter. But if you're just going to roleplay it, why bother having a character class? Any "Normal Human" can drink and gamble to his heart's content without having a character class. most of the rules i have seen for this sort of thing give bonuses to the chances of winning at cards, getting away with cheating, etc. ... it can provide rules for those times when players want to earn their living without working for it without just role playing it out (though of course you can do both - i once played in a game where we were roleplaying a card game with actual cards, and everybody at the table was cheating, and we had to roll to see if we got away with hiding the cards (even as we were roleplaying the action with real cards) and as for drinking, yes any normal human can drink, but whether he can still aim his wand of fireballs well enough to take down a rampaging band of orcs after he's downed two gallons of ale is another matter ... it all depends how you like to handle these things. there's rules for all sorts of things that perhaps "ought" to be left up to roleplaying ... for instance reaction rolls and various kinds of social interaction (bribery, lying, seduction, etc.) >>it depends what kind of adventure you want to run. how about a whole game centering upon a tiny woodland fairie who is stealing muffins from the pantry? you just need to expand your definition of worthwhile. >(grin) Sound like a good game to run in FUDGE... what's fudge again? >>huh? why the heck would you give some teenager who happens to have a baron for a dad the abilities of a ninth level character? this makes no sense. >I am thinking that levels for a Noble mostly equate to rank and privilege. The baron's son may only be a teenager, but he outranks the town mayor and all his father's knights. He probably shouldn't have more skill slots (though he did have an expensive private education). It all depends on how you define the class. For example: >1st level, minor member of nobility >3rd level, knight >5th level, marquis >7th level, baron >9th level, duke >11th level, grand duke >etc. now you're saying that level isn't tied to experience AT ALL, but just reflects social priviledge? that seems to throw away the whole original concept. Would a 20 year old Duke in your system get more hit points than a battle-hardened 40 year old knight? would he have better chances to hit? better saving throws? what logic can there be to doing this? >>i'm not really certain what is served by the normal-adventurer > > distinction. can you explain this? >Unlike normals, adventurers deal with danger routinely, and combat/survival abilities are part of their job description. So adventurers' combat ability increases automatically with level (the standard D&D method) while normals always have THAC0 20, HD<=1 (unless they traded skills to improve it). ah, now i see what you're doing a little better. so what does increase with level, just skills? then it certainly ought to go with age and experience, not rank (although perhaps an expensive education might help a little). anyway there are still grey areas ... such as professional soldiers or constables (who have to deal with danger semi-routinely, and are trained for it, but don't live by it everyday like adventurers). anyway that's all the thoughts i have for now. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #195 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:52:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #196 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 4a7eca514643247a3237975317b2a991 mystara-digest Friday, March 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 196 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Blizzard Pass [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale Re: [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale [MYSTARA] - The Nahmeh Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Fw: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim dream Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... Re: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim dream ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:04:37 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in WotI). Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? Ideas, opinions? - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:51:58 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. At 16.05 26/03/98 +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: OOn Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >>But this would make undead similar to other monsters (I don't remember the names offhand, but I know there're monsters who drain ability scores). One of the undead uniqueness is that they're the only ones who drain levels. >Personally, I don't see that as a problem. I think the uniqueness of undead should lay on a different level than that of Game Mechanics. It's not just a question of Game Mechanics. It's the basic difference between some undead, who drain levels, and other monsters who drains abilities (e.g. a Shadow drains Strenght). IMO that's not just Game Mechanics. >Also, I think the level drain causes a lot of problems. You lose hit points, skills/proficiencies, attacks. Calculating all that in the midst of battle is an unneccesary delay IMO. In D&D thac0, skills, weapon mastery slots and ST don't change each level, so you don't need to calculate them all each time you're hit by an level draining undead. Just my opinion. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:26:45 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian In a message dated 98-03-26 17:41:56 EST, Fabrizio writes: << Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in WotI). Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? Ideas, opinions? >> IMO the old Alphatians were represented by all of the elements and perhaps a few other types such as necromancy and such. I would say that the Air and Fire sects were probably the most powerful. Whether the other sects allied with either during the war is debateable. However, it is feasible. IIRC the Fire Mages travelled to Mystara. IMO there were probably a few hanger ons and allies too. DotE says something on the Air Mages branching off into different fields after Landfall. Probably as a result of the Alphatians adapting their magic to Mystara. Or it could be a result of Alphatia's tendency for chatic behavior. There are also the refugees that Razud (?) helped to flee the homeworld before it blew. Perhaps these were other sects. There is also mention of Alphatians still in the old Alphatian Plane living on planetoids and such. Who knows what schools they follow. Oh those kooky Alphatians. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:00:50 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Alex said: >IMO the old Alphatians were represented by all of the elements and perhaps a few other types such as necromancy and such. I would say that the Air and Fire sects were probably the most powerful. Whether the other sects allied with either during the war is debateable. However, it is feasible. >IIRC the Fire Mages travelled to Mystara. Yup - they're the Glantirans. >IMO there were probably a few hanger ons and allies too. DotE says something on the Air Mages branching off into different fields after Landfall. Probably as a result of the Alphatians adapting their magic to Mystara. Or it could be a result of Alphatia's tendency for chatic behavior. Jeff Daly, in his writeups of Haven and Bettelyn, had reclusive groups of geomancers living in relative isolation, where they could practice their crafts undisturbed. I suggest you check it out sometime. >There are also the refugees that Razud (?) helped to flee the homeworld before it blew. Perhaps these were other sects. >There is also mention of Alphatians still in the old Alphatian Plane living on planetoids and such. Who knows what schools they follow. >Oh those kooky Alphatians. :) Aye, they be weird ones all right! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:53:40 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian In a message dated 98-03-26 18:43:01 EST, you write: << There is also mention of Alphatians still in the old Alphatian Plane living on planetoids and such. Who knows what schools they follow. >> IIRC there are still followers of both Flame and Air still living in that region (M1). - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:12:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? I've wondered the same, and basically made the same ruling for Water Wizards as you- ie, many of them went to Minrothad. As for Earth wizards, who knows? Perhaps they are underground. Citadel, the mountain city, might be a creation of Earth Wizards. For my part, I basically use a variation of the "magic" system presented in C.S. Friedman's _Coldfire Trilogy_. Ie, there are various natural energies that are manipulated- Earth, Air, Water, Fire, and Dark energies (or Fae, as they are called in the books- note that Air Fae don't exist in the trilogy, though there is mention of Solar Fae once.) Anyway, most magic users and clerics are just general manipulators of the various Fae, but there are specialists in each field who have more ability with one than the others. I'll probably do a complete workup one of these days when I find the time. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:20:20 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Funny you should mention this. I do have a small sect of earth wizards in the Bettelyn write-up that I am doing. Not too much longer I think! At 03:04 PM 3/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in WotI). >Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? >Ideas, opinions? >-------------- >Fabrizio Paoli >brizio@lunet.it >Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 -------------- >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:52:58 EST From: Magesmiley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. In a message dated 98-03-26 12:33:14 EST, you write: << One thing that bothers me, especially about vampires, is why is the draining of blood not enough. Granted wraiths can feed on the life energies but D&D/AD&D vampires are completely a different matter compared to the legendary source. At least the legends I enjoy >> Take a look at the Nosferatu. They are more like the "legendary" source you refer to. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:54:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Hey Jeff and everybody else, Reading this bit about Geomancers reminded me of something I had almost forgotten about from the very old days of my original Mystara campaign (back when I was in junior high school, and was just beginning to collect Mystara stuff during its heyday in the early 80's) ... I had a mysterious Wizard (who I now figure was almost certainly an Alphatian Geomancer) named Zorkhel, who invaded the lands of the Mehirgudi tribe of humans (who I have now placed on the Isle of Dawn, inland from the Ekto-Trikelios region) with an army of Orcs and undead and began casting huge earthmoving spells to alter the actual contours of the land. At the time, I was doing this because I had just gotten the Companion set, with its map of the Isle of Dawn (or was that master set?) and was readjusting maps i had already come up with to fit into TSR's new product (story of my life). Anyway after years of reworking this, I now work from this basic idea: My old campaign begins right about where the latest almanacs leave off. in about 1013 or so this Zorkhel would have quietly slipped into the region of the Great Escarpment with a retinue of geomancers and hired orc mercenaries (as well as refugee alphatian troops, etc.) and begun digging a large network of tunnels as a base, then subjeugating the local human population (with his half-orc war chief lieutenant, Gahardek). His eventual aim is to seize control of the whole Isle, especially the gates to the elemental plane of earth in the plateau southeast of Kendach (which is inhabited by Erdeens and Xorns, among other critters). with the air-alphatians mostly gone, he figures that earth-based wizards can begin to rise in power. there is something very earth-oriented about the IoD, so he has chosen this as his power base. the effects of his high level spells may include actually raising up small ranges of hills or eventually causing the explosions of volcanos, etc. - with control of the earth-gate he could do even more. thankfully the thyatins and other groups are keeping him from that.he eventually wants to raise up the land so that the seas recede and the IoD reconnects with Brun near Helskir, cutting off sea traffic through the north channel. anyway i don't have more than this figured out ... except that he should be killed off around 1033 or so by another alphatian expatriate in a duel. after that his chieftans would fall to bickering amongst themselves. please let me know what you think about this ... criticism is good because it spurs creativity. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >Funny you should mention this. I do have a small sect of earth wizards in the Bettelyn write-up that I am doing. Not too much longer I think! >At 03:04 PM 3/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in WotI). >>Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? >>Ideas, opinions? >>-------------- >>Fabrizio Paoli >>brizio@lunet.it >>Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 -------------- >>*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:58:00 GMT From: cpb@gatewest.net (Chris Paul Billows) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blizzard Pass On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:24:13 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings! >I recieved some older modules today (B1, B4, 4, CM2, CM4, MSOLO1) that helps me understand some of the recent topics on the list but I was wondering if anyone knows how to reveal the invisible entries in the M1 Blizzard Pass module. It's almost impossible for these to be found with the pen and I haven't found one yet. Maybe another method to use to reveal this or a transcript of the hidden parts? >_____________________________________ >This has been a Galwylin© Production Just updating the Perservation Project... what is the third module you have? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:52:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #196 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 4a7eca514643247a3237975317b2a991 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:42:31 -0800 From: Lysander@nycnet.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale Hello fellow Mystarans, Lysander the Lurker here. I have run across 5 copies of Wrath of the Immortals, and a couple of Savage Baronies, all still shrink-wrapped. I would like to know if anyone out there would be interested in one for $10 plus shipping? Please email me privately as I'm way behind in my Mystara-digest reading, and so as not to spam the list with private sales. Also have lots of the Night Trilogy (Hollow World modules) as well as Hollow World Gazetteers (Azca, Milenien Empire, Nithia) and a few P W Almanacs, all unused, most still wrapped. All going for half cover price. Please let me know if anyone's interested in what I've got, and I'll put together a list. Thanks, all! lysander@nycnet.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:40:01 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale Lysander@nycnet.com wrote: >Also have lots of the Night Trilogy (Hollow World modules) as well as Hollow World Gazetteers (Azca, Milenien Empire, Nithia) and a few P W Almanacs, all unused, most still wrapped. All going for half cover price. Please let me know if anyone's interested in what I've got, and I'll put together a list. I'd be interested in one each of the HW gazateers, if you still have any left. - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! At once one with the conspiracy, as well as it's DEADLIEST foe! / Do I look like someone who cares what GOD thinks?! I have no webpage. / I mean, if this was a cartoon, which character would YOU want to smash into a pulp, huh?!?!? Will work for cash. / Insert Nifty ASCII graphic here. Give me Slack, or give me Food (or kill me). TANJ Lives! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:23:46 +0200 (EET) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Nahmeh Below is a description I've made of the powers of the Nahmeh, holy book of Al-Kalim. It's made with the artifact rules from WotI. Enjoy! The Nahmeh Lesser Artifact 200 PP The Nahmeh was first written by Al-Kalim and inscribed by his companion Farid. When Al-Kalim became Immortal, he imbued his holy book with artifact powers, with the help of his patron Protius. Although many copies of the Nahmeh have been made, the original artifact version is currently kept in the Great Mosque in Ylaruam. It is used by the Sultan only in the case of dire emergency (such as a major threat to the whole country). Powers: Attack - Turn Undead (20), Bless (10) Information - Lore (70) Transformation - Create Water (20), Victory (75) Defense - Protection from Evil 10' (25) Power Explanations (see effect descriptions in WotI): Turn Undead - a faithful of Al-Kalim may display the Nahmeh as a holy symbol, turning undead as a 6th-level cleric. Bless - if a prayer is read from the book, it confers a Bless spell on the reader. Lore - by reading the Nahmeh, any question may be answered as by the Lore spell. Create Water - by reading a special page, life-giving water will pour from it. The book is not harmed by this. Victory - if in battle, the leader of an army faithful to Al-Kalim displays the Nahmeh prominently, his troops gain inspiration. Protection from Evil, 10' radius - By reading another prayer, this protection can be invoked. Handicaps: Magic Error - if the possessor tries to cast any wizard spell, he has a 30% chance of failure. Sentience - if the Nahmeh is used by anyone not following the Eternal Truth philosophy, tries to possess the user (save vs. spell at -10 to avoid). When possessed, the user converts to the Eternal Truth and goes to spread the philosophy around the world. Penalties Obsession - the user will become obsessed with destroying any efreeti or fire-using mage he encounters. Weak Magic - the user will inflict less damage with spells (-1 to each die roll). Alignment Change - the user will shift one degree towards Lawful (or LN) alignment. Destroying the Nahmeh To destroy the holy book, it must be taken to the Elemental Plane of Fire, to the City of Brass, where it must be placed into the hottest oven in the palace of the Sultan of Efreet. If the book is kept there for 10 years, it will burn up completely. An adventure opportunity for Ylari PCs could be to rescue the Nahmeh from the efreet. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:32:10 +1000 From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size >From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size >Dave Keyser wrote: >>Ok, the problem is stated much more clearly now. I would say that the best solution is to NOT assume that the north to south circle circumference is 19,400 miles. Make that 24,400 miles, but keep the 19,400 miles circumference for the equator. >>The only thing this changes is the shape of the planet. It now looks more elliptical, like an egg rather than a sphere. The world-shield provides the gravity which hold Mystara together, so it can hold the planet in that shape. >Well, in a fantasy sort of way that might work. But if you're willing to throw aside physics, why concern yourself with a math problem in the first place? 3;)> Like the Earth is spherical in the first place - sorry to tell you guys but it's more elliptical than spherical, so now Mystara is too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:33:44 -0000 From: "Mark Quennell" Subject: Fw: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. - ---------- Lord BKis1 wrote: >I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy >drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far >to harsh. >It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead >but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a >whole level). >Thanks in advance, >BK I know this reply has taken a long time in coming, but my E-mail has been down for a while... All undead in my campaign have a slightly random edge. Sometimes they drain stats, sometimes XP, sometimes maximum hp, and sometimes even skills/proficiencies. This random element makes them really scary, as although the loss isn't permanent, it is also randomly determined in MONTHS, depending on the strength of the undead in question. For instance: a wight becomes a lot more frightening to a fighter with 18 (+3) strength if after one lucky shot, he's back with normal mortal strength of say 14 (+1). That's almost more worrying than losing a level, especially above 9th when all you get is a couple of hp and 1 off your THAC0. Produced by the Spyda's Web. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:39:38 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: >Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in WotI). >Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what about Earth wizards? Earth Gnomes and Moulder Dwarves perhaps? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:29:08 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 11:22 24-03-98 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>At 04:58 PM 3/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >>>Interesting, this might mean that since the weathermagics of Alfheim failed, then rain has perhaps returned to Ylaruam, however for a short ppperiod. >>Well, I also think it's time for Al-Kalim's dream to start and the flowering of Ylaruam to begin. Of course, I would like to see the fabled gate to the plane of fire closed by adventures. >Yes! >How fast do you think the Desert Garden should develope? This is something that has intrigued me for a long while. When the elves reconquer Alfheim they should be convinced to steal their rain elsewhere. Well Håvard, I think that would be too easy to just let the elves steal their rain from elsewhere, unless something akin to the weather situation would happen at the new place, this meaning that the only the elves could regrow the Canolbarth forest is to dry out another place, so the choice is for the elves to either dry out another place and leave it like a desert (uh oh, one or two "s"?) or never regrow their forest. I like problems with no easy way out. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:49:06 -0600 From: "Brian K Deuberry" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim dream What book can I find info on Al-Kalim's dream? From what I've read (from this mail list) it's a fairly serious event. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:47:10 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. At 13:55 24-03-98 -0600, BK wrote: >I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far to harsh. First of all I rarely use level-drainers, I personally hate that ability, as it is very problematic, not just for the players, but also for me as a GM, mainly because I also like to see my players characters develop (not just in personality, but in part also in levels) and it can partly ruin a campaign, where you planned some big encounters and then suddenly half the party is too low level to have a chance to survive. Instead I use custom modified undeads according to Van Richtens Guide (Ravenloft products) and my own imagination. So instead of level-drain I use Ability scores drains (and with the weak undeads you get a save, if it is succesful the loss is only temporary) or the effects of "touch spells" (insanity, disease, paralysis, poison, charm, sleep, confusion, aging, horror/fear, bleeding (loose HP every round or turn untill magically cured), very-hard-to-heal wounds (no magic can heal this, only time or a remove curse is needed) as all these effects can leave a party crippled after an encounter with an undead menace, but it is not detrimental to the campaigns further development in the long run (and saves you for a lot of bookkeeping, which you have to do, when a character looses a level and I hate that too) as the characters goal afterwards is not a quest to find XP, but a quest to cure disease or sanity or restore the physical or mental health of a character. >It is important to me to maintain the horror of facing mid-powerful undead but not just have the party turn and flee(which they do when undead take a whole level). Agree quite a lot, because what the party fears is not hte monster, but the game mechanic and it is not so much fun having the players being scared of the game mechanic as the storytelling of the monster itself. Personally I feel that my suggestions mentioned above can be just as scaring, but not just in gameterms, but also in storytelling (it can be a good idea to drag an NPC along and have him or her killed by the monsters special ability, so the PCs have something to fear for they have seen it work). Hope this helps Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:57:23 +0100 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paths and Points Magic System for D&D (Was Re: New Saving Thr... At 08:33 20-03-98 -0800, Jenni wrote: >Really? Do you happen to remember under which Island these 'spells' are listed? I have to admit I only scanned my copy of the Irendi gaz looking for an obvious spell list, so if these are 'unusual' that would explain why I missed them. They still may not be appropriate, but I guess its worth a look-see ... I'll have to peruse that Gaz more closely unless you can give me a page number :-) Oops, well better late than never. Hope it still is of use. They are on p. 53 (think thats is Roister Island) and they are being mentioned as shamanic, but you could decide if should be shamanic in the magic-user tradition or the in the clerical tradition or a that these shamans are a third group. >Thanks for the additional information, Lille! Just a minor (and trivial) comment, you see Lille My is my nickname, not my whole name and it seems peculiar and a bit strange to only see the first half (especially as it just means little), so when just settling for writing a part of my nickname, then it would be better to use My :-) (just a little musing on my own nickname, hope you don't mind) Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:51:53 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim dream On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Brian K Deuberry wrote: >What book can I find info on Al-Kalim's dream? From what I've read (from this mail list) it's a fairly serious event. The Ylaruam Gazetteer. Wrath of the Immortals, boxed set has something on this as well. Basically it involves "terraforming" the desert, ala Frank Herbert's Dune. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #196 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:54:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #197 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: bcb3fda6413b2fb2cc5c5c42f451d103 mystara-digest Friday, March 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 197 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav Re: [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:18:00 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >I just dug this up from an old adventure. It is related to the campaign I ran that took a group (called themselves "Halav's Avengers") from the Caves of Chaos to the Palace of the Silver Princess to The temple of Elemental Evil and eventually through many twists and turns back in time to meet Halav himself. >Enjoy it, destroy it... Hi Jeff! I really enjoyed this. You woundnt happen to have a fully written out song of Halav to use as a players hand out? It would have been cool. Well, anyway, just wanna say that this looks interesting. Got anything else? Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:52:19 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Song of Halav At 06:18 PM 3/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Daly wrote: >>I just dug this up from an old adventure. It is related to the campaign I ran that took a group (called themselves "Halav's Avengers") from the Caves of Chaos to the Palace of the Silver Princess to The temple of Elemental Evil and eventually through many twists and turns back in time to meet Halav himself. >>Enjoy it, destroy it... > >Hi Jeff! >I really enjoyed this. You woundnt happen to have a fully written out song of Halav to use as a players hand out? >It would have been cool. Well, anyway, just wanna say that this looks interesting. Got anything else? Nope. That was pretty much it. I used an old Medieval ballad for the inspiration of the first quatrain or two. Then I handed out the sheet to the priest of Halav's player. It served as part of his character's background. I thought about writing the whole thing, but you gotta realize, those old epic songs were huge. I decided this song should also be huge and take days to sing... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:04:00 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. >At 13:55 24-03-98 -0600, BK wrote: >>I want to get a pulse on how everyone else handles undead(specific to energy >>drain) in there campaigns. I think that the loss of a complete level is far >>to harsh. I do too, but it's a part of game playing. How I deal with Negative plane type undead(Level Drainers), that to me, depends on the gaming group. Really, if certain players are puds, i set them loose to teach them a lesson, sometimes if the modules requires them, i'll use them because that will allow me to use another module, that requires that level of expertise, besides it's tougher to create a high level adventurer because it that might completely change the course of my gameworld history or it intended path, when your characters get as high as level 15, you might as well put them in arena against the lords of the abyss, because that mainly what half of the people with high-level character want to do, they don't want to rule a dominion, they want to continue roaming or in the words of "The Brain" try to take over the world, and that ruins gameplay, Use Level drainers if it looks like the players seem to be in more control of the game than you the DM, they might hate you for it, but they might thank in the long run by having made one epic quest to get those 'precious points' back, the game is all about fun, not points, so having character lose a level is sometimes hard, but to me, it's all for the better. George Valencia visit Mystara Online at http://members.tripod.com/~mktriton/index.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:12:00 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara >At 11:22 24-03-98 +0100, you wrote: >>On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Galwylin wrote: >>>At 04:58 PM 3/23/98 +0100, you wrote: >>>Interesting, this might mean that since the weathermagics of Alfheim failed, then rain has perhaps returned to Ylaruam, however for a short >>>period. >>>Well, I also think it's time for Al-Kalim's dream to start and the flowering of Ylaruam to begin. Of course, I would like to see the fabled >>>gate to the plane of fire closed by adventures. >>Yes! >>How fast do you think the Desert Garden should develope? This is something that has intrigued me for a long while. When the elves >>reconquer Alfheim they should be convinced to steal their rain elsewhere. >Well, I think that would be too easy to just let the elves steal their rain from elsewhere, unless something akin to the weather situation >would happen at the new place, this meaning that the only the elves could >regrow the Canolbarth forest is to dry out another place, so the choice is >for the elves to either dry out another place and leave it like a desert >(uh oh, one or two "s"?) or never regrow their forest. I like problems with no easy way out. Why not just have the elves try to divert water from the Dwarfgate Mts. to the Canolbarth forest? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:15:46 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - WOTI for sale >Hello fellow Mystarans, Lysander the Lurker here. >I have run across 5 copies of Wrath of the Immortals, and a couple of Savage Baronies, all still shrink-wrapped. I would like to know if anyone out there would be interested in one for $10 plus shipping? Please email me privately as I'm way behind in my Mystara-digest reading, >and so as not to spam the list with private sales. >Also have lots of the Night Trilogy (Hollow World modules) as well as Hollow World Gazetteers (Azca, Milenien Empire, Nithia) and a few P W Almanacs, all unused, most still wrapped. All going for half cover price. Please let me know if anyone's interested in what I've got, and I'll put together a list. >Thanks, all! >lysander@nycnet.com I'd like based on my priority the HW Gazetteers, do you happen to have the Red Steel Boxed set? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:41:50 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian >Alphatians are mainly Air wizard, while the Flaems are Fire Wizard. They both come from the same planet, so I suppose there were also Earth and >Water wizards on Old Alphatia (the planet, not the dimension described in >WotI). >Maybe those Alphatians that migrated to Minrothad were Water wizards (and >thus the origin of the spell used my Minrothad Merchant Princes). But what >about Earth wizards? >Ideas, opinions? >-------------- >Fabrizio Paoli Well Fab, I Think maybe they Elvolved into the Mind-flayers, or became the actual Drow of Mystara (not the Shadow Elves, but the Real Drow race), Besides in my campaign i have drow living in the Great Plateu North of Sind, West of Wendar, the possess plenty of Geomancy, and as well as spells with an Arachnid theme to it. would that help, at all? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:49:17 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian At 07:54 PM 3/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey Jeff and everybody else, >Reading this bit about Geomancers reminded me of something I had almost forgotten about from the very old days of my original Mystara campaign (back when I was in junior high school, and was just beginning to collect Mystara stuff during its heyday in the early 80's) Ah the good old days... ... I had a >mysterious Wizard (who I now figure was almost certainly an Alphatian Geomancer) named Zorkhel, who invaded the lands of the Mehirgudi tribe of humans (who I have now placed on the Isle of Dawn, inland from the Ekto-Trikelios region) with an army of Orcs and undead and began casting huge earthmoving spells to alter the actual contours of the land. Cool! Maybe he existed shortly after the time of landfall? At the >time, I was doing this because I had just gotten the Companion set, with its map of the Isle of Dawn (or was that master set?) and was readjusting maps i had already come up with to fit into TSR's new product (story of my life). I know exactly what you mean. When I got the Expert set I created lands for north and south of the Known World. Then I expanded on the map in the Companion set. And then...well you get the picture. Anyway after years of reworking this, I now work from this basic iidea: >My old campaign begins right about where the latest almanacs leave off. in about 1013 or so this Zorkhel would have quietly slipped into the region of the Great Escarpment with a retinue of geomancers and hired orc mercenaries (as well as refugee alphatian troops, etc.) and begun digging a large network of tunnels as a base, then subjeugating the local human population (with his half-orc war chief lieutenant, Gahardek). His eventual aim is to seize control of the whole Isle, especially the gates to the elemental plane of earth in the plateau southeast of Kendach (which is inhabited by Erdeens and Xorns, among other critters). with the air-alphatians mostly gone, he figures that earth-based wizards can begin to rise in power. there is something very earth-oriented about the IoD, so he has chosen this as his power base. the effects of his high level spells may include actually raising up small ranges of hills or eventually causing the explosions of volcanos, etc. - with control of the earth-gate he could do even more. thankfully the thyatins and other groups are keeping him from that.he eventually wants to raise up the land so that the seas recede and the IoD reconnects with Brun near Helskir, cutting off sea traffic through the north channel. anyway i don't have more than this figured out ... except that he should be killed off around 1033 or so by another alphatian expatriate in a duel. after that his chieftans would fall to bickering amongst themselves. >please let me know what you think about this ... criticism is good because it spurs creativity. Well, I really like it. I still like the idea of using this guy as history. In fact he might even make a nice addition to my description of Bettelyn... But as a "current" campaign element he works well. I like the idea of a mage who, instead of being out to destroy the world, is out to change the face of a small part of it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:35:14 +0100 (MET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Lille My wrote: >Well Håvard, I think that would be too easy to just let the elves steal their rain from elsewhere, unless something akin to the weather situation would happen at the new place, this meaning that the only the elves could regrow the Canolbarth forest is to dry out another place, so the choice is for the elves to either dry out another place and leave it like a desert (uh oh, one or two "s"?) or never regrow their forest. I like problems with no easy way out. Yeah, sure, why not? :) I was thinking that they could take the water from somewhere in the sea of Dread. Ofcourse this could affect the Island Kingdoms.. Any thoughts? Seen the Kingdom2 yet by the way? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:26:53 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian In a message dated 98-03-26 21:15:15 EST, you write: << >IMO the old Alphatians were represented by all of the elements and perhaps a >few other types such as necromancy and such. I would say that the Air and Fire >sects were probably the most powerful. Whether the other sects allied with either during the war is debateable. However, it is feasible. >IIRC the Fire Mages travelled to Mystara. Yup - they're the Glantirans. Oops...meant Air Mages. Did that several times in the original post. Thought I fixed all of them. Well, I missed that one. But anyway....I was thinking just how odd it is that the triumpant Air Mages (Alphatians) chose to deviate their magical studies after arriving on Mystara. While on the other hand, the beaten Fire Mages (Flaems) adhered to their fire magics even though it failed them against the Air Mages. You would think that the Flaems would have sought other magical theories than the tried and failed fire magics. I guess this could be explained by the travelling aspect of the Flaems prior to reaching Mystara: ie. no time to perfect new magics. Or it could be Flaemish pride/stubborness that keeps them practicing the fire magics. It would seem that if anyone deviated it would have been the Flaems. As stated, the Air Mages' magics prevailed, while the Fire Mages' magics lost. Seems the victor would stick with the magics that worked if possible (though adapting to Mystara may have caused change). Seems the loser would have sought magics different and superior than those that failed them. IIRC the Flaems' big thing is to eventually smash the hated Alphatians. Perhaps it is their personal honor that keeps them using fire magics. Perhaps the Flaem see it as some big deal to use the same magics that failed their ancestors to beat the Alphatians. A sort of "out doing your ancestors" typed deal. My, that was incoherant. Alex. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:41 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan School of Magecraft >I hope I'm doing this right. I had to switch from the daily posts to the >digest after my ISP needed to be burped and dumped 600+ messages. Next time I'll try to mention the names of the original posters I'm replying to. >>If you read the Black Vessel Carefully you'll discover a mention of a man who died after leaving the Cursed area by living in Slagovich and was killed by his own legacy the Poison Breath Legacy. stories like this one would discouraged Mezrooth al yedom to leave the cursed zone. >There are always exceptions to the rule though. I don't think we should shoot down the idea until we've at least seen it. Never know, it might be the most inventive one ever. >>I was thinking on this matter yesterday. Instead of focusing on Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:54:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #197 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: bcb3fda6413b2fb2cc5c5c42f451d103 spells, monsters, and the like how about a few university backed studies. Studies on the Day of Dread, HollowWorld, the Radiance, what caused Alphatia to sink, the effect on Canolbarth Forest, nuemonics mineral, and so on. Also issues such as the recently emergent Shadow Elves, the meteor and subsequent Crater. IIRC there was mention in one of the PWAs about the discover of ancient Nithian ruins discovered. An increased interest in the legendary empire could occur. Yes there was in PWA 1010 & 1011, the discovery of the ruins and the pilfering of a certain has revived it ancient protector, a doppleganger mummy, which is a mummy that can shapechange itself, it was last reported being in Selenica >Research should always be a strong part of any mage school. I think these ideas would work very well. The first submission I posted wasn't a teacher but more of someone sharing their knowledge. Researcher would fill the same type role also, IMO. >>All studies could be put forward "in character" displaying both fact and fallacy. You could have conflicting studies from different scholars at the KS of M. Or better, work on a rivallry with the Glantrian University by having a Glantrian study of the same issue published that contradicts the Alphatian School.....er ah I mean Karameikan School. And lest we omit some views from the old Mage's Guild. IMO the old Guild may have some harsh feelings toward the School in Krakatos. Any opportunity they can use to discredit the School would be seized upon. >Studies in character is a wonderful idea! One instructor I'm currently working on is taking those harsh feelings the Magician's Guild may hold to heart. Just to give a taste of his feelings... he believes Terari killed Teldon in order to unsurp the master position at the school. Of course, this is because he isn't who he seems to be. Oh, the school is Alphatian. And Ylaruam, Thyatian, Alfhiem, Darokin, etc. It's a reflect of the country of Karameikos. A melting pot of mages much the way Karameikos is a melting pot of nations. In my opinion, of course. >>That is correct. The reason that the Savage Coast and Known World have such few ties is because many Savage Coast dwellers will die when their legacies being released after being away from the cursed lands for some time. >>Mezrooth has so many legacies he would likely not survive. Plus his personality lends itself to research, not teaching. >As I stated before, the possibility is always open and the school is what we make it. galwylin, i can give you an idea, one that i have been toying with in my WOTI campaign, The Darokin-Hule war portion of it, in which Mages from Hule are Teleporting Inheritor of the Flame to Fight Darokinian Soldiers, the only drawback is that they can only stay from a week, and must be taken back to homeland or they'll die. Have Mezrooth Teleport himself to the KS of M., and also have him return back within three days, on the other hand, I think that Mezrooth is somewhat of a Recluse and might not want the mentor position. George Valencia this has been a Mystara Online Production ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:34:45 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian In a message dated 98-03-27 17:10:26 EST, Jeff writes: << But as a "current" campaign element he works well. I like the idea of a mage who, instead of being out to destroy the world, is out to change the face of a small part of it. >> Hmm...change the face of a small part of the world huh? Hmm.....seems like a part of the Path to Immortality. Floating Ar anyone? Ah Jeff, do not tell me you are trying to slip a possible Immortal past me. And after I refrained from setting up a Randel war Immortal. Of Alphatian birth of course. The idea of Alphatians paying homage to a foreign Immortal of war is unsettling :-) Alex who inserted a seldom used smiley face to clearly display a sense of light hearted humor and not seem belligerant. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:50:36 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D, AD&D, Mystara, and other stray thoughts >OK.....yet another question.... >The Brotherhood of Order aka The Lawful Brotherhood; When did they first >arrive on the Savage Coast and begin exploring? The Ispan arrived in 900 a.c., The Lawful Brotherhood Arrived at the Claw Peninsula (which later became part of Cimmaron County)a couple years before them, and settled there, they began exploring prior to the barony's war ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:11:58 -0500 From: "Brian K Deuberry" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. Do your players know that you plan (or do) that?? WOW! I would be hung for purposely keeping levels low via use of undead drains. Yes, powerfull characters normally effect major events in the game world. But it's there world as much as it is yours. I can think of hundreds of ways of preventing a change in world history with out trying to keep the levels low. The point of my message was really the complete oppsite. I found level loss to much and was looking for a alternate. Which BTW I have had some good replys. Thanks. >I do too, but it's a part of game playing. How I deal with Negative plane type undead(Level Drainers), that to me, depends on the gaming group. Really, if certain players are puds, i set them loose to teach them a lesson, sometimes if the modules requires them, i'll use them because that will allow me to use another module, that requires that level of expertise, besides it's tougher to create a high level adventurer because it that might completely change the course of my gameworld history or it intended path, when your characters get as high as level 15, you might as well put them in arena against the lords of the abyss, because that mainly what half of the people with high-level character want to do, they don't want to rule a dominion, they want to continue roaming or in the words of "The Brain" try to take over the world, and that ruins gameplay, Use Level drainers if it looks like the players seem to be in more control of the game than you the DM, they might hate you for it, but they might thank in the long run by having made one epic quest to get those 'precious points' back, the game is all about fun, not points, so having character lose a level is sometimes hard, but to me, it's all for the better. >George Valencia *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:00:08 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Hey! That was my NPC. And no, he's not going to make it to immortality. In my original campaign (which I am most likely going to set 1013-1034 AC when I get all the kinks worked out with the official timeline), Zorkhel did indeed manage to reconfigure a big part of the coastline of the Isle of Dawn, but he was eventually killed by his arch rival Conto Brookpark, an Alphatian expatriate wizard who had a flying castle (top that, Haldemar of Haaken!) and a secret base in the Thanegioth Archipelago. Anyway that was a long story. It kinda bums me out that I can't just dump the whole thing onto a webpage as is, because (maybe it's just vanity) i keep thinking instead that i will eventually figure out how to get it into the canon timelines. maybe i should just give up on that. one thing i've thought of, Jeff, regarding "old developments" that got ixnayed by the later TSR canon, is that perhaps they are A) demi-planes accessible from particular points on the map or B) variant Mystaras. I mean, now we've got people putting Oerth and Faerun on Mystara, why not include our own campaign developments? It's interesting actually to see how many strange similarities show up ... for instance, Mystaros has all of his M-Spanish types on the west coast of the IoD ... once upon a time I had a similar Spanish kingdom on the southern tip, with colonies in Ochalea (which was a jungle island filled with Oltec tribes, instead of M-Chinese) ... I later decided to remove that to make way for canon, but now I hear about M-Cuba being developed on the eastern Thanegioths and I wonder why I bothered. maybe mystara is just too nebulous to pin down, eh? anyway yet again i think it's all the doing of the aranea, they are behind just about everything. them and the planar spiders. and the kopru. and the carnifex. and the outer beings. well, there's just a whole lot of weird bad guys draining their weasels into the time stream. bloody unsanitary if you ask me. sheez. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Alex295 wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-27 17:10:26 EST, Jeff writes: ><< But as a "current" campaign element he works well. I like the idea of a mmage who, instead of being out to destroy the world, is out to change the face of a small part of it. >> >Hmm...change the face of a small part of the world huh? Hmm.....seems like a part of the Path to Immortality. Floating Ar anyone? >Ah Jeff, do not tell me you are trying to slip a possible Immortal past me. And after I refrained from setting up a Randel war Immortal. Of Alphatian birth of course. The idea of Alphatians paying homage to a foreign Immortal of war is unsettling :-) >Alex >who inserted a seldom used smiley face >to clearly display a sense of light hearted humor and not seem belligerant. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:08:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian George wrote: >Well Fab, I Think maybe they Elvolved into the Mind-flayers, or became the actual Drow of Mystara (not the Shadow Elves, but the Real Drow race), Besides in my campaign i have drow living in the Great Plateu North of Sind, West of Wendar, the possess plenty of Geomancy, and as well as spells with an Arachnid theme to it. would that help, at all? very interesting! I like the word elvolved (was that intentional?) ... my theory on mind flayers of course is that they evolve from the Kopru in the far future. As for Drow, I have a tribe of them living above ground in the desert of Septentriona ... maybe these are connected to yours in the Great Plateau. Do you use the Ungolwaith (Sand Folk) that have been written up for the Adri Varma? IMC there are also renegade Flaem nationalists (who hate the non-Flaemish elements in Glantri) who live out in the plateau and trade with the ungolwaith and certain humanoid tribes (mostly hobgoblins). One idea I was working on was the idea of a Carnifex-style demi-Dracolich ... it would be a huge petrified Tyrannosaurus skull (with ruby eyes, perhaps symbols of Arik) stuck in a huge sandstone wall (i really liked dinosaur national monument as a kid) in a cave, where ungolwaith tribesmen (and perhaps geomantic arachnotheistic drow) come to worship it. it wouldn't be able to move, but it would be very powerful in its small territory. also i had sort of worked out some ideas for a renegade Hulean general named Maqa Vellu who controls part of the plateau ... let me know if any of this interests you, or send me anything you've got, or both. i always like new ideas. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:20:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Well, i don't think they are. I was working on some ancient history last night, and discovered some interesting things. Following the destruction of Blackmoor, Brun was primarily populated by Oltec (more properly Azcan) peoples. Then the Antalians flooded in from the northeast. The Azcanz inhabited the regions east of the (now) Greazt Plain of Fire, and most of what we now know of as the Known World. The Antalians lived in the Northern Reaches and Norwold. The Ethengars, an Azcan/Neathar (Antalian?) mix, lived in the grasslands around the canolbarth/Ethngar area (recall there was still glacial activity in the north). The Nithians arose along the river Nithia, supposedly an Azcan/Neathar mix (I say they were more likely a mix of Tanagoro colonists fleeing westwards- cf. the Pearl Islands- and Antalian peoples, with some Azcan thrown in for good measure). That leaves us with this picture, c.2000 BC: Northeast Known World- Antalia. North KW- Ethengarians Western and Central KW- Azcan folk; Urduks to the far west; Malpheggi lizard men in the swamp. Eastern KW- Nithians The Taymorans came in a few centuries earlier, possibly remnants of the Thonian Empire who found no sanctuary anywhere but the southern coasts of the regions now known as Karameikos and the Five Shires. Also, the Meditor and Verdier elves lived in the Karameikos region. The southern coasts drop off in 2000 BC, shattering the Taymoran civilization, and stranding the elves in the Minrothad islands. In 1750 BC, another cataclysm breaks chunks off the Five Shires and Atruaghin shores, stranding the Makai and lizardmen. Where did the Makai suddenly come from? My hypothesis is that they were not Neathar folk, but rather remnants of the Taymoran Empire that had intermingled with the Azcan folk to the west, though maintaining much of their Taymoran heritage in legends and myths. (You could even make an argument for the Taymoran Necromancy of Mystaros' timeline based on this- the Makai have certain known necromantic practices). Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. Anyway, what do the rest of you think? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:55:04 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian At 05:34 PM 3/27/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-27 17:10:26 EST, Jeff writes: ><< But as a "current" campaign element he works well. I like the idea of a mmage who, instead of being out to destroy the world, is out to change the face of a small part of it. >> >Hmm...change the face of a small part of the world huh? Hmm.....seems like a part of the Path to Immortality. Floating Ar anyone? That had occured to me...in some manner or other... >Ah Jeff, do not tell me you are trying to slip a possible Immortal past me. And after I refrained from setting up a Randel war Immortal. Of Alphatian birth of course. The idea of Alphatians paying homage to a foreign Immortal of >war is unsettling :-) I agree. But I suppose they could have turned to a new war god out of shame for destroying a planet... >Alex >who inserted a seldom used smiley face >to clearly display a sense of light hearted humor and not seem belligerant. The humor is appreciated! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #197 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, March 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 198 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. [MYSTARA] - Leaving Savage Coast (was Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:59:22 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian At 04:00 PM 3/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey! That was my NPC. And no, he's not going to make it to immortality. Selfish! >In my original campaign (which I am most likely going to set 1013-1034 AC when I get all the kinks worked out with the official timeline), Zorkhel did indeed manage to reconfigure a big part of the coastline of the Isle of Dawn, but he was eventually killed by his arch rival Conto Brookpark, an Alphatian expatriate wizard who had a flying castle (top that, Haldemar of Haaken!) and a secret base in the Thanegioth Archipelago. Anyway that was a long story. It kinda bums me out that I can't just dump the whole thing onto a webpage as is, because (maybe it's just vanity) i keep thinking instead that i will eventually figure out how to get it into the canon timelines. maybe i should just give up on that. I still like the idea of these things happening around the time of landfall. >one thing i've thought of, Jeff, regarding "old developments" that got ixnayed by the later TSR canon, is that perhaps they are A) demi-planes accessible from particular points on the map or B) variant Mystaras. Either one could be cool. I >mean, now we've got people putting Oerth and Faerun on Mystara, why not include our own campaign developments? It's interesting actually to see how many strange similarities show up ... for instance, Mystaros has all of his M-Spanish types on the west coast of the IoD ... once upon a time I had a similar Spanish kingdom on the southern tip, with colonies in Ochalea (which was a jungle island filled with Oltec tribes, instead of M-Chinese) ... I later decided to remove that to make way for canon, but now I hear about M-Cuba being developed on the eastern Thanegioths and I wonder why I bothered. maybe mystara is just too nebulous to pin down, eh? Indeed. I had the Isle of Dawn being a series of city-states run by orcs. Kept humans in their place a bit... >anyway yet again i think it's all the doing of the aranea, they are behind just about everything. them and the planar spiders. and the kopru. and the carnifex. and the outer beings. well, there's just a whole lot of weird bad guys draining their weasels into the time stream. bloody unsanitary if you ask me. Draining their weasals?? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:09:15 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Cthulhudrew wrote: >That leaves us with this picture, c.2000 BC: >Northeast Known World- Antalia. >North KW- Ethengarians >Western and Central KW- Azcan folk; Urduks to the far west; Malpheggi lizard men in the swamp. >Eastern KW- Nithians >The Taymorans came in a few centuries earlier, possibly remnants of the Thonian Empire who found no sanctuary anywhere but the southern coasts of the regions now known as Karameikos and the Five Shires. Also, the Meditor and Verdier elves lived in the Karameikos region. It depends on what idea you follow concerning Taymoran origins. Personally, the Thonian connection is possible, and given what Matt Levy and I have discussed privately on Thonians and their possible origins and makeup, this could be interesting (eh, Matt!). Personally I see them as a Neathar/Oltec cross, who originated along the coasts of Skothar (or maybe in old Thonia - Thonian/Peshwa cross), and thus might be related to the modern Jennites. Say they rose around BC 2700 or so, and migrated west. They settled along the old southeastern coasts of Brun, and built their great city-states. Possibly by BC 2000 they had fragmented, and maybe some had long since turned to necromancy and having undead rulers as per Mystaros' neat work. >The southern coasts drop off in 2000 BC, shattering the Taymoran civilization, and stranding the elves in the Minrothad islands. You sure about this? I thought the big quake was BC 1750, which blasted the Taymorans and stranded the elves/proto-Makai/lizard men. Hmm, I'll check PC3 to be sure, but for some reason that date stands out. Anyhow, I could be wrong, but I'm just asking :) >My hypothesis is that they were not Neathar folk, but rather remnants of the Taymoran Empire that had intermingled with the Azcan folk to the west, though maintaining much of their Taymoran heritage in legends and myths. (You could even make an argument for the Taymoran Necromancy of Mystaros' timeline based on this- the Makai have certain known necromantic practices). >Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. Where they could have been absorbed by Doulakki/Eastwind clan humans, etc. >Anyway, what do the rest of you think? I think this bears further investigation, my esteemed fellow M-historian! I have long felt that the Makai are more Polynesian than anything else. What you suggest is as clear an explanation as anything else for how these people got to where they are. Comments on my comments, anyone? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:15:43 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Matt Levy said: >>one thing i've thought of, Jeff, regarding "old developments" that got ixnayed by the later TSR canon, is that perhaps they are A) demi-planes accessible from particular points on the map or B) variant Mystaras. Jeff Daly said: >Either one could be cool. I say: I like the idea of alternate Mystaras, too. Gives us room for all the other ideas we wouldn't have had the guts to share, otherwise! :) Spake Matt yet again: >>anyway yet again i think it's all the doing of the aranea, they are behind just about everything. them and the planar spiders. and the kopru. and the carnifex. and the outer beings. well, there's just a whole lot of weird bad guys draining their weasels into the time stream. bloody unsanitary if you ask me. Jeff queried: >Draining their weasals?? I pronounce: Sure! Why not? Weasel-drainging a pretty nasty thing to do in the multiverse. That and not returning the Immortals' lawnmower (which the Outer Beings do all the time) :-) Seriously, though, Jeff, Matt's come up with a really cool "conspiracy theory" if you will about how the disparate elements that have been written (officially and not) can be stitched together. I think it's neat, anyhow, but unfortunately I don't have the fortitude right now to share it all - do you have it handy, Matt? Otherwise, let me know and I'll be happy to send it to you. Geoff >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Well, i don't think they are. I agree. But I am about to throw more wrenchlings into your mix, so brace yourself... >I was working on some ancient history last night, and discovered some interesting things. Following the destruction of Blackmoor, Brun was primarily populated by Oltec (more properly Azcan) peoples. This depends whether you want to use various net-based theories on this, many of which indicate that there were quite a few Blackmoorian/Thonian colonist groups on Brun by this point, intermingling in various places. Plus which, don't forget about the significance of nonhuman groups, especially dwarves and giants. Then the > Antalians flooded in from the northeast. The Azcanz inhabited the rregions east of the (now) Greazt Plain of Fire, and most of what we now know of as the Known World. does it say in the HW or GAZ 14 specifically where the Azcan and Oltec empires were and the relative size of each? I got the impression the Azcans were really a much smaller but more militant group. The Antalians lived in the Northern Reaches aand Norwold. As well as the Ethengar grasslands, before the Ethengar got there ... also, they may have spread much further west (see my antalian genealogy timeline) ... and don't forget about the elves in glantri. The Ethengars, an Azcan/Neathar (Antalian?) mix, lived in >the grasslands around the canolbarth/Ethngar area (recall there was still glacial activity in the north). Mystaros' theory (not that i necessarily endorse it) is that the ethengars are descendants of freed taymoran slaves. The Nithians arose along the river >Nithia, supposedly an Azcan/Neathar mix (I say they were more likely a mix of Tanagoro colonists fleeing westwards- cf. the Pearl Islands- and Antalian peoples, with some Azcan thrown in for good measure). why do you figure tanagoro? (just curious) ... i tend to use linguistic clues on things like this, which means the Nithians are most closely related to the Taymorans, Alasiyans, and the Enduk-derivative civilizations of the SC. i think there may have been herathian contact with Nithia. >>That leaves us with this picture, c.2000 BC: >Northeast Known World- Antalia. >North KW- Ethengarians >Western and Central KW- Azcan folk; Urduks to the far west; is there an official date on when the urduks got to the desert? i would guess that culturally and linguistically they are an antalian-nithian offshoot (like the Traldar, Doulakki, Thyatins, Kerendans, Sindians, and Dunael), so they may not have moved west till a bit later ... Malpheggi >lizard men in the swamp. have you read Geoff Gander's Mogreth timeline? The lizard men may have been a lot more widespread than this. IMHO B5 has circumstantial evidence they were in NW biazzan. X6 shows that they went far to the west as well. >Eastern KW- Nithians and their various subject peoples, including the proto-alasiyans. >The Taymorans came in a few centuries earlier, possibly remnants of the Thonian Empire who found no sanctuary anywhere but the southern coasts of the regions now known as Karameikos and the Five Shires. the overlords of taymora were indeed thonian imperial refugees, but the common people were possibly related to the nithians or the ethengars. Also, the >Meditor and Verdier elves lived in the Karameikos region. >The southern coasts drop off in 2000 BC, shattering the Taymoran civilization, and stranding the elves in the Minrothad islands. >In 1750 BC, another cataclysm breaks chunks off the Five Shires and Atruaghin shores, stranding the Makai and lizardmen. Where did the Makai suddenly come from? i thought it was always canon that they were related to the azcan-descended atruaghins. who said they were neathar? >My hypothesis is that they were not Neathar folk, but rather remnants of the Taymoran Empire that had intermingled with the Azcan folk to the west, though maintaining much of their Taymoran heritage in legends and myths. (You could even make an argument for the Taymoran Necromancy of Mystaros' timeline based on this- the Makai have certain known necromantic practices). makes a lot of sense. isn't there a makai lich - jaime honeycreeper or something like that? very weird considering the quasi-hawaiian basis of the makai. >Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. i always wondered about the human inhabitants of southern darokin, but also don't forget the Viper/Tiger clan of Atruaghin (not very far from Ierendi) and the fact that (IIRC) there are still rogue bands of orcs near port tenobar... >Anyway, what do the rest of you think? i for one am fascinated! (but still eagerly anticipating your responses to the above troublesome questions) peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:17:50 -0500 From: "DJ Sahlas" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues >>>It is not a coincidence that the >>>great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. >>>Whah?? You make a rather strong statement here! I find that I really must respond here. I believe this is relevant to this mailing list because these authors are excellent sources of inspiration for a fantasy world as rich as Mystara, and to label them as rascists might discourage some from reading their works. You do indeed make a strong and a deceptive statement to boot. Lovecraft was clearly the most rascist by far of these writers, and the least likely to be regarded as one of the great fantasy writers of the early 20th century. Now don't get me wrong, I love the guy's stuff, but it is definitely warped (that's the whole point of his work!) and it would no doubt have horrified Tolkien. To include this author in the bunch is clearly meant, perhaps unjustifiably, to push your argument forward. To call Tolkien a rascist, a man whose writings and life work is filled with so much depth and spirituality, is sad and inaccurate. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and extrapolations to rascism in his work are tenuous at best. As perhaps the greatest fantasy writer of the (mid) 20th century, your claim of rascism based on one poorly remembered quote is pretty shaky and I would doubt the veracity of the source, or that it was taken out of context, given the sheer disconcordance with everything else the man said and did. Burroughs and Howard are more interesting. Howard was definitely writing in the tradition of Burroughs, who has had many claims of rascism leveled against him. These claims are usually based on his descriptions of the negro cannibal tribe in his first Tarzan novel, and in the very next book he goes out of his way to make amends, describing a noble, warrior tribe and providing many a companion for his famous protagonist from among this group. Remember that Burroughs was writing for the general public over several decades, and his scathing accounts of Germans and the Nazi menace in novels published during WWI were so vigorous that he was censored in Germany, only to change the beliefs and behaviour of his characters yet again as time went by. There have been many essays written on the subject, the general opinions of which are that Burroughs was not, in fact, a rascist at all. As for Howard, despite being born and bred in the deep South, he was nowhere near as much of a white supremescist as Lovecraft, and the latter's extreme views in fact strained the relationship between these two members of the "Weird Tales" triumvirate. Similar to Burroughs, there have been critical essays regarding his suspected rascist views (especially given his famous line: "Long before the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, or the rise of the sons of Aryas..."), the majority of which, again, generally disregard the notion of Howard as a rascist. The one thing that is clear, is that this certainly didn't colour his lively sense of pace and setting. Like Burroughs, the man was a born storyteller first and foremost. >>Which part is too strong? They were racists (and you can find evidence in their writings of this), and I believe this is not coincidental, because the imagery of fantasy in this period (ancient warrior-types slaughtering the forces of darkness) was coming from an intellectual and cultural Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:45:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #198 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: ed366ca0676fbc7646efad03a831abf4 Status: RO >>context that was intimately connected with RW political issues. You really can't bring together authors from opposite ends of the spectrum of twentieth-century fantasy literature, make assumptions about their beliefs and generalizations about the intellectual and cultural context of the times, and hope to get away with it without some measure of resistance! I've seen shades of the issues you raise from other sources in the past, but having read at least one biography about each one of the above mentioned authors (listed below), I think you should reconsider or at least further research the sources of your (respected!) opinion. Jim Sahlas References (off the top of my head): Tolkien: A biography (Humphrey Carpenter) Howard: Dark Valley Destiny (de Camp) Burroughs: Master of Adventure, also: the Man who Created Tarzan Lovecraft: a biography, plenty in Dark Valley Destiny as well *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:05:00 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Matt Levy wrote: >This depends whether you want to use various net-based theories on this, many of which indicate that there were quite a few Blackmoorian/Thonian colonist groups on Brun by this point, intermingling in various places. Citing Mystaros. Yes, he was rather thorough in this. Matt said again: >does it say in the HW or GAZ 14 specifically where the Azcan and Oltec empires were and the relative size of each? I got the impression the Azcans were really a much smaller but more militant group. I remember reading that the Azcans were indeed less numerous, and were conquered by the Oltecs, and then used the Oltecs' teachings against them. I have no idea how large their nations were, though official sources say they lived in a great forest where the Great Waste/Sind Desert are today. Matt wrote yet again: >why do you figure tanagoro? (just curious) ... i tend to use linguistic clues on things like this, which means the Nithians are most closely related to the Taymorans, Alasiyans, and the Enduk-derivative civilizations of the SC. i think there may have been herathian contact with Nithia. Yes, I think this is logical too, given the exhaustive work we've done on Cynidicea thus far - and more to come in the future, I hope! :) Matt: >have you read Geoff Gander's Mogreth timeline? The lizard men may have been a lot more widespread than this. IMHO B5 has circumstantial evidence they were in NW biazzan. X6 shows that they went far to the west as well. B2 (which takes place in northeastern Karameikos in the mountains) has a tribe of lizard men living in an isolated swamp. X6 indeed shows lizard men too, and PWA II says that the Amalur Lowlands, which lie west of the Adakkian Mounts on Davania, are inhabited by lizard men who keep troglodyte slaves. Finally, don't forget Shazak. All of these, and GAZ 2 itself, prove that lizard men are indeed widespread, and have been for some time. GAZ 2 even goes as far as to EXPLICITLY state that a great lizard man empire existed in the Ylaruam area (which was once a great swamp) before the fall of Blackmoor - it mentions the undead lizard men in the Kirkuk scenario as having been frozen in the glaciers during the ice ages that followed the GRoF, and the mentionings that the lizard men had their own priests and wizards, and that they created their own artifact-type device (the lizardskin bed). To my mind, we don't need any more evidence than this that at least one lizard man empire or nation existed in the past, and in all likelihood it was quite sophisticated compared to the poor saps we see in the swamps today. GAZ 2 also hinted that it is in fact the modern lizard men who are the regressed descendants of these ancient lizard men. Sorry to digress, but I really like lizard men, Carnifex, and the like - gee, how can you guess? :-) Anyhow, here's my further contribution! :) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:38:00 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Well, i don't think they are. : >Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. >Anyway, what do the rest of you think? While I agree there may have possibly been Makai settlers of the southern Darokin region, I think traces of their culture would largely have been absorbed for the following reasons (post-1750 bc): (i) The Eastwind tribes of Darokin's Streel Plain that have a somewhat warlike reputation (from the Elf War) may have interacted with the Makai people "trapped" on the mainland with hostility, either annihilating their remnants through war or assimilating them (and we're talking about over a thousand years to assimilate them in here.) (ii) Darokin, by its geographic location, serves as a melting pot. Possible traces of Makai blood and genes may have been passed into future generations of the fusion race that (IMC at least) one calls Darokinian; after so many centuries those roots could become quite lost. (iii) It's possible the Makai long ago rediscovered what happened to the rest of their people, and left the main land for the shores of their islands in Ierendi (they're not that far separated). Or that branch of Makai may have mysteriously died out; being too small a population to sur- vive (plague, food blight, war, humanoid migration), ala Roanoke. If anything, Darokin's cosmopolitan nature would support your premise of finding elements of Makai culture in Akorros and Port Tenobar; though no significant note to this fact is made in GAZ10 (I'd call it the Selenica Corollary, since Selenica has distinct Karameikan, Dwarf and Ylari influences). I'd advance that any Makai presence in southern Darokin in modern times was brought back (imported from) the Ierendian islands, and would be unlikely to survive the last 2750 years. -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:38:51 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size stan wrote: >>From: Derek Harmon DDDave Keyser wrote: >>>The only thing this changes is the shape of the planet. It now looks more elliptical, like an egg rather than a sphere. The world-shield provides the gravity which hold Mystara together, so it can hold the planet in that shape. : : >>Well, in a fantasy sort of way that might work. But if you're willing to throw aside physics, why concern yourself with a math problem in the first place? 