mystara-digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 507 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?) - off topic Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" [MYSTARA] - MULTIPOSTING Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering Re: [MYSTARA] - MULTIPOSTING Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement) Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:03:53 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:26 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:30 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:24 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:41 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:23 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:59:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:59:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:58:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:59:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:50:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:19 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:04:57 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:48 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:26:37 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?) - off topic << Vatican City :-) >> It really needs an Italian to remind us of that. :-) OTOH we're now far away from Mystara... Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:26:40 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering << > This might be the reason that the slavery was decreasing in Alphatia > in the last years. > Where in the Canon does it say that? >> Nothing explicite, but the Gaitians were annoyed about the Blackrockian ways and banded together with the Jennite slaves. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:04:49 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:23 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:19 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:19 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:23 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name >If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it >game-related (like I do *grin*) > Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" > If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it > game-related (like I do *grin*) > But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:39:10 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - MULTIPOSTING I`m really sorry it seems that I`ve got some sort of MAJOR system cockup so both my IDs are multiposting. It`s not my fault, I hope, but I think that I`ll get a new email and accesspont for sure now. Again VERY VERY VERY sorry for the SNAFU! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:00:32 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering > > Nothing explicite, but the Gaitians were annoyed > about the Blackrockian ways and banded together > with the Jennite slaves. > I wouldn't think that their attitude would apply to the Alphatian mainland, then. Gaity being a "nice" disneyland, the Gaitans hadn't seen such horrors (except in the "chamber of horrors", ticket price 1 sp per person) in their (sheltered) lives. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:02:18 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MULTIPOSTING > > I`m really sorry it seems that I`ve got some sort of MAJOR system cockup > so both my IDs are multiposting. It`s not my fault, I hope, but I think > that I`ll get a new email and accesspont for sure now. Again VERY VERY > VERY sorry for the SNAFU! > *whew* and here I thought I was getting mailbombed for my impudence 8-)~ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:15:11 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE" >Then again some of us can see racist TORY propaganda when we see it! Lol. Well, I am a Tory (and a Thatcher fan *shock! horror!*), so I have selected blindness, I think. :) >Basically the general public believes what they`re told to believe, >use of the media for such is a very longstanding tradition. Back to >Mystara, though the same still applies. Characters become `heroic` >only if that`s the way they`re represented to the public. This is >actually quite a problem at the high levels of play as in order to >keep the threat level you have to resort to non public actions for or >against PC`s. eg assassinations, planar travel etc. This leads to the >supposition that many `retired` adventurers are actually still in the >game but it`s the `Great Game` rather than a visit to beat up the >nearest orc. I'm with you here. One of the PCs in my campaign is a bard (bards, of course, are the Mystaran "spin doctors!"). Everyone on the planet (virtually) thinks he is some incredibly powerful demi Immortal (hes not, but hey - fame!). I'm with you on the "non public actions" as well. Besides, if anyone found out what that bard got up to in his spare time, he wouldnt be famous. Reviled, perhaps... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:21:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement) > What if the Realms people stared calling Kara-Tur KT, or Waterdeep was WD. > Jeez. What next? > > > Max IV - Renaming the Republic of Darokin, ROD. > Why not call it the `Confederated Alphatian Surface Empire` (CASE)? then those who don`t want that could call it `Surface Alphatia` , `Outer Alphatia` etc. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:19:43 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia - ----->> Winston? Your tempting me, now... >> Maybe he's Chamberlain? >> >Bah! People don't even know the liturature of their own writters! Aha! But do have you read all of the David Gemmell books? >It was a Ninteen Eighty Four reference, which IMO is perfect for Alphatia. Nahh, I'm just a WW2 enthusiast (along with many other things...). My experience of literature involved falling asleep during Macbeth... Hey, I'm from Devon! We aren't cultured down here - we just drink cider... Cheerz ROB (Hmmm. Mystara content... ahh, ill think of something later :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:45:05 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands. << Also, one has to admit, however reluctantly, that canon is, um. . . .not always very internally consistant. >> And it isn't very consistent that there are more than one or two temples of an immortal in a land who's not important enough to be on the list of the revered ones. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:45:11 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society << > DoE says that slave marrying a king remains a slave, > but of course her husband can promote her to gentry > via the usual way. That is in the Thyatian book. In the Alphatian book, it specifically says that marriage does not promote the lower class partner in any way. I would infer from this reference that all Alphatian marriages are "common law" marriages -- they have no social sanction and can be dissolved by one partner moving out of the residence of the other partner. >> Back to the rules, I would say! Sorry, but this was nonsense, as I've cited the Alphatian book. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #507 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 508 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level Re: [MYSTARA] - The name Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement) Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Marfeldt, The Barbarian - Questions & Answers Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering [MYSTARA] - Acronyms Re: [MYSTARA] - Marfeldt, The Barbarian - Questions & Answers Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering Re: [MYSTARA] - Acronyms Re: [MYSTARA] - Acronyms Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:45:07 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << > I demand the other extreme, that the humans in Wendar have > taken over the Elven customs... Okay, we can always say that marriages are for 50-100 years. That would allow Elves to have multiple partners but would effectively make most human marriages "for life". >> Now, really guys! A society where the humans don't marry isn't described for Mystara yet. Why not Wendar? To insist on the fact that all humans have mariages is a RW prejudice which we all should overcome. BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which don't have a marriage custom in any form. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:48:33 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Christian Gotschi wrote: > That is, out of (lets say) 1 000 000 people > How many are NH > How many are 1st level > How many are 2nd level I'd say a good 75%-80% of that general million are NHs, 1st and second level. Most people walking down the street aren't too advanced. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:50:58 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, paul dooley wrote: [snip ad nauseum] Jeez. It just sent this silly message 40 times to the list. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement) On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Cptn. Stardust wrote: > Why not call it the `Confederated Alphatian Surface Empire` (CASE)? > then those who don`t want that could call it `Surface Alphatia` , > `Outer Alphatia` etc. But everyone on the surface don't know Alphatia is in the HW. NACE is ok, i guess. But I'd prefer Just AC, Alphatian Confederation. Period. The empire is only in name. max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:38:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status Actually, on the below, both were right. Marriage changes a person's social status in Thyatis, but technically & legally has no effect on a person's status in Alphatia (since marriage isn't an institution given recognition in Alphatian law). However, as the Khan pointed out, their is nothing stopping a sufficiently wealthy Alphatian from promoting anyone he or she desires to gentry status (endowing them with the appropirate shell/holding company "business"), be it a paramour or just someone that the Aristocrat has adopted as a factotum or "pet" of sorts. Only theoretical problem would come if an Alphatian aristocrat were attracted to the slave of another person, and that person refused to sell the slave and/or make the slave a freedman (or -woman). > > << > DoE says that slave marrying a king remains a slave, > > but of course her husband can promote her to gentry > > via the usual way. > > That is in the Thyatian book. In the Alphatian book, it specifically > says that marriage does not promote the lower class partner in > any way. I would infer from this reference that all Alphatian > marriages are "common law" marriages -- they have no social > sanction and can be dissolved by one partner moving out of > the residence of the other partner. >> > > Back to the rules, I would say! > Sorry, but this was nonsense, as I've cited the Alphatian > book. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:39:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status Actually, on the below, both were right. Marriage changes a person's social status in Thyatis, but technically & legally has no effect on a person's status in Alphatia (since marriage isn't an institution given recognition in Alphatian law). However, as the Khan pointed out, their is nothing stopping a sufficiently wealthy Alphatian from promoting anyone he or she desires to gentry status (endowing them with the appropirate shell/holding company "business"), be it a paramour or just someone that the Aristocrat has adopted as a factotum or "pet" of sorts. Only theoretical problem would come if an Alphatian aristocrat were attracted to the slave of another person, and that person refused to sell the slave and/or make the slave a freedman (or -woman). > > << > DoE says that slave marrying a king remains a slave, > > but of course her husband can promote her to gentry > > via the usual way. > > That is in the Thyatian book. In the Alphatian book, it specifically > says that marriage does not promote the lower class partner in > any way. I would infer from this reference that all Alphatian > marriages are "common law" marriages -- they have no social > sanction and can be dissolved by one partner moving out of > the residence of the other partner. >> > > Back to the rules, I would say! > Sorry, but this was nonsense, as I've cited the Alphatian > book. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:48:05 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: > << > I demand the other extreme, that the humans in Wendar have > > taken over the Elven customs... > > Okay, we can always say that marriages are for 50-100 years. > That would allow Elves to have multiple partners but would > effectively make most human marriages "for life". >> > > Now, really guys! A society where the humans don't > marry isn't described for Mystara yet. Why not Wendar? > To insist on the fact that all humans have mariages > is a RW prejudice which we all should overcome. > > BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which > don't have a marriage custom in any form. Yeah, they're called "extinct". ; ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:05:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > > > > BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which > > don't have a marriage custom in any form. > > Yeah, they're called "extinct". > I'm not so sure about that. off the top of my head I can think of no RW society that doesn't have marriage customs of some sort (at least no major societies), but I believe that if we looked hard enough we could probably come up with one, or some, that have informal and/or brief "marriages" at best. On the other hand, Mystara *does* already have a major society where marriage is not a very significant social institution: Alphatia. Yes, people get married in Alphatia, but the law doesn't sanction it in any way, and it seems that a number of prominent people don't get married at all (Edriana, for one; Torenal was a paramour, but only one among many. IIRC, they never married). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:36:18 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs At 02:48 PM 7/14/98 -0400, Daly wrote: >JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: >> Now, really guys! A society where the humans don't >> marry isn't described for Mystara yet. Why not Wendar? >> To insist on the fact that all humans have mariages >> is a RW prejudice which we all should overcome. >> >> BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which >> don't have a marriage custom in any form. > >Yeah, they're called "extinct". > >; ) Not necessarily. One doesn't need the 'institution of marriage' to create future generations, just good, healthy sex. ;-) In a case where it didn't matter to the society which male created the child (it's obvious which female it was), there would be little need for the concept of 'marriage' to come about. Males and females just "hang out" with whomever they happen to feel comfortable with at the time. :-) Some people might even say that there are many members of our own society who effectivly do this through the concept of 'serial monogamy' -- i.e, you marry one person, get divorced, marry another, get divorced again, etc, often having one child with each partner. [Note -- I'm not necessarily for or against this way of life. I'm just pointing out its existance.] With that said, why couldn't the humans of Wendarian (or another Mystaran) society have gravitated towards the Elfin norm of not participating in "marriage" per se? It could prove to be quite interesting to develop. Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:59:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal Excerpt from a private mail. The long part is mine (should be obvious, since when am I ever brief? "verbose" would be a *polite* way of describing my screeds. . .) > > We should form a Byzantine cabal! > I'm in favor of that. 8-) Certainly we (in general) need to stand up for the kind of direction we'd like to see in game-related stuff with regards to our own little fantasy "Byzantiums", and our vision theirof. Their is a very vocal Alphatiaphile community on this list, but it is somewhat evident to me that while a flip side of the coin, a counterpart to that exists, it seems largely silent. Perhaps discouraged (an impression I get from one or two other people who have mailed me about ideas they put forward [to the list], only to be cut down, in the past). I'm already getting somewhat discouraged, because there seems to be an influential and powerful Alphataphile cabal, but no counterpart to it. IMO, a "Byzantine cabal" could introduce fun & intriguing concepts into Mystara (there is *so* much one can get just from the history itself; c.f. Turtledove's "Videssos" books). New Alphatian anthem: "Panglossia, tis For Thee" *Big, Smeg-Eating Grin* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:44:26 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > With that said, why couldn't the humans of Wendarian (or another >Mystaran) society have gravitated towards the Elfin norm of not >participating in "marriage" per se? It could prove to be quite interesting >to develop. Yavdlom society also has a loose interpretation of marriage--marriages last as long as two people are in love. This could very well be due to the influence of the Sheyallia elves, who now have a very similar practice in Graakhalia, or perhaps it was the Yavdlom who influenced the Sheyallia. Regardless, IMO Wendar is not the right place for a society without marriage. Like Jenni mentioned, modern society has a high rate of divorces and impermanency in marriage (similar, perhaps, to Thyatis). But the divorce rates are highest in modern, urbanized areas, while rural areas and, especially, areas where subsistence farming or herding is necessary, there is very little divorce. My picture of Wendar has always been of a quaint, rustic nation with little log cabins dotting the countryside. Hardly the place, IMO, for anything but monogamy to be dominant. Nonexistent marriage customs work best in either densely populated cities or close-knit tribal societies--I just don't think Wendar is the place. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:47:16 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal > New Alphatian anthem: "Panglossia, tis For Thee" >*Big, Smeg-Eating Grin* What can I say! The Byzantophiles are headed by a Red Dwarf fan??? Can I resist? I think not... (I wondered where the biting acidic sarcasm came from...) Or am I "way off base", as the Americans are said to say? Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:01:00 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > At 02:48 PM 7/14/98 -0400, Daly wrote: > >JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: > >> Now, really guys! A society where the humans don't > >> marry isn't described for Mystara yet. Why not Wendar? > >> To insist on the fact that all humans have mariages > >> is a RW prejudice which we all should overcome. > >> > >> BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which > >> don't have a marriage custom in any form. > > > >Yeah, they're called "extinct". > > > >; ) > > Not necessarily. One doesn't need the 'institution of marriage' to > create future generations, just good, healthy sex. ;-) I seriously doubt that there is any real world example of a society that did not have some sort of "parental standard" which survived more than a few generations. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:36:12 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Marfeldt, The Barbarian - Questions & Answers James, thanks for sharing with us the tale of Marfeldt the Barbarian. Although, some questions have haunted me since i first read it. > He suddenly burst upon the world about a year ago when it was said > he killed the Wizard that created him during a friendly wrestling > match. Who could have done such a feat ? Was Marfeldt strictly created or was it created in another sense ? Some possibilities i've come with : He could have been his father, his tutor or his trainer. Although, I must admit Marfeldt doesn't fits in any of this roles, neither the mage looks too usual. > A secondary power of this creature is the revulsion [ I > think he meant attraction; read on --ed ] that overcomes all those > who are near it for a prolonged period. If this period lasts for > more than a few turns , the other party will gradually assume the > mental characteristics of the barbarian and only a Wizard can cure > him/her [Doesn't say with what spell, though --ed] AS far as i remember The DA Series featured our friend as Marfeldt, the last anarchyst. Maybe everybody feels inclined to befriend his cause due to the propaganda. > *(From the Archives of Rhun)* On the 14th of Salix, What are those archives supposed to be ? And, was some kind of calendar developed as those featured on the gazetteer series ? > [SNIPPED DUE TO EXTREME LENGTH ] Could some of our blackmoorian sages please tell us who was the duke, which were the countries involved and when did the battles take place ? Tomas Sanchez deckard@encomix.es #ICQ : 9190040 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:54:29 +0200 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!! Ambreville@aol.com wrote: > It's still in Milwaukee at least until Y2K included -- when the > contract w/Andon comes to an end. After this, I don't think any > decision has been made as of yet. > I'll be at GenCon touring the booths and meeting old friends. > Hope to see a few of you -- finally a chance to put faces on > some of these names! :o) When will it start and how many days it will be ? I have been invited to visit the USA next September. Although the great lakes region is far from Milwaukee ( i guess ) maybe i could persuade my friend to visit it. PostData : Does anyone lives near Erie ? Tomas Sanchez deckard@encomix.es #ICQ : 9190040 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:57:34 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > In a case where it didn't matter to the society which male created the >child (it's obvious which female it was), there would be little need for >the concept of 'marriage' to come about. Males and females just "hang out" Yes, but if the parents aren't kept track of, that would eventually lead to relatives mating with each other, perhaps even brothers and sisters. Soon, we would have some major bad genes... ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:59:13 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal >> We should form a Byzantine cabal! >> >I'm in favor of that. 8-) > Certainly we (in general) need to stand up for the kind of direction we'd >like to see in game-related stuff with regards to our own little fantasy >"Byzantiums", and our vision theirof. I'm joining! I'd propose the formation of a Magocrat cabal, but it isn't really necessary, since everybody loves Glantri :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:56:54 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering << I wouldn't think that their attitude would apply to the Alphatian mainland, then. Gaity being a "nice" disneyland, the Gaitans hadn't seen such horrors (except in the "chamber of horrors", ticket price 1 sp per person) in their (sheltered) lives. >> Maybe, maybe not, but it seems that Alphatia is on the way to permit the slavery, of course a long and painful process. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:56:57 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Acronyms << Why not call it the `Confederated Alphatian Surface Empire` (CASE)? then those who don`t want that could call it `Surface Alphatia` , `Outer Alphatia` etc. >> And the rpublic of Esterhold "United States of Esterhold" (USE), the Esterholdian secret service USENET... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:08:14 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Marfeldt, The Barbarian - Questions & Answers > Who could have done such a feat ? Was Marfeldt strictly created or was > it created in another sense ? Some possibilities i've come with : He > could have been his father, his tutor or his trainer. Although, I must > admit Marfeldt doesn't fits in any of this roles, neither the mage > looks too usual. > It says "created", and doesn't give details. I had always assumed that meant "spawned from some vat" As for "who could have done such a feat" remember that this all originated before rules bound everything. I suppose you could assume that Marfeldt is some kind of Magen of an extremely powerful and annoying sort. DA1 & DA3 give info on him as well, but nothing (that I could see) on his origins. > > AS far as i remember The DA Series featured our friend as Marfeldt, the > last anarchyst. Maybe everybody feels inclined to befriend his cause due > to the propaganda. > A possibility. He seems to have an Enthrallment power simiar to that of Sonia Sholako & Lola Dafin from the same module. > > *(From the Archives of Rhun)* On the 14th of Salix, > > What are those archives supposed to be ? And, was some kind of > calendar developed as those featured on the gazetteer series ? > It doesn't say. IMO, the "Archives" were a history of Rhun, which I assume was the devistated duchy in question. > > Could some of our blackmoorian sages please tell us who was the duke, > which were the countries involved and when did the battles take place ? > Rhun *may* have been a Duchy of the Great Kingdom ("Great Thonia"). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:10:50 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering > > Maybe, maybe not, but it seems that Alphatia is on the way > to permit the slavery, of course a long and painful process. > I assume you meant "prohibit", and I'd ask which accessory, page #, and quote, gave you the impression that they were considering such a move. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:12:41 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acronyms > > And the rpublic of Esterhold "United States of Esterhold" (USE), > the Esterholdian secret service USENET... > Naw, the secret police should be lodged in the Ministry of Love (MiniLov) Don't forget the MiniTru & MiniPax, either. A *lot* of folks seem to be part of the NACE MiniTru. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:04:42 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acronyms In a message dated 7/14/98 6:10:45 PM, you wrote: <<"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." >> Maybe this could just be: H.A.O.B.T.M.K.W.I.L. This eventually becomes a common phrase in E:KoG, and pony boys start using it in everyday speech, pronounced "How'b-team-quill" For example: Bow-wielding pony boy :"You must give two more head of cattle in tribute this year." Small, garlic-wearing Boldavian dirt farmer: "TWO more? We couldn't survive the winter!" B.W.P.B. "How'b-team-quill!" S.G.W.B.D.F: "Okay, okay . . . Sorry BoBo II "Hear and consider, because BoBo II's word is negotiable" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:17:25 -0500 From: Porphyrogenetus Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ByzantinoThyatian Cabal > > What can I say! The Byzantophiles are headed by a Red Dwarf fan??? > Is that so wrong? http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/cat1.wav *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:44:02 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-14 17:42:49 EDT, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes: > Yes, but if the parents aren't kept track of, that would eventually lead to > relatives mating with each other, perhaps even brothers and sisters. Soon, > we would have some major bad genes... Of course, even a society with very loose or non-existent marriage laws could still have an incest taboo. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we should assume that Alphatia (and probably every Mystaran society except possibly Thothia and/or Hollow World Nithia) does indeed have a taboo against mating with close relatives. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:44:17 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level In a message dated 98-07-14 03:15:18 EDT, ChristianG@vircom.co.za writes: > What do you people think the level/class breakdowns for mystara are? > > That is, out of (lets say) 1 000 000 people > How many are NH > How many are 1st level > How many are 2nd level > ... > How many are 36th level (remember we need 1000 36th level MU in > Alphatia, MU ha ha ha ha) The only firm conclusion that we can reach is that the number at each level should be less than at the previous level -- with the possible exception of level 36, which as an absolute maximum probably has more people than are of level 35. But the exact breakdown would doubtless vary from place to place -- among the demi-humans, for example, all adults would be at least level 1. But even the human societies should have greater numbers of adventurers than most other game worlds. For example, it is clearly stated that about 20% of Alphatians have the talent to become spellcasters. I would infer from that statistic that 20% of all adult Alphatians are Priests or Wizards of at least level 1, and thus (since we must assume that mundane adventurers are even more numerous) no more than 50% of adult Alphatians are level zero "normal humans". At the other end, we have a thousand spellcasters of level 36 on the Grand Council. Since there should be at least as many mundaners of that level, that would mean that Alphatia has no less than two thousand individuals of level 36 out of a population of 5.8 million. > and > how many are MU > how many are F That would also vary from place to place, but generally Fighters should be the most numerous class while Mages should be the least numerous outside of such nations as Glantri and Alphatia. Based on the figures I cited for Alphatia, for example, we might divide up the adventurers as follows: 40% Fighters 25% Wizards 20% Thieves 10% Priests 5% Others (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Monks, Psionicists, etc.) -- for whichever of these classes you decide actually exist on Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #508 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, July 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 509 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands. Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Various and Sundry [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society [MYSTARA] - Legend of the Fallen Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Part 1/2 (Long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:44:10 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands. In a message dated 98-07-14 13:57:18 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > And it isn't very consistent that there are more than one > or two temples of an immortal in a land who's not important > enough to be on the list of the revered ones. Of course, in a country as large as Alphatia a "minor Immortal" could well have dozens of temples -- spread them out over the entire country and they will be barely noticed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:44:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-14 13:58:13 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > BTW, I'm sure that there are some RW society which > don't have a marriage custom in any form. The closest that I can think of is that of the ancient Picts, who traced ancestry through the female line (inheritance being from uncle to nephew) and apparently attached no social significance at all to paternity. But even this one is questionable (since little is really known about the Picts), and in the vast majority of real world societies men care very much about keeping "their" women away from sexual contact with other men -- thus most societies have some method by which a man can indicate, "This is my woman -- everyone else stay away!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 98 20:33:17 PDT From: Cecil Cosman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City I'll collect the information and put it together. I've been looking for something to do now that I have all of my projects done. Anyone that wants to contribute something I'll set up a page somewhere and compile the info. C.Cosman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:44:27 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] Various and Sundry Mystarans, Looking back to three or four months ago, I think most of us could agree that the list has reaquired a much friendlier atmosphere as of late, for which I am very grateful. With the except of the recent Pierre Problem, things have been running smoothly... With that said though, I must point out that the amount of off- topic posts has greatly increased. While these threads tend to be part of on-topic threads, they still wander too far out into left field. In addition, the amount of cluttering "banter" has vastly increased. Now, I am not saying you can't post the occasional off-topic post, as long as it is soon taken to private e-mail, or made Mystara- relavent. Nor am I saying to completely knock off the banter; it is one of the factors adding to the friendlier atmosphere. But I am asking to tone it down quite a bit. The signal-to-noise ratio is rather poor at the moment. So, try to restrain to yourself to one such comment a day, please (or something like that. Don't make me take up the Banter Police badge :) I don't want to stifle communication, just get the list back on track. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:20:07 +0200 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? Patrick Sullivan wondered: <> The right question should be then: is Death Evil? I don't think Death should be labeled evil, but just "natural", though I agree there are different kinds of death. But in our case, Thanatos is not really "Neutral" as death seems to be in RW (to me, the best representation of Death remains that given by Ingmar Bergman's "The Seventh Sigil"). Think about it: Thanatos plots and schemes to PROMOTE and to CAUSE death *intentionally*. We're not talking about Entropy here, quite the contrary: we're talking about the end of all life. Should Entropy be considered the opposite of life? I don't think so.. In a way, Thanatos is perhaps the most "Lawful" of the Entropics because of his obsession with death: he wants not a world where Chaos prevail, rather he dreams of a world where Death reigns. And I'm not talking about undeath either here: Thanatos wishes the utter annihilation of every kind of Life, even at HIS OWN life. After all, think about this: if Thanatos IS Death, he will continue to live as long as Death will exist. But when will Death cease to exist? When Life will be utterly annihilated.. No more beings who live, no more Life; but no more beings who die, no more Death either.. So, Thanatos is evil because he seeks to kill every kind of life intentionally (he doesn't merely wait for living and unliving beings to die..). But Thanatos is also more lawful than all Chaotics, for he has a very square and simple plan to fulfill. However, Thanatos has not realized yet that if he ever reaches his goal, he will perish because of it, since if Death wants to reign, all life forms must be extinguished.. Thanatos's as well.. Sorry for the cryptic theorizations.. ;) PS: just to remind you, it is not Lord Heinrich Oesterhaus who's supposed to be Mystara's Hitler, rather his son Hans (read the description in DotE: the son is the one who makes public speeches from the SS block in Thyatis..) PPS: sorry if you get this twice, but apparently I'm having problems sending out my mails to this list (anybody received anything from me on the list in the last days?) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:28:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society Question: If Esterhod is too Artic to grow crops, isn't that even more true for the Yannivey Islands? And yet Floating Ar was moved to Yanniveys to ". . .use them to grow crops in the forthcoming years." So, IMO, either stuff can be grown in Esterhold, or by 1015 Floating Ar will have discovered they have made a catastrophic mistake when choosing the Yanniveys. Of course, they *could* spend time and effort using massive magic (assuming it is available) to render the Yanniveys more productive (though artic soil still wouldn't be "plus bonum" for such uses), thus spending resources better directed to other pursuits. Or they could move Floating Ar again, this time to, say, the Veritloch Islands. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:12:51 +0200 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Legend of the Fallen Elves There is one thing in GAZ5 that has always intrigued me, an obscure reference or hint (I don't know if that was intentional or what) that was never explained. The passage I am referring to is this: "Wherever elves go, it seems that orcs soon follow (or vice versa). Some scholars believe the orc/elf struggle may have cosmic significance. In all likelihood, the truth lies buried under the southern polar ice cap in what was once Evergrun, the elven homeland" (GAZ5, page 10) Now, Evergrun is long since gone, and probably now lies in the Darklands of the Hollow World (or nearby), so it is not that easy to discover the truth. But I have a theory that takes into consideration Mystaros's alternative timeline as well as the canon one. It deals with the elves and a test... an their failure... I hope you'll like it ;) DM The Legend of the Fallen Ones Many eons ago, Ordana wished to create a new race that could embody the goodness of nature and act as her heralds, protecting the forest and its dwellers all around the world. Those were the times of the vile Serpentine Empire, which had taken over after the imprisonment of the Carnifex. Ordana searched among the serpentines and saw that not all of them harbored feelings of greed, hatred and thirst for conquest. She took some of the most enlightened and open minded serpentines and transported them to Evergrun, where she began altering them, purifying their soul from the evil taint of the serpentine race and reshaping their body to more harmonic and gracious forms. Thus the first elves were created. They retained no memories of their earlier life and were new to their bodies and their powers: for this reason, for the first centuries of life Ordana sent the Forest Spirits to shelter, to protect and to guide the elves along the right path, the Path of the Forest. But the Forces of Entropy were monitoring this experiment as well, and soon started to act with the only pourpose of corrupting this new race and leave Mystara under the sway of Chaos. Around BC 5,000 the Forest Spirits were ordered by Ordana to leave the elves: it was time for them to learn by themselves what life was like and how their powers could have been employed. However, Ordana loved her children and to further guide and protect them she gave the elven race her last gift: the One Tree of Ordana. This majestic oaktree was sentient and had incredible magical properties the elves could exploit: they began worshipping Ordana even more and organized their community around this sacred artifact. But in the following decades, some elves began experiencing strange dreams, hearing stranger voices which promised them ultimate power and knowledge of all that was and would be. These voices and dreams sounded very convincing to some of them, who slowly changed their way of seeing the world, turning their soul into a darker hue. They began questioning the goals of the elves, the rules and laws of Ordana and their very lifestyle, first silently then more openly. The elven sages tried to make them see their mistakes but didn't punish them, for they hadn't really done anything but asking provocative questions. Yet the last step towards Chaos was near.. These elves aspired to be different from their brethren and with the passing decades this feeling only augmented, until they finally seized their opportunity to change things and find answers to their questions.. One of them, an elfin whose name's lost in the mists of time, was assistant to the Keeper of the One Tree. She had not yet voiced her doubts and ideas openly for she feared retaliation and humiliation at the hands of the Elders, but she constantly attended the meetings where the "heretic elves" talked about the world outside, the Greater Powers, the elven might and the Ultimate Lifeform. She was convinced that Ordana was not only a model to be worshipped, but to be imitated. She often spoke to her friends that the elves' destiny was to become like Ordana, in order to expand their wisdom and knowledge and guide the other races of the world just like Ordana was doing with them. In her mind she was absolutely sure that the One Tree was both a boon and a bane, a test given them by Ordana. The tree could make life easier for the elves and grant them almost everything they'd wanted to live a pampered and sheltered existence, but that was not the real pourpose of the One Tree. In fact, she often said, Ordana had granted them the tree because that was the only way to achieve freedom from the material world and the ultimate knowledge necessary to their final enlightenment. The elves should have used it not to make life easier but to achieve an upper form of existence like that of Ordana. The voices they heard, the questions they arose were inspired by Ordana herself, who, after seeing how the Elders misunderstood her gift, was now sending her true message to those who could understand it. The elfin quickly became the leader of this group of elves, who called themselves the Seekers, and after some time she finally convinced them to act and to fulfill the goal of their life: challenge the Elders and show them their mistakes. One grim day, the elfin together with a group of the most zealots among her followers breached inside the temple where the One Tree was guarded and demanded to use it, refusing to tell the Keepers their intentions. The Keepers, amazed by the young apprentice's behaviour, tried to stop the group and to parlay, but in a fit of rage the elfin lashed at her master and killed him before anyone could react. The remaining two Keepers were so shocked and numbed by the event that they weren't able to react immediately and so they fell under the blows of those who accompanied the elfin. They knew that there were others in the temple that could have heard the screams of the keepers, and so reached the One Tree before anybody could attempt to stop them. They had to show all the other elves their mistakes after all.. The One Tree sensed their arrival.. and it also knew what they had done: they had murdered their own kind. With the blood of their brethren still on her hands, the elfin approached the One Tree and established a mental contact with it the way the Keepers had taught her to do. She demanded it to give her absolute knowledge and power for this was what Ordana wanted. She asked for an upper state of existence, that which Ordana also led, for they had been made to guide and teach the races of the world much like Ordana had done so far. When the One Tree refused, the elfin felt betrayed: was this another trial prepared by Ordana? Maybe the tree was the guardian of the key to ultimate knowledge and it had been instructed to protect it to death.. Suddenly, the elfin ordered his friends to attack the One Tree, and they all assaulted it. That was the last drop.. The elves had killed their own kind, betrayed their Patron and now tried to kill her Living Prophet, severing the bond of Alliance she shared with them. Ordana saw the seeds of Entropy inside these elves' soul and ordered her Tree to break the sigils. The One Tree reacted to the attack by lifting Ordana's protection over those elves, so the forces of Entropy that were tainting them had free access to their souls. The seeds of Chaos and Evil that had been growing in their hearts and mind flourished all of a sudden, overfed by their hatred and malignance and by the evil deeds just committed.. but oh, what kind of flowers they produced! The elves began to change immediately after dealing the first blow to the One Tree, and the change was not a pleasant one. Screams of pain and horror echoed through the halls of the temple, awakening those who still slept, who discovered the intruders in the Sacred Garden. But what they saw there were not elves: rather monsters and evil spirits that had somehow breached the temple and killed the Keepers to destroy their holy relic. Some of the elves had been turned into strange snakelike beings, returning to their old ancestral serpentine form, while others had been deformed so utterly that they were more similar to animal humanoids than to elves. But one of them had the most terrible form of them all: that of a large jet black wyrm with an elfin's head! And when they saw her face they understood that these were no demons but cursed elves, and that their only duty now was to drive them away or to kill them. Some fled, others fought and were killed; the wyrm chose to fly away swallowing her hatred and hiding her tears in the night rain. Final Notes The humanoid beings were the first Beastmen specimens, from which the humanoids derive. When some of these creatures died, Hel transplanted her souls in the Borean Valley, creating other evil Beastmen who passed on the next generations their hatred for the elven race who had cursed and then abandoned them. Obviously, the real reasons for this hatred and envy were forgotten with the passing of the centuries, but the feeling never died, and the humanoids still now consider the elves their primal enemy. The elves, on their part, have forgotten the whole story as well.. most of them at least. There are still a few elven sages who have buried in their memory or in their dusty libraries the Legend of the Fallen Ones, but they do not tell it normally. They are ashamed by what their brethren did and somehow feel responsible for the creation of the humanoids. To them, the humanoids are the living proof of their greatest mistake, of their imperfection, and this must not be known by the other races. They will always try to eradicate this race from the face of Mystara to wash their souls from the sins of the past.. As for those elves who were part of the Seekers but didn't participate in the murder (and there were many), they stayed in hiding among their brethren for some centuries, until some priests from a far away nation called Blackmoor contacted the elves and showed them their wonders... These elves were the first to assimilate the Blackmoor customs and were responsible for the "techinicization" of Evergrun, finally reaching their old goal: abandon the Path of the Forest and try out the road that would have made them free and all powerful.. The rest is history.. A last word about th elfin who was turned into a dragon. She was the first Onyx Dragon to walk on Mystara, and many other black and onyx dragons were spawned by her. Nobody knows what her true fate was and nobody ever heard of her after she left Evergrun. Her punishment however, was the most severe.. and it is still haunting her to these days.. But this, my friends, is another story.. - -Bensarian of Kevar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:27 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << (Edriana, for one; Torenal was a paramour, but only one among many. IIRC, they never married). >> IIRC there's no canon material for one of these options. I prefer the idea that Eriadna and Torenal was married indeed. Life was hard enough for General Torenal already. BTW, we know that Eriadna has five children, the three youngest with Torenal. Im my ears this sounds like a marriage. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:25 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << Yeah, they're called "extinct". >> Like the Elves of Alfheim? A really funny remark. Jamuga Khan "The Mighty Khan was not amused." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:29 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << I seriously doubt that there is any real world example of a society that did not have some sort of "parental standard" which survived more than a few generations. >> Real world humans prejudices again... Isn't there a professional or amateur anthropologist on the list? He should know an answer. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:28 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << With that said, why couldn't the humans of Wendarian (or another Mystaran) society have gravitated towards the Elfin norm of not participating in "marriage" per se? It could prove to be quite interesting to develop. >> Thank you, Jenni, it seems that you have understood me. A point I had in mind but not yet written down is the following: Why should those elves, sometimes arrogant as only elves can be, always adapt their lifes to human customs, but not a single time the humans to elven customs? The consequence would be that the elves are a inferior race or perceive themselves as one, at least. I'm sure that nobody of my readers would see it that way. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:31 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Dear foreigners and unbelievers, I have to make an announcement on behalf of my khan, the Mighty Jamuga Khan. Some days ago a special argam of the Keshak achieved to take a description of our land and people, called "The Golden Khan of Ethengar - Player's Guides" as booty. After some studies the khan had to admit that this description was fairly correct. My khan, well known as generous, is willing now to share this description with all interested in it. He demands no money for it, as money is of no value for an Ethengarian anyhow. All it would you cost were a quantum of time to receive and read it. All possible readers be warned: The size of this document is over 4MB, even if properly packed. We can offer it as one ZIP documents or as three ARJ documents well adapted to fit on three discs. The list is now opened for all who want to have this excellent work readable with Acrobate Reader. Ethenor Personal Advisor of the Mighty Khan "I only live to serve!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:30 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << Yes, but if the parents aren't kept track of, that would eventually lead to relatives mating with each other, perhaps even brothers and sisters. Soon, we would have some major bad genes... >> Finally we have found the real reason why elves are dying out in most fantasy worlds... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:22 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage & Social Status << Only theoretical problem would come if an Alphatian aristocrat were attracted to the slave of another person, and that person refused to sell the slave and/or make the slave a freedman (or -woman). >> Yeah, I already see an adventure coming... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:32:39 -0500 From: Timothy Becker Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Please send me "The Golden Khan of Ethengar - Player's Guides" as a zipped file. thanx, tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:59:45 -0500 From: "Cecil Cosman" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > Yes, I proposed this idea some time ago, but it died down pretty soon. > Basically, it would mean that members of the MML would detail a single city > (like some other lists are doing). Selenica was the most popular choice > IIRC, due to its cultural intermingling. So shall we do it? (we will need a > website to collect the material) > I'll collect it, I've been looking for something to do anyhow. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:10:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Part 1/2 (Long) Here's the Jennite Hollow World Reference. It got rather long so I chopped it into two slightly shorter sections. Anyways, any comments/criticism are greatly appreciated. Jennite Horsemen Hollow World Reference by Mischa Gelman and Cecil Cosman utilizing ideas by James Mishler and Paul Dooley as well Order of section one: History Gender Religion Age Domestic Relations/Leaders Social Status Justice Foreign Relations Diet Magic (inc. New Magical Items/Spells/Tattoist subsections) Entertainment HISTORY Jennite history traces its days all the way back to Blackmoorian times. With the revolt and rise of the Blackmoorians to important status, the Thonian Empire started to wane. Becoming more and more reliant on slaves to do the work of maintaining a semblance of its former status, the slavers started looking further and further away. So it was that the Oltecs, far to the east, came in large numbers under the rule of the Thonians. The Thonians did not strike at the Oltec civilization's heart, but rather at the numerous colonization groups that kept coming within range of the slavers' reach. When the Blackmoorian cataclysm and near-destruction of the Thonians occurred, the damaged landscape of the former Empire now belonged to the slaves, who had been in the majority numerically in the Thonians' last days of glory. Oltecs by this point were predominant, but Skandharians and Afridhi, Blackmoorians, Tanagoroans and Azcans all were part of the remnants of the past that remained. Banding together in these bleak days, they eventually formed one culture eventually, that of the Jennites. This culture was also heavily influenced by the Horsemen of Peshwah, then dying out as well from the effects of the cataclysmic events. From the Horsemen, the Oltecs and other former slaves learned the mastery of the horse as well as some of the magic and language of the Peshwah. By the time things had stabilized around 2700 BC, no trace of the original cultures had remained and the Jennite culture had formed. This culture, though, was divided in two - some Oltec colonizers had landed on the continent at the times after the Blackmoorian cataclysm, fleeing their own lands, while the Jeniite herders held the interior that had become theirs since the destruction of the Thonian Empire. These cultures intermingled to some extent but there were great tensions and the coastlanders became nothing of a concern at all to the dominant Jennite hordes, even as they were picking up Jennite cultural tendencies somewhat. Instrumental to teaching the coastlanders Jennite culture fully was a former horseland priestess named Tarastia who had fled her own tribe after finding it unjust. She helped save the coastlanders to a large extent, bringing them a code of justice to adhere to and leading them against her former peoples. If not for her, the coastlanders would likely have been totally obliterated. In 2449 BC, she vanished from the coast, then on her path to immortality, unknown at the time to the coastland Jennites. Tarastia, upon achieving immortality, made herself known to the inland Jennites and coastland Jennites, both of whom took up the worship (ironically the inland Jennites that she had fled became more loyal). The inland Jennites were strengthened by her clerical gifts to their priests and by her sense of justice. By 1900 BC, the inland Jennites had grown strong, become a true horse-based culture and become a major force with which to be reckoned, coming to dominate almost all of Skothar, coming to contain the descendants of their former slavelord Thonians into small sections of land. As the culture grew and became powerful though, it had devided. Having split apart into various 'tribal' groups after their becoming a horse-culture, these groups had themselves divided in philosophy and religion. One group, those who worshiped Tarastia, who had made them strong, had female warriors and still obeyed her strict rules of morality and justice. Others had strayed from the path, taking up the worship of Rathanos, who taught that women were inferior and should be kept isolated, not allowed to leave the confines of the tent unless every inch of skin was covered, including a veil over the face. This group had become less nomadic and more stationary, only mounting their horses when entering combat. They also had adopted polygamy, the use of incense and something called a 'blood brotherhood' which the authors of this tome do not deem appropriate to discuss. Naturally, these two cultures started to conflict, with the stronger Tarastian culture eventually vanquishing the other in 1600 BC. The Tarastian culture though had suffered grievous losses and could not maintain its level of existance, especially with the slow rise again of the Thonians. Tarastia left the coastlanders, now fully Jennite, as well as some remnants of the tribes loyal to her, but moved the majority of them into the Hollow World to maintain their civilization. GENDER There is not gender equality among the Jennites, but nor is there domination by either gender. Men lead each tribe, but if they fall and no male descendant is old enough to take power the tribe is then led by the queen instead. If the king and queen are both gone and there is no old enough male descendant, a female descendant will be made queen (for more on the leadership, see Domestic Relations below). Women fight alongside the men and as capably as the male warriors of the tribes, though many men still look upon them as worse combatants. Female warriors tend to be more focused on archery skills and are probably the finest archers in the Hollow World, better than the males, but the men are generally better at melee due to their greater weight and strength. While all Jennite warriors are expected to be in good physical shape in terms of strength, very few are overweight, as they rely on agility for their archery and horseback tactics and as such need to be fairly light. Some tribes, especially those who stay near the three borders, have laws that state no female may marry until she has slain a foe in combat. If she never does, she can never be wed. No gender is barred from any of the few trades practiced by the Jennites. RELIGION All Jennites in the Hollow World worship Tarastia and follow her codes of law. The worship is rather different than that done of her by the Milenians to the west. All queens and princesses are considered priestesses of Tarastia, even if they are not in possession of clerical skills (that is, they belong to other classes). Clerics may be of any gender of course. They lead the ceremonies of the tribe, wearing special robes that have been passed down along the generations, dating back to pre-Hollow World days. These robes have been magically enchanted so that they act as leather armor+2 and do not deteriorate with the effects of age. The worship itself is done by rituals that have also been passed down by one generation to the next, weekly ceremonies of thanks to Tarastia and special celebrations for festive occasions. All Jennites celebrate the same festivals, commemorating great military victories achieved with the help of Tarastia to agricultural cycle-based festivals to new moon celebrations. The religion of the Jennites is a far cry from the sacrifical rituals common in primitive tribes like the Neathar as well as from the intellectual religion of the more civilized nations like the Kogolor or Milenians. No Jennite doubts the existance of Tarastia or that they are her chosen peoples. Some souls, held to be horribly misguided, believe there are other deities (those of the Nithians and Milenians are most commonly believed in) and worship them. These who worship others are not exiled from the tribe, just thought to have something wrong with them. Perhaps they fell off a horse and smacked their head too hard or they tried to use some magic beyond their talents..whatever the reason they are to be pitied. AGE Children are raised by their parents, who have total say as to discipline. Occasionally older children and other relatives look after the younger children when both parents are required elsewhere. Childhood is not a time for games but nor is it a time to be apprenticed into a trade to learn. It is simply a time of general learning of morals and culture. The elderly are looked to for advice and decision-making sometimes, but usually those in their prime are trusted more to make key decisions. The elderly who hold the most respect are those who are still capable in their age, having not declined with the times. An elderly person no longer of caring for themselves at all will be exiled from the camp so as not to take the scant resources from those in need. Both children and the elderly (as well as pregnant women, the injured or sick and 'soft' outsider guests) travel in very simple carts or huge wagons, that also transport heavier goods. These carts and wagons are drawn by domesticated aurochs so as not to place burden on the prized horses. All capable of riding a horse do so and the moment that a youth is trusted to ride into combat (and thus on a regular basis also) is the most prized one of the growing-up process. DOMESTIC RELATIONS/LEADERS Each tribe is led by a king (or less frequently as mentioned above, a queen) who makes the decisions for the tribe. They are advised by several of the more skilled warriors and more respected priests and priestesses. The king or queen can never be dethroned by the tribe as a whole, but if both king and queen are killed and there are no heirs (or if a single king or queen is killed and there are no heirs) a new king is proclaimed by a cleric of Tarastia (NOTE:Any cleric can make this proclomation. It is sometimes a genuine announcement by Tarastia, sometimes a political move, sometimes just a cleric deciding one man has the talent to lead a tribe). All kings' authority is held to derive from divine ordinance by Tarastia. Some pastures are generally associated with certain tribes and are left to those tribes for the agricultural seasons and the Jennite infighting is almost always associated with one tribe taking the pastures of another too many times. When a foreign force makes an invasion of their lands or when they seek to make war on another nation, the leaders of a number of clans (however many feel the risk/opportunity is great enough) meet and together form a strategy to deal with the oppositionary forces. Being royalty holds little privelege. Kings and queens fight alongside their tribe and are responsible for the entire welfare of the clan. Prince and princesses are trained like other Jennites, but seeing as how they could one day be leaders they are also taught how to properly lead by their parents. In times of serious trouble, all tribes unite under one great chief selected by the individual kings and queens. SOCIAL STATUS There is little of a social hierarchy among the Jennites. Other than the respect for royalty, it boils down to skill - combat skill, craftsmanship, magical talent, horsemanship...if you're very good at something, you'll get more respect. There is very little looking down at those without exceptional abilities though. JUSTICE As mentioned in the Hollow World boxed set, the Jennites have a very strong sense of justice. They still follow the rules Tarastia handed them in the Outer World, as well as some that have been handed on down to her clerics since the move to the Hollow one. All Jennites have some legal knowledge and the kings and war leaders generally study all the laws and how they function. Many non-leading Jennites do the same, to better understand the will of Tarastia. It is a harsh and pragmatic system, but fair and equal. The Law. The Pandect of Tarista Tarista has bestowed upon the Jennites four cornerstones to build their lives upon. Each Jennite strives to maintain a superior level of the Pandect. The Pandect of Tarista consists of the following four topics: 1. Truth 2. Loyalty 3. Honor 4. Diligence Interpretation: The Clerics of Tarista have come to believe and to teach that the Pandect means: 1. Truth: Justice will eventually prevail over all evils, including the evils of falsehoods. There is no point therefor in lying as Tarista can see through the veils of deceit. Any person caught in a falsehood has their tongue removed as well as being branded with the symbol of the Pandect on their face. 2. Loyalty: The tribe is more important then any of it's members. It is important to look towards the well being of the tribe first then oneself second. If the tribe can not depend on a person how can it be right for a person to depend on the tribe. Punishment for treason to the tribe will result in death with the head of the offender being brought before the tribal leader as a token of final loyalty. 3. Honor: Any oath given is as timeless and unyielding as the stone the Pandect is inscribed on. To break ones oath or promise or to be less then desirable to the tribe in appearance or attitude. A person who does not uphold their honor is forced to undergo various punishments of dismemberment with a final ultimate option of banishment. 4. Diligence: A follower of Tarista must be ever diligent in their pursuit of justice. No matter how long it takes for the justice to be delivered the Jennite seeking it should not falter in that pursuit. The same attitude is carried over into the work ethic. Any work done should be done in the most efficient manner until it is completed. Failure to be diligent in a pursuit of important goal may result in loss of honor or loyalty. Note: The Jennites do not believe that any person is unable to make amends for their lifestyle, therefore punishments of death are only reserved for acts of treason or oath breaking of oaths sworn before the tribal leader (this is a form of treason in a way). Most crimes are dealt with forms of punishment ranging from branding to dismemberment. A Jennite accused of a crime has the right to challenge the accuser to a duel that both parties must fight until someone yields although fights to the death are not uncommon. This may also be used to get out of an unsatisfactory or immoral contract. This duel is the final word on matters in the tribe and must be witnessed by the tribal leader as well as a cleric of Tarista. Should this right be called upon between members of two different tribes it is the duty of the leader of the two tribes tribe to fight as well. Often these duels turn into skirmishes between entire tribes. It is customary for the looser of any duel in the Jennite Holdings to loose his left hand should he loose a one on one duel. If, for example, a Jennite warrior must be saved from one on one combat by another Jennite they must immediately take it upon themselves to cut off their left hand. The Jennite in this battle must call upon the aid of another for this to be forced upon him. No Jennite will enter interrupt a single melee without a call for aid under penalty of loosing their right hand. FOREIGN RELATIONS The Jennites war with all three of their neighbors and also trade with both empires. The relationship with the Milenians is even more love-hate than the one with the Nithians. The Milenians greatly respect Jennite craftsmanship and consider their works of art unparalleled. Similarily, they have great disdain for 'barbaric' habits like women fighting in combat or execution of prisoners. The Jennites likewise view the Milenians in a mixed light. They greatly respect the fact that the Milenians are their only neighbors who have seen the wisdom of Tarastia and worship her but they find the Milenian polytheism and living in one location always to be totally wrong-headed. The Milenian use of captured Jennites as slaves angers the Jennites to no small extent as does the Jennite practice of executing Milenian prisoners. While their styles of worship differ greatly, there is often close contact between the Milenian church of Tarastia and the Jennites. The church often defends Jennites in political debates in Milenia and with the emergence of the church as the leading body of Phos the Jennites have gotten more defenders in the Milenian lands. Jennite trade is usually conducted by barter rather than direct buying and selling, whether dealing with the Milenians or Nithians. Jennites usually get gold and silver and other goods not in their lands or that they have the skill to make (weapons are common too) while often sending art objects and occasionally agricultural products over to the Milenians in return. DIET Living off the land is the way the Jennites get their food. They eat the meat from their auroch-herds, the wheat and barley from their fields and often hunt small game such as rabbits. They are no fans of the fancy meals served in the Milenian and Nithian cities, seeing food as sustenance and little else. MAGIC The Jennite society is not one dominated by magic but nor are they fearful of magic the way the Antalians are. The Jennites have no term for wizard - their word best translates into 'sooth-sayer' in most other languages. This is due to their main use of magic - to tell the future. The sooth-sayer employs a bundle of twigs (all reputedly magical, though some are just wood) for this purpose. Many sooth-sayers come from the families in which such powers supposedly run. The ancestors of such families were supposedly inflicted with a curse that took them out of the natural scheme of things when they tried to plunder a shrine of Tarastia centuries ago. The members of these families who are deemed to be sooth-sayers speak in high-pitched voices as part of their unnaturalness and wear the kind of symbol-covered robes one associates with wizards of the arcane. False sooth-sayers can expect no mercy from their tribesmen and if their predictions lead to disaster are executed by the tribe. A wrong prediction without terrible consequences can still lead to exile from a tribe. Other 'typical' magic-users are also found among the Jennites of course as can other types of not so typical mages. No great respect is given to any wielder of magic unless they are very skilled, certainly less respect than similarily powered priests would get. (NOTE:The Sooth-sayers were capable of divination spells in the Outer World but due to the Spell of Preservation lost these spells. Now it's all guesswork, much like an astrologer in our world) MAGICAL ITEMS/SPELLS Apart from the typical spells and magical items common to all nations and civilizations, there are some that are only found among the Jennites. Crafting of magical items is not irregular among the Jennite tribes. NEW MAGICAL ITEMS Antlered Mask - this is a variety of horse-armor, a mask worn over the head of some Jennite steed. Different types of masks are found, but the most common type is one mounted with antlers like those found on a stag. If these masks are properly blessed/enchanted, they provide the horse with the additional speed of a stag, enabling them to move much more rapidly when need be. The horse still tires just as quickly though and the power only activates itself in times of danger (though no limit on number of times per day). Horseshoes of flight - (NOTE:All magical shoes that exist for humanoids can be found in horse varieties among the Jennites) Very rare even among the Jennites, horseshoes of flight are considered a great treasure to possess. They allow a horse to fly at half its normal walking rate for one turn per level of the item's creator (typically 25 turns). Owners of such items are typically employed as scouts or to counter the flying mounts of the Milenians. Arrows of infection - Arrows of infection operate similar to most arrows, but cause a minor disease to settle in over the wound inflected preventing the wounds from healing naturally. Only mystical means can be used to cure this infection (NOTE:The mystic class's ability to heal self is included as are Cure Disease spells). Arrows of sharpness - Arrows so enchanted that they inflict much more damage than possible normally. Roll a d4+1 and multiply this by what the arrow's damage should be to calculate the actual harm done. If the DM includes critical wounds or crippling blows, such arrows have double the normal chance to inflict such wounds. Erilag's bow - A blessing and a curse combined in one, this is a unique and very odd item. If a remove curse is cast on this item, the curse is removed alongside the attached blessing. The bow gives an added +2 to hit and damage but subtracts 20/30/40 from the range of the archer. When an arrow is fired from a bow of Erilag, roll d10. On a 1-3, the damage done is doubled (if the shot hits). On a 4-5, the arrow automatically hits but does minimal damage (the +2 from the bow is included). On a 6, the arrow transforms into a Rock Python snake in mid-flight (if a hit is scored, the python's damage is applied and the snake will continue to hinder the target). On a 7-10, conduct the shot normally. Everfull Gorytus (combination bow-case/quiver described in Combat section) - As the name implies, this is a gorytus which always has an arrow or bow ready for use. Any magical or poisoned or blessed arrow placed in this quiver becomes a plain old arrow though any bow placed in retains charms. If it used to produce bows, they too come out as a standard non-magical Jennite bow. Tokens of Luck. Being a very superstitious people the Jennites have developed a form of magic to help them deal with the supernatural. These items often take the form of jewelry (pins, rings, brooches, pendants, etc.) These items usually have bestowed upon them a slight magical energy that grants a single boon of some sort. Possibly single events may include, +1 to a die roll, +1 to AC for one attack or A second chance at a saving throw. Once the token has been used once it looses it's magical nature. Tokens of Fate. These items possibly controlled or created by the soothsayers of the Jennites also take the form of jewelry. The wearers of these tokens are smiled upon by Tarista and usually end up in the right place at the right time. If a wearer of this item is forced to choose from a group of random outcomes the most beneficial will be chosen. These items have 1d4 charges on them. Once the charges are used the item is no longer magical. Tokens of Sight. These magical items take the form of necklaces made of various precious metals. The wearer of these rare items do not undergo any penalty for long range missile attacks. NOTE:Many other types of enchanted arrows and jewelry are also found among the Jennites, too many to list here NEW PRIEST SPELLS Guardian of the Dead Level:5 Range: 1 burial mound Duration:2 years per level of caster - As the Jennites give the dead great honor and they fear ransacking of burial mounds (See the Burial section later) they often put up mystical defenses to protect the dead and their possessions. This spell is only castable after a long ritual that takes 5 hours. The entire burial mound is infused with the defensive magics of Tarastia, creating a number of effects for the duration of the spell. Firstly, the tomb can not be detected normally except by family members or clerics of Tarastia - otherwise magic must be employed. Secondly, any coming to the area with evil intents is attacked by two spectres or eight topis (see X8 or DMR2). Third, anyone trying to defile the bodies or thieve an item causes an electric field to form in the mound causing d4 damage per round to all present for 10 rounds. The second and third effects only activate themselves once the entire duration of the casting - if they have been set off once, they will not come out again.. Sense Falseness Level:6 Range:40' Duration:1 round per level of caster - The clerical version of a lie detector. If the target of this spell knows themselves to be lying, the cleric will know. There is no saving throw. If the target of the spell has been misled themselves and believes themselves to be honest though this information will not come out nor can the priest get by a Mind Barrier spell (if the target had somehow been able to learn this spell in the Hollow World and had cast it). If a cleric casting it does run into a Mind Barrier, they will perceive ALL answers of the target to be true. NEW SPECIALTY MAGE The Tatooist - Jennites often tattoo themselves (see Clothing/Appearance section). Little do outsiders know that such tattoos can often be magical! A variety of effects can be enplaced by a specialty mage known as a Tatooist, who is described here. Benefits:Tatooist only require a 13 INT, as opposed to the 16 usually required for a Hollow World spellcaster. Tatooists have access to a variety of magical tattooing spells described at the end of this HWR. Tatooists use the Saving Throw tables of a priest. Problems:No non-Tattooist can have more than 2 magical tattoos at one time and no effect can be placed twice on any one being. No Tattoist may have more than 5 magical tattoos at any one time. Tattooists can cast standard magic-user spells, but learn them at much slower rates. Spell Chart (Tatoos castable daily listed first,mage spells second) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 - - - - - - - - 2 2/1 - - - - - - - - 3 2/1 1 - - - - - - - 4 2/2 1 - - - - - - - 5 2/2 2 - - - - - - - 6 3/2 2 1 - - - - - - 7 3/2 2 2 - - - - - - 8 3/2 2/1 2 1 - - - - - 9 3/2 2/1 2 2 - - - - - 10 3/2 2/2 2/1 2 1 - - - - 11 3/3 3/2 2/1 2 2 - - - - 12 3/3 3/2 2/1 2 2 1 - - - 13 3/3 3/2 3/2 2 2 1 - - - 14 4/3 3/2 3/2 2/1 2 2 - - - 15 4/3 3/2 3/2 2/1 2 2 1 - - 16 4/3 4/2 3/2 2/2 2 2 2 - - 17 4/3 4/3 3/2 3/2 2 2 2 1 - 18 4/3 4/3 3/2 3/2 2/1 2 2 1 - 19 4/3 4/3 4/2 3/2 2/1 2 2 2 - 20 4/4 4/3 4/3 3/2 2/1 2 2 2 1 21 4/4 4/3 4/3 3/2 2/2 2/1 2 2 1 22 4/4 4/4 4/3 4/2 3/2 2/1 2 2 1 23 4/4 4/4 4/3 4/2 4/2 2/2 2 2 2 24 5/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 3/2 2 2 2 25 5/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/3 4/2 3 2 2 26 5/4 4/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 3/1 2 2 27 5/4 5/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 4/1 3 2 28 5/4 5/4 5/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 3 3 29 5/4 5/4 5/4 4/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 3/1 3 30 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 4/3 4/3 4/2 4/1 3 31 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/3 4/3 4/3 4/1 4 32 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/3 4/3 4/2 4/1 33 6/4 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/3 4/2 4/1 34 7/5 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/2 5/1 35 7/5 6/5 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/3 