========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:19:18 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: thib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi there, thanks for the praises in the map section, i am blushing now... Anyway i tried to follow the links but there seem to be a problem with the yavdlom map which doesnt download. I off for the week end, there has been a formidable storm (89 deads) here in france 3 weeks ago and i have to go back to the countryside where i used to live to help fix up the mess. But i would be at home monday. Ps: as a side note i would like to know the origin of the name of the week in english. monday is the day of the moon thursday is the day of Thor friday must be the day of Frey and Freya sunday is for the sun saturday is for saturn but what about tuesday and wednesday? -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:17:58 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Mystara Pronunciation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Rogers To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara Pronunciation > Mirros: spec-you-lar-um > Hahaha! Good one! Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:57:04 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mystarans: Working on the GPD project where we go deep into the psychology of the Glantrian nobles, I've come to realize the differences in gender baises and stereotypes in the Known World cultures. Most of our real world cultures have had a strong patriarchal bias, hence the archetypes of the strong dominant male and the meek subservient woman. From this also stems the contrary archetypes of the stong woman in power (i.e. Queen Elizabeth) and the pathetic male weakling. (This, of course, in not in any way absolute, considering other times, other cultures, etc.. There are other archetypes, but RW setting is not our focus here.) Having said that, I realized that these are the default stereotypes do not necessarily apply in Mystaran cultures. A Thyatian may view the strong-willed independent Princess Stefania (of the "rebelling against arranged marriage and killing her bridegroom in the wedding bed" fame) as an execptionally powerful female personality. However, an Alphatian, who comes from a non-patriarchal society, might not be as impressed. It will also be interesting to view the cultural clashes when it comes to gender bias. It is mentioned in GAZ "Dawn of the Emperors" that this is one of the roots of conflicts between the two emperors.the two cultures. Thyatians generally view Alphatian women as strong-willed (for better or for worse), and Alphatians see Thyatian men as chauvanistic bigots and Thyatian women as subservient fools. In Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, it is mentioned that the misogynistic practices of the ethnic Ethengarans also cause friction between them and the rest of the Principalities. Here's my rough run-down of different societies/cultures of Mystara and their gender biases: Thyatians: A patriarchal society, but with a grudging admiration for strong women, such as their Immortal Patroness Vanya. As the Thyatians have spread all throughout Mystara, this patriarchal culture has had a strong impact in many nations and people. Milenians: A very strong patriarchal society, without the Thyatian admiration for women. I suspect, instead a very strong and positive attitude towards masculinity that some form of homosexuality is probably commonplace. Ethengarans: Patriarchal to the point that women are really subservient. Even in among Ethengarans of Glantri, gender bias was so strong that Lady Lan-Syn Virayana, a powerful wizardess and probably the most capable ruler, was quickly deposed as Princess of Krondahar. Ochaleans: Similar to Ethengarans, but less harsh. Ochalean women have actually flourished in their oriental culture, developing a feminine mystique found among no other women in Mystara. Darokinians: Strong Thyatian influence makes this society patriarchal, but not as chauvanistic as the Thyatians. Alphatians: In contrast to Thyatians, this sociey has no gender bias, giving premium to magical ability and personal merit. In Alphatia, marriage is a meeting of equals and does not put the woman in a subservient position (Alphatian women do not take their husband's last name, as Alphatians do not have a last name.). In fact, marriage is not as common as in patriarchal cultures, as men and women can agree to a union as well as a dis-union quite easily, so some partners do not bother with ceremonies (i.e. Empress Eriadna and King Zyndryl of Aquas). Flaems and Glantrian Alphatians: Both originating from the mainland Alphatians, these cutlures also do not have gender bias. Being Glantrians however, they have been influenced by Thyatian cultures, particularly in the practice of having a surname and the wife taking the husband's surname (i.e. Lady Wilhelmine Vlaardoen). Marriage however is not as common, nor as binding. Pearl Islanders and Thothians/Nithians: These cutlures also have no gender bias, and put emphasis in personal talent and achievement. It was quite common in ancient Nithia for the pharaoh to be a woman. Laterrans (Sylaire, Kaelic, Fenswick): Although these cultures come from a dimension very similar to the RW, since their arrival to Mystara, they have given much of the patriarchal biases. Although certain customs (such as taking the husband's surname) are still maintained, like most Glantrians, spellcasting ability takes precedence over gender. (i.e. Princess Isidore d'Ambreville, wife of non-spellcasting Sire Richard) Elves (Alfheim, Erewan, Wendar): These elves also have no gender bias, female elves being equal to male elves in fighting and spellcasting ability. Humans have thus been fascinated by the elven female, having both feminine characterisitcs (fine, delicate, lithe) as well as masculine (strong, poweful, agile). Unfortunately, elven males are subject to similar biases being viewed as soft and weak (not that they are, as most humans find out the hard way). Elves (Belcadiz): These elves of Glantri have taken to Thyatian customs (i.e. surnames and marriage changes), but are in no way biased. In fact, Belcadizan males tend viewed as more masculine and thus, charming and debonaire, compared to their other elven cousins. As I am not well-versed in all of Mystaran nations, I can't discuss myself the gender biases of the other cultures. I'd like to know your ideas about them, particularly the Traladrans (patriarchal? Karameikans, being Thyatian, are definitely so), the Azcans and Oltecs, the Jennites, the Northerners, the hin, the dwarves, the humanoids, the Makai (Ierendi), the Minrothadders, the peoples of the Savage Coast, and the rest of the people of Mystara. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Sir, I am the ruler of this dominion, not my husband. And although my beloved Richard can run you through with a sword faster than I can blast you with a lightning bolt, I am the Princess of Nouvelle Averoigne, and he is not its Prince. You must deal with me." --Princess Isidore d'Ambreville, teaching a visiting Thyatian ambassador a thing or two about Glantrian sexual politics. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 02:36:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: [OT] Weekday Names (was: Re: Thib) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thibault sarlat wrote: > Ps: as a side note i would like to know the origin of the name of the > week in english. > monday is the day of the moon > thursday is the day of Thor > friday must be the day of Frey and Freya > sunday is for the sun > saturday is for saturn > but what about tuesday and wednesday? Tuesday -- Teiu's Day (another Scandinavian God, can't remember much else about it though, and I may have spelled it incorrectly) Wednesday - Woden's (Odin's) Day -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:02:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > "Sir, I am the ruler of this dominion, not my husband. And although my > beloved Richard can run you through with a sword faster than I can blast you > with a lightning bolt, I am the Princess of Nouvelle Averoigne, and he is > not its Prince. You must deal with me." > --Princess Isidore d'Ambreville, teaching a visiting Thyatian ambassador a > thing or two about Glantrian sexual politics. > Thyatian ambassadors are not that stupid. And remember: we fought for YOU in the War. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis BTW: The discussion is interesting, though. I'll see what I Can Do. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:14:11 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I'm running WotI right now, and I'm trying to make the fight on the frontlines as close to World War 1 as possible. I've also played a few battles on the Savage Coast using Renaissance tech (ie, cannons and muskets) which was fun. It's interesting to note that ranged weapons like arrows and musket balls typically outrange spells, so one tactic is to ensure that the wizard is peppered before he gets close enough to hit. On the sort of battles I was fooling with in WotI, the Thyatians and Alphatians both had trenches around 250-300 yards apart from each other. In terms of tactics... (apologies, lots of AD&D spells in here). The reason I plumped for WW1 is because although magic has been around for a long time, I'm assuming that it is only comparatively recently that troops have access to really large amounts of magical firepower. The same problem is faced by Mystaran commanders as was faced in 1914 - the battlefield has changed, but can the commanders change with it? Tactics by Both Sides Random invisibility purges are thrown into no mans land at regular intervals, making infiltration via invisibility a risky affair. Augury spells are cast daily by the priests, which usually give at least some indication of when an attack is about to take place - should the augury hint of trouble on a given day, divination and maybe even commune spells are deployed to gain more information. Both sides use large trebuchets filled with an interesting variety of magical shot - the Alphatians favourite are hailcone shot, which airburst and volley shards of ice in all directions (3d10 damage, no save, 40' radius), and a cloudkill variety weapon which bursts into a cloud of gas with effect identical to cloudkill spells. The Thyatians on the other hand like using firetrapped small boxes which they catapult into the no mans land between the sides - an unlucky soldier stepping on one may cause the box to break and the firetrap to detonate. Of course, this is somewhat indiscriminate and affects soldiers of both sides. Thyatian priests also created a dispel magic variant, which has proven very effective against the Alphatians, but sadly like all these "special munitions" they are in short supply. Alphatians The Alphie army is basically peasant levies, who when they actually attack get cut down in droves by the more disciplined Thyatians (there are exceptions, but thats the general rule). However, they have the magical plus. Tactics insofar as the use of ground forces is basically nil - whip the peasants towards the Thyatian line. Magically - the Alphies send cloudkills, stinking clouds and other nasty effects floating across towards the Thyatians, then try to exploit the gaps they create with troops. Solid Fogs are used to deny an area of ground to the Thyatians. Gust of Wind can be used to move these clouds about the battlefield to where they are needed. Air elementals (my fave is the Eolian) patrol the skies above the reach of bowshot, and on occasion come down to play havoc with Thyatian soldiers. Meanwhile earth elementals attempt to infiltrate the opposition below ground, and prevent the enemy from doing the same. Sadly, all these efforts are very rarely coordinated properly, meaning that though casualties are high little progress is actually made. The Alphatians see themselves as locked into a war of attrition - they use their soldiers as a shield while the mages dish out the real damage, looking for body count rather than any immediate tactical gain. Thyatians The Thyatian army has the advantage of far superior discipline and training - though early in the war at least the command ranks proved to be woefully inadequate (reminds me of a few WW1 field marshals). Faced with practically continual assaults via cloudkill and other aeromancy, Thyatian trench defences are angled so that heavier than air clouds are diverted into specially constructed spaces underground, away from the troops. In some cases, Thyatian and Glantrian alchemists try to mass produce potions which afford protection against such attacks, but there are nowhere near enough to go around. Thyatian magic in general is more concerned with making the footsoldier more capable, rather than directly targeting the enemy with magical firepower. The troops themselves are well acquainted with magic. When in training the likely effects of battlefield magic is drilled into them - the average Thyatian soldier can give you quite a good idea of how to tell a stinking cloud from a cloudkill, the blast radius of fireball spell, or the likely range of magic missile. Formations are designed accordingly - they have mastered the art of attacking in a loose, spread formation and concentrating only when so close to the enemy that enemy magics will prove equally devastating to both sides. Thyatian magic, though not plentiful, is almost always coordinated better than the Alphatians manage, meaning that the indiscriminate war of attrition type Alphatian style is not used in favour of more precise damage on a tactical scale. Special sharpshooter units attempt to identify and deal with enemy spellcasters sighted on the battlefield, they are almost invariably provided with magical backup in the form of a war mage or priest, enabling them to deal even with magical threats. Sharpshooters advance with the Thyatians and do what they can to disrupt the Alphatian magical defence. Theres a bit more, but I've got to go get a haircut ;) I set a 12/15/12 fighter mage thief loose on this battlefield, and he nearly died half a dozen times. It was suitably lethal and capable of dealing with high level spellcasters ;) I'm more concerned about the use of conjured monsters, and things like mages polymorphed into umber hulks and breaking the enemy line by going underground. Most elementals are immune to whatever an army can push at them, so theoretically the army is helpless. I'm eager to hear any more comments on this subject :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:19:27 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >RAKES >I wonder how many Thieves are passing themselves off as Rakes in Mystara >currently? As long as they don't get caught actually doing non Rake, but >thiefly, things it's probably most of them. >Personally I think the restrictions given to rakes don't really make sense >e.g. Well, having converted the cool Darokin Merchant to AD&D I was eager to do the same with the rake, but then I thought - why? Rakes just didnt make sense to me. I think either thieves or some of the AD&D bards are the rake equivalent (theres a cool bard called a Gallant in the Complete Bard, they are like rakes). Rakes are just useless. >SWASHBUCKLERS >In Red Steel, and perhaps all of Mystara, Swashbucklers can be mages, >fighters and thieves. There may also be some clerical candidates out there >too e.g. > >Speciality priests of Asterius in his aspect of thief patron, >Speciality priests of Korotiku (Korotiku and swashbuckling go so well >together), >Speciality priests of Eriundel. > >Others perhaps? Well, Mealiden Starwatcher on the Savage Coast is Milan, Patron of Swashbucklers, so theres another one straight away. It even describes Mealiden as a swashbuckler elf in the Codex of the Immortals, if I remember correctly. I'm starting up a fresh Red Steel campaign right now, I've already got a Gallant in the party. Theres going to be a swashbuckler priest of Nyx as well (! go figure !) who will, I imagine, be making all sorts of swashbuckling Lightning Zombies and that sort of thing.... Bizarre. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:42:10 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Thyatian ambassadors are not that stupid. > And remember: we fought for YOU in the War. > "Oh, but Iulius Sergius Scaevola my good friend; haven't you realized that at this point Thyatians only exist on Mystara to provide two-dimensional caricature card-board cut-outs for other nations to demonstrate their moral superiority against and to look down upon and self-congradulate themselves for not being as bad as the Thyartians (in other words allowing them to become the two-dimensional charicature card-board cut-outs of "enlightenment" contrasting themselves sharply against Thyatian "benightedness" and stupidity)? Surely you must realize that, my Captain." - V.R. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob > >RAKES > >I wonder how many Thieves are passing themselves off as Rakes in Mystara > >currently? As long as they don't get caught actually doing non Rake, but > >thiefly, things it's probably most of them. > >Personally I think the restrictions given to rakes don't really make sense > >e.g. > Well, having converted the cool Darokin Merchant to AD&D I was eager to do > the same with the rake, but then I thought - why? Rakes just didnt make > sense to me. I think either thieves or some of the AD&D bards are the rake > equivalent (theres a cool bard called a Gallant in the Complete Bard, they > are like rakes). Rakes are just useless You have to have the proper sense of what a rake is. Think of the Cavalier poets of the 17th century. Read some Robert Herrick... 1 Whenas in silks my Julia goes, 2 Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows 3 That liquefaction of her clothes. 4 Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see 5 That brave vibration each way free, 6 O how that glittering taketh me! Now, Herrick COULD have said, "Oooo baby! I love it when you take off your clothes!" But he didn't. He, and other poets of the time, aspired to wit. Now, the so-called "zingers" you hear nowadays (Also known as cut-downs or put-downs) are the poor bastard children of wit. Ben Jonson summed up what wit is very well, "What was oft thought, but ne'er so well expressed." This is a very short lesson of the origin of the rake, so bear with me... Read some of that, and think of courtly men. Men who are at home with a wine glass held gently in the fingers, and men who are the epitome of dashing. Think of Lando Calrissian. Think of Sir Francis Drake. Think of Errol Flynn. There is a certain culture, as well as a certain danger to these men. They do not fit the profile of "thief" but some thief skills are appropriate to them. How else, after all, could a man properly scale a sheer surface with a rose in his mouth? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:45:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Francisco V. Navarro > Dear Mystarans: > > Working on the GPD project where we go deep into the psychology of the > Glantrian nobles, I've come to realize the differences in gender baises and > stereotypes in the Known World cultures. Most of our real world cultures > have had a strong patriarchal bias, hence the archetypes of the strong > dominant male and the meek subservient woman. From this also stems the > contrary archetypes of the stong woman in power (i.e. Queen Elizabeth) and > the pathetic male weakling. (This, of course, in not in any way absolute, > considering other times, other cultures, etc.. There are other archetypes, > but RW setting is not our focus here At the end of this entire post, I am still not sure what you mean by "gender bias". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:48:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: MYSTARA-greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you aware that all caps is considered shouting? Welcome aboard, I like that bumper sticker too. ----- Original Message ----- From: kevin wyton To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 11:17 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] MYSTARA-greetings > GREETINGS TO ALL ON THE MYSTARA MAILING LIST. AS A NEW SUBSCRIBER I'VE BEEN > ENJOYING YOUR DISCUSSIONS IMMENSELY.AS SOON AS I GET MY PROVERBIAL FECES > TOGETHER I HAVE A WEALTH OF INFO TO SHARE.WATCH FOR THE TALE OF DARIEN > MOONEDGE, MASTER BLADESINGER TO UNFOLD.TILL THEN; KEEP TALKING, I'M > LISTENING. > > > OH YEAH, I'VE NOTICED SOME SIGNOFFS WITH INTERESTING SAYINGS. HERE'S A > BUMPER STICKER I FOUND AMUSING > > "KEEP HONKING, I'M RELOADING" > > KEVIN WYTON > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:19:34 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >You have to have the proper sense of what a rake is. Think of the Cavalier >poets of the 17th century. Read some Robert Herrick... OK, so its a bard. A Gallant, to be precise. I think the Gallant is somewhat superior to the Rake as given because you can actually play a gallant and have a purpose in an adventuring party. Whereas a Rake is like a Guilder in Birthright - as much use as a chocolate fireplace in an adventure. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:29:19 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the case of Isidore and Richard in _Mark of Amber_, the change in their relative dominance should have provided a clue that something was amiss. Since Isidore and not Richard was supposed to be the ruler, why was Richard giving all the orders? I find it interesting that nobody noticed that discrepancy except in hindsight. In fact, a few things I have read showed more gender bias in the authors than in the people described -- for example, in G:KoM notice that bizarre remark about Vanserie's brother Anton (supposedly a fighter) giving up his claim to Linden in favor of Juliana -- never mind that Juliana was the obvious heir and that Anton as a supposed mundaner would have had no claim at all. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:02:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Seeking "playtest" comments on Jet Black MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And the silence was deafening. *sigh*. :-/ So, in any case, I'm sort of "reposting" this request, just in case there are other reasons besides "no one has actually run the module" to explain why no one has sent any playtest comments to me. I do realize that this reason is entirely possible, of course, but I just want to be sure. Actually, I would also be delighted to hear from anyone else who has only just read it but haven't ever shared their thoughts on the module with me before. Heck, even if you *have* shared your thoughts but have had more things occur to you since then, I'd certainly appreciate the extra feedback if you'd care to share it. :-) Finally -- would it be worth my time to create an HTML version of this file? How many people out there can't download or make use of the MS Word 97 and RTF file formats? How many also can't access ZIP files or Self Extracting files? "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: > > Hey everyone: > > For a number of reasons, I'm thinking about converting/modifying my "Jet > Black" Module (that I 'unofficially' label as JAMM1) into 2E format (it's > originally 0E format of course). In the past, I've had "first impression" > comments sent to me by a few list members (and which I definitely > appreciated) but now I'm wondering if there is anyone out there who has > actually *PLAYED* it -- either as part of an ongoing campagin or as a "one > shot" module -- and who would be willing to offer some "playtest" comments > on it. > > Constructive criticism on where improvements could be made or comments > on when certain things maybe didn't work as smoothly as they might have, > is the sort of thing that I'm looking for -- though if you feel like > sending me a heap of glorious praise I'll be happy to accept that too ;-) > > Anyone with comments should send them privately -- no need to fill the > list up with personal comments. :-) > > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- > > PS: For anyone 'new' who hasn't seen the module and may be interested -- > it's set in Darokin and can be seen in its current form at my "minimal" > Mystara page: http://www.jamm.com/mystara/index.html > :JAMM > -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:32:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:14:11 Rob wrote: >Well, I'm running WotI right now, and I'm trying to make the fight on the >frontlines as close to World War 1 as possible. I've also played a few >battles on the Savage Coast using Renaissance tech (ie, cannons and muskets) >which was fun. > >It's interesting to note that ranged weapons like arrows and musket balls >typically outrange spells, so one tactic is to ensure that the wizard is >peppered before he gets close enough to hit. On the sort of battles I was >fooling with in WotI, the Thyatians and Alphatians both had trenches around >250-300 yards apart from each other. >In terms of tactics... (apologies, lots of AD&D spells in here). Don't worry - I play AD&D, too :) (excellent strategical tactics description snipped) >I'm more concerned about the use of conjured monsters, and things like mages >polymorphed into umber hulks and breaking the enemy line by going >underground. Most elementals are immune to whatever an army can push at >them, so theoretically the army is helpless. And you'll have to deal with that because certainly high-leveled Alphatian wizards will definitely use Air Elementals. Thyatian (and Glantrian) wizards will also use Elementals, of course, but the Alphatians are probably better equipped to counter them! > >I'm eager to hear any more comments on this subject :) > Hmm. This is most interesting as I (as the DM) is also playing through WotI at the moment. The PCs are currently helping defend Darokin City against The Master and his Desert Nomads (Spring 1006 AC). Naturally, the Darokin-Nomads conflict has little magic involved, although I had the Glantrians send them some aid! (Still, the PCs were *shocked* when I sprung the manscorpions on them on the battlefield ). There are a few other things I want to comment on, though. First, you describe the Alphatian tactics correctly IMO, but keep in mind that the Alphatians were very efficient during the war - even though they were forced to use conventional tactics after the destruction of most of their Skyship Navy at Aasla. The efficiency and dedication of the Alphatians were one of the major surprises of the war, because normally they were pretty bad at this sort of thing (the Immortal Alphatia's encouragement of the war had something to do with this IMO). By the same notion, the Thyatians were surprisingly bad at their usual strengths during the early parts of the war, owing to the efforts of Valerias in Thyatis City. These things are important to keep in mind, since they are essential reason why things went the way they did - I don't think the Alphatians would ever have come as far as they did under normal circumstances (and I say that as an Alphatiaphile), since their lack of interest and inability to commit what's required in a full-scale war is one of the characteristics of the Alphatians - that, IMO, is a big reason why they were driven back in 959 AC, even though they had already advanced as far as Thyatis City! Still, your tactics are sound, and I might steal them outright if the PCs IMC get involved in the Alphatian-Thyatian conflict. :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:47:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:42:10 James Ruhland wrote (answering to Caroletti): >> >> Thyatian ambassadors are not that stupid. >> And remember: we fought for YOU in the War. >> Oh, of course you did. The opportunity to once again fight us Alphatians naturally had nothing to do with it :) >"Oh, but Iulius Sergius Scaevola my good friend; haven't you realized that >at this point Thyatians only exist on Mystara to provide two-dimensional >caricature card-board cut-outs for other nations to demonstrate their moral >superiority against and to look down upon and self-congradulate themselves >for not being as bad as the Thyartians (in other words allowing them to >become the two-dimensional charicature card-board cut-outs of >"enlightenment" contrasting themselves sharply against Thyatian >"benightedness" and stupidity)? > >Surely you must realize that, my Captain." > > - V.R. Finally the Thyatians know their place!! [Oh James - you make it too easy] :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:02:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > Dear Mystarans: > > Working on the GPD project where we go deep into the psychology of the > Glantrian nobles, I've come to realize the differences in gender baises and > stereotypes in the Known World cultures. [snip] > As I am not well-versed in all of Mystaran nations, I can't discuss myself > the gender biases of the other cultures. I'd like to know your ideas about > them, particularly the Traladrans (patriarchal? Karameikans, being Thyatian, > are definitely so), the Azcans and Oltecs, the Jennites, the Northerners, > the hin, the dwarves, the humanoids, the Makai (Ierendi), the Minrothadders, > the peoples of the Savage Coast, and the rest of the people of Mystara. > Dwarves, like many demihumans, have an equalitarian society. In fact, Clanhead are mostly married couples (the only exceptions being widows/ers). Predominance between husband and wife is a matter of charisma and intelligence (for example, the best orator becomes Senator for the family). Humanoids follow the law of the jungle: the strongest rules. The Queen of High Gobliny is dominant over his cowardly husband, while most other leaders are male, probably because they tend to be physically more powerful. Peoples of the Savage Coast: Savage Baronies: variable, with the enlightened baronies harboring less bias, and Narvaez being the most sexist. Robrenn: equal status, but women are higher ranking as druids, while nobility and heirlooms tend to go to male children. Eusdria: there are little or no prejudices, probably due to elven and dwarven influence. Bellayne: all traditional bellaynish immortals are female, and the foreign Kagyar has following among "masculine male rakasta with an axe to grind against the high-brow, stuffy, Bellaynish philosophic establishment". Renardie: I don't have a clue on the Lupins. Nothing canonical, at least. Shazak/Ator/Cay: there doesn't seem to be any difference based on gender here. Herath: much like Glantri or Alphatia; importance is measured by magical prowess. Wallara: being asexual creatures, they don't understand those problems. Enduks/Eears: much like KW elves. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:05:12 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [OT] Weekday Names (was: Re: Thib) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: > > thibault sarlat wrote: > > Ps: as a side note i would like to know the origin of the name of the > > week in english. > Tuesday -- Teiu's Day > (another Scandinavian God, can't remember much else about it though, and I may > have spelled it incorrectly) > Tyr, the one-handed god of justice. Coming back to Mystara, he is Tiuz in Eusdria (who in turn is Ilsundal). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:06:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly wrote: > > At the end of this entire post, I am still not sure what you mean by "gender > bias". > Gender-based prejudice, aka sexism. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:03:57 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings to all My thanks to all who pointed out my shouting faux pas. As a new user of computers and the net my manners may oftimes seem barbaric. It is purely unintentional I assure you. I have recently joined a Night Below campaign that our DM has set in Mystara.Can anyone point me toward info that will tell me the differences in spellcasting in Mystara as compared to other D&D worlds. Our DM is using 2E rules with additions from the Player's Option books. She is currently arranging what info she has so as not to give me any DM only info. thanx kevin Oh yeah,bumper sticker off the same truck from my last quote: Happiness is a belt-fed weapon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:26:32 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kevin wyton wrote: > > I have recently joined a Night Below campaign that our DM has set in > Mystara.Can anyone point me toward info that will tell me the differences in > spellcasting in Mystara as compared to other D&D worlds. Our DM is using 2E > rules with additions from the Player's Option books. She is currently > arranging what info she has so as not to give me any DM only info. Spellcasting differences largely depend upon how you want to run the campaign. To be honest, most of the straight regular spells out of the Player's Handbook and various extra sources would probably work fine. The only thing I'd change is either don't use material components or take them as guidelines rather than hard rules. The are three good reasons for this: 1) OD&D, which is where Mystara originated, didn't have material components in the first place and didn't take them into account. 2) Most of the spell components were lifted up from 1st Edition, which means some don't make sense now, or may be geared more towards Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. A good example is the 1st level wizard spell Armor, which uses a piece of cured leather blessed by a priest. (They changed the protection rating from AC8 to AC6 in 2nd Edition, but failed to note the reason why it used leather is because leather gives AC8.) In the Known World the major magical nation Glantri actually executed clerics, so it would be doubtful that the material component for a very useful 1st level spell would be dependent upon divine magic. 3) Material components complicate the game considerably. The Spells and Magic tome contains lists of the components and respective prices on market for them, but then your magic using players must consistently upkeep their supply, and many spells of a useful nature, such as identify, have absurdly ridiculous costs for relatively little return. If your DM is needing material, I started a very nice Player's Handout with in character information on the Known World. I never finished it, but I'd be happy to share it. It's in Word 97 format, though, and kind of large. If you want it let me know. (Send the message to me directly, not the list.) IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:32:01 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Finally the Thyatians know their place!! > Yes, everyone "in their place," easily pigeonholed so that one doesn't have to think too much or be modestly creative in their examples, etc is certainly the kind of simple, easily grasped gameworld we want to have. That way everything can be nice and neatly predictable, and people don't have to think too hard about anything - one can just reach for the same old canards and "paint by numbers", as it were, in what sort of examples they use. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:46:24 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hmm. This is most interesting as I (as the DM) is also playing through WotI at the moment. The PCs are currently helping defend Darokin City against The Master and his Desert Nomads (Spring 1006 AC). Naturally, the Darokin-Nomads conflict has little magic involved, although I had the Glantrians send them some aid! (Still, the PCs were *shocked* when I sprung the manscorpions on them on the battlefield ). > >There are a few other things I want to comment on, though. First, you describe the Alphatian tactics correctly >IMO, but keep in mind that the Alphatians were very efficient during the war - even though they were forced to >use conventional tactics after the destruction of most of their Skyship Navy at Aasla. The efficiency and >dedication of the Alphatians were one of the major surprises of the war, because normally they were pretty >bad at this sort of thing (the Immortal Alphatia's encouragement of the war had something to do with this >IMO). By the same notion, the Thyatians were surprisingly bad at their usual strengths during the early parts of >the war, owing to the efforts of Valerias in Thyatis City. These things are important to keep in mind, since they >are essential reason why things went the way they did - I don't think the Alphatians would ever have come as >far as they did under normal circumstances (and I say that as an Alphatiaphile), since their lack of interest >and inability to commit what's required in a full-scale war is one of the characteristics of the Alphatians - that, >IMO, is a big reason why they were driven back in 959 AC, even though they had already advanced as far as >Thyatis City! It seems to me its not that the Alphatians did really well, it was more a case of the Thyatians doing really badly. Also, if you look at the timeline, a couple of years go by of fighting on the Isle of Dawn without anything major actually happening. In the end Eriadna breaks the deadlock via diplomacy at Helskir. Presumably both empires are firmly locked into battle during this time, so what is actually going on? I presume nothing, ie stalemate. Given the ineptitude of the Thyatian high command, World War 1 seemed even more appropriate... I assume that Helen Lediamedes managed to corrupt the high command, but would find corrupting 76,000 legionaries, all being watched over by the Thyatian supporting Immortals (and there are more of them than Valerias), somewhat harder. And therefore I assume that at a tactical level the Thyatian army isn't really affected by this. The effect Valerias had was on the higher ranks, say from brigadier equivalent on up. So while the individual soldiers performed well enough, the commanders were not up to task of exploiting the opportunities when they arose. Fortunately for them, neither were the Alphatian commanders, who were busy getting stoned on zzonga in some bunker somewhere. (Keep in mind that Valerias' tactic to disable the Thyatian officers was by turning them into zzonga addicts - the Alphies are all zzonga addicts already, so they can hardly be considered "brilliant commanders". Its just that under normal circumstances the Thyatian quality matches the Alphatian magic. Take away the quality and they are in trouble). As the war grinds on, the Alphatian troops, peasant levies though they may be, gradually get more experienced. And so do their commanders. While the Thyatians also pick up in terms of quality, as the Alphatian foot troops begin to gain parity in quality the Thyatians one advantage has been lost to them, and so they start being pushed back. But the key break was Helskir, which I assume allowed the Alphies to rapidly flank the Thyatian line and start rolling it up. IMC the War of Wrath is something terrible. Not a typical AD&D fantasy battle. This isn't a battle of Good versus Evil here, noble Minas Tirith holding off the dark hordes of Sauron or anything like that. This is nothing short of brutality, caused by the actions of somewhat irresponsible and distant Immortals. The point is, the PCs (under Rheddrians guidance) are attempting to limit the damage the Immortals do, and try and put a stop to it. And therefore, to ram home just how terrible the war is, the actual battles are nothing short of bloody carnage, for both sides. Even when Alphatia starts pushing Thyatis back, they have to pay for every yard of ground they gain with the blood of their soldiers (it says in the WotI book something to this effect). And meanwhile in Greater Alphatia, where the war of attrition is starting to bite, protests start up calling for an end to the slaughter... Welcome to a Great War! Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:01:01 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Carolleti said a week or so ago, "It's an RPG, but does it have to be stupid"? That just struck me as funny (especially in context). Which brings up some questions I have about how Role Playing has evolved, thematically, over time. 1) The tradition used to be, evolved out of things like the "Conan" books & comics, that the heros were "fighters", sword vs sorcery types. The plucky guy with nothing more than his sword and his wits against the dark sorceries of Thoth Amon. If there were "good" wizards on the side of the hero (Gandalf types), they weren't as useful - certainly not against the main Wizards, who had to be defeated by the hero(s) with far less magic than the Sauron-types had access to. Then something changed: now the "kindly mage" (steriotypical example=Elminster, but there are Mystaran equivilents. I.E. Haldemar) is usually the more admired type, while the villians are often more sword-oriented (sure, Haldemar's typical foils, the HKs, had their priestly magic - but they were "Knights" vs. Haldemar's Sorcery). Mages are now unarguably the most popular character class (just a quick look at Stan's site, with the volume of new Wizard spells, decriptions of Mages or mage-oriented countries, etc, predominates. Counter-examples are usually the work of one person, I.E. B.H.s stuff on the HKs, compaired to the multiple contributors to Glantri-related materiel or Alphatia). Which segues into my next question: 2) It used to be that the powerful nations & organizations were depicted as being the villianous ones (Alphatia and to some extent Thyatis in the modules, like Mordor in the Ring saga) - the "heroic" ones were the smaller ones which were clearly less powerful (not having as much magic ot troops) - the underdog vs the overdog; "heroic" was overcoming difficulties and threats, against the odds. Now the favored nations & groups are most often the powerful ones: in Faerun, the Harpers & the good nations are almost invariably clearly superior to their much weaker and less competent opponents. A similar situation has developed in Mystara, where the clearly most powerful nation is now in the role of the "benign" policeman. Karameikos got built up to great power status through the PWAs, clearly to satisfy fans IMO; thus no longer is it the case where heroism is in part defined as overcoming the odds to win, but it's a matter of applying superior force against inferior (and generally incompetent) opponents. How did this happen? Why do people seem to prefer it? (Jens, you might be able to help answer this one for me)? 3) Alignment - back when the game was created, Lawful was portrayed as closer to good than Chaotic. When the system of nine alignments (the AD&D system) was created, Lawful Good was generally portrayed as "the best of the best" - PCs, since they sometimes needed to be flexable and couldn't always adhere to the stringent demands of LG - were often CG (or NG), but the general "hierarchy" of Alignments went almost in order from LG - NG - CG - LN - N - CN - LE - NE - CE: the worst of the worst were Chaotic Evil. In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do not appear in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by now things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" (Harmonium compaired to Sensates in Plainscape being the clearest example of this role-reversal, but by no means the only one). What caused this change? Is it in part related to my questions #1 & #2 above? Anyhow, I just find it curious - I myself have gone for some of this (my favorite character is a Wizard for example). I just want to know what people think about how and why this happened, and if in their opinion these are positives change good for gaming or not. Also, conversely, people deride "munchkin" gaming - how does this fit into preferences for more powerful nations and character classes (I.E. the popularity of exceptionally powerful Wizards, and the concentration on how easily they can dominate and defeat non-spellcasters, including entire armies)? Is there a disconect there? Anyhow - these questions are meant seriously, I'd like to spark a debate about them, because I myself am a bit puzzled about how things evolved from where they were to where they are, which is in some cases (the questions above) a reversal of previous RPG & fantasy ("Sword & Sorcery") tradition. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:46:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's another way of saying it. But I still don't understand how it is being applied. ----- Original Message ----- From: Agathokles To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Gender Biases in Mystara > jdaly wrote: > > > > At the end of this entire post, I am still not sure what you mean by "gender > > bias". > > > Gender-based prejudice, aka sexism. > > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:48:29 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Comments: To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > 1) The tradition used to be, evolved out of things like the "Conan" books & > comics, that the heros were "fighters", sword vs sorcery types. The plucky > guy with nothing more than his sword and his wits against the dark > sorceries of Thoth Amon. If there were "good" wizards on the side of the > hero (Gandalf types), they weren't as useful - certainly not against the > main Wizards, who had to be defeated by the hero(s) with far less magic > than the Sauron-types had access to. A lot of RPG came from literary sources to be sure. Fafrid and the Grey Mouser, Fritz Lieber's creations, sort of established the idea of out of work adventurers. Lieber wrote during the Great Depression years, and his works sort of reflect that state of living. Tolkien established the idea of ancient power and ancient evils that must be fought in modern times, and just the sheer grandness of fantasy. Conan was more earthy and simple, but generally again established the idea of the adventurer. Narnia established the idea of magic by association and a majestic (if not slightly controversial) idea of a fantasy deity. > Then something changed: now the "kindly mage" (steriotypical > example=Elminster, but there are Mystaran equivilents. I.E. Haldemar) is > usually the more admired type, while the villians are often more > sword-oriented (sure, Haldemar's typical foils, the HKs, had their priestly > magic - but they were "Knights" vs. Haldemar's Sorcery). Likely it has to do with your argument below: Mages are the most popular class, and as a result the literature and materials have shifted to focus upon them. I don't like this myself, as I favor warrior classes. It's due in part to how AD&D balanced out, mages are weak at low levels, and essentially the most powerful class at the high levels. Most CRPG systems reflect this as well, consider the many MUD's where only mages can become 'creators'. It's a reflection on a large part of how the players of magic-users tend to be the most cerebral, the class does require them to think more. (Spell choices, tactics, and whatnot. Most mages just can't barge in and attack, they lack the strength and attack skills to do so.) > Mages are now unarguably the most popular character class (just a quick> look at Stan's site, with the volume of new Wizard spells, decriptions of Mages or mage-oriented countries, etc, predominates. Counter-examples are > usually the work of one person, I.E. B.H.s stuff on the HKs, compaired to > the multiple contributors to Glantri-related materiel or Alphatia). Which > segues into my next question: Exactly. Magic systems are the most diverse in any RPG, and as a result the class gets a lot of attention. It's a large part of why I got tired of online gaming, as if you weren't a mage you basically were a walking corpse, because the magic class could do everything. > 2) It used to be that the powerful nations & organizations were depicted as > being the villianous ones (Alphatia and to some extent Thyatis in the > modules, like Mordor in the Ring saga) - the "heroic" ones were the smaller > ones which were clearly less powerful (not having as much magic ot troops) > - the underdog vs the overdog; "heroic" was overcoming difficulties and > threats, against the odds. Hm... are you referring to old D&D modules? The one that jumps into mind is CM1: Test of the Warlords, where Alphatia are the 'good guys' and Thyatis the 'bad guys'. Not exactly an even battle on the bad guy's side. But I would agree that most of the best adventures have the players 'fighting uphill in a rainstorm'. > Now the favored nations & groups are most often the powerful ones: in > Faerun, the Harpers & the good nations are almost invariably clearly > superior to their much weaker and less competent opponents. A similar > situation has developed in Mystara, where the clearly most powerful nation > is now in the role of the "benign" policeman. Karameikos got built up to > great power status through the PWAs, clearly to satisfy fans IMO; thus no > longer is it the case where heroism is in part defined as overcoming the > odds to win, but it's a matter of applying superior force against inferior > (and generally incompetent) opponents. I'm not sure what you mean with this. Karameikos is clearly more 'unified' and has gained strength since it's incarnation, but it's not utopia. I think a large number of the changes were in part to make it a more interesting and attractive place to run campaigns. As for Alphatia, I think their removal to the Hollow World was more to take a clearly overpowered nation out of the picture. (I've seen far worse, such as the Nethiril empire in Faerun, but Alphatia's still pretty obnoxious.) > In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also > so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and > Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest > version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the > same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is > usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") > At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do not appear in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by now things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free > spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often > portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" > (Harmonium compaired to Sensates in Plainscape being the clearest example > of this role-reversal, but by no means the only one). I think this is more a reflection of the aging alignment system than anything else. The alignment system was merely created as a category system by which you could classify beings in the game so as to know whether certain spells could affect them. (Such as protection from evil.) The two-tier system introduced in AD&D merely asks the question "Does this person feel law and society come before or after the individual?. Good and evil are far more difficult to define, though. Would a Lawful Neutral person be breaking alignment by forcing his beliefs on others? Would a Chaotic Evil person be breaking alignment by giving some aid to someone, just because he wanted to? Since AD&D came out there's been a lot of alterations and variations on these ideas, White Wolf in particular has expanded the system beyond simple forms. Supposely 3rd Edition will address this and create a better system. But the idea here is that there's plenty of room even within these nine alignments for interpretation. > Anyhow, I just find it curious - I myself have gone for some of this (my > favorite character is a Wizard for example). I just want to know what > people think about how and why this happened, and if in their opinion these > are positives change good for gaming or not. Well, I dislike the focus on wizards, but what can I do? I just make sure I stick to systems where the non-magic using classes are not discriminated against. AD&D 2nd Edition did a good job on this, warriors kick ass and take names compared to wizards. I am looking forward to 3rd Edition though, where I can finally play my fighter/mage/shaman... *rubs hands in anticipation* > Also, conversely, people deride "munchkin" gaming - how does this fit into > preferences for more powerful nations and character classes (I.E. the > popularity of exceptionally powerful Wizards, and the concentration on how > easily they can dominate and defeat non-spellcasters, including entire > armies)? Is there a disconect there? Well, I actually don't have to worry about it, because nobody in my Savage Coast AD&D campaign is playing a magic-user. (Or a priest, for that matter.) But I think a part of the problem is the fact that fantasy and the real world don't quite mix. In fantasy literature wizards are either wise enough to know not to use magic irresponsibly, or weak enough they can't. But D&D shows that most players aren't quite so smart, and the rules let them go powermad. Online gaming shows the same process, only at a much more accelerated rate. If there's power to be had, it will be exploited and used. But if that were the case, why isn't the real world filled with guys who could build nuclear bombs? Simple, really. It's HARD. Most of these same guys who find it easy to play a mage and lay waste to an entire campaign give up trying to do anything reasonably difficult in the real world. Because fantasy is not a true reflection of reality, and if you really want something it takes a lot of hard work, dedication, and effort, not to mention money. So how to fix this in your campaign? I'd say myself that you'd want to make sure that mages are rare. They should have been in the first place. If the players want a magic heavy campaign, make sure they have to fight for every inch of ground they game. They should be facing opposition at every turn. No wizard would sell a potential competitor spells. Wizard enemies should be brutal and fiendishly clever. If they whine and cry about how it's hard enough to play a wizard as is with low HP and no armor, then they obviously didn't want it badly enough. If you want to talk about class inadequacies, let's discuss the thief. Now they're in a world of hurt. But that's another story... IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:49:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, you've left the realm of the real now. I don't know what you mean by "Gallant". Bards typically are a pseudo Celtic bard, having both the wandering minstrel as well as the teacher aspect. They do not compare to rakes at all. As far as the chocolate fireplace comment, I think you may be speaking of utility game-design-wise. Originally it sounded like you were saying the rake had no place in the setting. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Rakes and Swashbucklers > >You have to have the proper sense of what a rake is. Think of the Cavalier > >poets of the 17th century. Read some Robert Herrick... > > > > > OK, so its a bard. A Gallant, to be precise. I think the Gallant is > somewhat superior to the Rake as given because you can actually play a > gallant and have a purpose in an adventuring party. Whereas a Rake is like > a Guilder in Birthright - as much use as a chocolate fireplace in an > adventure. > > Cheers > > Rob > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:50:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:01:01 James Ruhland wrote: (snip) >1) The tradition used to be, evolved out of things like the "Conan" books & >comics, that the heros were "fighters", sword vs sorcery types. The plucky >guy with nothing more than his sword and his wits against the dark >sorceries of Thoth Amon. If there were "good" wizards on the side of the >hero (Gandalf types), they weren't as useful - certainly not against the >main Wizards, who had to be defeated by the hero(s) with far less magic >than the Sauron-types had access to. > Then something changed: now the "kindly mage" (steriotypical >example=Elminster, but there are Mystaran equivilents. I.E. Haldemar) is >usually the more admired type, while the villians are often more >sword-oriented (sure, Haldemar's typical foils, the HKs, had their priestly >magic - but they were "Knights" vs. Haldemar's Sorcery). > Mages are now unarguably the most popular character class (just a quick >look at Stan's site, with the volume of new Wizard spells, decriptions of >Mages or mage-oriented countries, etc, predominates. Counter-examples are >usually the work of one person, I.E. B.H.s stuff on the HKs, compaired to >the multiple contributors to Glantri-related materiel or Alphatia). Which >segues into my next question: Well, I suppose there are a number of reasons. If you look at the Conan-stories, then all wizards are clearly evil villains who should be killed as soon as possible. Wizards used to be considered that way, I guess, because their powers were strange and alien, and thus feared. However, fantasy tradition has changed that perception. You can take the Haldemar/Elminster/Raistlin examples, but we had Gandalf well before that, and *don't* forget Merlin - he might have changed some perceptions as well (particularly since he is clearly opposed to the evil sorceress Morgaine Le Fay), especially in movies like John Boorman's 'Excalibur'. Also, as more information became available about wizards, naturally more people wanted to play them in RPGs. I guess a reason why there are 'volumes of new wizards spells' on Stan's site (I wrote a few myself BTW) is more because we need spells to define wizards, than it's because people have stopped playing warriors - I know many players who would choose warriors every time! The tradition may have shifted, but I suppose it is merely because people stopped seeing wizards as 'all evil'. This IMO has, to some extent at least, grown out of people's perception that nothing is 'all black' or 'all white'. Still, that's just the tradition now - in a few years I suppose people might be fed up with wizards and they'll suddenly start playing all thieves or warriors, or whatever. >2) It used to be that the powerful nations & organizations were depicted as >being the villianous ones (Alphatia and to some extent Thyatis in the >modules, like Mordor in the Ring saga) - the "heroic" ones were the smaller >ones which were clearly less powerful (not having as much magic ot troops) >- the underdog vs the overdog; "heroic" was overcoming difficulties and >threats, against the odds. > Now the favored nations & groups are most often the powerful ones: in >Faerun, the Harpers & the good nations are almost invariably clearly >superior to their much weaker and less competent opponents. A similar >situation has developed in Mystara, where the clearly most powerful nation >is now in the role of the "benign" policeman. Karameikos got built up to >great power status through the PWAs, clearly to satisfy fans IMO; thus no >longer is it the case where heroism is in part defined as overcoming the >odds to win, but it's a matter of applying superior force against inferior >(and generally incompetent) opponents. > How did this happen? Why do people seem to prefer it? (Jens, you might be >able to help answer this one for me)? I suppose one reason might be that people don't like to see a static and unchanging world (it's boring!). As a DM I might have been reluctant to let them defeat the Black Eagle and Bargle because they were such important campaign villains, but eventually they must bite the dust, or else the players will, correctly, start to see them as the invulnerable pawns of evil gods (or the DM himself). Sure, if things are changed, they won't always be to the liking of everybody (you hated what happened to Thyatis, and I hated what happened to the Golden Khan recently (he should have become a much greater threat before being killed IMO), for example), but the campaign still needs to change to move forward. However, we still need good campaign villains, and I think we are starting to run low on our supplies of them, so I guess you have a point there :) >3) Alignment - back when the game was created, Lawful was portrayed as >closer to good than Chaotic. When the system of nine alignments (the AD&D >system) was created, Lawful Good was generally portrayed as "the best of >the best" - PCs, since they sometimes needed to be flexable and couldn't >always adhere to the stringent demands of LG - were often CG (or NG), but >the general "hierarchy" of Alignments went almost in order from LG - NG - >CG - LN - N - CN - LE - NE - CE: the worst of the worst were Chaotic Evil. > In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also >so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and >Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest >version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the >same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is >usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") > At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do not appear >in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by now >things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free >spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often >portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" >(Harmonium compaired to Sensates in Plainscape being the clearest example >of this role-reversal, but by no means the only one). > What caused this change? Is it in part related to my questions #1 & #2 >above? I think the only problem here is AD&D. They started to develop the alignment system, and realized that they needed 'good' and 'evil' too. Only they kept lawful and chaotic, but changed their meaning - no problem if you play AD&D, but frustrating as h*** if you used the OD&D alignments. I doubt there is much more to it than that. Still, I agree with you on the 'against LG' thing: I don't see why so many people hate that alignment. I suppose it's because paladins are LG and being a paladin is restrictive, so people reason that being LG no matter what class would be just as restrictive. I've had discussions with people on this very subject, and they are always shocked when I tell while being a LG paladin *is* restrictive, being LG in another class is not, because all the 'restrictions' for paladins are listed under their class description, not under the LG description. However, the 'all-heroic' type is not so common anymore - just ask people who they like best: Luke Skywalker or Han Solo? Most people, if not all, will say 'Han Solo' every time (myself being a notable exception, I suppose). Thus, I guess most of them also prefer to play the 'gray and reluctant hero' than the 'all-heroic and epic hero' (though I admit that my own Alphatian mage was CG, it was mostly because LG wouldn't fit. Still, I really like the way Jeff Grubb described the paladin Priam Agrivar in the Forgotten Realms comic book - if I were to play *any* warrior, I would choose paladin (if I could) and play him *just* that way). >Anyhow, I just find it curious - I myself have gone for some of this (my >favorite character is a Wizard for example). I just want to know what >people think about how and why this happened, and if in their opinion these >are positives change good for gaming or not. 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' as the saying goes - whether it's good or bad is an acquired taste, I think. IMO the recent changes to Mystara aren't really bad at all - except, perhaps, that we are running a bit low on good campaign villains (they've all been defeated or gone into some form of hiding from what I can tell). >Also, conversely, people deride "munchkin" gaming - how does this fit into >preferences for more powerful nations and character classes (I.E. the >popularity of exceptionally powerful Wizards, and the concentration on how >easily they can dominate and defeat non-spellcasters, including entire >armies)? Is there a disconect there? I'm not sure what you mean, but I would say that those 'exceptionally powerful wizards' serve the purpose of showing the players just how powerful their PCs could become some day (wizards do this best, because, IMO, they are clearly the most powerful class at higher levels, and should be!) I hope somebody found my comments just a bit useful (especially James Ruhland). - Jens Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:11:52 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ah, you've left the realm of the real now. I don't know what you mean by >"Gallant". Bards typically are a pseudo Celtic bard, having both the >wandering minstrel as well as the teacher aspect. They do not compare to >rakes at all. Heh. Gallants are really cool. They are a bard kit, but they arent Celtic in origin. They are "romantic paladins". Sort of. They can woo damsels with their poetry, among other things. If defending True Love they can hang on in combat for a couple of rounds after they are put on 0hp before they die. And when they do die, they dont just fall over dead, they recite a final tragic poem before they expire. Gotta love em :) AD&D. Bards in AD&D aren't just Celtic types. >As far as the chocolate fireplace comment, I think you may be speaking of >utility game-design-wise. Originally it sounded like you were saying the >rake had no place in the setting. Oh no, I never meant a rake had no place in the setting. Far from it (I'm a major swashbuckler fan!). I just meant that the rake class, as is given, is simply worthless, and I wouldn't use it personally. Which is what the original post was about, I think! If it wasn't, ignore me, I got the wrong end of the stick as usual. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:36:56 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > 1) The tradition used to be, evolved out of things like the "Conan" books & > > comics, that the heros were "fighters", sword vs sorcery types. The plucky > > guy with nothing more than his sword and his wits against the dark > > sorceries of Thoth Amon > many MUD's where only mages can become 'creators'. It's a reflection on a large > part of how the players of magic-users tend to be the most cerebral, the class > does require them to think more. (Spell choices, tactics, and whatnot. Most > mages just can't barge in and attack, they lack the strength and attack skills > to do so.) > Hmmmn. . .but if the guys who play mages are the more cerebral types, then shouldn't they "handicap" themselves (see, playing any other class has become a "handicap"), and play one of the other classes? Fighters or Thieves, for example? Then you can't reach for the easy solution of the spell to solve this or that problem, you're left with (as I mentioned above) nothing but your sword arm and your wits - to solve your problem by ingenuity rather than by a list of spells ("Well, the door is locked, so to get through we will cast Knock.") A list of spells works for me because I'm fundimentally uncreative and unoriginal in my thinking - I can read over the spells and figure out how they can be used (conversely, I blow at thinking up new spells, but I do manage to use ones that are published or created by others). But true ingenuity? I'd think those who are truely ingenious would get more of a challenge, and have more fun, playing a fighter or thief. But you're right that in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm just curious as to why. > > Exactly. Magic systems are the most diverse in any RPG, and as a result the > class gets a lot of attention. It's a large part of why I got tired of online > gaming, as if you weren't a mage you basically were a walking corpse, because > the magic class could do everything. > Right. What I'll say next isn't really part of my questions, but another observation: originally the classes were intended to be roughly equally important to the success of a well-rounded Adventuring party. We can argue as to whether they were all equally play-balanced or not, but that isn't the point. Now the overwhelming concentration is on spellcasters, specifically mages: not only in new published materiels (which often contain a plethora not only of spells, but new options for wizards, etc), but in fan materiel. I'd say that at this point once a Wizard reaches the low-middling levels (4th-5th), they become the focus of attention. Long term? Long term the character classes are, IMO, at the point where everyone is the Wizard's auxilliary or spell fodder ("walking corpse", because at this point the mage class has few limitations, and almost none that can't be overcome with the right aray of spells). We are at the point where people can argue that this or that individual mage can defeat entire armies solo - no one would make the same argument for any other character class, but it appears all the time with respect to Wizards. > > Hm... are you referring to old D&D modules? The one that jumps into mind is CM1: > Test of the Warlords, where Alphatia are the 'good guys' and Thyatis the 'bad > guys'. Not exactly an even battle on the bad guy's side. But I would agree that > most of the best adventures have the players 'fighting uphill in a rainstorm'. > "Test of the Warlords" portrayed *Norwold*, not nessissarily Alphatia, as the "good guys." Alphatia was indiferent at best to the fate of the young Norwold, which had to face the Thyatian attacks alone. In M2, "Vengeance of Alphaks" the Empires were portrayed equally as the opponents - the "goal" of PCs aligned with Ericall (as the module generally assumed they would be, though they could make other choices) was to defend against the machinations of both Empires. Other modules set in Norwold (I.E. "Death's Ride" refered to earlier this week) portrayed Alphatians in a bad light (that "Wazor" Wizard, which I think eventually evolved into "Wastoure" later by the designers). Norwold was the "pluckly little undeveloped kingdom that could," vs the "decadent Empires of Alphatia & Thyatis that sought to control Norwold's destiny for their own purposes." > > I'm not sure what you mean with this. Karameikos is clearly more 'unified' and > has gained strength since it's incarnation, but it's not utopia. I think a large > number of the changes were in part to make it a more interesting and attractive > place to run campaigns. > Which generally had to do with increasing it's power and decreasing the "threat level" in Norwold (the obvious "villian" was eliminated, the infamous School of Magic built - founded one month, students casting spells the next, and before the year was over developing a serious rivalry with Glantri's GSoM). > > As for Alphatia, I think their removal to the Hollow > World was more to take a clearly overpowered nation out of the picture. (I've > seen far worse, such as the Nethiril empire in Faerun, but Alphatia's still > pretty obnoxious.) > Really? I'd argue that was done to give them a presence in the HW as well as on the Surface. Clearly not much changed on the Surface, but now they have hegemony over the HW as well. But we all know my opinion of them and I'd rather not turn this thread into another "Alphatia: perfectly suited to Rule the Whole World or not?" discussion. I *am* curious why these powerful nations have become the more popular ones while the "underdog" powers are distinctly less popular, but that's a general question (same might be asked of Glantri - is it popular because of its complex politics? For some people that's clearly the reason. Or is it popular because it's a Magocracy that people can hold the opinion that any one of their mages could have "easily, obviously" defeated the Ethengaran invasion force single handedly? For some people, the answer seems to be the latter.) "Weaker" areas are distinctly less popular, in the sense that they are less often discussed, on the list. > > and create a better system. But the idea here is that there's plenty of room > even within these nine alignments for interpretation. > I'd agree with the last statement (the one I didn't snip - the other stuff you mentioned I'm still thinking about) - but that doesn't mean people don't have their impressions of what the alignments are, and didn't and don't form opinions about them, and of their relative merits and demerits. They were open to interpretation before, but there was a general impression of them. They are as open to interpretation now, but impressions of them have clearly shifted in favor of Chaos and against Law. What I'm curious about is why did thatt happen? Anyone have any ideas? > > Well, I dislike the focus on wizards, but what can I do? I just make sure I > stick to systems where the non-magic using classes are not discriminated > against. AD&D 2nd Edition did a good job on this, warriors kick ass and take > names compared to wizards. > Did it? Perhaps it did at first, but I play 2nd Edition, and I know all the stuff that has come out for it, from "Combat & Tactics" through "Spells & Magic" - and if it could ever be said that the 2nd Edition did a good job of making each class equally valuable (or setting up a situation where warriors kicked ass compared to wizards), I don't think that can be said anymore. I know those who play mages who are on the list can rattle off fairly quickly a long littany of the protection magics they can use to prevent the "febble, ignorant, useless" Fighter from even scratching them - I know they can do that because such lists have been posted in the past. I do hope 3E restores effectiveness & game-balance to the classes, but I disagree with your assessment that 2E did well in that respect; at least not over time, as 2E evolved. > use magic irresponsibly, or weak enough they can't. But D&D shows that most > players aren't quite so smart, and the rules let them go powermad. Online gaming > shows the same process, only at a much more accelerated rate. If there's power > to be had, it will be exploited and used. > Well, I think those who play the way they do would say that it wouldn't be smart *not* to use every advantage they could, especially in online gaming where if they don't then they will be the victim of those who do (the "walking corpse" thing you mentioned above) - that's why in games that are unbalanced in favor of the spell users, I tend to play a spellcaster myself, and in more balanced games I'm more open to other alternatives and tend to not play Wizards as my primary class. Why handicap oneself, especially in multi-player games where if you do you'll only set yourself up as a quick victim? In online play especially it is the responsibility of the game's "host" or "designer" (MUD) or DM/GM (PBeM) to make sure that all classes are roughly equally playable, or folks will naturally gravitate to the one(s) that offer them the best chance of survival (much less success) in games. Why be PK'd by the inevitable uberman because you handicapped yourself by comparison? In PnP RPGs, IMO it's a bit different, since parties are supposed to be cooperative endevours (one hopes, and at least to some large extent), and PKing is less of a problem (well, PKing in PnP games is another topic - it obviously does happen). > > If you want to talk about class inadequacies, let's discuss the thief. Now > they're in a world of hurt. But that's another story... > Yah, true. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:54:40 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I suppose one reason might be that people don't like to see a static and unchanging world (it's boring!). As a DM I might have been reluctant to let them defeat the Black Eagle and Bargle because they were such important campaign villains, but eventually they must bite the dust, or else the players will, correctly, start to see them as the invulnerable pawns of evil gods (or the DM himself). Sure, if things are changed, they won't always be to the liking of everybody (you hated what happened to Thyatis, and I hated what happened to the Golden Khan recently (he should have become a much greater threat before being killed IMO), for example), but the campaign still needs to change to move forward.<< I unfortunately have to say that this answer is a non-sequiter to the question I asked. I asked, in effect, why people's preferences had changed from rooting for the underdog to bandwagoning onto the powerful, and you gave me an answer about change in the campaign world, not change in people's perceptions in which type of nations were most admirable (popular). Change in the campaign world is a different question, though we can of course talk about that, too. > However, we still need good campaign villains, and I think we are starting to run low > on our supplies of them, so I guess you have a point there :) > This happens because: 1) Powerful but ambiguous nations get transmogrified into benign ones, thus losing their value as potential villians and 2) Nations that start as "Benign" but medium/mediocre in power are almost invariably transformed over time into being more powerful, and alligned with other "goodly" nations and groups (Kara befrending Alphatia, WDL), thus making them more than able to handle their less competent and coordinated opponents (See point #3, below). 3) When the powerful nations are transmogrified and/or weaker "good" nations built up, their "foils" or "opponents" are transformed into incompetent "tomato can"/incompetent "Snidely Whiplash" nations that are quickly beaten up by the powerful and (now) benign ones, thus reducing/eliminating them as a serious threat. Thus the campaign world runs out of villians, except for a few that are kept around in a pathetic state so that the now unchallangable "good" ones can still have something to compair themselves favorably against (being morally more enlightened and infanitely more powerful/skilled than), for which see other threads. Anyhow, that is how a world runs out of "villians" - by eliminating the nuance & ambiguity in some popular nations, building up the power of good ones, and then using them to whip the "scapegoat" nations so they can demonstrate their "might and virtue" simoultaniously. That question is easy to answer, so I didn't ask it. > > Still, I agree with you on the 'against LG' thing: I don't see why so many people hate that alignment. I suppose it's because paladins are LG and being a paladin is restrictive, so people reason that being LG no matter what class would be just as restrictive. I've had discussions with people on this very subject, and they are always shocked when I tell while being a LG paladin *is* restrictive, being LG in another class is not, because all the 'restrictions' for paladins are listed under their class description, not under the LG description. > That could be part of it. I think there is a larger social dynamic in play here. > However, the 'all-heroic' type is not so common anymore - just ask people who they like best: Luke Skywalker or Han Solo? > True, but the "anti-hero" or "rogue with the heart of gold" architype was already well established when RPGs first came on the scene, but the "trueheart" types were still considered favorably for a long time, change comming only (as far as I can tell) over the last decade or a little more. > > I'm not sure what you mean, but I would say that those 'exceptionally powerful wizards' > serve the purpose of showing the players just how powerful their PCs could become some day > If and only if one plays a Wizard - one hardly ever sees examples of how other classes can become powerful some day, and certainly not to nearly the degree that the Wizard class can. Which does establish my point about the classes not being game-balanced anymore, if they ever truely were (but at least before it wasn't highlighted as sharply, with the imbalance being so great and virtually insurmountable). Anyhow, thanks for sharing your answers (thanks to IronWolf, too). More opinions (from anyone) welcomed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:49:51 +0000 Reply-To: bing@iccom.com Sender: Mystara Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Mike & Rebecca Harvey Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: <200001152203.RAA31054@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also > so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and > Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest > version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the > same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is > usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") It also says that explicitly in the Rules Cyclopedia, pp 10-11. Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:08:58 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It also says that explicitly in the Rules Cyclopedia, pp 10-11. > Ok, well we're going to have to get deep into the specific changes then. In my oldest remaining copy of the rules (I had an older version but it's long gone, having been "liberated" by "free spirited" chaotic types very long ago), under Chaos it says it is the belief that "everything happens by accident, and nothing can be predicted." This sentance is dropped in the RC version. In my oldest version it states "They cannot be trusted, and their behavior is hard to predict." In the RC version it states "They cannot always be trusted" - a clear softening. In the oldest version I still have the definition stops after saying "Chaotic behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'." The RC version adds the sentance "Each individual player must decide if his Chaotic character is closer to a mean, selfish, 'evil' personality or merely a happy-go-lucky, unpredictable personality." This is a clear change away from the definition that Chaos is akin to Evil (though only an intermediate step rather than a complete switch. The complete switch came later, and not so much within the rules themselves as in the atmosphere surrounding them - though this was part and parcel of that). Now in recent years there have been many posts on the list warning against equating Chaos with evil. . .though this was what the original rules clearly did. A broad step away from that, and Chaotic types IMO are far more likely to be found admirable at this point than Lawful types, where it is only a matter of alignment that is being compared ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:26:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: <3880F93D.3441ED6@ewa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Likely it has to do with your argument below: Mages are the most popular > class, and as a result the literature and materials have shifted to focus > upon them. Well, literature doesn't stick to D&D char types - most heroic types fit under each class somewhat (ex. Rand in Robert Jordan's books, Lloyd Alexander's interpretation of Gwydion, Rap in Dave Duncan's 8-book saga) with numerous non-magical chars prominent in various series (ex. Joram in the Darksword novels, Simon in Memory, Sorrw and Thorn, Taran in the Prydain novels) taking center stage. There are few D&D-type mages in starring roles in fantasy, even at this present time, IMO. > balanced out, mages are weak at low levels, and essentially the most powerful > class at the high levels. Most CRPG systems reflect this as well AD&D is largely responsible for this shift, asyou point out - in OD&D a 36th level fighter, 16th level mystic, 36th level cleric and 36th level mage are all basically as powerful. It depends on the CRPG for the latter comment - Exile favors fighter-types, with mages at end game solely providing the major blessing and anti-magic clouds and like spells to "boost" up the warrior's edge - a balanced party of course is best. Angband and its variants are almost impossible to win relying upon offensive magic. Moria probably makes priests and druids easiest, then mages. Might and Magic II required a balanced party. Same with Bard's Tale. Off-hand , I can't think of any where the mage is the de facto best. > part of how the players of magic-users tend to be the most cerebral, the class > does require them to think more. (Spell choices, tactics, and whatnot. Most > mages just can't barge in and attack, they lack the strength and attack skills > to do so.) In hack-n-slash campaigns, fireball, fireball, fireball is about all you see in terms of tactics. I think clerics and thieves both necessitate more tactical usage, as do many of the alternative races in products like the PC line. > Hm... are you referring to old D&D modules? The one that jumps into mind is CM1: > Test of the Warlords, where Alphatia are the 'good guys' and Thyatis the 'bad > guys'. Not exactly an even battle on the bad guy's side. James already corrected this in that both are portrayed as "bad guys" to some extent, with Norworld being the "good guys" - later Norworld products built on this theme. > place to run campaigns. As for Alphatia, I think their removal to the Hollow > World was more to take a clearly overpowered nation out of the picture. But in the early products, Alphatia wasn't overpowered. It was even with Thyatis as the "big" empires and neither was clearly far ahead of the secondary powers like Ylaurum, Rockhome, Ethengar, Glantri, etc. If it hadn't been beefed up later, it wouldn't have needed to be moved - similarly, if Thyatis had been kept at the same level, no change would be required. > Well, I actually don't have to worry about it, because nobody in my Savage Coast > AD&D campaign is playing a magic-user. (Or a priest, for that matter.) This is one nice thing I liked about the HW setting - it reduces the amount of magic and forces players to think more when conducting combat, and also makes them treat magic more like the luxury it is. > quite mix. In fantasy literature wizards are either wise enough to know not to > use magic irresponsibly, or weak enough they can't. You must have missed all those irresponsible, powerful, evil wizards that keep cropping up as cardboard cliches. > shows the same process, only at a much more accelerated rate. I don't think MUSHes are nearly as bad in this regard as MUDs. I've seen numerous ones mix high-level power chars and low-power chars together very effectively. > If you want to talk about class inadequacies, let's discuss the thief. Now > they're in a world of hurt. But that's another story... Halflings anyone? Gremlins? I agree on the thieves - definitely not a munchkin's class...rakes do them one better even. - Mischa Why, oh why, in a land of plenty Some just have to make due? - Harry Connick Jr., "A Blessing and a Curse" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:36:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > How did this happen? Why do people seem to prefer it? (Jens, you might be > >able to help answer this one for me)? > > I suppose one reason might be that people don't like to see a static and > unchanging world (it's boring!). I like static worlds for the simple purpose that they let them the campaign dictate what's going to happen - PCs can play as large a role as NPCs - you also don't need to buy another 20 products with each earth-breaking event just to stick to canon, which is another plus. > they won't always be to the liking of everybody (you hated what happened > to Thyatis, and I hated what happened to the Golden Khan recently (he > should have become a much greater threat before being killed IMO), for > example), but the campaign still needs to change to move forward. The campaign does. The setting does not need to. It still could use plenty of expansion and detailing before we run out of space. > > At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do not appear > >in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by now > >things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free > >spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often > >portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" This isn't a change at all to me. Individualists and free spirits are generally thought of as selfish and evil, while moralists are well, moral. Most folks hopefully think William Jennings Bryan and Dorothy Day were better people than Al Capone and O.J. Simpson. Only a libertarian mentalility finds problems with those who want to legislate morality and only the same mindset would praise those who don't see the need for laws and rules. - Mischa Why, oh why, in a land of plenty Some just have to make due? - Harry Connick Jr., "A Blessing and a Curse" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:04:01 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics (pt.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of the things that is most intriguing about Glantri is the political system introduced in Gazetteer 3. Not only does it provide a useful and easy means of calculating how easy (or difficult) it would be for legislation in that nation to pass, but the background provided in that module strongly indicates that the political alliances are always in flux, allowing for great roleplay possibilities. That being said, I've been planning on releasing this for some time (I was just awaiting the release of the 1016 almanac, so as not to spoil anything). Following is the first part of the (what I hope to be ongoing) attempt to depict the current state of affairs in Glantrian politics. Thus, here are the House standings as of Kaldmont 28, 1015 AC: Glantri Nobles as of 1015 AC Type(Voting Power) Dominion Ruler House Allegiance Notes Baronies (4 points) Adlerturm Franz Lowenroth House of Ritterburg Celedyl Qenildor Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn 1 Egorn Gerrid Rientha House of Kern 2, 22 Igorov Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany House of Igorov Kern Harald Haaskinz House of Kern 3, 35 Kutchevski Piotr-Grygory Timenko House of Igorov Mariksen Sergei Wutyla House of Skullhorn 4, 23 Oxhill Pieter Vandehaar House of Linden Palatinsk Youri Ivanov House of Igorov Pavlova Natacha Datchenka House of Igorov Uigmuir Angus McDuff House of Crownguard 5, 24 Vladimirov Szasza Markovitch House of Igorov Ylourgne Vincienzo di Randazzi House of Malinbois 6, 25 Viscounties (5 points) Bergen Mirn Krollnar House of Linden 7 Blackstone Kol XIV House of Blackstone 8, 29 Blofeld Rolf von Graustein House of Ritterburg Castelbianco Isabella de Montebello Clan of Alhambra 9 Crownguard Brannart McGregor House of Crownguard Fausseflammes Gilles Grenier House of Sylaire Linden Juliana Vlaardoen House of Linden 10 Malinbois Malachie du Marais House of Malinbois 11, 34 Sirecchia Innocenti di Malapietra House of Fenswick 12, 26 Sylaire Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire 13, 32 Verrazano Griseo Fulvina House of Kern 27 Counties (6 points) Glenargyll Antonio di Tarento House of Kern 14, 28 High Sonden Sinaria Verlien House of Linden 15 Ritterburg Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Skullhorn Pass Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn 16, 33 Touraine Genevieve de Sephora House of Sylaire Marquessates (7 points) Alhambra Carnelia de Belcadiz y FedoriasClan of Alhambra Berrym Mariana Terlagand House of Ritterburg Dunvegan Alasdair McAllister House of Crownguard 17 Ellerovyn Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn 30 Satolas Fernando de Casanegra Clan of Alhambra Singhabad Lan-Syn Virayana House of Singhabad 18 Duchies (8 points) Fenswick Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick 19, 31 Hightower Eachainn McDougall House of Crownguard 20 Archduchies (9 points) Westheath John Beaumarys-Moorkroft House of Singhabad 21 Principalities (10 points) Aalban Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Belcadiz Carnelia de Belcadiz y FedoriasClan of Alhambra Berghdoven Juliana Vlaardoen House of Linden 10 Boldavia Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany House of Igorov Bramyra Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn 16, 33 Erewan Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn 30 Fenswick Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick 19, 31 Klantyre Brannart McGregor House of Crownguard Krondahar Lan-Syn Virayana House of Singhabad Morlay-Malinbois Malachie du Marais House of Malinbois 11, 33 New Kolland Kol XIV House of Blackstone 8, 29 Nouvelle Averoigne Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire 13, 32 Sablestone Harald Haaskinz House of Kern 3, 35 Charges Viceroy/Great Crater(1)Kol XIV House of Blackstone 8, 29 Viceroy/Huledain (1) Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn 30 Viceroy/Nordling (1) Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Viceroy/Monteleone (1)Carnelia de Belcadiz y FedoriasClan of Alhambra Viceroy/Tchernovodsk (1)Morphail Gorevitch-WoszlanyHouse of Igorov Treasurer/Council (2)Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick 19, 31 Chamberlain/Land (4) Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire 13, 32 Chancellor/Princes (6)Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn 16, 33 Supreme Judge/Council (8)Malachie du Marais House of Malinbois 11, 34 Grand Master/School (10)Harald Haaskinz House of Kern 3, 35 Voting Power Council Parliament Alhambra, Clan of 18 30 Blackstone, House of 16 16 Crownguard, House of 15 30 Ellerovyn, Clan of 18 22 Fenswick, House of 20 25 Igorov, House of 15 31 Kern, House of 24 43 Linden, House of 15 30 Malinbois, House of 23 27 Ritterburg, House of 17 33 Singhabad, House of 17 26 Skullhorn, House of 22 26 Sylaire, House of 19 30 Notes: 1 Qenildor Erewan is granted the Barony of Celedyl in 1015 AC. (MA 1015) 2 Gerrid Rientha is made Baron of Egorn in 1004 AC. (GN) 3 Harald of Haaskinz became Baron of Kern and Prince of Sablestone in 1004 AC. The House of Kern is established. (PC4) 4 Sergei Wutyla succeeds his brother Laszlo as Baron of Mariksen in 1012 AC. (G:KoM, GN) 5 Angus McClintock (born McDuff) is made Baron of Uigmuir in 1015 AC, when his heritage as the son of Lady Myra McDuff is revealed. The former Baroness had been living as a ghost for decades, awaiting the return of her lost son. (MA 1015). 6 Vincienzo di Randazzo is made Baron of Ylourgne in 1006 AC. (G:KoM, GN) 7 Mirn Krollnar succeeds his mother Rowena upon the latter's death in 1012 AC. (G:KoM) 8 Kol XIV becomes Viscount of Blackstone and Prince of New Kolland in 1011 AC. The House of Blackstone is established. (PWA 1011) 9 Isabella de Montebello becomes the Countess of Castelbianco in 1004 AC. (GN) 10 Juliana Vlaardoen gains her noble titles upon the deaths of her parents in 1008 AC. (G:KoM) 11 Malachie du Marais marries Diane de Moriamis in 1005 AC. Their dominions are joined and an act of enfoeffment turns the region into the Principality of Morlay-Malinbois. The Barony of Morlay is abolished, and the House of Malinbois is established. (PC4) 12 The Principality of Caurenze is destroyed by a meteor impact in 1006 AC. Innocenti is reduced to being merely the Viscount of Sirecchia. (WotI) 13 Isidore d'Ambreville is confirmed in her titles of Viscountess of Sylaire and Princess of Nouvelle Averoigne in 1011 AC. (PWA 1011) 14 Antonio di Tarento is elected Count of Glenargyll in 1004 AC. (GN) 15 Discovering Sinaria Verlien's complicity in the kidnapping of Ralindi Virayana, the House of Singhabad turns all of its considerable resources against her. She disappears shortly thereafter. Her eldest son, Pieter, handles affairs in her absence. He more or less openly supports the House of Linden. (G:KoM) 16 Urmahid Krinagar wins the title of Prince of Bramyra when that region is enfoeffed in 1003 AC. The House of Skullhorn is established. (PC4) 17 Alasdair McAllister is nominated Marquis of Dunvegan in 1004 AC. (GN) 18 Jherek Virayana dies during the war with Ethengar in 1015 AC, leaving his wife Lan-Syn to succeed him in his princely duties. (MA 1015) 19 Dolores Hillsbury succeeds her mother, Margaret, as Duchess of Fenswick in 1010 AC. An act of enfoeffment that same year turns Fenswick into a principality, with Dolores as Princess. The House of Fenswick is established. (PWA 1010) 20 Eachainn McDougall wins the title of Duke of Hightower in 1004 AC. (GN) 21 John Beaumarys-Moorkroft becomes the Archduke of Westheath in 1004 AC. (GN) 22 A close friend of Harald of Haaskinz, Gerrid naturally allies himself with the House of Kern. (G:KoM) 23 Sergei Wutyla formally allies himself with the House of Skullhorn in 1014 AC, after a chance meeting with Prince Urmahid Krinagar. Both men find common interests in the affairs and people of the Ethengar Khanates. Wutyla also finds Krinagar's political influence helpful in countering the acts of Prince Morphail. 24 Angus McDuff allies himself with the House of Kern. Prince Harald of Haaskinz is a colleague at the Great School of Magic. 