========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:52:44 PST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Joshuan Gallidox Publishing Subject: Mystaran Almanac AC 1016 has been released Comments: To: mystara_french@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "Out of Aeons they will come When the Dragons will miss One. On Mystara they will rise Time and Spheres to terrorize. And when the Seas shall break again To show what Horrors lurk in pain, You will know that Time is near To meet the auld unending Fear." Has this last prediction from the Mystaran Almanac AC 1015 been fulfilled? Learn about this and more in the just released Mystaran Almanac, AC 1016. This almanac contains the full year in review, atlas and maps of many countries - some of which you most certainly never heard of before! -, and much more, in a 584 pages volume published by Joshuan Gallidox Publishing in Mirros, Karameikos. Available now for a mere price of one hundred royals from Joshuan Gallidox Publishing (check your local library for prices outside Mirros). _________________________________ Joshuan Gallidox Publishing publisher of the Mystaran Almanac http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 15:09:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Has Meltheim gone crazy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > WHAT!!! Why on Mystara would we have ANYTHING to do with these individuals??? There is no way we would stoop to such levels. Seems to me that YOU Thyatians were the last to use the Zzonga thing just before the war (and look where that got you), so don't go blaming us! It's more likely that you were the ones who couldn't control what little Zzonga you had (hrmph. Blaming us. How pathetic. These persons are too far beneath Mighty Alphatia!) :) > Also since Snafu (WotI) it,s literally true that both empires are beneath each other. However Alphatia is the one going round in circles! Hamlet I, v, 166 Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 15:09:17 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal timetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyhow, those are my disorganized musings on the matter. There's also the way that time was described in the 3rd of the 'Blood Brethren trilogy. Spoiler for HWA 1-3 below All of the immortals, with two exceptions, had travelled back to the beginning of time. Since when the PC's are granted a measure of Immortal power they too can travel back, probably all Immortals can Timetravel. IIrc however the 'Emerald River' (time stream?) can be viewed upriver but not altered even by Immortals. However since there are spells which can alter recent history, I wonder when this freezing actually takes effect. In OD&D wish can alter up to 24 hours previous so this seems a good limit to place. It also stops the 'I wish they'd never been born' cold, unless they REALLY were born yesterday. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 15:09:31 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Old Alphatia was destroyed when a dispute between factions of magical > study began. > > > Ahh, the uses of passive voice are many and profound 8-). > One might almost get impression that the world destroyed itself in an > unexpected upheaval. > Actually, as the Alphatians themselves admit in their own histories, the > followers of Air destroyed Old Alphatia. And not during the conflict, but > after they had emerged victorious from it (the Flame followers had revolted > against Alphaks and sued for peace). Finding their world somewhat worse for > wear after this petty dispute (in the sense of being unlovely, or at least > less pleasing to their eye), they had already decided to find someone > else's world to steal rather than put in the effort that would be required > to rebuild their own world. > So, like small children (which, from an ethical & philosophical > perspective, they were), they smashed their world to bits and took someone > else's - Mystara. > > - Vivianna Romanones, scholar and Magistrix, > commentary on the tome "...Of Ancient Empires" (author unknown) > Again, students, one can see that self appointed pomposity lives and breathes in Vivianna's writing. Romanones was know to all as a petty timeserver. One whose inept flattery saved the court the cost of a jester. People still speak of 'doing a Vivianna when they commit some truly crass social blunder (this is in reference to her incessant breaking of wind during a ceremony of silence for the honoured dead). Worth reading though for those quoted in reference, but remember to ignore any of the conclusions drawn by her. Excerpt from the introduction lecture for 1st year students at Sundsvall University. (copies available anywhere within the empire for a mere 10 crowns plus postage and packaging) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 15:09:40 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal timetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Next time I see a new topic on the list, It'll be the first time. *_+ > Would the search for a new topic count as a topic in itself? Who knows? Who cares? Happy New Year one and all! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 10:07:14 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Again, students, one can see that self appointed pomposity lives and > breathes in Vivianna's writing. Romanones was know to all as a petty > timeserver. > Of course, Paul's remarks weren't a "rebuttal" (since they never engaged what was written or tried to refute any of it). His remarks merely consisted of an ad-homenim personal attack, meant to discredit through character assassination. Sort of proves my point about certain types of Alphatiaphiles. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:03:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal timetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-01 10:09:11 Eastern Standard Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: > In OD&D wish can alter up to 24 hours previous so this seems a good limit to > place. It also stops the 'I wish they'd never been born' cold, unless they > REALLY were born yesterday. Another way to deal with that wish is to invoke the principle of magical economy and have the wish affect the caster (who does not save or resist) rather than the intended victim. Since the intended victim of this wish clearly was born in the current dimension/multiverse, the most efficient way to grant that wish would be to transport the caster to an alternate dimension/multiverse where the intended victim (and probably the caster as well) was never born. >From the point of view of the original dimension/multiverse, the net effect of such a wish is the immediate and permanent disappearance of the caster of the Wish. Once a couple of people are observed disappearing after making such wishes, word would spread that making wishes of that sort might be a very bad idea. >From the point of view of some alternate dimension/multiverse, the net effect of the wish is that a being from an alternate reality appears out of nowhere, with some major gaps in his memory (as he will have forgotten all about the being that he wanted to wish into non-existence and thus will not remember how or why he got from where he was to where he is). He may survive, or he may not -- but if he does survive, then he will have a lot that he must learn very quickly. Similar logic would apply to time travel into the past. If you go back and observe events without being observed -- no problem. However, if you attempt to alter the course of events as you know or remember it, then one of two things will happen: 1) You will be stopped, or 2) You will be lost to the current dimension/multiverse as you are shunted off to one where events unfolded more or less as you caused them to. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 12:17:45 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortaltimetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 2) You will be lost to the current dimension/multiverse as you are shunted > off to one where events unfolded more or less as you caused them to. > Interesting ideas, but they become problematic if a PC is involved (though I suppose his fellow adventurers could either cast another Wish or hire someone to cast one for them* to undo the affects of the first Wish and get their friend back) - not only does one want to avoid wholesale "modification" of the gameworld by Wish-happy characters, but completely disapearing them, in the case of PCs, seems overly harsh punishment. Though, on the other hand, one could organize an entire adventure out of retrieving the lost pal from whatever dimension/multiverse/alternate reality he or she got shunted off into. In the latter case, re. time travelling - if the party as a whole was involved, then two observations must be made: 1) Whether they modified the future of their "own" reality/dimension/multiverse or got "dumped" into a new one where events followed the course their meddling created will be indistinguishable to them, once they return to their "present". 2) If things worked out as they wanted, they would probably prefer the dimension/multiverse/reality they now find themselves in over their "real" one. In the later case, the DM is stuck with the same "problem" (put in quotation marks because depending on the nature of the campaign it might not be a problem at all) - the PCs actions have the (possibly) widespread impact on the gameworld that was described previously (the Glantri Gaz makes some provisions for this in the case of the Nucleus - if the PCs go back and get rid of it, Glantri never develops. Now if Glantri never develops, we never have WotI, since no one blows their cookies over the Radiance, etc. This sends out ripples that affect a lot of places, and not just because of no WotI, but most of Glantri's neighbors are affected. Etc). Now the PCs are in a "new" dimension, and since the campaign usually focuses around the player characters, where they go the campaign follows - thus the solution of dumping the party (again assuming they all went back into the past. Players do tend to travel in packs. If only a few did, then we might have the option refered to above - where the rest go on an adventure to retrieve their friends from the dimension they got deposited in. On the other hand, the "rescue team" just might be convinced by the others that the new dimension is preferable to the "real" one). This means the DM might yet be faced with redrawing the campaign world. A prospect some would want to avoid, but others might enjoy. However, to do it "right" it would probably require a significant amount of work, which might entail putting the campaign in question on hold while the DM develops the "alternate reality" that has become the campaigns new setting. The alternative to that would be to do everything hastily by the seat of one's pants (and inevitably being overly "guided" by what the players "helpfully suggest" should happen, when one should probably do one's best to twist things to insure they aren't completely satisfied by the result.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 18:49:43 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Of course, Paul's remarks weren't a "rebuttal" (since they never engaged > what was written or tried to refute any of it). His remarks merely > consisted of an ad-homenim personal attack, meant to discredit through > character assassination. > > Sort of proves my point about certain types of Alphatiaphiles. > Sorry never been one, except as part of being a Mystaraphile. The rebuttal was meant to show how academia world deal with your commentary for those who ARE alphatian. From personal knowledge of RW academia, it was actually a polite dismissal of the commentary. Personal attacks are another kettle of fish entirely. If you are going to engage in in-character academic one upmanship then be prepared for varying levels of agreement in character in return. Just to be clear about this, I am not declaring any sort of flamewar here. Just reserving the right to respond in character upon occasion. Hamlet I, v, 166 Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 13:23:36 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Sorry never been one, except as part of being a Mystaraphile. > I appologize to all Alphatiaphiles for comparing them to you, then. > The rebuttal was meant to show how academia world deal with your commentary > for those who ARE alphatian. From personal knowledge of RW academia, it was > actually a polite dismissal of the commentary. > Having been in academia myself, I think your opinion of how scholars would handle an exchange is rather low. Most are much more substantive than you were. > Personal attacks are another > kettle of fish entirely. If you are going to engage in in-character academic > one upmanship then be prepared for varying levels of agreement in character > in return. > Fine - please debate on substance, though; I re-read your "rebuttal" (again, you use the word improperly, for there was no effort to rebut the remarks) twice: once after I wrote my reply, just to make sure I wasn't over reacting (as I sometimes do), and once again after getting this message. My response to your so-called "rebutal" was appropriate. Yours? Hmpf - if that was your version of how people behave in an academic setting, you've been hanging around middle-school bathrooms, not scholarly seminars. References to bodily functions, et al do not an argument (or counter-argument) make, sir. > Just to be clear about this, I am not declaring any sort of flamewar here. > Just reserving the right to respond in character upon occasion. > So you say. I'm responding to your words and actions, not your claims of innocence. Your claim to the right to be able to "respond" with what can only be described as insults of a personal nature, of no merit and substance, which add nothing to the conversation, is a bit weak. But I'm a fair man. I'm the reformed me. I don't want to get drawin into a dispute: you point out one sentance (or, how about this for fair: one phrase) in your post that serves as an actual "rebuttal" to the substance of my "V.R." post, and I'll appologize to you. If you can't, then I'll let your remarks stand as the best testiment of your character, and this will be the last I'll say about your post - I've already given it far more attention than it deserves in any case. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 13:51:41 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortaltimetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > 2) If things worked out as they wanted, they would probably prefer the > > dimension/multiverse/reality they now find themselves in over their "real" > > one. > > Not necessarily -- after all, by the time anyone has the power to be casting > "Wish" spells, he or she should have considerable power and influence in > that game world. All that is lost when the reality shift occurs, as the PCs > will have no "past" in their new world. > Well, it would depend on the changes the Wish created, wouldn't it? Lets say a PC builds up a nice estate near the Radlebb woods, just north of Rillifan & south of Verge. She's got everything she ever wanted - nice house, stables, hot & cold running stableboys, etc. It's great. But then she gets into a feud with Bargle the Infamous and decides to *poof* him out of existance. She then gets shunted into the Alternate Reality where Bargle never existed - all the stuff Bargle had affected are altered. But if she (the PC) never had any dealings that impacted with Bargle before the feud broke out, and he never had an impact in setting up her estate, then it probably would exist in more or less the same way as she is familiar with. But I donno - these sorts of paradoxes & quandaries are precisely what makes altering events (poofing people from existance, travelling back in time with the intention of changing things one way or the other) such a mess, even from a looking-in-from-the-outside as gamers instead of characters perspective. > > But if there are enough appropriate rumors going around among wizards, > causing somebody who makes a malicious wish to disappear from the > campaign would not be unfair. For example, the description in the PHB > of what might happen if somebody wishes somebody else dead provides > an excellent precedent for my suggestion about dealing with wishing that > somebody had never been born. > None the less, we also have to recognize that these warnings you refer to have been in the various published materiels since the begining, as well as in folklore on the potential dangers of Wishes, but still very smart people in this forum bring up the possibility of using Wishes in such a fashion - perhaps because they know or think they know how to phrase it "so things won't go wrong this time." Archmages being rather assured of their own capabilities, I'd bet the same thing happens in the "real world" of Wishing on Mystara (or time travel/Chronomancy, etc) a lot - "those other dudes screwed up, I know why, it won't happen to me, I've solved the problem of phrasing it properly." Since travel into the future will not make > the required alteration and travel to the past would create the potential > for more mischief, the only place left to send the caster is into an alternate > reality. > > Still, most players could be deterred from such a wish by the dreaded > question "Are you sure that is what you want to do?" > Most, hopefully, can be detered by such warnings and also the DM pointing out some of the other problems that might result, but usually when players resort to this kind of method of problem solving it isn't because they lack creativity, it's usually because they have tried everything else they can think of and feel their backs are up against the wall - they don't think any other solution can work. Of course, the DM probably knows where the foe has weaknesses the PCs can exploit, and may even feed the PCs such "suggestions" through the mouths of NPC advisors, friends, hangers on, henchmen, followers, whoever - but for whatever reason the player doesn't heed the advice (perhaps having taken similar advice from the same people only to see the foe defeat it). *Most* players don't first resort to massive use of Wishes to solve the problem they face (since that takes away from their own enjoyment of playing through it, if for no other reason). It's the extreme cases where they do, and in those cases their answer to the above question is probably "no, it isn't my first choice, but it looks like my last best hope. It's worth a shot, anyhow - nothing else to lose." (or at least that's how they feel at the time). > -- with that question > asked in the same tone that you would use when a player with no ability > to fly or levitate announces the intention for his player character to hurl > himself over the edge of a cliff. If he does not come to his senses, then > it is perfectly fair to inform him that his character has gone "splat!" > True; it's mostly those instances where the whole party is involved that I was concerned with - if some dude (or a couple dudes) lose their characters, you can say "well, tough - the rest of the party can bail you out if they're so inclined." (thus the adventures to rescue so-and-so from the Dimension of pits or the Dimension of the 'Burbs or wherever). It's just those instances where the whole party jumps off the proverbial cliff, which usually isn't in anyone's interest (but can happen) - finding ways out of that sort of quandary is much better than "well, time for everyone to roll up new characters." (well, unless they're repeat offenders, and think they can get away with it if they all join hands. Then I guess they need to face "tough love".) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 19:01:03 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal timetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Killing then and there with a wish should work as you could mimic a lesser spell with the rider of automatically fail save. This actualy causes less magical colateral damage than all the time/plane travelling options. It doesn't work on others with wish for their first wish is that such a spell will not work. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 20:36:59 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a joke dumbass. BTW the previous comment was directed at you! It was personal against the character you had assumed, NOT against you. If you have difficulty telling the difference then seek professional help! As a side note If you've ever been in a fight for tenure you'll have seen just the sort of remarks I used happen often. Apologies to all others on the list for my language. Hamlet I, v, 166 Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 14:37:36 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortaltimetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Killing then and there with a wish should work as you could mimic a lesser > spell with the rider of automatically fail save. > True, to a point. The reason people resort to the "I Wish he never existed" stuff or time travel if that is out of line (as some rules on Wishes make it) is because "merely" Wishing someone dead leads to the usual potential problems - the target can be restored to life. If the target's body is unavailable he or she might have left cloning materiel behind. Or in extreme cases (such as the ones that started the musings along these lines) someone can Wish them back alive. If you remove them from the time stream entirely, then presumably no one will be able to revive them, since they'll never think of it (they never knew of such a person, since that person never existed, so they aren't aware that anything happened). Only the people who made the change know what happened, and it's in their interest not to let anyone know. Plus, one could make a case that as soon as they make the change, their memorys will fade/change to reflect the new reality they created - thus they too aren't aware of what happened (though in the case of the Nucleus example from the Glantri Gaz it implys that they do know what they did, because it allows for them going back again to stop themselves once they find out that by eliminating the Nucleus they got rid of Glantri as well). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:50:34 GMT Reply-To: lyndon@pobox.com Sender: Mystara From: Lyndon Baugh Subject: timetravelling. In-Reply-To: <023d01a8eaa7$24968380$3d8975c2@pauldool> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And happy Friday, January 4th, 1980 to you too! Just curious if the date was on purpose ... it is appropriate for this subject! Lyndon the Lurker On Fri, 4 Jan 1980 19:01:03 -0000, you wrote: >Killing then and there with a wish should work as you could mimic a = lesser >spell with the rider of automatically fail save. This actualy causes = less >magical colateral damage than all the time/plane travelling options. It >doesn't work on others with wish for their first wish is that such a = spell >will not work. > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:26:01 -0800 Reply-To: gwxup@excite.com Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Civ II & Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello MMLers, The digests for the last two days had messages talking about using Civ II for Mystara. I had done some preliminary work with it but had just barely started. If anyone does do one I definately hope you will let the list know. I know that some one (Solymyr?) did some great Civ II maps of Mystara. I'm a long time fan of Civ II and I just got Civ II Test of Time for Christmas, while I'm still exploring the game it looks like the fantasy setting has four maps in one: a surface world, a cloud world, a undersea world, and a underground, all in one game. Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html P.S. now that the "day of Dread" is over, when will we see the new net almanac? _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:24:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [ADMIN] Happy Holidays from the List Ogre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, I think this holiday season has been the busiest in many years for me. From my birthday on the 19th (and my girlfriend's on the 18th) through Christmas shopping, spending time with family and ending last night with drunken debauchery (just a little). Because of this I haven't had much time to spend online, mostly doing what I could to keep up with mail on the MML.. So, while it is a little late, I want to wish everyone happy holidays. I also want to thank everyone that sent me holiday greetings and e-cards, homemade or otherwise. I tend to get some each year, but this year I got over two dozen from MML folk! That's why no one has recieved a personal response from me, for which I am sorry. But I really do appreciate your thoughts during this time of year. Thanks everyone. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 17:46:39 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 Comments: To: gwxup@excite.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > P.S. now that the "day of Dread" is over, when will we see the new net > almanac? > It was released this morning and can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 17:48:12 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Civ II & Mystara Comments: To: gwxup@excite.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm a long time fan of Civ II and I just got Civ II Test of Time for > Christmas, while I'm still exploring the game it looks like the fantasy > setting has four maps in one: a surface world, a cloud world, a undersea > world, and a underground, all in one game. > That might be worth checking out - I hadn't got ToT yet, but with the "layers" one could do the surface, the undersea, the hollow world, and the tunnels in between (SEs & Shaltenalfen, Dwarves, B-Lands, etc). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:50:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: timetravelling. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:50:34 Lyndon Baugh wrote: >And happy Friday, January 4th, 1980 to you too! > Just curious if the date was on purpose ... it is appropriate >for this subject! > >Lyndon the Lurker > > >On Fri, 4 Jan 1980 19:01:03 -0000, you wrote: > (rest snipped) < Well, I do believe that certain individuals have tried to circumvent the much-feared curse known as the 'Y2K bug', while I, of course, am an Alphatian (and probably an 'Alphatiaphile', too) and do not need to make such alterations to my magical items to ensure their survival :) Still, I think you can relax people. Although, there HAVE been some minor incidents (one in France and a couple in Spain from what I've heard), but they are *EXTREMELY* minor and were very quickly corrected - it was all speculation and hysteria, so you can all rest now. I'm *QUITE* certain that none of our computers will not blow up in our faces (well, none of mine did). - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:46:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Descriptions of TSR modules? In-Reply-To: <19991228.222745.-213559.0.djemonk@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:27 PM 12/28/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Does anyone else care about this? If not, then I'll just look elsewhere, >but if other people think that this is a good idea, let me know. This sounds interesting, and I'd be willing to help you out with it, if you decide to follow up on this. I've got quite a bit of the products, as well (I've just recently posted a resource library on my web page at http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cthulhudrew/mystara.html) so let me know if you need some help on this project. :) Andrew ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 03:51:33 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just to be clear about this, I am not declaring any sort of flamewar here. > Just reserving the right to respond in character upon occasion. > So it's ok to flame people as long as you do it in character? -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:26:29 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes &Immortaltimetravelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > 2) If things worked out as they wanted, they would probably prefer the > > dimension/multiverse/reality they now find themselves in over their "real" > > one. > > Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > > Not necessarily -- after all, by the time anyone has the power to be casting > "Wish" spells, he or she should have considerable power and influence in > that game world. All that is lost when the reality shift occurs, as the PCs > will have no "past" in their new world. > > > Still, I would be skeptical about the idea that a reality where Bargle never > existed could have aspects that are mostly unaffected for anyone who > lives in Karameikos -- Bargle has affected far too many lives for that to > be the case. Just the continued existence of all the mages and other > adventurers he has killed would have profound effects on later history. > That's true, and was one of the things I was concerned with as well, because such big changes tend to make a mess of everything that's so hard to untangle. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:09:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Almanac MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I managed to get and (partially) read the first part of the Almanac, and I must say that I'm positively impressed by the improvements done, especially the wonderful Davanian section and the new focus on smaller regions in the KW section. Congratulations to the team! -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:42:55 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: new maps available!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I just posted the maps of Glantri that i drew. One is post WotI The other is Pre WotI. I hope you'll enjoy them.As always comments and feedback are welcome. Look also at the thumbnails of the maps that will be released in the next issue of the tome of mystara. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:51:12 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/99 2:31:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: [snipped agreement points] << Like their social differences, historical quirks are part of the appeal and individuality that offers the Mystaran kingdoms their distinct appeal.>> Of course. To take an IRL example, there are people who heartily dislike the Spanish or English or French empires, but admire the accomplishments of the Ottoman, Inca, or Aztec empires. And there are people who hold vice versa opinions.>> Which basically reproves the old addage that one man's villain is another's hero...which revives the problem of alignment and percieved alignments. [more snippage] <> You know that brings up an interesting point. The conversation between Terari/Tylion and Asterelia does involve him speaking about a period that surely burned his own hide a bit...he probably should have spiced his end up a bit to justify his actions. Also the conversation was a bit of a negotiations between Terari/Tylion and Asterelia...as he went about bringing her over to the Alpher way. Since she is a mixed Alpher/Thyatian person....the event is symbolic of the warring empires and their relationship with the IoD. Regardless...i think we are getting ahead of ourselves a bit regarding Terari/Tylion's part in this conversation. Looking at the history in DotE: Players Guide to Alphatia you'll see that except for an in-character intro to vaguely explain and justify matters, the actual historical material is IMO out of character. The material is offered in a straightforward manner and lacks the grammer and phonetics of the Terari/Tylion quotes. Albeit...one could rationalize that the material is a summarized layman's explaination of Terari/Tylion's recollection of Alpher history....however that's not truly specified. The way Tylion's role in Alpher history is handled in that material further lends me to believe that the info presented was not intended to be in-character. [snip] <> [snipped] once again social practices and concepts of right and wrong come into play. what we consider a war crime today was child's play back in olden times. vietnam was lost domestically by media coverage of a horrible war. imagine going back and televising WW1. the homefont would have screamed for a negotiated peace or total troop withdrawal. even in WW2, it wasn't until later in the war at D-Day that publicized combat footage showed dead American soldiers. as for looting, raping, and pillaging these were part of the payoff for an ancient army. back then, the enemy was the enemy and you didn't worry about them once the city gates had been breached. back then it was part of the right of conquest and the spoils of war. such premises are totally alien to modern christian morality based society. for Mystarans, we are playing a medeival/rennaissance period fantasy game with the player perspective of modern christian morality. therefore our good aligned pcs are operating under contemporary christian ideals. and i am sure that a few hundred years down the road, a future earth culture will think our recent "civilized" wars to be horrid acts. anyway...i don't see how the Alphers would downplay the destruction of their homeworld. two thousand years have obviously provided ample time for added rationalization and blame for the whole matter can be squarely placed on the Fire Mages for starting the war. and i am sure that the Flaems can produce similar arguments/explanations to support their own role in the war. i don't know though...i still have to think that arrogant Alpher mages would be a bit boastful at destruction on such a planetary level. time would have made the old homeworld a remote legend....even a paradise lost. perhaps their regret stems from the lessening of their magical power they had once had. <> an old addage....one that has surface in RPGs, tv, and literature works. i make no secret of my favoring DotE era Alphatia. IMO the Alphers are an ideal catalyst to promote adventures and to provide a widespread adventuring setting. also...the "child-like" tag has always bothered me a bit. IMO a mage needs a certain degree of discipline to study magic and surely that discipline would carry over in everyday life. i am not saying that alphers would be normal and conservative...just that there would not be a nation of Zandors running about. IMO the Alphers have been overly stereotyped as child-like instead of adhering to being chaotic. similarly, Thyatis has suffered a similar fate, with its heroic, efficient, and at times corrupt personna being replaced by ineptness and widespread loathing. << That's true - but that doesn't mean that the aforementioned "barbarian races" wouldn't have an opinion and express it. Certainly not all this gushing and fauning over the Alphatians that seems to occur all to often.>> one of the reasons i favor a preWrath Alphatia is that the Alphers were basically racially isolated and really did not have to explain themselves to the barbarians. the exceptions were NW and the IoD where other peoples came into play. Wrath saw some strange revelations. certain barbaric peoples were catered to while others were ignored for plot reasons. postWrath sees the Alphers more dispersed among the barbaric peoples, forcing more interaction and the need to explain themselves and being alphatian. unfortunately the PWAs started a more light handed trend in this interaction than one would expect. <> "disgruntled minds" may be the more appropriate tag. btw- sorry for the flagrant lack of proper capitalization. as some of you know i had hand surgery a few days ago. my right hand now has four shiny surgical steel pins in it and is encased in a cast. anyway i am having to type one handed, so the capitalization thing is not intended to be agitating....just a temporary neccessity. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:51:20 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/99 3:52:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > > Which brings up a personal beef of mine. The enemy is usually portrayed as > being stupid. IMO this degrades the acheivement of the protagonists and > downplays the glory and sense of opposition. > Well, it's a beef we've both shared, and both alternately accused each other of commiting the sin and commiserated about it in some instances. Mine range from Alphatia's strategy during the Wrath War (should it have been that easy to destroy much of their skyship fleet, along with one of their most important cities? - a beef I know you share. If Glantri was their primary target, should they have invaded Heldann {with an alliance with Ethengar}, then gone straight to Glantri, instead of doing the "juggernaut" thing and continuing to wage a war of attrition with Thyatis, which could have been bypassed once the IoD had fallen), to Thyatis' activities after the WotI war itself (especially the bonehead non-strategy vs. Thothia - Thyatis tended to be portrayed as an inert mass, subject to events rather than creatively engaging things).>> well....it is only natural to favor one side over another. in many ways it is like playing yourself in chess or tic-tac-toe. intentionally or unintentionally you are going to end up favoring one side over the other. the events in Wrath were designed and scripted to alter preWrath Mystara to justify the rise of Karameikos, castration of Thyatis, and the removal of a "unified" Alphatian people. strategically, tactically, and politically the war was handled pretty badly. IMO the Thyatians alliance with Glantri was weakly justified. the Glantri/HK alliance being more difficult to take (warrior clerics allying with heretict mages). i could have possibly see an alliance had the Ethie allied with the Alphers....but that never happened. of course all of these alliances were scripted to balance out the sides and to achieve the postWrath goals. [snip] << Operation Hydra.... Anyhow, well - I'm not sure I'm impressed with the strategy of any of the participants: not that they behave stupidly (as such), but they all repeat the same general sin - division of forces. Inattnention to economy of force. Attacking too many targets near-simoultaniously (and thus not really being able to support each other). As for the Thyatians, I would have concentrated on a two-stage offensive: three initial task forces (one to secure Open Island, one to neutralize Fire Island, and the third to screen off any attempt by Minrothad to re-enforce either); only after that was done would a force be sent to attack Trader's Island. And then I would have attacked either Harbortown or Minrothad City, but not both (a case can be made for attacking Harbortown first - it's easier to capture, and would then make a good base for overcoming the rest of the island. But the Diamond Spur mountain chain would limit its utility so ultimately I would focus on the main prize. Dunson Fell can be siezed quickly to establish a suitable outpost on that side of the island, then Minrothad besieged). This actually sounds very similar to the strategy the Thyatian forces follow, but only on the surface: in the above, multiple attacks are minimized, forces move in stages, and are thus able to provide mutual support to each other.>> For OpHydra I went with a simple and efficient means to have the Thyatians win. i wanted to avoid an overly complicated campaign as tactical masterstrokes would surely draw criticism for such an easy thyatian victory. i figured that Trader Island was the keystone to Thadder unity as a single people. therefore the two largest task forces were assigned to assault Harbortown and MinCity. the balance of the force was assigned to secure the logistical tie to the Thyatian mainland by securing a safe sealane. the dwarves and elven islands were seen as being less a priority with negotiation and logic overriding the need for a costly conflict. Harbortown was tagged for more immediate assault as i thought it the weaker target. MinCity was different, having more extravagant defenses....so i settled on a protracted siege once the two Trader Island cities are taken, Thyatian forces can consolidate their hold on the rural portions in a more leisurely fashion. originally i had planned to have the thyatian forces redeploy to MinCity for that assault. however, i later saw it as not being needed as the Thadder forces were actually pretty weak and horribly small even after giving them numbers boost per artistic license. << The 'Thadders do much the same thing, pissing away their forces, but I suppose they have a better excuse (since they're trying to defend, and for internal political reasons they can't be seen as abandoning any part of Minrothad and not protecting it). >> the Thadder waste of men was borne from several factors. first the thadders have limited numbers which have to cover the various islands and guild interests. second they are forced into having to attack due to enemy troops being on their soil. thyatian strategy nurtures this as seeing it better to engage the thadders out in the open instead of from the walls. third inexperience comes into play as the Thadders have not been involved in a war for some time. for their part the thadders do learn from their mistakes and make adjustments. however, imo the damage is done and probable would not have alterred matters too differently. <> you are correct, the NACE offensives were tacked on for two reasons. however, the cause was not one of animosity or retribution...though i had figured it would draw your attentions. first i wanted to offer a counter/cost for Eusebius taking MG (balance). second, i figured it a perfect opportunity to dissolve any preconceived notions that Nace was the NATO of Mystara. plus i figured that the nace would not just sit idly by while thyatian attentions are squarely placed elsewhere. as for them being everywhere at once this was another choice of symbolism. heavy use of magic and depleted (redeployed for OpHydra) thyatian military forces made victory easier. in many ways the Nace offensives were more akin to how wrath should have been handled. it also builds up a renewed distrust between nace and thyatis. regardless there is a disclaimer and alternative to this nace offensive given. the offensives are not needed. << Anyhow, that's my critique of Operation Hydra as such; I'm sure you have (and have had!) critiques of the stuff I describe others as doing. The point isn't to pile on you, but only to point out that we're all probably guilty of this offense (see below as to why).