5/1 36 7/5 6/5 6/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/4 5/2 Customs:Tattooists often cover themselves with all sorts of tattoos of all sorts of colors and styles and are very distinguishable from other Jennites, even those who are freqent objects of their work. The Tattoists have a set of phrases they use to communicate with one another that few other Jennites can understand and no non-Jennties can comprehend. Cultural Weapons:Axe/hand,dagger,bow/long (special) Cultural Armor:Leather armor ENTERTAINMENT No fancy-schmancy operettas for the Jennites. Instead, they love to wrestle, drink and hunt for enjoyment. Contests are also common, whether weapon-skill or riding ones (many equestrian type contests occur obviously). The Jennites occasionally play music, favoring the flute or lyrical pieces. Also simple percussion instruments made of stretched auroch-hide are used. The most 'intellectual' of Jennite entertainments is a fancy board-game they play. The boards are simple wood, but covered with a variety of designs and drawings each of which is integral to the game and which are in a series of interlying squares, designed as such (excuse my poor artwork:) The figures differ from board AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA to board but the outmost square ABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBA is always stags, the second ABCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCBA square ('B') is diamonds and ABCDDDDDDDDDDDDDCBA each 'C' would be a horseman. ABCDEEEEEEEEEEEDCBA Boards differ in size, the ABCDEFFFFFFFFFEDCBA larger ones home to more ABCDEFGGGGGGGFEDCBA complex and longer games. ABCDEFGHHHHHGFEDCBA ABCDEFGHIJJIGFEDCBA ABCDEFGHHHHHGFEDCBA ABCDEFGGGGGGGFEDCBA ABCDEFFFFFFFFFEDCBA ABCDEEEEEEEEEEEDCBA ABCDDDDDDDDDDDDDCBA ABCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCBA ABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA These boards are often liked by outsiders for their design, not understanding the complex game played on them. (CONTINUED IN SECOND POST) Many opponents of "big government" assert or imply that bigness is of itself inefficient. This is an odd complaint to hear from executives of General Motors - Garry Wills *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #509 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, July 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 510 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Part 2/2 (long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:14:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Part 2/2 (long) Order of section two: Work How others view them Burial Tools Clothing/Appearance Critters Combat Art Magical Tattoos Horse Notes Festivals Sample NPCs Bibliography WORK The Jennites take pride in their work, but mostly do it because it is neccesary for the survival of their tribe - they work for communal reasons rather than personal. Often a Jennite tribesperson skilled in a trade will not work mostly in that field because the tribe does not need it - rather, they will go into some work the tribe does need at which they may not be as adept. The concept of being paid to do work is utterly foreign to the Jennites. Even when they trade, it is for other goods rather than for coin. HOW OTHERS VIEW THEM Andrieus, a Milenian sculptor: "These Jennite savages create some impressive works despite their utter lack of civilization. It is startling that a people so barbaric, that can't even build a house, can produce such fine works that normally only us artistes should be able to make. If I were to hazzard a guess, it would be their close interaction with the natural elements that allows them to make such exquisite portrayals of various animals. I am sure that should they come to accept civilization, hardly likely of course, that such works would soon be history. A little bit of culture would ruin the lovely designs of the primitive mind I believe." Grintinos, a Milenian cleric of Tarastia and Lighthouse scholar: "One must admire the commitment to honesty and justice found in the Jennites. I wish my countrymen could learn from their example in this matter. Imagine it! A place where bribes are not only not commonplace, but do not exist at all. A place where justice is given the respect she is due. We had some Jennite priestesses and priests here..oh, the heads of their religion are *royalty*, a sign they have true respect for Tarastia...where was I? Oh yes, we had some of their clerical figures here a few months ago and they were absolutely wonderful. Suffering from a bit of culture shock obviously, but kind and outgoing. One should not judge them harshly, as my countrymen are prone to do, simply because their habits differ in many ways. They might be able to learn some things from us, but there are things we can learn from them. Al-Kilab, a Nithian foot soldier: "Bloody savages. Even those Milenian dogs realize the Jennites are such. They bombard you with arrows, scared to fight you one-on-one. I laugh when I see one off his horse in a fight..they just look so stupid..they obviously haven't been trained the slightest in REAL combat rather than their wimpy arrow-and-horse stuff. They even let their women fight! Talk about wimpiness! Men should protect their women, not rely upon them for help! I am confident we could wipe them out should they ever adopt real combat tactics. Unfortunately, the scum won't let us fight them the real way. Wimps!" Note:They of course see themselves as superior to other cultures, enforced by the Spell of Preservation as well as typical ethnocentrism BURIAL Burials are a major affair among the Jennites, as they see the departed off to the "heavenly pasture". Jennites are buried under large mounds, with a tunnel dug out into the tomb itself. Larger tombs are made for great warriors, priests or leaders. The deceased is buried along with all their earthly possessions, ranging from weaponry to jewelry and art objects to horses (which are killed if still alive when their owner passes away). As the nomads are sometimes not likely to pass by the mound again, they occasionally set up defenses of it because the Milenians, Nithians and Tanagoroans all have targeted burial mounds for theft. Also, due to the nomadic nature, wife and husband are rarely buried together, though the slain of a major battle are often buried in one tomb. TOOLS The tools made and used by the Jennites are rather simple inventions. Ploughs, stone files, nails, mallets, poorly assembled ladders and the like are produced by the Jennites. The one thing they do manufacture well are cauldrons - huge, flawless ones at that. Foreigners believe these huge cauldrons, carried around in the wagons, are magical and used for bizarre rituals. CLOTHING/APPEARANCE The phyiscal appearance of Jennite tribespeople can be found in the Hollow World boxed set. As mentioned before, they often decorate themselves with tatoos, sometimes random patterns, sometimes animal and monster designs. Both men and women wear a wide assortment of jewelry (sometimes magical, with usual enchantments or supposed enchantments including Protection from Undead or 'good luck' charms), including (but not limited to) diadems, necklaces, belts, bracelets, amulets, pendants, earrings, torques and rings. The more costly the better. CRITTERS Apart from the animals identified in the Hollow World books, there are several rarer monsters and animals present. Lions, wild boars, hippogriffs and even blue dragons are known to exist in the Jennite plains. Two of the more important critters are the cheval and the werehorse. The chevalls (described in B10) live among the horses of the Jennites, ensuring that they are protected from dangers or the EXTREMELY rare Jennite who mistreats their steed. They consider the Jennites by far the most civilized peoples and fight alongside them. Their actual presence isn't known to most Jennites but they exist in many stories and myths of the tribes. Their biggest worry are the werehorses, who also exist in many Jennite tribes (there is even one tribe of 'Jennites' that consists solely of them!). The werehorse was created by Rathanos to avenge his loss to Tarastia during the war of the Outer World tribes. They seek to undermine and damage the Jennites in any way possible but have had a limited impact. New Monster Werehorse Armor Class:6(9 if in human form) Hit Dice: 5+1* Move:120' (40') Attacks:2 hooves Damage:1d6/1d6 No. Appearing:Varies Save as: Fighter 5 Morale:12 Treasure Type:C Alignment:Chaotic (wholly devoted to Rathanos) XP Value: 400 Notes:Treat lycanthropy the same as with all other wereanimals. Exception:Werehorses cannot summon Jennite horses who have been trained so well they resist the charm effects. They still can summon horses that have not yet been trained or that are native to other lands. COMBAT Jennites bombard the opposition with a storm of arrows to start any encounter. These arrows may be blessed, magically enchanted (arrows that cause darkness, enchanted by clerics, cause great havoc to Hollow Worlders who rarely are exposed to dark), thorned, 'screaming', poisoned (from adders caught for such a purpose) or otherwise unusual but most of the arrows are standard. Once the opponents close or the arrow storm ends, they switch to melee approaches. They are not blood-thirsty and will retreat if out-numbered or out-classed (the exception is if they are defending an important burial mound, at which point they will fight to defend their ancestors). They do not give up - if the enemy seeks to follow them, they will adopt hit-and-run tactics, not meeting a superior enemy directly, relying on their excellent archery and horsemanship for success. Jennite troops are highly disciplined and obey the orders of their commanders. The nearby Nithians and Milenians both fear Jennite tribesfolk in combat and worry about their borders despite the fact the Jennites don't raid all that frequently. The one aspect of their combat tactics which is most barbaric is their tendency to scalp slain enemies. Their combat equiptment is summarized in the Hollow World boxed set with a few exceptions. There is the gorytus, a combination bow-case/quiver. It is larger than a standard quiver and wider due to the bow-storage and is worn from the belt. Most Jennites wear two, one on each side, giving them a large supply of arrows (as opposed to the one mentioned in the HW players' book). A flap seals the gorytus when riding. Some weapons used only occasionally by their neighbors are seen more frequently among the Jennites - flails (treat as maces), lassoes (used to capture horses, treat as a whip with half the damage but with the 'special effects' of a net) and special daggers. These include ones with inward-curving blades (treat as normal daggers) and the akinae, a short double-sided dagger attached to the sheath on the left leg in place of the normal daggers when used. A wielder of an akinae gets -1 to hit, due to the extra caution required, but is 5% more likely to inflict double damage. Magical versions of all these are available in Jennite lands. Finally if you are playing AD&D the amazons of the Jennites do not get the bonuses in the complete priest/fighter handbooks because their reputation is well-known in nearby lands. ART Most of the Jennite art is small and of a decorative nature. It is not art for art's sake but rather trying to make practical objects look nice. Many outsiders enjoy their art though, especially the Milenians. The one type of art at which they are a total failure is their pottery. Many of these objects are also made to please the spirits of the ancestors who watch over the Jennites from their viewpoint in the heavenly pasture. Animal and monster motifs are very common among Jennite artwork - goats,eagles,dragons,horses,boars,lions,swans,beavers,griffins,stags (most common motif),leopards and many creatures that exist only in myth. Many outsiders of course may assume these imaginary creatures exist in Jennite lands when they see them alongside normal animals. Floral patterns are also common. Much of their weaponry and horsewear (harnesses,saddlecloths,reins,bridles) is designed fancifully..their horses tend to be VERY colorfully decorated, offending the austere tastes of the Nithian and Milenian military. Fighting animals are often depicted on saddles, as this is thought to make the horse more fierce and effective in battle. SAMPLE MAGICAL TATTOOS - - DMs and Jennite Tattoist PCs are free to devise their own additions - these are just to serve as a guideline - - if two tattoos exist in the same location neither has any effect Level 1:Ignore Cold Duration:1 turn per level of caster Design:Flame, any size Effect:Makes the affected being ignore temperatures down to 0 degree Farenheit. Treat lower temperatures as if they were 40 degrees higher..people would function as well at -20 as they normally would at 20 over. Also reduces damage from magical cold attacks by half. Range:Touch Time To Inscribe:1 round Placement to Have Effect:Anywhere on body Level 1:Nonmagical Tattoo Duration:Permanent Design:Any Effect:Places a non-magical tattoo on the target's skin. No save if unwanted. The tattoo may take up 4 inches per level of the caster. Very intricate designs may be made with this spell. Range:Touch Time to Inscribe:5 rounds Level 2:Swim Duration:1 day per level of caster Design:Rainbow Trout, 3" long Effect:Allows a non-swimmer to become a good (but not great) swimmer for the duration of the tattoo. Also removes all fear of water. Range:20 feet Time To Inscribe:3 rounds Placement to Have Effect:Upper Arm (either). Does not work if this part of the body is covered. Level 2:Hover Duration:3 turns Design:Feather on top of sandal, 1' long Effect:Wearer of this tattoo defies gravity to a limited extent. They may hover up to 20' above the ground as long as this tattoo is in effect. Spell-casters may not use magic while under the effects of this tatoo Range:Touch Time to Inscribe:Instantaneous Placement to Have Effect:Anywhere Level 3:Eagle Eye Duration:1 week Design:Eagle eye, roughly 2" from top to bottom and from side to side Effect:Improves the wearer's vision to that of an eagle. Does not work on the blind. Range:40 feet Time to Inscribe:1 turn Placement to Have Effect:Forehead. No effect if helmet worn over forehead. Level 3:Beserk Duration:1 battle Design:Crossed swords, any size Effect:Instills up to two recipients with a beserker rage (+3 AC, +4 damage, double damage on 20, inflict wound on self on 1). The recipient(s) may remove the effects whenever desired. Range:10 yards Time to Inscribe: 1 round Placement to Have Effect:Chest Level 3:Shadow Guard Duration:1 round per level of caster Design:Small dark splotch Effect:The wearer of this tattoo becomes blurry and shadowy, making them harder to hit. -2 to AC and +15% to Hide in Shadows. Range:Touch Time to Inscribe:1 round Placement to Have Effect:Center of Right Hand. Does not work if metal gauntlets are being worn Level 4:Electric Aura Duration:1 turn Design:Lightning bolt, 7" long Effect:Surrounds the tattoist with an invisible electric field. Anyone coming within 2' of the caster takes d6 damage per round. Any blow to the caster not done with a wooden weapon causes d10 damage to the attacker as well if they hit. Range:Tattoist only Time to Inscribe:Instantaneous Placement to Have Effect:Anywhere on body. Level 5:Ignore Elements Duration:1 hour per level of tattoist Design:Whirlpool surrounded by flame surrounded by rock. Takes up whole hand Effect:The wearer of this tattoo totally ignores fire, cold, lightning or rockfall. Note:indirect damage still applies - you can suffocate if you get drowned, your clothes still can burn up and if you're buried under a mountain you ain't gonna live long. Magical effects do half damage, save for a quarter. Elementals and Fundamentals do 1/3 damage, save for one-sixth. Range:Touch Time to Inscribe:4 rounds Placement to Have Effect:Either hand. Cannot work if anything is worn on the hands. Level 6:Double Vision Duration:1 hour Design:Small eye inside a larger one. Size of a human eye. Effect:Allows the caster to see behind him with a second, magical pair of eyes, of 20/20 vision. Prevents backstabbing and surprise and is just darn handy overall. Does work on the blind. Range:20 feet Time to Inscribe:2 rounds Placement to Have Effect:Forehead Level 7:Multiple Tattoo I Duration:Instantaneous Effect:Allows the caster to place twice as many tattoos as normally allowed by the particular spell in the same amount of time normally taken to inscribe the standard allowed by that spell. Range:Touch Level 8:Fleet Feet Duration:1 year Design:Horse-foot. Size of a horse's foot. Effect:Doubles the movement speed of the target. The recipient ages 5 years in the one year this effect is in place. Range:Touch Time to Inscribe: 1 turn Placement to have Effect:Stomach. Does not work if stomach covered. Level 8:Treble Duration, effect, size of design needed all tripled on any other tattoo. Takes one additional round to inscribe. OTHER HORSE NOTES As has been pointed out directly and indirectly numerous times, the Jennites are a horse-oriented peoples. Several topics not discussed before are thus worth mentioning here. There are no special horse-trainers among the Jennites, each tribesperson being counted on to train horses well. From youth after all their lives revolve around the equine. They are trained in all aspects as children - avoiding obstacles, shooting from horseback, mounting and dismounting moving horses without problems. These are the 'games' of the Jennite youth, as are numerous other, similar horseback experiences. Two other notes of minor concern - firstly, the more valuable and prized horses have their ears branded to signify this worth and secondly the horses' manes are trimmed so as not to interfere with the archers' line of sight. FESTIVALS The Jennites celebrate a number of festivals during their year. One week a year is reserved for the Great Trials when all the tribes gather in the central plains. The festivals includes horse races, horseback archery and other contests pitting the greatest Jennite warriors and horsefolk against one another. Grand prizes are often given to the winners of the Great Trials. The Jennites have one another national festival - the Day of Oaths. On this solemn day Jennites enter into long term contracts of any sort. During a ceremony before their tribal leader's fire, a Jennite gives his promise to follow a set contract for a set amount of time. To break this oath is unheard of as it means death for the offender. A man that breaks his oath can not be trusted and is therefor a liability to the tribe and is banished from it. Most of the festivals though take place in individual tribes. Celebrations for births, weddings or skirmish victories are held and annual ceremonies of various types, including the 'founding' dates for each tribe. SAMPLE NPCS Triodian History:Triodian was born 44 cycles ago in a tribe that traditionally has roamed the northern border of the Plains. As a result, they often skirmished with the Tanagoroan peoples living north of them. Triodian's mother died in one of these battles and he has sworn to avenge her death. This need for revenge and the conflict with the Tanagoroans has consumed most of his time. He has not married and has little time for other activities. Personality:A very hateful warrior, Triodian's lone kindness is to his father and his siblings. He is a family man and a Jennite nationalist but does not do a good job of applying the law of Tarastia universally, not following it when it comes to dealing with foreigners. He can easily come across as cold, distracted or simply a man obsessed, which he is. Does not back down in combat even when it would be wise to do so. Appearance:Triodian has skin slightly darker than usual for a Jennite tribesman but is mostly normal in how he looks. He does bear quite a number of scars from various battles and is better-built than most Jennites. Nothing truly outlandish or outstanding here though. Combat Notes:He is a 4th level fighter. AC 6 (Leather, Dexterity Bonus); hp 16; at 1;D 1d12 (skilled with sword) or d6+1 (arrow);save F4; ML 11;AL N; S 12, I 9; W 7; D 14; Co 11; Ch 8. Languages:Neathar,Jennite. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Bravery (W+2), Storytelling (Ch) Allasia History:Allasia was born 22 cycles ago to a small but otherwise typical Jennite tribe. She has seen her share of combat but is mostly busy learning smithing so as to take the place of the aging and much honored and skilled craftsman Erinithal. She is being courted by the tribe's weaver, a man named Trulodon. Right now her eyes are set at the future when her teacher will no longer be able to work his craft and she must take his place. Personality:Allasia is generally a kind soul, willing to help out a tribesperson in trouble and fairly chatty. Of course she is much less kind towards outsiders and is as violent towards them as your typical Jennite is. She is very religious and guides her life by how she believes Tarastia would want her to act - she is continually wondering how her diety would react if Tarastia were in her boots. Appearance:Standing 5'3" and being a bit on the thin side, Allasia is hardly imposing but is certainly capable of handling herself in a fight. She prides herself on her jewelry, all of which is her own work. If someone is critical of this work she will be highly offended. She is fairly average in appearance. Combat Notes:She is a 2nd level fighter. AC 7 (Leather) ; hp 8; at 1; D 1d8 (sword) or d6+1 (arrow); save F2; ML 9; Al L; S 10, I 12, W 11, D 12, Co 8, Ch 10. Languages:Neathar, Jennite. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Mysticism (W), Craftsman (Smithing) (I+1) Diothor History:Born 58 cycles ago, Diothor started on the path to Tarastia like all Jennites. He though showed even more talent in understanding the justice systems of the lands and as a result was apprenticed to the tribal cleric, Erisica. She saw even more promise in him, thinking him a likely future priest. Her judgement proved right and Diothor was officially made a priest 22 cycles ago. He married soon after and is the proud father of four children. Personality:Diothor is very dull to listen to. He is good with facts and logic but is hardly an inspiring orator or lecturer. He doesn't understand why some people just aren't as interested in learning as much as they possibly can. Diothor is also somewhat of a wet blanket, opposing alchohol and some other entertainments. Appearance:Diothor stands 5'9" and is of average weight. He wears a medallion of Tarastia but otherwise dresses like all other Jennite horsefolk (with the exception of the bow at the ready). His hair is gray now and he isn't able to withstand as much physical strain as he could in his younger days. Combat Notes:He is a 6th level cleric of Tarastia. AC 5 (Chain) ; hp 19; at 1; D 1d8 (axe); save C6; ML 10; Al L; S 9, I 14, W 17, D 11, Co 6, Ch 11. Languages:Neathar, Jennite, Tanagoroan. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Honor Tarastia (W), Mapping (I), Knowledge (Jennite legal system) (I), Animal Empathy (Horse) (W) Pinioca History:Pinioca was introduced to this world 31 cycles ago, the daughter of an advisor to the royals of the tribe. She was very intrigued by foreign politics and when she got older she decided to join the spies of the Jennites who helped find weak spots in opposing defenses. For the past five years she has served well in this duty and has earned considerable praise from this law-and-order people for her dirty work. She is single and will likely never meet anyone she finds as thrilling as her work. Personality:Willing to accept any challenge for the good of the nation, Pinioca is a brave soul. She loves action and adventure and gets bored rather easily (though when she has work to do she is very patient and cautious). She is not evil, just less constrained by rules than other Jennites. She would never violate the laws of Tarastia but often violates the spirit of them or bends them considerably. Appearance:Pinioca stands only 4'11" and is under 100 pounds, a wiry and scrawny woman. She dresses in concealing clothes and almost always has a Fleet Feet tattoo inscribed on herself. She is slightly attractive but might be too thin for the tastes of some Jennite men. Combat Notes:She is a 5th level rake. AC 5 (Leather+Dexterity Bonus) ; hp 15; at 1; D 1d4+1 (akinae+2, strength penalty) or d6+1 (arrow), save T5; ML 10; Al C; S 8, I 16, W 12, D 14, Co 9, Ch 13. Languages:Neather,Jennite,Milenian,Nithian. General Skills: Riding (Horse) (D), Stealth (City) (D+1), Profession (Scout) (I), Deceive (Ch) Other equiptment:Ring of Safety (2), Everfull Gorytus BIBLIOGRAPHY The authors used the following books and webpages in their research on the Scythian and Sarmatian cultures on which the Jennites are based. If you are interested in learning more about the horse-archers of ancient times, these may be a good starting place. Scythians by Tamara Talbot Rice - a very good oversight of the Scythian peoples, their customs, their times and their culture. World of the Scythians by Renate Rolle - this struck me as less likely to be factual than Rice's book and more prone to assumptions on the culture but does bring up some new information and topics not covered in Rice's earlier work http://www.csen.org/article%20review.html - very brief discussion of the warrior-priestesses http://wsrv.clas.virginia.edu/~bam4c/NOTE0227.HTM - some notes on gruesome Scythian rituals Again COMMENTS! CRITICISM! What was done well? What was done poorly? What doesn't mesh with your vision of Mystara? What changes could be made? Anyways, hope you all liked it. I don't like to write. I like to have written. - Gloria Steinem Many opponents of "big government" assert or imply that bigness is of itself inefficient. This is an odd complaint to hear from executives of General Motors - Garry Wills *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:21:27 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? In a message dated 98-07-15 12:54:03 EDT, mdalmonte@provincia.ra.it writes: <I'm not even sure that Thanatos is really evil. He is the immortal of >death, and he basically embodies the sphere of entropy, but IMO his >personality is not really evil in the way of Orcus' or Arik's.>> The right question should be then: is Death Evil? I don't think Death should be labeled evil, but just "natural", though I agree there are different kinds of death. >> my outlook on thanatos is that he is not so much a symbol of death as much as he symbolizes the destruction of everything. death in itself is not evil as death is a part of life. birth counterbalances death. however, if t-bone gets his way everything dies. and there are no beings left to give those births. so imo thanatos is definitely evil. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:15:18 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan >Please send me > "The Golden Khan of Ethengar - Player's Guides" >as a zipped file. >thanx, >tim Sorry all, but "me-too" please? Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:48:22 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs >Of course, even a society with very loose or non-existent marriage laws >could still have an incest taboo. In the absence of evidence to the >contrary, we should assume that Alphatia (and probably every Mystaran >society except possibly Thothia and/or Hollow World Nithia) does indeed >have a taboo against mating with close relatives. But how would they know who was a close relative if children don't even necessarily know both their parents? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:12:19 +1000 From: stan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) At 21:42 12 07 98 EDT, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-12 17:54:52 EDT, herve@hotmail.com writes: > >> Actually, I tend to think that the big power >> blocks are out of character for a fantasy setting, and that places like >> Hule, Thyatis and Alphatia are way too large. Historically, few empires >> were that large, and when such large empires came to be, they didn't >> last that long (though on Mystara, magic helps). > >Well, two out of the three empires have now been cut down considerably >in size. Hule, I suppose, will remain unified until something happens to >the Master -- then I would expect that it should collapse into chaos. I wouldn't automatically think so. Hule lasted a long time with no noted strong leader during its' nearly 2500 year history. OK, you had Hosadus twice and the Master but it was only when the barbarians united and threatened Hule directly was Hoasaus reincarnated to lead Hule. There is no indication that after the loss of as a great leader that Hule ever collapsed into chaos. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:38:57 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs ><< With that said, why couldn't the humans of Wendarian (or another > Mystaran) society have gravitated towards the Elfin norm of not > participating in "marriage" per se? It could prove to be quite interesting > to develop. >> > >Thank you, Jenni, it seems that you have understood me. >A point I had in mind but not yet written down is the >following: Why should those elves, sometimes arrogant as >only elves can be, always adapt their lifes to human customs, >but not a single time the humans to elven customs? >The consequence would be that the elves are a inferior race >or perceive themselves as one, at least. I'm sure that nobody >of my readers would see it that way. Well, potential reasons why the Elves would adopt human ways... a) The Immortals. Assuming that marriage is a religious affair (a full church do :) the Immortals have the most influence over whether marriage is used or not. Alfheimers worship Ilsundal (so does Wendar? I dont know...). Eiryndul wanted the Shiye to be more warlike, less wussy than the Alfheimers. Not too surprising if he made them more human, then... (Or perhaps it was merely a different, more stereotypical writer from TSR...) The Savage Coast elves worship human Immortals (probably Valerias - in which case marriage is pretty well a must). b) Being Outnumbered. Its only natural that the minority adopt the customs of the majority if they are living in close contact. Alfheim is (was?) isolationist, so thats that one solved... The Shiye are surrounded by humans (admittedly ones who dont hold marriage in much regard :). As for the Savage Coast, there are just a smattering of elves over 2000 miles (Torreon and the Barony of Reslar in Eusdria housing the majority - both Torreon and Eusdria are predominantly human cultures, where the elves would have a great deal of contact with humans). (Incidentally, all the other SC races (except possibly bar aranea) I imagine all have marriage customs - but then they all had a great deal of contact with humans too (Aranea just used to eat them, apparently :)) And of course, the poor tortles don't marry. :( (Tortles get a raw deal. I hope Mother Ocean takes good care of her babies...) c) As for the Belcadiz elves, they are a completely different offshoot of the elven race - originating from the elven colony near Blackmoor. If thats the case, these guys have been in close contact with humans for a long, long time... I always imagined Wendar as Canada :). As far as human/elven culture goes, the humans and the elves coexist, but the elves have the definite upper hand (Wendar is an ELVEN realm, after all). Perhaps in Wendar humans dont marry? Its the humans who are isolated here (elves are cold resistant (at least AD+D ones are :) so they would be able to move around frozen Wendar easier than the humans) after all. Also I think Wendar elves were around before Wendarian humans. So perhaps the humans took to worshipping the elven Immortals over the years, as well, in their isolation... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:14:37 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Now great Khan, you know the difference between the real world and Mystara don't you? That message, if you had left the earlier part, was obviously in reference to "any real world cultures that don't have a marriage system". JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: > << Yeah, they're called "extinct". >> > > Like the Elves of Alfheim? > > A really funny remark. > > Jamuga Khan > > "The Mighty Khan was not amused." > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:47:33 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? : ><death, and he basically embodies the sphere of entropy, but IMO his >personality is not really evil in the way of Orcus' or Arik's.>> > >The right question should be then: is Death Evil? I don't think Death >should be labeled evil, but just "natural", though I agree there are >different kinds of death. Thanatos is a nihilist. He hates existance itself. He wants everything to cease to exist, including himself. Perhaps he cannot bear reality, due to an ancient curse or something? Yes he is evil, because he wants to destroy all living things. Hes not a natural "Death" force at all, really. Either that or he is very, very bitter about something... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:22:19 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Has anyone else had trouble with the e-mail address for DUNGEON? My server says that dungeon@tsr.com does not exist. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:35:54 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? At 17:47 15 07 98 +0100, Rob pondered: >Thanatos is a nihilist. He hates existance itself. He wants everything to >cease to exist, including himself. Perhaps he cannot bear reality, due to >an ancient curse or something? > >Yes he is evil, because he wants to destroy all living things. Hes not a >natural "Death" force at all, really. > >Either that or he is very, very bitter about something... He's only bitter on the outside, inside he's got creamy nougat stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #510 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 511 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] [MBirthright] Triumph Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - First (not exactly) Blood Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Slugish & Multiposting. Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:43:36 EDT From: Carmegil@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? I belive Thanatos should be labeled "evil" his m.o. is not only death but corruption and misery hes commands the highest echlons of the Hattians and their hate police. He was the cause of the spell of oblivian when he corrupted the Nithians, and im sure there are many other civilizations we dont know about that carry his taint. Thanatos is by far the best definition of evil that I've seen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:53:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > > Isn't there a professional or amateur anthropologist on the list? > He should know an answer. > I'm an amature/dilatante (which is true of me and many fields). As I mentioned in one post I can't think of a specific RL culture of significance that doesn't have marriage in some form. However, some come reasonably close: Samoans, supposedly (at least if you listen to some) have informal ties at best between mates. A number of African cultures have matralinial traditions, and loose/informal marriages, IIRC, but again I can't think of specific examples. Anyhow, this *is* a fantasy land, and if folks think it would be interesting to have an(other) nation with no formal marriage practices (in addition to Alphatia), then I don't think we should let reality bind us (in a world with wishes, even). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:12:30 EDT From: Dleggend@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine In a message dated 98-07-15 17:10:10 EDT, you write: << Has anyone else had trouble with the e-mail address for DUNGEON? My server says that dungeon@tsr.com does not exist. >> Try dungeon@tsrinc.com The web page is at www.tsrinc.com not www.tsr.com Dleggend@aol.com Enter Dleggend's Page *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:21:48 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, stan wrote: > He's only bitter on the outside, inside he's got creamy nougat There are some things better left unknown. Max IV - all Immortals have creamy filling, it gives them their power. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:34:43 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs ><< Yeah, they're called "extinct". >> > >Like the Elves of Alfheim? If you consider Alfheim to be a RW example, you've been out on the steppes a bit too long;~) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:32:49 EDT From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Latest issue of DUNGEON (#69) lists E-mail address as dungeon@wizards.com. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:14:47 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level At 22.44 14/07/98 EDT, Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > >That would also vary from place to place, but generally Fighters should be >the most numerous class while Mages should be the least numerous >outside of such nations as Glantri and Alphatia. Also, IMO thieves should be more numerous in "civilized" countries than elsewhere, e.g. there should be more thieves in Darokin, than in Ostland. OTOH the number of clerics/priests should be almost invariable all over Mystara, except for some special countries where clerics are banned (Glantri) or where religion is the most important thing (Hule, Ylaruam, maybe Sind). > Based on the figures >I cited for Alphatia, for example, we might divide up the adventurers as >follows: > >40% Fighters >25% Wizards >20% Thieves >10% Priests >5% Others (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Monks, Psionicists, etc.) -- for >whichever of these classes you decide actually exist on Mystara. It would be nice to make something like this for each Mystaran nation. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:53:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > > Isn't there a professional or amateur anthropologist on the list? > He should know an answer. > I'm an amature/dilatante (which is true of me and many fields). As I mentioned in one post I can't think of a specific RL culture of significance that doesn't have marriage in some form. However, some come reasonably close: Samoans, supposedly (at least if you listen to some) have informal ties at best between mates. A number of African cultures have matralinial traditions, and loose/informal marriages, IIRC, but again I can't think of specific examples. Anyhow, this *is* a fantasy land, and if folks think it would be interesting to have an(other) nation with no formal marriage practices (in addition to Alphatia), then I don't think we should let reality bind us (in a world with wishes, even). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:30:20 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level >> Based on the figures >>I cited for Alphatia, for example, we might divide up the adventurers as >>follows: >> >>40% Fighters >>25% Wizards >>20% Thieves >>10% Priests >>5% Others (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Monks, Psionicists, etc.) -- for >>whichever of these classes you decide actually exist on Mystara. > >It would be nice to make something like this for each Mystaran nation. The Savage Baronies have a breakdown of classes per barony - it does stress that being a highly adventurer oriented place there are far more ranked NPCs here than anywhere else (40% to 25% of the population). I would say that Karameikos (Land of Adventure, after all) would have a high proportion of adventurers as well (25-35%), with other nations less than this. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:54:42 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Rob said: >c) As for the Belcadiz elves, they are a completely different offshoot of >the elven race - originating from the elven colony near Blackmoor. If thats >the case, these guys have been in close contact with humans for a long, long >time... > Are you sure about this? I read somewhere that they are believed to have been part of the second migration from Grunland, after the fall of Blackmoor. >I always imagined Wendar as Canada :). As far as human/elven culture goes, >the humans and the elves coexist, but the elves have the definite upper hand >(Wendar is an ELVEN realm, after all). > I've associated Wendar with Canada as well. Climate-wise it's similar (at least to eastern Canada, specifically Ontario), anyway. You wouldn't guess, given how scrrewy our weather's been lately :-( [35 degrees Celsius and more this week, with high humidity - yikes, feels more like the northern coast of Davania]. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:37:16 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] [MBirthright] Triumph For thouse of you who are involved in the game, and thouse who aren't but are paying attention none the less by lurking at Solmyr's website, Thyatis celebrated a Triumph this last month (Action Round 5.2). However, the formating was somewhat corrupted*, making it somewhat illegible. So, for thouse who are interested the legible, correctly formated version can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Triumph.html *(I personally blame HTML editors for such problems. Now, I don't want Solmyr to get the idea that I hold *him* responsible for deformating problems. I'm a cantankerous crumudgeon. I guess it's because I "cut my HTML teeth" as it were at Shadowland, where editing your own code is de rigur. I don't use editors. I'm not the best coder in the world. Anyhow, I'm rambling. Hope you enjoy the page. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:16 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society In a message dated 98-07-15 12:48:20 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Question: If Esterhod is too Artic to grow crops, isn't that even more > true for the Yannivey Islands? And yet Floating Ar was moved to Yanniveys > to ". . .use them to grow crops in the forthcoming years." First off, I would disagree with those who consider Esterhold too cold for crops -- it may not be an exporter of food, but surely some crops can be grown there. As for the Yannivey Islands -- remember that Floating Ar was left floating over open ocean after Alphatia sank. Almost any dry land would have been an improvement in terms of food supply. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-15 13:30:07 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > IIRC there's no canon material for one of these options. > I prefer the idea that Eriadna and Torenal was married indeed. > Life was hard enough for General Torenal already. > BTW, we know that Eriadna has five children, the three > youngest with Torenal. Im my ears this sounds like > a marriage. What about that King of Aquas who was the father of her two older children? He was also alive right up until the end of WotI. Of course, we could well argue that she "divorced" this king and then "married" Torenal -- but nothing other than her lingering affection for Torenal kept her from dumping him and returning to her previous "husband" or moving on to somebody else. But in any case, she did acknowledge him as the father of her youngest three children, which is all that really seems to matter by Alphatian law and custom. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:32 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-15 17:57:17 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: > Perhaps in Wendar humans dont marry? Its the humans who are isolated > here (elves are cold resistant (at least AD+D ones are :) so they would be > able to move around frozen Wendar easier than the humans) after all. Also I > think Wendar elves were around before Wendarian humans. So perhaps the > humans took to worshipping the elven Immortals over the years, as well, in > their isolation... That is why I made my remark about Wendarian marriages lasting 50-100 years -- for a human that is "for life" but for an elf that leaves room for many marriages. Unless elves drastically shortened the length of time that elves were expected to stay together when they mated, the net result would be no change to human society. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:26 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-15 16:29:24 EDT, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes: > But how would they know who was a close relative if children don't even > necessarily know both their parents? They would be much more sure about maternal relatives than paternal ones - -- but even the latter could be avoided if people were discouraged from mating with close relatives of anyone that they knew their mother had "shacked up" with. And note that most Alphatians do seem to know who their fathers are, even if their fathers were not married to their mothers. So avoidance of incest is not much more difficult for Alphatians than for us in the real world -- after all, in the real world we rather heavily depend on the assumption that our mothers were faithful to their husbands around the time that we were conceived. I remember a rather amusing song by Mike Cross on that theme -- about a young man from West Virginia who could not marry any of the local girls because they were his half-sisters -- it seems that his father sowed quite a few wild oats in the area. However, when his mother found out about the problem she was able to tell him that he could marry whoever he wanted to -- because the one child that his "father" was not the father of was him! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:20 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-15 13:30:45 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > Thank you, Jenni, it seems that you have understood me. > A point I had in mind but not yet written down is the > following: Why should those elves, sometimes arrogant as > only elves can be, always adapt their lifes to human customs, > but not a single time the humans to elven customs? > The consequence would be that the elves are a inferior race > or perceive themselves as one, at least. I'm sure that nobody > of my readers would see it that way. This seems like a good time to advance a theory that I once considered about Alphatian origins. I once suggested that at some point in the distant past the humans and elves of Alphatia engaged each other in a genocidal war for reasons that are long forgotten. The elves won the war by using their magic to polymorph all of the humans into elves. As per the spell description, the humans lost their old personalities and grew to think of themselves as elves -- and the elves accepted them as such, mated with them, and produced offspring for several generations. However, as the generations passed the effects of the "polymorph other" spell wore off and these "elves" gradually became more human -- eventually evolving into the modern Alphatian races. But despite their loss of longevity and other distinctively "elven" characteristics, they retained many elven customs, including the elven attitudes towards mating and child-rearing. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:28 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) In a message dated 98-07-15 17:07:38 EDT, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > I wouldn't automatically think so. Hule lasted a long time with no > noted strong leader during its' nearly 2500 year history. OK, you had > Hosadus twice and the Master but it was only when the barbarians united > and threatened Hule directly was Hoasaus reincarnated to lead Hule. > There is no indication that after the loss of as a great leader that Hule > ever collapsed into chaos. But has Hosadus ever truly been "dead" since his first appearance? Even when he had no visible presence he was almost certainly an invisible force uniting his people. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:33 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level In a message dated 98-07-15 18:28:28 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: > It would be nice to make something like this for each Mystaran nation. I agree -- but to do that we would need a good starting point such as we have for Alphatia. There we could posit that 20% of the population were spellcasters, with more Wizards than Priests, and work from there. With most Mystaran cultures we have even less information. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:12:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. Anyhow, they were largely tired ol' threads leading in circles, anyhow. I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:42:06 -0700 From: "Harold \"Wisconsin\" Johnson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - First (not exactly) Blood Eyow!!! I've been busy packing to go home and haven't logged on in five days. There were over 940 messages!!!!! I'll never wade through them all. Just think after being on the road for a week how much I will have waiting to read! Harold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:57:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society > > As for the Yannivey Islands -- remember that Floating Ar was left floating > over open ocean after Alphatia sank. Almost any dry land would have been > an improvement in terms of food supply. > True; had it been me, I would've "sailed" the islands south towards more comfortable climes, but it wasn't me. I'm sure a megre existance can be eaked out of the Yannivey tagia. I just hope all the haughty lords of Ar have their cold weather parkas, or it's a reprise of "A Winter in Lenningrad" for them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:15:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. Anyhow, they were largely tired ol' threads leading in circles, anyhow. I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:21:31 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. Anyhow, they were largely tired ol' threads leading in circles, anyhow. I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:22:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. Anyhow, they were largely tired ol' threads leading in circles, anyhow. I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:26:07 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. Anyhow, they were largely tired ol' threads leading in circles, anyhow. I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:40:06 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Slugish & Multiposting. 1) Was it just a slow day today, or did other people have problems getting their screeds. . .er, "thoughtfully considered messages" posted to the list, too? 2) Appology: a couple messages were posted twice by me, and one several times, since it didn't seem to be appearing at all (I was begining to wonder if I had worn out my welcome already. . . .) Anyhow, it just double-posted (and I assume more of the same screed will follow). So I appologize for the spam effect. Still, some messages haven't apeared atol*. Oh well, I guess that's for the best. *atol: 1) coral-reef island, generally found in the pacific. 2) mispronunciation of "at all". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:02:12 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-16 00:39:13 EDT, you write: << I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with rights & an electorial voice in government. How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal change/re-evaluation of established custom). Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? >> thing thing is that (imo) thyatis needs all of its good and bad traits. imo needs them to balance things out. boot out corruption and thyatis is a rosy cheeked land of daisies. and that would not be fun. what to do to kick start thyatis? hmm...well imo these items need to be addressed. 1)the treasury 2)national unity/national pride thyatis needs a war that it cannot only win quickly and cheaply, but one that offers a boon of income. i toss my choice for a war against minrothad using operation hydra. A partial description of Operation Hydra can be found at Shawn's Mystara Site (shameless plug for Shawn). If you do not know the URL (shame on you) it is: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 The description only goes up to day 14 of the campaign. I really should finish that sucker up. Alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:44:33 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-15 23:42:38 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion > is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus > opinion in some circles). > What might "jump start" a recovery? Also, folks ought to remember that > it's THYATIS, not Alphatia (or NACE) that has a tradition of Citizens with > rights & an electorial voice in government. > How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the > virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start > it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal > change/re-evaluation of established custom). > Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? I think I have a few ideas on that score. The collapse of the old Thyatian Empire is by AC 1015 pretty well complete; what is needed to prevent further problems is for Eusebius to take some realistic measures to stabilize what is left. Here are some of the steps he can take: 1) Formally recognize the independence of Karameikos, Ochalea, and the Pearl Islands. Since there is no realistic prospect of reconquering those nations in the near future, he may as well reduce tensions with them. He can, of course, reconsider his options once they have let their guard down.... 2) Negotiate peace treaties with Ylaruam and NACE, assuming that the military situation is now a stalemate. If possible, include mutually lucrative trade policies in the treaty. 3) Abolish slavery, perhaps using a variant of the method used in Brazil in the late 19th century. Basically, what Eusebius would decree (and if possible have confirmed by the Senate) is that everybody born after a certain date is a citizen and not a slave. 4) Encourage the founding of new colonies, but of a different type than before. Instead of attempting to conquer other peoples, Eusebius would encourage his people to emigrate to otherwise uninhabited areas and develop them. If this is done right, Eusebius can create a new commercial empire to replace the old military empire. I am not suggesting that he disband the Imperial army -- far from it. But its purpose would shift from conquest to defending the Empire's interests. Of course, there would be some opposition to these measures. If things go well for Eusebius, his principal opposition will be from the Hattians, and he will be able to put them down decisively. If he can show some collusion between the Hattians and the Heldannic Knights, he could use that collusion as a pretext to "liberate" the Heldannic Territories. Such a campaign would leave the reputation of Thyatis at an all time high. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #511 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 512 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? [MYSTARA] - Mystara FAQ [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:09:15 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs >Rob said: > >>c) As for the Belcadiz elves, they are a completely different offshoot of >>the elven race - originating from the elven colony near Blackmoor. If thats >>the case, these guys have been in close contact with humans for a long, long >>time... >> >Are you sure about this? I read somewhere that they are believed to have >been part of the second migration from Grunland, after the fall of >Blackmoor. Well, I'm not 100% sure. I always thought thats where they came from tho. The Vulcania elves didnt migrate (well, they migrated to the HW) I thought. Ilsundals elves went to the Sylvan Realm, and settled Alfheim, Wendar, Alphatia, the Savage Coast and the Plain of Fire when they passed through these places... I cant remember where I got this stuff from. Probably the Glantri, Alfheim and Shadow Elf gazs... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:21:15 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society >> As for the Yannivey Islands -- remember that Floating Ar was left >floating >> over open ocean after Alphatia sank. Almost any dry land would have been >> an improvement in terms of food supply. >> >True; had it been me, I would've "sailed" the islands south towards more >comfortable climes, but it wasn't me. > I'm sure a megre existance can be eaked out of the Yannivey tagia. I just >hope all the haughty lords of Ar have their cold weather parkas, or it's a >reprise of "A Winter in Lenningrad" for them. Well, all it really means is that some 12th level wiz is on "Control Weather Duty" for a long time. They are Air Wizards, after all. (Although, yeah, I cant see why they moved to the Arctic Circle either - unless maybe to use themselves as a staging post on the way to the HW) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:11:45 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society >First off, I would disagree with those who consider Esterhold too cold for >crops -- it may not be an exporter of food, but surely some crops can be >grown there. I have a feeling that I'm beating a dead horse here, so I'll refrain from further comment unless new arguments are advanced, but I wanted to try to clarify some of the stuff I've said: Certainly, Esterhold's climate is poor, but they could grow some food. However, particularly in the case of Verdan, there are somewhere between 30,000 and 110,000 Jennites there who have never farmed in their lives, have no seeds, plows, or any other sort of farming implements, and live in a nation isolated on the Arctic ocean (I disagree with those who would compare Verdan to Norway or British Columbia, IMO its climate should be more comparable to Canada's NW Territory (I think I actually mean that new territory, if it got created) or Russia's north coast. There is no way that these people could make it without tremendous aid from some outside nation. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:16:04 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine >The web page is at www.tsrinc.com not www.tsr.com Actually, there is now a mirror site at www.tsr.com Thanks to everyone who tried to help: I'll try the different addresses and let you know which one(s) work. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:56:12 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) At 22:45 15 07 98 EDT, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-15 17:07:38 EDT, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > >> I wouldn't automatically think so. Hule lasted a long time with no >> noted strong leader during its' nearly 2500 year history. OK, you had >> Hosadus twice and the Master but it was only when the barbarians united >> and threatened Hule directly was Hoasaus reincarnated to lead Hule. >> There is no indication that after the loss of as a great leader that Hule >> ever collapsed into chaos. > >But has Hosadus ever truly been "dead" since his first appearance? Even >when he had no visible presence he was almost certainly an invisible force >uniting his people. So why wouldn't he continue to unite his people after the Master goes? This started when you said that Hule would experience chaos when the Master left. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:08:22 +1000 From: anakin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Is Thanatos evil? DM wrote: > Patrick Sullivan wondered: > < death, and he basically embodies the sphere of entropy, but IMO his > personality is not really evil in the way of Orcus' or Arik's.>> > > The right question should be then: is Death Evil? I don't think Death > should be labeled evil, but just "natural", though I agree there are > different kinds of death. > My personal take on this is that evil and good are of little importance in mystara, wasn't the major axis LAW/CHAOS. Thanatos and the other entropic immortals where supposed to be agents of chaos and decay not necessarily evil. ANAKIN - -- ICQ #12697398 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:20:34 CEST From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara FAQ Mystara FAQ version 5.3 by Hervé Musseau Q: What is Mystara? A: Mystara is an imaginary world created by TSR as a campaign world for roleplaying games using the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. Q: What is a roleplaying game? A: Roleplaying games are games in which people play the role of imaginary fantastic characters like warriors or wizards and try to complete an adventure under the guidance of a game master. Q: I never heard of Mystara, but I know a setting called the Known World which looks pretty the same. What's the difference? A: Mystara got a name as a world only recently; before that, it was often referred to as the Known World, although Mystara is more than just the Known World. Q: So, what's Mystara? The Known World and what else? A: Mystara is basically composed of 2 main parts, the Outer World and the Hollow World, plus 2 moons, and some other exotic settings. Q: A Hollow World? A: Yes. Mystara, unlike our earth, is hollow, an empty sphere. It has an internal sun that lights the interior world, making it inhabitable. It holds old civilizations that are now extinct on the Outer World, placed there by the Immortals with strong magic preventing them from evolving much or dying away. The only entrances to the Hollow World are through underground passages between the two worlds, and through the holes that stand in place of the north and south poles. Q: And the Outer World? A: The Outer World is mostly like our Earth. It comprises: * the Known World (now called Old World), where the most civilized countries are located, * Alphatia (only before AC 1009), * the Savage Coast and Hule, * the southern continent, called Davania, * the eastern continent, called Skothar. Q: Why is Alphatia part of Mystara only up to AC 1009? A: Because Alphatia, which is a large continent east of the Known World, sank into the ocean in AC 1009, at the end of the major event called Wrath of the Immortals. It is now a floating continent located in the Hollow World. Q: What exactly is Wrath of the Immortals? A: Wrath of the Immortals (or WotI) is a great campaign that TSR published to update the Known World. It deals with the Great War that involves the major countries of Mystara and that was caused by the Immortals to obtain control of the Nucleus of the Spheres, a powerful artifact located under Glantri. At the end of the war, Alphatia sinks, Glantri and Thyatis have suffered dramatically from the conflict and three new powers enter the political scene of Mystara: the Heldannic Territories, the Hagiarchy of Hule and the "revamped" Kingdom of Karameikos. Q: On the continental map published in the Master DM's book, there are some empires I've never read anything about in other products and on the list, like the Empire of Dorphin IV or the Empire of the Great Khan. Do they exist? Where can I find information about these? A: The map in the Master set is wrong, wrong, wrong! In the series of articles written by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine, the first in the series (Dragon #153) explains this all. The map was the was released by a very imaginative Thyatian, and wrongly accepted for the truth. There is no Empire of Dorphin IV, no Empire of the Great Khan, etc. Also, as you probably guessed, the size of the Thyatian Empire was largely exagerated on this map... Q: I've already heard from the Known World, and from the Hollow World too, but never as Mystara. What does all this mean? A: This is because Mystara is a very old world, one of the oldest created by TSR, and, as TSR grew, so did Mystara. All of these product lines are revelant to Mystara: * Mystara, of course, * the Known World and most stuff that were made for D&D (as opposed to AD&D) like these old good modules B and X, or the Gazetteers, * the Hollow World, * Red Steel/the Savage Coast, * Blackmoor. Also, some products bearing the label First Quest are related to Mystara. Q: Blackmoor? I know a Blackmoor, but it's part of Greyhawk, isn't it? A: Blackmoor was, like Greyhawk, the campaign world of one of TSR's founder. It was later placed in both Greyhawk and the Known World (as a past kingdom in the later), effectively making two Blackmoors exist. It seems there is no further relation between the two Blackmoors, however, although some people made the assumption. Q: Where is it located? A: Blackmoor was a techno-magical kingdom that blew itself up a few millenia ago. The event shifted the planet's axis and Blackmoor is now the north pole. Sources are contradictory as to where Blackmoor stands; some place it on Brun, some on Skothar. Arguments in favor of Brun are the position of the Inn Between the Worlds and the Nucleus of the Sphere, and the fact that the Known World stands there; this is the solution proposed in some Gazetteers. Arguments in favor of Skothar are its sort of canonical status, and the feeling that all civilizations should not systamatically come from the Known World; this is the solution proposed in the Hollow World box. Note that, if you consider the Hollow World solution to be the truth in your campaign, the map in the box does have a typo : the names of Blackmoor and Thonia have been reversed (Blackmoor was north of the Empire of Thonia according to all other sources). Bruce Heard's opinion on this matter : << Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologist on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonizations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara! :) >> So officially the answer is Skothar. Q: Ok, and now what's Red Steel? A: Red Steel is a setting that is part of Mystara (west of the Known World), although it was released as a stand-alone setting. Q: I have a player of the Church of Karameikos, and I whant to give him an Immortal, I suppose that it's a church with many Immortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in Gaz 1 I dind't find any list of Inmortals... A: These are the immortals of the Church of Karameikos, as told by Bruce Heard in an old Dragon Magazine: Asterius (Eternal of Thought), Leader Kagyar (Eternal of Matter) Ilsundal (Hierarch of Thought) Valerias (Hierarch of Matter) Vanya (Empyreal of Time). Also, although Chardastes is a native Traladaran Immortal, he is venerated through the auspices of the Church of Karameikos, not the Church of Traladara. This is extrapolated from info in B1-9 In Search of Adventure. The Immortals of the Church of Traladara are: Halav Petra Zirchev. Q: You spoke of Immortals, what are they? Are they Gods? A: Mystara has a different pantheon when compared to other D&D settings. Most notably, it has no gods, but beings called Immortals. Immortals are mortals who, through their deeds, have reached a higher status granting them more power than mere mortals. Basically, however, Immortals are not very different from Gods of other settings. Q: Is Jaggar von Drachenfelds the Star Dragon? A: No. According to Bruce Heard's article in Dragon #170 http://www.tsrinc.com/periodicals/dragon/backissues/170jun91/170FromHatchlingTo.txt he became the Star Dragon for a brief period but relinquished the title for absolution. Q: Also you mentionned something about D&D not being AD&D. What does that mean? A: Mystara was the world designed to be used with the rules of D&D (often called OD&D to better distinct it from AD&D and from the generic term D&D which could mean both; OD&D stands for Old D&D or Original D&D). It appeared in the old boxed rules: the Expert box, the Companion box and the Master box. Most of the earlier modules designed for D&D were set in this world. Recently, however, Mystara has been converted to AD&D (along with Red Steel), but many people who play in Mystara do it with the old rules (or their reedition, Rules Cyclopedia). Q: When I read stuff about Mystara I keep seeing acronyms I cannot understand like WotI or PWA. What do they mean? A: There is a list of Mystara relevant acronyms at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ Q: I heard that the Mystara line was cancelled. Is this true? A: It is unfortunately true. And Red Steel is cancelled too. Some novels pertaining to Mystara may be released as part of the First Quest line, and modules may be part of the Odyssey line. AFAIK, there is no such products in preparation however, though Wizards of the Coast (which bought TSR) has expressed its willingness to publish material for dead worlds, but never namely mentioned Mystara. Keep faith. Joshuan's Almanach was the last product of Mystara (to be precise the novel "The Black Vessel" has been released after, and to be even more precise it deals with the Savage Coast) and the Savages Baronies the last of Red Steel (except for online exclusives). Q: But I saw in TSR's 97 preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR has released these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com and http://www.tsrinc.com. Q: So, if TSR has dropped the line, how can I get new material for Mystara? A: There are many people on the web who love Mystara and have taken upon themselves to keep Mystara alive (and well alive). There is a mailing list dedicated to Mystara where people discuss together about it, exchanging ideas, points of view, and more. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@mpgn.com. In the body, have the single line: subscribe Mystara-L . It has 224 people, as of end April. Not quite a billion served, but we're getting there. As a comparison, there are 395 people on the Realms list, TSR's flagship world (source : Leroy Van Camp, list admin). There are also the TSR message boards at http://tsronline.wizards.com:80/mb/system/addnewuser.shtml and, according to Jeff Daly and Bruce Heard, Mystara rules there, with our board being second only to the generic DM's board but far more active than any other world-specific board. There are also many pages around the net dedicated to Mystara, sometimes with lots of interesting materials. Some of these pages are organized into a Webring, check http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html for info about the Mystara webring. Now more than ever you should express your views on how Mystara should be brought back at http://CWSpot.com/Mystara/SaveMystara or join the SaveMystara Writer's Group whose goal is to get as many adventures and articles to the periodicals as we can. Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara mailing list? A: The digests are collected at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/MailingListArchive/ and the oldest ones (prior to 1998) can be found at ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-digest/ However for your convenience the most interesting aricles the list has come up with are collected and sorted on Shawn's page at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/ Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara message board? A: You can't. The messages are neither archived nor collected. If you're interested in a specific message, try asking on either the board or the list, maybe someone did save it. Q: Where can I find a complete list of the material published for Mystara? A: The most complete lists to my knowledge is at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2304/prodlist.html It includes rulebooks and modules published by TSR, Mystara-relevant Judge Guild supplements, a list of various magazine #s that contain adventures, rules or world description pertaining to Mystara, novels, TSR net resources, and Clark Ashton Smith stories related to Averoigne. All of these are ranked according to compatibility with Mystara (explicit, implicit, compatible, etc.) and the type of product (campaign source, rules supplement, adventure, etc.). Q: And where can I buy those products? A: Since the Mystara line is out of print, it is difficult to find them. If you're lucky you can find them in any shop that sells RPG stuff, or buy second-hand books. Some places where you can find Mystara stuff on the web: http://www.dragontrove.com/listing.html http://www.titan-games.com/ http://www.rpgspot.com/main.htm http://www.hitpointe.com http://www.eskimo.com/~darkh/ http://www.ida.net/users/groverm/sleeping.dragon/sdh.html http://www.djhobby.com/catalog/index.html http://www.sagesguild.com/ http://www.crazyegors.com/ the newsgroup rec.games.frp.marketplace. Q: Where can I find the FAQ for the Mystara mailing list? A: Check at http://www.io.com/~oryon/mmlfaq.htm. AFAIK there is no plain text version of this FAQ. _____________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:58:11 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Sorry again to all for the problems that our system crash did to the list. Anyway there was a topic on howcome not everyone with 9 int becomes a mage. Here`s my slant on it. To become a mage you MUST successfully learn two of the first three spells taught whilst an apprentice. We canuse the spell research rule to work this out, 2(Int+lvl)-3lvl of spell, and the probability of 2 out of 3 is, 3xx-2xxx(x is chance of a single sucess). these results give about 15%for 9 int and only 33% for 18 Int. if we then take into account normal 3d6 distribution we get less than 8.5% of the total population has even the possibility to learn magic. BTW if you can learn only 1 spell go and be a bard or seek a new master. as to the nature of magic itself well it`s simply the ability to manipulate other spatial dimensions than the one you occupy for mortals. Same thing for immortals and power usage. This is old goldbox idea. BTW I think that this could explain the Old Ones, they`re mono or di spatial beings who reached immortality and then found that there were even higher forms of manipulation. Another thing. This where does the magic come from can be answered via canon(never fail to use it when it supports your arguement) forin WotI bk1 it states under Prime plane that All mortal magic works normally. However even here if an Immortal has personally created something, they should be allowed to modify it`s local conditions to suit IMO. Did anyone else spot the really serious rules SNAFU regarding `WISH`? It costs an Immortal 10PP to cast. However any immortal can create a scroll of 3 wish spells for only 1TP (if use 1PP can hoard it). you then assume mortal identity if a spellcaster, get a servitor otherwise, and merely read the scroll. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:58:35 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Sorry again to all for the problems that our system crash did to the list. Anyway there was a topic on howcome not everyone with 9 int becomes a mage. Here`s my slant on it. To become a mage you MUST successfully learn two of the first three spells taught whilst an apprentice. We canuse the spell research rule to work this out, 2(Int+lvl)-3lvl of spell, and the probability of 2 out of 3 is, 3xx-2xxx(x is chance of a single sucess). these results give about 15%for 9 int and only 33% for 18 Int. if we then take into account normal 3d6 distribution we get less than 8.5% of the total population has even the possibility to learn magic. BTW if you can learn only 1 spell go and be a bard or seek a new master. as to the nature of magic itself well it`s simply the ability to manipulate other spatial dimensions than the one you occupy for mortals. Same thing for immortals and power usage. This is old goldbox idea. BTW I think that this could explain the Old Ones, they`re mono or di spatial beings who reached immortality and then found that there were even higher forms of manipulation. Another thing. This where does the magic come from can be answered via canon(never fail to use it when it supports your arguement) forin WotI bk1 it states under Prime plane that All mortal magic works normally. However even here if an Immortal has personally created something, they should be allowed to modify it`s local conditions to suit IMO. Did anyone else spot the really serious rules SNAFU regarding `WISH`? It costs an Immortal 10PP to cast. However any immortal can create a scroll of 3 wish spells for only 1TP (if use 1PP can hoard it). you then assume mortal identity if a spellcaster, get a servitor otherwise, and merely read the scroll. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:00:20 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Sorry again to all for the problems that our system crash did to the list. Anyway there was a topic on howcome not everyone with 9 int becomes a mage. Here`s my slant on it. To become a mage you MUST successfully learn two of the first three spells taught whilst an apprentice. We canuse the spell research rule to work this out, 2(Int+lvl)-3lvl of spell, and the probability of 2 out of 3 is, 3xx-2xxx(x is chance of a single sucess). these results give about 15%for 9 int and only 33% for 18 Int. if we then take into account normal 3d6 distribution we get less than 8.5% of the total population has even the possibility to learn magic. BTW if you can learn only 1 spell go and be a bard or seek a new master. as to the nature of magic itself well it`s simply the ability to manipulate other spatial dimensions than the one you occupy for mortals. Same thing for immortals and power usage. This is old goldbox idea. BTW I think that this could explain the Old Ones, they`re mono or di spatial beings who reached immortality and then found that there were even higher forms of manipulation. Another thing. This where does the magic come from can be answered via canon(never fail to use it when it supports your arguement) forin WotI bk1 it states under Prime plane that All mortal magic works normally. However even here if an Immortal has personally created something, they should be allowed to modify it`s local conditions to suit IMO. Did anyone else spot the really serious rules SNAFU regarding `WISH`? It costs an Immortal 10PP to cast. However any immortal can create a scroll of 3 wish spells for only 1TP (if use 1PP can hoard it). you then assume mortal identity if a spellcaster, get a servitor otherwise, and merely read the scroll. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:42:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >thing thing is that (imo) thyatis needs all of its good and bad traits. imo >needs them to balance things out. boot out corruption and thyatis is a rosy >cheeked land of daisies. and that would not be fun. > >what to do to kick start thyatis? hmm...well imo these items need to be >addressed. 1)the treasury 2)national unity/national pride >thyatis needs a war that it cannot only win quickly and cheaply, but one that >offers a boon of income. i toss my choice for a war against minrothad using >operation hydra. I'd agree here, Thyatis was always kept in check by the Alphatians, now that they're gone it's going to be Military takeovers all the way! The only thing stopping this is the fact that their army was kinda smashed to small pieces. The NACE should be a pale reflection of what Alphatia once was, and no real threat. An invasion of NACE wouldn't be a good idea of course, especially considering the Thothians, but I don't see the NACE attacking Thyatis for it's expansionist ways. A quick war taking the lucrative islands of Minrothad and Ierendi would be a great start (Are there any Minrothad or Ierendi fans out there?), then turn their eyes to the former colonies. With Ylaruam in a civil war, Alfheim/Aengmor out of the picture, the Dwarves recovering from a civil war, the only people who would think about stopping Thyatis would be Darokin, Five Shires and Karameikos, none of whom could really do much against Thyatis. IMHO, I rekon Thyatis should either die a horrific, crushing death, with riots, famines, crumbling empire stuff, or go the other direction, a rebirth of glory a renaisance of power. Having the mightiest Empire in the world actually *mean* something! just some musings gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:43:20 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot >> Not mentioned of course is that EGG stands for E. Gary Gygax, a little fun >> Dave Arneson is having at the expense of his former friend > >He says that, contrary to rumor and myth, the Fearsome Egg of Coot is in no way a >reference to Gary. > Not saying He`s a liar, but if he were Pinocchio we would have just solved the deforeatation of the rainforests for lumber. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:52:03 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > 1) Formally recognize the independence of Karameikos, > IIRC, Thyatis already formally recognized the independence of Quisling's state in the treaty with Alphatia after the WotI war. > 2) Negotiate peace treaties with Ylaruam and NACE, assuming that the > military situation is now a stalemate. If possible, include mutually > lucrative trade policies in the treaty. > Now would be an oportunistic time (especially with Ylaruam), except do you think the Kin faction would negotiate or keep such a treaty (ok, they'd keep one for now, since their land is devistated by civil war and fiendish invasion, but when they recovered?) > 3) Abolish slavery, perhaps using a variant of the method used in Brazil > in the late 19th century. Basically, what Eusebius would decree (and > if possible have confirmed by the Senate) is that everybody born after > a certain date is a citizen and not a slave. > That's an interesting and good idea. Btw, Eusebius couldn't unilaterally "decree" such a thing (Senate, much of which is ELECTIVE, people seem to forget so I must point that out; Senate is responsibe for all legislation in Thyatis). Senate could pass such a law, and Eusebius would ratify it. > 4) Encourage the founding of new colonies, but of a different type than > before. Instead of attempting to conquer other peoples, Eusebius would > encourage his people to emigrate to otherwise uninhabited areas and > develop them. If this is done right, Eusebius can create a new commercial > empire to replace the old military empire. I am not suggesting that he > disband the Imperial army -- far from it. But its purpose would shift from > conquest to defending the Empire's interests. > Certainly a good idea. Other than Davania & the Thangeoth Islands, though, what uninhabited or lightly inhabited areas relatively close to Thyatis are there? > Of course, there would be some opposition to these measures. If things > go well for Eusebius, his principal opposition will be from the Hattians, > and he will be able to put them down decisively. If he can show some > collusion between the Hattians and the Heldannic Knights, he could use > that collusion as a pretext to "liberate" the Heldannic Territories. Such > a campaign would leave the reputation of Thyatis at an all time high. > Interesting thoughts. . . . My own ideas would include a shift away from a strong & hereditary nobility in addition to some of the above. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:57:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > thing thing is that (imo) thyatis needs all of its good and bad traits. imo > needs them to balance things out. boot out corruption and thyatis is a rosy > cheeked land of daisies. and that would not be fun. > I could say the same about some regions, but I shall not. The thing is, IMO, a *lot* of attention has been paid to the "negative" aspects of Thyatis reciently, and "virtually none" would be a kind way of describing the attention given to it's virtues (oh, I take that back: "Citizenship" and elective government *have* been mentioned reciently. . . .but in connection with Alphatia/NACE. But again, I won't speak on that matter.) > what to do to kick start thyatis? hmm...well imo these items need to be > addressed. 1)the treasury 2)national unity/national pride > thyatis needs a war that it cannot only win quickly and cheaply, but one that > offers a boon of income. i toss my choice for a war against minrothad using > operation hydra. > Min, huh? I'm not sure that "the gang" would ever let a conquest of Minrothad (or Quislingland) occur. But they might let a victorious re-absorbtion of Ochalea & the Pearl Islands happen. > A partial description of Operation Hydra can be found at Shawn's Mystara Site > (shameless plug for Shawn). If you do not know the URL (shame on you) it is: > > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 > > The description only goes up to day 14 of the campaign. I really should > finish that sucker up. > > Alex > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #512 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 513 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage Customs & Torenal. [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation [MYSTARA] - Thothia, Zandor and penalties Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started... Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal [MYSTARA] - Magic in Mystaraspace Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia, Zandor and penalties Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started... Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:04:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > A quick war taking the lucrative islands of Minrothad and Ierendi > would be a great start (Are there any Minrothad or Ierendi fans out > there?), then turn their eyes to the former colonies. > Certainly something *I* wouldn't mind (being that I love Island posessions like a dog loves a bone). If Thyatis could get these & Quislingland back I wouldn't worry so much about the other junk. But I think we're living in fantasyland if we think that the gang will ever let that happen. > With Ylaruam in a civil war, > "Restore Order" in Tarmokikas. . . . (no, that won't be allowed either. But a man can *dream*, can't he?) > IMHO, I rekon Thyatis should either die a horrific, crushing death, > with riots, famines, crumbling empire stuff, or go the other > direction, a rebirth of glory a renaisance of power. Having the > mightiest Empire in the world actually *mean* something! > For a variety of reasons I myself wouldn't favor the first part, but the second chunk I go for (oh, like that is such a surprise! *eyes roll all over the world*) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:28:16 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City <> Let us know when your ready *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:36:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Marriage Customs & Torenal. > IIRC there's no canon material for one of these options. > I prefer the idea that Eriadna and Torenal was married indeed. > The general tone of the DotE entries for Eriadna, Torenal, and their children "strongly implies" that they were not married. Since marriage is not a prominent institution in Alphatian society, I think we have to conclude from such implications that they were, indeed, not married. > Life was hard enough for General Torenal already. > There is a reason for that. In Alphatia, no matter how skilled you are, how smart you are, how dedicated and loyal you are, if you aint a spellcaster, you're a second classed "citizen" (well, not really "citizen", since their is no such thing as citizenship in Alphatia). Especially on the mainland, and especially in the "heart" of Alphatia (Sundsvall). [c.f. P.50 & 53-54, DotE Dungeon Master's Sourcebook]. Torenal was a living, embematic symbol of that, just as folks like Angelarian Canolcarius are symbolic of Thyatis' flaws. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:50:39 +0200 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation Nick Hudson wondered: << One thing I never understood about Thincol's illness; I mean, this is what I would have done if I were an Immortal looking to gain some powerful worshippers and pick up some PP at the same time: Why didn't any Immortal appear to Thincol (in a dream or teleport him to an Outer Plane, or something), tell him that you will cure him and restore Thyatian glory if he worships you (being careful not to reveal that this is a deal; don't want those pesky mortals to realize that you need them :)), fix Vanya's curse, and send newly restored Thincol home with some nifty new magic items (maybe even some carefully controlled artifacts, or some vicious spells from other TSR worlds for Thyatian mages).>> The only explanation i can give you at 1:51 AM after reading over 240 messages is this: Immortals, as somebody already said, are not all powerful. So, what if Vanya's curse was not Directly imposed on Thincol? My idea is that she cursed an item very dear to Thincol with a strange kind of Curse: "As long as this item will remain intact and belong to Thincol, he will age and weaken faster and eventually die in two years". Now, I think that even if the other Immortals would have liked to help Thincol to get his support and worship, they couldn't simply come down and smash the item, nor dispel the effect, probably because this would count as "direct intervention" and also because the item could have now become a (cursed) artifact, much more difficult to destroy. That's why Thincol didn't dodge his doom and no Immortal helped him... Oh, BTW, i was forgetting to tell you which is the item i was referring to.. well, it's pretty obvious now: the Imperial Crown... (how ironic..) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:51:36 +0200 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thothia, Zandor and penalties James Ruhland wrote: >Robert wrote: > Who knows? Maybe Aketheti is back in power after Talons of Night, and maybe > she is in fact running the whole NACE from well behind the scenes. Maybe > even now shapechanging aranea are silently repopulating whats left of > Alphatia undetectably (Invasion of the Body Snatchers!).... The world will > never know... <> Well, last thing I remember.. I was running for the door... whoops, sorry: i don't know how it slipped in my mind :) I was saying, last thing I remember while talking with some of the other Almanac guys about the IoD involved indeed a movie plot for next year. It deals with the araneas and Aketheeti, but not with Body Snatchers.. eh eh.. Obviously I don't know if the idea will be used, but I liked it a lot: it could keep Thothia on its toes.. << That's why I thought Zandor should have been kept around, too (even if a psychopath, he *did* make a good villian: let *players* work to put things right).>> Zandor, well.. my PCs met him and really started to HATE him just immediately after he tried to Disintegrate the wizard's party because he didn't address him with the right title (he called him "your Majesty" instead of "your Imperial Majesty"..). Well, that guy's really crazy.. and resourceful, so I wouldn't consider him out of the game until I saw his body reduced to ashes (hint, hint..) <<[On a totally different topic, I just wish to say: that's no way to decide a match. Something has to be better than penalty kick shootouts.]>> *fuming* I totally agree with you! Better to replay the match than to watch those hateful penalties, especially in a World Cup quarter final.. DM (who refused to watch every other match after Italy's demise -at this point, I hope France will win the Cup) Note: this mail is one week old... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:52:04 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started... Nicholas Hudson proclaimed: << I have a copy of Best of Dragon vol.1 that contains the level 10 spell, "Armageddon". It delievers a blast of pure energy inflicting 10 to the 21st power points of damage, destroying the world. No savings throw. Game Over. Now, can you do that with a wish?>> And Jesse LaBranche immediately replied: <> You cannot possibly expect me to refrain from adding my two passem to the discussion, now can't you? ;) First of all, Alter Reality is not really a common spell IIRC, quite the contrary! Maybe it is not as rare as Armageddon, but I don't think every normal mage has access to it, at least on Mystara (is it AD&D?). I think I could resist Armageddon using a tenth level Wizard only: never heard of the 6th level spell Anti-Magic Shell? And what if my mage had a Ring of Spell Turning? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:52:32 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal Nick Hudson foresaw: << Thincol and Torenal, the ultimate showdown in Limbo! See Mystara's greatest warriors go head-to-head in the shade of the Imperial Colloseum. The Masters of Chaos could sell tickets to sentient beings across the Multiverse.>> Wow! Really visionary I dare say.. It enthralls me.. I wonder how could I fit it into my campaign.. It must be done, absolutely! Or maybe this scenario is even more epic: the demons have arrived on Mystara again for the Millennium Tournament! They have chosen their champions who will fight against Mystara's representatives in a Mortal Combat ;) However, some minions of the demons have been able to incapacitate beyond recovery two of the Mystaran Heroes. The PCs must search the Multiverse for two fighters of ultimate skill to join their group for this Duel. Somebody in the crowd whispers two names: Thincol and Torenal.. but they're dead.. The PCs must go to Limbo, recover the souls of the two men (even for a short time) and have them fight SIDE BY SIDE to save Mystara! But the demons have an ace up their sleeve.. [to be continued] DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:53:10 +0200 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Magic in Mystaraspace Nicholas Hudson wrote: << Just like to opinion (yes, it's now a verb) on the latest ruminations on the nature of magic on Mystara. magic was operating just fine before the Nucleus of the Spheres was created. This, if I have read the Poor Wizard's Almanac correctly, is also before the world was hollowed out.>> Uhmm.. actually, HW says that Ka discovered the HW way before Blackmoor and already placed there some species (Brute Men and dinosaurs). Let me take here the opportunity to discuss this a bit more. Now, my theory about HW is that Ka didn't really discover it: he created it. Around BC 10,000 he understood that Mystara was a megalith and that is was sentient. With the Carnifex's experiment, Mystara risked to be greatly altered by their magics, so the Immortals intervened and banished them on the Pits of Banishment foiling their final ritual to attain a higher level of existence. However, this deed was not without repercussions: Urt (the Megalith) had been nearly "poisoned" and needed to recover from the shock it experienced. So Ka contacted it and proposed a deal: he would have moved Urt to a better and safer place in order to recover its mental and energetic stability. Urt accepted, and thus the HW came to be. But where did Urt go? IMHO, Urt is now one of the two Mystaran moons, probably Patera (the invisible one), due to the special properties of its core. Okay now, back to the World Shield.. << Of course, the World Shield was probably there before, but in the geometric center. According to the PWA, the World Shield's most important function is providing enough mass for Mystara to generate an Earth-like gravity.>> I don' t think the WS has always been there but I agree with your second observation about gravity: since Mystara lacks its core, it MUST have something that provides gravity. So IMHO, the Immortals (with Ka guiding their efforts) created the WS after moving Urt outside Mystara in order to keep things in place. << An interesting point arises, though. In th introduction to DA3, there is a narrative explaining what the crew of the Beagle thought of this new planet. They were amazed by the abilities of the locals, and originally thought that they were parapsycholgical talents (which indicates to me that the aliens were familiar with psionics, and that any psionics on Mystara are probably a legacy from the "gods"); they later found that "they were related to a strange energy field permeating the planet...." So it seems as though magic on Mystara is a product of this energy field.>> According to my theory then, if the Beagle did arrive on Mystara prior BC 9,000, they would have had no problems with their ship.. or would they..? (see later) << If this were so, then wouldn't this preclude magic working anywhere else in the Mystara Multiverse? Not quite. Each plane can, according to Wrath of the Immortals, have its own unique affect on magic. It would not be unreasonable to assume that other planes have different origins for magical energy. But what of other planets, besides Mystara, in the Prime? I interpret WotI to mean that, unlike Manual of the Planes, Mystara has only one Prime. Thus, any Prime planet that didn't have a World Shield wouldn't have magic.>> I beg to differ. I see it under a different perspective. IMHO, the whole Mystaraspace is attuned to and imbued with magic, something which is not evenly spread throughout the whole Prime. Some galaxies or systems experience lack of magic, others abundance, others are somewhere in the middle (like Mystaraspace). What the WS really does is providing gravity to Mystara, that's all. Oh, yes, and preventing anyone from accessing the Hollow World too easily (it's like a defensive barrier for the HW). So what caused the Beagle's malfunction, you might wonder? I have adopted a theory proposed by Robert Fry: there is a magical energy field surrounding Mystaraspace which has two pourposes, and one of them is preventing technology from working correctly inside the system. This is what affected the Beagle's systems in the first place! However, the uniqueness of the WS had a stranger effect on the Beagle's technology: it changed it slightly combining it with the magical essences of the world. This is why Blackmoor lasted so long: because they were able to use technology partially driving from the magical energies of Mystara. Later some of the scientists discovered this anomalies and tried another path: technomancy, literlly the combination of science and magic. But it was too late: the instability of Blackmoor technology had gone too far and so the GroF came to pass.. As you see, IMHO it is the Great Energy Field that prevents technology to work properly on Mystara (and that will thus prevent the PCs to retain and effectively use any technological item in the present) and on all the other planets of the system. However, technomancy is a completely different thing: it is the solution to the problem, at least on Mystara (maybe thanks to the WS properties..). One clear example of technomancy still existing on Mystara is von Drachenfels's L-shaped wand dating back to Blackmoor: it is a laser gun but operates as a wand of lightning bolts without malfunctioning! <> Following my hypothesis, I'd say that it doesn't depend on the WS then, but on the properties of the space you explore. Some are highly magical (rich of magic like Mystara), others are devoid of magic (sargassos) and rely on technology (Galactic Federation); others yet may have both magic and technology, it depends which one is discovered first (Aelos -remember, not being inside Mystaraspace, Aelos is not affected by the energy field that hampers tech.) So, if a mage flies into a sargasso area he's hopeless unless somebody helps him (probably using technology); otherwise he can act freely. Sure, there will be some places where magic exists but it's so low that only certain spells will work (only first to third level, for example), and that might prove a real problem. It all depends on the Master really, but IMHO all these situations can happen on the Prime. Hope I have explained my position well. The discussion was really interesting :) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:17:39 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) >Did anyone else spot the really serious rules SNAFU regarding `WISH`? It >costs an Immortal 10PP to cast. However any immortal can create a scroll >of 3 wish spells for only 1TP (if use 1PP can hoard it). you then assume >mortal identity if a spellcaster, get a servitor otherwise, and merely >read the scroll. <;-P The Wish spell costing Immortals PP is one of the reasons I use the gold box for Immortal magic. If the Immortal was mortal, he could cast wish for nothing. Seems wrong to me... Anything that costs PP must be pretty darn earthshaking (after all, 2PP could move Mystara into the centre of its sun, thus destroying the planet. 10PP must be pretty dazzling.) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:25:52 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> IMHO, I rekon Thyatis should either die a horrific, crushing death, >> with riots, famines, crumbling empire stuff, or go the other >> direction, a rebirth of glory a renaisance of power. Having the >> mightiest Empire in the world actually *mean* something! >> >For a variety of reasons I myself wouldn't favor the first part, but the >second chunk I go for (oh, like that is such a surprise! *eyes roll all >over the world*) As Thyatis and Alphatia arent really looking at each other as much as they used to (they have their own fish to fry) I can't see why those 24 standard legions (and thats PWA stats, not Legions of Thyatis stuff) cant start kicking some serious ass - as they have less to garrison against. 30,000 legionnaries invade Karameikos (a conservative estimate, IMHO). Karameikos goes under. Way under. The School of Magecraft is fragged by the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). Bit of support to Alfric Oderbry, and the CoK becomes the Thyatian Empires best buddies. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:28:52 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >The NACE should be a pale reflection of what Alphatia once was, and >no real threat. An invasion of NACE wouldn't be a good idea of >course, especially considering the Thothians, but I don't see the >NACE attacking Thyatis for it's expansionist ways. The NACE now has little in the way of centralised power, it being a confederation. Such a government would most likely find it very difficult to unite and present a hardline stance to the Thyatians. Especially with scumbags like Norlan involved. And even more especially if the Thyatians butter a few Alphatian kings up a bit ("foreign aid"). Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:42:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) > > Anything that costs PP must be pretty darn earthshaking (after all, 2PP > could move Mystara into the centre of its sun, thus destroying the planet. > 10PP must be pretty dazzling.) > IMO, one might say that Immortals have access to "mortal level" wishes whenever they want to go through the inconvenience (I.E., as suggested, follow the 'loopholes'), and that immortal-level Wishes (thouse of the 10 PP variety) *are* pretty dazzling. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:35:49 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia, Zandor and penalties >I was saying, last thing I remember while talking with some of the other >Almanac guys about the IoD involved indeed a movie plot for next year. It >deals with the araneas and Aketheeti, but not with Body Snatchers.. eh eh.. >Obviously I don't know if the idea will be used, but I liked it a lot: it >could keep Thothia on its toes.. COOL! More araneas! Aketheti is very cool, too. But what about Ramenhotep X! Perhaps he could take over his ancestors throne... (if he could actually get out of that pyramid he's in) ><< That's why I thought Zandor should have been kept around, too (even if a >psychopath, he *did* make a good villian: let *players* work to put things >right).>> > >Zandor, well.. my PCs met him and really started to HATE him just >immediately after he tried to Disintegrate the wizard's party because he >didn't address him with the right title (he called him "your Majesty" >instead of "your Imperial Majesty"..). Well, that guy's really crazy.. and >resourceful, so I wouldn't consider him out of the game until I saw his >body reduced to ashes (hint, hint..) Thats cool too. ><<[On a totally different topic, I just wish to say: that's no way to >decide a match. Something has to be better than penalty kick shootouts.]>> > >*fuming* I totally agree with you! Better to replay the match than to watch >those hateful penalties, especially in a World Cup quarter final.. > >DM >(who refused to watch every other match after Italy's demise -at this >point, I hope France will win the Cup) I may point out at this point that England ALWAYS seems to lose on penalties whenever there is a major international tournament. I want to know who's responsible for penalties, and things like Offside. >Note: this mail is one week old... Funny - it was Ronaldo who seemed responsible for Brazil's defeat, as well. So much for the Brazilian secret weapon. (We had the sense to put our secret weapon, Gazza, out to pasture. Darren Anderton ruled!) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:38:35 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started... >First of all, Alter Reality is not really a common spell IIRC, quite the >contrary! Maybe it is not as rare as Armageddon, but I don't think every >normal mage has access to it, at least on Mystara (is it AD&D?). 1st edition, illusionist spell. I'm not sure if its about in 2nd ed - maybe in some obscure text, like the Planescape book (seems a lot of old 1st ed spells have been resurrected in there). >I think I could resist Armageddon using a tenth level Wizard only: never >heard of the 6th level spell Anti-Magic Shell? And what if my mage had a >Ring of Spell Turning? Wildshield... Speaking of which, I'm reminded of a wild mage (me!) who surged when casting Control Weather, and so created a (temporary) gate to the Astral Plane 11 square miles in size(!). I wonder what interesting wild surges could occur when the target of the spell is the entire planet! Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:40:01 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal ><< Thincol and Torenal, the ultimate showdown in Limbo! >See Mystara's greatest warriors go head-to-head in the shade of the >Imperial Colloseum. The Masters of Chaos could sell tickets to sentient >beings across the Multiverse.>> > >Wow! Really visionary I dare say.. It enthralls me.. I wonder how could I >fit it into my campaign.. It must be done, absolutely! > >Or maybe this scenario is even more epic: the demons have arrived on >Mystara again for the Millennium Tournament! They have chosen their >champions who will fight against Mystara's representatives in a Mortal >Combat ;) >However, some minions of the demons have been able to incapacitate beyond >recovery two of the Mystaran Heroes. The PCs must search the Multiverse for >two fighters of ultimate skill to join their group for this Duel. Somebody >in the crowd whispers two names: Thincol and Torenal.. but they're dead.. > >The PCs must go to Limbo, recover the souls of the two men (even for a >short time) and have them fight SIDE BY SIDE to save Mystara! > >But the demons have an ace up their sleeve.. [to be continued] > > >DM OH YES! That idea Roolz! Mortal Kombat meets Mystara... (Hmm - I wonder if theres a Tanar'ri called Shao Kahn out there :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:50:33 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, > but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). > Quick question: After WWII, was Quisling left in charge of Norway? I mean, here we have a guy that sold out his friend and homeland at their time of greatest need, formented and joined an alliance hostile to that homeland, and who is becoming fast friends with the people who used Weapons of Mass Distruction against the people of his native land (and who have, in the last decade, killed almost as many people of his homeland as live in his current Kingdom). Stefan is traitor scum. Surely someone better could be found. A Traldaran native (one of the folk disposessed by Stefan), perhaps. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:09:40 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) At 06:17 PM 7/16/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > >The Wish spell costing Immortals PP is one of the reasons I use the gold box >for Immortal magic. If the Immortal was mortal, he could cast wish for >nothing. Seems wrong to me... The Mortal Mage doesn't /really/ get to cast Wish for nothing. He would have (a) had to have access to the spell in a spell book and had to have memorized it (in lieu of another 9th level spell) or (b) have access to a Wish scroll or charged ring/wand and be willing to expend a charge. The Immortal, on the other hand, can cast the spell whenever and whyever he wants to, but has to have the PP to expend. Also, doesn't using Wish also cause aging in a mortal caster? Or is that AD&D? (My campaign is only at 3rd-5th level so I haven't read /any/ description for Wish for some time...) If this is the case, the use of PP by an Immortal could sort of be explained as an "Immortal Equivalent" to aging. >Anything that costs PP must be pretty darn earthshaking (after all, 2PP >could move Mystara into the centre of its sun, thus destroying the planet. >10PP must be pretty dazzling.) An Immortal Wish could be pretty earthshaking... assuming the Immortal used it properly. Don't you think that chances are an Immortal would also have a 'better chance' of getting the wish to do what he/she actually wanted it to do. Just my 2 passem worth ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Rob wrote: > > 30,000 legionnaries invade Karameikos (a conservative estimate, IMHO). > Karameikos goes under. Way under. The School of Magecraft is fragged by > the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, > but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). > Bit of support to Alfric Oderbry, and the CoK becomes the Thyatian Empires > best buddies. I have to completely disagree. The Karameikos have the elves and the WDL. The hin would march in due to their friendship with the monarchy and wanting a buffer between them and an expanding Thyatis. Aditionally although taking the main cites would be a cake walk there is a lot of wilderness out there that not even the Karameikan government has been able to extend its writ to. resistance would take forever to root out. Also, what is there in the Kara. that even 25 36th level mages would covet. They would be much better off doing other things with their time. I will grant you that one or two might be interested, and that they and their apprentices, a few clerics and a company could probably take The School of Magecraft. They wuld not be of use in the extended guerrella warfare that would take place after the initial invasion. I hink that at this moment an attack on the Karameikos would be suicidal. They would be much better off invading The Mithrod (sp) guilds (operation Hydra). Karameikos has the support of other countries which don't want an expanding Thyatis on their boarders. Darokin and The Five Shires come to mind. The Displaced Alfheim refugees would also fight madly to defend their new homeland. As would the Calarii and the Vylia (sp). (As far as the names go I don't have any books right now) It would take many more than 30,000 to take and hold the Karameikos, their would be little profit and it would take longer than the thyatan public, and even the nobles, would be willing to accept. They need to to attack the Karameikos a little bit less than Byzantium needed to attack, and hold all of, italy. I believe that an atack on the Guilds would be much better (Like North Africa). Diego *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:11:42 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) > > Also, doesn't using Wish also cause aging in a mortal caster? Or is that > AD&D? > You are correct: that's only AD&D. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #513 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 514 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City] Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Me too messages Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jul 98 11:33:57 PDT From: Cecil Cosman Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City] RISPEN@aol.com wrote: >Let us know when your ready I'm ready, please send whatever you have to the following email addres. Once I have enough stuff to get a decent picture going I will post the web address to the list. Here's the email address to contact me with ccosman@huntingdon.edu So send me whatever ideas you all have and I'll get to work. C.Cosman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:44:50 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Rob wrote: > Anything that costs PP must be pretty darn earthshaking (after all, 2PP > could move Mystara into the centre of its sun, thus destroying the planet. > 10PP must be pretty dazzling.) But you see, a mortal wish is restricted by the DM. An Immortal can do whatever he damn well pleases with a wish. Thus the PP use. Max IV - Urt died with the Gold Box. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:43 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << That is why I made my remark about Wendarian marriages lasting 50-100 years -- for a human that is "for life" but for an elf that leaves room for many marriages. Unless elves drastically shortened the length of time that elves were expected to stay together when they mated, the net result would be no change to human society. >> Please explain to us why you are so reluctant to accept a human (sub-)culture without marriage cermony. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:44 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? << It seems a lot of threads got (mercifully) a stake through the heart when we got our last message from our Friendly Minder. >> Is it a virus, or what? Why are there so many e-mail adresses out there in the moment bombing us with one e-mail again and again? Jamuga Khan "A really unhappy Khan." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:38 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << But how would they know who was a close relative if children don't even necessarily know both their parents? >> How do animals solve the problem? If necessary, on the hard way. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:40 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << If you consider Alfheim to be a RW example, you've been out on the steppes a bit too long;~) >> What? You don't know the plains of Alfheim which are said to be home of Elves some eons ago? :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:40 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << Eiryndul wanted the Shiye to be more warlike, less wussy than the Alfheimers. Not too surprising if he made them more human, then... (Or perhaps it was merely a different, more stereotypical writer from TSR...) The Savage Coast elves worship human Immortals (probably Valerias - in which case marriage is pretty well a must). >> Have you a reference that the Shiye have mariage customs? << I always imagined Wendar as Canada :). As far as human/elven culture goes, the humans and the elves coexist, but the elves have the definite upper hand (Wendar is an ELVEN realm, after all). Perhaps in Wendar humans dont marry? Its the humans who are isolated here (elves are cold resistant (at least AD+D ones are :) so they would be able to move around frozen Wendar easier than the humans) after all. Also I think Wendar elves were around before Wendarian humans. So perhaps the humans took to worshipping the elven Immortals over the years, as well, in their isolation... >> O.k., why not. I don't insist on Alfheim, but I would like to see a realm where the humans have taken over Elven customs. The normal way is vice versa and is becoming very boring. As you have solved the climatic problems I would say, that we could go ahead with Wendar as we have too much realms with an equally mixed Elven/Human population. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:36 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Big Announcement of the Mighty Khan Unfortunately I have to state that my always trusted and solid advisor Ethenor has made a severe error in promising a PHB.ZIP description about our land and people. Be assured that he will be punished adequately. One moment, please... ("Yes, I've said 'Cut him two fingers!'. So do it, or you will be the next!" "Yes, my Khan, I hear and obey!" "Good! Proceed then!") Sorry, little administration problems. I must admit that I'm not able to send files more than 3 MB to non-AOL users, so that ARJ remains as the only possibility. I can add an ARJ though, so please tell me, if you want it or not. I will be waiting for more interested people anyhow. All who have already subscribed will get a message about this. Jamuga Khan "The most inconsolable Khan of Mystara." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:43 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? << I'd like to see some thoughts on Thyatis' future (or even if your opinion is "they don't have one; they're NACE bait" which seems to be a consensus opinion in some circles). >> Who has caused such an impression? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:47:42 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << I've associated Wendar with Canada as well. Climate-wise it's similar (at least to eastern Canada, specifically Ontario), anyway. You wouldn't guess, given how scrrewy our weather's been lately :-( [35 degrees Celsius and more this week, with high humidity - yikes, feels more like the northern coast of Davania]. Geoff >> I could kill you for that, Geoff! We have only around 12 -18 degrees Celsius in Germany for weeks now. :-( But you're right, according to all known informations the Belcadiz elves originated from Davania. OTOH the elves must had had contact to Blackmoor as they had all the technology developed in Blackmoor (look HW Blacklore Elves). With railways, Diesel-driven ships and aeroplanes no wonder, I would say. Don't forget that Blackmoor probably had all those things we have now in Real World, at least the last centuries before the Great Rain of Fire. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:33:25 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? << A quick war taking the lucrative islands of Minrothad and Ierendi would be a great start (Are there any Minrothad or Ierendi fans out there?), then turn their eyes to the former colonies. >> Despite of "Operation Hydra" I don't believe that it would be so simple. The Ierendians and the Minrothaddans are good sailors and their waters are dangerous. A Thyatian aggression fleet would be sunk to three quarters before even landing their soldiers. I don't think that conquering the both island realms would be worth the work or acceptable by Mystaran fans. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:33:24 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) << Sorry again to all for the problems that our system crash did to the list. Anyway there was a topic on howcome not everyone with 9 int becomes a mage. Here`s my slant on it. To become a mage you MUST successfully learn two of the first three spells taught whilst an apprentice. We canuse the spell research rule to work this out, 2(Int+lvl)-3lvl of spell, and the probability of 2 out of 3 is, ...>> IMHO much too complicated. The solution that you must have the genetic ability to cast spells is much more elegant. This of course means that a PC magic-user always has the ability. For NPC the DM has to make the decision. I really don't believe that we'll need rules for that. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:33:26 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal << But the demons have an ace up their sleeve.. [to be continued] >> Yeah, and some demons even have more than two sleeves I assume... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:54:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: > << A quick war taking the lucrative islands of Minrothad and Ierendi > would be a great start (Are there any Minrothad or Ierendi fans out > there?), then turn their eyes to the former colonies. >> > > Despite of "Operation Hydra" I don't believe that it would be so > simple. The Ierendians and the Minrothaddans are good sailors > and their waters are dangerous. A Thyatian aggression fleet > would be sunk to three quarters before even landing their soldiers. I think that it is much better than any other places they could attack. Also, why attack Ierendi? I think that a surgical strike, en mass, against the Guilds would put much of the wealth of the islands in the hands of the Thyatans. There is not other location as profitable as the guilds. Anditionally, I think that the reasons given in Operation Hydra are plausable. Not neccesarily that it would work out that way, but they are fairly sound. The biggest problem would be finding pilots that know the water, but that would not be too hard.Think about how water based the Thytain Empire really is. They may not like the water, they might not be as good fighting on the water, but they have to know something about sailing. I think that much more than 3/4 of the ships would land. This situation is much better than any other due to the lack of available allies to the Thaders and the ability to hold an island after the suprise attack. Who knows. the Thyatans could see what they get and then sue for peace about the time that serious resistance is being organzed. Also, merely looting and returning home might be an even better idea because then they will have the wealth, but not waste man power or the treasury holding rebellious land. > I don't think that conquering the both island realms would be > worth the work or acceptable by Mystaran fans. i don't know. it would be interesting to see how the Islands faired with the new government system. They might be allowed to remain free and then pay a fee every year. Who knows I think that the Thyatan empire needs a victory right now. Also, they are not all that threatened by NACE although, they probably could not advance too far in that direction. Diego *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:30:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > I think that the Thyatan empire needs a victory right now. > As Jamuga points out, the "powers that be" will never let Thyatis have any sort of victory, least of all against the places that have been discussed (Minrothad, Ierendi, Quislingland) so far. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:49:33 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >Thytain Empire really is. They may not like the water, they might not be >as good fighting on the water, but they have to know something about >sailing. I think that much more than 3/4 of the ships would land. > This situation is much better than any other due to the lack of >available allies to the Thaders and the ability to hold an island after >the suprise attack. Who knows. the Thyatans could see what they get and >then sue for peace about the time that serious resistance is being >organzed. Minrothad's greaest naval advantage may be the close relationship amongst the Meditor, Verdier, and Aquarendi. The Aquarendi, in turn, are closely allied with the Merrow of the Sunlit Sea and the Tritons of Undersea, so the Thyatians could face a massive assault from beneath that they were never expecting. I doubt that the Thyatians would have as easy a time as you are suggesting. >Also, merely looting and returning home might be an even better >idea because then they will have the wealth, but not waste man power or >the treasury holding rebellious land. I agree that this would be more profitable, but it a) is not Thyatis' style and b) would shatter any chance of other nations dealing with Thyatis except with the utmost caution. Remember, since the Aegos affair, Minrothad and Thyatis have officially been allied IIRC, and it never looks good to sack your allies just to get rich. If Eusebius does so this early in his career, he will permanently destroy his foreign relations, IMO. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:58:34 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs >Please explain to us why you are so reluctant to accept >a human (sub-)culture without marriage cermony. Even though this was not directed at me, I'll respond. It's not that I don't want a human culture without marriage (after all, two societies, Alphatia and Yavdlom, have very slight marriage customs), but more that I don't think Wendar is the place. I've already given my reasons for this. Moreover, I think we need something more solid than "I'm sure that there are RW examples of societies without marriage, I just can't think of any." There is a reason that marriage is so ubiquitous on Earth--it works. Free sex is not good for society, at least from a standard sociological viewpoint. I don't see elven adoption of human marriage tradition as "elves adopting human culture," but rather "elves adopting a superior system." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:42:33 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Me too messages Hi everybody, I've seen several "Me too - sorry" posts lately. IMO there's no point in writing "Me too - sorry", because either you're truly sorry and so you reply directly to the sender and not to the MML, or you don't care at all and so you should just write "Me too". I'm neither Leroy, nor Jenni so don't flame me for writing this :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:00:11 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Dungeon magazine Despite what the website says, the DUNGEON address is dungeon@wizards.com in case anyone was wondering. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:14:09 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Hey, I don't know who originally wrote the quote below, but I wanted to reply: << A quick war taking the lucrative islands of Minrothad and Ierendi would be a great start (Are there any Minrothad or Ierendi fans out there?), then turn their eyes to the former colonies. >> Minrothad wise, I hava a character in someone else's campaign who is a MU from Minrothad -- she's real fun to play. She's a member of the Tutorial Guild of course, but her father is a member of whichever family guild it is that has a branch specializing in aquiring and reselling 'extraordinary' magical items. So, at home, she has different pressures on what she should do with her skills. I love trying to work withing the whole 'Guild First' mentality thing, especailly as she's currently in Karameikos and out on a sort of quest where the Tutorial guild will not provide any particular help. For Ierendi, I'm thinking of swinging the PC's in my own campaign over thataway sometime soonish, although not for a very long stay this time around (they have bigger things to move on to in the West...) I know some people don't like the 'amusing' atmosphere of Ierendi, but I think its neat. Not everything in a fantasy world has to be 100% serious. Ierendi is the perfect way that the DM of a 'realistic role-playing campaign' can throw in a 'Monty Haul' or 'Hack 'n Slash' type adventure just for the sheer fun of it. :-) So, I guess you could say I'm a Minrothad and Ierendi fan, but as far as your war idea goes -- hey, I never have problems with anyone pushing down, lifting up, moving around or otherwise mucking about with any particular area of Mystara. My own campaign is so far removed from 'canon' anyway that I just go with whatever I like, whenever I want to use it. Like WotI will probably never happen for me -- I just have no interest in that kind of thing -- so anything that normally happens as a result of that might not happen either! So, go ahead and trash the Island chains if you want -- as long as you do it in way that makes it an interesting read. ;-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- An extremely tolerant and laid back Mom ;-) - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:14:07 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:49:33 -0700 "Patrick Sullivan" writes: >Minrothad's greaest naval advantage may be the close relationship >amongst >the Meditor, Verdier, and Aquarendi. The Aquarendi, in turn, are >closely >allied with the Merrow of the Sunlit Sea and the Tritons of Undersea, >so the >Thyatians could face a massive assault from beneath that they were >never >expecting. I doubt that the Thyatians would have as easy a time as >you are >suggesting. A correction. Even if you do not go by my Undersea timeline, Minrothad is an enemy of Undersea and the Aquarendi. Ierendi, on the other hand, has friendly relations with both. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:53:02 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> 30,000 legionnaries invade Karameikos (a conservative estimate, IMHO). >> Karameikos goes under. Way under. The School of Magecraft is fragged by >> the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, >> but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). >> Bit of support to Alfric Oderbry, and the CoK becomes the Thyatian Empires >> best buddies. > >I have to completely disagree. The Karameikos have the elves and the WDL. >The hin would march in due to their friendship with the monarchy and >wanting a buffer between them and an expanding Thyatis. Aditionally >although taking the main cites would be a cake walk there is a lot of >wilderness out there that not even the Karameikan government has been able >to extend its writ to. resistance would take forever to root out. Well, Karameikos is ringed by mountains with only a very limited number of passes (and, indeed, ability to move large bodies of troops by any means, other than the sea). A few elite units could hold the few passes for a long time, certainly long enough for Thyatis to have the rest of the country under the thumb. Usual military tactic - cut the enemy off from his allies, cut off his support, and move in in massive strength. Besides, who else is in the WDL? Darokin? Darokin cares about CASH (something which a lot of people here seem to have forgotten). Seems that Darokins most lucrative sources of cash are - the sea (Minrothad territory) Glantri (odd trinkets, books and stuff) Thyatis (everything else - a place with such a huge population means huge potential markets) Also Darokin is ostensibly a republic. Such a government would most likely be unable to take swift, decisive action - and thus it would be too late. And after it has been too late, they could well just say - oh well. Having read a few 70s military projections of WW3 (ie what the Generals were ready for) not even all the NATO countries (a pretty tightly knit lot) were willing to be "in there" from word go... (Alliances are broken all the time. Thats life. The Russians were allies of America during WW2 (looking at raw statistics they were the country most responsible for Germany's defeat). Not after tho.) As for the elves - well, the Vyalia elves are, if anything, pro Thyatian (They have got a Thyatian dominion, affter all - not a Karameikan one). The Alfheimers could easily become pro Thyatian (if Thyatis offered support in the elven quest to retake Aengmor). Elves arent particularly honourable (good, but Chaotic good). Resistance movements are only really powerful when technology makes individual soldiers a fearsome threat. (ie an M16). Without the ability to at least inflict large amounts of damage on the opposition with their forces they will be, at best, merely a distraction. Of course, Thyatis could use the England vs Scotland tactic as well - keep the Traladaran clans at each others throats, too busy to take on the Thyatians. After all, as far as many Traladarans care, Karameikos has already been invaded by Thyatis - the removal of Stefan would seem an irrelevancy - especially all those Traladarans who live out in the wilderness, and have not become New Age Karameikans... >Also, what is there in the Kara. that even 25 36th level mages would >covet. They would be much better off doing other things with their time. >I will grant you that one or two might be interested, and that they and >their apprentices, a few clerics and a company could probably take The >School of Magecraft. They wuld not be of use in the extended guerrella >warfare that would take place after the initial invasion. Well, that was just a highly conservative estimate of how many high level mages Thyatis could field against Karameikos. Assuming a mere 10% actually get involved at all. Lets face it - if the Karameikan School of Magecraft (basically, Zeroville) can field mages, Thyatis (Collegium Arcanum, DM?) should be able to field substantially more... A nation like Thyatis must (and does) have military mages, whose job is to fight in wars. As for extended guerrilla warfare... That requires dedication. I reckon only a few Karameikans would actually be ready for that. Very few Thyatians would join any "Heroic Resistance" - 99% would do nothing. And the Traladarans would start killing each other (hey - thats how Thyatis conquered the place originally!) >I hink that at this moment an attack on the Karameikos would be suicidal. >They would be much better off invading The Mithrod (sp) guilds (operation >Hydra). Karameikos has the support of other countries which don't want >an expanding Thyatis on their boarders. Darokin and The Five Shires come >to mind. The Displaced Alfheim refugees would also fight madly to defend >their new homeland. As would the Calarii and the Vylia (sp). (As far as >the names go I don't have any books right now) The Five Shires??? Even checking out PWA armies, these little guys are not a problem. Clan Vyalia is pro Thyatian, definitely not Karameikan. The whole thing is irrelevant, because they are also isolationist... The Alfheimers could likely be diverted with a bit of diplomacy. The Calarii would probably go for it, tho. Well, yeah, Minrothad would be a lot easier. Even then though, there are consequences. What if a worried Ierendi gets involved, and the Royal Navy blows away the Thyatian warfleet? I KNOW the Royal Navy could frag the Thyatian fleet. I am not so sure of any land battles, however. >It would take many more than 30,000 to take and hold the Karameikos, their >would be little profit and it would take longer than the thyatan public, >and even the nobles, would be willing to accept. They need to to attack >the Karameikos a little bit less than Byzantium needed to attack, and hold >all of, italy. I believe that an atack on the Guilds would be much better >(Like North Africa). Bit of diplomacy and Karameikos (who deserted Thyatis in their darkest hour - Thyatis, the unjustly unloved Defender of the KW) would seem to the Thyatian public to be Absolute Scum worthy of utter annihilation. With more diplomacy other nations could be made to regard it merely as a Thyatian reabsorption after a treacherous secession. (Glantri might even go for it, if it lowers the School of Magecraft :) And given that 30,000 is roughly half the population of Mirros, thats a lot of troops. And it only represents a fraction of the Thyatian STANDING army (ie, before reserves are brought up...) I know full well that it would be a risky thing to do. But better Thyatis does something, rather than the nothing it has done for the last 5 years. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:58:26 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, >> but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). >> >Quick question: After WWII, was Quisling left in charge of Norway? > > I mean, here we have a guy that sold out his friend and homeland at their >time of greatest need, formented and joined an alliance hostile to that >homeland, and who is becoming fast friends with the people who used Weapons >of Mass Distruction against the people of his native land (and who have, in >the last decade, killed almost as many people of his homeland as live in >his current Kingdom). > Stefan is traitor scum. Surely someone better could be found. A Traldaran >native (one of the folk disposessed by Stefan), perhaps. Well. Depends on how much of a symbol Stefan is to his people. But a Traladaran in charge... (Magda Marilenev as puppet ruler?). The Thyatians could be appeased by a visible Imperial presence again. Clan Marilenev would be happy. The other clans wouldnt, but, hey, there are always dissidents... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #514 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 515 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:01:00 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs ><< Eiryndul wanted the Shiye to be more warlike, less wussy than the > Alfheimers. Not too surprising if he made them more human, then... (Or > perhaps it was merely a different, more stereotypical writer from TSR...) > The Savage Coast elves worship human Immortals (probably Valerias - in > which case marriage is pretty well a must). >> > >Have you a reference that the Shiye have mariage customs? No, but I thought some Alphatia expert knew something of this, so I deferred to superior knowledge. Cheerz ROB (Hey - the Khan agreed with me? Have I been smoking dubious weed again?) :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:07:12 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) >Max IV - Urt died with the Gold Box. Noooooooo.............. Urt was cool. Besides, Urt was the one who granted druidic spells. The Mystaran version of Gaea! Urt has just had a stomach pump, or something, so its hollow. (BTW - I always figured the World Shield was Urt, and everything else just accumulated dirt. The World Shield has Anti Magic, and Immortal phenomenom - perhaps this is Urt's A-M?) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:07:41 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > Of course, Thyatis could use the England vs Scotland tactic as well - > keep the Traladaran clans at each others throats, too busy to take on the > Thyatians. After all, as far as many Traladarans care, Karameikos has > already been invaded by Thyatis - the removal of Stefan would seem an > irrelevancy - especially all those Traladarans who live out in the > wilderness, and have not become New Age Karameikans... > Numerous Traldaran's may even look upon a Thyatian invasion as a (partial) liberation. After all, when Thyatis governed the place (between 900-960), they left the Traldaran's pretty much alone. When Stefan took over, he immediately disposessed the Traldarans, handed out the land to his cronies, and crushed the resulting rebellion. > Lets face it - if the Karameikan School of Magecraft (basically, > Zeroville) can field mages, Thyatis (Collegium Arcanum, DM?) should be able > to field substantially more... A nation like Thyatis must (and does) have > military mages, whose job is to fight in wars. > That's another thing that has been (it seems to me) completely forgotten in recient years, absolutely unconcionably. > As for extended guerrilla warfare... That requires dedication. I > reckon only a few Karameikans would actually be ready for that. Very few > Thyatians would join any "Heroic Resistance" - 99% would do nothing. > Considering that Stefan is a Quisling that has sold out his (and their) native land to his people's greatest foes (foes that, one must remember, have killed almost as many of their people as live in Traldara itself in recient years), and become a collaborator of the worst order, IMO they would likely side with their native land (Thyatis), not with Quislingboy. > > Bit of diplomacy and Karameikos (who deserted Thyatis in their darkest > hour - Thyatis, the unjustly unloved Defender of the KW) would seem to the > Thyatian public to be Absolute Scum worthy of utter annihilation. > c.f. my continues screeds on this subject. "Concordia" my ass, that ship should have been christened "Collaborator" > With more > diplomacy other nations could be made to regard it merely as a Thyatian > reabsorption after a treacherous secession. > At least then their opinions would accurately reflect reality, not base pro-Stefan propaganda (I wonder who his Goebbels is?) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:19:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > Well. Depends on how much of a symbol Stefan is to his people. But a > Traladaran in charge... (Magda Marilenev as puppet ruler?). The Thyatians > could be appeased by a visible Imperial presence again. Clan Marilenev > would be happy. The other clans wouldnt, but, hey, there are always > dissidents... > Who says Traldara would have to stay one dominion? Obviously, the Dymrak region would go to Vyalia (since Vyalia Elves live there), and one or two other Elven dominions would be created (one for the Callahari, one for the Alfheimers). There could be a Barony (or County) of Vorloi, Duchy of Traldara itself (Marilenev), and fiefdoms for other worthy folk (Thyatian or Traldaran). IMO, the Traldarans make a good grouping with the other "Thyatians" (Kerendans, Thyatians themselves. Though noitably *not* the Hattians). Traldara has always seemed to me (along with Minrothad) a natural appendage/addition to Thyatis. The main reason IMO that it was scripted independance was because it was established that way as far back as X1, and a way to describe how that occured was retroactively "fitted" to the situation as things were described in more detail. But in retrospect it all seems rather artificial to me. Of course, we're *way* deep into fantasy land here (I can here it now, though: Hey! this is a fantasy world, remember! We're *supposed to be in "fantasy land"!) But my point with that statement is that there is almost no chance that most of these ideas will get anywhere ("highly dubious" is a kind assessment of the chances of the Net Almanac team letting Thyatis absorb Traldara or Minrothad or Ierendi). IMO, these are my "personal" choices for additions as well (like I said, they make natural, IMO, additions to the empire. And it is *because* I like places such as Min. & Ierendi that I think so. I wouldn't *too* much disrupt their character. After all, Alphatia had it's "resort area" [Gaity], so Thyatis could have a "tourist land" [Ierendi], and I've always thought of Thyatis as more merchantile-oriented than others seem to think, so Min. is a good pairing also. And I've already talked about the Traldaran component). And Thyatians are better sailors/naval types than some are giving them credit for being (but then these are the same folks, generally, who don't think Thyatis is capable of anything but corruption & civil strife, so. . . .) But, alas, these are pipe dreams. It *may* be possible to get Ochalea & Pearl Islands back (If they aren't grabbed up for NACE first), and prevent further losses. But I doubt these other ideas (as much as I'd also love to see 'em happen) will fly. Ok, but we've talked a lot about external things that could help a recovery (landgrabs and the like), but only a couple people have mentioned internal reforms/recovery ideas. Anyone got any other good ones? Or even bad ones? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:45:17 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? Since I signed up for this list, I've gotten about 60 messages in two days. Does anyone here still play in the Mystara world using the Basic/Classic Dungeons and Dragons rules? I love Basic, and was wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic fans out there! - -BC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:48:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? > > Since I signed up for this list, I've gotten about 60 messages in two > days. Does anyone here still play in the Mystara world using the > Basic/Classic Dungeons and Dragons rules? I love Basic, and was > wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic > fans out there! > A lot of people do. I still refer to it and go back to thouse rules on occassion myself. IMO, there is a lot to commend in the D&D rules (as compiled in the Cyclopedia). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:29:02 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? BC wrote: > >Since I signed up for this list, I've gotten about 60 messages in two >days. Does anyone here still play in the Mystara world using the >Basic/Classic Dungeons and Dragons rules? I love Basic, and was >wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic >fans out there! If you count basic as using the Rules Cyclopedia, then I do as well. I'm probably a reactionary , but I am one of those people who never converted over to AD&D, and who in fact converted some AD&Ders over to D&D. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:44:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Rob wrote: > Urt was cool. Besides, Urt was the one who granted druidic spells. The > Mystaran version of Gaea! Urt had a less than 2 line mention in the GB. In WoTI, it does mention that the power to create a "Hollow World" is only 45 PP (I think) Also remember that the GB assumed that Mystara was Earth. I don't deny that maybe Megaliths exist, but Mystara is NOT one of them. At least IMO :D But opinion is what drives a DM's campaign isn't it? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:46:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: > wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic > fans out there! I'm thinking over half the Davania Group: Myself and Geoff, Alex and a few others all play old style (old school?) D&D. I'm sure that there are al lot of "closet" D&D fans out there, ESPECIALLY among mystara lovers. It is our world you know :) Max IV - D&D Lover since 5th grade. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:42:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >30,000 legionnaries invade Karameikos (a conservative estimate, IMHO). >Karameikos goes under. Way under. The School of Magecraft is fragged by >the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, >but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). >Bit of support to Alfric Oderbry, and the CoK becomes the Thyatian Empires >best buddies. > There are a few things getting in the way of those 30,000 legionnaires. First of all, there are three displaced Alfheim clans sitting there, who will not take kindly to the Thyatians invading their new home. Secondly, the people of Karameikos will not sit back and let the elves do all the work; we have our own armies, as well as the Order of the Griffon. Don't think we will sit idly by and allow the Thyatians to retake our homeland. And that includes both the Thyatians and the Traladarans of Karameikos. It's our home, and you can't have it. Thirdly, the School of Magecraft is run by a very powerful Alphatian wizard. Master Terari will not be easy to defeat, even by those Thyatian wizards. He has a lot of friends back in the Alphatian territory, some of whom will come to his aid. Fourthly, there is the Western Defense League. The Shires and Darokin will send troops to help. Darokin would impose trade sanctions against Thyatis; don't even think for a second those would be negligible, since Darokin's influence in the trade markets is more than obvious. The Shires have a strong navy, as well as a lot of pirates. Thyatian shipping would be hurt. Ierendi would certainly not like to see Thyatian expansion over Brun. Vestland might also join in, since they are in the process of being admitted to the League. Karameikos has a lot of friends, and a lot of resources. Thyatis would do well to ponder that before invading us. Sir Alexius Dannelaran Knight of the Griffon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:25:31 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!! It is the 6th, 7th, and 8th of August! At 07:54 PM 7/14/98 +0200, Tomas Sanchez wrote: >Ambreville@aol.com wrote: >> It's still in Milwaukee at least until Y2K included -- when the >> contract w/Andon comes to an end. After this, I don't think any >> decision has been made as of yet. >> I'll be at GenCon touring the booths and meeting old friends. >> Hope to see a few of you -- finally a chance to put faces on >> some of these names! :o) > >When will it start and how many days it will be ? I have been >invited to visit the USA next September. Although the great >lakes region is far from Milwaukee ( i guess ) maybe i could >persuade my friend to visit it. > >PostData : Does anyone lives near Erie ? > >Tomas Sanchez >deckard@encomix.es >#ICQ : 9190040 > > > >WARNING: The remainder of this message has not been transferred. >The estimated size of this message is 2948 bytes. >Click on the server retrieve icon above and check mail again to get the whole thing. If the server retrieve icon is not showing, then this message is no longer on the server. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:47:01 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >Fourthly, there is the Western Defense League. The Shires and Darokin will >send troops to help. Darokin would impose trade sanctions against Thyatis; >don't even think for a second those would be negligible, since Darokin's >influence in the trade markets is more than obvious. The Shires have a >strong navy, as well as a lot of pirates. Thyatian shipping would be hurt. This is an excellent point. Even if (as some have suggested) Darokin does not intervene militarily, trade sanctions could really cripple Thyatis. Particularly since mainland Thyatis relies on Darokin for food. We'd see "Bread Riots, part II." Along the same lines, the Imperial treasury must be nearly empty by now--as far back as 1010, the PWA warned that Thincol was beggaring his nation for years to come--IMHO this means more than five or six years. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:50:21 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >A correction. Even if you do not go by my Undersea timeline, Minrothad >is an enemy of Undersea and the Aquarendi. Ierendi, on the other hand, >has friendly relations with both. It's been years since I DMed an Undersea group, so I've never read your timeline and I haven't read PC2 in a while. But I remember very clearly that the Aquarendi are allied with the elves of Minrothad. Where is a canon reference otherwise? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:58:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? > Since I signed up for this list, I've gotten about 60 messages in two > days. Does anyone here still play in the Mystara world using the > Basic/Classic Dungeons and Dragons rules? I love Basic, and was > wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic > fans out there! I assume a good chunk of the list. Most of the Mystara products came out in the D&D system and very few in the ADND one. The work of transferring the material might interest some people but many prefer to use the system in which the material originated. Plus some of us probably think it's a better system anyhow, though I'm a bit less confident in that assumption than in my guess that it is the major system used for Mystara. There was a reason Leroy made D&D/non-Mystara topics legit on the list (though they have been rarely discussed). Mischa, hoping *someone* responds to his Jennite post Many opponents of "big government" assert or imply that bigness is of itself inefficient. This is an odd complaint to hear from executives of General Motors - Garry Wills *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:45:12 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! - ---------- > From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu > Since I signed up for this list, I've gotten about 60 messages in two > days. Does anyone here still play in the Mystara world using the > Basic/Classic Dungeons and Dragons rules? I love Basic, and was > wondering if I'm alone in my appreciation or if there are other Basic > fans out there! Hi! I am new to this list (and mailing lists as a whole), but I thought this would be a good chance to come out of the shadows I have been lurking in for the last couple of days. IMO, D&D is far more fun than AD&D, and while I am willing to play either of them, on those rare occasions I DM, I always go with D&D, and always with Mystara. I think the only real advantage AD&D has is a better range of resources, such as a wider selection of creatures, spells, magic items and such. But I often convert these over; I own a fair bit of AD&D stuff bought soley for D&D. I have recently been reading a friend's Planescape books, and have been really enjoying it. I think I may pick up some of the stuff for it and give it a try in a future game. Has anyone ever done this? If so many of the people on the list play AD&D, I would imagine someone has. How well did it work out? The Planescape version seems so much more colorful. P.S. This is the first e-mail I have sent to a list from my Hotmail account. If anyone has a problem with it, could they let me know? It seems I have to press Enter at the end of every line or the text keeps scrolling off the right (is there a term for that?), which is very irritating. My friends tell me this causes problems on mailing lists if I don't take these measures. Thanks! :) Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:47:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > This is an excellent point. Even if (as some have suggested) Darokin does > not intervene militarily, trade sanctions could really cripple Thyatis. > Particularly since mainland Thyatis relies on Darokin for food. > Thyatis could import grain from all it's colonies. > Along the same lines, the Imperial treasury must be > nearly empty by now--as far back as 1010, the PWA warned that Thincol was > beggaring his nation for years to come--IMHO this means more than five or > six years. > If NACE can recover instantly, then I see no reason why Thyatis is held to a higher standard. Similarly, if Glantri, a landlocked nation with no nautical experience or shipyards can instantly build & crew 20 ships, I see no reason why Thyatis should be held to a higher standard than that. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:25:27 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > But my point with that statement is that there is almost no chance that > most of these ideas will get anywhere ("highly dubious" is a kind > assessment of the chances of the Net Almanac team letting Thyatis absorb > Traldara or Minrothad or Ierendi). > But, alas, these are pipe dreams. It *may* be possible to get Ochalea & > Pearl Islands back (If they aren't grabbed up for NACE first), and prevent > further losses. But I doubt these other ideas (as much as I'd also love to > see 'em happen) will fly. > Point is, regarding this back and forth dialog, is that *anything* can be scripted, if someone wants to (events in NACE/Esterhold show that, as does the successful construction & crewing of a fleet by a land-locked nation with no previous nautical experience). If the folks in control of these things decide that Alphatia is a hotbed of democratic republicanism, then that's what it is. If they decide that NACE can recover instantly from anything, and that land-locked nations are capable of great feats of shipbuilding, then they can. Conversely, if they decide that Thyatis can or cannot begin a recovery process, can or cannot expand, then that is what will happen. Anything can be scripted, given sufficient creativity and willpower. As events in NACE & Glantri prove. IMO, no one nation should be held to higher realism standards than the others. However, it is a virtual given, as I have said before, that these nations that have been discussed (Minrothad, Ierendi, Vichy Traldara) will not become part of the Thyatian Empire. Not because it couldn't be scripted into the plot, but because there is no desire to do so. Which *isn't* to say that is a criticism: there are (probably) a number of good reasons why the "script writers" wouldn't want to take the "plotline" in such a direction (notably all the Karameikos fans who'd be outraged, and one needs to please one's audience). However, as far as territorial stuff, I *do* think it would be possible to bring Ochalea & the Pearl Islands back into the fold, as well as expand into Davinia, and regain Westrourke & Helskir, which would represent a pretty decient "recovery," territorially (the 1000 AC borders, plus Aegos, Dunadale, and new parts of Davinia.) As much as some people (myself included) would be gleeful over some aquisitions (the aforementioned ones), I just don't think any of that is in the cards. PERHAPS, though, Minrothad & Thyatis could become closer allies, and Stefan could be "encouraged" by an outraged Karameikan population to stop collaborating with Alphatia & work with his homeland. In addition, given the Twaelar thing, Thyatis & Ierendi could work closer together, thereby gradually aleviating old historical wounds/distrust, and developing stronger ties. Good allies & friends make a nation stronger too, remember; you don't need to conquer everyone outright. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:45:11 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Hmm...seen a few posts regarding Operation Hydra as a means for Thyatis to pick itself up from the ashes. As the author that penned that little ditty, I think it would be wise to explain some of Hydra. Hopefully, I can do it in this one post instead of answering each individual post. Why War? Why not. Thyatis is traditionally a warlike expansionist empire. It's an empire afterall. A quick victory against a economically able nation is needed. It could take years to develop a backwards area to contribute its proper share to the treasury. Thyatis needs a military win to build up domestic unity. That unity was lost somewhat after Alphatia sank. Without the threat of Alphatia the need for owing fealty to Thyatis City is weakened. National pride was also hurt during Wrath. A military victory would help this. Thyatis needs a military victory to prove their might. Not only to themselves, but also to their neighbors. Why Minrothad? Minrothad is a rich nation. It is also a small nation. Minrothad is also strategically placed between Brun and the Hinterlands. And who would think Thyatis would assault Minrothad. Thyatis does have cause. Minrothad bluffed them on Aegos. And the Guilds were neutral during Wrath. By not siding with Thyatis the Thadders actually aided Alphatia. Minrothad is a trade competitor to Thyatis. Minrothad Military IMO the Thadder security is a red herring. Their defensive forces are small. This is made worse in that Minrothad is a collection of islands. Most would say that it makes the Guilds an ideal defensive area like England in ww2. However, the Thadder islands are numerous and the military must cover all of these. Therefore you have a scenario more akin to Japan ww2, that affords an island hopping campaign. And Thyatis does not have to take all of the islands. Thyatis's War Plan To conquer Minrothad Guilds, Thyatis strikes in a strategic campaign instead of wanting to take each island. Their objective is to occupy Trader Island: Harbortown and Minrothad City. Winning the sea is not as vital as securing a sealane to support the troops. To secure a sealane, Thyatis sets secondary objectives on Open Island and Fire Island. To deal with the legendary Thadder Navy, Thyatis uses the age old tactic of attrition with a twist. The twist being that Thyatis does not engage the Thadders. Instead they force the Thadders to engage them. The Thyatian naval units are clustered enmass as to outnumber any attacking force. The Thyatian navy's role is to keep the Thadder Navy out of the war as much as it is to destroy it. Foreign Repurcussions IMO Minrothad will not get any real allies. May be a great deal of activity from the ambassedors. Thyatis is known as being sneaky so the attack on Minrothad may be a surprise, an attack itself should not be. The Guilds were neutral during Wrath and show little signs of allegiance to any nation aside from trade relations. Since most WDL nations have trade relations with Thyatis little will change tradewise. Unified WDL aid would be difficult to bring together. WDL does not include Minrothad. It would take only one nation to abstain and the deal falls through. Darokin is a competitor of the Guilds. As a republic it cannot make a quick decision to wage war. War would be costly for Darokin with little opportunity for a proper return. I doubt Darokin would risk all out war for Minrothad. Karameikos may react. But could it? The Karameikan Navy is pitifully small. Not sure what it could do. I really do not think Stephan wants to risk war with Thyatis over Minrothad. Five Shires. Same as Karameikos and Darokin. After Open Island is attacked, they do assemble a "volunteer force" however it is too little too late. The halfling armada has to turn back. NACE will not interfere as they have no need. Plus, if they wanted to aid would see troops having to make a long arduous sail into Thyatian waters and near Thyatian ports. Ending the War Thyatis focuses on the seat of Thadder government. That taken, trade is disrupted. Thyatis really does not need the demihumans (dwarves and elves). In fact, with Trader Island occupied the demihumans will need Thyatis. So a peace can be reached with them. Thyatian rule is favorable to the thadders. The Thyatians are ruled fairly lighthanded. Guilds function on operating under their own authority. As long as they obey the Thyatian governor and pay their tribute and taxes there are no problems. Why Ierendi? Ierendi comes in as an afterthought. They are a threat to Thyatis and its occupation of MG. Added to that, MG forces (mostly navy) and officials flee to Ierendi. Bolstered by the success in MG Thyatis attacks. It wins but the cost is high as Ierendi becomes a meatgrinder. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:58:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > > Why Ierendi? > Ierendi comes in as an afterthought. They are a threat to Thyatis and its > occupation of MG. Added to that, MG forces (mostly navy) and officials flee to > Ierendi. Bolstered by the success in MG Thyatis attacks. It wins but the cost > is high as Ierendi becomes a meatgrinder. > IMO Ierendi could not/would not become a "meatgrinder". Ierendi would either win a decisive naval victory, or it would loose utterly. Ierendi is, in terms of a "long war" even worse off than Minrothad: their economy is dependant upon tourism (which would be disrupted in a "meatgrinder"/attrition situation), they are outnumbered roughly 46:1 by Thyatis, and almost all their population is in one locale (Ierendi Island itself, with much in Ierendi City; the other islands are comparitively depopulated). Thyatis could use it's Air Ships, thus avoiding a sea battle all together, occupying Ierendi city and resupplying/supporting by air if needed. Honor Island mages would be the most significant threat, but if left alone, they'll leave folks alone (they agreed to help Ierendi, providing Fire Ships to Ierendi's fleet, for this very reason, but otherwise are indifferent at best to Ierendi's fate, and if presented with a fait accompi: occupation of Ierendi, but "hands off" Honor Island, they'll go back to their reasurches, like good "Ivory Tower" academics). Ierendi cannot win, or even engage in, a protracted ("meatgrinder") war against Thyatis. However, *if* their navy can secure a decisive victory, then they'd secure their freedom. But Thyatis wouldn't need to even engage their navy; a surprise, aerial assault on Ierendi City (Pearl Harbor style), catching Ierendi's fleet in port, would do the trick. And, unlike America, Ierendi City is Ierendi, in a way that Pearl Harbor was not America. Once occupied (which Thyatis can do by air, but the Japanese could not at Honolulu), any chance of recovery would be forfit. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:47:50 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >>Fourthly, there is the Western Defense League. The Shires and Darokin will >>send troops to help. Darokin would impose trade sanctions against Thyatis; >>don't even think for a second those would be negligible, since Darokin's >>influence in the trade markets is more than obvious. The Shires have a >>strong navy, as well as a lot of pirates. Thyatian shipping would be hurt. >This is an excellent point. Even if (as some have suggested) Darokin does >not intervene militarily, trade sanctions could really cripple Thyatis. Something people forget about sanctions is that they hurt the nation imposing them, as well - its a two way deal. I imagine America wouldn't be up for putting meaningful sanctions on Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, now? The majority of Darokinian trade must go through Thyatis. Where else are bulk goods going to be traded in the KW? Ethengar? The Northern Reaches? >Particularly since mainland Thyatis relies on Darokin for food. We'd see >"Bread Riots, part II." Along the same lines, the Imperial treasury must be >nearly empty by now--as far back as 1010, the PWA warned that Thincol was >beggaring his nation for years to come--IMHO this means more than five or >six years. Like someone already said, there are colonies. Besides, the curse placed upon the Thyatian crops was over five years ago now. I'm sure someone in Thyatis has removed the curse by now (Mordenkainen's Disjunction? Wish?) thus restoring it to the original highly fertile farmland. Of course, failing that, there are the colonies. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #515 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 516 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! [MYSTARA] - Question about shamans Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society Re: [MYSTARA] - Question about shamans Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Language Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise) Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Names that would be Adjectives Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. Re: [MYSTARA] - Me too messages Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:37:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Rob(I think!) said: >>30,000 legionnaries invade Karameikos (a conservative estimate, IMHO). >>Karameikos goes under. Way under. The School of Magecraft is fragged by >>the 25 out of 250 mages who were persuaded to take part. Stefan remains, >>but as a puppet ruler (all his ministers would be Thyatians, of course). >>Bit of support to Alfric Oderbry, and the CoK becomes the Thyatian Empires >>best buddies. Glen Sprigg said: >There are a few things getting in the way of those 30,000 legionnaires. >First of all, there are three displaced Alfheim clans sitting there, who >will not take kindly to the Thyatians invading their new home. Why? The Thyatians wouldn't be attacking them directly, this is a takeover operation. Once Specularum is taken there's only the old gaurd of Stefan's who might be willing to fight. I don't know why the elves would be so willing to come to Stefan's defence ("Thanks for the goblin infested forest Stefan, we'll be joining our Vyalia brethren now!" :) ) (Btw, what's a quisling?) >Secondly, >the people of Karameikos will not sit back and let the elves do all the >work; we have our own armies, as well as the Order of the Griffon. Don't >think we will sit idly by and allow the Thyatians to retake our homeland. >And that includes both the Thyatians and the Traladarans of Karameikos. >It's our home, and you can't have it. Yes, I rekon a lot of the more youthful Traladara will help defend their new nation. But compared to the Legions of Thyatis, even the mighty order of the griffon would fall soon enough (Knights of the Air anyone?) >Thirdly, the School of Magecraft is run by a very powerful Alphatian wizard. >Master Terari will not be easy to defeat, even by those Thyatian wizards. >He has a lot of friends back in the Alphatian territory, some of whom will >come to his aid. And if the Thyatians get some help from the Glantrians? Not to mention their own wizards? The Thyatians were able to hold of the full Alphatian empire for 4 years during Wrath, the pitiful remnants of Alphatia sending a couple of mages really wont make much of a difference... >Fourthly, there is the Western Defense League. Back when it had Rockhome, the Defense League was quite something, now however... > The Shires and Darokin will send troops to help. Darokin's troops would be of almost no use, if they could even be spared. Remember that a few years ago the Master invaded Darokin, the meteor hit, orcs have invaded, flooding, crop failures (I think). Darokin's forces are weaker than the were in the year 1000. And even back then they were strictly a defencive force. It's stated a couple of times in the Gazeteer that Darokin simply *couldn't* invade anywhere. I would think that this would also apply to sending troops against the Thyatians (maybe not). As for the Shires...ahem, well, OK, since every second innkeeper in the shires is a multiclass F/T/C/W who has spellfire and is the lover of the goddess...wait, no thinking of FR :) Sorry, I hate the Five Shires gaz, so my views are twisted here :) Anyway, I don't think the hin will be of overwhelming help. > Darokin would impose trade sanctions against Thyatis; >don't even think for a second those would be negligible, since Darokin's >influence in the trade markets is more than obvious. Damn straight! Darokin is *the* trading nation. However Thyatis is one too, and it's got much bigger markets, and trade sanctions would seriously hurt Darokin too, especially since Ylaruam is turning it's back on foreigners... >The Shires have a strong navy, as well as a lot of pirates. >Thyatian shipping would be hurt. A fine navy, except when compared to a huge sea-based empires.... >Ierendi would certainly not like to see Thyatian expansion over Brun. Nope, they wouldn't. But they're not a great military force either, except for their war fleet which I doubt they would commit to battle until they were being attacked themselves... >Vestland might also join in, since they are in the process of being admitted >to the League. I'm doubtful of the military value of Vestland, but maybe they would be useful... >Karameikos has a lot of friends, and a lot of resources. A lot of friends who may not be able to do much, and a lot fewer resources than Thyatis can field.... > Thyatis would do >well to ponder that before invading us. Like Stefan did 45 years ago :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:40:35 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! I'd like to welcome our new members to the list. It even looks like we got another woman (hooray!)--our demographics are really skewed toward the male population. As far as OD&D, there are indeed a number of fans here on the list, and also many who play with a sort of OD&D/AD&D hybrid. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:52:11 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Question about shamans I have a question about non-human shamans as presented in the Rules Cyclopedia: Do they cast the same number of spells per day as a cleric of the same level? i.e., is a lev. 1 shaman unable to cast spells? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:08:15 -0500 From: "E Gray" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society - -----Original Message----- From: James Ruhland To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society > Question: If Esterhod is too Artic to grow crops, isn't that even more >true for the Yannivey Islands? And yet Floating Ar was moved to Yanniveys >to ". . .use them to grow crops in the forthcoming years." Perhaps the Yanniveys are warmed by some oceanic current or something? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:34:22 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question about shamans > I have a question about non-human shamans as presented in the Rules > Cyclopedia: > Do they cast the same number of spells per day as a cleric of the same > level? i.e., is a lev. 1 shaman unable to cast spells? > Yes, that seems to be the case. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:45:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Language > > (Btw, what's a quisling?) > Quisling isn't a *what* per se, "Quisling" is one of thouse cases where a person's name (I.E. Orwell/Orwellian, McCarthy/McCarthyism) became an adjectival description of a certain kind of thing ("Orwellian": thought-controlled tyranny, corruption of the English language, etc., "McCarthyism": witchunting, outragious charges, etc.) Quisling was the dude that ran Norway as a puppet state for Hitler/National Socialist Germany during WWII. His name became a biword for traitor scum and 5th collumnism. *"Orwellian" is actually injust, because ol' George *described* these kinds of things ("All Alphatian Spellcasters are Equal, but Some are More Equal than Others") in his books, but he was against them. Oh, I thought of another! "Hobbesan". NO, this doesn't refer to stuffed tigers who come to life to smirk at the antics of small boys. It refers to the philosopher Thomas Hobbes, I.E. a "Hobbesan State of Nature" is one where life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (attourneys at law). Come to think of it, that *does* describe Calvin. . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:36:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang >> (Btw, what's a quisling?) >> >Quisling isn't a *what* per se, "Quisling" is one of thouse cases where a >person's name (I.E. Orwell/Orwellian, McCarthy/McCarthyism) became an >adjectival description of a certain kind of thing ("Orwellian": >thought-controlled tyranny, corruption of the English language, etc., >"McCarthyism": witchunting, outragious charges, etc.) Thanks! (Hmm, need to read up on WWII history!) >Oh, I thought of another! "Hobbesan". NO, this doesn't refer to stuffed >tigers who come to life to smirk at the antics of small boys. It refers to >the philosopher Thomas Hobbes, I.E. a "Hobbesan State of Nature" is one >where life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (attourneys at >law). > Come to think of it, that *does* describe Calvin. . . . LOL :) (love those lawyers...) So what people in Mystara would be adjecitvised? Halzunthramism? Sending in someone to use subterfuge to take over an enemy? Thincoliam? Rising from nowhere to take huge amounts of power? Zandorian politics - Completely mad ideas? Ambervillian family - One that's completely mad? Tharian brutes - nasty but organised? any others? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:07:48 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang "He is rather Ericallian in his decisions" -- referring to one who will leap to a conclusion without a clear understanding. "Oh, I think he just has a rather Joshuan tendency in his reporting." -- one who will make things up for sensation. "Jamugan diplomacy" -- doesn't really need any explanation, now does it? Gordon McCormick wrote: > >> (Btw, what's a quisling?) > >> > >Quisling isn't a *what* per se, "Quisling" is one of thouse cases where a > >person's name (I.E. Orwell/Orwellian, McCarthy/McCarthyism) became an > >adjectival description of a certain kind of thing ("Orwellian": > >thought-controlled tyranny, corruption of the English language, etc., > >"McCarthyism": witchunting, outragious charges, etc.) > > Thanks! (Hmm, need to read up on WWII history!) > > >Oh, I thought of another! "Hobbesan". NO, this doesn't refer to stuffed > >tigers who come to life to smirk at the antics of small boys. It refers to > >the philosopher Thomas Hobbes, I.E. a "Hobbesan State of Nature" is one > >where life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (attourneys at > >law). > > Come to think of it, that *does* describe Calvin. . . . > > LOL :) (love those lawyers...) > > So what people in Mystara would be adjecitvised? > > Halzunthramism? > > Sending in someone to use subterfuge to take over an enemy? > > Thincoliam? > > Rising from nowhere to take huge amounts of power? > > Zandorian politics - Completely mad ideas? > > Ambervillian family - One that's completely mad? > > Tharian brutes - nasty but organised? > > any others? > > gordon > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:13:23 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise) >It is nice to be referred to as a person of some importance, though. For >those who have been following Alexius' quest, would his game statistics be >welcome? I could post them as well, if there was some interest. I can post >either D&D or AD&D, it doesn't matter. > Both please as it`ll save me conversion time <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:54:21 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level >> That is, out of (lets say) 1 000 000 people >> How many are NH >> How many are 1st level >> How many are 2nd level > Finally found the `canon` in HLC. 1 inten become 1st level withonly half of them reaching 2nd etc so there`s only 1 17th level per 1000000. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:50:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Names that would be Adjectives > > So what people in Mystara would be adjecitvised? > Some of the ones you mention are good. Meditorism (creative political thinking to reform society; think of it as a "good" form of Machievelism) would be one. > Halzunthramism? > > Sending in someone to use subterfuge to take over an enemy? > > Thincoliam? > > Rising from nowhere to take huge amounts of power? > > Zandorian politics - Completely mad ideas? > > Ambervillian family - One that's completely mad? > > Tharian brutes - nasty but organised? > > any others? > > gordon > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:55:27 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD Ha Ha Ha HA....like the USA ...um yeah..sure Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 12.42 06/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > > As far as the council being broken, I thought it was alive and well in the > >Hollow World, busily building Skyships to dominate both areas? > > My feeling is that Empress Eriadna is no longer interested in conquering > the HW. I don't know if I got this from the PWAs, the Mystaran Almanac or > from private discussion inside the Almanac Team, but I think that Alphatia > is now more interested in exploring the HW and acting as a sort of patron > of the HW, like the USA in real-world. > Maybe this is the effect of the Spell of Preservation, that prevents > Alphatia from destroying other HW cultures. > -------------- > Fabrizio Paoli > brizio@lunet.it > Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 > -------------- > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:51:44 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic Flossy says 'and the gold box actually differenciated between Immortals' > SteelAngel wrote: > > > On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Daly wrote: > > > > > But Immortals of time CAN cast Purify Food and Water. They just find it a bit more > > > difficult. > > > > That is such bunk ;) > > An Immortal is "all-powerful" ergo, Bob the Immortal should be able to > > flex his brain and blow up a planet, or purify a glass of milk, > > irregardless of sphere. > > You are now assuming that Immortals are "all-powerful". They are not. They have never > been described as such. > > > > > > > > Okay. But you are assuming the 4th dimension=time. The Gold Box states quite > > > clearly that their assumption is that the 4th dimension does not=time. End of > > > dilemma. > > > > Dangit. Need to re-read the box. > > Either way, 4 spatial dimensions is not mathematically possible. > > I disagree. And I think the intro in the Immortals set explains it quite well. Of > course there is a 4th dimension. Otherwise, programmers could not write 4-dimensional > arrays... > > > Read any > > book on Relativity. > > No thanks. > > > > > > > > Not at all. I think the dimensions and spheres and spell system, are what make the > > > gold box elegant in design and flawless in detail. > > > > I think we can agree to disagree here :) > > No! We can't! You MUST agree with me! I insist! > > > > > > > Max IV > > > > *************************************************************************** > > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:18:06 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad << I think that it is much better than any other places they could attack. Also, why attack Ierendi? I think that a surgical strike, en mass, against the Guilds would put much of the wealth of the islands in the hands of the Thyatans. There is not other location as profitable as the guilds. Anditionally, I think that the reasons given in Operation Hydra are plausable. >> I know that many Thyatis fans are annoyed about the bad fate of the Empire in the last years, but I really don't see how the legions of Thyatis could conquer the islands. The TSR authors had stated explicitely that the Ierendian navy is the best of the world, and the Minrothadder navy is not so experienced in battles but have some strategic advantages from their waters. When MG captains, knowing the waters well, are circling around Thyatian dromons in the mists, the losses will be terribly high. The Ierendian navy with the fireships from Honour Island (of Alphatian origin) and mermen with dolphins is likewise devastating. Please don't misunderstand me: Minrothad is not interested in wars, and Ierendi doesn't want to scare the tourists. Additionally both navies are far to small to endanger Thyatis in its own waters, but defending they are big enough. Worse, that there's nothing to conquer! The islands of the Minrothad Guilds have no natural resources, only hard working people, and to conquer a holiday resort wouldn't be of any good for the Empire. So, please forget this idea. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:29:19 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad In a message dated 98-07-17 02:23:09 EDT, you write: << > Why Ierendi? > Ierendi comes in as an afterthought. They are a threat to Thyatis and its > occupation of MG. Added to that, MG forces (mostly navy) and officials flee to > Ierendi. Bolstered by the success in MG Thyatis attacks. It wins but the cost > is high as Ierendi becomes a meatgrinder. > IMO Ierendi could not/would not become a "meatgrinder". Ierendi would either win a decisive naval victory, or it would loose utterly. Ierendi is, in terms of a "long war" even worse off than Minrothad: their economy is dependant upon tourism (which would be disrupted in a "meatgrinder"/attrition situation), they are outnumbered roughly 46:1 by Thyatis, and almost all their population is in one locale (Ierendi Island itself, with much in Ierendi City; the other islands are comparitively depopulated). Thyatis could use it's Air Ships, thus avoiding a sea battle all together, occupying Ierendi city and resupplying/supporting by air if needed. Honor Island mages would be the most significant threat, but if left alone, they'll leave folks alone (they agreed to help Ierendi, providing Fire Ships to Ierendi's fleet, for this very reason, but otherwise are indifferent at best to Ierendi's fate, and if presented with a fait accompi: occupation of Ierendi, but "hands off" Honor Island, they'll go back to their reasurches, like good "Ivory Tower" academics). Ierendi cannot win, or even engage in, a protracted ("meatgrinder") war against Thyatis. However, *if* their navy can secure a decisive victory, then they'd secure their freedom. But Thyatis wouldn't need to even engage their navy; a surprise, aerial assault on Ierendi City (Pearl Harbor style), catching Ierendi's fleet in port, would do the trick. And, unlike America, Ierendi City is Ierendi, in a way that Pearl Harbor was not America. Once occupied (which Thyatis can do by air, but the Japanese could not at Honolulu), any chance of recovery would be forfit.>> okay let me go into a bit more detail. the meatgrinder aspect is more of a result of mishandling of the ierendi offensive than actual resistance. the exception being the wizards of honor island who do take a heavy toll on the invaders. the thyatians take the ierendi capital but the war does not end (napoleon in moscow). the defenders pull back with "free minrothad forces" and several "foriegn volunteer forces". the thyatians must take every island to negate the resistance and prevent the islands from being used as bases. ierendi serves another purpose. it will be the end of thyatian expansion for the moment. i really do not want thyatis to get overextended and become suspect to counterattack. in a way i am trying to build up a stalemate scenario between thyatis and the kw nations. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:52:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad > > So, please forget this idea. > This is wise advice. Not because I think Thyatis couldn't "win" (airships can avoid the Island's naval forces), but because (as I've said in other messages) these ideas aren't going anywhere. There just isn't a "constituency" (outside a few rabid Thyatis fans, such as myself) for such schemes. No one wants to see nations of the "Known World" conquered. I think some of us (myself included) have had fun musing about how it could occur and the possible benifits, but it aint gonna happen. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:58:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > ierendi serves another purpose. it will be the end of thyatian expansion for > the moment. i really do not want thyatis to get overextended and become > suspect to counterattack. in a way i am trying to build up a stalemate > scenario between thyatis and the kw nations. > Ok, plot device, then. that's fine. 8-) IMO, I just want to recover, have some victories to make up for the defeats, and then be left alone. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:07:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. > There just isn't a "constituency" (outside a few rabid Thyatis fans, such > as myself) for such schemes. No one wants to see nations of the "Known > World" conquered. > I think some of us (myself included) have had fun musing about how it > could occur and the possible benifits, but it aint gonna happen. 8-) > With all that said, a couple *small* points, buried in a lot of verbiage, might have gotten lost: 1) Thyatis could work diplomatically to improve relations with Minrothad, thus gaining a firm ally (one that could be tied to Thyatis through trade, Thyatis being the biggest available market). 2) Stefan can't ignore his Thyatian population, or his homeland, forever. Even if he is collaborationist scum. He could be "encouraged" to stop his trecherous flirtations with NACE/Alphatia, and return to an alliance with his homeland. 3) The Twaelar thing: already that has encouraged Thyatis to "reach out" to Ierendi. Close cooperation could help end the bad feelings over old animosities, and create stronger, friendlier ties. Plus, like Minrothad, Thyatis (being the most highly populated realm) is a good friend for Ierendi: ok, so the Thyatians are somewhat "down" now, but if/when they recover, they would form the largest potential source of tourists. So a good deal for both nations. As I said at the end of one of my screeds, you *don't* have to conquer everyone outright. Good friends and allies make a nation stronger, too. Also, I *do* hope that some folks will consider ideas for an "internal" recovery (economic or social reform, a return to prominince of elective senators/republicanism, etc.) which could make Thyatis a more "lovable" place in general (something conquering your neighbors will never do, unless you're the NACE). And I still point out that it would be possible to aquire land elsewhere, preserving the "Imperial" status of Thyatis by recovering Ochalea & Pearl Islands, re-absorbing Westrourke & Helskir, and expanding into Davinia. This would represent a *real* recovery, returning the Empire to it's 1000 AC borders PLUS Dunadale, Aegos, and new areas in Davinia. It's nothing to scoff at. The Davinia thing could be quite an adventure, too; Thyatis might find out more about it's own origins. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:29:44 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Me too messages >I'm neither Leroy, nor Jenni so don't flame me for writing this :-) Oh, you mean if Leroy or Jenni write messages like this, we can flame *them*? :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:28:54 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >Minrothad's greaest naval advantage may be the close relationship amongst >the Meditor, Verdier, and Aquarendi. The Aquarendi, in turn, are closely >allied with the Merrow of the Sunlit Sea and the Tritons of Undersea, so the >Thyatians could face a massive assault from beneath that they were never >expecting. I doubt that the Thyatians would have as easy a time as you are >suggesting. > Undersea is actually hostile to Minrothad, they are more allies of Ierendi. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #516 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 517 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad [MYSTARA] - Quisling Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:24:33 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 00.53 17/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > >Well, Karameikos is ringed by mountains with only a very limited number of >passes (and, indeed, ability to move large bodies of troops by any means, >other than the sea). A few elite units could hold the few passes for a long >time, certainly long enough for Thyatis to have the rest of the country >under the thumb. >Usual military tactic - cut the enemy off from his allies, cut off his >support, and move in in massive strength. Unfortunately most of those passes are far from the Thyatian/Karameikan border and it won't be easy to get elite units there. >Besides, who else is in the WDL? Darokin? Darokin cares about CASH >(something which a lot of people here seem to have forgotten). Seems that >Darokins most lucrative sources of cash are - > the sea (Minrothad territory) > Glantri (odd trinkets, books and stuff) > Thyatis (everything else - a place with such a huge population means >huge potential markets) True, Darokin sells Thyatis a huge amount of grain, but Karameikos is also a primary market for Darokinians. >As for the elves - well, the Vyalia elves are, if anything, pro Thyatian >(They have got a Thyatian dominion, affter all - not a Karameikan one). IMO Thyatian Vyalia elves are very different from Karameikan ones. I don't think they would like to be ruled by Thyatian, otherwise they would have moved to the other side of the border. Vyalia elves are, IMO, a reclusive race, that doesn't like to be under the strict rule of someone else... and Eusebius is certainly a more strict ruler than Stefan. > The >Alfheimers could easily become pro Thyatian (if Thyatis offered support in >the elven quest to retake Aengmor). Elves arent particularly honourable >(good, but Chaotic good). Ok. But would they risk losing a second homeland without fighting as they did with the first one? Thyatians are not renowned for keeping their word... > Lets face it - if the Karameikan School of Magecraft (basically, >Zeroville) can field mages, Thyatis (Collegium Arcanum, DM?) should be able >to field substantially more... A nation like Thyatis must (and does) have >military mages, whose job is to fight in wars. Agreed. But what about (sorry James :) NACE, they're allied with Karameikos, so they'll certianly send magical help, or at least attack Thyatis on the other side (Isle of Dawn). > > As for extended guerrilla warfare... That requires dedication. I >reckon only a few Karameikans would actually be ready for that. Very few >Thyatians would join any "Heroic Resistance" - 99% would do nothing. And >the Traladarans would start killing each other (hey - thats how Thyatis >conquered the place originally!) > Ok. >The Five Shires??? Even checking out PWA armies, these little guys are not >a problem. If you say so... :-) > >Well, yeah, Minrothad would be a lot easier. > >I know full well that it would be a risky thing to do. But better Thyatis >does something, rather than the nothing it has done for the last 5 years. I like Thyatis (well, not as Aengmor, Atruaghin, Sind and Ethengar, but I like it) but I don't understand this "they've to conquer something soon" attitude. They luckily survived during WotI, losing just a few islands an conquering more ground in the Isle of Dawn. Their greatest opponent (Alphatia) is gone, Heldann has internal problema, they've a young new Emperor. IMO they should be more than happy, now they just need to rebuild and then they'll be able to conquer everything. And if they really want to conquer sonething, then why not push deep into northern Davania instead of attacking established nation. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:20:50 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 22.47 16/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >If NACE can recover instantly, then I see no reason why Thyatis is held to >a higher standard. I think there's a big difference between NACE and Thyatians. During WotI Thyatis had the war on his homeground, enemy troops landed on Thyatian soil and destroyed cities and villages, and now they've to rebuild everything, like Germany after WW2 (Note: I've been in the former DDR in 1991 and I've seen that they still have to rebuild things destroyed during WW2). OTOH, except for some areas on the Isle of Dawn, NACE countries did not have the war at home, they "just" lost the main continent, but they've nothing to rebuild except the government. Moreover Thyatian economy was already crippled before WotI and it hasn't certainly got any better after that. The loss of Alphatia has certainly a heavy impact on NACE economy, but IMO most of those areas (Bellisaria, Norwold, Qheodar, Eastern IoD...) are almost self sufficient and should be able to get back on the way quite quickly. >Similarly, if Glantri, a landlocked nation with no >nautical experience or shipyards can instantly build & crew 20 ships, I see >no reason why Thyatis should be held to a higher standard than that. But we're talking about shyships here, not sea ones. Skyships need not necessarily float on water, and I imagine Glantrian skyships very different in shape from sea ships (like the d20 of Azlum (sp?) Swift in CoM.) Skyships need not be watertight or airtight (unless you want to have a pressurized fuselage), and water loads are much higher than air loads (please stop me before I start telling you about aircraft design :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:30:19 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad At 01.45 17/07/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >Minrothad Military >IMO the Thadder security is a red herring. Their defensive forces are small Maybe they should lay mines all around the isles :-) >Foreign Repurcussions >IMO Minrothad will not get any real allies. Mirothad traders all renowned all over Mystara. Maybe they won't be able to get many allies in a short time, but they'll certainly reclaim the islands soon with the help of adventurers from all over Mystara. >NACE will not interfere as they have no need. Plus, if they wanted to aid >would see troops having to make a long arduous sail into Thyatian waters and >near Thyatian ports. What if NACE attacks Thyatis on the Isle of Dawn and Aegos while Thyatians are busy attacking Minrothad? Would they be able to stop the Alphatians? Anyway, if it's so easy to conquer Minrothad, why haven't they done this in the past? BTW: I'm glad to see you can write capital letters again :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:25:26 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:50:21 -0700 "Patrick Sullivan" writes: >It's been years since I DMed an Undersea group, so I've never read >your >timeline and I haven't read PC2 in a while. But I remember very >clearly >that the Aquarendi are allied with the elves of Minrothad. Where is a >canon >reference otherwise? Okay, checking PC3 I discovered that the Aquarendi are friendly with the elves of Minrothad, however they do not have any real military power. On the other hand Undersea: The Sea Peoples Book p. 54: "The emissaries of the Minrothad Guilds send dire warnings that if the attacks by the kna do not stop they will take matters into their own hands...We will not tolerate these threats!"" The Adventure Book p. 1: "If it [Minrothad reprisals] occurs, Undersea will...take up arms against the surface dwellers." Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:09:06 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > Agreed. But what about (sorry James :) NACE, they're allied with > Karameikos, > Stefan being the Quisling Traitor Scum Collaborationist that he is, allied to folks who have killed almost as many people of his native land as live in his current kingdom, this is true. > so they'll certianly send magical help, or at least attack > Thyatis on the other side (Isle of Dawn). > Remember, NACE is not Alphatia. It doesn't have the magical resources of Alphatia, or the military ones, and it has it's own problems. What with all it's tried to accomplish lately, it's resources are spread much thinner than Thyatis', IMO. > > I like Thyatis (well, not as Aengmor, Atruaghin, Sind and Ethengar, but I > like it) but I don't understand this "they've to conquer something soon" > attitude. > I agree. Except for the IMO imperitive to get back "lost" stuff, I'm actually agnostic about other "conquests". They need a victory for "prestege" reasons, and to give Thyatis fans something to "cheer about" after all this heaping of ingnominy on them (everyone else, NACE included and especially, has had a *lot* to cheer about in the PWAs & NAs. But not Thyatis, not since PWA 1010, and most of that was overturned in PWA II & III, with a bunch of ignominy and mass death). Some kind of success is good for morale. Especially after the big dung sandwitch that Thyatis (and fans of Thyatis) have had to eat almost every year since WotI. > They luckily survived during WotI, losing just a few islands an conquering > more ground in the Isle of Dawn. Their greatest opponent (Alphatia) is > gone, Heldann has internal problema, they've a young new Emperor. IMO they > should be more than happy, now they just need to rebuild and then they'll > be able to conquer everything. > Mass death (weapons of mass distruction), riots, further disintigration of the realm, once "friendly" persons becoming Traitor-scum Quislings that forment alliances against their own homeland. . .yep, a lot to be happy about. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:56 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > What if NACE attacks Thyatis on the Isle of Dawn and Aegos while Thyatians > are busy attacking Minrothad? Would they be able to stop the Alphatians? > They aren't fighting Alphatia, they're fighting NACE. As I said in the previous screed, NACE is not Alphatia. NACE has it's forces tied down all over the place (in Esterhold, keeping the locals "happy" with continued NACE domination, on Monster Island, making sure their new capital is safe, etc). > Anyway, if it's so easy to conquer Minrothad, why haven't they done this in > the past? > Haven't needed to. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:18:18 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > OTOH, except for some areas on the Isle of Dawn, NACE countries did not > have the war at home, they "just" lost the main continent, but they've > nothing to rebuild except the government. > The main continent was "just" the focal point of all trade, culture, and administration (as well as war-making capacity). All the former trade & administrative arrangements had to/have to be rebuilt from the ground up, and trouble spots (such as Esterhold & their wonderful new capital) must recieve support not from huge MetroAlph, but from thinly settled, agrarian, largely unurbanized colonies. The Thyatian mainland didn't suffer years of war, if you recall, but rather months. Dislocating, but hardly devistating in the long term, in and of itself. > heavy impact on NACE economy, but IMO most of those areas (Bellisaria, > Norwold, Qheodar, Eastern IoD...) are almost self sufficient and should be > able to get back on the way quite quickly. > Just another way to Script "Everything is wonderful for NACE, everything sucks for Thyatis". As I said before, with sufficient willpower and creativity, *anything* can be scripted (Esterhold & Glantri are symbolic of that). What you are actually saying is that you don't think Thyatis should be allowed to recover. So just say it. > > But we're talking about shyships here, not sea ones. Skyships need not > necessarily float on water, and I imagine Glantrian skyships very different > They had no experience with skyships, either, and (as I said) no shipyards or shipwrights skilled in constructing even ships of "very different" shape. Point is, again, there was the willpower and creativity to script into the plot such a thing for Glantri, irregardless. And then arguments can be made in support of why it was (or wasn't) "resonable" retroactively (I.E. Democratic Esterhold) to fit the desired outcome. I just think Thyatis is being held to a different, and more strict, standard of "realism" under these conditions. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:16 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << ROB (Hey - the Khan agreed with me? Have I been smoking dubious weed again?) >> I should have agreed with you? I would say your assumption was right! :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:23 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? << IMO, the Traldarans make a good grouping with the other "Thyatians" (Kerendans, Thyatians themselves. Though noitably *not* the Hattians). Traldara has always seemed to me (along with Minrothad) a natural appendage/addition to Thyatis. >> Traladarans are no Thyatians, and I cannot understand your opinion. The Minrothaddans are definitely neither an appendage nor a addition for Thyatis, and the Empire only conquered Traladara in the first place because Thyatis City had got rumours about an increasing engagement through Darokinian merchant lords. When they had conquered it, they even didn't know what to do with it, and until Duke Stefan became the ruler nothing had changed. What Thyatis could do is to strength their grip on their provinces on the Isle of Dawn but the old and established nations of Brun would look with fear on the Empire once it would start conquering them. Perhaps they would try to join the Alphatian Empire. Such strange events occur... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:21 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? << Considering that Stefan is a Quisling that has sold out his (and their) native land to his people's greatest foes (foes that, one must remember, have killed almost as many of their people as live in Traldara itself in recient years), and become a collaborator of the worst order, IMO they would likely side with their native land (Thyatis), not with Quislingboy. >> Come on boy, this Quisling babble is becoming annoying more and more. You should really stop it. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:25 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad << But Thyatis wouldn't need to even engage their navy; a surprise, aerial assault on Ierendi City (Pearl Harbor style), catching Ierendi's fleet in port, would do the trick. And, unlike America, Ierendi City is Ierendi, in a way that Pearl Harbor was not America. Once occupied (which Thyatis can do by air, but the Japanese could not at Honolulu), any chance of recovery would be forfit. >> These days I could read in a mail that Thyatis was the defender of Brun against Alphatia. The current discussion shows that this was valid vice versa... :-( Jamuga Khan "May the High Traitorous Empire of Thyatis crumble to dust." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:24 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad << Why Minrothad? Minrothad is a rich nation. It is also a small nation. Minrothad is also strategically placed between Brun and the Hinterlands. And who would think Thyatis would assault Minrothad. Thyatis does have cause. Minrothad bluffed them on Aegos. And the Guilds were neutral during Wrath. By not siding with Thyatis the Thadders actually aided Alphatia. Minrothad is a trade competitor to Thyatis. >> I thought this would be an absurd idea when I've read it first, and I am still thinking this. Besides you seem to have forgotten that the Minrothaddans have the advantage that their waters are foggy and spicked with dangerous currents. I really don't believe that Thyatis could land it's army to battle the MGs on their own islands. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:26 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Quisling << Quisling was the dude that ran Norway as a puppet state for Hitler/National Socialist Germany during WWII. His name became a biword for traitor scum and 5th collumnism. >> Was he? Or did he a difficult job with no promise of gratefulness? The German Wehrmacht was overwhelming against the weaker neighbours in the beginning of the WWII, and there was nothing the Norwegians could do against. BTW, to become a reference to Mystara! Thyatis starting to conquer Brun would be overwhelming but probably they would be crushed by an alliance of Hule and Alphatia then. Of course, after this victory Hule and Alphatia would start a new and bitter Cold War. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:43:27 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang << "Jamugan diplomacy" -- doesn't really need any explanation, now does it? >> Fine! So I have now a place in Mystara! If I only knew what khanate were mine... :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:58:18 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > > These days I could read in a mail that Thyatis was the defender > of Brun against Alphatia. > And what thanks did they get? Old "friends" formenting hostile alliances against them (WDF), and becoming fast friends with the folk that killed off a significant portion of their people. > The current discussion shows that > this was valid vice versa... :-( > Of course, coming from one of the foremost Alphatiaphiles, this has to be taken with a grain of salt. And, in addition, before another passive-aggressive reply is made, you should remember that it was and is I who am counciling not to conquer these places outright, but to work to make them friends and allies of Thyatis. (btw, a day ago the "Khan" made a resonable request that I answer a certain question regarding what gave me the impression that in some circles Thyatis is considered "NACE bait." Lest anyone thing I rudely ignored his question, it was answered via private mail to him directly. If anyone is interested in recieving a copy of that message, they can mail me directly to request one: jruhlconob@sprynet.com I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that I ignored a perfectly honest question. I gave him a perfectly honest response based on my impressions of developments, but didn't feel the need to clutter the list with it.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:17:46 EDT From: JuggyNot@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad mystara-l remove *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:21:16 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis >BTW, to become a reference to Mystara! Thyatis >starting to conquer Brun would be overwhelming >but probably they would be crushed by an alliance >of Hule and Alphatia then. Hule still needs to get Darokin before they can get to Thyatis. But, IMO, that shouldn't be too far off. Remember also that Atzanteotl is currently indebted to Loki, so Oenkmar and the Tiger Clan will contribute to the fall of Darokin. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:03 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >I like Thyatis (well, not as Aengmor, Atruaghin, Sind and Ethengar, but I >like it) but I don't understand this "they've to conquer something soon" >attitude. Lol. Its summed up on the Orcs of Thar Map - where Thyatis is labelled as "Crazed Imperialists"... >They luckily survived during WotI, losing just a few islands an conquering >more ground in the Isle of Dawn. Their greatest opponent (Alphatia) is >gone, Heldann has internal problema, they've a young new Emperor. IMO they >should be more than happy, now they just need to rebuild and then they'll >be able to conquer everything. > >And if they really want to conquer sonething, then why not push deep into >northern Davania instead of attacking established nation. Well - other nations have been conquering, forming alliances, bluffing superior Thyatian forces and so on. Thyatis has done nothing, pretty well. I mean, what is Eusebius doing? Seems to me he has done precisely jack in his five odd years of rulership. Assuming he has spent 5 years fixing up infrastructure and generally getting the Empire back on its feet, Thyatis should now be better off than other nations - like the NACE, currently wrestling with a somewhat unstable loose confederation and engaged in brushfire wars. It said in WotI that Thyatis would be beggared because of its attempt to exploit the power vacuum left behind after Alphatias demise. But the NACE has exploited this power vacuum as well - (they are still exploiting it in Esterhold, effectively)... Cheerz ROB (Its Good to Talk) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:04:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? First, the good news: I *plan* for this to be the last Thyatis-related thread initiated by me for quite some time (*cheers rise up from the audience*). Doesn't mean I won't respond to other people's stuff (*chorus of boos*). Seems some would prefer Thyatis just die, or languish quietly in desolation. My opinion on that should be well known. However, on the other hand, considering recient directions, is their anything left in Thyatis that is "lovable" and worthy of being redeemed. Should Thyatis recover or just pass away? ____________________________ N.B.: at this point folks who dislike long screeds can stop, and just reply based on the above. However, for thouse who wallow in detail, as I do, read on. However, I *do* hope that thouse of you least inclined to read long messages by me would read further. I'm afraid that my strident attitude may have turned some (or many) off, and what follows is both an explanation and an appology of sorts. ____________________________ Time past, with the publication of DotE (which I eagerly awaited), I found much to like in both Alphatia and Thyatis. Yes, as a fan of Byzantium, I favored Thyatis. And yes, as such a person I was somewhat disapointed that Thyatis didn't look much like Byzantium, especially the "good" aspects of it. However, there was much to like, both as a character (IC) and a Player (OOC) about *both* nations, and I liked them both. Some may think I was always a rabid Thyatophile and Alphatiaphobe, but this wasn't the case. Each Empire had it's virtues, and each it's flaws. The virtues made it possible to like, even love, them. The flaws made it fun to adventure in them. Alphatia had it's strong individualism, wide-open possibilities ("you can do anything with enough magic" spirit), and sense of liberty (so long as you weren't a slave or a servator, and most characters are not). Thyatis had citizenship, better laws, better treatment of slaves, a republican component (electorial portion of the Senate), and a "unconquerable" spirt: folks were more loyal to Thyatis because, by and large, it treated the majority of it's people (commoners/Citizens) better than Alphatia (no citizens, and the only protection for slaves was that you'd owe the *owner* if you destroyed his "property"). But Thyatis had corruption, Hattians, infamous treachery (though, oddly, most--even Alphatiaphiles who despise Thyatis--agree that Thincol & Eusibius, oddly enough, are men of their word. Strange. . . .), and a fudal system (ok, some like dukes & counts & barons, but I found this to be a flaw). I particularly liked the adventure skeches. For, as someone reciently put it Alphatia & Thyatis are "two sides of the same coin" (though he didn't mean it in a complimentary way. . . .); IMO, they *did* fit together: though on the surface very different and unalterably opposed, their strengths would complement each other, and their weakenesses/vices ameliorated, if they could only find a way to cooperate. . .admitedly, an unlikely prospect, but Mystara is a world of unlikely prospects. A world of fantasy. So the adventures scripting future cooperation were ones I found ammusing. The Mystara character I'm most attached to is a Thyatian of Alphatian decent. For this reason, also, I enjoyed M5, "Island of Night". The idea of "Thyphatia" was so. . .overly optimistic. "Panglossian" to use a word I've used a lot reciently. But endering. Sweet. A "happy" ending in a world of undead. The ultimate of ironys. And a "hope" for the future in that if these attitudes (love and cooperation) could blossom in a nightmarish world, then they were *possible* in the "real" world of Mystara. But, alas, they were not to be. WotI was published, and a new outcome ordained. WotI also saw the begining of my attitudes starting to harden, against Alphatia, as I held on tight to Thyatis. A strange reaction? Perhaps. After all, many people want to go with a winner. Somehow, a "lost cause" always attracts me more (but, then, I'm a Packer fan. . . .) And it seemed to me that things were being scripted strangely. That a discordant tone was being struck. Disapearing were the "good" things about Thyatis, it's virtues were being scripted away. It started with the disloyalty, after 1,000 years, of Ochalea & the Pearl Islands, abandoning Thyatis in it's time of need without any real "reason" behind it (yes, yes; a big war=an opportunity for "liberty", but their had been inumerable big wars between Thyatis & Alphatia before, without this happening, and from DotE Thyatian Citizenship was successful in tying the loyalties of these lands to Thyatis, and they were relatively content. If anyone would have been likely to experience centrifugal effects, it seems like it should have been Alphatia). In addition, there was Stefan, abandoning his lifelong friend, the one who had given him all he had (Traldara), at his time of greatest need. Folks disagree with me about my take on Stefan. But I'll just note that, regarding Karameikos, anything can be and could be scripted: one could script that the Thyatian imigrants went to Traldara/Karameikos for the oportunity, but still have a warm spot in their heart for their old country, and a dislike for the enemies of that nation, or one could script otherwise. One could script that Stefan wanted his nation to be independant, but was still grateful to, and affectionate for, his old homeland, or one could script that he'd join in cooperation with his people's oldest enemies, ones who *have* killed almost as many of his own (Thyatian) people as live in his current Kingdom, and that he'd join with an alliance hostile to his old home (WDL) and turn his back on his old friend & his friend's son (remember, Thincol named his DAUGHTER after Stefan. They were that close). One doesn't have to change any events to decide that Stefan is not the upstanding & good man that his "press" would indicate: Res Ipsos Loquitor. But different people have different interpretations of what I'd call ungrateful betrayal. Also, people may have different opinions of who was on the "right" side in the WotI war and who was on the "wrong" side. I won't dispute these. I, myself, think that Ixion was "right" (I dislike the "Day of Dread" immensly), but oddly enough I support Thyatis. Go figure. What *is* true is that though Thyatis bore the brunt of the war, it got no thanks, and earned no friends, for it's efforts. Thyatis "stood up for" Glantri in the face of bullying by a stronger nation (Alphatia). This is all that the *people* of Mystara know. They don't know about the manipulations (to use a Traveller/Hiver term) of the immortals. They took a beating, and were left to suffer alone, unloved, for their efforts. Even by the people who they helped (Glantri). Should greatful thanks be extended? Not nessisarily. But organizing hostile alliances, and kicking a country when it's down (remember, it was Alphatia that invaded Ylaruam during the WotI war, not Thyatis) seemed injust. Then came PWA 1010, and though it ended on a sour note (the first appearance of the Thothian "special forces"), it gave Thyatis fans something to cheer about. But that was the last time. Since then, it's only been ashes and ignominy. Scorn and death. And, remember what I started this lengthy message about: In the begining, in DotE, both Empires had things you could like about them, and both had their flaws. This changed, and when it did it changed abruptly, with the force of a hurricane. All the "virtues" began to be imputed to one side, all the "vices" to the other. Still, I stuck with a lost cause. Though each of the PWAs & JA left me almost in tears (and sometimes actually in tears) with each installment heaping further abuse on the nation I had adopted. Note that the Net Almanac team is not to blame for this: they are only continuing where TSR left off. They've done nothing to rectify this imbalance, but their "job", the one they've *vollenteered* to take on, and spent their own time and dedicated effort to, is to keep the spirit of Mystara alive. So one really can't criticize their efforts. Where was I? Oh. Gone was any sense that Thyatis had anything like Citizenship. Gone was any sense that there was any loyalty to Thyatis based on such a concept. Gone was any sense that there was a republican/electorial component to the Thyatian government. Gone was any sense that slaves might be better treated in Thyatis than in Alphatia. Only Thyatis' problems and vices were highlited. I became (and obviously remain), bitter over this discrepancy. Instead, all the "virtues" went to Alphatia, while Alphatian "vices" were diminished if not ignored. Though the Emperor was a Freedman (Thincol), and the Emperor's successor/the Emperor is the son of a Freedman (Eusebius), it was in Alphatia where the first large-scale freeing of slaves occured (in Esterhold, in Joshuan's Almanac. Again, not the fault of the Net Almanac staff that TSR scripted it that way. This all predates them). The imbalance continues. Alphatia (NACE) is getting a democratic/republican component of it's government (election politics in Esterhold), Alphatian commoners are refered to as "Citizens" (again, this started in Joshuan's Almanac, if not before, and thus it is not the fault of the Net Almanac team in any way that this anachronism exists), while one gets the impression that Thyatian people's are all under a boot-heeled oppressive tyrrany. All the "virtues" have been scripted over to one side, leaving all the "vices" to the other. No WONDER lots of people prefer Alphatia to Thyatis. Can I really blame them? Thyatis is as it has been scripted: a land of disaster, famine, plague, oppressive government, slave uprisings, disintigration, disloyalty (Westrourke et al), purges (by Eusibis), urban fires, etc. And, again, there is no reason to blame the Net Almanac team for all this, since it was "canon" in the PWAs & Joshuan's Almanac. I sent in the other day a request. No, a plea. To some members of the Net Almanac team. The plea was that "Thyatian distinctiveness be preserved". That the imbalance be rectified. That Thyatis get back some of the "good" things about it, and be allowed some "good news" to be scripted into Net Almanac 1015 to make up for the disasters. I've been pressing, and pressing *HARD*. Perhaps too hard. And certainly to stridently, that something be done to rectify these "imbalances". That some attention be paid to Alphatian "vices" (the *lack* of Citizenship, and the generally indifferent attitude towards the welfare of slaves, for example, and the lack of love that the "common folk" would thus have for NACE/Alphatia as a result. I.E. the "Esterhold screeds"), and that some recovery be allowed for Thyatis, as well as re-emphasising the "good" things about Thyatis (a lot of attention has already been paid to the "vices"). Barring that, I can see why Thyatis is unloved in certain circles. If the way you look at Thyatis is shaped not by the DotE description, but largely by WotI & the PWA/JA/NAs, then there is no *reason* to love Thyatis. No *reason* to desire to see her recover. Wanting her dead is a logical reaction. Thus the question I started this interminably long screed with. Should Thyatis be saved at all? Or should it be blown away, to pass into history, it's colony's going to NACE or going free, and the mainland (what's left of it after, say, a devistating Civil War) going to Ylaruam, Karameikos, and an independant Hattias (for example)? It's a real question. You all know what *I'll* hope the answer will be (spiritual & territorial recovery, and a return to prominence of the distinctive 'good' qualities of Thyatis as portrayed in DotE, along with some evolution towards a better future). But I've already pressed my case vocally, stridently, and obnoxiously enough. If I've offended anyone by doing so, then I appologize sincerely. I'm passionate about this, and about Thyatis, but that's no excuse for rudeness. And, in any case, the answer to my question isn't up to me. It's in your (collective) hands. I thank you for your time and attention to this long message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #517 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 518 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Direction & goals Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian 'Protectorates' [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:10:39 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >>If NACE can recover instantly, then I see no reason why Thyatis is held to >>a higher standard. > >I think there's a big difference between NACE and Thyatians. >During WotI Thyatis had the war on his homeground, enemy troops landed on >Thyatian soil and destroyed cities and villages, and now they've to rebuild >everything, like Germany after WW2 (Note: I've been in the former DDR in >1991 and I've seen that they still have to rebuild things destroyed during >WW2). Well, medieval wars don't generally damage a nations infrastructure like modern weapons do. Thats one of the reasons why WW1 was such a shock to everyone. Even counting mages, I dont think the Alphatians were carpet bombing Thyatis City. >OTOH, except for some areas on the Isle of Dawn, NACE countries did not >have the war at home, they "just" lost the main continent, but they've >nothing to rebuild except the government. Well, they've lost 2/3 of their population. As a nuclear war is projected only to kill 1/3 to 1/2, I think thats a large scale disaster. >Moreover Thyatian economy was already crippled before WotI and it hasn't >certainly got any better after that. The loss of Alphatia has certainly a >heavy impact on NACE economy, but IMO most of those areas (Bellisaria, >Norwold, Qheodar, Eastern IoD...) are almost self sufficient and should be >able to get back on the way quite quickly. The Thyatian economy may have suffered, but 2/3 of the Alphatian economy is now in the HW.... Probably all the juicy stuff would have been on mainland Alphatia anyway. As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much of an economy... Cheerz ROB (I'm trying to prove James Ruhland wrong. Someone agree with me, if only to shut him up :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:13:15 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? - ----- >sucks for Thyatis". As I said before, with sufficient willpower and >creativity, *anything* can be scripted (Esterhold & Glantri are symbolic of >that). Hey James - are you dissing my beluvved Glantri here??? :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:38:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > Probably all the juicy stuff would have been on mainland Alphatia anyway. > As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk > into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic > enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much of > an economy... > Gah! *shocked that you would even mention such a thing*. IMO, the colonial possessions of both Empires are about as "valuable" as the colonial possessions of 19th & 20th century nations. Ultimately, they were more a matter of "prestege", and once you factored in the cost of aquiring, maintaining, and garrisoning them, they neither added nor detracted from the actual strength (or weakness) of the "metropolitan" imperial power. Just an opinion. > > ROB (I'm trying to prove James Ruhland wrong. Someone agree with me, if > only to shut him up :) > Trying to prove me wrong? Am I that hated and dispised? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:45:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Direction & goals > > Hey James - are you dissing my beluvved Glantri here??? > I'm not "dissing" Glantri. I have no real problems with the "plotline" for Glantri. I'm just saying that whatever the "script writers"/"game designers" decide can/should happen can be scripted into the Timeline/"plot". It's been done with other nations (I.E. the examples I gave). I've given up on my "practical"/"realism" based arguments against them (as has been demonstrated in these threads, *anything* can be argued, especially with respect to a fantasy world, and you can't say anyone is really "wrong" in their belief, ultimately.) Thus, it comes down to what "direction" thouse "in charge" of deciding such things want to take the world as a whole (my previous screeds not withstanding. Ok, I can admit when I was wrong. I still say that my arguments had merits, on the various things that were argued. But what I'm saying is that the *counter-arguments* against my possitions *also* had merits, and what it ultimately comes down to is what the "game designers" decide is appropriate, given the "plotline" they have in mind). Still, though, if the mailing list isn't a forum for arguing out these things (some have suggested that folks who hold opinions differing from their own ought to be silent), then I dk what it is for at all. All this back and forth might (one hopes) give some DMs (or players) good ideas to use in their own campaigns. It's certainly enriched *my* thinking, getting ideas not only from folks who "agree" with my precepts/ideas, but getting them from folks who *don't*, too. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:26:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. > 2) Stefan can't ignore his Thyatian population, or his homeland, forever. >Even if he is collaborationist scum. He could be "encouraged" to stop his >trecherous flirtations with NACE/Alphatia, and return to an alliance with >his homeland. I don't plan on starting a way-off-topic thread with this, but I will say that patriotism and collaboration can be opposite sides of the same coin. Benedict Arnold was a collaborator for the British and is still reviled today by the Americans. But to the British, he was a patriot, as much so as Washington and his buddies were traitors. Remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. And the Thyatian population of Karameikos haven't said much of anything about King Stefan's decisions during the war. So that theory doesn't have much support. No one is going to 'encourage' our King to do anything; we have the Thyatian ambassador under close observation. Glen Sprigg Sir Alexius Dannelaran Knight of the Griffon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:40:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad >> These days I could read in a mail that Thyatis was the defender >> of Brun against Alphatia. >> >And what thanks did they get? Old "friends" formenting hostile alliances >against them (WDF), and becoming fast friends with the folk that killed off >a significant portion of their people. > The Western Defense League was not formed as a hostile anti-Thyatian alliance. It was formed for defensive purposes. While Alphatia still existed, Thyatis was far too concerned with them to pose much of a threat to the nations of Brun. Now that Alphatia is gone, the nations of the WDL decided to take steps to ensure that the inevitable Thyatian expansion would not be directed in their direction. Thyatis could overwhelm any one of the WDL nations, which would be considered a bad thing by just about everyone except Thyatis. However, Thyatis will think twice before invading one of those nations when they know that several others will join in defense of that one. The name itself, Western DEFENSE League, should make the purpose of the alliance clear. To claim otherwise is mere Thyatian propaganda. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:01:05 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. > Benedict Arnold was a collaborator for the British and is still reviled > today by the Americans. But to the British, he was a patriot, as much so as > Washington and his buddies were traitors. > If Stefan were of Alphatian decent, you'd have a very strong point, and no one could criticize his ties to his homeland. However, he isn't. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:04:56 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-16 10:23:10 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Certainly a good idea. Other than Davania & the Thangeoth Islands, though, > what uninhabited or lightly inhabited areas relatively close to Thyatis are > there? Those will do for starters, certainly. And Davania has the special appeal of letting Thyatis potentially resettle the homeland of the three tribes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:04 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-16 15:03:28 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > Please explain to us why you are so reluctant to accept > a human (sub-)culture without marriage cermony. I have no problem with the concept -- in fact, Alphatia and the real world Picts seem to come fairly close. But the hurdle to overcome is the importance that males in most human cultures attach to paternity (that is, to "knowing" that certain children are theirs). As long as that factor exists, men will come up with some way to restrict access to "their" women -- and whether that method involves a formal marriage ceremony or not, it would still be something that is recognized within that culture. And there seem to be two ways to overcome this hurdle -- either the women gain enough power that they can oppose the men in limiting their freedom (which seems to be what happened in Alphatia), or the men decide to use a method of succession other than father to son (which seems to be what the Picts did -- they realized that they could be sure that they were related to their sister's son, while they could not be so sure about the son of the woman that they shared a bed with). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-16 16:16:59 EDT, n9646788@cc.wwu.edu writes: > I think that the Thyatan empire needs a victory right now. Also, they are > not all that threatened by NACE although, they probably could not advance > too far in that direction. Do they need a military victory that badly? After all, Eusebius is in little danger of being overthrown -- although an unsuccessful attempt to overthrow him would be a "victory" of sorts for Eusebius. I suspect that Moglai Khan is in more danger along those lines -- or is he already dead according to the net Almanacs? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:04:59 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) In a message dated 98-07-16 07:06:07 EDT, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > So why wouldn't he continue to unite his people after the Master goes? This > started when you said that Hule would experience chaos when the Master left. If he is destroyed, then chaos should result. If he achieves Immortality, then he could do one of two things: 1) Continue to hold Hule together -- in which case Hule becomes even stronger than ever. 2) Encourage the collapse of Hule -- in which case Hule does indeed fall into chaos. Why would the Master do something so strange? Remember that he serves Chaos and Entropy, so he might decide that Hule has become too orderly for his purposes. Or he may decide that he can spread his followers all over the world faster as refugees than as conquerors - -- and the refugeees would get a marginally better reception than the conquerors would. Furthermore, it would be harder for his foes to outlaw a refugee cult than an enemy cult. The more I think about it, the more I think that the Master would have good reason to cause Hule to collapse a generation or two after he achieves Immortality. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:14 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-16 20:08:58 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: > I know full well that it would be a risky thing to do. But better Thyatis > does something, rather than the nothing it has done for the last 5 years. Where do you get the idea that Thyatis has done nothing for the past five years? In the first three PWAs, at least, they seemed to be constantly involved in fighting with the remnants of the Alphatian Empire. Granted those wars did not benefit Thyatis much, but they were trying to conquer territory. That is why I suggested that now might be the time to try to gain power by less direct means. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-16 15:51:19 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > I don't think that conquering the both island realms would be > worth the work or acceptable by Mystaran fans. I would agree -- Thyatis has been involved in enough wars of conquest over the past few years. How about the idea where Thyatis offers to "protect" various nations from their enemies -- the result is that they are able to move their troops in without effective resistance. The wars, if any, would involve the Thyatians either helping defend their allies (their stated purpose for being there) or (many years later) putting down an insurrection by their former allies. Either way, they avoid the cost and risk of an invasion -- they basically just have to hold their positions against the enemy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:04:57 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation In a message dated 98-07-16 12:17:40 EDT, mdalmonte@provincia.ra.it writes: > Now, I think > that even if the other Immortals would have liked to help Thincol to get > his support and worship, they couldn't simply come down and smash the item, > nor dispel the effect, probably because this would count as "direct > intervention" and also because the item could have now become a (cursed) > artifact, much more difficult to destroy. That's why Thincol didn't dodge > his doom and no Immortal helped him... > > Oh, BTW, i was forgetting to tell you which is the item i was referring > to.. well, it's pretty obvious now: the Imperial Crown... (how ironic..) But they could reveal to him the source of the problem, and then let him work out what to do about it, couldn't they? Giving out information is not "direct intervention", is it? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:10 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs In a message dated 98-07-16 15:04:41 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > O.k., why not. I don't insist on Alfheim, but I would like to see a > realm where the humans have taken over Elven customs. > The normal way is vice versa and is becoming very boring. > As you have solved the climatic problems I would say, that > we could go ahead with Wendar as we have too much realms > with an equally mixed Elven/Human population. A tropical or sub-tropical forest in Davania might be a good location for such a culture. The problem in Wendar is that the land there is more favorable to human customs than elven ones. However, an untamed forest environment might be more likely to influence humans to adopt elven ways. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:08 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > << The Savage Coast elves worship human Immortals (probably Valerias - in > which case marriage is pretty well a must). >> That does not follow. Valerias is a patroness of love and passion -- whether the result of that love is marriage or a steamy love affair is secondary. In fact, I tend to picture her as preferring the steamy love affair. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:05:07 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 98-07-17 16:59:35 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: > And if they really want to conquer sonething, then why not push deep into > northern Davania instead of attacking established nation. That really would be the best course for them -- especially if they can get around the Hinterlands (where they must be facing considerable resistance) and focus on less settled areas. On the other hand, if they adopt looser policies of control they might be able to settle matters with the Hinterlanders and then work out a mutually advantageous agreement with the Minrothad Guilds -- basically Thyatis would receive military bases in the islands while the Guilds would be allowed to expand economically into Hattias and the Thyatian mainland. It is remotely possible that Minrothad could be persuaded to agree to this proposal voluntarily, despite the fact that it would eventually lead to Thyatian domination of Minrothad. More likely, some of that famous Thyatian treachery could be used to intimidate or trick the Minrothads into agreeing to join up with Thyatis, with Operation Hydra available as a last resort. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:38:55 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Military Situation of Ierendi and Minrothad In a message dated 98-07-17 14:17:50 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: << > So, please forget this idea. > This is wise advice. Not because I think Thyatis couldn't "win" (airships can avoid the Island's naval forces), but because (as I've said in other messages) these ideas aren't going anywhere. There just isn't a "constituency" (outside a few rabid Thyatis fans, such as myself) for such schemes. No one wants to see nations of the "Known World" conquered. I think some of us (myself included) have had fun musing about how it could occur and the possible benifits, but it aint gonna happen. 8-) >> operation hydra is just a theoretical scenario. says so in my quasi disclaimer. it was something i played with a bit. mainly to bring minrothad into a gaming picture. if it was ever introduced into net almanac lore, i'd rather see it happen circa AC1020. give thyatis time to build and let some of the buildup events occur.events like minrothad allowing thyatian war galleys patrol their water due to increased pirate activity (covert ruse). or the dying duke of machetos getting even with stephan and the torenals by naming stephan's son as his heir. or eusebius's wife dying while giving birth. an overly ambitious thyatian commander trying to conquer a "wounded" Serainne undergoing repairs perched atop Grey Island (former Grey Mountains of Alphatia). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:46:35 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai > him would be a "victory" of sorts for Eusebius. I suspect that Moglai Khan > is in more danger along those lines -- or is he already dead according to > the net Almanacs? > Mogai was killed in the final battle with Glantri, leaving Ethengar in a Hobbsean State of Nature. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/LVOtJ.mid *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:48:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian 'Protectorates' > How about the idea where Thyatis offers to > "protect" various nations from their enemies -- the result is that > they are able to move their troops in without effective resistance. > Under current conditions, I think most nations would look dubiously upon such an offer. Thyatis would have to get allies before they'd agree to any kind of "protectorate" status. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:58:21 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > From: Patrick Sullivan > I'd like to welcome our new members to the list. It even looks like > we got another woman (hooray!)--our demographics are really skewed > > toward the male population. Uh oh, I think I am having some gaming con flashbacks. :P As a point of interest (or maybe not), out of all the woman I have roleplayed D&D or AD&D with, the majority seemed to like Mystara over the other settings, although Ravenloft was also rather popular. The least favorite, from my experience, is Greyhawk. A friend of mine once said, "If I hadn't already known the man sold shoes and insurance, I could of deduced it from reading his Greyhawk stuff." Make of that what you will. > As far as OD&D, there are indeed a number of fans here on the list, > and also many who play with a sort of OD&D/AD&D hybrid. Unfortunately I end up playing AD&D far more often than D&D, but it is hardly surprising. Since I am not big on running games, I can't really complain about what game system is used. Pouting gets me no where. :( How much D&D discussion does this list see? I love new ideas, as long as they are in the "spirit" of D&D (i.e. simple and fun). Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:55:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > Those will do for starters, certainly. And Davania has the special appeal > of letting Thyatis potentially resettle the homeland of the three tribes. > *_+ > territory. That is why I suggested that now might be the time to try to > gain power by less direct means. > I actually agree. Allies are a good way. I *do* think it would be good if Thyatis "got back" it's old possessions (as NACE has done with Alphatia's old junk). But other than that, going off conquering folks without provocation isn't a good way to "win friends and influence people". And Thyatis is friendless enough. On the other hand, if there *were* provocation, then things would be different. . . . . > > It is remotely possible that Minrothad could be persuaded to agree to > this proposal voluntarily, despite the fact that it would eventually lead > to Thyatian domination of Minrothad. More likely, some of that famous > Thyatian treachery could be used to intimidate or trick the Minrothads > into agreeing to join up with Thyatis, with Operation Hydra available as > a last resort. > Possible. Better to try and develop cooperation with Minrothad (in the way you initially outlined), which IMO is more likely given that they *should* find ways to cooperate over Aegos, and Thyatis is a "natural market" for Minrothad's goods. Anyhow, we'll have to see how things go. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:19:43 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad In a message dated 98-07-17 16:59:45 EDT, you write: << >Minrothad Military >IMO the Thadder security is a red herring. Their defensive forces are small Maybe they should lay mines all around the isles :-)>> and in the rivers. war galley vs. sailing ship in a river. who do you think is going to win. row row row that galley, gently upstream. merrily merrily merrily this has got to be a dream. >Foreign Repurcussions >IMO Minrothad will not get any real allies. Mirothad traders all renowned all over Mystara. Maybe they won't be able to get many allies in a short time, but they'll certainly reclaim the islands soon with the help of adventurers from all over Mystara.>> trade is the key. are the other nations willing to go to war with thyatis over trade? imo no. and if trade continues uninterrupted and essentially the same after thyatian occupation then no harm done. >NACE will not interfere as they have no need. Plus, if they wanted to aid >would see troops having to make a long arduous sail into Thyatian waters and >near Thyatian ports. What if NACE attacks Thyatis on the Isle of Dawn and Aegos while Thyatians are busy attacking Minrothad? Would they be able to stop the Alphatians?>> that was an option originally. particularly the IoD scenario. aegos was to be given back to nace. not as appeasement but as a twofold bribe. 1) nace is happy- a nearby holding for a distant island group of "traitors" (they did go independant from the alphatian empire). 2) imc nace gets real; influential with karameikos. by scoring brownie points with nace (aegos) they have a sympethetic alphatian presence in mirros. <> no need to. they have squabbled over crossbones. plus that alphatian thing was always an issue. imo thyatis had free reign versus nations like davania hinterlands but could not afford to further alienate kw nations by expanding so close to home. with alphatia castrated, thyatis can now turn its attention closer to home. <> oops....I mean Oops. Yeah I am getting better at typing one handed. Better get used to it. From what I was told the other day, it might be a future trend. I am not going to get back the full use of my hand. I'll be lucky to be able to use it to pick my nose. It's been a month since my surgery and no improvement. I guess that's why I have been a bit pissy acting here lately. Also slowed down my Mystara projects. Not ignoring yall....takes time. anyway, alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:41:17 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad In a message dated 98-07-17 18:00:58 EDT, you write: << << Why Minrothad? Minrothad is a rich nation. It is also a small nation. Minrothad is also strategically placed between Brun and the Hinterlands. And who would think Thyatis would assault Minrothad. Thyatis does have cause. Minrothad bluffed them on Aegos. And the Guilds were neutral during Wrath. By not siding with Thyatis the Thadders actually aided Alphatia. Minrothad is a trade competitor to Thyatis. >> I thought this would be an absurd idea when I've read it first, and I am still thinking this. Besides you seem to have forgotten that the Minrothaddans have the advantage that their waters are foggy and spicked with dangerous currents. I really don't believe that Thyatis could land it's army to battle the MGs on their own islands.>> Jamuga Khan fog is common enough no matter where one sails. same thing for reefs. means to address the above are out there and are used. also iirc the reefs and fog coincidently are strategically positioned to obstruct entrance in and out of minrothad's harbors. guess what? thyatis doesn't assault the harbors directly. they land their troops down the coast and let their superior land forces do their work after marching in. its strategy. using strategy anything is possible. armies look dandy on paper. when put into practice things can be very different. rw history proves that. look at ww2 france. on paper it was the biggest and best army in europe. in practice the chinks in the armour began to show. look at the spanish armada. huge and backed by the super power of the period. against little ole england they lost. for hydra, i played both sides commanding troops. imo i was even handed, reacting how the thadders would have. i even manipulated a few things to favor the thadders. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:43:29 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" At 08.45 17/07/98 -0500, james ruhland wrote: >Quisling isn't a *what* per se, "Quisling" is one of thouse cases where a >person's name (I.E. Orwell/Orwellian, McCarthy/McCarthyism) became an >adjectival description of a certain kind of thing ("Orwellian": >thought-controlled tyranny, corruption of the English language, etc., >"McCarthyism": witchunting, outragious charges, etc.) > Quisling was the dude that ran Norway as a puppet state for >Hitler/National Socialist Germany during WWII. His name became a biword for >traitor scum and 5th collumnism. Wondering... has this Quisling anything in common with OUR Qissling of Floating Ar (or does he live in Ar in the HW now?) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #518 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 519 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang [MYSTARA] - email change [ADMIN] Changing to Digest and Other Universal Mysteries (was Re: [MYSTARA] - email change) Re: [MYSTARA] -Qissling of Ar/Location of Ar [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:59:04 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? At 19.04 17/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > Thus the question I started this interminably long screed with. Should >Thyatis be saved at all? Or should it be blown away, to pass into history, >it's colony's going to NACE or going free, and the mainland (what's left of >it after, say, a devistating Civil War) going to Ylaruam, Karameikos, and >an independant Hattias (for example)? Do you REALLY think we (meaning the Almanac guys) have ANY intention of eradicating Thyatis from the face of Mystara? Do you REALLY think us capable of destroying one of the MOST IMPORTANT nations of the KW to favour another? Do you really think we are going to turn Mystara into an apocalyptic scenario like the one you've been describing (with Thyatis on its knees and Alphatia/NACE overshadowing all the other nations with its lies about democracy)? Oh, c'mon, James! Thyatis IS recovering, much like Alphatia and NACE. The only difference is that Thyatis comes from a phyrric victory where it got the worse deal (even though you might object that it's Alphatia that which sunk and not Thyatis... but hey, look at Alphatia and Thyatis post WotI in PWA and tell me which one's got the best political and social position). Thyatis WILL recover, else there won't be Mystara without Thyatis. It will recover starting with a colonial expansion much like NACE is doing. the only difference is that Thyatis' one will be militaristic, while NACE is using diplomacy (Darokin on the big scale). Just wait and your hopes will be realized... I hope... ;) DM (speaking for myself... and not being the one responsible for Thyatis) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:02:16 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol's Death: an explanation At 01.04 18/07/98 EDT, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-16 12:17:40 EDT, mdalmonte@provincia.ra.it writes: > >> Now, I think >> that even if the other Immortals would have liked to help Thincol to get >> his support and worship, they couldn't simply come down and smash the item, >> nor dispel the effect, probably because this would count as "direct >> intervention" and also because the item could have now become a (cursed) >> artifact, much more difficult to destroy. That's why Thincol didn't dodge >> his doom and no Immortal helped him... >> >> Oh, BTW, i was forgetting to tell you which is the item i was referring >> to.. well, it's pretty obvious now: the Imperial Crown... (how ironic..) > >But they could reveal to him the source of the problem, and then let him >work out what to do about it, couldn't they? Giving out information is not >"direct intervention", is it? Sure, they could. Let's say then that he probably wasn't able to solve the problem before it was too late... After all, it's not easy to destroy an artifact, don't you think? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:18:25 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > As a point of interest (or maybe not), out of all the woman I have >roleplayed D&D or AD&D with, the majority seemed to like Mystara over >the other settings, although Ravenloft was also rather popular. The The fairer sex seems to have better taste, as well. Actually, I'll postulate a thory for this: Mystara is a world made up of shades of gray; women, who generally act in American culture as mediators and peacemakers, do not see the world in the black and white, good and evil terms so common in other settings. > How much D&D discussion does this list see? I love new ideas, as >long as they are in the "spirit" of D&D (i.e. simple and fun). Unfortunately, very little. The D&D rules are awfully straightforward, so there is little discussion (except for debates about the Gold Immortals Box and Wrath of the Immortals.) Most of our time is spent in arguing incessantly about moot points concerning imperialistic powers. But that's really just 'cause we can't find much better to talk about. Try suggesting something, maybe it'll catch on. Along these lines, I had an idea: would there be enough interest on this list to convert the Savage Coast stuff into OD&D terms? It would probably be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:23:03 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) >2) Encourage the collapse of Hule -- in which case Hule does indeed fall >into chaos. Why would the Master do something so strange? Remember >that he serves Chaos and Entropy, so he might decide that Hule has >become too orderly for his purposes. Or he may decide that he can >spread his followers all over the world faster as refugees than as conquerors >-- and the refugeees would get a marginally better reception than the >conquerors would. Furthermore, it would be harder for his foes to outlaw >a refugee cult than an enemy cult. This, I just cannot see. I don't believe the Master serves chaos. Remember, chaos does not equal entropy. I think we can fairly safely assume that the Master will be an immortal patron of lies--and a powerful empire can do far more to extend his power than can small groups of refugees. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:51:49 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? > In addition, there was Stefan, abandoning his lifelong friend, the one who >had given him all he had (Traldara), at his time of greatest need. Folks One thing that I think you fail to take into account is the fact that, too an outside observer, Thincol was insane to stand up to Alphatia. The empire was nearly destroyed in the last war with Alphatia, and Thyatis had no real interest in protecting Glantri anyway. Also, Thincol's exchange with Stefan was not all that generous--in fact many would then have probably said Stefan got a raw deal. > Where was I? Oh. Gone was any sense that Thyatis had anything like >Citizenship. Gone was any sense that there was any loyalty to Thyatis based >on such a concept. Gone was any sense that there was a >republican/electorial component to the Thyatian government. Gone was any >sense that slaves might be better treated in Thyatis than in Alphatia. I'll agree with you here. I think the spirit of Democracy in Alphatia is completely off-base. These things were never emphasized, but there was never really a forum to emphasize them. The Almanacs were certainly not the place to write about the life of a Thyatian commoner, and no AD&D Thyatis boxed set ever came out. IMHO, Thyatis should survive. But it must adapt to survive. There will be trials along the way, but that is what makes it worthwhile. After all, who do you consider the most heroic person in the Almanacs? Only one man gave up his love, his health, his prestige, and, ultimately, his life to save an empire. Things were miserable, but that's what makes for great tragedy. Now it's up to Eusebius to continue the work of his heroic father. It won't be easy, but something substantive will eventually come of his rule. Thyatis will have to abandon it's old methods of solving every problem with its military. Darokin would be thrilled to have Thyatis as an ally, particularly since things aren't looking to good in Glantri and Ylaruam. Thyatis would benefit from such an alliance, so it is probably he best idea. This means, by extension, cooperation with Karameikos and even NACE. If Thyatis is truly desperate for a fight, it could attack Ylaruam, but the best target for aggression would undoubtedly be Hule. Thyatis and Alphatia can, with Stefan's help, bridge their differences and begin to at least profit from trade, even if they'll never achieve "Thyphatia." Hule, on the other hand, presents the most serious threat to the security of the Thyatian homeland. Also, if Thyatis increases its role as a mercantile nation, it would certainly try to monopolize the flow of Red Steel into the East. Thyatis could easily establish close relationships with some of the baronies and city-states: military protection in exchange for red steel. This just begs conflict with Hule, though. The best part might even be that Thyatis could vent it's aggression on a nation with no real allies, while increasing its strength and wealth. As far as the "unfair" treatment that Thyatis has received, I think it makes a great story. But at any rate, how much of it was intentional? Did Anne Dupuis and Aaron Allston use the domain events table in the RC (or a modified version) to at least outline events in the Almanacs? It seems that this is likely, since there are occasionally incidents that seem to have little to do with any continuing plot line (e.g., the expansion of Ierendi Island via the volcano). Do the Net Almanac people do this? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:53:01 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> Probably all the juicy stuff would have been on mainland Alphatia anyway. >> As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk >> into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic >> enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much >of >> an economy... >> >Gah! *shocked that you would even mention such a thing*. > IMO, the colonial possessions of both Empires are about as "valuable" as >the colonial possessions of 19th & 20th century nations. Ultimately, they >were more a matter of "prestege", and once you factored in the cost of >aquiring, maintaining, and garrisoning them, they neither added nor >detracted from the actual strength (or weakness) of the "metropolitan" >imperial power. Just an opinion. My point exactly. >> >> ROB (I'm trying to prove James Ruhland wrong. Someone agree with me, >if >> only to shut him up :) >> >Trying to prove me wrong? Am I that hated and dispised? I'm the advocate of the view that the N.A. is written at least partly by democracy, remember? If Thyatis gains enough support they will do well. :) And your not hated and despised. Your ranting screeds are cool. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:01:54 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad << > Anyway, if it's so easy to conquer Minrothad, why haven't they done this in > the past? > Haven't needed to. >> Haven't be able to. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:01:47 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. << 2) Stefan can't ignore his Thyatian population, or his homeland, forever. Even if he is collaborationist scum. He could be "encouraged" to stop his trecherous flirtations with NACE/Alphatia, and return to an alliance with his homeland. >> Stefan Karameikos has many faults, but treason is none of them. Beside I don't believe that the Thyatians see it so dramatically, and the personal friendship between Stefan and Thincol had cooled down after the founding of the Grand Duchy. In the war between Thyatis and Alphatia there was nothing Karameikos would have been able to do. The mighty Alphatian armies would have stomped down the Karameikan troops into the ground without even noticing it. Finally, the Grand Duchy of Karameikos was an independent state and Thyatis is losing credibility should it try to punish Stefan for staying neutral. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:39:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) I think there is a logical explanation as to why Alphatia's reputation has improved, especially at the cost of that of other nations. I call it the "Haldemar effect", after the hero of the "Princess Ark" series. While Haldemar was an interesting and mostly decent-minded character, I think it had the effect of influencing other authors and designers to depict Alphatia itself in a more favorable light and its enemies in a less favorable light. The main victim of this shift was the "Heldannic Freeholds" -- but that name was dropped once it became known that the Heldanners were controlled by the evil Hattians. Of course, there were fewer complaints about this shift because (a) few details about the place had been published, and (b) at the time of the shift the majority of the population were depicted as victims of Hattian oppression. But by now most of you have forgotten about the "original" Heldanners, right? Now when anyone mentions "Heldanner", all you think of is those fanatical Clerics of Vanya. As for Thyatis, the main feature that seems to demand an explanation is the way that Ochalea and the Pearl Islands seceded after a thousand years as full citizens of the Thyatian Empire. Surely, if they felt that they were in military danger from Alphatia (although that is never even hinted at) but did not want to betray Thyatis any more than necessary, the logical thing to do would have been to surrender to Thyatis. That way, they could expect reasonably fair treatment regardless of who won. And that is what they probably did during the earlier Alphatian Spike Assault about fifty years earlier. But there was something different going on during WotI -- the Immortals were stirring up their people to take sides in the feud between two groups of Immortals, and somehow Ilsundal had gained enough influence in those lands that he persuaded them to declare independence. The only conclusion we can draw is that the inhabitants of these two lands (listed under "conquered lands" even in the Thyatian book of DotE) never considered themselves to be part of Thyatis, even after a thousand years - -- otherwise Korotiku, at least, would have been able to keep the Pearl Islands loyal. But I think what we are seeing in the decline of Thyatis is a very fast transformation of Thyatis from "Rome" to "Byzantium". The original Roman Empire controlled most of the Mediterranean by force -- and most of the subjects of that empire did not regard themselves as Romans. However, after the fall of Rome, the failure of efforts by Justinian and others to reconquer the West (somewhat reflected in the PWA wars), and the lost of the Middle East and North Africa to the Moslems, the remaining core of the Eastern Empire was much more stable and unified (the remaining people were mostly of Greco-Roman culture) and indeed lasted for over a thousand years after the fall of the Western Empire. So if that analogy holds up, then it becomes clear that the recovery of Thyatis will begin only when its wars end -- but then it will be able to regain much of its prestige rather than its power. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:15:42 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? >One thing that I think you fail to take into account is the fact that, too >an outside observer, Thincol was insane to stand up to Alphatia. The empire >was nearly destroyed in the last war with Alphatia, and Thyatis had no real >interest in protecting Glantri anyway. Also, Thincol's exchange with Stefan >was not all that generous--in fact many would then have probably said Stefan >got a raw deal. If Thincol didnt stand up to Alphatia, then he is sending completely the wrong message to Eriadna. The whole point of deterrent is that you have to prove you are willing to act. If Thincol backed down than Alphatia could just start land grabbing, as obviously Thyatis isnt going to do anything about it. The Falklands war started because the Argentines didnt think Britain would do anything about it. If they did think Britain cared enough about the islands, they wouldnt have attacked in the first place... (at least, thats what the Argentine commanding officer said afterwards) Besides, Vanya said so. :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:21:41 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > How can we (or should we?) give more attention to that fact, I.E. the >virtues rather than always and only the vices of this nation, and/or start >it on the road to change (facing grave crisies are often a prod to internal >change/re-evaluation of established custom). > Or should Thyatis just be left to die quietly? > Definately NOT! Thyatis is too good a villan to be allowed to die quietly in it`s sleep. IMC the revelation about Vanya is leading to a kickstarting of renovation. e.g. the testing of new units against the Hattians in preperation for the valiant successful attempt to destroy those mad Heldannics etc. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:43:45 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 06:31:29 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes: > Along these lines, I had an idea: would there be enough interest on this > list to convert the Savage Coast stuff into OD&D terms? It would probably > be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people > are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? We should probably start with a list of what needs to be converted. Most of the races were first described in addenda to the "Princess Ark" series, so reverting to that material would clearly be the way to get most of the D&D conversions. So which AD&D material for the Savage Coast is totally new, with no earlier D&D counterpart? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:47:53 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) >IMHO much too complicated. The solution that you must >have the genetic ability to cast spells is much more elegant. >This of course means that a PC magic-user always has the >ability. For NPC the DM has to make the decision. I really >don't believe that we'll need rules for that. > Yes GM perogative is always applicable, but all i did was give an idea of the sort of numbers that could become a mage in population. You know maximum limits. I don`t think 85,000 mages in 1,000,000 is really workable. do you? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:59:39 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?": Names and the English Lang >Fine! So I have now a place in Mystara! > >If I only knew what khanate were mine... :-) > Empire of the Great Khan? :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:52:41 EDT From: Dleggend@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - email change just want to let the list know that I changed my e-mail to: Dlegend@earthlink.net By the way how do I get the mailing list in Digest form? Thanks my web page will be coming down or I will move it. (Never have time to update it anyway) Enter Dleggend's Page *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:06:44 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [ADMIN] Changing to Digest and Other Universal Mysteries (was Re: [MYSTARA] - email change) > By the way how do I get the mailing list in Digest form? First, mail me two thousand dollars in small, unmarked bills... Changing from digest to normal, and vice versa, is simply a matter of uns u bbing from one and res u bbing to another. If you don't recall how to sub, check out the FAQ at the list homepage at... http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ...for complete details. BTW, two of the words in the above paragraph are spaced goofy so this message deson't get bounced for containing admin commands. Damn majordomo... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:15:58 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -Qissling of Ar/Location of Ar > > Wondering... has this Quisling anything in common with OUR Qissling of > Floating Ar (or does he live in Ar in the HW now?) > 1) no, I don't think so. 2) Floating Ar is situated above the Yannivey Islands, OW. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:29:32 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Rebbekah: At 08:45 PM 7/16/98 PDT, Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > >---------- > Hi! I am new to this list (and mailing lists as a whole), but I >thought this would be a good chance to come out of the shadows I >have been lurking in for the last couple of days. Hey ho, there! It sure is /nice/ to see another assuredly female name on this list. You know, we took a survey here, oh, over a year or so ago, and I was the only woman on the list at the time (at least the only one who admitted it). We'd had another for a while -- Jennifer Favia -- but she had to drop off the list for various reasons. There's also at least one woman on the MMB (TSR's "Mystara Message Board") who goes by the name of "Rotipher", but I don't know if she lurks here as well, or not. I do hope you stick around for a while -- I think these rough'n'ready boys could do with a bit more of the feminine perspective in their midst! ;-) > IMO, D&D is far more fun than AD&D, and while I am willing to play >either of them, on those rare occasions I DM, I always go with D&D, >and always with Mystara. I think the only real advantage AD&D has is >a better range of resources, such as a wider selection of creatures, >spells, magic items and such. But I often convert these over; I own >a fair bit of AD&D stuff bought soley for D&D. I'm similar, although, to be brutally honest, there are many things I don't /really/ like in both oD&D and AD&D. As a result, I play 'house rules D&D' (hD&D?) which is primarily based on the oD&D rules from the Cyclopedia (I do like the simplicity), but with a smattering of AD&D 'borrows' and a lot of 'personalized rules'. For example, I've always had problems with the magic system in either version of D&D. It just doesn't feel like the way I expect 'fantasy magic' to work -- you know how in novels mages and/or holy men can cast whatever spell/miracle they want, whenever they want, except for maybe how 'tired' they are because of how many spells and of what 'complication' they have already cast. So, I've started playing my campaigns with a spell-point system, and it seems to be working out for us so far. Notably, this system is primarily based on a system our estemed List Owner, Leroy, uses for his AD&D games, but with significant modifications to 'fit it into' oD&D and Mystara. (I'm still working the kinks out, but will definitly pass the details along to the list when I'm done. :-) > I have recently been reading a friend's Planescape books, and have >been really enjoying it. I think I may pick up some of the stuff for >it and give it a try in a future game. Has anyone ever done this? If >so many of the people on the list play AD&D, I would imagine someone >has. How well did it work out? The Planescape version seems so much >more colorful. I've never read up on Planescape myself, but I /think/ some work has been done in this area by a few list members... At least I seem to recall much debate in the past on exactly how Mystara could be fit into Planescape. The same is true for Mystara and Spelljammer stuff. This sort of thing might be available on someone's web site or two -- I'd suggest starting at Shawn Stanley's "Official MML archive" site and working your way out from there to see what interesting topics different Mystara lovers have worked out already. (Shawn's site is at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304) At 10:58 PM 7/17/98 PDT, Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > As a point of interest (or maybe not), out of all the woman I have >roleplayed D&D or AD&D with, the majority seemed to like Mystara over >the other settings, [...] Well, I am another female who enjoys Mystara best over the few other fantasy RPG worlds she's encountered. In a later message, someone mentioned the 'shades of grey' aspect to the world and I'd say that's not a bad theory. I love the fact that, in Mystara, you can find communities of 'Good' Gnolls, and that, if you just look at them from the right perspective, other humanoids aren't necessarily 'all bad' -- just short and brutish ;-) As a further example of the 'grey' of Mystara, James' recent 'screeds' about Stephan Karameikos have really got me thinking! My campaign started in Darokin, and none of the characters are from Karameikos -- two from Thyatis, one from Ostland and one from Sindh). The idea of Stephan being seen as a 'bad guy' in some quarters is incredibly intriguing to me, and might even leak into my campaign -- if they ever get to Karameikos (they're currently going to be heading South West, towards the Serpent Peninsual). In any case, nothing is "hard and fast" for me and (as someone in some other, unrelated, post pointed out) "One man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter." I think this 'greyness' is the true /essence/ of Mystara and could very well explain a lot about the type of people who love to play within the borders of its countries. (Hmm, I wonder if that fact could be manipulated into something useful for the "SaveMystara" campaign. How could "shades of grey" be positively promoted as something Unique about Mystara, without sounding wishy-washy?) >[...] although Ravenloft was also rather popular. I've never played Ravenloft, but I've looked at some of the Modules and they did seem particularily intriguing. I've heard a lot of female RPG'ers also tend to gravitate towards the White Wolf games like Vampyre and such... I wonder what the connection to 'Gothic' is for women? Actually, on the topic of Ravenloft, /MY/ Mystara is so totally non-canon (what with entire AD&D modules plunked into Darokin and some D&D modules moved from wherever they're "supposed to be" to wherever I "need them to be") I've been thinking about trying out a Ravenloft module or two. Does anyone have any recommendations about which Ravenloft's are /really//good/ adventures, and that might not require too much re-working to fit into place in Mystara? >The least favorite, from my experience, is Greyhawk. A friend of mine >once said, "If I hadn't already known the man sold shoes and insurance, >I could of deduced it from reading his Greyhawk stuff." > Make of that what you will. Hah. That comment about Greyhawk is funny. B-D > How much D&D discussion does this list see? I love new ideas, as >long as they are in the "spirit" of D&D (i.e. simple and fun). Well, as someone else suggested, if you have an oD&D idea or comment you'd like to have discussed, try posting a message to the list about it and it may spark some interest. Sometimes, posts don't get any replies -- usually when most people agree but wouldn't have anything to add -- but don't let that stop you from trying again. Asking direct questions often gets more response than just making a comment. Also, if you /really/ want to hear what others think and no one has made a comment after a week or so, sometimes sending another post a few weeks later re-iterating your ideas will open the flood gates. ;-) In any case, it's nice to welcome another member of the 'fairer' sex to the MML. I hope you enjoy it here as much as I have over the past. :-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:24:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? > > Do you REALLY think we (meaning the Almanac guys) have ANY intention of > eradicating Thyatis from the face of Mystara? > That wasn't nessisarily the point of the screed. The point is, as Thyatis has been portrayed in recient years (and, again, I'll point out that I do *not* think that this is the fault of the Net Almanac team), is it *worth* having it exist? There is nothing "lovely" about Thyatis as it has been portrayed since WotI. IMO, and only IMO, either that should change, and an emphasis & evolution on some benevolent things about Thyatis should recieve some attention, or it *should* be "eradicat[ed]. . .from the face of Mystara" > > Oh, c'mon, James! Thyatis IS recovering, much like Alphatia and NACE. > One would never get that impression from the PWAs, JA, or NAs. I sent in some recomeneded "edits" which changed no events (all the Twaelar events stay the same, for example), but which add events that would have the effect of indicating/foreshadowing a recovery (since it's hardly believable to go from all grimness to a sudden recovery). I *thought* that I mailed them to you, but perhaps I neglected to. If I did neglect to, let me know and I'll fwd them. > Thyatis WILL recover, else there won't be Mystara without Thyatis. It will > recover starting with a colonial expansion much like NACE is doing. the > only difference is that Thyatis' one will be militaristic, while NACE is > using diplomacy (Darokin on the big scale). Just wait and your hopes will > be realized... I hope... ;) > I'd prefer, myself, that they use a carrot rather than a stick approach, myself. I don't always want to be the bad guy. If that's the case, then Osterhaus should be emperor. He'd make a dynamic villian & focus for hate. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:37:37 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? > One thing that I think you fail to take into account is the fact that, too > an outside observer, Thincol was insane to stand up to Alphatia. The empire > was nearly destroyed in the last war with Alphatia, and Thyatis had no real > interest in protecting Glantri anyway. Also, Thincol's exchange with Stefan > was not all that generous--in fact many would then have probably said Stefan > got a raw deal. > 1) Perhaps, but that doesn't nessissarily turn one's back *completly* on your own people and make friends with folks who have killed many of them, and stay friends with such people *after* the crisis is over. 2) I'd argue against that. Traldara was *exactly* what Stefan was looking for (a challenging place that he could "shape" into his own image), and Thincol gave it to him. Thincol didn't *force* Stefan to govern it. Stefan asked, recieved, and got, IMO, a *wonderful* deal. > I'll agree with you here. I think the spirit of Democracy in Alphatia is > completely off-base. These things were never emphasized, but there was > never really a forum to emphasize them. The Almanacs were certainly not the > place to write about the life of a Thyatian commoner, and no AD&D Thyatis > boxed set ever came out. > Perhaps; but the PWAs found room to make Alphatia look like a nice place to live. I dk why that couldn't/can't be done for Thyatis. > IMHO, Thyatis should survive. But it must adapt to survive. There will be > trials along the way, but that is what makes it worthwhile. After all, who > do you consider the most heroic person in the Almanacs? > The Almanacs, and his numerous admireres, would have you believe that Stefan is the most heroic person in them. > Only one man gave > up his love, his health, his prestige, and, ultimately, his life to save an > empire. Things were miserable, but that's what makes for great tragedy. > Now it's up to Eusebius to continue the work of his heroic father. It won't > be easy, but something substantive will eventually come of his rule. > I am in accord with this. > Thyatis will have to abandon it's old methods of solving every problem with > its military. Darokin would be thrilled to have Thyatis as an ally, > particularly since things aren't looking to good in Glantri and Ylaruam. > I agree with you on that, especially the former. However, on the latter, there is a practical problem: we can't have every nation turning into friends, or it might make for a boring gameworld. Or at least a less geopolitically exciting one. > Thyatis would benefit from such an alliance, so it is probably he best idea. > This means, by extension, cooperation with Karameikos and even NACE. If > Thyatis is truly desperate for a fight, it could attack Ylaruam, but the > Ylaruam *did* "kick Thyatis when it was down". Returning the favor would be justice. Rough justice, but justice none the less. Still, asside from my grim desire to see Tarmokikas back within Thyatis, there is no reason to attack Ylaruam, and some reason not to (it too is poor, devistated by war, and it would be "bad PR" to attack Ylaruam now: even if it *is* run by the Kin faction, they *did* defeat a horrible invasion of Fiends.) > homeland. Also, if Thyatis increases its role as a mercantile nation, it > would certainly try to monopolize the flow of Red Steel into the East. > Something like that IMO is a possibility, but Min. stands in the way, IMO. > Thyatis could easily establish close relationships with some of the baronies > and city-states: military protection in exchange for red steel. > Many of the Baronies *are* quasi-colonies. A relationship isn't that hard to envision. > > As far as the "unfair" treatment that Thyatis has received, I think it makes > a great story. But at any rate, how much of it was intentional? Did Anne > Dupuis and Aaron Allston use the domain events table in the RC (or a > modified version) to at least outline events in the Almanacs? > I think a lot of it was intentional. The sudden seccession of Ochalea & the Pearl Islands, the Thothian Special Forces (ok, no one nessisarily wanted an outcome where Thyatis conquered the entire Isle of Dawn: still the whole Thothian thing was, IMO, a case of "piling on", a case of adding insult to injury). If the "domain events table" was used, one would be forced to admit that no other nation suffered so much from it's effects. Famine, mass death, rioting, etc. If "events" like that occured for some other nation, they would have "solved" the problem before it got so far out of hand. > Do the Net Almanac people do this? > I have no idea. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #519 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 520 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Back again Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:39:37 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. > Finally, the Grand Duchy of Karameikos was an independent > state and Thyatis is losing credibility should it try to punish > Stefan for staying neutral. > If he were staying neutral, that would be one thing, but he's chumming up to "the enemy", and that's another thing entirely. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:36:33 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Back again I'm back, folks! Just that I have loads of mystara-mail in my inbox. It'll take me hours to get through this. Great stuff guys! I'm glad this flamewar stopped before I left you. all these mails look really interesting and if I get the time. If anyone want to send me fanmail, message me private okay? ;) later Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:49:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) > Haldemar was an interesting and mostly decent-minded character, > I think it had the effect of influencing other authors and designers to > depict Alphatia itself in a more favorable light and its enemies in a less > favorable light. > That interpretation seems logical. > you have forgotten about the "original" Heldanners, right? Now when > anyone mentions "Heldanner", all you think of is those fanatical > Clerics of Vanya. > Not in AA's PBeM 8-) We're reminded all the time that the "real" Heldanners are the victims of the HKs. (of course, some of that has to do with the HKs themselves allying with the most feared & hated force in the game. And *no*, I *DON'T* mean Thyatis. We're the 2nd most hated, but not nearly the most feared. Glantri would probably be the 2nd most feared.) > > But I think what we are seeing in the decline of Thyatis is a very fast > transformation of Thyatis from "Rome" to "Byzantium". The original > Roman Empire controlled most of the Mediterranean by force -- and > most of the subjects of that empire did not regard themselves as > Romans. However, after the fall of Rome, the failure of efforts by > Justinian and others to reconquer the West (somewhat reflected in > the PWA wars), and the lost of the Middle East and North Africa to > the Moslems, the remaining core of the Eastern Empire was much > more stable and unified (the remaining people were mostly of > Greco-Roman culture) and indeed lasted for over a thousand years > after the fall of the Western Empire. > Hmmmn. . .all true. I'm not sure I see Thyatis as having gone in that direction, but I may be missing something. > So if that analogy holds up, then it becomes clear that the recovery > of Thyatis will begin only when its wars end -- but then it will be able > to regain much of its prestige rather than its power. > Well, we'll see. The problem, IMO, is that without the colonies, Thyatis itself is too small in size, if not in population. And we've already gone over why it can't or shouldn't expand in Brun itself. Thus some colonies are needed, but once that is "given" then *some* of the rest follow. Ochalea especially (for strategic purposes), and Westrorke (again, for strategic purposes). I'd actually be willing to wave "goodbye" to the Exarchates if Thyatis had Traldara & Minrothad & Ierendi, making it a "significant" size on the Mainland. But, as I said, we've already discussed why this won't occur. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:55:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > > Definately NOT! Thyatis is too good a villan to be allowed to die > quietly in it`s sleep. > If it's a villian, then IMO Osterhaus should take over. He's a much better villian anyhow, and if it becomes the Hattian Empire then at least the pretence that Thyatis is just one (flawed) nation in a world of many (flawed) nations, few who are strictly speaking "evil", will be over. Plus, I view this somewhat as the "Zhentil Keep"/"Red Wizards" effect: a "good villian" who is constantly thwarted, suffers from Orbital Bombardment (and other disasters), and otherwise your "snidely whiplash" inneffectual "villian" is more of a laughingstock than something to be feared. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:08:42 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 06:31:29 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes: > Along these lines, I had an idea: would there be enough interest on this > list to convert the Savage Coast stuff into OD&D terms? It would probably > be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people > are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? Yeah it's called Voyage of the Princess Ark. The rules in that work for me much better than any of the stuff since - Bruce got it right the first time round. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:19:06 +1000 From: stan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) >Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:04:59 EDT >From: Kaviyd@aol.com >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) > >In a message dated 98-07-16 07:06:07 EDT, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > >> So why wouldn't he continue to unite his people after the Master goes? This >> started when you said that Hule would experience chaos when the Master >left. > >If he is destroyed, then chaos should result. Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends upon who you think the Master really is. >If he achieves Immortality, then he could do one of two things: Why, you think he's in line for Immortality? There's no indication that Hosadus ever made it, and he actually did things. But let's go on assuming firstly that he's in line for Immortality and that he achieves it. >1) Continue to hold Hule together -- in which case Hule becomes even >stronger than ever. Fair enough. >2) Encourage the collapse of Hule -- in which case Hule does indeed fall >into chaos. Why would the Master do something so strange? Remember >that he serves Chaos and Entropy, so he might decide that Hule has >become too orderly for his purposes. If he's a bit simple in the head maybe, and he hasn't displayed that talent yet. >Or he may decide that he can >spread his followers all over the world faster as refugees than as conquerors >- -- and the refugeees would get a marginally better reception than the >conquerors would. Furthermore, it would be harder for his foes to outlaw >a refugee cult than an enemy cult. His followers? So everyone suddenly forgets Loki? >The more I think about it, the more I think that the Master would have >good reason to cause Hule to collapse a generation or two after he >achieves Immortality. But again what about Loki. I doubt he'd give up on Hule just because the Master achieves immortality. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:19:08 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) >I've been thinking about trying out a Ravenloft module or two. >Does anyone have any recommendations about which >Ravenloft's are /really//good/adventures, and that might not >require too much re-working to fit into place in Mystara? >Jenni A. M. Merrifield >-=> strawberryJAMM <=- I'm not really up on the more recent RL modules, so I'm going to suggest the old standby's that I love so well. They are, actually, the same module. The older one is Called: "I6 Ravenloft", and the newer version of it with slight changes (2nd edition compatibility mostly) is called "The House of Strahd". There is also a sequel to Ravenloft "I10 Gryphon Hill" or something like that. These were the original works that sparked the setting, and are fantastic for introducing characters to the "Gothic Horror" genre, although information about Fear and Horror checks is highly useful for these if you have access to those rules. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:23:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara > >Ravenloft's are /really//good/adventures, and that might not > >require too much re-working to fit into place in Mystara? > >Jenni A. M. Merrifield > >-=> strawberryJAMM <=- > > The older one is Called: "I6 Ravenloft", and the newer version of it > with slight changes (2nd edition compatibility mostly) is called "The House > of Strahd". > I6 would, IMHO, fit perfectly into one of the more "secluded"/infrequented areas of Karameikos (especially if you're playing in circa 1000 AC, before the place got more populated & opened up). The "common folk" are a rough facimile of Traldarans (a Slavo-Transylvanian feel* to names, etc.) *Now, before people point out that the folk of Transylvania are a mix of Valachians & Magyars, I know that. > > There is also a sequel to Ravenloft "I10 Gryphon Hill" or something like > that. > This one has a bit more of a "English" feel to it, and IMO might fit well in one of the Glantrian Principalities (especially since dude is a "mad scientist" Alchemist with his. . .well, I best not say much more). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:44:31 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Patrick Sullivan wrote: > incessantly about moot points concerning imperialistic powers. But that's > really just 'cause we can't find much better to talk about. Try suggesting > something, maybe it'll catch on. That's all on the main list. The Development groups do talk about a few more interesting things, fortelling the future, writing Almanacs for years that haven't come yet, Creating whole Cities, etc. > be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people > are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? I'm love to see a D&D red steel. AD&D doesn't do ANYTHING on Mystara justice. IMO Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:44:29 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara >I6 would, IMHO, fit perfectly into one of the more >"secluded"/infrequented areas of Karameikos (especially if >you're playing in circa 1000 AC, before the place got more >populated & opened up). The "common folk" are a rough >facimile of Traldarans (a Slavo-Transylvanian feel* to names, >etc.) >*Now, before people point out that the folk of Transylvania are a >mix of Valachians & Magyars, I know that. I had been thinking that Barovia could be some forgotten village in the mountains (Sorry bad on Mystaran Geography, I've only got the maps from the modules to cover it) north of Karameikos. Thoughts? >> There is also a sequel to Ravenloft "I10 Gryphon Hill" or >>something like that. >This one has a bit more of a "English" feel to it, and IMO might >fit well in one of the Glantrian Principalities (especially since >dude is a "mad scientist" Alchemist with his. . .well, I best not >say much more). Glantri is definitely the place for this one. Just a sidenote on this one too. For those who have X2 Castle Amber, the mists in that, and all the weirdness would be a great way to pull characters into a Ravenloft game. Also, bringing characters out of Ravenloft into Mystara, this module could be used as the go-between. Linking the curse to Ravenloft is not too difficult, and those mists just work perfectly for it. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:49:09 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, stan wrote: > Yeah it's called Voyage of the Princess Ark. The rules in that work for me > much better than any of the stuff since - Bruce got it right the first time > round. Unfortunately, those were all Dragon Articles, and I suspect most of us don't have the whole set. Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? MAx IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:56:33 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > From: Patrick Sullivan > > As a point of interest (or maybe not), out of all the woman I have > >roleplayed D&D or AD&D with, the majority seemed to like Mystara over > >the other settings, although Ravenloft was also rather popular. The > The fairer sex seems to have better taste, as well. Truer words were never spoken. :) > Actually, I'll > postulate a thory for this: Mystara is a world made up of shades of gray; > women, who generally act in American culture as mediators and peacemakers, > do not see the world in the black and white, good and evil terms so common > in other settings. A very noble theory. The fact that one of the most powerful countries of the world was ruled by a woman of immense magical power never hurt, either. : ) > > How much D&D discussion does this list see? I love new ideas, as > >long as they are in the "spirit" of D&D (i.e. simple and fun). > Unfortunately, very little. The D&D rules are awfully straightforward, so > there is little discussion (except for debates about the Gold Immortals Box > and Wrath of the Immortals.) Hmmmm, if anyone is keeping a tally, I would vote for Wrath. The old Immortals set read like a theoretical math book half the time. I much prefer the simplicity of Wrath, plus it has tons more Mystara- specific stuff. I didn't much care for the adventure, nor for the fact that TSR chose to make it official. Not that it matters much at this point, I suppose. > Most of our time is spent in arguing > incessantly about moot points concerning imperialistic powers. But that's > really just 'cause we can't find much better to talk about. Try suggesting > something, maybe it'll catch on. Ummm, suggestions, eh? Let me think... anyone ever wonder how the world the D'Ambrevilles and the McGregors came from evolved without a major magical presence? Principalities of Glantri states they were fleeing religious persecution, so I always envisioned a world were wizardly magic nearly died out (except for a few hidden cabals), and clerical magic reigned, revolving around a monotheistic religion. They would have also advanced farther technologically, due to a lack of convenient magic, making them a sort of techno-theocracy. I have been thinking about using this idea in a future campaign, if I DM any time soon. Have the Otherworld discover gates to Mystara, and seeing all the rampant heathenism, decide they need to be shown the light. So, they start sending some agents in to look around a check things out. It is, of course, up to a band of intrepid heroes to discover this plot before the Otherworld rolls in the battletanks. Then again, maybe a big Otherworld vs. Mystara war might prove interesting. Certainly more interesting that the "member" waving fest of Immortal's Fury. :P (Yes, yes, I know Wrath tried to tell us that the Otherworld is now known as the "Dimension of Myth", but that never really worked for me). > Along these lines, I had an idea: would there be enough interest on this > list to convert the Savage Coast stuff into OD&D terms? It would probably > be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people > are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? I never did really go for the Red Steel setting. At least they toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta from the Princess Ark thing. I love the Rakasta, but prefer them nice and occidental. I also like them as one species, not as the broad name for humanoid cats that was put forward by Bruce Heard in Dragon. Same with Lupins. It is funny, now that I think about it. If I reall like something about Mystara, at some point someone came along and warped in some way into a form I didn't like. Rakasta, Lupins, Alfheim, Shadow Elves, Alphatia. Makes me wonder if I really want to see Mystara resurrected. :( Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:59:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara > I had been thinking that Barovia could be some forgotten village in the > mountains (Sorry bad on Mystaran Geography, I've only got the maps from the > modules to cover it) north of Karameikos. Thoughts? > Seems like a good idea. The mountains north of the Dymrak might be a good area, either that or the area north west of Halag/Luln. > > Just a sidenote on this one too. For those who have X2 Castle Amber, the > mists in that, and all the weirdness would be a great way to pull characters > into a Ravenloft game. > Also, bringing characters out of Ravenloft into Mystara, this module > could be used as the go-between. Linking the curse to Ravenloft is not too > difficult, and those mists just work perfectly for it. > That's a good point. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:01:38 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" > > Unfortunately, those were all Dragon Articles, and I suspect most of us > don't have the whole set. > > Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? > > Champions of Mystara is *fairly* comprehensive. I.E. in that the stuff not in there is in the Savage Coast materiel. The boxed Champions of Mystara set includes descriptions of Sind, Yvaldom, Ulimwngu, and rules for build-your-own Airship, as well as a detailed description of the Ark itself and the major personalities. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:14:06 EDT From: Carmegil@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) As for Ravenloft the best part about it is that it is a demiplane you can throw charactrers into and out of it any way you wish. Two really good adventures for Ravenloft are "Felcovic's Cat" in dungeon mag. and "Ship of Horors" mod *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:08:40 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > > Ummm, suggestions, eh? Let me think... anyone ever wonder how the > world the D'Ambrevilles and the McGregors came from evolved without a > major magical presence? Principalities of Glantri states they were > fleeing religious persecution, so I always envisioned a world were > wizardly magic nearly died out (except for a few hidden cabals), and > clerical magic reigned, revolving around a monotheistic religion. > The old X2 implies that strongly. > They would have also advanced farther technologically, due to a lack > of convenient magic, making them a sort of techno-theocracy. > However, this point is (seemingly) incorrect: the area visited in X2 was pretty much midieval/early Renaissance technologically (like Mystara). > I have been thinking about using this idea in a future campaign, > if I DM any time soon. Have the Otherworld discover gates to Mystara, > and seeing all the rampant heathenism, decide they need to be shown > the light. So, they start sending some agents in to look around a > check things out. It is, of course, up to a band of intrepid heroes > to discover this plot before the Otherworld rolls in the battletanks. > This could work though just by projecting the Otherworld into a "future" of itself. > It is funny, now that I think about it. If I reall like something > about Mystara, at some point someone came along and warped in some > way into a form I didn't like. Rakasta, Lupins, Alfheim, Shadow Elves, > Alphatia. Makes me wonder if I really want to see Mystara resurrected. > Sometimes I myself wonder if it would be a good idea to have TSR/WotC get their mits back on it. After all, look how they (IMO) ruined the FR in recient years. But, then again, any "official" attention that keeps a world alive in people's minds, and then how you run it in your own campaign can be different. I.E. people are fairly familiar with the outlines of, say, the FR, so they adapt easily to a "variant" of the Realms, but (at least in my experience) they are less familiar with Mystara (on the whole), and thus somewhat reluctant/tenative (by comparison) to play in it. So any "official" attention would help in that respect. Then you just ignore the stuff/changes you don't like. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:31:21 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) >As for Ravenloft the best part about it is that it is a demiplane >you can throw charactrers into and out of it any way you wish. >Two really good adventures for Ravenloft are "Felcovic's Cat" in >dungeon mag. and "Ship of Horors" mod The Ship of Horrors, and several other RL modules are available online at www.tsr.com click on games, then AD&D, then Ravenloft, then Oops. This will show you the list of them. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:54:03 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > A very noble theory. The fact that one of the most powerful > countries of the world was ruled by a woman of immense magical power > never hurt, either. : ) There is also the fact that in most mystaran cultures Women == Men in rights and status. Unlike say Greyhawk where Women != Men. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > The boxed Champions of Mystara set includes descriptions of Sind, Yvaldom, > Ulimwngu, and rules for build-your-own Airship, as well as a detailed > description of the Ark itself and the major personalities. Yay. I was exited to pick up the box for one reason, because it dealt with the Serpent peninsula. But then I read somewhere that The Ark went further, almost to the Arm of the Immortals. I have all the cool maps (From someone's site) But I'd love to have the accomanying articles. Having a map of the ship was real useful. :P I use miniatures in my campaigns alla time. Max IV - Not a bad set overall tho. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:52:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara > > > Seems like a good idea. The mountains north of the Dymrak might be a good > area, either that or the area north west of Halag/Luln. > Oh! Another place for I6 would be the mountains/hills north of Slagovich/South of Hule, for thouse who want to move out of the "Known World" region and take their campaigns elsewhere, a "Barovia" hidden in a mountain valley in that area might be cool. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:02:29 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > From: James Ruhland > > They would have also advanced farther technologically, due to a lack > > of convenient magic, making them a sort of techno-theocracy. > > > However, this point is (seemingly) incorrect: the area visited in X2 was > pretty much midieval/early Renaissance technologically (like Mystara). I don't have X2, so I pretty much had to make up my own details. Besides, mine is more interesting. :P > Sometimes I myself wonder if it would be a good idea to have TSR/WotC get > their mits back on it. After all, look how they (IMO) ruined the FR in > recient years. Goes to show how opinions can vary. Although I don't own any Forgotten Realms material, a friend does and I borrow and read lots of it. He is a big Forgotten Realms freak, so he has just about everything for it. From what I have seen the trend lately has been an improvement. > But, then again, any "official" attention that keeps a world alive in > people's minds, and then how you run it in your own campaign can be > different. > So any "official" attention would help in that respect. Then you just > ignore the stuff/changes you don't like. For the most part, I would like to see Mystara reborn. I have reservations about it, but I would take the gameble. WotC seems to have been a good step for TSR, and it might show through to a new Mystara. Has there ever been an official word on a new Mystara? With Greyhawk just resurrected, it seems unlikely any time soon, but perhaps five years or so doen the line. Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #520 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 521 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) [MYSTARA] - Sir Alexius Dannelaran, D&D stats Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? [MYSTARA] - Possible Mystaran Origin of Barovia? Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:07:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) >Unfortunately, those were all Dragon Articles, and I suspect most of us >don't have the whole set. > I have the whole set, and I'm currently copying the entire series onto computer. Instead of doing it as the separate articles, however, I'm linking related topics into one file. So I have the nation descriptions of the Savage Coast all together, as well as the different classes and races described. I'm doing the same for letters that were answered that dealt directly with the rules. >Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? > Not nearly enough space in a boxed set. If they had stuffed the whole Princess Ark series into a boxed set, it could have cost nearly a hundred bucks, easily. This is HUGE stuff; the log itself is over 600 kb right now, and I'm not done yet. (Yes, I know most of it was done in the box set, but not all of it.) Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:11:52 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > > I don't have X2, so I pretty much had to make up my own details. > Besides, mine is more interesting. :P > Oh, well, there's no disputing that. 8-)~ > > Goes to show how opinions can vary. Although I don't own any > Forgotten Realms material, a friend does and I borrow and read lots > of it. He is a big Forgotten Realms freak, so he has just about > everything for it. From what I have seen the trend lately has been > an improvement. > Hmmmn. . .perhaps. I haven't bought all the most recient stuff. The last largish chunk of stuff for FR that I bought (just before & just after "The Great TSR Hiatus") had a strong whiff of "these NPCs are way more important than your PCs can ever *dream* of becoming, and you better stay out of their way while they do the important, heroic work. Go hussle Kobolds for Copper Pieces instead." I.E. all the "heroic" stuff was being done by du Urden, Elminster, the Symbul, etc., and the published materiel generally left PCs acting on the margins or in the anti-climaxes of important events (I.E. the "nuking of Zhentil Keep" was a result of NPC heroism, no PC involvement). > > For the most part, I would like to see Mystara reborn. I have > reservations about it, but I would take the gameble. WotC seems to > have been a good step for TSR, and it might show through to a new > Mystara. > You know, you might be right about that. I was dubious at best (A *CCG Co*? Buying MY TSR? Moving it OUT of Wisconsin! *apolectic shock*). But things *have* gone well (except in BR). > Has there ever been an official word on a new Mystara? With > Greyhawk just resurrected, it seems unlikely any time soon, but > perhaps five years or so doen the line. > >From what the latest word is their are no immediate plans to ressurect Mystara as such, but there's been encouragment on getting stuff into Dragon or Dungeon magazine (if you're a budding, would-be game writer. . . .now's your chance. . . .), and putting a Mystara "feel" into "generic" products (modules, accessories, etc.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:00:54 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) > From: Jenni A. M. Merrifield > Hey ho, there! It sure is /nice/ to see another assuredly female name on > this list. Hi! Nice to see I won't be alone. > You know, we took a survey here, oh, over a year or so ago, and > I was the only woman on the list at the time (at least the only one who > admitted it). That's too bad. Not really surprising, but unfortunate. >We'd had another for a while -- Jennifer Favia -- but she > had to drop off the list for various reasons. There's also at least one > woman on the MMB (TSR's "Mystara Message Board") who goes by the name of > "Rotipher", but I don't know if she lurks here as well, or not. I once tried to take a look at the boards on TSR's page, but after about 5 minutes I gave up. Yuck. Trying to navigate through them gave me a headache. There has to be a better solution. Besides, what is said there that doesn't get said here? > I do hope you stick around for a while -- I think these rough'n'ready > boys could do with a bit more of the feminine perspective in their midst! ;-) I guess I could take half the work load. Hopefully I won't get carried away with the power, though. I have a tendency to speak my mind. : ) > > IMO, D&D is far more fun than AD&D, and while I am willing to play > >either of them, on those rare occasions I DM, I always go with D&D, > >and always with Mystara. I think the only real advantage AD&D has is > >a better range of resources, such as a wider selection of creatures, > >spells, magic items and such. But I often convert these over; I own > >a fair bit of AD&D stuff bought soley for D&D. > > I'm similar, although, to be brutally honest, there are many things I > don't /really/ like in both oD&D and AD&D. Same here. I really like D&D, but it does have some things that bug me. Having played many other games, I look back and see that D&D really shows its age. But somehow that doesn't seem to matter much when we sit down to play and have a good time. As a result, I play 'house > rules D&D' (hD&D?) which is primarily based on the oD&D rules from the > Cyclopedia (I do like the simplicity), but with a smattering of AD&D > 'borrows' and a lot of 'personalized rules'. So, when are you going to post these? : ) For my own games I steal a few things from AD&D. Like the way thieves improve their skills. AD&D's point system is much better than a flat table. So I stole it. I tend to mix D&D weapon mastery with AD&D specialization, since I think fighters having multiple attacks adds to the gratification of playing them, making them feel different. I use the AD&D item saving throw tables as well. As I mentioned before I use a lot of AD&D spells, monsters, and magic items. The encyclopedias of wizard spells and magic items are good for this, since they don't require a D&D player to actually buy the rulebooks of AD&D. I have a big notebook of conversion notes I jot down for an item or spell when I hand them out. > For example, I've always had problems with the magic system in either > version of D&D. It just doesn't feel like the way I expect 'fantasy magic' > to work -- you know how in novels mages and/or holy men can cast whatever > spell/miracle they want, whenever they want, except for maybe how 'tired' > they are because of how many spells and of what 'complication' they have > already cast. Agreed. I never did like the memorization idea. I let spellcasters cas whatever spells they know, going by the limits of the standard tables. Not too overpowering. > So, I've started playing my campaigns with a spell-point > system, and it seems to be working out for us so far. Notably, this system > is primarily based on a system our estemed List Owner, Leroy, uses for his > AD&D games, but with significant modifications to 'fit it into' oD&D and > Mystara. (I'm still working the kinks out, but will definitly pass the > details along to the list when I'm done. :-) Sounds interesting. I have seen many attempts at spell point systems for AD&D and D&D, but none of them seemed to really work. I look forward to seeing it. By the way, what exactly is a "List Owner?" > I've never played Ravenloft, but I've looked at some of the Modules and > they did seem particularily intriguing. I've heard a lot of female RPG'ers > also tend to gravitate towards the White Wolf games like Vampyre and > such... From my experience I can say this is very true. I think Vampire has captured more of us since its inception than all other games combined, or at least close. I have meet a large number of women who play Vampire, and to a lesser degree, some of the other White Wolf games, but have never played any other game. Most, though, show little interest in trying anything else. : ( > I wonder what the connection to 'Gothic' is for women? Part of it is the large number of women in the Goth scene, and while not all, or even a majority of Goths play Vampire, many of them do. Most eventually seem to gravite towards live action in the end, though. I think part of what draw swomen to the scene is the overall equality, and sometimes even dominance women can have there. Unlike, say, the heavy metal scene, rap scene, or even the "alternative" scene. That and it is women that made Anne Rice a huge name, and many look to Vampire for the same kind of setting. I am a White Wolf fan, and have been known to hang out in the Goth scene, but I tend to dislike gaming with them. After four hours of in-character acting I just want ot start busting some heads! > Actually, on the topic of Ravenloft, /MY/ Mystara is so totally non-canon > (what with entire AD&D modules plunked into Darokin and some D&D modules > moved from wherever they're "supposed to be" to wherever I "need them to > be") Nothing wrong with that! There are two of the Gazetteers I don't even own simply because I didn't like them. I just made the areas they covered wilderness. I also ignbore the Wrath adventure and its repurcussions. > I've been thinking about trying out a Ravenloft module or two. Does > anyone have any recommendations about which Ravenloft's are /really//good/ > adventures, and that might not require too much re-working to fit into > place in Mystara? I don't own any Ravenloft stuff, but off the top of my head I would say House of Strahd would work, as others have since mentioned on the list. Ship of Horrors is good, and I have ran that in a Mystara campaign. It fits quite easily. > >The least favorite, from my experience, is Greyhawk. A friend of mine > >once said, "If I hadn't already known the man sold shoes and insurance, > >I could of deduced it from reading his Greyhawk stuff." > > Make of that what you will. > > Hah. That comment about Greyhawk is funny. B-D It always made me chuckle. The guy isn't much more interesting in person. : ) > > How much D&D discussion does this list see? I love new ideas, as > >long as they are in the "spirit" of D&D (i.e. simple and fun). > > Well, as someone else suggested, if you have an oD&D idea or comment > you'd like to have discussed, try posting a message to the list about it > and it may spark some interest. I will have to find something D&D-related to send. I have some of my own house-rules, but they are all hand-scrawled. > In any case, it's nice to welcome another member of the 'fairer' sex to > the MML. I hope you enjoy it here as much as I have over the past. :-) I expect to stick around for the time being. So far things have been interesting. I might even have something interesting to say. :) Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:26:33 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) >Unfortunately, those were all Dragon Articles, and I suspect most of us >don't have the whole set. Yeah. Some of the articles are available for download on DRAGON's webpage, and I recently scanned the Orc's of the Dark Jungle article, so it should be up soon. But there are still gaps. >Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? You mean as opposed to Champions of Mystara? I thought that box was excellent, it just didn't detail as much area as would have been nice. My impression was that if Mystara had stayed in OD&D, the next boxed set would have been a Savage Coast set, and Haldemar's stories were a way of pre-selling the new product. Unfortunately, the decision was made to switch formats, so WotI was the next (and last) box. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:25:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! > > spell/miracle they want, whenever they want, except for maybe how > 'tired' > > they are because of how many spells and of what 'complication' they > have > > already cast. > > Agreed. I never did like the memorization idea. I let spellcasters > cas whatever spells they know, going by the limits of the standard > tables. Not too overpowering. > Gah! I have to disagree. I guess it depends in no small part on the "power level" of your campaign. I.E. if the spellcasters are reasonably low level (say, 7th or less), then giving them this advantage isn't too big a deal. However, as spellcasters get more powerful in general, the fact that they have to limit themselves to a certain selection of the (probably vast) number of spells that they know (I.E. either in their Spellbook, or that their god/Immortal will let them cast) is one of the few limits on their power. Especially given the humongous # of spells available to folks these days. > > Sounds interesting. I have seen many attempts at spell point > systems for AD&D and D&D, but none of them seemed to really work. > I look forward to seeing it. > By the way, what exactly is a "List Owner?" > The friendly minder of this bedlam; I.E. the guy that makes sure we don't get out of hand. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:50:13 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) >Why, you think he's in line for Immortality? There's no indication that >Hosadus ever made it, and he actually did things. This comes directly from X10, which states that the Master is on the way. I believe it's also mentioned somewhere else. >His followers? So everyone suddenly forgets Loki? The PWAs were careful to call Hule a Hagiarchy--a nation ruled by "holy men." The holy men of Hule are not necessarily clerics. Loki's control of Hule is through the master, not through any particular loyalty of the people to him. Since the Master would still be indebted to Loki for centuries, I doubt that Loki would mind letting him have Hule. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:54:14 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > though. I think part of what draw swomen to the scene is the overall > equality, and sometimes even dominance women can have there. Unlike, And the whole romance angle of the vampire scene. Victorian look/modern sexuality. Perfect combination. Also: Which two Gaz's didn't you like? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:55:35 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Patrick Sullivan wrote: > formats, so WotI was the next (and last) box. WoTI was last? Hmm. I bought Champions last. At least I know now that D&D went out with a bigger bang :) Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:59:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sir Alexius Dannelaran, D&D stats These are the statistics for Alexius, according to the Rules Cyclopedia. Class: Fighter Alignment: Lawful Level: 32 ABILITIES STR 16 (+2 H,D,OD) INT 13 (+1 Language/Skill) WIS 12 DEX 14 (+1 MAR, -1 AC) CON 16 (+2 HP/Level) CHA 15 (+1 Reactions) SAVING THROWS 3 Poison/Death Ray 3 Magic Wands 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 2 Dragon Breath 3 Rod/Staff/Spell Hit Points: 118 Armor Class: -6 THAC0: 2 WEAPON MASTERY Sword (Master) Dagger (Skilled) Lance (Expert) Mace GENERAL SKILLS Alertness (D) Endurance (C) Knowledge of Karamekian Society (I) Knowledge of Church of Karameikos/Order of the Griffon (I) Leadership+1 (Ch+1) Military Tactics+2 (I+2) Riding (Horse) (D) Survival (Forest) (I) Survival (Mountain/Hill) (I) MAGICAL ITEMS Suit Armor +3 Shield +2 Sword +3, +5 vs. Dragonkind (detect dragon ability) Dagger +2 Ring of Fire Resistance Several Scrolls and Potions, of course Height: 5'11" Weight: 170 lbs. Age: 36 Hair: Dark Brown Eyes: Brown *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:26:03 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? >> Thyatis could easily establish close relationships with some of the >baronies >> and city-states: military protection in exchange for red steel. Well. It does say that the Ispan colonists were virtually booted out of Thyatis (religous reasons, IIRC). It does say that Narvaez is quite pro-Thyatian, tho... One thing that puzzled me somewhat. During WotI Narvaez got involved in a civil war (again, religious reasons) which ended up with the entire Savage Baronies at war. I always figured that this would be most likely due to followers of Vanya (Fellowship of the Star) being at odds with Ixion worshippers, ending up with Vanya's lot being turfed out. In canon, however, this doesnt seem to have been the case - as in 1012 both Vanya and Ixion priests can be found there. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:40:37 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Possible Mystaran Origin of Barovia? In a message dated 98-07-18 14:41:28 EDT, James Ruhland wrote: << I6 would, IMHO, fit perfectly into one of the more "secluded"/infrequented areas of Karameikos (especially if you're playing in circa 1000 AC, before the place got more populated & opened up). The "common folk" are a rough facimile of Traldarans (a Slavo-Transylvanian feel* to names, etc.) *Now, before people point out that the folk of Transylvania are a mix of Valachians & Magyars, I know that. >> Has anyone ever considered that Ravenloft's Barovia might actually be FROM Mystara? Let's look at the timeline... Ravenloft Timeline Year 1 = "Barovia Founded" - Traladara was a land of many city-states and petty kingdoms; Barovia would likely have been a northern state, found in the shadow of the Black Peak Mountains Year 320 = "Tergs Invade" - This enemy was never truly developed, as far as I am aware; even Strahd himself refuses to speak of them. Perhaps they were Orcs from the Black Peaks? Strahd begins to battle the Tergs the following year... Year 347 = "Tergs Defeated" - It took Strahd 27 years to defeat the Tergs. So presumably they had some support from elsewhere, or Strahd's forces were small and weak by comparison; apparently, Strahd had little help from elsewhere. Year 351 = "Formation of the Demiplane of Dread" - The Mists engulf Barovia. Now, lets look at Mystaran history to see what developments might fit this timeframe... A barbarian or beastmen group invades northern Traladara and holds a portion of it for nearly thirty years; the region is moderately medieval in level of society and technology. Hmmm... When you look at the activity in the 6th century AC, the humanoids of the Broken Lands were highly active under the leadership of Big Chief Sitting Drool (the Third Great Horde was founded in 500 AC and broke up in 527 AC). Presumably, there were at least several major outmigrations in the century thereafter (raiding parties, disenfranchised hordes, etc.) Let us say that ~ 565 AC a moderate sized force with big ambitions plowed through Darokin to the Cruth Mountains, where they joined with their local cousins. They then took to raiding the Shires and Traladara for a decade, until they invaded the small Barony of Barovia in 570 AC (570 AC = Year 320, Barovia having been founded in 250 AC). Strahd began his battle against the Tergs (an ancient Barovian word for Orc, perhaps) and pushed them out of his homeland after a long battle (the Tergs had support from their cousins in the Cruth Mountains, and Strahd had little help from other, local Barons as they were busy defending their own lands). Then Barovia is swallowed by the mists of Ravenloft in 601 AC, and fades from the memories and myths of the Traladarans... That would place the current incarnation of Ravenloft at Year 750, which would equal 1000 AC in Mystara (provided the time-space continuum is constant between the two places, which it might well not be; it could well be that the Year 750 is equal to 1015 AC, due to time drift). Or, for an alternate theory in which the Tergs are Ethengarians, and the current incarnations of Ravenloft and Mystara are in the current (1015 AC = Year 750) time-frame, read on... When you look at the activity in the late 6th century AC, the Ethengars were quite active; they attempted a major invasion of the Flaemish lands in 585 AC Presumably, there were at least several other major and minor invasions and outmigrations in the century thereafter (another Great Khan ruled by no later than 645 AC, thus raiding parties, disenfranchised hordes, etc. were all possible in the decades preceeding) Let us say that ~ 580 AC a moderate sized force with big ambitions plowed through Darokin into Traladara, where they invaded the small Barony of Barovia in 585 AC (585 AC = Year 320; Barovia having been founded in 265 AC). Strahd began his battle against the Tergs (the Barovian corruption of the name of the Ethengarian Horde, the Terkits) and pushed them out of his homeland after a long battle. Then Barovia is swallowed by the mists of Ravenloft in 616 AC, and fades from the memories and myths of the Traladarans... forgotten, until 720 AC, when a certain Count Gorevitch- Woszlany of the County of Rymskigrad (where descendants of the few remaining Barovianshad settled) hears of Strahd's tale and becomes even more curious when he discovers an ancient journal... This version would also place the current incarnation of Ravenloft at Year 750, which would equal 1015 AC in Mystara (eliminating any need for time-shift between the two places). Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:39:27 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! >Gah! I have to disagree. > I guess it depends in no small part on the "power level" of your campaign. >I.E. if the spellcasters are reasonably low level (say, 7th or less), then >giving them this advantage isn't too big a deal. > However, as spellcasters get more powerful in general, the fact that they >have to limit themselves to a certain selection of the (probably vast) >number of spells that they know (I.E. either in their Spellbook, or that >their god/Immortal will let them cast) is one of the few limits on their >power. Especially given the humongous # of spells available to folks these >days. Concerning spell memorisation... Well, I think mages are already by far and away the most powerful class in the game. Under OD+D rules they may not get as much choice for spells, but the spells they do get are typically more powerful than the AD+D versions (check out the Magic Missile difference! And of course the 20d6 D+D fireballs...). Memorisation makes the mages life a little harder. Besides, it makes the mages job more tactical - i find the debates of "what shall i memorise?" before every adventure starts to be quite amusing. And I like tactics - better exercise the braincells than the dice, after all... OTOH - Ive always felt that clerics are a pretty hard done by class (seems TSR agrees as well, because clerics have been amped in leaps and bounds since D+D. Of course, they havnt amped thieves, but ah well :() Also the concept of memorisation seems odd for the way clerics cast their spells. Mages memorising spells I understand and even consider logical, but priests? IMC (and, for that matter, all the other campaigns around here) priests dont have to memorise their spells. They use the same number per day (5 level 1, 4 level 2 etc. etc.) but dont have to memorise - they can pick exactly WHICH 1st level spell they want to cast when they want it. As an aside - Spells and Magic (an infamous Black Book which I dont generally agree with) has alternative spellcasting rules. One of the ideas in there is the Channelling Wizard, a wiz who doesnt have to memorise spells, instead shaping the mana (spell points) as he wishes. IMC only those of Flaemish and Alphatian blood can do this - seems appropriate, given that their race is literally saturated with magic... The system is actually balanced - mana can be used to memorise spells just like normal, but the mage can choose to have free, undedicated mana to shape spells at will (but it costs more spell points to cast a spell this way). In addition, the mage tires when casting spells - if he casts, say, 4 spells in a row he is likely to be on the floor. Advantages and disadvantages... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:58:23 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Your theory would be fine except that it is the other way around. Alphatia started out as the good guy. At 08:39 AM 7/18/98 EDT, Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >I think there is a logical explanation as to why Alphatia's reputation has >improved, especially at the cost of that of other nations. I call it the >"Haldemar effect", after the hero of the "Princess Ark" series. While >Haldemar was an interesting and mostly decent-minded character, >I think it had the effect of influencing other authors and designers to >depict Alphatia itself in a more favorable light and its enemies in a less >favorable light. > >The main victim of this shift was the "Heldannic Freeholds" -- but that >name was dropped once it became known that the Heldanners were >controlled by the evil Hattians. Of course, there were fewer complaints >about this shift because (a) few details about the place had been >published, and (b) at the time of the shift the majority of the population >were depicted as victims of Hattian oppression. But by now most of >you have forgotten about the "original" Heldanners, right? Now when >anyone mentions "Heldanner", all you think of is those fanatical >Clerics of Vanya. > >As for Thyatis, the main feature that seems to demand an explanation >is the way that Ochalea and the Pearl Islands seceded after a thousand >years as full citizens of the Thyatian Empire. Surely, if they felt that >they were in military danger from Alphatia (although that is never even >hinted at) but did not want to betray Thyatis any more than necessary, >the logical thing to do would have been to surrender to Thyatis. That >way, they could expect reasonably fair treatment regardless of who won. >And that is what they probably did during the earlier Alphatian Spike >Assault about fifty years earlier. > >But there was something different going on during WotI -- the Immortals >were stirring up their people to take sides in the feud between two groups >of Immortals, and somehow Ilsundal had gained enough influence in >those lands that he persuaded them to declare independence. The only >conclusion we can draw is that the inhabitants of these two lands (listed >under "conquered lands" even in the Thyatian book of DotE) never >considered themselves to be part of Thyatis, even after a thousand years >-- otherwise Korotiku, at least, would have been able to keep the Pearl >Islands loyal. > >But I think what we are seeing in the decline of Thyatis is a very fast >transformation of Thyatis from "Rome" to "Byzantium". The original >Roman Empire controlled most of the Mediterranean by force -- and >most of the subjects of that empire did not regard themselves as >Romans. However, after the fall of Rome, the failure of efforts by >Justinian and others to reconquer the West (somewhat reflected in >the PWA wars), and the lost of the Middle East and North Africa to >the Moslems, the remaining core of the Eastern Empire was much >more stable and unified (the remaining people were mostly of >Greco-Roman culture) and indeed lasted for over a thousand years >after the fall of the Western Empire. > >So if that analogy holds up, then it becomes clear that the recovery >of Thyatis will begin only when its wars end -- but then it will be able >to regain much of its prestige rather than its power. >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:56:54 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) > Actually, on the topic of Ravenloft, /MY/ Mystara is so totally non-canon >(what with entire AD&D modules plunked into Darokin and some D&D modules >moved from wherever they're "supposed to be" to wherever I "need them to >be") I've been thinking about trying out a Ravenloft module or two. Does >anyone have any recommendations about which Ravenloft's are /really//good/ >adventures, and that might not require too much re-working to fit into >place in Mystara? Ive run quite a few RL adventures in Mystara - because Im quite a big Ravenloft fan, and I think the RL modules are probably the best written ones that TSR produces - more emphasis on storyline and characters than on wandering around huge labyrinths (yawn) and killing monsters. Anyway... Castles Forlorn. A cool adventure! (And a Massive castle map, too!). I ran this with a few tweaks as Brannart McGregors castle. The history of Tristen ApBlanc (the Lord) and Brannart McGregor seem fairly similar. Its a time travel romp, too - the PCs travel to the castle in three different time frames (only one of which is in Ravenloft) so, subsituting Mystara for Ravenloft and Laterre for the "original resting place", i was away! It does take some work to convert, though. Worth it, IMHO. The Nightmare Lands. This one apparently had mixed response from the market, but I loved it. I ran it in Ravenloft, but it would be easily altered to Mystara. Basically the PCs bump into some Nightmare creatures while on the way to Dr Illhousen, psychiatrist and enemy of the Nightmare Court. Substitute Illhousen for a Glantrian Dream Mage, whose experiments have let something *terrible* escape the Dimension of Nightmares. warping the lands of some secluded area near Glantri (Voila! The Nightmare Lands!). Also has cool rules on dreams and dreamscapes, which I reckon anyone who likes dream mages (Oneiromancers, according to an old Dragon :) should have. I can't remember the name, but the one set in Markovia which is a rip off of the Isle of Dr Moreau is cool. This could be set on any little tropical island (the Thanegioth Archipelago) - the adventure doesnt really have any connection with Ravenloft, so it could be added to Mystara just about anywhere. Castle Ravenloft itself, of course, could be Prince Morphails castle with little modification. Or perhaps one of the margraves of the Slagovich area? Maybe a "lost valley" where 300 years ago a City State once stood... (I think someone already had that idea...) One of the RL adventures I have played was set in Richemulot (ie France) and it was all about wererats trying to take over the city. That could be put into Nouvelle Averoigne without any effort (more lycanthropic stuff). Besides, it has Muscatel the Swashbuckling Mouse in it (And I used to like Reepicheep when I was a kid). Most Ravenloft adventures are Hammer film ripoffs, anyway. This means that Leminster could substitute for Victorian London and your away for a lot of city based RL stuff... A fair few seem to have the "manor house on the moor" type setting (apparently Hammer used Dartmoor IRL, which is next to where I live! - also in American Werewolf in London...) which could be a little Thyatian manor in the wilds of Karameikos... Sorry I couldnt remember the names of most of the adventures... But I think RL is very cool, so I had to respond! Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #521 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 522 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is thequestion! Re: [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:06:55 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > Ummm, suggestions, eh? Let me think... anyone ever wonder how the >world the D'Ambrevilles and the McGregors came from evolved without a >major magical presence? Principalities of Glantri states they were >fleeing religious persecution, so I always envisioned a world were >wizardly magic nearly died out (except for a few hidden cabals), and >clerical magic reigned, revolving around a monotheistic religion. >They would have also advanced farther technologically, due to a lack >of convenient magic, making them a sort of techno-theocracy. I know this is strictly non canon, but I always reckoned that Laterre = Earth. But magical earth (ie the Masque of the Red Death / Historical Reference AD+D Earth). Checking out A Mighty Fortress (the AD+D supplement for games set in 16th - 17th century Europe) theres quite a bit on the persecution of mages, the Inquisition and that sort of thing... Besides, I reckon its cool that they are from Earth. > I never did really go for the Red Steel setting. At least they >toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta from the Princess Ark >thing. I love the Rakasta, but prefer them nice and occidental. I >also like them as one species, not as the broad name for humanoid cats >that was put forward by Bruce Heard in Dragon. Same with Lupins. No way!!! Red Steel rules! (But then, I do like cheesy swashbuckler films, so it figures.) And no disrespect to the Japanese, but having the rakasta as English toffs is far cooler. Besides, they havnt got any England clone countries in any TSR world bar Bellayne :( (And what a clone! A bit overboard though - Sir Jasper Cockerfield indeed :) Reminds me of the cartoon version of Around the World in Eighty Days, where Fogg was a cartoon lion... Also the idea of calling them "moggies" is very funny. > It is funny, now that I think about it. If I reall like something >about Mystara, at some point someone came along and warped in some >way into a form I didn't like. Rakasta, Lupins, Alfheim, Shadow Elves, >Alphatia. Makes me wonder if I really want to see Mystara resurrected. >:( Now now. Thats negative - you dont want TSR to rerelease Mystara in case they make a hash of it? Whats the worst that can happen - it gets canned again and we go on as we did before... :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:10:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) - -- > I am a White Wolf fan, and have been known to hang out in the >Goth scene, but I tend to dislike gaming with them. After four >hours of in-character acting I just want ot start busting some heads! Phew! Whenever I play Vampire I usually end up wishing to grab a d20 and make a few hit rolls as well. Perhaps I am not a Philestine after all. Hel is on my side. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:28:10 -0700 From: "James D. Skee" Subject: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just got back from my local mall (Whittwood Mall in Whittier, CA) and decided to take a visit to the KayBee Toy store there. Couldn't believe what I saw, Dawn of the Emperors for $12, plus the Castle of Amber AD&D for $6, Karamekieos for $6, tons of Dragon Dice dice game boxes going for $4 each, and a few AD&D accessories like the Priest Players kit (the plastic box with miniatures, etc) for $6 and Red Steel for $6; _all_ unopened in shrinkwrap! They had _plenty_ of each, I counted at least 12 DotE boxes, all brand new _unopened_, which is a shock if you are used to seeing RPG stuff at places like KayBee or Toys R Us in their opened, dogeared norm. Not sure about other KayBee's but if you are in Whittier CA or close by, check it out. - - -- James D. Skee - spwalker@gte.net PGP Public Key available upon request - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNbEhj4MTxxTYKt0CEQLcFgCg9H0GHdHZ6FfxSNQKzvOdxjmWl/wAniLT ONIY6QxfVNYKMC4ttnU4IJKH =BZ+8 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:41:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee > > Just got back from my local mall (Whittwood Mall in Whittier, CA) and > decided to take a visit to the KayBee Toy store there. > You can often (well, not *often*, but sometimes) find unexpected treasures in the strangest places. In a greeting card store one year I found a new "Dieties and Demigods" book: the "good" one (you know, the one with Melnebone & Ctullhu pantheons), for the base price (12 dollars, IIRC). Someone had reciently "bogarted" my own copy, so this was quite a find. I'm not sure anymore what you'd have to pay to get one through "usual" sources (game shops selling OOP junk), but last I looked it was over $200. I did the "dance of joy". Crazy thing was (and no one will believe me, but I know it was true), this was the *only* RPG item they had. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:04 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 13:38:55 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > Does > anyone have any recommendations about which Ravenloft's are /really//good/ > adventures, and that might not require too much re-working to fit into > place in Mystara? I see Ravenloft and Mystara as a good fit -- they are both places where detecting for good or evil alignment should fail, albeit for different reasons - -- whereas Ravenloft is so permeated with evil that everything there seems evil even if it isn't, Mystara is simply set up so that "good" and "evil" have no special auras that can be detected or manipulated by magic. Certainly those "powers checks" are far less appropriate for Mystara than for Ravenloft. But as for evaluating particular modules -- I suspect that a lot depends on the importance of a particular' land's dark lord to the adventure. Each domain of Ravenloft is the prison of some powerful evil being -- but Mystara most certainly is not. But certainly any adventure that does not involve a dark lord or in which the dark lord can be redefined in more "normal" fantasy terms should work on Mystara -- especially if you can find a Mystaran culture similar to that of the setting of your module. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? In a message dated 98-07-18 13:57:33 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > I agree with you on that, especially the former. However, on the latter, > there is a practical problem: we can't have every nation turning into > friends, or it might make for a boring gameworld. Or at least a less > geopolitically exciting one. No, but it might be time to go from an era of "hot" warfare to one of "cold" warfare. Surely by AC 1020 most nations of the Known World will be pretty well "fought out". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:00 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) In a message dated 98-07-18 11:01:14 EDT, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes: > Yes GM perogative is always applicable, but all i did was give an idea > of the sort of numbers that could become a mage in population. You know > maximum limits. I don`t think 85,000 mages in 1,000,000 is really > workable. do you? No, that is too low -- at least for places like Glantri and Alphatia. But there are several factors that determine whether a character becomes a Mage: 1) Raw talent. Minimal requirement is intelligence 9+ and being of a race for which the Mage class is possible. For NPCs and for PCs who did not begin their career as Wizards, one possible formula could be as follows: Elf: 20% per point of intelligence above 8 (automatic at Int 13+). If using D&D rules, character automatically has talent. Half-Elf: 15% per point of intelligence above 8 (automatic at Int 16+). If using D&D rules, chance is 20% per point of intelligence above 8. Human: About 5% per point of intelligence above 8 regardless of rule set used, with Alphatians having a slightly higher chance. The exact formula should be set so as to give 10% of all humans and 20% of all Alphatians the necessary talent, assuming a normal distribution of intelligence over the range 3-18. 2) Opportunity: Even if a character has the talent for magic, he will not become a Mage if there is no place where he can learn the craft. 3) Interest: Even if the character has both the talent and the opportunity to learn magic, he will not do so if he is more interested in pursuing some other career. I suspect that the second two factors limit the number of Mages far more than the first one does -- the number of people who have the talent for magic is generally known only in magocracies, where everyone has the opportunity and most have the interest in becoming Mages. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" In a message dated 98-07-18 15:06:11 EDT, eand@WPI.EDU writes: > I was exited to pick up the box for one reason, because it dealt with the > Serpent peninsula. But then I read somewhere that The Ark went further, > almost to the Arm of the Immortals. I have all the cool maps (From > someone's site) But I'd love to have the accomanying articles. No, the Princess Ark never did reach the Arm of the Immortals -- that boxed set contains the end of the series. However, later "Known World Grimoire" articles did describe other parts of Mystara without reference to Haldemar and his crew. The Arm of the Immortals was covered in issue #200. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:09 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! In a message dated 98-07-18 15:13:51 EDT, ladyhela@hotmail.com writes: > (Yes, yes, I know Wrath tried to tell us that the Otherworld is > now known as the "Dimension of Myth", but that never really worked for > me). I have some ideas about the "Dimension of Myth" that might make you reconsider it as the origin of the d'Ambrevilles and the McGregors. I would postulate that Laterre (the main world of this Dimension) is not only the original world of those two Glantrian peoples but the setting of Masque of the Red Death and the fantasy versions of the "HR" series. One feature of this world would seem to be that its temporal relationship with other Dimensions is not fixed -- thus you could interact with nearly any of its historical eras depending on which gate you use to access it. Your "Otherworld" could be the far future of Laterre -- although its theocracy clearly would not be continuous with the one that persecuted the d'Ambrevilles. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:06 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! In a message dated 98-07-18 16:42:36 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > However, as spellcasters get more powerful in general, the fact that they > have to limit themselves to a certain selection of the (probably vast) > number of spells that they know (I.E. either in their Spellbook, or that > their god/Immortal will let them cast) is one of the few limits on their > power. Especially given the humongous # of spells available to folks these > days. A lot depends on how many spells a character can cast before becoming exhausted -- to work well that number should (for high level casters, at least) be much lower than the number of spells possible under the standard system. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:02 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 13:38:55 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > I think this 'greyness' is the true /essence/ of Mystara and could very > well explain a lot about the type of people who love to play within the > borders of its countries. (Hmm, I wonder if that fact could be manipulated > into something useful for the "SaveMystara" campaign. How could "shades of > grey" be positively promoted as something Unique about Mystara, without > sounding wishy-washy?) We could steal that quote from G'Kar on B5: "Nobody here is exactly what he appears." (I may be slightly off as I am quoting from memory.) That idea of "Thyatian treachery" could be applied to almost the entire game world -- but it should cut both ways. For every "good guy" who betrays the party, there should be a "bad guy" who could turn out to be a true friend if given a chance. But Mystara is anything but wishy-washy. People adhere very strongly to their philosophical beliefs -- it just happens that these philosophies are far more complex than "be good" or "be evil". If we call the good guys "white hats" and the bad guys "black hats", most Mystarans will not be "white hats", "black hats", or even "gray hats" -- they will be "red hats", "blue hats", and so forth -- definitely neither black nor white, but certainly not a wishy-washy gray either. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) In a message dated 98-07-18 14:28:50 EDT, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > But again what about Loki. I doubt he'd give up on Hule just because the > Master achieves immortality. Since the Master would achieve Immortality through the patronage of Loki, his followers would effectively be Loki's followers as well. And what would be a better policy for two Immortals of Lies than to scatter their followers all over the Known World while telling those followers that their dispersal was the fault of Immortal foes of Loki? If, for example, they can persuade people to join the cult in order to stop the sinister plots of the "evil" Odin or Korotiku, that would be a major coup for both of them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:35:07 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 15:27:25 EDT, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: > >Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? > > > Not nearly enough space in a boxed set. If they had stuffed the whole > Princess Ark series into a boxed set, it could have cost nearly a hundred > bucks, easily. This is HUGE stuff; the log itself is over 600 kb right now, > and I'm not done yet. (Yes, I know most of it was done in the box set, but > not all of it.) How big is it if you leave out the maps and narrative (they are covered pretty well elsewhere, after all) and just include the character oriented rules? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:33:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation Discussing the Savage Coast got me to thinking... Everyone who likes the Savage Coast and swashbuckling in general: SEE!! THE!! MASK!! OF!! ZORRO!!! Fantastic swashbuckling, the best since Errol Flynn's Robin Hood. Great idea for the Savage Coast, too; there are dozens of really cool plot ideas in this movie. No, there's no magic. No, there's no dragons or other cool monsters. But there is tons of action, romance, gold, acrobatics, comedy, and all the other things that make a really good movie. Once again, let me make my point clear... SEE!! THE!! MASK!! OF!! ZORRO!!! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:38:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) >How big is it if you leave out the maps and narrative (they are covered >pretty well elsewhere, after all) and just include the character oriented >rules? So far, it's over 400 K, in the Wordpad format. I'm currently on Dragon #186, so I've still got a ways to go. But I'm getting there. Right now, the Princess Ark is in Wallara, and Haldemar just got back from being a frilly lizard (I hate it when that happens). Next stop...the phanatons. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:54:06 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) In a message dated 98-07-18 18:08:56 EDT, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: > Your theory would be fine except that it is the other way around. Alphatia > started out as the good guy. It most certainly did not! Several of the early gazetteers have sinister Alphatians in them, such as General Halzunthram and Edrecort (in Alfheim). Ylaruam, Glantri, and Minrothad all had bad memories of past Alphatian invasions. CM1 "Test of the Warlords" suggests that the players should be more sympathetic to Alphatia to Thyatis but gives no serious reason why they should favor Alphatia -- and later Norwold modules seem to suggest that Norwold would be better off if it could hold both empires at bay. With the exception of the ineffectual Ericall, I would challenge anybody to name an Alphatian who was depicted as a "good guy" prior to the start of the Princess Ark series. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:11:42 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is the question! At 03:25 PM 7/18/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Gah! I have to disagree. > I guess it depends in no small part on the "power level" of your >campaign. I.E. if the spellcasters are reasonably low level (say, 7th or >less), then giving them this advantage isn't too big a deal. > However, as spellcasters get more powerful in general, the fact that >they have to limit themselves to a certain selection of the (probably vast) >number of spells that they know (I.E. either in their Spellbook, or that >their god/Immortal will let them cast) is one of the few limits on their >power. Especially given the humongous # of spells available to folks these >days. To be honest, that was one of the reasons why I'd never gone to a spell point system in the past. But then I saw Leroy's "Paths and Points" system and I was hooked. :-) The thing that I liked about his system is that it combines the idea of a Point system with a 'Spell Path' system, which enforces some limitation on what the caster has available. Thus, the 'tactician' aspect of Mage spell casting is still there. The way the Paths basically work is that every spell belongs to one or more 'Paths' and mages can only 'attune' themselves to a specific number of Paths at any one time. This number does go up as time goes on, but it is generally much less than the number of Paths that the Mage can actually learn. Another restriction is that, as well as knowing and attuning to a path, the Mage can only cast spells on that path which he has access to (i.e., he has learned, researched, etc.) The end result is that a Mage can cast any spell he knows on any path he's attuned to, assuming he has the spell points required. Now, I must also mention that there were elements of Leroy's system that didn't jive with me 100% -- frequently for 'over-powered' reasons, so the version I've worked up adds a few things here and there to make some things a bit more difficult than Leroy does. Like in Leroy's version, attunement lasts until you change your attunement to another path, and spell points come back with a full nights sleep (only half come back if sleep is interrupted). In my version, the attunement thing is the same, and the 'potential' for used points comes back with sleep BUT in order to actually be able to 'realize' the points re-gained through sleep, the Mage must spend time studying the basic knowledge he has about the paths he knows (sort of like making sure you keep up on your Calculus homework...) I added this to my version because, in the existing D&D magic system, once you cast a spell there is a memorizationg 'time commitment' involved in re-gaining it (or selecting another). I think that's an important 'game balancing' restriction on magic casting, so I modified the system to re-introduce the time requirement. Leroy also has a modified 'spell point' system for Clerics which essentially gives Clerics access to any spell their Immortal/God would normally grant them, assuming that they are in 'good standing' and they have the available resources (i.e. points). I introduced a variation of that in my campaign too, just to keep Clerics and Mages on an even keel power-wise. Other changes I've made are to use oD&D spells instead of AD&D spells from as many sources as I could find, and developing a method of dividing paths into 'sub paths' which would be 'normally available' to certain magic-casting classes (ie., the Elves of Alfheim have a different spell table than regular mages do, so do Shadow Elves. And then there are the sub-classes like Minrothad Merchant princes, etc.). The system allows any mage-based character to cast any spell IF HE FINDS OUT ABOUT IT, but restricts initial knowledge of what spells exist to those from the appropriate locations. If you're interested in reading up about Leroy's original system, just visit his home page (http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html) and click on the "Paths and Points" link (Mages) or "Miracles of Faith" link (Clerics). There's a bit more to my 'variation' on the system, but rather than get into it piece-meil now, I'll be sharing the whole thing (along with a few 'new' oD&D based spells I've come up with) with the list in the future. Keep an eye out for it. ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:21:27 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! - ----- >I have some ideas about the "Dimension of Myth" that might make you >reconsider it as the origin of the d'Ambrevilles and the McGregors. I >would postulate that Laterre (the main world of this Dimension) is not >only the original world of those two Glantrian peoples but the setting >of Masque of the Red Death and the fantasy versions of the "HR" >series. Wow! Are you a psionicist? Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:04:04 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad <> Remember, they still are hurting a little from WotI, also all out war would invite Sind to invade. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:35:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To Memorize, or not to Memorize. That is thequestion! Thanks for the detailed info. Sounds interesting & I'll check it out. > If you're interested in reading up about Leroy's original system, just > visit his home page > (http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html) and click > on the "Paths and Points" link (Mages) or "Miracles of Faith" link (Clerics). > > There's a bit more to my 'variation' on the system, but rather than get > into it piece-meil now, I'll be sharing the whole thing (along with a few > 'new' oD&D based spells I've come up with) with the list in the future. > Keep an eye out for it. ;-) > > Jenni > > -- > Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs > strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ > <------------------------------------------------------------------> > God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. > Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" > And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:35:41 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation >Everyone who likes the Savage Coast and swashbuckling in general: > >SEE!! THE!! MASK!! OF!! ZORRO!!! I just got home from the movie, and I was planning on telling the list the same thing! It would fit especially well if your campaign is involved in the politics of Almarron, IMO, or if you plan to play through . But at any rate, GO SEE IT! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:42:03 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? > Still, asside from my grim desire to see Tarmokikas back within Thyatis, As I recall it was Thyatis that took over Tel Akbir and Biazzan... am I remembering wrong? >Many of the Baronies *are* quasi-colonies. A relationship isn't that hard >to envision. > Not to mention that there are Ispan/Kerendan people in them. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:48:33 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Ravenloft Modules in Mystara >I6 would, IMHO, fit perfectly into one of the more "secluded"/infrequented >areas of Karameikos (especially if you're playing in circa 1000 AC, before >the place got more populated & opened up). The "common folk" are a rough >facimile of Traldarans (a Slavo-Transylvanian feel* to names, etc.) > Hey, didn't you know that Strahd von Zarovich is actually Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, and Azalin is Brannart McGregor? We could continue drawing parallels... ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:40:10 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) At 13:50 18 07 98 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote: >>His followers? So everyone suddenly forgets Loki? >The PWAs were careful to call Hule a Hagiarchy--a nation ruled by "holy >men." The holy men of Hule are not necessarily clerics. Loki's control of >Hule is through the master, not through any particular loyalty of the people >to him. I thought that the people of Hule worshipped Bozdogan aka Loki - not their leader the Master. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:12:25 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - An on-topic movie recommendation Hi everybody, just had to cast my vote for "Zorro" as well: it IS a great action movie. Probably the best action film to come down the pike in a long, long time. My wife even liked it, and she mostly merely tolerates action films. A smart, fun thrill-a-minute movie (geez, I sound like the back of a movie rental box!). Anyway, if you want to see "weapon mastery" in action (whip & sword), plus some great horseback riding stunt proficiencies, go see Mask of Zorro. Well, go see it anyway, but I had to tie the movie into D&D :) - - BC in Massachusetts *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #522 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 523 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Your Basic Greyhawk (rather a long rant...) [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's=Halav? Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:54:12 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Your Basic Greyhawk (rather a long rant...) Hi everybody - Recently I've been toying with the idea to take the Greyhawk setting and covert it to Basic rules; my idea is to have the landmass which is Greyhawk actually be on the world of Mystara, although far enough removed in miles from the Known World so that only characters with the ability to travel vast distances ("Princess Ark" type stuff) would be able to get from the Known World to Greyhawk, and vice versa. I have a fair amount of Greyhawk knowledge, as that is where I did a lot of my gaming way back when there was 1st edition Advanced D&D, and a lot of the modules and such were Greyhawk centered. In my own opinion, 1st edition Advanced really rocks and was written by gamers for gamers, rather than by a marketing department hoping to attract a wider (perhaps younger) audience with "dumbed down" language, sanitizing the demons and devils and such (Baatzeau and Ta'nari, or whatever they've disguised them as), and lots of slick shiny paper and colorful graphics, not to mention "kits" and "skills and powers" and all sorts of rampant munchkinism...yup, I'm talking 2nd edition Advanced, here! But I'm digressing... Yes I was weaned on 1st ed. Advanced, and love it though I do, it in itself was riddled with charts and complicated rules. I think Basic is a lot closer in spirit to 1st ed. Advanced (much more so than 2nd ed.), without all the rules complications that 1st ed. Advanced has. So now I gleefully pursue Basic while still using a lot of my 1st ed. Advanced stuff for inspiration (and conversion). Which brings me back to Greyhawk... I've found that Greyhawk translates to Basic a lot more readily than to 2nd ed. Advanced. For example, take the Scarlet Brotherhood in Greyhawk. This secretive southern nation is notorious for its rulership by fanatical warrior monks and its dispatching of assassins to cause trouble all over the nations of Greyhawk. In 2nd ed. Advanced, there simply are no monks, and the closest thing to an assassin class is the wimpy assassin kits available in a few of the handbooks. Lame. In Basic, you have the very able Mystic class, and for NPC assassins, you have the "Thug", or "member of the Pragmati", as detailed in either the Rules Cyclopedia or the Creature Catalog (I forget which one). For the Greyhawk deities, I like the way Basic has handled the Immortals in "Wrath of the Immortals". What I'm going to do is take the Greyhawk deities and simply have them be another aspect of existing Known World Immortals; i.e., why re-invent the wheel and do all the work of creating stats and powers for the Greyhawk death god Nerull the Reaper when Nerull can simply be Mystara's Thanos, only known by a different name and slightly altered description by the Greyhawkers? The way I see it, I'm literally getting the best of both worlds. Greyhawk and Mystara are the two oldest campaign worlds, and both are accordingly very well developed in every way. Just because I've given up using the Advanced system does not mean I cannot use all that great Greyhawk stuff with a very smooth, simple, fun intensive Basic. As an endnote, I refuse to buy into the new Greyhawk stuff currently being marketed by TSR because: a) I have a lot of the old Greyhawk stuff, so why buy a rehash? b) The stuff's overpriced and who can afford to gamble when the 1st ed. stuff was so good and 2nd ed. has a bad track record of putting out so much crap? c) I don't want to see how they've butchered Greyhawk with all the 2nd edition munchkinism and writing for three-year-olds. Okay, okay, I'm ranting, but it's Sunday morning and I've nothing else to do! - - BC in Massachusetts, originator of the Marx-like "Gaming Manifesto" :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:01:26 EDT From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives Greetings, all! I'm fairly new to the Mystara list and have been amazed at the amount of mail in my box day after day. And I thought that Mystara was a dead world.... Glad I found this little corner of cyberspace. My campaign focuses on the "Known World" corner of Brun, so a lot of the Alphatia, Esterhold, and Jennite discussion here goes in one ear and out the other (but don't get me wrong - ANY Mystara discussion is better than none at all!). One topic here that caught my attention is the argument about King Stefan Karameikos--is he a traitor to Thyatis or not? I've got another element to this situation that I haven't seen mentioned in the week or so I've been on the list. I made a similar post on the MYSTARA folder on AOL a couple of days back and still haven't had any responses. Somehow, I think things will be different here.... I know this sounds a bit far-fetched, but what if there's some truth to the beliefs of the Cult of Halav that King Stefan is the second coming of Halav? After all, the cult's priests DO receive their petitioned spells from SOME source, so there is definitely some Immortal game going on here. If Stefan WERE Halav incarnate (or an avatar, special agent, whatever), then this might help to explain why he turned his back on the Thyatians during WotI--the Thyatians were not Halav's people, the folk living in the lands of Traladar are. Let me know your opinions on the whole King Stefan/Cult of Halav situation. Demmero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:17:16 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 16.09 17/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Stefan being the Quisling Traitor Scum Collaborationist that he is, allied >to folks who have killed almost as many people of his native land as live >in his current kingdom, this is true. Yes, but now Stefan is a Karameikan, not a Thyatian. His homeland now is Karameikos, not Thyatis. BTW: what has Thyatis done for Karameikos from Stefan's takeover up to the start of WotI? Reading Gaz1 I had the impression of Karameikos being in no way subject to Thyatis, they were friendly neighbors, nothing more. True, there're many Thyatian natives in Karameikos, but this is true for Glantri, Darokin and Ierendi too. Stefan is not a traitor, he just feared that in helping Thyatis he would have met Alphatia's wrath in case of defeat... He just did what was best for his country. >Remember, NACE is not Alphatia. It doesn't have the magical resources of >Alphatia, or the military ones, and it has it's own problems. What with all >it's tried to accomplish lately, it's resources are spread much thinner >than Thyatis', IMO. Agreed. >I agree. Except for the IMO imperitive to get back "lost" stuff, I'm >actually agnostic about other "conquests". With "lost stuff" you mean Ochalea and Pearl Islands, right? Actually... ok, better if I here. Let me just point out that those islands aren't inhabited by true Thyatians. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:31:53 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 16.18 17/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Just another way to Script "Everything is wonderful for NACE, everything >sucks for Thyatis". As I said before, with sufficient willpower and >creativity, *anything* can be scripted (Esterhold & Glantri are symbolic of >that). Glantri recovered far too soon IMO. > What you are actually saying is that you don't think Thyatis should be >allowed to recover. So just say it. Actually I couldn't care less about Thyatis, Alphatia and NACE, but I won't like the other small countries to suffer just because they're small if compared to the big empires. >They had no experience with skyships, either, and (as I said) no shipyards >or shipwrights skilled in constructing even ships of "very different" >shape. 1) But do Glantrians have skyships? Didn't we give them just a couple of "montgolfieres" in the latest almanac? 2) Glantrians do have rivers, Glantri City is built on water so at least they know how to build gondolas (sp?) and rafts. At worst they're skyships will look like the flying barge of Chanda Ul Nervi (check CoM). 3) Averoignians and Klantrians come from a different world named Laterre. While Klantrie is a landlocked principality, "Scotland" on Laterre probably wasn't so there should be Klantrians who know how to build a ship.... or at least they've ancient text like "Build your own ship in just a week". 4) Most important point: Glantrian skyships need no resemble sea ships. They may well have a boxed shape like carts (and Glantrians certainly know how to build a cart), have no sail and be propelled by something else than wind. Flaems are Fire wizards, so can certainly come up with some sort of magic propulsion. BTW: maybe Glantrians could start building rockets instead of skyships. It won't be good for Jamuga if Glantrians start launching flaming rockets to the steppes, especially during the dry season... - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:12:20 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer Just wishing out loud, but ya know what would be cool? A master gazeteer for Mystara. I'd plunk my money down for that. A nice, hardbound, description and map-full book incorporating all the materal from the gazeteer series (Orcs of Thar, The Northern Reaches, the Dwarves of Rockhome, the Emirates of Ylarum, etc.) in the style of the Rules Cyclopedia. I don't have any of the Gazeteers myself, but I know a friend who has quite a few of them, though he's missing one or two and wishes he'll stumble upon them, somewhere, someday. Of course, this master gazeteer would have to use the Basic rules, as I can't stand 2nd ed. Advanced. Well, I know this is just wishing upon a star, but thought I'd blather on regardless. - - BC in Massachusetts *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:24:15 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) In a message dated 98-07-18 20:04:33 EDT, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: > So far, it's over 400 K, in the Wordpad format. I'm currently on Dragon > #186, so I've still got a ways to go. But I'm getting there. Right now, > the Princess Ark is in Wallara, and Haldemar just got back from being a > frilly lizard (I hate it when that happens). Next stop...the phanatons. Then you are nearly done, unless you want to include the Known World Grimoire as well. Congratulations! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:42:39 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! >Hmmmn. . .perhaps. I haven't bought all the most recient stuff. The last >largish chunk of stuff for FR that I bought (just before & just after "The >Great TSR Hiatus") had a strong whiff of "these NPCs are way more important >than your PCs can ever *dream* of becoming, and you better stay out of >their way while they do the important, heroic work. Go hussle Kobolds for >Copper Pieces instead." You know, I am always wondering in which accessories does it say "NPCs rule and your PCs suck". I haven't seen anything like that in my copies. Perhaps you can provide examples? > I.E. all the "heroic" stuff was being done by du Urden, Elminster, the >Symbul, etc., and the published materiel generally left PCs acting on the >margins or in the anti-climaxes of important events (I.E. the "nuking of Wrong. The "heroic" stuff that NPCs do was written about, but it wasn't the *only* heroic stuff in FR. After all, it's rather hard for TSR writers to know what heroic stuff your PCs do. >Zhentil Keep" was a result of NPC heroism, no PC involvement). The "nuking" of Zhentil Keep was done by Cyric, who is a greater god. I don't think PCs could be very involved together with him... ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:02:55 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) >With the exception of the ineffectual Ericall, I would challenge anybody >to name an Alphatian who was depicted as a "good guy" prior to the >start of the Princess Ark series. Hmmm... Tredorian? Gallatia Allatrian? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:48:06 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hule was (Re: Alphatian Greatness) >The PWAs were careful to call Hule a Hagiarchy--a nation ruled by "holy >men." The holy men of Hule are not necessarily clerics. Loki's control of >Hule is through the master, not through any particular loyalty of the people >to him. Since the Master would still be indebted to Loki for centuries, I >doubt that Loki would mind letting him have Hule. > Loki wouldn't mind losing the majority of his worshippers? IIRC his only other power base is in the Northern Reaches (which isn't much). But perhaps he and the Master could set up a dual religion, with Huleans worshipping them both (maybe as father and son). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:16:37 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? > > As I recall it was Thyatis that took over Tel Akbir and Biazzan... am I > remembering wrong? > No, you're right: but, as in real history their is a lot of "back and forth", and several cities/towns now in Ylaruam were also once part of Thyatis. This is one of the few areas in Mystara where a realistic "competing claims" scenario is set up, with both Ylaruam & Thyatis having (theoretical) claim to each other's territory, and ethnic Alaysians & Thyatians living on both sides of the border. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:48:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > It is funny, now that I think about it. If I reall like something > about Mystara, at some point someone came along and warped in some > way into a form I didn't like. Rakasta, Lupins, Alfheim, Shadow Elves, > Alphatia. Makes me wonder if I really want to see Mystara resurrected. I also wonder if that's the best idea. Seeing Mystara developed through this list and other unofficial channels makes it easier for me to reject those things I don't like as non-canonical while accepting those I do. Whereas once something is published by TSR I usually feel like I have to accept it as canon (though I may tinker alot with it). All my favorite areas of Mystara also had rough portrayals at times (Ylaurum,Norworld,Thyatis to name three)..I simply try to ignore the DoTE Norworld and focus on the one from the modules when these varying viewpoints of a nation immerge. Pick and choose the things you like for your Mystara (everyone's Mystara is unique though there are a large number of overlaps between them all IMO). Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > > A very noble theory. The fact that one of the most powerful > > countries of the world was ruled by a woman of immense magical power > > never hurt, either. : ) > > There is also the fact that in most mystaran cultures Women == Men in > rights and status. Plus we have some matriarchies (sp?) and some male-dominated cultures that while they may not balance each other out present you with the whole spectrum of choices. This is probably yet another part of Mystara's comprehensive feel that I think we all like. We have many RW nations represented, many opinions of gender roles, many human 'races', a place for non-humans, we have rhythm, we have music, what else could we want? :) Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:55:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) > Your theory would be fine except that it is the other way around. Alphatia > started out as the good guy. When was this? The earliest source of Alphatia I believe was CM1, wherein Alphatian is your colonial overlord with no respect for non-mages, Thyatis is your wannabe colonial overlord and Norworld is the nation of the good guys. It wasn't till DoTE till we started seeing the shift to Alphatia being the goodie-goodies (and there they were still represented as totally irrespectful of non-mages, of religion and of other nationalities). Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - To be a Mage (and some sortof related stuff) > 1) Raw talent. Minimal requirement is intelligence 9+ and being of a race > for which the Mage class is possible. Interesting formula, but one quick note - D&D has no minimal requirement of INT for a mage except in the Hollow World. They simply get an XP penalty for a lower INT. >3) Interest: Even if the character has both the talent and the >opportunity to learn magic, he will not do so if he is more interested in >pursuing some other career. This is the real key IMO. Just because a person is good at something does not mean they will go into a field where that skill is neccesary. I'm good at math but I certainly am not going into a math-related field. Heck, most social work professions are as far from math-related as you can get. Most societies have little use for mages IMO (or for adventurers in general), seeing them as not ready to deal with the practical but focused more on the mystical/hypothetical. Only high-level mages really become of great use to the society at large and win lots of respect (which is a driving force for most people. You want to feel needed). Overall, good summary of the causes behind why there are not more mages. Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:01:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's=Halav? > > I know this sounds a bit far-fetched, but what if there's some truth to the > beliefs of the Cult of Halav that King Stefan is the second coming of Halav? > He *could* be (a remote, IMO, possibility): TSR left it pretty much "open ended" in some ways, so as far as I'm concerned each DM can decide for himself. General consensus is that Sergeyev is a nutbag, and that Stefan is just some guy, yah know. For *most* purposes it wouldn't be nessisary for Stefan to be a Avatar of Halav (I.E. your "generic" campaign, he wouldn't need to be), however if you had a Karameikan campaign where for some reason a "climatic event" would/could be the revilation that Stefan *is* Halav, then that's what you should do. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:00:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer At 09:12 AM 7/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >Just wishing out loud, but ya know what would be cool? > >A master gazeteer for Mystara. > >I'd plunk my money down for that. A nice, hardbound, description >and map-full book incorporating all the materal from the gazeteer >series (Orcs of Thar, The Northern Reaches, the Dwarves of >Rockhome, the Emirates of Ylarum, etc.) in the style of the >Rules Cyclopedia. Well, let's see...14 Gazetteers, at ten bucks U.S. apiece, doubled for inflation... $280, and that wouldn't include the Creature Crucibles, the Hollow World, or even Dawn of the Emperors. Hefty, alright. I don't have any of the Gazeteers myself, >but I know a friend who has quite a few of them, though he's >missing one or two and wishes he'll stumble upon them, somewhere, >someday. Of course, this master gazeteer would have to use >the Basic rules, as I can't stand 2nd ed. Advanced. > You can find some of the Gazetteers on the Internet; check the online gaming stores. They've got quite a bit of Mystara stuff floating around, you just have to look for it. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) At 09:24 AM 7/19/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-18 20:04:33 EDT, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: > >> So far, it's over 400 K, in the Wordpad format. I'm currently on Dragon >> #186, so I've still got a ways to go. But I'm getting there. Right now, >> the Princess Ark is in Wallara, and Haldemar just got back from being a >> frilly lizard (I hate it when that happens). Next stop...the phanatons. > >Then you are nearly done, unless you want to include the Known >World Grimoire as well. Congratulations! I have completed the entire Princess Ark series, including the Log. I will be adding the material from the Known World Grimoire, including the dominion rules and the new nations that complete the Savage Coast. A dozen or so issues to go... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:11:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives > Greetings, all! I'm fairly new to the Mystara list and have been amazed at > the amount of mail in my box day after day. And I thought that Mystara was a > dead world.... Glad I found this little corner of cyberspace. Welcome to the society of Mystara preservers! The amount of mail varies considerably..now seems a bit more than the usual but it never really quites down to the point where you can neglect it for a month. To see alot of the stuff that has been done on the list, check out Shawn Stanley's webpage (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/), a very nice collection of the few years we've been at it. > My campaign focuses on the "Known World" corner of Brun, so a lot of the > Alphatia, Esterhold, and Jennite discussion here goes in one ear and out the > other (but don't get me wrong - ANY Mystara discussion is better than none at > all!). The Known World area gets covered alot..Karameikos, Glantri and Thyatis especially, with some discussion about the Khanates and the Broken Land the past few months. If you have any topics you wished discussed ever, feel free to bring them up. > the list. I made a similar post on the MYSTARA folder on AOL a couple of days > back and still haven't had any responses. Somehow, I think things will be > different here.... Well, alot of posts will get many replies but now and then a post will go unanswered for some reason or another (lack of interest re:that topic, lack of knowledge of that area of Mystara, has been discussed repeatedly before, etc). Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:08:48 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition > 2) Glantrians do have rivers, Glantri City is built on water so at least > they know how to build gondolas (sp?) and rafts. At worst they're skyships > will look like the flying barge of Chanda Ul Nervi (check CoM). Building and crewing small craft (gondolas, river boats) is *very* different from building and crewing real ships. Now, if the craft that formed Glantri's skyship fleet in the recient war were small, then that would be one thing. I couldn't argue the point. However, the implication seemed to me that they were quite a force, carrying troops et al. > 3) Averoignians and Klantrians come from a different world named Laterre. While Klatrie is a landlocked principality, "Scotland" on Laterre probably > wasn't so there should be Klantrians who know how to build a ship.... or at > least they've ancient text like "Build your own ship in just a week". > Yes, but 1) they didn't move to Mystara just yesterday and 2) I could go to the lybrary and pick up a book, or several books, on shipbuilding, and I doubt me and my buddies would have much success with our first efforts. A theoretical text on shipbuilding is very different from actual experience doing the job. Even a text on the "engeneering" of the shipwright craft isn't the same as hands-on work. Most folks who do/did that kind of thing have/had direct, practical tutoring. Other things one can think of (experimental stuff) generally takes more than a few months (more like a few years) to get the "kinks" worked out. > 4) Most important point: Glantrian skyships need no resemble sea ships. > They may well have a boxed shape like carts (and Glantrians certainly know > how to build a cart), > They'd manuver like carts, too. > BTW: maybe Glantrians could start building rockets instead of skyships. It > won't be good for Jamuga if Glantrians start launching flaming rockets to > the steppes, especially during the dry season... > Point of all this, once again, is that you *can* script what you want, then come up with good (or good enough) reasons to explain everything retroactively. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:08:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! >You know, I am always wondering in which accessories does it say "NPCs rule >and your PCs suck". I haven't seen anything like that in my copies. Perhaps >you can provide examples? > While it never specifically words it that way, the impression is very strong. Starting with the Avatar trilogy, the Realms 'adventures' became interactive novels in which the DM led the party by the nose and no matter what the PCs attempted to do, Elminster or some god would fix their 'mistakes.' The Seven Sisters is one of the worst examples of this; it's not an adventure, but it describes seven NPCs of truly disgusting power. Picture this conversation between a player and the DM. Player: Okay, I'm going to research a ninth-level spell that allows me to cast more than one spell at a time. The spells go off together, and can be any spells of up to seventh-level. DM: That's so unbalancing to the game you're never going to succeed. Player: But the Simbul can do it! DM: She's an NPC. Player: Boy, that's really fair. See what I mean? >Wrong. The "heroic" stuff that NPCs do was written about, but it wasn't the >*only* heroic stuff in FR. After all, it's rather hard for TSR writers to >know what heroic stuff your PCs do. > They didn't leave much for the PCs to do. >>Zhentil Keep" was a result of NPC heroism, no PC involvement). > >The "nuking" of Zhentil Keep was done by Cyric, who is a greater god. I >don't think PCs could be very involved together with him... > Why not? They might have been involved in him rising to godhood in the Avatar trilogy (whether they wanted him to rise or not). Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #523 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 524 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Good Alphatians that pre-dated Haldemar Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? [MYSTARA] - everquest and D&D Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life [MYSTARA] - P. Ark, updated data [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:15:50 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > Yes, but now Stefan is a Karameikan, not a Thyatian. His homeland now is > Karameikos, not Thyatis. > When folks move to a new country, they generally don't completely forget their past affiliations, and start falling in love with their old native land's historical foes. Just my experience, IRL, is all. > BTW: what has Thyatis done for Karameikos from Stefan's takeover up to the > start of WotI? > Thyatis did exactly what Stefan wanted: Stefan wanted a "free hand" to mold a nation in his own image, and he wanted Thyatis to stand in the backround, "just in case" someone got any ideas about invading & displacing him (thus the "Grand Duchy" pantomome). If you get exactly what you want (as Karameikos has always gotten), you shouldn't "sell out" your allies and "betray" them (thouse are WotI adjectives for what Stefan did, not mine; probably the first and last time they were honest about his actions). > Stefan is not a traitor, he just feared that in helping Thyatis he would > have met Alphatia's wrath in case of defeat... He just did what was best > for his country. > Again, that would be true. . . .*if* he weren't *still*, after WotI, cozying up to Alphatia/NACE. > > With "lost stuff" you mean Ochalea and Pearl Islands, right? > Actually... ok, better if I here. Let me just point out that those islands > aren't inhabited by true Thyatians. > Per Player's Guide to Thyatis, "Thyatians" aren't a race, per se: all the folks with Thyatian citizenship (be they "Thyatians", Alaysians, *shock* Alphatians, etc., by ethnic derivation) are Thyatians. While this "ideal" may not always match "reality", the idea that Thyatis was a "multicultural" Empire was one of the things that attracted some to it (c.f. some posts by other folks). IMO, good arguments have been put forth that Thyatis get back some of this "diversity", rather than becoming a homogeneous nation. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:17:53 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Good Alphatians that pre-dated Haldemar > > >With the exception of the ineffectual Ericall, I would challenge anybody > >to name an Alphatian who was depicted as a "good guy" prior to the > >start of the Princess Ark series. > > Hmmm... Tredorian? Gallatia Allatrian? > Tylion/Terari, Torenal, and Eridana herself was portrayed sympathetically. But I can't remember if the DotE set came out just before or just after the "Voyage of the Princess Ark" began. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:32:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > ROB (I'm trying to prove James Ruhland wrong. Someone agree with me,if > only to shut him up :) Err, I don't know what others think but his opinions have been rather well-argued and not antagonistic in the least. The discussions have been very on-topic (heck, the nature of the major Mystaran nations is as relevant as we get). Why would we want to shut up anyone who is arguing in a balanced manner and whose posts fit the purpose of the list? As for wrong and right, there are no wrongs and rights in Mystara. We all have our own versions of Mystara and should not try to impose our Mystaras as the one true world on other list members. We can offer opinions/interpretations but they need not be 'right'. If you're going by a strict 'right'/'wrong' based on the TSR publications, then I'm afraid James is right by that definition - Thyatis got a worse deal as time went on and Alphatia was presented in a brighter light. Whether you agree with the earlier or later portrayals of the nations is totally up to each DM though and neither is neccesarily more correct than the other. Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:44:29 -0000 From: "David Corrales" Subject: [MYSTARA] - everquest and D&D This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BDB312.F8852320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anybody here checked out Everquest (on-line rpg). The game seems to = be similar to D&D but 3D.=20 Wouldn't it be cool if they had a game just like it set in Mystara. Check it out. www.everquest.com dlegend - ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BDB312.F8852320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anybody here checked out = Everquest (on-line=20 rpg). The game seems to be similar to D&D but 3D.
 
Wouldn't it be cool if they had a game just like it = set in=20 Mystara.
 
Check it out.
