mystara-digest Sunday, October 18 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 681 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Atzanteotl [MYSTARA] - Map for Civ2 Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Mare and Maria.. not quite the same Re: [MYSTARA] - Mare and Maria.. not quite the same ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:07:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Michele Vacchiano wrote: > Federation? Which federation? The Galactic Federation. It is located either elsewhere in Mystaras Galaxy, or in another Dimension, depending on which source you like best. I'm in favour of the first one. It is dominated by a racve of green skinned humans. Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:20:50 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Atzanteotl >If I am not too wrong, it is Ka the Preserver the Immortal which favours a >Feathered Serpent look (along with the Dinosaur one). He is also called >"The Amber Serpent" and, according to WotI, his form is the closest to the >couatl thing. Atzanteotl is just out for mockery. He dons a serpent form, >but he keeps an elvish head along. > Ah yes, you are right. Ka (aka Kalaktatla, aka the Amber Serpent) does favor a reptilian look. However, his "Amber Serpent" form is actually a golden dragon. As Kalaktatla, he takes the form of an amber-colored serpent with feathers. Confusing guy, eh? :) But Atzanteotl also has the serpent form (with an elvish head). And he is the one called "the Feathered Serpent". I believe Atruaghin fits the role of "Quetzalcoatl" more, although I'm not too familiar with Aztec mythology. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:36:20 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Map for Civ2 Hello, I have created a map of Mystara for Civilization 2 game. It can be found on my website, in Mystara section. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:17:08 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` > Now Rad enters the picture as in 845 AC he >supposedly achieves immortality. this actually makes him an Immortal 51 >years BEFORE the `canon` of his death leading to module X2 which >actually takes place 979 AC. which is 83 years after the disapearance of >Chateau d`Ambreville. IMHO, Etienne had only started to mess around with the Radiance, in 845; although its energies began the process of ascension, he didn't become a full-fledged Immortal right away. Being "killed" by his wife and brother was what forced his consiousness to re-build itself in his true, Immortal form, and it's only at that point that Etienne/Rad realizes what'd happened to him. Before then, he might well have believed the artifact was transforming him into some kind of super-mage, but NOT an Immortal (which - -- as a native of monotheistic Laterre, whose chief experience with Mystara had been in religion-deprived Glantri -- he might not even have believed was possible for mortals, before it happened to him!). >1995: Mark of Amber (can`t remember who wrote this)in the secret history >Etienne causes consternation as the first mortal to become Immortal >without help. What about Rafiel? Rafiel allows the other Immortals to believe he is an Entropic, the better to mislead Atzanteotl (Gaz13). Since the Entropics don't trust each other to come clean about who's sponsored whom, nobody was in a position to blow the whistle on Rafiel's charade; hence, there was no "consternation" about Rafiel's arrival. Benekander and Rafiel both pre-date Rad, as "radiation Immortals", but Rad was the first Immortal to show up at Pandius and come out of the closet as a product of the "Path of the Atom". ;-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:36:32 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor >>The various >>Thyatians are obviously not of "pure" Antalian extraction (different skin >>tone, blond hair rare at best, etc), so they must have intermingled with >>some other folks as well. Nithians a possibility, but could be others in >>the mixture. Depends on what kinds of historical ties folks want to set up. >> >You're right on this score. Personally I think the Antalian slaves >intermixed with the Milenians after they wiped their Nithian overlords off >the map, as Marco theorized. Given the fast friendship that forms between the "Ylari-cized" Kerendans and the Alasiyani, from the net-history of the Ispans, Kerendans probably had blood ties with them from way back (remember, they were also slaves of the Nithians!). I generally think of Thyatians as olive-skinned, Kerendans as reddish brown, and Hattians as Nordic-looking. The Thyatians are Milenian/Antalian crosses; Hattians are still Antalian in their appearance. Kerendans are part Heldanner, part Alasiyan, and part Nithian. >All this aside, I've always been curious about the Hinterlanders. IMO, >judging from all the material I've read, I'd have to say that the >Hinterlanders are in fact the long-lost cousins of the Thyatians, >Kerendans, and Hattians. They were brought to Davania as well, but they >could have freed themselves earlier, and migrated elsewhere for a time, >returning to the original spot when the Thyatians et al left. Given their culture, my guess would be that the Hinterlanders aren't related to the Thyatian tribes, but rather to the Celtic peoples of the Isle of Dawn. Perhaps the inhabitants of Caerdwicca, Dunadale and so forth were made slaves of the Nithians, along with the Alasiyani, and the Hinterlanders are their long-lost cousins who rebelled on Davania along with the Thyatian tribes. Or alternately, they're a fourth tribe of Antalians who rebelled along with the Thyatians, Kerendans and Hattians, but who dispersed to the Isle of Dawn rather than the mainland, with a few clans remaining behind. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:40:17 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle >The Galactic Federation. It is located either elsewhere in Mystaras >Galaxy, or in another Dimension, depending on which source you like best. >I'm in favour of the first one. It is dominated by a race of green >skinned humans. > >Håvard Just out of curiosity, how "human" were the Federation's people? Could the Beagle survivors have taken up Mystaran character classes, married Mystaran humans, had kids with them, etc? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 00:27:37 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mare and Maria.. not quite the same >To tell the truth we are both correct: what >I was referring to is the Italian word for sea, which is Mare (pl. Mari). >What you were talking about is obviously the Latin word Mare (pl. Maria). >So, non-italian speakers obviously (uhmm, obviously? Not that obvious to >me: why don't you use the term "lunar sea" instead of maria?) refer to >lunar seas as maria, while italian astronomers call them "mari lunari" I, personally, don't call them "lunar seas" in my posts so as to distinguish the crystalbarrens' maria (i.e. the open crystal wastelands) from actual Hollow Moon SEAS (i.e. the ones that have water in them). As for English-speaking astronomers, they presumably call a lunar sea a "Mare", because it's a fancy name that lets them show off their Latin ... a language to which scientists of any nationality seen addicted. :-) ><compare with an IRL voyage to the New World; and also, to make it clear >that the Moon's a lot farther than a hop, skip, and a jump away. The fact >that Patera's so close creates a false impression that voidship expeditions >are a cakewalk, IHMO.>> > >But in this way how could you handle interstellar travels? They just take >too much time to be worth trying. Also, with your method a trip to the moon >takes more time than a trip around the world.. is it really so? I got the >idea (from SJR and CoM) that voidspeed is increased in comparison to aerial >speed inside the atmosphere and this is due to the absence of air attrite >and gravity. My main concern with your "longest" timeframe is that if it >really takes so much to reach the moon, then probably Mystarans will never >reach other solar systems, or even Jupiter for that matter! And does the >thing works the same with other aliens? The way I'd pictured things, the Hollow Moon would be only the FIRST destination of Mystaran astronauts ... an appropriate place to discover in the PWA era, when space travel is still in its infancy. Later on, as journeys to and from the moons are made, faster and more efficient methods of space travel (i.e. SJ equivalent) could be invented, up to and including interstellar-speed vessels; but starting off with such long-range, sophisticated voidships, right from the dawn of Mystaran space exploration, seems like too much, too soon. You've got to learn to walk, before you can run, and space travel's still a pretty new and strange concept to Mystarans: the PA adventures make it clear it's a novelty to Haldemaar; the HKs only discovered their Warbird-powering artifact a few decades ago; and even Myoshima's still at the "flying mounts" stage! But come back in fifty years, and (barring something like a second WotI) voidships might well be commonplace, as well as a LOT faster and safer. Between the "New World" Red Steel setting and the revelation of the Hollow World, Mystara in general seems to be entering a new Age of Discovery, in which technology and magic are beginning to make new venues of adventure accessible to PCs. Letting Mystarans make the jump to Matera is a logical first step, in extending that expansion into space. But it makes more sense to let voidship technology develop one stage at a time -- the first ships can only reach the moons; the next ones visit the near planets; then, the outer planets and ort cloud; then DoE's Spillworld.... -- with each generation of voidships improving upon the previous one's speed by an order of magnitude, than to throw the whole galaxy open to exploration in a single shot. (Besides, how many new planets can one DM design, at a time? :-P) Eventually, Mystarans WILL come up with faster voidships, assuming they keep up with the current trend of exploration ... with the first interplanetary ships, suitable for visiting the near planets, cropping up (what a coincidence! ;-D) at about the time the PCs in a given DM's campaign have finished exploring the Hollow Moon. Aliens, of course, would have advanced far beyond "continuous-acceleration" voidships long before they arrive, assuming you want to have some land on Mystara. To them, C-AVs would look primitive, just as old-time sailing ships look to you and I. But -- like Blackmoor-designed rockets or Immortal artifacts -- alien vessels could certainly be used as a plot device, to carry PCs beyond the range of Mystaran voidship technology. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:54:15 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mare and Maria.. not quite the same All this talk about aliens visiting Mystara (been done already, depending on what you think the Emerondians are), and interstellar travel reminds me of an idea I had a while back. IIRC, I envisioned that, during the final years of Blackmoor, a small group of dissidents realized that the constant plundering of Mystara's resources, and the single-minded quest on the Blackmoorians' part for power, could only end in ruin one day. So a large group of them (10000 or so), piled into a space freighter reconfigured as an ark, and left for points unknown. About 15 years later, GRoF happened, but by then the explorers found a new world - in fact, it corresponds roughly with the Saturnian moon of Titan (but Mystara-sized). Blanketed in a thick CO2-rich atmosphere, Nurandia (as they called it), was much like Mystara, though water was much scarcer (covering only 40% of its surface). Due to a mechanical failure, the ship crashed, forcing the colonists to rebuild on a large island off the coast of an equatorial continent. Disaster struck the fledgeling colony as well, as plagues, native monsters, and worse proceeded to whittle away the survivors, but eventually, after 400 years, they had adapted, and had even domesticated local animals and founded plants that were edible. Now, after 4000 years of rebuilding and exploring, the Nurandians dominate several continents of their world, and now thoughts are turning to their fabled homeworld, now half-shrouded in myth and legend. Children are told that it was a land of magic, or great power, and those who led could walk like Immortals. Above it all, the mighty Blackmoorian empire stood as a shield against evil. Or so the legends say... Now, using their own voidships (a product of rediscovered technomancy - magic exists on Nurandia, but in much diluted form), the Nurandians are set to venture towards the inner solar system, in search of Blackmoor and other wonders. Well, that's about all I ever developed. If anyone wants to play with this idea, feel free to do so - I might flesh this out a bit more later on. All this talk about space travel just jogged my memory. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #681 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, October 19 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 682 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Hattians Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Hattians [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:39:44 -0400 From: "DJ Sahlas" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail >> I agree the Holy Grail seems tied to the RW. The only way I can think >>of to incorporate it is to take up the theory that Mystara is our own world >>in the distant past and to have adventurers travel forward in time to the >>cavern (the city of Petra in Jordan) featured in Indiana Jones and the Last >>Crusade. Jennifer Favia wrote: > >I don't think I like that idea. That gives far too much >of a reason to introduce RW stuff into >Mystara--corruption, IMHO. However, couldn't the grail >be from the world of the Averoignians/Kaels/Fens, as >it's an alternate earth? That would give a link to >Mystara (via the settlers) without bringing earth into >play. Actually, that's not a bad idea. La Terre is a very interesting world (is it a separate reality, however, or Mystara in the far future?). Good inspirational reading for La Terre would include Sir Walter Scott's "The Talisman" (and "Ivanhoe"). The Scottish knight in that story is a good character study for the average highlander of Klantyre. He is also extremely pious (I remember a scene at a monastery in Palestine) and so he could introduce the Holy Grail into Mystara by crossing the portal along with the MacGregors somewhere in the forests of medieval France on his trip back from the Holy Land with the Grail. This way the Grail could lose some of it's association with the Christ and retain the characteristics mentioned in the Master's DM guide. Imagine a sacred grotto somewhere in Klantyre where the undead fear to tread, for secreted therein lies the Holy Grail! Jim Sahlas (By the way, IIRC the sacred regalia of Avalon consisted of Excalibur, The Holy Grail, a spear, and a plate) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:06:27 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Hattians On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine wrote: > >I agree. Also, for what concerns Heldannic Knights, they are already > too > >"modern" for me, with magic which mimics technology (warbirds). IMO,=20 > >should they become MNazis, the effect of "modern nation disguised as=20 > >middle-age" would disrupt the atmosfear of the game. > >Let them remain MTeutonic Knights. > > Cannot more agree ... but i have the same feeling with NACE, alphatian > hardball game ... > Me too. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:12:56 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, how "human" were the Federation's people? Could the > Beagle survivors have taken up Mystaran character classes, married Mystaran > humans, had kids with them, etc? > DA3 "City of the Gods" says that Federation' people (aliens) look exactly like (mystaran) humans, except that under the light of (mystaran) sun their skin assumes a slight green tone. In that adventure all alien NPC are fighters. As to character classes, I would say that there are no problems for would-be fighters and thieves. Cleric powers would also be available, should an alien join a mystaran religion. For mages, things become more difficult. It depends manly on your ideas on what one needs to became a wizard. 1)Magic abilities depend on genetic factors: then probably aliens don't have the right genes, so they cannot be mages. 2)Magic abilities depend on external factors (i.e. magical fields etc.): then aliens can be wizards. As aliens are quite similar to humans, mixed marriages are possible, and if you let humans have children with elves, orcs and maybe dwarves, then they should do the same with aliens. However, there is no guarantee of fertile hybrids, high reproduction rates and so on. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:23:23 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, DJ Sahlas wrote: > > Actually, that's not a bad idea. La Terre is a very interesting world > (is it a separate reality, however, or Mystara in the far future?). Good > inspirational reading for La Terre would include Sir Walter Scott's "The > Talisman" (and "Ivanhoe"). The Scottish knight in that story is a good > character study for the average highlander of Klantyre. He is also > extremely pious (I remember a scene at a monastery in Palestine) and so he > could introduce the Holy Grail into Mystara by crossing the portal along > with the MacGregors somewhere in the forests of medieval France on his trip > back from the Holy Land with the Grail. This way the Grail could lose some > of it's association with the Christ and retain the characteristics mentioned > in the Master's DM guide. Imagine a sacred grotto somewhere in Klantyre > where the undead fear to tread, for secreted therein lies the Holy Grail! > Or it could be the opposite, with a mystaran artifact brought to La Terre by one of the few surviving glantrian clerics, who crosses a portal in Nouvelle Averoigne while pursued by glantrian Censors. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 04:40:02 PDT From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Hattians Hi all... I've to apologise : i'm sorry for the number of mail transferred ... but it wasn't intended : my computer bugged (and i didn't thought he had ever tried to send so much messages ...) ! Excusez moi ... merci Bye ... Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:49:50 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space > All this talk about aliens visiting Mystara (been done already, depending > on what you think the Emerondians are), and interstellar travel reminds me > of an idea I had a while back. > > IIRC, I envisioned that, ... > > > > Well, that's about all I ever developed. If anyone wants to play with > this idea, feel free to do so - I might flesh this out a bit more later > on. All this talk about space travel just jogged my memory. > > Geoff Well, and I have the vision about some crewmen of the F.S.S. Beagle who learned enough about the magic of Mystara to return into space, only to discover that Mystaran space was very unlikely that they were used to. They settled the asteroid girdle in Mystaraspace and their culture thrived. Some millenniums later a small group split apart and landed on Mystara, the same planet their ancestors had left after their crash. There they finally became...the Emerondians!!! Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:55 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle > 1)Magic abilities depend on genetic factors: then probably aliens don't > have the right genes, so they cannot be mages. > 2)Magic abilities depend on external factors (i.e. magical fields etc.): > then aliens can be wizards. Well, you have forgotten the possibility that some of the aliens indeed had the genetical trait to cast spells, but they were never trained as their civilizations did not know anything about magic (perhaps forgotten due to more effective technology). When assuming this they could become magic-users too. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:43:20 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, paul dooley wrote: > was this just a mistake on Bruce`s part or was this the heresy of > `NON-CANONICAL` thinking actually becoming `canon`? Back in the day, the "prime plane" contained only Mystara. Everything else was not important, since it had never been really detailed. That's the problem with early D&D supplements, because they considered the Known world to be the entire game universe - everything else - the elemental planes, the outer planes, the immortals - seemed just tacked on. The NoS story is the biggest problem with Mystaran "canon" Because it has never been well defined, it is subject to many interpretations. Here is My interpretation: The NoS affects only Mystara. Mystara's world shield creates the magic on the surfaces. The NoS is like a magic focuser, making magic more powerful. It was made into a powerful artifact by an Old one, as an experiment in creating energy Immortals. It was altered by the other immortals because they feared the status quo would be screwed up. The magical drain on the NoS causes the focusing effect to be diminished over time, so at one point in time, only the world shield will be left as the magical source on the planet. However, the magical properties of the world shield have been permanently weakened by the NoS's existence, so when the NoS goes critical, almost all the magic on mystara, barring Immortal magics, would cease to exist. I know what this says is almost heresy in and of itself. BUT, to me, it makes sense, and kinda works. Comments? Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:58:39 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Holy Grail >This way the Grail could lose some >of it's association with the Christ and retain the characteristics mentioned >in the Master's DM guide. Imagine a sacred grotto somewhere in Klantyre >where the undead fear to tread, for secreted therein lies the Holy Grail! > I like that, a lot. > (By the way, IIRC the sacred regalia of Avalon consisted of Excalibur, >The Holy Grail, a spear, and a plate) I think you're right--thanks. :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #682 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, October 21 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 683 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Atzanteotl Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space [MYSTARA] - Product Searches Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, last part ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:53:14 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle >> 1)Magic abilities depend on genetic factors: then probably aliens don't >> have the right genes, so they cannot be mages. >> 2)Magic abilities depend on external factors (i.e. magical fields etc.): >> then aliens can be wizards. > >Well, you have forgotten the possibility that some of the aliens >indeed had the genetical trait to cast spells, but they were never >trained as their civilizations did not know anything about magic >(perhaps forgotten due to more effective technology). > >When assuming this they could become magic-users too. One interesting possibility to consider, if we're trying to reconcile the Federation as existing in the same universe as Mystara -- I know that many people assume they're from another dimension, but this is just a thought -- would be if they came from a neighboring galaxy that USED to be magical, but which succumbed to the ravages of a magic-draining artifact, similar to the pre-Wrath NoS, eons ago. This would account for the apparant absence of demihumans and the like from the Federation (it's mostly humans AFAWK, pesumably with other non-magical races we haven't seen yet), and its having to depend on pure technology rather than "technomancy"; yet it would still allow Feds who travel to Mystara's magic-rich environs to rediscover the spellcasting abilities that were drained from their ancestors, long before recorded GF history. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:45:25 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Jamuga Khan wrote: > > 1)Magic abilities depend on genetic factors: then probably aliens don't > > have the right genes, so they cannot be mages. > > 2)Magic abilities depend on external factors (i.e. magical fields etc.): > > then aliens can be wizards. > > Well, you have forgotten the possibility that some of the aliens > indeed had the genetical trait to cast spells, but they were never > trained as their civilizations did not know anything about magic > (perhaps forgotten due to more effective technology). > > When assuming this they could become magic-users too. > True. However, I would consider low-level magic more effective then low-level technology (think to spells as mending, magic missile or even cantrip), so if aliens developed a technology more effective then their magic, this magic was probably much weaker and less common then that present on Mystara (even before Alphatians arrival). Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:53:03 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > > One interesting possibility to consider, if we're trying to reconcile the > Federation as existing in the same universe as Mystara -- I know that many > people assume they're from another dimension, but this is just a thought -- > would be if they came from a neighboring galaxy that USED to be magical, > but which succumbed to the ravages of a magic-draining artifact, similar to > the pre-Wrath NoS, eons ago. > > This would account for the apparant absence of demihumans and the like from > the Federation (it's mostly humans AFAWK, pesumably with other non-magical > races we haven't seen yet), and its having to depend on pure technology > rather than "technomancy"; yet it would still allow Feds who travel to > Mystara's magic-rich environs to rediscover the spellcasting abilities that > were drained from their ancestors, long before recorded GF history. > This explains the absence of elves from the Federation. Dwarves (at least Clan Skarrad) would thrive in a magic deprived world. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:34:10 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` >IMHO, Etienne had only started to mess around with the Radiance, in 845; >although its energies began the process of ascension, he didn't become a >full-fledged Immortal right away. Being "killed" by his wife and brother >was what forced his consiousness to re-build itself in his true, Immortal >form, and it's only at that point that Etienne/Rad realizes what'd happened >to him. Before then, he might well have believed the artifact was >transforming him into some kind of super-mage, but NOT an Immortal (which >-- as a native of monotheistic Laterre, whose chief experience with Mystara >had been in religion-deprived Glantri -- he might not even have believed >was possible for mortals, before it happened to him!). > Actually there is also `canon` to support this option, hence the title of this thread > >Rafiel allows the other Immortals to believe he is an Entropic, the better >to mislead Atzanteotl (Gaz13). Since the Entropics don't trust each other >to come clean about who's sponsored whom, nobody was in a position to blow >the whistle on Rafiel's charade; hence, there was no "consternation" about >Rafiel's arrival. Benekander and Rafiel both pre-date Rad, as "radiation >Immortals", but Rad was the first Immortal to show up at Pandius and come >out of the closet as a product of the "Path of the Atom". ;-) > Acceptable reasoning which I missed but it does have one serious flaw in that if ANYONE had cast `Probe` at him when he was without a `Probe Shield` the game would have been up. Hamlet 1,v,166 Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:36:40 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Atzanteotl >Atzanteotl is called "the Feathered Serpent" in WotI, and one of his manifestation forms looks like that. Atruaghin may be "Mystaran Quetzalcoatl", but that doesn't mean he has to share the looks or the monikers. > Whoops! Checked up when I got home and found you were right. Please accept this huble and heartfelt apology for daring to besmirch your good name. Hamlet 1,v,166 Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:52:18 PDT From: "paul dooley" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` >Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:43:20 -0400 (EDT) >From: SteelAngel >To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` >Reply-To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > >On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, paul dooley wrote: > >> was this just a mistake on Bruce`s part or was this the heresy of >> `NON-CANONICAL` thinking actually becoming `canon`? > >Back in the day, the "prime plane" contained only Mystara. Everything else >was not important, since it had never been really detailed. > >That's the problem with early D&D supplements, because they considered the >Known world to be the entire game universe - everything else - the >elemental planes, the outer planes, the immortals - seemed just tacked on. > >The NoS story is the biggest problem with Mystaran "canon" Because it has >never been well defined, it is subject to many interpretations. > >Here is My interpretation: > >The NoS affects only Mystara. > >Mystara's world shield creates the magic on the surfaces. The NoS is like >a magic focuser, making magic more powerful. > >It was made into a powerful artifact by an Old one, as an experiment in >creating energy Immortals. > >It was altered by the other immortals because they feared the status quo >would be screwed up. > >The magical drain on the NoS causes the focusing effect to be diminished >over time, so at one point in time, only the world shield will be left as >the magical source on the planet. However, the magical properties of the >world shield have been permanently weakened by the NoS's existence, so >when the NoS goes critical, almost all the magic on mystara, barring >Immortal magics, would cease to exist. > > >I know what this says is almost heresy in and of itself. BUT, to me, it >makes sense, and kinda works. > > >Comments? > >Ethan > >-- >Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 >www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. > > > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:11:01 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Sharon wrote: >One interesting possibility to consider, if we're trying to reconcile the >Federation as existing in the same universe as Mystara -- I know that many >people assume they're from another dimension, but this is just a thought -- >would be if they came from a neighboring galaxy that USED to be magical, >but which succumbed to the ravages of a magic-draining artifact, similar to >the pre-Wrath NoS, eons ago. > >This would account for the apparant absence of demihumans and the like from >the Federation (it's mostly humans AFAWK, pesumably with other non-magical >races we haven't seen yet), and its having to depend on pure technology >rather than "technomancy"; yet it would still allow Feds who travel to >Mystara's magic-rich environs to rediscover the spellcasting abilities that >were drained from their ancestors, long before recorded GF history. > Hey, cool idea! This works for me, at any rate. Geoff PS - Has anyone looked at the Alternity rules? Are they any good, and could we use them to construct our own GalactiFed? - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space Jamuga, Lord of the Steppes, wrote: >Well, and I have the vision about some crewmen of the F.S.S. Beagle >who learned enough about the magic of Mystara to return into space, >only to discover that Mystaran space was very unlikely that they were >used to. They settled the asteroid girdle in Mystaraspace and their >culture thrived. Some millenniums later a small group split apart and >landed on Mystara, the same planet their ancestors had left after their >crash. There they finally became...the Emerondians!!! > Neat! I haven't considered how to treat the Emerondians myself, IMC. Personally, I always wondered at the similarity of the Galactic aliens and the Emerondians, but I could certainly use this idea. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:18:54 -0700 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Product Searches Hello All, First of all I'd like to apologize to those who are on multiple lists and receiving this message more than once. I have a business that does product searches for people. Generally, if there's any TSR/RPG item that you are looking for- I'll find it for you. Currently, I have several items on hand, and am selling them as well. Please contact me (address is in the sig) if you have any questions or interests. Thanks. Jesse. vanquer@softhome.net ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:29:18 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle In a message dated 1998-10-20 05:25:46 Eastern Daylight Time, piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it writes: > True. However, I would consider low-level magic more effective then > low-level technology (think to spells as mending, magic missile or even > cantrip), so if aliens developed a technology more effective then their > magic, this magic was probably much weaker and less common then that > present on Mystara (even before Alphatians arrival). One thing that should be noted, though, is that (except for elves, Old Alphatians, and other highly magical races) magic is a talent that is accessible only to a few, while anybody can use technology. A mage might prefer to fire off a magic missile spell rather than use a firearm -- but a mundaner has no such option. Also, learning magic has a cost, as it depletes one's combat ability -- human mages have fewer hit points and cannot wear armor or use most weapons, and even elves tend to have fewer hit points than humans. The only risk posed by technology is its unreliability -- and even that factor diminishes with time and further development. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:29:20 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle In a message dated 1998-10-20 05:28:47 Eastern Daylight Time, piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it writes: > This explains the absence of elves from the Federation. > Dwarves (at least Clan Skarrad) would thrive in a magic deprived world. Do we really have any idea what races are present in the Federation? After all, Mystara's only contact with them was via the crew of a single ship. There is no reason to assume that, just because all or most of the crew of this ship was composed of green skinned humanoids, the Federation itself was also dominated by that race. In fact, at one time I was toying with the idea of populating this Federation -- and I in fact had it ruled by an elf-like species. By the way -- has anyone else had a go at detailing this Federation? I could see it as a potentially interesting place to adventure -- and whenever the ship that the player characters are on misjumps, they could find themselves in the Mystara system and discover that their ship is the "Beagle". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:49:51 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Civilizations in Space In a message dated 10/20/98 7:12:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, au998@freenet.carleton.ca writes: << >Well, and I have the vision about some crewmen of the F.S.S. Beagle >who learned enough about the magic of Mystara to return into space, >only to discover that Mystaran space was very unlikely that they were >used to. They settled the asteroid girdle in Mystaraspace and their >culture thrived. Some millenniums later a small group split apart and >landed on Mystara, the same planet their ancestors had left after their >crash. There they finally became...the Emerondians!!! > Neat! I haven't considered how to treat the Emerondians myself, IMC. Personally, I always wondered at the similarity of the Galactic aliens and the Emerondians, but I could certainly use this idea. >> sounds good to me. i once proposed that the missing beagle crewmen merged with an elvish clan and reached for the stars using magic. then returned to mystara and became the emerond. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:22:43 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? As many of you know, I am finally getting around to my development of Hulean society/culture, so I was re-reading some of the canon material involved. I noticed at the end of the timeline for the Great War in the CoM explorer's manual that it mentioned that Hule would strike at Darokin again after 1010, though by sea. Now, I have PWAIII, and nothing is in there about Hulean sea attacks. Obviously, this appears to be yet another dropped thread in canon. BUT, I was wondering if anyone had taken this option. How would naval attacks even be possible against Darokin, considering that (IIRC) Hule is tied up in the Gulf with the Baronies after 1010, and to get to darokin via sea would mean bypassing Ierendi and Shires waters? I know canon here, I was just wondering what anyone has done about it in their own campaigns. Sorry for being so long-winded tonite :-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:41:24 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? > sea. Now, I have PWAIII, and nothing is in there about > Hulean sea attacks. > Well, actually, their is some stuff on this in earlier PWAs (PWA I IIRC, perhaps II); basically it is another one of thouse abortive, missed oportunities: some minor Hule piracy occurs, and it is wrapped up after a couple months. Now, on this though, I guess I can't be too critical: Hule isn't known for having a great nautical tradition (I believe their "navy" can be accurately described as "an archiological collection of rotting hulks"). However, this was a disapointing (to me) aspect of the PWAs in general. "events" were just that: short lived episodes that (for the most part) were both brief and inconsiquential, having little real impact. I guess the authors were largely afraid of stiring up things or having the world evolve (well, not entirely true. In some areas, which in the interest of amity I won't mention by name, big changes took place in unrealistically brief periods. But the rest of Mystara remained in a static state). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:32:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Harri M{ki Subject: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, last part Georg von Drachenfels Georg was 64-years old when he at last take the formal Position as Prince of Aalban and viceroy of Nordling. He was not so great as magician as his brother, but he was definitely better as administrator and politician. He was imposing massive man with enormous mustaches and sidebars. He was already nearly bald. He had earlier always been number two in Aalban. He was not so intelligent as his elder brother Johann and he was firstto admit that. But he had a deep sense of responsibility. He had been at first afraid of the possibility that he may sometimes become a Prince, he had no ambitions regarding to that, he was shy and wanted to stay out of the limelights. But when his brother asked him to help in governing the Aalban, his sense of responsibility was so great that he couldn't refuse. So when he become a Prince in 961 he was probably best prepared von Drachenfels to ever take that position. He had been de facto Prince already over 10 years. His succession was secure, his son Morgaithe was already 40-years old and his grandson Jaggar 16. In fact most Aalbane tought that Georg would step down after couple of years. He was planning to do just that but at first there came some financial problems, which delayed his resignation, because he knew that his son didn't understand anything about economics. And then in 966 he was quite surprisingly chosen as Chamberlain of Glantri. The elven Princes were Grandmaster and Supreme Judge so the choise was amongst the others and Georg was chosen as best candidate because of his sense of responsibility and because of his knowledge of the Glantrian countryside from his youth in the Army. Georg was great success in his position, he bettered the road conditions in all over the Glantri and build some new bridges in strategic places. Georg stayed as Prince till the end. He died peacefully in 978 at the age of 81. Morgaithe von Drachenfels Morgaithe was already 57, when he succeeded his father. He was physically not so big as his father, but anyway imposing figure with his full beard and shining white uniform. He was more militarilly oriented than both his father and uncle together were been. He and his wife Hildegarde had been waiting already over 20 years for the day Morgaithe would become a Prince. They great plans. Morgaithe was chosen as Viceroy of Ylourge. He immediately began to suppress orc tribesfrom surrounding mountains. His plan was first to pacify humanoids and then conquer the Adri Varma Plateau. He was waiting for easy victory, but somehow there seemed to be an endless amounts of orcs and other humanoids in the mountains. And then in 983 came a disaster. Morgaithe fell in battle against the orcs. Hildegarde was devastated, all their plans were blown a way. And most of all she would be replaced as Princess by his sons wife Gertrud, whom she hated so much. Summary Heinrich von Drachenfels b.671 d.719 Otto von Drachenfels b.697 d.740 Joachim von Drachenfels b.720 d.788 Sigmund von Drachenfels b.757 d.813 First Count of Ritterburg Wilhelm von Drachenfels b.788 d.840 Viceroy of Nordling 829-840 Friedrich von Drachenfels b.812 d.886 First Prince of Aalban Viceroy of Nordling 840-854 Chancellor of the Princes 854-886 Ernst von Drachenfels b.844 d.897 Viceroy of Nordling 886-897 Albrecht von Drachenfels b.870 d.940 Viceroy of Nordling 897-902 Chancellor of the Princes 902-940 Johann von Drachenfels b.895 d.961? Viceroy of Ylourgne 940-950 Grandmaster of the School of Magic 950-957 Viceroy of Nordling 957-961 Georg von Drachenfels b.897 d.978 Viceroy of Nordling 961-966 Chamberlain of the Land 966-978 Morgaithe von Drachenfels b.921 d.983 Viceroy of Ylourgne 978-983 Jaggar von Drachenfels b.945 Viceroy of Ylourgne 983-991 Viceroy of Nordling 991- Chamberlain of the land 1004-1011 Well, here it is at last. It took more time than I expected. You can find earlier parts at Shawn's page. So I hope that someone will comment this work. I have plans to continue next to house of Belcadiz, but I will first waite, what you have to say about this. Because I don't see any sense for continuing if noone likes what I have done. t:Harri Mäki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #683 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 684 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, last part Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:14:04 +0200 (METDST) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > One thing that should be noted, though, is that (except for elves, Old > Alphatians, and other highly magical races) magic is a talent that is > accessible only to a few, while anybody can use technology. A mage > might prefer to fire off a magic missile spell rather than use a firearm -- > but a mundaner has no such option. > Yes, but I was thinking that a first level spell as magic missile would be accessible far before firearm, if technology and magic were developed at the same rate. In RW, people tried magic, which was not functioning, for a long time before developing technology, so if RW magic had real effect, we wouldn't have researched firearms at all. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Curtis Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Jennifer Favia wrote: >> I noticed at the end of the timeline for the Great War in the CoM explorer's manual that it mentioned that Hule would strike at Darokin again after 1010, though by sea. Now, I have PWAIII, and nothing is in there about Hulean sea attacks. Obviously, this appears to be yet another dropped thread in canon. BUT, I was wondering if anyone had taken this option. << Well, our campaign hasn't gotten heavily into these geopolitical conflicts yet, but I think I can help. >> How would naval attacks even be possible against Darokin, considering that (IIRC) Hule is tied up in the Gulf with the Baronies after 1010, and to get to darokin via sea would mean bypassing Ierendi and Shires waters? << Let's assume Hule does look to strike Darokin via the sea. I believe Hule does have a port in its sliver of domain on the ocean, right? This factor alone allows Hule to at least attempt an amphibious assault. And the sea route is actually wide open for an assault on Darokin. Its territorial waters and those of Ierendi and the Shires, if we assume the Mystaran idea of territorial waters isn't dramatically different from the real world standard (I think any water within 12 miles of land belongs to the country that owns that land), don't touch at all except for where Darokin and the Shires touch on land. So if a Hulean fleet didn't carelessly waltz into the waters of Ierendi or the Shires causing an act of war, the likelihood that either nation's fleet would attack seriously diminishes (NOTE: I didn't say they wouldn't help Darokin, just that they'd have less reason to). So why wouldn't Hule attack this way? If we look at Coastal Darokin, several detrimental factors become immediately noticeable. First, the Malpheggi Swamp occupies almost all the Darokin coast, and from what I've read, the swamp is too treacherous to navigate into the Darokin heartland. The other two Darokin coastal points, Port Tenobar and The Port Whose Name I Can Never Remember :), are heavily fortified, are very remote from the heartland, and any forces advancing from these two cities would be restricted to such a narrow corridor that the Darokin defense would likely have extreme advantages in terrain. Compare this route of attack to the current land route. Darokin's western border is wide open to approach without any significant geographical feature to block troop movements (the lake doesn't do the job because there are large land corridors to its south and even a few to the north). Sind, fast upon the Darokin border, is under the grip of Hule already, and it appears that Hule could lock up control there for centuries to come, so moving troops to Darokin by land is much less complicated than by sea. And if the Huleans were so inclined towards a flanking assault, the repercussions of straying into Atruaghin territory would likely prove minimal as its people wouldn't likely become bellicose so long as the Master moves his troops through quickly and keeps mischief to a minimum. The Master might even try to get some support from the Tiger Clan if only to gain continuous access to Darokin through Atruaghin lands. Anyway, I think the Master would see invasion by sea as unfeasible in comparison to his current options on land. But that's just me :) Adam _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:43:46 +0200 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle > One interesting possibility to consider, if we're trying to reconcile the > Federation as existing in the same universe as Mystara -- I know that many > people assume they're from another dimension, but this is just a thought - -- > would be if they came from a neighboring galaxy that USED to be magical, > but which succumbed to the ravages of a magic-draining artifact, similar to > the pre-Wrath NoS, eons ago. A magic-draining artifact is not necessary, pure technology should be enough. When a technology can reach the same results as magic, but is much cheaper and much easier to use the time for magic-users is over. > This would account for the apparant absence of demihumans and the like from > the Federation (it's mostly humans AFAWK, pesumably with other non-magical > races we haven't seen yet), and its having to depend on pure technology > rather than "technomancy"; yet it would still allow Feds who travel to > Mystara's magic-rich environs to rediscover the spellcasting abilities that > were drained from their ancestors, long before recorded GF history. Who said that those demihumans did not exist? They might even have dozens of planets. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:13:38 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? >Let's assume Hule does look to strike Darokin via the >sea. I believe Hule does have a port in its sliver >of domain on the ocean, right? This factor alone >allows Hule to at least attempt an amphibious assault. Yes, if the Baronies did not take just the mere fact of Hule entering that sliver of waters as carte blanche to blow them out of said water :-) >The other two Darokin coastal points, Port Tenobar >and The Port Whose Name I Can Never Remember :) Athenos? >...moving troops to Darokin by >land is much less complicated than by sea. Absolutely, and I think that was the thrust of what I was trying to say last night (although I wasn't exactly phrasing it succinctly:). > >And if the Huleans were so inclined towards a >flanking assault, the repercussions of straying into >Atruaghin territory would likely prove minimal as its >people wouldn't likely become bellicose so long as >the Master moves his troops through quickly and keeps >mischief to a minimum. The Master might even try to >get some support from the Tiger Clan if only to gain >continuous access to Darokin through Atruaghin lands. Yes, getting support from Tiger Clan is definitely an option, although I think you might see Bear clan some into action to protect the base of the cliffs and the route leading to their border with Darokin. Also, in an amphibious assault situation, do not discount Turtle Clan. >Anyway, I think the Master would see invasion by sea >as unfeasible in comparison to his current options on >land. >>But that's just me :) No, I agree completely...But why on earth would the writers choose that option rather than another overland assault for "1010 and beyond"? Easy way out of another world war (that Darokin could not possibly survive this time?) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:19:12 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) Jamuga Khan pondered: >Who said that those demihumans did not exist? They might even have dozens >of planets. I know that the D&D purists are probably going to hang, draw, quarter, burn, and fillet me for this, but I agree. I have never quite gone along with the notion that demihumans were created on Mystara by the Immortals (I prefer to use that as the religious and cultural beliefs of those races, as certain RW religions believe different creation myths). I enjoy the idea that if the Immortals did create these races, they created them on other worlds as well, or even that there is (as in the *gasp* AD&D Complete Book of Elves) an elven, etc. "home world." This would allow for demihuman spacefarers and the like. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:46:23 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? >that (IIRC) Hule is tied up in the Gulf with the >Baronies after 1010, and to get to darokin via sea >would mean bypassing Ierendi and Shires waters? I know >canon here, I was just wondering what anyone has done >about it in their own campaigns. > The Hulean naval attacks are briefly mentioned in PWA1. Although James said that it was a 'dropped thread', there's nothing preventing you from having the attacks continue for some years. As to bypassing other nations, remember that Hule has access to Sind's ports. Their ships are most likely to fight the navies of Ierendi and Five Shires (Darokin isn't known for its great navy). ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:43:59 +0300 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - von Drachenfels, last part You can find earlier parts at Shawn's page. So I hope that someone will comment this work. I have plans to continue next to house of Belcadiz, but I will first waite, what you have to say about this. Because I don't see any sense for continuing if noone likes what I have done. Oh, I'm sure everyone likes it, even though people on this list are notorious for not commenting on anything that's more than a screen long (with the possible exception of James Ruhland). I love it, anyway (I love anything to do with Glantri), so I'd really like to see more from you. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:41:22 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? access to Sind's ports. Their ships are most likely to fight the navies of Ierendi and Five Shires (Darokin isn't known for its great navy). > A battle between Darokin's laughable "navy" and Hules "archiological collection of rotting hulks" might be ammusing, though. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:29:32 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? >A battle between Darokin's laughable "navy" and Hules "archiological >collection of rotting hulks" might be ammusing, though. 8-) ...might almost make the odds even...:-) On a different note, we're here talking about the possibility of Hule, a naval weakling, attacking an eastern nation, albeit another naval weakling. What do you Savage Coast folks out there think is the possibility of one of those naval powers taking a hit at an eastern nation? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:55:45 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? - ---------- > On a different note, we're here talking about the > possibility of Hule, a naval weakling, attacking an > eastern nation, albeit another naval weakling. What do > you Savage Coast folks out there think is the > possibility of one of those naval powers taking a hit > at an eastern nation? > I think that they would face serious logistic problems: some of the Baronies could easily beat Darokin, the Shires´or other countries in a naval battle, but... what for? If we are thinking of conquest, it would not be possible without a landfall, which would imply a hopeless land battle. If they trick were disruption of trade routes... I do not see the point. Most of Darokins´s trade is done by land; besides, menacing trade balance would surely enrage some quite powerful naval nations, like the Guilds. Only a megalomaniac expansionist like the Master puts effort (albeit nearly a token one) in such a plot which would draw the interests of most of the Sea of Dread nations against him. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:23:36 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? >I think that they would face serious logistic problems: some of the >Baronies could easily beat Darokin, the Shires=B4or other countries in a >naval battle, but... what for? If we are thinking of conquest, it would not >be possible without a landfall, which would imply a hopeless land battle. >If they trick were disruption of trade routes... I do not see the point. >Most of Darokins trade is done by land; besides, menacing trade balance >would surely enrage some quite powerful naval nations, like the Guilds. Actually, the scenario I had in mind was something along the lines of a war (probably with Minrothad) brought about by a dispute over a third-party nation and trade or colonial rights, or over charges of piracy, etc. Perhaps something akin to the rivalries and wars between Spain and England or Spain and the Dutch (IIRC) in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Conquest does not even have to enter into the situation for nations to go to war. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:01:06 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Jennifer Favia wrote: > the idea that if the Immortals did create these races, > they created them on other worlds as well, or even that > there is (as in the *gasp* AD&D Complete Book of Elves) > an elven, etc. "home world." This would allow for > demihuman spacefarers and the like. No D&D purist will beat you up for this: Ordana may have created elves elsewhere, Rafiel knows, Garal Glitterlode created 2 races of Gnomes! But why must re restrict Demi-humans to just the three known races? There may be more than we know about. There are Billions of immortals out there, VERY few care anything about Mystara. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:28:48 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle In a message dated 1998-10-21 11:55:33 Eastern Daylight Time, piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it writes: > Yes, but I was thinking that a first level spell as magic missile would be > accessible far before firearm, if technology and magic were developed at > the same rate. In RW, people tried magic, which was not functioning, for a > long time before developing technology, so if RW magic had real effect, > we wouldn't have researched firearms at all. Or we might just have taken longer to get around to it. Remember, in the real world our ancestors did invent firearms before they quite gave up on magic. And it was by no means an automatic discovery even then -- there are many cultures in the world that would probably never have come up with firearms on their own, and there are many more that would not even want firearms if their unfriendly neighbors did not have them. So the invention of firearms on Mystara should be possible at any time but never inevitable. Those who have access to existing models (from the Savage Coast or from Blackmoor relics, for example) would certainly have an advantage in developing them -- especially if they live in a society that is NOT dominated by wizards. But we have already been through this discussion, haven't we? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:58:51 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? In a message dated 1998-10-21 19:06:27 Eastern Daylight Time, valerya@hotmail.com writes: > On a different note, we're here talking about the > possibility of Hule, a naval weakling, attacking an > eastern nation, albeit another naval weakling. What do > you Savage Coast folks out there think is the > possibility of one of those naval powers taking a hit > at an eastern nation? Another point that I think may have been missed on this thread -- if I recall correctly, Hule did not attempt an amphibious assault and invasion of Darokin by sea but merely engaged in some piracy. So my guess is that, after conquering Sind, Hule either appropriated whatever warships they had or built some of their own in their newly acquired Sindian ports. They then sent them out to engage in piracy against any ships that seemed weak enough to be suitable targets. Given that Ierendians and the Hin of the Five Shires were already engaged in occasional piracy, the addition of yet another set of pirates to the Sea of Dread would not change conditions there much. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:58:49 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Intergalactic demihumans? (was:US Beagle) Here is one idea that I once toyed with for linking Mystara with the Traveller universe: The "Federation" was the Zhodani Consulate, and Mystara was a planet in a solar system with very peculiar properties (since this was pre-Hollow World, I did not yet realize just HOW peculiar Mystara would turn out to be) that was reached by a ship from one of the Core Expeditions when it misjumped from the main route that connected the Consulate with the galactic core. The implications of this idea are rather profound: 1) Since centuries might pass between Core Expeditions, rescue for the "Beagle" (obviously a very rough translation of the ship's original name) could be a very long time in coming. If Mystara is slightly off the path shown by their ancient psionic artifact, the Zhodani would have only the vaguest idea where to look for their lost ship. In any case, it would not be worth worrying about if they don't find somebody new blocking their way on the next Core Expedition. 2) If the Zhodani ever do show up on Mystara, they would bring to bear not only their advanced technology (which may or may not prove effective according to local conditions) but a full range of psionic abilities (which most definitely would work on Mystara). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:17:11 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > By the way -- has anyone else had a go at detailing this Federation? > I could see it as a potentially interesting place to adventure -- and > whenever the ship that the player characters are on misjumps, they > could find themselves in the Mystara system and discover that their > ship is the "Beagle". Marco (DM) and I are part of the Mystara Space Project. We are currently concentrating on detailing Mystaras Solar System, but I do have some ideas on the Federation. If anyone wants to join the Space Project just contact us. Anyway.. The Federation located near Core of the Mystery Path (Mystaras Milky Way). It is dominated by a race of green skinned humans, though other 'minor' races probably also are members of the Federation. The Federation does also have contact with other civilizations. Andrew Theisen suggested a race of Adaptors and Planar Spiders, among others. According to the Gold Box, the Galaxys core is an area where Energy is powerful, so IMO magic should work there. I propose this theory as to why Feds havent developed it. The Federation society is driven by logic. They are lot as extreme as the Vulcans from ST, but they are still very scientific and logical beings. Magic OTOH is based to contradictions. Because of this, any being sufficiently trained in logical thinking will have great problems learning magic. The Galactic Federation has OTOH probably developed psionics. (Some people hate psionics, but this is just my campaign so relax :) Technology. I am trying to stay clear of Star Trek technology when developing these guys. ST tech doesn't make sense at all (Flame me). I would rather look at other works of Sci Fi such as Traveller RPG (any edition) or Babylon5. Federation Tech is very advanced, though still recognized as technology. No teleporting devices, no time travel, no mind control etc. I am still looking for ideas to how space travel works. I kinda like the Hyper Space thing from B5, and I was thinking about combining this with some form of plane travel, though I don't know how well this works. Perhaps this plane shifting technology comes from the Planar Spiders, who will earn a position similar to the Navigators from Frank Herbert's Dune... Any comments? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:47 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: > Just out of curiosity, how "human" were the Federation's people? Could the > Beagle survivors have taken up Mystaran character classes, married Mystaran > humans, had kids with them, etc? I am not aware of any canon on this though if you want my opinion: Federation Aliens should be created using human race and class options. Whether they can become mages is debatable, but I am inclined to say that they can. IMO, magical ability is not limited to specific bloodlines. External factors can be relevant. Rogue/thief, Fighter and Cleric should at any rate be available if the aliens go 'native.' Half-aliens is a cool idea, even though I usually don't like too many half-breed races. Being very similar does not neccesarily mean genetical adaptibility, but I would judge this depending on the story line. Half-aliens might be infertile like mules.... *** Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:35:18 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > The NoS story is the biggest problem with Mystaran "canon" Because it has > never been well defined, it is subject to many interpretations. > > Here is My interpretation: > > The NoS affects only Mystara. I agree on this one. This may or may not be related to the sky shield... > Mystara's world shield creates the magic on the surfaces. The NoS is like > a magic focuser, making magic more powerful. Interesting idea. > It was made into a powerful artifact by an Old one, as an experiment in > creating energy Immortals. Old Ones created it, though I wouldnt speculate on their motives... > It was altered by the other immortals because they feared the status quo > would be screwed up. Okay, I'll speculate on the Old One's motives..I think this was part of their plan all along.... > The magical drain on the NoS causes the focusing effect to be diminished > over time, so at one point in time, only the world shield will be left as > the magical source on the planet. However, the magical properties of the > world shield have been permanently weakened by the NoS's existence, so > when the NoS goes critical, almost all the magic on mystara, barring > Immortal magics, would cease to exist. These are interesting theories. Ofcourse, the NoS doesnt affect magic after AC1010. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:53:25 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst > > Here is one idea that I once toyed with for linking Mystara with the Traveller > universe: > What happens when Virus ships reach Mystara? What about the Emperess Wave, which eminated out of the Core? What effects would that have on Mystara in your opinion? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #684 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, October 24 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 685 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) [none] Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? [MYSTARA] - How to access the Mystara Message Board [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City- Sixth Avenue Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Jenn wrote: >Actually, the scenario I had in mind was something >along the lines of a war (probably with Minrothad) >brought about by a dispute over a third-party nation >and trade or colonial rights, or over charges of >piracy, etc. Actually, I set the stage for some of this in my article describing the cities of the Adakkian Sound and northern Davania. I described Minrothad as being an early arrival to the scene (late 980s AC, but it didn't tell anyone) in northern Davania, while the Savage Baronies (Texeiras and Vilaverde, specifically) are also expanding in the region. Add to that bellaynish and Renardois colonies as well, and you've got the perfect recipe for the Adakkian Sound region to be rife with warfare and piracy. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:02:37 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attaks? At 21.22 20/10/98 PDT, you wrote: >As many of you know, I am finally getting around to my >development of Hulean society/culture, Interesting. I'm doing something similar with 2 other Italian friends (including DM). >sea. Now, I have PWAIII, and nothing is in there about >Hulean sea attacks. Obviously, this appears to be yet >another dropped thread in canon. BUT, I was wondering >if anyone had taken this option. As James said, minor Hulean piratical activity is mentioned in PWAI or II. In the latest Net-Almanac Cthulhudrew gave a good explanation of what happened to those pirates. > How would naval >attacks even be possible against Darokin, considering >that (IIRC) Hule is tied up in the Gulf with the >Baronies after 1010, and to get to darokin via sea >would mean bypassing Ierendi and Shires waters? I know >canon here, I was just wondering what anyone has done >about it in their own campaigns. After WotI Hule occupied Sind, so it won't be much of a problem to get to Darokin waters for Hulean pirates. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:01:31 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? >I described Minrothad >as being an early arrival to the scene (late 980s AC, but it didn't tell >anyone) in northern Davania, while the Savage Baronies (Texeiras and >Vilaverde, specifically) are also expanding in the region. Add to that >bellaynish and Renardois colonies as well, and you've got the perfect >recipe for the Adakkian Sound region to be rife with warfare and piracy. But is there any possibility here for the war to spread to the east? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:27:03 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? > > >I described Minrothad > >as being an early arrival to the scene (late 980s AC, > but it didn't tell > >anyone) in northern Davania, while the Savage Baronies (Texeiras and > >Vilaverde, specifically) are also expanding in the > region. Add to that > >bellaynish and Renardois colonies as well, and you've > got the perfect > >recipe for the Adakkian Sound region to be rife with > warfare and piracy. > > But is there any possibility here for the war to spread to the east? > Well... it sounds quite dangerous. Have you thought about the possibility of Thyatis making an alliance of interests with one (or some) of the Baronies in order to undermine Minrothad's power and get some chaces for expansion? This should perhaps take place in a moment in which the Empire is a bit more recovered from WotI; it may have been weakened, but it could still afford that kind of ambitious plot. So, Thyatis vs. the Guilds with the help of SC piracy (technically, they would be corsairs under the Empire´s sponsorship)? What would the Baronies get? A % of the gains? Some monopolies in trade along the routes you mention? A plot like this would definitely bind the politics of the OW and the SC together. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:06:40 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? > >But is there any possibility here for the war to spread to the east? > >Jenn Oh yes! If, for example, Minrothad were to screw Thyatis over in northern Davania, there would be scores to settle. As an example, say that there was a region along the coast rich in minerals, somewhere in the region of Garganin (check my map to find Garganin, #2) and the Thyatians went there to set up shop. Let's say they were planning only a basic fort plus housing for the miners. Then let's say Minrothad, which has established interests in the region, decides to horn in as well (not being content with its share of Kastelian trade, and its monopoly over exports from Telos Takesidhi). So, they decide to attack, seizing the operation and scoring some good minerals. Thyatian retribution would not be long in coming. A similar thing could happen between Ierendi and other southeastern Brun nations, as well. I see no reason why they wouldn't want a share of the trading pie. Some Darokinian merchant, tired of being squeezed out of the saturated overland trade market, might start a new trading house in Athenos, thus adding another player in the southern sea trade. Heck, even Karameikos might want to try a little colonization and/or trading of its own, or (keeping the Traladaran legends handy) perhaps they might think that, as "descendants" of the people who founded the Milenian empire (the Traldar), they have a claim to the area. Realistically, only these nations would be involved in the short term, but I should think that Texeiras and Vilaverde, being the most enterprising of the Savage Baronies, wouldn't be above a little eastward expansion as well. Personally, I think a conflict would be inevitable, as spheres of interest begin to collide. How does this sound for a pirate-style setting? Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:17:35 -0400 (EDT) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? Andris said: >Well... it sounds quite dangerous. Have you thought about the possibility >of Thyatis making an alliance of interests with one (or some) of the >Baronies in order to undermine Minrothad's power and get some chaces for >expansion? This should perhaps take place in a moment in which the Empire >is a bit more recovered from WotI; it may have been weakened, but it could >still afford that kind of ambitious plot. > I think this is definitely possible. IMO, Thyatis should be looking to Davania as a "safer" region of expansion. It's a big continent, and even in the northern region, it'll have to go far before it butts heads with anyone else (like the Divergans, the HKs, etc.) Tribes like the Yasuko and the Bogdashkan orcs would be tough, but I think the legions would be up to it. >So, Thyatis vs. the Guilds with the help of SC piracy (technically, they >would be corsairs under the Empire´s sponsorship)? What would the Baronies >get? A % of the gains? This is possible. Perhaps they would get control over whatever colonies and/or trading concessions the Thadders owned in the region as payment? Telos Takesidhi, for example (and the way I described it), is too far away from Thyatis to be of any real consequence, but it is the largest settlement in its region, and it's not far from the sea. Vilaverde or Texeiras would certainly be happy to use such a place for their own purposes, given half a chance. >Some monopolies in trade along the routes you mention? A plot like this would definitely bind the politics of the OW and the SC together. For sure! I was thinking that the SC baronies that "co-operated" would be given free reign in the areas they gained, so long as Thyatian shipping and/or trading interests in the region are not affected. Basically what this co-operation would do would be to strip Minrothad's southern trading network away from it. As far as I described it IMC, it would be something like: 1. Total monopoly and partial political influence over the Milenian town of Telos Takesidhi. 