mystara-digest Tuesday, September 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 630 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :) Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? Re: [MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :) Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:30:20 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > > As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for > > it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort > > of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain > > age? In a certain place? > > > Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers": I wonder if they've > adressed this question. If so, they might have good answers. > Here's my "seat of the pants" one based on the general answer I gave > before: > All Alphatian cities and most Alphatian towns have a sort of > "supdepartment of evaluation" (within a notional "department of magical > education" where the lucky few go once the trait is discovered). > Depending upon how formalized/widespread you think education is made > available within Alphatia, the testing might be conducted there: testers go > out to schools, including villiage schools, and at a given age (say, 6, if > we assume Alphatian children enter school at 6), they all recieve a battery > of tests looking for the trait. If in your campaign this kind of education > system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a > focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered > there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so > that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice. > If discovered, the children would then go out from their families to > magical academies at, say, age 7. Now, we might think that this particular > practice is mean, but magical training takes a long time, and don't > remember that young noblemen became pages at age 7, went from their own > family to that of a neighboring nobleman to start to learn how to be > knights; this is little different from that, IMO. > Thus, even the children of the servile wogs and slaves who manifest the > "trait" will be schooled in magic, and indoctrinated. . .er, educated. . > .in the social customs of the Alphatian aristocracy and the proud and noble > history of Alphatia (c.f. Plato's Republic on the education of the young.) > It's the responsibility of the Committee for Science and Education (CSE), a branch of the Grand Council of Alphatia, dominated by the faction of the Red Maces. Source: "The Grand Council of Alphatia" which can be found on various sites, including http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:03:49 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE > Really nasty thought: Some powerful planet-spanning empire (either > magical, technological, or both) captures immature draeden, raises them > much as Thyatis raises dragons, rocs, et c., outfits them with even more > fearsome weaponry, and voila! The ultimate war machine! > I hope not! Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:41:53 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > Which would make an excellent character concept, btw; a dude (or dudessa) > chosen to be a prophet (or even "just" a cleric) by an Immortal. That > person should have (IMO) reverence for the Immortal in question, but > perhaps would rather have done something else with their life. However, > they have the burden of responsibility, like it or not. > Would make an interesting PC some time, I'll have to remember the idea. > Thanks, Jamuga. > (btw, the Doctors say I should be fully recovered in 4-6 weeks. 8-)~ > Goog, good. Otherwise I would have had to send my personal doctor to care for you. Unfortunately the most positive statement about his abilities was "interesting"... :-) Jamuga Khan "..." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:35:07 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi > Well, Zugzul & the Afridi are in DA 4: Duchy of Ten, a really good module > if you can find it (I'd recomend scavenging up all the DA modules if you > can; they're great fun in and of themselves, and if you have Blackmoor > related stuff in your campaign, they are indispensible). > I would still opt for Zugzul = Ixion. Could I convince you? 5000 years ago Ixion probably was still a mighty Immortal but not the ruling hierarch. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:45:49 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? > Unrelated rant: you know what I really hated about the Skyshield as > given in PWAII? The fact that atmospheric pressure remains constant > until the end of the atmosphere. That's just plain stupid. Sure, it > makes it easy to scale mountains, and you don't need to change the > cooking times, but that just compleatly blows away so much chemistry and > thermodynamics (along with weight) that I wouldn't know where to begin > to create a Mystaran barometre. > IIRC there was a rule about lower pressure at higher altitude. It should be somewhere in CoM. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:00:36 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al > I would treat it like getting "removed" from a patron power (according to > PS). A cleric would carry part of his Immortal´s essence with him (as all > believers do), so the cleric himself would be a "tiny avatar" of the > Immortal. We could use a freely devised system to gauge how much power > (levels, or perhaps only spells) the cleric losses as he goes deep into the > past and awa from the point of his patron´s rising to Immortality. > I would say something like this: > > 1) take count of the Immortal´s power level > 2) see the interval value in years: Ultimate = 500 > Greater = 100 > Average = 50 > 3) Calculate the years (approximately) in past away from the Immortal´s > ascension > 4) divide it by the figure above to calculate the number of intervals > 5) for each interval, the PC loses one level of clerical abilities > (spellcasting and turning undead) > 6) in special missions, the Immortal can send an avatar along (with or > without the PC knowing it). In that case, the PC cleric keeps all powers. > The avatar is difficult to keep, as it menaces paradox. The Immortal can > only keep an avatar in remote past for a number of days equal to the HD of > his Manifestation form. > 7) Time Immortals may bypass the above rules and tamper with Time and > paradox, keeping their clerics full-power. There is a danger in this: it is > considered violation of Immortal law (like direct interaction with > mortals), so the Immortal has a 5% cumulative per day of getting caught and > being forced to retire from the timespan meddling. In that case, the > cleric is left without powers till he returns to present (a way of > punishment for this risky business). > > Feedback on this? > > Annecians de Skie No personal offense intended, but it hurts my rule number one: KEEP IT SIMPLE! Nowadays I have problems to remember all the standard rules from the RC so I don't want to increase the rules. That's IMO of course. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:59:34 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability At 08:32 PM 9/15/98 +0100, you wrote: > >>I don't think that it should be like that. They should all be separate, >>as there are times when you would want clerics and mystics, but not mages, >>such as in magically dead-zones. Or as mentiones, when one travels back >>in time and your immortal hasn't been sponsored yet, mages and mystics >>would be preferable. I think it is preferable to keep them separate. > > >Each class has its own unique charm and its own slant on things. I use >psionicists instead of mystics, but they use the same principles at the end >of the day. No one denies that a mage and a cleric are radically different, >mystics should be considered yet another variation. > >Besides, they are cool! And they are not some shadow of a mage. > Yeah, they're cool. But I still they're powers are internal. :) Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:03:52 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :) At 08:46 PM 9/15/98 +0100, you wrote: >IMC Herath uses lots of "biological" magic. After all, araneas seem to be >magical versions of geneticists, creating various races and even modifying >their own bodies. And they cerainly have the power, as apparently they >defeated the Great One in the wallara/aranea war. > >As an aside on the final point, I also say that aranea are the only race on >the planet for which psionics is reasonably common (as common as magic is >amongst humans). Given this split personality thing, their strength of will >etc. it seemed appropriate. And as psionics is all about studying the inner >self, maybe this is the ability that is needed (Psychometabolism). > Actually, the Savage Coast book, mentions, well least I think it mentions, that wallara have psionics. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:14:03 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs > Hei, youare Angliz iz jast fien. > In the Red Steel/Savage Coast material, they do mention that >various races can be psionic, but give absolutely no other information, >like kits, how they fit in the the cultures or inheiritors, et c.. It actually, there are kits in there (the only kits in any source book for psionicists, bar Dark Sun!). As to how they fit into the cultures - well, you dont often see much stuff about how magic fits into cultures either, its just taken as red... >seems as though it was added as an afterthought, so all those people >with the Complete Psionics Handbook wouldn't feel left out. As far as I >can recall, none of the Princess Ark articles mentioned any psionics, >which is consistent with their lack of existance in D&D. well, they didnt exist in D+D at all. However, they do in AD+D... And Mystara is now both a D+D and an AD+D world. To just dismiss such a cool concept as psionics seems a bit stupid to me, especially just because it wasnt mentioned in any Princess Ark articlesSo what? Neither were a lot of the weighty topics which appear on the MML. None of the Princess Ark articles said that there were no psionicists, after all, so its hardly detracting from canon :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:47:33 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > Yes! Just like in Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods"! But remember, all > true Immortal/god beings would speak not only in capitals, but also in > chapter and verse. > Sigh... :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:59:29 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) > These are just a few option. Others may involve summoning elementals, > polymorphing the tank into something else... > Even a druid can seriously harm a tank, provided we're in the right > environnement. He can move near the tank using "pass plant" and then cast > "call lighting" or "creeping doom" to hurt either the tank or the crew. > You know, magic gives us plenty of opportunities... and I've not considered > yet the Glantrian Secret Crafts. > Hm, "Heat Metal"? Not sure about limitations right now... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:54:18 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? > well actually the tanks would be facing the foot infantry. elite mystaran > adventurer types would come in after the initial meetings between sword and > .223 cal ammo. one should also remember the gun's equalizing factor. plus > there are the modern forces own elite units such as the Recon Marines, SAS, > Navy SEALs, US Special Forces, and so on. imagine what a US Ranger company or > the 10th Mountain Division could do. and lest we forget the 101st or 82nd > Airborne. > > one advantage a techno army has that has not been offerred is mechanization. a > mechanized division could engage the foot armies of the KW at will and at an > unending pace. > One disadvantage for a tech army: Logistic as even a high-tech tank needs fuel and ammunition. One advantage for a a tech army: The numbers of soldiers in the armies of this century is several times greater than of any army in the history of mankind (with the possible exception of China?). Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:01:10 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :) >Actually, the Savage Coast book, mentions, well least I think it mentions, that >wallara have psionics. yeah, i think you may well be right... wallara are quite appropriate for psionicists i guess. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:03:25 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? >IIRC there was a rule about lower pressure at higher altitude. It should be >somewhere in CoM. I think its in the PWAs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:30:51 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? > > One disadvantage for a tech army: Logistic as even a high-tech tank needs > fuel and ammunition. > Definately a topic that hasn't been touched upon but should be. The fuel especially, but also spare parts &tc; unless the tech army gets continuous resupply, it'll quickly become just a bunch of interestingly-shaped archeological curiosities. > One advantage for a a tech army: The numbers of soldiers in the armies of > this century is several times greater than of any army in the history of > mankind (with the possible exception of China?). > Both true and false; true in the sense that modern armies are quite large. But in actuallity their number based on the percentage of population isn't much improved over what civilized ancient countries could achieve (Rome, Persia, China); it is just that modern populations are so much greater. Also, fully-mobilized "total war" isn't nessisarily a modern inovation, either; the % of population put under arms by the USSR or Germany wasn't orders of magnitudes greater than the % mustered by Carthage and Rome during the Punic Wars (c.f. Hans Delbruck's History of the Art of War). [oh, with one difference: Carthage and Rome used greater percentages of foreign mercenaries/auxilliaries to supliment their own forces. Actually, to some extent Germany did the same thing during WWII, using Roumanians, Spanish, Bulgarians, and even Russians to fill out (with uneven effectiveness) their forces on the Eastern Front. Rome & Carthage did a bit more than that, though. Probably. Actually on this point I could be off a bit, but to go further down the path would be to take us way off topic. Not that we aren't already. Oh well.] Anyhow, I guess the point (assuming for once I even have one) would be that the mobilization %s used for the War Machine stuff in the PWAs isn't *too* obnoxiously innacurate. It's just that no Mystaran nation has a population measured in the hundreds (or even tens) of millions, so the armies are corespondingly smaller. (btw, I quibble because I care. . .not trying to be obnoxious, even if it's true). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Just one point regarding wishes and spellcasting: In WotI, for the background given for Usamigaras, it is said that he was a halfling in mortal life, who used a wish to gain the ability to cast spells, which he then used to finagle his way into rulership over Cynidicea. So, judging from this, you *can* use a eish to gain magical powers, but the wording would have to be perfect, or the DM should roast the player for the greedy person he/she is. ;-) Geoff Supreme Dictator, Cynidicea Working Group - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:35:41 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >And it all depends on where you construct your abode. Not too many wizards around the polar icecap, I guess :) Sadly, there are no polar icecaps on Mystara, and WoTI removed that little loop-hole by stating there must be some minimum number. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:40:56 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >Well, they ARE chaotic. Each man for himself - anyone who finds a cure could distibute it to his kids and set up a dynasty over the rest of the more "genetically challenged" Alphatians would do it. Feather your own nest, not society as a whole. If you're a mage, just make sure you marry (rated G) one. The genes work out beautifully. Besides, what self-respecting power hungry mage is even going to want children? >And become an Immortal of Time into the bargain! But that's where all the (eck!) clerics and dirt priests go. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:40:46 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade Just a quick note to Jenn, James, Adam, and Nicholas: The discussion concerning the fate of Darokin regarding Hule, and a possible balkanization into city-states is fascinating! Personally, I think an event (or series of events) like this would go a long way towards spicing up this part of the world. Now then, is there any more information on Tortuga? What was the fate of Corunglain? IMO, being where it is, it would be among the first cities to feel the might of the raging noid hordes - right out of Warhammer FRP, with rampaging hordes streaming over the walls, spreading death and chaos. Perhaps Dolos and Nemiston might find themselves under SE "protection" - pay tribute to us or leave, sort of thing? How about Favaro and Elstrich, and places in between? Being on the Streel Plains, they would either clamour for aid from Darokin City or other nearby centres, or grimly set about the task of preparing for the inevitable assaults to come. Imagine the plains dotted with fortified towns and villages, each one ringed with ditches and palisades, manned by paranoid guards, who thank their Immortals for being able to live another day... Just some thoughts, Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:51:55 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >Herath, of course! Mystara has only three canon Magical Kingdoms, and >Herath is the little known one of the three. > >Also, being spiders, and surrounded by enemies, and being insectoidally pragmaric (?!?) i guess that the Herathians would be less prone to backstabbing (biting?) and more inclined to cooperate for the survival of the race. The only problem for Herath having a school in the Alphatian/Glantri/Karameikan (trying to hold back laughter... can't...ahh) Hahahahahahahahahaha Slap! Sorry about that folks, but Karameikos: Kingdom of Magic does that to me. Anyway. Unfortunately, Herath is populated by Herathites, namely arenea. According to the original Princess Ark article, non-arenean mages quickly and quietly "disappear." No one really notices; mages are know for keeping odd hours and running with scissors. An arguement could be made that in the post-WoTI world, Herath has changed its policy, but I think the xenophobic terror of an outsider possibly finding out their dirty li'l secret would override any concern over economic gain. In the industry of magic, the disapprence of Alphatia must be akin to the collapse of the Soviet Union. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:58:02 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >From: "Rob" >To: > >Ive heard in an old psionics debate on the MMl (a topic that i stir up every >so often :) that a good reason that psionics is rare on Mystara is because >the Men in Black from Alphatia stamp it out as been a threat to their >magical empire (Personally, as it is often said that magic and A good conspiracy, and Mystara needs more. The only problem I see is that Alphatia's reach, while long, is not infinite. Think of all of the nations Haldemar "discovered" scattered across the continents. I doubt Alphatia would be that good at controlling anything in Thyatis or Minea/Easterhold. Perhaps there is some hidden society of super-powerful psionicists (a la Dark Sun's Order), but unlike the Order, any psionicist is fair game. They live in some hideously remote monastery, and devote themselves to keeping Mystara "pure." They could actually be mages or clerics; divination would be particuarly useful for them. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:06:59 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi >I would still opt for Zugzul = Ixion. Could I convince you? > >5000 years ago Ixion probably was still a mighty Immortal but not the >ruling hierarch. That could create some not-so-nice problems for players who go through the DA series. Most clerics (at least, the players I've seen) tend to be of Ixion; he's a nice, clean Immortal of Light. In the modules, the Afidhi is presented as the enemy, which naturally translates into Zugzul = bad. On this note: what of the ethical paradoxes created by a time-traveling cleric? Immortals are not infinite, immutable gods: they're just really powerful adventures. They can change their mind, waffle on morality, and (de)evolve, just like real people. Say Ixion was, at one point, "evil" under the ethos he presents now. A cleric traveling to this point would her/himself labouring under "evil." Interesting ethical dilemma, especially if the evil Ixion finds out that he will be good, and takes steps for that not to happen. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #630 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 631 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society [MYSTARA] - Frog Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - Frog Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar na Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:10:45 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs >well, they didnt exist in D+D at all. However, they do in AD+D... And >Mystara is now both a D+D and an AD+D world. To just dismiss such a cool >concept as psionics seems a bit stupid to me, especially just because it >wasnt mentioned in any Princess Ark articlesSo what? Neither were a lot of >the weighty topics which appear on the MML. None of the Princess Ark >articles said that there were no psionicists, after all, so its hardly >detracting from canon :) Sorry, you were right about the kits. I was looking at the online version. I don't necessarily think that psionics need to be dropped from Mystara; they could add a unique aspect and some world-spanning revisions. My objection to the Red Steel implementation is that it seems as though psionics was just grafted onto Mystara without much thought into Red Steel's past. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:11:43 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs >well, they didnt exist in D+D at all. However, they do in AD+D... And >Mystara is now both a D+D and an AD+D world. To just dismiss such a cool >concept as psionics seems a bit stupid to me, especially just because it >wasnt mentioned in any Princess Ark articlesSo what? Neither were a lot of >the weighty topics which appear on the MML. None of the Princess Ark >articles said that there were no psionicists, after all, so its hardly >detracting from canon :) Sorry, you were right about the kits. I was looking at the online version. I don't necessarily think that psionics need to be dropped from Mystara; they could add a unique aspect and some world-spanning revisions. My objection to the Red Steel implementation is that it seems as though psionics was just grafted onto Mystara without much thought into Red Steel's past. After all, they didn't include gnomes, since they are not a regular choice in oD&D. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:18:28 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >> >Hmmmn. . .I actually think we're in fundimental agreement on the important >points, since we: > 1) agree that the Alph. mages are totally unlikely to cooperate on this >kind of endevour (IMO either enforcing a "ban" on such reasurch or in >conducting it) Yep. It looks like reasoned discussion saves the day again. I didn't intend for the ban to be thoughtful or deliberate; I just felt that no one would start researching, or care to, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. > In any case, the "real" power is held by a group that is limited to an >arbitrary number: only 1,000 wizards can be on the council, no matter how >many 36th level mages their may be at any given time, That's true, but there is no fundamental difference between a Council mage and an eligble non-Council mage. Given the dueling system available, even if the non-Council mage who rips you up doesn't get the position, you're still dead. And if you were the one who killed, it's very probable that you could then muster the votes to get in. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:53:41 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Frog >So possibly she got involved in Mystara in Blackmoorian age, supporting >the most aggressive amphibian/reptilian races (or maybe the Temple of >the Frog!). >What do you think about it? Nice thesis, and I don't mean to jump on you or the person who mentioned the Swamp Fiend idea (sorry, can't quite recall), but here are my concepts for Frog, who is immensely important in my campaign. Incidently, they are based in very much in Lovecraft. I base Frog on Azathoth, who (in HPL), unlike Cthulhu and friends who may be just powerful aliens, is clearly a god. Not your standard god: Azathoth is described as blind and dumb, and spends all its time listening to two insane pipers. Frog is. As far the Immortals can tell, that's it. Even in Thanatos' dimest memories, there lies the hideous croaking that only be described as a frog's (not really, but not even an Immortal mind can come up with a better one). Frog is an embodiment of the swirls of chaos, even more so than Entropy, and most likely exists in the Dimensional Vortex (if you view the Old Ones as hostile, then Frog fits with them; if you view them as they seem to canonized, ie at the very least indifferent, then Frog may be the Entropic equivalent, or can reside in...) or the Dimension of Nightmares. Frog seems to have no theology other than the ruin of all existing orders, including the Sphere of Entropy, and the establishment of the Frog. Exactly what this consists of is uncertain. Some Immortals believe it to be the creation of a "superior" race and social order, while others fear that it can only mean Frog consuming the multiverse. Frog's ultimate reasons and goals are unknown and unknowable; Frog does not think like a man, or a mammal, or any contemporary being. It is rumoured that Ka has communicated with Frog and understood some of what Frog wanted. Ka vigourously denies this, but it is known that Ka was not seen for several years after this supposed incident, and Ka returned somehow changed. As Terra said, "As though he nearly lost his mind." Whatever Frog's beliefs or goals, the Temple of Frog has existed from time immemorial ("Apes danced to this horrors in Asia." Lovecraft). The oldest known physical temple dates to the earliest movings of the Carnivex, but Khronous fears (secretly) that it may predate even this venerable time. Frog and its worship are inimical to any and every Immortal, god, deity, and/or system of belief. Though Frog may not have any concept of what we would term intelligence, that does not mean that followers of Frog are stupid; far from it, they are often blindingly intelligent, and altogether mad. Even though no know follower of Frog is capable of understanding Frog (unless utter madness conveys knowledge), they are more than willing to reap the powers of Frog's worship in exchange for their soul (in a method unknown to Immortals, Froggies go to Limbo, but do not then leave; Froggies may thus be resurrected, and can often bring things back: dark things). The Temple of Frog is willing to use any means to accomplish its ends. Which raises an interesting question: how can the Temple know what those ends are if they cannot communicate with Frog? Known only to the Saint Illuminated (the highest ranking Froggie), it is in fact their mission to accomplish...whatever they wish. Most only reach this point after extreme madness, and thus believe that they hear the voice of Frog (indeed, they may). The occasional few who rise to the top without succumbing to the void use the office to reach their goals, which is invaringly massive power, both personally and politically. These goals are, unsuprisingly, the goals of the "Frog Spoken" (those who "hear" the voice of Frog), and the Temple grows as a result. The Temple has changed throughout time. At some points in time, such as the Carivex, most sentinent beings worshipped Frog. At other times, there were enough followers that the existance of the Temple could be known, like in the days of Blackmoor. In modern times, while a physical Temple exists somewhere (heh heh), even the knowledge has been suppressed. The reasons for this are myriad: all Immortals, even those of Entropy, consider Frog to be the greatest of heresies, and order the complete destruction of all Froggies, without mercy. Vague cultural memories of the Frog exist, and it is used as a boogey-man to scare children, but no right-minded person of the eleventh-century seriously considers the miniscule fragments left as anything more than fiction at its worst excesses. Besides, the Immortals tell them Frog doesn't exist. Deep in recesses of genetic memory, however, there exists a beacon. Enlightened souls, those whose minds could pierce the very secrets of the cosmos, found this marker, and quickly committed suicide in the most unpleasant manners, such as ingesting green slime. All things come from Frog, and to Frog shall all things return! "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:56:08 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >>Just one point regarding wishes and spellcasting: > >In WotI, for the background given for Usamigaras, it is said that he was a >halfling in mortal life, who used a wish to gain the ability to cast >spells, which he then used to finagle his way into rulership over >Cynidicea. So, judging from this, you *can* use a eish to gain magical >powers, but the wording would have to be perfect, or the DM should roast >the player for the greedy person he/she is. ;-) The description left out one important detail: did Usamigaras actually become a mage, or did he become a Hin Master? Ratlings aren't entirely without magical abilities. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:31:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade Geoff: Actually, at least as far as MC is concerned, you hit it right on the money with Corunglain and Dolos/Nemiston. Corunglain fell to humanoid forces almost immediately, and SE expansionism also resulted in a pretty nasty siege of Favaro. Sigh...Alas, what will be the fate of poor Darokin? Stay tuned, and eventually I might actually get off this list long enough to actually write a game!...Just kidding, I love you guys... :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:33:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Laughing with you, Nicholas...Still... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:38:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Well, I'm not sure if I like the idea of Ixion in this scenario or not (I am not familiar with the modules), but I do follow what you are saying. I think that regardless of what players expect or not, it is important to remember that Immortals (like historical gods) have many different aspects. Think of the different aspects of Jehovah, Hecate, Zeus, etc. Ixion is the "nice, pure" Immortal of light and purification, but he is also allowing a pretty nasty Inquisition in Narvaez as well. This does not make him evil. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:40:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs I don't know...I already have guns hanging out in the SC without allowing them to spread widely--do we also need to find a way to keep psionics regional? Would this make the rest of the world "backwards" in comparison? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:46:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Frog Once again, Nicholas, you read like a novel! (more, more, the Empress demands it! No? Off with his head!...:-) This is really intruguing, Like I've said before, I don't really know anything about Frog, but it sounds like he is very compatible with the Chaos mage ("Shadow Master") kit my hubbie put together. You might want to check it out at my site. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:26:04 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs At 09:40 PM 9/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know...I already have guns hanging out in the SC without >allowing them to spread widely--do we also need to find a way to keep >psionics regional? Would this make the rest of the world "backwards" in >comparison? > Well I've heard it said, that frontier life spurs technological development, in that one has to make do with less, and there are less people to censure new ideas. Backwards by comparison? I suppose so, as it seems that the rest of Mystara seems to be too comfy, and this tends to slows developement. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:21:39 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Ixion is the "nice, pure" Immortal of light and purification, >but he is also allowing a pretty nasty Inquisition in Narvaez as well. >This does not make him evil. Or does it? In a mortal, preaching purity on one hand and allowing the massacre of innocents on the other would be called the most base form of hypocripsy. In real life, theologians allow gods to get away with this because they are infinite and perfect, but even then, most find it necessary to create an evil adversary. Immortals are not (modern)gods, though: given the manner in which they act, they would best fit the Greek gods: petty, vain, and guilty of all the failings of humanity (even more so, as they abuse their ultimate power). Ixion is not above reproach; while he undoubtably feels his position removes him from morality, it only places a greater burden on him. In this sense, even Alphaks has got some morality higher than Ixion; Alphie makes no pretense about himself or his goals. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:23:24 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Ixion is the "nice, pure" Immortal of light and purification, >but he is also allowing a pretty nasty Inquisition in Narvaez as well. >This does not make him evil. Or does it? In a mortal, preaching purity on one hand and allowing the massacre of innocents on the other would be called the most base form of hypocripsy. In real life, theologians allow gods to get away with this because they are infinite and perfect, but even then, most find it necessary to create an evil adversary. Immortals are not (modern)gods, though: given the manner in which they act, they would best fit the Greek gods: petty, vain, and guilty of all the failings of humanity (even more so, as they abuse their ultimate power). Ixion is not above reproach; while he undoubtably feels his position removes him from morality, it only places a greater burden on him. In this sense, even Alphaks has got some morality higher than Ixion; Alphie makes no pretense about himself or his goals. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:31:30 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics In a message dated 9/12/98 8:50:53 PM, you wrote: << In any case, probably the best thing to do would be to forge marriage ties not in order to create unitary states, but in order to encourage alliances. These too will probably also be somewhat temporary, as in the end true "national interests" will determine the strength (and direction) of alliances, but this kind of forging of ties through marriage is the closest you'll likely get to achieving "the best of both worlds". >> I am well aware of all your arguments, and have studied my history as well. . . Which is exactly why I want to see some of this in Mystara. I find the extent to which "force of arms" is pursued as the policy of power base building has been well documented in PWA (both cannon and here on the MML), at the expense of other factors present both in our own worlds history and the voluminous fantasy literature I'm guessing most gamers have read in their time. There is a great deal of messaging dealing with the influence the Immortals and religion on KW politics, and some very long and creative discussions of "This Gaz. army v. That Gaz. army", KW economics, or the applications of D&D magic on different walks of life. I was trying to stir up some postings on ideas from the list on the political interplay on the old KW (and Hollow World, which seems to get the short end of the stick . . . Granted that the Spell of Preservation is a tad stifling). And as has been proven the case, personal relationships and family alliances [Love and Marriage, petty jealousies, grudges, loyalties] can have huge effects on the way nations interact. Especially when the people involved come from different cultures and suffer mis-communication. That's what I was looking for. And sure, it's often cleaner to boil it all down to fighting for power, with clearly drawn lines of battle, but I'm talking about the messy side of things. History, literature, and sadly our own current newspaper headlines provide too many examples of this to be missing from Mystara. I was amazed at the outpouring of ideas for Darokin, and ask the list to play with more of these ideas for all our campaigns. That's it. Gate get back to reading the Starr report . . . . Hmmmmm. Does Corwin Mantua have an intern? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:50:41 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar na In a message dated 9/14/98 1:53:55 AM, Ac2 wrote: Well, actually, you wrote a lot. Good stuff too. How bout this then. Given the tough internal and external problems facing the important families, when do they start throwing their money and heirs at outsiders (ambitious dynasties, cash strapped neighbors, feared wizards, notorious Princes of Thieves, and powerful player characters) to ensure their own safety. These ties/allies would be intended as insurance against threats both foreign and domestic. (As well as ways to solidify trade deals in competitors territory.) It might also be a sign of prestige to have a child of a wealthy Darokin family marry into the nobilty. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:11:43 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 9/14/98 1:14:09 PM, you wrote: <> The Black Rajah of Jaibul and the less ethical Nagpurians might help the Master set up formal training in Sind. Both of these mumlykets have a tradtion of magical rule and study. Jaibul might be the appropraiate setting for the school, but that lands "bad rap" (classic FRP "land of the mad, evil wizard") among Sindians might make Mahasabad the safer/slyer choice. Of couse, the Hulean priests will probably jealously guard their position in the great scheme of things. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:12:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality It kind of makes you wonder about what exactly comprises "morality" or "evil" in Mystara. Just because one thinks that something is wrong does not make it necessarily so, and that goes for dualistic concepts such as good vs. evil as well. Those kinds of decisions, I suppose, are usually best viewed in a cultural context. In which case, people in Thyatis for example, might not agree with the heldannic Inquisition (although they both follow Vanya), and those in Narvaez might believe that the church of Ixion IS "purifying" the populace (and hence doing GOOD) through his Inquisition. Perhaps, then, we should avoid labels as such. Except, maybe, in the case of the Entropic Immortals, who are indeed concerned with the destruction of life. While this may not necessarily be seen as evil, morality is inherently a mortal point of view, and so I'd imagine that anything which leads to the destruction of mortals would probably be considered immoral by all, whether they agree with it or not. Which makes me wonder...Aside from convenience in categorization, do you really think that Nyx should be considered Entropic? She seems to me to fit better perhaps in Matter... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:15:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics "Does Corwyn Mauntea have an intern?"... Probably, but he'd never let this sort of thing go public. Bad for business, you see... :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:34:55 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-14 08:39:22 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes: << >"killing those spells" was easy as they were low level spells. these are the >"weakest" spells. that mage would be fighting four crewmen and their >mount... Agreed, I was not in at the beginning of the thread and posted them as just some immediate thoughts rather than a battle plan. Not really considering the tactical side as I would if actually running/playing the scenario.>> well i think what has been most overlooked in this thread is the power potential of a tank. in a way i would relate a tank being equal to or greater than a dragon in terms of power and perceived HDs. with that in mind low level spells would be a nuisance unless used in conjunction with greater spells. the other key would be the individual players. PCs have an advantage as they are supposed to win. plus, PCs are given free thought thanks to their players. i can think of numerous times a player did something real surprising and original with his/her spell inventory. alas....and so continues the eternal struggle. not between good and evil, but between Player and DM. >> The area that the tank is in could be scryed with minimal difficulty >> and no risk to the Mage via a mess of potential spells. [snip] Generally, I'd consider the divinition spells to tell the mage things kind of in his own terms rather than an outright view of "reality". Kind of like prophecies in the bible. There are many things in there that talk about high technology and the future, but they received their visions in tems that they could understand... Locusts with stings on the tails, breastplates upon their chests that could not be penetrated. That type of thing. Hence, in divining weaknesses- he'd undoubtedly be told that the monster cannot see in these areas...>> i agree with the "dumbing down" of divination recon. in fact that would add greatly to the magic vs. tank scenario. add a degree of atmosphere without outright stating the answers. << The actual scrying for positional teleporting would be done well through a small creature with clairvoyance, a wizard-eye spell, or a crystal ball and would simply allow the area to be seen to teleport in next to the tank- no technical information would be needed, and little to none would probably be provided.>> aye...wizard eye...one of my favorite spells. imo the scrying would best be served to spy on the tanks and crew. try to seek their weaknesses and possibly plot their course to set up an ambush site. >> The Mage's basic benefits are a generally much higher intelligence, >> and the ability to get much better "Reconnaissance" accomplished >> much quicker. >i don't know. the modern armies require the soldiers to be fairly intelligent. >reading and writing are a must. using and comprehending the high tech weapons >should be considered intelligence based skills. you could even say some >aspects with computers qualify as knowing another language. Intelligence, IIRC, was originally set up in the D&D system based on one of the IQ tests that exist IRL. The particular IQ. test puts the average person at a 90-120 IQ (IE. 9-12 Intelligence), and genius level at a 160+ IQ (16 Int). The average person on earth today tends to run a 9-12 Int. and in that light the average Mage in D&D runs a 13+ making him more intelligent. Also, how many PC mages have you seen running around with a 13 Int.?>> few with PC mages. i can recall a few NPC and prerolled PC mages that were less than geniuses. sort of like a thief with a dexterity of less than 15. or a fighter with a strength of under 14. heck even the ADnD PHB describes various ability score rolling methods to get the best scores. imo a player should roll first and build the PC from those scores. i think that is why most of my PCs were fighters or elves. << Remember that a 13 Int. Mage speaks 3 Languages proficiently which is better than most people on earth have accomplished. He is also literate. Comprehending the "high tech" weapons would indeed be Int. based, but would be a matter o training as well (which is separate from Int. in itself). Take a ballista for example. A mage has no skill whatsoever with it- not because of Int. but because of training. A Mage who trains with a ballista (presuming that the DM would allow this :-) would hit as well with it as he would his own staff.>> yes anything is possible through skills and profs. << Also, have you considered on the "reading and writing" part the fact that Mages must be literate? How else do they write and study their spellbooks? I think you're mixing intelligence as a stat up with training as proficiencies.>> no not really mixing them up. though ability scores are connected to skills and profs. a stat like intelligence denotes one half of the mental capability of the PC. wisdom is the other half. mages are supposed to be learned to carry on their spellcraft. what i spoke of by the tech humans being as smart is about the same thing. take the USMC tank commander. on earth he is a tank commander of high intellect. had he been born and raised on mystara then he may very well of been a mage. so what i am preaching is that the denoted tech troops are not concripts nor are they the F1 soldiers. they are smart, highly trained, and able. to operate tech weaponry they have to be. to be marines they have to be the best. a marine recruit must pass scholastic testing just to get in. << Computer languages would undoubtedly be added languages although once the basis is down for 1 Cmp. Lng. the others are very simple to learn (for the most part anyway.) Problem is that the average person using a computer is not a programmer and seldom understands the language that the program he uses is written in. Thus, just because I run (for example) Win98 does not mean that I have a Language, though it probably does mean that I have computers as a proficiency.>> i have to disagree with the one computer language prof. Win3x, NT, 95, and 98 are enhancements of each other. call them dialects. adaption to each variant is pretty smooth. toss in fortran or unix and the language barrier is evident. egad...i remember fondly the switchovers i had from Apple IIc to Commadore64 then 128 then to Win3.11 and finally/presently Win95. presently you have Win and Mac systems dominating the market so the languages are limited to the two. i am not really sure what language the targetting computers and C&C computers use. a common computer language for the weapons seems to be the most favorable option for continuity and logistics. >> Round-1 >> Teleport should not be a problem for getting the Mage into a blind- >> spot around the tank (or at least under cover within 200-300 yards). >> As the Crew is not even aware of the arrival of our Mage they have >> no appreciable actions. >[snip] >i assume this to be a "first contact" scenario between tankers and mage. blind >spots are a given in a solitary tank encounter. blind spots are negated with a >standard tank platoon with real time recon being fed to the tank crews. but >for the sake of the scenario we'll say for whatever reasons this tank is >operating well ahead of its fellows. Given the scenario being "A Mage Against a Tank", I'd presume this to be the case, although a Tank Platoon against a Mage Platoon would allow the same benefits of teamwork to the mages that the tanks have--- and would become a very complex scenario.>> i am unsure. in light of this thread, i have been looking for one of my military texts involving infantry tank killers. i figured it would be helpful for me to work up and present a mages killing tanks scenario. << As far as the infantry providing "real time" reconnaissance, there is the problem that infantry can be annihilated so easily from such great distances that they are not even a real part of the equation.>> actually the real time recon was to be fed by both infantry within their carriers and other tanks. tanks are interconnected with their communications and computer downlinks to present battlefield info as it happens. infantry itself would benefit from the range of their weapomns and the transport and protection provided by their armoured transports such as M2/3 Brads, Marders, LAVs, Amtracs, M113s, etc. >okay this round based scenario would work. using higher level spells is the >way to go. i will say this though, if i was the tech military commander i'd >accept the loss of a tank if it meant a high level mage had a good chance of >being killed. plus losing one tank is a fair price to gain the recon on what >the natives can do with magic. << Agreed, however, when the lone tank out front was come upon by the military personnel behind it... They see the mid-section gutted by something that powdered the metal, and fried the occupants. The Recon undoubtedly says that "yes a native can approach the tanks, and destroy them". And, in the scenario provided, my first order was to make sure that the Wizard had a high chance of personal survival regarding the situation.>> that's what i meant by real time recon. even limited to nearby tanks the optics range would allow tanks to see the first tank vs. mage duel and learn from it. seeing a tank killed and the crew bailing would see these other tanks spraying the mage with fire....or at least suppression fire. vigilence would be intensified with a shoot first ask questions later attitude. << In a true invasion scenario, however, I'd leave most of the big stuff (like tanks) alone and concentrate on the mass destruction of the infantry through things like the Blink spell, Death Fogs, and Magic Missile. Troops would be harassed on a continual basis by Mages with fairly weak spells and magical traps would abound. Not to mention the potential uses of Magic Items- which were brought into almost none of the scenarios. The idea would be to destroy the tank's tactical support in such a way that larger creatures, and time, could wear the behemoth down. Eventually allowing the Mage to come up with a good counter-attack plan. (Not to mention running out of fuel- but I doubt that that would be part of the Mage's plans). >> imo after a first contact scenario in which the sides would have time to evaluate each other. the lesser mages would have to focus on the infantry and the higher mages on the tanks. howevr, i still think that the infantry would be given some protection from Death Fog with their gas and chemical protection gear. attacking the logistics would be an option. i would say that extensive scrying and analyzation of those tidbits would be needed to discover the logistic weaknesses. with a war of movement like a modern army uses, the defenders may be decimated before this can be done. nations like darokin would be quickly overrun. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #631 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 632 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) RE: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:35:51 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-14 11:20:50 EDT, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes: << >armor. casting a spell into the inside of a tank is not possible imo. imc i >wouldn't allow a mage to attack the interior of a tower or galleon from the >outside. imo that's dirty pool. > Why not? You`re allowing hi-tech to have punch through munitions so how come magic has more restraint? Anyway in a war of this magnitude dirty pool is what the losers usewd not the winners remember it`s the winnerswho write the histories of how it `really` happened. BTW whilst this is fun isn`t it time we agreed that Top of range from bothmagic and tech cause much more collateral damage than actual harm to opposition. >> well it's like placing pcs in an impossible to escape situation. you have to offer them a way to work through the situation. that's one of the reasons i rarely use no saves and kill you dead spells. i'd equate dirty pool to the tech invasion unit bringing in their own weapons of mass destruction. or even delayed a direct assault and nuked the major cities first. then land the ground troops to mop up and consolidate. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:35:57 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 98-09-14 12:21:11 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: << > > As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for > it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort > of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain > age? In a certain place? > Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers": I wonder if they've adressed this question. If so, they might have good answers. >> for my alphatian gazs i am using the tried and true DMs choice clause. magic ability is declared based upon parents class. two mages would be more likely to produce mages. a nonspellcaster and a mage would be less likely. possible game use comes into play too. the mundaner living under the shadow of his/her mage sibling is wonderful material. deciding whether an alphatian pc is a mage is up to the player. if the player wants to be a mage, cleric, fighter, etc. that is their call. as for detecting magical ability i'd say the alphatians have developed a detect type spell to do this. considering the volume of people to be tested this would have to be a lower level spell so that supply could meet the demand. this spell could be the first round to thin down the numbers. more specialized spells could follow to be sure of mage ability. as for policing their magic, i'd say the alphatians preach selecting mates to offer the best chance of mage children. selective breeding. but being alphatians they do not always practice what they preach. given the slack attitude for longterm partnerships this is not a problem. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:36:12 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-14 14:29:35 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >charm spells are interesting to ponder. charms can be broken. through >rationalization. tanker attitudes of unity and teamwork can "pursuade" an >affcted crewman to snap out of it. the loader, not looking out can simply pimp >slap an affected crewman back into reality. the contemporary tank crew lay out >is based on teamwork, confidence, and efficiency. Nice. So charm person is foiled by teamwork? I dont think so...>> more like comraderie. mutual reliance. sort of like a charmed person's buddies trying to tell them the real deal. the problem being that one of the crew has to make a save and then realize the fellas are charmed. >no there just isn't a canon reference key to easily compare magic to tech. you >assume that a 120mm HEAT or SABOT round is equivelent to a catapult >projectile. imo that is ludicrous. velocity and impact characteristics are the >two most differing factors. to compare them on a similar level would be like >comparing a bow and arrow to an assault rifle. In terms of type of damage, in xD+D philosophy, they are the same thing. It is a missile weapon, at the end of the day, not fire, not lightning, not disintegration, but a missile attack. It is not quasi magical. Think of it merely as a catapult which inflicts 100hp a hit, instead of 10hp a hit. However much damage it inflicts, however, at the end of the day certain spells would provide a defence. It is still a missile weapon!>> i was going by the high velocity and alien construction and materials for the SABOT round. the HEAT round is a super heat weapon and beats the classic fireball and flame strike. > >spells like the Death Spell are effectively weapons of mass destruction. as >such, id offer a survival chance based on NBC equipment and gas/chemical >equipment carried by the infantry. though admitedly this counter applies more >to Death Fog. So now you are saying that an NBC system will protect against a death spell? uh huh... you will be saying that chobham armour prevents ethereal travel or teleport spells in a minute. How exactly do you envision this? All an NBC system is a radiation resistant coat (basically something like lead plating) and an internal overpressure system.>> NBC protects the interior through shielding and cleans the interior air. death fog is an equivelent of bio/chem weapons so yes i'd let the NBC offer some protection. > <<(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself? > Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire armoury.) >>> > >how is a mage using wraithform going to take out the entire USMC? that mage >cannot attack the troops so is a moot point. since certain weapons like a 40mm >grenade launcher or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as >offensive magical spells i'd allow them to harm the wraithform mage. you see, thats the difference in attitude. A claymore mine is nonmagical. How exactly is a volley of ballbearings (essentially what it is) able to strike an ethereal target, when a normal sword is not? Seems ludicrous to me... >> look at is as the weapons effect. plus the material composition. adamantite acts as a +1 weapon right. so what is so different from tungsten alloy and depleted uranium spikes that are much more denser than steel. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:36:29 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-14 14:31:44 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >< may be if the crew promptly about face and go back the way they came, but > they arent going to know whats going on...>> > >actually being a fog based attack NBC gear for the tank would protect the >crew. imo a RW equivelant for the Death Fog spell would be nerve gas or >nuclear fallout. I was actually thinking of the Death Fog turning the tank into a steaming pool of acidic mucus, but anyway...>> think of it as the death fog being the equivelent of chemical or biological gas/weapons. nerve gas. <> entrance only needs to be the width of a tank. this could be secured with a barricade and/or a few stretched coils of razorwire. these points would be heavily guarded too. AirLand2000 is based upon a Soviet Bloc attack. the doctrine is for defensive maneuvering in small units with these units acting independantly. the goal being to hold off the attack until reinforcements are assembled for counterattacks. an invasion force would use the war of movement tactics of Desert Storm and lest i say Blitzkreig. <> that kind of goes along with the unseen servant spiking the tank barrel. imo an unseen servant is noncorporal as it is a shapelress formless mass of force. it is only solid at the point it touches something. never seen a situation where a pc bumps into an unseen servant. >< damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the Mighty Fortress book).>> > >i could agree with that in certain situations. what does it give for >scattershot? there could be a comparison with fragmentation weapons such as >the claymore and grenade. 5d10 for shrapnel in a line 100' and 5' across at the far end, save vs spell for half. >> hmm....howabout grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:10:37 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics > looking for. And sure, it's often cleaner to boil it all down to fighting for > power, with clearly drawn lines of battle, but I'm talking about the messy > side of things. History, literature, and sadly our own current newspaper > headlines provide too many examples of this to be missing from Mystara. > Touche'. Point taken. And you're quite right: there should be messy marriage ties between almost all the important ruling (and influential non-ruling) families in Mystara (or at least thouse of a given region). Of course, it may not mean much (most of the nations who went to war in WWI had ruling families that were connected through blood ties). And it *is* a nice way to make things more messily interesting. My main quibble was with the idea stated in the initial point that marriage between so and so and thus and such would be a good way to aquire new territory (rich cities or whatever). Hmmmn. . . .here's an area where canon kind of gets in the way, since most of the "important" families have already been described, and they are tight little circles (with marriage ties only to families within their own country, and generally ties that are uninteresting in that they reflect a "hive mind"; I.E. in Karameikos, with the royal family now joined to the Hyraksii, but their isn't a dime's worth of difference between a Karameikos and a Hyraksos. They could be said to have a "hive mind". Come to think of it, I've often thought that the Karameikii have one brain, which they use like a "time share condo". Too bad Stefan never gets a turn with it <-----Gratuitous Stefan Insult #4983). This would make it hard to forge a "web of intrigue" based on who married who's cousin and who's daughter married who's son; you'd almost have to scrap canon to get that, which is too bad. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:15:04 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > > Which makes me wonder...Aside from convenience in categorization, do you > really think that Nyx should be considered Entropic? She seems to me to > fit better perhaps in Matter... > He he he (you might not know why I laugh, but I brought this up myself a couple weeks ago. We decided, to the extent that anything is decided, that 1) Nyx is a sweetie (because she just is). and 2) Nyx belongs in Entropy (because of her fostering of undead as the ideal, and wanting to turn everyone into undead). As someone else reciently wrote, not *all* Entropics should nessisarily be evil bad guys. Nyx is a fine example of a non-evil one. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:28:01 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-14 09:39:40 Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: > As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for > it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort > of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain > age? In a certain place? One possibility (loosely inspired by the "Netheril" material for the Forgotten Realms) is that Alphatian wizards attempt to teach cantrips (simple, zero level spells) to their children. Those who can learn them easily can be (and usually are) trained to become Mages, while those who cannot learn them at all are deemed to have no magical talent and are trained for other careers. If those without talent fail to attract the favorable attention of an Immortal, then they are without any spellcasting ability and are pitied as the failures that they are in Alphatian society. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:58:01 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-14 12:20:22 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > If in your campaign this kind of education > system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a > focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered > there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so > that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice. Why would a lie, noble or otherwise, be necessary? The children are being tested for the talent that would qualify them to become Alphatian aristocrats. What parents would not want their children to have the chance to join the ruling class? Parents who are unwilling to have their children tested for magical talent could be "punished" simply by being left alone -- there would be more than enough willing test subjects so that "drafting" the children of those unwilling to submit their children to the test would be unnecessary. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:58:04 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? In a message dated 1998-09-14 12:42:40 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > Ie, I dont like > this thing about there being something about mystaras physics that > interferr with high technology and this makes a mess. If we want something > restricting technology, we should at least include a theory that makes > sense and that sounds cool. It seems that you are ignoring one very basic difference between our world and Mystara -- on Mystara, magic of a sort that is impossible by the laws of real world physics works. Nevertheless, my own personal opinion is that any item of high technology that finds its way to Mystara is transformed into an equivalent item that will work there. Using such items is risky not because the technology does not work but because magic does -- and these items were most likely designed to work in a universe that is not much more magical than ours is. One advantage of supposing that Mystaran physics differ in subtle ways from real world physics is that you cannot use real world history as a guide for technological development on Mystara -- the Mystarans must figure out everything from scratch just as people in the real world did. And the answers that they come up with will combine magic and fantasy physics to create wondrous new devices -- and perhaps they will eventually create a world that is more advanced than our own. They have a long way to go, of course, but I think that it is safe to assume that Mystara will change radically in the coming centuries even if the draining of magic is slowed or stopped. Of course, if the magic drain continues, then eventually Glantri will be utterly destroyed and Mystara will become completely mundane -- and since such a world would be rather boring, I would rather not see the draining continue to that point. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:53:59 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) Hello Alex, I thought I'd answer your responses- and sort of take part in the rest of the conversations that you're having with other members of the list. Quite interesting actually. >>Imagine a Death Fog spell! No tank will make it out of there... >>Well, they may if the crew promptly about face and go aback the >>way they came, but they aren't going to know what's going on... >Actually being a fog based attack, NBC gear for the tank would >protect the crew. IMO a RW equivalent for the Death Fog spell >would be nerve gas or nuclear fallout. >think of it as the death fog being the equivelent of chemical or >biological gas/weapons. nerve gas. Ahh. According to the book- I'd have to say no on both counts. First off, I believe that the tank would indeed have "Hull points" which means 10 hp. of damage must be done to the vehicle per 1 hull point. Damage only accrues as long as the tank is in the vapors. Thus, it would have to be doing donuts or something in the fog to lose all of its hull points before it either a) cleared the fog, or b) the spell ended. As far as NBC gear protecting the crew- this is a yes until the Fog breached the tank by destroying exposed rubber fittings that aid in that protection... I don't know how easily that would occur, but I will say that opening that breech would do it. Since the fog appears rather suddenly- the crew may not have time to button things down though, and if they closed down with the fog in the tank... Remember that a very strong wind (greater than gust of wind) is required to move the fog, so the air filtering system in the tank would not be able to clear it. Troops out in the fog would be protected very temporarily by the fog before it ate through the rubber on their masks, and even the outfits that they wear. Thinking of it as nerve gas would work but then it needs to be mixed with white phosphorous for the acidic affect. >>And how about an Unseen Servant wandering through all the >>traps and setting them off, while the wraithformed and invisible >>mage sneaks in the other side and death spells the camp? >that kind of goes along with the unseen servant spiking the tank >barrel. imo an unseen servant is noncorporal as it is a shapelress >formless mass of force. it is only solid at the point it touches >something. never seen a situation where a pc bumps into an >unseen servant. On this point- I have to ask how often Unseen Servant has played a role in your games? First off, it is capable of lifting and of being destroyed by normal attacks- this would make it a tangible force that I think could indeed set off the traps. >>>For comparison, being hit by a 16-17th century cannon ball >>>does d12 x 5 damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the >>>Mighty Fortress book). >>>i could agree with that in certain situations. what does it give for >>>scattershot? there could be a comparison with fragmentation >>>weapons such as the claymore and grenade. >> 5d10 for shrapnel in a line 100' and 5' across at the far end, >>save vs spell for half. >hmm....howabout >grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. >light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. >claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. The only response that I've really got to this part of the thread is: I like it :-) >I agree with the "dumbing down" of divination recon. in fact that >would add greatly to the magic vs. tank scenario. add a degree of >atmosphere without outright stating the answers. I'm glad you liked that idea :-) >aye...wizard eye...one of my favorite spells. Imo the scrying would >best be served to spy on the tanks and crew. try to seek their >weaknesses and possibly plot their course to set up an ambush >site. These were the ideas that I had when I brought up divination and scrying. I just wasn't sure how to word it correctly to make the point clear without missing some technical aspect. >I have to disagree with the one computer language prof. Win3x, >NT, 95, and 98 are enhancements of each other. call them >dialects. adaption to each variant is pretty smooth. toss in Fortran >or Unix and the language barrier is evident. >egad...I remember fondly the switchovers I had from Apple IIc to >Commadore64 then 128 then to Win3.11.11 and finally/presently >Win95. >presently you have Win and Mac systems dominating the market >so the languages are limited to the two. i am not really sure what >language the targeting computers and C&C computers use. a >common computer language for the weapons seems to be the >most favorable option for continuity and logistics. I had a feeling that you were going to make those points. We are disagreeing over terminology, not point of view here. Let's take this from the top. I'm under the presumption that you are talking about *operating* these systems as opposed to *programming* them? If this is the case- usage differs from one package to another and general packages would probably be proficiencies, but they would work in groups. For example, Data-bases, Spreadsheets, Word-processors, Windows would each be a group under individual proficiencies for usage. However, what I was discussing is *programming* as opposed to *operating* a computer. Here Apple, Tandy, Commodore, and Mac all used the BASIC programming language. Newer programs are written in C (and its variations), BASIC (and its variations- but not usually just BASIC or GWBASIC), Fortran, and HTML. Once you've got the working knowledge of a programming language- most all others are fairly simple to learn because you're not changing the procedure, you're changing the syntax. If this were equated to learning a language, it would be like you knowing English- then when you picked up French all of the grammar and sentence structure was basically the same- only the words changed. That would make learning additional languages much easier needless to say. >>>okay this round based scenario would work. using higher level >>>spells is the way to go. i will say this though, if i was the tech >>>military commander I'd accept the loss of a tank if it meant a >>>high level mage had a good chance of being killed. plus losing >>>one tank is a fair price to gain the recon on what the natives can >>>do with magic. >>Agreed, however, when the lone tank out front was come upon by >>the military personnel behind it... They see the mid-section gutted >>by something that powdered the metal, and fried the occupants. >> The Recon undoubtedly says that "yes a native can approach >>the tanks, and destroy them". And, in the scenario provided, my >>first order was to make sure that the Wizard had a high chance >>of personal survival regarding the situation. >that's what i meant by real time recon. even limited to nearby tanks >the optics range would allow tanks to see the first tank vs. mage >duel and learn from it. seeing a tank killed and the crew bailing >would see these other tanks spraying the mage with fire....or at >least suppression fire. vigilance would be intensified with a shoot >first ask questions later attitude. Adding the "back-up" soldiery and tanks into the scenario would undoubtedly mean that we can bring other mages into the picture as well. The events being watched from afar, and firing on the wizard would both be stopped easily enough by the various Wall spells (immediate thought anyway). This would allow the Mage to slip in, do his deed, and slip out while the "back-up" is working its way through the various barriers established by the other mages. In a tank platoon, these same barriers could cause interruptions in tank crews relaying information to each other as well. >Imo after a first contact scenario in which the sides would have >time to evaluate each other. the lesser mages would have to focus >on the infantry and the higher mages on the tanks. however, i still >think that the infantry would be given some protection from Death >Fog with their gas and chemical protection gear. This is agreed (see above notes on the Death Fog). >attacking the logistics would be an option. i would say that >extensive scrying and analyzation of those tidbits would be >needed to discover the logistic weaknesses. with a war of >movement like a modern army uses, the defenders may be >decimated before this can be done. nations like Darokin would be >quickly overrun. While populations and "standard" armies would indeed be decimated by a modern army, the Spell-casters and Psionicists would have a "hold-out" ability that makes most guerillas in today's world look like a joke. Then you've got the almost Viet-nam like affect of the Thieves in the cities and the Rangers (and Druids) in the wilderness who, IMO, would make these soldiers look like the VC made our soldiers look in that same war. >>>charm spells are interesting to ponder. charms can be broken. >>>through rationalization. tanker attitudes of unity and teamwork >>>can "persuade" an affected crewman to snap out of it. the >>>loader, not looking out can simply pimp slap an affected >>>crewman back into reality. the contemporary tank crew lay out >>>is based on teamwork, confidence, and efficiency. >>Nice. So charm person is foiled by teamwork? >>I don't think so... >more like comraderie. mutual reliance. sort of like a charmed >person's buddies trying to tell them the real deal. the problem >being that one of the crew has to make a save and then realize >the fellas are charmed. Because of the "enhanced vision" afforded by sights, I'd think that the crews would suffer severe penalties to their saves against charm spells. As for charm spells being broken by rationalization, unity, teamwork, "pimp-slapping", and comraderie. I cannot agree with this one. Charm Person is a spell that will allow a character to be forced to fight his own party for example. Now, in party's that I've played in/GM'd, there were spouses and lovers who victimized each other because of various types of charm. Tank Crews (or any other "brotherhood") is not going to be any stronger than the party of adventurers. Example, the army goes out in the field a lot. This is said to be one of the best ways to build that "comraderie" and "teamwork" that you talked about above. Adventurers do it *all the time* How much closer are they than the tank crew? Especially if you're talking about 9th+ level characters who've probably saved the world a couple of times. >>> you assume that a 120mm HEAT or SABOT round is >>>equivalent to a catapult projectile. Imo that is ludicrous. velocity >>>and impact characteristics are the two most differing factors. to >>>compare them on a similar level would be like comparing a >>>bow and arrow to an assault rifle. >>In terms of type of damage, in xD+D philosophy, they are the >>same thing. It is a missile weapon, at the end of the day, not fire, >>not lightning, not disintegration, but a missile attack. It is not >>quasi magical. Think of it merely as a catapult which inflicts >>100hp a hit, instead of 10hp a hit. However much damage it >>inflicts, however, at the end of the day certain spells would >>provide a defense. It is still a missile weapon! >i was going by the high velocity and alien construction and >materials for the SABOT round. the HEAT round is a super heat >weapon and beats the classic fireball and flame strike. On these points- the HEAT round would indeed be much like a Fireball IMO. However, a SABOT round would be much more like a "Quality" weapon. IE. Effectively +1 to hit but as a *non-magical bonus*. Before posting your objection to this- see the notes below where you're talking about material composition of the equipment :-) >>>spells like the Death Spell are effectively weapons of mass >>>destruction. as such, id offer a survival chance based on NBC >>>equipment and gas/chemical equipment carried by the >>>infantry. though admittedly this counter applies more to Death >>>Fog. >>So now you are saying that an NBC system will protect against >>a death spell? >>uh huh... you will be saying that chobham armor prevents >>ethereal travel or teleport spells in a minute. How exactly do >>you envision this? All an NBC system is a radiation resistant >>coat (basically something like lead plating) and an internal >>overpressure system. >NBC protects the interior through shielding and cleans the interior >air. death fog is an equivalent of bio/chem weapons so yes I'd let >the NBC offer some protection. Some protection is the key word here. Close attention to detail as the fog is acidic and the tank remaining in the cloud for too long would be penetrated. Even Chemical Defense suits would eventually be compromised by Death Fog, but it would take some time on both counts. >>>>>(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform >>>>>cast upon himself? Basically, they have no means of >>>>>stopping the guy in their entire armory.) >>>>how is a mage using Wraithform going to take out the entire >>>>USMC? that mage cannot attack the troops so is a moot >>>>point. I wouldn't think it a moot point. The guy in Wraithform can gain reconnaissance this way. He could also leave Wraithform to take opportunities that normally would not be afforded a normal person. >>>>since certain weapons like a 40mm grenade launcher >>>>or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as >>>offensive magical spells I'd allow them to harm the Wraithform >>>mage. The HEAT round would have to be compared to the Wraithform spell on the basis of a Fireball. A claymore mine, I do not think is comparable to a spell. Again see below before the rebuttal. I wouldn't allow a HEAT round to be as effective as I would WP, Thermite, or a Flame-thrower however. >>you see, that's the difference in attitude. A claymore >>mine is nonmagical. How exactly is a volley of ballbearings >>(essentially what it is) able to strike an ethereal target, when a >>normal sword is not? Seems ludicrous to me... >look at is as the weapons effect. plus the material composition. >adamantite acts as a +1 weapon right. so what is so different >from tungsten alloy and depleted uranium spikes that are much >more denser than steel. Adamantite is capable of holding a +1 enchantment. It is not inherently +1. The difference is a spell called "Enchant an Item" which the mage has when he turns that +0 High Quality Sword into a +1 Magical sword. The machines are capable of making a +0 High Quality set of ball-bearings, but they've got no way to empower them magically. There's your difference. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:37:37 +0200 From: Kristian Kramer Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? Fabrizio wrote > Someone (forgot who) in the Technomagic discussion said that bullets > are > just missile weapon, so what about using a Displacer Cloak. > From the RC description of a Displacer Cloak: "(...) most missile will > automatically miss". > A mage with such a cloak has a high chance of getting into spell range > without being hit... if we consider bullets as standard missiles. > [Kristian Kramer] I think you are right. It would be impossible to hit someone who is appearing en reappearing (with no detectable pattern). It would be better than invisible, because some people argue that automatic fire controls (guided by radar or something) could still see you. I doubt that, but with the Displacer Cloak (or spell) you could do it and disable (disintegrate) the tank. Or what about a dimension door or something, if it would be large enough the tank (when driving too fast to stop) would drive through it. Goodbye tank! I don't know the exact spells for this, but someone else may. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:43:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs > I don't necessarily think that psionics need to be dropped from >Mystara; they could add a unique aspect and some world-spanning >revisions. My objection to the Red Steel implementation is that it seems >as though psionics was just grafted onto Mystara without much thought >into Red Steel's past. Well, looking at the Savage Baronies breakdown of classes, 1% of the population represents multiclasses, bards and psionicists, so I would say personally that the psionicist was the rarest of those, making them comprise an almost negligible percentage of the population, a percentage pretty well unable to make much of an influence on the Savage Coast as a whole. And where everyone has a Legacy, a wild talent is going to go unnoticed. I think it was grafted on, but what more did you really want? Wild magic is mentioned as well, and I think that the twisted Nithian magics that make up part of the Red Curse are probably one of the best places on Mystara for wild magic to be found (the other being Alfheim). And as the Herathians are studying the effects of the curse round the clock to try and combat it, i think this is the place where wild magic comes from. OK - there is nothing canonical to back this view up, but from what is written the above view makes sense, and I think it hangs together quite well. This stuff also really does distinguish the Coast from the rest of Mystara, which is good. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:54:55 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs >>I don't know...I already have guns hanging out in the SC without >>allowing them to spread widely--do we also need to find a way to keep >>psionics regional? Would this make the rest of the world "backwards" in >>comparison? well, thats easily done. It takes a psionicist to train a psionicist, and if they are all on the Savage Coast with no intention of leaving thats where they will stay... I think that some sort of smokepowderesque means of limiting psionics (ie it doesnt work off the Coast) completely goes against what the class is about, so I would discard that out of hand. A psionicist draws power from himself, he doesnt manipulate external forces, he doesnt require material components, he carries the power within him. However - i think that to actually be a psionicist (in a addition to having some rather tight ability score restrictions) there must be some sort of genetic thing here as well. More so than magic, the concept of psionics being the next evolutionary phase is a common one (Homo superior as opposed to Homo sapiens :). I would say that the Red Curse has had an effect on a tiny percentage of those living on the Coast, awakening their sleeping psionic potential. Those not from the Savage Coast may not be able to learn psionics at all, if the DM so decides. Personally tho, I prefer the existing method of limiting psionics - the paragraph headed "Burn Him!" in the Psionics Handbook. I definitely like the idea of the Alphatians trying to cull these guys - the Savage Coast is a long way away from Alphatia, so perhaps Alphatia has not noticed whats going on on the other side of the planet. Besides, the armies of the Savage Coast are very powerful - a massive proportion of the population has a class, thanks to the rough frontier life, as opposed to the teeming masses of 0-level humans that fill other nations. Everyone has a Legacy (looking at the War Machine, that makes a massive difference). Firearms are available, and only really accessible to the natives in a defensive role. The Alphatians probably couldnt do anything to drastic anyway, because in a large operation they would get kicked. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #632 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 633 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Psionicists Order ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:04:48 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery >more like comraderie. mutual reliance. sort of like a charmed person's buddies >trying to tell them the real deal. the problem being that one of the crew has >to make a save and then realize the fellas are charmed. > Well, maybe. But if this is combat situation (and it will be), the rest of the crew will probably be too busy peering through sights or barking orders to notice that their buddy has been charmed. And though it may be possible to talk him round (I think restraining him would be necessary, personally) the tank is out of it for several rounds. > >no there just isn't a canon reference key to easily compare magic to tech. Well, there is. The Tale of the Comet has an entire chapter based around magic vs tech. Each has its advantages, and its disadvantages. But IMHO magic is ultimately superior. Magic can duplicate everything that technology can, and then some. Well, standing in a furnace inflicts 2d6 damage per round (thats what you take for standing unprotected in the Elemental Plane of Fire). A fireball inflicts an average of 35 damage at 10th level, this is pretty darn impressive. I think that magic is underrated, the amount of damage a fireball inflicts is really quite staggering compared to nonmagical flames. > >spells like the Death Spell are effectively weapons of mass destruction. as > >such, id offer a survival chance based on NBC equipment and gas/chemical > >equipment carried by the infantry. though admitedly this counter applies > more > >to Death Fog. > So now you are saying that an NBC system will protect against a death spell? > uh huh... you will be saying that chobham armour prevents ethereal travel > or teleport spells in a minute. How exactly do you envision this? All an > NBC system is a radiation resistant coat (basically something like lead > plating) and an internal overpressure system.