mystara-digest Monday, August 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 557 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Economics [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:01:35 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol << when any of their offspring are deformed they are left to fend for themselves>> They were left out to "fend for themselves" but Rafiel always leads some form of humaniods to the area where the infant was and the would care for it as their own. << this could explain the existence of goblins kobolds and hobgoblins as originally the decendants of those elves >> As a race the shadow elves are an off-shoot of the blackmoore era elves. If memery serves the humaniod races were either already around or decendents of the beastmen, so in either case the shadow elves could not be the beginning of the humanoids *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:00:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries In a message dated 1998-08-09 11:45:03 Eastern Daylight Time, brizio@lunet.it writes: > Here are a few ideas on how it can work, but they don't satisfy me: > 1) Fantasy people are absolutely honest and on the stated day they go to > the Tax Collector's office, tell him how they earned in the 3 previous > months and pay the due taxes. Right -- nobody would buy that idea for a moment. > 2) Tax Collectors make heavy use of magic to screen each people earnings. > This can fit in Glantri, but probably not in Karameikos. Maybe in Alphatia -- see below for more on Glantri's tax collection. > 3) There's a huge bureaucracy and lot of paper. Each one has an ID card and > there're receipts to attest what you earned; also, the tax collectors give > you a receipt to certify that you paid the due amount, so that you cannot > be taxed twice for the same thing. This sounds very Darokinian IMO, but, > again, it probably wouldn't work elsewhere. This system is actually a close match for the one described for Glantri in Gaz 3. However, according to that gazetteer many mistakes are made -- people are often missed or taxed twice. > Other ideas? An inefficient variation of your third idea is the most likely. Tax fraud should be even more rampant than it is in modern real world societies. And most Mystaran governments probably hire free lance tax collectors on a contingency fee basis - -- and this option could provide an adventure hook for adventurers who take up that job or who are attempting to evade a determined tax collector who has figured out what a rich haul they collected on their last adventure. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 23:25:34 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >As James said that's a debated thing. >Many people on this list consider him to be a kobold as stated in GAZ10, >despite what G:KoM says. And there's also someone that completely neglects >G:KoM (Marco? :). > >Kol=shadowelf has been discussed at least twice in the past. Many of us >think that he was made a shadowelf when converting Mystara to AD&D, because >of the "all humanoids are evil" attitude of AD&D. Well, AD+D humanoids are evil because they worship evil gods (like Gruumsh). Bit like drow, I suppose (Lolth has to be the most overused bad guy in AD+D. Shes like the AD+D version of Alphaks :) Mystaran Immortals arent rigidly aligned like Gods (and Planescape planes, for that matter). This is probably the single thing that most causes Mystara to be a "non aligned" setting. However - the Orcs of Thar gaz makes the Orcs seem very much like Warhammer orcs (Da Boyz :) - nd they arent exactly nice guys. Evil aligned, most likely... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 23:32:36 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries >An inefficient variation of your third idea is the most likely. Tax fraud >should be >even more rampant than it is in modern real world societies. And most >Mystaran >governments probably hire free lance tax collectors Free lance tax collectors. You mean - Adventurers! Your mission, should u choose to accept it... Track down Bargle the Infamous, and inform him that he owes the Karameikan Crown 9999.95gp in taxes. Heres an official proclamation - if he doesnt pay up book him for tax evasion and return him to Mirros... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 23:28:26 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries > > Track down Bargle the Infamous, and inform him that he owes the Karameikan > Crown 9999.95gp in taxes. Heres an official proclamation - if he doesnt pay > up book him for tax evasion and return him to Mirros... > Don't laugh, actually: that's what Capone (finally) got jailed for; tax evasion. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:24:06 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries In a message dated 98-08-09 11:45:03 EDT, you write: << For example, let's take Thyatis, they've a 25% income tax. But how do the tax collectors know how much the single person earned in the previous months? And how do they avoid to tax the same person twice?>> i think alphatia had the easiest as far as taxes. with personal wealth so vital to social status (esp. for commoners) the government had readily available financial records for taxation. plus with wealth so easy for mages, it could be seen as flashy to pay alot. "Ah Erryllidya...you paid but 15,000 gp. that's nothing. they assessed me for 62,000 gp. oh well....easy come easy go." glantri has about the easiest way to collect. tax everything. minrothad has a good way too. base assessment on trade. sure smuggling is going to sneak some past but that's to be expected. thyatis, i assume, relies on bureacrats. some honest some corrupt. imo this is starting to change. chiminy taxes and print taxes are surely to spur on a more easily administered tax system. <> no such thing as totally honest taxpayers or tax collectors. it makes for some good role playing and/or hooks. <<2) Tax Collectors make heavy use of magic to screen each people earnings. This can fit in Glantri, but probably not in Karameikos.>> the problem with this is the cost to the collectors. <<3) There's a huge bureaucracy and lot of paper. Each one has an ID card and there're receipts to attest what you earned; also, the tax collectors give you a receipt to certify that you paid the due amount, so that you cannot be taxed twice for the same thing. This sounds very Darokinian IMO, but, again, it probably wouldn't work elsewhere.>> sounds probable for thyatis and alphatia, also. i am actually trying to address some of this for another project concerning nace. same thing is being done for thyatis too i think. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 03:09:55 -0500 From: Brunciak Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran Economics This talk of Mystaran Economics has fascinated me. It's actually a strange coincidence because I'm beginning to create my own world and am starting with how the economics of it works and the next thing I know the MML is disscussing basically the same thing. Anyway, I think I know how you would be able to get over the problem of collecting taxes based on income. Since the Thyatian Empire is basically a Mystaran equivalent of Rome/Byzantium, it probably has a huge bureaucrcy. First, we'll divide the working population into two camps. One is agiculture while the other is either in manufacturing or services. Those people in agriculture could easily have their incomes figured out because all a government official must do is show up at the farm/vineyard/orchard and can then determine how much the farmer could sell (it's kind of hard to have an empty field and try to lie to the taxman where all of the vegetation from it went). Now with the rest of the population consisting of either tradesmen of some kind or service people we have to go with fact that since they exist in a bureaucratic society such as Thyatis, they will most likely be members of a guild of some kind. These giulds are linked with the government tax offices and help to keep track of every single person in a guild and what they did for during the tax season. Sound confusing yet? :^) HERE'S AN EXAMPLE! Justin is a bricklayer from Retebius. He is naturally a member of the local bricklayer's guild (as are most bricklayers because the guilds find work and handle wages and other matters). The guild has noted that in the past half year, Justin has worked 170 days at 5 Denarius a day (the standard giuld wage) so (170 x 5 = 850) Justin has made 850 Dearius. The guild has this logged and so does the Imperial Tax Collector so when the time comes, they can see Justin and tell him that he owes the Empire 213 Denarius. This system may seem to be open to corruption but it is only as corrupt as the various heads of the guilds are because they keep track of the members' incomes. If the Guild Heads were paid by the government, then this would lessen the corruption because they would try to get as much as possible from the members in order to keep their positions and in order to get higher bonuses from the government. Yeah it's bureaucratic and open to corruption but hey-IT'S THYATIS! Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:42:55 +0200 (METDST) From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Frank Mentzer wrote: <> Well, I'll ask you something about Mystara anyway, since we're on the Mystara ML after all.. ;) First of all, let me tell ya it's a great pleasure to have you here (although I know I'm late for the greetings: sorry, I've been out for a week playing Live RPG in the mountains and it was GREAT!). Then, let me congratulate for your comeback into TSR, which since WotC buyout seems to be improving every passing month (I hope it's not only an impression but a fact). And finally let me tell you that the rulebook I enjoyed most of the ones you wrote is the Immortal set, which I have rarely used, I admit it, but which contains so many new rules and great ideas to spark my imagination for years. I still use it, taking only a bunch of rules from the updated (simplified) version, WotI. And since we're talking about the rulebooks, I really have to say that the worst one was (surprisingly enough) the Basic set. Don't get me wrong: it had a very comprehensive and useful Player's section, but the DM's book was the poorest ever made (of the five DM's books -the Expert one coming as close second due to the many printing errors). But I enjoyed very much the solo adventure that introduced Aleena and Bargle as well as some of the lower monsters (yellow mold, shrieker and so on, really funny). <> Was this Lorraine Williams somehow related to Gary Gygax (I read somewhere he got ousted by his wife..)? Also, speaking with other ex TSR collaborators, I got the idea that things began to crumble especially because of Mrs Williams' despotic rule and tight grip inside TSR: is it really so IYO? And finally, is this Lorraine Williams maybe the sister (or a relative anyway) of the "Sage" Skip Williams? <> Funny but very intriguing sidenotes: it always makes you feel powerful when you get to know such things.. eh eh.. ;) BTW, can you give us also some more news on the other names found in the rulebooks? For example, the PC samples, the artifacts, the names of the original Immortals, the Egg of Coot .. Okay, I think it's all for now! Good to have ya among us: hope you'll enjoy our talks! DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:17:28 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) > < Lorraine Williams.>> > > Was this Lorraine Williams somehow related to Gary Gygax (I read somewhere > he got ousted by his wife..)? Also, speaking with other ex TSR > collaborators, I got the idea that things began to crumble especially > because of Mrs Williams' despotic rule and tight grip inside TSR: is it > really so IYO? And finally, is this Lorraine Williams maybe the sister (or a > relative anyway) of the "Sage" Skip Williams? If I am not completely wrong, Lorraine is a man. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:31:34 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >If I am not completely wrong, Lorraine is a man. Well, I know Tracy Hickman is a man. And Americans think the English are weird??? :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:50:14 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > >If I am not completely wrong, Lorraine is a man. > Well, I know Tracy Hickman is a man. Tracy Hick_man_ It was there all along... ;) Håvard.... Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:09:16 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) > >If I am not completely wrong, Lorraine is a man. > Well, I know Tracy Hickman is a man. >Tracy Hick_man_ >It was there all along... ;) *groan* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:38:42 EDT From: BAHUMUTH2@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) In a message dated 98-08-10 04:47:01 EDT, you write: << Frank Mentzer wrote: <> >> Frank Mentzer is a part of this list? Great! Hey Frank, does that mean you made up the original rules or designed Karameikos? Do you like the original rules or did you game with AD&D Rules when they came out? I've been gaming for 7 years and i've always enjoyed the simple yet comprehensive D&D Rules over the endless number of pointless adjustments of the AD&D Rules. But what was with Bargle's Dungeon? Did anyone else think that the adventurer's "first" adventure was just a bit too tough? I didn't send anyone on that adventure until about level 3 but they still all got their butt kicked by that first carrion crawler. =========BAHUMUTH *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:39:47 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 RISPEN@aol.com wrote: > How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? We had this discussion recently, and decided that Kol was about as much of a shadow elf as say, Karassh is. Kol is a Kobold Wicca. Not some absolutely stupid 'witch doctor' Max IV - A Kobold is a Kobold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:41:15 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > by the Orcs of Thar description, and ignore later information as being 1) Agh! All the PWA's and Joshuans call Kol a Kobold! That whole SE thing came from G:KoM. It just adds to the shoddiness of that product. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 Carmegil@aol.com wrote: > the shadow elves have a custom stemming back to the Glantrian cataclism when > any of their offspring are deformed they are left to fend for themselves this > could explain the existence of goblins kobolds and hobgoblins as originally > the decendants of those elves Kobolds, Goblinoids, orcs, Trolls etc. were around LONG before the SE's were driven underground. They evolved from the Hyborean beastmen (HW boxed set) Rafiel himself guides the malformed children to their new families. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:47:18 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol - ----> >> How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? > >We had this discussion recently, and decided that Kol was about as much of >a shadow elf as say, Karassh is. > >Kol is a Kobold Wicca. Not some absolutely stupid 'witch doctor' > > >Max IV - A Kobold is a Kobold Hes cooler as an elf. Hes a bit more of a tragic figure then (especially if he finds out - its the Hunchback of Notre Dame effect :) He could even fall in love with an elven woman from Erewan or something :) As a kobold hes just (another) scheming piece of trash. No change there. A kobold is a kobold. Smaller than a goblin :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > Mystaran Immortals arent rigidly aligned like Gods (and Planescape planes, > for that matter). This is probably the single thing that most causes > Mystara to be a "non aligned" setting. Speaking of that, Y'know, I was reading the descriptions of monsters such as the Hordes and Kryst and Hydrax and other planar denizens in the RC. D&D is so "not" evil-good axis aligned. The hordes seem evil, but they aren't, just expansionistsic and VERY lawful. Also, anyone notice that in PC2 a major undead runs the library? I'd love to see what kind of "evil" plots those moronic AD&D writes would have him plot in secret. Jeez. In my campaign, I have a nice "friendly" Revanant. How about you? Chaotic doesn't meed "bad" There are too many CE's and not enough CG's. In short, alignments suck. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:02:29 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > > >Max IV - A Kobold is a Kobold > > > Hes cooler as an elf. > How can you say that???? IMO, he's *MUCH* cooler as a Kobold!! After all, these guys are usually considered "jokes" ("An army of Kobolds, eh? Well, we equip our scullery maids with frying pans and beat the ugly off 'em.") Here's one example where a Kobold MATTERS, and it shows that the "sterotype" of the weak Kobold doesn't nessissarily apply. Making him some kind of freakish elf (especially considering how arrogant elfophiles already are) disipates that. And he's already a tragic figure, IMO, in being a "Glantrian Prince" who is no doubt condecended to continuously. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:09:01 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? > > > In short, alignments suck. > *Gets back up on his soap box* IMO, in Nth edition D&D ("3rd Edition AD&D" or whatever they call it) that they are supposedly contemplating right now, the whole Alignment concept should be tossed. Numerous good games show that you don't need an "alignment" system anyhow, even to have a "heroic" meleu. As a compromise, they should return to the Law/Neutrality/Chaos scheme (I.E. the D&D one), if they decide to retain it at all. The other system may *seem* more precise, but IMO it's deficient for all the reasons that have been discussed here lately (impediment, rather than an aid, to role playing; "pigeon holes" characters and creatures, etc.) For "special" type classes & characters (I.E. Druids, Paladins, Rangers), rather than having a specific (but ill defined) alignment be the requirement ("he must be Lawful Good"), just have a "code" that they must live by (which is better anyhow, IMO,) similar to the one's that are in the Cyclopedia for D&D "equivilents" and are also described in the AD&D "Complete Guides" for such classes. *Jumps back down off his soap box, for now* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:20:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >How can you say that???? > IMO, he's *MUCH* cooler as a Kobold!! After all, these guys are usually >considered "jokes" ("An army of Kobolds, eh? Well, we equip our scullery >maids with frying pans and beat the ugly off 'em.") Hardly. Played Dragon Mountain? > Here's one example where a Kobold MATTERS, and it shows that the >"sterotype" of the weak Kobold doesn't nessissarily apply. Making him some >kind of freakish elf (especially considering how arrogant elfophiles >already are) disipates that. And he's already a tragic figure, IMO, in >being a "Glantrian Prince" who is no doubt condecended to continuously. As it is, hes basically just another humanoid warleader. He has no hidden secrets or agendas or anything like that. The only thing he has going for him is that hes a Glantrian Prince. But New Kolland is more like the Broken Lands (ie a humanoid resort) than a Principality (and hes being manipulated by Synn) so that barely counts, IMO. What depth has he got? Checking out the Orcs of Thar, Kol can be summed up as a typical kobold wizard. Im not really an elfophile (when dealing with elf fanatics, i just dig out the film Legend, point to the little kid with pointy ears, and say Thats You, That Is - problem solved. ) What makes him so cool that hes a kobold? Thar meant something IMC and he was "only" an orc. I dont know - the Orcs of Thar reminded me too much of Warhammer orcs (snotlings, Waarghs!, squigs, madboyz, that sort of thing) and i never really liked that. I prefer Tolkien orcs, rather than Her Bombastic Majesty... Sauron would turn in his grave :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:26:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol - ---- >What makes him so cool that hes a kobold? Thar meant something IMC and he oops! IMO... Maybe even IMHO... :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:24:37 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > Hardly. Played Dragon Mountain? > Yes, I have. None the less, the stereotype of the "weak" Kobold still persists. Kol (and Dragon Mountain, an AD&D accessory) is one thing that "breaks" that steriotype. Another haughty Elf hardly breaks any steriotypes. In fact, it only re-enforces them ("see, he's an Elf, so it's no wonder they made him a Prince. No mere humanoid could ever qualify.") > > What depth has he got? Checking out the Orcs of Thar, Kol can be summed up > as a typical kobold wizard. > He has whatever depth you want to impute to him. I.E. you transform him into an Elf, changing nothing else, and all the sudden a vast array of agendas and "depth" is imputed to him by that fact alone. IMO, all changing him to an elf does, in and of itself, is give him one (minor and probably undiscoverable) "secret." Everything else that you think adds "depth" is based on your perspective. I think that Kol could have agendas and "depth" while remaining a Humanoid, and that this alone makes him more interesting *as a Kobold*, than he would be *as an elf*. I.E. you transform him into an Elf, and all the sudden imply that as such he's *not* a pawn of Synn, based on that one change. Why? And are you *sure* he's *just* a pawn of Synn as a Kobold, with no agenda and plots (very Glantrian, actually: wheels within wheels, and everyone using everyone else to further their own schemes, while thinking that the others are their unwitting tools) of his own? > Im not really an elfophile (when dealing with elf fanatics, i just dig out > the film Legend, point to the little kid with pointy ears, and say Thats > You, That Is - problem solved. ) > LOL. 8-) > > What makes him so cool that hes a kobold? > What makes him so cool if he's an elf, and only one of many significant ones, after all, and thus not very unique? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:29:54 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol While I understand both parts of the Kol argument, I would like to point out that if Kol were a normal kobold, he would have already died of old age. So, even if he is not a shadow elf, he must be *somehow* special. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #557 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 558 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11thCenturies Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:49:17 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >> Hardly. Played Dragon Mountain? >> >Yes, I have. None the less, the stereotype of the "weak" Kobold still >persists. Kol (and Dragon Mountain, an AD&D accessory) is one thing that >"breaks" that steriotype. Only in the minds of people who need to be taken down a peg or three. Dragon Mountain was cool. > Another haughty Elf hardly breaks any steriotypes. In fact, it only >re-enforces them ("see, he's an Elf, so it's no wonder they made him a >Prince. No mere humanoid could ever qualify.") He would hardly be a haughty elf, even if he did find out. Far from it. I picture him as Igor or something. Or even Smeagol, continuing the Tolkien. Exactly how do u reckon that a mutated, twisted elf that now looks more like a kobold than an elf is going to be haughty? Despised as being "evil", but in actuality more pathetic (Notre Dame style) seems far more likely. Which, if what you are saying holds, would be even more of a break from stereotypicality - a pathetic broken elf? >> What depth has he got? Checking out the Orcs of Thar, Kol can be summed >up >> as a typical kobold wizard. >> > He has whatever depth you want to impute to him. I.E. you transform him >into an Elf, changing nothing else, and all the sudden a vast array of >agendas and "depth" is imputed to him by that fact alone. IMO, all changing >him to an elf does, in and of itself, is give him one (minor and probably >undiscoverable) "secret." Everything else that you think adds "depth" is >based on your perspective. I think that Kol could have agendas and "depth" >while remaining a Humanoid, and that this alone makes him more interesting >*as a Kobold*, than he would be *as an elf*. Well, thats true about every thing. I considered that comment to be true without my mentioning it. But this was a debate as to whether he was cooler as elf or kobold, not what the elf or kobold would get up to. Seems as an elf he has far more blindingly obvious depth - without lazy old me having to think of something. Which is, after all, why we play Mystara and dont just make up our own worlds. > I.E. you transform him into an Elf, and all the sudden imply that as such >he's *not* a pawn of Synn, based on that one change. Why? And are you >*sure* he's *just* a pawn of Synn as a Kobold, with no agenda and plots >(very Glantrian, actually: wheels within wheels, and everyone using >everyone else to further their own schemes, while thinking that the others >are their unwitting tools) of his own? Uh? You seem to think that as an elf hes going to be walking around with some sort of inviolable halo around him. I figured that as an elf he would still be manipulated by Synn. In G:KoM he is firmly in Synns clawed digits - and hes an elf. Hes not just an elf. Hes a mutated elf. Being a good looking arrogant elf is the quintessential elven character. Kol is nothing like this. If he doesnt find out, the whole question is irrelevant. If he does find out - how would he react? Would he hate the shadow elves and Rafiel, irrationally (?) blaming them for his condition? (the stereotypical response). Would the way that the elves treat him further endear him to his kobold kin, as he now has proof that the elves are all racist gits who only care about the outside appearance? Or would he find a quiet church tower to hide away his ugliness... :( (Poor Kol). Anyway - bar some major divination, no one is going to know for sure (hmm - aranea with identify species spell?). If its all hearsay, and no one really knows - that makes it that much cooler. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:55:59 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > He has whatever depth you want to impute to him. >> >> What makes him so cool that hes a kobold? >> >What makes him so cool if he's an elf, and only one of many significant >ones, after all, and thus not very unique? He would be unique elf. Incidentally - if you hold all the above dear, he may as well be a kobold, an elf, a dragon, a human, or a performing chimp, as long as u write a nice bit of depth around him. (In the Thyatis/Alphatia debate didnt u say something that if u a writer wants something, it will happen? I agree) Monkeys of the World Unite! Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:01:01 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >While I understand both parts of the Kol argument, I would like to point out >that if Kol were a normal kobold, he would have already died of old age. So, >even if he is not a shadow elf, he must be *somehow* special. Lol. Well, Tenser has Int 17 and casts 9th level spells. Cant see why Mystara cant turn a selective blind eye to the Rulz either :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:58:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > Which is, after all, why we play Mystara and dont just make up our own > worlds. > Well, that's certainly true. After all, if I devoted my time to creating my own (poor, paltry) world, I would hardly have time to hector people mercilessly on mailing lists. 8-)~ > > Uh? You seem to think that as an elf hes going to be walking around with > some sort of inviolable halo around him. > Believe me, *I* don't, but I've run into *WAY* to many people who adopt that very attitude when it comes to elves. I figured that as an elf he would > still be manipulated by Synn. In G:KoM he is firmly in Synns clawed > digits - and hes an elf. > G:KoM is somewhat suspect as a reference, at least on this list. In D&D "canon", Kol schemed with the best of them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:00:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > > Incidentally - if you hold all the above dear, he may as well be a kobold, > an elf, a dragon, a human, or a performing chimp, as long as u write a nice > bit of depth around him. > Speaking of a performing chimp, ever played the "Isle of the Ape" module? If powerful characters ever need to be taken down a peg, forgo Dragon Mountain and go right for "Isle of the Ape" 8-). > (In the Thyatis/Alphatia debate didnt u say something that if u a writer > wants something, it will happen? I agree) > I did, and it's true. Kol can be whatever you want him to be in your campaign, and in mine. The list is *so* slow lately, though, that debating this Kol thing seems to be "the best game in town" for now. > Monkeys of the World Unite! > You *definately* should run "Isle of the Ape" 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:13:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > While I understand both parts of the Kol argument, I would like to point out > that if Kol were a normal kobold, he would have already died of old age. So, > even if he is not a shadow elf, he must be *somehow* special. Potions of Longevity! They explain Demetrion Kagenteropolis, Why not Kol? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:11:18 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > > even if he is not a shadow elf, he must be *somehow* special. > > Potions of Longevity! > > They explain Demetrion Kagenteropolis, Why not Kol? > Well, in addition to that, I'd point out that this whole "Kol is an Elf" thing comes not from D&D Mystara but from AD&D Mystara, and in AD&D, IIRC, Kobolds have lifespans measured in the (low) centuries. They keep fiddling with it, though, so I don't remember for sure. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:18:04 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >> Uh? You seem to think that as an elf hes going to be walking around with >> some sort of inviolable halo around him. >> >Believe me, *I* don't, but I've run into *WAY* to many people who adopt >that very attitude when it comes to elves. Sounds to me like you could do with distributing a few copies of Legend (for educational purposes only) yourself :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:19:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol - ----- >Speaking of a performing chimp, ever played the "Isle of the Ape" module? >If powerful characters ever need to be taken down a peg, forgo Dragon >Mountain and go right for "Isle of the Ape" 8-). Lol. You know - that is a stroke of genius... :) >> (In the Thyatis/Alphatia debate didnt u say something that if u a writer >> wants something, it will happen? I agree) >> >I did, and it's true. Kol can be whatever you want him to be in your >campaign, and in mine. The list is *so* slow lately, though, that debating >this Kol thing seems to be "the best game in town" for now. And so, we find ourselves, as usual, spouting rubbish at each other. :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:21:01 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > G:KoM is somewhat suspect as a reference, at least on this list. In D&D > "canon", Kol schemed with the best of them. Hehe.. I suspect "Canon" on this list ended with the publishing of Joshuan's, barring of course, Mark of Amber (Which many ppl seem to like) I doubt anyone takes G:KoM, or K:KoA very seriously. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) > Frank Mentzer is a part of this list? Great! Hey Frank, does that mean you >made up the original rules or designed Karameikos? Do you like the original >rules or did you game with AD&D Rules when they came out? I've been gaming for >7 years and i've always enjoyed the simple yet comprehensive D&D Rules over >the endless number of pointless adjustments of the AD&D Rules. But what was >with Bargle's Dungeon? Did anyone else think that the adventurer's "first" >adventure was just a bit too tough? I didn't send anyone on that adventure >until about level 3 but they still all got their butt kicked by that first >carrion crawler. I remember that adventure. It was actually pretty easy until the party ran into the harpies. The carrion crawler is a pushover; just back off and use arrows. The harpies in the dining hall were much tougher. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:29:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage >Hehe.. >I suspect "Canon" on this list ended with the publishing of Joshuan's, >barring of course, Mark of Amber (Which many ppl seem to like) > >I doubt anyone takes G:KoM, or K:KoA very seriously. > I don't have the Glantri boxed set, but I like the Karameikos one; I have no problems with it as far as 'canon' is concerned. The art is beautiful, and the text evokes a feeling of fantasy that a lot of other products (including the Gazetteers) don't have. I'm talking about the font that is used; reading the Kingdom of Adventure books, I find it easier to picture Karameikos as a true fantastic realm. Besides, there are no major deviations from previously accepted 'canon' material. It just updates it to the post-WotI Mystara, and it looks great. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:37:53 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >>7 years and i've always enjoyed the simple yet comprehensive D&D Rules over >>the endless number of pointless adjustments of the AD&D Rules. But what was >>with Bargle's Dungeon? Did anyone else think that the adventurer's "first" >>adventure was just a bit too tough? I didn't send anyone on that adventure >>until about level 3 but they still all got their butt kicked by that first >>carrion crawler. > >I remember that adventure. It was actually pretty easy until the party ran >into the harpies. The carrion crawler is a pushover; just back off and use >arrows. The harpies in the dining hall were much tougher. Hmm. IIRC, IMC the carrion crawler nailed all the warriors in the round when it ambushes the party (it has got eight attacks). The remaining softbodies (thieves and mages) just couldnt put enough firepower into it to kill it. Later, with new fighters, and armed with foreknowledge, it was shot to bits. :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:29:22 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11th Centuries At 02.24 10/08/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: >i think alphatia had the easiest as far as taxes. with personal wealth so >vital to social status (esp. for commoners) the government had readily >available financial records for taxation. plus with wealth so easy for mages, >it could be seen as flashy to pay alot. "Ah Erryllidya...you paid but 15,000 >gp. that's nothing. they assessed me for 62,000 gp. oh well....easy come easy >go." In Darokin too personal wealth is very important for social status. >glantri has about the easiest way to collect. tax everything. :-) No problems in Ethengar either, because everything belongs to the Khan and there're no real taxes. >minrothad has a good way too. base assessment on trade. sure smuggling is >going to sneak some past but that's to be expected. >thyatis, i assume, relies on bureacrats. some honest some corrupt. imo this is >starting to change. chiminy taxes and print taxes are surely to spur on a more >easily administered tax system. Same goes for Karameikos IMO. >no such thing as totally honest taxpayers or tax collectors. it makes for some >good role playing and/or hooks. Well, actually the shadow elves are described as being extremely honest and tax evasion is almost unknown in the shadow elves' territories. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:03:43 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol At 18.47 10/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: Oh no! Kol again! >Hes cooler as an elf. Hes a bit more of a tragic figure then (especially if >he finds out - its the Hunchback of Notre Dame effect :) He could even fall >in love with an elven woman from Erewan or something :) What?! Cooler as an elf! Now, I like shadow elves (but I guess you already knew this :), anyway I don't see how he can be cooler as elf. Despite being a little kobold, he managed to master magic, survive WotI, create a new nation with all sort of 'noids and not just kobolds (as before WotI) and finally become a Glantrian Prince. Isn't that enough to be cool? > >As a kobold hes just (another) scheming piece of trash. No change there. > Like all Glantrian princes... >A kobold is a kobold. Smaller than a goblin :) Quicker and smarter than a goblin :-) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:11:38 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol At 19.49 10/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > >Hes not just an elf. Hes a mutated elf. I don't have G:KoM but AFAIK Kol doesn't know of being a mutated shadow elf. He consider himself a kobold, and no one knows he's a shadow elf except the DM. > Being a good looking arrogant elf >is the quintessential elven character. Kol is nothing like this. If he >doesnt find out, the whole question is irrelevant. If he does find out - >how would he react? But, how can he find out? >Would he hate the shadow elves and Rafiel, irrationally >(?) blaming them for his condition? (the stereotypical response). You mean, blaming them for being a Glantrian Prince, instead of a standard xenophobic shadow elf who's to choose between living underground or in a twisted forest... Well, I guess he wouldn't blame them. >Anyway - bar some major divination, no one is going to know for sure (hmm - >aranea with identify species spell?). If its all hearsay, and no one really >knows - that makes it that much cooler. Just hearsay it's ok. Like Morphail is a vampire, Malachie a werewolf, Etienne an Immortal, Synn a dragon, Jaggar a famous dragon-hunter... it looks as if each Glantrian Prince is rumored to be something else... - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:11:14 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran State Finances in the 10th and 11thCenturies > > Well, actually the shadow elves are described as being extremely honest and > tax evasion is almost unknown in the shadow elves' territories. > Their taxes are comparatively low, too. "Friction" (losses due to looking for ways to "shelter" money, or simply evade the tax) tends to increase as the marginal rate rises. Thus, the Shadow Elves are honest, in part because their is less reason not to be honest (a "positive feedback loop" is established, and this pervades their way of life in many ways). once "crime" starts to pay ("cheating" becomes more attractive because the tax rates rise), this honesty might abate (many otherwise "honest" people think little of cheating on their taxes, rationalizing it in various ways: of course, they are criminals none the less, but they still think of themselves as upstanding citizens). I'll also note that Thyatis is considered more corrupt than Alphatia. Thyatis' marginal tax rate is 25%, and Alphatia's is 15%. This difference is probably both a cause, and a result, of that corruption (more people cheat in Thyatis, so the rate has to be higher to make up for the frictional loss, but the higher rate only encourages more cheating: a "negative feedback loop"). Now, this *doesn't* mean that everyone should lower their tax rates to the Shadow Elven level and that they'll thus: 1) recieve the same income as before because their is less cheating. and 2) eliminate all social problems. It's of course much more complex than that, and Thyatis probably does recieve somewhat more per capita than nations with lower marginal rates. But it *may* help Thyatis to change their tax system to one that is less prone to corruption and cheating ("may" being an operative word), and lower the rate and/or eliminate some notoriously unfair and distructive taxes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:59:41 EDT From: BAHUMUTH2@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Yeah, alignments are stupid. People are people. No one goes around saying "I'm neutral evil." Alignments only stifle 3 dimensional characterization. ============BAHUMUTH *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:59:50 EDT From: BAHUMUTH2@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) In a message dated 98-08-10 15:53:57 EDT, you write: << Hmm. IIRC, IMC the carrion crawler nailed all the warriors in the round > when it ambushes the party (it has got eight attacks). The remaining > softbodies (thieves and mages) just couldnt put enough firepower into it to > kill it. > > Later, with new fighters, and armed with foreknowledge, it was shot to bits. >> Yeah! That's what i'm talking about! On the 2nd try. But come on, this is the first adventure. The players are not only green to entire game, but they're characters are weak in every way. The first thing that attacks is a monster with 8 attacks, each requiring a saving throw of about 16 for the character to not fall down paralyzed! DM:"You want to play a cool game called Dungeons and Dragons?" PL:"Sure." DM:"Okay, you're walking along and a giant catepillar attacks you from behind. , Okay, please make 7 saving throws vs. poision or fall over helpless." PL:"My first roll is a 14. What's that mean?" DM:"It means your dead. Welcome to D&D." Then there's the INSIDE! Harpies that can charm the party. Beds that cause the characters to jump in and go to sleep. And what gets them out? Place a pea is found from another room, under the matress! OH! OFCOURSE!!! Come on, what experienced player, nevermind a newbie, would not only find the peas but come up with that? Then the party thinks they finally found some treasure, golden plates... Nope! Sorry! That's yellow mold! Ha! Ha! Everyone make a roll of 12 or higher or fall over dead! Maybe everyone else started with players with college degrees, but some of the players I started with didn't quite get the point. One time, a long time ago, I gamed with 3 kids who hadn't played before. They were pretty young. They didn't quite get the point. They walked into the cave and 3 goblins attacked. The first player immediately attacked the second player, and the second player fought back. The third player began searching the bare cavern walls for treasure. The 3 goblins beat them easily, no damage taken. =======================BAHUMUTH *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:24:25 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 BAHUMUTH2@aol.com wrote: > They didn't quite get the point. They walked into the cave and 3 goblins > attacked. The first player immediately attacked the second player, and the > second player fought back. The third player began searching the bare cavern > walls for treasure. The 3 goblins beat them easily, no damage taken. For some reason, I can't really see this happen. But it sounds amazingly hilarious. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:57:32 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame > From: Rob >Despised as being "evil", but > in actuality more pathetic (Notre Dame style) seems far more likely What's your problem with Notre Dame ? What everybody mean when using it ? Does it have a special signification outside France ? Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT à mag@mel.teamlog.fr http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:07:02 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > From: Fabrizio Paoli > At 19.49 10/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > > > >Hes not just an elf. Hes a mutated elf. > > I don't have G:KoM but AFAIK Kol doesn't know of being a mutated shadow > elf. He consider himself a kobold, and no one knows he's a shadow elf > except the DM. > What about making him a half shadow elf / half Kobold : it can explains his talent in magic and cleric spells use ... Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT à mag@mel.teamlog.fr http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 03:35:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT wrote: > > in actuality more pathetic (Notre Dame style) seems far more likely > > What's your problem with Notre Dame ? What everybody mean when using it ? > Does it have a special signification outside France ? I think he is referring to the book "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" Rather than the church itself. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 03:36:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT wrote: > What about making him a half shadow elf / half Kobold : it can explains his > talent in magic and cleric spells use ... Ahh, but you see, clerics can't be Glantrian Princes. Period. Oh.. What Mystara lost when AD&D became the rage. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #558 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 559 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 3 Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:01:05 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > From: SteelAngel > Ahh, but you see, clerics can't be Glantrian Princes. Yeah, i now this, (in fact i think they can if they're clever enough to hide it ;o) ) > Period. > > Oh.. What Mystara lost when AD&D became the rage. Half elf exist on D&D : they are elf or human in class term and apparence, but they must leave a part from both parents ... In fact, when saying he can be half kobold half elf, i underline the fact that Kol can use clerical and magical spells and that spells list for elf listed in GAZ 5 have both ... No conclusion but doubt remains. But after all, who can imagine an elf falling in love of a kobold (even a glantrian prince one)? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:14:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Max Said: >>I doubt anyone takes G:KoM, or K:KoA very seriously. then Glen said: >I don't have the Glantri boxed set, but I like the Karameikos one; I have no >problems with it as far as 'canon' is concerned. The art is beautiful, and >the text evokes a feeling of fantasy that a lot of other products (including >the Gazetteers) don't have. I'm talking about the font that is used; >reading the Kingdom of Adventure books, I find it easier to picture >Karameikos as a true fantastic realm. > >Besides, there are no major deviations from previously accepted 'canon' >material. It just updates it to the post-WotI Mystara, and it looks great. It doesn't do that great a job of updating it, IMHO, seems to be far more of a reprint than an update. But what a reprint! The art is gorgeous, the layout evokes a wonderful feeling. I don't know why G:KOM (It's not a Kingdom!!! Ahem :) ) didn't manage this as well as K:KOA. Glantri also didn't do a great job of "updating", there's loads of inconsistancies in it... (On the other hand, the adventures in either of them...sigh...) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 01:33:39 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > Yeah, alignments are stupid. People are people. No one goes around saying >"I'm neutral evil." Alignments only stifle 3 dimensional characterization. >============BAHUMUTH People don't go running around saying I've got 82 HP. either- but in xD&D they do have them. Alignment is not meant, nor should it be used, as a strict adherance to the outlook. It is meant as the person's general outlook on life. I believe that the OD&D system was "misnomered" (hope I don't get crispy from the flames on this one) meaning Lawful=Good and Chaotic=Evil. That is how they appear to be used in all of the modules that I've got... In AD&D Lawful/Chaotic is the general lifestyle of the person, where Good/Evil are their ethics. Alignment makes a lot of sense and allows a "quick" outlook idea of the person. Nothing says that a NG person cannot perform a CE act on occasion. When he's committing more CE acts than NG ones is when he's no longer a NG character. The same goes for all of the other alignments. I believe that Alignments are one of the foundation concepts of the XD&D system and that their removal would be removing one of the key points of the game. I say: You don't like alignment- don't use it, but don't take them away from those who find them useful. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:23:46 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Alignments ARE useful... (ducks while half brick fly's overhead.) .. for the DM. i.e.. your magical sword is 'Lawful evil', and the average orc is 'Chaotic evil' But I NEVER use alignments for players. They play their characters as they want. (but if your paladin starts pushing old ladies under wagons instead of helping them over the street, then his god may stop giving him spells ...). So what I'm saying is that alignment should be used when describing how people (NPC's) will react/act towards other. It's just as useful as saying something like 'Bob the smith is a friendly guy who will trust the players if they don't do anything rude.' As a side note to bash the writers(sorry but I have to) does anybody remember that horrid rule about loosing XP/levels when changing alignments in AD&D? (whatever for? 'hey now I'm lawful neutral, I can't hit you using the sword thrust that I would have used when I was lawful good...') Subject: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, part 3 Wilhelm von Drachenfels At the end of 40-years-war Wilhelm was 40-years old. He has been battling over 20 years of his life. During the last 15 years he had build his grandfathers army again in prime shape. During his fathers time army's morale has decrease in considerable measures, Sigmund was never in field with his army and there was lack of inspiring leadership. Wilhelm has repaired all the damages, he had one by one removed all the Alphatian commanders of the Hattian troops and replaced them with his own men. After betraying Halzunthram he had rapidly become only second in command among rebel leaders after Alexander Glantri. After the war was over there began negotiations about the future of the Highlands and Alphatians remaining there. First decree of the new leaders was the expulsion of dwarves from Glantri. They have continued fighting even after Halzunthram's death so there was no mercy for them. Leaders agreed in their negotiations that they would declare Glantri as republic, that was an easy decision. Then they agree that there would be a parliament, composed of two bodies: Council and House of Lords. In Council there would be a seven members and in the House of Lords there are seated all the nobles. Members of the Council wuold represent major population groups. There wuold be one member for Flaems, one for elves, one for Ethengarians, one for Thyatians and Kerendans, one for Alphatians, who betrayed Halzunthram, one for Traladarans, who now also join the Republic and one for Hattians and Alphatians, who stay loyal to Halzunthram. (At this point d'Ambrevilles in the northwest stay outside of the new republic, they join the land later.) Last one was most controversial, because at first most thought that they should be expelled. But then Wilhelm said that he want to invite them among his Hattians, because most of their leaders are his wives relatives. He also promises that if there comes any difficulties he would take the responsibility. Others agree to this, mostly because they think that in that way they could weaken Wilhelm's powerbase. They also decide that all the aspiring nobles must make their claims to Council, which then examins them and declares which of them are valid. In 829 Alexander Glantri then declares the Republic of Highlands founded. Members of the new Council are Alexander Glantri, Wilhelm von Drachenfels, Frederick Vlaardoen, Fernando de Belcadiz, Birkai Virayana, Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany and Vortram. At the first meeting other members decide that the capital city of Braejr would now on be called as Glantri City. They also divide the Council positions: Vlaardoen is to Supreme Judge, Glantri Chancellor, de Belcadiz Chamberlain and Virayana Treasurer. In that point Wilhelm proposes that they should build three forts at the borders of the land and that each of the remaining members gets a responsibility for one of them. So Morphail gets the job of building fort against Ethengarian border, Vortram against Broken Lands and Wilhelm against Wendarian Mountains. Next years are peacefull for Wilhelm. He concentrates on building the Fort Nordling and family life. Then in 835 comes one of the most dramatic Council meetings ever. There are no controversial issues and all is peacefull until Vortram suddenly blasts Alexander Glantri to the ashes. Before others get Vortram down, he has also managed to kill Birkai Virayana. Vortram is promptly executed next day and Council declares him insane. Wilhelm is offered Glantris posotion as Chancellor but he refuses because he wants to build his fort. So new Chancellor is Lucchino di Sfonti, viscount of Sirecchia who becomes Thyatians and Kerendans representative after Glantri. Next week land is renamed as Republic of Glantri. Wilhelm von Drachenfels' last years are eventless besides above mentioned Council meeting. He dies in 840 at the age of 52. After the war heavy drinking and eating with few exercise deteoriate his health rapidly. Also the stress for fort building takes its toll, he makes new addition all the time and tries to make Fort Nordling best defended castle in the world. After 11 years of building its still not ready. t:Harri Mäki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:28:58 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame My dear dear friend and fellow Mystaran, methinks Rob refers to "The Hunchback of..." Written by....anyone? anyone? One hint...same guy who did Les Miserables... Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT wrote: > > From: Rob > >Despised as being "evil", but > > in actuality more pathetic (Notre Dame style) seems far more likely > > What's your problem with Notre Dame ? What everybody mean when using it ? > Does it have a special signification outside France ? > > Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT > à mag@mel.teamlog.fr > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:43:55 EDT From: BAHUMUTH2@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) What do you call a person who follows the law, but only in their own city? A character who will kill any other race without a tear but wouldn't dream of hurting someone of their own race's feelings? It would be different if alignments were just there but never applied, but the rules tell you to make sure the players act in character. I think players should have absolute freedom over their own actions and the DM has enough problems runnning the rest of the game for that. And what about Holy Word? And what is the deal with languages? I've never seen, in any fantasy book, show, movie, etc. the two badguys talking to each other in "chaotic". ============BAHUMUTH In a message dated 98-08-11 04:42:42 EDT, you write: << People don't go running around saying I've got 82 HP. either- but in xD&D they do have them. Alignment is not meant, nor should it be used, as a strict adherance to the outlook. It is meant as the person's general outlook on life. I believe that the OD&D system was "misnomered" (hope I don't get crispy from the flames on this one) meaning Lawful=Good and Chaotic=Evil. That is how they appear to be used in all of the modules that I've got... In AD&D Lawful/Chaotic is the general lifestyle of the person, where Good/Evil are their ethics. Alignment makes a lot of sense and allows a "quick" outlook idea of the person. Nothing says that a NG person cannot perform a CE act on occasion. When he's committing more CE acts than NG ones is when he's no longer a NG character. The same goes for all of the other alignments. I believe that Alignments are one of the foundation concepts of the XD&D system and that their removal would be removing one of the key points of the game. I say: You don't like alignment- don't use it, but don't take them away from those who find them useful. >> *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:44:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame daly said: >My dear dear friend and fellow Mystaran, methinks Rob refers to "The Hunchback >of..." > >Written by....anyone? anyone? > >One hint...same guy who did Les Miserables... Disney! It was them that wrote it!! :) :) Oh, OK, it was Victor Hugo, but I still really like the Disney film :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:48:30 EDT From: BAHUMUTH2@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? In a message dated 98-08-11 07:30:49 EDT, you write: << Alignments ARE useful... (ducks while half brick fly's overhead.) .. for the DM. i.e.. your magical sword is 'Lawful evil', and the average orc is 'Chaotic evil' > But I NEVER use alignments for players. > They play their characters as they want. (but if your paladin starts pushing > old ladies under wagons instead of helping them over the street, then his > god may stop giving him spells ...). You got a point. >So what I'm saying is that alignment should be used when describing how >people (NPC's) will react/act towards other. >It's just as useful as saying something like 'Bob the smith is a friendly >guy who will trust the players if they don't do anything rude.' Well, that's charisma. > > As a side note to bash the writers(sorry but I have to) does anybody > remember that horrid rule about loosing XP/levels when changing alignments > in AD&D? (whatever for? 'hey now I'm lawful neutral, I can't hit you using > the sword thrust that I would have used when I was lawful good...') > >> Hahaha! No kidding! Maybe the character is going through emotional turmoil due to his change in philosophy. ======BAHUMUTH *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:02:39 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame You are correct. Except for the Disney part. I can't believe you liked that tripe! Consider this my first full flame! Sheesh! I mean, in Victor Hugo's novel, the cardinal is the GOOD GUY, not some evil scheming religious fantatic. He was the only one who showed human compassion to the little hunched baby. Quite frankly, Disney's film disgusted me. Sorry for the nonMystaran thread...let's shift quick...okay, where could we put a Notre Dame? Certainly not in Averoigne...unless you somehow er...maybe Stephen's father...dunno. Maybe Bellayne on the Savage Coast. Gordon McCormick wrote: > daly said: > >My dear dear friend and fellow Mystaran, methinks Rob refers to "The Hunchback > >of..." > > > >Written by....anyone? anyone? > > > >One hint...same guy who did Les Miserables... > > Disney! It was them that wrote it!! :) :) > > Oh, OK, it was Victor Hugo, but I still really like the Disney film > :) > > gordon > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage >>Besides, there are no major deviations from previously accepted 'canon' >>material. It just updates it to the post-WotI Mystara, and it looks great. > >It doesn't do that great a job of updating it, IMHO, seems to be far >more of a reprint than an update. But what a reprint! The art is >gorgeous, the layout evokes a wonderful feeling. > There are some changes, though, especially in the characters section. The Royal Family has several new members, there's a new Minister of War, there's a Townmaster of Mirros who wasn't in the GAZ1, and there are entries for the Gnome-King fo Highforge and Lady Arteris Penhaligon. On the other hand, Patriach Jowett somehow has lived this long... >(On the other hand, the adventures in either of them...sigh...) > I like the adventures; they're perfect for getting new people interested in the game. Even the CD (cheesy as many people think) is well done. The initial track can set the mood for any adventure that begins in a tavern. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame At 08:28 AM 8/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >My dear dear friend and fellow Mystaran, methinks Rob refers to "The Hunchback >of..." > >Written by....anyone? anyone? > >One hint...same guy who did Les Miserables... > That depends...the real version was written by Victor Hugo. The happy, smiley version was done by Disney. I can just picture the shock on the faces of university students in ten years or so when they read the book... "But-but he's not supposed to die!!! Whaddaya mean she can't stand him? She's supposed to be his friend!! No, the bad guy is supposed to die, not the good guy! Why did they have to ruin a great movie?!" Sometimes I just can't stand Disney... Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:05:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame >Sorry for the nonMystaran thread...let's shift quick...okay, where could we put a >Notre Dame? Certainly not in Averoigne...unless you somehow er...maybe Stephen's >father...dunno. > >Maybe Bellayne on the Savage Coast. > I think you mean Renardie; Bellayne is the *British* equivalent on the SC. Maybe Quasimodo would be a deformed shadow elf...;-) Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:12:43 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame > That depends...the real version was written by Victor Hugo. The happy, > smiley version was done by Disney. I can just picture the shock on the > faces of university students in ten years or so when they read the book... > > "But-but he's not supposed to die!!! Whaddaya mean she can't stand him? > She's supposed to be his friend!! No, the bad guy is supposed to die, not > the good guy! Why did they have to ruin a great movie?!" > > Sometimes I just can't stand Disney... Don't worry Glen ... even in France books have been edited for kids where good guy win and bad die ... but truly, have you ever seen a film in US where the hero die ? good guy diiing is a "french specialisation" ;o) ... Lets have a look on our films & history ... Eg : - Jeanne d'arc during the hundread years war, - Gavroche and Jean Valgens in 'les misérables' - Léon in Léon (film if u know it ...) or even Jean Marc Barre in "Big blue" - Le professionnel ... Don't misunderstand, idon't say our good guy always die and the bad always win (after all i'malive ;o) ) but it seems to be caracteristic of our coutry. PS : Disney made a beautifull film ... It's cathedral looks like the true one (after all they use french graphist to draw it) but they've made a mistake with the sun : their orientation is wrong, but after all it's not very important ... Friendly, Marcus Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT à mag@mel.teamlog.fr http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:48:50 +0200 (METDST) From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 Magesmiley@aol.com wrote: > Hmmm I got jipped. My companion set didn't come with dice:( > And I do still have my original dice from my first basic set still too (yellow > and very rounded on the corners). Companion set with dices? I thought only Basic set had dices.. I got mines with the Basic set only! And Mischa Gelman wondered: <> Uh? More dices in the Expert set..? grrr.. I only got one set of dices with Basic books.. Anyway, my colors were: d4 - white d6 - black d8 - red d10 - yellow d12 - violet d20 - green But I've seen many other different versions.. the biggest dice I've seen is a d100 (a big ball actually), but there's also a useless d30 one of my players once bought.. Oh, and there are also those d6 for cheaters... I've seen them at work in my DMing life... :) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:20:24 +0200 From: "Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Cia Marco, You wrote (DM of course) > > Companion set with dices? I thought only Basic set had dices.. I got mines > with the Basic set only! I agree : even French edition didn't have dice within Companion edition, but (not sure of it) i think there were in Expert box (French edition again). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:28:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame > > Don't worry Glen ... even in France books have been edited for kids where > good guy win and bad die ... > *BOOKS* have been edited?!?!?!?!?!? It's one thing for an insipid company to churn out ahistorical crap and call it a "classic", but. . . . .*keels over* *minutes later, someone brings in smelling salts* *Porphy starts screeding again, still groggy from the shock* BUT to actually edit the BOOKS themselves?!?!?!?!?!? I hear France has a Ministry of Culture. Perhaps they should call it the MiniTrue, if they're going to toss things down memory holes like that. *Appalled look* (Next someone will tell me that their editing books in my own country. Please don't. Let me live in my deluded fantasy that somehow all is right with the world and we aren't living some twisted version of Ninteen Eighty-Four. I *ALREADY* know how prevalent the replacement of real terminology with politically "approved" euphemisms ["NEWSPEAK"] is. Let me keep my one remaining illusion.) but truly, have you ever seen a film in US > where the hero die ? good guy diiing is a "french specialisation" ;o) ... > Lets have a look on our films & history ... > Eg : - Jeanne d'arc during the hundread years war, > - Gavroche and Jean Valgens in 'les misérables' > - Léon in Léon (film if u know it ...) or even Jean Marc Barre in > "Big blue" > - Le professionnel ... > Don't misunderstand, idon't say our good guy always die and the bad always > win (after all i'malive ;o) ) but it seems to be caracteristic of our > coutry. > > PS : Disney made a beautifull film ... It's cathedral looks like the true > one (after all they use french graphist to draw it) but they've made a > mistake with the sun : their orientation is wrong, but after all it's not > very important ... > > Friendly, > Marcus > > Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT > à mag@mel.teamlog.fr > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:18:40 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? >As a side note to bash the writers(sorry but I have to) does anybody >remember that horrid rule about loosing XP/levels when changing alignments >in AD&D? (whatever for? 'hey now I'm lawful neutral, I can't hit you using >the sword thrust that I would have used when I was lawful good...') >Christian Götschi Sorry, but I still use that xp loss. No, you don't change sword usage- but it's called a role-playing penalty. If you choose an alignment, then don't stay within its guidelines then you're not properly playing your character, thus you lose xp. and I change your alignment to match what you're playing. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:31:55 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > What do you call a person who follows the law, but only in their own city? >A character who will kill any other race without a tear but wouldn't dream of >hurting someone of their own race's feelings? Incomplete. Does he keep his word? Does he prefer to use drugs or not? How neat does he like to live? Does he enjoy killing or causing undue pain and suffering? All of these combined make a person an alignment- not just one part. What your example above is is like me showing you a picture of an eye and saying "who does it belong to?". Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- unfailingly 100% of the time... > It would be different if alignments were just there but never applied, but >the rules tell you to make sure the players act in character. I think players >should have absolute freedom over their own actions and the DM has enough >problems runnning the rest of the game for that. And what about Holy Word? And >what is the deal with languages? I've never seen, in any fantasy book, show, >movie, etc. the two badguys talking to each other in "chaotic". >============BAHUMUTH The rules also tell you to keep Clerics within their religion, to keep Paladins within their honor code. Do you give your players absolute freedom in these aspects as well? What about Holy Word? Now, on "alignment languages" I've cut those from my games about the time that I went to 1st ed. AD&D from OD&D, so I'm not even going to try to vouch for them. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #559 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 560 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:38:14 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? >>So what I'm saying is that alignment should be used when describing how >>people (NPC's) will react/act towards other. >>It's just as useful as saying something like 'Bob the smith is a friendly >>guy who will trust the players if they don't do anything rude.' > Well, that's charisma. Sorry Bahumuth, I'm not picking on you- really I'm not :-) But... What about the Half-Orc who doesn't know how to get his point across to others, gets flustered when trying to speak to people- or just remains quiet so that he doesn't mess things up (IE. Low Charisma) and has a good heart... He's "Bob the smith, a friendly guy who will trust the players if they don't do anything rude" ? Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:52:12 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame >Maybe Bellayne on the Savage Coast. Uh? Maybe Renardy? (Though I think Hammer did a film rip off of the Hunchback...) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:56:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Jesse claimed: >Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- >unfailingly 100% of the time... Cool, I don't use alignments in my game, but would be fascinated to know what alignments would fit the PC's! They've got lots of background material about them, a lot of it on the web at http://mystara.ucd.ie/dnd/glantri/characters/ Feel free to peruse and offers opinions Jesse! (Though there is a *lot* of stuff, I doubt anyone would have the time to read through it all) Just to continue with the character below, it sounds a tad like Jan Hogel, so I'll try and fill in the blanks... >> What do you call a person who follows the law, but only in their own city? Actually, only in his own country. He'll follow the law elsewhere unless it strikes him as wrong. That would be most Alphatian laws :) >>A character who will kill any other race without a tear but wouldn't dream >of hurting someone of their own race's feelings? Hmm, actually he wouldn't dream of hurting his friends, wouldn't be too bothered about innocents getting killed (wouldn't be happy about it, but wouldn't get ridiculously upset at 200000 Alphatians burning to death). >Incomplete. Does he keep his word? Oh yes. That's one thing he very much does. see http://mystara.ucd.ie/dnd/glantri/jan/tower.html for the deaths that that causes :) > Does he prefer to use drugs or not? He doesn't use drugs. They would impede his abilities... >How neat does he like to live? Oooh, very neat. Well, for a Flaemish noble... >Does he enjoy killing or causing undue pain and suffering? Nope. Enjoys retribution though. Enjoys seeing people pay for what they've done to him, his friends or his country. >All of these combined make a person an alignment- not just one part. What >your example above is is like me showing you a picture of an eye and saying >"who does it belong to?". Of course, those are the answers I'd give, he's not my character though, so they may be wrong... Just curious about alignments... (We were rekoning he'd be CN, but he sounds more L in that description...hmm...the other two would probably be LG and NG although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he good?) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:00:34 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? I think you should try to describe your character with an alignment, rather than vice versa. Seems that there is a tendency to allow alignment to dictate a characters actions ("i would do this, but im neutral good, so i wont..."). You should be able to (in the broadest sense) best fit an alignment to the characters personality. The only assumption is that the characters personality is consistent enough to be described by an alignment. If hes not tho, either the player isnt really role playing very well, or the character should be chaotic neutral :) I dont make ppl pick their alignment. I let em play a couple of sessions without one, then i assign them one. If they change, then the alignment changes as well (im not too bothered about alignment shock - there is only one person who i would consider alignment shocking IMC :). As far as game effect - alignment only really has any Rulz based effects when things like know alignment and aligned items turn up. In the case of know alignment what the caster is looking for is stuff like - can i trust this guy? is likely to be a lying deceitful piece of trash? is generally a nice guy? that sort of general thing. For that, i see no problem with alignment. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:03:11 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? >> As a side note to bash the writers(sorry but I have to) does anybody >> remember that horrid rule about loosing XP/levels when changing alignments >> in AD&D? (whatever for? 'hey now I'm lawful neutral, I can't hit you using >> the sword thrust that I would have used when I was lawful good...') >> >> > > Hahaha! No kidding! Maybe the character is going through emotional turmoil >due to his change in philosophy. Actually - thats what is says :) (In 2nd ed, anyway :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:03:32 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- unfailingly > 100% > of the time... > Point is, though, at least from my perspective, if you *have* a "whole character", with well described personality, etc., then you don't *need* an alignment. You can be rewarded or punished for acting "in character" or "out of character" (and/or rewarded or punished for changing/evolving the character in interesting ways as a result of events.) The guy (sorry, can't remember who, could've been you) who said that alignment is a useful tool/short hand for NPCs was on to something (at least for less important ones), perhaps. But for important NPCs, and PCs, IMO alignment is a relic, and an unessissary one. Also, to put my "two cents" into the "if your alignment changes, or you act outside your alignment, you loose exps or levels" argument: I'd say that if you do so with no apparent reason, or act "out of character" inexplicably, then this should apply. But if someone's character changes due to, say, a traumatic event or a "revelation" of some kind, in ways that exemplify good role playing (I.E. something based on the *character's* reactions, not the whim of the *player* acting without good cause), I would tend to *reward*, not punish, such a change. In this way alignment is also a (minor) impediment, IMO, because they encourage characters to remain within (ill-defined and yes, somewhat flexable) pigeonholes. Most *real* people are a mass of contradictions, IMO, and might behave in a "chaotic" fashion at some times under some circumstances while acting "lawfully" in other times other other circumstances. Hmmmn. . . .I'm not explaining this that well. Anyhow, one of my favorite recient AD&D products was the "Complete Book of Villians", because it describes how to "flesh out" and give life to what could be card-board cut-outs, and also it exemplifies that their are several different "Neutralities" and "Lawful-Neutrals" etc. Not just "One Way". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:15:32 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) {This is Jenni, breaking into 'off-topic' mode because she just couldn't resist...} At 10:28 AM 8/11/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >*BOOKS* have been edited?!?!?!?!?!? >[...] >(Next someone will tell me that their editing books in my own country. >Please don't. Let me live in my deluded fantasy that somehow all is right >with the world and we aren't living some twisted version of Ninteen >Eighty-Four. I *ALREADY* know how prevalent the replacement of real >terminology with politically "approved" euphemisms ["NEWSPEAK"] is. Let me >keep my one remaining illusion.) {talking to everyone on the list except James...} I suppose he's never heard of "Lamb's Shakespeare"... And I distinctly remember reading a copy of "Gulliver's Travels" in my Elementary school library at 8 and then again in my High School library at 14 and being quite astounded at the difference... I also wonder if he's ever picked up any "non-disney" version of a fairy tale such as Cinderella and then compared it to the "original" Grim's or Hans Christian Anderson's version... (ouch!) Heck, even comparing something as innoccuous as the "original" editions of a "Hardy Boys" or "Nancy Drew" Mystery book to the same stories that are published today can prove enlightening. But then, he doesn't want his illusions shattered... does he? ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:08:05 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's > all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he > good?) > On this, I'd say "NO". It doesn't matter what the character's (subjective) opinion of his own actions and character is: what matters is the (objective) results of his activities. Most "evil" folk don't go around saying "yep, I'm evil. I act this way because I'm a horrible person." Some strange and/or psychotic (though not sociopathic) people may envision themselves this way ("I'm bad to the bone" is part of their image), but *most* evil folks think that what they do is justified. Their opinion doesn't make them candidates for Paladin status, however. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:25:00 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >> although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's >> all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he >> good?) >> >On this, I'd say "NO". > It doesn't matter what the character's (subjective) opinion of his own >actions and character is: what matters is the (objective) results of his >activities. This sort of thing has always been a prickly point about alignment. But I go by the Star Wars principle - there is good, there is evil, they are fairly clearly defined - and ignorance of the law cannot be allowed to become a defence :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:27:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em I said: >> although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's >> all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he >> good?) And James retorted: >On this, I'd say "NO". >It doesn't matter what the character's (subjective) opinion of his own >actions and character is: what matters is the (objective) results of his >activities. This is where we encounter problems with objective definitions of evil, but when it comes down to it they can be solved pretty easily...whatever the DM thinks is evil, is evil. There, that should avoid another boring slavery is evil thread :) >Most "evil" folk don't go around saying "yep, I'm evil. I act this way >because I'm a horrible person." Exactly, I agree very much on this one. >Some strange and/or psychotic (though not sociopathic) people may envision >themselves this way ("I'm bad to the bone" is part of their image), but A lot of them tend to play Warhammer too :) >*most* evil folks think that what they do is justified. Their opinion >doesn't make them candidates for Paladin status, however. Again this is where I'm unsure. The character I was talking about (his name's Alonzo, a glantrian elf in the Army), has just authorised the use of Terrorists in Alphatia. He *knows* that they're going to kill innocent people, but he knows also that unless things change, Glantri is doomed, his friends, family, countrymen etc, will be killed. Is this wrong? (I think so personally, but that's just me...) And if the objective result of his behaviour (killing innocents in amongst the military targets) is to encourage enough Peace Lovers in Alphatia (Terari, the Elves) to convince the Council to stop the war? Was it then a good act? If it goes wrong and encourages more violence is it suddenly evil? (actually a bit of both will happen...does that cancel the good/evil out?) When a Paladin rides into an Orc camp and slaughters everyone in it, is he being good? Even the women and children? (If he doesn't they're going to try and kill him....) These are very tricky situations, whenever things come down to kill or be killed, good and evil become even more subjective... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:32:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em I warbled: >>> although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's >>> all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he >>> good?) James responded: >>On this, I'd say "NO". >> It doesn't matter what the character's (subjective) opinion of his own >>actions and character is: what matters is the (objective) results of his >>activities. And Rob threw in: >This sort of thing has always been a prickly point about alignment. But I >go by the Star Wars principle - there is good, there is evil, they are >fairly clearly defined - and ignorance of the law cannot be allowed to >become a defence :) Aww, that's how kids get away with it! Hmm, actually you have a point, we could do with some kids being a bit less evil! :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:31:46 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Hello Gordon, >Jesse claimed: >>Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- >>unfailingly 100% of the time... >Feel free to peruse and offers opinions Jesse! (Though there is a >*lot* of stuff, I doubt anyone would have the time to read through it >all) Thanks for the address. I'm not going to go through the site to prove my point- but I'll let you know what I think when I've had time to look it over. >Just to continue with the character below, it sounds a tad like Jan >Hogel, so I'll try and fill in the blanks... >> What do you call a person who follows the law, but only in their own city? >Actually, only in his own country. He'll follow the law elsewhere >unless it strikes him as wrong. That would be most Alphatian laws :) This is a sign of a lawful character. Lawfuls don't follow all laws, only those that they feel apply to them. In the case of following the laws of his country- he feels bound by them, and those of other countries that he feels are appropriate (I'd suggest, based off of your statement that the ones that he follows in other countries are very similar to his own, or not covered at all by his own country's laws). >>A character who will kill any other race without a tear but wouldn't dream >>of hurting someone of their own race's feelings? >Hmm, actually he wouldn't dream of hurting his friends, wouldn't be >too bothered about innocents getting killed (wouldn't be happy about >it, but wouldn't get ridiculously upset at 200000 Alphatians burning >to death). This is a generally Neutral trait. >>Incomplete. Does he keep his word? >Oh yes. That's one thing he very much does. This is a Lawful trait, although many people prefer to consider it a good one- there are times when one's word is given to cause evil... >> Does he prefer to use drugs or not? >He doesn't use drugs. They would impede his abilities... Another mark of a Lawful Character. He prefers to have control in his life. Doesn't take drugs, and probably doesn't like anything that makes him lose control of a situation. >>How neat does he like to live? >Oooh, very neat. Well, for a Flaemish noble... Another sign of a Lawful lifestyle. >>Does he enjoy killing or causing undue pain and suffering? >Nope. Enjoys retribution though. Enjoys seeing people pay for what >they've done to him, his friends or his country. A sense of justice is Lawful. If his joy at seeing people pay is in an extreme then it may be a neutral to evil trait. If he over-compensates (IE. A Head for an Eye) then it probably isn't lawful though- then you're looking at Neutral or Chaotic and a Non-Good tendency here as well. >>All of these combined make a person an alignment- not just one part. What >>your example above is is like me showing you a picture of an eye and saying >>"who does it belong to?". >Of course, those are the answers I'd give, he's not my character >though, so they may be wrong... I'd assess a LN character based on the information above. >Just curious about alignments... >(We were rekoning he'd be CN, but he sounds more L in that >description...hmm...the other two would probably be LG and NG >although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's >all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he >good?) >gordon Actions done in the name of "God" and "Country" are not what make them good or evil, but the reasons for them, and the action itself. If he is causing undue pain and suffering then he's not good (See: The Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials). I'm going to post my views of alignment as soon as I'm finished with this letter- look it over and see if it gives you some ideas. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:52:43 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >> Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- >>unfailingly 100% of the time... >Point is, though, at least from my perspective, if you *have* a "whole >character", with well described personality, etc., then you don't *need* an >alignment. You can be rewarded or punished for acting "in character" or >"out of character" (and/or rewarded or punished for changing/evolving the >character in interesting ways as a result of events.) This is true... partially. I say that because then the times that it becomes an issue are when handling aligned items, and when alignment checks come into play (like Know Alignment). Other than a few classes which require specific alignments- but I wave those restrictions in my games allowing for good/evil druids, evil rangers and paladins, etc. One nice thing about it is I ask "What alignment are you playing" and the player answers. I know whether he's going to save or kill the damsel- generally. I know if he's going to ally with the *bad guy* or kill him. I know my city guards better keep on their toes... And he doesn't have to give me a 20 min. lecture on what his character will/won't do. A good character performs an evil action- oh well, everyone has bad days. He's performing 10 evil actions to 1 good one... hmm... not very good to me. I use an alignment graph with "shady" characters and shift them accordingly. > The guy (sorry, can't remember who, could've been you) who said that >alignment is a useful tool/short hand for NPCs was on to something (at >least for less important ones), perhaps. But for important NPCs, and PCs, >IMO alignment is a relic, and an unessissary one. That was me and someone else I believe. When you're developing a major NPC, the alignment is the starting point for fleshing out the attitude- then you work in the personality. Immediate thought: Is he a law-abiding person, lawless or somewhere in between? Is he a *good* or *bad* guy? You've probably already done this part before you even begin working out the personality. An experienced DM does that, but for newer ones the alignment is a much simpler method than most. Also, there are far more "lesser" than major NPC's in most games. > Also, to put my "two cents" into the "if your alignment changes, or you >act outside your alignment, you loose exps or levels" argument: I'd say >that if you do so with no apparent reason, or act "out of character" >inexplicably, then this should apply. Agreed whole-heartedly :-) >But if someone's character changes due to, say, a traumatic event or a >"revelation" of some kind, in ways that exemplify good role playing >(I.E. something based on the *character's* reactions, not the whim of the >*player* acting without good cause), I would tend to *reward*, not punish, >such a change. This, again, is agreed. This reminds me of a set-up that I have in my game. Basically, the 7th of Jan. is called "Solitara" (From Arduin Grimoire) and the Elves use it as a holiday (many of them anyway) to look in upon themselves. A 24 hr. reverie in which they reminisce over their lives- and often change alignments immediately for no apparent reason to an outsider... Helms of opposite alignment, and the like... Becoming an avenger for wrongs things like that- yes, I allow an alignment change without penalty. > In this way alignment is also a (minor) impediment, IMO, because they >encourage characters to remain within (ill-defined and yes, somewhat >flexable) pigeonholes. Most *real* people are a mass of contradictions, >IMO, and might behave in a "chaotic" fashion at some times under some >circumstances while acting "lawfully" in other times other other >circumstances. Again, my opinion on this is that is that the alignment system is well defined but poorly carried out by TSR. Also, as I've stated, alignment is supposed to be the over-all view of the person, not every action that they perform. It is very inflexible in all actuality. You're either this way or not... > Hmmmn. . . .I'm not explaining this that well. Anyhow, one of my favorite >recient AD&D products was the "Complete Book of Villians", because it >describes how to "flesh out" and give life to what could be card-board >cut-outs, and also it exemplifies that their are several different >"Neutralities" and "Lawful-Neutrals" etc. Not just "One Way". I think this is probably TSR's most recent attempt at defining the alignment system. Because of the discussion that has gone on with this- I'm going to be posting my definition shortly. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:54:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >>Jesse claimed: >>>Give me the whole character- and I will give you an alignment- >>>unfailingly 100% of the time... >>Feel free to peruse and offers opinions Jesse! (Though there is a >>*lot* of stuff, I doubt anyone would have the time to read through it >>all) > > Thanks for the address. I'm not going to go through the site to >prove my point That's OK! In a discussion it's a poor play to say "Read these books first then get back to me" I didn't mean it like that. :) I just really would be interested in what alignments you thought the characters would be, you seem to have a good grasp of the strengths of the alignment system (I don't, cos I don't use it :) ) > but I'll let you know what I think when I've had time to look it over. Thanks! >(I'd suggest, based off of your statement that the ones that he follows in >othercountries are very similar to his own, or not covered at all by his >own country's laws). yup, I think so. >This is a Lawful trait, although many people prefer to >consider it a good one- there are times when one's word >is given to cause evil... Very much so...(OT: Sheridan gives his word to some Ambassadors in season 5 of Babylon 5 to go along with their plans...disasterous results but he has to stick by his word...) >Another mark of a Lawful Character. He prefers to have >control in his life. Doesn't take drugs, and probably doesn't >like anything that makes him lose control of a situation. Actually, that out of all of them most makes me think he may be Lawful! >I'd assess a LN character based on the information above. Cool, I think I'll enjoy the players reactions to this! Certainly give us more stuff to discuss (always a good thing!) >Actions done in the name of "God" and "Country" are not what make >them good or evil, but the reasons for them, and the action itself. I'm not sure I follow you here, but I think you're saying that the reasons for the action, as well as the action are what make it good or evil. When I was saying he's doing it for the good of the country, I meant exactly that. He's doing it to save all the people he knows, all his friends and family from being killed in a horrific war (or at least have their lives overturned by it if not actually killed) >I'm going to post my views of alignment as soon as I'm finished with >this letter- look it over and see if it gives you some ideas. It certainly does, thanks very much! gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:01:03 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) > > {talking to everyone on the list except James...} > But referencing me continuously 8-)~ > > And I distinctly remember reading a copy of "Gulliver's Travels" in my > Elementary school library at 8 and then again in my High School library at > 14 and being quite astounded at the difference... > Perhaps it's because I grew up in a "university town" (Madison, Wis.), and went to schools filled with the litterati (Randal Elementary, West High), but I, thankfully or not, was not exposed to corrupted versions of the classics. > I also wonder if he's ever picked up any "non-disney" version of a fairy > tale such as Cinderella and then compared it to the "original" Grim's or > Hans Christian Anderson's version... (ouch!) > I was never big on "fairy tails", even as a child, so. . . . > Heck, even comparing something as innoccuous as the "original" editions > of a "Hardy Boys" or "Nancy Drew" Mystery book to the same stories that are > published today can prove enlightening. > Thankfully, I'm old (relatively speaking), and my "formative years" were spent before everything was "child proofed", and dispite my age, I am currently childless, and thus shielded somewhat from the societal corruption that is imposed on our poor younger generation. > But then, he doesn't want his illusions shattered... does he? ;-) > Just call me "Winston". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #560 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 561 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:11:26 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em I'm starting to worry about this list. Surely all of you don't have trouble telling good from evil. The alignment system is a description of a character's actions over all. An evil character doesn't wake up, beat his wife and kids then goes out to plot. And a good character doesn't stand around smiling pleasantly when a wagon wheel throws mud all over him. The system is the most generalized stat in D&D. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:11:29 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em James wrote: *most* evil folks think that what they do is justified. Their opinion doesn't make them candidates for Paladin status, however. To which Gordon replied: Again this is where I'm unsure. The character I was talking about (his name's Alonzo, a glantrian elf in the Army), has just authorised the use of Terrorists in Alphatia. He *knows* that they're going to kill innocent people, but he knows also that unless things change, Glantri is doomed, his friends, family, countrymen etc, will be killed. Is this wrong? (I think so personally, but that's just me...) And if the objective result of his behaviour (killing innocents in amongst the military targets) is to encourage enough Peace Lovers in Alphatia (Terari, the Elves) to convince the Council to stop the war? Was it then a good act? If it goes wrong and encourages more violence is it suddenly evil? (actually a bit of both will happen...does that cancel the good/evil out?) When a Paladin rides into an Orc camp and slaughters everyone in it, is he being good? Even the women and children? (If he doesn't they're going to try and kill him....) These are very tricky situations, whenever things come down to kill or be killed, good and evil become even more subjective... To which I reply: Your above examples are tricky situations and point out the beauty of the alignment system :-) You see, often a person does not have a choice of "good" or "evil" actions but of the better of two "goods" or the better of two "evils" to choose from... The use of treachery and betrayal is not a good act, but when it is going to keep a greater evil from occurring- then it's the better act- and a "good" character will do it but hesitantly and making sure that there isn't a "better" alternative. A Paladin wholesale slaughtering anything is an evil action. To give an example, let's take a conversational excerpt from a game (made up of course). Player: I ride in and slay everything that moves. During the battle, the player comes to the realization that his character has lost his ability to "Lay on Hands" when he tries to heal himself. A brief discussion is had- anger starts to rise, and the DM calls a halt to the game to work it out with the player :-) DM: Slaying the women and children is an evil act. This is something that your deity would not allow... Player: Yeah, but if I don't kill them then there will be more Orcs in the area later to reinfest this place and many innocent people will die... This is player rationalization and justification for an evil act. Did the DM give his character divination to tell the future? How does he know that they will re-infest the area? How does he know that there's not one orc in there that will happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? To all of those questions- he doesn't. Any more than he knows that those orcs will re-infest the area. These are "what ifs" and nothing more. The actual point is this: Is the wholesale slaughter of a Race, including women and children a "good" act? What decides this: Ultimately, the DM. But, the players probably play a big part in this decision as well. Hope this helps. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:14:03 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > This is where we encounter problems with objective definitions of > evil, but when it comes down to it they can be solved pretty > easily...whatever the DM thinks is evil, is evil. There, that should > avoid another boring slavery is evil thread :) > I'd agree with that: after all, this is a *game*, not a philosophy seminar. We can debate what is "evil" IRL, but agree to simplify the definition of wickedness for game purposes (though some interesting and entertaining diatribes. . .er, discourses. . .have resulted from "in-game" arguments over whether so and so can do such and such and whether it is "good" or "evil" or "chaotic" to do so. Ultimately, of course, such things are decided by DM fiat. "It's good to be king.") > >*most* evil folks think that what they do is justified. Their opinion > >doesn't make them candidates for Paladin status, however. > > Again this is where I'm unsure. The character I was talking about > (his name's Alonzo, a glantrian elf in the Army), has just authorised > the use of Terrorists in Alphatia. He *knows* that they're going to > kill innocent people, but he knows also that unless things change, > Glantri is doomed, his friends, family, countrymen etc, will be > killed. Is this wrong? (I think so personally, but that's just me...) > That's why the D&D alignments are IMO better. I'd say that such actions certainly aren't Lawful Good, but you *could* argue that they are Chaotic Good (being defined as interested in achieving the "good" for you, your friends, people you know, your nation [perhaps], but less interested in benificence for folks you don't know and are foreigners anyhow.), but only so long as your "Terror Squads" try inso far as is possible to avoid unessissary killing of innocent people. Otherwise perhaps "neutral", but again IMO trying to decide whether this is "the decient thing to do" might just be an impediment to playing the game and having fun (which is the telos of RPGs). > And if the objective result of his behaviour (killing innocents in > amongst the military targets) is to encourage enough Peace Lovers in > Alphatia (Terari, the Elves) to convince the Council to stop the war? > >From this argument you *might* be able to argue that it is Lawful Good (the death of the few leading to many more lives being saved by shortening the war: "Greatest good for the greatest number"). However, I think we "intuitively" know that "Death Squads" are *not* Lawful Good behavior. > When a Paladin rides into an Orc camp and slaughters everyone in it, > is he being good? Even the women and children? (If he doesn't they're > going to try and kill him....) > What is this, Unforgiven? Are you Will Mumy? ("Yes, I've killed women and children. . . ") There is/are a couple TD articles that debate about this very thing (can't remember the #s, though). Basically, I'd say that Orcs were put in the game to be killed; that's their game role. You can put all kind of strictures on *especially* Paladins that would make them unplayable (in effect), but again I think that the above more shows the weakness of alignments in general (as opposed to a "code of behavior" that could be, and has been, detailed for Paladin's to follow). > These are very tricky situations, whenever things come down to kill > or be killed, good and evil become even more subjective... > When it comes down to "kill or be killed", *in*game* it is not subjective: adventurers kill creatures (and people). That doesn't make them all evil by definition. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:20:34 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Gordon Wrote: That's OK! In a discussion it's a poor play to say "Read these books first then get back to me" I didn't mean it like that. :) I just really would be interested in what alignments you thought the characters would be, you seem to have a good grasp of the strengths of the alignment system (I don't, cos I don't use it :) ) I didn't think that you were trying to put it like that. I'd be more than happy to assess their alignments if you'd care to give a little bit of information about each one of them to me. >>This is a Lawful trait, although many people prefer to >>consider it a good one- there are times when one's word >>is given to cause evil... >Very much so...(OT: Sheridan gives his word to some Ambassadors >in season 5 of Babylon 5 to go along with their plans...disasterous >results but he has to stick by his word...) Sheridan is definitely Lawful Good with more of the emphasis on Good I think... >>I'd assess a LN character based on the information above. >Cool, I think I'll enjoy the players reactions to this! Certainly >give us more stuff to discuss (always a good thing!) Hey, let me know how that discussion goes. I like to hear thoughts on this type of thing :-) >>Actions done in the name of "God" and "Country" are not what make >>them good or evil, but the reasons for them, and the action itself. >I'm not sure I follow you here, but I think you're saying that the >reasons for the action, as well as the action are what make it good >or evil. When I was saying he's doing it for the good of the country, >I meant exactly that. He's doing it to save all the people he knows, >all his friends and family from being killed in a horrific war (or >at least have their lives overturned by it if not actually killed) Not really. The Inquistion was definitely one of the darker events in human history although it was in the name of "God". Many things are done in the name of god or country- but evil is evil. When he's doing an *evil* action (like wholesale slaughter, treachery, assassination) to stop a greater evil from occurring (mass destruction of home, friends, etc.) he's not doing a good thing either way- he's choosing the better of two evils. Now, if he takes great pleasure in the evils that he's committing- then he's not a good character but an evil one... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:28:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Galwylin wrote: >I'm starting to worry about this list. I do all the time too, btu for different reasons :) I think I've asked too many questions about alignment I don't want another Glantri/Ethengar! > Surely all of you don't have trouble telling good from evil. Umn....actually? Sometimes... >The alignment system is a description >of a character's actions over all. An evil character doesn't wake up, >beat his wife and kids then goes out to plot. And a good character >doesn't stand around smiling pleasantly when a wagon wheel throws mud >all over him. The system is the most generalized stat in D&D. Fair doos. Another thing that Jesse mentioned was that of the good character faced with a choice of only evil things. He goes for the lesser of the evils. (*exactly* what happened in an adventure of ours, since titled the lesser evil, where Alonzo sent two hundred refugees to their deaths. It was the "gooder" thing to do). On that note, I think I'll shut up about alignments, cos I've talked to much already (see what happends when I can't get onto the MMB! :) Not that I talk a lot there, there's just so much to read!) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:25:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > An experienced DM does that, but for newer ones the alignment is a much > simpler method than most. Also, there are far more "lesser" than major NPC's > in > most games. > THat is certainly true. However, I think that for most of us, for the 'major' NPCs at least, we don't start with an alignment, but with what "role" the person will play in the adventure and/or campaign. Side Point: many, if not most, games get by very well without alignments at all, and it's still possible to design adventures. Taking a couple examples from one such game, folks can decide that, for example, Ehran the Scribe ("Wordsmyth") is Lawful Evil, or Lawful Neutral, or whatever, based on if I tell you what Ehran the Scribe believes, how he acts and has acted, and what his goals are, but it hasn't really impeded his usefulness to not have an alignment up and until now. Similarly, you might describe Dunkelezhan (The Big 'D') as Neutral Good or Lawful Good or Chaotic Good, but the fact that he didn't have an "alignment" until you assigned one to him didn't get in the way of his being a well-drawn NPC. Harlequin (Laughing Man) is clearly "chaotic" (good? neutral?) (at least right now), but again putting the label on him before or after the fact doesn't really change anything, from a game-play perspective. IMO, even for NPCs "alignments" can prove an impediment to story telling: Ehran the Scribe can torture the characters in one adventure, and lavish them with generous aid in another, because he's not Iuz ("Chaotic Evil"): how he behaves towards the characters depends on his personality, his goals, and what relations the characters have to each at the time, not a simplistic label. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:33:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em James said: >Otherwise perhaps "neutral", but again IMO trying to decide whether this >is "the decient thing to do" might just be an impediment to playing the >game and having fun (which is the telos of RPGs). Actually a lot of the in character debate about what to do in these situations is a lot of fun! (At least for our group). It depends on the tone we're trying to create, sometimes we just let rip and have orc hordes getting slaughtered :) laters, gordon Gordon McCormick Unix Team System Management UCD Computing Services Belfield Dublin 4 Ireland +353 1 7062017 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:37:44 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >The actual point is this: Is the wholesale slaughter of a Race, including >women >and children a "good" act? Not on Krynn (Kingpriest of Istar). :) (Hes cool (for a non-Mystaran) - any alignment debate has to bring him up at some point) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:35:17 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) Firstly, about the alignment thing: at least we found a topic that more than just me and Rob are screeding on. 8-)~ Secondly, regarding the below, I feel the need to "revise and extend" my remarks: > > > I was never big on "fairy tails", even as a child, so. . . . > I suppose one *could* consider the Narnia books akin to "fairy tails", and if you do then the above is not precisely accurate, since I did read (and love) thouse books (and still have my set of 'em here somewhere). In fact, they were probably my "gateway" to role-playing in the first place, if anything could truely be said to have been. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:38:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > Not on Krynn (Kingpriest of Istar). > I stoped reading the Krynn books, and can't remember: did this slag continue to recieve spells from Paladine, or not? That's always one "sign" that a cleric (at least) is behaving within their alignment. Of course, having your nation get cratered is a sure sign that you're *not* acting as your god(s) would want, so. . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:44:44 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Gordon McCormick wrote: > > Fair doos. Another thing that Jesse mentioned was that of the good > character faced with a choice of only evil things. He goes for the > lesser of the evils. (*exactly* what happened in an adventure of > ours, since titled the lesser evil, where Alonzo sent two hundred > refugees to their deaths. It was the "gooder" thing to do). Can't say I'd ever use a situation where the best you could do means two hundred people had to die. Now, if their deaths involved something like leading a large group to safety, I suppose that is the best you can do. You must give tough choices to make though 'Alonzo sent' makes me wonder. > On that note, I think I'll shut up about alignments, cos I've talked > to much already (see what happends when I can't get onto the MMB! :) > Not that I talk a lot there, there's just so much to read!) I've been having problems today also. I hate to skip a day since that means 200 posts to read tomorrow :) - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:47:24 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Hey all, I know that this is generally not on topic with Mystara- but I've seen a lot of those threads and since the alignment discussion has made a good topic for discussion on the list, and it is related to Mystara- I've decided to post this at the risk of a warning from the Moderator. All I can say is that I make this post because I feel that the alignment system was a major root of the XD&D systems and that it should be kept within them. The only way that it will stay is if enough people understand it and use it and shout if TSR takes it away. Also, I hope that people will find this useful... First of all, alignment is not a "hard and fast" ruling of what a character can and cannot do. It is a general lifestyle of the character both on the Organizational (Lawful/Chaotic) and on the Ethical (Good/Evil) axises (Is that the proper plural of axis?). Lawful/Chaotic: A Lawful person keeps his word, has a neat orderly lifestyle, Obeys a set of laws, Has a code of honor, Plans things in his life well, Does not prefer to use Intoxicants because they make him lose control, He has a good sense of Personal Discipline and is generally of great Character. A Chaotic person is, obviously, the reverse... Good/Evil: A good person enjoys helping others, Does not cause pain and suffering especially if it isn't necessary. Since most of us have a good understanding of what good and evil are- we don't need a full-blown description... Alright, when you combine these two axises, you come up with the 9 alignments discussed in the AD&D system. Now we come to the crux that causes all of the problems in people fully understanding Alignment- and I'll say that this is by and far where the alignment system as defined by TSR has fallen short... Neutral: AD&D has defined this branch of the alignment system as a "balancing force" when in actuality it is not.. On an Organizational axis the Neutral character does not do a Lawful act to counter-balance a Chaotic act. He does whatever best suits him at the time. Most people think that this is Chaotic. The difference is that the Neutral weighs it out and chooses what best suits him... The Chaotic rashly acts upon what immediately looks best. On an Ethical axis the Neutral character does not do a Good act to counter-balance an Evil one. He doesn't care what's good or evil. He does whatever best fits his Organizational counter-part. Now, TSR made LG and CE the extremes of alignment- another mistake!!! The Extremes are the Neutrals. Here's how: LN: He doesn't care about anyone or anything else. All he cares about is the Law (whichever one he adheres to). This Could just as well be called an Absolute Lawful. CN: He doesn't care about good or evil either. All he cares about is himself. He does what he wants, when he wants, where he wants. If it breaks the "social norms" for behavior- ALL THE BETTER !!! TN: He doesn't care about anything... He doesn't have a code of conduct to follow. He doesn't care about the ethics of a situation. He uses the different aspects of alignment totally randomly on a whim. I don't allow players to play this alignment because one of two things ALWAYS occurs: 1.The player is constantly doing a reverse of last action to stay within his alignment, or 2.The player quickly changes to a different alignment due to fairly consistent actions in a direction. NG: This character is what you would consider the "Absolute Good". He doesn't care about the law, society, codes, or lifestyle. He does what's right and that's it. NE: As above but "Absolute Evil" Well people, let me know what you think. Give it some thought and a little bit of work. Also, anyone who's interested- I'd be more than happy to share my "alignment graph" with those who ask- send requests to me privately- there's no need to flood the list with them (address is in the sig). Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 Lawful/Chaotic: Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:59:31 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Heya all :-) All this talk about the pro's and con's of Alignments got me thinking about the method we use here. Instead of assigning an alignment, per se, each person develops a "Personal Code" file for his or her character before beginning play. This file includes information on their background, plus answers to a specific set of questions that are designed to help the player "get a handle on" how their character lives and acts in general. One copy stays with the Player and one copy goes to the DM for reference. As someone on this list mentioned, given a 'well rounded character' you can usually calculate the most reasonable alignment that applies. This is useful when certain 'alignment based' magic comes into play. When we do this, we tend describe our PC's using the AD&D alignment system, even though we play oD&D, just because it has a bit more flexibility. Actually, we even modify that, figuring, for example, that a particular PC is mainly chaotic good with significant leanings toward neutral good. As the game progresses, the Players are allowed to update the codes for their PC's to account for 'natural' changes in outlook based on their experiences to date. We don't assign penalties for alignment deviation since we don't really specify an alignment but simply expect each Player to have his or her PC act, more or less in accordance with the code that they've developed. I've mentioned this process in the past and also mentioned the fact that we have a Word 97 Document template that was created for this purpose. It's a simplified and condensed version of a "Personal Code" document I grabbed off USENET a /long/ time ago. I'll see about posting a text-only version of the template we use to the list, so those who might be interested can see what they think. Have to wait until after I get home tonight though. :-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- PS: Anyone who might be interested in the Word 97 Document Template can write to me privately and I can forward it as an attachment. - --JAMM - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:59:47 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >> An experienced DM does that, but for newer ones the alignment is a much >> simpler method than most. Also, there are far more "lesser" than major >NPC's >> in >> most games. >THat is certainly true. However, I think that for most of us, for the >'major' NPCs at least, we don't start with an alignment, but with what >"role" the person will play in the adventure and/or campaign. That role has usually determined an alignment. > Side Point: many, if not most, games get by very well without alignments >at all, and it's still possible to design adventures. Taking a couple >examples from one such game, folks can decide that, for example, Ehran the >Scribe ("Wordsmyth") is Lawful Evil, or Lawful Neutral, or whatever, based >on if I tell you what Ehran the Scribe believes, how he acts and has acted, >and what his goals are, but it hasn't really impeded his usefulness to not >have an alignment up and until now. And, with an alignment, it will not impede his usefulness goals actions or desires > Similarly, you might describe Dunkelezhan (The Big 'D') as Neutral Good or >Lawful Good or Chaotic Good, but the fact that he didn't have an >"alignment" until you assigned one to him didn't get in the way of his >being a well-drawn NPC. If he's a consistent well-drawn NPC then he's got an alignment whether you chose to label it on him or not... > Harlequin (Laughing Man) is clearly "chaotic" (good? neutral?) (at least >right now), but again putting the label on him before or after the fact >doesn't really change anything, from a game-play perspective. Then I'd say that you don't need an alignment for him. A couple of questions do come to mind at that though. 1.How does Know Alignment work with him? 2.Can he read the Tome of Ineffable Damnation without taking penalties? > IMO, even for NPCs "alignments" can prove an impediment to story telling: >Ehran the Scribe can torture the characters in one adventure, and lavish >them with generous aid in another, because he's not Iuz ("Chaotic Evil"): >how he behaves towards the characters depends on his personality, his >goals, and what relations the characters have to each at the time, not a >simplistic label. I agree that alignments on anything CAN (emphasis- not shouting) impede story-telling. So CAN hit points, so can stats, so can... well you get the picture. All of these things can also progress story-telling as much as hinder it. Moral dilemma is of great use in games, more with some than others, and those are all but nullified by disregarding the alignment system. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:10:05 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative >Heya all :-) > All this talk about the pro's and con's of Alignments got me thinking >about the method we use here. Instead of assigning an alignment, per se, >each person develops a "Personal Code" file for his or her character before >beginning play. This file includes information on their background, plus >answers to a specific set of questions that are designed to help the player >"get a handle on" how their character lives and acts in general. One copy >stays with the Player and one copy goes to the DM for reference. > As someone on this list mentioned, given a 'well rounded character' you >can usually calculate the most reasonable alignment that applies. This is >useful when certain 'alignment based' magic comes into play. When we do >this, we tend describe our PC's using the AD&D alignment system, even >though we play oD&D, just because it has a bit more flexibility. Actually, >we even modify that, figuring, for example, that a particular PC is mainly >chaotic good with significant leanings toward neutral good. > As the game progresses, the Players are allowed to update the codes for >their PC's to account for 'natural' changes in outlook based on their >experiences to date. We don't assign penalties for alignment deviation >since we don't really specify an alignment but simply expect each Player to >have his or her PC act, more or less in accordance with the code that >they've developed. > Jenni >-=> strawberryJAMM <=- >PS: Anyone who might be interested in the Word 97 Document Template can >write to me privately and I can forward it as an attachment. Hello Jenni, I would be interested in seeing this template of yours :-) but that's not why I'm making this post... "So, why are you making this post?" you ask. Well, I think that the above idea is an excellent one... but, that's not why I'm making this post either. Okay, I don't know if you saw the part of the thread where I asked some questions in detailing an alignment- but that's precisely what you've suggested in the paragraphs above. And... that isn't why I'm making this post :-) Generally, when I've had a new player in my games I had to go over the alignments with them many times to help them determine one- I allow a new player a "free" change of alignments once they've played in my games a bit too. Okay, that's not why I'm making this post either... Actually, I can't think of why I made this post at all- so I think I'll shut up now- but Jenni, this was a very good idea. Not that I'll take it over the alignment system. I'll probably incorporate it into it like I did with personality traits from Role-master I think it was... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #561 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 562 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:13:52 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > > That role has usually determined an alignment. > I disagree vehemently. An alignment may (or may not) be dictated by the role that the NPC will play, but as far as I know few people create an NPC by starting with an alignment and *then* determine what role the NPC will play. > > And, with an alignment, it will not impede his usefulness goals actions or > desires > Point is it is an unessissary apendage, like the apendix. It doesn't matter if the alignment is there or not. But it *may* cause problems if it is present, just like the apendix sometimes leads to apendicitis, and must be removed via surgery. > If he's a consistent well-drawn NPC then he's got an alignment whether you > chose > to label it on him or not... > And you may as well not bother. > > Then I'd say that you don't need an alignment for him. A couple of questions > do come to mind at that though. 1.How does Know Alignment work with him? > 2.Can he read the Tome of Ineffable Damnation without taking penalties? > As I said, these were examples from another game, one without alignments. As far as the stuff you describe: 1) I would tend to have things like "Detect Evil" and "Know Alignment" spells work "subjectively" (I.E. depending on the target's intentions towards the PCs: ill-intention, good-intention, etc, not "evil" or "Lawful Good"). This serves two purposes: A) the same NPC (or PC) may have a different "alignment" at different times (I.E. in one encounter, the NPC "detects" as "indifferent", because he doesn't know about the PCs. In the next, as "ill-intentioned", because the PCs have killed his cousin. Perhaps at another encounter he shows up as "good-intentioned", because during the 2nd encounter the PCs proved that the cousin was trying to poison the NPC in question and seduce his wife, and the dude is grateful for saving him.) > dilemma is of great use in games, more with some than others, and those > are all but nullified by disregarding the alignment system. > Again, I disagree vehemently. Shadowrun (the game who's characters I used as an example) is good at seting up moral delemas, without using anything as crude as alignments. Similarly, Traveller in it's various incarnations evolved into a game that set up a lot of moral questions, thought-provoking concepts/philosophical queries, and oportunities for heroism (and villany), all without an alignment system of any kind. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:15:56 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative > > All this talk about the pro's and con's of Alignments got me thinking > about the method we use here. Instead of assigning an alignment, per se, > each person develops a "Personal Code" file for his or her character before > beginning play. > That's the "system" that I tend to employ unsystematically, and I think it's better in a great many ways than an alignment "line item". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:32:44 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT wrote: > that Kol can use clerical and magical spells and that spells list for elf > listed in GAZ 5 have both ... No conclusion but doubt remains. But after > all, who can imagine an elf falling in love of a kobold (even a glantrian > prince one)? Well, the D&D Kol couldn't use Clerical spells. And I completely disavow any major changes from the D&D canon on this fact. As for half-elf/Kobold. Maybe. A mutated SE Could have fell in love with a Kobold. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:35:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Christian Gotschi wrote: > i.e.. your magical sword is 'Lawful evil', and the average orc is 'Chaotic > evil' Evil from a human's perspective. Lets not be racist here ;) Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of The Orcs of Thar. It adds MORE depth to humanoids in ANY XD&D game than ANY supplement before or since. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:29:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) I forgot a couple things in my response to the below: 1) Alignment-related spells: IMO, too many people use the ability to Detect Evil and/or Know Alignment as a crutch: Paladin players (among others) use these abilities and spells to determine their attitudes towards NPCs. Or at least they *can* be, and in my experience *have* been misused in such a fashion. I think that this isn't the best way to role-play, in general, which is why I prefer that the spells give "subjective" results (which, IIRC, is the D&D "Detect Evil" anyhow), rather than give "objective" alignment results simplistically: DM: "Yep, he's Chaotic Evil all right." Player: "Ok, we watch him very carefully. This could be the killer." or DM: "He's Lawful Good" Player: "Ok, he can't be our man, then. We move on." 2) regarding "aligned" items (Tomes, Swords, etc): A, Tomes: toss 'em. Or "unalign" them, like the Figher, Thief, Strength, etc. tomes are 'unaligned' B: other aligned items (Artifacts, Swords, etc.): Junk the alignment. Here is an example, IMO, of often *agredgeous* abuse of alignment as "short hand". Players often have "intelligent" swords, but the most "detail" they are often given are their special abilities and their alignments. If these swords are so smart, give them real personalities and prefferences. A "Lawful Good" Sword may not like *your* Paladin, anyhow; just because they're both "Lawful Good" is often given as a reason for them being "compatable." What rubbish. Either bring these items to life (in which case an alignment is a "take it or leave it" thing that IMO doesn't matter), or dispense with the concept of intelligent & aligned swords & artifacts. > > > > > Then I'd say that you don't need an alignment for him. A couple of > questions > > do come to mind at that though. 1.How does Know Alignment work with him? > > 2.Can he read the Tome of Ineffable Damnation without taking penalties? > > > As I said, these were examples from another game, one without alignments. > As far as the stuff you describe: > 1) I would tend to have things like "Detect Evil" and "Know Alignment" > spells work "subjectively" (I.E. depending on the target's intentions > towards the PCs: ill-intention, good-intention, etc, not "evil" or "Lawful > Good"). This serves two purposes: > A) the same NPC (or PC) may have a different "alignment" at different > times (I.E. in one encounter, the NPC "detects" as "indifferent", because > he doesn't know about the PCs. In the next, as "ill-intentioned", because > the PCs have killed his cousin. Perhaps at another encounter he shows up as > "good-intentioned", because during the 2nd encounter the PCs proved that > the cousin was trying to poison the NPC in question and seduce his wife, > and the dude is grateful for saving him.) > > > > dilemma is of great use in games, more with some than others, and those > > are all but nullified by disregarding the alignment system. > > > Again, I disagree vehemently. > Shadowrun (the game who's characters I used as an example) is good at > seting up moral delemas, without using anything as crude as alignments. > Similarly, Traveller in it's various incarnations evolved into a game that > set up a lot of moral questions, thought-provoking concepts/philosophical > queries, and oportunities for heroism (and villany), all without an > alignment system of any kind. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:36:47 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 BAHUMUTH2@aol.com wrote: > movie, etc. the two badguys talking to each other in "chaotic". I think alignment languages are more body languages. Person A lets Person B know that he's a selfish Neutral person by his actions. Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:38:24 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Daly wrote: > Maybe Bellayne on the Savage Coast. Not Notre Dame! Maybe Wells Cathedral, but NOT Notre Dame. Max IV - Silly English Kinigit! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:39:08 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >> That role has usually determined an alignment. >I disagree vehemently. An alignment may (or may not) be dictated by the >role that the NPC will play, but as far as I know few people create an NPC >by starting with an alignment and *then* determine what role the NPC will >play. When you create a role- you've already created an alignment. As soon as you decide anything about his outlook on life- you created his alignment. When you decide that he's Just/Unjust you've placed Lawful/Chaotic. When you decide that he's a cold-blooded killer or defender of the innocent you've placed good/evil. In all roles in any game-system alignment has been established by the character in that game- whether that game uses alignment or not. >> And, with an alignment, it will not impede his usefulness goals actions >>or desires >Point is it is an unessissary apendage, like the apendix. It doesn't matter >if the alignment is there or not. But it *may* cause problems if it is >present, just like the apendix sometimes leads to apendicitis, and must be >removed via surgery. It may cause problems- and it may help overcome problems. As I pointed out before- maybe to someone else- stats, ac, hp, levels may all cause problems but you aren't taking these out. But, the point that started this thread: Someone wrote that TSR should drop the alignment system- I think that it should remain in place so that those who do find it useful can easily use it. It's far easier to remove something from the game (most of the time) than to add it in. Alignments are definitely one of those things and My argument is that they should be kept in even if people opt not to use them. >> If he's a consistent well-drawn NPC then he's got an alignment whether >>you chose to label it on him or not... >And you may as well not bother. I disagree here. There are times when you didn't "plan" for a situation and the notes that you made on the character don't cover it. With an alignment you can readily say: He'd most likely act this way since he's xx alignment- without it you've got nothing. >> Then I'd say that you don't need an alignment for him. A couple of questions >do come to mind at that though. 1.How does Know Alignment work with him? >> 2.Can he read the Tome of Ineffable Damnation without taking penalties? >As I said, these were examples from another game, one without alignments. >As far as the stuff you describe: > 1) I would tend to have things like "Detect Evil" and "Know Alignment" >spells work "subjectively" (I.E. depending on the target's intentions >towards the PCs: ill-intention, good-intention, etc, not "evil" or "Lawful >Good"). This serves two purposes: > A) the same NPC (or PC) may have a different "alignment" at different >times (I.E. in one encounter, the NPC "detects" as "indifferent", because >he doesn't know about the PCs. In the next, as "ill-intentioned", because >the PCs have killed his cousin. Perhaps at another encounter he shows up as >"good-intentioned", because during the 2nd encounter the PCs proved that >the cousin was trying to poison the NPC in question and seduce his wife, >and the dude is grateful for saving him.) Personally, I like the concept of "Detect Hostile Intent" as a possible spell but, I also like the concept of alignment. Again, I understand that some (such as yourself) do not want them- but you can simply ignore them... >> dilemma is of great use in games, more with some than others, and those >> are all but nullified by disregarding the alignment system. >Again, I disagree vehemently. > Shadowrun (the game who's characters I used as an example) is good at >seting up moral delemas, without using anything as crude as alignments. > Similarly, Traveller in it's various incarnations evolved into a game that >set up a lot of moral questions, thought-provoking concepts/philosophical >queries, and oportunities for heroism (and villany), all without an >alignment system of any kind. I haven't had the pleasure of playing Shadowrun, but I'd agree that the Traveller game set up a lot of moral/thought-provoking questions/concepts/and philosophies without alignment- but not really to the characters- more to the players. This is based off of the MegaTraveller and Original Traveller games of course. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:43:41 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT wrote: > I agree : even French edition didn't have dice within Companion edition, > but (not sure of it) i think there were in Expert box (French edition > again). Hmm. I KNOW I got dice in my companion set. (Mostly because they're still in the box :) Maybe I was lucky? Max IV *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:53:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > > When you create a role- you've already created an alignment. > Only if you plan on having the NPC be a cardboard cut-out. Snidely Whiplash has an alignment, surely. But who cares? > But, the point that started this thread: Someone wrote that TSR should drop > the alignment system- I think that it should remain in place so that those > who > do find it useful can easily use it. > I *will* conceed that point. And being the person who advocated junking Alignments in general, it's a major concession (especially since I don't like to conceed *anything*). However, I *do* think that if they keep it, they should do more to make it clear that alignments aren't intended as straight-jackets. I.E. de-emphasize them in general. Hell, for most NPCs, actually, their alignment isn't important at all. You can make the guards that form an impediment to the PCs CE or LG or anything else, and it doesn't (or *shouldn't*) change their reactions to seeing them: they (the PCs) have one goal, the guards an opposed ones, and the PCs must defeat the purpose of the guards (which may or may not involve killing them all), and what alignment you give them (the guards) should have no bearing on the encounter. Just IMO, but IMO a valid one. > I disagree here. There are times when you didn't "plan" for a situation and > the > notes that you made on the character don't cover it. With an alignment you > can > readily say: He'd most likely act this way since he's xx alignment- without > it you've > got nothing. > I disagree. For such situations, I think the personality of the NPC (or PC) is more useful than a general alignment, especially since arguments over what alignments entail, behavior-wise, are rife, and have been for circa 20 years. > without alignment- but not really to the characters- more to the players. > This is based off of the MegaTraveller and Original Traveller games of > course. > I think it did *both*. I think the best games affect the player's views of things, anyhow, since (fortunately or unfortunately) the characters aren't real, anyhow*. *There is a *great* story in an ancient TD, I think circa issue 50 or so, which entails the players, their characters, and a Wish, however. . . . . . .I'll have to look it up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:34:30 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >> When you create a role- you've already created an alignment. >Only if you plan on having the NPC be a cardboard cut-out. Snidely Whiplash >has an alignment, surely. But who cares? Essentially, I'm going to have to drop this one because I can see where you're coming from and where I'm trying to go- and I can tell that you're not following me, but I'm not sure how to clarify what I mean, so... >> But, the point that started this thread: Someone wrote that TSR should >>drop the alignment system- I think that it should remain in place so that >>those who do find it useful can easily use it. >I *will* conceed that point. And being the person who advocated junking >Alignments in general, it's a major concession (especially since I don't >like to conceed *anything*). Actually, James, that's what makes a discussion so good- the fact that we can concede a point without "egg on the face" unlike a flame war, debate, or argument :-) I agree that it is a major concession- but I think it's because you know well what a person goes through when TSR does decide to junk something that you like. Mystara for instance... > However, I *do* think that if they keep it, they should do more to make it >clear that alignments aren't intended as straight-jackets. I.E. >de-emphasize them in general. Agreed fully- they should also define them better I think. > Hell, for most NPCs, actually, their alignment isn't important at all. You >can make the guards that form an impediment to the PCs CE or LG or anything >else, and it doesn't (or *shouldn't*) change their reactions to seeing >them: they (the PCs) have one goal, the guards an opposed ones, and the PCs >must defeat the purpose of the guards (which may or may not involve killing >them all), and what alignment you give them (the guards) should have no >bearing on the encounter. Just IMO, but IMO a valid one. Another, albeit slight, disagreement. When a police officer pulls you over- he's got a job to do. How rude, friendly he is- whether he writes you a ticket or harasses you, and whether he'll accept a bribe, ask for one, or bust you for that too are all measures of his alignment. (Granted- Personality too). >> I disagree here. There are times when you didn't "plan" for a situation >>and the notes that you made on the character don't cover it. With an >>alignment you can readily say: He'd most likely act this way since he's >>xx alignment- without it you've got nothing. >I disagree. For such situations, I think the personality of the NPC (or PC) >is more useful than a general alignment, especially since arguments over >what alignments entail, behavior-wise, are rife, and have been for circa 20 >years. When you're using alignment in this way it shouldn't be rife with argument since it's simply a DM call that is being made. As far as the personality of the NPC, if you've had time to fully develop one for each individual NPC that the characters encounter that's great, but I don't usually have that kind of time and I have more than most people. >> without alignment- but not really to the characters- more to the players. >> This is based off of the MegaTraveller and Original Traveller games of >> course. >I think it did *both*. I think the best games affect the player's views of >things, anyhow, since (fortunately or unfortunately) the characters aren't >real, anyhow*. I agree that the best games affect a player's view, but I didn't see much of the affect "rub off" on the characters. Maybe it's just time or the way that things went at the time- there's a lot of variables here... >*There is a *great* story in an ancient TD, I think circa issue 50 or so, >which entails the players, their characters, and a Wish, however. . . . . . >.I'll have to look it up. I'd be interested in hearing it. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:51:30 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Iliric I need some info on Iliric, the Immortal worshipped in Herath. Is there any other info on him? Where else is he followed? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:01:47 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage >I don't have the Glantri boxed set, but I like the Karameikos one; I have no >problems with it as far as 'canon' is concerned. The art is beautiful, and >the text evokes a feeling of fantasy that a lot of other products (including >the Gazetteers) don't have. I'm talking about the font that is used; >reading the Kingdom of Adventure books, I find it easier to picture >Karameikos as a true fantastic realm. > >Besides, there are no major deviations from previously accepted 'canon' >material. It just updates it to the post-WotI Mystara, and it looks great. > I myself find G:KoM much more useful than K:KoA. At least the authors weren't afraid to update the material and make changes (including, believe it or not, some good stuff). K:KoA is pretty much a copy of GAZ1, and it even misses some updates (check the description of most characters - it's copied from GAZ1, and it seems few people even aged, besides the royal family). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:49:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > > Actually, James, that's what makes a discussion so good- the fact that we > can concede a point without "egg on the face" unlike a flame war, debate, > or argument :-) > It does? I'll have to ponder that. (and, for someone who is quite like Calvin, of "Calvin and Hobbes" fame, that's also a major concession. I always liked the one that has the "What's to argue about? I'm always right and everyone else is always wrong" line. 8-)~ *was kind of tongue-in-cheek with both remarks, but they *do* contain a kernel of truth.* > > what a person goes through when TSR does decide to junk something that > you like. Mystara for instance... > *Calvin-like rant ensues* > > I'd be interested in hearing it. > Well, I doubt I'll post it all. But then I might, if the list gets slow and I have time. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:13:07 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >I need some info on Iliric, the Immortal worshipped in Herath. Is there any >other info on him? Where else is he followed? Ive had a good look - there is no information on Iliric anywhere, AFAIK. Except that hes called Negyavim, which is a very cool name! Either he is some little known aranea Immortal, or he is another Immortal in disguise. Probably the latter, as Iliric doesnt sound particularly aranean (and he has an aranean alternate ID...). As to who...? Some other major Immortal patron of magic, maybe a rival to Korotiku. Or maybe an Immortal of Entropy (greed and insensitivity?). Never really explored that angle. Although I used him IMC, it was only briefly and I didnt need a background for him. (Cool! Someone is asking Herath based questions!) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:15:22 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) > I suppose one *could* consider the Narnia books akin to "fairy tails", and >if you do then the above is not precisely accurate, since I did read (and >love) thouse books (and still have my set of 'em here somewhere). > In fact, they were probably my "gateway" to role-playing in the first >place, if anything could truely be said to have been. Narnia rulz, dude! My set (originals, no less) have a place of honour (right next to the Thrawn Trilogy). Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:31:16 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >>I need some info on Iliric, the Immortal worshipped in Herath. Is there any >>other info on him? Where else is he followed? > > >Ive had a good look - there is no information on Iliric anywhere, AFAIK. >Except that hes called Negyavim, which is a very cool name! He was also a pre-generated PC in IM2. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:25:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > Essentially, I'm going to have to drop this one because I can see where > you're coming from and where I'm trying to go- and I can tell that you're > not > following me, but I'm not sure how to clarify what I mean, so... > *Hops up onto his Soap Box.