2. Monopoly over overland trade route between Telos Takesidhi and Kastelios. 3. Ownership or partial ownership over some Kastelian trading houses. 4. Trading interests and dock facilities in Tanakumba, Yavdlom. 5. Possibly a naval base or two in the region. All this together could add up to a couple of forts, and several thousand gp worth of infrastructure, raw wealth, ships, trading goods, and the like. Of course, many of these things would have to be captured intact, but... Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:29:48 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) >So, Thyatis vs. the Guilds with the help of SC piracy >A plot like this would definitely bind the politics of the OW and >the SC together. Well...it's a very good idea, so don't think that I don't like it...BUT...Would you really want to bring Thyatis into this as a major player? I mean, if we're talking post-Wrath, wasn't at least one of the purposes of the war to break down the old orders and make things more interesting? An action like that would make Thyatis more powerful again, and then it's same old same old...? Why couldn't we see, for example, the ascendancy of Ierendi, with the help of the SC (vs. Minrothad)? Of course, that's just an example... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:41:32 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) >A similar thing could happen between Ierendi and other southeastern Brun >nations, as well. I see no reason why they wouldn't want a share of the >trading pie. I _just_ commented on this in my previous post, since for some reason I got the newer one before the old one...Apologies... But I absolutely agree. >Heck, even Karameikos might want to try a little colonization and/or >trading of its own Yes! There is no reason why not, especially now that they're independent (or now that Traladara is independent, depending on the campaign;-). They are certainly no longer beholden to Thyatis for trade, seeing as how THEY were the ones the "mother country" was relying on (in the famine of 1012). >I should think that >Texeiras and Vilaverde, being the most enterprising of the Savage >Baronies, wouldn't be above a little eastward expansion as well. Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Hey, aren't there pirates in those islands in the Archipelago? Couldn't Texeiras or Vilaverde make some inroads with them as a way of getting the foot in the door in the east, so to speak? Or what about them sending agents to use the (IIRC) pirates on Terentias to start playing Minrothad and Thyatis off against one another, thereby distracting both just enough...? >How does this sound for a pirate-style setting? > Great. But you know I love your style. ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:49:08 PDT From: "M. Velasco" Subject: [none] would a Hulean amphibious assault be limited to the ocean? or could it somehow end up crossing that big lake in the middle of darokin? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - US Beagle On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > control etc. I am still looking for ideas to how space travel works. I > kinda like the Hyper Space thing from B5, and I was thinking about Hyperspace == Astral/Ethereal plane? Would be interesting to see a "Beagle" class ship fly by a planet and accidentally bump into a party of high level planar travellers :) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:38:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Contradictory `canon` On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > Immortal magics, would cease to exist. > > These are interesting theories. Ofcourse, the NoS doesnt affect magic > after AC1010. True. Maybe the old ones anticipated this. Maybe they use the NoS as an element to keep the Immortals in line, to maintain *THEIR* status Quo. Subtle plots by Old ones could have caused WoTI. You never know. ;) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:01:30 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean naval attacks? M. Velasco wrote to valerya: >would a Hulean amphibious assault be limited to the ocean? or could it >somehow end up crossing that big lake in the middle of darokin? Yes, it would be confined to the ocean; Lake Amsorak could be gotten to via travelling upstream on the Streel, but that would imply having gotten there by ocean in the first place. :-) Jenn Private to M. Velasco: To subscribe to this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'subscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:49:27 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - How to access the Mystara Message Board As you may know the Mystara Message Board (MMB) is now easily accessible also via Usenet. To join the MMB you just need an internet access and a newsreader (I suggest Forte Agent that you can download from http://www.forteinc.com). Configuring your newsreader is very simple: set the newsserver to tsronline.wizards.com and download the list of all newsgroup. Finally sign to "TSR__Worlds.Out__of__Print.Mystara" and you're done. Good luck! ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:39:44 +0200 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue This is something I wrote a while ago for my campaign (or should I say "my former campaign" ... :-( ) It's a description of a short tract of the Sixth Avenue in Darokin City before WotI. Note: Me stands for Merchant. Sixth Avenue - West Bank Most of the shopkeepers have the home above their shop, but some of them live elsewhere in Darokin City. Usually those houses have also an underground cellar used to store goods. Right Side (coming from Old Bridge) Bookmaker: Mercutio Miggs (T4, Me4), 40 years old handsome man, owns this little shop, where people can bet on almost everything: wrestling matches, weather, harvesting season… Mercutio is also a member of the Thieves' Guild and sometimes he secretly sells stolen stuff. Doctor/Dentist: Beltramo Aumerle (C1 of Khoronus), 53 years old, has here his medical office. He is assisted by his wife Viola Faulconbridge (NM), a young (31 years old), beautiful and big-breasted girl. Beltramo doesn't use magic, just herb, ointments and his healing skills. Viola, born in Athenos, is always looking for handsome adventurers for nightly adventures… PC: the building that now houses the PC was inhabited by a couple of young Darokinians, Paolo Beltramo and Helena Sheridan, until last month. They operated a financial agency, offering assurances, loans and various money investments. Paolo and Helena suddenly disappeared about a month ago. Neighbors say that they "were a well matched couple and they worked very hard". Carpenter: the old Martino Huxley (F3, Me6, 55 years old) has here his shop, where he works with his three young sons Sebastian (F2, Me4, 22 years old), Sasheme (F1, Me2, 25 years old) and Paolo (NM, 16 years old). In a few months Sebastian will marry Giletta Rand, daughter of a timber trader from Hendry, and will settle in Hendry. Martino is looking for a replacement. Left Side (coming from Old Bridge) "Attleson's Axe" Tavern: this tavern is managed by Royce family: Santhral (F3, Me5, 52 years old), Mitrissa (T1, Me5, 49 years old), Wesley (F1, Me2, 26 years old) and Yasmina (C1, 22 years old). Santhral and Mirissa live at the second floor, while their son Wesley and his wife Yasmina bint Fuad (of Alaysian heritage) live in the East zone of Darokin city. Santhral is the typical host: always-happy, not too inquiring and always helpful. His wife Mitrissa, though no longer young, is still attracting. Wesley and Yasmine are really fond of each other. Recently though, Wesley has lost too many daros in bets, so he's tempted to recover that money in quick and not-so-legal ways. Wesley's older brother, Henry, was killed a few years ago by orcs, when he was on duty at Ft.Fletcher. Obviously his family doesn't like humanoids. This tavern is a meeting place for all sort of people: merchants, adventurers, con-men… Armorer: Shawn McEvans (F10, Me7, 47 years old), son of a Klantryan immigrated, former sergeant in the Darokinian army and expert of weapons, is the owner of this armor shop. He has a shop-boy, Ivan Sergyev (T1, 15 years old), son of Karameikan immigrants. In this shop, affiliated to House Pennydown, armors or just sold, not built. There're several armors, mainly leather ones, on the shelves. If necessary made-to-measure armors can be ordered to House Pennydown and will be available in a few days. Shawn secretly sells also stolen Glantrian magical items. Ivan is a secret member of Thieves' Guild. Furrier: the halfling Giff Gibberlin (Woodrake 3, Me9) is the owner and sole employee of this little fur and hides shop affiliated to Arden House, a minor House. Giff usually buys the hides from hunters or adventurers, but sometimes he leaves the shop for a few days to get back full of furs and hides. Rezak Xygar: Rezak Xygar (M12, Me2, see GAZ 11) has here his office of mage-for-hire. Rezak is often away for work. He does not teach magic nor researches spells and magical items, but from time to time it's possible that he hires some adventurers to retrieve a particular magical item or a long lost book. Wheelwright: the brothers Dirk and Johan van Limburg (both NM, 33 and 25 years old respectively) moved here from Bergdhoven (Glantri) a couple of years ago, because of political reasons and now they operate, on behalf of Franich House, this profitable wheelwright shop. The two brothers like drinking and sometimes they can bee seen somewhat tipsy in the tavern or walking in the night while singing. Because of their past life, van Limburg brothers do not like mages, especially Glantrian and Alphatian ones. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:05:12 PDT From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City- Sixth Avenue A very interesting bunch of NPCs, Fabrizio--have you developed any other districts?? P.S.--Too bad about your campaign :( Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 02:07:39 EDT From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst In a message dated 1998-10-22 11:31:24 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > What happens when Virus ships reach Mystara? I have no idea -- but then again, the likelihood of them reaching Mystara is rather remote. To do so they would have to get through Zhodani space (which was apparently spared the worst effects of the Virus from what I read) and then follow route of the Core Expeditions and duplicate the same misjump that the "Beagle" equivalent made. Even if a Virus ship gets there, what will it do with such a low tech world? Somehow I suspect that Mystara would be more of a danger to a Virus ship than vice versa. > What about the Emperess Wave, which eminated out of the Core? What effects > would that have on Mystara in your opinion? What is that Wave? I have read no clear explanation of what it might be. Obviously my suggested location for Mystara in the Traveller universe would imply that it was hit by that Wave centuries before the main part of the Traveller universe -- but what would the effect of that Wave have been? Of course I did come up with this idea back before MegaTraveller and TNE were published, so I really did not have to address those issues at the time. Besides, since I decided to make the "Federation" an approximation rather than an exact match for the Zhodani Consulate and/or the Traveller universe, I would of course ignore anything such as a Core explosion that would make life impossible on Mystara. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #685 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, October 25 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 686 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Space Travel (was: - US Beagle) Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:29:12 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Of course I did come up with this idea back before MegaTraveller and > TNE were published, so I really did not have to address those issues > at the time. Besides, since I decided to make the "Federation" an > approximation rather than an exact match for the Zhodani Consulate > and/or the Traveller universe, I would of course ignore anything such > as a Core explosion that would make life impossible on Mystara. SJG are doing Traveller for GURPS. In it, they are doing an alternative timeline where Virus never happens.. Another good thing about GURPS Traveller is that GURPS has rules for magic and demihumans, which is pretty handy if you are doing a crossover.. :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:05:17 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Space Travel (was: - US Beagle) On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > > control etc. I am still looking for ideas to how space travel works. I > > kinda like the Hyper Space thing from B5, and I was thinking about > > Hyperspace == Astral/Ethereal plane? That sounds like a good idea. Could this actually work? The Ethereal has shadow versions of all the planets on Prime Material as well as those on the Elemental Planes. What exactly does the void between them look like? Maybe the ethereal appears to be one universe for each of the inner planes, with ways to travel between these ethereal universes, much like side stepping from World of Darkness or Shadow Walking of Amber. By moving through these ethereals, you can somehow take short cuts easing space travel between solar systems on Prime. Ofcourse there is the danger of ending up on one of the elemental planes instead... > Would be interesting to see a "Beagle" class ship fly by a planet and > accidentally bump into a party of high level planar travellers :) Hehe, well, they would probably stay on one of the worlds, though some of the monsters might fly through the Ethereal Void.. What do you think? Am I making sense here? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 13:45:53 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst > > > What about the Emperess Wave, which eminated out of the Core? What effects > > would that have on Mystara in your opinion? > > What is that Wave? I have read no clear explanation of what it might be. > Well, the EW isn't a core explosion, if that's what you imagine. Have you read Survival Margin and/or the Regency Sourcebook? Anyhow, to keep it sort of short: the EW is a major reason why Strephon wasn't on Capital when Dulinor struck (he was out at a reasurch station at the time). The EW seems to be a wave of psionic disruption (the stuff about the Zho Civil War during the late stages of the Rebelion period seem to be connected). If you've seen the TNE cover, that black lady on the cover is the "Emperess." Their is a whole bunch of other stuff, and speculation, but thouse are the basics. As for how that all would affect/would have effected Mystara, IMO it could be represented as some kind of entropic mind-affecting force, initiated by [fill in the name of a feminine Immortal of Entropy.] But that would just be my opinion. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:59:25 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name Just thought I'd mention something I discovered, on the Web's "Baby Names" files. (No, I'm not having a kid; I just needed some Persian names for HM characters!) Remember how everyone was saying "Gareth" was a silly name for an Immortal, quite a while back? Well, it turns out that "Gareth" is a real Welsh name, meaning "gentle". Don't ask me why an Immortal with a Welsh name (does Mystara even HAVE an M-Wales...?) would choose to reveal his/her existence in Sind; it just makes me think the name might not have been totally arbitrary, on Anne Dupuis's part. The definition does seem to fit with the "Be-Kind-To-Mortals" philosophy which Gareth the Mystery Immortal was expounding. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:13:57 -0400 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue >Beltramo doesn't use magic, just herb, ointments and his healing skills. One thing that's occurred to me about non-magical physicians in D&D settings, is that they'd probably specialize in tending patients with hereditary syndromes and chronic health conditions (heart problems, epilepsy, etc), as well as the various frailties of old age. Those kinds of ailments are probably tangible symptoms of a very low Constitution score on the patient's part -- they're not a "disease" or "injury" per se -- so wouldn't be correctable with conventional healing spells. Indeed, permanent afflictions might be seen as the "will of the Immortals" and a burden imposed by providence, so that Curing them would be sacriligeous. Wounds, OTOH, would remain the priests' responsibility to treat; a "doctor" probably couldn't do more than provide first aid to someone who was bleeding. This is similar to how surgeons were a separate profession from "doctors", in days when the main qualifications for "master surgeon" were fast hands and a high tolerance for screaming. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:59:41 -0500 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name Well, just because it isn't arbitrary doesn't mean it isn't silly. 8-)~ > > Just thought I'd mention something I discovered, on the Web's "Baby Names" > files. (No, I'm not having a kid; I just needed some Persian names for HM > characters!) Remember how everyone was saying "Gareth" was a silly name > for an Immortal, quite a while back? > > Well, it turns out that "Gareth" is a real Welsh name, meaning "gentle". > Don't ask me why an Immortal with a Welsh name (does Mystara even HAVE an > M-Wales...?) would choose to reveal his/her existence in Sind; it just > makes me think the name might not have been totally arbitrary, on Anne > Dupuis's part. The definition does seem to fit with the > "Be-Kind-To-Mortals" philosophy which Gareth the Mystery Immortal was > expounding. > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:52:23 EDT From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue In a message dated 10/24/98 8:41:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: << >Beltramo doesn't use magic, just herb, ointments and his healing skills. One thing that's occurred to me about non-magical physicians in D&D settings, is that they'd probably specialize in tending patients with hereditary syndromes and chronic health conditions (heart problems, epilepsy, etc), as well as the various frailties of old age. Those kinds of ailments are probably tangible symptoms of a very low Constitution score on the patient's part -- they're not a "disease" or "injury" per se -- so wouldn't be correctable with conventional healing spells. Indeed, permanent afflictions might be seen as the "will of the Immortals" and a burden imposed by providence, so that Curing them would be sacriligeous. Wounds, OTOH, would remain the priests' responsibility to treat; a "doctor" probably couldn't do more than provide first aid to someone who was bleeding. This is similar to how surgeons were a separate profession from "doctors", in days when the main qualifications for "master surgeon" were fast hands and a high tolerance for screaming. >> one thing i did for my randel gaz was establish non-clerical healers. this folk are essentially medics for the army. the clerics acting more like the surgeons. but anyway, the theory i used was to have these folk undergo training to gain the S&Ps needed to do such a job. what they do is basically tend to the wounds of others. bandage wounds, assess the amount of damage, remove wounded from the battlefield. the big benefit is a lower proportion of deaths in the casualties. another is a quicker turnaround for wounded personel. the proportions and turnaround time depends upon the ratio of medics to troops. of course turnaround time doesn't mean squat if the enemy is upon you. time to heal is still needed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:29:11 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst In a message dated 1998-10-24 14:45:50 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > SJG are doing Traveller for GURPS. In it, they are doing an alternative > timeline where Virus never happens.. > Another good thing about GURPS Traveller is that GURPS has rules for magic > and demihumans, which is pretty handy if you are doing a crossover.. :) Of course, to give you an idea of just when I planned this crossover -- my plan was to use some slightly modified "Buck Rogers" rules for the high tech characters (with the Psionicist class added, of course -- so a "Rocketjock/Psionicist" would have been a reasonable character type). Of course there was an even earlier time when I was thinking of using the Traveller rules for a fantasy campaign -- psionics would have replaced magic, and most characters would follow the Barbarian career or low tech variations of other careers from "Citizens of the Imperium". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:29:13 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst In a message dated 1998-10-24 15:19:57 Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes: > Well, the EW isn't a core explosion, if that's what you imagine. Have you > read Survival Margin and/or the Regency Sourcebook? Yes, but evidently not closely enough. I seem to have missed a lot of the details that you provided. Thanks! Actually a Core explosion might have been easier to explain than the psionic disruptions of the Empress Wave -- the Great Rain of Fire could have been the passing of the front of that wave. But as for psionic disruptions -- Mystara is already a place where such things are handled differently, so it could have been insulated from the Wave, or perhaps the effects were reflected in any of a large variety of ways in Mystaran history. This may even provide an explanation of the apparent lack of psionics on Mystara -- when the Wave passed, all people with psionic (as opposed to magical) ability had their brains fried, and from that point on no one on Mystara could develop psionics. A fringe benefit, of course, is that illithids or mind flayers would find Mystara quite inhospitable. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:52:32 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SC in the east (was: Hulean naval attacks?) Jenn said: >Well...it's a very good idea, so don't think that I >don't like it...BUT...Would you really want to bring >Thyatis into this as a major player? I mean, if we're >talking post-Wrath, wasn't at least one of the purposes >of the war to break down the old orders and make things >more interesting? An action like that would make >Thyatis more powerful again, and then it's same old >same old...? Why couldn't we see, for example, the >ascendancy of Ierendi, with the help of the SC (vs. >Minrothad)? Of course, that's just an example... > You've got some good points here, but I see it more as Thyatis being involved because it has no choice. It has colonies in the region, so anything involving that region of Davania will also involve Thyatis by default - otherwise it could lose the Hinterlands, something it would certainly not let happen. Any role for Thyatis would likely (correct me if I'm wrong, James) be in the form of deploying troops in a certain region, and telling the Texeirans, Vilaverdans, etc. "Come this far east, and no further." Being far from home, and not having as much in the way of sheer numbers, any SC invader would likely heed the Thyatians' advice. But as I said earlier, I *definitely* see increased involvement from Ierendi and Karameikos, if only in the establishment of trading posts. One would also think that Yavdlom would be a little more...visible, too. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:55:49 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name >Just thought I'd mention something I discovered, on the Web's "Baby Names" >files. (No, I'm not having a kid; I just needed some Persian names for HM >characters!) Remember how everyone was saying "Gareth" was a silly name >for an Immortal, quite a while back? > BTW where are these "Baby Names" files? What's the URL? >Well, it turns out that "Gareth" is a real Welsh name, meaning "gentle". >Don't ask me why an Immortal with a Welsh name (does Mystara even HAVE an >M-Wales...?) would choose to reveal his/her existence in Sind; it just >makes me think the name might not have been totally arbitrary, on Anne >Dupuis's part. The definition does seem to fit with the >"Be-Kind-To-Mortals" philosophy which Gareth the Mystery Immortal was >expounding. > Well, as I speculated some time ago, Sind is a great place for new Immortals to gain a few starting worshippers, since the Sindhi are fairly accepting of most Immortals and have a whole host of them (a la RW Hindu). Still, the name 'Gareth' is a little too overused by TSR (I think there is a Gareth in every campaign world they have, sometimes more than one :) 'Garetha' has been often proposed as the name the Sindhi would use for this Immortal; OTOH, in Darokin he would probably be known as Gareth. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #686 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, October 27 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 687 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name [MYSTARA] - Re: Names [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst Re: [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:14:50 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Gareth" = an IRL name >BTW where are these "Baby Names" files? What's the URL? > Just point-and-click your way through the Family/Parenthood-related entries in the "Browse Categories" menu for Altavista, Aleksei. There's several sites to help people choose names for babies, and most of the sites will tell you names' ethnic derivation, as well as their definition. Of course it's not much use for the likes of ancient Egyptian/Nithian names, but I've found good names for NPCs from "modern" Mystaran nations there. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:14:06 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Names You know, Sharon and Aleksei, I've found a great source for names of almost every culture and a LOT of historical periods at http://www.fairacre.demon.co.uk/ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:26:57 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Darokin GAZ has a fair number of Darokinian sayings. Has someone developed similar sayings for other areas of Mystara? We may adapt real world sayings to Mystara, for example the sayings about Rome may be used for Thyatis. Anyone interested? "The die is cast", Thincol the Brave, AC 960 ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:46:48 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokin City - Sixth Avenue At 20.13 24/10/98 -0400, Sharon Dornhoff wrote: >One thing that's occurred to me about non-magical physicians in D&D >settings, is that they'd probably specialize in tending patients with >hereditary syndromes and chronic health conditions (heart problems, >epilepsy, etc), as well as the various frailties of old age. Not only that. Also: headaches, stomachaches, small scratches (e.g. those suffered by child when playing with friends in their courtyard), small burns, muscular pains... > Those kinds >of ailments are probably tangible symptoms of a very low Constitution score >on the patient's part -- they're not a "disease" or "injury" per se -- so >wouldn't be correctable with conventional healing spells. . Yes, most of them are caused by low Constitution, but not all. Cold, sore throath and similar ailments may also depend on the place where you live or work. >Wounds, OTOH, would remain the priests' responsibility to treat; a "doctor" >probably couldn't do more than provide first aid to someone who was >bleeding. Yes; wounds, serious burns, broken bones, magical and mundane diseases, poisoning and paralysis are all responsibility of clerics. Note however that most clerics will have also basic healing skills, thus they'll also be able to treat less serious ailments that don't need magical healing. IMO we can compare clerical healing to "official" RW medicine, while non-magical healing is more similar to RW "non-standard" medicine: homeopathy, acupuncture, "grandma cures" and the like. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:21:46 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Fabrizio said: >Darokin GAZ has a fair number of Darokinian sayings. >Has someone developed similar sayings for other areas of Mystara? Kastelian sayings: "Where foreigners are friendly, there's trade to be had." "The open sea knows no limits; a sailor has no boundaries." "It's been a gale of a day." (a rough day, pertaining to rough seas) "I cannot complain about my lot in life, the scales are balanced." (neither good nor bad, all is in equilibrium) "Meaner than a Mivosian." (pertaining to the people of Mivosia, a city-state on the Meghala Kimata Plains, known for its miltarism) "Sneakier than a Thadder." (pertaining to the perceived sneakiness of people from Minrothad) "If you don't apply yourself, my son, you'll never cast your sails." (not applying oneself will prevent a person from voyaging to other lands and otherwise improving themselves) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:38:24 EST From: Alex295@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings In a message dated 10/25/98 3:45:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, brizio@lunet.it writes: << Darokin GAZ has a fair number of Darokinian sayings. Has someone developed similar sayings for other areas of Mystara? We may adapt real world sayings to Mystara, for example the sayings about Rome may be used for Thyatis. Anyone interested? >> for my Randel Gaz, i made use of a section devoted to sayings to relate the Randel mindset. most are adaptations of rw military terms and sayings. some are obvious. others are .... well i am not so sure where they came from. Dyayger's Luck: This is a catch phrase for mishaps that are apparently beyond the control of the victim. No one really knows when and where the catch phrase began. There is also speculation as to if there was ever a Dyayger. A Caker: Referring to someone, as a Caker is a slanderous term for attacking his or her masculinity or fighting ability. It is often used for those that do not serve in the military. Fubar or Snafu: Description used when things are going badly or there has been a mistake. Fubar tends to be used as a verb. Basf: Slang for an idiot. Tanny: Used to describe someone that has done some heroic or beneficial feat. Tanny is a derivative of Tanneridrigidia, who was one of Randel's minor heroes. Game: Used to describe anyone displaying skill or cunning. Merc: Abbreviation for mercenary. Foreigner: Used to describe non-Randel Alphatians. Barbarian: Anyone that is not of Alphatia. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:46:03 +0200 (EET) From: Harri M{ki Subject: [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels Here is one paragraph I forget from Morgaithe's ruling period. In 979 happened one of the major happenings in Glantri's history: the return of D'Ambrevilles. This took everyone else by surprise. Among the Princes there were only elves and Morphail who remembered D'Ambrevilles personally, so there was quite a turmoil. After Etienne was again recognized as a Prince he immediately demand back his position as Grandmaster. Most of the Princes, Morgaithe amongst them, recognized that he has a certain priviledge for that. But still majority thought that it would be wrong for the current holder Chart Erewan to force him out without any fault in his side, so the demand was turned down. Next happened something that broke Morgaithe's relation with Etienne. He demanded viceroyalty of Ylourgne for himself. Morgaithe was furious he has made all his plans around conquering humanoid tribes around Ylourgne and definitely didn't want to be removed nowhere else. Morgaithe succeeded to get majority to his side in this issue but he was from this moment against everything Etienne supported. t:Harri Mäki hihama@uta.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:08:22 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals The thread on FSS Beagle and its crew made me think about this: how would an alien Immortal (if my memory does not fail me, there is one) behave towards his former nation? Would he try to gain a worshippers base in the Federation? Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:13:48 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels I take the occasion to express my appreciation for your work. It really gives historical depth to Glantri. Bravo! Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:45:02 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - TravMyst On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Of course, to give you an idea of just when I planned this crossover -- my > plan was to use some slightly modified "Buck Rogers" rules for the high > tech characters (with the Psionicist class added, of course -- so a > "Rocketjock/Psionicist" would have been a reasonable character type). > Of course there was an even earlier time when I was thinking of using > the Traveller rules for a fantasy campaign -- psionics would have replaced > magic, and most characters would follow the Barbarian career or low > tech variations of other careers from "Citizens of the Imperium". Aargh, not Buck Rogers! :) The skill system in BR is quite good though, I'll admit that. If anyone wants to use the Traveller(TNE) rules, then it might be a good idea to check out Dark Conspiracy, which uses a very similar system, but includes rules for magic and their own version of psionics.. Rocketjock/psionicist...I like the sound of that.. :D Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:50:09 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Agathokles wrote: > The thread on FSS Beagle and its crew made me think about this: how would > an alien Immortal (if my memory does not fail me, there is one) behave > towards his former nation? Would he try to gain a worshippers base in the > Federation? He could do that. There are probably already plenty of religions existing in Federation Space, though I'd suggest that clerics are rare, if they even exist. So there could already be several immortals with interests in those areas. Maybe they have come to some sort of agreement that clerical magic shouldn't be granted to followers in Federation Space? This doesn't mean they don't have followers, immortal identities walking among them and plots and intrigues as any group of immortals. Just my thoughts on the matter... Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:29:20 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alien Immortals In a message dated 1998-10-26 04:25:13 Eastern Standard Time, piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it writes: > The thread on FSS Beagle and its crew made me think about this: how would > an alien Immortal (if my memory does not fail me, there is one) behave > towards his former nation? Would he try to gain a worshippers base in the > Federation? Benekander would certainly qualify as an alien -- and from WotI it seems evident that he took an interest in his new world. Of course, who knows what he might have decided to do once the immediate crisis of WotI was over? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #687 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, October 29 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 688 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings RE: [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare [MYSTARA] - Oops... [MYSTARA] - Off topic--My Page Re: [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings Re: [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare [MYSTARA] - Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:46:28 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings How can you tell if a Thyatian is Lying? (murmurs and rumblings from the crowd) His lips are moving . . . (raucous laughter) Cyril Ivlenescu (wanderer, meddler, Citizen of the Know World, and some-time- Captain of the Black Shields mercenary company) overheard in a Akesoli alehouse, and widely spread thereafter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:45:47 +0100 From: Kristian Kramer Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Addition to Morgaithe von Drachenfels You did a good job. Keep up the good work. This is the stuff that adds a sense of realism to the game!! Kristian Kramer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:39:54 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings >How can you tell if a Thyatian is Lying? >(murmurs and rumblings from the crowd) > >His lips are moving . . . >(raucous laughter) overheard in a Akesoli >alehouse, and widely spread thereafter Oh, I'd think that one was adapted from a saying about Darokin merchants! ;-)~ Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:42:19 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings >How can you tell if a Thyatian is Lying? >(murmurs and rumblings from the crowd) > >His lips are moving . . . >(raucous laughter) overheard in a Akesoli >alehouse, and widely spread thereafter Oh, I'd think that one was adapted from a saying about Darokin merchants! ;-)~ Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:52:47 PST From: "M. V." Subject: [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare does anyone know how guerilla warfare would operate under War Machine rules? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:05:46 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Oops... Sorry about that double post (*sheepish grin*). i thought it hadn't gone through. (No, I didn't think it was funny enough to repeat!8-) Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:33:39 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Off topic--My Page Hi everyone (is everyone even here? it's been so quiet): I just wanted to say a couple of things regarding my Mystara page. First of all, an apology to those of you who looked at it using MS Internet Explorer. You probably didn't enjoy yourselves very much, since there were error messages popping up all over the place. Well, with some help from a friend I figured out that it was the background image. It has been removed, and I've been told that the error warnings are gone now. Second, those of you on Netscape were probably not able to read the text very well on the articles--it was the same problem (background image), and it has been fixed. Sorry again for all the trouble. If you were affected, please give my page another shot--I think you'll be pleased. (Reload if the new BG doesn't come up) (And could you sign the guestbook??) Thanks, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:40:13 -0500 (EST) From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare > does anyone know how guerilla warfare would operate under War Machine > rules? I would either a)handle it through regular non-WM rules or b)use the tactics chart and other options to resolve the guerilla tactics on behalf of the PCs. Especially if the PCs are the guerillas, I'd prefer the former scenario. If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if I am just for myself, what am I? - Hillel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:09:27 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings An Alphatian saying: "I did not send my 1000 Wizards to battle the elements" Emperor Zandor, right after the sinking of Alphatia (In truth, King Philipp II of Spain -read ships instead of 1000 Wizards- after the sinking of the Armada before Britain) and a Karameikan one: "There is something rotten in Black Eagle Barony" Everybody in Karameikos BUT Stefan. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:59:18 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - guerilla warfare In a message dated 1998-10-27 12:12:26 Eastern Standard Time, m_luckystuff@hotmail.com writes: > does anyone know how guerilla warfare would operate under War Machine > rules? The guerilla units would generally be much smaller and weaker than the regular units that they are fighting. The key to success for the guerillas is to maneuver so that the regular units either are on highly unfavorable terrain or are split up so that the guerillas only have to fight part of the unit. The guerillas would generally "hit and run" -- they cannot and should not attempt to hold ground against their superior foes. I suspect that some relatively minor adjustments to the War Machine rules should be sufficient to account for these factors. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:00:26 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Question Hello there...? So, is there just no one here, or is everyone waiting for someone else to say something?? Okay, I'll break the silence with a quick question. I was looking at the Savage Coast map from the RS set: is the Kingdom of Eshu (on the Immortals' arm) the kingdom founded by the ee'aar and the erduks after they fled the manscorpions? I couldn't find direct reference to it. Thanks (and talk more--it's too quiet!!!!), Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #688 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, October 31 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 689 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:08:40 +1100 (EST) From: Shawn Stanley Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals > I was looking at the Savage Coast map from the RS set: > is the Kingdom of Eshu (on the Immortals' arm) the > kingdom founded by the ee'aar and the erduks after they > fled the manscorpions? I couldn't find direct reference > to it. Eshu is the kingdom founded by the enduks with the help of the ee'aar after the enduks were kicked out by the manscorpions. Aeryl is the ee'aar kingdom just to the north of Eshu. The best places for information on these two are dragon issue 200 and the online Orc's Head Campaign Accessory. stan http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 04:35:10 +0000 From: Michael Jones Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals Flossy says He's right you know.. By the way, can you tell me anything about any of the Mystra stuff released for AD&D? I only got all the D&D stuff, oh, and the Almanacs Shawn Stanley wrote: > > I was looking at the Savage Coast map from the RS set: > > is the Kingdom of Eshu (on the Immortals' arm) the > > kingdom founded by the ee'aar and the erduks after they > > fled the manscorpions? I couldn't find direct reference > > to it. > > Eshu is the kingdom founded by the enduks with the help > of the ee'aar after the enduks were kicked out by the > manscorpions. Aeryl is the ee'aar kingdom just to the > north of Eshu. > > The best places for information on these two are dragon > issue 200 and the online Orc's Head Campaign Accessory. > > stan > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:54:27 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire I have a question on lupin languages: does someone know the relation between Renardois and Sylaire? I think that Renardois derives from Sylaire, but I don't know any canonic source that explains the matter. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:32:16 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire If I am not misremembering...I seem to recall that all the Savage Coast countries were settled by explorers from the Known World...so the lupin very likely were eventually from Glantri... I wish I could remember where I read it... Agathokles wrote: > I have a question on lupin languages: does someone know the relation > between Renardois and Sylaire? I think that Renardois derives from > Sylaire, but I don't know any canonic source that explains the matter. > > Giampaolo Agosta > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:27:52 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Michael Jones wrote: > Flossy says > He's right you know.. > By the way, can you tell me anything about any of the Mystra stuff released for > AD&D? > I only got all the D&D stuff, oh, and the Almanacs Karameikos, Kingdom of Adventure is a remake of Gaz1, though it has some nice colour art. If you have Gaz1, dont expect too much new stuff though. Glantri, Kingdom of Magic is a remake of the Glantri Gaz, though it has some new stuff in it. New spells and a new secret craft replacing the illusionists. The overall work is not as good as in the Karameikos box though. The adventures, I dont know much about them. Mark of Amber seems to be quite good, though the others seem to be just a CD and a crappy adventure with good art work. (well, colours anyway) If you havent done so already, get the Savage Coast products. AFAIK they are still available on mpgn. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:48:43 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Arm of the Immortals >> By the way, can you tell me anything about any of the Mystra stuff >>released for >> AD&D? > >Glantri, Kingdom of Magic is a remake of the Glantri Gaz, though it has >some new stuff in it. New spells and a new secret craft replacing the >illusionists. Actually, it's the same Craft, it's just got a new name (Dream Mastery). They also re-named the Witchcraft S.C. as Wokanism, for what it's worth. Whoever wrote the Radiance rules screwed up (to Bruce Heard's professed annoyance), and forgot to change the NoS's effect after Wrath: it's still draining magic, according to the boxed set. The new spells are actually rather cool. There's spells that let you mess with other mages' teleports; "flashy", show-off versions of humdrum spells like Unseen Servant; and other things that demonstrate how Glantri's a bit more "advanced", magic-wise, than your typical campaign. However, you can find all of these in the WSpCmp, so if you've already got that, don't buy G:KoM just for the spells. As a whole, the G:KoM Glantri is supposed to be darker, and less tongue-in-cheek, than the Gaz3 version. If you've got the PWAs, you already know some of the things, and people, who've made it that way. The role of New Averoigne has also been toned down somewhat, with Etienne's WotI disappearance. Other new stuff includes rules for playing "Progeny" - -- characters with a dash of exotic monstrous (e.g. part-drake, part-medusa, part-whatever) blood -- and a fairly lame adventure for applicants at the Great School. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:07:54 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire >If I am not misremembering...I seem to recall that all the Savage Coast >countries were settled by explorers from the Known World...so the lupin very >likely were eventually from Glantri... According to the online RS material, the lupins and rakasta were native to the region, although they each adopted feudal-style social structures in imitation of human and other immigrants from the Known World. Supposedly, this happened starting about 500 years ago, and the similarities between Averoigne's and the lupins' societies is just a coincidence. However, given the many discrepancies between the AD&D Savage Coast, and Bruce's P.A. version (the retroactive "Japanization" of Jollie Aulde Bellayne, etc), it's probably reasonable to assume the RS boxed set is only quasi-canon, and to write in your own connection between Renardois and Sylaire. IMC, I've run with the idea that Renardy was originally a Lupin-speaking nation, but was culturally transformed by some charismatic lupin henchmen of Claude d'Amberville -- the Lawful one cursed with a collie's head in X2, IIRC -- a couple of centuries ago. They'd left New Averoigne in disgust over the region's high incidence of lycanthropy, shortly after Claude disappeared with the rest of his family; and they charmed their way into the royal court of Renardy with their sophisticated mannerisms and flashy Belcadiz-trained swordsmanship. Eventually, the whole lupin noble class adopted their own, slightly-yappy version of Sylaire as the language of the elite, along with many of New Averoigne's other cultural motifs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:59:12 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire In a message dated 1998-10-30 10:23:24 Eastern Standard Time, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: > IMC, I've run with the idea that Renardy was originally a > Lupin-speaking nation, but was culturally transformed by some charismatic > lupin henchmen of Claude d'Amberville -- the Lawful one cursed with a > collie's head in X2, IIRC -- a couple of centuries ago. They'd left New > Averoigne in disgust over the region's high incidence of lycanthropy, > shortly after Claude disappeared with the rest of his family; and they > charmed their way into the royal court of Renardy with their sophisticated > mannerisms and flashy Belcadiz-trained swordsmanship. Eventually, the > whole lupin noble class adopted their own, slightly-yappy version of > Sylaire as the language of the elite, along with many of New Averoigne's > other cultural motifs. Bruce Heard himself suggests a very similar idea in his Princess Ark series, specifically in Dragon #179, where he said, "Many Texeiran sages still wonder how the lupins developed their present language and culture, which is somewhat different from that of the Guardiano. Many "tribeless" lupins came from the faraway land of Glantri. There, they had lived with the people of New Averoigne, from whom they had learned the local tongue. Following problems with lycanthropy in that region, the lupins migrated to the lupin nation they had heard rumors about. From the original Renardois, they gained friendship and protection. In return, the Glantrian lupins offered their magic skills and their colorful culture, which has become widely popular there." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #689 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, November 1 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 690 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings [MYSTARA] - catching up Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Re: [MYSTARA] - catching up ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:35:14 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystaran sayings "all roads lead to Thyatis" (city dwellers in thyatis DC) - -actually if youll check the maps, all roads lead to Darokin... >"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if I am just for myself, what am I? - Hillel" hey, I am an Hebrew speaker from birth and I didnt know the second part (shame on me...) Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:35:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - catching up I just wanted to say I have just finished reading the online products - "Savage Coast" and "Orc's head Peninsula" both exellent products. I am left with only a few black holes in my canon- WotI -which have been told by some of you not to bother to read... PC3- I keep looking for it (for cheap if possible) and anytihng doing with Blackmoor. If anyone can help me getting (online\offline) info on these subjects Ill be much greatful. Are there anymore online products (like savage coast) to download? I find surfing the Mystaram webring tiering. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and all the while as vampires feed- I bleed..." /the Pixies *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:51:19 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Renardois & Sylaire >> IMC, I've run with the idea that Renardy was originally a >> Lupin-speaking nation, but was culturally transformed by some charismatic >> lupin henchmen of Claude d'Amberville -- the Lawful one cursed with a >> collie's head in X2, IIRC -- a couple of centuries ago. > >Bruce Heard himself suggests a very similar idea in his Princess Ark series, >specifically in Dragon #179, where he said, > >Many "tribeless" lupins came from the faraway land of Glantri. There, they >had lived with the people of New Averoigne, from whom they had learned the >local tongue. Following problems with lycanthropy in that region, the lupins >migrated to the lupin nation they had heard rumors about. A-ha! Thanks for clearing that up. I haven't actually read the P.A. articles, in-depth, for years -- I've got almost 200 old Dragons stashed in my parents' attic, but I don't get to visit my folks very often and haven't yet convinced them to send me photocopies of the Princess Ark saga -- so I was going by the TSR website's RS download, when I wrote that. I suppose Bruce's original Glantri-Renardy link was filed away in the back of my mind, somewhere. ;-) Claude WAS the one with the collie-head though, right...? IIRC, that particular d'Amberville actually had some lupin companions with him in the Chateau. They would have been the very first lupins to make an appearance in the Mystara setting -- unless there were some in X1 I don't remember -- so I felt it'd be appropriate to link his henchmen (hench-hounds?) specifically to Renardy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:57:17 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Mystarans, Wow, the list sure is dead... anyone alive out there? When the list drops off this much, the Admin gets to worrying. I am about to start up a Spelljammer campaign (woohoo!), and I think I am going to have Mystara play a part in it all, which will require me to create Mystaraspace (Why I have not done this before is really beyond me, as it mixes two of my favorite settings.) I know some have done this already, but I am looking to do it all from scratch. To save myself time, I thought I would ask the list for a bit of help. I plan to research what has been written about the solar system Mystara is part of, as well as any other mention of the relationship between Mystara and space. So what I was wondering is, what resources discuss such things? I know the obvious ones, such as Champions of Mystara, the references in various books on the Beagle and Federation (which are in a different dimension in my games), Alphatia and its home planet (also a different dimension), and the info on the solar system in the old Immortals boxed set (which I don't have and won't be using). Other than these, is there any mention of space and Mystara? I have tons of stuff, but limited time to look through it all. I have read most of what I have, but it has been so long my memory is just a bit on the fuzzy side (due to old age, I am sure). I am especially interested in what sources have to say about the other planets in the system. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com ICQ #20039817 "Well, it seems the people see you as something of an ogre, sir." "What? Why, I ought to crush them and eat their bones!" The Simpsons *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:41:40 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" In a message dated 10/31/98 10:13:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, malacoda@lesbois.com writes: << To save myself time, I thought I would ask the list for a bit of help. I plan to research what has been written about the solar system Mystara is part of, as well as any other mention of the relationship between Mystara and space. So what I was wondering is, what resources discuss such things? I know the obvious ones, such as Champions of Mystara, the references in various books on the Beagle and Federation (which are in a different dimension in my games), Alphatia and its home planet (also a different dimension), and the info on the solar system in the old Immortals boxed set (which I don't have and won't be using). Other than these, is there any mention of space and Mystara? I have tons of stuff, but limited time to look through it all. I have read most of what I have, but it has been so long my memory is just a bit on the fuzzy side (due to old age, I am sure). I am especially interested in what sources have to say about the other planets in the system. >> I seem to recall something in the Hollow World set referring to Spelljamming. Could be just my memory going fuzzy though. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:10:38 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - catching up In a message dated 1998-10-31 05:56:20 Eastern Standard Time, ohadshm@inter.net.il writes: > I am left with only a few black holes in my canon- > WotI -which have been told by some of you not to bother to read... On the other hand, if you are seeking completeness, then "Wrath of the Immortals" is a "must have". Those PWAs do not make a lot of sense without it -- or, more to the point, you may find this boxed set quite useful for figuring out how Mystara was changed between the earlier and later products. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #690 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, November 2 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 691 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - catching up [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" [MYSTARA] - The Haze [MYSTARA] - Civ2 Mystara map ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:25:33 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - catching up Kaviyd meandered fecklessly... > > I am left with only a few black holes in my canon- > > WotI -which have been told by some of you not to bother to read... > > On the other hand, if you are seeking completeness, then "Wrath of > the Immortals" is a "must have". Those PWAs do not make a lot of > sense without it -- or, more to the point, you may find this boxed set > quite useful for figuring out how Mystara was changed between the > earlier and later products. In addition, WotI Has a fair amount of general information on the Immortals. Even if you have no intention of using the rules themselves to run Immortals, the writeups on each immortal are very handy. I don't use the WotI adventure, and will never integrate its events and consequences into my games, but I still consider WotI an important part of my Mystara collection. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com ICQ #20039817 "Well, it seems the people see you as something of an ogre, sir." "What? Why, I ought to crush them and eat their bones!" The Simpsons *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:02:41 -0600 From: anowack@juno.com (Aaron E Nowack) Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY The Old One came to Mystara. He had no name, but once he had been known as Verthandi. He no longer had an entirely separate consciousness from the group that was the Old Ones. He did not truly come to Mystara, either, but merely focused his thoughts on the world and there formed an avatar. The avatar had the form of a tall man in a black cloak. Where the face should have been, the twinkle of uncountable stars could be seen. Two brighter larger stars formed the avatar's eyes. The avatar materialized over the place that the mortals called Glantri City. He noticed without interest the magical battles raging around him. Traveling downward, ignoring the stray blasts of magic that would have stopped any mortal and perhaps an Immortal, the immaterial avatar slid through the surface of Mystara. As he headed to his destination, he realized that he would be violating the first and foremost decision of the Old Ones: We will not interfere. He knew that the other Old Ones were aware of him, had known from the instant he had decided to take action. But they would not interfere. He had argued long and hard against the course of inaction that had led this world, more important than any but the Old Ones knew, to the brink of destroying itself. The Old Ones had remained unmoved, and the first decision remained inviolable. He reached his destination, the cavern known as the Nucleus of the Spheres. He passed through the Immortal spells of warding, noticing them no more than he did the stone through which he traveled. The avatar appeared in between the beings within the cavern and the artifact. Without even a thought, he ceased all magic in the cavern. He ignored the mortals that were present and spoke to the Immortals in a low voice, "Cease." One Immortal, Rad, fell to his knees, while the other, Ixion, stepped back, his fiery brightness dulled. The avatar continued, "You have failed to understand the nature of your privilege, Immortals. You should take better care of those from which you have risen, and from whom you draw that which allows you to exist. Only then will you know who We are. He paused, realizing that instead of feeling anger from the other Old Ones, he felt pride and...approval. He pointed to Ixion, "Leave and learn." He then turned to Rad. "Come." Mesmerized, the Immortal silently followed him into the artifact. He traveled, and took the Immortal to another place. There, without effort, he wove a great enchantment. He then addressed the Immortal, "See who you are. See what you have become. By your choices, We shall judge you." The avatar then vanished. Elsewhere, two Old Ones conferred. They were the oldest of them all, the first created. One stated, "The Plan continues, the danger has been averted." The other replied, "Yes, but now the chance of success lessens, and only one world stands between us and...them. If it fails, they will be freed and the war will begin anew. What can we do?" The first speaker paused, and answered, "What do we always do? We wait, and we watch. We hope. And we trust in those weakest of vessels, the mortals." Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Wow! This is *good*, Aaron. Concise, but sufficiently different in the retelling of that final part of WotI to make the reader wonder what's going on. Now then, who are "they"? :) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:44:16 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > retelling of that final part of WotI to make the reader wonder what's > going on. > > Now then, who are "they"? :) TSR.. The Old Ones knew their multiverse was going to change back in the days of WoTI. Only the hordes of Mystarans stood against the tide of reality shifitng that was AD&D Mystara. ;) BTW, that story was VERY nice. The whole "group conciousness" idea of the Old Ones is a damn good thought. It kind of fits with My impression of how the Old Ones are, and it works well in the context. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:39:03 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY This was really, really good. Its close to the same view I took of the Old Ones with the creation myth I posted on the MMB. I picture them more like one person having a conversation with themselves. I even call them the One and the Many :) Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:37:42 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > I am about to start up a Spelljammer campaign (woohoo!), > Other than these, is there any mention of space and Mystara? > I have tons of stuff, but limited time to look through it all. I have > read most of what I have, but it has been so long my memory is > just a bit on the fuzzy side (due to old age, I am sure). I am > especially interested in what sources have to say about the other > planets in the system. I think you mentioned just about all of em. Mystaros Epic timeline has some info you may or may not want to look at aswell. Also, Marco and I are woking on the Mystara Space Project. We havent finnished anything yet, but we have loads of ideas that we are trying to put into some structures for you guys to read later on. Say Marco, should we share some of what we've got with Leroy? :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:44:37 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Haze Does someone know where the borders of the Haze are? Are Bom Jardim, Porto Escorpiao and Arm of the Immortals in the area marked by vermeil? Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:45:13 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Civ2 Mystara map The map of Mystara for Civilization 2 has been updated. The new version is available on my Mystara page, at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/Mystara/mystara.html ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #691 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, November 3 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 692 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Haze [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois [MYSTARA] - Technomancy docs. [MYSTARA] - Ahhh.... [MYSTARA] - New Website ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:07:33 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Haze >Does someone know where the borders of the Haze are? >Are Bom Jardim, Porto Escorpiao and Arm of the Immortals in the area >marked by vermeil? > >Giampaolo Agosta > AFAIK, the Haze covers the Savage Baronies/City-States in the east, to eastern Wallara/Herath/Nimmur in the west. I know for certain it doesn't touch the Arm of the Immortals, and I don't think Porto Escorpiao, or the Texeiran Colony of the Horn (Bom Jardin) are affected. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:10:57 CST From: "Ceaf Lewis" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Hey, I need all the information you can give me on: A: Land of the Black Sands B: Kagyar the Immortal Thanks! Ceaf Lewis lordceaf@hotmail.com Visit my web page at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9442 OR http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/1733 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:03:19 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois This was mostly done by Agathokles (Giampaolo Agosta), with minor modifications by me. - ----- Saimpt Malinois (The Were-Slayer) Lesser Power of Arborea, CG/Celestial of Thought, L PORTFOLIO: Hunters, revenge, courage, warriors, blacksmiths, those who go to war, glory, conquests against evil ALIASES: None DOMAIN: Arborea/Olympus/Isle of the Were-Slayers DATE OF ASCENSION: 457 AC SPONSOR: Korotiku ALLIES: Korotiku, Saimpt Mâtin, Saimpt Ralon FOES: Orcus, Karaash SYMBOL: Silver sword WAL: Any non-evil In life, Malinois was a ranger from the Wendarian Mountains. He belonged to a local variety of lupin, the Flaem Shepherd. Malinois took part in the wars against werecreatures and other shapechangers on the Isle of Dawn, in Sind and along the Savage Coast during the 5th century AC. As the most prominent lupin hero of his time, he attracted the attention of Saimpt Renard, who sponsored him on the Path of the Epic Hero. The Church CLERGY: Priests, war priests, defenders CAL: Any good WEAPONS: Lances, spears, swords, daggers and bows ARMOR: Any MAJOR SPHERES: All, Animal, Combat, Healing, Plants,War MINOR SPHERES: Divination, Protection, Summoning GRANTED POWERS: Detect Evil; Turn Lycanthropes as undead of equal hit dice BONUS PROFS: Werecreature Lore DOGMA: Saimpt Malinois requires that his followers crusade against evil, mainly in the form of werewolves. As lycanthropes are nearly extinct along the Savage Coast, goblinoids are the main enemies in recent holy wars. DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES: Priests of saimpt Malinois lead their people against evil by both preaching and example, so they often act as adventuring or wandering priests. They also supervise the acknowledgement of new heroes. Lay followers attend religious services every week, but only the bravest can actually embrace the path of the Were-Hunter. IMPORTANT CEREMONIES/HOLY DAYS: Felmont 8, Holy Call of Saimpt Malinois. In this date, ther are major processions in Rochefort and Louvines. In Rochefort, aspirant members of the Holy Order of Were-Hunters take their oath today (except those who have Saimpt Mâtin as their patron). Other ceremonies take place on anniversaries of important military successes of Renardy. MAJOR CENTERS OF WORSHIP: Saimpt Malinois is revered by the lupin folk of Renardy. The major center of worship is Rochefort, with its Saimpts Mâtin and Malinois Cathedral. AFFILIATED ORDERS: Saimpts Mâtin and Malinois Holy Order of Were-Hunters, a knightly order composed by Defenders and War Priests devoted to one of this saimpts. The Grand Master resides in the Chapter House in Rochefort, while lesser Preceptories can be found in most other towns in Renardy. PRIESTLY VESTMENTS: Priests wear white and black cowls, but they are not required to do it while adventuring. War Priests and Defenders of the Holy Order use shields with a white sword on black field. ADVENTURING GARB: Adventuring Priests always arm themselves with silver or red steel blades, in order to be ready for were-hunting. Malinoise Spells Holy Vigil (Abjuration) Level: 3 Sphere: Protection Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Duration: 6 hours/level Casting Time: 1 turn Area of Effect: 1 person/3 levels of the priest Saving Throw: None This ancient lupin spell, provided by both Saimpt Malinois and Saimpt Mâtin bestows the recipients full immunity to the effects of the Amber Lotus. Material component are a white lily for each recipient, burning incense (worth 20 gp/recipient) and the priest's holy symbol. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:01:13 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: [MYSTARA] - Technomancy docs. Ok all, the much vaunted, yet controversial Technomancy docs are on the web. Go here: http://www.wpi.edu/~eand And follow the links :) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:47:45 CST From: "Ceaf Lewis" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Ahhh.... Hey! Ahh....silence Man, the list sure has been quiet lately. I remember when it took me 10 minutes just to delete these digests. Ceaf Lewis lordceaf@hotmail.com Visit my web page at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9442 OR http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/1733 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:44:04 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: [MYSTARA] - New Website Hello all, Just a quick note to let everyone know that my Website is now officially open to the public. This is not specifically "on-topic", however it is RPG site that features this setting as well as all others that I am able to gain access to. We will be featuring contests, auctions, links to various gaming sites, free membership, a monthly newsletter, and many bits of information on the latest in the gaming world. Come on in check it out in the bare-bones. It will be added to on a regular basis. Comments to the webmaster and myself are welcomed- and encouraged. Our goal is to make this your one-stop link to all the great gaming sites out there. On this end, if there are any sites that you would like to see added to our pages- please let us know. Thanks. Jesse. Vanquer@EMAIL.MSN.COM http://www.gryffon.com/leta for all your gaming needs. ICQ. 8004143 P.S. Monitors- I apologize for the post, I think that it is "related" though? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #692 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, November 4 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 693 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois RE: [MYSTARA] - Ahhh.... Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on Re: [MYSTARA] - Technomancy docs. Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me... Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:48:13 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Looks good from here. IMC, I have St. Malinois as simply another name for the Immortal Ruaidhri Hawkbane, aka the Silver Hunter (from PC4: Night Howlers). What sort of relationship between the two would there be in your version, if any? Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:17:52 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Hi all >Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:48:13 -0800 >From: Andrew Theisen >Subject: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois I'm not sure of it, but if "Malinois" is tied with French, we don't write "Saimpt" but saint ... (for man and sainte for woman) ... But i feel saimpt very funny ;^) ... << ...When the wise shows the moon, the monkeys look at his finger.>> Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:18:12 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Hi all >Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:48:13 -0800 >From: Andrew Theisen >Subject: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois I'm not sure of it, but if "Malinois" is tied with French, we don't write "Saimpt" but saint ... (for man and sainte for woman) ... But i feel saimpt very funny ;^) ... << ...When the wise shows the moon, the monkeys look at his finger.>> Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:43:31 +0100 From: Kristian Kramer Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Ahhh.... You're right. Nowadays I need ten minutes just to search for a message from this list. It's terrible, but alas, times will change. I'm sure of it. Kristian Kramer Visit the AD&D Fellowship Holland web page at: http://www.xanthus.demon.nl > -----Original Message----- > From: Ceaf Lewis [SMTP:lordceaf@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:48 PM > To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] - Ahhh.... > > Hey! > Ahh....silence > Man, the list sure has been quiet lately. I remember when it took me 10 > minutes just to delete these digests. > > > > Ceaf Lewis > lordceaf@hotmail.com > Visit my web page at: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9442 > OR > http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/1733 > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ************************************************************************** > * > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the > line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 02:17:41 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >From: "Aleksei Andrievski" >To: "MML" >Subject: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:03:19 +0200 >Reply-To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > >This was mostly done by Agathokles (Giampaolo Agosta), with minor modific= >ations by me. >----- > >Saimpt Malinois >(The Were-Slayer) >ALLIES: Korotiku, Saimpt M=E2tin, Saimpt Ralon Ok ... but i'll write Saint and not Saimpt : saimpt mean nothing in French but saint is ... well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:21:14 +0100 From: DM Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:57:17 -0700, Our Most Illustrious Administrator Leroy wrote: <> I bet everyone got sucked in a strange magical phenomenon called All Hallows' Eve.. or Halloween parties.. :) << I am about to start up a Spelljammer campaign (woohoo!),>> Double Wohoo! I'd join happily.. if I lived in Boise, Idaho.. Anyway, best wishes for your campaign Leroy.. this is another proof that good ideas never die :) << and I think I am going to have Mystara play a part in it all, which will require me to create Mystaraspace (Why I have not done this before is really beyond me, as it mixes two of my favorite settings.) I know some have done this already, but I am looking to do it all from scratch.>> Oh, pity.. you could have worked with Haavard and me to detail Mystaraspace.. Are u sure you don't wanna a hand and you don't wanna contribute to our Mystaraspace group? << To save myself time, I thought I would ask the list for a bit of help. I plan to research what has been written about the solar system Mystara is part of, as well as any other mention of the relationship between Mystara and space. So what I was wondering is, what resources discuss such things?>> The ones I remember are: Official Sources Champions of Mystara (skyships, Mystaran moons and Mystaran Voidspace physics) Old Immortal Rules (Mystaran solar system) DA3: City of the Gods (has information regarding the Galactic Federation's burocratic system, its technology, its political status and laws) M1: Into the Maelstrom (details Old Alphatia's solar system) M4: Five coins for a kingdom (has information regarding Mystara's sun) DotE (has an adventure scenario involving a faraway solar system named Spillworld and has the first rules regarding aerial combat and ships) Hollow World (has information on how Spelljammers function in the HW) Net sources The Patera Files (Andrew Theisen's gazetteer for Patera, including its timeline and the description of its civilizations -on my site) The Matera Files (Sharon Dornoff's gazetteer for, you've guessed, Matera, including a very nice timeline which also explains magnificently the Beagle incident and the cause of the GRoF, the description of the lunar ecology and fauna, its physics and magic and many other things about its inner inhabitants -on Shawn's site) Notes on Matera and Patera (Daniel Boese's scientifical notes on the two Mystara's moons -on my site) Spelljammer-Mystara Conversion guide (information on how to adapt Spelljammer and AD&D rules to Mystara and vice versa -on my site) Mystaran Solar System detailed (info on the MSS using SJR rules -on my site) <> As far as I know, no official sources can tell you anything about Mspace planets: you'll have to detail them of your own. OR you can work with us, thus easing the task ;) PS to Haavard: I've done the Geography and History section for Uranus (HEL) and its moon. The Society and Religion are on their way to be detailed.. What about Venus? DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:37:28 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Yes. Bruce explained once why he did this. But I don't remember offhand why it was... GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine wrote: > >From: "Aleksei Andrievski" > >To: "MML" > >Subject: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois > >Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:03:19 +0200 > >Reply-To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > > > >This was mostly done by Agathokles (Giampaolo Agosta), with minor > modific= > >ations by me. > >----- > > > >Saimpt Malinois > >(The Were-Slayer) > >ALLIES: Korotiku, Saimpt M=E2tin, Saimpt Ralon > > Ok ... but i'll write Saint and not Saimpt : saimpt mean nothing in > French but saint is ... well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? > > Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT > > ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr > ou chasnans@hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:55:54 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Ceaf Lewis wrote: > Hey, > I need all the information you can give me on: > A: Land of the Black Sands Uhm..whats that? This guy cast a Feeblemind spell on me for no reason at all..hmm maybe he had a reason, but I cant remember it right now... > B: Kagyar the Immortal Kagyar was once a Bruteman who achieved immortality. He was responsible for creating the new Dwarven Race after the destruction of Blackmoor His main interests on Mystaras surface is the Rockhome dwarves. He is also the creator of the Moulder Dwarves in the Northern Reaches, but he hasnt had much contact with them after their creation. In the Hollow World his main interest is the Brutemen. The Kogolor dwarves are of the old Race and Kagyuar has nothing to do with them. Kagyar is also worshipped as a patron of Craftsmen in many cultures, in Thyatis, Karameikos and Daokin on the surface and Nithia in Hollow world (as Ka-gar) to mention a few. Hope this helps just a litle...? Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:05:54 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands >> Hey, >> I need all the information you can give me on: >> A: Land of the Black Sands > >Uhm..whats that? This guy cast a Feeblemind spell on me for no reason at >all..hmm maybe he had a reason, but I cant remember it right now... > *casts Dispel Magic on Havard* The Land of Black Sands is in Ethengar, and I'm going to beat Jamuga to the punch here. Quote from GAZ 12, Dungeon Master's Guide, pg. 54: THE VIEW: Mounds of black sand and blackened boulders and rocks stretch out in front of the party. The sky is boiling with dark storm clouds that block out much of the light. There doesn't seem to be anything alive in there, but it has a reputation for being home to hordes of undead and evil spirits. This is a place of illusion and deception. THE BLACK SAND: Underfoot is what feels like fine volcanic dust. If picked up it flows through the fingers like water. On stepping in it the adventurers sink up to their ankles, but walking across it leaves no footprints. The rocks feel solid enough, but have a disconcerting habit of moving to new positions when no one is looking. The adventurers can stare at these all they want, but as soon as they look away the rocks move a few feet. Quote from same book, pg. 7: Ever since the disaster that occurred in Glantri, it has been a land of death and decay - a place where nothing grows... (It) is shunned and feared by most Ethengars, but it is also the place where dead Khans are laid to rest... ***************** Not exactly a summer vacation spot. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:09:49 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on >As far as I know, no official sources can tell you anything about Mspace >planets: you'll have to detail them of your own. Wrong; CM7 Tree of Life notes four of the planets in the Starmap: Loth, Mym, Telax, and Zoar. I used these four in helping to prepare my Mystaran Solar System, which was largely ignored by this list because it didn't fit into the MSpace stuff. Anyway, if anyone is open-minded about the whole thing, it's at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/solarsystem.html Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:30:29 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technomancy docs. On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, SteelAngel wrote: > http://www.wpi.edu/~eand Whooha! I just had a glimpse at it and im impressed! Nice work Ethan. :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:52:46 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on Heck! Not only that, but there is some info in the Gold Box Immortals set too! Jennifer Favia wrote: > > >As far as I know, no official sources can tell you anything about > Mspace > >planets: you'll have to detail them of your own. > > Wrong; CM7 Tree of Life notes four of the planets in the Starmap: Loth, > Mym, Telax, and Zoar. I used these four in helping to prepare my > Mystaran Solar System, which was largely ignored by this list because it > didn't fit into the MSpace stuff. Anyway, if anyone is open-minded about > the whole thing, it's at > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/solarsystem.html > > Jenn > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:29:28 +0100 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" > I seem to recall something in the Hollow World set referring to Spelljamming. > Could be just my memory going fuzzy though. > > -Mage I think, it was in Champions of Mystara. There was a description what might happen to a spelljammer entering the polar holes... Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:30:02 +0100 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Old One - STORY > BTW, that story was VERY nice. The whole "group conciousness" idea of the > Old Ones is a damn good thought. It kind of fits with My impression of how > the Old Ones are, and it works well in the context. > "We are the Old Ones. Resistance is futile!" ??? Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 19:51:57 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > This ancient lupin spell, provided by both Saimpt Malinois and Saimpt > Mâtin bestows the recipients full immunity to the effects of the Amber > Lotus. It would make much more sense for me if someone could explain me what an Amber Lotus is. Andrew Theisen wrote: > Looks good from here. IMC, I have St. Malinois as simply another name > for the Immortal Ruaidhri Hawkbane, aka the Silver Hunter (from PC4: > Night Howlers). What sort of relationship between the two would there > be in your version, if any? I do not own the quoted supplement, although i have spotted a pair of coincidences which point in your direction . The most evident beside their purpose is the assignment of an indian name, Ruaidhri, which could be given to him during his crusade against the shape changers in Sind. Althought, there is something that have arisen my curiosity. Why was he called Hawkbane ? Is there some sort of Were Hawk out there ? If so, are they unique to some nation ? Thanks in advance. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:14:44 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sources on "Mystaraspace" > > > I think, it was in Champions of Mystara. There was a description what might > happen to a spelljammer entering the polar holes... > It is in HW set, DMs sourcebook, and precisely in the last two pages (all the AD&D conversion stuff) Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:47:40 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Tomas Sanchez wrote: > > > Althought, there is something that have arisen my curiosity. > Why was he called Hawkbane ? Is there some sort of Were Hawk out > there ? If so, are they unique to some nation ? > > Thanks in advance. > There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one of them. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:05:34 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Hi Tomas, how've you been? > It would make much more sense for me if someone could explain me >what an Amber Lotus is. Flowers growing along the River of Dreams which put people in the AoE to sleep. Remember the poppies in The Wizard of Oz? :-) >Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe Cool! Any idea when?? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:51:40 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Dave Keyser wrote: > There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one > of them. Or did he? Maybe there are some shelterd in the davanian mountains.. Only the DV group knows.... Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:35:42 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me... Hello everyone (and, it appears, welcome back), As you may have noticed from my post earlier today, I'm a little troubled over the tendency for some members of the list to dismiss the "non-canonical" work of others. I have been told that there was, in my absence last year, quite a big debate over canonical vs. non-canonical issues. It seems to me that the breach was not so much healed as sealed over. The dirty undersurface of these sentiments show themselves in a few ways still: Original work beyond the limited scope of primary is branded "non-canonical" outright. While technically this is a correct categorization of such work, there is an implicit labeling of the work as somehow less worthy of attention than work derived totally from published sources. On the other hand, work which is all but plagiarized from canon is hailed (as was recently) as "original" and accepted outright. Said original--"non-canonical"--work is not accepted for its creative or imaginative value, or for the depth it can bring to the game (for those who accept it), but is rather picked apart for its deviation from a minor point of canon. I saw this happen to one list member a while back, and was discouraged by the failure of others to appreciate his work on its own merit. In the drive to embrace all of canon as holy writ, canonites are forced to accept a ridiculous number of nonsensical inconsistencies and continuity errors (not to mention typographical errors) in the published material. This leads to endless quibbling over minor points and detracts from the richness of the setting. These are just some thoughts which I needed to vent. I'd be interested in hearing what anyone has to say on the matter. I am not proposing that canon be overthrown, or anything so radical as that, but only that the work of all Mystarans, canonical and non-canonical, be given equal consideration. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:06:30 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > > As you may have noticed from my post earlier today, I'm > a little troubled over the tendency for some members of > the list to dismiss the "non-canonical" work of others. > Before I slam "canon", let me just say why it is important: while what folks do in their own campaigns is (IMO) perfectly acceptable, when discussing things across gaming groups, with others (I.E. in forums like this mailing list), "canon" materiel is important because it gives us all a common reference point, some shared assumptions about the topic under discussion. Without shared, "canonical" premises, discussions become much more dificult. > Original work beyond the limited scope of primary is > branded "non-canonical" outright. While technically > this is a correct categorization of such work, there is > an implicit labeling of the work as somehow less worthy > of attention than work derived totally from published > sources. > "derived" is the appropriate term; these things tend to be very derivitive. On the other hand, though, anything (even a unique proposal) for Mystara is by its nature derivitive: for example, I may design (and am *slowly* in the process of transcribing to HTML) a "Thyatis" that is very different from "canon" Thyatis. But the very fact that I use the name "Thyatis," have it occupy the same area, keep many of the same ol' "canon" NPCs around, etc, etc: that means that "my" Thyatis is not uniquely original (especially since not only do I draw on TSR "canon", but also IRL history for inspiration.) Claims of originality can be overstated. All that said, though, I would have to agree with J. Favia that their is a certain IMO very strong and very odd attachment to "canon" on the MML. This has been noticed by others as well, no doubt. While this has some virtues, IMO they are outweighted by the drawbacks. If Mystara was still actively supported by TSR with new materiel, I could see more reason to stick strongly to "canon" materiel, events, etc. After all, new products would draw directly on old ones (inconsistancies which inevitably crop up notwithstanding). However, since Mystara is *not* supported with new products, the attachement to "canon" limits the growth and evolution of the setting as a whole. TSR isn't putting out new stuff. If the fans of the setting don't, then no one will. (actually, though, if you want to see some lively "new" ideas, I'd recomend the MMB, where "new" stuff generally gets a fairly good reception. Been so busy lately, I haven't read or posted their in a week or so. *sigh*. But at least "new" ideas are generally given a good welcome). I'm a member of a couple lists, and I've noticed something that IMO is perverse: in "living" settings, settings still supported by the game company, their tends to be more willingness to explore "non-canonical" ideas, themes, etc. However, it seems that in "dead" settings, the fans grab onto to "canon" like a wino clutching his last bottle (of course, I'm generalizing; many are *not* like this. However, The Inquisition is active in pursuing and denegrating Heresy). Some Traveller lists I know of are very similar to the MML in this regard. I don't know why this is, because, as I said above: if anything new for a setting we like, even love, is going to be created, it will come from the fans. Don't let the dead hand of canon make Mystara stagnate. Doesn't mean everyone's new idea has to be aplauded, but it does mean that the *effort* should be apreciated. Again, I think the reverse often happens: the effort to genenerate new ideas is looked down upon to some degree, even if credit is sometimes given to specific "non-canonical" creative efforts. All *that* said, however, I do think that it might be wise if the creaters of "new" and "non-canonical" stuff pointed out that "this is an alternate" or "this deviates from canon", and where, if only to 1) avoid confusion and 2) specifically point out where changes were made, so that people who like your idea know how to get from point A (their campaign's "canon") to point B (their campaign's version of your idea, which may be identical to it, or may be adapted and changed to suit their own needs). Oh, and authors of "new" ideas also shouldn't think that if someone proposes changes to it they are "rejecting" your idea (ok, I admit it; I need to learn to practice what I preach). What they're doing, in effect, is saying they like it, and have ideas of their own that could work within it. Or that they like your idea but have a way to build upon it, etc. Anyhow, I'm rambling. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #693 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 694 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML [MYSTARA] - Re: Something bugging... 2cents on canon etc [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Something bugging... 2cents on canon etc Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:33:09 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML Adding a fourth title to the collection of electronic games which contain original material, I am proud to introduce the game Order of the Griffon to the list of Mystaran canonical works. Order of the Griffon was developed by Westwood Associates, who also created Warriors of the Eternal Sun, the only electronic Hollow World game, playable with Sega Genesis. Order of the Griffon was created to run with the TurboGrafx16 system. What the heck is the TurboGrafx16 system? It is a 16-bit game system, similar to Sega Genesis. It was released just after Sega Genesis, and before Nintendo introduced into own 16-bit version. But while Sega and Nintendo survived and thrived, the TurboGrafx16 and TurboExpress systems, produced by Turbo Technologies, were doomed to the ash-heap of history. The TurboGrafx16 system actually has superior graphics compared to its counterparts, and the Order of the Griffon's graphics are beautiful. The plot revolves around Koriszegy Keep, the Iron Ring, and Radlebb Keep. The plot occurs around 1000AC, as the characters in the game interact with Lord Korrigan. As you might suspect, at least one of the characters is a member of the military order of the Church of Karameikos. Once I have finished the game, I will see about writing up a detailed account of the plot. I have seen on the web places where Order of the Griffon can be downloaded. Apparently someone wrote a Turbo emulator for the IBM and Mac. So it may be possible to play the game without having the TurboGrafx16 system, though I haven't tried it. In December I hope to finish writeups of the games Warriors of the Eternal Sun and Tower of Doom. I have finished playing both of these games, and jotted down as much information as possible. The writeup will include the plot, maps, and details of encounters(within reason). Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:27:23 PST From: "M. V." Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Something bugging... 2cents on canon etc jenn vented: >In the drive to embrace all of canon as holy writ, canonites are forced to accept a ridiculous number of nonsensical inconsistencies and continuity errors (not to mention typographical errors) in the published material. This leads to endless quibbling over minor points and detracts from the richness of the setting. well said! i personally feel that it's a dangerous thing to let campaigns to limited by mere 'canon.' especially when said canon is oftentimes inconsistent or illogical at best. to sanctify it would be a sin indeed. only we can hallow his ground. let mystara not be a cemetary for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new. canon should be a framework for the creative process to work in; it should not be the end all for a campaign. canon should be approached as a guideline in which to flesh out details or radically revise as each campaign sees fit. if a DM disagrees with gunpowder or certain magical spells, then he may dispose of it at his/her discretion. should politics or geography be immune? only to the extent that 'canon' provides a common ground upon which to stand and share ideas that each can be free to accept or reject any part of an idea is 'canon' needed. when we share ideas that deviate from the 'holy texts' of mystara we should be very clear about it as James Ruhland previously stated. each campaign is supposed to have it's own distincitive flavor. if all campaigns were the same, then they would all be bland together. if changing 'canon' makes better, spicier campaigns, then i am all for changing 'canon.' "the law should be stable but should never stay the same" or something like that. Oliver Wendal Holmes IIRC. the same should be said for canon. do you think that TSR was adamantly opposed to any drastic changes in the world of Mystara when they sank Alphatia? when they stopped publishing on Mystara, they passed a torch. any and all new material must now come not from them, but from all of those whose vested interest still lies on that world. an atmosphere of 'canon only' should not be tolerated. when the lack of any new material from TSR starts to stifle the creative processes and discourages initiates to the world of Mystara, then something has run afoul. without new blood, and new thoughts, Mystara will surely die away. a terrible tragedy for any of the Old Ones. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:38:20 EST From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt Malinois > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:03:19 +0200 > From: "Aleksei Andrievski" > Subject: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois > This was mostly done by Agathokles (Giampaolo Agosta), with minor modifications > by me. One good thing about a slow MML is that at least it doesn't take me forever just to go through the digest's listing. I'm not sure this is "really" a good thing, but hey, sometime it helps seeing the positive end of things. BTW, good job you two with the Saimpt Malinois adaptation! :o) Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:47:07 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > supported with new products, the attachement to "canon" limits the growth > and evolution of the setting as a whole. TSR isn't putting out new stuff. > If the fans of the setting don't, then no one will. (actually, though, if Call me a canonophile, but there are ways to create a new idea without destroying canon. Take my technomancy docs, for example. The citadel is a derivative work from PC2, the HW boxed set, and real life colleges, along with a whole load of imagination. In the document describing the rules for technomancy in your campaign, I give scenarios for the fall of blackmoor tech, et al. They might not be "canon" but they fit well in canon :) In my own little world, I define "canon" as being the Mystara set into motion by the last D&D supplements put out by TSR. These are: PWA 1-3, JA, CoM, and WoTI. In any contradictions between these supplements and older supplements, the newer facts are the ones that are important. (you will notice that i didn't include any AD&D material in there, this is important because I didn't like the quality of that work, and I don't consider "real" Mystara in any way related to the AD&D universe) > or "this deviates from canon", and where, if only to 1) avoid confusion and > 2) specifically point out where changes were made, so that people who like I agree. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:09:47 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon SteelAngel meandered fecklessly... > Call me a canonophile, but there are ways to create a new idea without > destroying canon. True, but for some of us, there are aspects of canon that we do not like, and so seek to change it into something we find more palatable. For me, the best example is Ierendi, the canonical version of which I cannot stand. I don't even own the Gazetteer, and that is saying something for me, being a big fan. Another example is WotI, which I do not use, nor am I likely to ever do so. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com ICQ #20039817 "Well, it seems the people see you as something of an ogre, sir." "What? Why, I ought to crush them and eat their bones!" The Simpsons *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:43:18 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Quoth Leroy: > True, but for some of us, there are aspects of canon that we >do not like, and so seek to change it into something we find more >palatable. For me, the best example is Ierendi, the canonical >version of which I cannot stand. I don't even own the Gazetteer, >and that is saying something for me, being a big fan. > Another example is WotI, which I do not use, nor am I >likely to ever do so. Well, Leroy! Then you should go to Shawn's site and read the alternate timeline for Ierendi that Sharon Dornhoff wrote! Not only is it more interesting, it also ties up some of those nasstily flapping loose ends in the history section of GAZ 4, and turns Ierendi into something more than a Fantasy Island ripoff. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:51:08 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Geoff Gander meandered fecklessly... > > True, but for some of us, there are aspects of canon that we > >do not like, and so seek to change it into something we find more > >palatable. For me, the best example is Ierendi, the canonical > >version of which I cannot stand. I don't even own the Gazetteer, > >and that is saying something for me, being a big fan. > > Well, Leroy! Then you should go to Shawn's site and read the alternate > timeline for Ierendi that Sharon Dornhoff wrote! Not only is it more > interesting, it also ties up some of those nasstily flapping loose ends in > the history section of GAZ 4, and turns Ierendi into something more than a > Fantasy Island ripoff. Actually, I have my own version of Ierendi, one very different from the Gazetteer. Not fully written up, but it's there. I might have to wander over and check Sharon's out, though, see what others have done with it. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com ICQ #20039817 "Well, it seems the people see you as something of an ogre, sir." "What? Why, I ought to crush them and eat their bones!" The Simpsons *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:30:37 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Something bugging... 2cents on canon etc >well said! Thank you! >only we can hallow this ground. let mystara not be a cemetary >for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new. Bravo! and VERY well said; can I use this for my new signature line? >"the law should be stable but should never stay the same" or something >like that. Oliver Wendal Holmes IIRC. >the same should be said for canon. Absolutely. >an atmosphere of 'canon only' should not be tolerated. when the lack of >any new material from TSR starts to stifle the creative processes and >discourages initiates to the world of Mystara, then something has run >afoul. without new blood, and new thoughts, Mystara will surely die >away. a terrible tragedy for any of the Old Ones. An extremely well articulated response, Marc...Thank you for your two cents (it was worth a million). I think that nothing can better demonstrate the slow and painful death of a world than a growing absence of new ideas (as everyone knows has been happening around here). We, as the torch-bearers of a LIVING Mystara, must not feel as if we have to stifle our creativity, and hence our world, in the name of canon. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:46:33 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon >"canon" materiel is important because it gives us all >a common reference point Oh, I agree...I see canon as a common ground for us, but it does not have to be our ONLY ground. >there is a >certain IMO very strong and very odd attachment to "canon" on the MML. the attachement to "canon" limits the growth >and evolution of the setting as a whole. Absolutely. Continuing with my "holy writ" analogy (no offense intended to anyone, of course), once a religion is over-formalized to the point that it loses its meaning beyond the ritual, it dies somewhat. The same goes for Canon, I think. If you can only see the published material as legitimate, then you are relegating Mystara to the past. It dies. However, it seems that in "dead" settings, the fans >grab onto to "canon" like a wino clutching his last bottle I don't know why this is, because, >as I said above: if anything new for a setting we like, even love, is going >to be created, it will come from the fans. Don't let the dead hand of canon >make Mystara stagnate. Amen. Oh, and authors of >"new" ideas also shouldn't think that if someone proposes changes to it >they are "rejecting" your idea. No, I think we can all handle a degree of constructive criticism. It only hurts when the ONLY thing someone has to say is "non-canon alert!"... > Anyhow, I'm rambling. Not you, James! ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:53:08 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon >Call me a canonophile, but there are ways to create a new idea without >destroying canon. > >Take my technomancy docs, for example. The citadel is a derivative work >from PC2, the HW boxed set, and real life colleges, along with a whole >load of imagination. I see what you're saying, Ethan. But I was specifically referring to those who define canon so narrowly that they will classify anything not specifically stated outright in canon as "non-canonical." Another example of this is my Traladaran culture article, which someone referred to on their site as a "worthy non-canonical effort" or something like that. Well, that work was DERIVED from canon sources (same as your technomancy docs, which I liked BTW): Gaz 1, B7 (? Veiled Society) and K:KoA. So, according to this narrow definition, my dear "canonophile," your work is non-canonical. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:58:18 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > From: SteelAngel > > In my own little world, I define "canon" as being the Mystara set into > motion by the last D&D supplements put out by TSR. These are: PWA 1-3, > JA, CoM, and WoTI. In any contradictions between these supplements and > older supplements, the newer facts are the ones that are important. > (you will notice that i didn't include any AD&D material in there, this is > important because I didn't like the quality of that work, and I don't > consider "real" Mystara in any way related to the AD&D universe) I've all but left the list (I read subject lines and specific people but much just gets deleted) but I found this interesting. This is to the list and not necessarily to SteelAngel. I see canon as very black and white. Its canon or its not. Defining canon as your personal preference of material doesn't work. I don't like the quasi-Star Trek stuff in Mystara. For me, the origin of the Nucleus of Spheres is rather goofy. I think it would be great to let canon play a much smaller part on this list. Its an exchange of ideas. Its not an design list. I don't like the idea of things being labeled canon/non-canon here. This list isn't very useful to people if its only to point out what is canon. For one reason, no one on this list can say what is canon in Mystara except TSR. They could bring Mystara back and say Alphatia never existed. That would become canon. Will the list jump in that wagon or say they are the true holders of canon? For another, canon in individual campaigns is much more important than what the MML or TSR say is canon. And isn't individual campaigns why we're all here? Individuals working to make their ideas fit into canon are no more better or worst than someone that has rewrote canon for their personal use. This list won't help Mystara continue if it looks down on the work of people that don't have access to the much of the material (it is rather old) or completely choose to ignore it and make things up from their imaginations. The list needs to decide if its purpose is to preach Mystara canon or be a place to exchange ideas on Mystara whatever one imagines it to be. I'm glad Jennifer brought this up. I've been on both sides and found that the preaching of canon is detrimental to my enjoyment of this list. It would be simplier if TSR continued Mystara but they didn't. Why cling to what a bunch of designers thought was cool way back when? Some of it seems to not have been well thought out to me and calling it canon doesn't make the silly things better. Sorry this is longer than I intended but I really see little need to label people's work as canon or non-canon. None of it is. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:34:16 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon >The list needs to decide if its purpose is to preach Mystara canon or be a >place to exchange ideas on Mystara whatever one imagines it to be. I'm >glad Jennifer brought this up. I've been on both sides and found that the >preaching of canon is detrimental to my enjoyment of this list. It would >be simplier if TSR continued Mystara but they didn't. Why cling to what a >bunch of designers thought was cool way back when? Some of it seems to not >have been well thought out to me and calling it canon doesn't make the >silly things better. I wanted to include your whole message in the reply field here, Tim, just to let it be reposted (but I didn't think too many folks would appreciate that!). It's good to hear from you again...I'm glad you didn't leave for good. I agree with you totally--big shock, I know ;-) ...We do not have to relegate canon to the Big Shelf in the Sky in order to just back off some and get some perspective. First of all, it was meant as a building block, a cornerstone for us to build upon as we wish. It was not meant to serve as an entire building in and of itself (I would find a house built of one block far too constrictive). Second, you're right--it is silly to rely completely on something which was obviously not written with the intent of having staying power (in that case, they might have edited a little better:). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com Valerya@webtv.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "The function of fantasy is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange." (GK Chesterton) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:57:15 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois In a message dated 1998-11-04 05:44:01 Eastern Standard Time, chasnans@hotmail.com writes: > Ok ... but i'll write Saint and not Saimpt : saimpt mean nothing in > French but saint is ... well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? If you are trying to guess the equivalent English word -- it is "saint" in English as well. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:30:57 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > > Call me a canonophile, but there are ways to create a new idea without > destroying canon. > I don't think any of the ideas that have been dismised because they are "not canonical" have implied the "distruction" of canon, but I could be wrong. Give me an example of an idea someone has proposed that in your opinion would have the effect of "destroying" canon, and I'll be glad to say I'm mistaken. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:39:02 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > canon. Will the list jump in that wagon or say they are the true holders > of canon? > Making no comment either way on your specific example, I have seen and heard of such things happening; fans of a setting getting irate over changes introduced by game designers, declaring themselves (in effect) the true arbitrars of what is and isn't acceptable ("canon"), etc. If you don't believe that this can happen, talk to Dave Nielsen, formerly of GDW. (the TML is probably the foremost example of this kind of inquisitional attitude, but I only know of it by reputation). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:45:33 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Jennifer Favia wrote: > > It's good to hear from you again...I'm glad you didn't > leave for good. Thanks :) > I agree with you totally--big shock, I know ;-) ...We > do not have to relegate canon to the Big Shelf in the > Sky in order to just back off some and get some > perspective. First of all, it was meant as a building > block, a cornerstone for us to build upon as we wish. > It was not meant to serve as an entire building in and > of itself (I would find a house built of one block far > too constrictive). Second, you're right--it is silly to > rely completely on something which was obviously not > written with the intent of having staying power (in > that case, they might have edited a little better:). We heretics have to hang together, eh Jenn? ;) I think its important to note again that canon in a campaign setting is near impossible because a good setting is forever growing and evolving as its added to. People can accept as much or as little as they want as canon in a setting and it works. That's the way they're designed. We all saw the Savage Coast a sparsely populated area in X9 grow in the Princess Ark articles and eventually into its own setting. Now, you can use X9, the Princess Ark articles, or the Red Steel setting and whatever your choice, its canon in your campaign. X9's usefulness didn't stop because Red Steel came out and I'm sure someone likes the Coast as X9 portrayed it. It would be completely shameful for someone that has expanded the Coast from X9 themselves to see it labeled non-canon. They most likely know that and it will come across as a judgment on how good their work was. People posting to the list aren't looking for anything but to share their ideas and maybe some help improving their work. If they're like me, they're never satisfied and comments can help reach that goal of actually being able to call it 'finished'. I still have some problems in settings that are inconsistent with themselves but it doesn't get my blood pressure up like it used to. I've found they're much more enjoyable when I let myself ignore something I don't like. James asked about someone that had destroyed past canon. I know of one. I've been working on a revised timeline for Mystara for a few weeks and have already created a creation myth for Mystara that I think is unlike anything I've seen in that area (it even renames the moon). - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:30:55 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Hi all >Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:05:54 -0500 (EST) >From: Glen Sprigg >>> Hey, >>> I need all the information you can give me on: >>> A: Land of the Black Sands >> >>Uhm..whats that? This guy cast a Feeblemind spell on me for no reason at >>all..hmm maybe he had a reason, but I cant remember it right now... >> >*casts Dispel Magic on Havard* Hey it reminds me something ... Can't we find a description in the book Dragonlord ? I've read all the serie and even if i didn't understood all i read ( it was in English ...), i think that when Thelvyn went into Ethengar to climb the mountain (what was its name ? Well there's only one in this green ocean ;^) ), he had to cross these Black Sands where he found ... Good Thursday to all ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:34:45 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Hi all >Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:05:54 -0500 (EST) >From: Glen Sprigg >>> Hey, >>> I need all the information you can give me on: >>> A: Land of the Black Sands >> >>Uhm..whats that? This guy cast a Feeblemind spell on me for no reason at >>all..hmm maybe he had a reason, but I cant remember it right now... >> >*casts Dispel Magic on Havard* Hey it reminds me something ... Can't we find a description in the book Dragonlord ? I've read all the serie and even if i didn't understood all i read ( it was in English ...), i think that when Thelvyn went into Ethengar to climb the mountain (what was its name ? Well there's only one in this green ocean ;^) ), he had to cross these Black Sands where he found ... Good Thursday to all ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #694 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 695 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:57:35 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Dave Keyser wrote: > In December I hope to finish writeups of the games > Warriors of the Eternal Sun and Tower of Doom. I have > finished playing both of these games, and jotted down as > much information as possible. The writeup will include > the plot, maps, and details of encounters(within reason). Cool! We are looking forward to it :) Where in in the Known Wold and Hollow World are these games set? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 02:39:36 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >From: Kaviyd@aol.com >Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:57:15 EST >In a message dated 1998-11-04 05:44:01 Eastern Standard Time, >chasnans@hotmail.com writes: > >> Ok ... but i'll write Saint and not Saimpt : saimpt mean nothing in >> French but saint is ... well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? > >If you are trying to guess the equivalent English word -- it is "saint" in >English as well. Waw i can speack English willinglessly ... thanks for such a good news ;o) Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:49:57 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Tim Haney wrote: > Sorry this is longer than I intended but I really see little need to label > people's work as canon or non-canon. None of it is. The only point in labeling, is to state in one's own work whether something is based on canon or not, just as James pointed out. Canon is a common ground, and if imc I decide that Halav was really an intelligent horse, and I write things with this as an assumption, people are going to be confused. If I don't point out, "I am writing under the assumption that Halav was an intelligent horse", then someone else will no doubt ask questions...sometimes rather firmly... "Um, I'm sorry, but...um...you seem to be saying Halav is a horse, am I correct in this?" or "What the blazes is this? This isn't canon! Is it?" or "What is your source?" So the pointing out of canon or non-canon is often just to see if we are on the same page, or to let someone know if we are on the same page (or book even!). It is not ever to show some sort of "Mystara elite", or at least it should not be. Elitist attitudes come in all shades of ignorance. Halav the horse could, in fact, scoff at all the human Halav's in all the multiple Mystaras. But would that make him really better? Anyway, my analogy has once again grown beyond what I intended... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:58:18 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > > This ancient lupin spell, provided by both Saimpt Malinois and Saimpt > > Mâtin bestows the recipients full immunity to the effects of the Amber > > Lotus. > > It would make much more sense for me if someone could explain me > what an Amber Lotus is. Someone else already aswered this question. However, I can add that first appearance of Amber Lotus should be in X2 Chateau d'Ambreville. > > Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Looks good from here. IMC, I have St. Malinois as simply another name > > for the Immortal Ruaidhri Hawkbane, aka the Silver Hunter (from PC4: > > Night Howlers). What sort of relationship between the two would there > > be in your version, if any? > > I do not own the quoted supplement, although i have spotted a > pair of coincidences which point in your direction . The most evident > beside their purpose is the assignment of an indian name, Ruaidhri, > which could be given to him during his crusade against the shape > changers in Sind. > As I don't have PC4 too, I cannot tell you much. What I can say is that, if Ruaidhri and Malinois are the same, in my version they will be a lupin immortal "adopted" by Sindhis, as the opposite seems to me more difficult: lupin pantheon is less open to foreign immortals than sindhi pantheon. On the other hand, if they are different immortals, I wouldn't be surprised to find Malinois in sindhi myths protrayed as a retainer of Ruaidhri. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:35:36 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Tim the Returned wrote: >We heretics have to hang together, eh Jenn? ;) I Yeah, we can all burn together ;-) >People posting to the list aren't looking for anything but to >share their ideas and maybe some help improving their work. Yes. And the last thing they need to hear is "Ho hum, nice style, but I won't comment on your content 'cuz it's N-C"...Which, as everyone knows, happens around here. (Until now...does this qualify as a coup?;-) > >I've been working on a revised timeline for Mystara for a few >weeks and have already created a creation myth for Mystara that I think >is unlike anything I've seen in that area (it even renames the moon). (*shuddering with anticipartory glee*) Oh, Tim, post it! Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:45:52 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Daly wrote: >If I don't >point out, "I am writing under the assumption that Halav was an intelligent >horse", then someone else will no doubt ask questions...sometimes rather >firmly... >So the pointing out of canon or non-canon is often just to see if we are on the >same page, or to let someone know if we are on the same page (or book even!). >It is not ever to show some sort of "Mystara elite", or at least it should not >be. I understand your point (analogy aside:). But I think the thrust of the argument in the first place was to say that this categorizational division between canon and noncanon has to end, or at least ease up. I feel that at this point, it is safe to proceed from the assumption that anything someone develops is derived from canonical sources. And I think that we all pretty much know what is in canon and what is not. Furthermore, if, for example, you write a story based on an article from Dragon (which I don't have), I will write you to ask "what was that based on?" But I absolutely do not think that we should start to automatically label our work: "Here is my Hulean Gazetteer. It is loosely based on X4, X5, and X10, but the rest is my own." That is really no different than saying "Non-canon alert," which was my beef in the first place. It may not be intended as elitism, but the result is the same. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Leroy Van Camp III wrote: > palatable. For me, the best example is Ierendi, the canonical > version of which I cannot stand. I don't even own the Gazetteer, I'd have to agree with this. Ierendi was really a joke per se. Almost like a Mystaran Disney World. However, a little tweak here and there really cleans it up :) Personally, I didn't like the events of WoTI originally, and in fact, I probably would not use the events in my campaign. I prefer the static realm of AC1000, so many possibilities, and Caurenze is still around :) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:22:19 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, James Ruhland wrote: > Give me an example of an idea someone has proposed that in your opinion > would have the effect of "destroying" canon, and I'll be glad to say I'm > mistaken. Ok, let me clarify my comments to everyone. I *like* the canon Mystara. And I Consider Canon Mystara to be pretty much the last D&D supplements out (just about anything AD&D is just a perversion of "true" Mystara.) Anyway, off the fundamentalist bandwagon, Destroying canon is doing something like "creating a supplement to the Net-Almanac that completely ignores the existence of a major canon point" I think the Almanac is the kind of project that continues the "official" story of Mystara, even with all its faults (too much DDC, guys.. NACE sounds a bit wonky..) I know everyone's campaign is different, and that is always acceptable. But the "new" canon comes from the old, and you can't create "new" canon without doing some derivation from old sources. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:47:23 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois In a message dated 98-11-04 07:01:38 EST, you write: << well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? >> Sancted = Sacred? Was that what you were going for? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon St. Ethan, Patron Saint of Technomancers, pontificated: >I *like* the canon Mystara. And I Consider Canon Mystara to be pretty much >the last D&D supplements out (just about anything AD&D is just a >perversion of "true" Mystara.) I'm agreement here, but that's beside the pount.... >Anyway, off the fundamentalist bandwagon, Destroying canon is doing >something like "creating a supplement to the Net-Almanac that completely >ignores the existence of a major canon point" Such as? It might be good to provide an example. Are you thinking of: A NetAlmanac supplement that discusses events in the Savage Coast as though those nations did not exist? The creation of a new nation, which, though well-written and fascinating, relies on events happening in a certain part of Mystara which would have disrupted the history elsewhere? Therefore, move to Davania! There's lots of room down here for everyone, and many opportunities to stretch the old imagination! :-) >I think the Almanac is the kind of project that continues the "official" >story of Mystara, even with all its faults (too much DDC, guys.. NACE >sounds a bit wonky..) But then again, the Net Almanac explicitly states that it's a "possible" series of events for the year. We took pains to ensure that no one feels obligated to use it, and we emphasize that everyone is free to do what they want in their own campaigns. All we're saying is that, if you do use it, or even part of it, you can save yourself a lot some measure of frustration and time. Even though I contribute to it, there are areas that I disagree with, but I always keep in mind that it's a group project, and there are bound to be things that I, or others, will not always like. >I know everyone's campaign is different, and that is always acceptable. >But the "new" canon comes from the old, and you can't create "new" canon >without doing some derivation from old sources. Again, I agree with you. Unless you come up with a totally original idea that has no grounding in any ideas that have gone before, everything to some extent is a derivative of something else. It doesn't have to be constrained by the older material, though. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:53:24 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois In a message dated 98-11-04 16:10:41 EST, you write: << > There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one > of them. Or did he? Maybe there are some shelterd in the davanian mountains.. Only the DV group knows.... >> But that was his Immortality mission, IIR. You would hope he did a good job of it . . . Then again, some nasty rival Immortal could reintroduce them just to tick him off. "Enough talk! " (Swing, hack, slash, crunch, et al) - -Arnold in Conan the Destroyer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:23:32 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Geoff Gander wrote: > But then again, the Net Almanac explicitly states that it's a "possible" > series of events for the year. We took pains to ensure that no one feels All the almanacs say that though. The history is what is "official" Each almanac follows the others. If your campaign deviates, that is perfectly fine, but if your campaign overthrows the Queen of Bellayne, then don't think it'd be included in a "official" supplement if that supplement never considered that a possibility. You're never obligated to use anything. Mystara is our world. But Major supplements, like the Almanac, and the DM's guide should be derived from the last canon sources without too much reality altering. > constrained by the older material, though. True. The Citadel isn't constrained by older material. The doc assumes that there was a living Elven city after they were all supposedly destroyed in the Vulcanian upheavals. It assumes that a lot of the technology survived. It assumes Immortals who deal with planes other than the prime. In fact, it's rather "heretical". from Jenn's point of view. However, It could still be "canonic". It is located in a remote, unexplored region. The rules for Technomancy are derived from the rules for invention. The history of Thimhallan as a Techno city has not affected ANY Known World politics for the last 1500 years. Therefore we could define canon and "new canon" as: Canon - the TSR supplements. New Canon - Net supplements that are campaign independant, and fit with the tone, and the history of the TSR supplements. Canon is a base of ideas. That's all. You can't call the "New Gods" outline, or the "new Thyatis" outline "new canon" for example, since they deviate greatly from the TSR ideal. However, they are interesting and useful supplements for a derivative Mystara campaign. In contrast, the Net Almanacs and such follow consistently with the tone set in the originals, and such are a good "new canon" base for those of us who follow the more "official" history. Which supplement is most valid? Niether. Every supplement should be based on its own merit, not its "canonisity". And as always, DM's are free to choose. Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:41:00 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed Saint Geoff, patron of ancient civilizations, pontificated: >Again, I agree with you. Unless you come up with a totally original idea >that has no grounding in any ideas that have gone before, everything to >some extent is a derivative of something else. It doesn't have to be >constrained by the older material, though. Absolutely, one hundred percent what I was saying..or at least trying to. It appears that we all share the same viewpoint here, but are apporiching the matter from two opposite ends. Interesting how the terminology (canon and non-canon) can cloud our judgement. Which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post. Perhaps I should state it clearly (The Creed of Sainte Jennifer of Non-Canon): I believe that the life of Mystara depends upon the creativity of its devoted followers. I believe that the result of said creativity is the development of new additions to the nations, peoples, cultures, and histories of Mystara. I believe that any attempt to constrain such creative efforts in the name of preserving as inviolable the body of TSR Mystara material runs contrary to the spirit of the MML and endangers the continued well-being of Mystara. However, I also believe that Canonical Mystara is our shared heritage and should be preserved as a common foundation. Therefore I believe that it is the role of the MML to provide a forum for Mystarans to share their diverse beliefs and developments which are derived from TSR's published works, not to serve as a shrine to those works (which, although they are our heritage, are still relics of a past age). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --Marc Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:13:01 -0500 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML At 04:33 PM 11/4/98 -0800, you wrote: >In December I hope to finish writeups of the games >Warriors of the Eternal Sun and Tower of Doom. I have >finished playing both of these games, and jotted down as >much information as possible. The writeup will include >the plot, maps, and details of encounters(within reason). Tower Of Doom. This was an arcade game, right? I believe I played it before. Was really disappointed when it disappeared from the arcade. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:12:22 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > > I *like* the canon Mystara. And I Consider Canon Mystara to be pretty much > the last D&D supplements out (just about anything AD&D is just a > perversion of "true" Mystara.) > I don't think their is anyone who is a member of this list that *doesn't* like "canon" Mystara (it would be odd to join the MML if you disliked Mystara). However, as was stated by numerous people, if you restrict your view of Mystara to only the products put out by TSR, you are insuring that the world will stagnate. IMO, all people are saying in this "canon" dialogue is that on some occassions, some members of this list dismiss ideas just because they are "not canonical". The idea doesn't even have to contradict "canon" for some folks to take this aproach, at some times. I think what they are (sometimes) really saying is that they don't like the idea. IMO, that's fine -- everyone has different aesthetic tastes, and some ideas just don't fit into other folk's campaigns. However, in my humble opinion if that is the reaction, then say it. Don't hide behind the "it isn't canon" argument. In fact, a lot of stuff gets posted, creative ideas and all, that I (for whatever reason) don't like. If my reaction is just based on my personal tastes ("I don't like that because I don't like it"), I just keep my reaction to myself: after all, just because I won't use it in my campaign, that doesn't mean someone else won't find it valuable. I generally only post critiques if their are specific reasons, something that can be debated on its merits. This doesn't mean that using "canon" as an argumentive tool should be banned (especially if a concept is being put forth as the "official" view on a area). But in my opinion argumentation based on whether this or that is or isn't "canon" is far too common. As I said in my initial post, "canon" is important. But it can be over-emphasised, and used too stridently it can choke off the growth of a setting that we *all* like (again, none of us would be members of this list if we didn't like Mystara). The greeks had a concept of "the golden mean" which I think applies here. Arguments about what is and isn't "canon" and why have their place (especially since people have different interpretations of the same materiel, and can gain insights by debating thouse interpretations). But that said, the "place" for these arguments aren't "everyplace". 'But a person needs new experiences. It draws something deep inside him, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken!' (Dune) > Anyway, off the fundamentalist bandwagon, Destroying canon is doing > something like "creating a supplement to the Net-Almanac that completely > ignores the existence of a major canon point" > > I think the Almanac is the kind of project that continues the "official" > story of Mystara, even with all its faults (too much DDC, guys.. NACE > sounds a bit wonky..) > > I know everyone's campaign is different, and that is always acceptable. > But the "new" canon comes from the old, and you can't create "new" canon > without doing some derivation from old sources. > > > Ethan > > > -- > Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 > www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. > > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:23:45 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Introducing a lost and forgotten Mystaran work to the MML Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Dave Keyser wrote: > > > In December I hope to finish writeups of the games > > Warriors of the Eternal Sun and Tower of Doom. I have > > finished playing both of these games, and jotted down as > > much information as possible. The writeup will include > > the plot, maps, and details of encounters(within reason). > > Cool! We are looking forward to it :) > Where in in the Known Wold and Hollow World are these games set? > > The Almanac folks incorporated the elements of Tower of Doom in the 1015 Almanac. It is the reference to the lich Deimos. Tower of Doom takes place in Darokin. Warriors of the Eternal Sun is set in a valley in the northern World Spine mountains, sandwiched in between the Oltecs and the Schaetaneffen(sp?). It never really says where, but caves in the mountains allow access to these people, as well as the Malpheggi lizardmen and the Azcans. Dave Keyser *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:40:42 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon SteelAngel wrote: >Major >supplements, like the Almanac, and the DM's guide should be derived from >the last canon sources without too much reality altering. It is this POV with which I take issue. The Almanacs stop at 1013. Period. Should one person from this list or a hundred people from this list take it upon themselves to make another Almanac, so be it. They are ALL valid. History after 1013 is open to any possibility, because there is no published material available to build upon. I have never understood the point of saying that the net almanacs should not deviate too much from what the last almanacs set up...that's fine for 1014 or maybe even 1015. But the world does move on...will you still be clinging to this piece of debris in 1020? I think Mystara deserves better than that. Now, don't get me wrong--I think that the idea of a net almanac is a good one...but do you have any idea of the number of people who were turned off to the project because their ideas are too "radical" (read: original)? The MML is best served as a forum open to EVERYONE, regardless of how closely their ideas fit into what someone _THINKS_ TSR _MIGHT_ have done. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #695 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 696 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:46:09 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon >However, as was stated by numerous people, if you restrict your >view of Mystara to only the products put out by TSR, you are insuring that >the world will stagnate. >"canon" is important. But it can be >over-emphasised, and used too stridently it can choke off the growth of a >setting that we *all* like (again, none of us would be members of this list >if we didn't like Mystara). Amen, James. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --Marc Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:52:26 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Jenn, and anyone else interested, here is my myth. I think its rather apparent but, just in case, this is not canon and doesn't pretend to be nor wishes to be. That being said, I do hope people like it and any faults they find be voiced as I'm always looking for ways to improve it. I've tried to give it more symbolism than fact as I don't believe even the elves have memories long enough to know any 'truths' that may have once existed on Mystara so long ago. In fact, in my work on the revised timeline itself, history is rather vague until the start of the Thyatian Empire (and its origins are still debated). ***** At last, all secrets of the universe had been revealed to the One and the Many, known as the Old Ones. No secret lay uncovered or knowledge left undiscovered. All in the universe was ordered. With the final truth made known, the One and the Many closed his eyes and began the sleep of eons. In his sleep, his dreams bore two Immortals, one of light and one of darkness. Each warred upon the other and the universe was again divided. Ilsundal, champion of light, weakened from his struggles and the night of his brother, Ilneval, champion of darkness, surrounded him. Ilsundal gazed with sorrow at his brother's hatred. Seeing the pity in Ilsundal's eyes, Ilneval's fury only increased and he resolved to rule over his brother. Shadows sliced at Ilsundal and blood poured forth from the wound and the stars were born. Then the pale Noumena stepped forth and stopped the brother's war. Ilsundal felt love for Noumena and she in turn glowed in his devotion. Noumena returned Ilsundal's love but Ilneval coveted Noumena. Hoping to entice her to his side, he voiced that he and Ilsundal should rule the skies together. Each should rule for part of a day and relinquish the rest to the other. Ilsundal knew he could not trust Ilneval and Ilneval knew this. He offered that Ilsundal's trust could be guarded by Noumena during his reign. Ilsundal and Noumena agreed. And so, the sun, moon, and stars were formed. Yet, Ilneval found dissatisfaction when Noumena continued to reflect Ilsundal's love. Finding no solution, Ilneval called forth Arik to take the mantle of darkness from his shoulders while he sought another way to conquer Ilsundal. Millennia past as Ilsundal and Noumena's love grew so that she visited him once during his reign of light and together they bore a child, the world of Mystara. Each showered their child with affection and gifts as Ilneval schemed to control them through their child. Ilsundal granted the child the ability of creation and Noumena bestow magic upon her. Again, Ilsundal and Noumena met to determine how to meet the danger Ilneval represented. Fearing they would fail alone, they searched for companions to help protect Mystara from Ilneval's schemes. As they searched, Mystara's surface cracked and molten rock met sea. From the clash between fire and water stepped forth a figure. Her skin showed like opal and her spirit glowed like fire from her eyes. Her voice ran like mighty rivers as she spoke her name, Ordana, and that she would protect the world. Without another word, Ordana turned and embraced Mystara. From her touch, plants of every name spread and Ordana was lost in their depths. Time continued to flow as Mystara flourished. Tallivai came to inhabit the oceans at Ordana's request. All matter of beasts grew to inhabit Mystara. Then the dragons took form and mastered her skies. From her forests and seas stepped forth the elves then dwarves woke from within her stony ground. Finally, her rolling meadows gave birth to the hin. Ilneval grew angry he was denied these marvels and so, created the humanoid races to oppose Mystara's creations. Again he was thwarted, as Mystara seemed to welcome them and gave them shelter. Ilneval's fury grew and Menlil, the corrupter, answered his call and together they created the darker races. Ilsundal in turn, created races pure in heart to combat the dark. More Immortals came to Mystara and sought to impose their will on her. Eventually, some dared to rule upon her surface and were destroyed as their essence was drawn into the world. Ordana appeared before the Immortals again with an offer. Mystara would accept no more of their impediments and only through one race could they further their plans. Together, the Immortals of order and chaos create humans who would be their agents on Mystara. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:06:22 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > From: SteelAngel > > Therefore we could define canon and "new canon" as: > > Canon - the TSR supplements. > > New Canon - Net supplements that are campaign independant, and > fit with the tone, and the history of the TSR supplements. I know it probably looks like it but I'm not disagreeing with anyone on this subject. Many of the views I agree with in one way or another but I must stress again that there simply is no such thing as 'new canon'. I feel everyone is being too stuck on the word canon and seem to draw some kind of satisfaction with labeling something canon, non-canon, new canon, net canon, etc. This is just heading for a mess where what truly is canon becomes lost in the name game. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:08:42 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jennifer Favia wrote: > or a hundred people from this list take it upon > themselves to make another Almanac, so be it. They are > ALL valid. I never said they werent. Possibly, there may be other net-almanacs flying around. Whose to say which one is valid? The DM. Both works would be "New Canon" > deviate too much from what the last almanacs set > up...that's fine for 1014 or maybe even 1015. But the > world does move on...will you still be clinging to this piece of debris > in 1020? I think Mystara deserves I never insinuated that the Almanacs should become stagnant. I said that the almanacs should at LEAST build upon the world set forth in the previous almanacs. There souldn't be an almanac entry that starts with a wold changing episode like "Alphatia never sank" or "The Shadow Elves died out 5000 years ago." That's what I'm talking about. Revisionist history is up to the DM, but the Almanacs should stick to the world we know. > "radical" (read: original)? The MML is best served as a forum open to > EVERYONE, regardless of how closely their ideas fit into what someone > _THINKS_ TSR _MIGHT_ have done. TSR probably would not have gone the direction that the net almamnacs did. Is that bad? No. I consider the net almanacs a continuation of a series, just as I would a Wendar Gaz. (Gaz 14?) Anyway, What it boils down to is that some supplements add to the setting, other supplements redefine the setting, other supplelments are completely new. The DM decides which one he/she'll use or make up. But using a not-as-strict definition of "Canon" there are supplements that take the world as presented and build off of it. Other supplements redefine areas, or ideas. The former is new canon. The latter are derivative works. Niether are more valid, since none are sanctioned by TSR. Maybe it's the word new canon that puts people off from my arguement. maybe I should use "canonic derivative" and "original derivative" Ethan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:13:27 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Hi all, I am very glad that we are finally discussing this canon/non-canon thing in a civilized way. But I think it is apparent that there are Mystarans who have not commented on this (unless I am wrong and there are only five of us left on the list). To those folks: I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in this matter if we do not hear from at least most of everyone. I think we all value the democratic spirit of the MML (*umm...Hi, King LeRoy!*)...in which case this debate is critical. So let your voice be heard. Thanks for listening, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:14:24 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed > From: Jennifer Favia > > However, I also believe that Canonical Mystara is our shared heritage > and should be preserved as a common > foundation. Therefore I believe that it is the role of > the MML to provide a forum for Mystarans to share their diverse beliefs > and developments which are derived from TSR's published works, not to > serve as a shrine to > those works (which, although they are our heritage, are still relics of > a past age). Well, Jenn. You've done it again :) I think 'derived' is very important in that statement. That's what people do on this list no matter if they stay within TSR's guidelines of canon or expand beyond them. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:28:13 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Tim, that was beautiful. A stunning myth, worthy of so many words I unfortunately don't have. This is the kind of creativity and (indeed) fresh air that the list craves. Am I right in thinking that this is an elven creation myth? It got me to thinking that there would be creation myths for every culture and race. Thus every race's belief that they were created first by their patron Immortal, etc. I am VERY interested in reading anything else you may develop along these lines. Of course, I am breathlessly awaiting your alternate timeline...Are you of the opinion (as I am) that some of oldest Immortals may have been human or demihuman? In which case there were human, etc. civilizations before life on Mystara was somehow "destroyed," then began again? (That would allow for at least some of the oldest Immortals to have been human or demihuman yet still remember when humand appeared, and would explain the problem of them having been sponsored by someone when there was no one to do so...) I don't know if that made any sense. Anyway, I love your work. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:43:19 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Dead Hand of Canon...the N-C Creed >Well, Jenn. You've done it again :) Who, me??...;-) Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:48:32 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Steel Angel wrote: >The former is new canon. The latter are >derivative works. Niether are more valid, since none are sanctioned by >TSR. > >Maybe it's the word new canon that puts people off from my arguement. >maybe I should use "canonic derivative" and "original derivative" I'm with Tim on this one. There is no such thing as "new canon" or "net canon" or whatever. The terminology is not only unnecessary, it is exclusionary to those who do not accept it. I'm not exactly advocating anarchy by saying that the MML should not present any one world view (even a working group's) as more "sanctioned" as anyone else's. What I sm advocating is a kind of de-centralization...an MML friendlier to individualists. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:08:22 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon > > > >Maybe it's the word new canon that puts people off > from my arguement. > >maybe I should use "canonic derivative" and "original > derivative" > Yah, not to be a nitpicker (oh, ok -- even I'm not buyin that one. I'm a nitpicker. Fine. Eh, where was I? Oh, yah): I agree with thouse who dislike the phrase "new canon". IMO, that sets up the same distinction, in effect priviledging some ideas over others. For example, which of the below would be "new canon": 1) a timeline that deviates not at all from TSR scripted events, but starting immediatly theirafter has Karameikos conquer Thyatis. 2) a timeline that deviates not at all from TSR scripted events, but starting immediately theirafter has Thyatis conquere Karameikos. The answer is: neither of them. But both would, theoretically, fit within your definition of "new canon." IMO, what their is instead is a difference between what let's call "direct derivation", ideas that are based on avoiding any contradiction or change of TSR "canon" (which both of the above would fit into, insofar as both change no "past" "established" "canon" event), and what I call "alternate" or "alternative" settings/ideas/etc; the latter is the catagory I'd throw my "Alternate Thyatis" junk into, insofar as it deviates (in some areas wildly) from "official" accessories. Now, IMO the point of this discussion is: of the above ("direct derivation" and "alternate"), which are better? Answer again: neither of them. Both of them. It depends on the campaing and the preferences of the personalities involved. The "problem" being "debated" (I actually think that the current participants in this discussion are in broad agreement, and that we're largely quibbling over what might be called "distinctions without a difference," because no one with more extreme views on canon/non canon is speaking up, yet. Um, oops. I digress, theirfore I am:) the "problem" being "debated" is that their is sometimes a tendancy for argumentation vs. an idea/proposal based solely on whether it is or isn't what someone percieves to be "canon". Rather than critiquing the proposal on its own merits, the assertion that something is "not canon" is considered a sufficient argument to discredit the idea in question. (ok, ok: I am, in the above, slightly -- slightly -- overstating what sometimes happens. But IMO it is fairly clear that "non canon" stuff is held by their very nature as unworthy, and denegrated. This doesn't *always* happen; some "new" ideas are broadly applauded. This gets back to my earlier point that may have been overlooked in my rambling: sometimes when folks dismiss an idea for being "non canonical", what they are really saying is "I don't like this one," and hiding their opinion behind an asserted argument that will be assumed to be "objectively true." The point is: while "true", the appropriate response is: "what's your point?" I'd rather have people just come out and say "I don't like this, and here is why" Or, in the alternate, if their rejection of a concept is based simply on their own aesthetic and campaign preferences, just hold your tounge and don't use that idea in your own campaign. That's what I do when I don't think I have anything *useful* to add to any critique of the proposal on its merits; just because I don't find it to my tastes doesn't mean no one will. After all, I'd venture to say that though we all like Mystara, the world being as it is (big and diverse), their are also probably things we each don't like (though they'd be different for each of us and each of our campaigns) and that we change to suit our tastes. If anything comes out of this discussion, what I'd *hope* that would be is that people would be less afraid to share these changes/modifications/additions/etc. Doesn't mean all of us will adopt everything everyone shares, and thus end up with in effect a entirely new world that is "mystara" in name only. But it *does* mean that at the very least our horizons might be broadened, someone might come forth with a perspective we hadn't thought of (and even if we don't adopt "their" changes in the same way, or even the same area, that they do, we may still get valuable insights and ideas from them). In other words, the exchange of ideas that this list is all about. IMO, invoking "canon" is a way to stifle this kind of exchange of ideas. Perhaps, even probably, inadvertently. But if someone's idea is dismissed simply for not being within the bounds of "canon", they are unlikely to be as willing to share another one ("after all, it isn't appropriate"). And someone else who might have considered sharing their own unique (or not so unique) idea might be detered from doing so. All the above said, it must *also* be recognized that this is by and large a list with very good, very constructive members. Their are few flame wars here. And it also may come across that I (and others) are overreacting/overstating our arguments vis a vi the "canon" problem, because the "problem" is not an extreme one. It is, however, a tendancy. And IMO it is better to get that problem out in the open and fully discussed *before* it becomes an even more major impediment to open dialogue and new ideas than it is now. Does that make any sense? Probably not. Oh well. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:16:00 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth > From: Jennifer Favia > > Am I right in thinking that this is an elven creation > myth? It got me to thinking that there would be > creation myths for every culture and race. Thus every > race's belief that they were created first by their > patron Immortal, etc. I am VERY interested in reading > anything else you may develop along these lines. Thanks for the kind words, Jenn :) You'd be correct that its an elven myth but any dwarf will tell you, there was land before forests so dwarves are the original race. Then humans will point out that they were created as the chosen of Immortal ideas. The hin will probably point out that the greatest gifts of the world are found in meadows and hills. And of course, the dragons were mentioned first so how could they not be the first creations I've tried to create a myth that makes everyone of them right from their point of view without necessarily making the others completely false. Its a debate that boils down to an agreement to disagree because I hope I've cut off all possible 'proof' that one race is more important than the other. Even the humanoids can say that their creator had the right of might and only Ilsundal and Noumena's trickery stole that from him. There will be more as I look at the gifts given to humans by the main three Immortals in the myth. > Of course, I am breathlessly awaiting your alternate > timeline...Are you of the opinion (as I am) that some > of oldest Immortals may have been human or demihuman? Some will be originally human, definitely. At least that will be what many will say. When it comes to the Immortals, I like that saying less about their origins adds more to them. About demihumans. Demihumans will scoff at the idea any of their number would betray their beliefs and leave the gifts given by Mystara itself (but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened). You saw in the myth that the elves dwelled with the forest-spirits. Those spirits will become a very important cornerstone in their view of their religion, magic, and very presence on Mystara. Dwarves also develop a strong tie to the elements that will be very important to them. The hin, on the other hand, see the world as a gift and just the running of a hand through grass is a pleasure not to be looked down on. Becoming an Immortal means moving to a place beyond these things and forever severing the ties with Mystara. The part where Mystara absorbed Immortals who stood up on her face plays a big part in my version. No Immortal has that power. Manifesting an 'avatar' on her surface means completely sacrificing part of their power. Those manifestations can only stay whole for a little while and once there, can't be recalled before Mystara takes that power for her own. The most powerful creation is the world itself. Humans are much more likely to seek and obtain Immortality (its not so easy a thing to accomplish as before. Not that before wasn't hard but its really hard in my version). Mainly because they don't have that inbreed connection to the world. They are creations of the Immortals unlike the elves, dwarves, and hin. Not even many of the humanoids will not seek Immortal status as they were meant to destroy Mystara's creations that never should have been. That would be impossible as an Immortal. Ilneval is more than a little upset that Ilsundal gave the power of creation to Mystara. In fact, I think Ilneval should be credited with creating the greatest destroyer in existance, time. > In which case there were human, etc. civilizations > before life on Mystara was somehow "destroyed," then > began again? (That would allow for at least some of the > oldest Immortals to have been human or demihuman yet > still remember when humand appeared, and would explain > the problem of them having been sponsored by someone > when there was no one to do so...) I don't know if that > made any sense. I'm hoping that my revised timeline is open enough to have many civilizations rise and fall. Blackmoor is the first though and far more sinister than an accidental nuclear explosion. I've played around using dates but I've changed my mind on that. Human history will be divided into dates (elves, dwarves, and hin use ages) but human history becomes lost each time a great civilization dies (lots of dark ages) and so the only dates they have go back to the rise of the Thyatian Empire. They never get a chance to develop any kind of archeological skills that might answer questions on the past (yet). So, there's lots they simply don't know and their myths are much more important for looking for answers. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:14:07 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Dear Mystarans, I have tried to refrain from this debate, not for a lack of interest, but due to the fact of "canonicity" being an important topic in my PhD studies (Bible and other sacred stuff), so, I did not "defile" a hobby like Mystara with that brainshaking. Nevertheless, answering to Jenn's call, I would like to make a couple of points about canonicity should be for a hobby (at University, things become more thorny ;-): 1. The core of the canon idea is imposed by the powers who take care of the Text. In our case, the Text were Mystara products, first in the hands of TSR, now, mainly, in the hands of the people writing at collaborating around the MML (Almanacs, atlases, simple ideas...) 2. Canon must then be ratificated by the community: EG, if everybody found a supplement, adventure or item particularly undesirable or conflictive with the majority of accepted elements, it would be rejected, no matter its TSR label (I think that is the case of a product like The Book of Wondrous Inventions... sorry if somebody around there defends it... 3. For us, at this moment, canon would only have one aim: define a line of usefulness in the majority of our campaigns and projects: the list is quite plural and we are here on our own, so our efforts should keep a degree of solidarity and group spirit (within our individual preferences and creativities). An item should be considered canon if it could be used by a good deal of Mystara fans and did not cause gross conflict with what other people are doing. For instance, an essay on history which develops Mystaran future history making it spin solely around a country, or which nullifies the concept of the Immortals or which suppresses a character class or causes a great unbalance in what other people could find enjoyable, should be definitely treated as non-canon (think of an idea of having the NoS recently discovered by the shadowelves drain ALL magic. That would make enjoyment of Mystara quite difficult for a lot of people...) 4. Non-canonicity does not mean censorship, of course. Perhaps somebody around there finds the idea of somebody else's "alternative Mystara" quite appealing and perhaps some non-canonic items show interesting parts which can be promptly adapted. We should only have clearly in our minds that the MML does NOT spin around our individual campaings (where Thyatis might hold dominion over all the KW, magic have perished or the WotI never have taken place), but about a shared effort to make this brave old (and orphaned) world alive and growing; so, the mainstream activies on the list should have a common utility. I have talked about extreme cases, so grayer ones should be left open. I, for instance, love James' Thyatis info: it is quite "alternative" to DotE, but does not me feel any gross conflict against Mystaran history or present-day politics. Others won't like it and ignore it... To put it short, canon is a concept which spins around the acceptance and consecration of already-written texts; in the case of Mystara, where - -hopefully- the flow of contributions is continuing indefinitely, the only canon rule is the interest and usefulness of the item to us members. Andrés (who got a headache after reading Bloom's "The Western Canon") *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:54:04 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >But that was his Immortality mission, IIR. You would hope he did a good job of >it . . . > >Then again, some nasty rival Immortal could reintroduce them just to tick him >off. > Zirchev comes to mind. About Ruaidhri and Malinois being the same - now that you mention it, it is possible. They've got similar attitudes (bent on revenge, hate all lycanthropes; though I'm not sure to what extent that applies to Malinois; does he hate *all* lycanthropes regardless of their personality or species?) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:26:21 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Okay, I'll say something about this whole Canon thing. Canon is anything published by TSR, and anything else isn't. That doesn't mean stuff like the NetAlmanac and things like the Davania project aren't any good; they are, if you need the information. If your campaign is set in the Gazetteer era, then the Net Almanacs are useless to you, since they cover the future. If you're playing WotI, the Net Almanacs are still no good, so don't worry about whether or not they are official. If you like the stuff in Net Almanac, USE IT!!! If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT!!! But let's not waste time with a debate on what we're allowed to consider canon. Here's a new definition of Canon: Anything I want to put in my campaign because I'm the DM and what I say goes. How's that? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:19:10 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments In a message dated 11/5/98 3:38:17 PM, Jenn wrote: <> Well, since you asked . . . I've been reading (skimming?) most of this recent thread. I say thread, cause it doesn't seem like an argument or debate, more an airing of opinions without a great deal of contention. The real contention on this issue seems to have stemmed from previous exchanges by individuals, and especially seems centered on the work of the Net Almanacs and the Net Gazettes. That a certain portion of the MML is driven to put in all the work to create these items is very laudible. I find them a lot of fun. But have I used any of it yet? No. I'm not currently running a Mystara game. Would I use it if I was? Maybe, maybe not. Personally I like my Mystara Pre-Wrath, so when I run a campaign it'll probable be set then. Guess what? "Ain't no body's business but my Baby" (Imagine, if you will, that I sang that last quote like Louis Armstrong) I won't come onto the List and try and convince anyone that just cause my players fireballed Fort Doom (I like the Euro-Gaz name better) that there is no Black Baron from 1000 on. Now, by the same vein, just cause I, (as a DM, and more informed Mystara-phile than my players) happen to get an idea and have access to the Web/MML, that doesn't mean you all have to accept it either. And guess what? If some fellow gamers and I sit around for months and write up a future scenario, quoting chapter and verse from TSR products, with more action and suspense than a summer blockbuster, more laughs than a Simpsons marathon, with a tragic Act III plot twist that doesn't leave a dry eye on the list . . . And yet still leaves room for widespread player involvement/significant to the outcome [which, by the way, I will soon be posting on my web site at WWW.Itaintgonnahappen.com] . . . Well, when we post this magnum opus, if you don't like it, you don't have to use it or even read it. And I can't make you. But if you love it, you're free to copy it, print it, play it, reply to it, edit it, tweek it, form a religion around it . . . Found BoBoCon, and get Weis and Hickman to come sign Drangonlance books at it . . . Whatever. I'd love to hear that others liked my work . . . I wouldn't work on it and post it if I was looking for abuse. (not quite that sick yet). I'm posting to share . . . yadda yadda, yadaa . . . Purpose of the list . . .keep Mystara alive . . .blah blah blah . . . But by the same token, the moment I post it, I should be prepared for a wave of responses saying "HATED IT!" Just cause I spent time on it, doesn't validate it. Just cause I'm building on one of your ideas from last year doesn't mean you can stop me from writing it. It's all being put out there . . . And has to live or die in others campaigns as it will. Canon, non-canon, new cannon, Diane Canon, it's all one. What matters is how you play it. I don't always have the time to post to others when I enjoy their ideas, but trust me, I snip stuff and save it to my hard disk all the time. I bookmark a lot of you all's websites so I can go back. And I should be better about passing out my congrats and praises, even if it's just a quick "Ditto" to another's gushing post, and not a black-tie event presentation of the "BoBo's" (. . .and the "BoBo" for Best-tieing-together- of-two-dropped-TSR-plotlines goes to . . . . (rrrrrippp) . . . oh my God, It's a tie! Jammuga . . . Jenn . . . come on down!) BUT, I do try to keep my comments to myself if I don't love the latest developments in Davania or was bored by the latest short story. That doesn't mean folks should stop posting, but I hope you aren't doing all this work just to hear what I have to say. Now, here's the big ironic end to this post . . . That said, what exactly do you mean by "We'll never get anywhere in this matter . . ." Is there somewhere we can get? What are you looking for by bringing this up? Do you want posters to be more polite? More prolific? More vocal in their praise/damnation? Do you want to join the Net Almanac team or have them hunted down like rabid dogs? Do you want there to be a published MML guideline for posting? Should we ban the C-word? Please answer any or all of these questions . . . Or don't. That's the beauty of all this. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #696 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 697 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon [MYSTARA] - Newbie Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon [MYSTARA] - Welcome Re: [MYSTARA] - Newbie Re: [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments RE: [MYSTARA] - Welcome Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:36:15 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > > Now, here's the big ironic end to this post . . . That said, what exactly do > you mean by "We'll never get anywhere in this matter . . ." Is there somewhere > we can get? What are you looking for by bringing this up? Do you want posters > to be more polite? More prolific? More vocal in their praise/damnation? Do you > want to join the Net Almanac team or have them hunted down like rabid dogs? Do > you want there to be a published MML guideline for posting? Should we ban the > C-word? > > Please answer any or all of these questions . . . Or don't. That's the beauty > of all this. > Ok, well, my main answer to your questions is this: No, I don't want to ban the C-word. However, it is over-invoked, and often used in ways that I'd say are examples of intellectual lazyness -- puncturing ideas because they don't fit within (percieved) "canon", when IMO the real reason behind the invocation of "canon" and "not canon" is usually for other reasons. Like I said elsewhere, I think sometimes people use the "it isn't canonical" argument to dismiss an idea when what they really mean is "I don't like this idea," but want to *appear* to be using an objective standard of evaluation. They aren't, really. IMO, I think we'd *all* get a lot more out of critiques in general if they were based on the merits of ideas, rather than the invocation of the C-word; *why* someone doesn't like an idea, and thus how it might be improved. Most posters on the MML are polite, most of the time (we all -- noitably including myself -- have times when we stick our foots into our mouths). Problem with over use of the C-word isn't that it is not polite, but that it doesn't advance discourse at all (again, their are some occasions where discussions of what is and isn't canonical, according to the perceptions of the participants in the dialogue, is appropriate; that's why I wouldn't go so far as banning it. Not that I *could* invoke a ban even if I wanted to). I'd like to see people more vocal in praise and/or damnation, within the following parameters: 1) civil discourse. 2) precise argumentation. I.E. their is no reason to compose a post that just consists of the line "I don't like it", just like IMO their is almost never a reason to compose a post that consists in its entirety of saying "that isn't canonical. It contradicts thus and such in product X." What *is* appropriate however are arguments with more detail ("I don't like it for these reasons, and I think it could be improved in these ways" or "you say that the so and so's are thus and such, but in product X it actually says they are this and that." IMO, the later argument, a "canon" based argument can be important if an idea is based on remaining "faithful" to established "canon," because sometimes people miss things and they may appreciate being reminded of them. However, if that person comes back and says "yes, I'm aware of that, but I decided to change how the so and so's do thus and such," then they aren't "wrong". Or rather they are "wrong" but not if their concept works for them and others, which is all that matters.) As for published guidelines for posting, I believe their are such, somewhere. The MML has a monitor (wave to the croud). However, that person's main job isn't to limit discourse, but mainly to insure that it is civil. Someone could go around invoking the C-word at every oportunity, but unless they are spamming the list that wouldn't be forbiden, nor do I, for one, think it should be. I think all that J. Favia is hoping to come out of this is something similar to what I outlined above, and that the MML members will be 1) a bit more open to original ideas and creativity and 2) a bit more careful in how arguments over what is and isn't "canon" are invoked. I don't think anyone is calling for new rules limiting debate. In fact, quite the oposite. Right now their is a (slight, but noitacable and significant) climate of "canon control". All that is being asked, if I have it right, is that some people reconsider that a bit, and open up more. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:58:09 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon In a message dated 1998-11-05 00:14:58 Eastern Standard Time, galwylin@airnet.net writes: > I think it would be great to let canon play a much smaller part on this > list. Its an exchange of ideas. Its not an design list. I don't like the > idea of things being labeled canon/non-canon here. This list isn't very > useful to people if its only to point out what is canon. For one reason, > no one on this list can say what is canon in Mystara except TSR. They > could bring Mystara back and say Alphatia never existed. That would become > canon. Will the list jump in that wagon or say they are the true holders > of canon? If they did that, they would reduce the concept of "canon" to sheer incoherence (if they haven't already) -- too much has been written about Alphatia for it to be dismissed so easily. It would certainly be possible to destroy Alphatia (come to think of it -- they did!) or to radically change a less developed region such as the Savage Coast (at the time of Bruce Heard's rewrite in the Princess Ark series, the "canonical" material that he contradicted was limited to 2-3 small modules). But I think we all recognize that some changes would go "too far" and would turn Mystara into something it was never meant to be. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:01:03 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Newbie Hi everyone... I'm new to the list, although I've been lurking via Jenn's account for awhile. Because of the overhelmingly good responses in this c/n-c debate, I thought that I should finally join. I think things might open up some to more creative ideas around here now (like Tim's myths). Anyway, I'll be commenting soon on the last few posts. Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:13:20 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon James pontificated: > All the above said, it must *also* be recognized that this is by and large >a list with very good, very constructive members. Their are few flame wars >here. And it also may come across that I (and others) are >overreacting/overstating our arguments vis a vi the "canon" problem, >because the "problem" is not an extreme one. It is, however, a tendancy. >And IMO it is better to get that problem out in the open and fully >discussed *before* it becomes an even more major impediment to open >dialogue and new ideas than it is now. It is not so much that it an extreme problem (YET), as it is that it is becoming more and more prevalent. I thought that by provoking a discussion over this that we could draw everyone out in the open. It appears, at least so far, that many of us have a lot more in common than we thought. Unfortunately, I fear that people are deliberately ignoring this thread. That's too bad...we have a saying, "if you don't vote, you have no right to complain." > Does that make any sense? Probably not. Oh well. You always make sense, James...You just take awhile doing it ;-)) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:34:16 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Andres opined: >3. For us, at this moment, canon would only have one aim: define a line of >usefulness in the majority of our campaigns and projects: the list is quite >plural and we are here on our own, so our efforts should keep a degree of >solidarity and group spirit (within our individual preferences and >creativities). An item should be considered canon if it could be used by a >good deal of Mystara fans and did not cause gross conflict with what other >people are doing. No, no, no, no, no...the list is here as a forum rfor ALL of our ideas. We do not need a "line of usefulness." Such guides are, by definition, restrictive of free expression. When I first joined the list, people worked on their own, developing their ideas and sharing them. I thought "gosh, what a big love-fest..." and joined up. Things happened, and I had to go, but then I came back this year and all of a sudden things were totally different. Cliques or groups dominated. People didn't so much talk about ideas as quote modules at each other. Those who deviated from this "collective mind" and actually posted their own stuff were at best politely ignored (you know who you are). So here I am, churning up this discussion with my thought on this matter. Things have to change, or Mystara will die. One cannot feed oneself on the feasts of the past. Everyone should feel free to throw in their two cents worth. I respect your right to post an alternate society if you respect my right to not like it. But I do not have the right to tell you not to post it because it deviates from what TSR wrote, or (heavens forbid) what a working group came up with (this is rank elitism, IMO). We know the setting; we know what is "official" and what is not. We know that we have the right to decide what we use and what we do not; we are all adults here. That said, open the floor to everyone. If we MUST define "canon" versus "non-canon," fine, I'll do so right here--TSR's stuff is canon. Everything else (INCLUDING net almanacs, working group stuff, or anything else that has come from anyone else's mouth, including reconciliations of the timelines or taking up where they left off) is non-canon. There. Fine. Now can we stop hearing about the sanctity of canon and just enjoy our ideas? "One can resist the invasion of armies; one cannot resist the invasion of ideas." (Victor Hugo) >MML does NOT spin around our individual campaings (where Thyatis might >hold dominion over all the KW, magic have perished or the WotI never have >taken place), but about a shared effort to make this brave old (and >orphaned) world alive and growing; so, the mainstream activies on the list >should have a common utility. Wrong. The MML is the place for all of us to share our own individual ideas. We do not need to have a consensus, or a slew of compromise material. Too many folks are too busy trying to create their own design tem, and to take up where TSR left off (TSR II: The Sequel). Stop. We're here together. Everyone's ideas are legitimate. Everything is valid. Everything is not valid. There is no new canon. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:35:47 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Welcome Hi all, Just taking time from the big debate to extend the official MML welcome to Ariel. (Okay, so it was no big shock to me that he was joining...he's my husband...;-) Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:33:17 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Newbie > > I'm new to the list, although I've been lurking via > Jenn's account for awhile. > Well, let me extend this hand in welcome. *hands you a detached hand* (sorry, old Finneous Finger's joke, couldn't resist it. . . .*) *actually, the cognosenti** would know that I didn't presisely use that properly; in the script Fin was dangling from a cliff and asked if someone could give him a hand. So someone did. But, anyhow. . . . **Using "cognosenti" to mean "old" in this instance. (sorry, it is late at night, and I'm slapphappy from lack of sleep). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:45:21 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Glen wrote: >But let's not waste time with a debate on what we're allowed to consider >canon. Here's a new definition of Canon: > >Anything I want to put in my campaign because I'm the DM and what I say goes. > >How's that? That's fine. No one was challenging that. But I strongly disagree that this debate is a waste of time. It is about freedom of expression. To use your analogy, we are all DMs here; each of us is right in his or her own way. There are others who want for us to speak only of our common grounds. As there is not much of that, we will either not talk at all, or we will talk only of those few things on which we can compromise. I find that highly disturbing. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:51:17 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments >Now, here's the big ironic end to this post . . . That said, what exactly do >you mean by "We'll never get anywhere in this matter . . ." Is there somewhere >we can get? What are you looking for by bringing this up? Do you want posters >to be more polite? More prolific? More vocal in their praise/damnation? Do you >want to join the Net Almanac team or have them hunted down like rabid dogs? Do >you want there to be a published MML guideline for posting? Should we ban the >C-word? Yes, absolutely, we can get somewhere. I thought that it was evident from James's and my posts that we want a broader acceptance for all ideas, a shared forum rather than one governed (at least in spirit) by an unspoken elitism. We want (or at least I do) more originality, more comments, more discussion of ideas OUTSIDE of private working groups. I would also like non "net canon," as there is, IMHO, no such thing. No, no guidelines--we need less strictures, not more. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia, Patron Saint of Heretics :) wrote: > guidelines--we need less strictures, not more. Maybe the only stricture we need is not define our lives around canon. Sure Canon is nice, but it isn't necessary to completely trash anything new, we can gleefully disagree, and/or point out logic errors, and typos and make suggestions, but nothing new should be considered junk. (And I know everyone is guilty of this at some point, especially myself.) Ethan - -- Ethan Deneault - PH/MU '99 www.wpi.edu/~eand - wpi.flame Quote Archive. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:04:44 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Ethan, recently saved from the maw of the canonical abyss ;-), pondered: >Sure Canon is nice, but it isn't necessary to completely trash anything >new, we can gleefully disagree, and/or point out logic errors, and typos >and make suggestions, but nothing new should be considered junk. (And I >know everyone is guilty of this at some point, especially myself.) Well, no one's casting stones...But I'm really glad to see that we seem to agree on this. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:23:32 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >From: BoBoII@aol.com >Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:47:23 EST >In a message dated 98-11-04 07:01:38 EST, you write: > ><< well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? >> >Sancted = Sacred? >Was that what you were going for? No i mean saint ... it was the same as in French :o) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 02:02:55 PST From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Dear Jennifer, dear other It's always pleasure to see how debate can spark >From: "Jennifer Favia" >Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:13:27 PST >I am very glad that we are finally discussing this >canon/non-canon thing in a civilized way. But I think >it is apparent that there are Mystarans who have not >commented on this (unless I am wrong and there are only >five of us left on the list). >To those folks: > I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, >but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in >this matter if we do not hear from at least most of >everyone. I think we all value the democratic spirit of >the MML (*umm...Hi, King LeRoy!*)...in which case this >debate is critical. So let your voice be heard. IMO : discussing around "canon/non-canon" is somehow difficult and i don't feel it usefull : on the one hand, we have many materials left five years ago by TSR that are not always compatible, and all that have been written by many Mystara-lovers that make (in my term) the net-canon(To these, i thank a lot for their work). On the other hand, we have many players, many DM ( ... well only one DM but many master Marco ;o) ) that can't always follow the true line drawn by this canon. I find very helpfull to find things that are tied with the original canon, but i can't use all of it for two reasons : first my campain isn't adapted to it, and second i dislike some stuffs (even among original). You'd perhaps like to burn me ... I also suspect that the "net-canon" is not same from one to one ... Well sorry to find this discution pointless ... Pointless is not the good word : i mean there's no clue IMO to this problem ... Perhaps someone very tied to Mystara should draw the truce from the other stuff, and everybody might then accept his choice ... This person might be elected by MML of course (sorry to King ...) . Have fun and a good day, PS : It's quite long and full of English mistakes ... thanks to the courageous that read up to this ;o) Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT ā mag@mel.teamlog.fr ou chasnans@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:55:17 +0100 From: Kristian Kramer Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Welcome So you knew about it all along... ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Favia [SMTP:valerya@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:36 AM > To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] - Welcome > > Hi all, > > Just taking time from the big debate to extend the official MML welcome > to Ariel. > > (Okay, so it was no big shock to me that he was joining...he's my > husband...;-) > > Jenn > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ************************************************************************** > * > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the > line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:31:28 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Your points are fine when you are talking about religious, noncopyrighted text. But here we are discussing a property owned by TSR. Canon is canon. It gives us a common ground. It is wrong to say, "You can't post that, it denies canon." But it is also wrong to say, "You can't post that, it denies "net-canon."" Beyond that, there really is no debate. Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: > Dear Mystarans, > > I have tried to refrain from this debate, not for a lack of interest, but > due to the fact of "canonicity" being an important topic in my PhD studies > (Bible and other sacred stuff), so, I did not "defile" a hobby like Mystara > with that brainshaking. Nevertheless, answering to Jenn's call, I would > like to make a couple of points about canonicity should be for a hobby (at > University, things become more thorny ;-): > > 1. The core of the canon idea is imposed by the powers who take care of the > Text. In our case, the Text were Mystara products, first in the hands of > TSR, now, mainly, in the hands of the people writing at collaborating > around the MML (Almanacs, atlases, simple ideas...) > > 2. Canon must then be ratificated by the community: EG, if everybody found > a supplement, adventure or item particularly undesirable or conflictive > with the majority of accepted elements, it would be rejected, no matter its > TSR label (I think that is the case of a product like The Book of Wondrous > Inventions... sorry if somebody around there defends it... > > 3. For us, at this moment, canon would only have one aim: define a line of > usefulness in the majority of our campaigns and projects: the list is quite > plural and we are here on our own, so our efforts should keep a degree of > solidarity and group spirit (within our individual preferences and > creativities). An item should be considered canon if it could be used by a > good deal of Mystara fans and did not cause gross conflict with what other > people are doing. > > For instance, an essay on history which develops Mystaran future history > making it spin solely around a country, or which nullifies the concept of > the Immortals or which suppresses a character class or causes a great > unbalance in what other people could find enjoyable, should be definitely > treated as non-canon (think of an idea of having the NoS recently > discovered by the shadowelves drain ALL magic. That would make enjoyment of > Mystara quite difficult for a lot of people...) > > 4. Non-canonicity does not mean censorship, of course. Perhaps somebody > around there finds the idea of somebody else's "alternative Mystara" quite > appealing and perhaps some non-canonic items show interesting parts which > can be promptly adapted. We should only have clearly in our minds that the > MML does NOT spin around our individual campaings (where Thyatis might > hold dominion over all the KW, magic have perished or the WotI never have > taken place), but about a shared effort to make this brave old (and > orphaned) world alive and growing; so, the mainstream activies on the list > should have a common utility. > > I have talked about extreme cases, so grayer ones should be left open. I, > for instance, love James' Thyatis info: it is quite "alternative" to DotE, > but does not me feel any gross conflict against Mystaran history or > present-day politics. Others won't like it and ignore it... > > To put it short, canon is a concept which spins around the acceptance and > consecration of already-written texts; in the case of Mystara, where > -hopefully- the flow of contributions is continuing indefinitely, the only > canon rule is the interest and usefulness of the item to us members. > > Andrés > (who got a headache after reading Bloom's "The Western Canon") > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:32:44 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Not another canon barrage! Right on both counts! Glen Sprigg wrote: > Okay, I'll say something about this whole Canon thing. > > Canon is anything published by TSR, and anything else isn't. > Anything I want to put in my campaign because I'm the DM and what I say goes. > > How's that? > > Glen > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:44:03 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia wrote: > ... we want a > broader acceptance for all ideas, a shared forum rather > than one governed (at least in spirit) by an unspoken > elitism. We want (or at least I do) more originality, > more comments, more discussion of ideas OUTSIDE of > private working groups. I would also like non "net > canon," as there is, IMHO, no such thing. No, no > guidelines--we need less strictures, not more. Easy to agree to all of that. I think at this point, whenever someone tears something down for a reason you disagree with, you should speak up and be specific. I don't really see that there is any "debate" here. You points are all logical ones...but a tad general. I would like the days of many many submissions being tossed out...so let's see some ideas generated! What are people doing currently in their campaigns, past or presetn? Anything new or innovative? Anybody come up with any nifty magic items or plot twists lately? I had a couple ideas recently, mainly based on posts by others...for instance, Fabrizio posted that street in Darokin... I thought it would be cool if we started tossing out neighborhoods and whatnot. Just detailed streets or even whole cities... I'd love to see that! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #697 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 698 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright [MYSTARA] - Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:53:33 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jennifer Favia wrote: > > To those folks: > I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, > but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in > this matter if we do not hear from at least most of > everyone. I think we all value the democratic spirit of > the MML (*umm...Hi, King LeRoy!*)...in which case this > debate is critical. So let your voice be heard. > Ok. What is "canon"? Between the many answers given in previous posts in this thread, I prefer this one 1) TSR works which are not extremely unpopular. 2) anything else that is not contradictory with 1) and is considered canon by most people. This does not mean that "alternate" or "non-canon" works are not worth of attenction, or that people should limit themselves to "canonic" posts. On the other hand, I do not believe that people who try to produce "canonic" works are automatically limiting their possibility or, worse, that they lack originality. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:11:56 +0200 (EET) From: Anias Pasi Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > To those folks: > I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, > but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in > this matter if we do not hear from at least most of > everyone. Out of respect for a straight plea: Personally i dont much care of this kind of discussion, where peoples try to discuss how to discuss. I rather vote with my doings. I have (intentionally) never trashed enybodys ideas because of canonity or the lack of. I use what I like and thats it. I understand that some peoples would be offended (I have) by some others cryes of "this is not canon!", but i'm old enough to have learned to ]Ignore[. Also out of ]respect[ to those who have the more Scholarly perspective instead of the more fun-loving perspective, I try in my postings to write things so, that a ]Carefull[ reader might see, which of the stuff is official, and which is my own. Of course I dont allways succeed. Please, let all of us not to be so defensive (nor agressive) all the time. be polite. Ignore, or at least count to 10. Pasi Some other thoughs on the subject, as I'm using the space anyway. Then I wont have to reply, when these things come up (the next time). Please Ignore, if You feel offended: 1. I dont own but a couple of modules. Is playing with selfmade modules uncanon? 2. Different peoples include different things to Canon anyway. 3. Canon is too contradictory to itself anyway to really mean anything 4. The same peoples who complain on others should learn their netiquette too. 5. Saying Wellcome to every new people joining the list on the LIST is even more annoying than this canon discussion. Use MAIL. 6. Peoples should really include their mailadresses to their posting, so that it would be easier to fla..., er give them feedback easyer. 7. There IS NOT 1000 36th level mages in Alphatia. :) 8. The World is NOT hollow. 9. Black knight of Mystara (I think thats the name of the book) is published by TSR but I wouldt call it Canon. 10. The characters are not defined by the stats but vice versa. 11. The French should never have bombed Muroro. 12. The world has gone in a direction I really dont like... 13. The Tamagochi toy is really a plot against Cristianity, as it teaches reincarnation for kids. 14. The most important quoestion is, wether we get to roll a new character when we die, or are we really out of the game. 15. It would be nice to meet the finish (and one russian) members of the list some time. 16. The ADD Glantribox has really spoiled Morphail. Morphail is not a monster. 17. My own campaign is at this time Mage, played in glantri, so... Well anyway, thats my 36 cents worth. Pasi - -- X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 8-10 G 62 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:50:37 -0500 From: Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Anias, you had me rolling on the floor and clutching for breath! Anias Pasi wrote: > ...Then I wont have to reply, when these things come up (the next time). > Please Ignore, if You feel offended: > 1. I dont own but a couple of modules. Is playing with selfmade modules > uncanon? You bring up a good point in a rather subtle way. The answer is, the question is unimportant unless you are trying to force your noncanon modules on us as fact...or if, others are trying to degrade your noncanon modules because they disagree with canon... > 5. Saying Wellcome to every new people joining the list on the LIST is > even more annoying than this canon discussion. Use MAIL. I don't really agree here. I think it helps give new people the general atmosphere feeling here when welcomes are issued. I think they are very important, show that we are a "net family", and make people feel...um...welcome. But, to perhaps mollify your POV, perhaps if people put "Welcome" in the subject line, you would not have so much difficulty with it... > 7. There IS NOT 1000 36th level mages in Alphatia. :) Not only are there 1000 36th level mages in Alphata, but Alphatia never sunk! Says so in book 2 of "The World According to His Imperial Majesty, JDaly" > 8. The World is NOT hollow. I used to feel that way too. When the HW supplement first came out, I was mad they decided to go that route instead of detailing more of the surface world... > 9. Black knight of Mystara (I think thats the name of the book) is > published by TSR but I wouldt call it Canon. Depends. Is it the large print edition? If so, I have found that in fact you can roll it into a cylinder and fire a lead ball through it. Oh wait, nevermind... > 11. The French should never have bombed Muroro. Oh I don't know...it kind of says something when Greenpeace is the major detractor... "Don't you go testing those bombs! Say, wait, ya think we could get ahold of one of those? There's this tanker..." > 12. The world has gone in a direction I really dont like... I agree! Wait a minute...Mystara or Earth? > 13. The Tamagochi toy is really a plot against Cristianity, as it teaches > reincarnation for kids. Absolutely! I was going to bring up this point first! Darn... > 14. The most important quoestion is, wether we get to roll a new character > when we die, or are we really out of the game. Or do we continue with the same character just in a higher form... > 15. It would be nice to meet the finish (and one russian) members of the > list some time. Definitely! Let's ALL get together for Gen Con next year! Not just the Finnish list members either... > 16. The ADD Glantribox has really spoiled Morphail. Morphail is not a > monster. Well...yes and no... > 17. My own campaign is at this time Mage, played in glantri, so... I am going to start an all-mage campaign at some point...balancing the all-Norwold, all-Thyatian, all-Alfhiem games I've been running... PS, watch out for the black helicopters! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:08:33 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast Birthright Hello all, The Savage Coast Birthright PBEM combines the Savage Coast campaign with Birthright rules. At the moment we really need some players for the City-States region. If you are interested in participating, contact the City-States DM Marc Remaley at skawpya@mail.techline.com or visit the PBEM homepage at www.image.dk/~hiveking ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:30:18 PST From: "Da Mongul" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Canon Ok. I've sat quietly through this canon debate and the one last year. I don't think it really matters what is considered "canonical" from one campaign to another. We're not drones that have to work everything the same way. We're differing people that have differing personalities and therefore differing ideas of "canon". Just my 2 cp. Da Mongul Ruling God of the Sextelas - Amerscius ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:43:29 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Great myth, Tim. One of the most creative (and entertaining) things I've read on the list in a while. Being a humanoid lover, I liked how you brought them in, especially the way things didn't turn out the way Ilneval expected. BTW, are you specifically saying that humans were put on Mystara to be the "peacekeepers?" If so, I find that very interesting, since that would mean that humans were not originally intended to be here. :) Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:54:22 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:22:06 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments JDaly wrote: >I would like the days of many many submissions being tossed out...so let's see >some ideas generated! Yes! This is actually the point of the whole thing. (The Great Mystaran Revival?) I would love to see some new ideas; I am, in fact, working on some myself. And I think the Tim's Creation Myth was a great start. I hope this trend continues...plus, with alot of comments on people's work, to provide encouragement for others to post as well. Let's get the ball rolling! >What are people doing currently in their campaigns, past or presetn? Anything >new or innovative? > Well, you asked... We had a big Vyalian independence movement a while back. Big twist--the Alfheim are the "bad guys" and the SE are the good guys. A lot of the breakup of the larger states (Thyatis Glantri). Maybe Ariel can think of some more... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:25:37 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments At Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:13:27 PST "Jennifer Favia" wrote: >To those folks: > I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, >but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in >this matter if we do not hear from at least most of >everyone. I think we all value the democratic spirit of >the MML (*umm...Hi, King LeRoy!*)...in which case this >debate is critical. So let your voice be heard. Since you asked /and/ I have some time (amazing!) to make a comment I will. I agree with much of what Jenn & James have collectively said. I think that "canon" (If we are going to use the term -- I don't know if anyone else remembers, but back during the "uncivilised" debate about it, Leroy stepped in and banned the use of the terms "canon" and "net-cannon" from the list -- but I digress.) "canon" can only be those items which TSR published. This gives us a starting point to work from when discussing other developments. All other items are derivatives and alternatives. Neither is better or worse. Labeling some things as "new-canon" or "net-canon" is unfair and could tend to stifle other's creativity in those areas. After all, what is used is ultimately up to the individal DM, so the more options we all have to pick and choose from, the better. Chances are, we're not going to use it "as is" any way. Smart authors of derivatives and alternatives always indicate the source material they have started with and/or deviated from, even when (in fact especially when) those sources are other derivatives, such as the net-almanacs. A wonderful example of this sort of thing is the Hollow Moon Gazetter that was created by "Rotipher" and posted to the MMB a while back (and, I believe, posted to Shawn Stanley's web site). She was always very clear to point out where the basis of the many ideas came from and where her work deviated from what you would otherwise expect (eg: She significantly revamped the cause of the destruction of Blackmoor) My campaign is so incredibly non-canon that anything goes! I want to see what others have done within all times and places of Mystara so that I can tear it apart and re-make it in my own image of Mystara. ;-) In fact, my campaign is still in the 1000AC era, so I'm even more interested in things developed for that time, rather than for the "distant future" of 1015 or later. As James pointed out, some people use the "it's non-cannon" comment when they really mean "I don't like it" or "I wouldn't use it". So, if you don't like it, don't comment -- remember what Thumper the Rabbit's mother said in _Bambi_: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". People who write alternatives /usually/ know when parts of them are "non-canon", so you probably don't need to tell them. However, sometimes people mean to write a derivative and make a contradiction by mistake. If you think that the person was trying to make their derivative "fit within canon" but have made an error, you can always ask if that is so, but do it nicely: "Your post about 'topic A' is very well writen and interesting. However, I was wondering if you had intended to change the information about 'point a' from what is given in 'source b'?" The trick here goes back to my usual "Mom" Soapbox -- Make and effort to talk nice to everyone and assume that everyone intends to talk nice to you. Well, that's my two passem worth on the topic. Hope everyone on the list is doing well. My son Nathan is great! Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:23:50 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. The below is an overview of Thyatis the City that I wrote up for my website. Not everything in the overview is exactly according to "canon" (see that recient debate), but it is broadly compatable with it. Note also that if I had my druthers I'd place The City on an island in the midst of the Mesonian River, similar to Manhattan in the Hudson, but I'm retaining the "canon" map, but with one change: amend the scale of the map from 1"= 1,000 feet to 1"= 1,000 yards. You can do this for the Sundsvall map, too, and I'd in fact recomend it (N.B. that this "alteration" can almost be considered "canon", in the sense that Bruce Heard thought it was a good idea for these megalopoli). All commentary, criticism (polite, constructive; I actually don't think I need to tell members of this list that, but for some reason I'm driven to do so), etc. is welcomed. Description below: __________________________ Thyatis the City Overview of the City Thyatis the City is located on the south east corner of the continent of Brun, at the mouth of the Mesonian River. It sits roughly at the midpoint of "Vanya's Girdle," the great sound that separates the penninsula of Hattias from the rest of Thyatis. The city's administrative disctrict includes the surrounding lands (everything within aproximately 8 miles of the city falls under the authority of the Eparch). The walled area of the city consists of a rough circle aproximately four miles in diameter, plus a small quarter (known as Syclae) just across the river. Thyatis the City stands not only at the geographic heart of Thyatis, but it is its cultural and governmental heart as well. The City is the greatest megalopolis not only in Thyatis, but in all of Mystara. With a population greater than all of Karameikos, and all indeed even of the continent of Bellissaria, the City by itself is an unmatched wonder. Some Alphatian cities rivaled once Thyatis the City in size, but none were its equal as a cosmopolitan metropolis. Where the cities of that Empire existed as centers of consumption (rather than production) for Alphatia's exclusive spellcasting aristocracy, Thyatis the City is a center of industry and trade, the greatest market for all the peoples of the Known World. A large cove or bay (the Golden Harbor of Thyatis) sits at the center of the city, and the Girdle is the most convenient passage for ships transiting between the southern coastline and the eastern coastlines of Brun, and beyond to the Isle of Dawn and elsewhere. Even the modest tarrif levied on ships using this passage does not detract its use, and no merchant with an eye on profit can afford to pass the City without stoping to buy and sell its great emporums. It was once said that two thirds of the Known World's wealth resides in Thyatis the City, with the rest being scattered outside it. While surely an exageration, one is sometimes tempted to believe it as true when you first see the City as you approach it from the sea, the gilded domes of its temples rising above the horizon, the many large marble palaces doting its hillsides, and its great collonaded avenues teaming with a bustling, polyglot populace. But trade is far from the only reason for the City's greatness, for it is also said that just as Thyatis surpasses all in wealth, it surpasses all in vice as well. It is the center of the Imperial Government, the base for the Tagmatic Guard units, and the prefered home of most of Thyatis' dynastic houses. This insures that the city boils with intrigues of all sorts at all times. The schemes of organizations such as the Veiled Society, or even the machinations of Darokin's merchantile houses all seem petty and amaturish compared to the cabals that are hatched within the City. Only the plots of the Glantrian Princes can be said to truely rival thouse of Thyatis. And, as you approach the city from a distance, your eye catching on its numerous wonders, it is easy for the tenements of the poor to pass unoticed in the haze that covers them. This haze lends the city a dream-like quality from a distance, but is formed of the smoke fires that cloud the slums, and the reaking odors of the city's industries (tanning, dye works, slaughterhouses, and the like). But Thyatis the City is not a place where beauty hides only vices, for it is a place of virtue as well. In addition to being a center of trade and government, it is the foremost center of theology in all Mystara. Temples of all the virtuous Immortals can be found here, and the monastic communities of Thyatis are dedicated to the people's welfare. The Thyatian government is one of the few enlightened enough to support public charatable foundations, including orphanages, hospices, and a free dole of bread that insures a minimal diet to all, at public expense. While Thyatis still retains slavery, the current Emperor, the son of a slave himself, has taken steps to eliminate abuses, and sentiment for outlawing the practice is growing. In addition, unlike in places like Alphatia, where slaves have no legal protections, a set of laws codify the status of slaves, insuring they are not maltreated. In fact, most Thyatian slaves are arguably better off than the pesants and serfs of other nations. In fact, almost all Thyatian slaves serve household functions. The only exceptions are thouse consigned to the mines as a punishment for crimes. The institution of plantation slavery, common in Alphatia, is unknown in Thyatis, where free farmholds are the rule. The life of a slave remains a harsh and degraded existance, however, which should not be romanticized. But neither should one romanticize the social conditions that members of the Darokinian copper class, or the Alphatian servile class, live under. Thyatis the City is divided into 14 districts (alternatively called regions or wards. The city-state mentality has great force in Thyatis, and citizenship within the Empire is deliberately confused with citizenship in the city itself. The Thyatian Imperial Senate is one of the governing bodies of the City, and its primary assembly. The Emperor reigns over the City, as he reigns over the Empire. The most important civic official, the Eparch, has authority not only within the City itself, but throughout the Empire as a whole, especially in regard to trade regulation. Dispite the dominance of these Imperial institutions, the city itself has a thriving political culture. The Districts are combined into four Demes, which elect Demarchs responsible for various aspects of civic administration, including maintaining the city's militia defences. Each of the Districts has its own distinct character, which should not be surprising as by themselves they would be considered modest cities. If at times it seems that Thyatis the City is a place of contradictions, then this is true: it is a city where great wealth exists beside poverty, and where vices of the most debauched kind exist behind the same walls that guard institutions of unmatched virtue. It is a city of public amenities and civic spirit, but also a city of individuals who pursue their own disparate goals. In other words, as diverse a place as can be found in all Mystara. And, if this seems incongruous to you, it should be remembered that within the great walls of the City more people live than reside in many nations. _____________________ antelog: the above can be found in all its HTML glory at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/City.html Note that eventually I plan on adding separate descriptions of the following: City Life in the 11th Century. City Government and Politics. City Defences and Policing. Industry and Trade in the City. individual descriptions of all 14 Regions (or Districts). Exurbs of the City. Prominent People of the City. Ideas that would fit into any of the above are welcomed. Note, though, that since the webpage version is my version, I do get to say what is included in that. However, don't let that discourage you from contributing related stuff: I mean, just because I'm narrow minded, that doesn't mean someone else won't find your contribution interesting and useful. 8-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:28:34 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Glen wondered: >What would be found in a wizard's tower? >Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? I think that there should be an area where he (or she) has stashed a bunch of old experiments...Say a room full of racks of potions and vials. The party thinks they've hit the jackpot!...only to find out later (in the worst of way, of course;-) that there's something a *little* bit wrong with each one... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:33:41 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Nice work Tim! I miss good old Thanatos though. ;) Actually it would be cool to have a few of these creation myths for each religion, preferably contradicting eachother so that people can argue about which one is true and have religious wars and that kind of stuff. Violence is good for you.... ;) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:42:44 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... >What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the >party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found >there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and >library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. >But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? > >Glen Hmmm.... Level two: Storage room (dry goods, wine, papers (blank), crates, etc.) Apprentice quarters (space for 3-6 wizard wannabes) Level Three: Training Room (practice lab for apprentices, a small library of low level spellbooks (no more than 3rd level), possibly a couple of golem guards are stationed here One or two empty rooms (for future use) Level Four: Wizard's library (a biiig room, easily over 1,000 tomes - composed of some spellbooks, blank spellbooks, a couple of scrolls, a crystal ball, and reference materials, you know, things like "Notes on Draconic Physiology", etc.) More golems here, too, maybe a couple of unseen servants whistling around Whatever's left over could be rooms for higher-level apprentices, a guest room for a visiting wizard, and so on. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:54:05 -0800 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... On Friday, November 06, 1998 9:54 AM, Glen Sprigg [SMTP:borealis@cois.on.ca] wrote: > What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take > the party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad > towers found there? The bottom level might be for his servants and > guards. His lab and library would be higher up, of course, as would > his own sleeping chambers. But what's in between? Let's say the > tower has five levels. What would you find on levels two, three and > four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? I usually devote different floors to different purposes. For example: BASEMENT: storage, secret entrace to dungeon FLOOR 5 -- SECRET mage's private workshop & library (accessible only via a secret door from 4th floor) FLOOR 4 -- WIZARD mage's private chambers (possibly guarded by a golem and magical traps) FLOOR 3 -- APPRENTICES large workshop apprentices' rooms (cramped and spartan) FLOOR 2 -- HOUSEHOLD kitchen generous pantry guestroom linen closet & cleaning supplies FLOOR 1 -- RECEPTION receiving room with comfortable chairs etc. room for guards (or henchman, or guests) BASEMENT storage entrance to dungeons (if any) Other ideas: secure summoning room prison & torture cells treasure vault for gold & gems secret hiding place for spellbooks and magic items vats for growing clones and artificial life (ala Dying Earth) stables for horses or more exotic beasts observatory for astronomical work portals to other dimensions private shrine to favorite god extra libraries great hall for entertaining/impressing guests room for child, parent, sibling, or elderly relative The whole is of course connected by stairs; sometimes I'll add an extra 'secret' set of stairs for the mage's private use if its a big tower. A dumbwaiter or permanent Invisible Servant may be useful for moving food and supplies between floors. The tower contains one or two apprentices who do some lab work, but also do all the cleaning and cooking. There is a room for a couple of men at arms, and also a guestroom for visiting friends. If the mage has henchmen or a spouse that may change things as well. If the mage likes to experiment on beasts, I'll usually put in dungeon levels beneath the tower. The tower itself is a bit cramped for large cages, and it wouldn't be fun trying to get a wyvern up the spiral staircase... My towers are usually fairly large, say at least 30' diameter, so each level has several rooms. I try to design it like a real house, with hallways and stairs so you can get from one place to another without having to go through rooms in between. You can have lots of fun with the details. The tower needs either magic chamberpots or a garderobe (which the apprentices keep clean). And unless it is magically heated, don't forget that EVERY room needs a fireplace and chimney (the apprentices presumably chop wood and tend the fires). The kitchen needs an oven and maybe a magical refrigerator. Certain rooms may only be accessible via secret doors. I have created towers which have no stairs, and instead use magic doorways leading from one floor to the next (giving the whole tower a 'linear' layout). The tower may be larger inside than outside. The personality of the wizard should show through; one may be very spartan with lots of libraries and clutter, while another has luxurious rooms with servants and guests. Any mage worth his salt will also give thought to defense and escape, if hostile persons break into the tower and start working their way upwards. Feather Fall or Fly can be used to jump from the top. I had a mage once with a magic portal to another plane located at the top (where he stored his treasures and used as an escape route). A secondary 'secret' staircase could allow him to slip unnoticed into the dungeons, or he could Feather Fall down a dumbwaiter shaft. And of course the tower will have all sorts of fiendish traps and alarms set up. Also give thought to magical means of attack; a tower should be resistant to such obvious attacks as Stone Shape and Passwall... probably the entire structure is a magic item which is largely invulnerable to spells. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #698 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 699 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments: Orthodoxy Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - The City RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - Call of the Wild Canon Orthodox Policing Corps. Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB Re: [MYSTARA] - "Orthodoxy" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:11:36 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > > Hope everyone on the list is doing well. My son Nathan is great! > That's good to hear 8-). But now I'm going to toss a (small) Apple of Discord at you re. the below: > > As James pointed out, some people use the "it's non-cannon" comment when > they really mean "I don't like it" or "I wouldn't use it". So, if you > don't like it, don't comment -- remember what Thumper the Rabbit's mother > said in _Bambi_: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at > all". > That might be carrying things too far. I see no reason to banish disagreement, constructive criticism, and the like (but then I *would* say that: I *like* handing out Apples of Discord!) I think the list as a whole benifits from that, whereas if everyone felt the need to respond only with fauning sycophancy to every idea, that would stiffle creativity *almost* (but not quite) as much as a insistance upon canonical orthodoxy does. Why? Well, two main reasons: 1) constructive criticism is useful for improving an idea. Even in instances where the person who came up with that idea keeps their version of it "pure", others might find the critique/commentary helps make the idea more useful for their campaigns. Thus the proposal becomes more broadly useful, as people get input that they otherwise may not have thought of or considered. 2) I for one have to admit that I'm *not* very creative in the sense of originality at all. However, I (partially, incompletely) make up for that by being good at extrapolating from, splicing, and synergizing ideas. I think many people are somewhat like that, but IMO even the most creative people benifit when they get comments from other folks, because even they can benifit from exposure to perspectives that they otherwise wouldn't have considered (in fact, people with a gift for original thinking probably benifit the most, because they find it easier to think in new terms anyhow). I definately think input, even contrarian input, is a good thing <----- and I find it much easier to say that in the abstract, now, than in specific instances. I tend to respond like Calvin (with Calvin-like rants) in specific instances. "you know how people are. They only recognize greatness when some authority confers it." -- Calvin, disgustedly, to Hobbes. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:15:46 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... > > Glen wondered: > > >What would be found in a wizard's tower? > > >Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you > >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? > Apprentices? What else? > Something that often isn't considered is a greenhouse (and, below the tower, a fungarium); some place where "Da Wizad" grows herbs, fungi, and other useful flora. Perhaps a room where the mage in question makes his own parchment, or a glass blowing furnice where "da Wizad" can make his own alchemical equipment (beakers, vials, tubes of all kinds, etc.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:54:40 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia wrote: > > Yes, absolutely, we can get somewhere. I thought that > it was evident from James's and my posts that we want a > broader acceptance for all ideas, a shared forum rather > than one governed (at least in spirit) by an unspoken > elitism. We want (or at least I do) more originality, > more comments, more discussion of ideas OUTSIDE of > private working groups. I would also like non "net > canon," as there is, IMHO, no such thing. No, no > guidelines--we need less strictures, not more. I think I agree with Jenn here. I don't believe there is a conscious effort to only discuss canon here but those of us who are taking Mystara into different directions are feeling pushed out. Like I said, I don't think its being done on purpose. But I've gotten the feeling that alternate or non-canon works aren't very welcomed and if we must post them to at least label them as such up front so they won't confuse people who want to only discuss the "good" stuff. Now, when I first joined the list, adhering to canon was all important to me. But in those days, I felt that Mystara was going to be returned to publication then. Now, I don't feel like it is. There's been too many chances where its not looked at as feasible for TSR. The recent fast-play rules they did and the adventures they have planned show no hint of making Mystara even an introduction setting which is what TSR has seemed to always think of it. Since I don't see Mystara as returning, I have told myself that if only what I do in my campaign is going to be the life of the setting, why not do it how I would like. Canon becomes a stepping stone. Its the backbone of what I do that can change or grow differently than the 'official' version. But I'm not a game designer. I need help and this list would seem to be the place to throw ideas out and see how they work. But if they're not wanted then I have to ask if this list beneficial to me. I think that's what Jenn is really asking. Are we on the wrong list for this type of idea? - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:08:30 -0800 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... On Friday, November 06, 1998 11:16 AM, James Ruhland [SMTP:jruhlconob@sprynet.com] wrote: > > > Glen wondered: > > > > >What would be found in a wizard's tower? > > > > >Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you > > >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? > > Apprentices? What else? > > > Something that often isn't considered is a greenhouse (and, below the > tower, a fungarium); some place where "Da Wizad" grows herbs, fungi, > and other useful flora. Cool idea. A wizard who likes plants might not only have a greenhouse and underground "fungarium" but an extensive garden stocked with all sorts of magical and dangerous stuff. A garden would keep the apprentices busy too... :-) One interesting adventure I played in featured an abandoned wizard's tower surrounded by a grassy yard enclosed by a thorny hedge. Outside the hedge were fields and orchards tended by a zombie gardener (who freaked us out pretty badly, but took no notice of us). Once we got through the hedge, we found a living tree inside which chased us around the yard; two characters had to keep it distracted (essentially playing "tag" and trying not to get hit by flailing limbs) while the others tried to figure out how to get inside the tower... we never managed to hurt it as far as I could tell. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:17:54 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jenni took time out from being a mom to write: >Neither is better or >worse. Labeling some things as "new-canon" or "net-canon" is unfair and >could tend to stifle other's creativity in those areas. After all, what is >used is ultimately up to the individal DM, so the more options we all have >to pick and choose from, the better. Chances are, we're not going to use >it "as is" any way. All the more reason for us to throw our ideas on here, regardless of how much they deviate! When I first started out in Mystara, people's ideas on the list and on their web pages really helped me to decide what I wanted my own individual campaign to be. No one will be able to do that again if we squelch ideas that are a less than "orthodox." So yes (since I'd better get to the point;-), I do agree with you. The more options the better. > Hope everyone on the list is doing well. My son Nathan is great! Great!! :-)) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:24:16 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Once again, Tim cut to the chase of my ramblings by saying: I've gotten the feeling that >alternate or non-canon works aren't very welcomed and if we must post >them to at least label them as such up front so they won't confuse >people who want to only discuss the "good" stuff. I have gotten that impression as well, loud and clear. Funny thing is this--those folks are not even taking part in this discussion, I don't think. Are we preaching to the choir? >Since I don't see Mystara as returning Neither do I, at all. Even if they did bring it back, they've lost my business--I've done my own thing in their absence. What am I supposed to do, take my campaign back in time? >But I'm not a game designer. I need help and this >list would seem to be the place to throw ideas out and see how they >work. But if they're not wanted then I have to ask if this list >beneficial to me. I think that's what Jenn is really asking. *EXACTLY!!* >Are we on the wrong list for this type of idea? If it is, then I've been wasting my breath. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:25:25 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Ariel Guerra wrote: > > Great myth, Tim. One of the most creative (and > entertaining) things I've read on the list in a while. > Being a humanoid lover, I liked how you brought them > in, especially the way things didn't turn out the way > Ilneval expected. BTW, are you specifically saying that > humans were put on Mystara to be the "peacekeepers?" If > so, I find that very interesting, since that would mean > that humans were not originally intended to be here. :) Thanks for the words! :) I didn't imagine humans as peacekeepers but I have to say that I am thrilled that its given you that. I set out to create a myth that was usable in ways I didn't imagine. It seems I've done that in a couple of cases. I wanted people to be able to use it, change it, or whatever they would like to do with it. As a myth, I pictured it containing truth but what truths I wanted the reader to decide. Just from some of the questions about it has given me new ideas of what truth is in it for myself. This has been a very good experience for me. I can already picture some circles believing humans weren't meant to be and what kind of human religion that would form into. Thanks again :) - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:30:14 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia wrote: > > JDaly wrote: > > >I would like the days of many many submissions being > tossed out...so let's see > >some ideas generated! > > Yes! This is actually the point of the whole thing. > (The Great Mystaran Revival?) I would love to see some > new ideas; I am, in fact, working on some myself. And I > think the Tim's Creation Myth was a great start. I hope > this trend continues...plus, with alot of comments on > people's work, to provide encouragement for others to > post as well. Let's get the ball rolling! I think this can only be a good thing. Already I'm getting ideas from comments about my idea that is making this list really live for me again. I've missed it. I hope its here to stay. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:42:32 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois ><< > There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one > > of them. > > Or did he? > Maybe there are some shelterd in the davanian mountains.. > Only the DV group knows.... > >> > >But that was his Immortality mission, IIR. You would hope he did a good job of >it . . . > >Then again, some nasty rival Immortal could reintroduce them just to tick him >off. Werehawks also might exist in the Hollow World. (I'd've put them in the Hollow Moon, myself, except that hawks can't see for beans in the dark! ;-D) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:44:49 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments: Orthodoxy > wanted my own individual campaign to be. No one will be > able to do that again if we squelch ideas that are a > less than "orthodox." > Right here I just have to say that all my ideas and versions are by their very nature the One True Orthodoxy, and everything else is base and ignoble heresy. (the above toungue in cheek, of course.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:49:58 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > > Nice work Tim! Thanks! > I miss good old Thanatos though. ;) Actually, Thanatos was in the place Ilneval when I first drafted it. That was right after I had done a list of Immortals and posted where I had lots of the Norse Immortals all over the place. Some one had written me about they didn't like having them be such a strong influence and another had said that they didn't care for the ones from legend either. So, I thought I'd pull those names from myth out of my list and see what it looked like. Needless to say there were many holes left unfilled. And even more surprising is that Immortals like Thanatos weren't original creations as I thought (love those myth databases on the net). Well, my name creation sucks so I was stumped. Then the idea came of using some of the alternate names of Immortals and fitting them in with the old areas of concern. Ilsundal became my sun god and Ilneval seemed similar that it gave me the idea of brothers. But that doesn't mean Ilneval couldn't be changed to Thanatos :) > Actually it would be cool to have a few of these creation myths for each > religion, preferably contradicting eachother so that people can argue > about which one is true and have religious wars and that kind of stuff. I would love to see some of those! > Violence is good for you.... ;) As much as its not a popular idea, that is so very true. And something I'll keep in mind when I get to the missing verses of the 'Song of Halav' ;> - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:37 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > > I have gotten that impression as well, loud and clear. > Funny thing is this--those folks are not even taking > part in this discussion, I don't think. Are we > preaching to the choir? > Probably. > > *EXACTLY!!* > > >Are we on the wrong list for this type of idea? > > If it is, then I've been wasting my breath. > Well, new stuff seems to get a somewhat warmer welcome on the Mystara Message Board, if that's worth anything to you. The discussions are different (not saying "better", just saying "different"), too, so if you think that hanging out on the MMB will just be duplicating what you recieve as a member of the MML, you'll be (hopefully happily) surprised. And you can now recieve MMB messages via Newsgroups (Netscape works best for that), without having to wade through the agregious HTML message board version (possibly the worst message board code I've ever encountered). The above might be a shameless plug, but if folks are looking for original ideas et al on Mystara, then IMO that's a good place to start. . *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:03:23 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia wrote: > > >Since I don't see Mystara as returning > > Neither do I, at all. Even if they did bring it back, > they've lost my business--I've done my own thing in > their absence. What am I supposed to do, take my > campaign back in time? I'd still pick up the occasional supplement or adventure if they did but the time and thought I've put into *my* Mystara really appeals more to me. Maybe glean from it what I can or just enjoy TSR's writing for itself but, for me, Mystara is all mine like never before. Cancellation may have just been the best thing. It forced me to 'grow up'. I like it :) - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:17:47 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City Excellent work, James. I have been a big fan of your site for quite some time (regardless of my feelings about the Empire!;-) I actually used your Hetaeria (sp?) Augustiana in a recent pitched battle for the city. Your vision of the City is wonderful: a grand and glorious place gleaming in the (Mediterranean) sun, with a hint of something darker and seeder humming just below the surface. Well done! As for suggestions, I would like to know a little more about the city government, especially the Eparch. And defnitely NPCs! Keep up the great work, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:22:02 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... >> > Glen wondered: >> > >> > >What would be found in a wizard's tower? >> > >> > >Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >> > >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? >> > Apprentices? What else? For a Glantrian wizard, it'd help to take into account both the character's principality of origin, and his/her Secret Craft status (if any). Both these things would influence what kinds of things you can fill that tower's levels up with, not to mention its decor and architecture. A Boldavian's tower might look like something out of Ravenloft, with a tiled, conical roof and overhanging eaves full of bats. An Averoignese wizard could have wine vats fermenting in his/her cellar, while a Krondaharan might have invested in a stablefull of champion horses. A Dream Master could have weird incense-scented meditation sanctums and a soundproofed, permanently Darkness-enshrouded bed, while a Dracologist might actually live in a simulated dragon-cave dug out beneath his/her tower, using the upper chambers only for guests and servants' quarters. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:23:52 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call of the Wild Canon Orthodox Policing Corps. > > I have gotten that impression as well, loud and clear. > Funny thing is this--those folks are not even taking > part in this discussion, I don't think. Are we > preaching to the choir? > Ok, well let me just argue in the alternative, then. I think that the current position of thouse of us who've argued for less emphasis on what is "canonical" and removing the presumption that "canon" is the same thing as "worthy of consideration" is itself getting a tad extreme. I've seen some suggestions that IMO imply, if not directly say, that invoking arguments over "canon" are at all times inapropriate, or inapropriate at all times when critiquing an idea or point of view. I don't think that is so. I think that at times "canon" based arguments and critiques can have their place. For example, it was stated that one should presume that folks are aware of where their ideas "violate" canon. This isn't always the case, even for myself (insert Jamuga-related comment here); their is a *lot* of Mystara-related materiel, and I for one don't have the phenominal memory I used to have (oh, the good ol' days. . . .); friendly reminders are sometimes appropriate. And, also, at times people's presumptions are just flat-out *wrong*. For purposes of illustration, take an argument where someone might say that all Atruaghin Clans worship Atzanteotl, and they base their description/idea on that mistaken impression. Unless they expressly say that they have altered the situation, IMO it isn't wrong to point out their error. This is *not* to say that something "consistant with canon" should be automatically prefered over something that is "an alternative to canon." For instance, IMnsHO, my "alternate" Thyatis is better than the "canon" version (once I finally get around to posting more of it, more folks might agree with my opinion). But it *does* mean that in my opinion clearly stating that "my" Thyatis is an "alternate" version is important. Otherwise folks would think I take drugs or something (they might already, but let me assure you: I'm naturally this way. I don't know if that will reasure you or not, though. . .), because their are lots of "inconsistancies" between my Thyatis and TSR's Thyatis (even though for several reasons I've tried to strike a balance between the changes in the version I post and consistancy with "canon", so that folks don't have to radically change their own versions of Mystara in order to adapt and use it in their own campaigns, by, say, eliminating Ierendi and/or Minrothad as independant nations, etc.) Clarity is important. That's why I *do* think it is apropriate to be clear when you're posting something that is intended to be a "deviation" from "canon". What I argue for is that people change their attitudes somewhat, and not nessisarily assume that "canon" is by definition better than "non-canon." But I don't argue that the baby be thrown out with the bathwater. We need not go to the other extreme, where only discussions over the "new" are appropriate, and "canon" becomes as dirty a word as "non-canon" now is. Porphyrogenetus the Advocatus Diaboli. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:29:40 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth >>BTW, are you specifically saying that >> humans were put on Mystara to be the "peacekeepers?" If >> so, I find that very interesting, since that would mean >> that humans were not originally intended to be here. :) > > I can already >picture some circles believing humans weren't meant to be and what kind >of human religion that would form into. Just wondering: Did the published materials EVER make any claims, as to how Mystara's humans came into being? Because unless we want to take that quip in PC3 seriously, that humans evolved from merfolk, we can't really say ANY theory of human origins violates "canon" (not that that's ever stopped us before.... ;-D)! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:32:25 -0600 From: Tim Haney Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. James Ruhland wrote: > > The below is an overview of Thyatis the City that I wrote up for my > website. Not everything in the overview is exactly according to "canon" > (see that recient debate), but it is broadly compatable with it. I was reading this and had the distinct impression I'd seen it before. Then I checked your website and yep, I had. I had no idea that was you on the MMB ;) > City Life in the 11th Century. > Industry and Trade in the City. Can't wait to see these two. BTW, any chance of listing (or a site) the definitions to words you've used? Afraid, I was lost on somethings though I think I got the idea of what they are in modern English. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:33:06 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB James shamelessly plugged: >Well, new stuff seems to get a somewhat warmer welcome on the Mystara >Message Board, if that's worth anything to you. >the agregious HTML message board version (possibly the worst message board code >I've ever encountered). Yeah...I've gone to check it out a number of times, and each time I wanted to scream within five minutes flat, for the sheer S_L_O_W_N_E_S_S of the thing. I know I'm missing out on a lot, probably, but i don't have the time. They should fix that. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:35:32 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - "Orthodoxy" James pontificated: >Right here I just have to say that all my ideas and versions are by their >very nature the One True Orthodoxy, and everything else is base and ignoble >heresy. Ha! Heretic! It is my way which is truth, and none other! Ye shall burn!! (*calling out the troops for jihad*) 8-)~ Just lightening things up a bit...Hey, it's the weekend! Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #699 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 700 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - Call of the Wild Canon Orthodox Policing Corps. Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizards Tower Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] I Did What? (was Call for Comments) Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - Re: Who's Who in Mystara [MYSTARA] - Discovered History ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:40:14 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City > > Your vision of the City is wonderful: a grand and > glorious place gleaming in the (Mediterranean) sun, > with a hint of something darker and seeder humming just > below the surface. Well done! > Thanks for the kudos. Actually, right after I posted that, I've been going through and making some edits (mainly for syntax and the like, since I don't like how I phrased some things). > As for suggestions, I would like to know a little more > about the city government, especially the Eparch. And > defnitely NPCs! > Their is some initial discussions of that on another webpage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Gov.html Most important city related offices are of course the Eparch (Eparch ton Polis): The Eparch regulates trade and commerce throughout the Empire, but is especially concerned with regulating it in Thyatis the City. He supervises one of the largest of the ministries, having a staff of 98 men, with offices in the Praetorion rather than the Great Palace. He is also responsible for governance and law enforcement in Thyatis the City itself, and is thus the closest thing to a mayor that it has (along with the leaders of the Demes, which see). His staff also includes the heads of the twenty or so commercial guilds of Thyatis the City. Then their are the Demarchs (4 of them, one for each "faction"; Blue, Green, Red, and White), who are actually elective, and who supervise "quarters" of the city (3 Wards/Districts each. N.B. that leaves 2 out, but thouse are special Wards, including the Imperial Palace, military areas, etc), including responsibility over the city's militia (again, 4 regiments, Blue, Green, Red, and White), and other aspects of "local" government. Below the Demarchs are a type of "Ward Boss" (12, one for each of the non-Imperial districts again), your usual machine politicians (James Michael Curley, eat your heart out), also elective. More details on these guys, and what they really do, will come eventually. The other Imperial official that should be considered important specifically for The City is the Orphanotrophus ("orphan feeder"): The Orphanotrophus is the official in charge of the Imperial orphanages and other charitable institutions. He is usually a renowned Cleric, and has a administrative staff of 8. The Orphanotrophion has also been given land grants sufficient to support its charitable works, supplementing direct government largess. N.B. that if you look at the Imperial Bureocracy, you'll see that most of the dudes have rather small official staffs. This is because by and large the Imperial Government manages to get "private" institutions to preform the actual work of government, through regulation, oversight, etc (c.f. the Guilds of Thyatis are regulated by the Eparch, through which the Emperor can get them to do what is needed in supplying Imperial needs, taxes are collected in effect by private businessmen, who recieve a % of the "take", etc -- a system that *can* be highly efficient if the Emperor is strong and supervisory controls are maintained, but it can also be open to corruption. After all, this is Thyatis we're talking about). Slightly surprising to me that someone used the H.A. unit. It is very munchy. Too bad I don't have the city militia stuff up, because that info could have come in handy for you. Oh well. Eventually, I'll get everything done that I want to (yah, right. I guess I'm a dreamer. . . .) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:46:04 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. > > I was reading this and had the distinct impression I'd seen it before. > Then I checked your website and yep, I had. I had no idea that was you > on the MMB ;) > Oh, really? I figured my. . . .distinctive. . .style ("ranting screeds") would have made that obvious. 8-)~ > > City Life in the 11th Century. > > Industry and Trade in the City. > > Can't wait to see these two. > Ok. I'll have to keep that in mind when I decide what to do next. Hopefully I'll write something up over the weekend. But I've been overly optimistic regarding how quick I can get this stuff done before, so. . . . > BTW, any chance of listing (or a site) the > definitions to words you've used? Afraid, I was lost on somethings > though I think I got the idea of what they are in modern English. > Which things are confusing? I'm afraid I'm probably so familiar with this stuff myself by now that it might be hard for me to tell what would be confusing to others. I'm guessing that you're refering to some of the titles used for governmental offices, and yes, I can post definitions. Also, all comments/suggestions about how to clean up even the stuff written in english to make it more understandable would be welcomed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:49:15 +0100 From: "Jamuga Khan" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Land of the Black Sands > >> Hey, > >> I need all the information you can give me on: > >> A: Land of the Black Sands > > The Land of Black Sands is in Ethengar, and I'm going to beat Jamuga to the > punch here. > Well, well, all your informations were correct. As they were not complete I'll add some facts... It's a haven for evil spirits and, of course, undead spirits. Yes, exactly those from the set and the RC! In the middle of the land there's the World Mountain. Near the top is a (IIRC) white pavillon where Great Khans are laid to rest. On the top itself is a passage to the Spirit World. >From time to time the "Wind of Madness" arises. It even reaches the steppe outside the Land of the Black Sand. Everybody who will be caught by this wind will become insane. After recovering he will have nightmares from time to time in which he will be hunted through the Land of the Black Sand by evil spirits. When they get him, what will happen sometime, the spirits will capture his soul and an evil spirit will take over his body. Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:00:46 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB > > Yeah...I've gone to check it out a number of times, and > each time I wanted to scream within five minutes flat, > for the sheer S_L_O_W_N_E_S_S of the thing. I know I'm > missing out on a lot, probably, but i don't have the > time. They should fix that. > Firstly, rather than sending a separate message, let me just say your "Orthodoxy" post had me rolling. 8-) Secondly, IIRC, you use WebTV, right? Does that mean you've got some kind of uniquely deviant browser capabilities? Because, if you have Netscape, then you don't have to use the agregious web version of the MMB, you can subscribe to it as if it were a newsgroup (tsronline.wizards.com is the server. I have "port 119" listed, but I don't remember if that is something refering to them, or something related to my own server). Access via newsgroups is much less annoying than the web page access is. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:10:58 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Briefly on canon, I think that my rhetorics in English made my final thoughts quite unclear: plainly, I was trying to mean (in a too-verbose way) that the concept of canon is quite wrong for our doing at the MML. I only pointed that, when speaking on particular projects (like the Almanacs, new maps and GAZs) which drive some of us together, we should strive to keep a bit of coherence and "generic" usefulness to all. At no moment did I imply that any "official Mystara line" should be consecrated and any ideas banned from the list. I was trying to express the opposite: the only final virtue that makes a non-official (and even official) product canonic is that it is liked and has a nice quality. Otherwise, it will vanish into oblivion, no matter how TSR or "mainstream" it is. Second, welcome to Ariel. BTW, I think that both your surnames and Jen's are Spānish, but your name is Hebrew. Are you perchance Sephardim? (I am interested because I am writing some papers on sephardim for my PhD). Third, I would like to propose another thread, this one perhaps a bit wild: If any of you has a knowledge of TSR's new SAGA system (as it is used for DL), I thought interesting to make a Fate Deck listing with Mystaran personalities (perhaps substituting the suit of Dragons for a suit of Immortals). It is a strange idea, mixing the newest TSR system with its oldest setting, and I do not think of pliying Mystara with SAGA rules, but I find some uses for the cards (like determining random events and casual reactions) quite quick and agile -for a change- even with D&D. Besides, as each card is related to a character, it would be a way of voting for a kind of Who's who in Mystara, selecting the 82 most significative characters in Mystara's history in different areas of renown. Anyone interested? Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:39:29 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call of the Wild Canon Orthodox Policing Corps. Commissioner James of the Orthodoxy Police postulated: But I don't argue that the baby be thrown out with the >bathwater. We need not go to the other extreme, where only discussions over >the "new" are appropriate, and "canon" becomes as dirty a word as >"non-canon" now is. Oh, I agree...that was never my intent. Let's just be brief and say that what I am advocating is an equal standing of *ideas*, in which if you think canon is best, fine; but if I think not, fine too. No more judgements on that basis. Jenn the secret moderate ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:42:14 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Sharon wrote: >Just wondering: Did the published materials EVER make any claims, as to >how Mystara's humans came into being? Because unless we want to take that >quip in PC3 seriously, that humans evolved from merfolk, we can't really >say ANY theory of human origins violates "canon" (not that that's ever >stopped us before.... ;-D)! Beyond being P.C. enough to say that black, brown, and white races sprang up all at the same time, I don't believe so. I would think that if you believe the demihumans were created, then humans were too, or if the demihumans immigrated, possibly so did the humans. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:52:23 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Andres wrote: (this little off-topic ditty first) >Second, welcome to Ariel. BTW, I think that both your surnames and Jen's >are Spanish, but your name is Hebrew. Are you perchance Sephardim? (I am >interested because I am writing some papers on sephardim for my PhD). I'll answer first on this, since Ariel's not here right now...my surname is italian, not Spanish. Ariel's is Spanish, yes. But his first name, IIRC, is an old family name. He'll let you know privately, I'm sure. :-) >it would be a way of voting for a kind >of Who's who in Mystara, selecting the 82 most significative characters in >Mystara's history in different areas of renown. > >Anyone interested? Sure! Here are a few suggestions: Tylion IV Telemon Thincol Torion Hosadus Eriadna Etienne Bensarian of Kevar (I think that guy has a history) If there's a joker in the deck, Zandor ;-)~ Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:58:36 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Galwylin wrote: >I'd still pick up the occasional supplement or adventure if they did but >the time and thought I've put into *my* Mystara really appeals more to >me. Maybe glean from it what I can or just enjoy TSR's writing for >itself but, for me, Mystara is all mine like never before. Cancellation >may have just been the best thing. It forced me to 'grow up'. I like >it :) Exactly! As I told some people before: TSR, by no longer supporting Mystara, has effectively placed it up for grabs, creativity-wise (not copyright-wise, however...). If we want anything new for Mystara, it falls to *us*, not any gaming company, to produce it. This is actually a liberating experience. So many possibilities are opened, now that we don't have to worry about whether what we're doing will accord with any future TSR product. Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:56:31 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB James the Heretic wrote: >Firstly, rather than sending a separate message, let me just say your >"Orthodoxy" post had me rolling. 8-) ;-) > >Secondly, IIRC, you use WebTV, right? Does that mean you've got some kind >of uniquely deviant browser capabilities? Because, if you have Netscape, >then you don't have to use the agregious web version of the MMB, you can >subscribe to it as if it were a newsgroup AFAIK, it's web version only. : ( But I'll gives the newsgroup thing a shot...maybe we can get it anyway... Thanks, (Of course, I am still going to obliterate you and your heretical ways! Soldiers, onward!!) Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:12:42 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: SAGA: > It is a strange idea, mixing the newest TSR system with its > oldest setting, and I do not think of pliying Mystara with SAGA rules, but > I find some uses for the cards (like determining random events and casual > reactions) quite quick and agile -for a change- even with D&D. Besides, as > each card is related to a character, it would be a way of voting for a kind > of Who's who in Mystara, selecting the 82 most significative characters in > Mystara's history in different areas of renown. Jennifer mentioned some and here are a few more: Bargle Aleena Stefan Karameikos Morphail Doriath McGregor Moglai Khan OTOH, it might be more appropriate to use the Immortals Halav Asterius Thanatos Ilsundal Ixion Rad Rafiel etc etc.. While we're at it. Why not use SAGA with Mystara? My group of gamers have recently truly begun to appreciate this system. We're using it with The Forgotten Realms, Krynn, Spelljammer(heavily modified) and the Wheel of Time settings and it workds just fine. I'm not using it with my Mystara campaign cause I spent all those hours converting it to GURPS, but if I hadn't done that I wouldve considered using SAGA. The only problem with SAGA as I see it is the magic system. However, there was an article in Dragon that intoduced a new SAGA magic system for using that game with other TSR settings. just an idea. Why stick with AD&D when you can have something better, eh? (Sorry about that one..) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:36:40 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizards Tower > >What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the >party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found >there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and >library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. >But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? Well one of my NPCs,a Dream Master, has a student-in-training, and treats her like any good Glantrian (or at least how any scientist--Dr. Jeckyl I presume) should: a free lab rat : ). I don't know where the appropiate place should be for these poor souls (she happens to think that she "lucked" into her special room Ha-Ha-Ha...!!!) but then again if your the Dr. and they're the "lab rat" does it really matter? Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:46:59 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > Are we on >the wrong list for this type of idea? No Tim we're not. I am also more of an ideas kind of guy and I know that if it wasn't for others creative juices added onto mine then it would be very difficult to enjoy not only the setting of Mystara but also to play; which is the real reason I think we're all here (at least for me anyway). Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:47:36 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] I Did What? (was Call for Comments) Jenni A. M. Merrifield meandered fecklessly... > I think that "canon" (If we are going to use the term -- I don't know if > anyone else remembers, but back during the "uncivilised" debate about it, > Leroy stepped in and banned the use of the terms "canon" and "net-cannon" > from the list -- but I digress.) Woah, woah! Gotta step in here... I never banned the words "canon" or "net-canon" from the list. The closest I said was that the MML, the entity as I run it, will not make any formal declarations about what is "net-canon" as it is not the place of the list to do so. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@lesbois.com ICQ #20039817 "Well, it seems the people see you as something of an ogre, sir." "What? Why, I ought to crush them and eat their bones!" The Simpsons *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:05:45 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments At Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:11:36 -0600 James Ruhland wrote: >[...] >> So, if you >> don't like it, don't comment -- remember what Thumper the Rabbit's mother >> said in _Bambi_: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at >> all". >> >That might be carrying things too far. I see no reason to banish >disagreement, constructive criticism, and the like (but then I *would* say >that: I *like* handing out Apples of Discord!) >[...] Oh, I agree with you totally James! Just to clear up what I meant by including the Thumper statement: If you don't like it and you don't have something "nice" (i.e., constructive, polite, etc., though not necessarily in total lovey-dovey agreement) to say, don't say it. As you have also implied in other posts, people who have put a lot of time and effort into something don't particularily enjoy recieving comments that just say "But it's not canon" or "I don't like it". But it can be interesting and useful to write something like: "Well, I don't really like this very much, and this is because of how you included 'point A' and/or because it contradicts 'source b'. If I were going to use this, I'd change this bit here in this way. What do you think?" The key is to say what you feel like saying, but for gawd sake, say it in a way that won't come across as "mean". Hope that's clear :-) Jenni - -=> strawberryJAMM <=- - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:09:56 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Who's Who in Mystara > >>Anyone interested? > >Sure! Here are a few suggestions: > >Tylion IV >Telemon >Thincol Torion >Hosadus >Eriadna >Etienne >Bensarian of Kevar (I think that guy has a history) >If there's a joker in the deck, Zandor ;-)~ > Good list but it is lacking two extremely important people (at least their people would agree with me.) Gylharen Thar Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:48:14 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History I'm back again with more. I've chosen to do the history of Blackmoor in a letter written by one of my characters to Terari of some discoveries he has made on the Isle of Dawn. I hope this is interesting to everyone even if you don't agree with any facts it contains. Maybe it will be useful as something to start an adventure to find out the truth. Some of this will be familiar as I proposed a different location of Blackmoor a few months ago. This is a little rough in some areas so comments will be very much welcomed. Any grammer mistakes I'll blame on Elrol :) ***** My most esteemed Master Terari, I must confess to a great deal of excitement in some recent discoveries made. It seems not only were writings telling of the creation of the world found but also my companions and I stumbled across a sealed chamber filled with scrolls. Unfortunately, most had decayed and are completely destroyed. Many of those that were intact were filled with strange markings in a language I have never seen before and, thus, remain undecipherable to me. I have enclosed everything for your appraisal of their truth and to add to the school library. I was unable to resist the urge to dive into the early history and have enclosed the findings of my studies. Much of the writings discovered contradict each other on some points but I am excited to report that most agreed on fundamental issues. I've endeavored to include only that which was in agreement. Perhaps, incomplete as it is, it will none the less excite you as it has me, as it is perhaps the earliest report of human civilization in existence! I have found many references to a land called Blackmoor. Most surprising is that the Isle of Dawn from where I write was once part of this Blackmoor. As the history unfolds, you will see that it is not at all the land it once was. The history states that the island continent of Blackmoor saw the birth of humanity and the Immortals found themselves pleased with their creation. All save Ilneval. He watched the creatures as they grew and learned to feed themselves from the land. Still he saw a useless creation. He took his disappointment to Noumena and found an ally. Together they approached Ilsundal with a plan to remake humans all that the Immortals wished for them. Intrigued by Ilneval and Noumena's proposal, he agreed that more was needed. Already humans had divided themselves into three great tribes: the Neathar, the Oltec, and the Tanagoro. Ilsundal judged that each tribe should be blessed by one gift from Ilneval, Noumena, and himself. Ilsundal blessed the Tanagoro with wisdom, the Neathar were given desire by Ilneval, and the Oltec were taught the ways of magic by Noumena. Minor gifts were given to all but these three gifts would become the greatest. Warfare became constant between the tribes and Ilneval was pleased. Ilsundal and Noumena became concerned. Ilneval pointed out that only through conflict could the humans grow properly. Both Ilsundal and Noumena saw the wisdom in this and stayed their hands. Soon the three gifts had been shared to all the tribes and Ilneval was proven true as humanity continued to grow in the ways of the Immortals. The Neathar drove the Tanagoro tribes into the southern sea to an untouched land. The Neathar then sought to dominate the Oltec and took many as slaves. Some escape by sea to the east while others were surrounded by deep forests and sheltering hills in the north. Soon the Neathar established a great empire that encompassed all save the Oltec to the north. They began to explore their world and set up colonies on the western continent taking many Oltec slaves with them. The Neathar colonies met the elves there and begin warring with them. The elves easily defeated their armies and kept the humans from spreading farther from the coasts. Fearing the elven race, the priests and mages of Blackmoor begin researching dark magics. Ilneval whispered to them that Noumena withholds the power they desire. In the night sky, her pale light shining upon them, they begin the ritual Ilneval has taught them to capture her magic. Noumena felt gripped in the ritual and drawn toward Mystara. Knowing that once she touches the surface, her child will destroy her, she cries out to Ilsundal. Seeing the plots of Ilneval behind this, Ilsundal releases his fury upon Blackmoor. Fire lights the night sky and Noumena is freed. The great land of Blackmoor is shattered. Little human life remains on the four remnants of Blackmoor save the northern lands of the Oltec. Even many of the colonies on the western continent had been washed away by the raging seas that filled the former site of great Blackmoor. Perhaps most chilling of all I've found is that Ilneval is reported to smile at the destruction as humans have proved worthy agents. What this means, I fear to speculate. Even more puzzling is that much of the origins of these writings are strangely absent. In fact, as you will see, some of the writings that even point to where this history may have originated has the name of the land erased. No magics at my disposal will reveal this information to me but clues point me to the barren land of Ylaruam. With your permission, I plan to visit that desolated place in hopes of finding more answers to these puzzles. Ever your loyal servant, Elrol Kavaros ***** Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #700 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, November 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 701 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower [MYSTARA] - Saimpt vs Saint Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt vs Saint Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... [MYSTARA] - RE: Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Newbie Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:51:15 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth > From: Sharon Dornhoff > > Just wondering: Did the published materials EVER make any claims, as to > how Mystara's humans came into being? Because unless we want to take that > quip in PC3 seriously, that humans evolved from merfolk, we can't really > say ANY theory of human origins violates "canon" (not that that's ever > stopped us before.... ;-D)! I haven't found definite answers to that. That's an interesting choice of where humans evolved from if you've ever read that life on Earth came from the seas. Instead of people protesting that humans descended from apes, they protest humans are from fish ;D Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:55:46 -0500 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... At 12:54 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the >party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found >there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and >library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. >But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? > Bedroom(s) for the rare times he might sleep. A pantry, Pot Of Infinite Coffee included. Next to last level would probably have a library. Probably somewhere in there would probably be a treasure vault. Personally, I would never have a tower, maybe a reverse tower, extending far underground, but that just might be the dwarf in me. Perhaps a fake tower as a front, with most of the tower extending down underground. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:53:56 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. > From: James Ruhland > > I'm guessing that you're refering to some of the > titles used for governmental offices, and yes, I can post definitions. Yes. Those are the ones. I think its feasible that if Thyatis ever controlled much of the Known World that some nations would still retain those names in some form. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:57:57 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics > From: Andrés Piquer Otero > > If any of you has a knowledge of TSR's new SAGA system (as it is used for > DL), I thought interesting to make a Fate Deck listing with Mystaran > personalities (perhaps substituting the suit of Dragons for a suit of > Immortals). I've actually thought of running a Mystara campaign with that system. I'm still debating it but it would be nice if they would do a Fate Deck with Mystara personalities. If anyone has ran a Mystara SAGA campaign, I'd love to hear what you've done. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:03:55 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth > From: Jennifer Favia > > Beyond being P.C. enough to say that black, brown, and > white races sprang up all at the same time, I don't > believe so. I would think that if you believe the > demihumans were created, then humans were too, or if > the demihumans immigrated, possibly so did the humans. In my Blackmoor history (coming soon to an Inbox near you), I've retained those names as tribal. Instead of having them created at the same time, I say they come from the same stock but change due to geographical reasons and their worship methods. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:33:31 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... At 08:55 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:54 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >>What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the >>party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found >>there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and >>library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. >>But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >>find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? >> Thanks to the people who gave me some great ideas (I like the Pot of Infinite Coffee). Rest assured they shall be put to good use. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:50:26 -0500 From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Jennifer Favia wrote: > > Well, you asked... > We had a big Vyalian independence movement a while > back. > Big twist--the Alfheim are the "bad guys" and the SE > are the good guys. > A lot of the breakup of the larger states (Thyatis > Glantri). > Maybe Ariel can think of some more... Independence from Karameikos? Is this with Alfhiem refugees? Or the actual country of Alfiem? Sounds nifty! Give us more info! > > > Jenn > > valerya@hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ > "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the > new." --M. Velasco > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 04:02:19 GMT From: lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon Baugh) Subject: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower One of the things found in wizards towers in local D&Doid games has been butterflies. The local tradition was that attempting to teleport into an area already occupied by a living being allowed the incumbent to make a saving throw to remain. This was a cheap, not 100%, but colorful anti-teleport field. Similar ideas were later used in Shadowrun (independent invention I think), as in that game astral projection would not work through living material, so the walls of the Top Secret Laboratory would be planted with ivy, (Ivy towers!) and later supplemented by "fat airborne bacteria". Transform rock to mud, plus some wheelbarrows and trowels and scaffolding and forms allow casting erie seamless wizards towers quickly. Lyndon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:03:40 EST From: Ambreville@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt vs Saint > Ok ... but i'll write Saint and not Saimpt : saimpt mean nothing in > French but saint is ... well i'm not good enough in English sancted ? Actually... it's "Saimpt", at least in the original material I wrote. The explanation is that Saimpt's rather twisted etymology is not "sanctus" but "semper", following the logic that Immortals are not necessarily "sacred" but indeed" "eternal" thus the root "semper". Part of the reason behind this rather bizarre approach is that TSR had this thing about not using anything related to Judeo-Christian religion. The (cheap) trick was to invent a phony term that was not "Saint-Whomever" but sounded just like it and meant something different. So... either you go with "Saimpt" because that's the original stuff, or you go with "Saint" because that's your campaign and the end result is about the same. Does this help at all? :o) Bruce Heard *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History This is cool, Tim! An interesting perspective on a possible location of Blackmoor! Now then, some questions: 1. Where on the IoD would the scrolls be unearthed? IMO, I think the Upper Thothian Plateau would be a neat place for this to happen - owing to the mysterious nature it already has. Did you have a specific place in mind? 2. Reading about the division of humanity into the three races, how long would this process have taken? 3. In the destruction of Blackmoor, you mentioned that four fragments remained. Are these the IoD, Belissaria, Greater Alphatia, and the Alatians? 4. You mention a northern remnant of the Oltec - would this be the modern Jennites? Er, that's all I can think of. Excellent work, Tim! :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:14:33 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Saimpt vs Saint Bruce wrote: >TSR had this thing about not using anything related to Judeo-Christian >religion. Ah, the spectre of political correctness wins out once more - not that I think less of TSR for doing so, but, it's not as if most players and DMs (IMO) would really care.... Well, IMC I use "Saint" or "Sainte" - s'all the same to me, game-wise :-) Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:37:40 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments JDaly asked: >> Well, you asked... >> We had a big Vyalian independence movement a while >> back. >> Big twist--the Alfheim are the "bad guys" and the SE >> are the good guys. > >Independence from Karameikos? Is this with Alfhiem refugees? Or the actual >country of Alfiem? Sounds nifty! Give us more info! Sorry to disappoint you, but I meant those two things separately! :-) ...Vyalia is independent from Thyatis. And in the Alfheim/SE wars, the Alfheim were not so nice, and provoked the war. Consequently (due to the Alfheim's attitude), there aren't too many Alfheim in Vyalia... Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:35:33 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments > > Hope that's clear :-) > Thanks for the clarification, it is clear now (it may take me a bit, but eventually I do "get it"). A wise person recently said "What really annoys me are the people who would enshrine the Known World and not do anything at all with it, for fear of changing anything. That's the true death of a game world." [B. Heard] He said I could quote him, so to him: be careful what you tell me I can do. I'll prolly do it. 8-)~ Anyhow, I think that sums up what I've been trying to say (among other folks), but 99% more consisely. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:51:26 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... At 12.54 06/11/98 -0500, Glen Sprigg wrote: >What would be found in a wizard's tower? Let's say you want to take the >party into Glantri, and have an adventure in one of the myriad towers found >there? The bottom level might be for his servants and guards. His lab and >library would be higher up, of course, as would his own sleeping chambers. >But what's in between? Let's say the tower has five levels. What would you >find on levels two, three and four? Weird beasties? Apprentices? What else? Obvously it depends on the mage and on how big is the tower. Does he own only that tower or does he have also other buildings near the tower? If the wizards only has a tower, then he has to put there everything needed for his daily life: a kitchen, a bathroom, the stables for his mount(s), bedrooms for guards, servants and apprentices (if any). IMO a mage who only owns a single tower is not very rich, so he probably has no servants and guards, at least not human (or demi-human) ones. IMO a richer wizard will usually have a few buildings around his tower to host guards, servants, apprentices and mounts (maybe also weird ones). In a five-level tower I would put (from bottom to top): hall and storage area; library; bedroom; lab; star observation platform. IMO it's always better to put the lab above library and bedroom, just to avoid blowing up you and your precious library if something goes wrong. Also, a rich wizard may also have some mean of quick movement between different levels: e.g. teleport platforms. Maybe in such a tower there're no stairs and the mage goes up and down using his magical broom. A nice idea could be of having the main entrance at the third floor, to prevent non-flying visitors to enter the tower. A note about "weird beasties", I would out those in the tower's dungeon, not into the tower itself... unless properly encaged. ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:17:34 EST From: GlobalFrog@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - RE: Call for Comments Yes I am a "lurker" to the group and have paid close attention to the discussions going on without participating up 'til now due to the fact that I have no players in my area and have been "out of the loop" for some years. I am just now getting involved back in gaming and getting back to Mystara in particular. Why? Because in all my years that I have played (and read...I must admit that many of the items that I purchased from TSR never saw any use as anything other than "idea fertilizer") Mystara, to me, has always been the best of the worlds created for our entertainment. And that is truly what it is for...entertainment. I feel that it is too bad that some choose to forget that it is a place with which each of us can do what we want. Canon, non- canon, makes no difference to me. I enjoy it all. I have been pleasantly suprised to find that there is this much support for a world which TSR thought unworthy to continue. Please, everyone, ENJOY IT!!! If it doesn't fit with what you want to do with your world then just enjoy it for what it is...great entertainment. Whether you agree with it or not each idea is unique and worthy of praise for being an attempt to breath life back into a world which so many of us thought had been left for dead years ago. Let's not let our own ideas of what should be "canon" and what should be "non-canon" finish what TSR started when they stopped their support of Mystara. Because when it comes right down to it...WE are the new torch bearers...the only hope that Mystara has of surviving on "its own". If we can't get along then what hope does Mystara have? BTW...love the ideas on wizards towers...especially liked the one about the tree chasing you around. Great creation myth too...not my style but very good with LOTS of possibilities. Frog *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:41:25 EST From: GlobalFrog@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just for a change in topic... Several ideas come to mind about mages towers...larger on the inside than on the outside is first to my mind...windows that look out over other planes of existence/other spots in the world ("And this, sir, is my "beach room"). An observatory on the top (of course), workshop with that flesh golem that seems to have the defective brain ("whose brain? Abby's brain? ABBY NORMAL? YOU GAVE A 7 FOOT TALL MONSTER AN ABNORMAL BRAIN?" love that show ::grin::). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:47:08 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Dave Keyser wrote: > There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one > of them. Would you mind sharing with me at least a rough description of their abilities and behavior ? Thanks for your quick answer. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:20:45 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Jennifer Favia wrote: > Hi Tomas, how've you been? Fine thanks. Overloaded of work but couldn't resist to reappear after you joined. I'm glad you came back again. >> It would make much more sense for me if someone >> could explain me what an Amber Lotus is. > Flowers growing along the River of Dreams which put > people in the AoE to sleep. Remember the poppies in > The Wizard of Oz? :-) I guess it's one of the two upper branches of Rugalov River which finally meet at the Lake Of The Lost Dreams. If so, i'd be grateful if any of you sends me a more detailed information to my private e-mail, which you can read on my signature at the end of this message. My players have recently visited Haven and i'd not like to ignore such feature. I think there's some information at the DMR2: Creature Catalog supplement which i stupidly left on my other home. Thanks in advance. AoE ? AoE ? What did those three letters mean ? >> Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe > Cool! Any idea when?? Not really. I finished its design yet but still working on a set of articles i planned to include. I'll keep you informed of its progress. Read you soon. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:38:31 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois >Tomas Sanchez wrote: >> It would make much more sense for me if someone could explain me >> what an Amber Lotus is. Giampaolo wrote: > Someone else already aswered this question. However, I can add that > first appearance of Amber Lotus should be in X2 Chateau d'Ambreville. Thanks for your appointment. I have taken good note of it, although i fear i'll not be able to consult the expert module. Do you think i could find it on Mark of Amber ? I own this supplement but didn't read it yet. >> Andrew Theisen wrote: >>> Looks good from here. IMC, I have St. Malinois as simply another >>> name for the Immortal Ruaidhri Hawkbane, aka the Silver Hunter >>> (from PC4: Night Howlers). What sort of relationship between the >>> two would there be in your version, if any? >Tomas Sanchez wrote: >> I do not own the quoted supplement, although i have spotted a >> pair of coincidences which point in your direction . The most evident >> beside their purpose is the assignment of an indian name, Ruaidhri, >> which could be given to him during his crusade against the shape >> changers in Sind. Giampaolo wrote: > As I don't have PC4 too, I cannot tell you much. What I can say is > that, if Ruaidhri and Malinois are the same, in my version they will > be a lupin immortal "adopted" by Sindhis, as the opposite seems to me > more difficult: lupin pantheon is less open to foreign immortals than > sindhi pantheon. On the other hand, if they are different immortals, > I wouldn't be surprised to find Malinois in sindhi myths protrayed as > a retainer of Ruaidhri. Good point. Now it's time for Andrew and Alesei to step in and make a few comments. Who will be first ? Read you soon. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 13:11:47 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Newbie Ariel Guerra wrote: > Hi everyone... Hello Ariel and Welcome to the MML ! > I'm new to the list, although I've been lurking via Jenn's account > for awhile. Because of the overhelmingly good responses in this > c/n-c debate, I thought that I should finally join. I think things > might open up some to more creative ideas around here now (like > Tim's myths). Anyway, I'll be commenting soon on the last few posts. We'll be wait anxiously until then. Read you soon. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 13:36:18 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Something Bugging Me...the Dead Hand of Canon Andrés Piquer Otero wrote: > 1. The core of the canon idea is imposed by the powers who take care > of the Text. In our case, the Text were Mystara products, first in > the hands of TSR, now, mainly, in the hands of the people writing at > collaborating around the MML (Almanacs, atlases, simple ideas...) What about TSR staff essays written out of work hours ? What about former TSR employees ? Do their writings loose their canonical status after leaving ? What's more important then, the writer or the employer ? What about articles published in Dragon Magazine ? Are they 1/2 Canon ? What about those published in PolyHedron ? Are they 1/4 Canon ? What would be our rating then ? Can freelancers as us ever be considered canon writers ? Which conditions must we have in order to be ? Having published some articles ? On paper ? On the web ? > 2. Canon must then be ratificated by the community: EG, if everybody > found a supplement, adventure or item particularly undesirable or > conflictive with the majority of accepted elements, it would be > rejected, no matter its TSR label (I think that is the case of a > product like The Book of Wondrous Inventions... sorry if somebody > around there defends it... I believe the community has the final answer to all this questions. And whatever canon is will be our election. And this right of us is greater than the status we grant. Thanks for reading. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:41:47 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois BoBoII@aol.com wrote: >> There used to were-hawks, until Hawkbane killed every last one >> them. Or did he? Maybe there are some shelterd in the davanian >> mountains.. >> Only the DV group knows.... > But that was his Immortality mission, IIR. You would hope he did > a good job of it ... Didn't know it was one of his quests. Could you please tell me who was his sponsor and which other quests did he accomplish ? Thanks in advance. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:53:56 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Aleksei Andrievski wrote: >> Then again, some nasty rival Immortal could reintroduce them just >> to tick him off. > Zirchev comes to mind. Is he really Saint Malinois' enemy ? If so, why ? I can't imagine Zirchev introducing such a pest having troubled his own country for several centuries. > About Ruaidhri and Malinois being the same - now that you mention > it, it is possible. They've got similar attitudes (bent on revenge, > hate all lycanthropes; though I'm not sure to what extent that applies > to Malinois; does he hate *all* lycanthropes regardless of their > personality or species?) I fear i can't answer this one. Please, someone who owns a copy of PC4: Night Howlers come to our aid, preferable Andrew since he started the whole thread. Thanks in advance. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #701 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, November 7 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 702 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] SAGA (was: On various topics) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower (was: Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History [MYSTARA] - portals Re: [MYSTARA] - portals Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] I Did What? (was Call for Comments) Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:51:59 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower I do not know if somebody has already pointed it, but I think that an observatory is mandatory in the top floor (perhaps taking the form of a side turret with a cuppola and orientable telescope if the owner owns enough degree of tech). A small menagerie is also in order, if the wizard wants to harvest some "common" spell and research ingredients. (it is OK to quest for a dragon's scale, but why scout the countriside for stirge's eyes or ape hair if you can keep one or two specimens in a cage?). Finally, I would like to point that not all the tower's height should be filled up with rooms and flooring. Some wizards like having a tall tower for mystical reasons (it must be a middle point, touching heaven and earth at the same time), so I would expect long flights of stairs revolving along the center of the tower, with little rooms at the sides on regular intervals (these would be bedrooms, food stores, kitchens, studies...) with rooms taking a whole floor only in special cases (like labs, reception halls, summoning rooms...). Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:27:14 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams One room, preferably the basement should be reserved for ritual spellcasting. It should be a dark circular room and on the floor a large pentagram should be carved/drawn. MYSTARAN PENTAGRAMS The pentagram is a magical circle neccesary for ritual magic. As the name implies the pentagram has five corners. Each symbolizing one of the Five Spheres. The top must always point north. This corner represents Matter. going clockwise the following representations of the spheres should be Thought, Entropy, Energy and Time. If the top of the pentagram points south and is invoked with the Sphere of Entropy, then this is a reversed Pentagram. This is a dangerous use of the Pentagram, but it is useful for summoning demons and other infernal creatures. In a regular pentagram, Matter should always be invoked first, then moving clockwise, ending with Time. After the magic has been worked, the process must be reversed moving counter clockwise. Invoking the Spheres is done by walking with a staff, drawing a circle around the Pentagram. When you reach one of the corners, a candle must be lit and a small ritual is performed with the appropriate wands. A wand is not neccesarily an actual wand. There are five magical tools, one representing each of the Spheres. For matter, a stone, for thought, a mirror is used. For Entropy, a skull, for energy a dagger and for Time a cup. These items need not be enchanted, but they must be decorated, preferably by the caster himself. While performing spells, the caster must be in the center of the pentagram, leading all the forces from the spheres toward him. He (or she) should be naked or wearing a thin robe as the caster must not be distracted by any material discomforts. A pentagram can also be used to trap extraplanar beings. When this is done the caster must be outside the circle. Thats some occultims for ya! :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:34:14 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Tomas Sanchez wrote: > I guess it's one of the two upper branches of Rugalov > River which finally meet at the Lake Of The Lost Dreams. If so, > i'd be grateful if any of you sends me a more detailed information > to my private e-mail, which you can read on my signature at the end > of this message. I think you may have this confused with something else, but I dont know for sure. Can someone help clarify this? > My players have recently visited Haven and i'd not like to > ignore such feature. I think there's some information at the DMR2: > Creature Catalog supplement which i stupidly left on my other home. Interesting. Did you use the stuff Mystaros wrote on Haven or have you detailed the place on your own? The PCs in my campaign might be going in to the Lake of Lost Dreams to find The Seer (Mentioned in Eye of Traldar), who is an NPC of some importance IMC. Any ideas are appreciated. Has anyone done anything on the Ilya pixies living in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:39:33 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Tim Haney wrote: > I'm back again with more. I've chosen to do the history of Blackmoor in a > letter written by one of my characters to Terari of some discoveries he has > made on the Isle of Dawn. I hope this is interesting to everyone even if > you don't agree with any facts it contains. Maybe it will be useful as > something to start an adventure to find out the truth. Some of this will > be familiar as I proposed a different location of Blackmoor a few months > ago. This is a little rough in some areas so comments will be very much > welcomed. Any grammer mistakes I'll blame on Elrol :) I like this! :) One of the ideas I especially liked was the part about each race being granted a special ability. Sounds a bit tolkieneque :) Maybe this has some effects even today. Maybe the Tanagoro are still more adept with magic. Most of the peoples of the known world are decendants of the Neathar, right? What effects can their gift of desire have? Do they suffer from the influence of Ilneval(That would be Thanatos IMC) even today. Was this the reason why the Nithians were corrupted so easily? Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:54:56 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] SAGA (was: On various topics) On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Tim Haney wrote: > I've actually thought of running a Mystara campaign with that system. I'm > still debating it but it would be nice if they would do a Fate Deck with > Mystara personalities. If anyone has ran a Mystara SAGA campaign, I'd love > to hear what you've done. Well, I havent actually ran a SAGA campaign, but I have some experience with the system. As I pointed out in an other mail, the magic rules presented dont work all that well with Mystara. Dont get me wrong, the freeform magic spell design rules are the best feature of the game, but the actual spell categories presented in the fith age box are very setting specific. Visit this place: http://http://web2.airmail.net/sponge2/greyhawk.html In here you'll find a new system which uses the AD&D schools + some new schools for priests which should work nicely with Mystara. In this site you'll also find new races and roles which are surprisingly well balanced. Balance is actually a bit of a problem with that game. You'll find that some races (elves for instance) are way too powerful. You should be very restrictive with handing out trumps or that will get out of hand. The races presented on the webside I mention are much better balanced. The elves there get a +3 to sword rather than a trump on all swords and all bows like they do in the 5th age box. The Mercenary role is a bit too powerful aswell imo, but if you use it unmodified, you should be restrictive about when the mercenaries can use their ability and when not. One thing I really disliked was the character generation system. I have made a new system for character generation which youll find on http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc/krynn.html (Shameless plug) Feel free to send me any questions you may have about this system.The number of points allocated can be changed depending on your gaming style for instance. BTW, we have Harold Johnson on this list. Aren't you sort of a SAGA guru? (If he doesn't reply, Harold has probably fallen asleep reading this tediously long email...;) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:57:17 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > One room, preferably the basement should be reserved for ritual > spellcasting. It should be a dark circular room and on the floor > a large pentagram should be carved/drawn. > MYSTARAN PENTAGRAMS > The pentagram is a magical circle neccesary for ritual magic. As > the name implies the pentagram has five corners. Each symbolizing > one of the Five Spheres. ... Thanks for sharing with us such nice idea. I've enjoyed it's reading very much and has suggested me a lot of new ones. Read you soon. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 17:33:35 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: Tomas Sanchez wrote: >> I guess it's one of the two upper branches of Rugalov >> River which finally meet at the Lake Of The Lost Dreams. If so, >> i'd be grateful if any of you sends me a more detailed information >> to my private e-mail, which you can read on my signature at the end >> of this message. > I think you may have this confused with something else, but I dont > know for sure. Can someone help clarify this? Anybody ? >> My players have recently visited Haven and i'd not like to >> ignore such feature. I think there's some information at the DMR2: >> Creature Catalog supplement which i stupidly left on my other home. > Interesting. Did you use the stuff Mystaros wrote on Haven or have > you detailed the place on your own? The PCs in my campaign might be > going in to the Lake of Lost Dreams to find The Seer (Mentioned in > Eye of Traldar), who is an NPC of some importance IMC. Any ideas are > appreciated. Has anyone done anything on the Ilya pixies living in > the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams? I used Mystaros' Haven Almanac Entry as a source of background information for B3: Palace of the Silver Princess and have been adding some things as they have been needed. I'd like to thank Mystaros for all the good hours we enjoyed due to Tom Moldway and him. We played this module as a flashback while one of my players returned home to the village of Rugalov and recalled his first adventure which started when him and some close friends from his village were visited while dreaming by a protector. This way i introduced a new group of players to an old one and gave them good reasons to play together. Am i a genius or not ? :) Unfortunately i do not own DDA3: Eye of Traldar so i have not heard about The Seer and the Ilya Pixies before, but their names seem so suggestive that i'm not going to let you go without telling me a little bit more. Please do it and tell me what sources did you use beside this one and which things did you add. Thanks in advance. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 08:55:44 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower (was: Just for a change in topic...) Global Frog wrote: >larger on the inside than on >the outside is first to my mind...windows that look out over other planes of >existence/other spots in the world ("And this, sir, is my "beach room"). I like that! Beach room, garden room (never have to worry about inclement weather again), maybe even a room that opens onto a place with a lot of monsters, so you're never short of things to experiment on (I guess that'd be a gnomish homeland for Glantrians;-) ... Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:00:47 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Malinois Tomas Sanchez wrote: >Fine thanks. Overloaded of work but couldn't resist to >reappear after you joined. I'm glad you came back again. :-) >>> It would make much more sense for me if someone >>> could explain me what an Amber Lotus is. > >> Flowers growing along the River of Dreams which put >> people in the AoE to sleep. Remember the poppies in >> The Wizard of Oz? :-) > > I guess it's one of the two upper branches of Rugalov >River which finally meet at the Lake Of The Lost Dreams. No, actually, it's a river in Renardy. As for Haven and the Lake of Lost Dreams, write me privataly, and I'll help you out with what info you need. > AoE ? AoE ? What did those three letters mean ? Sorry...area of effect. Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:18:18 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Tim wrote: >I'm back again with more. I've chosen to do the history of Blackmoor in a >letter written by one of my characters to Terari of some discoveries he has >made on the Isle of Dawn. This is great stuff, Time (once again). And made even better by the fact that it includes my *favourite* NPC! ;-) >I have enclosed everything for your appraisal of >their truth and to add to the school library. A hint of another sequel?? >Ilsundal blessed >the Tanagoro with wisdom, the Neathar were given desire by Ilneval, and the >Oltec were taught the ways of magic by Noumena. Minor gifts were given to >all but these three gifts would become the greatest. I like this idea. I think, like someone else has already commented, that the effects of this may be seen (somewhat) to this day. And it hints at the former greatness of the Oltec, which I like. >Perhaps most chilling of all I've found is that Ilneval is reported to >smile at the destruction as humans have proved worthy agents. (*shiver*)...Good visual. Referring back to the suggestion I made last time about myths for different peoples and cultures, I'd like to also see if this is a universal image. you will see, some of >the writings that even point to where this history may have originated has >the name of the land erased. No magics at my disposal will reveal this >information to me but clues point me to the barren land of Ylaruam. I can't wait. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:21:19 PST From: "M. V." Subject: [MYSTARA] - portals anybody wanna explain just how you create a portal to another plane? is there anything special needed? magic items, special components? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:41:21 EST From: Magesmiley@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - portals In a message dated 11/7/98 9:36:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, m_luckystuff@hotmail.com writes: << anybody wanna explain just how you create a portal to another plane? is there anything special needed? magic items, special components? >> Best thing to take a look at would be the description of the 9th level wizard/magic user spell Gate. - -Mage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:37:50 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics In a message dated 11/6/98 8:28:08 PM, you wrote: << The only problem with SAGA as I see it is the magic system. However, there was an article in Dragon that intoduced a new SAGA magic system for using that game with other TSR settings. >> Do you, or anyone else for that matter, remember which issue? BoBo II "To show an unfelt sorrow is an office which the false do easily." - -attributed to Cyril Ivlenescu, at the funeral for Princess Carnelia's father. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:08:44 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Tomas Sanchez wrote: > Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > We played this module as a flashback while one of my players > returned home to the village of Rugalov and recalled his first > adventure which started when him and some close friends from > his village were visited while dreaming by a protector. This > way i introduced a new group of players to an old one and gave > them good reasons to play together. Am i a genius or not ? :) This sounds interesting. I might try running a flashback adventure some time myself. Got any advice for me? Did you develope the Protectors anything beyond whats written in Palace of the Silver Princess? > Unfortunately i do not own DDA3: Eye of Traldar so i have > not heard about The Seer and the Ilya Pixies before, but > their names seem so suggestive that i'm not going to let > you go without telling me a little bit more. Please do it > and tell me what sources did you use beside this one and > which things did you add. Ilya: The Ilya Pixies are mentioned in B10 Dark Nights Terror. They live on an island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams. However, that island is cursed. Anyone living there are slowly changed toward chaotic(Evil) alignment. The curse can be lifted by breaking a magical mirror inside a large temple or palace in the center of the island. However, that mirror is guarded by skeletons (shiver!). I havent used this stuff yet, but I am thinking about changing the story a bit. Rather than having an alignment change curse, IMC there is a frost curse. People on the island are slowly turned into icy statues. (Except the skeletons). In game turns, I'd say pcs have to make a save each minute on the island or lose one point of dex, once reaching zero they are transformed to statues. The Seer at the Lake of Lost Dreams: The Seer is mentioned in DDA3 Eye of Traldar, just briefly as a possible owner of the Eye. The Eye is basically just a crystal ball with a few extra powers, though it is hinted that it may have other powers than those mentioned aswell. The Seer is mentioned as the Seer at the Lake of Lost Souls, but I reckon that is a typo. IMC, he is a diviner and a fortune teller of Traladaran heritage. He is a solemn hermit who lives in a small cabin on the western side of the Lake. He is on friendly terms with the Vyalia Elves and they often consult him in return for gifts and favours. He is in fact the most powerful traladaran mage in Karameikos, his power only rivaled by Teldon and Bargle. He is not a member of the Magicians Guild (My campaign is still in AC 1000) and he will not join the School of Magecraft if he survives Wrath of the Immortals. The Seer is an old man, his hair worn in a whip is gray. Yet he is strong and often travels the wilderness alone. His spells are mainly ones he has researched himself and his main interest lays in divination type spells. He can foretell the future by looking at the intestines of dead animals or using the Eye of Traldar if it is returned to him(It is now in the possession of Bargle). One of my players is planning to find the Seer to help him reveal the location of Illyana Penhaligion who is a villain IMC and a servant of Orcus, the Black Prince. Comments are welcome. I am also interested in anythin you have written on Haven. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:10:23 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 BoBoII@aol.com wrote: > << The only problem with SAGA as I see it is the magic system. > However, there was an article in Dragon that intoduced a new SAGA magic > system for using that game with other TSR settings. > >> > Do you, or anyone else for that matter, remember which issue? No, sorry. But the rules can be found on this website: http://web2.airmail.net/sponge2/greyhawk.html Hope that helps. Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:46:13 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [ADMIN] I Did What? (was Call for Comments) On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:47:36 -0700 "Leroy Van Camp III" wrote: > Woah, woah! Gotta step in here... > I never banned the words "canon" or "net-canon" from the list. >The closest I said was that the MML, the entity as I run it, will not >make any formal declarations about what is "net-canon" as it is >not the place of the list to do so. My mistake and my sincerest apologies for putting words into your mouth. I guess I misinterpreted (or mis-remembered) that age old post from so long ago. It's funny, but I /had/ wondered why you never stepped in to reminded us of that ban when people started bandying it about a lot and now I know -- there wasn't any ban in the first place. Duh-Oh! :-} <--- Sheepish Grin Jenni - -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:21:12 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History > From: Geoff Gander > > 1. Where on the IoD would the scrolls be unearthed? IMO, I think the Upper > Thothian Plateau would be a neat place for this to happen - owing > to the mysterious nature it already has. Did you have a specific > place in mind? I hadn't pick out a specific spot but you're right. Its somewhere in the Upper Thothian Plateau. > 2. Reading about the division of humanity into the three races, how long > would this process have taken? That's really hard to say. To me there are three different measures of time. Human time (that we use), demihuman time (which is longer that human time due to their longer life spans), and Immortal time (which could mean a day is a day or years). The human division into tribes most likely was a process of years but how many, only the Immortals know :) > 3. In the destruction of Blackmoor, you mentioned that four fragments > remained. Are these the IoD, Belissaria, Greater Alphatia, and the Alatians? Actually, its the IoD, Bellissaria, Alphatia, and Ochalea. That is when the all islands came into existance but Ochalea plays a larger role in things for me so it got prominite mention. > 4. You mention a northern remnant of the Oltec - would this be the modern > Jennites? The Oltecs that fleed across the sea to the east are the ancestors of the Jennites (haven't decided how I'm going to use them yet). The northern Oltecs become the ancestors of Alphatia (since I don't use the other world idea). The Oltec slaves that were taken to Brun also will be making another appearance :) > Er, that's all I can think of. Excellent work, Tim! :-) Thanks!! Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:39:27 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) > From: Håvard Rønne Faanes > > Interesting. Did you use the stuff Mystaros wrote on Haven or have you > detailed the place on your own? The PCs in my campaign might be going in > to the Lake of Lost Dreams to find The Seer (Mentioned in Eye of Traldar), > who is an NPC of some importance IMC. Any ideas are appreciated. > Has anyone done anything on the Ilya pixies living in the middle of the > Lake of Lost Dreams? This is what I had started before. The Seer is the keeper of the Eye of Traldar. He is like the great shaman/cleric/wise man of the Traladara people. Of course now, he's duties aren't as great as they once were but it was through him and the Eye that Traladara had remain virtually untouched by other nations for so many years. The Eye, besides its minor enchantments, allows the user to control vast numbers of people, armies and such (possibly even whole nations). The pixies defend the island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams. If someone forces themselves to the island, they find a simple island with some minor places to explore but not really worth visiting. Only the Seer can show them what is truly there and that is place called Haven where the Immortals of the Traladarans (Halav and company) speak with the Seer. Now this is all just guessing on my part since I never was able to fully detail it. But for some reason, Halav allowed the conquering of Traladara by Stefan Karameikos when so many others had trouble keeping the region and making use of it. So, Stefan has the backing of the Immortals of Traladara (but not the Thyatians as a whole). Perhaps Halav had some influence in Stefan's former duchy? Perhaps Stefan isn't a reincarnation of Halav but an unknowing tool for his plans? I never got beyond the simple idea of most of this, I'm afraid. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #702 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Sunday, November 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 703 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History [MYSTARA] - =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BIP=5D_Saimpt_M=E2tin?= Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] SAGA (was: On various topics) Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Mâtin Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - The Princess Ark Articles Re: [MYSTARA] - The Princess Ark Articles Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:55:33 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History > From: Håvard Rønne Faanes > > I like this! :) Thanks! > One of the ideas I especially liked was the part about each race being > granted a special ability. Sounds a bit tolkieneque :) > Maybe this has some effects even today. Maybe the Tanagoro are still more > adept with magic. Most of the peoples of the known world are decendants of > the Neathar, right? What effects can their gift of desire have? Do they > suffer from the influence of Ilneval(That would be Thanatos IMC) even > today. Was this the reason why the Nithians were corrupted so easily? Actually, its the Oltec that were more adept with magic (which is true as they are my ancestors of Alphatia and Glantri. Of course, they also are the ancestors of Ethengar and I'll be showing what effect slavery by the Neathar had on them). We'll have to see how the Tanagoro on Davania have made use of their gift of wisdom ;) The Neathar are the ancestors of the Known World today and as I do more histories, I hope you get to see that their gift of desire has been one of the greatest influences of all the changes that have happened over the years. They have formed the most kingdoms and empires (but before the tribes separated, all were able to share some of their gifts with the others so the Oltec and Tanagoro aren't without desire). But, as I hope more of my histories will show, desire without wisdom is the major reason so many empires and kingdoms have fallen. Especially with the Tanagoro's wisdom having been forced almost completely out of the picture. Ilneval knew that he wouldn't have to be so obvious as to actually meddle in the affairs of humans by giving them desire. Those that follow it completely will fulfil his own desires and the Immortals of good can't oppose him without seeming heavy-handed. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:03:26 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: [MYSTARA] - =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BIP=5D_Saimpt_M=E2tin?= Again, done mostly by Agathokles. - ------- Saimpt Matin (The Great Watcher) Lesser Power of Arborea, LG/Temporal of Thought, L PORTFOLIO: Fortresses, guards, those who died in battle defending their kin, safety and happiness at home ALIASES: Brother Shell (tortles) DOMAIN: Arborea/Olympus/Everwatching Keep DATE OF ASCENSION: SPONSOR: Korotiku ALLIES: Korotiku, Saimpt Malinois, Saimpt Ralon, Ka, Calitha FOES: Yazak pantheon SYMBOL: White tower WAL: Any A native of Renardy, Saimpt Mâtin was the most powerful priest of Saimpt Renard, and the first to devise a way to protect the lupins from the sleep-inducing amber lotus. After the destruction of these plants, the lupins were attacked by the Yazak goblinoids. Saimpt Mâtin guided lupin armies in many battles, dying in the decisive battle fought on the banks of the Dream River. His mortal body was buried in Château-Roan, and later moved to the crypt of Saimpts Mâtin and Malinois Cathedral in Rochefort. The Church CLERGY: Priests and Defenders in Renardy, Shamans in Tortle Tribelands CAL: LG, LN, LE, NG, CG WEAPONS: Any bludgeon ARMOR: Any MAJOR SPHERES: All, Combat, Guardian, Law, Protection, Wards MINOR SPHERES: Divination, Healing GRANTED POWERS: Save at +2 vs mind attacks; Cast Wards spells as if they were 1 level lower BONUS PROFS: Alertness DOGMA: Saimpt Mâtin's dogma stresses the defense of family and land. Followers must be ready to defend their nation from external aggressions. DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES: Most priests of Saimpt Mâtin (Sanmâtinites) remain in their home city or village, striving to protect their flock from dangers as goblinoids or the Red Curse. IMPORTANT CEREMONIES/HOLY DAYS: Followers of Saimpt Mâtin celebrate their patron on the first week of spring. During this week, members of the clergy cast most Ward and Protection spells for the next year, using devotional energy. Lay followers and Defenders take part in the ceremonies, but they also train to be effective militiamen. New members of the Holy Order of Were-Hunters devoted to saimpt Mâtin undergo their initiation rites in the last day of the week. MAJOR CENTERS OF WORSHIP: Saimpt Mâtin is revered in Renardy, especially in the frontier regions. His most important temple, which he shares with saimpt Malinois, is in Rochefort. Saimpt Mâtin is also worshipped in the Tortle Tribelands as Brother Shell. AFFILIATED ORDERS: Saimpts Mâtin and Malinois Holy Order of Were-Hunters (Cf. Saimpt Malinois). PRIESTLY VESTMENTS: Sanmâtinites wear dark brown habits, with a white rope as belt. They also hold the symbol of their office, a club-like staff. ADVENTURING GARB: When adventuring, most Sanmâtinites keep their staves, which they use as both weapon and holy symbol. Mâtinite Spells Holy Vigil (Abjuration) Level: 3 Sphere: Protection Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Duration: 6 hours/level Casting Time: 1 turn Area of Effect: 1 person/3 levels of the priest Saving Throw: None This ancient lupin spell, provided by both Saimpt Malinois and Saimpt Mâtin bestows the recipients full immunity to the effects of the Amber Lotus. Material component are a white lily for each recipient, burning incense (worth 20 gp/recipient) and the priest's holy symbol. ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:57:14 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] SAGA (was: On various topics) > From: Håvard Rønne Faanes > > BTW, we have Harold Johnson on this list. Aren't you sort of a SAGA guru? > (If he doesn't reply, Harold has probably fallen asleep reading this > tediously long email...;) Thanks for the info and the sites, Håvard. I had forgotten about Harold being here. Hey, Harold, any ideas on Mystara with SAGA? ;) Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:00:46 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Haven, (was: Saimpt Malinois) > From: Tomas Sanchez > > Anybody ? The area called Haven is just above the Lake of Lost Dreams but I've always gotten the impression there are two Haven's. One is on the actual map and the other is where Halav resides (I think that's how the put it). I think that may be causing the confusion as I don't believe they meant to have two. Of course now, I can't remember where I found either one. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:08:53 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History > From: Jennifer Favia > > This is great stuff, Time (once again). And made even > better by the fact that it includes my *favourite* NPC! Oh, a Terari fan? ;D > >I have enclosed everything for your appraisal of > >their truth and to add to the school library. > > A hint of another sequel?? Or that this is just a myth. I'll probably pull out some other things for it, but I'm going to leave much of it untouched so that anyone that wants to use this idea can find in it what they need to make it work in their campaigns. ;) > (*shiver*)...Good visual. Referring back to the > suggestion I made last time about myths for different > peoples and cultures, I'd like to also see if this is a > universal image. Thanks for that comment. I rather liked that visual myself. As to the universal image, do you mean of Ilneval sort of setting things in motion as a test? > I can't wait. Coming soon. And I'm going to see what exactly having Nithia wiped from the world means when you attempt to find information on it. ;> Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:10:48 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - On various topics > From: BoBoII@aol.com > > Do you, or anyone else for that matter, remember which issue? I think the SAGA for other settings article was in DRAGON #239 or #240. They did that one and one adapting it to Ravenloft somewhere around those two. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:15:54 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven > From: Håvard Rønne Faanes > > The Seer is mentioned as the Seer at the Lake > of Lost Souls, but I reckon that is a typo. But I like the name. I'll have to find a use for that ;) > Comments are welcome. I am also interested in anythin you have written on > Haven. Love what you did with the Seer! And the icy statues instead of alignment change is great (I hate messing with alignment too much. Its already burdensome enough). Definitely a message to save. Thanks for sharing! And if you ever do more, please post. Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:20:33 -0600 From: "Tim Haney" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [IP] Saimpt Mâtin Aleksei, If no one's told you yet, I love the Immortal Project. This is one area I have trouble doing (which is why I haven't helped out). Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 17:40:43 -0500 From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB Have you tried using a news browser? Simply point it to tsronline.wizards.com! It works much better that way! Jennifer Favia wrote: > James shamelessly plugged: > > >Well, new stuff seems to get a somewhat warmer welcome > on the Mystara > >Message Board, if that's worth anything to you. > > >the agregious HTML message board version (possibly the > worst message board code > >I've ever encountered). > > Yeah...I've gone to check it out a number of times, and > each time I wanted to scream within five minutes flat, > for the sheer S_L_O_W_N_E_S_S of the thing. I know I'm > missing out on a lot, probably, but i don't have the > time. They should fix that. > > Jenn > > valerya@hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ > "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the > new." --M. Velasco > "We acquire legitimacy through our actions." --G. Gander > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:59:27 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments Okay, here is one idea for the "Canon" discussion -- we should use it as a descriptive label only, not as a value judgment. Mystara material on the net could be described in terms of its "canonicity" by giving two Mystaran (Thyatian) dates -- the first being the year in which that material deviates from "canon" and the second being the year in which it is set. Since the TSR "canon" effectively ends in AC 1013, we could extend the "canon" dates by use of the Net almanacs. So, for example, if we were to run the module "Red Arrow, Black Shield" in the way suggested by the gazetteers, such a campaign could be described as: +1000/+1200 The first net almanac could be described as: +1013/+1015 (since it counts the last almanac published by TSR as its starting point and is assumed to have been published after the events of AC 1014 that it describes) This shorthand method could be used to sort out some variant settings -- in particular, gazetteer-like settings in which "Wrath of the Immortals" never happened could be recognized by initial date codes of "+1000". *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:59:26 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) One comment about proposed contents of a Glantrian wizard's tower: You should not assume that such a wizard is a hermit or a recluse. Instead of apprentices, his family (spouse/lover and children) probably live in the tower. There should also be a good number of servants (zero level) and guards (fighters, some of significant level and power). Apprentices would either live and work among the servants or walk to the tower each day from their own dwelling places in a nearby village. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:29:30 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth In a message dated 1998-11-06 16:52:49 Eastern Standard Time, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: > Just wondering: Did the published materials EVER make any claims, as to > how Mystara's humans came into being? Because unless we want to take that > quip in PC3 seriously, that humans evolved from merfolk, we can't really > say ANY theory of human origins violates "canon" (not that that's ever > stopped us before.... ;-D)! Given the existence of Brute-men/Neanderthals in the Hollow World and possibly the outer world as well along with references to dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures, the most natural assumption would be that humans evolved on Mystara. But I would agree that the only sort of account of human origins that would violate "canon" would be one that gives them a recent origin -- there seems to be no known time in Mystaran history when other humanoid races existed and humans did not. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:29:30 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History In a message dated 1998-11-07 08:54:27 Eastern Standard Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no writes: > One of the ideas I especially liked was the part about each race being > granted a special ability. Sounds a bit tolkieneque :) > Maybe this has some effects even today. Maybe the Tanagoro are still more > adept with magic. Most of the peoples of the known world are decendants of > the Neathar, right? What effects can their gift of desire have? Do they > suffer from the influence of Ilneval(That would be Thanatos IMC) even > today. Was this the reason why the Nithians were corrupted so easily? Another obvious question comes from the fact that many human ethnic groups on Mystara are of mixed or even non-Mystaran origin. What "gifts" would such characters have? If we assume that these gifts are passed exclusively through the male or female line, then we could have Antalians or even Elves with the Tanagoro "gift", I would assume. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:07:49 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History >> This is great stuff, Time (you see, this was not a typo, everyone, but me accidentally revealing Tim's secret identity--the incarnation of the Sphere of Time itself. Now you know how he knows so much about Blackmoor! :-) >Oh, a Terari fan? ;D Of course! :-) >Thanks for that comment. I rather liked that visual myself. As to the >universal image, do you mean of Ilneval sort of setting things in motion as >a test? I meant, is there a similar image in other myth cycles, so you think, of Thanatos smiling at the destruction, or of ____ (fill in the appropriate bad guy;-) >I'm going to see what exactly having Nithia wiped from >the world means when you attempt to find information on it. ;> I used to think that it was an absolute...then I strted seeing references to it in other works (adventurers finding pyramids; people saying stuff like "It belongs to an ancient people called the Nithians, about whom we know next to nothing," etc.). So now I'm not so sure how I want to use it IMC...I wonder what other olks have done with this. Comments? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ "Let Mystara not be a cemetery for dead ideas, but a nursery for the new." --M. Velasco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 00:38:54 -0500 (EST) From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander) Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Galwylin wrote: >I hadn't pick out a specific spot but you're right. Its somewhere in the >Upper Thothian Plateau. Sounds like another reason to go there! :-) >That's really hard to say. To me there are three different measures of >time. Human time (that we use), demihuman time (which is longer that human >time due to their longer life spans), and Immortal time (which could mean a >day is a day or years). The human division into tribes most likely was a >process of years but how many, only the Immortals know :) Good answer. :) Leave it up for the DM to decide. IMO, I think it would be a faily long period (~5000 years or so), but to each their own. >Actually, its the IoD, Bellissaria, Alphatia, and Ochalea. That is when >the all islands came into existance but Ochalea plays a larger role in >things for me so it got prominite mention. Interesting! What do you have planned for Ochalea, anyway? >The Oltecs that fleed across the sea to the east are the ancestors of the >Jennites (haven't decided how I'm going to use them yet). The northern >Oltecs become the ancestors of Alphatia (since I don't use the other world >idea). The Oltec slaves that were taken to Brun also will be making >another appearance :) Ethies? Or Oltec/Azcans? The mind boggles at the possibilities! Geoff - -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog au998@freenet.carleton.ca *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:33:09 EST From: DrklngMuse@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Princess Ark Articles I just picked up the Dragon Annual 1998 and inside is an ad for "Every Dragon Magazine-Issues 1-250, completely searchable on two CDs." It is coming out in March 99. Great news!!! I am really excited about having access to all the Ark articles. I just wanted to share the news. Relurking, Ryan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:16:27 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Princess Ark Articles In a message dated 1998-11-08 01:57:31 Eastern Standard Time, DrklngMuse@aol.com writes: > I just picked up the Dragon Annual 1998 and inside is an ad for "Every > Dragon Magazine-Issues 1-250, completely searchable on two CDs." It is coming out > in March 99. Great news!!! I am really excited about having access to all the > Ark articles. I just wanted to share the news. This is especially interesting given that TSR/WotC claimed that they (1) did not have reprint rights to some of the earlier articles and (2) they were in a format that they could not scan and convert anyway. Anyway, I am looking forward to picking up these CDs. It will be great to have a searchable version of the magazine, as well as to see some of those first forty or so issues that I missed. This is indeed great news. And those of you who missed the Princess Ark series will be able to search that CD-ROM for whatever Bruce Heard had to say on any topic. I imagine that all but one person on this list is dancing for joy at that possibility.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:19:31 EST From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - A Creation Myth Tim - Great job on the creation story. Of course, it has to be labeled non-canon (:P Sorry, couldn't resist that). Then again, any creation myth that is designated "canon" would lose its "myth" status and, IMO, all its charm. Again, superb job...let's see more of this kind of work. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:31:38 EST From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments In a message dated 11/5/98 2:38:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, valerya@hotmail.com writes: << I am very glad that we are finally discussing this canon/non-canon thing in a civilized way. But I think it is apparent that there are Mystarans who have not commented on this (unless I am wrong and there are only five of us left on the list). To those folks: I respect that you may not want to voice your opinion, but please reconsider. We will never get anywhere in this matter if we do not hear from at least most of everyone. I think we all value the democratic spirit of the MML (*umm...Hi, King LeRoy!*)...in which case this debate is critical. So let your voice be heard. >> My 2 cents... To me, Mystara canon is anything that TSR (the owners of all Mystara prpoperties) publishes regarding that game world. I include its periodicals (Dungeon/Dragon), though I consider these "less sacred" (for lack of a better term) since they are not part of the Mystara product line and a smaller fraction of the list would have easy access to these sources. Video games? I don't know if I'd label them canon. If they were well done and seemed consistent with the Mystara setting, however, I'd probably have to say "Why not?" Again, though, such a source would be difficult to discuss among the masses if only one person on the list has these games. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:00:00 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Call for Comments In a message dated 1998-11-08 09:54:59 Eastern Standard Time, Demmero@aol.com writes: > To me, Mystara canon is anything that TSR (the owners of all Mystara > prpoperties) publishes regarding that game world. I include its periodicals > (Dungeon/Dragon), though I consider these "less sacred" (for lack of a > better term) since they are not part of the Mystara product line and a smaller > fraction of the list would have easy access to these sources. Heretic! You would deny the words of St. Bruce [Heard]? ;) If I took the concept of "canon" at all seriously, we might have the makings of a schism here. In any case, once that CD-ROM comes out next year we should all have easy access to anything in any issue of Dragon magazine. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:56:09 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > This sounds interesting. I might try running a flashback adventure > some time myself. Got any advice for me? Sure. GMing a flashback adventure is not an easy task. Flasbacks adventures should avoid high rated risks. Some of the involved PCs could have worked hard enough to reach higher levels and playing on the past can force them to play with too much less resources than they deserve. If an unexpected death occurs all your campaign could be spoiled. PCs know it and could think a heavenly presence watch over them. They are wrong. The GM has to be courageous and take hard decisions if they didn't play well. The Palace of the Silver Princess it's not a flashback adventure i'd recommend since it's a classic hack & slash adventure despite its nice background. > Did you develope the Protectors anything beyond whats written in > Palace of the Silver Princess? No. I didn't think it would be needed but now it seems an appealing suggestion. Two of the surviving PCs which were introduced are native to Haven so i'll probably ought to develop further the area. >> Unfortunately i do not own DDA3: Eye of Traldar so i have >> not heard about The Seer and the Ilya Pixies before, but >> their names seem so suggestive that i'm not going to let >> you go without telling me a little bit more. Please do it >> and tell me what sources did you use beside this one and >> which things did you add. > Ilya: > The Ilya Pixies are mentioned in B10 Dark Nights Terror. They > live on an island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams. > However, that island is cursed. Anyone living there are slowly > changed toward chaotic (Evil) alignment. The curse can be lifted > by breaking a magical mirror inside a large temple or palace in > the center of the island. However, that mirror is guarded by > skeletons (shiver!). > I havent used this stuff yet, but I am thinking about changing > the story a bit. Rather than having an alignment change curse, > IMC there is a frost curse. People on the island are slowly > turned into icy statues. (Except the skeletons). In game turns, > I'd say pcs have to make a save each minute on the island or > lose one point of dex, once reaching zero they are transformed > into statues. What caused this curse to fall over the Island ? Should those pixies be evil aligned too ? I've been wondering about the exact nature of the curse and i've come with the following idea. There could be no curse but a madness which fell over those who dared to sleep on the island and were later visited by its faerie denizens. Those mortals who didn't pay attention to the elders advice and spent the night on it would be invited by the silvan dwellers to go with them and eat, drink and dance until dawn. To find this same morning they had lost their interest on everything that truly mattered to them before, wishing nothing but returning back to the lands of faerie. What do you think about it ? > The Seer at the Lake of Lost Dreams: > The Seer is mentioned in DDA3 Eye of Traldar, just briefly as a > possible owner of the Eye. The Eye is basically just a crystal > ball with a few extra powers, though it is hinted that it may > have other powers than those mentioned aswell. The Seer is > mentioned as the Seer at the Lake of Lost Souls, but I reckon > that is a typo. Which powers do it have ? Maybe this name's not a typo. Could there exist some kind of similitude between the styx lake and this one ? What if the Eye of Traldar allows the Seer to contact the souls of all the traldars deceased ? Tell me your opinion about this idea. > IMC, he is a diviner and a fortune teller of Traladaran heritage. > He is a solemn hermit who lives in a small cabin on the western > side of the Lake. He is on friendly terms with the Vyalia Elves > and they often consult him in return for gifts and favours. He > is in fact the most powerful traladaran mage in Karameikos, his > power only rivaled by Teldon and Bargle. He is not a member of > the Magicians Guild (My campaign is still in AC 1000) and he will > not join the School of Magecraft if he survives Wrath of the > Immortals. My campaign is currently on the year 972 AC :) > The Seer is an old man, his hair worn in a whip is gray. Yet he > is strong and often travels the wilderness alone. His spells are > mainly ones he has researched himself and his main interest lays > in divination type spells. He can foretell the future by looking > at the intestines of dead animals or using the Eye of Traldar if > it is returned to him (It is now in the possession of Bargle). As i hinted before i wonder if his divination accuracy could come from the dead's knowledge. Although, i like the viscera's based divination idea too much. > One of my players is planning to find the Seer to help him reveal > the location of Illyana Penhaligion who is a villain IMC and a > servant of Orcus, the Black Prince. I didn't remember Orcus have been given such title anywhere. > Comments are welcome. I am also interested in anything you have > written on Haven. We've played four or five days at most on Haven so i've not had time enough to develop it. Although, as you've read i'm anxious to start with it. I'll probably work on the village of Rugalov too since it's the home town of most of my players. Thanks for your attention. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #703 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 704 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #702 ( Weird names ) [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB [MYSTARA] - Hells Ledbalfs... [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics [MYSTARA] - D&D MUSH Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D MUSH ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:56:44 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Tim Haney wrote: > The area called Haven is just above the Lake of Lost Dreams but I've > always gotten the impression there are two Haven's. One is on the > actual map and the other is where Halav resides (I think that's how > the put it). I think that may be causing the confusion as I don't > believe they meant to have two. Of course now, I can't remember > where I found either one. Excerpt from : The Communities of Karameikos. Strange Sites. Page 40. Haven is a "lost valley" created as a kind of vacation spot by the immortals Halav, Petra and Zirchev. They have cut it off almost completely from the outer world; they let outsiders find the valley only when in the direst need and may not let them find it again later. Excerpt from : Mystaros Almanac Entry. Location. When in the Prime Plane, the Lost Land of Haven is found in the eastern most corner of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos, north of the Vyalia Elves and east of the Wufwolde Hills. Otherwise, the Lost Land of Haven is somewhere in the land of Faerie. My rambles on Haven : You'll agree with me there seem to be only one though it can change it's location or at least be unreachable sometimes. I'd love to know where did you read otherwise. Thanks for quick answer. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:56:56 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Tim Haney wrote: >> The Seer is mentioned as the Seer at the Lake >> of Lost Souls, but I reckon that is a typo. > But I like the name. I'll have to find a use for that ;) It could have been known with two different names though it remained the later. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 21:15:45 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: mystara-digest V1997 #702 ( Weird names ) mystara-digest : > From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Andres and Havard. You guys chose such weird names... ;) - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:56:18 +0100 From: Tomas Sanchez Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Tim Haney wrote: > This is what I had started before. The Seer is the keeper of the > Eye of Traldar. He is like the great shaman/cleric/wise man of the > Traladara people. Of course now, his duties aren't as great as they > once were but it was through him and the Eye that Traladara had > remain virtually untouched by other nations for so many years. > The Eye, besides its minor enchantments, allows the user to control > vast numbers of people, armies and such (possibly even whole nations). Excuse me for having not gotten well enough your idea but doesn't seem somewhat confronted the idea of The Seer being a sage or diviner and The Seer as a commander ? > The pixies defend the island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams. > If someone forces themselves to the island, they find a simple island > with some minor places to explore but not really worth visiting. > Only the Seer can show them what is truly there and that is place > called Haven where the Immortals of the Traladarans ( Halav and > company ) speak with the Seer. Now this is all just guessing on my > part since I never was able to fully detail it. But for some reason, > Halav allowed the conquering of Traladara by Stefan Karameikos when > so many others had trouble keeping the region and making use of it. > So, Stefan has the backing of the Immortals of Traladara (but not > the Thyatians as a whole). Perhaps Halav had some influence in > Stefan's former duchy ? Perhaps Stefan isn't a reincarnation > of Halav but an unknowing tool for his plans? I believe King Halav was shown after reaching the immortality he and his kin were not the original denizens of the lands he once ruled. Thereafter he considered traldars all who worked for the duchy's benefit and watched over them. At least so it was IMC. > I never got beyond the simple idea of most of this, I'm afraid. Better this way. We can fashion it together. Read you soon. - ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez Jr. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe - ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:27:51 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 Surprise, I'm back! I've finally planted my buttocks down long enough to get some more of Sir Alexius' story down. Those wishing to read earlier chapters can find them at the following location: http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan/Mystara/TheQuest/TheQuest.html My most humble thanks to the Mighty Khan for contributing to improved relations between the most noble Ethengar Khanates and the glorious Kingdom of Karameikos by posting these chapters for me. Comments welcomed and appreciated. ********************** CHAPTER 4 - Specularum The Westron Road stretched from Specularum to Luln, one of the young Duke Stefan's first attempts to civilize the wilderness that had been Traladara. To the people of Karameikos, it was a symbol of the continuing improvement of their way of life. Now, to Alexius, it was just another road. The knight rode along in silence, ignoring the crisp afternoon air or the beautiful blue sky that defied the winter storms that had been constant over the last month. The countryside was blanketed in the dress of winter, the fields waiting patiently for the warmth of spring to clothe them in the verdant colors of life. Alexius shielded his eyes from the bright sunlight that reflected off the snows. He could see the city walls in the distance. He would be in Specularum before nightfall. He had been delayed long enough on this trip already; he had been asked to spend an evening at dinner with the commander of Riverfork Keep, which had cost him nearly a full day's travel. Two days ago, he had been required to assist some villagers whose homes had been raided by an orc tribe that was hiding in the forest. They had attacked again while Alexius was there, and he and Valen had made short work of the raiding party. The two survivors had warned their fellows to avoid the region for a while. Alexius did not begrudge his duties as a knight, but at the moment he wanted little to do with them. He only wanted to get to Specularum and present his report, then try to find some direction in his life. The meeting with Serrah's spirit had done little to soothe his anguish, and even her final words had seemed hollow to him. How could he avenge her when Ludwig and Bargle had vanished to parts unknown? He hadn't the slightest clue where to start looking. The remaining miles to Specularum passed quickly, and Alexius arrived at the gates shortly before sunset. The guards met him before the gates and saluted him. "Welcome home, Sir Knight," said one. "You appear to have had a long journey." Alexius nodded. "I bring word from the Ambassador to the Shires. Will you send a messenger to the palace to inform Minister Yarol of my arrival? I'll be staying at the Silver Bear Inn, on Westron Alley." The guard saluted again. "It shall be done at once, Sir Knight. Will you be at the Hall of your Order at all tonight, Sir?" Alexius nodded again and passed through the gates. He resisted an urge to slump down in his saddle; his misery was private, and not to be shared with the common folk of the city. He had, he reflected with an inner grimace, the Order's reputation to uphold. He sat straight in the saddle, and Valen nearly pranced down the road. They passed the Foreign Quarter and entered the city proper. The city was quieting down now, and the street merchants packed away their wares for the night. Alexius followed the main road, riding past the High Palace, the home of King Stefan. Torches had been lit atop the walls of the stronghold, and Alexius could make out the silhouetted guards on their nightly patrol of the king's stronghold. Alexius had no real desire to see his fellow knights at the Griffon's Hall, but tradition bore down on him, outmatching his reluctance. He had been a knight since before the war that had shattered so many lives, and even in the darkest despair after Serrah's death he had not forgotten the knights. The Hall of the Order of the Griffon was a majestic structure, its fortified stone walls a sturdy reminder to the people of the city that the Knights of Karameikos would be on guard for their safety. Alexius rode up to the gates, where he was greeted by two guards. "Welcome home, Sir Alexius." Alexius grunted. "It's good to be back," he said, but the words were empty of meaning. He dismounted and entered the Hall. When he had divested himself of his heavy winter cloak, he went to the main gathering room of the Knights. Inside were about a dozen men and women of varying ages, all involved in a deep discussion. One of the women noticed Alexius' entry, and stood up to greet him. "Hello, Alexius," she said. She was a fair-haired woman of about thirty years of age. Around her neck she wore the symbol of the Church of Karameikos, indicating her standing as a priestess. "Hello, Aleena," replied Alexius. "How have things been in the city?" "Busy. There's talk of civil war in Rockhome, and there has been almost no news coming from the dwarves since New Year's Day. The last we heard, their ancient King had come back from the depths of the earth to rule them again. King Everast didn't agree with that decision, and that's the last we've heard." "Sorry to hear that." Aleena looked at him carefully. "What happened in the Shires, Alexius?" The other knights stopped their discussion to look at the new arrival with expectant faces. "Nothing." "Nothing?" repeated Sir Althinus. "I thought the Black Eagle was going to be tried and executed." "He was tried." "And he wasn't killed?" exclaimed Aleena. "They let him go?!" "No. He escaped." Alexius gave them a brief outline of what had transpired in Shireton. "I'm making a more complete report to His Majesty tomorrow," he concluded. Aleena shook her head. "Oh, Alexius, I'm sorry." She reached out to take his hand, but he jerked it away. She looked at him in surprise. "I'm fine, Aleena. I don't need sympathy or pity. If you'll excuse me, I have a room waiting for me at the Silver Bear." "You won't be staying here tonight?" asked Althinus. "No. I only came by to pay my respects. But I'm not going to be in Specularum for long." "Where are you going?" "I'm going to find him and bring him back in chains to face justice." "Where will you look for him?" asked Aleena. "He could be anywhere." "I'll start at Fort Doom. There might be some clue or hint as to what happened." "And if there's not?" "Then I'll try something else." Before the discussion could continue, Alexius abruptly turned and walked out. He retrieved his cloak and left, riding Valen through the darkened streets of Specularum to the Silver Bear Inn. As he rode, he thought about the knights. He knew they were trying to help him, but he didn't want any help. They were more than just comrades in arms, though. Aleena and he had been friends when they were younger. Then Alexius had left Threshold to find his fortune. He had found Serrah instead, and happiness. He realized that he had been inexcusably rude to them. He would have to return in the morning and apologize. Regardless of his personal feelings, his oath required him to treat all knights and other nobles with respect, even the ones that didn't deserve it. Like a certain baron several years previously, on the very day Alexius attained his knighthood. "His Grace, Baron Ludwig von Hendriks!" The herald announced the arrival of Duke Stefan's cousin as the swarthy black-haired baron strode into the Duke's throne room as if he owned it. Rumor had it that he did in fact covet the Duke's throne, but those rumors were generally grouped with the absurd ones about his treatment of the local population in his barony. Such stories were common throughout Karameikos in the early days of Duke Stefan's reign, when the local Traladaran people found themselves subject to the Thyatian nobles who accompanied Stefan to the new land of opportunity. Alexius Dannelaran and his bride of two weeks had arrived only minutes before the man who referred to himself as the Black Eagle. Alexius was dizzy from all the things that had happened to him. The day of their wedding, he and Serrah had received a summons from the Duke himself, ordering him to present himself at the capital city on this day to receive a knighthood for his meritorious service to the Royal Family. They had been in Kelvin that day, and had been married by Desmond Kelvin himself, son of Baron Kelvin. Von Hendriks glared at Alexius, for no reason the warrior could discern. The Black Eagle was known to have a mercurial temper, but Alexius knew of nothing that had brought him to the baron's attention. Indeed, he and his companions had stopped a vicious band of slavers called the Iron Ring, rescuing a great number of people from their clutches. "So you're the hero that shut the slavers down, are you?" asked the baron in a smooth voice that didn't match the sharp look he had given Alexius. Alexius was nonplussed by the question. "I didn't consider myself a hero, your Grace. I only did my duty to my liege the Duke. But to answer your question in the spirit it was intended, I did lead that band of adventurers, and we did destroy the Iron Ring." "Not all of it," corrected a tall, slender woman with long black hair. She was dressed in the robes of a Karamekian Church novice. "There have been other sightings of the band, and more disappearances." She shook Serrah's hand. "I am Magdel, assistant to Patriarch Jowett. I am pleased to make your acquaintance." "As am I," replied Serrah. Alexius bowed formally to her, but the Black Eagle only stared at her. "So these slavers are still roaming about. Guess you weren't as thorough as you thought, eh?" Alexius could not fathom the Baron's hostility. "If we should encounter them again, your Grace, we will do our best to complete the job we started. Slavery has no place in Karameikos." Brother Kanterius joined them. He bowed to Magdel. "Greetings, Sister. How fares our blessed patriarch?" "He is old," replied Magdel with a smile. "And if you'll take a look over in the corner, you'll see a certain Patriarch making all the friends he can in the hope that Patriarch Jowett will shortly take an eternal nap." Alexius glanced over. Kanterius nodded. "Alfric Oderbry. Is he still considered a candidate?" Before anyone could reply, the Black Eagle grabbed Alexius by the shoulder. "Watch yourself, hero. I know for a fact that there are some powerful people connected with the Iron Ring. You may have made a larger enemy than you know." Alexius tried to extricate himself from the baron's grip, but Ludwig's fingers were like a vise. "I shall keep that in mind, your Grace," he said, refusing to show any discomfort. "You seem to know a great deal about the Iron Ring, your Grace," said Serrah, fixing the baron with a steely eye. "If you know so much, why don't you tell his Grace the Duke so these people can be properly dealt with? Or perhaps you'd rather the Iron Ring continue their efforts. I hear that slavery is alive and well in Fort Doom." "Serrah, enough," said Alexius. "One doesn't make such statements about the Duke's cousin, particularly in the Duke's throne room." He finally pulled himself free of Ludwig's grip. Ludwig merely glared at Serrah, venom in his eyes. "Yes, there can be...consequences," he said. Without another word, he left them. "My, that was interesting," commented Kanterius. "What's his problem?" "He's a slaver himself," answered Serrah. "He trades in them through his barony, and sells Traladaran peasants to Thyatian slavers or anyone else who will buy." "Serrah!" exclaimed Alexius in shock. "Do you know what you're saying?" She nodded. "Beware, my love. The Black Eagle has more enemies than friends, and you've just been added to his list." How right she had been, thought Alexius as he stopped Valen before the Silver Bear Inn. Ludwig was too arrogant to completely hide his motives, but Alexius had not seen them at the time. Had it been because he couldn't bring himself to believe the accusations leveled at a fellow Thyatian? The Traladarans had always resented the coming of their Thyatian lords, but over time that attitude had softened somewhat. Serrah herself had been the daughter of mixed parentage. He dismounted and handed Valen's reins to the stableboy. As he approached the front door to the inn, he saw a small girl in tattered rags shivering near the entrance. "Please, noble sir, a few coins for a room? It's sure to snow again tonight, and I have no home to shelter me." Alexius hesitated at the door. The girl could be no older than fifteen, and if she had nowhere to go, the snows would be the least of her worries. Specularum was a fair-sized city, and the nearest public shelter was a good distance away. She would be easy prey for the dangerous men that haunted the streets at night. He opened his purse and counted out eight silver cronas. Handing them to her, he said, "This will get you a room for the night. There is an inn three blocks from here. Be careful, and stay within the torchlight. If you hurry, you can be there in a minute or two." "Oh, thank you, sir! Thank you!" "What are you doing here, anyway? You said you have no home, but surely the home you did have wasn't around here." "No, sir. I lived in the Old Quarter, but when my mother died I had no one left. Our home was taken by a man we owed money to. He wanted to take me with him, but I was afraid of him and ran away. I wanted to ask the innkeeper for work, but I'm not permitted inside to see him." She plucked at her rags. "I know I'm not a noble girl, but I'm not what they said I am, either!" Her eyes flashed with a spark of anger. "I want to work, but I won't sell myself, I promise that! I am a good daughter of the Church, Sir Knight!" "I believe you," he said. "How long have you been standing out here?" "I went in a few minutes ago, but the guard wouldn't let me stay inside, even to warm myself. They made me leave, and then I saw you approaching." "I see. What is your name?" "Lucinda, Sir Knight." He nodded. "I will escort you to the inn I mentioned." He removed his cloak and wrapped it around the girl. He walked with her back to the stables and summoned the stableboy. The boy hurried to bring Valen out to the knight. Alexius helped her to mount. "Sir Knight, why are you doing this for me?" she asked in a hestitant voice. "I'm only a poor homeless girl." "A knight's duty begins with charity," he answered. He said no more until they reached the Golden Rain Inn. He helped her dismount, and threw open the door to the inn. Inside the inn, chaos reigned. Alexius ducked underneath a chair that flew across the room. Shielding Lucinda with his armored body, he pulled the door closed to get her out of the cold. A burly man swung another chair in a wide circle, very near to the entrance where the knight stood. Alexius grabbed the chair by a leg just as the man was about to smash it over another man's unsuspecting back. The attacker turned to glare at him, raising a fist to swing. Then he caught sight of Alexius' armor and crest, and faltered in his attack. A few other patrons also noticed the knight standing in the door, but some either didn't notice or had drank too much ale to care. A fat man with glazed eyes threw a punch, which Alexius easily sidestepped. The fat man staggered and fell to the beer-soaked floor. Alexius turned back to Lucinda. "Apparently this inn has changed somewhat since I was here last." "It's alright," she replied. "I'll be fine here, as long as I can find the innkeeper and pay for a room." Alexius pointed at the fat man on the floor, who had begun to snore. "He's right there." "Oh." They went back outside in the bitter cold. Alexius hesitated for a moment, then led Valen back to the Silver Bear. When the arrived, he helped her down from the horse, and the stableboy took charge of Valen again. Alexius led Lucinda back to the front door of the inn. "You'll come in with me, and I'll speak to the innkeeper myself. I'll pay for your room, and give you some money to buy clothes and a meal. The innkeeper is a reasonable man, and winter is a busy season. I'm sure he'll hire you, at least for the season." "You-you would do this for me?" "Yes." She hesitated. "What would you want in return for such kindness?" He turned and looked at her, his eyes meeting hers. "A promise that you won't go wandering around Specularum in rags in the dead of winter." She looked at him for a moment, and nodded. He opened the door, motioning Lucinda to go in first. "I told you already, girl, your kind isn't-" The guard stopped as he caught sight of Alexius' armor. "Sir Knight! This is an honor! I'll let Master Minicus know you are here right after I get rid of this trollop." "I'm not a trollop!" "She's with me," interrupted Alexius. The guard stared at him. Alexius returned the stare with one of his own. "If you say so, Sir, but Master Minicus doesn't like having her kind in here." "That will be enough." "Yes, Sir Knight." He took Alexius' sword, and opened the inner door, and a cheery warmth greeted them. Alexius led Lucinda inside, and motioned her to take a table near the fire. He went with her to the table, then went up to the bar alone. "I would like to speak with Master Minicus," he informed the barkeeper. The man nodded and went into the back. He came back with a portly man of about fifty years, with iron-gray hair and a wide grin. "Sir Alexius! What a pleasure it is to see you again! How has life been treating you?" "Not as well as I would like," admitted the knight. He turned and motioned toward Lucinda. "This girl was trying to get inside to ask you about work." Minicus frowned. "I run a respectable establishment, Sir Knight. I don't permit such women in my inn. There are inns more suited to that sort in the Old Quarter." "She's not looking to bed your customers. She wants to work. She says she's lost her mother and her home. She's also got nothing but rags on, and it's cold enough outside to make a frost giant shiver." "She may claim it, but that doesn't make it true. Would you risk your own reputation like that?" "Call it instinct, but I believe her. From the look of things, you could use some help. Spring will be here soon, and you'll have the caravans coming to the city. "I'll pay for a room, and some clothes for the girl. Quarter her with your own girls. They'll be able to tell if she's telling the truth." Minicus looked dubious, but then nodded. "As you wish, Sir Knight. Shall you need a double room for the night?" Alexius shook his head. "Let her eat a meal, then she can start working. I'll pay for the food." "Very well. What will you be eating?" The food was excellent, and Lucinda barely spoke as she wolfed down her meal. Alexius noticed several of the inn's patrons eyeing the girl with disdain. One man made a lewd suggestion, loud enough to carry through the common room. Lucinda froze in the middle of chewing, her eyes darting about the room. Alexius stood up, and the room went silent. "It appears that at least one of your customers lacks manners, Minicus." He glared at the offending man, who squirmed in his chair under the unrelenting gaze. "I suppose he is not aware that you do not permit that sort of woman to enter your inn. Since she is here, she obviously isn't that sort of woman. Therefore his remarks would be considered a gross insult to this young woman's honor. Since I have taken it upon myself to assist her in a time of need, it falls to me to defend that honor, and I shall discharge my knightly duty in every way necessary. Have I made myself clear?" The man's head bobbed up and down several times, and a thin sheen of sweat formed on his brow. Alexius nodded. "Good. Let that be the end of it." He resumed his seat and continued eating. Lucinda looked at him with apprehension. "Would you really have fought him?" "Him? No. He is a Court Lord, a minor nobleman, which means he is bound by the codes of honor that all nobles must respect. But he's no fighter, and challenging him would make me look like a bully. he doesn't know that, and I'm not about to enlighten him." After the meal, Minicus approached their table and took Lucinda to the back of the inn. She came out a short time later, wearing a serving girl's dress and a smile that reflected the firelight. Her brown hair was combed and still damp from being washed, and her face was clean. "I don't know how to thank you, Sir Alexius. You've been so wonderful to me." "Just remember what I told you." "I will," she promised. "Now I have to go help the cook. I'll see you in the morning?" He nodded, and she smiled again. Minicus ordered her back to the kitchen, and she hurried off. Minicus sat down with Alexius, a rueful grin on his face. "I don't know where you get those instincts, but they look to have been right on the mark. My wife and my eldest daughter took a shine to her right away. I've never seen anyone so excited about scrubbing floors before." Alexius smiled. "I'm glad to hear it. I'll be taking my room, then. I'll be up early. I'd like my armor polished by the time I finish breakfast. Also, I'm expecting a message from the High Palace tonight. Have the messenger brought to my room." "Of course, Sir Knight," replied the innkeeper. "If you're satisfied, then, I'll have my daughter show you to your room." "Thank you, Minicus." "The honor is mine, old friend." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:59:46 -0700 (MST) From: John Hare Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - MMB Try using a news reader to view the MMB. It goes much quicker than using the website. > Yeah...I've gone to check it out a number of times, and > each time I wanted to scream within five minutes flat, > for the sheer S_L_O_W_N_E_S_S of the thing. I know I'm > missing out on a lot, probably, but i don't have the > time. They should fix that. John Hare "If death is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." -Solomon Short _A Season for Slaughter_ John Hare *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:39:11 -0000 From: "Fiachra O Muiri" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hells Ledbalfs... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE0B79.5E3DA840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of accelerators... =20 We had a party of pretty high level charcters ( after 5 years of = realtime with the same characters the tend to get to high levels), whose = main Arch Mage devised a new Delayed Blast Fireball spell. =20 This created first a thick 'cocoon' of lead then a delayed fireball = 'gem' inside. =20 The lead would disapper one second before the fireball would go off. =20 Our DM ruled that the accelerator could fire these lead balls (the lead = prevented the magic nature of the fireball from affecting the accelator = (they can fire magical objects)). =20 These were pretty effective against opposing ships. =20 Then the Arch Mage devised a way of attaching the Lead Enacased Delayed = Balst Fireball (LEDBalF) to helmseekers and the rest was mayhem. The = whole thing was exceptionally costly. But after 5 years we had = accumulated a pile of cash :) . =20 This obviously worked in our campaign. I was wondering... how much would = a it cost to outfit a ship with 20 'Hells Ledbalfs' (Helm Seeking Lead = Encased Delayed Blast Fireballs) and an accelerator? =20 Also we never used one in the flow. =20 What would happen if we did? =20 Hunter. =20 "A man should never listen to reason, reason enslaves all whose minds = are not strong enough to master her." J. B. Shaw. - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE0B79.5E3DA840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of = accelerators...
 