>> yep...admitedly OpHydra is designed to prove a Thyatian win over the Thadders. the military feat is not that awe inspiring. militarily MG sux as compared to the Thyatians. their key strengths are the Thadder navy and the daunting defenses. however, these strengths should have been recognized and countered. the navy was easiest, wear them down through attrition. > > In RPG terms, the antagonist force is portrayed as this juggernaught force that > the normal military of the > kingdom cannot quell. Yet heroes are called upon > to meet the threat....which they normally suceed in. > All of the above said, about both canon and non canon stuff, enemies behaving stupidly (or our guys, Erical-like, needing lots of help and seemingly unable to tie their own shoes without the help of the PCs), is that D&D isn't a strategy wargame - >> [snip] i agree that RPG and wargaming are two separate entities. i have done my share of both and both are quite entertaining. admitedly, OpHydra was not that much fun for me. the outcome had been decided before the first battle had been engineered. also, i was running both sides. combined, Hydra was more of a story than actual wargame. i did run the battles and the results reflect Warmachine (and Seamachine) results. i am split on roles that pcs can play in a war setting (e.g Wrath). part of me likes the idea of the pcs being able to sway the momentum of the war. however, imo pcs are designed to perform unusual services during war. the problem with this is that such missions could be ultimately vital to altering the war. imo fighting and winning the war is for the generals and fighting troops. plus i think that widesprerad war should be something beyond the grasp of the pcs. << So, sure, there were better options for Alphatia during the WotI war: but that would have interfiered with the intended outcome (nuke Alphatia, cripple Thyatis, empower Karameikos, put the SEs in the Canolbarth, and make the HKs look like heros) - It's a game, and not a wargame, so distortions have to occur and what we would think of as sound strategy or intelligent leadership sometimes has to take a back seat to the events, or (much more importantly, IMO) giving the PCs center stage.>> in Wrath i liked the way the pcs were kept separate from the events of the war. i was not as thrilled with how the war itself was run. obviously i would have run the war a tad bit differently. i wish that there were some canon armies stats for Alphatia and Thyatis (i don't like the Cohorts). if there were i'd run a few example scenarios. << You're right, though - intelligent opponents (and intelligent allies) make things much more interesting in the long run. But if Ericall can do it himself, then he doesn't need the PCs, and Mystara winds up governed by the Seven Sisters, Elminster, Azoun, etc - where the NPCs are the driving force. And if we wanted that, we'd play on that world. Some of us do, from time to time, from what I hear. >> agreed....there has to be something for the pcs to do. opponents should be intelligent. whether they are an opposing army or an opposing lich. i do not know how many times i have seen a party defeat an opposing baddy because the DM ran the core opposition npcs rather badly. i remember that once we ran "City of Skulls" as a Mystaran humanoid stronghold in the BrokenLands. Our party wasn't powerful and our mission was not to involve us with the heavy weights. instead we were more later told that the DM had hoped that we would get captured and be part of the hook for the main pcs to get involved. things got out of hand and the recon mission became a kill/sweep adventure. thanks to the DM's management we waded through the ranks "stupid" Noids and even managed to take down some powerful NPCs. we racked up some major XPs, coinage, and a few magical tidbits. had we not run out of arrows and spells we may have run the entire stronghold. despite all we had gained, we did not have alot of fun. later, we reran the adventure with our mainstream PCs. the differences were adding an additional DM and more opposition. the second DM was me and i took the job to run the npcs. my own pcs were explained as being attached to our other pc group and securing passage out of the broken lands. i am not trying to toot my own horn, but with me running them the baddy npcs wore down the pcs. things got so bad that the pcs used a scroll of communication to contact the other pc party for reinforcements my three main pcs remained outside to cover the egress and tend to the horses. i gave away my two minor pcs. the group completed its mission and freed the needed captives plus a few others to boot. The cost was high though. not including the three pcs of mine i held back, there were something like sixteen pcs used in all. of these only 6 or 7 made it out alive. admitedly a couple were recovered and later raised. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:04:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Theft on the Day of Dread... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, Well, in the spirit of the holiday I thought I would design a little adventure. (By the way did the Day of Dread happen this year...I didn't feel a thing...). I got to thinking, "What happens at the Great Library in Glantri on the Day of Dread?" They have lots of rare tomes and perhaps even the odd magical artifact for study in there, and they seem to take some heavy magical precautions against theft. What happens when their magical precautions don't work on the Day of Dread? - All doors/windows/other openings are created with the use of passwall magic (or some variant), therefore on the DoD, the Tower seals up tight. No opennings at all. - An extra dimensional space is opened where all rare tomes, and items are placed the day before the DoD. On the first of Newmont, everything is replaced. - Non-magical (mundaner) guards are of course, placed in the Tower to watch over things while th emagic does not work. If anyone can think of any other/better ideas, I would love to hear them. The plan for the adventure is to have a group of theives break into the Library, on or before the DoD, wait until magic fails, then steal the items they are after and leave before the wizards come back. Is this task possible, or not? What would be worth stealing from the Library? Again, if you have ideas, let's hear them. Thanks, John. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:13:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Boese Subject: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Howdy, all; it's been a little while since I've been subscribed, but now that Y2K has passed and my freenet account is still working after all, and now that I'm actually going to be writing things for the 1017 Almanac, I thought it would be a good idea to rejoin the list. So, to start things off, I have two questions: First - would somebody mind pointing me to references about the Free City of Dunwick (on the Savage Coast), the Hollow Moon, or that large area of Brun north of the Savage Coast (eg the 'Yalag River', etc)? Online items and officially published works would both be useful. Second - I'm just curious, is there anything you'd like to see in the next Almanac, in general or in particular? I have some ideas of my own, but I'd like to know what you think. Thank you for your time, -- Daniel Boese, 1017 contributer and general RPG addict ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 00:15:01 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everything old is new again. www.constantinople.net > and lacks the grammer and phonetics of the Terari/Tylion quotes. Albeit...one > could rationalize that the material is a summarized layman's explaination of > Terari/Tylion's recollection of Alpher history....however that's not truly > specified. The way Tylion's role in Alpher history is handled in that > material further lends me to believe that the info presented was not intended > to be in-character. > True that it lacks his "speaking tone" voice, but who's to say he didn't have her read something he wrote (or an Alph historian he likes wrote)? I tend to take all the "History of X as the Player's Know it" stuff to be "in character" - even if not in the "voice" of a specific individual, one has to take what is said with a grain of salt. Certainly one shouldn't read the Player's History of Alphatia as the unvarnished truth - it's factually accurate (as DotE says), but far from neutral in tone - it presents things in the light the Alphatians would, favorable to them and dismissive of non-Alphatians. Appropriate for a History from the point of view of Alphatian characters (player or otherwise), but not without its limitations. That was in part my point - it then allows for "re-interpretations" - which may be factually identical but certainly vastly different in tone and context. > > < episode where the children can "will" anything they want to happen, and abuse > their power. . .>> > > an old addage....one that has surface in RPGs, tv, and literature works. i > make no secret of my favoring DotE era Alphatia. IMO the Alphers are an ideal > catalyst to promote adventures and to provide a widespread adventuring > setting. > Well, I liked it back then as well, before it got ruined and the ambiguity got drained away. I tended to like both Empires (though favoring the Thyatian over the Alphatian) because they were, IMO, more socially complex - having things one might admire as well as aspects that were disreputable or even wicked. Often the other Gaz's (with the noitable exception of the other really popular one, Glantri) presented almost idealized societies - those parts of which were negative being clearly the "villianous" portions that were distinct from the "good" mainstream. In both Alphatia and Thyatis the good co-existed along with the bad, often in the same person. IMO, later interpretations ruined Alphatia for me because this ambiguity got excised over time. Many of those who like Alphatia gradually re-interpreted the DotE materiel to put Alphatia in a more favorable light (thus their legal system isn't a-priori bad, their treatment of slaves and servants is benign, etc. etc.) We've gone around and around on this point time and again and there is no point in doing so again because we simply don't see eye to eye on this, nor is it worth getting into with the other "Alphatiaphiles" for similar reasons. > Zandors running about. IMO the Alphers have been overly stereotyped as > child-like instead of adhering to being chaotic. similarly, Thyatis has > suffered a similar fate, with its heroic, efficient, and at times corrupt > personna being replaced by ineptness and widespread loathing. > Well, "child like" is a bit overmuch for Alphatia as a whole. I think their "tantrum" over the Old Alphatia Air/Flame war can be characterized as childish, but that's not the same as declaring all of Alphatian history or all of Alphatian society or all Alphatians as childish (as for the nobility, narcissistic would be appropriate, but even that would be a broad generalization that ignores those members of their nobility that are concentious - clearly if it weren't for such persons there wouldn't be an Alphatian Empire, and their is.) Now, what someone like "Vivianna" says in for example the "Tale of Two Empires" is another thing all together, written as a polemic (and I admited as much at the time) - but hardly any more or less out of line than the commonly found pro-Alphatian in-Character "histories of this or that". Distortive to be true, and though broadly reflective of my own opinion it isn't completely so. > > one of the reasons i favor a preWrath Alphatia is that the Alphers were > basically racially isolated and really did not have to explain themselves to > the barbarians. the exceptions were NW and the IoD where other peoples came > into play. Wrath saw some strange revelations. certain barbaric peoples were > catered to while others were ignored for plot reasons. > See my other comments re. plot stuff, wherin I come down on the side of "its ligitimate, kind of, to mess with things for the purpose of developing the plotline." One could always put the "proper" slant on things - from Eriadna's point of view their is much to gain and little to loose from indulging Stefan: she guarantee's he's out of the war, and by doing so insures that the rest of the world slumbers and doesn't join any "anti-Alphatia Crusade" the way they did against the Master. Alphatia's threat to most of these nations is, on the face of it, as great or greater than Hule's (Alphatia happily ignores Ylaruam's soverignity when they need to - something Alphatia isn't concerned about because the Ylari after all *are* barbarians, but which *could* have led to recognition of the danger if everyone paid closer attention to that, and the ramifications that it had for all the other nations Alphatia would have to cross to get to Glantri, and indeed the threat it posed to everyone in the region if Alphatia won). That can be seen as a nifty piece of Diplomacy on her part - by being generous to Stefan, by signing a treaty (and appearing to "obey the rules"), it kept the war a largely Alphatian-Thyatian thing that the rest of the KW didn't think they were or should be involved in. That doesn't mean she respected Stefan or any other non-Alphatian barbarian (though Eriadna is somewhat of an exception to the Alphatian rule), all it meant that she was using sound strategy to achieve her goals. Who knows? Had they won, she might have later gobbled up Karameikos as well (after all, one doesn't have to respect an agreement with uncivilized people) - but events meant Alphatia wasn't around for the aftermath, so we'll never know. > > "disgruntled minds" may be the more appropriate tag. > That's true. We're both disidents and heretics. But we have diferent heresies so we end up castigating each other for being non believers just as often (or more often) than we do our Orthodox (or, rather, "Dupuisian") foes 8-). (this segment meant as humor, btw. Only partly serious here). > btw- sorry for the flagrant lack of proper capitalization. as some of you > know i had hand surgery a few days ago. my right hand now has four shiny > surgical steel pins in it and is encased in a cast. anyway i am having to > type one handed, so the capitalization thing is not intended to be > agitating....just a temporary neccessity. > Owch. Well get well soon. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:20:13 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > well....it is only natural to favor one side over another. in many ways it is > like playing yourself in chess or tic-tac-toe. intentionally or > unintentionally you are going to end up favoring one side over the other. the > events in Wrath were designed and scripted to alter preWrath Mystara to > justify the rise of Karameikos, castration of Thyatis, and the removal of a > "unified" Alphatian people. > ......... . .which then they weren't sure what to do with so they ended up bundling them all back into more or less the same Empire (just part of it was ruling the skies of the HW while the rest of it was restored on the surface in almost the same form). Wrath wasn't really a bad deal for the Alphatians. What made them so different from what they were in DotE was how they were handled in 1) Champions of Mystara (though only a little bit there) & the Voyage of the Princess Ark more generally and 2) in subsiquent materiels, mainly the PWAs & JA. The Alphatians of those are sort of "looking glass" Alphatians, IMO - it's like we were dumped into one of the Alternate Realities we were talking about, where everyone was recognizable but with subtle (and not so subtle) changes. One wonders who messed with the timestream and how, but since things were different it's hard to remember when they were the same and notice what caused the "shift." Getting back a bit to some of the stuff I mentioned in my other post - Wrath made me a stronger supporter of Thyatis since I rooted for the underdog a bit (a lot) & didn't like the trend. The PWAs (especially II, III, and JA) hardened my outlook (probably too much, but it keeps getting re-enforced instead of fading, because of. . .well, stuff I shouldn't get into), because IMO it made the Alphatians caricatures of themselves - they became extreme versions of themselves: Eriadna became not only wise but just and caring, concerned about the welfare of barbarians. Zandor became a total flake and crazed moron (where before he was a dangerously intelligent psychopath, smart). Alphatians discovered a previously unknown love of democratic institutions and decided they should be egalitarians with their barbarian slaves, etc. This was, to me, distasteful because it ruined what Alphatia was and made it into something new and "Barneyesque". > > strategically, tactically, and politically the > war was handled pretty badly. IMO the Thyatians alliance with Glantri was > weakly justified. the Glantri/HK alliance being more difficult to take > (warrior clerics allying with heretict mages). > I don't disagree. Plus, rather than aid each other, two thirds of the time the "allies" were on strange, pointless crusades that were strategic side shows at best and detracted from the main business. > i could have possibly see an > alliance had the Ethie allied with the Alphers....but that never happened. > That "gap" was too absurd for me to ignore, as anyone familiar with how I handled Wrath already knows (the Ethie alliance became a key one for Alphatia, though again their goals went unsatisfied because of Rad's dangerous meddling with things best left unmeddled with). > of > course all of these alliances were scripted to balance out the sides and to > achieve the postWrath goals. > Mostly for the latter, since the sides were never "balanced" by them - the defections of Ochalea & Pearl Islands weakened Thyatis and were also not well explained (especially since the patron of the P.I's was on Rad's side, and thus one would think he'd have encouraged strong participation vs. Alphatia), the HKs & Glantri contributed essentially nothing to the war effort against Alphatia until very late, when HK participation in the battles in and around Thyatis was needed so that they could emerge from the war as "heros" (a outcome that was thankfully ignored/forgotten in later products). The better alliance for Thyatis to activate, after the fall of the "head" of the IoD at least, was Ostland - listed as a Thyatian "ally", they obviously could not have contributed that much in troops (though Northmen are reputedly tough fighters and good sailors), they'd have made a good "blocking point" and base for Thyatian fleets attempting to prevent the Alphatians from reaching the mainland. No, again - strategy took a back seat to plotline, the alliances not being "balanced" (balance might have required the Alphatians face a rebellion in Esterhold, rather than Thyatis facing defections from its provinces, and certainly requiring Thyatis' allies to participate more in the war effort itself), but rather designed to achieve the postWrath goals. And, as I said this in and of itself isn't an entirely bad thing - though for (different) aesthetic reasons neither of us like it. As I said in a post a couple weeks ago, this isn't Thucididies "Peloponesian War," it's an RPG, and story trumps "realistic" strategy. The "best" strategy IMO isn't even the one I used (wherin a lot of fighting did take place on the IoD) - the "best" strategy for Alphatia would have been to almost ignore Thyatis (simply defend on the IoD or do some probes/strikes against Thyatian positions to keep them off balance): land troops in Norwold. Sure, Norwold goes into Civil Disorder during the war, but the Alphatian forces can either ignore that too, or win it quickly for Ericall (he wins it in the end with little help, so he could likely win it big if they had to help). Sweep down through Heldann, ally with the Ethengari against Glantri, and win the war in a year or at most two while not spending a lot of time and troops in a war of attrition against Thyatis. > > For OpHydra I went with a simple and efficient means to have the > Thyatians win. > I'm not criticising either their swift victory or them not winning faster, just the strategy they (and everyone else) uses - IMO, it has them dividing their forces too much and trying to achieve too many goals all at once. A more deliberate advance would have been sounder operationally. > i wanted to avoid an overly complicated campaign as tactical > masterstrokes would surely draw criticism for such an easy thyatian > victory. > 1) IMO, the Thyatian deployment is overly complicated from a strategic point of view: concentration of forces would have been better. At one point I lost track of how many task forces the Thyatians had divided themselves into. My point is they should have gone after their objectives by stages: first securing the route to Trader's Island, then focusing on one of its cities first, and only later the other (and the island as a whole). Of course, unless Minrothad recieved re-enforcements, the Thyatian forces weren't in much danger of being defeated. *But* since they were separated into a variety of forces, none of which were really positioned to support any of the others, Thyatis was always in danger of suffering an embarassing defeat which, for political reasons, might have meant a failure of the war as a whole. 2) On the other hand, this is exactly what you have NACE/Alphatia doing on the IoD - a wide-ranging campaign that achieved what could only be described as not only tactical but strategic masterstrokes, resulting in an easy victory. The latter isn't the grounds I'm criticising, though; once again it is division of forces - the Alphatians/NACE pursue more goals at once than the Thyatians do, operating separate forces from Gaity & Aegos to Dunadale City & Newkirk, none of which could re-enforce the other in the event that something happened. As such they are/were technically vulnerable to being defeated piecemeal. Only the plot prevented that from happening - see, events do trump strategic soundness in a RPG game. Even when we're the ones scripting them 8-). > > you are correct, the NACE offensives were tacked on for two reasons. > however, the cause was not one of animosity or retribution...though i > had figured it would draw your attentions. > Though again I'm not objecting so much to *that* it happened as to *how* it happened. And though IMO the rapidity of their success is almost satirical, that too isn't my foremost objection, for which see above. > > first i wanted to offer a counter/cost for Eusebius taking MG (balance). > At first I thought of bypassing this since I thought it was off the subject, but on second thought, since were talking about portraying "the enemy" as intelligent or not, it's worth getting into. As far as that goes, on balance giving up the entire Isle of Dawn (or at least the Thyatian half of it) for Minrothad is a bad deal all around (especially since the 'Thadders aren't Thyatian, while at least the inhabitants of the western half of the IoD have been Thyatian for a millenium and are thus more likely to be and stay loyal). I tend to prefer compact nations over vast sprawling ones (though I never give an inch if I have something 8-) - but if I were Eusebius the only way I'd trade away the rest of the Empire (which is really what he's doing) would be if in addition to the MG I "got" Ierendi & Karameikos as well, *AND* without making a whole lot of new enemies, *AND* if I could count on them being at least as loyal to the Empire as the IoDers were (the Duke of Westrourke notwithstanding, the IoD as mentioned was loyal for a thousand years. I highly doubt the same could be said of Kara, Min & Ierendi). It's a bad trade, made worse from Eusebius' point of view by the fact that it enlarges Thyatis' most virulent enemies. But again, that being the outcome you wanted I don't criticize you for following it - how it happens is another matter, since we're talking about strategic blunders. The Thyatians are portrayed as meekly acquiescing to the loss of their territories on the Isle of Dawn to their worst enemies. They are portrayed as being caught completely off guard by the possibility the NACE/Alphatians would take advantage of their distraction with the Min thing. They are portrayed as being completely unaware of the possible use of magic on the battlefield, having done nothing in a thousand years to guard against it, counter act it, or develop their own magical potential to counter ballance it. And they are portrayed as being so incompetent that this all happens to them less than a week, and Eusebius is dealing with out of date reports (when commo in the Min invasion is fairly rapidly achieved). "Which brings up a personal beef of mine. The enemy is usually portrayed as being stupid. IMO this degrades the acheivement of the protagonists and downplays the glory and sense of opposition." But then again it's easy and useful as a plot device, so it is resorted to often by all of us, more often than we'd care to admit I bet. > > another choice of symbolism. heavy use of magic and depleted > That's another beef I have: because the Alphatians are magic heavy by comparison with other nations, their enemies (Thyatis in particular) are often portrayed as if they were magic poor. Again if this were the case one wonders why Thyatis ever existed in the first place. But this is perhaps a topic more suited for a thread of its own, so I'll leave it at that. > > yep...admitedly OpHydra is designed to prove a Thyatian win over the > Thadders. the military feat is not that awe inspiring. > True. IMO what keeps Thyatis from doing such things is probably "world opinion" (as if the WDL isn't enough for Thyatis to face, they hardly need to go around provoking everyone further by launching military land grabs against weaker states. Diplomacy ("treachery") to advance the Empire, as described in Test of the Warlords, is a better method, IMO. > i am split on roles that pcs can play in a war setting (e.g Wrath). part > of me likes the idea of the pcs being able to sway the momentum of the > war. however, imo pcs are designed to perform unusual services during > war. the problem with this is that such missions could be ultimately > vital to altering the war. imo fighting and winning the war is for the > generals and fighting troops. plus i think that widesprerad war should > be something beyond the grasp of the pcs. > The thing about Heroic Fantasy is that Bilbo Baggins and his merry band of misfits really can make a difference (shoot, now I'm having bad "Knight Ridder" flashbacks) - otherwise their isn't much point to it. Also this gets into one of my other pet peeves (I have many. Perhaps someday I should post a full and complete list): the downgrading of PC importance. PCs shouldn't affect this, shouldn't affect that, etc. because it isn't "realistic" for them to do so. Well, I'm here to tell you Alphatia isn't "realistic". Mages throwing fireballs, not realistic. Dragons aren't realistic. I don't play RPGs to re-create the same sense of futility and insignificance we can find in our every day life, but to escape it to some extent. Surely achieving great and glorious things shouldn't be easy. But the PCs *should* be heroic (or anti-heroic), if the players are interested in it. If the players are interested in trying to sway the course of major events (like wars), they should be allowed to try, and to have a fairly good chance of succeeding (the same chance they have of killing a huge & ancient dragon, which is also "not realistic" for puny humans to achieve, but does happen. Heck, it isn't realistic for those heros to have enough hit points to shrug off the dragon's breath, but tough, high-level PCs probably have as many if not more hit points than the dragon does!) Throw the ring into the volcano and Sauron just sort of peters out. . . .well, perhaps that *was* "all too easy. So was defeating the Empire's battle station with a lucky shot down an exaust pipe, or throwing the Emperor down into the reactor core, and the like. This sort of rousing achievement by a small band of motely, disreputable. . .heros. . .is the stuff of great fiction. Real? We don't go to Star Wars or Indiana Jones type movies or read Conan for "real" in that sense. It's fantasy not just because we can cast spells and bash orcs over the head, but because one person (or a half dozen) can achieve more than anyone could rationally be expected to achieve. To do otherwise is to put the PCs on the sidelines, and again then one may as well play in the Forgotten Realms and let Alustriel, Azoun, Elminster, Khelben, Drizzt, and the rest of them handle all the big projects while we stick up Kobolds to eek out a few copper pieces and hope the Harpers don't come around to put us in irons for it. > > agreed....there has to be something for the pcs to do. opponents should > be intelligent. > Well, I do think we agree on that, because the easy victories aren't memorable. It's the hard won victories I remember most strongly, whether achieved by my character or by PCs against my villians. War stories about that stuff some other time. I'm sleepy and can't get my mail to send (dang it! The darn thing was working perfectly a few min ago! I hope this isn't the same problem my ISP had on the 31st. Grrrr. . .) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:25:29 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > So, to start things off, I have two questions: > > First - would somebody mind pointing me to references about the Free City > of Dunwick (on the Savage Coast), the Hollow Moon, or that large area of > Brun north of the Savage Coast (eg the 'Yalag River', etc)? Online items > and officially published works would both be useful. > The stuff about the Hollow Moon, written magnificently by Sharon Dornhoff (with some contributions by others, but the main work by her) is at Stan's D&D site. Much of the information on the Savage Coast can be found in the Savage Coast products (now out of print, but fairly easy to get). I believe the boxed set "Red Steel" would be most helpful. Of good use also are the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles that detail the Savage Coast, if you have the issues of the Dragon that they appear in, or the recently released CD Rom version. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:30:12 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Theft on the Day of Dread... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If anyone can think of any other/better ideas, I would > love to hear them. > My personal favorite is not to have a Day of Dread at all, but that would subvert the intention of the adventure I suppose. So I'll go with my backup idea. If the "lybrary" actually opens into a Gate to another plane (perhaps one of the many planes in the D&D/Mystara Astral), then that gate would automatically stop functioning on the Day of Dread - or if it *did* function (was a non-magical or Immortal or Artifact created Gate), the magical protections on the plane the tomes are stored in would still be in force (since the DoD doesn't occur on that plane). This would also help for convenient storage: you could have a nice, modest sized establishment, but with effectively unlimited space (even a planet-sized plane would be large enough to store everything they could ever hope to aquire for the lybrary.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:40:18 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or too bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By the way, I keep meaning to correct the title of this thread but keep forgetting. Sometimes I think English is my second language, but if it is I'm truely hosed since it's the only one I can really say I'm fluent in. The title has said "The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care?" When of course it should be TOO bored to care. Or should it be TO bored to care? Shoot, I've confused myself again - all I know now is that "two" was incorrect for sure. Next post will catalogue all the other typos and malapropisms (the unintentional ones) in all of my previous posts. Ok, not really. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... In-Reply-To: <200001030827.DAA29628@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: >> First - would somebody mind pointing me to references about the Free City >> of Dunwick (on the Savage Coast), the Hollow Moon, or that large area of >> Brun north of the Savage Coast (eg the 'Yalu River', etc)? Online items >> and officially published works would both be useful. >The stuff about the Hollow Moon, written magnificently by Sharon Dornhoff >(with some contributions by others, but the main work by her) is at Stan's >D&D site. ... And where might I find that site? >Much of the information on the Savage Coast can be found in the >Savage Coast products (now out of print, but fairly easy to get). I believe >the boxed set "Red Steel" would be most helpful. Indeed, "Red Steel" and "Savage Baronies" seem like the best places to look; however, although I've found blurbs on the various actual 'nations' (ie, the ones given borders on the maps), I haven't yet found anything about Dunwick itself. >Of good use also are the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles that detail >the Savage Coast, if you have the issues of the Dragon that they appear >in, or the recently released CD Rom version. I have both the original Dragon Magazines, and the new CD-Rom; unfortunately, the search program that comes with the CD's... doesn't work, and I'm only up to reading the third disk's .pdf files, so I'm still not sure which issue(s) would cover the right region. (In case you're wondering, the reason I'm interested in Dunwick is because (spoiler non-space) I've gotten the idea of having some of the ratlings who arrived in the under-city in Kaldmont, 1016 turn the place into a "Free" city with a different character, more of a Mos Eisley than a Renaissance Venice. I'm also thinking about some of them taking their milk-rats north into the plains, with either Masai or Mongol overtones... maybe introduce some pie-rats of the sea or sky... and, of course, there's always the Hollow Moon...) Thank you for your time, -- Daniel Boese, whose favorite Immortal has always been Mrikitat :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:24:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... In-Reply-To: ; from dboese@BECON.ORG on Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 04:32:43AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 04:32:43AM -0500, Daniel Boese wrote: > On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > >The stuff about the Hollow Moon, written magnificently by Sharon Dornhoff > >(with some contributions by others, but the main work by her) is at Stan's > >D&D site. > > ... And where might I find that site? That would be http://dnd.starflung.com It appeared in the trailing sig for the list a while ago which was quite a good idea I thought, now it's something about other worlds, oh well. Looking forward to seeing those ratlings (who could forget Bart the rat boy...) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 06:52:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... In-Reply-To: <20000103112454.A13927@grumpy.esatclear.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Gordon McCormick wrote: >On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 04:32:43AM -0500, Daniel Boese wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: >>>The stuff about the Hollow Moon, written magnificently by Sharon Dornhoff >>>(with some contributions by others, but the main work by her) is at Stan's >>>D&D site. >> >> ... And where might I find that site? > >That would be > >http://dnd.starflung.com Thank you /very/ much - I just scanned through the site, and can see that I have a lot too catch up on. :) >Looking forward to seeing those ratlings (who could forget Bart >the rat boy...) (Er, I suppose that I could forget him - I have a strange image of a gray-furred Bart Simpson with rodent incisors, but that's about it...) Well, since you're interested, I'll tell you about one ratling I'm working on - Zenites Paphladopolous. He was once a well-liked, minor politician in Thyatis, until he survived an assassination attempt by a hired were-rat... and became a were-rat himself. Although he became boss of a few hundred were-rats in The Big City, his greatest claim to fame in Thyatis City itself was having written a "how-to" political treatise for an up-and-coming nephew, which that nephew then published and made a modest profit from. (Think of a combination of Machiavelli's "The Prince", Sun-Tzu's "The Art of War", Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People", and Peter Anspach's "Evil Overlord List".) In 'The Great Escape' of 1016, Zenites took his entire gang through Mrikitat's Escape Arch, arriving underneath Dunwick, and was somewhat non-plussed to discover they were all now ratlings. Now, what I'm still working on is finding out more about Dunwick, so that I can figure out how Zenites takes over a significant portion of it - along the lines of 'Jabba the Hut', or 'The Generic Crafty Politician'. Plus, he won't be happy when a large number of ratlings decide to leave Dunwick and head north with their rat-cattle... and once he gets into power, there's always the machinations and manipulations to /stay/ there... In other words, he's going to become the source of a large number of plot and adventure opportunities, even if the PC's themselves never realize that the gnolls they just fought were a mercenaries hired by Torreon merchants to hire a large band of goblinoids to crash Zenites' diplomatic function next month... ;) Thank you for your time, -- Daniel Boese, considering calling himself the net-Mrikitat... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:04:58 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Vorbiant's Rings (semi-long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, It's a new year and a new century, so here's a new set of items from me for your edification. Please let me know what you think of these. Carl Q. - Vorbiant's Rings: The Wizard Vorbiant lived and died on the Alphatian continent over 600 years ago. A powerful Mage, his forte was magical research - Vorbiant developed many new and potent variations on existing spells and magic items (particularly the latter) in his two-century-long life. Unfortunately, Vorbiant was both easily bored and obsessively secretive, which meant that he rarely made more than one of any item, and invariably destroyed any written notes pertaining to its creation; consequently, many of his unique devices are now lost to the world. Among the few remaining creations of Vorbiant known to exist are a collection of half-a-dozen unique magical rings. Each of these is made from red gold, so rich with iron as to be almost crimson in colour (Vorbiant always used the same gold mine for his raw materials, as he found the gold-iron combination was particularly receptive to enchantment). Although unadorned, these rings can be distinguished from each other by the runic script etched on the inner surface of each, stating their names and any command words they may have (Read Languages is necessary to understand the script). The rings were auctioned off after Vorbiant's death, and have exchanged hands frequently in the last six centuries. One early owner of the set had a velvet-lined teak box made to hold the rings, which has been sold along with the rings, as an integral part of the collection, ever since. All six of Vorbiant's Rings, and their casket, are detailed below:- Ring of Elevation - This item functions as a Ring of Levitation, as per the spell, allowing the wearer to float off the ground at will. It differs from the norm because the wearer can also use it to levitate any other person within 30' into the air. This power can affect only one person at a time (either the wearer or one other person). Unwilling levitants may make a Save vs. Spells to resist the effect. The ring is useful for helping an entire party to scale a sheer wall, one at a time; in combat, it can be used to pick up foes and drop them from a height. The ring can only levitate others to a maximum of 30', unless the wearer can levitate or fly by other means; when used on the wearer itself, the range is practically unlimited. This ring can be used as often as desired. Ring of Arctic Fire - This item functions as a Ring of Cold Resistance, as per the spell. While it is worn, the air around the wearer (to a range of 1-2') feels warm and comfortable at all times. In addition to the standard powers of such an item, once per day the Ring of Arctic Fire can be commanded into overdrive; the wearer bursts into flames, becoming immune to even magical cold (such as White Dragon breath) The wearer (and all items worn or carried) is immune to the fire, but while aflame he can cause 1d6 damage per touch to others and ignite flammable items. The fiery shroud lasts no longer than 1 Turn, and may be cancelled at will by the wearer of the Ring. Corps Ring - This potent item functions as a Ring of Protection +2, 15' Radius with a selective protection process. The wearer of the Ring can, at will, create temporary copies of the Ring, which may be passed to whomever the wearer desires; so long as the wearer of a copy is within 15' of the primary ring-wearer, he receives all the benefits of the primary ring's protection. Ring-copies can remain in existence indefinitely, if the wearer remains within 60' of the prime ring; if taken further away, they fade from the wearer's finger. Likewise, the prime ring's wearer can cause any and all copies to vanish at will. Up to 20 copies may be in existence at any one time; beyond this limit, the copying power ceases to function. Ring of the Libram - This item functions as a Ring of Memory. Once per day, the wearer may use the Ring to recall a cast spell of level 1-3 into memory. However, by accident (or design), the recovered spell is not necessarily the one cast; it can be any spell of the correct level to which the wearer has access, be it memorised, in a spellbook, or on a scroll belonging to the caster (DM's choice as to which spell is recalled). Ring of Spellshaping - This item functions as a Ring of Spell Turning. Unlike most rings of this type, it has unlimited uses, but only functions twice per day. When an offensive spell (Magic Missile, Fireball, Lightning bolt, etc) is cast at the wearer, the Ring automatically converts it into a protective or otherwise helpful spell of equal or lower level (for instance, Magic Missile might become Shield or Detect Magic; Fireball could shift into Protect ion from Normal Missiles or Infravision, etc). The wearer cannot select which offensive spells are affected, nor what spell the attack transmutes into. Vorbiant's Ring - One of the last items Vorbiant created, as he reached the end of his life; it contains a portion of his spirit. A powerful and flexible version of the standard Ring of Spell Storing, it can hold up to 6 spells, or 12 spell levels, whichever is the lesser - the wearer can alter the selection as he pleases, so long as it conforms to these limits. When the Ring is used, a translucent image of the long-dead mage appears and casts the spell on the wearer's behalf, remaining extant for several rounds afterwards. This spirit-form has some of the memories and personality of the irascible old wizard, and must be treated with deference and respect, or he will refuse to serve the wearer. If Vorbiant likes his "master", however, he might be prevailed upon to pass on some of his sorcerous knowledge, including several unique, long-lost spells... Tedrum's Casket - This is a shallow, ornately-carved teak-wood box with a heavy hinged lid; the interior is lined with red velvet. There are six ring-sized indentations in the base. Created by the Bettelyn-born mage and artisan, Tedrum Lancorr, in 1783 AL to house the collection, the Casket's clasp bears a permanent Wizard Lock enchantment; only one who knows the correct sequence of knocks can disengage the lock and open the box. The last known sale of Vorbiant's Rings was nearly fifty years ago, in Floating Ar; If the rings have remained with their purchaser, then they are lost beneath the sea (or were perhaps transferred to the Hollow World); however, the collection was reputedly stolen and broken up in 1007, so by now the individual rings might be found almost anywhere. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:45:20 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So it's ok to flame people as long as you do it in character? > Not the intention of what I wrote, but if you wish to take it as such feel free to do so. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:32:00 +1100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:24 3/01/00 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 04:32:43AM -0500, Daniel Boese wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: >> >> >The stuff about the Hollow Moon, written magnificently by Sharon Dornhoff >> >(with some contributions by others, but the main work by her) is at Stan's >> >D&D site. >> >> ... And where might I find that site? > >That would be > >http://dnd.starflung.com > >It appeared in the trailing sig for the list a while ago which >was quite a good idea I thought, now it's something about other >worlds, oh well. > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp TSR wants you to also visit the other official homepages for the other worlds that they're supporting now, so you can follow the link from the Other Worlds Homepage - well that's the idea any rate. shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: redrobyne Subject: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ok mml first question I have since I've been back. I realize some of you don't like the idea of mithril in a mystara campaign but I would appreciate it if you answered. Ok here it is, If a character were to have a weapon made out of mithril silver instead of normal silver would it still do damage to creatures only affected by silver weapons, and Is Mithril Silver even really (a) silver? I have a second question more just too see what some other people have done. Has anyone created or had a real baron for the barony of Halag (after Von Hendriks of course), did you have a PC rule the barony or NPC what happened and how did things change etc etc? Thankyou to whom ever answers these questions for me! Stewart ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:39:17 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: Rebuttal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul George Dooley > > So it's ok to flame people as long as you do it in character? > > > Not the intention of what I wrote, but if you wish to take it as such feel > free to do so. How about not flaming at all, in or out of character (since this isn't really an in-character list anyway),and avoiding this kind of thing? Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:47:21 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ok mml first question I have since I've been back. I realize some of you > don't like the idea of mithril in a mystara campaign but I would appreciate > it if you answered. Ok here it is, If a character were to have a weapon made > out of mithril silver instead of normal silver would it still do damage to > creatures only affected by silver weapons, and Is Mithril Silver even really > (a) silver? > I would say no. On the other hand, if someone's going to go to the expense of getting a mithril weapon, they may as well coat it in silver as well. Or just enchant it -creatures that can be affected by silver weapons are almost invariably vulnerable to magic ones as well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:05:23 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 00-01-03 16:50:51 EST, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << I would say no. On the other hand, if someone's going to go to the expense of getting a mithril weapon, they may as well coat it in silver as well. Or just enchant it -creatures that can be affected by silver weapons are almost invariably vulnerable to magic ones as well. >> Hmmm... IIRC Tolkien basically invented Mithril for the Middle Earth setting, where it is described as "True Silver" (Sindarin, "silver flame" or "gray brilliance" depending on translation). AKA "Silver Steel", it has the qualities of beauty (and then some) of silver while having the strength (and then some) of steel. Thus I would definitely allow the use of Mithril against creatures affected only by silver weapons. [All the following "statistical" details are taken from the "Treasures of Middle Earth" book from ICE]. As to the value of it, in MERP it is placed (in mineral form alone) at 400x the value of silver (40x the value of gold in MERP); Mithril coins are valued at 100 GP each. It takes 20x the normal amount of time it would take to fashion a specific item from Mithril as it would from normal iron and cost 2500x as much just for the cost of the work of the metalsmith; the actual metal itself is worth 5,000,000 times as much as a similar weight in iron (though I would lower that somewhat in Mystaran terms)! I would say that a mithril weapon by it's very nature would be at least a +1 weapon magically since it pretty much takes magic to manipulate it (dwarven craft-magic or otherwise). But the nature of "enchanted" weapons varies from campaign to campaign... According to the MERP guide a "typical" magical bonus on a Mithril weapon would be around a +4 in D&D terms. Mystaros ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:23:01 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Metals and Effects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personally I find the creation of Adamantite more amusing that Mithril. I'm not sure of the precise source, but Tolkien made reference to 'towers of adamant' when describing Barad-Dur, the Dark Tower. AD&D went on to describe it as an incredibly hard and rare metal that holds magical enchantments better than regular steel. In real life, Adamantite is just a descriptive for any metal of hardness, in particular it was used to refer to steel weapons in the early Iron Age, which were quite superior to bronze and iron weapons in terms of hardness and strength. (Iron weapons were prone to breaking, and bronze is softer.) For the sake of rules, I would say that Adamantite would not have silver qualities, but likely it would be effective as cold iron or a weapon of +1 enchantment in relation to striking creatures with immunities. IronWolf redrobyne wrote: > > Ok mml first question I have since I've been back. I realize some of you > don't like the idea of mithril in a mystara campaign but I would appreciate > it if you answered. Ok here it is, If a character were to have a weapon made > out of mithril silver instead of normal silver would it still do damage to > creatures only affected by silver weapons, and Is Mithril Silver even really > (a) silver? I have a second question more just too see what some other > people have done. Has anyone created or had a real baron for the barony of > Halag (after Von Hendriks of course), did you have a PC rule the barony or > NPC what happened and how did things change etc etc? Thankyou to whom ever > answers these questions for me! > > Stewart > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: redrobyne Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you Mystaros that was very informative I will make sure this info does not go to waste! And yes I believe Tolkien did pretty much invent mithril although I believe it was only used in armor not on weapons. It sorda funny though in D&D elves are the ones who forge mithril not Dwarves but in Tolkiens books it was vice versa (although their was mentioned or insinuated that Dwarves gave the "mithril mail" to elves). Perhaps in D&D it should only be found in lush thick forests instead of deep mountain caves explaining the elves use with this metal. Any suggestions? > Hmmm... IIRC Tolkien basically invented Mithril for the Middle Earth setting, > where it is described as "True Silver" (Sindarin, "silver flame" or "gray > brilliance" depending on translation). AKA "Silver Steel", it has the > qualities of beauty (and then some) of silver while having the strength (and > then some) of steel. Thus I would definitely allow the use of Mithril against > creatures affected only by silver weapons. > > [All the following "statistical" details are taken from the "Treasures of > Middle Earth" book from ICE]. > > As to the value of it, in MERP it is placed (in mineral form alone) at 400x > the value of silver (40x the value of gold in MERP); Mithril coins are valued > at 100 GP each. It takes 20x the normal amount of time it would take to > fashion a specific item from Mithril as it would from normal iron and cost > 2500x as much just for the cost of the work of the metalsmith; the actual > metal itself is worth 5,000,000 times as much as a similar weight in iron > (though I would lower that somewhat in Mystaran terms)! I would say that a > mithril weapon by it's very nature would be at least a +1 weapon magically > since it pretty much takes magic to manipulate it (dwarven craft-magic or > otherwise). But the nature of "enchanted" weapons varies from campaign to > campaign... According to the MERP guide a "typical" magical bonus on a > Mithril weapon would be around a +4 in D&D terms. > > Mystaros > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:48:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Metals and Effects Comments: To: ironwolf@ewa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- IronWolf wrote: > Personally I find the creation of Adamantite more > amusing that Mithril. I'm not > sure of the precise source, but Tolkien made > reference to 'towers of adamant' Not to be confused with 'Adam & the Ants'. Sorry, I couldn't resist. As long as I'm posting goofy, semi-D&D related stuff, I just ordered a furnace for a customer whose last name is Horrobin. No, seriously... afterall, Nagpas gotta keep warm, too. Oh well. I guess I get bored at work sometimes... -Damon ===== "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:56:58 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hmmm... IIRC Tolkien basically invented Mithril for the Middle Earth setting, > where it is described as "True Silver" (Sindarin, "silver flame" or "gray > brilliance" depending on translation). > Yes, but this isn't MERP, or Tolkien, it's D&D. Lots of stuff in D&D was "inspired by" Tolkien, but is not identical to his stuff. And certainly not identical to MERP's version of it. Now, I'm not sure what the D&D, OD&D or AD&D metalurgy rules say about the properties of Mithril (I'm sure it's in one of my tomes here, probably the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, which has lots of info on mining, but I'm too sleepy to try and locate the info). You might be right, but I'm not sure. Something might be called "true silver" without being silver. But oh well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:02:38 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Stuff about Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Just thought I would make a few announcements to my "Mystaran Contemporaries"... First, I've decided that I need to create a website for myself and some of my Mystara ideas. This seems to be a good way to make a contribution to the group. Plus, I need to have something up in case a potential employer wants to see what I can do in HTML. It's been awhile since I've worked with HTML, plus I'll need content, so I don't know how long it will be before I get something up (At the moment I need to straighten some things up with my ISP) but when I do I will let everyone know. Second, I've also decided to begin running a Mystara campaign, something I've not really done. I've collected the materials, but the amount of use I've gotten out of them isn't equitable to the money spent. (Especially for those darn Trail Maps...) I ran one OD&D game, but I made the mistake of using Castle Caldwell, which annoyed my players and resulted in a lot of friction and discouragement. This time, I'm running a Red Steel campaign. I'm doing this because I like AD&D, and the RS stuff is already converted and done, and is a pretty good job. (I know there's some issues here and there, but they're nothing compared to those awful boxed sets for Karameikos and Glantri.) Unfortunately, I'm finding that most players locally don't want to play, either because it's AD&D (This includes all incarnations of the game), or because it's Red Steel. Does anyone else have this problem? It's very discouraging, I'm wondering if I'd have better luck running games on IRC. Anyway, I hope to have something to show for my efforts for everyone. Until then... IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:24:29 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stuff about Me Comments: To: ironwolf@ewa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > First, I've decided that I need to create a website for myself and some of my > Mystara ideas. This seems to be a good way to make a contribution to the group. > Yep. 8-) One advice I have, not just for you but for others as well (including myself) is to announce major updates of your webpages (or if you make a few additions at a time, the way I do, then post about it after enough of a "backlog" has built up). I know that at least with me (and thus possibly with some others) I get so caught up in daily stuff that I tend to forget to check back at web pages I like unless someone reminds me that they are out there and growing. > > Second, I've also decided to begin running a Mystara campaign, something I've > not really done. I've collected the materials, but the amount of use I've gotten > out of them isn't equitable to the money spent. (Especially for those darn Trail > Maps...) > Well, the trail maps grew on me. Of course, I got 'em when they came out & didn't spend buku on them (what were they at the time? 5-6 bucks?) Much of it is in the RC, but all chopped up. And the Trail Maps have those little info things at the bottom, which might seem insignificant right now, but also ended up being useful & interesting to me. I keep mine in pretty good shape since I know I probably won't be able to replace them (reminds me: I gotta pick up a new copy of DotE soon, the maps and books of my old one are starting to show wear, especially in the creases). > > Unfortunately, I'm finding that most players locally don't want to play, > either because it's AD&D (This includes all incarnations of the game), > or because it's Red Steel. Does anyone else have > this problem? It's very discouraging, I'm wondering if I'd have better luck > running games on IRC. > I live in internal exile in Yokledom's Motherland right now, and there aren't many people around here, much less role players. So most (well, all) of my current gaming is on the web (PBeMs) or as a design hobby (writing up little screeds or descriptions of this or that, then nefariously inflicting my "work" on all of you). But my opinion is that it's hard in general - unless you already have a group. I have an opinion that RPG playing (at least of the PnP kind) is a dying hobby (slowly, though, not all at once): persistence and attention to get imeshed seems to be lacking. . . But, I could be wrong. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:05:04 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Stuff about Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:26:31 PM, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: <<> Unfortunately, I'm finding that most players locally don't want to play, > either because it's AD&D (This includes all incarnations of the game), > or because it's Red Steel. Does anyone else have > this problem? It's very discouraging, I'm wondering if I'd have better luck > running games on IRC.>> I kinda know what you're talking about. My campaigning party began with about 4, then went to 5, peaked at 6, dropped to 5, and now is down to 4, one if which is the GM. I am really looking forward to starting out my new campaign, but I need some more players! If anyone lives in the Bay Area of CA, USA, then please respond to me and maybe we'll work out something. Until then, i just have to rely on the dreaded TSR website for player information. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:24:13 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mail armors were commisionned by the elves and made by the dwarves of erebor.They were certainly using the ore they mine before TA 1981 in the moria mines when the balrog striked.There is only one mention of mithril in the Lord of the ring and it concerns Bilbo's mail he got from the hoard of Smaug.The metal is so pricy that gandalf refers it as worthing more than the entire Shire and all that it contained. One last thing about converting the MERP stuff to D&D.It is said that a +5 bonus in MERP is equivalent to a +1 in D&D but in MERP's world galvorn exists and is +35 (thus making +7 enchanted items in D&D terms).I think that the question of metal wearing natural enchantment could be debated on and on....But it won't help much.We already have Red Steel why should we need other special metals.It's better to keep a veil of mystery around the magical properties of the Mystaran metals and ores. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:19:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > . > There is a "certain kind of Mystaraphile" who believes that everything > about Alphatia is much better than it was presented and everything about > Thyatis is even worse than it was presented. This is called* the "Dupuisian > Heresy," for reasons that should be obvious. Heck, the way some people > portray things, you'd think Alphatian slaves led happier, healthier, more > leisurely lives than a Darokinian plutocrat. I could make some comparisons > but they'd be unflattering and cause hurt feelings among some who consider > themselves enlightened folk, so I'd better just leave it at that. > Hey, James, remember that there is a sort of joke going on between me (Giulio Caroletti) and Jens Arvid Schnabel...we speak a lot "in character" on the list, normally blaming all the problems of the world on each other (me as my Thyatian counterpart, he as the Stalker). That doesn't mean we are profoundly sure and right in believing "our" country to be much better than the other...it implied a sort of autoirony that the Alphathian guy showed to possess, I think. Anyway, I perfectly agree on the "Dupuisian Heresy". Alphathia was transformed by Ann Dupuis in an enlightened country that seems to owe a lot to the western political ideals...I mean: free the slaves, institute more democratical institutions (just take a look to Favian Vern, that seems to be a cross between M.L.King and ol'Abraham Lincoln). [Hey, I don't want to talk of RW politics, it's just an example]. I have always seen Alphathia more like a sort of heavily magical Persian Empire (the conflict Greek-Persians comes to mind for a background of Thyatian-Alphathian conflicts...]. The problem is that a lot of Alphathiaphiles completely ignore (and it's not always their fault, especially since they don't have DoTE), the real background of their beloved nation (slaves and peasants with no right, totally at the mercy of a chaotic neutral society that allows spellcasters to doEVERYTHING) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:25:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: questions on silver(s) and barony In-Reply-To: <006301bf5631$9586f820$68cf1ece@hpcustomer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, redrobyne wrote: > Ok mml first question I have since I've been back. I realize some of you > don't like the idea of mithril in a mystara campaign but I would appreciate > it if you answered. Ok here it is, If a character were to have a weapon made > out of mithril silver instead of normal silver would it still do damage to > creatures only affected by silver weapons, and Is Mithril Silver even really > (a) silver? I have a second question more just too see what some other > people have done. Has anyone created or had a real baron for the barony of > Halag (after Von Hendriks of course), did you have a PC rule the barony or > NPC what happened and how did things change etc etc? Thankyou to whom ever > answers these questions for me! Mithril is mentioned in the adventure Section of the Darokin Gazetteer, but no specifics are given. Id suggest that weapons made of Mithril are automatically +5 (or +6 if you want somethhing really special). Also, you could provide bonuses to enchant mithril with special abilities (although no more plusses can be gained). Mithril is not a type of silver but is often called Mithril Silver because of its appearance. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Greetings! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I've been lurking on this list for a couple of days and I felt it was time I introduced myself. Hi everyone, my name is Jeremy. I've been a fan of Mystara for a long time, from back before the place even had a name and it was just the Known World in the Expert set. Mystara was always the only published "world" that I would run a traditional game in, although I'd run the occasional Ravenloft or Planescape game for something different. I've been away from D&D for a number of years, mainly because my group grew to dislike the D&D system and wanted to play something other than fantasy. We've jumped from game to game over the past few years (Torg to Shadowrun to Deadlands etc.), but I've always kinda missed the D&D games we used to play. Anyway, with all of the hype about the new 3rd edition D&D game coming out, I broke out some of my old Mystara stuff and read it again, and I remembered how much I loved the setting. I decided to visit a few of the Mystara websites and see what people have done with the settings since the last time I looked (over a year ago) and I must say that I'm impressed! I especially like the Net Almanacs (I just downloaded the one for 1016 a few days ago. WOW!). After remembering how much I loved the setting, I decided to resubscribe to this list (I've been on and off over the years, but my old jobs never left me much time for hobbies beyond simply running a game). I think that the thing that keeps drawing me back to Mystara is because it's so different from the other TSR worlds. Mystara always seemed more politically vibrant to me than FR or Greyhawk. And I loved the concept of Immortals from the first time I read about them in the Master's Boxed set. I think of everything on Mystara, the Immortals, their Churches, and their Outer Planes all interest me the most. (Probably has something to do with me always playing the cleric before I became a DM). Anyway, I'm rambling now. I just wanted to introduce myself and to let people know that I'm out here. I'd also like to volunteer with any efforts to develop new Mystara stuff for the Net, especially if it has to do with the Religions, Immortals or Outer Planes of Mystara. Thanks, Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:48:33 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > counterpart, he as the Stalker). That doesn't mean we are profoundly sure and > right in believing "our" country to be much better than the other...it implied > a sort of autoirony that the Alphathian guy showed to possess, I think. > Ok, well I wasn't really referring to Jens/Stalker with that one. He seems "sane" 8-) > I perfectly agree on the "Dupuisian Heresy". Alphathia was transformed by Ann > Dupuis in an enlightened country that seems to owe a lot to the western > political ideals...I mean: free the slaves, institute more democratical > institutions (just take a look to Favian Vern, that seems to be a cross between > M.L.King and ol'Abraham Lincoln). [Hey, I don't want to talk of RW politics, > it's just an example]. > Yes. I'm probably not allowed to get into that anymore for now, though. I've filled my quota for awhile. > I have always seen Alphathia more like a sort of heavily > magical Persian Empire (the conflict Greek-Persians comes to mind for a > background of Thyatian-Alphathian conflicts...]. > Sort of, and sort of not (they do use that Persian head, and do have some things that are semi-Persian about them) - their social make up is supposed to (kind of) evoke Greek culture while Thyatis is (more directly) based on Rome (with a dash of Byzantium; more of the latter when I personally do it). I do have to admit that the DotE version of Alphatia is more unique, not as directly based upon an IRL model as Thyatis (and numerous other KW countries). There's some Persia in there, some classical Greece, some Atlantis. . .and a whole heck of a lot of Melnebone' when it comes right down to it. > The problem is that a lot of > Alphathiaphiles completely ignore (and it's not always their fault, especially > since they don't have DoTE), the real background of their beloved nation > (slaves and peasants with no right, totally at the mercy of a chaotic neutral > society that allows spellcasters to doEVERYTHING) > Again, except to agree I'm not allowed to get into it anymore right now for awhile - my quota for "pointing out the truth about Alphatia" is full for awhile. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:54:25 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Greetings! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Anyway, I'm rambling now. I just wanted to introduce myself and to let > people know that I'm out here. I'd also like to volunteer with any > efforts to develop new Mystara stuff for the Net, especially if it has to > do with the Religions, Immortals or Outer Planes of Mystara. > Greetings. If you want to do some of that for the next Almanac (1017), let Herve know (hmusseau@yahoo.com). I know he was looking for more people to do stuff on Immortals, Religions, etc. As for the list as a whole, just post anything any ol' time you want. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:49:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000104063140.0077ced0@alphalink.com.au>; from stanles@ALPHALINK.COM.AU on Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 06:32:00AM +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 06:32:00AM +1100, shawn stanley wrote: > > > >It appeared in the trailing sig for the list a while ago which > >was quite a good idea I thought, now it's something about other > >worlds, oh well. > > > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > TSR wants you to also visit the other official homepages for the other > worlds that they're supporting now, so you can follow the link from the > Other Worlds Homepage - well that's the idea any rate. Oh yeah, I suppose I should actually check what page it lead to, ahem, yes that is a better idea after all. Although I can't seem to get the links on that page to work atm, oh well. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:52:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care? In-Reply-To: <200001030822.DAA16905@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Getting back a bit to some of the stuff I mentioned in my other post - > Wrath made me a stronger supporter of Thyatis since I rooted for the > underdog a bit (a lot) & didn't like the trend. The PWAs (especially II, > III, and JA) hardened my outlook (probably too much, but it keeps getting > re-enforced instead of fading, because of. . .well, stuff I shouldn't get > into), because IMO it made the Alphatians caricatures of themselves - they > became extreme versions of themselves: Eriadna became not only wise but > just and caring, concerned about the welfare of barbarians. Zandor became a > total flake and crazed moron (where before he was a dangerously intelligent > psychopath, smart). Alphatians discovered a previously unknown love of > democratic institutions and decided they should be egalitarians with their > barbarian slaves, etc. This was, to me, distasteful because it ruined what > Alphatia was and made it into something new and "Barneyesque". I haven't looked at the PWAs or WOTI, which I guess is good, since I already am sickened at how DOTE Barney-fied the Alphatians quite a bit. After CM1 and M2, I had neutral opinions of both sides. With the DOTE pro-Alphatian hyperbole, I was pushed into the Thyatian corner. Nice to see some other folks don't like rooting for the dragon against St. George. > land troops in Norwold. Sure, Norwold goes into Civil Disorder during the > war The whole anti-Norworld push in DOTE also bothered me quite a bit. Why change established settings so much? > > another choice of symbolism. heavy use of magic and depleted > > > That's another beef I have: because the Alphatians are magic heavy by > comparison with other nations, their enemies (Thyatis in particular) are > often portrayed as if they were magic poor. Again if this were the case one > wonders why Thyatis ever existed in the first place. But this is perhaps a > topic more suited for a thread of its own, so I'll leave it at that. I don't understand that tendency either. Even DOTE makes Thyatis sound like a meritocracy, where everyone with abilities gets respect, whereas Alphatia only respects one group. You expect the former to have a diverse range of talents and the latter to be very limited in areas outside its specialty. - Mischa [Ronald Reagan] went beyond explaining why war may be right. He told us it may be civilized. What a long way we've come from the days when war was hell - Ellen Goodman, November 1983 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:45:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Portrayals of Norwold M. Gelman wrote: > The whole anti-Norworld push in DOTE also bothered me quite a bit. > Why change established settings so much? > Well, they didn't devote a lot of space to Norwold in DotE; from the perspective of Alphatia as a whole, Norwold is something of a backwater (I frequently compare it to "Karameikos writ large" - it has a "good-hearted" king who just got the job, having immigrated with some buddies from another, more established nation, is a "frontier"/newly established kingdom, and the like). They did make Ericall seem more stupid in DotE than in the modules (where he comes off as not so much stupid as a bit over-burdened, inexperienced, and nieve - he puts Lernal in Landfall just as Stefan puts Ludwig in Halag, for similar reasons. Though Lernal is more smarmy than diabolical). Ericall comes off in the Norwold modules (Test of the Warlords et al) as needing help, and "learning on the job," (this allows the PCs, as they should, to play a central role in the events the modules unfurl) but not dumb. IMO, in some cases even DotE adopts the mindset of the Alphatian upper classes - Ericall is a Fig! ! hter, not a Wizard, so he is portrayed as somewhat second-rate. On the other hand, though, as a guy who got his position in Norwold because his mother put him there, that doesn't mean he's competent. I donno - I see your point to some extent, but I also don't think DotE treated Norwold *that* badly, given the amount of space they spent on it (and, as many fans of Alphatia will tell you, they didn't spend much time on any part of that Empire; in retrospect it might have been better if they had two boxed sets, one for Thyatis and one for Alphatia, and devoted more time & space to each. But then there would be fewer "gaps" for us to fill in, which to me is one of the fun things about both. You can always have Norwold be as you picture it to be and ignore the short & minor references in DotE that you dislike). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:41:33 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Boese wrote: > > >> First - would somebody mind pointing me to references about the Free City > >> of Dunwick (on the Savage Coast), the Hollow Moon, or that large area of > >> Brun north of the Savage Coast (eg the 'Yalu River', etc)? Online items > >> and officially published works would both be useful. > [snip] > Indeed, "Red Steel" and "Savage Baronies" seem like the best places to > look; however, although I've found blurbs on the various actual 'nations' > (ie, the ones given borders on the maps), I haven't yet found anything > about Dunwick itself. > There should be something in the Cimarron County entry. Look in the colonies section. > >Of good use also are the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles that detail > >the Savage Coast, if you have the issues of the Dragon that they appear > >in, or the recently released CD Rom version. > > I have both the original Dragon Magazines, and the new CD-Rom; > unfortunately, the search program that comes with the CD's... doesn't > work, and I'm only up to reading the third disk's .pdf files, so I'm still > not sure which issue(s) would cover the right region. > Try issues 179-181 (this is the result given by the search program to the "Dunwick" query). There is also an adventure idea for Dunwick undercity written by Bruce Heard somewhere in the Web (of course, it must be available at Shawn's site). About Yalu River region, there should be a lot of material in Christian Constantin's site (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cauldron/5014/) Hope it helps, -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:17:56 +1100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: The rat came back (it wouldn't go away)... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:49 4/01/00 +0000, you wrote: >On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 06:32:00AM +1100, shawn stanley wrote: >> > >> >It appeared in the trailing sig for the list a while ago which >> >was quite a good idea I thought, now it's something about other >> >worlds, oh well. >> > >> >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> >> TSR wants you to also visit the other official homepages for the other >> worlds that they're supporting now, so you can follow the link from the >> Other Worlds Homepage - well that's the idea any rate. > >Oh yeah, I suppose I should actually check what page it lead to, ahem, >yes that is a better idea after all. > >Although I can't seem to get the links on that page to work atm, oh well. Well, as I said - the link on that page back to my page is definitly the idea. shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:23:43 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Stuff about Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IronWolf wrote: > Unfortunately, I'm finding that > most players locally don't want to play, either because it's AD&D (This includes > all incarnations of the game), or because it's Red Steel. Does anyone else have > this problem? It's very discouraging, I'm wondering if I'd have better luck > running games on IRC. > In my experience, it is more difficult to find people who would play an RPG than having established players switch to a new region, or even a new system. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:27:16 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Metals and Effects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IronWolf wrote: > > Personally I find the creation of Adamantite more amusing that Mithril. I'm not > sure of the precise source, but Tolkien made reference to 'towers of adamant' > when describing Barad-Dur, the Dark Tower. AD&D went on to describe it as an > incredibly hard and rare metal that holds magical enchantments better than > regular steel. > Adamant is quite ancient, as its first appearance (to my knowledge) is in greek myths on Chronos (his sickle is said to be made of adamant). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:44:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love Misha's quotes at the bottom of his mails. Has nothing to do the Mystara, nevertheless. Oh, well. Iulius S. Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Mystara ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Portrayals of Norwold In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > The whole anti-Norworld push in DOTE also bothered me quite a bit. > > Why change established settings so much? > > Well, they didn't devote a lot of space to Norwold in DotE; from the > perspective of Alphatia as a whole, Norwold is something of a backwater True, but the Pearl Islands and Ochalea for instance were not given as negative a portrayal (IMO) and those are what I would call the closest Thyatian equivalents. > (I frequently compare it to "Karameikos writ large" - it has a > "good-hearted" king who just got the job, having immigrated with some > buddies from another, more established nation, is a "frontier"/newly > established kingdom, and the like). Yep - and each was the major setting for the modules - Karameikos at low levels, Norworld at high ones. The correlation is a fairly strong one I believe. > They did make Ericall seem more > stupid in DotE than in the modules (where he comes off as not so much > stupid as a bit over-burdened, inexperienced, and nieve I wouldn't include naive. Over-burdened and inexperienced, but managing well and able to buck the will of 2 major empires and still hold his own. In DOTE, we get him portrayed as whiny (it claims Eriadna granted the land just so he wouldn't annoy her) and unwilling to listen to criticism and advice (despite the prominence of several advisers in CM1) in addition to the overburden and anger at being discriminated against for not being an MU. > - he puts Lernal > in Landfall just as Stefan puts Ludwig in Halag, for similar reasons. > Though Lernal is more smarmy than diabolical). Agreed - you really can't compare the two. I just can't see Lernal putting a Bargle into power - he's more likely to favor a local thief. > Ericall comes off in the > Norwold modules (Test of the Warlords et al) as needing help, and > "learning on the job," (this allows the PCs, as they should, to play a > central role in the events the modules unfurl) but not dumb. Again, agreed. > IMO, in > some cases even DotE adopts the mindset of the Alphatian upper classes - > Ericall is a Fighter, not a Wizard, so he is portrayed as somewhat > second-rate. I definitely see this portrayal, not just in the Norworld part, but in all of DoTE. > donno - I see your point to some extent, but I also don't think DotE > treated Norwold *that* badly, given the amount of space they spent on it > (and, as many fans of Alphatia will tell you, they didn't spend much > time on any part of that Empire; in retrospect it might have been better > if they had two boxed sets, one for Thyatis and one for Alphatia, and > devoted more time & space to each. I think more space would have been good, but I also think the boxed set did a good job on explaining the 2 big powers of the world - it certainly fit in more detail than many HWR/GAZ products did. Given the interrelatedness of the two (two sides of the same coin I think is a good analogy) it made some sense to arrange the product as they did - and this way both Thyatis and Alphatia fans would buy it too, if folks had picked one side or the other as their favorite by then (we had gotten a fair bit of detail on each, after all). > for us to fill in, which to me is one of the fun things about both. You > can always have Norwold be as you picture it to be and ignore the short > & minor references in DotE that you dislike). Oh, I do. (Well, I would if I ever DMed regularly again.) - Mischa A newspaper consists of just the same number of words whether there be any news in it or not - Henry Fielding ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or two bored to care? In-Reply-To: <387269D7.713058CF@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I love Misha's quotes at the bottom of his mails. > Has nothing to do the Mystara, nevertheless. > Oh, well. Thanks! Nice to know the .sigs are appreciated. I just put a whole bunch of used ones (and a couple other quotes - about 150K total) on my webpage. Still about 60K lying around on my desktop, which has been a pretty fairly stable number the past couple years. Mystara-relevant: I also have made available the Tanagoro HWR finally, in addition to the previous four net-HWRs, on my page - http://www.pitt.edu/~megst19 - Mischa A newspaper consists of just the same number of words whether there be any news in it or not - Henry Fielding ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:32:17 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: what map do you want next? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since my last post on the list went unnoticed, i will now ask you to order the next map you want me to do.I think Thyatis mainland would be good in order to follow the events described in the last PWA 1016 (awesome by the way). I would greatly like to have your opinions. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:25:17 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: some interesting stuff at titan games this week!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (D&D) (Basic Rules) Basic Rules (Erol Otus Cover) (2014) [$3, G] B2: The Keep on the Borderlands (9034) [$3.25, F] B4: The Lost City (9049) [$17.5, VF] B6: The Veiled Society (9086) [$15, F] B7: Rahasia (9115) [$17, VF] (Challenger (Unified) Rules) Wrath of the Immortals Boxed Set (1082) [$25, Box G-Contents VF] (Companion Rules) CM4: Earthshaker! (9128) [$11, G] (Expert Rules) Expert Rules Booklet (Erol Otus cover) (2015) [$3, P] X1: The Isle of Dread (9043) [$2.5, G] X1: The Isle of Dread (orange cover) (9043) [$2, Fa] O1: The Gem and the Staff (9050) (inserts loose)[$9.5, VF] X2: Castle Amber (9051) (inserts loose)[$13, VF] XSOLO: Lathan's Gold (9082) (interior pencil)[$4.5, F] O2: Blade of Vengeance (9108) [$11, VF] (Immortal Rules) IM2: The Wrath of Olympus (9189) [$8.5, F] (Master Rules) M1: Into the Maelstrom (9159) [$5.5, P] M2: Vengeance of Alphaks (9148) (photocopied insert)[$7.5, G] M3: Twilight Calling (9174) (photocopied insert)[$8.5, F] (Misc.) AC5: Dragon Tiles II - The Revenge of Rusak (labeled AC3) (9145) [$15, VF] (Mystara Campaign) Gaz1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (9193) [$16, F] -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:38:50 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: yalu region MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the stuff about the yalu region is also at my site http://m3.easyspace.com/clenarius/index.htm under the arm of the immortal section. I also remade the maps originaly drawn by Christian Constantin to make them easier to download and more TSR-like. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:09:08 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Greetings! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyway, I'm rambling now. I just wanted to introduce myself and to let > people know that I'm out here. I'd also like to volunteer with any > efforts to develop new Mystara stuff for the Net, especially if it has to > do with the Religions, Immortals or Outer Planes of Mystara. > > Thanks, > Jeremy Welcome Jeremy! Nice to see new blood in the mailing list. (Down, Morphail!) Being out in the open could be just as dangerous as lurking in the shadows, especially here in the MML. We've got our share of mad wizards, crazy elves, zzonga addicts, over-zealous clerics, evil politicians, vampires, werewolves, and all the rest of 'em just like in Mystara. Kit Navarro Glantrian Paparazzi fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:46:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: what map do you want next? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:32:17 +0100 thibault sarlat writes: > Since my last post on the list went unnoticed, i will now ask you to > order the next map you want me to do.I think Thyatis mainland would > be > good in order to follow the events described in the last PWA 1016 > (awesome by the way). > I would greatly like to have your opinions. Well, I would like to see a post-Wrath map of Alphatia (or where it used to be...). Mainly because then it would be relatively easy for me to make an Underocean map. Other thing that would be neat for me is an Undersea map. But then, that's probably just me. The Thyatis map sounds good too. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:39:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Psionics question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone! Another question for you. I'm about to let one of my players use a psionicist IMC and this is the first time we try this class in our game. I've basically sorted out all of the problems and solved them for now, except one that keeps bugging me. For this reason I've resorted to this forum to have another view on the matter. So, on with the question. On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the psionicist require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask you: is the mind of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open when he uses a psionic power, in order to determine if another psionicist/psionic creature can affect him? Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure Elemental) considered open when he does so? Again, thanx for your time and your answers. ;) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:46:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:48:33 James Ruhland wrote: >Caroletti wrote: >> counterpart, he as the Stalker). That doesn't mean we are profoundly sure >and >> right in believing "our" country to be much better than the other...it >implied >> a sort of autoirony that the Alphathian guy showed to possess, I think. >> >Ok, well I wasn't really referring to Jens/Stalker with that one. He seems >"sane" 8-) *LOL* You obviously haven't read my discussions on DND-L with the moderator there over the 'Spellcasting causes Free Attacks' rule in 3e. If you had, you might call me sane :) (there certainly is... "something rotten in the state of Denmark) > >> I perfectly agree on the "Dupuisian Heresy". Alphathia was transformed by >Ann >> Dupuis in an enlightened country that seems to owe a lot to the western >> political ideals...I mean: free the slaves, institute more democratical >> institutions (just take a look to Favian Vern, that seems to be a cross >between >> M.L.King and ol'Abraham Lincoln). [Hey, I don't want to talk of RW >politics, >> it's just an example]. >> >Yes. I'm probably not allowed to get into that anymore for now, though. >I've filled my quota for awhile. Well, I must admit that I sort of liked it. "Finally my Alphatian people has given me something to be truly proud about other than merely our Magical Might". In truth, my 'Stalker' character is not really your common Alphatian wizard - he was an apprentice of Terari and shares a similar mindset. For example, in WotI he was one of the Alphatians who helped the Glantrians accused of murdering Torenal escape (though he lived to somewhat regret that once he saw what happened to Aasla and the people and Skyships there). So from his point of view the 'Dupuisian' version of Alphatia was a good thing. He may have started out as a somewhat 'unenlightened Alphatian' but later became more understanding of non-spellcasters - that's how I played him anyway (ah, the 'good ol' days). Well, time to end this. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:27:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Psionics question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM wrote: > > Hi everyone! Hi! > On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the > psionicist require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask > you: is the mind of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open > when he uses a psionic power, in order to determine if another > psionicist/psionic creature can affect him? By the official rules, I don't believe so. The psionics rules at the back of Skills and Powers state that a closed mind can only be opened if the defenses subject's defenses are voluntarily lowered OR if the psionicist beats the defenses down. That says to me that the mind has natural barriers that will prevent the psionicist from getting through even if the subject isn't paying attention. I would probably rule that the psionicist can't use any defenses until he stops using his other psionic powers, but that's just me. Unofficially, I could see the psionicist being severly crippled if his mind is opened every time he uses his powers. After all, in a contest of two psionicists it would become a waiting match to see who is going to use a power first and leave their mind open for attack. Hmm... That could be cool too, like a gunfight at high noon - who'll draw first? > Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require > concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure > Elemental) considered open when he does so? My reading of the rules suggests that this wouldn't be the case, since the mage isn't really lowering his defenses specifically for the psionicist. In addition, I'd suspect that this would overpower the psionicist immensely, since he could pick off spell-casters as they were casting their spells or while they were concentrating. I'd probably definitely leave non-psionicist's minds closed in these instances. But that's just my $.02, Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: Psionics question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM meandered fecklessly... > On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the psionicist > require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask you: is the mind > of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open when he uses a > psionic power, in order to determine if another psionicist/psionic creature > can affect him? > Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require > concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure > Elemental) considered open when he does so? Nope and nope. Barring unusual circumstances, a mind is only open if forced open through use of a psionic power, such as Contact or the psionic attacks. Contact does not work on other psionicists (perhaps unless they are willing). Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:48:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. . > *LOL* You obviously haven't read my discussions on DND-L with the > moderator there over the 'Spellcasting causes Free Attacks' rule in > 3e. If you had, you might call me sane :) (there certainly is... > "something rotten in the state of Denmark) > Well, I guess no list member can truely be called "sane," I just meant that by my standards you qualified as "sane," but I paraphrased 8-). > > In truth, my 'Stalker' character is not really your common > Alphatian wizard > Well, I don't really mean anything against that sort of thing, as such. IMO, PCs aren't supposed to be "your common Karameikan fighter," or "your common Heldannic Knight," or whatever; they're supposed to be exceptional, different, etc. My problem is when everyone in the society starts behaving "exceptionally," where the pattern of events is at variance with what the supposed defining characteristics of this or that society is. Where (and this is key) the nuance, gradations, and multi-facetedness is all drained away. (Notice how this time I avoided specific criticisms of the way any particular Mystaran nation was depicted). Anyhow, as to my specific criticisms - what especially bothered me was that towards the end all the more admirable aspects of Thyatis were scripted over to being characteristics of Alphatia (openess to other cultures, AKA the Jafili Incident, some inclination towards democratic representation, mentions of "Alphatian Citizenship," prominent fighters as respected figures in society {Broderick}, etc.), and only highlighting the negative aspects of Thyatis - while almost completely ignoring (or quickly negating, as in Esterhold) the negative aspects of Alphatia. Anyhow, the above is a synopsis of my view. I suppose it appears we're getting into this discussion further. My fault - I brought it up. It's just that I was going to try to avoid it, but I failed to discipline myself. Sorry. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: what map do you want next? Comments: To: mystara@com.bi Thibault wrote: > Since my last post on the list went unnoticed, i will now ask you > to order the next map you want me to do. I think Thyatis mainland > would be good in order to follow the events described in the last > PWA 1016 > If you do that, please consult with me because there were some things that happened that I didn't put in the Events themselves (like Kantrium, etc), that you might want to put on any map that you do. Btw: The "Geographic Entrys" for 1017 will have some more detail of what some of the various Thy Dominians did during those events, and what happened to them. Also, time permitting, I hope to post little suplimental chunklets/stories that can be useful to flesh things out more. Assuming anyone's interested, of course. Oh - any such things that do get posted will be posted to the MML & MMB rather than (directly) inserted as updates into the Almanac. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:58:32 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alexander Osias Subject: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael Whelan, what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a Mystara 3E sourcebook? We'd need some guys good not only with fantasy figures, but the stunning backgrounds and architecture of the world... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:15:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Portrayals of Norwold Mischa wrote: > True, but the Pearl Islands and Ochalea for instance were not given > as negative a portrayal (IMO) and those are what I would call the > closest Thyatian equivalents. > I suppose. But both those areas have been settled as part of one of the Empires (first Alphatia, then Thyatis after the big revolt) for a fairly long time. Hinterlands is probably Thyatis' closest equivilent to Norwold, but I guess you're right: the Hinterlands (what little info on it is given) isn't treated condecendingly to the same degree Norwold is. > Yep - and each was the major setting for the modules - Karameikos > at low levels, Norworld at high ones. The correlation is a fairly > strong one I believe. > I kind of think they might have originally wanted to set "Test of the Warlords" in Karameikos but geographic limitations made it harder for such a wide-ranging campaign/module there - so they replicated some of the fundimental characteristics of Karameikos in a much larger area. But then I could be wrong about that, too. *shrug* > I wouldn't include naive. Over-burdened and inexperienced, but > managing well and able to buck the will of 2 major empires and > still hold his own. > well, ok. > In DOTE, we get him portrayed as whiny (it claims Eriadna granted > the land just so he wouldn't annoy her) and unwilling to listen to > criticism and advice (despite the prominence of several advisers in > CM1) > Yes, you're right about that. Especially the stuff about advice (since one of the aspects of CM1 isn't just his prominent NPC advisor types, of which I'd include his wife, but also the PCs are supposed to fill that role as kind of a "Royal Council" that he can consult). > I definitely see this portrayal, not just in the Norworld part, but > in all of DoTE. > Some of that is "mood-setting" - it infuses the reader with the attitude the average Alphatian has. But I *do* agree with you: when this stuff apears that way in the DM Sourcebook, it validates it as "the true picture." I guess it also provides people with two ways to portray/run Ericall: as either the King as in the Norwold modules, or as Eriadna's whiny son. IMO the guys who did the Norwold stuff for the 1016 struck a fairly good balance - Ericall isn't portrayed as an incompetent who can't learn; he tries another tactic (organizing a League since not every realm in Norwold wants to submit to any one King), and ends up doing a fairly good job. So if you haven't checked out that stuff, I'd recomend you do: I think you'll like the Norwold of this year's MA much better than the one from DotE or the PWAs. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara You wrote: > Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael > Whelan, what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a > Mystara 3E sourcebook? > Julie Bell Chris Achelleos Don Mainz Johnathon Bowser Joseph Lisner Keith Parkinson Louis Royo Rowena Merrill Tim Hildebrandt Steve Woron Olivia deBerdinis (for Mystara's ladies 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:04:10 -0800 Reply-To: gwxup@excite.com Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Stuff about Me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that PBEM's set in Mystara could become very popular. I'm running one right now, I'm lurking in another that I think is about to get started (I haven't heard much about it since I signed up), and I've heard several people on this list saying they are planning to start one or would like to. If you do start another Mystara PBEM game, you might want to let us know. I think you'll find that a lot of people would want to be lurkers (if not players). Mine already has as many lurkers as it does players, and for a while there were actually more lurkers than players. Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:14:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara In-Reply-To: <002b01bf5720$650ec520$441da7cb@167.29.68.aurumcybertech.co m.ph> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:58 AM 1/5/00 +0800, you wrote: >Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael Whelan, >what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a Mystara 3E >sourcebook? I'm always partial to the old standbys- Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and Jeff Easley. I'd probably toss in Brom, too, if only for a different tone. He'd probably do some interesting things with the Savage Coast. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Greetings! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We've got our share of mad wizards, crazy elves, zzonga > addicts, over-zealous clerics, evil politicians, vampires, werewolves, and > all the rest of 'em just like in Mystara. > > Kit Navarro > Glantrian Paparazzi > fanavarro@pacific.net.ph I'm indigned: you didn't mention "honest and brave soldiers who fought in the WotI war". And we fought also for Glantri! [ Welcome Jeremy. With the hope you're NOT an Alphathiaphile...oh nevermind, just joking...] Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:19:22 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: what map do you want next? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the thyatis maps is done by now (i mean the geographical figures, the coastal limits and the road are being traced as we speak). So i will keep a copy of the map like it is now for later use and will keep on drawing another one so that it looks like the one in DotE. If you would like to see appearing new features then tell me what and where and i 'll send you a draft of the region. As for Underocean i'll do that for you.The question is what scale do you want (72miles per hex, 24 miles per hex (that will give some big map but it's feasable) or 8 miles per hex (please nooooo!!) ? anyway no problem for me, i'll do it, just tell me the scale. As for the endless spine region i'll check out where it is but i think i have done it already but it has not been released yet cause it will be on the next issue of the tome of mystara on january 15th 2000.Otherwise , i'll do it or try to do it. In any case , when you have already made devellopment for a region , please send me the drafts or give me info so that my view of the place fits yours. I am waiting for more demands. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:49:00 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Greetings! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Welcome Jeremy! Nice to see new blood in the mailing list. (Down, Morphail!) Being out = in the open could be just as dangerous as lurking in the shadows, = especially here in the MML. We've got our share of mad wizards, crazy elves, zzonga addicts, over-zealous clerics, evil politicians, vampires, werewolves, = and >all the rest of 'em just like in Mystara. Oh Fracisco old freind, as if you could stop me... This young new noble is just what I need in order to enhance my powers. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) Who just came back from the old world (London) and bought the book = "Lestat- the vampire", saw the movie "Interview With A Vampire" and just = enjoyed the gloomy weather. (Only to come back and find his own nation drenched with rein and = lightning and thunder...uhahahah) Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:34:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Alexander Osias wrote: > Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically > priced Michael Whelan, > what other (artists) would you choose to do the art > for a Mystara 3E > sourcebook? Personally, I always think of Stephen Fabian's artwork when I think of Mystara. Afterall, he did the interior artwork for the majority of the Gazetteers. Some people think his stuff is a bit on the cartoonish side, but I think it has a great amount of detail and unique flair while maintaining a touch of humor (do I sound like a wine-taster or what?). Anyway, I also think those elements describe Mystara as a whole - hence, I think he is a perfect choice. Just my opinion, though... -Damon ===== "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:33:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/01/00 02:07:38 GMT Standard Time, aosias@I-MANILA.COM.PH writes: > Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael Whelan, > what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a Mystara 3E > sourcebook? > > We'd need some guys good not only with fantasy figures, but the stunning > backgrounds and architecture of the world... My choices? 1. Larry Elmore. 2. Larry Elmore. 3. LARRY ELMORE!!!!! Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming here...;-) Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:50:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Psionics question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the psionicist >require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask you: is the mind >of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open when he uses a >psionic power, in order to determine if another psionicist/psionic creature >can affect him? Hey DM, I've grappled with the somewhat poor rules on Telepathy myself ;) Any psionic creature with a defence mode has a closed mind is how I play it. You can potentially have psionicists who dont have a defence mode - but I would encourage any psi worth his brain to take Mind Blank at level 1, which is up all the time - even when a psi sleeps. Reading the CPH again, I think the definition of an open mind is basically one which the Contact devotion works on. Closed minds need to be forced open by psychic combat. Psionicists have closed minds. But then, being a psionic Luddite I use the Complete Psionics book, I know of at least three other psionic systems, so take your pick ;) >Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require >concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure >Elemental) considered open when he does so? Anyone who is not a psionicist is Meat for the Psychic Beast. Nonpsionicists always have open minds, I believe, ie you can use the contact devotion to pave the way for further nastiness. I must say, from past experience, I would grant a "saving throw" versus contact, equal to half the targets Wisdom score, in the case of nonpsionicists. And I would say that if the psionicist fails his power check for contact, the target is made aware of the contact attempt. Telepathy is not over the top in a fight, but unless the target is psionic himself he doesn't know he is being messed up. If you don't grant the poor victim a saving throw and a (admittedly small) chance of noticing, then the telepath can just go around the place brainraping people with impunity. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:03:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000104231456.007c0e40@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael Whelan, > >what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a Mystara 3E > >sourcebook? > > I'm always partial to the old standbys- Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and > Jeff Easley. Never knew Whelan was so highly priced, but it doesn't surprise me. His covers for the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series by Tad Williams are the finest book covers I've ever seen. I don't remember Easley and Elmore much off-hand, though both names are familiar. Caldwell seems very one-tracked, with almost all his art being of the half-naked busty female, whether he's doing module covers, book covers, GAZ covers... What about the guy who used to do the Palladium stuff? Name eludes me ATM - something Parkinson?? - Mischa A newspaper consists of just the same number of words whether there be any news in it or not - Henry Fielding ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:21:30 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i would like to see some Elmore and Ted Nasmith too -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:53:26 -0800 Reply-To: gwxup@excite.com Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: GRIP (was Stuff about Me) Comments: To: ironwolf@ewa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GRIP? never heard of it, can you tell me more about it or where I can go to find out more. Thanks. Gecko GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@xoommail.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 22:41:57 -0800, ironwolf@ewa.net wrote: > I may at that. I'm not sure about e-mail, I favor real-time sessions myself. My > brother was part of an IRC Traveller game, run by some of the original > designers, for over a year. (It unfortunately ended badly) > > I've also considered looking into GRIP, which was designed to run RPG's over the > net, it has most everything any RPG needs, including dice-bots and such. > Whatever the case, if stuff locally doesn't work out, I'll probably do that. > > IronWolf > _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:12:09 -0800 Reply-To: gwxup@excite.com Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Psionics question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aloha, > On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the psionicist > require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask you: is the mind > of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open when he uses a > psionic power, in order to determine if another psionicist/psionic creature > can affect him? > Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require > concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure > Elemental) considered open when he does so? Well without knowing which psionic power(s) your refering to, this is my take on it: A mind is only open if the person actively tries to lower his/her defenses, and even then there is a little resistance that the psionicist must still overcome as a mind is never truely open. I think that spellcasting and psionic use may make a weakness in the minds defenses for the duration (especially in Psionics, less so in spellcraft), but that it is only a weakness. I've used psionics in my Mystara campaigns for a long time and I've never had anyproblems with it. > > Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac still reading through the new almanac, I just finished the Alphatian sea file. looks terrific so far. Gecko GWxup@excite.com Gecko_G@xoommail.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:13:08 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal time travelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ahh, but could he? One question, to me, has always been - Can Immortals >really time travel? If so, then how come they aren't all considered as >"eternal" (in the sense that no one can remember their origins) as the >claque of oldest ones (such as Ixion) - Benekander can be as "old" as >Ixion, if they can free themselves from the timestream. I would reckon they all can, but the Immortals of Time police it. After all, its in their best interests to do so - just like it would be in an Entropics best interests to mess the timeline up. > Other uses, well they cannot be easily untangled from their social effects >- the ramifications they have on others. The example I was going at being >one - Wishing someone never having been born. And your above example, Ixion >nipping Rad in the bud being another. The "first circle" of effects will be >those tied to the "targeted" individual - Gabriella doesn't marry Thincol, >since he doesn't exist - perhaps she marries someone else, but that someone >isn't Thincol. Her children are not the children we now know - even if the >"time stream" flows back as close as possible so that they are named >Eusebius, Stefania, and Asteriela - they weren't raised by the same father >and didn't have the same formative experiences because of that, so they >will not be identical to those who were Thincol's children. If Ixion nips >Rad in the bud, people who had contacted him will also be affected - >probably (certainly) Glantri is a different place, because there won't be >anything focused around Rad, the dynamics he initiated will not occur or >will not have occured in the same manner. This sort of changing of the past would probably just end up causing chaos. It could start a paradox that starts a chain reaction that destroys the entire universe - granted, the destruction may in fact be quite limited, merely our own galaxy. (Sorry, had to get the Doc Brown quote off). Seriously though, Chronomancer hints that nasty things can happen if you start messing around with the timeline. The Oard module complicates matters further, as if I recall the reasons the mortals get conscripted into defeating the oards is because an Immortal, due to its sheer power, causes a massive disruption in time simply by existing in another time - before said Immortal has fooled around with anything. So, the only Immortals in my view who would risk it are the Entropics. If Ixion did try and fool with time, and he happened to completely wreck a nation like Thyatis by some snowball paradox, only Entropy has been served. Also, I like the concept of the Immortals of Time anchoring the lifelines of important mortals, so that they are immune to paradox effects. So, after the demise of dear Thincol, once his lifeline has been anchored in the timestream, what he has done is an immutable fact, and simply cannot be changed by timetravellers. As for the Time immortals getting some advantages when it comes to fooling with the timeline - hey, they are TIME immortals. I would imagine that time travel is their province. Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal time travelling. Munch wrote:. > I would reckon they all can, but the Immortals of Time police it. > Ahh, Det-ective Munch. Quis Custodes Ipsos custodiet? This sort of sounds like the old Wish advantage the Immortals of Thought had (later rectified). See below. Det-ective Munch. . . > Also, I like the concept of the Immortals of Time anchoring the > lifelines of important mortals, so that they are immune to paradox > effects. > Well, that's a good idea, but if the only ones who do so are Immortals of Time, then they can naturally favor "their own" guys and (oops, sorry for the mistake guys) let the candidates of other Spheres sometimes slip through the cracks. > As for the Time immortals getting some advantages when it comes to > fooling with the timeline - hey, they are TIME immortals. > I would imagine that time travel is their province. > True to a point. But none of the Immortals have exclusive providence over "their" sphere - all Immortals can make use of materiel goods, shape them as they will; Matter isn't the exclusive province of the Sphere of Matter. All can employ spells and otherwise shape and use energies - Energy isn't just the exclusive province of the Sphere of Energy. All Immortals can plan, scheme, research, philosophize, and the like - thinking isn't just the province of the Sphere of Thought. So I'm not sure how much everyone else should be restricted in manipulating Time, unless one comes up with a system that grants perogatives over the domain of the various Spheres to "their" Immortals and limits the ability of "non-member" Immortals to wield the domains they aren't a part of. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:40:35 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/00 3:22:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > and lacks the grammer and phonetics of the Terari/Tylion quotes. Albeit...one > could rationalize that the material is a summarized layman's explaination of > Terari/Tylion's recollection of Alpher history....however that's not truly > specified. The way Tylion's role in Alpher history is handled in that > material further lends me to believe that the info presented was not intended > to be in-character. > True that it lacks his "speaking tone" voice, but who's to say he didn't have her read something he wrote (or an Alph historian he likes wrote)? I tend to take all the "History of X as the Player's Know it" stuff to be "in character" - even if not in the "voice" of a specific individual, one has to take what is said with a grain of salt. Certainly one shouldn't read the Player's History of Alphatia as the unvarnished truth - it's factually accurate (as DotE says), but far from neutral in tone - it presents things in the light the Alphatians would, favorable to them and dismissive of non-Alphatians. Appropriate for a History from the point of view of Alphatian characters (player or otherwise), but not without its limitations. That was in part my point - it then allows for "re-interpretations" - which may be factually identical but certainly vastly different in tone and context.>> to say it is directly his perception is a great assuption. personally i figure that the history text is a summerized version. remember that the text is intended for the player and due to ommisions, for the DM. personally i would have rather seen the players guide offer an indisputable boxed account of alphatian history and a seperate DM's version offered elsewhere. > > < episode where the children can "will" anything they want to happen, and abuse > their power. . .>> > > an old addage....one that has surface in RPGs, tv, and literature works. i > make no secret of my favoring DotE era Alphatia. IMO the Alphers are an ideal > catalyst to promote adventures and to provide a widespread adventuring > setting. > Well, I liked it back then as well, before it got ruined and the ambiguity got drained away. I tended to like both Empires (though favoring the Thyatian over the Alphatian) because they were, IMO, more socially complex - having things one might admire as well as aspects that were disreputable or even wicked. Often the other Gaz's (with the noitable exception of the other really popular one, Glantri) presented almost idealized societies - those parts of which were negative being clearly the "villianous" portions that were distinct from the "good" mainstream. In both Alphatia and Thyatis the good co-existed along with the bad, often in the same person.>> strangely...my preference for alphatia is partly due to the chaotic nature. as mentioned it promotes adventure and adventurers. also there seems to be a strange "order in the chaos". though alien to foriegners, imo alphers see the social structure as perfectly normal (even the nonspellcasters). afterall it has been in place for 2000+ years. likewise thyatis proved a suitable setting for several campaigns. a common plot for the pcs was involved in stemming or contributing to some of the political and social plays for power. as a matter of fact, one of the reasons one of our parties expanded out of thyatis was that things got a bit hot in thyatis for them. [snip] > Zandors running about. IMO the Alphers have been overly stereotyped as > child-like instead of adhering to being chaotic. similarly, Thyatis has > suffered a similar fate, with its heroic, efficient, and at times corrupt > personna being replaced by ineptness and widespread loathing. > Well, "child like" is a bit overmuch for Alphatia as a whole. I think their "tantrum" over the Old Alphatia Air/Flame war can be characterized as childish, but that's not the same as declaring all of Alphatian history or all of Alphatian society or all Alphatians as childish (as for the nobility, narcissistic would be appropriate, but even that would be a broad generalization that ignores those members of their nobility that are concentious - clearly if it weren't for such persons there wouldn't be an Alphatian Empire, and their is.) Now, what someone like "Vivianna" says in for example the "Tale of Two Empires" is another thing all together, written as a polemic (and I admited as much at the time) - but hardly any more or less out of line than the commonly found pro-Alphatian in-Character "histories of this or that". Distortive to be true, and though broadly reflective of my own opinion it isn't completely so.>> well...that is one of the problems with the Fire/Air war. to us and the mainstrean mystarans it does seem trivial. however, i tended to look at it as a final straw type event between these two factions. imo and iirc the old alphers were mostly mages and clerics were few. in some ways the Fire and Air factions could be seen as forms of magical religion and their followers reacting in an almost religious zeal. when Alphaks declared the Fire mages to be superior, it was simular to him declaring "his faith" versus theirs. religious aspects asside, the matter could have also been politically based. as in many civil wars, ideals often become the rallying cry between the factions. however, the real reason may have been to decide who controls the government. an example would be the american civil war. though the matter of slavery is often tauted as the root of that war, the truth is that the war was to decide who would run the government (state or central government). the fate of slavery being part of that powerstruggle. given the extent of the war damage, i tend to prefer the religious aspect. however, the destruction could also be symbolic of the war going too far. > > one of the reasons i favor a preWrath Alphatia is that the Alphers were > basically racially isolated and really did not have to explain themselves to > the barbarians. the exceptions were NW and the IoD where other peoples came > into play. Wrath saw some strange revelations. certain barbaric peoples were > catered to while others were ignored for plot reasons. > See my other comments re. plot stuff, wherin I come down on the side of "its ligitimate, kind of, to mess with things for the purpose of developing the plotline." One could always put the "proper" slant on things - from Eriadna's point of view their is much to gain and little to loose from indulging Stefan: she guarantee's he's out of the war, and by doing so insures that the rest of the world slumbers and doesn't join any "anti-Alphatia Crusade" the way they did against the Master. Alphatia's threat to most of these nations is, on the face of it, as great or greater than Hule's (Alphatia happily ignores Ylaruam's soverignity when they need to - something Alphatia isn't concerned about because the Ylari after all *are* barbarians, but which *could* have led to recognition of the danger if everyone paid closer attention to that, and the ramifications that it had for all the other nations Alphatia would have to cross to get to Glantri, and indeed the threat it posed to everyone in the region if Alphatia won). >> [snip] as far as the Karameikan part is concerned, Eriadna's thinking on it was justified (alot to gain at no cost). still, i cannot fathom Stefan's reasoning in so prematurely changing sides. to be honest, i don't see karameikos's involvement as being able to turn the tide. oh i know that their contributions are tauted as saving darokin's butt, but that intervention is subject to some of the scripting of events that saturated wrath to support the rise of karameikos. karameikos's turncoat act and its aid to darokin set up the clear path to glantri. personally, if alliances were to be forged i would have thought that darokin would have sided with thyatis. as i see it, thyatian ports were more frequently visited than those of alphatia. anyway, darokin focuses on brun trade and would have been wary of a heavy alphatian presence on brun. think about it, if the alphers had assaulted glantri they probably would have stayed. likewise there is the distinct possibility that with large alphatian forces on brun, the alpher expansions might have continued. they may have gone for broke or they may have turned their attentions to the hks who were allied with glantri. > > "disgruntled minds" may be the more appropriate tag. > That's true. We're both disidents and heretics. But we have diferent heresies so we end up castigating each other for being non believers just as often (or more often) than we do our Orthodox (or, rather, "Dupuisian") foes 8-). (this segment meant as humor, btw. Only partly serious here).