25 Vincienzo di Randazzo immediately allies himself with the nearby House of Malinbois upon gaining his title as Baron of Ylourgne. (G:KoM) 26 Innocenti allies himself with the House of Fenswick in 1010 AC. (PWA 1010) 27 Upon the dissolution of the House of Sirecchia in 1006 AC, Griseo Fulvina allies himself with the influential House of Kern. (G:KoM) 28 Likewise, Antonio di Tarento allies himself with the House of Kern in 1006 AC. (G:KoM) 29 The position of Viceroyalty of the Great Crater is created, with Prince Kol as Viceroy, in either 1011 or 1012 AC. (G:KoM) 30 The town of Huledain was nearly destroyed in the meteor impact of 1006 AC. In 1010 AC, it is rebuilt as Fort Huledain, in an effort to curb the growing humanoid threat of the Great Crater. Princess Carlotina Erewan is awarded the title of Viceroy in a narrow decision between herself and Prince Brannart McGregor. (GC) 31 Dolores Hillsbury is awarded the title of Treasurer of the Council in 1010 AC. (GN) 32 Isidore d'Ambreville is nominated Chamberlain of the Land in 1011 AC. (PWA 1011) 33 Urmahid Krinagar gains the title of Chancellor the Princes following the death of the previous Chancellor, Prince Volospin Aendyr, in 1006 AC. (JA, GN) 34 With the death of Prince Jherek Virayana in 1015, Malachie du Marais is named Supreme Judge Pro-Tem, serving in this capacity until a formal election can be held. (MA 1016) 35 Harald of Haaskinz is appointed Grand Master of the Great School of Magic following the disappearance of Etienne d'Ambreville in 1009 AC. (PWA 1010) Sources: G:KoM- Glantri: Kingdom of Magic PWA #: Poor Wizard's Almanac series MA #: Mystaran Almanac net books GN: Glantrian Nobles v. 3 by Aleksei Andrievski GC: Great Crater Gazetteer by Andrew Theisen (Coming next- part II: Glantrian Nobles as of Kaldmont 28, 1016 AC) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:00:35 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics (pt. II) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here are the standings of the Houses of Glantri as of Kaldmont 28, 1016 AC: Dominions as of 1016 AC Type(Voting Power) Dominion Ruler House Allegiance Notes Baronies (4 points) Adlerturm Franz Lowenroth House of Ritterburg Celedyl Qenildor Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn Egorn Gerrid Rientha House of Kern Igorov Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany House of Igorov Kern Harald Haaskinz House of Kern Kutchevski Piotr-Grygory Timenko House of Igorov Mariksen Sergei Wutyla House of Skullhorn Oxhill Pieter Vandehaar House of Fenswick 1 Palatinsk Youri Ivanov House of Igorov Pavlova Natacha Datchenka House of Igorov Uigmuir Angus McDuff House of Kern Vladimirov Szasza Markovitch House of Igorov Ylourgne Vincienzo di Randazzi House of Malinbois Viscounties (5 points) Bergen Mirn Krollnar House of Linden Blackstone Kol XIV House of Blackstone Blofeld Rolf von Graustein House of Ritterburg Castelbianco Isabella de Montebello Clan of Alhambra Crownguard Angus McGregor House of Crownguard 2 Fausseflammes Gilles Grenier House of Sylaire Linden Juliana Vlaardoen House of Linden Malinbois Malachie du Marais House of Malinbois Sirecchia Innocenti di Malapietra House of Fenswick Sylaire Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire Verrazano Griseo Fulvina House of Igorov 3 Counties (6 points) Glenargyll Antonio di Tarento House of Fenswick 4 High Sonden Pieter Verlien House of Linden 5 Ritterburg Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Skullhorn Pass Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn Touraine Genevieve de Sephora House of Sylaire Marquessates (7 points) Alhambra Carnelia de Belcadiz y Fedorias Clan of Alhambra Berrym Mariana Terlagand House of Ritterburg Dunvegan Alasdair McAllister House of Crownguard Ellerovyn Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn Satolas Fernando de Casanegra Clan of Alhambra Singhabad Ralindi Virayana House of Singhabad 6 Duchies (8 points) Fenswick Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick Hightower Eachainn McDougall House of Crownguard Archduchies (9 points) Westheath John Beaumarys-Moorkroft House of Singhabad Principalities (10 points) Aalban Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Belcadiz Carnelia de Belcadiz y Fedorias Clan of Alhambra Berghdoven Juliana Vlaardoen House of Linden Boldavia Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany House of Igorov Bramyra Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn Erewan Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn Fenswick Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick Klantyre Angus McGregor House of Crownguard 2 Krondahar Ralindi Virayana House of Singhabad 6 Morlay-Malinbois Malachie du Marais House of Malinbois New Kolland Kol XIV House of Blackstone Nouvelle Averoigne Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire Sablestone Harald Haaskinz House of Kern Charges Viceroy/Great Crater (1) Kol XIV House of Blackstone Viceroy/Huledain (1) Carlotina Erewan Clan of Ellerovyn Viceroy/Nordling (1) Jaggar von Drachenfels House of Ritterburg Viceroy/Monteleone (1) Carnelia de Belcadiz y Fedorias Clan of Alhambra Viceroy/Tchernovodsk (1) Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany House of Igorov Treasurer/Council (2) Juliana Vlaardoen House of Linden 7 Chamberlain/Land (4) Isidore d'Ambreville House of Sylaire Chancellor/Princes (6) Urmahid Krinagar House of Skullhorn Supreme Judge/Council (8)Dolores Hillsbury House of Fenswick 8 Grand Master/School (10) Harald Haaskinz House of Kern Voting Power Council Parliament Alhambra, Clan of 18 30 Blackstone, House of 16 16 Crownguard, House of 15 30 Ellerovyn, Clan of 18 22 Fenswick, House of 26 41 Igorov, House of 15 36 Kern, House of 24 32 Linden, House of 17 28 Malinbois, House of 15 19 Ritterburg, House of 17 33 Singhabad, House of 17 26 Skullhorn, House of 22 26 Sylaire, House of 19 30 Notes: 1 Pieter Vandehaar responded favorably to Princess Dolores Hillsbury's attempts to win his support in the election for Supreme Judge in 1016. He has continued to ally himself with the House of Fenswick, in attempts to further his own ambitions. 2 Angus McGregor was confirmed in his titles upon the discovery of the deaths of his father and grandfather, the former Prince Brannart McGregor. (MA1016) 3 Griseo Fulvina abandoned the House of Kern in 1016 AC. His ambitions towards an act of enfoeffment in the Caurenzan Valley weren't being pursued actively enough by his allies. He has since found a sympathetic ear in the House of Igorov. (Prince Gorevitch-Woszlany has his own interests in the region.) 4 Antonio di Tarento has allied himself with the growing influence of the House of Fenswick. Political opponents of Princess Hillsbury claim that she has made use of his ties with the Guild of Thugs. 5 Sinaria Verlien was discovered in 1016, following a long absence from Glantri. Unfortunately, she had apparently been driven completely mad, and was sent away to an asylum in Boldavia to recover. Her son Pieter has officially been confirmed as Count of High Sonden. (MA 1016) 6 Ralindi Virayana was elected successor to his father, the late Jherek Virayana, by Parliament in 1016 AC. Jherek had confirmed no heir prior to his death, and the succession was highly contested between Ralindi and Lan-Syn Virayana, one of Jherek's wives. (MA 1016) 7 Juliana Vlaardoen was nominated to the position of Treasurer following the vacation of the position by Dolores Hillsbury in 1016 AC. (MA 1016) 8 Dolores Hillsbury defeated Malachie du Marais in the election for position of Supreme Judge of the Council in 1016 AC. (MA 1016) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:11:41 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm starting up a fresh Red Steel campaign right now, I've already got a > Gallant in the party. Theres going to be a swashbuckler priest of Nyx as > well (! go figure !) Wouldn't Masauwu fit better (IIrc he's known as the Ambassador out west) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics (pt. III) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lastly, here's just a quick overview, in the format presented originally in GAZ3: Political Affiliations of Glantri Clan of Alhambra Ruler: Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz y Fedorias Siege: Principality of Belcadiz, at Alhambra. Alignment: Proud Elven Swashbucklers Voting Power: 18 at the Council 30 at Parliament Family: Leontina, mother; Dona Carmina, fiancee of the late Don Hippolito (missing); Dona Blanca, Carmina's twin sister; Don Alejandro, Blanca's husband; Victoria, Leontina's aunt and mother of Carmina and Blanca; Don Diego, brother; Don Ricardo, brother; Don Miguelito, son; Don Sancho, son; Dona Maria, daughter; Don Carlo, Maria's husband; Dona Yolanda, Leontina's sister and wife of Fernando; Don Fernando de Casanegra, uncle. Allies: Dona Isabella de Montebello, Vicontessa de Castelbianco; Don Fernando de Casanegra, Marques de Satolas. Foes: House of Sylaire, Clan of Ellerovyn. House of Blackstone Ruler: Prince Kol XIV Siege: Principality of New Kolland, at Blackstone Alignment: Pretentious Humanoid Rabblerousers Voting Power: 16 at the Council 16 at the Parliament Family: Teurac, mate; Gulb, son. Allies: None Foes: Houses of Ritterburg, Clan of Ellerovyn House of Crownguard Ruler: Prince Angus McGregor Siege: Principality of Klantyre, at Crownguard Alignment: Chauvinistic Scots of Chaos Voting Power: 15 at the Council 30 at the Parliament Family: Lady Mary, mother; Sir Bruce, uncle; Lady Barbara, aunt; Lord Alasdair McAllister, Barbara's husband; Sir Sean McAllister, Alasdair's son. Allies: Lord Alasdair McAllister, Marquis of Dunvegan. Foes: Houses of Sylaire and Igorov. Clan of Ellerovyn Ruler: Princess Carlotina Erewan Siege: Principality of Erewan, at Ellerovyn Alignment: Tree-Loving Elven Ecologists Voting Power: 18 at the Council 22 at Parliament Family: Lady Eleesea, mother; Lady Norelia, Eleesea's sister; Lady Bethys, Eleesea's sister; Lord Qenildor, son; Sire Thendain, son; Lady Esmeralda, Thendain's wife; Sire Unedyrin, Thendain's son. Allies: Lord Qenildor Erewan, Baron of Celedyl. Foes: House of Blackstone, Clan of Alhambra House of Fenswick Ruler: Princess Dolores Hillsbury Siege: Principality of Fenswick, at Fenswick Alignment: Deceitful Entropy Worshippers Voting Power: 26 at the Council 41 at Parliament Family: None Allies: Signor Innocenti di Malapietra, Viscount of Sirecchia; Lord Pieter Vandehaar, Baron of Oxhill; Signor Antonio di Tarento, Count of Glenargyll. Foes: Houses of Malinbois and Ritterburg House of Igorov Ruler: Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany Siege: Principality of Boldavia, at Igorov Alignment: Expansionist Chaotic Vampires Voting Power: 15 at the Council 36 at Parliament Family: Sir Boris, brother; Lady Tatyana, sister; Sir Mikhail, brother. Allies: Lady Natacha Datchenka, Baroness of Pavlova; Lord Piotr-Grygory Timenko, Baron of Kutchevski; Lord Yuri Ivanov, Baron of Palatinsk; Lady Szasza Markovitch, Baroness of Vladimirov; Signmor Griseo Fulvina, Viscount of Verrazano. Foes: Houses of Crownguard, Skullhorn, and Sylaire. House of Kern Ruler: Prince Harald of Haaskinz Siege: Principality of Sablestone, at Kern Alignment: Indifferent Scholastic Misfits Voting Power: 24 at the Council 32 at Parliament Family: Asadel, wife; Dominick, son; Tereis, sister; Saghir, uncle. Allies: Lord Angus McDuff, Baron of Uigmuir; Gerrid Rientha, Baron of Egorn. Foes: None House of Linden Ruler: Princess Juliana Vlaardoen Siege: Principality of Bergdhoven, at Linden Alignment: Apprehensive Flaemish Philanthropists Voting Power: 17 at the Council 28 at Parliament Family: Sir Anton, uncle. Allies: Lord Mirn Krollnar, Viscount of Bergen; Pieter Verlien, Count of High Sonden. Foes: Clan of Belcadiz. House of Malinbois Ruler: Prince Malachie du Marais Siege: Principality of Morlay-Malinbois, at Malinbois Alignment: Free Werewolf Patriots Voting Power: 15 at the Council 19 at Parliament Family: Dame Diane de Moriamis, wife; Dame Suzanne, mistress. Allies: Signor Vincienzo di Randazzi, Baron of Ylourgne Foes: House of Fenswick, Clan of Ellerovyn House of Ritterburg Ruler: Prince Jagger von Drachenfels Siege: Principality of Aalban, at Ritterburg Alignment: Warmongering Military Technocrats Voting Power: 17 at the Council 33 at Parliament Family: Frau Hildegarde, mother; Frau Helgar, sister; Herr Sigmund, son; Herr Rodrick, son. Allies: Herr Franz Lowenroth, Baron of Adlerturm; Herr Rolf von Graustein, Viscount of Blofeld; Lady Mariana Terlagand, Marchioness of Berrym; Sir Eachainn McDougall, Duke of Hightower. Foes: Houses of Fenswick, Singhabad, and Skullhorn. House of Singhabad Ruler: Prince Ralindi Virayana Siege: Principality of Krondahar, at Singhabad Alignment: Lawful Pacifists of Ethengar Voting Power: 17 at the Council 26 at Parliament Family: Lady Aleah; Lord Rejladan, brother; Lady Waira, Rejladan's mother and wife of deceased father. Allies: Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, Archduke of Westheath. Foes: House of Ritterburg. House of Skullhorn Ruler: Prince Urmahid Krinagar Siege: Principality of Bramyra, at Skullhorn Pass Alignment: Struggling Independent Borderlanders Voting Power: 22 at the Council 26 at Parliament Family: Lady Rinnath, wife; Lady Terrigis, daughter; Lady Lan-Syn Virayana, sister. Allies: Lord Sergei Wutyla, Baron of Mariksen. Foes: Houses of Ritterburg and Igorov. House of Sylaire Ruler: Princess Isidore d'Ambreville Siege: Principality of New Averoigne at Sylaire Alignment: Mutant Werewolves of Averoigne Voting Power: 19 at the Council 30 at Parliament Family: Sire Richard, husband; Dame Monique, daughter; Sire Georges, son; Sire Andre-David, brother; Dame Camille, Richard's mother; Sire Etienne, Richard's brother (missing); Dame Catherine, Etienne's wife (estranged); Sire Jean- Louis, Etienne's son; Sire Claude, Etienne's son; Dame Tatiana, Jean-Louis' wife; Dame Magdelene, Richard's sister and Andre-David's wife; Sire Charles, Richard's brother; Dame Isabelle, Charles's wife; Pere Simon, Richard's brother; Sire Henri, Richard's brother (missing); Sire Gaston, Richard's cousin; Sire Guillaume, Richard's cousin; Dame Janette, Guillaume's wife; Sire Michel, Guillaume's son; Dame Marie-Helene, Camille's sister and Gaston and Guillaume's mother. Allies: Sire Gilles Grenier, Vicomte de Fausseflammes; Dame Genevieve de Sephora, Comtesse de Touraine. Foes: Houses of Igorov and Crownguard; Clan of Alhambra. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:04:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/00 11:32:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Has anyone worked out the tactics that would have been developed by Mystaran nations because of the constant threat of magic upon the battlefield. Unfortunately very little thought has been put in to this officially. Let's face it, the usual tactics used by the RW counterparts have serious problems dealing with the Mobile Weapon Platforms known as adventuring groups, when they are used in conjunction with an opposing army. Unit formations should be different with the threat of area affect magic, otherwise the potential casualties are massive e.g. Fire Storm from the druid, at 14th level it can affect an area of nearly 100 yards by 10 yards causing on average 23 HP damage save for 1/2.>> mass combat and adnd/dnd are not really cohesive. it may be different if the mid to high pc/npc was alone facing an oppossing unit. in that aspect, numbers are eventually going to wear the pc down, especially missile weapon attacks. however if the hero is acting in conjunction with other troops, attention is not squarely upon him and he can address the opposing troops in more manageable numbers. with weapon mastery, greater numbers of HPs, and other skills/enhancements the hero can wreak havoc on enemy troops as he is directly met by only a handful of 1 or 2 HD soldiers. as he goes through the carnal assembly line, he really has to only worry about the enemy's hero getting to him. <> magic can be used by both sides. but why assault the walls when the attackers can use magic to bypass them. teleport in with some choice troops or NPCs and bypass the walls entirely. other spells can be utilized as well. combat is a series of tactics and counter tactics. magic is just another addition to the weapon inventory and probably has been integrated into the military tactical scheme. the winner usually being who can use their weapons to out do the enemy. one also has to factor in casualties versus gains. if by sacrificing 100 troops to use up a mage's spells removes him from the battle, that is an acceptable loss. the mage is either forced into melee or must flee. he is not a factor until the spell inventory is replenished. and victory is easily closer. it sounds cruel, but that's war. <> it depends on the definition of maneuver. a flanking maneuver is a flanking maneuver whether it is done by greek light infantry or by modern mechanized infantry. maneuvers are essentially the same, the difference comes in the weapons and means they are carried out. as far as ability to maneuver, the ethie are the kings, followed by the ylari. however, their focus on cavalry leaves the wanting in regards to infantry which is needed to exploit cavalry gains. other peoples, especially the renaissance era ones, are more balanced and possess more refined tactics and weapons. most pwa styled armies with a heavy magical contingent, seem to focus on low level mages and the use of 1st level spells in quick volleys before being pulled back. magic missile is a prefered favorite of mine. as the enemy comes into range....facing normal missile volleys....they are struck by a magic missile volley. though not fatal to a 1HD fighter a single hit does take away a chunk of the trooper's hit points putting him at a distinct disadvantage when he makes it to the enemy lines. if numbers allow, the mages could overlap their spells to tag team charging troops, killing as many as half the number of enemy as there are mages in the ranks. take it to the level of boltmen, and you have a steady flow of magic missiles. a group of 100 boltmen could easily destroy an opposing force of 500 troops. the opposition has to be aware of this and either attack in overwhelming numbers or maneuvers to get their troops into their ranks where melee favors the fighter. in some ways its like assaulting a machine gun nest. aware of this, the mage force would have an attachment of normal infantry to help cover the mages. an example of this is the use of bayonet musket troops to support the non bayonet equipped long rifles of nepoleonic warfare. i prefer battles where large numbers of troops face each other. in fact, i don't like pcs taking a close stand with battles except as officers. imo war should be handled by the respective military forces. pcs should find their wartime use in special tasks before the battle to aid the war effort or in command of units. PCs are specialized warriors...much akin to a Navy Seal, Green Beret, or SAS. these special forces have traditionally done badly if used in a conventional role with other troops. their training dictates quick covert strikes, not sustained warfare in a conventional sense. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:19:04 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Oh no, I never meant a rake had no place in the setting. Far from it (I'm a > major swashbuckler fan!). I just meant that the rake class, as is given, is > simply worthless, and I wouldn't use it personally. > > Which is what the original post was about, I think! > If it wasn't, ignore me, I got the wrong end of the stick as usual. > That is exactly what I was getting at in the original. So people trust you a little more if you don't show certain thieflike traits. Surely that's a much more role-play than game mechanic aspect. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:38:40 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-15 21:36:37 Eastern Standard Time, megst19+@PITT.EDU writes: << This isn't a change at all to me. Individualists and free spirits are generally thought of as selfish and evil, while moralists are well, moral. Most folks hopefully think William Jennings Bryan and Dorothy Day were better people than Al Capone and O.J. Simpson. Only a libertarian mentalility finds problems with those who want to legislate morality and only the same mindset would praise those who don't see the need for laws and rules. >> That sort of argument suggests the appeal of a neutral alignment -- I think I am equally uncomortable with those who see no need for laws or rules and those who would overlegislate morality. Somewhere between absolute order and absolute freedom is a happy medium that makes for a pleasant society. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:19:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: thib In-Reply-To: thibault sarlat 's message of Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:19:18 +0100 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Tuesday and Wednesday are derived from the names of Germanic/Norse Gods. Tuesday= Tiu's Day, the scandinavians call him Tyr Wednesday= Wotan's Day, the scandinavians call him Odin. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:21:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: [Re:RPG What happened?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have followed the discussion, and I think I am going to enter it to say something, too, pointing some things: 1) The reason for so many new magic spells etc. is mainly because it is more easy to develope new spells than to develope fighting skills. And it is much more easy than to develope the things I find most interesting in RPG's: characters, nations, politics, armies, cities, sites, features of the world. I think that the problem with RPG's is that in the last years they are STUPIDIZING themselves. 2) People like to play the powerful wizard that blows to dust the city, or the fighter who kills thousands of dragons. Yes, RPG is becoming munchkin game. I hate it. I had an horrible campaign where pg's were continually creating magical weapons, new spells etc. and could easily kill anything. I had to quit the field, I couldn't bare it. Then I started a new campaign on a much lower basis. Strong magic users are few. Clerics don't go around resurrecting people. Fighters and thieves are most of the world's characters, and a tenth level character is incredibly strong. I have players that had played and were not satisfied by munchkin games; the wizard of the group tries to resort to spells only as the last solution, because they don't know when a spell can really become useful. And that is because, as a DM, I try to create problems that can't be solved by the gaming rules, just by the intelligence and creativity- also, sometimes, involving spells. But I know it's much more easy for a Dm putting 10 red dragons against 7 36th level wizards and fighters who will in the end result victorious. I know of campaigns where people never ever escaped a fight, and never ever suffered a loss. But I think it would be too much to remind you how powerful some monsters are, and how difficult it would prove, if the DM knew how them should be used, to kill them (beholders, dragons, etc.). 3) And this, I believe, have to do with James' observation that also the Mystaran world reflects this change becoming dull as Toril (FR is, in my opinion, one of the worst RPG campaigns I've ever seen, very close to MERP). You see it by the fact that thousand of people are involved describing Alphatia and Glantri and probably the number of people describing all other countries of the Known World (not taking in consideration Norwold and Savage Coast) are about the same number. Just look at Thyatis, Ethengar, Ylaruam, Five Shires, Rockhome, Aengmor/Alfheim. How often do you see articles relating to those countries on the MML? It is because it is much more difficult to actually THINK of those countries, than say 'Oh, well, I don't have anything to do this morning, let's invent an Alphatian Artifact'. 4) A note, though: when I say that many things are 'stupid', I don't mean that they are not interesting and that the people who write them are stupid. I just mean that they are flat things, while additions to our World by characters and history are, in my humble opinion, much more interesting than a bunch of spells or some hyper powerful monster 5) I hope not having offended anyone; if I did, it was not intentionally. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Proud Fighter Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:37:47 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I'm starting up a fresh Red Steel campaign right now, I've already got a >> Gallant in the party. Theres going to be a swashbuckler priest of Nyx as >> well (! go figure !) > >Wouldn't Masauwu fit better (IIrc he's known as the Ambassador out west) Undoubtably, but the player in question has been entranced by Nyx and is desperate to play a priest of Nyx now... (Yeah, Masauwu is the Ambassador Out West, btw. Nyx is only worshipped in Nimmur officially to my knowledge, where she is Nin-Hurabi...) Ahh well. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:39:10 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Rakes and Swashbucklers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That is exactly what I was getting at in the original. So people trust you a >little more if you don't show certain thieflike traits. Surely that's a much >more role-play than game mechanic aspect. My thoughts exactly. If I was sticking to D&D rules I would just say that Rakes are identical to Thieves. Its just how you roleplay them. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:19:10 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel wrote: > > >I'm more concerned about the use of conjured monsters, and things like mages > >polymorphed into umber hulks and breaking the enemy line by going > >underground. Most elementals are immune to whatever an army can push at > >them, so theoretically the army is helpless. > > And you'll have to deal with that because certainly high-leveled Alphatian wizards will definitely use Air Elementals. Thyatian (and Glantrian) wizards will also use Elementals, of course, but the Alphatians are probably better equipped to counter them! > Glantrian would use mostly Water and Fire elementals since the Great Meteor crushed their best Air and Earth elementalists. Thyatians would probably use anything they have, Earth and Water being more common than Fire and Air (tipically Alphatian/Flaem magics). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:08:22 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >mass combat and adnd/dnd are not really cohesive. it may be different if the >mid to high pc/npc was alone facing an oppossing unit. in that aspect, >numbers are eventually going to wear the pc down, especially missile weapon >attacks. however if the hero is acting in conjunction with other troops, >attention is not squarely upon him and he can address the opposing troops in >more manageable numbers. with weapon mastery, greater numbers of HPs, and >other skills/enhancements the hero can wreak havoc on enemy troops as he is >directly met by only a handful of 1 or 2 HD soldiers. as he goes through the >carnal assembly line, he really has to only worry about the enemy's hero >getting to him. In Red Steel, musketeers are a great equaliser. I challenge any fighter to charge a line of 10 musketeers (assuming he is not wearing grotesquely magical armour, impervious to bullets) and come out standing. Even arrows in large quantities prove to be nasty. Overbearing attacks against the high level fighter always work well too. Also bear in mind that though the high level fighter may be safe behind his hit points, the peons he is fighting alongside may not. So he could find himself dangerously exposed when he looks around and all his buddies are dead. Plus - he is a Hero. He's going to be pretty visible on the battlefield I think, he's not just Johnny Soldier. So he WILL attract a lot of attention from the enemy. In a world where heroes exist, I imagine the enemy know what heroes can do, and have some nice little take downs already prepared. > < defenders fall back at one point you usually strengthen your attack there to > cause a breach. Your assault troops are now a perfect target for > annihilation by magic.>> > >magic can be used by both sides. but why assault the walls when the attackers >can use magic to bypass them. teleport in with some choice troops or NPCs >and bypass the walls entirely. other spells can be utilized as well. combat >is a series of tactics and counter tactics. magic is just another addition to >the weapon inventory and probably has been integrated into the military >tactical scheme. the winner usually being who can use their weapons to out do >the enemy. one also has to factor in casualties versus gains. if by >sacrificing 100 troops to use up a mage's spells removes him from the battle, >that is an acceptable loss. the mage is either forced into melee or must >flee. he is not a factor until the spell inventory is replenished. and >victory is easily closer. it sounds cruel, but that's war. You are assuming that no defences against magic have yet been invented. Most dungeons in modules these days for high level characters seem to prevent teleportation effects. In a world where any mage with dim door can breach a castle, don't you think the defenders have their own defences? The Glantrian Wall with No Doors spell has been liberally deployed IMC on the frontline to prevent such sneak attacks. The Thyatians have their own equivalent IMC which bounces the would be teleporter back into the Astral Plane. And of course we have spells like Forbiddance, and the clerical Focus spell which can be cast on a temple (all castles IMC usually have a shrine to Vanya or some war Immortal - and temples are notoriously hard to crack!). Incidentally, it would be quite funny if the mage teleports in with his crack troops right into a wall. Incidentally, if you spot a mage in AD&D rules, you can have your specialised in longbow troops plugging him at the start of every round, disrupting his spells. (This is what I was on about with those sharpshooter units earlier). With a dispel magic and a good roll, the mage is dead - and mages are not "expendable assets". I'm only in 1006AC IMC and I already reckon that the 1000 Wizards of Alphatia are getting some attrition - say, a couple of percent. The PCs have dropped a couple, I can only assume that similar stories are going on on the rest of the planet. And unlike Johnny Soldier, you can't just draft in a replacement. > < manoeuvre rather than large easily disabled forces? After all they've had > over 2000 years to work on the problem in some cases.