mystara-digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 531 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - Danger/Threat level. Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:52:45 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >Point is it was an "offstage" event, as far as PCs are concerned. IMO not a >good idea. Are you saying that significant events should only happen when PCs are in the vicinity? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:45:43 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >countries. As a whole, possibly. But mages from any nation shouldn't >be thought of as less of a mage because they aren't from Glantri or What?! Blasphemy! Burn him in the name of Rad!!! :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:02:51 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! >> but without Tempus Fugit it still pales compared to 1st ed :) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Huh? > > >Max IV - out of the loop. An Unearthed Arcana spell - below the belt, considering that many seem to consider Unearthed Arcana to be the thing that brought 1st ed down. But then, mention of Skills and Powers is the 2nd ed equivalent, so what the hell :) (If interested - Tempus Fugit, "time flies" - basically lets a mage sleep and rememrorise spells in roughly an hour - meaning virtually infinite spells on tap. Level 4 Illusionist spell, IIRC) Cheerz ROB (Memento Creatoris Tui) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:04:51 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >>Another thing is that Karameikos gets much dislike. I think some have >>forgotten what Karameikos offers that other nations can't, adventurers. Oh, Ive always said this as well. Glantri maybe Kingdom of Magic, but Karameikos is Kingdom of Adventure :) Its that shearing ceremony thing that does it... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:07:10 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >>Point is it was an "offstage" event, as far as PCs are concerned. IMO not a >>good idea. *Fence sitter arguing on both sides* Well, WotI is a bit like that. Alphatia is going to sink (canonically speaking, of course :) whatever Muggins the PC does. Cheerz ROB (Agh! Defending FR! I will self-terminate immediately!) (On second thoughts, that will make too many people happy, and I live to aggravate :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:19:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Someone (who, in the interest of amity, and the survival of my realm) said that I perhaps should read the Seven Sisters with no prejudices/prejudgements. Well, I must say that I did. As I said, there are a number of good things about the accessory. The high level of detail (folks can learn a lot about bringing their own characters to life with that accessory; that said, however, the Seven do seem roughly similar in many ways. Of course, they are "Sisters", but I found a lot of things semi-repetitious in their similarity). Again, that said, I especially like Alustriel 8-) Perhaps because her goals are somewhat similar (patroness & guardian of a safe, nice city) to goals one of my own characters has pursued in another campaign. But I was asked what I didn't like about the FR, and I responded. That makes me some kind of Heretic ThoughtCriminal, I guess, but that's hardly an unusual situation for me. 8-)~ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:25:56 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... > > Well, WotI is a bit like that. Alphatia is going to sink (canonically > speaking, of course :) whatever Muggins the PC does. > I have to give you that one. I wasn't especially pleased with all that (though, given the "anti-Alphatian" impression that some have of me, folks may be surprised). Anyhow, we argued this general point (deterministic outcomes, and their general utility) already reciently. My opinion (in brief) was and remains that once in a *long* while they are ok, but not ad infinatum. WotI was one of a very few D&D/Mystara modules/campaign sets with a deterministic plotline. B2 is still the "best" kind of module. Hell, you aren't even told *why* you're attacking the monsters (or why they're all crouded into the same general area, hiddgedly pidgedly): it's all open ended. Just a "free range kill zone". That and I have a special fondness for it because it was my 1st module. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:32:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition . > > I know this and I knew you would have answered like that > Drat! @#*&^!!! I've become to predictable here, I'll have to change things up and surprise folks 8-). > thus I agree > completely. > But maybe a bit of magic could speed up the process. > A possibility. Even "Consume the Wealth of Wisdom" doesn't give practical experience, though. I guess if you Summoned the appropriate Marids or the Greater Demon of Nautical Design (Pyarray?) that would help out, though. > > BTW: about magic, don't you think the role (and strenght) of Thyatian mages > has been neglected in TSR products? Ok, they're not a magocracy, but > they've lot of mages, and several high level ones too. > Oh, gads; I can see a whole new and argumentative thread opening up based on this. IMO, that's true, though. Thyatis has been portrayed as the place of "Duh Fighter", but there's a whole section in the PGtThy about why Thyatians like magic, and folks like Demetrion ain't ignoramouses. Now I'm sure they'll be a whole bunch of messages explaining why Thyatian Wizards don't cut the mustard. Ok, to each their own. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:35:40 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters > > Someone (who, in the interest of amity, and the survival of my realm) > *mutters sullenly* Syntax Error has happened a *LOT* reciently with my messages lately (incomplete sentances, dangling whatevers, strange and chaotic changes in tense, etc). Sorry for that; hopefully my screeds will improve. (oh: the poor spelling I'm afraid is a congenital defect, though). What that eliptical remark *should* have said is: "(who, in the interest of amity, and the survival of my realm, will remain nameless)" *wanders off, muttering about his dolt-like english* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:53:19 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... << WARNING!! WARNING!! INCORRECT!! INCORRECT!! Karameikos was NOT a duchy of Thyatis. Once Stefan took over, Karameikos was an independent, autonomous state. He used the Grand Duchy appellation to discourage anyone else from invading, implying that Thyatis would protect Karameikos. But Stefan was not beholden to Thyatis in any way at all. >> Yes, it was a really charming political fiction. BTW, after Thincol had fulfilled Stefan's wish he no longer saw him as a friend, because he has left his empire to found his own realm. I'm not sure but this comes from GAZ 1 od DoE. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:53:16 EDT From: JamugaKhan@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life << Not to get into an arguement with the man who wrote Glantri, one of the best of the Gazetteers. >> I wished Bruce had written the Ethengar Gazetteer. Perhaps more people would have read it. :-( Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:17:42 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger At 08:07 PM 7/20/98 +0100, Rob wrote: >*Fence sitter arguing on both sides* > >Well, WotI is a bit like that. Alphatia is going to sink (canonically >speaking, of course :) whatever Muggins the PC does. Precisely why some people, like myself, aren't particularily keen on the WotI Adventures. :-) As a 'not-so-pointless' asside -- I think James actually makes some very good points in many of the screeds he's recently posted. I might also add that he's been /very/ careful to point out that everything he is saying is 'IHO'. We're all entitled to our differences you know. Most of his arguments are also well thought out, clearly written and done in a logical way. To me, at least, he doesn't seem to be 'tearing FR down' so much as explaining why he, personally, dislikes the way TSR has developed the setting. He may be arguing a negative thesis, but he never once told others they are /wrong/ to think differently than he does. I can't say the same for some of the /replies/ to his comments though ... some of us need to recognize that discussing a negative opinion about something is not necessarily a bad thing -- when it is done thoughtfully and with reasonable and logical commentary. Personally, I've never read or played a thing to do with FR except, I think, the short-lived AD&D marvel comic book that I used to read wa-a-ay back when ... I believe it was based in Waterdeep -- that's FR right?. In any case, I don't know if what ANYONE says about FR (positive or negative) is true. And, I might add, that what James' has said about FR (true or not) is essentially irrelevant to the Thesis of his "Screed" -- what he feels Gaming companies should do regarding the roles of PC's and NPC's in their campaign worlds. With that said, I have to admit that I tend to agree /in general/ with the basic 4 points James' has been trying to make while using FR (rightly or wrongly) as an example. To whit: At 10:57 AM 7/20/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >[...]a gaming company > 1) should produce products that put PCs in the central role. 1. PC's should be central emphasis of RPG'ing. Assuming average gaming groups of 1 DM and 4 Players, at leat 80% of RPG'ers represent PC's, and they're the ones that want to have FUN. Important NPC's who occationally do 'big' things in the /background/ makes sense -- otherwise nothing happens except when the PC's are around, which is an unreasonable expectation. But if MOST of the really big/neat/exciting stuff gets handled by NPC's, well, what's in it for me as a Player? I want to be the 'hero', the one who makes the 'big' changes. Someone is going to come back and say "Well, that's up to the DM to let you be the hero". True. But that leads to James 2nd point: > 2) that if they don't, I don't need to buy them (I can make the PCs > heros regardless). Right. Why buy the stuff the gaming company puts out if you /know/ you are going to have to modify it extensively to make it fit your vision of the world? If the original stuff is designed to help you lead your PC's towards greatness, the gaming company is giving the DM a better reason to buy it. Again, that's "in general". Of course I frequently buy modules that I know I'll need to do a lot of work on to get them to fit into my campaign. Most DM's do that, and they even create their own stuff from scratch. But you have to admit that, if you're going to buy something, the less work you have to do to make it work, the better. Given a choice between buying supliments and modules for a world where most of the products need just a little modification and another world where most of the products would need extensive modification, I, for one, would be much more likely to gravitate towards the first world. > 3) that NPC-driven heroism is not as good as NPC-driven villiany. This is an interesting point, one even James has pointed out is moot if you happen to play an 'Evil' campaign. He frequently comments that it is probably more fun to have your PC's come up against Villians who are seen as a fearful challenge than it would be to come up against Villians who you /know/ you'll beat because they are incompetent fools -- or because Heroic NPC's will come in to save the day and your whupped A**. The former is an exciting challenge, where the outcome is not a foregone conclusion, the latter is ho-hum because the ultimate outcome is assured, even if the PC's "screw up". For me, this is right up there with the chance of death in an RPG. If you are a player who knows that your DM would never let your character actually die, then whenever you take a 'death defying risk' you actually aren't. At least to me, it is much more exciting as a player, to know that I really did take that risk, and might have perished if I'd failed. > 4) that a game company should make it's game world seem more dangerous, > and it's villians more ominous, as time goes by*. Perhaps, perhaps not. Here, I don't actually think making it 'more' dangerous is absolutly necessary. But keeping it at least as dangerous as it was to start with makes sense. Maybe not in the area where you just wiped out the humanoid hordes, but down the street and around the bend where a new evil has popped up -- more danger for the heroic PC's to stamp out. However, in one sense, simply 'maintaining' the level of danger does imply increasing the level of villiany as time goes on -- since you must assume that the PC's are becoming more competent and more Heroic as their games progress (i.e. rising in level) Well, I just wanted to add my 2 passems to the fray, since it seemed like many of the replies James was getting were hung up on the fact he used FR as his example. Look past the example and see the arguments he's putting forth. You don't have to agree of course, but that's what mature debate is all about ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:03:31 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian Nautical Tradition > BTW: about magic, don't you think the role (and strenght) of Thyatian mages > has been neglected in TSR products? Ok, they're not a magocracy, but > they've lot of mages, and several high level ones too. Yes, they are the second land on Mystara and could magically blast away all thos pitiful Glantrinian mages. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:09:09 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Fate of Moglai > You are just saying that because you like Moglai in our PBEM :) > But Moglai can easily be seen as a quite evil man. IIRC he performed > genocide on two tribes who didn't join him. The knew the rules: "Never fight the coming Great Khan." :-) No, really! The Ethengars are a hard and wild bunch, but other people have committed heinous deeds too. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:12:25 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters > Someone (who, in the interest of amity, and the survival of my realm) > said that I perhaps should read the Seven Sisters with no > prejudices/prejudgements. Hi folks, what's about discussing FR themes on the FR mailing list or on a private base? I don't have any FR module and estimate FR discussions as boring. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:24:32 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Rob wrote: > An Unearthed Arcana spell - below the belt, considering that many seem to > consider Unearthed Arcana to be the thing that brought 1st ed down. Yes it was. Now I remember where i saw that. Didn't UA also bring Gunpowder into 1st ed.? Max IV - Introibo ad altare Rafiel. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:40:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters > what's about discussing FR themes on the FR mailing list > or on a private base? I don't have any FR module and estimate > FR discussions as boring. I agree. I was just about to send the below: The "FR" stuff IMO is getting way out of hand, since this is the *Mystara* board (really spiralling bigtime at this point, IMO). I'll be happy to keep the conversation going in private mail if folks want to e-mail me directly at: jruhlconob@sprynet.com But I ain't (personally) going to reply anymore to FR queries & points on the Mystara list. Oh: general admin, though: I'd be happy to have several folks on the "discussion" if it does contuinue. I just think that it's loosing any connection that it might have (tenuously) had to Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:47:14 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Anyone play Basic? I Do! > >> An Unearthed Arcana spell - below the belt, considering that many seem to >> consider Unearthed Arcana to be the thing that brought 1st ed down. > >Yes it was. Now I remember where i saw that. >Didn't UA also bring Gunpowder into 1st ed.? > > >Max IV - Introibo ad altare Rafiel. Hmm - I have no idea as to the gunpowder (Guns rule! So i wouldnt mind if it did!). Cheerz ROB (Et tu, Brute) Sorry, couldnt resist *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:02:36 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Danger/Threat level. > > Perhaps, perhaps not. Here, I don't actually think making it 'more' > dangerous is absolutly necessary. But keeping it at least as dangerous as > it was to start with makes sense. Maybe not in the area where you just > wiped out the humanoid hordes, but down the street and around the bend > where a new evil has popped up -- more danger for the heroic PC's to stamp > out. > I knew I was entering dangerous territory when I made that remark, because you don't want the PCs to feel that all their efforts are futile (I.E. humanoid hordes shouldn't continually boil out of the same orifice irregardless of what the PCs do, and if the PCs defeat a major villian, it should have a noticable affect). However, what I mean about the "threat level" does have *some* connection to PC improvement themselves (I.E. rising in levels, aquiring more goodies & influence, which means that the opponents they face should be tougher as well), but it also is connected to the very "heroism" of the PCs. Which isn't to say, for example, that if the PCs "strike a blow" against a bad guy (say, smashing the Storm Troopers organization after numerous adventures), that they should come back next week and find the same group has rebuilt itself and become even more powerful overnight. But that some new menace, someplace else (perhaps the Master, or the HKs are getting out of hand, or something else) is rising in prominence. That gives the PCs a new challenge, without taking away their accomplishment. IMO, that's what a game company's products are good for, and why I used Threats (the SR product) as an example (not that anyone is going to defeat Lofyrr in the near future, anyhow. . . .): as foes like Humanis, the Invae/Bugs get "old hat", there's always some other "boogieman" (oh, Tutor will put fear into the heart of any Mage. . . .) to perform the job. Hmmmn. . .how to put it better: One should assume that PC actions will have the effect of "lowering" the threat level (as they succeed in heroic tasks), so efforts on the part of the DM, or a game company, to "raise" the threat level is a "natural" counterbalance to this. "Events" that have the effect of "lowering" the threat level through "off stage" action are thus, IMO, counterproductive. I know Greyhawk, for whatever reason, didn't sell well, but IMO the "scripted events" of the Greyhawk Wars were exactly in the right direction: You now have some really *nasty* bad guys who have grown really powerful, while the "good" realms and the organizations which would restore "balance" (I.E. the Circle of Eight) have been badly battered. Along come the hero's to save the day. . . .assuming it can be saved. Hmmmn. . .to get back "on topic", perhaps Mystara could use some new "boogiemen", some nasty organizations aimed at undermining the "good guys". Master is a nice villian, but he's been around for a *long* time now, and perhaps something new would be good. A return to prominence of the Shadow Lord/Denagoth might be one factor (even though he's an "old" villian neither he nor Denagoth has done much reciently). "hidden cabals" are also great 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:24:05 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? >but the US also aided England several times. aside from military alliances, >the US has been a staunch trade partner and political ally of England since >the War for Independance. the war of 1812 was not singularly the US helping >France. there were several other factors involved in that one. And Karameikos would be more than happy to continue trading with Thyatis. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:16:55 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:07:10 +0100 "Rob" writes: >Well, WotI is a bit like that. Alphatia is going to sink (canonically >speaking, of course :) whatever Muggins the PC does. However, the PC's are involved in the sinking and depending on how the final adventure turns out, may even cause it. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:15:28 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... In a message dated 7/19/98 7:59:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, borealis@cois.on.ca writes: > I own a few Realms items; I used to have more, but I got rid of them because > I got tired of seeing NPCs who could wipe the floor with any PCs I cared to > bring into their world. I have both played and DMed Realms games. I know > what I'm talking about; these aren't second-hand impressions. I agree with this to a point. In my personal experiences with the realms it seems to be a far higher level campaign setting than Mystara. This is not necessarily a bad thing though. The seven sisters are one of many beings/group of beings that are highly superior to most of the planet. I also realize that the campaign is formed by the DM and all worlds/campaigns are relative to the specific group, but the visage that the realms has always shown (to me) was of a higher level setting. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:15:36 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed In a message dated 7/20/98 5:08:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > I've seen > several say that a wizard from Glantri is more powerful than from other > countries. As a whole, possibly. But mages from any nation shouldn't > be thought of as less of a mage because they aren't from Glantri or > Alphatia. Perhaps, they may not be more powerful in each case, but a Glantrian mage should be given far more respect than a mage from Darokin. Glantri is the home of magic as far as the Known World is concerned. It's the #1 place for teaching and learning magic, and the #1 place for acquiring magic. The typical Glantian mage is going to have more contact with magic than a typical mage from any other country. This is why they should be more respected/feared than any other mage IMO. > I also see that the conflict between Thyatis and Alphatia is being > artificially continued. Artificially because Alphatia is gone. This > conflict overshadowed so much of the Known World that I was glad to see > it finally end. I never thought the Alphatian/Thyatian problems overshadowed too much of the Known World. I think it was covered adequately for a war between the nations with the most power in KW. However, i do agree that since Alphatia is under the sea now there is not much reason to continue that line of discussion (IMHO). - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #531 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 532 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? [MYSTARA] - Mystara Re-released! (sort of) Re: [MYSTARA] - Sinking of Alphatia Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Re: [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger [MYSTARA] - Risp's Rant (was The Way I See It...) [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:36:45 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? At 17.10 19/07/98 -0500, Galwylin wrote: > >This is the best example of why NACE is impractical. You wouldn't have >seen Australia, India, and Canada attempt to reform the British Empire. >In fact, I think they may have even broke away without it having to be >destroyed. True, but Alphatia's colonies were not so far from mainland Alphatia as the above nations from Britain. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:35:16 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... At 16.10 19/07/98 -0500, Galwylin wrote: > >Karameikos was still part of the empire though it had more freedom than >other duchies. So why did they write a whole GAZ about Karameikos only? :-) Seriously, I think GAZ 1 implies that Karameikos in no more part of the Empire, but an indipendent nation. > This empire is unchanging and its simply not realistic. And I >still fail to see any Byzantium aspects as it still resembles Rome in >its last days. Me too. >I dunno why they made a requirement. I think it would be fun to have a >wizard that's not very good at magic. The way I've pictured the >Karameikan School of Magecraft is that just because you attend, doesn't >mean you'll be good with magic out in the field. I agree with you. I prefer the D&D system with no requirements. Look at the real world, not all doctors are good doctors and the same could be said for any kind of job IMO. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:47:34 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 20.12 19/07/98 EDT, Demmero@aol.com wrote: >You folks seem sharp, so maybe someone out there can help me with a Mystaran >nitpick.... Sure. > >Is there any general consensus out there as to which former Alfheim clans now >dwell in Karameikos, and in which dominion each of these clans has settled? > Unfortunately there's no general consensus. >DRAGON Magazine #189 says that clans Chossum, Erendyl, and Red Arrow made the >trek to Karameikos, and that clan Erendyl petitioned for a separate domain in >the Radlebb Woods. This statement seems to be contradicted in PWA Vol. 3 (AC >1012) which states that King Doriath (an Erendyl) and his court are in Wendar. > >Seems to me that in one of the Net Almanacs I saw an entry hinting that the >Feadil clan was now in Karameikos. There're two schools of though about this. #1 Bruce Heard (Dragon #189): Chossum, Erendyl and Red Arrow went to Karameikos, while Feadil, Long Runner, Mealidil and Grunalf went to Wendar (with King Doriath BTW). #2 Brizio&Herve (who did not know about Dragon #189 when they wrote their Timeline of Alfheim Invasion): Chossum, Red Arrow and Feadiel went to Karameikos, while the other went north, including King Doriath and his clan, the Erendyl. IMO it makes much more sense if Clan Erendyl goes with Doriath. BTW: the Almanac Team used #2. PS: if you look at JA you'll find the names of a few clan that settled in Karameikos. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:51:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis vs. Alphatia (was Thyatian Renaissance) At 23.52 19/07/98 EDT, Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-19 17:22:10 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: > >> The original Heldanners weren't forgotten, look at the rebels in JA and >> Net-Almanacs. > >.... Which would suggest that the PWAs and all products between X2 >and JA did indeed forget about them, right? I don't own all modules, but I think that Geoffrey of Grunturn, an Heldanner, is mentioned in some CM module. Except that I think you're right :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:07:30 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? At 02.20 20/07/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >well minrothad is a trader nation. by bringing minrothad into the imperial >fold, thyatis gains a valued trade base. if managed efficiently it could add >greatly to the imperial treasury. thyatis could just appoint governors and let >the guilds run the trade. minrothad pays its share of tribute/taxes and you >have a monetary boon. station a thyatian fleet there and there is little need >of the mercenary guild. True, but would Minrothad traders continue to be as efficient as now even under Thyatian rule? I doubt this. Thadders aren't greedy merchants (as maybe the Darokinians), they've a strong sense of honor and IMO they'll refuse to work to pay taxes to Thyatians. Probably those merchants will scatter to the winds and work as indipendent merchants in the many ports of Mystara (from Norwold to Herath). - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:16:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 At 22.19 19/07/98 +0300, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >I've proposed a plan for a "peaceful" retaking of Ochalea which involves the >Ochaleans petitioning for rejoining. I am of firm conviction that Teng >Lin-Dieu has been magically charmed by Alphatians :) What about doing it the other way around: all the Citizens of the Thyatian Empire send a petition to Teng-Lin-Dieu asking him to rejoin the Empire. When he sees such a long piece of paper signed by so many people, Teng Lin-Dieu says "Oh, well... if so many people want me to rejoin the Empire, then I'll do that". It's an absurd idea, but it would be fun :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:20:13 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? At 14.32 20/07/98 -0400, SteelAngel wrote: >Milenian Empire == Rome. > Actually I think Milenian Empire = Classic Greece, while Traldar = Ancient Greece. And yes I think Thyatis = Rome, not Byzantium. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:43:18 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Re-released! (sort of) Browsing through WotC's site I looked at their online store and discovered a Mystara section. Products available are K:KoA, the MC, and the two Survival Kits. I asked the store manage whether OD&D products would be put up and he informed me that he was still looking for OOPs in the TSR's warehouses but that everything that was still in good condition would be posted. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:34:57 -0500 From: Porphyrogenetus Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sinking of Alphatia > > However, the PCs are involved in the sinking and depending on how the > final adventure turns out, may even cause it. > Yah, my PC was taking a "coffee break" in the control room and chatting up a diva, he leaned against the wall to try (but fail) to achieve the "cool but jaded look of nonchalance", and accidentally leaned against this lever. Next thing you know. . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? SteelAngel wrote: >Thyatis != Roman Empire. > >Milenian Empire == Rome. > Actually, the HW sets say the Milenian Empire is Greece, while the Traldar are classical Greece. But then again, since when has that stopped anyone? :P > >So this implies that Varellya == Greece. > Could be, or a Greek-like culture. To be honest, when I was writing up that Varellyan timeline, I had an eastern Mediterranean culture in mind - either Byzantium, Carthage, Troy, or something else (but not exactly, if you know what I mean - basically the culture if made up, but loosely tied to real ones). In any case, the Varellyans at their height were Iron Age. Very imperialistic, these guys. A far cry from the modern enclaves where Varellyan culture survives, to be sure. Incidentally, the names given by Bruce in his Dragon article on the Nagpa of the Vulture Peninsula, Abatu and Lothir (the two princes who played a big part in Varellya's downfall) don't seem to match any culture I know of. Any ideas, anyone? For the other names (Naxith, Ossir, Astarra, etc.), I tried to continue the general tone of the first two names to convey some sort of cultural integrity. Bruce - if you're out there, could you shed some light as to who the Varellyans were supposed to be based on, if anyone? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:31:30 -0400 From: Aron Reif Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee At 03:28 PM 7/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >Just got back from my local mall (Whittwood Mall in Whittier, CA) and >decided to take a visit to the KayBee Toy store there. Couldn't believe >what I saw, Dawn of the Emperors for $12, plus the Castle of Amber AD&D for >$6, Karamekieos for $6, tons of Dragon Dice dice game boxes going for $4 >each, and a few AD&D accessories like the Priest Players kit (the plastic >box with miniatures, etc) for $6 and Red Steel for $6; _all_ unopened in >shrinkwrap! > >They had _plenty_ of each, I counted at least 12 DotE boxes, all brand new >_unopened_, which is a shock if you are used to seeing RPG stuff at places >like KayBee or Toys R Us in their opened, dogeared norm. Not sure about >other KayBee's but if you are in Whittier CA or close by, check it out. > actually, I've seen these at several different KayBee stores around the Washington, D.C. area. I haven't seen any DotE boxes, but I've found Red Steel, Savage Baronies, K:KoA, the plastic Players kits, and a bunch of Dark Sun stuff, all for VERY low prices. I've been meaning to let the list know of this, but I haven't had a lot of free time. Thanks for reminding me. Aron Reif areif@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:24:24 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed James Ruhland wrote: > > That's a good idea. IMO, though, probably two or three such compendiums > (but still an improvement on 12+ such), each discussing several "broadly > related" nations. I could see this for the Western Defense League nations, Thyatis and its holdings, and the remnants of the Alphatian Empire. The trouble spots will likely be Ethengar, the Northern Reaches, and Atruaghin. I suppose they will have to go on geographical locations only as there is just not much that ties the nations together in some way. > Certainly some truth to that, based on general impressions. Some folks seem > think that nations except for Glantri, Alphatia, and Karameikos (because of > the SoM & Terari) are magic-poor. Perhaps relatively less magical (than the > 1st two nations), but not nessisarily "magic poor", nor are the wizards in > the rest of Mystara nessisarily ignorant because they didn't study at the > GSoM, Krakatos, or in Alphatia. I think it looks like the old way of a wizard taking an apprentice has been completely forgotten in Mystara. Almost as if Mystara is too cosmoplotian to such 'backward' practices. > Ethengar IMO got royally boned on that deal (at last something me and the > Khan can agree on *G*). Yep. At present, you could run up and poke them in the ribs then run to border and stick you tongue out at them. They just aren't given the respect they deserved outside their borders. > On this, if you have any specific ideas, I'd love to see them. If you'd > prefer, mail them to me directly: jruhlconob@sprynet.com As to the fall of Thyatis? I'm not sure if it will happen but I can see strong suggestions for it. First, I think the lack of food during the past years was really what stated everything on to this path. After years of expansion, beaten back, expansion... Thyatis has absorbed different cultures into their own. Some willingly and some through slavery. All this was done without thought on what it was doing to the social background. Corruption grew in the government. Then, they were beaten by Alphatia and grain became scarce. The emperor dies and the new emperor starts reforms. Unfortunately, he also killed many rioting slaves. Suddenly, slavery isn't something to be complacent with. Starve or die. That would build up resentment all through that population. Will the poor think they are any safer? Also, weeding out the corruption doesn't mean that the population will see this as something good. These are master of lies and those lies will leave the effect of some seeing Eusebius's reforms as something other than a good thing. Also, other corrupt senators will make moves to protect themselves. Eusebius could find that some innocients falling to his reforms. A complete revolt could begin in which grow to engulf the entire nation. The economy really can't take anymore hits and a total collapse happen. The rebuilding of the empire will be what defines them from this point onward. It would also be the chance for the Byzantine aspects to flower. As Rome fell, Byzantine grew. The same thing is possible with Thyatis only without the move. Rome basically took what they conquered and refined it. Byzantine created and that is what Thyatis needs to remain an empire as the Known World grows and progresses. > I've seen some of what you're talking about based on your list posts, but > I'd like to hear more specific details (I.E. what direction you'd like > things to grow into). Just a few thoughts... Darokin, the Five Shires, Karamekos - An even stronger tie between them. This should lead to them becoming the major power in the region. Ethengar - A dangerous and unpredictable nation. One that frequently upsets other nations with raids. It would be interesting to see if any can stop them. But if you don't like much upset, have the Reaches, Heldannics, Wendar and Glantri wipe them out. Glantri - Darker. Definitely darker. Glantri shouldn't be feared because of magic only. Ierendi - Another problem nation. Needs more than being a 'pleasure' island. Don't know what exactly though. Minrothad - Joining with Darokin, the Shires, and Karameikos. They will reign supreme over the sea trade with that coalition backing them. Northern Reaches - A terror to the Isle of Dawn. Maybe even Thyatis will look juicy during their trouble. Wendar - Push the humans out. Especially with the Alfheim elves, humans shouldn't feel to welcomed. They've seen too much encroachment by humans to allow it inside their own border. Ylaruam - After some talks with Bruce on Ylaruam, I think a deeper spiritual outlook. Some will be fanatics in some ways. This land should be the harshest but with the happiest people. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:50:37 -0400 From: "Dimitry Zagadsky" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? are there any books on alphatia? i've never really understood the whole fact that it's in the hollow world. Heck, i never understood what the hollow world was. and, i have been away for almost a month, and i still haven't caught up on my e-mail, even after 1 1/2 weeks, still 2000 messages to go. "Banana's of the world UNITE!" - Dimitry Zagadsky *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:54:26 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > > Personally, I've never read or played a thing to do with FR except, I > think, the short-lived AD&D marvel comic book that I used to read wa-a-ay > back when ... I believe it was based in Waterdeep -- that's FR right?. That was from DC Comics. Not that awful Marvel house of stale ideas ;> This is the last time I mention the Realms on this list (I hope). I do think the best way to keep something like this from happening again is to simply not bring FR into the discussion (unless its how to use something from it in Mystara). - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:15:20 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Risp's Rant (was The Way I See It...) I've been DMing in Mystara on and off for 16+ years now and... Wouldn't it be great if the Mystara History went just the way you wanted it. Or, wouldn't it be great if the Mystara Future went just the way you wanted it. That would be just perfect. But wait, it can! Aren't we the DMs, does every thing just HAVE TO go the way the "books" go? Remember its YOUR world. If you don't like the direction others are taking it.... CHANGE IT! ! ! ! If you don't want the Knights of Vanya in the Freeholds, then take them out (they are not in the newest setting of Mystara I'm starting) In one version of Mystara I ran, all Hin were evil psionicist bent on world domination. They did this by manipulating rulers to attack one another, killed political figures and place puppets in their place, etc. It was a very dark Mystara. And we had fun. Also, the PWA are not written in stone. I seem to remember in Sind or Ylaruam there was a person that had a vision/dream from some immortal and started to perform some miracles. Because the group I was DMing happened to be in Karameikos at the time I read that, I turned it in to a charlatan that said he saw visions of Halav, who told him to lead the Traldar in retaking their rightful lands. The local Lord hired the PCs to flush the charlatan out. When the PCs caught up to him the smooth talker persuaded them to join the cause. Thru a series of adventures and a couple of War Machine games they retook the lands. Before they could do much with it though Thyatis came in and retook it. Which led to another story... You can, with little work change anything. Adventures can change things: One game I ran was Glantri based. I sent the players thru X2 and just by bad luck (and I mean real bad) they did not make it past the west wing. When they started rolling new PCs they didn't understand why I said no Glantri backgrounds. They did when we started back up. They entered a Mystara with no Glantri (No Etienne to lead the country into greatness). Where Glantri was the land was now owned and fought over by Darokin, Sind, Wendar and Ethengar. Many other things were different and you should have seen the players eyes' pop out. I'll quit my rant with this last thought: DMs / Players its YOUR world and YOUR game, do with it as you please. And most of all HAVE FUN ! ! ! ! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:38:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Here's a thought on a possible Patera-Mystara connection or at least the justification of one for the Patera project I've been working on. Recall the Well of the Moon in module X5: Temple of Death? Deep in a valley in the Black Peaks, guarded by a red dragon, sits this well that, on the nights of the full moon, creates a stairway to the moon of Mystara. Perhaps similar devices exist that allowed certain Rakasta tribes access to Patera? Or perhaps the Well of the Moon is an abandoned Rakastan artifact left by Rakasta migrating towards the Savage Coast? Thoughts? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:40:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > 3. Retake Westrourke. Duke Firestorm needs to receive a lesson in > loyalty. Nuff 'said. Westrourke is still a part of Thyatis, last I checked (Firestorm's hopes for independence aside). Perhaps just shrinking the size of Westrourke's domain and putting other people in there might do just as well. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:05:34 -0600 (MDT) From: John Hare Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life > I wished Bruce had written the Ethengar Gazetteer. Perhaps > more people would have read it. :-( Hey I read it. Just don't use it much. But I still like it. Maybe it has something to do with the idea that some spirits aren't real bright. Kinda like the ones our shaman got. :) "If death is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." -Solomon Short _A Season for Slaughter_ John Hare *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:09:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? > > are there any books on alphatia? i've never really understood the whole fact > that it's in the hollow world. Heck, i never understood what the hollow > world was. > Other than DotE, there are no "books"/Gazzeteers on Alphatia. *However* some enterprising folk are working on creating OL "Gazzeteers" for the various Alphatian Kingdoms. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:28:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed > will likely be Ethengar, the Northern Reaches, and Atruaghin. > Northern Reaches is 3 Kingdoms already; add in Heldan (similar commoner population, just with a "nasty" overcaste), and you've got 4 nations covered. Atruaghin, Sind, Yvaldom, & the Great Waste in general could be lumped together: not a lot of similarities, but they put Sind & Yvaldom in the Champions of Mystara box, and it seemed to work ok (the descriptions were even "abreviated" compaired with full Gaz. length). Ethengar I dk what you'd "lump in" with. But, then, even *making* such a suggestion would have the Khan after you, so perhaps that's for the best. 8-) > > As to the fall of Thyatis? > Well, not *fall* per se, but changes/evolution. > slaves. Suddenly, slavery isn't something to be complacent with. Definately something that has to, IMO, go. How to do it is the question. . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:49:25 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OOP Mystara GAZ & AD&D Mystara at KayBee in new orleans there are a lot of kay bee stores selling ad&d stuff cheap too, starting price is $2.99 for the dark sun freedom adventure Aron Reif wrote: > At 03:28 PM 7/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Just got back from my local mall (Whittwood Mall in Whittier, CA) and > >decided to take a visit to the KayBee Toy store there. Couldn't believe > >what I saw, Dawn of the Emperors for $12, plus the Castle of Amber AD&D for > >$6, Karamekieos for $6, tons of Dragon Dice dice game boxes going for $4 > >each, and a few AD&D accessories like the Priest Players kit (the plastic > >box with miniatures, etc) for $6 and Red Steel for $6; _all_ unopened in > >shrinkwrap! > > > >They had _plenty_ of each, I counted at least 12 DotE boxes, all brand new > >_unopened_, which is a shock if you are used to seeing RPG stuff at places > >like KayBee or Toys R Us in their opened, dogeared norm. Not sure about > >other KayBee's but if you are in Whittier CA or close by, check it out. > > > > actually, I've seen these at several different KayBee stores around the > Washington, D.C. area. I haven't seen any DotE boxes, but I've found Red > Steel, Savage Baronies, K:KoA, the plastic Players kits, and a bunch of > Dark Sun stuff, all for VERY low prices. I've been meaning to let the list > know of this, but I haven't had a lot of free time. Thanks for reminding me. > > Aron Reif > areif@erols.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:08:02 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization > From: James Ruhland > > I start all my games at 1st level and continue with what I see as > > the progression level the designers probably figured on. I hand out > > the kind of magic and spells I feel are comensurate with the intended > > heroic feel of D&D. > > > Problem IMO would come then as PCs rise in levels: if they're used to being > allowed to cast whichever spell they need (and have access to) "on the > spot" without having to go through the process of memorizing (and thus > making a mistake and not memorizing a spell they'd like to have), then they > become rather unstoppable. OK James, not to be too rude but: you can IMO all you like, but I am telling you straight out, from over ten years of experience with the system (When did the Expert set come out? I don't recall and no longer have mine) that the system does not greatly increase the power level of spellcasters over others in the game, and have used the system in campaigns that reached 22nd level. As I said before, it just hasn't been a problem. No other player has complained that the spellcasters were ubercharacters that took the wind out of anyone else. Everyone shined with consistency. > Of course, the problem is somewhat less in D&D, because their are fewer > available spells in any case (unless the PCs reasurch a lot 8-).) I use a large number of AD&D spells in my games and it still hasn't been a problem. > Also, IMO, it makes players more creative if they have to memorize. Since > the "perfect" spell to solve a problem isn't always available, PCs have to > improvize more often. I have found the creativity in playing a character with an interesting style of magic, while still capable of being effective, far outweighs this. > > Why is this? Because when a wizard has to sit down and choose > > all of his spells before hand, it becomes hard for him to sacrifice > > what he sees as truly effective spells for what are generally more > > interesting and "colorful" spells. That's not bad roleplaying, just > > sensical. > > > I have to agree with you on this one. Not having to memorize *does* lead to > a rise in the use of more "esoteric" spells that might otherwise never be > used at all. > So that's a good point, and I'll have to consider it further. Of course it is a good point. : ) And it is an important one, too. The standard D&D/AD&D magic system is, well, just bad. It has all the fun of a calculus exam. I don't want to spend 15 minutes trying to figure out what spells to use every morning. The system feels amazingly unheroic, and screams "I am a leftover of the game's wargaming roots!" But that's just me, I suppose. Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #532 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 533 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? RE: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... [MYSTARA] - KayBee Toys [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:14:18 PDT From: "Rebbekah Shafer" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life > From: Rob > > > Neat! I didn't know we had Mystara personalities on the list! > >Are there any others? > > But, it looks like Bruce needs to relax! > > > Damn straight, someones ripping the best setting of all! I don't recall actually "ripping" on anything. You will know when I am ripping on something! ; ) > (I guess this is the "fickle ally" thing). :). What did you expect from the goddess of death and decay? :p Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer ladyhela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:24:45 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life does lupin pc already have swimming as a proficiency Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > > From: Rob > > > > > Neat! I didn't know we had Mystara personalities on the list! > > >Are there any others? > > > But, it looks like Bruce needs to relax! > > > > > > Damn straight, someones ripping the best setting of all! > > I don't recall actually "ripping" on anything. You will know when > I am ripping on something! ; ) > > > (I guess this is the "fickle ally" thing). :). > > What did you expect from the goddess of death and decay? :p > > Rebbekah "Hel" Shafer > ladyhela@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:03:31 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? In a message dated 98-07-20 13:48:06 EDT, you write: << I'm not so sure. I would think that the trading activities of Minrothad would decrease after being conquered by Thyatis. But this can be decided freely by the possible authors. >> jamuga <> fabrizio i pasted these two responses together as they are very similar. for a resolution to operation hydra, the thadders are given gosh darn good peace terms. the invasion ends without thyatian troops setting foot on dwarven or elven islands. the guilds are left alone. the demihumans gain a degree of self rule. what thyatis wants is their tribute/taxes and the harbor facilities. who better to run the guild businesses than the guilds themselves? thyatian governers and troops will be there but given the disbanding of the mercenary guild the troops and thyatian navy will have a definite purpose as defense forces. the governor will be a political tool. remember that thyatis conquers and absorbs by making conquered folk citizens. and remember that stereotypical thyatian efficiency. imagine that "belief" being adopted by the thadders. business should be good. as a part of the empire minrothad trade will not be as subject to import/export taxes and tarrifs. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:22:23 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? another double paste concerning the same message. In a message dated 98-07-20 13:49:00 EDT, you write: << << but the US also aided England several times. aside from military alliances, the US has been a staunch trade partner and political ally of England since the War for Independance. the war of 1812 was not singularly the US helping France. there were several other factors involved in that one. >> jamuga khan responded: <> Patrick Sullivan responded: <> not really sure if the two of yall are agreeing or disagreeing..... my point exactly. just because a nation breaks away does not mean there is an indefinite hostility between the two. for karameikos the situation is much different than the US and England. karameikos and thyatis are next door neighbors. i think a good rw hypothetical example would have been the USA and the CSA. If the south had successfully broken away (won civil war) then i see the two being trade partners. something likely along the lines of present day US and Canada. you could just use the US and Canada, but i tossed in the North and South as the two were really at each other's throats. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:02:20 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >Ierendi - Another problem nation. Needs more than being a 'pleasure' >island. Don't know what exactly though. Ierendi is cool. The Makai are into voodoo and Haiti type stuff (Elegy Island = Haiti). Plus, if you are into ripping off ideas from films, Ierendi's prison island (I forget the name) sounds almost identical to Alcatraz. >Minrothad - Joining with Darokin, the Shires, and Karameikos. They will >reign supreme over the sea trade with that coalition backing them. Seems Minrothad wants to be more matey with Ierendi. Ierendi has the hard navy, Minrothad has the merchany navy. Course, they would lose to Vilaverde and Texeiras :) >Ylaruam - After some talks with Bruce on Ylaruam, I think a deeper >spiritual outlook. Some will be fanatics in some ways. This land >should be the harshest but with the happiest people. Fundamentalism from Civ2 - Under fundamentalism no citizen is ever unhappy... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:02:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >> Definately NOT! Thyatis is too good a villan to be allowed to die >> quietly in it`s sleep. >> > If it's a villian, then IMO Osterhaus should take over. He's a much better >villian anyhow, and if it becomes the Hattian Empire then at least the >pretence that Thyatis is just one (flawed) nation in a world of many >(flawed) nations, few who are strictly speaking "evil", will be over. > Plus, I view this somewhat as the "Zhentil Keep"/"Red Wizards" effect: a >"good villian" who is constantly thwarted, suffers from Orbital Bombardment >(and other disasters), and otherwise your "snidely whiplash" inneffectual >"villian" is more of a laughingstock than something to be feared. When was Thyatis hit by Orbital Bombardment? I can't remember it in WotI, was it in one of the PWAs?!? btw, completely agree about villians, nasty guys should be feared! Funny guys should be laughed at :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:49:51 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... What Skills and Powers obscenity? no way I do realize that you can get a really powerful character if you are a power player, But otherwise it is a brilliant move away from the 'class' idea (bad idea). (i.e. you need good players to use this wisely) but I still love D&D, with it's restrictive view, its quaint, and of course it has the best setting. Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob [SMTP:rmunch@easynet.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, July 20, 1998 9:41 AM > To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... > Of course, 2nd eds been around for a long time now, and its start to > suffer > (The Old Republic fell under an unwieldy bureacracy, it looks like > AD+D does > periodically as well.) I equate the Skills and Powers obscenity > (which I > dont really consider to be true 2nd edition - its more like 2nd > edition > Version 2) with Unearthed Arcana - which was probably comparatively > worse. > Same with all these kits - theres just too much. > > ROB > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:00:11 -0500 From: Brunciak Subject: [MYSTARA] - KayBee Toys Hello! Ah...KB toys. If any of you ever find one, go in! They have so many reduced items. I was able to buy DotE for 2.99, CoM for 4.99, the HW boxed set for 2.99 and most of the AD&D Mystaran items for no more than 3.99! Sadly, though I think I've bought every D&D item in every KB store around me. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:13:27 -0500 From: Brunciak Subject: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Hello fellow Mystarans! I have been reading the posts on the Thyatian Empire and have decided to try to sum up many of the thoughts on the Empire and solutions to its many problems. I will address its culture and its current state of turmoil. After my post, I ask that you read the segments from other messages that have helped me to formulate my thoughts and PLEASE RESPOND! The first issue that should be resolved is Thyatian culture. There are those that say that it never really had its own culture; that it borrowed from many others. Well, yes, Thyatis has borrowed much of its culture from other ones. However, these have melded together to form a seperate Thyatian culture, one that resembles the Roman Empire. Thyatis resembles the Roman Empire much more than the Byzantine-the fact that its a military empire, the fact that it is an empire which seeks to expand and not to consolidate and hold onto what it has, it is an ocean-going empire more than a land-based one;the list goes on and on. In addition, the Roman Empire had a culture which absorbed others. If you headed into a house in Rome, you could see a statue of a Greek god right next to an Egyptian goddess, much like Thyatis' cultural absorbtion. With this said, many people would want Thyatis to change and stop declining, either by recovering now or falling and starting over again. Thyatis' current state is a sad one. It is hardly what you can call an empire, its goverment is in shambles, its society seems to be falling apart and its economy has suffered terribly. What is needed next? Should Thyatis fall or should it begin to recover? Thyatis seems to have already fallen. The Spike Assault was just the first sign. Thincol managed to recover the empire for awhile. However, WotI and the following years has basically ruined the empire. Perhaps what is needed is one more event which will signal an end to the old empire and the birth of a new one. Whatever the case, Thyatis has to change. The following is my answer. What I propose is a series of events I call "The Byzantine Effect". These will lead to a transformation of Thyatis to an almost completely new nation. Under the Old Thyatian/Roman way, the Empire was a militaristic one. It ruled others with military might and its economy was based on receiving money through conquest and tribute. Under the New Thyatian/Byzantine way, Military Imperialism would be replaced by Cultural Imperialism. The military would not be an aggresive force seeking to conquer but a defensive force. Instead, diplomats comprised of ambassadors, religious leaders, powerful merchants, and others would venutre out to neighboring nations to seal trade agreements, military alliances, and other peaceful bonds. The Byzantines did this and Thyatis must. Another thing which must change is the very fabric of the culture. DotE seemed to come off as saying that treachery was a way of life-a national pastime. This must stop. Thyatis should become more Byzantine. This change, however, may be difficult. First, there is no Christian-like religion which could replace a polytheistic pantheon. Also Greek overtook Latin as the primary language; yet their is no language to replace Thyatian. Perhaps these change are not needed to change the culture. What's more important is for Thyatis to find its roots. It may seem like I'm going nowhere with this but what follows are steps Thyatis must take. 1) Thyatis is at the crossroads of Mystara much like Byzantium was on Earth. Therefore, it has the great opportunity to become a garagantuan trading empire. To do this, Thyatis must make treaties with most of its neighbors and former enemies. Recognize, its former territories, such as Karameikos and the Pearl Islands and make treaties with all of its enemies. Once this is done, start to negotiate trading treaties with all of these nations. This will finally begin to bring Thyatis out of economic turmoil. 2) Begin peaceful colonization efforts in Davania. The goal is twofold. First, it will help to let the Empire grow in so many ways. Secondly, and perhaps very important, colonization in Davania will help Thyatis to find its roots when people hopefully begin to find out about the true origins of Thyatis in Davania. This could help to spark the cultural transformation. 3) The military will be used only to protect the Empire, its trade routes and for defensive roles. (Maybe Thyatis needs a conflict in which its not the aggressor but a victim.) With these steps in action, Thyatis should start to recover economically, militarilly, and culturally. I think that the way the empire is headed right now is towards riun and that if it is to go on, then a complete change must happen. I believe that a change to a different society, from one based on the military and aspects of Rome to one based on culture, trade, and aspects of Byzantium, is the right path and a needed one. Bob (Thanks to all of you who've helped me with your ideas!) Kaviyd@aol.com wrote > I think I have a few ideas on that score. The collapse of the old Thyatian > Empire is by AC 1015 pretty well complete; what is needed to prevent > further problems is for Eusebius to take some realistic measures to > stabilize what is left. Here are some of the steps he can take: > > 1) Formally recognize the independence of Karameikos, Ochalea, and > the Pearl Islands. Since there is no realistic prospect of reconquering > those nations in the near future, he may as well reduce tensions with > them. He can, of course, reconsider his options once they have let their > guard down.... > > 2) Negotiate peace treaties with Ylaruam and NACE, assuming that the > military situation is now a stalemate. If possible, include mutually > lucrative trade policies in the treaty. > > 3) Abolish slavery, perhaps using a variant of the method used in Brazil > in the late 19th century. Basically, what Eusebius would decree (and > if possible have confirmed by the Senate) is that everybody born after > a certain date is a citizen and not a slave. > > 4) Encourage the founding of new colonies, but of a different type than > before. Instead of attempting to conquer other peoples, Eusebius would > encourage his people to emigrate to otherwise uninhabited areas and > develop them. If this is done right, Eusebius can create a new commercial > empire to replace the old military empire. I am not suggesting that he > disband the Imperial army -- far from it. But its purpose would shift from > conquest to defending the Empire's interests. > > Of course, there would be some opposition to these measures. If things > go well for Eusebius, his principal opposition will be from the Hattians, > and he will be able to put them down decisively. If he can show some > collusion between the Hattians and the Heldannic Knights, he could use > that collusion as a pretext to "liberate" the Heldannic Territories. Such > a campaign would leave the reputation of Thyatis at an all time high. James Ruhland > 1) Thyatis could work diplomatically to improve relations with Minrothad, > thus gaining a firm ally (one that could be tied to Thyatis through trade, > Thyatis being the biggest available market). > 2) Stefan can't ignore his Thyatian population, or his homeland, forever. > Even if he is collaborationist scum. He could be "encouraged" to stop his > trecherous flirtations with NACE/Alphatia, and return to an alliance with > his homeland. > 3) The Twaelar thing: already that has encouraged Thyatis to "reach out" > to Ierendi. Close cooperation could help end the bad feelings over old > animosities, and create stronger, friendlier ties. Plus, like Minrothad, > Thyatis (being the most highly populated realm) is a good friend for > Ierendi: ok, so the Thyatians are somewhat "down" now, but if/when they > recover, they would form the largest potential source of tourists. So a > good deal for both nations. > As I said at the end of one of my screeds, you *don't* have to conquer > everyone outright. Good friends and allies make a nation stronger, too. > > Also, I *do* hope that some folks will consider ideas for an "internal" > recovery (economic or social reform, a return to prominince of elective > senators/republicanism, etc.) which could make Thyatis a more "lovable" > place in general (something conquering your neighbors will never do, unless > you're the NACE). > And I still point out that it would be possible to aquire land elsewhere, > preserving the "Imperial" status of Thyatis by recovering Ochalea & Pearl > Islands, re-absorbing Westrourke & Helskir, and expanding into Davinia. > This would represent a *real* recovery, returning the Empire to it's 1000 > AC borders PLUS Dunadale, Aegos, and new areas in Davinia. It's nothing to > scoff at. > The Davinia thing could be quite an adventure, too; Thyatis might find out > more about it's own origins. Kaviyd@aol.com wrote > But I think what we are seeing in the decline of Thyatis is a very fast > transformation of Thyatis from "Rome" to "Byzantium". The original > Roman Empire controlled most of the Mediterranean by force -- and > most of the subjects of that empire did not regard themselves as > Romans. However, after the fall of Rome, the failure of efforts by > Justinian and others to reconquer the West (somewhat reflected in > the PWA wars), and the lost of the Middle East and North Africa to > the Moslems, the remaining core of the Eastern Empire was much > more stable and unified (the remaining people were mostly of > Greco-Roman culture) and indeed lasted for over a thousand years > after the fall of the Western Empire. > > So if that analogy holds up, then it becomes clear that the recovery > of Thyatis will begin only when its wars end -- but then it will be able > to regain much of its prestige rather than its power. Galwylin wrote: > Thyatis never had diversity. It had conquered lands. Its time Thyatis > found its own culture instead. Galwylin wrote: > As to the fall of Thyatis? I'm not sure if it will happen but I can see > strong suggestions for it. First, I think the lack of food during the > past years was really what stated everything on to this path. After > years of expansion, beaten back, expansion... Thyatis has absorbed > different cultures into their own. Some willingly and some through > slavery. All this was done without thought on what it was doing to the > social background. Corruption grew in the government. Then, they were > beaten by Alphatia and grain became scarce. The emperor dies and the > new emperor starts reforms. Unfortunately, he also killed many rioting > slaves. Suddenly, slavery isn't something to be complacent with. > Starve or die. That would build up resentment all through that > population. Will the poor think they are any safer? Also, weeding out > the corruption doesn't mean that the population will see this as > something good. These are master of lies and those lies will leave the > effect of some seeing Eusebius's reforms as something other than a good > thing. Also, other corrupt senators will make moves to protect > themselves. Eusebius could find that some innocients falling to his > reforms. A complete revolt could begin in which grow to engulf the > entire nation. The economy really can't take anymore hits and a total > collapse happen. The rebuilding of the empire will be what defines them > from this point onward. It would also be the chance for the Byzantine > aspects to flower. As Rome fell, Byzantine grew. The same thing is > possible with Thyatis only without the move. Rome basically took what > they conquered and refined it. Byzantine created and that is what > Thyatis needs to remain an empire as the Known World grows and > progresses. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:07:50 +0300 From: hihama@uta.fi Subject: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities I've been planning to write something about history of Glantris various principalities and their ruling houses. I have made some research about subject and i have some presuppositions to made which i want to you know and comment before i send any other works for list. I don't have either G:KOM or Mark of Amber so if there is anything in the following thats against information in those accessories please let me know. Settlers According to various sources thyatian settlers became to Glantri around 730 AC. They were escaping fighting in Alasiyan colonies in nowadays Ylaruam. Traladarans come around same time period. D'Ambrevilles and their first followers came some in 740's and McGregors and their followers in 750's. Alphatians come with Halzunthram in 780's. Interesting question is when ethengarians came. I have seen somewhere that they came during the 40 year war in 788-828. That might be possible because of the chaotic situation in area, but anyhow i just wonder why they were allowed to stay after war. One possibility is that they offer their help to Halzunthrams enemies and were essential to victory. Morphail and traladarans Interesting point is that Prince Morphail was made Nosferatu by Alphaks arond 720 AC and traladarans came to Glantri about 10 years later. This makes one wonder Alphaks' motives. Maybe Alphaks was behind Morphail's and his followers migration to Glantri. Alphaks want someone powerfull enough to make chaos amongst Flaems in Glantri. He fullfilled Morphails wish to become immortal by making him nosferatu and as the repayment he wants Morphail to take his people to Glantri. Morphail does this and heads for Glantris northeastern forests. Halzunthram Halzunthram and his followers came to Glantri in 788 and propably were decicive force in the Battle of Braejr were Flaems to combined forces of elves and settlers. The Glantri was devided in the three parts Flaems get north, elves south and settlers west. This makes traladarans position in nowadays Boldavia interesting, that area was definitely in north. Solution might be that traladarans were only settlers that Flaems accepted because leaders of traladarans were mages like Morphail. Traladarans might even have fight at the Flaems side. In GAZ3 they say that Boldavian are mixed traladaran and flaemish people and if remember correctly that is only case there is any mention for Flaem to mix with any other people. Before 788 Glantrian council was composed of 7 flaemish dukes and 1 archduke. After peace I think the council was propably recomposed so that there was 3 flaemish, 2 elves and 2 settlers so that it can represent all the Glantrian people. After Halzunthrams taking over and reclaring Glantri to Alphatias colony council was propably dismissed. Alexander Glantri In 829 Alexander Glantri declares the republic and reforms the council. Now there are seven members in council representing various ethnic groups in Glantri. There are 1 flaemish, 1 elf, 1 traladaran, 1 ethengarian, 1 thyatian, 1 alphatian and 1 for mixed hattian/alphatian group in northern Glantri. I think that in that time was also created parliament for other nobles and nobility system that exists still, I mean that baronies farthest from the capital and so on. Also offices like judge, spokesman, chamberlain and treasurer and 3 viceroys are propably created. It might be that each viceroy get the responsibility for building castle in place were council wants it to be build. By the way is anywhere mentioned Alexander Glantri's year of death? D'Ambrevilles and McGregors Interesting point in council reformation is why D'Ambrevilles and McGregors don't get representative in council in that time. Both groups have been in Glantri already nearly hundred years, much longer than ethengarians if accept the hypothesis that they came during the war. Possible solutions may be that they were still not very populous groups or that they were not influential enough, which is hard to believe at least for Etienne D'Ambreville or they might have been fighting for Halzunthram, but then again were most of the Alphatians. Any ideas? Apropos I think that the only reason for the expulsion of the dwarves after the war was not that they were blamed for the plague. I think that equal reason would be that they fight at the side of Halzunthram, he might even have called them to Glantri. Back to D'Ambrevilles. Etienne becomes immortal 845 and begins to build the Great School. I think Etienne must have been very influential in taking the Light of Rad decision in 858 and in expulsion of illegal nobles after that. And because of that I think that creation of his principality must be somewhere in 860's or 870's. Fine moment would be the completion of the Great School in 875. And I think that principality of Klantyre is created at the same time because other princes want to have someone who hates Etienne as a prince so that Etiennne doesn't get too much power. Light of Rad At the same time that this decision was made members of the council gain the hereditary title of princes and there are created principalities of Aalban, Belcadiz, Berghoven, Blackhill, Boldavia, Caurenze and Krondahar. As I say before perfect time for creating principalities of Klantyre and Nouvelle Averoigne is in my opinion in 875. Principality of Erewan is created in 884. I think thats everything at the moment. Please let me know if there are any flaws or mistakes. If anything goes as I have planned first princely house would be von Drachenfels. Harri Mäki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:23:35 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >What Skills and Powers obscenity? >no way >I do realize that you can get a really powerful character if you are a >power player, >But otherwise it is a brilliant move away from the 'class' idea (bad >idea). >(i.e. you need good players to use this wisely) > >but I still love D&D, with it's restrictive view, its quaint, >and of course it has the best setting. I know I'm on my own, but I am the biggest fan of classes there ever was. Having played many games, some with classes and some without, I am very much in favour of classes. Games without classes tend to turn into rampant powergaming havens (IMO - im pretty strict on powergaming). Even Star Wars, a game I love, seems to churn out characters with two skills, Blaster and Dodge, despite my best efforts to the contrary. Classes make your character truly unique compared to everyone else, no one can tread on anothers toes and steal their uniqueness, and its all balanced. Now you have proficiencies and stuff you can diversify in a limited fashion, so you can distinguish Joe Fighter from Bill Fighter. I just hope 3rd ed doesnt go by that obscene CP system - if it does it wont get a second look from me. At least, not until its a lot more balanced. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:47:35 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization In a message dated 7/21/98 1:10:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ladyhela@hotmail.com writes: > I use a large number of AD&D spells in my games and it still > hasn't been a problem. How many spells does the typical mage hold in your campaign? This subject depends completely on whether or not these mages have access to a large or small amount of spells. If the mage was allowed to hold as many spells as the PHB, Spells & Magic, Tome of magic, etc.... then this would obviously be unbalancing to the game no matter how you cut it. > The standard D&D/AD&D magic system is, well, just bad. It has all > the fun of a calculus exam. I don't want to spend 15 minutes trying > to figure out what spells to use every morning. The system feels > amazingly unheroic, and screams "I am a leftover of the game's > wargaming roots!" > But that's just me, I suppose. I've never found any complication in deciding on spells that would ever slow down the game. I enjoy the memorization process because it's a good weak point for the mage.For instance: It takes 10 minutes to memorize a needed spell to save you from impending doom..... The rest of the party make a circle around the mage so that he may relearn his spell and get them all out of the danger. Adventures that depend on time sometimes makes for some of the best adventures. Plus, I was wondering how you handle rememorizing spells during the day. If a first level mage casts her spell, does this mean she can't relearn it? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:49:40 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? You poor guy. Did you start with the AD&D sets? That would definitely throw anyone off! The Hollow World is kind of like a zoo for lost cultures. If you remember any of the old "Journey to the Center of the Earth" types of books and movies, that is exactly what the setting is like. The Immortals created/discovered this place and started populating it with races that were dying out topside. So when Alphatia sank, as a result of magic gone bad, it was moved to the Hollow World. Dimitry Zagadsky wrote: > are there any books on alphatia? i've never really understood the whole fact > that it's in the hollow world. Heck, i never understood what the hollow > world was. > > and, i have been away for almost a month, and i still haven't caught up on > my e-mail, even after 1 1/2 weeks, still 2000 messages to go. > > "Banana's of the world UNITE!" - Dimitry Zagadsky > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:52:14 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Yes! You are brilliant! I demand that you go immediately to the MMB and post this! There is currently a project going on there involving the moons of Mystara!!! Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Here's a thought on a possible Patera-Mystara connection or at least the > justification of one for the Patera project I've been working on. > > Recall the Well of the Moon in module X5: Temple of Death? Deep in a valley in > the Black Peaks, guarded by a red dragon, sits this well that, on the nights > of the full moon, creates a stairway to the moon of Mystara. Perhaps similar > devices exist that allowed certain Rakasta tribes access to Patera? Or perhaps > the Well of the Moon is an abandoned Rakastan artifact left by Rakasta > migrating towards the Savage Coast? > > Thoughts? > > ------------------------ > Cthuludrew, the Great Old One > (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) > "Actions have consequences." > URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #533 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 534 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? [MYSTARA] - Clerics in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:56:17 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Conquest #1 You know, not a bad idea. And given the "alien nature" of Ochalean culture to Thyatian culture...I don't know...I just see it as an incredible storyline here... Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > At 22.19 19/07/98 +0300, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > >I've proposed a plan for a "peaceful" retaking of Ochalea which involves the > >Ochaleans petitioning for rejoining. I am of firm conviction that Teng > >Lin-Dieu has been magically charmed by Alphatians :) > > What about doing it the other way around: all the Citizens of the Thyatian > Empire send a petition to Teng-Lin-Dieu asking him to rejoin the Empire. > When he sees such a long piece of paper signed by so many people, Teng > Lin-Dieu says "Oh, well... if so many people want me to rejoin the Empire, > then I'll do that". > It's an absurd idea, but it would be fun :-) > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:22:44 -0400 From: "Dimitry Zagadsky" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? - -----Original Message----- From: Daly To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? >You poor guy. Did you start with the AD&D sets? That would definitely throw >anyone off! > yea, i have the AD&D sets. Glantri, Karameikos, Night of the Vampire(adventure in karameikos), and Mark of Amber(adventure in Glantri) >The Hollow World is kind of like a zoo for lost cultures. If you remember any >of the old "Journey to the Center of the Earth" types of books and movies, that >is exactly what the setting is like. The Immortals created/discovered this >place and started populating it with races that were dying out topside. So when >Alphatia sank, as a result of magic gone bad, it was moved to the Hollow World. > Does it exist only in Mystara, or can it have races from other realms? >Dimitry Zagadsky wrote: > >> are there any books on alphatia? i've never really understood the whole fact >> that it's in the hollow world. Heck, i never understood what the hollow >> world was. >> >> and, i have been away for almost a month, and i still haven't caught up on >> my e-mail, even after 1 1/2 weeks, still 2000 messages to go. >> >> "Banana's of the world UNITE!" - Dimitry Zagadsky >> >> *************************************************************************** >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >> 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:19:38 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Dimitry Zagadsky wrote: > So > when > >Alphatia sank, as a result of magic gone bad, it was moved to the Hollow > World. > > > > Does it exist only in Mystara, or can it have races from other > realms? Good question. One assumes from canon that the Immortals use it specifically for Mystaran species and races. But I see no reason why they couldn't squeeze "other worldly" creatures in...especially given that so many Mystaran races ARE "other worldly"... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:09:58 -0400 From: "Dimitry Zagadsky" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Clerics in Glantri Does anyone think that there is some way of getting the Council of Princes to allow clerics free use of magic and all... in Glantri? One of my character's goals is to have equality amongst mages and clerics there. My character is the head priest of the god of dragons in the Forgotten Realms, he is allowed to cast wizard spells because dragons can too. Every time he goes to Glantri (via portal) he has to pass of as a mage wearing a dark cloak. it's fun being disguised, but he feels it is an injustice. Anyone have ideas for an adventure that would help convice CoP? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:18:56 +0200 (METDST) From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR First of all, bravo to Mischa and all the guys who helped him fleshing out the Jennites so brightly. I really enjoyed the work, especially the new Tattooist class, which is what makes the Jennites a bit more unique. I would have liked to see something more on the way Jennites exploit their horses, but I reckon that it's difficult to plan a Gaz. ;) Now, these are the only flaws I spotted or doubts I had after reading it: HISTORY << Oltecs by this point were predominant, but Skandharians and Afridhi, Blackmoorians, Tanagoro and Azcans all were part of the remnants of the past that remained. Banding together in these bleak days, they eventually formed one culture eventually, that of the Jennites. This culture was also heavily influenced by the Horsemen of Peshwah, then dying out as well from the effects of the cataclysmic events. From the Horsemen, the Oltecs and other former slaves learned the mastery of the horse as well as some of the magic and language of the Peshwah. By the time things had stabilized around 2700 BC, no trace of the original cultures had remained and the Jennite culture had formed.>> So, you say the Jennites are the race derived from a mix of different ones (Oltecs, Skandharians, Afridhi, Blackmoorians, Tanagoro and Azcans) and they were heavily influenced by this Peshwah culture. Now, two questions: with all the cultural differences and influxes of the different races that are the base of the Jennite culture, why is it that the Peshwah (who were NOT among the Jennites' forefathers) had so much influence on the new society? If it was that inlfuent and powerful, why did it crumble? And last: who are the Peshwah and the Skandaharians? (I've never heard of them) <> So, if I understood correctly: the Rathanos whorshipping Jennites (more sedentary) were the coastal tribes and those worshipping Tarastia were the inland tribes (nomads) right? Or was the coastal/inland division no more applicable to these tribes (timespan is 1900-1600 BC)? << Naturally, these two cultures started to conflict, with the stronger Tarastian culture eventually vanquishing the other in 1600 BC. The Tarastian culture though had suffered grievous losses and could not maintain its level of existance, especially with the slow rise again of the Thonians. Tarastia left the coastlanders, now fully Jennite, as well as some remnants of the tribes loyal to her, but moved the majority of them into the Hollow World to maintain their civilization.>> So, the Tarstian tribes won but suffered greatly (a Phyrric victory) and so she basically transplanted the majority of the tribes to the HW to preserve them. Now, why? This was basically condemning all those who remained to exctinction, wasn't it? And who were those Thonians who were rising again in BC 1600 (don't remeber them from canon timeline)? Refresh my memory a bit: who are then the Jennites who live now in Skothar? Aren't they the majority there? And aren't they Tarastia worshipping tribes? So what happened in the outer world after Tarastia abandoned them (sort of..) to their destiny? RELIGION << All Jennites celebrate the same festivals, commemorating great military victories achieved with the help of Tarastia to agricultural cycle-based festivals to new moon celebrations.>> New moon celebrations in the HW?.. The Law << The Pandect of Tarista Tarista has bestowed upon the Jennites four cornerstones to build their lives upon. Each Jennite strives to maintain a superior level of the Pandect. >> Uh, Tarista? Is this the name used by Tarastia among the Jennites or is it just a mistake? FOREIGN RELATIONS << The Jennites war with all three of their neighbors and also trade with both empires. The relationship with the Milenians is even more love-hate than the one with the Nithians.>> You explain well the relationship between Jennites and Milenians, but nothing is told of the relationship with Nithians.. NEW PRIEST SPELLS << Guardian of the Dead Firstly, the tomb can not be detected normally except by family members or clerics of Tarastia - otherwise magic must be employed. Secondly, any coming to the area with evil intents is attacked by two spectres or eight topis (see X8 or DMR2).>> Does this imply that the Jennite practice those kind of rituals that allow the creation of topis (for I don't think these creatures simply appear in mid air once the spell is triggered..)? If so, then does this also mean that in every burial mound other corpses are buried beside the "owner" of the tomb, and it is these corpses who are turned into topis and spectres or what? Also, what about that fabled Jennite Mound said to exist somewhere in the Jennite lands and containing a great treasure..? I remember having read about it in the past, but I cannot remember where and if it was in an official supplement or what.. NEW SPECIALTY MAGE <> Do they have spellbooks to learn from or do they meditate like priests? How do they learn and cast their spells (both mages' and tattoos' spells)? COMBAT <> What does it mean "a 5% more likely to inflict double damage"? Is there a standard percentage to inflict double damage with knives (I don't remember it)? Could you make a Weapon Mastery table for this akinae? SAMPLE MAGICAL TATTOOS <> And this means (in term of game stats)? << Level 7:Multiple Tattoo I Duration:Instantaneous Effect:Allows the caster to place twice as many tattoos as normally allowed by the particular spell in the same amount of time normally taken to inscribe the standard allowed by that spell. Range:Touch>> Two things are missing: Time to Inscribe and Placement. Also, what does this mean "Duration: instantaneous" in this case? I mean, how long could one go on inscribing twice as many tattoos as normally allowed? Last thing about magic: since Tattooists are able to cast tattoos and MU spells, could they in theory use Permanency to make a tattoo permanent? And would this count as a permanent spell on the person (remember: a living being cannot have more than 2 permanencies cast on him/her)? So, my last words are: well done Mischa! Again, another proof of your love for the Hollow World cultures which has brought us an interesting piece detailing a so far ignored (more or less) society. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:32:34 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? A different slant. Maybe all those realms who Thyatis should invade offer the hand of friendship and help in the rebuilding. Sort of like was given to Darokin after the master trasked the place. It`s much harder to go to war with someone who`s helping your economy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:41:26 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Cthuludrew: At 08:38 PM 7/20/98 -0700, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: >Recall the Well of the Moon in module X5: Temple of Death? Deep in a valley in >the Black Peaks, guarded by a red dragon, sits this well that, on the nights >of the full moon, creates a stairway to the moon of Mystara. I think Daly was pointing you to the MMB because of some work going on with the Moons of Mystara there (notably the development of a 'Hollow Moon' idea by Rotipher -- VERY good stuff, if you ask me!). Also, though, a while back, Bruce posted a long story set about the Heldanic Knights which mentioned 'Dragon Altars' and someone else then posted an development about these 'Dragon Altars' and used this Well of the Moon as the basis for one. I /think/ that you should be able to find the text at "nought's" (Gordon McKormick's) "unofficial" MMB Archive page, at http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers (the 'spoliers' is so his players don't go there). He tries to collect all the "good stuff" off of the MMB and he's got the Bruce's story there (which spawned the 'Draconic Altar' idea) so I can't see why he'd leave off the Dragon Altars one. Just thought you might be intererested. :-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:47:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > When was Thyatis hit by Orbital Bombardment? I can't remember it in > WotI, was it in one of the PWAs?!? > That was coming in JA II, but it was never released. 8-)~ (Actually, the O.B. was a reference to the "Nuking" of Zhentil Keep). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:07:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Jenni wrote: > Also, though, a while back, Bruce posted a long story set about the >Heldanic Knights which mentioned 'Dragon Altars' and someone else then >posted an development about these 'Dragon Altars' and used this Well of the >Moon as the basis for one. I /think/ that you should be able to find the >text at "nought's" (Gordon McCormick's) "unofficial" MMB Archive page, at >http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers (the 'spoliers' is so his players don't go >there). He tries to collect all the "good stuff" off of the MMB and he's >got the Bruce's story there (which spawned the 'Draconic Altar' idea) so I >can't see why he'd leave off the Dragon Altars one. I'm afraid I don't have that one, I try to grab as much as I can, but it's kinda time consuming (hence the very unofficial bit in the MMB archive page...), I've asked on the MMB if the original author has it, so it might show up. BTW, I'd highly recommend the Hollow Moon stuff on the MMB, very different and nicely thought out. gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:10:27 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Why not wage war with the Heldannics? If successful you get back at Vanya and if your only a little less oppressive than the knights you`ll be regarded as liberators rather than conquerors ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:04:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > > What I propose is a series of events I call "The Byzantine Effect". > These will lead to a transformation of Thyatis to an almost completely > new nation. > Such a change won't happen overnight, but in gameworlds I see no reason why there can't be some "accelerated" change (evolutions occuring in a few years rather than decades or centuries). Still, though, even with an "accelerated evolution", don't expect a completely new Thyatis by the end of, say, 1016. > The military would not be an aggresive force seeking to conquer but a > defensive force. Instead, diplomats comprised of ambassadors, religious > leaders, powerful merchants, and others would venutre out to neighboring > nations to seal trade agreements, military alliances, and other peaceful > bonds. The Byzantines did this and Thyatis must. > A good idea. First, though, Thyatis must convince folks to trust them enough to sign such agreements & alliances. > Another thing which must change is the very fabric of the culture. DotE > seemed to come off as saying that treachery was a way of life-a national > pastime. This must stop. Thyatis should become more Byzantine. This > change, however, may be difficult. First, there is no Christian-like > religion which could replace a polytheistic pantheon. Also Greek > overtook Latin as the primary language; yet their is no language to > replace Thyatian. Perhaps these change are not needed to change the > culture. What's more important is for Thyatis to find its roots. > Agreed. Davinia (mentioned by you below) would be a good place to start this process. . . > > 1) Thyatis is at the crossroads of Mystara much like Byzantium was on > Earth. Therefore, it has the great opportunity to become a garagantuan > trading empire. To do this, Thyatis must make treaties with most of its > neighbors and former enemies. Recognize, its former territories, such > as Karameikos and the Pearl Islands and make treaties with all of its > enemies. Once this is done, start to negotiate trading treaties with > all of these nations. This will finally begin to bring Thyatis out of > economic turmoil. > Only problem I forsee with this, specifically, is that Minrothad & Darokin are already the OW's "trading nations". If Thyatis could "replace" one, then that would be one thing (but there are numerous problems with that, IMO). This isn't a "realism" point (many nations can operate trading networks. . .well, that's not *presicely* true, but. . .) It's more of a "game dynamics" problem: the KW already has two nations known for trade, does it need another merchantilistic nation? I guess this brings us back to some of the discussions reciently (OpHyd &tc) about "absorbing" Minrothad somehow, but folks raised some (valid) objections to that. IMO, Thyatis *DOES* need to become more of a merchantile nation and less of a militaristic one. It's colonies/ex-colonies would form it's first "natural" trading partners. But that *would* cause conflict with the "Thadders". > 2) Begin peaceful colonization efforts in Davania. The goal is > twofold. First, it will help to let the Empire grow in so many ways. > Secondly, and perhaps very important, colonization in Davania will help > Thyatis to find its roots when people hopefully begin to find out about > the true origins of Thyatis in Davania. This could help to spark the > cultural transformation. > A good one. So far I haven't seen *anyone* object to this. > 3) The military will be used only to protect the Empire, its trade > routes and for defensive roles. (Maybe Thyatis needs a conflict in > which its not the aggressor but a victim.) > The war with the Twaelar is something like that, so far. What Thyatis *may* need is a war where it is in the role of protecting the independance of *another* nation from agression by, say, the Master. This would serve two purposes: 1) Get the Thyatians used to the idea of not using their military as a weapon to bludgeon others into submission, but rather as a tool to help friends (as you suggest). 2) Get other nations to view Thyatis as a friendly helper, rather than a threat (see your point about encouraging alliances et al): they'd then be more likely to sign agreements with Thyatis. > With these steps in action, Thyatis should start to recover > economically, militarilly, and culturally. > Only thing I'd add is that for a economic & cultural evolution towards a "better" society to occur, slavery must wither away. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:49:07 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? BTW has anyone thought about the adventuring parties of the countries invaded? High level parties will really screw up any initial assault with their resources. Asmall army can be decimated within a few minutes by a surgical strike, as can a fleet. As someone pointed out magic on the battlefield change the rules. High powered magic LAUGHS at them ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:37:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cptn. Stardust" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs There`s one point that you haven`t considered. Inbreeding can also IMPROVE the stock as long as you severely cull the defectives that crop up. This is one way to gain colour variation in mink, caged birds etc _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:58:16 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > > Why not wage war with the Heldannics? If successful you get back at > Vanya and if your only a little less oppressive than the knights you`ll > be regarded as liberators rather than conquerors > True that no one likes the Heldannic Knights. And a case could be made for Thyatis intervening to "liberate" Oceansend, at least. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:59:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > BTW has anyone thought about the adventuring parties of the countries > invaded? High level parties will really screw up any initial assault > with their resources. Asmall army can be decimated within a few minutes > by a surgical strike, as can a fleet. As someone pointed out magic on > the battlefield change the rules. High powered magic LAUGHS at them > You're making the mistaken assumption that Thyatis hasn't got access to the same (or greater) resources in this regard. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:08:12 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs Eeewww! Cptn. Stardust wrote: > There`s one point that you haven`t considered. Inbreeding can also > IMPROVE the stock as long as you severely cull the defectives that > crop up. This is one way to gain colour variation in mink, caged birds > etc > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR > First of all, bravo to Mischa and all the guys who helped him fleshing out > the Jennites so brightly. I really enjoyed the work, especially the new > Tattooist class, which is what makes the Jennites a bit more unique. Thanks for letting us know the work was appreciated! As for them coming across as unique, that is good news since I was worried that they may have come out looking like the Ethengarians' 2nd incarnation. > I would > have liked to see something more on the way Jennites exploit their horses, > but I reckon that it's difficult to plan a Gaz. ;) Not the way I do it, which is the lazy way. Draw up a list of topics then write up about them. Anything you come across in research and in discussions get tossed in if it fits. Cecil expressed worry originally that they might come across as too horse-obsessed and I think we had a bit much as is on that topic. We considered magic specifically regarding horses but couldn't come up with too much on that. > Now, these are the only flaws I spotted or doubts I had after reading it: Thanks for pointing out anything you consider contradictory or flawed BTW so that these can be removed for a more edited version. > HISTORY > > So, you say the Jennites are the race derived from a mix of different ones > (Oltecs, Skandharians, Afridhi, Blackmoorians, Tanagoro and Azcans) and they > were heavily influenced by this Peshwah culture. Now, two questions: with > all the cultural differences and influxes of the different races that are > the base of the Jennite culture, why is it that the Peshwah (who were NOT > among the Jennites' forefathers) had so much influence on the new society? > If it was that inlfuent and powerful, why did it crumble? And last: who are > the Peshwah and the Skandaharians? (I've never heard of them) Answering in reverse order.. They were described in the Blackmoor modules, mainly DA1. The Peshwah were a horse-based nomadic culture who I thought would be a good base for the Jennites to have formed from. They weren't a major power, but something to be reckoned with. The Skandharians were barbarian sea raiders. As for why the influence came more from the Peshwah I look at it this way - - many of those kept in slavery would have lost their cultural rootsor have had that influence diluted. The former slaves would see this culture that was fairly strong and intact while theirs had (to their knowledge) died off and thought hey, why don't we learn from those who have managed to survive. Much of this theory of course comes about because I needed some reason to give the Jennites their fondness for the horse :) > face. This group had become less nomadic and more stationary, only mounting > their horses when entering combat.>> > > So, if I understood correctly: the Rathanos whorshipping Jennites (more > sedentary) were the coastal tribes and those worshipping Tarastia were the > inland tribes (nomads) right? Or was the coastal/inland division no more > applicable to these tribes (timespan is 1900-1600 BC)? I didn't consider the coastal/inland division as applying here. Both the Rathanos-worshippers and the Tarastia-worshippers would have been horse-based, the latter more nomadic. The coastal Jennites had already split off earlier. > So, the Tarstian tribes won but suffered greatly (a Phyrric victory) and so > she basically transplanted the majority of the tribes to the HW to preserve > them. Now, why? Because that's how Allston explained it. I tried to stick to the canon as much as possible. Besides, who are we to understand the mind of an Immortal? ;) > This was basically condemning all those who remained to > exctinction, wasn't it? Or to a much lesser value of life. The Jennite culture declined majorly with this move. > And who were those Thonians who were rising again in > BC 1600 (don't remeber them from canon timeline)? Refresh my memory a bit The Thonians were THE empire before Blackmoor. They still exist according to DA1 (and the master set map as well) on Skothar. They have declined big time, a decline that began with the rise of Blackmoor. I think they would have recovered quite a bit after the GRoF though and started to force out the Jennites now in their former lands, especially with the Jennite infighting. > who are then the Jennites who live now in Skothar? A much more barbaric peoples. There was a bit of info on them in DoTE but how related they are to the HW ones is not quite clear. They're obviously at a lower level of 'culture' but they are also quite numerous. I don't know who exactly has done anything re:them on the list but Herve Messeau (IIRC) is doing something with them. > Aren't they the majority there? Perhaps.They certainly occupy a huge chunk o' land. >And aren't they Tarastia worshipping tribes? Not a clue. I know they are religious though and they still may be Tarastia-worshippers. > So what happened in the > outer world after Tarastia abandoned them (sort of..) to their destiny? They lost a lot of ground and standing and are a now a stone-age culture that has not been developed. Many were enslaved by the Alphatians in the period before WOTI, but discussion on the list as to the fate of that group had several opinions. Some thought they'd overthrow their formal slavemasters, some thought they'd make deals with them, some thought they'd join NACE. I much prefer the first view, maybe a step towards a resurgent OW Jennite presence. > RELIGION > << All Jennites celebrate the same festivals, commemorating great military > victories achieved with the help of Tarastia to agricultural cycle-based > festivals to new moon celebrations.>> > > New moon celebrations in the HW?.. EEK! Big-time error :) > The Law > << The Pandect of Tarista > Tarista has bestowed upon the Jennites four cornerstones to build their > lives upon. Each Jennite strives to maintain a superior level of the > Pandect. >> > > Uh, Tarista? Is this the name used by Tarastia among the Jennites or is it > just a mistake? Typo that popped up alot. Herve also has informed me that Tangoro is the proper term, not Tanagoroans. Darn. > FOREIGN RELATIONS > << The Jennites war with all three of their neighbors and also trade with > both empires. The relationship with the Milenians is even more love-hate > than the one with the Nithians.>> > > You explain well the relationship between Jennites and Milenians, but > nothing is told of the relationship with Nithians.. Well, I covered that a bit, though I focused on the Milenians more. Mostly because the RW Scythians interacted more with the Greeks than with the Egyptians according to my readings. > NEW PRIEST SPELLS > << Guardian of the Dead > > Does this imply that the Jennite practice those kind of rituals that allow > the creation of topis (for I don't think these creatures simply appear in > mid air once the spell is triggered..)? If so, then does this also mean that > in every burial mound other corpses are buried beside the "owner" of the > tomb, and it is these corpses who are turned into topis and spectres or what? I see the undead as having been placed there by Tarastia, rather than having formed from bodies in the tomb. I really don't see a problem with them appearing in mid-air as you say except this might go against the Spell of Preservation's Summoning limits. Maybe they only appear when an intruder comes? > Also, what about that fabled Jennite Mound said to exist somewhere in the > Jennite lands and containing a great treasure..? I remember having read > about it in the past, but I cannot remember where and if it was in an > official supplement or what.. Never heard of it, sorry. Maybe one of the PWAs (which I don't have)? > NEW SPECIALTY MAGE > < Tattooists can cast standard magic-user spells, but learn them at much > slower rates.>> > > Do they have spellbooks to learn from or do they meditate like priests? How > do they learn and cast their spells (both mages' and tattoos' spells)? I don't see a huge problem with the standard spellbook. A drawing of each tattoo with some mystical explanations as to how it works. The Jennites are literate I believe. > COMBAT > < leg in place of the normal daggers when used. A wielder of an akinae gets > -1 to hit, due to the extra caution required, but is 5% more likely to > inflict double damage. >> > > What does it mean "a 5% more likely to inflict double damage"? Is there a > standard percentage to inflict double damage with knives (I don't remember > it)? Could you make a Weapon Mastery table for this akinae? 5% more likely - 1 on d20. For example: (from memory, so exact stats may be off) Standard dagger Basic-D d4 Skilled-D d6 Double Damage on 20 +2 to hit Expert-D 2d4 Double Damage on 19-20 +4 to hit Akinae Basic - D d4 -1 to hit Double Damage on 20 Skilled- D d6 Double Damage on 19-20 +1 to hit Expert - D 2d4 Double Damage on 18-20 +3 to hit Etc.. Is a separate chart neccesary? More explanation? Or just the example like I gave added in? > SAMPLE MAGICAL TATTOOS > < Duration:1 week > Design:Eagle eye, roughly 2" from top to bottom and from side to side > Effect:Improves the wearer's vision to that of an eagle. >> > > And this means (in term of game stats)? No clue ;) Up to the DM perhaps...? I assume visibility depends on cloudiness, rain and other weather factors so maybe no simple stat will explain matters. > << Level 7:Multiple Tattoo I > Duration:Instantaneous > Effect:Allows the caster to place twice as many tattoos as normally allowed > by the particular spell in the same amount of time normally taken to > inscribe the standard allowed by that spell. > Range:Touch>> > > Two things are missing: Time to Inscribe and Placement. Also, what does this > mean "Duration: instantaneous" in this case? I mean, how long could one go > on inscribing twice as many tattoos as normally allowed? Time to inscribe is mentioned in effect as the same as normally taken..placement would be the same locations as usually allowed...they take effect immediately and would last as long as normal. Did anyone else have trouble understanding this one?..for once I thought I actually explained myself well :) > Last thing about magic: since Tattooists are able to cast tattoos and MU > spells, could they in theory use Permanency to make a tattoo permanent? And > would this count as a permanent spell on the person (remember: a living > being cannot have more than 2 permanencies cast on him/her)? I doubt it. Maybe there is a Permanency Tattoo spell instead? I would consider these spells seprate from MU ones when it comes to issues of technicality and labeling. > So, my last words are: well done Mischa! Again, another proof of your love > for the Hollow World cultures which has brought us an interesting piece > detailing a so far ignored (more or less) society. You should thank Cecil to for his work but I'm sure he appreciates the praise as much as I do. I would like to thank you in turn for the criticism as every bit helps! One can never become a better writer unless one is told what they're doing wrong after all or what they need to think about more. No society which is aspiritual will survive - Paul Tsongas, 1995 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #534 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 535 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics in Glantri [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League [MYSTARA] - Re: Clerics in Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs [MYSTARA] - Homepage updated!! Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:35:49 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Seven Sisters >"(who, in the interest of amity, and the survival of my realm, will remain >nameless)" > Oh, no problem, I got it the first time. Maybe I'm already used to your screeds *shudder* :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:48:07 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? >Nagpa of the Vulture Peninsula, Abatu and Lothir (the two princes who >played a big part in Varellya's downfall) don't seem to match any culture >I know of. Any ideas, anyone? For the other names (Naxith, Ossir, >Astarra, etc.), I tried to continue the general tone of the first two Based on my (limited) knowledge of linguistics and different cultures' names, these could fit e.g. Phoenicians, Syrians or other Palestinian peoples of the ancient world. Phoenicians are connected to Carthage, of course. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:54:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? >Jenni wrote: >> Also, though, a while back, Bruce posted a long story set about the >>Heldanic Knights which mentioned 'Dragon Altars' and someone else then >>posted an development about these 'Dragon Altars' and used this Well of the >>Moon as the basis for one. I /think/ that you should be able to find the >>text at "nought's" (Gordon McCormick's) "unofficial" MMB Archive page, at >>http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers (the 'spoliers' is so his players don't go >>there). He tries to collect all the "good stuff" off of the MMB and he's >>got the Bruce's story there (which spawned the 'Draconic Altar' idea) so I >>can't see why he'd leave off the Dragon Altars one. http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers/altars.html gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:06:26 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Brunciak wrote: > > The first issue that should be resolved is Thyatian culture. There are > those that say that it never really had its own culture; that it > borrowed from many others. Well, yes, Thyatis has borrowed much of its > culture from other ones. However, these have melded together to form a > seperate Thyatian culture, one that resembles the Roman Empire. Just a note here. When I first learned of the Roman Empire, I thought it quite grand. After learning more, I found that the cultures it had absorbed were much more interesting. This is probably why Thyatis in its present condition has never seemed as interesting to me. That and the other nations of the Known World are *based* on real world cultures while Thyatis is almost an exact copy of Rome. > Under the Old Thyatian/Roman way, the Empire was a militaristic one. It > ruled others with military might and its economy was based on receiving > money through conquest and tribute. Under the New Thyatian/Byzantine > way, Military Imperialism would be replaced by Cultural Imperialism. > The military would not be an aggresive force seeking to conquer but a > defensive force. Instead, diplomats comprised of ambassadors, religious > leaders, powerful merchants, and others would venutre out to neighboring > nations to seal trade agreements, military alliances, and other peaceful > bonds. The Byzantines did this and Thyatis must. Agreed. There is no room in the Known World for a non-diplomatic culture. It should either control the region or be destroyed by the others. The threat is too close to allow it to continue. In either case, Thyatis in its present condition is doomed. To itself or the other nations of the Known World will become the barbarians at the gate :) > Another thing which must change is the very fabric of the culture. DotE > seemed to come off as saying that treachery was a way of life-a national > pastime. This must stop. Thyatis should become more Byzantine. This > change, however, may be difficult. First, there is no Christian-like > religion which could replace a polytheistic pantheon. Also Greek > overtook Latin as the primary language; yet their is no language to > replace Thyatian. Perhaps these change are not needed to change the > culture. What's more important is for Thyatis to find its roots. While there is no single religious force, there are changes that will and should come from this change concerning religion. For instance, both Halav and Vanya are worshipped in Thyatis. These two are at odds. It would be possible that a trimming of which Immortals are worshipped to be trimmed. In this case, we have Vanya, a patron of Thyatis. We also have Halav, a strategist. Both have war as part of their portfolio. Will the Thyatis that is to come go with the thinker or a patron? I would expect a Byzantium-like Thyatis to go with Halav but will they be able to oust a patron? Language isn't an issue mainly because it is the primary language of all the Known World so the Thyatian language doesn't have the reputation that Latin did to Greek. > 1) Thyatis is at the crossroads of Mystara much like Byzantium was on > Earth. Therefore, it has the great opportunity to become a garagantuan > trading empire. To do this, Thyatis must make treaties with most of its > neighbors and former enemies. Recognize, its former territories, such > as Karameikos and the Pearl Islands and make treaties with all of its > enemies. Once this is done, start to negotiate trading treaties with > all of these nations. This will finally begin to bring Thyatis out of > economic turmoil. I think so too. Thyatis is being left behind in trade. This should really be a large part of their way of life but their militaristic attitudes have made them something to watch rather than trust. This will be one way how Minrothad is defeated without raising a sword (if they ever wanted to remove that player from the field). > 2) Begin peaceful colonization efforts in Davania. The goal is > twofold. First, it will help to let the Empire grow in so many ways. > Secondly, and perhaps very important, colonization in Davania will help > Thyatis to find its roots when people hopefully begin to find out about > the true origins of Thyatis in Davania. This could help to spark the > cultural transformation. So Davania will show Thyatis what and who it is? Interesting idea. > 3) The military will be used only to protect the Empire, its trade > routes and for defensive roles. (Maybe Thyatis needs a conflict in > which its not the aggressor but a victim.) Actually, Thyatis has had many moves against it that it seemed to over look. Minrothad's rise. Irenedi's navy. Karameikos's relations. If you agree with the ideas behind NACE, then it also hasn't instilled the loyalty that Alphatia gathered or the solidarity. > With these steps in action, Thyatis should start to recover > economically, militarilly, and culturally. I think that the way the > empire is headed right now is towards riun and that if it is to go on, > then a complete change must happen. I believe that a change to a > different society, from one based on the military and aspects of Rome to > one based on culture, trade, and aspects of Byzantium, is the right path > and a needed one. I also think the Byzantine model will serve them best. Once they were stopped from expanding by Alphatia, the look at themselves should have started this change. For some reason it didn't (well, writers didn't write it so that was the reason ;). If they change (as they must) to a Byzantium model, I think this could be the most interesting nation in the area with a longer life than its past. After all, there aren't any Crusaders around to destroy it ;> - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:14:55 -0700 From: "Joe Gerber" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia- books?? - -----Original Message----- From: Dimitry Zagadsky >From: Daly >>The Hollow World is kind of like a zoo for lost cultures. If you remember >any >>of the old "Journey to the Center of the Earth" types of books and movies, >that >>is exactly what the setting is like. The Immortals created/discovered this >>place and started populating it with races that were dying out topside. So >when >>Alphatia sank, as a result of magic gone bad, it was moved to the Hollow >World. > Does it exist only in Mystara, or can it have races from other >realms? Up to the DM. :) (Also, a good number of Mystaran races, including Alphatians, are really transplants anyway.) The rules hint that it's mostly Mystaran races, but that's due more to the fact that most of the Immortals that use it are Mystaran-based. Joe (If you can, try and find the old Hollow World boxed set.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:13:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > the area with a longer life than its past. After all, there aren't any > Crusaders around to destroy it ;> > Well, there are the HKs. . . . .and if Vanya is "displaced" (she'd deserve it, IMO) as a patron immortal, then she'd certainly have a reason to "encourage" them to take action (eventually) against Thyatis. Of course, right now, such action would be doomed to failure (the HKs aren't strong enough right now). But who knows what the future might bring. :( *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Future: redemable? On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > Actually, the HW sets say the Milenian Empire is Greece, while the Traldar > are classical Greece. But then again, since when has that stopped > anyone? :P I'm about to put my rules lawyer wig away for a bit and go hide now :D Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:48:36 -0400 From: Michael Ray Johnson Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Rebbekah Shafer wrote: > OK James, not to be too rude but: you can IMO all you like, but I am > telling you straight out, from over ten years of experience with the > system (When did the Expert set come out? I don't recall and no > longer have mine) that the system does not greatly increase the power > level of spellcasters over others in the game, and have used the > system in campaigns that reached 22nd level. > As I said before, it just hasn't been a problem. No other player > has complained that the spellcasters were ubercharacters that took the > wind out of anyone else. Everyone shined with consistency. I got rid of memorisation in my campaigns ages ago as well, and just allow wizards and clerics to cast whatever spells they know up to the maximum they're allowed to cast per level. I completely agree with you that this does not unbalance the game. And I use AD&D where there is an absolutely absurd number of spells (so many that it's utterly impossible to remember what they all do, and that's in the Player's Handbook alone). > > Of course, the problem is somewhat less in D&D, because their are > fewer > > available spells in any case (unless the PCs reasurch a lot 8-).) > > I use a large number of AD&D spells in my games and it still > hasn't been a problem. In my one of my current games which has been running for a few years now, the gnome Illusionist from Serraine has reached 15th level. He spends a lot of time researching spells (a lot of spells of his own creation) and hoards all the spellbooks of defeated villainous wizards that he can get his hands on. As a result, in his own spellbooks (which IIRC number about five now), he knows a total of over 100 spells. Now, I can hear a lot of people screaming that this character must be massively over-powerful. But in all honesty (and you'll have to trust me here), he isn't. His added flexibility in spell choice, has not made him noticeably more powerful than an equal level wizard who has to memorize spells. The character's wife is a 14th level fighter. If for some reason they ever had a battle (which is unlikely, but in order to make a point), the winner would almost definitely end up being whoever was lucky enough to win initiative.I have noticed one thing that actually detracts from a wizard's power since I stopped using memorization about seven or more years ago. Since the wizard has all his/her spells available at any time to choose from, wizard characters often cast spells in minor situations where the wizard who has to memorize spells would be unable to or would choose not to. Thus, when the really terrible monster shows up in the evening, the wizard suddenly finds him/herself with few spells left. In fact, the player of the fifteenth-level illusionist mentioned above, has made a flippant attitude towards casting spells (ie casting spells just to handle everyday situations or to make illusionary flowers for his wife) part of her character's personality and something he has never learnt not to do. > I have found the creativity in playing a character with an > interesting style of magic, while still capable of being effective, > far outweighs this. I fully agree. > > I have to agree with you on this one. Not having to memorize *does* > lead to > > a rise in the use of more "esoteric" spells that might otherwise never > be > > used at all. > > So that's a good point, and I'll have to consider it further. > > Of course it is a good point. : ) And it is an important one, too. > The standard D&D/AD&D magic system is, well, just bad. It has all > the fun of a calculus exam. I don't want to spend 15 minutes trying > to figure out what spells to use every morning. The system feels > amazingly unheroic, and screams "I am a leftover of the game's > wargaming roots!" > But that's just me, I suppose. Someone else pointed out (sorry, I can't remember who) that because there are so many spells in AD&D, this forces a player to be creative without having to get rid of memorisation. Having played in many games with other DM's who use memorization, I've found that this is not the case at all. There is a stock set of spells that everyone memorises each day and they really couldn't care less about any other spells. These inlude Magic Missile, Fireball, Lightning Bolt and a few others. Once characters reach a high enough level that they still have spaces open after memorising these stock spells, they just start memorising the same spells for a second time. This is another problem I have with memorisation. The idea of memorising something twice just doesn't make logical sense to me. How does a person sit down, after having memorised one spell, and then rememorise it as if he doesn't already have it in his memory? Anyway, to get back to the original point, I've found that memorisation does not encourage creativity in spell selection, no matter how many spells are available. Michael. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:57:22 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? > True, but would Minrothad traders continue to be as efficient as now even > under Thyatian rule? > I doubt this. Thadders aren't greedy merchants (as maybe the Darokinians), > they've a strong sense of honor and IMO they'll refuse to work to pay taxes > to Thyatians. Probably those merchants will scatter to the winds and work > as indipendent merchants in the many ports of Mystara (from Norwold to > Herath). And it's nearly impossible even for the Thyatians to catch all Thaddans. They might switch from a country to a trading company and they might founds establishments all over the World. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:05:36 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life > Hey I read it. Just don't use it much. But I still like it. Maybe it has > something to do with the idea that some spirits aren't real bright. Kinda > like the ones our shaman got. :) You will be given a silver dragon tablet for travelling safe through all Ethengarian controlled territories. :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:04:40 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics in Glantri > Does anyone think that there is some way of getting the Council of Princes > to allow clerics free use of magic and all... in Glantri? One of my > character's goals is to have equality amongst mages and clerics there. My > character is the head priest of the god of dragons in the Forgotten Realms, > he is allowed to cast wizard spells because dragons can too. Every time he > goes to Glantri (via portal) he has to pass of as a mage wearing a dark > cloak. it's fun being disguised, but he feels it is an injustice. Anyone > have ideas for an adventure that would help convice CoP? There's a very simple solution for that problem: Let the Ethengars conquer Glantri, and clerics would no longer be forbidden! This is really a serious proposal, as it's Mongol way to change not to much of the customs in occupied countries. The thing with the clerics would be one of the few which would change then. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:12:11 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League Concerning all these discussions about Thyatian conquest I remember an old idea of mine, that Ierendi and Minrothad should join the Western Defense League. It would not be a really threat to Thyatis as all countries are together not strong enough to harm the Empire but it would make aggressive actions of Thyatis not worth the labour. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:24:59 +0200 From: Antonio =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=F3pez?= Mercader Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Clerics in Glantri I cant give you ideas for an adventure at this moment but i can say you how the adventure ends : the cleric is DEAD, R.I.P. >Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:09:58 -0400 >From: "Dimitry Zagadsky" >Subject: [MYSTARA] - Clerics in Glantri > >Does anyone think that there is some way of getting the Council of Princes >to allow clerics free use of magic and all... in Glantri? One of my >character's goals is to have equality amongst mages and clerics there. My >character is the head priest of the god of dragons in the Forgotten Realms, >he is allowed to cast wizard spells because dragons can too. Every time he >goes to Glantri (via portal) he has to pass of as a mage wearing a dark >cloak. it's fun being disguised, but he feels it is an injustice. Anyone >have ideas for an adventure that would help convice CoP? - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Web Page at - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:20:09 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) At 05.13 21/07/98 -0500, Brunciak wrote: >Hello fellow Mystarans! > >I have been reading the posts on the Thyatian Empire and have decided to >try to sum up many of the thoughts on the Empire and solutions to its >many problems. I will address its culture and its current state of >turmoil. After my post, I ask that you read the segments from other >messages that have helped me to formulate my thoughts and PLEASE >RESPOND! Congratulations! I like it. >change, however, may be difficult. First, there is no Christian-like >religion which could replace a polytheistic pantheon. A while ago someone (forgot who) proposed to introduce Gareth in Thyatis. Given the peculiar teachings of Gareth (no Immortal intervention, mortals are no puppet of the Immortals...), its cult is certainly suitable for a monotheistic religion. The cult of Gareth is slowly spreading from Sind in to the KW and the SC. It could enter Thyatis using the direct way via Darokin, but I would like better to have it enter Thyatis via Espan colonists who get back home. This would make Gareth cult more Christian-like IMO. What about Rickard Prospero (Thyatian, former PWA owner and now correspondant from the SC for the Net Almanac) gets back home bringing with him news of Gareth? Almanac Team? > Also Greek >overtook Latin as the primary language; yet their is no language to >replace Thyatian. Perhaps these change are not needed to change the >culture. What's more important is for Thyatis to find its roots. > If Hattians seize the power in Thyatis there'll be a change in language, but I don't think this is what you had in mind :-) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:29:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? At 02.03 21/07/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >for a resolution to operation hydra, the thadders are given gosh darn good >peace terms. Ok, just one more question. Will Thyatians control what the merchants bring in? Otherwise merchants could easily smuggle weapons (maybe Red Steel ones), magical items, adventurers from far away lands... - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:32:20 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > A while ago someone (forgot who) proposed to introduce Gareth in Thyatis. > Given the peculiar teachings of Gareth (no Immortal intervention, mortals > are no puppet of the Immortals...), its cult is certainly suitable for a > monotheistic religion. > He'd need a better name, though, for operating in Thyatis. > > What about Rickard Prospero (Thyatian, former PWA owner and now > correspondant from the SC for the Net Almanac) gets back home bringing with > him news of Gareth? Almanac Team? > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:33:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > A while ago someone (forgot who) proposed to introduce Gareth in Thyatis. > Given the peculiar teachings of Gareth (no Immortal intervention, mortals > are no puppet of the Immortals...), its cult is certainly suitable for a > monotheistic religion. > He'd need a better name, though, for operating in Thyatis. > > What about Rickard Prospero (Thyatian, former PWA owner and now > correspondant from the SC for the Net Almanac) gets back home bringing with > him news of Gareth? Almanac Team? > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:23:18 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs > Eeewww! A "really" helpful and "understandable" message. :-7 Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:38:41 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Homepage updated!! Who wants to know a little bit more about the underside of Alphatia? Look on my homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:52:38 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > If Hattians seize the power in Thyatis there'll be a change in language, > but I don't think this is what you had in mind :-) No Fabrizio, the fact that Thyatians have Roman names and Hattians German ones does not mean that the Thyatians speak Latin and the Hattians German. Instead they all speak Thyatian. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:01:15 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization I have been "listening" to the Memorization debate and I must say that while I use an adapted "spell levels" system, I borrow from the 1st Ad&d Int check to see if my mages can even learn the spell. Once mastered, they can use spell "levels" to cast it, but they don't all know fireball. So when a mage fails to "grok" lightningbolt, flame arrow starts to look okay. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:34:32 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans >>Bruce - if you're out there, could you shed some light as to who the Varellyans were supposed to be based on, if anyone?<< [Geoff] I don't recall actually giving them an actual ethnic origin. That's pretty much up to anyone to adapt the material to whatever is convenient to their campaigns. Unfortunately, I've lost five of my original files (episodes #2-#6) of Princess Ark, so I have no easy way of referencing the really old stuff. I hope the old floppies are still where I think they should be... This stuff that dates back to 1990 or 1991. Sheesh. :o) Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 98 18:39:22 PDT From: Cecil Cosman Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR ] Mischa wrote: > The Law > << The Pandect of Tarista > Tarista has bestowed upon the Jennites four cornerstones to build their > lives upon. Each Jennite strives to maintain a superior level of the > Pandect. >> > > Uh, Tarista? Is this the name used by Tarastia among the Jennites or is it > just a mistake? Typo that popped up alot. Herve also has informed me that Tangoro is the proper term, not Tanagoroans. Darn. Just wanted to claim that typo, I did the religion section. my typo. heh > Also, what about that fabled Jennite Mound said to exist somewhere in the > Jennite lands and containing a great treasure..? I remember having read > about it in the past, but I cannot remember where and if it was in an > official supplement or what.. Never heard of it, sorry. Maybe one of the PWAs (which I don't have)? It's somewhere on the outside of the planet though I don't think it's ever been stated where exactly it is on the outside. > So, my last words are: well done Mischa! Again, another proof of your love > for the Hollow World cultures which has brought us an interesting piece > detailing a so far ignored (more or less) society. You should thank Cecil to for his work but I'm sure he appreciates the praise as much as I do. I would like to thank you in turn for the criticism as every bit helps! One can never become a better writer unless one is told what they're doing wrong after all or what they need to think about more. Heh, I'm just glad someone aside from us actualy read it and had some decent thoughts about it. I had a lot of fun doing it and I'm planning on doing another one as soon as I have some free time. Sticking with the HW I think I'll do a Lighthouse one. C.Cosman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #535 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, July 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 536 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do! Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... [MYSTARA] - Archive Update was (re: Jennite HWR) Re: [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:07:24 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Did I miss this, or speed-delete it, or was it sent out to a limited group? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:51:47 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? In a message dated 98-07-20 23:42:00 EDT, ANDREW.THEISEN@ASU.Edu writes: > Recall the Well of the Moon in module X5: Temple of Death? Deep in a valley > in the Black Peaks, guarded by a red dragon, sits this well that, on the nights > of the full moon, creates a stairway to the moon of Mystara. Perhaps similar > devices exist that allowed certain Rakasta tribes access to Patera? Or > perhaps the Well of the Moon is an abandoned Rakastan artifact left by Rakasta > migrating towards the Savage Coast? The only problem with your last suggestion is that it leads to the wrong moon -- but maybe the rakasta have a different artifact that connect Mystara with the invisible moon Patera. In any case, there has to have been some sort of method for the rakasta to have traveled between Mystara and Patera - -- it would seem to be very unlikely that rakasta evolved independently in both places. Given what Bruce Heard said about rakasta origins in that recent Dragon article, I would have to conclude that the rakasta were originally native to Mystara but that at some point not too long after their creation some of them found a way to reach Patera, where they multiplied until they dominated that world. In terms of game statistics, it would seem likely that most rakasta of Myoshima/Patera are of the "basic" variety, as they would never have been as isolated from one another as the many "breeds" of Mystaran rakasta were. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:51:54 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Females, oD&D, Ravenloft, etc. (was: Anyone play Basic? I Do! In a message dated 98-07-20 02:49:22 EDT, ChristianG@vircom.co.za writes: > Now if you can get this type of conflict in Mystara: > with both parties being 'good' but wanting to accomplish > different goals. > How about two 'good' religions wanting to help the people in different > ways, > What about two groups wanting to abolish slavery in Thyatia? > (One by revolts and stuff, the other 'through the system', and both > trying to prevent the other > since with revolts group 2 won't have a chance and group1 thinks > group2's way won't work ) > what other ideas of these differences of opinion could there be in > Mystara? This is an excellent idea -- just the sort of conflict that works better on Mystara than in any other gaming world. For inspiration, just take a look at Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" -- Huck never got over regarding "abolitionists" in the same way that we regard terrorists even though he came to realize that slaves such as Jim were in no way inferior to himself. It is a most valuable book in the way that it subtly attacks the then recently abolished institution of slavery while giving considerable insight into the attitudes of most people prior to the Civil War -- which is definitely a valuable insight into the attitudes of Alphatians of the post- Wrath era. It is slightly less valuable as a guide to Thyatian attitudes because Thyatian slavery has less of a racial element to it -- anyone of any race can be enslaved or can rise to the top. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:52:10 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... In a message dated 98-07-20 18:20:49 EDT, Inconu@aol.com writes: > I also realize that the campaign is formed by the DM and all worlds/ > campaigns are relative to the specific group, but the visage that the realms has > always shown (to me) was of a higher level setting. Could you elaborate on this point a bit? As near as I can tell, Mystara will support player characters all the way up to just before the point where they attain Immortality (and even beyond, if you are still using the D&D/WotI rules), whereas FR seems to support PC retirement around level 20 -- well before any PC could challenge Elminster or the like. Or did you have something else entirely in mind? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:52:04 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women In a message dated 98-07-20 08:17:28 EDT, michael.jones@diamond.co.uk writes: > Flossy says > > 'I seem to remember some dabate about 'realistic quasi fantasy settings'. It > seems silly to accept demi human, dragons ect and not equal females' The only problem with that argument is that demi-humans and dragons do not exist in the real world -- but males and females do, and we base our ideas of the abilities of male and female humans, at least, on what we know of their capabilities in the real world. The problem we ran into in 1st edition AD&D is that this game acknowledged the differences between the genders in terms of physical strength but not in any other areas, so female characters were made totally inferior to male characters in gaming terms. Those rules made character generation for humans totally unrealistic - -- males and females both made the same rolls for strength and no differences existed if they were not Warriors. However, if they elected to become Warriors and were lucky enough to roll strength scores of 18, then males could get a strength of 18/00 while females were limited to 18/50. It would have been more to the point to do something to reduce the physical strength of any female relative to a male of the same race while for game balance reasons offering some sort of compensation elsewhere. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:52:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... In a message dated 98-07-20 18:41:05 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: > So why did they write a whole GAZ about Karameikos only? :-) > Seriously, I think GAZ 1 implies that Karameikos in no more part of the > Empire, but an indipendent nation. True, Karameikos was an independent nation for 30+ years prior to AC 1000 -- but it did continue to call itself a "grand duchy" in order to perpetuate the idea that it was still somehow under the protection of Thyatis. Both Karameikos and Thyatis supported this fiction as long as it was in their best interests to do so -- WotI was the catalyst for Karameikos to drop this pretense. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:54:21 +1000 From: stan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Archive Update was (re: Jennite HWR) At 23:07 21 07 98 EDT, BoBoII wrote: >Did I miss this, or speed-delete it, or was it sent out to a limited group? You must have deleted it as it was sent to the mailing list. But, since I've just updated my homepage, the MML archive, you can access it there. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:31:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Gaming Companies, PC's, NPC's and Danger In a message dated 98-07-20 22:10:04 EDT, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > This is the last time I mention the Realms on this list (I hope). I do > think the best way to keep something like this from happening again is > to simply not bring FR into the discussion (unless its how to use > something from it in Mystara). As far as I am concerned, FR serves one purpose and one purpose only for us -- and that is that its products designed for non-Western cultures can often be adapted for use with Mystara. In particular, I would cite the settings of Maztica, Al-Qadim, and Kara-Tur -- in each case there was at least one Mystaran culture that could be expanded upon by use of the appropriate FR material. And certainly the "Great Glacier" supplement would be of interest to anyone who is working on detailing the cultures around the north polar opening. But my attitude towards any material that is particular to Toril and that cannot be appropriated to other setting is -- who cares? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:31:22 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Rakasta, lupins, and facts of life In a message dated 98-07-21 01:29:38 EDT, johnfoxx@bellsouth.net writes: > does lupin pc already have swimming as a proficiency Only if most characters have it by default, as there is no reason for the "dog-people" to swim better than other folks -- of course, traditionally the "cat-people" or rakasta have a natural aversion to water. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:31:38 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) In a message dated 98-07-21 12:19:12 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > I guess this brings us back to some of the discussions reciently (OpHyd > &tc) about "absorbing" Minrothad somehow, but folks raised some (valid) > objections to that. IMO, Thyatis *DOES* need to become more of a > merchantile nation and less of a militaristic one. It's > colonies/ex-colonies would form it's first "natural" trading partners. But > that *would* cause conflict with the "Thadders". The key to co-opting the "Thadders" would be to convince them that a closer union is in their best interests as well as those of Thyatis. The obvious deal that Thyatis can offer is to give the Minrothad Guilds economic control of a significant portion of their markets in return for granting the Thyatians military control of their major seaports. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:31:32 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? In a message dated 98-07-21 11:43:36 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > I think Daly was pointing you to the MMB because of some work going on > with the Moons of Mystara there (notably the development of a 'Hollow Moon' > idea by Rotipher -- VERY good stuff, if you ask me!). Is there an URL where we can find Rotipher's ideas? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:31:36 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) In a message dated 98-07-21 12:19:12 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > A good idea. First, though, Thyatis must convince folks to trust them > enough to sign such agreements & alliances. No problem there. The key is to start with somebody who is so desperate that they will accept help from anybody, no matter who they are. Have the most recent Net Almanacs left any nation that desperate? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:54:41 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) > > No problem there. The key is to start with somebody who is so desperate > that they will accept help from anybody, no matter who they are. Have the > most recent Net Almanacs left any nation that desperate? > Other than Thyatis itself? Well, Ylaruam has just been devistated in a war against various fiends, but I hardly see the Ylari signing any agreement with Thyatis, especially while it's governed by the Kin (plus, they just *won*, even if it was costly. Dey don' need no stinkin' Thyators). Some areas in Davania that have been overun by HKs, perhaps. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:09:03 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells and Memorization - ---- >Someone else pointed out (sorry, I can't remember who) that because there are >so many spells in AD&D, this forces a player to be creative without having to >get rid of memorisation. Having played in many games with other DM's who use >memorization, I've found that this is not the case at all. There is a stock set >of spells that everyone memorises each day and they really couldn't care less >about any other spells. These inlude Magic Missile, Fireball, Lightning Bolt >and a few others. Once characters reach a high enough level that they still >have spaces open after memorising these stock spells, they just start >memorising the same spells for a second time. This is another problem I have >with memorisation. The idea of memorising something twice just doesn't make >logical sense to me. How does a person sit down, after having memorised one >spell, and then rememorise it as if he doesn't already have it in his memory? >Anyway, to get back to the original point, I've found that memorisation does >not encourage creativity in spell selection, no matter how many spells are >available. Well, Ive heard all the arguments. I reckon I'll give it a bash for myself and see what happens (no memorisation). I'm still not sure that some of the above is true - while there are stock spells like Magic Missile and Fireball, you shouldnt really memorise just them, all the time. I dont know :) In the games here, theres a general assumption that mages (being smart cookies) are continually out to try to better themselves, make themselves more able to survive... ("So you can be a more efficient killer" - Terminator 2). I have had long out of character debates about subjects like which spell to have as a contingency (and the precise criteria for it being discharged), which spells to put in a chain contingency spell, what spell to guard against with counterspell immunity, and is Eluding the Death Blow better than Evards Black Tentacles (or confusion, or shout?). I figure that its a bit little BattleTech - in that game everyone seems to be constantly customising their Mechs, trying to find that "dream combination". AD+D is similar, except that there are far more spells than BattleTech has weapons... Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:24:11 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? At 02:31 22 07 98 EDT, Kaviyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-21 11:43:36 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > >> I think Daly was pointing you to the MMB because of some work going on >> with the Moons of Mystara there (notably the development of a 'Hollow Moon' >> idea by Rotipher -- VERY good stuff, if you ask me!). > >Is there an URL where we can find Rotipher's ideas? Enter the message boards. They're well worth it! stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:54:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? Kavyd wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-21 11:43:36 EDT, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > >> I think Daly was pointing you to the MMB because of some work going on >> with the Moons of Mystara there (notably the development of a 'Hollow Moon' >> idea by Rotipher -- VERY good stuff, if you ask me!). > >Is there an URL where we can find Rotipher's ideas? They're being discussed on the Mystara Message Board at http://www.tsr.com (click on the chat link). Since older stuff is deleted off the boards, the Hollow Moon info by Rotipher can also be found at http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers/hmindex.html (not always up to date!!!) hope this helps, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:24:31 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... In a message dated 7/21/98 11:58:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kaviyd@aol.com writes: >>but the visage that the realms has always shown (to me) was of a higher level setting. > Could you elaborate on this point a bit? Sure. Many of the Mystaran modules are geared to the lower level characters. Some are for the higher levels, but most allow any level PC to have minor to major influences on the outcome of the modules. In most FR modules, the lower level modules aren't able to end with such major changes. For example, the Mark of Amber module was a low-mid level module and allowed a major outcome with was directly effected by the PCs. I've never personally found a FR module to allow low level PCs to effect a country or major NPC in such a way. It seems to me that in FR the lines are more clear. Lower level characters can't end nations or chalenge NPCs such as the seven sisters. In Mystara seems to me more possible for such an event to occur. IMO both ways have their benefits, but that's how I view the Realms overall. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:51:11 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? >>Jenni wrote: >>> Also, though, a while back, Bruce posted a long story set about the >>>Heldanic Knights which mentioned 'Dragon Altars' and someone else then >>>posted an development about these 'Dragon Altars' and used this Well of the >>>Moon as the basis for one. I /think/ that you should be able to find the >>>text at "nought's" (Gordon McCormick's) "unofficial" MMB Archive page, at >>>http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers (the 'spoliers' is so his players don't go >>>there). He tries to collect all the "good stuff" off of the MMB and he's >>>got the Bruce's story there (which spawned the 'Draconic Altar' idea) so I >>>can't see why he'd leave off the Dragon Altars one. Say, does this mean I'm allowed to put the whole story on my site as well, along with John Yu's (IIRC) Draconic altars article? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:00:00 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? I don't think I would...not without express permission of the author. DM wrote: > >>Jenni wrote: > >>> Also, though, a while back, Bruce posted a long story set about the > >>>Heldanic Knights which mentioned 'Dragon Altars' and someone else then > >>>posted an development about these 'Dragon Altars' and used this Well of the > >>>Moon as the basis for one. I /think/ that you should be able to find the > >>>text at "nought's" (Gordon McCormick's) "unofficial" MMB Archive page, at > >>>http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers (the 'spoliers' is so his players don't go > >>>there). He tries to collect all the "good stuff" off of the MMB and he's > >>>got the Bruce's story there (which spawned the 'Draconic Altar' idea) so I > >>>can't see why he'd leave off the Dragon Altars one. > > Say, does this mean I'm allowed to put the whole story on my site as well, > along with John Yu's (IIRC) Draconic altars article? > > DM > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:17:18 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? At 11.00 22/07/98 -0400, Daly wrote: >DM wrote: >> Say, does this mean I'm allowed to put the whole story on my site as well, >> along with John Yu's (IIRC) Draconic altars article? >I don't think I would...not without express permission of the author. Actually, I asked Bruce for his permission to put the articles on my site, but he never replied... Is it a nice "Silent" way to tell me implicitely that he doesn't want I put them on my site? Say Gordon, did u ask them before uploading their articles on your site? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:30:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? DM Wrote: >Daly wrote: >>I don't think I would...not without express permission of the author. > >Actually, I asked Bruce for his permission to put the articles on my site, >but he never replied... Is it a nice "Silent" way to tell me implicitely >that he doesn't want I put them on my site? > >Say Gordon, did u ask them before uploading their articles on your site? Yup, I'm kind of worried about copyright stuff with even using the word Glantri on my web site, and authors can be even more aggresive than big companies!! :) If you ask on the MMB you're likely to get a quick reply from any of the authors.... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:46:40 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Patera- Mystara connection? At 16.30 22/07/98 +0000, Mr McCormick wrote: >DM Wrote: >>Say Gordon, did u ask them before uploading their articles on your site? > >Yup, I'm kind of worried about copyright stuff with even using the >word Glantri on my web site, and authors can be even more aggresive >than big companies!! :) > >If you ask on the MMB you're likely to get a quick reply from any of >the authors.... Well, eh eh *hysterical laughter*... It would really be easy, were it not for the fact that that damn thing SUCKS on my PC! It always crashes, so I have given up entering the MMB... Could u ask it for me... pleeeasee..? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:27:40 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 Ambreville@aol.com wrote: > I don't recall actually giving them an actual ethnic origin. That's pretty > much up to anyone to adapt the material to whatever is convenient to their > campaigns. This opens up a lot of leeway to the Davania team. Anyone working on Varellya? I want to know if they grok technomancy. > that dates back to 1990 or 1991. Sheesh. :o) Oh to be back in those days, when finding an out of print gaz was a LOT easier. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:57:13 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >> The Known World is a small area and could be >> covered if a single box (or book, preferably) as the Realms does with >> its different regions. > >*boggle* Covered in a single book perhaps, but not covered WELL. Each >Mystaran society is very complex and cannot be discussed in 7 or 8 pages But the Red Steel Blox did something similar with just as large an area. I agree that this should by no means be the only descriptions available of the Known World, but it would indeed be nice to see an official writeup of the entire region as a whole. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:14:26 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >But the Red Steel Blox did something similar with just as large an area. I >agree that this should by no means be the only descriptions available of the >Known World, but it would indeed be nice to see an official writeup of the >entire region as a whole. Sounds good to me! Thats the standard TSR tactic, anyway - one big box, than more detailed stuff. Like the Savage Baronies tack on (although I reckon it should have been a softback book, rather than a somewhat expensive box). I'm not a fan of boxes. They cost more, and they break when you accidentally tread on them while trying to navigate an extremely untidy room. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:46:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed > > I'm not a fan of boxes. They cost more, and they break when you > accidentally tread on them while trying to navigate an extremely untidy > room. > Hmmmn. . . .I disagree. Some of mine are battered, but they always make the box *way* bigger than it needs to be (well, not *always*), which means I can fit other stuff into it, making it handy for transporting related materiels to a gaming site or whatever. They *are* more expensive, individually. However, they're usually worth it. At least I think so during periods when I have cash. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:25:07 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Way I See It... >>Well, WotI is a bit like that. Alphatia is going to sink (canonically >>speaking, of course :) whatever Muggins the PC does. > >However, the PC's are involved in the sinking and depending on how the >final adventure turns out, may even cause it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:43:02 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > box *way* bigger than it needs to be (well, not *always*), which means I CoM was FAR too big for what was in it. 3 books, 2 maps and all those airship cards would fit fine in a WotI-sized box. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:55:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League At 20.12 21/07/98 +0200, Jamuga Khan wrote: > >Concerning all these discussions about Thyatian conquest I remember an old >idea of mine, that Ierendi and Minrothad should join the Western Defense >League. It would not be a really threat to Thyatis as all countries are >together not strong enough to harm the Empire but it would make aggressive >actions of Thyatis not worth the labour. I agree about Ierendi, though Honor Island mages won't probably use their Fireships to help other WDL nations. Anyway Ierendi can certainly enter the WDL even without those ships. About Minrothad I'm not sure. Would Darokin, currently the most powerful nation in the WDL IMO, allow another merchant nation into the WDL? And above all, why should Minrothad enter the WDL? People from Minrothad are pretty isolationist (remember when they closed their borders to foreigners just before AC 1000?). During WotI they stayed neutral and continued to trade with both of them. It sort of reminds Switzerland during WWII... and they're still neutral. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #536 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, July 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 537 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans [MYSTARA] - Spells what to do with em. [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans [MYSTARA] - Great Crater NPCs + Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:47:36 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) > > No problem there. The key is to start with somebody who is so desperate > > that they will accept help from anybody, no matter who they are. Have > the > > most recent Net Almanacs left any nation that desperate? > > > Other than Thyatis itself? > Well, Ylaruam has just been devistated in a war against various fiends, > but I hardly see the Ylari signing any agreement with Thyatis, especially > while it's governed by the Kin (plus, they just *won*, even if it was > costly. Dey don' need no stinkin' Thyators). > Some areas in Davania that have been overun by HKs, perhaps. Don't forget Sind. I believe they would rather get rid of those Huleans. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:43:18 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League > It sort of reminds Switzerland during > WWII... and they're still neutral. Yes, and why Germany didn't conquer Switzerland? It was better to keep Switzerland as a neutral country to sell the robbed gold. Right now they are getting trouble for this. So we can conclude: Minrothad Guilds = Switzerland Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:58:50 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > The key to co-opting the "Thadders" would be to convince them that a > closer union is in their best interests as well as those of Thyatis. The > obvious deal that Thyatis can offer is to give the Minrothad Guilds > economic control of a significant portion of their markets in return for > granting the Thyatians military control of their major seaports. But Minrothad doesn't need Thyatis. If they were to get that involved with Thyatis and its failing markets, they would be at risk of suffering a blow to their economy also. Kinda like the way the US is worried about Asian's markets. > No problem there. The key is to start with somebody who is so desperate > that they will accept help from anybody, no matter who they are. Have the > most recent Net Almanacs left any nation that desperate? I think this goes back to what I've said before. There just isn't a place in the Known World for a Thyatis that offers nothing but a military. What do we know about their military anyway? They've only been involved in one conflict (if you see the one with Alphatia as a long conflict) and lost it (more than once). There is a nation that is that desperate and it's Thyatis. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:11:53 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (SHORT) > > Don't forget Sind. I believe they would rather get rid of those Huleans. > That's true, and it *did* slip my mind. Hmpf. Stupid of me, since "liberating Sind" is the ultimate (near term) goal of a game I'm in 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:19:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) > > But Minrothad doesn't need Thyatis. If they were to get that involved > with Thyatis and its failing markets, they would be at risk of suffering > a blow to their economy also. Kinda like the way the US is worried > about Asian's markets. > Ahh, but here you make a mistake. See, Thyatis already represents Minrothad's biggest market (especially now that MetroAlph) is gone. A more accurate analogy might be: What do you think would happen to Japan if the US economy went into a deep dive? Bad news, eh? If the US economy entered something akin to the Great Depression, *now* what do you think things would be like for Japan? "Not so hot" is a kind assessment. With MetroAlph *poofing* away not too long ago, Min's economy must be hemoraging. They can go looking for other markets, but that only does so much for them. They need the Thyatian economy back on it's feet, and anything they can do to help that helps them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:16:05 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League In a message dated 98-07-22 18:01:13 EDT, Jamuga Khan wrote: << Yes, and why Germany didn't conquer Switzerland? It was better to keep Switzerland as a neutral country to sell the robbed gold. Right now they are getting trouble for this. So we can conclude: Minrothad Guilds = Switzerland >> Actually, another very good reason (and far more likely, to be frank), is the fact that the Swiss are known first for their banking, second for their military. As in an all-males-in-the-country military. I'm not sure exactly how it worked back in the '30's, but today every male Swiss MUST go into the military (I believe it is for an 18 to 24 month stint minimum) and then they MUST take their primary weapon - be it assault rife, machine gun, what have you - and a supply of ammunition back home with them. Combine this factor with the fact that Switzerland is all mountains and valleys, with most mountains being (pardon the pun) Swiss-cheesed full of holes wherein to dig in, most bridges quite likely mined or quite readily defendable, and you have what could well be the toughest nut to crack in the world... quite comperable to Mystara's Rockhome, in that regard... or, for that matter, an island such as Stronghold in the Minrothad Guilds... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Ethan said: >This opens up a lot of leeway to the Davania team. Anyone working on >Varellya? I want to know if they grok technomancy. > Varellya was sort of my area for the longest time - the Varellya timeline was the first real big post I made to the MML. As far as technomancy goes, they probably don't, primarily because I don't think the Citadel would have sold its wares to a nation embroiled in civil wars in its dying days - the devastation would have been horrendous. There are no more Varellyans living in eastern Davania, but there are survivors in four enclaves: 1. The town of Thalla in the Adakkian Sound region (these guys are isolationists, and have forgotten much of their culture). 2. The Kingdom of Androkia in southern Cestia (these guys are warlike, and live under an oppressive theocracy). 3. The Kingdom of Nastoreth (this place exists on the southern spur of the Immortals Arm, a magocracy whose wizard rulers probe the mysteries of the Strait of Izonda, which hides a dire secret...) 4. The Kingdom of Soldanya (a kingdom founded by a large exodus of Varellyans around BC 800, its sits largely alone on the southwestern coast of Davania - they'd love contact, and they'd also love to have weapons to give them an edge against the lizard man raiders around them) How about that? :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:44:46 EDT From: DuncanTKD@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spells what to do with em. So many spells have we. What can be done with all of these spells? Whether you use memorization or not in your game.....you still must figure out ways to use the spells you got. Here are some ways to use existing spells in different ways (all spells came from PH unless othere wise stated). Enlarge: cast this spell to block a door or passage with something or use its reverse to oppen doors by casting the spell on a locked door. Feather Fall: Try using this one on a battle field, or in a fight with giants. Simply cast the spell on the boulders they are going to through/shoot at you. Grease: "Ha ha ha ha. when I pull this lever you will all die." He cant pull the lever if he cant hold on to it. You might also get a charging opponent to go right into a pit if you play it right. Jump: So you need to get over that pit. OK. Taunt: Great for keeping that evil Orc from putting a killing blow on a downed comrad. Bind: Use this one as a practicle joke (shoe/boot laces). Does anyone else have any ideas for useing spells in clever ways? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:06:27 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Hey ther Mystaran's. I've been re-reading through the Princes Ark stuff in CoM recently and so my 'interest' in the oD&D AY2000/AC1000 era Savage Coast has been picking up. (That and the fact that I have long term goals to send my campaign over towards the Serpent peninsula, so planning an eventual jaunt into that area could be easily accomplished as well as interesting). In any case, I've a couple of questions I'd like to ask. First, I vaguely recall someone saying that they had picked up some maps of the Savage Coast area 'off the net'. Are these from the online TSR stuff or another source? (Just thought I'd check before I went marauding around the internet...) And what era of the Savage Coast are these maps for? Second, can anyone explain to me (briefly) what the difference is between the "Savage Baronies" and the "Savage Coast"? I've noticed the first title on a product in the local gaming store shelf and was wondering. Thanks, in advance, Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:22:56 +1000 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff > Hey ther Mystaran's. Hey thar Jenni > First, I vaguely recall someone saying that they had picked up some maps > of the Savage Coast area 'off the net'. Are these from the online TSR > stuff or another source? (Just thought I'd check before I went marauding > around the internet...) And what era of the Savage Coast are these maps for? The maps were there but as far as I can find with the new update TSR homepage all the fun stuff that was there is there no longer. You could try the old mpgn site. I just checked and mpgn is still up and running. I think the file you might want is TSR2524J.ZIP which is 4.2 MB file. The maps are those directly from the Dragon articles and thus cover the AC 1000 era. Only those from about Bellayne or so westwards are there. > Second, can anyone explain to me (briefly) what the difference is between > the "Savage Baronies" and the "Savage Coast"? I've noticed the first title > on a product in the local gaming store shelf and was wondering. The Savage Coast is the whole area from about Hule to Orc's Head. The Savage Baronies is those areas of Navarez, Torreon, Vilaverde, Gudalante, Cimmaron, Almarron and whoever else I may have forgotten in the little area. no .sig I'm at work - you should know my site though *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:30:18 +1000 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans > Varellya was sort of my area for the longest time - the Varellya timeline > was the first real big post I made to the MML. Hmm, I wonder where the Carnifex link will come in then. > 3. The Kingdom of Nastoreth (this place exists on the southern spur of the > Immortals Arm, a magocracy whose wizard rulers probe the mysteries of the > Strait of Izonda, which hides a dire secret...) Oh right, sill me :-} <--- knowing smile So you're going to detail this for the AI region, AC 1016? > 4. The Kingdom of Soldanya (a kingdom founded by a large exodus of > Varellyans around BC 800, its sits largely alone on the southwestern coast > of Davania - they'd love contact, and they'd also love to have weapons to > give them an edge against the lizard man raiders around them) Where roughly? Or even where exactly. no .sig I'm at work - you should know my site though *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:48:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Great Crater NPCs + I notice I missed Shawn's update. Oh, well. :) I'm not entirely done yet. Here's the lowdown on some of the more famous NPCs of the Great Crater (more to come), and a location on my map that got missed by me. :) Corran Keep- pop. ? South of the Great Crater, on the Darokin side of the border, stands the solitary Corran Keep. Long abandoned by any human occupants, there is nevertheless strange nocturnal activity around the fortification. The humanoids avoid this area, as they are frightened away by the structures eery phosphorescent glow in the evening. Saints and Scoundrels of the Great Crater Al-Nahmi, shaman of Thanatos and chief of Tombstone. (Th 14/Sh 9; Th 9Sh- S 15, I 10, W 16, D 9, Cn 17, Ch 13) Shortly after Thar led his legions out of the Broken Lands, in caverns far below, the thouls stirred. Driven by their shaman, Al-Nahmi, they roused themselves from their centuries of idleness and followed in the wake of the orc-king's legions. Though normally despised by other humanoids, the thouls were welcomed as comrades in arms against the hated Glantrians. Al-Nahmi led her people to the abandoned town of Lizzieni, where they remain to this day. There they prosper in the caverns and undead haunted hills of the former Principality of Caurenze. She is a follower of Thanatos, and seeks to spread his entropic ways among the surface world. She has few ties with any of the other humanoid leaders, save for the two goblin princes, Wart and Throng, who have made overtures of alliance with her recently. Broknag the Sly, Advisor to Prince Kol, cleric of Wogar. (Go 10/8; Go 10T/8Sh- see PWA 1012) Broknag wormed his way into Kol's graces by presenting the kobold with Ludwig von Hendriks, his current military advisor. Since then, the goblin has used his influence to garner arcane secrets for himself, notably by taking control of the late Prince Volospin Aendyr's ruined manor. He has also attempted (unsuccessfully thus far) to worm his way into various legitimate sorceror's guilds and organizations in Glantri. He hopes to utilize such magical knowledge to advance the cause of the humanoids of the Great Crater, or at least help put them on a more equal footing with the rest of Glantri. Broknag is strongly dedicated to the humanoids of the Great Crater and to Kol (in that order), and thus is greatly disturbed by rumors he has heard about the Black Eagle's discontent with the current state of affairs... Doth, King of Goblinia. (Go 15; Go ?F- see GAZ10) Doth was overjoyed at the death of his wife, Yazar, in 1010 AC- especially since it was the first assassination attempt to succeed against her bombastic majesty! He didn't have long to gloat, however, as his tribe fell to the military might of Kol's hordes shortly thereafter. Even the eventual capitulation to the kobold's rule by his hated rival Thar couldn't please Doth for long. Since then, the goblin king has brooded in his cavernous home, taking out his frustrations on his subjects and his orcish neighbors. His advisors resent him and feel he is responsible for their current plight, as the loss of Yazar's military genius was devastating to their war with the kobolds. Still fearful of their liege's rage, however, they simply content themselves to wait for the old goblin's impending death. Giovanni di Malapietra, 2nd Circle Earth Elementalist. (Wraith, HD 9**/9MU) Brother to Innocenti di Malapietra, Giovanni was slain during the events of the Great War. Like many of the inhabitants of the region impacted by the meteor, he arose from death, his malignant spirit returning in the form of a powerful wraith. Still endowed with his magical abilities, he quickly gathered an army of undead to his side, and attacked Manor Sirecchia, where his hated brother still lived, unaffected by the meteor. Though his army was destroyed- along with a number of his undead relatives enlisted to his cause-the attack was sufficient to drain much of Innocenti's strength and drive him further towards madness. The vengeful Giovanni would have rallied another strike, but for the misfortune of crossing paths with the thoul shamaness Al-Nahmi. Her clerical abilities enabled her to control the wraith, and he currently serves the thouls in Tombstone, often using his Earth Elementalist abilities to expand and modify their subterranean homes. He senses that Al-Nahmi is barely able to hold him in check, and constantly plots for the day when her control over him slips. That, and a desire to destroy Innocenti di Malapietra are all that drive this evil undead. Gorgath, the bargda ruler of New Threat. (16 HD Bargda- see Creature Catalog) Though larger and more ferocious than most of his kind, Gorgath shares his race's hatred of almost everything not bargda. He led his people down from their mountainous homes when the meteor impacted, determined that humans had caused the disaster. They took their revenge on the elvish viscounty of Nathrat, then joined in the raiding of Thar's humanoids. Since then, they have consolidated their control over their lowland homes, and brought giantish hordes in the area under their wing. Now they carry out a reign of terror over the hills of southern Glantri, upon both human and humanoid alike. Meanwhile, Gorgath hopes to include the ogrish races (and perhaps the trolls) in his dominion, and eventually carry out his schemes of revenge and destruction against the entire Glantrian populace. Innocenti di Malapietra, Viscount of Sirecchia, High Master of Earth Elementals, Former Prince of Caurenze and Viceroy of Ylourgne. (MU 17; H 13W- see GAZ3, PWA 1010-1012, G:KoM) Thought dead following the impact of the meteor in 1006 AC, the former Prince of Caurenze resurfaced years later, as he aided the sinister Dolores Hillsbury in a plot to assassinate Prince Jaggar's wife. Though his title of Viscount was restored to him, his influence was a mere fraction of what it once was. That, combined with hauntings Sirecchia Manor by his deceased relatives, has driven the already paranoid Innocenti into the depths of madness. Today, he rarely ventures forth from his home, even to participate in Parliamentary procedures. It is only a matter of time before he does something rash... Jaervosz Dustyboots, former Sheriff of Seashire. (Hf 8; Hf 8F/9T- see GAZ8, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac) Jaervosz Dustyboots, a longtime foe of the Black Eagle Baron, has come to the lands of the Great Crater in hopes of bringing von Hendriks to justice. Having abandoned his title of Sheriff, he acts without the legal jurisdiction of the Five Shires, but with his people's hopes and support nevertheless. He has recently taken up with Qenildor Erewan, with whom he has discovered a common, if not entirely identical, purpose. Both men see the Black Eagle as a key figure in the humanoids' organization, and are working together to achieve their goals. At the same time, the two are becoming fast friends, seeing qualities in one another that are very similar. Khorguul, chieftainess of Orcus Dominicus. (Or 12; Or 9F) Khorguul nurses a strong hatred towards her distant relative, Thar. He killed her father during his bid for rulership of Orcus Rex, back in the Orcwars of 975 AC. In the years since then, she has grown to a position of power in the tribe, plans for revenge everpresent in her mind. When Thar bowed down before Kol in 1010 AC, the much impressed Khorguul offered her assistance and that of her horde to the kobold. The two of them worked to gradually dominate the other hordes in the region, and Khorguul rose to become the chieftain of the entire (renamed) tribe of Orcus Dominicus. She is wholly loyal to Prince Kol, and between his kobolds and her orcs, the two have managed to keep the hordes of the Great Crater in some degree of control. She has heard of Thar's efforts to the far east, and keeps a watch for the day when he might return... Kol XIV, Prince of New Kolland, Viscount of Blackstone, Viceroy of the Great Crater, King of the tribes of South Monsterland, High Doge of Kol. (Ko 26/ Wo 5; Ko 7Wd- see GAZ10, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The ambitious Kol managed to attain his current status due to the influence of powerful allies, but the tenuous nature of those alliances are beginning to show. His chief ally, Dolores Hillsbury (aka the Night Dragon, Synn) has begun to lose her sway in the political arenas of Glantri, and his advisors- notably the Black Eagle- are starting to play out their own agendas... which may or may not involve the kobold ruler. Thus far, his charismatic presence and position with the Council of Princes has allowed him to keep hold of his power, but that may not be enough. Unlike his predecessor, King Thar, Kol doesn't have the dominating personality that can keep other humanoid leaders in line. Together with his friend General Zar (and later with the Black Eagle) Kol's charismatic wheedling combined with his allies' military might was enough to influence the humanoids. Without the Black Eagle's strength, Kol may find himself gobbled up by the hordes he rules. He maintains diplomatic ties with most of the humanoids of the Great Crater region, and despises those that refuse to acknowledge his authority. He recently hit upon the tactic of issuing bounties on the heads of his rivals- under the guise of legal 'hunting licenses' for adventurers. He is well aware of the Black Eagle's superiority complex, and is not blind to Ludwig's practice of hiring human officers to command the legion. Ludwig von Hendriks, the Black Eagle, Military Advisor to Prince Kol, Commander of the Legion. (F 16; 13F- see GAZ1, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The former Karameikan baron has been hiding out in the Great Crater since 1011 AC, when he was rescued from the Five Shires by Broknag the Sly. Since that time, he has used his keen military mind (he worked with numerous humanoid hordes during his reign as a Karameikan baron) and contacts to train and supply the humanoid hordes of the Great Crater. Though far from the most efficient fighting force, they have benefited greatly from his leadership- most notably the well disciplined (for humanoids) kobolds. His efforts have been helped by the aid of his lieutenants, most veterans of Thar's Legion. He chafes under the rule of Prince Kol, however, viewing the kobold and his humanoids as inferior beings. The loss of his barony in Karameikos, combined with his current state, has severely embittered the man; the fact that non-magic users cannot achieve nobility in Glantri has only strengthened this feeling. Following his efforts during the Glantri-Ethengar war, he has achieved a notoriety among the Glantrian populace, and a degree of hero worship. He has recently been approached by the Followers of the Claymore, an underground movement decrying the magocracy. What ends he hopes to achieve by an alliance with them is unclear, but with the Black Eagle's reputation for double-dealing and treachery, it can't be good. Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, Prince of Boldavia, Baron of Igorov, Viceroy of Tchernovodsk, High Master of Necromancy. (M 28 and Nosferatu; H 19W(n)- see GAZ3, PWA 1010- 1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The dread lord of Boldavia has taken an interest in the region of the Great Crater, though he has kept it hidden, using his usual subtlety. Ever since the events of the war, the region south of Glantri has been ripe with necromantic activity- an area that the nosferatu noble sees as his domain of control alone! For the moment, Morphail simply observes events in the area, not interfering. He views the undead-hungry thouls as a source of possible irritation for him, though a minor one. Mostly, he sees the area as a possible place for his expansionistic tendencies. More undead nobles under his control would help him consolidate his silent reign on Glantrian power... if only something could be done about all the clerics down there... Ohr'r, Constable of Ohr'r. (Bu 16; Bu ?F- see GAZ10) The aging Ohr'r has taken to his new roles as constable and guildmaster of the Ohr'r branch of the Fellowship of the Pouch as if born to them. He spends most of his time counting through his enormous profits, and leaving the delegation of leadership to his assistant, ?. His only real concern is why his good friend, Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels, refuses to return any of his messages (Jaggar was instrumental in gaining Ohr'r his position as leader of the tribe of Bugburbia). Qenildor Erewan, Baron of Celedyl. (E10;E 9F/8W- see GAZ3, G:KoM) Sire Qenildor Erewan is the newest member of the Glantrian nobility, having been awarded a barony in late 1015 AC. Located on the site of the former Camp Huledain, Qenildor named his barony after his long lost father, Celedrin. Ever since his father's disappearance during a raid into the Broken Lands, Qenildor has nursed a hatred for the humanoids. His feelings have grown ever stronger in recent years, as his people suffered the most under the humanoid raids of 1007 AC. After fighting them as a renegade for years, he has finally decided to try fighting them within the confines of Glantrian law as well, by using his baronial influence. Unusually impatient for an elf, he is attempting to take a longer term view of things. Doubtless his burgeoning friendship with the halfling Jaervosz Dustyboots is coloring his attitude. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:06:31 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Shawn, High Chapperal of Akh'All said: >> 3. The Kingdom of Nastoreth (this place exists on the southern spur of the >> Immortals Arm, a magocracy whose wizard rulers probe the mysteries of the >> Strait of Izonda, which hides a dire secret...) > >Oh right, sill me :-} <--- knowing smile > >So you're going to detail this for the AI region, AC 1016? > I guess that would be a good idea - do you have correspondents, Shawn, that I can use? Mine couldn't conceivably get over there. >> 4. The Kingdom of Soldanya (a kingdom founded by a large exodus of >> Varellyans around BC 800, its sits largely alone on the southwestern coast >> of Davania - they'd love contact, and they'd also love to have weapons to >> give them an edge against the lizard man raiders around them) > >Where roughly? Or even where exactly. > On my map of the Bay of Pelatan region, Soldanya is that medium-sized nation outlined with the red border, which has one neighbour, a smallish colony/trading post/nation north along the coast. It has two big cities of note, the rest is made up of scattered towns, forests, and grasslands. Oh, and lizard man raiders, can't forget those. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:44:10 +1000 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans > Shawn, High Chapperal of Akh'All said: Aww, shucks. > >> 3. The Kingdom of Nastoreth (this place exists on the southern spur of the > >> Immortals Arm, a magocracy whose wizard rulers probe the mysteries of the > >> Strait of Izonda, which hides a dire secret...) > > > >Oh right, sill me :-} <--- knowing smile > > > >So you're going to detail this for the AI region, AC 1016? > > > I guess that would be a good idea - do you have correspondents, Shawn, > that I can use? Mine couldn't conceivably get over there. Actually funny you should ask that. My correspondent, her name escapes me now (I've been sitting here trying to think about it Beni-?????) a female enduk, who has so far given a totally unbiased view of Nimmur, should well be able to describe Nasoreth for you. I'll mail you her decription, and full-name when I get home. > >> 4. The Kingdom of Soldanya (a kingdom founded by a large exodus of > >> Varellyans around BC 800, its sits largely alone on the southwestern coast > >> of Davania - they'd love contact, and they'd also love to have weapons to > >> give them an edge against the lizard man raiders around them) > > > >Where roughly? Or even where exactly. > > > On my map of the Bay of Pelatan region, Soldanya is that medium-sized > nation outlined with the red border, which has one neighbour, a smallish > colony/trading post/nation north along the coast. It has two big cities > of note, the rest is made up of scattered towns, forests, and grasslands. > Oh, and lizard man raiders, can't forget those. Fair enough, I hadn't placed anything in that area myself yet - I've been keeping away from your pre-enclosed areas. Does Soldanyah know about Nastroeth? Chances are I don't think that they should. They may know that some nagpa went off in that general direction but no more than that. Unless you have a good reason why. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:10:14 +1000 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Oops, sorry that was meant to got straight to Geoff, damn these Sun's! an obvious lack of a .sig *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:18:25 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Shawn, Anointed Seer of Y'hog, said: >Aww, shucks. Hey, when Akh'All smiles on you (we think He smiles - otherwise, what are all those mouths and pseudopods for?), everyone should smile on you, too. Otherwise they di-err, have bad things happen to them. ;-) >> I guess that would be a good idea - do you have correspondents, Shawn, >> that I can use? Mine couldn't conceivably get over there. > >Actually funny you should ask that. My correspondent, her name escapes me >now (I've been sitting here trying to think about it Beni-?????) a female >enduk, who has so far given a totally unbiased view of Nimmur, should well >be able to describe Nasoreth for you. I'll mail you her decription, and >full-name when I get home. Cool! >> On my map of the Bay of Pelatan region, Soldanya is that medium-sized >> nation outlined with the red border, which has one neighbour, a smallish >> colony/trading post/nation north along the coast. It has two big cities >> of note, the rest is made up of scattered towns, forests, and grasslands. >> Oh, and lizard man raiders, can't forget those. > >Fair enough, I hadn't placed anything in that area myself yet - I've been >keeping away from your pre-enclosed areas. Does Soldanyah know about >Nastroeth? Chances are I don't think that they should. They may know that >some nagpa went off in that general direction but no more than that. Unless >you have a good reason why. Actually, the inhabitants of Nastoreth and Soldanya are human, same with Thalla and Androkia. Since the curse that turned the Varellyans into Nagpas took effect after the fiend was released and the empire destroyed, those who fled earlier remained as they were. So former colonies, like Nastoreth and Androkia, and derivative nations (Soldanya) were unaffected. Soldanya, founded in BC 800-BC 700 (for example), was around for about 1,200 years or so when Varellya finally fell in AC 565. Mind you, they started from scratch, so even after that time they didn't have much of a nation. As to whether Soldanya should know about Nastoreth - I doubt it. They're a fairly isolated bunch, and they're afraid of the Far End Ocean (funny, all of their ocean-going vessels get sunk). Hope this clarifies all. :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #537 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 538 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - MMB and stuff [MYSTARA] - Re: Recopying Material from the MMB Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells what to do with em. Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff [MYSTARA] - Gareth 8 : Gareth = your suggestions Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff RE: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:00:36 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - MMB and stuff >>Well, eh eh *hysterical laughter*... It would really be easy, were it not for the fact that that damn thing SUCKS on my PC! It always crashes, so I have given up entering the MMB... Could u ask it for me... pleeeasee..?<< I share your feelings regarding the technology used for the MMB. There isn't a day I don't curse it (in both English and French, which is a bad sign usually!) I think you said earlier that I ignored your request to duplicate my posts on your site, right? Sorry. I must have missed it somehow. I wasn't ignoring you. My previous post about the MMB (provided this one doesn't reach you first) should answer your question. Sorry to hear you cannot go there. I guess you need a better PC then! Things to do on the MMB to save time and headaches. Put a check mark on those folders you're interested in reading about (Mystara, for example). Before mucking with setting options, open one of the other folders that has just a few posts -- there are plenty of nearly abandoned folders on the TSR Message Board. That will go a bit faster. You can return to Mystara later on. Settings: Look for the Options button at the bottom of the folder list. Choose in particular the following settings: Read Unread Only, and, List Selected Folders Only (I think). This won't help much the first time you go there, since we're currently running at about 500 active posts. It will take time to wade through all this stuff and get the MMB to refresh your screen as you go through (that's one of the suckiest features so far). Don't wait until you're done reading everything to start responding -- by then the old posts will be hard to find, especially if you're using the Read Unread Only mode. The "Search" feature does not work, naturally. Posts are automatically purged from the MMB after some time (a month, I think -- that's one of the many other sucky *features*). They are apparently NOT archived. The setting "Unthreaded Messages" allows screens to be refreshed faster, but it's not as convenient (use that only with the "Read ALL Messages" setting, especially if are looking for old messages). Hope this helps. Then again, it might crash on you, and trying to reach the MMb via AOL is as exciting as root canal. Trust me... Nuff said! Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:00:34 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Recopying Material from the MMB Since the question has been coming up in various places, here are my thoughts on this. As far as recopying material from other writers onto your web sites, in general I think it would be appropriate to first ask permission before proceeding. Speaking for myself, there are several other issues that I would like to bring up. 1. Support. Since my efforts on the MMB have been specifically to support activity on that site, I would ask those interested in my posts to first participate in the discussions on the MMB. I'm not asking for a total commitment since the MMB is a pain to deal with, but at least an honest and worthwhile presence there would be nice. 2. Closure. It would be best to wait until after a thread has seemed to have reached the end of its course before picking it up. I don't think it would be fair to those who do make the effort to support the MMB if current threads there would be picked up and restarted elsewhere at the same time. 3. I tend to keep working on material I post on the MMB for some time after a related thread has died out. If you're interested in a series of posts from me, and would rather have an updated version, please feel free to ask me. I may be able to give you a clean, formatted file. 4. Miscellaneous obvious things (I think) -- please put the name of the author, the date you recopied the material, and its source (MMB or wherever you got the material from). Don't modify the contents of the file, save for the purposes of layout and presentation I guess (if you feel the need to comment, add another file labelled as such). I hope nobody feels I'm lecturing them or talking down to them. That's not my intent here. I'm just stating what I think is appropriate as an author. Please ask questions if the above wasn't clear. Naturally -- nothing prevents you from ignoring the above and doing entirely as you please. I doubt there is an "official" policy at TSR/WotC regarding any of this, other than copyrights and such. But I think it would be unfortunate if people decided not to cooperate. Questions anyone? BTW -- the MMB cannot presently be reached unless you bookmarked the site. TSR is apparently making some changes to the site. I don't know how long this will last. If you're interested in checking out the MMB, try this URL: http://tsronline.wizards.com/mb/system/login.html Thanks a bunch Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:48:19 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) James Ruhland wrote: > > Ahh, but here you make a mistake. > See, Thyatis already represents Minrothad's biggest market (especially now > that MetroAlph) is gone. A more accurate analogy might be: > What do you think would happen to Japan if the US economy went into a deep > dive? Bad news, eh? If the US economy entered something akin to the Great > Depression, *now* what do you think things would be like for Japan? "Not so > hot" is a kind assessment. > With MetroAlph *poofing* away not too long ago, Min's economy must be > hemoraging. They can go looking for other markets, but that only does so > much for them. They need the Thyatian economy back on it's feet, and > anything they can do to help that helps them. Okay but remember he said that Minrothad would allow them to establish a military presence in the Guilds. So, how about this one. Thyatis=Russia. Would the world seek to help Russia build up its economy if it meant helping to build up its military? :::I just gotta win this::: ;> - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:08:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) > > Okay but remember he said that Minrothad would allow them to establish a > military presence in the Guilds. So, how about this one. > Thyatis=Russia. Would the world seek to help Russia build up its > economy if it meant helping to build up its military? > The world has done the same for China in recient years (just ask William Clinton). Also, significant "dual use" technology went to Russia via Europe, Japan, and the US during the Cold War. Also, folks *are* concerned (if less than they should be) about the state of Russia's economy, the theory being that if they get up and running the place will be more likely to stabilize in a benificial form, rather than having extreamists take over (think Wiemar Germany, also. . .which may be apt because look who's "waiting in the wings" to take over in Thyatis should things go. . . . . .) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:59:57 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spells what to do with em. >Does anyone else have any ideas for useing spells in clever ways? :). Best use of a spell Ive seen was the use of a Leomunds Secure Shelter as a trap. It was in Almarron, the PCs had just caught an assassin and had gone to the point where the assassin was to be paid. In the middle of a large forest clearing was a little cottage. They went in, and then musketeers started turning up. OK, thought the PCs, at least we have a defensible position - they cant shoot us in here! And then the cottage disappears. Volley fire present! Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:12:35 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Western Defense League >> It sort of reminds Switzerland during >> WWII... and they're still neutral. > >Yes, and why Germany didn't conquer Switzerland? They probably wouldnt have been able to (at least not quickly). Switzerland is situated in ideal defensive terrain, you would have a lot of difficulty getting panzers up there. Plus the Swiss army are highly trained and the whole military is geared up for defensive fighting and holding ground. Why bother getting involved in a potential meatgrinder? Minrothad is different. Minrothad is militarily weak - the oly defence they have (aside from diplomacy) are those reefs. And presumably that would be scant defence, as the Thyatians must know where they are (Minrothad is right on their doorstep, after all). I dont think diplomacy would necessarily help them either, as they are somewhat isolated from the rest of the KW. As to Darokin helping - this is a 16th century world. There is no global economy. If Minrothad folds it isnt going to significantly affect Darokin (apparently Darokin makes a lot of its money by exporting its rich agriculture). Minrothad doesnt actually produce anything itself - it ships goods from elsewhere. And I dont think the majority of people on the KW are going to miss Alphatian wines or Herathian silks too much. Darokin if anything would be eager to have their trading rival squashed. (They could start providing the Alphatian wines and Herathian silks!). Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:19:06 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff > Second, can anyone explain to me (briefly) what the difference is between >the "Savage Baronies" and the "Savage Coast"? I've noticed the first title >on a product in the local gaming store shelf and was wondering. The Savage Baronies are a part of the Savage Coast - the eastern end, in fact. The area is made up of lots of small petty Spanish colonial type baronies (or "banana republics", as my players call them...). The Savage Baronies are - Cimarron County Guadalante Almarron Saragon Narvaez Gargona Torreon Texeiras Vilaverde (and with the Net Almanac, El Grande Carrascal is a barony now, as well). Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:31:44 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans >Actually, the inhabitants of Nastoreth and Soldanya are human, same with >Thalla and Androkia. Since the curse that turned the Varellyans into >Nagpas took effect after the fiend was released and the empire destroyed, >those who fled earlier remained as they were. So former colonies, like >Nastoreth and Androkia, and derivative nations (Soldanya) were unaffected. Nut bunnies! I should really re-read _that_ issue of Princess Ark. >As to whether Soldanya should know about Nastoreth - I doubt it. They're >a fairly isolated bunch, and they're afraid of the Far End Ocean (funny, >all of their ocean-going vessels get sunk). Why is that? I was just gonna ask if the inhabitants of Soldanya would have contact with G+S but I think maybe an answer to this question might be better first. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:46:37 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Hi Jenni > First, I vaguely recall someone saying that they had picked up some maps >of the Savage Coast area 'off the net'. Are these from the online TSR >stuff or another source? (Just thought I'd check before I went marauding >around the internet...) And what era of the Savage Coast are these maps for? Yeah, all the old maps from Bruce Heard's articles in DRAGON which first introduced the Savage Coast are on TSR's site. They are one of the graphics files for the Orc's Head accessory (another good product--download it if you don't already have it). I think it's the first file, but I can't be sure because none of the three works. As far as I could tell, everything else is working, so maybe they'll be fixed soon. Anyway, the URL is http://www.tsr.com/ADND/Downloads.html and they are listed under Savage Coast. The maps are ca. 1000, although little has changed. They are all in the 8 mile-hex that was the OD&D standby for so long. The maps include Ator (gatormen), Shazak (lizardmen), Cay (caymen), Herath (aranea), Wallara (chameleon men), Jibarú (phanatons), Nimmur (manscorpions), and the Dark Jungle (vicious orcs and a cool dragon). There's also a hand-drawn map of the Arm of the Immortals (which is home to flying elves and winged minotaurs). The Orc's Head accessory itself details rules for lpaying all these races except for orcs. > Second, can anyone explain to me (briefly) what the difference is between >the "Savage Baronies" and the "Savage Coast"? I've noticed the first title >on a product in the local gaming store shelf and was wondering. A couple other people have done a good job of describing the area. As far as the product, it details the Baronies in more detail than did the Red Steel box, and it includes a full adventure set in and around Saragon. IIRC, all this is included in the Savage Coast Setting available on-line. The boxed set includes some artwork missing from the download, and it has a decent cd with "mood music," but it probably isn't wirth paying a whole lot for, considering that the other is free. On the other hand, it might be worth it just for the map of the entire Savage Coast. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:55:54 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > >> box *way* bigger than it needs to be (well, not *always*), which means I > >CoM was FAR too big for what was in it. 3 books, 2 maps and all those >airship cards would fit fine in a WotI-sized box. My vote goes with James here. I love the fact that I can keep all my CoM material in that box, along with X4, X5, and X6 (all of which are set in this area) and the neighboring Atruaghuin Gazetteer. That way if I need info on flying ships or that entire region of the world, I can simply open up the box, and there it all is. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:58:07 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad >Why not wage war with the Heldannics? If successful you get back at >Vanya and if your only a little less oppressive than the knights you`ll >be regarded as liberators rather than conquerors I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad karma to invade a nation that just helped prevent the complete collapse of your nation. If anything, Eusebius is indebted to the Knights. If he attacks them, no one will ever again be willing to come to Thyatis' aid if they need it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:14:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff > Second, can anyone explain to me (briefly) what the difference is between >the "Savage Baronies" and the "Savage Coast"? I've noticed the first title >on a product in the local gaming store shelf and was wondering. > Hey, Jenni. The Savage Baronies refers specifically to the Spanish/Portuguese-type places near Hule and Slagovich, like Saragon, Vilaverde, and Cimmaron. Once you head west of Cimmaron, you're no longer in the Savage Baronies. The Savage Coast includes everything from Slagovich to the Arm of the Immortals, including the Savage Baronies. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:04:35 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad >>Why not wage war with the Heldannics? If successful you get back at >>Vanya and if your only a little less oppressive than the knights you`ll >>be regarded as liberators rather than conquerors >I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad karma to invade a nation that just helped >prevent the complete collapse of your nation. If anything, Eusebius is >indebted to the Knights. If he attacks them, no one will ever again be >willing to come to Thyatis' aid if they need it. On the other hand, the US and USSR were allies during World War 2. I think the only reason that attacking the Knights is out is because of the fact that Thyatis is home to a lot of Hattians. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:02:46 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Thanks to everyone who replied to my earlier SC questions. I have two more: 1. Is the "Savage Baronies" set in AD&D format (like the Red Steel set)? 2. Could someone remind me which D&D Modules deal with the Master of Hule? Thanks :-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:57:03 CEST From: "Herve Musseau" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Gareth 8 : Gareth = your suggestions This is the last post in my series of "Who is Gareth?". It lists the suggestions that were made either on the MML or to me in private email, and there are a lot of them. Some were meant as jokes (but i'll consider them seriously as jokes sometimes infere good questions), some were serious business, some were not very different from one another. Anyway, that'll probably make quite a long post, but keep reading. And when you've finished, you can criticize/add ideas/voice your opinion now that you have the whole set of posts. 9. Gareth = uppity mortal who has found some way to remain hidden from Immortals for a time. Probably originally meant as a joke, this suggestion was was followed by various funny ideas by other MMLers. But first, it implied the following remark "It could be the first mortal who manages to gives another mortal clerical spells...". Indeed, the concept is interesting: Since Gareth seems to be no known Immortal, maybe it's actually a mortal (obviously a powerful one, or a very cunning one). However, how could the mortal give clerical spells? How could he communicate with his priests? One suggestion was that "maybe Gareth is a prank of some resourceful gnomes, maybe they've created a machine capable of granting spells to clerics". A more reasonable approach would be that some mortal has in his possession an artifact, probably made by some forgotten Immortal, or given by his patron, that allows to grant clerics their spells. We know from the rules in WotI that Immortals can (and do) make such artifacts. It is easily assumed that this artifact may also be imbued with the power to communicate with those priests; alternatively, simple mortal magic could be used to communicate telepathically or in the dreams of the clerics. Another artifact that may be tapped to produce such a result would be the NoS. Those who master the Radiance (either directly in Glantri, or indirectly for the SE shamans) can cast additional spells. Maybe someone did discover how to use it to grant other selected mortals clerical spells, and thus become as powerful as an Immortal. Although one immediately thinks to Rad, any Brother of the Radiance, or even a non-brother, may be tapping the NoS to that end, and not necessarily knowing where does the energy come from. Note that the NoS doesn't shut down on the DoD, unlike the above-mentioned gnome device, and thus could "grant" spells to clerics on that day. (See also Synn, later.) Along the same lines of the gnomish device, one could imagine a wizard inventing a powerful magic item that would give clerics spells, and thus allow the wizard to pass for an Immortal without having to get through the proper Path and thus bow to a greater Immortal. One such wizard could be Gargantua, if IYC like in Marco's, he's trying to get to a higher state of existence then immortality without becoming Immortal first. Alternatively, it could be an undead wizard, possibly a powerful lich (like Brannart, a Brother, though it's not really in character) or nosferatu who is not interested in giving up his form of immortality to get another one, but still wishes to become as powerful. Please note that the reason why a wizard would want to start a religion must be tailored to your campaign. Someone also mentioned a parallel between "Gareth is a mortal" and RW Jesus. There has actually been a discussion on that very subject on the MML, with many ideas sparking from it. Please refer to it. 10. Gareth = some "thing", not quite an Old One but maybe their spawn or some other vortex creature... Since we don't know much about Old One or the Vortex, it's hard to get any working plot in that direction. However, Sinbad is refered to as possibly being an Old One or one of their messengers. The plot involving Sinbad may be found in the Gareth = an Old One post, including notes if he's only a messenger. 11. Gareth = Sitara Rohini was drunk when she heard the "voice of Gareth" and Korotiku was so amused by the results that he's granting her spells to see how this story will end... This one was really funny. However, it actually is interesting too. First of all, it mentions the possible involvement of Korotiku, which is more detailed in another post (Gareth = a new Initiate, IIRC). Sitara being drunk and hearing voices can actually be a great plot and the truth IYC. This may seem like a joke in a world where Immortals do exist and manifest themselves, but in RW we don't get that many proofs of the existence of a God (trying not to offend anyone) and often simple voices, apparitions, or other miracles are taken as such and a whole religion may actually spawn from such events. Joan of Arc is a good RW example of how someone hearing voices can lead to important events (though not a new religion in that case). However, contrary to RW, on Mystara you have to actually be able to cast clerical spells to prove that there's an Immortal involved (whereas in RW we need only faith). So either some Immortal picked up the idea and started to give Sitara spells (and Korituku seems like a good choice), or Gareth's philosphy is indeed a philosophy as per the CPH and the clerics of Gareth receive their spells not from an immortal but from that philosophy (if you use this rule IYC). 12. Gareth = Synn This is a variant of #9. This could be used if Synn is a (the?) recurring villain IYC (just don't let her have more plots running than an actual Immortal can). Synn is a night dragon, which is a powerful creature, but that doesn't give her the powers of an Immortal. However, she certainly didn't come to Glantri for no reason; maybe she was drawn there because of the NoS, which now is an artifact of Entropy. It has never been mentioned before that she was experimenting with the NoS, but that doesn't mean she doesn't. Maybe she has finally discovered it and uses its power tocreate a new religion as described in #9, with obviously dark goals has bave been described in previous posts about Loki, Thanatos, Hel, and other Entropics. She may directly use the NoS, or use its power without knowing where it comes from. She may also have successfully used the NoS and be the first Immortal spawned by the NoS since it started to feed on Entropy (Rad is not yet back at the time to control its use). In that case, the Synn we all know is just a mortal ID, and Synn had other plots running outside Glantri at an Immortal level, in that case in Sind. In that case, the scenario for Entropic Initiate may be used with Synn. 13. Gareth = some powerful exalted being, like the one who controlled the whole planet of cristalline dragons in the Dragonlord series, the Overlord. The Overlord indeed has great power and many followers in the Dragonlord trilogy. Whether he has the power to grant clerical spells like an Immortal is unknown though, but one can easily assume he does. The Overlord is defeated in the trilogy, but he may just have been dispersed and not killed, like an Immortal banished to his homeplane. Today he is returning, having formed a new body, and with a new, more subtle plot to take over Mystara. Alternatively, it might be another creature like the Overlord. It also depends on what exactly the Overlord IYC. Someone said it was a Kryst, and I never heard of such a creature before so can't comment further. I've already seen poeple believing that he actually was an Immortal, Alphaks to be precise, who had been following the progress of Flaems from world to world, and decided to act now that they had landed on the same world that the Alphatians (hey, cool, they brought me to the place where all the factions of Alphatians live, I can crush them all at once). If Overlord = Alphaks, it's highly unlikely that Gareth = Overlord. A Dreaden is another possible exalted creature that we don't know much about but that may be powerful enough. It should be very campaign-specific, though, but there are people out there that have very detailed histories involving the Draeden. 14. Gareth = the Forgotten One This is based on an idea by Rick LaRue you can find at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/thoughts.html There was an Immortal long ago that tried to harness the power of the five spheres at once. He failed at the attempt, and was thought to have been destroyed in the process. Later Immortals only harnessed the power of one sphere only ever since. However, maybe he was not destroyed. Maybe he just went dormant for millenia until his body and mind could bear the power of all five spheres. Or maybe he didn't fail at all, but indeed got that much power but disappeared from the Immortal pantheon (either because he didn't want other Immortals to follow his path bafore he mastered his new powers, or because he wasn't interested in petty Immortals anymore). Or he attained a higher state of existence, like the Old Ones. Anyway, he finally reappeared, and decided to show mortals and immortals alike the new way, the path he had followed, the path of the 5 spheres. His teachings and his philosophy differ so much from the other Immortals' because he has a very different view on the spheres of power, not considering them as opposing each other. He mentioned his return from the Vortex either because that was the best analogy he could think of to put the Immortals on the proper path, or because he actually crossed the Vortex in his attempt to master the 5 spheres, and came back. Note that you can add to the complexity by having him actually harness not 5, but 6 spheres of power. When he first tried to do it, there were only 5 known spheres. The equation was incomplete, and that's why he failed and became dormant. However, when the NoS was turned from Energy to Entropy, showing the existence of the sphere of Principium, he could finally try to add it to his portfolio and complete the process. 15. Gareth = the lifeforce of the NoS having gained sentience. This is actually very close to Gareth = Rad. Most scenarios used for Rad can be used with the NoS directly. You have the added complexity that Rad is still out there after MoA, and that the NoS can be used to achieve Immortality. How does Rad relate to the new sentient NoS and can the NoS bestow Immortality as it wishes/deny Immortality to Brothers of the Radiance become important questions in that case.x I guess that's all. I've detailed all the various possibilities as to who Gareth could be and what it implies that I could think of or that were suggested to me. Feel free to use whatever best suits your campaign, and of course, comments welcome! _____________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/ Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:56:58 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff replied to my earlier SC questions. I have two more: > >1. Is the "Savage Baronies" set in AD&D format (like the Red Steel set)? Well, it has AD+D written on the front cover. But IIRC there are very few game mechanics in that book - its just descriptions of the countries ("just" - thats the good bit!) so it doesnt matter. You aren't going to have to convert it or anything - none of the characters have game statistics or anything rules related. BTW - Ive made Sir John a 20th level paladin IMC, but what does everyone else reckon? (What does Wyatt Earp and Sturm Brightblade have in common?) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:31:17 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:02:46 -0700 "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" writes: >2. Could someone remind me which D&D Modules deal with the Master of >Hule? X4, X5, X10 PS: I can't believe that the Hitpointe bought and sold X10 AND Gaz5 while I was away on a trip :(. If anyone has spare copies of these... :) Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:47:40 -0700 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > 2. Could someone remind me which D&D Modules deal with the Master of > Hule? X4 and X5 both talk about him; X4 mostly deals with rumors, his allies and servants, and some magic items. X5 has character stats and lots of solid information. I'm not sure about X10 (never seen it), but I suspect it talks about him too. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:48:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >Well, it has AD+D written on the front cover. But IIRC there are very few >game mechanics in that book - its just descriptions of the countries >("just" - thats the good bit!) so it doesnt matter. You aren't going to >have to convert it or anything - none of the characters have game statistics >or anything rules related. > The Savage Baronies boxed set does have game mechanics in it; all the characters described are AD&D. There is some stuff that only makes sense if you also have Red Steel (which I don't). >BTW - Ive made Sir John a 20th level paladin IMC, but what does everyone >else reckon? > That might be bit high; I'd suggest he's around 12th level. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #538 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 539 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Egg of Coot (was:- SaveMystara!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Recopying Material from the MMB Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:04:42 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >>Well, it has AD+D written on the front cover. But IIRC there are very few >>game mechanics in that book - its just descriptions of the countries >>("just" - thats the good bit!) so it doesnt matter. You aren't going to >>have to convert it or anything - none of the characters have game statistics >>or anything rules related. >> >The Savage Baronies boxed set does have game mechanics in it; all the >characters described are AD&D. There is some stuff that only makes sense if >you also have Red Steel (which I don't). It does have rules in it? *he checks* Well, not really. It mentions (briefly) things like the Time of Loss and Change (well, hardly a problem), proficiencies used in duelling (a couple of lines) and the names of kits (well, I think you can work out what a Swashbuckler is without using the kit :). Can't say I noticed any AD+D characters being described either (no levels, stats - it does have kits, but I consider kits to be more descriptive than anything else...) Wow! All you D+Ders must have a lower "rules threshold" than AD+Ders like me... :) Cheerz ROB (I like the Savage Baronies even if no one else does... *sniff* ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:49:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > Varellyans around BC 800, its sits largely alone on the southwestern coast > of Davania - they'd love contact, and they'd also love to have weapons to > give them an edge against the lizard man raiders around them) Wow. That's even before Zodiak was born. I think it'd be safe to say that the Citadel doesn't know much about this place unless Serraine has been there. Max IV - Techo Doc about 1/2 done! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:57 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) James Ruhland wrote: > > Also, folks *are* concerned (if less than they should be) about the state > of Russia's economy, the theory being that if they get up and running the > place will be more likely to stabilize in a benificial form, rather than > having extreamists take over (think Wiemar Germany, also. . .which may be > apt because look who's "waiting in the wings" to take over in Thyatis > should things go. . . . . .) (This is in answer to several thread on this) I think a lot of the Known World would see the fall of Thyatis as a good thing. Not really out of hate for it but because it would allow a new superpower to rise and I doubt there's a nation that doesn't think it should be them. Karameikos seems to be the one that would suffer most from a fall of Thyatis but they do have their neighbor Darokin to fall back on if that market disappears. So that would lessen their hurt. Minrothad at present doesn't have the need of a strong Thyatis. They would probably turn to Ierendi for support should Thyatis make any overt moves in their direction. One island nation endangered to Thyatis should bring the other in on their side. If Ierendi or Minrothad were to join with the WDL, Thyatis could never hope to take them. A rise in power of the Hittians would signal all the Known World that trouble is brewing and be the catalyst of such a treaty. What they will be weighting in help to Thyatis is how benefical it is to them not Thyatis. If a shattered Thyatis is seen as good (even in short term) they will probably not make moves to stop it maybe even hasten it by cutting back trade that isn't profitable. Its almost the same as the US and USSR. The US wanted the government of the USSR to fall and when it did, they promised aid. But many people don't see a need to help an enemy even with the knowledge of Germany after WWI. Thyatis is probably not going to transform overnight. There will be little war generals staking out claims all over it as it shatters. The Hittians will be one. In the end, it will Thyatis itself that will have to deal with them. The Known World will have to deal with the problems until that stage though. I can see the Known World helping Thyatian economy but I'd expect much resistance if this was seen to benefit Thyatis military. Eusebius's move to build up his military along with his economy should have people wondering why since their enemy is gone. The thought that a strong Thyatian military without an Alphatian one to offset it is not a good sign. The worst thing Thyatis could do is invade anyone. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/) galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:32:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) > > I think a lot of the Known World would see the fall of Thyatis as a good > thing. Not really out of hate for it but because it would allow a new > superpower to rise and I doubt there's a nation that doesn't think it > should be them. > Yes, but just because a "new Europe" (the EU) sees itself as becoming the dominant power on the continent, that doesn't mean that they aren't concerned about troubles in Russia and want them to get worse. > and USSR. The US wanted the government of the USSR to fall and when it > did, they promised aid. But many people don't see a need to help an > enemy even with the knowledge of Germany after WWI. Thyatis is probably > not going to transform overnight. There will be little war generals > staking out claims all over it as it shatters. The Hittians will be > one. > Which is why folks don't nessisarily want to encourage any more troubles in Thyatis which might have the effect of making things much worse for *everyone*. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:14:37 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) At 16.58 22/07/98 -0500, Galwylin wrote: >But Minrothad doesn't need Thyatis. If they were to get that involved >with Thyatis and its failing markets, they would be at risk of suffering >a blow to their economy also. Kinda like the way the US is worried >about Asian's markets. What about the Guilds "buying" Thyatis, like WotC did with TSR :-) Thyatis will offer Minrothad profitable trade agreements and special services (i.e. escorts in dangerous seas) in exchange for loans. Aegos Pit could also be part of the agreement. In the long time this situation can cause friction between Minrothad and Thyatis and thus we could have Operation Hydra. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:35:07 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) > > What about the Guilds "buying" Thyatis, like WotC did with TSR :-) > > In the long time this situation can cause friction between Minrothad and > Thyatis and thus we could have Operation Hydra. > Are you suggesting that their is friction between TSR and our beloved CCG co? (only a *hint* of sarcasm in the word "beloved", since actually things have gone rather well since WotC assumed control). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:06:48 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Origins Varellyans Ethan said: >Wow. That's even before Zodiak was born. I think it'd be safe to say that >the Citadel doesn't know much about this place unless Serraine has been >there. > That'd be a good idea. Some Nastorethians might be present at the Citadel (maybe ten or so) - since they're a magocracy. Picture a magic-rich Liechtenstein . Some Androkians might also be there - wanderers or outcasts who wanted to leave. The Citadel isn't too far from them. Likewise, some inteliigent lizard men might be present too. Serraine hasn't been to Soldanya (yet), unless they have and they're not telling anyone. How would you feel if you uncovered a fairly old nation surrounded by enemies? Either you'd want to help (and if you were mercantile you'd want to be the sole source of help), or you'd want to stay away, fearful of having those numerous enemies exact reprisals on you. Ah well, Mystarans will learn of Soldanya soon enough...heh heh heh. :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:49:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >It does have rules in it? *he checks* > Not exactly rules, per se. I'm talking descriptions of characters and such. Look in the adventure book, and the character cards that come with it. I don't know what most of those kits are, since I don't have Red Steel. >Wow! All you D+Ders must have a lower "rules threshold" than AD+Ders like >me... :) > I don't have a preference; for my home-grown campaign, I play AD&D. But Mystara is too awesome to leave behind, and it works best with D&D rules. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:10:12 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Egg of Coot (was:- SaveMystara!) On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > IIRC, the "Egg of Coot" was a place, not an artifact (unless they changed > things). The main (and very outlandish) villians of the campaign were based > out of the Egg (EGG?) If I recall, from discussions on the list, the Egg has at least become a villain lately. I remember a description posted in here: "something Gigeresque, swampy..evil" I found that fascinating. What if the Egg survived? Or one of its children..err..eggs..is still around? It could become of major player in modern mystara..what do you think? Hĺvard (Slowly recovering from a crowded mailbox..) *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:10:50 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Why Minrothad? In a message dated 98-07-21 17:08:17 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: << At 02.03 21/07/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >for a resolution to operation hydra, the thadders are given gosh darn good >peace terms. Ok, just one more question. Will Thyatians control what the merchants bring in? Otherwise merchants could easily smuggle weapons (maybe Red Steel ones), magical items, adventurers from far away lands... >> i am leaning for thyatis to have a very "hands off approach" to the guilds. trade would be centered on pre-invasion goods and markets. as with any occupying force, the thyatians will focus on maintaining civil order. catching smugglers will be difficult. those caught will face the severest penalty. however, weapons/enchanted items smuggling would be an option. such smuggling would make for some good adventure hooks. and that is what we all want. setting material has to have adventure hooks or else it becomes a novel. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:19:22 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara All this talk of Thyatis falling and trade being disrupted and stuff: How much trade DOES go on. This is a medieval setting so how much trade does go on. I would think that very little goes to the 'common man'. If we take Karamikos next to Thyatis, if Thyatis falls and no more trade goes on I don't think that the common people (at least 90%) will notice. They will just hear that the kingdom next door has been destroyed, and see many refugees, and they will hear their ruler (the local baron) complain that he can't get good food/clothing/whatever. On the other hand, in the cities it will have a much bigger impact. But once again depending on how much trade goes on. So what are the opinions of everyone on this mailing list: A) 'What the kingdom next door has been destroyed? Last year? Well imagine that.' B) Small disruption, but after a year things settle into a new trade routes. C) Big disruption, but after 5 years " " " " " . D) '"AAAGH! Where Will we sell the 50000 skunk furs from Threashold? And all that other stuff.' Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 02:34:26 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara > > How much trade DOES go on. > This is a medieval setting so how much trade does go on. > A fairly good question. IMO, it's more an "early renaissance" setting (without the firearms, unless you're on the SC) than a strictly midieval setting. Plus, from the Gazeteers, one would think that quite a lot of trade goes on. Of course, these are written with adventurers in mind (the "elite", guys who care about trade). As for the opinion of the "common man", it hardly matters if you're talking about a midieval setting. No one cared what the serfs thought (of course, most KW nations don't have serfs, they have pesants, but the pay's the same, so who cares?) > On the other hand, in the cities it will have a much bigger impact. But > once again depending on how much trade goes on. > Well, mainly we were discussing impact of things on nations known to be "trade based" in any case (most noitably Minrothad, the maritime one). Disapearance of Alph had to be a blow to them. WotI war would have been initially a boon to them, but as it dragged on and commanded $$$ that might otherwise have gone to luxuries [which generally have higher marginal profits than cutlery and pot helms], things would have subsided somewhat. But loosing a 5,000,000+ person market is not good news. Add that to Thy's suffering (other "big" market in the region is Darokin, but they have their own traders, thank you very much: their is a reason I haven't mentioned impact on Darokinian merchantile trade, and it's because IMO it wouldn't suffer too much, yet, based on events in Thy & MetroAlph: they trade more by land, with near realms. Trade with Kara. will be booming, but actually, their *own* trade must also be suffering: fewer people in Glantri (plus the place is IMO less "merchant friendly" these days), Aegemor (colony) isn't probably as import/export friendly as Alfheim was, Rockhome has gone insular, and let's not even *mention* trade with Ylaruam: sure, Eshram al-Azrad has Ylari roots, but to the Kin faction he's just some foreigner, and one that abandoned their "paradise" for life in a heathen land, to boot!) Your average Antalian probably couldn't care less, but Darokin & Minrothad *have* to care, because (per the Gazeteers) their livelyhoods depend on trade. > B) Small disruption, but after a year things settle into a new trade > routes. > assuming new markets can replace the ones, but markets as big as MetroAlph & Thyatis aren't so easily replaced and, as I outlined, a number of other realms are less "trade friendly" than they had been. IMO, though, trade is a good topic that deserves it's own thread. A couple of the SC Baronies are maritime trade-oriented, and Kastelios (in Davania) is becoming a trading city. Thyatis seems to *want* to become trade oriented (if you read some of the hints in the 1015 Gaz, I.E. especially dude's screeding under the "Minrothad" description). Perhaps trade is bustling? I guess it depends on how you look at it: is the merchantile glass half full, or half empty. And how much does it matter? But who cares what Humbert the Peon thinks, anyhow? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:49:31 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri I know that it was only tuesday when I send my ramblings about Glantri, but I wonder if there is anyone who like to say something about them. There is two main points in that post that I especially want some comments about. 1. Alexander Glantri and when he died. 2. The of enfeoffment for Nouvelle Averoigne and Klantyre. These questions are essential for my plans to my writing something about each individual principality and their ruling house. t:Harri M{ki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:19:50 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > If it's a villian, then IMO Osterhaus should take over. He's a much better >villian anyhow, and if it becomes the Hattian Empire then at least the >pretence that Thyatis is just one (flawed) nation in a world of many >(flawed) nations, few who are strictly speaking "evil", will be over. > Plus, I view this somewhat as the "Zhentil Keep"/"Red Wizards" effect: a >"good villian" who is constantly thwarted, suffers from Orbital Bombardment >(and other disasters), and otherwise your "snidely whiplash" inneffectual >"villian" is more of a laughingstock than something to be feared. > Actually what I meant was Thyatis should be the `man in the grey hat` from spaghetti westerns. A `Good` villain because they use whatever means necessary to achieve what has to be done. Let`s be honest who else but Thincol would have had the willpower to save his empire at the cost of his pride? BTW another name for a `good` villian is anti-hero but that has a slightly different coonotation to it. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:27:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? > > > Actually what I meant was Thyatis should be the `man in the grey hat` > from spaghetti westerns. A `Good` villain because they use whatever > means necessary to achieve what has to be done. > The Empire With No Name, you mean? 8-)~ Ok, put that way its much more understandable (what you meant, I mean). Next thing you know hinterlanderers will be calling Eusebius "Blondie" and he'll be holding forth on "There are two kinds of people in this world. . . ." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:12:01 +0200 From: "Jamug Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM) > having extreamists take over (think Wiemar Germany, also. . .which may be It might have been a typo, but the name was "Weimar" and the German state you are referring to is the "Weimarer Republik" from 1918 to 1933. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:08:55 +0200 From: "Jamug Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Recopying Material from the MMB > 1. Support. Since my efforts on the MMB have been specifically to support > activity on that site, I would ask those interested in my posts to first > participate in the discussions on the MMB. I'm not asking for a total > commitment since the MMB is a pain to deal with, but at least an honest and > worthwhile presence there would be nice. Besides being clumsy, the TSR Message Boards are simply too expensive. AFAIK city calls in the USA are paid with the monthly fee, and it doesn't matter how often or how long you make such a call. In Germany this is not the case: Every minute I'm logged in at the server of my ISP I'm paying money for the telephone, so don't expect a "worthwhile presence" by me. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:07:50 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? >Actually what I meant was Thyatis should be the `man in the grey hat` >from spaghetti westerns. A `Good` villain because they use whatever >means necessary to achieve what has to be done. Let`s be honest who else >but Thincol would have had the willpower to save his empire at the cost >of his pride? BTW another name for a `good` villian is anti-hero but >that has a slightly different coonotation to it. <;-P Oh yes, Im in agreeance here. It has been voiced around here that the "coolest" alignment in an NPC is Lawful Evil, for just the reasons you have depicted above... Thincol is the archetypal Lawful Evil alignment, IMO (if you think about it, LE is an alignment really at odds with itself - a rare alignment, i think). Cheerz ROB (Thincol and Eriadna ruled! (Literally)) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #539 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, July 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 540 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - Cestia & Oceania Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara] Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM TO POOR SPELLING) Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB and stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed [MYSTARA] - TSR Website Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Cestia & Oceania [MYSTARA] - Mystara OOP (was Re: TSR Website) [MYSTARA] - Silence of the List (was Re: What's Needed) [MYSTARA] - Gallery of Mystara NPC's Re: [MYSTARA] - Silence of the List (was Re: What's Needed) Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jul 98 11:27:59 PDT From: Cecil Cosman Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara] James Ruhland wrote: <> Loosing? where are they going? Just because they wouldn't be considered a unified nation as such in this situation doesn't mean those people arn't going to up and leave the country to the trees and the grass here. They are still going to live there in some form of community. I mean it could be led by various generals that have jockeyed for control or whatnot but those people are still going to be able to buy stuff. I guess the only main thing traders would have to contend with is knowing what taxes they would have to pay in what territory and being subject to random taxation. That might discourage trade, but not a loss of consumers. C.Cosman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:23:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Cestia & Oceania These two good-sized islands were among the first "stopovers" of the Princess Ark, but not much detail was given (the early articles weren't as extensive as later ones would become). Has anyone done anything to detail/flesh out these islands? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:49:20 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara] > > Loosing? where are they going? > "loosing" in the sense that Alphatia is *gone* as far as Minrothad is concerned, and "loosing" in the sense that an impoverished population buys few trade goods (which is why your average peasant or serf couldn't care less about trade: the reason he doesn't by trade goods isn't indifference, it's lack of fungible wealth). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:25:22 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (MEDIUM TO POOR SPELLING) > > > having extreamists take over (think Wiemar Germany, also. . .which may be > > It might have been a typo, but the name was "Weimar" and the German state > I don't think it was a typo, I think it was just my poor spelling defect making itself felt (c.f. "extreamists" I think that's spelled wrong, too. Extremists. Hmmmmn. . . nope, that doesn't look right, either. But then how would I know?) If people haven't noticed my congenitally poor spelling before, I thank you for your kind oversight. 8-)~ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:37:54 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara At 02.34 24/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Trade with Kara. will be booming, but actually, >their *own* trade must also be suffering: fewer people in Glantri (plus the >place is IMO less "merchant friendly" these days), And it's also hard to get there, as I pointed out in the economic section of the Net Almanac. Before WotI the main route to Glantri was through the Broken Lands, but now, with Atzantetotl's shadow elves in the City of Aengmor, that area is even more dangerous than before. The long way through Sind looks not much safer, with Huleans and Freedom Fighters. Probably a new road through the Great Crater is needed, but even there there're 'noids. > Aegemor (colony) isn't >probably as import/export friendly as Alfheim was, Rockhome has gone >insular, and let's not even *mention* trade with Ylaruam: With the death of Moglai Khan Ethengar is also a not-so-friendly market. Now, all of this makes me think that these days you can reach Heldann and the Northern Reaches only by ship, air or magic. Isn't that true? > IMO, though, trade is a good topic that deserves it's own thread. A couple >of the SC Baronies are maritime trade-oriented, and Kastelios (in Davania) >is becoming a trading city. Thyatis seems to *want* to become trade >oriented (if you read some of the hints in the 1015 Gaz, I.E. especially >dude's screeding under the "Minrothad" description). Perhaps trade is >bustling? Sea trade with Northern Davania is certainly bustling, but caravan trade in the KW is not going very well, at least in the north. BTW: if someone has ideas or contribution for the economic section of the Net-Almanac, please mail me. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:25:50 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB and stuff In a message dated 98-07-22 23:47:13 EDT, Ambreville@aol.com writes: > My previous post about the MMB (provided this one doesn't reach > you first) should answer your question. Sorry to hear you cannot go there. I > guess you need a better PC then! After struggling through the Mystara message boards a couple of times, I must ask -- what sort of PC would navigate those boards well? I recently got a new computer but not a new ISP, so I really doubt that I have improved access to those boards. But is there some combination of software/ISP for which that board actually works well? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:55:29 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad In a message dated 98-07-23 06:11:49 EDT, Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes: > I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad karma to invade a nation that just helped > prevent the complete collapse of your nation. If anything, Eusebius is > indebted to the Knights. If he attacks them, no one will ever again be > willing to come to Thyatis' aid if they need it. Okay, please refresh my memory on this one -- when did the Heldanners prevent the complete collapse of Thyatis and how did they do it? I do not recall reading about them doing much of anything to help Thyatis, despite the fact that they were allied in WotI. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:30:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Harri M{ki wrote: > I know that it was only tuesday when I send my ramblings about Glantri, > but I wonder if there is anyone who like to say something about them. > There is two main points in that post that I especially want some comments > about. In my "Complete Glantri Timeline" (available on Shawn Stanley's page), I compiled all canonical timeline entries from all the various TSR products that deal with Glantri (even a few contradictory ones). I've also got a few non-canonical things from my own campaign, primarily dealing with things mentioned in CM8:The Endless Stair (aruably not strictly canon), and the Viscounty of Blofeld, that I'd be glad to share. The timeline's a good place to start looking, though. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:24:03 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - >I was exited to pick up the box for one reason, because it dealt with the >Serpent peninsula. But then I read somewhere that The Ark went further, >almost to the Arm of the Immortals. I have all the cool maps (From >someone's site) But I'd love to have the accomanying articles. > >Having a map of the ship was real useful. :P I use miniatures in my >campaigns alla time. > I`m one of the lucky ones with all the VotPA issues. If we can get WotC/ Bruce`s permission I`ll put up all that is asked for. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 04:05:26 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - What's Needed >CoM was FAR too big for what was in it. 3 books, 2 maps and all those >airship cards would fit fine in a WotI-sized box. > However then I would have nowhere to put the figures that I use with the deckplans without them becoming lost! BTW what happened to the list this week I got no postings for most of it, or is it our network ballsing up yet again? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:25:59 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - TSR Website Now that TSR has all but abandoned the Classic D&D line, perhaps those of us on this list who play Basic should do something about it. My thought is that we should all e-mail TSR and get them to post the Classic/Basic adventures and Gazeteers on their website (TSR already has some old stuff for free on their site, such as "Secret of Bone Hill"). Thoughts? - - BC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:28:17 EDT From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Fabrizio - Thanks for the help with my Karameikan elves question. Both schools of thought agree that the clans Chossum and Red Arrow are now in Karameikos, so they're in. I agree that it makes sense that clan Erendyl would accompany their king to Wendar, so having clan Feadil in Karameikos sounds good to me. Now I just need to hash out which clan settled where within Karameikos.... My inclinations are to let the warrior/hunters of clan Red Arrow have the woods east of the Kelvin moors and play with the goblinoids of the Dymrak Forest, give the Estate of Radlebb to the Feadils, and have the somewhat shady Chossum traders take the Estate of Achelos and learn to deal with the shady folk dwelling in the Barony of Halag -- it's a nice little fit! Thanks again for your help -- I appreciate it immensely. Demmero *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:12:48 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Cestia & Oceania James Ruhland said: > > These two good-sized islands were among the first "stopovers" of the >Princess Ark, but not much detail was given (the early articles weren't as >extensive as later ones would become). > Has anyone done anything to detail/flesh out these islands? As a matter of fact, I'm working on them. They are in my area of interest for the Davania Team, and you may wish to pay attention to future issues of the Net Almanac. I'm writing a more comprehensive article/mini-Gaz on the four Cestian kingdoms right now, to accompany that map I drew. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:15:49 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara OOP (was Re: TSR Website) At 07:25 AM 7/25/98 -0400, bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: >Now that TSR has all but abandoned the Classic D&D line, perhaps those of >us on this list who play Basic should do something about it. My thought is >that we should all e-mail TSR and get them to post the Classic/Basic >adventures and Gazeteers on their website (TSR already has some old stuff >for free on their site, such as "Secret of Bone Hill"). Thoughts? That /would/ be nice, wouldn't it? Having some OOP Mystara stuff available at the TSR site. I've already taken the liberty of extracting several "older" AD&D OOP items off of their web site and plunking it into my own campain, but it would be cool to get my hands on some of those modules that just can't be found. Writing email to TSR is always a start. We can also hope that the TSR rep on the list (Hi Harold!) will see that we're interested and pass the request along. Note that I, for one, would be happy to try scanning in one or two of the few OOP modules I do have access to if that's all it would take to get things started. :-) Jenni - -=> strawberyJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:29:43 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Silence of the List (was Re: What's Needed) At 04:05 AM 7/25/98 PDT, paul dooley wrote: > >BTW what happened to the list this >week I got no postings for most of it, or is it our network ballsing up >yet again? I think it's just been a slow week -- this list comes and goes in waves. I suspect that the main cause right now is probably summer vacation with people going places far away from their computer and email access. Its also coming up on 'exam time' for many summer courses at several colleges and universities (at least in Canada). I don't mind the slow periods -- gives me a chance to catch up on other things besides reading the MML ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:22:35 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Gallery of Mystara NPC's Hey MMLers :-) A while ago I was faced with a little dilemma -- I needed some Mystara based NPC's and was running out of ideas. So I first began thinking that, perhaps a few members of the list would be willing to help me out. Essentially, I was interested in getting a few more ideas for NPC's for a particular aspect of my campain at the time, but as I thought about it more I realzied that my idea could lead to bigger things. In particular, I decided that if I could start collecting oD&D/Mystara based NPC's I could have the beginning of a Gallery of NPCs that DM's in my position could reference. Since that time, I've collected a few interesting NPCS off of the MML, the MMB and from a few individuals who have emailed me directly. I have enough now that I am starting to consider the next step -- setting up a web page for them. However, to really make this resource useful, I need MORE! In particular, I'm looking for all sorts of Mystara NPC's, with some being very Mystara specific and specialized (like a Magic User from Alphatia, a Shadow Elf or a Darokinian Merchant), and some being generated fo oD&D but much more vague and generalized (i.e., A generic sort of inn-keeper, a street-urchin who is a good source of "underground" information, etc.). The info I'm looking for is: name, age (approximate), level/class and/or profession, stats, background and general personality. Other useful items would be any equipment of note (magic, valuables, unusual, etc.), levels of weapon mastery (if any), and general skills. In any case, providing just enough information to make the NPC interesting, but leaving a hook here and there to help a DM work them into their own campaign, would be ideal. So if you have an NPC you'd like to share which is either: (a) Specific to Mystara in some way (either oD&D or AD&D format is fine) (b) Generic but preferably designed for oD&D please feel free to forward them to me directly (strawberry@jamm.com) or send them here and I'll grab them. In the meantime, I'll start thinking about how to set up the resource web page. :-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:58:02 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Silence of the List (was Re: What's Needed) > I don't mind the slow periods -- gives me a chance to catch up on other >things besides reading the MML ;-) What else is there? stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:03:04 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >2. Could someone remind me which D&D Modules deal with the Master of Hule? > Thanks :-) >Jenni X4 Master of the Desert Nomads and X5 Temple of ??? Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #540 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, July 26 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 541 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:40:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff > > > X4 Master of the Desert Nomads and > X5 Temple of ??? > X5 The Temple of Death and X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield (the Master's "big invasion", which also updates him to a more appropriate level of power, though he looks kinda like ol' Khomenei in the picture). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:07:41 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara >Probably a new road through the Great Crater is needed, but even there >there're 'noids. > They could be instructed by the Princes to let the caravans through (not without collecting taxes, of course). >Now, all of this makes me think that these days you can reach Heldann and >the Northern Reaches only by ship, air or magic. Isn't that true? > They can be reached through Rockhome or Wendar. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:28:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > >Probably a new road through the Great Crater is needed, but even there > >there're 'noids. > > > They could be instructed by the Princes to let the caravans through (not > without collecting taxes, of course). We've talked about a path through the southern portion of Glantri, between the Great Crater and the Broken Lands, via Fort Fletcher and the Great Wall. Now that there is an elven Barony there (see 1015 Almanac), this is a workable idea, and one that will be very beneficial to Glantri and Darokin. There is the matter of a certain giantish/bargda complex to be taken care of, but it is the single most viable route currently. > >Now, all of this makes me think that these days you can reach Heldann and > >the Northern Reaches only by ship, air or magic. Isn't that true? > > > They can be reached through Rockhome or Wendar. Not really through Rockhom, not currently anyway. But you can reach them via Ylaruam, now that the situation there is a bit more stable. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:48:52 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara > > Not really through Rockhom, not currently anyway. But you can reach them via > Ylaruam, now that the situation there is a bit more stable. > Foreign merchant caravans wandering through Kin-held Ylaruam. Hmmmn. . . .Anyone need a little archery practice? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:49:49 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Trade in Mystara James Ruhland said: > IMO, though, trade is a good topic that deserves it's own thread. A couple >of the SC Baronies are maritime trade-oriented, and Kastelios (in Davania) >is becoming a trading city. Yep! My description of Kastelios for the 1015 Almanac sets the stage for future expansions in the area trade-wise. Kastelios has always been a prominent trading city locally due to its location and the prowess of its sailors - they are the among the only ones who can sail across the Serpent Straits to Yavdlom safely, and along the treacherous northern coasts of Davania (thousands of sandbars, coral reefs, localized storms, etc.). For places such as Garganin, Ilioloosti, and Kalavronti, Kastelios is the middleman - its ships ply the seas to get goods to and from these other city-states. In upcoming years, count on the Kastelians becoming more bold and going farther afield, bringing their rare spices, herbs, fruits, and crafts to markets that have not known them... Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:46:34 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri In a message dated 98-07-25 03:37:01 EDT, you write: << In my "Complete Glantri Timeline" (available on Shawn Stanley's page), I compiled all canonical timeline entries from all the various TSR products that deal with Glantri (even a few contradictory ones). I've also got a few non-canonical things from my own campaign, primarily dealing with things mentioned in CM8:The Endless Stair (aruably not strictly canon), and the Viscounty of Blofeld, that I'd be glad to share. The timeline's a good place to start looking, though. >> Question for you, did you decide on dates for the events from the Dragonlord Trilogy and include them in the timeline? - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:42:18 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance? In a message dated 7/24/98 6:16:40 PM, you wrote: << (Thincol and Eriadna ruled! (Literally))>> Lighting up a cigar: Esubius:"An Empire's got to know it's limitations. . . " *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:30:01 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THYATIS (LONG) In a message dated 98-07-23 16:43:28 EDT, you write: << >But Minrothad doesn't need Thyatis. If they were to get that involved >with Thyatis and its failing markets, they would be at risk of suffering >a blow to their economy also. Kinda like the way the US is worried >about Asian's markets. What about the Guilds "buying" Thyatis, like WotC did with TSR :-) Thyatis will offer Minrothad profitable trade agreements and special services (i.e. escorts in dangerous seas) in exchange for loans. Aegos Pit could also be part of the agreement. In the long time this situation can cause friction between Minrothad and Thyatis and thus we could have Operation Hydra. >> i actually had something like this in the events leading up to Op.Hydra. the economic ruin thyatis suffered after the war allowed minrothad a mercantile advantage. it could buy thyatian products and natural resources cheap to sell elsewhere. while the thadders could ask their own price in thyatis for minrothad goods. added to that was the notion that every gold piece that minrothad traders collected from trade elsewhere could be a gold piece in the thyatian treasury. imo the thyatian traders cannot do business at the same level as the thadders. nothing to do with skill, more like resources. the thadders hypothetically have more capital at their disposal than thyatian traders. this gives them a definite edge in any trade war with thyatian merchants. so basically, minrothad becomes a trade adversary of thyatis. you could add to the tension by having thadder merchants invest heavily in war weakened thyatian businesses, essentially taking them over. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:08:39 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad >Okay, please refresh my memory on this one -- when did the Heldanners >prevent the complete collapse of Thyatis and how did they do it? I do not >recall reading about them doing much of anything to help Thyatis, despite >the fact that they were allied in WotI. A month after Thincol's death, VonKlagendorf sent some of his top-level clerics to fight the mummy-rot and famine (PWA3, p. 183). No, it wasn't a world-shattering event, but the famine was really tearing Thyatis apart, and it was the first sign of foreign support that Eusebius received after taking the crown. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:10:51 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >The Savage Baronies boxed set does have game mechanics in it; all the >characters described are AD&D. There is some stuff that only makes sense if >you also have Red Steel (which I don't). Go to http://www.tsr.com/ADND/Downloads.html Download the Savage Coast accessory. Then you will have all the rules. Go NOW! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:13:23 -0700 From: "Patrick Sullivan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >information. I'm not sure about X10 (never seen it), but I suspect it talks >about him too. X10 has info on the Master and his encampment (although it places him in Sayr Ulan). This module works with only minor tinkering in WotI, and it makes a great adventure. (Sorry Jenni--IIRC you're not running WotI.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:24:42 EDT From: DrklngMuse@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff In a message dated 7/22/98 6:46:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time, shawn@leme.anu.edu.au writes: > The maps were there but as far as I can find with the new update TSR > homepage all the fun stuff that was there is there no longer. I found them on the new site last night. Where they where or how I got to them is another story. So be brave and enter the labyrinth they are there somewhere. Ryan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:36:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 Magesmiley@AOL.COM wrote: > Question for you, did you decide on dates for the events from the Dragonlord > Trilogy and include them in the timeline? Yeah- at least the first two of the series (never got the third one...). There is a mention or two early on in the first book that places the date exactly (at 490), and the second mentions it is five years later than the first. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #541 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, July 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 542 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - X10 to WotI [MYSTARA] - Alphatia vs Lighthouse Society. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia vs Lighthouse Society. Re: [MYSTARA] - X10 to WotI Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:44:11 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - X10 to WotI I've always seen WotI a complete rewrite of X10. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 98 21:30:44 PDT From: Cecil Cosman Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia vs Lighthouse Society. How do you all think the Lighthouse society feels about this arival of a new imense floating continent in the skies of the Hollow World? Or any of the nations for that matter. In the past, I would imagine, that the introduction of a new race would only affect the people that are their new neighbors, but with this floating continent, everyone would notice it just showing up no? I ask about the Lighthouse members, because they have the most knowledge of the Hollow World. I know that somewhere it says that the Alphatians memories where altered so that the outside world was forgotten about, but it didn't work on everyone. Do you think that the same was done for all HW inhabitants? I only ask because I'm currently working on a Lighthouse Gaz and I'm interested to see what you all think would happen between this secretive society and the magical nation of Alphatia. Esp. since some of you have mentioned that Alphatia might be taken up a protector like role in the HW. C.Cosman ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:29:23 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia vs Lighthouse Society. > with this floating continent, everyone would notice it just showing up no? I > ask about the Lighthouse members, because they have the most knowledge of the > Hollow World. > IIRC the 1015 Almanac has the Lighthouse folks contacting MetroAlph, and eventually inviting some Alphs to join their efforts. Hazy on the details, though. > I know that somewhere it says that the Alphatians memories where altered so > that the outside world was forgotten about, but it didn't work on everyone. Do > you think that the same was done for all HW inhabitants? > N.B. that the Immortals only altered the memories of most Alphatians: thouse of "name level" (9th) or higher were left with all memories intact. IIRC, the latest almanac has some stuff on this, too. IMO, the Immortals would have also altered the memories of the HW inhabitants at the same time, to conform with the new celestial realities. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:38:47 -0700 From: "James D. Skee" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - X10 to WotI - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >I've always seen WotI a complete rewrite of X10. I agree with this statement as well; my first look at X10 was about 6 months before I looked at WotI; I bought X10 as well as X4 and X5 at the same time as well as some other OOP mystara stuff a few years ago, mostly to see why all the GAZ series suggested that X10 be bumped up 200 years. Then WotI came out, and all the sudden it seemed like all the warnings about not having X10 in the "current" timeframe were thrown out the window, for whatever reasons Alphatia was viewed as "unbalanced" and tossed out as well along with the whole idea of the Master threatening the Known World. Either that, or TSR decided to just have lots of fun to create a sort of tabula rasa, much like using the disasters in SimCity... who knows. At least this time, the only thing that happened from the nuclear holocost was wiping out a whole continent, and the whole planet didnt go under the ice like it did with the Rain of Fire. All I know is if I ever get around to running a "big giant years and years forever after" campaign, Ill probably ignore most of WotI, especially moving Alphatia to the hollow world and wiping them out. I like having a big giant blob like Alphatia too much :) - - -- James D. Skee - spwalker@gte.net PGP Public Key available upon request - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNbwutIMTxxTYKt0CEQKQXQCgn7/XkQjEtC88JaIxkUNmYBNNgmMAnR0j b6qn5sqw9qU+qn/JRWPbHd1X =NPIt - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:59:23 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >1. Is the "Savage Baronies" set in AD&D format (like the Red Steel set)? > Yes but there`s not much to actually convert and it`s a good read >2. Could someone remind me which D&D Modules deal with the Master of Hule? > X4, X5,X10 are the classic desert nomad stuff can`t remember if he shows up elsewhere in canon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:03:46 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Stuff >PS: I can't believe that the Hitpointe bought and sold X10 AND Gaz5 >while I was away on a trip :(. If anyone has spare copies of these... :) I`ve got a badly abused X10 that I rescued some time ago, It`s go no map,or counters and is missing the last page of warmachine statistics. However if you want it it`s yours for the cost of postage ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:14:32 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My post about Glantri >I know that it was only tuesday when I send my ramblings about Glantri, >but I wonder if there is anyone who like to say something about them. I would probably open my big mouth, but your posting is apparently one of those that have mysteriously dissappeared from my mail. Please repost it so I can have a look <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:28:52 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad >Okay, please refresh my memory on this one -- when did the Heldanners >prevent the complete collapse of Thyatis and how did they do it? I do not >recall reading about them doing much of anything to help Thyatis, despite >the fact that they were allied in WotI. > And IIRC it was the HK on the orders of Vanya who broke off the treaties that there were between them both. I still think if it`s got to be war this is the best option. It mnight take time to organise but Thyatis could help the Khanate get a new Golden Kahn via diplomacy for a multi pronged assault into the freeholds. Along with the remains of Norwald and any of the `horned helmet` brigade who`d like to ravage the coasts at the same time. BTW is there any details of the Warbird artifact to be had? A group of PCs want to put a stop to those warbirds in a permanent way. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:37:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Renaissance via Minrothad > BTW is there any details of the Warbird artifact to be >had? A group of PCs want to put a stop to those warbirds in a permanent >way. Bruce Heard is writing up the details of them at the moment on the TSR Mystara Message Board. However I think it's broke again, or maybe it's just me that can't get to it....sigh... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:43:35 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 09.28 25/07/98 EDT, Demmero@aol.com wrote: > Now I just need to hash out which clan settled where within >Karameikos.... My inclinations are to let the warrior/hunters of clan Red >Arrow have the woods east of the Kelvin moors and play with the goblinoids of >the Dymrak Forest, give the Estate of Radlebb to the Feadils, and have the >somewhat shady Chossum traders take the Estate of Achelos and learn to deal >with the shady folk dwelling in the Barony of Halag -- it's a nice little fit! More help. PWA2, page 198-9: "Stefan Awards Dominions (...) An elf clan disossesed when the Shadow Elves conquered Alfheim receives a stretch of the Radlebb Woods east of Koriszegy Keep. Other Alfheim elves receive the Achelos Woods and the Riverfork Woods on either side of the Cruth River". Joshuan Almanac, page 233: "Tiernan Chossum of the House of Radlebb" So my guess is that clan Chossum took the Estate of Radlebb. Again from PWA2, page 234: "Alfheim Avengers Scheme (...) Young Alfheim elves in the new elven dominion of Achelos begin calling themselves the Alfheim Avengers." Joshuan Almanac, page 230-1: "Shadow Elves: The Worst is Yet to Come" by Dyvyr Red Arrow. Joshuan fears that Dyvyr may have joined the Alfheim Avengers. Thus a possible division of dominions could be: Radlebb to clan Chossum Achelos to clan Red Arrow Riverfork to clan Feadil This is just my guess and only the Radlebb/Chossum is somehow supported by canon stuff. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:14:17 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves >Avengers. Thus a possible division of dominions could be: >Radlebb to clan Chossum >Achelos to clan Red Arrow >Riverfork to clan Feadil > >This is just my guess and only the Radlebb/Chossum is somehow supported by >canon stuff. > BTW can all the Trees of Life be replanted in these areas? IIRC therte was a limit of 50 miles between them minimum. What about thosewhich had already been planted by the `native ` elves? Also this does pose aproblem for all those elves who recently immigrated from Thyatis as well doesn`t it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:09:33 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR Mischa wrote: >DM asked: > NEW PRIEST SPELLS > Guardian of the Dead > > Does this imply that the Jennite practice those kind of rituals that allow > the creation of topis (for I don't think these creatures simply appear in > mid air once the spell is triggered..)? If so, then does this also mean that > in every burial mound other corpses are buried beside the "owner" of the > tomb, and it is these corpses who are turned into topis and spectres or what? <> I don't think Tarastia would waste so much power by creating guardian undead every time one of her followers is buried: this is something THEY must do by themselves. Also, as you said, the Spell of Preservation doesn't allow instant teleportation, even though an Immortal's power supercedes the physical rules in this case. IMHO, the Jennites usually bury somebody else inside the mound together with the "owner", and from the number of the "companions" one can judge the position held by that dead during his life (ex: a normal hunter might have one guardian companion only, while a respected chieftain might have five or more..). Anyway, you could ask where do these guardian corpses come from.. So do I.. ;) Actually, since the jennites don't take slaves (no prisoners, IIRC..) these dead should be either from the dead enemies or other jennites. I think it could be both: the dead enemies might be treated with special powders and ointments and or imbalmed and stored inside the village awaiting for some jennites to die and be buried with them. You also said some topis can be found as well in the mounds, so this implies the jennites must know the technique used to create such "monsters". Finally, there might also be the rule that the elderly people follow the dead in the tomb according to some rules (after all, the Jennites have no respect for those who cannot be self sufficient, and this might be seen as the ultimate service to the community: protecting the dead as guardian dead). Just some more thoughts.. > NEW SPECIALTY MAGE > The Tatooist > Do they have spellbooks to learn from or do they meditate like priests? How > do they learn and cast their spells (both mages' and tattoos' spells)? <> I do see a problem in this, and basically it's the flavour of the setting. I don't think the tattooists go around with spellbooks in their pouches. I think they should be able to learn spells either by reading them in acient scrolls or monolyths or by being taught by other tattooists (or even by researching by themselves as the normal MU can do). However, the tattooists have a different way of storing spells and drawing their powers: they don't use a spellbook, or better, their body IS their own spellbook. Once they learn a new spell, they capture its essence in a tattoo and tattoos it on their own body! Each tattoo can be cast maximum 3 times a day (obviously respecting the max number of spells one can cast) and to rememorize them they simply need meditating like the priests, recapturing the lost essence of their tattoos inside their body (one hour of meditation after 8 hrs of sleep, as per normal rules). Ex: Jamail can cast 3 first lev, 3 second lev, 1 third lev spells, so this means he can cast three times Magic Missile (1st levl) spell or twice Magic Missile and once Shield, etc. If he casts one spell more than three times, after being cast for the fourth time it simply disappears from the body of the tattooist and he must go searching for it again. Okay, that's all for today! DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:05:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Given how much time travel PCs end up doing sometimes (Blackmoor series, Dynast quests come to mind) what have other DMs done with time-traveling NPCs? Heroes from the past/future coming to interfere with the current world of the PCs? Perhaps the PCs are opposing an empire and need to be stopped by the Dynast as part of their Immortality quest? Could throw some twists and turns to the expectations and plans of the PCs.. Oh well, just wondering if people have done anything with NPC time travellers in Mystara and if so, what? Twins catcher Junior Ortiz on whether it bothered him that Rickey Henderson set the stolen base record on a throw of his: "No, he's stolen lots of bases on good catchers, too" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:33:58 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again At 12.05 27/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Given how much time travel PCs end up doing sometimes (Blackmoor series, >Dynast quests come to mind) what have other DMs done with time-traveling >NPCs? Heroes from the past/future coming to interfere with the current >world of the PCs? To solve WotI I used a chronomancer. My party discovered Kelter Zerben as soon as the exited the HW, in AC 1006, and they got to the temple of Balthac for the showdown. However, Hel was observing them and placed false clues referring to a secret "weapon" she was hiding somewhere in the Dwarfgate Mountains. Lady Lilith wrote these false info in her private diary before escaping from the party, and Hel sent them some dream visions of the place as well... The result was that they head for this location without informing Rheddrian, and they got trapped inside a temporal spire created by Hel, where they began fighting against a simple drolem. Obviously they hadn't understood they were trapped, until they tried to leave the cave after finding out there was nothing inside.. and they couldn't... Back in real time: a young man came to the wizard of the party who did not participate in that expedition (he was in his dominion trying to solve a difficult situation) and announced himself as his distant cousin (he knew he had one, since this was a PC he had just designed and thought I was going to have him change PC). This guy brought the wizard to the cave where the party was trapped and told him what had happened, then managed to break Hel's spell and to free the party... the only problem was that three years had passed for it! (AC 1009 now). They hailed Benekander and then headed for Balthac's Cairn again, where Benny had dispatched another group of adventurers who were trying to discover what happened to them (the second party with which I DM). From this point on the adventure is the same as in WotI. However, at the end it came out that the young guy was none others than the son of one of the PCs, coming from the future to correct the temporal anomaly created by Hel which was risking to change Temporal Prime. After telling the truth to his father only, he entered a magical portal where another guy was waiting for him and disappeared... but not before his father (the PC) recognized the other guy: the party wizard's son... eh eh... I plan having the final adventure of my old party a BIG Time travel adventure as well, trying to save the Multiverse and all known and unknown dimensions from Thanatos's folly.... But this is not yet the right time to talk about it... DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:39:36 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite HWR At 12.11 27/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >> I don't think Tarastia would waste so much power by creating guardian >> undead every time one of her followers is buried > >This is a 5th level spell. Considering how few clerics would actually >possess it and then cast it, I think she'd be willing to exert the effort. For this same reason, I ask you: why should she do this? Why should she protect the tombs of her followers? I could understand protecting the followers alive, but the dead ones? You could change the whole thing and make it a complex priestly ritual instead of a spell: the Jennites have this burial custom and they perform it freely (much like mummification), either for every dead or only for the most important ones (the second sounds better IMHO). >Hmm, nice idea but part of what I liked about them was that one >tattoist could guess at the powers of another by just looking at them (of >course, they could have fake images that resemble the magical ones to >counter this). How about the tattoos exist in their memory and need >meditation to be restored, but can then be removed by a feeblemind spell? I'd use their skin instead of their memory, to differentiate them from normal MU and to introduce a new element in tone with their "profession"... DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:42:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again >Given how much time travel PCs end up doing sometimes (Blackmoor series, >Dynast quests come to mind) what have other DMs done with time-traveling >NPCs? Heroes from the past/future coming to interfere with the current >world of the PCs? Perhaps the PCs are opposing an empire and need to be >stopped by the Dynast as part of their Immortality quest? Could throw >some twists and turns to the expectations and plans of the PCs.. Oh yes. I have done a few of these things... For a start - the Gate spell in AD+D functions slightly different from D+D - AD+D version "gates" in a powerful extraplanar creature (so, in AD+D a solar or a planetar or something). Using this spell on Mystara would presumably gate in an Exalted minion of an Immortal. As a priest IMC could cast this, he wanted to know who he could gate - (he was a Heldannic Knight) - so I said he could gate any "failed Immortals" who were gifted with Immortal status by Vanya for almost making it. (i.e. heroes from the past). Though the gate spell was never actually used, in the end, the concepts of having Zendrolion I as an Exalted (or the guy who conquered the Heldannic Territories, or someone from the Cult of Matera from Milenia) it offered - possibilities, as Spock said. I altered the oard/Aelos adventure (I forget the name) to be instead set on Mystara (I didn't really like the idea of setting it on another world) - the only event I can clearly remember is that I had the Isle of Sorcerors as Calitha Starbrows tower, before she reached Immortality (Calitha herself was there, hypnotised by the oards, and the PCs had to rescue her. I though this good stuff, because previously Calitha had helped the party out quite a bit, so the PCs didnt want to find out what would happen if she never made it to Immortality...) Ive also got a group of Alphatian chronomancers who survived the Rad/Rafiel purge thanks to their devotion to Ixion trying to prevent the destruction of Alphatia during WotI. They turn up every so often (but the PCs dont know their true identity, of course). Given my campaign is currently 1005 AC, these guys are from the future. Speaking of chronomancers, I've got an adaptor chronomancer going through history trying to document all the major events (a sort of Mystaran version of Astinus, if you will). Being an adaptor he can fit in pretty well anywhere. I've never actually had a past Dynast turn up, but I am oh so tempted to have a previous Emperor of Thyatis turn up (just to persuade Thincol to sue for peace right at the end). My PCs are involved in a sort of "damage limitation" campaign - they can't actually stop the War of Wrath, but they can prevent lots of deaths from occurring. IMC the War of Wrath is a horrific meatgrinder aka World War 1, so theres a lot a gang of heroes can do... or past Dynasts... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:44:28 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again >To solve WotI I used a chronomancer. My party discovered Kelter Zerben as >soon as the exited the HW, in AC 1006, and they got to the temple of >Balthac for the showdown. However, Hel was observing them and placed false >clues referring to a secret "weapon" she was hiding somewhere in the >Dwarfgate Mountains. Lady Lilith wrote these false info in her private >diary before escaping from the party, and Hel sent them some dream visions >of the place as well... The result was that they head for this location >without informing Rheddrian, and they got trapped inside a temporal spire >created by Hel, where they began fighting against a simple drolem. >Obviously they hadn't understood they were trapped, until they tried to >leave the cave after finding out there was nothing inside.. and they >couldn't... > >Back in real time: a young man came to the wizard of the party who did not >participate in that expedition (he was in his dominion trying to solve a >difficult situation) and announced himself as his distant cousin (he knew >he had one, since this was a PC he had just designed and thought I was >going to have him change PC). This guy brought the wizard to the cave where >the party was trapped and told him what had happened, then managed to break >Hel's spell and to free the party... the only problem was that three years >had passed for it! (AC 1009 now). They hailed Benekander and then headed >for Balthac's Cairn again, where Benny had dispatched another group of >adventurers who were trying to discover what happened to them (the second >party with which I DM). From this point on the adventure is the same as in >WotI. > >However, at the end it came out that the young guy was none others than the >son of one of the PCs, coming from the future to correct the temporal >anomaly created by Hel which was risking to change Temporal Prime. After >telling the truth to his father only, he entered a magical portal where >another guy was waiting for him and disappeared... but not before his >father (the PC) recognized the other guy: the party wizard's son... eh eh... > >I plan having the final adventure of my old party a BIG Time travel >adventure as well, trying to save the Multiverse and all known and unknown >dimensions from Thanatos's folly.... >But this is not yet the right time to talk about it... > >DM Neat. I love it! Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again IMC I have a Blackmoorian wizard (named Mareth) running about trying to rebuild the ancient power of his fallen realm. He didn't come from the past per se; his personal artifact (which works sort of like a magic jar - a converted portable nuclear generator) has sustained him since the GRoF. He's secretly in league with the Master of Hule, thinking to use Hosadus as a dupe to spread chaos throughout the world - making it more ripe for conquest. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:10:24 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves >Joshuan Almanac, page 233: "Tiernan Chossum of the House of Radlebb" >So my guess is that clan Chossum took the Estate of Radlebb. > A question: what happened to Carlisan Chossum, the shadow elf spy? Is he still in Aengmor? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:39:43 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > >Joshuan Almanac, page 233: "Tiernan Chossum of the House of Radlebb" > >So my guess is that clan Chossum took the Estate of Radlebb. > A question: what happened to Carlisan Chossum, the shadow elf spy? Is he > still in Aengmor? Either that or he is in the City of the Stars. Is he loyal to the Queen? Maybe he is on another mission now. Maybe he is Mystaras James Bond? Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:56:17 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves > > > A question: what happened to Carlisan Chossum, the shadow elf spy? Is he > still in Aengmor? > IMO, the best thing to have done with him would be to have him stay under cover, and flee with the rest of the Alfheim Elves. Then he could hook up with irredentist groups/"freedom fighers" as a vocal opponent of the "wicked Shadow Elves who stole our country". From such a possition he'd be able to feed the SEs/Aengmor information regarding the activities of these "terrorists" and "potential terrorists" from the inside, which is always an advantage. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:19:26 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 06.14 27/07/98 PDT, paul dooley wrote: >> >BTW can all the Trees of Life be replanted in these areas? IIRC therte >was a limit of 50 miles between them minimum. True. But do all those elves have a Tree of Life or were they abandoned in Alfheim? In our Timeline of Alfheim Invasion me and Herve supposed that a couple of those ToL were left in Alfheim, while the others were brought to safety in Darokin. The problem is that both in GAZ5 and CM7 there's no easy way to move a ToL. You can cut a branch and plant it elsewhere, but in this way you'll just have a daughter ToL and when the mother ToL dies so does the daughter. So this is not a practical way to save the ToL, because if the shadow elves destroy the original ToL in Aengmor/Alfheim, then you'll lose the daughter ones too. IIRC CM7 or GAZ5 state that uprooting and moving a ToL is very dangerous for the ToL itself, so in our Timeline we had the treekeepers research a ceremony to allow them to move the ToL without harming them. >What about thosewhich had >already been planted by the `native ` elves? Also this does pose >aproblem for all those elves who recently immigrated from Thyatis as >well doesn`t it? Not all clans have a ToL. Callari do have one and the Thyatians Vyalia have one too IIRC, but the Karameikan Vyalia don't. BTW: does the 50 miles limit apply also to daughter trees or just to mother ones? - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #542 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, July 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 543 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:51:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 14.56 27/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >IMO, the best thing to have done with him would be to have him stay under >cover, and flee with the rest of the Alfheim Elves. Then he could hook up >with irredentist groups/"freedom fighers" as a vocal opponent of the >"wicked Shadow Elves who stole our country". > From such a possition he'd be able to feed the SEs/Aengmor information >regarding the activities of these "terrorists" and "potential terrorists" >from the inside, which is always an advantage. This is more or less what I plan to do with him in the Net-Almanac, with one little twist: in the Timeline of Alfheim Invasion that I wrote with Herve, I had Carlisan replace the former Clanmaster of clan Chossum, so that now he's the clanmaster of Clan Chossum and thus the "leader" of the Estate of Radlebb. In 1015 Net-Almanac I didn't mention Carlisan, because I was uncertain between having him being uncovered or having him continue to stay under cover. At last we decided to remove Gilfronden, the other master-spy and keep Carlisan alive and spying. Anyway don't worry, in 1016 there'll be some events with Carlisan and the Alfheim Avengers. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:01:23 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > But do all those elves have a Tree of Life or were they abandoned in Alfheim? > In our Timeline of Alfheim Invasion me and Herve supposed that a couple of > those ToL were left in Alfheim, while the others were brought to safety in > Darokin. > The problem is that both in GAZ5 and CM7 there's no easy way to move a ToL. > You can cut a branch and plant it elsewhere, but in this way you'll just > have a daughter ToL and when the mother ToL dies so does the daughter. So > this is not a practical way to save the ToL, because if the shadow elves > destroy the original ToL in Aengmor/Alfheim, then you'll lose the daughter > ones too. > IIRC CM7 or GAZ5 state that uprooting and moving a ToL is very dangerous > for the ToL itself, so in our Timeline we had the treekeepers research a > ceremony to allow them to move the ToL without harming them. Sounds reasonable. Another option would be Ilsundal intervening. He had to do _something_, right? Maybe Ilsundal helped the Treekepers develope this ceremony. > >What about thosewhich had > >already been planted by the `native ` elves? Also this does pose > >aproblem for all those elves who recently immigrated from Thyatis as > >well doesn`t it? > > Not all clans have a ToL. Callari do have one and the Thyatians Vyalia have > one too IIRC, but the Karameikan Vyalia don't. > > BTW: does the 50 miles limit apply also to daughter trees or just to mother > ones? I wouls say all, but AFAIK there isn't written anything specific about that. Hĺvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:10:24 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 23.01 27/07/98 +0200, Hĺvard Rřnne Faanes wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Fabrizio Paoli wrote: > >> IIRC CM7 or GAZ5 state that uprooting and moving a ToL is very dangerous >> for the ToL itself, so in our Timeline we had the treekeepers research a >> ceremony to allow them to move the ToL without harming them. > >Sounds reasonable. Another option would be Ilsundal intervening. He had to >do _something_, right? Maybe Ilsundal helped the Treekepers develope this >ceremony. True. I don't remember exactly if I mentioned this in the Timeline, but I agree there's Ilsundal's help in the background. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:32:05 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Fabrizio said: >The problem is that both in GAZ5 and CM7 there's no easy way to move a ToL. >You can cut a branch and plant it elsewhere, but in this way you'll just >have a daughter ToL and when the mother ToL dies so does the daughter. So >this is not a practical way to save the ToL, because if the shadow elves >destroy the original ToL in Aengmor/Alfheim, then you'll lose the daughter >ones too. How about this. In one of my novels there's this being called a Great Tree, a mile-high sentient tree that slowly moves across the landscape. ToLs are sort of like this in that they are intelligent, and "good". What the Great Trees did to reproduce, or just before it died, was to concentrate a lot of energy into creating a "life leaf" - a gigantic leaf that had a rudimentary intelligence of its own. Filled with air pockets, the life leaf would break off the Great Tree once the time had come. it would then float along the air currents, gliding along until it found a suitable place to land, and then it would take root and become a new Great Tree. Perhaps we could do a similar thing. Ilsundal kept the secret of the life leaf away from his followers because they did not need to know yet. When the SEs invaded, he told his treekeepers what had to be done. The treekeepers could recite a complicated ritual, and the ToL would produce a life leaf. This looks like a normal leaf, except it's silver-coloured and it must not be exposed to direct sunlight. The treekeeper carries it along, nourishing it with his/her own life energies, until a new place it found, and then it is planted during a full moon. Once the life leaf takes root, the old ToL dies. If the old ToL is destroyed before the life leaf can be planted, the treekeeper dies along with the leaf. I know it's a little off the wall, but I think it could work. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:30:20 -0600 (MDT) From: John Hare Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves > The problem is that both in GAZ5 and CM7 there's no easy way to move a ToL. > You can cut a branch and plant it elsewhere, but in this way you'll just > have a daughter ToL and when the mother ToL dies so does the daughter. So > this is not a practical way to save the ToL, because if the shadow elves > destroy the original ToL in Aengmor/Alfheim, then you'll lose the daughter > ones too. > IIRC CM7 or GAZ5 state that uprooting and moving a ToL is very dangerous > for the ToL itself, so in our Timeline we had the treekeepers research a > ceremony to allow them to move the ToL without harming them. In a game I was playing in, the treekeepers did perform a ceremony and dug up the tree. They then used an air ship to cart it off to their new home. However another way to do it might be to shrink the ToL temporarily and teleport it or other wise move it. Mind you the shadow elves aren't stupid, while they might not understand the signifigance of a ToL doesn't mean their will ignore them. Guards and observers could prove to be an interesting adventure. Get in, grab the tree and try to get out before massive shadow elf reinforcements show up. "If death is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." -Solomon Short _A Season for Slaughter_ John Hare *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:36:06 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells For those who are interested in either Taymoran Magic and Society or simply in spells in general, I have posted a series of ancient Taymoran spells on my website. I must notet hat these spells were based on the Thaumaturgical spells found in Mayfair Games "Demons" supplement, adapted to lycanthropes and the Taymoran Necromancer-Kings. here's a link to my site (maybe, if I get this right)... My Web Site Let me know what you think! Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:44:17 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm around. :) Back in 1981-85 I wrote the D&D boxed sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortals) with a framework for a campaign world. However, I did NOTHING for the development of that campaign, being too busy with other projects. So don't ask me about Mystara itself... ;> Nevertheless, a little bird told me that folks on this list might want to pin me to the mat on occasion, or perform other vile and unspeakable acts on my person in retribution for unleashing such a campaign on innocent and unsuspecting folks like yourselves. So here I am. Email at will. :) And you can catch me at GenCon, if you're coming; I'm the main auctioneer. - -- Frank Mentzer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) At 09:44 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote: >Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm around. :) > >Back in 1981-85 I wrote the D&D boxed sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, >Immortals) with a framework for a campaign world. > COOL!!!!!! >However, I did NOTHING for the development of that campaign, being too busy >with other projects. So don't ask me about Mystara itself... ;> > Sure you did; you created the damn thing! That's more than most people ever get to do, and you've got hundreds of people talking about yours! >Nevertheless, a little bird told me that folks on this list might want to pin >me to the mat on occasion, or perform other vile and unspeakable acts on my >person in retribution for unleashing such a campaign on innocent and >unsuspecting folks like yourselves. > We're not like that, at least not most of the time. We're a friendly bunch as long as we're not discussing the Ethengar-Glantri war, or Karamekian morality and propaganda, and other sensitive topics. But we don't perform vile and unspeakable acts. At least, not in public. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:13:26 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves >BTW: does the 50 miles limit apply also to daughter trees or just to mother >ones? I presume not, because IIRC Clan Feadiels tree is still in the Sylvan Realm - they are(were) using a daughter tree. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:14:51 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Here is again my post of last tuesday. I send it again because at least Paul Dooley said that he hadn't receive it. I also again will ask your opinions about Alexander Glantri's death year and enfeoffment of Nouvelle Averoigne and Klantyre. Also I forget from last post third important point: coming of ethengarians to Glantri. On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 hihama@uta.fi wrote: > I've been planning to write something about history of Glantri's various > principalities and their ruling houses. I have made some research about > subject and i have some presuppositions to made which i want to you know > and comment before i send any other works for list. I don't have either > G:KOM or Mark of Amber so if there is anything in the following thats > against information in those accessories please let me know. > > Settlers > According to various sources thyatian settlers came to Glantri around > 730 AC. They were escaping fighting in Alasiyan colonies in nowadays > Ylaruam. Traladarans came around same time period. D'Ambrevilles and > their first followers came somewhere in 740's and McGregors and their > followers in 750's. Alphatians come with Halzunthram in 780's. > Interesting question is when ethengarians came. I have seen somewhere > that they came during the 40 year war in 788-828. That might be possible > because of the chaotic situation in area, but anyhow i just wonder why > they were allowed to stay after war. One possibility is that they offer > their help to Halzunthrams enemies and were essential to victory. > > Morphail and traladarans > Interesting point is that Prince Morphail was made Nosferatu by Alphaks > arond 720 AC and traladarans came to Glantri about 10 years later. This > makes one wonder Alphaks' motives. Maybe Alphaks was behind Morphail's > and his followers migration to Glantri. Alphaks want someone powerfull > enough to make chaos amongst Flaems in Glantri. He fullfilled Morphails > wish to become immortal by making him nosferatu and as the repayment he > wants Morphail to take his people to Glantri. Morphail does this and > heads for Glantris northeastern forests. > > Halzunthram > Halzunthram and his followers came to Glantri in 786 and propably were > decicive force in the Battle of Braastar were Flaems were defeated by > combined forces of elves and settlers. The Glantri was divided in the > three parts: Flaems get north, elves south and settlers west. This makes > traladarans position in nowadays Boldavia interesting, that area was > definitely in north. Solution might be that traladarans were only settlers > that Flaems accepted because leaders of traladarans were mages like Morphail. > Traladarans might even have fight at the Flaems side. In GAZ3 they say > that Boldavian are mixed traladaran and flaemish outcasts and if I > remember correctly that is only case there is any mention for Flaem to mix > with any other people. > Before 788 Glantrian council was composed of 7 flaemish dukes and 1 > archduke. After peace I think the council was propably recomposed so > that there was 3 flaemish, 2 elves and 2 settlers so that it can > represent all the Glantrian people. After Halzunthrams taking over and > reclaring Glantri to Alphatias colony council was propably dismissed. > > Alexander Glantri > In 829 Alexander Glantri declares the republic and reforms the council. > Now there are seven members in council representing various ethnic > groups in Glantri. There are 1 flaemish, 1 elf, 1 traladaran, 1 > ethengarian, 1 thyatian, 1 alphatian and 1 for mixed hattian/alphatian > group in northern Glantri. I think that in that time was also created > parliament for other nobles and nobility system that exists still, I > mean that baronies farthest from the capital and so on. Also offices > like judge, spokesman, chamberlain and treasurer and 3 viceroys are > propably created. It might be that each viceroy get the responsibility > for building castle in place were council wants it to be build. > By the way is anywhere mentioned Alexander Glantri's year of death? > > D'Ambrevilles and McGregors > Interesting point in council reformation is why D'Ambrevilles and > McGregors don't get representative in council in that time. Both groups > have been in Glantri already nearly hundred years, much longer than > ethengarians if we accept the hypothesis that they came during the war. > Possible solutions may be that they were still not very populous groups > or that they were not influential enough, which is hard to believe at > least for Etienne D'Ambreville or they might have been fighting for > Halzunthram, but then again so were most of the Alphatians. Any ideas? > Apropos I think that the only reason for the expulsion of the dwarves > after the war was not that they were blamed for the plague. I think that > equal reason would be that they fight at the side of Halzunthram, he > might even have called them to Glantri. > Back to D'Ambrevilles. Etienne becomes immortal 845 and begins to build > the Great School. I think Etienne must have been very influential in > taking the Light of Rad decision in 858 and in expulsion of illegal > nobles after that. And because of that I think that creation of his > principality might be somewhere in 860's or 870's. Fine moment would be > the completion of the Great School in 875. And I think that principality > of Klantyre is created at the same time because other princes want to > have someone who hates Etienne as a prince so that Etiennne doesn't get > too much power. > > Light of Rad > At the same time that this decision was made members of the council gain > the hereditary title of princes and there are created principalities of > Aalban, Belcadiz, Berghoven, Blackhill, Boldavia, Caurenze and > Krondahar. As I say before perfect time for creating principalities of > Klantyre and Nouvelle Averoigne is in my opinion in 875. Principality of > Erewan is created in 884. > > I think thats everything at the moment. Please let me know if there are > any flaws or mistakes. If anything goes as I have planned first princely > house would be von Drachenfels. > > t:Harri M{ki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:50:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >opinions about Alexander Glantri's death year For some reason I get the idea that Glantri dies shortly before or after the Light of Rad...don't know why... Glantri was a wizard though, wasn't he? >and enfeoffment of Nouvelle Averoigne and Klantyre. Not too sure about these ones, Klantyre seem to be in another of the "taking land from the Flaems" locations... >Also I forget from last post third important >point: coming of ethengarians to Glantri. I always thought they generally were around in small bands all the time anyway, maybe a lot got brought through to help fight Halzunthram? >> Morphail and traladarans >> Interesting point is that Prince Morphail was made Nosferatu by Alphaks >> arond 720 AC and traladarans came to Glantri about 10 years later. This >> makes one wonder Alphaks' motives. Maybe Alphaks was behind Morphail's >> and his followers migration to Glantri. Alphaks want someone powerfull >> enough to make chaos amongst Flaems in Glantri. He fullfilled Morphails >> wish to become immortal by making him nosferatu and as the repayment he >> wants Morphail to take his people to Glantri. Morphail does this and >> heads for Glantris northeastern forests. I never viewed Morphail as alphaks pawn, more as someone who hated Alphaks for denying him true immortality. I would see his move to Glantri as a way to escape his former master, travelling to where Alphaks was hated... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:27:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Gordon McCormick writes >For some reason I get the idea that Glantri dies shortly before or >after the Light of Rad...don't know why... My own favourite idea is that he dies very early in 830's, because I want him out of the leadership of the thyatians there, so that I can bring some more interesting peoples in front. I must emphasise that this question is as also the question about Nouvelle Averoigne and Klantyre are essential for my building of history of princely houses and their leaders positions in government. >Glantri was a wizard though, wasn't he? I'm not so sure about that. He was titeled Lord and he was minor noble, but I can't remember that there was anything else about that. I would like to think that he was fighter and Halzunthram was wizard. >>Also I forget from last post third important >>point: coming of ethengarians to Glantri. >I always thought they generally were around in small bands all the >time anyway, maybe a lot got brought through to help fight >Halzunthram? In GAZ3 there is mention that they came to Glantri during the dark years. At same page there are mentions about dark years in other places, where they all mean the 40 years war. So problem is how we interpret dark years in that point. Do they mean 40 years war or longer timeperiod like 600-800 AC. >I never viewed Morphail as alphaks pawn, more as someone who hated >Alphaks for denying him true immortality. I would see his move to >Glantri as a way to escape his former master, travelling to where >Alphaks was hated... Yes, I think also that he hates Alphaks for what he did. But there is specific mention that he came to Glantri to wreack havoc/spy for Alphaks. Or am I remembering totally wrong, must check it out. But anyhow you agree that Morphail came Glantri only after he was made nosferatu. t:Harri M{ki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:45:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:27:35 +0300 (EET DST) >From: Harri M{ki >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM >Reply-to: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > >Gordon McCormick writes > >>For some reason I get the idea that Glantri dies shortly before or >>after the Light of Rad...don't know why... > >My own favourite idea is that he dies very early in 830's, because I want >him out of the leadership of the thyatians there, so that I can bring some >more interesting peoples in front. I must emphasise that this question is >as also the question about Nouvelle Averoigne and Klantyre are essential >for my building of history of princely houses and their leaders positions >in government. Glantri's a weird place, cos a lot of the Princes have been there for, well, the whole existance of the country! >>Glantri was a wizard though, wasn't he? > >I'm not so sure about that. He was titeled Lord and he was minor noble, >but I can't remember that there was anything else about that. I would like >to think that he was fighter and Halzunthram was wizard. I do seem to get the impression that he was a fighter, which is why I think he was out of the picture by the time the Light of Rad was held. Once he's gone the diMalapietra's can move in... >>>Also I forget from last post third important >>>point: coming of ethengarians to Glantri. > >>I always thought they generally were around in small bands all the >>time anyway, maybe a lot got brought through to help fight >>Halzunthram? > >In GAZ3 there is mention that they came to Glantri during the dark years. >At same page there are mentions about dark years in other places, where >they all mean the 40 years war. So problem is how we interpret dark years >in that point. Do they mean 40 years war or longer timeperiod like 600-800 >AC. I think either would work, possibly both, with small groups during the 600-800 time, then en masse during the war. >>I never viewed Morphail as alphaks pawn, more as someone who hated >>Alphaks for denying him true immortality. I would see his move to >>Glantri as a way to escape his former master, travelling to where >>Alphaks was hated... > >Yes, I think also that he hates Alphaks for what he did. But there is >specific mention that he came to Glantri to wreack havoc/spy for Alphaks. >Or am I remembering totally wrong, must check it out. I can't honestly remember myself... >But anyhow you agree >that Morphail came Glantri only after he was made nosferatu. Yupyup! Just wondering who's been around since the start...I'd imagine out of the 10 1000AC houses... (Erewan didn't exist) Igorov - Morphail Crowngaurd - Brannart Sylaire - Etienne Alhambra - Carnelia (Carmina? Can never remember)'s father? Linden - ancestor Ritterburg - ancestor Singhabad - ancestor Silverstone - ancestor Sirecchia - ancestor The last five provide the most interest cos they change over time :) gordon Gordon McCormick UNIX Team - System Management UCD Computing Services Belfield Dublin 4 Ireland +353 1 7062017 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:05:57 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Hi to all, as some newbies have joined us in the last months, I repeat a question I've asked some months ago. The question is, how can a dwarven clan reproduce the forge of power? Without a typical dwarven colonization is not possible. >From where the forges come in the first place. For elven and halfling relics many work has been done, but nothing for the dwarves. I ask for suggestions... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:16:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Hi! Welcome to the list. (Don't get the impression that i'm in charge or anything. I just work here :) I do remember Frank Mentzer very well as it was the boxed sets you wrote that introduced me to Mystara and to Roleplaying. I'd like to ask a few questions. What do you think about the Wrath of the Immortals, boxed set? If you are not familiar with it, that is the revised Immortals rules from D&D. Personally I tend to use the new box, though the Gold Box has quite a few interesting features. (And alot of complicated stuff I have a hard time understanding :) One of the parts I especially like is the description of the "Milky Way" which I am using as basis for the Mystara Space Project. (With Aaron Nowack, Marco Dalmonte(DM) and Lyndon Baugh.) We are developing Mystaras Galaxy using the Gold Box information, some information from The Princess Ark articles in Dragon and Champions of Mystara the boxed set as well as our own ideas. Who knows what will come out of this project. I also like some of your information about planes, though I have made things alot simpler in my campaign. I use the new definition of Dimension, and generally asume that the Planes appear to be three dimensional (with or without magic) unless I want something really weird. A list of all known planes in the Mystaran Multiverse can be found on my homepage. I have compiled this list with the help of James Mishler(aka Mystaros). Unfortunatelty I can't be at GenCon this year. Its quite far from Norway, but I'm hoping to go there sometime in the future. I hope to hear more from you on this list in the future. Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:24:47 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > Hi to all, > > as some newbies have joined us in the last months, I repeat a question I've > asked some months ago. The question is, how can a dwarven clan reproduce > the forge of power? Without a typical dwarven colonization is not possible. > >From where the forges come in the first place. For elven and halfling > relics many work has been done, but nothing for the dwarves. I ask for > suggestions... In my old campaign a dwarf character set up a new clan in the Hardanger mountains. He was a Dwarven Cleric and prayed to Kagyar and asked the Artisan to give his clan a Forge as a sign that Kagyar protected his clan. One night the young dwarf was visited by a strange figure. It was a small dwarf surrounded by swirling mists. He asked the Clanmaster to go to sleep while he was working. Through his sleep he heard sounds. Sounds that made him belive several thousand dwarven craftsmen were working in the next room. When he woke up the next day, he found a Forge of Power. The mysterious figure had vanished. Hope this helps. By the way. A friend of mine had an idea. To make magical items a dwarf must sacrifice XP. This could mean that he sacrifices part of his soul. What if a Dwarf learns that if he is using a certain amount of Soul Crystals from the Caverns of the Shadowelves, he is able to make magical Items without sacrficing XP? Tell me what your think. Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:42:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) >Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm around. :) Hi! >Back in 1981-85 I wrote the D&D boxed sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, >Immortals) with a framework for a campaign world. > >However, I did NOTHING for the development of that campaign, being too busy >with other projects. So don't ask me about Mystara itself... ;> Well....I think it was you who created Bargle, the Black Eagle Barony, Aleena and the start of Karameikos. Not too bad :) >Nevertheless, a little bird told me that folks on this list might want to pin >me to the mat on occasion, or perform other vile and unspeakable acts on my >person in retribution for unleashing such a campaign on innocent and >unsuspecting folks like yourselves. The list has been unervingly quiet lately, hardly a screed in sight, but I'm sure it'll pick up and people will ask for your wisdom :) (Hell, just for the nostaliga of those old books! Red book was what started it all off for me!) >So here I am. Email at will. :) And you can catch me at GenCon, if you're >coming; I'm the main auctioneer. Rats, too far away...have fun at it though! And anyone on the list who goes could you send the list a con report? (I miss Roger Moores reports...and M&M's...) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #543 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, July 29 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 544 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - Hi Hĺvard. Hi Gordon. ;> Re: [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Hi =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard.?= Hi Gordon. ;> Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 15 Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:36:21 PDT From: "Tim Ryan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer >> - BC in Massachusetts >As another hard core basic rules boyu from Mass, I'd definitely put >down even 50$ for a Compilation gaz (like what they did with B 1-9) >Provided it was done well, and without that AD&D "crap" everyone has >been ravin' 'bout. :) >Max IV This makes me wonder, has anyone compiled a list of where the people on this list are from? It'd be interesting, and it seems there's a cluster in Massachusetts, at least. Tim (in Massachusetts as well..) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:35:12 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? Hello Mystarans! Glantri is considered the best gaz by quite a few people. However, I feel that there is alot I don't know about this strange country. Much that cannot be found within the Gaz. This was probably left out due to lack of space. What I miss is information about the various Principalities. The Gaz is filled with info on Glantri City, the mages, the School and the Noble families. But what are the people living out there in the Principalities like? I'd like to challenge you all to make a mini-gaz for each of the Principalities. What do you think? Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:54:36 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >Here is again my post of last tuesday. I send it again because at least >Paul Dooley said that he hadn't receive it. I also again will ask your >opinions about Alexander Glantri's death year and enfeoffment of Nouvelle >Averoigne and Klantyre. Also I forget from last post third important >point: coming of ethengarians to Glantri. > Mark of Amber mentions 896 as the year when Etienne was confirmed as Prince of New Averoigne. G:KoM says that Brannart killed his father and took his place as Prince of Klantyre. This seems to indicate that Brannart isn't the first ruler of Klantyre. His son Duncan is described in GAZ3 as "having to follow his clan into Glantri, leaving his beloved Scotland behind". This seems to indicate that Duncan was an adult (or at least a teenager) when Crownguard came to Mystara. Judging from Duncan's approximate age (about 35 in 1000 AC), Crownguard arrived to Mystara not earlier than 980 AC. When Crownguard arrived, the Ambrevilles' gate to Laterre was inadvertently closed; but Etienne brought Genevieve de Sephora from Laterre in 979 AC (MoA). So, judging from the above, I'd say Crownguard arrived in 980 AC, and Klantyre was enfeoffed to Brannart's father soon after. Another version: G:KoM's timeline states that Brannart McGregor and Crownguard enter Glantri in 743 AC, but since Brannart wasn't even born until 927 AC, it's rather conflicting. You could assume that Klantyre is actually a couple of centuries older, and the first prince was also named Brannart, but that would imply that Duncan McGregor is much older than anyone suspected (which is somehow unbelievable - such mage-hater wouldn't attempt to extend his life-span so much). I think this version can be safely ignored. >From an illustration in G:KoM, we can conclude that Alexander Glantri was about 35-40 years old when he defeated Halzunthram. That would place his death in approximately 860 AC. However, since the Light of Rad happened in 858 AC, and Alexander Glantri was apparently a fighter, I'd say he died just before 858 AC, and his death allowed wizards to declare their rule without obstacles. It is ironic that the greatest hero of Glantri was a lowly fighter :) About Ethengarians in Glantri. Jherek is (was) the fourth ruler of Krondahar. He was 44 in 1000 AC, having ruled perhaps 15 years. Counting off three more generations, and allowing for some magically extended lifespans, we get the rise of the first Virayana at approximately 900 AC. This meshes well with the timeline event of 898 AC, when "a wave of immigrants enters Glantri and racial tensions ease" (G:KoM). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:24:30 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hi Hĺvard. Hi Gordon. ;> hoc@nvg.ntnu.no wrote: >I'd like to ask a few questions. >What do you think about the Wrath of the Immortals, boxed set? Um, sorry; never read it. Here's the basic scoop as to why: In '85 Gary got ousted from TSR in an internal hostile takeover by one Lorraine Williams. In '86 I left to help Gary start New Infinities, which subsequently died under a legal barrage from Lorraine. From then until last year I was one of the Personae Non Grata, perceived as an enemy since Gary and I were friends. And thus, with that attitude from TSR (and their revisionist technique of removing the names of all of us NonGratans from view whenever possible), I lost track of what TSR was doing. :/ But now that WotC has bought TSR and Lorraine is out of the picture, well, we're no longer NonGrata. (btw, the head of WotC is a gamer and goodguy named Peter. Things are definitely changing back for the better.) <> Ah, they decided that five-dimensional space was too hard to grasp, and dumbed it down? Not surprising. Redefined "dimension", eh? Right. :( <> Hm, that reminds me... a convention in either Norway or Finland (I don't recall which) was once considering inviting me as a GoH. I'd be happy to go and would even cover all my own expense except plane fare; your part of the world is one of my all-time favorites. If you have any ideas on this score, get back to me. :) gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie wrote: >Well....I think it was you who created Bargle, the Black Eagle Barony, Aleena and the start of Karameikos. Not too bad :) Guilty as charged for Bargle and Aleena; however, I'm fairly sure the Barony and Karamaikos were originated by Dave "Zeb" Cook, in the version of D&D Expert that immediately preceded mine. Credit where credit was due... and I've always considered Zeb to be one of the best designers TSR ever had. (He left 'em back in the 80s, I think, as did I.) Obscure side notes: Bargle was from my own campaign, but Aleena is from my girlfriend of around that time, Aileen Shea. >I'm sure it'll pick up and people will ask for your wisdom Sorry, fresh out. Got a fair dose of uncommon sense, tho. Havagud and holler back any time. - -- Frank Mentzer (better known for creating the RPGA and co-authoring things like Temple of Elemental Evil [for AD&D] than my D&D works) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:42:13 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 Mystaros@aol.com wrote: > My Web > Site > > Let me know what you think! This looks cool! :) Maybe I should try getting the Demons stuff anyway. I find this fascinating and I'd really like to know more about the Necromancer-Kings. Do you feel like making a Taymor Gaz? It sounds like an interesting setting for a campaign. One minor detail. You completely forgot about the Giant WereHawks! PC4 includes the story of a young elf who spent his life slaying Giant WereHawks eventually exterminating the critters. As a result he gained Immortality. I dont have PC4 here, right now, so I cant give you any details. My Players find this story increadibly silly for some reason. No statistics are given for these creatures, but I suggest that they are slightly more powerful than Werebats. This would make them greater Lycantrophes? btw: Geocities is a really annoying place. I hate those comercial ads! I had a look at the map of Old Nithia. Cool! Some of the names were a bit difficult to read though. PS: You know Mike Nystul? I'm not worthy! :) Sincerely, Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:42:16 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 18.32 27/07/98 -0400, Geoff Gander wrote: >Perhaps we could do a similar thing. Ilsundal kept the secret of the life >leaf away from his followers because they did not need to know yet. When >the SEs invaded, he told his treekeepers what had to be done. The >treekeepers could recite a complicated ritual, and the ToL would produce a >life leaf. This looks like a normal leaf, except it's silver-coloured and >it must not be exposed to direct sunlight. The treekeeper carries it >along, nourishing it with his/her own life energies, until a new place it >found, and then it is planted during a full moon. Once the life leaf >takes root, the old ToL dies. If the old ToL is destroyed before the life >leaf can be planted, the treekeeper dies along with the leaf. > I like it. Thanks Geoff. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:44:26 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves At 17.30 27/07/98 -0600, John Hare wrote: >In a game I was playing in, the treekeepers did perform a ceremony and dug >up the tree. They then used an air ship to cart it off to their new home. Maybe the elven airship depicted in CoM? >However another way to do it might be to shrink the ToL temporarily and >teleport it or other wise move it. But IIRC uprooting a ToL causes it to die. >Mind you the shadow elves aren't >stupid, while they might not understand the signifigance of a ToL doesn't >mean their will ignore them. Guards and observers could prove to be an >interesting adventure. Get in, grab the tree and try to get out before >massive shadow elf reinforcements show up. BTW: I forgot to say that IMO the fleeing Alfheim elves managed to magically conceal the ToL that they left in Canolbarth. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:20:53 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hi =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard.?= Hi Gordon. ;> Hi Frank Sorry to hear about those intrigues. I hope that is a thing of the past. Maybe someone should make a soap opera aout TSR? Too few atractive people and too few women perhaps? :P On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 ExTSR@aol.com wrote: > hoc@nvg.ntnu.no wrote: > < but I'm hoping to go there sometime in the future.>> > > Hm, that reminds me... a convention in either Norway or Finland (I don't > recall which) was once considering inviting me as a GoH. I'd be happy to go > and would even cover all my own expense except plane fare; your part of the > world is one of my all-time favorites. If you have any ideas on this score, > get back to me. :) Could that be Arcon? Arcon is Scandinavia's largest gaming convention and takes place Oslo each year. I'll see if I can get in touch with some of the people arranging that convention. It is nice to hear that you like my part of the world! It was really interesting to hear about the backgrounds of Aleena and Bargle. These are actually quite important NPCs in my campaign at this time. I am trying to revive some of the good old D&D feeling. (Strangely enough I am using GURPS rather than D&D) As for David "Zeb" Cook, I have seen his name on several occations, both in Dragon and on TSR Novels. It is possible that he was a freelancer at the time, rather than a TSR emloyee though. Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:03:30 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Master Gazeteer > This makes me wonder, has anyone compiled a list of where >the people on this list are from? It'd be interesting, and it seems >there's a cluster in Massachusetts, at least. >Tim >(in Massachusetts as well..) I've been compiling lists of gamers in the different settings, and putting them together. Then when a person gets on a list and says "are there any gamers in the... area" I can give them a match-up and e-mail address. Everyone that I've put on the lists has advertised this fact though. They were looking for games, or gamers- so there are many addresses that aren't on that list. Ramble off. What I'd like to say is that anyone who'd like to be part of a contact list, just e-mail me privately (address in the sig), put "Private- gamers list" in the subject line (so it filters to the right place), State name, city, state, (local area if big city), games that you're interested in, and whether you're looking for gamers/dm's or both. Added things like ph#, ICQ#, AOL handles, address, etc. are optional and would be kept on this list. If I get responses to this, I'll do a complete listing of names that I get along with city/state and e-mail address in a single post which will save band-width and countless messages :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:10:52 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power > In my old campaign a dwarf character set up a new clan in the Hardanger > mountains. He was a Dwarven Cleric and prayed to Kagyar and asked the > Artisan to give his clan a Forge as a sign that Kagyar protected his clan. > One night the young dwarf was visited by a strange figure. It was a small > dwarf surrounded by swirling mists. He asked the Clanmaster to go to sleep > while he was working. Through his sleep he heard sounds. Sounds that made > him belive several thousand dwarven craftsmen were working in the next > room. When he woke up the next day, he found a Forge of Power. The > mysterious figure had vanished. > > > Hope this helps. Not sure if I've understood all, but it helps. You're thinking into the same direction as I did, but it sounds better. Where were you the last time? The "Dwarves of Rockhome" Gazetteer does not help anything as Aaron Allston had not understood the relics of the dwarves > > By the way. A friend of mine had an idea. To make magical items a dwarf > must sacrifice XP. This could mean that he sacrifices part of his soul. > What if a Dwarf learns that if he is using a certain amount of Soul > Crystals from the Caverns of the Shadowelves, he is able to make magical > Items without sacrficing XP? Tell me what your think. > Soul crystals does not contain souls so I would say no to it. Fabrizio might say more about this. Even if working a dwarf using a soul crystal wouldn't be happy with that as the SE would chase him for heresy. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:09:42 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > Not sure if I've understood all, but it helps. You're thinking into the > same direction as I did, but it sounds better. Where were you the last > time? The "Dwarves of Rockhome" Gazetteer does not help anything as Aaron > Allston had not understood the relics of the dwarves Not sure where I was. I dont recall seeing this topic before. I may have overlooked the mail :( What I was trying to say was basically that the Forges are given to new clans by Kagyar or one of his servants. > > By the way. A friend of mine had an idea. To make magical items a dwarf > > must sacrifice XP. This could mean that he sacrifices part of his soul. > > What if a Dwarf learns that if he is using a certain amount of Soul > > Crystals from the Caverns of the Shadowelves, he is able to make magical > > Items without sacrficing XP? Tell me what your think. > Soul crystals does not contain souls so I would say no to it. Fabrizio > might say more about this. Even if working a dwarf using a soul crystal > wouldn't be happy with that as the SE would chase him for heresy. I know. Then again..what if Rafiel is lying to his Shamans? Maybe the things do contain souls? OTOH, there could be other reasons why this would work for the dwarves. And this would create more tension between the SEs and the Dwarves. Which is cool :) Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:08:17 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Taymoran Lycanthropy Spells In a message dated 98-07-28 15:54:30 EDT, Havard write: << This looks cool! :) Maybe I should try getting the Demons stuff anyway. >> Yes, pick it up if you can find it. The first boxed set was the best... << I find this fascinating and I'd really like to know more about the Necromancer-Kings. Do you feel like making a Taymor Gaz? It sounds like an interesting setting for a campaign.>> Actually, I've been working on a Taymoran Gaz on and off for quite some time... that's the major project of the moment, as it were. The Lycanthropy spells are the only firm thing completed as of this time... << One minor detail. You completely forgot about the Giant WereHawks! PC4 includes the story of a young elf who spent his life slaying Giant WereHawks eventually exterminating the critters. As a result he gained Immortality. I dont have PC4 here, right now, so I cant give you any details. My Players find this story increadibly silly for some reason. No statistics are given for these creatures, but I suggest that they are slightly more powerful than Werebats. This would make them greater Lycantrophes?>> IMC, the Werehawks are one of the many types of lycanthropes that were CREATED by the Lycanthropic Plague of the 5th century AC; thus, they were not extant at the time of the Necromancer-Kings. I would actually break them up into two groups: Werehawks (lesser lycanthropes) and wereeagles (greater lycanthropes). << btw: Geocities is a really annoying place. I hate those comercial ads! >> Yeah, I know. But it's free! <> Sorry. I'll try to make the names a bit larger on the next series of maps (Shadow Coast, Taymor, Nueva Ispanola, etc.)... <> Merely an acquaintance... met him at Origins... Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:41:27 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Operation Hydra: Day 15 Operation Hydra: Day 15 Force A: The seige of Minrothad City continues. Adm. Helena is content to wait out the defenders. The various seige devices she ordered her troops to construct are progressing well. She has them constructed within sight of the defenders, hoping they cause panic with the defenders. Force B: With the coming of dawn, Gen. di Cicero orders the bombardment of Harbortown renewed. The bombardment continues uninterrupted until a call is sent to halt. The troops of 20th Cohort under Gen. Valicius arrive at the Thyatian lines around noon. These troops are integrated into the seige lines and the bombardment renewed. Adm. Serpico sends a message to the land force commander asking if he could initiate a landing to secure the piers. He cites the loss of the two piers earlier and chance of future pier losses. He is told to continue his bombardment as usual and prepare for a landing on the following day. Serpico takes this literally and opts for a night landing just after midnight. He has his marines stand down and get some rest, while the artillerists bombard the shoreline. Force C: Gen Nikkos orders the troops of 28th and 4th Cohorts into Malfton to ocupy it. He sends word to 6th Cohort to remain at its place at the mouth of the Quickhand and continue resting from its own recent actions at CoveHarbor. Nikkos meets with Kimble Nimblefingers. The two discuss the situation. Nikkos tells the halfling that Open Island is now part of the Thyatian Empire. Nikkos stresses that the hin now must choose what role they will provide for the Empire. Either they conform and contribute as citizens, or they can contribute as slaves. Nikkos stresses the former, as he has little love of slavery. The Hin leader, thinking of the interests of his people, opts for the former. He signs a formal surrender of Open Island. In the armistice, are provision that highly favor the hin. The hin will be treated as citizens of Thyatis and bear all rights afforded to citizensNimblefingers thanks Nikkos for the fair treatment of not only himself but also his people. Nikkos uses magical means to report the news to Adm. Helena. She is startled at the losses. Thinking that the real defense would be with the few Home Guard units, she had not expected the Hin to resist so strongly. Adm. Helena informs Nikkos that the Emperor has decided that he should act as military governor of Open Island. Nikkos is please at this. The promises he had made the Hin would have been difficult to be made official if he did not have that authority. He had overstepped his authority in regards to much of the terms he gave the Hin. Nikkos asks the admiral about terms, suggesting the Hin be offered citizenship in return for loyal service. Adm. Helena agrees. This is a relief to Nikkos. Force D: Adm. Pentalon and his 5th Fleet continue their task of ferrying the captured loot of CoveHarbor back to Thyatis City. The escorting ships of 23rd Fleet are still present despite having no adversaries near. The admiral of 23rd Fleet requests permission to leave the convoy and return to Open Island. Still a bit paranoid, Adm. Pentalon refuses the request. He has access to 23rd Fleet for this last day before it returns to the warzone. As such, he wants their protection for the entire day. The loot convoy sails ahead slowly but steadily. Shortly after dusk, the ships of 23rd Fleet turn back towards Open Island. The loot ships of 5th Fleet are in relative safe waters. They are but a few days sail from Thyatis City and it is doubtful that there are any Minrothad naval vessels in the area. Possibly there may be a few scattered vessels, but the ships of 5th Fleet should be enough of a deterent. Without the slow heavily weighted ships of 5th Fleet, 23rd Fleet can sail at full speed. Setting a course, they head back to Open Island. Force E: Capt. Ostenphius and his troops continue onto Bright Cliff. Progress is good and by nightfall, the troops are within a day's march of the town. Morale is good and the men are ready to assault BrightCliff and take possession of the lighthouse. The mental state of the defenders of Minrothad City grows worse. The images of Thyatians building river and wall breaching equipment does much to shock them. Most expect an assault soon and the garrison commanders double the watch and place their troops on a constant alert. Oran Meditor addresses the people of the city to try to calm them. He tells them that such panic is precisely what the Thyatians want. He points out that the defenses of the city are probably among the world's most formidable. This helps to a certain degree but not much as the Thyatians beyond the walls are a constant reminder. Harbortown's defenders are also bearing the seige badly. Most damage has been done by the Thyatian Navy. The Thyatian land forces seem content to batter down their walls. The recent arrival of another Thyatian Cohort really diminishes their morale. The worst aspect is their supply situation. Water is in abundance, yet food is beginning to become strained. The city had some food stored, primarily for trade. However, these stores were near the docks and several of the warehouses were destroyed by naval bombardment. Harbortown orders all foodstocks to be moved inward to safe areas and enacts strict rationing. Matin Dirkson's Marines continue their journey to relieve Malfton. On the way, they discover the battleground between the HomeGuard and Hin Militia against the Thyatians. Though the bodies were buried after the battle, the ground is strewn with a great deal of broken and damaged equipment, mostly of Guild construction. These scene slightly diminishes the high morale the force displayed earlier. Many troops voice their fears and apprehension. Dirkson is undaunted and does much to reinforce the confidence of his troops. He reminds them that the Thyatian force was at a disadvantage. They had already fought in one battle and had placed themselves into another. Their losses and fatigue should balance things out. Dirkson goes on to tell them that the carnage they see is a sign of just how desperate their fight is. Dirkson speech does much to rebuild their resolve if not their confidence. The MMF continues on its way, following the paths the Thyatians left. Thier progress is good. By nightfall, the MMF has drawn within a days march of Malfton. Advance scouts report the Thyatians have occupied the town. They also report their numbers and large number of wounded. Also noted is the devastated state of the town's defenses. Dirkson is confident despite the loss of the town. The Thyatians are weakened by their two battles. The condition of the defenses means that his forces will not have too much obstruction in breaching them. Dirkson is also betting on the Hin rising up and assisting his forces. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:08:38 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? In a message dated 98-07-28 14:41:44 EDT, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: << Glantri is considered the best gaz by quite a few people. However, I feel that there is alot I don't know about this strange country. Much that cannot be found within the Gaz. This was probably left out due to lack of space. What I miss is information about the various Principalities. The Gaz is filled with info on Glantri City, the mages, the School and the Noble families. But what are the people living out there in the Principalities like? I'd like to challenge you all to make a mini-gaz for each of the Principalities. >> i agree. however the same could go for thyatis too. gazs for alphatia are in the works. i shall volunteer. but first i really have to get the randel gaz and eadrin gaz. by then i will be more than ready for a change of venue. btw- the randel gaz will be sent out friday. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:59:19 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities In a message dated 1998-07-28 10:58:25 Eastern Daylight Time, gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie writes: > Just wondering who's been around since the start...I'd imagine out of > the 10 1000 AC houses... > > Crownguard - Brannart I thought I read somewhere that Brannart was not the first Prince of Klantyre - -- and in any case he was born in the early 900s. I read something similar about Etienne in Gaz 3, but that reference was definitely contradicted by _Mark of Amber_. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:22:07 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves - ----->>In a game I was playing in, the treekeepers did perform a ceremony and dug >>up the tree. They then used an air ship to cart it off to their new home. > >Maybe the elven airship depicted in CoM? Maybe an elven lightship? Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:02:02 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power In a message dated 1998-07-28 12:12:46 Eastern Daylight Time, JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes: > as some newbies have joined us in the last months, I repeat a question I've > asked some months ago. The question is, how can a dwarven clan reproduce > the forge of power? Without a typical dwarven colonization is not possible. Since as you logically pointed out such a process must be possible, I would assume that there must be some method for creating a new Forge of Power from an old one, but that the process must be a long and difficult one. To keep things simple, I would use the same method as is given in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia for making a Rockship -- but (optionally) add as a last step that the Dwarven Lens must be shattered and its shards fed into the Forge of Power to activate it. This would make it very costly and time consuming to create a new Forge of Power (at about a thousand years per Forge each), but it would be possible. Actually, I suspect that Dwarves are more likely to make new Forges of Power than to make Rockships. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:02:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves In a message dated 1998-07-28 16:21:12 Eastern Daylight Time, brizio@lunet.it writes: > BTW: I forgot to say that IMO the fleeing Alfheim elves managed to > magically conceal the ToL that they left in Canolbarth. That would certainly be consistent with the Companion level "Tree of Life" module, where the fleeing Feadiels left their Tree of Life in the Sylvan Realm even though their realm was being overrun by enemies. Maybe the Alfheim Elves used similar methods to hide and defend their Trees of Life. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #544 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 30 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 545 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - YOU co-wrote Temple of Elemental Evil?! Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Timeline Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:49:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Glantri, is it? >Glantri is considered the best gaz by quite a few people. However, I feel >that there is alot I don't know about this strange country. Much that >cannot be found within the Gaz. This was probably left out due to lack of >space. What I miss is information about the various Principalities. The >Gaz is filled with info on Glantri City, the mages, the School and the >Noble families. But what are the people living out there in the >Principalities like? I'd like to challenge you all to make a mini-gaz for >each of the Principalities. > >What do you think? I'd love to! Time wise may be a problem, but yeah, more info on the various areas would be very cool (Check out PC4 Night Howlers for a really good up close description of part of Glantri). gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:49:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >G:KoM says that Brannart killed his father and took his place as Prince of >Klantyre. This seems to indicate that Brannart isn't the first ruler of >Klantyre. His son Duncan is described in GAZ3 as "having to follow his clan >into Glantri, leaving his beloved Scotland behind". This seems to indicate >that Duncan was an adult (or at least a teenager) when Crownguard came to >Mystara. Judging from Duncan's approximate age (about 35 in 1000 AC), >Crownguard arrived to Mystara not earlier than 980 AC. When Crownguard >arrived, the Ambrevilles' gate to Laterre was inadvertently closed; but >Etienne brought Genevieve de Sephora from Laterre in 979 AC (MoA). So, >judging from the above, I'd say Crownguard arrived in 980 AC, and Klantyre >was enfeoffed to Brannart's father soon after. >Another version: G:KoM's timeline states that Brannart McGregor and >Crownguard enter Glantri in 743 AC, but since Brannart wasn't even born >until 927 AC, it's rather conflicting. You could assume that Klantyre is >actually a couple of centuries older, and the first prince was also named >Brannart, but that would imply that Duncan McGregor is much older than >anyone suspected (which is somehow unbelievable - such mage-hater wouldn't >attempt to extend his life-span so much). I think this version can be safely >ignored. Youch, I rekon it was before 980AC, the Scots seem to be quite entrenched in Glantri and not "newbies". Also I think Gaz3 mentions that the last Principality createad was Erewan when they split from Belcadiz. But when would the gate have closed? 980ish? I'd've thought earlier, but from PC4 I think it mentions the newly arrived nobles. Also, how long was Castle Amber missing for? >>From an illustration in G:KoM, we can conclude that Alexander Glantri was >about 35-40 years old when he defeated Halzunthram. That would place his >death in approximately 860 AC. However, since the Light of Rad happened in >858 AC, and Alexander Glantri was apparently a fighter, I'd say he died just >before 858 AC, and his death allowed wizards to declare their rule without >obstacles. It is ironic that the greatest hero of Glantri was a lowly >fighter :) I especially like this bit :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:57:19 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: [none] Mystara-Digest *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:29:07 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities In a message dated 1998-07-29 04:59:54 Eastern Daylight Time, gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie writes: > Also, how long was Castle Amber missing for? According to _Mark of Amber_, 83 years -- from AC 896 to AC 979. In regard to Klantyre, G:KoM gives a date of AC 743 for the arrival of the McGregors from Laterre, although the reference to Brannart must refer to somebody other than the present Prince. However, it does seem possible that contact with Laterre was maintained until about AC 980, with the result that all but the youngest members of that family may have lived on Laterre at some point in their lives -- but I will leave when and why as an exercise for others. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:44:49 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - YOU co-wrote Temple of Elemental Evil?! At 03:24 PM 7/28/98 EDT, you wrote: >hoc@nvg.ntnu.no wrote: > >-- Frank Mentzer (better known for creating the RPGA and co-authoring things >like Temple of Elemental Evil [for AD&D] than my D&D works) YOU wrote ToEE?! Great gods of gaming! In fact, since you created that wonderful dungeon, you ARE one of my gods of gaming! Allow me to fawn over your greatness and pay due homage to your creativity. My friends and I (we're all in the latter half of the twentysomethings) grew up getting our butts kicked by ToEE, and loving it. My friends and I refer to the early and mid 80's as our "golden age" of gaming, and Temple of Elemental Evil figures prominently in our fond memories. In fact, there's a special place in our hearts for 1st ed. AD&D, and over the years we've regretted seeing what the Advanced game has degenerated into, as well as the abandonment of the equally sound Basic/Classic gaming line. In fact, my group has "gone retro", and we play all Basic and 1st ed. AD&D stuff. I wish TSR would get back to its roots. Well, I suppose I'm ranting now, but I wanted to extend my "electronic handshake" to you, Mr. Mentzer, and let you know that there's at least one cabal of twentysomething gamers that really miss you and Mr. Gygax and Mr. Cook and some of the other people that made D&D and AD&D so great. Success in all your endeavors, Mr. Mentzer. Sincerely, Brian Courtemanche Gamer in Massachusetts *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:51:03 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Let's do the time warp again >Given how much time travel PCs end up doing sometimes (Blackmoor series, >Dynast quests come to mind) what have other DMs done with time-traveling >NPCs? Heroes from the past/future coming to interfere with the current >world of the PCs? Perhaps the PCs are opposing an empire and need to be >stopped by the Dynast as part of their Immortality quest? Could throw >some twists and turns to the expectations and plans of the PCs.. > >Oh well, just wondering if people have done anything with NPC time >travellers in Mystara and if so, what? > Hey! Why not Thincol was on the path of Dynast and left a clone which is who died. Maybe even Thincol=Gareth. He`s come from beyond the void of being dead. After seeing what happened to Thyatis, and now as an Immortal Knowing why, He`s definately against Immortal interference ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:31:13 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikan Elves >That would certainly be consistent with the Companion level "Tree of Life" >module, where the fleeing Feadiels left their Tree of Life in the Sylvan Realm >even though their realm was being overrun by enemies. Maybe the Alfheim >Elves used similar methods to hide and defend their Trees of Life. > Actually IIRC they did nothing of the sort. They tok a cutting which became a daughter tree and fled. The rest of the elves merged with their forest except for the Treekeeper who stayed to guard the way to the ToL. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:07:22 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >Youch, I rekon it was before 980AC, the Scots seem to be quite entrenched in Glantri and not "newbies". Also I think Gaz3 mentions You are just saying that because you are one :) >that the last Principality createad was Erewan when they split from Belcadiz. But when would the gate have closed? 980ish? I'd've thought earlier, but from PC4 I think it mentions the newly arrived nobles. Okay, how about the following timeline: 728: The D'Ambrevilles arrive in Glantri. 743: Crownguard and its leader Brannart (not the same as the present one) enter Glantri. Ambrevilles bring in more followers. 896: Etienne d'Ambreville confirmed as Prince of Nouvelle Averoigne. Castle Amber disappears. 979: Adventurers rescue Etienne. He brings Genevieve de Sephora and her tower Sylaire to Glantri. Malachie du Marais enters Glantri as well. 980: House Crownguard uses the Ambrevilles' gate to bring in the younger family members (including Duncan McGregor); the gate collapses. Brannart probably killed his father and became prince of Klantyre sometime between 960-980 AC. I'd say 980, myself, since it gives some irony to it all (Brannart's father brought his son in, and promptly got killed by him). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:28:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >>Youch, I rekon it was before 980AC, the Scots seem to be quite >entrenched in Glantri and not "newbies". Also I think Gaz3 mentions > >You are just saying that because you are one :) Well, umn, yeah :) >>that the last Principality createad was Erewan when they split from >Belcadiz. But when would the gate have closed? 980ish? I'd've thought >earlier, but from PC4 I think it mentions the newly arrived nobles. > >Okay, how about the following timeline: > >728: The D'Ambrevilles arrive in Glantri. >743: Crownguard and its leader Brannart (not the same as the present one) >enter Glantri. Ambrevilles bring in more followers. >896: Etienne d'Ambreville confirmed as Prince of Nouvelle Averoigne. Castle >Amber disappears. This is the wierd thing, that means Etienne's only been around as a Prince for about twenty years, but is refered to as the most powerful, is the Grand Master of the School etc. How had the power that he has now back in 979? >979: Adventurers rescue Etienne. He brings Genevieve de Sephora and her >tower Sylaire to Glantri. Malachie du Marais enters Glantri as well. >980: House Crownguard uses the Ambrevilles' gate to bring in the younger >family members (including Duncan McGregor); the gate collapses. Perhaps the gate could only function when Etienne was around (he had the key or something), so that when he left there was no travel between the two realms, then it was reopened when he got back (Perhaps time went differently on Laterre?) >Brannart probably killed his father and became prince of Klantyre sometime >between 960-980 AC. I'd say 980, myself, since it gives some irony to it all >(Brannart's father brought his son in, and promptly got killed by him). I like the idea of the gate collapsing because of Brannart's plot to kill his father.... Actually, how about time didn't pass at all quickly on Laterre, so that when the gate closed Brannarts Father had just left. During his time on Glantri he discoverred necromancy and eventually the Radiance. Using this he lived as undead. When the gate was reopened Brannart was appaled by what had happened to his father and killed him by destroying the gate when his father was passing through. Stuck in Glantri he took up the burden of leadership before eventually succuming himself to the evils of necromancy? Maybe? Maybe not? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:32:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Timeline Is there a timeline of events for the Savage Coast from 1000AC to 1010AC? (probably in the Net Almanacs I rekon) Just reading the Red Steel book and it mentions the huge amounts of wars and things going on during the Wrath of the Immortals. Just wondering what they were! gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:04:36 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power > Since as you logically pointed out such a process must be possible, I would > assume that there must be some method for creating a new Forge of Power > from an old one, but that the process must be a long and difficult one. To > keep things simple, I would use the same method as is given in the D&D > Rules Cyclopedia for making a Rockship -- but (optionally) add as a last > step that the Dwarven Lens must be shattered and its shards fed into the > Forge of Power to activate it. This would make it very costly and time > consuming to create a new Forge of Power (at about a thousand years > per Forge each), but it would be possible. Actually, I suspect that Dwarves > are more likely to make new Forges of Power than to make Rockships. Sounds plausible but IMHO it's to slow to explain the relatively fast dwarven colonization... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:29:06 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power In a message dated 1998-07-29 14:09:47 Eastern Daylight Time, JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes: > Sounds plausible but IMHO it's to slow to explain the relatively fast > dwarven colonization... Actually I saw something in the Hollow World timeline that would seem to confirm my theory: BC 1800: Kagyar reshapes dwarven race into its present form. AC 200: Rockhome dwarves begin colonizing into outside lands. By my theory that gap of 2000 years would have given the Dwarves time to quadruple their original allotment of Forges of Power -- or even more than that if the requirement to destroy the Dwarven Lens as part of the creation process is dropped. The creation of the first derivative Forge of Power would have taken 900-1100 years, but if the Dwarven Lens is not destroyed in the process then that original Forge could continue turning out more Forges of Power at the rate of one per century. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:40:09 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >Brannart probably killed his father and became prince of Klantyre sometime >between 960-980 AC. I'd say 980, myself, since it gives some irony to it all >(Brannart's father brought his son in, and promptly got killed by him). >I like the idea of the gate collapsing because of Brannart's plot to >kill his father.... The similarities between Klantyre and Forlorn in Ravenloft are just stunning, IMO. For those who dont know, the history of Forlorn can be summed up as... Land of Forfar is owned by Tristen ApBlanc. Tristen takes wife, has kids. Tristen is, of course, evil and cursed. Wife and kids all eventually die, become ghosts who haunt Tristens castle. Tristen in fact killed his kids personally (if somewhat accidentally). Tristens land ends up in Ravenloft. Tristen is now trapped in Ravenloft, haunted by all the ghosts of those he's killed. (There is more cool detail, of course - but thats digressing) Swap Ravenloft for Mystara and Forfar for Laterre, and there you have it... Suppose Brannart did some unspeakable act of treachery to get Klantyre into Mystara, and is now cursed as a result of it. (Continuing the Ravenloft analogy, according to G:KoM everyone in Brannarts relatives who has died since coming to Mystara have become ghosts, typically haunting Crownguard.) Brannart is dodgy enough to be a Darklord, after all. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:11:32 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello (from an Author) In a message dated 98-07-27 22:08:21 EDT, you write: << Back in 1981-85 I wrote the D&D boxed sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortals) with a framework for a campaign world. However, I did NOTHING for the development of that campaign, being too busy with other projects. So don't ask me about Mystara itself... ;> >> I have to ask... what exactly did you have in mind when you put that wonderful world map in the Master DM book? Did you have ideas for any of the areas listed (especially the Empire of Dorfin VI)? Also why exactly was the Empire of Thyatis depicted with such a large area on the map? I assume your original reasons were somewhat different from what Bruce came up with and used in the Princess Ark series. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:59:58 +0300 From: hihama@uta.fi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities > >896: Etienne d'Ambreville confirmed as Prince of Nouvelle Averoigne. Castle Amber disappears. > > This is the wierd thing, that means Etienne's only been around as a > Prince for about twenty years, but is refered to as the most > powerful, is the Grand Master of the School etc. How had the power > that he has now back in 979? > I find this also very weird. I can't believe even Etienne being immortal that he could get so much power in mere 20 years he had in AC 1000. He must have been prince longer before Castle Ambers disappearance in 896. I stick to my earlier hypothesis that he becomes prince almost immediately after Great School was opened in 875. Also GAZ3 they say that the principality of Erewan was last principality created in 884. So if we believe that Nouvelle Averoigne must have been created before. > From an illustration in G:KoM, we can conclude that Alexander Glantri > was about 35-40 years old when he defeated Halzunthram. That would > place his death in approximately 860 AC. However, since the Light of > Rad happened in 858 AC, and Alexander Glantri was apparently a > fighter, I'd say he died just before 858 AC, and his death allowed > wizards to declare their rule without obstacles. It is ironic that the > greatest hero of Glantri was a lowly fighter :) I think he must have died earlier so that his reputation hade grown after his death so must that the wizards couldn't anymore tarnish it. If he dies somewhere 830s or 840s there would already be places named after him like Glantri city. If he had lived to 858 I think the wizards wuold have discredited him and made him responsible for some bad decisions during last years. I hope you catch what I mean. > About Ethengarians in Glantri. Jherek is (was) the fourth ruler of > Krondahar. He was 44 in 1000 AC, having ruled perhaps 15 years. > Counting off three more generations, and allowing for some magically > extended lifespans, we get the rise of the first Virayana at > approximately 900 AC. This meshes well with the timeline event of 898 > AC, when "a wave of immigrants enters Glantri and racial tensions > ease" (G:KoM). I think that we cannot count ethengarians generations so easily. They have known to take many wives so they also might have lot of children. Next prince might have been some of younger childen made when father is somewhere over 70 for instance. I think that in that way we can easily stretch first prince in 858. > Okay, how about the following timeline: > > 728: The D'Ambrevilles arrive in Glantri. > 743: Crownguard and its leader Brannart (not the same as the present one) > enter Glantri. Ambrevilles bring in more followers. > 896: Etienne d'Ambreville confirmed as Prince of Nouvelle Averoigne. Castle > Amber disappears. > 979: Adventurers rescue Etienne. He brings Genevieve de Sephora and her > tower Sylaire to Glantri. Malachie du Marais enters Glantri as well. > 980: House Crownguard uses the Ambrevilles' gate to bring in the younger > family members (including Duncan McGregor); the gate collapses. > > Brannart probably killed his father and became prince of Klantyre sometime > between 960-980 AC. I'd say 980, myself, since it gives some irony to it all > (Brannart's father brought his son in, and promptly got killed by him). That might be. Brannart, prince of Klantyre in 980 is reclusive lich who never leaves his tower. So when new arrivals come to Glantri that year, their leader, also Brannart McGregor, son of first Brannart, is already lich and uses his powers to replace ruling Brannart and assume his position as prince and no one outside family circles realises anything... Harri Mäki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #545 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, July 30 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 546 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:01:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >> >896: Etienne d'Ambreville confirmed as Prince of Nouvelle Averoigne. Castle Amber disappears. >> >> This is the wierd thing, that means Etienne's only been around as a >> Prince for about twenty years, but is refered to as the most >> powerful, is the Grand Master of the School etc. How had the power >> that he has now back in 979? >> >I find this also very weird. I can't believe even Etienne being immortal >that he could get so much power in mere 20 years he had in AC 1000. He >must have been prince longer before Castle Ambers disappearance in 896. >I stick to my earlier hypothesis that he becomes prince almost >immediately after Great School was opened in 875. That would make sense, also as the founder of the School and it's first master, he would be incredibaly influential...and a bit of a legend by the time he came back.... >Also GAZ3 they say that the principality of Erewan was last >principality created in 884. So if we believe that Nouvelle Averoigne >must have been created before. Agreed. >> From an illustration in G:KoM, we can conclude that Alexander Glantri > was about 35-40 years old when he defeated Halzunthram. That would >> place his death in approximately 860 AC. However, since the Light of >> Rad happened in 858 AC, and Alexander Glantri was apparently a >> fighter, I'd say he died just before 858 AC, and his death allowed >> wizards to declare their rule without obstacles. It is ironic that the > greatest hero of Glantri was a lowly fighter :) > >I think he must have died earlier so that his reputation hade grown >after his death so must that the wizards couldn't anymore tarnish it. If >he dies somewhere 830s or 840s there would already be places named after >him like Glantri city. If he had lived to 858 I think the wizards wuold >have discredited him and made him responsible for some bad decisions >during last years. I hope you catch what I mean. Yup, once the people have used Glantri's name to assert their independance of the alphatians, there's no way the wizards can throw him aside as a measly warrior. So he's still honored with little being mentioned about the fact he was a mundaner. >That might be. Brannart, prince of Klantyre in 980 is reclusive lich who >never leaves his tower. So when new arrivals come to Glantri that year, >their leader, also Brannart McGregor, son of first Brannart, is already >lich and uses his powers to replace ruling Brannart and assume his >position as prince and no one outside family circles realises >anything... Hmmm, I like that (although I prefer him to become a lich when he comes through), but there's no reason anyone need know there was a change...perhaps Brannarts son is thinking the same thing... gordon PS. Is it just me or has this list gone *really* quiet? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:28:40 +0300 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies - -Bad spelling alert!!!- Hello fellow Mystarans. I just caught up on all the posts of the last two weeks, and a certain thing has trubled me. Does anything had to do with the real world? I mean whats with the obssesive maching of every country or event to a real life source? We have the Thyatis=Rome/Byzantium, Hule=Authoman empire, and to top things off- NACE=USA!! IMHO this ruins the fantasy feel of mystara. Mystaran cultures suold be (maybe) inspired by RW cultures but IMO this should end there. No anlogies to exact countries or historical events or political proceses. I think people are forgeting were dealing with fantasy here. Mystara is not earth. Mystara is magical, Mystara is wild- hell, its hollow!! comments? Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:33:52 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies Hi mystarans ... - ---------- > From: ŕéěď ůçí > To: 'mystara-l@mpgn.com' > Subject: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 2:28 PM > > -Bad spelling alert!!!- > Hello fellow Mystarans. > I just caught up on all the posts of the last two weeks, and a certain thing has trubled me. > Does anything had to do with the real world? > I mean whats with the obssesive maching of every country or event to a real life source? > We have the Thyatis=Rome/Byzantium, Hule=Authoman empire, and to top things off- NACE=USA!! > IMHO this ruins the fantasy feel of mystara. Mystaran cultures suold be (maybe) inspired by RW cultures but IMO this should end there. No anlogies to exact countries or historical events or political proceses. > I think people are forgeting were dealing with fantasy here. > Mystara is not earth. Mystara is magical, Mystara is wild- hell, its hollow!! > comments? Sure such things looks like our world ('nd i dislike that to be polite) but who's the DM ? U not the books so u're allow to change it ... but if it's truly as Earth, don't invade CCCP as no one managed to ... Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ŕ mag@mel.teamlog.fr http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:46:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies > I mean whats with the obssesive maching of every country or event to a > real life source? We have the Thyatis=Rome/Byzantium, Hule=Authoman > empire, and to top things off- NACE=USA!! IMHO this ruins the fantasy > feel of mystara. Mystaran cultures suold be (maybe) inspired by RW > cultures but IMO this should end there. No anlogies to exact countries > or historical events or political proceses. I think people are forgeting > were dealing with fantasy here. Mystara is not earth. Mystara is > magical, Mystara is wild- hell, its hollow!! comments? I agree with you that a)many Mystaran cultures should be based on RW ones and b)that they should not be mirror images of the RW cultures. I don't think anyone is trying to pass off any of the Mystara nations as clones of historical or modern ones from Earth. Thyatis is based on Byzantine culture, but Byzantium obviously didn't have powerful wizards assisting the king, a justice system written by a disguised Immortal or a major enemy which is a magocracy. Things like Foresters, Rakes, the relationship with karameikos and Ylaurum, arabic, asian and black citizens - -- all of these probably didn't exist in RW Byzantium but are part of what gives Thyatis its unique flavor. When I just did the Jennite HWR, I made sure to do research on the Scythians and got lots of interesting ideas from there. By no means though did I wish to duplicate that culture - I used it as a starting point and anchor. This seems to be the typical TSR strategy for Mystara, to base it on a real culture but change it enough that it has an distinctive flavor. And of course, not every Mystara setting is based on the real world - many such as the Malpheggi or Norworld are entirely fantastical inventions. The whole problem with news on television comes down to this: all the words uttered in an hour of news coverage could be printed on one page of a newspaper. And the world cannot be understood in one page -- media critic Neil Postman and TV journalist Steve Powers *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:30:55 +0300 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities >>Actually, how about time didn't pass at all quickly on Laterre, so that when the gate closed Brannarts Father had just left. During his time on Glantri he discoverred necromancy and eventually the Radiance. Using this he lived as undead. When the gate was reopened Brannart was appaled by what had happened to his father and killed him by destroying the gate when his father was passing through. >> >>Stuck in Glantri he took up the burden of leadership before eventually succuming himself to the evils of necromancy? Maybe? Maybe not? gordon>> Thats one of the best ideas Ive ever heard! it goes great with the dark feel of house crownguard. Question- is Laterre sopposed to be real earth or somewhere very similar? Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:51:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies > > -Bad spelling alert!!!- > Hello fellow Mystarans. > I just caught up on all the posts of the last two weeks, and a certain thing has trubled me. > Does anything had to do with the real world? > I donno, but it's an ancient Mystaran tradition, it seems: most (not all) of the Savage Coast states have "RL" counterparts, and it's obvious where places like Ylaruam, Vestland, and Ethengar got their inspiration (Arab/Moslem, Scandanavia, and Mongolia/Turkestan). Traldara/Karameikos has a Slavic feel to it, Heldan is the Baltic area where Knightly orders took over, and I'd argue that Darokin is the USA during the "Gilded Age". Ierendi is the "Fantasy Island/Love Boat" night (Hmmmn. . . .IIRC, the Ierendi Gazeteer came out when thouse shows were still on). Perhaps that's why Glantri is considered special by a lot of folks: some of the Principalities (most, actually) have RL counterparts, but Glantri as a whole is rather unique, with no obvious RL analogy. Alfheim was your typical "fairyland", not really diferentiable between similar elfholds in other campaign worlds and games, same with Rockhome re. your standard Dwarven nation. Anyhow, the world is fine even with these analogies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:00:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities >Thats one of the best ideas Ive ever heard! Thanks :) I like evil characters who had good motivations to start with :) >it goes great with the dark feel of house crownguard. >Question- is Laterre sopposed to be real earth or somewhere very similar? Real earth, but with a bit of magic... Hmm, now I'm wondering from where in Scotland did the McGregors come, and when in our time....hmm.... (Anyone seen the Disney cartoon Gargoyles? Some very cool medieval scotland with magic stuff in that...) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:28:32 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies In a message dated 98-07-30 12:04:28 EDT, you write: << Alfheim was your typical "fairyland", not really diferentiable between similar elfholds in other campaign worlds and games, same with Rockhome re. your standard Dwarven nation. Anyhow, the world is fine even with these analogies. >> While "standard," I thought both of these Gaz's did a good job of expanding the races/classes. All the different clans gave both of them a sense of a nation of individuals, not just "Mark -1, Mod -0 Elf." These were two of my favorites and both made me want to play a character or run a campaign based there, something which I couldn't say about all the Gaz's . . . Autruagin Clans??? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:51:28 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies ><< Alfheim was your typical "fairyland", not really diferentiable between > similar elfholds in other campaign worlds and games, same with Rockhome re. > your standard Dwarven nation. Anyhow, the world is fine even with these > analogies. Ye gods, I have to disagree about Alfheim. I think Alfheim is the only elven realm (certainly in AD+D) that really stands out as elven (rather than being populated by humans with pointy ears). The elven way of life described in Alfheim, and the whole way the place is run, is utterly alien to any human society (its an anarchy, basically). Compare it to the other AD+D elven settings. Qualinesti and Silvanesti may as well be human towns (pointy ears syndrome). The Kagonesti bear a resemblence to the wild Alfheimers (Clan Grunalf and Clan Long Runner), but only on the surface. Evermeet IMO is pointy ear syndrome again, but with fairies and stuff tacked on, seemingly as an afterthought. They certainly have a very human style government, anyway, and human style religion. As I know nothing about Greyhawk, I wont comment... Concerning Rockhome - I have less interest in dwarves, so I concede your point (I guess Thorbardin is very similar to Rockhome). But I think that even here the Mystaran demihuman "Clan" gives Mystaran demihumans a unique (and most importantly, non human) character which other campaigns definitely do not have. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:48:44 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies > > While "standard," I thought both of these Gaz's did a good job of expanding > the races/classes. > Oh, I wasn't even being critical of the Gaz's in general (although, based on use, I guess I'd have to rank Northern Reaches fairly low, since I almost never refer to it anymore); they all tend to add uniqueness and flavor to even a "standard" cultural area. I guess that's why I like the HW Gaz's so much: though all three are based heavily on RL civilizations, they all add a wealth of detail and "twists" to "standard" fare. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:55:57 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Just a little something inspired by the debate currently going on about how Mystaran nations are based on RW nations... I noticed that the Mystaran land mass as drawn in the Master rulebooks looks somewhat similar to ancient Pangaea before continental drift... Was this intentional? Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:08:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies ><< Alfheim was your typical "fairyland", not really diferentiable between > similar elfholds in other campaign worlds and games, same with Rockhome re. > your standard Dwarven nation. Anyhow, the world is fine even with these > analogies. > >> > >While "standard," I thought both of these Gaz's did a good job of expanding >the races/classes. All the different clans gave both of them a sense of a >nation of individuals, not just "Mark -1, Mod -0 Elf." These were two of my >favorites and both made me want to play a character or run a campaign based >there, something which I couldn't say about all the Gaz's . . . Autruagin >Clans??? I think it was OK for the various demi-human realms to be "standard" since Mystara started off as a very generic world (still is in some ways). So I don't mind Karameikos being a very generic Kingdom (in fact it's a lot of fun), or Ylaruam being a typical Arabian Nights setting. I did feel though that teh Atruaghin Clans really just didn't fit in with the rest of the setting, same with the Ethengarians (I think someone else had this view as well). As much as I really like the Mongols (as a story element, I wouldn't like to hang around them :) ) I wasn't greatly impressed by the Gazetteer, nor with the Atruaghin Clans. I dunno, maybe it's just because they were *too* similar to their respective RW cultures, maybe not. gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:15:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer >Just a little something inspired by the debate currently going on about how >Mystaran nations are based on RW nations... > >I noticed that the Mystaran land mass as drawn in the Master rulebooks looks >somewhat similar to ancient Pangaea before continental drift... Was this >intentional? If only we had the person who wrote the Master book on the list..... :) So, was this always planned or was it just when the companion set was written and the known world was tacked onto the bottom? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:15:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies >Oh, I wasn't even being critical of the Gaz's in general (although, based >on use, I guess I'd have to rank Northern Reaches fairly low, since I >almost never refer to it anymore); they all tend to add uniqueness and >flavor to even a "standard" cultural area. Hmm, I think I use the Ierendi the least, not having any of the Companion or Masters modules I think I'll adapt a lot of Gaz7 for Norwold when my players eventually get involved with things up there.... >I guess that's why I like the HW Gaz's so much: though all three are based >heavily on RL civilizations, they all add a wealth of detail and "twists" >to "standard" fare. Yeah, those things that make a culture Mystara rather than anything else. (Al-Quadim is an arabic setting, but Ylauruam is *Mystar* :) ) Atruaghin never did it for me here though...it needed more twsts! :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:19:36 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Yes. It is even so stated in the gold boxed Immortals set. Mystara was originally Earth many eons ago... Rob wrote: > Just a little something inspired by the debate currently going on about how > Mystaran nations are based on RW nations... > > I noticed that the Mystaran land mass as drawn in the Master rulebooks looks > somewhat similar to ancient Pangaea before continental drift... Was this > intentional? > > Cheerz > > ROB > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:37:26 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. Since we're discussing RW analogies and anachronisms today, and since I haven't a lot of time lately but want to contribute to the list, here's a little essay that originally went to another discussion, having to do with the "flavor" of Mystara and whether it is a "midieval" (or "renaissance") seting, or whether modern conceptions dominate thought (especially in the fields political & international relations). Anyhow, some thoughts on what Mystara is and what it should be may be interesting (I.E. should modern state theory & international practice dominate, or should a more "rough and ready" midieval concept of soverignity and international relations prevail?). Anyhow, I'm using only my own words. This particular essay was in response to a point regarding "to annex, or not to annex" and things like "buffer zones" and "demilitarized areas", which are (especially the latter) modern concepts (actually, I was the one in favor of them, so you can see that my thoughts are the product of a thouroughly disordered mind.) Midieval states evolved (and devolved) like pond life: things getting swallowed up, then effectively breaking away in a kalidiscopic fashion (Midieval France is a prime example, along with Midieval Germany & Italy), But you don't really see that in Mystara (borders are, in the outer world, very hard, modern borders. In the HW things are different, since at least there really are no borders, just "zones" where the various cultures wax and wane). This fact alone makes the OW a very "modern" place (nations have established borders, and they are considered inviolable, which is a concept that probably only developed in the last 100 years, if not just the last 50, IRL). The MML, too, exemplifies this: "agression" and "agressive" states are frowned upon severely. Again, a very modern view: in the Midieval world, nations (and fiefs) were constantly scheming to grab what the other guy had in order to increase their power, and for the bigger powers (France, Germany, S. Italy [under a variety of names], etc.) hardly a year went by without at least a raid on some border area (either initiated, or defended against). Warfare could best be described as "endemic". The idea that the "normal" (usual) state of affairs is a peaceful border is hypermodern, along with the idea of firm borders themselves. I'm probably not saying anything that folks don't already know, but I think that this all gets forgotten in the context of Mystara. The question then becomes is Mystara a "Midieval" (or Renaissance, which for "land grab" purposes makes no real difference: note also that the Renaissance period saw the rise of real nations and the passing away of the old "petty state" {oh: the "petty state" remark refers to the KW being horribly congested with them} concept, at least in areas that hoped to be "players": places that failed to make this transition [Italy, Germany except Austria] became pawns in the struggle for dominion {"Hegemony"} bettween real states {"nation states"}). Where was I? Oh, yes: so the question then is what "flavor" Mystara will have: is it a effectively "modern" world with fixed borders, where "peace" is considered the normal state of affairs and war an abnormality, and where agression & border warfair is considered "bad form", or is it a Midieval/Renaissance place with fluid borders and endemic raiding/warfair? NACE is a modern nation-state (well, not a "nation state", I guess, since it's the EU, but with only one nationality rather than a dozen). Just an interesting adendum to the "Midieval or Modern" essay. The below, from a related discussion, might also be of interest (or not): See, we're in the sphere of politics and international relations here. Things aren't always done for rational reasons (hmpf, or even usually, I'd argue). Things are often done for Thucydiean reasons (pride, fear, and jelousy). All events have a reason, but not all events will be based on a rational calculace, and determinations of "cost/benifit analysis". Even relatively worthless areas IRL are held onto for no real good reason (I.E. Portugese Macao) for the longest time. Eusebius may be smarter than all that, but he *does* recognize the role that prestege plays in international affairs (I.E. if people believe you are recovering and becoming stronger, then in a certain sense you *are* becoming stronger, even if you have fewer troops and control less area: I.E. the "intangible" eliments of power are often more important than "tangible" ones such as how many 36th level mages you have and the number of artifacts in your grasping hands). Perception, in international affairs, often *is* reality. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:10:13 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright Didn't seem to come through the first time, so I'm resending it. >This is an announcement of the Savage Coast campaign now converted to >Birthright rules. Some of you are already familiar with my Mystaran >Birthright conversion. The SC conversion can be found at my website (see my >sig below), just go to Mystaran Birthright page. For the uninitiated, the >Savage Coast was originally introduced by Bruce Heard in his "Voyage of the >Princess Ark" articles in Dragon magazine. It was later converted to AD&D in >Red Steel boxed set, and is now available for free download at >ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/SavageCoast (or something like that). > >A new Savage Coast Birthright PBEM (which I'm *not* DMing) will be starting >soon, so anyone wishing to play in it should download the conversion info >and the SC materials. Where else can you play a dog-man, a spider-creature >able to polymorph into humanoid form, a manscorpion, a gator-man, a winged >minotaur, or an ogre-kin? > ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:07:01 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >I find this also very weird. I can't believe even Etienne being immortal >that he could get so much power in mere 20 years he had in AC 1000. He And why not? People have risen to power in shorter time. Remember that Etienne is easily the most powerful archmage of Glantri and perhaps the Known World, and most princes acknowledge that (if grudgingly). They may have voted him to Grand Master's position just to show the rest of the world how mighty Glantri is. >must have been prince longer before Castle Ambers disappearance in 896. >I stick to my earlier hypothesis that he becomes prince almost >immediately after Great School was opened in 875. Perhaps he was just a viscount until 896, and was awarded a princely title in 896. >Also GAZ3 they say that the principality of Erewan was last >principality created in 884. So if we believe that Nouvelle Averoigne >must have been created before. > Where does it say that? I didn't find it. In any case, GAZ3 also says that "at the time of their separation from the House of Alhambra, Princess Carlotina became Chamberlain of the Land". This automatically pushes Erewan's secession to the 900s, because Carlotina wasn't born until 911 AC. >I think he must have died earlier so that his reputation hade grown >after his death so must that the wizards couldn't anymore tarnish it. If >he dies somewhere 830s or 840s there would already be places named after >him like Glantri city. If he had lived to 858 I think the wizards wuold >have discredited him and made him responsible for some bad decisions >during last years. I hope you catch what I mean. > Yes, that's also possible. Though I don't think AG was discredited since they still celebrate a holiday in his honor. >I think that we cannot count ethengarians generations so easily. They >have known to take many wives so they also might have lot of children. >Next prince might have been some of younger childen made when father is >somewhere over 70 for instance. I think that in that way we can easily >stretch first prince in 858. > Yes, it could be, though it would mean that the youngest son of *each* generation always became the next Prince. I think 900 AC works better because of the new settlers and easing of the racial tensions; creation of Erewan can be pushed to a later date (940-950 AC). I know it's not quite canon, but it clears the contradictions well. Just assume that some historians made a mistake and Erewan was created "half a century ago", rather than "a century ago". >That might be. Brannart, prince of Klantyre in 980 is reclusive lich who >never leaves his tower. So when new arrivals come to Glantri that year, >their leader, also Brannart McGregor, son of first Brannart, is already >lich and uses his powers to replace ruling Brannart and assume his >position as prince and no one outside family circles realises >anything... > I don't think the modern Brannart was the son of the original one (more likely a descendant). I also don't think that Brannart's father was a lich, since Crownguard doesn't seem to be specifically interested in that (remember, Brannart became a lich through the use of the Radiance, and wasn't interested in necromancy before that). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:36:05 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power At 00.09 29/07/98 +0200, Hĺvard Rřnne Faanes wrote: >On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: >> Soul crystals does not contain souls so I would say no to it. Fabrizio >> might say more about this. Even if working a dwarf using a soul crystal >> wouldn't be happy with that as the SE would chase him for heresy. I agree with Jamuga that soul crystals do not contain real souls, but shadow elves don't know that. They do believe that soul crystals contain the souls of the future generation of shadow elves, thus they would never tell to a dwarf about the true nature (well, what they believe is the true nature) of those crystals. >I know. Then again..what if Rafiel is lying to his Shamans? Maybe the >things do contain souls? OTOH, there could be other reasons why this would >work for the dwarves. And this would create more tension between the SEs >and the Dwarves. Which is cool :) IMC (before WotI and thus before the war for Oenkmar) there's not tension between SE and dwarves. Basically, both believe that the others are stupid. SE thinks that dwarves are stupid because they like gems and gold more than the soul crystal, viceversa dwarves thinks that SE are fools because they like those worthless crystal better than gems and precious metals. Also, dwarves dislike SE because they're elves, but OTOH they're very different from surface elves, they live underground, know how to dig tunnels and mines, and don't look so merry as the Alfheim ones. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:27:44 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright At 07:10 PM 7/30/98 +0300, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >Didn't seem to come through the first time, so I'm resending it. > >>It was later converted to AD&D inRed Steel boxed set, and is now available >>for free download at >>ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/SavageCoast (or something like that). >> >>A new Savage Coast Birthright PBEM (which I'm *not* DMing) will be starting >>soon, so anyone wishing to play in it should download the conversion info >>and the SC materials. Where else can you play a dog-man, a spider-creature >>able to polymorph into humanoid form, a manscorpion, a gator-man, a winged >>minotaur, or an ogre-kin? >> I wouldn't mind playing in such a PBEM, but as I visit that particular sight, I am wondering, which one is the conversion info, in that particular group of files is the SC/Birthright conversion? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #546 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 31 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 547 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany [MYSTARA] - Constructive spelluse Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. [MYSTARA] - Stuff to ponder (WAS: On Demi-Human Relics) Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplom Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:20:19 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics (Prefatory note: In my first descriptions of these majestic items, sources of not merely the power but also the very spirits of the demi-human races, I tried to emulate the fabled artifacts scattered throughout our human history [upon which I elaborate in a later work, of course]. It is quite satisfying to see that they have apparently retained the epic nature that I intended. Now onward to specific comments...) somebody@somewhere wrote: > By the way. A friend of mine had an idea. To make magical items a dwarf must sacrifice XP. This could mean that he sacrifices part of his soul. Imho, not so. The sacrifice of XP has no analog in our realworld that I can think of, save perhaps a variety of temporary amnesia. In the appropriate context, this 'sacrifice' is merely a description of the applicable game mechanic governing the transaction, as it were. So what is it from the dwarven perspective? The act of imbuing ones self into a creation -- much as an artist puts part of himself or herself into a work of art. But in the game setting, this dedication, this devotion, translates magically into actual, real, usable magical Power... an Item. Puts things in a little better light than the slam-bam impersonal and mechanistic approach of AD&D procedures (cast these spells on these things and presto), doesn't it? Kaviyd wrote: > I would assume that there must be some method for creating a new Forge of Power from an old one, but that the process must be a long and difficult one. To keep things simple, I would use the same method as is given in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia for making a Rockship -- but (optionally) add as a last step that the Dwarven Lens must be shattered and its shards fed into the Forge of Power to activate it. This would make it very costly and time consuming to create a new Forge of Power (at about a thousand years per Forge each), but it would be possible.>> Poppycock, straining at gnats. Ack! And sputter, cough, and gag. You mean nobody at TSR ever came up with the Official Method of making a new Forge, even now (15 years after I made the first one, you might say)? Say it ain't so. Please. Quote a reference if you do... lest I be tempted to Reveal All in this regard. (Although I Am Not Worthy, either.) Brizio opined: >BTW: I forgot to say that IMO the fleeing Alfheim elves managed to magically conceal the ToL that they left in Canolbarth. That sounds workable -- far more so than the plot to uproot one -- tho the technique of taking a cutting and growing a new Tree (an act which of necessity causes the death of its parent, btw) would also be involved. But a Tree -- or a Forge, or a Crucible -- has Power. It can surprise you. I do not know whether this was ever brought out in adventures or supplements issued after my departure, but in my original design, there was a secret regarding the demi-human Relics. Do you think that without the Keepers, the Relics would become dormant, useless things? Bah. Relics are alive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:20:25 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities Magesmiley wrote: > I have to ask... what exactly did you have in mind when you put that wonderful world map in the Master DM book? Did you have ideas for any of the areas listed (especially the Empire of Dorfin VI)? Also why exactly was the Empire of Thyatis depicted with such a large area on the map? I assume your original reasons were somewhat different from what Bruce came up with and used in the Princess Ark series. and then RMunch echoed: > the Mystaran land mass as drawn in the Master rulebooks looks somewhat similar to ancient Pangaea before continental drift... Was this intentional? while Gordon mourned disingenuously: >If only we had the person who wrote the Master book on the list..... only to be counterpunched by JDaly with: >Yes. It is even so stated in the gold boxed Immortals set. Mystara was originally Earth many eons ago... Bruce Heard did an excellent job in coordinating the development of the Mystaran campaign. That said, know also that Bruce and I have had many serious differences, and we do not correspond. I shall not comment on any of his work, since I am less than comprehensively familiar with it and his motives. So what did I have in mind originally, for the first-ever campaign maps? Quite a bit, but very little of it was listened to by the developers. You see, every designer seems to love his own designs best... and those of less than the highest professionality (here I do NOT refer to Bruce) may choose, if permitted, to ignore previous plans in favor of new ideas. I must admit that it was discouraging when those who continued the path of Mystara did not bother to even ask what was intended or planned. I don't know that anyone even read my files on the subject that were left at TSR after my departure. To your questions: The realm of Thyatis was approximated on that map; it changed quite a bit as more detailed developments took place. As has been elsewhere alleged, the World is indeed proto-Pangaen, and the time is indeed eons before our present. There is one additional smidgen of source material that explains (rather fully indeed in concept if not the specific magical processes) the passing of Mystara and its link to our present. Read the short story LOST LEGAGY by Robert A. Heinlein. JRuhlconob wrote: > Perhaps that's why Glantri is considered special by a lot of folks: some of the Principalities (most, actually) have RL counterparts, but Glantri as a whole is rather unique, with no obvious RL analogy. Quite so. Please note that in design terms, Glantri was born before the changes occurred at TSR. There may be a corrolation. JRuhlconob also wrote upon: > the "flavor" of Mystara and whether it is a "midieval" (or "renaissance") seting, or whether modern conceptions dominate thought (especially in the fields political & international relations). We all mix our realworld modernist beliefs and habits with the imaginary realm of Mystara. Sometimes it helps a great deal to put things in terms with which we are comfortable. otoh, sometimes (as you correctly point out, James) the concepts themselves did not evolve for us until fairly recently. But who is to say when they evolve for Mystarans? The process of deciding what concepts would naturally occur to residents of Mystara is a slippery one indeed, and one which may have no firm answer. It lies, of course and as usual, in the purview of the game master. Some of us prefer a style that strains to ever avoid realworld things; some simply don't care. None should brand either preference as Wrong. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:20:40 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Finally, other miscellany to conclude this tripartite missive (as Gary would say): BCourtemanch effused: > My friends and I refer to the early and mid 80's as our "golden age" of gaming Thus it was for many, friend. It is no accident that I walked away from TSR in 1986, just as the darkness was closing in... but after I repeatedly tried (but failed) to keep the game on the path that had been laid out for it. Greetings and good gaming to you as well, and thanks for the kind words. Hoc wrote (regarding the onset of TSR's Dark Years): > Sorry to hear about those intrigues. I hope that is a thing of the past. I believe so. :) Y'see, I've known the boss of WotC for quite a while -- since HE had to stand in line to see ME, instead of the other way around. ::blush:: (Hi Peter; hope that gives you a chuckle.) And unlike the last boss, he's a gamer. Really... and still. A year ago I was telling people to hang onto their hats and watch what happens -- for the better. This year I'm in "I told ya so" mode, and there's a lot more to come. Ohadshm ranted: > I mean whats with the obssesive maching of every country or event to a real life source? In the Dark Years, TSR was obviously overrun by Spenglerians. Cyclical history is tidy, but really now... and RMunch sniped: >Swap Ravenloft for Mystara and Forfar for Laterre, and there you have it... Those who can, write. Those who cannot, borrow. - -- Frank Mentzer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:26:56 +1000 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany > I believe so. :) Y'see, I've known the boss of WotC for quite a while -- > since HE had to stand in line to see ME, instead of the other way around. > ::blush:: (Hi Peter; hope that gives you a chuckle.) And unlike the last > boss, he's a gamer. Really... and still. A year ago I was telling people to > hang onto their hats and watch what happens -- for the better. This year I'm > in "I told ya so" mode, and there's a lot more to come. Not to whinge, but unless it's a re-release of D&D I won't be holding my breath. It might be good that the company as a whole is looking up but the devil is in the details. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:52:00 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics > Brizio opined: > >BTW: I forgot to say that IMO the fleeing Alfheim elves managed to > magically conceal the ToL that they left in Canolbarth. > > That sounds workable -- far more so than the plot to uproot one -- tho the > technique of taking a cutting and growing a new Tree (an act which of > necessity causes the death of its parent, btw) would also be involved. > But a Tree -- or a Forge, or a Crucible -- has Power. It can surprise > you. > I do not know whether this was ever brought out in adventures or > supplements issued after my departure, but in my original design, there was a > secret regarding the demi-human Relics. Do you think that without the > Keepers, the Relics would become dormant, useless things? Bah. > Relics are alive. Hi all ... i'm just a recent member of the list and i don't get all rules about Relics. These are my point of view of the Relic mysteries : I think Relics are linked to the clan among which it lives. It meens that it gets its own life from the presence of the demi-human wich it is linked to. Without them, it's power diminish as the time pass, and after long period they die. It's how they live IMO. Their nature is third magic, third physical, third spiritual IMO. This explains why they're created from magic, seem to be real (unlike ghost for exemple ...) and feed from presence of some livings. Is there a mistake somewhere ? Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ŕ mag@mel.teamlog.fr http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:22:49 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics ExTSR@aol.com wrote: By the way, welcome to the list! I am still a strong defender of the old Gold Box Immortals set...even though we are a dwindling number.... > That sounds workable -- far more so than the plot to uproot one -- tho the > technique of taking a cutting and growing a new Tree (an act which of > necessity causes the death of its parent, btw) would also be involved. Well, there was the module CM6 "Where Chaos Reigns" which does have the origins of both Trees of Life and Forges of Power--but for another world. In the module, the trees are given to the elves as presents from treants. The dwarves get their forges from a "hephaeston"...a huge iron-skinned giant. But like I say, this is detailed "safely" on another world... > But a Tree -- or a Forge, or a Crucible -- has Power. It can surprise > you. > I do not know whether this was ever brought out in adventures or > supplements issued after my departure, but in my original design, there was a > secret regarding the demi-human Relics. Do you think that without the > Keepers, the Relics would become dormant, useless things? Bah. > Relics are alive. Tell us more! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:00:26 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics In a message dated 98-07-31 01:24:26 EDT, you write: << Poppycock, straining at gnats. Ack! And sputter, cough, and gag. You mean nobody at TSR ever came up with the Official Method of making a new Forge, even now (15 years after I made the first one, you might say)? Say it ain't so. Please. Quote a reference if you do... lest I be tempted to Reveal All in this regard. (Although I Am Not Worthy, either.) >> Nope they never did. The Tree of Life was covered in the Alfheim gazeteer and the Blackflame in the Five Shires Gazeteer, but the forge never got covered per se. There were some rules in the Rockhome gazeteer about dwarves being able to make magic items by sacrificing some of their xps (putting some of themselves into the artifact), but no rules layed out for creating new forges of power. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:41:26 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >(remember, Brannart became a lich through the use of the Radiance, and >wasn't interested in necromancy before that). > Funny thing that a 4th circle Necromancer had no interest until after lichdom. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Frank Mentzer (praises be!) said > >> I believe so. :) Y'see, I've known the boss of WotC for quite a while -- >> since HE had to stand in line to see ME, instead of the other way around. >> ::blush:: (Hi Peter; hope that gives you a chuckle.) And unlike the last >> boss, he's a gamer. Really... and still. A year ago I was telling people to >> hang onto their hats and watch what happens -- for the better. This year I'm >> in "I told ya so" mode, and there's a lot more to come. > Shawn said: >Not to whinge, but unless it's a re-release of D&D I won't be holding my >breath. It might be good that the company as a whole is looking up but >the devil is in the details. > First off, hello to Frank Mentzer - just a quick note to say that I, too, am a continuing devotee of the old boxed sets, and of OD&D in general. :-) I am going to have to add my voice to Shawn's in saying that, while it would be good for Mystara to be brought back as a world, to me it's just not the same if it were not D&D. I realize that I am probably in the minority for saying this, but Mystara just isn't the same without it. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:06:55 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Constructive spelluse Someone asked for unusual uses of spells so here`s a go Probably the most useful spell for anymage or cleric has to be the humble con. light. Here`s a few ways that it shines. Firstly on the battlefield in the days leading up to the battle you cast con light on armbands and con dark on arrows. give one of each to your archers. Then at a signal they all fire their dark arrows at enemy effect will be that a Huge wall of darkness will fly at the enemy and their mounts. Major morale checks etc. Secondly get two glass beads and cast one of each on them. During day wear one yourself and put other on purse. If it`s stolen the darkness will reappear when it is out of your light range (unless its within a Lightproof container, in which case it appears when it`s taken out). For nighttime have a second con light which you swap with the con dark on your pouch. The thief now glows like a beacon. BTW mages should really always have a sling with which to launch con light vs foes attacking at night so your fighters can see the attackers. think about it for ONE 3rd level spelcaster with enough time can destroy a perfectly organised military campaign. Also it`s a good way to pay your taxes by offering direct magical aide to the army without the need to be present. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:51:16 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. > Midieval states evolved (and devolved) like pond life: things getting >swallowed up, then effectively breaking away in a kalidiscopic fashion >(Midieval France is a prime example, along with Midieval Germany & Italy), >But you don't really see that in Mystara (borders are, in the outer world, >very hard, modern borders. In the HW things are different, since at least I think that may have something to do with the fact that most OW countries aren't feudal; so the feudal lords don't go raiding neighboring fiefs. Well, Karameikos and Glantri are feudal, but they haven't even settled much of their own territory yet to raid others; Thyatis is also feudal, but that hardly shows anyway. Savage Coast has more of that; the baronies have a feudal society, and the borders changed constantly (just take a look at the timeline); only recently they stabilized in the Treaty of Tampicos. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:36:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: [MYSTARA] - Stuff to ponder (WAS: On Demi-Human Relics) On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 ExTSR@aol.com wrote: > technique of taking a cutting and growing a new Tree (an act which of > necessity causes the death of its parent, btw) would also be involved. Hmm. Then what of Ordana's Great Tree in Evergrun? One other point. Evergrun is NOT at the south pole. As any HW enthusiast knows, Mystara has no physical 'south pole'. In fact, evergrun's actual climate hasn't changed all that much from it's position on th pre-GRoF world map and the map currently used. Evergrun is about as close to the south pole of Mystara as Heldann is to the north pole (tho Evergrun itself is a great deal larger than Heldann :) Another interesting question/point: Where were the OLD entrances to the HW? The boxed set mentions thatthe old ones were sealed, after the GRoF and the new entrances were created at the geographic north and south poles. If the old entrances were at the old geographic north and south, then that would place the original north pole entrance within grasp of Blackmoor itself. Hmm.. makes you think. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 ExTSR@aol.com wrote: > areas listed (especially the Empire of Dorfin VI)? Also why exactly was the Interestingly enough, Dorfin is already disclaimed in the Book of Wonderous inventions. He was a Karameikan Gnome-king :) > fully indeed in concept if not the specific magical processes) the passing of > Mystara and its link to our present. Read the short story LOST LEGAGY by > Robert A. Heinlein. As much as Mystara being proto-earth is an intriguing idea, it always seemed so contrived to me when I read the gold box. I could never picture Mystara (or the Known World as I knew it as back then) being in our solar system, with our planets, etc. etc. It kinda made the game less 'fantastic'. I always prefferred to think that the Beagle (From Arneson's Blackmoor) was from Earth. (Though, now with Benekander described how he was, even that comes into doubt.) Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >>(remember, Brannart became a lich through the use of the Radiance, and >>wasn't interested in necromancy before that). >> >Funny thing that a 4th circle Necromancer had no interest until after >lichdom. Maybe he didn't become a necromancer until he had become a lich? And he became a necromancer to understand what he had become? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Frank Mentzer finished his triple whammy with: >BCourtemanch effused: >> My friends and I refer to the early and mid 80's as our "golden age" of >gaming > >Thus it was for many, friend. It is no accident that I walked away from TSR >in 1986, just as the darkness was closing in... but after I repeatedly tried >(but failed) to keep the game on the path that had been laid out for it. > Greetings and good gaming to you as well, and thanks for the kind words. I must admit, I rekon now is my golden age of gaming simply because I'm enjoying so much the campaign I'm running at the moment :) I don't know about AD&D, but I certainly count some of my favourite D&D books as around the late 80's (specifically Gaz3,10,13,Hollow World)...was the 1986 fiasco just before they released the second edition of AD&D? >Hoc wrote (regarding the onset of TSR's Dark Years): >> Sorry to hear about those intrigues. I hope that is a thing of the past. > >I believe so. :) Excellent, it's a shame to have bad blood running around the industry, does no good for anyone... >Ohadshm ranted: >> I mean whats with the obssesive maching of every country or event to a real >life source? > >In the Dark Years, TSR was obviously overrun by Spenglerians. Cyclical >history is tidy, but really now... What's a spenglerian? (I know, I know, didn't know what a Quisling was (thanks Havard!), don't know what a spenglerian is..I should get out more :) ) >and RMunch sniped: >>Swap Ravenloft for Mystara and Forfar for Laterre, and there you have it... > >Those who can, write. Those who cannot, borrow. I'm one of the ones who cannot, so I prefer to say plagiarise :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplom James wrote (rather than ranting in a screed :) ): > Since we're discussing RW analogies and anachronisms today, and since >I haven't a lot of time lately but want to contribute to the list, here's a >little essay that originally went to another discussion, having to do with >the "flavor" of Mystara and whether it is a "midieval" (or "renaissance") >seting, or whether modern conceptions dominate thought (especially in the >fields political & international relations). I think the more modern thoughts are very prevalent in Mystara, I'm not sure how much fun it would be to play in a very medieval mindest...perhaps it would, but I'm too used to my own modern world view :) I'd agree that the Savage Coast is much more open to the kind of medieval moving of borders etc that was more common in the RW, and again it's worth noting that the cultures of the KW are a lot more varied than they ever were in Europe! You've also got these great big demi-human realms in the middle of all this, and they're about as stable as you can get... At the same time I don't like getting too much into the modern communication age model. Teleportation and crystal balls would change a society radically if they were in prevalent use (such as in Alphatia), and I'm not sure I want things that modern IMC... ramblings, gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > would be good for Mystara to be brought back as a world, to me it's just > not the same if it were not D&D. I realize that I am probably in the > minority for saying this, but Mystara just isn't the same without it. Not as much of a minority as you may think. I'm sure there are OD&D fans out there, tho we are in a majorly dwindiling number. As for Mystara changing under trasformation to AD&D, Geoff is right, the whole feel changes. For example, read Joshuan's almanac, and go back and read some of the Gazetteers. The tone is much more muted in Joshuan. Take 'the Orcs of Thar' for example. That whole Gaz is kind of comical, and you can't ever look at humanoids the same way. "Duh Legion Dies But Surrenders not!" Then read 'The Complete Book of Humanoids' 'nuff said. Kol is a Wokan. Not a 'witch doctor'. Like Glantri would let him retain his princely status if he cast 'Cure light' on anyone.. I guess my point is that Mystara has a very different look and feel about it than AD&D. OD&D is like a macintosh, easy to use, and still powerful, but with a distinct 'look and feel' AD&D is Windows 95. More options than you can possibly ever need, and tough it has a similar feel to a Macintosh, they aren't directly compatible. That compatibility arguement is at the heart of many a debate. IMO, Mystara lost something when AD&D took over. And it wasn't just good writing. In the torrent of 'rules and conformity' Mystara became a stock fantasy world, like Oerth. No longer do the Orcs make you both laugh and feel pity for them. The term 'Hin' seems so out of place. It's just not 'fun' anymore. AD&D added too much. *shrug* Maybe it's just the heartfelt cry of an old school D&D player. Give me my reduced spell lists. Give me my single classed Demi-Humans. I need not your rules and compatibility. One voice in the wilderness, Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:09:06 +0000 ( ) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations and Diplomacy. Hi James This is a very interesting topic and I wish I had more time to discuss this. On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > Since we're discussing RW analogies and anachronisms today, and since > I haven't a lot of time lately but want to contribute to the list, here's a > little essay that originally went to another discussion, having to do with > the "flavor" of Mystara and whether it is a "midieval" (or "renaissance") > seting, or whether modern conceptions dominate thought (especially in the > fields political & international relations). > Anyhow, some thoughts on what Mystara is and what it should be may be > interesting (I.E. should modern state theory & international practice > dominate, or should a more "rough and ready" midieval concept of > soverignity and international relations prevail?). I dont like the tendencies of getting too modern, when describing the Mystara counrties. I think Mystara is at a stage between being a Medieval world and a renessance world. I am mainly talking about the Known World(Thyatis region). > Anyhow, I'm using only my own words. This particular essay was in response > to a point regarding "to annex, or not to annex" and things like "buffer > zones" and "demilitarized areas", which are (especially the latter) modern > concepts (actually, I was the one in favor of them, so you can see that my > thoughts are the product of a thouroughly disordered mind.) I think some of these terms are okay. After all we are living in a modern world, so trying to understand mystara from our own place in history is only natural in my opinion. However, I would prefer that very modernn terms are limited. > Midieval states evolved (and devolved) like pond life: things getting > swallowed up, then effectively breaking away in a kalidiscopic fashion > (Midieval France is a prime example, along with Midieval Germany & Italy), > But you don't really see that in Mystara (borders are, in the outer world, > very hard, modern borders. In the HW things are different, since at least > there really are no borders, just "zones" where the various cultures wax > and wane). > This fact alone makes the OW a very "modern" place (nations have > established borders, and they are considered inviolable, which is a concept > that probably only developed in the last 100 years, if not just the last > 50, IRL). The concept of the Nation appeared in the Renessance. Not only did it include the idea about stable borders, but there was also the idea that there should be one Nation for each People. A people was a group who had similar physical atributes as who shared a common culture. This seems to be an excisting idea in Mystara, even though many of the nations could be said to be "Multicultural" (Another modern word I guess). > The MML, too, exemplifies this: "agression" and "agressive" states are > frowned upon severely. Again, a very modern view: in the Midieval world, > nations (and fiefs) were constantly scheming to grab what the other guy had > in order to increase their power, and for the bigger powers (France, > Germany, S. Italy [under a variety of names], etc.) hardly a year went by > without at least a raid on some border area (either initiated, or defended > against). Warfare could best be described as "endemic". The idea that the > "normal" (usual) state of affairs is a peaceful border is hypermodern, > along with the idea of firm borders themselves. Yes. I am one of those who disagree with these notions. Especially that war is seen as a bad thing. AFAIK war has always been a matter of honour. This changed during the last centuries, because of the terrible wars occuring. New technology meant more people were killed and in the last world war mass destruction became an actuality. IMO the first of these terrible wars was the American Civil War. However, I dont think Mystara has reached this stage. If I did I would think Mystara should be very different indeed. War should still be a matter of honour and pride and of serving your king. Your wife will mourn when you don't return from battle, but your son will be proud when he is old enough to understand. > I'm probably not saying anything that folks don't already know, but I > think that this all gets forgotten in the context of Mystara. The question > then becomes is Mystara a "Midieval" (or Renaissance, which for "land grab" > purposes makes no real difference: note also that the Renaissance period > saw the rise of real nations and the passing away of the old "petty state" > {oh: the "petty state" remark refers to the KW being horribly congested > with them} > concept, at least in areas that hoped to be "players": places that failed > to make this transition [Italy, Germany except Austria] became pawns in the > struggle for dominion {"Hegemony"} bettween real states {"nation states"}). > Where was I? Oh, yes: so the question then is what "flavor" Mystara will > have: is it a effectively "modern" world with fixed borders, where "peace" > is considered the normal state of affairs and war an abnormality, and where > agression & border warfair is considered "bad form", or is it a > Midieval/Renaissance place with fluid borders and endemic raiding/warfair? I think land grabs still should matter and should be a matter of national economy. Raiding probably happens all the time. Even between barons within the same nation. > NACE is a modern nation-state (well, not a "nation state", I guess, since > it's the EU, but with only one nationality rather than a dozen). Just an > interesting adendum to the "Midieval or Modern" essay. Modern to a certain extent, but I shiver at the thought of the earlier topic; Alphatia and Democracy. > The below, from a related discussion, might also be of interest (or not): > > See, we're in the sphere of politics and international relations here. > Things aren't always done for rational reasons (hmpf, or even usually, I'd > argue). Things are often done for Thucydiean reasons (pride, fear, and > jelousy). Rational from who's point of view I might ask ;) > All events have a reason, but not all events will be based on > a rational calculace, and determinations of "cost/benifit analysis". Even > relatively worthless areas IRL are held onto for no real good reason (I.E. > Portugese Macao) for the longest time. Eusebius may be smarter than all > that, but he *does* recognize the role that prestege plays in international > affairs (I.E. if people believe you are recovering and becoming stronger, > then in a certain sense you *are* becoming stronger, even if you have fewer > troops and control less area: I.E. the "intangible" eliments of power are > often more important than "tangible" ones such as how many 36th level mages > you have and the number of artifacts in your grasping hands). > Perception, in international affairs, often *is* reality. interesting points... Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #547 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, July 31 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 548 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany on Humanoids Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations andDiplomacy. Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) [MYSTARA] - Spenglerian? Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) Re: [MYSTARA] - OD&D (was Miscellany) Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:38:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Max IV wrote: >On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > >> would be good for Mystara to be brought back as a world, to me it's just >> not the same if it were not D&D. I realize that I am probably in the >> minority for saying this, but Mystara just isn't the same without it. > >Not as much of a minority as you may think. I'm sure there are OD&D >fans out there, tho we are in a majorly dwindiling number. I much prefer the "feel" of D&D to AD&D. Don't know why, maybe just prejudice because of the AD&D players I knew when I was starting to play, maybe because the rules are more complex and I'd have to learn them (effort? No way, this is supposed to be fun! I wanna put effort into the story, the characters, not the rules!) >As for Mystara changing under trasformation to AD&D, Geoff is right, the >whole feel changes. For example, read Joshuan's almanac, and go back and >read some of the Gazetteers. The tone is much more muted in Joshuan. Take >'the Orcs of Thar' for example. That whole Gaz is kind of comical, and you >can't ever look at humanoids the same way. "Duh Legion Dies But Surrenders >not!" I love Gaz10, totally made me love the humaniods. In other things I can't be bothered with them and have humans as the bad guys, a race of things that is evil but pathetic is boring IMHO (like what James was saying about the laughable and rubbish Thyatis villian....) >Then read 'The Complete Book of Humanoids' 'nuff said. Haven't read, may take a look to compare and contrast. >Kol is a Wokan. Not a 'witch doctor'. Like Glantri would let him retain >his princely status if he cast 'Cure light' on anyone.. > >I guess my point is that Mystara has a very different look and feel about >it than AD&D. OD&D is like a macintosh, easy to use, and still powerful, >but with a distinct 'look and feel' > >AD&D is Windows 95. More options than you can possibly ever need, and >tough it has a similar feel to a Macintosh, they aren't directly >compatible. And like Win95/Mac each has their adherants who like them mainly because they're used to them. More so with game systems than operating systems of course. AD&D doesn't crash as often as Win95 for a start :) (Hmmm, UNIX=Gurps? What about linux? :) ) >That compatibility arguement is at the heart of many a debate. IMO, >Mystara lost something when AD&D took over. And it wasn't just good >writing. In the torrent of 'rules and conformity' Mystara became a stock >fantasy world, like Oerth. No longer do the Orcs make you both laugh and >feel pity for them. The term 'Hin' seems so out of place. I really wish I could put my finger on it, but I can't quite verbalise what I didn't like about the AD&D Mystara products (Except for Mark of Amber, I liked that). Perhaps it was the simplicity of them, take a look at the sample adventures, they have "new player" written all over them. Also nothing particularly interesting in them. >It's just not 'fun' anymore. AD&D added too much. One of the things that riles me is the addition of good/evil alignments. To label a whole race as evil is fine, but morality is much better as a personal outlook than as something codified into the world. How can we feel pity for the Orcs if they are all evil? (or 90% of them?) It makes for far better role-playing when the PC's are slaughtering orcs left right and center and then come across the encampment with the kiddie orcs waiting for daddy to come home. I suppose they needed to simplify things and add the good-evil axis but I wish they hadn't. Of course I ignore alignment altogether *anyway*, but the AD&D stuff really made it more of an issue than it was before (I think.) >*shrug* Maybe it's just the heartfelt cry of an old school D&D player. I rekon it is, but then I also rankle at Microsoft, so I'll join you in moaning about AD&D :) >Give me my reduced spell lists. I can remember them all! Woohoo! (But more variety can make things interesting...) >Give me my single classed Demi-Humans. Run from the elves who are all at least 1st level! Demihuman armies in OD&D are plain scary! >I need not your rules and compatibility. Damn straight :) >One voice in the wilderness, Make that two! :) Before Rob writes back to extole the virtues of AD&D (he always has better arguments than me :) ), I'd like to add that I think that most of my objections to AD&D are due to unfounded bias from my early years of playing and the lack of anything impressive for Mystara in AD&D. I think that a lot of arguments could be made for why one is better than the other, but I'll stick with OD&D. And unix :) gordon Gordon McCormick Unix Team System Management UCD Computing Services Belfield Dublin 4 Ireland +353 1 7062017 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:17:16 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Max IV wrote: > > Not as much of a minority as you may think. I'm sure there are OD&D > fans out there, tho we are in a majorly dwindiling number. > > As for Mystara changing under trasformation to AD&D, Geoff is right, the > whole feel changes. > I'd agree with that (and also the person who said that the early '80s were the Golden Age). I *usually* actually run & play AD&D in most campaigns, IMO Mystara is a D&D world, and I prefer using the D&D rules for it. I'd also have to (perhaps grudgingly) admit that the D&D rules system that Mr. Mentzer devised are a work of streamlined elegance compared to the barnacled AD&D system (the good thing about that though is you can exclude and include whatever you want, but the bad thing is that the various rules are now scattered in about a score of books, whereas the Rules Cyclopedia that is basically a compilation of Mr. Mentzer's system is all in one book). Since I'm screeding anyhow, I'd like to thank Frank & the gang for showing that "high level" (Champions & Masters) campaigns need not be boring power trips, but can be perhaps the most challenging & rich. As an asside I can now rant directly to the source: I waited for what seemed like *FOREVER* for the Temple of Elemental Evil to come out !!!!!!!!!! The good thing was that when it did reach the shelves (bought it at Pegasus Games, Mad. WI), it proved to be well worth the wait, IMO. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:23:14 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany on Humanoids > > >Then read 'The Complete Book of Humanoids' 'nuff said. > > Haven't read, may take a look to compare and contrast. > Hmmmn. . .I'd say "don't bother", but that would be rude. "The Complete Book of Humanoids" just doesn't have the same *SPIRIT* that "Orcs of Thar" does, IMO. It's pretty dry, textual, like you're reading a academic zoology, while "Orcs of Thar" really gets you into the mindset to go pay back the Hummies for their foul opression. > > > much better as a personal outlook than as something codified into the > world. How can we feel pity for the Orcs if they are all evil? (or > 90% of them?) > Who Shall Weep for the Orcs? Alignment has become one of my pet peeves lately, too. Good thing most good DMs don't pay it much attention, but I've really become more fond of the "basic" Law/Neutrality/Chaos axis, which both allows diferentiation while leaving a lot of latitude within the alignments, so that what becomes important is the thing that should be important: personality and actions, not some label. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies: International Relations andDiplomacy. > > The concept of the Nation appeared in the Renessance. Not only did it > include the idea about stable borders, but there was also the idea that > there should be one Nation for each People. > Well, the concept of the Nation-State appeared in the Renaissance, but it didn't *really* take compete root until after the Napolionic Wars. And the idea of stable borders didn't take root until the early 20th century. The Hapbsburg Empire, various border land grabs by Franks of a variety of descriptions, et al. A lot of what happened under the surface was based on displacement and forms of "cultural imperialism"; "foreign" ethnic groups within a "national" frontier were either absorbed/assimilated or displaced (what *really* spurred this was the growth, very late, of national education systems, with the use of common texts, that worked to eliminate/subdue dialects etc.) So what we have now, circa 20th century, are roughly national frontiers where on one side of a given border are folks of one nationality and on the other side a different nationality (this is proving to be a short-lived thing though, as now folks are flowing back and forth across european frontiers, confusing or rather re-confusing the issue). Very *drastic* surgery was required to achieve even this much, and in Eastern Europe (dispite Stalin's very severe surgery, moving vast numbers of people around after WWII to fit into the borders he drew) things are still somewhat messy (c.f. Balkans, Transylvanian Romania where lots of Magyars live, etc). Mystara, in the KW at least, lacks this to a large degree. There is assimilation, immigration, "multiculturalism", but very little irredentism. I'd agree with all the below, with the addendum that the Crimean War was perhaps the first "modern" war (though the Nap. Wars were pretty destructive, too, and quieted things down for a generation afterwards because folks didn't want to repeat the disaster; Hmmmn. . .30 Years War was pretty F**ing bad, though, too). Anyhow, the general point is accurate, especially in a world where folks love to go bash in the head of a Gnoll, I really can't see them taking a pacifistic stand on warfair. > > Yes. I am one of those who disagree with these notions. Especially that > war is seen as a bad thing. AFAIK war has always been a matter of honour. > This changed during the last centuries, because of the terrible wars > occuring. New technology meant more people were killed and in the last > world war mass destruction became an actuality. IMO the first of these > terrible wars was the American Civil War. However, I dont think Mystara > has reached this stage. If I did I would think Mystara should be very > different indeed. War should still be a matter of honour and pride and of > serving your king. Your wife will mourn when you don't return from battle, > but your son will be proud when he is old enough to understand. > > > Rational from who's point of view I might ask ;) > Touche'. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:40:41 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities >Funny thing that a 4th circle Necromancer had no interest until after >lichdom. > Well, that's what it says in the canon material on Brannart. I personally think it's a nice touch, as it makes Brannart more unique than just another necromancer who became a lich. Heck, he may have become interested in necromancy after becoming a lich because he wanted to find a possible way of reversing the process... ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) I've finally come back. I'll start right off with an idea I've been kicking around for awhile. I don't know if the following has already been covered in another post, but it all seems obvious to me, so I imagine some previous posts could be similar. Basically I'm assuring everyone I'm not plagiarizing. And with that . . . Ethengar (and Rockhome, though not officially) has prepared to conduct an all-out war on Glantri. It was bound to happen soon since Ethengarians are more unified than usual (in Mongol history, unity equalled a period of conquest. Luckily for most of our ancestors unity didn't happen regularly), the Glantrians make little fuss about outright degradation of Ethengarian life, and the Dwarves have been waiting for the perfect moment to exact revenge on those that initiated the pogroms and dwarf-maiming experimentations during the persecutions of 806AC. This post isn't too concerned with the details about who'll win (I'm rooting for the Ethengar-Rockhome alliance) or the mass repercussions of the coming conflict. However, there will be one key repercussion of this war I'd like to propose. Read on. The Principality of Erewan has been on the verge of political collapse since the onset of war with Alphatia. Carlotina Erewan has seen her solid political power crumble into pebbles under the relentless, ruthless maneuvering of La Princesa Carnelia de Fedorias y Belcadiz; Carlotina had little dirt on her record, but her sympathy for traditional elves and their lifestyles was simply too much ammo to hand a politician as accomplished as Carnelia. With the advent of New Kolland and its frequent forays into the nearby Erewan Principality, Carlotina's military and economic resources are now strained beyond a tolerable level. Carlotina has no political power to bring the upstart Prince Kol under control through the Council of Princes, nor can she hope to launch punitive or deterrent raids into New Kolland. In fact, Carlotina would probably be seen as "the bad guy" if she resorted to such independent and brash actions. Now an Ethengarian/Dwarf army is poised to strike Glantri. Anyone with the education of an elf, let alone a princess, knows the textbook routes of such an army and a few other possibilities. It's most likely that the army will move through Boldavia since it's not behind 20 thousand foot maountains, wide open to attack from the steppes, and rife with undead just waiting to wither under clerical might. Then they'd move up the steep pass to Klantyre and gain a free passage to the rest of the country. Or the Army could move south through Belcadiz (great for Erewan) since the steppes gradually rise into this land without the mountainous terrain so troublesome to mounted warriors. Or the Dwarf faction could lead a flanking assault through the mountains while the Ethengarians hold the Glantri Army in place between Belcadiz and the Broken Lands . . . But one possibility has to be weighing heavily upon Carlotina's distressed mind. The allied army moves down the Streel River into the Broken Lands, pulls westward short of the Darokin border, and then moves north sending a horde of Goblinoids reeling into Southern Glantri, specifically Erewan. The horde of goblins, followed by the terribly large, powerful, and disciplined allied army, would turn her Principality into the world's largest blood stain. This last situation has many more uncertainties attatched than the other plans, but both the Ethengarians and Dwarves aren't afraid of risk if it offers a possibility of greater success. Carlotina probably knows this. With the Principality of Erewan already being shaken like a rag doll, it won't survive a decisive blow. Therefore, Carlotina will probably give the signal for Clan Ellerovyn to evacuate. But where do they go? They can't get to Wendar as the Princes probably won't allow amnesty due to Carnelia de Belcadiz's sentiments and Carlotina won't even consider a roundabout route through Ethengar given the current situation. Retreating to the Shires or Karameikos through a massive swath of Darokin is politically risky if not physically dangerous, and it would take a long time for the Clan to complete the trek with a Tree of Life in tow. Enter Aengmor. Formerly the Canolbarth Forest, it's now a hulking mass of rotting wood thanks to the shadow elves' invasion. It's sparsely inhabited and only a few hundred miles off. It would serve as a perfect safe haven, except there are two problems. One is the infertility of Aengmor under its current state. Another is that the shadow elves, xenophobic and outnumbering the Ellerovyn elves by about 9 to 1 are likely to attack the fair elves on sight. I insist that Carlotina has the means to solve both problems with one solution. As the Mistress of the Secret Runic Craft and having something like three 4th circle Runemasters in her employ, her magic can begin to revive the Canolbarth forest to health, though it will take time to research and succeed in such an undertaking. The Ellerovyn Clan is relatively wealthy, so they can rely on buying surplus food from Darokin for a few years barring an absolute disaster. Also, I must reiterate that the shadow elves aren't inherently evil like their drow cousins in other corners of the multiverse. Their experiences have given them tremendous reason to be quick to fight and mistrustful of everyone. Right now they are bent on restoring the forest to its previous state as they believe such a place is their birthright. It would also serve the practical purpose of providing much needed shade from the sun that harms them while allowing just enough sun so that they may eventually adjust to the surface atmosphere. Also, they are actually least untrusting of elves despite recent history. Elves are their cousins and have treated the shadow elves fairly, even generously, in past encounters. They also aren't as covetous of gems (which shadow elves believe contain the souls of unborn children) as the other races, and are more reliable in their tendencies as a racial whole than any other race save the Mystaran dwarves. To this end, the shadow elves have sought elves as far away as Norwold that might be able to restore the magic that grew Canolbarth Forest. However, the old method seems lost to the modern world leaving the shadow elves to discover a new way of accomplishing their goal. Carlotina's runic craft will surely interest the shadow elves. The runes have the power to restore their forest, and the shadow elves, though they will remain wary of the Ellerovyn Clan for some time, will leave them alone to work on rebuilding the forest. Hence many current problems, such as the fate of Clan Ellerovyn, Aengmor (I DON'T want to see a reconquest by the surface elves like so many are pushing for. That would be a step back, and though I don't appreciate many changes that occurred during WotI, shadow elves coming to live on the surface was one of the better long-term prospects that came about), and a way to stabilize this turbulent corner of the known world for awhile. The western nations of the Mystaran Old World need a break just like any other nation. In time, Clan Ellerovyn would also probably become the go-between for the shadow elves and the rest of the surface until the shadow elves became confident enough to begin an active role in their foreign diplomacy. And a little farther down the road, Aengmor may once again become "Alfheim" once the shadow elves come down from their paranoia and seek reconciliation with the cousins they drove away. So what do you guys think? Sound good, or just a pipe dream? (It's good to be back! :) ) AC _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:21:29 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Spenglerian? Okay, Spengler 101. Select and observe a culture; say, the Roman, Greek, Byzantine, or other ancient and extinct empire. You can identify various periods of that culture's development... savage origins, growth and invention, comfortable civilization, decline, and collapse. There's more, but that's the gist. Some claim that all human cultures follow this same basic pattern. The details change, but from a broader cultural viewpoint they are alike. Oswald Spengler (died in 1936), in his "Der Untergang des Abendlandes" (Decline of The West), apparently was the first to publish that theory. He claimed that the future of a culture not yet extinct (such as ours, aka The West) can therefore be predicted, since they all follow the same basic path. It is yet another philosophical stride, of course, to meld cyclical Spenglerianism with a parallelism applied to the physical territory of such cultures. As I noted, I first encountered it in Heinlein. - -- FM (Amateurs write what they dream. Professionals work at it. Neither has the advantage.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:28:17 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Forges of Power > Actually I saw something in the Hollow World timeline that would > seem to confirm my theory: > > BC 1800: Kagyar reshapes dwarven race into its present form. > > AC 200: Rockhome dwarves begin colonizing into outside lands. > > By my theory that gap of 2000 years would have given the Dwarves > time to quadruple their original allotment of Forges of Power -- or > even more than that if the requirement to destroy the Dwarven Lens > as part of the creation process is dropped. The creation of the > first derivative Forge of Power would have taken 900-1100 years, > but if the Dwarven Lens is not destroyed in the process then > that original Forge could continue turning out more Forges of > Power at the rate of one per century. ALLSTON wrote it, and he made more than one error. The problem I'm seeing is that you can find dwarves all over Mystara, AC 200 as start of colonizations might be o.k., but after that the dwarves had to achieve great success. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:40:58 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) Actually in the 1015 almanac an Ethie-Glantri war does occr. IIRC, the main Ethie assault comes through Boldavia and due to political manuverng by Brannart the undead army attacks everything in sight, Moglai Khan dies in the siege of Glantri City and the Ethies retreat. However the Erwen elves fleeing like you propose is an interesting idea. PS Please don't start the Ethie-Glantri war debate again... :( Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:54:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OD&D (was Miscellany) > > would be good for Mystara to be brought back as a world, to me it's just > > not the same if it were not D&D. I realize that I am probably in the > > minority for saying this, but Mystara just isn't the same without it. > > Not as much of a minority as you may think. I'm sure there are OD&D > fans out there, tho we are in a majorly dwindiling number. There are quite a number of D&D fans out there (esp. on this list), but why would we be dwindling in number? We aren't that old that we're likely to pass away anytime soon and we've stuck with the system for years since it was given up by TSR, showing dedication and persistence that will IMO keep it as the system of choice for many Mystara fans for some time to come. > I guess my point is that Mystara has a very different look and feel about > it than AD&D. OD&D is like a macintosh, easy to use, and still powerful, > but with a distinct 'look and feel' > > AD&D is Windows 95. More options than you can possibly ever need, and > though it has a similar feel to a Macintosh, they aren't directly > compatible. Very good comparison! I still can't get the hang of those Win95 machines at work while the Macs around campus are SO easy to use. > No longer do the Orcs make you both laugh and > feel pity for them. The term 'Hin' seems so out of place. Orcs shouldn't just be for humor..that's why we have gremlins and tabi and other semi-serious beings. I like the HW portrayals of the humanoids there, where they actually seem like a realistic society. As for 'hin', a) I can't stand anything by Ed Greenwood and b) even though halflings are very cool, there's no need for another name they call themselves. They admit they're short when they use halfling, but they know they're just as capable as humans. > It's just not 'fun' anymore. AD&D added too much. While I never saw the ADND mystara products, I saw the ADNDization of Mystara in HWR2 (which couldn't make up its mind what system it used) and some other sources and it wasn't pretty. > Give me my single classed Demi-Humans. I hate the race-class system, but I think the wokani/shaman and some of the race variants are neat. Makes one gnome or lizard man or what have you different from the next. > One voice in the wilderness, One of many around here ;) "The man who speaks softly does not need a big stick;and, if he yields to temptation and equips himself with one, the tone of his voice is very likely to change" - former Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan (D-Neb.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:00:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany > >It's just not 'fun' anymore. AD&D added too much. > > One of the things that riles me is the addition of good/evil > alignments. To label a whole race as evil is fine, but morality is > much better as a personal outlook than as something codified into the > world. How can we feel pity for the Orcs if they are all evil? (or > 90% of them?) Definite agreement here. I like how the Malpheggi or Krugel are presented as not of a uniform personality/alignment. There is no reason for any Mystaran race to be presented as evil incarnate or totally virtuous. I think this fits into Mystara's Shades of Grey which everyone keeps mentioning as a good thing about the world. > >Give me my reduced spell lists. > > I can remember them all! Woohoo! (But more variety can make things > interesting...) Player imagination was never limited though and I think players are more likely to come up with their own ideas in this field when they aren't presented with 50 million 'canon' spells/prayers. > Run from the elves who are all at least 1st level! Demihuman armies > in OD&D are plain scary! No one should be able to take out dwarves in the mountains or lizard men in the swamps or even the wussy elves in their forests. Home field advantage applies alot more to demihumans in OD&D as it should. > I think that a lot of arguments could be made for why one is > better than the other, but I'll stick with OD&D. And unix :) I think alot of it depends on what system you started with. Us OD&D fans can praise that game as much as we like and the AD&D fans can have their game. To each their own. "The man who speaks softly does not need a big stick;and, if he yields to temptation and equips himself with one, the tone of his voice is very likely to change" - former Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan (D-Neb.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on Ethengar, Glantri, New Kolland, La Princesa, Erewan, Runic Craft, and Aengmor (trust me, it'll all come together nicely) On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > Actually in the 1015 almanac an Ethie-Glantri war does occr. IIRC, the > main Ethie assault comes through Boldavia and due to political manuverng > by Brannart the undead army attacks everything in sight, Moglai Khan > dies in the siege of Glantri City and the Ethies retreat. However the > Erwen elves fleeing like you propose is an interesting idea. Wow.. can you say parallel between real life and Mystara? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:25:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 ExTSR@AOL.COM wrote: > I do not know whether this was ever brought out in adventures or > supplements issued after my departure, but in my original design, there was a > secret regarding the demi-human Relics. Do you think that without the > Keepers, the Relics would become dormant, useless things? Bah. > Relics are alive. This was hinted at (and outright stated in some places, notably CM7: Tree of Life, and GAZ5, which had them as [Pah!] Avatars of Ilsundal), at least in regards to the ToL. Not so much the Blackflame and Forges of Power, though (the last, notably, seemed to lessen in significance due to the machinations of Aaron Allston in GAZ6- a blight on an otherwise really good product). I think that much was faily obvious from your initial descriptions of them, though, as noted, later authors either disregarded, ignored, or used the theory in whichever way they chose. For the record, Bruce's portrayal was probably the closest to what was intended. My theory, in re: the ToL, at least, is that they were once Treekeepers themselves, who became the Trees due to either failed attempts at Immortality, or some other reason. Notable example here, is of course, my favorite- Algorn, of Algorn's Last Stand magic point, from GAZ5. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #548 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, August 1 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 549 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor question for Mr. Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - Spenglerian? Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany [MYSTARA] - Attn: Frank Mentzer [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games Re: [MYSTARA] - Attn: Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics [MYSTARA] - Channel Project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:28:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor question for Mr. Mentzer Welcome to the list, Mr. Mentzer, good to see you're still around and doing well! I loved the Gold Box Immortals set- just had to get that out. :) I've been enjoying your posts this past week, and came up with a question not too long ago while reading your thoughts on later creators. Were you still around when Dave Arneson got the chance to recreate his Blackmoor setting on Mystara? If so, did you have any correspondence with him on that, or any thoughts on his work in that regards? Just curious, and glad to "meet" you. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:38:19 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spenglerian? In a message dated 98-07-31 15:36:01 EDT, you write: IIRC it was Ibn Khaldun who first developed the concept of cyclical socio- political evolution (though not to the same degree as Spengler), in the _Muqaddimah_, written in the 14th century... a book that should not be missed (much like Geoffrey of Monmouth's _History of the Kings of Britain_, it is a difficult, if worthy read; more worthy, in fact, especially if you are running a game based in Ylaruam). Mystaros << Okay, Spengler 101. Select and observe a culture; say, the Roman, Greek, Byzantine, or other ancient and extinct empire. You can identify various periods of that culture's development... savage origins, growth and invention, comfortable civilization, decline, and collapse. There's more, but that's the gist. Some claim that all human cultures follow this same basic pattern. The details change, but from a broader cultural viewpoint they are alike. Oswald Spengler (died in 1936), in his "Der Untergang des Abendlandes" (Decline of The West), apparently was the first to publish that theory. He claimed that the future of a culture not yet extinct (such as ours, aka The West) can therefore be predicted, since they all follow the same basic path. It is yet another philosophical stride, of course, to meld cyclical Spenglerianism with a parallelism applied to the physical territory of such cultures. As I noted, I first encountered it in Heinlein. -- FM (Amateurs write what they dream. Professionals work at it. Neither has the advantage.) >> *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:22:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany >I think alot of it depends on what system you started with. Us OD&D fans >can praise that game as much as we like and the AD&D fans can have their >game. To each their own. I think everyone likes the game they played first (or more or less first). I played D+D when I was REALLY young, and then moved straight on to 2nd ed. D+D is but a dim, distant memory now - and as for 1st ed, I missed that completely. Formative years, and all that, I guess :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:42:09 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany > Since I'm screeding anyhow, I'd like to thank Frank & the gang for showing >that "high level" (Champions & Masters) campaigns need not be boring power >trips, but can be perhaps the most challenging & rich. Oh yes - works of genius, all the high level Mystaran products. Its something that TSR has really forgotten how to do - worthy high level adventures. Just about every adventure seems to be for the sort of "mid range" levels nowadays. What happened to those adventures with Immortal plots (Into the Maelstrom with the Victory Points for the Immortals absolutely ruled! Praise be to Skip, IIRC). I think just about every AD+D player has some high level guys who have been retired around 12th level (I know I have). Everyone is just begging TSR to release some worthy high level adventures. Its getting to the stage where I have forgotten what its like to cast a 9th level spell! Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:50:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany >I am going to have to add my voice to Shawn's in saying that, while it >would be good for Mystara to be brought back as a world, to me it's just >not the same if it were not D&D. I realize that I am probably in the >minority for saying this, but Mystara just isn't the same without it. I think I agree with you here actually :) All TSR products seem to have a very similar sheen to them, at the moment. Stuff like Warhammer and Vampire have a completely different tone from AD+D (which always seems very artificial and polished, to me). I think TSR has to try to get away from this a bit (even though most of it is really just in peoples minds,IMHO). Mystara really does have a very different feel from the other settings. Perhaps this is because of the rules that it was designed for. It does, if nothing else, differentiate the setting from the AD+D settings. Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:45:39 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany >Those who can, write. Those who cannot, borrow. >I'm one of the ones who cannot, so I prefer to say plagiarise :) Hey, dont knock plagiarism. (Especially after 2 years of writing adventures and suffering massive writers block, due to running 3 times a week :) Not only has it enabled many students to graduate :) the Raiders of the Lost Ark ripoff went down a blast. :) Except everyone was trying to be Indy at the same time :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:36:35 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany >I really wish I could put my finger on it, but I can't quite >verbalise what I didn't like about the AD&D Mystara products (Except >for Mark of Amber, I liked that). >Perhaps it was the simplicity of them, take a look at the sample >adventures, they have "new player" written all over them. Also >nothing particularly interesting in them. Yeah I hated that new player feel to it. Baby talking or what! The actual content of the real books was cool (and still quite Mystaran, too, I think) but all the other gubbins (like the adventures, and the sample characters) are really patronising... Besides - I think a reason why it didnt attract ppl is because there wasnt enough of it. Investing in a game world is quite expensive (especially those boxes) - ppl wont buy a couple of books describing a tiny chunk of a game world if they think its going to get cancelled straight away. I reckon theres probably some sort of "critical mass" for products. Like Star Frontiers - cool game, but I just got hold of the rule books and it was cancelled... I never bought any of these "little" games ever again, coz I dont want to waste my hard earned... But, at the end of the day - the rulz dont really count (as the many who play GURPs will attest). Its still Mystara, at the end of the day. >Before Rob writes back to extole the virtues of AD&D (he always has >better arguments than me :) ), I'd like to add that I think that most >of my objections to AD&D are due to unfounded bias from my early >years of playing and the lack of anything impressive for Mystara in >AD&D. I think that a lot of arguments could be made for why one is >better than the other, but I'll stick with OD&D. And unix :) Whoa! I'm famous! Or is that infamous? :) Thinking about it, the reason I'm cool with the AD+D products is because it really reintroduced me to Mystara - I had almost forgotten it existed. Then i got hold of Red Steel, rediscovered Mystara, and wa hey! I bought the lot. And it was ace reliving all the old stuff (like Bargle and Aleena in K:KoA! Talk about "old times"). So, probably, if it wasnt for that shortlived AD+D release - I would still be playing Planescape and Dragonlance. (BTW - Not only did I miss 1st ed D+D, I missed DOS as well. So yeah, I'm a Windows guy as well... Blame Bill Gates and his marketing :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:07:24 EDT From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Attn: Frank Mentzer Hi Frank! Nice to see you too made it to the MML! A few things... >>Bruce Heard did an excellent job in coordinating the development of the Mystaran campaign.<< Thanks for the compliment. The starting point was certainly an inspiration! >>That said, know also that Bruce and I have had many serious differences, and we do not correspond.<< Hello? The only project I remember discussing with you was M1 Into the Maelstrom, which I wrote based upon a partial design of the Masters Set. No other data was made available to me at the time. No fault of yours -- no accusation intended. The timing just was as rotten as could be. We may have had some different ideas (???) but I don't see how you can say that we had many serious differences since we've hardly worked together. >> I shall not comment on any of his work, since I am less than comprehensively familiar with it and his motives.<< No prob. (I had motives?) >> So what did I have in mind originally, for the first-ever campaign maps? Quite a bit, but very little of it was listened to by the developers. You see, every designer seems to love his own designs best... and those of less than the highest professionality (here I do NOT refer to Bruce) may choose, if permitted, to ignore previous plans in favor of new ideas.<< This is revealing. No such material was ever passed on to me. I did not know that you had left anything behind after your departure. Welcome to the Dark Years of TSR -- I guess. Fortunately, the end result wasn't so bad after all, judging from the number of people on this list and their love for the setting. I'll agree with you when you say all developers seem to love their own designs best. No shame in that. Everyone on that bandwagon, please raise you hand (yours too, Frank!). I'm not being sarcastic, it's just the simple truth. I'm glad to see that you're not referring to me as one of the less than professional developers -- I'll definitely return the compliment back to you. I doubt those involved with the development of Mystara had a bone to pick with you personally because for the vast majority they were out-of-state freelancers. These people neither had a connection with L. D. Williams nor much of an understanding of internal politics at TSR. The direction they had for the development of Mystara came from me, and since I had little original data to go by (at least as far as I knew), they certainly couldn't do any better. Actually, the development of Mystara and the mere survival of the D&D game was an uphill battle with TSR's upper management (during the Dark Years as you so aptly put it), and sometimes a bitter one. Of all people I suspect you understand what that means. Actualy, I had a question for you. Have you had a chance to use the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? Did you have any comments about it? I'm just curious about your opinion since the RC is a compilation of your original rules development. Thanks for showing up at the MML! Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:57:43 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games Hi, all. Lemme tell ya how I discovered OD&D, which I did in a sort of backwards sort of way. A long time ago (about the early 80's) I was twelve/thirteen years old, and my then gaming group played 1st ed. AD&D. Back then, our DM made no distinction between "Advanced" D&D and just "plain old" D&D. We used the Advanced Player's Handbook, and our DM had the Monster Manual and Gygax's wonderful Dungeon Master's Guide. Being rather young, a lot of the more involved Advanced rules we either modified heavily or blithely ignored. We played "Earthshaker" and "Ravenloft" (the original module, not the marketing-department spawned campaign setting) and "Castle Amber" with no apparent distinction between Basic and Advanced rules. I guess just using the term "module" spotlights me as an old 1st ed. Advanced gamer! Anyway, when my group split up years later and it was time for me to ascend to DM-ship, I just took up with the Advanced rulebooks, figuring the Basic boxed sets were just a reduced version of the game or whatever. I made it to college around the time 2nd ed. Advanced came out, and naturally made the move to those books. Time passed, and gradually I grew disenchanted with the quality of TSR's 2nd ed. Advanced product line. Even though it was more organized than Gygax's original Advanced books, it lacked his caliber of writing and the "gusto" (for lack of a better term) of the original Advanced modules/adventures. So then in 1991 I run into a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. I bought it immediately. I remember flipping through it, thinking to myself, "hmm, pretty basic. Elves are just elves, fighters are just fighters. But look at all that's in this thing! Monster section! Immortals! Advancing characters to level 36! Campaigning rules! Full color world maps!" I was sold. It was then I realized that Basic was essentially a different game than Advanced, with its own unique "flavor" and expectations of play. At the time I picked up the Cyclopedia, my group and I were playing a slew of other games, and by the time I got around to picking up my Cyclopedia again, TSR had dropped the Basic line. Recently I've picked up the Champions of Mystara boxed set, and Wrath of the Immortals, and the Creature Crucible too (oh, and Night Howlers - can't forget that!), and these products form my Basic collection, which I won't part with for anything. I've missed out on all the Gazeteers, which I lament, because much of what is discussed here seems to come from those pages. To me, the Basic game has much of the spirit of 1st ed. Advanced, when the hobby was written by gamers for gamers. As a matter of fact, I've traded off all my 2nd ed. stuff for other games, yet retain my 1st ed. products (and as I already said, my Basic stuff). Phew! What a rant! Anyway, to conclude (and I can hear the collective sigh of relief out there...) has anyone else had experience with all 3 versions of the Dungeons and Dragons game, and if so, what can you say about your experience? P.S.: I've always wanted to know: is there any connection between Greyhawk's Blackmoor and Mystara's Blackmoor? Thanks for reading this far. - - Mograg of the Many Words. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:18:50 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany > > I believe so. :) Y'see, I've known the boss of WotC for quite a while - -- > since HE had to stand in line to see ME, instead of the other way around. > ::blush:: (Hi Peter; hope that gives you a chuckle.) And unlike the last > boss, he's a gamer. Really... and still. A year ago I was telling people to > hang onto their hats and watch what happens -- for the better. This year I'm > in "I told ya so" mode, and there's a lot more to come. > I have to (reluctantly and grudgingly) admit that I was wrong. I thought that when WotC bought TSR it would be the end of the world (well, not quite: what happened to GDW was worse, obviously). The only thing I dislike so far and still is moving the company out of Lake Geneva (*mutter*). Oh, that and putting Birthright on hold, that too. But by and large I think the products are (so far) showing improvement, as far as being useful for games and not just reading materiel. Now, if they'll just do something to revive the Mystara setting itself. . .but from what I gather there aren't current plans to do that. (*mutters again*) Porphyrogenetus, who is better at complaining than at complimenting, and hates to admit he is wrong. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:33:05 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games > with no apparent distinction between Basic and Advanced rules. > I guess just using the term "module" spotlights me as an old > 1st ed. Advanced gamer! > They aren't called Modules anymore? (I remember when they cost $5 bucks, and were meant to be played, not read, but I'm cantankerous in the extreme). > ed. Advanced product line. Even though it was more organized > than Gygax's original Advanced books, it lacked his caliber > of writing and the "gusto" (for lack of a better term) of the > original Advanced modules/adventures. When I'm feeling bad about it in general I'd say they don't have the same spirit. I tend to judge game accessories by: 1) how fond my memories are of going through (or DMing) an adventure and 2) how frequently I refer back to or reuse them. Perhaps it's just that I was younger, more enthusiastic, and gamed with a great group of folks, but the older modules, even though shorter and "less detailed" (I.E. not writen as if they were novels) are the ones I most fondly remember. They're also the ones I tend to re-use the most. Could just be nostalgia, but I tend to doubt it. I *certainly* got more "bang for the buck" out of $6 and $7 modules than I have from $20 - 30 boxed sets. > > P.S.: I've always wanted to know: is there any connection between > Greyhawk's Blackmoor and Mystara's Blackmoor? > Of course I'm not the right person to say, but IMO they were both inspired by the same source (Arneson's Blackmoor campaign). Greyhawk actually came out before the whole Mystara thing (IIRC, right around the time X1 was pub'd, with the map of the "Known World", which was the first Mystara I really saw. "Blue book" D&D was my 1st basic set). Blackmoor was included in the far north of the Greyhawk maps as a kind of tribute (I think. This was all so long ago, and I can't remember what was "canon" on all this. Frank could tell us, or ask Gary for us, though 8-). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Attn: Frank Mentzer On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 Ambreville@AOL.COM wrote: > Actualy, I had a question for you. Have you had a chance to use the D&D Rules > Cyclopedia? Did you have any comments about it? I'm just curious about your > opinion since the RC is a compilation of your original rules development. Along that vein, I'll pose another question Mr. Mentzer's way- if your answer to the above is a yes (as in , yes, I have seen the Rules Cyclopedia), what did you think of the Weapon Mastery rules for Unarmed Combat (ie, Striking and Wrestling)? Given that the Weapon Mastery was, I'm guessing, your design (and an excellent one, by the way- note that, as I understand it, it was cannibalized for the AD&D new rules book, that hardcover one that lets you use points to make a character...?). Did you ever intend for the Weapon Mastery rules to be used for Unarmed Combat? - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:36:38 -0700 From: "James D. Skee" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 8:57 PM -0700 7/31/98, bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: >group played 1st ed. AD&D. Back then, our DM made no distinction >between "Advanced" D&D and just "plain old" D&D. We used the >Advanced Player's Handbook, and our DM had the Monster Manual >and Gygax's wonderful Dungeon Master's Guide. Something interesting to add to this - I have a copy of the "first red box" (?) for the D&D rules (the one that has B2 Keep on the Borderlands and one rule book that is 3 ring punched). Included with it is an old 1981 TSR catalouge, and besides the fact that this is a very interesting look into the state of the whole product line back then, there is are entries for the "Collector's Edition" of D&D, as well as both the 1st ed. AD&D products and the D&D Basic set. Reading the entries for the Collector's edition has been quite interesting, not to mention the fact that the two supplements for the base set were "Greyhawk", primarily a combat rules and monster list expantion according to the cataloge, and "Blackmoor" added the Monk and Assasin classes, as well as a "sample dungeon" called (guess what?) "The Temple of the Frog." Its extremely interesting to me to note that the Monk and Assasin classes were in the original AD&D Player's Handbook, and, apparently, a part of the "original" OD&D rules as well. Maybe your DM had copies of the "collector's" edition? - - -- James D. Skee - spwalker@gte.net Visual Circus Productions (in-limbo-state) PGP Public Key available upon request - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNcLiyIMTxxTYKt0CEQL4uwCeN9Spg7Z/sDgzvV4qRvYsojgQXP8AoNGz a8fem79zX0FrFWn9TiH7fXEp =RlTz - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:36:31 -0700 From: "James D. Skee" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 8:45 AM -0700 7/31/98, SteelAngel wrote: >As much as Mystara being proto-earth is an intriguing idea, it always >seemed so contrived to me when I read the gold box. I could never picture >Mystara (or the Known World as I knew it as back then) being in our solar >system, with our planets, etc. etc. It kinda made the game less >'fantastic'. Ever read "Eon" by Greg Bear? If anyone else has, the idea's and concepts of parallel universes ("multiverse") having objects from similar time/space locales, yet different existences, snap into the similar dimention, and causing lots and lots of general havoc and chaos and affecting at least once of the existences' for all of it's time. Ie, not that Mystara was a "proto-earth", rather, they are "linked" some way or another, maybe because of homo sapiens. Lots of stuff here can be used based on the "God playing dice in blackholes" lecture of Stephen Hawking... hmm, TSR originally called dice "Randomizer's", didnt they??? oops, better not go there too far 8-) >I always prefferred to think that the Beagle (From Arneson's Blackmoor) >was from Earth. (Though, now with Benekander described how he was, even >that comes into doubt.) I myself always felt a strong Space Quest influence, especially they way that the Galactic Federation is described in DA3. I must admit, I laughed for quite a while when the exploration arm of the Federation was described; and the first thing that popped in my head was Roger Wilco, alone, walking out of a janitor's closet. - - -- James D. Skee - spwalker@gte.net Visual Circus Productions (in-limbo-state) PGP Public Key available upon request - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNcLi0IMTxxTYKt0CEQLcjgCg7E11CbAFrjWj92Q1eTDv/5j4jDAAnj2P HgQKBHxcIf5/IzOmXojP/Gm9 =DvUQ - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:03:54 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities In a message dated 98-07-31 01:24:48 EDT, you write: << So what did I have in mind originally, for the first-ever campaign maps? Quite a bit, but very little of it was listened to by the developers. You see, every designer seems to love his own designs best... and those of less than the highest professionality (here I do NOT refer to Bruce) may choose, if permitted, to ignore previous plans in favor of new ideas. I must admit that it was discouraging when those who continued the path of Mystara did not bother to even ask what was intended or planned. I don't know that anyone even read my files on the subject that were left at TSR after my departure. >> So what exactly were your original ideas? I think I speak for most of the members of the list in saying we would be very interested in hearing about your original vision for Mystara (or the Known World as it was then known). - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:35:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... For those who have expressed interest, I am currently typing up the last Known World Grimoire article (from Dragon #200). Assuming there are no legal problems with this, I will make these available to those who want them. Send me E-mail privately, and specify whether or not you want the entire Princess Ark log included. The material in the Champions of Mystara boxed set, except for the log, is not included in this package; everything else is. The advantage to this is that everything is pulled together rather than spread all over forty-six magazine articles. So all of Bruce (all hail!) Heard's Savage Coast stuff is in one file, the articles on dominions are together, etc. And, again, the entire Log of Haldemar is complied together, forming one big honkin' file. I will wait until I have heard from Bruce or someone else who can let me know whether or not I'm allowed to do this. I will NOT be posting this compliation on any web page; this is only for individuals. However, in the meantime, let me know if you'd like a copy. I'll send them out all at once, since the zip will probably be nearly half a meg in size or more. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:02:28 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Aimed at (I am not worthy) Frank Mentzer > Just a little something inspired by the debate currently going on about how > Mystaran nations are based on RW nations... > > I noticed that the Mystaran land mass as drawn in the Master rulebooks looks > somewhat similar to ancient Pangaea before continental drift... Was this > intentional? And was it intentionally to place as much as possible RW countries into the Know World? Some of the lands are miserably small, especially the Ethengar Khanates. Later countries like Sind and Alphatia, likewise many countries on the Savage Coast, were much greater. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:51:48 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics > Poppycock, straining at gnats. > Ack! And sputter, cough, and gag. You mean nobody at TSR ever came up with > the Official Method of making a new Forge, even now (15 years after I made the > first one, you might say)? > > Say it ain't so. Please. Quote a reference if you do... lest I be tempted to > Reveal All in this regard. > (Although I Am Not Worthy, either.) Who else is worthy, if not the creator? Especially the forges of power are neglected by most people. Aaron Allston wrote the gazetteer "Dwarves of Rockhome", and the greatest part of it was good work. The part about the forges were some of the worst I've ever read. Allston wrote that the forge of the Hurwarf clan is in absolutely darkness to collect "Oil of Darkness". According to D&D Companion Set I estimate this as complete nonsense. BTW, I don't want to start a crusade against Allston, but thinking about the forges thing just annoys me. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:58:12 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Channel Project Greetings, all you members of the Mystara Mailing List, I'm thinking about a project (Mystara and RW) to connect some waterway of Alphatia by channels. I've developed this idea in the article about the "Order of the Lakes", which can be found on my homepage http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan I can do the work alone, but I would prefer to get some assistance. Estimations about time, costs, routes, locks would be invaluable. Should anybody be interested in that, please e-mail me privately with a [CHANNEL] in the beginning of the subject. I don't want to start the discussion on the MML as it is really in an early planning stadium. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #549 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, August 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 550 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - signing off Re: [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... [MYSTARA] - Sundry Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games Re: [MYSTARA] - Sundry Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - Sundry Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Shin Chyang Yu Subject: [MYSTARA] - signing off Hey guys, I just have too much to do recently to keep up with the mailing list, so I will be gone for a few month, until I finish my thesis. Hopefully, I will return in about 3 month. Until then, feel free to email me on anything. Later. - -- John Yu, scy2g@virginia.edu | Chief Combustion Engineer UVa, Material Science Dept. | Advanced Materials Specialist IPM Lab | CEA of LNT Committee (804) 984-3789 | -SEMO International Racing Team *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:26:05 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... Glen Sprigg wrote: > > I will wait until I have heard from Bruce or someone else who can let me > know whether or not I'm allowed to do this. I will NOT be posting this > compliation on any web page; this is only for individuals. However, in the > meantime, let me know if you'd like a copy. I'll send them out all at once, > since the zip will probably be nearly half a meg in size or more. Have you checked with TSR about it posting the file on their site? If its okay with Bruce, I think that would be the best place for it :) - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:58:29 EDT From: ExTSR@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sundry Apologies to all for not breaking this into more digestible chunks, but my time is limited -- especially with GenCon around the corner. So pardon the omnibus. Chronological order. Andrew asked: > Were you still around when Dave Arneson got the chance to recreate his Blackmoor setting on Mystara? If so, did you have any correspondence with him on that, or any thoughts on his work in that regards? I was around at the time, but wasn't involved in that one, sorry. Sidebar again. I *did* happen to buy the original Blackmoor players' map from Rob Kuntz (co-DM of Greyhawk) many years back, tho. The players' map is the one the players made during the original Blackmoor campaign, showing various and sundry from their viewpoint and researches... a curiosity, and a relic of the Beginnings, you might say. 0-0-0-0-0 Mystaros elaborated: >Ibn Khaldun who first developed the concept of cyclical socio-political evolution (though not to the same degree as Spengler), in the _Muqaddimah_ As I recall (it's been quite a while) Khaldun was focused more on politics and less on cultural philosophy. But I could be utterly wrong here (I often am). 0-0-0-0-0 RMunch munched: > What happened to those adventures with Immortal plots Two problems. One, Immortal- and pre-Immortal level adventures are of limited appeal, and thus (from the corporate perspective) not worth investing the production costs, from design time onwards. Second, Immortal-level adventures are unusually challenging to write and play, and since most designers are unfamiliar with 'em, they require extensive playtesting. 0-0-0-0-0 Ambreville protested: > This is revealing. No such material was ever passed on to me. It figures. Yah, I'm familiar with some of the problems of the Dark Ages. When I left TSR in '86, my massive computer files (I had a large secured section of the mainframe computer's storage for my own use) contained not only 100% of everything I had ever written -- for the D&D line, AD&D adventures, RPGA modules, etc. etc. -- but additional commentary on its intended distribution (like advice to the D&D and AD&D line developers), rough notes on further developments, and so forth. Doubtless it was all pulled, archived, and ignored -- or merely erased. :( and Ambreville continued: > Actually, I had a question for you. Have you had a chance to use the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? Did you have any comments about it? Dark Ages effects again. I never received a copy of the Cyclopedia, and I haven't read it. From what I've heard, tho, a good job was done in grouping and reorganizing the boxed sets. It's often described as one of the best all- encompassing rule collections in print, for any game system. The organization of the boxed set materials was a problem all along; we knew it, of course, but the stuff HAD to be split up into the sets, so that produced inevitable problems... like all those "procedure notes" I cranked out, valuable advice yet split across 5 volumes and thus hard to find and apply unless you cut up the books and reorganized 'em yourself. Say, did they give me any credit in the Cyclopedia, or was Lorraine's revisionism all-encompassing? And are you still with TSR, or what? 0-0-0-0-0 Andrew followed up with... > Given that the Weapon Mastery was, I'm guessing, your design... Did you ever intend for the Weapon Mastery rules to be used for Unarmed Combat? Yes, I came up with the Weapon Mastery system, with the design goal of giving meaning to the weapons. It took a while to meld historical usage with the needs of the game, and to then work out a system giving EVERY weapon a use in which it excelled over all others. I was negatively inspired by AD&D, wherein you are offered all manner of pole arms -- all of which do basically the same thing. Absurd, and I vowed to correct it for the D&D game when I had the chance. Perhaps it was swiped for the AD&D game later on; I have no idea (and I do not keep track of the myriad Official AD&D Rulebooks). A version for Unarmed combat was on my to-do list during that era, but I simply ran out of time. Glad to hear somebody followed through; it was an obvious need. 0-0-0-0-0 Magesmiley asked, regarding maps and realities: > So what exactly were your original ideas? ...we would be very interested in hearing about your original vision for Mystara (or the Known World as it was then known). Well, first remember that was over 10 years ago. I'd have to go back and recheck my notes and such. But second... I'm a professional writer; if I can sell TSR on the concept of paying me to do some more work, I'd rather hold off and make you buy my ideas, rather than giving 'em away. ;> We'll see. (But the critical factor at present is that I simply don't remember right now, off the top of my head, enough to be meaningful in this forum.) 0-0-0-0-0 JamugaKhan comments: >Who else is worthy, if not the creator? Not the Creator, please. A mere developer, tho I was fortunate to have the opportunity to develop most of the foundation upon which this great palace of Mystara has been erected. 0-0-0-0-0 >Aaron Allston wrote the gazetteer "Dwarves of Rockhome", and the greatest part of it was good work... BTW, I don't want to start a crusade against Allston, but thinking about the forges thing just annoys me. Knowing Aaron somewhat, and knowing of his work somewhat, I'd venture a guess on this topic, albeit in my typically verbose style. I'd bet that Aaron ran out of time, and rushed part of the project to meet deadline. This is more common than many would believe; publishing IS a business, after all, whether it's game publishing or other. But Aaron is a pro, and he would find some way to make deadline regardless -- even if it hurt his own reputation somewhat in the process. I'm as guilty of this as any other writer. Luckily, when I wrote the D&D sets I was a Person Of Power at TSR -- senior aide to Gary Gygax and all that - -- so I could throw tantrums and get what I wanted. ;> Not that I ever DID, of course. (Shut up, Bruce. ;> ) So at TSR I almost always had enough time to do it right; when the Marketing Dudes screamed about how they had to have this product on thus-and-so-a-date, I'd Just Say No. ::snicker:: But here's a classic example of the flip side: at New Infinities, we scheduled a new SF game called Cyborg Commando. Gary developed the premise, and I got stuck with writing the whole thing -- without having time to do it right. As a result, about 1/4 of the game (or less) is in publishable form... and the rest is rough notes, prettied up a bit but very raw. We made deadline, but we should have pushed it back -- but we COULDN'T, we HAD to have the income. So off to the printer it went. A good GM can run a great game with that set (I did, as did many others when it first came out), but it takes work. (And I'm STILL proud of the one-roll combat system I invented.) ttfn -- Frank Mentzer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > They aren't called Modules anymore? (I remember when they cost $5 bucks, Woo hoo! $5 modules and $10-$15 boxed sets that came with dice and a crayon! Good luck finding *that* anymore. max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:54:13 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sundry >> So what exactly were your original ideas? ...we would be very interested in >hearing about >your original vision for Mystara (or the Known World as it was then known). > >Well, first remember that was over 10 years ago. I'd have to go back and >recheck my notes and such. But second... I'm a professional writer; if I can >sell TSR on the concept of paying me to do some more work, I'd rather hold off >and make you buy my ideas, rather than giving 'em away. ;> We'll see. (But >the critical factor at present is that I simply don't remember right now, off >the top of my head, enough to be meaningful in this forum.) Hello Frank It'd be enough at the moment to know that you at least did have _some_ ideas, even if it wasn't for every nation on the Masters boxed set map. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:21:36 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets > > Woo hoo! $5 modules and $10-$15 boxed sets that came with dice and a > crayon! > Dice and a crayon? My first set came with "randomizers" known as "chits", you cut 'em out, put 'em in bowls, and picked 'em out. We played with 'em once, then I went and bought some dice. My first dice were made of *very* poor plastic (they did come with a crayon, IIRC, which you used to "paint" the numbers), and they soon devolved into "marbles"... My next set was made out of better plastic, but poorly cast (so they "favored" certain results. My "lucky 20 sider" came out of this set, IIRC). After that, I only went for good, quality dice, and I still have some of what I got after that among my scattered collection. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:12:47 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > Dice and a crayon? yeah, basic and expert sets came with dice and a crayon. Companion came with just dice, and masters an Immortals came with just two books. But it was all well and good, since by the time i bought the masterrs and immortals boxes I had so many dice (including the $5 d100) That i couldn't keep track of them all! Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:44:10 EDT From: Mystaros@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sundry In a message dated 98-08-01 18:09:56 EDT, ExTSR wrote: << I was around at the time, but wasn't involved in that one, sorry. Sidebar again. I *did* happen to buy the original Blackmoor players' map from Rob Kuntz (co-DM of Greyhawk) many years back, tho. The players' map is the one the players made during the original Blackmoor campaign, showing various and sundry from their viewpoint and researches... a curiosity, and a relic of the Beginnings, you might say. >> I don't suppose you might be willing to bring a photocopy of that map to Gen Con for perusal, would you? Mystaros *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:41:36 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets In a message dated 98-08-01 20:16:58 EDT, you write: << yeah, basic and expert sets came with dice and a crayon. Companion came with just dice, and masters an Immortals came with just two books. But it was all well and good, since by the time i bought the masterrs and immortals boxes I had so many dice (including the $5 d100) That i couldn't keep track of them all! >> Hmmm I got jipped. My companion set didn't come with dice:( And I do still have my original dice from my first basic set still too (yellow and very rounded on the corners). - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:11:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: > Hmmm I got jipped. My companion set didn't come with dice:( > And I do still have my original dice from my first basic set still too (yellow > and very rounded on the corners). Yellow as in old, not as in coloration right? I thought all the old dice were of the same color scheme, namely- d4 - green in basic, red in expert d6 - lt. blue in basic, ? (over the years, I've taken to using dice from board games instead) d8 - lt. blue in basic, green in expert d10 - red d12 - lt. blue in basic, ? in expert d20 - lt. blue in basic (HIDEOUS shade IMO with light white crayon), orange in expert Just wondering, but what color were the other dice out there (I know all this is off-topic..)? Any really fancy colors or the basic dull shades? I've seen a number of neat dice in the years of gaming but most were specifically store-bought I believe. "The man who speaks softly does not need a big stick;and, if he yields to temptation and equips himself with one, the tone of his voice is very likely to change" - former Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan (D-Neb.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:08:32 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Games > Something interesting to add to this - I have a copy of the "first red box" > (?) for the D&D rules (the one that has B2 Keep on the Borderlands and one > rule book that is 3 ring punched). Included with it is an old 1981 TSR > catalouge, and besides the fact that this is a very interesting look into > the state of the whole product line back then, there is are entries for the > "Collector's Edition" of D&D, as well as both the 1st ed. AD&D products and > the D&D Basic set. Reading the entries for the Collector's edition has been > quite interesting, not to mention the fact that the two supplements for the > base set were "Greyhawk", primarily a combat rules and monster list > expantion according to the cataloge, and "Blackmoor" added the Monk and > Assasin classes, as well as a "sample dungeon" called (guess what?) "The > Temple of the Frog." Its extremely interesting to me to note that the Monk > and Assasin classes were in the original AD&D Player's Handbook, and, > apparently, a part of the "original" OD&D rules as well. Yes, but the "old" D&D resembled more to AD&D 1st Ed. than to "new" D&D. I assume that there were some fights in the ranks of TSR. Perhaps Gygax had his idea of D&D, but was convinced to reform it, only to switch it to AD&D later on. Frank Mentzer should know more about this theme. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #550 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, August 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 551 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Thieves Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Thieves [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:49:20 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: > And I do still have my original dice from my first basic set still too (yellow > and very rounded on the corners). Hmm. Am I the only one whose original basic dice are in top shape? (except for the D20, I stepped on it by accident, it's kinda a D25 now :) Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:51:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets > > Hmm. Am I the only one whose original basic dice are in top shape? (except > for the D20, I stepped on it by accident, it's kinda a D25 now :) > Hmmmmn. . .I'm begining to feel I was gyped even so: all I got with my basic set was the aforementioned chits (though I guess the rulebook would be worth something now. . .if I still had it. Unfortunately, it got "liberated" when a lot of my old junk was stolen*) *Side note on that was I eventually got 2/3 of the "boosted" stuff back, having located two of the three culprits. Never got anyone to fess up as to who the third was, but after the fact I kind of suspect that it was one of the dudes that "helped" me "find" the other two (no honor among thieves and all). At the time I was only a freshman in H.S., though, and I was just happy enough to exact revenge and recover what I did to look too deeply into the motives of a friend who may not have been such a friend after all. . . . . . . . To return a bit to the topic at hand, though, that *would* be a good con for a thief character to run (you and two *very* stupid buddies steal some goods from someone, then you "help" the target recover some of his lost property from your idiot buddies, while keeping your share of the loot. So long as your fellow thieves are too stupid and/or intimidated to rat you out, it may be the "perfect" crime, as who would suspect someone who helped solve it. . . . . . . .) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:54 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets In a message dated 98-08-02 16:15:31 EDT, you write: << Yellow as in old, not as in coloration right? I thought all the old dice were of the same color scheme, namely- >> Actually they were all yellow to begin with and came with a black crayon. The set I had was the 3 hole punched red book that came with B2. The expert set I got also was the 3 hole punched style and had an orange set of dice in it. The dice colors may have been changed in the newer editions since then (I got my basic set back in 1983 after all). - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:32:42 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantrian principalities In a message dated 1998-07-30 05:12:08 Eastern Daylight Time, hihama@uta.fi writes: > I find this also very weird. I can't believe even Etienne being immortal > that he could get so much power in mere 20 years he had in AC 1000. He > must have been prince longer before Castle Amber's disappearance in 896. > I stick to my earlier hypothesis that he becomes prince almost > immediately after Great School was opened in 875. > Also GAZ3 they say that the principality of Erewan was last > principality created in 884. So if we believe that Nouvelle Averoigne > must have been created before. Of course some of the contradictions go away if we assume that certain Glantrian principalities existed as independent states at the time that Glantri was founded -- in particular, Boldavia, New Averoigne, and the Elven Principality of Belcadiz. If this supposition is true, then 896 is not the date that Etienne attained power as a Prince but the date that his already existing Principality became part of Glantri. Clearly this change of status must have been highly controversial, and perhaps it formed some small part of the motivation in his assassination. And it seems likely that Prince Etienne had already achieved Immortality at that time, as the curse that befell his family at that point was clearly of Immortal power. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:43:19 -0700 From: Frank Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The compliation is almost complete... Hi! I'm interested! Thanks, Frank *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:20:18 -0700 From: Frank Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Hello! > I love Gaz10, totally made me love the humaniods. In other things I > can't be bothered with them and have humans as the bad guys, a race > of things that is evil but pathetic is boring IMHO (like what James > was saying about the laughable and rubbish Thyatis villian....) I too, just love GAZ10 and many more of the older products, but to be fair you have to judge equally. And there are just to few AD&D Mystara products to give a good judgment. I mean, I liked Mark of Amber and Night of the Vampire. And with the D&D modules were a few, shall we keep it friendly, 'weaker' ones too. Here I'm thinking of Quagmire and Death's ride, for example. If you look at the complete TSR AD&d/D&D lines, I have to agree that the older products are much more fun, though... Just my thoughts... Frank *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:41:48 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - of Maps & Realities >> I don't know that anyone >> even read my files on the subject that were left at TSR after my >>departure. >> > > >So what exactly were your original ideas? I think I speak for most of the >members of the list in saying we would be very interested in hearing about >your original vision for Mystara (or the Known World as it was then known). > Now there`s an understatement if ever there was one! Only very interested. That`s like getting Gods phone no. and only doing crank calls. Anyway is it me or do there seem to be more `heavy hitters` on this list than on others? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:58:01 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets > To return a bit to the topic at hand, though, that *would* be a good con >for a thief character to run (you and two *very* stupid buddies steal some >goods from someone, then you "help" the target recover some of his lost >property from your idiot buddies, while keeping your share of the loot. So >long as your fellow thieves are too stupid and/or intimidated to rat you >out, it may be the "perfect" crime, as who would suspect someone who helped >solve it. . . . . . . .) > Even better is 3 smart thieves who do this repeatedly in various areas of country. each will have a really good rep in the parts where they play the `good` guy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:55:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Thieves > > > Even better is 3 smart thieves who do this repeatedly in various areas > of country. each will have a really good rep in the parts where they > play the `good` guy > Hmmmn. . . .the problem would be avoiding gaol time and or bodily harm, but I'm sure that three smart thieves could think of a way to do that. Could also end up combining this scheme with the con from "For a Few Dollar's More", turning in your buddies, collecting the reward, then cutting the noose with a crossbow bolt, and ridding on to the next town. . . . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:55:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Thieves > > > Even better is 3 smart thieves who do this repeatedly in various areas > of country. each will have a really good rep in the parts where they > play the `good` guy > Hmmmn. . . .the problem would be avoiding gaol time and or bodily harm, but I'm sure that three smart thieves could think of a way to do that. Could also end up combining this scheme with the con from "For a Few Dollar's More", turning in your buddies, collecting the reward, then cutting the noose with a crossbow bolt, and ridding on to the next town. . . . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:31:30 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Anyone know a decent online site where Champions of Mystara (or any other Mystaran stuff) is up for grabs? I know posts have been bandied about on this topic for a while, but could someone mail me a URL... Cheerz Rob (I have a credit card!!!!!!!!!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 05:08:16 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Rob > Anyone know a decent online site where Champions of Mystara (or any other > Mystaran stuff) is up for grabs? > > I know posts have been bandied about on this topic for a while, but could > someone mail me a URL... There is a section of the MML home page devoted to links to online sources for Mystara products. http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html Leroy Van Camp III (Who is starting to wonder if anyone actually visits the MML home page, if I should even bother...). malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #551 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 552 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Great crater Gaz, final update! Re: [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 20:29:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Great crater Gaz, final update! Here's the last of my take on the Great Crater, c. 1015 AC. Finishing it off with the NPCs (both the last ones posted as well as my original ones, since I don't recall which I put up last time), and some new creatures for the Great Crater area. All that's left now are the two underground maps. which I'll hopefully have done soon... (start post) Saints and Scoundrels of the Great Crater Al-Nahmi, shaman of Thanatos and chief of Tombstone. (Th 14/Sh 9; Th 9Sh- S 15, I 10, W 16, D 9, Cn 17, Ch 13) Shortly after Thar led his legions out of the Broken Lands, in caverns far below, the thouls stirred. Driven by their shaman, Al-Nahmi, they roused themselves from their centuries of idleness and followed in the wake of the orc-king's legions. Though normally despised by other humanoids, the thouls were welcomed as comrades in arms against the hated Glantrians. Al-Nahmi led her people to the abandoned town of Lizzieni, where they remain to this day. There they prosper in the caverns and undead haunted hills of the former Principality of Caurenze. She is a follower of Thanatos, and seeks to spread his entropic ways among the surface world. She has few ties with any of the other humanoid leaders, save for the two goblin princes, Wart and Throng, who have made overtures of alliance with her recently. Blackie, Henchman of Ohr'r. (Bu 12/W 3; Bu 9F- S 15, I 12, W 9, D 18, Cn 10, Ch 8). Ohr'rs right hand bugbear is descended from a group of Ursus Bipedis Oriensis that were brought to Glantri many years ago at the behest of one of its nobles. Blackie (whose name, translated from Ochalean means, literally "Black Death"- Blackie is his nickname), served as a slave laborer in the gold mines of Belcadiz until the invasion of Glantri, when he and many of his kinsmen freed themselves and joined their humanoid cousins in their raids. Since then, the enigmatic figure has risen to prominence amongst the bugbears of Ohr'r. The tall, wiry, black and white bugbear cuts an exotic picture even amongst his kin, and the rumors of his mysterious mystical practices are often whispered about in hushed tones in the bars of Ohr'r. The legend of his singlehandedly (and weaponlessly) taking down a Glantrian patrol during the war only add to his mystique. Blackie handles administrative duties for Constable Ohr'r (such as they are among humanoids), and seems to be ever present at his chief's side. It is supposed that Ohr'r is grooming him to be his successor, rather than one of the chief's many lazy whelps. Regardless of the truth of this rumor, there is little doubt but that Blackie will be the next leader of Ohr'r. He has already permanently removed a number of upstarts who would be king- without the knowledge of Constable Ohr'r. Broknag the Sly, Advisor to Prince Kol, cleric of Wogar. (Go 10/8; Go 10T/8Sh- see PWA 1012) Broknag wormed his way into Kol's graces by presenting the kobold with Ludwig von Hendriks, his current military advisor. Since then, the goblin has used his influence to garner arcane secrets for himself, notably by taking control of the late Prince Volospin Aendyr's ruined manor. He has also attempted (unsuccessfully thus far) to worm his way into various legitimate sorceror's guilds and organizations in Glantri. He hopes to utilize such magical knowledge to advance the cause of the humanoids of the Great Crater, or at least help put them on a more equal footing with the rest of Glantri. Broknag is strongly dedicated to the humanoids of the Great Crater and to Kol (in that order), and thus is greatly disturbed by rumors he has heard about the Black Eagle's discontent with the current state of affairs... Bruun Halfwit, son of Kano Arrow's Whisper, (aka Simm of the Grasping Dark). (Go C25; Go P17 of Thanatos- S 13, D 8, Cn 14, I 8 (13), W 6 (18), Ch 10 (12). Statistics in parentheses are those of Simm in Bruun's body. Note that Simm is unique in his ability to surpass Goblin racial level limitations, and should be treated exactly as a human cleric/priest.) Like his father, Kano Arrow's Whisper, Bruun is a hulking figure of a goblin. As a child, he often came to the aid of his cousin, Throng Cracktooth, when the other goblins would taunt and beat him. Between Bruun's might and Throng's brains, no task seemed beyond the two goblins, and they quickly rose to positions of influence in their horde. Their relationship was such that, upon Throng's delvings into the secrets of their fathers, Bruun happily and heedlessly followed his cousin into what would ultimately be their ignominious end. The Immortal Thanatos, intrigued by the cousin's investigations, Magic Jarred the souls of his deceased servants, the Blood Brethren (see HWA1-3) into the bodies of the two young goblins. Then he released his minions into Glantri, to wreak chaos and misery upon that hated land. Currently the cleric Simm of the Grasping Dark possesses the body of Bruun. Together with his brother Koresh Teyd, he works to usurp the rulership of the humanoids of the Great Crater from its current batch of leaders. To this end, Simm has made contact with Al-Nahmi and her thouls, also followers of Thanatos. He also uses his powers and influence as Bruun Halfwit to convince the Goblinians that the time of Doth is past, and that new blood is needed to restore the goblins to their glory. He has noted, with wary eyes, Koresh Teyd's interest in the affairs of the Magocracy of Glantri. Chokk Trollgrinder, Chief of the Ogrelords. (Og 9; Og 9F- S18, I 9, W 7, D 12, Cn 16, Ch 9). Originally from the Orclands, Chokk left to join the Legion while still a youth, eventually becoming one of Thar's right hand men. When his former commander deserted his troops, he loyally gave his allegiance to the apparent successor, Prince Kol. His soldierly discipline served him in good stead when he was selected to serve with the Black Eagle in training Kol's horde. The Black Eagle was so impressed with the ogre that he suggested Chokk be chosen to whip the unruly hordes of the eastern hills into shape. Kol agreed and, with some assistance from the Prince and his military advisor, Chokk became chief of the new tribe of the Ogrelords. Chokk maintains regular diplomatic contact with Kol, to whom he has sworn his allegiance. As long as Kol remains in power, the kobold will have the services of the unambitious ogre. The ogre's control over the hodgepodge of hordes he commands is threatened by the denizens of New Threat, and he has appealed to Kol for assistance. He doesn't care overmuch for the Black Eagle, whom he resents losing command of the legion to. Doth, King of Goblinia. (Go 15; Go 8- see GAZ10) Doth was overjoyed at the death of his wife, Yazar, in 1010 AC- especially since it was the first assassination attempt to succeed against her bombastic majesty! He didn't have long to gloat, however, as his tribe fell to the military might of Kol's hordes shortly thereafter. Even the eventual capitulation to the kobold's rule by his hated rival Thar couldn't please Doth for long. Since then, the goblin king has brooded in his cavernous home, taking out his frustrations on his subjects and his orcish neighbors. His advisors resent him and feel he is responsible for their current plight, as the loss of Yazar's military genius was devastating to their war with the kobolds. Still fearful of their liege's rage, however, they simply content themselves to wait for the old goblin's impending death. Giovanni di Malapietra, 2nd Circle Earth Elementalist. (Wraith, HD 9**/9MU) Brother to Innocenti di Malapietra, Giovanni was slain during the events of the Great War. Like many of the inhabitants of the region impacted by the meteor, he arose from death, his malignant spirit returning in the form of a powerful wraith. Still endowed with his magical abilities, he quickly gathered an army of undead to his side, and attacked Manor Sirecchia, where his hated brother still lived, unaffected by the meteor. Though his army was destroyed- along with a number of his undead relatives enlisted to his cause-the attack was sufficient to drain much of Innocenti's strength and drive him further towards madness. The vengeful Giovanni would have rallied another strike, but for the misfortune of crossing paths with the thoul shamaness Al-Nahmi. Her clerical abilities enabled her to control the wraith, and he currently serves the thouls in Tombstone, often using his Earth Elementalist abilities to expand and modify their subterranean homes. He senses that Al-Nahmi is barely able to hold him in check, and constantly plots for the day when her control over him slips. That, and a desire to destroy Innocenti di Malapietra are all that drive this evil undead. Gorgath, the bargda ruler of New Threat. (16 HD Bargda- see Creature Catalog) Though larger and more ferocious than most of his kind, Gorgath shares his race's hatred of almost everything not bargda. He led his people down from their mountainous homes when the meteor impacted, determined that humans had caused the disaster. They took their revenge on the elvish viscounty of Nathrat, then joined in the raiding of Thar's humanoids. Since then, they have consolidated their control over their lowland homes, and brought giantish hordes in the area under their wing. Now they carry out a reign of terror over the hills of southern Glantri, upon both human and humanoid alike. Meanwhile, Gorgath hopes to include the ogrish races (and perhaps the trolls) in his dominion, and eventually carry out his schemes of revenge and destruction against the entire Glantrian populace. Innocenti di Malapietra, Viscount of Sirecchia, High Master of Earth Elementals, Former Prince of Caurenze and Viceroy of Ylourgne. (MU 17; H 13W- see GAZ3, PWA 1010-1012, G:KoM) Thought dead following the impact of the meteor in 1006 AC, the former Prince of Caurenze resurfaced years later, as he aided the sinister Dolores Hillsbury in a plot to assassinate Prince Jaggar's wife. Though his title of Viscount was restored to him, his influence was a mere fraction of what it once was. That, combined with hauntings Sirecchia Manor by his deceased relatives, has driven the already paranoid Innocenti into the depths of madness. Today, he rarely ventures forth from his home, even to participate in Parliamentary procedures. It is only a matter of time before he does something rash... Jaervosz Dustyboots, former Sheriff of Seashire. (Hf 8; Hf 8F/9T- see GAZ8, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac) Jaervosz Dustyboots, a longtime foe of the Black Eagle Baron, has come to the lands of the Great Crater in hopes of bringing von Hendriks to justice. Having abandoned his title of Sheriff, he acts without the legal jurisdiction of the Five Shires, but with his people's hopes and support nevertheless. He has recently taken up with Qenildor Erewan, with whom he has discovered a common, if not entirely identical, purpose. Both men see the Black Eagle as a key figure in the humanoids' organization, and are working together to achieve their goals. At the same time, the two are becoming fast friends, seeing qualities in one another that are very similar. Khorguul, chieftainess of Orcus Dominicus. (Or 12; Or 9F- S 14, D 14, Cn 11, I 13, W 9, Ch 17.) Khorguul nurses a strong hatred towards her distant relative, Thar. He killed her father during his bid for rulership of Orcus Rex, back in the Orcwars of 975 AC. In the years since then, she has grown to a position of power in the tribe, plans for revenge everpresent in her mind. When Thar bowed down before Kol in 1010 AC, the much impressed Khorguul offered her assistance and that of her horde to the kobold. The two of them worked to gradually dominate the other hordes in the region, and Khorguul rose to become the chieftain of the entire (renamed) tribe of Orcus Dominicus. She is wholly loyal to Prince Kol, and between his kobolds and her orcs, the two have managed to keep the hordes of the Great Crater in some degree of control. She has heard of Thar's efforts to the far east, and keeps a watch for the day when he might return... Kol XIV, Prince of New Kolland, Viscount of Blackstone, Viceroy of the Great Crater, King of the tribes of South Monsterland, High Doge of Kol. (Ko 26/ Wo 5; Ko 7Wd- see GAZ10, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The ambitious Kol managed to attain his current status due to the influence of powerful allies, but the tenuous nature of those alliances are beginning to show. His chief ally, Dolores Hillsbury (aka the Night Dragon, Synn) has begun to lose her sway in the political arenas of Glantri, and his advisors- notably the Black Eagle- are starting to play out their own agendas... which may or may not involve the kobold ruler. Thus far, his charismatic presence and position with the Council of Princes has allowed him to keep hold of his power, but that may not be enough. Unlike his predecessor, King Thar, Kol doesn't have the dominating personality that can keep other humanoid leaders in line. Together with his friend General Zar (and later with the Black Eagle) Kol's charismatic wheedling combined with his allies' military might was enough to influence the humanoids. Without the Black Eagle's strength, Kol may find himself gobbled up by the hordes he rules. He maintains diplomatic ties with most of the humanoids of the Great Crater region, and despises those that refuse to acknowledge his authority. He recently hit upon the tactic of issuing bounties on the heads of his rivals- under the guise of legal 'hunting licenses' for adventurers. He is well aware of the Black Eagle's superiority complex, and is not blind to Ludwig's practice of hiring human officers to command the legion. Ludwig von Hendriks, the Black Eagle, Military Advisor to Prince Kol, Commander of the Legion. (F 16; 13F- see GAZ1, PWA 1010-1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The former Karameikan baron has been hiding out in the Great Crater since 1011 AC, when he was rescued from the Five Shires by Broknag the Sly. Since that time, he has used his keen military mind (he worked with numerous humanoid hordes during his reign as a Karameikan baron) and contacts to train and supply the humanoid hordes of the Great Crater. Though far from the most efficient fighting force, they have benefited greatly from his leadership- most notably the well disciplined (for humanoids) kobolds. His efforts have been helped by the aid of his lieutenants, most veterans of Thar's Legion. He chafes under the rule of Prince Kol, however, viewing the kobold and his humanoids as inferior beings. The loss of his barony in Karameikos, combined with his current state, has severely embittered the man; the fact that non-magic users cannot achieve nobility in Glantri has only strengthened this feeling. Following his efforts during the Glantri-Ethengar war, he has achieved a notoriety among the Glantrian populace, and a degree of hero worship. He has recently been approached by the Followers of the Claymore, an underground movement decrying the magocracy. What ends he hopes to achieve by an alliance with them is unclear, but with the Black Eagle's reputation for double-dealing and treachery, it can't be good. Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany, Prince of Boldavia, Baron of Igorov, Viceroy of Tchernovodsk, High Master of Necromancy. (M 28 and Nosferatu; H 19W(n)- see GAZ3, PWA 1010- 1012, Joshuan's Almanac, G:KoM) The dread lord of Boldavia has taken an interest in the region of the Great Crater, though he has kept it hidden, using his usual subtlety. Ever since the events of the war, the region south of Glantri has been ripe with necromantic activity- an area that the nosferatu noble sees as his domain of control alone! For the moment, Morphail simply observes events in the area, not interfering. He views the undead-hungry thouls as a source of possible irritation for him, though a minor one. Mostly, he sees the area as a possible place for his expansionistic tendencies. More undead nobles under his control would help him consolidate his silent reign on Glantrian power... if only something could be done about all the clerics down there... Ohr'r, Constable of Ohr'r. (Bu 16; Bu 10- see GAZ10) The aging Ohr'r has taken to his new roles as constable and guildmaster of the Ohr'r branch of the Fellowship of the Pouch as if born to them. He spends most of his time counting through his enormous profits, and leaving the delegation of leadership to his assistant, Blackie. His only real concern is why his good friend, Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels, refuses to return any of his messages (Jaggar was instrumental in gaining Ohr'r his position as leader of the tribe of Bugburbia). Qenildor Erewan, Baron of Celedyl. (E10;E 9F/8W- see GAZ3, G:KoM) Sire Qenildor Erewan is the newest member of the Glantrian nobility, having been awarded a barony in late 1015 AC. Located on the site of the former Camp Huledain, Qenildor named his barony after his long lost father, Celedrin. Ever since his father's disappearance during a raid into the Broken Lands, Qenildor has nursed a hatred for the humanoids. His feelings have grown ever stronger in recent years, as his people suffered the most under the humanoid raids of 1007 AC. After fighting them as a renegade for years, he has finally decided to try fighting them within the confines of Glantrian law as well, by using his baronial influence. Unusually impatient for an elf, he is attempting to take a longer term view of things. Doubtless his burgeoning friendship with the halfling Jaervosz Dustyboots is coloring his attitude. Throng Cracktooth, son of Udan Axe-Thrower, grandson of Yazar grandson of Yazar (aka Koresh Teyd). (Goblin MU25; Goblin W/Nec 17- S 8, D 13, Cn 7, I 14 (18), W 12 (13), Ch 9 (10). Statistics in parentheses apply to Koresh Teyd in Throng's body. Note that Throng/Koresh is unique in his ability to surpass normal goblin racial level limitations- to progress as a wizard at all, in fact- and should be treated in all ways as a human magic user of the same level.) Prince Throng shares the canniness of his father, Udan Axe-Thrower. The slightly built young goblin was often beaten by his peers, one such incident resulting in the broken tusk that earned him his epithet. Throng studied all he could of his legendary father's illustrious (if short lived) exploits amongst the goblins of the Broken Lands. His interest was only heightened upon the advent of the migration to Glantri, the last known location of his father (see HWA1: Nightwail). Making contact with friends of his father's, he began the journey down a long, dark path that would ultimately claim his very soul. Dark investigations carried out by Throng and his cousin, Bruun, resulted in the Immortal Thanatos capturing their souls and replacing them with the reincarnated spirits of his greatest living servants. the Blood Brethren. Much as their fathers before them, Throng and his cousin were doomed to be pawns of a much greater evil. Today, Throng is wholly possessed by the spirit of Koresh Teyd, also known as the Nightkiller. A powerful mage, Koresh Teyd is slowly using his powers and charisma to undermine King Doth's authority amongst Goblinians, so that he and his brother Simm can take control of the goblins (and ultimately, the humanoids) of the Great Crater, and issue in a new reign of terror in the Known World. King Doth hardly suspects the weakly Throng capable of such a feat, and thus Koresh Teyd's work proceeds apace. Seeing the wokan Kol acknowledged as a legal ruler in Glantri, the more powerful Nightkiller is intrigued by the possibility of attaining his own dominion in the Principalities. Such an event would undoubtedly cause friction between himself and his cleric brother, Simm... Strange Things Among the many creatures found in the Great Crater region, there are some that are unique or unusual to the area. Ursus Bipedis Oriensis Average Size: 6' + d20 inches. Fitness (d6): 1-3: Skinny 4-5: Normal 6: Fat Long black fur with bands of white; face white with black around the eyes, giving the appearance of wearing a mask. Favor long, kimono style Ochalean clothing. Often practice strange, mystical martial arts. Nomads of the hills and forests of Ochalea. Spitting Worm (AC 6; MV 90'/30'; HD 6; Atk 1 spit; Dmg 2d8 spit or 2d4 bite; Spit: Save vs. Breath Weapon for 1/2 Dmg). See PWA 1012. - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:59:48 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - re: Glantrian principalities In a message dated 1998-07-30 11:41:53 Eastern Daylight Time, ohadshm@inter.net.il writes: > Question- is Laterre supposed to be real earth or somewhere very similar? Since D&D magic obviously does not work in the real world, Laterre would at best be very similar to the real earth. I like to equate Laterre with Gothic Earth (from "Masque of the Red Death") and the "legendary" versions of the various "HR" supplements. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:59:49 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics In a message dated 1998-07-31 01:24:26 Eastern Daylight Time, ExTSR@aol.com writes: > Poppycock, straining at gnats. > Ack! And sputter, cough, and gag. You mean nobody at TSR ever came up with > the Official Method of making a new Forge, even now (15 years after I made > the first one, you might say)? > > Say it ain't so. Please. Quote a reference if you do ... lest I be tempted > to Reveal All in this regard. > (Although I Am Not Worthy, either.) As you can see from the course of the discussion about Forges of Power, there is indeed no official word about how such a Relic is made. So please feel free to "Reveal All" -- obviously we can only make guesses otherwise. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:29:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! > > > Leroy Van Camp III > (Who is starting to wonder if anyone actually visits the MML home > page, if I should even bother...). > Oh, I'm sure it gets visited. I've been there, during less busy periods of life in general, that is. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:47:13 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! James Ruhland meandered fecklessly... > > Leroy Van Camp III did mutter furtively... > > (Who is starting to wonder if anyone actually visits the MML home > > page, if I should even bother...). > > > Oh, I'm sure it gets visited. I've been there, during less busy periods of > life in general, that is. 8-) Ohhh., don't mind my comment. I was extremely irritable when I got home today, and ended up typing that without thinking. Not that I don't feel it is true, sometimes. Not to pat myself on the back, but this is the only mailing list I have ever seen with any sort fo real official home page to help make the lives of its list members easier. The fact that I have recieved less than a half dozen comments on it tends to make me wonder why I do it sometimes. Enough of my self-pitying and whining... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:17:38 +0300 From: hihama@uta.fi Subject: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels Here is first part of my history of house of von Drachenfels. VON DRACHENFELS, part 1 Origins Von Drachenfels are old Hattian family. Their roots lie deep in Hattian history. They take part at the revolt in AC 313 and are one of its leaders. The survivors of the family escape to the Alasiyan colonies, where they lie down for years. During the next centuries they however rose to the position of leading Hattian family in the western part of the colonies. Migration Our story really begins after the leader of the family, Heinrich von Drachenfels, fell in a skirmish against Alasiyan nomads in AC 719. His 22 year old son Otto follows him as a leader for Hattians. Otto soon realises that the on going war against Alphatians and Alasiyans is losing battle, because the empire does not support colonies enough. He begins to look the way out of the situation. In 728 there spreads rumours about the rich and sparsely populated lands behind the mountains in the west in Flaemish Highlands. Otto begins to plan his followers migration there. Before he gets even started there comes a disaster in the Battle of Hedjazi, where Thyatian and Espadi forces are decimated. Otto is one of the few Thyatian leaders to survive from that battle. He immediately contacts other surviving leaders of the western colonies Herr Hans von Graustein, Lord Tiberio Glantri, Signor Giuseppe di Sfonti and Signor Cesare Fulvina and tells his plan to them. They are all been thinking about the same way to escape their troubles, so they begin immediately preparations for migration. The migration begins at the late fall and in early 729 they get to Selenica in Darokin. There they meet an other migration to Highlands. Traladaran refugees from the south at the leadership of Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany are on their way at the same direction. Leaders of the two migration think that its in the best interest of everyone if they travel together. After hard travel through the mountains refugees come to Highlands in early 830 and separate again. Traladarans move to the northeastern forests and hills were only few Flaemish outcasts are living. Kerendans at the leadership of Glantri settle between Isoile and Red River at the area of modern Hightower. Hattians at the leadership of von Drachenfels and von Graustein settle at the shores of Red River at the area of later Eriadna and Volnay. Thyatians at the leadership of di Sfonti and Fulvina settle between Red River and Arnus. First years in Highlands Herr Otto was tired man when he reach Highlands. He was very tired for fighting and only wanted to get some peace. He was cleric of Vanya but not very religious and not really any wartime leader. He had been leader of the migration, but only nominal. He made a wonderfull figurehead with his imposing frame and noble outlook, but real leaders were Tiberio Glantri and Hans von Graustein, and Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany after Selenica. Otto was very disappointed when frictions with the Flaems living in the settled area began almost immediately. Leaders of the Flaems made it very clear that the settlers were not wellcome. Otto tried to speak for peacefull settlement. But Tiberio, who had married Otto's sister Griselda during migration in 729, was adamant, they would not give an inch to the Flaems. Otto gave up and so frictions grow to skirmishing. Lord Tiberio fall in battle in 734 and settlers lose their only leader capable of uniting them. Otto gives up next year and makes a deal with local Flaems. They divide the area were Hattians have settled so that both sides are satisfied. Otto promises that would never settle across the Red River. Otto doesn't pay any attention to other settlers protests, he has get what he most wanted: peace. Otto concentrates now for building castle for himself and his family and the wellfare of his people. He is very much loved by Hattians as their savior from Alphatians and so the mourning is very deep when he dies in building accident in 740 at the of 43. Der Grosse Führer Otto's only son Joachim was only 20 when his father died, but he has already done an impression for other peoples. He was nearly 7 feet tall, robust and well-builded young man. He had alert and cunning eyes in an energetic face. He has great self-esteem and hotblooded nature. He was never in one place, he worked round the clock and after long day he drank wine more than one man normally does. And he had a dream: he saw himself as a King for united Highlands. To realise that dream Joachim was ready to continue peacefull policy towards Flaems. He also wanted to warm relations to Kerendans and their leaders. At first that went easy, he got well along with his cousin Claudio Glantri, they have been friends since childhood. There went 11 years without any great conflicties. Most dramatic happenings in those years was the coming of the Scots from some other world at the leadership of house McGregor. They settled at the foot of Colossus Mountais between rivers Fen and Til, where there were few other peoples living because of the climate. Their coming irritate Flaems, but not so much that the relations towards other groups were affected. Then 751 Joachim made a mistake. He married Luise van Agt, daughter of the one of the Flaemish dukes. Duke Rodolfus van Agt was the most conciliatory of the Flaemish leaders and Joachim hoped to ease tensions more with this marriage. He also hoped to get more power. He had made a big miscalculation. Other Flaems were furious to van Agt for allowing this to happen. Joachim's Thyatian and Kerendan allies think this only as a groveling towards the Flaems. Relations between Flaems and settlers deteorated rapidly. Skirmishes began again. And this time Hattians and Joachim von Drachenfels fought at the side of their settler allies. During next five years Joachim showed his brillant military skills. He had trained Hattian troops for excellent condition. When fighting again stopped in 756 everybody was willing to say that Joachim von Drachenfels was the best military leader in Highland area. Next years were happy for Joachim. He still dreamed about kingdom of his own, but now he was devoted to familylife. he loved his wife and 757 their son Sigmund was borned. Luise was also the only person who had any control to his husband. Joachim was now somewhat overweighted for much drinking and tired for over-working. During the 756-761 Joachim rested under his wifes watchfull eyes and got his youthfullness back. Then 761 came disaster:Luise died at chieldbed. Joachim was stricken with sorrow. He decided to concentrate to his dream again to get over the sorrow. Joachim begins to send envoys to the Flaemish archduke, to Morphail, to McGregors, to d'Ambrevilles, to elves and even to ethengarians living eastern side of Colossus Mountains. He proposes negotiations for building unified state from all the differing nationalities. He even get some negotiation going but without any results. Flaems don't want to share any of their power, ethengarians don't want to be in any dealings with flaems and so on. Joachim trias diplomacy for next eight years till 769 when he finally understands that its not going to work. During these years he adopts the white color, which had become sign of von Drachenfels. He dressed up at a white longhemmed coat, white leather trousers and big black leather boots. He also begin to feel first signs of gout. After 769 his plan is to unite only Hattians, Thyatians and Kerendans at first and then conquer the other areas. In 776 he finally get the leaders of the other two groups to sign a pact with him. In that pact leaders agree to make united front against other groups in Highlands. Others also agree that in any hostilities Joachim would lead their army. During these times Hattians began to call Joachim as Der Grosse Führer, not only for his political and military merits but also because his enormous size in these times, he weights over 150 kgs after over-eating and -drinking for past years. Now Joachim began provocations against the Flaems hoping that they would start a war. He is surprised by their patience. They take insult after insult until 784. In that spring he meet his brother-in-law Willem van Agt, they drink heavily and began to argue. Willem blames Joachim for Luise's death and Joachim strikes him death with one blow. Joachim was not intented to do anything like that, but now it was too late. Flaems were furious and declared war immediately. At first all went well for Joachim and his allies. They advanced to Flaems capital Braejr in 785, but there Joachims gout get so bad that he must stay in bed. In the following battle Flaems are victorious and the allies must again retreat south. Next year Joachim succeeds in negotiation with elves, they join the fight against Flaems. Other lucky strike comes at fall same year when Alphatian mage named Halzunthram contacts with Joachim and proposes his help. He can ally with Joachim and bring contingent of Alphatian battlemages with him. Joachim is at first suspicious, but when he thinks over is sure those troops might be just what he needed for winning. He is sure that Alphatians are no problem for him, he could kick them out after the war. During the next year Flaems are pushed step-by-step to north, until Flaurmont 17th 788 at the Battle of Braastar the Flaems are totally defeated. At the age of 68 Joachim is at the top of his career. As the un-disputed leader of the allied troops he accepts the surrender of Flaemish leaders. He was finally realising his dream. But no, only a few minutes after Flaemish surrender the excitement of the moment and the strains of the last decades take their toll. Joachim von Drachenfels' heart fails him in this historic moment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 05:30:46 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - on Demi-Human Relics In a message dated 1998-07-31 09:35:21 Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: > Well, there was the module CM6 "Where Chaos Reigns" which does have the > origins of both Trees of Life and Forges of Power--but for another world. In the > module, the trees are given to the elves as presents from treants. The dwarves get > their forges from a "hephaeston" ... a huge iron-skinned giant. Ah -- that idea certainly would work better than the one I had for the origin of new Forges of Power, and it would certainly provide a way of keeping the number of such Relics down (for I am still convinced that they cannot be too numerous). Since each Relic is in some sense "alive", there must be some "natural" process by which each of the demi-human Relics are created. For the Tree of Life and the Crucible of Blackflame the process of creating a new Relic from an old one seems to be fairly obvious -- but there seems to be no obvious way to use a forge to make another forge. However, the Hephaestons do provide a way out. Since Hephaestons basically manufacture their offspring, it seems possible that they also manufacture Forges of Power to serve as the "wombs" of baby Hephaestons. Once a Forge of Power has been used in this manner, it is of no further use to Hephaestons -- but they can be persuaded to trade it to Dwarven adventurers in exchange for other considerations. With their 500+ year life spans and relatively low fertility rates, it would seem that Hephaestons would not make very many Forges of Power -- but they would make just enough to account for all of the dwarven colonies of the Known World. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:19:17 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Leroy, if I have never commented on how wonderful your site is, then I am deeply sorry. I have used it on many occassions to look up a member or a member's site. Sometimes I even use it to find my own writing... *bashful grin* Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > James Ruhland meandered fecklessly... > > > Leroy Van Camp III did mutter furtively... > > > > (Who is starting to wonder if anyone actually visits the MML home > > > page, if I should even bother...). > > > > > Oh, I'm sure it gets visited. I've been there, during less busy periods > of > > life in general, that is. 8-) > > Ohhh., don't mind my comment. I was extremely irritable > when I got home today, and ended up typing that without thinking. > Not that I don't feel it is true, sometimes. > Not to pat myself on the back, but this is the only mailing list > I have ever seen with any sort fo real official home page to > help make the lives of its list members easier. The fact that > I have recieved less than a half dozen comments on it tends > to make me wonder why I do it sometimes. > Enough of my self-pitying and whining... > > Leroy Van Camp III > malacoda@lesbois.com > owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com > ICQ #14585470 > > "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." > MST3K > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:16:34 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets > >On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: > >> Hmmm I got jipped. My companion set didn't come with dice:( >> And I do still have my original dice from my first basic set still too (yellow >> and very rounded on the corners). > >Yellow as in old, not as in coloration right? I thought all the old dice >were of the same color scheme, namely- > >d4 - green in basic, red in expert Mine from basic was green, too. >d6 - lt. blue in basic, ? (over the years, I've taken to using dice from >board games instead) Green from basic as well. >d8 - lt. blue in basic, green in expert Mine is green. >d10 - red Whoa! Mine's lt. brown! >d12 - lt. blue in basic, ? in expert Mine's yellow. >d20 - lt. blue in basic (HIDEOUS shade IMO with light white crayon), >orange in expert Mine's green. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #552 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, August 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 553 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets [MYSTARA] - The compilation Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - OD&D (was Miscellany) Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! [MYSTARA] - Last question for Frank Mentzer Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 2 [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 1 Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets SteelAngel wrote: >Hmm. Am I the only one whose original basic dice are in top shape? (except >for the D20, I stepped on it by accident, it's kinda a D25 now :) > >Max IV > All of my venerable dice are in mint condition, and my crayon has never been used. I realized that these would become relics at some future time, so I have taken good care of 'em. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:15:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - The compilation Wow! The response has been impressive; it's nice to know that my hard work is appreciated :-) I've had 27 requests for the compilation, including, believe it or not, one from Bruce (all hail!) Heard himself! However, while Bruce has no problem with me doing this, he tells me that WotC/TSR actually hold the rights to the articles, so I have to check with them first. I've E-mailed them, and I'm just waiting for their go-ahead. Be patient, people...it won't be much longer now, assuming they say I can do this. If not, they might be willing to post it up on the OOP or Goodies page for Mystara. Here's hoping! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:01:31 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany In a message dated 1998-07-31 12:45:37 Eastern Daylight Time, gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie writes: > Before Rob writes back to extoll the virtues of AD&D (he always has > better arguments than me :) ), I'd like to add that I think that most > of my objections to AD&D are due to unfounded bias from my early > years of playing and the lack of anything impressive for Mystara in > AD&D. I think that a lot of arguments could be made for why one is > better than the other, but I'll stick with OD&D. And Unix :) I think that I could make one generalization about Mystara and AD&D: When it adds something to the game world (such as previously "forbidden" race/class combinations), it has the potential to enrich the game world. However, when it is used as an excuse to take away something that is part and parcel of Mystara (such as Kol's being a "wokan" -- basically a Fighter/Mage in AD&D terms), then it can only do damage. I suspect that most of the bad taste that AD&D leaves in the mouths of Mystara fans comes from such abuses as those inflicted on Kol -- he should have been depicted as a Kobold Fighter/Mage and not as any sort of Priest or Shadow Elf, as both of these concepts radically change his character. Much more could and should have been done to maintain the uniqueness of Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:31:58 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OD&D (was Miscellany) In a message dated 1998-07-31 19:01:34 Eastern Daylight Time, megst19+@pitt.edu writes: > There are quite a number of D&D fans out there (esp. on this list), but > why would we be dwindling in number? We aren't that old that we're likely > to pass away anytime soon and we've stuck with the system for years since > it was given up by TSR, showing dedication and persistence that will IMO > keep it as the system of choice for many Mystara fans for some time to > come. The number of D&D fans would dwindle as they lose interest (I assume that very few are dying) and there are few if any new D&D fans to replace them. Why would there be few new fans? Just try to find a copy of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia -- it is very hard to come by. The gazetteers and creature crucibles are even harder to find. Unless this situation is remedied, the number of D&D fans is doomed to decline steadily over the years. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:25:21 -0500 From: "Chris Montgomery" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! For Leroy Van Camp III: I just wanted to put in that, as a newbie (to Mystara on the web at least), your home page has been of immense use. It made things much easier to understand. On a Mystara Note: Can anyone tell me which product contained the best map of the entire known world? Where I could get such map? Thanks, CMonty (insert cute quote here) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 00:25:01 EDT From: DrklngMuse@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Leroy, I am sure that everyone would agree that the Home page is a real asset. I can understand why you feel it is unappreciated. There are a lot of lurkers on the list like my self, that barely have time to read our e-mail let alone write to the list. We do however love Mystara, the list, and the pages of work on all the web pages. Thanks for making our Mystara richer and more enjoyable. Ryan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 21:30:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Chris Montgomery wrote: > On a Mystara Note: Can anyone tell me which product contained the best map > of the entire known world? Where I could get such map? Of the entire golbe (inside and out) of Mystara- the HOllow World Boxed Set. Of the Known World itself (ie, Thyatis and Gazetteer nations)- the Trail Maps (TM1 and TM2), or else the Rules Cyclopedia. All of these should be available from online stores. Try the Dragon's Trove at http://www.dragontrove.com - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 21:43:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Last question for Frank Mentzer I mean it this time! :) We here on the list have discussed the issue before, and also with Bruce, but I'm curious to hear your take on this matter: The concept of the Immortals. When you created them, and later expanded upon them in the Gold Box, they seemed to be less "Gods", in the AD&D near-omnipotent manner, and mor "Superhuman" legendary heroes. Later Mystara products sort of vacillated on this issue, from GAZ1, where Aaron Allston presents a few legendary figures, all the way to the revised Immortals set, by which time the idea of the Immortals is widely known among Mystaran socieites, and they occupy roles similar to the AD&D gods. Even writers seemed a bit unsure where to place them, such as the aforementioned Allston, who makes them more godlike and intrusive in his later works than in his earlier works (not to be taken as a bag against Allston, I hope). How did you envision the Immortals and their role in things? From their first introduction, of sorts, in the Companion and Masters sets, they seem far removed from mankind, mere legends, and certainly not looked upon as being gods who ovresee the progress of man, but later portrayals differ greatly. Just wondering what your thoughts were. :) - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:25:33 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany >> Before Rob writes back to extoll the virtues of AD&D (he always has >> better arguments than me :) ), I'd like to add that I think that most >> of my objections to AD&D are due to unfounded bias from my early >> years of playing and the lack of anything impressive for Mystara in >> AD&D. I think that a lot of arguments could be made for why one is >> better than the other, but I'll stick with OD&D. And Unix :) > >I think that I could make one generalization about Mystara and AD&D: > >When it adds something to the game world (such as previously "forbidden" >race/class combinations), it has the potential to enrich the game world. > >However, when it is used as an excuse to take away something that is >part and parcel of Mystara (such as Kol's being a "wokan" -- basically >a Fighter/Mage in AD&D terms), then it can only do damage. > >I suspect that most of the bad taste that AD&D leaves in the mouths >of Mystara fans comes from such abuses as those inflicted on Kol -- >he should have been depicted as a Kobold Fighter/Mage and not as >any sort of Priest or Shadow Elf, as both of these concepts radically >change his character. Much more could and should have been done >to maintain the uniqueness of Mystara. Lol. I never really thought about Kol much, kobold or otherwise. BTW - which came first, G:KoM or the PWAs? I was aggravated by Emilio the Great not being a bard. And Bargle has advanced a bit since the basic set! (Is King Koryn the Harpist a bard, do you think?) (I do like the way that Mystaran mages are comparable to other worlds mages. With all that First Quest patronisation I almost expected the Glantrians to all be around level 5... But no!) *short rant on AD+D Mystara* Comparing AD+D Mystara to other AD+D worlds, I still think that the rulz that Mystara has are generally a lot better than other worlds. Red Steel has a good range of kits (no obscenely foul ones, either) which has practically become the Gospel of Kits IMC. Glantrian circles are powerful, but they really do add character to a mage. I don't mind skills and stuff which makes a character harder, as long as it adds character. Check out the Halruann Wizard of the Realms. (He gets +4 to saves, and -4 to enemy saves, "because he is from Halruaa"). IMHO thats a classic example of dull, lifeless game mechanic. On the other hand, a Cryptomancer is more powerful than a conventional mage - but being a cryptomancer really gives him some depth - which is good. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:00:09 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 2 40-years war Leaders of the allied troops are dumpfounded, they don't know what to do. There is noone else to assume Joachim's position. His 31-year old son Sigmund don't have any of his fathers leadership qualities. He is slim, weasel-looking man, who enjoys feasting and celebrations. He looks like clown compared to his father. Titus Glantri and Ottone di Sfonti, two most prominent among other leaders both lack the charisma of Joachim von Drachenfels. They both know that Joachim would have declared himself as a king of Highlands, but they realise that noone else could do that. So together with Sigmund they decide to call leaders of the elves and the Flaems for secret negotiations for the future. They left Halzunthram out because they assume that he is anyway leaving the area after the war. In the negotiations all parties agree to establish Republic of Highlands. The Flaems withdraw all claims to the lands south of Isoile and Fen rivers and all lands east of Vesubia and Fen rivers go the elves. They also agree to establish a council composed of 3 Flaems, 2 elves, 1 Kerendan, 1 Thyatian and 1 Hattian to rule the country. Everyone is happy except for Halzunthram, he had no intention to leave Highlands and now he feels that he had been betrayed. Halzunthram had one ace in the sleeve that the others don't know. Sigmund von Drachenfels is totally under his control. Sigmund looks Halzunthram as just the man he likes to be: cultivated, sophisticated, good looking, superior intelligence, etc. With Sigmunds help Halzunthram captures the council when it meets first time. He declares Highlands as an Alphatian colony and himself governor. The response was immediate. Elves declared their independence and the Flaems revolted. Sigmund left his whole army to the leadership of Halzunthram. He stay at home to entertain other Hattian and Thyatian nobles and to hunt. He had no intention to take any part at the warfare. Halzunthram was importing more troops from Alphatia so Sigmund thought that with his Hattians it would take only couple of years to beat the Flaems again. When the war was prolonged and Halzunthrams demands from Thyatian and Kerendarian began to grow Sigmund was only leader who didn't speak against Halzunthram and when Thyatians and Kerendans in 796 join the Flaems in revolt Sigmund keep his Hattians at Halzunthrams side. At the spring of 801 Halzunthram declared that the rebels are vanquished. He began to divide country to his followers and to give titles to them. For Sigmund he offers the position of Count of Ritterburg, but in condition that he removes his house and Hattian followers to the area west of Aalban river in the north. He wants the area were Hattian have been living for himself. For other Hattians great surprise Sigmund agrees and for the last of the year Hattians back their things and early next year move to the area designated to them. In 802 revolt gets more momentum again. Rebels have been negotiating with elves and ethengarians living eastside of Colossus Mountains and in that year ethengarians agree to join to fight against Halzunthram. Rebels have promised them area in the west side of mountains if they win. They have also been negotiating with Etienne d'Ambreville in the west and with Morphail in the northeast, but they both decide to stay out of this fighting. Also scots, who have retreated to the mountains dont want take any part of these happenings. Now Halzunthrams troops are divided Hattians are in the north and Alphatians in the south. Sigmund stays still out of the fighting , he is happy with his new hunting grounds in Wendarian Mountains. During next two years rebels slowly beat Halzunthrams troops back. Then in 804 Halzunthram realises that he have fresh troops in dwarves, who have been rushed in Highlands after gold findings in 802. In that same year there spread also plague to the area. Most peoples blame dwarves for that because it doesn't affect them, but Halzunthram couldn't care less. He informs the dwarves that he allows them to stay if they join his armies. With the help of dwarves the fighting go at the stalemate situation. During the next year either side get no new ground. Until 806 when the elves finally join the fight, because of the dwarves fighting for Halzunthram. So Halzunthram had to bring again more troops from Alphatia to compensate the situation. There had grown whole new generation of people who had seen nothing but war. Old leaders popularity among these is very low. First one from this generation to emerge is Wilhelm von Drachenfels. Sigmund dies at the age of 56 in a hunting accident, when he fels from his horse in the mountains. 25-year old Wilhelm is his fathers opposite in many respects. He is somewhat plump and don't like parties. He is seriousminded, devouted follower of Vanya and had been taken part of the fighting since he was 16. He informs his fathers hunting- and partingpartners that there is war going on and that he expects them to come back next morning with fighting equipments. Wilhelm doesn't like the war and he doesn't like Halzunthram but for present he continues to fight for him. But in the secret he contacts the rebelleaders and began to negotiate with them for terms for him switching the side. Negotiations are hard because rebels don't trust him and he must also keep them secret from Halzunthram. Wilhelm succeeds in this doubleplay for seven years. Then in 820 the information leeks to Halzunthram, who is furios. Halzunthram has been trusting him all the time, he had even married his niece Charlana to Wilhelm in 811 to keep him in his side. Wilhelm now openly switch to rebels side. Next year also Morphail and his Traladarans join the fight against Halzunthram and some of the Alphatians also switch side tired for Halzunthrams promises for quick ending of war. These two years are decisive for the war. Now its only downhill for Halzunthram, but with the fresh Alphatian troops he can continue fighting still for six years. Then in 828 Lord Alexander Glantri, who has become leader of the coalition ambushes and kills Halzunthram. t:Harri M{ki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:02:32 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 1 Here is first part again, because I'm not sure it get through yesterday. Origins Von Drachenfels are old Hattian family. Their roots lie deep in Hattian history. They take part at the revolt in AC 313 and are one of its leaders. The survivors of the family escape to the Alasiyan colonies, where they lie down for years. During the next centuries they however rose to the position of leading Hattian family in the western part of the colonies. Migration Our story really begins after the leader of the family, Heinrich von Drachenfels, fell in a skirmish against Alasiyan nomads in AC 719. His 22 year old son Otto follows him as a leader for Hattians. Otto soon realises that the on going war against Alphatians and Alasiyans is losing battle, because the empire does not support colonies enough. He begins to look the way out of the situation. In 728 there spreads rumours about the rich and sparsely populated lands behind the mountains in the west in Flaemish Highlands. Otto begins to plan his followers migration there. Before he gets even started there comes a disaster in the Battle of Hedjazi, where Thyatian and Espadi forces are decimated. Otto is one of the few Thyatian leaders to survive from that battle. He immediately contacts other surviving leaders of the western colonies Herr Hans von Graustein, Lord Tiberio Glantri, Signor Giuseppe di Sfonti and Signor Cesare Fulvina and tells his plan to them. They are all been thinking about the same way to escape their troubles, so they begin immediately preparations for migration. The migration begins at the late fall and in early 729 they get to Selenica in Darokin. There they meet an other migration to Highlands. Traladaran refugees from the south at the leadership of Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany are on their way at the same direction. Leaders of the two migration think that its in the best interest of everyone if they travel together. After hard travel through the mountains refugees come to Highlands in early 830 and separate again. Traladarans move to the northeastern forests and hills were only few Flaemish outcasts are living. Kerendans at the leadership of Glantri settle between Isoile and Red River at the area of modern Hightower. Hattians at the leadership of von Drachenfels and von Graustein settle at the shores of Red River at the area of later Eriadna and Volnay. Thyatians at the leadership of di Sfonti and Fulvina settle between Red River and Arnus. First years in Highlands Herr Otto was tired man when he reach Highlands. He was very tired for fighting and only wanted to get some peace. He was cleric of Vanya but not very religious and not really any wartime leader. He had been leader of the migration, but only nominal. He made a wonderfull figurehead with his imposing frame and noble outlook, but real leaders were Tiberio Glantri and Hans von Graustein, and Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany after Selenica. Otto was very disappointed when frictions with the Flaems living in the settled area began almost immediately. Leaders of the Flaems made it very clear that the settlers were not wellcome. Otto tried to speak for peacefull settlement. But Tiberio, who had married Otto's sister Griselda during migration in 729, was adamant, they would not give an inch to the Flaems. Otto gave up and so frictions grow to skirmishing. Lord Tiberio fall in battle in 734 and settlers lose their only leader capable of uniting them. Otto gives up next year and makes a deal with local Flaems. They divide the area were Hattians have settled so that both sides are satisfied. Otto promises that would never settle across the Red River. Otto doesn't pay any attention to other settlers protests, he has get what he most wanted: peace. Otto concentrates now for building castle for himself and his family and the wellfare of his people. He is very much loved by Hattians as their savior from Alphatians and so the mourning is very deep when he dies in building accident in 740 at the of 43. Der Grosse Fuhrer Otto's only son Joachim was only 20 when his father died, but he has already done an impression for other peoples. He was nearly 7 feet tall, robust and well-builded young man. He had alert and cunning eyes in an energetic face. He has great self-esteem and hotblooded nature. He was never in one place, he worked round the clock and after long day he drank wine more than one man normally does. And he had a dream: he saw himself as a King for united Highlands. To realise that dream Joachim was ready to continue peacefull policy towards Flaems. He also wanted to warm relations to Kerendans and their leaders. At first that went easy, he got well along with his cousin Claudio Glantri, they have been friends since childhood. There went 11 years without any great conflicties. Most dramatic happenings in those years was the coming of the Scots from some other world at the leadership of house McGregor. They settled at the foot of Colossus Mountais between rivers Fen and Til, where there were few other peoples living because of the climate. Their coming irritate Flaems, but not so much that the relations towards other groups were affected. Then 751 Joachim made a mistake. He married Luise van Agt, daughter of the one of the Flaemish dukes. Duke Rodolfus van Agt was the most conciliatory of the Flaemish leaders and Joachim hoped to ease tensions more with this marriage. He also hoped to get more power. He had made a big miscalculation. Other Flaems were furious to van Agt for allowing this to happen. Joachim's Thyatian and Kerendan allies think this only as a groveling towards the Flaems. Relations between Flaems and settlers deteorated rapidly. Skirmishes began again. And this time Hattians and Joachim von Drachenfels fought at the side of their settler allies. During next five years Joachim showed his brillant military skills. He had trained Hattian troops for excellent condition. When fighting again stopped in 756 everybody was willing to say that Joachim von Drachenfels was the best military leader in Highland area. Next years were happy for Joachim. He still dreamed about kingdom of his own, but now he was devoted to familylife. he loved his wife and 757 their son Sigmund was borned. Luise was also the only person who had any control to his husband. Joachim was now somewhat overweighted for much drinking and tired for over-working. During the 756-761 Joachim rested under his wifes watchfull eyes and got his youthfullness back. Then 761 came disaster:Luise died at chieldbed. Joachim was stricken with sorrow. He decided to concentrate to his dream again to get over the sorrow. Joachim begins to send envoys to the Flaemish archduke, to Morphail, to McGregors, to d'Ambrevilles, to elves and even to ethengarians living eastern side of Colossus Mountains. He proposes negotiations for building unified state from all the differing nationalities. He even get some negotiation going but without any results. Flaems don't want to share any of their power, ethengarians don't want to be in any dealings with flaems and so on. Joachim trias diplomacy for next eight years till 769 when he finally understands that its not going to work. During these years he adopts the white color, which had become sign of von Drachenfels. He dressed up at a white longhemmed coat, white leather trousers and big black leather boots. He also begin to feel first signs of gout. After 769 his plan is to unite only Hattians, Thyatians and Kerendans at first and then conquer the other areas. In 776 he finally get the leaders of the other two groups to sign a pact with him. In that pact leaders agree to make united front against other groups in Highlands. Others also agree that in any hostilities Joachim would lead their army. During these times Hattians began to call Joachim as Der Grosse Ft:hrer, not only for his political and military merits but also because his enormous size in these times, he weights over 150 kgs after over-eating and -drinking for past years. Now Joachim began provocations against the Flaems hoping that they would start a war. He is surprised by their patience. They take insult after insult until 784. In that spring he meet his brother-in-law Willem van Agt, they drink heavily and began to argue. Willem blames Joachim for Luise's death and Joachim strikes him death with one blow. Joachim was not intented to do anything like that, but now it was too late. Flaems were furious and declared war immediately. At first all went well for Joachim and his allies. They advanced to Flaems capital Braejr in 785, but there Joachims gout get so bad that he must stay in bed. In the following battle Flaems are victorious and the allies must again retreat south. Next year Joachim succeeds in negotiation with elves, they join the fight against Flaems. Other lucky strike comes at fall same year when Alphatian mage named Halzunthram contacts with Joachim and proposes his help. He can ally with Joachim and bring contingent of Alphatian battlemages with him. Joachim is at first suspicious, but when he thinks over is sure those troops might be just what he needed for winning. He is sure that Alphatians are no problem for him, he could kick them out after the war. During the next year Flaems are pushed step-by-step to north, until Flaurmont 17th 788 at the Battle of Braastar the Flaems are totally defeated. At the age of 68 Joachim is at the top of his career. As the un-disputed leader of the allied troops he accepts the surrender of Flaemish leaders. He was finally realising his dream. But no, only a few minutes after Flaemish surrender the excitement of the moment and the strains of the last decades take their toll. Joachim von Drachenfels' heart fails him in this historic moment. Harri M{ki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:01:14 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > Leroy Van Camp III > (Who is starting to wonder if anyone actually visits the MML home > page, if I should even bother...). I do!! I do!!! I can never remember all these links to people's pages. I just use the Lord Leroy's link list. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #553 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, August 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 554 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Re: [MYSTARA] - Mountains Re: [MYSTARA] - Announcement. [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:06:31 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Chris Montgomery wrote: > On a Mystara Note: Can anyone tell me which product contained the best map > of the entire known world? Where I could get such map? Master's set had the *best* map. the next best would either be in the RC OR the HW boxed set. However, the are known as Yalu bay in those maps is accidentaly colored Green instaed of Blue (OOPS!!!!) Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:09:22 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Miscellany On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > Lol. I never really thought about Kol much, kobold or otherwise. BTW - > which came first, G:KoM or the PWAs? The PWA's I beleive. And Joshuan makes passing reference to Kol's Priestly spells being a prickly point with Glantri's other princes. Max IV - I have all my D&D stuff right here now :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:51:59 -0500 From: "Chris Montgomery" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! Thanks all for the info. I am using CC2 to try and do some nice maps of the known world using Published maps and hopefully Maps by persons on this list. Any info on available maps would be appreciated. Hopefully I will have a web site up soon to which I will post these maps. The first will be Karameikos. I just have to figure out what to do with all those mountains! I hate that thick band of mountains and want to make it more Esthetic as well as more detailed. Again thanks! CMonty "Life, don't talk to me about life......" (Marvin the Paranoid Android) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:00:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mountains > > those mountains! I hate that thick band of mountains and want to make it > more Esthetic as well as more detailed. Again thanks! > Yah know, one thing about mountain ranges is they aren't all peaks, there are usually plenty of vales and valleys, and plateaus. Once the scale becomes smaller, you can slip these in. The Glantri map is pretty good regarding this (the Wendar Range has several such areas). Sliping settlements and/or lairs into such places is, of course, de rigur. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:57:06 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Announcement. today i successfully uploaded and sent the Randel Gaz. All 88 pages of it. I opted to hold back the military description material and include it the first Addendum. I think it will be put online at one of the Mystara site so it will eventually be available to the masses. i did get a bounce from mktriton and lately i have been seeing jamugakhan use two different email addresses. so jamuga check your aol mail. anyway just thought i'd get that out. alex *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:22 EDT From: Solarix@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Hi I'll try not to drone (have a tendency to do that on my first few posts somewhere). I'm going to run an ODnD campaign and I was wondering if the Glantri Gazetteer dealt with mages that used the Radiance if not does any other ODnD book. If there no ODnD books that have rules for radiance using mages then any ideas on how to adapt the ADnD rules. One final thing I'd like to here peoples opinions on how the Radiance (and Nucleus of the Spheres) was changed by Wrath of the immortals. Who'd it still make Energy Immortals is it still a artifact of energy (seems like it whould be if it is still affecting magic according to the ADnD Glantri.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:20:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance Hi Solarix. There are rules for using the radience in OD&D, and I belive they are about the same as the AD&D ones. There has been several discussions on the New Radience, and you can probably find more about that in the archive on Shawn Stanleys page. (I dont remember the URL right now..) IMO, the Radience now produces Immortals of Entrophy. Also, according to Bruce Heard who wrote the original Glantri Gaz, the Nucleus should no longer be affecting magic, but Entropy. (Ie it is an artifact of Entropy). Hope this helps. Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc/mystara.html "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:32:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance > Hi I'll try not to drone (have a tendency to do that on my first few posts >somewhere). I'm going to run an ODnD campaign and I was wondering if the >Glantri Gazetteer dealt with mages that used the Radiance if not does any >other ODnD book. Only the Glantri Gazeteer of the old books deals with the radiance. It gives the spells they can use etc, as I recall it's pretty similar to the stuff in Glantri:Kingdom of Magic (I hate that title, it's not a kingdon!!!! :) ) In my opinion the spells it gives aren't really that great, I'd like to see the radiance used for bigger and better things, make it a force to be rekoned with! (Although allowing you to become immortal aint a power to be sniffed at :) ) >If there no ODnD books that have rules for radiance using >mages then any ideas on how to adapt the ADnD rules. One final thing I'd like >to here peoples opinions on how the Radiance (and Nucleus of the Spheres) was >changed by Wrath of the immortals. Who'd it still make Energy Immortals is it >still a artifact of energy (seems like it whould be if it is still affecting >magic according to the ADnD Glantri.) Yeah, according to the ADnD book the magic drain is still increasing! I'd rule that as a typo, assume the magic level isn't going to drop any from it's current "One day per year without magic" level. And it should create Entropic Immortals, increasing entropy in that specific area, while robbing entropy from the rest of the world. Hey, maybe that's how the NACE is doing so well...it's further from Glantri than Thyatis is :) :) There's a fuller discussion about the radiance at http://seija.ucd.ie/dnd/spoilers/nucleus.html gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:49:56 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance > > Hi I'll try not to drone (have a tendency to do that on my first few posts > somewhere). I'm going to run an ODnD campaign and I was wondering if the > Glantri Gazetteer dealt with mages that used the Radiance if not does any > other ODnD book. > The Glantri Gaz does indeed deal with the Radiance, using it, and it's effects. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:45:31 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance >In my opinion the spells it gives aren't really that great, I'd like >to see the radiance used for bigger and better things, make it a >force to be rekoned with! (Although allowing you to become immortal >aint a power to be sniffed at :) ) My thoughts indeed! In fact, ive already much increased the number of Radiance spells floating around (including some really overpowering, scary stuff - the Radiance is supposed to be All Powerful Magic, after all). Once I can dig it out amidst my chaos that is a hard drive - ill post it. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:22:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Radiance I said: >>In my opinion the spells it gives aren't really that great, I'd like >>to see the radiance used for bigger and better things, make it a >>force to be rekoned with! (Although allowing you to become immortal >>aint a power to be sniffed at :) ) And Rob agreed >My thoughts indeed! In fact, ive already much increased the number of >Radiance spells floating around (including some really overpowering, scary >stuff - the Radiance is supposed to be All Powerful Magic, after all). > >Once I can dig it out amidst my chaos that is a hard drive - ill post it. Cool! Love to read them! I know there's this whole thing about game balance, but er, there's generally only about 6 users of the radiance in the multiverse...there's a whole load more Immortals and stuff than radiance users....besides, for the amount of trouble it causes there should be some benefits! All Powerful Magic is cool....also, it'd be nice if there was a tactical reason that the Glantrians didn't get splatted in the first 5 minutes of Wrath :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:55:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance Oh, I think I may disagree with the below. After all, there is one Radiance spell that is the functional equivalent of a nuclear bomb ("tactical", but a nice "city-buster" if you're besieging the place as well). > > >In my opinion the spells it gives aren't really that great, I'd like > >to see the radiance used for bigger and better things, make it a > >force to be rekoned with! (Although allowing you to become immortal > >aint a power to be sniffed at :) ) > > My thoughts indeed! In fact, ive already much increased the number of > Radiance spells floating around (including some really overpowering, scary > stuff - the Radiance is supposed to be All Powerful Magic, after all). > > Once I can dig it out amidst my chaos that is a hard drive - ill post it. > > Cheerz > > Rob > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:53:49 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance > Oh, I think I may disagree with the below. After all, there is one >Radiance spell that is the functional equivalent of a nuclear bomb >("tactical", but a nice "city-buster" if you're besieging the place as >well). mmm, Discharge (although, if you compare it to some AD+D stuff like Abi Dalzims Horrid Wilting, it doesnt seem so bad). Speaking of which - my Shadow Elf gaz has all sorts of cool stuff in the priestly equivalent (mushroom clouds, nuclear contamination etc) whereas G:KoM doesn't (it just does a certain number of d8s damage, IIRC). What does the original Glantri gaz say? Is the neat mushroom cloud stuff something that was snipped on conversion to AD+D? Or is the Glantrian version actually different? Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:53:49 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance > Oh, I think I may disagree with the below. After all, there is one >Radiance spell that is the functional equivalent of a nuclear bomb >("tactical", but a nice "city-buster" if you're besieging the place as >well). mmm, Discharge (although, if you compare it to some AD+D stuff like Abi Dalzims Horrid Wilting, it doesnt seem so bad). Speaking of which - my Shadow Elf gaz has all sorts of cool stuff in the priestly equivalent (mushroom clouds, nuclear contamination etc) whereas G:KoM doesn't (it just does a certain number of d8s damage, IIRC). What does the original Glantri gaz say? Is the neat mushroom cloud stuff something that was snipped on conversion to AD+D? Or is the Glantrian version actually different? Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #554 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, August 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 555 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance [MYSTARA] - Lift Capacity (was Re: Radiance) Re: [MYSTARA] - Announcement. Re: [MYSTARA] - Lift Capacity and way too much about the weight of treasure. Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:24:05 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! In a message dated 98-08-05 16:11:01 EDT, you write: << the next best would either be in the RC OR the HW boxed set. However, the are known as Yalu bay in those maps is accidentaly colored Green instaed of Blue (OOPS!!!!) >> Another error which was noted in one of Bruce's articles in Dragon was that the forest on Brun extended too far south as well. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:20:13 EDT From: Solarix@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Radiance Thanks for the help the web page was very useful. Few more things though. Noumeuna (or whatever his name is), the immortal that found the necleus and caused the second modifacation, It says in the history hes an immortal of time but the codex says he's an immortal of thought. Wich is correct? Also on a off subject I'm having alittle dificultly determineing lift capacity with magic spells (especially Float in air) since most say they lift 4000 cn or the objects weight am I missing something? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:02:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Radiance James said: > Oh, I think I may disagree with the below. After all, there is one >Radiance spell that is the functional equivalent of a nuclear bomb >("tactical", but a nice "city-buster" if you're besieging the place as >well). That's true, perhaps I'm just bemoaning the limited number of the spells (but what would you expect, the book is crammed full of other information and how useful would half a book of Radiance spells be!) Mmmm....tactical nukes... gordon Gordon McCormick Unix Team System Management UCD Computing Services Belfield Dublin 4 Ireland +353 1 7062017 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 12:00:44 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Lift Capacity (was Re: Radiance) At 11:20 AM 8/7/98 EDT, Solarix@aol.com wrote: >Also on a off >subject I'm having alittle dificultly determineing lift capacity with magic >spells (especially Float in air) since most say they lift 4000 cn or the >objects weight am I missing something? In the oD&D system, it is assmumed that there are a standard 10 cn (coins) to the pound. Thus, something that can lift 4000 cn should be able to lift 400 lbs. Going the other way, if it says something can lift 50 lbs., then the equivalent in coin is 500 cn. Note that for /encumbrance/ purposes (vs. lift), something that is noted as having an enc. of, say, 40 cn may not actually weigh a full 4 lbs. because encumbrance also takes the "compactness" of the item into consideration. Thus a bag full of feathers may have an encumbrance of 10 cn even though it doesn't weigh anything close to 1 lb. simply because it takes up at least as much space as 10 individual coins would. Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:55:33 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Announcement. > > i did get a bounce from mktriton and lately i have been seeing jamugakhan use > two different email addresses. so jamuga check your aol mail. > No problem, I've got it. No time to read it yet :-( Jamuga Khan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:24:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Lift Capacity and way too much about the weight of treasure. > >Also on a off > >subject I'm having alittle dificultly determineing lift capacity with magic > >spells (especially Float in air) since most say they lift 4000 cn or the > >objects weight am I missing something? > First off, for purposes of enchanting (I.E. I assume you're using CoM to make a flying craft), whatever is enchanted will float in air (even something as dense as lead). Getting it to bear cargo will require something else, though (enhancements to the spell, wings for extra lift, etc.) > cn even though it doesn't weigh anything close to 1 lb. simply because it > takes up at least as much space as 10 individual coins would. > The below is a somewhat pointless asside, but since the list is slow lately I feel free to ramble on pedantically about it: regarding coins, Mrs. Merrifield is correct, in that this is how it has evolved. I think originally coins were given a 10/1 lb. "encumberance value" not because they weighed 1/10th of a lb. each, though, but for two reasons: 1) to limit the ammount of swag an adventuring party can haul back with them on one trip (game balance, not realism). 2) because 1,000 silver pieces may not weigh 100 lbs, but they *are* kind of hard to carry around in a sack (I.E. same reason the feathers have a larger encumberance value than their nominal weight.) Stuff like armor, a sword, etc. may have an encumberance value close to their actual weight, since they are (when well made) deliberately designed to be non-cumbersome to carry and/or wear. This later (where "later" equals over 15 years ago) got transmogrified into the coins *actually* having a weight of .1 lbs each. This resulted in a wonderful article by David F. Godwin in Dragon #80 ("How many coins in a Coffer?"): In general, most coins would have to be the size of small saucers (the kind you use with teacups) to weigh a tenth of a lb, or be very thick: "In the D&D game, all coins are supposed to be about the size of a half dollar, but even a platinum piece [platinum being the densist coin materiel] that small would have to be 3/8" thick to weigh a tenth of a pound" (Godwin, P. 9): other coins would have to be even thicker, circa half an inch or so. The Byzantine Nomismata ("Bezant"), the most common gold coin of the middle ages, was struck at 72 to the lb. They were thus about the size of a nickel (the Venetian Ducat would be slightly, but not noticably, smaller). Other common coins ranged from about the size of a dime to about the size of a quarter (c.f. Peter Trueman's article in Dragon #167 for more on this). This is also more "realistic" in-game, since often characters make purchaces calculated in the thousands of GPs, and if the coins had an actual weight (and corresponding volume) of a tenth of a lb, they'd need to cart them around in wagons (or have a veritable platoon, or even battalion of bearer/porters, each a potential thief), which would be an entertaining spectacle for a short time (DON'T MISS: Rolf the Fighter's Travelling Treasure Show!), but kind of a bother in the long run. You can still keep the *encumberance* value at .1 lb, for purposes of dungeon booty, since rattling around in a subterenean cavern pouring loot into sacks is hardly a convenient experience (they don't come in thouse bank roll thingies, generally), and even putting them into a coffer and hauling that around (in what? your hands? tied to and thus bouncing on your back?) isn't very convenient, either. Anyhow, consider this a prelude to a comming "Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries" post, where I'll go into revenue aspects (since things are slow). That should come some time later today or this weekend, if anyone is interested. If not, just click delete. 8-)~ (Hint: it will have to do with the generation of tax income for "non-fudal" realms, which most Mystaran countries are). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:47:31 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - RW analogies <> I don't know, Glantri always reminded me of 15th century Italy as written by Machiavelli's "The Prince". As a matter of fact I'm involved in a Glantri game right now in which each player is running one of the Princes and I reread "The Prince" before starting to play. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #555 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, August 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 556 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11thCenturies Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:06:49 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Kol How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:04:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? > I think that's a debated thing. Some folks would rather have him be a real kobold, rather than just another haughty elf, so in their campaigns they go by the Orcs of Thar description, and ignore later information as being 1) elven propaganda and 2) libelous slander against a worthy kobold. "Kobolds: not just for luncheon meat anymore." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:20:23 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries. I've always been intrigued with the "macroeconomics" of game settings. Perhaps that's one of the (many) things that make me a deviant and misfit. Anyhow, what follows is a discourse and (eventual) question about mystaran economics, especially in relation to the budgets of Mystaran nations. There are at least two and a half economic models common to Mystara. The first is the one first published in the Companions level rules on domain revenues, and reprinted in the Rules Cyclopedia. The second is the one devised by Bruce Heard, first appearing in several Dragon Magazine articles and published subsiquently in Champions of Mystara. The "half" economic model is one implied, but not explained, in Dawn of the Emperors. The first, the rules for domains and taxation, produces vast revenues, and through the "rich resource" rule encourages a level of subinfudation found only in the most horrendous and ramshackle of midieval states, and never found in any Mystaran state with any level of cohesion. The second system follows the once-popular "Silver Standard", but since nothing is altered but revenues (prices for all items stay the same, unlike the system outlined by, for example, Peter Trueman in his "Just Give me MONEY!" article in TD #167); the CoM economic model is thus more appropriate for backwards, dark-age states reliant on subsistance agriculture and with a limited (at best) monetary economy. But it stands in (somewhat) stark relief against the backround of the rest of the game, where gold is relatively plentiful, costs are high, etc. N.B. in the Eastern Roman Empire, circa 18 Nomismata (gold pieces) was considered a rough "minimum wage". Even internal to itself, however, there are vast problems with this system: foremost, it assumes that the average pesant makes about 10 sp per month, but pays a reasonably 10% tax rate (1 sp per month). This is very endering, but unfortunately innacurate. The average pesant was ruthlessly squeezed, and typically exploited for half his productivity (so, more like 5 sp/month). Also, this system still uses fudalism as it's basis: the national government gets the short end of the stick, and the local lords recieve the lion share of the income. This does not jive with other materiel, which assumes for example professional standing armies and centralized states (I.E. as depicted in the PWAs). Based on this, for most Mystaran governments the 70:20:10 ratio should balance in favor of the national state, with local administrations making due with less. Most Mystaran nations couldn't come *close* to financing their "standing armies" if they were bound by these revenues, and their kings would be better off devoting all their time to plundering dungeons to locate much needed funds, and not bothering with taxation at all. The "half" system, which I think is implied in DotE, is one level above even the Domain Taxation rules: Alphatian mages can demand (and expect to recieve) high wages, and a simple 5-10% Property Tax on, say, the Emperor's Hill and the Estates in Thyatis the City, and the blocks of Sundsvall would generate revenues in the millions of gold pieces annually. Well, not Sundsvall, not anymore: a Property Tax on Sundsvall now would be adding insult to injury, I guess. But the general point remains: these Empires are depicted as awash in gold. Fact is, from a revenue generating stand point, I think *all* these models are somewhat deficient: the first because it is primarily devised for fudal states, and less than half of Mystaran nations really fit that description. The second because it is incongruous relative to the rest of the game (one Companions level module would generate "revenue" (booty) equivilent to several years, or even decades, income for a large kingdom), and the "half" because there are no rules for applying it, and it is just "broadly implied" by such things as the cost of estates, the wages Alphatian mages can charge, and the cost of large magic items (like skyships). In some ways, IMO, the original Champions domain rules may be more accurate (if overstating the "standard" I.E. "in kind" revenues somewhat), and what is "inaccurate" are not the tax rates, but the cost of mercenaries and other soldiers. Anyhow, I'd like to know what systems folks use in their own campaigns, and what modifications, if any, they use. The below is a rough start on an "alternate" system of taxation: ___________________________________________________________________ Land Taxes (probably the most important for most nations): good irrigated land: 1 gp/10 acres good unirrigated land: 1 gp/15 acres average irrigated land: 1 gp/15 acres average unirrigated land: 1 gp/25 acres Orchard (includes olive trees, mulberry trees, etc): 1 gp/40 trees Vinyard or garden: 1 gp/5 acres. (could be up to 1 gp/acre if rich). Land Taxes only cover the area under cultivation, which should be under two thirds of the total area of the nation, and for some noitably "wilderness" realms, might be a third, or even less, of the total area under the jurisdiction of the nation in question. Hearth or Poll Taxes: Hearth, without oxen: 4 sp Hearth, with one ox: 5 sp Hearth, 2+ oxen: 10 sp (1 gp) Hearth, urban: 20 sp (2 gp) "oxen" can be taken to include similar "beasts of burden" (horses, etc), but not livestock (cows, chickens, etc). The "urban" Hearth is added because in most Mystaran nations the urban % of the population is quite significant (and relatively wealthy), and so they shouldn't escape taxation. Once you calculate (assuming you're bothering) the tax, add a 20% "surtax" to the total. In the Eastern Roman Empire these four surcharges (the Dikeraton, 8.3%, a tax to fund fortifications, the Hexafolllon, 2.1%, a rip off, the Synethea, 8.3%, basically a "per diem" for the tax collectors, and the Elatikon, 4.2%, which paid the tax agents) were inflicted upon everyone. You can decide that they are only inflicted on "the wealthy" whatever you decide that might mean), however. Additional taxes might include a 10% tarrif and/or sales tax (trade seems particularly prominent in the KW, so this should bring in some good revenues), an "Estate Tax" (something like .5% a month on estates like thouse found in Thyatis the City and Draco), inheritance taxes etc (the latter may be "abstracted out" of an actual national "budget" though and considered "friction") *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:31:05 EDT From: Carmegil@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol the shadow elves have a custom stemming back to the Glantrian cataclism when any of their offspring are deformed they are left to fend for themselves this could explain the existence of goblins kobolds and hobgoblins as originally the decendants of those elves *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 04:43:49 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries. > I've always been intrigued with the "macroeconomics" of game settings. >Perhaps that's one of the (many) things that make me a deviant and misfit. >Anyhow, what follows is a discourse and (eventual) question about mystaran >economics, especially in relation to the budgets of Mystaran nations. Neat! (nice background, but *snip* - I never was any good at English) ___________________________________ > > Land Taxes (probably the most important for most nations): > good irrigated land: 1 gp/10 acres > good unirrigated land: 1 gp/15 acres > average irrigated land: 1 gp/15 acres > average unirrigated land: 1 gp/25 acres > Orchard (includes olive trees, mulberry trees, etc): 1 gp/40 trees > Vinyard or garden: 1 gp/5 acres. > (could be up to 1 gp/acre if rich). >Land Taxes only cover the area under cultivation, which should be under two >thirds of the total area of the nation, and for some noitably "wilderness" >realms, might be a third, or even less, of the total area under the >jurisdiction of the nation in question. > Hearth or Poll Taxes: > Hearth, without oxen: 4 sp > Hearth, with one ox: 5 sp > Hearth, 2+ oxen: 10 sp (1 gp) > Hearth, urban: 20 sp (2 gp) Ah haha - thats more like it... A huge table, to pore over and exploit mathematically :) Ive thought about this quite a bit (as the (N)PCs seem to own an inordinate amount of land... counties in the Heldannic Territories, baronies in the Savage Coast, Wendar and Glantri (diverse party)...). Basically, I came to the decision long ago that the Companion rules, as presented, are, well... naff. Ive been having a go with the Birthright rules instead - and while they are cool, its a fair bit of work converting things over (especially as I want to use the War Machine rules, and the prices for troops doesnt really correlate). And its not really ver Mystaran... But this... Oh yes. Ive always wanted a huge file (well - if i was less optimistic, a small file :) with all sorts of neat stuff just like the above. How much cash u can rake in for income tax (not to mention the dreaded Adventurer Tax :) - minus the income of the (rather hard) tax collectors sent out to get it), what the merchants will do if you slap sales tax on them, that sort of thing. Rather like the above. Birthright is very - generic (guild holdings and all that stuff). But there is something in me that desires a little universe with bells and whistles, and all sorts of things u can play with... Bottom line - any more stuff like this James? Cheerz Rob (Is the fact that everyone who plays AD+D around here is a science graduate unusual? :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:16:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > Bottom line - any more stuff like this James? I have to say taht I appreciated it as well. Any more? > (Is the fact that everyone who plays AD+D around here is a science > graduate unusual? :) Speak for yourself, I am a History major who plays AD&D! (LOL) Diego *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:16:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > > Ive been having a go with the Birthright rules instead - and while they are > cool, its a fair bit of work converting things over (especially as I want to > use the War Machine rules, and the prices for troops doesnt really > correlate). And its not really ver Mystaran... > You should join the upcomming Savage Coast Birthright game then, dude: you can play Bellayne and try to rule the world 8-). The BR rules are good for their own purpose, but IMO flawed in two (minor and livable, in a Birthright game) respects: 1) highly abstracted. and, more importantly 2) the *vast* majority of income, especially "reliable" income, is derived from trade, which is anachronistic (I live with it by turning my countries into "merchantile states" whenever possible, and/or ruthlessly opressing my Guilder(s).) > > Bottom line - any more stuff like this James? > That's a rough starting point. IMO, if you're *really* into this kind of thing, then you *absolutely* CAN'T live without Warren Treadgold's "Byzantine State Finances in the Eighth and Ninth Centuries", which I *think* I've mentioned before, and from which the rough system described was derived. Not only does it do a (rough, aproximate) "budget" for the Eastern Roman Empire, but it has a complete (rough, aproximate) payroll for the entire civil service and military infrastructure. While for historical IRL purposes the qualifiers that this is at best a rough aproximation applies, for our (game) purposes, one may as well treat it as "accurate" in describing what a centralized state can reasonably achieve (and this during the later stages of the Dark Ages. By the 11th century. . . .) The cool thing about this book is that it's short (150 pages, including index). The uncool thing is you'll have to special order it. The one substantive modification I made was expressing income as monthly, rather than annual, since IMO and in my experience most campaigns are awash in gold, and the prices of goods reflect that. If your campaign is more "down to earth" (based on the "Silver Standard" and with prices of goods coorespondingly modified), then just assume a annual (yearly) revenue total is what is generated by this system. What the appropriate pay of officials of various ranks is also something that puzzled me for a long time, and may puzzle other folks, too, so perhaps I'll post a table of that next, when I'm not so sleepy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:18:09 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > > > (Is the fact that everyone who plays AD+D around here is a science > > graduate unusual? :) > Speak for yourself, I am a History major who plays AD&D! > (LOL) > I'm a history & poly sci maven who "dabbles" in just about every social science you can name (which is prolly why I make so many large errors. . . . .) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 08:20:05 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries >> Ive been having a go with the Birthright rules instead - and while they >are >> cool, its a fair bit of work converting things over (especially as I want >to >> use the War Machine rules, and the prices for troops doesnt really >> correlate). And its not really ver Mystaran... >> > You should join the upcomming Savage Coast Birthright game then, dude: you >can play Bellayne and try to rule the world 8-). Cool! I'm in, dude! Where to? Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > > (Is the fact that everyone who plays AD+D around here is a science > > graduate unusual? :) > Speak for yourself, I am a History major who plays AD&D! > (LOL) Well, maybe the science types are more likely to be computer people and thus be overrepresented on a mailing list? I know we have anthropology people around here as well and other non-pure science fields. Heck, social work (my major) is about as far as you can get from science. Mystara attracts all sorts of fans! If you don't give people something to aspire to, how are they ever going to get there? - Chet Huntley *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 12:35:57 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol At 14.06 08/08/98 EDT, RISPEN@aol.com wrote: >How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? As James said that's a debated thing. Many people on this list consider him to be a kobold as stated in GAZ10, despite what G:KoM says. And there's also someone that completely neglects G:KoM (Marco? :). Kol=shadowelf has been discussed at least twice in the past. Many of us think that he was made a shadowelf when converting Mystara to AD&D, because of the "all humanoids are evil" attitude of AD&D. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:33:43 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries At 23.16 08/08/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > What the appropriate pay of officials of various ranks is also something >that puzzled me for a long time, and may puzzle other folks, too, so >perhaps I'll post a table of that next, when I'm not so sleepy. I would be interested in it because I often have my shadow elves PCs involved in military adventures. At first I tried to use for common soldiers the wages given for mercenary units in the Expert Set, but I think the pay it's far too low. Moreover shadow elves don't fit very well in any of the mercenary types, because they're all spellcasters, they've both sword and crossbow and they're often supplied with magical items. I also tried the wages given by Bruce in Dragon Magazine, but I didn't like them also. Now I use the rules from WotI, where the pay is calculated taking into account level, skills and magical abilities. I ended up with the Shaman being payed more than the Celebryl Air Force sergeant and the Second Shadow watcher getting the lowest pay. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:25:13 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries At 19.20 08/08/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: There's a thing that often puzzles players as well as DMs: how do they collect taxes in a fantasy world? For example, let's take Thyatis, they've a 25% income tax. But how do the tax collectors know how much the single person earned in the previous months? And how do they avoid to tax the same person twice? Here are a few ideas on how it can work, but they don't satisfy me: 1) Fantasy people are absolutely honest and on the stated day they go to the Tax Collector's office, tell him how they earned in the 3 previous months and pay the due taxes. 2) Tax Collectors make heavy use of magic to screen each people earnings. This can fit in Glantri, but probably not in Karameikos. 3) There's a huge bureaucracy and lot of paper. Each one has an ID card and there're receipts to attest what you earned; also, the tax collectors give you a receipt to certify that you paid the due amount, so that you cannot be taxed twice for the same thing. This sounds very Darokinian IMO, but, again, it probably wouldn't work elsewhere. Other ideas? - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:28:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11thCenturies > > For example, let's take Thyatis, they've a 25% income tax. But how do the > tax collectors know how much the single person earned in the previous > months? And how do they avoid to tax the same person twice? > income taxes, especially on a percentile basis, are really anachronistic, for the reasons you suggested (property taxes are somewhat different, which is why they are relatively common.) Using magic to "audit" everyone is also rather wasteful of resources, over the long run (or even the short run). > > There's a thing that often puzzles players as well as DMs: how do they > collect taxes in a fantasy world? > Well, as far as that goes, what I would guess is that most nations use a combination of tax farmers, customs agents (for commercial taxes), and other officials. Tax farmers collect most taxes, in return for a percentage of the "take" (and here's where magic comes in: the national government can adjudge what a given tax farmer should collect from his area, and use divination periodically to make sure they are recieving their proper amount: this will cut down on the most obvious flaw of the tax farmer system, the tendancy towards corruption: keeping more for himself and/or letting some taxpayers become "free ridders"). Thus the surtax in the previous post: about half of that goes to the tax collector, not the government (thus the tax farmer gets about 10% of the nominal "take" from land and hearth taxes). Customs agents (who collect tarrifs, sales taxes, etc) are probably paid the same way (10% of the gross collection), but since any estimate of the trade activity in a given Mystaran nation will be very aproximate, 10% either way really isn't important, so you can abstract that out (I.E. if you're detailing a country that has imposed a 10% tarrif on trade, the hardest thing for you to do will be determining what the total volume of trade is, how much of it is actually subject to the tax [as opposed to being smuggled in], &tc. The 1% of the total volume of trade that goes to the dudes who collect the tax is insignificant compaired to your likely margin of error in determining the total in the first place: you may even be "off" by orders of magnitude, but since it's a *game*, it doesn't really matter, and whatever "ball park" guestimate you consider to be appropriate for, say, Minrothad is "accurate" for you, in your campaign, even if someone else's guess may be very different). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 20:14:32 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I want Champions of Mystara! On Thu, 6 Aug 1998 Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: > Another error which was noted in one of Bruce's articles in Dragon was that > the forest on Brun extended too far south as well. Hrrm. Must have missed that Dragon.. ;) How far south should the forest actually extend? (we're talking about the Midland Forest, correct?) Thanks, Hĺvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #556 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.