 
www.everquest.com
 
dlegend
- ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BDB312.F8852320-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:47:20 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > boxed set contains the end of the series. However, later "Known World > Grimoire" articles did describe other parts of Mystara without reference > to Haldemar and his crew. The Arm of the Immortals was covered in > issue #200. Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up :) I have maps from Dragon tho that go all the way to the Arm. That's probably from the Grimoire. Is anyone compiling those articles? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:52:58 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: > Well, I know this is just wishing upon a star, but thought I'd > blather on regardless. > > - BC in Massachusetts As another hard core basic rules boyu from Mass, I'd definitely put down even 50$ for a Compilation gaz (like what they did with B 1-9) Provided it was done well, and without that AD&D "crap" everyone has been ravin' 'bout. :) Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:07:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Princess Ark box" >Thanks for clearing that up :) >I have maps from Dragon tho that go all the way to the Arm. That's >probably from the Grimoire. > >Is anyone compiling those articles? > Me. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:53:18 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Pat said: >Along these lines, I had an idea: would there be enough interest on this >list to convert the Savage Coast stuff into OD&D terms? It would probably >be rather labor-intensive, but I have a suspicion that a number of people >are doing it individually as it is, so perhaps we should joing forces? Yes!!!! Though I couldn't help out, I would eagerly love to see a D&D version of the Red Steel stuff! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:02:17 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life >>I never did really go for the Red Steel setting. At least they >toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta from the Princess Ark >thing. I love the Rakasta, but prefer them nice and occidental. I >also like them as one species, not as the broad name for humanoid cats >that was put forward by Bruce Heard in Dragon. Same with Lupins.<< Whoever wrote this... has the facts seriously wrong. >>At least *they* toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta [...]<< Excuse me? First off, I wote up the Oriental rakasta as citizens of Myoshima - -- not of the Savage Coast. I don't know who you are referring to as *they*, since *I* wrote up the SC rakasta as 100% English. In fact *they* (being the developer and editor of the AD&D Red Steel box) incorporated the Japanese stuff back into SC rakasta against my wishes. Okay!? As far as the generic rakasta and lupins being used vs. their subraces made available in Dragon, that's entirely up to anyone since the material was optional. Just the facts, Ma'am! Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:02:19 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - P. Ark, updated data >>I have completed the entire Princess Ark series, including the Log.<< (Glen) You might want to have a look at the material compiled in the boxed set Champions of Mystara, which introduced some updated info and much needed editorial corrections -- such as problems with the dates use in the original P. Ark logs. There is additional info as well. Just a thought... Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:16:54 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Hey All, Just a quick note to share my opinions on a hopeful Thyatian renaissance: Thyatis has been in the gutter long enough - 1016 should be the year that it begins to move on surer footing once again. There are many suitable "popular" wars that could be fought, with relatively low cost (IMO). 1. Retake Ochalea (I'd like to see this happen, if only for strategic purposes, and because I really don't see any logical reason why they'd have wanted to leave in the first place, after having been Citizens for a thousand years, having cultural autonomy, and while having some brainwashing, no doubt (you don't dwell within an empire for a thousand years and then abruptly cut all ties - many Ochaelans IMO would be loyal Thyatians at heart, wanting to return to the fold - it's just never that cut and dry). But since this isn't likely to happen in 1016, it could wait 'til 1017-18. 2. Expand in Davania. Well, since I'm in charge of that department - wait and see. *knowing look to fellow Davania team members* 3. Retake Westrourke. Duke Firestorm needs to receive a lesson in loyalty. Nuff 'said. 4. Retake Tameronikas. Lost to the Ylari hordes in AC 821, there are still many people of Thyatian descent living there, some of whom might not mind being part of Thyatis again. With the rise of the Kin faction, trade ties would have withered, and the local economy suffered. The ensuing tarar'ri raids and civil wars/etc. haven't made things much better. Also, the Duchy of Tel Akbir wouldn't being being a bit bigger, too. So, in the end, let me suggest that a quick detachment of Thyatian Legionnaires liberate the suffering town of Tameronikas from its suffering, and firmly incorporate it into Thyatis, where it belongs. :-) Galfridus Julinianus - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:19:08 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? Shawn, High Seer of Y'hog, spake from on high: >Yeah it's called Voyage of the Princess Ark. The rules in that work for me >much better than any of the stuff since - Bruce got it right the first time >round. If it does go back to D&D, then perhaps the NPCs given in the sourcebooks should be given the powers described in Dragon, since these were written for D&D anyway? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:21:05 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Ethan said: >Unfortunately, those were all Dragon Articles, and I suspect most of us >don't have the whole set. > Err, I do. >Why didn't they make a more comprehensive Princess Ark box? > A D&D Red Steel boxed set would have been a good idea... Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:27:29 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 Ambreville@aol.com wrote: > stuff back into SC rakasta against my wishes. Okay!? As far as the generic > rakasta and lupins being used vs. their subraces made available in Dragon, > that's entirely up to anyone since the material was optional. Just the facts, > Ma'am! Woah. I guess this is a touchy subject. One question concerning Rakasta. On the Isle of Dread, there is a Rakasta tribe. Where exactly does this group originate from? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:28:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (was Anyone play Basic? On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > If it does go back to D&D, then perhaps the NPCs given in the sourcebooks > should be given the powers described in Dragon, since these were written > for D&D anyway? This makes sense. No reason to screw up the whole kit and kaboodle by tossing around A*&D stats. Max IV - I got a Mystara game running! Woo hoo! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:49:29 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do > From: Rob > > I am a White Wolf fan, and have been known to hang out in the > >Goth scene, but I tend to dislike gaming with them. After four > >hours of in-character acting I just want ot start busting some heads! > > Phew! Whenever I play Vampire I usually end up wishing to grab a d20 and > make a few hit rolls as well. > > Perhaps I am not a Philestine after all. Well, you might still be. :P Vampire is a good game, it just tends to bring out the worst in some people, whether it is extreme pretenciousness or extreme powermongering. > Hel is on my side. Careful, Hel is a fickle alliy. : ) Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:02:06 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Neat! I didn't know we had Mystara personalities on the list! Are there any others? But, it looks like Bruce needs to relax! > From: Ambreville@aol.com > >>I never did really go for the Red Steel setting. At least they > >toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta from the Princess Ark > >thing. I love the Rakasta, but prefer them nice and occidental. I > >also like them as one species, not as the broad name for humanoid cats > >that was put forward by Bruce Heard in Dragon. Same with Lupins.<< > > Whoever wrote this... has the facts seriously wrong. Ok, got it. It doesn't change my views, though. > >>At least *they* toned down the Oriental aspect of the Rakasta [...]<< > > Excuse me? First off, I wote up the Oriental rakasta as citizens of Myoshima > -- not of the Savage Coast. I don't know who you are referring to as *they*, > since *I* wrote up the SC rakasta as 100% English. In fact *they* (being the > developer and editor of the AD&D Red Steel box) incorporated the Japanese > stuff back into SC rakasta against my wishes. Okay!? OK! Take it easy, Bruce. It wasn't a personal attack. > As far as the generic > rakasta and lupins being used vs. their subraces made available in Dragon, > that's entirely up to anyone since the material was optional. Just the facts, > Ma'am! Don't call me ma'am, it makes me feel old. : ) I know it's optional. We we're just in the vicinity of my opinion, so I tossed it out. I would argue with the word "generic" when used to describe the original Rakasta and Lupins. Although they are certainly in the category of "animal headed humanoids" so often seen in fantasy and sci-fi, I felt they were distinctive enough on their own. Just my viewpoint. Not to get into an arguement with the man who wrote Glantri, one of the best of the Gazetteers. Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:38:57 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 01.10 18/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote: >Well, medieval wars don't generally damage a nations infrastructure like >modern weapons do. Thats one of the reasons why WW1 was such a shock to >everyone. Even counting mages, I dont think the Alphatians were carpet >bombing Thyatis City. IIRC medieval war had no wizards, skyships, fireballs, meteor swarms... Not sure though :-) > >The Thyatian economy may have suffered, but 2/3 of the Alphatian economy is >now in the HW.... >Probably all the juicy stuff would have been on mainland Alphatia anyway. Maybe, but IMO the Bellisaria, Norwold, Qheodar... are completely self-sufficient. >As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk >into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic >enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much of >an economy... Are you sure? I think Australia, India, Canada and all the major colonies would have been able to sustain themselves withouth the need of goods coming from Britain, though I doubt they would have continued with the Empire. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:06:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? At 19.04 17/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > First, the good news: I *plan* for this to be the last Thyatis-related >thread initiated by me for quite some time (*cheers rise up from the >audience*). Doesn't mean I won't respond to other people's stuff (*chorus >of boos*). Don't worry about starting Thyatis related threads. I like these debates and I think it's good for Mystara and for the MML to have these interesting discussions. > Time past, with the publication of DotE (which I eagerly awaited), I found >much to like in both Alphatia and Thyatis. Yes, as a fan of Byzantium, I >favored Thyatis. And yes, as such a person I was somewhat disapointed that >Thyatis didn't look much like Byzantium, especially the "good" aspects of >it. Actually I don't like very much this Thyatis = Byzantium comparaison. IMC I prefer to have Thyatis = Roman Empire. Maybe that's because at school we're not taught very much about Byzantium, while we're told a lot about the mighty Roman Empire (including the study of Latin in certain schools). >But Thyatis had corruption, It gives Thyatis a more latin feeling, there was corruption in ancient Rome, there's corruption nowadays in Italy... >Hattians, I like them, though they don't fit very well in a Byzantine setting. >infamous treachery (though, oddly, most--even Alphatiaphiles who despise >Thyatis--agree that Thincol & Eusibius, oddly enough, are men of their >word. Strange. . . .), and a fudal system (ok, some like dukes & counts & >barons, but I found this to be a flaw). True, a feudal system doesn't fit too with a Byzantine setting. > WotI also saw the begining of my attitudes starting to harden, against >Alphatia, as I held on tight to Thyatis. A strange reaction? Perhaps. After >all, many people want to go with a winner. Somehow, a "lost cause" always >attracts me more (but, then, I'm a Packer fan. . . .) Now I understand why we never agree! I like Packers, but I'm a 49ers fan. > One doesn't have to change any events to decide that Stefan is not the >upstanding & good man that his "press" would indicate: Res Ipsos Loquitor. >But different people have different interpretations of what I'd call >ungrateful betrayal. Stefan was born in Thyatis, so his "ungrateful betrayal" should not be a surprise :-) > I sent in the other day a request. No, a plea. To some members of the Net >Almanac team. The plea was that "Thyatian distinctiveness be preserved". >That the imbalance be rectified. That Thyatis get back some of the "good" >things about it, and be allowed some "good news" to be scripted into Net >Almanac 1015 to make up for the disasters. I know about it. I've even seen some of your good ideas and I hope you'll join us. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:24:14 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) At 08.39 18/07/98 EDT, Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > >The main victim of this shift was the "Heldannic Freeholds" -- but that >name was dropped once it became known that the Heldanners were >controlled by the evil Hattians. Of course, there were fewer complaints >about this shift because (a) few details about the place had been >published, and (b) at the time of the shift the majority of the population >were depicted as victims of Hattian oppression. But by now most of >you have forgotten about the "original" Heldanners, right? Now when >anyone mentions "Heldanner", all you think of is those fanatical >Clerics of Vanya. The name was dropped because when the Heldannic Knights conquered the area the "holds" were no more "free". The original Heldanners weren't forgotten, look at the rebels in JA and Net-Almanacs. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:33 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis I'm collecting some notions about the Empire of Thyatis, his allies, former colonies and foes, and the events of these last years. 1. Thyatis had had influence or even possession about most lands in Brun during the last milennium. Ierendi - a penalty colony Traladara - no noticable developement while being a protectorate Ylaruam - most lost to Ylari in the three hundred years war Glantri - colonists Darokin - colonists They gave up all or lost them. Obviously they had lost interests in them, perhaps for political reasons (Senat against Emperor) 2. They fought for Glantri in the war and got no reward for that. This was not to be expected. Besides fighting for Glantri (!!) they wanted to stop the Alphatians occupying a piece of Brun. Everybody who has wanted a reward from chaotic and egoistic Glantri should visit a psychiatrist. 3. Karameikos stayed neutral. Two sights: Stefan acted on a Thyatian way as he committed a treason. OTOH Karameikos was an independent country, which decides not commit suicide in participating in this big war. BTW, Stefan would have been a king before if he had not feared that his "old friend" Thincol would have reconquered him for that. 4. Ochalea and the Pearl Islands defected. No reason known. The way the had become part of the empire was not correct in the first place, but this is 1000 years ago. Perhaps Korotiku and Koryis told the rulers better to stay out of the war. Their should be pro-Thyatian factions in both kingdoms. 5. Thyatis starts conquering Brun Good chance for Alphatia to make new friends. When one super-power is threatening you seek help from another. 6. Thyatis needs a military victory Really? But if this should be true, why not conquering Hule, what's a constant threat to Thyatian colonies. And don't tell me, that Thyatis would not be able to do this because of the distance. 7. Alphatia is recovering faster and better Alphatia has not start constant fights after the war, at least not as big as Thyatis. Additionally Alphatia's resources were some dozen times greater than Thyatis'. The remnants of the empire are no longer lazy, egozentric and self-sufficient. In many ways Alphatia must become a "normal" country now. 8. Thothia beated Thyatis only to join the NACE Thyatis was weaker as it wanted to admit. After the first victories on the Isle of Dawn the finally met a foe who had been outside all events during the last centuries. With the advantages of surprise and century-old preparation the Thothians managed it to beat the Thyatians. Eusebius is still fighting the effects of this defeat and the resulting shock. After that Thothia joined the NACE because such a victory would be very unlikely against a well-prepared Thyatian Empire. 9. Thyatian virtues have been switched to Alphatia At least partially true. The problem Thyatis is facing now originate from the lost war against Alphatia and from the needless try to conquer the remnants of Alphatia. It's true that the lower classes were better treated in Thyatis, but not in the last years. When starving the slaves and poor citizens are a frenzy mob and a threat to the empire. But the biggest problem Thyatis have now is that the empire doesn't start to recover. Instead it's destroying itself. Only the worst Thyatians attitudes are shown today, a event even in RW cultures occur. 10. The Slavery in Alphatia is vanishing Indeed there are some signs that the slavery is vanishing in the NACE. This were already in the TSR almanacs, and it seems that most of us like it this way. But we might explain it this way: Slavery and mistreatment of servants and freemen is an old Alphatian tradition, but only in the mainland and some other places like Esterhold. What if this attitude wasn't so strong in Bellissaria, Norwold, the Alatians, Aquas and the Isle of Dawn? This could lead to the the effects observed in the last years. No slavery and more rights for lower classes in the NACE, old customs in the Hollow World. One good reason for doing so: Without so many spellcaster the NACE has to rely more than ever on commoners, so the society can develop in a more human way. 11. Future events? Thyatis should reconsider their attitude against slavery as the time on the Outer World might be over for that. The Thyatians should cooperate to solve their problems instead of seeking quick but suicidal military solutions. An attack of Alphatian troops on Aegos and Dunadale might help to restore the status quo before the war as Alphatia would get back their old territories and the colonies wouldn't want to leave the empire or would return. The federal structure of the old Alphatian Empire or even the NACE should be integrated into the Thyatian Empire. No more centralistic government, instead semi-autonomous kingdoms like Helskir or Ochalea and the Pearl Islands. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #524 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 525 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis [MYSTARA] - RPG Setting Jingoism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:21 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis << Hule still needs to get Darokin before they can get to Thyatis. But, IMO, that shouldn't be too far off. Remember also that Atzanteotl is currently indebted to Loki, so Oenkmar and the Tiger Clan will contribute to the fall of Darokin. >> No problem! The scenario I'm just describing means that the Thyatian legions makes a Blitzkrieg against Minrothad, Ierendi, Karameikos AND Darokin. The next targets are Ylaruam, Soderfjord, Westland and Ostland. Hule and Alphatia would have a free way to attack Thyatis. I don't want this, and I believe, many other neither, but it's the logical consequence of the scenario Thyatis fans are developing. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:28 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai << Mogai was killed in the final battle with Glantri, leaving Ethengar in a Hobbsean State of Nature. >> You can be assured that I see THIS as inacceptable. Compared with this Thyatis is faring very well in the last years. :'-( Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:27 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad << (btw, a day ago the "Khan" made a resonable request that I answer a certain question regarding what gave me the impression that in some circles Thyatis is considered "NACE bait." Lest anyone thing I rudely ignored his question, it was answered via private mail to him directly. If anyone is interested in recieving a copy of that message, they can mail me directly to request one: >> To avoid the impression that I'm anti-Thyatian I must admit that the reasons James told were plausible. OTOH I must say that the actions of Thyatis after the war were more than appropiated to stomp the Empire into the dust. Instead of reconquering the the lost territories on the Isle of Dawn to regain the status quo the stormed further and were unprepared for the defenses Thothia had prepared over the last centuries. IMHO it would have been better Thyatis had taken Westrourke, Redstone, West Portage, Kendach, Septentriona, Furmenglaive and Caerwicca, but had stopped then to consolidate the Empire. After that negotiations with Ochalea and the Pearl Islands might have regained the last losses during the war. The current discussions about Thyatian conquests on Brun do no good to the Empire. Besides that, I have not yet heard any good reason what advantage a conquest of Minrothad, Ierendi or Karameikos would do to Thyatis. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:26 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << I have no problem with the concept -- in fact, Alphatia and the real world Picts seem to come fairly close. But the hurdle to overcome is the importance that males in most human cultures attach to paternity (that is, to "knowing" that certain children are theirs). As long as that factor exists, men will come up with some way to restrict access to "their" women -- and whether that method involves a formal marriage ceremony or not, it would still be something that is recognized within that culture. >> I hope I don't sound like a CD here, but we have the information that elves do not marry, and I would rather see at least one human culture adopting to elven customs. The problems are solvable. You have noticed some. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:25 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs << However, an untamed forest environment might be more likely to influence humans to adopt elven ways. >> Are we still talking about Wendar now? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:29 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? << fog is common enough no matter where one sails. same thing for reefs. means to address the above are out there and are used. also iirc the reefs and fog coincidently are strategically positioned to obstruct entrance in and out of minrothad's harbors. guess what? thyatis doesn't assault the harbors directly. they land their troops down the coast and let their superior land forces do their work after marching in. >> A friend of mine is wondering why a land like Thyatis should land it's invasion force via galleys. Why not creating some gates and conquering through another plane? There are definitely enough mages and clerics to do this. Same strategy would have been better for Alphatis during WotI to battle Glantri. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:10:20 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: > > In my own > opinion, 1st edition Advanced really rocks and was written by > gamers for gamers, rather than by a marketing department hoping > to attract a wider (perhaps younger) audience with "dumbed down" > language, Oh, I'd hate to have more people in the hobby or rule books that don't require a large dictionary. Thankfully, it seems the market is shrinking. Yea! > sanitizing the demons and devils and such (Baatzeau > and Ta'nari, or whatever they've disguised them as), Oh, they're not disquised. They just got rid of the Type ***. Let's see, a Balor was a Type VI demon and a Marilith was a Type V demon both of which are Tanar'ri, etc. > and lots > of slick shiny paper and colorful graphics, not to mention "kits" > and "skills and powers" and all sorts of rampant > munchkinism...yup, I'm talking 2nd edition Advanced, here! Well, we just forgot all about those assassins, monks, and cavaliers, didnt' we? Demmero@aol.com wrote: > > I know this sounds a bit far-fetched, but what if there's some truth to the > beliefs of the Cult of Halav that King Stefan is the second coming of Halav? > After all, the cult's priests DO receive their petitioned spells from SOME > source, so there is definitely some Immortal game going on here. If Stefan > WERE Halav incarnate (or an avatar, special agent, whatever), then this might > help to explain why he turned his back on the Thyatians during WotI--the > Thyatians were not Halav's people, the folk living in the lands of Traladar > are. I seriously doubt that Stefan is Halav. Possibily related to him but not the actual Immortal. But Halav is strategist and it wouldn't seem out of character for him to use Stefan in a way to help the Traladarans. He may supply the Cult of Halav with spells and foster their believe in Stefan as Halav as part of a plan. Stefan has been very good to a conquered people. He came in and stopped Thyatian abuses that existed before (even though there were still some, the Traladarans had to bow to Stefan for Halav you use him). Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > Yes, but now Stefan is a Karameikan, not a Thyatian. His homeland now is > Karameikos, not Thyatis. > BTW: what has Thyatis done for Karameikos from Stefan's takeover up to the > start of WotI? Nothing. > Reading Gaz1 I had the impression of Karameikos being in no way subject to > Thyatis, they were friendly neighbors, nothing more. True, there're many > Thyatian natives in Karameikos, but this is true for Glantri, Darokin and > Ierendi too. Karameikos was still part of the empire though it had more freedom than other duchies. > Stefan is not a traitor, he just feared that in helping Thyatis he would > have met Alphatia's wrath in case of defeat... He just did what was best > for his country. I don't think he feared anything at all. He saw a chance to completely break away from a dying empire and took it. The pact with Alphatia insure that Karameikos would be recognized by the other nations as a free kingdom in case Thyatis decided to attack. Even now, Thyatis is held back from invading Karameikos because it is a recognized kingdom with allies that will come to its defense if only to stop Thyatian aggression. Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > Glantri recovered far too soon IMO. I think so too. In fact, most of the Known World recovered far too soon to what was supposed to be a 'Great War'. > Actually I couldn't care less about Thyatis, Alphatia and NACE, but I won't > like the other small countries to suffer just because they're small if > compared to the big empires. I could agree with that. Thyatis should be going through a renaissance though. One brought on by the death, destruction, plagues, wars, change of emperors, riots, and all the social unrest. Instead, its business as usual. This empire is unchanging and its simply not realistic. And I still fail to see any Byzantium aspects as it still resembles Rome in its last days. I don't know why Alphatia is mention very much at all in the Known World. That empire is gone. Maybe not destroyed but it may as well be as far as the Known World is concerned. NACE, NAE or ACE.. whatever its called is a bad idea. There may have been some that wanted to bring the remains of Alphatia together but there's too much distance and too much destruction for things to be so easy to do so. And Thyatis shouldn't be a threat for a long time as it attempts heal itself. So, that shouldn't be a motivation for a new Alphatia. James Ruhland wrote: > > No, you're right: but, as in real history their is a lot of "back and > forth", and several cities/towns now in Ylaruam were also once part of > Thyatis. > This is one of the few areas in Mystara where a realistic "competing > claims" scenario is set up, with both Ylaruam & Thyatis having > (theoretical) claim to each other's territory, and ethnic Alaysians & > Thyatians living on both sides of the border. This is also an area that Ylaruam didn't exploit during WotI. After years of fighting of a strip of land, right when Thyatis was weakest they didn't take it back. You're right that its set up realistically but it seems it will forever remain that way making it unrealistic in the long run. Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > > 1) Raw talent. Minimal requirement is intelligence 9+ and being of a race > > for which the Mage class is possible. > > Interesting formula, but one quick note - D&D has no minimal requirement > of INT for a mage except in the Hollow World. They simply get an XP > penalty for a lower INT. I dunno why they made a requirement. I think it would be fun to have a wizard that's not very good at magic. The way I've pictured the Karameikan School of Magecraft is that just because you attend, doesn't mean you'll be good with magic out in the field. James Ruhland wrote: > > General consensus is that Sergeyev is a nutbag, and that Stefan is just > some guy, yah know. True. But even good Immortals aren't above using mortals in such ways. James Ruhland wrote: > > Building and crewing small craft (gondolas, river boats) is *very* > different from building and crewing real ships. Now, if the craft that > formed Glantri's skyship fleet in the recient war were small, then that > would be one thing. I couldn't argue the point. However, the implication > seemed to me that they were quite a force, carrying troops et al. This is true. Glantri's biggest problem isn't that they don't have the ability, its that they don't use resources very well. If you're not a mage, you're esentially useless. That should carry all the way through their society. A society that is geared more toward individuals rather than the nation as a whole. They are narrow-minded and that carrys all the way through in the society so things like skyships are really beyond their understanding if not ability. > Point of all this, once again, is that you *can* script what you want, then > come up with good (or good enough) reasons to explain everything > retroactively. That's true but I think it would require going all the way to their roots. Glen Sprigg wrote: > > While it never specifically words it that way, the impression is very > strong. Starting with the Avatar trilogy, the Realms 'adventures' became > interactive novels in which the DM led the party by the nose and no matter > what the PCs attempted to do, Elminster or some god would fix their > 'mistakes.' The Seven Sisters is one of the worst examples of this; it's > not an adventure, but it describes seven NPCs of truly disgusting power. You really shouldn't go on impressions (especially second hand ones). After all, to the RPGers as a whole, Mystara is the 'beginners' world and that impression looks to have stuck. The Seven Sisters is an accessory describing seven NPCs of the Realms. They are no more disgusting that Etienne or a council of 1000 wizards of 36th level. You apparently have little knowledge of the Realms and shouldn't be making misleading assumptions. > Picture this conversation between a player and the DM. > > Player: Okay, I'm going to research a ninth-level spell that allows me to > cast more than one spell at a time. The spells go off together, and can be > any spells of up to seventh-level. > > DM: That's so unbalancing to the game you're never going to succeed. > > Player: But the Simbul can do it! > > DM: She's an NPC. > > Player: Boy, that's really fair. > > See what I mean? No. If one of my players in the Realms want to become a Chosen of Mystra, there isn't a single thing that says that can't happen. If I allow the NPCs to have something, I can do the same with a player's character. The Realms depend on the DM having final say in everything. Not a bunch of 'protective' rules. And certainly not someone pretending to be a DM by never giving the players a challenge without involving NPCs. You haven't made a case at all. > They didn't leave much for the PCs to do. Maybe. It depends on how lazy the DM is. > >>Zhentil Keep" was a result of NPC heroism, no PC involvement). > > > >The "nuking" of Zhentil Keep was done by Cyric, who is a greater god. I > >don't think PCs could be very involved together with him... > > > Why not? They might have been involved in him rising to godhood in the > Avatar trilogy (whether they wanted him to rise or not). Didn't read our Avatar trilogy too closely, did we? Cyric rose to godhood by betraying everyone around him. In any case, the razing of Zhentil Keep didn't involve NPC heroism. It didn't involve heroism at all. It was a mad god that destroyed half a city. The DM is perfectly within his rights to stop the destruction as the Keep still exists. The same way one could stop Alphatia's destruction. You have a lot to work with in the Realms but if you want to be lazy then it will show in what you make. Which is probably why it has such a large following. It gives you more tools to work with. It's great for the lazy DM and for the one that likes to create things himself. On a few things: I saw earlier that someone was very enamored with Thyatis and its Byzantine aspects. I find that it has few and would like for it to take on more. For it to become *the* Mystara equalivate of Byzantium will require more changes than I feel people are willing to accept here. Another thing is that Karameikos gets much dislike. I think some have forgotten what Karameikos offers that other nations can't, adventurers. There is not larger concentration of them and their levels should be quite high. The wilderness of the nation is what supports my view on this. The cosmopolitan nations just can't compete with that. The Traladarans will see their golden age again as Karameikos stretches out its arms. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:23:06 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life >Excuse me? First off, I wote up the Oriental rakasta as citizens of Myoshima >-- not of the Savage Coast. I don't know who you are referring to as *they*, >since *I* wrote up the SC rakasta as 100% English. In fact *they* (being the >developer and editor of the AD&D Red Steel box) incorporated the Japanese >stuff back into SC rakasta against my wishes. Okay!? Hear, Hear! I absolutely agree, as Bellayne was by far the biggest disappointment in Red Steel--Bruce's DRAGON version was far superior. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:26:55 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization > From: James Ruhland > > Agreed. I never did like the memorization idea. I let spellcasters > > cas whatever spells they know, going by the limits of the standard > > tables. Not too overpowering. > > > Gah! I have to disagree. > I guess it depends in no small part on the "power level" of your campaign. > I.E. if the spellcasters are reasonably low level (say, 7th or less), then > giving them this advantage isn't too big a deal. > However, as spellcasters get more powerful in general, the fact that they > have to limit themselves to a certain selection of the (probably vast) > number of spells that they know (I.E. either in their Spellbook, or that > their god/Immortal will let them cast) is one of the few limits on their > power. Especially given the humongous # of spells available to folks these > days. I start all my games at 1st level and continue with what I see as the progression level the designers probably figured on. I hand out the kind of magic and spells I feel are comensurate with the intended heroic feel of D&D. I started using my non-memorization system with the release of the Expert set, and in the dozen or more games I have run with it, not once did the the wizards dominate the campaign or consistently overshadow the other players. I have never received any complaints from players that they felt the spellcasters were any better off than their own characters. The last game I ran reached around 22nd level, and the group consisted of a wizard, a cleric, an elf, a dwarf and two warriors. Letting a spellcaster choose from his spell selection at the moment of casting rather than memorizing does not greatly expand the *power* of the caster, but it does increase their *flexibility*. The best part of it all was that instead of seeing an overall rise in the use of spells like fireball and lightning bolt, I saw a decrease in their use, at the expense of more miscellaneous spells. Why is this? Because when a wizard has to sit down and choose all of his spells before hand, it becomes hard for him to sacrifice what he sees as truly effective spells for what are generally more interesting and "colorful" spells. That's not bad roleplaying, just sensical. But if you don't have to make those decisions before hand, then situationas will arise where the wizard ends up using those colroful spells. Since using my system mages have gone from invisible fireball throwers to wizards who use most of the spells in their repitoires with great frequency. Same with clerics. Just replace fireball with cure spells. Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:56:44 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? In a message dated 98-07-19 17:22:32 EDT, you write: << A friend of mine is wondering why a land like Thyatis should land it's invasion force via galleys. Why not creating some gates and conquering through another plane? There are definitely enough mages and clerics to do this. Same strategy would have been better for Alphatis during WotI to battle Glantri. >> This is a very good point, the Alphatians have the ability to do this based on module M2 (the Alphatian force uses a magical portal to place their army right next to the city of Alpha). - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:56:14 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? James Ruhland wrote: > > When folks move to a new country, they generally don't completely forget > their past affiliations, and start falling in love with their old native > land's historical foes. Just my experience, IRL, is all. Karameikos didn't fall in love with Alphatia. She say a empire that would further her own goals. > Thyatis did exactly what Stefan wanted: Stefan wanted a "free hand" to mold > a nation in his own image, and he wanted Thyatis to stand in the backround, > "just in case" someone got any ideas about invading & displacing him (thus > the "Grand Duchy" pantomome). Stefan wanted a kingdom. He couldn't have one at first but he did everything he could to have one if not in name at first. The war between Thyatis and Alphatia gave him the chance to get all of it. A well played hand that too patience and forsight. Highly commendable, I think. > If you get exactly what you want (as Karameikos has always gotten), you > shouldn't "sell out" your allies and "betray" them (thouse are WotI > adjectives for what Stefan did, not mine; probably the first and last time > they were honest about his actions). Where do you get the idea that Karameikos should be satisfied? There's not a nation on Mystara (or Earth) that cuts back its wants unless faced with trouble. Thyatis was never an ally to Karameikos, it was the 'parent'. Only now can Thyatis become an ally and not the owner. > Again, that would be true. . . .*if* he weren't *still*, after WotI, > cozying up to Alphatia/NACE. Alphatia is gone. NACE is a poor substitute for that empire and I question why Stefan would be cozy with anyone so far away. Or unlikely to lend aid when needed. To me, it looks like Karameikos is the stronger partner in that relationship. > IMO, good arguments have been put forth that Thyatis get back some of this > "diversity", rather than becoming a homogeneous nation. Thyatis never had diversity. It had conquered lands. Its time Thyatis found its own culture instead. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:04:02 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Geoff Gander wrote: > > Thyatis has been in the gutter long enough - 1016 should be the year that > it begins to move on surer footing once again. There are many suitable > "popular" wars that could be fought, with relatively low cost (IMO). It's in the gutter because that is where it belongs. There's so much wrong with Thyatis that needs to be worked through and conquering more lands is not the answer. > 1. Retake Ochalea You tossing away a perfectly good nation that has its own character to that mongrel dog of an empire. > 2. Expand in Davania. They can't even feed their own people. Who's going to want to expand Davania except those that want to be as far away as possible in a collapse. And its coming. > 3. Retake Westrourke. Duke Firestorm needs to receive a lesson in > loyalty. Nuff 'said. A lesson in loyalty or how to be dragged down with the rest? > 4. Retake Tameronikas. After all these years, I doubt they would see themselves as Thyatian. As for Tel Akbir, its time it was reclaimed by Ylaruam if only to save it from the fall of Thyatis. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:10:09 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > > At 01.10 18/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > >As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk > >into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic > >enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much of > >an economy... > > Are you sure? > I think Australia, India, Canada and all the major colonies would have been > able to sustain themselves withouth the need of goods coming from Britain, > though I doubt they would have continued with the Empire. This is the best example of why NACE is impractical. You wouldn't have seen Australia, India, and Canada attempt to reform the British Empire. In fact, I think they may have even broke away without it having to be destroyed. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:23:14 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis >6. Thyatis needs a military victory > > Really? > But if this should be true, why not conquering > Hule, what's a constant threat to Thyatian colonies. > And don't tell me, that Thyatis would not be able > to do this because of the distance. Hey, and while they're at it, why not conquer Alphatia's folating continent? It's one thing to fight Hule (i'm all in favor of this), but it's quite another to "conquer" Hule. Hule is a vastly powerful nation with incredible resources--and they can beat the Thyatians at their own game of manipulations, politics, and betrayal. A Thyatis-Hule conflict should be a lng-term state of hostility, similar to what existed between Alphatia and Thyatis during the past millennium. If you accept the logic that Thyatis needs a quick military victory, then Ylaruam or Minrothad are by far the best targets (note--I don't buy the argument that they need to conquer someone, but some seem to). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 04:24:33 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - RPG Setting Jingoism Note: While this rant is a response to an individual, it is meant to address the whole. It never ceases to amaze me how if a person likes something, they can overlook its flaws, but if they don't like something, they try to magnify these flaws into sins. Glen Sprigg meandered fecklessly... > >You know, I am always wondering in which accessories does it say "NPCs rule > >and your PCs suck". I haven't seen anything like that in my copies. Perhaps > >you can provide examples? > > > While it never specifically words it that way, the impression is very > strong. The Realms is a setting that does what it can to present its NPC's very strongly. Certain chracters are given a lot of attention, and some are very powerful. I don't know how this implies that the designers think these NPC's are are more important than PC's. Seems to me the importance of PC's is a DM call, not the setting's. I never got the impression that PC's are pond scum. Actually, given how little these NPC's sometimes do, I get quite the opposite. As a DM who occasionally runs games in the Realms, I never once had any problem with the PC's doing interesting and heroic things. My players, even on the rare occasions they have interacted wtih the more common NPC's, never felt like two-bit players in a novel. If a DM runs his campaigns this way, it is his own fault, not the setting. To keep things relative to the list... Howzabout Glantri? I love Glantri, it was the first Gaz I ever bought. But if there was ever a setting that one could say implied that the NPC's were far more important, its Glantri. All these princes and wizards in a highly stratified society, how is a PC to get ahead? Howzabout Alphatia? How is a piddly little party of adventurers going to compare to ONE THOUSAND 36th level wizards? If this is the number of powerful wizards just on the ruling council, how many more 20th+ level spellcasters are wandering the land? So much for getting ahead, or being distinctive in a crowd. So is it OK in Mystara to have a large number of powerful people in positions unlikely to be obtained by PC's, but it's not OK if it is in the Realms? > Starting with the Avatar trilogy, the Realms 'adventures' became > interactive novels in which the DM led the party by the nose and no matter > what the PCs attempted to do, Elminster or some god would fix their > 'mistakes.' Your right, the Avatar series of modules sucked. With all the railroading, you needed a conductor, not a DM. But a module trilogy does not an entire setting make. And since I own very few FR modules, it ends up a moot point. I would also add that this railroading is not a Realms thing, it was the state of many of TSR's modules at the time. Hell, it was a RPG thing in general, not just AD&D. And many RPG companies still put out these kind of adventures. So few adventures are put out for AD&D or FR, so I find it hard to base a viewpoint on such a small aspect of a setting. The amount of source material outweighs adventures by 20 to 1 or more. It would be like saying Mystara is a silly, poorly written joke based on reading Ierendi. The Seven Sisters is one of the worst examples of this; it's > not an adventure, but it describes seven NPCs of truly disgusting power. More disgusting that 1000 36th level wizards? What you fail to mention is that the book gives extensive background and personal information, and there is a complete, in-game rationale for their power. Just like there is an in-game reason for Etienne and Drachenfels level of power. > Picture this conversation between a player and the DM. > > Player: Okay, I'm going to research a ninth-level spell that allows me to > cast more than one spell at a time. The spells go off together, and can be > any spells of up to seventh-level. > > DM: That's so unbalancing to the game you're never going to succeed. > > Player: But the Simbul can do it! > > DM: She's an NPC. > > Player: Boy, that's really fair. > > See what I mean? Nope, since it wouldn't happen in my games. The above sounds like poor DM'ing, not a fault with a setting. If the player brought me a spell from a book and said they wanted to create it through spell research, I would look it over and decide if it was OK. If I didn't like it, they couldn't have it, but I also wouldn't just leave it as is for NPC's. > >Wrong. The "heroic" stuff that NPCs do was written about, but it wasn't the > >*only* heroic stuff in FR. After all, it's rather hard for TSR writers to > >know what heroic stuff your PCs do. > > > They didn't leave much for the PCs to do. Huh? Isn't this the DM's job? Let's face it, there is no perfect setting. If a person actually finds a setting to be _perfect_, they're probably either easily satisfied or not looking close enough. FR has its problems, and so does Mystara. But, for Cthulhu's sake, stop trying to tell us FR's problems are insurmountable crimes, especially when they are based on "impressions" that many do not have. Although I am very fond of both settings, I do like Mystara more. This is why I am here day after day running this list. But I have to say I am often amused at the superiority some feel when it comes to one's setting of choice. Mystara is a great setting with a lot to offer, to both new and experienced games. It is rich in color and history, scenery and characters. But you know what? It ain't Truth or the Gospel. It is just a setting. I often see people voicing what they think makes Mystara so great. The problem is that many of the the things they say are not singular to Mystara, at least not in any sort of objective way. If people on other mailing lists were to sit around and talk about what makes their setting so great, they are likely to say the same things. Setting jingoism is of little use, and it certainly isn't going to help bring the setting back. Sitting sround bashing other settings just makes the list and Mystara fans look arrogant. I don't if someone doesn't like FR. That's fine. I am not going off on this rant just because someone made silly accustions about a setting I like. I am a firm believer in tolerance, which is what I am trying to defend. Don't like like something innocus? Fine, move on with your life. Certainly there are better things to rail against in this world than a simple _game_ setting that doesn't work for you. If people put as much effort into fighting hate crime or drug abuse as they do badmouthing simple things like game settings, the world would probably be a wee bit better off, eh? Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #525 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 526 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - The Empire of the Great Khan Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - P. Ark, updated data Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts Re: [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (Long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:34:05 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Empire of the Great Khan << Empire of the Great Khan? :) >> Oh, you know that? Then you probably also know that I'm planning to overran the Jennites and shove back the Alphatians into the sea. After that I will make my plany for conquering the rest of the world. :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:34:11 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? << 1) Perhaps, but that doesn't nessissarily turn one's back *completly* on your own people and make friends with folks who have killed many of them, and stay friends with such people *after* the crisis is over. >> Funny, but the U.S.A did exactly that. They defected from the British Empire and some years later they helped France against the Britains. Why are you so baffled? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:34:12 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Fabrizio! No, no, no, what have you done? Hasn't Glantri got more enough benefits in the past while nobody seemed to care for the Ethengars? Jamuga Khan "The mingams from the Empire of the Great Khan are heading to Glantri now." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:34:10 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? << I'd prefer, myself, that they use a carrot rather than a stick approach, myself. I don't always want to be the bad guy. If that's the case, then Osterhaus should be emperor. He'd make a dynamic villian & focus for hate. >> There you have the reason: It's all a big plot of T-Bone! :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:34:09 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do! << I do hope you stick around for a while -- I think these rough'n'ready boys could do with a bit more of the feminine perspective in their midst! ;-) >> Hm, probably that's the reason that I've never seen a women playing good RPG in any group. OTOH I know that there were once a group with two women who played even harder as the men. At least you can't accuse me of being chauvinistic as I always had the opinion that chauvinistic men cannot survive in a world like Mystara. (O.k., I have to admit that rathanos is a REALLY BIG exception. :-) ) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:24:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - P. Ark, updated data At 02:02 PM 7/19/98 EDT, you wrote: >>>I have completed the entire Princess Ark series, including the Log.<< (Glen) > >You might want to have a look at the material compiled in the boxed set >Champions of Mystara, which introduced some updated info and much needed >editorial corrections -- such as problems with the dates use in the original >P. Ark logs. There is additional info as well. Just a thought... > I do plan to go over that stuff; there were a few typos and such that I found while I was typing. Of course, the first 15 logs aren't in the boxed set. But I'll go over the rest before I'm done. BTW, would I be permitted to give this stuff to other people on the list through private E-mail? With all appropriate disclaimers, of course, and I wouldn't think of putting it on a web site. I have had one person ask me privately for my files, but I don't want to get into legal ca-ca for doing something I'm not supposed to do. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:41:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >> sanitizing the demons and devils and such (Baatzeau >> and Ta'nari, or whatever they've disguised them as), > >Oh, they're not disquised. They just got rid of the Type ***. Let's >see, a Balor was a Type VI demon and a Marilith was a Type V demon both >of which are Tanar'ri, etc. > If someone has a problem with calling them tanar'ri and baatezu, then call the demons and devils! That's what I do, and what is TSR/WotC going to do about it? Do they even care? Of course not! It's my game, so I can do what I want with it. And guess what? So can you! >> Reading Gaz1 I had the impression of Karameikos being in no way subject to >> Thyatis, they were friendly neighbors, nothing more. True, there're many >> Thyatian natives in Karameikos, but this is true for Glantri, Darokin and >> Ierendi too. > >Karameikos was still part of the empire though it had more freedom than >other duchies. > WARNING!! WARNING!! INCORRECT!! INCORRECT!! Karameikos was NOT a duchy of Thyatis. Once Stefan took over, Karameikos was an independent, autonomous state. He used the Grand Duchy appellation to discourage anyone else from invading, implying that Thyatis would protect Karameikos. But Stefan was not beholden to Thyatis in any way at all. >You really shouldn't go on impressions (especially second hand ones). >After all, to the RPGers as a whole, Mystara is the 'beginners' world >and that impression looks to have stuck. The Seven Sisters is an >accessory describing seven NPCs of the Realms. They are no more >disgusting that Etienne or a council of 1000 wizards of 36th level. You >apparently have little knowledge of the Realms and shouldn't be making >misleading assumptions. > I own a few Realms items; I used to have more, but I got rid of them because I got tired of seeing NPCs who could wipe the floor with any PCs I cared to bring into their world. I have both played and DMed Realms games. I know what I'm talking about; these aren't second-hand impressions. And neither Etienne nor the entire council of Alphatia can do what the Seven Sisters can do. And Etienne is an Immortal. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:12:25 EDT From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves You folks seem sharp, so maybe someone out there can help me with a Mystaran nitpick.... Is there any general consensus out there as to which former Alfheim clans now dwell in Karameikos, and in which dominion each of these clans has settled? DRAGON Magazine #189 says that clans Chossum, Erendyl, and Red Arrow made the trek to Karameikos, and that clan Erendyl petitioned for a separate domain in the Radlebb Woods. This statement seems to be contradicted in PWA Vol. 3 (AC 1012) which states that King Doriath (an Erendyl) and his court are in Wendar. Seems to me that in one of the Net Almanacs I saw an entry hinting that the Feadil clan was now in Karameikos. If anyone out there can help me, I'd really appreciate it. Dem mero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:21:38 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts Hello! I looked through the first ten digests and came up with this list of MML firsts. Enjoy! v1.n001 First Post: Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:59:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Mystaran acronyms First Admin Post: Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:11:40 -0600 From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [Mystara] It Is Alive... First "Who is Gareth?" Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 21:40:31 EST From: nbamba@juno.com (Nicholas C Bambakidis) Subject: [Mystara] Gareth First Net Timeline: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:42:50 +1000 From: s9406058@bohm.anu.edu.au (Stan) Subject: [Mystara] Events for Gombar and Suma'a AC 1014 v1.n002 First Posting of the FAQ: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:01:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: [Mystara] Mystara FAQ v2.0 First Double Posting: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:36:36 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [Mystara] The Mother of all Mystara Indexes First "Intro Post": Date: Mon, 10 Feb 97 14:30:00 EST From: emayers@cosi.stockton.edu (Eric Mayers) Subject: [none] First Post By a TSR author: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: TSRBruce@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Patera/Kompor-Thap First Post With Some Sort of File Attachment: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:27:14 -0500 (EST) From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mystara] Patera/Kompor-Thap First Spam: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:28:30 -0800 From: University Services-Internships & Careers Subject: [Mystara] ANNOUNCE> Africa/Brazil: Proj DIRs/Interns/Volunteers (deadline/summer) v1.n005 First Mention of TSR's Old Net Policy: From: Leroy Van Camp III Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Mystara] Mucho Replies to Digest #1 First Mention of Forgotten Realms: From: Sir George Anonymous Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 15:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Mystara] Re: mystara-digest V1 #4 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:30:07 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts At 20:21 19 07 98 -0500, Aaron wrote: >Hello! I looked through the first ten digests and came up with this list >of MML firsts. Enjoy! > > > >v1.n001 Actuall if you look at the dates, not to mention the content you'll see that the digests labelled as v1.n001 and v1.n002 on the archive site actually end up being both from volume 2 of the digest. The others were wiped during this changeover period (as were the first 15 odd copies of v2.n001) Do you have access to change this Leroy? I know that I for one have the original digests from these periods. Otherwise, Aaron, it's always nice to go back over old terrain. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:51:52 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) In a message dated 98-07-19 10:19:08 EDT, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes: > Hmmm... Tredorian? Gallatia Allatrian? Okay, you got me there -- DotE (1989) does pre-date the Princess Ark series (starting in 1990) by about a year. At that point the two empires seem to have reached parity -- the rise of Alphatia's reputation and the further decline of that of Thyatis picked up in the years that followed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? In a message dated 98-07-19 11:35:24 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > This is one of the few areas in Mystara where a realistic "competing > claims" scenario is set up, with both Ylaruam & Thyatis having > (theoretical) claim to each other's territory, and ethnic Alaysians & > Thyatians living on both sides of the border. Although it is not explicitly stated, it is strongly implied that a similar situation exists along all of Darokin's borders -- many of the Darokinians nearest each border are probably of the same ethnic background as those on the other side. Of course, Darokin's borders seem to have been set by default to whatever the other side didn't really want. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:24 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) In a message dated 98-07-19 17:22:10 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: > The original Heldanners weren't forgotten, look at the rebels in JA and > Net-Almanacs. .... Which would suggest that the PWAs and all products between X2 and JA did indeed forget about them, right? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:19 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis In a message dated 98-07-19 17:26:03 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > 4. Ochalea and the Pearl Islands defected. > > No reason known. The way the had become > part of the empire was not correct in the first > place, but this is 1000 years ago. Perhaps > Korotiku and Koryis told the rulers better to > stay out of the war. Their should be pro-Thyatian > factions in both kingdoms. One problem with this idea is that Korotiku was in the same group/faction as Rad -- so the last thing he would have wanted to do was undermine the Thyatian war effort. WotI credits Ilsundal with causing these secessions -- but for him to have been able to do so, those two nations must have been able to maintain an underlying resentment of Thyatian domination for over a thousand years. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:17 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 In a message dated 98-07-19 18:16:38 EDT, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > > 2. Expand in Davania. > > They can't even feed their own people. Who's going to want to expand > Davania except those that want to be as far away as possible in a > collapse. And its coming. On the other hand, if they find a lightly inhabited part of Davania, colonize it, farm it, and ship food back to Thyatis, that would help with feeding their people -- at least until this new "lifeline" is cut in some future crisis. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:39 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 In a message dated 98-07-19 14:35:19 EDT, au998@freenet.carleton.ca writes: > Thyatis has been in the gutter long enough - 1016 should be the year that > it begins to move on surer footing once again. There are many suitable > "popular" wars that could be fought, with relatively low cost (IMO). Actually I think that the best course of action for Thyatis would be to put an end to its aggressive wars -- it has been through quite a few in the past few years and has only come to grief because of them. > 1. Retake Ochalea. Not a good idea unless the Ochaleans want back in. A better course of action would be to recognize their independence, forge treaties of alliance and "friendship" with them, and then form closer ties until the prospect of rejoining Thyatis actually seems appealing to them. Until then, Thyatis is better off without them. Ditto for the Pearl Islands. > 2. Expand in Davania. Well, since I'm in charge of that department - wait > and see. *knowing look to fellow Davania team members* That one is a good idea -- although the emphasis should shift from the Hinterlands to the many uninhabited areas. > 3. Retake Westrourke. Definitely a bad idea. Negotiate the borders on the Isle of Dawn with NACE - -- Thyatis can always come back to this area later. For now, stabilization of existing frontiers would be a better idea. > 4. Retake Tameronikas. If the Kin faction have gained the upper hand in Ylaruam and are causing problems for Thyatis, I would go along with this one -- otherwise, no. The key is the old PR war -- Thyatis should try to "liberate" that city rather than "conquer" it. But contrary to the opinions of those who say that Thyatis needs a major military victory, I must dissent -- every war that Thyatis starts scares the other nations into becoming more wary of the Empire's intentions. What Thyatis needs to do is secure its borders before it loses any more territory and institute the reforms that are needed to save it from utter collapse. Expansion should be directed in directions where resistance is unlikely -- for example, to uninhabited parts of Davania. And they should definitely try to form friendships and alliances with the various small and independent nations of Brun -- such efforts will pay off later as these nations become client states of Thyatis and eventually are so dependent on Thyatis that they can be absorbed into the Empire. However, if Thyatis continues to make war on all of its neighbors and does nothing to address its internal social problems, then a complete collapse is what it deserves. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:20 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... In a message dated 98-07-19 17:25:05 EDT, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > NACE, NAE or ACE.. whatever its called is a bad idea. There may have > been some that wanted to bring the remains of Alphatia together but > there's too much distance and too much destruction for things to be so > easy to do so. And Thyatis shouldn't be a threat for a long time as it > attempts heal itself. So, that shouldn't be a motivation for a new > Alphatia. I think that there is an obvious answer to what should happen with NACE: it should go the way of the real world "Commonwealth of Independent States" that succeeded the Soviet Union. In other words, NACE should break up as soon as it is faced with its first major crisis -- although the core Alphatian areas that don't break away may well keep the old name. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:34 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Converting SC to D&D (Long) In a message dated 98-07-19 14:36:50 EDT, au998@freenet.carleton.ca writes: > If it does go back to D&D, then perhaps the NPCs given in the sourcebooks > should be given the powers described in Dragon, since these were written > for D&D anyway? Which "powers" are you referring to? As I recall, none of the crew of the Princess Ark were afflicted by the Red Curse, and very few of them had non-standard special abilities. But I have noticed after reviewing the D&D material on cinnabar and cinnabryl that the "Red Steel" boxed set did change things a bit more than I had remembered. Comparing that Dragon article with the later "Red Steel" boxed set, I would reach the following conclusions about the Red Curse in its original form: Area of Effect: The Red Curse was originally stated as affecting the Savage Coast, but at that time the region does not seem to have been clearly defined -- however, from the context as well as later references I would infer that the area affected was the region around the Gulf of Hule, from Slagovich to Cimmaron County -- and even within that region many were able to escape its effects. It appears that the rest of the region (from Cimarron County to Herath) received some slight contamination, enough to adversely affect magical detection and coat things with a fine red dust but not enough to poison the inhabitants. Timing of Effects: The first effects of the Red Curse used to manifest after a number of weeks (not days) equal to the character's constitution scores. As a result, the region was far less isolated that it became after AC 1009 -- people could visit or leave the region for somewhat longer periods before nasty things started to happen to them. Effects of Curse: Most people in the affected areas received one "degree of contamination" as per the Princess Ark article. The effects on natives and long term visitors seem to have been as follows: 1) Intelligence and wisdom are reduced by by about a third (roll 3d4 rather than 3d6 for these ability scores). 2) Limits on spellcasting power apply: Maximum spell ability is equal to relevant prime requisite minus 9. This is a major penalty under D&D rules and even has a slight effect under AD&D rules. 3) Maximum life span is reduced by 20%. 4) One point of constitution is lost. 5) No Legacy or other special ability is gained. Note that most rulers of the region would have had little reason to do anything to reverse the above effects on the lower classes -- they could still do their work, and their dulled mental abilities would have made them less troublesome to their "betters". Usage of cinnabryl (and the priestly version of the "Maintain" spell, which was probably granted soon after the discovery of cinnabryl) reduce these effects somewhat for those individuals who were able to keep this precious material on their persons: 1) Intelligence and wisdom were restored to their normal levels (natives would add +6 to the original score of 3d4). 2) Spellcasting limits would still apply, but the restored/improved ability scores would be used for this purpose. 3) Normal life span is restored. 4) The lost point of constitution is not regained. 5) No Legacy or special ability is gained. Adventurers from the Savage Coast would probably have been in this category. After much trial and error (sometimes with fatal results), adventurers from that region would have learned to manage their cinnabryl, keeping it in direct contact with their persons while in the cursed regions and putting it away when they are elsewhere. Since they have no special abilities granted by the Curse, they can function equally well within and without the cursed regions as long as they take the proper precautions. Around 1000 AC the Inheritors learned how to boost their levels of contamination and gain special abilities from the Red Curse. Each degree of contamination above the first required a number of doses of seed of cinnabar equal to the next degree of contamination (so gaining the first "Legacy" requires two doses). Each degree of contamination beyond the first grants one special ability and increases life span by one year per level of the character but costs one point of constitution -- the article says one per does of cinnabar, but if that rule were used then attaining a degree of contamination of 10+ would be impossible. The special abilities granted do vary considerably from the Red Steel list of Legacies. The disasters of AC 1009 increased not only the area affected by the curse but its intensity. The City States and southern Hule escaped from the Red Curse, but the rest of the Savage Coast as far west as Herath and even beyond felt the full effects of the curse for the first time. From that time on normal natives of the area received two levels rather than just one level of contamination -- now nearly everybody had a "Legacy" from the Curse. The curse seems to have been modifed as follows: 1) Intelligence and wisdom were no longer affected; instead, a randomly determined ability score associated with the character's initial Legacy was reduced by 2d4 points. For below average characters, this reduction was often fatal. For the earliest Inheritors, the affected ability would be constitution (with the loss assumed to have been absorbed and compensated for already). For other natives, the affected ability score would be determined when the first Legacy is rolled for. 2) Spellcasting is no longer directly affected. 3) Life span is no longer affected, except for the greater likelihood of immediate death from ability score losses. 4) Constitution was no longer lost unless it was the ability score relevant to the acquired Legacy. 5) The available Legacies changed to match the list in "Red Steel". Note that Legacies of people who did not use cinnabryl could become rather nasty and uncontrollable. Under the more virulent form of the Red Curse, cinnabryl would restore all but one point of the lost ability score and keep the Legacy under control, with its hideous side effects kept in check. Inheritors would gain no additional longevity from further contamination, but past gains would not be lost. Those who have access to both the Dragon article and "Red Steel" might wish to use the following table for additional Legacies: d20 roll Result 1-12 Consult table in Dragon article and roll on the appropriate special ability table. One point of constitution is lost unless other factors intervene. 13-16 Roll on "Red Steel" table for region #(die roll - 12). 17-18 Roll on "Red Steel" table for current region. 19-20 Select a current "Red Steel" Legacy randomly, and then select an associated Legacy (according to the tables in "Red Steel") randomly. If the character's existing Legacies are all from the Dragon article and they have no obvious "associated" Legacies, roll d12 and consulte the table in Dragon article. Most of the special abilities in the Dragon article are independent of one another, but a few are obviously associated -- for example, the series "Anti-Magic I" through "Anti-Magic IV". For such abilities, the "associated" Legacy would be the next such ability in sequence -- for example, for a character with "Anti-Magic II", the "associated" Legacy would be "Anti- Magic III". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:52:22 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? In a message dated 98-07-19 17:22:34 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes: > A friend of mine is wondering why a land like Thyatis should > land it's invasion force via galleys. Why not creating some > gates and conquering through another plane? There are > definitely enough mages and clerics to do this. There are two potential problems with using magical gates to transport your troops: 1) Do you have enough magical power available to get a large number of troops through at once? Remember that the first ones through have to hold their position against any enemies until the rest are able to join them. 2) If anything unexpected happens to your wizards, then the troops are stranded. The same thing is true to an extent for mundane ships, but ships (unlike wizards) are not likely to accompany the troops after they land and participate in the battle as a major combatant and therefore a major target. I am not saying that this strategy should not be tried -- just that most generals would weigh the pros and cons carefully before carrying it out. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #526 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 527 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Alternate "Thyatis" Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Ethic Hetrogenety Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis RE: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Complex villians. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:04:03 -0600 (MDT) From: John Hare Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 Ambreville@aol.com wrote: > > > stuff back into SC rakasta against my wishes. Okay!? As far as the generic > > rakasta and lupins being used vs. their subraces made available in Dragon, > > that's entirely up to anyone since the material was optional. Just the facts, > > Ma'am! > > > Woah. I guess this is a touchy subject. > > One question concerning Rakasta. On the Isle of Dread, there is a Rakasta > tribe. Where exactly does this group originate from? It can be from almost anywhere. Blown off course and deposited here. Their original culture would have changed by the simple nessecity of staying alive. As I recall the group was semi nomadic. So any nomad type lifestyle could be appropriate. "If death is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." -Solomon Short _A Season for Slaughter_ John Hare *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:21:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside For the longest time you're going to think that this has no bearing on the topic we are discussing here (Mystara), but hopefully it will become clear as to the relivance. > > You know, I am always wondering in which accessories does it say "NPCs rule > and your PCs suck". I haven't seen anything like that in my copies. Perhaps > you can provide examples? > The Seven Sisters (an otherwise good product, but it's tone is *deffinately* infused with the "NPCs are better than PCs" attitude). Spellbound (all the really "significant" "future projections" are left in the hands of NPCs [Symbul, Witches], while PCs act on the margins) Ruins of Zhentil Keep (the "important" stuff, the nuking itself, happens "offstage", as a result of NPC actions. PCs are, again, the "supporting cast" in this epic event). Lands of Intrigue (again, the "heroic" stuff, I.E. the reunification of Tethyr, happens as a "prior event" and the set up has the PCs arriving in the anticlimax). Of course, this general feeling all started IMO with the "Godswar" modules, which left, largely, the PCs to be bystanders while the actions various NPCs played out, with the PCs as an audience. A lot of this has to do with novels, and the novels being allowed to drive the development of the gameworld. In The Begining: in the begining there was the Dragonlance Saga, and all was good: books and modules. The books were good (some might even say great), and the modules allowed folks to play through the campaign, while being different enough from the novels themselves to offer numerous surprises for the players. The FR followed suit with such things as Curse of the Azure Bonds. But then things took a turn for the worse. The world began to revolve around novel-based NPCs and old characters from Ed "Elminster" Greenwood's PnP campaign. The "Godswar" saga, IIRC, was the last series of modules tied in with books: the protaganists where the NPCs, with the PCs in supporting roles. So they droped doing more modules like these, but the tone of the Realms in published materiels drifted, if anything, further towards an emphasis on NPC heroics & PC religation to support/clean up crew. The thing that ended up crystalizing my views was the simoultanious arrival of two products (by mail order), one for the FR, one for FASA's Shadowrun game. The SR product was Threats: a fine compendium of nefarious organizations and individuals with which to challenge the PCs (some of which were quite frightening). The FR product was the Hero's Lorebook: a compendium of all the NPCs who do the real work of the realms. The difference in tone was, and is stark. Novels are a good illustration of this. TSR novels all (or at least all the ones I'm familiar with) end with a successful conclusion (perhaps after a trilogy, but none the less successfuly). The hero's win, a threat is eliminated or diminished (I.E. Zhentil Keep suffers Orbital Bombardment, Tethyr is unified, villians die). Over time, the gameworld becomes, IMO, less threatening and dangerous as a result (good kingdoms prosper, evil ones suffer losses, villians are eliminated, and hero's exalted). In Shadowrun this is far from the case. SR authors are willing to take risks, are willing to have their works end on a "down" note. Best examples are Burning Bright (Chicago is nuked [Cermak Blast: right in the area FASA is HQ'd IRL, actually], and the protaganists left in a bug-infested hell) and the 2057 election (few SR characters were/are loved as much as The Big 'D' was. But they took the bold step of killing Dunkelezahn.) Even in the novels where the hero's succeed, and find whatever it is they are looking for, you're often left with a sense of foreboding: you've learned information, but you've learned just how ignorant you are. . . . This sets a very different "tone" for each world: In the SR 5th Age, you get the sense that each year the world is increasingly dangerous. In FR Faerun, you get the sense that each year the place is safer (after all, the bungling Zhentarim, Red Wizards, etc. never succeed at anything, and are *always* PORTRAYED as bunglers by comparison to NPCs such as the Symbul & Elminster.) Back to FR products, and another example: the Realms of Intrigue set *could* have been published as "taking place" just before or just after the reunification of Tethyr. If it was published with the premise that it existed "just before" the reunification, then tips/adventure plotlines for scripting PCs into the epic story of the stuggle for Tethyr (a la Dragonlance). By scripting it just after the place was reunified under a good ruler, it makes the NPCs the "protagonists" of the story, and the PCs are supporting cast/clean up crew: they "arrive" on the scene just after the conclusion of an epic struggle. *yawn*. Ok, at this point, some (if not many) are saying "well, you don't *HAVE* to follow what TSR does. You can make your PCs the hero's of anything they care to be." Two points on that: 1) the game products (as discussed above) set a general "tone" of the gameworld; c.f. the difference bettween SR & FR. The "tone" of "official" published materiel: A) deminishes the importants of PCs as protagonists. B) makes the world seem more safe, less dangerous as time goes by (the Harpers never suffer a significant, memorable setback, the "Black Network" never achieves a significant, memorable victory). 2) I don't *need* TSR accessories to make PCs protagonists. Setting up a game world where you, in effect, IMO, encourage people to decide that they don't need your products, and won't find an interesting adventure putting PCs in the central roles, is a *bad* policy for a game company that want's to sell products. Take another, non-FR (but TSR) example: Return of the Eight. Return of the Eight has PCs interacting with some of the most legendary persons of not only Greyhawk, but AD&D as a whole (who hasn't heard of Tenser?). HOWEVER: the PCs are the *central* hero's of the epic. It is the great and powerful Circle of Eight that is in the backround. The module is a rip-roaring good time, in effect somewhat similar to X2: PCs are involved in "rescuing" one of the most noitable persons (actually, two this time) of the game world. In FR products, it's usually Elminster who saves the PCs bacon, not the other way around. A *big* difference. Point of all this is both to answer Solmyr's question, and a "general tip" to would be game designers: NPCs should *never* be the most important people in the story. They may be more powerful, more knowlegable, and more wise than the PCs. But they should *never* be more heroic than the PCs. RPGs are not novels. PCs are the protagonists. Also, one has to be careful what one does. Someone said that Thyatis (I.E.) shouldn't be eliminated because it makes a good villian. IMO, a "good villian" is someone or some organization (like Hule) that can put the *fear* of GOD into the PCs. A world of bungling, snidely-whiplash "villian" that is always foiled, and that suffers plagues, famines, riots, defeats, secessions, Orbital Bombardment, and the scorn of NPCs (a la the Symbul's contempt for the Red Wizards, which isn't just a contempt for their evil, but for their bungling stupidity). . .er, where was I? Oh, yah: a world of such "villians" is not a world where PCs will *fear* such villians. Novels & accessories that don't encourage a sense of foreboding are not successful game novels, IMO (unless you're running an evil campaign, and the PCs are opposed by folks like Drzzt du Urden). That's why an accessory like Threats is/was so good. Some of the Threats were somewhat silly. But even the silly ones could be presented in a way that would give PCs nightmares. [Btw, I did pick up the "Villian's Lorebook" for FR, which came out reciently. It was ok. But what struck me was how many of these folks were "officially" dead or otherwise disposed of. Again, not likely to make PCs hearts jump when they're opposed by some bungler who's already been defeated numerous times.] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Recovery via allies. On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > > > Benedict Arnold was a collaborator for the British and is still reviled > > today by the Americans. But to the British, he was a patriot, as much so > as > > Washington and his buddies were traitors. > > > If Stefan were of Alphatian decent, you'd have a very strong point, and no > one could criticize his ties to his homeland. However, he isn't. Actually the point is very good. To the thytains Stephan is a traitor, to the british Washington was/is a traitor. Any questions? Actually, another good question would be who is benedict? (The traitorus scum :) diego *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:57:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis > > 5. Thyatis starts conquering Brun > No one suggested that they conquer all of Brun. I don't know why you feel the need to distort what other people say in order to make your point, but it is very poor argumentative stile. > Good chance for Alphatia to make new friends. > 1) What Alphatia? It's in the Hollow World. 2) NACE is very busy with it's own problems. Their small armies are scattered all over the place garrissoning their own holdings. They couldn't, as a practical matter, intervene to "save" anyone. > > > 7. Alphatia is recovering faster and better > > Alphatia has not start constant fights after the war, > at least not as big as Thyatis. > Relative to the size/population of the Alphatian OW colonies, I'd dispute this. The Alphatian OW colonies have fought as many (if not more) wars. Remember all the Zandor initiated things, and also that the Alphatian colonies were involved in the major war that Thyatis fought since the WotI war. > > 9. Thyatian virtues have been switched to Alphatia > You don't mind the fact that this happened for your own reasons, but IMO it's bad game-design to do so, for any nation. > > 10. The Slavery in Alphatia is vanishing > > Indeed there are some signs that the slavery is > vanishing in the NACE. > Asside from the special case of Esterhold (if they hadn't freed 'em, their'd be *NO* chance of keeping the place), what evidence do you have that it is disapering in other areas where it existed (assuming a "given" that it never took root in Norwold at all)? Source & Page # would be nice. > This were already in the > TSR almanacs, and it seems that most of us like > it this way. But we might explain it this way: > Slavery and mistreatment of servants and freemen > is an old Alphatian tradition, but only in the mainland > and some other places like Esterhold. What if this > attitude wasn't so strong in Bellissaria, Norwold, the > Alatians, Aquas and the Isle of Dawn? > IMO, the argument that it didn't exist in Norwold is a good one. Alatians is/are a special case: Gaity may not have had slaves, but Aeria probably would have (high-Alphatian mage environment). Isle of Dawn is a special case: perhaps with Thyatis (& citizenship) so close, few areas had slaves (though most Thothians seem to live lives little different from that of slaves, going on what little info is available on them, and the life of an Alphatian "servant"-class person is also not much better. You have the "right" not to be killed at random, but any Thyatian slave can make the same claim). Bellissaria > 11. Future events? > > Thyatis should reconsider their attitude against slavery > as the time on the Outer World might be over for that. > Absolutely agree. > An attack of Alphatian troops on Aegos and Dunadale > might help to restore the status quo before the war as > Alphatia would get back their old territories and the > colonies wouldn't want to leave the empire or would > return. > They'd be beaten, and how about they loose Hillvale & Aeria for their troubles? Contrary to popular belief in some circles, NACE is spread rather thin right now, garrissoning their new capital against monsters and Esterhold against people who for some odd, inexplicable reason don't seem to like them. A counter-offensive on the Isle of Dawn would not be wise, since Thyatis is several times larger (pop wise) than NACE, and stronger than you (especially) give them credit for being. Talk about your "suicidal attacks". . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:01:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai > > You can be assured that I see THIS as inacceptable. > Compared with this Thyatis is faring very well in the > last years. :'-( > I have to agree with you on that one. Mystara's "Mongol Empire" seems to have gone nowhere. Which is, in some respects, unfortunate. Plus, IMO, Moglai was a likable character, whether you saw him as a "villian" or a "hero" he was (at least as portrayed in the Gazzeteers) far smarter, craftier, and more resourceful than he came off in I.E. the wars with the HKs ("Mongol" troops eat Knights for breakfast, IRL.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:12:06 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alternate "Thyatis" > > IMHO it would have been better Thyatis had taken Westrourke, > Redstone, West Portage, Kendach, Septentriona, Furmenglaive > and Caerwicca, but had stopped then to consolidate the Empire. > After that negotiations with Ochalea and the Pearl Islands might > have regained the last losses during the war. > Funny you should mention that, because IMC the PCs (the Thyatian ones) argued much for this, and were *somewhat* successful: they refused to get involved in the conquest of the "Alphatian" half of the IoD, instead setting out for Aegos, with a "stopover" at Ochalea to "encourage" them (ultimately successfully) to rejoin the empire. Thincol, poor slot, still went ahead to try and conquer the IoD, with results somewhat like in the Almanac, but ultimately a more equal stalemate was achieved (with players getting re-envolved at that point to help achieve it; they also got involved in a little grain blight matter, that seems to have fizzled somewhat as a result. . .). More details perhaps at some point if I ever put a timeline up on my website, but anyhow, point is the PCs agreed with the Khan's assessment: better to try and get back "Thyatian" stuff than to go off on a "wild goose chase" > > Besides that, I have not yet heard any good reason what > advantage a conquest of Minrothad, Ierendi or Karameikos > would do to Thyatis. > They are about as valuable (or not) as any other territory, with the advantage of being close by. However, they're also well established, have (generally) lots of friends (which right now Thyatis does not), and it would better serve Thyatis to have happy allies than discontented "occupied" nations (which would also just cause alarm elsewhere, though I don't think NACE would have much near-term oportunity to get directly involved, the rest of the KW would band together to oppose this, unless Thyatis had a *good* reason to declare war on one of these nations, which it doesn't have now. So long as that is the case, Diplo to gain allies would be more fruitfull than troops to gain sullen occupied peoples and an allarmed KW. I could see the WDL expanding by leaps and bounds if Thyatis attacked some nearby nation without cause, and various efforts to "liberate" the place.) I think the Khan and I probably agree more than we seem to (except that he sees more virtues in Alphatia than I do); perhaps it's our cantankerous personalities that cause us to but heads so much. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:18:33 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization > > I start all my games at 1st level and continue with what I see as > the progression level the designers probably figured on. I hand out > the kind of magic and spells I feel are comensurate with the intended > heroic feel of D&D. > Problem IMO would come then as PCs rise in levels: if they're used to being allowed to cast whichever spell they need (and have access to) "on the spot" without having to go through the process of memorizing (and thus making a mistake and not memorizing a spell they'd like to have), then they become rather unstoppable. Of course, the problem is somewhat less in D&D, because their are fewer available spells in any case (unless the PCs reasurch a lot 8-).) > Letting a spellcaster choose from his spell selection at the > moment of casting rather than memorizing does not greatly expand the > *power* of the caster, but it does increase their *flexibility*. > increased flexibility, IMO, equals increased power. Just IMO, as I said, but if they have access at any particular moment to all their spell selection, then the problem of making a "mistake" and not memorizing a certain spell limits them. Also, IMO, it makes players more creative if they have to memorize. Since the "perfect" spell to solve a problem isn't always available, PCs have to improvize more often. > Why is this? Because when a wizard has to sit down and choose > all of his spells before hand, it becomes hard for him to sacrifice > what he sees as truly effective spells for what are generally more > interesting and "colorful" spells. That's not bad roleplaying, just > sensical. > I have to agree with you on this one. Not having to memorize *does* lead to a rise in the use of more "esoteric" spells that might otherwise never be used at all. So that's a good point, and I'll have to consider it further. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:22:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? > > This is a very good point, the Alphatians have the ability to do this based on > module M2 (the Alphatian force uses a magical portal to place their army right > next to the city of Alpha). > WotI saw some limited use of gates & teleportation, mainly by the Glantrians. IMO, both Empires should have made more use of them (to disrupt each other's war efforts, if for no other reason). OTOH, one may "assume" that both empires have/had some significant protections against each other using gates et al for invasions (otherwise, a "First Strike" policy would have been the only way for them to go, because a Gate could have been opened at any time to achieve a surprise invasion/victory). Perhaps that's why Glantri was able to do what neither of the "big powers" did: the defences against such an attack might have been "attuned" to each other, and offered less protection vs. the efforts of outsiders (Glantrians mainly used Teleport themselves, though, so perhaps the "GateWards" blocked them, too). Just a theory. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:25:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > Stefan wanted a kingdom. He couldn't have one at first but he did > everything he could to have one if not in name at first. The war > between Thyatis and Alphatia gave him the chance to get all of it. A > well played hand that too patience and forsight. Highly commendable, I > think. > Highly commendable in the Macievellian sense. Not nessisarrily "Lawful Good" though. > > Where do you get the idea that Karameikos should be satisfied? > You're right that ingratitude does rule international relations. > > Alphatia is gone. NACE is a poor substitute for that empire and I > question why Stefan would be cozy with anyone so far away. Or unlikely > to lend aid when needed. To me, it looks like Karameikos is the > stronger partner in that relationship. > I have no idea why they're doing what they're doing, then. Unless they want to play "poke the bear" and get "parent" Thyatis miffed at them for some reason. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:40:25 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra - Wrong Strategy? In a message dated 98-07-19 17:22:32 EDT, you write: << A friend of mine is wondering why a land like Thyatis should land it's invasion force via galleys. Why not creating some gates and conquering through another plane? There are definitely enough mages and clerics to do this. Same strategy would have been better for Alphatis during WotI to battle Glantri. >> well galleys in lew of gates make for a better game experience. it would be kind of crappy to let the alphatians gate in a few divisions into thyatis city or glantri city. bim bam boom....the war ends before it starts. same thing goes for walled castles. why spend all that cash on walls when a mage can teleport or gate troops in. just game balance. falls in line with why the alphatian mages didn't wish thincol to die. or wish him into the imperial dungeons. if that won't satisfy your question, howabout a truce or unwritten rule. nations don't do that type of troop transport. say both sides obliged that rule until sundsvall was destroyed. the alphatians retaliated by sending the Council to bombard Glantri City. or you could say that the risk of such a force being caught so far behind enemy lines makes it a moot option. let's face it, a gated troop unit would be like a RW airborne paratroop unit. paratroops are dropped behind the lines to add another front to an assault. their survival depends on friendly forces joining up with them relatively soon. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:50:57 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule, Alphatia, and Thyatis In a message dated 98-07-19 17:25:11 EDT, you write: << No problem! The scenario I'm just describing means that the Thyatian legions makes a Blitzkrieg against Minrothad, Ierendi, Karameikos AND Darokin. The next targets are Ylaruam, Soderfjord, Westland and Ostland. Hule and Alphatia would have a free way to attack Thyatis.>> my point exactly. imo and in hydra, thyatis goes on the offensive in slow small steps. none of this blitzkreiging. the number one killer of would-be world conquerers is overextending themselves. minrothad was the original object for conquest. ierendi was assaulted as a precaution. and in my mind thyatis only did that the following year. <> some may go all out with such a offensive. but not i. taking smaller steps limits the damage. such a series of conquests may be successful, but even in victory the thyatian resources would be drained. and yall say i am anti thyatian :) alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:59:05 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis In a message dated 98-07-19 17:26:11 EDT, you write: << 6. Thyatis needs a military victory Really? But if this should be true, why not conquering Hule, what's a constant threat to Thyatian colonies. And don't tell me, that Thyatis would not be able to do this because of the distance. >> a campaign against hule would not be a boon to thyatis. hule poses no direct threat to thyatis. darokin and karameikos make for a good buffer zone. to wage a ware against the huleans would mean crossing troops over those countries. i doubt either would be willing to allow that. and i seriously doubt thyatis would spend the resources to wage war with these two to acquire/reacquire them to gain that passage. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:09:48 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? In a message dated 98-07-19 18:54:28 EDT, you write: <<> 1) Perhaps, but that doesn't nessissarily turn one's back *completly* on >your own people and make friends with folks who have killed many of them, >and stay friends with such people *after* the crisis is over. Funny, but the U.S.A did exactly that. They defected from the British Empire and some years later they helped France against the Britains. Why are you so baffled? >> but the US also aided England several times. aside from military alliances, the US has been a staunch trade partner and political ally of England since the War for Independance. the war of 1812 was not singularly the US helping France. there were several other factors involved in that one. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:13:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ethic Hetrogenety > > Although it is not explicitly stated, it is strongly implied that a similar > situation exists along all of Darokin's borders -- many of the Darokinians > nearest each border are probably of the same ethnic background as > those on the other side. Of course, Darokin's borders seem to have > been set by default to whatever the other side didn't really want. > True, plus Darokin's population (much like Karameikos') consists more of people who came in (immigrants) than who were "thrown in" or "absorbed" (irredentists). Glantri is like that, too. IMO, this shows that Americans, rather than Europeans, wrote this stuff (immigration plays a prominent role, but people found on the "wrong side of a border" because of a war plays a small role). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:20:20 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? <> well minrothad is a trader nation. by bringing minrothad into the imperial fold, thyatis gains a valued trade base. if managed efficiently it could add greatly to the imperial treasury. thyatis could just appoint governors and let the guilds run the trade. minrothad pays its share of tribute/taxes and you have a monetary boon. station a thyatian fleet there and there is little need of the mercenary guild. there is little to be gained from ierendi. conquering it is just a precaution. the only other benefit that comes to mind is that with both island nations in hand, thyatis would be in a good position to dictate policy and authority over the northern section of the sea of dread. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:34:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis > Alphatian "servant"-class person is also not much better. You have the > "right" not to be killed at random, but any Thyatian slave can make the > same claim). Bellissaria > I got interupted at home and (DOH!) forgot to finish this portion of my screed: Bellissaria IMO would have circa the same % of slave population that Alphatia (Metro) had. Bellissarians are anti-social, but that doesn't mean anti-slavery. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:40:39 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do!) I'd like to throw in my 2c here I once saw an anime movie (WHAT you don't know anime? go here: http://www.anipike.com/) Very short description: And it in the good guy's where fighting the bad guy's who wanted to kill every one. But eventually it came out that the bad guy's wanted to save the earth, and nature, from humans (with their pollution and huge cities etc..). When I saw that I thought 'Wow and I thought they where bad' And I didn't know who I wanted to win. Now if you can get this type of conflict in Mystara: with both parties being 'good' but wanting to accomplish different goals. How about two 'good' religions wanting to help the people in different ways, What about two groups wanting to abolish slavery in Thyatia? (One by revolts and stuff, the other 'through the system', and both trying to prevent the other since with revolts group 2 won't have a chance and group1 thinks group2's way won't work ) what other ideas of these differences of opinion could there be in Mystara? > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaviyd@aol.com [SMTP:Kaviyd@aol.com] > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: > Anyone play Basic? I Do!) > > In a message dated 98-07-18 13:38:55 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > > > I think this 'greyness' is the true /essence/ of Mystara and could > very > > well explain a lot about the type of people who love to play within > the > > borders of its countries. (Hmm, I wonder if that fact could be > manipulated > > into something useful for the "SaveMystara" campaign. How could > "shades of > > grey" be positively promoted as something Unique about Mystara, > without > > sounding wishy-washy?) > > We could steal that quote from G'Kar on B5: > > "Nobody here is exactly what he appears." > > (I may be slightly off as I am quoting from memory.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:00:14 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Complex villians. Christian Gotschi wrote: > > Now if you can get this type of conflict in Mystara: > with both parties being 'good' but wanting to accomplish > different goals. > Certainly good ideas. IMO, a "sympathetic villian" is often a good one: the kind of person (or group) who presses for "causes" that the PCs agree with. . .but who/which use means that they can't support. This leaves the PCs in a "moral quandary" (do they join the "villians?" do they try to "convert" them to "more acceptable" means of advancing their goals [usually such "conversion" attempts are doomed to failure, because the "True Believers" don't go in for "moderation"], or do they try to defeat the "villians" and thus set back a cause that they themselves agree with? . .but perhaps defeating the villians will *help* the "cause" because the "villians" are turning off people and making a worthwhile goal seem tainted by their violent means.) Most PCs end up getting somewhat frustrated 'cause they *hate* to go against such "villians". A lot of Players are so prone to having their characters use violence (or other forms of force) to achieve their goals that their is a *very* real danger that they'll decide "let's not beat 'em, let's join 'em". But if that can make for a fun campaign, then 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #527 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 528 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - RPG Setting Jingoism Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside [MYSTARA] - What's Needed [MYSTARA] - How about zooming in? Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women Re: [MYSTARA] - Former Alphatian colonies Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:12:07 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Glen Sprigg wrote: > > Karameikos was NOT a duchy of Thyatis. Once Stefan took over, Karameikos > was an independent, autonomous state. He used the Grand Duchy appellation > to discourage anyone else from invading, implying that Thyatis would protect > Karameikos. But Stefan was not beholden to Thyatis in any way at all. Then what was that breaking away from Thyatis and declaring itself a kingdom during the great war? Karameikos was an autonomous state but still a part of the Thyatian empire. You could even say it was a part of the Thyatis mainland (depending on which side of the border you spoke with). The declaration of independence and separation from Thyatis means nothing if Thyatis had no hold on Karameikos. > I own a few Realms items; I used to have more, but I got rid of them because > I got tired of seeing NPCs who could wipe the floor with any PCs I cared to > bring into their world. I have both played and DMed Realms games. I know > what I'm talking about; these aren't second-hand impressions. I've been involved with the Realms since the Avatar series and have not found the trouble you speak of. In fact, I'd be interested in learning how an NPC wipes the floor with anyone against the DM's wishes. I have played in and DM'ed the Realms several times and had yet to have an uninvited NPC tell me what they will and won't do. Are there trouble spots? Sure but uncontrollable NPCs isn't one of them. > And neither Etienne nor the entire council of Alphatia can do what the Seven > Sisters can do. And Etienne is an Immortal. What does that mean? Have children? Simply put, the Seven are no match for the Council or Entienne. I can't imagine what you're implying that they can do more than the Council. Much less the idea that they surpass the powers of an Immortal. Obviously, we are not talking about the Forgotten Realms. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:18:12 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives >I know this sounds a bit far-fetched, but what if there's some truth to the >beliefs of the Cult of Halav that King Stefan is the second coming of Halav? >After all, the cult's priests DO receive their petitioned spells from SOME >source, so there is definitely some Immortal game going on here. If Stefan >WERE Halav incarnate (or an avatar, special agent, whatever), then this might >help to explain why he turned his back on the Thyatians during WotI--the >Thyatians were not Halav's people, the folk living in the lands of Traladar >are. Actually I always thought this as well :). Halav was said to come back at the Traladarans darkest hour (the Thyatian invasion) and lead the nation to a new Golden Age (which he does seem to be doing). And Stefan looks a bit like I imagine Halav to (well, he has red hair at least, and looks like a bit of a rugged warrior king). Of course, why Halav would choose to created a Thyatian avatar is beyond me. Perhaps simply as a means of wriggling away from the Thyatian Empire a bit easier. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:24:00 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >Maybe, but IMO the Bellisaria, Norwold, Qheodar... are completely >self-sufficient. > >>As a complete aside, if at the height of the British Empire Britain sunk >>into the Atlantic (even supposing all those colonies were still patriotic >>enough to continue with the Empire) there wouldnt really have been much of >>an economy... > >Are you sure? >I think Australia, India, Canada and all the major colonies would have been >able to sustain themselves withouth the need of goods coming from Britain, >though I doubt they would have continued with the Empire. Well, of course they would be able to survive. Assuming medieval population levels and reasonably fertile land, they will survive. But surviving isnt much. You need more than that - you need a scientific establishment, you need industry, and so on. Most of the stuff that made Alphatia an Ancient, Mighty Empire has been lost. Only a couple of academies has survived - probably a huge amount of knowledge now resides in the HW. The sheer shock of having their homeland disappear would probably leave deep psychological scars. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:40:33 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >> In my own >> opinion, 1st edition Advanced really rocks and was written by >> gamers for gamers, rather than by a marketing department hoping >> to attract a wider (perhaps younger) audience with "dumbed down" >> language, > >Oh, I'd hate to have more people in the hobby or rule books that don't >require a large dictionary. Thankfully, it seems the market is >shrinking. Yea! > >> sanitizing the demons and devils and such (Baatzeau >> and Ta'nari, or whatever they've disguised them as), > >Oh, they're not disquised. They just got rid of the Type ***. Let's >see, a Balor was a Type VI demon and a Marilith was a Type V demon both >of which are Tanar'ri, etc. Not to mention, Mariliths are Hissing Demons, succubi are Whispering Demons and so on... :) >> and lots >> of slick shiny paper and colorful graphics, not to mention "kits" >> and "skills and powers" and all sorts of rampant >> munchkinism...yup, I'm talking 2nd edition Advanced, here! Rampant munchkinism? 2nd ed!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I beg to differ here :) 1st ed characters are obscene compared to 2nd ed! Also, more importantly, I think most of the 1st ed obscenity lacks any "style". Hard to define, I suppose. Probably the clearest example is psionics (I'm kindof loathe to use this as an example, as no one uses it, but I think its the best example). 1st ed psionics is a tack on to your character. There is no sort of defining style to it at all, its just a couple of nice abilities. And they go far beyond "nice". 1st ed psionics does stuff like make you immune to illusions and enchantments for 5 PSPs a day (well, thats about half of the offensive spells out there), plane shift the party for 20 PSPs and so on. 2nd ed psionics is a class in itself. The class has a unique style to it (which I like, obviously, so I'm biased :), much like a cleric or a mage. It isnt just something tacked onto your character to make him harder, it broadens the game and gives it more depth. Also, its far less powerful than the 1st ed equivalent. Throughout my time of playing both editions, I also notice many little tweaks here and there which seem to be aimed at toning down 1st edition foulness. Spells have suffered greatly in 2nd ed (fireballs only do 10d6 as opposed to 20d6 - What I thought was funny is that chain lightning does 1d6 per level upto a max of 12d6, and you have to be at least 12th level to cast it! Skip Williams was asked that in a Dragon, and he said that if a 12th level wild mage cast it it could have the power of, say, a 9th level casting. But wild mages didnt exist AFAIK when the PHB just came out, so its just a hasty edit from the 1st ed description...) As for the slick pics. The 1st ed books have really abysmal presentation - I find them really hard to read. At least the 2nd ed books look nice, and are far more readable. And as for the kits and Skills and Powers - this munchkinism is just 1st ed returning. Looking at rangers, we see the Giant Slayer kit (foul) but, in actual fact, all this is is the 1st edition ranger abilities! Of course, 2nd eds been around for a long time now, and its start to suffer (The Old Republic fell under an unwieldy bureacracy, it looks like AD+D does periodically as well.) I equate the Skills and Powers obscenity (which I dont really consider to be true 2nd edition - its more like 2nd edition Version 2) with Unearthed Arcana - which was probably comparatively worse. Same with all these kits - theres just too much. I imagine 3rd ed will clear all this out and start again comparatively weak. And in 10 years everyone will be saying that its a munchkins paradise :) >Didn't read our Avatar trilogy too closely, did we? Cyric rose to >godhood by betraying everyone around him. In any case, the razing of >Zhentil Keep didn't involve NPC heroism. It didn't involve heroism at >all. It was a mad god that destroyed half a city. The DM is perfectly >within his rights to stop the destruction as the Keep still exists. The >same way one could stop Alphatia's destruction. You have a lot to work >with in the Realms but if you want to be lazy then it will show in what >you make. Which is probably why it has such a large following. It >gives you more tools to work with. It's great for the lazy DM and for >the one that likes to create things himself. Well. Ive read the Seven Sisters book, and I reckon its probably the worst book I have ever seen. Its the only book Ive yet read describing NPCs which descries how the PCs should grovel. Most the stuff I dislike about the Realms is - funnily enough, the munchkinism (Perhaps thats why everyone thinks 2nd ed is foul! Perhaps its merely equated with the Realms all of the time). Elminster is just a joke, a byproduct of a writers ego, it seems to me. And we have Drizzt Do'Urden, and all the other drow sickness. And Thay, and Netheril with its 12th level magic, and so on. Shadow elves vs drow sums it up. Cheerz ROB (Of course, if it were aranea vs drow it would be a different story :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:45:37 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! >Picture this conversation between a player and the DM. > >Player: Okay, I'm going to research a ninth-level spell that allows me to >cast more than one spell at a time. The spells go off together, and can be >any spells of up to seventh-level. > >DM: That's so unbalancing to the game you're never going to succeed. > >Player: But the Simbul can do it! > >DM: She's an NPC. > >Player: Boy, that's really fair. > >See what I mean? *Rules lawyer wig on* I never get to be a lawyer on this list! Nows my chance... (This is kindof joking, incidentally) Actually, theres a 9th level spell in Tome of Magic called chain contingency that lets you cast two spells simultaneously (or three spells spread over a couple of rounds) when some event happens. And it can affect spells of upto level 8... (A completely pointless nitpick. Perhaps 2nd ed is foul after all! Maybe, but without Tempus Fugit it still pales compared to 1st ed :) Cheerz Lawyer Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:00:42 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RPG Setting Jingoism > > To keep things relative to the list... Howzabout Glantri? I love >Glantri, it was the first Gaz I ever bought. But if there was ever >a setting that one could say implied that the NPC's were >far more important, its Glantri. All these princes and wizards >in a highly stratified society, how is a PC to get ahead? Glantri fan alert! Ive got to disagree with you here... First off, those Glantrian wizards are pretty weedy by FR standards. Second off, in G:KoM at least, PCs vs Prince plots are suggested, as is advancement in the political system - theres actually quite a bit on the latter. Theres even a bit on how to become a Prince. And once you are a Prince, you are on level pegging with Jags. :) > Howzabout Alphatia? How is a piddly little party of adventurers >going to compare to ONE THOUSAND 36th level wizards? >If this is the number of powerful wizards just on the ruling council, >how many more 20th+ level spellcasters are wandering the land? >So much for getting ahead, or being distinctive in a crowd. Well, I hate those 1000 wizards. Its a black spot on the otherwise rose Mystaran tapestry of life. I do my best to forget they are there (Not hard, as the SC is, what, 4000 miles away?) > So is it OK in Mystara to have a large number of powerful >people in positions unlikely to be obtained by PC's, but it's >not OK if it is in the Realms? Well, the former is correct, but I dont think the latter is necessarily true. Mystaran modules run right up to 36th level (and beyond!) so at some point you are the equal of any NPC on the planet, because D+D has level limits. > The Seven Sisters is one of the worst examples of this; it's >> not an adventure, but it describes seven NPCs of truly disgusting power. > > More disgusting that 1000 36th level wizards? Noooo, its those wizards again. Someone get rid of them! They are helpless against the little bald guy with the red kit on... > What you fail to mention is that the book gives extensive >background and personal information, and there is a complete, >in-game rationale for their power. Just like there is an in-game >reason for Etienne and Drachenfels level of power. Anyone can get the level of power that Jags, or even Etienne has. Theres no reason at all why a PC cant study the Radiance, or Dracology, or anything else. Theoretically any 18th level PC wiz can become an Initiate Immortal if he susses out that 9th level Radiance Spell. > But you know what? It ain't Truth or the Gospel. It is just a >setting. Really? Damn! *putting away the incense* :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:03:02 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do - --- > Well, you might still be. :P Vampire is a good game, it just tends >to bring out the worst in some people, whether it is extreme >pretenciousness or extreme powermongering. Yes! Pretentiousness is mentioned as well! (No, we arent REAL roleplayers over here - we're playing D+D. If you want to be pretentious check out Vampire over there :) Pretentious, without being ostentatious. >> Hel is on my side. > > Careful, Hel is a fickle alliy. : ) As long as I dont get reincarnated as a slug. Could be worse - one of the wives of my fellow gamers is a witch, and has statues of Kali all over the place. Anyone whos seen the Temple of Doom should be getting worried at this point... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:04:01 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life - ----- > Neat! I didn't know we had Mystara personalities on the list! >Are there any others? > But, it looks like Bruce needs to relax! Damn straight, someones ripping the best setting of all! (I guess this is the "fickle ally" thing). :). Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:23:53 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside James Ruhland wrote: > > The Seven Sisters (an otherwise good product, but it's tone is > *deffinately* infused with the "NPCs are better than PCs" attitude). You simply have to be reading that into the product. If there has never been but one accessory devoted to NPCs, this one is it. It tells you what these characters like, hate, how they're treated and their abilities. This is simply a book for those DM's that want to use the Seven. How is left up to them. > Spellbound (all the really "significant" "future projections" are left in > the hands of NPCs [Symbul, Witches], while PCs act on the margins) This set give two 32 page adventures in which the players go up against some major names. I've not looked through the whole set yet but going by what you say, it sounds like the set offers possible adventures and then assigns them to the Simbul or the Witches. I didn't find that but I'll look more carefully tomorrow. > Ruins of Zhentil Keep (the "important" stuff, the nuking itself, happens > "offstage", as a result of NPC actions. PCs are, again, the "supporting > cast" in this epic event). This is the best example of something important happening off screen. There is no PC involvement to be washed over as this was completely novel driven. An update to the gaming part of the Realms. The PC's do have a chance to play around in the remains though but again, this is for the DM to design. > Lands of Intrigue (again, the "heroic" stuff, I.E. the reunification of > Tethyr, happens as a "prior event" and the set up has the PCs arriving in > the anticlimax). Once again, you're blaming TSR for not writing an adventure. The unification of Tethyr has been laying around ever since Lhaeo was revealed to be heir to the throne. All these you have spoke of are box sets that update the setting or an accessory that details a group of NPCs. This is not the usual place to find adventures. Again, a DM has to design how he will use these products and the Realms offer you as much freedom as Mystara does. Both are lacking in written adventures. > In The Begining: in the begining there was the Dragonlance Saga, and all > was good: books and modules. The books were good (some might even say > great), and the modules allowed folks to play through the campaign, while > being different enough from the novels themselves to offer numerous > surprises for the players. Sounds like a favorable report on Dragonlance. Which is strange since these modules plain out told the DM that certain characters could not be allowed to be killed. > This sets a very different "tone" for each world: In the SR 5th Age, you > get the sense that each year the world is increasingly dangerous. In FR > Faerun, you get the sense that each year the place is safer (after all, the > bungling Zhentarim, Red Wizards, etc. never succeed at anything, and are > *always* PORTRAYED as bunglers by comparison to NPCs such as the Symbul & > Elminster.) The Realms has some (few, I know) great villains that just don't get the light they deserve. But I thought your point was there was too much NPC involvement. What difference is NPC involvement rather it be hero or villain? Its good that you think the Realms are safe. I just hope you let a Realms DM show you how wrong you are. > 2) I don't *need* TSR accessories to make PCs protagonists. Setting up a > game world where you, in effect, IMO, encourage people to decide that they > don't need your products, and won't find an interesting adventure putting > PCs in the central roles, is a *bad* policy for a game company that want's > to sell products. Then that must not be what they are doing as the Realms has continued to be the largest selling setting from TSR. Yes, they had financial problems but I think that was due mainly to the lesser selling settings they were putting out. Your connection to Thyatis was slim at best. I didn't see what you were saying in regards to Thyatis. Thyatis can't itself be a villain unless you are playing in some high level games (such as a king). What Thyatis can be is the backdrop for a villain. Thyatis's fall or regaining its footing could serve what kind of villain emerges but it can't fill that role. Thyatis just isn't completely good or evil. Though it can still be pitied ;> - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:56:04 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed All this talk about two of my favorite settings (and yes, the Realms has finally past Mystara to me this month) has gotten me thinking what Mystara needs to compete with the Realms. One thing is to not ever treat the countries of Mystara as if they exist in a vacuum like the Gazetteers did. While they gave great information on these nations, very little was given on how they fit in with the rest of the Known World. The Known World is a small area and could be covered if a single box (or book, preferably) as the Realms does with its different regions. At present, there is too much you have to have to get a complete picture and everything isn't clear. Another thing is to look at the demi-humans together. This goes back to the previous point. The elves shouldn't be discussed only as they are in Alfheim or Wendar but as they exist all across the region. After all, there is no clear idea how the Alfheim saw Wendar or elves in other countries. Dwarves and halflings also need that treatment. Humanoids are also given the impression that the Broken Lands is where they all are. We know they exist in Karameikos but we have no idea in what numbers or their way of life. This seems to be because Karameikos isn't their country and so aren't given hardly a mention. I've also noticed that Glantri and Alphatia wizards are considered the only true welders of magic. Again, this is because Glantri and Alphatia were treated as if they were the only place to find mages. I've seen several say that a wizard from Glantri is more powerful than from other countries. As a whole, possibly. But mages from any nation shouldn't be thought of as less of a mage because they aren't from Glantri or Alphatia. Again, this is another symptom of focusing on individual nations and not the whole. I also think its time that the nations that don't fit aren't kept in place for nostalgia. The borders of the nations have become intimidating to a DM as any thing in the Realms could ever be. Ethengar is a good example of what I mean. Either they are great warriors or they aren't. I would have no problem with them spilling over their borders and taking some of the lands around them. That is their nature and if you can't be true to that then they shouldn't be there. The same with the Northern Reaches. These two have been kept in stasis long enough and need to be what they are said to be or removed. I also see that the conflict between Thyatis and Alphatia is being artificially continued. Artificially because Alphatia is gone. This conflict overshadowed so much of the Known World that I was glad to see it finally end. Finally, Thyatis can grow beyond the imitation Rome it had become. I think a fall is the logical conclusion but it would be for the best so that it can take on its own identity. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:12:58 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: [MYSTARA] - How about zooming in? All this talk about huge kingdoms and immortals is very interesting, but how about looking at a few smaller things. What is happening in Threshold ? (sp?) or some other town. When I DM my players usually don't shoot up levels (I now start them off at a reasonable level other wise they won't get very high, and I try to give away more XP.. :) ) So we play low levels, now all this discussion is interesting, but not useful. (ok ok lots of it is, but I'll ignore that) So how about describing the things that low level characters would interact with. Say one place/town/village/keep/whatever per country, that really gets the feel for that place. So how about a low-level Almanac? One(or more?) for each country? 'Karamikos-Threashold Almanac' has a nice ring to it? (iron ring, MU HA HA HA HA) would anybody want me to try? Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:03:50 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women Flossy says 'I seem to remember some dabate about 'realistic quasi fantasy settings'. It seems silly to accept demi human, dragons ect and not equal females' > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicholas Hudson > To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women > > >>The big thing that struck me though was how rarely the issue of >>gender > roles came up. It seems that there are very strict gender >>roles in the > Emirates and that women are generally a repressed >>minority. I think this > would be a nice touch to add in to this culture >>that is presented as > egalitarian and utopian. > > > Along these lines, I've always been suprised at how modern most > >nations in Mystara are when it comes to sex. > > Why? TSR has to accomodate modern trends as much as anyone > else.. Think about it: saying women *can't* be adventureres would cost > TSR a number of female customers who prefer to play female characters(most > of us do tend to play the same sex as we are IRL, afterall). Some might > call it being PC, but I think of it as not making an > issue of something for no good reason. > > > Even in some of the most primative tribes, such as the gurrash of the > >Savage Coast, women are regarded as equal to men. > > You do know many anthropoloigists believe that the more primitive cultures > are more likely to have equal rights for both sexes? > > >Individuals, such as Rathanos, maybe have their predjudices, but > >socially, women have it better on Mystara than on Earth. > > Good for TSR, no reason to make a mistake just because it was so > on Earth. > > > I know Mystara is fantasy, but give that many of the nations are > >"officially" based on mediveal culture, mayn't one expect a degree of > >discrimination? > > No. Not unless you can show me *why* "medieval" cultures must or even > should have such discrimination. Otherwise I'd say your just > trying to be too historical at the price of having a good time for all. > > >Not that I support sexual discrimination mind you, but > >it could provide some interesting plot devices and inspirations: female > >characters either can't get any help from the authorities, or too much > >help from lecherous would-be saviors; have a nasty tendancy of being > >kiddnapped by dragons, and having to put up with obnoxius paladins >who > think the woman's place is in the home. > > And while SOME people might like that, I think the majority would prefer > not to have the problem. And people who didn't even play the game would > take it as proof that TSR just wants women to be barefoot and > pregnant.... > > > Perhaps the players could even lead a sufferage movement; I once >had a > very moving and intellectual adventure involving an attempt to >unionize in > Minrothad. > > If you want to do that, you're welcome to DM the game any time you > want. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:08:03 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Former Alphatian colonies Flossy says 'DO we not have a USSR situation here?' > > > >IMO, and IMC, that would have largely happened already. IMC, all that > >survives of the Alphatian presence in Esterhold are a few coastal enclaves > >which can be supplied/supported by sea. As I said in another screed, > >"Barbarian" horse archers are quite a force. . . . . . .. . > > > Right you are! IMO, as soon as word of the sinking/civil war reaches > Skothar, the free Jennites would probably sweep in from the east to > liberate their enslaved brethren. The kingdom of Verdan, being 20/80 > freeman/slave, would likely erupt in a great revolt. Most of the > overlords would have been killed IMO (magic or no, they'd still die), > and that eastern kingdom would be wiped off the map in months. The > other coastal cities would be looted and then possibly forced to pay > tribute, while Blackrock might hold out for a while longer before being > overwhelmed. With a civil war raging or the chaos following the > sinking, it just doesn't make sense to me that Esterhold remained in > Alphatian hands, because so much of the empire's might is elsewhere. > > This is what bugged me about WotI - Ochalea and the Pearl Islands were > full members of the Thyatian Empire (full citizenship and everything) > for 1000 years, and they revolted and became independent, while the > majority of the pop. of Esterhold (slaves) remained in the empire, and > they would have had more reason to want out. No matter how powerful you > are, when you're outnumbered 8-1 by a horde of enraged people, you lose, > IMO. > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97 > Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon > Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog > au998@freenet.carleton.ca > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:19:07 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD Flossyb says 'But look what happened to the Blackmoor Elves, their culture is intact, but they have their technology faked for them' JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote: > << I respectfully disent. The Spell of Preservation would limit things some, > but doesn't really interfier with the "magical lifestyle" all that much. > The main restrictions are on rapid movement and certain divinatory magics. > IMO, the "Alphatian Way of Life" will do just fine without access to such > things. Sure, Mages can't Teleport. That is a big change. But they have > flying beasts and ships, and they can still build their homes with magic, > light them with magic, etc. >> > > No golems? No wishes? No magic-users/clerics with less > than INT/WIS of 16? > > Jamuga Khan > > "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." > > Jamuga Khan > > "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #528 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 529 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - West End Games goes bankrupt Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life. Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life. Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:29:56 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - West End Games goes bankrupt Flossy says I know of some ppl writting/ play testing the GURPS Traveller stuff, if indirectly RLaRue@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-07 03:51:41 EDT, you write: > > << Actually, that one is gone too, already (Imperium Games). Steve Jackson > Games (GURPS) has the Traveller licens now, if I'm not mistaken. >> > > Not exactly. Steve Jackson Games does indeed have a license to produce a > GURPS Traveller and line of supporting material, but it is an alternate > Traveller universe. It diverges from the "official" Imperium Games timeline > before the assassination of Emperor Strephon (i.e. the beginning of GDW's > MegaTraveller and beyond). > > Unfortunately, Imperium Games has not released a new product in months, and > many of the ones they planned on releasing are listed as "Unavailable > Indefinitely". I'm afraid IG may be in trouble also. > > Try these links to get more info > > http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller > http://www.imperiumgames.com/main.html > > Rick > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:41:22 +0100 From: Michael K Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life. Flossy says... 'YES YES YES, been thinking about Oards for a while now. Anyone remember which scenario they were in? I know it was Companion level.' Nicholas Hudson wrote: > >> "protectorate" of the Grand Benevolent Thyatian Commonwealth, > > > >LOL. Amusing. I hope untrue (I know untrue), but amusing. > > Hmmmn. . .in Solmyr's MystBR game I've reciently taken to, on > occasion, > >refering to Thyatis as a "Commonwealth" myself. > > Great minds think alike, I guess. > > I just thought of one way for Thyatis to get some quick > super-technological aid: oards. In the third age on Aelos, the oards > went to the most mundane empire and taught them certain techniques, like > iron working. This was all an attempt to destroy the influence of magic > on Aelos. What empire represents magic more than Alphatia? The oards > visit the Thyatian emperor, make a deal, and Thyatis suddenly has a > technological "breakthrough" and assigns new military "advisors" to > elite units. Events then occur as mentioned before. > > Nicholas Hudson > "One Race, One Empire, One Time." -Qartanaq > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:14:21 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Stefan's Motives In a message dated 98-07-20 03:31:19 EDT, you write: << Of course, why Halav would choose to created a Thyatian avatar is beyond me. Perhaps simply as a means of wriggling away from the Thyatian Empire a bit easier. Cheerz ROB >> Well, when you look at the geography of the old Duchy of Karameikos (now the Ducy of Machetos), directly east of Traladara, and combine this with the origin of the name of Karameikos (IIRC, it was derived from the Greek name "Karameisos", which is a very famous cemetary in Athens), one might suspect that the people of the original Karameikos had no small amount of Traldar (i.e., "Greek") blood as well as Thyatian-Kerendan. IMC at least, the Karameikan noble (once again, Royal) line is directly descended from the old Royalty of the local ancient Traldar city-state of Karameisos, who were, of course, descended from the ancient noble houses of the Traldar, which at one time included a certain King of Halavos named Halav... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:10:33 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai ><< Mogai was killed in the final battle with Glantri, leaving Ethengar in a > Hobbsean State of Nature. >> > >You can be assured that I see THIS as inacceptable. >Compared with this Thyatis is faring very well in the >last years. :'-( > > > > Jamuga Khan Dont worry, Khan. You shuld read some David Gemmell books. He has the Nadir (like the Ethies) - they are awaiting the Uniter who will unite the tribes and enable them to conquer the world. He turns up, they do well - but he dies of a heart attack. However - the true prophecy was that he was merely paving the way for the Second Uniter, who was a crossbreed of Ulrics line and the line of the royal family of the Nadir's enemies... Maybe a Wizard-Khan descendant of an Ethie/Glantri Ethie crossbreed? Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:23:04 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> ROB (I'm trying to prove James Ruhland wrong. Someone agree with me,if >> only to shut him up :) > >Err, I don't know what others think but his opinions have been rather >well-argued and not antagonistic in the least. The discussions have been >very on-topic (heck, the nature of the major Mystaran nations is as >relevant as we get). Why would we want to shut up anyone who is arguing >in a balanced manner and whose posts fit the purpose of the list? As for >wrong and right, there are no wrongs and rights in Mystara. We all have >our own versions of Mystara and should not try to impose our Mystaras as >the one true world on other list members. We can offer >opinions/interpretations but they need not be 'right'. If you're going by >a strict 'right'/'wrong' based on the TSR publications, then I'm afraid >James is right by that definition - Thyatis got a worse deal as time went >on and Alphatia was presented in a brighter light. Whether you agree with >the earlier or later portrayals of the nations is totally up to each DM >though and neither is neccesarily more correct than the other. I was kidding. It was more of a private joke aimed at James than a dig. The problem with arguing for both sides is that you get labelled as the enemy by both sides... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:33:04 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization > Letting a spellcaster choose from his spell selection at the >moment of casting rather than memorizing does not greatly expand the >*power* of the caster, but it does increase their *flexibility*. >The best part of it all was that instead of seeing an overall rise in >the use of spells like fireball and lightning bolt, I saw a decrease >in their use, at the expense of more miscellaneous spells. Well - that may be true for D+D, but it certainly isnt true for AD+D. Looking at a few 3rd level spells, which I am often debating whether to take or not, from AD+D, with pros and cons... Dispel Magic (priests get this - do you want it as well, as party mage?) Fireball (No good in a confined space - fire is a common attack form, easily defended against with magic. But undead are notably vulnerable to it) Flame Arrow (No area of effect - but that means it can be fired into melee) Lightning bolt (Corridor clearer - electricity doesnt affect undead though, and its virtually useless out in the open) Fly (always a good spell - but is flying helping you, or making you more vulnerable?) Phantom steed (like fly, but lasts longer - on the other hand the steed can be "killed") Melfs Minute Meteors (not much damage to things, but will cause a large nonmagical fire) Spectral Force (Illusion of anything - but do you want something more tangible?) Wraithform (short duration, but you can pass through cracks and walk by undead) Hold Person (without some sort of saving throw amplifier this spell is a killer against fighters, who would otherwise take damage from fireballs or whatever...) etc. etc. etc (for the 75 odd 3rd level AD+D spells lying arouond the place) Point is AD+D is such a vast game (and D+D too) that no one spell is "better" than any other. The mage has to be flexible - which is why the mage should be delving into the histories of that dungeon/haunted forest/Denagoth :) to have a guess at what he is facing. Although, I have to say - from what I remember of D+D is that the spells arent nearly as balanced as the AD+D versions, and some definitely do stand out from the crowd. I remember my 36th level wizard casting Magic Missile all the time, because it was just Too Damn Foul. As another point - 20d6 max damage on fireballs scares even many hitpointed fighters, but 10d6 max fireballs is just going to tickle - better the Fumble spell for them... Cheerz ROB (Advocate of 2nd ed!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:10:17 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MML Firsts At 01:30 PM 7/20/98 +1000, stan wrote: >At 20:21 19 07 98 -0500, Aaron wrote: >>Hello! I looked through the first ten digests and came up with this list >>of MML firsts. Enjoy! >> >>v1.n001 > >Actually if you look at the dates, not to mention the content you'll >see that the digests labelled as v1.n001 and v1.n002 on the archive >site actually end up being both from volume 2 of the digest. And, with that said, I suspect that the "First TSR Author" to post a message to the list was actually Ann Dupuis, although whether she did in #1 or #2 is unknown. :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:06:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed > Mystara needs to compete with the Realms. Who said Mystara needs to compete with FR in the martketplace? > One thing is to not ever treat the countries of Mystara as if they exist > in a vacuum like the Gazetteers did. While they gave great information > on these nations, very little was given on how they fit in with the rest > of the Known World. I only have GAZ2 but this definitely makes mention on how the Emirates respond to all the other nations and how the other nations impact on them. > The Known World is a small area and could be > covered if a single box (or book, preferably) as the Realms does with > its different regions. *boggle* Covered in a single book perhaps, but not covered WELL. Each Mystaran society is very complex and cannot be discussed in 7 or 8 pages (assuming a 100-page book). I liked PC2, but couldn't stand that the culture of each new race was barely covered. One thing the Mystara supplements like HWR3 or GAZ2 did was cover the cultures in depth so that they each seem unique. Most fantasy settings do a horrible job at this, and all the cultures as a result come across looking totally identical. > At present, there is too much you have to have > to get a complete picture and everything isn't clear. Things would be even more incomplete/unclear if jammed into one product. Perhaps a Known World boxed set along the lines of the Hollow World one is good so that you don't need too much to get a glance at the entire world but you still need the supplements that explain each culture's intricacies. > Another thing is to look at the demi-humans together. This goes back to > the previous point. The elves shouldn't be discussed only as they are > in Alfheim or Wendar but as they exist all across the region. After > all, there is no clear idea how the Alfheim saw Wendar or elves in other > countries. Dwarves and halflings also need that treatment. Strong disagreement here. The elves are not a monolithic culture anymore than the humans are and there is no reason why they should know about all the other elves or even care about them. One nice thing about Mystara is that you have so many different humans but also so many different elves (Shadow Elves, Alfheim elves, Schattenalfen, Icevale elves, Gentle Folk..). There are less different dwarven groups (Rockhome and Kogolor are basically it) and halfling groups. Another nice thing about Mystara is that even in some of the 'human' societies you have full acceptance of a non-human group - halflings among the Merry Pirates, dwarves among the Ylari, spell-casting humanoids in Alphatia...there is no reason to cordon (sp?) each race off into its own little enclave. I personally like having some elves prefer a 'human' culture than having all elves concerned about one another. > Humanoids are also given the impression that the Broken Lands is where > they all are. We know they exist in Karameikos but we have no idea in > what numbers or their way of life. This seems to be because Karameikos > isn't their country and so aren't given hardly a mention. We do need more explanation on humanoids, definitely, considering how many nations they have and considering how less one-dimensional they are than in your typical fantasy world. More mention should be made of them. > I've also noticed that Glantri and Alphatia wizards are considered the > only true welders of magic. Again, I don't see this. These societies simply have higher views of magic-users than other nations but by no means are wizards not presented in Thyatis or in Milenia. Even the societies which frown on magic use, like the Antalians, obviously have some sorcery present. > These two have been kept in stasis long > enough and need to be what they are said to be or removed. I like a static fantasy setting much more than a changing one. I liked Krynn right after the Chronicles..then along came the 5th Age and they had to make cataclysmic changes for the 2nd time in a brief period. Realistic societies don't act this way, vanishing or rapidly changing overnight. Give us the world, explain it in depth, and leave it alone, letting us work with it from this common starting point. > I think a fall is the logical conclusion but it would be > for the best so that it can take on its own identity. As Mr. Ruhland has pointed out, Thyatis HAD an identity during DoTE and it was only the one-sided events after that boxed set that robbed it of the identity. For those of us who prefer the stable 1000 AC world from which to launch our campaigns, Thyatis still has its identity. Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life. > 'YES YES YES, been thinking about Oards for a while now. Anyone remember which > scenario they were in? I know it was Companion level.' CM6, Where Chaos Reigns. > > "One Race, One Empire, One Time." -Qartanaq I am not a huge fan of them myself, seeing them as truly alien to Mystara, much moreso than the Beagle crew or our other tech folks. To each their own. Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption and destruction of man? - Calvin I'm not sure man needs the help. - Hobbes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:10:38 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! >While it never specifically words it that way, the impression is very >strong. Starting with the Avatar trilogy, the Realms 'adventures' became >interactive novels in which the DM led the party by the nose and no matter >what the PCs attempted to do, Elminster or some god would fix their Well, I don't have the Avatar Trilogy (the adventures), so I don't know what they say. The ones I have don't have that kind of thing (one example: the rise of Iyachtu Xvim in Ruins of Zhentil Keep box; if the PCs screw up, he is an intermediate god, tough luck). As to DM "leading the party by the nose", I admit, there are adventures like that, but they are not limited to FR, so no need to heap blame on one campaign (B6 Veiled Society anyone?) >'mistakes.' The Seven Sisters is one of the worst examples of this; it's >not an adventure, but it describes seven NPCs of truly disgusting power. > That's all it does: it describes some NPCs. Why their power is "disgusting" I don't know; most of the time, their powers won't even come into play, since those NPCs (and Elminster, etc.) serve as plot devices. And there are no less powerful NPCs in all worlds, including Mystara. >DM: That's so unbalancing to the game you're never going to succeed. > I wouldn't rule like that. I would still make the player come up with his own version of the spell, describe the effects etc, *not* just let him read the spell from the accessory. PCs should be researching their own spells rather than acting like copycats :) >>Wrong. The "heroic" stuff that NPCs do was written about, but it wasn't the >>*only* heroic stuff in FR. After all, it's rather hard for TSR writers to >>know what heroic stuff your PCs do. >> >They didn't leave much for the PCs to do. > Did you check? I could name lots of different heroic things for the PCs to do in the Forgotten Realms (contact me privately if you want the long list :) >Why not? They might have been involved in him rising to godhood in the >Avatar trilogy (whether they wanted him to rise or not). > In that case it's left for the DM to work that into his or her personal campaign. TSR can't predict in what way your PCs could be involved with Cyric. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:19:46 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 >Thyatis has been in the gutter long enough - 1016 should be the year that >it begins to move on surer footing once again. I absolutely agree, and that's what we will be doing (or at least try :) >1. Retake Ochalea (I'd like to see this happen, if only for strategic > I've proposed a plan for a "peaceful" retaking of Ochalea which involves the Ochaleans petitioning for rejoining. I am of firm conviction that Teng Lin-Dieu has been magically charmed by Alphatians :) >2. Expand in Davania. Well, since I'm in charge of that department - wait >and see. *knowing look to fellow Davania team members* > Definitely. Thyatis can even meet your nice Heldannic Knights there :) >3. Retake Westrourke. Duke Firestorm needs to receive a lesson in >loyalty. Nuff 'said. > Heck, the guy is *named* for Thincol (his dad Donegal "named his son after the beloved Emperor"). More Alphatian manipulation? >4. Retake Tameronikas. Lost to the Ylari hordes in AC 821, there are > This I don't know. After all, both Thyatis and Ylaruam have grabbed each other's territory. And the Kin faction is not entirely powerless, even with the fiends running about (they've got some aces up their sleeves). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:24:58 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... > > >Didn't read our Avatar trilogy too closely, did we? Cyric rose to > >godhood by betraying everyone around him. In any case, the razing of > >Zhentil Keep didn't involve NPC heroism. It didn't involve heroism at > >all. It was a mad god that destroyed half a city. The DM is perfectly > >within his rights to stop the destruction as the Keep still exists. > Point is it was an "offstage" event, as far as PCs are concerned. IMO not a good idea. > > > The > >same way one could stop Alphatia's destruction. You have a lot to work > >with in the Realms but if you want to be lazy then it will show in what > >you make. > Ahhh, but I don't need TSR products to do that. Point is, I still on occassion play and DM in the FR, but I've stopped buying FR products except for the *very* occassional one. Which do you think is better for a gaming company: to have me buying everything that comes out for a gameworld (like I used to), or to have me ignoring their publications? Also, as I said, the general "tone" that the products set is, IMO, counterproductive. At this point, can anyone really say that the way *TSR* has presented the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards has caused their players to see them as dangerous fellows? The way TSR has presented them caused my players to see them as jokes. Not the same with, say, Aztlan/Aztechnology, or Lofyrr. Point *ISN"T* that I'm saying "Mystara is great and the Forgotten Realms suck!" I'm not even drawing a direct comparison. I'm making a point about game design/evolution/direction that I think *all* gameworlds need to pay attention to. If I *were* making a point about Mystara by comparison to the FR I'd say that: yes, Mystara has it's "uberNPCs" and "uberOrgs", which folk have mentioned. However, in Mystara/D&D products, these super-powerful NPCs & organizations are in the *backround* of the gameworld. The PCs are/were the "protagonists", the central characters. This is how things started in the FR, too. Perhaps Mystara would have gone down this (IMO) "wrong path had the gameworld continued. But it didn't. Neither, it seems, is Greyhawk going in this direction (Greyhawk is the obverse of the FR: things are *massively* dangerous in that gameworld right now, the "forces of evil" having just won a major war, while the forces of good are prostrate: in FR, there hasn't been a major war, but the forces of good are clearly on the march, in official products, while the forces of evil are largely ground under). IMO, the latter may make for better novels (and people buy a lot of FR novels); hero's win, goodness is exalted, and the wicked are punished. But the former makes for a more exciting gameworld. Players *fear* dudes like Iuz, because Iuz represents a triumph of evil. Players *fear* the Master, because even though he was repelled in his attack on Darokin, he still holds Sind and threatens the Savage Coast baronies. Anyhow, enough on this topic from me. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:02:21 CEST From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? From: Galwylin >This is the best example of why NACE is impractical. You wouldn't have >seen Australia, India, and Canada attempt to reform the British Empire.=20 >In fact, I think they may have even broke away without it having to be >destroyed. But the situation is not the same either. British colonies were far more widespread than Alphatia's, making such an alliance more difficult. And not all colonies were populated by Brits - even Canada, US, and Australia had only a percent of its population made up of Brits while many other settlers were French, Germans, or whatever, not to mention the natives. And places like India, British Africa or lands in China were mostly popluated by the natives. OTOH, most of the Alphatian Empire is populated by Alphatians, except for Thothia and Esterhold. The other difference is that the remnants of Alphatia were threatened by Thyatis, which caused the alliance by those remnants (some of whom were not immediately threatened, but were sure they would come next). If England sunk and France (for example, being the most powerful adversary in northern America) were to try to (re)conquer Canda, with US, India (from Vietnam/Cambodia), the other half of Africa, and then Australia in mind, then you have a more similar situation. Wouldn't then those formeer colonies ally? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:57:36 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside Everything old is new again. www.constantinople.net - ---------- > From: Galwylin > > You simply have to be reading that into the product. If there has never > been but one accessory devoted to NPCs, this one is it. It tells you > what these characters like, hate, how they're treated and their > abilities. This is simply a book for those DM's that want to use the > Seven. How is left up to them. > I don't think I am "reading that into the product". Unlike some others who have stated that they absolutely *loath* the Seven Sisters accessory, I do not. The high level of detail about their personalities, goals, etc. are very useful. And handing that product to a player who's idea of character "uniqueness" is a special "battle cry" as he swings his two-hander is something I'd highly recomend. However, the tone of the product *is* infused with "these people will put your characters in their place if they ever get the idea they are more important." The "chosen" aspect, the typically haughty/superior/condecending aspects, etc. I don't believe I'm reading that into the product. It *is* a feeling I get from reading it. If you don't, then more power too you: our opinions just differ. It is also "Munchkin Paradice", which I'm agnostic about. I'm not even talking about the spells, but the "Chosen of Mystra" aspect, granting the Seven Uberpowers of an agregious sort. Now, different games are run at different levels of power, but this seemed a tad much even for me (and I'm often happy to play Munch games). > > This is the best example of something important happening off screen. > There is no PC involvement to be washed over as this was completely > novel driven. An update to the gaming part of the Realms. > IMO, it's a bad update to the gaming part of the Realms, for reasons I discussed below ("nuking" a major bad guy while building up the good realms=lowering the "threat level" tone of the world). > > Once again, you're blaming TSR for not writing an adventure. > > IMO, that is their job, after a fashion. In our campaigns we've used a mixed of published adventures & adventures of our own creation. Hmmmn. . .looking back on it, my "favorite" published ones are the older modules, while the ones I enjoy reading more than actually putting players through are the newer (more scripted) ones. Just an interesting asside. I guess it depends on what you look at TSR (and other gaming companies) primarily as: are they RPG companies, producing products that a "lazy" DM or DM with less-than-infinite time can use to run characters through, or are they primarily in the fantasy novel publishing business? The answere may well be "both, hoss, they do both, and are quite profitable at it." My retort is: fine, but I've seen examples of where companies combine role playing accessories with novels in, IMO, a better way. Again, in IMO. Others may disagree. > > Sounds like a favorable report on Dragonlance. Which is strange since > these modules plain out told the DM that certain characters could not be > allowed to be killed. > It is a favorable report on Dragonlance. One can read that one sentance (or paragraph) and ignore it, without having to make major changes to the modules. One often has to completely re-write some more recient modules in order to (IMO) make them playable, and if you need to do that, then IMO why buy them at all? Write one's own. > > The Realms has some (few, I know) great villains that just don't get the > light they deserve. But I thought your point was there was too much NPC > involvement. What difference is NPC involvement rather it be hero or > villain? > Difference, again in IMO, is that it's the *player's* jobs to be the hero's of the game they are playing, and it is the NPCs jobs to be the villians. Strong, successful, active NPC villians IMO do not detract from a game setting in the way that omnipotent NPC hero's do. Unless you're running an "evil" campaign, in which case the reverse may be true for you (PCs are the villians, so having lots of "tough hombre" NPC heros is the way to go). > Its good that you think the Realms are safe. I just hope you > let a Realms DM show you how wrong you are. > A DM can do that in any setting, without the support of TSR products. I was speaking here of the general tone of TSR FR products in recient years. > > 2) I don't *need* TSR accessories to make PCs protagonists. > > Then that must not be what they are doing as the Realms has continued to > be the largest selling setting from TSR. Yes, they had financial > problems but I think that was due mainly to the lesser selling settings > they were putting out. > That's a given. However, the question that I answered in this screed was directed to me. I gave (and give) my opinions. It's *my* opinion that they're going in the wrong direction. Obviously I'm in a minority on this (as you say, FR is their most popular setting). But I'm not a bandwaggoner: just because other people have different tastes (and enjoy FR products, or whatever, as is their right) has no effect on mine. > Your connection to Thyatis was slim at best. I didn't see what you were > saying in regards to Thyatis. > Someone at some point in the discussion (sorry, I can't remember who) said that Thyatis shouldn't be eliminated "because it makes a great villian". My comments on Thyatis were my response to that. IMO, unless you're playing a humorous campaign (which can be *very* fun) the major "villians", be they individuals, organizations, or nations shouldn't be ineffectual bunglers that the players treat as laughingstocks. TSR products, IMO, at least for FR, encourage players to treat major villians as such (the NPCs do, and the "bad guys" haven't had a major success in recient memory). Now, a DM can make sure that they are feared. But I don't need to buy their stuff if it gives me no help in that task. And, IMO, it doesn't. I've said "IMO" a lot in this post because that's what I'm talking about: my own opinions. As I admit, I may be in a minority in holding the view that a gaming company: 1) should produce products that put PCs in the central role. 2) that if they don't, I don't need to buy them (I can make the PCs heros regardless). 3) that NPC-driven heroism is not as good as NPC-driven villiany. 4) that a game company should make it's game world seem more dangerous, and it's villians more ominous, as time goes by*. *why? Well, if you assume that PCs will do good and heroic things, weakening the "bad guys", then having scripted events that strengthen them counterbalances PC actions to some extent: PCs can have their success, while still having a lot of adventure oportunities (because of the new ideas/threats that they are presented with). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #529 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 530 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - How about zooming in? Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 [MYSTARA] - PHB - Last message Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:07:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed > > One thing is to not ever treat the countries of Mystara as if they exist > in a vacuum like the Gazetteers did. While they gave great information > on these nations, very little was given on how they fit in with the rest > of the Known World. The Known World is a small area and could be > covered if a single box (or book, preferably) as the Realms does with > its different regions. At present, there is too much you have to have > to get a complete picture and everything isn't clear. > That's a good idea. IMO, though, probably two or three such compendiums (but still an improvement on 12+ such), each discussing several "broadly related" nations. > Another thing is to look at the demi-humans together. This goes back to > the previous point. The elves shouldn't be discussed only as they are > in Alfheim or Wendar but as they exist all across the region. After > all, there is no clear idea how the Alfheim saw Wendar or elves in other > countries. Dwarves and halflings also need that treatment. > A good point as well. > Humanoids are also given the impression that the Broken Lands is where > they all are. We know they exist in Karameikos but we have no idea in > what numbers or their way of life. This seems to be because Karameikos > isn't their country and so aren't given hardly a mention. > That's true (though they are somewhat mentioned in the Darokin & Northern Realms ones, but again as an asside rather than a major feature). > I've also noticed that Glantri and Alphatia wizards are considered the > only true welders of magic. Again, this is because Glantri and Alphatia > were treated as if they were the only place to find mages. I've seen > several say that a wizard from Glantri is more powerful than from other > countries. As a whole, possibly. But mages from any nation shouldn't > be thought of as less of a mage because they aren't from Glantri or > Alphatia. Again, this is another symptom of focusing on individual > nations and not the whole. > Certainly some truth to that, based on general impressions. Some folks seem think that nations except for Glantri, Alphatia, and Karameikos (because of the SoM & Terari) are magic-poor. Perhaps relatively less magical (than the 1st two nations), but not nessisarily "magic poor", nor are the wizards in the rest of Mystara nessisarily ignorant because they didn't study at the GSoM, Krakatos, or in Alphatia. > > I also think its time that the nations that don't fit aren't kept in > place for nostalgia. The borders of the nations have become > intimidating to a DM as any thing in the Realms could ever be. Ethengar > is a good example of what I mean. Either they are great warriors or > they aren't. I would have no problem with them spilling over their > borders and taking some of the lands around them. That is their nature > and if you can't be true to that then they shouldn't be there. The same > with the Northern Reaches. These two have been kept in stasis long > enough and need to be what they are said to be or removed. > You know, I'd have to grant you that one, too. The borders *are* indimidating, and folks (myself included) tend to have a "either they conquer it all, or they don't conquer any of it, and since we don't want to eliminate any Known World nation, best that it not occur." Ethengar IMO got royally boned on that deal (at last something me and the Khan can agree on *G*). > I also see that the conflict between Thyatis and Alphatia is being > artificially continued. Artificially because Alphatia is gone. This > conflict overshadowed so much of the Known World that I was glad to see > it finally end. Finally, Thyatis can grow beyond the imitation Rome it > had become. I think a fall is the logical conclusion but it would be > for the best so that it can take on its own identity. > On this, if you have any specific ideas, I'd love to see them. If you'd prefer, mail them to me directly: jruhlconob@sprynet.com I've seen some of what you're talking about based on your list posts, but I'd like to hear more specific details (I.E. what direction you'd like things to grow into). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:08:35 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - How about zooming in? > > 'Karamikos-Threashold Almanac' has a nice ring to it? > (iron ring, MU HA HA HA HA) > would anybody want me to try? > I think this is an excellent idea, myself. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:15:30 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai > > Maybe a Wizard-Khan descendant of an Ethie/Glantri Ethie crossbreed? > A Wizard-Khan? *Keels over and dies of shock* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:20:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 > > >4. Retake Tameronikas. Lost to the Ylari hordes in AC 821, there are > > > This I don't know. After all, both Thyatis and Ylaruam have grabbed each > other's territory. And the Kin faction is not entirely powerless, even with > the fiends running about (they've got some aces up their sleeves). > For one thing, they aren't going to re-grab everything in a year (assuming that they do any such thing): Even NACE didn't rise from nothing to total integration in a year. IMO, Tameronikas won't be "back" in Thyatis for the foreseeable future (just IMO, though). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:54:51 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - PHB - Last message As it seems that nobody else wants to get the Ethengar PHB I will send it in a few days. All who wanted to get it will get a separate message. Anybody who doesn't get one should e-mail me because I might have forgotten him or her. Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:25:57 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, DM wrote: > At 08.45 17/07/98 -0500, james ruhland wrote: > > Quisling was the dude that ran Norway as a puppet state for > >Hitler/National Socialist Germany during WWII. His name became a biword for > >traitor scum and 5th collumnism. > > Wondering... has this Quisling anything in common with OUR Qissling of > Floating Ar (or does he live in Ar in the HW now?) I know this is off topic, but if anyone wants to know who Vidkun Quisling, email me privately. This will hopefully clear up things for people who are interested. Håvard (Yep, I'm Norwegian) *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:05 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some notions about Thyatis << One problem with this idea is that Korotiku was in the same group/faction as Rad -- so the last thing he would have wanted to do was undermine the Thyatian war effort. WotI credits Ilsundal with causing these secessions -- but for him to have been able to do so, those two nations must have been able to maintain an underlying resentment of Thyatian domination for over a thousand years. >> Indeed! A new Thyatian policy about colonizations seems necessary. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:09 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai << Maybe a Wizard-Khan descendant of an Ethie/Glantri Ethie crossbreed? >> Charming idea. :-) This would mean that a Glantri conquered by Ethengar would be like China conquered by the Mongols. The difference between "before" and "after" were not so big. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:08 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? << well minrothad is a trader nation. by bringing minrothad into the imperial fold, thyatis gains a valued trade base. if managed efficiently it could add greatly to the imperial treasury. thyatis could just appoint governors and let the guilds run the trade. minrothad pays its share of tribute/taxes and you have a monetary boon. station a thyatian fleet there and there is little need of the mercenary guild. >> I'm not so sure. I would think that the trading activities of Minrothad would decrease after being conquered by Thyatis. But this can be decided freely by the possible authors. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:05 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai << I have to agree with you on that one. Mystara's "Mongol Empire" seems to have gone nowhere. Which is, in some respects, unfortunate. Plus, IMO, Moglai was a likable character, whether you saw him as a "villian" or a "hero" he was (at least as portrayed in the Gazzeteers) far smarter, craftier, and more resourceful than he came off in I.E. the wars with the HKs ("Mongol" troops eat Knights for breakfast, IRL.) >> Yes, it seems that I will have to tell all the Ethengar haters the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the riders from the steppes... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:07 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? << but the US also aided England several times. aside from military alliances, the US has been a staunch trade partner and political ally of England since the War for Independance. the war of 1812 was not singularly the US helping France. there were several other factors involved in that one. >> Yes, and if I recall correctly, Stafan Karameikos send grains to Thyatis City after the unfortunate war against Thothia. For sure the Thyatian citizens will hate him for that. :-, Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > Actually I don't like very much this Thyatis = Byzantium comparaison. > IMC I prefer to have Thyatis = Roman Empire. Thyatis != Roman Empire. Milenian Empire == Rome. The reason Milenia fell was barbarian raids due to an ineffectual monarchy. That's pretty close to Rome. AND In the Milenia Gaz, there is very close links between Milenia and Rome. So this implies that Varellya == Greece. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:41:46 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Rob wrote: > but without Tempus Fugit it still pales compared to 1st ed :) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Huh? Max IV - out of the loop. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:09:18 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 11.15 19/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >When folks move to a new country, they generally don't completely forget >their past affiliations, and start falling in love with their old native >land's historical foes. Just my experience, IRL, is all. I hope to move out of year in a couple of years, then I'll be able to tell you my experience too. Unfortunately I don't know who our historical foes may be :-) >Again, that would be true. . . .*if* he weren't *still*, after WotI, >cozying up to Alphatia/NACE. OTOH if he continus switching side between Thyatis and Alphatia/NACE soon he'll lose all his international credibility (if any) and thus the support from both of them, and it would be no good for little Karameikos. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:19:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition At 11.08 19/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >> >Yes, but 1) they didn't move to Mystara just yesterday True, but some of them are still alive (look at the d'Ambreville, not just Etienne, but also his mortal relatives). > and 2) I could go to >the lybrary and pick up a book, or several books, on shipbuilding, and I >doubt me and my buddies would have much success with our first efforts. I know this and I knew you would have answered like that, thus I agree completely. But maybe a bit of magic could speed up the process. BTW: about magic, don't you think the role (and strenght) of Thyatian mages has been neglected in TSR products? Ok, they're not a magocracy, but they've lot of mages, and several high level ones too. >They'd manuver like carts, too. Yes. >Point of all this, once again, is that you *can* script what you want, then >come up with good (or good enough) reasons to explain everything >retroactively. True. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael K Jones wrote: > Flossyb says > > 'But look what happened to the Blackmoor Elves, their culture is intact, but they > have their technology faked for them' Tired of Fake technology? Fed up with having to spend thousands of GP just to buy a Blackmoor relic? Come to beautiful Southern Davania! Read up in the great library of Sundvall or Serraine. If your interested, We'll find you. Zodiak Mentrix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:44:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >I've also noticed that Glantri and Alphatia wizards are considered the >only true welders of magic. Again, this is because Glantri and Alphatia >were treated as if they were the only place to find mages. I've seen >several say that a wizard from Glantri is more powerful than from other >countries. As a whole, possibly. But mages from any nation shouldn't >be thought of as less of a mage because they aren't from Glantri or >Alphatia. Again, this is another symptom of focusing on individual >nations and not the whole. I have to disagree there. I equated magic with nuclear weapons - and Glantri and Alphatia as nuclear superpowers. Thyatis may be the equivalent of France, but it aint the US. I dislike too much magic in game worlds. The writers of novels generally tend to agree with me (Thor Gunnarsson definitely does - Alphatian warfleet being wiped out, Flaemish wizards being embarassingly incompetent etc.). Usually there are just a couple of hard wizards about (Raistlin). One way of limiting magic is by saying that only a few nations really have the ability to train mages. Of course, this is irrelevant because if a player wants to play a Minrothad mage, for example, than of course he can. But NPC Minrothad mages should be rare. I still say that the power of large numbers of mages is drastically underestimated, and this talk on mages gating in armies has got me going again... Of course they could do that! You only need one mage with a Gate spell. 200 mages with Gate spells and you could get a lot of troops through quickly. I remember a while back a debate on gunpowder weapons, someone being against the idea of cannons (Scaling the fortress while being raked with shrapnel isnt heroic D+D... or something like that). With lots of mages there will be no castles, because they can just be blown away by any reasonably competent midlevel mage. (Or Jaggar von Drachenfels with Jaggars Strengthened Bastion has become very rich through copyright...) Cheerz ROB >I also think its time that the nations that don't fit aren't kept in >place for nostalgia. The borders of the nations have become >intimidating to a DM as any thing in the Realms could ever be. Ethengar >is a good example of what I mean. Either they are great warriors or >they aren't. I would have no problem with them spilling over their >borders and taking some of the lands around them. That is their nature >and if you can't be true to that then they shouldn't be there. The same >with the Northern Reaches. These two have been kept in stasis long >enough and need to be what they are said to be or removed. > >I also see that the conflict between Thyatis and Alphatia is being >artificially continued. Artificially because Alphatia is gone. This >conflict overshadowed so much of the Known World that I was glad to see >it finally end. Finally, Thyatis can grow beyond the imitation Rome it >had become. I think a fall is the logical conclusion but it would be >for the best so that it can take on its own identity. > >-- >This has been a Galwylin® Production > >The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) >galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:50:21 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -" What's a quisling?" I know this is off topic, but if anyone wants to know who Vidkun Quisling, email me privately. This will hopefully clear up things for people who are interested. Håvard (Yep, I'm Norwegian) Go on then - enlighten me. I couldnt ask James, because he'd just rip me for being English and not knowing... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:48:52 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >I seriously doubt that Stefan is Halav. Possibily related to him but >not the actual Immortal. But Halav is strategist and it wouldn't seem Halav is probably just having some unofficial fun :) >Another thing is that Karameikos gets much dislike. I think some have >forgotten what Karameikos offers that other nations can't, adventurers. There are adventurers and wilderness in other nations. While I don't *hate* Karameikos, it just isn't as exciting to me as other nations because it is just your basic fantasy kingdom. While the strength of Mystara is in that its cultures are very distinctive and mirror the real world ones. Now perhaps if Karameikos was made much more Traladaran-oriented... ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:21:14 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Pointless Asside > The Seven Sisters (an otherwise good product, but it's tone is >*deffinately* infused with the "NPCs are better than PCs" attitude). Didn't notice it. Perhaps it should be read with your head free of prejudices. > Spellbound (all the really "significant" "future projections" are left in >the hands of NPCs [Symbul, Witches], while PCs act on the margins) Look at the included adventure: PCs are central in defeating the plot of Szass Tam. If they fail, too bad - Thay is unified and poses a much greater threat. And no NPC can "fix" it. > Ruins of Zhentil Keep (the "important" stuff, the nuking itself, happens >"offstage", as a result of NPC actions. PCs are, again, the "supporting >cast" in this epic event). The Zhentarim are stronger than ever, with their leader finally having an opportunity to concentrate on their plots instead of worrying about insane gods. Fiends quietly taking over the city. A new evil god rising, with the PCs given a chance to foil him. Lots of stuff to do. > Lands of Intrigue (again, the "heroic" stuff, I.E. the reunification of >Tethyr, happens as a "prior event" and the set up has the PCs arriving in >the anticlimax). > Intrigue in Tethyr has not decreased in the least (the box is aptly named). The Knights of the Shield are quietly grabbing power. The Cowled Wizards are led by an ancient evil. The Twisted Rune can make your PCs (and most NPCs) really earn their money. > In The Begining: in the begining there was the Dragonlance Saga, and all >was good: books and modules. The books were good (some might even say >great), and the modules allowed folks to play through the campaign, while >being different enough from the novels themselves to offer numerous >surprises for the players. Do you mean the modules where players were confined to playing the Heroes of the Lance? >which were quite frightening). The FR product was the Hero's Lorebook: a >compendium of all the NPCs who do the real work of the realms. I don't think TSR could really include people's PCs in the book :) > The difference in tone was, and is stark. Novels are a good illustration >of this. TSR novels all (or at least all the ones I'm familiar with) end >with a successful conclusion (perhaps after a trilogy, but none the less I admit, the novels do show good guys winning. But they are just that - novels telling about singular events in a huge world with lots more opportunities for heroism. Besides, who would want to read a novel where the main hero fails abysmally and dies? >Faerun, you get the sense that each year the place is safer (after all, the >bungling Zhentarim, Red Wizards, etc. never succeed at anything, and are >*always* PORTRAYED as bunglers by comparison to NPCs such as the Symbul & >Elminster.) I'm sorry you get that impression. I certainly don't see the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards (or the dozens of other evil organizations) as "bunglers". They are only bunglers if the DM plays them like that. > B) makes the world seem more safe, less dangerous as time goes by (the >Harpers never suffer a significant, memorable setback, the "Black Network" >never achieves a significant, memorable victory). > Some victories for the Zhentarim: Conquest of Darkhold, takeover of Llorkh, making a route through Anauroch, spreading chaos in Thesk, takeover of Teshwave and Daggerdale. Some setbacks for the Harpers: I bet there were many, they just aren't written about (and that is about to change with the novel Thornhold). Oh, and every FR fan remembers Szass Tam and his collection of a couple hundred harper pins taken from dead Harpers :) >In FR products, it's usually Elminster who saves the PCs bacon, not the >other way around. A *big* difference. Never saw a product where Elminster comes and saves the PCs. > Point of all this is both to answer Solmyr's question, and a "general tip" >to would be game designers: NPCs should *never* be the most important >people in the story. They may be more powerful, more knowlegable, and more >wise than the PCs. But they should *never* be more heroic than the PCs. >RPGs are not novels. PCs are the protagonists. Yet the world doesn't revolve around the PCs either. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:25:32 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai >I have to agree with you on that one. Mystara's "Mongol Empire" seems to >have gone nowhere. Which is, in some respects, unfortunate. > Plus, IMO, Moglai was a likable character, whether you saw him as a >"villian" or a "hero" he was (at least as portrayed in the Gazzeteers) far >smarter, craftier, and more resourceful than he came off in I.E. the wars >with the HKs ("Mongol" troops eat Knights for breakfast, IRL.) > You are just saying that because you like Moglai in our PBEM :) But Moglai can easily be seen as a quite evil man. IIRC he performed genocide on two tribes who didn't join him. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:59:03 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >And neither Etienne nor the entire council of Alphatia can do what the Seven >Sisters can do. And Etienne is an Immortal. > Etienne is an Immortal - he can do almost anything (just cast wishes all day). The same goes for many members of Alphatian Council, I'm sure. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #530 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.