3;)> : >Like the Earth is spherical in the first place - sorry to tell you guys but it's more elliptical than spherical, so now Mystara is too. Well, to be perfectly technical, its an oblate spheroid. However, it is flatter on the poles for a physical reason, because it rotates on its axis. That flattens the poles and bulges the equator. Now, if it spun north-to-south -- then it would look oblong. 3:)> That would make an interesting mini-campaign, too! Think of the chaos that would ensue if suddenly the Sun rose from the North and the Serpent Penin- sula were dark and frozen for several months each year. Real adventure oppor- tunity there. Which is not to say there's no room for imaginative fantasy solutions to the problem; but only that if you're bothering to solve a realistic in- consistency, and you're applying a fantasy solution, why not just re-define the inconsistency so it doesn't exist... ...well, actually my original quote describes that better. 3:)> -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:08:45 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar There is some logic to the idea that the Darokinians would have wiped out the Makai of the Malpheggi region by now ... after all there is not even any sizeable Atruaghin minority mentioned in GAZ11, making me think that the Darokinians have been pretty brutal against previous inhabitants. However we would still need to pin down the history of what DID happen in those intervening years ... including of course the Doulakki period. Darokin in its modern form is a fairly recent invention after all. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Derek Harmon wrote: >Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >>Well, i don't think they are. >: >>Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. >>Anyway, what do the rest of you think? >While I agree there may have possibly been Makai settlers of the southern Darokin region, I think traces of their culture would largely have been absorbed for the following reasons (post-1750 bc): >(i) The Eastwind tribes of Darokin's Streel Plain that have a somewhat warlike reputation (from the Elf War) may have interacted with the Makai people "trapped" on the mainland with hostility, either annihilating their remnants through war or assimilating them (and we're talking about over a thousand years to assimilate them in here.) >(ii) Darokin, by its geographic location, serves as a melting pot. Possible traces of Makai blood and genes may have been passed into future generations of the fusion race that (IMC at least) one calls Darokinian; after so many centuries those roots could become quite lost. >(iii) It's possible the Makai long ago rediscovered what happened to the rest of their people, and left the main land for the shores of their islands in Ierendi (they're not that far separated). Or that branch of Makai may have mysteriously died out; being too small a population to sur- vive (plague, food blight, war, humanoid migration), ala Roanoke. >If anything, Darokin's cosmopolitan nature would support your premise of finding elements of Makai culture in Akorros and Port Tenobar; though no significant note to this fact is made in GAZ10 (I'd call it the Selenica Corollary, since Selenica has distinct Karameikan, Dwarf and Ylari influences). I'd advance that any Makai presence in southern Darokin in modern times was brought back (imported from) the Ierendian islands, and would be unlikely to survive the last 2750 years. >-- Stonelight >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:07:37 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >>A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. >>What do you guys think? >I tried ot upload the map with my post. oops! view it at: >http://cwspot.com/Mystara/Tinman/ergoth3.gif I was surprised that no one had any thoughts about this map? I thought I would post this again incase something didnt go through. What do you guys think. I think that Greyhawk fits in nice. I guess it is to the right size too. Patriarch post your message to SaveMystara! http://cmnwrld.com/forumbin/savemystara/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:44:26 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-26 17:06:54 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >hey i like that! how about a whole magic system based on people's humours? yyou could be naturally predisposed to fiery or melancholic or whatever types of magic ... As a matter of fact I have an old RPG from the 1980s in which "spirit magic" (the more advanced kind) is based on humors and spirit nodes, which are generally contained in some vital part of the body (heart for humans, brain for elves, etc.). The "lesser" magic is based on the seven elements. Most interesting is its economic premise, which is that every character has a social status that entitles him to a certain level of equipment. Treasure is measured according to its effect on social status -- in other words, is it sufficient to raise anybody's social status? If so, what is the highest social status that can be affected? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:44:35 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wanted: Revised undead rule. In a message dated 98-03-26 12:33:14 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >One thing that bothers me, especially about vampires, is why is the ddraining of blood not enough. Granted wraiths can feed on the life energies but D&D/AD&D vampires are completely a different matter compared to the legendary source. At least the legends I enjoy. Given the effects of a vampire's bite in most legends, I would think that draining of constitution would be more appropriate. After all, in most legends the typical level zero victim of a vampire is not slain by the first bite unless the vampire goes into a major feeding frenzy. Of course, the lost constitution could eventually be recovered with rest, assuming that the vampire does not come back for more feedings later. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:44:33 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: [MYSTARA] - Leaving Savage Coast (was Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft) >From what I read in the Red Steel boxed set, it is possible for one of the inhabitants who have been affected by the Red Curse to leave the area -- but the chance that they would know what to do and take all of the proper actions to survive is rather small. First off, I would assume that there is a region that Bruce Heard once referred to as the "Haze" where one who is not tainted by the Red Curse will not fall under its influence but one who is so tainted will remain so, with cinnabryl still providing protection, etc. But if a person decides to travel well away from the region, he will most likely make the mistake of stocking up on cinnabryl. The key to survival in this case, of course, is to know when to stop wearing cinnabryl and then endure the loss of Legacies when it occurs and to be sure not to return "home" long enough to become "cursed" again. Also, use of the "Maintain" spell instead of cinnabryl gives characters leaving the Savage Coast area a greater margin of error -- as near as I can tell, this spell causes no adverse effects such as the Red Blight, although the spell becomes increasingly difficult to cast the farther one travels from the Savage Coast (as cinnabryl is the material component of the spell). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #198 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:26:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #199 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 65f2f31409cde2cd13560b70e177fdbb Status: U mystara-digest Saturday, March 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 199 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Monsters [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re(3): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:57:16 -0500 From: Brian M Lauer Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun I would be very intrested how integrating the 3 settings worked past the map. Oh, the map looked good to me, what did you create it in? thanks, brian >mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >>>A friend of mine connected three worlds together. Relms, Grehalk, and Our fav Mystara. >>>What do you guys think? >>I tried ot upload the map with my post. oops! view it at: >>http://cwspot.com/Mystara/Tinman/ergoth3.gif >I was surprised that no one had any thoughts about this map? I thought I would post this again incase something didnt go through. What do you guys think. I think that Greyhawk fits in nice. I guess it is to the right size too. >Patriarch >post your message to SaveMystara! http://cmnwrld.com/forumbin/savemystara/ >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. +--------------------------------+ | Brian M Lauer | | blauer@iglou.com | | http://members.iglou.com/blauer/ | | ICQ# 4294983 | +-------------------------------- + *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:51:06 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] GURPS Monsters Håvard, Although it has taken me a while to say so, I just wanted to let you know I liked your GURPS races and monsters posts, and will be saving those for future reference. Although my GURPS version of some of the races are a bit different, I think you did a good job. Thanks for your efforts, and I hope to see more on the list in the future! Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:03:26 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products While I recieved a fair amount of feedback on the idea, I think the major stumbling block is one not easy to overcome: maps. While handdrawn maps are a possibility, personally I would much rather see some decent computer generated maps. If these could ever be done, we might have a chance. That remidns me, has anyone here ever used Campaign Cartographer to generate maps of Mystara, and if so, are they available on a site somewhere? I am thinking of purchasing CC2, (having heard it is much better than CC1, which I have seen), for the primary purpose of mapping Mystara, and would like to see if nayone else has had decent results. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:06:55 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - More Mystara Stuff In A Planescape Product Håvard Rønne Faanes meandered fecklessly... >The Fundamental includes a quote from a Mystaran adventurer/scholar. >OK, so it ain't exactly a new Gazetteer... >What's the quote? It is a bit long to retype, but basically it is a Mystaran scholar going on about how he feels he has found something more elementally fundamental than elementals, hence the name. Kinda amusing. >I think it's great that Plansescape hasn't totally forgotten about us. However I still feel that Mystara should be considered another dimension. To each his own... :) Leroy "If it takes a shoehorn" Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:34:46 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) Flame meandered fecklessly... >hmmm could you share this rationale with me? I have been trying to use both >the immortals and Gods and what I got from TSR was that they become demi-god >in Planescape, but with the powers they get most of the Immortal could kick >any of the other gods ass(well maybe not greaters but the others no porb) So >could you help me out? Sure, but first a quick warning: no one ever likes my ideas on these things, so if you don't either it won't hurt my feelings. Cosmology My version of Mystara sits within a crystal sphere on the prime material plane of the Planescape multiverse, like any other TSR AD&D setting. The original OD&D planar cosmology is gone, replaced fully by Planescape, as is now canonical (not than canon matters). In addition, I have created the concept of dimensions. A dimension is like a macro plane that contains other planes; a planar container. In the macroverse (or whatever), there are many dimensions, of which the PS multiverse is only one. The laws of reality can vary wildly from one dimension to another. For example, there could be several dimensions that work like the PS multiverse, with only slight differences, while others could be similar to our own. Our Earth and its universe could be a dimension, as could be many others that "mirror" our earth. Whether there is a finite or infinite number of dimensions is unknown (like layers of the Abyss), but there are certainly a lot of them, making for a multitude of possibilities. Although I would never do such a thing, a person so inclined could stick most of their favorite fictional settings in a dimension, from Star Trek to Clive Barker's Imajica. The sphere that Mystara is in is an oddity in the planes in that the walls between dimensions are much thinner, making transit a bit easier. In the past there has been several significant dimensional transitions: Than Air Mages of Alphatian journeyed to Mystaraspace. The d'Ambrevilles and McGregors came to Mystara through a dimensional gate. The HMS Beagle, an FTL starship, punched a hole between dimensions and crashed on Mystara. The Old Ones found Mystaraspace. Despite this, dimensional travel is extremely difficult except under certain circumstances, and few know of the other dimesnions, much less understands them. The Immortals In another dimension, one much different than our own, there exists a race of beings known to some as the Old Ones. Far different than a flesh and blood race, the Old Ones were composed of energy and thought. They were the only sentience in their dimension, and their vast powers made them its ruler. At some point the Old Ones became aware of other dimensions and explored them. Due to dimensional differences, they could not actually enter these dimensions, but they could look and manipulate. The PS multiverse was the first dimension they found with other intelligent life, and with the walls being thinner in Mystaraspace, it is the point at which they entered. Fascinated by what they found, they spent a lot of time looking around. At some point an anomaly entered Mystaraspace; the avatar of a god. Having only explored the Prime, the Old Ones had never encountered the gods before. Ever curious, they snatched it up and experimented with it. Not long after, several more entered, apparently following the first. The grabbed these, too. Working with these avatars and some of the indiginous life, they discovered the principal of belief altering reality, especially as it pertains to the worship of gods, though there were currently none worshipped in Mystaraspace. They also found they could alter a sentient being to have powers similar to gods, and that such altered beings seemed to have the potential to evolve beyond this, possibly even into something simialr to the Old Ones themselves. So, they empowered a few such sentients, as well as wiping much of the minds of the avatars they found, and set them upon Mystaraspace. As time went on they would find a new canidate for empowerment, and alter them. Eventually the small number of empowered beings, Immortals, set up their own society and, not knowing of the Old Ones, began to choose the occasional canidate for Immortality. The Old Ones, seeing this as one huge experiment, would then empower them. The Immortals had taken the same role as gods would in other spheres, and soon it became apparent that the principles of belief worked for them as well: the more worshippers an Immortal had, the more his power increased beyond what the Old Ones had granted them. In game terms, Immortals are sentient creatures empowered by the Old Ones. Their powers work similar to the powers of the gods. The six ranks of Immortality apply, with a change: the last two ranks can only be reached through the empowerment of belief from prime material beings. Thus an Immortal does not need followers to exist, but does need them to reach Eternal or Hierarch. If they loose followers, they will begin to drop down until they reach Empyreal. For the most part the gods of the multiverse do not give much thought to the Immortals. They simply see them as other gods whose pantheon has another name for themselves. Some of the Immortals and gods share the same name and "concept", and how they view each other varies, from hostility (Hel) to curiosity (Odin). Unless an Immortal has worshippers, they do not have a home on the Outer Planes. Even a large number of worshiped Immortals don't. These Immortals keep domains in the Ethereal on demi-planes. As for the Immortals kicking ass on the gods, I don't really see it. Going by the guidelines for Immortals in the Wrath of the Immortals, and the current rules for gods in AD&D, I think, for the most part, gods are more powerful. If a god of demi- or above says your dead, your dead. Immortals can effectively do this, but rule- wise have to make some rolls or cast some spells. My suggestion is don't get wrapped up in such things. I think anyone looking to integrate Mystara and Planescape should focus more on the ideas and flavor over the rules. I use the following comparative ranking... Initiate Demi- Temporal Lesser Celestial Lesser Empyreal Intermediate Eternal Greater Hierarch Nothing Comparative A Hierarch is an immortal that has mastered both the power granted him by the Old Ones and the power gained through mass worship. They are the most powerful beings in the Multiverse, after Old Ones and overpowers (in that order), although far from being as powerful. Why don't they open an Immortal can of whoopass? For several reasons. First, they don't necessarily know they can; the Immortals and gods don't butt heads often, considering Mystara is a bit of a backwater sphere, so their comparative power never comes up. Second, most of them aren't looking to do such things, prefering to focus on Mystara. Finally, there are far more gods out there willing to work together to remove such a threat, should it arise, than there are Immortals. Well, I _think_ that covers it all. Even if no one is likely to use it, I hope it was an enjoyable read. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:57:30 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) sounds interesting. what is the name of the game? can you explain this strange economic system in more detail? (i feel like there's something i'm not getting) peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-26 17:06:54 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >>hey i like that! how about a whole magic system based on people's humours? yyyou could be naturally predisposed to fiery or melancholic or whatever types of magic ... >As a matter of fact I have an old RPG from the 1980s in which "spirit magic" (the more advanced kind) is based on humors and spirit nodes, which are generally contained in some vital part of the body (heart for humans, brain for elves, etc.). The "lesser" magic is based on the seven elements. Most interesting is its economic premise, which is that every character has a social status that entitles him to a certain level of equipment. Treasure is measured according to its effect on social status -- in other words, is it sufficient to raise anybody's social status? If so, what is the highest social status that can be affected? >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:53:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >Cosmology >My version of Mystara sits within a crystal sphere on the prime material plane of the Planescape multiverse, like any other TSR AD&D setting. The original OD&D planar cosmology is gone, replaced fully by Planescape, as is now canonical (not than canon matters). IIn addition, I have created the concept of dimensions. A dimension is like a macro plane that contains other planes; a planar container. In the macroverse (or whatever), there are many dimensions, of which the PS multiverse is only one. If you can have multiple dimensions containing whole multiverses, why not have one where there is Planescape Mystara and one where there is OD&D Multiverse Mystara? Then make the two Mystaras identical in every respect except which planes they are connected to, and make dimensional travel between them really easy. That was you don't have to get rid of anything! >unknown (like layers of the Abyss), but there are certainly a lot of them, making for a multitude of possibilities. Although I would never do such a thing, a person so inclined could stick most of their favorite fictional settings in a dimension, from Star Trek to Clive Barker's Imajica. Why wouldn't you do such a thing? I would! (not that this will surprise anyone) How about Hellraiser vs. the Neogi vs. the Vorlons vs. the Cylons aboard the Enterprise while docked at Deep Space Nine when it had drifted into the Twilight Zone/Ravenloft except the whole thing is a Holodeck simulation which has run haywire and begun producing legions upon legions of undead tinker gnome were-gremlins? m@2 "Hey - why don't they put the tribbles on the Borg ship?" - my goofy friend Rhondaar, Goddess of the Universe, Queen of the Impossible, Chantatrix of Corn. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:58:45 -0600 From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >While I recieved a fair amount of feedback on the idea, I think the major stumbling block is one not easy to overcome: maps. While handdrawn maps are a possibility, personally I would much rather see some decent computer generated maps. >If these could ever be done, we might have a chance. >That remidns me, has anyone here ever used Campaign Cartographer to generate maps of Mystara, and if so, are they available on a site somewhere? I am thinking of purchasing CC2, (having heard it is much better than CC1, which I have seen), for the primary purpose of mapping Mystara, and would like to see if nayone else has had decent results. Soon Tim ( a good friend of mine, not on the MML, but he can read the posts off our site) will have all of the known world and more up on a site. Here is a map of Karameikos. http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/karameikos.gif It is really good. If you take it Please leave the 'by Tim Roberts' on it. He put a lot of time into it. Yes it was made by CC2. I would advise anyone to buy it. I am all Mac so the PC program runs slow on my machine. Here is his world map with GrewHawk and Faerun http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/ergoth3.gif Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:01:53 -0600 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:26:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #199 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 65f2f31409cde2cd13560b70e177fdbb Status: U From: Patriarch@cmnwrld.com (Patriarch) Subject: Re(3): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Internet writes: >I would be very intrested how integrating the 3 settings worked past the map. >Oh, the map looked good to me, what did you create it in? CC2 was used to creat it. Tim Roberts made it. He is going ot create of the countries to go with it. It will go up piece by piece. Patriarch mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:18:28 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology (was: Farrow and Shadow Elves) Matthew Levy meandered fecklessly.. >On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >If you can have multiple dimensions containing whole multiverses, why not have one where there is Planescape Mystara and one where there is OD&D Multiverse Mystara? Then make the two Mystaras identical in every respect >except which planes they are connected to, and make dimensional travel between them really easy. That was you don't have to get rid of anything! An interesting idea, and a person could certainly do this. For me, there are some things that I have no desire to keep, prefering the Planescape model. I can toss the OD&D cosmology without a hint of regret, feeling no need to keep it, just like many (probably most) could care less about adding PS to Mystara. >How about Hellraiser vs. the Neogi vs. the Vorlons vs. the Cylons aboard the Enterprise while docked at Deep Space Nine when it had drifted into the Twilight Zone/Ravenloft except the whole thing is a Holodeck simulation which has run haywire and begun producing legions upon legions of undead tinker gnome were-gremlins? :) Sounds good. Maybe you should do it as a PBeM... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:26:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule( Iran ) and other Political Issues I think that you have fundamentally misunderstood what I meant by calling these authors' works racist. Furthermore, I am not at all certain that we can resolve this conflict, because the arguments you use are ones that I find unacceptable at a basic level. However I will attempt to go through bit by bit and say exactly what I disagree with; after this post, lest this thread becomes annoying to anyone, I will argue my point only in private (unless there is a particularly Mystara-relevant issue) - I am not afraid to defend my views, but don't want to try anyone's patience by using the list as a forum for political debates beyond the scope of the list. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, DJ Sahlas wrote: >>>>It is not a coincidence that the >>>>great fantasy writers of the early 20th century, such as Tolkein, Lovecraft, Burroughs, and Howard, were racists to one degree or another. >>>>Whah?? You make a rather strong statement here! >I find that I really must respond here. I believe this is relevant to this mailing list because these authors are excellent sources of inspiration for a fantasy world as rich as Mystara, and to label them as rascists might discourage some from reading their works. I think that those who are discouraged from reading books because they disagree with the positions of their authors may find themselves somewhat ill-prepared to deal with life in the real world (as well as short on reading material). Anyway I've said repeatedly that I am not ashamed of my love for the work of authors who I am quite certain were racists ... just as an average American I consume tons of ideological material all the time that is perhaps more subtle in its fascism but all the more insidious because of it. >You do indeed make a strong and a deceptive statement to boot. I have said nothing deceptive. You may disagree with how I am using my terms (if so, I would suggest that perhaps you need to think more critically about how YOU use them), but I have hidden my motives or my logic from no one, and I have engaged in no trickery. Do not blame me for your own misinterpretations. >Lovecraft was clearly the most rascist by far of these writers, and the least likely to be regarded as one of the great fantasy writers of the early 20th century. In fact I would say that Lovecraft has been way more influential and important than Tolkien, if you look at the success of modern horror and sci fi versus fantasy as forms of fiction ... Lovecraft has Robert Bloch, Stephen King, John Carpenter, H.R. Giger, the Alien films, and many other intellectual descendants, whereas Tolkien's influence has been fairly limited outside of D&D and a very specific paperback market. I suppose you could count the film "Willow" as a Tolkien descendent too, but even this is more influenced by Star Wars (in turn, a derivative of Akira Kurosawa and Joseph Campbell). So I suppose "great" is relative. Now don't get me wrong, I love the guy's stuff, but it is ddefinitely warped (that's the whole point of his work!) and it would no doubt have horrified Tolkien. I don't know what source you have for saying this. It is *possible* that Tolkien would have opposed the nihilism of Lovecraft's work, but this only makes Tolkien the more dangerous of the two (the Nazis, like Tolkien, believed in an essential goodness of the Aryan race and western civilization ... Lovecraft was a little bit less naive in this respect, and in fact eventually abandoned his racism and conservatism and became a socialist later in life). My whole point is that I think Tolkien's symbolism is morally suspect on its own ... NOT by association with Lovecraft (that was just because I was making a general argument). This has nothing to do with being "warped" (sometimes deviance and weirdness can be useful forms of social critique) and everything to do with Tolkien being a man of his time and social position, not particularly extraordinary at all. To include this author in the bunch is >clearly meant, perhaps unjustifiably, to push your argument forward. In what was is it unjustifiable? It seems to me that you want to unjustifiably omit him in order to push my argument backwards, which as I've just said actually will not work at all. The crux of what I am saying is perhaps more directed at Tolkien than at Lovecraft ... Tolkien is considered respectable (as you seem to consider him) and this is precisely why I want to tarnish him. There need not be any sort of shame or politically correct self-censorship about this, but we don't need to worship him either. He was a right-wing Anglo-Saxon chauvinist, and we don't need to hide from this fact in order to enjoy his work. I enjoy lots of things far more obviously fascist. Why play D&D anyway if you don't have at some level a repressed will to power? Admit it and you'll feel a whole lot better, I promise. :) >To call Tolkien a rascist, a man whose writings and life work is filled with so much depth and spirituality, is sad and inaccurate. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and extrapolations to rascism in his work are tenuous at best. This is exactly the sort of insidious apologetic gobbledygook I am talking about. There were Roman Catholics collaborating with the Nazis all over the place, including the Bishop of Zagreb being complicitous in the genocide of Serbs and Jews. I come from a Catholic background and I know many good and moral Catholics and I in fact prefer the Catholic Church to many other versions of Christianity, but Catholics are absolutely as capable of pettiness, snobbery, hatred, and evil as any other group. In fact my criticism of Tolkien is precisely that his interpretation of spirituality and the source of much of the depth of his writings comes from a profoundly mystical reactionary politics. What makes Tolkien's stories so compelling is that they reenchant a mythical heroic tradition that we feel the "modern world" has taken away from us ... an ability to believe in society and civilization as naturally good, and to see the enemies of goodness as external, as physically marked, as deserving of destruction through heroism. There is a Christian element, too - Smeagol's redemption through sacrifice, the idea that absolute power automatically corrupts, etc. - but what makes Tolkien's view distinct from Christianity per se is that the sacrificial aspects are linked to the virtuous heroism of noble white men. This is actually a recurring theme now in many venues (the end of Terminator 2 is a good example), but these are not necessarily specifically derived from Tolkien - - he is just one notable example. I consider all of these stories basically fascist, even while I myself find them mythically compelling in many ways. It is perhaps not inappropriate to point out that the Nazis had very powerful religious and spiritual imagery and I don't think that it is as easy to draw the line between their ideology and ours as you seem to think. In many ways, the quest for "true spirituality" in the modern world carries with it an inherent danger of fascism, and it's something I've become more and more aware of and fought against in various ways in my own life. I just want others to be able to talk about this openly without falling back on simplistic "Tolkein writes happy stories, good, Lovecraft and Nazis scary, bad" dichotomies. As perhaps the greatest fantasy writer of the (mid) 20th century, yyour claim of rascism based on one poorly remembered quote is pretty shaky and I would doubt the veracity of the source, or that it was taken out of context, given the sheer disconcordance with everything else the man said and did. You haven't shown me any disconfirming material at all yet. You've just made naive assumptions and relied upon an essentially uncritical liberal definition of racism ... "those who explicitly talk about racial supremacy are racists, those who don't aren't" ... you haven't addressed my argument, which is that Tolkien's racism is subtle, and it is inherent in the type of imagery he uses and the moral views espoused in his work seen *in the context of the politics of the time he was writing in*, not that it is explicit. However, I do remember reading that quote, I do not think it is AT ALL divergent from the rest of his attitudes, and I think that if you want to call me a liar because it saves you from having to look critically at your hero, then you place too much stake in him and not enough in critical thought. >Burroughs and Howard are more interesting. Howard was definitely >writing in the tradition of Burroughs, who has had many claims of rascism leveled against him. These claims are usually based on his descriptions of the negro cannibal tribe in his first Tarzan novel, and in the very next book he goes out of his way to make amends, describing a noble, warrior tribe and providing many a companion for his famous protagonist from among this group. this is equally foolish. the "noble savage" stereotype of non western peoples is just as old and just as racist as the "degenerate cannibal" archetype ... in fact it was often the same people who spread both cliches in the early days ... and Burroughs includes other images of "The White Man versus the bloodthirsty savage" in books besides Tarzan, including the part where John Carter battles a whole tribe of Apaches at the beginning of the Mars novels (which are of course all about a race of green savages in a new "frontier" settings). I dare you to make the argument that images of the "heroic" white man fighting off the attacks of "bloodthirsty" native Americans can be anything but racist to the core. Furthermore, the fact that he was making "amends" in his later writing only proves he had a guilty conscience or perhaps that he was worried about sales, not that he did not think in racist terms - anyway, this whole argument of "were these guys racists or not" is taking me away from the central point that I am trying to make - which is that racial *imagery* and symbolism are part of our culture, and that some genres of fiction particularly show this (for instance, early 20th century fantasy-horror-sci fi) ... but you must understand that I am not trying to argue from some position of purity or righteousness. There were of course people at that time who were consciously and specifically trying to move outside of racial ideology (a small minority, and mostly socialists), but even then we have to ask how successful they were within the social context of the time ... and in modern day America, race is so thoroughly coded all over the place (especially on TV and in the music industry) that it is almost impossible to "think your way outside of it". But such an admission of difficulty is a much different thing from the standard "moderate" or "liberal" move of equating racism only with active supremacism. Remember that Burroughs was writing for the general public over sseveral decades, and his scathing accounts of Germans and the Nazi menace in novels published during WWI were so vigorous that he was censored in Germany, only to change the beliefs and behaviour of his characters yet again as time went by. There have been many essays written on the subject, the general opinions of which are that Burroughs was not, in fact, a rascist at all. I dispute the understanding of racism upon which you and these essayists rely. Also, there were PLENTY of American racists who opposed the Nazis ... it was wartime after all. Note that in my original post I also mentioned Tolkien's opposition to the Nazis. Where you and I differ is that you seem to think that those authors who aligned themselves with Anglo-American democracy and against the Nazi Menace should be let off the hook. I do not. Everything I know about history tells me that American and British society were deeply racist at that time (in many ways they still are, and in certain respects have even gotten worse). Certainly, I am glad the "good guys" won the war, but I don't think we were all that much cleaner ... the US in particular was beginning to engage in various eugenics programs that, while less extreme than the death camps, were still pretty nasty - not to mention the use of racism to further the pacific war, the internment of japanese americans, and the tuskeegee experiments ... none of these things is equivalent to what the Nazis did, but they sure ain't innocent or noble either. >As for Howard, despite being born and bred in the deep South, he was nowhere near as much of a white supremescist as Lovecraft, and the latter's extreme views in fact strained the relationship between these two members of the "Weird Tales" triumvirate. Similar to Burroughs, there have been critical essays regarding his suspected rascist views (especially given his famous line: "Long before the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, or the rise of the sons of Aryas..."), the majority of which, again, generally disregard the notion of Howard as a rascist. The one thing that is clear, is that this certainly didn't colour his lively sense of pace and setting. Like Burroughs, the man was a born storyteller first and foremost. Rather than going through it again, I will just refer you to the comments above. The imagery itself is part of a particular cultural milieu that is connected to race, violence, masculinity, tradition, and individualism ... I am not talking about specific uses of the word "aryan" or open endorsements of the nazis. >>>Which part is too strong? They were racists (and you can find evidence in their writings of this), and I believe this is not coincidental, because the imagery of fantasy in this period (ancient warrior-types slaughtering the forces of darkness) was coming from an intellectual and cultural context that was intimately connected with RW political issues. >You really can't bring together authors from opposite ends of the spectrum of twentieth-century fantasy literature, make assumptions about their beliefs and generalizations about the intellectual and cultural context of the times, and hope to get away with it without some measure of resistance! well, i didn't expect not to meet resistance. However, I think that you have missed the point of my argument again ... I am deliberately making generalizations about the time because I think these generalizations are justified, and I have provided argumentation to back it up. Certainly I realize that I can never "prove" these connections ... my argument is an imaginitive and interpretive one, in the tradition of literary criticism ... I can't know exactly what these guys believed, because they are dead now and even if they weren't i would never "get inside their heads" - but I can interpret the imagery they use in a larger cultural and symbolic context, and I stand by my interpretation as opposed to yours (which, from what I have gathered of it, rests on an essentially "liberal" notion of racism that I find unworkable and unconvincing). I am of course willing to discuss this further but I wonder whether we will not just get bogged down on unresolvable semantic and categorical differences. I hope that is not the case. I've seen shades of the issues you raise from other sources in tthe past, but having read at least one biography about each one of the above mentioned authors (listed below), I think you should reconsider or at least further research the sources of your (respected!) opinion. I would of course like to read these, when I have time. I own de Camp's biography of HPL (I think that he also spends way too much time on HPL's "racism" from a pointless liberal-moderate framework) and have read several things about Tolkien (as well as C.S. Lewis, another interesting figure), but my analysis of Howard and Burroughs comes just from their fiction itself. I don't think my argument particularly rests upon biographical data (I am basically deconstructing the texts as part of a larger cultural form, not as expressions of particular minds - mention of these names was just for examples), but it might of course help me to understand where you're coming from. at any rate I probably won't have the chance to do so till at least a month or so from now. As I said, if you want to discuss this further please email me off-list. peace, m@2 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #199 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:01:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #200 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 6da6ab2ec24588d782434f6eecf514c3 Status: U mystara-digest Sunday, March 29 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 200 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #199 Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology [MYSTARA] - Colhador Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:50:51 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Leroy wrote: >Sure, but first a quick warning: no one ever likes my ideas on these things, so if you don't either it won't hurt my feelings. Won't hurt your feelings? Good. All I can say is... Yuck! Phooey! >My version of Mystara sits within a crystal sphere on the prime material plane of the Planescape multiverse, like any other TSR AD&D setting. The original OD&D planar cosmology is gone, replaced fully by Planescape, as is now canonical (not than canon matters). In my ideas of AD&D Mystara, that's the way I see it too. >Than Air Mages of Alphatian journeyed to Mystaraspace. The d'Ambrevilles and McGregors came to Mystara through a dimensional gate. >The HMS Beagle, an FTL starship, punched a hole between dimensions and crashed on Mystara. >The Old Ones found Mystaraspace. Just one question. If these all are subject to the same 'physics' as Mystara, why not place them in the same dimension? The Alphatians, d'Ambrevilles, McGregors from another planet; the Beagle from another time; the Old Ones original gods. Does that screw with Mystara lore too much? I'm tired and don't feel like looking all that up >Initiate Demi- >Temporal Lesser >Celestial Lesser >Empyreal Intermediate >Eternal Greater >Hierarch Nothing Comparative I came up with much the same though Heirarchs became greater powers. I pictured them as the head powers of the sphere. Then Matthew wrote: >If you can have multiple dimensions containing whole multiverses, why not have one where there is Planescape Mystara and one where there is OD&D Multiverse Mystara? Then make the two Mystaras identical in every respect except which planes they are connected to, and make dimensional travel between them really easy. That was you don't have to get rid of anything! That could work though Star Trek burnt me out on those 'mirror universes'. The Leroy wrote again: >An interesting idea, and a person could certainly do this. For me, there are some things that I have no desire to keep, prefering the Planescape model. I can toss the OD&D cosmology without a hint of regret, feeling no need to keep it, just like many (probably most) could care less about adding PS to Mystara. That Planescape is pretty cool to me. That's one reason I'm working towards working it into Mystara. Then Galwylin made a request of our list owner (if he hadn't ticked him off to much): Leroy, is there any way to have the digests reply to mystara-l@mpgn.com instead of mystara@mpgn.com? I've had to resend mail *again* cause I forgot to add the -l. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:53:18 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #199 Patriarch wrote: >Here is a map of Karameikos. >http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/karameikos.gif It is really good. If you take it Please leave the 'by Tim Roberts' on it. He put a lot of time into it. Yes it was made by CC2. I would advise anyone to buy it. I am all Mac so the PC program runs slow on my machine. Wow! That was a great map. I had never seen CC's output. Makes me want the program now! - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:32:35 -0000 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Galwylin spewed forth... Leroy wrote: >>Sure, but first a quick warning: no one ever likes my ideas on these things, so if you don't either it won't hurt my feelings. >Won't hurt your feelings? Good. All I can say is... Yuck! Phooey! Ohhh, what I wouldn't do for a "/bite" command on a mailing list... >>Than Air Mages of Alphatian journeyed to Mystaraspace. The d'Ambrevilles and McGregors came to Mystara through a dimensional gate. >>The HMS Beagle, an FTL starship, punched a hole between dimensions and crashed on Mystara. >>The Old Ones found Mystaraspace. >Just one question. If these all are subject to the same 'physics' as Mystara, why not place them in the same dimension? The Alphatians, d'Ambrevilles, McGregors from another planet; the Beagle from another time; the Old Ones original gods. Does that screw with Mystara lore too much? I'm tired and don't feel like looking all that up Well, for a couple of reasons... One, in all seriousness: I didn't want to. I like dimensions. Two, I do feel it would warp the feel of these events a bit. Three, there is no world in my multiverse that is a mirror of Earth, like the one the d'Ambrevilles and McGregors came from. Some bare certainly resemblences (like Mystara), but no actual mirrors. Four, there is no indigenous high-tech culture in my multiveres. The best it gets is late Renaisance (mangled that, didn't I?), with the occasional gnomish steam engine. Five, purple monkey dishwasher. Six, the Old Ones are much more powerful than gods. IMC they are more powerful than overpowers. >Leroy, is there any way to have the digests reply to mystara-l@mpgn.com instead of mystara@mpgn.com? I've had to resend mail *again* cause I forgot to add the -l. Nothing I can do about it, though I will pass the word on to the guys at MPGN about it and see what they cn do. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Colhador Hello all! Leafing through PC3 (Sea People) and X7 (War Rafts of Kron), I found an inconsistency regarding the sunken city of Colhador. At least, it could be seen as such. PC3 describes the ruins as supposedly having been an island with a city, inhabited by elves, which sank centuries ago. X7 describes it as having been inhabited by "air breathers", and the city sank centuries ago. It is inhabited by the main villain of the adventure, Hadric the velya, who in life was in the ruling family of Colhador before it sank. It is implied that he has human in former life. Stay tuned tomorrow for my proposal on how to link it all together. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:55:33 EST From: RLaRue Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Leroy wrote: >>Snip<< >>Well, I _think_ that covers it all. Even if no one is likely to use it, I hope it was an enjoyable read.<< Interesting. I am dealing with this very problem right now, since my Mystara campaign just took a sharp left turn into Planescape. I wasn't thrilled at first (yes I know, a DM has complete control of where his campaign goes, but this one would've surprised anyone), but I soon had ideas filling my diabolical mind and decided to let the campaign stay on the planes for awhile. This brought up alot of questions of how Mystara fits into the AD&D multiverse etc. Leroy's idea is pretty much what I came up with some minor differences, such as the origin of the Old Ones. I really like how he explains the origin of the Immortals that have the same names as some "true" Gods. (Leroy, if you don't mind, I may use some version of that for my campaign.) I think Leroy put it all together in a logical and intelligent way. Well done. I use a modified version of Planescape. Sigil is a normal shaped city at the "top" of the Spire. The factions and cant are limited to Sigil. The planes are more vast and there is no "planar-social entity" that views everyone else as "clueless" (i.e. I've done away with the "cooler than yourself" attitude that is a bit too prevalent in PS). Right now that PCs are trying to help a Rogue Modron find it's way back to Mechanus and eventually find their own way home to Mystara. Only two of the original five PCs made it through the last adventure, so there are three new "plane lost" PCs. I've tried to set up a quest designed to return them all to where they most want to be (which is different for each of them). They popped in near Silvania (gate town to Olympus) and are now adventuring with a band of Greeks who are trying to be the epitome of Olympian perfection. The leader of the Greeks has been poisoned by the snakes of a Medusa and has turned leadership over to one of the PCs. The PCs have to find a cure for him, or they're stuck with a bunch of "heroic" Greeks following them around. Of course the recipe to the only know cure is held by a Minotaur at the center of a maze-like prison made by the gods to punish him for claiming to "hold more knowledge then the gods themselves". Once this is done, the PCs will have to journey through the planes searching out the parts to an artifact that will allow them to return home. Cliche', but I think it'll be lots of fun. I hope to tie the challenges to the essence of the plane's alignment and force the players to understand the plane before they can complete the challenge. I want to avoid a "kill your way across the planes" sorta campaign. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Rick PS The planes will be fun, but I'm looking forward to getting back to Karameikos and having the Church of Karameikos, Cult of Halav, Church of Thanatos, the King's men, the Order of the Griffon and the Iron Ring make my player's lives a living nightmare. After a very sad funeral, of course. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:08:34 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size << have you ever looked at how tiny greenland is comparatively on a real globe as compared to a flat map? peace, m@2 >> Likewise Russia and Canada are smaller (but they are the two greatest nonetheless). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:08:36 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) << why you guys baggin' on moms so hard? moms rock! peace, m@2 >> Fine! Such comments really help. :-7 Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:34:38 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) okay there wasn't much substantive in my post. My only point was that (as I was discussing with Mike earlier) while it may SEEM like certain types of people are thoroughly "uninteresting" for gaming purposes, this all depends on what kind of game you play. If you conceptualize the game from a worldview that makes mothers ineffectual and superfluous characters, then they can pretty much disappear from your game play. But if you want to have a richly detailed and interesting fantasy world, there's no reason to focus on conventional adventuring and violent action to the exclusion of all else. It's (as most things) a matter of preference, but one that I think bears public debate. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< why you guys baggin' on moms so hard? moms rock! >peace, >m@2 >> >Fine! Such comments really help. :-7 >Jamuga Khan >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:36:49 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun << I was surprised that no one had any thoughts about this map? I thought I would post this again incase something didnt go through. What do you guys think. I think that Greyhawk fits in nice. I guess it is to the right size too. >> I don't like it and I would prefer to place Oerth or Faerun in the same solar system as Mystara. I hope you're satisfied now. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size also true. somewhere i once saw a "politically correct" world map which was projected such that the countries near the equator retained their realistic size relative to the countries nearer the poles (though it distorted shape somewhat) ... it showed how tiny europe really is and how much the conventional maps distort the relative size of the continents in favor of the northern industrialized countries at the expense of the southern "third world" countries. kind of interesting when you think about it. m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: ><< have you ever looked at how tiny >greenland is comparatively on a real globe as compared to a flat map? >peace, >m@2 >> >Likewise Russia and Canada are smaller (but they are the two greatest nonetheless). >Jamuga Khan >"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:39:07 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador ok, now i've found your actual message, Geoff. Does PC3 really say it was an Elven City? I thought for sure it was Taymoran. But then I'm not sure what the relationship between the Taymorans and the Sea Elves was exactly. peace, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:01:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #200 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: 6da6ab2ec24588d782434f6eecf514c3 Status: U - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: >Hello all! >Leafing through PC3 (Sea People) and X7 (War Rafts of Kron), I found an inconsistency regarding the sunken city of Colhador. At least, it could be seen as such. >PC3 describes the ruins as supposedly having been an island with a city, inhabited by elves, which sank centuries ago. >X7 describes it as having been inhabited by "air breathers", and the city sank centuries ago. It is inhabited by the main villain of the adventure, Hadric the velya, who in life was in the ruling family of Colhador before it sank. It is implied that he has human in former life. >Stay tuned tomorrow for my proposal on how to link it all together. >Geoff >-- >Geoff Gander, BA 97 >Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:52:09 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-28 17:13:07 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >sounds interesting. what is the name of the game? can you explain this sstrange economic system in more detail? (i feel like there's something i'm not getting) The game was "Swordbearer". As for the economic system, every item is listed with a social status next to it. A player may freely equip himself with any ten items from his own social status or lower. There are a few exceptions -- thieves, for example, can acquire items from above their social status, but they must be concealed and therefore count double (as they are stolen). Servants and hirelings are handled in a similar manner. The idea behind this removal of normal bookkeeping is that it reflects a mindset that is more medieval than capitalistic -- a nobleman is expected to have a lot of high quality goods available to him not because he happens to be rich but because his status as a nobleman entitles him to it and he is expected to keep up certain appearances. Normal economics can be ignored as long as the characters don't get too carried away -- but that "ten item limit" prevents most problems. Treasure is assigned a social status. For example, let us say that three characters of social statuses 17, 8, and 6 (a knight and two servants, perhaps) find a treasure of social status 10. It may be given to one character or shared, but the treasure drops in value by one level per character sharing the treasure. So if the treasure is split three ways, it raises all three characters to social status 8 -- meaning that only the lower ranking servant sees any real gain. It would not be out of the question for the knight to refuse his share -- it is after all mere "pocket change" to him -- and let his two servants rise to social status 9. Of course, that may raise them to the point that they can no longer be his servants, but that is another matter. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:59:34 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) I like it! In general I find that equipping is the most pointlessly time consuming part of the character generation process ... people spend too much energy trying to minmax their gp spending. i like the system you've got better. i think i may adapt some version for mystara .. any tips? m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-28 17:13:07 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >>sounds interesting. what is the name of the game? can you explain this ssstrange economic system in more detail? (i feel like there's something i'm not getting) >The game was "Swordbearer". As for the economic system, every item is listed with a social status next to it. A player may freely equip himself with any ten items from his own social status or lower. There are a few exceptions -- thieves, for example, can acquire items from above their social status, but they must be concealed and therefore count double (as they are stolen). Servants and hirelings are handled in a similar manner. The idea behind this removal of normal bookkeeping is that it reflects a mindset that is more medieval than capitalistic -- a nobleman is expected to have a lot of high quality goods available to him not because he happens to be rich but because his status as a nobleman entitles him to it and he is expected to keep up certain appearances. Normal economics can be ignored as long as the characters don't get too carried away -- but that "ten item limit" prevents most problems. >Treasure is assigned a social status. For example, let us say that three characters of social statuses 17, 8, and 6 (a knight and two servants, perhaps) find a treasure of social status 10. It may be given to one character or shared, but the treasure drops in value by one level per character sharing the treasure. So if the treasure is split three ways, it raises all three characters to social status 8 -- meaning that only the lower ranking servant sees any real gain. It would not be out of the question for the knight to refuse his share -- it is after all mere "pocket change" to him -- and let his two servants rise to social status 9. Of course, that may raise them to the point that they can no longer be his servants, but that is another matter. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:00:48 EST From: Alex295 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 14 Operation Hydra: Day 14 Force A- Adm. Helena watches impatiently as her Force maintains it seige. She goes over the city's layout several times and neither her nor her subordinates can see a way to assault the citadel without excessive losses. Though none want to, they decide upon a seige. To keep the troops busy, Adm. Helena has some of her troops go into the surrounding woods and chop down trees to construct bridges and other seige structures. Adm. Helena also rotates troops away from Minrothad City but still within sight of the defenders. She tells them to loosen up and relax. She hopes that this will not only help morale, but it will also lower the morale of the defenders. Force B- Gen. di Cicero starts a concerted bombardment of Harbortown. He wishes to await the arrival of the bulk of 20th Cohort's troops before staging any serious assault. Progress against the walls is slow. The stone walls are thick and garrison counterfire heavy. The counterfire is so intense that the 26th Assault Cohort is hard pressed to keep its artillery peices operationable. By nightfall, a quarter of the arty peices are at the rear being repaired. The walls are damaged but little more than pockmarked. The good news is that one garrison arty position is destroyed. This bombardment is mirrored by the naval aspect of the Force. The Fleet galleys and sailing ships rotate in waves to engage targets along the harbor facilities. In this regard, progress is good. The wooden structures cannot stand up to the bombardment. The downside is that two piers are damaged badly. One by Harbortown defenders. The other by a misplaced volley from a wave of galleys. Adm. Serpico is furious at this as he wants the piers intact to enable easier unloading of the Marines. To keep the defenders from further damaging the piers, Adm. Serpico has the galley crews focus on supressing the areas around the piers. By nightfall, troops of 20th Cohort under Gen. Valicius are close to Harbortown. Gen. Valicius sends messengers to inform Gen. di Cicero that his forces would arrive early the following day. Force C- Gen Nikkos orders his resting troops back into action. Joining their fellows maintaining the perimeter, they take up positions around the Hin line. Despite the picket and perimeter troops being small in number, the Hin have not had the strength of arms to move back into these areas during the night. Feeling the Hin are beaten, Nikkos enters the town himself and travels to the front. He waves a white flag and walks forward to parley with the Hin commander. Nikkos and Nimblefingers talk for several minutes. Nikkos urges the Hin to surrender to save lives. He stresses that the Hin have resisted far beyond the what any nation asks. Nimblefingers thinks about it but has to decline. Nikkos and Nimblefingers part and as soon as they are clear the volleys continue. The Hin GM tells his people of the Thyatian offer. Most want to surrender but vow to hold out since help is so close at hand. Nikkos orders his men to assault the Hin redoubt. The Hin resistance is stiff, but not invincible. The perimeter is steadily compacted. During the final thrust into the last Hin held sector, Kimber Nimblefingers is injured to a state of unconciousness. With Thyatian warriors bearing down, the Hin surrender. A few diehards still resist and need mopping up. However, their efforts are in vain. By midafternoon, Malfton Proper is under Thyatian control. The Marines in the Prosperity Hill suburb make quick progress in battering down the doors of the fortress. Wave after wave of Marines enter the portal and spread out through the corridors. The initial defense is quickly crushed. However, some of the Hin do barricade themselves in rooms. Doors have to be smashed down and the occupants engaged. Like Malfton Proper, Prosperity Hill suburb is completely occupied by midafternoon. There is some controversy over which service acheived their objective first. The Thyatian Marines claim the honor because they hoisted the Thyatian standard above the fortress's battlements upon entering the fort. The Army awaited in raising their standard as no flag pole is readily at hand. The Army standard was raised just before dusk. In truth, both sides finished mopping up within a half hour of the other. The Marines accomplishing the task first. As night falls, Gen. Nikkos orders his men to stand down and rest. Sentries are posted and guards assigned to watch the captives. He orders his clerics as well as medics to treat both Thyatian and Hin. He orders the Thyatian troops to treat the Hin well as they fought well. Food and water is also dispersed. Nikkos hears that Kimber Nimblefingers is not only a prisoner but is wounded. He goes to the Hin Guild Master and sees to well being of his former adversary. Nikkos spends the night calculating casualties for both sides. He also prepares his report for Adm. Helena. Having spent the day observing the battle from their ships, the crews of the ships cry out in joy as the standards fly over the Hin settlements. This attitude falters slightly as the commander recieves word of the sighting of ships north of Open Island (from Force D). To be careful, Adm. Corso places his fleets on alert. He sends patrols out to seek these ships. Force D- Several lookouts spot ships on the far horizon near the northern tip of Open Island. Pentalon orders them to proceed. He tells his captains that the ships are probably straggling Thadder vessels, despite the reported large numbers. Pentalon tells them to proceed. He says that his force's priority is getting the captured goods back to Thyatis not to mix it up with with the enemy. He does forward the sighting to Force C to Adm. Helena as well as Adm. Corso. Force E- Capt. Ostenphius continues onto Bright Cliff. His small contingent of troops make good headway. On this day, they pass through two fishing villiages. Both are almost deserted, with just a handful of inhabitants left. The captain questions these inhabitants and discovers that the missing villiagers have fled into the surrounding countryside. Ostenphius assures them that his forces will only engage those that engage them. They are soldiers and will make war only upon those that resist them. By nightfall, the small unit beds down for the night. Progress has been good and they should reach Brightcliff within a day or so. With Open Island in sight, Master of Marines Matin Dirkson orders his speech to be read to the troops. "Troops of the MMF, you are about to embark upon a great crusade. A crusade which will decide the fate of the Minrothad Guilds. It is here on Open Island that our forces can deal the Thyatians a defeat. For a defeat here will break the Thyatian assault as their sealane is cut. This vital task lies in your hands. You, "my misguided fellows" as you have aptly named yourselves, will be assigning your names to the annals of history. Never have so few been called upon to assault so many. We are outnumbered in manpower but we are Marines. What we lack in numbers, we make up in skill, honor, and the heart to fight. I know many of you have never cut your teeth in actual combat. As such, you may have some doubts as to your combat worth. This is where the endless training that caused so much grumbling comes into play. Trust the lessons learned in training. If doubt does enter your mind, think of friends and loved ones for that is who you are fighting for. Now, I tell you men and women of the Mercenary Guild to get your things ready and let us drive these Thyatian sons of a bitches off the Hin Island and into the sea. I want you all ready for a fight the second you wade onto the beaches. So lock and load your crossbows. Loosen your blades in their scabbards. Let us show these vermin that the Guildsmen are not ones to mess with." The response of the troops is good. Shouts are heard coming from each of the sailing ships. Even the Privateers and Home Guard units get into the frenzy despite the ommisions of themselves in the speech. By the time of the landing, the troops of Matin's Misguided Fellows (MMF) are ready and willing to fight Thanatos himself. The MMF arrives off the northern tip of Open Island just before dusk. They begin offloading their troops. Ironically, the landing beach is very close to the one used by the Thyatians a few days earlier. So close, that scouts report the days old tracks the Thyatians left in their wake. It is decided that the MMF will follow these tracks . The MMF marches inland well after nightfall. Dirkson hopes that they will come across straggling Thyatians. Finally, they halt to rest for several hours. Minton and his officers know that time is a priority. However, they also know that they cannot press the troops too hard. They will require all of their strength against the Thyatian wall. Minton has to wonder about the staus of the Hin in Malfton. His forces have no means to communicate with the defenders. They have no access to such devices as they are fixed in position onboard the ships. The Minrothad ships sail on from the landing beach and set a course for the mouth of the Quickhand River. They sail around the western coast of Open Island and keep watch for Thyatian ships. The Privateers want to make an immediate strike against the Thyatians. They also voice the want of sending a force to Fire Island to investigate the damage. The Minrothad officers deny them both requests. The Thadder officers are split on the exact manner of attack. None want to take the initiative and suffer any adverse consequenses. Finally one officer steps forward and asserts command. Captain Marco Tinson assumes command. He is experienced and is one of the senior commanders. Warheart Cleaver promotes him to Admiral. With this clear authority, Tinson executes his own orders.He tells the Privateers that they are needed here and now. Unabaited, they continue to protest, even going as far to threaten to mutiny. Tinson is sympathetic to them but is realistic. He allows a small number of Privateers to disembark and sail to Fire Island. The Privateers convene and send a force of one Privateer Fleet to Fire Island. Adm. Tinson was thinking of a force of one or two ships. Still, he allows the force to sail off to prevent a split within his forces. Minrothad City the defenders on the walls sporadically fire missile weapons on the Thyatians. The range favors the Thyatians in this but also keeps them from returning fire. The arrows are wasted, but do manage to offer a means for the beseiged to vent some of their anger and tension. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #200 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, March 30 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 201 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara's size Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:15:59 -0800 From: Joeseph Elric Smith Servant to Arioch Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products great map I look forward to see his other work.ken >Soon Tim ( a good friend of mine, not on the MML, but he can read the posts off our site) will have all of the known world and more up on a site. >Here is a map of Karameikos. >http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/karameikos.gif It is really good. If you take it Please leave the 'by Tim Roberts' on it. He put a lot of time into it. Yes it was made by CC2. I would advise anyone to buy it. I am all Mac so the PC program runs slow on my machine. >Here is his world map with GrewHawk and Faerun http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/ergoth3.gif >Patriarch >mailto:Patriarch@cmnwrld.com >Where I net game http://CWSpot.com/ >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:04:07 +0100 From: "Alan Jones" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size The 'Peter's Projection' I believe is what you are referring to. It shows area accurately but distorts direction. - -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Levy To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: 29 March 1998 09:51 Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara's Size >also true. somewhere i once saw a "politically correct" world map which was projected such that the countries near the equator retained their realistic size relative to the countries nearer the poles (though it distorted shape somewhat) ... it showed how tiny europe really is and how much the conventional maps distort the relative size of the continents in favor of the northern industrialized countries at the expense of the southern "third world" countries. kind of interesting when you think about it. >m@2 >"You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" >- said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... >On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, JamugaKhan wrote: >><< have you ever looked at how tiny >>greenland is comparatively on a real globe as compared to a flat map? >>peace, >>m@2 >> >>Likewise Russia and Canada are smaller (but they are the two greatest nonetheless). >>Jamuga Khan >>"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** TTTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >>'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:36:47 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) In a message dated 98-03-29 05:17:04 EST, mlevy@orion.oac.uci.edu writes: >I like it! In general I find that equipping is the most pointlessly time cconsuming part of the character generation process ... people spend too much energy trying to minmax their gp spending. i like the system you've got better. i think i may adapt some version for mystara .. any tips? If you can track down "Swordbearer" itself, you could use it directly with little conversion -- it does assume a society very similar to that used in most D&D campaigns, including Mystara. If you can't do that, then the best option is to create a social scale and assign various items of equipment according to that scale. For example, a shield would be fairly low on the scale -- even primitive savages can usually get their hands on one, so the decision about whether to use it really depends on what weapons the character is carrying. Armor is easily ranked -- plate mail and better should be reserved for nobles, while leather armor could be allowed to anyone for whom even basic weapons are not allowed. FFrom what I have seen in most of the gazetteers, most weapons should be fairly cheap (that is, available at low social status). But you might want to make certain magical weapons require a certain social status -- certainly the very best magical weapons would be reserved for knights or better. The one sort of weapon likely to cause problems would be the weird, expensive kind -- firearms in particular. Such a weapon would be very expensive, but no noble would be willing to touch it, so assigning a social status to it would be tricky at best. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:23:58 +0100 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology RLaRue did thus wisely proclaim... >Leroy's idea is pretty much what I came up with some minor differences, such as the origin of the Old Ones. And you ideas are? I love to see different perspectives. >I really like how he explains the origin of the Immortals that have the same names as some "true" Gods. (Leroy, if you >don't mind, I may use some version of that for my campaign.) Feel free. >I think Leroy put it all together in a logical and intelligent way. Well done. Thanks for the good word. Nice to get some positive feedback. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #4253672 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:51:59 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - non-combatant humans (merchants etc.) On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Kaviyd wrote: very interesting stuff once again! my suspicion however is that for really cool "feel" it would need to be customized by nation-state (Mystara being pretty varied in social structure and tech level). For instance, "primitive savages" such as the Tegor of the Thanegioths would not be on the same scale as Karameikans or Thyatins, because their whole social base would be different. For them, status might be marked by elaborate stone-age jewelry or costuming, or magical fetish objects of the type shamans can manufacture ... likewise in Ethengar number of horses owned would be a hugely important factor, in Alphatia it might just be that almost everybody has at least one magic item. In Darokin people would rate themselves by cash and investments rather than any particular items carried ... Glantri would probably be so complex (including all the nuances of the various mini-nations there) that it scares me; really interesting would be the Atruaghins, who are based on Native Americans but who have existed near Darokin's quasi-renaissance european culture for a long time and thus probably have access to all kinds of manufactured goods and especially steel weapons. firearms (in most campaigns) would be confined to the savage coast, where they would probably be fairly accessible even to low-status rogue types (it being a fairly lawless "frontier" area). actually there's a lot of dispersed info (especially in the GAZ series) about the tech level and common items of various countries, but I wonder if anyone has ever really sat down and figured it all out ... the Minrothad and Darokin trade maps (which show where things are produced and consumed, indirectly through price differentials) would help a lot for this. Maybe someday soon that's ANOTHER project I will add to my list. peace, m@2 >If you can track down "Swordbearer" itself, you could use it directly with little conversion -- it does assume a society very similar to that used in most D&D campaigns, including Mystara. If you can't do that, then the best option is to create a social scale and assign various items of equipment according to that scale. For example, a shield would be fairly low on the scale -- even primitive savages can usually get their hands on one, so the decision about whether to use it really depends on what weapons the character is carrying. Armor is easily ranked -- plate mail and better should be reserved for nobles, while leather armor could be allowed to anyone for whom even basic weapons are not allowed. FFFrom what I have seen in most of the gazetteers, most weapons should bbe fairly cheap (that is, available at low social status). But you might want to make certain magical weapons require a certain social status -- certainly the very best magical weapons would be reserved for knights or better. The one sort of weapon likely to cause problems would be the weird, expensive kind -- firearms in particular. Such a weapon would be very expensive, but no noble would be willing to touch it, so assigning a social status to it would be tricky at best. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:20:30 -0500 From: Derek Harmon Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products Patriarch wrote: >Soon Tim ( a good friend of mine, not on the MML, but he can read the posts off our site) will have all of the known world and more up on a site. >Here is a map of Karameikos. >http://CWSpot.com/mystara/tinman/karameikos.gif It definately looks nice, except for some of the labels. Some of the labels (in black text) on the dense forest or mountains is very hard to make out because of the poor contrast. If you could pass along some advice to your friend, it would look much better if the text were bold white (when on these dark and noisy backgrounds) or if he could adjust the trees to be a paler green with a light green outline, and the mountains a paler brown.. then the text would stand out better. Adding an outline (white outline for black text, etc.) would also make them easier to read. Myself, I use CorelDraw and CorelPHOTO-Paint for maps; tho most of the ones I've done are for other worlds. Nothing beats an old TSR trail map style map you can poster the walls with. 3:)> Really, I think their old maps were better. I recently picked up Kingdom of Karameikos, and the "new-fangled" maps in there didn't look as good (I think it was the "levitating" continental shelf). -- Stonelight *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:36:02 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador >ok, now i've found your actual message, Geoff. Does PC3 really say it was an Elven City? Yup - this is the story according to Triton sages, and they've been in the area for quite some time. Mind you, it says they THINK it was an elven city, which is enough for me! :) Also, both X7 and PC3 say it has been underwater for centuries, not thousands of years - as I'm sure they would have distinguished - it's just the impression I'm getting here. If it sank with Taymor c. BC 2000 (3000 years ago!), then it wouldn't be accurate to say it happened "centuries ago". I thought for sure it was Taymoran. But then I'm not sure what the relationship between the Taymorans and the Sea Elves was exactly. Not sure either. IMO the aquatic elves probably didn't deal much with them. BTW - interesting snippet from PC3 is that some Taymorans who survived in southern Karameikos were later absorbed by the Traldar..... Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:49:03 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun In a message dated 98-03-29 03:50:14 EST, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: >I don't like it and I would prefer to place Oerth or Faerun in the ssame solar system as Mystara. Let's see -- same solar system but separate planets? That could be a bit awkward for my tastes -- unless spelljamming is a lost art on all three planets. But haven't all three solar systems been detailed already? Two in Spelljammer supplements and one (Mystara's) in the gold box Immortals' game. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:16:43 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take Hello everyone, As promised yesterday, here is my suggestion for how to detail Colhador: As I mentioned yesterday, PC3 (The Sea People) mentions Colhador only once, where it is described as having been an elvish city built upon an island, that sank centuries ago. X7 (War Rafts of Kron), on the other hand, says only that Colhador was inhabited by "air breathers", and the city sank several centuries ago. Also, Colhador is inhabited by Hadric the velya (an aquatic vampire), who, it is revealed, was in life a member of the royal family of the city. Generally speaking (though I oculd be wrong), most vampires were originally human. I say this from the adventures I've read, and so on. Now, before I come forth with my idea, let's go over one point: Both descriptions mention that the city has been underwater for centuries, and not millennia. PC3 says that the Taymoran Empire was destroyed in the earthquakes of BC 2000 (tip of the hat to you, Andrew, you were right), which was 3000 years ago. IMO, an event that happened that far back did not happen "centuries ago". Given how long the Tritons, Merrow, Aquatic elves, and others have been living there, I can't see any way they could be that inaccurate. With this in mind, I decided that it would be really neat to combine both accounts together, such that they would be both correct. My theory is this: The original inhabitants of Colhador (which was built upon an island off the old coast of SE Brun, and was further isolated after BC 2000) were a branch of the Meditors, who were then eventually conquered by humans. It is this group of humans that gave rise to Hadric. Hoe would this shape up in a timeline? Read on! Side note: The names given below all come from X7, where the royal succession of Colhador is given, I have only estimated the length of their reign, and the identity of one individual, who will be noted. Suggested timeline for Colhador: BC 2100: The Meditor and Verdier clans settle in southeastern Brun (HW boxed set), but one branch of the Meditor clan sails to a small, forested island just off the southern coast. There they build their home, which they name "Kal-Handir". The island is also given this name. BC 2000: Great earthquakes shatter the southeastern coast of Brun, destroying much of the Taymoran Empire, which sinks beneath the sea. Several large land masses remain offshore, and Kal-Handir is miraculously untouched (modified PC3). BC 1720: More earthquakes further fragment the offshore land masses, creating the Ierendi and Minrothad islands (PC3). Remnants of the Taymorans, devastated by the continued destruction of what remains of their homes, attempt to conquer Kal-Handir, which has weathered the geologic upheavals intact. They are driven off by the elves. BC 1300: By this time a healthy trading relationship exists between Kal-Handir and the elves of Minrothad. Apart from this, the Kal-Handir elves shun contact with outsiders. BC 1000: A Nithian exploratory force is destroyed after it voyages too close to the island. Elsewhere on the planet, the Alphatians make landfall (just about any source). BC 515: On Belissaria, a tribe of Yanifey, led by Ythol, their chieftain, decide to flee for better lands as the Alphatians continue to advance. He has his clan build great sailing ships, and they set sail westwards. Within weeks, they come across Kal-Handir. The elves refuse to let them land on the island, so the Yanifey decide to take it by force. Luck is with Ythol as his people manage, against all odds, to defeat the slightly less numerous elves. Some elves manage to flee to the Minrothad isles, where they settle amongst their fellow Meditors. Ythol is made king. Unable to pronounce the elvish name properly, he calls it "Colhador". BC 501: Ythim, eldest son of Ythol, is crowned after his father's death. BC 472: Saloc assumes the throne. BC 459: Hadlid begins his reign. BC 410: Rikor assumes the throne. BC 383: Gorlab becomes king. BC 354: Hador is king. His reign is far more illustrious than those of his predecessors. BC 339: Kordic takes power. BC 329: Hadric, the first son of Kordic, is born. BC 327: Meric, the second son of Kordic, is born (I have invented this name, as there is a person who wrote an ancient message that the PCs uncover, and the unknown writer refers to himself as the brother of Hadric). BC 294: Through the practice of secret rites, Hadric becomes a velya. BC 289: In a quake of tremendous power, Colhador sinks into the sea. A large section of the sunken city falls into a large crevasse (modified X7). Hadric, in hiding for several years underwater, moves into the sunken city and begins to build up an army of undead, and he alters the ruins to his liking. AC 1000: Possible date for the staging of X7. Notes: First, the geneology is partially of my own creation. Several individuals are described in X7 as being the son of a certaiample, no direct link between Ythim and Saloc - I extrapolated this to make a consistent line of succession. Second, X7 contradicts itself. On page 26, the note describes Hadric as the son of Kordic, yet page 28 says he is the son of Hador. I decided that the reference to being the son of Hador might have been to confuse people - while the reference in the note would have been correct - it was written by his brother. Anyhow, hope this clears things up, and that you enjoyed it! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:20:19 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Here is one possibility -- maybe all four elements did have their proponents among the Alphatians. However, the Earth Mages were the weakest and were destroyed very early in the civil war on Old Alphatia -- after all, the destruction of Old Alphatia would not have been possible if Earth Magic remained strong. The Water Mages were the next weakest, but they managed to lay low during the war. Eventually they were the only ones left in Old Alphatia, after the Air and Fire Mages left or were banished. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:29:06 +1000 (EST) From: s9406058@student.anu.edu.au (stan) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara's size Derek Harmon wrote: >stan wrote: >>>From: Derek Harmon DDDDave Keyser wrote: >>>>The only thing this changes is the shape of the planet. It now looks mmmore >>>>elliptical, like an egg rather than a sphere. The world-shield provides ttthe >>>>gravity which hold Mystara together, so it can hold the planet in that shape. >: : >>>Well, in a fantasy sort of way that might work. But if you're wwwilling >>>to throw aside physics, why concern yourself with a math problem in the fffirst >>>place? 3;)> >: >>Like the Earth is spherical in the first place - sorry to tell you guys but it's more elliptical than spherical, so now Mystara is too. >Well, to be perfectly technical, its an oblate spheroid. However, it is flatter on the poles for a physical reason, because it rotates on its axis. That flattens the poles and bulges the equator. >Now, if it spun north-to-south -- then it would look oblong. 3:)> Well yes and no ... OK, no. AFAIK, and I've only studied geology mind you and not studied the phenomenon first hand, the Earth is an oblate spheroid because of Antarctica - if you look at a picture of the the shape of the Earth it is flatter on this end. The reason for this being twofold. Firstly Antarctica has been in pretty much its present position for a long time geologically speaking. Also there's the ice which is sitting on Antarctica which although not having been there for terribly long at all, about 35 Ka, it still plays a part - our Sweedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Dutch etc people should now all about ice, isostatic rebound and the problems this can cause. What this means is that there doesn't seem to be a real-world-scientific solution to why Mystara would not be spherical. Now I know that Mystara is a fantasy world but my being learned in such things means I like to try and find a real-world solution first rather than coping out with a fantasy one. Matthew Levy wrote: >also true. somewhere i once saw a "politically correct" world map which was projected such that the countries near the equator retained their realistic size relative to the countries nearer the poles (though it distorted shape somewhat) ... Well the most politically correct map I've probably seen is one with a projection as you describe but which shows all the countries which would by convention appear upside down. Concepts such as north and south have no real meaning in space. It's fair enough to draw a map such that the axis of the drawn map matches fairly closely the axis on which the planet spins but to assume that just because the current magnetic field of the planet says that north is north (not that these concepts mean anything) then maps should be drawn thusly. >it showed how tiny europe really is and how much the conventional maps distort the relative size of the continents in favor of the northern industrialized countries at the expense of the southern "third world" countries. kind of interesting when you think about it. And even some of those not-quite-so-"third world"-southern-countries where ever they may be. I'm not trying to be nasty to anyone by saying these things I'm just putting forth valid antipodean views. The fact that I've studied such things may make a little more vocal than I should be in such a medium. Sorry Leroy. Shawn Stanley http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:35:07 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take really interesting stuff Geoff! I like it! (also like the touch of Ythol being from Bellissaria - always suspected there were Yannifey there but wasn't sure. btw IMC there are also Xvarts [blue magic using goblins] who have evolved in bellissaria but nowhere else - and another thing - have you thought about the relationship between the bellissarians, ochaleans, colhadorians, and honor islanders? - remember the honor islanders come from bellissaria most likely, as do possibly the ochaleans - when do the honor islanders get to ierendi? and aren't their numerous goblin slaves evidence of the humanoid presence on bellissaria that i've just postulated?) i am sure knowing your devious mind that there is some lhomarrian connection also via the splinter groups who settled amongst the yanifey. another question: considering the time period for ythol's descendants, isn't it very likely they would have been intereacting with the Doulakki (and especially the Traldar, who had absorbed the remnants of the Taymorans, as you point out) as well as the Meditors? Perhaps my search for an M-Phoenicia/Carthage is solved!!! Arkenas the Alphatian could have come among the Colhadorians for a while (are there any queens in the monarch sequence you gave?) before going to Tuma - culturally it would have been an easier choice even though the Yanifey were enemies of alphatia - they still would have been more familiar than the doulakki at this point. perhaps the language of colhador could have been a mix of ancient lhomarrian, yanifey-bellisarian, water elf, and the offshoots of taymoran which survived the catastrophe of 2000 BC (much as carthage survived the multiple conquests of the phoenician homeland in modern day lebanon). anyway jsut some more troublesome thoughts as always. later, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:33:41 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Colhador - my take >really interesting stuff Geoff! I like it! (also like the touch of Ythol being from Bellissaria - always suspected there were Yannifey there but wasn't sure. btw IMC there are also Xvarts [blue magic using goblins] who have evolved in bellissaria but nowhere else - and another thing - have you thought about the relationship between the bellissarians, ochaleans, colhadorians, and honor islanders? - remember the honor islanders come from bellissaria most likely, as do possibly the ochaleans - when do the honor islanders get to ierendi? Not offhand. I'd have to check out GAZ 4. >and aren't their numerous goblin slaves evidence of the humanoid presence on bellissaria that i've just postulated?) More than likely, I'd say. >i am sure knowing your devious mind that there is some lhomarrian connection also via the splinter groups who settled amongst the yanifey. Well, there is!!! :-) Given that IMO all modern Yanifey are descended from the original Neathar inhabitants, and that these original inhabitants mixed with the northward-migrating branch of the Lhomarrians (and absorbed it). So, yes, you're right. You know me too well. :-) >another question: considering the time period for ythol's descendants, isn't it very likely they would have been intereacting with the Doulakki (and especially the Traldar, who had absorbed the remnants of the Taymorans, as you point out) as well as the Meditors? This is entirely possible. Mind you that this is only a preliminary work thus far. In all likelihood, the Meditors would have studiously avoided contact, given the tales of their brethren who fled the island. It's more than likely that Colhadorian ships sailing north would have been attacked. The Doulakki could easily have traded with them, and likely did. >Perhaps my search for an M-Phoenicia/Carthage is solved!!! Arkenas the Alphatian could have come among the Colhadorians for a while (are there any queens in the monarch sequence you gave?) Alum is listed as being the wife of Rikor, and Loral is given as the wife of Hador. >before going to Tuma - culturally it would have been an easier choice even though the Yanifey were enemies of alphatia - they still would have been more familiar than the doulakki at this point. perhaps the language of colhador could have been a mix of ancient lhomarrian, yanifey-bellisarian, water elf, and the offshoots of taymoran which survived the catastrophe of 2000 BC (much as carthage survived the multiple conquests of the phoenician homeland in modern day lebanon). anyway jsut some more troublesome thoughts as always. later, > Hmm. This is interesting! Let me suggest that Colhador should be our M-Carthage, then! Definitely the language would have peppered with loan words (anythig is possible, though the probability leans towards Lhomarrian (a given), Yanifey (also a given), Meditor dialect (some words). Perhaps some Taymoran, but only if they came across some stragglers on the way west. IMO, the Yanifey tongue is about 85% indigenous Alphatian-Neathar dialects, and roughly 15% bastardized Lhomarrian loan-words. Anyone who speaks Lhomarrian might get a half INT check to understand what a modern Yanifey was saying. Of course, when the two peoples first mixed, the more advanced Lhomarrians found their words used for more technical, and "new", things - so the ratio may have been more like 60-40 Native-Lhomarrian. I figure millennia of evolution and mixing with Alphatians, and other cultures, must have changed some things. I look forward to hearing your response! :) Geoff (who's very tired right now...) - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:03:52 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Maps and a Map-Based Index of Mystara Products On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: >That remidns me, has anyone here ever used Campaign Cartographer to generate maps of Mystara, and if so, are they available on a site somewhere? I am thinking of purchasing CC2, (having heard it is much better than CC1, which I have seen), for the primary purpose of mapping Mystara, and would like to see if nayone else has had decent results. I did some Mystaran maps (both player and DM) with CC1. I will post them on my website sometime this week. I'll send a note to the list when I do. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:10:44 +0200 From: Lille My Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara At 18:35 27-03-98 +0100, Håvard wrote: >I was thinking that they could take the water from somewhere in the sea of Dread. Ofcourse this could affect the Island Kingdoms.. Any thoughts? I guess it would dry out some of the islands, leaving them a bit more dry, but it depends on how they intend to take the water. If the elves increase the heat in the area they might create that weather phenomena called El Nino (or something), a phenomena that occurs every 3 or 7 years and greatly affects local enviroment with storms, flood and droughts. A heat increase might turn the Ierendi kingdoms more tropical, but also dry out some of the jungles. Perhaps ancient lizard men once again will emerge with the increased temperatures? >Seen the Kingdom2 yet by the way? Oh yes I have. It's quite interesting. It is a close follow up on the first Kingdom, but it changes its style somewhat making it different. Won't say too much. Lille My *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #201 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, March 31 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 202 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara's size [MYSTARA] - New books Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology [MYSTARA] - Adventure Hook:{was: Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology} Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar [MYSTARA] - Silver Hearth [MYSTARA] - CC maps Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:31:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Levy Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Size of Mystara speaking of el nino, i was just thinking about how in my old mystara campaign (the one that makes my head hurt now when i try to fit it into canon history) i had a whole sequence of events surrounding freak weather caused by an imbalance in the elemental planes. after a huge war (similar to WotI) in which Alphatia and Ierendi defeated Thyatis and Darokin (with Glantri and Karameikos torn in two by the fighting), there was incredible amounts of rain extending even into the winter months, with flooding around the world but especially along the streel, and hurricanes and typhoons at unusual times (darokin city got almost wiped out by a storm) ... eventually a great hero (Baron Marcus Robert Dunn, who now has a fort near Haven in the Dymrak forest) had to go to the great whirlpool near Frosthaven, where he discovered an invasion from the elemental plane of water was causing all the disturbances. with a lot of powerful magic items and sheer brute force, he defeated the water elemental king (urzulblagi the something or other) in single combat and shut the gate. this in turn caused the late arrival of winter weather in the spring months (beginning in late february-early march) but the weather patterns eventually stabilized within a few years. now that i think about it if i had known about el nino then it would have been exactly the sort of inspiration i would have gotten from it. or something. peace y'all, m@2 "You're not really in love with yourself - you're just in love with the idea of being in love with yourself" - said to me by one of the two little fellas who hang out on either of my shoulders ... I can't remember which ... On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Lille My wrote: >At 18:35 27-03-98 +0100, Håvard wrote: >>I was thinking that they could take the water from somewhere in the sea of Dread. Ofcourse this could affect the Island Kingdoms.. Any thoughts? >I guess it would dry out some of the islands, leaving them a bit more dry, but it depends on how they intend to take the water. If the elves increase the heat in the area they might create that weather phenomena called El Nino (or something), a phenomena that occurs every 3 or 7 years and greatly affects local enviroment with storms, flood and droughts. A heat increase might turn the Ierendi kingdoms more tropical, but also dry out some of the jungles. Perhaps ancient lizard men once again will emerge with the increased temperatures? >>Seen the Kingdom2 yet by the way? >Oh yes I have. It's quite interesting. It is a close follow up on the first Kingdom, but it changes its style somewhat making it different. Won't say too much. >Lille My >*************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:35:33 EST From: Mystaros Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar In a message dated 98-03-27 19:37:53 EST, you write: << Well, i don't think they are.>> Neither do I. IIRC, I mentioned in my History of Blackmoor of the settling of the New Paradise Islands (the modern Alatians) by outcast Thonians in the early 34th century BC. This colony went on to become a haven for vacationers during the height of the Blackmoor era. The population was a mix - the great majority (80%+) was of Oltec/Azcan/Neathar slave origin, while a portion was descended from the Thonian colonists (~20%). After the GRoF, the population mixed freely and evolved, over a period of a thousand years, into the Makai, a stone-age group that owed it's genes and much of it's culture mostly to Oltecs and Azcans but most of it's language to the Thonians (who were originally a Neathar/Tangori mix, though the Blackmoorians tended toward a Thonian/Neathar ethnic structure). Thus, as the Thonian language was mostly of Neathar descent, and the subsequent Makai language was of Thonian descent, modern Mystaran linguists mistakenly placed the Makai among the Neathar macro- cultural group rather than among the Oltec/Neather sub-group. <> The Oltecs were in the majority, though shattered by the GRoF. The Azans maintained much more of their unity, and were able to continue their genocidal crusade against the Oltecs after the majority of the populace died in the GRoF (or was transported to the HW). Eventually, the Azcans were able to destroy the last remnants of the "Classical" Oltecs before themselves falling into savagery... <> The Antalians and numerous other minor Neathar groups (including the Urduks) flooded into the Known World region circa 2400 BC, when their ancient homeland was first invaded by the Beastmen who founded Urzud. << The Ethengars, an Azcan/Neathar (Antalian?) mix, lived in the grasslands around the canolbarth/Ethngar area (recall there was still glacial activity in the north).