* I think that I *am* understanding you, I just disagree. If I am understanding you, your point is that everyone has an alignment, whether or not you put the label on them or not. My point is, IRL, I can only think of one person that I have known who I could put a "definative" alignment on (NE, with L tendancies). Even "in game" over time and increasingly (especially lately) I've come to find alignment labels to be more of an impediment than an enhancement. Reasonable people can even disagree over what "alignment" a NPC might have, if that person isn't given the label. Think of well-developed characters from good literature, or even pulp novels: we might *generally* agree on *many* (but possibly not even most), but the very indeterminacy is what is interesting, IMO. Conan, for example, is chaotic (IMO). Some *could* argue that at times he's NG. Or perhaps CG. Or just plain CN. Does it make a difference to put the label on him? (and he, IMO, is one of the more easily pigeon-holed characters: CG, with N tendancies). A few years ago there was a whole discourse in TD Forum and articles about whether Loki (as depicted in Norse myths, not as already pigeon-holed in "canon") should be considered CE or CN. Good arguments were made for both: who was right? Does it, and more importantly *should* it matter? Now, let's get back to our "important NPC": in actuallity, he (or she) may have several different "roles". May have a set of goals, some immediate, some long term. Some of these goals may be "nefarious" (at least the PCs will see them as such), and some may be "benevolent". The NPC may use methods that the PCs won't admire (good motives, but using "the end justifies the means". However, these are the same PCs who see nothing wrong with slaughtering humanoids without negotiation, so. . . . .) He (or she) may also use admirable methods to advance the (worthy, or even the unworthy) goals. Perhaps the NPC can think of no other way (I.E. the "Terror Squads" mentioned by someone) to achieve a justified end: in which case the PCs may have a "role" in convincing the NPC to use a more creative solution. Now, one could probably fit an alignment label over the NPC I've described (evil methods aren't justified by good goals), but the NPC may not act "negatively" at all times, or even most of the time. Putting a (artificial) label on that NPC, however, will tend to color future use of him (or her). The re-occuring "evil Wizard" NPC is an example. Whenever the dude found to be behind something, the PCs *know* something rotten is at the bottom of it. Eliminating the alignment, which is simoultaniously a tool *and* a crutch for DMs as well as players, can remove the "fog" of such things, eliminate (or aleviate) the tendancy to "stereotype" an NPC as "the bad guy". Thus, the characters may find that someone who was a foe last time they met is an ally (and a worthy one, not just an "alliance of convenience") when they next meet. Conversely, their "benefactor" during one adventure may be their "nemisis" the next. I guess, to sum up my point, alignment is a two-edged sword: both an aid, and a hinderance, to "good gaming" (broadly defined). The question is whether as such it is still more of an aid to "good gaming" than a hinderance to it. I'd tend towards the latter. I think Mystara shows this to be true: few countries, organizations, or nationalities are considered "evil". Conversely, to (sorry Solmyr) pick on my "usual suspect" one never finds a "good" Red Wizard or member of the Zhentarim, nor ever an "evil" Harper. One *may* find oneself in a temporary "alliance of convenience" with, say, Szass Tam, but the fundimental "wickedness" of all Red Wizards is confirmed. One can't say that for Glantrians, or Alphatians, or almost any other Mystaran entity you can name. I think that this is a result of the more flexable/"simple" D&D alignment axis (Law--Neutrality--Chaos) as compared with the more "complex" and IMO thus more ridged AD&D one. *Hops back down off his Soap Box*. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #562 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, August 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 563 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of opining Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran "Alignments" Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em RE: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:48:31 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >*Hops up onto his Soap Box.* > I think that I *am* understanding you, I just disagree. If I am >understanding you, your point is that everyone has an alignment, whether or >not you put the label on them or not. Exactly. I guess I was wrong on whether you were following what I was trying to say. > I guess, to sum up my point, alignment is a two-edged sword: both an aid, >and a hinderance, to "good gaming" (broadly defined). The question is >whether as such it is still more of an aid to "good gaming" than a >hinderance to it. I'd tend towards the latter. This pretty much summed up my point as well- although I tend towards the former- if alignments are played correctly. I think that most people who have a problem with alignments do not understand them enough- that obviously precludes you. Well, we've just got opposing opinions on whether they are more harmful or more helpful- since that is opinion, I think we can allow this one to rest as I don't have any more to add that won't be just opinion. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:58:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of opining > I don't have any more to add that won't be just opinion. > The only thing I have to add to *that* however is that just about everything posted (that isn't a technical description of something) to the MML is a matter of opinion. So don't let the fact that something would "be just opinion" stand in the way of your posts. I certainly don't let it stand in the way of *my* ranting screeds. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:19:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran "Alignments" > One can't say that for Glantrians, or Alphatians, or almost any other > Mystaran entity you can name. > Sorry; now I'm responding to my own posts. To continue the Mystara-related point, let's take two examples, one of an individual, and the other of a set of countries. Etienne d'Ambreville: Looked upon kindly by most (if not all) players. However, there are differing opinions over whether his "reasurches" (the ones that led to the WotI war) were "acceptable" ("good"). And who's to say someone's opinion is wrong? IMO, and just IMO, they were "bad" for two reasons: 1) disruptive to the magical nature of Mystara (I'm a very "Lawful" guy, I guess: stability is better than change. Or perhaps it isn't. Whatever.) 2) resulted in the war that killed lots of people. (the contrary argument would be that the cause of the war was opposition by other Immortals to his reasurches, thus Ixion would be "blameworthy" in the final analysis). But, irregardless of my (and most folks, I'd guess) opinion as to whether he should have continued his reasurches or not, the fact that he did so does not make him "evil". 2nd Example: Alphatia and Thyatis. In the D&D universe, broadly speaking to be "chaotic" is considered (usually) a rough equivilent of being "evil" (all the nasty dudes, especially in earlier products, were chaotic). Alphatian society, and the Alphatian empire, is chaotic (per "canon"). Thyatis is it's "lawful" counterpart (all thouse "Roman" virtues of duity, order, etc.) However, by and large, the majority of Mystarophiles consider (by now) Alphatia to be a fairy-tale utopia, or at least the "better" (more "good") of the two Empires*, while Thyatis is considered worse than Sauron's Mordor by most. That is, IF folks were to apply a "good" or "evil" label to either empire. Which isn't often done: they are considered nations, with national interests, some "positive" and some "negative" characteristics, but they aren't (usually) pigeon-holed into one alignment (a la Thay, or Shadowdale, Zhentil Keep, or Cormyr). Does this make the Mystaran system "better"? Well, it does make it different. And IMO more "realistic" (with the usual caviats regarding the employment of the word "realistic" in a game with Wishes and Dragons). *Much of this Alphatiaphilioism is probably a result of the VotPA, but it's origin is not as significance as its existance, since even before the VotPA, based solely on DotE, reasonable people could decide that they admired Alphatia more than Thyatis, or at least loathed it less, and their aesthetic preference for one or the other would have been something that reasonable people could disagree on. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:10:08 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative At 11:59 AM 8/11/98 -0700, I wrote: > I'll see about posting a text-only version of the template we use to the >list, so those who might be interested can see what they think.[...] > >PS: Anyone who might be interested in the Word 97 Document Template can >write to me privately and I can forward it as an attachment. >--JAMM > I've included the Text-Only version of my Personal Code for the perusal of the MML at the bottom of this message. Also, I found that I have a Zip file which contains four files: The original LONG text Personal Code file I got of the net way back when, the Word 97 document template, a Word 6 for Windows document version based on the template, a Word 2 for Windows version and this text only version. I'll be sending that out to anyone who has or does express interest in receiving the more nicely formatted version. :-) Also, if anyone might be interested, I could also share examples of how this Personal Code has been used for some of my own PC's and for some of the PC's in the game I DM. This should be an offline thing though -- I'm not about to reformat all these Word 97 documents so it would have to be through attachments. Jenni - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- FRP Personal Code Player Name: {type name here} Description Character Name: Commonly Known As: Race, Age, Sex: General Physical Appearance: 1 Summary: 1.1 Please characterise this PC in one or two sentences: 2 Background/History 2.1 Birthplace 2.2 Please give a paragraph or two with a description of character's childhood and youth up to and including the time when he/she first started adventuring. This information should include details of their family, emotional upbringing, their economic and social status, any significant events of their earlier years. Please give the names (and ages) of any important individuals in the character’s life, such as relatives, teachers, love interests, etc. 2.3 How does this character deal with his/her history?: (i.e., does he/she Talk about it? Exaggerate it? Ignore it? Etc.) 3 Ethics and Morals 3.1 Under what circumstances would this character lie to his/her comrades?: 3.2 Under what circumstances would this character lie to other people?: 3.3 Under what circumstances would this character desert his/her associates?: 3.4 Under what circumstances would this character put his/her own welfare ahead of that of the group?: 3.5 Under what circumstances would this character kill?: 3.6 Under what circumstances would this character commit torture?: 3.7 If an opponent in battle surrendered and asked for mercy, would this character grant it? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 3.8 Under what circumstances would this character help a stranger who was requesting his/her protection?: 3.9 Would this character share his/her possessions/wealth with a friend who needed it? Yes or No. Give details if necessary: 3.10 Would this character share his/her possessions/wealth with a stranger who needed it? Yes or No. Give details if necessary: 3.11 Does this character regularly donate money to any charities? Yes or No. Please describe and/or name if necessary: 3.12 Would this character obey a law even if he/she thought it was wrong? Yes or No. If so, under what circumstances? if not, why not?: 3.13 When would this character feel that the ends justify the means? 4 Leadership and Teamwork 4.1 Does this character feel comfortable being in charge? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 4.2 Does this character prefer to be in charge? Yes or No. If no, are there any circumstances in which this character would assume leadership?: 4.3 Does this character feel comfortable when someone else is in charge? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 4.4 Does this character prefer to have someone else be in charge? Yes or No. If no, are there any circumstances in which this character would willingly hand over leadership?: 4.5 Describe how this character tries to get his/her way: (i.e., by bullying others into what he/she wants, by discussing the situation, through subtle manipulation, etc.) 5 Desires and Fears 5.1 Does this character desire wealth? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 5.2 Does this character desire magical items? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 5.3 Does this character desire fame? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 5.4 Does this character desire power? Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: 5.5 Is there any amount of wealth for which this character would risk his/her own life? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.6 Is there any magic spell or magic item for which this character would risk his/her own life? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.7 Is there any non-monetary, non-magical item, information or other for which this character would risk his/her own life? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.8 Of the previous three questions, would any of these cause this character to risk the lives of his/her companions, without their knowledge and consent? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.9 Does this character have other, important personal desires or needs, such as gaining love, obtaining true friendship, finding a lost relative, etc.? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.10 Does this character have any unusual or overpowering fears or concerns? Yes or No. If so, describe: 5.11 Describe any strong feelings that this character has towards the members of any specific races, species or groups: - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:18:39 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative is there a way to make a character from the saga rules into real ad&d Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > At 11:59 AM 8/11/98 -0700, I wrote: > > I'll see about posting a text-only version of the template we use to the > >list, so those who might be interested can see what they think.[...] > > > >PS: Anyone who might be interested in the Word 97 Document Template can > >write to me privately and I can forward it as an attachment. > >--JAMM > > > > I've included the Text-Only version of my Personal Code for the perusal > of the MML at the bottom of this message. > > Also, I found that I have a Zip file which contains four files: The > original LONG text Personal Code file I got of the net way back when, the > Word 97 document template, a Word 6 for Windows document version based on > the template, a Word 2 for Windows version and this text only version. > I'll be sending that out to anyone who has or does express interest in > receiving the more nicely formatted version. :-) > > Also, if anyone might be interested, I could also share examples of how > this Personal Code has been used for some of my own PC's and for some of > the PC's in the game I DM. This should be an offline thing though -- I'm > not about to reformat all these Word 97 documents so it would have to be > through attachments. > > Jenni > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > FRP Personal Code > Player Name: {type name here} > Description > Character Name: > > Commonly Known As: > > Race, Age, Sex: > > General Physical Appearance: > > 1 Summary: > 1.1 Please characterise this PC in one or two sentences: > > 2 Background/History > 2.1 Birthplace > > 2.2 Please give a paragraph or two with a description of character's > childhood and youth up to and including the time when he/she first started > adventuring. This information should include details of their family, > emotional upbringing, their economic and social status, any significant > events of their earlier years. Please give the names (and ages) of any > important individuals in the character’s life, such as relatives, teachers, > love interests, etc. > > 2.3 How does this character deal with his/her history?: > (i.e., does he/she Talk about it? Exaggerate it? Ignore it? Etc.) > > 3 Ethics and Morals > 3.1 Under what circumstances would this character lie to his/her comrades?: > > 3.2 Under what circumstances would this character lie to other people?: > > 3.3 Under what circumstances would this character desert his/her associates?: > > 3.4 Under what circumstances would this character put his/her own welfare > ahead of that of > the group?: > > 3.5 Under what circumstances would this character kill?: > > 3.6 Under what circumstances would this character commit torture?: > > 3.7 If an opponent in battle surrendered and asked for mercy, would this > character grant it? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 3.8 Under what circumstances would this character help a stranger who was > requesting his/her protection?: > > 3.9 Would this character share his/her possessions/wealth with a friend who > needed it? > Yes or No. Give details if necessary: > > 3.10 Would this character share his/her possessions/wealth with a stranger > who needed it? > Yes or No. Give details if necessary: > > 3.11 Does this character regularly donate money to any charities? > Yes or No. Please describe and/or name if necessary: > > 3.12 Would this character obey a law even if he/she thought it was wrong? > Yes or No. If so, under what circumstances? if not, why not?: > > 3.13 When would this character feel that the ends justify the means? > > 4 Leadership and Teamwork > 4.1 Does this character feel comfortable being in charge? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 4.2 Does this character prefer to be in charge? > Yes or No. If no, are there any circumstances in which this character > would assume leadership?: > > 4.3 Does this character feel comfortable when someone else is in charge? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 4.4 Does this character prefer to have someone else be in charge? > Yes or No. If no, are there any circumstances in which this character > would willingly hand over leadership?: > > 4.5 Describe how this character tries to get his/her way: > (i.e., by bullying others into what he/she wants, by discussing the > situation, through subtle manipulation, etc.) > > 5 Desires and Fears > 5.1 Does this character desire wealth? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 5.2 Does this character desire magical items? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 5.3 Does this character desire fame? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 5.4 Does this character desire power? > Yes or No. If so, why? If not, why not?: > > 5.5 Is there any amount of wealth for which this character would risk > his/her own life? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.6 Is there any magic spell or magic item for which this character would > risk his/her own life? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.7 Is there any non-monetary, non-magical item, information or other for > which this character would risk his/her own life? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.8 Of the previous three questions, would any of these cause this > character to risk the lives of his/her companions, without their knowledge > and consent? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.9 Does this character have other, important personal desires or needs, > such as gaining love, obtaining true friendship, finding a lost relative, > etc.? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.10 Does this character have any unusual or overpowering fears or concerns? > Yes or No. If so, describe: > > 5.11 Describe any strong feelings that this character has towards the > members of any specific races, species or groups: > > -- > Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs > strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ > <------------------------------------------------------------------> > God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. > Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" > And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:34:09 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Hello! I'd just like to remind everyone of the personal profiling system in the Norther reaches gazzetteer. You know, the one in which one gives stats to the characters various psycological qualities (greed, honesty, violence...). Its a quite good substitute or add-on to the aligment, as it divides the aligment into different parts. This way one can has a character that is basicly, say good, but has some nasty sides too, like beeing slightlu greedy... Ofcource, if You use the system, do remember to disbelieve using dice in the process of deciding the attributes. Let the player put whicever number they want in each. Furthermore i allow players to chance the numbers during the game, due to character 'advancement'. usually little by little. Also, there once was a cursed something, that made the subject became more violent... IMHO aligment is a method of describing the character in short terms, and should be used only for that, changed if neccessary should the character change with time (either by the player or the GM or together). The aligment should not define the acts of the character, but the acts should define his aligment. Pasi // Thanks Jenni, for the profiler... - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:19:58 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative >Hello! > >I'd just like to remind everyone of the personal profiling system in the >Norther reaches gazzetteer. You know, the one in which one gives stats to >the characters various psycological qualities (greed, honesty, >violence...). Its a quite good substitute or add-on to the aligment, as it >divides the aligment into different parts. This way one can has a >character that is basicly, say good, but has some nasty sides too, like >beeing slightlu greedy... Sounds like the Top Secret psychological profile... For those who dont know, you have different "mental attributes" and a rating for each one... you had Loyalty Passion Piety Cruelty Sanity (And i think one other one, which i cant remember :) Anyway, each attribute was rated at either No, Low, Some, High or Total, and when u had all five (six?) together you had a roughly described personality... This Northern Reaches thing sounds similar (well, they are both products of TSR, so...) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:21:54 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >> Not on Krynn (Kingpriest of Istar). >> > I stoped reading the Krynn books, and can't remember: did this slag >continue to recieve spells from Paladine, or not? Hmm. I think so, right up until the end. Paladine gave him other warnings instead - but he didnt take heed. I know hes listed as Lawful Good in the Krynn books, tho... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:12:03 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do something? (That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) > -----Original Message----- > From: Jesse LaBranche [SMTP:vanquer@softhome.net] > Not really. The Inquistion was definitely one of the darker events in > human history although it was in the name of "God". Many things are > done in the name of god or country- but evil is evil. > When he's doing an *evil* action (like wholesale slaughter, treachery, > assassination) to stop a greater evil from occurring (mass destruction > of home, friends, etc.) he's not doing a good thing either way- he's > choosing the better of two evils. > Now, if he takes great pleasure in the evils that he's committing- then > he's not a good character but an evil one... > > Jesse. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:31:16 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Rob wrote: > >I'd just like to remind everyone of the personal profiling system in the > >Norther reaches gazzetteer. > Sounds like the Top Secret psychological profile... For those who dont > know, you have different "mental attributes" and a rating for each one... > Anyway, each attribute was rated at either No, Low, Some, High or Total, and > when u had all five (six?) together you had a roughly described > personality... > This Northern Reaches thing sounds similar (well, they are both products of > TSR, so...) Yes they are similar. This just have well over ten attributes, whereas TS has only six (strange, I dont remember which the sixth is either, maybe greedy?, I should remember, we just played it on monday). Also TS only has 5 steps in each, where the DD system has any numbers from 0-20 (usually 3-18 though) Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:28:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em James said: >> I stoped reading the Krynn books, and can't remember: did this slag >>continue to recieve spells from Paladine, or not? And Rob replied: >Hmm. I think so, right up until the end. Paladine gave him other warnings >instead - but he didnt take heed. I know hes listed as Lawful Good in the >Krynn books, tho... I seem to remember that they didn't get spells, there were a few who did, but they all vanished a few days before the Cataclysm. And (hopefully) final thoughts on the use of Alignments. One of the problems I have with Alignments is that a lot of matrerial comes out with the persons alignment being the most important thing about them. Someone writes an adventure about Glantri. Sees Jaggars LE and all of a sudden he's an archfiend. Actually this never happened, probably wouldn't (well, wont because Mystara is not being published!), but it happens in other worlds. Notably some peoples views of Krynnish folks. Actually, this could just as well happen with someone reading a short description of personality (Hmm, but not as much!), again if people understand and use the alignment system then it works. Trouble is that most folks have such different ideas about it (as can be seen here...) Hmmm, but then we have different ideas about what Thyatis is like so maybe that's a null point as well. (Coherency? Never!) Oh, and a question, what other games use alignments (or something like that)? Do any of the newer games use them? (I know the Storyteller ones don't). If AD&D is the only game left using alignments should it not keep them to remain unique? I dunno... gordon, who thinks Harlequin could also be viewed as Evil...I still think he was responsible for the Big D's short presidency... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:28:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em (I know I said I'd shut up about this, but I do find it interesting...) Galwylin wrote: >Gordon McCormick wrote: >> >> Fair doos. Another thing that Jesse mentioned was that of the good >> character faced with a choice of only evil things. He goes for the >> lesser of the evils. (*exactly* what happened in an adventure of >> ours, since titled the lesser evil, where Alonzo sent two hundred >> refugees to their deaths. It was the "gooder" thing to do). > >Can't say I'd ever use a situation where the best you could do means two >hundred people had to die. I'm just nasty that way I guess...I like to make my players to make hard choices. Being good is never easy... >Now, if their deaths involved something like >leading a large group to safety, I suppose that is the best you can do. >You must give tough choices to make though 'Alonzo sent' makes me >wonder. Essentially, this was at the start of the War with Alphatia (IMC, the Alphatians sent over a small scouting force which pretty much mulched the Glantrian Army), and 200 refugees from Sind arrived in Sablestone asking for sanctuary. One of the PC's gave them sanctuary, then the Hulean Army shows up demanding the Kings Property back, as well as the leader of the "terrorists" (They sure didn't look like terrorists, but they were resisting Hulean/Sindhi rule...) The Huleans effectively said "Give us the refugees or we'll come in looking for them". It was kind of obvious that the Huleans were looking for signs of weakness for their next offensive (They were doing the same in Darokin as well...guess where they're gonna go :) ) Glantri couldn't resist Hule at that time so they aquiesed to save the lives of hundreds more Glantrians. Maybe that is evil, but as a Noble, Army Officer, and Judge the PC's were kind of honourbound to protect Glantri. They did so. >> On that note, I think I'll shut up about alignments, cos I've talked >> to much already (see what happends when I can't get onto the MMB! :) >> Not that I talk a lot there, there's just so much to read!) > >I've been having problems today also. I hate to skip a day since that >means 200 posts to read tomorrow :) Yup,yup, and some of them are getting *long*. gordon, waiting for the Toys to arrive on the MML... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:30:48 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >How many here remember that Kol is realy a shadowelf? I know I`ve been away for about 2 weeks but didn`t this just die down after I started it up last time? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #563 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, August 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 564 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Bring me the head of Bargle the infamous (Was- Mystaran State Finances in the ) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Radiance Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame [MYSTARA] - High or Low Fantasy was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:46:31 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Bring me the head of Bargle the infamous (Was- Mystaran State Finances in the ) >Track down Bargle the Infamous, and inform him that he owes the Karameikan >Crown 9999.95gp in taxes. Heres an official proclamation - if he doesnt pay >up book him for tax evasion and return him to Mirros... > So you get the standard 500,000gp for bringing him in plus 10% of his owed taxes you got out of him on the way home. Just how big is your tax bill now? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:58:50 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) nd Americans think the English are weird??? :) > Well `we` don`t speak or write `their` language correctly do we? Anyway enough sillyness from me now I`m back. It`s amazing just how big a raise walking out at the right moment brings. Serious question about HW is there a comprehensive list of allowed, unknown or forbidden spells anywhere? I`m looking for something that includes all the Gaz etc and/or AD&D PHB&TOM. If not is anyone interested in such a list? Actually two lists both pre/post WotI. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:17:21 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >Hmm. IIRC, IMC the carrion crawler nailed all the warriors in the round >when it ambushes the party (it has got eight attacks). The remaining >softbodies (thieves and mages) just couldnt put enough firepower into it to >kill it. > >Later, with new fighters, and armed with foreknowledge, it was shot to bits. > Almost the same last time I ran it except they shot at where it had come from the first time and it came at them from elsewhere and it got them again. I nearly wet myself laughing when someone complained that it shouldn`t move even to feast on the earlier party. Novice player who`d only computer roleplayed back in the good/bad old days. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:14:24 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em At 18.27 11/08/98 +0000, Gordon McCormick wrote: > >When a Paladin rides into an Orc camp and slaughters everyone in it, >is he being good? Even the women and children? (If he doesn't they're >going to try and kill him....) > I don't know, but I don't think slaughtering everyone is something a Paladin should do. IMO he should kill (or better "disable" him) the chief and try to force the others into surrender. And if they're going to try and kill him he should find a way to stop them without actually killing them: stun, paralyze, pietrify... Hey, nobody said being a Paladin was an easy task :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:25:39 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments At 11.47 11/08/98 -0700, Jesse LaBranche wrote: >CN: He doesn't care about good or evil either. All he cares about is >himself. He does what he wants, when he wants, where he wants. If it breaks >the "social norms" for behavior- ALL THE BETTER !!! I've played a CN gnome fighter for a couple of years. I played him as a somewhat fool person, he usually behaved like a normal gnome but he often had some bursts of madness doing whatever he liked at the moment (including siding with monsters during combat, attacking enemies with eggs instead of his axe...). It was real fun to play, especially when he quarreled with the human Paladin. Anyway he rarely broke the law, because he knew that it would have been bad for him and since he cared only about himself... >TN: He doesn't care about anything... He doesn't have a code of conduct to >follow. He doesn't care about the ethics of a situation. He uses the >different aspects of alignment totally randomly on a whim. We had a TN Druid in the above group. I hated hi, always busy "balancing the forces af good and evil in the world": i.e. preventing the rest of the group to do its work. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:30:41 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Tale of Three Dice sets At 16.48 11/08/98 +0200, DM wrote: >Companion set with dices? I thought only Basic set had dices.. I got mines >with the Basic set only! I think it's a matter of the Italian edition... mmmh... bad translation and fewer dice... > >Anyway, my colors were: >d4 - white >d6 - black >d8 - red >d10 - yellow >d12 - violet >d20 - green Same here, except d4 was yellow, d10 green and d20 white. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:08:30 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em At 10.31 11/08/98 -0700, Jesse LaBranche wrote: > This is a sign of a lawful character. Lawfuls don't follow all laws, >only those >that they feel apply to them. In the case of following the laws of his >country- he >feels bound by them, and those of other countries that he feels are >appropriate >(I'd suggest, based off of your statement that the ones that he follows in >other >countries are very similar to his own, or not covered at all by his own >country's >laws). I agree with this, though it could cause some problems because you could have 2 lawful PC which follow 2 completely different set of laws. For example, let's imagine there's a country with "evil" laws. A character killing an AE is a lawful action for SE, and killing a SE a lawful action for AE... this is sort of funny :-) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:27:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >nd Americans think the English are weird??? :) >> >Well `we` don`t speak or write `their` language correctly do we? Sometimes we have to wont work :) > Anyway >enough sillyness from me now I`m back. It`s amazing just how big a raise >walking out at the right moment brings. Serious question about HW is >there a comprehensive list of allowed, unknown or forbidden spells >anywhere? I`m looking for something that includes all the Gaz etc and/or >AD&D PHB&TOM. If not is anyone interested in such a list? Actually two >lists both pre/post WotI. I seem to vaguely recall the change was documented in PWA's, could someone remind me what spells were reallowed? It wouldn't be instantaneous travel I rekon... I personally like to limit spells (I like magic to be mysterious rather than ubiquitous), especially the "Get out of Role-Playing Free" spells of Know Alignment (if you use alignment), ESP etc... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:38:21 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >Just hearsay it's ok. Like Morphail is a vampire, Malachie a werewolf, >Etienne an Immortal, Synn a dragon, Jaggar a famous dragon-hunter... it >looks as if each Glantrian Prince is rumored to be something else... > Sort of like what was said of everyone on Babylon5? `None of us exatly what we appear to be` or some such was the quote. Scifi channel have just started showing first three series nightly in UK It`s cool to spot all the significant hints,both real and imagined, that abound. Last night was `Mr. Bester` first showing up. Back on topic last time I read my mail someone, Jenni?,mentioned that dragon article about varing standard spell magic. Personally I prefer this to the plethora of spells now available out there. A standard spell with just a couple of tweaks won`t alter playbalance and can easily give the image of the strange. Take `magic missile` In Artic climes call it `ice shards` and have it do slightly more damage if temp below 0f and have save for 1/2 if above 90f, or in arid area call it `sand scour` again more damage in home terain but if it gets damp or humid it`s not as effective. As a GM it`s much easier because you know most of the basic spells by heart, but some of those newer spells just don`t come to memory as easily because we haven`t used them on PCs to great effect. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:51:29 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:[MYSTARA] Radiance Also on a off >subject I'm having alittle dificultly determineing lift capacity with magic >spells (especially Float in air) since most say they lift 4000 cn or the >objects weight am I missing something? > Well it could be the fact that in order to lift any reasonable cargo/crew you need to either enhance the basic lift spell or add a second. IIrc each enhancement of a spell, actually another casing of same spell, increases it`s capability by 20%. So if you have a 100 ton ship with the maximum 5 enhancements it could lift itself plus 100 tons of crew/cargo etc. Then again I might have entirely the wrong end of the stick, (YEUCK! Squidgy brown again), and the other answers gave you what you needed. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:53:06 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >my mail someone, Jenni?,mentioned that dragon article about varing >standard spell magic. Personally I prefer this to the plethora of spells >now available out there. A standard spell with just a couple of tweaks >won`t alter playbalance and can easily give the image of the strange. > Hmm. Ive read stuff like cold burning hands, shards of ice instead of magic missiles, jets of acid etc. Even this changes balance - its easier to defend yourself from fire than acid, for example. Or lightning. Id go for a lightning variant of burning hands almost every time... (except when fighting undead :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:56:32 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >I don't have G:KoM but AFAIK Kol doesn't know of being a mutated shadow >elf. He consider himself a kobold, and no one knows he's a shadow elf >except the DM. > > >But, how can he find out? > IIrc Gaz 10 has something about wicca and shaman finding out when they go on their visionquests for knowledge. Side note (I`ve got to get the ability to bring all my xD&D stuff into work written into my next contract! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:57:02 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Oh, and a question, what other games use alignments (or something like that)? Do any of the newer games use them? (I know the Storyteller ones don't). If AD&D is the only game left using alignments should it not keep them to remain unique? I dunno... Theres almost always an equivalent - a way of describing your character in a game mechanical kind of way. The best ay is probably the Nature/Demeanor White Wolf system. Quick, easy, more descriptive than AD+D alignment. BUT - AD+D is a fantasy Tolkienesque game. Its ultimately a battle of Good vs Evil. The alignment system reflects that - i cant see a problem with that. Its the genre. Anyone who really has a serious gripe about alignment probably prefers low fantasy, where things are less clear cut. (I personally generally prefer low fantasy, so no discrimination :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:59:01 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) - ----- I personally like to limit spells (I like magic to be mysterious rather than ubiquitous), especially the "Get out of Role-Playing Free" spells of Know Alignment (if you use alignment), ESP etc... Nooo... Bin spells like that a mage becomes nothing more than a fantasy version of a 155mm howitzer. Stuff like charm person and ESP is what separates a mage from a killing machine. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:00:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:38:21 -0700 (PDT) >From: paul dooley >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM >Reply-to: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > >>Just hearsay it's ok. Like Morphail is a vampire, Malachie a werewolf, >>Etienne an Immortal, Synn a dragon, Jaggar a famous dragon-hunter... it >>looks as if each Glantrian Prince is rumored to be something else... >> >Sort of like what was said of everyone on Babylon5? `None of us exatly >what we appear to be` or some such was the quote. Scifi channel have >just started showing first three series nightly in UK It`s cool to spot >all the significant hints,both real and imagined, that abound. Last >night was `Mr. Bester` first showing up. Back on topic I hate bringing up Babylon 5 for use in examples on this list, just because there's no spoiler policy and americans might tell me things about future eps I don't wanna know....dang this plethora of information that is the net :) >last time I read >my mail someone, Jenni?,mentioned that dragon article about varing >standard spell magic. Personally I prefer this to the plethora of spells >now available out there. A standard spell with just a couple of tweaks >won`t alter playbalance and can easily give the image of the strange. >Take `magic missile` In Artic climes call it `ice shards` and have it do >slightly more damage if temp below 0f and have save for 1/2 if above >90f, or in arid area call it `sand scour` again more damage in home >terain but if it gets damp or humid it`s not as effective. As a GM it`s >much easier because you know most of the basic spells by heart, but some >of those newer spells just don`t come to memory as easily because we >haven`t used them on PCs to great effect. I really like the Voodoo Magic Missle. The Mage just brings out a doll and stabs it, d6+1 damage to the guy he was looking at. He stabs it 3 times at 6th level and so on....(no point stabbing it again at low level, he'd just look silly :) ) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:05:30 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A canon barrage >(On the other hand, the adventures in either of them...sigh...) > ` It`s an Alarm spell` Mind you some of the NPC stuff in Mark of Amber, Night of the Vampire etc were well done and the sound effects are great on a Discman etc. for the scouting thief. I had one who missed all his find/remove trap rolls. It was glorious to watch as he heard his hitpoints dissappear. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:13:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Notre Dame >Disney! It was them that wrote it!! :) :) ^^^^^^ INFRINGEMENT OF COPYRITE.Duh Management wuz told. Please remain where you are, Termination squadron has been dispatched to your location. Reccomend 1/4 mile scorched Earth to ensure no further occurence of crime! This is not a drill. REPEAT This is not a drill! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:14:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - High or Low Fantasy was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Rob stated: >Anyone who really has a serious gripe about alignment probably prefers low >fantasy, where things are less clear cut. (I personally generally prefer >low fantasy, so no discrimination :) I was about to jump in with a me too about prefering low fantasy...then realised that I was DMing a campaign with thousands of wizards fighting each other, hundreds of Skyships fighting hundreds of Dragons, Continents sinking because of a magic item (well, that's all the radiance is really :) )........hmmm, maybe I *do* prefer high fantasy! Actually I think I've just got my definitions wrong...high fantasy is Good vs Evil on an epic scale yes? (I just like the epic scale myself :) ) Maybe that's why Mystara is so wierd, there's high fantasy in places like Alphatia, low fantasy in, er, Karameikos? gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:30:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >I personally like to limit spells (I like magic to be mysterious >rather than ubiquitous), especially the "Get out of Role-Playing >Free" spells of Know Alignment (if you use alignment), ESP etc... > > >Nooo... > >Bin spells like that a mage becomes nothing more than a fantasy version of a >155mm howitzer. Stuff like charm person and ESP is what separates a mage >from a killing machine. Charm is cool, but I do a lot of "Mystery" type adventures, the first load of adventures in my Glantri Campaign were all Private Investigator type things. To have ESP would make it silly easy to discover who did it! So I just quietly removed that spell from Mystara. I allow Dream Mages to do weird mind things but keep them in the background (imagine PsiCops). Other Knowledge Gathering spells are cool, but as long as they're suitably cryptic to make the players still work, while still being useful information! Phew... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:31:56 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? >> Hahaha! No kidding! Maybe the character is going through emotional >turmoil >>due to his change in philosophy. > > >Actually - thats what is says :) (In 2nd ed, anyway :) > Hold on isn`t the pattern actually loss of faith in old philosophy, then emotional turmoil and THEN a stabalisation once the new philosophy is embraced? To reflect reality better perhaps rather than lose levels xp needed for next two levels is doubled and during this transitional time the benefits gained for a sound philosophical belief are negated. (It`s a slow day and I`m relly bored but the interference pattern between PC an Tinnitus WNG precludes any long discourses ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:40:16 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) This talk about penalising xp for acting out of character doesn`t hold water. RW analogy is when this happens people`s reactions to that person change but with two major variables how out of character it was and how widely publicised. This is a ROLEPLAYING challenge to be overcome, not an excuse to go wipe out some more defenceless, relatively, humanoids. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:50:16 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OFF-TOPIC: child-approved editing (was Re: Notre Dame) >{This is Jenni, breaking into 'off-topic' mode because she just couldn't >resist...} > Me too! `Braveheart`, Mel Gibson etc. cool movie (mate of mine`s in it. He`s one of those who wave their arse at camera(His best side)) within a generation that will be the official history, never mind the fact that longshanks outlived wallace by ten years. Goodfacts rather than Truefacts. BTW for a real look at how to do this get any British WW2 newsreel about convoy losses. Allies are missing, Axis will NEVER return home again. If Hitler had our propaganda machine it`d have been a cakewalk. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 06:07:57 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >the use of Terrorists in Alphatia. One mans terrorist is currently the leader of South Africa >These are very tricky situations, whenever things come down to kill >or be killed, good and evil become even more subjective... > Us and Them is what it usually boils down to! See how easy Fascism gains hold unless it is ruthlessly destroyed at every opportunity. Getting back to the main thread though as players we ALL have bad days when we make a mistake or are just in a different mindset to that usually used for this particular character so the mask slips. This is the time that any GOOD GM asks the player are they sure that`s what they want to do. No mortal can be perfect by definition so why fall into the trap of imposing unreasonable penalties for a very human failing. Yes I know we`ve all got those stories about when so&so really messed up, but howcome when we tell the one about when we messed up it`s almost always a mistake, or bad call etc. Alignment may be good for novices but its actually stillcalled roleplaying isn`t it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:04:47 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >I really like the Voodoo Magic Missle. The Mage just brings out a >doll and stabs it, d6+1 damage to the guy he was looking at. > >He stabs it 3 times at 6th level and so on....(no point stabbing it >again at low level, he'd just look silly :) ) > >gordon Thanks Gordon! This I like. It`s all atmosphere and staging for the `mages friend` rather than an entirely new magic for you to place. It`s EXACTLY what I`m talking about. In fact I`m gonna use it when I next run <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:48:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do something? > (That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) > That's question #9: 9. Your diety tells you to walk on hot coals. You promplty: a. practice shouting "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!" b. get a new diety. c. invite your friends to a cook out. d. attack him. ("U 2 Kan Ern BIG BUX!" by Lawrence R. Raimonda, TD #128) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:48:53 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >Either he is some little known aranea Immortal, or he is another Immortal in >disguise. Probably the latter, as Iliric doesnt sound particularly aranean >(and he has an aranean alternate ID...). > Well, I suppose he could be also known and worshipped by some Alphatians (especially the greedy and insensitive ones :) As to his sphere, it shouldn't automatically be Entropy. Many Immortals of other spheres are not nice guys :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:35:55 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em No, the Kingpriest, at least the last one in the long line of Kingpriests, did not retain his spells. He began to dabble in sorcery, however. Was he evil? He was mad, and perhaps did not recognize the difference between good and evil. Likely, any who opposed him he considered evil. Otherwise, he believed he was acting on behalf of the powers of good. In the end, there is a debate that the Kingpriest tried to elevate himself to godhood, and that was the cause of his ultimate downfall. Harold "I'm in Wisconsin and finally back on line" Johnson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #564 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, August 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 565 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re(2): [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:04 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Jesse, While I don't totally disagree with you on your read on alignment; I don't entirely agree with it either. I guess my point of contention is "true neutral". LAWFULs believe in the greater good where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the individual. CHAOTICs believe in the personal good, where the needs of the individual should rarely be subborned by the needs of the many. This is not necessarily selfishness, it is individuality. NEUTRALs believe that the needs of the situation and personal survival should outweigh social moraes. This is true selfishness, rationalizing that the goal justifies whatever means are necessary to reach the goal. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:38:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric > > As to his sphere, it shouldn't automatically be Entropy. Many Immortals of > other spheres are not nice guys :) > Energy, but it's too common. Thought, perhaps, which would be appropriate IMO for the Areana, and Herath. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:41:09 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > Was he evil? He was mad, and perhaps did not recognize the difference > between good and evil. > A always (for game purposes) consider socio- and psychopaths to be evil. > In the end, there is a debate that the Kingpriest tried to elevate himself > to godhood, and that was the cause of his ultimate downfall. > Ahhh, that's right: they (the Gods) didn't crater Krynn because the Kingpriest (and others) were misbehaving, but out of spite. 8-)~ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:54:36 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >is there a way to make a character from the saga rules into real ad&d > >Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > Jenni, Converting Saga characters to AD&D rules should just require the reverse of the process for converting AD&D to SAGA according to the designer. Harold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:46:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments > "true neutral". > > LAWFULs believe in the greater good where the needs of the one outweigh > the needs of the individual. > Here I'm sure you meant to write ". . . .the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual." Pedantikos. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:00:54 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: > >> "true neutral". >> >> LAWFULs believe in the greater good where the needs of the one outweigh >> the needs of the individual. >> >Here I'm sure you meant to write ". . . .the needs of the many outweigh >the >needs of the individual." > > Pedantikos. Yep! My fingers just fly across this keyboard. In fact I did mean to say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few! Sorry! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:04:35 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Harold Johnson wrote: > > NEUTRALs believe that the needs of the situation and personal survival > should outweigh social moraes. This is true selfishness, rationalizing > that the goal justifies whatever means are necessary to reach the goal. Can't say that I've ever seen neutrality portrayed this way but from your description of lawful and chaotic, it sounds good to me. One question concerning druids, in this light of selfishness, which are they being selfish for? Themselves or nature? I guess I'm wondering do they see nature has having the highest priority or do they see their personal survival the best chance for nature to survive? I could see it going either way but I'm not sure how the neutral alignment plays out versus a neutral wizard. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:16:55 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Good point. I would think that Druids tend to replace their personal goals with the goals of Nature. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:16:43 EDT From: DrklngMuse@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol In a message dated 8/12/98 5:44:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes: > Personally I prefer this to the plethora of spells > now available out there. A standard spell with just a couple of tweaks > won`t alter playbalance and can easily give the image of the strange Hi everyone! I just wanted to share an experience with you. We were fighting against an evil priest and his minions, when the priest summoned a blue/black orb of crackling energy. The orb struck our wizard who screamed as though he was on fire. His spell disrupted, he spent the rest of the round with his arms around himself mumbling, " My soul, my soul, it attacked my soul." The orb floated back to its master. Round 2 it shot out again barely missing, once again returning to the priests side after the attack. Well, to make a long battle short: None of the players wanted to be hit by the orb. The thief decided he didn't want to get near the priest because the orb might attack him, so he hide behind everyone else. The fighters shot arrows at it and when that didn't work they attacked it with magic arrows and missles. The wizard cast spells at it. The priest was dumbfounded why his protection from evil did not seems to stop it. While all this was happening the priest continued praying to dark gods offering the souls of the infidels and his low level minions did fairly well against the distracted adventures as they were more concerned about the orb. The spell was just a second level spiritual hammer spell with a special effect and a holy symbol substituted for the material component. It really made the encounter unique and the group still talks about it. " Remember that priest who cast the spell GLOBE OF THE UNLIFE?" Ryan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:16:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Ah, OK, this isn't my response but from one of my players.... A while ago James replied to a post of mine about Alonzo the elf sending Glantrian terrorists to Alphatia: >Your above examples are tricky situations and point out the beauty of the >alignment system :-) You see, often a person does not have a choice of >"good" or "evil" actions but of the better of two "goods" or the better of >two "evils" to choose from... > >The use of treachery and betrayal is not a good act, but when it is going to >keep a greater evil from occurring- then it's the better act- and a "good" >character will do it but hesitantly and making sure that there isn't a >"better" >alternative. >A Paladin wholesale slaughtering anything is an evil action. To give an >example, let's take a conversational excerpt from a game (made up of >course). > >Player: I ride in and slay everything that moves. >DM: Slaying the women and children is an evil act. This is something that >your deity would not allow... > >Player: Yeah, but if I don't kill them then there will be more Orcs in the >area >later to reinfest this place and many innocent people will die... > > > >This is player rationalization and justification for an evil act. Did the DM >give >his character divination to tell the future? How does he know that they will >re-infest the area? How does he know that there's not one orc in there that >will happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? To which dave the player of Alonzo responds: And presumably, if Alonzo chooses not to send the terrorists (and thus saves those innocents) this makes him good? Alonzo does not have divination to tell the future. How does he know that by letting those innocents die, he would not have saved many more? How does he know that it would not be dereliction of duty, and failure to stop a much greater evil, *not* to take that risk? In fact, how does he know that this one act would not happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? - ------ A good point I think :) gordon, trying to avoid going for a haircut *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:23:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em I stupidly, and wrongly said: >Ah, OK, this isn't my response but from one of my players.... > >A while ago James replied to a post of mine about Alonzo the elf >sending Glantrian terrorists to Alphatia: I meant of course Jesse, apologies to all concerned, I really need a lie down. gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:27:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Actually, I didn't write the below. I can't remember who it was, but I don't want to take credit for their thoughts. However: > > And presumably, if Alonzo chooses not to send the terrorists (and thus > saves those innocents) this makes him good? > That doesn't nessissarily follow: it's a logical falacy to assume that. > > Alonzo does not have divination to tell the future. How does he know > that by letting those innocents die, he would not have saved many > more? How does he know that it would not be dereliction of duty, and > failure to stop a much greater evil, *not* to take that risk? > Actuall, *I* did cover that in an earlier screed: Alonzo *could* rationalize that by killing some folks now, and thus shortening the war (perhaps), he is saving many more later. However, the retort to that could be that folks who commit evil acts almost always rationalize their behavior in such a fashion, and the 'good' thing to do would be to avoid the death of innocents, and strike only at "military" targets. Of course, this is war: innocents *will* die. But their is a difference between deliberately targeting them, and avoiding targeting them. > > In fact, how does he know that this one act would not happen to turn > the tide of a greater evil in the future? > Now you sound like Rary (of "Rary the Traitor" fame); "by commiting some evil now, I may gain the ability to prevent more evil in the future". Again, most wicked acts are rationalized in various ways by the person who commits them. This doesn't justify them as "good" acts. In fact, the very indeterminacy of the effects of one's actions is what causes good people to be careful, in situations where evil folks would act irregardless, "I can't know what effect any of my actions will take, so I shouldn't let myself be worried about the ramifications. After all, who knows? If I kill this slag, it may turn out that I prevented Hitler from being born, because he would have been Hitler's father. So I could be doing everyone a favor." > > A while ago James replied to a post of mine about Alonzo the elf > sending Glantrian terrorists to Alphatia: > > >Your above examples are tricky situations and point out the beauty of the > >alignment system :-) You see, often a person does not have a choice of > >"good" or "evil" actions but of the better of two "goods" or the better of > >two "evils" to choose from... > > > >The use of treachery and betrayal is not a good act, but when it is going to > >keep a greater evil from occurring- then it's the better act- and a "good" > >character will do it but hesitantly and making sure that there isn't a > >"better" > >alternative. > >A Paladin wholesale slaughtering anything is an evil action. To give an > >example, let's take a conversational excerpt from a game (made up of > >course). > > > >Player: I ride in and slay everything that moves. > > >DM: Slaying the women and children is an evil act. This is something that > >your deity would not allow... > > > >Player: Yeah, but if I don't kill them then there will be more Orcs in the > >area > >later to reinfest this place and many innocent people will die... > > > > > > > >This is player rationalization and justification for an evil act. Did the DM > >give > >his character divination to tell the future? How does he know that they will > >re-infest the area? How does he know that there's not one orc in there that > >will happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? > > To which dave the player of Alonzo responds: > > And presumably, if Alonzo chooses not to send the terrorists (and thus > saves those innocents) this makes him good? > > Alonzo does not have divination to tell the future. How does he know > that by letting those innocents die, he would not have saved many > more? How does he know that it would not be dereliction of duty, and > failure to stop a much greater evil, *not* to take that risk? > > In fact, how does he know that this one act would not happen to turn > the tide of a greater evil in the future? > > ------ > > A good point I think :) > > gordon, trying to avoid going for a haircut > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:32:33 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >He was also a pre-generated PC in IM2. > Can you post his stats (or at least his sphere and alignment)? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:55:53 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Gordon McCormick wrote: > > To which dave the player of Alonzo responds: > > And presumably, if Alonzo chooses not to send the terrorists (and thus > saves those innocents) this makes him good? No. One good action does not make a character person any more than one evil action makes a character person. Alignment is a way of judging what most actions will be, good or evil. > Alonzo does not have divination to tell the future. How does he know > that by letting those innocents die, he would not have saved many > more? How does he know that it would not be dereliction of duty, and > failure to stop a much greater evil, *not* to take that risk? I think you're over looking that Alonzo is acting on belief. He believes that by killing innocents he will stop more bloodshed. He really doesn't know what the outcome will be either way. He has to make a judgement call and if he's not using alignments then (which are form of personal beliefs) what is he basing his reasoning on? Alignment. Even if he doesn't want to name what alignment he follows, he is still using personal beliefs which is all they are. If he went by a set alignment, he would know what his action is. He could use that alignment to answer questions such as this one. A good alignment doesn't jump at the idea of killing innocents for a possible good outcome. Has the character considered that by performing terrorist activities, he may in turn cause even more of his countrymen to die? At present, I would call Alonzo CN (CE). He's choatic in that he places much importance on *his* belief and neutral in that he's willing to perform evil to achieve good. In fact, I'd say he approaches evil in the belief that good can ever come of evil. > In fact, how does he know that this one act would not happen to turn > the tide of a greater evil in the future? But what are you measuring evil by? The number of dead or yourself (the people you will have to lose)? Is your pain at the death of a family member any different from those family members of the ones you kill? - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:57:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > Oh, and a question, what other games use alignments (or something > like that)? Do any of the newer games use them? (I know the > Storyteller ones don't). If AD&D is the only game left using > alignments should it not keep them to remain unique? I dunno... > > > > Theres almost always an equivalent - a way of describing your character in a > game mechanical kind of way. > > The best ay is probably the Nature/Demeanor White Wolf system. Quick, easy, > more descriptive than AD+D alignment. > > BUT - AD+D is a fantasy Tolkienesque game. Its ultimately a battle of Good > vs Evil. The alignment system reflects that - i cant see a problem with > that. Its the genre. > > Anyone who really has a serious gripe about alignment probably prefers low > fantasy, where things are less clear cut. (I personally generally prefer > low fantasy, so no discrimination :) I think AD&D is vastly different from Tolkien. In many ways AD&D has created its own genre, or at least subgenre of fantasy. I agree that a very common element in fantasy is good and evil, but I think marking each individual as either good or evil (or neutral) is no good. Sauron is perhaps absolute evil, but the rest of the characters chose between good and evil depending on which side they take in the war. Did Saaruman suddenly change alignment? What about Gollum? Gollum is interesting because he would be described as evil by some, yet he actually helps the good side in the end. Putting a CN or CE alignment of Gollum would totally destroy the elements that make him an interesting character. True, he did kill his brother Deagol to obtain the Ring, but there was still good in him. I think Good and Evil should exist to a certain extent, but once it gets too closely defined it becomes boring. One interesting story. In two Glorantha campaigns I was a player in, the GM(in both) ran the same adventure. The plot was that a group of elves were trying to establish themselves in a new forest and a group of Dwarves were out to kill them. The first time, the PCs were mercenaries hired by the Elves to protect them since they had to perform a ceremony in which they were very vulnerable. The second time the GM ran the advneture (with some changes) the PCs were friends of the Dwarves and helped them slay the evil elves. IMO Good and evil existed in this adventure, though it was the PCs opinion that defined these. In a non-alignment system, the PCs will (almost) always define themselves and their allies as good and their enemies as evil. This is much more realistic and it opens a whole range of possible adventures. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:03:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > > Sounds like the Top Secret psychological profile... For those who dont > know, you have different "mental attributes" and a rating for each one... > > you had Loyalty > Passion > Piety > Cruelty > Sanity > > (And i think one other one, which i cant remember :) > > Anyway, each attribute was rated at either No, Low, Some, High or Total, and > when u had all five (six?) together you had a roughly described > personality... > > This Northern Reaches thing sounds similar (well, they are both products of > TSR, so...) Take a look at Chaosium's Character Trait system in the Pendragon Roleplaying game. It is very similar to that in the NR gaz, though much more detailed. Though I am very much againts the alignment system, I really liked he system presented in Pendragon. It is a more dynamic system, which allows characters to change gradually and it does not force characters to act in any special way. If a die roll indicates that a character is likely to react in one way, yet the player decides otherwise, the only thing that happens is that the trait in question is lowered. Thus the system can be seen as a description of how a character has acted, rather than the description of the characters personality as the player made it up before the game. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:06:14 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > >I need some info on Iliric, the Immortal worshipped in Herath. Is there any > >other info on him? Where else is he followed? > > > Ive had a good look - there is no information on Iliric anywhere, AFAIK. > Except that hes called Negyavim, which is a very cool name! > > Either he is some little known aranea Immortal, or he is another Immortal in > disguise. Probably the latter, as Iliric doesnt sound particularly aranean > (and he has an aranean alternate ID...). > > As to who...? Arachne Prime comes to mind... Maybe the Night Spider wasn't destroyed after all? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:06:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric > > >He was also a pre-generated PC in IM2. > > > Can you post his stats (or at least his sphere and alignment)? > I completely forgot he was in there. Duh. . . . Anyhow, Ilric: Sphere: Energy Status: Temporal 2 [could be higher by now, a bit] Power Points: 700 Anti-Magic: 50 AC: 0 HP: 120 Move: Universal Attack: various Damage: per attack Save As: Temporal 2 Alignment: Chaotic Strength: 12 Intelligence: 21 Wisdom: 13 Dexterity: 13 Constitution: 19 Charisma: 20 Iliric's mortal form is that of a wizened old man. He stands 6' tall, though he walks with a rounounced stoop and requires a staff or cane for support. His head is bald, but his face is adorned with a full white beard. The eyes are a milky, hazel color. His Immortal form remedies all the deficiencies of age, appearing as a young man of 30 years in all the vogor of young adulthood [dark hair, beard.] Backround: Iliric always dreamed of being an Immortal and knew he could make it if he tried hard enough ["always?" seems incongruous, since most folks don't even *know* you *can* achieve Immortality --ed]. His first three petitions were denied because of his haughtiness, but persiverence paid off. Personality: Grasping and insensitive, Iliric is a man to be reckoned with. Nothing stands in his way, and any who call him friend are badly mistaken or deluded. Iliric can be charming if it serves his purpose, but he is prone to lying and has a reputation for reneging on his word. Honor seems a silly notion to him. Cribbed from IM2: "The Wrath of Olympus", by Robert J. Blake, copywrite 1987, TSR Inc. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:16:07 +0200 From: Ezio Pignatelli Subject: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em I agree that alignments cannot be used in a 'stupid way'. However, if you stick to 'canon' (here I intend as canon the boxed set, since I do not own Rule Cyclopedia) it's hard not to do that. I do not want to totally remove the whole alignment thing; but something has to be done, if you want to keep a realistic way of playing. So, some question to the ones that are keeping the alignment system (both D&D and AD&D intended): 1) The alignment language. AAAAAAAAARGGH!!! I feel it horrible, unrealistic, a major falw in the rule system. Basically, since your players are lawful or neutral, this is more or less a 'detect alignment' free grant to all players. And: a universal language system that can disrupt any problem due to language when your party travel abroad. Not only is this strongly unbalacing the rules; but it seems to intend the existance of a major organization in the tree main alignment (lawful/neutral/evil) that you have no trace of in Mystara. Assuming that this was intended before the creation of immortals, churches and the deatiling of very different morals, I have removed it. What have you done about this subject? 