>> > >NBC protects the interior through shielding and cleans the interior air. death >fog is an equivelent of bio/chem weapons so yes i'd let the NBC offer some >protection. Death fog does acid damage, to the tank. I wasnt really assuming that the crew would get hit by it. > > <<(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself? > > Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire > armoury.) > >>> > > > >how is a mage using wraithform going to take out the entire USMC? that mage > >cannot attack the troops so is a moot point. he can position himself where he wants with impunity, volley off a few death spells (each of which wipes out an entire platoon on average) and then wraithforms out again. > you see, thats the difference in attitude. A claymore mine is nonmagical. > How exactly is a volley of ballbearings (essentially what it is) able to > strike an ethereal target, when a normal sword is not? Seems ludicrous to > me... >> > >look at is as the weapons effect. plus the material composition. adamantite >acts as a +1 weapon right. so what is so different from tungsten alloy and >depleted uranium spikes that are much more denser than steel. Adamantite gives a -1AC bonus to armour, AFAIK thats all it does (and its required to make +5 weapons). I certainly wouldnt say that stuff like tungsten alloy is magical, because Glantrian alchemists can make this stuff. Metals like tungsten have been known for a long time irl, stretching back to immediately post Renaissance (Mendelev). As alchemists are magical chemists, and as the first circle ability allows them to extract pure substances (read - elements) from their ores, in a lot of ways alchemy is comparable to modern chemistry. Of course, tungsten steel is probably just a mere curiosity lying in some Alchemists lab, but anyway - the ability is there :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:25:53 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic > I was actually thinking of the Death Fog turning the tank into a steaming > pool of acidic mucus, but anyway...>> > >think of it as the death fog being the equivelent of chemical or biological >gas/weapons. nerve gas. Well, it does acid damage, which would affect the tank itself. Cumulative acid damage too, the damage a Death Fog can inflict is really quite hideous. >AirLand2000 is based upon a Soviet Bloc attack. the doctrine is for defensive >maneuvering in small units with these units acting independantly. the goal >being to hold off the attack until reinforcements are assembled for >counterattacks. an invasion force would use the war of movement tactics of >Desert Storm and lest i say Blitzkreig. I was under the impression that AirLand2000 was just a new name for Blitz warfare. It has defensive and offensive characteristics, yes? > < them off, while the wraithformed and invisible mage sneaks in the other side > and death spells the camp?>> > >that kind of goes along with the unseen servant spiking the tank barrel. imo >an unseen servant is noncorporal as it is a shapelress formless mass of force. >it is only solid at the point it touches something. never seen a situation >where a pc bumps into an unseen servant. well, you could have it depress all the grass in the area of effect :) > >< > damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the Mighty Fortress book).>> > > > >i could agree with that in certain situations. what does it give for > >scattershot? there could be a comparison with fragmentation weapons such as > >the claymore and grenade. > > 5d10 for shrapnel in a line 100' and 5' across at the far end, save vs spell > for half. >> > >hmm....howabout >grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. >light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. >claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. *digs out Tale of the Comet* grenade 20' blast radius, 6d6 damage, save vs breath weapon for half magnum cannon (read - M60) 5d4 damage, or 4d10 damage burst fire (hit rolls at -4, but strike all targets within 20' radius area) flame thrower 2d6 damage immediately, further 2d6 next round, 1d6 round after that missile rack, high explosive 12d6 damage in a 40' blast radius (ouch!), save vs breath at -4 for half damage missile rack, incendiary (read - WP) 3d8 damage per round for d6+4 rounds (ouch!), cannot be extinguished nonmagically RAEL ASSAULT TANK AC : -4 Movement : 24 Hit point : 80 Weapons : heavy blaster cannon (12d6 damage to target), magnum cannon, some tanks also have missile rack or flamethrower. High tech targets are immune to normal weapons. High tech weapons inflict normal damage to high tech targets. Magical weapons inflict 1 point of damage per magical + of weapon. High tech weaponry ignores medieval armour, only the magical + counts for determining armour class. Spells :- heat metal - if cast on electronics, has a slow spells affect on round 1, shorts out target on round 2 electricity based attacks - ditto, a lightning bolt would short out a tank if it fails a save vs lightning. Note that magical lightning isnt impeded by insulators. Invisibility - high tech sensory devices are so acute that they receive only a -1 penalty to hit against invisible targets (damn! guess u got me here alex!) forget - wipes programming language on computerised targets, a failed save causes the targets computers to crash (! - weird) Disintegrate - failed save = death of target Animate object - will destroy a high tech target if it fails its save (there are many others) most attack forms like fireball do normal damage, but note the hit points of the tank. High tech targets save as Metal, weapons are more delicate and have their own special table. Anyway, those are the yardsticks by which i work when dealing with technology... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:32:02 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic >hmm....howabout >grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. >light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. >claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. hmm - howabout claymore mines loaded with red steel shrapnel? (Red steel cannon balls/grapeshot has been employed IMC :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:21:56 EDT From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi In a message dated 9/15/98 5:47:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes: << I would still opt for Zugzul = Ixion. Could I convince you? 5000 years ago Ixion probably was still a mighty Immortal but not the ruling hierarch. >> IIRC, one of the later DA modules talks about Zugzul's mortal life. That goes againt the historyless Ixion. But his chaotic actions are similar to Ixion's. - --- -- --Criptonite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:19:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Thanks for filling me in, James. To everyone, sorry for bringing up an old thread. I guess that must have been discussed just before I came back. (I came in when Valerias was being bandied about for Energy). Oops...:-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Well, there have bertainly been some great ideas for testing for spellcasting ability, and I've saved them all. I think that the simple approach is usually the best, as far as any type of ability check is concerned, so I may just use the "cantrip" approach, at least for now. [Of course, I don't really have a whole lot of Alphatians hanging around any more (...glug...:) just the refugees.] But thanks for the great ideas. And a quick rant, if you'll indulge me... About the "wish" for magical ability, I think it's a shame that such a glaring oversight was made in canon (#9,469,389...still counting...). To try to weaken the Alphatians (I suppose for balance in a campaign that was set up to be always stalemated with Thyatis) by taking away their magical potntial is fine, BUT Allston should not have left an avenue of recourse as obvious as "wish." This has been (by everyone's letters) VERY difficult to explain away. Oh, as far as frustrations with DotE is concerned, was I the only one who was disappointed that the most heinous spell that the world's most magical culture (one which includes the nasties in Blackheart, I might add) could come up with was the 'Sleeping Beauty" spell??? :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:42:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes The gnomes of Serraine...They figured out how to use a jet engine to power their flying city. They fly it all over the world. Couldn't they conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the different physical properties of Mystara prevent this from happening (like I proposed a couple of weeks ago, that for instance the RW ingredients for gunpowder just make something else on Mystara), or do we have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:45:56 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics In a message dated 98-09-16 02:47:47 EDT, you write: (Thanks . . . and nice return to the backhand) << This would make it hard to forge a "web of intrigue" based on who married who's cousin and who's daughter married who's son; you'd almost have to scrap canon to get that, which is too bad. >> But then again, some of the worst fighting can be family fighting (Lion in Winter?) I don't have my Kar. Gaz. info with me, but are they really all that sickly sweet? Remember, this is the same gene pool that produced the Black Baron . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:01:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > > Why would a lie, noble or otherwise, be necessary? The children are being > tested for the talent that would qualify them to become Alphatian aristocrats. > What parents would not want their children to have the chance to join the > ruling class? > Of course it would; after all, these children are being brought into the class that opresses their (non-magical) parents in all kinds of ways. The lie is perpetuated at the very begining by, of course, insuring that everyone looks forward to the day when one member of their family will rise into the same class that holds the rest of their family in bondage. But they need *do* to be indoctrinated into "buying into the system", into believing that this is right and proper. Of course, it might be easy: after all, several members of the seem to have MML have "bought into" the Alphatian system, and (IMO with reckless abandon) consider it as good for the non-"talented" as it is for the spellcasting elite. Someone who's parents may have been horribly treated slaves or members of the almost equally badly treated servant class (I.E. the bulk of society), well, they might have (nacient) other ideas about how non-wonderful this system is. That's why you have to take them while they're young (before their attitudes take hold). Then you can convince them that this system is the best of all possible worlds. As you yourself imply, it shouldn't be too hard. . . . IMO, you're right in one sense: it *isn't* a "noble lie". It is a very ignoble one. > Parents who are unwilling to have their children tested for > magical talent could be "punished" simply by being left alone > You imply that non-spellcasting Alphatians are given freedom of choice in the matter. IMO, highly unlikely at best. Everyone is tested (and if you think that is outragious, well, in most modern countries, even in most modern democratic countries, education is mandatory). The slaves and servants cannot "opt out" of the system. I suppose a member of the aristocracy could probably get away with not having their children tested (since they are free), but would they want to? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:06:30 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 10:19 AM > > Thanks for filling me in, James. To everyone, sorry for bringing up an > old thread. I guess that must have been discussed just before I came > back. > Well, there's no reason to not go over old threads again; after all, new people add new perspectives (one hopes) and even folks who saw the last one might have different ideas now. Anyhow, that post wasn't meant to stifle debate, just to re-capsulate what the previous discussion was. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:13:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > > Oh, as far as frustrations with DotE is concerned, was I the only one > who was disappointed that the most heinous spell that the world's most > magical culture (one which includes the nasties in Blackheart, I might > add) could come up with was the 'Sleeping Beauty" spell??? :-) > Well, in some respects that is a very, very, very, powerful spell. For example, look at the size (canon) of Sundsvall and Thyatis (the city) maps? 1"=1,000 feet. Now look at the area the spell can affect. Now, imagine you're a creative, vindictive Wizard. Though the spell puts a few limits on what the "key action" to break the spell can be, IMO it sould be fairly easy for a creative, vindictive Wizard (especially a PC who isn't held to the same standards as the poor DM*) to come up with a "key action" that is effectively impossible to perform. *The poor DM is held to "it should be challenging, but possible to achieve" (so the game stays enjoyable rather than being an exercise in futility) while the goal of the Player is usually to make it impossible. Therefore, I never make this spell (or any like it) available. Oh, and I'm of the belief that if an NPC can cast a spell, a PC could learn or reasurch it (I have no "NPCs Only" biases in my campaigns regarding what character classes exist and what they can and can't do). There's enough stuff a malevolent DM can come up with for NPCs to wreak havoc without introducing something outlandish. But I'm starting to digress wildly, so I'll stop. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:19:35 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics > > But then again, some of the worst fighting can be family fighting (Lion in > Winter?) I don't have my Kar. Gaz. info with me, but are they really all that > sickly sweet? Remember, this is the same gene pool that produced the Black > Baron . . . > All the members of the Royal Family are pretty tight. Ok, Olivia (who gets to use the brain most of the time, it seems) isn't "sickly sweet", but she's loyal (ok, she didn't want Adriana, who also gets use of the brain on occassion, to be chosen as Stefan's heir, but what is she gonna do about it? Pull an Irene? *rolls eyes*. . .never happen). Olivia is the family's "backbone", the steel amid wet noodles, the "enforcer" most responsible for any success the Karameikii may have had. That's not really family feud. Hmmmn. . . .*ponders whether to tell the Irene story or not*. . . .not for now, I guess. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:34:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics "Lion in Winter," indeed... No, they're not all sickly sweet. Adriana and Olivia hate each other. Justin's mommy's pawn, pretty much, so that coul get him into some trouble (although he seems like a nice guy personally). Valen--who knows? "Turtle" is a little TOO quiet...And of course, I won't even mention Stefan...(ha ha ha ha ha)...Sorry, he makes me laugh... Also, depending on WHEN you're playing, you could have a few more options, especially for marriages. We're really far ahead IMC, so Argent is all grown up (don't ask what happened to Lucien...). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:38:57 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >The gnomes of Serraine...They figured out how to use a jet engine to >power their flying city. They fly it all over the world. Couldn't they >conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run >it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the >different physical properties of Mystara prevent this from happening >(like I proposed a couple of weeks ago, that for instance the RW >ingredients for gunpowder just make something else on Mystara), or do we >have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... No need to eliminate the meddling menance. Gnomes have got something going for them, something that has prevented them from receiving the same fate as Blackmoor, Nithis, or even Carnivex. When you get righ down to it, gnomish machienry is (potentially) fantastically powerful; why don't the gnomes translate that into world dominance? The Gray Front has aplan to, and could with Serraine. What has stopped the gnomes from doing so? The reason is that gnomes are incapapble of such misuses of power; it's in their genes. I'm not saying all gnomes are good and kin-hearted; far from, there are many diabolical gnomes who would like nothing more than for the world to cower at their feet (or least the feet of their robot). The schemes of theirs are so hideously convoluted, though, that evil gnomes are Mystara's version of Pinky and the Brain. So smart, and yet so stupid. This is also a problem I have with technomancy as described in the Citadel: while gnomes may not be able to cenceive of an effective evil (or good, for that matter) use of their technology, humans can. That may be why in PC2, it says only a few nagpa can learn fantasy physics, and no one but gnomes can learn machine building. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:44:46 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Not at all. I would point to lack of significant spells and magic items as being one of the major flaws... Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > > Well, there have bertainly been some great ideas for testing for > spellcasting ability, and I've saved them all. I think that the simple > approach is usually the best, as far as any type of ability check is > concerned, so I may just use the "cantrip" approach, at least for now. > [Of course, I don't really have a whole lot of Alphatians hanging around > any more (...glug...:) just the refugees.] But thanks for the great > ideas. > > And a quick rant, if you'll indulge me... > About the "wish" for magical ability, I think it's a shame that such a > glaring oversight was made in canon (#9,469,389...still counting...). To > try to weaken the Alphatians (I suppose for balance in a campaign that > was set up to be always stalemated with Thyatis) by taking away their > magical potntial is fine, BUT Allston should not have left an avenue of > recourse as obvious as "wish." This has been (by everyone's letters) > VERY difficult to explain away. > > Oh, as far as frustrations with DotE is concerned, was I the only one > who was disappointed that the most heinous spell that the world's most > magical culture (one which includes the nasties in Blackheart, I might > add) could come up with was the 'Sleeping Beauty" spell??? :-) > > Jenn > > valerya@hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:53:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality No need to explain, James; I would never think that you were trying to quell debate (not the man who thought last week that his posts were so nice, he'd send them twice:-)...But I AM wondering why Nyx is Entropic ONLY because of the undead thing. It was my understanding that undead are not necessarily inherently evil, though almost all are...Or is that just AD&D? Either way, I think someone asked the other day why all "evil" Immortals have to be condidered Entropic. Even if you consider Nyx "evil" because of her goals, I still say she does not fit with Entropy, which wants the destruction of all life. Nyx does not want to destroy life but to change it (we'll just ignore the fact that you have to DIE to get that way:). Undead are simply another form of life (unlife??). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:12:55 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > "evil" Immortals have to be condidered Entropic. Even if you consider > Nyx "evil" because of her goals, I still say she does not fit with > Entropy, which wants the destruction of all life. Nyx does not want to > destroy life but to change it (we'll just ignore the fact that you have > to DIE to get that way:). Undead are simply another form of life > (unlife??). > Well, here would be the argument, IMO: Nyx wants to create a world of darkness (no, not *that* WoD; I mearly mean a world without light), and a world where the (un)dead dominate. A world devoid of life. From Nyx perspective undead are simply another form of life, as you put it, and a better form at that. However, she's wrong*: undead are beings of "negative energy" and trying to create a universe dominated by them (displacing "real" life) is simply bad karma. *Well, perhaps not "wrong" per se. Anyhow, I'm arguing in the alternative here to some extent. At any rate, the *effect* of Nyx's policies would be to destroy life and replace it with unlife, which is probably entropic. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run > it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the Gunpowder? No. No Gunpowder. > have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... Nope. enough Gnomish Genocide going on down in Davania. Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run > it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the Gunpowder? No. No Gunpowder. > have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... Nope. enough Gnomish Genocide going on down in Davania. Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:36:01 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > (or good, for that matter) use of their technology, humans can. That may > be why in PC2, it says only a few nagpa can learn fantasy physics, and > no one but gnomes can learn machine building. Oh.. In which case you'll hate the Almanac entries for AY 2020 ;) But Fantasy Physics, IMO can be learned by anyone. It's the Meddling Racial Skill that only Gnomes have. That gives them an advantage. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:37:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Francis Larivière Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Psionicists Order Perhaps there is some hidden society of super-powerful > psionicists (a la Dark Sun's Order), but unlike the Order, any > psionicist is fair game. They live in some hideously remote monastery, > and devote themselves to keeping Mystara "pure." They could actually be > mages or clerics; divination would be particuarly useful for them. I like this idea. Being a Dark Sun player since the beginning of the setting, I like having some powerfull psionicists around. This Order would probly be made mostly of humain however, since only humain can achieve high levels as a psionicist (unlike Dark Sun were all race have no level limits in the psionic class). Francis. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #633 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 634 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Aleena the Wanton Hussy Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Psionicists Order [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] ZugZul Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:39:58 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Hi guys. I've been quite silent lately, partially because there has been so much activity on here that I've had to spend most of the time reading mail, rather than writing, and partially because I've been trying to get some school work done, and have a social life aswell (!) Anyway, there are some issues being discussed that I would like to adress: Magic: Some people are more strongly connected to the sphere of energy than others. This usually follows bloodlines. (ie genetical). I suggest that a mage can notice magical potential in a child, by looking at him. (an INT roll is required) Does Magic come from within or without? Magic is powered by the Sphere of Energy. It exists around us and inside us. But will is a key term. Not only do you have to have the affinity for magic. Being able to sense the magical enegry fields. You also need the will to force those enegries under your control. And you need the knowledge to perform the rituals required. Psionics. I don't think psionics is a bad idea. Psionics should be tied to special cultures, so it won't spread to cultures who don't know about psionics already. People tend to keep their secrets secret anyway. As I suggested about a year ago, Psionics is tied to the Sphere of Thought, in the same way as Magic(Sorcery) is connected to the Sphere of Energy. But since Thought to a greater extent exists inside individuals, reaching within yourself is more important in this art. Psionics and game balance. I strongly dislike arguments about psionics being too powerful. Psionics is a good idea. If the game mechanics doesn't suit your campaign, why not change the rules instead? Clerical Magic Clerics do not connect with one of the spheres like mages and psionicists. Rather, the connect their souls with an Immortal. Immortals are manifestations of the spheres. The connection between a cleric and an immortal allows the Cleric to channel the immortals powers though his body. The Immortal can break this connection at any time. Hope this helps? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:42:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > just AD&D? Either way, I think someone asked the other day why all > "evil" Immortals have to be condidered Entropic. Even if you consider > Nyx "evil" because of her goals, I still say she does not fit with > Entropy, which wants the destruction of all life. Nyx does not want to > destroy life but to change it (we'll just ignore the fact that you have > to DIE to get that way:). Undead are simply another form of life > (unlife??). The sphere of Entropy is not soley dedicated to the destruction of the universe. That's Thanatos. Entropy = corruption. Entropy forces matter to change, forces energy to obey conservation laws, makes thinking creatures into drones, and disrupts the flow of time. In other words, Entropy makes life interesting. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:42:31 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 CRlPTONITE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/15/98 5:47:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes: > > << I would still opt for Zugzul = Ixion. Could I convince you? > > 5000 years ago Ixion probably was still a mighty Immortal but not the > ruling hierarch. >> > IIRC, one of the later DA modules talks about Zugzul's mortal life. That goes > againt the historyless Ixion. But his chaotic actions are similar to Ixion's. Another reason. Ixion has been around for a *long* time. I think it is reasonable to assume that he has been a ruling hierarch for more than 5000 years. Remember he was there from the dawn of existance. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:50:57 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > I must say I strongly dislike this theory, even if it is "canon". I find > > it disturbing and highy illogical. > It isn't illogical. Maybe not, but I find it disturbing ;) > > Can you give an exact quite of page referance? I thought the reactor blew > > up because of a (failed) attempt to combine magic and technology. > > Nope. The reactor blew because of the magical nature of mystara. (WoTI, > The Adventure booklet, page 3-5 or somewhere in there) I meant to say _quote_ and not _quite_ ofcourse, but nevermind my bad typing abilities. Anyway, ok. > > In which case we should ignore WotI. IMO. > > Why? We've pretty much gone along with canon in every respect in this > arguement. Now that WoTI has pretty much set us along the correct path, > you wish to deny it? There is no other supplement that deals with the fate > of blackmoor in so many words. It's only been hinted at, but never > explained - except in WoTI. Because it doesnt work with my ideas! :P Okay, I give up... Anyway, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what this "magical nature of Mystara affecting hight technology" means. I mean, what effects does it have, what origins? Also, I still think technology could be developed, just on other premises. Didn't Kavyid suggest something like that? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:54:37 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Aleena the Wanton Hussy On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 Demmero@aol.com wrote: > > Just a quick note to Frank Mentzer about two of his Mystaran > creations--Bargle and Aleena. Both have gone on from their humble beginnings > to become major NPCs in the Karameikos setting. Bargle the Infamous became > Court Mage at Baron von Hendriks' stronghold at Fort Doom before betraying the > baron, and Aleena--well, she's earned a bit of infamy too.... > > In 1993's Poor Wizard's Almanac II, she married the Karameikan adventurer > Dmitri Yurevich. In 1994's Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure boxed set, > however, Aleena appears in "The Sound of Madness" adventure in that set > professing her love for a druid named Bertrak. Apparently she dropped poor > Dmitri quicker than--well, a wedding gift from Bargle! This is interesting. The only way to solve it must be to assume that "the sound of Madness" occurs sometime before AC1011. Ofcourse, Aleena is getting pretty old (by medieval standards) and shouldve married long time ago. Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:02:32 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability > Thank you, Great Khan, really. Friends? :-) > > Jenn > O.k., let us be friends! BTW, I had really not intended to start an enemyship, and you haven't start one neither. Jamuga Khan "The Mighty Khan now proclaims the week of peace and friendship! (And all unwilling will be shot down)" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:55:35 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations > >>< Adam. One question: a Hulean invasion (assumed > successful) would bring ia very different culture > (Turkish/Ottoman influence) into play here; do you > really see it being ultimately compatable, or would > the incompatbility lead to the re-establishment of > the Darokinian state (or a collection of > city-states)?>><< > > Of course there is a big assumption made here, that > Hule is Mystaran Turkey. I read your deduction on > your website (if you haven't already, start thinking > PhD in history. You're really good :) . If indeed > the writers deliberately drew the parallel, Hule is > probably Mystaran Turkey. But it's hard to say > without tracking down one of Hule's creators. Some > Mystaran nations aren't directly molded on a real > world model (Denagoth, Wendar, Ierendi, Alphatia for > the most part (but I did notice the Lamassu figure on > the cover too. It's attributed to the Assyrian > culture rather than the Babylonian culture I > believe), and some others). > To speak for a friend of mine, there are some similarities between Hule and Turkey, but some points are different. Anybody has written an article to prove this theorem (was it Jennifer?), but my friend, being a student of history, has written his own article to this theme. Unfortunately I have lost this article during my last system's crash, but it might be found in the digests. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:58:35 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > See, what I don't understand about all the oD&D mages who can cast > wish is, why don't they all have 18 in all of their scores? There is no > cost, and you have all week to cast all of the wishes you need to go up > to the next number. Of course, most mages are typically spurious of the > "baser" characteristics (ie, anything not Int), and since to cast wish, > they've already got 18 Int, perhaps they're just being arrogant. > Perhaps fear that any Immortal could punish him for arrogance... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:01:43 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > Ok, I'd agree with all of that myself, actually. Thanks, Håvard. groovy :) Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:17:56 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? At 23.03 15/09/98 +0100, Rob wrote: > >>IIRC there was a rule about lower pressure at higher altitude. It should be >>somewhere in CoM. > > >I think its in the PWAs. Right. "Unlike atmospheres in the real universes, Mystara's atmosphere maintains the same pressure from sea level to the Skyshield. The oxygen level drops dramatically with altitude, however. Breathing becomes difficult at 15,000' and higher". Poor Wizard Almanac II, page 4. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:10:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability At 08.58 15/09/98 PDT, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > > See, what I don't understand about all the oD&D mages who can cast >wish is, why don't they all have 18 in all of their scores? There is no >cost, and you have all week to cast all of the wishes you need to go up >to the next number. Of course, most mages are typically spurious of the >"baser" characteristics (ie, anything not Int), and since to cast wish, >they've already got 18 Int, perhaps they're just being arrogant. Simple. They've got 18 Int, so they realize that there're better uses for a Wish than rising all your scores. Don't ask me which uses though, I've not 18 Int :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:12:30 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1998-09-14 12:42:40 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no > writes: > > > Ie, I dont like > > this thing about there being something about mystaras physics that > > interferr with high technology and this makes a mess. If we want something > > restricting technology, we should at least include a theory that makes > > sense and that sounds cool. > > It seems that you are ignoring one very basic difference between our world > and Mystara -- on Mystara, magic of a sort that is impossible by the laws > of real world physics works. Actually, I dont know about that. Okay, theories about a set amount of energy in the universe and stuff like that gets problematic, but there are no laws of physics (laws being a bad term IMO) saying magic can't exist. Ofcourse, magic doesn't obey the same laws, but it is if you like a separate sphere of reality. The world of phyisics and the world of magic coexist > Nevertheless, my own personal opinion is that any item of high technology > that finds its way to Mystara is transformed into an equivalent item that will > work there. Using such items is risky not because the technology does not > work but because magic does -- and these items were most likely designed > to work in a universe that is not much more magical than ours is. IMO, high technology and magic are indistinguishable because they are both increadibly difficult to understand. > One advantage of supposing that Mystaran physics differ in subtle ways from > real world physics is that you cannot use real world history as a guide for > technological development on Mystara -- the Mystarans must figure out > everything from scratch just as people in the real world did. And the answers > that they come up with will combine magic and fantasy physics to create > wondrous new devices -- and perhaps they will eventually create a world > that is more advanced than our own. They have a long way to go, of course, > but I think that it is safe to assume that Mystara will change radically in > the coming centuries even if the draining of magic is slowed or stopped. > Of course, if the magic drain continues, then eventually Glantri will be > utterly destroyed and Mystara will become completely mundane -- and > since such a world would be rather boring, I would rather not see the > draining continue to that point. Okay, maybe this is more reasonable than I thought :) It doesn't look like the magic level of Mystara is going to change any time soon with the altered NoS. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:16:00 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > > > conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run > > it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the > > Gunpowder? No. No Gunpowder. Dont listen to him Jenn. Its possible, just that you're gonna get have this mailinglist as enemies.. Sorry about that Ethan :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:21:21 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Psionicists Order On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Francis Larivière wrote: > I like this idea. Being a Dark Sun player since the beginning of the > setting, I like having some powerfull psionicists around. > > This Order would probly be made mostly of humain however, since > only humain can achieve high levels as a psionicist (unlike Dark Sun were > all race have no level limits in the psionic class). Or maybe things work totally different in Mystara. Maybe the Dwarves developed a special talent for psionics when they were altered by Kagyar? Personally, I dont this there is any culture around being able to develope psionics at an advanced level, except possibly on Skothar. I prefer psionicists being Mystics living in isolated temples in areas like Thothia, Glantri and possibly on the SC. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:25:06 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] ZugZul Is there any more information about this guy? I now know that he was mentioned in the dutchy of ten, that he is a destructive immortal of energy and had a following among the Afridhi. What exactly is known about his mortal life? I think he should be a new immortal. Was he destroyed during the chrisis around blackmoor? Was he partially responsible for the reactor's explosion? Or is he, too still around. Maybe his meddling with the reactor changed him into an immortal of entropy? just thoughts and questions.. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:27:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality We've always been operating under the hypothesis (see Shadow Mastery at my site) that negative energy is STILL energy (like antimatter still is something; some form of substance). Negative energy is not non-exsistence. Ergo, undead, while in opposition to "normal" living beings, still have an existence (to avoid being completely obtuse on this, I'll avoid saying "a life"). Entropy opposes even this much. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:28:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Ethan: you're sending carbon copies to the list. Or are you jealous of James? :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:12:33 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? > Both true and false; true in the sense that modern armies are quite large. Point taken! OTOH my point was that a high tech army invading Mystara would do this with a usual number. This number could easily be around some 100.000 soldiers. Of course, a gateway like "Stargate" would be needed to do so. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:28 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society > If you're a mage, just make sure you marry (rated G) one. The genes > work out beautifully. Besides, what self-respecting power hungry mage is > even going to want children? > Dunno! Can even the black-heartest wizard resist the look of a pair of innocent child's eyes? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:06:27 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? > Someone (forgot who) in the Technomagic discussion said that bullets are > just missile weapon, so what about using a Displacer Cloak. > From the RC description of a Displacer Cloak: "(...) most missile will > automatically miss". > A mage with such a cloak has a high chance of getting into spell range > without being hit... if we consider bullets as standard missiles. > YEEEEEEEESSSSSSS !!!!!!! And now imagine a mingam all equipped with Displacer Cloaks. Modern infantry troops would have no chance, and tanker crews would be shot down when loading ammunition or fuel. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:17:16 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi > That could create some not-so-nice problems for players who go > through the DA series. Most clerics (at least, the players I've seen) > tend to be of Ixion; he's a nice, clean Immortal of Light. In the > modules, the Afidhi is presented as the enemy, which naturally > translates into Zugzul = bad. Hm, we've had a discussion about "good" and "evil" recently. Can we say that Zugzul and his Afridhi were "evil" in an objective look? I don't think so... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:35:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations Yes, I admit, Oh Great and Golden Khan--it was I who spent my time detailing Hule as Turkey, rather than your own glorious realm...:-) If you find that article you're talking about, let me know, okay? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:40:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > > We've always been operating under the hypothesis (see Shadow Mastery at > my site) that negative energy is STILL energy (like antimatter still is > something; some form of substance). Negative energy is not > non-exsistence. > `Well, to some extent, IMO, at least for Mystaran purposes, "negative energy" is probably misnamed: it probably, IMO, should be called "entropic force" or something similar. By and large, the undead could be considered "agents of entropy" (of course, by the same token, any *living* thing is also an "agent of entropy". In one of my earlier screeds on this subject, when I was arguing your side of things, I had a break down of life vs. unlife, arguing that the latter are less "entropic" than the former. Why? Undead [for the most part] don't age, are very durable compaired to life, are immune to disease and the like, etc. Undead kill the living, but the living also kill the living and are subject to more "breakdowns" and "malfunctions" than undead are.) Still, by and large, undead are not a creative force. To that extent, they (and the power/energy that "enlivens" them) are fundimentally entropic. The living, dispite their flaws, are the motive force that entropy contends against. (an inadiquate argument, but the only one I have at lunch time). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #634 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 16 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 635 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Frog Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: The Fall of Ilmaryll] Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs Re: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Frog Jenn said: > >Once again, Nicholas, you read like a novel! (more, more, the Empress >demands it! No? Off with his head!...:-) Ditto! This is a good read - you know, Nicholas, there is a possibility that Frog could be one of the Outer Beings... If you have read my Y'hog article, and related works, you'll know what I mean, but if not I'd be more than happy to post it once more to the MML. Basically, about a year and a half ago I envisioned a degenerate branch of the Carnifex worshipping Beings From Beyond, Those Who Should Not Be. Their time of greatness lasted for about 1000 years or so, but they collapsed long before Blackmoor arose, "and e'en before the men of long-dead Thonia thought to shape simple words from ill-trained mouths." So if you people are interested I wl post once more, or send it privately. Feel free to let me know either way. Geoff Carnifex Loremaster, Keeper of the Sacred Manuscript of Yath-Khe - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:55:35 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style. > > OTOH my point was that a high tech army invading Mystara would do this with > a usual number. This number could easily be around some 100.000 soldiers. > Of course, a gateway like "Stargate" would be needed to do so. > They could probably do so through a wormhole of some kind. Of course *if* they did, they'd face the problem you brought up earlier: logistics. They'd have to keep the wormhole open for awhile (perhaps a long while) so they could bring in supplies, and they'd have to move in support personel (to set up depots, oil drilling & refining, etc; in other words, try to establish a whole infrastructure). Thus, the "weak point" of such an invasion wouldn't be the tank, and how to knock it out via magic, it would be the wormhole. If a small band of adventurers could get to the wormhole and permanently close it before the infrastructure was set up, then Mystara would probably get a new nation (the 100,000 or so dudes from the Tech planet would be sufficient), but wouldn't be overrun (the tech junk would become scrap in short order, perhaps after some very scary moments for many mystaran nations, but then the shoe would be on the other foot: the tech folks would have to learn to adapt to a low-tech environment, not as easy as it sounds), by which point most of the areas they conquered while they still had a large advantage would have broken free, and the Techies would be in an enclave. They better learn Mystaran diplomacy, too, because payback's a B****h. . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:56:40 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society > > Dunno! Can even the black-heartest wizard resist the look of a pair of > innocent child's eyes? > Well the PG to Alph says that "magic-users live longer and have fewer children than thouse who have no magic." (p.14 again). Of course "fewer" is absolutely *not* the same as "none", but IMO it does imply that many avoid the "inconvenience" of child bearing. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:06:39 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: [MYSTARA] - [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: The Fall of Ilmaryll] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: The Fall of Ilmaryll Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:55:16 -0400 The Fall of Ilmaryll: >From a lecture a the University of Wendar: "As I am sure you remember from a previous lecture, the empire of Alphatia was not always so cohesive as it seems today. We have already discussed the politics and events surrounding the fall of the northern realm of Argonath during the Alphatian Suppression Wars, of which one event in particular, the collapse of the realm of Ilmaryll, was crucial to the future consolidation of the Alphatian state. "Now then, as you have no doubt read in your texts, the elven king Illashiye was an industrious ruler, as well as a peaceful one. Not only was he able to claim the northern reaches of the newly-formed kingdom of Shiye Lawr without a fight, circa BC 600, or AY 400; existing records indicate that his reign was one marked with prosperity and progress. Unlike his xenophobic brethren to the south, Illashiye allowed beings of other races to settle within his nation's borders, specifically the humans who had inhabited the region for untold centuries - the Yanifey. In fact, there are surviving fragments of songs sung in the courts of the continent at that time, which praise him as 'Illashiye the Just'. "Since the kingdom of Ilmaryll posed no threat militarily to Alphatia, and ties of kinship with the elves of Shiye Lawr were strong, the growing Alphatian Empire never took an aggressive stance against it. Do not forget that around this time, from BC 600 to BC 400 (AY 400 to AY 600), Shiye Lawr had not yet officially aligned with the Alphatian Empire. Many Alphatian princes and kings had invited King Ardashiye to their courts, in the hopes of wooing him over to their fold, but to no avail. Ardashiye was a very stubborn elf, one who had led his clan, the Shiye, from Brun around BC 800 in search of new lands, and he would not give them up easily once he had them. Though he had settled in the woods of what is now Shiye Lawr with the permission of the Alphatian Emperor at the time, Kerothar II, Ardashiye was very much an independent ruler. For the first few centuries of elvish settlement, relations between the two races were cordial, but guarded. While Kerothar had allowed the elves to settle in the hopes of learning more about this strange race, and ultimately hoping to rule over them, he was nonetheless aware that the Shiye were powerful, with considerable magical resources that could have crippled the nascent Alphatian empire, should he move against them. Incidentally, some say that even today, the Alphatians are trying to fully incorporate Shiye Lawr, for some have observed that the current king of that land, Acroshiye, seems to be very independent and willful, though the truth remains to be seen. "So, in the end, the standard strategy of the imperial family was to be on good terms with the elves, and to subtly try to win them over. This is why the small kingdom of Illmaryl remained unmolested, even though it was known to be sympathetic to the northern kingdom of Argonath, enemy of Alphatia. Of the actual events transpiring in Illmaryll, we know little, for such records as might exist now lie within the borders of Blackheart, and we all know how perilous it would be to go searching there for information. All that is known is that Illmaryll was a peaceful kingdom, whose forests and rivers were of breathtaking beauty, and whose inhabitants were said to be very enlightened and pure. One event, not twenty years before the great flight from Dor-Addon, capital of Illmaryll, is clear. "One day, so the legends say, there came to Illashiye's hall in Dor-Addon an elf of considerable charisma. He was named Atziann, though the courtesans of Dor-Addon called him Atziann of the Night, for all of his clothing was set to be of the deepest black, so dark, in fact, that one bard reportedly claimed that he saw the darkness between the stars deep within their folds. Exaggeration, I assume. In any case, Atziann proved to be a singularly likeable elf, albeit a tragic one. He claimed to be the sole survivor of his clan, and he shared a litany of trials and tribulations spanning more than a century, until he came to Ilmaryll, there to hopefully find a home once more. Illashiye took an instant liking to Atziann, and from then on treated him as a brother, and seldom were they said to be far apart ever afterwards. "As the seasons passed, some members of the court at Dor-Addon noticed a change in disposition in their liege. Where Illashiye was once cheerful and open, he seemed more withdrawn now, and less apt to enjoy the fruits of life as they presented themselves. As Illashiye grew colder, Atziann seemed to glow with even more energy and charisma. More years passed, and Illashiye soon grew into a hardened, bitter king. He began to suspect his own family of plotting against him, so it is said, and frequently he fell into fits of madness, which only Atziann seemed able to cure, through his own quiet counsel. "Even the land suffered from Illashiye's malaise. Where once the trees grew tall and strong, now they were said to wither and die, and those trees that grew in their place were decidedly uglier, with damp, leprous bark and withered leaves. Swamps developed in the lowlands, and, in one year, a deadly plague arose in the lowlands, which, according to existing records kept in Shiye Lawr, decimated the human population of Ilmaryll. Worst of all, tales were spreading quickly of horrible monsters in the deepest woods. The king of Shiye Lawr at the time, Kordarith Aradeyth, saw the increasing chaos and misery along his northern border, and, in a gesture of friendship, reportedly offered to send his own forces into the country to help settle the matter. Illashiye, in a fit of rage, refused the offers, and even went so far as to blame his cousins to the south for the problems, accusing them of deliberately plotting to destroy his kingdom. "The sad events that followed are dutifully recorded in the classic text, 'Shiye-emdal'iith', or 'Saga of the Shiye'. The great work documents the tragic events that followed, from Illashiye's call to arms, with Atziann never far away to offer guidance, to the Battle of Aradeyth, the northernmost settlement in Shiye Lawr, where the massed armies of both kingdoms clashed. Many an elf fell that day, including Kordarith himself, as well as his most trusted companions. Atziann is also presumed to have died that day, as no record is given of anyone ever finding him, dead or alive. Illashiye survived, though he was mortally wounded, and thus he was carried back to Dor-Addon, there to await his final days. "The closing days of Ilmaryll are unknown, though some general events are clear. Illashiye only lived for a week after his return to Dor-Addon, and it is known that this was a horrible time. Tales are told of the horrible wailings heard from Illashiye's quarters, and of his family's unsuccessful attempts to comfort him. On the final night, when most others were asleep, a terrible shriek was heard, echoing throughout the palace. Quickly the guards rushed to Illashiye's chambers, though what they saw no one knows now. Within hours, a great panic spread throughout Dor-Addon, as citizens - human and elf - rushed to pack their most precious belongings and flee. One bard who was present writes: 'A greate Panick was seene amongst the Citizenry, Such thatte unseemly and evill Forces doth stride 'Mongst all Menne and Elfes, be they Wealthie or Poore. They tooke 'pon their Backes all Thynges thatte could be Brought, And in beastlie Cacophonie didst they Goe unto thee Nighte.' "This horrible, yet unexplained flight lasted a day and a night. Afterwards, not a single soul was left within Dor-Addon - all was in darkness, save for the burning of the palace. Dor-Addon was not the only settled region of Ilmaryll to be emptied. Within the next week, the madness that took the capital had spread to the countryside, as elves and humans fled in every direction, driven only by the desire to be away from Ilmaryll. The vast majority of the elves fled south to Shiye Lawr, where they rejoined their brethren in peace - the antagonisms aroused during the war being relaxed in this time of need. The humans found no welcome in Shiye Lawr, and many either fled south into Alphatia, or, along with a small number of elves, westwards to what is now Norwold. Many of the Foresthomes of modern Norwold were in fact founded by these elves. By the first weeks of AY 734, or BC 266 by the Thyatian calendar, Ilmaryll was no more. "As for what remains today of olden Ilmaryll, and Dor-Addon, that answer lies within the Ugly Wood of Blackheart. Rumours abound in that kingdom of a ruined city deep within the forests, and of spectral lights late at night in that region. The greatest mystery is of course Illashiye - what did he see that fateful night that frightened him so, and which caused such panic that an entire kingdom was emptied? What role did Atziann play in Illashiye's downfall, as some historians are beginning to ponder? Perhaps one of you might be lucky enough to plumb those mysteries someday. In any case, that finishes today's lecture. Remember that there is an examination next week, and I shall be paying close attention to getting such things as dates correct. Those of you who did not do so well on their Alphatian Suppression Wars papers should take note! Dismissed!" DM Notes: The fall of Ilmaryll was no accident; in fact, it was accomplished solely through the efforts of Atziann, one of Atzanteotl's avatars. Embittered against much of his race long ago, particularly the surface elves, Atzanteotl saw the rise of a powerful, and potentially prosperous, elven nation on Alphatia as a possible threat to his future plans. Not trusting his servants to accomplish the task of destroying both Shiye Lawr and Ilmaryll, he decided to do it himself. Thus, he entered Illashiye's court as Atziann, and using his charm he quickly became a close friend of the elven king, supplying him with valuable advice, and what seemed to be honest companionship. Over the years, his counsel turned towards other matters, telling Illashiye - who has by now become dependent upon Atziann's advice - that there were enemies all around, and that Ardashiye of Shiye Lawr secretly mocked the young king. This tactic of misinformation and prodding eventually led Illashiye to declare war on his southern neighbour, which ultimately cost him his life. Atzanteotl's corruption also extended to the land itself. Knowing that Ilmaryll was rich in resources, the Immortal knew that any ruler could use the land to his or her advantage to stage a recovery, even after the worst disasters. Thus, he caused the plague which wiped out most of the human farmers, as well as the blight that turned the once lovely forests of this fallen nation into the Ugly Wood of today. So powerful was his spell that the taint remains to this day, blighting all that live within it. With the kingdom faltering, Illashiye was forced to turn to Atziann even more for guidance, bringing him fully under the evil Immortal's control. Unfortunately for Atzanteotl, the Battle of Aradeyth was not sufficient to break the centuries of friendship between the elves of both nations, so no lasting divisions developed within elvish society. What it did accomplish, though, was the final decisive stroke against Ilmaryll, which broke the nation utterly. Beset with natural disasters and a horrible war, the elves of Ilmaryll no longer had the stomach to persevere; it would not take much to force them to abandon their nation. As for the final hours of Ilmaryll, in which Dor-Addon was emptied in terror, that also has the mark of Atzanteotl. On his deathbed, Illashiye saw Atziann come to him (he had vanished during the Battle of Aradeyth), mocking the dying king, and freeing his mind so he could see, just before he died, how his actions in part caused the downfall of Ilmaryll, and how, in his weakness, he allowed Atzanteotl to control him. Realizing that he was partly to blame for the destruction of his nation, Illashiye lost his last grip on sanity, and went mad. As a final insult to the raving elf, Atzanteotl polymorphed Illashiye into a monstrous form - turning his body into that of a black snake, leaving only his head untouched, a final reminder of how he both betrayed his people, and how he served Atzanteotl (one of whose forms is that of a black snake with an elf's head). It was this form in which Illashiye's guards found him, and in their terror they fled, spreading the word about what happened. Believing that the Immortals had punished them for their actions, the people of Dor-Addon fled, and the palace was burnt down in the process. - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:14:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics >But then again, some of the worst fighting can be family fighting (Lion in >Winter?) I don't have my Kar. Gaz. info with me, but are they really all that >sickly sweet? Remember, this is the same gene pool that produced the Black >Baron . . . Well, let's look at the Royal Family. King Stefan is as close to being a paladin as one can get without being one. He is noble in every sense of the word, and strives to improve the lot of his subjects as much as he can. For those who disagree with this basic description, your opinions are noted and properly filed. Queen Olivia isn't quite the paragon her husband strives to be. She has a spy network that would impress a Thyatian senator (not surprising, since she is from the Promethian family in Thyatis). Lord Cornel Osteric, the Thyatian ambassador, describes her as such: "Charming, beautiful, and gracious. Remind me never to cross her." She doesn't agree with the King on the matter of succession, but she does love her family very much. She has the skills of a high-level thief, and keeps a quiet eye on everything that goes on in court. Princess Adriana is the pride of her father, and a disappointment/irritation to her mother. Adriana is the official heir to the throne, which has never pleased the Queen. She is a tough woman, having spent several years disguised as a soldier in Kerendas while Sheared. She doesn't get along with her mother much at all, and sometimes interferes with the Queen's courtly machinations. Lord Devon Hyraksos, the Prince Consort, is the son of the late Admiral Lucius Hyraksos, and has an enemy in Baron Desmond Kelvin (who wanted Adriana for himself as well as the throne of Karameikos). He spends a lot of time hunting pirates off the Karamekian coast. He isn't a power-seeker, and never had ambitions of being king. However, he's not exactly upset that he will one day rule the kingdom alongside Adriana. Prince Justin is the second child, and the eldest son. He's the quietest member of the family, and the smartest. He tends to remain in the background, appearing as a minor court functionary to most people. He doesn't draw attention to his royal blood, and hates politics. He does like trade and commerce, though, and has connections in the merchants' guilds. Prince Valen is the youngest, and the most annoying. He spends most of his time getting into trouble. Like his mother, he is a thief, but more of the swashbuckling variety. He is smart, but tends to run headlong into disaster after disaster. He is his mother's favorite child, and is pretty much a spoiled brat despite being 26 years old. Lord Alexius Korrigan is the Seneschal of the Royal Estate, and Stefan's (and Ludwig's) cousin. He is good natured, and gets along better with the Traladarans than any other member of the Royal Family. Finally, there's Ludwig. He is scum. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:23:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Well, I'm just playing devil's advocate. i certainly don't want gunpowder/guns and stuff to poliferate. Heck, I about died when I saw that the SC set had them. I can think of so many other uses for so diverse a land than "gunfight at the Ok Corral." So don't hate me, guys! Does this mean we have to kill off the little buggers?... :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:04:15 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Very nice! Magic comes from energy...what more need be said? Or perhaps, magic comes from the spheres in general...whether matter, entropy, energy... This explains both clerical and magical...and perhaps even mystic... I have some more thoughts but I need to sort them out... At 07:39 PM 9/16/98 +0200, you wrote: >Hi guys. >I've been quite silent lately, partially because there has been so much >activity on here that I've had to spend most of the time reading mail, >rather than writing, and partially because I've been trying to get some >school work done, and have a social life aswell (!) > >Anyway, there are some issues being discussed that I would like to adress: > >Magic: Some people are more strongly connected to the sphere of energy >than others. This usually follows bloodlines. (ie genetical). I suggest >that a mage can notice magical potential in a child, by looking at him. >(an INT roll is required) > >Does Magic come from within or without? >Magic is powered by the Sphere of Energy. It exists around us and inside >us. But will is a key term. Not only do you have to have the affinity for >magic. Being able to sense the magical enegry fields. You also need the >will to force those enegries under your control. And you need the >knowledge to perform the rituals required. > >Psionics. >I don't think psionics is a bad idea. Psionics should be tied to special >cultures, so it won't spread to cultures who don't know about psionics >already. People tend to keep their secrets secret anyway. As I suggested >about a year ago, Psionics is tied to the Sphere of Thought, in the same >way as Magic(Sorcery) is connected to the Sphere of Energy. But since >Thought to a greater extent exists inside individuals, reaching within >yourself is more important in this art. > >Psionics and game balance. >I strongly dislike arguments about psionics being too powerful. Psionics >is a good idea. If the game mechanics doesn't suit your campaign, why not >change the rules instead? > >Clerical Magic >Clerics do not connect with one of the spheres like mages and psionicists. >Rather, the connect their souls with an Immortal. Immortals are >manifestations of the spheres. The connection between a cleric and an >immortal allows the Cleric to channel the immortals powers though his >body. The Immortal can break this connection at any time. > > >Hope this helps? >Håvard > >*** > >Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) >http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc > >"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas >Wambaugh, Picket Fences. > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:54:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes > > Does this mean we have to kill off the little buggers?... > > :-) > First the Hin, please. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:54:31 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > Dont listen to him Jenn. Its possible, just that you're gonna get have > this mailinglist as enemies.. > > Sorry about that Ethan :) LOL No problem, Havard, my archrival of technology ;) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:55:29 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > Ethan: you're sending carbon copies to the list. Or are you jealous of > James? :-) humm? Am I posting doubles? Doh. (Smacks the UNIX box) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:04:35 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs At 11:54 AM 9/16/98 +0100, you wrote: >However - i think that to actually be a psionicist (in a addition to having >some rather tight ability score restrictions) there must be some sort of >genetic thing here as well. More so than magic, the concept of psionics >being the next evolutionary phase is a common one (Homo superior as opposed >to Homo sapiens :). I would say that the Red Curse has had an effect on a >tiny percentage of those living on the Coast, awakening their sleeping >psionic potential. And I thought the Star Trek/X-Men crossover was bad enough, but the Savage Coast/X-Men? :) It is an interesting idea, but I never liked the idea of gaining power by virtue of one's birth. But I don't think its necessary for another reason. To actually use psionics you need pretty high stats in Int, Wis and Con. There are a few with high Int, those who would be Wizards. With high Wisdom, those who would be Priests. With high Con, those who would be fighters. But its a rare mix I think to naturally find a person who would be suited to becoming a psionicists. So methinks, that if a parent wants his child to become a psionicist, the child would have to go under lots of training to be -eligible- to become a psionicists. And given the actual number of people on the S Coast who actually know anything about the existence of psionics, and given the fact that there are no psionicist schools, thats going to preclude parents preparing pre-teen (say that 3X fast) psionicists. Yes, No? Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:06:26 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest? In a message dated 98-09-15 17:31:49 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: << Someone (forgot who) in the Technomagic discussion said that bullets are just missile weapon, so what about using a Displacer Cloak. From the RC description of a Displacer Cloak: "(...) most missile will automatically miss". A mage with such a cloak has a high chance of getting into spell range without being hit... if we consider bullets as standard missiles. >> the ADnD description makes the first shot miss. subsequent shots are handicapped. this works well against bows and crossbows. this being a result of the delay between shots and the need to aim each one individually. imo a rapid fire assault weapon would negate this. in semiautomatic mode the first shot missing would work. however, in full automatic or three round burst mode the chance of a hit is increased as the potential hit area per round is raised. call it multiple attacks per round. with multiple attacks come different targets. no two shots follow the same line to a target. the recoil is enough to offset the hit pattern. for example- my father was in vietnam. he told me that they trained them to fire three round burst and aim low towards the groin and abdomen. the recoil would cause the muzzle to rise slightly. the second round would hit in the ribs, the third would hit just under the neck. but that type of shot is a luxery. more common shooting involved a side to side motion to offer a great chance of a hit. the sideways motion and the recoil combined to offer a diagonal bullet hit pattern. in the rw an assault rifle's rate of fire is ungodly. for DnD i'd reduce the rof per round or limit weapons to three round bursts. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:06:35 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-15 02:56:59 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >sorry but the .50 cal is a heavy machine gun. it is classed as a dual purpose >mg for both ground and air targets. it filled this duel role from ww2 to >present day. other MGs find an antiaircraft role. most of the modern tanks >with a turret mounted MG use them for airprotection. mainly versus attack >choppers. even the Russians use a derivative of the 50 cal for their tanks. >the russian NSVT 12.7mm mg is classed as an antiaircraft machine gun. btw- the >.50 cal is also 12.7mm. even tho it is completely ineffective against aircraft :) tankers dont normally "look up", because that is the job of other units, like AAA. Whether a flying mage would show up on radar or not is another matter (if something like a human being shows up, than birds would be showing up as well :). It may be a case of too much sophistication, in that radar AAA would be less effective than manually fired stuff.. >> but that is assuming there are mechanized AA vehicles supporting the tank drive. with the original tank vs. mage scenario that was not an option and tank air defense would have to be the responsibility of the tank. you do make mention of a tactic that would benefit the mystarans: the tech forces being too sophisticated. that is an angle to be exploited. the catch is the mystarans recognizing the chinks in the tech and adapting their tactics to take advantage. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:06:41 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? In a message dated 98-09-15 03:08:02 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >well actually the tanks would be facing the foot infantry. elite mystaran >adventurer types would come in after the initial meetings between sword and >.223 cal ammo. one should also remember the gun's equalizing factor. plus >there are the modern forces own elite units such as the Recon Marines, SAS, >Navy SEALs, US Special Forces, and so on. imagine what a US Ranger company or >the 10th Mountain Division could do. and lest we forget the 101st or 82nd >Airborne. But I dont think anyone (not even the SAS!) can compete with adventurers in the Heroism factor. The SAS may have been sent to Her Majesty's Training Ground (ie northern ireland) but Our Heroes have battled dragons, killed demons, and Saved the Universe on repeated occasions.>> the same could be said for the SF, SAS, SEALs, etc. they too are hero types. saving the world is one of their tags. of course the general public has but a wee glimpse at what the troops can do and have done. >one advantage a techno army has that has not been offerred is mechanization. a >mechanized division could engage the foot armies of the KW at will and at an >unending pace. On the other hand, modern tactics involve striking at enemy bases, like ammo dumps, command and control, airfields and so forth, a tactic which would be ineffective. >> it depends on the scenario objectives. however, with no enemy airfields, ammo dumps, etc. to have to deal with focus upon ground attacks to support the ground elements would be in effect. this would further hurt the defending mystarans. aircraft are almost unkillable to even the most mighty mages. their high speed and weapons accuracy would keep them out of the reach of mages. even a Blackhawk or Huey would be faster than a flying mage. << Ok, your army may be able to occupy Darokin City, but then what? Mages and adventurer tactics is effectively a form of guerrilla warfare - a very lethal form, unique to a fantasy setting. Something which modern armies have always found very difficult to counter. And the guerrillas of the modern world lack magic, which would be far superior to tech for operations of this type, IMHO. >> that's where your elite small units come into play. antiguerrilla warfare was a priority during vietnam and subsequent campaigns. though they lack magic, they do have tech which the locals don't. and they have it in quantities to equip the troops. the mystarans cannot widely equip its armies with magic. and you yourself said in an earlier post that no army should have troops higher than F3. so with a F2 trained to fight with a M-16 against a F2 carrying a crossbow and sword who do you think is going to win. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:06:55 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-15 09:08:31 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: << At 18.51 13/09/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Except that if their is no open hatch for the mage to cast the spell into, >then it won't work very well, IMO; the spell will just explode on the >outside of the tank. Neither the AD&D nor the D&D Fireball spells have much >barrier-penetrating capacity. The mage can open the hatch from the outside, can't he?>> he could. if all else fails a Knock spell could be used. but the crew just isn't going to sit there and let him. standing on the turret, the mage is vulverable to the command copula mounted .50cal. which can be rotated 360 degrees and fired from within the tank. the M1 has little in the way of cover for any would be mage wishing to "toss a grenade into a hatch". even a mage able to avoid the .50cal, steady himself on a bucking M1 travelling 30+ mph across country, and cast the spell he still has to face the crewman below that hatch who most probably has his sidearm unholstered and readied. at least prepared enough to gain initiative vs. the mage. >> 1 man for 1 tank it's a very good ratio IMO. >> >A guy who can teleport is at least 9th level, and a guy who is 9th level >*and* willing to sacrifice his life, these are somewhat rare "assets". > A 9th level mage should be able to think of a better way, in my opinion. True, but look a this. A 9th level mage can teleport someone else (a low level mage, for example) on top of the tank. The low level mage will disable the external MGs, then he'll open the hatch (using knock, if needed) and finally he'll cast sleep, hold person or something similar on the crew.>> that would work in preserving the higher level mage. but offering a sacrificial low level mage would lessen the chances for a sucessful tank kill. even if the low mage could get access to the interior it is still a melee between three fighters (driver would not factor imo). armed with pistols the fight favors the crew. << On second thought we don't even need a low-level mage. A thief would be enough to disable external weapons, open the hatch and throw inside the tanks a delayed blast fireball "gem" (or a vial with some sort of sleeping gas).>> the thief scenario revolves around the same circumstances as the low lvl mage scenario. and he lacks the unerring magical key to unlock a hatch. btw- the commandersa hatch on a M1 is a two positional hatch which can allow the commander to peek out with a 360 degree field while the hatch protects him from attack. the second stage has the hatch completed open allowing hatch entry. the loaders hatch is more contemporary with its hinge. << If he's unable to open the hatch the thief (or mage) can try to "ride" the cannon barrel and throw the gem inside. Wizard locking the hatch would be nice too. If the crew is trapped inside they'll starve to death sooner or later.>> the barrel spiking via a delayed blast fireball gem may or may not work. the 120mm gun is a smoothbore. explosions follow the path of least resistance. plus i am unsure is the fireblast would exceed the tolerances of the maingun. fireball melts soft metals only. << Another idea. A high-level mage teleports himself on top of the tank, than casts "teleport any object" to move the tank somewhere else (top of a mountain, bottom of the sea, mid-air...). Just one problem: maybe a tank is too heavy or to big.>> that's actually a good premise. size and weight may be too much. the Abrams weighs in at a whopping 125,890lbs. (57,154kg). << These are just a few option. Others may involve summoning elementals, polymorphing the tank into something else...>> the summon elementals are interesting. the image of earth elementals rising up and bashing at a tank is nifty. or maybe a slew of elementals tipping a tank over. the downside would be the risk to mage during summoning and his maintaining control during the chaos of battle. polymorphing may be the most dangerous and yet variable prone spell to use against a tank. depending on the DM and casting mage, the effect could be either a mere nuisance until the spell wears off or just plain weird. << Even a druid can seriously harm a tank, provided we're in the right environnement. He can move near the tank using "pass plant" and then cast "call lighting" or "creeping doom" to hurt either the tank or the crew. You know, magic gives us plenty of opportunities... and I've not considered yet the Glantrian Secret Crafts. >> i am not saying a mage cannot kill a tank. my stance is that it requires heavy duty spells. its like matching a lowlevel mage versus a high HD creature such as a dragon. PCs are only as good as the player controlling them. likewise, the invading tank and crew are only as good as their controller (player or DM). the tank exampled as the M1a2 Abrams is formidable weapon no matter what opponent it is facing. most of the low level spells and even high level spells do not affect it. they were not designed by TSR to take on the attributes of a modern armored fighting vehicle. imo the tank is more flexible and can use its greater range to meet a lowtech threat and any spellcasters that come into play. the range of its weapons tip the scales heavily in favor of the tanks. the tank vs. magic debate was one sided from the onsiet by the use of an Abrams as the target tank. the M1 is designed to survive and operate within the most daunting of theatres of battle. given the war potential of tech nations this. this potential has been hinted at as this thread broadened beyond the mage vs. tank scenario and other aspects of modern rw warfare were brought into play. what i'd most like for the readers to get out of this debate is a realization of just how unbalancing a "M1 could be in King Stefan's court". of and debating the affects of spells on armour is fun too. perhaps some new uses for spells have been inspired. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #635 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, September 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 636 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - [The Fall of Ilmaryll] Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style [MYSTARA] - Psionics & Dwarves RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:07:19 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz? In a message dated 98-09-15 19:11:09 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: << > One disadvantage for a tech army: Logistic as even a high-tech tank needs > fuel and ammunition. > Definately a topic that hasn't been touched upon but should be. The fuel especially, but also spare parts &tc; unless the tech army gets continuous resupply, it'll quickly become just a bunch of interestingly-shaped archeological curiosities. >> i am glad logistics were brought in. logistics was another aspect focused upon regarding NATO AFVs such as the M1. an M1 has an effective combat range stated at between 260-300miles. the turbine engine is rated at 1,800 hours or 12,000 miles between overhauls. this is triple the lifespan of diesel tank engines. when engine overhauls/replacements are needed the componentized nature of the engine allows replacement within an hour.supply is afforded through HEMTT chassis trucks. each is capable of carrying a full ammo compliment for six M1s. another HEMTT chassis based vehicle is used for fuel. fuel capacity for both the Abrams and HIMTT are unknown to me right now. the boon for the M1 is that its turbine can burn either diesel, aviation fuel, or gasoline. this offers it a flexibility unheard of in earlier tank designs. the 20th century US military has always been a stickler for logistical support. assembling and stockpiling supplies has been turned into an artform. for a invasion by said USMC upon mystaran soil logistics would be vital. much like the convoys were during WW2. instead of the cold north atlantic, the logistics department would have to overcome the expanse of time and space. but if they are able to transport and land the USMC then logistics should not be too difficult. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:07:13 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-15 17:32:31 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes: << At 00.28 15/09/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote: > >sorry but the .50 cal is a heavy machine gun. it is classed as a dual purpose >mg for both ground and air targets. Yes, I knew almost all of that, but it was not my point. I try to explain it again, though english doesn't help me... My point was that a MG can easily hit several approaching ground targets, you just need to pivot the MG and to cover a 360° arc, provided you have unhindered LoS all round the MG. OTOH shooting at air targets it's another matter entirely. You have to aim at a single target and you cannot fire at ground troops at the same time. So IMO the .50 cal cannot stop a Mystaran army approaching from both air and ground.>> in the case of the M1a2 there are three mgs. one is mounted coaxially to the main gun and mimics its traverse. another is mounted on a ring around the loaders hatch. this allows the loader roughly 270 degrees of movement. to use the loaders mg the loader must open the hatch and manually handle the mg. the .50cal is mounted to the commanders copula and can be traversed a full 360 degrees and elevated and depressed as needed. sighting this commanders mg is a separate night vision scope with magnifying optics. it is rumored that the commander can slave the .50cal to the tank's gunnery computer system to get range and targeting data. but that is rumor and imo disinformation. imo this may be true with regards to the new M1a2 that has a second sighting system included. anyway the two turret mounted mgs can operate independantly of each other as well as the main gun and coaxial mg. the maingun and coaxial operate along the same traverse and are turret dependant. so up to three separate targets can be engaged simutaniously. though i'd keep the loader within the tank, not only to fill his role but to also keep him from exposing himself when it is unnecessary. <> i don't know if i can agree with that as fighter pilots have to think in both a horizontal as well as vertical axises (distance and altitude). dogfighting, which is sadly becoming a lessened factor, is especially dependant on the 3D picture. the focal computer/missile combat appears to be 2D with its flat images of the aerial battlefield. this is not the case as each blip on a screen is denoted with its altitude. ground based AAA has an advantage as the ground represents a constant factor in targeting the offending aircraft. in the case of the .50cal range, altitude, and target speed work against it. ideally the .50cal works best against enemy attack choppers. attack choppers are the bane of tanks....even more so than enemy tanks. the worse are ground attack aircraft. these jets are out of reach of the .50cal and more specialized vehicles such as the Chapperel, M163, and ADATS are needed. these supplement the air umbrella as air superiority is the duty of the airforce. anyway......against flying mystaran opponents a M1 should fair extremely well. they should at least be able to offer a deterent volley. flying higher could allow a bombardment of stones and such without having them within the effective range of the .50cal. the downside is level of damage and the chances to hit a moving tank who can also shield itself with smoke from either smoke grenade launchers on the turret or smoke generator from the tank's rear. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Diego Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic This has been a facinating debate, and I would like to add a new dimension by asking how the various nations would react, alone or with their allies. Also, which generals would be best able to grasp the differences and react (i.e. which generals would be able to adapt to the different technology and the tactics of modern warfare?) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:54:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [The Fall of Ilmaryll] Geoff--BRAVO!!!!! Great ideas and a great story. Read it, saved it, want to memorize it...can I link to it on your site perchance? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:42:40 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >But Fantasy Physics, IMO can be learned by anyone. It's the Meddling >Racial Skill that only Gnomes have. That gives them an advantage. I think that fantasy physics would be immensly diffcult to understand at an operational level. Take quantum physics, for example. Sure, we have some very good mathematical descriptions of quantum phenomena, but they are "illogical" and seem wrong to the human mind. Quantum mechanics is completely removed from human experience: it's not even possible to imagine what an electron looks like. Now, take fantasy physics. "if it looks like it works, it does." Now that is non-intuitive, especially to humans, who tend to take to an engineering slant. The fundamental laws of fantasy physics, comparable to, say, Newton's Three Laws, 3 Thermodynamics, 3 Photoemission, et c., must be absolutely crazy to allow the premise of fantasy physics. And then applying it... shudder. On a related note, how advanced mathematically do you (or anyone) think the various nations of Mystara are? I imagine fantasy physics would need fantasy calculus, but I'm primarily interested in so called "real" math. Darokin is based on advanced enough nations to have integral and derivative calculus, but I can't recall any mention of any such uses. Since Darokin is so far ahead, and isn't particulary reknown for it's magic, perhaps Darokin is about to enter a "golden age" of science, with Newton, Liebnitz, Joule, Pascal, et c., clones running around. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:51:24 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >Entropy = corruption. Entropy forces matter to change, forces energy to obey conservation laws, makes thinking creatures into drones, and disrupts the flow of time. And it isn't even truly opposed to all spheres; Matter is the only one I feel that would be irreconcilible. The most common example of Energy given is fire (as in the Plane of Fire): entropy demands that over time, other forms of energy change to heat. Indeed, Entropy doesn't decrease the amount of energy at all; it adds to Energy by converting Matter. Thought: What is more chaotic and disruptive than thought? Entropy is chaos, albeit in a different manner. I think that Thought and Entropy have little to do with each other. Finally, Time. Interestingly enough, Entropy is what gives Time its direction. It's rather odd, but then, no one understands what time is. Mathematically, the only equations that care whether time is "forward" or "backwards" are the thermodynamic ones; Entropy guides the arrow of Time. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:55:08 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >Perhaps fear that any Immortal could punish him >for arrogance... Well, if that's so, then I would just zip over to Athas (where there are no gods/Immortals) with a spell, and since the minimun score there is something like 363748, I come back ready to rock "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:58:49 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Ergo, undead, while in opposition to "normal" living >beings, still have an existence (to avoid being completely obtuse on >this, I'll avoid saying "a life"). Entropy opposes even this much. The description of Entropy actually discusses this: ultimately, yes, Entropy opposes its own existence. Thantos eventually wants to commit suicide. Other Entropic Immortals are probably not that fanatic; they just joined for the parties :), but that is Entropy's final end. The only problem is, they have to destroy everything else first. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:11:39 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Either way, I think someone asked the other day why all >"evil" Immortals have to be condidered Entropic. Even if you consider >Nyx "evil" because of her goals, I still say she does not fit with >Entropy, which wants the destruction of all life. Nyx does not want to destroy life but to change it (we'll just ignore the fact that you have to DIE to get that way:). Undead are simply another form of life (unlife??). Yes, that was the Amazing Dr. Bombastic! Only a few authographs, please. I think the simplest explanation is that undeath is Entropy's element. There is no real connection between water and time, aside from a metaphorical one, but the element of Time is water, and water elementals, undines, hydraxi, et c., are all from the Sphere of Time, even though they have no link to time at all (I seem to recall that elementals don't age, so they really don't fit). Just as Energy has efreeti and helions, so does Entropy have vampires and nightshades. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:27:07 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > > That could create some not-so-nice problems for players who go > > through the DA series. Most clerics (at least, the players I've seen) > > tend to be of Ixion; he's a nice, clean Immortal of Light. In the > > modules, the Afidhi is presented as the enemy, which naturally > > translates into Zugzul = bad. > > Hm, we've had a discussion about "good" and "evil" recently. > > Can we say that Zugzul and his Afridhi were "evil" in an objective look? > > I don't think so... Ofcourse we can. From a subjective point of view they were objectively evil... Håvard, awaiting the wrath of the Khan... *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:45:29 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 "Well, come in, come in! Jermyn, it's been positively ages! Ah, so you still wear the old school tie. You see m'boy, Glantri U. still carries a certain...appeal." Thedrick and his guest burst out laughing at their private joke. "Hello sir, I am Mattias, unfortuante heir and confessor to this sorry would-be scholar and adventurer-extraordinaire. If you're an old friend of his, you must undoubtably know the pain I feel constanly at his repetitve stories." Jermyn laughed at Mattias' deadpan delivery "Oh yes, son, oh yes. You should hear him talk about women some time," Jermyn responede, and fell over with laughter. The racous Thedrick joined in, and procrued a wine from the ottoman. "So, you old codger you? I hear you recently managed to extricate yourself from some trouble in Atagahn, or Thanegioth, or so other forsaken wasteland. A piece of advice, my old friend: if you insist on traveling the world over, you can't expect everyone to enjoy practical jokes. Especially if the person in question goes by the title 'Zombie Master'. I'm rather impressed you stil have your head. I suppose they weren't cannibals this time?" "No, no, which I find fortunate, as my ample girth would be an irrestible temptation!" Thedrick chuckled at his own expense. "On the other hand, this Zombie fellow didn't hold a grudge for long. At least, I think not. He was a venerable chap,old, but with an execellant memory. I managed to prime him for some of their myths, and I dare say he entertained me for the entire recuperation." "Oh yes? Anything for your archives?" "Suprisingly, yes. This old fellow, his name was Mwanu, I believe, seeing that I was of the scholastic persuasion and of a passionate imagination, regaled me with one of their myths involving the plateau I had been trying to reach. Legend indicates that a gigantic black pearl can be found there, but I must admit, I never managed to get out of the village. My sinuses acted up, and then there was Mwanu's large sti..., but enough of that. "This story, typically, takes place a long time ago, when gods and heroes walked among men, and is probably nothing more than an exaggerated geneology, but carries the force of an epic nonetheless. Now, at the time of our story, there exists a forbidden temple in the middle of their homeland, which I suspect is the plateau I mentioned. This temple is taboo, and is not the work of the natives. According to their histories, the temple predates their inhabitation on the island, and is the lair of the dreaded "ka'ripu", or kopru, a mythical race of fish-men. This temple supposedly has, or had, a statute in the form of their deity, who had an "unspeakable" name. As Mwanu puts it (and I must apologize for some of it; I'm afraid my skill as a linguist is not as amazing as my appetite), "'This statute is fetish, great power. The clan that have the fetish, they possess the power, they possess the strength. But fetish is no good, fetish bring the evil power, the death power, the nothing power. Fetish bring only madness. Ka'ripu twisted by fetish. "'Long time ago, before Home Wall, before tar pits, ka'ripu human tribe. Ka'ripu small, puny, have only little magic, and no warriors. They hide in deepest jungle, barely survive. "'Mighty King-Lizards meet in a clearing, they leave their dead there: sacred place. Ka'ripu often scavange there, find sharp bones, good for hunting. King-Lizards not always meet there, only since Cloth Men came, even longer ago.' Now, at this point, I was a tad lost. Cloth Men? It took some difficulty, but a wroung out of Mwanu that he meant men who wore ornate robes. He was going to go one, but I wasn't familiar with the 'Cloth Men', and wanted to hear the whole story. He seemed embarrased, and looked at the ground. At length, by playing on the extent of the wounds he had inflicted on me, he finally confessed the 'forbidden' secret. "'Cloth Men came on metal canue, but canue float on air, not water. They come from the Rain-Side Winds,' Northeasterly, as far as I can tell. 'on metal canue. They stop at place where King-Lizards now meet, and metal canue spit out Cloth Men and then spit fetish.' The very same fetish mentioned earlier. 'Some Cloth Men had metal masks. Only some tribe watch Cloth Men. They try to speak to people, but we cannot understand. They touch circle on robe, and we understand. They say they from the Power, and they bring fetish from Power, the Fahrog. They say we need fetish, and we then rule island, and other islands, and more islands. They put fetish on ground, and worship it.' "'From nowhere, King-Lizards come and attack. Much death and blood. Cloth Men hold sticks and red string come from sticks, and cut King-Lizards. Much light and dust thrown by Cloth Men sticks, but too many King-Lizards and small earthshake happen, and all Cloth Men die. Metal canue die too. Later, tribes find one body not ripped up. It Cloth Man with metal mask, and when take off mask, they burn body. It not look well; it look sick. It must be very dead, because it greenish, and eyes split across on oppisite sides head. No one find fetish. "He then went back to the story of the Ka'ripu. 'One day, Ka'piru come to other tribes, say that other tribes must follow them, Ka'piru power. Everyone agreed; they're minds not right. Only some, small tribes not agree, and they attacked. Only some escape into the jungle. Ka'piru say they rule from the taboo temple in plateau, and all tribes work for them. "'Ka'piru savage, hurtful. They kill many people, no reason. They enslave and work, torture tribes, make tribes dig in ground metals. Everything bad. More people escape in jungle, get angry at Ka'piru, make plans. When Ka'piru not around, no one obeys, but scared, Ka'piru have fetish. One day, great hunter, Tuunga, get very angry. He crafty, he careful. He take hunters, get fur. They put fur over bodies, so look like apes, and no one notice. They cross on plateau, and at night go taboo temple. "'They kill many Ka'piru, but take some bodies back. Ka'piru no longer human. they look like fish. Hard backs, sharp fingers, eyes across head, evil mouth, long tail. They no longer Ka'piru. Tuunga say that Ka'piru worshipping fetish when he attack, and he see one Ka'piru use metal to cast weird magic on slave. Ka'piru stick green water in metal in slave, and other metal sticks. Slave not look healthy. Tuunga killed Ka'piru, but some hunters start killing other hunters, and need be killed. Tuunga left fetish in taboo place, because cursed. No want to be like Ka'piru. They sick, not healthy.' "An all together remarkable tale, Thedrick! From the way you say it, it almost seems that native has you convinced!" "Oh, at first I took it to be the myth it sounds like, but I figure every myth must have some preceedent in reality: some factual basis. Before I left, I had the hardy group of adventurers I hired to come with me take a peek up the plateau, no easy task, I'm told. It appears as though there is a temple up there, and none of the natives would even think of entering it. Superstition, but with myths like that, well...." "Huh! They just wanted some reason to spice up their temple, to get visitors. Probably some sort of tourist trap, if you ask me! You're lucky your adventurers got out alive!" "Yes, I am, but not for the reasons you're thinking. It's awfully difficult to survive in a giant lizard infested jungle carrying back a statute of hewn stone." Jermyn stared at Thedrick with his mouth hanging open. Without a word, Thedrick got up, and pulled back a curtain that had previously concealed part of the library. Perched over a rug of crushed velvet, stood a primitive statue. "The carvers undoubtably had religious concerns on their minds, but the quality really is inexcusable. I mean, who would think of worshipping a frog?" "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:01:25 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade >Now then, is there any more information on Tortuga? I'll post another update on Tortuga soon. I'll try and go for a PWA entry, but with more flavor. >What was the fate of Corunglain? IMO, being where it is, it would be among the first cities to feel the might of the raging noid hordes - right out of Warhammer FRP, with rampaging hordes streaming over the walls, spreading death and chaos. Absolutely. I didn't realize it until after this post, but with Tortuga, I've created the WH Chaos Lands in Mystara. I always liked those places, and I'm suprised that there really isn't any place quite like it in canon. the Broken Lands has got the goblinoids, but no fiends that walk around in broad daylight,et c.. I'm going to use skaven, er, wererats/ratweres. >Perhaps Dolos and Nemiston might find themselves under SE "protection" - - >pay tribute to us or leave, sort of thing? Yes, but it is currently unclear what the SE intend to do. Their military is solely trained for enclosed, twisting spaces, like caves or a forest. They know nothing about the kind of tactics they would need, and they know it. Compunded to that, they are unfamiliar with urban warfare, and human psychology. this would be their first overland battle with humans, and they just aren't ready. I'll point out this, and others, in the next enstallment. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:36:48 +0200 From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style >infrastructure was set up, then Mystara would probably get a new nation >(the 100,000 or so dudes from the Tech planet would be sufficient), but hum.. a nation with only mens, they will need 100,000 womans to survive :D - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Antonio Lopez ICQ 14670831 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/1639/index.html - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:40:54 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - Psionics & Dwarves Given that psionics seem to be at least "difficult" in Mystara, it could be possible do devise a scenario in which psionics must be powered with external focus, as per the Crystallite kit in the Dragon article "The even more complete psionicist" by Jon Winter. For example, one could let some dwarven heroes discover that meditating on some special crystal before battle improves their performances (in fact, it is the effect of some psychometabolic wild talent). Let then the dwarves believe that such crystal are similar, or a less powerful variety, of those owned by shadow elves, and you have a great opportunity for a Rockhome-Shadow Elves war. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:46:28 +0200 From: Kristian Kramer Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Go on, go on!! More of that, please. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:10:11 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style > > >infrastructure was set up, then Mystara would probably get a new nation > >(the 100,000 or so dudes from the Tech planet would be sufficient), but > hum.. a nation with only mens, they will need 100,000 womans to survive :D Who said they were all men? Plus, in any case, they'd probably end up "suplimenting" their population some from among conquered folk. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:05:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes I would imagine that some of the older civilizations would have been mathematicallly advanced: Oltecs (Olmecs/Maya), Nithia, etc. not just because of the RW correlation, but because engineering of the level that those civilizations had requires mathematics, at least trigenometry (sp?). Also, wouldn't you think that the magical civilizations might have these skills as well? I don't think that Alphatia could have built all those magnificent buildings without math and engineering; you have to know how to apply those spells (i.e., the building spells) properly in order for them to be useful. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:12:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality A definite possibility, Nicholas. However, I have read many sites that discuss the possibility of Shadow (chaos) as an element (or a quasi-element), in which case undead would not be "elementals" at all, since negative energy opposes Shadow. Of course, that's a FAR cry from canon, but...:-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:30:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Bravo, Nicholas! More (crack! crack!--the sound of the whip on your back as you hunch over your keyboard, endlessly churning out story after story without compensation for the list...:-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > understand at an operational level. Take quantum physics, for example. > Sure, we have some very good mathematical descriptions of quantum > phenomena, but they are "illogical" and seem wrong to the human mind. > Quantum mechanics is completely removed from human experience: it's not > even possible to imagine what an electron looks like. But there are amzing things that one can do with what "illogical" knowlege we have on Quantum Phenomena. (Home Brewed Atoms, for example) The Human Mind can comprehend Just about ANYTHING. > engineering slant. The fundamental laws of fantasy physics, comparable > to, say, Newton's Three Laws, 3 Thermodynamics, 3 Photoemission, et c., > must be absolutely crazy to allow the premise of fantasy physics. And > then applying it... shudder. Not really. Sure, if you wanted to write about Glimreen's Second law: F=mA, except on tuesdays, unless it's raining. And this law is null and void if you want it to be. it would be all well and good, but confusing. But who cares what the mechanics are? It works :) Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:35:10 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > Energy given is fire (as in the Plane of Fire): entropy demands that > over time, other forms of energy change to heat. Indeed, Entropy doesn't > decrease the amount of energy at all; it adds to Energy by converting > Matter. But it also says that perpetual motion is impossible. Thermo law #2. That leads to the heat death of the Multiverse. Period. Entropy destroys energy. > Thought: What is more chaotic and disruptive than thought? Entropy > is chaos, albeit in a different manner. I think that Thought and Entropy > have little to do with each other. Entropy destroys coherent thought. If all thought is random, communication is impossible. > or "backwards" are the thermodynamic ones; Entropy guides the arrow of > Time. Entropy makes that arrow deviate. Entropy has to balance the spheres. That's why it is there. Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #636 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, September 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 637 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - [The Fall of Ilmaryll] [MYSTARA] - Return of Cthulhudrew & Frogs Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes [MYSTARA] - New list Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology & WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology & WotI?) [MYSTARA] - Immortals (was Magical Ability & Alphatian society) Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:40:50 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations > Yes, I admit, Oh Great and Golden Khan--it was I who spent my time > detailing Hule as Turkey, rather than your own glorious realm...:-) > > If you find that article you're talking about, let me know, okay? > My friend was not too happy with it, that's why he wrote this article. I've lost due to the crash, and I don't see my friend very often in these times. Somewhere deep within the digests it has to be but I even cannot remember when I posted this article. :-( Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, the Mighty Khan orders you to search this pile of rubbish. Who will find it will get a supreme war horse as a reward." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:57:13 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Space Invaders, Mystaran Style > hum.. a nation with only mens, they will need 100,000 womans to survive :D > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Most modern armies have women in their ranks... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:55:11 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi > Ofcourse we can. From a subjective point of view they were objectively > evil... > > Håvard, awaiting the wrath of the Khan... > Congratulations, hakomon! This Håvard statue looks really nice! :-) My good Norwegian friend Håvard, I've spoke about a objective look, not a subjective one. From a subjective look the French under Napoleon were evil, and the vikings too. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [The Fall of Ilmaryll] > >Geoff--BRAVO!!!!! Great ideas and a great story. Read it, saved it, >want to memorize it...can I link to it on your site perchance? > Hey, thanks! :-) Glad you enjoyed reading it as much as I did writing it. Yes, feel free to link to it on my site, but unfortunately my next update is still a little on the delayed side of things, so it's not available on my website yet. :-( In the meantime, feel free to host it yourself, if you wish, but when my site is updated it will be available. My URL is http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~mqualizz/mystara Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:17:07 -0700 From: Lee Theisen Subject: [MYSTARA] - Return of Cthulhudrew & Frogs Hey all! Been away for a bit, got a new email addy (temporarily, anyway), and have been reading the discussions about the Froggies with some interest. For anyone who is interested, here's my take on the Froggies: The Cult of the Frog was still very much active following the destruction of their Temple and their leader, St. Stephen Rocklin, though they remained an underground movement. With the advent of technologies stolen and adapated from the Beagle, the Froggies were eventually able to recreate the process of genetic mutation that St. Stephen had used to create the powerful Frog Men- intelligent, warm blooded creatures combining the best attributes of Frogs and Men. Without the conditioning devices St. Stephen and his cronies used, however, the Froggies (the cult) were unable to keep the Frog Men in line, and the Frog Men became increasingly to see that they were in fact the super race that their cult had always envisioned. In short, they no longer had any use for the "merely human" Froggies, and a religious schism erupted, in which most of the human Froggies were destroyed, and the Frog Men began to spread across the nations of Blackmoor and Thonia, and breeding into multiple strains of species. One such offshoot species, a branch of Toad Men, made a mass migration northwest to the mysterious lands of Hyborea, where men lived and practiced strange ways of mysticism far from the lands of "civilized" Blackmoor. The leader of this group of Toad Men was an evil entity named Stodos. He led his people to the lands around the capital of Hyborea, at that time the city of Uzuldaroum, where they warred and traded with the Hyboreans and the other creatures of the region, such as the strange degenerate peoples known as Voormis. In time, Stodos rose to become an Immortal of Entropy, and began to spread his desire to turn the world into an icy wasteland amongst his people. He even managed to turn some Hyborean humans to his worship. Then came the Great Rain of Fire, which destroyed the Kingdom of Blackmoor and set the world to turning on its axis. Ice and cold began to slowly claim the lands of Hyborea as it came ever nearer to becoming the North Pole. The humans were forced to abandon their homeland, and only the Toad Men and certain strains of Beastmen (now beginning to breed true) were able to adapt to the icy conditions of frozen Hyborea. Stodos had seemingly achieved his aims. Elsewhere, the calamity caused by the Great Rain of Fire had devastated the human kingdoms to the south- Blackmoor, notably, and the Empire of Thonia. The Frog Men who survived the cataclysm began to migrate to other parts of the globe. Many remained in relatively tropical or sub-tropical climates, such as the region now known as the Serpent Peninsula, but with their warm blooded physiologies, the Frog Men weren't confined solely to such regions, as real frogs would be. Today, strains of Frog and Toad men can be found nearly anywhere on the globe. The Toad Men in particular have been known to live as far south as the marshy regions to the northwest of the Denagothian plateau, where (under the guidance of their patron Stodos) they war with the humans of the Kingdom of Ghyr. (Notes: I base my Hyborea strongly on the Hyperboria of Clark Ashton Smith's creation. Stodos is roughly equivalent to the "Outer God" Tsathoggua, as I have it. As for the Kingdom of Ghyr, it was first introduced in XL1: Quest for the Heartstone, and I have placed it to the immediate north of the Denagothian plateau. More information on this kingdom is forthcoming. :) Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:49:00 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes At 10.42 16/09/98 -0500, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: >The gnomes of Serraine...They figured out how to use a jet engine to >power their flying city. They fly it all over the world. Couldn't they >conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run >it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? Maybe, but I doubt they'll try to use it for war purpose. They would probably try to build a big gun to send a gnome on orbit around Mystara. > So...do the >different physical properties of Mystara prevent this from happening >(like I proposed a couple of weeks ago, that for instance the RW >ingredients for gunpowder just make something else on Mystara), or do we >have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... No need to exterminate the gnomes, they usually do it themselves... I remember an andventure with a gnome NPC that jumped out from the n-th floor of a tower, pulled the ring of his "Portable Falling Softener" (from AC11)... but the ring broke with predictable results for the poor gnome. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:32:31 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes > > Maybe, but I doubt they'll try to use it for war purpose. > They would probably try to build a big gun to send a gnome on orbit around > Mystara. > Hmmmn. . .most of Mystara would cheer something like that. What, you say? They plan on bringing him back? Oh. Well. Enthusiasm for the idea has abated some. . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:41:27 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: [MYSTARA] - New list Hi folks. I've been a quiet lurker for a while. I'm just posting to announce a new list which I've created. The description, copied from the server, is This list is devoted to the discussion of the out-of-print original Dungeons and Dragons game. It is intended as a forum where hobbyists interested in that game can share their knowledge of the rules of the game, the Known World setting created for the game, and the body of adventure modules published for the game. Individuals interested in discussing the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game or creative efforts to expand upon or interpret the published material are respectfully referred to mystara--@mpgn.com. Note the misspelled name of this list. As you can see from the description, I am interested in a lower-volume, more focused discussion of the stuff I'm primarily interested in. If you wish to participate, send an empty message to dnd-subscribe@egroups.com You also might want to check out the server at http://www.egroups.com since this list is a freebie supported by "discreet" advertising. A word to the wize, read their policies before jumping in. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:12:47 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - History, weddings, geopolitics In a message dated 9/16/98 4:02:19 PM, you wrote: << King Stefan is as close to being a paladin as one can get without being one.>> Yeah, he just stabbed his old friend Thincol in the back . . .very "Paladinian." (Hmm, I'll have to add that one to my spell check dictionary.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:29:02 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-14 20:11:15 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > The Players Guide to Alph has a short but good section on magical > education. IMO, they'd probably go early (right away, rather than age 15), > since being an Alphatian mage isn't only about casting spells, it's about a > certain attitude towards life, and the Alphatians would want to infuse that > into the students as well, which means they'd want to take 'em before their > opinions et al were formed. This discussion suggests a rather interesting source for inspiration -- the Zhodani of the Traveller universe, for whom psionics has the same role that magic does in Alphatian society. The biggest difference that I can see is that the Alphatians would have nothing like the Zhodani "Thought Police" - -- but the testing for talent and general social structure could be lifted intact and used in Alphatia, Glantri, or nearly any other magocracy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:28:59 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society In a message dated 1998-09-14 18:59:51 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > Why on Earth would an existing > aristocrat want to do some research so that there can be more > aristocrats? Power corrupts, and the rulers stop seeking the welfare of > the country, and focus entirely on themselves. But they would still think of the welfare of their offspring -- and if they were able to reach maximum level as wizards but had the misfortune to have nothing but mundaners for children, that would be sufficient incentive for them to research the problem. If Eriadna had not had two wizard children, she would have been very interested in solving this particular problem. Of course, the main effect of this particular interest is that they will not share their findings with others -- their interest is in giving magical talent to their own children, not to the masses. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:28:55 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-14 18:11:35 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > I don't know; Eridanna has (had) a lot of children, including a > power mage-heir (Zandor), and not all of them are mages either. After > all, Mariella is still a normal human: not exactly demonstrative of > parental demands (she's the Mystaran equivalent of the kid who stays at > home with the parents until they're 30; don't mean to offend anyone out > there :)) to go out and "get a job". Eridanna probably dotes on a few of > them. Eriadna is described as having five children. Her two children by the king of Aquas were both wizards, while her three children by Torenal were all mundaners like their father -- apparently something in his genetic background was highly anti-magical. But I have thought of another issue that Alphatians would have to consider -- how much magical alteration can a person undergo and still be the same person? For example, a character who is magically reincarnated would have an entirely different physical form and most likely would be regarded as being a different person for legal purposes. Similarly, a polymorphed character would eventually lose his old personality and assume a new one (although the old personality could be restored along with the original form). So the question I would have is this -- suppose that any attempt to Wish magical talent for an individual with absolutely no magical talent was known to either fail utterly or eliminate the original personality in favor of a new one - -- perhaps that of a demon who was looking for a suitable body? If enough such disasters have been recorded, then few wizards who could cast Wish spells would be willing to cast a Wish of that sort out of fear of the consequences. As near as I can tell, there is one safe way to give magical talent to a mundaner - -- Wish him to become an elf. This change would work only if the mundaner in question was willing to be so transformed, and the physical changes would be sufficient to disinherit him if he is of noble birth, but this method would make a mundaner into a wizard. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:28:58 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology & WotI?) In a message dated 1998-09-14 18:32:01 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > Sure, it > makes it easy to scale mountains, and you don't need to change the > cooking times, but that just compleatly blows away so much chemistry and > thermodynamics (along with weight) that I wouldn't know where to begin > to create a Mystaran barometre. Doesn't Mystaran magic blow away chemistry and thermodynamics as we know them? Certainly the effects of many magical spells would seem to violate many real world scientific laws. As an exercise, maybe we should consider some of the changes that would be required to make magic work in a world that is otherwise like ours. I will start with what would have to be a basic law: 1st Law of Magic: The universe (at least, any portion in which magic works) is subject to quantum fluctuations on a much greater scale than have ever been observed in the real world. These quantum fluctuations transfer energy along a dimension of magic (and in this case I am using the term in its mathematical sense, as it was used in the gold box Immortals' set), thereby allowing that dimension to serve as a massive source of and sink for the energy involved in all magical effects. All apparent violations of the laws of thermodynamics involve energy transfers along the magical dimension. Okay -- what magical effects does this law not cover, and what other laws are required? Are there any known physical laws that must be abolished to explain the occurrences observed on Mystara, rather than merely refined or supplemented? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:42:47 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology & WotI?) On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > are required? Are there any known physical laws that must be abolished > to explain the occurrences observed on Mystara, rather than merely > refined or supplemented? I'd probably want to take the whole side of nuclear pair-production models and toss them too. Quantum Chromodynamics may be odd too, as would cosmology. (since the prime plane is VERY inundated with things like gates and planar travel) In other words. there is no rational scientific explaination for fantasy magic. Why try? :) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:57:59 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortals (was Magical Ability & Alphatian society) In a message dated 1998-09-15 06:50:10 Eastern Daylight Time, herve@hotmail.com writes: > Same as for Immortals: They can reason "Why bother sponsoring new > immortals? They will only steal from my follower base, and get a chunk > of my powerbase which will weaken me". Yet they do sponsor new Imortals. > Why? Because the new immortals are indebted to their supporters. Because > they can call on them if they need to. I would imagine that Immortals must have some sort of "tithe and dole" system set up between Immortals linked by a sponsorship relationship. The net effect would be that each gets a little bit of the energy generated by reverence for the other, with the effect that both can survive as long as either one has followers. Such a relationship would make sense in most cases -- for example, any elf who reveres Ilsundal would also revere his follower Mealiden, even if nobody is a follower of Mealiden alone. Similarly, all followers of Al-Kalim (a cleric of Protius) must hold Protius in some degree of respect. Only if the Immortals involved had some sort of falling out would this relationship be broken. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:45:52 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >A definite possibility, Nicholas. However, I have read many sites that discuss the possibility of Shadow (chaos) as an element (or a >quasi-element), in which case undead would not be "elementals" at all, since negative energy opposes Shadow. Of course, that's a FAR cry from canon, but...:-) Well, as much as I dislike Mystara in AD&D, I will acknowledge that without the Negative Energy Plane, Entropy isn't really consistent with the other spheres. Shadow, on the other hand, is not negative energy, and not Entropy. Of course, of the top of my head, I can't think of any canon oD&D material on Shadow (isn't it a demi-plane in the Ether in AD&D?), but look at it philosophically: Shadow is not just darkness, but light. Without a source of light, shadows cannot be thrown, unlike darkness, which can only exist without light. Another way to think about it is that Entropy and darkness, shadow, night, et c., don't really have anything to do with each other; it's all metaphorical (and I don't mean in the Symbolist, French Decadent, or Western Romantic occult interpretation). Darkness is a simple way of describing visually something that cannot be seen, or felt directly, ie Entropy. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:51:23 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) In a message dated 98-09-16 04:40:19 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes: << Hello Alex, I thought I'd answer your responses- and sort of take part in the rest of the conversations that you're having with other members of the list. Quite interesting actually.>> the more the merrier. hey....this open discussion. besides broadening the responders means that discussion isn't limited to just a couple-three people. >>Imagine a Death Fog spell! No tank will make it out of there... >>Well, they may if the crew promptly about face and go aback the >>way they came, but they aren't going to know what's going on... >Actually being a fog based attack, NBC gear for the tank would >protect the crew. IMO a RW equivalent for the Death Fog spell >would be nerve gas or nuclear fallout. >think of it as the death fog being the equivelent of chemical or >biological gas/weapons. nerve gas. Ahh. According to the book- I'd have to say no on both counts. First off, I believe that the tank would indeed have "Hull points" which means 10 hp. of damage must be done to the vehicle per 1 hull point. Damage only accrues as long as the tank is in the vapors. Thus, it would have to be doing donuts or something in the fog to lose all of its hull points before it either a) cleared the fog, or b) the spell ended.>> i agree as the effect would be what i envison: the tank surving. the thing is that prominent in my mind regarding the tank is a mirror of its rw strengths: immunity to small arms, carries heavy firepower, and can take alot of damage. plus there is the psychological effect armour has upon the oppositions infantry. not to forget the confidence builder tanks offer to associated troops. <> that's the key to a NBC based system. firstly there is a shielding affect to keep the dangerous agents out. then there is a filtration system to scrub the air, not only to remove the possibilities of leaked dangerous agents but also the accumulated carbon dioxide from the breathing of the crew. heck even the engine has a filtration system to clean the inducted air to remove contaminates. the fog coming in through the breech still bothers me. gamewise it would be an excellent "achilles heel" for the tank. in reality i am hesitant. imo the overpressure affect of the NBC system would keep it out at least long enough for a safe reload. the firing would then clear the fog out. the rw example surely has device or coverage to keep the bio/chem agents from entering through the barrel. << Troops out in the fog would be protected very temporarily by the fog before it ate through the rubber on their masks, and even the outfits that they wear. Thinking of it as nerve gas would work but then it needs to be mixed with white phosphorous for the acidic affect.>> temporary protection is the key phrase. and i would say that troops outside of the fog would be the only ones capable of donning their gear. troops hate wearing the suits and masks when it isn't necessary. of course troops riding in a LAV or Bradley would be protected by each vehicles NBC system. >>And how about an Unseen Servant wandering through all the >>traps and setting them off, while the wraithformed and invisible >>mage sneaks in the other side and death spells the camp? >that kind of goes along with the unseen servant spiking the tank >barrel. imo an unseen servant is noncorporal as it is a shapelress >formless mass of force. it is only solid at the point it touches >something. never seen a situation where a pc bumps into an >unseen servant. On this point- I have to ask how often Unseen Servant has played a role in your games? First off, it is capable of lifting and of being destroyed by normal attacks- this would make it a tangible force that I think could indeed set off the traps.>> in my own gaming experience, unseen servants have had a trivial role at best. barkeeps, coat racks, and being used as an extra set of hands are the most common uses from the old days. for official references of unseen servant usage, i looked through a couple of adventures and uncovered some common factors. 1) rooms with unseen servants have a trigger to make them work. 2) there are no references to unseen servant placement prior to said trigger. 3) no mention of discovering unseen servants after searches of a room. the trigger seems the way to discover them. 4)a lack of solidity during the servant doing its ordered task. that tells me that the only substance is the act it is ordered to do. also it is noncorporal before, during, and after the trigger task. the PHB says an unseen servant cannot fight nor can it be killed. only disrupted or dispelled by taking 6 points of damage through breath weapon, area affect spells, etc. you cannot stab it even with an enchanted sword. its a servant spell, at best able to offer involuntary fighting assistance such as moving or removing weapons: simple servile stuff with little or no consequence. <> [snip] well i guess we will have to agree to disagree with that one. i was actually going to respond with a BASIC "if" or "then" program but its been .... dear me 20 years since i toyed with basic. usage was the intended differences as much as the hardware and software (code). usage taking a different phase due to specialization hardware/software for the individual weapon. >the optics range would allow tanks to see the first tank vs. mage >duel and learn from it. seeing a tank killed and the crew bailing >would see these other tanks spraying the mage with fire....or at >least suppression fire. vigilance would be intensified with a shoot >first ask questions later attitude. Adding the "back-up" soldiery and tanks into the scenario would undoubtedly mean that we can bring other mages into the picture as well. The events being watched from afar, and firing on the wizard would both be stopped easily enough by the various Wall spells (immediate thought anyway). This would allow the Mage to slip in, do his deed, and slip out while the "back-up" is working its way through the various barriers established by the other mages.>> the difference in expanding the mages to meet a platoon of four tanks is that the tankers are part of the regular mechanized forces, whereas the mages are the mystaran superweapons. given the power of tanks they do qualify as superweapons especially in mystaran terms. heck....even a regiment of Shermans has the potential to make a Darokin Legion soil its collective pants. << In a tank platoon, these same barriers could cause interruptions in tank crews relaying information to each other as well.>> i cannot think of much that could interrupt the info relay. killing a tank could negate one head of the recon hydra but not the entire sub structure. i see no way that spells could block radio or other signal transmissions that broadcast info to the crews and to their computer systems. >attacking the logistics would be an option. i would say that >extensive scrying and analyzation of those tidbits would be >needed to discover the logistic weaknesses. with a war of >movement like a modern army uses, the defenders may be >decimated before this can be done. nations like Darokin would be >quickly overrun. While populations and "standard" armies would indeed be decimated by a modern army, the Spell-casters and Psionicists would have a "hold-out" ability that makes most guerillas in today's world look like a joke. Then you've got the almost Viet-nam like affect of the Thieves in the cities and the Rangers (and Druids) in the wilderness who, IMO, would make these soldiers look like the VC made our soldiers look in that same war.>> well urban unrest is easy for a techno army to quell. given their own sophistication and the occupied or beseiged "backward" nature, sympathy is diminished. hard targets would be subject to bombardment with little mercy. if a fight is needed, the weaponry of the technos would blast through the defenses and troops could be carried in with the protection of troop carriers. inside, passageways may not allow adequate streetwidth. even so the assault rifles and grenades are ideal for streetfighting while the crossbows, spears and swords of the defenders are outranged and out gunned. the vietnam reference works as i see the urban areas as the base of ops for the conquering technos. the countryside, especially near wildlands, is ripe for guerrilla activities. these partisians would have to be dealt with. i doubt they could turn the tide of war but they would take up time and resources. as for the locals, imo the backwards nonspellcasting folk would probably embrace the tech occupiers if treated fairly. imagine the technos introducing everyday items that make our lives so easy: microwave ovens, airconditioning, food refrigeration, electric lights, plumbing, etc. without the support of locals a guerrilla/partisian force is doomed to failure. >more like comraderie. mutual reliance. sort of like a charmed >person's buddies trying to tell them the real deal. the problem >being that one of the crew has to make a save and then realize >the fellas are charmed. Because of the "enhanced vision" afforded by sights, I'd think that the crews would suffer severe penalties to their saves against charm spells. As for charm spells being broken by rationalization, unity, teamwork, "pimp-slapping", and comraderie. I cannot agree with this one. Charm Person is a spell that will allow a character to be forced to fight his own party for example. Now, in party's that I've played in/GM'd, there were spouses and lovers who victimized each other because of various types of charm.>> i disagree with charm being enhanced through the sights. but would instead suggest gaze attacks. with magnification a mage 1000 yards away could cast the spell with an extended range. i would add that the mage would have to state the intent of the elongated gaze attack as mentioned in other posts on this, i tend to allow ways out of everything. a crewman or party member being charmed has to have a means to break the charm themselves or have his fellows convince them: ie "tough love" or outright slaps to the face. verbal persuation is my favored tactic but hardest to accomplish. if sucessful i usually awarded xps. imo this intercrew/party comraderie is good for the game. it enhances party cohesion an interaction. plus, we had a party abandon a charmed member once. i guess that left a bad taste in my mouth. you really cannot force comraderie but you can promote and influence it. << Tank Crews (or any other "brotherhood") is not going to be any stronger than the party of adventurers. Example, the army goes out in the field a lot. This is said to be one of the best ways to build that "comraderie" and "teamwork" that you talked about above. Adventurers do it *all the time* How much closer are they than the tank crew? Especially if you're talking about 9th+ level characters who've probably saved the world a couple of times.>> i wouldn't say that. the "buddy system" is a legendary aspect of soldiering. a tank crew is the buddy system expanded. add to that the dependancy and teamwork and you have a solid bond. and in a foriegn land....in this case a planet...the inner team reliance should be heightened. as for a PC example, note that since a group of adventurers are used, there would be means to break the charm using either the cleric or mage dispel spell. the other way to negate the charm is for the caster to attack the charmed. or a boost to the save allotted by the caster's side attacking in the same round. hot amid a roaring melee, subsequent attacks upon the tank (and therefore the charmed members of the crew) would do much to break the charm. plus these crewmen are wearing their headphones and tanker gear. not only does this identify them as a team but the headphones are a glaring reminder of what is going on. they also hinder the caster from laying out a false story to the charmed crewman to explain things. in game use i'd add a save bonus to subsequent attempts of the charmed person based upon the efforts of the comrades. >i was going by the high velocity and alien construction and >materials for the SABOT round. the HEAT round is a super heat >weapon and beats the classic fireball and flame strike. On these points- the HEAT round would indeed be much like a Fireball IMO. However, a SABOT round would be much more like a "Quality" weapon. IE. Effectively +1 to hit but as a *non-magical bonus*. Before posting your objection to this- see the notes below where you're talking about material composition of the equipment :-)>> i am glad that we agree on the HEAT round. imo that is the more magical acting of the two due to its hit characteristics (shaped charge). SABOT is iffy. i went with the adamitium line as the two are harder that steel. the 120mm variant gun is intended as a tank killer. its ammo types are limited. whereas the 105mm has a more varied ammo selection that offers better suited ammo for use against infantry. given the proposed USMC role, there would be both 105mm armed M60s as well as 120mm M1A1s. however, iirc there have been drives to introduce a HE and antipersonel 120mm rounds. it may already be in service. the bulk of my modern military texts are dated to the early to mid 90s. >>>>>(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform >>>>>cast upon himself? Basically, they have no means of >>>>>stopping the guy in their entire armory.) >>>>how is a mage using Wraithform going to take out the entire >>>>USMC? that mage cannot attack the troops so is a moot >>>>point. I wouldn't think it a moot point. The guy in Wraithform can gain reconnaissance this way. He could also leave Wraithform to take opportunities that normally would not be afforded a normal person.>> moot in regards to the wraithform mage attacking or becoming an offensive weapon. i have no prob with the spell being used to perform recon. as long as the spell's limitations are taken into account. >>>>since certain weapons like a 40mm grenade launcher >>>>or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as >>>offensive magical spells I'd allow them to harm the Wraithform >>>mage. The HEAT round would have to be compared to the Wraithform spell on the basis of a Fireball. A claymore mine, I do not think is comparable to a spell. Again see below before the rebuttal. I wouldn't allow a HEAT round to be as effective as I would WP, Thermite, or a Flame-thrower however.>> a HEAT round is hotter than a Fireball. WP and thermite are slower burning and would have a lower burn temperature. however, WP/thermite would burn longer and cling to a target like greek fire. flamethrowers too burn at a lower temp. HEAT rounds operate on a shaped charge warhead. this premise focuses the explosive gases into a small focused area. the jet is shortlived, but can vitually instantaneously melt a pencil diameter hole through armour and spray the tanks interior, frying the crew. the claymore is a directional mine that sprays the target area with buckshot. iirc there is a WP/thermite variant too. anyway....the claymore may or may not have a magical affect. against a wraithform spell i'd have the concussion and scattershot overpower the spell. if not harming the caster, it would at least disrupt the spell. << Adamantite is capable of holding a +1 enchantment. It is not inherently +1. The difference is a spell called "Enchant an Item" which the mage has when he turns that +0 High Quality Sword into a +1 Magical sword. The machines are capable of making a +0 High Quality set of ball-bearings, but they've got no way to empower them magically. There's your difference. >> look at it this way. adamantite is this super strong, lightweight alloy. say it is similar to tungsten or depleted uranium. this projectile is propelled by an explosive charge at speeds reaching 5,742 ft/sec. hence you have a devastating impact. its a case of overkill which translates as exceeding the mystaran norm. the motivational force acts as a psuedo magic enchanter. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #637 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, September 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 638 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule (was: Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissim Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs [MYSTARA] - [repost] The lost Hulean article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:52:40 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-16 07:45:18 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >more like comraderie. mutual reliance. sort of like a charmed person's buddies >trying to tell them the real deal. the problem being that one of the crew has >to make a save and then realize the fellas are charmed. > Well, maybe. But if this is combat situation (and it will be), the rest of the crew will probably be too busy peering through sights or barking orders to notice that their buddy has been charmed. And though it may be possible to talk him round (I think restraining him would be necessary, personally) the tank is out of it for several rounds.>> that depends on the basis of the charm. as a team, if one falters the effect is noticable. hence the need for teamwork and mutual reliance. tankers are cross trained in case of a fatality but the crossover does slow down performance. however in a tanks vs. infantry battle (which would be the focal battle, the mages would be hit and run attacks) the tanks mgs would come heavily into play. thus the loader could be used elsewhere. > >no there just isn't a canon reference key to easily compare magic to >tech. > Well, there is. The Tale of the Comet has an entire chapter based around magic vs tech. Each has its advantages, and its disadvantages. But IMHO magic is ultimately superior. Magic can duplicate everything that technology can, and then some.>> well you have an advantage as i do not possess that item. i do have to disagree as to magic being superior to tech. tech is the product of the industrial revolution and mass production. distribution of tech is limited only to supply. whereas magic is limited to but a few. tech is easier to use and learn to use. for each spell tech can accomplish a rough equivelent or exceed it. the biggest discrepancy is probably in medicine as compared to priestly healing magic. tech medicine focuses on detection in stablization of the patient while letting the body repair the real damage. not having TotC i have to guess/assume that the aspects of tech were toned down for game balance. i am not against that. since the discussion is about pure tech vs. magic, i prefer to stick to real examples of tech. this is based upon my impressions of tech examples in City of the Gods and Temple of the Frog. > uh huh... you will be saying that chobham armour prevents ethereal trave >NBC protects the interior through shielding and cleans the interior air. death >fog is an equivelent of bio/chem weapons so yes i'd let the NBC offer some >protection. Death fog does acid damage, to the tank. I wasnt really assuming that the crew would get hit by it.>> acid damage like a chem agent. the factor is the tank surviving the agent and shielding the crew from the chem agents. these the Abrams can do. > > <<(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself? > > Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire > armoury.) > >>> > > > >how is a mage using wraithform going to take out the entire USMC? that mage > >cannot attack the troops so is a moot point. he can position himself where he wants with impunity, volley off a few death spells (each of which wipes out an entire platoon on average) and then wraithforms out again.>> once again i have no prob with wraitform being used for recon. popping in to toss a few offensive spells does. the tactic is sound as it mixes spells to get in and inflict damage. the problem is the assumption that said mage can pop in and out with impunity. each time the mage becomes substantial they are subject to mg fire. this scenario would be highly dependant on individual running the mage and mechanized forces. initiative would play heavily. given that the term platoons has come into play, the area for visual discover and the volume of counterfire increases. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:52:54 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-16 08:10:07 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << > I was actually thinking of the Death Fog turning the tank into a steaming > pool of acidic mucus, but anyway...>> > >think of it as the death fog being the equivelent of chemical or biological >gas/weapons. nerve gas. Well, it does acid damage, which would affect the tank itself. Cumulative acid damage too, the damage a Death Fog can inflict is really quite hideous.>> that depends on the resistance to the fog. cumulative damage would imo begin after the NBC systems failed or began to fail. a way to go might be to allot the tank a couple of rounds of contact without affect. after those rounds, a save is rolled to determine half damage. after after that the NBC system takes the damage. give the NBC separate hps. subsequent fog attacks start the process anew. except any NBC hps lost are already gone. >AirLand2000 is based upon a Soviet Bloc attack. the doctrine is for defensive >maneuvering in small units with these units acting independantly. the goal >being to hold off the attack until reinforcements are assembled for >counterattacks. an invasion force would use the war of movement tactics of >Desert Storm and lest i say Blitzkreig. I was under the impression that AirLand2000 was just a new name for Blitz warfare. It has defensive and offensive characteristics, yes?>> nah...my reference says AL2k is more or less a fighting delaying action to buy time. the aspect i omitted from the basic outline was the plans heavy dependance on air support: aircraft and attack choppers. the time bought allows a counteroffensive. NATO was/is a defensive force. i have an outline of AirLand2k with a couple of example scenarios. it's pretty interesting stuff. frightening too due to the acceptable land losses. >hmm....howabout >grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. >light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. >claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. > *digs out Tale of the Comet* grenade 20' blast radius, 6d6 damage, save vs breath weapon for half magnum cannon (read - M60) 5d4 damage, or 4d10 damage burst fire (hit rolls at -4, but strike all targets within 20' radius area) flame thrower 2d6 damage immediately, further 2d6 next round, 1d6 round after that missile rack, high explosive 12d6 damage in a 40' blast radius (ouch!), save vs breath at -4 for half damage missile rack, incendiary (read - WP) 3d8 damage per round for d6+4 rounds (ouch!), cannot be extinguished nonmagically>> ah....i was right. the tech was toned down. i also noted the attempt to compare the tech to magic. imo that should have been reversed and the magic been evaluated in real world tech terms. <> i'd probably give it AC5 and change the damage scale from hitpoints to hull points. that allows hits with swords and arrows but not any damage. i'd add the mgs at least one coaxially. maingun...i'd ....ah what the heck, toss a mg or two and 12d6 will do. out of curiousity, what do these tanks use for motivation? tracks? aircushion like a hovercraft? << High tech targets are immune to normal weapons. High tech weapons inflict normal damage to high tech targets. Magical weapons inflict 1 point of damage per magical + of weapon. High tech weaponry ignores medieval armour, only the magical + counts for determining armour class.>> i probably wouldn't be using such a broad brush regarding norm. weapons vs. tech weapons. i'd base it on the nature of the attack vs. the nature of the target. a crossbow fired at a tank: paint scuffed. <> i hadn't thought about that. makes sense though. i guess the spell would have to be focused on selected areas to bipass the chobham and conduct itself to sensitive areas. but remember M1s have redundant systems in case one goes out. << electricity based attacks - ditto, a lightning bolt would short out a tank if it fails a save vs lightning. Note that magical lightning isnt impeded by insulators.>> i am still leary of that one. imo the armour would stop or deflect it. shock damage to the electronics would be cut out due to breakers. <> tis a shame cause against a M1 the invisible mage would be less detectable. imo detection would need radar to pick up an invisible attacker. IR may not even work as iirc invisible means invisible even to infravision using elves. i may be wrong about that though. working from memory. << forget - wipes programming language on computerised targets, a failed save causes the targets computers to crash (! - weird)>> definitely different. once again redundant systems. still, that one is interesting. may need to cast it again to get the intended affect. <> i'll agree with that as long as the tank is just killed and the crew can bail. <> hmm....heck why not. but i wouldn't say destroyed....howabout disabled and out of action until repaired? <<(there are many others) Anyway, those are the yardsticks by which i work when dealing with technology... >> this has peeked my interest. thanks rob. i may just have to pick up a copy of TotC. i may also give the Alternity stuff a lookover. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:58:06 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) In a message dated 1998-09-18 01:16:00 Eastern Daylight Time, eand@WPI.EDU writes: > In other words. there is no rational scientific explaination for fantasy > magic. > > Why try? :) The only reason I made the attempt was the strange messages from those who wanted to apply real world scientific laws to a fantasy setting. I figured I would attempt to work things out on that basis and see how well it worked. My personal opinion is that Mystara follows rather rigorous physical and sceintific laws -- but those laws do not necessarily match those of the real world. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:58:05 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-15 09:29:24 Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: > For instance, if power comes from without, one can assume there are > other places of power, like the NoS and the Radiance and ancient altars > and whatnot, that one can draw from. But all, clerics and mystics and > mages, get their power from outside their bodies. > > Personally I prefer some kind of blanket statement, albeit with variety > of detail... Since every known source of magical power requires both a peculiar talent as well as favorable local conditions in order to operate, I would say that both internal and external factors are involved. However, in my own campaign I basically divided supernatural power into four categories based on method (essence or channeling) and primary power source (internal or external). Essence involves manipulation of magical forces by one's own will, while channeling involves submission of one's will to the power. The four types of magic, with appropriate comments from a Glantrian perspective, are as follows: Wizardry: Essence, external source. To Glantrians, this is the ultimate form of magical power and the only one worthy of noblity. Priestcraft: Channeling, external source. To Glantrians, this is the only form of magical power that is immoral, as it requires submission of one's will to the whims of another. Mysticism: Channeling, internal source. Glantrians accept this form of power because it does not require surrender to another -- surrendering to one's "higher self", while a strange concept, does not require the loss of one's free will. Still, it does not grant the raw power of wizardry. Psionics: Essence, internal source. Glantrians familiar with the theory described in this message logically deduced the possibility of psionics. If it existed, they would consider it as being superior to Mysticism but inferior to Wizardry. However, at the time my campaign ended no one with psychic ability had yet demonstrated their powers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:02:37 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >But it also says that perpetual motion is impossible. >Thermo law #2. > >That leads to the heat death of the Multiverse. Period. >Entropy destroys energy. True. But, the 1st Law says that the amount of energy, heat or otherwise, remains the same. Everything about the Sphere of Energy indicates that, in fact, heat is the preferred form of energy: the emphasis placed on the Plane of Fire is considerable. Mystara's multiverse has an advantage in combatting heat death over our's: the multiverse is constantly receiving energy from outside systems; whether it is magic, or an Immortal creating a new star, energy is being pumped into the multiverse. As a result, Mystara is not a closed system, and therefore the laws of thermodynamics do not hold. >Entropy destroys coherent thought. If all thought is random, communication >is impossible. I said chaotic, not random. Chaotic systems exhibit patterns, but cannot be used to predict future results from the pattern. Look at a fractal: it shows the same shape at all levels, but in its mathematical formula, you cannot figure out what will happen at a certain point until you get there. Anyway, no one communicates thoughts; as said, they're chaotic. We translate them into language, and inevitable something is lost in the process. It's why we "know it when we see it", but can't come up with a proper description ("it" is the judicial definiton of pornography in the quote, but "it" can be almost any mid- to high-level thought). I can't remember who said it, but "Poetry is what is lost in the translation." Under an occult/Romantic interpretation of reality, nothing can satisfactorily be described; it must be experienced, and language gets in the way. >Entropy makes that arrow deviate. > >Entropy has to balance the spheres. That's why it is there. I disagree: entropy is a direct result of time. As time increases, so does entropy. Thus, entropy is a function of time. An intersting consequnce of this in game terms may be that the Entropic Immortals were laughably weak long ago, such as in, say, Blackmoor, but now, and as time proceeds on its inexorable path, they grow in power and must one day, in the far future, reign supreme. Of course, as mentioned above, the Laws of Thermodynamics don't apply to the Mystara multiverse. They could, however, apply to Omniverse (the collection of all dimensions, and their constituent multiverses, and thus comprising all realities, all possible realities, all impossible realities, and all other unimaginable states; a tad big, I would say). I don't mean to sound pedantic quoting the Laws of Thermodynamics that you must be sick of by now (Ethan, you are a physics student, right?); I just want to make sure all the philosophy, history, art, and literature majors (I won't make any jokes on knowledge, or lack thereof :)) who may not be familiar with physics get the gist of what I'm saying. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:08:10 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >But there are amzing things that one can do with what "illogical" knowlege >we have on Quantum Phenomena. (Home Brewed Atoms, for example) > >The Human Mind can comprehend Just about ANYTHING. Mathematically, yes, I would say that that is true. However, I hesitate to say that anyone, say perhaps a few psychotic geniuses (are there any other kind?), can "understand" quantum physics the way we "understand" Newtonian mechanics. QED is so counter-intuitive, much like multiple infinities, that it must be expressed in the abstract language of mathematics. Remember, it is impossible to (scientifically?) imagine what an electron looks like >Not really. Sure, if you wanted to write about Glimreen's Second law: > >F=mA, except on tuesdays, unless it's raining. And this law is null and >void if you want it to be. > >it would be all well and good, but confusing. > >But who cares what the mechanics are? It works :) Yes, and its worked well for them so far, much as primitive "science" did for humans. But right now, fantasy physics is compleately empirical; without any theory, the gnomes are, and will continue to be, limited in far they can go with it, limited beyond the actual limits of fantasy physics itself. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:10:02 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - The Heritage of Frog Part 1 >Bravo, Nicholas! More (crack! crack!--the sound of the whip on your back >as you hunch over your keyboard, endlessly churning out story after >story without compensation for the list...:-) Actually, I have sent a bill for remuneration to you. I'm sure you, a loyal literary disciple won't mind a bit, will you? Thanks for the support everyone (except for the following people who I don't like: :)). "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:17:59 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >I would imagine that some of the older civilizations would have been >mathematicallly advanced: Oltecs (Olmecs/Maya), Nithia, etc. not just >because of the RW correlation, but because engineering of the level that >those civilizations had requires mathematics, at least trigenometry >(sp?). Also, wouldn't you think that the magical civilizations might >have these skills as well? I don't think that Alphatia could have built >all those magnificent buildings without math and engineering; you have >to know how to apply those spells (i.e., the building spells) properly >in order for them to be useful. Hmmm, possibly, but I would tend to think not. Virtually all of building mathematics is concerned with gravity, and its unfriendly habit injurious behavior ("It's not the long fall; it's the sudden stop"). When, as a mage, you can ignore gravity and its ignoble aspirations, you have no real interest in seeing how to build said building under the harsh and tyrannical regime of gravity. Historically, for all their supposed skill in math, the Greeks, Egyptians, and Babylonians were little better than empirical geometrists: they discovered geometry through raising a lot of buildings and seeing them fall down (the same thing happened to the early Cathedral builders in the Dark Ages). It takes a fairly sophisticated culture, one capable of supporting elite scientists who can spend all of their time in theory, to develop the more advanced and less practical mathematics. Not to deride practical mathematics, but to acheive heights in either theoretical or practical, one must raise both. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:23:42 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi >My good Norwegian friend Havard, I've spoke about a objective look, not a subjective one. From a subjective look the French under Napoleon were evil, and the vikings too. One problem with using traditonal Western systems of morality to review Mystaran Immortal morality: for better or worse (depending on your religious persuasion, or lack thereof), Western morality is based on the Judeao-Christian (and to a lesser extent in the West, Islamic) religion. This religious system presupposes a) montheism and b) God is perfect, and can do no wrong. Mystara, on the other hand, has got deities in spades, and they (even the best of the "good" ones) are most certainly failable (and being failable, they are more likely to do so than a mortal, given their power). "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:28:08 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-15 11:44:29 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Well, in the OD&D system, their is no real "cost" to using a Wish (the > caster doesn't age or anything), so if a D&D 36th level mage gets up one > morning, memorizes 9 wish spells, and casts them all, it doesn't much > matter if half of them are cast to no effect. > Just another day at the office, and the mage can cast 9 more tommorrow. > 8-) Good point -- that means we have to resort to the explanations on the "unwanted side effects" thread. My favorite is the one that would suggest that a child has a well developed personality by the time it is discovered that he or she has no talent for magic -- and at that point any magic that would grant said talent to the child would destroy the child's original personality. This complication would deter all Alphatians who have the slightest feelings for their children -- and those who are not deterred by natural feelings might be discouraged by various horror stories of demons and other fiends possessing the bodies of those children who are made into receptacles for magical talent. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:38:02 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory I actually find very little that would need to changed with regard to the real laws of physics to use them in Mystara. Thermodynamics carefully states that the laws only apply to a closed system, ie one where no energy is entering or leaving. If magic comes from some source outside the Prime Plane, thermodynamics will hold for all non-magical events, and when magic is involved, the system is no longer closed. This "closed system" loophole holds for a lot of physics. The only question is primarily psycho-biological: how do these mages access and use this power? This is where Mystara and the Real World begin to differ, as it appears as though real humans do not posses quite the same powers as Mystarans do. On the other hand, I am aware of an experiment at Yale (I believe, maybe Duke) that has been going on for years, and it appears as though many people can consciously change the period of the pendulum. Psionics, sure, but if that is possible, perhaps so then is magic. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:40:46 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >But they would still think of the welfare of their offspring -- and if they >were >able to reach maximum level as wizards but had the misfortune to have >nothing but mundaners for children, that would be sufficient incentive for >them to research the problem. If Eriadna had not had two wizard children, >she would have been very interested in solving this particular problem. WARNING! JADED POLITICAL VIEW ALERT! For the ruling class, the primary concern in having children and having them become the ruling class is to perpeptuate both the family name and power, and the social status quo. Alphatian mages, however, can live indefinitely through their magic, removing both above concerns. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:58:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In regard to testing for magical ability, it is obvious that Herath is the one kingdom that would "cheat". They would deliberately set up their tests so that all aranea would pass and all non-aranea would fail. If this is true, then non-aranea mages from Herath would require a VERY unusual background.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:58:06 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-15 12:30:21 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > See, what I don't understand about all the oD&D mages who can cast > wish is, why don't they all have 18 in all of their scores? There is no > cost, and you have all week to cast all of the wishes you need to go up > to the next number. Of course, most mages are typically spurious of the > "baser" characteristics (ie, anything not Int), and since to cast wish, > they've already got 18 Int, perhaps they're just being arrogant. One possibility is the "hidden cost" factor -- whenever a character uses a Wish to increase an ability score by one point, another randomly determined ability score is reduced by a point. If the ability score that is reduced is intelligence -- well, that character just cast his last Wish.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:58:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule (was: Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissim In a message dated 1998-09-15 16:16:27 Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes: > Oh, and re: "Mystaran Allah", I think Al-Kalim fills that role. Strictly speaking, Al-Kalim should correspond to Mohammed, not Allah. Allah (aka "God" to those of us who are not Muslims or Arabs) should have no obvious fantasy counterpart. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:58:09 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs In a message dated 1998-09-15 14:11:24 Eastern Daylight Time, larf01@gel.usherb.ca writes: > Anyone knows more about that? The only place on Mystara where psionics are confirmed as working is the Savage Coast -- and there such abilities seem to be regarded as variant Legacies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:35:48 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - [repost] The lost Hulean article Jamuga, I guess this is what you were looking for. >From: JamugaKhan@aol.com >Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:53:35 EDT >To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM >Subject: [MYSTARA] - Some words on Hule > >A friend of mine, a student of history, found a text about Hule in >the internet and has something to say. Therefore I will publish >his thoughts at this place. Anyhow, the author of the original >text is a MML member. I will not defend it as I'm not the author: > > > >SOME THOUGHTS ON HULE (Hule2.hml) >Jennifer Favia >("Valerya") >valerya@hotmail.com > > >The thoughts about Hule are interesting, but some historical references in the >text are incomplete or wrong. > >1) Janissaries. Janissaries (Hulean cavalry) were an elite corps of young >Christians recruited into the army of the Ottoman Empire under the devshirme >system (recruiting young Christians to Islam) of the late 15th century. >2) Desert Nomad Warriors. The Seljuks (pre-Ottoman Turkish dynasty, 11th-13th >centuries) relied on an army of nomadic warriors until the development of >armies of slaves in the early 12th. > >Ad 1) und 2): The Janissaries (new army) were foot soldiers. They were only a >little part of the ottoman army (ca. 5%-10%) and were founded in late 14th >century. Besides the desvhirme the janissaries recruited prsoners of war in >the beginning (15 th century). >There were no "Desert Nomad Warriors" in the army, because all nomadic warrios >(mameluks) originated from Central Asia. There weapons and lifestyle were >these of the Ethengars. They were even so powerful, that they formed the >government sometimes (Egypt). > >3.) A Highly Intricate Bureaucracy [. Another Seljuk development, one which >lasted into the Ottoman years and the Turkish Republic (modern). >Ad 3: The pre-ottoman Bureaucracy are very low intricate (it was in the 13th >-15th centuries the best and modern administration in Europa). From 16 th >century there was increasing corruption. > >5.) Approximate Size. Hule: 256,000 sq mi; Turkey: 300,000 sq mi. > >Ad 5: The territory of modern Turkey was conquered in 1566 (Siege of Vienna >1529). The main part of conquests was in Europe. Ottoman Empire (late 16th >century): ca. 3,000,000 sp mi (Alphatia and Belessaria). > >6.) Nearly Unchecked Expansion. Within a century of its founding (Osman I, >13th century), the Ottoman Empire comprised territory from the Danube to the >Euphrates, including Greece. In 1453, Mehmed II conquered Constantinople, the >last Byzantine stronghold. (It was Mehmed who founded the Janissaries.). >Suleiman I (16th century) took Iraq, Hungary, and Albania and established >Ottoman naval supremacy in the Mediterranean. > >Ad 6: The janissaries existed already long before Mehmed II. > >7.) Nomenclature. The Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman >Empire which--converted to Christianity and using Greek as its principal >language but Latin for most of its nomenclature --wasn't fully conquered by >the Ottomans until 1453. So we're looking for Thyatian- or Traldar-style >names here how's "Hosadus"? (compare to Heraclius, Photius, Comnenus, Pontus >all BYZANTINE names, not Roman. Furthermore, what of the name "Bozdogan"? He >is, after all, a Hulean version of "Loki." Because of the consonants, my >first thought was perhaps Assyria or Babylonia, but that didn't quite pan out >(see some thoughts on them, below). Then guess what? I found out that the >first people to unify Anatolia (ancient Asiatic Turkey) were the Hittites, an >Indo-European confederation that subdued the kingdoms of the central plateau >about 1750 BCE. Their capital was called BOGAZKOY (Hattusa). Well, that >convinced me. (This also fits with the almost-but-not-quite Central European >feel of many of the town names). > >Ad 7: In the eastern part of the Roman Empire Greece always was the common and >administration language (compare to Canada). The last latine sources from the >eastern part are from 7th century. The Latin names Heraclius ( greek: >Herakles), Photius (greek: Phontios), Pontus (greek: Pontos) can be found in >Latin textes from 3 th century BC. BTW, names on "-us" are Latin, names on >"-os" are Greece. > > >I think Hule can be compared with the realm of the Safiva. They invaded in the >15th century from East and Central Anatolia coming the Iran. Their power based >on the order of the Safiva (an order of dervishes; holy man). 1514 they must >leave Anatolia after a defeat by the Ottoman. > >Literatur > >INALCIK, HALIL, The Ottoman Empire: Conquest, Organization ans Economy. London >1978 >KÁLDY-NAGY, GYULA, The First Centuries of the Ottoman Military Organization. >in: Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 31, 1977, S. 147-183 >PALMER, J. A. B., The origin of the janissaries. The John Rylands Library. S. >448-481 >RUNCIMAN, STEVEN, The fall of Constantinople. Cambrigde 1965 >SHAW, STANFORD J., History of the Ottoman empire and modern Turkey, Vol 1, >Empire of the Gazis: The rise and decline of the Ottoman empire, 1280-1808, >Cambridge 1977 > > > > Jamuga Khan (for a friend) > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #638 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, September 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 639 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy. Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] The lost Hulean article [MYSTARA] - Module reprint RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:08:58 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery > Death fog does acid damage, to the tank. I wasnt really assuming that the > crew would get hit by it.>> > >acid damage like a chem agent. the factor is the tank surviving the agent and >shielding the crew from the chem agents. these the Abrams can do. Im not aware of any chemical weapon that has much of an effect on inanimate matter in real life, in any way comparable to a death fog spell. Not only that, but death fog means that the troops may be stuck in there for a long time, so temporary protection is not good enough. >once again i have no prob with wraitform being used for recon. popping in to >toss a few offensive spells does. the tactic is sound as it mixes spells to >get in and inflict damage. the problem is the assumption that said mage can >pop in and out with impunity. each time the mage becomes substantial they are >subject to mg fire. this scenario would be highly dependant on individual >running the mage and mechanized forces. initiative would play heavily. given >that the term platoons has come into play, the area for visual discover and >the volume of counterfire increases. Well, the mage isnt going to pop out of wraithform in full view of a gunner, now. Hes going to be in a position where no one can see him. Note that with a death spell, due to the huge area of effect he doesnt need direct line of sight to the targets - anywhere in the area will do. so the mg gunners would most likely be dead before they even knew what was coming. Given what generally happens when a bad guy pops up (ie, everyone empties the clip into it) something like a projected image spell (or even a phantasmal force) would give the mage time to throw a death spell, and recast wraithform (wraithform incidentally has a casting time of 1, so it is much faster than any weapon, basically speaking a word.). And all it takes is one death spell to neutralise a company of troops. Thing is, is like this Thyatis vs 1000 mages debate a while back. An example was cited of a Thyatian legion occupying a fixed point with 200 mages against them, with a time limit. Well, the legion may get there, but in what shape is it going to be in? Will it be able to do the same thing next week? Modern tactics of manouvre would be irrelevant against mages. Attrition is going to be the thing here, as the Adventurers are effectively self contained combat units, with no logistics, command and control, or so on for tactics of manoevre to strike. At some point the tech guys are going to have to kill a substantial of these mages, and I cant see that happening. Even if the mage gets caught with his pants down in front of the 101st Airbourne, there is always contingency and teleport. It is effectively going to be guerrilla warfare. At least in modern guerrilla warfare there are still some worthwhile targets to go for - here there would be nothing. The tech army could not win, simply because it would be wholly unable to inflict substantial casualties to the enemies that matter, ie the adventurers, but the adventurers are well capable of inflicting substantial damage to the techies. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:29:57 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic >that depends on the resistance to the fog. cumulative damage would imo begin >after the NBC systems failed or began to fail. a way to go might be to allot >the tank a couple of rounds of contact without affect. after those rounds, a >save is rolled to determine half damage. after after that the NBC system takes >the damage. give the NBC separate hps. subsequent fog attacks start the >process anew. except any NBC hps lost are already gone. This vaunted NBC system is actually quite a simple device. Primarily protecting the occupants by an internal overpressure system. It does not protect the exterior in any way, because it doesnt need to. Death fog will however melt the outside - tracks, armour, engine, weapons... and internal overpressure system isnt going to do a thing here. > >AirLand2000 is based upon a Soviet Bloc attack. the doctrine is for > defensive > >maneuvering in small units with these units acting independantly. the goal > >being to hold off the attack until reinforcements are assembled for > >counterattacks. an invasion force would use the war of movement tactics of > >Desert Storm and lest i say Blitzkreig. > I was under the impression that AirLand2000 was just a new name for Blitz > warfare. It has defensive and offensive characteristics, yes?>> > >nah...my reference says AL2k is more or less a fighting delaying action to buy >time. the aspect i omitted from the basic outline was the plans heavy >dependance on air support: aircraft and attack choppers. the time bought >allows a counteroffensive. NATO was/is a defensive force. i have an outline of >AirLand2k with a couple of example scenarios. it's pretty interesting stuff. >frightening too due to the acceptable land losses. Hmm. guess we are reading different stuff here. I got it as, in a nutshell, surrounding his main force with armour, and delivering air, rocket and artillery strikes to his rear areas, keeping up a rapid tempo, the objective being to prevent the enemy from making militarily effective decisions. (ie intense warfare, basically). Whether used defensively or offensively, its all about the paralysis of the enemys command structure, a tactic that would be ineffective against the adventurers. > >hmm....howabout > >grenade- 3d10 in a 30' radius save for half dam. > >light mortar- 5d10 in a 50' radius save for half dam. > >claymore- 5d12 in a 30' long cone 30' wide save for half dam. > > > *digs out Tale of the Comet* > grenade 20' blast radius, 6d6 damage, save vs breath weapon for half > magnum cannon (read - M60) 5d4 damage, or 4d10 damage burst fire (hit rolls > at -4, but strike all targets within 20' radius area) > flame thrower 2d6 damage immediately, further 2d6 next round, 1d6 round > after that > missile rack, high explosive 12d6 damage in a 40' blast radius (ouch!), > save vs breath at -4 for half damage > missile rack, incendiary (read - WP) 3d8 damage per round for d6+4 rounds > (ouch!), cannot be extinguished nonmagically>> > >ah....i was right. the tech was toned down. i also noted the attempt to >compare the tech to magic. imo that should have been reversed and the magic >been evaluated in real world tech terms. well, keep in mind that Joe Marine the 1st level fighter is going to have 10hp. So a 35 point damage fireball isnt just going to kill him, it isnt even going to leave bones. 10d6 is a LOT of damage, something which people forget. A soldier WILL die if hit by this, even if he is in 90% cover. Its just a question as to whether you need a stretcher or a bucket... Thinking about Sabot rounds vs infantry, i guess it would be a save vs death or die. Which is death for troops, but adventurers with their save of 2 are effectively immune to this stuff as well. 10d6 is a lot of damage for the normal man, who is going to make up the bulk of an army. It is however a fleabite to an adventurer - and this is the tech armies downfall. Adventurers are not normal people - they may well shrug off hits from HEAT rounds, because they are Heroes! the entire AD+D system is set up assuming this fact. You shouldnt quadruple the damage that HEAT rounds does (lets make it 5d20!) just because the 15th level fighter can take it. The 15th level fighter should be able to take it! That being said, if you can find a character who could survive the incendiary rocket without any form of magical protections, by hit points alone, I'm Impressed. (average of over 70hp damage, no save. Thats comparable to a meteor swarm spell, full on). > < AC : -4 Movement : 24 Hit point : 80 Weapons : heavy blaster > cannon (12d6 damage to target), magnum cannon, some tanks also have missile > rack or flamethrower.>> > >i'd probably give it AC5 and change the damage scale from hitpoints to hull >points. that allows hits with swords and arrows but not any damage. i'd add >the mgs at least one coaxially. maingun...i'd ....ah what the heck, toss a mg >or two and 12d6 will do. >out of curiousity, what do these tanks use for motivation? tracks? aircushion >like a hovercraft? Tracks on that particular one, i think. ><< High tech targets are immune to normal weapons. High tech weapons inflict > normal damage to high tech targets. Magical weapons inflict 1 point of > damage per magical + of weapon. High tech weaponry ignores medieval armour, > only the magical + counts for determining armour class.>> > >i probably wouldn't be using such a broad brush regarding norm. weapons vs. >tech weapons. i'd base it on the nature of the attack vs. the nature of the >target. a crossbow fired at a tank: paint scuffed. so, yeah. Crossbow = paint scuffed crossbow +1 = 1 point of damage. >heat metal - if cast on electronics, has a slow spells affect on round 1, > shorts out target on round 2>> > >i hadn't thought about that. makes sense though. i guess the spell would have >to be focused on selected areas to bipass the chobham and conduct itself to >sensitive areas. but remember M1s have redundant systems in case one goes out. > ><< electricity based attacks - ditto, a lightning bolt would short out a tank > if it fails a save vs lightning. Note that magical lightning isnt impeded > by insulators.>> > >i am still leary of that one. imo the armour would stop or deflect it. shock >damage to the electronics would be cut out due to breakers. well, i think a lightning bolt would ignore a circuit breaker. It certainly isnt nonmagical electricity in the way it behaves :) It would probably just blast all electronics in the area of effect, its just going to melt insulation and bypass circuit breakers entirely. In tale of the comet, lightning was the Weapon! Armour may well stop it tho. But i think that the 1" penetrated per level would foil rear armour, if not from the front. ><> > >i'll agree with that as long as the tank is just killed and the crew can bail. well, i just read that as assuming that no vehicle can function with a 10x10x10 hole out of it. However, given the size of an M1, i would doubt that the crew would actually be in the area of effect at all. And if they were, i would give them a save vs spell. > <> > >hmm....heck why not. but i wouldn't say destroyed....howabout disabled and out >of action until repaired? fair enough - poor crew tho :) > <<(there are many others) > Anyway, those are the yardsticks by which i work when dealing with > technology... >> > >this has peeked my interest. thanks rob. i may just have to pick up a copy of >TotC. i may also give the Alternity stuff a lookover. it is quite a good adventure. I think that the tech certainly isnt understated tho. There were casualties in that adventure, the first time for many adventures. Eventually tho, when the PCs know what they r up against, they can use magic to search for flaws in techs defences. The interceptors bringing down the flying carpet with volleys of rockets from 2000 yards definitely put a crimp on the PCs day... There is actually a bit in TotC (heh, new acronym!) about converting AD+D spells to the Alternity rules. Knowing nothing about alternity, i didnt actually look at them tho. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:18:17 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) I like the thought of making up magical laws, much like scientific laws but not held down by them... 1) Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. However it can be teleported and polymorphed... 2) Suggestions anyone? Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1998-09-18 01:16:00 Eastern Daylight Time, eand@WPI.EDU > writes: > > > In other words. there is no rational scientific explaination for fantasy > > magic. > > > > Why try? :) > > The only reason I made the attempt was the strange messages from those > who wanted to apply real world scientific laws to a fantasy setting. I > figured > I would attempt to work things out on that basis and see how well it worked. > My personal opinion is that Mystara follows rather rigorous physical and > sceintific laws -- but those laws do not necessarily match those of the real > world. > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:00:15 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) >1) Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. However it can be >teleported and polymorphed... > Most definately not! This as a law would totally cock up the abilities of the Spheres. Since the Immortals use their varying powers dependant on sphere there would be no reason to choose one over another. BTW you do remember that Entropics want to destroy EVERYTHING don`t you? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:10:37 +0200 From: Christian Gotschi Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes How about this: the gnomes have been given the complete physics of mystara book by some immortal but it is so complicated that it makes today's Physics look like kindergarten stuff. i.e. they have the complete theory. Of course no one knows the whole thing, and it always says things like 'see Section XXXX-XXX-XXX page XXXXXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX volume XXXXX-XXXX-XXXX, and that is in the hands of someone else. And he won't give it to you, So instead of building your machine the best way possible, you have to build it using only the information in the parts that you have...... Christian Götschi mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za Developer at Vircom http://www.vircom.co.za > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicholas Hudson [SMTP:dr_bombastic@hotmail.com] > >Not really. Sure, if you wanted to write about Glimreen's Second law: > > > >F=mA, except on tuesdays, unless it's raining. And this law is null and > >void if you want it to be. > > > >it would be all well and good, but confusing. > > > >But who cares what the mechanics are? It works :) > > Yes, and its worked well for them so far, much as primitive > "science" did for humans. But right now, fantasy physics is compleately > empirical; without any theory, the gnomes are, and will continue to be, > limited in far they can go with it, limited beyond the actual limits of > fantasy physics itself. > > "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was > darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen > > Nicholas Hudson > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:12:48 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery I`ve been away for a few days so I`m still catching up, so if this debate is over sorry for the reminder. Here`s how Two 5th level characters take the tank out. Mage `con light` on necklace, cleric `con dark ` on length of string, mage `fly`, mage `invisibility`. mage flies onto tank wearing necklace and holding string, tie string to tank, fly away. Tank is now enveloped in darkness. The grunts inside can`t see through their instruments even if you say that the inside doesn`t go dark. On their own thats it apart from shooting/moving blind or bailing out . in a group just repeat using mor `darkness` or `con dark`. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:25:11 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy. >I think I prefer the idea that Stefan is a mortal identity of Halav.. > This actually works if someone tried to reincarnate a bit of the old halav which would come out as 1st level. BTW it is reincarnate isn`t it I don`t have my WotI with me but I do remember that one of the `immortality` class spells does such. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:58:42 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) >> How could I manifest this genetic ability in game terms? Suggestions? >> >> Jenn >> > >Ouch, that is very simple! > >If the GM (or DM?) decides that a NPC has to be a mage than he has this >trait. If a player wants to play his newly rolled character as a mage than >he has this trait too. > >A really simple solution, without any real rules or even tables... > Problem with this is when you need apprentices if attempting to be a Paragon. A GM call is a bit unfair. IIrc I put up an idea a short while ago about using the spell learn chance from BD&D and best two of three ( math= 2*(int+level)-3 )which gives 8.5% population can be mages if use 3d6. However IIrc this was booed down by the not so mughty kahn (Ah revenge at last. How sweet it is!) <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:31:27 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) >Most definately not! This as a law would totally cock up the abilities >of the Spheres. Since the Immortals use their varying powers dependant >on sphere there would be no reason to choose one over another. BTW you >do remember that Entropics want to destroy EVERYTHING don`t you? maybe the heat death of the universe will do :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:42:43 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > Well, as much as I dislike Mystara in AD&D, I will acknowledge that > without the Negative Energy Plane, Entropy isn't really consistent with > the other spheres. That is why I completely gird from my mind the fact that my beloved Mystara is now an AD&D product. Mystara's Multiverse was much richer than that AD&D junk anyway :) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:49:27 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) > Problem with this is when you need apprentices if attempting to be a > Paragon. A GM call is a bit unfair. IIrc I put up an idea a short while > ago about using the spell learn chance from BD&D and best two of three ( > math= 2*(int+level)-3 )which gives 8.5% population can be mages if use > 3d6. However IIrc this was booed down by the not so mughty kahn (Ah > revenge at last. How sweet it is!) <;-P > Just curious as to why it was booed down? Now, that formula wouldn't apply to Alphatia (since circa 20% of the pop. is spellcasters), so it would have to be "jiggered" for them, but it sounds reasonable for everyone else (non-Alphatian Mystara). At least to me (Now, that doesn't mean that 8.5% of the population of Mystara *IS* mages, it just means, IMO, that 8.5% *can* be mages, if they want to be, and if training is available to them. In lots of places, no one goes around testing all the pesants and beggars, so most nations won't achieve "optimal" results. This also allows folks who like low magic campaigns to insure that training isn't available and/or most people have a mixture of fear and awe towards mages but wouldn't wanna be one [for whatever reason] &tc.) But 8.5% doesn't sound outlandish to me, if the above provisos are accepted. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:59:18 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > I don't mean to sound pedantic quoting the Laws of Thermodynamics > that you must be sick of by now (Ethan, you are a physics student, > right?); I just want to make sure all the philosophy, history, art, and > literature majors (I won't make any jokes on knowledge, or lack thereof > :)) who may not be familiar with physics get the gist of what I'm > saying. I am a Physicist, yes :) But I have to disagree with your interpretation, on the following grounds: a) You cannot possibly traslate advanced real world physics to Mystara b) It has been canon stated that entropy opposes everything. What you may be confused with is the traditional meaning of Entropy, thus the arguement becomes sematic, is entropy that famous Delta-s? No. Entropy is just a name. It could be called "the Sphere of Opposition" Just as easily, but entropy sounds cooler. The Sphere of Entropy tries its best to foul and desecrate all that has been created by the 4 elemental spheres. Entropy causes destruction or undeath, stifles thought, drops the plane of fire to 0 degrees K, and forces time to realize that there is an end. IMO, that is the only way to describe it. Entropy in all its forms opposes everything. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:50:20 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > I would attempt to work things out on that basis and see how well it worked. > My personal opinion is that Mystara follows rather rigorous physical and > sceintific laws -- but those laws do not necessarily match those of the real > world. I wouldn NOT doubt that :) In fact I am under the same inpression. However, trying as a Physicist to discover these laws in a setting where no quantitiative analysis can take place is really silly. Even Quantum mechanics was designed from Quantitative and Qualitative experiments. With Magic we can't have those. we can't be sure even the most irrational explaination can work 100% of the time. That is why I try to stay away from "fundamental" laws of magic. It could be that Magic works because Del x B != 0 because of a particular infuence from the NoS. Or because it comes from a different dimension (though that one it a bit more perposterous, why hasn't that dimension manifested itself here?) So therefore, I assume that the fundamental laws are suspect, and unknowable, much like the quantum theory of gravity. ergo, localized effects, like why technology corrupts on Mystara, and why the NoS controls Magic on Mystara are more easily explainable using Junk Physics, than the actual physical laws (because the implications can never be known) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:02:38 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] The lost Hulean article > Jamuga, I guess this is what you were looking for. You're absolutely right. Prepare now to get your reward: Superb Light War Horse: AC 7; HD 3, MV 240' (80'); #AT 2 hooves + 1 byte; Dam 1d6/1d6/1d4; Save F2; ML 11; AL N. Responds to commands at the rider's Equestrian skill +3. It can also carry out simple tasks such as untying ropes with its mouth, opening gate latches, and fetching any items it can carry in its mouth. Jamuga Khan "The Mighty Khan is very pleased." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:00:07 -0400 From: dlegend@earthlink.net Subject: [MYSTARA] - Module reprint This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDE304.43033560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did TSR/ WotC ever declare which out off print modules they are going to = reprint?=20 dlegend@earthlink.net I'm also selling The Orcs of Thar Gaz and the Shadowelf Gaz, but they = are missing the pull out maps. If you are interested e-mail me. - ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDE304.43033560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Did TSR/ WotC ever declare which out = off print=20 modules they are going to reprint?
 
 
 
dlegend@earthlink.net
I'm also selling The Orcs of Thar = Gaz and the=20 Shadowelf Gaz, but they are missing the pull out maps. If you are = interested=20 e-mail me.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BDE304.43033560-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:11:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Christian Gotschi wrote: > Of course no one knows the whole thing, and it always says things like 'see > Section XXXX-XXX-XXX page XXXXXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX volume XXXXX-XXXX-XXXX, and > that is in the hands of someone else. Well, that in an of itself is such a Gnomish thing to do. But you could probably find the whole collection in the Great Library of Serraine. Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #639 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, September 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 640 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:23:12 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi At 11:23 PM 9/17/98 PDT, you wrote: > >>My good Norwegian friend Havard, I've spoke about a objective look, not >a subjective one. From a subjective look the French under Napoleon were >evil, and the vikings too. > > One problem with using traditonal Western systems of morality to >review Mystaran Immortal morality: for better or worse (depending on >your religious persuasion, or lack thereof), Western morality is based >on the Judeao-Christian (and to a lesser extent in the West, Islamic) >religion. This religious system presupposes a) montheism and b) God is >perfect, and can do no wrong. Mystara, on the other hand, has got >deities in spades, and they (even the best of the "good" ones) are most >certainly failable (and being failable, they are more likely to do so >than a mortal, given their power). > Also, it get tricky punishing your followers when they make grievious errors in your name as supposedly they're the source of your power. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:49:05 -0600 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Mystarans, I just thought I would let everyone know that September 15th was the 3 year anniversery for the MML (yeah, I am a couple days late). I would point out that it is still going strong, but that would be redundant, wouldn't it? Always nice to see that the list is serving its purpose, even after several years. "Dead" world indeed! So, it's a Friday, which means you can gather with family and friends and raise glass of you favorite beverage, alcoholic or not (I'll be raising a draft cider, myself), and celebrate the continuation of tradition! Or not. It's up to you, I guess... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com owner-mystara-l@mpgn.com ICQ #14585470 "You know, not kneeing you in the groin is a constant struggle." MST3K *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:33:32 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) >Hello Alex, >>As far as NBC gear protecting the crew- this is a yes until the Fog >>breached >> the tank by destroying exposed rubber fittings that aid in that >> protection... I don't know how easily that would occur, but I will say that >> opening that breech would do it. Since the fog appears rather suddenly- the >> crew may not have time to button things down though, and if they closed down >> with the fog in the tank... Remember that a very strong wind (greater than >> gust of wind) is required to move the fog, so the air filtering system in >> the tank would not be able to clear it.>> >that's the key to a NBC based system. firstly there is a shielding affect to >keep the dangerous agents out. then there is a filtration system to scrub the >air, not only to remove the possibilities of leaked dangerous agents but also >the accumulated carbon dioxide from the breathing of the crew. heck even the >engine has a filtration system to clean the inducted air to remove >contaminates. This is workable, problem is that the filtration system cleaning the air will not be able to scrub the soldiers clean of the acid that's in everything. It's like trying to use it on a soldier peppered in WP. >the fog coming in through the breech still bothers me. gamewise it would be an >excellent "achilles heel" for the tank. in reality i am hesitant. imo the >overpressure affect of the NBC system would keep it out at least long enough >for a safe reload. the firing would then clear the fog out. the rw example >surely has device or coverage to keep the bio/chem agents from entering >through the barrel. I don't think that NBC agents are kept out while reloading. I think the military relies on the fact that "seepage" is minimal- and that the interior systems will take care of a small amount of leakage without undue danger to the crew. Should Death Fog be centered in the barrel however- this should cause more than enough to get in to severely wound the loader. The firing would clear the fog I'd think. >> Troops out in the fog would be protected very temporarily by the fog before >> it ate through the rubber on their masks, and even the outfits that they >> wear. Thinking of it as nerve gas would work but then it needs to be mixed >> with white phosphorous for the acidic affect. >temporary protection is the key phrase. and i would say that troops outside of >the fog would be the only ones capable of donning their gear. troops hate >wearing the suits and masks when it isn't necessary. of course troops riding >in a LAV or Bradley would be protected by each vehicles NBC system. Non-dispatched troops riding in APC's and LCV's are not a threat until they "dismount" or open gunports for combat. In either case, that's when the death fog gets used on them. >> On this point- I have to ask how often Unseen Servant has played a role in >> your games? First off, it is capable of lifting and of being destroyed by >> normal attacks- this would make it a tangible force that I think could >> indeed set off the traps. >in my own gaming experience, unseen servants have had a trivial role at best. >barkeeps, coat racks, and being used as an extra set of hands are the most >common uses from the old days. >for official references of unseen servant usage, i looked through a couple of >adventures and uncovered some common factors. >1) rooms with unseen servants have a trigger to make them work. This is because they're set up as a permanent feature of the room. >2) there are no references to unseen servant placement prior to said trigger. Because in this case, the trigger is set up as the summoning device. >3) no mention of discovering unseen servants after searches of a room. the >trigger seems the way to discover them. Something that you can't see and that undoubtedly avoids being struck will not be noticed until you "trigger" it. >4)a lack of solidity during the servant doing its ordered task. >that tells me that the only substance is the act it is ordered to do. also it >is noncorporal before, during, and after the trigger task. I haven't noticed any statements in this regard. Trigger task: move all manmade items in "x" area that you are able 6" forward. That would set off all tripwires... Servant-2 (operating within a segment of the other): Push down on all manmade items in "x" area that you are able to. Items should be pushed down at least 4". This just detonated claymore mines (unless they're held or covered), and anti-personnel mines. >the PHB says an unseen servant cannot fight nor can it be killed. only >disrupted or dispelled by taking 6 points of damage through breath weapon, >area affect spells, etc. you cannot stab it even with an enchanted sword. its >a servant spell, at best able to offer involuntary fighting assistance such as >moving or removing weapons: simple servile stuff with little or no >consequence. On this end... It has undoubtedly become a whole lot more useful for taking out traps I think :) >>I had a feeling that you were going to make those points. We are >>disagreeing >> over terminology, not point of view here. Let's take this from the top. >> I'm under the presumption that you are talking about *operating* these >> systems as opposed to *programming* them? If this is the case- usage differs >> from one package to another and general packages would probably be >> proficiencies, but they would work in groups. >> For example, Data-bases, Spreadsheets, Word-processors, Windows would each >> be a group under individual proficiencies for usage. >[snip] >well i guess we will have to agree to disagree with that one. i was actually >going to respond with a BASIC "if" or "then" program but its been .... dear me >20 years since i toyed with basic. usage was the intended differences as much >as the hardware and software (code). usage taking a different phase due to >specialization hardware/software for the individual weapon. I don't see where we're in disagreement? > >the optics range would allow tanks to see the first tank vs. mage > >duel and learn from it. seeing a tank killed and the crew bailing > >would see these other tanks spraying the mage with fire....or at > >least suppression fire. vigilance would be intensified with a shoot > >first ask questions later attitude. > Adding the "back-up" soldiery and tanks into the scenario would undoubtedly > mean that we can bring other mages into the picture as well. The events > being watched from afar, and firing on the wizard would both be stopped > easily enough by the various Wall spells (immediate thought anyway). This > would allow the Mage to slip in, do his deed, and slip out while the > "back-up" is working its way through the various barriers established by the > other mages. >>the difference in expanding the mages to meet a platoon of four tanks is that >>the tankers are part of the regular mechanized forces, whereas the mages are >>the mystaran superweapons. given the power of tanks they do qualify as >>superweapons especially in mystaran terms. heck....even a regiment of Shermans >>has the potential to make a Darokin Legion soil its collective pants. Agreed. >>In a tank platoon, these same barriers could cause interruptions in tank >> crews relaying information to each other as well.>> >i cannot think of much that could interrupt the info relay. killing a tank >could negate one head of the recon hydra but not the entire sub structure. i >see no way that spells could block radio or other signal transmissions that >broadcast info to the crews and to their computer systems. Agreed again, but the crew of tank-a cannot tell tank-b that there is a Mage next to it if the crew of tank-a cannot see the Mage because of an intervening barrier. >>>attacking the logistics would be an option. i would say that >>>extensive >>> scrying and analyzation of those tidbits would be >>>needed to discover the logistic weaknesses. with a war of >>>movement like a modern army uses, the defenders may be >>>decimated before this can be done. nations like Darokin would be >>>quickly overrun. >> While populations and "standard" armies would indeed be decimated by a >> modern army, the Spell-casters and Psionicists would have a "hold-out" >> ability that makes most guerillas in today's world look like a joke. >> Then you've got the almost Viet-nam like affect of the Thieves in the cities >> and the Rangers (and Druids) in the wilderness who, IMO, would make these >> soldiers look like the VC made our soldiers look in that same war. >well urban unrest is easy for a techno army to quell. given their own >sophistication and the occupied or beseiged "backward" nature, sympathy is >diminished. hard targets would be subject to bombardment with little mercy. if >a fight is needed, the weaponry of the technos would blast through the >defenses and troops could be carried in with the protection of troop carriers. "Hard targets" would have fallen within the first 30 seconds of the occupation. (2) hits from a 105 or 120mm gun would make most Mystaran castles little more than burned out shells. Martial Law is a lot harder to maintain in a magical environment as Thieves using a few minor magic items do things that the soldiery finds impossible. In little to no time you've got technology falling from enemy hands into those of the Thieves who distribute this hardware wherever they deem that it does the most good. >inside, passageways may not allow adequate streetwidth. even so the assault >rifles and grenades are ideal for streetfighting while the crossbows, spears >and swords of the defenders are outranged and out gunned. >the vietnam reference works as i see the urban areas as the base of ops for >the conquering technos. This is agreed. >the countryside, especially near wildlands, is ripe >for guerrilla activities. these partisians would have to be dealt with. i >doubt they could turn the tide of war but they would take up time and >resources. That is all that would be necessary for logistics to catch up to the tech army. >as for the locals, imo the backwards nonspellcasting folk would probably >embrace the tech occupiers if treated fairly. imagine the technos introducing >everyday items that make our lives so easy: microwave ovens, airconditioning, >food refrigeration, electric lights, plumbing, etc. without the support of >locals a guerrilla/partisian force is doomed to failure. The problems here are that an army in the field is not going to have all of these conveniences on hand- what little they do, they are not going to give to the locals. An army does not occupy an area and bring a better life to the locals (at least that hasn't happened in RW history)- unless we're talking about on the long-term, then it happens slowly integrating the two cultures- and with a lot of resistance on both sides. In the RW a guerilla force is doomed to failure more often because of a lack of area to manuever and because their lives are not completely independant of communities for some of their survival needs. On Mystara this is not the case. They've got the wide-open non-industrial countryside and wilderness to retreat into and move around in. They can't be kept at bay by simply putting soldiers on patrols as Rangers and Druids have many advantages to by-passing these patrols. In the Mystaran wilderness- the Weather, Animals, Plants, and all other forces of nature will be used against any soldiery that patrols or gives chase to a guerilla band. Druidically, Heat Metal has been brought up with its effect on electronics in a tank. Any idea what this spell would do on a guy wearing a steel-toed boot, ammo clips, and weaponry that is carried? You see the Druid step behind a tree and empty a mag. into the tree in hopes of shooting him through it. Problem- he isn't there. Instead, he just stepped out behind you and stabbed you in the back (or slit your throat). You're walking through the woods when all of the sudden you're in a mess of swarming insects... >i disagree with charm being enhanced through the sights. but would instead >suggest gaze attacks. with magnification a mage 1000 yards away could cast >the spell with an extended range. i would add that the mage would have to >state the intent of the elongated gaze attack I have no problem with this disagreement. Point was that the "enhanced sights" would have a negative affect of some kind here. >as mentioned in other posts on this, i tend to allow ways out of everything. a >crewman or party member being charmed has to have a means to break the charm >themselves or have his fellows convince them: ie "tough love" or outright >slaps to the face. verbal persuation is my favored tactic but hardest to >accomplish. if sucessful i usually awarded xps. imo this intercrew/party >comraderie is good for the game. it enhances party cohesion an interaction. >plus, we had a party abandon a charmed member once. i guess that left a bad >taste in my mouth. you really cannot force comraderie but you can promote and >influence it. The problem with this line of thought is that EVERY enchantment/charm spell in the book has at last one (and the most popular have two) way/s out. Charm Person- There is a saving throw to resist the charm, then there are subsequent saves over time as the mind fights the charm. >> Tank Crews (or any other "brotherhood") is not going to be any stronger >>than >> the party of adventurers. Example, the army goes out in the field a lot. >> This is said to be one of the best ways to build that "comraderie" and >> "teamwork" that you talked about above. Adventurers do it *all the time* How >> much closer are they than the tank crew? Especially if you're talking about >> 9th+ level characters who've probably saved the world a couple of times. >i wouldn't say that. the "buddy system" is a legendary aspect of soldiering. a >tank crew is the buddy system expanded. add to that the dependancy and >teamwork and you have a solid bond. and in a foriegn land....in this case a >planet...the inner team reliance should be heightened. >as for a PC example, note that since a group of adventurers are used, there >would be means to break the charm using either the cleric or mage dispel >spell. The "dispel magic" would be no more available to a party of Fighters and Thieves as it would be to a modern Army. Friendship has little to no bearing on a charm spell. >the other way to negate the charm is for the caster to attack the charmed. This is if the charmed person is aware that the caster attacked to do (or did) harm to the charmed victim. >or >a boost to the save allotted by the caster's side attacking in the same round. Agreed. >hot amid a roaring melee, subsequent attacks upon the tank (and therefore the >charmed members of the crew) would do much to break the charm. If the crew of a tank is charmed, telepathics could be used to get them to exit the tank, or even use it to attack their own allies. There would be no need for subsequent attacks on the tank. >plus these >crewmen are wearing their headphones and tanker gear. not only does this >identify them as a team but the headphones are a glaring reminder of what is >going on. they also hinder the caster from laying out a false story to the >charmed crewman to explain things. The heraldry, armor, and weapons of the adventuring party does the same identification and reminding that the headphones, helmets, and uniforms do for the tanker- nothing. This gear hindering the caster from laying out a false story does not prevent him from acting as if charmed, and does not prevent things like telepathy working. Charmed gunner sees Mage. He's ordered to shoot the mage- he doesn't. >in game use i'd add a save bonus to subsequent attempts of the charmed person >based upon the efforts of the comrades. This is reasonable. >>>i was going by the high velocity and alien construction and >>>materials for the SABOT round. the HEAT round is a super heat >>>weapon and beats the classic fireball and flame strike. >> On these points- the HEAT round would indeed be much like a Fireball IMO. >> However, a SABOT round would be much more like a "Quality" weapon. IE. >> Effectively +1 to hit but as a *non-magical bonus*. >> Before posting your objection to this- see the notes below where you're >> talking about material composition of the equipment :-) >i am glad that we agree on the HEAT round. imo that is the more magical acting >of the two due to its hit characteristics (shaped charge). SABOT is iffy. i >went with the adamitium line as the two are harder that steel. the 120mm >variant gun is intended as a tank killer. its ammo types are limited. whereas >the 105mm has a more varied ammo selection that offers better suited ammo for >use against infantry. given the proposed USMC role, there would be both 105mm >armed M60s as well as 120mm M1A1s. however, iirc there have been drives to >introduce a HE and antipersonel 120mm rounds. it may already be in service. >the bulk of my modern military texts are dated to the early to mid 90s. >>>>(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform >>>>cast upon himself? Basically, they have no means of >>>>stopping the guy in their entire armory.) >>>how is a mage using Wraithform going to take out the entire >>>USMC? that mage cannot attack the troops so is a moot >>>point. >> I wouldn't think it a moot point. The guy in Wraithform can gain >> reconnaissance this way. He could also leave Wraithform to take >> opportunities that normally would not be afforded a normal person. >moot in regards to the wraithform mage attacking or becoming an offensive >weapon. i have no prob with the spell being used to perform recon. as long as >the spell's limitations are taken into account. The spell would also allow for specific key attacks if used correctly as well. >>>since certain weapons like a 40mm grenade launcher >>>or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as >>>offensive magical spells I'd allow them to harm the Wraithform >>>mage. >> The HEAT round would have to be compared to the Wraithform spell on the >> basis of a Fireball. A claymore mine, I do not think is comparable to a >> spell. Again see below before the rebuttal. >> I wouldn't allow a HEAT round to be as effective as I would WP, Thermite, or >> a Flame-thrower however. >a HEAT round is hotter than a Fireball. WP and thermite are slower burning and >would have a lower burn temperature. however, WP/thermite would burn longer >and cling to a target like greek fire. flamethrowers too burn at a lower temp. This is agreed- that is why I said that WP or thermite would be more effective. The HEAT round allows a sv. for 1/2 damage. WP/Thermite is either you have it on you or you don't... >the claymore is a directional mine that sprays the target area with buckshot. >iirc there is a WP/thermite variant too. anyway....the claymore may or may not >have a magical affect. against a wraithform spell i'd have the concussion and >scattershot overpower the spell. if not harming the caster, it would at least >disrupt the spell. A WP/Thermite variant I could see as magical. The mine would not be magical vs. Wraithform IMO though. Also, there is no way for it to "disrupt" the spell as the spell does not require concentration once cast. >> Adamantite is capable of holding a +1 enchantment. It is not inherently +1. >> The difference is a spell called "Enchant an Item" which the mage has when >> he turns that +0 High Quality Sword into a +1 Magical sword. >> The machines are capable of making a +0 High Quality set of ball-bearings, >> but they've got no way to empower them magically. There's your difference. >look at it this way. adamantite is this super strong, lightweight alloy. Just like adamantite, mithril, or meteoric steel. Yes. >say >it is similar to tungsten or depleted uranium. this projectile is propelled by >an explosive charge at speeds reaching 5,742 ft/sec. hence you have a >devastating impact. its a case of overkill which translates as exceeding the >mystaran norm. the motivational force acts as a psuedo magic enchanter. The problem here is that IRL a Ghost requires a magic item to be hit. While a sword enchanted by a Mage (Excaliber for example) would hit that ghost- a solid normal object (no matter the speed it travels) could not. A Vampire- your projectile will pass straight through, while a +1 sword impacts solidly with it. Wraithform is like the ghost above. Remember also that the "explosive charge" has to hit something to explode, thus there is no argument that the explosion itself is magical as it must first impact to do so. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:37:27 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > > Well, as much as I dislike Mystara in AD&D, I will acknowledge that > > without the Negative Energy Plane, Entropy isn't really consistent with > > the other spheres. > > That is why I completely gird from my mind the fact that my beloved > Mystara is now an AD&D product. > IMO, symmetry is overestimated most times... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:33:43 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Not sure what you mean by "cock up"...besides, Immortals are above any such laws... At 08:00 AM 9/18/98 PDT, you wrote: > > >>1) Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. However it can be >>teleported and polymorphed... >> >Most definately not! This as a law would totally cock up the abilities >of the Spheres. Since the Immortals use their varying powers dependant >on sphere there would be no reason to choose one over another. BTW you >do remember that Entropics want to destroy EVERYTHING don`t you? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:35:35 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Oh yeah, one more thing...you do remember that science/magic laws are made up/observed by mortals right? So "Matter can neither be created...etc" would have been a law observed/created by some Glantrian sage. At 05:31 PM 9/18/98 +0100, you wrote: > >>Most definately not! This as a law would totally cock up the abilities >>of the Spheres. Since the Immortals use their varying powers dependant >>on sphere there would be no reason to choose one over another. BTW you >>do remember that Entropics want to destroy EVERYTHING don`t you? > > > >maybe the heat death of the universe will do :) > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:39:48 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Hoooray! Let the celebrations begin! <|:D Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:13:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > > Good point -- that means we have to resort to the explanations on the > "unwanted side effects" thread. My favorite is the one that would suggest > at a child has a well developed personality by the time it is discovered > that he or she has no talent for magic -- and at that point any magic that > would grant said talent to the child would destroy the child's original personality. > Hmmmn. . . .wondering how to expand/apply this theory. I.E. it might also explain why D&D Mages (and Clerics, btw: D&D Clerics have access to the Wish spell as well) don't go around with scores of 18 in every ability: changing your ability scores (of course the *characters* wouldn't nessisarily think that way) might have unforseeable consiquences (you don't know if you'll still be *you* after you've undergone the "change". . .in this respect this kind of "superhumanization" might be akin to the "superDEhumanization" that dudes in Cyberpunk style games can be afflicted with if they undergo too much "alteration"). Wondering now if anyone has any (suitably malevolent, but not excessive) ways to apply this kind of theory to PCs ("Muhahahahahaha!") *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:33:58 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-17 03:04:50 EDT, n9646788@cc.wwu.edu writes: << This has been a facinating debate, and I would like to add a new dimension by asking how the various nations would react, alone or with their allies. Also, which generals would be best able to grasp the differences and react (i.e. which generals would be able to adapt to the different technology and the tactics of modern warfare?) >> thanks for the support and enthusiasm. alot of the reactions and what not would be based upon the numerical size of the tech invaders. it would also be influenced by the tech forces' objectives. imo there wouldn't be a worldwide coalition to meet these invaders for battle. and they relative speed of the mechanized techno attackers would favor their expansion. for ex. if they landed on brun they could overrun darokin (imo excellent tank country) in a matter of days. taking darokin offers the invaders several options for following military objectives. imo darokin is the key to the conquest of Brun. the conquest of the alphatian continent would be founded upon the southern and southeastern kingdoms. the tech invaders' ability for rapid and widespread movement would allow them the luxery to hit the continent without having to use a "island hopping" campaign through the IoD, Bellissaria, the Alatians, and eventually landing on Alphatia proper. if i ever gamed a tech invasion, i'd land my troops in darokin and take them out. i would the separate my forces into three groups. group north would attack northward towards glantri through the broken lands. group south would attack karameikos and the five shires. the central group would stay put in darokin and occupy it while the north and south groups take their objectives. central group would be a reserve to group north. once glantri had been taken, groups north and central would sweep into the ethengar khanates and split to attack the HKs and the ylari. no offense jamuga but the ethie aren't going to last long in what i see as ideal tank country: the steppes. by now tech reinforcements would have arrived. group south would be reinforced and attack sind/hule. one of the groups (the strongest) in ylaruam would attack into thyatis. the other group would move into norwold. rockhome, minrothad, ierendi, and wendar would be ignored for now and designated as second tier objectives. after the brun objectives are reached, the focus would turn to the IoD and Bellissarria. by now, ample aircraft and possibly seagoing vessels (destroyers, cruisers, amphib. assault carriers) would be landed and organized. i'd send a group to each island. for the assault on alphatia, i'd add a twist. by now alphatia's magical strength should be known either from captured nations or from experience from the belli. or IoD campaigns. with that in mind the techs would hit alphatia from several angles to force the alphs to distribute their more powerful mages more. while alphatia is under seige, specialty troops would be sent into bypassed brun nations like Aegnmor and rockhome. and not to forget regions where combined arms tactics are hindered. anyway... Rangers and Green Berets would use air support and work with the 10th Mountain Div. to clear these two areas. these units would then be rested for use in alphatia such as blackheart, foresthome, and shiye-lawr. of course that's a general outline and lacking many "known" factors. how nations will react and ally themselves, how long it would take them to adapt, and how long it would take for them to be conquered. alex "give me a large enough lever and i shall move the world" - Archimedes "give me the stuff and i'll give em hell" - US WW2 propaganda poster *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:58:14 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) In a message dated 1998-09-18 13:30:29 Eastern Daylight Time, eand@WPI.EDU writes: > It could be that Magic works because Del x B != 0 because of a particular > infuence from the NoS. > Or because it comes from a different dimension (though that one it a bit > more perposterous, why hasn't that dimension manifested itself here?) Actually the gold box Immortals set had an explanation for this one -- the Prime Plane that contains Mystara is a pentaspace or five dimensional space, while our universe is a "mere" trispace. We have not observed the magical dimension because it is missing from our universe. And surely the Nucleus of the Spheres cannot be the source of magic on Mystara, as both magic and the Immortals clearly pre-date the arrival of the Beagle. In fact, there is evidence that Immortal magic was used to tamper with the Beagle's technology in various ways. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #640 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 641 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes [MYSTARA] - Immortal Question Re: [MYSTARA] - ...it's about Darokin Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos. Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone Re: [MYSTARA] - Don`t mess with Jamuga Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:58:17 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) In a message dated 1998-09-18 13:30:29 Eastern Daylight Time, eand@WPI.EDU writes: > I wouldn NOT doubt that :) In fact I am under the same inpression. > However, trying as a Physicist to discover these laws in a setting where > no quantitiative analysis can take place is really silly. Even Quantum > mechanics was designed from Quantitative and Qualitative experiments. What would make quantitative analysis impossible? It would seem that you could analyze things in any area where either no spells are being cast or you have full knowledge of the spells being cast. In fact, many cultures (notably that of Glantri) seem to take a "scientific" approach to magical research and thus have accumulated some rather detailed and voluminous observations and measurements that could prove quite helpful in figuring out the secrets of their world. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:58:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society In a message dated 1998-09-15 20:20:27 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > If you're a mage, just make sure you marry (rated G) one. The genes > work out beautifully. Besides, what self-respecting power hungry mage is > even going to want children? Well -- few mages seem to be power hungry enough to refrain from producing children. As for marrying a mage to ensure that your children are mages -- Prince Jaggar, Prince Etienne, and the father of Prince Volospin all did that and still managed to have children who were totally lacking in magical talent. And of the four children so "afflicted", only one of them (Volospin's brother) seems to have been of insufficient intelligence -- all of the others are described in terms that suggest they were of average or better intelligence. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:58:22 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society In a message dated 1998-09-15 20:30:57 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > A good conspiracy, and Mystara needs more. The only problem I see > is that Alphatia's reach, while long, is not infinite. Think of all of > the nations Haldemar "discovered" scattered across the continents. I > doubt Alphatia would be that good at controlling anything in Thyatis or > Minea/Easterhold. Perhaps there is some hidden society of super-powerful > psionicists (a la Dark Sun's Order), but unlike the Order, any > psionicist is fair game. They live in some hideously remote monastery, > and devote themselves to keeping Mystara "pure." They could actually be > mages or clerics; divination would be particuarly useful for them. Another possibility is that no such society exists -- and that theory seems to fit best with what we know of Mystara. The lack of such an organization would also imply a lack of training for potential psionicists, meaning that "wild talents" would be far more common than true psionicists. And true psionicists would be so rare that most people mistake them for other kinds of spellcasters or (on the Savage Coast) for "renegade" Inheritors -- and so far no psionicist has had a high enough profile to make anyone suspect otherwise. On the other hand, if we assume that Mystics are in fact psionicists, then they would form a psionic order powerful enough to keep all other psionicists in check. The discipline imposed by their cloisters seems to be more than enough to ensure that psionicists do not draw unfavorable attention to themselves -- the Mystics are quite well able to police their own. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:28:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes In a message dated 1998-09-16 12:21:04 Eastern Daylight Time, Valerya@webtv.net writes: > The gnomes of Serraine...They figured out how to use a jet engine to > power their flying city. They fly it all over the world. Couldn't they > conceivably get their little hands on a SC gun and figure out how to run > it without smokepowder (i.e., make their own gunpowder)? So...do the > different physical properties of Mystara prevent this from happening > (like I proposed a couple of weeks ago, that for instance the RW > ingredients for gunpowder just make something else on Mystara), or do we > have to hunt them down and exterminate them? (ha ha ha ha)... A kobold advisor of mine definitely favors hunting down and exterminating the gnomes.... ;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:28:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-16 02:08:04 Eastern Daylight Time, Alex295@aol.com writes: > deciding whether an alphatian pc is a mage is up to the player. if the > player wants to be a mage, cleric, fighter, etc. that is their call. Of course, if the character is of noble origin and elects NOT to become a mage, then it would be reasonable to deduce that he lacks the talent for magic. On the other hand, any character who begins play as a mage evidently has some degree of magical talent, while the issue is far less certain for all other character types. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:45:23 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment >The problem here is that IRL a Ghost requires a magic item to be hit. While >a sword enchanted by a Mage (Excaliber for example) would hit that ghost- a >solid normal object (no matter the speed it travels) could not. >A Vampire- your projectile will pass straight through, while a +1 sword >impacts solidly with it. >Wraithform is like the ghost above. Remember also that the "explosive >charge" has to hit something to explode, thus there is no argument that the >explosion itself is magical as it must first impact to do so. I must say that in every film where fantasy and tech mix it up, the werewolves, ghosts and vampires are still immune to bullets... I must say that the power of Enchantment spells here seem to be discarded. IMO Enchantment is perhaps the most powerful school of magic, assuming that the spells are actually capable of affecting the target (not much use against undead, for example). The techies may well adapt to simple battle magic, but enchantment would be something completely unknown to them, and therefore far more worrying (like the first time you played UFO Enemy Unknown and an Ethereal gets one of your squad to shoot up the rest of your team, while you are wondering what the hell?). Enchantment is exceptionally powerful stuff when used against human targets. A simple charm person spell causes the victim to believe the caster to be "a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected". An enchanter who wraithforms in and casts this on all the commissioned officers has done far more damage than any squad of invokers could do. Even if it is noticed that they are charmed (highly unlikely, IMHO) what are you going to do with them then? Lock them up? You might be able to get a whole company to surrender (assuming the grunts are so disciplined that they will obey unusual orders from their superiors - given that army training does generally seek to get soldiers to obey ANY order (enchantment not being a problem IRL) i cant really see much of a problem here). Hypnotism could be used against a soldier to posthypnotically open the doors after lights out, distract the defenders or some other thing, allowing a team to sneak into a defended camp. Scare and sleep take out fairly large numbers of low level (ie soldier) opponents with minimal fuss. Confusion and chaos thrown into a camp will start a riot! (Note that under confusion or chaos if the victim is attacked, he perceives the attacker as an enemy and will react accordingly, so any attempt to "break it up" will just cause a fight). Fire charm not only affects everyone within line of sight, it also doles out a suggestion (surrender? run away?). Given low level saving throws its going to get upwards of 80% of those who look at it, to. Fear would be a powerful spell for use against armies. Fear tends to be contagious - if you are crouched in a bunker, waiting for for the enemy to turn up, and from out of the forest in front of you comes a horde of soldiers running for their lives, it takes guts to stick around. (And it makes them drop all their weapons, too!). Emotion, using the hopelessness variant, could get a squad of troops of surrender, and then make them more tractable for interrogation at the same time. Fumble would be nasty, given what can go wrong when using dangerous tech weapons (a nasty accident blows up the tank...). Higher level stuff like Demand (cast it on the general, even when hes on another plane (!) Antipathy-Sympathy (get the entire army to cluster around a point), Charm Plants (this spell is underrated - any spell with a permanent duration is worthy IMO, they would have to fight the forest as well as you) and Guards and Wards (i personally dont think this spell is much good, but i know a lot of ppl who swear by it :-) would be extremely effective against an army of techies. And more importantly, the techies wouldnt know whats going on, as enchantment is quite a subtle school, and they have no defence - other than the All Important Saving Throw. A further point concerning occupation - its easy to steal an M-16 and work out how to use it. It is very hard to become a wizard (3-4 years training to get to 1st level apprentice?). The technology advantage would be less relevant as time goes on, as the defenders steal some for themselves, but unless the techies can actually convert wizards to their cause (unlikely to do so in large numbers IMO, the advent of technology would be a major upset for mages) they arent going to get any magical powers until some years down the road. This also means of course that its important that mages dont die in large quantities, but I cant see this happening between spells like contingency and clone (and raise dead!). Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:54:25 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >IMO, that is the only way to describe it. Entropy in all its forms opposes >everything. i think in the Golden Book it says something along the lines of "entropy destroys matter, stifles thought, extinguishes energy and stops time". exactly how the "stopping time" thing works i dont know :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:10:36 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >Of course no one knows the whole thing, and it always says things like 's= >ee >Section XXXX-XXX-XXX page XXXXXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX volume XXXXX-XXXX-XXXX, = >and >that is in the hands of someone else. >And he won't give it to you, And they never bother replacing the "XXXXX" with the actual page numbers, either. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:45:23 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic > once glantri had been taken, > groups north and central would sweep into the ethengar khanates and split to > attack the HKs and the ylari. no offense jamuga but the ethie aren't going to > last long in what i see as ideal tank country: the steppes. No problem! Such a haughtiness wil cause the death of many proud tankers and elite infantry soldiers. :-) The point is: When their neighbours are unable to grasp the Ethengarian way of life non-Mystarans would not be able to likewise. After some weeks the tanker crews will learn not to leave their vessel when being on the Sea of Grass (not that they are completely safe inside). Jamuga Khan "Hey, you anti-tank units! When being so slow the monsters from outer side will smash you into the ground. So, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE!!!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-16 12:45:46 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > You imply that non-spellcasting Alphatians are given freedom of choice in > the matter. IMO, highly unlikely at best. Everyone is tested (and if you > think that is outragious, well, in most modern countries, even in most > modern democratic countries, education is mandatory). The slaves and > servants cannot "opt out" of the system. Education is mandatory in most modern societies -- in earlier ones it was a rare privilege. And in the case of slaves or servants with a bias against spellcasters -- it would probably be an excellent idea to let them "opt out" of the system. Keep in mind that these folks will have been busy filling their children's heads with their un-Alphatian ideas. The last thing that the Alphatians would want would be for somebody with such attitudes to become a member of the ruling class. If they are not trained, they will remain slaves or servants, and they can be controlled by the usual methods. Thus, the problem of unwilling parents is self-correcting. In any case, children who are trained as wizards will undoubtedly want to take steps to ease the plight of their closest relatives -- and there is certainly little reason to discourage such natural tendencies, as it does give the common folk some hope for social advancement. What is necessary, however, is to discourage these young aristocrats from wanting to overhaul the entire system - -- and that should be fairly easily done, I should think, especially given that money alone is required to advance a commoner from Slave to Servant to Freeman to Gentry. Once an aristocrat has made himself a lord and his closest relatives into gentry, he will most likely accept the system that he has reached such heights in. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:23 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society In a message dated 1998-09-16 15:20:21 Eastern Daylight Time, JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes: > Dunno! Can even the black-heartest wizard resist the look of a pair of > innocent child's eyes? Or perhaps not so innocent -- the black-hearted wizard would be most favorably disposed towards a kid that resembles himself. Of course, this assumes that he did not do something nasty to his own parents -- in which case he would have good reason to fear his own children. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:25 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. In a message dated 1998-09-16 16:46:37 Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes: > Very nice! Magic comes from energy...what more need be said? Or perhaps, > magic comes from the spheres in general...whether matter, entropy, energy... > > This explains both clerical and magical...and perhaps even mystic... > > I have some more thoughts but I need to sort them out... I think I may have this one worked out: Energy: Wizardry Time: Priestcraft Thought: Psionics Matter: Technomancy/Fantasy Physics/Other Entropy: Necromantic or undead magic Wizardry, Priestcraft, and Psionics would be the special powers of wizards, priests, and psionicists, respectively. The Sphere of Matter could be the source of power for "fantasy physics", most innate racial abilities, fairy magic, and any other supernatural power that does not seem to fall into the other categories. Humans can wield some of that power but would have no special advantages as they do with the other three Spheres. For Entropy, the powers of the undead would be the power emanating from that sphere. Appropriately, this would be the only Sphere whose power would (usually) be inaccessible to player characters. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:31 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes In a message dated 1998-09-17 06:22:48 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > On a related note, how advanced mathematically do you (or anyone) > think the various nations of Mystara are? I imagine fantasy physics > would need fantasy calculus, but I'm primarily interested in so called > "real" math. Darokin is based on advanced enough nations to have > integral and derivative calculus, but I can't recall any mention of any > such uses. Since Darokin is so far ahead, and isn't particulary reknown > for it's magic, perhaps Darokin is about to enter a "golden age" of > science, with Newton, Liebnitz, Joule, Pascal, et c., clones running > around. Quite possibly -- the time would seem to be ripe for the development of fantasy calculus. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that mathematical development was rendered difficult for many centuries by illiteracy, the use of cumbersome number systems, and the necessity of carrying out all calculations by hand. Darokin has presumably overcome the first two problems but not the third. Those of you who are under thirty probably have little memory of dealing with slide rules and books of trigonometric tables -- imagine going back before those books existed and having to carry out the calculations by hand to generate them. So Darokin may well be on the brink of a revolution in this area -- but it will be many years before the effects of this revolution are felt. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:21:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Question Hi guys, just a quick question... I was just looking at the Designer's Manual from CoM--who the heck is Brandan Earth-Mover (Initiate??), Sphere of Matter (p.36)? Has anybody used him for anything, or is he just one of the nameless hoards of lesser Immortals running around out there? :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:52:50 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - ...it's about Darokin I once ran a game that Darokin & Minrothad were allied as one in a goal to economically take over the world. Key leaders of each country were being controlled by an outside force that the PCs found out as part of their adventuring. It was a side plot I came up with that the players never followed so I pretty much dropped it for others that had their interest. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:52:49 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos. <> How about the three crones from Norwold? : ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:52:52 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone <> But in Melnebone, they made a human organ and the "pipes" were pick by the sound of a humans scream. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:52:47 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone I've always patterned the shadowelves as being more like the elves of Melnebone. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:52:45 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Don`t mess with Jamuga ...it reminds me to this movie where all Arabian characters were played by good European... Could you be thinkin of The Wind and the Lion with Sean Connery *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:51:35 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > Hmmmn. . . .wondering how to expand/apply this theory. I.E. it might also >explain why D&D Mages (and Clerics, btw: D&D Clerics have access to the >Wish spell as well) don't go around with scores of 18 in every ability: >changing your ability scores (of course the *characters* wouldn't >nessisarily think that way) might have unforseeable consiquences (you don't >know if you'll still be *you* after you've undergone the "change". . .in >this respect this kind of "superhumanization" might be akin to the >"superDEhumanization" that dudes in Cyberpunk style games can be afflicted >with if they undergo too much "alteration"). > Wondering now if anyone has any (suitably malevolent, but not excessive) >ways to apply this kind of theory to PCs ("Muhahahahahaha!") Most of the players I've met in the Cyberpunk genre don't care the slightest about the dehumanization that, say, a full borg converison does to you. The only characters that bother at all are those, like mages and psychics in Rifts, who are adversly affected by the extra-gadgets. Anyway, dehumanization is often relative: does someone who has a prostheticc limb necessarily dehumanized? Of course, some people can deal with the change on their own, some need threapy before they can accept the change, and others are effectively hopeless. It would depend a lot on the individual. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:59:24 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical field theory (was Re: - Technology &WotI?) >Actually the gold box Immortals set had an explanation for this one -- the >Prime Plane that contains Mystara is a pentaspace or five dimensional >space, while our universe is a "mere" trispace. We have not observed the >magical dimension because it is missing from our universe. > >And surely the Nucleus of the Spheres cannot be the source of magic on >Mystara, as both magic and the Immortals clearly pre-date the arrival of the >Beagle. In fact, there is evidence that Immortal magic was used to tamper >with the Beagle's technology in various ways. Another good point is that magic has actually become much more powerful after the NoS: if you look in the Blackmoor modules, the most powerful mages in the realms, Robert & Jallapiere, are 16-th level, and neither has an intelligence of 18, so neither could cast wish even if they were of sufficent level. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:06:22 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >i think in the Golden Book it says something along the lines of "entropy >destroys matter, stifles thought, extinguishes energy and stops time". > >exactly how the "stopping time" thing works i dont know :-) Well, the empirical definition of time is the duration between two events. If this is so, then when there isn't anything to do anything, time will have no meaning. Of course, if anything is then created, time is ready and waiting, so it's an unknown situation. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:41 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Those dastardly gnomes >Quite possibly -- the time would seem to be ripe for the development of >fantasy calculus. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that mathematical >development was rendered difficult for many centuries by illiteracy, the use >of cumbersome number systems, and the necessity of carrying out all >calculations by hand. Darokin has presumably overcome the first two >problems but not the third. Those of you who are under thirty probably >have little memory of dealing with slide rules and books of trigonometric >tables -- imagine going back before those books existed and having to >carry out the calculations by hand to generate them. So Darokin may >well be on the brink of a revolution in this area -- but it will be many >years before the effects of this revolution are felt. For everyday diffusion of knowledge, yes, but for general advancement, you just need one genius who is willing to devote his/her life to the art: Galileo didn't even had a clock, so he weighed dripping water to time his gravity experiments. Newton also had to do eveything by had, and don't forget the Arabians who invented algebra. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:26:28 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-18 08:49:25 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << > Death fog does acid damage, to the tank. I wasnt really assuming that the > crew would get hit by it.>> > >acid damage like a chem agent. the factor is the tank surviving the agent and >shielding the crew from the chem agents. these the Abrams can do. Im not aware of any chemical weapon that has much of an effect on inanimate matter in real life, in any way comparable to a death fog spell. Not only that, but death fog means that the troops may be stuck in there for a long time, so temporary protection is not good enough.>> the thing about death fog is that the acid affect is not that awe inspiring. small plants such as grass killed in 2 rounds. bushes and shrubs in 4 rounds. small trees in 8 rounds. large trees in 16 rounds. human targets take 1 point of initial damage. this goes up to 2 points in the second round. 4 in the third. 8 in the 4th and therefore it doesn't to people and objects. subsequent rounds. this is an acidic vapor. getting out of the fog stops the damage. and even if it didn't there is a rw NATO counter for residual hazardous agents. imo a rw equivelent to death fog is chemical agents. a rw equiv. of death spell is nerve agents such as seron gas (i know i misspelled it). NATO doctrine recognized these threats and enacted countermeasures and protection equipment. >once again i have no prob with wraitform being used for recon. popping in to >toss a few offensive spells does. the tactic is sound as it mixes spells to >get in and inflict damage. the problem is the assumption that said mage can >pop in and out with impunity. each time the mage becomes substantial they are >subject to mg fire. this scenario would be highly dependant on individual >running the mage and mechanized forces. initiative would play heavily. given >that the term platoons has come into play, the area for visual discover and >the volume of counterfire increases. > Well, the mage isnt going to pop out of wraithform in full view of a gunner, now. Hes going to be in a position where no one can see him.>> first you are assuming that everything is going to go the way of the mage. second you are assuming the tankers are idiots. to cast the spell he has to be within proper range. do you seriously think armour is going to let potential cover for the enemy stand. they are at least going to spread out to watch all possible approaches and angles of attack. suspect areas are going to draw precautionary fire. that tactic dates back to WW2. <> i am sorry. i guess we'll just have to disagree with each other. <> tank doctrine has the platoon tanks covering specific areas of the platoon's perimeter. the "everyone firing upon a single target" just doesn't happen. if the others do any firing it will be to provide suppression fire directed in other directions. <> i'd at least give the troops (wearing masks and suits) a save vs. death spell. you know...i am not going to respond to the rest of this message. i don't have the time or the patience to keep rehashing the doctrines of modern warfare. rob and myself have obvious differences of opinions on certain aspects. imo these differences aren't going to be resolved no matter what i offer in response. needless to say, i will practice what i preached and respond with new info. no more repeats. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #641 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 642 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:26:43 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-18 09:15:17 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << This vaunted NBC system is actually quite a simple device. Primarily protecting the occupants by an internal overpressure system. It does not protect the exterior in any way, because it doesnt need to. Death fog will however melt the outside - tracks, armour, engine, weapons... and internal overpressure system isnt going to do a thing here.>> the NBC system is a multi component system. the overpressure aspect is but part of the system. the NBC includes agent detection equipment, airfiltration, and imposing a barrier to protect the tank and the crew. protection includes sealing the crew and driver's compartments from the exterior with gaskets. the overpressure does a simple yet needed task. when a hatch is open a corridor of clean air from within the tank is expelled to clear away suspended hazardous agents. this corridor is maintained to keep the hazardous agents out of the tank when the hatches are open. the tank too is protected. plating exceeds the corrosive affects of known agents. the engine is protected using air intake scrubbers. ><< High tech targets are immune to normal weapons. High tech weapons inflict > normal damage to high tech targets. Magical weapons inflict 1 point of > damage per magical + of weapon. High tech weaponry ignores medieval armour, > only the magical + counts for determining armour class.>> > >i probably wouldn't be using such a broad brush regarding norm. weapons vs. >tech weapons. i'd base it on the nature of the attack vs. the nature of the >target. a crossbow fired at a tank: paint scuffed. so, yeah. Crossbow = paint scuffed crossbow +1 = 1 point of damage.>> actually i'd have the tanks protected with a protection from normal missiles type affect due to the armour protection. > ><< electricity based attacks - ditto, a lightning bolt would short out a tank > if it fails a save vs lightning. Note that magical lightning isnt impeded > by insulators.>> > >i am still leary of that one. imo the armour would stop or deflect it. shock >damage to the electronics would be cut out due to breakers. well, i think a lightning bolt would ignore a circuit breaker. It certainly isnt nonmagical electricity in the way it behaves :) It would probably just blast all electronics in the area of effect, its just going to melt insulation and bypass circuit breakers entirely. In tale of the comet, lightning was the Weapon!>> that was TotC. i strongly suspect that deal was designed with magic and tech to be equally matched. its an adventure. it's supposed to be balanced. from what i am hearing it was done differently than i would have. the lightening attack aspect bothers me as you seem to be customizing the attack to do what you want it to do. if the lightening acts like regular lightening in regards to overload circuits and melt wiring (overwhelming the hardware) it has to respect the circuit breakers and/or fuses. <> i have before me two 1/35th scale models of a M1 Abrams and a M1A1 Abrams. plus i have a reference book that centers on the M1 family. needless to say the tank's arse is protected with more than an inch of plating. there is also a large raised grilling for venting exhaust. i'd estimate the grills (from pics) to be about 4-6 inches deep. however, i'd consider a hit upon a tank (esp. frontally) to deflect the lightening bolt as if has hit a stone wall. > <> > >hmm....heck why not. but i wouldn't say destroyed....howabout disabled and out >of action until repaired? > fair enough - poor crew tho :)>> not really. they are armed with at least their sidearms. they are wearing their bodyarmor. and chances are good that friendly forces (tanks and/or APCs) are nearby. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:26:51 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-18 11:44:11 EDT, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes: << I`ve been away for a few days so I`m still catching up, so if this debate is over sorry for the reminder. Here`s how Two 5th level characters take the tank out. Mage `con light` on necklace, cleric `con dark ` on length of string, mage `fly`, mage `invisibility`. mage flies onto tank wearing necklace and holding string, tie string to tank, fly away. Tank is now enveloped in darkness. The grunts inside can`t see through their instruments even if you say that the inside doesn`t go dark. On their own thats it apart from shooting/moving blind or bailing out . in a group just repeat using mor `darkness` or `con dark`. >> hey paul, once again the question of getting close would come into play. you cannot say that they suceed automatically. the tank crew has an opportunity to machine gun the mage or whoever before they land on the tank and while they are tying it on. not to forget the other tanks of the platoon who could shower the tank with mg fire without risk of killing their buddies. even tossing a grenade would clear the infiltrator. it is a good idea though. imo you'd have to play it out to decide if it works for each tank. crews would catch on. they could conceal their location by smoke dischargers. that smoke does not blind them thanks to the M1's optics which can see through the smoke. it would take the tank out of the fight at least as long enough for the darkness neckless to be found and removed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:27:22 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) In a message dated 98-09-18 16:17:13 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes: >that's the key to a NBC based system. firstly there is a shielding affect to >keep the dangerous agents out. then there is a filtration system to scrub the >air, not only to remove the possibilities of leaked dangerous agents but also >the accumulated carbon dioxide from the breathing of the crew. heck even the >engine has a filtration system to clean the inducted air to remove >contaminates. > This is workable, problem is that the filtration system cleaning the air will not be able to scrub the soldiers clean of the acid that's in everything. It's like trying to use it on a soldier peppered in WP.>> you don't have me yet. the answer to the contaminated protection gear as well as contaminated vehicles lays with a little known NBC defense system called the NBC Defence Regiments. the core of these units are German Fuchs NBC 6-wheeled APCs whose task is to detect, analyze, and map contaminated areas. inside are NBC detection equipments. iirc there are 11 Fuchs NBC vehicles in the regiment. the rest of the regiments vehicles are to decontaminate the contaminated vehicles and personel. then there are medical vehicles in case of casualties. there is article with pics of a British NBC Defense Regiment in the Feb. 1997 issue of Military in Scale magazine. as an aside, troops and vehicles also have NBC detection tape strips attached to their hulls and persons to detect the presense of hazardous agents. so the troops won't be charging blindly into affected areas. the decontamination may not be a factor against death fog as i doubt it would cling to the tank or the indivual troopers. the spell description does not mention any additional damage once the person(s) have left the vapors. >the fog coming in through the breech still bothers me. gamewise it would be an >excellent "achilles heel" for the tank. in reality i am hesitant. imo the >overpressure affect of the NBC system would keep it out at least long enough >for a safe reload. the firing would then clear the fog out. the rw example >surely has device or coverage to keep the bio/chem agents from entering >through the barrel. > I don't think that NBC agents are kept out while reloading. I think the military relies on the fact that "seepage" is minimal- and that the interior systems will take care of a small amount of leakage without undue danger to the crew. Should Death Fog be centered in the barrel however- this should cause more than enough to get in to severely wound the loader. The firing would clear the fog I'd think.>> well the problem with assuming a minimal seepage is that many of the hazardous agents can kill you dead with but a minimal amount. that's why would have to assume a zero leakage counter on the barrel and breech. maybe the barrel fume extractor does this. >temporary protection is the key phrase. and i would say that troops outside of >the fog would be the only ones capable of donning their gear. troops hate >wearing the suits and masks when it isn't necessary. of course troops riding >in a LAV or Bradley would be protected by each vehicles NBC system. > Non-dispatched troops riding in APC's and LCV's are not a threat until they "dismount" or open gunports for combat. In either case, that's when the death fog gets used on them.>> well APCs such as the M2/3 Bradley have sealed small arms gun ports. modified M-16s can be fired by the troops inside the Bradley. the LAV-25 also has the gunports and there are also hatches on the top of the infantry squad section. both the Brads and LAVs are turreted having a stabilized 20mm cannon and coaxial mg. the LAV has a hatch mounted mg too. the Brad has a TOW missile launcher. so the mounted infantry can fight from the safety of the APCs. >> On this point- I have to ask how often Unseen Servant has played a role [unseen servant stuff snipped] regarding the unseen servant i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. the difference lays with the corporal or noncorporal nature of unseen servants. << Servant-2 (operating within a segment of the other): Push down on all manmade items in "x" area that you are able to. Items should be pushed down at least 4". This just detonated claymore mines (unless they're held or covered), and anti-personnel mines.>> corporal or noncorporal i'd have the unseen servant taking damage from a claymore. the claymore mine is an area affect weapon. the explosive nature imo qualifies it as effective against the unseen servant. >>In a tank platoon, these same barriers could cause interruptions in tank >> crews relaying information to each other as well.