>> ironically...most of our disputes with each other seem to focus on miscommunication and our own developed loyalties to our respective favorite empires. i think we share a goodly number of goals, but differ on how they are achieved. the rest of the mml may not realize this but when James and myself are working in agreement on common material we are quite amiable towards each other and have been known to craft some interesting tidbits. > btw- sorry for the flagrant lack of proper capitalization. as some of you > know i had hand surgery a few days ago. my right hand now has four shiny > surgical steel pins in it and is encased in a cast. anyway i am having to > type one handed, so the capitalization thing is not intended to be > agitating....just a temporary neccessity. > Owch. Well get well soon. >> thanks....for those keeping count this one makes surgery number four since Nov. of 1995; wrist rebuilt , back/shoulder, hand (thumb), and hand (fingers). number five will be coming up soon when they remove the pins. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:40:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or too bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/00 3:23:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > well....it is only natural to favor one side over another. in many ways it is > like playing yourself in chess or tic-tac-toe. intentionally or > unintentionally you are going to end up favoring one side over the other. the > events in Wrath were designed and scripted to alter preWrath Mystara to > justify the rise of Karameikos, castration of Thyatis, and the removal of a > "unified" Alphatian people. > ......... . .which then they weren't sure what to do with so they ended up bundling them all back into more or less the same Empire (just part of it was ruling the skies of the HW while the rest of it was restored on the surface in almost the same form). Wrath wasn't really a bad deal for the Alphatians. What made them so different from what they were in DotE was how they were handled in 1) Champions of Mystara (though only a little bit there) & the Voyage of the Princess Ark more generally and 2) in subsiquent materiels, mainly the PWAs & JA. The Alphatians of those are sort of "looking glass" Alphatians, IMO - it's like we were dumped into one of the Alternate Realities we were talking about, where everyone was recognizable but with subtle (and not so subtle) changes. One wonders who messed with the timestream and how, but since things were different it's hard to remember when they were the same and notice what caused the "shift.">> imo...Wrath was probably seen as a way to stir Mystara up as a setting....probably more for the pending conversion to adnd. from post Wrath sources and from K:KOA and G:KOM you can tell which kingdom were to get the lion's share. i suspect that had official material continued there probably would have never been a unified nace or that thyatis would have survived as an imperial force. unfortunately (or fortunately depending on gamer) this swing was stifled a bit by the stoppage of the Mystaran product line. so now...mystara is in our hands. events may have unfolded to alter the goegraphy, but the people do not change so easily. hopefully things will return to normal DotE attributes. << Getting back a bit to some of the stuff I mentioned in my other post - Wrath made me a stronger supporter of Thyatis since I rooted for the underdog a bit (a lot) & didn't like the trend. The PWAs (especially II, III, and JA) hardened my outlook (probably too much, but it keeps getting re-enforced instead of fading, because of. . .well, stuff I shouldn't get into), because IMO it made the Alphatians caricatures of themselves - they became extreme versions of themselves: Eriadna became not only wise but just and caring, concerned about the welfare of barbarians. Zandor became a total flake and crazed moron (where before he was a dangerously intelligent psychopath, smart). Alphatians discovered a previously unknown love of democratic institutions and decided they should be egalitarians with their barbarian slaves, etc. This was, to me, distasteful because it ruined what Alphatia was and made it into something new and "Barneyesque".>> strangely enough....in my own campaign i was pretty even handed when it came to alphatia and thyatis. most gaming unfolded on alphatia so that's where the bulk of my attentions were. it was with wrath that i tossed my lot with the alphatian cause. imo thyatis was just acting out of character in the war and that prejudiced me against them. to a degree i accepted post wrath events as making ammends for the crap that had befell alphatia. the part that bothered me was the "kinder-gentler" alphatia that was created. with the product line and my own campaign dead, it was less of a problem. however, now i am lucky enough to be part of the almanac and can offer support for a more traditional alphatian people. however, those attentions with nace and hw-alphatia have further alienated me from the thyatian theatre and pretty much tagged me as being anti-thyatian. personally i see this as a bit of an exageration as just because nace profits in some way...does not mean that it should be perceived as a direct hindrence to thyatis. > > strategically, tactically, and politically the > war was handled pretty badly. IMO the Thyatians alliance with Glantri was > weakly justified. the Glantri/HK alliance being more difficult to take > (warrior clerics allying with heretict mages). > I don't disagree. Plus, rather than aid each other, two thirds of the time the "allies" were on strange, pointless crusades that were strategic side shows at best and detracted from the main business.>> yes...for an alliance the combatants weren't very cohesive in proposing a defensive front. it seemed to be a series of excuses to justify the combatants to go defensive behind each supposed ally....allowing the alpher forces to face them in stages (divide and conquer). and the alliance had several opportunities utterly wasted. glantri/thyatian forces could have made a stand on the IoD. Hk/glantri forces could have attacked NW or even assaulted alphatia itself. militarily these may have had a limited affect, but politically they have made a continuation of the war more difficult for the alphers. also i'd like to add that both glantri and thyatis were both threatened by Rad's pursuit of the magic draining radiance. true...glantri has a sizable ratio of mages but a smaller populace than alphatia. thyatis has a smaller ratio but a more comparable populace to alphatia. either way, both have sizable stakes with the preservation of mage magic. and then add the cleric factor for both the HKs and thyatis. > i could have possibly see an > alliance had the Ethie allied with the Alphers....but that never happened. > That "gap" was too absurd for me to ignore, as anyone familiar with how I handled Wrath already knows (the Ethie alliance became a key one for Alphatia, though again their goals went unsatisfied because of Rad's dangerous meddling with things best left unmeddled with).>> which brings up another bit...Rad and the radiance are weak reason for the war to begin with. imo Rad's cause was a bit iffy to garner such levels of support. at most Rad's supporters should have been a small minority within pandius. but like the mortal combatants, the immortal alliances were also engineered. > of > course all of these alliances were scripted to balance out the sides and to > achieve the postWrath goals. > Mostly for the latter, since the sides were never "balanced" by them - the defections of Ochalea & Pearl Islands weakened Thyatis and were also not well explained (especially since the patron of the P.I's was on Rad's side, and thus one would think he'd have encouraged strong participation vs. Alphatia), the HKs & Glantri contributed essentially nothing to the war effort against Alphatia until very late, when HK participation in the battles in and around Thyatis was needed so that they could emerge from the war as "heros" (a outcome that was thankfully ignored/forgotten in later products). The better alliance for Thyatis to activate, after the fall of the "head" of the IoD at least, was Ostland - listed as a Thyatian "ally", they obviously could not have contributed that much in troops (though Northmen are reputedly tough fighters and good sailors), they'd have made a good "blocking point" and base for Thyatian fleets attempting to prevent the Alphatians from reaching the mainland. No, again - strategy took a back seat to plotline, the alliances not being "balanced" (balance might have required the Alphatians face a rebellion in Esterhold, rather than Thyatis facing defections from its provinces, and certainly requiring Thyatis' allies to participate more in the war effort itself), but rather designed to achieve the postWrath goals. And, as I said this in and of itself isn't an entirely bad thing - though for (different) aesthetic reasons neither of us like it. As I said in a post a couple weeks ago, this isn't Thucididies "Peloponesian War," it's an RPG, and story trumps "realistic" strategy.>> in wrath's content, "balance" and post wrath concerns went hand and hand. the war and alliances seemed to favor preempted balancing of numbers for fighting forces to level the discrepancies between glantri and alphatia. the problem was that these alliances were not thought well and they were never used any real affect. it was essentially an alliance in name only. << The "best" strategy IMO isn't even the one I used (wherin a lot of fighting did take place on the IoD) - the "best" strategy for Alphatia would have been to almost ignore Thyatis (simply defend on the IoD or do some probes/strikes against Thyatian positions to keep them off balance): land troops in Norwold. Sure, Norwold goes into Civil Disorder during the war, but the Alphatian forces can either ignore that too, or win it quickly for Ericall (he wins it in the end with little help, so he could likely win it big if they had to help). Sweep down through Heldann, ally with the Ethengari against Glantri, and win the war in a year or at most two while not spending a lot of time and troops in a war of attrition against Thyatis.>> i will agree with the ignore thyatis strategy. an assault through norwold would be the best avenue. an alliance with the ethie is a no brainer. but lets not forget the dwarves of rockhome. you also have the alphatian descended peoples within glantri (excluding flaems) which were likewise conveniently removed in wrath and in post wrath publications. i mean thyatis is alphatia's age old enemy/rival (and vice versa). these two have butted heads with events and scenarios that never erupted to an all out war which has typically been predicted to be devastating to both empires should it happen. thincol risks his empire for a kingdom he previously could care less for. the alphers risk their empire to first take on thyatis and still have to address glantri afterwards with whatever warmachine they have left. > > For OpHydra I went with a simple and efficient means to have the > Thyatians win. > I'm not criticising either their swift victory or them not winning faster, just the strategy they (and everyone else) uses - IMO, it has them dividing their forces too much and trying to achieve too many goals all at once. A more deliberate advance would have been sounder operationally.>> the strategy had one single goal in victory. however there were additional objectives included to support that objective. trader island is the main goal. to support that front thyatian control of the sealanes was needed. they massacred fire island to remove the pirate threat (i figured their discovery was a no brainer). open island was taken to provide a logistic foothold and remove a possible threat from the sealane. in hindsight i would have handled fire island and open island differently. i would have had them more as a follow up assaults. also i would have used smaller thyatian units than focusing upon the PWA cohorts. also, you have to remember that OpHydra was begun back on 10/06/97. > i wanted to avoid an overly complicated campaign as tactical > masterstrokes would surely draw criticism for such an easy thyatian > victory. > 1) IMO, the Thyatian deployment is overly complicated from a strategic point of view: concentration of forces would have been better. At one point I lost track of how many task forces the Thyatians had divided themselves into. My point is they should have gone after their objectives by stages: first securing the route to Trader's Island, then focusing on one of its cities first, and only later the other (and the island as a whole). Of course, unless Minrothad recieved re-enforcements, the Thyatian forces weren't in much danger of being defeated. *But* since they were separated into a variety of forces, none of which were really positioned to support any of the others, Thyatis was always in danger of suffering an embarassing defeat which, for political reasons, might have meant a failure of the war as a whole.>> it may appear complicated but it really isn't. one reason i went with assembly pointas for the assault groups was to avoid the possible problems with mass departures from various ports. i tried to demonstrate the coordination problems by altering assembling times. the progress of these task forces were also modified on a daily basis to further demostrate tthe multifacetted nature. the multifaccetted force was needed imo to meet the variety of objectives. with each task force tasked with a prespecified front, they really did not have to worry about coordinating their rates of movement. as for failure, that was doubtful. Task Force A and B are each sizable and could singularly go toe to toe with the entire Thadder warmachine if it could be assembled as a whole to meet either task force. <<2) On the other hand, this is exactly what you have NACE/Alphatia doing on the IoD - a wide-ranging campaign that achieved what could only be described as not only tactical but strategic masterstrokes, resulting in an easy victory. The latter isn't the grounds I'm criticising, though; once again it is division of forces - the Alphatians/NACE pursue more goals at once than the Thyatians do, operating separate forces from Gaity & Aegos to Dunadale City & Newkirk, none of which could re-enforce the other in the event that something happened. As such they are/were technically vulnerable to being defeated piecemeal. Only the plot prevented that from happening - see, events do trump strategic soundness in a RPG game. Even when we're the ones scripting them 8-).>> i have already cited the reasons for nace's sucess on the IoD. i did leave out another factor in both this thread and in the OpHydra messages for spoiler reasons. magic played a heavy role in the widespread deployment and the sense of surprise. i did note that Eusebius had enacted an investigation of the surprising victories. some findings will explain things a bit more. some of these lessens will also influence later events for the thyatian forces. if used the losses on the IoD are to act as influences for later relations between thyatis and nace. afterall, after minrothad there may be another offensive in that area as certain thadder folks flee to exile in ierendi to carry on the war. > > you are correct, the NACE offensives were tacked on for two reasons. > however, the cause was not one of animosity or retribution...though i > had figured it would draw your attentions. > Though again I'm not objecting so much to *that* it happened as to *how* it happened. And though IMO the rapidity of their success is almost satirical, that too isn't my foremost objection, for which see above.>> oh yes....i figured it would draw criticsm. that's one of the reasons i added the part about it being optional. that part of hydra does not directly affect the mainstream plotline and can easily be omitted. > > first i wanted to offer a counter/cost for Eusebius taking MG (balance). > At first I thought of bypassing this since I thought it was off the subject, but on second thought, since were talking about portraying "the enemy" as intelligent or not, it's worth getting into. As far as that goes, on balance giving up the entire Isle of Dawn (or at least the Thyatian half of it) for Minrothad is a bad deal all around (especially since the 'Thadders aren't Thyatian, while at least the inhabitants of the western half of the IoD have been Thyatian for a millenium and are thus more likely to be and stay loyal). I tend to prefer compact nations over vast sprawling ones (though I never give an inch if I have something 8-) - but if I were Eusebius the only way I'd trade away the rest of the Empire (which is really what he's doing) would be if in addition to the MG I "got" Ierendi & Karameikos as well, *AND* without making a whole lot of new enemies, *AND* if I could count on them being at least as loyal to the Empire as the IoDers were (the Duke of Westrourke notwithstanding, the IoD as mentioned was loyal for a thousand years. I highly doubt the same could be said of Kara, Min & Ierendi). It's a bad trade, made worse from Eusebius' point of view by the fact that it enlarges Thyatis' most virulent enemies. But again, that being the outcome you wanted I don't criticize you for following it - how it happens is another matter, since we're talking about strategic blunders.>> well i think that therein lies part of our differences in opinion. as i see it (at least in the alternative OpHydra timeline). thyatis is focusing more upon its mainland holdings. you have the pwas plots of independence movements on the IoD. nace is more insular and not perceived as a threat as alphatia had been. there is also the premise that minrothad will provide more revenue than all of the IoD kingdoms. that was actually taken from rw precedent in the american revolutionary war where the entirety of the north american colonies were economically insignificant to the small carribean island colonies. > > another choice of symbolism. heavy use of magic and depleted > That's another beef I have: because the Alphatians are magic heavy by comparison with other nations, their enemies (Thyatis in particular) are often portrayed as if they were magic poor. Again if this were the case one wonders why Thyatis ever existed in the first place. But this is perhaps a topic more suited for a thread of its own, so I'll leave it at that.>> have the thyatians been devoid of the use of magic in OpHydra? nope. thyatian magic has been both inferred and specifically cited as being used. if you notice, the thyatian forces have a luxery unseen by most thadder forces; they have excellant communications through magical means which have been crucial to several sucessful engagements. in fact, i made mention of the thyatians holding back to save their spellcasters for the percieved encounters with merchant princes inside MinCity and on Alfeisle. > yep...admitedly OpHydra is designed to prove a Thyatian win over the > Thadders. the military feat is not that awe inspiring. > True. IMO what keeps Thyatis from doing such things is probably "world opinion" (as if the WDL isn't enough for Thyatis to face, they hardly need to go around provoking everyone further by launching military land grabs against weaker states. Diplomacy ("treachery") to advance the Empire, as described in Test of the Warlords, is a better method, IMO.>> well....back when OpHydra was originally introduced political outcry was often cited. personally i never saw it as a big deal. thyatis is an imperialist empire and they have precedent at expansion. political outcry has come into play and a lack of action has been explained in OpHydra. as for diplomacy, i assure you that the fight for Minrothad as a whole will not end with each island and guild being overrun. there have already been some foreshadowing events offered to support this; notice the standoff-ish approach of several thyatian units. diplomacy is partly dependant upon the taking of trader island. imo treaties are usually worth only the paper and ink they are written upon. the show of force in taking trader island is a definte part of later negotiations. negotiations also come into heavy play with the optional nace offensives. through negotiation the war there is stopped while the bulk of the thyatian warmachine is committed to hydra. negotiation and the ceasefire also preserves the thyatian presence on the IoD. if Hydra continues into ierendi, this presence will play a vital role in that campaign. > > agreed....there has to be something for the pcs to do. opponents should > be intelligent. > Well, I do think we agree on that, because the easy victories aren't memorable. It's the hard won victories I remember most strongly, whether achieved by my character or by PCs against my villians. War stories about that stuff some other time. I'm sleepy and can't get my mail to send (dang it! The darn thing was working perfectly a few min ago! I hope this isn't the same problem my ISP had on the 31st. Grrrr. . .) >> nah we agree. it is just that the OpHydra does not immediately offer such images of glory. alot is dependant upon the combatants. imo the thyatians are the superior forces and pretty much wipe their backsides with the thadders out in the open. heroic deeds are more often seen in urban assaults where battles are more man on man and less a matter of unit numbers. also, i'd like to admit that the lack of heroic battles comes from my own lackluster way of presenting them. when it is all said and done, i think that thyatian bards will most remember the assault on open island, harbortown, and mincity, and the way they cease hostilities with diplomacy. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:46:31 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Philosophical musings on Wishes & Immortal time travelling. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Quis Custodes Ipsos custodiet? >This sort of sounds like the old Wish advantage the Immortals of Thought had (later rectified). See below. Aww, I kept that :) Hey, the Immortals of Time came worse off too if you used that. x8 for Time for Wish... >> Also, I like the concept of the Immortals of Time anchoring the >> lifelines of important mortals, so that they are immune to paradox >> effects. >> >Well, that's a good idea, but if the only ones who do so are Immortals of Time, then they can naturally favor "their own" guys and (oops, sorry for the mistake guys) let the candidates of other Spheres sometimes slip through the cracks. Nahh. I'd say they all know that one. Paranoia, and all that... >> As for the Time immortals getting some advantages when it comes to >> fooling with the timeline - hey, they are TIME immortals. >> I would imagine that time travel is their province. >> >True to a point. But none of the Immortals have exclusive providence over "their" sphere - all Immortals can make use of materiel goods, shape them as they will; Matter isn't the exclusive province of the Sphere of Matter. All can employ spells and otherwise shape and use energies - Energy isn't just the exclusive province of the Sphere of Energy. All Immortals can plan, scheme, research, philosophize, and the like - thinking isn't just the province of the Sphere of Thought. So I'm not sure how much everyone else should be restricted in manipulating Time, unless one comes up with a system that grants perogatives over the domain of the various Spheres to "their" Immortals and limits the ability of "non-member" Immortals to wield the domains they aren't a part of. Yeah, this is true enough. Thanatos uses time travel in the HW series, so you have precedent. But I just assume that 95% of Immortal time travel is done by Immortals of Time, with good reason (preservation of their Sphere and ideals), 4% is done by Immortals up to no good who get sent packing by said Immortals of Time, and 1% is Thanatos, who does whatever he wants ;) My PCs are almost Immortals now, so when they get there and I run a few Immortal adventures for em I'll tell you how it goes and see if time travel turns up (probably). (It seemed like a good idea at the time having rmunch as my email address. What can I say. It was years ago. I'm older now :) And I'm too lazy to change it :) Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:22:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Alex wrote: > strange "order in the chaos". though alien to foriegners, > imo alphers see the social structure as perfectly normal > (even the nonspellcasters). afterall it has been in place > for 2000+ years. > With remarkably little change (almost stasis in fact) for a society that prides itself on creative inovation. . . > well...that is one of the problems with the Fire/Air war. > to us and the mainstrean mystarans it does seem trivial. > however, i tended to look at it as a final straw type event > between these two factions. > Notice that I didn't criticize the origins/reasons for the war (they can fight over whatever they'd like) - the end game, however: The Air faction has the war won. The Fire faction is sueing for peace (after deposing Alphaks). That's when they decide to reduce the world to gravel and move elsewhere. That's just a petty, destructive act that can't be justified within the context of the war between the factions (which is over by that point). Heck, if they want to slaughter the last remaining Fire followers, it wouldn't be as big a deal - sure, it would confirm them as not nice folks, but it's another thing all together to take it the next step. That smacks of being a petty temper-tantrum. > however, the destruction could also be symbolic of the > war going too far. > It's also a symbol of the Alphatian society's way of dealing with thing. I think it's time to relieve Alphaks of some of the blame for the destruction of Old Alphatia - sure, he's rotten scum, and he started the war. But it was the Air faction that made the choice, of their own accord (Alphaks was out of the picture at the time, having been deposed by the Fire dudes themselves) to throw the switch. . . Yes, Alphaks is scum, and should not be viewed as anything other than wicked. But what does that make the Air faction > think about it, if the alphers had assaulted glantri they > probably would have stayed. likewise there is the distinct > possibility that with large alphatian forces on brun, the > alpher expansions might have continued. they may have gone > for broke or they may have turned their attentions to the > hks who were allied with glantri. > Yes, that's a point I made in earlier messages: had Alphatia defeated Glantri, they would have stayed and occupied most of the KW as well (perhaps only stoping at the border of Sind) - However, as I alluded too, I think Eriadna's diplomacy was aimed at making sure the KW nations (Darokin included) wouldn't see the danger until it was too late. That, at least, is just the most generous interpretation I can put on it. And I'm going with my generous interpretations as part of "the new me" 8-)~ > > ironically...most of our disputes with each other seem to focus > on miscommunication and our own developed loyalties to our > respective favorite empires. i think we share a goodly number > of goals, but differ on how they are achieved. > That's true. I'd agree with that asessment. > the rest of the mml may not realize this but when James and > myself are working in agreement on common material we are > quite amiable towards each other and have been known to > craft some interesting tidbits. > Also true. It's just our disputes have made the War between Fire and Air look like a church social 8-)~. (just kidding with you). Hopefully we're over that now. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:57:52 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/5/00 6:23:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Alex wrote: > strange "order in the chaos". though alien to foriegners, > imo alphers see the social structure as perfectly normal > (even the nonspellcasters). afterall it has been in place > for 2000+ years. > With remarkably little change (almost stasis in fact) for a society that prides itself on creative inovation. . .>> well i think that the chaos is indicative of the progress or lack of progress. imo there has been change. given the size of alph and its longevity on mystara change tends to be dilluted. as for the creative inovation i think alot of that depends magical pursuit. socially changes are present. iirc old alph had the spellcasting majority as being more sympathetic to "handicapped" nonspellcasters. they sort of clamped down on mundaners, but have begun offering more personal power to mundaners off-continent. likewise, alphers have gone from Air Mage refugees, to more diverse schools. it may have taken another 2000 years but you would have probably seen the powerstructures eventually even out. > well...that is one of the problems with the Fire/Air war. > to us and the mainstrean mystarans it does seem trivial. > however, i tended to look at it as a final straw type event > between these two factions. > Notice that I didn't criticize the origins/reasons for the war (they can fight over whatever they'd like) - the end game, however: The Air faction has the war won. The Fire faction is sueing for peace (after deposing Alphaks). That's when they decide to reduce the world to gravel and move elsewhere. That's just a petty, destructive act that can't be justified within the context of the war between the factions (which is over by that point). Heck, if they want to slaughter the last remaining Fire followers, it wouldn't be as big a deal - sure, it would confirm them as not nice folks, but it's another thing all together to take it the next step. That smacks of being a petty temper-tantrum.>> the utter level of planetary destruction, revenge, and weakened state are cited as being a predominant causes for the egress. i'll agree that the air mages could have simply finished the fire mages off....and that avenue could find a degree of justification. regardless....the addage of "following the path of least resistance" works as good as any. however, i found it strange that the alphers abandoned the rest of their settled planets in that system. > however, the destruction could also be symbolic of the > war going too far. > It's also a symbol of the Alphatian society's way of dealing with thing. I think it's time to relieve Alphaks of some of the blame for the destruction of Old Alphatia - sure, he's rotten scum, and he started the war. But it was the Air faction that made the choice, of their own accord (Alphaks was out of the picture at the time, having been deposed by the Fire dudes themselves) to throw the switch. . . Yes, Alphaks is scum, and should not be viewed as anything other than wicked. But what does that make the Air faction>> well....it takes two to tango and from what i recall the fire factions struck first after alphaks screwup. regardless...we are talking about a civil war. you see populaces going a bit nuts with probably the most brutal fighting a nation sees is when its fighting itself. > think about it, if the alphers had assaulted glantri they > probably would have stayed. likewise there is the distinct > possibility that with large alphatian forces on brun, the > alpher expansions might have continued. they may have gone > for broke or they may have turned their attentions to the > hks who were allied with glantri. > Yes, that's a point I made in earlier messages: had Alphatia defeated Glantri, they would have stayed and occupied most of the KW as well (perhaps only stoping at the border of Sind) - However, as I alluded too, I think Eriadna's diplomacy was aimed at making sure the KW nations (Darokin included) wouldn't see the danger until it was too late. That, at least, is just the most generous interpretation I can put on it. And I'm going with my generous interpretations as part of "the new me" 8-)~>> to be honest, they'd have been stupid not to expand some sort of influence on brun after kicking glantri's teeth in. you'd at least want to consolidate the glantri regions with NW and its avenue to the sea. > the rest of the mml may not realize this but when James and > myself are working in agreement on common material we are > quite amiable towards each other and have been known to > craft some interesting tidbits. > Also true. It's just our disputes have made the War between Fire and Air look like a church social 8-)~. (just kidding with you). Hopefully we're over that now. >> actually i hope we are not. i find the debates interesting. also i tend to see them as great for idea spawning. i think the key is to keep it as debate and avoid arguing opinions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 02:10:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Greetings! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:56 Caroletti wrote: >> We've got our share of mad wizards, crazy elves, zzonga >> addicts, over-zealous clerics, evil politicians, vampires, werewolves, and >> all the rest of 'em just like in Mystara. >> >> Kit Navarro >> Glantrian Paparazzi >> fanavarro@pacific.net.ph > >I'm indigned: you didn't mention "honest and brave soldiers who fought in the >WotI war". And we fought also for Glantri! >[ Welcome Jeremy. With the hope you're NOT an Alphathiaphile...oh nevermind, >just joking...] > >Iulius Sergius Scaevola >Captain of the XXth Cohort >Port Lucinius, Thyatis You fought in the war?? I wonder if we ever met in combat then. I was a Captain in the Alphatian Air Navy myself (I eventually became Captain of the 'Skystalker' which I helped build all those years ago, hence my nickname). Still, I never got to participate in the invasion of Glantri, though :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 02:22:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:33:57 Carl Quaif wrote: >In a message dated 05/01/00 02:07:38 GMT Standard Time, >aosias@I-MANILA.COM.PH writes: > >> Aside from the obvious and probably astronomically priced Michael Whelan, >> what other (artists) would you choose to do the art for a Mystara 3E >> sourcebook? >> >> We'd need some guys good not only with fantasy figures, but the stunning >> backgrounds and architecture of the world... > >My choices? >1. Larry Elmore. >2. Larry Elmore. >3. LARRY ELMORE!!!!! > >Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming here...;-) > >Carl Q. Ha-ha. Well, can I dream too, then? ...and if we're dreaming, can I dream about Jeff Easley as well? Oh, how about Terry Dykstra? He did most of the art for the 'Princess Ark' series, and I kind of liked it (though NOBODY ranks higher than the two gentlemen mentioned above IMO). - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:50:18 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alexander Osias Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Breaking sideways in terms of artists, I wondered if comic book artists would work too. George Perez had a great run on Wonder Woman, intricately detailing the Greek architecture and costumes and weapons and armor... I'd love to see his take on both Thyatia and Alphatia. Frank Miller's take on Thermopylae in his book 300, as well as his fascination with Japanese art and culture would've been great for the internal art of a new Thyatian Empire sourcebook. The old Conan comic book artists would've been great to see for Karameikos and Glantri... ----- Original Message ----- : > : >My choices? : >1. Larry Elmore. : >2. Larry Elmore. : >3. LARRY ELMORE!!!!! : > : >Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming here...;-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:49:10 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or too bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . > > imo...Wrath was probably seen as a way to stir Mystara up as a > setting....probably more for the pending conversion to adnd. from post Wrath > sources and from K:KOA and G:KOM you can tell which kingdom were to get the > lion's share. i suspect that had official material continued there probably > would have never been a unified nace or that thyatis would have survived as > an imperial force. > As no doubt Herve would want me to remind everyone, the various Alphatian kingdoms which would become the core of NACE were reunified in Joshuan's Almanac. As far as whether or not Thyatis would have survived as an Imperial Force, or even at all, all one has to do is look at Bruce Heard's HK Timeline, 2nd Millenium. Add to that the obvious preferences of the person who was writing the Almanacs at the time and the conclusion is obvious. > > strangely enough....in my own campaign i was pretty even handed when it came > to alphatia and thyatis. most gaming unfolded on alphatia so that's where the > bulk of my attentions were. > Well, even with me: the first campaign I was involved in where both Empires played a role was one based on the Test of the Warlords & other Norwold modules; our party's goal was the pretty usual one - try to avoid entanglements with either Empire. My own character supported Ericall vs. Thyatis in the various battles (as well as advocating as much independence as possible from Alphatia). > it was with wrath that i tossed my lot with the > alphatian cause. imo thyatis was just acting out of character in the war and > that prejudiced me against them. > Well, as if Alphatia acted in character then or since. > alphatian people. however, those attentions with nace and hw-alphatia have > further alienated me from the thyatian theatre and pretty much tagged me as > being anti-thyatian. personally i see this as a bit of an exageration as just > because nace profits in some way...does not mean that it should be perceived > as a direct hindrence to thyatis. > Well, insofar as this stuff refers to exchanges in talks about the Almanac, I think it would be both unseemly and inappropriate to discuss it in this public forum. But I'll e-mail you my response to the above privately. > the alphers. also i'd like to add that both glantri and thyatis were both > threatened by Rad's pursuit of the magic draining radiance. > Yes, but none of the mortal participants (including the Alphatians) knew the whys and wherefores of the dispute over the Radiance. > > in wrath's content, "balance" and post wrath concerns went hand and hand. the > war and alliances seemed to favor preempted balancing of numbers for fighting > forces to level the discrepancies between glantri and alphatia. > Except that there is one big thing I didn't bring up that belies any claim that efforts were made to "balance" the sides - the Immortal meddling pre-war that undermined the effectiveness of Thyatis' armies. If it wasn't for that, Alphatia would have had much more trouble on the IoD, the war would have been much longer and more damaging, and the outcome uncertain. Far from "balancing" the sides, this heavily weighted things in the Alphatian's favor. > > i will agree with the ignore thyatis strategy. an assault through norwold > would be the best avenue. an alliance with the ethie is a no brainer. but > lets not forget the dwarves of rockhome. you also have the alphatian > descended peoples within glantri (excluding flaems) which were likewise > conveniently removed in wrath and in post wrath publications. > So were the neighboring Thyatian descended folk. > > it may appear complicated but it really isn't. one reason i went with > assembly pointas for the assault groups was to avoid the possible problems > with mass departures from various ports. i tried to demonstrate the > coordination problems by altering assembling times. > Ok. Well I guess I didn't explain my points very well. It's my opinion that they focus on too many targets in one go, even if the arrival times to each is different. > > i have already cited the reasons for nace's sucess on the IoD. i did leave > out another factor in both this thread and in the OpHydra messages for > spoiler reasons. magic played a heavy role in the widespread deployment and > the sense of surprise. > > > > That's another beef I have: because the Alphatians are magic heavy by > comparison with other nations, their enemies (Thyatis in particular) are > often portrayed as if they were magic poor. Again if this were the case one > wonders why Thyatis ever existed in the first place. But this is perhaps a > topic more suited for a thread of its own, so I'll leave it at that.>> > > have the thyatians been devoid of the use of magic in OpHydra? nope. thyatian > magic has been both inferred and specifically cited as being used. > It wasn't your portrayal of their capabilities (or lack thereof) vs. Minrothad that I was referring to (though the heavy emphasis on how vital the Alpher forces among the Thy troops is telling. . . .) - it was your portrayal of Thyatian impotence vs. the NACE forces: their "heavy use of magic" (see above) that comes as a complete shock to the Thyatians, bewildering them completely (this after 1,200 years of experience with Alphatian methods). But I'm trying to discipline myself to not get into this stuff again - I've already explained, multiple times, my beefs with this sort of thing on the list. Perhaps if you'd like we can start another thread on this. Still, I notice you sniped my examples of how Eusebius & the other Thyatians were portrayed as bumbling incompetents in the face of the NACE attack, and didn't deal with them. I'll take that as a tacit admission that those points were valid. > well i think that therein lies part of our differences in opinion. as i see > it (at least in the alternative OpHydra timeline). thyatis is focusing more > upon its mainland holdings. you have the pwas plots of independence movements > on the IoD. > Well, if that's the rationale for surrendering the IoD to NACE, then Eusebius should also sign over the Thyatian mainland to them, because Ann Dupuis also scripted an annual revolt there, too. So far the IoDers hadn't even resorted to violence to overthrow Thyatian rule. Eusebius should move to Minrothad, and sign a new treaty with NACE recognizing their rule over the Thyatian mainland. 