>> IMC, the Ethengars are almost entirely descended from the Slave caste of the Taymoran Empire, which was primarilly of Oltec/Azcan descent (though there were some Neathar represented as well). They moved into thmodern Ethengar Steppes upon the fall of the Taymoran Empire in 2000 BC. << The Nithians arose along the river Nithia, supposedly an Azcan/Neathar mix (I say they were more likely a mix of Tanagoro colonists fleeing westwards- cf. the Pearl Islands- and Antalian peoples, with some Azcan thrown in for good measure). Check out my take on the History of the Nithian Empire for my take on this subject... I'm pretty sure it's on Shawn Stanley's site. Never got the chance to put it on my own... <> with the Beastmen to the west << North KW- Ethengarians>> some in the plains where stands the modern Canolbarth, most in the modern Ethengar Steppes << Western and Central KW- Azcan folk; Urduks to the far west; Malpheggi lizard men in the swamp.>> IMC, the Azcans are still very limited in the west (and shattered as well, as their first plateau just fell in the great earthquakes. The ?Urduks have been in the Great Waste for some four centuries. The Malpheggi Swamps are, as yet, unformed (they form over several centuries; remember, the lands of the modern Malpheggi were dry land, far from the sea, until the fall of the coastlands into the Sea of Dread). The Lizard Men won't come into the picture IMC until the rise of the power of Set on the Isle of Serpents from 1950 through 1700 BC. << Eastern KW- Nithians>> Did not exist as such as yet IMC. Most of the population of the region was of Oltec and Neathar extraction, as these peoples formed the bulk of the slaves and serfs that had been held by the Taymorans for a thousand years; the few surviving Taymorans were absorbed into the developing Nithian ethnicity over the next three centuries. <> I will eventually get around to completing my History of the Taymorna Empire as well as a gazetteer of the region that details it in full for the period 3000 through 2000 BC. Once I do I will post it to the list to be dissected as thoroughly as any other historical document... :) << The southern coasts drop off in 2000 BC, shattering the Taymoran civilization, ... In 1750 BC, another cataclysm breaks chunks off the Five Shires and Atruaghin shores, stranding the Makai and lizardmen. Where did the Makai suddenly come from? My hypothesis is that they were not Neathar folk, but rather remnants of the Taymoran Empire that had intermingled with the Azcan folk to the west, though maintaining much of their Taymoran heritage in legends and myths. (You could even make an argument for the Taymoran Necromancy of Mystaros' timeline based on this- the Makai have certain known necromantic practices). Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. Anyway, what do the rest of you think? ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One >> Well, here's how it all works out in my campaign history: the first, major cataclysm ocured in 2000 BC (caused by the Taymoran Civil War IMC). This dropped most of the southern lands of the Known World into the Sea of Dread, and left several islands, including the modern Minrothad Isles and a rather large isle that included what is today the Isles of Ierendi. This was the Isle of the Serpent, conquered by Set in 1950 BC (the few primitive tribes that lived on the island were easily cowed by him and his followers). He needed a larger population base to develop his new land (and build his monumens and serve in his fields and so on)... so he turned to his allies, the Serpentines of the Southern Continent, and they told him of an island of primitives in the eastern seas, a people who lived in peace and harmony... a people who were easily conquered and enslaved... the Makai. Using Lizardmen Legions provided by the Serpentines, Set conquered the Paradise Islands and brought a large number of the surviving Makai to the Isle of the Serpent, where he forced them into slavery for 300 years. They mixed somewhat with the native tribes, but maintained the majority of their culture. They remained thus until 1700 BC, when the Isle of the Serpent was destroyed in a great cataclysm caused by the Elven Folly in the modern Broken Lands. The power of Set had already been destroyed several months prior by the forces of Nithia, and the shattered remnants of the Lizardmen Legions were never able to regain control of the Makai population. Thus, the Makai were allowed to develop on their own, and returned to their ancient folkways. IMC, the Makai of the Ierendi Isles were absorbed into the Traldar population that settled the region in the 15th through 12th centuries BC, and little of the Makai culture remains on Ierendi in modern Mystara, though some place names and a more relaxed atmosphere do continue to dominate (Ierendi is rather different IMC). The Makai also inhabited the Pearl Islands and several of the Isles of Dread, though they were absorbed by the Nuar in 1000 BC on the Pearl Islands and absorbed into the native Oltec populations of the Isles of Dread. The Alatian Islands, once the ur-home of the Makai, were conquered by Traldar in 1000 BC, and while much of the Makai culture survived assimilation (much more than in the case of Ierendi), the Makai no longer exist as such on the surface of Mystara; they are today found only in the Hollow World. There are two major cases where Makai cultural ways live on in the majority of their form on the surface world. The greatest is, of course, in the ocean- going nomads of the Sea of Steam, who have adopted many of the local cultures and are no longer Makai as such; the other is in the bastardized culture of the Kara-kara, a Beastmen folk who were slaves of Set at the same time as the Makai. The Kara-kara adopted many of the Makai folkways and continue to live as the Makai did milennia ago, with the addition of the bestial aspects of Beastmen culture. The Kara-kara can be found throughout the Sea of Dread, from the Serpent Peneinsula in the west to the minor isles east of the Alatian Islands... some clans and tribes have migrated into the siland chains of the Izondian Deep, but they are not well settled in that region by any means... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:54:27 EST From: JamugaKhan Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Map of MYSTARA/GreyHawk/Faerun << But haven't all three solar systems been detailed already? Two in Spelljammer supplements and one (Mystara's) in the gold box Immortals' game. >> Yes, but I don't have them. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:58:42 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Mystara's size Stan Wrote >>Now, if it spun north-to-south -- then it would look oblong. No, you get a Uranus affect, where everything get colder everywhere but an area where you'd get an eastern pole where it's tropical from six to a planetary year, or in mystara's place, a planet that's Glacial on the outside and tropical on the Inside. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:23:44 -0300 From: edu@giga.com.ar Subject: [MYSTARA] - New books Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just recieved some stuff of D&D and I wonder if anybody can help me with the new information. I mean, couse I'm from Argentina and my english is not very well, if anybody can tell me of each book that I'll detail in the following list: Gazteer 2, The Emirates Of Ylaruam (please write all you can to help understand the maps and the information). Creature Crucible: Top Ballista Creature Crucible: The Sea People Creature Crucible: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk Thanks, Jonathan Leibiusky edu@giga.com.ar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:30:40 EST From: Kaviyd Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology In a message dated 98-03-28 20:07:34 EST, galwylin@airnet.net writes: >Just one question. If these all are subject to the same 'physics' as MMystara, why not place them in the same dimension? The Alphatians, d'Ambrevilles, McGregors from another planet; the Beagle from another time; the Old Ones original gods. Does that screw with Mystara lore too much? I'm tired and don't feel like looking all that up Going by published material, the Alphatians are indeed from a different plane in the same dimension as Mystara. The world of Laterre (where the d'Ambrevilles and McGregors came from) is in a separate dimension, the dimension of Myth -- this dimension might possibly be identified with the setting of the Historical Reference AD&D series, but this point has not been definitely stated in any "canonical" source. The Beagle does seem to have come from another dimension -- note that the functioning of its engine changed permanently once it got near Mystara, apparently via some sort of dimensional rift, as is stated in later "canonical" sources. As for the Old Ones -- the existing material about them is vague enough that they could be whatever you want them to be. BTW, I rather dislike the idea of having two official Mystaras -- as near as I can tell, the D&D and AD&D material were both meant to be set in the same universe, and there is no evidence that the dramatic changes caused by the events of WotI are sufficient to explain the shift in the rules used. My suggestion is that Mystara operates by its own rules, which have not yet been thoroughly documented and written down -- all existing rules descriptions, whether D&D or AD&D, are imperfect attempts to describe that world. As evidence, I point to the fact that the D&D and AD&D material were each able to explain some things that made no sense under the other set of rules. However, Mystara really fits into those rule set no better than Athas and Ravenloft fit into the standard AD&D universe -- both settings required numerous "world specific" rules. My contention is that Mystara requires similar rules, but nobody has yet gotten around to writing them all down. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:32:28 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:56:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f From: (mystara-digest) To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #202 Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com X-UIDL: d0da1213af042eb716c9bf94fd066278 >RLaRue wrote: >Leroy's idea is pretty much what I came up with some minor differences, such as the origin of the Old Ones. I really like how he explains the origin of the Immortals that have the same names as some "true" Gods. How about i Give you my take on this one, If you Read the Diamond Trilogy book one: Dragonlord of Mystara, Sir George mentions the Immortals of the Northern Reaches as Deities which defines them as gods not immortals, in a sense. if you read the planescape portion where a gods powers is weaker depending on how many planes it is from his home plane, i guess that the case with Mystara Planes, where it so far removed from the Ysgard that it powers it grants to priest is toned down to an immortal level, and that the ones meeting with the immortals in Pandius, might actually Avatars of themselves, how does this fit in with your question on immortals with the same name as Deities, Larue,... Van Camp? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:15:07 PST From: "George Valencia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Adventure Hook:{was: Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology} Rick wrote: >Right now that PCs are trying to help a Rogue Modron find it's way back to >Mechanus and eventually find their own way home to Mystara. Only two of the >original five PCs made it through the last adventure, so there are three new >"plane lost" PCs. I've tried to set up a quest designed to return them all to >where they most want to be (which is different for each of them). They popped >in near Silvania (gate town to Olympus) and are now adventuring with a band of >Greeks who are trying to be the epitome of Olympian perfection. The leader of >the Greeks has been poisoned by the snakes of a Medusa and has turned leadership over to one of the PCs. The PCs have to find a cure for him, or >they're stuck with a bunch of "heroic" Greeks following them around. Of >course the recipe to the only know cure is held by a Minotaur at the center of >a maze-like prison made by the gods to punish him for claiming to "hold more >knowledge then the gods themselves". Once this is done, the PCs will have to >journey through the planes searching out the parts to an artifact that will >allow them to return home. Cliche', but I think it'll be lots of fun. I hope >to tie the challenges to the essence of the plane's alignment and force the >players to understand the plane before they can complete the challenge. I >want to avoid a "kill your way across the planes" sorta campaign. If anyone >has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Place the parts in the planes of Limbo(where it's truely chaotic,) Mechanus(Fighting hardly happens there too much order), the Wild lands where the beasts like Lions, Eagles, and even ants have the ability to talk for an alice in wonderland type of adventure, and for their reward for thinking their way through those three area, a battle royale in the a Plane of the abyss, after trying to save their Sanity in the Plane of Pandemonium. these should help in making a mega module for your adventure, tell me if you like the idea, if so visit my website on the mystara Webring called Mystara Online. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:49:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: >It depends on what idea you follow concerning Taymoran origins. Personally, the Thonian connection is possible, and given what Matt Levy and I have discussed privately on Thonians and their possible origins and makeup, this could be interesting (eh, Matt!). True, which is the main reason I went with that theory, as I know Matt had proposed it before. >Personally I see them as a Neathar/Oltec cross, who originated along the coasts of Skothar (or maybe in old Thonia - Thonian/Peshwa cross), and thus might be related to the modern Jennites. Definitely possible, but I'm wary of all these Neathar/Oltec crosses (Nithians, Ethengarians), in such a small region, if only due to the disparate physical descriptions of races that supposedly come from the same cross. >>The southern coasts drop off in 2000 BC, shattering the TTaymoran civilization, and stranding the elves in the Minrothad islands. >You sure about this? I thought the big quake was BC 1750, which blasted the Taymorans and stranded the elves/proto-Makai/lizard men. Hmm, I'll check PC3 to be sure, but for some reason that date stands out. Anyhow, I could be wrong, but I'm just asking :) There's two of them. 2000 is the one that breaks off the Minrothad Isles; 1750 breaks off Ierendi. Note there is a discrepancy in some places about the dates- notably, PC3 has the 1750 date as 1720 instead. >>Of course, the entire Makai population didn't just drop off into the Ierendi Isles, but remained in the Darokin region, and likely still have strong cultural roots in the southern Darokin area. >Where they could have been absorbed by Doulakki/Eastwind clan humans, etc. Quite probably. >I think this bears further investigation, my esteemed fellow M-historian! I have long felt that the Makai are more Polynesian than anything else. What you suggest is as clear an explanation as anything else for how these people got to where they are. I agree with the sentiment; there seems to be a discrepancy on exactly what sort of culture they represent- some places they seem very Polynesian, others more Haitian. Basically, I'm just trying to fill out some of the scant 'prehistorical' information in the region, and noticed that. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:24:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Makai Not Neathar On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Matthew Levy wrote: >does it say in the HW or GAZ 14 specifically where the Azcan and Oltec empires were and the relative size of each? I got the impression the Azcans were really a much smaller but more militant group. They were, intially. They were lowland Oltecs, who were conquered by the Oltec Empire. Eventually they revolted (3500 BC or so), and, given that they nearly decimated the Oltecs, I'd say their own lands, at their height, rivaled that of the Oltecs themselves. The Oltecs covered the region of the Great Plain of Fire when it was still forest, then fled westwards (and perhaps east and south) when the forest was destroyed. Given the size of the GPoF, not to mention the Sind region (which they also inhabited), I'd say the Oltec peoples were a widespread and probably very porlific race. >The Nithians arose along the river >>Nithia, supposedly an Azcan/Neathar mix (I say they were more likely a mix of Tanagoro colonists fleeing westwards- cf. the Pearl Islands- and Antalian peoples, with some Azcan thrown in for good measure). >why do you figure tanagoro? (just curious) ... i tend to use linguistic clues on things like this, which means the Nithians are most closely related to the Taymorans, Alasiyans, and the Enduk-derivative civilizations of the SC. i think there may have been herathian contact with Nithia. Just based on the premise that real world Egyptians were very closely related to the African peoples (one that, I admit, I don't know has any real basis in fact. It seems to me it does, and at the same time I'm not entirely sure. I'll have to recehck.) >is there an official date on when the urduks got to the desert? i would guess that culturally and linguistically they are an antalian-nithian offshoot (like the Traldar, Doulakki, Thyatins, Kerendans, Sindians, and Dunael), so they may not have moved west till a bit later ... They were already present before teh Azcan farmers who were the predecessors of the Sindhi went further west to the Asanda river. The Sind entry in CoM, IIRC, places all this around the time of the Great Rain of Fire. I'll recheck that, too. >Malpheggi >>lizard men in the swamp. >have you read Geoff Gander's Mogreth timeline? The lizard men may have been a lot more widespread than this. IMHO B5 has circumstantial evidence they were in NW biazzan. X6 shows that they went far to the west as well. Oh, certainly, but I was mainly dealing with the Atruaghin region. Yes, I definitely agree with a wider range of lizardkin. >>In 1750 BC, another cataclysm breaks chunks off the Five Shires and Atruaghin shores, stranding the Makai and lizardmen. Where did the Makai suddenly come from? >i thought it was always canon that they were related to the azcan-descended atruaghins. who said they were neathar? The Hollow World boxed set. It's one of the Thousand Tribes of Neathar. Not very well thought out connection, I agree. >makes a lot of sense. isn't there a makai lich - jaime honeycreeper or something like that? very weird considering the quasi-hawaiian basis of the makai. Again, the mixed origins. At this point, I think we can safely say the Makai are a composite culture- very Haitian and Polynesian at the same time. Which is fine, as it makes them somewhat unique to Mystara. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:05:20 -0600 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Silver Hearth Here's another of the items from my notes. The players in my PBeM have already met Selma and the Silver Hearth (but any information here isn't necessarily true in it though). It's a little rough but it tied in Karameikan School of Magecraft staff member, Elrol Kavaros, so I thought I should write it up. Hope you enjoy it and I'm open to any comments or suggestions. - ------- The Silver Hearth Tavern and Inn The Silver Hearth Tavern and Inn resides in the merchant district of Mirros near Mirror Bay and the lesser merchant district. The owner, Selma Lightfoot, opened its doors in the year 1009 AC. She first opened the Silver Hearth to serve the hin population of Mirros but that proved disastrous financially. Five months after its opening, Selma was almost forced to close. Most of the small amount of wealth she had gained during her adventuring career was gone and it looked like the rest would follow if she didn't change business tactics. So, the Silver Hearth opened its doors to all of the visitors of Mirros. She did manage to keep a small part of the tavern for hin. Many of the first customers wondered about the smaller that average chairs and tables, since so few hin visit Mirros, and nicknamed the Silver Hearth the Small Hearth. Since reorienting the desired clientele of the inn, the Silver Hearth had remained financially solid though profits weren't much beyond that. Selma had been tempted to take up adventuring more that once but her adopted son, Gunnar Bergthorson, has seen to it that she remain in retirement. In recent years, the Silver Hearth has become the favorite gathering spot of many adventurers visiting the city. Officials of the city have noticed this and have begun using the Silver Hearth as a good place to meet and commission jobs from the available adventures staying or visiting the inn. This has garnered Selma a bit of respectability from those officials that she hadn't expected. This eventually led to Selma becoming one of the many eyes and ears employed throughout the city by Queen Olivia. She has kept this secret from her closest friends and considers it her national duty. The following can usually be encountered at the Silver Hearth: Selma Lightfoot: AL N; AC 6; MV 6; halfling female T7; hp 34; THAC0 15; #AT 1; Damage 1d4+2 (dagger +2); Str 12, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Ch 14. Gunnar Bergthorsen: AL LG; AC 5 (chain mail); MV 12; human male F3; hp 20; THAC0 18; #AT 1; Damage 1d8/1d12 (long sword); Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 12, Ch 10. Avid Nightsong: AL NG; AC 3 (chain mail); MV 12; elf male F2/T3; hp 12; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Damage 1d8/1d12 (long sword); Str 15, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 11, Ch 15. - -- This has been a Galwylin© Production galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972) http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:25:51 +0300 (EET DST) From: Aleksei Andrievski Subject: [MYSTARA] - CC maps Hello, A bunch of Mystaran maps for CC1 are now available on my website. ****************************************** Aleksei Andrievski k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:06:33 EST From: Inconu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology << >Just one question. If these all are subject to the same 'physics' as MMystara, why not place them in the same dimension? The Alphatians, d'Ambrevilles, McGregors from another planet; the Beagle from another time; the Old Ones original gods. Does that screw with Mystara lore too much? I'm tired and don't feel like looking all that up The alphatians were from the same dimension, and the rest aren't. D'Ambervilles and McGregors are from Laterre which is another dimension in which there is only one way to really travel back and forth from. It's also outside of the multiverse which is one reason why the old ones have paid such close attention to them. The Beagle is also from another dimension. However, it is impossible to travel to that dimension....and the Old Ones are much higher beings then gods or immortals. They created the entire multiverse as an experimental project, meaning....they created gods and immortals and everything else in the multiverse for that matter. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:55:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Integrating Mystara into Planescape Cosmology Let me jump into this discussion with a few thought-provoking comments :) Somoneone: >>Just one question. If these all are subject to the same 'physics' as MMMystara, why not place them in the same dimension? The Alphatians, d'Ambrevilles, McGregors from another planet; the Beagle from another time; the Old Ones original gods. Does that screw with Mystara lore too much? I'm tired and don't feel like looking all that up Inconu: >The alphatians were from the same dimension, and the rest aren't. I think that according to WotI, the alphatians are from an other dimension. However earlier material state that they are from Mystaras dimension. I prefer the latter. >D'Ambervilles and McGregors are from Laterre which is another dimension in which there is only one way to really travel back and forth from. WotI states that laterre is in the Dimension of Myth, but IMO that doesn´t really fit. >It'salso >outside of the multiverse which is one reason why the old ones have paid such close attention to them. Aren´t all Dimensions outside the mutiverse? (Using WotI definition of Dimensions) >The Beagle is also from another dimension. However, it is impossible to travel to that dimension.. Impossible? Anyway I´m one of those who think the Beagle could be from the Mystara universe. >..and the Old Ones are much >higher beings then gods or immortals. They created the entire multiverse as an experimental project, meaning....they created gods and immortals and everything else in the multiverse for that matter. Speculations. Their existance has never been proven, even though the end of WotI seens to suggest this rather strongly. The GM has the final word ofcourse. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #202 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.