>> >i cannot think of much that could interrupt the info relay. killing a tank >could negate one head of the recon hydra but not the entire sub structure.i >see no way that spells could block radio or other signal transmissions that >broadcast info to the crews and to their computer systems. > Agreed again, but the crew of tank-a cannot tell tank-b that there is a Mage next to it if the crew of tank-a cannot see the Mage because of an intervening barrier.>> but then there are tank c and tank d of that platoon. not to forget other tanks in other platoons. and accompanying mechanized infantry. the M1a2s use a system named the Block II (PIP). this is essentially an improvement to battlefield imagery, command-and-control, target acquisition/identification, and optics. this basically assembles info from all the individual tanks and APCs and combines it realtime recon from satelites, airborn radar C&C planes, and HQ to to feed the battlefield info to the tank. so there's not alot of places to hide. >well urban unrest is easy for a techno army to quell. given their own >sophistication and the occupied or beseiged "backward" nature, sympathy is >diminished. hard targets would be subject to bombardment with little mercy. if >a fight is needed, the weaponry of the technos would blast through the >defenses and troops could be carried in with the protection of troop >carriers. > "Hard targets" would have fallen within the first 30 seconds of the occupation. (2) hits from a 105 or 120mm gun would make most Mystaran castles little more than burned out shells. Martial Law is a lot harder to maintain in a magical environment as Thieves using a few minor magic items do things that the soldiery finds impossible. In little to no time you've got technology falling from enemy hands into those of the Thieves who distribute this hardware wherever they deem that it does the most good.>> keeping the peace may not be all that difficult. these are beaten and backwards people. i mean their armies have been devastated by the invaders' techno weapons. the cities's defenses were blasted to rubble. the locals morale probably isn't too good. this mystara with peasantry and nobility. essentially what you are doing is swapping one ruler for another. if the invaders treat the locals well, then resistance is limited. as far as rebels, there will be some, but these folk will be hardpressed to meet the occupying tech troops on equal terms. even capturing tech weapons wouldn't help them. they lack the experience to use them to any degree to effectively combat the trained tech troops. they also would lack the logistics to create their own ammo and service the weapons. >as for the locals, imo the backwards nonspellcasting folk would probably >embrace the tech occupiers if treated fairly. imagine the technos introducing >everyday items that make our lives so easy: microwave ovens, airconditioning, >food refrigeration, electric lights, plumbing, etc. without the support of >locals a guerrilla/partisian force is doomed to failure. > The problems here are that an army in the field is not going to have all of these conveniences on hand- what little they do, they are not going to give to the locals.>> that depends. captured citires are going to become base of operations, supply hubs, rest and recreation areas, and so on. i'm not talking about building Trump Plaza or a waterpark in downtown Darokin City. basic comforts provided by technology. airconditioning, food refrigeration, etc. << An army does not occupy an area and bring a better life to the locals (at least that hasn't happened in RW history)- unless we're talking about on the long-term, then it happens slowly integrating the two cultures- and with a lot of resistance on both sides.>> it matters on what you consider a better life. take post ww2 europe and japan. europe and japan were devastated by the war. US industry played a heavy role in getting europe back on its feet. this was even more so with japan. the degree of "a better life" varies but yes there are other examples where through being conquered a peoples life is bettered. and this exchange is not always one way. the conquered often influence the conquerors. <> but it is that same connection with the community that inspires the guerillas to fight. the trick is to undermine that support. the guerillas can only operate within that support area. kind of ironic if you think about it. << On Mystara this is not the case. They've got the wide-open non-industrial countryside and wilderness to retreat into and move around in. They can't be kept at bay by simply putting soldiers on patrols as Rangers and Druids have many advantages to by-passing these patrols. In the Mystaran wilderness- the Weather, Animals, Plants, and all other forces of nature will be used against any soldiery that patrols or gives chase to a guerilla band.>> the impression that i am getting from this whole tech vs. magic thread is basically mystaran mages duking it out with F1s with rifles. or F1s riding around in a metal box. the techno troopers then being at the mercy of the mystarans. i think some of you underestimate the power of a modern warmachine. in battles against the various mystaran armies, images of the carnage of ww1 come to mind. the difference is that the mystarans are outranged and outmaneuvered. if adventurers and your key to this invasion fine. but remember that the tech invaders would have their own high level hero types. and these folk are highlevel with superior weapons, with air support, and all manner of techno goodies that even up the ante and in certain cases surpasses it. and these elite tech forces (SEALs, SAS, Spec.Forces, Rangers, etc.) come not only in variety, but also in numbers. these folk are trained to infiltrate with stealth, hit the enemy hard and in his own element, and fade away into wild. an added advantage that the elite forces have is the instilled doctrine of working as a team. a party of adventurers have to learn this on their own thru their years of adventures. Druidically, Heat Metal has been brought up with its effect on electronics in a tank. Any idea what this spell would do on a guy wearing a steel-toed boot, ammo clips, and weaponry that is carried?>> hmm....range again comes into play. the druid could use spells to get in range. once again, initiative and player strategy are going to be key. it should also be remembered that the elite troops are there and counterfire is expected. even the troops affected have a couple of rounds to get of a couple hundred rounds before the heat gets too hot to handle. <> you sending a druid with a knife against a elite trooper. these guys know close in combat. plus a kevlar vest comes in mighty handy. plus there would be flanking troops who would pick off the druid either way. << You're walking through the woods when all of the sudden you're in a mess of swarming insects...>> insect plague: thermite, fragmentation, or concussion grenades. take your pick. better than a bug zapper. creeping doom: fall back and get on the radio. call in artillery or airsupport. heavy on the HE and WP and side order of napalm. arty and air support would be how i handled any nasty druidic encounters. let him know that that precious forest can quickly become a wasteland if push comes to shove. if that isn't a choice, seek and destroy teams would be sent in at night. in the dark, their NV goggles would allow them sight well extending beyond the range of infravision. resistance forces hiding within the forests would be scouted out using armed attack choppers equipped with thermal visioning and light enhancement. chopper insertion of troops near the target area. the attack choppers would monitor and inform the ground units as well as offer air arty when needed. >i wouldn't say that. the "buddy system" is a legendary aspect of soldiering. a >tank crew is the buddy system expanded. add to that the dependancy and >teamwork and you have a solid bond. and in a foriegn land....in this case a >planet...the inner team reliance should be heightened. >as for a PC example, note that since a group of adventurers are used, there >would be means to break the charm using either the cleric or mage dispel >spell. > The "dispel magic" would be no more available to a party of Fighters and Thieves as it would be to a modern Army. Friendship has little to no bearing on a charm spell.>> how many adventurer parties do you know without any spellcasters? even a mystaran regiment or division is going to have at least one cleric or mage. as for friendship/comraderie not factoring, i'll agree. that's true according to the rules. but imc i do offer that added chance to break a charm. >the other way to negate the charm is for the caster to attack the charmed. > This is if the charmed person is aware that the caster attacked to do (or did) harm to the charmed victim.>> let's see he's dressed like the rest of the tank crew. without the caster explaining a cover story (remember the language difference) the affected is going to be confused. he's at his post in the tank. he knows what he is doing. they know his name or nickname. he knows theirs. and there is this strange looking stranger screaming at you in a foreign tongue fore you to do something against these people. i remember in the red box the fighter getting charmed by bargle. the description was that the mage took on a friendlier appearance (i'd boost Cha). any attacks against the tank is by proxy an attack against the charmed crewman. at best, i'd say a crewman under the charm influence would not attack the casting mage unless he himself is attacked by that mage. using the attack by proxy theory, that mage has to attack elsewhere or the spell is gone. so a charmed crewman would slow down the tank crews efficiency. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:58:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi In a message dated 1998-09-18 02:55:29 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > One problem with using traditonal Western systems of morality to > review Mystaran Immortal morality: for better or worse (depending on > your religious persuasion, or lack thereof), Western morality is based > on the Judeao-Christian (and to a lesser extent in the West, Islamic) > religion. This religious system presupposes a) montheism and b) God is > perfect, and can do no wrong. Mystara, on the other hand, has got > deities in spades, and they (even the best of the "good" ones) are most > certainly failable (and being failable, they are more likely to do so > than a mortal, given their power). But since the Immortals are not the ultimate Power, it is quite possible that the Western assumptions do indeed hold true. If you do not like that idea, then it may be sufficient to believe that the Old Ones have agreed to a common code of conduct by which the behavior of all beings, whether mortal, Immortal, or Old One, is judged. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:57:13 +0200 From: Ezio Pignatelli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > Hmmmn. . . .wondering how to expand/apply this theory. I.E. it might also > explain why D&D Mages (and Clerics, btw: D&D Clerics have access to the > Wish spell as well) don't go around with scores of 18 in every ability: hmm^2... yes, that could work for NPC. Still, most PC will not care so much about it, since they will still be there to play the new, much more powerful, character. The fact is, you "only" need 91 wishes to move any one stat from 12 to 18. Which is 3 months even for a mage with only 1 9th-level spell. In one year, we will have a totally munchkin char, with all stats 18, onlky by "fair" -according to canon - use of wishes. Not counting what else you can do with 91+ wishes... Best thing I can thing of - do not give wishes to your PC. :) Just avoiding mages with Int 18 can help. :)) In my group the wizard is 16. :-D - -- Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840 mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat - -- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:58:08 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality In a message dated 1998-09-18 02:34:28 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > I don't mean to sound pedantic quoting the Laws of Thermodynamics > that you must be sick of by now (Ethan, you are a physics student, > right?); I just want to make sure all the philosophy, history, art, and > literature majors (I won't make any jokes on knowledge, or lack thereof > :)) who may not be familiar with physics get the gist of what I'm > saying. Of course, those who are familiar with the Creature Crucible PC1 may have a slightly different take on Entropy. According to a theory given in that work, Entropy does not necessarily increase with time but waxes and wanes through many cycles. At one time there existed four Spheres that were named as the current ones but of an Entropic nature, opposed by the now defunct Sphere of Integration. Eventually the Sphere of Integration prevailed and split into the four modern Spheres, while the Entropic remnants of those Spheres combined to form the Sphere of Entropy. From this nadir the new Sphere of Entropy has been growing ever since -- and it will continue to do so until the "heat death" of the universe, at which point a new Sphere of Integration will arise and Entropy will begin to weaken once again. Of course, none of this really matters since every world that we are familiar with -- whether real or fantasy -- is located in the part of the cycle where Entropy is increasing. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 04:28:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! I just thought I should tell you all that I went to a local gaming convention this weekend, where one of the people I encountered in the dealer's room was none other than Ann Dupuis. While she did not explicitly give me any messages for this list, I am sure that she would not object to me greeting this list on her behalf. She did tell me, however, that she is very grateful to the person who forwards her the Mystara almanacs when they come out -- she definitely still holds fond memories of the role she had in the development of that game world. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:41:46 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery >imo a rw equivelent to death fog is chemical agents. a rw equiv. of death >spell is nerve agents such as seron gas (i know i misspelled it). NATO >doctrine recognized these threats and enacted countermeasures and protection >equipment. Sarin (can u believe that i actually did an optional course in chemical warfare??? :). Derived from insecticide... Nerve gas kills by inhibiting enzymes in the human body, ie it is a poison. It does not have any particularly corrosive properties against objects - however some variants leave a residue behind on objects, so that touching them would expose the victim to the poisons effects. It doesn't have any corrosive effects on objects, ie you cant melt a tank with the stuff. I think the cumulative damage that death fog inflicts is quite substantial after a couple of rounds (keep in mind the crew are probably thinking "ha ha, chemical weapons do not concern us!" and a tank does have vulnerable areas on it. For example, a simple HE hit on a tank isnt going to knock it out or even penetrate the armour, but could easily destroy the optical kit on a tank (incidentally FAE weapons do just that, and they are considered to have potential as a 21st century tankbuster). Speaking of FAE - incendiary cloud??? (i know, the spell is rubbish :) >first you are assuming that everything is going to go the way of the mage. >second you are assuming the tankers are idiots. to cast the spell he has to be >within proper range. do you seriously think armour is going to let potential >cover for the enemy stand. they are at least going to spread out to watch all >possible approaches and angles of attack. suspect areas are going to draw >precautionary fire. that tactic dates back to WW2. Well, this will be guerrilla warfare. I take it is red that the tech armies will win every field engagement they meet. However, they have to hold ground, and they cant fire precautionary fire 24 hours a day. > <> > >i'd at least give the troops (wearing masks and suits) a save vs. death spell. Well, there are magical devices that stop gas based attacks in D+D, they dont stop a death spell. I cannot see in the remotest how you can say that NBC kit stops a death spell. It snuffs out life forces via necromancy! its not stopped by physical barriers. You saying that NBC kit stops "weapons of mass destruction" and classing a death spell as a weapon of mass destruction is just you rewriting the rules in favour of the techies! How is a mask and a plastic suit going to stop a death spell, when an scarab of protection from poison does not? Sure, cloudkill and even perhaps death fog could be stopped by NBC kit, but a death spell? This isnt a physical attack, it is a purely magical attack which has no equivalent IRL. >you know...i am not going to respond to the rest of this message. i don't have >the time or the patience to keep rehashing the doctrines of modern warfare. >rob and myself have obvious differences of opinions on certain aspects. imo >these differences aren't going to be resolved no matter what i offer in >response. needless to say, i will practice what i preached and respond with >new info. no more repeats. heh. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:46:17 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic >the lightening attack aspect bothers me as you seem to be customizing the >attack to do what you want it to do. if the lightening acts like regular >lightening in regards to overload circuits and melt wiring (overwhelming the >hardware) it has to respect the circuit breakers and/or fuses. well, i dont think i am customising it at all really. Everything in an area 80' long and 5' wide gets zapped, regardless of fuses, circuit breakers and anything else (all they do is prevent the current from continuing past them, but if the sensitive circuits are within the area of effect thats it). The only thing that will stop it is a solid object of thickness at least 1" per level. That is direct from the Rulz. IMHO classing Death Spell as a weapon of mass destruction and allowing chemical weapons kit to protect against it seems a pretty massive rewrite :-) >however, i'd consider a hit upon a tank (esp. frontally) to deflect the >lightening bolt as if has hit a stone wall. It would deflect if the armour was thick enough, i agree. And on the front the armour would be thick enough :-) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:58:17 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) >well APCs such as the M2/3 Bradley have sealed small arms gun ports. modified >M-16s can be fired by the troops inside the Bradley. the LAV-25 also has the >gunports and there are also hatches on the top of the infantry squad section. >both the Brads and LAVs are turreted having a stabilized 20mm cannon and >coaxial mg. the LAV has a hatch mounted mg too. the Brad has a TOW missile >launcher. so the mounted infantry can fight from the safety of the APCs. although IRL the IFV experiment has been a bit of dismal failure (the concept of troops fighting from within vehicles has been ditched, i believe, as it just makes the infantry more vulnerable) in a world where antitank weapons exist it may be far more effective. i have actually been thinking all along - M1 tank, not a problem, M2 Bradley, far bigger threat. > "Hard targets" would have fallen within the first 30 seconds of the > occupation. (2) hits from a 105 or 120mm gun would make most Mystaran > castles little more than burned out shells. Although magically strengthened castle walls may surprise the M1 gunners :-) >keeping the peace may not be all that difficult. these are beaten and >backwards people. i mean their armies have been devastated by the invaders' >techno weapons. the cities's defenses were blasted to rubble. the locals >morale probably isn't too good. this mystara with peasantry and nobility. >essentially what you are doing is swapping one ruler for another. if the >invaders treat the locals well, then resistance is limited. But the adventurers and nobles (ie the powerful people) not to mention the religions (who basically dictate what the common people think) i am sure would not be too happy about being occupied. And like the Rebel Alliance, all the insurgents have to do is prove that the enemy is not unbeatable. >but it is that same connection with the community that inspires the guerillas >to fight. the trick is to undermine that support. the guerillas can only >operate within that support area. kind of ironic if you think about it. Hearts and minds... >i think some of you underestimate the power of a modern warmachine. in battles >against the various mystaran armies, images of the carnage of ww1 come to >mind. the difference is that the mystarans are outranged and outmaneuvered. >if adventurers and your key to this invasion fine. but remember that the tech >invaders would have their own high level hero types. and these folk are >highlevel with superior weapons, with air support, and all manner of techno >goodies that even up the ante and in certain cases surpasses it. Although i still think that a gang of 16th level AD+D adventurers would be able to take them apart :-) Maybe i will run it in an alternate reality Mystara and find out :-) >and these elite tech forces (SEALs, SAS, Spec.Forces, Rangers, etc.) come not >only in variety, but also in numbers. these folk are trained to infiltrate >with stealth, hit the enemy hard and in his own element, and fade away into >wild. an added advantage that the elite forces have is the instilled doctrine >of working as a team. a party of adventurers have to learn this on their own >thru their years of adventures. Mmm, but these guys havnt dealt with invisible stalkers, magical lie detection, ESP, alarm spells and that sort of thing before. :-) >insect plague: thermite, fragmentation, or concussion grenades. take your >pick. better than a bug zapper. creeping doom: fall back and get on the radio. >call in artillery or airsupport. heavy on the HE and WP and side order of >napalm. Creeping doom, eveyone in it takes 1000 damage. I have respect for that spell :-) >arty and air support would be how i handled any nasty druidic encounters. let >him know that that precious forest can quickly become a wasteland if push >comes to shove. Hardly hearts and minds. More like tyrannical occupation! >if that isn't a choice, seek and destroy teams would be sent in at night. in >the dark, their NV goggles would allow them sight well extending beyond the >range of infravision. resistance forces hiding within the forests would be >scouted out using armed attack choppers equipped with thermal visioning and >light enhancement. chopper insertion of troops near the target area. the >attack choppers would monitor and inform the ground units as well as offer air >arty when needed. Well, all NV goggles would do is give 1000' infravision. I am always playing elves, and infravision doesnt do much good. (Incidentally, speaking of elves, elves are undetectable in forest until they attack. Predator, anyone? :) >how many adventurer parties do you know without any spellcasters? even a >mystaran regiment or division is going to have at least one cleric or mage. as >for friendship/comraderie not factoring, i'll agree. that's true according to >the rules. but imc i do offer that added chance to break a charm. Well, fair enough. But this is still really a bit of a rewrite in favour of techies. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #642 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 643 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Question Re: [MYSTARA] - Don`t mess with Jamuga Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:15:43 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > I think I may have this one worked out: I remember this model and similar ones from earlier debates. Some comments, however: > Energy: Wizardry > Time: Priestcraft I'm not sure about this one. IMO Priestcraft would come from the Sphere of the individual immortal worshipped. Someone did suggest that shamanism was attached to this sphere. Maybe because spirits are creatures of the past or independent of time somehow? > Thought: Psionics Mysticism would be placed here aswell, unless these are the same. > Matter: Technomancy/Fantasy Physics/Other Agreed. > Entropy: Necromantic or undead magic Since Entropy opposes everything, shouldn't there be one form of Entropic power for each of the above? Entropic Energy: Necromantic/undead magic (Black magic?) Entropic Time: Evil spirits/Demonology? Entropic Thought: Dark psionics (àla Star Wars's Dark Side?) Entropic Matter: Corrupt technology. Anyone know about Tharkholdhu Occulttech from TORG? What do you think? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:44:33 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone > > I've always patterned the shadowelves as being more like the elves of > Melnebone. > Hmmmn. . .interesting. Could you say why you think they are like Melneboneans? Because I've never seen a similarity (<----note that isn't to say they *aren't* like Melneboneans; I may have missed similarities that you caught.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:47:27 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > > The fact is, you "only" need 91 wishes to move any one stat from 12 to > 18. > Which is 3 months even for a mage with only 1 9th-level spell. Actually, even D&D puts some limits on it: you have to cast all the wishes in one week, so a character with only 1 9th level spell (1 Wish per day) wouldn't be able to increase any score above 7. Of course, once he (or she) has 2 9th level spells, 14 becomes the "minimum" score for that munchkin. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:56:11 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > > Most of the players I've met in the Cyberpunk genre don't care the > slightest about the dehumanization that, say, a full borg converison > does to you. > Yes, well, as I said earler in a related thread: if someone offers to make you really powerful by turning you into a Cyberzombie, just say "no". > Anyway, dehumanization is often relative: does someone who has a > prostheticc limb necessarily dehumanized? > No; I'd say neither is someone who got an ability score altered by a "special circumstance" (like eating some food in Castle Amber or reading a book that raised a stat). However, dudes who go in for *extensive* "rebuilds" of themselves, to make themselves effectively superhuman, also IMO become effectively superDEhuman (or at least I think there should be rules to discourage folks from going "full Munch", even though my own tendancies are in that direction. *G* Remember: "hypocracy is vice's tribute to virtue") OTOH, the Byzantines always thought that someone "less than whole" was to some degree "dehumanized". For that reason, Eunichs were excluded from Imperial Rank, and one of the "merciful" ways to deal with a rebel (I.E. instead of killing them) was to blind or otherwise maim them, so that no one would support 'em again (didn't always work: when Justinian II was deposed, he had his nose slit in an effort to insure he didn't try a comeback, but it didn't work. But that's the only successful exception I can think of). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:57:40 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone > > <> > > But in Melnebone, they made a human organ and the "pipes" were pick by the > sound of a humans scream. > What's to say some Alphatian doesn't? Alphatians are noted for having a keen artistic sensibility, and a knack for experimentation. . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:15:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant How interesting. I wonder what the multiverse must have been like then, with Entropy dominant. Mystara must have been a VERY interesting place back then--although I'm certain that it was so long ago that we would not recognize those civilizations. Curious: did the module mention exaclty when this time was, or when it ended? Or was it "before recorded history"? I ask because this may be a clue on Thanatos's origins, no? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:58:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment In a message dated 1998-09-19 07:30:43 Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: > I must say that in every film where fantasy and tech mix it up, the > werewolves, ghosts and vampires are still immune to bullets... Although there have been a few exceptions: In "An American Werewolf in London", werewolves were quite vulnerable to ordinary bullets fired from automatic weapons. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:58:22 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant In a message dated 1998-09-20 11:44:15 Eastern Daylight Time, Valerya@webtv.net writes: > How interesting. I wonder what the multiverse must have been like then, > with Entropy dominant. Mystara must have been a VERY interesting place > back then--although I'm certain that it was so long ago that we would > not recognize those civilizations. Curious: did the module mention > exaclty when this time was, or when it ended? Or was it "before recorded > history"? I ask because this may be a clue on Thanatos's origins, no? It had to have been before not only recorded history but any history given in any timeline. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:58:21 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. In a message dated 1998-09-20 11:21:58 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Actually, even D&D puts some limits on it: you have to cast all the wishes > in one week, so a character with only 1 9th level spell (1 Wish per day) > wouldn't be able to increase any score above 7. > Of course, once he (or she) has 2 9th level spells, 14 becomes the > "minimum" score for that munchkin. Of course D&D makes that spell unavailable until a mage reaches level 33 -- at which point he can already cast seven 9th level spells a day. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:57:44 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) > you don't have me yet. the answer to the contaminated protection gear as well > as contaminated vehicles lays with a little known NBC defense system called > the NBC Defence Regiments. the core of these units are German Fuchs NBC > 6-wheeled APCs whose task is to detect, analyze, and map contaminated areas. > inside are NBC detection equipments. iirc there are 11 Fuchs NBC vehicles in > the regiment. the rest of the regiments vehicles are to decontaminate the > contaminated vehicles and personel. then there are medical vehicles in case of > casualties. > there is article with pics of a British NBC Defense Regiment in the Feb. 1997 > issue of Military in Scale magazine. > as an aside, troops and vehicles also have NBC detection tape strips attached > to their hulls and persons to detect the presense of hazardous agents. so the > troops won't be charging blindly into affected areas. > > the decontamination may not be a factor against death fog as i doubt it would > cling to the tank or the indivual troopers. the spell description does not > mention any additional damage once the person(s) have left the vapors. The "Fuchs" is a really versatile vessel. Besides the NBC Detection Tank you're describing it is used as a Radar Recon Tank and a Engineer's Tank. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:44:32 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortal Question > I was just looking at the Designer's Manual from CoM--who the heck is > Brandan Earth-Mover (Initiate??), Sphere of Matter (p.36)? Has anybody > used him for anything, or is he just one of the nameless hoards of > lesser Immortals running around out there? :-) > I believe that he is "one of the nameless hoards of lesser Immortals". Al-Kalim seems to be a really great exception in becoming prominent in such young years. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:47:34 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Don`t mess with Jamuga > Could you be thinkin of The Wind and the Lion with Sean Connery I don't know, for two reasons: 1. I never saw this movie! 2. The title would not have been an English one (Remember: I'm not from US, UK, CAN or AUS) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:55:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Entropy Dominant Of course. What I actually meant by "before recorded history" was before that history which is not only before the tmelines, but which is only hinted at in passing--i.e., when Thanatos and the other old Immortals were alive, etc. (an example of this would be that Protius is said to have been a sea creature long before the modern races existed). Sorry for not being clear. :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:09:47 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. >hmm^2... yes, that could work for NPC. Still, most PC will not care so >much about it, since they will still be there to play the new, much more >powerful, character. > >The fact is, you "only" need 91 wishes to move any one stat from 12 to 18. >Which is 3 months even for a mage with only 1 9th-level spell. In one >year, we will have a totally munchkin char, with all stats 18, onlky by "fair" -according to canon - use of wishes. Not counting what else you can do with 91+ wishes... > >Best thing I can thing of - do not give wishes to your PC. :) Just >avoiding mages with Int 18 can help. :)) In my group the wizard is 16. Another fix that a DM can use without having to restrict Wish like that is (and I believe that this is mentioned in various rulebooks with regard to spell research and magic item creation) is to enforce the time restraints: if the party's mage is spending three months casting wish, that's three months the mage is incapacitated. S/he won't be able to do much adventuring, becuase all of the 9-th level spells are used up, and I can think of few parties that level who don't want a mage capable of casting 9-th level spells. The entire party will be out of commision for those three months (more if more than one player is getting the upgrades), and that just removes most incentive for play. If the DM points out that rapid and complete score improval prevents play-time, then most players would (should) be willing to put up with the immediate lack of power in exchange for a chance to play the game. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:14:59 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >Of course, those who are familiar with the Creature Crucible PC1 may have >a slightly different take on Entropy. According to a theory given in that >work, >Entropy does not necessarily increase with time but waxes and wanes >through many cycles. At one time there existed four Spheres that were >named as the current ones but of an Entropic nature, opposed by the now >defunct Sphere of Integration. Eventually the Sphere of Integration prevailed >and split into the four modern Spheres, while the Entropic remnants of those >Spheres combined to form the Sphere of Entropy. From this nadir the new >Sphere of Entropy has been growing ever since -- and it will continue to do >so until the "heat death" of the universe, at which point a new Sphere of >Integration will arise and Entropy will begin to weaken once again. That could fit with the cosmological theory of the expanding-contracting universe, to wit: provided that the universe contains enough mass, there will reach a point in it's expansion where the gravitational forces will slow, stop, and finally reverse the expansion, culminating in the "Big Crunch", where the universe is forced back into the singularity it was prior to the Big Bang. In Mystara, Entropy increases over time, but when the mutiverse restarts, so then does time (in a sense) and Entropy is reduced back to it's original state. However, Heat Death and Expansion-Contraction are generally mutually exclusive. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:20:39 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi >But since the Immortals are not the ultimate Power, it is quite possible that >the Western assumptions do indeed hold true. If you do not like that idea, >then it may be sufficient to believe that the Old Ones have agreed to a common >code of conduct by which the behavior of all beings, whether mortal, Immortal, >or Old One, is judged. Western morality also requires a monotheism. For this to work, either there must be only one Old One, or all of the Old Ones are so alike in thought and act that there is no effective difference amongst them (this can also be a theory in, say, Christianity: if you hold that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are consubstantial, that is, of equal "ranking", they are also so alike in thought and act that there is no competition amongst them, unlike in the Greek Pantheon, where there is constant infighting). An absolute morality requires this, for if the ultimate powers sqaubble, or at the very least respectfully disagree, then each faction would have it's own morality, and since each morality is headed by an ultiamte power, it must be "true", regardless if it contradicts another "true" morality. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:36:48 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. >> Thought: Psionics > >Mysticism would be placed here aswell, unless these are the same. I disagree. The concept of the mystic is that the mystic relies entirely on his/her own body, or chi, to produce these seemingly impossible tasks. They do not rely at all on any external force or ingredient. It is an aspect of the life-force (in fact, all sorts of martial arts films make it a point to say that you do not think, that thinking is what makes you hesitate and refuse to accept the "power"; like Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try."), which, if any thing, would seem to go under Matter. Of course, there is also negative chi, and I'll mention that in a bit, under Entropy. >> Entropy: Necromantic or undead magic >Since Entropy opposes everything, shouldn't there be one form of Entropic >power for each of the above? h >Entropic Thought: Dark psionics (=E0la Star Wars's Dark Side?) Just as chi is based on life, so is negative chi based on un-life. It's important to mention here that neither is necessarily good or evil; in accordance the Oriental philosophy of yin-yang, both are merely reflections of the other, and a proper mix is necessary for the well-being of reality. Either good or evil chi masters can use either type. Through Nix, we see that Entropy is not a priori evil, but related to death and un-life, so you could see negative chi coming from here. >Entropic Matter: Corrupt technology. Anyone know about >Tharkholdhu Occulttech from TORG? I thought that Tharkhold was the best concept of a game full of good concepts. I have a Tharkhold-like plane in my campaign, and it's a rather nasty place no player ever wishes to go to. I think I'll incorporate it into my next installment of "Nation Under Siege: MNN on Assignment in Darokin". "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:49:22 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. >> Anyway, dehumanization is often relative: does someone who has a >> prostheticc limb necessarily dehumanized? >> > No; I'd say neither is someone who got an ability score altered by a >"special circumstance" (like eating some food in Castle Amber or reading a >book that raised a stat). However, dudes who go in for *extensive* >"rebuilds" of themselves, to make themselves effectively superhuman, also >IMO become effectively superDEhuman (or at least I think there should be >rules to discourage folks from going "full Munch", even though my own >tendancies are in that direction. *G* Remember: "hypocracy is vice's >tribute to virtue") Yes, when I'm a player, I always find it interesting the loopholes I "find" that I would never buy as DM. It's a game of give-and take. > OTOH, the Byzantines always thought that someone "less than whole" was to >some degree "dehumanized". For that reason, Eunichs were excluded from >Imperial Rank, Yes, but you will note that many socities, even though they consider these people less than human, will certainly take advantage of the special "abilities" they are perceived to have. Eunuchs, for example, where considered especially trustworthy under the sultans, and, due to their, ahem, "augmentation", where entrusted with the awesome responsibility of guarding the harems. Dwarves (abnormally short people, not hairy blacksmiths) where thought to be very honorable and mathematically inclined; the highest positions in the bueracracy were reserved for them, and if your court included many short ministers, you were regarded as a good judge of character. Of course, when the Middle Ages came around, dwarves were held to be good for fools and jesters, and, well, just read "Hop-Frog" by Poe. My point is that, even if "augmented" humans are regarded as less than human, praqctically speaking, no one cares. Especially if the person in question is a god among men, and can kill any critic with a swipe of the little finger. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:28:08 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi In a message dated 1998-09-20 17:11:20 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > Western morality also requires a monotheism. For this to work, > either there must be only one Old One, or all of the Old Ones are so > alike in thought and act that there is no effective difference amongst > them Your second option matches the second theory that I proposed -- our view of the Old Ones is so limited that we do not know whether there is ever any conflict or difference of opinion among them. But your first option is not necessary -- there is nothing in any published material that would preclude the existence of a singular Ultimate Power who is superior to the Old Ones, which is what I meant to suggest for my first theory. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:28:07 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. In a message dated 1998-09-20 16:51:07 Eastern Daylight Time, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > Another fix that a DM can use without having to restrict Wish like > that is (and I believe that this is mentioned in various rulebooks with > regard to spell research and magic item creation) is to enforce the time > restraints: if the party's mage is spending three months casting wish, > that's three months the mage is incapacitated. S/he won't be able to do > much adventuring, becuase all of the 9-th level spells are used up, and > I can think of few parties that level who don't want a mage capable of > casting 9-th level spells. The entire party will be out of commision for > those three months (more if more than one player is getting the > upgrades), and that just removes most incentive for play. If the DM > points out that rapid and complete score improval prevents play-time, > then most players would (should) be willing to put up with the immediate > lack of power in exchange for a chance to play the game. Of course, a patient player can still get those Wishes in -- he just has to keep good track of every bit of available "down time" -- and if he has any days that end with Wish spells unused, he can always use some of them to boost his ability scores. Of course, I like my own idea about how to discourage using wishes to improve ability scores: Every time an ability score is raised by a Wish, roll a d20. If that roll is greater than or equal to the improved ability score, there is no problem. Otherwise, roll d6 to select a random ability score. If you roll the ability score that you just raised, then again there is no problem. However, if you roll any other ability score, that ability score is reduced by one point. The factor that would discourage player characters from using Wishes to improve their ability scores is the risk that they will reduce their intelligence scores to 17, thereby denying them further access to the Wish spell. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:57:40 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere This is something I've been thinking about for a while, and would be interested in hearing the opinions of the list. It concerns what passes for Immortality on other dimensions, or even other planes. Immortals, properly speaking, are those mortals who go through certain trials, varying by sphere, and then become a new charcter class, Immortal (This is just for definitions). I know many of you (including myself) have disagreements with Mystara being a part of AD&D, but the following will help to serve my rather obscure point: in Dark Sun, one reaches "Immortality" by becoming a dragon, avangelion, or clerical elemental. You reach these different forms through long, but different from Mystaran, trials. Dragons et alia have different powers, forms, et c., than Immortals, but share many characteristics, such as immortality, granting spells, et c., and it seems resonable, especially as Athas has no gods, to label dragons and co. Athas' "Immortals". In Ravenloft, you can achieve "Immortality" by being exceptionally evil, among other things, I'm certain, and can get your own realm. Again, there are many differences between the Ravenloft Lords and Mystara Immortals, most notably that the Lords are trapped, but it seems reasonable to place them in an over-arching category: Ravenloft's "Immortals". In the Forgotten Realms, you have Mr. Greenwood write a story about you. :) I hesitate to group Immortals and standard AD&D gods (from FR, DL, GH, et c.) in the same category. While they share many of the same powers and functions in their respective worlds, Immortals and those entities mentioned above share a important difference: they were all at one time mortal. Yes, there is a method mentioned in Lore & Legends on how to become a demi-god (rather difficult, especially with that alignment thing), but most of the gods belong to a race, called "deity". They always were gods, and their children are gods as well, so they breed true. Not much has been addressed in canon regarding this, but elemental rulers (as described in the Master DM set, and briefly mentioned in IM3) seem likely to qualify as the elemental planes' Immortals, even though they seem to qualify simply because they're really big elementals. For other dimensions, if you hold the Dimension of Myth to be Earth, or a semi-magically charged Earth, like in "A Mighty Fortress", then Immortality here is found strictly in the history books. Sure, you can be worshipped as a god, but only long after you're dead. However, immortality, in the sense of living forever, seems to occur in many legends. In this case immortality is found through the Philosopher's Stone, the Fountain of Eternal Youth, or (really common in many cultures) some hideous curse. It also seems as though one can acheive Immortality in a dimension/plane not of your origin. Terra was, in her mortal life, an earth elemental. Harrow and several other diaboli from the Nightmare Dimension (of which nothing seems to be know of Immortality) have become Immortal in all of the spheres. Etinne became Immortal in Energy (albeit through unusual means), and Prince McGregor seeks Immortality in Entropy. What does the list think of my theories? I'm interested in hearing alternate methods of reaching Immortality, what Immortality is like in other places, adn any Mystara natives who have gone somewhere else and become Immortal there. Any comments? "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:05:18 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment >> I must say that in every film where fantasy and tech mix it up, the >> werewolves, ghosts and vampires are still immune to bullets... > >Although there have been a few exceptions: In "An American Werewolf in >London", werewolves were quite vulnerable to ordinary bullets fired from >automatic weapons. :) not the most excellent of films to be sure (btw, the werewolf in that film came from Dartmoor, which is next to where i live!!!!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #643 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 644 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:37:52 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi >Your second option matches the second theory that I proposed -- our >view of the Old Ones is so limited that we do not know whether there >is ever any conflict or difference of opinion among them. But your first >option is not necessary -- there is nothing in any published material >that would preclude the existence of a singular Ultimate Power who >is superior to the Old Ones, which is what I meant to suggest for my >first theory. True enough. I just don't see the Old Ones (or their "Immortal") active enough in Mystara to make any single morality obvious and definite. There may be an ultimate morality, but if it is enforced in such a subtle and round-about manner, it would play little impact on the world. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:20:31 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone >Hmmmn. . .interesting. Could you say why you think they (shadowelves) are like >Melneboneans? Because I've never seen a similarity (<----note that isn't to >say they *aren't* like Melneboneans; I may have missed similarities that >you caught.) It was not so much the fact they were like Melneboneans, but the fact that when I was ready to add them to my game, GAZ 13(?) was not out yet. Ever since, thats how I've played them. Makes for an interesting setting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:20:32 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. > Very nice! Magic comes from energy...what more need be said? Or perhaps, > magic comes from the spheres in general...whether matter, entropy, energy... > > This explains both clerical and magical...and perhaps even mystic... > What if spells use the energy from the sphere that is associated with the elemental power. For example a stonewall spell would tap into the Sphere of Matter, or a fireball spell would tap into the Sphere of Energy. And this would not be hard to figure out if you use the spell brakedown that an elementalist mage uses. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:22:23 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Hi, folks! I've been "lurking" here on the MML for a while, but I thought I'd finally speak up. (I hope this goes through OK, I've never posted to an mpgn list before.... ;-D) With all this talk about why Alphatian or Glantrian mages don't Wish their kids into being magic-capable, I came up with a nasty theory, based on the long-established game idea that Wishes always take the easiest path. Why should the spell bother to create something afresh, if the Wish can take short-cuts by stealing that 'something' from somewhere else...? ("Hey, my Ring of Regeneration just vanished!") So, what if the reason mages DON'T Wish for their kids to gain the innate potential to be mages, is because the spell always takes that magic-potential from someone else... specifically, the mage who CASTS the Wish? In other words, the spell does exactly as it's told -- it turns the Wish-recipient (even a halfling like Usamigaras) into a spellcaster -- but in so-doing, renders the Wish-casting mage into a mundaner. Cast from an items such as a ring, it would deprive the nearest mage of spellcasting potential. Cast from a scroll, it would affect the scroll's creator, assuming he/she is alive; if not , it would deprive the nearest mage of power, just like the ring. (This is a great reason NOT to leave Wish-scrolls lying around your lab, BTW. ;-D) What citizen of a magocracy's going to take a chance that THIS might happen to them -- of demoting his or her self to "common" (= scum) status, in helping his/her offspring -- should they fail to word their Wish in a manner that absolutely precludes it...? By this interpretation, magical potential absolutely cannot be created from scratch -- at least, not by mortal Wishes -- but has to be stripped from someone else. An elf so deprived becomes a warrior-elf, a la HW boxed set. A mage loses all spellcasting ability and becomes an NPC, for reasons of unplayability, perhaps retiring to teach magical theory at one of the academies, not unlike a "burned-out" magician from the Shadowrun game. (The Secret Craft of Alchemy might or might not remain available, as it doesn't seem to be spell-oriented; all the others are out, for sure!) A mean-spirited mage might try to phrase the Wish in a way that strips an enemy mage's powers, while bestowing potential on his/her child or ally ... but given the unreliability of Wishes in regards to interpretation, it's a gamble that should backfire more often than not, perhaps draining BOTH the caster and the enemy. Just think of the predicament that an unsuspecting Alphatian would be left in, having cast this Wish and been rendered magically impotent: suddenly his/her "weakling, inadequate" mundaner-child is the one who's a noble, by right! Some revenge by the offspring is definitely on the agenda, for all those years of being told what a disappointment the child was. Meanwhile, the power-bereft parent is desperately using scrolls, magic items, and gimmickry to hide the fact that his/her powers are gone -- one of the reasons this nasty cost of Wishing your kids into mages needn't be generally known -- so rivals and agents of the government don't catch on and turn the ex-mage into a lowly commoner ... or a charred smudge on the tower floor! Even if he/she manages to live long enough for the now-magicker offspring to actually learn to spellcast, a humiliating retirement as a servant in the child's household is probably the best the former mage can expect out of life; otherwise, he/she is gonna be meatcakes. (I'm sure Alphatia's got wonderful ideas of what's a proper punishment, for the treasonous act of impersonating a mage....) :-) BTW, this would also explain how Usamigaras pulled his "trick-the-mage-into-Wishing-me-magical" stunt, WITHOUT said mage turning him into something uglier than an Elder God on a bad hair day, afterwards. ;-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:21:02 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi At 01:20 PM 9/20/98 PDT, you wrote: > > > Western morality also requires a monotheism. For this to work, >either there must be only one Old One, or all of the Old Ones are so >alike in thought and act that there is no effective difference amongst >them (this can also be a theory in, say, Christianity: if you hold that >God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are consubstantial, that is, of equal >"ranking", they are also so alike in thought and act that there is no >competition amongst them, unlike in the Greek Pantheon, where there is >constant infighting). An absolute morality requires this, for if the >ultimate powers sqaubble, or at the very least respectfully disagree, >then each faction would have it's own morality, and since each morality >is headed by an ultiamte power, it must be "true", regardless if it >contradicts another "true" morality. > Or maybe morality is such a minor issue that they pretty much all agree on a set definition. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:53:35 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >>Ive heard in an old psionics debate on the MMl (a topic that i stir up >every >>so often :) that a good reason that psionics is rare on Mystara is >because >>the Men in Black from Alphatia stamp it out as been a threat to their >>magical empire (Personally, as it is often said that magic and IIRC, there's speculation in the CPsH that cerebral parasites were created by a ultra-powerful nation of super-mages, to suppress psionics on their world, lest it pose a competitor for "true" magic. Sound like anyone we know...? If Alphatia DID create those little suckers, then Mystara's whole population could be unknowingly infested by c.p.s; and a would-be wild talent or psionicist would never be able to build up the PSPs, to do anything with his/her powers. If you like this idea, but still want to allow wallara psionicists in your campaign, then chameleon-men might be immune to these parasites as a racial ability. Other psionic characters would have to get Cured of their infestation and then study under a wallara teacher, to learn to use mind-powers ... and be REALLY careful not to contract a case of the c.p.s, again. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:12:58 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > Someone who's parents may have been horribly treated slaves or >members of >the almost equally badly treated servant class (I.E. the bulk of society), >well, they might have (nacient) other ideas about how non-wonderful this >system is. That's why you have to take them while they're young (before >their attitudes take hold). Then you can convince them that this system is >the best of all possible worlds. It might be prudent -- especially given the difficulty of learning magic in the HW -- for Alphatians to treat commoners who produce magically-adept children somewhat better than they'd treat the rest of the mundane population. After all, those couples who possess the right genetic "match" should be encouraged to breed more mages ... not robbed of their firstborn mage-child, and then left to blame each other and separate! There may well be a similar program imposed upon commoners of Alphatia to what Psi-Corps instated, with their systematic breeding of telepaths on "Babylon 5": since mundaners have no rights in most Alphatian kingdoms, their marital pairings could be totally dictated by the Empire's drive to produce magically-capable offspring. I can see Alphatian officials giving little "perks" to mundaners who've got mages among their offspring, at least so long as they remain together and aren't too old to bear more kids. Nothing that'd make them "forget their place" or try to undermind their childrens' indoctrination in pro-magicker attitudes; but the sorts of petty favors -- lower taxes, extra rations, slightly better jobs -- that the Chinese government provides to one-child couples. Conversely, couples who produced too many mundane offspring (perhaps in hopes of birthing a mage, and getting in on such cushy benefits) might be forced to separate by eugenicist mage-officials. The fact that marriage isn't a respected institution in Alphatia might well have resulted from their frequent need to separate and re-pair commoners who've failed to procreate mages. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:02:56 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment In a message dated 98-09-19 07:30:43 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << I must say that the power of Enchantment spells here seem to be discarded. IMO Enchantment is perhaps the most powerful school of magic, assuming that the spells are actually capable of affecting the target (not much use against undead, for example).>> i tend to try to avoid comparing spell schools. instead i go by each individual spell and how it would affect a target. <> exactly...well kind of. my point is that tech makes up for the lack of magic. in a tech vs. magic war both sides are going to be facing a mysterious entity. a mage turning a jeep into a large french pastry is awe inspiring and scary to the techies. but the techies' tools are as equally awe inspiring/scary. imagine the mystaran forces experiencing an arty barrage, a helicopter gunship, or even a tank. and the terror/awe would be intensified as these techno weapons would be used enmass. in battle, these tech forces are going to take a large toll from the mystaran rank and file. casualties are going to be high for the mystarans. whole armies may be decimated to the point the survivors desert or surrender. even the mighty mages are going to be of limited effectiveness. there just aren't enough of them to take on the whole tech invasion force. the mages and their comrade adventurers may nip and chew at parts of the techy warmachine but i doubt they will be able to reverse the fortunes of war. eventually they are going to succomb to the techies. each techy trooper has the capability to kill a pc/npc far exceding their own percieved level. its like the battle of agincourt. here was an army oh high level warriors being defeated by lower rung fighters thanks to their ability to outrange the knights. imo, the techno troops would have the range and have the power. the key is adaptation. imo the fact that each individual tech trooper is so potentially powerful (plus the heavy weapons), adaption would be difficult for the mystarans. mage attacks may suceed. but they are not always going to suceed. to say a PC is going to suceed because they are PCs is foolhardy...and bad gaming. if there are few risks to the pcs then what is the use of adventuring. PCs die in adventures. that's part of the game. being heroes doesn't make them immune from the grim reaper. death is part of life and an adventurer's life places them in harm's way more often than not. in the case of tech vs. magic, a failed attack spells potential death for the mage. the power potential for even a lowly tech infantryman has to be considered. then there is the added dimension of other combatants. the mage may gut a tank, but is it worth it if his minor victory is followed by his own death by other tech weapons and troops nearby. that is where attrition comes in. tech troops, pilots, and even tankers can be trained in bulk and a whole lot faster than a mage can be trained. i am not out to bash mystara and its magic. in fact, my staunch stance on technology overriding magic is based to save the setting. imo technology would destroy mystara as we know it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:03:08 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror In a message dated 98-09-19 07:30:43 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >The problem here is that IRL a Ghost requires a magic item to be hit. While >a sword enchanted by a Mage (Excaliber for example) would hit that ghost- a >solid normal object (no matter the speed it travels) could not. >A Vampire- your projectile will pass straight through, while a +1 sword >impacts solidly with it. >Wraithform is like the ghost above. Remember also that the "explosive >charge" has to hit something to explode, thus there is no argument that the >explosion itself is magical as it must first impact to do so. << I must say that in every film where fantasy and tech mix it up, the werewolves, ghosts and vampires are still immune to bullets...>> not to forget the films where the hero attacks the werewolf/vampire/etc with the fantasy tactics. the attack has no affect and the werewolf/vampire/etc. chastises the hero for placing too much faith on "old wives tales". as for enchanted attacks in films, Interveiw with a Vampire (an ex-girlfriend wanted to see it) has fire being used to burn the vampires to death. brad pitt's character even kills off a couple of his fellow vamps with a scythe. in other films, i have seen fire also used. as for scoring a palpable hit on a vampire, enchanted items are not really needed according to Hollywood. the tried and true wooden stake is not enchanted. neither are animal horns (Lost Boys) and wrought iron (Vampire Memoires). then there are the various improvised wooden stakes created from broken boards, table legs, spears, broken stair bannisters, and i even saw a broken pool cue used once. for werewolves, the selection is limited. American Werewolf in London had the werewolf shot to death. his undead buddy and subsequent victems even appearing to urge him into committing suicide. i cannot remember how the opening werewolf was killed. i want to say the villagers shot him with a shotgun. Hollywood adheres to the silver aspect against werebeasts. In the first Howling, silver was the means to kill the werewolves. later editions played it a bit more loosely with normal bullets being effective. steven king's Silver Bullet had the werewolf being killed via a silver bullet. however, the werewolf also lost an eye thanks to a bottlerocket. i don't recall any of the hunting parties actually shooting at the werewolf much less hitting it. so the silver bullet may have not even been needed. ghosts are a problem. most movies seem content to have the stars free the beliguered souls so they can move on and rest in piece. malevolent ghosts are usually dealt with via ceremony or by setting things right. there's a goodly bit of leeway with hollywood and its veiws of vamps and werebeasts. the legends surrounding these creatures are worldwide and their attributes vary from culture to culture. even the classic B. Stroker Dracula is toned down to acceptable christian standards. of course the historical, Vlad Drakula is apparent within the Count's persona. myself, i designate vamp slaying tools like wooden stakes as being blessed by a cleric or being cut from trees from a sacred grove. otherwise, every spear thrust spear or arrow becomes a potential wooden stake. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:11:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > > So, what if the reason mages DON'T Wish for their kids to gain the innate > potential to be mages, is because the spell always takes that > magic-potential from someone else... specifically, the mage who CASTS the > Wish? > A good argument, but IMO one flaw, and one potential for really bad abuse: 1) a carefully worded wish could/probably should be able to avoid this problem. One possibility would then be wording the wish so that it wouldn't steal the magic ability of the caster, but instead from someone else. Perhaps a specific someone. 2) Which leads to the potential for abuse: casting the Wish to strip someone else (obviously someone one doesn't like) of the power to cast spells, making them a "mundane" against their will. I'd just rule that right out. Wishes are not omnipotent (thankfully. Well, one variety of wish seems effectively omnipotent, but only one dude I know of can bestow such wishes*). Letting folks (players, or whoever) mess around too easily with NPCs in such a fashion would be bad news, IMO. *well, actually 2 to several, but only one dude who's been described in D&D terms, a long time ago. . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:28:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-21 01:32:01 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > A good argument, but IMO one flaw, and one potential for really bad abuse: > > 1) a carefully worded wish could/probably should be able to avoid this > problem. One possibility would then be wording the wish so that it wouldn't > steal the magic ability of the caster, but instead from someone else. > Perhaps a specific someone. > > 2) Which leads to the potential for abuse: casting the Wish to strip > someone else (obviously someone one doesn't like) of the power to cast > spells, making them a "mundane" against their will. In regard to stripping somebody of magical ability -- keep in mind that the 5th level spell "Feeblemind" already does that rather effectively, although it does allow a saving throw. On the other hand, there must be a large number of mundaners with magical talent who never were trained to use it, with the result that they are available as sources of magical talent for nobles who lack magical talent. I just had an evil idea in that regard -- maybe the first few Alphatian wizards who noticed that their children had no magical talent did indeed use Wish spells to grant that talent to them. However, that Wish stripped that talent away from some untrained Alphatian commoner, with the effect that ALL of his descendants lacked magical talent to the extent that even a Wish could not grant it to them. If even one of General Torenal's ancestors was victimized in this way, then that might explain why none of his children, even those by Eriadna, were able to become wizards. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:20:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. I see Wish as the ultimate mortal-level spell. Wouldn´t limiting the wish mean taking the magic away from Magic? I mean, whats good about magic is that you can do absolutely anything if you have the power to do so. The Aging effect in AD&D isn´t a very good limit either since Alphatians dont have to worry about getting old. Longevity is a wonderful thing over here isn´t it? IMO the best way of limiting the use of the wish spell is simply limiting the number of people who know the spell. Remember that in OD&D you have to be a 36th level mage/cleric with 18 in INT/WIS. There are no 36th level mages in Glantri in AC1000, Rad is 35th IRC. Ofcourse there are plenty of em in Alphatia and quite a few in Thyatis, but not all of these have 18 in their primary ability score. Even fewer know the wish spell. Since the spell is so increadibly powerful, finding a mage willing to tech you the spell is extremely difficult. So, you would have to do research instead. Finding proper components should also be close to impossible. Anyway, the other ideas of limiting the wish are good too, but personally I like there being people around wielding the ultimate power. (As long as my players don´t get their hands on it.) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:26:34 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1998-09-20 11:21:58 Eastern Daylight Time, > jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > > > Actually, even D&D puts some limits on it: you have to cast all the wishes > > in one week, so a character with only 1 9th level spell (1 Wish per day) > > wouldn't be able to increase any score above 7. > > Of course, once he (or she) has 2 9th level spells, 14 becomes the > > "minimum" score for that munchkin. > > Of course D&D makes that spell unavailable until a mage reaches level 33 -- > at which point he can already cast seven 9th level spells a day. Wasn´t it changed to level 36 in the Cyclopedia? Not that that changes the fact. Anyway, the DM could rule that the Wish spell can be used only once per day. This shouldnt neccesarily mean that ability scores shouldnt be raised above 7. ITOH, youd have to find a group of mages willing to cast the spells together... A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability scores though non-magical means. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:36:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability That's probably the best idea I've heard on the topic thus far. Stop lurking--talk more! :-)) As far as the idea that magic would not be created, but "borrowed"/change form, does this--in your opinion--have something to do with the NoS and magic drainage (i.e., magic as a finite commodity), etc., or was this a problem the Alphatians had on their home world? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:05:55 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment >exactly...well kind of. my point is that tech makes up for the lack of magic. >in a tech vs. magic war both sides are going to be facing a mysterious entity. >a mage turning a jeep into a large french pastry is awe inspiring and scary to >the techies. but the techies' tools are as equally awe inspiring/scary. >imagine the mystaran forces experiencing an arty barrage, a helicopter >gunship, or even a tank. and the terror/awe would be intensified as these >techno weapons would be used enmass. well, the Mystarans have an advantage in that they live in a fantastic world where literally anything could happen. Golems (Hulean Juggernaut?) are not too dissimilar to tanks, and i imagine that if you have tangled with a 300' long Great Wyrm an Apache gunship probably is not incredibly awe inspiring (however powerful it actually is). Artillery would be like a volley of invocation spells. (Incidentally, IMC WotI is going to be a bit like World War 1 (Welcome to a Great War) in terms of carnage on a mass scale. Given the (unrealistic, IMHO) amount of magic fielded by the two sides i could quite easily envisage this!) Not to say the Mystarans are not going to be intimidated by the techies (My lord there appears to be an army of 2000 golems approaching our borders!) but they arent going to be completely shellshocked. On the other hand, i think the techies are probably going to be somewhat overconfident, living in their safe logical world (Ghosts! Pull yourself together private! Ghosts dont exist!), and in terms of culture shock i think they would undoubtably be on the receiving end more than the Mystarans... >in the case of tech vs. magic, a failed attack spells potential death for the >mage. the power potential for even a lowly tech infantryman has to be >considered. then there is the added dimension of other combatants. the mage >may gut a tank, but is it worth it if his minor victory is followed by his own >death by other tech weapons and troops nearby. that is where attrition comes >in. tech troops, pilots, and even tankers can be trained in bulk and a whole >lot faster than a mage can be trained. Well, even the Battle of Agincourt may not have happened quite like that in D+D, if the French were level 9 and the English level 1. (Although it has to be said that that in the Middle Ages the English trained with longbows practically from birth, so saying that they are lower rung soldiers may not exactly be valid. Lower class, maybe :) >i am not out to bash mystara and its magic. in fact, my staunch stance on >technology overriding magic is based to save the setting. imo technology would >destroy mystara as we know it. Oh, I'm in agreement there. Originally this debate started because of the incipient threat of technology being introduced to Mystara, something which seemed to get a fairly violent anti reaction from certain people (James!). I'm not really supportive myself of tech, being fully appreciative that Mystara will never be the same again, but the issue of magic vs technology has appeared in my games from time to time in a limited fashion, so I find the subject quite interesting! Hence the ranting screeds :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:51:07 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >>Even if you consider >> Nyx "evil" because of her goals, I still say she does not fit with >> Entropy, which wants the destruction of all life. Nyx does not want to >> destroy life but to change it (we'll just ignore the fact that you have >> to DIE to get that way:). Undead are simply another form of life >> (unlife??). >> >Nyx wants to create a world of darkness (no, not *that* WoD; I mearly mean >a world without light), and a world where the (un)dead dominate. A world >devoid of life. From Nyx perspective undead are simply another form of >life, as you put it, and a better form at that. >However, she's wrong*: undead are beings of "negative energy" and trying >to create a universe dominated by them (displacing "real" life) is simply >bad karma. My guess would be that the darker members of the Entropy Sphere invited Nyx to ascend to Immortality in their company -- despite the fact that she's honestly well-meaning -- because they were thinking a little farther ahead than she was. To Nyx, converting all life to unlife is as far as her plans extend; for the reasons already mentioned, she believes that's a "good" outcome in the short term, because the undead are more enduring, as individuals, than living creatures. What Nyx forgets -- and what evil Entropics such as Thanatos remember, which is why they'd welcomed her into their Sphere in the first place -- is that, while undead might last for a long time, they can't ever reproduce themselves once the living have all been "brought over" into undeath. Undead are like viruses, in their method of replication; they NEED the living in order to increase their numbers, just as a virus can only make copies of itself when it infests a living cell! If Nyx were to convert the last living sentient to an undead creature, that's all she wrote: there'd NEVER be another new sentient being, because the undead can't bear offspring biologically. And, once there's no new sentients coming into the universe, their final extinction is inevitable, because even as unaging undead, chance attrition (accidents, infighting, murder, suicide) would continue to affect them. No matter how hard Nyx might try to keep her "children" safe and sound, at that stage, even one "true" death every hundred million years would do in the whole universe, eventually! That's the future -- or lack thereof -- which Nyx hasn't projected her designs far enough beyond her immediate goals, to anticipate ... and which Thanatos and his cronies must've thought would be a barrel of laughs, seeing this do-gooding ditz fight for something that means the inevitable destruction of all sentients, in the misguided belief that she's "saving" them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:54:34 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror >as for scoring a palpable hit on a vampire, enchanted items are not really >needed according to Hollywood. the tried and true wooden stake is not >enchanted. neither are animal horns (Lost Boys) and wrought iron (Vampire >Memoires). then there are the various improvised wooden stakes created from >broken boards, table legs, spears, broken stair bannisters, and i even saw a >broken pool cue used once. Well, in the Lost Boys arrows count as stakes. On the other hand, nonmagical stakes work in D+D. Wrought iron (cold iron) and silver work on demons and such. There are cases in xD+D where nonmagical stakes, silver, cold iron, red steel etc. will work. Wraithform (and prot from normal missiles) is not one of them. (The Lost Boys - sheesh. Come back Hammer, all is forgiven... :) >myself, i designate vamp slaying tools like wooden stakes as being blessed by >a cleric or being cut from trees from a sacred grove. otherwise, every spear >thrust spear or arrow becomes a potential wooden stake. never really had any dispute as to what counted as a stake. A natural piece of unworked wood, i guess, ie no spear, no arrow, just a spike. :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:00:18 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > >> >> So, what if the reason mages DON'T Wish for their kids to gain the innate >> potential to be mages, is because the spell always takes that >> magic-potential from someone else... specifically, the mage who CASTS the >> Wish? >> >A good argument, but IMO one flaw, and one potential for really bad abuse: > >1) a carefully worded wish could/probably should be able to avoid this >problem. One possibility would then be wording the wish so that it wouldn't >steal the magic ability of the caster, but instead from someone else. >Perhaps a specific someone. > >2) Which leads to the potential for abuse: casting the Wish to strip >someone else (obviously someone one doesn't like) of the power to cast >spells, making them a "mundane" against their will. That's why I included the corollary about how the vast majority of mages wouldn't know about this "side effect", until it's too late. Wishing to give your kid magic, the first time -- not knowing it's going to mess up your own powers, or that you SHOULD specify where the magical potential's coming from -- leaves you helpless to cast more Wishes and try it again! Eriadna would be aware of the danger and leave her kids as is, for that reason, but the Imperial household may well have kept it a state secret; you never know when a dying Emperor might become desperate enough to imbue a mundane heir with his own power, yet keep on feigning magehood so as not to be deposed before that heir is established as a spellcaster. For the rest of Alphatia, they wouldn't know about the Wish's exact effect until it's too late. Maybe a few mages in every Alphatian generation commit this blunder, and they wind up killed by rivals or their own resentful offspring, each of whom has motive (i.e. pretending they've defeated a powerful foe, for the one; hiding the fact they were born as mere mundaners, for the other) to keep quiet about the blunderer's magic-less state at the time of his/her death. As for deliberately stripping one's enemy of the power to cast spells, that's pretty much the same as Wishing your enemy dead: it's the kind of thing that's all but guaranteed to make the Wish "botch", functioning in a way you don't expect it to -- including stripping magic from you AND the target. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #644 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 645 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions [MYSTARA] - The New Second Shadow Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:22:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > > I see Wish as the ultimate mortal-level spell. Wouldn´t limiting the wish > mean taking the magic away from Magic? I mean, whats good about magic is > that you can do absolutely anything if you have the power to do so. > A wish is *not* omnipotent. You can't wish for anything and recieve it. For example: Wish for your own private planet -- not possible Wish that you are aknowledged "Emperor of the Multiverse" with full autocratic powers over everything -- not possible. Wish that your most fearsome nemisis does not exist -- no to that one. (and note, for brevity, I am not carefully wording the above, so please don't come back with that argument unless you want several pages of legalese.) You can do a lot with a wish, but not everything. The great beauty of the Wish spell is its flexibility. But it is still a 9th level spell (thus Armageddon is right out). In fact, as a general rule of thumb, a Wish can duplicate the effects of any spell of 8th level or lower. . . .but not 9th level spells. Why? Because it is flexible, but *limited*. > > Anyway, the other ideas of limiting the wish are good too, but personally > I like there being people around wielding the ultimate power. (As long as > my players don´t get their hands on it.) > Can these people who do have the Wish use it to aquire Immortality without going through the usual hoops? I would rule "no", thus limiting the power of the Wish. Would you rule "yes?" How about a carefully worded wish to become a 36th level Immortal/Ruling Hierarch? Again, I would say no myself. How about a Wish destroying or fundimentally changing the Multiverse? Hate to beat this up, but once you recognize something that *cannot* be done via Wish, you have established a limit. Then the only question is where to draw the line. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:16:35 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >That's probably the best idea I've heard on the topic thus far. Stop >lurking--talk more! :-)) I intend to. Gosh, it's sunny out here! 8-) ***shades eyes, having hidden under her rock much too long*** >As far as the idea that magic would not be created, but >"borrowed"/change form, does this--in your opinion--have something to do >with the NoS and magic drainage (i.e., magic as a finite commodity), >etc., or was this a problem the Alphatians had on their home world? Never crossed my mind, to be honest! I was just going by the ol' DM's safety net for controlling Wishes, that they take the easy way out whenever they can ... that, and the finale of the lame sequal to "The Fly", where Brundle Jr. becomes human again by transferring all of his fly genes to the villain. :-) My guess is that it would've been a problem on the Alphatian homeworld, too. It's not really having an effect on whether magic is available, just on two individuals' ability to manipulate an energy that might, or might not, be there to use. One other thing that occurred to me, about the Alphatians' declining magical ability: While interbreeding with non-mages might be one factor in their loss of mage "genes", there's an alternative explanation for that sort of trend. Maybe the Alphatian homeworld was SO magic-rich, that any infants conceived, who WEREN'T magically-gifted, just plumb didn't survive (!); they'd die from ambient magical energies, and be miscarried, before their mothers even knew they'd been pregnant. Once the Alphatians had found their way to a less hyper-magical world, those same infants who'd've never been born on their planet of origin could be carried to term, and what seemed like an inexplicable lapse of the new generation's magic ability was really only an increase in "mundaner" survivorship. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:18:19 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic >Such a haughtiness wil cause the death of many proud tankers and elite >infantry soldiers. :-) > >The point is: When their neighbours are unable to grasp the Ethengarian way >of life non-Mystarans would not be able to likewise. After some weeks the >tanker crews will learn not to leave their vessel when being on the Sea of >Grass (not that they are completely safe inside). well the Russians suffered in Afghanistan :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:28:52 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > My guess would be that the darker members of the Entropy Sphere invited Nyx > to ascend to Immortality in their company -- despite the fact that she's Well, considering Nyx became hierarch of Entropy, I figure they didn't expect that. But Nyx is actually one of the oldest Immortals, anyway. So: > would be a barrel of laughs, seeing this do-gooding ditz fight for > something that means the inevitable destruction of all sentients, in the > misguided belief that she's "saving" them. This statement is not valid. Remember, Thanatos was BELOW Nyx in power for Millenia before WoTI. Nyx isn't a ditz, she's remarkably intelligent, and I'm sure that she'd like to have words with you ;) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:27:21 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere > In the Forgotten Realms, you have Mr. Greenwood write a story about >you. :) Actually, in the Realms, you spend a passionate night with Mystra and please her really much, or else be her child. She then makes you her Chosen and you are as good as Immortal :) Sorry, couldn's pass up. I'm a fan of the Realms, but that doesn't mean I can't make fun of it :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:00:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > Actually, in the Realms, you spend a passionate night with Mystra and > please her really much, or else be her child. She then makes you her > Chosen and you are as good as Immortal :) Wow.. Mystra is easy to please. Even Ixion needs Valerias :) Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:53:51 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability At 02:16 PM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >One other thing that occurred to me, about the Alphatians' declining >magical ability: While interbreeding with non-mages might be one factor in >their loss of mage "genes", there's an alternative explanation for that >sort of trend. Maybe the Alphatian homeworld was SO magic-rich, that any >infants conceived, who WEREN'T magically-gifted, just plumb didn't survive >(!); they'd die from ambient magical energies, and be miscarried, before >their mothers even knew they'd been pregnant. Once the Alphatians had >found their way to a less hyper-magical world, those same infants who'd've >never been born on their planet of origin could be carried to term, and >what seemed like an inexplicable lapse of the new generation's magic >ability was really only an increase in "mundaner" survivorship. I had a similar idea, but instead, the Alpatian homeworld was so magic-rich that even those who would be considered 'mundaners' on Mystara, could use it there. Once those magic-using 'mundaners' arrived on Mystara, they either feigned the ability to use magic still, or perhaps the fact that they had used magic so long allowed them to use magic even on Mystara. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:21:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions A quick couple of questions to those of you with PWAI or II: 1.) How does it explain the proces of rebuilding Glantri City (from the 1,000-Wizards' bombardment--WotI p. 90)? G:KoM doesn't even mention it, and PWAIII gives no details. 2.) When, and under what circumstances did Catherine d'Amberville give up her position as Grand Master of the Great School (WotI p. 91) in favour of Harald Haaskinz? Is this when she went to Thyatis? How did Harald get the job? Just cleaning up, Thanks, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:43:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions > > 1.) How does it explain the proces of rebuilding Glantri City (from the > 1,000-Wizards' bombardment--WotI p. 90)? G:KoM doesn't even mention it, > and PWAIII gives no details. > It doesn't mention it, anywhere. It is as if the event never occured. Sloppy editing, I suppose. I myself don't know the answer to the second question, so I won't try to answer it. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:43:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions > > 1.) How does it explain the proces of rebuilding Glantri City (from the > 1,000-Wizards' bombardment--WotI p. 90)? G:KoM doesn't even mention it, > and PWAIII gives no details. > It doesn't mention it, anywhere. It is as if the event never occured. Sloppy editing, I suppose. I myself don't know the answer to the second question, so I won't try to answer it. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:04:41 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - The New Second Shadow Hi everybody. As you may know I'm in charge of the Shadow Elves (SE) for the Net-Almanac. According to the Net-Almanac, in the last months of AC 1015 the SE suffered the invasion of the Schattenalfen. That invasion was the final part of a big plot set up by Atzanteotl. A keypoint in that plot was the control of Atzanteotl on the SE spymaster Xatapechtli, and thus on the whole Second Shadow (or at least on the covert branch). After that war the SE have to rebuild their Spy Network. The following article is a preview about the New Second Shadow. Important note: we would like to change the names of the New Second Shadow and its branches (those marked by _ _) into something more elvish. Suggestions are welcomed, as well as general opinions. Special thanks to Herve Musseau for proofreading and to the "Star Wars - Rebel Alliance Sourcebook" for inspiration. - --------------------------------------- The New Second Shadow During the Shadow War, in the latest months of AC 1015, the Shadow Elves realized that their spy network, the Second Shadow, had been infiltrated by followers of Atzanteotl and thus had become completely unreliable. The Spymaster Xatapechtli himself had disappeared. (Note: Xatapechtli is currently in the City of Aengmor, leading the "evil" shadowelf followers of Atzanteotl in the area. The "good" shadow elves ignore this, though they suspect it.) After the war King Telemon decided to rebuild the spy network from scratch, appointing a former spy, X (Note: his/her/its identity will be revealed in the 1016 almanac), as new Spymaster. In a few months X was able to recreate a reliable spy network: the New Second Shadow. The New Second Shadow is divided into three branches, all of which answer directly to the Spymaster. _Analysis_: this is the Second Shadow branch in charge of analyzing and interpreting data acquired by operative agents and other sources. This kind of work is the least adventurous and craved one in all the whole spy business, but it's nevertheless a vital one. Members of Analysis are usually retired operatives, wounded spies that need a period of rest or newly recruited agents that are learning the job, while waiting for an operative assignment. Analysis is the branch of the spy network that houses the largest number of Wanderers (Note: see the AC 1015 Almanac for the new Wanderers policy). Besides its main HQ in the City of the Stars, Analysis maintains an additional office in Rafielton and members of Analysis can also be found in the newly founded shadowelf embassies in the Old World (Note: more about this in 1016 Almanac). Analysis officers often attend diplomatic meetings disguised as aides. _Counter-Intelligence_: usually referred to as simply "Second Shadow", this is the branch of the spy network that every shadow elf knows about. Largely based on the pre-war "legitimate Second Shadow", the main task of this branch is to root out intruders into the shadowelf lands and spy network. Before the invasion of Alfheim this branch was mainly concerned with humanoids and occasional human or dwarven adventurers, then its enemies shifted to Alfheim Avengers and corrupted shadow elves. Though the logistic base is the same as that of the old Second Shadow, training procedures and modus operandi have been largely revised to account for the new tasks and the new enemies this branch has to face. HQ of Counter-Intelligence is in the City of the Stars and its members are rarely seen outside the shadowelf lands. Recruiting requirements and equipment are the same listed in GAZ 13 for the "legitimate" Second Shadow (page 37). _Covert Operation_: this secretive branch, usually known as "Serpent's Eyes" among its members is the one in charge of doing the actual spying, infiltrating foreign lands, spreading rumors among enemy population, sabotaging, assassinating and so on. This branch has suffered heavy losses during the Shadow War with many of its agents defecting to Atzanteotl's forces, and so has to be completely rebuilt. The Spymaster has taken care of selecting the new agents himself, trying to remove the most chaotic attitudes that made them easy preys of Atzanteotl. Serpent Eyes usually are organized into small cells. (Note: more about this later in the Almanac). Members of this branch usually work in foreign lands, but a few of them can also be found in the Shadow Elves' territories, especially in Aengmor, looking for subversives. One of the most important Serpents is Carlisan, Clanmaster of Clan Chossum in Karameikos, and the whole Clan Chossum houses many members of this branch, some of which have even infiltrated the Alfheim Avengers. Recruiting requirements and equipment are the same listed in GAZ 13 for the covert Second Shadow (page 51). - --------------------- ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817 Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:04:03 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions A revision and extension to my remarks: IMO, the mistake was probably made in the initial event (in WotI), though to some degree unavoidable. Something nasty had to start happening to Glantri itself for Rad to decide with reckless abandon that he had to mess around with powers he didn't understand (the doomsday device) again. the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" bombardment was a logical, but probably uncreative, choice. Accepting this event at face value leads to two major problems, unrelated to the "nuking" of Glantri City by 1,000 36th level mages (cities can be rebuilt). The problems would have been: 1) if the major portion of the Council was present over Glantri when Alphatia sunk, then the Wizards would not be in the HW Alphatia, and thus Alphatia would have lost something (which can *never* be allowed to occur); they would have lacked the 1,000 36th level Wizards (having been exiled if they objected to Zandor's plan, or having been over Glantri if they accepted it). Even from my stand point, an Alphatia without the council would have been. . . .OTOH, I guess some nifty "events" centered around devising a new one could have been created. But the 2nd problem would be more serious: 2) If these mages were not transfered to the HW, where would they be? Why, they'd remain in the surface world, over Glantri. Several hundred 36th level mages could certainly have (perhaps with losses) subjigated Glantri and replaced all Glantri's current princes and mages, as well as do other things disruptive to the KW (as the "Spirits" of Atruaghin showed in a shadowy and pathetic way). Rather than engage these problems, which would have been potentially insoluble, the editors probably decided to pretend that the event never occured. So it wasn't so much sloppy editing, more likely it was lack of creativity in designing an apropriate "precipitating event" that would encourage Rad to cycle up the Doomsday Weapon again. Probably the best thing to do then yourself would be to replace the bombardment by the council with some other threatening, potentially distructive occurance that forces Rad into the same position, but doesn't involve the Council directly. Since you're a creative sort, I'm sure you can come up with something suitably malevolent. 8-) > > > > 1.) How does it explain the proces of rebuilding Glantri City (from the > > 1,000-Wizards' bombardment--WotI p. 90)? G:KoM doesn't even mention it, > > and PWAIII gives no details. > > > It doesn't mention it, anywhere. It is as if the event never occured. > Sloppy editing, I suppose. I myself don't know the answer to the second > question, so I won't try to answer it. 8-) > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:14:31 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > Another fix that a DM can use without having to restrict Wish like > that is (and I believe that this is mentioned in various rulebooks with > regard to spell research and magic item creation) is to enforce the time > restraints: if the party's mage is spending three months casting wish, > that's three months the mage is incapacitated. S/he won't be able to do > much adventuring, becuase all of the 9-th level spells are used up, and > I can think of few parties that level who don't want a mage capable of > casting 9-th level spells. The entire party will be out of commision for > those three months (more if more than one player is getting the > upgrades), and that just removes most incentive for play. If the DM > points out that rapid and complete score improval prevents play-time, > then most players would (should) be willing to put up with the immediate > lack of power in exchange for a chance to play the game. > Do you believe? I always assumed that for a 30+ party some adventures would last years literally, with some months without big action. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:46:07 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. >A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability scores >though non-magical means. True. In the Palladium System, one feature I really like is the Physical Skill selection: if you take a physical skill, such as boxing, gymnastics, wrestling, et c., your physical attributes, such as strength, speed, constitution (of course, Palladium uses different names) increase (note: reagrdless of anything else, always take Boxing; you get an extra attack as well as a bunch of extra hit points/SDC). I think D&D should have more skills like that; I can recall one similar: Muscle gives you a bonus to bend bars/lift gates. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:59:56 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >As far as the idea that magic would not be created, but >"borrowed"/change form, does this--in your opinion--have something to do >with the NoS and magic drainage (i.e., magic as a finite commodity), >etc., or was this a problem the Alphatians had on their home world? According to WotI, everyone in Old Alphatia has magic abilities, and it says that they are all at least 1st level mages. In M1, though, that doesn't seem to be the case, as of the four kingdoms, only one is a magocracy; the others include a theocracy ruled by paladins, a republic ruled by theives, er, "elder statesmen": "They don't buy my vote, just access to my vote." (sound familiar?), and one ruled by theives, er, merchants (Hmmm...once upon a time, Alphatia wasn't ruled by mages, it was ruled by "item reallocators"). Of course, what WotI may have meant was that everyone has the potential to become a mage, but in Old Alphatia, magic-use for the most part does not confer special status, except perhaps in Gammaraud. Here's another theory on Alphatian magic degradation: the use of zzonga fruit. The inhabitants of Pleasure Island have the potential to be mages (from WotI), but the use of the fruit obviously inhibits any desire. What if the strain in Old Alphatia is the original, pure variety, and the type used on Mystara has become much more potent over the years, either through evolution/mutation, or as a side effect by a deliberate attempt to make a more potent strain. Snuff, marijuana, and other drugs were used for centuries/millenia in the RW before anyone realized the damage they do to the brain (I'm thinking of when they used mercury to clean hats, for example). What if the various magically-enhanced drugs the Alphatians use are gradually damaging their genes, inhibiting magic in both the users, and their distant descendants? Perhaps all of the options mentioned are the cause; their aggregation in the Alphatian system reduces magical ability. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:09:01 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere >Actually, in the Realms, you spend a passionate night with Mystra and please her really much, or else be her child. She then makes you her Chosen and you are as good as Immortal :) > >Sorry, couldn's pass up. I'm a fan of the Realms, but that doesn't mean I can't make fun of it :) You know, judging how many Chosen or Chosen-level people there are running around FR, Mystra (hmmm...did Greenwood decide on Mystara's name?) must be done too...particular. And what are the women supposed to do, unless Mystra is REALLY none too...particular. Since you're a fan of FR, is there any other way in that setting to get to Immortal level power? I must confess, the only good (relatively speaking) I saw in FR was Zhentil Keep, and I hear they destroyed that, so... "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:21:09 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > I just thought I should tell you all that I went to a local gaming convention > this > weekend, where one of the people I encountered in the dealer's room was none > other than Ann Dupuis. While she did not explicitly give me any messages for > this list, I am sure that she would not object to me greeting this list on her > behalf. She did tell me, however, that she is very grateful to the person who > forwards her the Mystara almanacs when they come out -- she definitely > still holds fond memories of the role she had in the development of that game > world. Cool! So what is she like? ;) Did she consider getting back on the list? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:26:22 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > >> My guess would be that the darker members of the Entropy Sphere invited Nyx >> to ascend to Immortality in their company -- despite the fact that she's > >Well, considering Nyx became hierarch of Entropy, I figure they didn't >expect that. No, they probably didn't! With the motivation of her "cause" to drive her onward, Nyx turned out to be a lot tougher than they'd bargained for. ;-) >But Nyx is actually one of the oldest Immortals, anyway. One of the oldest Entropics of which we KNOW. There could have been plenty we don't know about, who reigned back when most Immortals had never lived a mortal life. Such beings might have since become Old Ones, departed for other universes, been demoted and lost their followings, or even (since Entropy's gotta be a REAL downer of a philosophy, to believe in! ;-D) dispersed themselves in a manic-depressive episode. Nyx is old, but probably not THAT old. Also, if the published material for the post-Blackmoor era is any indication, the top position in Entropy seems to change hands a LOT more than that of any of the other Spheres. I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of the super-ancient Entropics have gotten a turn at being Top Banana for their Sphere. >> would be a barrel of laughs, seeing this do-gooding ditz fight for >> something that means the inevitable destruction of all sentients, in the >> misguided belief that she's "saving" them. > >Remember, Thanatos was BELOW Nyx in power for Millenia before WoTI. Nyx >isn't a ditz, she's remarkably intelligent Did I say that I, personally, thought Nyx was a ditz...? No, I said that Thanatos and others Entropics of a similar mindset would THINK she was, for actually wanting to preserve life (of a kind) instead of to extinguish and/or mess around with it. Also, the fact that Thanatos was subordinate to Nyx needn't stop him from disparaging her behind her back; haven't you ever thought nasty things about someone who's in a position of greater authority...? > and I'm sure that she'd like to have words with you ;) Hey, you're the one who brought up the subject of the lady's age! ;-D *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:23:28 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > > > >A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability > scores > >though non-magical means. > I'd have no problem with characters raising "mediocre" or "poor" ability scores through *creative* non-magical means, but once they start getting up there, IMO it should be very hard if not borderline impossible to raise them significantly/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:34:19 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. I have an idea on why various powerful mages don't use Wish to either imbue their less "talented" spawn with the gift, or raise their ability scores to the max. In a nutshell, they don't know they can do it, and are scared to test. NPC mages are not like PCs in one important respect: they don't have a rulebook that lets them know exactly, with mathematical precision, what X leads to, and how exactly one can respond. Virtually no mage on Mystara even has the capability of casting Wish, and even fewer have it. This is not the sort of spell that you're going to want to give out, even to a trusted apprentice, because this is the sort of power that can turn allies into enemies. If yo get this spell from your master, it's probably on his/her death-bed, with a few mutterings about "...wording...the WORDING...agggh!" (unless you are responsible for this conversation, in which case it goes something like this: "yeah...just Wish for every single possible threat to instantly and irrevocably die...agggh!"), or perhaps found in a scroll when you clean out the old geezer's tower. More than likely, you stumbled upon this spell in the course of some hideously arcane research. In any event, no one is around to tell you exactly how Wish works; all you know is that there is some ultimate arbitriter (ie, the DM), and if you don't word your wish very carefully, and even then, for a lot of wishes, you're lucky if nothing happens. If you're unlucky, well, plastic surgery can do wonders these days. Think back to your first encounter with wishes: it was most likely through a Djinn or Efreet, neither of whom are considered forthright with pertinent information :). They're only going to give you three wishes, so sure, you going wish for increased strength (every mage dreams of being able to beat the party's barbarin in an armwrestling contest), but unless it's two or less, nothing is going to happen, and your f(r)iendly neighborhood jinn isn't going to voluteer that, yes, wishes can increase scores, but you need a lot more. The mage will (hopefully) walk away from this situation assuming that wishes just can't increase abilites. There could be a similar situation wish imbuing magical ability. Okay, once you can cast wish, you have enough wishes to make it work. EXCEPT: you a) think that wishes don't raise scores & b) know full well that experimentation with wishing is generally a very bad idea, to be used only under desperation. These two factors combine to prevent almost any mage who can even cast wish from doing so to raise his/her scores. Now, your players will undoubtably want to argue over letting them raise scores. You don't need to use any random raising/lowering or other bad effects to convince them to use it in moderation: just use the poison arguement: if the players want access to augmentation, then the NPCs get it too. And there are a lot of evil high mages/priests out there... "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #645 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 646 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:00:45 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > dispersed themselves in a manic-depressive episode. Nyx is old, but > probably not THAT old. Well, she's mentioned as the reigning hierarch of Entropy in the GB, so that's worth something :) > to Nyx needn't stop him from disparaging her behind her back; haven't you > ever thought nasty things about someone who's in a position of greater > authority...? Either way, I doubt Thanatos considers her any more of a ditz than he thinks of anyone else. > Hey, you're the one who brought up the subject of the lady's age! ;-D Oops... Hi Nyx! Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:08:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality "She [Nyx] is also fond of creatures of the night, _especially_ undead creatures. _Most_ of her personal followers are undead...She simply wants to change the multiverse to a condition...where her own favorite races, the undead creatures, would _dominate_..." [WotI (italics mine)] Absolutely, she wants undead to dominate, but this sounds to me like there would be other "creature of the night" as well, not just neg. energy beings. People would cease to exist, but all life would not end. (We're here but not the dinosaurs, and life still goes on;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:24:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability You know, I really like that explanation, Sharon; it makes a lot of sense. A magic-rich world like Old Alphatia would certainly have been SO magical that it "penetrated" everything in that world's environment. It would just be an unmentioned fact of life (except maybe in a magical university:), like how we seldom speak of nitrogen, O2, CO2 unless we're in a chemistry, biology (etc.) class, although they are just a fact of everyday life. A defect could mask itself in that kind of favourable environment. You wouldn't "see" non-magical Alphatians there, like you said, because they die, are miscarried, etc. A RL analogy to this (albeit maybe a not so good one:) would be that you do not see that someone limps if they are swimming, but it is there nonetheless. Sorry if that made no sense at all :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:02:26 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability > > The description left out one important detail: did Usamigaras >actually become a mage, or did he become a Hin Master? Ratlings aren't >entirely without magical abilities. > >From what I understand, Usamigaras received mage abilities - WotI was published after Gaz 8 (Five Shires), so theoretically they should have noted that he became a master if he had actually done so. Personally, the mage idea sounds cool because it's more unique (for a ratling), and there weren't any crucibles of blackflame kicking around. :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:36:29 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1998-09-20 17:11:20 Eastern Daylight Time, > dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes: > > > Western morality also requires a monotheism. For this to work, > > either there must be only one Old One, or all of the Old Ones are so > > alike in thought and act that there is no effective difference amongst > > them > > Your second option matches the second theory that I proposed -- our > view of the Old Ones is so limited that we do not know whether there > is ever any conflict or difference of opinion among them. But your first > option is not necessary -- there is nothing in any published material > that would preclude the existence of a singular Ultimate Power who > is superior to the Old Ones, which is what I meant to suggest for my > first theory. IMO, the Old Ones arent really of any importance since noone knows anythging about them. Ixion and Thanatos are listed as ultimate powers in the HW boxed set. So Ixion would be the ultimate good? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:20:04 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability But any wish that is directed at someone else causes that someone to recieve a saving throw, and knowledge of who cast the spell! James Ruhland wrote: > > > > > > So, what if the reason mages DON'T Wish for their kids to gain the innate > > potential to be mages, is because the spell always takes that > > magic-potential from someone else... specifically, the mage who CASTS the > > Wish? > > > A good argument, but IMO one flaw, and one potential for really bad abuse: > > 1) a carefully worded wish could/probably should be able to avoid this > problem. One possibility would then be wording the wish so that it wouldn't > steal the magic ability of the caster, but instead from someone else. > Perhaps a specific someone. > > 2) Which leads to the potential for abuse: casting the Wish to strip > someone else (obviously someone one doesn't like) of the power to cast > spells, making them a "mundane" against their will. > > I'd just rule that right out. Wishes are not omnipotent (thankfully. Well, > one variety of wish seems effectively omnipotent, but only one dude I know > of can bestow such wishes*). Letting folks (players, or whoever) mess > around too easily with NPCs in such a fashion would be bad news, IMO. > > *well, actually 2 to several, but only one dude who's been described in D&D > terms, a long time ago. . . . > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:18:36 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability I have always ruled (as per the "First Law of Magic") that wishes cannot create matter, that items are always taken from somewhere else. It would only be a slight further step to rule that stat points are taken from "somewhere" else. And if a mage is sapping the power of another mage, for whatever reason, he would surely give some consideration to possible retaliation. I think it is an excellent idea! Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > > Hi, folks! I've been "lurking" here on the MML for a while, but I thought > I'd finally speak up. > > (I hope this goes through OK, I've never posted to an mpgn list before.... ;-D) > > With all this talk about why Alphatian or Glantrian mages don't Wish their > kids into being magic-capable, I came up with a nasty theory, based on the > long-established game idea that Wishes always take the easiest path. Why > should the spell bother to create something afresh, if the Wish can take > short-cuts by stealing that 'something' from somewhere else...? ("Hey, my > Ring of Regeneration just vanished!") > > So, what if the reason mages DON'T Wish for their kids to gain the innate > potential to be mages, is because the spell always takes that > magic-potential from someone else... specifically, the mage who CASTS the > Wish? In other words, the spell does exactly as it's told -- it turns the > Wish-recipient (even a halfling like Usamigaras) into a spellcaster -- but > in so-doing, renders the Wish-casting mage into a mundaner. Cast from an > items such as a ring, it would deprive the nearest mage of spellcasting > potential. Cast from a scroll, it would affect the scroll's creator, > assuming he/she is alive; if not , it would deprive the nearest mage of > power, just like the ring. (This is a great reason NOT to leave > Wish-scrolls lying around your lab, BTW. ;-D) What citizen of a > magocracy's going to take a chance that THIS might happen to them -- of > demoting his or her self to "common" (= scum) status, in helping his/her > offspring -- should they fail to word their Wish in a manner that > absolutely precludes it...? > > By this interpretation, magical potential absolutely cannot be created from > scratch -- at least, not by mortal Wishes -- but has to be stripped from > someone else. An elf so deprived becomes a warrior-elf, a la HW boxed set. > A mage loses all spellcasting ability and becomes an NPC, for reasons of > unplayability, perhaps retiring to teach magical theory at one of the > academies, not unlike a "burned-out" magician from the Shadowrun game. > (The Secret Craft of Alchemy might or might not remain available, as it > doesn't seem to be spell-oriented; all the others are out, for sure!) A > mean-spirited mage might try to phrase the Wish in a way that strips an > enemy mage's powers, while bestowing potential on his/her child or ally ... > but given the unreliability of Wishes in regards to interpretation, it's a > gamble that should backfire more often than not, perhaps draining BOTH the > caster and the enemy. > > Just think of the predicament that an unsuspecting Alphatian would be left > in, having cast this Wish and been rendered magically impotent: suddenly > his/her "weakling, inadequate" mundaner-child is the one who's a noble, by > right! Some revenge by the offspring is definitely on the agenda, for all > those years of being told what a disappointment the child was. Meanwhile, > the power-bereft parent is desperately using scrolls, magic items, and > gimmickry to hide the fact that his/her powers are gone -- one of the > reasons this nasty cost of Wishing your kids into mages needn't be > generally known -- so rivals and agents of the government don't catch on > and turn the ex-mage into a lowly commoner ... or a charred smudge on the > tower floor! Even if he/she manages to live long enough for the > now-magicker offspring to actually learn to spellcast, a humiliating > retirement as a servant in the child's household is probably the best the > former mage can expect out of life; otherwise, he/she is gonna be > meatcakes. (I'm sure Alphatia's got wonderful ideas of what's a proper > punishment, for the treasonous act of impersonating a mage....) :-) > > BTW, this would also explain how Usamigaras pulled his > "trick-the-mage-into-Wishing-me-magical" stunt, WITHOUT said mage turning > him into something uglier than an Elder God on a bad hair day, afterwards. > ;-) > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:12:03 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > >From what I understand, Usamigaras received mage abilities - WotI was Didn't he recieve mage abilitie4s because of a wish? Or am I completely wrong? Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:54:04 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere Some comments on Nicholas Hudson's mail on Immortality: You have pointed out that the main difference between gods, mystaran immortals, athasian dragon etc. is the way they achived their status. In my opinion, there are some common points. To reach godlike status, you have to gather power: the nature of such power doesn't really matter: the favor of another god/immortal, an external source like the NoS or the Rain of Fire, devotional power from worshippers, raw evil. I will say, then, that athasian reach Immortality through dragonhood because there are no god from wich they could get help. Mystarans attain Immortality through sponsorship becase other immortals want to attract them to their Spheres, so they reveal the Paths. I would say that in any world mortals can attain Immortality through any of these means. The one chosen depends mostly on culture and on the attitude of the current pantheon. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:24:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Thanks for the mended opinion, James. I agree that they went overboard, then had to "pull the punch." Unfortunately, that really cheats those of us who entered post-Wrath out of a potentially interesting Glantri (here I go making enemies of the Glantri fans;-)! 8-) About to be stomped like an Averoignian grape, I remain, Yours, ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:39:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality <> Yeah, that's it--Entropy is just a big university department, where everyone with tenure gets a crack at being chair. Departmental politics a la Pandius...I think I'll pass on Immortality after all! 8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:43:37 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. At 01:46 PM 9/21/98 PDT, you wrote: > >>A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability >scores >>though non-magical means. > > True. In the Palladium System, one feature I really like is the >Physical Skill selection: if you take a physical skill, such as boxing, >gymnastics, wrestling, et c., your physical attributes, such as >strength, speed, constitution (of course, Palladium uses different >names) increase (note: reagrdless of anything else, always take Boxing; >you get an extra attack as well as a bunch of extra hit points/SDC). I >think D&D should have more skills like that; I can recall one similar: >Muscle gives you a bonus to bend bars/lift gates. Or there is the Star Wars RPG system where you get a bunch of 'character points' after an adventure which can be used to raise attributes or skills If we were to transfer that to DnD, than to go from 17 to 18 in an attribute would require 170 character points. The catch being is the DM is only supposed to distribute a maximum of 15 per adventure, and thats only if the character RPed well, came up with clever solutions to problems, worked well with other players, etc. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:28:11 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. In a message dated 1998-09-21 06:37:31 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability scores > though non-magical means. How about via an XP sacrifice? Say -- when a character reaches name level or higher, he can sacrifice one level's worth of XPs to improve an ability score by one point. The wish limitations that I suggested here could be used to limit the use of this bonus -- the higher an ability score is, the greater the risk that improving it further will adversely affect some other ability score. But there will eventually come a time when a player decides that the risk is worthwhile. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:28:08 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. In a message dated 1998-09-21 06:21:31 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > There are no 36th level > mages in Glantri in AC1000, Rad is 35th IRC. According to the Master rules set (I think), level 33 is sufficient to cast a Wish spell, so Prince Etienne can indeed cast it -- although he is probably the only one in Glantri who can. Besides he does use that spell in the Castle Amber module. Rad, of course, can cast the Wish spell in the same way that any other Immortal can. But I have thought of a more appropriate way than aging to limit use of the Wish spell -- assign it an XP cost. According to WotI, a Wish spell costs an Immortal 10 permanent PP, which equates to 100,000 XPs. Since mortals should not be more powerful than Immortals in this regard, each use of the Wish spell could cost that many XPs. If the character's XP total drops below the minimum needed for the lowest level at which he can cast the Wish spell, then that character loses the use of that spell until his XP total once again reaches the necessary total. This approach has the benefit of encouraging such wizards to adventure -- they need to earn those Wishes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:28:10 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. In a message dated 1998-09-21 06:37:31 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > Wasn´t it changed to level 36 in the Cyclopedia? Not that that changes the > fact. Yes, but it was clearly a cut and paste error -- that same entry says that a wizard needs a wisdom (not intelligence) of 18 to cast that spell. This error has the rather perverse effect of making the Wish spell more readily available to clerics than to mages. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:39:32 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > 10 permanent PP, which equates to 100,000 XPs. Since mortals should not > be more powerful than Immortals in this regard, each use of the Wish spell > could cost that many XPs. If the character's XP total drops below the minimum > needed for the lowest level at which he can cast the Wish spell, then that > character loses the use of that spell until his XP total once again reaches > the necessary total. This approach has the benefit of encouraging such > wizards to adventure -- they need to earn those Wishes. Wow.. I tell you what, wow.. I really like that idea. I thought it was kinda terrible to assign an Immortal a major power cost to cast wish, while Mortals could get away scot free. However, don't Immortals cast a kind of "Wish without error?" Either way, I like an XP loss. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:28:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The List Turns Three! In a message dated 1998-09-21 17:52:23 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > Cool! > So what is she like? ;) She seems to be a very nice woman. She has fond memories of working at TSR, and was rather honored when Bruce Heard assigned her the "Night Howlers" project, since "Glantri was his baby". She did mention not liking what was done to Mystara in its conversion to AD&D. She is not currently interested in rejoining the list because of the high volume of her other e- mail, but she is very grateful to whoever it is that has forwarded her the Net almanacs as they came out. Also, she is still very active in the gaming business. To find out what she has been up to, I would suggest a Web search for her name and for a few other key words such as Ghost Games, Gatecrasher, and Fudge. I bought her Fudge/Gatecrasher adventure "Santa's Secret" and was most amused by it. By the way, it was rather interesting how I met her. I was wandering through the dealer's room and looked at some things at the GPA (Game Publisher's Association) table. I handed her an item that I had been looking at so that she could ring it up for me, and my jaw dropped as I caught a glimpse of the name on her badge as she was turning away to get the credit card thingie to complete the sale. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:58:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi In a message dated 1998-09-21 21:41:05 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > IMO, the Old Ones arent really of any importance since noone knows > anythging about them. Ixion and Thanatos are listed as ultimate powers in > the HW boxed set. So Ixion would be the ultimate good? I hope not! That would make Rad and Glantri the ultimate evil. While Glantri has many problems, moral and otherwise, I would hate to think that it could be the "ultimate" evil. No, what I was suggesting was that some Power (either the Old Ones or something even more powerful than them) defines an ultimate Good that is the standard by which all sentient beings of any power level are judged. And this Power is not crude enough to give tangible benefits to paladins and others who dedicate themselves to Goodness -- instead, He/She/It sets things up so that acting in a Good way leads to better results that acting in an Evil way. Presumably this Power is far more interested in promoting Goodness than in revealing himself in any obvious way. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:09:46 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi > > I hope not! That would make Rad and Glantri the ultimate evil. While Glantri > has many problems, moral and otherwise, I would hate to think that it could > be the "ultimate" evil. > Well, while Ixion is probably not the ultimate good, even if he were it would not nessisarily follow that because Rad opposed Ixion he (and Glantri) were the ultimate evil. One or the other (or both) could have been mistaken in their beliefs to some extent, causing them to act imperfectly. After all, the Immortals are not omnicient and omnipotent. Being wrong isn't nessissarily evil. Of course, to get into the details of the WotI war shows that neither Rad nor Ixion acted blamelessly, and both commited acts that should be considered "not good", if not outright evil, on the face of them, but these "nefarious" acts were largely, IMO, caused by acting with recklessness and ignorance (by both), not active intent to commit evil. Of course, IMO, it is generally best to judge by actions. Remember what they say about the road to Hades. . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:01:13 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-20 06:25:28 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >the lightening attack aspect bothers me as you seem to be customizing the >attack to do what you want it to do. if the lightening acts like regular >lightening in regards to overload circuits and melt wiring (overwhelming the >hardware) it has to respect the circuit breakers and/or fuses. > well, i dont think i am customising it at all really. Everything in an area 80' long and 5' wide gets zapped, regardless of fuses, circuit breakers and anything else (all they do is prevent the current from continuing past them, but if the sensitive circuits are within the area of effect thats it). The only thing that will stop it is a solid object of thickness at least 1" per level. That is direct from the Rulz.>> i do not think you are doing it intentionally. i do think you are placing the lightening in a much too favorable role. and honestly, the lightening spell was created without the concept of going against M1 or comparable tank. or for that matter, to be used against solid state electronics. those electronics have fail safes to isolate and insulate surges and limit electrical damage. when you mix magic and tech you have to address things with a bit more realism. in a magic pure scenario explanations are simpler to conclude. there, magic defies physics. with introducing tech, you introduce physics. << IMHO classing Death Spell as a weapon of mass destruction and allowing chemical weapons kit to protect against it seems a pretty massive rewrite :-)>> the death spell translates well as a M-nerve agent. and actually the chem weapons kits were more atuned to death fog (contact agents). >however, i'd consider a hit upon a tank (esp. frontally) to deflect the >lightening bolt as if has hit a stone wall. > It would deflect if the armour was thick enough, i agree. And on the front the armour would be thick enough :-) >> what are you referring to when speaking of thickness? getting past the plating the hull's interior is pretty solid. there's a great deal of machinery crammed between hull plating and crew. i have a M1 cutaway diagram around here somewhere. externally, the tank has many stowage fittings that also have to be penetrated. also, the denser nature of chobham armour and depleted uranium should be considered as a thickness modifying factor. i'd probably be agreement with most of what you propose if the "tank" was not a modern one. if we backdated it to a WW2 era tank (Sherman, Cromwell, T34, etc) the coincidental magical counteractions would be minimal. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:01:19 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-20 06:26:12 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << imo a rw equivelent to death fog is chemical agents. a rw equiv. of death >spell is nerve agents such as seron gas (i know i misspelled it). NATO >doctrine recognized these threats and enacted countermeasures and protection >equipment. > Sarin (can u believe that i actually did an optional course in chemical warfare??? :). Derived from insecticide...>> toxic agents nonetheless. what kills one thing has a good chance of killing another. <> death fog inflicts damage via acidic vapors. hence the reference to chemical agents that affect tissue. death spell ignamiously sucks out the life of its targets like a sarin gas. not word for word similarities but a similar affect: death. hazardous agents kill differently. some as mention affect enzymes. others cause uncontrolled internal hemoraging. others shut down organs. others do a reverse to atrophy and cause metaphisical and metabolic overproduction. <> damage via deathfog is paced out over a certain number of rounds. even a 1st level fighter has 3 or 4 rounds to evade the fog. imo this is why there isn't a save for deathfog. this is also the grounds for my want of a save with death spell. remember, i like there to be an option out of everything. at least a save to half the damage. i was pleased by the tactic of singling out tank components such as the sights. which btw are housed within an armoured box with armoured doors (Web spell). other targetted areas include the air intakes to block off the airsupply to the engine. then there are the tanks achilles heel, the tracks and running gear. that was the reason i asked if the tanks in TotC were tracked or aircushioned. hover tanks are the future for attack immune tanks. tracks are just about at their limit for practical use with given tank tonnage. the problem with hover tanks is having a powersource strong enough to lift and propel a 100+ ton tank about with any degree of speed and control. of course a mage would have to do some serious scrying to discover the importance and location of the areas. <> but it does allow a save for half damage :) the spell reminds me of a napalm attack minus the cling and rectangular affect area. it also reminds me of an incediary grenade. the cling once again being absent. >first you are assuming that everything is going to go the way of the mage. >second you are assuming the tankers are idiots. to cast the spell he has to be >within proper range. do you seriously think armour is going to let potential >cover for the enemy stand. they are at least going to spread out to watch all >possible approaches and angles of attack. suspect areas are going to draw >precautionary fire. that tactic dates back to WW2. > Well, this will be guerrilla warfare. I take it is red that the tech armies will win every field engagement they meet. However, they have to hold ground, and they cant fire precautionary fire 24 hours a day.>> well at least we agree on the outcome of the tech armies vs. the mystaran armies. guerrilla warfare has so many variables in it for both sides that you would really have to play it out in a campaign. > <> > >i'd at least give the troops (wearing masks and suits) a save vs. death >spell. > Well, there are magical devices that stop gas based attacks in D+D, they dont stop a death spell. I cannot see in the remotest how you can say that NBC kit stops a death spell. It snuffs out life forces via necromancy! its not stopped by physical barriers. You saying that NBC kit stops "weapons of mass destruction" and classing a death spell as a weapon of mass destruction is just you rewriting the rules in favour of the techies!>> well the death spell is a weapon of mass destruction. it quickly snuffs the life from multiple targets within a common area without singling out any. no save no nothing. imc, i'd allow a save regardless of the target being tech or magically affiliated. it sucks enough having to roll a save or die, but to not even have that option to save...now that really sucks. death spell snubs the life of the targets. how does it do it? magically with necromancy. but how does it do it? what action within the targets' bodies cause death? attack the body's enzymes? cause internal hemoraging? what cause would a coroner place as a cause of death? that's what i mean by the death spell being an equivelent to a bio/chem weapon. both cause death within a given area. death is quick and leaves no entry wound ie its internal. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #646 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 647 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - The New Second Shadow [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:01:28 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic (Long) In a message dated 98-09-20 06:40:05 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >well APCs such as the M2/3 Bradley have sealed small arms gun ports >modified M-16s can be fired by the troops inside the Bradley. the LAV-25 also >has >the gunports and there are also hatches on the top of the infantry squad >section. both the Brads and LAVs are turreted having a stabilized 20mm cannon >and coaxial mg. the LAV has a hatch mounted mg too. the Brad has a TOW >missile launcher. so the mounted infantry can fight from the safety of the APCs. > although IRL the IFV experiment has been a bit of dismal failure (the concept of troops fighting from within vehicles has been ditched, i believe, as it just makes the infantry more vulnerable) in a world where antitank weapons exist it may be far more effective.>> you do mean that a IFV would be more effective in a world without antitank weapons. youre actually correct with the RW droppage of the firing ports. this was done in the case of the Brads in the Heavy Movement Regiments to increase their survivalbility in their heavy cavalry roles. the added armour protection obstructs the ports. the m16 ports were then sealed with bolt-on covers. there still are numerous Brads with the original armour and gun port config. the gulf war had them as did the US peacekeepers in bosnia. it depends on the unit the Brad is attached to and the role that Brad fills within the unit. the problem with troops firing from within a IFV can be seen as far back as WW2. the infantry becomes dependant on the IFV's protection and tend to not exit the vehicle to clear spots where the IFV cannot go. the role of the infantry is to clear and occupy. <> true. that was one of the reasons i placed such a high emphasis on the tank's mgs. the tank's main gun coming into play rarely, mainly against fixed fortifications. whereas the mgs and 20mm bushmasters of the M2/3s and LAVs would be devastating against the mystaran rank and file. > "Hard targets" would have fallen within the first 30 seconds of the > occupation. (2) hits from a 105 or 120mm gun would make most Mystaran > castles little more than burned out shells. > Although magically strengthened castle walls may surprise the M1 gunners :-)>> very true. magically strengthened walls are not too common. but say the existing ones do not fall to tank barrage, then heavier weapons can be brought into play. if these fail then air assault/insertion ala panama comes into play. if the target proves too difficult then bombardment of the interior until a surrender is gained. there are always options. >keeping the peace may not be all that difficult. these are beaten and >backwards people. i mean their armies have been devastated by the invaders' >techno weapons. the cities's defenses were blasted to rubble. the locals >morale probably isn't too good. this mystara with peasantry and nobility. >essentially what you are doing is swapping one ruler for another. if the >invaders treat the locals well, then resistance is limited. > But the adventurers and nobles (ie the powerful people) not to mention the religions (who basically dictate what the common people think) i am sure would not be too happy about being occupied.>> they don't have a choice. anyway a heroic ruler would have probably perished fending off the invaders. those still living have but few choices. plus since they are supposed to have the best interest of their subjects in mind, compliance may be the only way to insure the welfare of the people. anyway US doctrine usually has the opposing leader deposed and stripped of power. being the US democracy is introduced to the populace and eventually free elections. of course no candidates sympathetic to the previous regime would be on the ballot. btw- democracy is another rw aspect that would imo ruin the fantasy element of mystara. << And like the Rebel Alliance, all the insurgents have to do is prove that the enemy is not unbeatable.>> aye but the mystaran rebels lack the luxery that the SW rebels had, idiotic Imperial Stormtroopers. jeez...those guys were really bad fighters. >but it is that same connection with the community that inspires the guerillas. >the trick is to undermine that support. the guerillas can only >operate within that support area. kind of ironic if you think about it. > Hearts and minds...>> yes....plus these are a fuedal/medieval people. they are use to the conqueror being the ruler. plus as tech is introduced to them via occupation, and eventually trade, the occupied folks lives will improve. plus there is the above mentioned introduction of democracy. that should be a real boon for a people use to the servant/lord system. >i think some of you underestimate the power of a modern warmachine. in battles >against the various mystaran armies, images of the carnage of ww1 come to >mind. the difference is that the mystarans are outranged and outmaneuvered. >if adventurers and your key to this invasion fine. but remember that the tech >invaders would have their own high level hero types. and these folk are >highlevel with superior weapons, with air support, and all manner of techno >goodies that even up the ante and in certain cases surpasses it. > Although i still think that a gang of 16th level AD+D adventurers would be able to take them apart :-)>> i obviously disagree based on already stated reasons. how big is a gang anyway? <> that probably the best way to handle it. of course even then different groups would have different plotlines. still it would be interesting. >and these elite tech forces (SEALs, SAS, Spec.Forces, Rangers, etc.) come not >only in variety, but also in numbers. these folk are trained to infiltrate >with stealth, hit the enemy hard and in his own element, and fade away into >wild. an added advantage that the elite forces have is the instilled doctrine >of working as a team. a party of adventurers have to learn this on their own >thru their years of adventures. > Mmm, but these guys havnt dealt with invisible stalkers, magical lie detection, ESP, alarm spells and that sort of thing before. :-)>> aye and the mystarans have never dealt with a tech army. nor have they dealt with elite infiltration troops armed with the best tech the taxpayers can buy. >insect plague: thermite, fragmentation, or concussion grenades. take your >pick. better than a bug zapper. creeping doom: fall back and get on the radio. >call in artillery or airsupport. heavy on the HE and WP and side order of >napalm. > Creeping doom, eveyone in it takes 1000 damage. I have respect for that spell :-)>> you do have to respect it. but it has to catch you first to hurt you. hence the fall back and call in the firepower. >arty and air support would be how i handled any nasty druidic encounters. let >him know that that precious forest can quickly become a wasteland if push >comes to shove. > Hardly hearts and minds. More like tyrannical occupation!>> being in the wildlands few would know about it. plus compared to some of the nasty things mystaran have done, leveling a forest is of little consequences. anyway, its not like the average druid is on a first name basis with city dwellers. anyway a druid would only attack if the invaders start damaging the forest. imo the druids would be as much against the PCs for bringing the war into their sacred forest. >if that isn't a choice, seek and destroy teams would be sent in at night. in >the dark, their NV goggles would allow them sight well extending beyond the >range of infravision. resistance forces hiding within the forests would be >scouted out using armed attack choppers equipped with thermal visioning and >light enhancement. chopper insertion of troops near the target area. the >attack choppers would monitor and inform the ground units as well as offer air >arty when needed. > Well, all NV goggles would do is give 1000' infravision. I am always playing elves, and infravision doesnt do much good.>> nope...200-300 yards of light enhanced vision. which outranges the vision range of the elves. the thermal imaging comes from the overhead choppers who peer down through the canopy to track the rebels. <<(Incidentally, speaking of elves, elves are undetectable in forest until they attack. Predator, anyone? :)>> that worked well for the alfheim vs. the subterrerean shadow elves :) but seriously.... i thought that was just for intentional concealment or laying an ambush. no matter the elves would show themselves when they attack. with their low birth rates elves do not want to get into a war of attrition. not to forget the adnd rulebook maturity rates for elves. 100 years right. personally i prefer the dnd maturity rate. anyway...once that first attack is on it becomes a matter of melee against assault rifles. even if they hit and run, the chances of the techies taking down a few more retreating elves are there. if the elves are attacking enmass close are support and arty. ever heard of hurtgen forest? arty burst do some interesting things upon bursting in the trees. splinters everywhere. >how many adventurer parties do you know without any spellcasters? even a >mystaran regiment or division is going to have at least one cleric or mage. as >for friendship/comraderie not factoring, i'll agree. that's true according to >the rules. but imc i do offer that added chance to break a charm. > Well, fair enough. But this is still really a bit of a rewrite in favour of techies. >> well the alteration to the charm is unbiased. i have and would do the same if it was a pure fantasy campaign. imo certain endearing factors between pcs should be respected. it actually adds to the game. say a longtime friend or family member is charmed. the caster wants him to attack his fellows. the charmed person resists hurting his real friends as well as his perceived friend (the caster). not wanting to hurt either he may intervene to subdue an attacker. this could be beneficial to the caster. the charmed may even act as a peacemaker between the two. that imo sets up some good gaming moments. the charm attacks i naturally go by the book on are charms from creatures who have that ability such as vampires. though i did offer a bit of flexibilty once to a pair of siblings exacting revenge upon a vampire who slew another sibling. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:39:31 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery >death spell snubs the life of the targets. how does it do it? magically with >necromancy. but how does it do it? what action within the targets' bodies >cause death? attack the body's enzymes? cause internal hemoraging? what cause >would a coroner place as a cause of death? that's what i mean by the death >spell being an equivelent to a bio/chem weapon. both cause death within a >given area. death is quick and leaves no entry wound ie its internal. Death spell causes the target to "never be raised or resurrected". In other words, it doesnt affect the body at all, it effects the soul (In the Complete Book of Necromancers it is explained that this is why the spell should be considered forbidden "evil magic" - it destroys their immortal soul. No heaven for the victims of this spell!) I have always said that a victim slain by death spell has no marks of injury upon him, he is just dead. As an attack against the victims soul, there would be no physical damage at all. The coroner would just have to say "one second he was alive, next second he wasnt, and it beats me as to why...". Their life force has been snuffed... Death spell is nasty. Note that victims of this couldnt have speak with dead cast upon them either, or anything like that... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:47:50 -0600 (MDT) From: John Hare Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery > Well, this will be guerrilla warfare. I take it is red that the tech armies > will win every field engagement they meet. However, they have to hold > ground, and they cant fire precautionary fire 24 hours a day.>> Sorry if this steps on someones toes but just a correction to this idea. Tanks don't hold ground. Infantry do. The main purpose of having a tank is firepower and mobility. As soon as you 'try' and have it hold ground you have lost mobility. Since this entire discussion has been how to neutralize a tank here is one idea... dissolve, turn the ground into mud. Another possibility is a tank ditch. If the tank can't cross and attack the objective it has been neutralized. Even pit traps covered with Hallucinatory Terrain would be effective. Especially considering how fast a tank might be going be for falling in. The crew would be shaken up at the least, or dead at the worst. "If death is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." -Solomon Short _A Season for Slaughter_ John Hare *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:48:41 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The New Second Shadow >Special thanks to Herve Musseau for proofreading and to the "Star Wars - >Rebel Alliance Sourcebook" for inspiration. Heh. The book where the Alliance is referred to as "the Allies" and the Battle of Yavin is "their finest hour"... :) Cool :) But arent the Second Shadow supposed to be, somewhat dubious? Alliance Intelligence are the good guys! Hmm. Maybe they should have a Redesign bureau :) Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:55:52 +0200 From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es> Subject: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Antonio Lopez ICQ 14670831 http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/1639/index.html - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:42:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] > > I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or > 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP > doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. > Well, what this represents is that a person with a high primary stat has an aptitude for the work that is being done: a dude with a high strength has an easier time of it as a warrior, a dudessa with a high wisdom finds it easier to understand the teachings of the Immortals, etc. Conversely, someone with a lower score has to work harder to gain the same understanding. Thus the former (folks with high scores) get a xp bonus to reflect their natural aptitude. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:44:30 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality > Remember, Thanatos was BELOW Nyx in power for Millenia before WoTI. Nyx > isn't a ditz, she's remarkably intelligent, and I'm sure that she'd like > to have words with you ;) > "MYSTARA: Big Stroke for Thanatos !! According to usually good informed sources one of the greatest plots evil ol'T-Bone ever had developed came to an abrupt end. Especially tragic: The plot were countered by Thanatos..." Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:13:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > Remember, Thanatos was BELOW Nyx in power for Millenia before WoTI. Nyx > isn't a ditz, she's remarkably intelligent, and I'm sure that she'd like > to have words with you ;) Heh.. Umm. I think that I confused Nyx with Hel for a bit there. Ethan - Oh.. Hi Hel! - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:53:01 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions > Rather than engage these problems, which would have been potentially > insoluble, the editors probably decided to pretend that the event never > occured. So it wasn't so much sloppy editing, more likely it was lack of > creativity in designing an apropriate "precipitating event" that would > encourage Rad to cycle up the Doomsday Weapon again. > Probably the best thing to do then yourself would be to replace the > bombardment by the council with some other threatening, potentially > distructive occurance that forces Rad into the same position, but doesn't > involve the Council directly. Since you're a creative sort, I'm sure you > can come up with something suitably malevolent. 8-) Or they all rushed home to save their possessions and their families where they were caught by the sinking continent. Probably in the last hours all magic in Alphatia was down... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:00:36 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. > But I have thought of a more appropriate way than aging to limit use of the > Wish > spell -- assign it an XP cost. According to WotI, a Wish spell costs an > Immortal > 10 permanent PP, which equates to 100,000 XPs. Since mortals should not > be more powerful than Immortals in this regard, each use of the Wish spell > could cost that many XPs. If the character's XP total drops below the minimum > needed for the lowest level at which he can cast the Wish spell, then that > character loses the use of that spell until his XP total once again reaches > the necessary total. This approach has the benefit of encouraging such > wizards to adventure -- they need to earn those Wishes. > Kavyid, do you want to compare a mortal wish with an immortal wish? Of course the mortal version is much weaker than the spell cast by an immortal in manifestation form. When casting the spell in mortal form the immortal does not loose PP, but is very limited... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:28:52 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] In a message dated 9/22/98 8:34:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 101659@ingta.unizar.es writes: << I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? >> I seem to recall a variant allowing the low ability scores to get the bonus instead of high ones appearing in one of the Princess Ark/Grimoire articles in Dragon. I don't have the time at the moment to check for it, anyone else care to? - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:28:39 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. > > Thanks for the mended opinion, James. I agree that they went overboard, > then had to "pull the punch." Unfortunately, that really cheats those of > us who entered post-Wrath out of a potentially interesting Glantri > Now, as someone who is struggling to recover from my own tendancy to equate TSR "canon" (I.E. the PWAs, et al) with established Orthodoxy, any deviation from which would be vile heresy of a base and ignoble sort, I do have to encourage you. . . *gulp*. . .to be a heritic *stricken look*, if you think it would be more interesting for your own campaign. IMO, in the PWAs and in WotI there are numerous examples of why "canon" should not be sanctified, events that are in and of themselves jarringly. . . .odd. . .one could even say they are *wrong*. I'm sure that all members of the list that are familiar with the WotI set, the PWAs, and JA can find examples of events, or even just a "tone", that they find incongruous. And, in fact, we all may have *very* different ideas of which events we find to be unorthodox. Where does that lead? It leads to the conclusion, in my opinion, that the established *TRUE* Orthodoxy is the freedom to take your own campaigns in the directions you find most interesting. Following a proscribed path, set down by others, be they TSR designers, Jamuga Khan, or James Ruhland, is to restrict your own imaginative creativity. TSR at one time had a motto: "Products of Your Imagination." Not "Products of Our [TSRs] Imagination." This should be considered the Orthodox Creed of Mystara, and any other RPG. Point being: if you want the Alphatian Council to be over Glantri when the cataclysm strikes, and remain on the surface, and thus create "a potentially interesting Glantri," you should consider yourself not "cheat[ed]", but free to do so. Free in the utmost sense in that you can liberate yourself from the binding shackles of established "canon", and follow true Orthodoxy. I donno: I'm certainly rambling, ranting, and writing another of my infamous screeds. But while I for one certainly know full well the power "canon" has, having experienced it in full force myself, over one's mind, and the way it can bind the creative control you (or, rather, I, to speak only for myself) have over your *own* campaign (they are *our* campaigns, right? not TSRs?), this " canon control" is only mental and psychological. You can free yourself from it, and TSR goons* will not come visit you in the night a la "Brazil" (the movie, not the country). *Remember Johnny "Feaver" from WKRP? The episode where they were out at the transmiter due to a bomb scare, and he beat the bejeezus out of a phone, and spent the rest of the episode cowering in fear of the "Phone Cops"? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:32:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions > > Or they all rushed home to save their possessions and their families > where they were caught by the sinking continent. Probably in the last > hours all magic in Alphatia was down... > A possibility if they knew what was happening, but that was never explained. Did the Immortals warn them? Again, possible, but IIRC the Immortals were rather busy themselves at that specific moment. They don't have radios or stuff like that, and if they were busy bombarding Glantri City, I doubt they'd take time out to cast Sending spells to make sure Alphatia was still there (no Sending spells in D&D anyhow). Theoretically possible that some magical communication initiated from the Alphatia end of things might have occured, but not sure how effective spellcasting would be during an epic cataclysm. Just one of thouse imponderable mysteries, I suppose, to which canon gives no answer. . . so we're free (as *always*) to decide for ourselves what really happened. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:15:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. <> Aloud: Do not condemn thyself, sweet James, for I was won over to the Dark Side of neresy against established canon long, long ago...save thyself... Silently: Ahh...another convert to my evil cause...ha ha ha ha ha (wicked bellowing laughter)... On a more serious note, though, I couldn't agree with you more [I wrote something like this on the introduction to my page, though I don't think anyone reads it, since they probably think "Introduction" means another one of those "What is Mystara?"-type rambles :-)]. Imagination is the key, not blind adherence to orthodoxy, no matter if orthodoxy in this case means bad writing, worse editing, or just plain old dumb oversights. Oh, BTW, I was REALLY reading CoM's Designer's Manual for the first time the other day (not just scanning for the info I needed at the moment), and read this (hope the "phone police"--yes, I remember that episode :-)--don't get me for quoting!:)-- "...don't worry when your campaign world differs from the 'official' version. As long as you and your players are having fun, the officialness of the setting doesn't matter." (TSR, Champions of Mystara, Designer's Manual, page 36) 8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:22:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Could it have happened this way: 1) Alphatians teleport over Glantri City and begin their attack 2) (Taking the "Rad regretfully activates the Doomsday Weapon" option) Rad doesn't actually activate the weapon until he sees the destruction wrought by the Alphatians on Glantri City (he waits till the smoke clears). Enraged, he activates the device. 3) The Alphatians would have done a "hit-and-run," since Glantrian mages are fully capable of retaliating. They've already "run" (teleported away) by the time the smoke clears and Rad goes ballistic. 4) So here are our 1,000 Alphatian mages, just getting home for a nice stiff drink and a pat on the back for a job well done, when they suddenly find themselves wishing they'd taken those swimming lessons after all... :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:24:27 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > > distructive occurance that forces Rad into the same position, but doesn't > > involve the Council directly. Since you're a creative sort, I'm sure you > > can come up with something suitably malevolent. 8-) Actually, the 1000 wizards never had to come, IF the PC's work fast, then Rad blows up everything earlier. Though your theory sounds valid. - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:58:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. <> Did I say "neresy"?? Oops...I've revealed the twisted master plan...Yes, I admit, "neresy" is the leader of the Dark Side, and I am but his minion, doomed to lure pure and saintly Mystarans over to him...:-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:57:59 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions 1.) How does it explain the proces of rebuilding Glantri City (from the 1,000-Wizards' bombardment--WotI p. 90)? G:KoM doesn't even mention it, and PWAIII gives no details. IMO Glantri City wasn't really damaged that much. After all it most likely has powerful magical shields for this sort of thing, and the 1000 Wizards had to spend time to batter down the defenses before gettings at the city (not to mention that there probably weren't all 1000 wizards bombarding). By the time they punched through, Alphatia sank, so the wizards fled. 2.) When, and under what circumstances did Catherine d'Amberville give up her position as Grand Master of the Great School (WotI p. 91) in favour of Harald Haaskinz? Is this when she went to Thyatis? How did Harald get the job? It's probably just a case of bad continuity. Just assume that Harald got the job in the first place, not Catherine. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:02:17 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortality Elsewhere > Since you're a fan of FR, is there any other way in that setting to >get to Immortal level power? I must confess, the only good (relatively Divine ascension (not really Immortal level, and not unique to FR). Or become a proxy of a god. >speaking) I saw in FR was Zhentil Keep, and I hear they destroyed that, >so... > Zhentil Keep <> Zhentarim, and they are more powerful than ever. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #647 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 648 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II Re: [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II Re: [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II [MYSTARA] - Happy new year!! [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:19:49 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] At 02:55 PM 9/22/98 +0200, you wrote: >I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or >10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP >doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. > >What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? I think that it makes sense from an IG standpoint. In RL, those who are stronger, smarter, etc. tend to learn faster, depending on the skill. Why is this so? Perhaps more confidence, in the case of mental skills, quicker understanding, or in the case of physical skills, the target muscles don't need as much training. So an XP bonus makes sense. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:47:21 +0000 From: Cameron Paine Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Oooooon the other hand, those that are naturally gifted have to try less to succeed. So if two characters go through the same thing and survive the one with the lower stats was either luckier or tried harder. So it makes sense to reverse the bonuses. Those with 3's get +10%, those with 18's get -10%. That's how it is in my game and it seems to work. Keeps them all about level. Then again in my game they don't know what level are and what hit points they have. Anyway, have a think. Cameron, xxx. Andrew Toth wrote: > At 02:55 PM 9/22/98 +0200, you wrote: > >I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or > >10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP > >doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. > > > >What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? > > I think that it makes sense from an IG standpoint. In RL, those who are > stronger, smarter, etc. tend to learn faster, depending on the skill. Why > is this so? Perhaps more confidence, in the case of mental skills, quicker > understanding, or in the case of physical skills, the target muscles don't > need as much training. > > So an XP bonus makes sense. > > Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant > Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- > |/ > "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:15:15 PDT From: "Luca Toni" Subject: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus << I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? >> IMC we don't use this silly rule, 'cause we think that a character with high scores gets XP more easily than others who has lesser scores. This difference is the REAL bonus. Filally, there is only a real bonus: the 18 score in Int for mage, wich let 'em to cast Wish (and 18 Wis for Clerics). This is not only a bonus, it is a requisite too. Luca ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:32:18 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] Antonio Lopez wrote: > >I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or >10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP >doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. > >What do you think? Do you use the XP bonus? I use the XP bonus, but the way most of my players roll, relatively few of their abilities are high, anyway. ;-) As a side note, in the letters section of one issue of Dragon magazine, this issue was discussed. A person wrote in saying that it would make more sense to give a person with lower prime requisites the XP bonus to "even things out", while those with high prime requisites have a sort of penalty for being "overqualified". I'm neutral on this matter myself, but I thought I'd throw this in... Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:14:16 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] >> I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% >or >> 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP >> doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. >> > Well, what this represents is that a person with a high primary stat has >an aptitude for the work that is being done: a dude with a high strength >has an easier time of it as a warrior, a dudessa with a high wisdom finds >it easier to understand the teachings of the Immortals, etc. > Conversely, someone with a lower score has to work harder to gain the same >understanding. Thus the former (folks with high scores) get a xp bonus to >reflect their natural aptitude. On that note, has anyone considered allowing players to have characters with stats below "minimum" and assigned xp. penalties for low prime reqs? Personally, I've never used stat minimums, but do assign xp. penalties for low prime requisites. However, I've never had a player start with low PR's. Mostly this occurs because of magic. Later. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:40:42 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] > I dont like when characters with high scores in main abilities get an 5% or > 10% bonus to XP. I think a fighter with low strenght must gain more XP > doing the same work that a 18-strenght one. I use the +10%/+5% rule in my AD&D games, but only for humans. (Demihumans get enough perks, as it is.) Humans with high prime requisites -- i.e. a natural talent for their classes -- make phenomenal adventurers, picking up and mastering their skills faster than demihumans or the 'ungifted' do; humans with average stats don't have the aptitude that such creme-de-la-creme boast, so mostly stay home and farm. OOC, of course, this helps keep humans desirable as PCs. Players who roll high stats IMC tend to select humans, while those with average stats take the demihuman option. Ability-score bonuses for human PCs and racial bonuses for others thus balance out, with all players' characters ending up about even. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:51:38 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions >IMO Glantri City wasn't really damaged that much. After all it most likely >has powerful magical shields for this sort of thing, and the 1000 Wizards >had to spend time to batter down the defenses before gettings at the city >(not to mention that there probably weren't all 1000 wizards bombarding). >By the time they punched through, Alphatia sank, so the wizards fled. Or maybe the out-of-control NoS could've released a pulse of anti-magical force as it was "powering up", a force which spread out from the Nucleus to sweep across Glantri City in a one-mile radius. This wouldn't necessarily have affected Glantri too much, as pretty much anything that could've be dispelled had already been dispelled in the "week of no magic"; but it would've certainly affected anything up to one mile ABOVE the city... including Fly spells. 999 flying Alphatian mages: "AAAIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiaaaaaaiiiiiii-i-i-i-i-i-i-a-a-a-a-a-i...i...i...i.........." Lone pegasus-riding Alphatian mage: "Where'd everybody go....?" ;-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:28 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hollywood Horror In a message dated 98-09-21 14:39:10 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >as for scoring a palpable hit on a vampire, enchanted items are not really >needed according to Hollywood. the tried and true wooden stake is not >enchanted. neither are animal horns (Lost Boys) and wrought iron (Vampire >Memoires). then there are the various improvised wooden stakes created from >broken boards, table legs, spears, broken stair bannisters, and i even saw a >broken pool cue used once. > Well, in the Lost Boys arrows count as stakes. On the other hand, nonmagical stakes work in D+D. Wrought iron (cold iron) and silver work on demons and such.>> oh yeah...forgot the arrows. and not to forget electrocution via a stereo stystem. <> the "IMC" problem came from a player who pointed out that there were basically no differences between a stake and a spear. after that we went with stakes having to be blessed or something. btw- i ommitted this from the earlier post. do you know why legend has silver as being effective versus werebeasts. firstly there is a mystical connection between silver and the moon. then there is the social economics of the populace buying wards against werebeasts. it was surmised that weapons had to be of a pure metal. gold was ideal but not readily available to society due to costs. silver was cheaper to the point that at least several townspeople could possess a silver weapon. a noble was compelled to offer protection whether it was real (bandits) or perceived (werebeasts). <<(The Lost Boys - sheesh. Come back Hammer, all is forgiven... :)>> hey...i liked the 80s. i am a child of the 80s. for other undead supernatural stuff by hollywood i'd suggest the cable series Poltergeist: The Legacy which aires on Showtime. the "legacy" premise is imo screaming for a DnD conversion. >myself, i designate vamp slaying tools like wooden stakes as being blessed by >a cleric or being cut from trees from a sacred grove. otherwise, every spear >thrust spear or arrow becomes a potential wooden stake. > never really had any dispute as to what counted as a stake. A natural piece of unworked wood, i guess, ie no spear, no arrow, just a spike. >> naturally i'd agree. my own gaming party was the root of the stake problems. after we implemented the blessed wood clause we ran into more problems such as improvised stakes. we came up with these bless tactics: *stake is cut from trees grown on temple grounds or in a sacred place. the cutting must be condoned by the appropriate clerical authorities. *a regular wooden stake must be blessed or prayed over by a cleric ie like holy water. *improvised stakes must be sharpened by a cleric or elf. *broken boards or spears not needing sharpening are only effective if a cleric or elf is doing the staking attempt. the attempt requires both hands. *annointing the regular stake or improvised stake with holy water makes it affective against a vampire. *no matter how the stake is crafted, the damage inflicted is not cumulative for melee damage. instead it only counts in the case of a successful staking of the heart attempt. *a stake can be improvised by anyone from the shattered wood of a coffin. this started off as being specified as coming from a vampire's coffin. it changed then to coming from a relative of the vamps coffin. then it went straight out to any coffin. * not exactly a stake but another deadly attack for a vamp is to use a weapon the vamp used in life against them. the old group went through a stage where we were actively hunting sentient undead. to get rid of the big guys, liches and vamps, we use to customize the demise of them on the creatures history. there are other remembered techniques but they were more specialized per vampire or lich. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:33 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-21 15:00:00 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >Such a haughtiness wil cause the death of many proud tankers and elite >infantry soldiers. :-) > >The point is: When their neighbours are unable to grasp the Ethengarian way >of life non-Mystarans would not be able to likewise. After some weeks the >tanker crews will learn not to leave their vessel when being on the Sea of >Grass (not that they are completely safe inside). > well the Russians suffered in Afghanistan :) >> afghanistan showed the flaws within the Soviet war doctrine. the Red Army was ill equipped in fighting partisians. that's ironic since russia had done well in fighting a partisan war during the 40s. the afghans also did something the russians hadn't had to deal with in any depth, they resisted. plus with its islamic nature the afghans were supported by other islamic nations to bolster the ranks. the thing that the red army did well was air support and using their choppers for moving troops in. once the US supplied Stingers were introduced, this undermined the backbone of the red army's ability to counter the islamic rebels. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:21 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment In a message dated 98-09-21 13:55:11 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >exactly...well kind of. my point is that tech makes up for the lack of magic. >in a tech vs. magic war both sides are going to be facing a mysterious entity. >a mage turning a jeep into a large french pastry is awe inspiring and scary to >the techies. but the techies' tools are as equally awe inspiring/scary. >imagine the mystaran forces experiencing an arty barrage, a helicopter >gunship, or even a tank. and the terror/awe would be intensified as these >techno weapons would be used enmass. > well, the Mystarans have an advantage in that they live in a fantastic world where literally anything could happen. Golems (Hulean Juggernaut?) are not too dissimilar to tanks, and i imagine that if you have tangled with a 300' long Great Wyrm an Apache gunship probably is not incredibly awe inspiring (however powerful it actually is). Artillery would be like a volley of invocation spells.>> aye but the range makes the attacker/source virtually invisible to the target. a mystaran division is marching to meet these strange invaders. bam! the ground around them explodes from a arty and or MRLS barrage. these are people of a fantasy world, but a large chunk of the populace hasn't ever seen a dragon. the same goes for the hulean juggernauts. <<(Incidentally, IMC WotI is going to be a bit like World War 1 (Welcome to a Great War) in terms of carnage on a mass scale. Given the (unrealistic, IMHO) amount of magic fielded by the two sides i could quite easily envisage this!)>> actually the use of magic was placed on a backburner during wrath. the war was fought pretty much in a conventional manner. elements such as the alphatian skyships were removed via a convenient fire. stuff like that has been a bother to both James and myself. i am sure James could slap together a better list of the absense of magic than i could. << Not to say the Mystarans are not going to be intimidated by the techies (My lord there appears to be an army of 2000 golems approaching our borders!) but they arent going to be completely shellshocked.>> actually i think the mystarans would be extremely cocky until the first shot is fired. the techies wearing just what appears to be cloth/padded armors. no horse cavalry. and operating in smaller units spread out along a front. imo once the war of movement is begun the mystarans will be reeling and hardpressed to make any sustained stand. and if you think about it modern warfare doesn't observe the fuedal rules of combat. fighting after dark, fighting during winter, and fighting for objectives and not just the field of battle are modern doctrines. the techies can bring an attack onto the mystarans from great distances through arty and air support. <> i agree to a point. magic should be a surprise to the techies. i do think that the offensive capabilities and the coincidental counters to some of the magic would still have the techies at a distinct advantage over the mystarans. as for ghosts...well ghosts are usually bound to a certain area. earth has its own share of ghost legends. not to forget the earthen religions which are religions and therefore wards against the undead. and then there are the techies's own clerics aka chaplains. no healing powers but they are religious figures with offensive abilities agains enemies both mortal and spiritual. btw- an interesting notion would be the chaplains to begin gaining clerical spells upon landing on mystara. >in the case of tech vs. magic, a failed attack spells potential death for the >mage. the power potential for even a lowly tech infantryman has to be >considered. then there is the added dimension of other combatants. the mage >may gut a tank, but is it worth it if his minor victory is followed by his own >death by other tech weapons and troops nearby. that is where attrition comes >in. tech troops, pilots, and even tankers can be trained in bulk and a whole >lot faster than a mage can be trained. > Well, even the Battle of Agincourt may not have happened quite like that in D+D, if the French were level 9 and the English level 1.>> i think you missed my point with the agincourt reference. superior range mixed with greater potential of firepower of the longbowman spelled disaster for the french knights/the pride of french nobility. at the time a great shock to europe. << (Although it has to be said that that in the Middle Ages the English trained with longbows practically from birth, so saying that they are lower rung soldiers may not exactly be valid. Lower class, maybe :)>> that's true. that's why i said a lower class. having been an archery enthusiast since the age of six and bowhunter since the age of ten, i can appreciate the english longbowman. however, the longbowman was fodder if the enemy got within striking range of the bowmen. and a replacement of a lost longbowman was difficult. the actual boon of a longbowman was the ability to maintain a sustained arrow barrage onto a specified area and the ability to outrange and out volume fire enemy crossbows of the time. longbowmen were a peasant army unit. therefore armor and melee weapons were scarce. as were the training with melee weapons. to play out agincourt with warmachine just remember to assign the stat bonuses for the terrain favoring the english (muddy and open), remember that even though they were the invaders they were acting as defenders in the battle, the english were behind picket stakes (defenses), and the range of the longbow outdistanced the range of the french crossbows. oh...and iirc the english had a number of primitive guns there too. though that may be a moot point since there are conflicting reports as to their use. the rainy weather of the previous few days may have negated their gunpowder supply. <> yeah...these threads have taken on a life of their own. amazing how the citing of a M1a2 sparked this thing on. as mentioned, had the cited tank been a ww2 era tank i'd have little room to argue. much of the doctrines i speak of were partially introduced in the last "firearms in mystara" debate. i'd prefer to keep tech out of mystara. this is hypocritical as several of my present projects include Blackmoor tech. but....blackmoor tech isn't exactly RW tech. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:58:53 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] > > OOC, of course, this helps keep humans desirable as PCs. > An excellent idea, btw. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:16:39 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [XP Bonus] > >> >> OOC, of course, this helps keep humans desirable as PCs. >> >An excellent idea, btw. Hey, thanks! :-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:11:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II Hi there, I was just wondering...is it worth it for me to buy PWA I or II (AC 1010-11)? I have III and JA already, but someone mentioned last week or so that PWA I has something on the Alphatian army, etc. What can anyone tell me? Thanks, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:38:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > I was just wondering...is it worth it for me to buy PWA I or II (AC > 1010-11)? I have III and JA already, but someone mentioned last week or > so that PWA I has something on the Alphatian army, etc. What can anyone > tell me? PWA's 1 and 2 contain D&D stats for everything, so I'f you're a fan of the best TSR RPG system, and like the War Machine, then by all means! Ethan - No offense meant to the AD&D buffs on the list. - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:38:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - PWA I and II On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote: > I was just wondering...is it worth it for me to buy PWA I or II (AC > 1010-11)? I have III and JA already, but someone mentioned last week or > so that PWA I has something on the Alphatian army, etc. What can anyone > tell me? PWA's 1 and 2 contain D&D stats for everything, so I'f you're a fan of the best TSR RPG system, and like the War Machine, then by all means! Ethan - No offense meant to the AD&D buffs on the list. - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:55:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Happy new year!! Hello fellow Mystarans. Yesterday was the start of the new Hebrew year so "shana tova" (good year) to you all. On that note, I misplaced my PWA and as I recall it had the calanders of several Mystaran cultures. Did any of you made calanders to other cultures not listed there? (for ex- Hule, Denagoth, Wendar, gnomes, 'noids and such?) really would like to see that. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:54:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >>Heh.. Umm. I think that I confused Nyx with Hel for a bit there. >Ethan - Oh.. Hi Hel! I once confused them withe one another myself. you should know its quite painful to be teared in two by both female hierarchs of entropy... well, got to go back to the army. There's no way to start the day than to get rocks thrown at you by children. (ok bad joke) Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:54:49 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. I know Its not just me, and this sobject has come up over and over in the past, but 1000 wizards ?!!??!! WHY! WHAT FOR!? I admit I dont have the WotI ( and if anyone has one for sale I will be at Ohadshm@inter.net.il) but the Idea of that amount of mages always gave me the creeps. Ok its an empire, it has 6 million people (so does Israel BTW) , its a magocracy, and its a powerful one. so? whats wrong with "dozens" of strong wizards instead of "hundreds". My -..hmm i mean.. OUR beloved Glantri has only about 30 or so really powerful wizards and the place is as magic rich as one could want. You know what? Im glad it sunk! good bye Sunsval see you in hell. (or Hel, or the abyss, whatever) Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:43:06 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment > < overconfident, living in their safe logical world (Ghosts! Pull yourself > together private! Ghosts dont exist!), and in terms of culture shock i > think they would undoubtably be on the receiving end more than the > Mystarans...>> > >i agree to a point. magic should be a surprise to the techies. i do think that >the offensive capabilities and the coincidental counters to some of the magic >would still have the techies at a distinct advantage over the mystarans. >as for ghosts...well ghosts are usually bound to a certain area. earth has its >own share of ghost legends. not to forget the earthen religions which are >religions and therefore wards against the undead. and then there are the >techies's own clerics aka chaplains. Ahh, but that makes it worse. The techies know what a vampire is, thats why they are afraid about it! (Hmm, this could turn rapidly to From Dusk till Dawn (Yeah, Peter Cushing does that all the time...) > no healing powers but they are religious >figures with offensive abilities agains enemies both mortal and spiritual. >btw- an interesting notion would be the chaplains to begin gaining clerical >spells upon landing on mystara. Hmm. Maybe, but i think that Christianity at least would be against such things (witchcraft). > Well, even the Battle of Agincourt may not have happened quite like that in > D+D, if the French were level 9 and the English level 1.>> > >i think you missed my point with the agincourt reference. superior range mixed >with greater potential of firepower of the longbowman spelled disaster for the >french knights/the pride of french nobility. at the time a great shock to >europe. No, i realised that. My point was that the longbowman were highly skilled, they werent just "peasants". It was a case of the right troops for the right terrain. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:45:02 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic > well the Russians suffered in Afghanistan :) >> > >afghanistan showed the flaws within the Soviet war doctrine. Funny thing was, that was where the IFV experiment was tried and failed (the old Soviet BMPs). The concept of infantry fighting under armour was considered to be a radical new concept at the time, but after the Afghans proved that infantry attempting to fight from within their vehicle just proved to be a sitting duck it got dropped... Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #648 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, September 23 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 649 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus RE: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:44:04 +0200 From: Ezio Pignatelli Subject: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus We do use that rule. I feel that it basically has two advantages: 1) it gives some push towards some 'realistic' choice of class for a character of given stats. If you really want to play a dumb wizard you can do that, of course. But most wizards have to be intelligent, and most fighters have to be strong, and, thanx to this rule, it is this way. 2) Since most experience points are awarded to the group as a whole, the players that choosed a class suitable with their stats will advance faster than the others. Which is reasonable, in my opinion: since they all had the same adventures, in the same time, how would you explain the fact that the dumb wizard is learning spells faster than the smart one? In the same time and with the same master? - -- Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840 mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat - -- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:12:29 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > I know Its not just me, and this sobject has come up over and over in the past, but 1000 wizards ?!!??!! > WHY! > WHAT FOR!? > Basically because DotE says Alphatia has 1,000 36th level wizards (actually, IIRC, it is possible that the first reference to the thousand wizards appeared in one of the CM or M modules, but I haven't got the patience to go look. . . .oh, wait: yes I do, and here it is: p.4 of CM1, "Challenge of the Warlords," is the first mention of the Council). > > You know what? Im glad it sunk! > Alphatia was a good idea that IMO got carried too far. However, it still has a large and vocal fan base, proving that at least in the minds of some it *hasn't*/*wasn't* carried too far, and in a game that's all that really matters: if folks enjoy the existance of such a superstate (<----- I'm being very careful not to editorialize 8-)~, then that's all that matters for their campaigns. OTOH, if you have no place for such MunchVille in your own campaign, then what I'd do is just assume that the Immortals did not save Alphatia and turn it into a floating continent. Just make it *gone* from your campaign world. No biggie. Editorialism section of my screed: N.B. that even I haven't gone as far as assuming Alphatia totaly destroyed (I.E. no floating continent, just a lot of bloated sunken bodies) so far, but as Alphatia has been continuously over-agrandized in canon and elsewhere, don't think I haven't considered it. . . .Bellissaria big enough is enough; wipe 'em out elsewhere and force 'em to go through a period of rebuilding. James "Thantos" Ruhland *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:21:23 EDT From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Hey Jenn, Did you just quote Connon Chapter and Verse in support of Non-Cannon? I guess the devil really can quote scripture for her own purposes . . . the theological implications are staggering *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:23:28 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Why don`t we say that the gradual loss of mage ability in Alphatia is due to the NoS? Then we don`t have to go around making up some new stuff. Maybe WISH does grant mage ability b ut they`re the ones drained first out of population. Just an idea. <;-P ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:32:09 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) >Except that if their is no open hatch for the mage to cast the spell into, >then it won't work very well, IMO; the spell will just explode on the >outside of the tank. Neither the AD&D nor the D&D Fireball spells have much >barrier-penetrating capacity. > What about the save that the tank has to make let alone those for all the munitions which are exposed to the fireball effect? If the shell in the main gun goes thats one beat up tank. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:45:54 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!) > > > What about the save that the tank has to make let alone those for all > the munitions which are exposed to the fireball effect? If the shell in > the main gun goes thats one beat up tank. > The round is usually in the main gun for a second (or less), IIRC: a target is selected, aimed at, the type of round to be used (I.E. HEAT, HVAPFSDS, etc) is selected and loaded, the gun fired, and a new target aquired. You probably have to get lucky to hit the tank while the round is "in the chamber" as it were. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:51:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > > I see Wish as the ultimate mortal-level spell. Wouldn´t limiting the wish > > mean taking the magic away from Magic? I mean, whats good about magic is > > that you can do absolutely anything if you have the power to do so. > > > A wish is *not* omnipotent. You can't wish for anything and recieve it. For > example: > Hate to beat this up, but once you recognize something that *cannot* be > done via Wish, you have established a limit. Then the only question is > where to draw the line. 8-) You are right ofcourse. Still, I would be cautious about putting more restrictions to the wish spell than those you mention. I like to have my players gasp in awe when they learn all the amazing things a powerful wizard can accomplish. (Not that that happens alot with my players who have been doing D&D for 8+ years.) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:06:17 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability: Wishes and YOU. On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1998-09-21 06:37:31 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no > writes: > > > A side note: I really think it should be possible to raise ability scores > > though non-magical means. > > How about via an XP sacrifice? Say -- when a character reaches name level or > higher, he can sacrifice one level's worth of XPs to improve an ability score > by > one point. The wish limitations that I suggested here could be used to limit > the > use of this bonus -- the higher an ability score is, the greater the risk that > improving it further will adversely affect some other ability score. But > there > will eventually come a time when a player decides that the risk is worthwhile. I like this idea. The only problem is all the mess that comes along with going down a level. Also, dont you think this is a bit expensive? Another way to raise ability scores would be a system of training. Training could take say 1 week per point and after the period you would have to roll 1 d20. If the roll is _higher_ than the ability score, you have succeeded. Also, a trainer is required. Anyone who has had their ability scores raised by training can train others in that ability score. If you want to you can rule that a character cannot raise an ability score above 1,5x(Original ability value). Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:18:37 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >So perhaps the problem is a very complex genetic one which Mystarans >cannot picture, and therefore cannot solve through the relatively simple >application of a wish. To properly word the wish, they would have to >have a good understanding of genetics and how the specific genetic trait >that grants magic works. > What about multiple wishes? wish 1 is to make someone mage capable. wish2 why didn`t last one work. wish 3 knowledge needed to make wish 1 work wish 4 as wish 1 but now know how to do it. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:19:59 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > > >> Thought: Psionics > > > >Mysticism would be placed here aswell, unless these are the same. > > I disagree. The concept of the mystic is that the mystic relies > entirely on his/her own body, or chi, to produce these seemingly > impossible tasks. They do not rely at all on any external force or > ingredient. It is an aspect of the life-force (in fact, all sorts of > martial arts films make it a point to say that you do not think, that > thinking is what makes you hesitate and refuse to accept the "power"; > like Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try."), which, if any thing, > would seem to go under Matter. Of course, there is also negative chi, > and I'll mention that in a bit, under Entropy. Using your definition of Mysticism I would agree that Matter is more appropriate. I have always been of the opinion that Mysticicm is about mental control. Ridding yourself of every emotion and using your will to control your body. Mind over matter. This would belong to the sphere of Thought. I dont think the external/internal question is valid since the spheres exist both inside and outside us. > >Entropic Matter: Corrupt technology. Anyone know about > >Tharkholdhu Occulttech from TORG? > > I thought that Tharkhold was the best concept of a game full of > good concepts. I have a Tharkhold-like plane in my campaign, and it's a > rather nasty place no player ever wishes to go to. I think I'll > incorporate it into my next installment of "Nation Under Siege: MNN on > Assignment in Darokin". :D Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:48:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate I'm sorry, James; for once, I shall have to respectfully disagree with you. :-) Alphatia was not overdeveloped--it was UNDERDEVELOPED. I really needed its own boxed set, rather than to share time with Thyatis. The wars with Thyatis and with Glantri in canon seem contrived because there is no way that either of those two countries were a match for Alphatia. What the Empire needed was another badass nation, for some "real" competition. Since the designers (or the accounting dept :) didn't want to go that way, they killed off Alphatia in the KW to "balance" the setting. (sniff sniff) Aligning myself with the munckhin crowd (this time, at least) 8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:51:44 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? >Woah.. Could it be that the World or Skyshield effects Mystara's Physics? Then again it could be the immortal `LUDD` who has been given the job of ensuring that there is not another great rain of fire. Whenever a group reaches a sufficiently high tech ability his followers, the Luddites, are activbated and sent on a S/D mission. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:51:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri & the sanctity of canon. Yeah, I sure did quote canon to justify non-canon. What can I say? If you get it from the horse's mouth... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:40:50 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? >Then again it could be the immortal `LUDD` who has been given the job of >ensuring that there is not another great rain of fire. Whenever a group >reaches a sufficiently high tech ability his followers, the Luddites, >are activbated and sent on a S/D mission. Or maybe there's just not enough coal, oil, natural gas or uranium left on Mystara, to power large-scale tech, because Blackmoor and Evergrun already used them up. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:57:17 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > Alphatia was not overdeveloped--it was UNDERDEVELOPED. I really needed > its own boxed set, rather than to share time with Thyatis. > Actually, I agree with you. IMO, putting these places in one boxed set didn't end up doing either of them justice. And in fact I support the project that several folks on the MML are undertaking, in doing "Alphatian Gazeteers" for each Alphatian Kingdom (without nessisarily supporting the results of that project, mainly because I haven't really seen anything, and not because I'm critical of it). > > Aligning myself with the munckhin crowd (this time, at least) 8-)~ > This was what I was decrying: to the extent to which they *had* detailed it (in a somewhat attenuated fashion), they had gone overboard, in my opinon. But, as I said earlier, also, plenty of people love the "Uberstate" aspects of Alphatia (I'll have to post something regarding the type of personality that is attracted to jumping behind/supporting the most powerful, tongue in cheek of course, regarding "frontrunners", at some point, once I can dig it up). Anyhow, folks are welcomed to enjoy Alphatia. Actually, if I do decry anything it isn't so much the power of Alphatia, but the tendancy of the fans of Alphatia (including designers like Ann Dupuis) to wholely adopt the belief system of Alphatia's ruling class: that because Alphatia's society is good for spellcasters, it is good for everyone (thus we get odd/incongruous events refering to Alphatian "citizenship" and a tendancy to portray Alphatia in universally positive, progressive, "good" terms). But folk's campaigns are folk's campaigns. In mine, Thyatis (the "underdog" Empire) is the protagonist, and I do portray them in a more favorable light than TSR did in "canon". However, not in a UNIVERSALLY favorable light, because IMO it is no fun adventuring in utopia. (Btw, this also qualifys as a "ranting screed" *G). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:16:22 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Has anyone ever calculated out how many experience points it would take, to GET a thousand 36th level mages...? Or how many slain monsters, researched spells, enchanted magic items or flying castles they'd have had to slay/research/enchant/construct, in order to earn that many...? The mind boggles. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:22:17 +0000 From: Cameron Paine Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus Because to survive in an adventuring situation they had to try harder. Therefore they learned more and so they keep up with their more 'gifted' friends. If they go off to study with their masters then they will probably advance slower. Adventuring is not normal and so that's why I use the bonuses reversed. -10% for the 18's, +10% for the 3's. Remember these bonuses are absolutly no use to them as they adventure, just after. They still get the same penalties/bonuses for low/high stats as the rest. Cameron, xxx. Ezio Pignatelli wrote: > We do use that rule. I feel that it basically has two advantages: > > 1) it gives some push towards some 'realistic' choice of class for a > character of given stats. If you really want to play a dumb wizard you > can do that, of course. But most wizards have to be intelligent, and > most fighters have to be strong, and, thanx to this rule, it is this > way. > > 2) Since most experience points are awarded to the group as a whole, the > players that choosed a class suitable with their stats will advance > faster than the others. Which is reasonable, in my opinion: since they > all had the same adventures, in the same time, how would you explain the > fact that the dumb wizard is learning spells faster than the smart one? > In the same time and with the same master? > > -- > Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova > Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840 > mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat > -- > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:20:43 -0700 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - MYSTARA - XP Bonus Cameron Paine wrote: > Because to survive in an adventuring situation they had to try harder. > > Therefore they learned more and so they keep up with their more > 'gifted' friends. > > If they go off to study with their masters then they will probably > advance slower. Adventuring is not normal and so that's why I use > the bonuses reversed. -10% for the 18's, +10% for the 3's. Regardless of how hard he tries, a fighter with 3 strength has a pretty serious limitation. I think it makes the most sense to use no bonuses at all. If some characters advance more quickly or slowly than others due to their stats, then so be it. If some players try harder, they'll advance faster, regardless of what stats they have. Since you can make a pretty good argument for either position, IMO they balance each other out. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:27:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Well, James, it appears that we're not so far apart philosophically as I thought. I actually agree with you that there is more to Alphatia than the "great and wonderful and blissful and happy..." :-) state which is usually portrayed. I personally wish that more attention would have been paid to the fact that not ALL the Alphatian bad guys live in Blackheart. And I dislike the one-dimensional aspect given to much of the royal family. IMO, Tylion (whom I love) could be a real ranting maniac sometimes, Eriadna was a spoiled brat, Zandor was not mean but narcissistic (taking after grandfather??), and Ericall was proably a really nice guy, though canon saw fit to label him a useless piece of garbage just because he doesn't fit the Alphatian ideal. I don't think that any empire where slaves can be killed by any nobleman (or woman) for any reason, or none, can be portrayed as a utopia. that's just not realistic. But I am a hopeless Alphatian-ite, nonetheless! (I just make mine a little grittier). And as for Thyatis, oh James, how could you (the protagonist thing)??? (kidding!:-) Actually, IMC, Thyatis just fell a la rome (ha ha ha ha)...Oh, and one more thing, before I end this useless ramble--did you just say that you disagreed with canon Alphatia????? Ha! I shall win you over to the Dark Side after all, Luke! :-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:18:02 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions >999 flying Alphatian mages: >"AAAIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiaaaaaaiiiiiii-i-i-i-i-i-i-a-a-a-a-a-i...i...i...i.........." > Ugh. The Council might have to commission large clean-up and redecoration crews :) Probably not quite what Alphatians had in mind when they came to 'bombard' the City :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:23:26 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate >Basically because DotE says Alphatia has 1,000 36th level wizards Speaking of which, they are probably just called the "1000 Wizards", but in reality many of them are clerics, maybe a druid or two, humanoid shamans and wokani from that 'monster' kingdom (Limn?), elf shamans, and such. BTW do you think that paladins and avengers could be on the Council as well (they are technically spellcasters)? ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi Visit the Archmage's Tower at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:18:32 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > a la rome (ha ha ha ha)...Oh, and one more thing, before I end this > useless ramble--did you just say that you disagreed with canon > Alphatia????? Ha! I shall win you over to the Dark Side after all, Luke! > :-)~ > Hmmmn. . .disagree with it. . .depends on what is meant by "canon Alphatia". The Alphatia as described/outlined (remembering that an "outline" is far from a complete story/report/etc) in DotE was and is interesting, my main quibble with DotE was and is the same one you mentioned earlier: in trying to jam two big Empires (especially one as large as Alphatia) together into one boxed set, full justice was done to neither one (IMO, though, that could have been somewhat rectified if they doubled the length of the Player's Guides to each, from 32 to 64 pages, which still would have fit easily into the box). As described one (or, rather I at least felt this way) was given a good starting point, but compaired to the comprehensive detail given in other Gazetters (especially later ones: IMO, the HW Gazetters were probably the best done, from a straight completeness standpoint. . .now, where was I? Oh, ya:) compaired to other Gazetteers, a level of detail just seemed to be missing (plus, I was disapointed in the completely "Roman" nature of Thyatis as described, but rectified that myself. However we're talking here about Alphatia). As a starting point though, I found DotE's description to be fine. It left both players & DMs with strong impressions of what Alphatian society is like, what life as an Alphatian is like (at the various ends of the social spectrum), and gave *some* flavor for *most* of the kingdoms, though not enough (due to space) to really satisfy perhaps. But one could use the starting point to fill in the details by yourself, which has its blessings (drawback is that it takes time, blessing is that you can infuse it with whatever spirit you want, which IMO is a reasonable compromise between going to the monumental effort of trying to design your own game world de novo and having everything handed to you in one neat, tidy package. Perhaps in the end this is also one of the things that made my campaigns more "Empire-centered," rather than based in other nations: given just enough detail to head you on your way, but then leaving room for your own creativity. So I guess this isn't a "drawback" at all, but it was a disapointment.) My major disaffection with "canon" Alphatia was what I described earlier: the tendancy to make everything Alphatian grand and wonderful (the "Karameikos Affect"), which in the end spoiled that setting for me. Like you, the idea that all villians come from the Black Eagle Barony or from Blackheart and Esterhold, while everyone else is a pillar of virtue, just seemed. . . .uncreative. And the tendancy in later products to portray everyone as happy and well-taken care of in Alphatia and (except for Esterhold, but that problem was "solved" expeditiously) downplay/ignore the negative aspects of being a slave or wog in Alphatia. . . .again, incongruous, and IMO (and only IMO) not best for gaming. __________________ Gratuitous stiring up of discord portion of our screed follows: > realistic. But I am a hopeless Alphatian-ite, nonetheless! (I just make > mine a little grittier). And as for Thyatis, oh James, how could you > (the protagonist thing)??? (kidding!:-) Actually, IMC, Thyatis just fell > a la rome (ha ha ha ha)...Oh, and one more thing > The below may seem pointless for awhile (well, ultimately, everything I say is pointless, but humor me. . .), but I'll bring it back to the topic in the end: "There are three types of people in the civilized world. There are thouse who love the Dallas Cowboys, thouse who hate the Dallas Cowboys and thouse who don't know who or what the Dallas Cowboys are. I call these people Group A, B, and C, respectively. I have never met a Group C person, but reliable sources have informed me they do exist -- they live mostly along the west bank of the Amazon. "Group B people are paragons of mankind. They are superior in every wat to Group A and Group C. . . Group A men (except thouse living in or near Dallas, who have been brainwashed since birth and long ago lost all ability to make rational decisions) should be shunned at all costs. They are not to be trusted. . . "Let me profile the typical Group A man for you. He is a front-runner. In other sports his allegiance is pledged to the Boston Celtics, New York Yankees, [Karameikos], etc. He will be your friend as long as you are doing well and don't need him. But when the chips are down, he'll leave you faster than the city of New York abandoned the Giants for the Jets in the glory days of Broadway Joe. A Group A . . . will, for example, claim to always have been a supporter of whoever is on top at the moment. . ." (Excerpted from the Febuary 1982 issue of "Instrument & Apparatus News," by Terrence Gallagher, as sumarized in a Sports Illustrated article ["Dallas Can Have 'Em", by Paul Zimmerman], I believe in 1984 but I no longer know the issue.) Everywhere it says "Dallas" one can insert instead "Alphatia." IMO, their is no risk or challenge in championing nations like Alphatia or Karameikos. On the surface the seem very different, but are in fact similar, and IMO largely attract people of similar personalities. Karameikos may seem like a small, backwards wilderness, however its fan base, by and large, consists of people who know that nothing will ever really go wrong for Karameikos, no real hardship will be imposed on Karameikos, and furthermore they think that this is as it should be. They are front-runners. Similarly, many people are drawn to Alphatia because of its superstate status. They know Alphatia is the biggest kid on the block, the "Greatest Empire in the Known Universe, including Empires that rule entire Planes and a dozen Crystal Spheres." They believe nothing wrong can (or should) happen to Alphatia. This isn't to say *all* fans of Alphatia presisely fit that description (by stating that you're not happy with portraying Alphatia as a paragon of wonderfullness, you've already sliped slightly outside of the "Dark Side" and into the light, I'm afraid, Mrs. Guerra.) Virtually all Karameikos fans do fit the description (I have yet to find a single exception), and their are only rare exceptions to the "general rule" that proponents of Alphatia are Group A "men" (btw, appologies for the "sexist" tone of the article, I didn't write it.) Now, with all that said, the above should be taken somewhat tongue in cheek: I'm not *fully* serious about it. I do love handing people Apples of Discord and seeing where it will take them, though. Especially Stefan's Hagiographers. In no small part, my "over the top" reaction is merely an appropriate counterweight to this attitude. 8-) Plus, I do love, as I said, stiring up discord. Especially when things get too settled on the board. *_+ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #649 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, September 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 650 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Composition of Alphatia's Council. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:43:52 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Composition of Alphatia's Council. > Speaking of which, they are probably just called the "1000 Wizards", but in reality > many of them are clerics, maybe a druid or two, humanoid shamans and wokani > I know many people hold this opinion, but what in canon supports it? After all, IMO, canon is very specific in refering to it as a council of 1,000 36th level wizards, and I don't recall an exception (again, in canon). In fact, the earliest descriptions would imply that these are wizards, and there are not contingents of clerics etc.: ". . .No feewer than 1,000 36th level magic-users make up this empire's ruling council. Reliance on magical abilities, and complete confidence in the overwhelming superiority of these abilities, are hallmarks of Alphatian power." -Challenge of the Warlords (CM1), p.4 "Unlike Alphatia, Thyatis has developed upon a triad of powers. The Theocratic, magical, and military elements of the empire all share the responsibilities. . . ." -Challenge of the Warlords (CM1), p.4 Note the impication is that Alphatia relys on magical power (magic users) almost exclusively, not clerical and magical power. DotE again follows this, stating that Thyatis has developed Clerical power in addition to magical power to comphensate/counterballance for Alphatia's magical (magic-users) might. DotE (Player's Guide to Alph) also says that the "unlucky" turn to clerical magic, implying (well, not implying: outright stating) a bias/second-classed status for clerics. I can't remember anything in canon that says that the Council has numerous clerics, etc., nor do I remember a specific NPC example of a cleric (or Paladin or whoever) that is a stated as being a council member. But it *has* been awhile since I read all this stuff thouroughly, so I could be forgetting something, and would be happy to be corrected if their is evidence to the contrary. And, all that said, what the council is composed of in anyone's campaign is IMO up to them. If, as some have indicated, having it be all 36th level dudes seems too much, then change it. If one wants a council composed entirely of dwarves, then again I'd certainly be in no possition to object. However, from the standpoint of canon, I *think* (again, the qualifier, because I'm not positive) that it is 1,000 36th level magic-users, and not a diverse croud of every kind of spellcaster. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:48:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate <> Agreed. (And, on a side note, I agree as well with your sentiments that the HW Gazetteers were the best as far as thoroughness is concerned.) So, the "Karameikos Effect"? Hmm...is that an official term? Personally, I prefer the "St. Stefan Effect" ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:13:46 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [Mystara] Magic, psionics and the like. > I disagree. The concept of the mystic is that the mystic relies >entirely on his/her own body, or chi, to produce these seemingly >impossible tasks. They do not rely at all on any external force or >ingredient. It is an aspect of the life-force (in fact, all sorts of >martial arts films make it a point to say that you do not think, that >thinking is what makes you hesitate and refuse to accept the "power"; >like Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try."), which, if any thing, >would seem to go under Matter. Of course, there is also negative chi, >and I'll mention that in a bit, under Entropy. Well, it does say repeatedly in the psionics info that the psionicist does not rely on any external power, much like you say above. This Psionicist=Jedi Knight comparison, with the Jedi using an external Force, is in that respect at least misleading. The powers may be superficially similar, but the pseudoscience behind it all is completely different. Cheerz Rob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:30:43 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > So, the "Karameikos Effect"? Hmm...is that an official term? Personally, > I prefer the "St. Stefan Effect" ;-) > You know, great minds think alike. I was tempted to make snide remarks about "St. Stefan" (well, since his admirers are hagiographers, the term would be appropriate), but I was already treading on people's sacred cows enough as it was, so I curbed my behavior (yes, me, a model of self restraint. . . . .NOT!) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:36:09 EDT From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate >> "Let me profile the typical Group A man for you. He is a front-runner. In other sports his allegiance is pledged to the Boston Celtics, New York Yankees, [Karameikos], etc.>> Ack! I was a big Celtics fan and have fond memories of the "Honky Years".... I had a premonition that '86 was the end of the line, though, so I changed over my allegiance to the Bruins. I ask you to show me a measure of forgiveness, however, since I am from Boston...therefore, I automatically hate the Yankees (and I hate the Cowboys, too!). >> Karameikos may seem like a small, backwards wilderness, however its fan base, by and large, consists of people who know that nothing will ever really go wrong for Karameikos, no real hardship will be imposed on Karameikos, and furthermore they think that this is as it should be. They are front-runners.... ...Virtually all Karameikos fans do fit the description (I have yet to find a single exception), and their are only rare exceptions to the "general rule" that proponents of Alphatia are Group A "men" >> Double Ack! Karameikos has been my favorite nation since '83, when I started gaming! Granted, the state of affairs in Karameikos these days is deplorable, but hearken back to the good old days when the villainry of Bargle and the Black Eagle made life fun to live. I'm currently working on an online campaign set in what's left of the Black Eagle Barony, and I can't tell you how many times I've wished that Bargle and Ludwig were still there.... Ah, if only it bad been a group of disgruntled ORCS in AC 1010 who had kidnapped BARON VON HENDRIKS and shown him how sickly-sweet life was on the happy side of the kingdom...then maybe things would have turned out differently...then maybe Karameikos would have truly become a "Kingdom of Adventure".... I, James, am the exception to your rule about Karameikos fans. Heck, I even stir up trouble where there's none intended (witness my post a week or so back on that scandalous Aleena Halaran!). Still, I'll admit that anyone who likes the Karameikos portrayed in the AD&D boxed set needs to have his head examined. There - I've snapped at the bait. Now I'll slink back quietly to the last den of iniquity in Karameikos--the Barony of Halag. I'll see what kind of trouble the remnants of the Iron Ring can stir up, I'll smile softly in the knowledge that some of Bargle's Bugbears still stalk the northern hills, and I'll plan the changes necessary to make Karameikos fun again. Some thoughts.... 1) Kill off Terari (He swings the balance way too far in the favor of Good) 2) Kill off Teldon, too (Never really liked him :) ) 3) Let poor old Olliver Jowett die (His death and the "Holy War" that's sure to follow should've happened in the K:KoA set, IMO) 4 - My favorite and the one I'm planning to use) Have young Valen Karameikos leave home and become the new lord of the Barony of Halag. I'm even thinking of giving the lad an evil girlfriend (can you say "Bargle's apprentice?") and letting the chips fall where they may.... 5) I won't suggest killing off Stefan...he should be made to suffer a little, seeing his glorious nation falling apart at the seams :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:54:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate <> That's okay, my fellow "great mind"--I'll trample the whole herd for both of us! 8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:02:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate I like the Oliver Jowett idea, and I really like the Valen idea, but I killed Stefan (...still laughing...oh my goodness, I'm getting stomach pains...ha ha ha...:-) Hey! whaddaya' mean "kill Terari"???!!!??? Now you're killing MY sacred cow (which is not allowed; reciprocation is defeinitely not permitted here! ;-) Tylion doesn't have to die, just leave boring old Karameikos/Traladara. I don't know about the way PWA I set it up, but I had him going to Kara. after he was exiled from Alphatia thinking that he could set up a magic school and eventually wreak vengeance on Thyatis. Instead, he got to this "brave new nation" and found a backwater wilderness with a ruler who rivals his grandson (Ericall) in his leadership abilities...Oh, joy...So eventually he gets fed up and takes off... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:25:25 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Well, I cannot avoid Alphatia being my favorite nation, but I think I don´t fit in the "group A fans" from James categories, so I will write down some points on Alphatia: 1) I like Alphatian society because, if properly role-played, it gives the feel that powerful people (even 36th lvl MUs) are still human like the humblest one (care to remember the ruler of the most powerful nation -and only surviving empire- in our RW having an "improper relationship"?): they have sins and temptations, like vanity, evasion (zzonga bush), ambition, jealousy. 2) Alphatia is an ideal Utopia... in a sense: Who would not wish having a governor who can produce fabulous harvests and transport goods with a waving of his hand? If rulers were fair, everyone in Alphatia would be happy, even if they were not free: this is a deep question, does freedom bring about happines or, on the contrary, it is choice what makes man unhappy? 3) For that, Alphatia reminds me of the old USSR and Plato: rulers found a theoretically ideal system and they applied it without taking into account the basic weakness of human flesh and human nature, so it became a paragon of paradox, injustice and oppression. 4) Alphatian characters (and fans) are then my favorite not because the power they wield, but because they have the chance of observing (or role-playing) a "living portrait" of many of our own contradicitions between reality and desire, light and darkness. I think that these ideas are quite neatly delineated in DotE (Player´s Guide of Alphatia); the DM sourcebook perhaps loses many chances to continue that line because it gives material for a more or less standard D&D campaign in which PCs are supposed to be adventurers, from every character (and thence social) class, adventuring without a constant sprouting of "class fights", as well as a "home town" where people around are the "good guys". Supress this "classical-playing aids" and the material is nice, even, IMO, its presentation with Thyatis in one set. The two empires are antagonical, not only in the conception of magic vs. sword, but also in their theory of power: Alphatia is deterministic, birth and talent mean all. Thyatis, although aristocratic, too, emphasizes the role of individual initiative and freedom of choice (Thincol was the walking parangon). They can be better explained in dialectical dynamics. It also portrays a moment of Mystara history in which everything was polarized and spun around the two systems (Glantri is nothing but a "magical" version of the Thyatian conception of power: OK, you have to be a MU, but there is no establishment, only a Council comprised of individual votes; an Emperor in Glatnri would be unthinkable). This has been too long. I am planning to write these ideas as an in-character lecture from a Mystaran university, so it can ve more palatable. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:23:26 -0400 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate At 03:25 AM 9/24/98 +0200, you wrote: >1) I like Alphatian society because, if properly role-played, it gives the >feel that powerful people (even 36th lvl MUs) are still human like the >humblest one (care to remember the ruler of the most powerful nation -and >only surviving empire- in our RW having an "improper relationship"?): they >have sins and temptations, like vanity, evasion (zzonga bush), ambition, >jealousy. Power corrupts. >2) Alphatia is an ideal Utopia... in a sense: Who would not wish having a >governor who can produce fabulous harvests and transport goods with a >waving of his hand? If rulers were fair, everyone in Alphatia would be >happy, even if they were not free: this is a deep question, does freedom >bring about happines or, on the contrary, it is choice what makes man >unhappy? Freedom is illusionary. All it does is exchange one set of chains for another. The thing is to find the most comfortable chains. :) >3) For that, Alphatia reminds me of the old USSR and Plato: rulers found a >theoretically ideal system and they applied it without taking into account >the basic weakness of human flesh and human nature, so it became a paragon >of paradox, injustice and oppression. Amen! >4) Alphatian characters (and fans) are then my favorite not because the >power they wield, but because they have the chance of observing (or >role-playing) a "living portrait" of many of our own contradicitions >between reality and desire, light and darkness. > >I think that these ideas are quite neatly delineated in DotE (Player´s >Guide of Alphatia); the DM sourcebook perhaps loses many chances to >continue that line because it gives material for a more or less standard >D&D campaign in which PCs are supposed to be adventurers, from every >character (and thence social) class, adventuring without a constant >sprouting of "class fights", as well as a "home town" where people around >are the "good guys". Supress this "classical-playing aids" and the material >is nice, even, IMO, its presentation with Thyatis in one set. The two >empires are antagonical, not only in the conception of magic vs. sword, but >also in their theory of power: Alphatia is deterministic, birth and talent >mean all. Thyatis, although aristocratic, too, emphasizes the role of >individual initiative and freedom of choice (Thincol was the walking >parangon). They can be better explained in dialectical dynamics. It also >portrays a moment of Mystara history in which everything was polarized and >spun around the two systems (Glantri is nothing but a "magical" version of >the Thyatian conception of power: OK, you have to be a MU, but there is no >establishment, only a Council comprised of individual votes; an Emperor in >Glatnri would be unthinkable). > >This has been too long. I am planning to write these ideas as an >in-character lecture from a Mystaran university, so it can ve more >palatable. Cool. Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- |/ "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:27:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Andres, That was interesting. I would like to see it presented, as you said, in an in-character lecture. Any idea when we can expect it? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:28:19 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Of course, one of the few advantages of converting Mystara to AD&D is that 36th level wizards no longer have any meaning. However, we could redefine the requirements for joining the "1000 wizards" in a way that makes more sense -- say, that they must be of level 21+ (or even level 18+). Even for Alphatia it should be very difficult to assemble a thousand wizards of maximum level -- but a simple requirement that they be able to cast 9th level spells (or perhaps "True Dweomers) is much more easily verified. In D&D terms, I would simply rule that it takes a Wish to join the 1000 wizards - -- and said wish must be cast by the applicant as his own spell, not by the use of a ring or the services of a djinni. I think this ruling would limit membership on the ruling council to mages of level 33-36 and clerics of level 36. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:58:12 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate In a message dated 1998-09-23 13:24:02 Eastern Daylight Time, Valerya@webtv.net writes: > The wars with Thyatis and with Glantri in canon seem contrived because > there is no way that either of those two countries were a match for > Alphatia. What the Empire needed was another badass nation, for some > "real" competition. Since the designers (or the accounting dept :) > didn't want to go that way, they killed off Alphatia in the KW to > "balance" the setting. (sniff sniff) There was actually a very easy way to keep Alphatia in check that nobody ever bothered with. If you look at the maps of Mystara, you will notice that Alphatia is located halfway between the continents of Brun (well developed, at least in the eastern part that interacts with Alphatia) and Skothar (mostly undeveloped). Certainly Skothar must contain nations that are powerful enough to create headaches for Alphatia and divert some of the attention that they would otherwise devote to their western rivals. And all of these nations would be so remote from Brun that the western nations would not care about them -- they are a problem only for Alphatia and for one another. I am sure that the "MOrient" people can provide more details. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:58:14 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate In a message dated 1998-09-23 16:37:10 Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes: > Speaking of which, they are probably just called the "1000 Wizards", but in > reality many of them are clerics, maybe a druid or two, humanoid shamans and > wokani from that 'monster' kingdom (Limn?), elf shamans, and such. BTW do you > think that paladins and avengers could be on the Council as well (they are > technically spellcasters)? That depends on the level of magical power required -- in which case paladins, avengers, dwarf clerics, and goblinoid shamans and wokani could be disqualified because of their inability to attain a certain "ultimate" level of power. Personaally, I would favor the requirement that you "Wish" yourself onto the Council -- and make the Wish spell available to priests, at least for that purpose. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:43:48 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery In a message dated 98-09-22 03:15:01 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << >death spell snubs the life of the targets. how does it do it? magically with >necromancy. but how does it do it? what action within the targets' bodies >cause death? attack the body's enzymes? cause internal hemoraging? what cause >would a coroner place as a cause of death? that's what i mean by the death >spell being an equivelent to a bio/chem weapon. both cause death within a >given area. death is quick and leaves no entry wound ie its internal. > Death spell causes the target to "never be raised or resurrected". In other words, it doesnt affect the body at all, it effects the soul (In the Complete Book of Necromancers it is explained that this is why the spell should be considered forbidden "evil magic" - it destroys their immortal soul. No heaven for the victims of this spell!) I have always said that a victim slain by death spell has no marks of injury upon him, he is just dead. As an attack against the victims soul, there would be no physical damage at all. The coroner would just have to say "one second he was alive, next second he wasnt, and it beats me as to why...". Their life force has been snuffed... Death spell is nasty. Note that victims of this couldnt have speak with dead cast upon them either, or anything like that... >> okay...i don't have CBoN so my statements were limited to the spell description in the PHB. the stated need for a Wish to revive was attributed to the massive internal and widespread damage to the organs and the general metabolism of the affected. however, the CBoN info brings up another point to ponder. if the death spell is so forbidden and looked down upon, then just how often can it be expected to be used? at the most mages specializing in necromancy. not exactly the most popular school of magic for the patriotic mage. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:43:59 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Glantri questions In a message dated 98-09-22 14:58:39 EDT, Valerya@webtv.net writes: << Could it have happened this way: 1) Alphatians teleport over Glantri City and begin their attack 2) (Taking the "Rad regretfully activates the Doomsday Weapon" option) Rad doesn't actually activate the weapon until he sees the destruction wrought by the Alphatians on Glantri City (he waits till the smoke clears). Enraged, he activates the device. 3) The Alphatians would have done a "hit-and-run," since Glantrian mages are fully capable of retaliating. They've already "run" (teleported away) by the time the smoke clears and Rad goes ballistic. 4) So here are our 1,000 Alphatian mages, just getting home for a nice stiff drink and a pat on the back for a job well done, when they suddenly find themselves wishing they'd taken those swimming lessons after all... :-)>> the event description for the mages over glantri vary for campaigns. their attack can even be used to explain the doomsday weapon activating. so the activation was scripted to occur no matter what. i've never played out wrath and probably won't anytime soon. however, from the giving text the mages attacked laying waste to glantri city. the doomsday weapon was initiated and alphatia sank. imo the mages were still overhead of glantri. therefore they are still on the surface world. so the question then becomes why didn't the mages finish off glantri? probably the same reason that the alphatian armies didn't. with a huge assault force on brun and even with half of the council, glantri would have been history. imo the intention was to have the majority of the mages teleport back to alphatia and therefore be lost with the continent and subsequently revived within the HW. wrath was designed to remove alphatia from the known world. heck...even the glantrians of alphatian heritage were removed. they went so far as to knock off the alphatian side in jaggar's family. with wrath done there were left numerous problems. imo more problems were left than any potential problems that alphatia presented to prewrath mystara. the real sad thing about wrath is that the war and losses were all for nothing. the danger of the radiance was never resolved. imo the main thing wrath did was bring karameikos into the worldly theater. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:46:44 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery >however, the CBoN info brings up another point to ponder. if the death spell >is so forbidden and looked down upon, then just how often can it be expected >to be used? at the most mages specializing in necromancy. not exactly the most >popular school of magic for the patriotic mage. I agree with that. The necromancer is supposed to be some dodgy Landryn Teriak type of guy, out in his tower in the middle of nowhere. Death spell is one of these Black Necromancy spells where your soul is at risk if you cast it... None of my high level mages have it in their spell books... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:12:17 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >>And it all depends on where you construct your abode. Not too many >wizards around the polar icecap, I guess :) > > Sadly, there are no polar icecaps on Mystara, and WoTI removed that >little loop-hole by stating there must be some minimum number. > However that was only 6 IIrc so if on your planar jaunts you find a nice little unocupied plane and change that and train your apprentices there. When comes time to battle you just tell them its a special graduation exercise with nice presents for them such as raise dead fully if they die and this nice magic item you`ve been working on for the best of them, and some other goodies for the rest it`s a lot easier to become a `Paragon`. Mind you with this much forethought maybe there`s a chance to be an `Epic Hero`. The ultimate has to be though the `Polymath` who due to the way things work out in their other lives actually completes all the four paths to immortality. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:45:59 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability >Simple. They've got 18 Int, so they realize that there're better uses for a >Wish than rising all your scores. >Don't ask me which uses though, I've not 18 Int :-) > Actually if you intend to become an immortal (gold box) it`s a great idea since you otherwise have to spend PP to get yiour stats up to the required minimums for advancement. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:14:29 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Morality and Immortality >Entropy has to balance the spheres. That's why it is there. > This is why big `T` is a bad choice as high muckymuck. He wants to win the game not just keep playing forever. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:05:25 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic >Such a haughtiness wil cause the death of many proud tankers and elite >infantry soldiers. :-) > >The point is: When their neighbours are unable to grasp the Ethengarian way >of life non-Mystarans would not be able to likewise. After some weeks the >tanker crews will learn not to leave their vessel when being on the Sea of >Grass (not that they are completely safe inside). > I, reluctantly, have to agree. Alll those brataks who are `caught` and become camp followers, shamans conjuring up the very spirits of the land itself, hakamons doing what hakomons usually do but to non-ethengars for a change,horse warriors stripping the dead of weapons and after a few words with the clerics using them, clerics communing with there patrons for information e.g. how does this work? where will the enemy camp (send the brataks there to poison the water get caught in order to escape etc.). In fact probably at least one clan will agree to become vassals of the all conquering invaders on direct orders of the golden kahn just to get access to this stuff. Plus dwarve sappers. the list goes on and on ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:35:39 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines (Original work by Daniel Boese) A quick list of the Dragon Magazines which mention Mystara: The first column is the issue #, the second which part of the Princess Ark saga (if any) it contains, and the 3rd the subject of whatever's in it. 148 - "Around the World in 36 Levels" 153 1 1964: Nyxmir 11, 1965: Alphamir 15, Sulamir 10, 25, Sudmir 3, 25, 26, Vertmir 1, 4 154 2 1965: Vertmir 7, 17, 18, Tsalmir 8, 11, 18 155 3 1965: Tsalmir 19-Andrumir 11 156 4 1965: Andrumir 12, 24, 26, 28, Cyprimir 1 157 5 1965: Cyprimir 10, 16, 18-21, 24, 25 (Vulture Peninsula) 158 6 1965: Hastmir 4, 6-8, 16, 17, 25 (Vulture Peninsula/ N'djatwa) 160 7 1965: Hastmir 26-Eimir 15 (Myoshima/The Second Moon) 161 8 1965: Eimir 16-18, 22-26, Burymir 1-5, 12, 19, 26, Nyxmir 5, 12, 15, 16, 19, 21-25 (Trench of Ka/White Peninsula, monster: Vulcanian sloth) 162 9 1965: Nyxmir 26, 28, Amphmir 3, 5, 7-12, 16-18, 22 (Oostdok trade houses) 163 10 1965: Amphimir 23-26, 28, 1966: Alphamir 15, 19-25 (monster: night dragon) 164 11 ? (hero: Haldemar of Haaken (mage), hero: Talasar Ecbashur (cleric), monster: sky wyrm) 165 12 2000: Sulamir 26, Sudmir 17, 19, 20, 25, 26 (Isle of Dawn, hero: Myojo Katamura (fighter), hero: Abovombe (fighter), hero: Nabonidus Raman (mage) ) 166 13 2000: Vertmir 11, 13, 15, 16, 28, Tsalmir 1-5 (Kingdom of Emerond) 167 14 2000: Tsalmir 8-12 (Thothian enchantment, heroine: Ashari Sunlil (thief), hero: Tarias of Arogansa (fighter), hero: Leo of Le Nerviens (gnome), hero: Ramissur Zumrulim (mage) ) 168 15 2000: Tsalmir 12, 16, 17, 20-22 (Deck plans) 169 16 2000: Tsalmir 23-26, 28, Andrumir 4, 8, 12, 14-19 (Kingdom of Sind) 170 17 2000: Cyprimir 12, 18. 24-28 (Yavdlom Divinarchy, map errata: Kingdom of Sind) 171 18 2000: Hastmir 1, 3-5, 10, 16-18, 24 (Savage Coast, Slagovich, seed of cinnabar, cinnabryl) (dragons/dragon kingdoms) (review: B11, B12, DDA1, DDA2) 172 19 2000: Hastmir 25-28, Eimir 1 (essence of cinnabar, cinnabryl, Hule) 173 20 2000: Eimir 5 (Hule) 174 21 2000: Eimir 7-10 (monster: errant soul, The Savage Baronies) 175 22 2000: Eimir 12-15, 22 (The Savage Coast, Almarron, Gargona, Guadalante, Saragon) 176 23 2000: Eimir 24, 25, 28, Burymir 1, 3-5, 8 (Claw Peninsula) 177 24 2000: Burymir 14-18, 20 (Confederated Kingdom of Robrenn) (review: Rules Cyclopedia) 178 25 2000: Burymir 23-28 (Kingdom of Eusedria) 179 26 2000: Burymir 28, 2001: Nyxmir 1-3, 6-10 (Kingdom of Renardy) 180 27 2000: Nyxmir 18-20, 22, 23 (Kingdom of Bellayne, Limbo) 181 28 2000: Nyxmir 24-28, Amphimir 1-5 (Kingdom of Bellayne) 182 29 - (miscellany) 183 30 2001: Amphimir 11, 13-15 (Lands of the Great Magus, Magocracy of Herath) 184 31 - (miscellany) 185 32 2001: Amphimir 23-25, Alphamir 4, 8-11, 13, 14 (Squamous Kingdoms, Ah'roog City, Kingdom of Ator, Bayou, Kingdom of Cay, Tu'eth City) 186 33 2001: Alphamir 17-21 (Land of Wallera) 187 34 - (retainer costs/fief-holder income) 188 35 2001: Alphamir 25-28, Sulamir 1 (phanatons/Land of Jibaru) 189 - Known World Grimoire (economics/population/food/terrain) 190 - Known World Grimoire (population/growth/deforestation/mining) 191 - Grimoire: armies and warfare New D&D equipment 192 - Grimoire: manscorpions of Nimmur 193 - Grimoire: castle design/servents/operation 194 - Grimoire: advice 196 - Grimoire: Dark Jungle pantheon/Orc's Head Peninsula 197 - Grimoire: AD&D conversion, misc 199 - Grimoire: heraldry; combat: gunpowder/ballista/siege weapons 200 - lords of the skies/Aeryl/Eshu/Ee'aar 206 - "Karameikos, Ho!" 207 - The Magic of Karameikos 216 - Bazaar of the Bizarre (Limited collector's editions of the works of Bargle the infamous) 237 - Campaign Classics: Lupins of the Mystara setting 247 - Rakasta of Mystara ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #650 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, September 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 651 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Karameikos (was: - Alphatia the Uberstate) Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards [MYSTARA] - The Grand Council of Alphatia [reposted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:45:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines At 02:35 PM 9/24/98 +0200, you wrote: >(Original work by Daniel Boese) > > A quick list of the Dragon Magazines which mention Mystara: The first >column is the issue #, the second which part of the Princess Ark saga (if >any) it contains, and the 3rd the subject of whatever's in it. > >170 17 2000: Cyprimir 12, 18. 24-28 (Yavdlom Divinarchy, map > errata: Kingdom of Sind) There's information on dragon life cycles in #170 as well. And if you're listing articles that are strictly about D&D (not necessarily Mystaran) rules, #109 has an excellent article on customizing character classes, while #118 has an article on playing Neanderthals with D&D rules. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:59:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Karameikos (was: - Alphatia the Uberstate) On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 Demmero@aol.com wrote: > 1) Kill off Terari (He swings the balance way too far in the favor of Good) I'd keep him, or maybe send him off elsewhere. > 2) Kill off Teldon, too (Never really liked him :) ) Teldon seems to be missing at the moment anyway. > 3) Let poor old Olliver Jowett die (His death and the "Holy War" that's sure > to follow should've happened in the K:KoA set, IMO) Yes. This is bound to happen eventually. (Though some Mystarans seem to live for quite some time). Actually I see this as Stefans final test. If he can survive this disaster, then he has truly forged a kingdom. Originally I was planning to have Thyatis reconquer Karameikos, but I've started to like Stefan, especially after I decided that he is in fact Halav (IMC ofcourse). > 4 - My favorite and the one I'm planning to use) Have young Valen Karameikos > leave home and become the new lord of the Barony of Halag. I'm even thinking > of giving the lad an evil girlfriend (can you say "Bargle's apprentice?") and > letting the chips fall where they may.... Great Idea! I especially like the evil girlfriend-thingy. Seems like Valen has inherited his fathers inability to notice malice in those close to him. How about having this girlfriend be the daughter of Illiana Penhaligion (From "DA2 Queens Harvest). That would give her a claim to noble blood and would make a marriage more acceptable. Lets restore the Black Eagle Barony to its former glory. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas Wambaugh, Picket Fences. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:49:47 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Karameikos > > Ack! I was a big Celtics fan and have fond memories of the "Honky Years".... > I had a premonition that '86 was the end of the line, though, so I changed > over my allegiance to the Bruins. > Evidence. . . > Double Ack! Karameikos has been my favorite nation since '83, when I started > gaming! I, James, am the exception to your rule about Karameikos fans. > Heck, I even > stir up trouble where there's none intended (witness my post a week or so back > on that scandalous Aleena Halaran!). Still, I'll admit that anyone who likes > the Karameikos portrayed in the AD&D boxed set needs to have his head > examined. > You are granted a dispensation 8-)~ The below ideas were all good, btw. 8-) > 1) Kill off Terari (He swings the balance way too far in the favor of Good) > 2) Kill off Teldon, too (Never really liked him :) ) > 3) Let poor old Olliver Jowett die (His death and the "Holy War" that's sure > to follow should've happened in the K:KoA set, IMO) > 4 - My favorite and the one I'm planning to use) Have young Valen Karameikos > leave home and become the new lord of the Barony of Halag. I'm even thinking > of giving the lad an evil girlfriend (can you say "Bargle's apprentice?") and > letting the chips fall where they may.... > 5) I won't suggest killing off Stefan...he should be made to suffer a little, > seeing his glorious nation falling apart at the seams :) > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:05:57 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Ahh, looks like my nefarious plan worked, and I've provoked a large response (btw, to Andrew Toth, the Lord Acton quote is: "power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." I'm enough of a pedant that it semi-annoys me that the all-important "tends" is often left out of the quote.) > > 1) I like Alphatian society because, if properly role-played, it gives the > feel that powerful people (even 36th lvl MUs) are still human like the > humblest one (care to remember the ruler of the most powerful nation -and > only surviving empire- in our RW having an "improper relationship"?): they > have sins and temptations, like vanity, evasion (zzonga bush), ambition, > jealousy. > Yep. One of the things I liked about the DotE was the ability to play "high level campaigns" and still have a challenge. > 2) Alphatia is an ideal Utopia... in a sense: Who would not wish having a > governor who can produce fabulous harvests and transport goods with a > waving of his hand? If rulers were fair, everyone in Alphatia would be > happy, even if they were not free: this is a deep question, does freedom > bring about happines or, on the contrary, it is choice what makes man > unhappy? > The above, however, is cow manure. It is simply wrong to believe that Alphatia is any kind of utopia, and how you could get the impression from DotE that the rulers even strive to be fair and concientious is beyond my comprehension. And the much-lauded "Alphatian Freedom" is, for the bulk of the population, meaningless: the only people who are free in any sense of the word are the spellcasters ("Alphatians, as a people -- their ruling classes, anyway -- are chaotic, free, and individual. They believe in freedom of thought and choice. . .but *only* for thouse brivileged enough to wield magic. Thouse who cannot utilize any sort of magic are destined to serve in one fashion or another." DotE, P 13.) Seems you are Group A after all, unfortunately. . . .(just jokin with you). > 3) For that, Alphatia reminds me of the old USSR and Plato: rulers found a > theoretically ideal system and they applied it without taking into account > the basic weakness of human flesh and human nature, so it became a paragon > of paradox, injustice and oppression. > Some of that seems somewhat accurate, however I'm not sure to what extent Alphatia's rulers even strive for an ideal system for anyone but themselves. > 4) Alphatian characters (and fans) are then my favorite not because the > power they wield, but because they have the chance of observing (or > role-playing) a "living portrait" of many of our own contradicitions > between reality and desire, light and darkness. > The above is true of any character and campaign, properly role played, IMO. Perhaps these themes are more highlighted/pronounced in an Alphatian campaign, though, but I wouldn't press it too far. The below is an interesting theory of the dynamics of the two Empires and I'll have to ponder it, and like others I am anxiously awaiting the IC lecture. 8-) > I think that these ideas are quite neatly delineated in DotE (Player´s > Guide of Alphatia); the DM sourcebook perhaps loses many chances to > continue that line because it gives material for a more or less standard > D&D campaign in which PCs are supposed to be adventurers, from every > character (and thence social) class, adventuring without a constant > sprouting of "class fights", as well as a "home town" where people around > are the "good guys". Supress this "classical-playing aids" and the material > is nice, even, IMO, its presentation with Thyatis in one set. The two > empires are antagonical, not only in the conception of magic vs. sword, but > also in their theory of power: Alphatia is deterministic, birth and talent > mean all. Thyatis, although aristocratic, too, emphasizes the role of > individual initiative and freedom of choice (Thincol was the walking > parangon). They can be better explained in dialectical dynamics. It also > portrays a moment of Mystara history in which everything was polarized and > spun around the two systems (Glantri is nothing but a "magical" version of > the Thyatian conception of power: OK, you have to be a MU, but there is no > establishment, only a Council comprised of individual votes; an Emperor in > Glatnri would be unthinkable). > > This has been too long. I am planning to write these ideas as an > in-character lecture from a Mystaran university, so it can ve more > palatable. > > > Andrés > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:09:49 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > Of course, one of the few advantages of converting Mystara to AD&D is that > 36th level wizards no longer have any meaning. > Well, the "straight conversion" makes all 36th level characters 20th level according to the "standard" conversion rules, so that's what I generally assume. > undeveloped). Certainly Skothar must contain nations that are powerful > enough to create headaches for Alphatia and divert some of the attention > that they would otherwise devote to their western rivals. And all of these > nations would be so remote from Brun that the western nations would not > care about them -- they are a problem only for Alphatia and for one another. > Well, Thonia might be one such nation. Yes, it is a arctic shambles, a shadow of it's former self. But it is older than Blackmoor, and thus, like Thothia on the IoD, might have scattered ancient magics and artifacts lying around, which would be both objects of envy and covetousness to excite Alphatian interest and impediments to their aquisition ("so close, and yet so far. . . . .") *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:00:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Can anyone direct me to information on Thothia, beyond what is given in DotE and PWA (have III, planning now to buy I and II ASAP:-)? Thanks, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:15:47 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > I'm sorry, James; for once, I shall have to respectfully disagree with > you. :-) > > Alphatia was not overdeveloped--it was UNDERDEVELOPED. I really needed > its own boxed set, rather than to share time with Thyatis. > > The wars with Thyatis and with Glantri in canon seem contrived because > there is no way that either of those two countries were a match for > Alphatia. What the Empire needed was another badass nation, for some > "real" competition. Since the designers (or the accounting dept :) > didn't want to go that way, they killed off Alphatia in the KW to > "balance" the setting. (sniff sniff) > > Aligning myself with the munckhin crowd (this time, at least) 8-)~ > > Jenn Good, this charming spell finally works correct... :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:05:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia > > Can anyone direct me to information on Thothia, beyond what is given in > DotE and PWA (have III, planning now to buy I and II ASAP:-)? Thanks, > Best info for Thothia outside of the above accessories is in M3, Isle of Night. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:05:13 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia > > Can anyone direct me to information on Thothia, beyond what is given in > DotE and PWA (have III, planning now to buy I and II ASAP:-)? Thanks, > Best info for Thothia outside of the above accessories is in M3, Isle of Night. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:07:09 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > > > Aligning myself with the munckhin crowd (this time, at least) 8-)~ > > > > Good, this charming spell finally works correct... :-) > LOL. Should say "excellent. . ." (M. Burns voice) when you do that, though. *G* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:56:47 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK > Actually, I agree with you. IMO, putting these places in one boxed set > didn't end up doing either of them justice. And in fact I support the > project that several folks on the MML are undertaking, in doing "Alphatian > Gazeteers" for each Alphatian Kingdom (without nessisarily supporting the > results of that project, mainly because I haven't really seen anything, and > not because I'm critical of it). Take a look at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan http://members.aol.com/CpEbenezum > This was what I was decrying: to the extent to which they *had* detailed > (Btw, this also qualifys as a "ranting screed" *G). The big point for Alphatia: All goes! But to say that Alphatia is good for all its citizen has the same quality as saying that the USA is good for all its citizen. USA is good for the rich and white, but not so good for the Indians, the Blacks, the Mexikans and some more. Especially the latter constantly stream into the land even if they as illegal aliens are 3rd class citizen. Likewise Alphatia is good for spellcasters, and much worse for all other, but it is a big and rich land with many possibilities. Perhaps the medical care for Alphatian slaves is better than for Thyatian commoners, and they might get for food. What I have in mind for the might Alphatian Imperial Navy is that nobles are promoted much more quickly, of course. This can even mean that the captain of ship is a terrible seaman who has to rely on his (probably common) first officer. Similar constellations are known about the British Royal Navy in the 18th and 19th century. BTW, in this time it was usual that a noble "gentleman" could do with a simple peasant girl what he wanted. Nevertheless the most English commoners wouldn't have wished to live in France. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:01:38 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > Speaking of which, they are probably just called the "1000 Wizards", but in reality many of them are clerics, maybe a druid or two, humanoid shamans and wokani from that 'monster' kingdom (Limn?), elf shamans, and such. BTW do you think that paladins and avengers could be on the Council as well (they are technically spellcasters)? I don't believe that there is a druid in the GC, as the number of level 36 druid is very limited. I'm thinking about sending one great druid into the council, being the Grand Druid of the Isles (Alphatia, Bellissaria, Isle of Dawn, Oceania, Cestia). Paladins and avengers? If they are level 36 and have a wisdom of 13 or higher to cast spells, of course. Look for my next mail... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:09:10 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > "There are three types of people in the civilized world. There are thouse > who love the Dallas Cowboys, thouse who hate the Dallas Cowboys and thouse > who don't know who or what the Dallas Cowboys are. I call these people > Group A, B, and C, respectively. I have never met a Group C person, but > reliable sources have informed me they do exist -- they live mostly along > the west bank of the Amazon. What are the Dallas Cowboys? A football, baseball, basketball or icehockey team? Jamuga Khan "In Real Life living on the west bank of the Rhein, more or less." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:25:37 EDT From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia In a message dated 9/24/98 9:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Valerya@webtv.net writes: << Can anyone direct me to information on Thothia, beyond what is given in DotE and PWA (have III, planning now to buy I and II ASAP:-)? Thanks, Jenn >> Probably the best source for Thothia information (beyond those you mentioned) is M5 Talons of Night, which takes place primarily in Thothia. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:34:50 EDT From: Neal Daskal Subject: [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards Someone, James Ruhland I think, mentioned that he knew of no "canon" source for describing the Council as anything other than 1000 36th level Mages. I recall, however, in the discussion of Alphatian history from the Alphatia Player's Handbook in DotE that at one time there were not enough Wizards of sufficiently level to complete such a Council. Someone who cared could use this as a precedent for a Council of arbitrary composition. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:38:43 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia > > Probably the best source for Thothia information (beyond those you mentioned) > is M5 Talons of Night, which takes place primarily in Thothia. > Oh, yah; that's the module I was thinking of. Lets see, I only got wrong: # 3 instead of #5 Talons instead of Island. (accuracy="poor") *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:40:42 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate > > What are the Dallas Cowboys? A football, baseball, basketball or > icehockey team? > They are a Hardball team from the "Dallas" Ward of Stonewall/Draco. 8-)~ (actually, Amer. Football/NFL, but I didn't want to be completely off topic. . .again. . .) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:48:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! > > Take a look at > I will when I have a chance, but I'm kind of keeping myself from snooping around too much while I do some of my own Thy-related stuff, since I don't want to "bogart" anyone's ideas. For now I'm keeping my head clear (No, not *empty*, just clear. . .though some might think the other word also applys). > > But to say that Alphatia is good for all its citizen has the same > quality as saying that the USA is good for all its citizen. > Perhaps circa 19th century, especially during the period when only landowners were permited to vote, this could apply. IMO, sometimes the similarities between modern Amer & Alph. are over-emphasised. I.E. it would be like me saying Hattias resembles Germany because both are full of NAZI skinheads and "guestworkers" (foreigners) are treated with utter contempt. It would be a complete distortion to say that the FRG was like Hattias in that way. > > Likewise Alphatia is good for spellcasters, and much worse for > all other, but it is a big and rich land with many possibilities. > Perhaps the medical care for Alphatian slaves is better than for > Thyatian commoners, and they might get for food. > Key words of course being "perhaps" and "might", since by law Thyatian slaves have far more protections (I.E. any) than Alphatian slaves do. In Alphatia it would depend highly upon the personality of the owner, while in Thyatis treatment depends on the quality (or lack theirof) of the enforcement of the legal protections/limits on mistreatement (and we all know corruption is rife, so I'm not kidding myself, but neither should Alphatiaphiles kid themselves that Alphatian slaves are well treated and happy). > What I have in mind for the might Alphatian Imperial Navy is > that nobles are promoted much more quickly, of course. > > An excellent point, though IMO a problem (the "gentleman officer" trap) that both Empires are probably prone to experience. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:52:59 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia I think you mean Talons of Night. James Ruhland wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone direct me to information on Thothia, beyond what is given in > > DotE and PWA (have III, planning now to buy I and II ASAP:-)? Thanks, > > > Best info for Thothia outside of the above accessories is in M3, Isle of > Night. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:50:59 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards > > Someone, James Ruhland I think, mentioned that > he knew of no "canon" source for describing the Council as > anything other than 1000 36th level Mages. I recall, > however, in the discussion of Alphatian history from the > Alphatia Player's Handbook in DotE that at one time there > were not enough Wizards of sufficiently level to complete > such a Council. > Yep; that was during the 1st decline, right before thouse barbarian rabble stired up all that trouble and ruined the big millenium celebration. > Someone who cared could use this as a > precedent for a Council of arbitrary composition. > That was one of my point. Of course, it would be counter-canon, but I'm trying to subvert everyone into overthrowing canon anyhow, so. . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:04:33 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Grand Council of Alphatia [reposted] Here is my article about the Grand Council of Alphatia, which I have posted earlier (at least I believe that I have done it). ==================================================== The Grand Council of Alphatia written by Jamuga Khan The Grand Council of Alphatia consists of 1000 members. An aspiring member has to fulfill two qualifications: He must have the ability to cast magical spells and he must be of level 36. Fulfilling these requirements does not guarantee candidacy. First there must be a free place in the Council, second he must be elected. This is not done through a popular vote, but by a difficult and intricate procedure. First the empress (or emperor) has the right to propose a candidate. If she does not want to use this right, every member of the Grand Council has the right to propose one. Now this man or woman will be examined by the Committee for Internal Affairs. Should there be more than one at a time, the CIA will decide in which ranking the candidates will be examined. The candidate has to prove that he is a spellcaster and of level 36, willing to work for the Empire, being faithful to the Empire and simply a good future Member of the Grand Council (MGC).To achieve this the speaker and the members of the CIA will ask many questions until they are content. The ability check is done free-style. When the candidate can convince the CIA, the matter is settled. After finishing this procedure the candidate will introduce himself to the GC. Besides he will try to collect as many votes as possible, by promises, friendships or bribery. Finally there will be an election in the GC. The absolute majority of all voting MGCs is necessary to be elected. There is no minimum for the number of voting members. When 60 out of 1000 members are present and voting and 35 vote for a candidate he is elected. With more than one candidate the one with the fewest votes is rejected and the next vote can begin. Should a single candidate not get the majority for three times in a row he is rejected too. In the event of a tie the president of the Grand Council will make his decision. The empress has the right to propose three candidates, one after another. Should she do this and all are rejected by the Council, every member has again the right for a proposal. The empress can even choose not to use her first-choice right, but to propose a candidate who has to compete with other candidates. The whole procedure can be much simpler too. When Tylion IV, former emperor of Alphatia, were elected into the Grand Council, he was examined by the CIA in one minute during a session of the Council and he was elected by simple acclamation afterwards. This could work because a big number of MGCs had already worked for him in the background for more than three months before even proposing him a candidate. The tasks of the GC are to examine the current state of the Empire, to develope laws, to administer the finances and the military. The empress had the right to rule the Empire in her own will, but in reality nobody really could do this. She has the right to counter any decision made by the GC, but in the long run she would have to step down because the GC would stop performing its function. This was what happened to emperor Tylion IV. During the Spike Attack he ignored some advices of the GC and when he finally lost the war he lost the assistance of the GC too. Of course, despite having the honour of belonging to the Grand Council, most members are seldom present at the sessions. Every member gets some payment for attending the sessions, but normally there are no more than 200 members present. Additionally members of the Grand Council get free entry on many occasions, many invitations to parties, well paid speeches, and so on. On the other hand there are some exceptions as the members with special positions do more work. These members often belong to one of the committees. Other positions are usually only temporary, like a special emissary. One such special emissary has been the mage Halzunthram who was ordered to conquer the Flaems in the Highlands. Naturally most work is done by these committees, as the GC is simply too big for the day-to-day work, and some important question for Alphatia has been answered in one of those. One of the most important is the Committee of Internal Affairs (CIA), which controls the police, the judiciary, the Council itself and some more. Other committees are the Committee of Imperial Finances (CIF), the Committee of Alphatian Defense (CAD), lesser important the Committee of Expansion and Colonization (CEC), the Committee for Science and Education (CSE), the Committee of Foreign Affairs (CFA) and the Committee for National Health (CNH), which controls the Alphatian Center of Disease Control (ACDC). The names of these committees were developed over the centuries and differ in their construction simply because the creators wanted it this way. The committees have about 10 members with the CIA on the top with about 20 and the CFA at the bottom with only 4 member. The number depends on the budget. When a committee decides to need more members it will have to negotiate with the CFI and the empress, the CFI itself with the CIA and the empress. When a committee has found an apppropiate candidate it will come to an election. Again the absolute majority of the voting members is necessary. The membership in a committee will last for life, but there is no maximum to this number. Each member of the GC has his own office, but the committee members will get adjacent ones which are better eqipped, of course. From time to time it is necessary to make reports to the GC about the results and ongoing projects. Written copies will be sent to the empress, too. Of course, the GC administration is a huge business as there are approximatedly ten to fifteen employees on each member of the Grand Council. In the buildings of the GC are some excellent libraries and laboratories which are opened to some employees and all members of the GC. Quite a number of the GC staff is working abroad, collecting informations, supervising projects, and so forth. Among these are the intelligence services. The three great committees have some, of course, the civil Alphatian Security Agency (ASA) from the CIA, the Naval Intelligence Service (NIS) and the Military Intelligence and Protection Service (MIPS) from the CAD, and the Bureau of Investigation for Tax Offences (BITO) from the CFI. More than once in the past members of the services has clashed. In AY 2009/2010 the number of the members were reduced dramatically. Many members died during the wars and were not resurrected during the panicked days that followed. Other remained in the Outer World, like ex-emperor Tylion. Only half of the number remained, one great hindrance to reestablish a working government. New names appeared, new members or old members who volunteered to bear more responsibility. In AY 2014 the Grand Council achieved to solve the most urgent problems, but there are still more than 200 positions empty in the ranks which have to be filled over the coming years. Some members are reported to be alive but left in the Outer World. The GC has not decided to replace those but the matter is not yet settled finally. The Factions Although it is difficult to find two wizards who share one opinion - somebody who knows Glantri would even deny the possibility - there are some factions in Grand Council of Alphatia, groups of members who have common interests. Indeed there is a great number of those. Some are small, some have quite a number of members. Among the greatest are the Party of Blue Wheels (PBW), the Party of Red Maces (PRM) and Brothers of Greenwood (BoG). Smaller factions are the Party of Azure Wave (PAW), Party of Black Tower (PBT), Party of White Tower (PWT), Party of Rainbow Tower (PRT) and the Imperial Tourist Unionists (ITU). The main goals of these factions will be explained later. A candidate need not to say what party he wants to join, he is not obliged to join one neither. The mighty CIA isn't even allowed to ask. Of course the Blue Wheels which dominates the CIA for over a millenium now would like to reject all candidates not inclined to their ranks. But the last time they tried it all their candidates were rejected during the elections. This tie became a political crisis until emperor Tylion II decided to disallow the question, and all parties could live with that. Once a candidate has become a MGC he will have to decide whether he joins a party or stays independent. A seat in one of the committees is normally only then possible when the member belongs to the party which controls the committee. This is of course not a strict rule. PBW: The Blue Wheels are the oldest and greatest of the GC factions. They have between a fifth and a fourth of the seats and dominate the CIA, the CFA and the CEC, plus a minority in th CIF. It consists mostly of mages and is a bunch of traditionalists. They think that Alphatia is good enough as it is, because it serves all needs of the mages. Nothing should be changed, and the primitive foreign countries can be left alone. Some Blue Wheels are going so far that they want to restrict the nobility to mages, but they do not have a majority within the party. Since the Blue Wheels have won the control over the CEC, the development of new colonies has dramatically decreased. Their greatest, though mostly friendly (no more than one or two duels per year), foe are the Red Maces. PRM: The Red Maces consist to over 60 percent of clerics with a few numbers of paladins and avengers. They were founded by some blood-thirsty war-clerics but are now far from being fanatics. Most clerical members joined the ranks to oppose the Blue Wheels. They are interested in war, scholarship and health. The Red Maces dominate the the CAD, the CSE and are minorities in the CNH and CIF. They have between 150 and 200 seats. BoG: The Brothers of Greenwood are interested in the preservation of the woods and originated from Foresthome. A problem is arising in the last decades. More and more the female members are discontented with the name, they have even threatened to found the Sisters of Greenwood when not a new name would be chosen. This dispute is far from being settled. The Brothers (and Sisters?) of Greenwood are the majority in the CNH and a minority in the CIF, including the speaker of the CIF. The BoG never had more than 100 seats in the GC. PAW: The Party of Azure Wave is a very small one as it has only five members in the Grand Council. They do not have too much influence, but even only one political goal: They want to construct a system of water channels throughout the Empire to connect the various rivers and lakes. One thing is special about the Azure Waves: As members of the Order of the Lakes, an organization interested in shipping the inland and coastal waterways on galleys, they are assigned to the Grand Council to fight for the goals of their order. So these five are always present and in the past they were able to decide some elections, when there was only a small numer present. Their plan is to get enough support from other parties by assisting them in matters importing for those. One member has even got a call into the CIF. PBT: The Party of Black Tower wants to legalize all kind of magical researches as it is already in the kingdom of Blackheart. Their enemies are the White Towers. PWT: The Party of the White Tower is opposed to the Black Towers and wants to criminalize unethical magical research, such as practiced in Blackheart, throughout the Empire. PRT: The Party of Rainbow Tower was founded by a mage who was both annoyed and amused about the both Tower parties. The goals of the Rainbow Towers are to maintain the status quo, and to show the rest of the GC how ridiculous the parties of the Black and White Towers really are. The first and constant joke of this party is its name, of course. Since the founding of of the PRT, nobody has ever wanted to introduce another party upon a coloured tower. ITU: The Imperial Tourist Unionists demands to develop the whole Empire as a tourist center as it has be done with Gaity and Arongansa. They want get even foreign visitors in great numbers. The fact that most foreigners would not have the money to pay for a visit to Alphatia has no value for them. Since the founding of the ITU it is a constant puzzle for the rest of the GC whether they simply have a dream or a malicious plan. Some prominent members of the Grand Council (AY 2000, AY 2010): Tylion, former emperor of Alphatia: For informations about Tylion IV please look: "A Life IV a Crown - The Unauthorized Biography about Emperor Tylion IV", Sundsvall University Press, AY 2004. Prince Dalamar of Haaken, President of the Grand Council: Motto: "Let's talk about it!" Dalamar is a cousin of Prince Haldemar, but some years older. He has lived most of his life as a professor for politics at the University of Sundsvall. That he was elected to be the president has not hindered him in his scientific researches in any way. The position of the president is a formal one, but he could see living politic at work. The member of the Grand Council sometimes feel like an interesting specimen under the microscop, and for Dalamar they are. On the other hand there was never a scandal and he has lead the GC very silent and professional. Marshall Dillon, Avenger of Vanya, Speaker of the Committee of Alphatian Defense: Motto: "Life is life, and war is war!" As a born citizen of Stonewall, Marshall Dillon can look back on a long career in the Imperial Army. During the spike attack he was a colonel and brought as many troops back to home as possible. Shortly thereafter he achieved the rank of an avenger and his military genius brought him a storm through the ranks of the generals. Reaching level 36 he has served as Grand Field Marshall for over 20 years. Empress Eriadna promoted him as a candidate for the Grand Council. During the examination he was asked what he would do when a member would challenge him to a duel. His answer is legend now: "I will need 10 seconds to kill a wizard, and 20 seconds for a patriarch. I really doubt that he or she would be able to kill me in this time." Annoyed about this statement some MGCs challenged him. Two mages and one cleric were killed immediately, one mage were lucky enough to survive the first attack and plead for mercy, one cleric recalled himself to his keep. Marshall Dillon resurrected them afterwards, and some are now good friends of him. After that the marshall were elected by a great majority. Shortly thereafter he became speaker of the CAD as a member of the Red Maces, as he was simply the best man for the job. When the war with Glantri, Thyatis and Heldann broke out, one member asked in the GC if the Empire could trust him, an avenger of Vanya. Marshall Dillon answered: "I'm first an'foremost an'Phatian, an' I'd rather search a new boss to serve than harm Alphatia in any way! Vanya is the mistress of Warfare and Conquest, an'we'll see who'll win!" As an avenger he was arrested by emperor Zandor in the last days of the war as the mad emperor did not like the idea about fighters in the Grand Council. Now he serves as CAD speaker again. Master Horgan, Cleric of Valerias, Speaker of the Committee for Science and Education: Motto: "The Master holds you dear!" A born Amburian, Horgan is interested in astronomy and theaters. Instead of shaving his head as most Amburian do, Horgan has long hair, which seems to need a wash every five minutes, and he weighs some pounds more than he should. Despite that he is very favored by the women. Obviously his mistress told him a few other tricks. When he was younger he was a famous singer who were on tour constantly through all kingdoms in the whole empire. He even visited Darokin and Thyatis. His voice is still extraordinary but he does not like tours anymore. When he was chosen to be a member in the GC he joined the Red Maces and became engaged in questions of culture and education. He "survived" the destruction of Alphatia and has still the same position as before the war. His speeches before the Grand Council usually ends with the words "The Master holds you dear!" Tiernan, Cleric of Ordana, Speaker of the Committee of Imperial Finances Motto: "The peace of nature may come upon you!" Being from Foresthome, Tiernan decided to choose the path as druid, but he could not made the final decision when he was at level 9. Now, as a cleric level 36 he is still thinking about it, but the problem is that he would have to challenge the High Druid of the Isles. That he is the head of the CIF is sheer politic. As one of the greatest battlefields of the GC, the Blue Wheels and the Red Maces decided to elect a Brother of Greenwood. Elbe-Es, Wizard, Speaker of the Committee of Internal Affairs Motto: "We will give your future a home!" Elbe-Es inherited the small Wallstreet Bank in Bluenose, Arongansa from his father and together with his sister Swebbyshull he made a very good business in financing houses for freemen and made much money. During his career he took over the First Arongansa National Bank, bought parts of other Alphatian banks and became one of the wealthiest men in Alphatia. Being rich was not enough, though. Elbe-Es became a member of the Great Council and, of course, he joined the Blue Wheels, as nobody is more conservative than a banker. Finally he became the Speaker of the CIA, perhaps the most important position in the Empire. When the war broke out, he was one of the few who spoke against it, but the Blue Wheels had another opinion. Elbe-Es trusts more in money than in magic, despite of being a level 36 wizard, but he did his very best to fight this war which was lead to preserve the magic. After the attack on Glantri City he did not return to Alphatia, but went to Darokin City and is now trying to recover from his heavy losses. As some of his money were placed in Norwold, Esterhold and Bellissaria it is very possible that he will become a very important person in Darokin in the next years. He uses his powers to disguise himself so that nobody knows his true identity. Swebbyshull, Wizard, Speaker of the Committees of Internal Affairs/Expansion and Colonization Motto: "On these stones you can build!" Like her brother Elbe-Es Swebbyshull made some billions as a businesswomen. She has studied architecture and with the money of her brother's banks she built houses for the commoners and for immobile speculations. Swebbyshull Constructions is now the greatest company in the Empire. When Elbe-Es went into the politic, she became interested too, and later on she decided to became MGC too. In AY 997 she became speaker of the CEC for the Blue Wheels, but she had more plans than her party. Her dream was to build houses all over Mystara. After the war she replaced her brother as speaker of the CIA. Fredegar, Wizard, Speaker of the Committees of Expansion and Colonization Motto: "Say 'Cheese'!" Fredegar is a master cheeser from Frisland, and he was quite content with it. He 's started as the apprentice of the famous master cheeser Klamordigan. When becoming a journeyman, he and his master decided to take this literally. Fredegar spent years travelling through the Empire. Besides other activities he also worked as a travelling salesman. Finally he founded his own company in Frisland. After the war he was asked to help, and he did refusingly. But a master cheeser does not shy away before hard work or responsibility and authority. He is a member of the Party of Blue Wheels, but he could not care less about it. Right now he is developing a new dream about bringing wonderful cheeses to all people of the Hollow World and to find wonderful new cheeses likewise. Angus McCarthy, Wizard, Speaker of the Committee of Foreign Affairs Motto: "...and finally I'm the opinion that Glantri has to be destroyed!" Angus is from Klantyre in Glantri, where he has met Prince Brannart McGregor once in his life under... unfortunate circumstances. After that he left Klantyre and emigrated to Alphatia, where he fought engaged for his new home, and for a war against Glantri. When he reached level 36 his deeds were well known and some MGCs decided to start a promotion. Quickly he entered the CFA as a member of the Blue Wheels as this committee is bad equipped, small and only responsible for some few matters. So it's no wonder that he even reached the position as speaker. One sign of Angus is his final sentence when holding a speech as he always demands to destroy Glantri. After the war he is a bitter man, seing his former home country be victorious because of some natural castatrophes. (As a Glantrinian he does not put much faith in immortals and does not know what really has happened.) Alram, Cleric of Alphatia, Speaker of the Committee for National Health Motto: "Life is nothing without Health!" In his youth he fought as an officer in the army of Bettellyn, but finally he could not endure the pain and death caused by battles any longer. He decided to work for the humans and for their health. When reaching the ranks of the GC he joined the Brothers of Greenwood and finally he was appointed as speaker of the CNH. During the last days of the war he disappeared. Lianna, Cleric of Noumena, Speaker of the Committee for National Health Motto: "Every disease is a puzzle! I love puzzles!" She served in the first aid units of Randel and left the army later to make a career at the university at Sundsvall with medical research. After the destruction of Sundsvall and the university she was decan of the medical faculty and where building up the the departement, when she was asked to join the ranks of the Grand Council. Seeing the necessity of rebuilding the government she entered the GC and became speaker of the CNH for the BoG. Solturnun, Wizard, Member of the Committee of Imperial Finances Motto: "A ship may sink, but the fleet will exist forever." Admiral-Knight Solturnun from the Order of the Lake is a member of the Party of Azure Waves. He joined the Order of the Lake when he was young and lived most of his life on the wooden deck of a galley. Although he never was interested in politic he entered the Grand Council when he got the possibility as the High Master had convinced him to work for the order's goals in Sundsvall. Consequently he bought a own little river galley which is manned by young members of the order, which he uses both as ferry and simply for shipping the river after long sessions in the Council. The river parties for the members of Grand Council are famous. With both the once mighty air armada as the ocean gone, his dream of connecting all natural waterways is probably coming true. Galandan, Cleric of Asterius, Head of the Naval Intelligence Service Motto: "You can even hide an entire fleet in a real thick fog." Admiral Galandan is a cleric in the upper mid-levels and a aspirant to become a MGC in some decades. A born Eadrinian, he joined the navy which ships he has admired as a boy. After a good, although not excellent career, Marshall Dillon made him the head of one of the secret services the CAD controls. As a cleric of Asterius he was a good choice and he is leading the NIS on a very effective way. The Admiral is far better known as the high cleric of Asterius in the imperial capital. His naval career has officially ended. "B"/ "The Spymaster", Thief(?), Head of the Alphatian Security Agency Motto: "The truth lies in the eye of the beholder - sometimes even in all eleven." One of the most unknown employees of the Alphatian government is the head of the ASA. One story says that he is a thief from Ambur who has sharpened his skills on the stages of Amburese theaters, another tells that he must be a beholder. Whatever might be true, "B" is the feared and effective leader of the likewise feared and effective ASA, known to be the sharpest dagger in the arsenal of the CIA. Actually the ASA does not do very spectacular actions, only enough to maintain its terrrible fame. The Council of the Kingdoms Lesser known as the Grand Council is the so-called Council of the Kingdoms. Despite being an autocratic ruled Empire, Alphatia is a federal state and the kings and queens are whole-heartedly federalists. This of course means that they want to have as much authority about their kingdoms as possible without giving to much tasks to the central government, the empress and the Grand Council. In the borders of their realms and their given authority the rulers want to rule as autocratic as possible, and they do. The Grand Council as the main body of the central Imperial government is a centralistic institution, of course. Inevitably the kings and queens have convened from time to time to discuss the policy of the GC, new Imperial laws and what that would mean for the kingdoms. It started as an informal ruler's club, and even when it was named "Council of the Kingdoms" 400 years back by the King of Randel, it has not changed. The CK has no administrative capacity of its own, nor does it own any buildings; it is so informal that a session occurs whenever two rulers meet. No Alphatian law even noticed the CK, and it has no right to decide anything. On the other hand the members are kings and queens of Alphatia and so they can decide something on their own, but the CK has no right to enforce a decision when one rulers does not want to do it. Of course, sometimes there were wars between the kingdoms based on a dissense between the kings and queens in the past, an event frowned upon by the GC. This remained unchanged until AY 2012 when Prince Haldemar of Haaken proposed to form a new government for the remaining Alphatian kingdoms. The rulers had not seen each other very often since Alphatia has sunk, and all tried to rule their realm alone. Emperor Zandor had even permitted the existence of the CK for all territories he demanded. In 2012 the Council of the Kingdoms finally ceased to exist and was reformed as the Council of the New Alphatian Empire (CNAE). Two years later it became the Council of the NACE. Nowadays it is the main body of government as the Grand Council was it once (and is it still in the Hollow World). In the Hollow World the CK still exists, of course. The first members of the CNAE were the kings and queens of Aquas and Bellissaria, but now those positions are hold by representatives chosen by the rulers as they have the task to rule their kingdoms. First President of the CNAE, later CNACE, became Siaron Lagrius, formerly Queen of Lagrius, as Prima inter Pares. Decision are made with simple majority, in case of a tie the commander-in-chief, currently Commander Broderick, will make the decision. ==================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #651 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, September 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 652 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia [MYSTARA] - Thothia help Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Karameikos (was: - Alphatia the Uberstate) Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] -Death to Karameikos Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! [MYSTARA] - Re: Karameikos (was: - Alphatia theUberstate) Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:16:52 -0400 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Jamuga, as someone who doesn't like to hear his Germany criticized, you should definitely refrain from the following sort of comments. I can think of nothing more rude, then for a foreigner to make general comments like this about someone's beloved home country. Besides the fact that your comments are simply not true. > But to say that Alphatia is good for all its citizen has the same > quality as saying that the USA is good for all its citizen. > > USA is good for the rich and white, but not so good for the > Indians, the Blacks, the Mexikans and some more. Especially > the latter constantly stream into the land even if they as illegal > aliens are 3rd class citizen. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:16:23 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Greetings! I wanted to get some feedback. I've been playing around with the Immortals attempting to see how they would be as gods in AD&D. I've added new ones, lost a few, and renamed some. I've been trying to get a good mix of good and evil. You'll also notice that there are no Immortals devoted to demi-humans. With dwarves, their clerical magic comes directly from the elements. Elves draw both their magic and cleric spells from forest spirits that once sheltered them. *** **Greater Powers** Iliric (CN) Magic Ixion (CG) Fire, Sun, Truth Noumena (LN) Fate, Mysteries Odin (CG) Wisdom Thanatos (LE) Destruction **Intermediate Powers** Asterius (CG) Moon, Trade Diancecht (LG) Medicine, Healing Forseti (LG) (also known as Forsetta) Justice Frey (NG) Rain, Fertility Freyja (CN) Love, Human Fertility Hel (NE) Death, Disease Loki (CE) Lies, Mischief, Strife Ordana (N) Nature Raiden (NE) Lightning, Fletcher Talitha (NE) Self-gratification, Theft Thor (CG) Honor, Storms, Thunder, Weather Valarias (CG) Emotion, Romance, Passion Vanya (CN) Pride, War **Lesser Powers** Anshar (CE) (also known as a neutral power, Nyx) Darkness, Night Kagyar (NG) (dwarves look kindly toward but don't serve) Arts, Creation, Forging, Metalworks Protius (CN) Sea Thoth (N) Knowledge Untamo (N) Dreams Yav (NG) Prophesy **Demipowers** Al-Kalim (N) Courage, Scholarship, Tolerance Halav (LN) (likely an aspect of Thor) Strategy, Weaponcrafting Petra (LG) Guardians, Protection Zirchev (NG) Bravery, Forests, Hunting - -- This has been a Galwylin(r) Production galwylin@airnet.net http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Galwylin wrote: > good mix of good and evil. You'll also notice that there are no > Immortals devoted to demi-humans. With dwarves, their clerical magic > comes directly from the elements. Elves draw both their magic and > cleric spells from forest spirits that once sheltered them. Not to be toooooo critical, but I find this a bit wrong. Remember, since the conversion to AD&D, Mystara lost something. It lost its individuality, and was placed in a universe with other worlds that previously would not have been directly compatible with Mystara's multiversal view. To translate the Immortals into Gods lessens the whole concept of the Immortal. It aggrandizes them. Makes them seem infallible. Allows them to procreate. And not having any Immortals for Demi-Humans completely destroys their entire existence. Mystaran Gnomes were created by Garal Glitterlode! Mystaran Elves were created by Ordana, not some AD&D "god". To say otherwise, is to completely ignore Mystaran canon. And the worst "sin" of all, Deifying Immortals beyond their state strips Mystara of it's multiversal view. Maybe TSR wants this, and if/when Mystara is re-released, Ixion will be having tea with Mystra. But it won't be the same, and they will lose yet another customer. Call me old-school, but AD&D-izing Mystara still seems wrong, and offensive to the very heart of what Mystara is - The oD&D Known World Ethan - D&D purist. This ranting screed is NOT meant to be offensive to the author. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:01:03 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate St. Jennifer of Mystara said: >> >> So, the "Karameikos Effect"? Hmm...is that an official term? Personally, >> I prefer the "St. Stefan Effect" ;-) St. James of the Holy Screed said: >You know, great minds think alike. I was tempted to make snide remarks >about "St. Stefan" (well, since his admirers are hagiographers, the term >would be appropriate), but I was already treading on people's sacred cows >enough as it was, so I curbed my behavior (yes, me, a model of self >restraint. . . . .NOT!) > St. Geoff, High Bishop of the Outer Beings, Herald of Darkness, says: I too have made my stance on Karameikos known (c.f. my "I don't like Karameikos" tract, for which I spent many gruelling months in the infamous Karameikan re-education camps - ). But they did not break me! They shall not, not while the true light of wisdom of old Milenia shines brigtly in Davania, and not while Thyatis arises from the embers to claim its rightful place as Shield of the East, Defender of the Known World, and Grace of the Eternal Light! To quote Cato the Elder - "Karameikos must be destroyed." *all in jest everyone, even though I really do dislike Karameikos* Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:05:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Jamuga: Agreed. (Gosh, when does this charm spell wear off??????...:-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:05:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Football (American, that is). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:09:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia <> Wow! And here I was thinking that you were the picture of orthodoxy! (...lol...My plan has worked!...James has come over completely to the Dark Side!...8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:17:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thothia help Thank you so much for the help finding a Thothia module--M5 is now at the top of my "most wanted list!" Feeling a little less lost on the IoD, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:22:58 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Karameikos (was: - Alphatia the Uberstate) >(Though some Mystarans seem to live for quite some time). Not quite as long as you might think. Mystaran years are about 1/12 shorter than Earth's, so a human character who lives to be 72, for example, is really only 66 in "Earth-years". Mystarans live an awfully long time by medieval standards, but part of that's a false impression derived from the planet's shorter years. This also helps explain why Mystarans who are in their early 20s tend to be a bit naive, at least judging by many of the NPC descriptions in the products: they're actually 2 years younger than the listed ages (in Mystara-years) imply. Dylan and Galatia are listed as 21 in DotE, yet they both act more like teenagers because they're physically only 19, in IRL terms. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:24:02 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia > > <> > > Wow! And here I was thinking that you were the picture of orthodoxy! > (...lol...My plan has worked!...James has come over completely to the > Dark Side!...8-)~ > Well, I can be the Guardian of Orthodoxy *and* seek to overthrow the "canon", in that I think a base reverence for many aspects of canon is a form of vile heresy, which must be stamped out. Is that clear? No? As I thought. No one claims my views are comprehensible. In fact, I think the agents of FROG may have gotten to me. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:58:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -Death to Karameikos LOL The "Triad of Destruction": St. James, St. Geoff, and Ste. Jennifer. 8-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:03:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thothia <> I'm sure that Nicholas is pleased :-) Actually, you make about as much sense as do--remember, you're talking to the girl who quotes canon to find justification for overthrowing canon! Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:07:56 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! > >> >> IMO, sometimes the >similarities between modern Amer & Alph. are over-emphasised. Something that should be considered, when comparing Alphatia to IRL cultures -- or Melnibone, for that matter -- is that the original Alphatia wasn't a "culture" ... it was a whole PLANET, with a variety of different nations and ethnicities. Saying someone is "common Alphatian" isn't any more specific than saying they're "Oltec" on Mystara -- Oltec, as in "Nithian or Ethengar or Atruaghin or Jennite or Azcan or Sindhi or... et al" -- and the different kingdoms of Alphatia-the-continent were probably established by people who'd also had their own culturally-distinct countries, on their world of origin. The Followers of Air were a worldwide academic faction, not a "culture" or "empire", and would have included people from every background, much as every university in the IRL world has devotees of particular writers, political theories, scientific paradigms, and so forth. Certainly, Alphatians have many features which they all share, whatever their kingdom -- language, robes, obsession with hard-ball, artistic styles, zzonga. But these are the very things which have become "universal" in our own 20th Century world, where most participants in the international community learn English as the IRL "Common tongue" of trade; wear the same business suits and tuxedos to look formal; obsess over soccer and other world-class sports; go to the same movies and listen to the same music; and suffer the same problem of narcotics-smuggling and abuse. Such things probably become worldwide almost automatically, when technology or magic makes communications and travel easy on a global scale. But there's got to be more diversity than that, beneath Alphatia's veneer of "globalization"; otherwise, it'd succumb to the old "It was raining on Mongo..." fallacy of treating whole planets as homogenous units. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:19:10 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! > > > >> > >> IMO, sometimes the > >similarities between modern Amer & Alph. are over-emphasised. > > Something that should be considered, when comparing Alphatia to IRL > cultures -- or Melnibone, for that matter -- is that the original Alphatia > wasn't a "culture" ... it was a whole PLANET, > Well, the original Melniboneans came frome elsewhere too, where it is strongly implied in latest information (c.f Chaosium's Melnebone supliment) that they ruled a whole planet as well. . .and at it's height, the Bright Empire held sway over the entirety of the planet they are on (also a proto-earth) and numerous other planes and planets as well. . . . . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:26:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! The below are good points, and I'm sure (and hope) that the Alph Gaz. people are taking some/all of that into account. Of course, it is also hard to tell to what degree a level of cultural assimilation would have occured after 2+ millenia living as one empire, and what level of distinction/"diversity" would survive that could be attributed to pre-existing nationalities from the Alph. homeworld. Of course, some cultural structures seem to endure forever, but on earth we haven't gone through the 2+ millenia process yet; everything in that direction (if there is anything) is still in its infancy. > > Certainly, Alphatians have many features which they all share, whatever > their kingdom -- language, robes, obsession with hard-ball, artistic > styles, zzonga. But these are the very things which have become > "universal" in our own 20th Century world, where most participants in the > international community learn English as the IRL "Common tongue" of trade; > wear the same business suits and tuxedos to look formal; obsess over soccer > and other world-class sports; go to the same movies and listen to the same > music; and suffer the same problem of narcotics-smuggling and abuse. Such > things probably become worldwide almost automatically, when technology or > magic makes communications and travel easy on a global scale. But there's > got to be more diversity than that, beneath Alphatia's veneer of > "globalization"; otherwise, it'd succumb to the old "It was raining on > Mongo..." fallacy of treating whole planets as homogenous units. > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:01:17 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Update] List of Dragon Magazines At 09.45 24/09/98 -0400, Glen Sprigg wrote: >There's information on dragon life cycles in #170 as well. Yep. Forgot about it. >And if you're listing articles that are strictly about D&D (not necessarily >Mystaran) rules, #109 has an excellent article on customizing character >classes, while #118 has an article on playing Neanderthals with D&D rules. Thank you very much. I'll include those in my next update. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:44:18 -0500 From: Galwylin Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods At 02:42 PM 9/24/98 -0400, SteelAngel wrote: > >Not to be toooooo critical, but I find this a bit wrong. Remember, since >the conversion to AD&D, Mystara lost something. It lost its individuality, >and was placed in a universe with other worlds that previously would not >have been directly compatible with Mystara's multiversal view. Individuality of Mystara or D&D? The two are not the same. Mystara should be able to maintain its individuality regardless of the rule system it uses. Besides, I feel that Mystara has 'copied' too much of our world. Bringing the Immortals up to godhood is only the beginning of my heresy ;> >To translate the Immortals into Gods lessens the whole concept of the >Immortal. It aggrandizes them. Makes them seem infallible. Allows them to >procreate. And not having any Immortals for Demi-Humans completely >destroys their entire existence. Again, I don't see where your coming from. Immortals do have faults and always have. Alphatia wasn't the first to recieve their 'infallible' wisdom. Removing Immortals from demi-humans only distiguishes demi-humans from humans in my mind. Something that no setting has made attempts at. >Mystaran Gnomes were created by Garal Glitterlode! >Mystaran Elves were created by Ordana, not some AD&D "god". As gnomes and elves were created by the gods in every other setting. Where is the individuality now? >To say otherwise, is to completely ignore Mystaran canon. Exactly. Not just ignore it. Completely rewrite it. In this version, elves, dwarves, gnomes are created by neither Immortal or god. They are an extension of the world itself, created from it. The spirits that sheltered them in the beginning were replaced by Immortals. I will correct that. >And the worst "sin" of all, Deifying Immortals beyond their state strips >Mystara of it's multiversal view. How is the view of Immortals vs demipowers different? Both rise from mortal beings into immortality. Wait till you hear the rest. You might want to assign worse sin to something else :) >This ranting screed is NOT meant to be offensive to the author. None taken. But as I said, I was looking for feedback. Not permission :) This has been a Galwylin(r) Production galwylin@airnet.net http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:35:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Galwylin, Hey, you can take this with a grain of salt if you like, as it's coming from an Uber-heretic :-)--after all, I've screwed with canon so much on the subject of Immortals and gods that you probably wouldn't recognize much of it! But I say go for it--I enjoyed the post, personally, and we both (Ariel and I--why have two subscriptions when you can share?:-) agreed with most of your sentiments. I disagree about not having demihuman deities (actually, I've toyed with the idea of having at least the elves come from another world, a la CBoE)...but I think you should keep on keepin' on. If everyone else thinks it's off topic (having so much to do with AD&D), you can write me personally at the below address. Regards, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:11:12 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! St. James of Thyatis said: > > The below are good points, and I'm sure (and hope) that the Alph Gaz. >people are taking some/all of that into account. Well, for my own part I can tell you that these things have been on my mind. The people of Frisland, for example, are ethnically similar to the pure Alphatians (diluted somewhat by mixing with indigenous Yanifey tribes, as well as Antalians, who had some kingdoms to the west - wait for another lecture on this, Jenn ). This contrasts quite sharply with many other kingdoms. Also, don't forget to account for the effects of living for 2,000-odd years in a different environment - not every kingdom in Alphatia has the same history. Let's use Frisland as an example again, simply because I wrote the Gazetteer for it: Philosophy - Frislanders are a very guarded people - they prefer to stay within their walled cities and towns, shunning the open wilderness that makes up so much of their kingdom (thus their population is almost 100% urban, but there's a reason for this). Why is this? Well, why don't you try to live next door to Blackheart for about 1000 years and see if you're afraid to go outside at night? Also, numerous attempts to use magic to make Frisland "bloom" have failed utterly, sometimes producing horrible results (mutant vegetables stalk the poorly-tended farms at dark, and worse). Having spent the better part of 1000 years fighting the land, and losing, many Frislanders have basically "given up" - they retreat to their towns, buy their imported food (or the bountiful catches from the sea, when shipments get that far inland to reach the major towns), and some of them tend fields and herds of animals during the day, but return to town at night (with their charges, of course). But wait, one asks. Why don't the other kingdoms help Frisland? Why should they? Each Alphatian kingdom is pretty much an independent state in its own right, so long as it pays its share of imperial taxes to the kitty in Sundsvall - and even Frisland manages to this, barely. As long as ravening hordes of monsters/starving peasants/anarchists/whatever don't stream beyond Frisland's borders and mess up some mage's flower garden, people are happy the way things are - except the Frislanders, but they've become used to their lot, they just soldier on. Add to this the historical element of the Alphatian Suppression Wars I introduced to the list not too long ago, and it becomes very clear that Frisland was forged in war, and its people, even from day one, have always had to fight for their existence without much help. First it was against Argonathian armies, then guerrillas from the fallen kingdom of Argonath, and then the monsters from Blackheart, not to mention the occasional raid from the Antalian kingdom of Ystmarhavn - before it was conquered by Yanifey refugees, and renamed Qeodhar... So here's an example of how Alphatians from one kingdom can be quite different from the perceived norm. I don't think any PC who meets a Frislander would at first glance realize that he or she is really an Alphatian. So, how does that sound? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:52:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! How cool! We're talking in almos real-time! (You're in Ottawa, right? I'm in south Texas) I couldn't agree with you more whole-heartedly.I haven't gone into a whole lot of detail IMC, but I have always thought that the people of the north would have vastly different characters from the people of the south, for example. No one from Frisland would dream of acting like those snobs from Arogansa (is that the right name--I don't want to go for the books?) I think that it's important for people to realize that Alphatia is a CONTINENT full of people from different parts of a whole PLANET, then brought here 2,000+ years ago...why shouldn't cultural separation/development occur individually? Think of it this way--(to use a Rome analogy--forgive me for sounding thyatian:-)--Rome owned at one point everything from Spain to Britain. Would we even DARE to call these the same peoples? Nor would persons from Rome, in their own day. maybe I'm rambling, but I think you get my point...:-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:29:04 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Karameikos (was: - Alphatia theUberstate) In a message dated 1998-09-24 15:52:00 Eastern Daylight Time, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: > Not quite as long as you might think. Mystaran years are about 1/12 > shorter than Earth's, so a human character who lives to be 72, for example, > is really only 66 in "Earth-years". Mystarans live an awfully long time by > medieval standards, but part of that's a false impression derived from the > planet's shorter years. Are we indeed sure about that? Another possibility is that Mystara has longer days than the real world. But I must admit that I like your idea. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:36:34 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. magic In a message dated 98-09-23 08:25:36 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: << > well the Russians suffered in Afghanistan :) >> > >afghanistan showed the flaws within the Soviet war doctrine. Funny thing was, that was where the IFV experiment was tried and failed (the old Soviet BMPs). The concept of infantry fighting under armour was considered to be a radical new concept at the time, but after the Afghans proved that infantry attempting to fight from within their vehicle just proved to be a sitting duck it got dropped... >> well the BMPs were firetraps. the small arms gun ports were different than those used in the BMPs and BTRs. one thing the afghan theatre offerred was a rugged land in which to fight. the red army was essentially sitting ducks to the ample cover the terrain offerred. also, the afghans were fanatical, offering their own lives to take out a russian vehicle. another problem shared by both the BMPs and BTRs was the internal space for the infantry. the interior had a low ceiling and firing from the gunports was difficult as the infantry were all stooped over. out of the two types i prefer the BTR-80. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #652 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, September 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 653 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:36:42 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology vs. Enchantment In a message dated 98-09-23 08:28:10 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes: >i agree to a point. magic should be a surprise to the techies. i do think that >the offensive capabilities and the coincidental counters to some of the magic >would still have the techies at a distinct advantage over the mystarans. >as for ghosts...well ghosts are usually bound to a certain area. earth has its >own share of ghost legends. not to forget the earthen religions which are >religions and therefore wards against the undead. and then there are the >techies's own clerics aka chaplains. > Ahh, but that makes it worse. The techies know what a vampire is, thats why they are afraid about it! (Hmm, this could turn rapidly to From Dusk till Dawn (Yeah, Peter Cushing does that all the time...)>> however, it also allows themselves some insight. something to base their studies upon. i've never seen From Dusk Till Dawn. given the number of vamps and the massive show of firearms in the movie ads and previews, i suspect the firearms were effective against the vamps.btw- i was watching Bram Stroker's Dracula the other night (best time to watch it imo) and i noticed that steel was quite effective against the vamps. i am also wary of a deluge of patriotic vampires coming into play. what motivation would cause an undead to fight for mystara? food? the dead and wounded on the battlefield would be a veritable buffet table to any hungry vamps and undead. if anything i see the undead as being scavengers to the carnage. as for participation i doubt it. being ageless, vamps are like elves. they have seen nations come and go. vamps have time on their side. alphatia is the primary nation to knowingly use vamps. iirc there are two alphatian divisions listed in pwa1&2 with vamps listed as officers. > no healing powers but they are religious >figures with offensive abilities agains enemies both mortal and spiritual. >btw- an interesting notion would be the chaplains to begin gaining clerical >spells upon landing on mystara. > Hmm. Maybe, but i think that Christianity at least would be against such things (witchcraft).>> but christianity supports miracles and divine acts. whether they be acts of humanity (healing) or protection. faith and religion are the portrayed heavily within the legends surrounding vampires and other undead. the bulk of the DnD stuff are conversions of christian anti undead methods. the showing of the Cross. holy water. using the undead's christian name. > Well, even the Battle of Agincourt may not have happened quite like that in > D+D, if the French were level 9 and the English level 1.>> > >i think you missed my point with the agincourt reference. superior range mixed >with greater potential of firepower of the longbowman spelled disaster for the >french knights/the pride of french nobility. at the time a great shock to >europe. > No, i realised that. My point was that the longbowman were highly skilled, they werent just "peasants". It was a case of the right troops for the right terrain. >> terrainwise the english just had the idea to alter their approach to adapt to the terrain. the big thing for them was regarding the terrain was dismounting the english knights and having them fight on foot. the english line then fought a defensive battle. the peasant longbowmen were somewhat a myth. they were peasants. the english peasants were instructed to practice frequenbtly with the longbow. the day in day out practice forged a large number of skilled longbowmen. the longbowman was a major factor of the english victory at agincourt. its range and rate of fire was greater than the french crossbows. that greater range and rate of fire are the attributes very similar to a assault rifle toting techy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:37:17 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI? In a message dated 98-09-23 14:20:31 EDT, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: << >Then again it could be the immortal `LUDD` who has been given the job of >ensuring that there is not another great rain of fire. Whenever a group >reaches a sufficiently high tech ability his followers, the Luddites, >are activbated and sent on a S/D mission. Or maybe there's just not enough coal, oil, natural gas or uranium left on Mystara, to power large-scale tech, because Blackmoor and Evergrun already used them up. >> that's actually a good premise. one of the things i try to offer in my blackmoor stuff is the need to support this huge industrial structure. the need for new resources for power is how i justified the need for the developement of the super fusion reactors that caused the GRoF. i tend to present tech blackmoor as being full of flash. where product life expectancy is short as each new version is introduced the population rushes out to get it. this works for me as the blackmoor expansion removes much of the potential resources like oil, natural gas, etc. i left coal alone as imo blackmoor using coal would be beneath them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:58:13 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability In a message dated 1998-09-24 07:28:18 Eastern Daylight Time, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes: > Actually if you intend to become an immortal (gold box) it`s a great > idea since you otherwise have to spend PP to get yiour stats up to the > required minimums for advancement. Er -- what required minimums? While most Immortals do spend PPs to improve their ability scores, I have been unable to find anything in WotI that requires them to do so. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:29:18 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods As an AD&D-Mystaran, I am quite sympathetic on the idea of Immortals as gods (BTW, it's what I'm doing IMC). However, I have a couple of questions for you. 1)On Nyx: why did you set her as CE/N? I would say she's a LE power, which gives account for her fondness of undead but also of her attitude toward her followers (anshurian manscorpions, for example). 2)On demihuman gods: would you let a demihuman reach Immortality/godhood? Gianpaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 02:29:05 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! In a message dated 98-09-24 17:02:43 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: << The below are good points, and I'm sure (and hope) that the Alph Gaz. people are taking some/all of that into account. Of course, it is also hard to tell to what degree a level of cultural assimilation would have occured after 2+ millenia living as one empire, and what level of distinction/"diversity" would survive that could be attributed to pre-existing nationalities from the Alph. homeworld. Of course, some cultural structures seem to endure forever, but on earth we haven't gone through the 2+ millenia process yet; everything in that direction (if there is anything) is still in its infancy. >> james has a point there. a certain degree of individual uniqueness should be present in each alphatian kingdom. that's something that i am trying to do with the alphatian kingdoms i am doing for the Alphatian Gazs. i have already done the kingdom of Randel which is ultra militeristic. that's why i am glad the Gazs are being done by several different folks. this way you get different perspectives which translate to differing kingdom personas. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #653 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, September 28 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 654 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society [MYSTARA] - ADMIN: Is the list down? Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:Short years (was: - Karameikos) [MYSTARA] - [OFF TOPIC] IT'S A BOY!!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Re: [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards RE: [MYSTARA] - [OFF TOPIC] IT'S A BOY!!! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate [MYSTARA] - Fw: The End of the Empires in Brun [LONG] Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK > > Actually, I agree with you. IMO, putting these places in one boxed set > > didn't end up doing either of them justice. And in fact I support the > > project that several folks on the MML are undertaking, in doing > "Alphatian > > Gazeteers" for each Alphatian Kingdom (without nessisarily supporting the > > results of that project, mainly because I haven't really seen anything, > and > > not because I'm critical of it). > > Take a look at > > http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan > > http://members.aol.com/CpEbenezum > > > This was what I was decrying: to the extent to which they *had* detailed > > > > > (Btw, this also qualifys as a "ranting screed" *G). > > The big point for Alphatia: All goes! > > But to say that Alphatia is good for all its citizen has the same > quality as saying that the USA is good for all its citizen. > > USA is good for the rich and white, but not so good for the > Indians, the Blacks, the Mexikans and some more. Especially > the latter constantly stream into the land even if they as illegal > aliens are 3rd class citizen. > > Likewise Alphatia is good for spellcasters, and much worse for > all other, but it is a big and rich land with many possibilities. > Perhaps the medical care for Alphatian slaves is better than for > Thyatian commoners, and they might get for food. > > What I have in mind for the might Alphatian Imperial Navy is > that nobles are promoted much more quickly, of course. > This can even mean that the captain of ship is a terrible > seaman who has to rely on his (probably common) first > officer. Similar constellations are known about the British > Royal Navy in the 18th and 19th century. BTW, in this > time it was usual that a noble "gentleman" could do with > a simple peasant girl what he wanted. Nevertheless the > most English commoners wouldn't have wished to live in > France. > > > Jamuga Khan > > > > "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > Bob Dole said he'd go back to Kansas if he lost the election. What was he doing in D.C. as a Chilean lobbyist, arguing against American fishermen? For more info see http://www.jimhightower.com July 13th,1998 commentary *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:25:15 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate >Has anyone ever calculated out how many experience points it would take, to >GET a thousand 36th level mages...? Or how many slain monsters, researched >spells, enchanted magic items or flying castles they'd have had to >slay/research/enchant/construct, in order to earn that many...? > >The mind boggles. Well, these mages have generally been alive for a few hudred years, so that's not too unusual (we finally have the reason why Alphatian mages keep summoning monsters, even when they know they're just going to escape: to get more experience!). Of course, that raises another problem: a 36-th level mage who has been aroung for a couple of centuries can create quite a few "broad swords +10, +25 vs. anything I don't like". "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:37:15 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate >4 - My favorite and the one I'm planning to use) Have young Valen Karameikos >leave home and become the new lord of the Barony of Halag. I'm even thinking >of giving the lad an evil girlfriend (can you say "Bargle's apprentice?") and >letting the chips fall where they may.... I'm thinking of a Lovecraft story (can't quite recall the title right now), but it had this friend getting married to Asenath White. In a nutshell, Asenath wasn't Asenath: she was possesed by the spirit of her dead father, who then possesed the friend. Bargle could do the same thing, or assist von Hendriks the same way, and then, as the song says, "The boys are back in town." "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:51:41 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society >However that was only 6 IIrc so if on your planar jaunts you find a nice >little unocupied plane and change that and train your apprentices there. >When comes time to battle you just tell them its a special graduation >exercise with nice presents for them such as raise dead fully if they >die and this nice magic item you`ve been working on for the best of >them, and some other goodies for the rest it`s a lot easier to become a >`Paragon`. Mind you with this much forethought maybe there`s a chance to >be an `Epic Hero`. The ultimate has to be though the `Polymath` who due >to the way things work out in their other lives actually completes all >the four paths to immortality. Yes, but isn't there also a level limitation on the opposing mages too? In any event, the Immortals are looking for someone who is the "Paragon" of his/her profession, not someone who can defeat 12-th level apprentices. I don't know how any Polymath would go about doing that; after you get to a rather low level, you remember everything, and there's no way you would stick aroung to get back to 30-th level in all your other classes, rather than just become Immortal and get it over with. I like the idea though: I once toyed with having a high-level renegade polymath that opposes the party, but I couldn't think of a logical reason any polymath would not choose Immortality when s/he got the chance, rather than become a really powerful mortal. I' ve always thought that Dynast was the most difficult path; ignoring everything else, you've got to wait at least twenty years, twice as long as the next longest (Polymath: ten; the only time limit given for Epic Hero is like a year, and I don't recall any for Paragon). "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:24:22 -0500 From: Spencer Graham Subject: [MYSTARA] - ADMIN: Is the list down? This message is to test if the Mystara MML is functioning. Have not recieved post in a few days. Spencer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:59:42 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re:Short years (was: - Karameikos) >> Mystaran years are about 1/12 >> shorter than Earth's, so a human character who lives to be 72, for example, >> is really only 66 in "Earth-years". Mystarans live an awfully long time by >> medieval standards, but part of that's a false impression derived from the >> planet's shorter years. > >Are we indeed sure about that? Another possibility is that Mystara has longer >days than the real world. Well, the fact that a Mystaran day is 24 hours (of 60 minutes each) has been established in the PWAs and other products. Granted, a Mystaran minute might be slightly longer than an Earth-minute, but movement rates were originally based on the idea of a 10-minute turn ... 10 minutes, Earth time. So either Mystaran minutes -- and, by extension, Mystaran days -- are the same length as Earth's, or Mystarans are a bit slower-moving than other oD&D/AD&D characters. (Of course, the 120' movement rate for humans is just a "guesstimate" on the part of the game designers; people in real life move faster or slower than this, depending on circumstances.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:08:28 -0700 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [OFF TOPIC] IT'S A BOY!!! Well, sorry for the delay, but I have been very, very busy learning to be a new mom! Yes, my little one was born on Monday, September 21st at 8:31am and weighed in at 6lbs, 3oz (approx. 2610g). I've just finally had a chance to do more than simply download my email without reading it and wanted to share the news with those I said I would. Don't know when I'll have time again to deal with email etc., and I've just switched to the MML digest for now and you might not hear much from me over the next few weeks, but I'll still be around for a while -- just a bit more of a lurker than usual ;-) Talk to you all later! Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:38:04 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote: > centuries can create quite a few "broad swords +10, +25 vs. anything I > don't like". Umm. +5 +10 is max. And I'm sure any rational DM would shut down the "Anything i don't like" angle :) - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:43:16 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK > Jamuga, as someone who doesn't like to hear his Germany criticized, you > should definitely refrain from the following sort of comments. I can > think of nothing more rude, then for a foreigner to make general > comments like this about someone's beloved home country. > > Besides the fact that your comments are simply not true. > First a big sorry for all who felt insulted by me. Only a little sorry for all who felt insulted but couldn't resist to fire back. And finally a liitle sorry for all UK citizens who felt insulted as I've written about the past of your country. Jeff, if you ever should critize Germany I would answer all your wrong critics. Should you mention anything I'm having a different opinion, I would say it too. And finally, when mentioning a really bad point, I would have to admit it. Perhaps I would not say anything then. So even if it off-topic, can you explain it to me why my comments were not true? According to my informations about the USA I assumed them to be true. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 02:28:58 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - 1000 Wizards In a message dated 98-09-24 14:11:16 EDT, URND@MARISTC.MARIST.EDU writes: << Someone, James Ruhland I think, mentioned that he knew of no "canon" source for describing the Council as anything other than 1000 36th level Mages. I recall, however, in the discussion of Alphatian history from the Alphatia Player's Handbook in DotE that at one time there were not enough Wizards of sufficiently level to complete such a Council. Someone who cared could use this as a precedent for a Council of arbitrary composition. >> iirc that period was shortly after the alphatians arrived on mystara and a large chunk of its super mages lay dead from the war. another thought is that the alphatians found mystaran magic was different and their own ability was lessened. so a 36th level mage on the alphatian homeworld may have found himself but a mere novice on mystara. that is until they adapted their magics and filled up their spell inventories. imagine a 36th level mage limited to a few low level spells. as far as i know the Grand Council is exclusively 36th level magic users. the only thing i have seen to the contrary is JamugaKhan's version of the Council, where he includes paladins, clerics, avengers, rangers, etc. it's good work but i disagreed with it when first sent it to me and i disagree with it now. the only way i could see its exception would be in a postwrath alphatia where the Grand Council is thinned out by war and the sinking. and where a good portion are in HollowWorld. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:12:35 -0700 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - [OFF TOPIC] IT'S A BOY!!! On Saturday, September 26, 1998 10:08 AM, Jenni A. M. Merrifield [SMTP:strawberry@jamm.com] wrote: > Well, sorry for the delay, but I have been very, very busy learning > to be a new mom! > > Yes, my little one was born on Monday, September 21st at 8:31am and > weighed in at 6lbs, 3oz (approx. 2610g). Congratulations! We're expected in about 2 weeks... my wife is sure is hoping it'll be small (and soon!) Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:09:19 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against US/UK > > So even if it off-topic, can you explain it to me why my comments were not > true? > According to my informations about the USA I assumed them to be true. > Um, I for one would prefer that if this line of dialogue is to continue that it be taken to private mail. We'd be opening a huge can of worms, and, while (for instance) I could go into what are misimpressions and exagerations about both Germany & the USA, I think we'd much rather NOT. OTOH, if you all do want to engage in a dialogue on comparative social problems &tc, then feel free to include me in. Just note that I won't restrain myself any more than others (I.E. Jamuga) have so far. But this is definately not a topic for the MML, and IMO it would just spiral into mutual flames if it goes on here. Probably just best to leave certain arrogant folk to their comforting illusions anyhow. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:47:04 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia against the Multiverse! >An excellent point, though IMO a problem (the "gentleman officer" trap) >that both Empires are probably prone to experience. True, but it seems to me that Thyatian "Officers and Gentlemen" may have an edge over their Alphatian counterparts: at the very least, the Thyatians will be fighters for the most part, whereas Alphatian predjudice will have mages running around commanding the troops. Dogrel notwithstanding, mages generally don't have the war skills that fighters do, and in AD&D rules, high-level fighters get a lot of bonuses to commanding troops in War Machine/BATTLESYSTEM type conflicts. Furthermore, if you're running after WotI, recall that all of the inefficient Thyatian troops were killed off. This could have some serious repercussions in post-WotI KW: every Thyatian unit left is elite, blooded, and hungry for revenge, revenge against the corrupt establishment that "didn't want us to win." I'm imagining a coup, a la the French Algerians at the end of the Fourth Republic, except with no de Gaulle to save the day. Thyatis becomes a harsh miltiocracy )more so than it is now), corrpution is removed, magic/clericdom is supported, all in the name of military efficiency, and the entire nation is put on a true war footing. Time to reclaim the "wayward" territories of Ylarum and Karameikos (on another note, Thyatis could send an elite team of dwarven and gnomish miners to Thotia to undermine and destroy those nasty Pyramids; let's see how well the mummies do now). "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:33:44 PDT From: "Nicholas Hudson" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate BTW do you think that paladins and avengers could be on the Council as well (they are technically spellcasters)? Hmmm. That could create some serious class problems in Alphatia. Under oD&D, you have to be at least 15-th? level to become a paladin or avenger. By that time, you've been labouring under the system of the sheep bleating "Magic good, mundane bad!" for at least a decade-and-a-half of professional life, and a decade or so prior. You've always been able to beat up those runty mages, and don't even get started on the risks you get to take on an average adventure. For your entire life, all you've ever heard is, "You're no good for anything," "Malthus gets to play on the swing because he's gifted," and "Such a pity you're handicapped." Now, after all this time, you're a member of the elite. There is no mortal power whatsoever, including 36-th level mages, comparable to an equivalent level avenger/paladin with a(n) (un)holy avenger. You know what they say about payback. "In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen Nicholas Hudson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:59:06 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Fw: The End of the Empires in Brun [LONG] The following is a conference given at the Oniric Academy of Wendar City [BTW, to the Wendar GAZ team, an area I am trying to develop among some magical info on Wendar]. It is in character, pronounced by my favorite PC, Annecians de Skie, Alphatian Mage (and theoretically King) in exile: =========================================================================== > > > > > THE END OF THE EMPIRES IN BRUN: A SURVEY ON THE POLITICAL SCENE FOLLOWING > THE VANISHING OF ALPHATIA. > > 1 Ambyrmont, 1015 AC 2015 AY > > > > This land which bears us, both people made from it and people arrived > from far away in the Void, has lived the stages of its political soul which > shaped its history as rivers, mountains and oceans shape its body, > following the evolution and rule of empires. Before Alphatia and Thyatis, I > have been able to delve into history via a quite unbeliable way and, after > centuries of darkness, confirmed the existence of a great empire, Nithia, > whose only remains are now the Kingdom of Thotia. For more details, you may > refer to my essay "A Commentary on "Claransa´s Travels" and its insights on > Ancient History". For now, it is enough to make clear that many other ruins > buried below sand, sea or swamp, many other people who now strive to live, > isolated or oppressed, like Oltecs, Milenians or -although it might seem > insulting to the defenders of the enlightened Kingdom of Karameikos- > Traladarans, are the remains of cultures which swept the land with armies > and civilization, covering vast expanses of our continent, or even > substantial percentages of Mystara. Some empires had already fell into > utter oblivion when we Alphatians made Landfall more than two thousand > years ago. As time came, both power and chance brought our country to the > place of one of such empires; years later, that was Thyatis´ privilege, too > and, for one millennium, the lands of the Old World, the Sea of Dawn and > Norworld, were our own private arena. It would be a distorted nonsense to > negate that both countries strived to amass power, in the form of land, > resources and workforce, at the expenses of their rival or lesser lands > suffering, but it would be also inaccurate to reduce History to that chain > of -hoping that no Darokinians get offended- industrial exploits: On the > contrary, both Alphatia and Thyatis developed and spread a spirit, an > ideology which could and was mirrored both by individuals and states all > over the Old World. Their colonization and the fame or infamy of their > clashes did not only bring about language, titles, literature and legends; > they also forged a concep, a living portrait of two conceptions of Man, > both as an individual and as a member of society. Concepts, ideas, shining > and pure, but also subject to endless degrees of paradox and contradiction, > much as the soul which each of us treasure inside. These spirits of the > world were as contradictory as the armies of each empire, but, at the same > time, they complemented each other. So, I will continue with an outline on > both of these spirits of history and I will begin, for chronology´s sake, > with my departed Alphatia: > > > Alphatia, in the opinion of one who could have ruled, but who decided to > depart to better analyze the world and himself, signified the power built > by colectivity. Its paradox was that that power of colectivity rested upon > individuals who, in the end, became the paradigm of selfishness and > discoordination, so bringing about Chaos and injustice: In Alphatia mages > ruled. As shining Sundsvall represented, the whole of the Empire was, in a > sense, built by magic: forsaken Islands, like the Alatians, could be made > fertile by magic; food could be transported (1)... How else could a reduced > number of colonizers from other world have gained mastery over a new and > extense land? Unfortunately, our race had changed. Not everyone was able to > wield the Art, so society become what, from the moral point of view of the > individual may be seen as tyrannical, but, from a social analysis is just > specialized: those with power would rule; those without it would use the > talent of their bodies to labour. Ideally, it was a social contract. In > reality, it opened the door to the despotic domination of aristocracy as > exemplified in the two Alphatian codes of law. Perhaps the truth of > everyday life was more complex, but at least this was the image that > Alphatia cast over the world: the State created structure (rulign through > magic) and the individual rulers subverted it. > > Thyatis falls on the opposite plate of the scales: individuals make (or > made) the Empire: personal projects, ambitions and desires -those of > powerful or charismatic heroes in particular- brought about a sense of > identity and universal purpouse. Take, for instance, that Thyatis > originated as a conglomerate of three very different tribes (Thyatians, > Kerendans and Hattians), not to mention the dependance of the Empire´s own > origin -and its ulterior waxing or waning- from thr greatness of a handful > of leaders. This feeling made the way for the particular proceedings of > Thyatian expansion: their giving of imperial nationality and rights to > conquered lands. Every people, every religion was not simply absorbed by > the EMpire, they built it at the same time. Of course, that was not a > benign procedure, it was not even a conscious one. We cannot blind our eyes > to incompetent dinasties of nobles only kept aloof by birth rights, > oppresed colonies, mistreated commoners or conspiration against the common > interest. The point is just that Thyatian history portrays this: heroicity, > personal ambition and competence from the individuals get summed up to > build the State. This is the Thyatian paradox, inverse to the Alphatian > one: treachery, conspiration and ambition, selfish qualities, made possible > (even with irregularities) the existence and expansion of Thyatis; it was > like a process of natural selection: growth through competence and > conflict. > > These are the two systems we have known, the two spheres which inspired > political thought in our lands. Countries could align themselves with > either Empire or remain away and neutral, but what they could not help was > to receive this influence of dialectics: How to understand the notion of > State, how to set in order the individuals´ wishes and choice with the > interest and greatness of a nation? Through the mainland, we mostly speak > one or another form of Thyatian; in the archipielagoes, Aplhatian is the > usual tongue. But no the Empires are no more; Alphatia is departed and > Thyatis has fallen from its former glory: from a country of conquerors, it > has changed into a country of survivors; it has no longer the autority to > shine as a model of virtue and vice and, if we made a survey over the > continent, no land is ready to take the place of either. > Empires there are, of course: the Master of Hule is making himself ready > to sweep the earth and the evils brewing in Denagoth cannot and will not > sit idly within their borders, for we have seen them pour out before, but > there is a striking difference: these sinister powers have their view of > authority and domination sprung out from religion and the inspiration of an > Immortal or church which, by their very nature, are exclusive to them: they > cannot produce a spirit of Empire, only subjugation by force. Alphatia and > Thyatis had their political concepts drawn without a dependance from > religion; they did not close their eyes to the Immortals, but were not > condicioned to them; their views could be borrowed by peoples with > different worship and traditions. The imperialistic lands of today don´t > fit the role of models, dialectical heralds of History and ideas, they can > only be seen as menaces. > > And for the other countries, those who have lived for centuries under the > shadow of the empires, they are just a band of survivors: some roguish, > some clean and efficient as bureoucrats, some open to innovation, some > closed in isolation. Take Karameikos, the first land which first received > me after leaving Alphatia: its "enlightened ruler", King Stefan, has picked > and chosen from Thyatian ideals only to make them fit into his reduced > boundaries; to put it in simple terms, he has debased noble ideas in order > to become a big fish in a small pond. All his politics, expeditions and > foreign > meddling are just focused to bring stability to a handful of towns and > farms. The School of Magecraft... an effort which, although promising, > denotes desires of independence and autarchy, in this case from the magical > authority of Glantri in the continent. Take Ylaruam, a nation closed in a > dream, to the point of closing itself to the world and its teachings. Of > all the countries I might survey, I only find some glimmers of dynamical > politics in Heldann and Glantri, though both of them are presently far away > from the chances of shining as ideals: the former don´t make their ideals > grow, the just force others to eat them raw, the later, interestingly > enough, have managed to blend the worst aspects of the Thyatian and > Alphatian paradigms: they organize a confederation based on magic and > excellence only to surrender it to selfishness, bickering and conspiration > with that madness of Parliament voting. And for the newborn NACE... well, > it is the essence of our new paradigm: no empires, no model, only a > patchwork of nations and identities which must seek their own fates > themselves, only touching, aiding and opposing each other in the measure > which it will aid their temporal and material needs and interests. Our > political map has been doomed by the Wrath of the Immortals to live on > without big ideals: now we have the petty desires and models of barons and > kings, various and confusing; the two shining beacons which shone from afar > and inspired the destinies of nations and individuals have sunk forever; > only Time shall compose their equals. > > > ============================================================================ > > > > (1) OOC: for those of you who have asked, DotE mentions in a couple of > passages > the less importance that factors like distance or climate have in Alphatia, > as magic can promtly provide production or transport of goods when needed. > The Empire cared (out of structure interest, not charitiy), although > individual rulers were selfish or reckless. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:50:23 EDT From: RISPEN@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Old Immortals, New Gods <> I must agree here, to try and make Mystara compatible with AD&D by doing away with or lessening the Immortals in anyway totally destroys the feel and individuality of the setting. <> Mystara, as its been pointed out on this list before, has never been a setting that is about good vs. evil. To even group the immortals in this way will change the fundamental way Mystara runs. Currently the immortals are of five spheres of influence each opposing the other while trying to gain the most power for their own sphere. Again this is not an attack on the other author, just another D&D purist and Known World player of 17yrs opinion on things *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:13:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatia the Uberstate On the subj of Avengers/Paladins in the Council, I have to say i disagree with that concept. Alphatia has always seemed to me that it favors MU's over any other kind of Magic user. I seem to remember that Clerics are gentry, not nobles. So Palandins, and avengers would be Gentry, unable to serve on the council. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #654 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.