8-)~ > > nace is more insular and not perceived as a threat as alphatia > had been. > Why is that? IMO, the reverse might be true - even in the big wars between Alphatia & Thyatis, the former never tried to wipe out the latter's civil population, which a noted NACE member attempted in the PWAs. . .Thyatis wouldn't perceive such people as threatening? Would view NACE access to the western half of the IoD as unremarkable? The possibility of a NACE naval base in West Portage, opposite the Thyatian mainland as nothing to be concerned about? Big territorial losses after so many other humiliations as not notable (remember, at the beginning of the OpHyd there is an explanation that includes remarks to the effect that Thyatis needs a big military victory to recover prestige/etc - the IoD events certainly redound to the contrary, and make Thyatis appear even more impotent and "castrated" than before - they march on Minrothad, blithely unaware of the possibility that {"insular, unthreatening"} NACE might try to take advantage of their destraction, and like a dull-witted moron they do indeed get sapped in the back of the head.) Also, NACE actions in this instance belie the notion that they are "insular" and should not be perceived as a threat. . .certainly, an aggressive military assault against all of Thyatis' assets within their reach cannot be portrayed as "unthreatening," except by people too dumb to learn from past experience. And remember, this thread is all about whether the Enemy should be portrayed as stupid or incompetent. . . . > > well....back when OpHydra was originally introduced political outcry was > often cited. personally i never saw it as a big deal. thyatis is an > imperialist empire and they have precedent at expansion. political outcry has > come into play and a lack of action has been explained in OpHydra. as for > diplomacy, i assure you that the fight for Minrothad as a whole will not end > with each island and guild being overrun. > All the more reason why a "straight up trade - Isle of Dawn for Trader's Island" is something only an idiot would do. See above re. portraying the enemy as dumb. there have already been some > foreshadowing events offered to support this; notice the standoff-ish > approach of several thyatian units. diplomacy is partly dependant upon the > taking of trader island. imo treaties are usually worth only the paper and > ink they are written upon. the show of force in taking trader island is a > definte part of later negotiations. > And the show of absolute weakness in losing IoD in less than a week will certainly be noted by the same people that would note the "show of force" in taking Trader's Island. Anyhow, I just don't buy it. No intention of being hostile about it, I just think that the explanation rings a bit hollow. Again, though, as I said in my previous post: 1) Plot drives events & strategy: wanting the IoD to fall to NACE quickly isn't bad in and of itself if that's what you want. BUT on the other hand since the plot/pre-determined outcome determines the course of events, then that meant scripting "the enemy" as bumbling and stupid. 2) Like I said, we all do it, probably more often than we'd care to admit. I'm just taking this as an opportunity to point that out, since you brought it up. While it's *preferable* to have intelligent, crafty, difficult to defeat enemies, it is not always possible to do that when you want events to take a certain course and direction. Making the enemy competent, throwing obstacles in the way of the success of your own plotline, etc. makes it that much harder to achieve overnight victories on a vast scale. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:53:02 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > actually i hope we are not. i find the debates interesting. also i tend to > see them as great for idea spawning. i think the key is to keep it as debate > and avoid arguing opinions. > Well then you should enjoy the message I just posted. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:03 PM 1/5/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Never knew Whelan was so highly priced, but it doesn't surprise me. His >covers for the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series by Tad Williams are the >finest book covers I've ever seen. I've got several DAW paperback editions of Michael Moorcock's Elric series, for which Whelan did the covers. Great stuff. I also love his covers for the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman (especially the cover of book 3: Crown of Shadows) >I don't remember Easley and Elmore much off-hand, though both names are >familiar. Both did a lot of art that was used in the OD&D stuff- Easley's best work (IMO) is the one which was used for the cover of CM2: Death's Ride (I've got a wall poster for it which is just awesome). Elmore's artwork can be found on the OD&D boxed sets (the revised basic and expert, as well as the companion and master's sets). He also did the covers for the Dragonlance trilogies (first and second). >What about the guy who used to do the Palladium stuff? Name eludes me ATM >- something Parkinson?? Keith Parkinson. He's really good, too. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:25:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:57:52 Alex Benson wrote: >In a message dated 1/5/00 6:23:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > ><< Alex wrote: > > strange "order in the chaos". though alien to foriegners, > > imo alphers see the social structure as perfectly normal > > (even the nonspellcasters). afterall it has been in place > > for 2000+ years. > > > With remarkably little change (almost stasis in fact) for a society that >prides itself on creative inovation. . .>> > >well i think that the chaos is indicative of the progress or lack of >progress. imo there has been change. given the size of alph and its longevity >on mystara change tends to be dilluted. as for the creative inovation i think >alot of that depends magical pursuit. socially changes are present. iirc old >alph had the spellcasting majority as being more sympathetic to "handicapped" >nonspellcasters. they sort of clamped down on mundaners, but have begun >offering more personal power to mundaners off-continent. likewise, alphers >have gone from Air Mage refugees, to more diverse schools. it may have taken >another 2000 years but you would have probably seen the powerstructures >eventually even out. And please notice that things WERE starting to change even before Wrath - people like Mylertendal and Terari (though mostly due to his personal history) had clearly abandonned Alphatia's imperialist tendencies, and they were just a couple of the more prominent people. Likely there were a number of more 'common' people who started to follow the more peaceful ways of the Immortals Razud, Koryis, and Alphatia. In fact, I see the involvement in the war of the Immortal Alphatia as a major reason why the empire itself got so involved with the war: If she, as a peaceful Immortal, actually *supported* the war, then surely there must have been something *VERY* wrong in Glantri according to the general populace. > > > well...that is one of the problems with the Fire/Air war. > > to us and the mainstrean mystarans it does seem trivial. > > however, i tended to look at it as a final straw type event > > between these two factions. > > > Notice that I didn't criticize the origins/reasons for the war (they can >fight over whatever they'd like) - the end game, however: The Air faction has >the war won. The Fire faction is sueing for peace (after deposing Alphaks). >That's when they decide to reduce the world to gravel and move elsewhere. >That's just a petty, destructive act that can't be justified within the >context of the war between the factions (which is over by that point). Heck, >if they want to slaughter the last remaining Fire followers, it wouldn't be >as big a deal - sure, it would confirm them as not nice folks, but it's >another thing all together to take it the next step. That smacks of being a >petty temper-tantrum.>> > >the utter level of planetary destruction, revenge, and weakened state are >cited as being a predominant causes for the egress. i'll agree that the air >mages could have simply finished the fire mages off....and that avenue could >find a degree of justification. regardless....the addage of "following the >path of least resistance" works as good as any. however, i found it strange >that the alphers abandoned the rest of their settled planets in that system. I agree with this. Actually I'm sort of glad that I've never had to address this IMC, because I'm not so sure that I'd use the 'Air faction destroys Old Alphatia' approach. I know that they did, but I just can't find a reason why they would. I can accept that they *were* probably 'spoiled children', but it still doesn't explain why they would utterly annihilate their own homeworld. It's one thing to say they were childish, but I don't think that even they would do this without reason. If forced, I would probably come up with a reason along the lines of the war between the factions having caused so much devastation to Old Alphatia that it was easier to settle somewhere else. Note that I'm not saying that they weren't childish (they were!), I just can't find a reason to explain those actions. (Not that anybody said so, but I wouldn't accept that they did this just because they were 'evil and childish'. There must have been more to it than that.) > > > however, the destruction could also be symbolic of the > > war going too far. > > > It's also a symbol of the Alphatian society's way of dealing with thing. I >think it's time to relieve Alphaks of some of the blame for the destruction >of Old Alphatia - sure, he's rotten scum, and he started the war. But it was >the Air faction that made the choice, of their own accord (Alphaks was out of >the picture at the time, having been deposed by the Fire dudes themselves) to >throw the switch. . . > Yes, Alphaks is scum, and should not be viewed as anything other than >wicked. But what does that make the Air faction>> Yes, the Air faction weren't a nice lot, or they wouldn't have done this. I just don't see their reasons for doing it. (some comments snipped) > > think about it, if the alphers had assaulted glantri they > > probably would have stayed. likewise there is the distinct > > possibility that with large alphatian forces on brun, the > > alpher expansions might have continued. they may have gone > > for broke or they may have turned their attentions to the > > hks who were allied with glantri. > > > Yes, that's a point I made in earlier messages: had Alphatia defeated >Glantri, they would have stayed and occupied most of the KW as well (perhaps >only stoping at the border of Sind) - However, as I alluded too, I think >Eriadna's diplomacy was aimed at making sure the KW nations (Darokin >included) wouldn't see the danger until it was too late. That, at least, is >just the most generous interpretation I can put on it. And I'm going with my >generous interpretations as part of "the new me" 8-)~>> > >to be honest, they'd have been stupid not to expand some sort of influence on >brun after kicking glantri's teeth in. you'd at least want to consolidate the >glantri regions with NW and its avenue to the sea. I don't really disagree with any of this. Even though I am (by my own admission) probably an 'Alphatiaphile' as James (in good humor, mind you) calls it, I fully admit that this is probably just what Alphatia would have done. However, I don't agree with the idea of an Alphatia/Ethengar alliance (I believe James proposed the idea), because I'm pretty sure the Ethengarians hate the Alphatians just as much as the Glantrians, I mean just look at how they treat their own wizards!! IMO they just seem to dislike the Glantrians more, because they have Glantri right next door and have to deal with them every day. But I believe that they would have liked Alphatians there even less, because Alphatia is a much greater force, and because of the imperialist tendencies Alex described. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:56:22 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > And please notice that things WERE starting to change even before Wrath > -people like Mylertendal and Terari (though mostly due to his personal > history) had clearly abandonned Alphatia's imperialist tendencies, and > they were just a couple of the more prominent people. > Yes, lack of Imperial ambition clearly explains their involvement in Norwold. . . . . . . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Daniel Boese Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or too bored to care? In-Reply-To: <200001060151.UAA01244@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: >As far as whether or not Thyatis would have survived as an Imperial Force, >or even at all, all one has to do is look at Bruce Heard's HK Timeline, 2nd >Millenium. I'd /like/ to look at this - Bruce Heard being, well, Bruce Heard, and all :) - but I've only recently resubscribed to the list, and don't know where to look... -- Daniel Boese, playing at being Mrikitat now and then... The Rrangoon species is available at http://www.phantomcross.org/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:08:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000105180235.007b9550@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I've got several DAW paperback editions of Michael Moorcock's Elric series, > for which Whelan did the covers. Great stuff. I also love his covers for > the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman (especially the cover of book 3: > Crown of Shadows) Sidenote - Whelan is the one artist whose art I would actually pay a good deal of money for. One of these days I'm going to have to order the book collection(s?) of his work, but buying a bigger piece would be great too. Absolutely the best fantasy artist I've seen. > >I don't remember Easley and Elmore much off-hand, though both names are > >familiar. > > Both did a lot of art that was used in the OD&D stuff- Easley's best work > (IMO) is the one which was used for the cover of CM2: Death's Ride (I've > got a wall poster for it which is just awesome). Hmm, don't have CM2. I'm sure I have some of his work considering the number of OD&D products I have. > Elmore's artwork can be found on the OD&D boxed sets (the revised basic and > expert, as well as the companion and master's sets). He also did the covers > for the Dragonlance trilogies (first and second). Okay stuff, but nothing outstanding. The DL chronicles covers were much better than the Legends ones IMO - the latter struck me as "bleah" but the former were nicely done. The reprint covers lose a bit, especially in the revelation of Kitiara, ruining one of the nice surprises. Did he do those too? - Mischa A newspaper consists of just the same number of words whether there be any news in it or not - Henry Fielding ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:06:31 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: The Enemy: dumb as a post, or too bored to care? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'd /like/ to look at this - Bruce Heard being, well, Bruce Heard, and > all :) - but I've only recently resubscribed to the list, and don't know > where to look... > It can all be found at Stan's site (http://dnd.starflung.com/) - of course, the stuff he did on the HKs isn't fully faithful to previous "canon", but it's all very interesting none the less. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:28:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:56:22 James Ruhland wrote (replying to me): >> >> And please notice that things WERE starting to change even before Wrath >> -people like Mylertendal and Terari (though mostly due to his personal >> history) had clearly abandonned Alphatia's imperialist tendencies, and >> they were just a couple of the more prominent people. >> >Yes, lack of Imperial ambition clearly explains their involvement in >Norwold. . . . . . . . Eh, what do you mean? If you're saying that the Alphatian settlements in Norwold is evidence to the contrary, then please remember two things: 1) How much interest the Alphatians actually gave those areas just before WotI. They even let Ericall claim them, even though Alphatian law clearly forbids it, since he's not a spellcaster. 2) How long ago they settled those areas. Now I know that it was not centuries before, but it was decades. Things CAN change in decades (just look at Russia and other eastern countries since 89 in the real world). Also, I did not say that this is the view of ALL Alphatians, but it is the view of some of them. I mentioned Mylertendal and Terari, but they are only two of the prominent people in Alphatia. However, I believe that they would have a growing number of supporters among both the general non-spellcasting population and the aristocrats (e.g., Stalker). And from the way the Alphatian history has evolved since, I would assume that the 'peace philosophy' has spread quite a bit. In fact, a bloody and costly war might spread it even faster, especially with the whole main continent sinking beneath the seas at the end of it. Is it really so unbelievable that the Alphatians would *FINALLY* see that war and conquest is not a good thing? If they didn't know already, I think the way the war ended (Alphatia sinking) would be a wake-up call that it would be pretty difficult to ignore. This hasn't changed the views of all Alphatians, of course, but it has changed the views of a number of them, most notably Eriadna obviously. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:15:28 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:57:52 EST Alex Benson writes: > the utter level of planetary destruction, revenge, and weakened > state are > cited as being a predominant causes for the egress. i'll agree that > the air > mages could have simply finished the fire mages off....and that > avenue could > find a degree of justification. regardless....the addage of > "following the > path of least resistance" works as good as any. however, i found it > strange > that the alphers abandoned the rest of their settled planets in that > system. I think from what I've read, all the planets in the system/plane were devestated by the war (Quite understandable when you have Air wizards draining away the atmospheres of Fire planets, and Fire wizards nuking Air planets.) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:16:56 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 1) How much interest the Alphatians actually gave those areas just before WotI. > They spent their time occupying and garrissoning the place, yes. > They even let Ericall > claim them, even though Alphatian law clearly forbids it, since he's not a spellcaster. > Um, you need to refresh your knowlege of Alphatian law on realm rulership. > 2) How long ago they settled those areas. Now I know that it was not centuries before, but it was > decades. Things CAN change in decades (just look at Russia and other eastern countries since 89 > in the real world). > And Alphatia, of course, had withdrawn from the areas they occupied by force. . . . . . > > Is it really so unbelievable that the Alphatians would *FINALLY* see that > war and conquest is not a good thing? > It depends; if you're one of the people who prefers the "Barneysque" Alphatia, then by all means (yes, all sorts of Renaissance - era societies decided that war and conquest was not a good thing. *rolls eyes. . .accross the table*). In which case I suppose I'll have to strike you off my "sane" list (but that's ok - consider the source. You prolly don't want to be considered sane by me, anyhow. 8-)~ Again, this gets back to what I was saying before: some folks favor scripting away all the negative aspects of Alphatia, expropriating the positive aspects of Thyatis (citizenship, openess to other cultures, the like), and making Alphatia the "good" Empire. That's ok if it's your cup of tea. Since you asked questions, I answered them, but as I said I really want to get away from this discussion (I'm sure many folks are sick of my opinions on this topic, especially the ones who's opinions differ from mine) so this will be my last post on the particular subject of the direction of development of the Empires by me for awhile. I'll just refer you to what I already said before on the topic of such "benevolization" of Alphatia. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:29:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:08 PM 1/5/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Hmm, don't have CM2. I'm sure I have some of his work considering the >number of OD&D products I have. He also did artwork that was used in other AD&D stuff (notably Forgotten Realms)- the cover of the Magister product for FR, as well as the covers of the Dark Elf trilogy of books come to mind. >Okay stuff, but nothing outstanding. The DL chronicles covers were much >better than the Legends ones IMO - the latter struck me as "bleah" but the >former were nicely done. The reprint covers lose a bit, especially in the >revelation of Kitiara, ruining one of the nice surprises. Did he do those >too? I'm of the opposite mind, actually. I really like his Raistlin and Caramon on the Legends covers, as opposed to the Chronicles. As far as the reprints, I don't recall for sure, but I seem to remember noticing that he did do them, and thinking that his artwork on those wasn't nearly as good as the original work. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:44:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emperor Porphyrogenitus/ Alex > the rest of the mml may not realize this but when James and > > myself are working in agreement on common material we are > > quite amiable towards each other and have been known to > > craft some interesting tidbits. > > > Also true. Oh, I have no problems believing you. BTW: I think that your points (too many for me to write about them briefly) simply show how many faults there were in the developing of history and politics in the Mystara world. The good TSR Mystara staff made a lot of logical flaws, especially on minor or undetailed events. A clear example is the destruction of Old Alphathia: if they had been told of the absurdity of the destruction made by Alphathians themselves, they would have surely changed the thing. Especially since Fire Followers and Air Followers first want to make peace, and then the AF leave for New Alphathia without problems, leaving a destroyed world behind and the FF rambling through the planes trying to find a place to settle in. It really doesn't make any sense. Even if you think that this act of insane destructiviness could be preserved in the Mystaran timeline, I suggest that we try to build a more precise timeline and political explanation of the Old Alphathia Civil War, and of the role Alphaks had in it. At least, I think that all logical flaws should be repaired by us here on the list, and this really seems BIG to me. BTW If you're interested in the post, I think we should change the subject line...maybe 'Civil War in Old Alphathia' could be good? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis 'And they're really mad...they even destroyed their old planet! Who could blame us for the hate we have for them? Probably they want to destroy also our planet!!' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:12:05 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Money on the Savage Coast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all... As I have been preparing my Savage Coast campaign, I noticed that when I downloaded the campaign book from the WoTC archives that many of the special characters are mixed up, which took me awhile to clean up. But I cannot figure out the substitutions for the Renardy coinage listed in Table 15.1. Does anyone know where I may find a correct table so I can get the correct names? IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:20:47 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/01/00 01:23:06 GMT Standard Time, alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > Ha-ha. Well, can I dream too, then? > > ...and if we're dreaming, can I dream about Jeff Easley as well? Oh, of course. He's a second (long time) fave. > Oh, how about Terry Dykstra? He did most of the art for the 'Princess Ark' > series, and I kind of liked it (though NOBODY ranks higher than the two > gentlemen mentioned above IMO). > Dykstra was the second artist to work on VotPA, right? Terrific work - but I DID get narked when Haldemar's appearance (hairstyle/length/colour, moustache - could have shaved it off, but still...- even build!!) were changed overnight! Remind me...was it Clyde Caldwell who drew the first dozen or so VotPA's? I don't have my Dragon CD-ROM on system yet... Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:20:52 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/01/00 03:08:34 GMT Standard Time, megst19+@PITT.EDU writes: > > Elmore's artwork can be found on the OD&D boxed sets (the revised basic and > > expert, as well as the companion and master's sets). He also did the > covers > > for the Dragonlance trilogies (first and second). > > Okay stuff, but nothing outstanding. The DL chronicles covers were much > better than the Legends ones IMO - the latter struck me as "bleah" but the > former were nicely done. The reprint covers lose a bit, especially in the > revelation of Kitiara, ruining one of the nice surprises. Did he do those > too? > > - Mischa If you want a good look at Elmore's stuff - including some (IMHO) beautiful pieces - point your browser at:- http://www.larryelmore.com/ Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:32:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:20:47 Carl Quaif wrote: >In a message dated 06/01/00 01:23:06 GMT Standard Time, >alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > >> Ha-ha. Well, can I dream too, then? >> >> ...and if we're dreaming, can I dream about Jeff Easley as well? > >Oh, of course. He's a second (long time) fave. > >> Oh, how about Terry Dykstra? He did most of the art for the 'Princess Ark' >> series, and I kind of liked it (though NOBODY ranks higher than the two >> gentlemen mentioned above IMO). >> > >Dykstra was the second artist to work on VotPA, right? Terrific work - but I >DID get narked when Haldemar's appearance (hairstyle/length/colour, moustache >- could have shaved it off, but still...- even build!!) were changed >overnight! Wait a moment, I'll have to check (goes of to search through piles of old issues of Dragon and lots of other stuff, stratches his head an bit, looks some more, casts Cantrip to help... It doesn't. Almost begins to cry in frustration and hits the top of the shelf (ouch!) thus revealing the much sought after material). Hmm, actually Dykstra the third artist (there was an illustration by Roger Raupp for the article in Dragon no. 155). I sort of agree with you on the issue of Haldemar's appearance - it did seem as if it was done a bit 'hasty' at times. The rest looked good, though, IMO. > >Remind me...was it Clyde Caldwell who drew the first dozen or so VotPA's? I >don't have my Dragon CD-ROM on system yet... Actually, no. The first artist on the 'Voyage of the Princess Ark' series was Jim Holloway, and now that I'm looking at it, his art is pretty good, too. Oh, and I just thought of some other artists: Denis Beauvais (not sure I spelled that correctly - sorry. He did the interior art for the Dragonlance chronicles IIRC, and I think he also did art for the 'Question' comic book by DC). Also some of the artists of the AD&D comic book: Tom Mandrake/Rick Magyar (e.g. AD&D comic #23) and especially... Jan Duursema/Rick Magyar - just check out the artwork in the AD&D comic book #24. It was outstanding IMO - I was actually a little sad after seeing that issue, because I knew that the art could only get worse after that (unless they got Elmore or Easley to do it)! Well, just a couple of names I thought of as long as we're dreaming, anyway :) - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:58:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:16:56 James Ruhland wrote: >> >> 1) How much interest the Alphatians actually gave those areas just before >WotI. >> >They spent their time occupying and garrissoning the place, yes. > >> They even let Ericall >> claim them, even though Alphatian law clearly forbids it, since he's not >a spellcaster. >> >Um, you need to refresh your knowlege of Alphatian law on realm rulership. I do?? So straithen me out. But I do believe that only spellcasters may be rulers in Alphatia (At least pre-WotI). In fact, IIRC this was given as the major reason why Eriadna was trying to remove Eruul Zaar from rulership in Helskir according to the Dawn of the Emperors boxed set - I may not have the set myself, but I read it extensively when I had the chance a couple of years ago (though I admit that you're probably right about the Air Faction destroying Old Alphatia, since I just don't remember). Of course, that brings up why Ericall could be King of Norwold, and it seems as if Eriadna was willing to, ahem, 'bend' the laws for her son, but not for Eruul Zaar. Am I mistaken ? > > >> 2) How long ago they settled those areas. Now I know that it was not >centuries before, but it was >> decades. Things CAN change in decades (just look at Russia and other >eastern countries since 89 >> in the real world). >> >And Alphatia, of course, had withdrawn from the areas they occupied by >force. . . . . . No, but there's a difference between saying "these new lands are not ours and we shouldn't invade them" and saying "these lands which we invaded some time ago really aren't ours, and we should remove ourselves from them". If you think that's bigotry, then I tend to agree, but from a historical point of view it sort of makes sense IMO. Sadly. >> >> Is it really so unbelievable that the Alphatians would *FINALLY* see that >> war and conquest is not a good thing? >> >It depends; if you're one of the people who prefers the "Barneysque" >Alphatia, then by all means (yes, all sorts of Renaissance - era societies >decided that war and conquest was not a good thing. *rolls eyes. . .accross >the table*). In which case I suppose I'll have to strike you off my "sane" >list (but that's ok - consider the source. You prolly don't want to be >considered sane by me, anyhow. 8-)~ > >Again, this gets back to what I was saying before: some folks favor >scripting away all the negative aspects of Alphatia, expropriating the >positive aspects of Thyatis (citizenship, openess to other cultures, the >like), and making Alphatia the "good" Empire. That's ok if it's your cup of >tea. Since you asked questions, I answered them, but as I said I really >want to get away from this discussion (I'm sure many folks are sick of my >opinions on this topic, especially the ones who's opinions differ from >mine) so this will be my last post on the particular subject of the >direction of development of the Empires by me for awhile. I'll just refer >you to what I already said before on the topic of such "benevolization" of >Alphatia. Oh I certainly admit that the Alphatians have their flaws - so do the Thyatians. However, the Alphatians also have some good qualities - as do the Thyatians. Those flaws and qualities are just not the same. But I don't think that there is any basis for saying, objectively, that either empire is 'better' or 'more right' or even 'more ethical' than the other. Oh well, if you don't want to go, that's fine. However, I do believe that this list is the proper forum for discussing such things as long as we don't start flaming each other, even if we never agree (which I doubt - discussions could still be enlightening, though, IMO). Perhaps we should just acknowledge the great work of people like Aaron Allston (where is he now BTW?) and Bruce Heard, who created and describe cultures and empires that managed to capture our imaginations to such an extent that we're still whining over which is the better empire a decade later :) I don't think we're supposed to agree, because I like the Alphatians while you like the Thyatians - it's something subjective that just appeals to us on some deep level. I think that's a bit of an achievement on the part of those two gentlemen. Do you disagree with that ? :) - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:49:51 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> They even let Ericall > >> claim them, even though Alphatian law clearly forbids it, since he's not > >a spellcaster. > >> > >Um, you need to refresh your knowlege of Alphatian law on realm rulership. > > I do?? So straithen me out. But I do believe that only spellcasters may be rulers in Alphatia > *sigh* - DotE, Player's Guide to Alphatia, "Classes of Society," p.17, under "King/Queen," 2nd paragraph "In Alphatia {the continent is clearly what is meant here - Porphy] and Bellissaria, all Kings and Queens *must* be magic-users, clerics, or elves. In the Isle of Dawn, Norwold, and other, more distant, territories, the empire allows rulers to be non-spellcasters." Note that the DotE DM's Sourcebook gives other examples of non-spellcasting Kings (The King of Ne'er-do-Well is a thief, the King of Qeodhar is a fighter, etc). > > (At least pre-WotI). In fact, IIRC this was given as the major reason why > Eriadna was trying to remove Eruul Zaar from rulership in Helskir according > to the Dawn of the Emperors boxed set > As far as I know the DotE DM's Sourcebook merely states that Eriadna wants to keep Zaar "in his place" since he is a non-spellcaster. Note also that there is a difference here - the Empire may *prefer* to have Spellcasters as rulers in all its dominions, but its laws *allow* non-spellcasters to govern distaff Provinces. A difference between a social stigma and legal rules: Eriadna may very well want to remove Zaar (especially since at the time of DotE, Helskir is a dominion of Thyatis; though that does go back and forth frequently) - legally he's allowed to rule, but he's still the "second string." Point is, Alphatia does allow some non-spellcasters to govern areas outside of Alphatia (continent) and Bellissaria. Anyhow, I did discipline myself this time; I'm only responding to the "rules related" part, and setting aside the rest of the discussion. No one wants to here what I have to say on this topic anymore, I'm sure. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:04:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive. Comments: To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:49:51 James Ruhland wrote (replying to me): (snip) >> I do?? So straithen me out. But I do believe that only spellcasters may >be rulers in Alphatia >> >*sigh* - DotE, Player's Guide to Alphatia, "Classes of Society," p.17, >under "King/Queen," 2nd paragraph "In Alphatia {the continent is clearly >what is meant here - Porphy] and Bellissaria, all Kings and Queens *must* >be magic-users, clerics, or elves. In the Isle of Dawn, Norwold, and other, >more distant, territories, the empire allows rulers to be >non-spellcasters." Note that the DotE DM's Sourcebook gives other examples >of non-spellcasting Kings (The King of Ne'er-do-Well is a thief, the King >of Qeodhar is a fighter, etc). Oh, okay. That explains why I got it wrong. Thanks for clearing it up. I thought that rule applied to the entire empire, not just the main continent. Sorry 'bout that. >> (At least pre-WotI). In fact, IIRC this was given as the major reason why >> Eriadna was trying to remove Eruul Zaar from rulership in Helskir >according >> to the Dawn of the Emperors boxed set >> >As far as I know the DotE DM's Sourcebook merely states that Eriadna wants >to keep Zaar "in his place" since he is a non-spellcaster. Note also that >there is a difference here - the Empire may *prefer* to have Spellcasters >as rulers in all its dominions, but its laws *allow* non-spellcasters to >govern distaff Provinces. A difference between a social stigma and legal >rules: Eriadna may very well want to remove Zaar (especially since at the >time of DotE, Helskir is a dominion of Thyatis; though that does go back >and forth frequently) - legally he's allowed to rule, but he's still the >"second string." > >Point is, Alphatia does allow some non-spellcasters to govern areas outside >of Alphatia (continent) and Bellissaria. OK then. Sure does explain why Eruul Zaar got, well, a bit angry at Eriadna (to put it mildly). But it still seriously questions Eriadna's motives, doesn't it? >Anyhow, I did discipline myself this time; I'm only responding to the >"rules related" part, and setting aside the rest of the discussion. No one >wants to here what I have to say on this topic anymore, I'm sure. Well, as long as we discuss in a civil manner (as I believe we are), you can count me among those who would prefer the opposite. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:33:18 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: Money on the Savage Coast Comments: To: ironwolf@ewa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IronWolf wrote: > Greetings all... > > As I have been preparing my Savage Coast campaign, I noticed that when I > downloaded the campaign book from the WoTC archives that many of the special > characters are mixed up, which took me awhile to clean up. But I cannot figure > out the substitutions for the Renardy coinage listed in Table 15.1. Does anyone > know where I may find a correct table so I can get the correct names? > > IronWolf > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. My best guess is the following for Renardy: copper pieces Sou silver pieces Ecu electrum pieces --- gold pieces Renar platinum pieces Roi Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:47:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Civil War in Old Alphatia (was ...of Ancient Empires: An Rambling Missive) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-06 04:44:37 Eastern Standard Time, Scarole@TIN.IT writes: << BTW: I think that your points (too many for me to write about them briefly) simply show how many faults there were in the developing of history and politics in the Mystara world. The good TSR Mystara staff made a lot of logical flaws, especially on minor or undetailed events. A clear example is the destruction of Old Alphathia: if they had been told of the absurdity of the destruction made by Alphathians themselves, they would have surely changed the thing. Especially since Fire Followers and Air Followers first want to make peace, and then the AF leave for New Alphathia without problems, leaving a destroyed world behind and the FF rambling through the planes trying to find a place to settle in. >> There is one error in the preceding that when corrected might clarify what is supposed to have happened: From the time they were outlawed by Alphaks until they pulverized their planet, there is no evidence that the Followers of Air ever wanted peace. The Followers of Flame made peace overtures to the Followers of Air, but the latter responded by blowing up the world. From that reaction, it would seem that only one side wanted peace, and then only because they were losing. <> I certainly would not object to a more precise timeline, but the overall scheme in DotE seems to make sense to me. After Alphaks declared that the Followers of Flame had won the debate, violence broke out and quickly led to all out war between the Followers of Air and the Followers of Flame. Towards the end of the war, with the Old Alphatian Empire mostly destroyed and a Pyrrhic victory within their grasp as they laid siege to the capital city, the Followers of Air decided to destroy their enemies by pulverizing their homeworld. The only problem with their plans -- the fact that they would be destroying their own world in the process -- was answered by the discovery of Mystara. From that point on nothing -- not even the overthrow of Alphaks or the peace offers of his former followers -- would deter them from their plans. Their actions, while grossly inexcusable, are quite understandable -- the Followers of Air felt that they had been tricked and betrayed so often by the their foes that they would settle for nothing less than a decisive victory and the utter annihilation of the Followers of Flame. >From that time on, the ruined plane of Old Alphatia would proclaim to any planar travelers the superiority of Air over all other elements. << BTW If you're interested in the post, I think we should change the subject line...maybe 'Civil War in Old Alphathia' could be good? >> Consider it done. By the way, I think I have an idea why most nations of the Known World were not properly fearful of Alphatia's intentions: geographical distance and the effective protection provided by Thyatis. Except for the Spike Assault and the War of Wrath, Alphatian troops never occupied any part of the mainland in recent memory -- and even these attacks were short lived and directed mainly at their traditional enemy Thyatis. For Darokin and most other nations of the Known World, this was a good thing -- Alphatia distracted Thyatis even as Thyatis held off Alphatia. Between wars, with Thyatis as more of a threat to mainland nations than Alphatia, those nations were quite willing to accept and spread propaganda about Thyatian treachery and Alphatian benevolence. However, if Thyatis had completely collapsed at any point, the nations of what would later become the WDL would have had real cause for concern as Alphatia moved in, gobbled up the remains of the Thyatian Empire, and then began picking away at the rest of the Known World. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:11:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia (was ...of Ancient Empires:An RamblingMissive) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott ha scritto: From the time they were outlawed by Alphaks until they pulverized their planet, there is no evidence that the > Followers of Air ever wanted peace. The Followers of Flame made peace > overtures to the Followers of Air, but the latter responded by blowing up > the world. From that reaction, it would seem that only one side wanted > peace, and then only because they were losing. > > < destructiviness could be preserved in the Mystaran timeline, I suggest that > we try to build a more precise timeline and political explanation of the Old > Alphathia Civil War, and of the role Alphaks had in it. At least, I think > that all logical flaws should be repaired by us here on the list, and this > really seems BIG to me.>> > > I certainly would not object to a more precise timeline, but the overall > scheme in DotE seems to make sense to me. After Alphaks declared > that the Followers of Flame had won the debate, violence broke out > and quickly led to all out war between the Followers of Air and the > Followers of Flame. Towards the end of the war, with the Old Alphatian > Empire mostly destroyed and a Pyrrhic victory within their grasp as they > laid siege to the capital city, the Followers of Air decided to destroy > their enemies by pulverizing their homeworld. The only problem with > their plans -- the fact that they would be destroying their own world in > the process -- was answered by the discovery of Mystara. From that > point on nothing -- not even the overthrow of Alphaks or the peace > offers of his former followers -- would deter them from their plans. Yes, yes, I know, but do you think that the magic unleashed to destroy a PLANET would have been less exhausting than the magic used to restore remnants of it? And given the fact Followers of Flame were losing, they could have dealt with them in different ways...I see your point, in this way it is more reasonable, but still WHY destroy a planet? I think that a simple change that could save the timeline would be that they throwed with some powerful magic most of the Fire Followers in an outer dimension, and then left a ruined planet behind-without destroying it. The few Fire Followers that survived, then, tried to reach other planes, but just a very small group managed to survive and reach Glantri. The stranded FF cast in the dimensions by the AF at the end of the world have probably been destroyed, and maybe among them was our Alphaks, that half-crazy for the awful outer dimensional experiences, although surviving decided to serve Entropy. In Alphathia, in the following centuries, the concept of a 'destroyed' world in the sense of ruined, barren and unhospitable due to the war was re-enterpreted as really destroyed, exploded, crushed, not existing anymore. What do you think about that? > > > Their actions, while grossly inexcusable, are quite understandable -- > the Followers of Air felt that they had been tricked and betrayed so > often by the their foes that they would settle for nothing less than a > decisive victory and the utter annihilation of the Followers of Flame. > >From that time on, the ruined plane of Old Alphatia would proclaim to > any planar travelers the superiority of Air over all other elements. > Hmmm, that could be right too. Well, I really don't know...but I'm sure that Allson didn't think of that when he developed DoTE. He simply wanted Old Alphathia destroyed and never thought about the problem this action implied. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:48:39 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: map in the making... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i am currently working on the map you asked me for.But i am facing pb of conversion because i would like to have the islands north of the alphatian sea and they have never been made before by TSR.They only appear on the hollow world planetary map . Do your underocean reaches them? Anyway i will try to make you a set of hax based on those of PC3 to help you out in mapping the all Alphatian sea depth. if you can answer me fast. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:49:30 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: what map do you want next? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i forgot to tell you i was first working on a 72 miles per hex scale.I'll zoom in later. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:02:07 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian & Thyatian Distinctiveness. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stalker wrote: > > Well, as long as we discuss in a civil manner (as I believe we are), you > can count me among those who would prefer the opposite. > Ok. Reminds me of a Bugs Bunny quote though (everything either reminds me of a cartoon, or WKRP, or GwtW quote, but I usually keep my stinkiness to myself: "remember, doc - you asked for it" 8-) > > No, but there's a difference between saying "these new lands are not ours > and we shouldn't invade them" and saying "these lands which we invaded > some time ago really aren't ours, and we should remove ourselves from them". > If you think that's bigotry, then I tend to agree, but from a historical point of view > it sort of makes sense IMO. Sadly. > 1) No, not bigotry as such, just life in the pond. If we tried to make our gaming countries (and thus our gaming worlds) reflect our modern version of how nations & people Ought to behave, we have to admit we'd have much less fun. In earlier posts I alluded to (but I guess didn't directly say) that I think this is what some folks, both some of the TSR designers & some of the otherwise fine folk who have kept Alphatia "alive " since the cancelation of the Mystara line have done: they've designed stuff to suit their own tastes, but to me it's made the place a lot less interesting, a lot less multi-faceted (see below), and more annoying than fun. It's as if Hillary & Tipper decided to child-proof it. (ok, ok - that last phrase was going to far, I am being extreme there to make the point. Alphatia isn't *that* bad. . .but it's getting close, IMO). > > Oh I certainly admit that the Alphatians have their flaws - so do the Thyatians. However, the Alphatians also have some good qualities - as do the Thyatians. Those flaws and qualities are just not the same. But I don't think that there is any basis for saying, objectively, that either empire is 'better' or 'more right' or even 'more ethical' than the other. > Right. 1) On a couple of occassions I've refered to my opinion here being a matter of my aesthetic tastes. Obviously some (many) disagree with me. They are entitled to their views, however abhorent and heretical those may be (just joking). 2) Ok, time for the Socratic style . What are the good qualities of the Alphatians, as presented in DotE? What are their flaws? What about the Thyatians - list their good qualities and their flaws. Now take the list you made: mark off the good qualities of the Thyatians which began to become Alphatian traits in the PWAs & JA (start with the Jafili incident, end with the "citizenship" granted to {now former} Jennite slaves & the planned democratization of that area.) Don't forget the high profile Broderick had throughout. Now take the list of Alphatian & Thyatian flaws, and put a check mark next to them each time they are highlighted in the PWAs & JA (gosh, lots and lots of checkmarks next to the Thyatian flaws, right? Few next to the Alphatian flaws - and those, mostly having to do with the revolts in Esterhold - only serve to allow for the development of new virtues, checked off above. Some of the others have to do with Zandor - a plot device character used to re-unite the surviving Alph nations, after which he is bundled off stage & the progressive "New Alphatian Empire", the core of what would become NACE, is born). Do a similar thing for the Alph & Thy virtues. Wow, here it is reversed - a lot of checkmarks next to Alph virtues, few cases where the positive traits of Thyatis were highlighted. Now do the same for your own preferences. Note how what you and others advocate - a support for the new, enlightened Alphatian Empire, makes them a *lot* more positive (casting the Thyatian in the role of the sinister but impotent opponent, aka "Tomato Can"), often by adopting some of the positive traits of the Thyatian Empire and making them Alphatian traits, and downplaying them as Thyatian attributes. Remember, you started off with the statement (true in the DotE description) that each had their flaws and merits, and that those were different. The latter *was* a key point. That can no longer be said, IMO - as the Empires have been described over time in official and net materiel (with the noted exception of a volume of Thyatian materiel produced by one loudmouthed individual. . . .), one Empire has been portrayed positively and the other negatively, almost exclusively (see also Bruce Heard's revisionist HK Timeline - DotE says that the Hattian revolt was Thantos-inspired, the Storm Soldiers are obviously based on the "bad" German model, the Nazi SS - something Jamuga has rightly been upset about in the past; and Vanya's faith is a faith of conquerors. In BH's HK timeline, Thantos doesn't show up till later, the Hattian revolt is a "liberation" movement against the nasty and wicked Thyatians, the SS is transformed into the Hattian version of the French Resistance, and Vanya's faith spreads as some sort of "liberation theology"). It is my opinion that if we are going to have one Empire that is a shining example of everything that is pure and noble (the HW portion nobly defending the hollow worlders against the likes of the HKs, the surface portion led by the Paladin-like Broderick), and one that represents everything nasty and wicked, then we should go all the way. I'll leave it up to the list as a whole. Which announces something I've intended to announce for awhile. People have now had time to read and ponder the events in the Almanac. In Thyatis, the year ends with the capital under siege - two factions fighting for control. Cast your vote: "Once in every man and nation's life/comes the moment to decide/in the strife between truth and falsehood/for the good or evil side." Vote for the "rebels" (led by Oesterhaus et al) to win if you want to see a dark and evil Thyatis, vote for the "loyalists" to win if you'd prefer to see a more benign (but hopefully balanced - with bad and good qualities, as originally intended) Thyatis prevail. It's Tinkerbell time. Send any votes directly to me (cc them to Herve if you want - though he has nothing to do with this Caucus idea, its all mine), not to the list as a whole. Voting will be concluded at the end of the month or on the day of the Iowa Caucuses, depending on my whim and how many votes seem to still be coming in. In true Thyatian style, let the common Mystara-fan have a say in how Thyatis will be governed and portrayed. (Note, though: if Thantos wins, the surrounding area will likely not escape the effects. . . .just IMO, though. I have no real say on what happens in those nations, so you might get your wish that the damage is "localized" to Thyatis only.) One vote per suplicant, please. > of people like Aaron Allston (where is he now BTW?) > He still designs RPG stuff, for other games and the like, periodically. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:05:44 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hmmm, that could be right too. Well, I really don't know...but I'm sure that > Allson didn't think of that when he developed DoTE. He simply wanted Old > Alphathia destroyed and never thought about the problem this action implied. > Well, there was a reason for that: M1: Into the Maelstorm already had been published, describing a "shattered" Old Alphatia. Allston just fit the Timeline into that - he was presented with a "destroyed" Old Alphatia and left to decide how it happened. Btw, if we're going to "pretty up" the Alphatian timeline, why be pikers about it and limit ourselves to only the events surrounding the Civil War? We can design a timeline more appropriate for the Alphatia that has emerged and people's current images of it. . . . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Site update Hey all, Just a friendly little note to say my geocities site has been updated once again: The Riders of the Winds The Blessed Ones - updated (anyone who has a copy on their own sites , take note) and another installment of my campaign journal (yeah, I know, it's been a while, but I'm catching up) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:38:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia Comments: To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Btw, if we're going to "pretty up" the Alphatian timeline, why be pikers > about it and limit ourselves to only the events surrounding the Civil War? > We can design a timeline more appropriate for the Alphatia that has emerged > and people's current images of it. . . . . Heh heh, I think I know what you'd like to say. You mean: 'Why can't we be happy with the fact that those spoiled Alphathian childs destroyed their Home world?' I'm perfectly happy with that, and I don't like Alphathia (and actually can't stand many aspects of its new good hearted nature), but I simply thought that even THAT sort of things is too much, also for Alphathians. But anyway, maybe you're right. I think I was too fast in drawing conclusions, and didn't think enough on the issue- it's just that a simple Thyatian soldier has its problems in understandig how stupid those Alphathians were. Maybe ol' Allston was right...he kept things quite balanced. Alphathia had their self destruction, and Thyatis had the treachery of its first emperor (I don't remember the name now...AAARGH!!!). If we had to erase the destruction of Alphathia we should on the other hand erase Thyatian treachery...Oh my Solarios! I was really struck by some Alphathian spell [I'm sure, it had to be the Stalker!!], otherwise I can't understand how I could have thought such things!!! [Ok, it's just a little exaggerated way to tell all of the persons involved in the discussion that I disagree with what I thought and suggested. Alphathia HAS been destroyed by Alphathians.] Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:55:07 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/01/00 00:32:29 GMT Standard Time, alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > >Dykstra was the second artist to work on VotPA, right? Terrific work - but I > >DID get narked when Haldemar's appearance (hairstyle/length/colour, > moustache > >- could have shaved it off, but still...- even build!!) were changed > >overnight! > > Wait a moment, I'll have to check (goes of to search through piles of old > issues of Dragon and lots of other stuff, stratches his head an bit, looks > some more, casts Cantrip to help... It doesn't. Almost begins to cry in > frustration and hits the top of the shelf (ouch!) thus revealing the much > sought after material). :-)) - sounds a lot like my collection..... > Hmm, actually Dykstra the third artist (there was an illustration by Roger > Raupp for the article in Dragon no. 155). Oh, that's right. I forgot about him. Well spotted, that man! > I sort of agree with you on the issue of Haldemar's appearance - it did seem > as if it was done a bit 'hasty' at times. The rest looked good, though, IMO. Especially Lady Abovombe....YUM! ;-) > >Remind me...was it Clyde Caldwell who drew the first dozen or so VotPA's? I > >don't have my Dragon CD-ROM on system yet... > > Actually, no. The first artist on the 'Voyage of the Princess Ark' series > was Jim Holloway, and now that I'm looking at it, his art is pretty good, too. THAT'S it! I knew i had the name wrong. Jim Holloway seemed a strange choice to me, at first, since he is/was TSR's "funny article artist" (remember "Fluffy Goes to Heck" in an early Dragon? :-), but I missed him when he was gone. Favourite Holloway VotPA piccy was Haldemar sprawled over Abovombe, both staring up at a dagger(?) sticking out of the wall, just where Abovombe had been standing a moment before - both with shocked expressions on their faces. Classic. Has anybody had those two "get it together", yet? It's about time....;-) > Oh, and I just thought of some other artists: > > Denis Beauvais (not sure I spelled that correctly - sorry. He did the > interior art for the Dragonlance chronicles IIRC, and I think he also did art > for the 'Question' comic book by DC). Ooh, yes, I like him (spelling correct, AFAIK, BTW. ;-) > Also some of the artists of the AD&D comic book: > > Tom Mandrake/Rick Magyar (e.g. AD&D comic #23) > > and especially... > > Jan Duursema/Rick Magyar - just check out the artwork in the AD&D comic book > #24. It was outstanding IMO - I was actually a little sad after seeing that > issue, because I knew that the art could only get worse after that (unless > they got Elmore or Easley to do it)! It's like practically any DC book after George Perez leaves it...:-( > Well, just a couple of names I thought of as long as we're dreaming, anyway : ) Oh, and not forgetting Rags Morales! :-) Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:07:50 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara Carl wrote: >"Fluffy Goes to Heck" in an early Dragon? :-), but I missed him when he was >gone. Favourite Holloway VotPA piccy was Haldemar sprawled over Abovombe, >both staring up at a dagger(?) sticking out of the wall, just where Abovombe >had been standing a moment before - both with shocked expressions on their >faces. Classic. Has anybody had those two "get it together", yet? It's about >time....;-) Ah, and we can't forget Jim Holloway in his (IMO) best incarnation, as the chief illustrator for the Paranoia RPG*! Geoff *except for the 5th edition of the game; loyal Citizens play with the 2nd edition - Praise The Computer!! -----> Happines Is Mandatory ... Are You Happy, Citizen? <----- -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:13:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt II >> Heh heh, I think I know what you'd like to say. You mean: 'Why can't we be happy with the fact that those spoiled Alphathian childs destroyed their Home world?'<< Ahh, but what i'd like to say and what I did say might be two very different things. In any case, such a project might be both fun, and useful to some. So, behold: a new history for a new Alphatia!
"The True History of our beloved empire," the graybeard began, "is not always a happy one. Accompanying our great achievements is a chronicle of disaster, treachery, and struggles for our power inflicted upon our noble people by uncomprehending outsiders"
Dawn of the Alphatians
Millennia Ago, on a far-distant world called Alphatia, the original Alphatians (a noble race) achieved an unparalleled level of civilization and magical comprehention on account of their unapproachable virtue. The power they wielded as a race was greater than that of the Immortals. Manipulation of magic fed them, clothed them, and sheltered them.
These Alphatians looked different from the everyday Alphatians of today. You see their likeness in what we call "pure" Alphatians: Pale of skin, black of hair, light of eye, and refined in every way.
Almost every representative of the race wielded magic. The rest, those few children born without the gift of magic, were educated to use their gifts at the utmost level of achievement, and as today there was no social stigma upon them.
The Alphatians built an empire on their world, by invitation of the other race that lived there. That race was that of the Cypris, humans with copper skin and brown or red hair. The Alphatians governed the empire - while the Cypri performed valuable social tasks and were responsible for artistic and cultural developments. Eventually the two races blended into one uniquely inspiring civilization. The Alphatians who exhibit traits of the original pale-skinned race are now few and far-between.
The combined Cypri-Alphatians enobled their world, and then extended their civilization to other worlds near them. Violent conquest was never required, though the Alphatians developed powerful methods for dealing with attacks against them. The Alphatians were superior to every other race, and thus it was (and is) their right to rule.
Not needing to work, except for occasional applications of magic, the Alphatians became great scholars and lived a life of liesurely contemplation. Great proportions of the population enjoyed zzonga-fruit, though none abused this intoxicant. Distant colonies were allowed their liberty whenever they felt they were ready for self-rule.
As the Alphatians engaged in their academic pursuits, disagreements emerged, though they only rarely decended into arguments, and then only of the most elivated and courteous sort. Different phylosophies were developed, accepted by many and tolerated in the interest of multicultural diversity by everyone. Between the great families and churches of the Alphatians, peaceful dialogue and even frank and open exchanges of views became common, always discussed on the most solem of pretexts.

The Time of Air and Fire

Just over 2,000 years ago, Year -200 (Thyatians would say BC 1200) two schools of magic began an especially spirited debate which would one day spell the ruin of this utopian society.
The Most Righteous College of Aerial Splendor (today called the Followers of Air) was a sect devoted to the studies of the Plane of Air and aerial magic. The Air Wizards accomplished miraculous feats with their air magic--such as summoning a great bubble of breathable air to surround the Alphatians' solar system, and doing other things to contribute to the general welfare.
The Universal Truth of Fiery Dominion, a rival sect (today called the Followers of Flame), held that the Plane of Fire was a source of power and wisdom alongside that of Air (and indeed the other eliments), though no Alphatian held any belief to be superior to any other belief. The Followers of Flame were energetic debaters.
The two sects held numerous polite discussions and friendly debates. These became popular public spectacles; the Alphatians had long enjoyed phylosophical discourse as a diversion from their diligent maintinance of their Empire. New students and scholars were recruited by the thousands to participate in dialogues throughout the Empire.
A neutral scholar, trying to add spice to the debate, asked a provocatve question and invited scholars of both sects to put forward essays arguing the merits of both sides of his query.
The leading debaters of both sects eagerly embraced this argument and spent an incredible amount of time and energy writing their debates. The neutral judge took the best of their essays, assembled them, and published them. A great amount of work and genius had been displayed by both sides, and all agreed that it had been informative and inspiring for all who participated.

Alphaks' Folly

Within this, however, one man destroyed Alphatian civilization with just a stroke of a pen. Alphaks I was the emperor of the Alphatians. Highly intelligent, immensly powerful, prone to brilliant insights and childish tantrums, he had sat on the throne of Alphatia during all the time this debate had been going on, lending support to neither side, for he was wise enough to know that his involvement might lead to the argument crossing the line into real divisiveness. Considering that he, himself, was a follower of Fire, he acted in a intelligent and disciplined fashion, as was typical of all Alphatians. But then he fell into madness.
But now, with the debate limited to the fields of academia (and nearing completion), he thought he'd put in his own opinion. He read the book of essays with as much interest and amusement as any other Alphatian, and then, with the powers given to the Alphatian emperor, signed into law a proclamation that the Universal Truth of Fiery Dominion, with their superior arguments, had won the debate, now and for all time.
The result on the part of the Air college was shock. Radical elements of that sect went on a rampage through the Fire sect's university grounds, and summoned mighty winds to blow buildings away. Calmer members of the Air sect tried to hold back their more impetuous bretheren, but after all it was only meant as a fraternal prank. Alphaks, irritated, then went too far, signing another proclamation--outlawing the Air sect. Meanwhile, followers of the Fire sect made prankish reprisals on the Air magicians; making their deeds public, to the cheers of the followers, and Alphaks did not punish them.

The Year of the Scouring

All had remained good humored until Alphaks prodded the Followers of Fire to greater extremes. More reprisals followed, from both sects, and the usually pacifistic Alphatians for once lost their cool. The Fire followers, led by Alphaks, fought the Air followers in a war so terrible that it has gone down in legend as apocalypse. At first the Air followers refused to sully their hands in the blood of their countrymen, but eventually they were forced to defend themselves. The war ravaged the world, destroyed everything that was beautiful, killed the best of all the noble families, scoured the empire's satellite worlds. Millions perished.
And Alphaks, to his eternal regret, discovered which was the more powerful of the two sects--that of Air. More experienced, not as prone to fiery passions and fatal mistakes, the Air Wizards gradually pushed back the attacking Fire Wizards, destroying their forces, battering them back to the citadels of Alphatia's capital.
Knowing that Alphaks had ruined the world, the Air Wizards sought out a way to restore its beauty. During their researches they found another world, and were set to use it as a model, though only (they planned) with the permission of its native inhabitants.
Meanwhile, the Fire Wizards began to recover their temper, and made overtures of peace. They rose against the one man who was solely and exclusively responsible for what had happened, Alphaks, banished him, and made overtures of peace to the Air Wizards. The Air Wizards naturally accepted these peace proposals, and the two factions agreed to work together to restore their world to its beauty. But Alphaks was vengeful--he sought and became an Immortal, and used his power into a spell of destruction (where before the war Alphatians had only used constructive magics), which covered the whole world for years, smashing it into numberless pieces. Most of the followers of Fire were slain, but the Air Wizards, held aloft by the sheer force of their noble dignity, were spared, but forced to flee into exile to the world they had discovered.

Landfall, and Other Survivals

These Alphatians came to this new world, and that event is called Landfall--the Alphatian calendar is dated from Landfall, which is Year 0. The Alphatians slowly began to make this world fit for living.
Though it was not known at the time, some of the Fire Wizards survived, too. Though the Alphatians had once been more powerful than the Immortals, they still remained more ethical, and thus were able to get the Immortals to serve them. The Immortals intervened on their behalf and insured that they would not perish, though they made the Followers of Fire wander the outer planes until all who were alive at the time of the War of Air and Fire had perished or left their own kind.
Since so many of these survivors were long-lived wizards, this took a long, long time. It was 1,400 years before the survivors from Alphaks' time had died or departed, and their descendents, who called themselves the Flaems, were pure of Alphaks' taint. Because the Alphatians are kind-hearted and friendly towards their neighbors, no one was expelled from the group against his will, and all ended up enjoying their time wandering the planes.

The New Alphatian Empire

While the surviving Followers of Fire were enjoying their travels through the Outer Plains, the Followers of Air were settling on this world, on a continent which most reminded them of their former world. The Alphatians concluded that this planet had shifted the axis of its rotation no more than two thousand years before, and within the last two or three hundred years the ice had receded from this fair island--and no new human settlements of any consiquence had been established here in the meantine (oh, there were some human settlements--the inhabitants of which quickly invited the Alphatians to rule over them, see below).
But the Alphatians were not as mighty on this world as they had been on their own. So many of their great artifacts had been used up, and so many of their great wizards had perished during the war that magical knowledge was not what it once had been; also, the very nature of magic was different, and mages found that they had to relearn their concepts of magic and its use.
That's not to say that they weren't sufficiently excellent enough to be acknowleged as masters of their world. They effortlessly dominated their island, which the native inhabitants insisted they call Alphatia, dispite the Alphatian's humble nature making this seem too presumptuous. They began building cities, and were accepted as the superiors over other human realms, dispite their reluctance.
But their lack of magical power (compared to their strength on theor own world) forced them to make certain concessions, even though they disliked them. Magic could no longer feed a nation, so agriculture became important; now, farmers raised crops and were aided by, instead of supplanted by, the wizards. Magic was no longer sufficient to raise every brick of every city; humans built the city walls and most of the buildings, and magic raised only the palaces and towers of the wizards themselves. Magic alone couldn't bring the Alphatians all the riches they wanted. . .so other peoples volenteered to send them all the wealth they could produce, even though the Alphatians found this behavior strange. Indeed, when the Alphatians arrived, the natives acknowleged their cultural, philosophical, moral, and magical superiority. They insisted that the Alphatians accept them as their slaves. Though this concept was alien to the Alphatian mindset, and once they understood what the nat! ! ives meant by it they resisted it, they thought it would be inhospitable (since the Alphatians were guests on this world) to refuse the offer - a form of cultural imperialism to not accept. The natives drew up a system, which is Alphatia's social hierarchy to this day, upon which relations between the Alphatian wizards and their slaves would be based. The Alphatians adopted this, even though they found it harsh. However, dispite the nature of this arangement, Alphatians are so caring and concentious that the slaves of Alphatia lead lives of plenty - waited on hand and foot, spells cast on their behalf by doting masters, clothed in silk and fed of wine and honey. None lack for anything, so greatful are their "masters." Part II, Alphatian History (Revised) up to 2000 AY/1000 AC to follow later. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:06:49 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:13:14 -0500 Emperor Porphyrogenitus writes: > >> Heh heh, I think I know what you'd like to say. You mean: 'Why > can't we be happy with the fact that those spoiled Alphathian childs > destroyed their Home world?'<< > > Ahh, but what i'd like to say and what I did say might be two very > different things. > > In any case, such a project might be both fun, and useful to some. > > So, behold: a new history for a new Alphatia! [snippity-snip] That is one of the most amusing things I've read in a long time... But when/if you post part two, please don't use html... it makes it harder to read for those of us who don't use HTML e-mail programs. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:11:03 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > That is one of the most amusing things I've read in a long time... > > But when/if you post part two, > Actually, that *was* Part II. Next comes Part III (the period covering AY 1 - AY 2000). Part I comes last (covering the period from AY 2000 - present) - so that everything is mislabled out of order, in appropriately chaotic fashion (actually, I made a mistake and labled the 1st one Pt II in error, but why not make use of the mistake?) > please don't use html... it makes it > harder to read for those of us who don't use HTML e-mail programs. > Ok, will do. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:43:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:38:05 Caroletti wrote: >Maybe ol' Allston was >right...he kept things quite balanced. Alphathia had their self destruction, >and Thyatis had the treachery of its first emperor (I don't remember the name >now...AAARGH!!!). You mean... Zendrolion ? That treacherous... It's one thing that Lucinius used his (Alphatian BTW) magical skills to free Thyatis, but after that he is promptly stabbed in the back by his heroic warrior ally. Now, there's an example of an empire that's off to a good start. Hmmm, sure makes one wonder why people are suspicious of Thyatians, doesn't it ? :) > If we had to erase the destruction of >Alphathia we should on >the other hand erase Thyatian treachery...Oh my Solarios! I was really struck >by some Alphathian spell [I'm sure, it had to be the Stalker!!], otherwise I >can't understand how I could have thought such things!!! A HA HA!! My powers are indeed vast and mighty! All must surely fear my wrath. Let that be a lesson to Thyatians and Thyatis-lovers alike :) >[Ok, it's just a little exaggerated way to tell all of the persons involved in >the discussion that I disagree with what I thought and suggested. Alphathia HAS >been destroyed by Alphathians.] Well... This may surprise you, but I don't disagree (once again I baffle the Thyatian - YES!!). The problem is that we're still not sure how this was done - did the Air Factions destroy Old Alphatia willfully? I do see David Knott's point, but I still agree with your original statement that destroying a planet is a bit much - but, hey, that just me! I'm sure to hear from James Ruhland if I suggest that the war somehow triggered a chain-reaction that eventually destroyed Old Alphatia or made it uninhabitable, so I won't :) - Stalker PS: Note to James Ruhland - You can take the fact that I didn't answer your post specifically as a sign that I agree with just about everything you said - in the end it comes down to personal taste, since I like Alphatia and you don't (as much as me, anyway). Still, I think that there was a tiny basis in DotE for the events that have transpired since WotI, but I don't have the set, so I could be wrong, though I see the 'peace' movement of people like Mylertendal as evidence for this. However, it's still a matter of taste. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:57:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Ideal Artists for Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:55:07 Carl Quaif wrote: >In a message dated 07/01/00 00:32:29 GMT Standard Time, >alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes: > (lots snipped) >> Jan Duursema/Rick Magyar - just check out the artwork in the AD&D comic >book >> #24. It was outstanding IMO - I was actually a little sad after seeing that >> issue, because I knew that the art could only get worse after that (unless >> they got Elmore or Easley to do it)! > >It's like practically any DC book after George Perez leaves it...:-( Well, in all fairness, those artists DID remain with the book until the license ended and the comic book was then cancelled with no. 36 :( (what I meant to say by my original statement was the no. 24 was so well done that they couldn't improve on that - in fact the art in that issue made me bring back Critical Hits IMC, because they managed to remind me that NO orc is ever some lowly, puny monster to be wiped out. They are ALWAYS big and potentially dangerous). Which reminds my WHY ON EARTH HAVEN'T WOTC REVIVED THOSE BOOKS??? I think that they did fairly well (and I *loved* Jeff Grubb's Forgotten Realms stories - that is one funny guy) - so naturally they couldn't go on - *sigh* :( > >> Well, just a couple of names I thought of as long as we're dreaming, >anyway : ) > >Oh, and not forgetting Rags Morales! :-) > Ah, well. Actually I never cared so much for Rags Morales. His art was good for the Forgotten Realms comic book, though, because the tone was so humorous (like I said: I love Jeff Grubb's humor). Still, that makes me think of: Michael Collins who did some work on the early Spelljammer issues, and... Ron Randall who did the fifth Dragonlance saga graphic novel (based on the Chronicles trilogy - why didn't they ever finish those graphic novels?). I beliee Randall also worked on some of issues of the Dragonlance comic book, but I'm not so sure. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:13:41 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Just General Musings On the Usual Topic. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>David Knott's point, but I still agree with your original statement that destroying a planet is a bit much - but, hey, that just me! I'm sure to hear from James Ruhland if I suggest that the war somehow triggered a chain-reaction that eventually destroyed Old Alphatia or made it uninhabitable, so I won't :) << > Actually, I one upped you on that point, and laid out a history that puts the blame all at Alphaks ("I")'s feet. 8-) > in the end it comes down to personal taste, since I like Alphatia and you don't (as much as me, anyway). > Well, a lot of it comes down to personal taste. However, guys like Alex aren't advocating a more "traditional DotE"-type Alphatia because they *dislike* Alphatia - its just that they find that one to be more interesting. I think they have a point, a point I tend to share: those who *like* Alphatia and want it to be an interesting place to adventure in should, IMO, prefer a more rounded picture of Alphatia - not one that goes *either* towards only portraying them bad or good. Why? Well now moreso than ever, since Alphatia is floating and somewhat isolated from other countries (well, a bit more than before), adventures are more likely to revolve around internal conflicts: Alphatian vs. Alphatian intrigues and the like, adventures that are based on tensions within Alphatian society (which means it can't be portrayed as utopian as I did in the 1st part of my alternate history, because if people are too contented then their is less rationale for adventures). If Alphatia becomes too benign and everyone too obedient to the (always good-hearted) wishes of the Empress, then it becomes a somewhat dull place; one that's perhaps fun to describe and detail, but *not* so fun to adventure in. You'll note that in the MA, dispite the fact that a lot of the writers like Alphatia, there weren't that many events for HW/Floating Alphatia, except for the ones that produce some general outcome (like the wider array of magic/new use found for the memnonic mineral) - some raids take place (something that will, I hope, liven up the place in future materiel), but other than that nothing of note occurs - because the place has become so placid. And that's no fun, IMO, whether you love Alphatia, like Alphatia, don't care one way or another about Alphatia, or dislike Alphatia. For a converse example, all one has to do is look at Norwold, where tons of stuff happens - dispite the fact that all of Norwold has perhaps a tenth of Alphatia's population. The place is full of activity. Now, I'm not saying that all of Alphatia has to decend into open warfare, like happened in Norwold, but conflict (be it political, social, military, hidden cabals/intrigue, whatever) is what breeds "events", and "events" are what produce adventure oportunities. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:19:31 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: Psionics question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mind of a psionically gifted character is always closed. They need to resolved a mental dual until all the PSPs of one is dropped, then that character's mind (the one without PSPs) can be opened. -- On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:39:00 DM wrote: >Hi everyone! > >Another question for you. I'm about to let one of my players use a >psionicist IMC and this is the first time we try this class in our game. >I've basically sorted out all of the problems and solved them for now, >except one that keeps bugging me. For this reason I've resorted to this >forum to have another view on the matter. So, on with the question. > >On the issue of Open and Closed Mind, since some powers of the psionicist >require the mind of the target to be open, I want to ask you: is the mind >of a psionicist or a psionic creature considered open when he uses a >psionic power, in order to determine if another psionicist/psionic creature >can affect him? >Also, is the mind of a creature capable of casting spells which require >concentration (ie a wizard casting a Phantasmal Force or a Conjure >Elemental) considered open when he does so? > >Again, thanx for your time and your answers. ;) > > > >DM >Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac >First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn > >Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 > >Join the Mystara Webring at: >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html > >Join the Starfleet Academy at: >http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 04:24:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:13:14 Emperor Porphyrogenitus wrote: >So, behold: a new history for a new Alphatia! (actual description snipped - you can all look it up yourself!) Yes this is JUST the sort of history one could expect from Thyatians or other 'barbaric' peoples. Especially with the Alphatian history starting with part II But no. My real comment would actually be... A HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Never let it be said that Alphatians are without humor. (LOL) Historical (in)accuracy aside, Emperor Porphyrogenitus is one funny person. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 04:49:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Just General Musings On the Usual Topic. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:13:41 James Ruhland wrote: >Actually, I one upped you on that point, and laid out a history that puts >the blame all at Alphaks ("I")'s feet. 8-) Yes, I saw it (LOL). >Well, a lot of it comes down to personal taste. However, guys like Alex >aren't advocating a more "traditional DotE"-type Alphatia because they >*dislike* Alphatia - its just that they find that one to be more >interesting. > >I think they have a point, a point I tend to share: those who *like* >Alphatia and want it to be an interesting place to adventure in should, >IMO, prefer a more rounded picture of Alphatia - not one that goes *either* >towards only portraying them bad or good. Why? Well now moreso than ever, >since Alphatia is floating and somewhat isolated from other countries >(well, a bit more than before), adventures are more likely to revolve >around internal conflicts: Alphatian vs. Alphatian intrigues and the like, >adventures that are based on tensions within Alphatian society (which means >it can't be portrayed as utopian as I did in the 1st part of my alternate >history, because if people are too contented then their is less rationale >for adventures). If Alphatia becomes too benign and everyone too obedient >to the (always good-hearted) wishes of the Empress, then it becomes a >somewhat dull place; one that's perhaps fun to describe and detail, but >*not* so fun to adventure in. You'll note that in the MA, dispite the fact >that a lot of the writers like Alphatia, there weren't that many events for >HW/Floating Alphatia, except for the ones that produce some general outcome >(like the wider array of magic/new use found for the memnonic mineral) - >some raids take place (something that will, I hope, liven up the place in >future materiel), but other than that nothing of note occurs - because the >place has become so placid. > And that's no fun, IMO, whether you love Alphatia, like Alphatia, don't >care one way or another about Alphatia, or dislike Alphatia. Ah, this I agree with completely. But, really, I think this was inevitable from the second Alphatia became a floating continent of the Hollow World - who would they fight? The birds? So what you see as a problem, I see as a logical consequence of Alphatia's move to the Hollow World. > For a converse example, all one has to do is look at Norwold, where tons >of stuff happens - dispite the fact that all of Norwold has perhaps a tenth >of Alphatia's population. The place is full of activity. Now, I'm not >saying that all of Alphatia has to decend into open warfare, like happened >in Norwold, but conflict (be it political, social, military, hidden >cabals/intrigue, whatever) is what breeds "events", and "events" are what >produce adventure oportunities. Yes. But don't forget that Alphatia is no longer what it used to be, because what used to be one empire is now two: FLOATING CONTINENT: Hollow World Alphatia has, as you say, become a bit dull. This is because they can have no natural enemies above the skies. They can have skirmishes (like attacking Heldannic Warbirds) or ground problems (Dogrel and Zandor), but there is no direct threat. Even if there were, there are still an outrageous number of archmages who could spill torrents of magical doom over any enemies, so needless to say, few would try. NACE: Outer World Alphatia MUST change, because all the threat of all those archmages are now in the Hollow World. I see this a bit like the nuclear bomb in the real world. Before WotI, nobody would have attacked Alphatia openly because they would eventually have to face all those arch-mages, and that would be suicidal, yet the Alphatians always were (and are) unable to get those same arch-mages to participate in their conquest - their chaotic nature prevents it (I believe Terari gives a good description of this to Galatia in the player's book of DotE, IIRC). The Thyatians, by contrast, are much more disciplined, and could (pre-WotI) organize their mages to measure up to the fraction of their magical might that Alphatia could manage to organize. Since that magical superiority is now gone (all the arch-mages are in the Hollow World), the NACE must find other ways to deal with potential threats. So the, IMO, inescable conclusion is that change is REQUIRED or else Mystaran politics will cease to make sense. I can disagree with how it's done, though, as an 'Alphatiaphile', I naturally prefer that the Alphatians change their ways because it's the right thing to do rather than being forced to do so against their will. Also, remember that the absense of those arch-mages is also an opportunity for the non-spellcasters to rid themselves of all those traditions and laws that hindered them in the past. That is certanly a viable approach if you like it better than "the Alphatians suddenly going all high and noble". I prefer to think that people like Broderick saw an chance to prove the worth of a non-spellcaster and immediately took it, though. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:09:43 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Just General Musings On the Usual Topic. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ah, this I agree with completely. But, really, I think this was inevitable from the second Alphatia became a floating continent of the Hollow World - who would they fight? The birds? So what you see as a problem, I see as a logical consequence of Alphatia's move to the Hollow World. > Well, another notion to disabuse folks of is the impressions that the Alphatians never fought each other - that's who they'd fight. Unfortunately since you don't have DotE (you really should try and pick up a copy if you can, it's worth it), you don't have the map of Alphatia that is included inside it. Alphatia is full of walls, fortifications, castles, and other defensive structures. Where are these located? Are they located on the coasts, for protection against internal invaders? No. They are located around the borders of various Alphatian kingdoms, along the borders with their fellow Alphatians. Inference? The various Alphatian kingdoms built these (very extensive and thus expensive) defensive networks to protect themselves against each other. Second inference? That means they don't always get along very well (note also that the Player's Guide refers to being allowed to conquer a neighboring kingdom and add it to your own). So they fight each other. Does that mean they have to fight hugely destructive wars all the time? Again, no. Remember in my previous post I refered to "conflict," but not *nessissarily* military conflict/war - conflict can take all sorts of forms; rivalries between various Alphatian wizards, political intrigues, spiteful contests, outbreak of thieving and crime, discontent among the servile classes (not nessissarily, but possibly, small-scale uprisings), someone summons a monster and it escapes and he hires adventurers to get rid of it or otherwise he'll be held responsible - in the middle of the adventure the party discovers that the monster didn't just escape on its own, an enemy of the guy that hired him made sure it would, hoping he'd get the blame. Only in the end it turns out that the guy that hired him knew what the other wizard planned to do regarding freeing the summoned monster, and used the party as a convenient tool to eliminate/discredit the rival. Hidden cabals, plots, and the like. They don't have to fight the birds (I saw that movie, and it was ok, but got a little lame). > > So the, IMO, inescable conclusion is that change is REQUIRED or else Mystaran > politics will cease to make sense. > It depends; some of these changes are made simply because people prefer that the Alphatians be portrayed as Paladin-like, not because they are "required by the situation." Some of these same people seem to portray the surface Alphatian Kingdoms (AKA NACE) as having as much magical superiority over their neighbors as before. NACE has as many "Alphatian Artifacts" as people care to create - all you need is a few moments left to let your imagination run wild, and *poof* - enough magical power to maintain their previous level of (wait a minute while I sing the Lollypop Guild song*) "superiority," whatever one imagines that to be. Plus, needing to change and changing are two different things. But that's a whole 'nother topic, one that would I'm sure create circular arguments and lead to discussion's which would boil down to "well, I think they'd immediately recognize the need to make a bunch of wholesale changes in their society" vs "well, I don't think they would, not all the sudden like they did" vs "well, I disagree" vs "well, that's just because you're obstinate" vs "I know you are but what am I?" In the end that discussion would be even more pointless than this one (or that duel between Clerics I mentioned some time ago). *From "Wizard of Oz". It becomes Alphatia's national anthem circa AY 2000, when Haldemar creates the "improved" version of the Princess Ark by completing the Thothian Enchantment. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:27:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia (was ...of Ancient Empires:An Ramblin... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-07 05:11:31 Eastern Standard Time, Scarole@TIN.IT writes: << Yes, yes, I know, but do you think that the magic unleashed to destroy a PLANET would have been less exhausting than the magic used to restore remnants of it? >> That is hard to say -- destruction is generally easier than creation, but in this case the scale of the destruction would be several orders of magnitude greater than that of the creation. << And given the fact Followers of Flame were losing, they could have dealt with them in different ways...I see your point, in this way it is more reasonable, but still WHY destroy a planet? >> Basically, the Followers of Air were really peeved, and they had decided to leave no Followers of Flame alive. Setting off a spell to destroy a planet and then escaping through a gate to another plane would seem to be the most effective way to do that. Of course, since they had previously filled the solar system with air, they actually left a fair number of survivors, some of whom left on their own wanderings but some of whom stayed behind and built the new civilizations described in "Into the Maelstrom". << I think that a simple change that could save the timeline would be that they throwed with some powerful magic most of the Fire Followers in an outer dimension, and then left a ruined planet behind-without destroying it. >> There is actually a reason that I said "pulverized" rather than destroyed -- and again it goes back to the Master's module "Into the Maelstrom". In that module, fairly large numbers of people lived on the remnants of the Alphatian planet in a large, air-filled solar system. Even with its survivors, that solar system is truly a monument to the supremacy of air magic. That is one reason, I think, for Alphaks attaining Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy (for the massive destruction that he indirectly caused) rather than Energy (as his Followers of Flame were ultimately defeated and humiliated). <> That module that I referenced contradicts your interpretation. I would get the impression that only the most vengeful Followers of Flame left Old Alphatia, as the pieces of the pulverized planet remained quite habitable. It could never be as it was before, of course, but from what I read in that module I picture a bizarre but beautiful place. Of course, the question of just what did happen to Alphaks is one that begs to be answered in some detail. Even the history given in DotE is unclear, as it indicates that the Followers of Flame banished him from the plane of Old Alphatia and yet the followers of Air hoped to kill him when they destroyed Old Alphatia -- although of course it is possible that he really was gone but the Followers of Air didn't believe it. Still, it seems most likely that he was not among the Followers of Flame who wandered the planes for 1400 years before reaching Mystara and settling in Glantri. By the way, do the Italian translations of Mystaran products actually add a second "h" to "Alphatia"? Your usage of "Alphathia" seems too consistent to be accidental. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:52:41 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Never let it be said that Alphatians are without humor. (LOL) Historical (in)accuracy aside, > Emperor Porphyrogenitus is one funny person. > We aim to please 8-). Anyhow, this is the "real" version, untainted by the previous version, which was found to be a sinister plot by those Thyatians, which inserted that other version into DotE in order to make the Alphatians look bad. 8-)~ Here is Part III: Wherein Mystara is Graced With the Presence of the Multiverse's Most Perfect Creation: Alphatia. The First 500 Years The Grand Council of Alphatia Soon after the Alphatians' accepted the social contract devised by their Mystaran hosts, the leader of the Followers of Air, by the name Kerothar, and the remaining few score master wizards convened. Most agreed that Kerothar should be the first emperor of the new Alphatia; most also agreed that he should be advised by a group of the wisest of Alphatians. >From this meeting, and those which followed, emerged the fashion of government that is found in Alphatia today. The Empire is led by a single person, an Emperor or Empress. This title is hereditary, passing from parent to the child he or she names, so long as the Grand Council agrees. Though the title might imply some sort of high authority, even autocratic, in Alphatia nothing could be further from the truth, since all are taken to be equal, and Alphatia is an egalitarian society. None the less, the Emperor or Empress' suggestions are usually followed, because they are always exceedingly wise and foresightful suggestions which everyone agrees to. The Grand Council is the other governing body. Every user of magic who achieves ultimate mastery (36th level) can be on the Council - though not everyone is, because there are far, far *far* more than 1,000 wizards of ultimate mastery in Alphatia, and the council just doesn't have room for them all. Sorry, you'll have to wait your turn. The Grand Council is in part responsible for the infallibility of the Emperor or Empress' proclamations, since their wise and never acrimonious sessions invariably result in sound advice being given to the Emperor or Empress. Fragmentation of Belief Inevitably, as magic-users began to study new fields of spellcasting, some left the faith of the Followers of Air and developed new and useful paths. Some wizards, who held beliefs of the Followers of Fire but had been generously saved and brought along to the new world by friends among the Followers of Air began to study fire once more. Contact with the Immortals native to this world convinced many Immortals to study and observe the philosophies of the mighty Alphatians. Though the Alphatians, as superior beings, did not feel the need to worship mere Immortals, many Immortals decided that the Alphatians deserved to be served and aided, and granted wide powers to groups of Alphatians that they admired. Within a generation or two, there was no longer any single philosophy to which all the Alphatians could rally. On the other hand, the folly of Alphaks was an ever present reminder to the Alphatians. Thus they returned to their old tradition of acceptance and tolerance of all beliefs, their original spirit of diversity. Alphatian society developed strict rules for the settlement of arguments--in court, and in rigidly controlled debating forums. Those who broke the rules were admonished to never do so again by the Emperor and Council. The end result has been that this specialization of study and interest has broadened the knowledge of the Alphatians, especially since all knowledge is shared in a spirit of civic beneficence - all knowledge is considered the patrimony of all Alphatians, not just the mage who developed it. Scholastic debate became constructive again, as it had been throughout all Alphatian history with one the one minor exception of the destruction of Old Alphatia. The First Respite After several centuries of civilization building, the Alphatians had developed all the lands around their beloved new homeland, were receiving enormous annual tributes from subject populations who were grateful for the great benefits the mere presence of Alphatians among them gave them. Things were happy and fair. Many outsiders volunteered to serve in Alphatia's military to protect it from the few greedy and envious sorts who would seek to get what was rightfully Alphatian. These mercenaries served loyally so that Alphatian blood would not have to be shed, and Alphatian hands would not have to be dirtied, in these distasteful conflicts. The family of Kerothar I was dedicating to preserving distinct societies of Alphatians, and passed into law the "notwithstanding clause" that made sure that the cultural traits of the "pure" Alphatians would not be submerged by outside influences. Everyone thought that this was a great idea, since preserving the cultural heritage of every people was and is considered the foremost task of all Alphatians. The Kerothar clan allowed its children to chose mates based on love, and all went exceedingly well. Five centuries after Landfall, the Alphatians met the Thyatian tribes when those knavish barbarians, failing to recognize the innate superiority of the Alphatians, began preying on the Alphatian sea-trade. Because the Alphatian nobility was pacifistic and forgiving, little was done to curb this raiding, as it was felt that in time the Thyatians would come to recognize what they were doing was morally wrong. . . .but in time the intransigent wickedness of the Thyatians proved to be a serious drain on the Empire's economy. At the beginning of the ninth century after Landfall, Kerothar IV was Emperor. He was a person with disabilities, but no stigma or handicap was attached to that condition. He was clever in magic, but too trusting of outsiders, some of whom were not as fine and upstanding as Alphatians were. The zzonga fruit, too, had survived the death of its homeworld. Originally one family brought the fruit to this world. It could not grow naturally here, but the family wizards quickly learned to set up magical hothouses where it could flourish. While Alphatians always took it in moderation, some natives did not have as much self-restraint, and abused it, even becoming addicted to it. This caused much anguish among the Alphatians, who never like to see anyone suffer. In the early centuries of this Second Alphatian Empire, the emperors tried to stamp out the abuse of zzonga fruit, with anti-zzonga education programs, but were never quite successful. Later, as Kerothar's clan became less judgmental about drug use, one of its emperors permitted the zzonga-growers to operate undisturbed, but taxed the zzonga manufacturers in order to help pay for the health care of those who were addicted. The Thyatian Barbarians About now, the Alphatians were persuaded that the Thyatians must be stopped, that they were incapable of learning on their own that it was wrong to attack others or engage in piracy. For three or four centuries, the Thyatians had proved that they were a menace to sea-trade. The Alphatians decided that they should be absorbed into the Empire so they could teach them how to be upstanding. But the Thyatians had two traits that were to bring grief to the kindhearted Alphatians. They were crafty schemers, and they were stubbornly wicked. So stubborn were they that the phrase "he/she has a neck like a Thyatian" is still in use by the Alphatians--meaning that the person so described is more stubbornly evil than any other sort of man or fiend alive. It was thought that these barbarians could, like so many others, be educated and learn proper social manners and virtues. The Alphatian mountains were discovered to be full of gold, but the Thyatians were too lazy to mine any of it, and several Alphatian subject peoples wanted to do this work so they could increase their shipments of gold to Sundsvall. The Alphatians reluctantly decided they could no longer be forgiving and tolerant in the face of Thyatian raids, nor could they deny their subjects the opportunity to send them more tribute if they wanted to. So they decided to kill two dragons with one blast. By conquering the Thyatians they could try to teach them ethics, and also please their subject peoples. So they launched a peace keeping and nation building effort in the area held by the three Thyatian tribes. The Thyatians were unusually difficult to subdue and a few Alphatian wizards were murdered by Thyatian terrorists. But the Alphatians usual solution to a problem--negotiating with people in a peace process until they saw reason--eventually seemed to work, and the Thyatians became the latest addition to the Alphatian empire. The Alphatian's accepted the gold their subjects mined from the mountains of the Thyatians, and many Thyatians began to emulate this sound example, and volunteered for mining duty as well. They raised herd-beasts and crops, and sent tribute to Alphatia, though for some reason they didn't seem quite as enthusiastic as Alphatia's other servants. The Alphatians learned some seafaring knowledge and how to build some stout ships from the Thyatians, but these were crude compared to the exquisite examples of Alphatian naval architecture that were already sailing both the high seas and the clouds overhead. In return, the Alphatians taught magical and philosophical arts to their new subjects, engaging in a vast and expensive foreign aid and uplift program, trying to raise Thyatians to a civilized state. But as every Mystaran knows, the stiff-necked Thyatians rejected morality and virtue--or, rather, learned how to mouth it and corrupt it to their own propagandistic uses. They sat and schemed for two centuries, convincing themselves that they were being "enslaved" by an "evil" empire. And eventually they rebelled. The First Alphatian/Thyatian War A Thyatian-born but Alphatian-trained man, Lucinius the Governor of Kerendas, had achieved mastery in spellcasting in his short life. He evidently believed that this entitled him to kingship, even though everyone knows that Alphatian kings are selected on the basis of their wisdom and merit, not mere spellcasting prowess. With the aid of a warrior (a wicked wretch unaquanted with ethics) by the name of Zendrolion, he assassinated the Alphatian wizards present in Thyatis and declared that benighted land an independent kingdom. The Thyatians' lack of scruples worked in their favor. Alphatian troops were prevented by their code of honor from engaging in the kind of atrocities the Thyatians' specialized in. The Alphatians had trouble overcoming their dishonorable way of fighting. The Alphatians would certainly have prevailed eventually. . .if it wasn't for the empire's unwarlike and peaceful nature. Wizards preferred to spend their time in contemplative leisure, not fighting distant, uneducable barbarians. Alphatia was merely interested in defending itself, not attacking anyone. The Thyatians, through crafty deceits and propaganda, convinced other subjects that the Alphatians were "exploiting" them, and caused many to join their revolt (notably the Ochaleans and Pearl Islanders). The Thyatians invaded parts of the Isle of Dawn, while Alphatia called for peace and a negotiated settlement of the conflict. The Thyatians even threatened to assault the Alphatian mainland. Meanwhile, Emperor Kerothar IV was spending the treasury empty planning an epic empire-wide holiday in honor of Alphatia's servants and slaves. Swift action had to be taken. The Grand Council asked Kerothar IV to step down, and he did. A youthful, energetic wizard took the throne and the time-honored name of Alphas, the sixth to wear that name. Alphas sent stern letters to wizards who were reluctant to defend the Empire, and beggared the nation paying crack troops to join Alphatia's armies. The Thyatian advance was stopped at the Isle of Dawn, and eventually peace was signed between Alphas VI and King Lucinius. Had Alphatia not been so reluctant to engage in violence and aggression, Thyatis would have been returned to the fold. . .but not all the good intentions in the world can make up for the wickedness of the Thyatians. Years of Rebuilding In the decades after the war, Alphas VI and the Grand Council set the empire on a schedule of rebuilding. They imposed mild warnings on the few wizards who neglected their duties; they turned the attention of their magics to rebuilding agriculture and trade; they purged there military of those who were tainted by the Thyatians' corruption. Even so, the new Empire of Thyatis, under Emperor Zendrolion and later under Empress Valentia, recovered much more quickly from the war and prospered much sooner, because the Alphatians were more generous and reluctant to impose high burdens on their people or use expedient methods such as the treacherous Thyatians did in order to enrich themselves. In this time, Alphatia turned much of its attention on building and developing its dominions in the far east. It subsidized northern peacekeepers to remove one Thyatian trading post built on Alphatian lands (in what is now Mystara), and kept up a strong military deterrent force on the disputed Isle of Dawn, but mostly kept its attentions on its eastern territories, where Jennite tribes were now welcoming the arrival of Alphatian leaders. It took until Year 1250 (AC 250 in the Thyatian calendar) for Alphatia to consider herself sufficiently recovered to begin expansion again in the west. First, colonies were planted on the northern coasts of Ylaruam at the invitation of the Alaysians, and these rich colonies produced much for the Empire for 250 years. During that time, too, the Alphatian/Thyatian border lines on the Isle of Dawn moved back and forth numerous times; though Alphatian virtue was greater than Thyatian military power, the pathetic Thyatian habit of treachery and duplicity subverted much of the island's population, making recovery of our lost territories there difficult. Around Year 1400 (AC 400 in the Thyatian calendar), Alphatian sorcerers discovered that descendants of the Followers of the Flame had settled deep in the western continent, and sent them a welcome note and encouragement in building their nation. Modern Times A century later, the Alphatian colonies expanding southward down the coast of Ylaruam encountered the northward-moving Thyatians. Fierce but sporadic fighting broke out between the colonies when the Thyatians yet again ignored our peaceful intent and tried to invade our territory, Mystara. This conflict was to continue off and on for more than two hundred years. However, this (as usual) was a peaceful time in the Empire. At this time, the greatest period of building and internal strengthening since the last great time of building and internal strengthening took place within the Empire. Great schools were built, and the great cities were expanded and renovated, and the great barns were raised, and great silos filled with great grain and great cows were constructed. The great cows gave great milk, which was made into great cheese and given to our great slaves with great gratitude. A greatly charismatic wizardess by the name of Mylertendal, a resident of the city of Aasla, began embracing the Alphatian philosophy of growth and beautification. It was her belief that the Alphatians had been infected with the Thyatian's desire for conquest and land-grabbing, since the Alphatians had never once engaged in this sort of behavior before meeting the Thyatians, and that the race must instead return to the older values of living by generosity towards others, toleration of all, and peaceful contemplation of the mysteries of their navels. She spent years beautifying her own tower in Aasla and preaching her political philosophies--that the Empire was created to rule the whole world, but by invitation only, that the Grand Council should use its power to limit population growth through family planning policies, and that magical energy should be expended in making Alphatia's lower classes the most glorious and prosperous people in the world. She was successful in every respect, and every city and kingdom in the Empire shows signs of this great Alphatian preoccupation with helping the less fortunate and with opening lavish soup kitchens and poor houses of brilliant design and beauty--and in the continued Alphatian indifference to military matters and questions of expansion, except on the occasions when they do engage in military matters and expansion (as in Norwold). Mylertendal still lives, and is a social worker tending to the poor in Aasla. While this domestic tranquility was taking place, the Alphatian colonies in Ylaruam were busy crushing their pitiful Thyatian rivals (nevermind that the Alphatian colonies in Ylaruam lasted longer than the Alphatian ones, or that they still hold Tel Akbir even today - I tell you they were crushed, so they were crushed). But at the moment of triumph the Ylari banded together under the banner of a man who had been enlightened by Alphatia's philosophies, and since our job was done, we gladly withdrew to let them govern themselves. The enlightened Ylari then ascended into the ranks of the Immortals, not quite as good as becoming an Alphatian but a passable second. Not long after that, 50 years or so, a Grand Council member named Halzunthram was invited by the distant Followers of Flame to rule over them. This task he generously accepted, and began a distinguished reign far away from Alphatia. In far-away Flaem lands, the Alphatian descendants of the city of Braejr were attempting to teach Alphatian civilization to other colonists in the same land--particularly Thyatian settlers and elves. But they lacked the long experience of the Alphatians in these matters, and requested assistance. With a few hand-picked sociologists and little in the way of supplies, Halzunthram would travel there, offer his aid, and become their rightful leader. It was a good plan, and it worked. Within two years, the humans and elves under Halzunthram had been assimilated into the Flaemish civilization of Braejr as part of its mosaic of cultures. He announced the land an Alphatian protectorate, but his citizens - inspired by the treachery of the Thyatians in their midst -- betrayed him and ungratefully cast him out. The Alphatian emperor Tylion IV, looking for a way to recoup some of the Empire's losses, began a colonizing effort in the long-forgotten lands of Norwold--and even so, not long after, Thyatians began their own settlements there, too, though they were not invited to come by the inhabitants. The Last Half Century In Year 1959 (AC 959 to the Thyatians), the Thyatians broke a treaty concerning trade conducted between the Thyatian and Alphatian empires. This so angered Emperor Tylion IV--it was far from the first treaty broken by the barbarians while he sat the throne--that he uncharacteristically for an Alphatian lost his temper and forbearance and decided to destroy the Thyatian Empire once and for all, and ordered a massive attack on mainland Thyatis. By day's end, he had taken most of the Isle of Dawn and was preparing for tomorrows assault on Thyatis itself. The next day, Alphatian forces reached Thyatis City itself, slew its emperor, and--briefly--reasserted rightful Alphatian control over this nefarious land. But a sudden counter-attack by massed hordes--and led by the crude fighter who was to be the Thyatians' next Emperor--broke the tip off the assault's spearhead and drove the Alphatians out of the city. The barbarians' stubbornness and nastiness sufficed to throw the Alphatian army back to the Isle of Dawn, and recaptured most Thyatian holdings on that island. For Emperor Tylion IV, this was the last blow. He had behaved with unusual irresponsibility, ignoring Alphatia's pacific ways and trying to settle the dispute with Thyatis through war instead of diplomacy. He had failed to protect the Antalians of Norwold from incursions by Thyatis, or from preventing the Thyatians from duping the Glantrians into ingratitude towards Halzunthram. The Grand Council determined that he was no longer the man to head the Empire. Whatever the reasons for his failures, he had failed to live up to the standards of Alphatian decorum. The Council could not force him to step down; but they could ask him politely, and they did. Tylion's daughter, herself a master magician and named heir to the throne, took this recommendation to him. In the face of the Grand Council's request, he did so, and his daughter, Eriadna the Wise Also Like All other Alphatian Rulers Before Her With One Notable But Excusable Exception ("the Wise" for short), became Empress. In the years since, she has expanded the development program in Norwold, stabilized the borders of the Isle of Dawn, kept Thyatian terrorism in check, and maintained a stern opposition to rude behavior. Though she has been Empress for less than 40 years, it seems she will be counted among the better rulers of the Empire, along with all the others (except one). If you enjoy the above True And Accurate History of Alphatia, Part I (AY 2000 - Present) will appear tomorrow perhaps. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 23:01:40 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia In-Reply-To: <200001071407.JAA16957@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:05 AM 1/7/00 -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > >Btw, if we're going to "pretty up" the Alphatian timeline, why be pikers >about it and limit ourselves to only the events surrounding the Civil War? >We can design a timeline more appropriate for the Alphatia that has emerged >and people's current images of it. . . . . I've been looking over a lot of the Alphatian stuff that has been done so far already, and I think there's been some good attempts at this by Geoff, myself, Jeff Daly, and a few others. Certainly, the way several points in Alphatian history have been scripted by we Mystaran contributors, the Alphatians had their hands tied in many different affairs during the course of their history- conflicts with the elves of the central forests; rebellion in the northlands; conflicts among southern kingdoms... not to mention difficulties in imperial holdings such as Thothia and Ochalea. There is certainly quite a lot of room to script more detailed explanations of Alphatian history (including the long neglected reasons for Alphatia not reaching out and conquering everyone around them :) Also, as I was rereading Dawn of the Emperors last night, I came across some interesting references in the Players Guide to Alphatia. The entry on "The First Decline" in the history section (an interesting title in itself- when was the second decline?). Evidently, Alphatia was in a steady decline from the beginning of the 9th century AY (c.800 AY) until 1000 AY when Alphas VI took over. That's a 200 year decline. Seems to me this should be a pretty black period in Alphatian history, yet we never really hear anything more about it... Anyway, the point is just that, like in most areas of Mystaran history, there's still plenty of room to insert our own events into things and flesh out what has come before. And I think there is certainly an interest. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 01:13:40 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I've been looking over a lot of the Alphatian stuff that has been done so > far already, and I think there's been some good attempts at this by Geoff, > myself, Jeff Daly, and a few others. > Well, true to an extent - the problem with my generalizations (which is what they have been, I admit) is it slights good examples to the contrary. Point taken. > Certainly, the way several points in > Alphatian history have been scripted by we Mystaran contributors, the > Alphatians had their hands tied in many different affairs during the course > of their history- conflicts with the elves of the central forests; > rebellion in the northlands; conflicts among southern kingdoms... not to > mention difficulties in imperial holdings such as Thothia and Ochalea. > Well, I also have to admit I haven't read all of these, and was mainly writing concerning the "official" materiels and the impressions some people have gotten from those - examples to the contrary such as you give, of well-developed detailed histories supplimenting the "official" stuff is certainly valid, and as I said above your point is taken. Then again though, their *are* those who's portrayals don't make my "Alphatian History (revised)" seem like the humor/parody it is meant as - their picture of what Alphatia is or should be like, at least from what I have come to know based upon posts, websites (I.E. the Principality Mysteria site). . .well, lets just say I've visited webpages where the "Alphatian History (revised)" would fit right in as a seriously-intended timeline. Then again their are other efforts, such as the examples you gave. There is a wide range of opinions - I (undisciplined me) dove back into this issue based on the PWA stuff, and remarks to the effect that perhaps Alphatia's history should be fixed or improved (later retracted. Still, I had fun writting the "Alphatian History (revised)" and some have had fun reading it. I hope all enjoy it - and if some get some real gaming use out of it, then more power to 'em I say; people should run their campaigns the way they want to, and certainly ignore loudmouths like me if they disagree with my point of view. That *is* one thing the new me has learned, I hope.) > > There is certainly quite a lot of room to script more detailed explanations > of Alphatian history (including the long neglected reasons for Alphatia not > reaching out and conquering everyone around them :) > I will have to check these out in more detail; I'm behind in my reading - I possibly even read some of this stuff you mention in the past, but my memory aint what it used to be, and I have to refresh it. > Also, as I was rereading Dawn of the Emperors last night, I came across > some interesting references in the Players Guide to Alphatia. The entry on > "The First Decline" in the history section (an interesting title in itself- > when was the second decline?). > Yes - that title does reach out and grab some people. > Evidently, Alphatia was in a steady decline > from the beginning of the 9th century AY (c.800 AY) until 1000 AY when > Alphas VI took over. That's a 200 year decline. Seems to me this should be > a pretty black period in Alphatian history, yet we never really hear > anything more about it... > True, it does sound rather nasty, decadent, and disillute. But then to be honest Thyatis' "present" (in the official history) is about the same - though it seems, from the writting, that Alphatians took their decline to a even greater extreme. But it's hard to tell. They "declined" for 200 years without losing much until the very end there (during the 1st Big Spat). Of course Gibbon thought the Roman Empire had an uninterupted decline for about 1200 years, so that makes 200 seem short. > Anyway, the point is just that, like in most areas of Mystaran history, > there's still plenty of room to insert our own events into things and flesh > out what has come before. And I think there is certainly an interest. > Yep. Which reminds me, when I'm finished having fun I have to get back to work (not "real" work, but the important work - game stuff), and one of these days I have to get back to fleshing out a Thyatian timeline, which has been "under construction" on my website for over a year now. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 02:27:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Civil War in Old Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-08 01:56:01 Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << Also, as I was rereading Dawn of the Emperors last night, I came across some interesting references in the Players Guide to Alphatia. The entry on "The First Decline" in the history section (an interesting title in itself- when was the second decline?).>> Maybe the reign of Tylion IV -- note the list of his defeats and failures on p. 8 of that book. << Evidently, Alphatia was in a steady decline from the beginning of the 9th century AY (c.800 AY) until 1000 AY when Alphas VI took over. That's a 200 year decline. Seems to me this should be a pretty black period in Alphatian history, yet we never really hear anything more about it... >> It was probably a lot like Melnibone as depicted near the beginning of Elric's reign -- the nobility mostly high on hallucinatory drugs and treating their many slaves much the way we might treat pets and livestock. Of course, the Thyatian rebellion actually seems to have spurred changes for the better, as it shocked the Alphatians into realizing that "lesser" humans had to be taken seriously if the Alphatian Empire was to survive. Of course, if DotE is any indication, then their attitudes as of ca. 1000 AC/ 2000 AY still had a long way to go.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 01:42:14 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian History (Revised), Pt III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (nevermind that the Alphatian colonies in Ylaruam lasted longer than the > Alphatian ones, or that they still hold Tel Akbir even today - I tell you > they were crushed, so they were crushed). > Och, Imperfection sullies my once-proud screed! The above should have read "(nevermind that the Thyatian colonise in Ylaruam lasted longer than the Alphatian ones. . ." Oh well, no biggie. I hate imperfection. Grrrrrr ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.