We had a party of pretty high level = charcters (=20 after 5 years of realtime with the same characters the tend to get to = high=20 levels), whose main Arch Mage devised a new Delayed Blast Fireball=20 spell.
 
This created first a thick 'cocoon' = of lead then=20 a delayed fireball 'gem' inside.
 
The lead would disapper one second = before the=20 fireball would go off.
 
Our DM ruled that the accelerator = could fire=20 these lead balls (the lead prevented the magic nature of the fireball = from=20 affecting the accelator (they can fire magical objects)).
 
These were pretty effective against opposing=20 ships.
 
Then the Arch Mage devised a way of attaching the = Lead=20 Enacased Delayed Balst Fireball (LEDBalF) to helmseekers and the rest = was=20 mayhem. The whole thing was exceptionally costly. But after 5 years we = had=20 accumulated a pile of cash :) .
 
This obviously worked in our campaign. I was = wondering... how=20 much would a it cost to outfit a ship with 20 'Hells Ledbalfs' (Helm = Seeking=20 Lead Encased Delayed Blast Fireballs) and an accelerator?
 
Also we never used one in the flow.
 
What would happen if we did?
 
Hunter.
 
"A man should never listen to reason, reason = enslaves all=20 whose minds are not strong enough to master her." J. B.=20 Shaw.
- ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE0B79.5E3DA840-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:38:35 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Hey all, Quick question: Does anyone have info on (or a URL for) price adjustments for Hule? What about currency exchange? Thanks, Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:55:17 -0800 From: "Jared Noble" Subject: [MYSTARA] - D&D MUSH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BE0B51.B5529FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a D&D/AD&D MUSH out there? And if not...are there any people who are interested in helping make one? I know there are plenty of Pern, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms based MUSHs but I'm more interested in one based on Mystara and the original D&D rules. To be honest...if a lot of us hard core Mystara fans got together, we could probably create a truly authentic and fantastic MUSH. Anyone interested please, email me. I think I'm going to give it a try if there are enough people interested. Jace - ------=_NextPart_000_01BE0B51.B5529FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is there a D&D/AD&D MUSH out = there? And if not...are there any people who are interested in helping = make one?

I know there are plenty of Pern, Dragonlance, and = Forgotten Realms based MUSHs but I'm more interested in one based on = Mystara and the original D&D rules.

To be honest...if a lot = of us hard core Mystara fans got together, we could probably create a = truly authentic and fantastic MUSH.

Anyone interested please, = email me. I think I'm going to give it a try if there are enough people = interested.