2) The 'detect alignment' spell. I have removed it as well. And you? 3) The 'aligned' magical weapons, or situations. This is much more simple to do. Having a simple 'label' on each PC/NPC helps you in understanding if a given PC/NPC is able to perform something. basically the only reason why I would keep the alignment system. 4) 'Chaotic' spells. Many spells/actions/reversed spells are labeled as Chaotic. I simply assume that lawful immortals are not granting this spells, and that they would immediately stop granting any spell if some 'bad action' is performed. Following what most modules/gazs/manual are saying. I assume that the following are 'chaotic acts': torture (any form) killing someone who surrended (whatever race is it from) breaking his word Killing undead, in whatever situation, is not considered evil, as well as killing someone (even orc children) if they attack you. 5) Paladins I guess this is something different. Not only is the paladin bound to his church; he also has to keep extraordinary behavior. I am not thinking he has to act stupid; but strictly bound the the moral request of his immortal. All considered, I think point 3/4/5/ can be handled without problems, and just removing the penalty for change in alignment. 1) or 2) are still a problem for me. Suggestions? - -- Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840 mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat - -- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #565 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, August 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 566 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments [MYSTARA] - Re: Any Update on Princess Ark Compilation? Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - If you liked #9, you'll love #18 Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - If you liked #9, you'll love #18 Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:32:36 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > Did Saaruman suddenly change alignment? What about Gollum? Gollum is > interesting because he would be described as evil by some, yet he > actually helps the good side in the end. Putting a CN or CE alignment of > Gollum would totally destroy the elements that make him an interesting > character. True, he did kill his brother Deagol to obtain the Ring, but > there was still good in him. I disagree. You're talking about individual actions. One act does not determine you alignment the same way one beer doesn't make you a drunk. They way they work is to take your example of Gollum. Add all his actions together (his actions not their outcomes) and the one most prominent is his alignment. Gollum's really not a good example as he's under the influence of the ring but we could see what the ring would do and understand Gandalf's warning about using it. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:44:09 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Hi Harold: At 09:54 AM 8/12/98 -0700, Harold Johnson wrote: >mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >>is there a way to make a character from the saga rules into real ad&d >> >>Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: >> >Jenni, > > Converting Saga characters to AD&D rules should just require the reverse >of the process for converting AD&D to SAGA according to the designer. 'Twasn't me that asked the question about saga rules. It was someone who was replying to an earlier post of mine. Still, I'm sure that whoever it was that was wondering will appreciate your comments. ;-) Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:56:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments - ----->> NEUTRALs believe that the needs of the situation and personal survival >> should outweigh social moraes. This is true selfishness, rationalizing >> that the goal justifies whatever means are necessary to reach the goal. Well, neutral evils, anyway. Looking at Planescape the supposed definition of NE is apathy and selfishness - you dont care about anything, bar yourself. To a NE character society is irrelevant. On the other hand, a typical NG cares little about society, he only cares about doing good. If he considers a given society to be a good thing he will tag along, but if he doesnt he wont pay undue attention to its laws or anything like that. (Although the Planescape "key word" for Neutral Good is altruism...) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:03:40 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >Charm is cool, but I do a lot of "Mystery" type adventures, the first >load of adventures in my Glantri Campaign were all Private >Investigator type things. To have ESP would make it silly easy to >discover who did it! Well, ESP only reads surface thoughts, ie only what they are thinking at that time. Probably "scum, get out of my head". If you interrogate the victim with the aid of an ESP spell, they get a save vs spells with a +4 bonus to prevent any useful info from being learned. (And, of course, if its necessary to the adventure, the save can be rolled securely behind the DMs screen...) i.e - esp isnt really much good. Psionics is better - but generally u need to get a telepath in close proximity to the target for a long time, and the telepath has to make all of his rolls, and the victim has to fail all his. And of course, psionics has to exist IYC... (I bring up psionics because I'm quite heavily into all the mind affecting type stuff :) Besides, in a place like Glantri there are ways around esp... If ESP is too much of a problem bring in the oD+D reverse, mindmask. (Or use non-detection). > So I just quietly removed that spell from >Mystara. I allow Dream Mages to do weird mind things but keep them in >the background (imagine PsiCops). Other Knowledge Gathering spells >are cool, but as long as they're suitably cryptic to make the players >still work, while still being useful information! Dream Mages are very, very cool. But powerful, with it. If the poor victim is of a lower level than the Dream Mage hes effectively a zombie... (Or dead). Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:13:56 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em - ----- > BUT - AD+D is a fantasy Tolkienesque game. Its ultimately a battle of Good > vs Evil. The alignment system reflects that - i cant see a problem with > that. Its the genre. > > Anyone who really has a serious gripe about alignment probably prefers low > fantasy, where things are less clear cut. (I personally generally prefer > low fantasy, so no discrimination :) >I think AD&D is vastly different from Tolkien. In many ways AD&D has >created its own genre, or at least subgenre of fantasy. Tolkien is high fantasy (the Silmarillion doesnt get any higher :) Low and mid level D+D is generally low fantasy nowadays. High fantasy stuff generally causes massive campaign changes - and we all know that very few campaign worlds have this to any great extent. (There was an article about this in an old Dragon mag - the Highs and Lows of Fantasy, IIRC) >I agree that a very common element in fantasy is good and evil, but I >think marking each individual as either good or evil (or neutral) is no >good. Sauron is perhaps absolute evil, but the rest of the characters >chose between good and evil depending on which side they take in the war. >Did Saaruman suddenly change alignment? What about Gollum? Gollum is >interesting because he would be described as evil by some, yet he >actually helps the good side in the end. Putting a CN or CE alignment of >Gollum would totally destroy the elements that make him an interesting >character. True, he did kill his brother Deagol to obtain the Ring, but >there was still good in him. Gollum was chaotic evil. Without a doubt. He was after the Ring at all points in Lord of the Rings. A CE character doesnt have to be a total git all of the time. And Gollum wasnt. Saruman was probably Neutral initially (his goal was to drive Sauron out, period.) He changed to Evil after a while though (because he used the palantiri to scry Sauron - or in D+D terms started using a crystal hypnosis ball and changed alignment...) >I think Good and Evil should exist to a certain extent, but once it gets >too closely defined it becomes boring. Well, thats High Fantasy. Take Star Wars - ok, its space opera, but thats really just a sci fi version of swashbuckling high fantasy. There is the Light Side, and the Dark Side, and that really is what its all about. The three films are ultimately the tale of Darth Vaders redemption, and the defeat of the Empire. I think you should be allowed to change your alignments, with reason. Remember, at the end of the day all alignment is is a way to very broadly describe a characters moral and ethical outlook in two words. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:15:13 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >Arachne Prime comes to mind... Maybe the Night Spider wasn't destroyed >after all? I dont think Arachne Prime is, in the adventure. I think shes just banished. (I could be wrong here...) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:33:33 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Ezio Pignatelli wrote: > > 1) The alignment language. Never enter my games. I didn't like it when I first read it and never saw anything that explained what exactly its use was so I've never considered bring it in. > 2) The 'detect alignment' spell. Again, not very well explained, in my opinion. Only serves to give players a peek into something they should discover through interaction. > All considered, I think point 3/4/5/ can be handled without problems, > and just removing the penalty for change in alignment. 1) or 2) are > still a problem for me. Suggestions? Dump them. I think most have especially the alignment language. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:30:45 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments > > Well, neutral evils, anyway. > On the other hand, a typical NG cares little about society, he only cares > about doing good. > I think dude was only describing the D&D alignments, not the AD&D ones, in which case his description was accurate. As far as your description of NGs, IMO it's a bit innacurate: it's the CGs that don't care about society. NGs will care about a society *if* its institutions serve "good" purposes, and will work to subvert the society if thouse institutions serve "evil" purposes. In other words, it's a slight (but significant) difference: CGs don't care about society, only themselves and their friends. NGs have a "flexable" stance towards society: they'll take it if it's "good", and leave it if it's "bad". A LG, likewise, would try to "work within the system" to reform bad institutions for the benifit of society as a whole. A CG on the other hand would only care how thouse institutions affect him & his buddies (if they are benevolent towards them, then he'll approve. If not, he'll ignore them: this aspect IMO is one of the things that brings a "connection" between the CG alignment and the LE one, since LEs also care mainly about how institutions affect them. The difference is that they twist/use the laws to serve their own purposes, while CGs just ignore laws and institutions that they dislike.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Any Update on Princess Ark Compilation? >Heya Glen: > > Just cleaning out my email box and came across your notice about the >Princess Ark compilation again. Any word from TSR on whether you can share >or not? If you haven't heard, perhaps trying Howard Johnson (our >'official' WotC/TSR rep) would be a good idea (assuming you sent your >request to someone else originally). > > Just curious, and breathlessly awaiting a chance to see the P.Ark stuff >I've never had an opportunity to read. :-) > >Jenni This was sent only to me, but since I've had over two dozen requests for the package, I'll answer to the list to save time. I heard rfom Bruce (all hail!) Heard himself, who has no problem with me making this accessible to the devout and the faithful. However, I still haven't heard from TSR/WotC yet. Therefore I'm still unsure that I won't have my face sued off the instant I transmit a few bytes of this package over the net. I'm going to renew my request to them today, so we'll have to hope we hear from them soon. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten you :-) Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:31:53 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. > haven't heard from TSR/WotC yet. Therefore I'm still unsure that I won't > have my face sued off the instant I transmit a few bytes of this package > over the net. > Firstly, regarding such things: Hmmmn. . .I just sent "Iliric" out. I guess that means they can sue me for all I've got. Ahhh, the wonders of poverty. . . . 8-) Now, on to the meat of this post, which is a (perhaps) alternative view of the Law/Chaos divide, philosphically. I'm going to ignore good vs evil (since this is the MML, and good/evil is AD&D), and also, for now, neutrality (since I'm less clear how to "fit it into" the below). Chaotic types are concerned with how things affect them. Philosophically, this means they are inconsistant. Take some IRL examples: your average pot head is very concerned about drug laws, because they affect him personally, but not gun laws, since he doesn't own a gun, nor does he plan to own one. Conversely, your average gun lover is up in arms over gun regulations, but is in favor of the drug war. On abortion. . . on second thought, let's *not* open that particular can of worms. Point: the saying "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" is a favorite one. They aren't (nessisarily) philosphical "individualists", since they don't apply *any* principle generally (accross the board, in all situations): principles are flexably applied based on their personal experiences, *as* individuals, and based on how the application of a concept (law, regulation, idea, institution) affects them. Lawful types on the other hand have a "coherent" set of principles, and apply them generally. They may, thus, be either opposed to or in favor of both weapon and drug regulations (depending on the philosophical principles they believe in), and how such regulations affect them personally is of little consiquence (in theory). They *may* change their mind on an issue, or even *appear* to apply a principle "inconsistantly", but generally only because of a "competing" principle (I.E., and crudely: they may believe in liberty, and freedom of choice as a principle, but would limit the extent of such freedoms because they place value on life, and also hold a principle that "your freedom stops at my nose": I.E. laws and regulations against harming others, consistently applied to maximize the "general welfare"). Neutrals: How they'd fit into the above is IMO unclear. One could say that they have one "general principle" (the "balance" is often cited), but make selective decisions about everything else (perhaps based on "self-serving" motives). Comments and critiques not only welcomed but encouraged. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:36:07 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. Oh, one other point relating to the below, comparing Lawful types vs. Chaotic types: Both can change their opinion/possition on any given subject. For chaotic types, their position will tend to change with their own personal circumstances. For Lawful types, their position on a given subject could be changed if someone, through rational argumentation, could show that their application of a "general principle" was/is flawed and in need of revision, or if another "general principle" could be shown to take priority over the one that they have applied. > > Now, on to the meat of this post, which is a (perhaps) alternative view of > the Law/Chaos divide, philosphically. I'm going to ignore good vs evil > (since this is the MML, and good/evil is AD&D), and also, for now, > neutrality (since I'm less clear how to "fit it into" the below). > > Chaotic types are concerned with how things affect them. Philosophically, > this means they are inconsistant. Take some IRL examples: your average pot > head is very concerned about drug laws, because they affect him personally, > but not gun laws, since he doesn't own a gun, nor does he plan to own one. > Conversely, your average gun lover is up in arms over gun regulations, but > is in favor of the drug war. On abortion. . . on second thought, let's > *not* open that particular can of worms. > Point: the saying "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" is a > favorite one. They aren't (nessisarily) philosphical "individualists", > since they don't apply *any* principle generally (accross the board, in all > situations): principles are flexably applied based on their personal > experiences, *as* individuals, and based on how the application of a > concept (law, regulation, idea, institution) affects them. > > Lawful types on the other hand have a "coherent" set of principles, and > apply them generally. They may, thus, be either opposed to or in favor of > both weapon and drug regulations (depending on the philosophical principles > they believe in), and how such regulations affect them personally is of > little consiquence (in theory). They *may* change their mind on an issue, > or even *appear* to apply a principle "inconsistantly", but generally only > because of a "competing" principle (I.E., and crudely: they may believe in > liberty, and freedom of choice as a principle, but would limit the extent > of such freedoms because they place value on life, and also hold a > principle that "your freedom stops at my nose": I.E. laws and regulations > against harming others, consistently applied to maximize the "general > welfare"). > > Neutrals: How they'd fit into the above is IMO unclear. One could say that > they have one "general principle" (the "balance" is often cited), but make > selective decisions about everything else (perhaps based on "self-serving" > motives). > > Comments and critiques not only welcomed but encouraged. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:38:21 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) At 13.34 11/08/98 -0700, Jesse LaBranche wrote: > >Another, albeit slight, disagreement. When a police officer pulls you over- >he's got a job to do. >How rude, friendly he is- whether he writes you a ticket or >harasses you, and whether he'll accept a bribe, ask for one, or bust you for >that too are all measures of his alignment. (Granted- Personality too). They're also measures of how he was trained and where he lives. Here in Italy U.S. policemen are considered rude guys that treat you as the most wanted criminal even if you've just exceeded the speed limit. (I don't know if this is true, I think it's probably due to the way U.S. police officers are portrayed in movies). OTOH we think that our policemen are very polite, but probably the British, whose police officers are even more polite, think that ours are rude... I don't think his is just a matter of personality or alignment. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:36:41 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em At 09:48 AM 8/12/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > >> >> But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do >something? >> (That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) >> >That's question #9: > >9. Your diety tells you to walk on hot coals. You promplty: > a. practice shouting "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!" Hmm...this actually kind of interesting. A good diety would probably not let you come to any harm because of this,(test of faith) or would either have a really good reason for doing this. On the other hand, an evil deity would probably just want to see you suffer. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:59:41 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - If you liked #9, you'll love #18 > > > >9. Your diety tells you to walk on hot coals. You promplty: > > a. practice shouting "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!" > > Hmm...this actually kind of interesting. A good diety Well, if you liked that one, then what do you think of this (also related) question, from the same article: 18: How can you detect for evil alignment among your henchmen? a. Look for bad penmanship. b. Cast a spell. c. Flip a coin. d. Use torture. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:35:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >OTOH we think that our policemen are very polite, but probably the British, >whose police officers are even more polite, think that ours are rude... >I don't think his is just a matter of personality or alignment. Lol. It is true, when I got lost in London, that a cop was by far the most polite guy I asked directions from. As to alignment and personality - i dont think that makes in difference in the example. Speaking of alignment - presumably all Officers of the Law are lawful. Lawful Good cops enforce the spirit of the law, Lawful Neutral the letter of the law, and Lawful Evil attempt to make the most out of the law (bent cops?) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:40:46 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - If you liked #9, you'll love #18 At 04:59 PM 8/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >9. Your diety tells you to walk on hot coals. You promplty: >> > a. practice shouting "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!" >> >> Hmm...this actually kind of interesting. A good diety > >Well, if you liked that one, then what do you think of this (also related) >question, from the same article: > >18: How can you detect for evil alignment among your henchmen? > a. Look for bad penmanship. Of course, all those of evil alignment have bad penmanship...:) > b. Cast a spell. > c. Flip a coin. > d. Use torture. But really, you observe the person over a period of time. Its hard to hide your true alignment from someone, if your with that person alot. There are usually things that one does almost automatically, in response to given situation, and if your not always vigilant, these will betray you, and thats what usually happens. Now suppose, you need to trust someone, on short notice, to do something, and not betray you. Well the best thing would be not to use that particular person, although thats not always an option. Well, its hard to give general advice for a specific situation, and leave it at plan for the worst, expect the best. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:22:44 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Many people often use the "one man's traitor [or terrorist, or whatever] is another man's freedom fighter" to excuse whatever behavior is in question. Conversly, others (rightly, IMO) assert that "no good can come from doing evil" and/or that the ends do *not* justify the means. Both arguments are valid, but not nessisarily for the reasons that either proponent recognizes. For example, I think that most of us could agree that assassination, based on general principles, is wrong. However, most of us would also admire Count von Staffenburg. Are we then inconsistant? Moral relativists? Not nessissarily. What is at stake is not only one "general principle", but a whole series of (sometimes competing) general principles. PCs kill in games because it's fun and unreal (which doesn't mean that outside the game we support mass murder as a "entertaining" exercise). *Characters* kill for a variety of reasons, but lawful and/or good ones kill for "justified*" reasons: one could say because the "good" of their actions outweighs the "bad" (Kill a tyrant, like the Shadow Lord of Denagoth, to save good folk from being slaughtered and/or ending up under his tyranny). As a general rule, killing is "bad", but adventurers are in the "killing business" because compeating goods (especially in games) outweigh the negative aspects of their actions. *IRL arguments, I.E. by pacifists, could be put forth that no killing is ever "justified", but we're talking for *game* purposes here, not IRL philosophies. However, I would be hard pressed to come up with a justification that slaughtering a villiage of unarmed pesants in Denagoth by our hero's would be a "good" or "lawful" act. Similarly, leading "terror squads" into Alphatia (a nation hardly ruled by a "Stalinist" type tyrant) and targeting innocent people would be a justified act, even if one could win the war quicker (such methods are used by villians, for reasons of expedience, in games: not by the heroic). A truely honorable/lawful/heroic/good character would come up with a more creative way to achieve the same end, or at least to *attempt* to achieve the same end (especially since, at the time, one can't *know* that your "terror squads" will end the war quicker than if you don't use them: or perhaps they will, by so inflaming the sentiments of the Alphatian spellcasters that they "nuke" Glantri sooner rather than later). The very a priori indeterminacy means that any number of methods, some more "good" than others, can be employed to try to achieve the same goals (blowing up armories at night, perhaps, to strike at Alphatian logistical/supply capacity, instead of killing innocents). You can't *know* if either method will be effective, but a "good" character will attempt the "better" alternative. Oh, and: would assassiating Eriadna be "justified"? No, for several reasons, the most important being that Eriadna wasn't the "cause" of the war, and "eliminating" her from the picture would not help the cause of "good" (by ending the war), and could (and eventually. . . .) lead to a "worse" ruler (Zandor, anyone) willing to use methods that Eriadna would not (I.E. turning Glantri City into a "Lake of Glass"). A "Shadow Lord of Denagoth" type tyrant, on the other hand, can and should be targeted, because he is the origin of the problem to begin with (the "focus of evil", a la Sauron). The general consiquences of "dubious" methods should also discourage "Neutral" types, if they are sufficiently intelligent: "escalating" the war by using such methods could encourage your enemy to emulate you, and go "one step beyond". In fact, it is *more* likely that a powerful nation like Alphatia would be "stired" to respond with "Total War" rather than surrender in the face of "wicked attacks against our people". Thus, Glantrian "heros" use "terror strikes" at their peril. The response by Alphatia could be, from a Glantrian perspective. . . .unwelcomed. . . . . . . . . *Glantri City turned to ash*. (btw, this is a basic strategic concept: some methods, even if "effective" at lower levels [tactical, operational, theater strategy, etc.], "vertically" may be totally negated, or even counter-productive, at the level of "Grand Strategy". I.E. the "terror squads", which could be bad diplomatically [other nations look on Glantri unfavorably], and result in a response by your oponent that is "undesirable". Perhaps the foremost example of this is the Japanese strike on Pearl Harbor, which was a complete tactical and operational success, a partial theater success [missed the Carriers], but a disaster at the level of Grand Strategy, and the act that doomed them, because getting the United States into the war in that way guaranteed a Japanese defeat. Similarly, "terror strikes" on generally apathetic Alphatia could create such a response that it makes Glantri's situation far worse than it is now, encouraging the Alphatians to mobilize all their power to wipe Glantri off the map. Bad idea, not just because it is "morally wrong", but it is strategically wrong.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... >Well, if you liked that one, then what do you think of this (also related) >question, from the same article: > >18: How can you detect for evil alignment among your henchmen? > a. Look for bad penmanship. > b. Cast a spell. > c. Flip a coin. > d. Use torture. How about this one? A *portable hole*: a. a day keeps the ogre away. b. comes in handy in the king's treasury. c. What? d. holds a lot of beer. Or this? What's a druid good for? a. Flower arrangements. b. Nature spells. c. Beats me. d. Calling forest creatures for target practice. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #566 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, August 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 567 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em [MYSTARA] - In defence of on topic posts Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em RE: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:19:20 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... The answers, of course, are D. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:45:20 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >Speaking of alignment - presumably all Officers of the Law are lawful. >Lawful Good cops enforce the spirit of the law, Lawful Neutral the letter of >the law, and Lawful Evil attempt to make the most out of the law (bent >cops?) >Cheerz >Rob I wouldn't say that all Officers are Lawful. The vast majority- yes. But, I'd say that you'll find all alignments in any vast group of people. A LE Officer would twist the law to fit their use, but a CE Officer would just ignore the law when he could get away with it- but would probably, eventually, do something that he couldn't get away with... A NE one would twist the law when he could, and break it when he couldn't twist it, but could get away with it. I do think that most officers fall into that LN (Hey just doing my job), or NG (Took the job to help people- but there's too much red tape to do my job) Alignments. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:07:08 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > NG > (Took the job to help people- but there's too much red tape to do my job) > Alignments. > What alignment would "Dirty Harry" Callahan be considered? (and I mean the dude as depicted in the actual films). I'm not sure he'd fit neatly into any specific alignment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:36:10 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >> Not really. The Inquistion was definitely one of the darker events in >> human history although it was in the name of "God". Many things are >> done in the name of god or country- but evil is evil. >> When he's doing an *evil* action (like wholesale slaughter, treachery, >> assassination) to stop a greater evil from occurring (mass destruction >> of home, friends, etc.) he's not doing a good thing either way- he's >> choosing the better of two evils. >> Now, if he takes great pleasure in the evils that he's committing- then >> he's not a good character but an evil one... >> Jesse. >But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do something? >(That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) >Christian I have a little trouble imagining a deity who supports Paladins telling one to commit wholesale genocide on an entire race of beings, but... If a Paladins told to by his deity, then he does it. I don't imagine that he'd be too happy about it- but it would be expected as an act of faith. People are not always in agreement with what they're ordered to do by their deity, but they will do it if they're of enough faith. The deity (usually) doesn't care whether they like it or not, but whether they obey or not... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:39:14 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >Oh, and a question, what other games use alignments (or something >like that)? Do any of the newer games use them? (I know the >Storyteller ones don't). If AD&D is the only game left using >alignments should it not keep them to remain unique? I dunno... >gordon There's a few of them out there, but they are few and far between. AS far as keeping it so that AD&D remains unique- I'm for that as much as the fact that alignment is one of the "roots" or "foundations" of XD&D and when you pull the "foundations" the building crumbles... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:48:00 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I agree with this, though it could cause some problems because you could >have 2 lawful PC which follow 2 completely different set of laws. >For example, let's imagine there's a country with "evil" laws. A character >killing an AE is a lawful action for SE, and killing a SE a lawful action >for AE... this is sort of funny :-) >Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it I did see that precise scenario somewhere in my readings in the past- two countries that were LG pitted in a war with each other over ethical and political things... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:59:12 +1000 From: stan Subject: [MYSTARA] - In defence of on topic posts >What alignment would "Dirty Harry" Callahan be considered? (and I mean the >dude as depicted in the actual films). I'm not sure he'd fit neatly into >any specific alignment. Don't you think this might be getting a lil' bit off the topic of D&D. Just a lil' bit? stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 PS check out the latest update of my homepage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:57:17 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >>Bin spells like that a mage becomes nothing more than a fantasy version of a >>155mm howitzer. Stuff like charm person and ESP is what separates a mage >>from a killing machine. >Charm is cool, but I do a lot of "Mystery" type adventures, the first >load of adventures in my Glantri Campaign were all Private >Investigator type things. To have ESP would make it silly easy to >discover who did it! So I just quietly removed that spell from >Mystara. I allow Dream Mages to do weird mind things but keep them in >the background (imagine PsiCops). Other Knowledge Gathering spells >are cool, but as long as they're suitably cryptic to make the players >still work, while still being useful information! >Phew... >gordon "Magic Dead" areas, and such work wonders as does limiting how easily the spells of this variety are found- make them rarer in your games I think. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:01:40 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >This talk about penalising xp for acting out of character doesn`t hold >water. RW analogy is when this happens people`s reactions to that person >change but with two major variables how out of character it was and how >widely publicised. This is a ROLEPLAYING challenge to be overcome, not >an excuse to go wipe out some more defenceless, relatively, humanoids. Do you give xp for good role-playing as suggested in the DMG? If so then they should also be penalized for poor role-playing... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:09:00 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >Getting back to the main thread though as players we ALL have bad days >when we make a mistake or are just in a different mindset to that >usually used for this particular character so the mask slips. This is >the time that any GOOD GM asks the player are they sure that`s what they >want to do. No mortal can be perfect by definition so why fall into the >trap of imposing unreasonable penalties for a very human failing. Yes I >know we`ve all got those stories about when so&so really messed up, but >howcome when we tell the one about when we messed up it`s almost always >a mistake, or bad call etc. Alignment may be good for novices but its >actually stillcalled roleplaying isn`t it? We're talking about penalizing characters for a change of alignment- this does not usually (has never happened in any of my games) something that occurs instantly in a single night of play... Penalties for an alignment change are not unreasonable and are not given for a simple human failing. Alignments are VERY USEFUL for a Novice, but I find them VERY USEFUL (Both emphasis not shouting) as a "Professional" DM as well. Most people who have argued against alignments have little to no actual under- standing of the actual system. They have glanced over it, maybe read it, given it little thought, tried it, and decided that it wouldn't work without playing with it at all. (I did say MOST for a reason- note). Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:50:05 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Harold Johnson wrote: >Jesse, >NEUTRALs believe that the needs of the situation and personal survival >should outweigh social moraes. This is true selfishness, rationalizing >that the goal justifies whatever means are necessary to reach the goal. Hello Harold. I was really hoping to hear from you Frank or Bruce on this one. I could not for the life of me justify True Neutrals and everything that I've seen in print has pointed at "balancing" the alignments- I hated that concept completely. So, a question, how does a CN not fit into the TN format that you described above? Later. Jesse. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:09:06 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >The use of treachery and betrayal is not a good act, but when it is going to >keep a greater evil from occurring- then it's the better act- and a "good" >character will do it but hesitantly and making sure that there isn't a >"better" alternative. >A Paladin wholesale slaughtering anything is an evil action. To give an >example, let's take a conversational excerpt from a game (made up of >course). >Player: I ride in and slay everything that moves. >DM: Slaying the women and children is an evil act. This is something that >your deity would not allow... >Player: Yeah, but if I don't kill them then there will be more Orcs in the >area later to reinfest this place and many innocent people will die... >This is player rationalization and justification for an evil act. Did the DM >give his character divination to tell the future? How does he know that >they will re-infest the area? How does he know that there's not one orc >in there that will happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? To which dave the player of Alonzo responds: And presumably, if Alonzo chooses not to send the terrorists (and thus saves those innocents) this makes him good? Alonzo does not have divination to tell the future. How does he know that by letting those innocents die, he would not have saved many more? How does he know that it would not be dereliction of duty, and failure to stop a much greater evil, *not* to take that risk? In fact, how does he know that this one act would not happen to turn the tide of a greater evil in the future? - ------ A good point I think :) gordon, trying to avoid going for a haircut Alonzo's player has just seen the point. He's still "good" alignment-wise although he's committing an evil act because he's acting in the interest of good. Not attempting to put a stop to evil is as evil as the evil itself- so he's doing the "right" (IE. Good) thing by trying to stop it- Justifiable evil with good intent. Was that clear? Let me try again... The character has two choices: 1.Try to stop the "Greater" evil by engaging in a "Lesser" evil. 2.Ignore the "Greater" evil and allow it to sweep down on his own people. A good person, by necessity must choose the lesser of two evils by attempting to put a stop to the "Greater" one. This is a classic example of a Good person performing an Evil act- Justifiable, but still an evil act. Does it change his alignment? NO! Not until one day he wakes up and realizes that the evils that he's done so many of have made him that way. This occurs when he's performing more evils in his everyday life than he is goods... I'll have to post my alignment graphing system next I think :-) Hope that made some sense. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:29:48 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I agree that a very common element in fantasy is good and evil, but I >think marking each individual as either good or evil (or neutral) is no >good. Sauron is perhaps absolute evil, but the rest of the characters >chose between good and evil depending on which side they take in the war. >Did Saaruman suddenly change alignment? What about Gollum? Gollum is >interesting because he would be described as evil by some, yet he >actually helps the good side in the end. Putting a CN or CE alignment of >Gollum would totally destroy the elements that make him an interesting >character. True, he did kill his brother Deagol to obtain the Ring, but >there was still good in him. I'd say that Gollum was a CN (Maybe Harold's TN- have to give that one more thought), but the ring influenced him in an evil direction changing him to CE For Saruman- yes he had a change in alignment, but it wasn't a "sudden" change it's not like he and Gandolf spoke with each other at regular intervals. It could have been 5-10 years between their last visit and the one where he "captured" Gandolf in the tower. It is very apparent, with a study of the books, that Saruman was a good person at one time, but his actions during the War of the Rings says that he wasn't at all good by that point. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:44:11 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >1) The alignment language. I got rid of this about 15 years ago :-) >2) The 'detect alignment' spell. >I have removed it as well. And you? Since "Det. Evil" should have been named "Det. Hostile Intent" I've kept it... Know alignment is a 2nd level spell and I do keep it. >4) 'Chaotic' spells. >Many spells/actions/reversed spells are labeled as Chaotic. >I simply assume that lawful immortals are not granting this spells, and >that they would immediately stop granting any spell if some 'bad action' >is performed. Following what most modules/gazs/manual are saying. I >assume that the following are 'chaotic acts': >torture (any form) >killing someone who surrended (whatever race is it from) >breaking his word >Killing undead, in whatever situation, is not considered evil, as well >as killing someone (even orc children) if they attack you. This proves my point further that L/C in OD&D were misnomered. >5) Paladins >I guess this is something different. Not only is the paladin >bound to his church; he also has to keep extraordinary behavior. >I am not thinking he has to act stupid; but strictly bound the the moral >request of his immortal. Agreed. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:11:02 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em The Interesting thing here is that the gods (immortals) is mystara are(where) human (mortal) so they will have their own grips/setups. so as in the PWA Vanya sends Herr Wulf Von Klagendorf to stomp on some people she didn't like. In this situation a paladin could have some problems following his god. In oD&D paladins/avengers are those fighters that get sponsorship from a church. This would be interesting if the powers/spells where dependant on the immortal who's church you went to. So what abilities does the paladin/avenger get from different gods? All getting the same is uninteresting. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jesse LaBranche [SMTP:vanquer@softhome.net] > > > >But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do > something? > >(That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) > >Christian > > I have a little trouble imagining a deity who supports Paladins telling > one > to > commit wholesale genocide on an entire race of beings, but... If a > Paladins > told > to by his deity, then he does it. > I don't imagine that he'd be too happy about it- but it would be expected > as > an > act of faith. > People are not always in agreement with what they're ordered to do by > their > deity, but they will do it if they're of enough faith. The deity (usually) > doesn't care > whether they like it or not, but whether they obey or not... > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:33:01 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >What alignment would "Dirty Harry" Callahan be considered? (and I mean the >dude as depicted in the actual films). I'm not sure he'd fit neatly into >any specific alignment. My take (and this is a difficult one- remembering that it's been forever since I watched Dirty Harry) on him would be LN. I'm not talking about following "The Law" here but following his own sort of "Honor Code" he acted very consistently, and held to Justice very strongly although his methods were a bit on the "brutal" side probably keeping him from being Good. OTOH, he didn't exactly go around telling innocent people to "make my day" either, and didn't really seem to enjoy the need to kill... I'd count the actions from whence his name come as one of the "vices" of a character not really placing that as a major emphasis on the alignment perspective. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:41:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) I said: >>Charm is cool, but I do a lot of "Mystery" type adventures, the first >>load of adventures in my Glantri Campaign were all Private >>Investigator type things. To have ESP would make it silly easy to >>discover who did it! So I just quietly removed that spell from >>Mystara. I allow Dream Mages to do weird mind things but keep them in >>the background (imagine PsiCops). Other Knowledge Gathering spells >>are cool, but as long as they're suitably cryptic to make the players >>still work, while still being useful information! Jesse said: >"Magic Dead" areas, and such work wonders as does limiting how easily the >spells of this variety are found- make them rarer in your games I think. Good idea, especially about the limiting of spells (not everyone should have all the spells in the book! - perhaps more difficult to do with just the RC). Of course making Glantri City a Magic Dead Zone may not be a good idea :) (Although the Alphatians might think so...) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:41:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Thanks for the responses to my post, they were very enlightening! One thing I did notice though, was that several people (all of whom I think know what they're talking about) had very different ideas about good and evil (and all of them had *very* good points). This is where I think the flaw in the Alignment system shows up. Despite what Galwylin said about everyone knowing what good and evil are, I think this shows that in tricky situations it becomes less clear. And I like tricky situations, they are cause for some great RP*, and they make for some cool stories, and that's part of the fun I get out of RPing, is the telling of stories in that incredible wierd and wacky world... *A quote from Gary Gygax about the more storytelling aspects of Role-Playing goes along the lines of describing it as "boring yacking and amatuer thespianism". I kinda think that's the best part. gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:45:25 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >In oD&D paladins/avengers are those fighters that get sponsorship from a >church. >This would be interesting if the powers/spells where dependant on the >immortal who's church you went to. >So what abilities does the paladin/avenger get from different gods? >All getting the same is uninteresting. I'd say that the AD&D Complete Priest's handbook would be an excellent purchase for anyone wanting to design the church of an Immortal (And yes it converts easily to OD&D too- I believe) and determine more individualized powers for Paladins and Priests. I'm curious as to anyone on this list has read the book "The Primal Order" published by WotC before the buy-out. For those who have, did you apply the information to Immortals in your campaigns? I'd be interested in hearing the replies... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:12:40 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Jesse said: >"Magic Dead" areas, and such work wonders as does limiting how easily the >spells of this variety are found- make them rarer in your games I think. Good idea, especially about the limiting of spells (not everyone should have all the spells in the book! - perhaps more difficult to do with just the RC). Of course making Glantri City a Magic Dead Zone may not be a good idea :) (Although the Alphatians might think so...) gordon I didn't mean a whole city- more like the area that the Mage/recipient of the ESP were in at the time that the spell was cast... Also, I think it was Galwylin who pointed out that ESP is only surface thoughts. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:17:08 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) One thing I did notice though, was that several people (all of whom I think know what they're talking about) had very different ideas about good and evil (and all of them had *very* good points). This is where I think the flaw in the Alignment system shows up. Despite what Galwylin said about everyone knowing what good and evil are, I think this shows that in tricky situations it becomes less clear. gordon That lack of clarity may just be what makes the alignment system so great as well- not sure how to define that one though. I'd say that putting your own ethic on it and making sure that your players under- stand what you've chosen is the way to make it work. What I think is funny is that these arguments come up when discussing the system, but in some 22 years of play with groups in 6 states and 8 cities over-all some 150 gamers the only arguments over it that have ever come up in my games are in regards to the TN alignment- and I think that Mr. Johnson gave me a good insight that I need some time to mull over in my mind on that one :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:04:11 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alonzo's Choice was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Gordon McCormick wrote: > > Despite what > Galwylin said about everyone knowing what good and evil are, I think > this shows that in tricky situations it becomes less clear. Just wanted to add onto my previous comments. I do think people basically know what good and evil is. One reason is that most of us don't kill anyone we have a problem with. Moments of passion rarely give time for thought about repurcusions such as jail time. And some have an outward appearance of good yet it such cases, their personal evils are stronger. In the Alonzo example, the problem isn't coming from not knowing what those differences are but knowing what you comtemplating is good or evil. Alonzo feeling guilt about killing innocent is proof that he knows what is good and what is evil. Which he chooses will be what we can see as his own alignment leanings. Had he just went off and committed the terrorism without question then his alignment is easy to see. That he would hesitant to go through with the action shows there is good in him. The only question is, is there enough that would make him good in a general sense? Action are pretty easy to assign an alignment to. You look at the action itself, not its consequences. Since Alonzo sought to be allowed to commit the terrorism seems to indicate that he is comfortable with committing evil acts. That doesn't mean he has no good in him only that as a whole he is not guided by that good. I can guess that everyone can see I view terroism as evil. One reason is I've never figured out the logic behind killing a snake by striking its body instead of its head. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #567 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, August 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 568 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... [MYSTARA] - Quiz - (was #5 is even better, as is #45...) [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? Re: [MYSTARA] - Quiz - (was #5 is even better, as is #45...) [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:26:21 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... At 10:04 PM 8/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Well, if you liked that one, then what do you think of this (also related) >>question, from the same article: >> >>18: How can you detect for evil alignment among your henchmen? >> a. Look for bad penmanship. >> b. Cast a spell. >> c. Flip a coin. >> d. Use torture. > >How about this one? > >A *portable hole*: > a. a day keeps the ogre away. > b. comes in handy in the king's treasury. > c. What? > d. holds a lot of beer. D)Of course. Of course, you need the 'portable spigot(sp?)' to effectively make use of this. Otherwise, makes handy way to carry loot around on extended adventures.(Hmm.. how exactly did one of those things work? Was there a set duration to them?) > >What's a druid good for? > a. Flower arrangements. > b. Nature spells. > c. Beats me. > d. Calling forest creatures for target practice. > Nuthin! Who need 'em anyway? Pah! Druids! :) b)Nature spells. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:56:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - Quiz - (was #5 is even better, as is #45...) Q1. Who is the Ruler of Karameikos? a. King Dorfin IV b. Duke Stefan Karmeikos III c. King Quisling Stefan I d. Sir Alexius Q2. What is the Nucleus of the Spheres? a. Something to melt cheese in. b. A Nuclear Reactor. c. Another reason to kill Glantrians. d. All of the above. Q3. What happened to Zandor when he was brought to the Hollow World? a. He was thrown of the edge of Alphatia, exiled in a nasty way. b. He was put in prison indefinetly. c. He escaped with the help of a Lupin named Mutley. d. She finally revealed her true nature Q4. Is Kol a shadowelf? a. NO! b. Yes c. Maybe.... d. More to the point, is he one of the Carnifex? ahem, sorry, back to work... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:57:10 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? Does anybody use the rules 'as is' without modification. hmmm, let me rephrase that: Does anybody use different rules for different characters e.g. 1) player A wishes to be a cleric of hate and have instead of turning undead be able to inspire hate in others (small change in attitude, only effect is DM role-playing) (as opposed to in D&D all clerics have the same powers) and 2) player B wants no spell book she'd rather be able to summon some elementals that cause the spell effects. (note that the elementals can be killed/banished, and she needs more time to cast a spell, and if she summons more elementals than she is 'allowed' then she gets sucked into the appropriate elemental plane) (hey this is starting to sound interesting, perhaps I should expand this idea) So what I hope to get is who lets their players(and NPC's) choose what powers they have and how they are implemented (without unbalancing the game) i.e. who looks at the rules and uses the 'spirit' of them rather than the word? (me and my group use the word, but we try to get the 'spirit' with some things) This is sort of in line with the 'change the way your spell works' idea. Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:21:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? Christian wrote: >Does anybody use the rules 'as is' without modification. >hmmm, let me rephrase that: >Does anybody use different rules for different characters Yup, I don't use the rules much anyway, so it's pretty easy to make the different characters have different abilities. I use the Glantrian Circles as ideas for this for example, allowing the Fire Elementalist to flick his fingers to make a light etc. Heck, if things get too unbalancing, the immortals can always drop a meteor on them :) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:23:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Quiz - (was #5 is even better, as is #45...) At 12:56 PM 8/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >Q1. Who is the Ruler of Karameikos? > >a. King Dorfin IV >b. Duke Stefan Karmeikos III >c. King Quisling Stefan I >d. Sir Alexius > My sense of duty tells me not to answer (d), but I'm going to anyway because I've never been offered the throne before and I'm highly flattered :-D >Q2. What is the Nucleus of the Spheres? > >a. Something to melt cheese in. >b. A Nuclear Reactor. >c. Another reason to kill Glantrians. >d. All of the above. > Definitely (d) >Q3. What happened to Zandor when he was brought to the Hollow World? > >a. He was thrown of the edge of Alphatia, exiled in a nasty way. >b. He was put in prison indefinetly. >c. He escaped with the help of a Lupin named Mutley. >d. She finally revealed her true nature > Depends on whose campaign it is; in mine, (a). >Q4. Is Kol a shadowelf? > >a. NO! >b. Yes >c. Maybe.... >d. More to the point, is he one of the Carnifex? > I'm going to go outside the normal range. (e) Who cares?????!!!! Glen, a.k.a. Sir Alexius Danellaran Knight of the Order of the Griffon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:45:10 -0400 From: bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu Subject: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Hi everyone. A lot of conversation on this list focuses on the history and details of various Mystaran nations, cities, and sometimes even better-known individuals. Where are people getting all this information? For myself, I own the Rules Cyclopedia, the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set, and Champions of Mystara. It is from these that I glean my knowledge of the Known World. I know there's a lot of Basic Gazeteers out there that have a wealth of information, but let's face it: most of the Basic Known World stuff/Mystara material is out of print. Do a lot of you use the Gazeteers for your lore, or are you instead referencing the AD&D Mystara material, or a combination of both, or what? A lot of the intracacies these "history discussions" are lost on me, and I suspect on others who also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. - - Brian Courtemanche *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:31:13 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? bcourtemanch@merrimack.edu wrote: > > Hi everyone. A lot of conversation on this list focuses on the history and > details of various Mystaran nations, cities, and sometimes even > better-known individuals. Where are people getting all this information? > For myself, I own the Rules Cyclopedia, the Wrath of the Immortals boxed > set, and Champions of Mystara. It is from these that I glean my knowledge > of the Known World. I know there's a lot of Basic Gazeteers out there that > have a wealth of information, but let's face it: most of the Basic Known > World stuff/Mystara material is out of print. Do a lot of you use the > Gazeteers for your lore, or are you instead referencing the AD&D Mystara > material, or a combination of both, or what? A lot of the intracacies > these "history discussions" are lost on me, and I suspect on others who > also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. The best you can do is look for the newer OOP products such as the Karameikos box, Galntri box, and Poor Wizard's Almanacs. The box sets and Almanacs are the most recent products and provide quite a bit of information. The best chance of locating them is at online stores such as www.hitpointe.com and www.dragontrove.com. Also, check the MML home page for more stores. They can be tough to find but not impossible, unlike some of the Gazetteers. If you're unable to find them then you could always ask what everyone's talking about. I have to do that at times since my reading comprehension apparently isn't as high as others :) - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:32:59 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >Ahhh, that's right: they (the Gods) didn't crater Krynn because the >Kingpriest (and others) were misbehaving, but out of spite. 8-)~ > Sort of like WotI? `Eric the Viking` must now be the difinative for what the gods really are. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:42:41 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >IMO Good and evil existed in this adventure, though it was the PCs opinio= >n >that defined these. In a non-alignment system, the PCs will (almost) >always define themselves and their allies as good and their enemies as >evil. This is much more realistic and it opens a whole range of possible >adventures. > Propaganda at it`s best always paints your own side whiter than white. BTW are we gonna use 20th cent. democratic morality for these definitions or some other? Dark age morality was much different and Eastern moralities even moreso. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:57:36 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >1) The alignment language. >What have you done about this subject? > Exactly the same. However there might be a pont for it asm some sort of reaction modifier for cultures from different planes etc. like with elementals. or is there already that rule I sort of remember some such to do with dominance/opposition. >2) The 'detect alignment' spell. > I`ve modified it to show how well it relates to a characters personal outlook based upon previous actions etc. So laid back PCs find closemind military martinets to be pretty much totally opposite to them, and any PC who`s everfelt remorse over having to kill finds they`re opposite to BOTH amoral mass murderers and fanatics who believe what they`re told. It`s totally subjective and they`ve gotten wildly different results over campaigns depending on who and when the spell was cast, mainlydue to Pc evolution. >All considered, I think point 3/4/5/ can be handled without problems, >and just removing the penalty for change in alignment. 1) or 2) are >still a problem for me. Suggestions? > > >-- >Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova >Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840 >mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat >-- >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:02:33 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I disagree. You're talking about individual actions. One act does not >determine you alignment the same way one beer doesn't make you a drunk.=20 Actually in one case they definately do. Rangers can never overstep the line as there is no way to regain what you lose. Even paladins can atone and get their goodies back. As GMs isn`t it our jobto put foreward these challenging moral encounters or should we just stick to `you see the dragon. roll for initiative`? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:04:34 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >I dont think Arachne Prime is, in the adventure. I think shes just >banished. (I could be wrong here...) > IIrc if you kill her the last time she`s dead `cos its home plane, I`ll check asnd see tonight. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:11:45 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >Remember, at the end of the day all alignment is is a way to very broadly >describe a characters moral and ethical outlook in two words. > That`s the problem though, these days it isn`t due to the emphasis of certain rules spells etc. In fact thinking about it most of these problems really show up when the newbies show up at you group. Virgins are easy they get your groups version, but when an experienced player from elsewhere joins they`ve always got some differences. When it`s a new group of veteran players we have two choices. My world My rules, or all Gms get a basic agreement early on to cut down on the squabbling. As usual this is IMOO ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:19:24 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. >Now, on to the meat of this post, which is a (perhaps) alternative view of >the Law/Chaos divide, philosphically. I'm going to ignore good vs evil >(since this is the MML, and good/evil is AD&D), and also, for now, >neutrality (since I'm less clear how to "fit it into" the below). > > Chaotic types are concerned with how things affect them. Philosophically, >this means they are inconsistant. Take some IRL examples: your average pot >head is very concerned about drug laws, because they affect him personally, >but not gun laws, since he doesn't own a gun, nor does he plan to own one. >Conversely, your average gun lover is up in arms over gun regulations, but >is in favor of the drug war. On abortion. . . on second thought, let's >*not* open that particular can of worms. > Point: the saying "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" is a >favorite one. They aren't (nessisarily) philosphical "individualists", >since they don't apply *any* principle generally (accross the board, in all >situations): principles are flexably applied based on their personal >experiences, *as* individuals, and based on how the application of a >concept (law, regulation, idea, institution) affects them. > > Lawful types on the other hand have a "coherent" set of principles, and >apply them generally. They may, thus, be either opposed to or in favor of >both weapon and drug regulations (depending on the philosophical principles >they believe in), and how such regulations affect them personally is of >little consiquence (in theory). They *may* change their mind on an issue, >or even *appear* to apply a principle "inconsistantly", but generally only >because of a "competing" principle (I.E., and crudely: they may believe in >liberty, and freedom of choice as a principle, but would limit the extent >of such freedoms because they place value on life, and also hold a >principle that "your freedom stops at my nose": I.E. laws and regulations >against harming others, consistently applied to maximize the "general >welfare"). > > Neutrals: How they'd fit into the above is IMO unclear. One could say that >they have one "general principle" (the "balance" is often cited), but make >selective decisions about everything else (perhaps based on "self-serving" >motives). > >Comments and critiques not only welcomed but encouraged. > Simply put: Lawful, Them first me second Chaotic, Me first them second Neutral, Probably as Lawful unless I get put out too much Well that`s how my daughter worked it out! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:22:56 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em paul dooley wrote: > > Actually in one case they definately do. Rangers can never overstep the > line as there is no way to regain what you lose. Even paladins can atone > and get their goodies back. As GMs isn`t it our jobto put foreward these > challenging moral encounters or should we just stick to `you see the > dragon. roll for initiative`? The ranger case isn't the same. Even if he performs an evil act, his abilities maybe lost but he doesn't suffer an alignment shift. Alignment shifts should only happen when it is continual. Just because a character's morals are challenged doesn't mean he should shift alignment. That's the whole reason for presenting them to see if the character can maintain his alignment through them. If there is no reward for maintaining alignment or penalty for not then morality challenges have no place in the game. A moral challenge should never hinge on one decision though. Many tales of heroes are told of them making a bad choice, accepting it, and setting things right. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:25:43 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >OTOH we think that our policemen are very polite, but probably the British, >whose police officers are even more polite, think that ours are rude... >I don't think his is just a matter of personality or alignment. > Yes, it`s just the way you interact with them that makes it what it is. In UK thesre days we take firearms offences VERY seriously, but are more lowkey with other offences. Our perception of USA is that almost everyone has a car gun, toilet gun, Shopping gun etc.so your poloice are much more wary. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:33:31 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >>I disagree. You're talking about individual actions. One act does not >>determine you alignment the same way one beer doesn't make you a >>drunk.=20 >Actually in one case they definately do. Rangers can never overstep the >line as there is no way to regain what you lose. Even paladins can atone >and get their goodies back. As GMs isn`t it our jobto put foreward these >challenging moral encounters or should we just stick to `you see the >dragon. roll for initiative`? One act doesn't make your alignment. It might make a Ranger lose something, but it doesn't change his alignment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:36:45 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - #5 is even better, as is #45... >What's a druid good for? > a. Flower arrangements. > b. Nature spells. > c. Beats me. > d. Calling forest creatures for target practice. > >Glen > They missed out e. At high levels killing armies ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:42:05 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I have a little trouble imagining a deity who supports Paladins telling one >to >commit wholesale genocide on an entire race of beings, but... If a Paladins >told >to by his deity, then he does it. >I don't imagine that he'd be too happy about it- but it would be expected as >an >act of faith. >People are not always in agreement with what they're ordered to do by their >deity, but they will do it if they're of enough faith. The deity (usually) >doesn't care >whether they like it or not, but whether they obey or not... > Actually thyis is a good one do the `right` thing and have trouble with you concience. Do the good thing and be stripped of your paladinhood and probably tortured and killed as a heretic. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:51:28 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >Do you give xp for good role-playing as suggested in the DMG? If so then >they should also be penalized for poor role-playing... > In early sessions usually not as there isn`t enough character definition. Later on sometimes, but anyway xp are due to having learnt something. Even if you`ve done something out of character if there is some other comeback you`ve learnt from the experience. Mind you basucally my problem is with rules lawyers (all lawyers actually) rather than alignment per se. If it`s just used as your usual guideline then it`s fine. It should be drawn in sand not carved in stone. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:53:24 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >>People are not always in agreement with what they're ordered to do by >their deity, but they will do it if they're of enough faith. The deity (usually) >>doesn't care whether they like it or not, but whether they obey or not... >Actually thyis is a good one do the `right` thing and have trouble with >you concience. Do the good thing and be stripped of your paladinhood and >probably tortured and killed as a heretic. I think it's the perfect moral dilemma of their "Lawful" versus their "Good" aspect of alignment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:58:49 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >We're talking about penalizing characters for a change of alignment- this >does >not usually (has never happened in any of my games) something that occurs >instantly in a single night of play... >Penalties for an alignment change are not unreasonable and are not given for >a simple human failing. Alignments are VERY USEFUL for a Novice, but I find >them VERY USEFUL (Both emphasis not shouting) as a "Professional" DM as >well. >Most people who have argued against alignments have little to no actual >under- >standing of the actual system. They have glanced over it, maybe read it, >given >it little thought, tried it, and decided that it wouldn't work without >playing with it at >all. (I did say MOST for a reason- note). > OK I`ll admit that it was poor GM calls, IMO, that caused most of my problems with alignment as a player. So rather than lose sight of the adventure in my own games due to annoying interruptions by the rules lawyers i dropped the whole thing in favour for my own slant which worked for me and my players. It`s the arguements that can arise because someone had a bad day at work and needs to let off steam that crop up that are still my memories of alignment. Apologies next time don`t really make up for the destruction of what usually was until then engrossing fun. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:59:21 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >>Do you give xp for good role-playing as suggested in the DMG? If so >>then they should also be penalized for poor role-playing... >In early sessions usually not as there isn`t enough character >definition. Later on sometimes, but anyway xp are due to having learnt >something. Even if you`ve done something out of character if there is >some other comeback you`ve learnt from the experience. Mind you >basucally my problem is with rules lawyers (all lawyers actually) rather >than alignment per se. If it`s just used as your usual guideline then >it`s fine. It should be drawn in sand not carved in stone. Ahh. Now this is agreed fully. I actually try to keep all of my rules "drawn in sand". I've found that every time I try to carve one in stone somebody writes something new that changes the ruling on me, or conflicts with one that I've already got... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #568 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, August 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 569 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - Arachne Prime Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:09:40 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Paul wrote: >OK I`ll admit that it was poor GM calls, IMO, that caused most of my >problems with alignment as a player. So rather than lose sight of the >adventure in my own games due to annoying interruptions by the rules >lawyers i dropped the whole thing in favour for my own slant which >worked for me and my players. It`s the arguements that can arise because >someone had a bad day at work and needs to let off steam that crop up >that are still my memories of alignment. Apologies next time don`t >really make up for the destruction of what usually was until then >engrossing fun. Now this makes a lot of sense :-) I would like to note for those who didn't catch the start of this thread that I'm not pushing for everyone to use the alignment system if you're not comfortable with it- but I'm asking that the statements and semi "demands" against them be dropped. Enough of those statements will make TSR drop a good thing and I'd just hate to see that happen... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:24:27 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? >Hi everyone. A lot of conversation on this list focuses on the history and >details of various Mystaran nations, cities, and sometimes even >better-known individuals. Where are people getting all this information? >For myself, I own the Rules Cyclopedia, the Wrath of the Immortals boxed >set, and Champions of Mystara. It is from these that I glean my knowledge >of the Known World. I know there's a lot of Basic Gazeteers out there that >have a wealth of information, but let's face it: most of the Basic Known >World stuff/Mystara material is out of print. Do a lot of you use the >Gazeteers for your lore, or are you instead referencing the AD&D Mystara >material, or a combination of both, or what? A lot of the intracacies >these "history discussions" are lost on me, and I suspect on others who >also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. Gazetteers are the Bible of Mystara. But theres all sorts of tidbits in all the modules. And there are often raging debates on the AD+D background info vs the D+D background info... :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:28:04 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]: How much do you specialize your game? >Does anybody use the rules 'as is' without modification. >hmmm, let me rephrase that: >Does anybody use different rules for different characters >e.g. 1) player A wishes to be a cleric of hate and have instead of turning >undead >be able to inspire hate in others (small change in attitude, only effect is >DM role-playing) Well, I have an immense list of specialty priests with nifty powers. Which is kindof what your saying. That sort of thing already exists - im thinking of the Nithia HW gaz, with the rulz on the various Immortals worshipped there. >(as opposed to in D&D all clerics have the same powers) >and 2) player B wants no spell book she'd rather be able to summon some >elementals >that cause the spell effects. (note that the elementals can be >killed/banished, and she needs more time to cast a spell, and if she summons >more elementals than she is 'allowed' then she gets sucked into the >appropriate elemental plane) >(hey this is starting to sound interesting, perhaps I should expand this >idea) Well, in a word, no I guess. However, there are kits out there that do that sort of thing. The character you describe could be a Witch (they gain magical power from spirits they commune with), a Ghul Lord (they channel negative energy through their bodies to shape the spells they cast) or (i'm not sure here) a sha'ir - who use genies. There is a LOT of stuff out there (the main reason ppl gripe about AD+D is that there is too much :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:22:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Many people often use the "one man's traitor [or terrorist, or whatever] is another man's freedom fighter" to excuse whatever behavior is in question. Conversly, others (rightly, IMO) assert that "no good can come from doing evil" and/or that the ends do *not* justify the means. Both arguments are valid, but not nessisarily for the reasons that either proponent recognizes. For example, I think that most of us could agree that assassination, based on general principles, is wrong. However, most of us would also admire Count von Staffenburg. Are we then inconsistant? Moral relativists? Not nessissarily. What is at stake is not only one "general principle", but a whole series of (sometimes competing) general principles. PCs kill in games because it's fun and unreal (which doesn't mean that outside the game we support mass murder as a "entertaining" exercise). *Characters* kill for a variety of reasons, but lawful and/or good ones kill for "justified*" reasons: one could say because the "good" of their actions outweighs the "bad" (Kill a tyrant, like the Shadow Lord of Denagoth, to save good folk from being slaughtered and/or ending up under his tyranny). As a general rule, killing is "bad", but adventurers are in the "killing business" because compeating goods (especially in games) outweigh the negative aspects of their actions. *IRL arguments, I.E. by pacifists, could be put forth that no killing is ever "justified", but we're talking for *game* purposes here, not IRL philosophies. However, I would be hard pressed to come up with a justification that slaughtering a villiage of unarmed pesants in Denagoth by our hero's would be a "good" or "lawful" act. Similarly, leading "terror squads" into Alphatia (a nation hardly ruled by a "Stalinist" type tyrant) and targeting innocent people would be a justified act, even if one could win the war quicker (such methods are used by villians, for reasons of expedience, in games: not by the heroic). A truely honorable/lawful/heroic/good character would come up with a more creative way to achieve the same end, or at least to *attempt* to achieve the same end (especially since, at the time, one can't *know* that your "terror squads" will end the war quicker than if you don't use them: or perhaps they will, by so inflaming the sentiments of the Alphatian spellcasters that they "nuke" Glantri sooner rather than later). The very a priori indeterminacy means that any number of methods, some more "good" than others, can be employed to try to achieve the same goals (blowing up armories at night, perhaps, to strike at Alphatian logistical/supply capacity, instead of killing innocents). You can't *know* if either method will be effective, but a "good" character will attempt the "better" alternative. Oh, and: would assassiating Eriadna be "justified"? No, for several reasons, the most important being that Eriadna wasn't the "cause" of the war, and "eliminating" her from the picture would not help the cause of "good" (by ending the war), and could (and eventually. . . .) lead to a "worse" ruler (Zandor, anyone) willing to use methods that Eriadna would not (I.E. turning Glantri City into a "Lake of Glass"). A "Shadow Lord of Denagoth" type tyrant, on the other hand, can and should be targeted, because he is the origin of the problem to begin with (the "focus of evil", a la Sauron). The general consiquences of "dubious" methods should also discourage "Neutral" types, if they are sufficiently intelligent: "escalating" the war by using such methods could encourage your enemy to emulate you, and go "one step beyond". In fact, it is *more* likely that a powerful nation like Alphatia would be "stired" to respond with "Total War" rather than surrender in the face of "wicked attacks against our people". Thus, Glantrian "heros" use "terror strikes" at their peril. The response by Alphatia could be, from a Glantrian perspective. . . .unwelcomed. . . . .. . . . . *Glantri City turned to ash*. (btw, this is a basic strategic concept: some methods, even if "effective" at lower levels [tactical, operational, theater strategy, etc.], "vertically" may be totally negated, or even counter-productive, at the level of "Grand Strategy". I.E. the "terror squads", which could be bad diplomatically [other nations look on Glantri unfavorably], and result in a response by your oponent that is "undesirable". Perhaps the foremost example of this is the Japanese strike on Pearl Harbor, which was a complete tactical and operational success, a partial theater success [missed the Carriers], but a disaster at the level of Grand Strategy, and the act that doomed them, because getting the United States into the war in that way guaranteed a Japanese defeat. Similarly, "terror strikes" on generally apathetic Alphatia could create such a response that it makes Glantri's situation far worse than it is now, encouraging the Alphatians to mobilize all their power to wipe Glantri off the map. Bad idea, not just because it is "morally wrong", but it is strategically wrong.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:34:46 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 Hello, there! What important NPCs were ther in Alfheim AC 1005? Which would favr and which would oppose sending troops to aid Darokin against the Master? Thanks. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:34:39 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex Hi! I'm beginning work on an adventure for my campaign and for it I need some information on the Carnifex. 1. Who were they? 2. What sort of powers did they have? 3. What module do they come from? Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:39:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) At 20.03 12/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: >Well, ESP only reads surface thoughts, ie only what they are thinking at >that time. Probably "scum, get out of my head". I think he doesn't know of being under ESP. >If you interrogate the >victim with the aid of an ESP spell, they get a save vs spells with a +4 >bonus to prevent any useful info from being learned. Where's this from? Glantrian police officers (and my players) usually interrogate victims with the aid of ESP. Problems usually arires when NPCs use ESP on PCs, or even worst when one PC uses ESP on another PC... >Besides, in a place like Glantri there are ways around esp... If ESP is too >much of a problem bring in the oD+D reverse, mindmask. (Or use >non-detection). Yes, except that a good police officer will usually take care to remove all your magical items and dispel all your protective spells before interrogating you with ESP. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:09:46 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >>Well, ESP only reads surface thoughts, ie only what they are thinking at >>that time. Probably "scum, get out of my head". > >I think he doesn't know of being under ESP. True. But if hes just walking down the street, hes probably thinking stuff like "By the Immortals, its hot today" and "I could really murder a good roast boar" and "Wonder where the nearest toilet is?" Besides - to cast a spell u have to be in direct, unobstructed line of the sight to the target. Also, you have to be jumping up and down, waving your hands around, and generally being rather obvious. The guy is going to know! Besides, usually using magical divination like that is illegal. I say in Karameikos that any form of magical divination is assault - NO exceptions. Keep in mind that divination used for law enforcement is only as reliable as the diviner. And as most Mystaran rulers are nonspellcasters, they probably dont want to get too dependent on the court wizard.. Or a motley crew who hail from Threshold, either... >>If you interrogate the >>victim with the aid of an ESP spell, they get a save vs spells with a +4 >>bonus to prevent any useful info from being learned. > >Where's this from? >Glantrian police officers (and my players) usually interrogate victims with >the aid of ESP. AD+D... >Problems usually arires when NPCs use ESP on PCs, or even worst when one PC >uses ESP on another PC... Now that is a problem. But if u think about it - their surface thoughts will generally be of little value anyway... And again, I would say its assault. Some other guy in the party wants to cast spells at me? He can **** off! Does he want me to stick a sword through him? I didnt think so... I'm reminded of the bit at the end of the Psionics book - how telepaths are generally hated and reviled (the paragraph entitled "Burn Him!"). Reading minds is a total violation of privacy. And should be treated as such, by anyone. >>Besides, in a place like Glantri there are ways around esp... If ESP is too >>much of a problem bring in the oD+D reverse, mindmask. (Or use >>non-detection). > >Yes, except that a good police officer will usually take care to remove all >your magical items and dispel all your protective spells before >interrogating you with ESP. Well, in Glantri, you have a problem. But then, such is magic! If you cant hack ESP in your campaign, then I STRONGLY suggest that those 1000 Alphatian wizards disappear along with it... Otherwise there is far worse things around... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:30:05 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >What alignment would "Dirty Harry" Callahan be considered? (and I mean the >dude as depicted in the actual films). I'm not sure he'd fit neatly into >any specific alignment. > I'd say he's close to NG or CG - he catches criminals, which is a Good thing, but he is willing to unofficially beat up some guys in order to succeed. Admittedly, I haven't seen too many of the movies. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:20:51 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Arachne Prime Can someone tell me the power level and other general stuff about Arachne Prime, the Night Spider, assuming such material is available? The reason why I'm asking all those things about Immortals will be revealed in a couple of days :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:22:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Brian Courtemanche asked where people here get the information from. 1) Gazetteers. As others mentioned these are the most detailed and well made products for Mystara. 2) Hollow World boxed set, Champions of Mystara boxed set. These contain alot of useful information. HW is a goldmine if you want historical information 3) Modules. Some information can be found here, but these should not be your first priority. 4) AD&D boxes. these are more or less reprints of the old gazetteers. 5) Almanacs. These are where you find information about what happens after 1010 6) Rulebooks; Old boxed sets, Rules Cyclopedia and WotI. WotI is the best of these, though the others, especially the cyclopedia and the expert box contain some information about the Known World. 7)Red Steel boxed sets. These are good products which can be downloaded for free from TSR's website. 8) Web resources. There is quite a bit of information out there. If you want timelines, there are two Great Timelines which can be found at Cthulhudrew and thorfinn Taits homepages. Also there are products at TSRs site under the Mystara and Savage Coast pages. Check out my Homepage for links to many of the mystara-sites out there Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:24:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, paul dooley wrote: > > >I dont think Arachne Prime is, in the adventure. I think shes just > >banished. (I could be wrong here...) > > > IIrc if you kill her the last time she`s dead `cos its home plane, I`ll > check asnd see tonight. Can an Immortal be ressurected? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:42:48 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 >What important NPCs were ther in Alfheim AC 1005? Which would favr and >which would oppose sending troops to aid Darokin against the Master? > Hmm, are you getting some ideas? :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:35:52 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Maybe we need to get away from the alignment discussion, so here's a project I thought of... I am planning to detail the various Immortals in the format of FR Faiths & Avatars - that is, providing more details on their followers and dogmas. For this, I am using the following modified F&A template: Name of Immortal (Common Titles and Epithets) Power Ranking of Plane Name, Alignment (both D&D and AD&D) PORTFOLIO: What the Immortal is interested in. ALIASES: Any regional names and such. DOMAIN: Plane/Layer/Realm, for those who use Planescape cosmology. DATE OF ASCENSION: Year when Immortality was achieved. SPONSOR: The Immortal's sponsor, if any. ALLIES: FOES: SYMBOL: WAL: Worshippers' alignments. The Church CLERGY: What kind of servants the Immortal has (priests, paladins, etc.) CAL: Clergy's alignments. WEAPONS: Allowed weapons. ARMOR: Allowed armor. MAJOR SPHERES: MINOR SPHERES: GRANTED POWERS: BONUS PROFS: Bonus NWPs gained by a clergy member. DOGMA: The Immortal's beliefs and teachings. DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES: What the priests do. IMPORTANT CEREMONIES/HOLY DAYS: MAJOR CENTERS OF WORSHIP: Where the Immortal is worshipped. AFFILIATED ORDERS: Any other religious orders associated with the Immortal. PRIESTLY VESTMENTS: Ceremonial garments of priests and other clergy. ADVENTURING GARB: Adventuring garments of the clergy. Special Spells Any unique spells granted by the Immortal. Be warned that some of the information will be non-canon. I have also used to some extent the info on Immortals available on the net (particularly the AD&D conversions and Mystaros's list of Outer Planes). I also encourage other people to develop Immortals according to this template, since if I do everything it will be a *long* time before it is finished. :) My first Immortal will be Al-Kalim, presented in a separate post. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:43:10 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Al-Kalim (Suleiman al-Kalim) Demipower of Arcadia, LN/Initiate, L PORTFOLIO: Dream of the Desert Garden, scholarship, tolerance ALIASES: Kalman (Sind) DOMAIN: Arcadia/Buxenus/Paradise DATE OF ASCENSION: 970 AC SPONSOR: Protius ALLIES: Farath (Protius), 'Udnan (Odin) FOES: Al-Fakish (Alphaks), Quranah (Ranivorus), Rushtam (Rathanos), Thanath (Thanatos) SYMBOL: Silhouette of a palm tree in a desert with a moon rising behind. WAL: Any The Church CLERGY: Priests, dervishes (see GAZ2), paladins CAL: LG, LN, NG, N WEAPONS: Standard, plus scimitar ARMOR: Standard MAJOR SPHERES: All, Combat, Creation, Divination, Healing, Law, Protection, Time, War, Wards MINOR SPHERES: Animal, Elemental (all except fire), Plant, Weather GRANTED POWERS: Turn Undead, Create Food and Water 1/day BONUS PROFS: Bureaucracy DOGMA: Al-Kalim's most important goal is to transform the Alasiyan desert into a lush forest; his Ylari followers are working towards that end. Al-Kalim approves of both warriors and scholars, and his priests strive to master both professions. The faithful are required to follow several guiding principles: reverencing the Immortals, reverencing one's fellow man, reverencing wisdom and scholarship, pilgrimage, the dream of justice and honor, and the dream of the garden in the desert. These principles are listed at length in the Nahmeh, the holy book written by Al-Kalim describing his quest for Immortality. DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES: Priests of Al-Kalim have different activities depending on where they are located. In Ylaruam, they of course act as the guiding force for the people, providing education and military leadership. They lead the faithful in daily prayers and act in many government functions. However, priests are not subject to any additional requirements beyond what is required of lay followers. Standard priests can be either Prayer Leaders (those who guide the faithful) or Itinerents (adventuring priests who spread the faith). There are also Dervishes, hermits who live alone in the desert to observe the natural world and learn from it. Followers of Al-Kalim in Ylaruam are divided into two factions. The Preceptors are more open to outside ideas and interaction with foreigners. The Kin faction is more conservative and hostile to outsiders, and considers city-dwellers inferior to desert nomads. IMPORTANT CEREMONIES/HOLY DAYS: There are few holy days, the only one being the 24th of Jumada'l Awwal (Yarthmont), which is the Day of Ascension (marking Al-Kalim's ascension to the rank of Immortal). On the other hand, there are several ceremonies and rituals, as prescribed in the guiding principles; the most important are daily prayer at sunrise and sunset and a fast from sunrise to sunset on days of the full moon. MAJOR CENTERS OF WORSHIP: Ylaruam is the most important worshipper base for Al-Kalim, since all Ylari people follow his teachings. With the help of Itinerents, his faith has spread to other lands such as Ierendi and Saragon on the Savage Coast. In Sind, Al-Kalim has a small following as Kalman, patron of vegetation and Asanda river. AFFILIATED ORDERS: The Military Orders of the Eternal Way are open to all True Believers. The Orders act as defenders of Ylaruam and the Eternal Truth. These include Order of the Pike (for heavy infantry), Order of the Arrow (for mounted archers), Order of the Spell (for mounted skirmisher mages), Order of the Mace (for war priests), and Order of the Lance (consisting of the finest members of the other orders). PRIESTLY VESTMENTS: For the most part, priests of Al-Kalim do not dress differently from other faithful, with the exception of displaying their holy symbols somewhere on their person. ADVENTURING GARB: Likewise, adventuring priests tend to dress in a practical manner, but display their symbols, even in areas where is might be dangerous to do so. Special Spells Detect Water (1st-level) Poetic Inspiration (2nd-level) Truthtelling (3rd-level) Know Destiny (3rd-level) All of the above spells are described in GAZ2. In addition, dervishes receive their own special selection of spells, which includes both priest and druid spells, as well as some new ones. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:44:52 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 At 10.34 13/08/98 -0500, Aaron E Nowack wrote: >What important NPCs were ther in Alfheim AC 1005? Which would favr and >which would oppose sending troops to aid Darokin against the Master? I would say: all the Clanmasters, King Doriath, General Gilfronden and Captain Brightsword. Gilfronden: he's a shadow elf spy and he knows that the shadow elves will strike "soon" (i.e. in a couple of years), so I guess he will favor sending troops to weaken the Alfheim army. Besides the shadow elves probably prefer to fight the surface elves, rather than the Master. Doriath: he is friendly to Darokin and he relies on Gilfronden for military matters, so I would say he would favor sending troops. Brightsword: Red Arrows are always concerned about the safety of Alfheim, so Brightsword would probably oppose sending troops and would prefer to fight the Master on their home ground if absolutely necessary. The Clanmasters: here it depends. The reclusive clans (Feadiel and Mealidil IIRC) would probably say no, same goes for Red Arrows. Erendyl would side with Doriath. Grunalf and Longrunner I don't know. Chossum, it depends on the degree of SE spies there're among them IYC, but I would say they favor sending troops just for trading reasons. IIRC in the Timeline of the Alfheim Invasion I wrote with Herve I mentioned Cpt. Brightsword as being the leader of the Alfheim force that was sent to fight the Master. - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:30:29 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) At 20.09 13/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: >>I think he doesn't know of being under ESP. > >True. But if hes just walking down the street, hes probably thinking stuff >like "By the Immortals, its hot today" and "I could really murder a good >roast boar" and "Wonder where the nearest toilet is?" Or something about a nice lady that is walking nearby :-) > >Besides - to cast a spell u have to be in direct, unobstructed line of the >sight to the target. Also, you have to be jumping up and down, waving your >hands around, and generally being rather obvious. The guy is going to know! Sure. One of my PCs is fond of this kind of spells. If the target has been already captured, than there's no problem in tying him up and asking questions while using ESP in front of him. Otherwise, when he wants to use ESP secretly, he hides himself, casts ESP and than gets back so that he can have a clear LOS to the target before the spell expires. > >Besides, usually using magical divination like that is illegal. I say in >Karameikos that any form of magical divination is assault - NO exceptions. In Karameikos yes. >>Problems usually arires when NPCs use ESP on PCs, or even worst when one PC >>uses ESP on another PC... > >Now that is a problem. But if u think about it - their surface thoughts >will generally be of little value anyway... Yes, but if you cast ESP when asking the right question the surface thought might be interesting. >And again, I would say its >assault. Some other guy in the party wants to cast spells at me? He can >**** off! Does he want me to stick a sword through him? I didnt think >so... I know, but it's always bad when the PCs start quarreling between themselves... and sometimes go on quarrelling IRL :-( - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #569 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, August 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 570 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Stuff] Re: [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Re: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - Arachne Prime RE: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:52:18 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Stuff] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: Stuff Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:57:40 -0400 Alphatia - the Suppression Wars (AY 774 - AY 1515) >From a lecture on Alphatian history at the University of Wendar: "Though it is true that Alphatia is a mighty empire, and that it has dominated the east for many centuries, there are certain...aspects...of that empire's history that its rulers would rather remain unknown, for reasons that will be clear soon enough! I am not speaking today of evil Immortals, or of the even more powerful "Outer Beings", said by some in hushed whispers to exist outside of known space and time, and in the vaults between the stars. No, for we have already discussed the horrible fate of Orzafeth in a previous lecture, and your assigned readings are more than clear on that score. "What I am going to discuss today is a little-known chapter in Alphatian history, of a time not long after the Landfall, some two thousand years ago. While the diplomats and expatriates of that proud empire go to great pains to portray their nation as strongly individualistic, but unified in purpose, culture, and government, recent investigations and research have shown us that life on the Alphatian mainland has not always been so harmonious. Note that I speak not of Bellissaria, populated as it is by the more conservative elements of Alphatian society, but of the motherland, Greater Alphatia. For is it not true that the varied kingdoms of that island continent are distinct from each other in ways that are lacking in many areas settled much later by the Alphatians? "Not long after the initial settlement of the island continent of Alphatia, and the indigenous Yanifey peoples were driven north and west by the advancing Alphatians, a splinter group developed within Alphatian society. This split was quite similar to that which developed between Kerothar and Aasla not long after Landfall, which led to the founding of the "twin capitals" - Aasla and Sundsvall. Led by a charismatic Alphatian wizard named Jarastharram, a great number of Alphatians left the newly-founded city of Sundsvall for greener pastures up north, where, they believed, they might live free from the tyranny of the growing empire. "Jarastharram, you see, was an idealist in every sense of the word, according to known records. He followed the individualistic credo of the Alphatians to the letter - in fact, he preached anarchy as the ideal system of government, with the people coming together in times of need not because they were commanded to do so; but because they honestly cared for their fellows. Whether or not his ideal government would truly have been an anarchy will remain a matter of conjecture, but these are the facts as they stand. He was also an opponent of the long-held belief that only wizard should rule. Though a spellcaster himself, he believed that all people, no matter who they might be, or what their talents were, had something to offer. He had thus determined to found his own realm beyond the borders of Alphatian-held lands, so that he and his followers could lead the lives they chose. "Regardless, it was roughly 500 years after the Alphatian Landfall, or BC 500 by the Thyatian calendar, when Jarastharram led his followers north, beyond what is now the Elfripple River which marks the northern frontier of reclusive Shiye-Lawr, which had been settled by those elves a mere 250-odd years at that time. Though the darkened woods that would become Blackheart they crossed, losing no one, for those woods had not yet become the Ugly Wood, and were still under the rule of the elf-prince Illashiye, of whom we will speak at a later date. "Finally, the followers of Jarastharram, or the "Jarasthamites", as they called themselves, came upon cold, damp plains, broken only by the Kerothar Mountains to the west, and scattered forests and lakes. This land would one day become Frisland, but in that time it was the last stronghold of the Yanifey on the island continent. Surviving accounts say they were a people fallen on hard times. Hunting was poor, and maby were suffering from disease. Taking pity on the people who had been wronged by the Alphatians, Jarastharram ordered his followers who were proficient in magic to tend to the wounded, and to see to it that their lives were made easier for the time being. Using their powers, the wizards made small stretches of land bloom with fruit-laden trees, so it is said. "Years passed, and many Yanifey soon joined the newcomers in their efforts. Small towns were built across the plains and in the hills, and the island of Qeodhar to the north was discovered, though it was already inhabited by fair-skinned people of Antalian stock. This island kingdom, Ystmarhavn, made peace with the Jarasthamites, and traded with them. Thus it was that, in the Alphatian year 686, as little-known records in Sundsvall have it, Jarastharram proclaimed the kingdom of Argonath. "It was purely by chance that I came across those records in a small library in Sundsvall, but their sheer level of detail made it clear to me that they were not to be doubted. The Alphatians of the south, after hearing this proclamation, spied on Argonath continuously. I came across detailled maps of that kingdom, which at its height stretched from modern Frisland in the west to Ambur in the east, along with a sizeable piece of northwestern Foresthome. Its capital, Argondor, lay where the city of Shiell in Frisland does today, though of that older city no trace remains. So an uneasy peace lasted from Argonath's founding in AY 686 to the outbreak of war in AY 774. "The actual causes of the first war are unclear. Whether it was territorial dispute in modern Foresthome, or accusations of raiding that led to a preemptive strike on the part of Alphatia, the one fact that remains clear is that some 35,000 soldiers crossed the Rainbow River in AY 774, and proceeded to loot and burn many frontier villages. The journey had been made all the easier since the fall of the elvish realm of Illmaryl in AY 734, when Illashiye was killed under mysterious circumstances, leading to a panicked abandonment of that land for Shiye-Lawr. No known records exist to explain to departure of those elves, none of whom explained the reason for their flight. The only known fact is that with the fall of Illmaryl, the one buffer state between Argonath and the rest of Alphatia was no more. "Within weeks, the massed force had ringed Argondor, and it was only through a concerted effort on the part of the defenders that the siege was broken, though it cost them dearly. In the aftermath, Argonath sued for peace, for it had lost some 15,000 people in that conflict, according to fragmentary records. In exchange for withdrawing, Alphatia was granted the Argonathian province of Seratha, now a part of Foresthome, as well as all territory south of the Rainbow River. It was in the wake of this treaty that the kingdom of Blackheart was formed. "Though it is rumoured among some historians that Alphatia would have invaded once again in AY 804, the goal of weakening the northern kingdom was made all the easier with the disappearance of Jarastharram in that year. None knew where he went, but afterwards the kingdom lost much of its cohesiveness. Some began to feel that the Alphatian menace had passed, and others thought they should rule. Over the next 100 years, a series of minor civil wars wracked the faltering kingdom, after which two strong rulers emerged, Orondor and Saldamara, who divided Argonath into two. "Orondor ruled the fledgling kingdom of Assambura in the east, roughly comprising what is now Ambur and northern Ar. His was a warlike kingdom, which, according to existing reports, frequently raided the Alphatian settlements to the south. Saldamara, the eldest daughter of Jarastharram, ruled the much-reduced kingdom of Argonath in the west, comprising the remainder of the territory. So an uneasy peace existed between the two northern kingdoms, but such it was not to remain. "Orondor has apparently made secret deals with the Alphatians, that, in exchange for ceasing his raiding, he would not interfere if Alphatia invaded Argonath - on the condition that, so long as his family lived, Assambura would remain independent. Alphatia readily agreed to this, and proceeded to make deals with the jarls of Ystmarhavn to trade with Alphatia instead, in exchange for better trade goods. Thus, by AY 971, the stage had been set for a final push to conquer much of the north. "The actual invasion took place in AY 977, when a force of 80,000 Alphatian soldiers, as well as 20 skyships, crossed the Rainbow River to lay waste to Argondor. In this they were successful, for the entire city was razed in the bombardments, and almost all of the survivors were driven north. Having established a safe landing point for their forces, the Alphatians massed their troops there and fanned out into the countryside, conquering towns and villages, and interrogating those they captured for any information about the Argonathian battle plans. The forces of Argonath fought back, but they were simply too few. Outnumbered four to one, many surrendered to the invaders, and were in fact treated rather well. "It is a matter of conjecture whether or not the Alphatians were overly brutal in their conquest, though the information I have acquired seems to indicate that they were not. Suffice it to say that after two years of pitched battles followed by guerrilla warfare, Argonath once more sued for peace. In a surviving copy of the resulting treaty in AY 980, Argonath ceded what is now the southern portions of Ar and Frisland, and renounced all claims to mining rights in the Kerothar Mountains. Saldamara still lived, though she ruled her fallen kingdom from the new capital of Ydroyas. "During this time the warriors of Ystmarhavn were not idle. Over the years they had traded more with the Alphatians, and they saw them to be the rising power of the region. Losing respect for the weakened Argonathians, they proceeded to raid Argonath's northern ports around AY 1000, bringing back a great deal of plunder with them, and further driving Argonath to despair in the process. Assambura to the east was not idle, carrying out minor border wars of its own against Argonath. "Life for the Alphatians in the newly-conquered northern realms was not easy. The newly-established kingdom of Frisland was plagued by monsters from Blackheart to the south, and scattered bands of Argonathian rebels. Many homesteads were put to the torch in those days, and soon the people of Frisland walled themselves in fortified towns, seldom venturing far from home. "By AY 1200, Assambura itself had fallen on hard times, riven with internal strife and suffering from raids by Ystmarhavn, who had become indiscriminate in their raiding. When the last surviving descendant of Orondor was killed in AY 1213 in just such a raid, Assambura fell into anarchy. Refugees fled the kingdom, spreading tales of woe. Few people protested when Alphatia, in AY 1215, sent 20,000 soldiers into Assambura to bring order to the region, and fight off the Ystmarhavn raiders. The following year Assambura was annexed to the empire, and it was divided into the kingdoms of Ambur and Ar. Ar was given a stretch of imperial territory that once belonged to Argonath, thus giving it its present shape. "The last of Argonath fell to Alphatia in AY 1405, when, on the orders of the emperor, the territory of that kingdom was secured against further incursions from the Ystmarhavn raiders, who had by this time become a considerable menace. This invasion was also carried out ostensibly to protect the people of Argonath, who were still of Alphatian blood, and were no less deserving of the empire's protection. It was from these newly-acquired lands that the kingdom of Frisland assumed its present borders in AY 1432. "Guerrilla activities did not cease in Frisland, though, until AY 1515, when a young bandit leader by the name of Almarath was captured, and deported to Esterhold. Almarath, until his death in AY 1572 of natural causes, claimed to be the last heir of Argonath. "And now, students, you know something more of the history of Alphatia. I trust you found it interesting, and I shall expect some of you to write some interesting papers on this topic. Very well, you know your readings - class dismissed!" - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:03:02 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex Aaron Nowack wrote: > >Hi! > >I'm beginning work on an adventure for my campaign and for it I need some >information on the Carnifex. > (pulls on gloves) Looks like a job for me... > >1. Who were they? > Basically, the Carnifex were highly intelligent saurial creatures (not unlike 7-8' tall allosauri) with large brains and roughly humanoid shapes (and opposable thumbs). Ages ago, before Blackmoor, even, they challenged the supremacy of the Immortals with their foul magics, for which they were imprisoned by those selfsame Immortals in various prison dimensions for eternity - in the Pits of Banishment, where many had gone mad and died. They were capable of great feats of both clerical and wizardly magic. There is also a warrior caste present among them. M3 says they were attempting some sort of magical experiment which the Immortals are believed to have caused to fail, thus trapping them. > >2. What sort of powers did they have? > As above, they possessed clerical and wizardly magic, and during their heyday they likely possessed spells unknown in modern Mystara. Aside from that, no other powers are listed. > > >3. What module do they come from? > They come from module M3 "Twilight Calling". > - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:22:18 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Hi Aleksei This looks very interesting. I have for a while been working on a project on the Church of Thyatis. I have structured it somewhat differently from you though. In my writeups, I've tried to decribe each religion(containing several immortals) rather than the individuals. I do however have alot of information about the Immortals too. Most of it is, however from mortal's point of view, not thr truth as such, but myths surrounding each immortal. I will see if any of it can be translated into the structure you have suggested though. :) looking forward to seeing more of this. btw: you do know that spheres and powers for each immortal is available at Stan's site? > Be warned that some of the information will be non-canon. I have also used > to some extent the info on Immortals available on the net (particularly the > AD&D conversions and Mystaros's list of Outer Planes). I like this. If possible you could mention the non-canon sources? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:41:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim > PORTFOLIO: Dream of the Desert Garden, scholarship, tolerance > Tolerance? Of, say, "foreign infidel devils"? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:42:15 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project In a message dated 98-08-13 18:18:21 EDT, you write: << I also encourage other people to develop Immortals according to this template, since if I do everything it will be a *long* time before it is finished. :) My first Immortal will be Al-Kalim, presented in a separate post. >> Just a thought... I have been using the Skills and Powers book to build "custom" priest characters depending on the immortal involved, I personally think that its a fairly balanced system. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:47:47 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:42:48 +0300 "Aleksei Andrievski" writes: >>What important NPCs were ther in Alfheim AC 1005? Which would favr >and >>which would oppose sending troops to aid Darokin against the Master? >> >Hmm, are you getting some ideas? :) > Nope. I should have though. :) Actually its for a WotI campaign I'm running, and the only info I have on Alfheim is RC, since the PWAs understandbly didn't have an entry... Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:48:42 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim NPCS AC 1005 On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:44:52 +0200 Fabrizio Paoli writes: >At 10.34 13/08/98 -0500, Aaron E Nowack wrote: > >>What important NPCs were ther in Alfheim AC 1005? Which would favr >and >>which would oppose sending troops to aid Darokin against the Master? > >I would say: all the Clanmasters, King Doriath, General Gilfronden and >Captain Brightsword. > [snip] Thank you very much. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:48:12 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? In a message dated 98-08-13 09:45:16 EDT, you write: << and I suspect on others who > also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. >> Thought I might pass on a store in my area which still has some *new* (still unopened) Gazeteers and some of the HWR books (also I think I saw a copy of Champions of Mystara in there). I think the owner would be willing to ship the stuff, since he has had most of it since he purchased the store. Fantastic Games and Toys (425) 775-4871 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:04:09 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Arachne Prime In a message dated 98-08-13 15:16:14 EDT, you write: << Can someone tell me the power level and other general stuff about Arachne Prime, the Night Spider, assuming such material is available? The reason why I'm asking all those things about Immortals will be revealed in a couple of days :) >> It depends if you are going by the old rules of the immortals or the new WOTI. M5 was written during the era of the old rules, and some of the rules utilized in that module were removed when WOTI was created (especially the truename rules). She is listed there as a 20 HD creature, which would make a her a 6th level immortal (initiate) under the new rules. The way she is utilized in M5 however would also need to be modified in some form or another considering the limitations on immortals on the prime plane imposed by the other immortals. As far as her special abilities I would probably use: Control Undead, Poison Sting, mystic special abilities, height increase. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:04:18 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. how about: Lawful: The group first, the individual second Chaotic: the individual first, the group second Neutral: me first, then I don't care e.g. in the case of someone wanting to leave your army that is about to be attacked: The Lawful character will say he must stay (since then the group will have a better chance to survive) The chaotic will say you can leave (Since it is what he wants to do) The neutral will only care if he's staying with the army (and then say that he should stay). Christian Götschi > -----Original Message----- > From: paul dooley [SMTP:ezaqwazy@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 5:19 PM > To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Law vs. Chaos: philosophical standpoint. > Simply put: Lawful, Them first me second > Chaotic, Me first them second > Neutral, Probably as Lawful unless I get put out too > much > Well that`s how my daughter worked it out! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:05:13 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >Yes, but if you cast ESP when asking the right question the surface thought >might be interesting. If he knows hes being ESPed he is probably just reciting insults in his head (I guess thats what the save vs spell at +4 is for). ESP is really not such an incredibly useful spell. Priests have far more potent divination - from augury right up to Commune. If someone is attempting to extract info using ESP i would say there is an immediate save at +4. If the spell is being used to help with some sort of interaction (being able to win an argument better because you can anticipate his arguments) I would say that that is a better use of the spell, more in line with its capabilities. It just depends on how lenient u are with the spell. Like any other possible uberability. But I definitely dont think u should get rid of a spell like that. I'm proud of any mages IMC who make use of things like enchantment and divination. All too often mages kit up with fireballs and magic missiles, which takes a lot away from what is probably the most interesting class in the game. >I know, but it's always bad when the PCs start quarreling between >themselves... and sometimes go on quarrelling IRL :-( Thats kindof worse. When I'm playing myself, I consider quarreling to be almost part of the game - as long as it doesnt stop anyone from enjoying themselves. There really isnt a great deal the DM can do about it - except perhaps make the adventures harder so the PCs are forced to stick together. (That last comment reminds me of Top Secret. That game is just so lethal that PCs absolutely MUST work as a team - otherwise they will all die. ) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:11:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Rob said: >Well, in Glantri, you have a problem. But then, such is magic! If you >cant hack ESP in your campaign, then I STRONGLY suggest that those 1000 >Alphatian wizards disappear along with it... Otherwise there is far worse >things around... Funny you should mention that...but those 1000 Alphatian Wizards wont be around for much longer IMC :) (Another good reason for sinking Alphatia! - I'm ruling that most of them are older than their natural life span. They wont care about the war at all until over half of them drop dead...then shortly after when they do get round to doing something they sink...1000 is too much. 1 is scary enough) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:49:00 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Carnifex At 10.34 13/08/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi! > > >I'm beginning work on an adventure for my campaign and for it I need some >information on the Carnifex. Easy! Look at this article in my site and you'll discover the mysteries of the Carnifex: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/carnifex.html >1. Who were they? >2. What sort of powers did they have? >3. What module do they come from? Everything is in that file... :) DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:51:28 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >At 09:48 AM 8/12/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >> >>> >>> But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do >>something? >>> (That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) >>> >>That's question #9: >> >>9. Your diety tells you to walk on hot coals. You promplty: >> a. practice shouting "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!" > >Hmm...this actually kind of interesting. A good diety would probably not >let you >come to any harm because of this,(test of faith) or would either have a >really >good reason for doing this. On the other hand, an evil deity would >probably >just want to see you suffer. SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THE GODS ARE MODELLED ON ANCIENT RELIGION, A GOOD GOD WOULDN'T TEST A TRUE BELIEVER THIS WAY UNLESS IT SERVED THE PURPOSE OF CONVERTING OTHERS TO THE RELIGION. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:07 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >>This talk about penalising xp for acting out of character doesn`t hold >>water. RW analogy is when this happens people`s reactions to that person >>change but with two major variables how out of character it was and how >>widely publicised. This is a ROLEPLAYING challenge to be overcome, not >>an excuse to go wipe out some more defenceless, relatively, humanoids. > > >Do you give xp for good role-playing as suggested in the DMG? If so then >they should also be penalized for poor role-playing... > >Later. > >Jesse. >vanquer@softhome.net >ICQ. 8004143 > >* HERE! HERE! HOWEVER, BAD ROLE-PLAYING OFTEN RESULTS IN OTHER NEGATIVES, SUCH AS NO EXPERIENCE, NO TREASURE, AND SOMETIMES DEATH. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:00:20 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - OTP- My Alignments mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >Harold Johnson wrote: >>Jesse, >>NEUTRALs believe that the needs of the situation and personal survival >>should outweigh social moraes. This is true selfishness, rationalizing >>that the goal justifies whatever means are necessary to reach the goal. > > >Hello Harold. I was really hoping to hear from you Frank or Bruce on this >one. >I could not for the life of me justify True Neutrals and everything that >I've seen >in print has pointed at "balancing" the alignments- I hated that concept >completely. > >So, a question, how does a CN not fit into the TN format that you >described >above? > >Later. > >Jesse. > >* OOOH! JESSE, YOU ASK THE TOUGH ONES. OKAY, IMO A CHAOTIC NEUTRAL FELLOW IS MORE INTERESTED IN IGNORING LAWS AND SOCIAL MORAES THAN FINDING A WAY TO TURN THEM TO HIS ADVANTAGE. A TRUE NEUTRAL FINDS WAYS TO USE THE CARDS ON THE TABLE TO HIS ADVANTAGE - -- USING THE MEANS AVAILABLE TO REACH HIS DESIRED ENDS, WHETHER THAT MEANS FOLLOWING LAWS OR BREAKING THEM AND RATIONALIZING WHY THE LAW WAS CORRUPT AND JUSTICE/BALANCE/SELF INTEREST WAS BETTER SERVED IN THIS MANNER. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:09:40 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >>I agree that a very common element in fantasy is good and evil, but I >>think marking each individual as either good or evil (or neutral) is no >>good. Sauron is perhaps absolute evil, but the rest of the characters >>chose between good and evil depending on which side they take in the war. >>Did Saaruman suddenly change alignment? What about Gollum? Gollum is >>interesting because he would be described as evil by some, yet he >>actually helps the good side in the end. Putting a CN or CE alignment of >>Gollum would totally destroy the elements that make him an interesting >>character. True, he did kill his brother Deagol to obtain the Ring, but >>there was still good in him. > >I'd say that Gollum was a CN (Maybe Harold's TN- have to give that one >more >thought), but the ring influenced him in an evil direction changing him to >CE > >For Saruman- yes he had a change in alignment, but it wasn't a "sudden" >change >it's not like he and Gandolf spoke with each other at regular intervals. >It >could have >been 5-10 years between their last visit and the one where he "captured" >Gandolf >in the tower. >It is very apparent, with a study of the books, that Saruman was a good >person at >one time, but his actions during the War of the Rings says that he wasn't >at >all good >by that point. > * I tend to agree that Gollum was more CN with evil tendancies in the end. It was not necessary for Gollum to be good in order to serve the purposes of Good. That's Fate or Destiny (which tends to have the interests of good at heart). Sauruman did undergo an alignment shift, from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil due to the horrors shown him through the Palantir. He came to believe that if the power was used by the "right" people it would no longer be evil. Speaking of alignment, in the original D&D game, alignment was divided into Law/Order, Neutrality, and Chaos. I always felt that most of the people of the world were somewhere in between, colored by working for the forces of Good or Evil. Often, I described characters as Lawful (tending toward evil) or Chaotic (tending toward good). The world and people are not black and white, that's what makes them interesting as characters. There should always be strengths and weaknesses, nobilities and flaws that can be exploited by the DM to tell a more well-rounded story. Harold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #570 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, August 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 571 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - Shouting Re: [MYSTARA] - Shouting [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box Vs: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Vs: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Re: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - Companion Set Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on True Neutral Re: [MYSTARA] - The Neutrals Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:12:46 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >>What alignment would "Dirty Harry" Callahan be considered? (and I mean >the >>dude as depicted in the actual films). I'm not sure he'd fit neatly into >>any specific alignment. > > >My take (and this is a difficult one- remembering that it's been forever >since I >watched Dirty Harry) on him would be LN. I'm not talking about following >"The >Law" here but following his own sort of "Honor Code" he acted very >consistently, >and held to Justice very strongly although his methods were a bit on the >"brutal" >side probably keeping him from being Good. OTOH, he didn't exactly go >around >telling innocent people to "make my day" either, and didn't really seem to >enjoy >the need to kill... >I'd count the actions from whence his name come as one of the "vices" of a >character not really placing that as a major emphasis on the alignment >perspective. > >Later. > >Jesse. >vanquer@softhome.net >ICQ. 8004143 > >* Actually, I would rate Dirty Harry as Chaotic Good. He has a disregard for laws and social standards in favor of justice. Kind of like Robin Hood. Harold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:09:17 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > of Good. That's Fate or Destiny (which tends to have the interests of good > at heart). > It does? Interesting point of view. . . . . As to the below, I am tending towards a similar perspective, which is one of the reasons my interest in the original alignment system is rekindling. > > Speaking of alignment, in the original D&D game, alignment was divided > into Law/Order, Neutrality, and Chaos. I always felt that most of the > people of the world were somewhere in between, colored by working for the > forces of Good or Evil. Often, I described characters as Lawful (tending > toward evil) or Chaotic (tending toward good). The world and people are > not black and white, that's what makes them interesting as characters. > There should always be strengths and weaknesses, nobilities and flaws that > can be exploited by the DM to tell a more well-rounded story. > > Harold > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:13:00 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) > > Actually, I would rate Dirty Harry as Chaotic Good. > We've had three people respond to this one, and they each gave three different answers (LN, NG, and CG), which, IMO, proves my point about applying alignments even to fictional characters. . . . . . If we didn't already know what Alignment, for example, Etienne d'Ambreville had, or Edriana "the Wise", would we be in agreement about *their* alignment? Furthermore, once again: should it matter? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:33:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: [MYSTARA] - Shouting >>Harold Johnson wrote: >OOOH! JESSE, YOU ASK THE TOUGH ONES. Sorry to be pernickity, but could people avoid using all caps when they're posting? I know it's sometimes unavoidable but it really does read like you're shouting! (For emphasis I always prefer *asterisks* over CAPS...just being nitpicky again...) gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:47:22 -0700 From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Shouting mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: >>>Harold Johnson wrote: >>OOOH! JESSE, YOU ASK THE TOUGH ONES. > >Sorry to be pernickity, but could people avoid using all caps when >they're posting? I know it's sometimes unavoidable but it really does >read like you're shouting! > >(For emphasis I always prefer *asterisks* over CAPS...just being >nitpicky again...) > >gordon >* Hey, my fault. I'm not up on Internet Ettiquet, but I bet all you guys and gals will teach me soon enough! harold *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:06:00 -0700 From: Andrew Blackett Subject: [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box Hi folks, I'm new to the list and have been lurking here for a few days. I haven't played any D&D for many years, but I recently had my interest revived when I wandered into a games store while on holiday, just to see what had happened to the hobby in the last 15 years or so. Quite a bit, it seems... Anyway, after a few hours zipping all over the Net, catching up on stuff, I find myself wanting to get hold of a set of rules and maybe dragging a few friends into a game. I've always had a fondness for the Basic D&D rules (started with the Basic Rules/B2 set), but it seems that TSR has discontinued all of that stuff in favour of AD&D. A bit more Net research has suggested that what I *really* want to get hold of is the D&D Rules Cyclopedia rulebook. I've seen used copies for sale on the Net, but given the current state of the Canadian $, plus the hassle of customs, shipping etc., the pricing is "unattractive", to say the least. What I *can* still get hold of here in Canada at reasonable cost is a box called "The Classic Dungeons and Dragons Game". I haven't been able to find much info on it, and was wondering if anyone on the list could tell me a bit more about it. Does it go beyond the rules in the original Basic Set (i.e. beyond 3rd level) ? Is it in any way comparable to the Rules Cyclopedia ? Or is it just a simplistic "introductory" type of thing ? Thanks in advance for any input, Andrew. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:13:00 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project btw: you do know that spheres and powers for each immortal is available at Stan's site? I know.I am using that as a base, but I might change some spheres and powers to what I think is more appropriate. You might have noticed that Al-Kalim's spheres are close to what is present on Stan's site, but not quite the same - a particularly notable thing is that I removed the Necromantic sphere, for a couple of reasons it's inappropriate to Al-Kalim IMO. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:15:42 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim >Tolerance? Of, say, "foreign infidel devils"? He is the patron of tolerance in Saragon, not in Ylaruam, obviously :) Oh, one other addition (non-canon based on my own article): AFFILIATED ORDERS: Khinjar al-Sahraa, the Desert Dagger, is a secret society of religious assassins who slay those who commit blasphemy against Al-Kalim's name. The members are LN and LE warriors and thieves, with a few more radical priests, but no mages (the Desert Dagger hates mages and slays them on sight). The society is secret and nominally illegal, but is quietly supported by the Kin faction. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:15:17 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Al-Kalim Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > > >Tolerance? Of, say, "foreign infidel devils"? > > He is the patron of tolerance in Saragon, not in Ylaruam, obviously :) I'm not sure he's not the patron of tolerance in Ylaruam. It could be that the Ylari have just taken his words out of context and given them a different meaning. Looking at current religions shows that very often this happens even by the most devote of followers. Maybe another reason the Ylari haven't been able to claim Al-Kalim's Garden dream. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:58:56 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >Actually, I would rate Dirty Harry as Chaotic Good. He has a disregard for >laws and social standards in favor of justice. Kind of like Robin Hood. >Harold I would have to ask if you don't see the brutality as a disqualifier for the "good" alignment though? I, also, thought that the sense of justice was a lawful trait- but I see your disregard for social standards as a good reason to make him chaotic... Like I said earlier, I'd have to watch these again because it's been forever and that's probably part of my vasilation. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:03:14 CDT From: "Ceaf Lewis" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Companion Set Hi! I only have the DM book of the Companion set, ao I need some help here. I need: The ways to become an Immortal Rules for Wrestling Thanks! Ceaf Lewis lordceaf@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:02:34 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >> Actually, I would rate Dirty Harry as Chaotic Good. >We've had three people respond to this one, and they each gave three >different answers (LN, NG, and CG), which, IMO, proves my point about >applying alignments even to fictional characters. . . . . . > >If we didn't already know what Alignment, for example, Etienne d'Ambreville >had, or Edriana "the Wise", would we be in agreement about *their* >alignment? > Furthermore, once again: should it matter? I've got to comment here. There were three characters brought up at that time Saruman, Golem, and Dirty Harry. Two out of the three (Both of which *fit* the fantasy era) were agreed upon. I'd like to ask who out of the 3 answers given has seen Dirty Harry in the recent past? This IIRC was a movie set to address the moral dilemma of alignment almost as much as for the great action... Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:33 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alignments: Who needs 'em? In a message dated 8/11/98 12:25:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vanquer@softhome.net writes: > > Sorry, but I still use that xp loss. No, you don't change sword usage- but > it's > called a role-playing penalty. If you choose an alignment, then don't stay > within > its guidelines then you're not properly playing your character, thus you > lose xp. > and I change your alignment to match what you're playing. The only way there should be no penalty would be if it fit in with the story. Certain feelings and morals change when a major experience has taken place. Such as the loss of a loved one for example. During these times if a player states his character now sees things in a different light, a new alignment should be agreed upon by the player and DM. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:36 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/11/98 1:23:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > > although the NG one is slowly turning into a bit of a Nazi..."It's > > all for the good of the country!" And he believes it is...is he > > good?) I believe he is. If one tries to help out his country and his people he his good. If this includes wars with other countries, using blackmail, or sacrificing himself.... as long as he has a greater good fueling his actions, it should be considered a good act IMO. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:44 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/11/98 1:34:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie writes: > The character I was talking about > (his name's Alonzo, a glantrian elf in the Army), has just authorised > the use of Terrorists in Alphatia. He *knows* that they're going to > kill innocent people, but he knows also that unless things change, > Glantri is doomed, his friends, family, countrymen etc, will be > killed. Is this wrong? (I think so personally, but that's just me...) Whether this is morally wrong is irrelevant. It is an act that could save many Glantrian lives at the expense of killing some of the enemy. This is a goodly act. > And if the objective result of his behaviour (killing innocents in > amongst the military targets) is to encourage enough Peace Lovers in > Alphatia (Terari, the Elves) to convince the Council to stop the war? > Was it then a good act? If it goes wrong and encourages more violence > is it suddenly evil? (actually a bit of both will happen...does that > cancel the good/evil out?) The ends can't identify the means of this example as a good/evil act. It's not decided by the result. For example: Someone is going to destroy Mystara, presses the wrong button on his "Destroy Mystara" console and mistakenly makes all the harvests for the next 10 years be the most plentiful ever. This guy tried to destroy mystara, but since a good act was the outcome, should all be thankful? I don't think so. > When a Paladin rides into an Orc camp and slaughters everyone in it, > is he being good? Even the women and children? (If he doesn't they're > going to try and kill him....) It depends on the character. It would be an evil act to kill the women and children when they could easily be subdued. However, some characters have immense hatred for orcs which would push them over the edge and have them cleaving women and childrens heads with the others raising thier eyebrows at him. Paladins should be trained well enough to conquer the emotions of hatred when the risk leading to evil. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:52 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/11/98 2:17:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > An evil character doesn't wake up, > beat his wife and kids then goes out to plot. And a good character > doesn't stand around smiling pleasantly when a wagon wheel throws mud > all over him. Not 100% of them, but i don't see why some evil characters aren't like the one you described. Those people do exist. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:55 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thoughts on True Neutral I think that this is all relative to what the individual DM believes, but i do enjoy seeing how others view the axis.... In a message dated 8/11/98 2:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vanquer@softhome.net writes: > TN: He doesn't care about anything... He doesn't have a code of conduct to > follow. He doesn't care about the ethics of a situation. He uses the > different aspects of alignment totally randomly on a whim. I don't allow > players to play this alignment because one of two things ALWAYS occurs: > 1.The player is constantly doing a reverse of last action to stay within his > alignment, or 2.The player quickly changes to a different alignment due to > fairly consistent actions in a direction. My thoughts on TN are this: First off, you should realize that this is the AD&D choice of alignment for most druids in the game. I think a character of complete neutrality realizes a few things. They know that good and evil have always been around and regardless as to how many liches and paladins there are in the world, nothing will stop either good or evil. I also think that most should also believe in cycles, or the "ying-yang" ideas. When anything bad comes about, there is always something good around the corner. I also believe that they don't make loyal companions, but will befriend others for periods of time, until neither of the two are benefiting from the experience. So overall, my thoughts on true neutral are almost completely oppisite from yours as i see them as the most ethical beings whereas you believe them to be the least. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:31:01 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Neutrals In a message dated 8/11/98 2:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vanquer@softhome.net writes: > LN: He doesn't care about anyone or anything else. All he cares about is the > Law (whichever one he adheres to). This Could just as well be called an > Absolute Lawful. Well, in my eyes, lawfull also deals greatly with loyalty. A lawful character would be extremely loyal to what he believes in. Whether it is his local law, an Immortal, or a friend. Therefore i see LN as an alignment you can count on, but won't necessarily be one to risk his life for the cause of his belief. > CN: He doesn't care about good or evil either. All he cares about is > himself. He does what he wants, when he wants, where he wants. If it breaks > the "social norms" for behavior- ALL THE BETTER !!! Caring about oneself is evil to me. Chaotic is just an alignment you take as someone whom isn't trustworthy, his neutrality however would keep his ethics straight IMC. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:46 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > > This is where we encounter problems with objective definitions of > > evil, but when it comes down to it they can be solved pretty > > easily...whatever the DM thinks is evil, is evil. There, that should > > avoid another boring slavery is evil thread :) I agree with this..... Before alignment is chosen, the DM should explain what his understanding of good/evil lawful/chaotic is. Especially since all these rules are optional. The player should create her alignment around the DM's thoughts and if the DMs thoughts are really far fetched, just write down his ideas on a cheat sheet so you won't forget what your alignment really means. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:31:08 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) In a message dated 8/11/98 3:42:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > simplistically: > DM: "Yep, he's Chaotic Evil all right." > Player: "Ok, we watch him very carefully. This could be the killer." > or > DM: "He's Lawful Good" > Player: "Ok, he can't be our man, then. We move on." > That's the DM's fault if anything, if the PCs believe that the only killer could be CE. I'm not sure who mentioned it before, but the villians handbook has excellent examples of villians of all alignments. The book even gives an example of a paladin villian. Detect Alignment should not be able to be used as detect enemy IMO. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:31:02 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) In a message dated 8/11/98 3:25:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > > If he's a consistent well-drawn NPC then he's got an alignment whether > you > > chose > > to label it on him or not... > > > And you may as well not bother. How about non-consistently used NPCs. If i haven't used an NPC in a long time, it may be difficult to remember his exact reactions to certain situations. Usually i will keep some inof on the charecter to accompany the Character Sheet, but i will always make sure to write down the alignment for future reference. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:05:54 -0500 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:06:00 -0700 Andrew Blackett writes: >What I *can* still get hold of here in Canada at reasonable cost is a >box >called "The Classic Dungeons and Dragons Game". I haven't been able to >find >much info on it, and was wondering if anyone on the list could tell me >a bit >more about it. Does it go beyond the rules in the original Basic Set >(i.e. >beyond 3rd level) ? Is it in any way comparable to the Rules >Cyclopedia ? Or >is it just a simplistic "introductory" type of thing ? I *believe* (since I don't have it) that it is a repackaging of the NEW Dungeons and Dragons Game black boxed set (which I do own). It had rules for levels 1-5 for the 7 basic classes. It may be different but I doubt it contains the full rules. Aaron Nowack "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only.... SPAM." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Inconu writes: > > I believe he is. If one tries to help out his country and his people he his > good. If this includes wars with other countries, using blackmail, or > sacrificing himself.... as long as he has a greater good fueling his actions, > it should be considered a good act IMO. > So then you're saying that the ends justify the means, eh? How far does that extend? Torture? Strikes aimed at civilian populations? If the enemy leader tells you to kill 10 children, and he'll stop the war (and you verify that he is being truthful), you then kill 10 children? I think that I would have to reject that attitude ("the ends justify the means") out of hand, if I were good. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:01:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > Whether this is morally wrong is irrelevant. It is an act that could save many > Glantrian lives at the expense of killing some of the enemy. This is a goodly > act. > C.F. my previous screed as to why it isn't: 1) deliberatly targeting innocent civilians in "terror strikes" is a typically "evil" act in fantasy genras. 2) you are more likely to provoke the enemy (in this case Alphatia) to respond in kind than you are to get them to submit ("Glantri City as a Sea of Glass"). Let's just ask the Alphatiaphiles: your nation is being subject to terrorist attacks directed at noncombatants. Do you: A) Decide to surrender immediately rather than let this continue. B) Decide to negotiate an immediate ceace fire rather than let this contiune C) Mobilize a "massive response" targeting the enemy nation with such overwhelming distructive force that no other nation will attempt to emulate such "vile attacks against our nation and people." The Glantrians should ask *themselves* which response is more likely before they foolishly escalate the war to a level that they may learn to regret. And the response, which would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of Glantrians, is hardly "good", even from a relativistic Glantrian perspective (Zero lives saved, many lives lost). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:28:51 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Inconu writes: > > I believe he is. If one tries to help out his country and his people he his > good. If this includes wars with other countries, using blackmail, or > sacrificing himself.... as long as he has a greater good fueling his actions, > it should be considered a good act IMO. > Scene continuation: Two people decide to join an organization ("the brotherhood") dedicated to overthrowing a tyrannical regeme (the Party). They meet with an individual who is a member of the Brotherhood: O'Brien: ". . .You will understand that I must start by asking you certain questions. In general terms, what are you prepaired to do [to overthrow the Party, and Big Brother.]?" Winston: "Anything that we are capable of." . . . O'B: "You are prepaired to give your lives?" W: "Yes" O'B: "You are prepaired to commit murder?" W: "Yes" O'B: "To commit acts of sabotage which may cause the death of hundreds of innocent people?" W: "Yes" O'B: "Yo betray your country to foreign powers?" W: "Yes" O'B: "You are prepaired to cheat, to forge, to blackmail, to corrupt the minds of children, to distribute habit-forming drugs, to encourage prostitution, to disseminate venereal diseases -- to do anything which is likely to cause demoralization and weapen the power of the Party?" W: "Yes" O'B: "If, for example, it would somehow serve our interests to throw suphuric acid in a child's face -- are you prepared to do that?" W: "Yes" O'B: "You are prepared to lose your identity and live out the rest of your life as a waiter or a dock worker?" W: "Yes" O'B: "You are prepared to commit suicide, if and when we order you to do so?" W: "Yes" O'B: "You are prepared, the two of you, to separate and never see one another again?" "No!" broke in Julia. --"Ninteen Eighty-Four", By George Orwell. Copywrite 1949. At what point do you loose the very virtue you claim to represent, commiting whatever action that comes to mind in the effort to oppose or overthrow evil? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #571 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, August 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 572 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Vs: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:16:49 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) At 08.05 14/08/98 +0100, Rob wrote: >If he knows hes being ESPed he is probably just reciting insults in his head >(I guess thats what the save vs spell at +4 is for). I don't know. I think that when you're interrogated your mind automatically thinks to what your asked... or even worst to something linked that you would like to keep secret. For example, you've robbed a cartful of gold and someone is asking you where you put that gold. Obviously you don't want to tell him where you hide the booty, but your mind thinks to it automatically... maybe just for a fraction of a second, but it's difficult to control you will and no to think to it (here's where you've the saving throw IMO). >ESP is really not such >an incredibly useful spell. Priests have far more potent divination - from >augury right up to Commune. Sure. >But I definitely dont think u should get rid of a spell like that. I'm >proud of any mages IMC who make use of things like enchantment and >divination. All too often mages kit up with fireballs and magic missiles, >which takes a lot away from what is probably the most interesting class in >the game. Me too, even if I don't consider the mage "the most interesting class in the game", but that's another matter. PS: I'm going out of town for a couple of weeks, don't write too much :-) - -------------- Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 - -------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:51:46 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > Hes cooler as an elf. Hes a bit more of a tragic figure then (especially if > he finds out - its the Hunchback of Notre Dame effect :) He could even fall > in love with an elven woman from Erewan or something :) > > As a kobold hes just (another) scheming piece of trash. No change there. > > A kobold is a kobold. Smaller than a goblin :) > > Cheerz > > Rob > Yes, but this small kobold could tear you apart by wiggling his fingers. Worse, he's much more agile and experienced in fighting than you might expect. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:48:53 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > Kol is a Kobold Wicca. Not some absolutely stupid 'witch doctor' > > > Max IV - A Kobold is a Kobold > Absolutely! In tennis we would call the whole matter an "unforced error". Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:27:39 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) - -- >>If he knows hes being ESPed he is probably just reciting insults in his head >>(I guess thats what the save vs spell at +4 is for). > >I don't know. I think that when you're interrogated your mind automatically >thinks to what your asked... or even worst to something linked that you >would like to keep secret. >For example, you've robbed a cartful of gold and someone is asking you >where you put that gold. Obviously you don't want to tell him where you >hide the booty, but your mind thinks to it automatically... maybe just for >a fraction of a second, but it's difficult to control you will and no to >think to it (here's where you've the saving throw IMO). Sounds about right. But the guy being interrogated could just do the IRA tactic - just dont listen to the interrogator and sing songs... >>But I definitely dont think u should get rid of a spell like that. I'm >>proud of any mages IMC who make use of things like enchantment and >>divination. All too often mages kit up with fireballs and magic missiles, >>which takes a lot away from what is probably the most interesting class in >>the game. > >Me too, even if I don't consider the mage "the most interesting class in >the game", but that's another matter. Thieves would be if magic wasnt so all-powerful. Fighters are the dullest class in the game IMO. (I hate playing fighters!). >PS: I'm going out of town for a couple of weeks, don't write too much :-) I am the personification of brusqueness... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:04:17 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Here's a strategy sketch for Jennite independance in Esterhold. Note that it is not nessissarily a critique of any person or almanac's perspective on the Esterhold situation, but just a notional strategy. Some might find it useful for their own campaigns, or perhaps something to critique. FACT: the Jennite independance movement can defeat local Alphatian forces, but cannot stand against all of "Outer World" Alphatia (refered to from now on as "NACE" for convenience, since people are familiar with what it represents). NACE forces are more powerful, backed by more magic (Jennite rebels will have mages and clerics, but by themselves no match for the power NACE can mobilize). There is also a "co-opted" population of local Jennites who for whatever reason do not favor throwing out the Alphatian occupiers. However, they are not as commited (morale-wise) as the pro-independance forces are. PROBLEM: Since Alphatian forces cannot be defeated in the field, through frontal (linear-logic) battles and attrition, any successful independance movement must adapt creative solutions to their strategic delema. Noitably: A) Though the rebels cannot win militarily, they need to remain a "force in being" dispite any setbacks. Some method of keeping an army in being, even in defeat and retreat, must be secured. Free Jen in Skothia can help with arms and "vollenteers". B) The war cannot be won in Esterhold. Because the NACE is overwhelmingly powerful militarily, the *real* battlefield of the war is not in Esterhold, but in the heartlands of NACE in general. SOLUTION: Dispersion into small forces, which can gather at need for strikes against selected targets, but then melt into the vast hinterlands of Esterhold. Small forces also mean that they are not worth sending I.E. Men of War or units of Wizards after. Still, the independance movement must accept that most battles will end in tactical defeat for them. Real arena of the war is, as mentioned, the NACE "homeland(s)". If sufficient discord and agitation (through propaganda &tc) within NACE itself can be stirred up, to create an "anti-war" movement, and the feeling that the war is, for NACE, A) interminable: will go on for a long time, and tactical victories won't change that. B) not worth the cost. C) "morally wrong" Then NACE policy may change and Esterhold will be "liberated". OPERATIONAL IMPLICATIONS: The independance movement will largely "cede" the cities and other strongpoints to NACE/loyalist forces. Asside for oportunistic raids (small, "commando style" strikes, intended as surprise), they will not contest control over the urban centers. The independance movement will instead seek to control the countryside, make roads (especially to valuable mines) dangerous, win over the "hearts and minds" of the scattered settlements and mine workers, and make the mines themselves unproductive (due to danger, sabotage, and the expense of hiring extra guards to try and secure shipments.). Tactically, independantist forces will be organized into small units, similar to the below: DIVISION NAME: Jennite Rebel Company DIVISION TYPE: Regular Militia NUMBER OF SUCH UNITS: Varries (depending on vicicitudes of war. Anywhere from 30-80 at any given time, plus potential help from Skothian Jen). BR: 114 Personnel: 68 Troop Class: Average DIVISION BREAKDOWN: Division Commander: Rebel Commander (F8) Deputy Commander: Rebel Leader (F7) Heros: Rebel Wizard (W6), Priest of Tarastia (C6), Hero (F6) 1st Squadron: 20 Jennite light cavalry (F1), leather, shield, lance, composite bow, light war horse. 1 Lieutenant (F4). 2nd Squad: 20 Jennite rebel infantry (F1), leather, shield, composite bow, short sword. 1 Lieutenant (F4). 3rd Squad: 20 Jennite rebel infantry (F1), leather, shield, spear, short sword. 1 Lieutenant (F4). Units can cooperate effectively in large battles, and disperse into the interior. Routed units reform in the countryside of Esterhold after the appropriate period has passed. Recruiting from the local populace fills out losses. COMPAIR IRL: American Revolution (small unit tactics, Washington's strategy of keeping an army in being no matter how bad things got), Vietnam War (small unit tactics, motivated "anti-colonialist" forces, propaganda intended to convince opponent population & leaders that the war was wrong). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:06 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) At 11:27 PM 8/14/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Thieves would be if magic wasnt so all-powerful. Fighters are the dullest >class in the game IMO. (I hate playing fighters!). Pah! Its all a matter of perspective. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler with an alchemy proficiency and the the ability to make dynamite. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler with alchemy proficency and the ability to make dynamite with said dynamite placed inside glasssteel casing See..there are ways to make the a fighter interesting. Besides RPing well. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:19:56 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "The Classic D&D Game" box In a message dated 98-08-14 16:09:06 EDT, anowack@juno.com writes: << I *believe* (since I don't have it) that it is a repackaging of the NEW Dungeons and Dragons Game black boxed set (which I do own). It had rules for levels 1-5 for the 7 basic classes. It may be different but I doubt it contains the full rules. >> i have the classic dnd box. basically it is as Aaron says. levels 1-5 in basic dnd rules. i bought mine as sort of a package deal. i paid like $20 for the classic box, savage baronies, nighthowlers, the milenian sceptor, and two back issue dragon mags. the gaming store was redoing their gaming section so i took advantage of the moment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:35:49 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >I would have to ask if you don't see the brutality as a disqualifier for the >"good" alignment though? I, also, thought that the sense of justice was a Brutality? Is he brutal to old ladies on the sidewalk? No, IIRC he is only brutal to criminals and such. >lawful trait- but I see your disregard for social standards as a good reason >to make him chaotic... Like I said earlier, I'd have to watch these again You don't need to be lawful to have a sense of justice. Remember, law is not necessarily justice. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:37:11 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Kol >Yes, but this small kobold could tear you apart by wiggling his fingers. >Worse, he's much more agile and experienced in fighting than you might >expect. > > > Jamuga Khan Do I see Jamuga Khan praising a Glantrian prince? :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:10:52 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >>I would have to ask if you don't see the brutality as a disqualifier for the >>"good" alignment though? I, also, thought that the sense of justice was a >Brutality? Is he brutal to old ladies on the sidewalk? No, IIRC he is only brutal to criminals and such. So what you're saying here is that if I beat up on a criminal I'm good, but if I beat up on anyone else I'm evil? Brutality is brutality no matter who it's done to. Brutality, especially in the amount that I seem to recall from the movies would seem to disqualify a character from being good. >>lawful trait- but I see your disregard for social standards as a good reason >>to make him chaotic... Like I said earlier, I'd have to watch these again >You don't need to be lawful to have a sense of justice. Remember, law is not necessarily justice. >Aleksei Andrievski I didn't say that you had to be lawful to have a sense of justice, I said that justice is a lawful trait. There's a big difference here. Just like a Lawful character could completely ignore social standards (which is a chaotic trait) and still be lawful if he's got enough of the other lawful traits to still make him predominantly lawful. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:33:55 +1000 From: stan Subject: [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page With the TSR page changes it took me a little while to find where all the Mystaran goodies were located, but where are the Dragon magazine articles located? stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:58:55 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >>Thieves would be if magic wasnt so all-powerful. Fighters are the dullest >>class in the game IMO. (I hate playing fighters!). > >Pah! Its all a matter of perspective. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler. Think >Savage Coast swashbuckler with an alchemy proficiency and the the ability to >make Swashbucklers are a class unto themselves, IMO... The last fighter I played was a lupin swashbuckler. And I know its all a matter of perspective. But in terms of abilities, all fighters do ultimately is kill people. Also, certain classes have certain duties in an adventuring party - priests are medics, for example. Fighters kill - and I dont really like playing that sort of character... >dynamite. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler with alchemy proficency and the >ability >to make dynamite with said dynamite placed inside glasssteel casing Hmm. A fighter with alchemy??? Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:03:38 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol >> Hes cooler as an elf. Hes a bit more of a tragic figure then (especially >if >> he finds out - its the Hunchback of Notre Dame effect :) He could even >fall >> in love with an elven woman from Erewan or something :) >> >> As a kobold hes just (another) scheming piece of trash. No change there. >> >> A kobold is a kobold. Smaller than a goblin :) >> >> Cheerz >> >> Rob >> > >Yes, but this small kobold could tear you apart by wiggling his fingers. >Worse, he's much more agile and experienced in fighting than you might >expect. Hmm. I think in the Hammer film variant of the Hunchback the little guy managed to rack up a body count... :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:09:43 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Jesse LaBranche wrote: > >>I would have to ask if you don't see the brutality as a disqualifier for > the > >>"good" alignment though? I, also, thought that the sense of justice was a > > >Brutality? Is he brutal to old ladies on the sidewalk? No, IIRC he is only > brutal to criminals and such. > > So what you're saying here is that if I beat up on a criminal I'm good, but > if I beat up on anyone else > I'm evil? Brutality is brutality no matter who it's done to. Brutality, > especially in the amount that I seem > to recall from the movies would seem to disqualify a character from being > good. Maybe the way you justify your brutality is what makes the difference between good and evil. The Medieval world is a violent one, and if you arent prepared to draw your sword against an enemy, you will quickly end up dead. Killing a person is brutal, what difference does it make if you kicked his face in before he died? Isn't a Paladin an incarnation of violence? He is still listed as good, so what makes him goos must be the way he directs his violence. For instance, in one campaign all criminals are evil stealing from the citizens the good king fails to protect. In other campaigns, criminals are poor people who have to steal to survive because the evil tyrant puts heavy taxation on them. Didn't Jeff Daly mention Les Miserables earlier on? The problem with this is that there has to be some agreement between the DM and the players about who is good and who is evil. From my experience, the DM will never have much trouble making the Pcs hate someone, but making them like someone might be more tricky. In a Krynn campaign I am a player in we all really hate Solamnic Knights, yet the DM wants us to like them. Giving them an alignment and telling us that they are good and so are we so we're supposed to be on the same side doesn't work for me. Especially when they are roleplayed in a very annoying way. (I know, Pcs always have problems with authorities) Someone pointed out to me in an earlier thread that good and evil in AD&D isn't neccasarily what most people associate with those words outside the game. But if that is the case, what is the point of using those terms? > I didn't say that you had to be lawful to have a sense of justice, I said > that justice is a lawful trait. > There's a big difference here. Just like a Lawful character could completely > ignore social standards > (which is a chaotic trait) and still be lawful if he's got enough of the > other lawful traits to still make > him predominantly lawful. What is justice? Should that be defined by culture or should we make our own overarching definition of justice? Interestingly enough I find this more relevant to Mystara than most of TSRs other settings because Mystara actually has alot of interesting cultures. (FR does not IMO) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:21:09 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Harold Johnson wrote: > mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes: > >Do you give xp for good role-playing as suggested in the DMG? If so then > >they should also be penalized for poor role-playing... > HERE! HERE! HOWEVER, BAD ROLE-PLAYING OFTEN RESULTS IN OTHER NEGATIVES, > SUCH AS NO EXPERIENCE, NO TREASURE, AND SOMETIMES DEATH. I have a problem with this. (Not thinking about the Caps, Harold ;) In most discussions about good/bad roleplaying there seems to be an idea that the GM is a better roleplayer that his players. My gaming group has been the same one since I started gaming about 10 years ago. We all have about equal experience both as players and as Game Masters. I would be very hesitant to penalize any of my friends for 'bad roleplaying'. In fact it would make me feel like a hypocrite. Yet, I am often be impressed by my players when they come up with an amazing idea or invent a really original character. If the PCs do something really stupid, such as attempting to kill the king without havi ng a good plan, they will have to face the consequences. Death might be around the corner..but I would never give one of my players fewer experience points as a punnishment. Maybe, I am so sceptical towards this because it has been done to me, over a disagreement of what the CG alignment should be like. (I played it like dirty harry ;) sincerely, Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:28:55 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I'm curious as to anyone on this list has read the book "The Primal Order" >published by WotC before the buy-out. For those who have, did you apply >the information to Immortals in your campaigns? I'd be interested in >hearing the replies... > I`ve used the rules, modified of course, especially the ones about spheres of influence and the ones for tp from worshippers sites etc in conjunction with those for having to expend tp to empower individual clerics etc. Ok so there`s quite a bit of bookkeeping for the players, Immortality isn`t easy! I`ve also said that spending 100 tp gives you any MORTAL level spell once per round and I use the gold box for Immortal level spellcasting. We`ve only just begun though so some of the other abilities of higher ranks haven`t come online yet. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 07:30:27 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) > >>dynamite. Think Savage Coast swashbuckler with alchemy proficency and the >>ability >>to make dynamite with said dynamite placed inside glasssteel casing > >Hmm. A fighter with alchemy??? > Make things go 'BOOM'! Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:39:43 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? A lot of the intracacies >these "history discussions" are lost on me, and I suspect on others who >also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. > Agood point. I`m lucky enough to have all the gaz pc hw etc and if given ok by WotC and a site to put them will scan ALL of it for usage.BTW no OK no scan Ican`t afford another lawsuit this year <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 07:34:26 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page At 06:33 PM 8/15/98 +1000, you wrote: >With the TSR page changes it took me a little while to find where >all the Mystaran goodies were located, but where are the >Dragon magazine articles located? > In the Reading Room. If I remember correctly. Click on Dragon, then after, there on the left side in tiny lettering are the words 'back issues'. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:42:35 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, paul dooley wrote: > > >I'm curious as to anyone on this list has read the book "The Primal > Order" > >published by WotC before the buy-out. For those who have, did you apply > >the information to Immortals in your campaigns? I'd be interested in > >hearing the replies... > > > I`ve used the rules, modified of course, especially the ones about > spheres of influence and the ones for tp from worshippers sites etc in > conjunction with those for having to expend tp to empower individual > clerics etc. Ok so there`s quite a bit of bookkeeping for the players, > Immortality isn`t easy! I`ve also said that spending 100 tp gives you > any MORTAL level spell once per round and I use the gold box for > Immortal level spellcasting. We`ve only just begun though so some of the > other abilities of higher ranks haven`t come online yet. I haven't actually used TPO(The Primal Order), but I have been thinking about it. IMO, it needs some serious modifications. Keeping track of all your followers and all your spellcasters is a vaste of time and will be impossible if you take into account that mystaras universe is almost as big as ours and that there also is an unlimited number of planes out there where you easily can get millions of followers with little effort. Is there any TPO stuff on web? Paul if you have created any new spheres of influence or defined existing Immortals spheres, I would be very interested in seeing it. The rules about controlling planes work well though. I would also rule that followers outside the Prime Material doesnt provide power. If I dont ignore that rule altogether. IMO TPO is a really interesting idea, but extremely old fashioned...but hey this list is for discussing XD&D, what am I to talk about old fashioned? ;) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:46:51 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >One act doesn't make your alignment. It might make a Ranger lose something, >but it doesn't change his alignment. > Well let`s see as a ranger I assassinate someone for the greater good. Poof no more rangerhood EVER so next time I`ll probably do the same for a smaller good then smaller etc. Excuse me but isn`t this a shift in alignment? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #572 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, August 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 573 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) [MYSTARA] - The Primal Order Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) Re: [MYSTARA] - The Primal Order [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:49:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Where's your source? On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, paul dooley wrote: > > A lot of the intracacies > >these "history discussions" are lost on me, and I suspect on others who > >also have a lack of Gazeteers and other out of print items. > Agood point. I`m lucky enough to have all the gaz pc hw etc and if given > ok by WotC and a site to put them will scan ALL of it for usage.BTW no > OK no scan Ican`t afford another lawsuit this year <;-P Another thing. Don't be afraid to ask. I'm sure people here will be kind enough to explain. I will be happy to help myself, although my problem is that I usually check my mail at the University and I dont bring all my books there. But like I said, there is a _lot_ of stuff on Web. Reading through the Great Timelines is a good start. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:51:41 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >I think it's the perfect moral dilemma of their "Lawful" versus their "Good" >aspect of alignment. > Just to make it clear. I`m in favour of `shades of grey for alignment behavior`, But totally against those black/white options which have grown in the system as a whole. BTW am I right in thinking that they had to be such `cos RW everyones shade is different? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:01:40 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >Ahh. Now this is agreed fully. I actually try to keep all of my rules "drawn >in sand". I've found that every time I try to carve one in stone somebody >writes something new that changes the ruling on me, or conflicts with >one that I've already got... > Hold on someone on this list actually agrees fully with something I posted? I`ve got to go and have a lie down before I faint. Trying to make this a useful post, someone asked for NPCs and I`ve just had a basic idea for one. OD&D paladin (AD&D Defender kit) who`s been changed into a Diaboli by the parties mage in order to achieve some campaign objective but can`t be turned back due to the total resistance they now have to magic. As I see it the immunities to hostile magic will be equalled by the loss of helpful magic such as healing teleport etc. This probably works best with OD&D due to the way Poly other works in the systems. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:18:28 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >Besides - to cast a spell u have to be in direct, unobstructed line of the >sight to the target. Also, you have to be jumping up and down, waving your >hands around, and generally being rather obvious. The guy is going to know! > Well if you cast it alone and then encounter the person whilst the spell duration is still active the they have no normal way of Knowing >Besides, usually using magical divination like that is illegal. I say in >Karameikos that any form of magical divination is assault - NO exceptions. > See above, If the person has no reason to believe that they`ve been scryed then there will be no case. A sort of sick RW analogy is this new date rape via drugs thing where the drug causes amnesia and dissapears from thesystem quickly. You can`t prove that it happened at the moment >Keep in mind that divination used for law enforcement is only as reliable as >the diviner. And as most Mystaran rulers are nonspellcasters, they probably >dont want to get too dependent on the court wizard.. Or a motley crew who >hail from Threshold, either... > Ever heard of Charm person? You trust your friends >>>If you interrogate the >>>victim with the aid of an ESP spell, they get a save vs spells with a +4 >>>bonus to prevent any useful info from being learned. >> >>Where's this from? >>Glantrian police officers (and my players) usually interrogate victims with >>the aid of ESP. > >AD+D... > Again only if aware; the guy doing the esp is the one who comes in late and says nothing, too busy listening, unless he gives a question to those doing the questioning. Watch any decent police show such as NYPD or Homicide as to how the questioning is done. If your trying very hard not to tell something your thinking about it therefore it can be reached and further questions will only bring it into sharper focus. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:26:10 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Iliric >Can an Immortal be ressurected? > According to `canon` NO, but by now your aware of my thoughts on that. However what if there was another avatar somewhere, it went exploring and got lost for a whole beyond the ken of the Immortals. Upon it`s return it would regain old rank and power (if still worshipped or within the ten year grace period), or reduced to a 1st level Immortal as if church had just been reborn IMO ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:34:57 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) >I know, but it's always bad when the PCs start quarreling between >themselves... and sometimes go on quarrelling IRL :-( > Not always there are times when due to good roleplay all around intense disagreement will occur. the really good players refer back to there opponents stance in a previous arguement just like RW. Anyway just because you work with someone doesn`t have to mean you like or even trust them. As a GM I tend to ignore it when it wont interact with the campaign or use their own dissentions against them whenever it enriches the campaign ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:36:10 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, paul dooley wrote: > >Can an Immortal be ressurected? > According to `canon` NO, but by now your aware of my thoughts on that. > However what if there was another avatar somewhere, it went exploring > and got lost for a whole beyond the ken of the Immortals. Upon it`s > return it would regain old rank and power (if still worshipped or within > the ten year grace period), or reduced to a 1st level Immortal as if > church had just been reborn IMO How about this. An immortal slain on his homeplane loses all his memories and becomes a lost soul in Limbo. Here he will easily be captured by the forces of enthropy. If he is to be ressurected the Immortal of Entropy who holds his soul must be convinced to give him up. Alternately, the Hierarch of Entropy can decide that the Immortal can be ressurected. However, this doesn't happen every day. According to Immortal Law death is under the juristiction of Entropy so other Hierarchs cannot force Entropy on this matter. just an idea.. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:11:46 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) But in terms of abilities, all fighters do >ultimately is kill people. Also, certain classes have certain duties in an >adventuring party - priests are medics, for example. Fighters kill - and I >dont really like playing that sort of character... > However the heavy weapon platform mage is favourite. The best warriors don`t have to kill they just stop anyone from killing the rest of the party. Also they get shafted xp wise as until teen levels they`re the most expensive class once you`ve gotten some experience under your belt. getting back to my first point who`s scarier the fighter who butchers all his enemies or the one who thinks so little of them that he lets them live and still completes the mission. If we`re not just monsterbashing this reputation will also give you a chance to surrender without too much loss in some cases ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:35:03 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Primal Order So far the players arestill deciding what there spheres may be for their advancement to to Temporal. I`m going to let them do most of the work and just assign the numbers. As for the bookkeeping that`s going along the lines of the more detail you give the more exact your income and expenditure (bigger income smaller expenditure). Since the party achieved immortality after years of mortal level play they are the newbies and have to do the initial stuff themselves, but having finally got a copy of birhright ( in order to play in the Mystaran PbeMs) I`ll also probablyuse a variant of that when the churches begin to grow . I`ll have to admit that my Immortals campaignwill probably Horrify purists for either of the TSR options, But as usual a synthesis is by far better than either of the low paths. At the moment They`re just getting use to having ULTIMATE power, Populating their home planes etc. The sponsors have quite a large number of errands for them that just have to be done immediately however. So it looks as if their adventuring days are far from over. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:42:11 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) >How about this. An immortal slain on his homeplane loses all his memories >and becomes a lost soul in Limbo. Here he will easily be captured by the >forces of enthropy. If he is to be ressurected the Immortal of Entropy wh= >o >holds his soul must be convinced to give him up. Alternately, the Hierarc= >h >of Entropy can decide that the Immortal can be ressurected. However, this >doesn't happen every day. According to Immortal Law death is under the >juristiction of Entropy so other Hierarchs cannot force Entropy on this >matter. > Nope `Limbo` is under the protection of the `Lords of Chaos` IIRC Bruce`s article, and the Immortals tread very lightly there. However this is ONLY `canon` so can as usual be totaly ignored if you so wish <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:56:36 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project This is a good idea IMO. However each Immortal will Have to also be placed in its specific place in each of the various pantheons it has membership in. Due to the evolution of churches such as Church Karameikos etc There will be a cobbling together of the duties etc of those within each grouping which may be very different to that of purist followers. Perhaps rather than trying to have everything in one place there should be a groupof sights detailing the various aspects. These will include but not be limited to Church Heirarchy, Politics, Relation to State, Martial force, Schisms, Missionaries etc. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:16:29 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) >So what you're saying here is that if I beat up on a criminal I'm good, but >if I beat up on anyone else >I'm evil? Brutality is brutality no matter who it's done to. Brutality, >especially in the amount that I seem >to recall from the movies would seem to disqualify a character from being >good. > Simple beating up of bad guys does not prevent you from being good. After all, that's what most adventurers do all the time. Obviously, if he started torturing criminals, that would be evil. >I didn't say that you had to be lawful to have a sense of justice, I said >that justice is a lawful trait. Not necessarily. You can be Chaotic Good and desire justice all the same. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 19:23:41 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Vs: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em?) Someone: > >So what you're saying here is that if I beat up on a criminal I'm good, but > >if I beat up on anyone else > >I'm evil? Brutality is brutality no matter who it's done to. Brutality, > >especially in the amount that I seem > >to recall from the movies would seem to disqualify a character from being > >good. Aleksei: > Simple beating up of bad guys does not prevent you from being good. > After all, that's what most adventurers do all the time. Obviously, if > he started torturing criminals, that would be evil. me: If there is such a thing as badguys. The alignment system encourages this and IMO it can be a really bad thing. My main argument againts it is that it isn't very realistic. Why would you want realism? This is fantasy, right? Yes, I agree. And I think that Good and evil should be a theme in most fantasy campaigns. However, a litle realism can be good. The alignment system will, whether you want it or not create a sense of Black and White people. ( and I'm not talking about skin colour). As someone mentioned, there are shades of grey. IMO it is more interesting if every servant of the dark lord isnt totally corrupted..and thats not just your father who turned to the dark side, i'm talking about. Its also totally cool if the Pcs sometimes are forced into situations where they may have to kill people who didn't really deserve it. PCs can have a bad concience from time to time too. IMO Good and evil should exist, but putting a label on everyone can easily ruin alot of interesting roleplaying situations. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 19:28:27 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Immortal Ressurection (was:- Iliric) On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, paul dooley wrote: > > >How about this. An immortal slain on his homeplane loses all his > memories > >and becomes a lost soul in Limbo. Here he will easily be captured by > the > >forces of enthropy. If he is to be ressurected the Immortal of Entropy > wh= > >o > >holds his soul must be convinced to give him up. Alternately, the > Hierarc= > >h > >of Entropy can decide that the Immortal can be ressurected. However, > this > >doesn't happen every day. According to Immortal Law death is under the > >juristiction of Entropy so other Hierarchs cannot force Entropy on this > >matter. > > > Nope `Limbo` is under the protection of the `Lords of Chaos` IIRC > Bruce`s article, and the Immortals tread very lightly there. However > this is ONLY `canon` so can as usual be totaly ignored if you so wish > <;-P I guess I should reread the article..anyway, here is an idea on how to make this work anyway. The 'Lord of Chaos' does not want Immortal souls in Limbo. In Limbo, souls is the currency. Immortal souls would totally imbalance the economy. So the LoC has made a deal with the Entropics which allows them to capture any Immortal souls found on Limbo. See, its easy to make up excuses so my theories don't conflict 'canon'. I think I should become a lawyer... Cheers, Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 19:31:51 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Primal Order Sounds interesting, Paul. Let me know when youre players work out something. Its a good idea to allow players to be active in campaign creation. It often makes them more interested in the setting...and it saves you time too :) And by the way..let them screw up Mystara totally if they want to. It could have very interesting results.. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:28:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold James Ruhland wrote: << Here's a strategy sketch for Jennite independance in Esterhold. [SNIP] FACT: the Jennite independance movement can defeat local Alphatian forces, but cannot stand against all of "Outer World" Alphatia (refered to from now on as "NACE" for convenience, since people are familiar with what it represents). >> Perhaps I shouldn't be answering this post because my knowledge of NACE is limited, but a few things occurred to me. There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for "Confederated", and typical of a confederation is divisiveness in goals. A confederation seldom acts in unison since its members are essentially sovereign nations. Usually only overwhelming pressures bring its members together. (Example: to my knowledge, had the Confederated States of America won independence from the Union, it would have effectively become a dozen or so little countries, at least for a few years, since states had veto power over national government. The Confederacy acted in unison only because of the Union's policy of physically retaking rebel states after the Ft. Sumter crisis; the Confederacy knew it stood no chance of fighting off the North without cooperation since the Union Army *on paper* was much more powerful than even a unified Confederate Army.) The major members of NACE (Norwold, Thothia & Alphatian Isle of Dawn, the Bellissarian Kingdoms) have very separate priorities right now and won't intervene in a member state about as powerful and influential as Qeodhar (as in not very) Norwold - King Ericall won't be of any significant help to NACE until he brings his rebel vassals back into line at the least, but it's more likely he won't help NACE until he holds a firm line against Heldann incursion in the south. Given Ericall isn't likely to even accomplish his first goal, Esterhold will be the very last of his concerns. Thothia et al. - The Emperor of Thyatis is bent on opportunizing on Alphatia's relocation. The Isle of Dawn all under Thyatis was the great dream of many Emperors, but Alphatia frustrated every attempt to realize that goal. Thothia *did* humiliate Thyatis by singlehandedly kicking Thyatis's butt in the Empire's most recent seizure attempt, but the Thyatian Army was nowhere near its usual form having just fought an apocalyptic war against Alphatia. Supposedly Thyatis is almost fully recovered from the war. Thothia knows Thyatis will try to grab all the Isle of Dawn again *sooner rather than later*. If Thothia hopes to even survive the next century, it has to pull off a few miracle victories against invading Thyatis. If Thothia wants to recapture its old glory (and it does), it needs to actually drive Thyatis from the Isle of Dawn. Plus Ostland, definitely a power on the rise, looks like it may go imperial since it's *en vogue* for nations that have the means to do right now. The Isle of Dawn will be its first target. And perhaps worst of all, the fanatical Knights of Vanya (basically the country Heldann) will shortly join the fray to take the Isle of Dawn. Even if Heldann is overrated, beneficiaries of inordinate luck recently, it currently poses a real threat to anyone it so much as glances at. Considering Thyatis has something like 5 million citizens to raise an army, Ostland has 100K, and Heldann has 300K, compared to Thothia's diminutive ~50 thousand, Thothia must fully devote itself to pulling the rest of the independent Isle of Dawn nations into its influence, brushing up on military tactics, and reinventing some magic tricks lost in Alphatia's sinking. Intervention in Esterhold is *not* a priority. The Bellissarian Kingdoms - These nations still epitomize the Alphatian overindulgance in individualism and elitism. They get along just fine by themselves. Considering their sparse population densities, they also have plenty of room to grow comfortably by themselves without extraterritorial trade, alliances, or conquests. Until they come around to a more agressive international policy (not likely to happen for a long time), they will do nothing for Esterhold. The only member I can see interested in Esterhold is Emperor Zandor's city of Aquas, and it is probably the most diminutive and one of the least powerful of the NACE members. So that just leaves the minority Aplhatian overlords Esterhold homesteaders, and Jennite loyalists to deal with. The opposition they can present to an adequate rebel army will be limited. << SOLUTION: Dispersion into small forces, which can gather at need for strikes against selected targets, but then melt into the vast hinterlands of Esterhold. Small forces also mean that they are not worth sending I.E. Men of War or units of Wizards after. Still, the independance movement must accept that most battles will end in tactical defeat for them. >> Here's what I remember of Esterhold. It's not prime land, it's sparsely populated, and authority isn't very visible. Its largest problem is raiding from the disorganized Jennites to the east (they're not too discriminate in who they attack either, whether their victims are Alphatian wizards or Jennite villages). Esterhold is also a civilized land. Esterhold Jennites have largely lost their horse warrior culture to the imported civilization of Alphatia. Should the Jennites desire to fight the regime (what little their is right now), they probably will not resort to guerrilla tactics because they simply will not know what such a thing is nor will they have the optimal means (transpotation, solid community support, free food) of carrying it out. (I know Mystara isn't real life, but much of its societal elements come from the real world, so I'm including the following.) Guerrilla tactics were almost never used before the Iberian and Russian phases of the Napoleonic Wars. Though seemingly a disorganized method of fighting, conducting guerrilla campaigns were much more difficult to organize than their massed counterparts. Such organization was usually beyond the means of simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong conviction. The Swiss and the Irish had the powerful conviction required of such measures, and they are the only two groups I can think of that extensively used guerrilla warfare before 1810. Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of Esterhold certainly aren't an exception. << Real arena of the war is, as mentioned, the NACE "homeland(s)". If sufficient discord and agitation (through propaganda &tc) within NACE itself can be stirred up, to create an "anti-war" movement, >> Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be was a product straight from the French Revolution where mass media was real. A majority of even peasants could read by that time, and even those that couldn't read usually could rely on someone else to read the daily news posted at the local press for them. NACE is as literate as nations go in Mystara, but press printing is devoid in NACE right now (Joshuan Gallidox will eventually change that ;) ) and peasants aren't widely literate. Only the big wigs are generally aware of international situations, and they generally have a stronger stomach in maintaining goals that the public would rather see forgone. << OPERATIONAL IMPLICATIONS: [SNIP] The independance movement will instead seek to control the countryside, make roads (especially to valuable mines) dangerous, win over the "hearts and minds" of the scattered settlements and mine workers, and make the mines themselves unproductive (due to danger, sabotage, and the expense of hiring extra guards to try and secure shipments.). >> Affecting the livelihood of small settlements and miners is the best way to build opposition to the rebels. The rebels would have to develop a sure way of drawing brutal retaliation from the government. (Once again, considering the general lack of government in Esterhold, I doubt such a reaction is likely.) << COMPAIR IRL: American Revolution (small unit tactics, Washington's strategy of keeping an army in being no matter how bad things got), Vietnam War (small unit tactics, motivated "anti-colonialist" forces, propaganda intended to convince opponent population & leaders that the war was wrong). >> The American Revolutionary Army did not extensively use small unit tactics. Yes, the units were small, but they utilized a style of war that was very organized (don't know the technical term for it, but I'll call it "free fighting"). They wouldn't usually march straight at the enemy in lines like the British, but would instead spread around the perimiters of the oncoming force and pick them off from several angles. When there was enough gunpowder and manpower for the Yankees (and such things were scarce in the beginning of the war), this tactic would often rout the enemy. Unlike guerrilla fighting, the American forces were massed instead of dispersed and would try to hold their ground in battle instead of hit and run. The Vietnam War is certainly a better equivalent to your proposal. That was a guerrilla war, it did have mass appeal to the "peasants", and it did spark anti-war sentiments in the agressor nation. But Vietnam, believe it or not, used massed tactics religiously against China and Khmer until the rise of Vietnam's modern era with Ho Chi Minh. I know in large I just wrote a rant, and it may be an unjustified one if I do have the NACE and Esterhold situations wrong. But here comes some positive thoughts :) Adventurers are the focus of the campaign. As such, it is assumed that they will become revolutionary figures in the history of Mystara, people who innovated and changed the world. Esterhold may not have a strong government, but simply the inaction of that government to halt brutal Jennite raiding is intolerable. Rather than an ethnic rebel war (those didn't really become formalized until the advent of ethnic nationalism in the 1800s, certainly not something that would happen in Mystara for awhile), a politically nationalist war is possible where the unprotected Jennites and Alphatians band together, wipe out the do-nothing mages, and create a new nation. And who is better to lead the rise of a new and innovative nation than the PCs? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #573 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, August 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 574 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D 6th edition- rgf marketplace Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran "Alignments" Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:30:06 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold > > There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for > "Confederated", > As a general comment, I think your opinion of "NACE's" ability to act in unison might be a bit pessimistic (from their perspective), especially if you go with the "NACE" as scripted in the Net Almanac, but even the nacient "New Alphatia" from JA et al. > little their is right now), they probably will not > resort to guerrilla tactics because they simply will > not know what such a thing is nor will they have the > optimal means > Again, I think you're a bit pessimistic, this time from the Jennite perspective. > Such organization was usually beyond the means of > simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong > conviction. > I could point out a few IRL pesant-based societies which engaged in such things, most prominently the Viet Cong themselves. As far as midieval & pre-midieval examples, I forget the name of the northern Hispanian tribes (prolly related to the Basques) that gave the Roman Legions so much trouble for over a century, but they used "light" tactics akin to guerrllia war. Also, the Slavs as they moved into the Balkans between the 6th-10th centuries rarely formed large "main battle" armies of their own (they would sometimes be found in Avar & Bulgar hosts), migrating & displacing with "small unit" tactics instead, and melting away (only to return, like water flows back in the wake of a ship) if an army passed through. I'm sure others can think of more "IRL" examples if they want to. > > Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its > history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics > beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of > Esterhold certainly aren't an exception. > I disagree. I think general Jennite tradition (light raiding parties) along with Esterhold Jen exposure to ideas (via Alphatia: use the education the Alphatians provided to a few of them: using knowledge against the conquerors is a very old trick). > > Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world > right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be > was a product straight from the French Revolution > where mass media was real. > I don't think so. All it would really need is one populizer. A lot of "NACE" related things could be considered "too modern for the Mystaran world right now" anyhow, if you were to stay within "strict" Midieval/Renaissance frameworks. Again, the main target would be the "opinion makers" (elites, urban populations), not the ignorant rural "base". As for the "Printing Press," Mystara actually already has a primitive version (see the Book of Marvellous Magic). > > The American Revolutionary Army did not extensively > use small unit tactics. Yes, the units were small, > but they utilized a style of war that was very > organized (don't know the technical term for it, but > I'll call it "free fighting"). > Note that I didn't say "disorganized." the American Revolutionary army also didn't "fight fair" (from an English perspective, using 19th century tactics to stand toe to toe firing and accepting musket volleys would be "fighting fair"). > Vietnam, believe it or not, used massed tactics > religiously against China and Khmer until the rise of > Vietnam's modern era with Ho Chi Minh. > They also used "massed tactics" on occasion even against the Americans, but they picked their fights (thus the reference to gathering into larger units to conduct opportunistic attacks for the Jennite proposal). > > Adventurers are the focus of the campaign. As such, > it is assumed that they will become revolutionary > figures in the history of Mystara, people who > innovated and changed the world. > I mentioned that in an earlier screed on the same subject. I envisioned such people as forming the "commando" style strike squads, and also the "visionary leadership" of any "rebel" movement. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:36:48 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Oh, one more thing re "guerrillia tactics"/small unit tactics: such things are not uncommon in pre-modern history for technical reasons, but because they aren't usually needed (or considered needed). However, in Mystara, the situation is different. When the enemy can use skyships and mages to "bombard" and thus break up large formations, the best reaction is to not give them a convenient target for their firepower. The way to do that is to not mass into such a target: you break up, disperse, melt into the countryside, and make "oportunistic attacks". The enemy mages & skyships can't be everywhere at once (especially since "NACE" has few of them available to deploy to Esterhold: what they do have would be needed elsewhere, I.E. logistic/supply to Ar, etc: only a couple could go to Esterhold). Even a few skyships (with the attendant mages) would be devistating to a massed army (which could also be countered by "regular" Alph. troops, while the skyships break up unit formations). Dispersal is the proper operational plan, and "visionary" leaders (I.E. the PCs) would be wise to adopt it. > > > little their is right now), they probably will not > > resort to guerrilla tactics because they simply will > > not know what such a thing is nor will they have the > > optimal means > > > Again, I think you're a bit pessimistic, this time from the Jennite > perspective. > > > Such organization was usually beyond the means of > > simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong > > conviction. > > > I could point out a few IRL pesant-based societies which engaged in such > things, most prominently the Viet Cong themselves. > As far as midieval & pre-midieval examples, I forget the name of the > northern Hispanian tribes (prolly related to the Basques) that gave the > Roman Legions so much trouble for over a century, but they used "light" > tactics akin to guerrllia war. Also, the Slavs as they moved into the > Balkans between the 6th-10th centuries rarely formed large "main battle" > armies of their own (they would sometimes be found in Avar & Bulgar hosts), > migrating & displacing with "small unit" tactics instead, and melting away > (only to return, like water flows back in the wake of a ship) if an army > passed through. > I'm sure others can think of more "IRL" examples if they want to. > > > > > Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its > > history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics > > beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of > > Esterhold certainly aren't an exception. > > > I disagree. I think general Jennite tradition (light raiding parties) along > with Esterhold Jen exposure to ideas (via Alphatia: use the education the > Alphatians provided to a few of them: using knowledge against the > conquerors is a very old trick). > > > > > Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world > > right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be > > was a product straight from the French Revolution > > where mass media was real. > > > I don't think so. All it would really need is one populizer. A lot of > "NACE" related things could be considered "too modern for the Mystaran > world right now" anyhow, if you were to stay within "strict" > Midieval/Renaissance frameworks. > Again, the main target would be the "opinion makers" (elites, urban > populations), not the ignorant rural "base". > As for the "Printing Press," Mystara actually already has a primitive > version (see the Book of Marvellous Magic). > > > > The American Revolutionary Army did not extensively > > use small unit tactics. Yes, the units were small, > > but they utilized a style of war that was very > > organized (don't know the technical term for it, but > > I'll call it "free fighting"). > > > Note that I didn't say "disorganized." the American Revolutionary army also > didn't "fight fair" (from an English perspective, using 19th century > tactics to stand toe to toe firing and accepting musket volleys would be > "fighting fair"). > > > Vietnam, believe it or not, used massed tactics > > religiously against China and Khmer until the rise of > > Vietnam's modern era with Ho Chi Minh. > > > They also used "massed tactics" on occasion even against the Americans, but > they picked their fights (thus the reference to gathering into larger units > to conduct opportunistic attacks for the Jennite proposal). > > > > > Adventurers are the focus of the campaign. As such, > > it is assumed that they will become revolutionary > > figures in the history of Mystara, people who > > innovated and changed the world. > > > I mentioned that in an earlier screed on the same subject. I envisioned > such people as forming the "commando" style strike squads, and also the > "visionary leadership" of any "rebel" movement. > > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:44:50 -0400 From: Kevin and Renee Costello Subject: [MYSTARA] - Classic D&D 6th edition- rgf marketplace Folks- I have a boxed Classic D&D game (6th and final edition, product # 1106) in near-mint condition, unused. The 24 "standup counters featuring the awesome monsters you face" are still in a continuous sheet, as the perforations have never been separated. The 4,6,8,10,12 and 20-sided dice are still in their unopened plastic bag. The 6 character figures and another 10-sided die are not in a bag, but in perfect condition. The Dungeon Master Screen, "full-color Dungeon Poster Map" and 128-page "Rules and Adventures Book" are also in perfect shape. The "Classic Dungeons and Dragons Page" mentions the "r.g.f. marketplace", which seems to be an auction page on which I can sell this item. Do any of you know the address of this page, so I could check it out? Alternatively, would any of you be interested in purchasing this Classic D&D game? It appears from the TSR page that this is no longer being sold. It originally sold for $20. Please respond to my e-mail address as well as the mystara-l list. Thanks! Kevin Costello stanrich@visi.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:13:03 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > Just hearsay it's ok. Like Morphail is a vampire, Malachie a werewolf, > Etienne an Immortal, Synn a dragon, Jaggar a famous dragon-hunter... it > looks as if each Glantrian Prince is rumored to be something else... > And this stinky little kobold prince is just...a kobold! Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:19:02 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Hello (from an Author) > Place a pea > is found from another room, under the matress! OH! OFCOURSE!!! Come on, what > experienced player, nevermind a newbie, would not only find the peas but come > up with that? Hey, don't underestimate the newbies. Experienced players have aquired a heavy paranoia usually which means that they simply don't try some ideas. :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:21:29 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > What about making him a half shadow elf / half Kobold : it can explains his > talent in magic and cleric spells use ... > According to "Orcs of Thar" he cannot cast clerical spells... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:42:49 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran "Alignments" > However, by and large, the majority of Mystarophiles consider (by now) > Alphatia to be a fairy-tale utopia, or at least the "better" (more "good") > of the two Empires*, while Thyatis is considered worse than Sauron's Mordor > by most. That is, IF folks were to apply a "good" or "evil" label to either > empire. Which isn't often done: they are considered nations, with national > interests, some "positive" and some "negative" characteristics, but they > aren't (usually) pigeon-holed into one alignment (a la Thay, or Shadowdale, > Zhentil Keep, or Cormyr). Jimmy, calm down. The big advantage of Alphatia is that all is possible AND it's embedded in a complete world of much more normal lands. I would never say that Alphatia is the realm of goodness and Thyatis the realm of evilness. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:24:33 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. > For example, I think that most of us could agree that assassination, based > on general principles, is wrong. However, most of us would also admire > Count von Staffenburg. Did you mean General Graf von Stauffenberg, who tried to kill Hitler? His courage is unquestionable, but his wisdom and his abilities were low. Otherwise he had killed Hitler sometimes between 1938 and 1940. It was an successless action in the final days of the "Third Empire". Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 01:08:18 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold >There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for >"Confederated", and typical of a confederation is >divisiveness in goals. A confederation seldom acts >in unison since its members are essentially sovereign >nations. Usually only overwhelming pressures bring >its members together. Furthermore to all these worthy points on the nature of what Confederation means, the NACE has competitors (remember Thyatis? :). Even excluding Thyatis, there are external rivals. Perhaps even the WDL, if they have their eyes on World Power. >Guerrilla tactics were almost never used before the >Iberian and Russian phases of the Napoleonic Wars. >Though seemingly a disorganized method of fighting, >conducting guerrilla campaigns were much more >difficult to organize than their massed counterparts. > Such organization was usually beyond the means of >simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong >conviction. The Swiss and the Irish had the powerful >conviction required of such measures, and they are >the only two groups I can think of that extensively >used guerrilla warfare before 1810. I agree with this... (Someone on the MML mentioned the Sid Meiers Civilisation as having a useful "tech gauge". Guerilla Warfare is well advanced on that scale...) On the other hand, simple terror tactics are easily carried out. Then rather than having a true guerilla army in Rebel Alliance style, there would simply be a few ringleaders doing what they can in a disorganised way. And then (like the Alliance) they would eventually join forces and negotiate an overall strategy. And the Resistance would become an Alliance... >Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its >history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics >beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of >Esterhold certainly aren't an exception. You forget magic though. Command and Communications is the key to modern warfare, guerrilla warfare included. OK, Mystarans havnt got access to radio or satellite technology - but they have got magic. >Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world >right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be >was a product straight from the French Revolution >where mass media was real. A majority of even >peasants could read by that time, and even those that >couldn't read usually could rely on someone else to >read the daily news posted at the local press for >them. But Alphatia is a highly advanced nation. Labelling as Renaissance is inaccurate - maybe technologically they are 15th century, but they have magic. >NACE is as literate as nations go in Mystara, but >press printing is devoid in NACE right now (Joshuan >Gallidox will eventually change that ;) ) and >peasants aren't widely literate. Only the big wigs >are generally aware of international situations, and >they generally have a stronger stomach in maintaining >goals that the public would rather see forgone. The NACE is not run by an impregnable aristocracy though. I imagine in a nation like the NACE the peasants would be quite well informed as to events (I can just imagine the illusionary newsreels...). Also, given the Chaotic nature of the Alphatian people, I dont think these guys are going to sit around like docile little peons. Surely they will be more inquisitive, taking an interest in whats going on, and speaking out. >Affecting the livelihood of small settlements and >miners is the best way to build opposition to the >rebels. The rebels would have to develop a sure way >of drawing brutal retaliation from the government. >(Once again, considering the general lack of >government in Esterhold, I doubt such a reaction is >likely.) Well, the "freedom fighters" only need to knock out a few Alphatians to stir a massive response. Real world terrorist attacks have little significant impact, beyond the impact made in world opinion. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 17:16:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. > > Did you mean General Graf von Stauffenberg, who tried to kill Hitler? > Yes, I did. My spelling flaw got the worst of me again. > His courage is unquestionable, but his wisdom and his abilities were low. > Yes, all that may be true. However, "good" doesn't nessisarily mean "high wisdom and intelligence." (all though thouse are good things to have, they don't imply superior, or inferior, virtue). Total morons can be "good" and geniuses can be "evil". of course, one would hope that true wisdom would lead to a life of virtue, but in D&D the Wisdom ability score doesn't imply "enlightenment" in the moral sense. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 17:26:12 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold > > Furthermore to all these worthy points on the nature of what Confederation > means, the NACE has competitors (remember Thyatis? :). Even excluding > Thyatis, there are external rivals. Perhaps even the WDL, if they have > their eyes on World Power. > First off, remember I'm only using the term "NACE" for convenience to represent "Outer World Alphatian States allied or joined in government." That's why I always, in this thread, refer to "NACE" and not NACE ("NACE" being a shorthand, for "pseudo-NACE", and NACE without the quote marks being the Net Almanac NACE.) In your own campaigns, this may not be, strictly speaking, the "confederation" (really, by behavior, more of a Federation, considering how unified they've behaved *so*far*). As far as these cpmpetitors/rivals, they all have their own problems (Thyatis' already discused ad homenum why they are a prostrate land of incompetency, incapable of anything whatsoever. As far as the WDL, any large-scale diversion of resources would be taken advantage of by the Master. And, as for Hule itself, they're busy absobing/holding onto Sind and scheming to reach into Darokin: IMO, what he *should* do is not try to conquer the place in one big grab, but go a city or two at the time. Hold the shoulders of Lake Amsorak (the hills), and not try to press for everything at once, but advance in stages). HKs are busy trying to conquer other areas, and IMO are already "overstreached" as well (especially if you're using the NA timeline, and they're busy in Davania, Norwold, and beating down revolts in Heldann itself). Some of these folks may send "arms and advisors" to Esterhold rebels, if only to tie down "NACE" assets, but none of them are going to spend a large amount of resources on the place. The Esterhold Jennites may be "different" from the Skothar Jen, but at least they have "adjacency" and history in common. Thus, direct support is more likely to come from Skotharian Jen, rather than nations a third of a hemisphere away. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:56:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > Yes, all that may be true. However, "good" doesn't nessisarily mean "high > wisdom and intelligence." (all though thouse are good things to have, they > don't imply superior, or inferior, virtue). > Total morons can be "good" and geniuses can be "evil". of course, one > would hope that true wisdom would lead to a life of virtue, but in D&D the > Wisdom ability score doesn't imply "enlightenment" in the moral sense. Just a little piece of information that isnt really adding to the discussion at all: In ancient greece, they made no difference between goodness, beauty/strength and truth. In fact the greek work often translated with goodness actually means perfection. This shows that the ancient greek had quite a different perspective on things. But maybe you all already knew this... Håvard, spewing out more useless information.. PS: I saw Hercules and the Amazons today. Can't say I was impressed... *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:24:21 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. James Ruhland wrote: > > > Did you mean General Graf von Stauffenberg, who tried to kill Hitler? > > > Yes, I did. My spelling flaw got the worst of me again. > > > His courage is unquestionable, but his wisdom and his abilities were low. > > > Yes, all that may be true. However, "good" doesn't nessisarily mean "high > wisdom and intelligence." (all though thouse are good things to have, they > don't imply superior, or inferior, virtue). > Total morons can be "good" and geniuses can be "evil". of course, one > would hope that true wisdom would lead to a life of virtue, but in D&D the > Wisdom ability score doesn't imply "enlightenment" in the moral sense. If this is the same guy I'm thinking about, good had nothing to do with it. He wanted to kill Hitler because he was ruining Germany's chances in the war. Probably thought he'd look much better in that chair too. More an example of evil feeding on itself. - -- This has been a Galwylin® Production galwylin@airnet.net Forgotten Realms Page - http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ Take the Favorite Heroes of the Realms Survey! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:01:04 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/12/98 8:03:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: > The best ay is probably the Nature/Demeanor White Wolf system. Quick, easy, > more descriptive than AD+D alignment. I too like the Nature/Demeanor idea of White Wolf. I usually end up creating original Nature/Demeanors since i don't really like the templates too much. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:00:58 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative In a message dated 8/12/98 1:37:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > FRP Personal Code > Player Name: {type name here} > Description > Character Name: > > Commonly Known As: > > Race, Age, Sex: > > General Physical Appearance: This form is very thorough, but i really don't think such a long form should be made out for a first level character. Usually i think that the character sheet takes a long enough time to fill out already, never mind filling out that form. Perhaps if the form were a bit shorter it would be easier to fill out and to refer to for later use. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:01:03 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/12/98 4:15:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ChristianG@vircom.co.za writes: > But what if your god (an immortal) comes down and tells you to do something? > (That paladin going about chopping up orcs since his god told him to.) Not really. If his immortal makes a normal request than it's one thing, but if it wasn't normal to be asked to slaughter a tribe of orcs, then the paladin should question it. He would know his Immortal and would probably think that he was being mislead by a third party. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:59:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. > Here's a strategy sketch for Jennite independance in Esterhold. Note > that it > is not nessissarily a critique of any person or almanac's perspective on > the Esterhold situation, but just a notional strategy. Some might find it > useful for their own campaigns, or perhaps something to critique. (much cut) A very good plan, James. I do hope the Almanac writers include something similar, as this would serve several purposes - 1)Give NACE some problems. They have it way too easy 2)Allow for a force of some power to emerge on Skothar, as the Jen to the east unite with their freed brethren to the west and maybe begin a return to the golden days before the influence of Rathanos 3)Allow a minor culture of the Mystara world to get more exposure Adam raised some technical problems with your approach, but the general idea is a good one. Or maybe I just became a strong fan of the Jennites during my last project. I hope the Almanac team gives this sort of idea consideration! I embarrassed myself, my team and my dog - Pirates pitcher Steve Parris, on not getting through one inning *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:54:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. > > In ancient greece, they made no difference between goodness, > beauty/strength and truth. In fact the greek work often translated with > goodness actually means perfection. > Well, when you talk about ancient greece, and the ancient Greeks, you're encompasing a lot in some, IMO, sweeping statements. Greek philosophy, of, say, Aristotle, encompased all these things, but was fairly precise about them in their particulars, and what constituted moral virtue. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #574 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, August 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 575 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Greeks and Norsemen (was:- Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment.) Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Greeks and Norsemen (was:- Terrorism, Assassination, andAlignment.) Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Nerd-WotI Immortals Vs: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Vs: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:57:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. > > 2)Allow for a force of some power to emerge on Skothar, as the Jen to the > east unite with their freed brethren to the west and maybe begin a return > to the golden days before the influence of Rathanos > They'll probably eventually give some prominence/attention to Skotharian nations, but even TSR didn't build Mystara in a year, so at least from that perspective (design time), "patience is a virtue." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 01:46:57 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment. In a message dated 98-08-15 19:32:14 EDT, you write: << If this is the same guy I'm thinking about, good had nothing to do with it. He wanted to kill Hitler because he was ruining Germany's chances in the war. Probably thought he'd look much better in that chair too. More an example of evil feeding on itself. >> Graf von Stauffenberg was an old army man (Heer not SS). in action he was badly wounded...mauled may be the better term. his torso was burnt and scarred, he had lost two fingers, lost the use of same hand and arm, and was blinded in one eye. oh yes....he was in a constant state of pain. Stauffenberg's motivation was to remove a madman. and you could toss in a bit of vengence for his pains. the conspirators were wanting to kill off hitler and the Heer's rivals the SS. this done, they hoped to gain a seperate peace with the western allies and wage war against the russians. it should be noted that there are numerous variations of motive. the above is more of a compilation/summary of the most common. to keep this mystara relevant....someone like Stauffenberg would be imo L (DnD) or LN (ADnD). the lawful aspect comes from them adhering to their oath and not taking direct action against him. yes...it's a paradox to veiw a bomb as being less direct that the luger between the eyes. ADnD wise the good comes in as they did see the error of their "beloved leader" and took a thought out concerted action against him. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:14:14 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Greeks and Norsemen (was:- Terrorism, Assassination, and Alignment.) On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > > In ancient greece, they made no difference between goodness, > > beauty/strength and truth. In fact the greek work often translated with > > goodness actually means perfection. > Well, when you talk about ancient greece, and the ancient Greeks, you're > encompasing a lot in some, IMO, sweeping statements. Greek philosophy, of, > say, Aristotle, encompased all these things, but was fairly precise about > them in their particulars, and what constituted moral virtue. Good points. However, AFAIK concepts of good and evil as we know them(more or less) weren't introduced before the time of Christianity. The ideal of perfection is very obvious in many of the greek legends. In many of the epics, the enemies of the heroes are praised for their strength or other good qualities. They merely end up as enemies because of the circumstances. Fate merely made them obstacles for the hero. The same thing is true about Ancient Norse culture. The worst thing a person can be is a 'Niding' which basically means a coward. The virtuous man would be true to Odins virues of Honesty, Hospitality, Courage and Loyality. Killing a man wasn't so bad as long as you didn't go about it in secret. (which would make you a coward who wasn't prepared to stand for what he had done) It could be interesting to bring these ideas into a Northern Reaches or Milenian campaign. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:24:41 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project Hmm.... So, Alexei, I take it your Immortal Project will be an ongoing thing? If so, could you email me a paragraph-long description of what the main goal is to be, and I will include it in the Project List? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:40:40 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennites of the Esterhold. Mischa said: >A very good plan, James. I do hope the Almanac writers include something >similar, as this would serve several purposes - > >1)Give NACE some problems. They have it way too easy > I'd have to agree here. Though I do know that some nasty things are in the works, I don't know what they are. I keep my focus to Davania and the HKs, but HK intervention in the IoD (as raised by one of the posters here) has not been ruled out. Besides, they have a score to settle with Helskir. >2)Allow for a force of some power to emerge on Skothar, as the Jen to the >east unite with their freed brethren to the west and maybe begin a return >to the golden days before the influence of Rathanos I'd like to see this. The Jennites are ignored, too simplistic. More light should shine their way - on Minaea too. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:10:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Greeks and Norsemen (was:- Terrorism, Assassination, andAlignment.) > perfection is very obvious in many of the greek legends. In many of the > epics, the enemies of the heroes are praised for their strength or other > good qualities. They merely end up as enemies because of the > circumstances. Fate merely made them obstacles for the hero. > I think that's still true, or could still be considered true within the scope of the game, which is one reason why I argued against an "anything goes" attitude in the Glantri/Alphatia example (the one where the PCs were going to lead "Terror Strikes" into Alphatia.) Alphatia is not a Hule or Denagoth, and Eridana is not Hosadus or the Shadow Lord. Glantri and Alphatia may be at war, and depending on your perspective you may think one or the other is on the 'right' side of the conflict, but that doesn't make the other "evil" and thus deserving of any treatment you can imagine. IMO, actually, to decide that anyone in opposition to you is evil, that itself is one of the self-rationalizations that truely evil folks use to justify their methods ("they are wrong, they oppose me and I'm right, therefore they are wicked, and deserving of harm"). A soldier (even a PC "supersoldier") who values his honor and understands the purpose (Telos) of his profession does not deliberately kill or injure ordinary people (non-combatant civilians and "innocents"). I think that should probably be considered true for most "normal" (non-wicked) Mystaran cultures, not just the Northmen and the Milenians. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 09:01:25 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative At 08:00 PM 8/15/98 EDT, Inconu@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 8/12/98 1:37:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >strawberry@jamm.com writes: > >> FRP Personal Code >> Player Name: {type name here} >> Description >> Character Name: >> >> Commonly Known As: >> >> Race, Age, Sex: >> >> General Physical Appearance: > > > >This form is very thorough, but i really don't think such a long form should >be made out for a first level character. Usually i think that the character >sheet takes a long enough time to fill out already, never mind filling out >that form. Perhaps if the form were a bit shorter it would be easier to fill >out and to refer to for later use. Well, yes, it is a long form -- but you should have seen the original I pared it down from (*yikes*!). ;-) As to filling it out for 1st level characters, we do that, but it doesn't have to be done /before/ play starts. All three of the DM's in our group (we have three separate Mystara-based campaigns happening at the moment) prefer that our Players try to fill in at least part of it ahead of time -- especially the background history part -- but we don't worry if it isn't. In fact, one of my current players has just never got around to filling it in, although I know she does have a very good grasp of what her PC is all about. Another thing too, is that not only are the players allowed to modify it as time goes on, they are /expected/ to do so. We assume that 1st level characters will usually have an idealistic view of the world and 'adventuring' and expect that their first adventure or two will cause them to start shifting their 'world view' to some degree. We tend to encourage the Players to leave the old information in place, separated out by square brackets [like this] so that both the Player and the DM can track the PC's growth over time. Want an example? One of my PC's is an MU from Minrothad named Katarina (Kat) Jenner. Here's one example of an adjusted answer in her Personal Code: - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 3.5 Under what circumstances would this character kill?: [She would never intentionally kill a known sentient being except, possibly, in self defence. Killing is reprehensible. Violent Crimes should be dealt with in a quick and decisive manner. Anyone who enjoys killing is a menace to society.] She doesn't hesitate to kill abominations, such as magical constructs or undead, especially if they are attacking her. She would never intentionally kill a sentient being that was known to have peaceful intentions. She would never kill a sentient being who was surrendering itself to her. She would kill a sentient being known to be at war with her country or the country of her current residence, if the circumstances demanded it. She still doesn't like killing, but has learned to recognize its occasional necessity. However, arbitrary, unecessary killing is reprehensible. Extremely Violent Crimes should be dealt with in a quick and decisive manner. Anyone who enjoys killing others is a menace to society. - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Note the increase in length and detail. Much of this changed because in her first few adventures (she's at level 3 now) she managed to convince her companions to do things like tie up the Kobolds ("who's home we've invaded") rather than kill them. They (of course) escaped and wreaked even more havok on the team later. She also encountered undead and other 'nasties' in circumstances that were either "kill or be killed". So, her idealism about the need and circumstances in which she would kill others changed. Another good example from Kat's Personal code is: - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 1.1 Please characterise this PC in one or two sentences: [She is a moral, ethical, idealist who is outgoing and interested in learning about the world around her.] She is a moral and ethical person, currently falling somewhere between an idealist and a pragmatist, because she has recently come to the conclusion that what is moral and/or ethical is not an absolute. - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Anyway, we like using the form instead of assigning alignments per se. It turns out, after reading through them (like Kat's) that you can usually find an aliginment trend (Kat is generally Lawful with tendancies towards Neutral when using the oD&D scale. In the AD&D scale she's probably LN with occasional tendancies towards LG or even true N.) Jenni PS: The numbers and questions from Kat's personal code might be a tad different from the one's I originally posted -- I know I've updated my Word 97 Template since I created the text version. It might even be a little shorter now. - -JAMM - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:25:41 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Hello, I am trying to put together a list of all Mystaran Immortals that don't appear in WotI, for my Immortal project. Below are the ones that I have so far, and I would appreciate if people checked this list and pointed out if I missed any. Arachne Prime Ganetra (*) Halfling Heroes Idris (*) Iliric Mrikitat Orisis (*) Ruaidhri Hawkbane The Saimpts of Renardy The Immortals marked with an asterisk are the ones I need more info on, so if anybody has some, please share it with me :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:51:19 EDT From: Carmegil@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals gareth *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:10:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals > > gareth > Is it just me, or is that a particularly undignified name for an Immortal? I can think of a *few* that would be worse ("Skippy the Temporial" comes to mind), but not many (ok, "Bob the God" is worse, but not by much.) "Nerd" Immortals, an incomplete list: Skippy Poindexter Sally Seymor Gareth Marge *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:08:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Jenni A. M. Merrifield wrote: > At 08:00 PM 8/15/98 EDT, Inconu@aol.com wrote: > >strawberry@jamm.com writes: Jenni: > >> FRP Personal Code > >> Player Name: {type name here} > >> Description > >> Character Name: > >> > >> Commonly Known As: > >> > >> Race, Age, Sex: > >> > >> General Physical Appearance: > > > > Inconu: > >This form is very thorough, but i really don't think such a long form should > >be made out for a first level character. Usually i think that the character > >sheet takes a long enough time to fill out already, never mind filling out > >that form. Perhaps if the form were a bit shorter it would be easier to fill > >out and to refer to for later use. Jenni: > Well, yes, it is a long form -- but you should have seen the original I > pared it down from (*yikes*!). ;-) Håvard: I would personally never use this in the way Jenni does. However, I think it is quite useful to look through this form every once in a while and think about what the answers would be like if I were to write them down. I rarely write down more than a couple of key words on the character sheet, but I have a complete concept of the characters personality in my head. Ofcourse this is problematic if a long time goes by between sessions, but generally I prefer this rather than writing several pages on my character. In my group, developing a personality for your character is seen as the responsibility of the individual player, so the GM will normally merely assume that the player has made up one. Ofcourse, if the PC suddenly starts acting very differently from what one would expect, the other PCs will react with surprise. Jenni: > As to filling it out for 1st level characters, we do that, but it doesn't > have to be done /before/ play starts. All three of the DM's in our group > (we have three separate Mystara-based campaigns happening at the moment) > prefer that our Players try to fill in at least part of it ahead of time -- > especially the background history part -- but we don't worry if it isn't. > In fact, one of my current players has just never got around to filling it > in, although I know she does have a very good grasp of what her PC is all > about. This is more or less the way I am too. Sometimes we just want to get down to playing right away. > Another thing too, is that not only are the players allowed to modify it > as time goes on, they are /expected/ to do so. We assume that 1st level > characters will usually have an idealistic view of the world and > 'adventuring' and expect that their first adventure or two will cause them > to start shifting their 'world view' to some degree. We tend to encourage > the Players to leave the old information in place, separated out by square > brackets [like this] so that both the Player and the DM can track the PC's > growth over time. Sounds reasonable. A personality isn't something static. It doesn't have to be with alignments either, but I think the alignment system encourages static personalities, even though experienced gamers might work their way around it. sincerely, Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:11:33 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > > gareth > Is it just me, or is that a particularly undignified name for an Immortal? > I can think of a *few* that would be worse ("Skippy the Temporial" comes > to mind), but not many (ok, "Bob the God" is worse, but not by much.) > "Nerd" Immortals, an incomplete list: > > Skippy > Poindexter > Sally > Seymor > Gareth > Marge Someone on this list suggested Garetha, as a more Sindi-souding name. I have the same problem with Petra, which is kind of a "nerd" name in Norway. (IMO) Håvard, the Immortal... *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:14:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > Arachne Prime > Ganetra (*) > Halfling Heroes > Idris (*) > Iliric > Mrikitat > Orisis (*) > Ruaidhri Hawkbane > The Saimpts of Renardy > > The Immortals marked with an asterisk are the ones I need more info on, so >if anybody has some, please share it with me :) Information on Idris and Ganetra are given in modules X11: Saga of the Shadowlord, and HWA3: Nightstorm, respectively. Not much info, though. Also, there are Stodos, the Frog God (from MSolo1: Blizzard Pass) and Gylgarid, the Minotaur Headed God (from X13: Crown of Ancient Glory). And some others scattered about here and there as well... - ------------------------ Cthuludrew, the Great Old One (aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student) "Actions have consequences." URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:42:36 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Nerd-WotI Immortals > > Someone on this list suggested Garetha, as a more Sindi-souding name. > I have the same problem with Petra, which is kind of a "nerd" name in > Norway. (IMO) > Garetha, or Garethis, or Garethia, is an improvement over "Gareth". IMO, "Bennekander" is also a "nerd" name (Rheddrian, OTOH, is much better). So then we have: "Nerd" Immortals, an incomplete list: Petra Gareth Bennekander All Halfling Immortals (they may be tough, but you can't wash the "nerd" off 'em, no matter how hard you scrub). Alphatia (c'mon: if you're gonna adopt the name of your country, you should be an emblem of its ideals: imperialistic oppression. She failed). Diamond (you may be a dragon, but your name? sounds like a hooker from Grenwitch Villiage). Faunus (ditto) Koryis Opal Pearl (another dragon, this time with a name right out of some grandparent's Bridge Club). Pflarr Ahmanni Turtlerider (Turtlerider? c'mon!) Arik Cretia (too much like "Cretin") Demogorgon (has always been a "nerd", and will always be a "nerd", though not as much as fat ol' Orcus, I guess). Gorm Marwdyn, "the Hanged Man" (advice: get over it). Palson, Paturna, Taroyas, and all the other "Greek God" Immortals (get your own backrounds, you feebs). Yav. Note, many of these are just "bad name" Immortals, and their "nerd" designation has nothing to do with their actual personality. Though for many. . . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:12:47 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals >> gareth >> >Is it just me, or is that a particularly undignified name for an Immortal? > Yeah, I think TSR is stuck on the name Gareth. They have at least one character named Garth or Gareth in each world. Sometimes more than one :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:15:23 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Vs: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals >Information on Idris and Ganetra are given in modules X11: Saga of the >Shadowlord, and HWA3: Nightstorm, respectively. Not much info, though. > >Also, there are Stodos, the Frog God (from MSolo1: Blizzard Pass) and >Gylgarid, the Minotaur Headed God (from X13: Crown of Ancient Glory). > Any chance someone could e-mail me privately the info that exists? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:41:34 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals >I am trying to put together a list of all Mystaran Immortals that don't appear in WotI, for my Immortal project. Below are the ones that I have so far, and I would appreciate if people checked this list and pointed out if I missed any. > >Arachne Prime >Ganetra (*) >Halfling Heroes >Idris (*) >Iliric >Mrikitat >Orisis (*) >Ruaidhri Hawkbane >The Saimpts of Renardy There's all those immortals from the original boxed set like Skuld, Ouranos, Hymir and lot's of others. There's all the PCs from the Immortal adventures who you might want to bring over - well Iliric and Mawdryn have already been brought over in such a manner. There's immortals from PC2 the creator of fanaere, creator of harpies, creator of gremlins and Grammatron. There's those two immortals from GAZ9 the creator of the Carven Oak and Oleyan. And I'm sure there are others elsewhere. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:02:59 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, stan wrote: > There's all those immortals from the original boxed set like Skuld, > Ouranos, Hymir and A lot of the immortals from the Gold Box are simply Known Immortals under a different name. There are lists of these name changes and a few other goodies on some of the many Mystaran pages out there (not a single one i can remember at present. :( ) Also, the WotI Immortals make up only a SMALL fraction of Immortals in the Multiverse. I'd say that more than 90% of Immortals don't deal with Mystara at all. I'd also like to propose an idea. This idea may possibly offend the multitudes of Gold Box fans out there too. What if there is more than one Full Hierarch? It seems really silly to say that there are only 5 36th level Immortals and they are all completely devoted to Mystara. It's a bit Mystaro-centric. (Though to some, that may be alright, given that Mystara is the Game world) There are thousands of 36th level mortals on Mystara. There are Millions of 36th level morals in the Multiverse. In the nightmare dimension, there may be millions of 36th level diaboli. So why not remove the implied "36th level = full Hierarch" Status from the Multiverse altogether? If there are Billions of Immortals in the Infinite Multiverse (The Known Multiverse, and other Dimensions) There has to be more than 5 full Hierarchs! I doubt that the Old ones would put a completely artificial "glass ceiling" at level 35, especially if they wanted Immortals to maybe one day transcend their existence. I'm not saying that we should remove the status of "reigning Hierarch of the sphere" That's important for beurocratic purposes. I'm simply proposing that level 36 Immortals don't nessecarily *have* to be the reigning Hierarch, and that there can be more than five in the entire Infinite Multiverse. Max IV - Back from a long vacation. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:27:50 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Cthulhudrew, The Great Old One wrote: > Also, there are Stodos, the Frog God (from MSolo1: Blizzard Pass) and > Gylgarid, the Minotaur Headed God (from X13: Crown of Ancient Glory). Just curious about one thing. Whats the difference between a Minotaur Headed God and a Bull Headed God? ;) Anyway, wasn't Gylgarid dealt with in one of the Grimoir articles? Or was that only one with a name that sounded like Gylgarid? Im not sure. Anyway, not all of these bizarre immortals need to be full immortals. Some may be Monster Rulers, Titans or Fiends. Gylgarid could be another identity of that Minotaur Monster Ruler... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #575 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, August 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 576 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:46:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. > It seems really silly to say that there are only 5 36th level Immortals > and they are all completely devoted to Mystara. It's a bit > Mystaro-centric. (Though to some, that may be alright, given that Mystara > is the Game world) Well, a Full Hierarch is a dude who's capable of keeping multiple balls in the air at a time. IMO, you don't get to Full Hierarch status without being able to seem to be everywhere at once (even if "seem" is the operative word). Full Hierarchs may *seem*, to Mystarans, to be "completely devoted" to them, but probably dozens of worlds feel that same thing. OTOH, though, one of the things I liked *least* about the Gold set was the # limits on Immortals at each level, which for reasons similar to yours I think were both artifician and in some cosmic sense unrealistic. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:03:34 +1000 From: stan Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Hierarchs and stuff. >> There's all those immortals from the original boxed set like Skuld, >> Ouranos, Hymir and > >A lot of the immortals from the Gold Box are simply Known Immortals under >a different name. There are lists of these name changes and a few other >goodies on some of the many Mystaran pages out there (not a single one i >can remember at present. :( ) I think you might me thinking of the article on other immortals on my site which I wrote. My musings there are not canon and therefore can be considered or disregarded by other people as they see fit. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:30:14 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals In a message dated 1998-08-16 14:23:10 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > I have the same problem with Petra, which is kind of a "nerd" name in > Norway. (IMO) That is interesting -- in the United States there is a model named "Petra" whom many of us regard as a minor goddess. ;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 03:18:10 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1998-08-16 14:23:10 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no > writes: > > I have the same problem with Petra, which is kind of a "nerd" name in > > Norway. (IMO) > That is interesting -- in the United States there is a model named "Petra" > whom many of us regard as a minor goddess. ;) Now that you mention it, I think I've seen pics of her.. Maybe this attitude will change amond Norwegians..? ;) Håvard, who really shouldn't be awake right now.. *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:29:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold James Ruhland wrote: <<>> There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for "Confederated", >><< <> Sure, it would be pessimistic to NACE. Unfortunately (and I hate being critical of their work considering its overall excellent quality), I think the writers and editors of the Poor Wizard's Almanac and JA didn't think through a few things regarding NACE. Foremost: For two thousand years, Alphatia's kingdoms were held together through an Emperor and a Wizards' Council. The kingdoms all answered to the Imperial Highness and not to each other. Needless to say, the remaining kingdoms after the sinking of Alphatia have little practical experience or tradition in conducting collaborative politics among themselves since there was always this Emperor to coordinate for them through decree. Coordinating effectively among themselves will take a few centuries of trial and error, and that's only *if* the Confederation lasts that long. Second: Without the unifying influence of Alphatia, the main players in the Confederation do not share that vital interest of getting the attention of the Emperor. They now don't hold even one vital interest to unify their actions. It's very hard to argue that Norwold is more concerned with Esterhold than with regaining her previously *vast* territory. It's also hard to argue that Thothia is more concerned with Esterhold than with avoiding becoming a Thyatian (or Heldannic or Ostlander) province. It's easier to argue that the Bellissarian kingdoms would take interest since they have no significant pressure upon them currently, but I've read enough to know that the Bellissarians would only get off their duffs when the Emperor issued a direct order that read like a threat. <<>> little their is right now), they probably will not resort to guerrilla tactics because they simply will not know what such a thing is nor will they have the optimal means >><< <> Obviously, from the *Jennite* perspective. But other perspectives . . . <<>> Such organization was usually beyond the means of simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong conviction. >><< <> They were active in this century, not before then. I was referring to cultures before the Napoleonic Wars (and I did specifically mention that). <> They were the Basques (but *never* call them a Hispanic people. They find it rather insulting ;) ) and Aquitanians. They did not use guerrilla tactics (their strikes were random and disorganized). The Romans had so much trouble with them due to their sheer determination not to prostrate before an outside force much like the the Celts of Brittany (always under constant assault since the rise of the Frankish Kingdom) who only became a part of France when one of their own became France's Queen (Anne I think). <> Didn't know about the Slavs, but at least the Magyars did this. That's one more group. And, um, I *think* the Javanese used guerrilla-style against Kublai Khan's invading flotilla (man, that guy didn't have luck with navies, did he?). But in the grand scheme of the thousands and thousands of cultures to exist before 1810, only a handful ever used guerrilla-style. After 1810, the use of guerrilla warfare skyrockets with the focus the Spanish and Cossacks bring to it along with better education (though Cossacks were sub-par by western European standards) and better communications (magic is a good equivalent for Mystara, but then again the spells required are usually beyond the means of "hedge" mages, and I guarantee an Esterhold rebel movement wouldn't be able to court many mages of adequate power). <<>>Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of Esterhold certainly aren't an exception.>><< <> Jennite tradition, if you scan various sources, is much like the mongol tradition of massed mounted combat. Once the Jennite civilization fell back into the stone age, it's obvious that these armies would shrink, but they'd remain together. And the Jennites have a raiding tradition, but the style of raids is not "guerrilla". They're organized, small, and quick just like guerrilla tactics dictates, but they lack the supply base, native unified populace, and focus upon a greater goal that comes with guerrilla tactics. Exposure to Alphatian ideas is expected (I even suggested that would happen), but those don't include guerrilla tactics of which the Alphatians are ignorant, nor have the Alphatians taught Esterhold Jennites all the proper elements used in guerrilla warfare. The only forces of Mystara that have a handle on mass politics are the Immortals (evidenced in WotI), for instance. <<>>Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be was a product straight from the French Revolution where mass media was real.>><< <> Does NACE have widespread printing presses? No. Does NACE have a 75-80% literate populace? No. And I'll reiterate that those that were politically important in that equivalent period usually had a cast iron stomach when dealing with a decision to continue a war without a visible ending. For example, even though English Barons were being sucked dry to conduct 130 years of warfare against France, they generally supported it to the bitter end. Even though France raided and levelled much of the southern english coast in retaliation to English agression (of which the English decision makers were fully aware), the wars continued with their brief respites. As far as conducting terrorist acts in urban centers of NACE, Esterhold rebels would have almost no success. Who has the magic, after all? It's kind of hard for even the most accomplished thief or mage/thief to sneak in and assassinate an archmage let alone just get past the front gate . . . <<>>The American Revolutionary Army did not extensively use small unit tactics. Yes, the units were small, but they utilized a style of war that was very organized (don't know the technical term for it, but I'll call it "free fighting").>><< <> That's right, you didn't. Did you imply the American Revolutionary Army was guerrilla? Yes (at least that's how I saw it). Was it in fact guerrilla? No. That was my point. <<>>the American Revolutionary army also didn't "fight fair" (from an English perspective, using 19th century tactics to stand toe to toe firing and accepting musket volleys would be "fighting fair").>><< Small misconception there. It was more like the Americans didn't fight properly. European armies marched in tight columns out of a practical necessity for the commanders. Usually armies comprised of peasants who'd rather not fight. By forcing them into tight columns, officers, who usually did want to fight since they got spoils and promotions, could immediately shoot anyone who tried to run. American free fighting tactics didn't give that assurance since everyone was relatively spread out on the battlefield. Such fighting required its practitioners to trust each other and willingly participate (both of which American rebels usually did). Officers in the English Army detested the impropriety of this fighting according to the textbook rather than its "fairness". But back to Mystara :) <<>>Vietnam, believe it or not, used massed tactics religiously against China and Khmer until the rise of Vietnam's modern era with Ho Chi Minh.>><< <> Oh, I didn't say the Vietnamese didn't used massed assaults during the Vietnam War (Thet, anyone? Maybe Dien Bien Phu?). I'm aware of how the war was conducted. But the Vietnamese were primarily massed fighters until after WWII when guerrilla tactics quickly became boss. That's what I was getting at. <<>>Adventurers are the focus of the campaign. As such, it is assumed that they will become revolutionary figures in the history of Mystara, people who innovated and changed the world.>><< <> Yeah, I was agreeing with you here :) <> I have to disagree here. It's because guerrilla warfare was never really formalized before the Spanish came up with the basics and Wellington refined a few points that guerrilla tactics weren't used often. Even the name itself, *guerrilla*, is Spanish (means little war in English) and was coined in that era. Had Jacqueries (peasant revolts) known of guerrilla tactics in all its intricacies, chivalry would have died *much* sooner than it did. <> Yes. But as you point out . . . <> . . . little if any air support is or will be deployed in Esterhold. <> Unless NACE wants to destroy its own army, skyships will not bombard a melee where there's a thorough mixing of the sides. Modern fighting with guns usually provides separation between opposing forces, so close quarters bombardment can have the desired effect. They *could* nail a massed force *before* it got into hand-to-hand. That's the problem PCs would have to solve, but it's easier solved using a tactic already available to them. Disperse, like you suggest. Just understand there's a difference between dispersal and full-fledged guerrilla tactics. It was more common for forces to divide, march, and then combine at the point of attack rather than form guerrilla groups during that equivalent era. That is a tactic not too many people in Mystara would know how to do, but it's much less complicated than guerrilla operations, and the PCs would still be considered visionary for refining a method like this sort of dispersal, called a *divided march*. <<>>There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for "Confederated", and typical of a confederation is divisiveness in goals. A confederation seldom acts in unison since its members are essentially sovereign nations. Usually only overwhelming pressures bring its members together.>><< | And I should have added that those pressures must be directly in common which they aren't for NACE members. And Rob wrote: <> Again, would Esterhold rebels have enough of it? I'm not sure. Communication spells required for such operations aren't exactly easy to perform, and those spells are needed in volume. But I'll shy away from a definitive no since I'd have to brush up on the PHB spells section for specific considerations. <> Touche ;) <> With the fall of the authoritarian Imperial/magistocratic regime, that will come with time. However, Alphatian nobles weren't exactly open with their subjects (those who knew nothing of magic were considered "stupid"), and old customs don't usually change in a few years. Also, most chaotic characters aren't interested in groups as large as a nation since nations are thoroughly, *thoroughly* *organized*. Note I said "usually". Then James wrote to Rob: <> ??? Not that I doubt that last statement, but where'd you find it? Yes the competitors have their own problems, but they are all on the offensive as their positions (save Heldann) are relatively secure. <> All agreed here :) <> One modification: *any* areas they can. <> Personally I think it was foolish for the canon writers to, in ten little game years, turn an Icelandic-style subsistence agricultural and underpopulated land into Superpower #2. If their intent was to create a story about a sleeper nation that had a sudden burst in power only to burn out as quickly (like Sweden did), I would have liked that. As things stand right now, I can't see the Heldannic Knights even staying in power in Heldann itself, so few are they and so little resources do they command. But anyway, the Net Almanac is at 1015, so we'll deal with Heldann in that context as it is presented. First, the Isle of Dawn is much like the Holy Roman Empire. No nation was respectable in the Renaissance to the early modern era unless it controlled a principality or two there. Outside powers to claim their greatness here include Denmark, Sweden, Russia, Poland, France, and England. Second, the Heldannic Knights in their zealotry (at least I think it's zealotry) would like to conquer as much land as possible bringing the "truth" of Vanya with them. What's between the Freeholds and their conquests in Davania? Why, the Isle of Dawn, that great imperial status maker, and it's even in a weakened state! I can't read the minds of the writers, but it'd make perfect sense for them to have Heldann send a conquest force across that short distance water. <> Considering the Jennites degenerated into incessant anarchy a millenia ago in Mystaran time, and also considering that Alphatia has had a similar period of time to Alphasize Esterhold's Jennite population, I doubt the Skothar Jennites would even consider Esterhold Jennites cousins (it's debatable that neighboring tribes of Skothar Jennites even recognize their common heritage in a positive light). And Mischa wrote: <<(much cut) A very good plan, James. I do hope the Almanac writers include something similar, as this would serve several purposes - 1)Give NACE some problems. They have it way too easy>> Actually, they have *many* problems. Well, maybe not the Bellissarians . . . <<2)Allow for a force of some power to emerge on Skothar, as the Jen to the east unite with their freed brethren to the west and maybe begin a return to the golden days before the influence of Rathanos 3)Allow a minor culture of the Mystara world to get more exposure Adam raised some technical problems with your approach, but the general idea is a good one. Or maybe I just became a strong fan of the Jennites during my last project. I hope the Almanac team gives this sort of idea consideration!>> Considering that even though most of those in Esterhold are Jennite, they're probably culturally Alphatian with minor holdovers from the Jen culture. And considering that The Steppes of Jen are as united as Renaissance Europe (as in not at all), they're unlikely to unify without a Khan-like figure. I don't see Esterhold and Jen unifying at all. But all this doesn't mean I don't want to see a new Esterhold regime! I repeat: *All this doesn't mean I don't want to see a new Esterhold regime!* Esterhold is in an interesting position to yield a unique culture, one that Skothar needs just for attention as finally having a native world player on its shores. Alphatian learning, culture, and magecraft are certainly entrenched here, and when that's mixed into the Jennite population, something cool emerges (I'm not sure what though. *That* is definitely worth a post by itself!). Mischa is absolutely right, and I should have said it myself plainly. I only meant to point out problems I noticed with your method for liberating Esterhold, particularly making a gigantic leap in socio-military evolution to guerrilla warfare. If you read my posts, you'll see I actually think it's easier than you proposed to accomplish that feat (but it'd still prove a monumental feat for the PCs). My key observation: The Alphatian overlords of Esterhold cannot rely upon its NACE compatriots for any help right now. It'll certainly take PC creativity to topple the Alphatian regime, but it's a goal tenable through a less radical (IMO non-anachronistic) approach. I must echo Mischa again. Skothar deserves exposure, and your idea for revolution in Esterhold is certainly one of the best I've heard for Mystara :) AC _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold James Ruhland wrote: <<>> There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for "Confederated", >><< <> Sure, it would be pessimistic to NACE. Unfortunately (and I hate being critical of their work considering its overall excellent quality), I think the writers and editors of the Poor Wizard's Almanac and JA didn't think through a few things regarding NACE. Foremost: For two thousand years, Alphatia's kingdoms were held together through an Emperor and a Wizards' Council. The kingdoms all answered to the Imperial Highness and not to each other. Needless to say, the remaining kingdoms after the sinking of Alphatia have little practical experience or tradition in conducting collaborative politics among themselves since there was always this Emperor to coordinate for them through decree. Coordinating effectively among themselves will take a few centuries of trial and error, and that's only *if* the Confederation lasts that long. Second: Without the unifying influence of Alphatia, the main players in the Confederation do not share that vital interest of getting the attention of the Emperor. They now don't hold even one vital interest to unify their actions. It's very hard to argue that Norwold is more concerned with Esterhold than with regaining her previously *vast* territory. It's also hard to argue that Thothia is more concerned with Esterhold than with avoiding becoming a Thyatian (or Heldannic or Ostlander) province. It's easier to argue that the Bellissarian kingdoms would take interest since they have no significant pressure upon them currently, but I've read enough to know that the Bellissarians would only get off their duffs when the Emperor issued a direct order that read like a threat. <<>> little their is right now), they probably will not resort to guerrilla tactics because they simply will not know what such a thing is nor will they have the optimal means >><< <> Obviously, from the *Jennite* perspective. But other perspectives . . . <<>> Such organization was usually beyond the means of simple peasants that lacked an extremely strong conviction. >><< <> They were active in this century, not before then. I was referring to cultures before the Napoleonic Wars (and I did specifically mention that). <> They were the Basques (but *never* call them a Hispanic people. They find it rather insulting ;) ) and Aquitanians. They did not use guerrilla tactics (their strikes were random and disorganized). The Romans had so much trouble with them due to their sheer determination not to prostrate before an outside force much like the the Celts of Brittany (always under constant assault since the rise of the Frankish Kingdom) who only became a part of France when one of their own became France's Queen (Anne I think). <> Didn't know about the Slavs, but at least the Magyars did this. That's one more group. And, um, I *think* the Javanese used guerrilla-style against Kublai Khan's invading flotilla (man, that guy didn't have luck with navies, did he?). But in the grand scheme of the thousands and thousands of cultures to exist before 1810, only a handful ever used guerrilla-style. After 1810, the use of guerrilla warfare skyrockets with the focus the Spanish and Cossacks bring to it along with better education (though Cossacks were sub-par by western European standards) and better communications (magic is a good equivalent for Mystara, but then again the spells required are usually beyond the means of "hedge" mages, and I guarantee an Esterhold rebel movement wouldn't be able to court many mages of adequate power). <<>>Basically, Mystara is at too early a phase in its history for widespread use of guerrilla tactics beyond the halfling communities. The Jennites of Esterhold certainly aren't an exception.>><< <> Jennite tradition, if you scan various sources, is much like the mongol tradition of massed mounted combat. Once the Jennite civilization fell back into the stone age, it's obvious that these armies would shrink, but they'd remain together. And the Jennites have a raiding tradition, but the style of raids is not "guerrilla". They're organized, small, and quick just like guerrilla tactics dictates, but they lack the supply base, native unified populace, and focus upon a greater goal that comes with guerrilla tactics. Exposure to Alphatian ideas is expected (I even suggested that would happen), but those don't include guerrilla tactics of which the Alphatians are ignorant, nor have the Alphatians taught Esterhold Jennites all the proper elements used in guerrilla warfare. The only forces of Mystara that have a handle on mass politics are the Immortals (evidenced in WotI), for instance. <<>>Again, this is too modern for the Mystaran world right now. Mass politics to swey the powers-that-be was a product straight from the French Revolution where mass media was real.>><< <> Does NACE have widespread printing presses? No. Does NACE have a 75-80% literate populace? No. And I'll reiterate that those that were politically important in that equivalent period usually had a cast iron stomach when dealing with a decision to continue a war without a visible ending. For example, even though English Barons were being sucked dry to conduct 130 years of warfare against France, they generally supported it to the bitter end. Even though France raided and levelled much of the southern english coast in retaliation to English agression (of which the English decision makers were fully aware), the wars continued with their brief respites. As far as conducting terrorist acts in urban centers of NACE, Esterhold rebels would have almost no success. Who has the magic, after all? It's kind of hard for even the most accomplished thief or mage/thief to sneak in and assassinate an archmage let alone just get past the front gate . . . <<>>The American Revolutionary Army did not extensively use small unit tactics. Yes, the units were small, but they utilized a style of war that was very organized (don't know the technical term for it, but I'll call it "free fighting").>><< <> That's right, you didn't. Did you imply the American Revolutionary Army was guerrilla? Yes (at least that's how I saw it). Was it in fact guerrilla? No. That was my point. <<>>the American Revolutionary army also didn't "fight fair" (from an English perspective, using 19th century tactics to stand toe to toe firing and accepting musket volleys would be "fighting fair").>><< Small misconception there. It was more like the Americans didn't fight properly. European armies marched in tight columns out of a practical necessity for the commanders. Usually armies comprised of peasants who'd rather not fight. By forcing them into tight columns, officers, who usually did want to fight since they got spoils and promotions, could immediately shoot anyone who tried to run. American free fighting tactics didn't give that assurance since everyone was relatively spread out on the battlefield. Such fighting required its practitioners to trust each other and willingly participate (both of which American rebels usually did). Officers in the English Army detested the impropriety of this fighting according to the textbook rather than its "fairness". But back to Mystara :) <<>>Vietnam, believe it or not, used massed tactics religiously against China and Khmer until the rise of Vietnam's modern era with Ho Chi Minh.>><< <> Oh, I didn't say the Vietnamese didn't used massed assaults during the Vietnam War (Thet, anyone? Maybe Dien Bien Phu?). I'm aware of how the war was conducted. But the Vietnamese were primarily massed fighters until after WWII when guerrilla tactics quickly became boss. That's what I was getting at. <<>>Adventurers are the focus of the campaign. As such, it is assumed that they will become revolutionary figures in the history of Mystara, people who innovated and changed the world.>><< <> Yeah, I was agreeing with you here :) <> I have to disagree here. It's because guerrilla warfare was never really formalized before the Spanish came up with the basics and Wellington refined a few points that guerrilla tactics weren't used often. Even the name itself, *guerrilla*, is Spanish (means little war in English) and was coined in that era. Had Jacqueries (peasant revolts) known of guerrilla tactics in all its intricacies, chivalry would have died *much* sooner than it did. <> Yes. But as you point out . . . <> . . . little if any air support is or will be deployed in Esterhold. <> Unless NACE wants to destroy its own army, skyships will not bombard a melee where there's a thorough mixing of the sides. Modern fighting with guns usually provides separation between opposing forces, so close quarters bombardment can have the desired effect. They *could* nail a massed force *before* it got into hand-to-hand. That's the problem PCs would have to solve, but it's easier solved using a tactic already available to them. Disperse, like you suggest. Just understand there's a difference between dispersal and full-fledged guerrilla tactics. It was more common for forces to divide, march, and then combine at the point of attack rather than form guerrilla groups during that equivalent era. That is a tactic not too many people in Mystara would know how to do, but it's much less complicated than guerrilla operations, and the PCs would still be considered visionary for refining a method like this sort of dispersal, called a *divided march*. <<>>There is a key letter in NACE. C stands for "Confederated", and typical of a confederation is divisiveness in goals. A confederation seldom acts in unison since its members are essentially sovereign nations. Usually only overwhelming pressures bring its members together.>><< | And I should have added that those pressures must be directly in common which they aren't for NACE members. And Rob wrote: <> Again, would Esterhold rebels have enough of it? I'm not sure. Communication spells required for such operations aren't exactly easy to perform, and those spells are needed in volume. But I'll shy away from a definitive no since I'd have to brush up on the PHB spells section for specific considerations. <> Touche ;) <> With the fall of the authoritarian Imperial/magistocratic regime, that will come with time. However, Alphatian nobles weren't exactly open with their subjects (those who knew nothing of magic were considered "stupid"), and old customs don't usually change in a few years. Also, most chaotic characters aren't interested in groups as large as a nation since nations are thoroughly, *thoroughly* *organized*. Note I said "usually". Then James wrote to Rob: <> ??? Not that I doubt that last statement, but where'd you find it? Yes the competitors have their own problems, but they are all on the offensive as their positions (save Heldann) are relatively secure. <> All agreed here :) <> One modification: *any* areas they can. <> Personally I think it was foolish for the canon writers to, in ten little game years, turn an Icelandic-style subsistence agricultural and underpopulated land into Superpower #2. If their intent was to create a story about a sleeper nation that had a sudden burst in power only to burn out as quickly (like Sweden did), I would have liked that. As things stand right now, I can't see the Heldannic Knights even staying in power in Heldann itself, so few are they and so little resources do they command. But anyway, the Net Almanac is at 1015, so we'll deal with Heldann in that context as it is presented. First, the Isle of Dawn is much like the Holy Roman Empire. No nation was respectable in the Renaissance to the early modern era unless it controlled a principality or two there. Outside powers to claim their greatness here include Denmark, Sweden, Russia, Poland, France, and England. Second, the Heldannic Knights in their zealotry (at least I think it's zealotry) would like to conquer as much land as possible bringing the "truth" of Vanya with them. What's between the Freeholds and their conquests in Davania? Why, the Isle of Dawn, that great imperial status maker, and it's even in a weakened state! I can't read the minds of the writers, but it'd make perfect sense for them to have Heldann send a conquest force across that short distance water. <> Considering the Jennites degenerated into incessant anarchy a millenia ago in Mystaran time, and also considering that Alphatia has had a similar period of time to Alphasize Esterhold's Jennite population, I doubt the Skothar Jennites would even consider Esterhold Jennites cousins (it's debatable that neighboring tribes of Skothar Jennites even recognize their common heritage in a positive light). And Mischa wrote: <<(much cut) A very good plan, James. I do hope the Almanac writers include something similar, as this would serve several purposes - 1)Give NACE some problems. They have it way too easy>> Actually, they have *many* problems. Well, maybe not the Bellissarians . . . <<2)Allow for a force of some power to emerge on Skothar, as the Jen to the east unite with their freed brethren to the west and maybe begin a return to the golden days before the influence of Rathanos 3)Allow a minor culture of the Mystara world to get more exposure Adam raised some technical problems with your approach, but the general idea is a good one. Or maybe I just became a strong fan of the Jennites during my last project. I hope the Almanac team gives this sort of idea consideration!>> Considering that even though most of those in Esterhold are Jennite, they're probably culturally Alphatian with minor holdovers from the Jen culture. And considering that The Steppes of Jen are as united as Renaissance Europe (as in not at all), they're unlikely to unify without a Khan-like figure. I don't see Esterhold and Jen unifying at all. But all this doesn't mean I don't want to see a new Esterhold regime! I repeat: *All this doesn't mean I don't want to see a new Esterhold regime!* Esterhold is in an interesting position to yield a unique culture, one that Skothar needs just for attention as finally having a native world player on its shores. Alphatian learning, culture, and magecraft are certainly entrenched here, and when that's mixed into the Jennite population, something cool emerges (I'm not sure what though. *That* is definitely worth a post by itself!). Mischa is absolutely right, and I should have said it myself plainly. I only meant to point out problems I noticed with your method for liberating Esterhold, particularly making a gigantic leap in socio-military evolution to guerrilla warfare. If you read my posts, you'll see I actually think it's easier than you proposed to accomplish that feat (but it'd still prove a monumental feat for the PCs). My key observation: The Alphatian overlords of Esterhold cannot rely upon its NACE compatriots for any help right now. It'll certainly take PC creativity to topple the Alphatian regime, but it's a goal tenable through a less radical (IMO non-anachronistic) approach. I must echo Mischa again. Skothar deserves exposure, and your idea for revolution in Esterhold is certainly one of the best I've heard for Mystara :) AC _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #576 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, August 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 577 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Yikes!!! My Bad . . . [MYSTARA] - cards to dice Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Whoneeds 'em?) Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice RE: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol [MYSTARA] - Old King Kol (was Re: Kol) Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Yikes!!! My Bad . . . Sorry for the multiple post, especially considering how long just one was! It won't happen again :) AC _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 05:10:52 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice can anybody out there help me, i really love playing traditanal AD&D but i would like to put some marvel superheroes in my quests as players, nonplayer characters, and monsters, does anybody know how to take characters from the marvel games & put them into AD&D if so give me an example with the following stats CALLING: animal nature HINDERANCES:frenzied PERSONALITY:honorable, loner, fierce warrior, respectful of japanese culture, loves strong wonen, troubling sense of humor. SKILLS:brawling, knives, natural weapons, swords;contingent action, fast exit, marksmanship, martial arts; espionage, japanese lore; animal handling, intimidation, survival, tracking POWERS: claws(bone)+2, (adamantiam)+5, empathy14(carnivorous animals only)enhanced senses(all)16, regeneration15, resistance to poison and disease+12 STRENGTH=8A, INTELLECT=6C, AGILITY=10A, WILLPOWER=10A, HAND SIZE=5(30) EDGE=3 please if you can help me make an AD&D character out of this i will be very greatful *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:03:59 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/14/98 4:12:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > So then you're saying that the ends justify the means, eh? > How far does that extend? Torture? Strikes aimed at civilian populations? > If the enemy leader tells you to kill 10 children, and he'll stop the war > (and you verify that he is being truthful), you then kill 10 children? > I think that I would have to reject that attitude ("the ends justify the > means") out of hand, if I were good. The answer to those questions would depend on the other half of his alignment, but let me try to clarify my views without including the law/chaos axis for now.... Realize that good is on the extreme side (as evil is). This to me, means that some would go to lengths such as self-sacrifice in order to accomplish his goals. If hundreds of civilians were dying every day and the sacrifice of 10 would end this, then i believe a good character would do it for the rest of the people. A neutral character would have a much more difficult time in choosing and would probably not be able to live with making such a radical decision. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:04:04 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/14/98 4:14:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > > 1) deliberatly targeting innocent civilians in "terror strikes" is a > typically "evil" act in fantasy genras. > 2) you are more likely to provoke the enemy > Let's just ask the Alphatiaphiles: your nation is being subject to > terrorist attacks directed at noncombatants. Do you: My campaigns usually concentrates more on realism than fantasy, which of course isn't normal, but i don't think it matters much with the good/evil scenario here. War is war, there are no rules. Both countries are agianst eachother and, (in such a hot war as Glantri/Alphatia was) they know there will be many lives taken on both sides. You could call each killing an evil act, when truth really is that it doesn't matter how one side wins, just as long as there is a winner and a loser at the end. If you want to win, but make it look pretty, then your chances of sucess begin decreasing. Certain countries think it's unfair to attack civilians or allow women to fight in the army, but these moral issues don't affect the good/evil of the particular event. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:04:07 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Whoneeds 'em?) In a message dated 8/15/98 7:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > > I would be very hesitant to penalize any of my friends for 'bad > roleplaying'. In fact it would make me feel like a hypocrite. It usually helps me (when DMing) to have a talk with the player after the game and ask why his character did what he did. Many times I've been suprised into finding out that the roleplaying was actually excellent and was in need of a reward and not a penalty. It's important for the DM to be in contact with his players and to know what's in thier characters' minds. Or, at least, it's helped my campaigns a lot. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:08:48 +0200 (EET DST) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice John Normand wrote: > can anybody out there help me, i really love playing traditanal AD&D but > i would like to put some marvel superheroes in my quests as players, > nonplayer characters, and monsters, does anybody know how to take > characters from the marvel games & put them into AD&D if so give me an > example with the following stats > please if you can help me make an AD&D character out of this i will be > very greatful Doesn't seem like the Marvel Superheroes game I know... but anyway.. It's Easy. Just do it as it pleases You most. I'll give a try, as the question was nicely given... :) First lets start by giving him a name. We could call him, say Wolwerine :) He must be Chaotic Good, as he is honorable, but frenzies sometimes.. Then his stats: St 14 (strong, but not wery strong) In 13 (due to senses) Wi 9 (can not control his temper) De 16 (wery agile) Co 18 Cha 8 (angry and annoying) Hd and hp's as neccessary, say 9 HD, 90 hp's armor class 0 (adamantium) attacs: 2 or 1 (claw/claw or by weapon) Thaco 9 (claws) or 11(weapons) damage: 1d8/1d8 r by weapon morale: 12 (great willpower) special: regenerates 1hp/round extra good senses and so forth. the rest is roleplaying... - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:28:27 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative In a message dated 8/16/98 2:21:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > > Sounds reasonable. A personality isn't something static. It doesn't have > to be with alignments either, but I think the alignment system encourages > static personalities, even though experienced gamers might work their way > around it. Although i like the alignment system a lot, i usually now just use them as a reference and nothing more. If there was an alignment system made for all personalities there would be quite a few more than nine. I think TSR knew this, but if they came out with a 81 or 6561 alignment chart instead of the nine.....hmmm.... well it could be a little confusing and time consuming to pick out the correct one. In other words, i agree that most of the character should be in the player's head. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:28:26 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative In a message dated 8/16/98 12:18:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, strawberry@jamm.com writes: > As to filling it out for 1st level characters, we do that, but it doesn't > have to be done /before/ play starts. All three of the DM's in our group > (we have three separate Mystara-based campaigns happening at the moment) > prefer that our Players try to fill in at least part of it ahead of time -- > especially the background history part -- but we don't worry if it isn't. Okay, i understand this better now. I too, like to have the character have a detailed history and some personal goals in his life before the adventuring career starts. I then run a prelude that's a one on one (DM and player) adventure, that roleplays through part or all of the character's history leading up to where the campaign starts. I've found this way makes it much easier for the character to be able to refer to thier history since they actually roleplayed through it. I got this idea from another DM who got it from the White Wolf system and i've been using it for a couple of years now, and it seems to work great. Anyone else have similar exposure for character backrounds in this way? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:50:55 EDT From: MAESTROPI@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice <> i'm not sure about the cards, but there used to be (and maybe still is) a role playing game called Marvel Super Heroes. it followed a 100 point ability score system, one that o found messed well with od&d's immortals rules 100 point ability scores. as far as ad&d or the cards, i'm afraid your on your own... Maestro *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:56:09 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice thank you so much Anias Pasi wrote: > John Normand wrote: > > can anybody out there help me, i really love playing traditanal AD&D but > > i would like to put some marvel superheroes in my quests as players, > > nonplayer characters, and monsters, does anybody know how to take > > characters from the marvel games & put them into AD&D if so give me an > > example with the following stats > > please if you can help me make an AD&D character out of this i will be > > very greatful > > Doesn't seem like the Marvel Superheroes game I know... but anyway.. > It's Easy. Just do it as it pleases You most. I'll give a try, as > the question was nicely given... :) > > First lets start by giving him a name. We could call him, > say Wolwerine :) > > He must be Chaotic Good, as he is honorable, but frenzies sometimes.. > > Then his stats: > St 14 (strong, but not wery strong) > In 13 (due to senses) > Wi 9 (can not control his temper) > De 16 (wery agile) > Co 18 > Cha 8 (angry and annoying) > > Hd and hp's as neccessary, say 9 HD, 90 hp's > armor class 0 (adamantium) > attacs: 2 or 1 (claw/claw or by weapon) > Thaco 9 (claws) or 11(weapons) > damage: 1d8/1d8 r by weapon > morale: 12 (great willpower) > > special: regenerates 1hp/round > extra good senses > > > and so forth. the rest is roleplaying... > > -- > X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X > X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X > X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:26:28 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative For experienced players (not newbies) I think that a character history (preferably long) is an invaluable aid to the DM. Also it makes the setting much more real for that player. I have a few people in my group and each has a different attitude to making a character. Some say 'I want to be a cleric' and then expect me to make the character, others write a long and interesting history. This I have once used to great success (so much so that the adventure I planed was totally sidetracked as the party starts to help the players friend who sold 'fake' monster parts to a passing mage). So I like my players to give me as much history as possible. I am also trying to get them to help with the setting (people/places/history, etc...) has anybody got any hints how I might go about this? On this reward good role-playing : Why does 'You played in your alignment' give you XP? I think that this is . Why should the player say before hand how he is going to play his character (ok give the DM an idea fine, but exactly?) The character could never before been given the order 'Go kill the orc camp' and never been so afraid in his life (ok the player is saying things like 'MU ha ha ha' but then he's CE). The only reason that I love the 'FRP Personal Code' document is that it help's develop the character,( not restrict it like 'You did not play in character- loose 1000 xp'). Your character is your own. Why should someone say things like 'He wouldn't do that', he would, you made him do it. (his LG sword might not like it, and his god might stop giving him spells, but he can do it) The only things that I consider bad role-playing is confusing player knowledge with character knowledge. That Why I use alignments but not for players: players have their alignments chosen not by paper but by their actions. Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za > -----Original Message----- > From: Inconu@aol.com [SMTP:Inconu@aol.com] > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment > Alternative > > strawberry@jamm.com writes: > > FRP Personal Code > > Player Name: {type name here} > > Description > > Character Name: > > > > Commonly Known As: > > > > Race, Age, Sex: > > > > General Physical Appearance: > > > > This form is very thorough, but i really don't think such a long form > should > be made out for a first level character. Usually i think that the > character > sheet takes a long enough time to fill out already, never mind filling out > that form. Perhaps if the form were a bit shorter it would be easier to > fill > out and to refer to for later use. > > -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold (MUCH SNIPPAGE) > considering that Alphatia has had a similar period of > time to Alphasize Esterhold's Jennite population, Alphatia doesn't seem very efficient at forcing its culture on others though with their ethnocentric outlook. The Thyatian method of assimilation may have caused their colonies to be more like them but I don't see it happening under Alphatian rule. > I doubt the Skothar Jennites would even consider > Esterhold Jennites cousins DoTE would seem to offer contrary evidence. It points out (pg 65, DM's book) that the eastern Jennites had been making (sporadic) war on the Alphatian invaders. One paragraph later it again mentions that the free Jennite tribes pull off 'occasional raids and military sorties' on the Alphatian slaveholders. I got the feeling that their goal in this was to free their captive brethren, showing solidarity on their behalf. The Campaign Use section on that page also talks of a potential slave rebellion if the prince of a free tribe is killed or a possible massive Jennite invasion of Esterhold. Even in the days of Alphatia's greatness, the eastern Jennites seemed ready to try to knock them out and to be joined in the matter by their enslaved brethren. Now that Alphatia/NACE is at a weaker position, I see this type of unified Jennite independence movement becoming more possible. You mentioned that unifying the tribes would take a charismatic figure..I don't see any reason not to introduce a new key NPC on the scene now that the old guard are dying off (Muglai Khan [sp?] Thincol.) > Considering that even though most of those in > Esterhold are Jennite, they're probably culturally > Alphatian with minor holdovers from the Jen culture. I certainly didn't get that impression. They seem to hate their Alphatian overlords, not mimic them. The Alphatian cultural haughtiness would be enough to turn them off even without the centuries of enslavement factor. > Esterhold is in an interesting position to yield a > unique culture, one that Skothar needs just for > attention as finally having a native world player on > its shores. Yep! > Alphatian learning, culture, and > magecraft are certainly entrenched here, and when > that's mixed into the Jennite population, something > cool emerges (I'm not sure what though. *That* is > definitely worth a post by itself!). Herve? Haavard? (Sorry, guys, I still confuse you two after two+ years here) also suggested a remnant or two of Blackmoor tech appearing on the scene, seeing as how this was the original sight of that power. I personally would prefer seeing the Jennites return to their glory days with a culture similar to that present then rather than adapting features of a heathen magocracy..perhaps a few features of Alphatia can be put in but I personally would prefer to see the Jennites maintain their culture. > Mischa is absolutely right I am? Woo Hoo! (Nice sophisticated note to finish the post on, huh?) I embarrassed myself, my team and my dog - Pirates pitcher Steve Parris, on not getting through one inning *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:56:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold > > They were active in this century, not before then. I > was referring to cultures before the Napoleonic Wars > (and I did specifically mention that). > Actually, as far as the Vietnamese go, they have a 2 millenium tradition of using such methods to defeat invaders (usually the Chinese). The Armenians used "mixed" tactics (frequently "real" armies, but not infrequently a more dispersed style) to maintain autonomy and/or semi-autonomy from the time of the Hellenistic states up until the early 11th Century. > > But in the grand scheme of the thousands and > thousands of cultures to exist before 1810, only a > handful ever used guerrilla-style. > Yes. but it is the exceptions that are interesting, because the "exceptions" show willingness to adapt tactics to their strategic circumstances. > > Jennite tradition, if you scan various sources, is > much like the mongol tradition of massed mounted > combat. > The Ethengari are the Mongols. The Jennites are more like less centralized nomadic societies, IMO. > > Does NACE have widespread printing presses? No. > Does NACE have a 75-80% literate populace? No. > Does that matter? No. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:09:43 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > My campaigns usually concentrates more on realism than fantasy, which of > course isn't normal, but i don't think it matters much with the good/evil > scenario here. War is war, there are no rules. > Firstly, their may or may not be "no rules" in war. Clearly, IMO, you don't know that much about warfair, because this is incorrect, not just in regards to the present, but in regards to the past. But let's accept that statement at face value, and pretend that it is true. There are "no rules" in warfair, but that doesn't eliminate the paradoxical logic of strategy. If the Alphatians followed your logic, they would initiate the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" event immediately. Note that, interestingly, this event takes place shortly after the "Nuking" of Sundsvall. I think you place too much priority on "rational" thinking during war. Alphatians in general may know and accept that "war is hell", but that's different from being burned in their homes by terror squads from some petty nation, and having their relatives killed by said "murderous scum" randomly and without reason. The Thousand Wizards may be apathetic in general and/or interested in other things, but strikes against the Alphatian "heartland" may be the *one* thing guaranteed to goad them into "decisive action." "Let's go blast them quick, these petty wannabe Glantrians, teach them a lesson *NO ONE* will forget. Bastards killed my favorite slave!". Rationally *knowing* that anything can happen in your kind of "Total War" (a modern inovation, btw), and having it pressed home in such a way. Well, let's just say that the Alphatian response to a "Total War" attitude from their enemies will be simmilar to Ike's "Massive Retaliation" "strategy" from the mid-50s (popularly known as "Nuke Glantri till it Glows"). Do the Glantrians *really* want to engage in "Total War" against a nation that dwarfs them in power? Perhaps they should reconsider. > Certain countries think it's unfair to attack civilians or allow women to > fight in the army, but these moral issues don't affect the good/evil of the > particular event. > A flawed argument if I ever saw one. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:20:25 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice The new Marvel Card game from TSR will probably include conversion rules. If not they are in the SAGA rules for Krynn 5th age. The new Marvel game also uses the SAGA system so using stuff from Krynn 5th age should probably work well. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:18:17 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Non-WotI Immortals At 07:30 PM 8/16/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 1998-08-16 14:23:10 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no >writes: > >> I have the same problem with Petra, which is kind of a "nerd" name in >> Norway. (IMO) > >That is interesting -- in the United States there is a model named "Petra" >whom many of us regard as a minor goddess. ;) Hmm..whenever I think of Petra, I think of the floating eye-ball monster from the Legend Of Zelda. :) Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:33:57 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol > Do I see Jamuga Khan praising a Glantrian prince? :) I only remember you that a level 20 kobold AND level 6 wokani can easily tear apart some first level humans. BTW, hadn#t we come to the agreement that King Kol isn't a real Glantrian prince anyway? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:23:13 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Old King Kol (was Re: Kol) At 08:33 PM 8/17/98 +0200, Jamuga Khan wrote: >BTW, hadn't we come to the agreement that King Kol isn't >a real Glantrian prince anyway? Old King Kol was a merry ol' soul, and a merry ol' soul was he. He called for his pipe and he called for his bowl and he called for his fiddler's three. ;-) {sorry, couldn't resist...} Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:03:51 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > Firstly, their may or may not be "no rules" in war. Clearly, IMO, you >don't know that much about warfair, because this is incorrect, not just in >regards to the present, but in regards to the past. But let's accept that >statement at face value, and pretend that it is true. In total war a nation will do whatever necessary to secure victory in most cases. However, certain acts (nukes, chemical warfare, atrocities etc.) are sure to cause more trouble to the nation employing them. At least, thats my cynical view... > There are "no rules" in warfair, but that doesn't eliminate the >paradoxical logic of strategy. If the Alphatians followed your logic, they >would initiate the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" event immediately. Note >that, interestingly, this event takes place shortly after the "Nuking" of >Sundsvall. There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri back again... Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. A strange game... The only winning move is not to play... (Joshua5) >Glows"). Do the Glantrians *really* want to engage in "Total War" against a >nation that dwarfs them in power? > Perhaps they should reconsider. On the other hand, even a couple of 20th level mages could utterly waste any nation, IMO. Just summon a Balor, and deliberately miscast it so its free. Balor then summons more balors, who summon more balors etc etc etc. Nobody wins... Thats the problem with AD+D lower planars. As soon as one turns up, the horde gathers. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:54:55 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Kol In a message dated 98-08-17 15:02:16 EDT, you write: << BTW, hadn#t we come to the agreement that King Kol isn't a real Glantrian prince anyway? >> Sorry, but why not? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #577 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, August 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 578 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... getting your ass kicked through "successful" Terror Strikes [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of...Strategy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:37:35 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: > There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they > wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri > back again... > > Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. "War is about honour. Show your enemy the respect he deserves. A war is not settled by murdering women and children. It is settled by soldiers. It is a soldiers right and a soldiers honour." - Cadeilos, Thyatian Legionary. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:33:34 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... getting your ass kicked through "successful" Terror Strikes > > In total war a nation will do whatever necessary to secure victory in most > cases. However, certain acts (nukes, chemical warfare, atrocities etc.) are > sure to cause more trouble to the nation employing them. > Again, though: there has been a lot of talk about what is a modern anachronism and what is not lately, but the concept of "Total War" is certainly a "modern" one (though I could point to past wars that could be considered "Total"). However, the key point is "certain acts. . .are sure to cause more trouble to the nation employing them." Strategically counterproductive, one could say. And, in the post quoted above, that's what I tried to point out: in addition to being a particularly grubby, sleezy way to conduct "warfair", the strategy of "Terror Strikes" by Glantri which are advocated by some are likely to provoke a unwelcomed reaction. In fact, paradoxically, the more *successful* such strikes are, the *worse* (not better) things are likely to get for Glantri. Failed "terror strikes" will provoke derision and apathy, but strikes that cause widespread death and destruction in the Alphatian homeland (such as "accidentally" befalls Sundsvall later) are likely to provoke a "comensurate response:" one that the Glantrians can't defend against, and which will leave their nation a barren pit of despair. Folks really should read more about strategy. I quote from Luttwak, P. 222-223: "Having done for the Americans what the Americans could not do for themselves, bringing them unequivocally into the war, the Japanese could have overcome their failure of statecraft only by invading a country that they should never have challenged in the first place. . .To be sure, the forces of imperial Japan, even if pulled back from China and everywhere else, could never have been successful in that venture, and of course no such invasion was even contemplated. So the best Japanese option after Pearl Harbor was to sue immediately for peace, barganing away Japan's ability to resist eventual defeat for some years in exchange for whatever the United States would concede to avoid having to fight for its victory. . . . ". . . .At the level of grand strategy, in the confluence of the vertical dimension and the horizontal, the latter was so adverse for Japan that tactical and operational success at Pearl Harbor was actually worse than failure would have been. "The case is far from unique. It is indeed common for tactical achievement, even when quite brilliant [supremely planned & exectuted "Terror Strikes" against Alphatia], to become counterproductive at the level of grand strategy [OOPS! There goes Glantri City!]. All that is needed to make less out of more in this way is a sufficient disharmony between the dimensions. If, for example, the diplomatic and propaganda effects of a bombing [or "Terror Strike"] campaign are adverse, more bombing is worse than less bombing, and accurate destructive bombing is worse than ineffectual bombing. If there is a severe disharmony between the *levels* of the vertical dimension, then military actions simply fail, as we have seen [well, read the book, then you'll see]. But when there is disharmony *between* the dimensions, vertical success can be worse than failure." > > Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. > There are rules (if not morality), and they are primarily intended to secure such "advantages" (I.E. Country A takes prisoners and doesn't deliberately starve them in the hopes, usually achieved, that Country B will do the same for Country A's soldiers captured in battle. Ransom was the usual result. Simmilarly, most "sacks" of a fortress or a city are limited in their distructiveness. Noitable counter-examples are notorious precisely because of their distinct, exceptional savagery [Crusaders at Jerusalem: note that their actions in Antioch, Tripoli, etc. were *not* of such extreme severety. The "Crusader" sack of Constantinople & the ItNorman sack of Thessaloniki are also "notorious" exceptions to the "general rule" which places some limits on how venal and savage a plundering host behaves.]). Usually, in the past, bouts of "Total Warfair" (I.E. the thirty years war), where the "rules" of conduct (or, if you will, "Chivalry") were forgotten are followed by an extensive period where there is a "rejuvination" of the "old standards" of (relitively) civil conduct (the brutal destructiveness serves as a pragmatic reminder that these "rules" serve a practical purpose. We tend to think that our age is unique in it's ability to destroy whole civilizations because of the destructive power of our bombs, gasses, bioweapons, but it is not: large areas of Germany were a blighted wasteland by the end of the Thirty Years War.) If *all* wars were fought with such savage destructiveness, without limits on conduct, then some of your more endemic wars in history would have been shorter than they were (the Thirty Years War actually would have ended a lot sooner if only the "in Theatre" parties had been the participants, however, outside parties which were spared the distruction on their own lands kept it going). > > Thats the problem with AD+D lower planars. As soon as one turns up, the > horde gathers. > Well, you don't even need that. All you need is an uncaring attitude and a few Teleportation Platforms (what are "Teleportation Platforms?" Basically, skip building a Man of War, just build a large platform enchanted to Teleport, load it up with whatever "goodies" you wish to "deliver" to the target of your ire, teleport to a relitively secluded spot, pre-dawn, unload, Teleport back, load up more "goodies", and repeat until "done.") The "goodies" can even be "offloaded" in places such as Warehouses in cities (Scryed beforehand); in other words, "Creative Destruction" (but not in the sense Shumpeter meant the term). "Goodies" can include armies (followed by their supplies), monsters, "munitions" and some kind of "guidance" system (Zombies, for example), and whatever else you can think of. Of course, all this depends on how you want wars to be fought in your campaigns (this "Teleportation Platform" scheme, which came up in another form [wormholes, IIRC] during an earlier discussion, is the logical conclusion of a Mystaran "Total War" strategy.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:44:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Jennites of the Esterhold James Ruhland wrote: <<>>But in the grand scheme of the thousands and thousands of cultures to exist before 1810, only a handful ever used guerrilla-style.>><< <> Agreed, but there are few exceptions, and practically none went to such lengths as you've proposed until post-Napoleon. I'd rather not see such anachronistic developments in Mystara unless it goes through a few more game centuries of advancement at the least. That does not mean I don't want to see a new Esterhold . . . <<>>Jennite tradition, if you scan various sources, is much like the mongol tradition of massed mounted combat.>><< <> I said "like the Mongol tradition", not that Jennites were Mongols (Jennites themselves are descended of the Oltecs, a civilized mesoamerican-like group). At least the time line entry (one of the Gazetteers, forget which one) suggests massive horseback battles during the era of Rathanos' apocalypse plot. <<>>Does NACE have widespread printing presses? No. Does NACE have a 75-80% literate populace? No.>><< <> Does that matter *out of context*? No. In context? Yes. Mass politics, the kind where a distant general population reacts and pressures a government into specific actions (think of the WWI Ireland freedom movement and its subsequent effect of bringing US citizens to pressure Washington which then pressured London) did not become possible until the general population became literate and newspaper circulation increased well beyond that achieved with the simple press. NACE is nowhere near fulfilling the literacy or print requirements for advanced mass politics. Magic is a substitute here, but there isn't a specific cheap, efficient, and widely-used method in NACE (as far as I'm aware of) that could achieve the same effect as mass newspaper circulation and common literacy. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:25:49 -0700 From: "Perry LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative >> As to filling it out for 1st level characters, we do that, but it doesn't >> have to be done /before/ play starts. All three of the DM's in our group >> (we have three separate Mystara-based campaigns happening at the moment) >> prefer that our Players try to fill in at least part of it ahead of time -- >> especially the background history part -- but we don't worry if it isn't. >Okay, i understand this better now. I too, like to have the character have a >detailed history and some personal goals in his life before the adventuring >career starts. I then run a prelude that's a one on one (DM and player) >adventure, that roleplays through part or all of the character's history >leading up to where the campaign starts. I've found this way makes it much >easier for the character to be able to refer to thier history since they >actually roleplayed through it. I got this idea from another DM who got it >from the White Wolf system and i've been using it for a couple of years now, >and it seems to work great. Anyone else have similar exposure for character >backrounds in this way? >-Inconu I do, but we call it a "pre-game". Later. Jesse. Vanquer@EMAIL.MSN.COM ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:52:19 -0700 From: "Perry LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "FRPG Personal Code": an Alignment Alternative >For experienced players (not newbies) I think that a character history >(preferably long) is an invaluable aid to the DM. Also it makes the setting >much more real for that player. I have a few people in my group and each has >a different attitude to making a character. Some say 'I want to be a cleric' >and then expect me to make the character, others write a long and >interesting history. This I have once used to great success (so much so that >the adventure I planed was totally sidetracked as the party starts to help >the players friend who sold 'fake' monster parts to a passing mage). >So I like my players to give me as much history as possible. >I am also trying to get them to help with the setting >(people/places/history, etc...) >has anybody got any hints how I might go about this? I don't know why this doesn't work for newbies in your opinion, but I've found that even a person who's never played before usually improves with a good history... I have players give me the following information when I start a campaign: 1.Give me a background that tells about 3 memorable events in the character's life, and 3 NPC's that had a major effect on the character's life who are not family members. 2.A personality profile telling me 3 things that makes your character get along with others, 3 things that makes him not get along with others. Name 1 posession that the character has that holds sentimental value. How did he get it? Why is it sentimental? 3.Name at least one thing that scares your character. 4.State one "nickname" that you've got. Who gave it to you and why? 5.For all persons named above- where are they now, who are they now, what are they doing now? (Unknown is an acceptable answer). All of the above must tie in to each other. If the player chose a lover/fiancee/etc. then I add in the following: 1.What is the current relationship and why? 2.Where is the person (unknown is fine). >On this reward good role-playing : >Why does 'You played in your alignment' give you XP? >I think that this is . Why should the player say before hand how he is going to play his character >(ok give the DM an idea fine, but exactly?) The character could never before >been given the order 'Go kill the orc camp' and never been so afraid in his life >(ok the player is saying things like 'MU ha ha ha' but then he's CE). Nobody is saying that he knows exactly how he's going to play his character. Thus it would be impossible for him to say. In your above example- then he'd be acting out of character if he didn't play the part. There are times when a player must do things that he finds harmful to the character to stay within his role-playing. Examples: Paladins doing something that's going to get them killed- but that they cannot avoid because of honor, alignment, and/or their general personality... >The only reason that I love the 'FRP Personal Code' document is that it >help's develop the character,( not restrict it like 'You did not play in >character- loose 1000 xp'). So, you use the FRP code to establish the character- then the character goes completely against what he put down on the sheet for no apparent reason- what do you do? If you do not penalize the actions, then why even have the person use it? >Your character is your own. Why should someone say things like 'He wouldn't >do that', he would, you made him do it. (his LG sword might >not like it, and his god might stop giving him spells, but he can do it) >The only things that I consider bad role-playing is confusing player >knowledge with character knowledge. Sometimes you can penalize a character for acting out of role by doing things like stopping spells, or such- but there are times when that's not really an option and the person just did a cruddy job or acted totally out of character for whatever reasons the player had... >That Why I use alignments but not for players: players have their alignments >chosen not by paper but by their actions. Okay, in my games their outlook and viewpoint in life decides their alignment. The better they work out a personality- the better the character usually gets role-played... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:57:45 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/17/98 4:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: > > In total war a nation will do whatever necessary to secure victory in most > cases. However, certain acts (nukes, chemical warfare, atrocities etc.) are > sure to cause more trouble to the nation employing them. I don't agree. If one nation holds a new power (such as a nuke) and holds it above other's heads, it will show dominence. Of course, the other countries won't be pleased with such an act, but if anything this would show superiority in my opinion. > There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they > wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri > back again... Exactly. The war wasn't at the point of destroying the enemy's country all together. However, once Sundsvall was destoyed, it instantly got to that point. > > Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. i agree here again to a point. In the end, all that matters is who won and not necessarily how. > >Glows"). Do the Glantrians *really* want to engage in "Total War" against a > >nation that dwarfs them in power? > > Perhaps they should reconsider. > > On the other hand, even a couple of 20th level mages could utterly waste any > nation, IMO. Just summon a Balor, and deliberately miscast it so its free. > Balor then summons more balors, who summon more balors etc etc etc. Nobody > wins... Plus, terrorist actions usually don't get a retaliation on the level of mass- nuking the enemy. It should be known that if a group of Glantrians did torch a town in Alphatia, it probably wouldn't have been ordered from the Glantrian government. It probably is a group in Glantri that are extremists. 1000 36th level mages would probably be able to hold off punishing Glantri and just make an example of the terrorists. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:57:44 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em In a message dated 8/17/98 11:26:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Firstly, their may or may not be "no rules" in war. Clearly, IMO, you > don't know that much about warfair, because this is incorrect, not just in > regards to the present, but in regards to the past. But let's accept that > statement at face value, and pretend that it is true. I'm sorry, it seems like i lost my step by step war instruction manual which states exactly how to proceed in a war situation. In the American Revolution, the English were prepared for both sides to march towards eachother and fight, and thought it was barbaric the way the revolutionists hid behind trees and picked off certain soldiers. This is one example of "breaking the rules" in a war. If you want to make a statement such as "this is incorrect.....but let's pretend it's true" i'd hope you could back up your point with something concrete rather than a "I am right and you are wrong" type of argument. > If the Alphatians followed your logic, they > would initiate the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" event immediately. Note > that, interestingly, this event takes place shortly after the "Nuking" of > Sundsvall. All of the actions of a war depend on how hot the war is. Not every war has both sides wanting the other country blown out of existance. This is why Alphatia didn't bombard Glantri initially. When a war escalates to extreme measures, you can't be prepared for what the enemy might do. > Well, let's just say that the Alphatian response to a "Total War" attitude > from their enemies will be simmilar to Ike's "Massive Retaliation" > "strategy" from the mid-50s (popularly known as "Nuke Glantri till it > Glows"). Do the Glantrians *really* want to engage in "Total War" against a > nation that dwarfs them in power? > Perhaps they should reconsider. I don't recall ever condoning the actions of the example you specified earlier, considering it dealt with whether or not the act was evil. So, in other words, I really have no idea why you wrote that previous paragraph. > > Certain countries think it's unfair to attack civilians or allow women to > > fight in the army, but these moral issues don't affect the good/evil of > the > > particular event. > A flawed argument if I ever saw one. Once again your backing for this is incredible. I especially enjoy the part where you don't explain yourself. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:57:47 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... In a message dated 8/17/98 6:46:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Folks really should read more about strategy. I quote from Luttwak, P. > 222-223: > "Having done for the Americans what the Americans could not do for > themselves, bringing them unequivocally into the war, the Japanese could > have overcome their failure of statecraft only by invading a country that > they should never have challenged in the first place. . . yada yada yada I don't understand why you would use this quote from your "Strategy book", seeing as it describes the acts bringing a country into a war. Alphatia and Glantri are already at war, and therefore they both should be ready for attacks from either side. There is no reason for Alphatia not to expect an attack from Glantri is possible. It would be thought of as a not too likely of an event to occur, but not impossible. > "The case is far from unique. It is indeed common for tactical > achievement, even when quite brilliant [supremely planned & exectuted > "Terror Strikes" against Alphatia], to become counterproductive at the > level of grand strategy [OOPS! There goes Glantri City!]. I must admit that I'm no expert in tactical achievement, but i still would doubt that if Glantri attack killed 50 civilians, Alphatia would just obliterate the capital city. > [well, read the book, then you'll see]. But when there is > disharmony *between* the dimensions, vertical success can be worse than > failure." I really don't think i'm going to read the book, but could you explain your point more clearly? I don't want to respond unless i'm sure of what you meant. > There are rules (if not morality), and they are primarily intended to > secure such "advantages" (I.E. Country A takes prisoners and doesn't > deliberately starve them in the hopes, usually achieved, that Country B > will do the same for Country A's soldiers captured in battle.) Morality is all relative. First off, we're dealing with orcs and elves and tons of other creatures which are all vastly different from the real world. All have there own sets of morals and thoughts on what war is. Some would devour thier enemys. Or torture, sacrifice, kill, etc... Secondly, even in the real world, not all countries have the same thoughts on P.O.W.. Some take them and drill them for information then kill them. Others can't afford keeping them fed. Even with your example of not destroying what they've conqured isn't a moral shared by all. Most would destroy anything resembling property of the enemy. > We tend to think that our age is unique in it's > ability to destroy whole civilizations because of the destructive power of > our bombs, gasses, bioweapons, but it is not: large areas of Germany were a > blighted wasteland by the end of the Thirty Years War.) And this has to do with D&D how? Examples of th real world would hold more validity if Mystara was an all human world. It's not. Therefore you can't quote a general from a book and say that since he says this, it's right. It's not relevant here. RW morals end in Mystara as clearly as the Glantri/Ethengar border. Two completly different peoples with completly different warfare and morals for thier battles. Acckkk... i'm tired of this, i'm going to sleep. - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:03:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... > > I don't understand why you would use this quote from your "Strategy book", > seeing as it describes the acts bringing a country into a war. Alphatia and > Glantri are already at war, > Which means that the Glantrians should do something so gratuitiously stupid as "poke the bear" and get the Alphatian Mages riled up? Well, if you think that, then there isn't much more to say. > > I must admit that I'm no expert in tactical achievement, but i still would > doubt that if Glantri attack killed 50 civilians, Alphatia would just > obliterate the capital city. > As an object lesson, they might. If the attacks are ineffectual (below the level of strategic utility), then they are a pointless diversion of resources. If they have a strategic utility, they will provoke a response. IMO, an unwelcomed one. > > Morality is all relative. > Ahhh, now I see your falacy. Since this isn't the forum to engage in an extensive philosophical refutation of this flawed statement, I shall drop the subject. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:18:22 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em > > All of the actions of a war depend on how hot the war is. Not every war has > both sides wanting the other country blown out of existance. This is why > Alphatia didn't bombard Glantri initially. When a war escalates to extreme > measures, you can't be prepared for what the enemy might do. > The passive voice ("when a war escalates") is of some utility to your argument, however, there is always an actor. If Glantri escalates the war, they ought to be prepaired for the worst. It is the job of "policy makers" (which is I guess what we are discussing) to think through the potential ramifications of the actions they take. Usually this means, to some extent, putting oneself in the other nation's shoes. IMO, the PCs in the example of leading "Terror Strikes" against Alphatia should imagine their reaction if someone lead similar strikes against their nation and people. This is a form of "empathy". Now, to turn back to the "alignment" related discussion, this form of "empathetic reasoning" might be one thing that distinguishes "good" characters and NPCs from "evil" ones. "Good" folk are capable of imagining themselves in other people's shoes, and applying *some* form of the "Golden Rule" ("treat others as you would wish to be treated"). Wicked folk may be so self-centered that they don't go through this process. They may be otherwise intelligent people, however, and in such a case they may be able to discern the possibly reaction of an enemy ("if I do this, then they could do that") even still. Turning back again to the "alignment" discussion that was the origin and purpose of this thread, I see a lot of arguments (now) that are (essentially) saying that one can choose any of the 3 (or nine) alignments, but this should not affect behavior in any way, since "anything goes" in war (and by extension, armed conflict as a whole, which PCs are often engaged in, and even other forms of conflict, I.E. in the political arena). Thus, a "Paladin" can torture and murder, so long as it advances the cause that he has claimed for his own (be it a nation, or religion, or organization), in a purely pragmatic fashion, since "their are no rules". IMO, this is a NE perspective ("I can do anything to advance myself and my people, there are no real rules, and anyone who proposes any is just trying to subvert my autonomous will and destiny, and impose their power on my through such "laws"), if not a CE one. I'd love to see someone cogently argue that a Paladin should behave as some have suggested, even in warfair, and still remain a Paladin, or even Lawful Good. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:59:21 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of...Strategy > > I don't understand why you would use this quote from your "Strategy book", > seeing as it describes the acts bringing a country into a war. > I appologize to some extent for my intemperant previous response. It does bother me when people can't seem to extract the general principle from a specific example. However, I'll try to point it out one more time. Glantri and Alphatia are, in the WotI timeline, at war. However, though this is a large war, it is, at the begining, at least from the Alphatian side (not knowing of d'Ambreville's attempts to construct a "Doomsday Weapon"), a limited one. In what sense? In the sense that Alphatia fights the war (as described in WotI) with "conventional" means. Alphatian mages don't all Teleport over to Glantri as soon as the war declaration is issued and burn down Glantri's cities and towns. For the most part, Alphatia doesn't even seem to "mobilize", at least not it's mages. Until the close of the war, they (the mages) seem to (by implication, if not direct statement) go about their business (ammusing themselves with their magical power), and let the soldiers and the military mages (I.E. thouse who were in the army even prior to the war) "duke it out." They proceed overland, mainly against Thyatis. Glantri and Alphatia each Teleport some monsters into each other's nations, IIRC, but none of this has any affect on the outcome of the war that I can see (negligable strategic utility). The plan of the Glantrians, as mentioned previously and originating, IIRC, in a particular campaign, is/was to organize some "Terror Strikes" into Alphatia. This can have two possible effects: A) similar to the monsters mentioned above. I.E. no real impact on the war. B) does have an effect, thus altering the course of the war. The *hoped* for effect is to have these "Terror Strikes" somehow encourage the "peace faction" within Alphatia, and thus have Alphatia give up on the war (ending it sooner, in Glantri's favor.) If A is the result of the "Terror Strikes" then they are a senseless diversion of resources that could probably be better employed elsewhere (I.E. helping Thyatian armies, thus preserving Thyatis as a "barrier" to Alphatian troops. Conversely, the "Monster Summonings" don't really "cost" much, since they are Summoned or Created [Polymorph, probably], and then Teleported in, which doesn't take much time. But, IIRC, these "Terror Strikes" were to be organized and led by PCs, and PCs are a valuable resource, one that shouldn't be wasted in futile actions, to put it in crude terms. To put in in "in game" terms, a nation doesn't use it's most capable "leaders" (PCs) in a project/endevor that is for all intents and purposes a futile sideshow). Now, if B is the outcome, then one has to ask oneself if this is the *likely* effect. This is the "general principle" of the "Pearl Harbor" example: some actions are, even if (or even especially if) "successful" by the criterion you set out at the begining, counterproductive. Glantri "escalating" a war, even an ongoing war, using "Terror Strikes" that have a strategic affect (I.E. affect the outcome) is a strategy with a high likelyhood of backfiring. I previously asked a question of the "Alphatiaphiles" out there what their likely response to a question like the below would be: "Glantrians are sending 'Terror Squads' into theAlphatian homeland, killing Alphatian civilians and disrupting Alphatia's 'way of life'. How do you react?" A) Surrender immediately rather than subject our people to further attacks. B) Negotiate an immediate ceace-fire rather than subject our people to these attacks. C) Continue the war as before, and press hard against Glantri to "encourage" them to stop these attacks. D) "Massive Retaliation" against these barbarians who are murdering our innocent subjects, as an object lesson to others. Make sure no one wants to emulate Glantri's foul tactics again, by turning Glantri into a smoking crater. Knowing Alphatians, and their sense of self-importance, and knowledge of their own power, they are 99.9% unlikely to submit (A or B) as Glantri wants, and vastly more likely to respond with D ("burn these beggars as an object lesson to all the barbarians"). IMO, even C is unlikely (Alphatia goes on as if nothing occured). The argument that "well, war is hell, anything goes, Alphatians should expect such attacks on unarmed people, including children", is flawed because if nothing else it doesn't recognize the role that emotional reactions play in forming all policy. Snug at home, Alphatians in general know that a war is going on. They're getting casualty lists, loved ones are being buried, but these are soldiers. Not non-combatants and children. The distruction touched Aasla/Haven (which, if you'll recall, touched off the war to begin with), but after that has left the bulk of Alphatia calm. "Brining the war home" to the civil population by targeting them with "Terror Strikes" IMO sounds similar to the arguments in favor of "Strategic Bombing" before and during WWII. "We'll bomb them into submission, break their will, and they'll surrender: ground forces will be unessessary, because of the power of air bombardment" (to put the Douhet/Mitchell/Trenchard argument crudely). The idea that "Terror Strikes" against Alphatia will have the same effect ("break the will" of Alphatia) is IMO similarly flawed, and I've already said what I think the reaction is more likely to be, but perhaps I haven't put it well enough, because it hasn't seemed to get through that this "Terror Strike" idea would be, IMO, counterproductive in the extreme, likely to provoke a disproportionatly destructive, if brief, reaction (won't take long to turn every significant Glantrian settlement into rubble, then the AlphMages can go back to doing what they do best: ammusing themselves with spells). Again, why would the Alphatians react that strongly? If only as a deterant to others. But also because Alphatian pride would have been injured (I wonder how long it's been since anyone launched an attack of *any* kind into continental Alphatia?) Don't underestimate the significance of pride, and other emotions (fear & envy) in motivating folks (Thucydidies is also a good read, btw. . . .) At any rate, if I'm unsuccessful in getting the point I'm trying to make across this time, then I'll have to throw up my hands and admit the futility of trying to explain the point I'm trying to make. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #578 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, August 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 579 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... getting your ass kicked through "successful" Terror Strikes Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of...Strategy [MYSTARA] - Jennite independence and Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite independence and Thyatis Re: [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Terrorists. Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Terrorists. Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:11:07 -0500 From: John Normand Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice they have rules however they arent very clear, they are for the monsters not player characters, and there are different stats foreach system AD&D SAGA(5th age) SAGA(marvel) STRENGTH= STRENGTH STRENGTH CONSTITUTION= ENDURENCE = ?????????? DEXTERITY= AGILITY/DEXTERITY= AGILITY INTELEGENCE= REASON= INTELECT WISDOM= SPIRIT/PERCEPTION= ??????? CHARISMA= PRESENCE= ????????? HITPOINTS= ??????????= ??HANDSIZE?? AC= ??????????= ??EDGE???????? the skills are just as hard because Cyclops (SCOTT SUMMERS)has energy blast at a power of 14, in SAGA rules you have thes letters behind the numbers this gets real confusing if you ask me i have REAL AD&D, MARVEL SAGA, & some things on 5th age, i prefer the AD&D dice rules but like the marvel characters. if you can help me out anymore thank you, i appologise for not sticking on a MYSTARA subject but i am just seeking more info to expand the normal AD&D campains for a bit of fun please let me know johnfoxx Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > The new Marvel Card game from TSR will probably include conversion rules. > If not they are in the SAGA rules for Krynn 5th age. The new Marvel game > also uses the SAGA system so using stuff from Krynn 5th age should > probably work well. > > Håvard > > *** > > Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) > http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc > > "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:13:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... James said: >Which means that the Glantrians should do something so gratuitiously stupid >as "poke the bear" and get the Alphatian Mages riled up? >Well, if you think that, then there isn't much more to say. Very quickly to point out some stuff from my campaign that's different from WotI. I played Wrath a few years ago, and one of the things that bugged me about it, was that I had this great climatic adventure with Aasla burning, the PC's fleeing back to Glantri and standing around Alexander Platz in the snow as Etienne read out the declarations of war. Intense stuff. Then nothing for 6 months! Bah, no siree I wanted stuff to happen *now*! So IMC, the Alphatians send over a small amount of reserve ships with some high level mages. The idea is to end the war in a few weeks, the Alphatians send more requests for surrender and wait for the Glantrians to collapse. The ships arrive, a few thousand Alphatian troops are marched in from Ethengar as a diversion while a few sky ships pop around the country opening up gates to summon nasty monsters. They don't go near Glantri City because that is one place that will be heavily defended by high level mages (not in the Army, they just live there :) ). The diversion wiped out half the Glantrian army and killed Jaggar. The gates opened up and scary, scary monsters rampaged around the country killing everything in sight. It took the mages of the radiance (in secret) to close the gates and lots of heroics to get rid of the nastier summoned beasties. (I also delayed Thyatis' declaration of war until after the first battle so there was a lot more tension...it was Glantri's last stand...) So now we have Thyatians losing battle after battle on the Isle of Dawn, the Glantrian Army in a pathetic state, and as soon as Thyatis leaves the war, the Glantrians are dead. If you were an Army Commander in this situation then perhaps you would just sit and do nothing. But probably not, you'd try and make alliances, with Darokin, Alfheim, Karameikos (now Darokin is going to be of no help very soon when the Master invades, Alfheim will betray the Glantrians and Karameikos will join the Alphatians, but they've got to try..) They're trying to get Dragons on their side, and elementals. It's not that Terror Strikes are the only thing they're doing but the rationale is that they have to do something to change the way things are going. Their strategy for use of these terrorists is not entirely worked out (I think it involves saying that they're rogue elements and the government can't stop them because they're at war with Alphatia :) ) - whatever the goal, it's not quite as simple as is made out to be in Jame's screeds :) (He's quite right of course, terrorist attacks almost never encourage people to give up, they have exactly the opposite effect. Some people never realise this even after 25+ years, but ther you go...) could waffle on some more, but that danged work thing keeps rearing it's ugly head... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:16:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em Rob said: >On the other hand, even a couple of 20th level mages could utterly waste any >nation, IMO. I'd have to agree, I kind of rankle at ignoring the obvious things that Alphatia could do to win the war in less than a day, cos that's not a very exciting story. But it still grates *knowing* they should be able to do it... gordon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:39:26 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... In a message dated 8/17/98 9:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > It is the job of "policy makers" (which is I guess what we are discussing) > to think through the potential ramifications of the actions they take. I thought this was on alignments, but if that's what you want this to be about...... > Now, to turn back to the "alignment" related discussion, this form of > "empathetic reasoning" might be one thing that distinguishes "good" > characters and NPCs from "evil" ones. "Good" folk are capable of imagining > themselves in other people's shoes, and applying *some* form of the "Golden > Rule" ("treat others as you would wish to be treated"). All people here weigh good and evil under different definitions for the game. I'm also sure that evil characters could put themselves in another's shoes and realize the outcome of a situation in determining the counter measures. That technique is a fairly basic one that most should be able to utilize. Hardly a mechanic to distinguish good from evil in my opinion. > Wicked folk may be so self-centered that they don't go through this > process. They may be otherwise intelligent people, however, and in such a > case they may be able to discern the possibly reaction of an enemy ("if I > do this, then they could do that") even still. Does this not go against your argument? You're saying that "wicked" (evil) people would be able to put themselves in other's shoes in order to determine if the outcome would be a good idea. Which would contradict you saying that this distinguishes good from evil earlier. > Turning back again to the "alignment" discussion that was the origin and > purpose of this thread, I see a lot of arguments (now) that are > (essentially) saying that one can choose any of the 3 (or nine) alignments, > but this should not affect behavior in any way, since "anything goes" in > war No. The alignments would definately affect the behavior in war. This is what will allow them to use different methods of attack and determine thier point of which they will go to, to achieve victory in the war. > ("I can do anything to advance myself and my > people, there are no real rules, and anyone who proposes any is just trying > to subvert my autonomous will and destiny, and impose their power on my > through such "laws"), if not a CE one. > I'd love to see someone cogently argue that a Paladin should behave as > some have suggested, even in warfair, and still remain a Paladin, or even > Lawful Good. Okay, I'll give it a try. The paladin's lawful alignment means he will stay loyal to his country through this war, and carry out the orders given onto him by his nation's leaders. His goodly nature manifests whereas he will sacrifice his life in battle, time and again in order to protect his people and follow his personal codes to not fail his countrymen in the name of self-defence. How's that? - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:39:27 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... In a message dated 8/17/98 9:15:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > > Which means that the Glantrians should do something so gratuitiously stupid > as get the Alphatian Mages riled up? > Well, if you think that, then there isn't much more to say. Silly me, thought we were talking about to waring nations here. Are you talking about earlier than i'm presuming here? Is this before WotI? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:39:24 EDT From: Inconu@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... In a message dated 8/17/98 9:15:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Which means that the Glantrians should do something so gratuitiously stupid > as "poke the bear" and get the Alphatian Mages riled up? > Well, if you think that, then there isn't much more to say. What part of WotI are you talking about here exactly? > >Morality is all relative. > Since this isn't the forum to engage in an > extensive philosophical refutation of this flawed statement, I shall drop > the subject. .....and if you want to continue it, just send a private email - -Inconu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:40:12 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... > There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they > wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri > back again... > > Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. >"War is about honour. Show your enemy the respect he deserves. A war is >not settled by murdering women and children. It is settled by soldiers. >It is a soldiers right and a soldiers honour." - Cadeilos, Thyatian >Legionary. Sounds like something out of a David Gemmell book :) Well the soldiers may have respect for each other. Civilians, on the other hand, are another matter. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:01:16 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... getting your ass kicked through "successful" Terror Strikes > However, the key point is "certain acts. . .are sure to cause more trouble >to the nation employing them." Strategically counterproductive, one could >say. Well, thats my only point really. I was just quibbling about this "rules" thing. There are no Rules - its more a question of what you think you can get away with. And sometimes things just get out of hand... Such as... The first civilian target hit in the Battle of Britain occurred when a lone Stuka got separated from its squadron over southern England and jettisoned its bombs. Unfortunately, right over a town. The German crews actually had orders not to hit civilian targets, but of course, the English didnt know this, so next day Churchill sent some bombers over Berlin to drop a few bombs. And then Hitler sent a lot more back again... and so on. (As an aside - the Germans attacking civilian targets caused them to "draw" the Battle of Britain (it wasnt actually decided - more of a stalemate. If the Glantrians could cripple Alphatia at the loss of Glantri City - would they do it? Probably - its no one Prince's responsibility, after all. And it could be magically rebuilt quite quickly. And the loss of mundane life is an irrelevancy... :) Given how relatively disorganised Mystara is compared with the RW, stuff like this could be going on all the time. A gang of Glantrian chaotic adventurers might have decided to wreak some violence against Alphatia off their own bat. The Glantrian government wouldnt have been responsible, but the Alphies arent going to know this - they would respond in kind. > "Having done for the Americans what the Americans could not do for >themselves, bringing them unequivocally into the war, the Japanese could >have overcome their failure of statecraft only by invading a country that >they should never have challenged in the first place. . .To be sure, the >forces of imperial Japan, even if pulled back from China and everywhere >else, could never have been successful in that venture, and of course no >such invasion was even contemplated. So the best Japanese option after >Pearl Harbor was to sue immediately for peace, barganing away Japan's >ability to resist eventual defeat for some years in exchange for whatever >the United States would concede to avoid having to fight for its victory. . >. . > ". . . .At the level of grand strategy, in the confluence of the vertical >dimension and the horizontal, the latter was so adverse for Japan that >tactical and operational success at Pearl Harbor was actually worse than >failure would have been. Well, ive read some military analysis on that attack, and theres some fair opinion that if the Japanese fleet had nailed the American carriers, they would have pretty well clinched the issue there and then. Which was their target, after all. If the Glantrians had some below-the-belt means to cripple the Alphatian war effort at a stroke (Aasla burning, for example) they would probably go for it, if they thought they could get away with it. >> Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. >> > There are rules (if not morality), and they are primarily intended to >secure such "advantages" (I.E. Country A takes prisoners and doesn't >deliberately starve them in the hopes, usually achieved, that Country B >will do the same for Country A's soldiers captured in battle. Ransom was >the usual result. Once again though, its not really rules at all. Just sensible tactics. And an idea of what you can reasonably expect to get away with. Its this word, "rules", that I dont like. It implies that a country wont go beyond a certain point because some guy with a lawyers wig on says no. And that is rubbish. Its all about self preservation, and what you can get away with (which is in itself self preservation). > "Goodies" can include armies (followed by their supplies), monsters, >"munitions" and some kind of "guidance" system (Zombies, for example), and >whatever else you can think of. Oh, ive seen innovative uses of smokepowder and teleportation tactics many times. :) > Of course, all this depends on how you want wars to be fought in your >campaigns (this "Teleportation Platform" scheme, which came up in another >form [wormholes, IIRC] during an earlier discussion, is the logical >conclusion of a Mystaran "Total War" strategy.) Well, I dont like that at all, I have to say. AD+D warfare should be all about legionaries and soldiers and that sort of thing. Sadly, the extreme magical nature of the place prevents that (which i find odd, because in such a climate armies would be obsolete.) Hmm - ive just thought about my last sentence... During the '50s the US cut their conventional land forces because they felt they were obsolete - a fact since proven to be wrong. Perhaps Mystara is at a 20th century equivalent in terms of weapons of mass destruction? (If it is, perhaps the Jennites being analogous to the Vietnamese isnt so far adrift... :) Rob - who is bored, and fascinated by the concept of a "nuclear" Mystara... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:07:22 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of...Strategy >The plan of the Glantrians, as mentioned previously and originating, IIRC, >in a particular campaign, is/was to organize some "Terror Strikes" into >Alphatia. This can have two possible effects: > A) similar to the monsters mentioned above. I.E. no real impact on the >war. > B) does have an effect, thus altering the course of the war. > >The *hoped* for effect is to have these "Terror Strikes" somehow encourage >the "peace faction" within Alphatia, and thus have Alphatia give up on the >war (ending it sooner, in Glantri's favor.) There was a pre World War 2 strategist called Douhet, who theorised that a massive bombing attack against civilian targets would cause a nation to lose heart in the face of such massive destruction. It was upon these principles that Goring in the end decided to go "all out" and flatten a fair number of British cities. Sadly, it doesnt work. All it did was stir up anti German feeling. (And cause lots of German cities to be flattened). So I guess I agree with you, James... >Bombing" before and during WWII. "We'll bomb them into submission, break >their will, and they'll surrender: ground forces will be unessessary, >because of the power of air bombardment" (to put the >Douhet/Mitchell/Trenchard argument crudely). Guess I do! Guess I should read the whole mail before replying... :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:39:42 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Jennite independence and Thyatis With all this talk about Jennites of Esterhold attaining independence, some may forget that Thyatis may well have several reasons to help them. After all, Tarastia, the Jennite Immortal, was once Valentia the Justiciar, Empress of Thyatis! She could very well influence Thyatis into providing secret aid to the Jennites. Thyatis could also do it in order to turn NACE's attention away from itself, and to complicate things for it. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:14:22 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Jennite independence and Thyatis On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > With all this talk about Jennites of Esterhold attaining independence, > some may forget that Thyatis may well have several reasons to help > them. After all, Tarastia, the Jennite Immortal, was once Valentia the > Justiciar, Empress of Thyatis! She could very well influence Thyatis > into providing secret aid to the Jennites. Thyatis could also do it in > order to turn NACE's attention away from itself, and to complicate > things for it. Thyatis would probably avoid any direct confrontation. However, they could hire adventurers and Mercenaries to wreck havoc within NACE military forces or help the Jennites. Sounds like an idea for a whole campaign to me... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:33:38 +0200 From: "F.Peronnet" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page - ---------- > De : stan > A : mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Objet : [MYSTARA] - Changed TSR page > Date : samedi 15 août 1998 10:33 > > With the TSR page changes it took me a little while to find where > all the Mystaran goodies were located, but where are the > Dragon magazine articles located? the new url is : http://www.tsr.com/Dragon/Backissues.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:31:15 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Rob wrote: Someone: > > There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they > > wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri > > back again... > > > > Its not rules. The objective is to win, not mutual devastation. Håvard: > >"War is about honour. Show your enemy the respect he deserves. A war is > >not settled by murdering women and children. It is settled by soldiers. > >It is a soldiers right and a soldiers honour." - Cadeilos, Thyatian > >Legionary. > Rob: > Sounds like something out of a David Gemmell book :) Sorry, who? :( > Well the soldiers may have respect for each other. Civilians, on the other > hand, are another matter. IMO there is a huge difference between medieval/early renessance mentality and modern one. Even when it comes to warfare. Perhaps especially so. In the old days there were indeed rules for how to conduct war. Two armies met at the battlefield and fought. One of the sides survived and won and the other side died. Civillians in those days, would normally be old, women and children. Though, some women might be ravaged, some houses burnt to the ground and so on, destruction of entire cities was at least not common. This would be stupic aswell since the economy was based on farmers, anyway. Mystara is ofcourse different from the Real World. In terms of Warfare the main difference is the powers available to each side. In terms of power, Mystaras superpowers are comparable to those of the Modern Real World. However, I don't think the mentality should be comparable to people of the 1990s. I'm not exactly sure what Mystaran strategists are like, but I think there must be a sense of honour in war. None of the nations of Mystara are democracies. (Not even Darokin). Therefore it is enough to destroy a nations military forces to win. This is also the only proper way to win a war. Remember that all Mystarans know that the Immortals are watching them, and the Immortals of war will encourage certain ideals of warfare. A king who is known for slaughtering children does not inpire morale. I know that my descriptions of the medieval world are generalized and superficial, but going into detail would not make my point any more clear. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:46:09 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - cards to dice On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, John Normand wrote: > they have rules however they arent very clear, they are for the monsters not > player characters, and there are different stats foreach system > AD&D SAGA(5th age) SAGA(marvel) > STRENGTH= STRENGTH STRENGTH > CONSTITUTION= ENDURENCE = ?????????? > DEXTERITY= AGILITY/DEXTERITY= AGILITY > INTELEGENCE= REASON= INTELECT > WISDOM= SPIRIT/PERCEPTION= ??????? > CHARISMA= PRESENCE= ????????? > HITPOINTS= ??????????= ??HANDSIZE?? > AC= ??????????= ??EDGE???????? > the skills are just as hard because Cyclops (SCOTT SUMMERS)has energy blast at > a power of 14, in SAGA rules you have thes letters behind the numbers this gets > real confusing if you ask me i have REAL AD&D, MARVEL SAGA, & some things on > 5th age, i prefer the AD&D dice rules but like the marvel characters. if you > can help me out anymore thank you, i appologise for not sticking on a MYSTARA > subject but i am just seeking more info to expand the normal AD&D campains for > a bit of fun > please let me know I'm assuming you want to make the marvel characters into AD&D player characters, rather than Monsters. Marvel has only got STRENGTH, AGILITY, INTELLECT, HANDSIZE and EDGE? In that case STRENGTH probably describes both AD&D STR and CON. AGILITY equals DEX and INTELLECT equals both INT and WIS. HANDSIZE determines how many cards you have, right? Same as SAGAS Quests? In that case the HAND can be translated into levels. SAGA 5thage probably has rules for this.. For AC, you should probably look at a characters DEX and what kind of amrmour the character has. Collossus for example has probably at least AC 0 in his Titanium form. For charisma, simply assign a number you find appropriate. Think of the comic books. Does the guy have a lot of friends? Is he attractive/ugly? Cyclops would probably have a charisma above average because of his leadership abilities. Weapon skills can just be ignored in AD&D. You have ThacO instead. If the character is a Fighter, (Most of em will be I guess) he might have weapon speciality. You will probably find that the AD&D system simulates the Marvel Universe poorly though. If you want to discuss this further, feel free to email me privately since this is straying off topic. Sincerely, Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:52:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Terrorists. There is no such thing as a terrorist in Mystara. Brigands, sure. They can be feared or popular among commoners, but they will still be brigands and thieves. You don't take a bunch of civilians hostage. Noone will care. Kidnap a princess, okay, the king might buy her back for some gold. Kill or kidnap farmers. You'll only end up killed by a knight who doesn't really care whether the people you've kidnapped die as long as he can bring your head back to the king and collect his reward. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Every turkey dies. Not all turkeys truly live." -Chef, South Park *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:20:15 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Terrorists. >There is no such thing as a terrorist in Mystara. >Brigands, sure. They can be feared or popular among commoners, but they >will still be brigands and thieves. >You don't take a bunch of civilians hostage. Noone will care. Kidnap a >princess, okay, the king might buy her back for some gold. Well. There would still be "freedom fighters"/terrorists around, thats just a matter of perspective. However, Mystara has no media, no "World Stage", so that would rule out a lot of terrorist motives. >Kill or kidnap farmers. You'll only end up killed by a >knight who doesn't really care whether the people you've kidnapped die as >long as he can bring your head back to the king and collect his reward. And I thought I was cynical! Maybe a knight from the Black Eagle Barony (he actually set up the kidnapping himself, so that he could then betray them and get rewarded...) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:26:12 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - In defense of... was: (Alignments: Who needs 'em >> In total war a nation will do whatever necessary to secure victory in most >> cases. However, certain acts (nukes, chemical warfare, atrocities etc.) >are >> sure to cause more trouble to the nation employing them. > >I don't agree. If one nation holds a new power (such as a nuke) and holds it >above other's heads, it will show dominence. Of course, the other countries >won't be pleased with such an act, but if anything this would show superiority >in my opinion. Well, I was assuming that both sides could do unto each other. Glantri has enough mages to wreak some serious havoc in Alphatia (they would lose, but they would still do much damage) so they can strike back meaningfully. > >> There are no rules in war. If Glantri had a choice in the matter they >> wouldnt have nuked Sundsvall, because then the Alphies would nuke Glantri >> back again... > >Exactly. The war wasn't at the point of destroying the enemy's country all >together. However, once Sundsvall was destoyed, it instantly got to that >point. Escalation... a lovely concept. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #579 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.