Jace


- ------=_NextPart_000_01BE0B51.B5529FA0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:21:49 +0100 From: Alvin Gellert Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D MUSH At 19:55 08-11-98 -0800, you wrote: > > Is there a D&D/AD&D MUSH out there? And if not...are there any people who are > interested in helping make one? > > I know there are plenty of Pern, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms based > MUSHs but I'm more interested in one based on Mystara and the original D&D > rules. > > To be honest...if a lot of us hard core Mystara fans got together, we could > probably create a truly authentic and fantastic MUSH. > > Anyone interested please, email me. I think I'm going to give it a try if > there are enough people interested. > > Jace > > > > As far as I know, there are no MUD's/MUSH'es out there based on D&D or AD&D. > I might be wrong, of course. Btw, Hi all. Started subscribing on MML yesterday, so I will probably need a few days to get into the threads before I start writing much. I am a 26 year old Dane, who has run a campaign in Mystara, my favourite campaign world, for almost 7 years now. We use another game system, Visual Reality, for it, but the world is the very same (with a few changes, of course). Alvin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #704 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Tuesday, November 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 705 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) [MYSTARA] - H e l p !! Re: [MYSTARA] - H e l p !! Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic... ) [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 07:27:40 +0100 From: Alvin Gellert Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics At 17:38 08-11-98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey all, > >Quick question: > >Does anyone have info on (or a URL for) price adjustments for Hule? What >about currency exchange? > >Thanks, > >Jenn I have never seen any info on it anywhere on the net, but I have had players there once. I have always seen Hule as a country who is self-supporting, which means they have little contact with outsiders. Also thinking about their religion and government, I see Hule as a bad place to be a foreigner. Not that you will be attacked, but they will cheat you whenever they can. I used the basic price list, but added 100% to the base price. If the players haggled well, they could get the price as low as 50% above the standard price list. Quite fun to see the players haggle as best they can, in order to be able to buy what they want, as they rarely bring enough money. As for currency exchange, I again thought of a country where outsiders are considered infidels, and how the Master preaches enmity towards other nations. So few people in Hule would have much use for other countries currency. Therefore I exchange at the rate of 3 foreign coins to 1 hulean coin. Again, if the characters haggled well, they could get a little better exchange rate, but not much. I hope you can use any of those answers. Alvin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 07:55:42 +0100 From: Alvin Gellert Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics At 17:38 08-11-98 -0800, you wrote: >Hey all, > >Quick question: > >Does anyone have info on (or a URL for) price adjustments for Hule? What >about currency exchange? Err, seems I was a bit too hasty when I said I did not know of an URL that had info on currency exchange. http://members.tripod.com/~mktriton/1015Econ.html This page is quite impressive, and it includes an exchange fee. Alvin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:14:04 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > One comment about proposed contents of a Glantrian wizard's tower: > > You should not assume that such a wizard is a hermit or a recluse. > Instead of apprentices, his family (spouse/lover and children) probably > live in the tower. There should also be a good number of servants > (zero level) and guards (fighters, some of significant level and power). > Apprentices would either live and work among the servants or walk > to the tower each day from their own dwelling places in a nearby > village. Maybe there are rooms for the family, but these rooms are almost unused, as the wizard's relatives spend most part of their time in Glantri City, and the wizard himself comes to the tower only for experiments or spell research, as there are less distraction then in the capitol. Giampaolo Agosta *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:45:51 EST From: GlobalFrog@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Why does the tower have to be in Glantri city? The DOORWAY to the tower may exist there...with a shell of a tower to fool any thieves or enemies...but why not have the tower 100 k away in some "safe" refuge? A "simple" gate spell on the door would send anyone entering through it to the interior of the real tower and still leave the wizard safe from any catastrophic events (natural or unnatural) in the city itself. Nothing like the enterprising theif landing on the roof of the tower...picking the lock to the observatory door and stumbling into a 30' or 40' drop with no way of cushioning the fall. Or the adventure party attempting a stealthy approach through an upper window only to find that there is nothing but illisionary floor and a loooooong first step awaiting them. :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:55:03 +0100 (MET) From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 GlobalFrog@aol.com wrote: > Why does the tower have to be in Glantri city? Glantrian noble wizard always have a tower in their domain. As they often have to stay in Glantri for House of Lords activity and social reasons, they tend to have mansions also in Gantri City Giampaolo Agosta > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:48:13 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics Very interesting that you should ask this! While we haven't tackled Hule yet, over on the MMB, we have begun trying to figure out base prices for tavern items and other basic items. We've come up with an Ochalean tavern, Helskir (seafood), and Kastelios (Greek). You really should check it out! I could post the Helskir price list to whet your appetite...as soon as I finish correcting it... Anyway, it started as a discussion of just what a "basic" price might be and what sort of economic adjustments would have to be made for different areas. Jennifer Favia wrote: > Hey all, > > Quick question: > > Does anyone have info on (or a URL for) price adjustments for Hule? What > about currency exchange? > > Thanks, > > Jenn > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:56:01 -0500 From: Jdaly Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Agathokles wrote: > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 GlobalFrog@aol.com wrote: > > > Why does the tower have to be in Glantri city? > > Glantrian noble wizard always have a tower in their domain. As they often > have to stay in Glantri for House of Lords activity and social reasons, > they tend to have mansions also in Gantri City Heck, I think he had a good suggestion though. What about a doorway to a hidden tower, but around the doorway is the illusion of a great mansion! > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:05:13 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: [MYSTARA] - H e l p !! [This is being forwarded to the list by the Admin. It was rejected originally due to the word H e l p in the subject header, which Majordomo took to be a system request. So I spaced it out to fool it and sent it along to the list.] > Hello everyone: > I´m new in the DM business, but i don´t know anything from the history > of the Mystara campaign (I only have the karameikos box 2500). Can > somebody please tell me where can i find some of the history of every > realm of Mystara. Also I need maps. Is there any place on the net where > i can find those things? > thanks. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:12:30 -0700 From: "Leroy Van Camp III" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - H e l p !! [This is being forwarded to the list by the Admin. It was rejected originally due to the word H e l p in the subject header, which Majordomo took to be a system request. So I spaced it out to fool it and sent it along to the list.] Whoops. Here is the name and address of the original sender. "Mauricio Pena" > Hello everyone: > I´m new in the DM business, but i don´t know anything from the history > of the Mystara campaign (I only have the karameikos box 2500). Can > somebody please tell me where can i find some of the history of every > realm of Mystara. Also I need maps. Is there any place on the net where > i can find those things? > thanks. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:03:43 EST From: GlobalFrog@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) The whole question of "why does it need to be in Glantri city" was not meant to question the location of the entrance...only to make everyone think about possible alternates to the established "protocol" of having your tower in one of the cities of Mystara that has a huge target placed over it...as I indicated before...it LOOKS like you do have a tower in Glantri city...and being that there is always magic going on in said city it wouldn't suprise anyone if the doorway radiated some kind of magic (although it would be very poor manners for your guests to start popping off detection spells of any kind to try to discover what kind of magic while visiting you...some things are too impolite even for a powerful mage :) ). The appearance of a tower in the city should appease those who look for status in such a thing and also serve to hide the fact that the wizards actual tower of residence is not physically in the city itself...only the doorway to it is...think of all the fun that you can have with a selective teleport spell rather than a gate...one that leaves all metal behind in the faux towers foyer so that no massively armed knights on a quest can come in and interrupt your latest social gathering. They teleport through and lo...they have no armor, weapons, belt buckles, fillings in their teeth, etc. The point to it all is...anything can go in a city where the mystical is commonplace and has taken the place of "technology" for most everyday things that we would take for granted...lets just stretch it a little more. :) Frog (ribbit...a result of a wizards machinations) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:06:10 -0800 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams > He (or she) should be naked or wearing a thin robe as the > caster must not be distracted by any material discomforts. I'd be a lot less comfortable naked in a drafty stone tower! Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:18:23 -0800 From: "Harvey, MichaelX" Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic... ) On Monday, November 09, 1998 3:56 AM, Jdaly [SMTP:jdaly@friend.ly.net] wrote: > > Heck, I think he had a good suggestion though. What about a doorway > to a hidden tower, but around the doorway is the illusion of a great > mansion! Another interesting twist is if the tower is only an illusion or shell used as a status symbol (every wizard needs an impressive glowing 400' tower). The doorway actually leads to a cozy wattle-and-daub cottage near a peaceful hidden lake. Much more comfortable and practical to live in! Of course you don't want just anyone to walk through the portal. The tower might lead to an interdimensional maze with a hundred-and-one magical doors, leading to a hundred unpleasant fates... but only one leads to the wizard's true abode. The true abode might even be in another dimension, or on the moon, for added security. Mike *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:39:12 EST From: Demmero@aol.com Subject: [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov A few folks on the list have mentioned the Eye of Traldar module lately, so I thought I'd throw out the name "Sverdlov" and see if I get any reactions. In Eye of Traldar, this wizard is described as the Black Eagle Baron's new (at the time) Court Mage. Being a big Bargle fan, I immediately wrote in to Bruce Heard and his DRAGON column and asked what the story was. Bruce replied that Bargle was away on a secret mission to Hule and would be back soon enough (and this proved true). Well, I'm dusting ol' Sverd off for use in the Halag campaign I'm currently running. The players will soon be hearing those stale old "Bargle has been spotted near the Blight Swamp" rumors, but in fact the mysterious figure in the dark hooded robe will be Sverdlov, returned to Karameikos to make a power play of his own. By impersonating Bargle, he'll try to rally some of Halag's riff-raff into his own personal army of agents and mercenaries, keeping the heroes busy.... Has anyone on the list ever used Sverdlov in a capacity beyond Eye of Traldar? If so, I'd be interested in hearing any tales.... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:41:12 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics At 17.38 08/11/98 PST, you wrote: >Does anyone have info on (or a URL for) price adjustments for Hule? What >about currency exchange? There's my stuff in 1015 Net-Almanac, it should also be available at Shawn's site. Currency Exchange Rate Hule 15% Price Adjustment Azurun Hule C Grain -4, Cloth -2, Gems -1, Glassware -1; Red Steel +3, Common Metals +2, Salt +1, Dyes +2, Silk +1 It's not much, but I hope to write more in next Almanac. BTW: there's also a problem with Hule and all the SC concerning the coinage, because of the use of Red Steels coins. In the Princess Ark chapter about Slagovich, Bruce Heard explained the different value of standard (gold, silver...) pieces and red steel ones in the SC. Unfortunately that part was omitted in the AD&D conversion, so I don't know if it should be considered... er.. insert here a 5-letter word starting with "c"... :-) ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:30:32 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) At 10.14 09/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >Maybe there are rooms for the family, but these rooms are almost unused, >as the wizard's relatives spend most part of their time in Glantri City, >and the wizard himself comes to the tower only for experiments or spell >research, as there are less distraction then in the capitol. But here you're assuming that the owner of the tower is a noble, while I was under the impression that we were talking about a generic tower of a generic Glantrian mage. Back to the point: I don't know if a mage should have a room for his family in his tower. As always it depends, IMO, on the wizard's wealth. A wealthy wizard may have seperate building around the tower with rooms for his family and maybe also for himself, leaving all the tower for his workshop. Maybe he has just an hammock (mundane or magical) in his tower for short naps between experiments. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:54:02 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) In a message dated 1998-11-09 04:34:09 Eastern Standard Time, piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it writes: > Maybe there are rooms for the family, but these rooms are almost unused, > as the wizard's relatives spend most part of their time in Glantri City, > and the wizard himself comes to the tower only for experiments or spell > research, as there are less distraction then in the capitol. Again, that depends on the wizard in question. I can think of a few that actually prefer "home schooling" for their wizardly children -- and of course their children who lack such talent have no reason to want to live in Glantri City. In Glantri, generalizations about wizards are NOT to be trusted -- there is usually a wizard somewhere in that country for whom that generalization does not apply. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:21:42 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics >Very interesting that you should ask this! While we haven't tackled Hule yet, Well, I guess I'll beat you to the punch ;-) >over on the MMB, we have begun trying to figure out base prices for tavern >items and other basic items. Sounds very interesting!--you should post it here. Thanks Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:29:09 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics >Azurun Hule C Grain -4, Cloth -2, Gems -1, Glassware -1; >Red Steel +3, Common Metals +2, Salt +1, Dyes +2, Silk +1 > >It's not much, but I hope to write more in next Almanac. Thank you...Should you think any more on this, I'd really appreciate if you'd drop me a line. Thanks in advance! insert here a 5-letter word >starting with "c"... :-) I'll just close my eyes, my ears, my mouth here...;-)) Thanks again, Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:25:06 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) The point to it all is...anything can go in a city where >the mystical is commonplace and has taken the place of "technology" for most >everyday things that we would take for granted...lets just stretch it a >little more. :) Hey, I like that! Another interesting (and subversive;-) possibility for use of this in G.C.: it's a great way to hide a rougue cleric or a shrine. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:31:31 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hulean Economics >http://members.tripod.com/~mktriton/1015Econ.html > >This page is quite impressive, and it includes an exchange fee. > Thanks! And, BTW, I liked the 3-to-1 ratio (and the idea about 100% markup)--wouldn't the Darokinians just *scream*! Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:27:41 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) >> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 GlobalFrog@aol.com wrote: >> >> > Why does the tower have to be in Glantri city? It doesn't ... unless the mage in question is a Radiance-user, or is seriously investigating the NoS. If so, being close to the Nucleus' location is a must. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:59:50 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven >> Ilya: > >> The Ilya Pixies are mentioned in B10 Dark Nights Terror. They >> live on an island in the middle of the Lake of Lost Dreams. Actually, the pixies didn't live on the island, but in the surrounding forests. The Ilya from the module had traveled to the (cursed) island in violation of an old Vyalia/pixie taboo, so the Vyalia elves recruit PCs to go there and investigate why their "little cousins" didn't return. The bulk of the Ilya tribe are presumably still home in their native woods, when the B10 adventure takes place. >> However, that island is cursed. Anyone living there are slowly >> changed toward chaotic (Evil) alignment. The curse can be lifted >> by breaking a magical mirror inside a large temple or palace in >> the center of the island. However, that mirror is guarded by >> skeletons (shiver!). It was just a teensy little chapel, actually. You might be confusing the LoLD chapel with the big ruined temple from the Hutaaka valley. (Quibble, quibble....) ;-) >What caused this curse to fall over the Island ? Should those pixies >be evil aligned too ? I've been wondering about the exact nature of >the curse and i've come with the following idea. There could be no >curse but a madness which fell over those who dared to sleep on >the island and were later visited by its faerie denizens. Those >mortals who didn't pay attention to the elders advice and spent >the night on it would be invited by the silvan dwellers to go >with them and eat, drink and dance until dawn. To find this >same morning they had lost their interest on everything that >truly mattered to them before, wishing nothing but returning >back to the lands of faerie. What do you think about it ? I think that's a nifty idea. The curse's origin is never explained in B10, but it affects elves and pixies (i.e. "fairy races") a lot sooner than other races. Perhaps there's some "wild fey" energy that permeates the island, or the mirror has had a corrupting influence on the nature-magics to which elves and fairy folk are intimately connected. I've also come up with an alternative backstory for the LoLD temple, for my Hollow Moon project. Given that the architecture of the chapel, as depicted in B10's artwork, is neither elvish/Haven nor Traladaran -- if anything, it looks like a crypt you'd find behind a Gothic cathedral -- I opted to make both chapel and mirror the creations of some creepy Gothic-style monsters (Ostegos, aka "death demons") from Laterre, who'd followed the Averoignese and Klantyrans to Mystara. The notion of a cursed mirror which corrupts the minds of those who come near it seems very much in keeping with Clark Ashton Smith's work, to me; and I'd recommend for those characters who are corrupted by its influence to adopt a "Laterran" style of villainy: mages turn into sinister figures obsessed with necromancy, priests become rabidly intolerant Inquisitor-types, fighters become bullyish brutes, etc. Elves and pixies, in this scenario, would "turn" so early, because Laterran "fey folk" are feral, uncaring creatures (check out CAS's "The Satyr"), with no respect for or comprehension of human morality. The Ostegos will be making an appearance rather late in my HM posts -- they're one of the most recent arrivals in the setting -- but I'll get around to them eventually, on the MMB. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:35:51 EST From: GlobalFrog@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's tower (was Just for a change in topic...) Hmm...what other items would a wizards tower have? How about a feather fall and a reverse feather fall for "elevators"? Maybe he could have a lovely little seat on a flying carpet to shuttle himself around town...his own limo. Bowls and dishes that heated food inside them...and that self cleaned. A broom that cleans the place by itself. Every room with a window view (one way gates to other places...2 dimensional so they fit on the wall without leaving anyone on the other side of the wall any wiser). Heated and cooled running water, an actual indoor bathroom facility (maybe a caged and charmed slime or pudding for a garbage/sewage disposal system). Entertainment center complete with large crystal ball with the image projected in 3-d via an illusion spell...helmet that combines telepathy with illusionary projection to literally "show" what you are thinking (great for an interrogation device...as soon as they think of the answer it shows up in full color). Undead servants (the skeleton butler and zombie maid?) Lighted rooms that darken or lighten upon command. Really, the sky is the limit. Let yourself go wild with it. As you all can tell I LOVE the possibilities in Glantri (even tho I am a dwarf at heart). Frog *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #705 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Wednesday, November 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 706 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hells LEDBlaFs. RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest Chapter 4 Re: [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest Chapter 4 [MYSTARA] - Darokinian NPCs Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian NPCs (Correction) Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 Re: [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov [MYSTARA] - Vistani Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:38:52 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hells LEDBlaFs. On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:39:11 -0000 Fiachra O Muiri wrote: <> Eh eh.. I doubt many here will understand what you're talking about.. but let's hear anyway.. <> I know, I KNOW.. After nearly 5 years of real time play my PCs have gone from level 6 to average level 26 (some are even 30th level, average 3 millions Xp!). But we still enjoy playing and I am proud to say that I am able to challenge my players with each new adventure.. ;) << whose main Arch Mage devised a new Delayed Blast Fireball spell. This created first a thick 'cocoon' of lead then a delayed fireball 'gem' inside. The lead would disapper one second before the fireball would go off. Our DM ruled that the accelerator could fire these lead balls (the lead prevented the magic nature of the fireball from affecting the accelator (they can fire magical objects)).>> Uhmm.. I think your DM has been a bit generous here, for even though the altered spell creates a shell around the Delayed Fireball rock, it is still a MAGICAL shell.. anyway, it's obviously a question on PoV.. <> I have no doubts on this! :) For those of you who still haven't figured what we're talking about.. well, it's Spelljammer :) << Then the Arch Mage devised a way of attaching the Lead Enacased Delayed Blast Fireball (LEDBlaF) to helmseekers and the rest was mayhem. The whole thing was exceptionally costly. But after 5 years we had accumulated a pile of cash :) .>> Wait wait. You mean you actually SOLD these powered Helmseekers?? How could you manage to render the LEDDBalF permanent? I mean, the DBF has a programmed time before it explodes, sure, but it cannot go beyond 99 rounds.. and a transaction actually takes more to develop.. also, how could you set the explosion time? You don't know exactly WHEN the helmseeker will hit.. I don't understand how you managed to do this, really.. <> Too much.. ;) Well, it depends on the cost of the "permanent" LEDBalF (something I haven't understood really well, sorry). The accelerator's cost on the common market is 45,000 gp. Also, note that the Accelerator's magic derives directly from a Spelljamming helm: it doesn't function if not placed on a ship powered by a spelljamming device. It also decreases the ship's SR by one point and its firing range is 6 space hexes. Give its properties, I don't think Mystaraspace has got Accelerators. <> Better not to try, Hunter. You wouldn't like it, plainly speaking.. The rule is that when an explosion takes place in the Flow, it detonates from the source of the explosion. If the source is a spellcaster, then it's centered on the spellcaster and amplified. However.. DBF is a tricky spell, ya know. It could even work properly in the phologiston.. nahh, I'm kidding.. ;) Probably it would explode where it lies, but lashing out a firewave that returns back to the caster who created the DBF: yes, I think this is what could happen. DM's rule (yeah! ;)), as usual.. DM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:11:33 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Wizard's Tower/Pentagrams On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Harvey, MichaelX wrote: > > He (or she) should be naked or wearing a thin robe as the > > caster must not be distracted by any material discomforts. > > I'd be a lot less comfortable naked in a drafty stone tower! Hehe. Me too, :) Then again, alot of Glantrian mages seem to have central heating. (powered by fire elementals, naturally). I got these ideas from some books on occultism. They state that a light robe can be worn if the caster is feeling uncomfortable about nudity. Okay, feelows, im not crazy, I just read all this weird stuff :) Håvard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:55:57 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest Chapter 4 Sorry I took so long in this reply Glen, but I wanted to let you know that this was another great installment! Great work! (BTW, I take we're going to see more of Lucinda in the future?) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:46:55 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov IMC (and IMPBEM) I use Sverdlov as Bargle's apprentice. One evil wizard is bad, but two are worse... :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:56:45 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest Chapter 4 >Sorry I took so long in this reply Glen, but I wanted >to let you know that this was another great >installment! Great work! (BTW, I take we're going to see more of Lucinda >in the future?) > Well...it is possible. I'll have to check the WotI book on how to achieve immortality on the Path of the Epic Hero again to be sure. (wink, wink) Glad you like it! Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:17:12 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian NPCs With all the talk lately about Darokin (Sixth Avenue et. al.), I though it might be interesting to unearth some of my Darokinian NPCs. So I did! The results are posted on my page--I would post them here directly, but unfortunately, Webtv won't upload or cut-and-paste (you guys know the story;-)... So, the direct URL is: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/darokin npcs.html **Please sign the guestbook if you haven't already; I like to know who's been there! Enjoy! Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:47:08 +0100 From: Fabrizio Paoli Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. At 12.23 06/11/98 -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > The below is an overview of Thyatis the City Well done, just one comment: "Thyatis the City" sounds a little weird to me. Moreover I seem to recall that Thyatians refer to their capital simply as "Thyatis", don't they? ************** Fabrizio Paoli brizio@gdr.net http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560 ************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:47:51 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. > > Well done, just one comment: "Thyatis the City" sounds a little weird to > me. Moreover I seem to recall that Thyatians refer to their capital simply > as "Thyatis", don't they? > Re the first one: I suppose I could call it Thyatopolis, but that might be even more confusing. Re the second one: Yes, that's the "canon" version. I do think a distinction between Thyatis the City and Thyatis the Empire (or, if you prefer, the City of Thyatis and the Empire of Thyatis) is useful at least for discriptive purposes. By refering to "Thyatis the City" rather than "Thyatis City" (or "the City of Thyatis") I do keep some sense of the "canon" preference for refering to it in the same way ("Thyatis" being the term for both the city and the empire as a whole). "Thyatis the City" may sound a little wierd, but IMO it is potentially less confusing than the alternative. In addition, since I frequently use "the City" (not "the city," which would be a reference to any generic city) as shorthand, all in all I think it works fairly well. Plus, to a large degree I'm taking my inspiration (where "inspiration"="virtual plagarism") from Harry Turtledove's Videssos books. If you're unfamiliar with them, the Videssos books are set in a fantasy setting, centered on the events/affairs of the "Empire of Videssos", the capital of which is "Videssos the City." Since many of these events are "inspired" by IRL ByzantinoRoman history, I feel little shame in adopting Turtledove's usages for "my" Thyatis. I suppose I *could* retroactively rename the capital "Thyatopolis", but I'm not sure that will be well liked, either. Their is also a sense of the exotic/different mindset that I am trying (perhaps weakly) to infuse the materiel with, while still keeping it broadly understandable. Thus their are the "odd" titles for Thyatian ministers (rather than simple "Minister of War" and the like), "wierd" names for units, etc. Too often fantasy cultures are just moderns armed with swords rather than rifles, using fireballs rather than grenade launchers, and who's government officials are refered to as "Chancellors" rather than "President" and who's assemblys are refered to as "Councils" rather than "Congresses" or "House of Commons" (or "lords"). So, if "Thyatis the City" sounds wierd, IMO that isn't so bad a thing. What I'm trying to achieve is a sense that Thyatis is *different*, that it is set apart from other nations, and unique in and of itself. I was (and remain) worried that what I've done isn't outlandish enough; but I'm trying to achieve a rough balance/compromise between outlandish/wierd and understandable/usable. After all, their is no reason to make something so exotic no one can understand it, and thus no one will find it useful (which is why I should post better definitions for some of the terms used for the government officials soon). "Thyatis the City" has an odd ring to it, but I doubt anyone misunderstood what I was refering to. I hope not, anyhow. Btw, back to one point above: It is not my opinion that *only* Thyatis should seem different, unique, and set apart from other nations. Each Mystaran nation should, IMO, seem that way. But, from what I gather, many if not most people look on the "canon" Thyatis as too bland, too close a copy of Rome, and thus rather boring and *not* unique, whereas other Mystaran nations have (in their opinion, and to some degree mine, if I went by only the "canon" descriptions) unique characters already. But, that said, I'd be happy to see any effort to add rich flavor and uniqueness to any of the other Mystaran nations. Yes, even Karameikos. It just so happens that the Thyatis thing is "my baby" so to speak, and I don't have the time to even work on all the things I'd like to do with regard to it (I'm babbling way off topic now: point of the above two paragraphs is that I for one would like to see more activity along the lines of detailing Mystaran nations and making them unique and, yes "wierd"). Anyhow, that's probably a longer answer than you wanted, Fabrizio, but I thought they were good questions so I figured I owed a detailed answer to them, and a full explanation of the thinking behind my choice of terminology. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:14 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian NPCs (Correction) >So, the direct URL is: >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/darokin >npcs.html Okay, that messed up--sorry all!! http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/darokinnpcs.html Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:43:28 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The City. >(I'm babbling way off topic now No!!!! :-)) >I for one would like to see more activity along the >lines of detailing Mystaran nations and making them unique and, yes >"weird"). I agree; That's what I'm doing with Hule, anyway ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:21:22 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Jennifer Favia wrote: > > >> This is great stuff, Time > > (you see, this was not a typo, everyone, but me accidentally revealing > Tim's secret identity--the incarnation of the Sphere of Time itself. Now > you know how he knows so much about Blackmoor! :-) Been feeling like the Sphere of Confusion here and you can never find the Sphere of Time when you need it ;> > >Thanks for that comment. I rather liked that visual > myself. As to the > >universal image, do you mean of Ilneval sort of > setting things in motion as > >a test? > > I meant, is there a similar image in other myth cycles, so you think, of > Thanatos smiling at the destruction, or of ____ (fill in the appropriate > bad guy;-) You know. The Silent Smile might not be a bad symbol for Ilneval. Or the Amused Torturer :) > >I'm going to see what exactly having Nithia wiped from > >the world means when you attempt to find information > on it. ;> > > I used to think that it was an absolute...then I strted > seeing references to it in other works (adventurers > finding pyramids; people saying stuff like "It belongs > to an ancient people called the Nithians, about whom we > know next to nothing," etc.). So now I'm not so sure > how I want to use it IMC...I wonder what other olks > have done with this. Comments? The way I plan to approach it (when I get caught up again and can devote some time to it) is that the word Nithia doesn't exist. There is a complete hole in history concerning it. Any ruins found seem to connect to nothing. In fact, if I make the Ylari the descendents of the survivors of Nithia, I'm thinking of Ylari to be the word for 'empty, no history, or void'. That would make Ylaruam translate into "the land with no past". I wonder what kind of faith would grow from a people that believe in no past. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:43:50 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Geoff Gander wrote: > > Galwylin wrote: > > >Actually, its the IoD, Bellissaria, Alphatia, and Ochalea. That is when > >the all islands came into existance but Ochalea plays a larger role in > >things for me so it got prominite mention. > > Interesting! What do you have planned for Ochalea, anyway? Nothing concrete yet but I'm thinking of it being the seat of power of an Eastern Empire. It will probably be combined with the Pearl Islands as the Oriental people of Mystara. I wished it wasn't so close to the Isle of Dawn though. > >The Oltec slaves that were taken to Brun also will be making > >another appearance :) > > Ethies? Or Oltec/Azcans? Ethengar most likely. I'm actually having the Azcans to materialize on Skothar (and be a modern nation). Most all of this is just random thoughts and fitting the past to met with my view of Mystara currently. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:51:56 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Tomas Sanchez wrote: > > Tim Haney wrote: > > > This is what I had started before. The Seer is the keeper of the > > Eye of Traldar. He is like the great shaman/cleric/wise man of the > > Traladara people. Of course now, his duties aren't as great as they > > once were but it was through him and the Eye that Traladara had > > remain virtually untouched by other nations for so many years. > > The Eye, besides its minor enchantments, allows the user to control > > vast numbers of people, armies and such (possibly even whole nations). > > Excuse me for having not gotten well enough your idea but doesn't > seem somewhat confronted the idea of The Seer being a sage or > diviner and The Seer as a commander ? Well, I was thinking of cultures where the wise men of tribes were also the protectors of them. Using their magics to protect their tribes. Kinda of like the druids of the Celts weren't really the leaders but they were seen as responsible for the peoples' well-being and seen as judges or seers. If he disapproves of a potential leader, that leader doesn't lead. > I believe King Halav was shown after reaching the immortality he and > his kin were not the original denizens of the lands he once ruled. > Thereafter he considered traldars all who worked for the duchy's > benefit and watched over them. At least so it was IMC. I picture Halav as a fairly new Immortal and much more connected to the decendents of his people than most. Even if they don't resemble the people they once did, he has a strong attachment to them and made preparations for their well-being. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:55:00 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA] Haven Tomas Sanchez wrote: > > My rambles on Haven : > > You'll agree with me there seem to be only one though it can > change it's location or at least be unreachable sometimes. I'd > love to know where did you read otherwise. I was thinking I had read somewhere that there was an actual city/town/village called Haven. But, my memory has never been famous for accuracy ;) - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:03:08 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 This was good. It was especially good to read a story that is set so firmly on Mystara. I like how you've sprinkled some of the things we all recognize as being Mystaran through it. And its set in Karameikos, how could it not be good? :) Just a suggestion. If you could post the whole story in a word processor file it would be great. HTML doesn't print well for me and I enjoy printing things like this out and sitting back for a good read. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:08:58 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Sverdlov Demmero@aol.com wrote: > > Has anyone on the list ever used Sverdlov in a capacity beyond Eye of > Traldar? If so, I'd be interested in hearing any tales.... I hadn't ever used him (but I did raid that adventure quite a bit). I've thought about having a humanoid army harassing trade and Darokin in western Karameikos with a high level wizard. Since that area isn't running over with civilized towns, I thought of actually setting up a hidden village of humanoids that Sverdlov is at. He seems more of an employee type mage rather than a boss. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:21:40 -0600 From: Tim Subject: [MYSTARA] - Vistani I was wondering if anyone's ever used the Vistani from Ravenloft. I always thought they'd make interesting additions to settings that gives an easy connection to Ravenloft if one wanted to use them like that. But besides that, I like them and been looking for a place to drop them into Mystara history. Perhaps the foretellers of major catastrophes. I've been thinking of tying them to Mystara by being some of the decedents from Nithia. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:17:50 +0100 From: Alvin Gellert Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History >The way I plan to approach it (when I get caught up again and can devote >some time to it) is that the word Nithia doesn't exist. There is a >complete hole in history concerning it. Any ruins found seem to connect >to nothing. In fact, if I make the Ylari the descendents of the >survivors of Nithia, I'm thinking of Ylari to be the word for 'empty, no >history, or void'. That would make Ylaruam translate into "the land >with no past". I wonder what kind of faith would grow from a people >that believe in no past. I would say that people who believe in no past, or have no past, would likely think they were created by Gods or similar beings and came into history just like that, without any history. A likely turn from there would be to think that they were that specific God's favoured servants, and that he or she created them with a specific purpose in mind. This again would lead to the more comon term of the God as a father or mother, since the people would be created as children of said deity/immortal. So all in all, I think it would result in a deeply religious nation, most likely ruled by a theocracy (the holy men, be they seers, priests or something entirely different), who has this set mission in life, and with the determination of a true zealot they do everything they can to fulfill this assignment, be it real or imagined. Another turn it could take would be the thought/theory that their God abandoned them, and sort of create, to a lesser extent, a nihilistic society, or a society of atheists who will have nothing to do with religion. Or who think they need to do above-mentioned assignment for their master before they again are his or hers favoured people. Agreed, the possibilities are many, but it would IMO be most likely to be a highly religious people one way or the other. Hopes this was of any help :) Alvin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:16:02 -0500 (EST) From: Glen Sprigg Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Quest - Chapter 4 At 04:03 AM 11/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >This was good. It was especially good to read a story that is set so >firmly on Mystara. I like how you've sprinkled some of the things we >all recognize as being Mystaran through it. And its set in Karameikos, >how could it not be good? :) > Exactly! Thanks for your comments! >Just a suggestion. If you could post the whole story in a word >processor file it would be great. HTML doesn't print well for me and I >enjoy printing things like this out and sitting back for a good read. > That would be up to Jamuga Khan, since he's currently posting the story for me. I think he's got it in DOC format at his site, but I'm not positive. Check there. The latest chapter won't be there yet. Glen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:18:37 EST From: RLaRue@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani Greetings! << I was wondering if anyone's ever used the Vistani from Ravenloft. I always thought they'd make interesting additions to settings that gives an easy connection to Ravenloft if one wanted to use them like that. But besides that, I like them and been looking for a place to drop them into Mystara history. Perhaps the foretellers of major catastrophes. I've been thinking of tying them to Mystara by being some of the decedents from Nithia. >> I once proposed a group of gypsie-like individuals that wandered across Karameikos and the sourrounding areas. Using some of my ideas, a few of Mystaros', bits of Ravenloft's Vistani and many of her own, Valerya did an excellent job of fleshing them out. If I'm not mistaken, she has it posted on her web site (which I seem to have lost the URL to). Here are my original notes on this, but you should definetely check out Jen's stuff. It's quite excellent. [Originally posted on AOL's TSR Online Mystara Message Board] >>Subject: Traladarian Gypsies From: RLaRue Does anyone know of any references to Traladarian Gypsies? I've been playing with some ideas, but I don't remember any direct mention of a gypsy-like group wandering Karameikos. Considering the native Traladarian's resemblance to Gypsies (i.e. Dress and names etc.), you would think there would be a nomadic group as well as the settled farmers. I get a picture of your typical gypsies, maybe one or two tribes, consisting of several clans. Each clan would be an extended family that travels together. Each clan would have a reputation for something different, like seers, healers, entertainers, thieves, storytellers etc. They would travel in caravans of horse drawn Vardos(sp?), with farm animals (goats, chickens, cows etc.) trailing behind. Each clan would be lead by the elders (the oldest male and female). Typically, the oldest female would be the clan's primary seer/diviner/healer. The elders would have the final say on all matters that effect the whole clan. They would arrange marriages between clans to form alliances and diffuse feuds (as well as keep the clans strong and healthy). A clan might consist of one set of grandparents, one or two of their sons, their son's families and maybe their grandson's families. Typically, only unmarried daughters would still live with their blood relatives, going to live with their new clan upon marriage. Maybe a few clans operate barges along the larger rivers, transporting goods and people for a "small fee" and acting as river traders and guides. PC's might be primarily thieves and bards, with pure fighters being rare. There would be several types of Gypsy kits for each class, providing appropriate skills and flavor. Maybe a specialty Gypsy Seer kit combining wizard and clerical divination spells and a Gypsy Healer Kit. They would play the role of bards in Karameikos, traveling from place to place, entertaining and spreading news and gossip. While in town, they would perform music, songs and dance, storytelling, fortune telling, healing, as well as do some trading. Secretly, they would act as spies for the remaining Traladarian Lords and maintain an information network between them. Being freedom loving nomads with a strong history, they would resent the current government. Many would be convinced that Traladarian people should determine their own destiny. They would feel oppressed under the often harsh rule of the new Thyatian lords. Being generally a peaceful group, they would seek to embarrass these lords instead of hurt or kill, but never at the expense of their Traladarian brothers and sisters. Truly sinister acts by a Thyatian lord might bring serious retaliation and ultimaetly a Gypsy Curse. Removed only if he undoes whatever he did to earn their anger. Obviously, they would be seen differently be different people. Those of Traladarian decent would see them at best as heroes and at worst as troublemakers. Those of Thyatian decent would see them as lawless thieves and con artists. The new mixed blood Karameikans might see them as a colorful remnant of the past, or dangerous and close-minded upstarts trying to destroy the new order. The church of Traladar would turn a blind eye to their various unsavory actions, while the Church of Karameikos and the Order of the Griffin would actively discriminate against them. Their relationship with the Cult of Halaav would be vague. While they might agree with the belief that King Halaav will one day return to raise the Traladarian people to new heights, they would disagree that King Stephen, a Thyatian conqueror, is Halaav reborn. Local elves might see them as kindred spirits, ignoring their less honorable tendencies and enjoying their love of life and freedom. Officially citizens, many Thyatian Lords might barely tolerate them in their lands, and from time to time declare them outlaws and thieves for real or imagined crimes. Since most people know little about them, they might mistake them as a single group, instead of several independent clans. So the actions of one clan might cause trouble for the others. In many cases, problems occurring after a visit from gypsies are blamed on them, regardless of their guilt. For example, a farmer's cow dies the day after a gypsy caravan passes through town. Superstitious townsfolk may blame the sudden death on a gypsy curse. Several clans might travel outside of Karameikos, to Darokin, the Five Shires and Rockhome. They would see the Darokin merchant's strict mercantile ethics to be humorous, perfect for taking advantage of. The Hin of the Five Shires would enjoy their visits, seeing them as mysterious and interesting. Their sheriffs might not agree, keeping a close watch on the light fingered nomads. The dwarves of Rockhome would dislike their larcenous reputation, but enjoy the chance to trade for colorful trinkets. Few clans ever venture into Thyatis or farther north than Darokin. They trade for EVERYTHING, preferring goods, services, trinkets and services over Royals and Cronas. The often accept promises for later services in place of immediate payment. They interpret promises literally, so care must be taken on the exact wording. Everyone knows that crossing a gypsy is foolish. Many stories told to frighten children, tell of a broken promise to a gypsy and the terrible consequences. They most common stories tell of gypsy curses and kidnapped children, but in any case, breaking a promise to a gypsy brings a harsh, but fitting punishment. Gypsies follow only gypsy law, such that it is. They ignore laws they don't like, completely unfettered by guilt. To a gypsy, justice is more important than law. They believe that it is not wrong to steal, since if the person truly cared about the stolen item, they would not have left it where someone could steal it in the first place. They have harsh views on murder and rape, seeing both as the most horrible of crimes. They also dislike broken promises and lies, but think nothing of twisting the truth in their favor. Gypsy punishments for crimes are always fitting. A broken promise for services might be responded to by the kidnapping of a young child who will perform services in their parent's place. Meanwhile the child will be accepted as one of the clan and raised as any other gypsy child. They tend to rationalize this by saying that a parent without honor does not deserve to raise such a beautiful child, and to protect the child, they will take him and raise them properly. Assault on a gypsy would be answered with a curse like "May you always be the target of the anger of others" or "May the pain of your victims haunt your sleep forever." or something nasty and poetic. Religiously, they would have a strong connection to Petra, Halaav and Zirchev(sp?). They might also have a strong connection to the land, drawn to it, but unable to settle down. This might have something to do with a curse placed upon them, or maybe a sacred charge given them by the Immortals to always travel across the land, protecting it and keeping the old traditions alive. In any case, their motivation to roam across Karameikos should be deeper than simple wanderlust. The reason might even be so old, they no longer remember why they constantly travel, they just do. The few who settle down are usually restless, secretly longing for their old life. The gypsy blood in the children of these settled gypsies usually infects them with a similar desire to wander, causing them to seek a life as an adventurer. This is off the top of my head, so I'll add more after I've had a chance to do some research. I plan on looking in Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani and some real world historical and cultural sources. Does anyone have any other suggestions for gypsy info (real world or Mystara)? Any comments or additions? Mystaros commented on this from his campaign… >>...the Darine are descended from Traldar that migrated west into Sind during the invasion of the Red Orcs in 1000 BC (in myth the RW Gypsies were both from Egypt and India (Egypt/Gypsies); as the Traldar were descended from the Ptahr al-Dar clan of Nithians, I felt this was an appropriate origin). Never quite fitting in to the local culture, the Traldar Tribe that formed from these refugees moved out of the region in 600 BC and hasn't ever really settled down since... though the region of Traladara has become a "Homeland" for many of the clans, the Darine range all across the continent of Brun and beyond...<< Bingo! In my research I found the same origins of the RW Gypses. Historically, the gypsies (considered a separate ethnic group) were first found in north central India. It is unknown weather they lived in India as part of the caste system, or on the fringes of that society. Regardless, they began migrations from India, through the Middle East during the 9th century. Originally called the Dom, and later Rom (meaning "the people"), they speak a language called Romany, a variation of sanskrit with loan words mixed in. Their wanderings brought them to Europe in the 14th & 15th centuries where they gained the name Gypsy after their assumed place of origin, Egypt. They have a history as entertainers, blacksmiths, fortune tellers and horse traders. They usually practice the religion most common to where they live. They are insular and believe contact with non-gypsies to be "polluting". They practice marriage arrangement, have a strict moral code and have a strong sense of tradition. The Kris (an informal court) is used to address and mediate disputes, matters of common law and Gypsy custom, using it in place of established institutions. The have been and continue to be discriminated against because of their refusal to integrate into mainstream society. A rough estimate places current gypsy population at over 6 million worldwide, with several tribes and numerous groups living across Europe, the Middle East and North America. With this in mind, and with Mystaros' notes on Traldarian descent, I think Karameikos is the perfect place for Traladarian or Mystarian Gypsies. My intent when I said they didn't travel far north or into Thyatis was not to keep them isolated. I figured that they wouldn't go to Thyatis because of hard feelings against their "conquerors" and avoided Glantri because of the Glantrian attitude to strangers. Glantri blames the Dwarves of Rockhome for bringing a plague, what if they included the Gypsies too? I think that the idea of them traveling across Brun is cool, but was thinking about areas that might attract them. I don't picture them in Yularum(sp?) or the Broken lands or the Northern Territories, but there is no reason they couldn't go there. Maybe taking on some different characteristics. The more I think about it the more I like it. :) I also like the name "Darine", but think they should have many names. Maybe the people from Darokin call them one thing, the Karameikans call them something else, and they call themselves something completely different.<< Rick *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #706 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Friday, November 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 707 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani [MYSTARA] - Darine/Vistani Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani Re: [MYSTARA] - Hells LEDBlaFs. Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani [MYSTARA] - MISC: GMs Wanted! Re: [MYSTARA] - Darine/Vistani ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:25:27 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History >Been feeling like the Sphere of Confusion here and you can never find >the Sphere of Time when you need it ;> ;-) >You know. The Silent Smile might not be a bad symbol for Ilneval. Or >the Amused Torturer :) Hmm...Are you familiar with Myrkul and Loviatar from the Realms? >I'm thinking of Ylari to be the word for 'empty, no >history, or void'. That would make Ylaruam translate into "the land >with no past". Interesting, though there is a Ylari emirate named "Nithia," which would have to be explained...What do you think of this: the empire of Nithia was not really called "Nithia" at all, but some other name which is unknown because of the Immortals' curse. The word "Nithia" means "empty; without history; void." The Emirate of Nithia is so named because the people there especially have a sense of no history (the other peoples of Ylaruam at least have a sense of where they in part came from--for example, the Makistani have elements of Ethengarian lore in their history). And all those references (the published equivalent of "oops";-) to the "Nithian Empire" in the literature, as in the examples I mentioned previously, could be dead-end references to Ylari lore: they have a shadowy racial memory of there once being a great civilization, but it is really only myth to them, not "real" history, so they believe they have no real history there. They are a mystery to themselves. As for the Nithians in the HW, the Immortals gave them the "no history" name so that EVERY mention of the old empire could be truly eradicated. I don't know if that made complete sense, but I think you get my meaning. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:40:26 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani Rick wrote: >Using some of my ideas, a few of >Mystaros', bits of Ravenloft's Vistani and many of her own, Valerya did an >excellent job of fleshing them out. If I'm not mistaken, she has it posted on >her web site (which I seem to have lost the URL to). Here are my original >notes on this, but you should definetely check out Jen's stuff. It's quite >excellent. Thanks, Rick!! >Originally called the Dom, and later Rom (meaning "the people"), they speak a >language called Romany, a variation of sanskrit with loan words mixed in. Yes, all correct, which supports your opinion that the Darine might, in fact, call themselves something different. I plan to further develop "Darine" culture and perhaps history soon (after I get this Hulean monkey off my back;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:43:23 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Darine/Vistani Hi all, I've been trying all afternoon, to get a message through that includes the direct URL to my darine page, but hotmail keeps bouncing it back for some reason. I'm going to scream if this doesn't get through (of course, if you're reading this, I'm safe;-) Anyway, the URl (again) is: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/darine.html Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:27:18 EST From: BoBoII@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History In a message dated 98-11-11 06:41:38 EST, you write: << Another turn it could take would be the thought/theory that their God abandoned them, and sort of create, to a lesser extent, a nihilistic society, or a society of atheists who will have nothing to do with religion. Or who think they need to do above-mentioned assignment for their master before they again are his or hers favoured people. >> Exactly. I was riffing that if they had no history, they might believe it to be because they failed in some way in the past and were punished. Or that only those who did fail were punished for their acts, which were so awful/dangerous as to be blotted out, and the Ylari were allowed to live but with the warnings that they must never stray again. So they would have a mixed "favored people" and "double-secret probation"-sense of doom, which could combine to form a Very Religion Minded People (note, I didn't say devout , but their culture would be permiated with it) who's cultural Religious Ticklishness would allow them to be swayed in different directions at different times and would breed tribes and sects that view the "old Warnings" differently. "Enough Talk! (schwing, slash, bash, crush) Arnold in Conan the Destroyer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:46:15 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Alvin Gellert wrote: > > Agreed, the possibilities are many, but it would IMO be most likely to be a > highly religious people one way or the other. > Hopes this was of any help :) Some really good thoughts! Since I love internal conflicts so well, what about having two distinct groups each possessing one of these views? At least in the past. Since the desert is harsh, I'd imagine the harsher group (the religious fanatic) to have almost destroyed the atheistic group. Perhaps the connection I was looking for to the Vistani are remnants of the atheistic group that have been forced into other parts of the Known World (or crossed the mountains into Traladara and begin that people). Of course, the atheistic group still exists in parts of Ylaruam. Thanks for the ideas! - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:48:09 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani Rick and Jenn, Thanks for the pointers! I haven't had a chance to read all of Jenn's site but will. I've had it bookmarked for weeks now :) - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:57:49 -0000 From: "Fiachra O Muiri" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hells LEDBlaFs. This all sounds a bit OTT I admit. But this was back in the chaotic days, when Mystara was the D&D Known World and spelljammer was in it's infancy. The DM allowed the spelljammer rules to be used in a D&D campaign. Then all the characters began to change to AD&D (loosing a lot of power in the process :( The D&D Spell Permenance and Wish were well in the grasp of characters who were on Immortality quests and who had 2 Glantrian Mages with them. This scenario could probably only allowable in very high level camapigns. We had two Glantrian Mages funded by a Darokinian Merchant Prince of 12th Level (He built cities for a living) to do this. The biggest disadvantage we found with these things was that if you met something that could reflect one back at you, you ended up floating home... :( Our DM still knows how to deal with Mages who get to smart for their own good... Mage: "What happened to the ship?...." DM: "The Hells LEDBlaFs came back." Mage: "Uh oh. Is that why I'm floating alonein space amid a pile of burning wrekage?" DM: "Yep." Mage: "This is BAD isn't it" DM: "It sure is... Did I mention the Lich...?" To cut a long story short (too late), at was all in the name of fun. We got enough rope to hang ourselves. Hunter PS I mailed the original mail to this list by accident. Oops. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:06:14 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Jennifer Favia wrote: > > Hmm...Are you familiar with Myrkul and Loviatar from the Realms? Oh, yes. Loviatar is an old favorite. Afraid I didn't discover Myrkul until the trilogy he was killed in so he never impressed me. > Interesting, though there is a Ylari emirate named > "Nithia," which would have to be explained...What do > you think of this: the empire of Nithia was not really > called "Nithia" at all, but some other name which is > unknown because of the Immortals' curse. The word > "Nithia" means "empty; without history; void." The > Emirate of Nithia is so named because the people there > especially have a sense of no history (the other > peoples of Ylaruam at least have a sense of where they > in part came from--for example, the Makistani have > elements of Ethengarian lore in their history). And all > those references (the published equivalent of "oops";-) > to the "Nithian Empire" in the literature, as in the > examples I mentioned previously, could be dead-end > references to Ylari lore: they have a shadowy racial > memory of there once being a great civilization, but it > is really only myth to them, not "real" history, so > they believe they have no real history there. They are > a mystery to themselves. As for the Nithians in the HW, > the Immortals gave them the "no history" name so that > EVERY mention of the old empire could be truly > eradicated. I don't know if that made complete sense, > but I think you get my meaning. That's not a bad idea. Anything discovered that they don't understand yet is assumed to belong to this Nithia Empire. They eventually have Nithia to be greater than it ever truly was since ruins from it are found everywhere or so they believe. The Emirate of Nithia didn't bother me. One of the problems I had with Mystara as published is that so much of it is civilized in some way (if only internal divisions or belonging to a kingdom). I wanted the wilderness of all the Known World to be greater or unknown. So, my Ylaruam is a desert inhabited by nomads with very few settlements. Mostly along the sea coast or near mountain passes. Even a Ylari couldn't tell you what lays in the heart of the desert. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:37:27 -0500 From: Sharon Dornhoff Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History >The Emirate of Nithia didn't bother me. One of the problems I had with >Mystara as published is that so much of it is civilized in some way (if >only internal divisions or belonging to a kingdom). I wanted the >wilderness of all the Known World to be greater or unknown. So, my >Ylaruam is a desert inhabited by nomads with very few settlements. On a (vaguely) related note, could someone tell me what, if anything, has been written about the Magian Fire Worshippers? I know there's supposedly some remnants of that cult in the Emirate of Nithia -- or so Gaz2 claims -- but I don't have any other references about who they were or what role, exactly, they'd played in ancient Nithian society. Any information about them (e.g. from Masters- or Immortals-level modules, etc) would be welcome, as I'm hoping to tie the Nithian Magians' origins in with the M-Zoroastrian beliefs of the Hollow Moon's kopru satrapies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:36:05 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Tim wrote: >That's not a bad idea. Anything discovered that they don't understand >yet is assumed to belong to this Nithia Empire. They eventually have >Nithia to be greater than it ever truly was since ruins from it are >found everywhere or so they believe. Good idea. Makes what the "real" Nithia was an even greater mystery, plus it makes one wonder: was the SC *really* settled by Nithians, or someone else (whose achievements were attributed to the Nithians through ignorance)?...The possibilities for alternate timelines are endless... >I wanted the >wilderness of all the Known World to be greater or unknown. So, my >Ylaruam is a desert inhabited by nomads with very few settlements. >Mostly along the sea coast or near mountain passes. Even a Ylari >couldn't tell you what lays in the heart of the desert. I like that idea alot, too. I got the Ylaruam Gazetteer only earlier this year; I had already made up my own map of the Emirates, which left the central desert empty but settled the outer regions--near the sea, mountains, or major trail, plus Makistan. I pictured it more like the Arabian peninsula, where the central part of the desert was all but unsettled until fairly recently. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:03:41 +0100 From: Alvin Gellert Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History >Some really good thoughts! Since I love internal conflicts so well, >what about having two distinct groups each possessing one of these >views? At least in the past. Since the desert is harsh, I'd imagine >the harsher group (the religious fanatic) to have almost destroyed the >atheistic group. Perhaps the connection I was looking for to the >Vistani are remnants of the atheistic group that have been forced into >other parts of the Known World (or crossed the mountains into Traladara >and begin that people). Of course, the atheistic group still exists in >parts of Ylaruam. Thanks for the ideas! > >-- >Tim I like the part with internal conflict too, but I think the most important fact in a campaign is consistency, so the players truly get the feel of the world. Instead of having them thinking "Heh, the master liked this or that, therefore it is", I by far prefer to have them thinking things through and saying "Hey, this makes sense". Therefore it can be a little tricky with the internal conflict, IMHO. I really love your idea about internal conflict, but if they had been splitted like this since their history began, why would they form a country together? I think they would have created 2 different nations, often in war, or if the fanatics had been the dominant, the atheists would simply have left the area. The fanatics could never leave, as their God probably had a meaning by putting them where they are, but the atheists would simply leave. A thing that could work quite well, I think, is to have the schism having been formed recently. Like if you had all the people be atheists before the Great War (Wrath of the Immortals). But quite a few false immortals appeared then, courtesy to Hel and a few others, and this could create quite a nice setting now. If Balthac was only one of many false Immortals, and Hel had appeared as the atheists displeased God, convincing quite a few that it was truly their God who had forgiven them if they would only purge the faithless? Hope my ramblings make some sense :) Alvin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:26:27 -0600 From: Tim Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Alvin Gellert wrote: > > Therefore it can be a little tricky with the internal conflict, IMHO. I > really love your idea about internal conflict, but if they had been > splitted like this since their history began, why would they form a country > together? I think they would have created 2 different nations, often in > war, or if the fanatics had been the dominant, the atheists would simply > have left the area. The fanatics could never leave, as their God probably > had a meaning by putting them where they are, but the atheists would simply > leave. I'm thinking of having many of the original atheists to leave and become the Traladara forebearers. But you're right that in order to keep that internal conflict, there needs to be a reason why some atheists would remain and fight the fundamentalists. I think the sparseness of communities could work. Over time, atheistic attitudes have spread to the fanatics remaining with little pockets remembering the teaching of the Immortals. If the fundamentalist movement is a recent resurgence like you suggested then recent troubles could have given them that power needed to become a power in Ylaruam again? Just some musings. > If Balthac was only one of many false Immortals, > and Hel had appeared as the atheists displeased God, convincing quite a few > that it was truly their God who had forgiven them if they would only purge > the faithless? I like this thought. And it helps explain why such radicals haven't spread their beliefs beyond their borders yet. Once they completely destroy the faithless in their own lands, they would turn to the the rest of the world. I mentioned the Nithia survivors becoming the originators of the Traladara since it could be one that formed without regard to the Immortals. Only the coming of Halav changed that. Which is why he is so revered there (to almost fanatical ways) unlike Immortals in other nations besides Ylaruam. - -- Tim This has been a GalwylinŽ Production http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:34:06 +1100 From: "Loki Carbis" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani I once proposed a group of gypsie-like individuals that wandered across Karameikos and the sourrounding areas. Using some of my ideas, a few of Mystaros', bits of Ravenloft's Vistani and many of her own, Valerya did an excellent job of fleshing them out. If I'm not mistaken, she has it posted on her web site (which I seem to have lost the URL to). Here are my original notes on this, but you should definetely check out Jen's stuff. It's quite excellent. I had a very similar idea (which I really should finish writing up and put on my page) about Known World Gypsies. The only significant difference is that I gave them a different origin, making them the original inhabitants of the landmass now known as Alphatia, who were displaced by the Alphatians' arrival. They wandered throughout most of the KW, excepting only the Broken Lands, Glantri, Atraughin and Sind, and were also found on the Isle of Dawn, although never in any section under Alphatian control. Does anyone have any ideas about Savage Coast gypsies? Loki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:29:17 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [MYSTARA] - MISC: GMs Wanted! Greetings. I'm the RPG coordinator for MonCon '99, which will be held on March 19-21st 1999 at the Holiday Inn in Tinton Falls NJ. In that capacity, I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention. Our pre-registration book will be going to the printers soon, and many of our tables are already filled, so if you are interested in GMing an event, the time to sign up is now! If you're in the NJ/NY/PA/MD area, and think you'd be interested in running such an event, please contact me -OFF-LIST- and I'll give you more specifics. We already have over 30 AD&D events scheduled, many RPGA events, but only a few world-specific events at this time. I'd still like to see events featuring Al-Qadim, Birthright, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (the only Greyhawk event currently scheduled isn't an AD&D event!), Mystara, or Planescape. Help us make this our best convention ever! Thanx for your time... - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:56:19 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darine/Vistani I used these guys yesterday and I think my players really liked them. I didnt play on their negative sides though. They heard rumours about thee Darine being a rougish dishonest lot, but found them to be friendly and hospitable. Unfortuanely none of the characters wanted to flirt with the lovely darine girls, which might have lead to some really interesting situations..Those characters who havent already found themselves a chosen partnesr seem to be totally asexual. They didn't even want the company of two forest spirits they met two weeks earlier..hmmm :) Anyway, I think the characters found these people a peaceful change from the over-macho Centaurs they usually have to deal with. Who says a Karameikos campaigns needs to be clicheic dungeon-crawling? Håvard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #707 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, November 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 708 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:13:09 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Hi there... Quiet again...or is everyone off having a good time at the MMB? :-\ (sorry, was that catty?) Two questions: 1.) I've been researching Loki in Norse myth, and I'm surprised at his neutrality. M-Loki seems equally as neutral, more like a Trickster figure than evil. Bozdogan, OTOH, is very much like the tenth-century perceptions of Loki via the early Christian tradition--devious, nasty, and altogether not a nice guy. I was wondering if anyone had an opinion: Is there a degree of eastern (Brun) interpretation going on here in the perception of Bozdogan vs. Loki, or are we looking at an Immortal with a serious split personality? 2.) I'm sure that most of you are familiar with James Mishler's Temple of Chaos pantheon. I like the idea of a Hulean pantheon, especially since we know that Bozdogan is only the head of the Immortals worshipped in Hule. But I dislike the "Chaos" angle...while the Hulean doctrine might be essentially CN, the government and social systems run toward LE. What is your take on this discrepancy? Just some things that I thought would be interesting to discuss...Please, though, do not feel the need to quote X5 at me--I am aware of the contents as well as you. ;-) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:11:55 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > > 1.) I've been researching Loki in Norse myth, and I'm > surprised at his neutrality. M-Loki seems equally as > neutral, more like a Trickster figure than evil. > Bozdogan, OTOH, is very much like the tenth-century > perceptions of Loki via the early Christian > tradition--devious, nasty, and altogether not a nice > guy. I was wondering if anyone had an opinion: Is there > a degree of eastern (Brun) interpretation going on here > in the perception of Bozdogan vs. Loki, or are we > looking at an Immortal with a serious split > personality? > > 2.) I'm sure that most of you are familiar with James > Mishler's Temple of Chaos pantheon. I like the idea of > a Hulean pantheon, especially since we know that > Bozdogan is only the head of the Immortals worshipped > in Hule. But I dislike the "Chaos" angle...while the > Hulean doctrine might be essentially CN, the government > and social systems run toward LE. What is your take on > this discrepancy? I will try to answer both questions at the same time: In first place, I see the Loki presented by Norse myth (especially Wagner's Niebelungen Lied, which displays a lot of ethical/alignment ideas) as an incarnation of Chaos, not evil at all. He is the chaos which inspires and aids the "rightful" gods (like his using of the Helm of Polymorphing to get the Ring), but also the chaos which stirs trouble and, ultimately, will unleash all-consuming fire the day of Ragnarok (Loki is the patron of Fire, too. I see there a link with the elemental fire and its association with Chaos and Energy). So, M-Loki can easily be as a force of mischief. In short term it may be productive or harmful, but, at the end, it will promote a grievous conflagration, like Norse Ragnarok. This is why I still see him as an Entropic Immmortal and do not include him IMC as an Energy one. This links finely with Hule: Bozdogan/Loki presents a philosophy which can be considered CN, but the practical application of it (the Divinarchy) produces a LE set of institutions, laws and social codes. To bring forth a RW example, I cannot hepl thinking of two great politic-economical systems of this century: capitalism searches individual freedom and equality of opportunities for all people, but at the end, it generates one of the most complex systems of regulations, laws, bans and controls in History. Comunism, too, theretically tried to restore indentity to the "alienated masses", but in fact created a strict set of rules and perhaps a greater alienation. Back to Hule, it is enough to understand that, if Bozdogan's creed involves using trickery to gain the upper hand, this is what rulers are doing by implementing his LE structure. Others may overthrow it if they are smart enough! And for Eastern perception, IMO I would present Hule as a manifestation of Loki's apocaliptic side: an impending doom of violent strife and conflict to play a bit with the sense of "civilization" of OW nations. Brunians !? of course see that face of Loki with more worry that any other and thus a bit of prejudice is not unreasonable, but Loki per se is not Evil IMO. He seeks Chaos above anything else. If evil is a consequence, well... he does not care. Andrés *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:44:42 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > Two questions: > > 1.) I've been researching Loki in Norse myth, and I'm > surprised at his neutrality. M-Loki seems equally as > neutral, more like a Trickster figure than evil. > There's a whole bunch of screeds on this topic in one or two Dragon mags, but I can't remember the number (somewhere between issue 100 and issue 150, IIRC), nor be bothered to go check right now (sorry). Even in the Norse myths Loki was responsible for some pretty. . .dubious. . .behavior. But also some positive things, too. Guess it depends on your take on alignments, and how you interpret them (I.E. if you do some evil, and some good, does that balance out as "neutral feckless"?) But I'm not ready to re-open that can of worms again. Significant to remember: the Immortals given Norse names are *based* on the Norse mythology, but they are not intended to be direct transcriptions of them to Mystara. Loki is an Entropic Immortal (and I suppose we could re-open the "are all Entropics evil" debate again, too. . .but:) the Mystaran version of Loki is described as not such a fine fellow. Now, this doesn't mean he always acts "evil" (after all, one of the better things about Mystara is that, except for cartoonish figures like Stefan, most of the NPCs are complex, and their behavior can't be described on a matchbook cover or easily predicted.) > in the perception of Bozdogan vs. Loki, or are we > looking at an Immortal with a serious split > personality? > The above all said, "split personality" might be an effective way of describing a Chaotic Immortal, would it not? After all, these guys might use their Avatars "eclectically". Where a more Lawful type might tend to repeat the same basic pattern among all followers, under all names, Chaotics aren't bound by such things as consistancy ("consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds" -- Loki/Bogdozan). > in Hule. But I dislike the "Chaos" angle...while the > Hulean doctrine might be essentially CN, the government > and social systems run toward LE. What is your take on > this discrepancy? > Hmmmn. . .well, TSR has never been good at describing "chaotic" governments (I.E., most Elven realms, generally considered "chaotic good" folk, tend to have rather hierarchical, centralized, almost authoritarian - -- if benign -- governments. Even the Drow have come across as rather "centralized"). Part of the problem may be in the descriptions. One of the problem with most of the materiel is that it doesn't really well describe flux, change, and social dynamics in a fluid way. Instead, the Gazeteers et al depict what I'd call, and have called, "climax societies." So even Alphatia comes across as unchanging, rather than exibiting chaotic dynamism and "progress". But that doesn't really answer your question (once again I've used an inocuous inquiry as an excuse to pontificate). Here's how I'd "answer" it: take the base materiel you're working from. Assume that "dubious" portions reflect not "objective truth from the DM's/Omnicient point of view" but rather "social propaganda", and extrapolate from it. For example, I'd imagine advancement in Hulean government would be achieved as much by slandering one's competition for high office as much as on merit. Cabals of every sort should exist below the superficial surface "reality". Hosadus, and his other officials, probably use "factual truth" to their advantage, twisting it and deploying it on a selective basis, rather than using overt lies (ask Aleksei how this works, he's very good at this, playing the Master of Hule in SCBR, as well as DMing him in MystBR): this might be "lawful", after a fashion (and I really am bad at describing chaotic behavior, since I am the Guardian of Orthodoxy and all, it is contrary to my nature. But if you'll let me know what specific problems you have with Hule, and its "lawfulness", I can probably manage to infuse them with a suitable amount of ambiguity. . .) There is a whole screed I posted to the MMB about infusing "canon" with ambiguity and opening it up for re-interpretation. But I guess you can't access it. (who's catty now? *G*) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:01:05 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > I will try to answer both questions at the same time: > > In first place, I see the Loki presented by Norse myth (especially Wagner's > Niebelungen Lied, which displays a lot of ethical/alignment ideas) as an > incarnation of Chaos, not evil at all. > Hmmmn. . .I had forgotten Wagner lived in 9th century Scandinavia. For some reason I had him confused with a 19th century German. 8-)~ > Back to Hule, it is enough to understand that, if Bozdogan's creed involves > using trickery to gain the upper hand, this is what rulers are doing by > implementing his LE structure. Others may overthrow it if they are smart > enough! > Pseudo-Philosophical question: is such trickery lawful? Is deciet lawful? If you use "lawful" institutions to advance "chaotic" aims, are you lawful, chaotic, or neutral? Note that the above is *not* a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know what people's interpretations are. Because the consensus interpretation will help determine whether Hule is an arguably LE society or CE, or somewhere in between. Also, on a different point unrelated to the question(s) above: note that laws on the books don't make for a Lawful society, especially if they are selectively applied and/or distorted. IMO (and only IMO, perhaps), "Lawfulness" doesn't consist so much of a comprehensive legal code but 1) the philosophy that informs it (I.E. are the laws of "universal" applicability, IMO making them "Lawful" in the alignment sense, or do they consist of a body of ad-hoc preferences, different laws for different classifications of folks, etc, which would IMO make them "Chaotic" in the alignment sense. 2) Related to that, how are they applied? Consistantly (Lawful), or "flexibly" (Chaotic). It is, for example, one thing to have a Constitution which says certain things, and another thing to have a government/society which operates under a different dispensation as a result of creative interpretations etc. (<-------- deliberately kept that statement in the abstract rather than giving any specific IRL examples, but I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with an analogy that will suit your own preferences, and thus illustrate what I meant by that, without me opening up various debates unrelated to Mystara and gaming). In other words, Hule's laws may say one thing. Hosadus' "spin machine" will probably even advance arguments that would make him and his cronies seem not CE, not LE, but actually LG (again, AA is a master of that --and I don't mean that in a bad way-- in how he run's Hule). But you have to look at the effect of their activities. Anyone can mouth platatudes and tautologies. But that doesn't make them as pure as a Paladin. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:29:47 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Discovered History In a message dated 1998-11-11 17:53:45 Eastern Standard Time, dornhoff@bio.umass.edu writes: > On a (vaguely) related note, could someone tell me what, if anything, has > been written about the Magian Fire Worshippers? I know there's supposedly > some remnants of that cult in the Emirate of Nithia -- or so Gaz2 claims -- > but I don't have any other references about who they were or what role, > exactly, they'd played in ancient Nithian society. > > Any information about them (e.g. from Masters- or Immortals-level modules, > etc) would be welcome, as I'm hoping to tie the Nithian Magians' origins in > with the M-Zoroastrian beliefs of the Hollow Moon's kopru satrapies. I think I figured on the Magian Fire Worshipers as being chaotic followers of Rathanos, who was indeed (according to WotI) a patron of the ancient Nithians. To increase the antagonism between Glantrians and Ylari, in my own campaign many people had the theory that Rad and Rathanos were one and the same, based solely on the similarity of names. They might also be connected with the fire mages of Honor Island in Ierendi. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:29:50 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Vistani In a message dated 1998-11-12 09:54:59 Eastern Standard Time, unsworn@iname.com writes: > Does anyone have any ideas about Savage Coast gypsies? Okay -- there is one special ability that SC gypsies would have to have, and this special ability would make them very popular targets for quests by Inheritors. This special ability is a greatly reduced sensitivity to the Red Curse -- they can wander into and out of Cursed areas freely without being seriously affected by it and do not need to use cinnabryl, which means that they can wander away from the Savage Coast for as long as desired with no ill effects. In fact, the only thing way for an SC gypsy's health to be adversely affected would be if he stayed in one place for too long. As for their ethnic origin -- they could either be related to or the same people as the Darine from Karameikos. After all, there are Traladarans in the City States east of the Bay of Hule -- so having "gypsies" there and all along the length of the Savage Coast would not be that much of a stretch. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:15:16 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan James wrote: > Hmmmn. . .well, TSR has never been good at describing "chaotic" >governments Couldn't agree more. >For example, I'd >imagine advancement in Hulean government would be achieved as much by >slandering one's competition for high office as much as on merit. Cabals of >every sort should exist below the superficial surface "reality". I seem to remember reading somewhere (was it Daniel Boese's Hule Gazetteer?) that although lies are holy, one cannot lie to one's superiors, so that the hagiarchy can still function. This, to me, sabotages the chaotic nature of Hule. >(ask Aleksei how this works, he's very good at this, playing the >Master of Hule in SCBR, as well as DMing him in MystBR) Okay, Aleksei, show yourself!!!! [What *are* those things, BTW?] >But if you'll let me know what specific problems you have with >Hule, and its "lawfulness", I can probably manage to infuse them with a >suitable amount of ambiguity. . .) Basically, I just can't get it to gel in my head how such a rigid, highly-structured, highly-bureaucratic government can function with Chaos as it means and end. In other words, any ambiguity you might provide would be greatly appreciated (since I don't think I can write this thing up correctly if I don't "get" it in the first place) ;-) > There is a whole screed I posted to the MMB about infusing "canon" with >ambiguity and opening it up for re-interpretation. But I guess you can't >access it. Yes, actually, I figured out a way to load it faster (bookmark behind the main page, clear cache memory, no frames...you DON'T want to know!;-)...I was just making a nasty comment. ;-0 But I would like to read what you posted...what's the thread headed? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:20:05 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan James wrote: >Note that the above is *not* a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know >what people's interpretations are. Because the consensus interpretation >will help determine whether Hule is an arguably LE society or CE, or >somewhere in between. Actually, I think that it is CN in philosophy, not CE. But the functioning of the government from what I have seen is LE...it's this that I can't reconcile. > In other words, Hule's laws may say one thing. Hosadus' "spin machine" >will probably even advance arguments that would make him and his cronies >seem not CE, not LE, but actually LG (again, AA is a master of that I've *got* to talk to Aleksei--do you have his address? Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:35:23 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > I seem to remember reading somewhere (was it Daniel Boese's Hule > Gazetteer?) that although lies are holy, one cannot lie to one's > superiors, so that the hagiarchy can still function. This, to me, > sabotages the chaotic nature of Hule. > Well, their are out and out lies and untruths. And then their is mastery of distortion, demogogy, selective amnesia, and other forms of deception that stops just short of lies ("I did not have sexual relations [as defined in certain terms] with that woman," "Most ethical administration," etc, etc. There. You got me to do it. Happy now? Are these lies, per se? Or are they true if you adopt a certain world view? [That of a sociopath, for example?]) > > Okay, Aleksei, show yourself!!!! > [What *are* those things, BTW?] > SCBR= Savage Coast Birthright MystBR= Mystaran Birthright. The first is a PBEM inspired by AA's adaptation of the Savage Coast to Birthright materiel, and the 2nd is similar, concentrating on the KW, run by AA himself as DM. > > Basically, I just can't get it to gel in my head how such a rigid, > highly-structured, highly-bureaucratic government can function with > Chaos as it means and end. In other words, any ambiguity you might > provide would be greatly appreciated (since I don't think I can write > this thing up correctly if I don't "get" it in the first place) ;-) > Some might say that bureocracy itself fosters chaos, especially super-bureocracies, but don't let the Gearheads hear me say that. Too bad I can't send some of the Traveller adventure materiels involving interaction with "Impersonal Bureocracy" type-institutions over the internet. How complex is the web of bureocratic organs? Are they organized in any logical fashion? Is their a Bureau of Bovine-Related Methane Emissions? Do you have to run around all day filling out forms and greasing palms in order to get anything done? (meanwhile the cognocenti manage to "cut through the red tape" and achieve their goals without a sweat.) Bureocracies are also great ways to "lose" and "misplace" things (like FBI files, Law Firm records, etc.), investigate your enemies, etc. In other words, their are what might be called "Civil Service Bureocracies," which are intended to serve the general public (lets not argue whether they do or not). Then we might imagine a whole set of bureocratic organs which mainly exist to 1) portray the vener of "the rule of law" while actually subverting it by rendering justice impossible and 2) serve the interests of a specific elite while stifling any competition that might arrise ("you'd like to start a silk manufacturing business? Ok, citizen Suc-R. I applaud your entreprenureal spirit. Of course, you need to get permits for [fill in umpteen numbers of things, all involving interaction with a separate bureocratic organ. Use your creativity.]") > > > Yes, actually, I figured out a way to load it faster > (bookmark behind the main page, clear cache memory, no > frames...you DON'T want to know!;-)...I was just making > a nasty comment. ;-0 But I would like to read what you posted...what's > the thread headed? > It's something under one of the Alphatia-related headings. "New Alphatian Wizard's Census" IIRC. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:37:50 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > Actually, I think that it is CN in philosophy, not CE. But the > functioning of the government from what I have seen is LE...it's this > that I can't reconcile. > (Well, as described, I set up a law-chaos dichodomy. You'd have to add in other eliments to determine where a specific example would fit on the G-N-E axis. But I actually simplified for once). > > I've *got* to talk to Aleksei--do you have his address? > He's on the MML. He'll see your plea for help. But his addy is: solmyr@kolumbus.fi *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:16:41 EST From: Kaviyd@aol.com Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan In a message dated 1998-11-14 02:34:10 Eastern Standard Time, valerya@hotmail.com writes: > I seem to remember reading somewhere (was it Daniel Boese's Hule > Gazetteer?) that although lies are holy, one cannot lie to one's > superiors, so that the hagiarchy can still function. This, to me, > sabotages the chaotic nature of Hule. Okay, try this -- if your lie actually brings down your superior, then it is a holy lie. But woe to you if that superior manages to hold on to his position until your lie is exposed.... And of course the entire concept of "truth" in Hule is defined by those in power. For example, the Master never has to lie -- everything he says is the absolute truth, and woe to any Hulean who says differently.... In regard to the law/chaos dichotomy in the hagiarchy of Hule, I would suggest that Hule has so many laws and regulations that keeping all of them is impossible -- anybody can be arbitrarily arrested and punished for any of a large number of possible offenses. There are just enough cases where actions are both compulsory and forbidden to ensure that every Hulean is technically a criminal. But whether anyone is actually arrested and punished at all depends on the whim of their superiors -- if the subordinate proves himself useful but does not seem to be a threat to his superiors, then he is probably safe and is given considerable slack in regard to "holy lies", but those who make problems for their superiors are disposed of promptly. The main reason that I see for Hule's apparent stability is the fact that the Master is a strong leader -- nobody dares challenge his authority, so his whims are law (which makes his government basically chaotic, despite any appearances to the contrary). Once he is removed from the scene for any reason, I am sure that Hule will collapse into civil disorder. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:17:07 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > Basically, I just can't get it to gel in my head how such a rigid, > highly-structured, highly-bureaucratic government can function with > Chaos as it means and end. > I appologize for effectively spamming you on this, but I thought of some examples: When I used "citizen Suc-R" in a previous screed, I was on to something but hadn't totally identified it myself: "Citizen Suc-R" is a reference to the old Paranoia game, where the City is run by a deranged computer. It is a highly bureocratic place, but also a highly irrational one, because the Computer is insane, and sees traitors all around it. Well, not *so* insane, because everyone *is* a traitor (with the possible exception of the FCCCP), especially the members of the Computer's own enforcment arm (the Troubleshooters). Another example of a Chaotic Evil but heavily bureocratized nation can be found in George Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four", which I highly recomend. Special attention should be paid to O'Brien's claims, but the whole thing is interesting to say the least. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:23:46 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > The main reason that I see for Hule's apparent stability is the fact that > the Master is a strong leader -- nobody dares challenge his authority, > so his whims are law (which makes his government basically chaotic, > despite any appearances to the contrary). Once he is removed from > the scene for any reason, I am sure that Hule will collapse into civil > disorder. > Hule is stable for the same reason that Oceania is stable - the power of thouse in charge is near absolute, and they are able to impose it at will (I'm not describing that well because it is late and I'm tired). Remember, on several occasions Hosadus is supossed to have disapeared for long lengths of time; his "machine" thus appears to be somewhat self-regulating. Big Brother didn't have to exist for the Party to impose its will on Oceania (in fact, Big Brother didn't exist). The lack of one central "target" can also be a weakness, if you assume that the "Inner Party"/High Priesthood is sufficiently supportive/faithful to the concept (of Ingsoc, Bozdogan worship, whatever). You thus achieve a self-perpetuating system, which may be extremely stable. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:19 -0000 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > Hmmmn. . .well, TSR has never been good at describing "chaotic" >governments (I.E., most Elven realms, generally considered "chaotic good" >folk, tend to have rather hierarchical, centralized, almost authoritarian >-- if benign -- governments. Even the Drow have come across as rather >"centralized"). Well, I agree with you 99% here. I dislike the drow intensely, because their society beliefs just do not hang together with their individual beliefs. I suppose Lolth forcibly makes them live that way, but thats just a cheap way out IMHO. I was impressed by the Alfheim gaz on the other hand, that seems very much to be a chaotic society. It certainly stands out from all the other elven realms (Compare Alfheim to Evermeet and ask yourself which is more chaotic...). So give TSR a break - Alfheim at least is chaotic :) Cheerz ROB *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:10:13 -0500 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan At 12:01 AM 11/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >Pseudo-Philosophical question: is such trickery lawful? Is deciet lawful? >If you use "lawful" institutions to advance "chaotic" aims, are you lawful, >chaotic, or neutral? > >Note that the above is *not* a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know >what people's interpretations are. Because the consensus interpretation >will help determine whether Hule is an arguably LE society or CE, or >somewhere in between. > I would say probably neutral. As each member of the government is out to pursue their own interests, with only the slightest of nods to lawfulness, this would I think make it neutral. But I don't think they're pursuing 'chaotic aims'. Anarchy would be bad for business. So yeah, neutral with some lawful tendencies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:26:00 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan >stops just short of lies ("I did not have sexual relations [as defined in >certain terms] with that woman," "Most ethical administration," etc, etc. Are you saying that Clinton worships Bozdogan? :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:22:02 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan >and his other officials, probably use "factual truth" to their advantage, >twisting it and deploying it on a selective basis, rather than using overt >lies (ask Aleksei how this works, he's very good at this, playing the >Master of Hule in SCBR, as well as DMing him in MystBR): this might be Oh, absolutely. Perhaps I'm actually Bozdogan's avatar :) Anyway, in the PBEMs, the Master's machinations have gotten lots of people shouting, squabbling, and threatening bodily harm to each other. Blatant lies could never do that, since everyone would realize it once they were revealed. Instead, the Master uses simple truth as a weapon, after suitably wording it to put it in the most unfavorable way to his enemies. An example: in Mystaran Birthright, one of the Master's favorite verbal weapons is to speak against the "greedy Darokinian merchants who don't care about the people, only about their money". This has cost Darokin several potential alliances as well as all land to the borders of Alfheim, occupied by the Master while few have come to Darokin's aid. After all, everyone already "knows" that Darokinians are greedy, you just have to phrase it appropriately. Of course it didn't help that some merchants actually did display greedy behavior, but in fact only perhaps 3 of them did, and now almost all of them are tainted as the resu! lt. So, as Hosadus says, "The greatest lie is the bare truth." ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #708 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message. mystara-digest Saturday, November 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 709 Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc. All Rights Reserved. The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim. Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:04:39 +0200 From: "Aleksei Andrievski" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan >a degree of eastern (Brun) interpretation going on here >in the perception of Bozdogan vs. Loki, or are we >looking at an Immortal with a serious split >personality? > Well, one must remember that Mystaran Immortals do not necessarily have to be the same as RL gods. The Mystaran Loki is indeed quite a bit CE, when one looks at his description in WotI, for example. >in Hule. But I dislike the "Chaos" angle...while the >Hulean doctrine might be essentially CN, the government >and social systems run toward LE. What is your take on >this discrepancy? > Well, the doctrine and the government needn't be completely in harmony (that would be un-Hulean, wouldn't it? :) Indeed I see the Master as the most "lawful" of the Hulean priesthood (though still CE), since he has to maintain a degree of control. It is difficult though, with all the chaotic holy men lying, cheating, and betraying left and right. That's probably why the Master wants Sind and Darokin - their people are so much more submissive, a welcome respite :) ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star aka Azure Star Dragon solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:29:54 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alfheim. > > So give TSR a break - Alfheim at least is chaotic :) > First, good to have you post again. Second; ok, Alfheim is a bit more chaotic than the usual. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:10:08 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > already "knows" that Darokinians are greedy, you just have to phrase > it appropriately. Of course it didn't help that some merchants actually > did display greedy behavior, but in fact only perhaps 3 of them did, and > now almost all of them are tainted as the result. > Ok, point of personal privelege. to clarify: only three are greedy to the point of worthlessness (3 of 9), but that doesn't mean the rest are paragons of civic virtue. Of thouse that are or could be considered paragons of civic virtue, 1 left the Council (and Darokin) early on because he'd rather keep his honor than work with snakes (arguably, and I have argued it, this abdication from the Council was an abdication of responsibility. So though I consider this dude honorable, if someone wants to say that he didn't show much patriotism/civic virtue by not trying to sway/persuade the Council to the side of honor, I'd give you that) So 3 of 9 were/are seeking paladin status, but only 2 are now on the council. That leaves 3 others. One is pretty honorable, but his loyalties (arguably) lie more with another nation than with Darokin itself. At any rate I'd certainly argue his votes have hurt Darokin's interests as much as they've helped it. And two others are/were just total bungholes, who's catastrophic positions on the "issues of the day" were motivated by loyalty, civic spirit, patriotic jingoism, reckless intransigence, and blind prejudice that drove away at least as many allies and potential allies as the overt greed of the three "prime examples". It didn't/doesn't help that the more honorable ones basically maintain(ed) a low profile, and the less honorable couldn't keep their mouths shut. When one of the honorable dudes (as described above) left the Council, the balance tiped in favor of the "worthless and feckless" faction (which then held 4 out of 8 votes, and achieved working majorities, 5 to 3 vote margins, on numerous occasions through the deft use of agitprop & apeals to jingoism. They reciently managed to force a greedy, but loyal, member off the Council, and now have a secure majority that only one nation *really* feels bound to help these wonders, and that's because that particular nation's ruler gave his word and feels he can't break it). The Council now has 6 members, consisting of: one very stupid chancellor, one overt traitor, one member notorious for graft, one sort of honorable fellow who is more loyal to a nation other than Darokin, and two honorable members who may be shifting towards. .well, I'd better not say anymore. . ..(oh, if you count one "missing" house, that is because one of them disolved once they had already done all the harm they probably would have been able to. Having achieved an outcome worthy of Bozdogan himself, the leaders of that House road off into the sunset). But I'll say one thing for 'em. They were never greedy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:13:08 -0000 From: "Rob" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan >>and his other officials, probably use "factual truth" to their advantage, >>twisting it and deploying it on a selective basis, rather than using overt >>lies (ask Aleksei how this works, he's very good at this, playing the >>Master of Hule in SCBR, as well as DMing him in MystBR): this might be A favourite tactic of politicians everywhere... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:46:36 +0000 From: acrmartins@sol.com.br Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan At 09:10 14/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Note that the above is *not* a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know >>what people's interpretations are. Because the consensus interpretation >>will help determine whether Hule is an arguably LE society or CE, or >>somewhere in between. >> >I would say probably neutral. As each member of the government is out to >pursue their own interests, with only the slightest of nods to lawfulness, >this would I think make it neutral. But I don't think they're pursuing >'chaotic aims'. Anarchy would be bad for business. So yeah, neutral with >some lawful tendencies. I will once more have to say I disagree of all this. I have never been able to agree with this whole alignment system that admits one only concept of right and wrong. With too many gods (or Immortals, please don't start that one discussion again) around, there would be at least as many moral systems as gods, probably more as they assume more than one names or philosophies. I will still one day to work out some of their philosophical systems and have once sent a small sketch of it to the list I won't repost now. If anyone wants to see it, go to Shwan's site (he has the post there in the Immortals section), or just point your browser directly to: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/moral.html Any comments will be very welcome. André *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:02:43 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan James wrote: >you have to run around all day filling out forms and greasing palms in >order to get anything done? (meanwhile the cognocenti manage to "cut >through the red tape" and achieve their goals without a sweat.) >Then we might imagine a whole set of >bureocratic organs which mainly exist to 1) portray the vener of "the rule >of law" while actually subverting it by rendering justice impossible and 2) >serve the interests of a specific elite while stifling any competition that >might arrise I really like this idea; I can definitely see how chaos can arise out of the lawful intentions of a "super-bureaucracy." Do you think though, that a religious bureaucracy would operate differently than a civil bureaucracy? I would imagine that the actions of the system would rely upon religious texts, etc. For example, a holy text says that taxes were collected at a certain time, so taxes always are collected at the time, etc. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:09:59 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > > "super-bureaucracy." Do you think though, that a > religious bureaucracy would operate differently than a > civil bureaucracy? > I suppose it could. But extrapolating from your example: you might have one kind of religiously-informed bureocracy that goes by a text that says taxes are always collected at a certain time and/or in a certain manner (arguably "lawful"), you might also have a different religiously-informed bureocracy that determines tax dates (and perhaps even this years rates!) by "checking the auspices" in some fashion (I.E. determining it semi-randomly), which would be arguably chaotic. The religious bureocracy could also be organized with the purpose of serving all the faithful (I.E. akin to a "civic" bureocracy) or organized around serving the interests of the select priestly class at the expense of the mass of lay faithful (under the guise, of, for example "you go till the fields and feed us, and care for our all our physical needs, and we'll do the hard work of contemplating and creating sand dioramas"). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:28:16 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Kaviyd wrote: >In regard to the law/chaos dichotomy in the hagiarchy of Hule, I would >suggest that Hule has so many laws and regulations that keeping all of >them is impossible -- anybody can be arbitrarily arrested and punished >for any of a large number of possible offenses. There are just enough >cases where actions are both compulsory and forbidden to ensure that >every Hulean is technically a criminal. It's an interesting angle, but I don't think that it can apply across the board. I can definitely see it applying to those int he government--it's a good way to keep them from leaving the service of Great Hule. But as for the common person who does nothing more than milk his goats, there's just nothing here. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:32:24 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan James wrote: >I appologize for effectively spamming you on this I'm not complaining ;-) > Another example of a Chaotic Evil but heavily bureocratized nation can be >found in George Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four", which I highly recomend. I've remarked on the similarities, as well, and I even think (IIRC) that someone else is developing Hule along 1984 lines. But 1984 is, of course, full of a dark, industrial overtone which does not apply to Hule...I can't see the commoners in the countryside being affected by the hgiarchy in quite the same way as those serving in Greatrealm or in the cities (Azurun, etc.). Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:38:17 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Aleksei wrote: >Well, the doctrine and the government needn't be completely in harmony (that would be un-Hulean, wouldn't it? :) Indeed I see the Master as the most "lawful" of the Hulean priesthood (though still CE), since he has to maintain a degree of control. It is difficult though, with all the chaotic holy men lying, cheating, and betraying left and right. That's probably why the Master wants Sind and Darokin - their people are so much more submissive, a welcome respite :) Although I disagree with the CE part (to me, LE + CN does not necessarily equal CE), I do see your point. And I'm beginning to be able to see (thanks, James) how chaos can be incorporated into bureaucracy. As for the reason for invasion, I think that "because I want it" is very shallow, and another shortcoming of the published material. I see Hule as wanting Darokin ultimately (not the whole continent) in order to be included among the "Eastern" nations...a modern, wealthy Hule would so much better serve Bozdogan. (Sind is a means to an end.) Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:46:52 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Andre wrote: >there would be at least as many moral systems >as gods, probably more as they assume more than one names or philosophies. >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304/moral.html > >Any comments will be very welcome. This is a very interesting idea, Andre, and one which makes A LOT of sense. We have often discussed here the notion that "alignment" (i.e., morality) is relative, and that a priest of Thanatos seeking destruction would probably see himself as doing "good." Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:02:16 -0500 From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan At 02:46 PM 11/14/98 +0000, you wrote: >At 09:10 14/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Note that the above is *not* a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know >>>what people's interpretations are. Because the consensus interpretation >>>will help determine whether Hule is an arguably LE society or CE, or >>>somewhere in between. >>> >>I would say probably neutral. As each member of the government is out to >>pursue their own interests, with only the slightest of nods to lawfulness, >>this would I think make it neutral. But I don't think they're pursuing >>'chaotic aims'. Anarchy would be bad for business. So yeah, neutral with >>some lawful tendencies. > >I will once more have to say I disagree of all this. I have never been able >to agree with this whole alignment system that admits one only concept of >right and wrong. With too many gods (or Immortals, please don't start that >one discussion again) around, there would be at least as many moral systems >as gods, probably more as they assume more than one names or philosophies. >I will still one day to work out some of their philosophical systems and >have once sent a small sketch of it to the list I won't repost now. If >anyone wants to see it, go to Shwan's site (he has the post there in the >Immortals section), or just point your browser directly to: > Was I talking about right and wrong? I was just talking about Law, Neutrality and Chaos. Or perhaps you were directing your comments to this whole thread? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:59:15 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Here's another fine example of RL and gaming intersecting, which I just read. IMO, it illustrates how bureocratic "rationalization" can easily induce chaos. I know Rob in particular will appreciate this one: __________________ "Dear Mr. Buckley: "The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the other possibility [What about French? I bet the Frogs weren't happy about that, considering how proud they are of "La Francophone". But I digress -- JR]. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English. "In the first year "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard "c" will be dripped [sic] in favor of the "k." This should klear up konfusion and keybords kan have one fewere letter. "There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replased with the "f." This will make words like "fotograph" 20 per sent shorter. "in the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expected to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. "Governments enkourage the removal of double leters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgraseful and it should go away. "By the fourth year peopl wil be resptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v." During ze fifz yer ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. "After ziz fifz yer ve vil hav a rali sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. "Ze drem vil finali kum tru!!" Christian Frei Lausanne, Switzerland. __________________________ Doubleplusgood Goodthink! VAR IS PESE FREDUM IS SLAVERY IGNORANSE IS STRENGTH *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:25:31 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan >but those who make problems for their superiors are disposed of promptly. I don't think may necessarily be the case though. If Hule is as it seems to be with its chaotic (CE, CN, it does't reaaly matter which) ways, then there would seem to be as in any organization someone who would pick up this problematic individual to help further his own ways for climbing to the top of the ladder. This also keeps the "order" of Hule in its chaotic state because if all problematic people were "take care of" by the "system" you then begin to have a system that weeds out those that may cause havoc to the "order" and what is Hule without a little havoc? >The main reason that I see for Hule's apparent stability is the fact that the Master is a strong leader -- nobody dares challenge his authority,so his whims are law I agree that he is a strong leader, but continuing with the "ladder climbing" theory, I think that Hosadus is always having to make shows of power to his subordinates because he knows there is always somebody who wants what he has and so must keep a tight reign on things by inciting fear-- maybe out of fear. Ariel "To do all that one is able to do is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do is to be a god." --Napoleon I (attributed) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:33:55 PST From: "Ariel Guerra" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > "After ziz fifz yer ve vil hav a rali sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no >mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. > "Ze drem vil finali kum tru!!" Would that this never "komes" to pass...But yur point iz vell taken...Chaos out of over-order. :-) Replying together, Ariel and Jenn ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:14:18 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan Ariel wrote: >I think that Hosadus is >always having to make shows of power to his >subordinates because he knows there is always somebody >who wants what he has and so must keep a tight reign on things by >inciting fear-- maybe out of fear. I can see that. Actually, I can see him as being fairly secretive (playing his cards close to the chest, so to speak), and even a little bit paranoid at times. I cannot see him (apparently) being able to trust any of his closest advisors (mainly Diviners), except probably Alrethus. Consequently, I think that he may be looking toward the east as a sort of release valve, a place to shunt the more powerful priests. Additionally, any "easternization" of Hule would tend toward his consolidation of power, as more of a monarch than a ruling patriarch. Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:37:39 -0600 From: "James Ruhland" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan > > This is a very interesting idea, Andre, and one which makes A LOT of > sense. We have often discussed here the notion that "alignment" (i.e., > morality) is relative, and that a priest of Thanatos seeking destruction > would probably see himself as doing "good." > After recieving this I was *sorely* tempted to turn this into a philosophical debating forum. But that isn't what the MML is, so I will restrain myself with a few remarks: 1) If you accept the above, then IMO alignments should be completely dispensed with and eliminated from D&D (all systems). This is something I have argued before, admitedly for other reasons (see below). The alignment system is based on the assumption that their is such a thing as objective moral & ethical standards (though the alignment descriptions given by TSR tend to be vague, and it is sometimes hard to see where complex characters, PC or NPC, would logically "fit," especially on the Law - Chaos axis. 2) So the priest of Thantos doesn't think of himself as evil. Neither did Hitler, Stalin, or Ted Bundy. Only cartoonish, snidely-whiplash style villans go around bragging about how evil they are. While they might not consider themselves absolutely pure, they always tend to consider their own actions fully justified under the circumstances. But that doesn't mean they are "good" in alignment terms, in a game sense. 3) Just one comment for how this relates IRL, and I'll leave it as an inscrutable quote. Make of it what you will: "O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended. " 'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?' 'Four' 'And if the Party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?' 4) A game based on heroism, which D&D doesn't *have* to be, does require acceptance, at least within the scope of the game, that their is a fundimental difference bettween good and evil (at least. Law/Chaos might also apply). This doesn't mean moral quandrys and delemas can't be introduced, or even that no sense of moral ambiguity can arrise. But it *does* mean that people can't or shouldn't be alowed to go around (characters, at least. Though hopefully you're not all sociopaths IRL either) and decide that whatever they decide to do is by a priori definition "good," acceptable behavior, and appropriate. I'll get off my soap box now. This became a significantly more extensive screed than I had initially planned, for which I make no appologies. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:25:33 +0000 From: acrmartins@sol.com.br Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan At 14:37 14/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >> This is a very interesting idea, Andre, and one which makes A LOT of >> sense. We have often discussed here the notion that "alignment" (i.e., >> morality) is relative, and that a priest of Thanatos seeking destruction >> would probably see himself as doing "good." Thanks, Jenn. I've seen many of these debates myself, that post was sent to MML during one of those, btw. >1) If you accept the above, then IMO alignments should be completely >dispensed with and eliminated from D&D (all systems). This is something I >have argued before, admitedly for other reasons (see below). The alignment >system is based on the assumption that their is such a thing as objective >moral & ethical standards (though the alignment descriptions given by TSR >tend to be vague, and it is sometimes hard to see where complex characters, >PC or NPC, would logically "fit," especially on the Law - Chaos axis. Not necesseraly. I don't use them in the sense that a PC should follow his alignment guidelines. All I want from characters is that they have some consistency in their actions, and I do accept changes. But alignment can be a wonderful tool for the Immortals and that's wgy they use it. Instead of having to personally contact your priests about m,orality issues, it is much easier to put an easy spell at their disposition that will do the job. Soon, they will understand your system and be able to make their own moral calls. And it is much stronger to label someone evil than to tell his ideas are wrong. Better manipulation, those Immortals who thought otherwise have lost their faithful very fast. >2) So the priest of Thantos doesn't think of himself as evil. Neither did >Hitler, Stalin, or Ted Bundy. Only cartoonish, snidely-whiplash style >villans go around bragging about how evil they are. While they might not >consider themselves absolutely pure, they always tend to consider their own >actions fully justified under the circumstances. But that doesn't mean they >are "good" in alignment terms, in a game sense. If you define alignment in a clear way, you are right. But that is not the point of this discussion. >4) A game based on heroism, which D&D doesn't *have* to be, does require >acceptance, at least within the scope of the game, that their is a >fundimental difference bettween good and evil (at least. Law/Chaos might >also apply). This doesn't mean moral quandrys and delemas can't be >introduced, or even that no sense of moral ambiguity can arrise. But it >*does* mean that people can't or shouldn't be alowed to go around >(characters, at least. Though hopefully you're not all sociopaths IRL >either) and decide that whatever they decide to do is by a priori >definition "good," acceptable behavior, and appropriate. This doesn't mean the characters won't have their morals. They will. I do think Thanatos is evil and would opose him if he existed (but I'd rather he would never figure that). But that is MY point of view, my morals. It doesn't change the fact that his priests will view the word in a different light from me. And I don't believe I have any more right to define right and wrong tha anyone else, even if I have strong feelings about it. You can still be a great hero, even if there are more than good and evil. Of course, I let the characters believe they are right about good and evil (I do trow a few unexpected things against it once in a while, though), because it is just natural they will believe strongly in their own moral systems. I just will have the NPCs define them as evil as well and they will have the oportunity to see it. André *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:22:20 PST From: "Jennifer Favia" Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Loki/Bozdogan James wrote: > 'And if the Party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?' Six. 8-)~ >4) A game based on heroism, which D&D doesn't *have* to be, does require >acceptance, at least within the scope of the game, that their is a >fundimental difference bettween good and evil (at least. Law/Chaos might >also apply). This doesn't mean moral quandrys and delemas can't be >introduced, or even that no sense of moral ambiguity can arrise. But it >*does* mean that people can't or shouldn't be alowed to go around >(characters, at least. Though hopefully you're not all sociopaths IRL >either) and decide that whatever they decide to do is by a priori >definition "good," acceptable behavior, and appropriate. I understand what you're saying; in fact, I think that we are both addressing the same point. I don't want to get into a long discussion on morality or ethical philosophies, but basically, as it applies to Hule, I find that moral absolutes make the setting much less interesting. To set up the nations or leaders of the East as "good" and Hosadus or Hule in general as "bad" makes a farce of the entire situation. That leaders on both sides, and the people of those respective nations, each see themselves as doing what is best for their people and nation--ergo, what is "right" or even "good"--gives the east-west tension another level. It removes the black-and-white easy way out for the players and opens up many more role-playing opportunities for player and DM. So the question here is not really if you follow the TSR alignment system, but HOW you follow it. If alignment is relative (a person may see himself as the IC equivalent of LG when someone who has been offended by his straightforwardness may see him as something else entirely), then it can take into account varying points of view. But, now that I've gone totally off-opic even though I promised not to ;-) ...I think that the original topic here was how to allow Hule its "chaotic" nature without also attaching the inferred "evil." Jenn valerya@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of mystara-digest V1997 #709 ******************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe mystara' as the body of the message.