>> > >it depends on the definition of maneuver. a flanking maneuver is a flanking >maneuver whether it is done by greek light infantry or by modern mechanized >infantry. maneuvers are essentially the same, the difference comes in the >weapons and means they are carried out. as far as ability to maneuver, the >ethie are the kings, followed by the ylari. however, their focus on cavalry >leaves the wanting in regards to infantry which is needed to exploit cavalry >gains. other peoples, especially the renaissance era ones, are more balanced >and possess more refined tactics and weapons. Given the army lists, they are usually infantry, with a bit of supporting cavalry. Modern wars of maneuver came about in WW2 when Nazi Germany thought of the innovation of motorised infantry - by which the tanks could keep up with the infantry instead of vice versa. Mages may grant extra mobility, but only to a very small number of troops. In this way, I suppose they would be the equivalent of the Paras or something - they would deploy troops to strategic positions, who would then have to hold said position until they can get some support from the regular troops. >most pwa styled armies with a heavy magical contingent, seem to focus on low >level mages and the use of 1st level spells in quick volleys before being >pulled back. magic missile is a prefered favorite of mine. as the enemy comes >into range....facing normal missile volleys....they are struck by a magic >missile volley. though not fatal to a 1HD fighter a single hit does take away >a chunk of the trooper's hit points putting him at a distinct disadvantage >when he makes it to the enemy lines. if numbers allow, the mages could >overlap their spells to tag team charging troops, killing as many as half the >number of enemy as there are mages in the ranks. take it to the level of >boltmen, and you have a steady flow of magic missiles. a group of 100 boltmen >could easily destroy an opposing force of 500 troops. Depends what the boltmen are armed with. In AD&D at least, I would much rather take a longbow than a wand of magic missiles. And those boltmen are vastly outranged by missile weapons. I would not say its easy for those boltmen to annihilate 5x their number. In an open field where visibility is not a problem, those boltmen would be cut to pieces by arrows before they even got close enough to fire the first volley. (I believe Melfs Acid Arrow is one of the longest ranged spells in AD&D, at 180 yards. Magic Missile is about half this. Given a musket has a range of 360 yards, and a longbow only a little less than this - and given that longbows have a rate of fire of 2, and that the troops firing them will probably be specialised (WILL be specialised in the case of Thyatians) I wouldn't underestimate the power of the archer. Especially if those boltmen are mages, meaning they will be killed by a single hit. Very crudely, 1000 arrows a round, we'll give the boltmen the benefit of an armour spell - even at long range thats 100 hits on the boltmen (50 assuming they are in cover). If you assume double damage on crits then those 50 crits will kill, the other 50 may kill. Well, thats your 100 boltman force covered there I'm afraid, after one minute of arrow fire from long range. Another reason for said boltmen to be hiding in a trench :) Incidentally, assuming you deign to grant the enemy similar levels of troops (say, level 2 or 3 fighters) a lightning bolt from a wand is not certain to kill them anyway. In fact, assuming you use death at -10hp, it is pretty darn unlikely to kill them. And the 25% who successfully save versus wands (it may be significantly better than this, after the clerical prayer, chant, bless, blah blah blah) will be in the boltmans face, removing it with an axe. And as for a wand of magic missiles - its going to take several plugs to put a fighter down with that. And see above for the arrow calculation :) >the opposition has to be aware of this and either attack in overwhelming >numbers or maneuvers to get their troops into their ranks where melee favors >the fighter. in some ways its like assaulting a machine gun nest. aware of >this, the mage force would have an attachment of normal infantry to help >cover the mages. an example of this is the use of bayonet musket troops to >support the non bayonet equipped long rifles of nepoleonic warfare. The alternative is for the nonmagical troops to hang back and liberally pepper the area with arrows. (Or catapult fire, which could have all sorts of interesting payloads - even if not magical, try casting a spell Mr Mage when covered with burning naptha, or sprayed with contact poison - all of which any chap with Alchemy proficiency can make). Also, bear in mind the staying power of these hypothetical boltmen. After a couple of minutes of combat they are out of charges. Assuming the enemy aren't dumb and have their formations chosen to minimise casualties, you may find your boltmen arent nearly as effective as you thought. Same is true of mages. A 5th level mage gets 1 fireball - a fireball is not dissimilar in area of effect to a fragmentation grenade. It has a short range, meaning that the mage is almost certainly going to get peppered before he comes in by arrows, and probably killed. and when he actually gets the spell off, he will kill, to my estimate, roughly four or five men, assuming they are in a well spaced formation. And thats his contribution for the day. Those four or five men can be easily replaced - the 5th level mage cannot. How many times can he pull this stunt before he is killed? Probably not many, if his enemies are using any tactical brains at all. A final point - mages have to be standing dead still and cannot be harassed in any way while casting a spell. For example, a mage cannot cast from horseback unless he has assistants steadying him in the saddle, he could not cast while standing on a ship in heavy swell, and he probably could not even cast in a really heavy thunderstorm. A bit like the fighter aircraft of WW2, which were often grounded by bad weather. >i prefer battles where large numbers of troops face each other. in fact, i >don't like pcs taking a close stand with battles except as officers. imo war >should be handled by the respective military forces. pcs should find their >wartime use in special tasks before the battle to aid the war effort or in >command of units. PCs are specialized warriors...much akin to a Navy Seal, >Green Beret, or SAS. these special forces have traditionally done badly if >used in a conventional role with other troops. their training dictates quick >covert strikes, not sustained warfare in a conventional sense. I agree with you here. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:20:49 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-16 07:13:27 Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << A final point - mages have to be standing dead still and cannot be harassed in any way while casting a spell. For example, a mage cannot cast from horseback unless he has assistants steadying him in the saddle, he could not cast while standing on a ship in heavy swell, and he probably could not even cast in a really heavy thunderstorm. A bit like the fighter aircraft of WW2, which were often grounded by bad weather. >> But many of the gazetteers do feature skills that enable some mages to cast spells under such adverse conditions. The mages who are able to learn such skills will be that much more useful in mass combat. Minro- thaddans and Ierendians would be superior in casting spells from ships, while Ethengarians, Ylari, and Glantrians would almost certainly have learned how to cast spells from horseback without assistance. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:00:50 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the case of Isidore and Richard in _Mark of Amber_, the change in their > relative dominance should have provided a clue that something was amiss. > Since Isidore and not Richard was supposed to be the ruler, why was Richard > giving all the orders? I find it interesting that nobody noticed that > discrepancy > except in hindsight. > Actually, IMC, the players did get to notice that quite early in the story and started to suspect Richard and Isidore right off (which made it hard for me as the DM!). > In fact, a few things I have read showed more gender bias in the authors than > in the people described -- for example, in G:KoM notice that bizarre remark > about Vanserie's brother Anton (supposedly a fighter) giving up his claim to > Linden in favor of Juliana -- never mind that Juliana was the obvious heir and > that Anton as a supposed mundaner would have had no claim at all. Good point. The Flaems should be played more gender-neutral (and subsequently arcaner-biased). Kit Navarro fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:08:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Mystara Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aloha, The main difference in magic in Mystara would be spell names. Any spell which has someones name in it, drop the name. So "Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter" become "Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter", "Melf's Minute Meteors" becomes "Minute Meteors" and so forth. The only exceptions being spells created by Mystara wizards (such spells as found in Mystara specific products and in a lot of net-fan-fic). Glantrians however have different names for the same spells (such as "Fireball" being called "deathfire's rapture"). See the Grimoire in the G:KoM for more examples. I don't know what the spellcasting is like in the players option stuff as I have always stayed away from the revised 2nd edition stuff. I only use 2nd edition, with some OD&D rules, and an occasional (though very rare) 1E rule. hope this helps. Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html on Sat, 15 Jan 2000 at 21:03:57 GMT, kevin asked: > >Greetings to all > >My thanks to all who pointed out my shouting faux pas. As a new user of >computers and the net my manners may oftimes seem barbaric. It is purely >unintentional I assure you. > >I have recently joined a Night Below campaign that our DM has set in >Mystara.Can anyone point me toward info that will tell me the differences in >spellcasting in Mystara as compared to other D&D worlds. Our DM is using 2E >rules with additions from the Player's Option books. She is currently >arranging what info she has so as not to give me any DM only info. > >thanx > >kevin > >Oh yeah,bumper sticker off the same truck from my last quote: > >Happiness is a belt-fed weapon _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:55:53 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly wrote: > > That's another way of saying it. But I still don't understand how it is > being applied. > Uh? I believe that the thread was started by the Almanac event that led Ralindi Virayana to replace Lan-Syn as Prince, which is due to the fact that Krondaharans are rather prejudiced in favour of men (So Ralindi is considered a more suitable heir even though Lan-Syn is older and more competent as a spellcaster). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:10:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Destruction of Old Alphata- The Baba Yaga story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .>> Actually, I mailed to the list something hinting about the malfunction of the Doomsday Weapon" in the "Baba Yaga story". If you = want I can send it again.<< >Sure. OK here it is again: (Taken from a GPD discussion about the way Julianna Vlarrdoen came to = be) ************** (lonely forest somewhere in Denagoth, Wilhelmine wears common clothes = and standing out side a hut with a fence and skulls on it) Wilhelmine- "Baba Yaga! Oh great Ogeress of times forgotten! Here the = plea of a child of fire!" (The hut starts to wiggle and then rises on its bird like legs and = starts to dance) Wilhelmine-" Baba Yaga! Oh powerful sorceress from days of yore, = subduwer of dragons Destroyer of the Enduke empire! I Willhelmine = Vlaardoen of the Brajer nation, Implore you to listen to my request." (Wilelmine quitely activates a protection spell) Baba Yaga- "You..... want a child......" Wilhelmine- "Yes, great witch. You are truly all knowing." Baba Yaga- "There is......... a price......" Wilhelmine- "Of course, mother of ogers, I bring with me the Staff of = Eyrendul, stolen from the hated elves." Baba Yaga- "That is..... not...... enough....." Wilhelmine- "What else would you ask? I can you all the riches of = Linden!" Baba Yaga- "In twenty years time........ there will be a war among the = humans........ the greatest war since days of Lehomar..... the immortals = ...... wrath is ..........coming.........." Wilhelmine- "Continue oh wise killer of gods, what do you want me to = do?" Baba Yaga- "In the city of the wizard-queen...... you = will..................................." Wilhelmine- "You can't be serious?! the whole continent?!" Babay Yaga- "Drink this potion......after being with your = male............ you will have a doughter...." Willhel mine- "A doughter! Oh thank you.." (Wilhelmine is standing alone in the forest. Baba Yaga's hut is no more. = She teleports back to Glantri) Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:01:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Comments: To: James Ruhland In-Reply-To: <200001152203.RAA31054@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jruhlconob@sprynet.com on Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 04:01:01PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 04:01:01PM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > 1) The tradition used to be, evolved out of things like the "Conan" books & > comics, that the heros were "fighters", sword vs sorcery types. > Then something changed: now the "kindly mage" (steriotypical > example=Elminster, but there are Mystaran equivilents. I.E. Haldemar) is > usually the more admired type, while the villians are often more > sword-oriented (sure, Haldemar's typical foils, the HKs, had their priestly > magic - but they were "Knights" vs. Haldemar's Sorcery). Terari would be another example, although I think the kindly sage like guys were always there. (Bensarian, Teldon etc) > Mages are now unarguably the most popular character class They're certainly the most powerful, perhaps this is why? Also it could be argued that messing with magics allows for more fantastical plot hooks than does stealing/fighting/praying. Not sure what the question was for this part... > 2) > Now the favored nations & groups are most often the powerful ones: > How did this happen? Why do people seem to prefer it? >From a Mystara perspective this is indeed the case, and I for one don't prefer it. [1] The only other game worlds I am that familiar with are Dark Sun and FASA's Shadowrun. Neither of these strikes me as moving in this directions, the heroes are still fighting against incredible odds. [An argument could be made that the Heroes of Tyr fit this favoured group status, or the Draco Foundation, but I don't think that this is quite what James means...] As for why it happened...hmmm, not sure on this one, I think it may have to do with wanting events to happen in the Almanacs, and having NPC Heroes do what the PC's would do. It's just that they succeeded rather a lot and made the world a safer place. Any time progressing supplements have to, in a way, ignore the PC's, since obviously every group is different. This can lead to DM's trying to minimise the effect of the PC's to fit in with the game world as written [I used to do this myself] which is not the intention of the supplements authors but can nevertheless happen. But if the PC's are ignored to the extent that they aren't needed [the Harpers will save the day, the Alphatians will stop the Burrower!] then it becomes a major problem. Hmm, OK, but that's seperate to the way the 'good guys' are much more powerful/capable than the 'bad guys'. I don't know how this came about, or indeed why it came about. Usually inept 'villians' are a sign of inept writing and I would hesitate to describe the later Mystaran as having such. > 3) Alignment Dunno, never use it myself. > Also, conversely, people deride "munchkin" gaming - how does this fit into > preferences for more powerful nations and character classes (I.E. the > popularity of exceptionally powerful Wizards, and the concentration on how > easily they can dominate and defeat non-spellcasters, including entire > armies)? Is there a disconect there? Would somewhere care to define 'muchkinism', because I was about to say how it was different from when *I* have uber-powerful PC's, but I can't describe the difference. [2] gordon [IMC stuff ahead, just if you're curious] [1] Running World in Flames atm, Alphatia was truly sunk, the remnants are a mess, fallings to pieces after so much destrucion it will take decades to recover such things as trade never mind anything akin to a government - Karameikos is doing alright so far and will probably continue to do so, but with more political intrigue now that Stefan is influenced by Traladarans/Thyatians/ Alphatians/Calarri Elves/Alfheim Elves and Clerics of Koryis - it's not one happy family. Thyatis is destined to collapse during the war with the goblinoids, Glantri has already fallen, Darokin looks like it's next (they still haven't recovered Selenica from the Alphatians). The Heldannic Knights are collapsing in on themselves thanks to the inquistion... In short, it's not a happy world, which I like since a) I'm a sicko :) b) It gives the PC's *loads* to do c) Hey, I like tragedy (see a) [2] I wanted one of my PC's to become immortal. How can it *not* get munchkiny when I have a 36th level mage, 36th level thief (also the Dragon Lord) and 10thM level elf (high master of dracology). The final parts of that campaign were incredibly difficult for the PC's. The odds they faces were astounding and they sacrificed a lot to make the world a better place. It was a fun story (that's a huge understatement). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:25:08 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: ; from megst19+@PITT.EDU on Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 09:36:24PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 09:36:24PM -0500, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > > > I suppose one reason might be that people don't like to see a static and > > unchanging world (it's boring!). > > I like static worlds for the simple purpose that they let them the > campaign dictate what's going to happen - PCs can play as large a role as > NPCs - you also don't need to buy another 20 products with each > earth-breaking event just to stick to canon, which is another plus. I used to argue that a changing campaign world was much better than a static one. Certainly the three game worlds I'm familiar with (Mystara, Dark Sun, Shadowrun) all have developing timelines. After a lengthy discussion on Dark-sun-l though I'm more inclined to agree with Mischa. Which is strange because I really, really like Wrath/Almanacs. Essentially the argument came down to this: It's inevitable that your own campaign is going to diverge from printed material. New supplements that deal with changes in the timeline (or incorporate that timeline) are more difficult to use if you don't use that timeline. [I can think of loads of examples from Dark Sun atm, but none from Mystara, I'll try later if someone asks :) ] Actually, just out of curiosity, how many people on the list use the future events of wrath/almanacs, and how many use just the 1000 AC stuff? gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:50:12 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Comments: To: Gordon McCormick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Terari would be another example, although I think the kindly sage > like guys were always there. (Bensarian, Teldon etc) > 1) "kindly sage" who advises the "heros" is one thing - someone else mentioned Merlin. But the focus was clearly on the *knights* of the Round Table; Merlin was a "supporting character" (though certainly a visible one). Same with Tolkien's Ring Saga: Gandalf didn't level the enemy with his spells (which were actually rather feeble) - most of what he did was either advice to the "main" heros or events that took place "off stage" while the focus was on the gutsy short guys with their pigstickers. Things are the reverse, now: these "sages" aren't so much "sages and advisors" to the heros - they are the center of activity. The other guys are now the supporting cast of characters. 2) As someone reminded me last week, "Terari" does not exist. There is no such person as "Terari." > > They're certainly the most powerful, perhaps this is why? Also > it could be argued that messing with magics allows for more > fantastical plot hooks than does stealing/fighting/praying. Not > sure what the question was for this part... > That's ok; you answered it: they are the most popular because they are undoubtibly the most powerful. No one would argue that a 36th level Fighter was effectively unkillable and immortal if he wanted to be (tough to kill? Sure. But no one would say unkillable and effectively immortal). The assumption is that any powerful mage worth his salt cannot really "die" because of all the spells he or she can use to "cheat death." That is just one example. No other character class has so many advantages at so little cost. > > The only other game worlds I am that familiar with are Dark Sun and > FASA's Shadowrun. Neither of these strikes me as moving in this > directions, the heroes are still fighting against incredible odds. > That's why I tend to *love* the Shadowrun universe. Every conspiracy theory is true (and even more outlandish and horrible than guys like Lone Gunman imagine). The "threats" are all way more powerful than the "good guys" (if there are any to be found). Far from weakening the "threat level" over time FASA has ratcheted it up. It's just too bad they don't publish more (Damn that Lofwyr: I loved Corporate Download, but I'll Never Deal with a Dragon. . .or Trust an Elf, for that matter). > [An argument could be made that the Heroes of Tyr fit this > favoured group status, or the Draco Foundation, but I don't think > that this is quite what James means...] > Well, the Heroes of Tyr were way munchie, IMO (killing the Dragon of Tyr in such a simplistic fashion that if the TSR guys were regailed about it at a Con by "mere" fans they would snicker openly about how some people play campaigns. That was "all too easy" as Darth would say. I disliked Cerullian Storm immensely, and it took my irritation and dislike for those heros into total hatred and absolute venomous frenzy. It makes my opposition to what happend to Alphatia look like a mild disent). As for the Draco Foundation, so far I agree with you - they are a "good" organization, but far, *far* from being an Ubergroup (they get some things accomplished, especially in the SR novels, but are still dwarfed by the power of other groups and organizations with more nefarious goals). > > Hmm, OK, but that's seperate to the way the 'good guys' are > much more powerful/capable than the 'bad guys'. I don't know > how this came about, or indeed why it came about. Usually > inept 'villians' are a sign of inept writing and I would hesitate > to describe the later Mystaran as having such. > I wouldn't. I wouldn't go so far as to say "inept writing" (well, not out loud). But there was an obvious shift towards portraying "the enemy" as stupid and incompetent (see the former thread of that name, posted on the MML a week ago). > > Would somewhere care to define 'muchkinism', because I was about > to say how it was different from when *I* have uber-powerful PC's, > but I can't describe the difference. [2] > Used to be known as Monty Haulism. I think there is a difference between powerful characters and munchkin/Monty Haulism. I've seen parties where characters averaging 8th level take down Azmodeus, Demogorgon, and Thor as part of the day's afternoon excersise, and I've seen parties where 20th+ level guys have a hard time surviving, much less succeeding. I *do* think the drumbeat of "solo mages can defeat entire armies singlehandledly" or "mages are effectively invulnerable to being killed" &tc fall into the former category rather than the latter, and arguments regarding such are usually evidence of a munckin personality, but that's just my opinion and interpretation. > > [2] I wanted one of my PC's to become immortal. How can it > *not* get munchkiny when I have a 36th level mage, 36th level > thief (also the Dragon Lord) and 10thM level elf (high master > of dracology). The final parts of that campaign were incredibly > difficult for the PC's. The odds they faces were astounding and > they sacrificed a lot to make the world a better place. It was > a fun story (that's a huge understatement). > See, that's what I mean by a difference between a powerful party (or powerful character) and munckinism. On the surface it may seem that the character you describe is very munchie (he should move to Alphatia and sing the national Anthem, which ends ". . . .we wish to welcome you to munckin land.") - but if the party is challenged ("increadibly difficult for the PC's."), then I'd say it isn't Monty Haul. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:43:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics > House of Ritterburg > Ruler: Prince Jagger von Drachenfels > Siege: Principality of Aalban, at Ritterburg > Alignment: Warmongering Military Technocrats > Voting Power: 17 at the Council > 33 at Parliament > Family: Frau Hildegarde, mother; Frau Helgar, sister; Herr Sigmund, son; > Herr Rodrick, son. > Allies: Herr Franz Lowenroth, Baron of Adlerturm; Herr Rolf von Graustein, > Viscount of Blofeld; Lady Mariana Terlagand, Marchioness of Berrym; Sir > Eachainn McDougall, Duke of Hightower. > Foes: Houses of Fenswick, Singhabad, and Skullhorn. > Is McDougall here a mistake, you haven't counted him in the voting power of the Ritterburgs. he is however counted in Crownguards voting power. Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised if he would change his alliance after Angus became a Prince, his interests are so similar with Jaggar's. Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > << This isn't a change at all to me. Individualists and free spirits are > generally thought of as selfish and evil, while moralists are well, moral. > Most folks hopefully think William Jennings Bryan and Dorothy Day were > better people than Al Capone and O.J. Simpson. Only a libertarian > mentalility finds problems with those who want to legislate morality and > only the same mindset would praise those who don't see the need for laws > and rules. >> > > That sort of argument suggests the appeal of a neutral alignment -- I think > I am equally uncomortable with those who see no need for laws or rules > and those who would overlegislate morality. I see the idea for a neutrality view, as long as it doesn't reach the odd "seeks to balance everything" perspective we got in AD&D. I think most folks IRL fit into the neutral category. - Mischa Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price....They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people. - Adam Smith ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:42:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara In-Reply-To: <015e01bf5f41$9ffc7aa0$abf317d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Working on the GPD project where we go deep into the psychology of the > Glantrian nobles, I've come to realize the differences in gender baises and > stereotypes in the Known World cultures. Most of our real world cultures > have had a strong patriarchal bias, hence the archetypes of the strong > dominant male and the meek subservient woman. It took me a few years to notice this trend as well. There are a few matriarchical countries in Mystara (the Malpheggi spring to mind) and a number of egalitarian ones but overall most have varying degrees of a pro-male bias. > the pathetic male weakling. You called? > Thyatians: A patriarchal society, but with a grudging admiration for strong > women, such as their Immortal Patroness Vanya. As the Thyatians have spread > all throughout Mystara, this patriarchal culture has had a strong impact in > many nations and people. I think some of the colonies may be different, but this sounds accurate to me. > Milenians: A very strong patriarchal society, without the Thyatian > admiration for women. I suspect, instead a very strong and positive attitude > towards masculinity that some form of homosexuality is probably commonplace. Hadn't thought of the latter part there, but I agree on this. When the women are forming a secret group aimed at overthrowing the government, you know they're being repressed quite a bit. > As I am not well-versed in all of Mystaran nations, I can't discuss myself > the gender biases of the other cultures. I'd like to know your ideas about > them, particularly the Traladrans (patriarchal? I'd say they're fairly patriarchical, judging from the links to Milenia and from the material in B10. > are definitely so), the Azcans and Oltecs Without checking the sourcebooks, I think the Oltecs are fairly egalitarian, with the Azcans being a very macho culture. > the Jennites Egalitarian IMO. If you go by my HWR, there's the slightest bit of pro-male bias. - Mischa Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price....They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people. - Adam Smith ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:44:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: TSR/Net Products vs Homemade products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, just out of curiosity, how many people on the list > use the future events of wrath/almanacs, and how many use just > the 1000 AC stuff? > > gordon I really don't give a ( ) of what WotI, PWA and official products say. I use ideas I like, just to give a background and a possibility of interact directly in the world events. I saw the MML, the TOM and the MA as possibilities of sharing some of my ideas on Mystara with others, but I don't think serious players would use a set of events as it is portrayed in one of those, being them TSR products, Mystaran Almanacs or World on Fire. When I write, I hope to get people interested in what I do, and I hope to discuss, express my ideas and maybe sparkle a new hint into the reader. A thing I would really be happy of, would be as, for example, if a player wrote to me telling me 'Hey, my DM looked at the Nightmare Dim. infos on your site and developed a great adventure'. I don't think any writer here thinks that HIS Mystara is the official Mystara, and I really hope nobody has so few imagination that he must resort only on Net Products. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:49:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: What's your preferred Nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to have a poll- stupid, maybe. Just for my own interest, then I would send the result to the mail. Could you writeto me personally, answering the question: 'Which Mystaran Nation do you prefer?' My answer is- Alphatia. Ha ha ha. (If someone believes me, he probably is the Black King of the Alphak's Volcano). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:52:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Sarcastic Mystara part One MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some not so funny, quite ironic jokes on Mystaran countries. What�s the difference between a honest Glantrian and Bigfoot? Bigfoot has been sighted. How come Alphatian wizards always have a clear conscience? They never use it. Why are Rockhome rulers so stupid? Because they are selected among Dwarves. I am so old that I can remember the time when Eriadna was a virgin. The Thyatian who smiles when things go wrong has found someone to blame for it. Ierendi, what a wonderful nation! I was inattentive for a moment and�zip! Nothing happened! When Glantrian commoneers make a riot, they first ask the wizards for a licence. Here in Esterhold we are so indipendent, now, that we can stay awake till late at night without telling Eriadna. What�s the difference between the Thyatian empire and the Alphatian empire? The first is the exploitation of humans by other humans, the second is the exploitatation of humans by other humans. If in Glantri honest men should rule, then it would be a Monarchy. If in Heldann intelligent men should rule, then it would be an Anarchy. Why didn�t vultures attack Stefan Karameikos in the desert? Courtesy between colleagues. Enter the Heldannic Knights, travel around the world, meet interesting people and kill them. One day I�ll have to enter in the mind of an Ylarian, to experience the feeling of True Void around me. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:58:59 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics In-Reply-To: <200001162143.XAA59896@gargoyle.sunpoint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:43 PM 1/16/00 +0200, you wrote: >> House of Ritterburg >> Allies: Herr Franz Lowenroth, Baron of Adlerturm; Herr Rolf von >> Graustein, Viscount of Blofeld; Lady Mariana Terlagand, Marchioness of >> Berrym; Sir Eachainn McDougall, Duke of Hightower. >> >Is McDougall here a mistake, you haven't counted him in the voting power of >the Ritterburgs. he is however counted in Crownguards voting power. >Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised if he would change his alliance >after Angus became a Prince, his interests are so similar with Jaggar's. You're right- it was a mistake. I originally had him switch allegiances for the reasons you cite, but then changed my mind after reading the GPD entry for McDougall (which had most of his political decisions being made by his representatives at the Parliament). Maybe I should have stuck to the original thoughts... :) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:23:48 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great work! Your three-part analysis will come in very useful. Much appreciated! I also like the updates and change in alliances you incorporated, truly reflicitng the changes of the times. One question about some of the names of the House and the Siege. All I have is GKoM and there are some differences in the names, particularly: Sablesteone: House Haaskinz, Siege Sablestone New Kolland: House Kol, Siege Blackstone Morlay-Malinbois: House Marais, Siege Morlay. Bramyra: House Krinagar, Siege Skullhorn Fenswick: House Hillsbury, Siege Fenswick >From this, you can surmise that House names come from the ruling family while Siege names comes from the place. I don't know what Gaz3 gives names to the noble Houses and their Sieges. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Now you didn't think those treacherous Caurenzans would be alled with those scholastic academicians forever, did you?" --Princess Dolores Hillsbury of Fenswick, Supreme Judge of the Council, to her rival, Prince Malachie du Marais, who suddenly realized the great shift in political alliances... which unfortunately seemed to favor Princess Dolores most of all ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:33:43 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara part One MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroletti To: Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 6:52 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Sarcastic Mystara part One Some not so funny, quite ironic jokes on Mystaran countries. Hahaha! Funny about the Alphatians. Not funny about the Glantrians. :< Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis I'll remember this name when you come visiting in Glantri. Kit Navarro Blacklister-in-Chief, Paparazzi Glantri fanvarro@pacific.net.ph "Oh! But Glantri can be a quiet peaceful place at night...when you're all alone in your own apartments." --overheard at a party, from Princess Carnelia de Belcadiz to a visiting Thyatian, who learned the hard way about Glantrian etiquette ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:01:05 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Okay, I have an expanded and improved version of my Eastern Gulf of Hule map now up on my site! It also has a legend key for the graphics. (A lot of which may not appear on the map.) I also added borders! The only problem I have now is labels. Beyond being time-consuming to drop them down, I have the added problem of clutter. At the moment the coast/river outlines are black, which pull the eye away. The original maps like this didn't have a coast outline at all, which meant black text was easy to spot. As it happens, I can do a version without black outline and with black text. I suppose the question is, any opinions? I've tried dark blue outlines in the past, they look kind of cheesy. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:04:33 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Opps... I should probably include the URL, eh? :) http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:57:05 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/00 8:19:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: [snip] << Alphatians The Alphie army is basically peasant levies, who when they actually attack get cut down in droves by the more disciplined Thyatians (there are exceptions, but thats the general rule). However, they have the magical plus. Tactics insofar as the use of ground forces is basically nil - whip the peasants towards the Thyatian line. Magically - the Alphies send cloudkills, stinking clouds and other nasty effects floating across towards the Thyatians, then try to exploit the gaps they create with troops. Solid Fogs are used to deny an area of ground to the Thyatians. Gust of Wind can be used to move these clouds about the battlefield to where they are needed.>> [snip] however you want to portray the war is fine. details of the war are kept at a minimum. however, i'd like to point out that the alpher forces are not poor peasant/conscripts backed by magic. DotE states that alpher forces are good and that each kingdom is renown for a particular troop type. the few references to the war also infer a competant military. attrition did play a heavy role, but not as human walls for the mages. in fact, if you look you'll see that magic...especially the grand council...was not a factor on the battlefield. imo...at least from inferences and materials...i'd have to say that the bulk of the actual battlefield fighting is done by well trained and well motivated troops....mostly fighters and a minority low level mages. it seems to me that when the alpher nobles have come into play the wars tend to go against alphatia. look at any turning point in a past war and you'll see defeat coincide to references to alpher mages. imo the mages are the alphers' own worst enemy. there's too much individuality and self interest involved, even if they can agree on a basic premise of acting directly in a battle. though i am not the biggest fan of the pwa OOBs in the armies sections, there are those post wrath examples of alpher forces. though reorganized by eriadna they should be recognized as being at least similar to wrath era units. as mentioned...this is not a direct slam of the way you handled the war. i just wanted to point out a few matters. likewise i think that thyatis should not be dubbed as losing to alpher magic. instead make their defeat a glorious war against a formidable enemy. the greater the enemy, the greater the honor and glory...even in defeat. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:21:01 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James Ruhland writes: >Hmmmn. . .but if the guys who play mages are the more cerebral types, then shouldn't they "handicap" themselves (see, playing any other class has become a "handicap"), and play one of the other classes? Fighters or Thieves, for example? Then you can't reach for the easy solution of the spell to solve this or that problem, you're left with (as I mentioned above) nothing but your sword arm and your wits - to solve your problem by ingenuity rather than by a list of spells ("Well, the door is locked, so to get through we will cast Knock.") A list of spells works for me because I'm fundimentally uncreative and unoriginal in my thinking - I can read over the spells and figure out how they can be used (conversely, I blow at thinking up new spells, but I do manage to use ones that are published or created by others). But true ingenuity? I'd think those who are truely ingenious would get more of a challenge, and have more fun, playing a fighter or thief. But you're right that in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm just curious as to why.< I whish I had the time to read through everything in this post, but I don't. This part however caught my eye, so I'll throw in my two cents worth. I'm not quite sure that your reasoning works here James, but I guess that it depends upon how your DM allows mages to be played. Sure, it's easy to look through a list of spells and find one that "does the trick," so to speak. If a problem exists, then a mage can probable either find or devise a spell to fix it. Playing a mage should not be that easy however. Sure there might be an infinite number of spells to choose from, but no mage (no matter what the level) is able to memorize an infinite number of spells. The mage must pick and choose from his available list. This is the challenge. The mage really has to pick the right list of spells even before the adventure begins. [I just know that this is going to make your skin crawl] It's like building a killer deck in Magic. If you pick a combination of cards that allows you to defeat the combination of cards that your opponent has chosen, then you've made the right choice. If you can do this on a consistent basis, then I geuss that you are really skilled at playing Magic. If you don't build the right kind of deck, then you get slaughtered. This is how playing a mage should be. [This desire to play the mage might also explain whay the game Magic is soo popular...?] Ok, hope I stired things up a bit... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:58:44 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Yet another site update... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Okay, after some quick hard work, I've added labels to my Eastern Gulf of Hule map. As I figured, the outline interferes with the text, so I colored it base water color and relayed it. The image is still kind of cluttered, but that's about what to expect with labels. I should add that I have the BMP's of every layer, so I can always reconstruct a non-labeled map anytime. BMP's are available upon request. Otherwise I think this is the style I'll probably post, it's the most useful. Happy gaming all! And if you have a map you'd in particular like to see done in this technique, drop me a line. I can't promise I could get to it right away, but I'll take on a challenge. IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:34:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics In-Reply-To: <003c01bf6089$823bb3c0$eaf317d2@fanavarro> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:23 AM 1/17/00 +0800, you wrote: > >One question about some of the names of the House and the Siege. All I have >is GKoM and there are some differences in the names, particularly: >Sablesteone: House Haaskinz, Siege Sablestone >New Kolland: House Kol, Siege Blackstone >Morlay-Malinbois: House Marais, Siege Morlay. >Bramyra: House Krinagar, Siege Skullhorn >Fenswick: House Hillsbury, Siege Fenswick > >>From this, you can surmise that House names come from the ruling family >while Siege names comes from the place. I don't know what Gaz3 gives names >to the noble Houses and their Sieges. The trend in Gaz3 was that the House name came from the name of the primary dominion (ex. House Sylaire, from the Viscounty of Sylaire). The seige name then became merely "Principality of Nouvelle Averoigne at Sylaire". This was the trend that I used in my House writeups, thus getting a few differences from the ones presented in G:KoM. Not a major change, it just depends on what you prefer, I guess. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:44:38 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: titan games stuff this week!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TSR: (D&D) (Basic Rules) B1: In Search of the Unknown (9023) [$16, VF] B6: The Veiled Society (9086) [$17.5, VF] (Challenger (Unified) Rules) Rules Cyclopedia (1071) [$22, VF] (Expert Rules) MSOLO2: Maze of the Riddling Minotaur (9060) (no pen)[$5.5, VF] X4: Master of the Desert Nomads (9068) [$9.5, G] X5: Temple of Death (9069) [$9.5, F] (Immortal Rules) IM1: The Immortal Storm (9171) [$9.5, F] (Misc.) AC1: The Shady Dragon Inn (9100) [$10, F] DDA1: Arena of Thyatis (9284) [$9, VF] -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:04:31 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Mischa E Gelman To: > > the Jennites > > Egalitarian IMO. If you go by my HWR, there's the slightest bit of > pro-male bias. Now that you mention it, I do remember something from the PWA about two rival Immortals of the Jennites: Rathanos who promotes masculine superiority, and Tarastia who promotes sexual equality. I think one of the things we can look at is the Immortals' views on gender bias and sexism. Vanya: Although the Patroness of Thaytis, and likely supportive of its patriarchy, she is the pro-female archetype and supports feminine strength and dominance. In Milenia (HWR3), she appears as Matera, a Patroness for Women, and her all-female priestesses, the Midwives, have powers specifically designed to undremine masculine superiority. IMO, Vanya as Matera is not really sincerely adovocating about the rights of the Milenian woman, but more concerned in destroying Milenia; she is just using the Milenian's sexist attitudes against them, to destroy both the men and the women of Milenia. Petra & Halav: In Milenia, and probably in other Traladaran cultures, these two chief Immortals are equal. Their relationship is perhaps the ideal relationship between man and woman, something the mortal Milenians fail to achieve unfortunately. As Petra is a Protectress of the Oppressed, her teachings are that women should not be oppressed, but she definitely does not approve of women dominating men either. Their rival in Vanya/Matera, who is using the differences of the sexes to destroy each other. Rathanos: Mucho macho patron of masculine superiority among the Jennites. His other worshippers, Nithians, Thothians and Alphatians, care more for his fiery energy aspect rather than this. In my writings about the Ochalean Immortals, he also appears as a chauvanistic Immortal supporting the patriarchy. Tarastia: Patroness of Justice and Equality. She is directly in conflict with Rathanos among their Jennite worshippers, promoting equality of the sexes. This particular teaching of hers is not as widespread in other cultures, like Thyatis and Milenia, perhaps because Vanya/Matera already espouses such teachings. In my writing about the Ochalean Immortals, she is also against Rathanos, but has been unable to gain support. Valerias: As the Patroness of Love, she would probably promote a harmonius relationship between the two sexes. But she is chaotic in nature and her actions seems to be undermining the efforts of other pro-female Immortals, such as Tarastia and Vanya. It would be not beneath Valerias to say, "It's OK to be down there, girls, just learn how to toy with your men using your feminine charms." and she would have no qualms in saying, "Girls, why try to pick up a sword to gain the respect of men (like that tomboy Vanya! Ick!) when we women can use beauty, finesse and mystique to get what we want." Valerias was doing just that, imho, in her trying to bid for being the Patronnes of Thyatis in AC 1016! Other Immortals? Most other Immortals have no care for sexism or gender bias. They probably view it as beneath their Immortal concerns. Again, as I am not as well-versed in other Immortals, I'd like to hear what the rest of you think, even about these Immortals in other cultures. I'd like to know about the all-female pantheon of the rakasta, about Hel, Frey and Freya, and the others. Kit Navarro fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:56:50 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >however you want to portray the war is fine. details of the war are kept at a >minimum. however, i'd like to point out that the alpher forces are not poor >peasant/conscripts backed by magic. DotE states that alpher forces are good >and that each kingdom is renown for a particular troop type. the few >references to the war also infer a competant military. attrition did play a >heavy role, but not as human walls for the mages. in fact, if you look you'll >see that magic...especially the grand council...was not a factor on the >battlefield. imo...at least from inferences and materials...i'd have to say >that the bulk of the actual battlefield fighting is done by well trained and >well motivated troops....mostly fighters and a minority low level mages. Reliance on magic is hardly a flaw, every adventuring party I have ever played or DMed for (they usually have at least two mages in them) use similar tactics. Just like the M1A2 main battle tank is the linchpin of the American armed forces, so the mage is the linchpin of the Alphatian armed forces. As for the battle of attrition, that sort of tactic was going in Vietnam, so it's hardly saying that the Alphies are primitive. I am merely saying that the Alphatian focus is on the mage, not the fighter. Of course there are exceptions, which is why I did caveat that statement in the original post. But the fact is, the Thyatian troops simply must have been individually of higher quality than the Alphatians. If they werent, Alphatia would have just rolled right over them (which, if you use the PWA OOBs, is exactly what would have happened). This did not happen, the war went on for nigh on six years. Therefore, either the Alphatian army must be significantly worse than as is listed, or the Thyatian army is significantly better. Reading DoE the only mention of the Alphie army is that it is left in the hands of capable fighter types, as the mages dont want to sully their hands of the messy affair. That implies to me, as the mages control the pursestrings, that the Alphatian army is probably low on the priority of the national budget. And Alphatia seems to lack a Prince Jaggar esque prominent mage with the influence to do anything about this. Finally, of course, you can't really infer too much defeatism in the Alphatian tactics. They won, after all, didn't they? >though i am not the biggest fan of the pwa OOBs in the armies sections, there >are those post wrath examples of alpher forces. though reorganized by eriadna >they should be recognized as being at least similar to wrath era units. I seriously doubt that. Look at the WW2 OOB for, say, the UK in 1939, and then again in 1945. Or for that matter 1914 and 1918. After 6 years of bloody conflict you would expect them to learn something, after all. I'm sure the Alphie armies as listed after reorganisation are significantly better off than those pre Wrath. In the light of the views of Alphatiaphiles on this list, illustrating how Alphatia has changed since the bad years before WotI, I would have thought this most appropriate. >as mentioned...this is not a direct slam of the way you handled the war. i >just wanted to point out a few matters. likewise i think that thyatis should >not be dubbed as losing to alpher magic. instead make their defeat a glorious >war against a formidable enemy. the greater the enemy, the greater the honor >and glory...even in defeat. Oh, I agree there. However, I disagree that Alphatia is the Sole Power of the outer world. If Thyatis hadnt been practically crippled by Valerias in the early stages, how would that war have gone? It went on for six years, and Thyatis lost some strategically stuff right at the beginning, and thats after their high command have been crippled. BTW, I'm looking forward to the Retebius Air Fleet vs Alphatian Sky Navy. Flash Gordon anyone? :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Weapon Mastery question Marco wrote: >I've got a little doubt in my head: when a person acquires a weapon mastery >in a weapon that can be used both one and two handed, should he spend two >slots to advance as one and two handed or just one to advance in both? IMC I ruled that weapons that are dual-purpose (like bastard swords) must be mastered separately in both forms. This is the price one pays for having a weapon that is more adaptable than others - if the wielder wants to take advantage of that added functionality. IMO this only makes sense - the techniques required to master a two-handed sword and a one-handed version are different; they require different stances, different body postions to swing them, etc. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:31:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara part One MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > I'll remember this name when you come visiting in Glantri. > > Kit Navarro > Blacklister-in-Chief, Paparazzi Glantri > fanvarro@pacific.net.ph > Hmm. Maybe my plans of a holiday in Glantri City should be cancelled. Or, when I get there, I'll tell only jokes on Alphathians. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:44:56 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > though i am not the biggest fan of the pwa OOBs in the armies sections, there > are those post wrath examples of alpher forces. though reorganized by eriadna > they should be recognized as being at least similar to wrath era units. > I have tended to believe that they are, too - or at least accepted that the person who wrote those units imagined them to be. But you have to take a step back and look at the total question: why is it that a nation (Alphatia) that is not known for its fighters & warriors are portrayed as having troops that are significantly higher level fighters than nations that are known for their fighters & warriors? The average level of the soldiers in the "Grand Imperial Alphatian Forces" Divisions (Alphatia's regular divisions) is a bit higher than 2nd. Conversely, the war-like Antalians (HW) are all 1st level, as are the Azcan regulars, Jennites (HW) average slightly higher than 1st level, Ostland, and Soderfjord regular troops are all 1st level. The level of the soldiers in the Heldannic Knights units average slightly less than 2nd (below that of the Alphatian units), etc, etc. I could go on (I haven't even mentioned the pittiful portrayal of the Thyatian troops in the PWAs - the assumption seems to have been that Alphatia in the HW could completely reconstitute a super-army in less than a year, also). The assumption of the designers at the time seems to be that because the Alphatians were. . . .well, were Alphatians, they were the best at everything, not just magic - better troops, more happy people, more enlightened, etc. As Rob said: > > I disagree that Alphatia is the Sole Power of the outer world. > (. . .Or, I would add, the Hollow World.) Which is what it got increasingly portrayed as, brainwashing a large number of Mystara-gamers in the process, it seems. Which is unfortunate. As Caroletti famously said: "I mean, it's a RPG, but does it have to be stupid?" Anyhow, I've mostly stayed out of this thread but this particular example cried out for a response. I now return you to your debate, already in progress. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:17:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara In-Reply-To: <000201bf60d7$91cb05e0$59f317d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Now that you mention it, I do remember something from the PWA about two > rival Immortals of the Jennites: Rathanos who promotes masculine > superiority, and Tarastia who promotes sexual equality. I think one of the > things we can look at is the Immortals' views on gender bias and sexism. Good idea. As most countries are guided by immortal teachings, this is important. What did Al-Kalim teach BTW? Is it discussed? > Vanya: Although the Patroness of Thaytis, and likely supportive of its > patriarchy, she is the pro-female archetype and supports feminine strength > and dominance. In Milenia (HWR3), she appears as Matera, a Patroness for > Women, and her all-female priestesses, the Midwives, have powers > specifically designed to undremine masculine superiority. IMO, Vanya as > Matera is not really sincerely adovocating about the rights of the Milenian > woman, but more concerned in destroying Milenia; she is just using the > Milenian's sexist attitudes against them, to destroy both the men and the > women of Milenia. I think that would be more of a Chaotic goal. She'd like the conflict, but I think she really wants to change the society more than destroy it. I don't believe Vanya's anti-male - many of her followers are men after all - in fact, now that I think about it, maybe her problem in Milenia isn't the lower status of women but the fact that not everyone can be involved in the military and roles of power. Perhaps she is merely seeking to expand those identities? > Rathanos: Mucho macho patron of masculine superiority among the Jennites. > His other worshippers, Nithians, Thothians and Alphatians, care more for his > fiery energy aspect rather than this. In my writings about the Ochalean > Immortals, he also appears as a chauvanistic Immortal supporting the > patriarchy. Sounds right to me. This is the image given in the primary HW book. > Tarastia: Patroness of Justice and Equality. She is directly in conflict > with Rathanos among their Jennite worshippers, promoting equality of the > sexes. This particular teaching of hers is not as widespread in other > cultures, like Thyatis and Milenia, perhaps because Vanya/Matera already > espouses such teachings. In my writing about the Ochalean Immortals, she is > also against Rathanos, but has been unable to gain support. I think she'd always be pro-justice/equal opportunity. In Milenia and Thyatis, she'd likely voice the same concerns, but she lacks the power and standing there that she has among the Jennites, which explains the more masculine bias in those lands. > Other Immortals? Most other Immortals have no care for sexism or gender > bias. They probably view it as beneath their Immortal concerns. Diulanna seems very pro-women's lib to me, breaking rules and norms that she felt were too limiting. For some reason, I think of Ixion as having a pro-male bias. Is this in any of the source materials or am I confusing him with Rathanos as usual? Looking at the HW books, I find it interesting that the chauvinistic Traldar downplay Petra's importance, making her more domestic and less of a warrior figure. - Mischa Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price....They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people. - Adam Smith ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Mystara Pronunciation Greg wrote: >Wendar: when-d-are (the last two sylables pronounced quickly together) or >maybe Wind-are ....or perhaps "WHEN-dar" >Heldannic: Hell-don-ick. It actually should probaly be hell-danny-k but its >been stuck in my mind as don-ick for too long now to change. :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:33:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystara Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <200001171641.LAA14633@freenet10.carleton.ca>; from au998@freenet.carleton.ca on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 11:41:10AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 11:41:10AM -0500, Geoff Gander wrote: > Greg wrote: > > >Wendar: when-d-are (the last two sylables pronounced quickly together) or > >maybe Wind-are > > ....or perhaps "WHEN-dar" I always pronounced it VEN-dahr gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:32:58 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Yucky dolls, insanity, and related topics Anyone interested in my preliminary rules governing insanity for the D&D Mystara setting can rocket on over to Shawn's site, at: dnd.starflung.com/insanity.html This article contains rules for Horror Checks, Horror Ratings, types of insanity, as well as some guidelines concerning how Mystaran society might treat insanity as a whole, and how asylums might be set up, as well. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:02:35 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > Again, as I am not as well-versed in other Immortals, I'd like to hear what > the rest of you think, even about these Immortals in other cultures. I'd > like to know about the all-female pantheon of the rakasta, about Hel, Frey > and Freya, and the others. > Well, the Bellaynish pantheon is composed by: Immortal Portfolio Belbion / Vanya War, honor, superiority of rakasta culture Felidae / Calitha Ocean, luck, travellers, elves Pax Bellanica / Tarastia Justice, peace Tawnia / Ordana Forests and Kagyar Dwarves Since Vanya and Tarastia are dominant, being strongly related to the traditional rakasta culture (Ordana being revered mostly by the Windham Forest "rebels", and Calitha being an immortal of elves and travels by sea, something rather uncommon for Rakastas). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:22:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: New Monster: Chaos Whelps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A new Nightmare Dimension monster Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis (thanks to Dethenor Torson of Corunglain for informations) CHAOS WHELPS Climate/terrain: Nightmare dimension/ Chaos merge Plains Frequency: Rare (Chaos merge Plains: common) Organization: Pack Activity Cycle: Nightmare day/ Prime night Diet: Carnivore Intelligence: Semi (2-4) Treasure: Nil Morale: 12 (6) or 20 (10) Alignment: Chaotic evil N�appearing: 5-20 AC: 3 Movement: 18 Hit Dice: 5+4 Thaco: 15 N�attacks: 1 bite, 2 claws, 1 horn, 1 tail Damage/Attack: 1d8+2, 1d4 (x2), 1d4+1, 1d6 Special attacks: Disease bite Special defenses: Immune to poison, paralysis, mind affecting spells Magic resistance: 90% The Chaos Whelps are a race of animal-like creatures of the Nightmare dimension. They are used as pets by many Nightmare inhabitants, and generally are employed as guardians to treasures and the like. In the Chaos Merge Plains they are common as free animals, but otherwise they are very seldom encountered. All the organization and activity cycle references are written considering the free Whelps: consider them equivalent to dogs in frequency between diaboli. The Chaos Whelps attack nearly always in pack: they never check morale if fighting for the defense of the master or of other members of the pack; if they are alone, or their master dies, they check normally the morale. Chaos Whelps don�t have any special attack, apart from the Pack Attack. When they attack in group, they have only one attack roll each five members. Every five Whelps attack one single opponent. The attack roll is made with a +1bonus to hit each five members of the pack. If one of the Whelps hit a Multiverse Creature, there is a chance that it transmits a tremendous disease that is called the Molecular Instability. Chaos Whelps encountered without a master have a 25% of chance of having this disease; if a pack is encountered, it is all infected. The disease is one that is much feared between diaboli; they seem to be the only creature of this Plane that can catch this illness, along with all Multiverse physical creatures (like humans). This lethal disease manifests itself in a continual change of features by its victim. Chaos Whelps that suffer from it generally mute colour, thickness of fur, number of eyes, tails and legs many times per hour. While Chaos Whelps can survive all their life with this illness, diaboli and Primes are not so lucky, and the rate of instability increases rapidly in 2-12 weeks, until the body of the victim is a horrible poor thing that continuosusly change its physical appearance, driving it utterly mad. The victim becomes in all regards a Berserker with 19 strenght [18/00 AD&D] after this time, and if it is not killed by his companions will transform itself into separate Nightmare dimensional molecules in 2-24 hours. It is to be noticed that the disease is not cured if the victim is removed from the Nightmare dimension and carried to the Multiverse; simply, the victim changes structure accordingly to the Multiverse�s physical laws. The disease can be cured only by Nightmare dimension clerics, or, when the character is taken to the Multiverse, by a cleric of level 15 or higher [12 AD&D]. Chaos Whelps normally live 10-15 years, a little more if in captivity and well treated (when kept by diaboli, for example). Diaboli clerics and veterinaries keep a watchful eye on Instable Whelps, and generally kill them when they cannot cure them. Chaos Whelps do not suffer insanity from the illness. It is not known wheter Outer Beings have sent Chaos Whelps to the Prime to further their mysterious plans; but being the incredible amount of terror Instable Whelps would cause to the Prime� ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:40:16 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Gordon McCormick wrote: > > Actually, just out of curiosity, how many people on > the list > use the future events of wrath/almanacs, and how > many use just > the 1000 AC stuff? Well, I'm primarily in the AC 1000 category. Although, I must confess to stealing some ideas here and there from WotI/PWA's/NA's, but as far as the setting itself is concerned, my borders are pretty well static... for now. Maybe someday I'll run WotI, but for now, it just causes too much upheaval in the setting for me to accomplish my long-term campaign goals. Good stuff though. I certainly appreciate the quality of work involved, even if I don't fully incorporate it into my own campaign. auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:53:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > I see the idea for a neutrality view, as long as it > doesn't reach the odd > "seeks to balance everything" perspective we got in > AD&D. I think most > folks IRL fit into the neutral category. > Agreed. But at the risk of sparking a philosophical debate (which is certainly not my intention), I think that to say that chaotic behavior or perspective is automatically "evil" is an over-simplification. I think that the current environment that "favors" chaotic alignments is a bit of a backlash toward the "long-standing" attitude that chaotic automatically means bad. I think that culturally speaking, people are more open to different perspectives now. While I think it's safe to say that, generally speaking, lawful behavior is the most beneficial for the society as a whole(I'm speaking towards RPG's here), occassionally a chaotic perspective can work without being entirely selfish. I think that's also what they were getting at in the Rules Cyclopedia with the slight re-write of alignments. Personally, I think that hints at the discussion we've all been having about most Mystara nations not necessarily being "good" or "evil". Of course, in my campaigns I've always favored law over chaos. But at the same time, I don't want to let things get too predictable... auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:04:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Nightmare Site Update Comments: To: Andrew Theisen , Geoff Gander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New updates on the Outer Beings Site at www.geocities.com/area51/Neptune/3107/ Changed Zhocal to Zhochal Put the right name of a writer (Susan changed to Sharon) Put Blackflame and the Hin by Andrew Put first part of Outer Beings article by Geoff (excerpt from Insanity & OB) New monster: Chaos Whelp by me (also sent to the list) Some correction to some link Put Dark Spawn (Minion of Rashtz the Many Mouthed). More to follow soon Giulio N. Caroletti aka Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "So he didn't actually take the characters and places from the film out of his own campaign, as you might expect. Instead he based the world of Izmer and Sumdall, where the movie, takes place from one of TSR's older, obscurer campaign worlds, Mystara. " http://scifi.ign.com/feature/3530.html Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:14:52 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the slight re-write of alignments. Personally, I think > that hints at the discussion we've all been having > about most Mystara nations not necessarily being > "good" or "evil". > Which is fine and even benificial to the richness of the setting when things are actually portrayed that way. However, I'm begining to reach the conclusion that though we all tend to say "most Mystaran nations are not necessarily 'good' or 'evil' but instead are shades of grey," whenever one gets to specific examples or specific events, or specific trends, it becomes clear who are supposed to be the "white hats" and who are supposed to be the "black hats" - in other words, the conventional wisdom is wrong, subverted in effect by all of us in each specific instance. Well, not "all of us" because there are people who run a multifaceted Mystara where who the "good guys" are and who the "bad guys" are isn't always clear, but it just isn't the case that Mystara has been depicted that way, however often we say it is. It's like Mischa's retort when I mentioned that "some" of the Gazeteers portrayed things in very black and white terms with most of the villians in some "ghetto" for them to be contrasted with the rest of the society being described, the "good" portion, and he replied (I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember his exact wording) "you mean almost all of the Gazeteers, right?" Same with the PWAs - it's very obvious who are intended to be the "benign" nations and who are the tomato-can "villian" nations who exist for the sole purpose of being torn to pieces by the "good" ones. Shades of grey? Not black and white? It's time we set asside the conventional wisdom as wrong. And if we *want* a Mystara that is composed of "most Mystara nations not necessarily being 'good' or 'evil'." then we'll have to realize we have to do that ourselves - in the specific instances. Otherwise the generalization will continue to be a false impression - the Mystara as it can be, but not Mystara as it actually is down in the details of how things really work out and are portrayed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:23:47 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow... well, I hope for all of us that it doesn't blow chunks. :) IronWolf SteelAngel wrote: > > "So he didn't actually take the characters and places from > the film out of his own campaign, as you might expect. > Instead he based the world of Izmer and Sumdall, where the > movie, takes place from one of TSR's older, obscurer > campaign worlds, Mystara. " > > http://scifi.ign.com/feature/3530.html > > Ethan > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:53:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:05:37 -0500 SteelAngel writes: > "So he didn't actually take the characters and places from > the film out of his own campaign, as you might expect. > Instead he based the world of Izmer and Sumdall, where the > movie, takes place from one of TSR's older, obscurer > campaign worlds, Mystara. " > > http://scifi.ign.com/feature/3530.html > > > Ethan Really? Weird. Couldn't they at least have gotten the names right? Oh well. It looks like we're going to have _lots_ of fun trying to fit the movie into Mystara. Let's see... if Izmer was an alternate name for Alphatia... Like I said... barrels of fun. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:21:24 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-16 17:13:35 Eastern Standard Time, megst19+@PITT.EDU writes: << I see the idea for a neutrality view, as long as it doesn't reach the odd "seeks to balance everything" perspective we got in AD&D. I think most folks IRL fit into the neutral category. >> Trying to balance "good" and "evil" is madness -- but trying to balance "law" and "chaos" in the right way (as in "This part of life should be governed by strict laws, while this part should be left to individuals to do as they please") is a necessary part of civilized life. We all do that to some extent -- and I suspect that the biggest difference between a "lawful" person and a "chaotic" person is just where the line is drawn. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:56:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-17 05:47:11 Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << Valerias: As the Patroness of Love, she would probably promote a harmonius relationship between the two sexes. But she is chaotic in nature and her actions seems to be undermining the efforts of other pro-female Immortals, such as Tarastia and Vanya. It would be not beneath Valerias to say, "It's OK to be down there, girls, just learn how to toy with your men using your feminine charms." and she would have no qualms in saying, "Girls, why try to pick up a sword to gain the respect of men (like that tomboy Vanya! Ick!) when we women can use beauty, finesse and mystique to get what we want." Valerias was doing just that, imho, in her trying to bid for being the Patronnes of Thyatis in AC 1016! >> You seem to have overlooked one of the titles of Valerias in WotI: "Girder On of Weapons". From all that I have read about her, she seems to espouse pacifism among her enemies and then stir up the passions of those she likes to make war on them. BTW -- Frey is a male Immortal, brother to the female Freya. As presented in all relevant Mystara material, they clearly espouse equality between the sexes, as they and their respective priests are completely equal in all but the most trivial details. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:48:53 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: SteelAngel To: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 5:05 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] READ THIS!!! > "So he didn't actually take the characters and places from > the film out of his own campaign, as you might expect. > Instead he based the world of Izmer and Sumdall, where the > movie, takes place from one of TSR's older, obscurer > campaign worlds, Mystara. " Hmm... Izmer? Sumdall? So, am I being a dense Alphaphobic Glantrian or is there still some part of that Rad-forsaken continent that we haven't destroyed yet? :) Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:19:05 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-17 21:52:59 Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << Hmm... Izmer? Sumdall? So, am I being a dense Alphaphobic Glantrian or is there still some part of that Rad-forsaken continent that we haven't destroyed yet? :) >> The movie seems to have some features inspired by Alphatia but not actually based on it. While "Sumdall" may be an archaic form of "Sundsvall", I am fairly sure that Alphatia never had an empress who could wear armor as Savina evidently does. From the available information, Izmer clearly seems to be a hodgepodge with elements drawn from Alphatia, Thyatis, Glantri, and perhaps other nations and not a faithful representation of any one of them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:21:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been done for Alphatia, it's been done for Thyatis, so I said, why not Darokin. So I present to you, the complete list of: The Kings of Darokin The Eastwind Dynasty (22-87 AC) 22-34 AC Ansel I Darokin, the Eastwind (slain in an orcish raid, his death caused a crisis of leadership among the humans) 34-36 AC Charles I Anismont, the Black (usurper, slain by Ansel II) 36-38 AC Ansel II Darokin, the Valiant (son of Ansel I, murdered by a supporter of Charles) 38-42 AC Natana I Darokin, the Widow (wife, regent for son until his coming of age) 42-87 AC Anos I Darokin, the Old (son, first King to die a natural death) 87 AC Aden I Darokin, the Foolish (son, slain by orcs near Fort Nell) The Time of Three Kings (87-102 AC) During this period, their were three lines claiming kingship: The Darokin Line 87-91 AC Aden II Darokin, the Unprepared (cousin of Aden I, slain by soldiers of the Anismont Line) 91-102 AC Natana II Darokin, the Priestess (daughter, abdicated in favor of Corwyn I) The Anismont Line 87-95 AC Charles II Anismont, the Bold (usurper, slain in a duel with Natana II) 95-102 AC Zendrolion I Anismont, the Timid (son, abdicated in favor of Corwyn I) The Attleson Line 87-89 AC Anders I Attleson, the Inventor (usurper, died in battle with orcs) 89-102 AC Corwyn I Attleson, the Elf-friend (son, proclaimed King of a united Darokin) With that began: The Attleson Dynasty (102-723 AC) 102-122 AC Corwyn I Attleson, the Elf-friend (proclaimed King, died of natural causes) 122-169 AC Corwyn II Attleson, the Stormrider (son, died of natural causes) 169-188 AC Mithras I Attleson, Son of Storms (son, died in a hunting accident) 188-203 AC Corwyn III Attleson, the Intrepid (cousin, died of natural causes) 203-207 AC Emilia I Attleson, the Beautiful (daughter, abdicated in favor of husband) 207-248 AC Corwyn IV Darokin, the Historian (husband, died of natural causes) 248-292 AC Mithras I Darokin, the Spoiled (son, died of natural causes) 292-303 AC Mithras II Darokin, the Builder (son, poisened by wife) 303 AC Amanda I Darokin, the Black Widow (wife, abdicated due to controversy over poisining) 303-367 AC Corwyn V Attleson, the Righteous (distant relative of Emilia I, died of natural causes) 367-384 AC Corwyn VI Attleson, the Wizard (son, died in a "labratory accident", to use Glantrian terminology) 384-396 AC Mithras III Attleson, the Suspicious (brother, died of natural causes) 386-400 AC Corwyn VII Attleson, the Sickly (son, died of natural causes) 400-412 AC Corwyn VIII Attleson, the Friendly (cousin, assasinated by a Traladaran) 412-415 AC Corwyn IX Attleson, the Warrior (son, slain in battle with Traladarans) 415-422 AC Corwyn X Attleson, the Regal (son, slain by orcish marauders) 422-423 AC Corwyn XI Attleson, the Archmage (cousin, abdicated in favor of Corwyn XII) 424-467 AC Corwyn XII Attleson, the Trader (son, died of natural causes) 467-480 AC Mithras IV Attleson, the Warbringer (son, slain by an elven archer) 480-503 AC Mithras V Attleson, the Burner of Forests (son, slain by elves) 503-534 AC Corwyn XIII Anismont, the Peacemaker (distant cousin, died of natural causes) 534-567 AC Charles III Anismont, the Anxious (son, died of natural causes) 567-598 AC Anders I Anismont, the Conquerer (son, died of natural causes) 598-632 AC Ansel III Anismont, the Soldier (son, died in battle with orcish marauders) 632-648 AC Emilia II Anismont, the Weaver (sister, abdicated in favor of husband due to sickness) 648-657 AC Aden II Anismont, the Vampire (husband, fled when discovered as a nofesteratu, may potentially survive to this day) 657-689 AC Ansel IV Attleson, the Incompetent (cousin, died of natuaral causes) 689-712 AC Santhral I Attleson, the Gardener (son, died of natural causes) 712-723 AC Santhral II Attleson, the Last King (son ,died of natural causes with no heir) And for completeness, the next rulers of a united Darokin: The Chancellors of Darokin (927 AC- present) 927-932 AC Charles Mauntea (elected, died of natural causes) 932-949 AC Lydia Mauntea (wife, died of natural causes) 949-971 AC Vardon Kalimi (elected, resigned due to old age, later died a natural death) 971-975 AC Corwyn Hoff (elected, died under suspicious circumstances) 975-988 AC Rypien Hallonica (elected, died of natural causes) 988 AC- the present Corwyn Mauntea (elected, still living) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:18:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/16/00 7:13:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << >mass combat and adnd/dnd are not really cohesive. it may be different if the >mid to high pc/npc was alone facing an oppossing unit. in that aspect, >numbers are eventually going to wear the pc down, especially missile weapon >attacks. however if the hero is acting in conjunction with other troops, >attention is not squarely upon him and he can address the opposing troops in >more manageable numbers. with weapon mastery, greater numbers of HPs, and >other skills/enhancements the hero can wreak havoc on enemy troops as he is >directly met by only a handful of 1 or 2 HD soldiers. as he goes through the >carnal assembly line, he really has to only worry about the enemy's hero >getting to him. In Red Steel, musketeers are a great equaliser. I challenge any fighter to charge a line of 10 musketeers (assuming he is not wearing grotesquely magical armour, impervious to bullets) and come out standing.>> Even arrows in large quantities prove to be nasty. Overbearing attacks against the high level fighter always work well too. Also bear in mind that though the high level fighter may be safe behind his hit points, the peons he is fighting alongside may not. So he could find himself dangerously exposed when he looks around and all his buddies are dead. Plus - he is a Hero. He's going to be pretty visible on the battlefield I think, he's not just Johnny Soldier. So he WILL attract a lot of attention from the enemy. In a world where heroes exist, I imagine the enemy know what heroes can do, and have some nice little take downs already prepared.>> whether facing muskets, arrows, or thrown kiwi fruit the almighty hero is still facing a group of npcs. the threat against him/her diminishes as he/she is accompanied by more troops (safety in numbers). though the hero is visually different than his rank and file compatriots, the other troops are as threatening to the charged line as the hero. the defending troops cannot focus all of their attentions on the hero without exposing themselves to the other troops. so it becomes a trade off...focus on the hero and hope to kill him through attrition/overwhelming attacks or addressing the rank and file troops and the hero as a singular unit. missile weapons are a key to this as distance and rate of fire make up for discrepancies between rank and file and hero hps and thac0. however, close in fighting has the hero at an alarming advantage against 1st or 2nd level troops. a strategy may be to focus missile fire (at least a large portion) towards the advancing hero...weakening him. alot depends on numbers and how the troops compare against each other. > < defenders fall back at one point you usually strengthen your attack there to > cause a breach. Your assault troops are now a perfect target for > annihilation by magic.>> > >magic can be used by both sides. but why assault the walls when the attackers >can use magic to bypass them. teleport in with some choice troops or NPCs >and bypass the walls entirely. other spells can be utilized as well. combat >is a series of tactics and counter tactics. magic is just another addition to >the weapon inventory and probably has been integrated into the military >tactical scheme. the winner usually being who can use their weapons to out do >the enemy. one also has to factor in casualties versus gains. if by >sacrificing 100 troops to use up a mage's spells removes him from the battle, >that is an acceptable loss. the mage is either forced into melee or must >flee. he is not a factor until the spell inventory is replenished. and >victory is easily closer. it sounds cruel, but that's war. You are assuming that no defences against magic have yet been invented. Most dungeons in modules these days for high level characters seem to prevent teleportation effects. In a world where any mage with dim door can breach a castle, don't you think the defenders have their own defences? The Glantrian Wall with No Doors spell has been liberally deployed IMC on the frontline to prevent such sneak attacks. The Thyatians have their own equivalent IMC which bounces the would be teleporter back into the Astral Plane. And of course we have spells like Forbiddance, and the clerical Focus spell which can be cast on a temple (all castles IMC usually have a shrine to Vanya or some war Immortal - and temples are notoriously hard to crack!).>> on the contrary that is what i am pointing out. if one side uses magic then the other side has the opportunity to use magic. the possession of magic does not insure victory. instead, the practical use in war legitimizes or wastes magic. iirc the PS Blood Wars may have the most lavish examples of counter magics due to the armies being composed of demons and fiends. this keeps the teleport ability at a near nonfactor as the fiend lords wage their wars. obviously such wards would have to be present in most mystaran noble houses. however, i think that the threat of what forces are inside should also be a factor. <> hence the reason for fighting mages to be supported by regular fighter troops. range is a big factor in spells. an all mage for could be easily outranged by a group of longbowmen. but with a contingent of their own archers, counterfire is brought into play. a charge being complicated by the fire brigade that developesa as the charging troops come into range of the spells. << I'm only in 1006AC IMC and I already reckon that the 1000 Wizards of Alphatia are getting some attrition - say, a couple of percent. The PCs have dropped a couple, I can only assume that similar stories are going on on the rest of the planet. And unlike Johnny Soldier, you can't just draft in a replacement.>> oh yes...i agree attrition on a mage units is a handicap. that's one reason i see their use in conjunction with sword and shield toting troops. remember that these mages (even low level) are alphatia's ruling class. they are going to take every precaution at insuring that their survival is insured. lots of well trained troops around them. and the use of monster summoning type spells to fill the ranks if need be. but as mentioned in another message, i have my doubts about how heavy a role the 1,000 Alph mega mages actually played in the actual fighting of the war. i have to think that most mid- to high level mages were being held back for glantri or possibly the HKs. however that stage of the war was scripted as not coming to term. all you really had was zandor's call to the 1,000 to bombard glantri city which was likewise used to script alphatia's end. > < manoeuvre rather than large easily disabled forces? After all they've had > over 2000 years to work on the problem in some cases.>> > >it depends on the definition of maneuver. a flanking maneuver is a flanking >maneuver whether it is done by greek light infantry or by modern mechanized >infantry. maneuvers are essentially the same, the difference comes in the >weapons and means they are carried out. as far as ability to maneuver, the >ethie are the kings, followed by the ylari. however, their focus on cavalry >leaves the wanting in regards to infantry which is needed to exploit cavalry >gains. other peoples, especially the renaissance era ones, are more balanced >and possess more refined tactics and weapons. Given the army lists, they are usually infantry, with a bit of supporting cavalry. Modern wars of maneuver came about in WW2 when Nazi Germany thought of the innovation of motorised infantry - by which the tanks could keep up with the infantry instead of vice versa.>> well there is the rub....modern wars of maneuver. manuever has been an issue of war throughout history. modern warfare just utilizes the industrial mechanizations to provide widespread issue of vehicles and weapons. WW1 started as a war of movement using first train transport then marching. the distances and resistance turned this war of movement into a trench war. WW2 saw the introduction of the allied dubbed "blitzkreig" which was in fact just a refinement of earlier german tactics based upon the new weaponry developed in the 20s and 30s. the truck, tank, and airplane being the most notable developements/refinements. <> well there are numerous kits that could used. each gaz even cites specialized local class deviations that could translate into a mobile mage. >most pwa styled armies with a heavy magical contingent, seem to focus on low >level mages and the use of 1st level spells in quick volleys before being >pulled back. magic missile is a prefered favorite of mine. as the enemy comes >into range....facing normal missile volleys....they are struck by a magic >missile volley. though not fatal to a 1HD fighter a single hit does take away >a chunk of the trooper's hit points putting him at a distinct disadvantage >when he makes it to the enemy lines. if numbers allow, the mages could >overlap their spells to tag team charging troops, killing as many as half the >number of enemy as there are mages in the ranks. take it to the level of >boltmen, and you have a steady flow of magic missiles. a group of 100 boltmen >could easily destroy an opposing force of 500 troops. Depends what the boltmen are armed with. In AD&D at least, I would much rather take a longbow than a wand of magic missiles. And those boltmen are vastly outranged by missile weapons. I would not say its easy for those boltmen to annihilate 5x their number. In an open field where visibility is not a problem, those boltmen would be cut to pieces by arrows before they even got close enough to fire the first volley. (I believe Melfs Acid Arrow is one of the longest ranged spells in AD&D, at 180 yards. Magic Missile is about half this. Given a musket has a range of 360 yards, and a longbow only a little less than this - and given that longbows have a rate of fire of 2, and that the troops firing them will probably be specialised (WILL be specialised in the case of Thyatians) I wouldn't underestimate the power of the archer. Especially if those boltmen are mages, meaning they will be killed by a single hit. Very crudely, 1000 arrows a round, we'll give the boltmen the benefit of an armour spell - even at long range thats 100 hits on the boltmen (50 assuming they are in cover). If you assume double damage on crits then those 50 crits will kill, the other 50 may kill. Well, thats your 100 boltman force covered there I'm afraid, after one minute of arrow fire from long range. Another reason for said boltmen to be hiding in a trench :)>> well boltmen are usually based aboard skyships. given that most were conveniently razed during wrath without firing a shot, it is feasible that they would have found their use as a foot soldier mage, distributed among the rank and file of fighter troops. thus their trenches become the human and steel walls of their fighter troops. their spells being used as a short to medium range weapon to compliment the longer range of the archers. as for their use in destroying a force 10x their number it is feasible. however i must clarify a few things. first "destroy" is not indicative to the slaying of the force to a man. the casualty rate of an opposing force can destroy a force, either through rout or surrender. and not that casualties are not exclusive to death. wounded also apply...and i think that a 1HD fighter automatically hit by a magic missile has to be contemplated as a wound. second, number of shots cast at a charging enemy. with a range of 60 yards +10 per level, even a 1st level boltman has the time to unleash several bolts. i roughly quote from the PHB page 128 "In a combat round a being can move up to 10x its movement rate...thus a character with a movement of 9 can move 90 feet in one round. However, the types of moves a character can make during combat are somewhat limited." so a charging character with a 9 movement would need 2 rounds to cover the base range of the magic missile...more with loss of initiative and having to cross any obstructions. trying to fire while charging slows movement, further add in direct exposure to magic missile fire. so yes...i would say that the boltmen could easily inflict enough casualties to destroy the charging force (rout or surrender). >t opposition has to be aware of this and either attack in overwhelming >numbers or maneuvers to get their troops into their ranks where melee favors >the fighter. in some ways its like assaulting a machine gun nest. aware of >this, the mage force would have an attachment of normal infantry to help >cover the mages. an example of this is the use of bayonet musket troops to >support the non bayonet equipped long rifles of nepoleonic warfare. The alternative is for the nonmagical troops to hang back and liberally pepper the area with arrows. (Or catapult fire, which could have all sorts of interesting payloads - even if not magical, try casting a spell Mr Mage when covered with burning naptha, or sprayed with contact poison - all of which any chap with Alchemy proficiency can make).>> likewise...the boltmen would also have support troops around them. we're talking about renaissance era warfare....which did see multifacetted troop types. no simple phalanxs siding up and slugging it out. <> well...i don't have CoM handy but iirc bolttmen are given as having wands of magic missiles (among others) which are kept fully charged by the head boltmen/mages to 10 or 20 charges. another thing is range. as i don't have CoM handy, i cannot be sure but i think that range was heightened to reflect the level of the mage that enchanted/created the wand. anyway...a bow or crossbow can outrange the base 60 yards of the magic missile, however the bow requires a hit roll and range modifiers whereas the magic missile is a hit. <> once again kits and S&P can make for a mage capable of casting from the saddle, casting faster, aboard a ship, or casting amid the chaos of a battlefield. however we are speaking of boltmen armed with "point and click" wands of magic missiles. ADnD is full of exceptions and variations to the rules. being a magic based empire, the alphers would implement as much magic into their forces as they could. 2000+ years offers ample time to implement and adapt spells, troops, and mages into an army. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:19:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Ah...Old Memories Renewed. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit last weekend i had the opportunity to do something i have not done in some time; i actually sat down with some friends and ran an adventure. a buddy, who used to play, was in town for the weekend. we got together with another fellow to shoot the breeze about the old days over a few beers and watch the nfl playoff games. after stomaching a quarter and half of the Miami vs. Jacksonville game, we fired up the computer and started playing around online. Mystara related mails drew their attention and after explaining the Real World/Mystara connection i showed them the Mystara sites. our conversation turned to the old gaming days. before long we had pulled out some of the materials and were refamiliarizing ourselves with the rules and reminiscing over old campaigns through several modules. since we had decided to go out that night, we decided to get together sunday and try to play an adventure. sunday came and we began play, me DMing and the two other guys running two PCs each. i used the three part "Towers of Evil" (ThunderRift) and alterred it to meet a Mystaran campaign premise we had messed with years earlier. in short, it dealt with a fighting organization known as the Order of Trahl which is a secret order with the quest to fight sentient undead. for centuries this order assaulted the undead nests from several strongholds out in the world. anyway...we established that the Order was fiercely counterattacked by the undead. all but one stronghold was overrun. personally i penned this decline to the chaos brought by wrath but the other guys have no real knowledge of wrath...the party quit playing before it was printed...so that aspect was never really brought up. anyway....the party was tasked by the surviving Order members to travel to the stronghold that "Tower of Terror" had been made into, clear out the undead and whatever else was inside and collect any information on what happened. for that i contrived a a tome with an account of the assault and some leads to who was behind it. it was a hard campaign....and admitedly it was not ran or played as smoothly as we had wanted. we were pretty rusty and had to go to the rule books more than we had wanted. not to mention "the hand" made my DMing more difficult. but the main thing is that we had fun. that we three got together to roll the dice was a fluke at best. i seriously doubt we'll be able to do it again for some time. buddy #1 went back to his home out of state. buddy #2 is married, has a couple kids and works more hours than i do. anyway...it did bring back to mind the Order of Trahl. time allowing i may post some of the info on Trahl. looking over it....its age is definitely showing so i have to clean it up and update parts. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:31:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin [The Banes of not Proofreading] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:21:39 -0600 Aaron E Nowack writes: > It's been done for Alphatia, it's been done for Thyatis, so I said, > why not Darokin. So I present to you, the complete list of: [snip] Gack, do I feel stupid. I just realized that there are two Mithras I's in there. Please consider the "second" Mithras I to read: 248-292 AC Anos II Darokin, the Spoiled (son, died of natural causes) And two Aden II's! The "second" Aden II should read: 648-657 AC Aden III Anismont, the Vampire (husband, fled when discovered as a nofesteratu, may potentially survive to this day) Hopefuly that's it. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:38:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Half-elf genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heredity of Mystaran Half-Elves The "Elves of Alfheim" gazetteer strongly suggests that the traits of "elvishness" or "humanness" are passed down on the same chromosomes that determine sex. For a normal mating between two humans, the results are as follows: Xh Yh x Xh Xh = Half Xh Yh (male human) and half Xh Xh (female human) Similarly, a normal mating between two elves has the following results: Xe Ye x Xe Xe = Half Xe Ye (male elf) and half Xe Xe (female elf) If a human mates with an elf without Immortal intervention, then we get the results described in the "Elves of Alfheim" gazetteer. First, let us consider the case of a mating between a male elf and a female human: Xe Ye x Xh Xh = Half Xh Xe (female with mostly human characteristics) and half Xh Ye (stillborn male -- apparently this combination is not viable) If a male human mates with a female elf, we get: Xh Yh x Xe Xe = Half Xe Xh (female with mostly human characteristics) and half Xe Yh (male with mostly elven characteristics) The surviving offspring of these matings introduce two new combinations (Xe Xh and Xe Yh) who may mate with humans, elves, or each other to produce viable offspring. The results of these matings are as follows: Xe Xh x Xh Yh = Quarter Xe Xh (female with mostly human characteristics) and quarter Xh Xh (female human) and quarter Xe Yh (male with mostly elven characteristics) and quarter Xh Yh (male human) Xe Xh x Xe Ye = Quarter Xe Xe (female elf) and quarter Xh Xe (female with mostly human characteristics) and quarter Xe Ye (male elf) and quarter Xh Ye (stillborn male) Xe Yh x Xh Xh = Half Xh Xe (female with mostly human characteristics) and half Xh Yh (female human) Xe Yh x Xe Ye = Half Xe Xe (female elf) and half Xe Yh (male with mostly elven characteristics) Xe Yh x Xe Xh = Quarter Xe Xe (female elf) and quarter Xe Xh (female with mostly human characteristics) and quarter Xe Yh (male with mostly elven characteristics) and quarter Xh Yh (male human) Engledoc Dewsap's mother was an Xe Xh female, while his father was the Xh Yh offspring of an Xe Yh x Xe Xh mating -- which makes Engledoc an Xe Yh. Immortal intervention has created two sorts of half-elf. On the Savage Coast, the Immortals homogenized and made dominant the characteristics of a half-elf, resulting in the combinations of X* X* for females and X* Y* for males. The "*" characteristic is dominant and causes any offspring with that characteristic on either sex chromosome to be a half-elf. Only if this characteristic is missing from both sex chromo- somes can the offspring express full elvish or human characteristics. In Davania the Immortal Mealiden created a race of Amazon warriors to protect his elven followers. These Amazons had the XA XA chromosome combination and normally mated with male elves, as follows: XA XA x Xe Ye = Half XA Xe (female Amazons) and half XA Ye (males who miscarry before the mother knows she is pregnant) Next generation: XA Xe x Xe Ye = Quarter XA Xe (female Amazons) and quarter Xe Xe (female elves) and quarter Xa Ye (males who are miscarried as before) and quarter Xe Ye (male elves) Male elven offspring are turned over to their fathers at birth, while femal elven offspring are turned over when their slow growth makes it apparent that they are elves and not humans or Amazons. Amazon matings with male humans have the following results: XA XA x Xh Yh = Half XA Xh (female Amazons) and half XA Yh (males who miscarry early in pregnancy) Next generation: XA Xh x Xh Yh = Quarter XA Xh (female Amazons) and quarter Xh Xh (female humans) and quarter XA Yh (miscarried males) and quarter Xh Yh (male humans) Male human offspring are turned over to their fathers at birth, while female human offspring are brought up as though they were real Amazons. The most likely human-Amazon mating would produce the following results: XA Xe x Xh Yh = Quarter XA Xh (female Amazons) and quarter Xe Xh (female humans carrying elven characteristics) and quarter XA Yh (miscarried males) and quarter Xe Yh (male elves) The male elven offspring are turned over to their fathers, who probably prove unequal to the task of raising them. The female human offspring are brought up as though they were real Amazons. Crossing human-bred Amazons back with male elves results in the following offspring: XA Xh x Xe Ye = Quarter XA Xe (female Amazons) and quarter Xh Xe (female humans carrying elven characteristics) and quarter XA Ye (miscarried males) and quarter Xh Ye (stillborn males) Those Amazons who lack the "XA" chromosome are physically weaker than "real" Amazons and usuallt do not survive or are prevented from mating by other Amazons -- they are trained as mages (if they are have any elven ancestry) or as clerics (otherwise) and are sworn to vows of chastity and celibacy in either case. Summary: "A" chromosomes are incompatible with "Y" chromosomes and causes miscarriage very early in pregnancy. In combination with any other "X" chromosome they produce strong and viable Amazon (human) warriors. "*" chromosomes dominate all other chromosomes and result in true half-elves. In the extremely unlikely event that a girl child is born with the "XA X*" combination, she is a female Amazon warrior who shares the best characteristics of a human and a half-elf. The Xh Ye combination is lethal and results in a stillbirth. The Xe Yh combination results in a male offspring who looks like a half-elf but has mostly elven characteristics. The Xe Xh combination results in a female offspring who looks like a half-elf but has mostly human characteristics. Characters of mixed ancestry who lose all elven or human traits from their sex chromosomes may show physical signs of their mixed ancestry but for most purposes should be treated as elves or humans as appropriate. Does the preceding leave out any information that might apply to Mystaran characters of mixed elven and human ancestry? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:32:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hmm... Izmer? Sumdall? So, am I being a dense Alphaphobic Glantrian or is > there still some part of that Rad-forsaken continent that we haven't > destroyed yet? :) > > Kit Navarro I love this man. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Capatain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:43:14 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Tactics vs Magic - I hate it when I use the wrong email account! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>whether facing muskets, arrows, or thrown kiwi fruit the almighty hero is >still facing a group of npcs. the threat against him/her diminishes as he/she >is accompanied by more troops (safety in numbers). though the hero is >visually different than his rank and file compatriots, the other troops are >as threatening to the charged line as the hero. the defending troops cannot >focus all of their attentions on the hero without exposing themselves to the >other troops. so it becomes a trade off...focus on the hero and hope to >kill >him through attrition/overwhelming attacks or addressing the rank and file >troops and the hero as a singular unit. missile weapons are a key to this .>as >distance and rate of fire make up for discrepancies between rank and file >and >hero hps and thac0. however, close in fighting has the hero at an alarming >advantage against 1st or 2nd level troops. a strategy may be to focus >missile >fire (at least a large portion) towards the advancing hero...weakening him. alot depends on numbers and how the troops compare against each other. Well, I've seen it happen. A high level hero can always run afoul of something as simple as a hold person off a 3rd level priest. 1 2 or 3 is always a fail in high level campaigns :) And its hard to draft in replacement heroes as well. >>on the contrary that is what i am pointing out. if one side uses magic then >>the other side has the opportunity to use magic. the possession of magic >does >>not insure victory. instead, the practical use in war legitimizes or wastes >>magic. iirc the PS Blood Wars may have the most lavish examples of counter >>magics due to the armies being composed of demons and fiends. this keeps >the >>teleport ability at a near nonfactor as the fiend lords wage their wars. >>obviously such wards would have to be present in most mystaran noble >houses. >>however, i think that the threat of what forces are inside should also be a >>factor. Well, yes, the possession of magic does not insure victory. I thought that was what this whole thread was about... >> <> specialised in longbow troops plugging him at the start of every round, >> disrupting his spells. (This is what I was on about with those >sharpshooter >> units earlier). With a dispel magic and a good roll, the mage is dead - >and >> mages are not "expendable assets".>> >> >>hence the reason for fighting mages to be supported by regular fighter >>troops. range is a big factor in spells. an all mage for could be easily >>outranged by a group of longbowmen. but with a contingent of their own >>archers, counterfire is brought into play. a charge being complicated by >the >>fire brigade that developesa as the charging troops come into range of the >>spells. Sharpshooter units arent new, they were using that sort of thing in Napoleonic times to strike at enemy officers. Agreed insofar that it is a play of tactics. However, reverting to the WotI issue, which was the original point to this thread, I would say that the Alphatians tactics, once again, revolve around the fighters covering the mages who dish out damage. Which is basically what you are saying, just in a more flowery way :) >><< I'm only in 1006AC IMC and I already reckon that the 1000 Wizards of >> Alphatia are getting some attrition - say, a couple of percent. The PCs >> have dropped a couple, I can only assume that similar stories are going on >> on the rest of the planet. And unlike Johnny Soldier, you can't just >draft >> in a replacement.>> >> >>oh yes...i agree attrition on a mage units is a handicap. that's one reason >i >>see their use in conjunction with sword and shield toting troops. remember >>that these mages (even low level) are alphatia's ruling class. they are >going >>to take every precaution at insuring that their survival is insured. lots >of >>well trained troops around them. and the use of monster summoning type >spells >>to fill the ranks if need be. but as mentioned in another message, i have >my >>doubts about how heavy a role the 1,000 Alph mega mages actually played in >>the actual fighting of the war. i have to think that most mid- to high >level >>mages were being held back for glantri or possibly the HKs. however that >>stage of the war was scripted as not coming to term. all you really had was >>zandor's call to the 1,000 to bombard glantri city which was likewise used >to >>script alphatia's end. No, I agree that the 1000 have certainly not all got invovled. But there are more than that in Alphatia. Just because the archmages havnt deigned to acknowledge the war doesnt mean to say that the midlevels and lowlevels arent heavily involved. And there must be some militants in those 1000 wizards... When thinking about what would be on the battlefield I kept the levels generally as low as possible really (while still providing a challenge to the PCs). The highest level mage I used actually in the fight was level 7, but there were quite a few mages around the level 3 area. Enough to make a difference. >> Given the army lists, they are usually infantry, with a bit of supporting >> cavalry. Modern wars of maneuver came about in WW2 when Nazi Germany >> thought of the innovation of motorised infantry - by which the tanks could >> keep up with the infantry instead of vice versa.>> >> >>well there is the rub....modern wars of maneuver. manuever has been an >issue >>of war throughout history. modern warfare just utilizes the industrial >>mechanizations to provide widespread issue of vehicles and weapons. WW1 >>started as a war of movement using first train transport then marching. the >>distances and resistance turned this war of movement into a trench war. WW2 >>saw the introduction of the allied dubbed "blitzkreig" which was in fact >just >>a refinement of earlier german tactics based upon the new weaponry >developed >>in the 20s and 30s. the truck, tank, and airplane being the most notable >>developements/refinements. In WW1 the war of maneuver bogged down quickly because a) there were enough troops in use to garrison a line from coast to coast b) the lethality of the weaponry meant that cover was essential. Armour did not really exist at that point. The American Civil War, for example, didnt have this problem because you had a relatively small army on a very big continent. If General Lee had enough troops to cover America from East to West, something similar might have happened. (WW1 was just mind boggling in scale). However, on the Isle of Dawn the actual fighting line, from Helskir to around the Aran plateau, is not actually actually very long, and the Thys and Alphies probably have enough manpower to set a line up stretching all the way along. War of maneuver? Where are they going to maneuver? The Alphies have no skyfleet, and I assume that the Thyatian surface fleet (and Retebius air fleet, and Heldannic warbirds) are superior to the Thyatian naval assets. (The Alphies try to crack the fleets later in the war after a bit of rebuilding - they lose). They have chosen to leave Norwold out of it, I notice, but maybe thats because the Thys on the Isle of Dawn require all Alphatian troops to be present just to hold em off. When Helskir joins Alphatia, presumably this allows a rapid flanking maneuver which encircles and breaks the northern Thyatian line. And when the Alphatians start rolling the line up, heading south, the Thyatians find themselves in real trouble. This is the point in the timeline when the Thyatians start losing - aside from the early loss of some strategic locations due to incompetence, of course. > <troops. >> In this way, I suppose they would be the equivalent of the Paras or >> something - they would deploy troops to strategic positions, who would >then >> have to hold said position until they can get some support from the >regular >> troops.>> >> >>well there are numerous kits that could used. each gaz even cites >specialized >>local class deviations that could translate into a mobile mage. Yeah, but 1 mobile mage is not a problem. I'm talking about shifting military units of troops about - say, a couple of hundred individuals. >> Depends what the boltmen are armed with. In AD&D at least, I would much >> rather take a longbow than a wand of magic missiles. And those boltmen >are >> vastly outranged by missile weapons. I would not say its easy for those >> boltmen to annihilate 5x their number. In an open field where visibility >is >> not a problem, those boltmen would be cut to pieces by arrows before they >> even got close enough to fire the first volley. (I believe Melfs Acid >Arrow >> is one of the longest ranged spells in AD&D, at 180 yards. Magic Missile >is >> about half this. Given a musket has a range of 360 yards, and a longbow >> only a little less than this - and given that longbows have a rate of fire >> of 2, and that the troops firing them will probably be specialised (WILL >be >> specialised in the case of Thyatians) I wouldn't underestimate the power >of >> the archer. Especially if those boltmen are mages, meaning they will be >> killed by a single hit. Very crudely, 1000 arrows a round, we'll give >the >> boltmen the benefit of an armour spell - even at long range thats 100 hits >> on the boltmen (50 assuming they are in cover). If you assume double >damage >> on crits then those 50 crits will kill, the other 50 may kill. Well, >thats >> your 100 boltman force covered there I'm afraid, after one minute of arrow >> fire from long range. >> Another reason for said boltmen to be hiding in a trench :)>> >> >>well boltmen are usually based aboard skyships. given that most were >>conveniently razed during wrath without firing a shot, it is feasible that >>they would have found their use as a foot soldier mage, distributed among >the >>rank and file of fighter troops. thus their trenches become the human and >>steel walls of their fighter troops. their spells being used as a short to >>medium range weapon to compliment the longer range of the archers. >>as for their use in destroying a force 10x their number it is feasible. >>however i must clarify a few things. first "destroy" is not indicative to >the >>slaying of the force to a man. the casualty rate of an opposing force can >>destroy a force, either through rout or surrender. and not that casualties >>are not exclusive to death. wounded also apply...and i think that a 1HD >>fighter automatically hit by a magic missile has to be contemplated as a >>wound. second, number of shots cast at a charging enemy. with a range of 60 >>yards +10 per level, even a 1st level boltman has the time to unleash >several >>bolts. I agree that the boltmen are on ships, which puzzled me why their use was cited at all, but I had to answer. However I had to reply. A wand of magic missiles is inferior to a longbow in almost every respect. Thats just a fact of the AD&D system. >>i roughly quote from the PHB page 128 "In a combat round a being can move >up >>to 10x its movement rate...thus a character with a movement of 9 can move >90 >>feet in one round. However, the types of moves a character can make during >>combat are somewhat limited." > >>so a charging character with a 9 movement would need 2 rounds to cover the >>base range of the magic missile...more with loss of initiative and having >to >>cross any obstructions. trying to fire while charging slows movement, >further >>add in direct exposure to magic missile fire. so yes...i would say that the >>boltmen could easily inflict enough casualties to destroy the charging >force >>(rout or surrender). ? No, you miss my point. It will be the boltmen running towards the superior ranged archers, not the other way around. If the boltmen stayed where they are, they would be peppered at long range. >> >t opposition has to be aware of this and either attack in overwhelming >> >numbers or maneuvers to get their troops into their ranks where melee >> favors >> >the fighter. in some ways its like assaulting a machine gun nest. aware >of >> >this, the mage force would have an attachment of normal infantry to help >> >cover the mages. an example of this is the use of bayonet musket troops >to >> >support the non bayonet equipped long rifles of nepoleonic warfare. Or alternatively, they could stay back and fire arrows. Its more like if the other guy has a combat shotgun, and you have a sniper rifle, you stay back. >> The alternative is for the nonmagical troops to hang back and liberally >> pepper the area with arrows. (Or catapult fire, which could have all >sorts >> of interesting payloads - even if not magical, try casting a spell Mr Mage >> when covered with burning naptha, or sprayed with contact poison - all of >> which any chap with Alchemy proficiency can make).>> >> >>likewise...the boltmen would also have support troops around them. we're >>talking about renaissance era warfare....which did see multifacetted troop >>types. no simple phalanxs siding up and slugging it out. Indeed. However, I maintain that the Alphatian army is probably woefully inadequate at the start of Wrath in such regards. You seem to be making out that the Alphatian army is a smoothly oiled machine, well versus in combined arms tactics, capable of dealing with any situation. This is a Chaotically aligned nation. A STRONGLY chaotically aligned nation. Whose entire character and function is built around the mage. A smoothly oiled machine does not fit in here (it puzzles me while Alphatiaphiles think it should? I like Alphatia personally. I like it because its just weird. All these eccentric archmages running an empire, the possibilities are limitless. I don't like it because of its sheer obscenity however. I direct those who favour it for these reasons towards Athas or Toril). Incidentally, I've got an interesting about Alphatia in my campaign. When the players first heard about, the immediate response was, in not so many words, "Thats just ridiculous. Such a powered empire is just infantile, I thought that sort of thing was done by 16 year old kids.". In fact, it dented Mystaras otherwise excellent reputation because there was always the riposte when a discussion about how good Mystara was along the lines of "But Mystara has Alphatia and its thousand wizards. Sad.". However, now they know a bit Alphatia's character, having been there, fought them on the front, and met a few notables, that attitude has changed. Alphatia as described in DoE has character, you can't deny that. It is what rescues it from being a transparently thin transplant from the Realms or something, a childish Uberempire. (No disrespect to Realms fans, each to his own.) And besides, the two Superpowers are supposed to have different character. Thyatis is the nation which is entirely based around war and fighting. Alphatia is something completely different. The tactics you mention however might be far more appropriate for the Thyatians, who presumably have thought about this problem a lot, being a warlike nation and "worshipping an Immortal called Efficiency". >well...i don't have CoM handy but iirc bolttmen are given as having wands >of >>magic missiles (among others) which are kept fully charged by the head >>boltmen/mages to 10 or 20 charges. another thing is range. as i don't have >>CoM handy, i cannot be sure but i think that range was heightened to >reflect >>the level of the mage that enchanted/created the wand. anyway...a bow or >>crossbow can outrange the base 60 yards of the magic missile, however the >bow >>requires a hit roll and range modifiers whereas the magic missile is a hit. At 60 yards plus 10 yards per level, you will have to be an archmage to get parity in range. I assume that the luckless mages driven from their studies to mass produce wands of magic missiles will be around the minimum level required to make the things, so we are talking around level 9 I believe for a wand. >> <harassed >> in any way while casting a spell. For example, a mage cannot cast from >> horseback unless he has assistants steadying him in the saddle, he could >not >> cast while standing on a ship in heavy swell, and he probably could not >even >> cast in a really heavy thunderstorm. A bit like the fighter aircraft of >> WW2, which were often grounded by bad weather. >> >> >>once again kits and S&P can make for a mage capable of casting from the >>saddle, casting faster, aboard a ship, or casting amid the chaos of a >>battlefield. however we are speaking of boltmen armed with "point and >click" >>wands of magic missiles. ADnD is full of exceptions and variations to the >>rules. being a magic based empire, the alphers would implement as much >magic >>into their forces as they could. 2000+ years offers ample time to implement >>and adapt spells, troops, and mages into an army. Ahh, S&P. Well, the less that about that the better. I'm talking about mages here - you know mages? the guys in the Players Handbook? That have graced this game since the seventies? Lets leave the modern equivalent of cavaliers and assassins out of it. The Alphatians have had 2000 years of zzonga munching and decline, for the most part (OK, I'm being harsh - maybe only around 1000 years, but its the 1000 recent years). Not honing their combat tactics. If thats what they were doing home come they kept getting wasted by the Thyatians? I cant find any kit in 2nd edition, excluding "Munchkin Heaven" S&P, which lets a mage cast in any of the situations I mentioned. Presumably Alphatian boltmen in AD&D would be of the Military Wizard kit - which gives em some more hit points, a worthy thing to have in a battle. But not any ability to cast in adverse conditions. Sure, you could make a kit that helps, but thats changing the rules. I would agree with you that probably a mage with horseback riding (perhaps a Glantrian Military Wizard) could perhaps cast spells on horseback. From a stationary horse, however, I can't envision spellcasting on the back of galloping charger somehow. There's this little thing called "game balance", otherwise translated as "the mage does not the rule the world". Fact is, in theory if you have 100 fighters versus 100 mages, in an ideal world they should be equal. Its merely a question of style. And if they arent equal, because the pendulum has swung too far in one direction or another, than something should be done about it. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:38:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Munther, Sven" Subject: Re: Thyatis City: Images. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" All, Regarding images of Thyatis City: Have anybody considered to use the very neat City of Greahawk product as replacement for Thyatis City. There are some great maps (with a Coliseum) and a lot of nice details about a big city that cannot be that different from Thyatis City. Do anybody see any obvious problems in this? Sven (normally a lurker) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Hofmann Subject: Dominion Spreadsheet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Bruce Heard wrote up an Excel spreadsheet that covers his dominion ruling ideas in the Known World Grimoire, but I can't seem to find a copy of it. I thought that I saw something like that on dnd.starflung.com, but when I downloaded it, it was shipbuilding or something non-dominion related. If anyone has any clues on where to look, I'd appreciate them. Or, if I'm completely mistaken, let me know, and maybe I'll just write my own (not in Excel though). John Hofmann ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:20:46 +0100 Reply-To: tsarlat@picasso.etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Dominion Spreadsheet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was such a file , you would better ask him (bruce) directly for it. John Hofmann a �crit : > I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Bruce Heard wrote up an Excel > spreadsheet that covers his dominion ruling ideas in the Known World > Grimoire, but I can't seem to find a copy of it. I thought that I saw > something like that on dnd.starflung.com, but when I downloaded it, it was > shipbuilding or something non-dominion related. > > If anyone has any clues on where to look, I'd appreciate them. Or, if I'm > completely mistaken, let me know, and maybe I'll just write my own (not in > Excel though). > > John Hofmann > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Join me at: mystara@com.bi or at tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:56:44 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatis City: Images. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .> > Regarding images of Thyatis City: Have anybody considered to > use the very neat City of Greahawk product as replacement for > Thyatis City. There are some great maps (with a Coliseum) and > a lot of nice details about a big city that cannot be that different > from Thyatis City. > Um, No. Greyhawk City has a very different atmosphere (and size) than Thyatis City. I like the Greyhawk box, but it's probably more appropriate as a substitute for Darokin City than Thyatis City (though a few of the Universities in Greyhawp should probably be swapped out if it is used to represent Thyatis City). Thyatis City should have a more "classical" feel, perhaps. If I was to substitute a map of any published city and use it as the basis for Thyatis City it would probably be Judge's Guild's old "City State of the World Emperor" (though that one would be too small; the harbor is definately too small, but then so is Greyhawk City's harbor). Calimport would be "ok" but the map is sucky for Thyatis City, IMO. Too many random buildings and not enough monumental buildings or appropriate avenues. But it does have the right "scale" (though the pop. wouldn't be anywhere near 2,000,000 if used for Thyatis City). Shoonach in the same general area might be a good choice, for certain campaigns. > > Do anybody see any obvious problems in this? > However: no, not really, if that's what fits in your campaign then that's what you should do. If Greyhawk City is, in your campaign, a good representation of what you imagine Thyatis City to be like, then you should use it. Why let it go to waste? It's a matter of style, which varies from campaign to campaign. Greyhawk City just wouldn't work well for "my" Thyatis City, but if it does for yours then go for it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:02:44 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dominion Spreadsheet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Bruce Heard wrote up an Excel > spreadsheet that covers his dominion ruling ideas in the Known World > Grimoire, but I can't seem to find a copy of it. I thought that I saw > something like that on dnd.starflung.com, but when I downloaded it, it was > shipbuilding or something non-dominion related. > You actually have the right file; the Shipbuilding spreadsheet is just the first one that comes up when you open it, and the Dominion portion is unobvious (kind of hidden). Click the "help doc" tab at the bottom lefthand corner of the page. "Budgets" is what you want - there will be a button for that, clicking that button will bring up the "Population & Income" page which is the dominion portion of the document. I have some observations to make about the Spreadsheet & Budgets but I'm holding that for when Bruce gets back. It actually works very well - except for Dwarven-type domains. There's some tax quibbles I have, too, but it should work for anyone who isn't a total pedant (such as myself) - as long as you follow the "Silver Standard" taxation rules B.H. developed in the VotPA collumns. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:45:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In fact, a few things I have read showed more gender bias in the authors than in the people described -- for example, in G:KoM notice that bizarre remark about Vanserie's brother Anton (supposedly a fighter) giving up his claim to Linden in favor of Juliana -- never mind that Juliana was the obvious heir and >that Anton as a supposed mundaner would have had no claim at all. Where exactly does it say Anton is a mundaner? Is it G:KoM? Gaz3 IIRC describes "him" as a mage (well Ragnaar is a mage/dragon anyway). Puzzeled Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:13:50 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do = not appear in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by = now things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" (Harmonium compaired to Sensates in Plainscape being the clearest = example of this role-reversal, but by no means the only one). What caused this change? Is it in part related to my questions = #1 & #2 >above? I can't answer most of your questions, though I agree with you whole = heartedly. But one thing could be this- RW people have changed and the setting had = changed with them.=20 While Lawful charechters where the top of the bunch in the conservative = 80's, the 1990's were a decade that valued individuality and self = centered thinking. Suddenly the old Karameikan Paladin was replaced by the Vilaverdan = swashcuckling thief.=20 The knights of the Griffon where replaced by the students of The = Karameikan school of magic. In the last days I have intervieud two of my potential players and asked = them what they whould like to play. One player said he wanted to play a love obssessed Darokian = swashbuckling archer-thief type. He comes to Glantri in search of his = beloved. The other one whants to play a noble mage who is disowned for following = dark magic. (Im thinking of making him a Belcadizian half elf in the = GSoM who stumbles upon the secret craft of Necromancy and getting = involved with my favorete NPC, Boris Gorevits Woszlani). I think the other players (probably 3 more) will think off even more = "alternative" charechters.=20 I have no idea as of now of how to get them together. My players asked = specificaly not to be thrown into a jail together stripped of there = belonging (OK so I did it to them a couple of times in the past why are = they so anal about this?). Anyway I hope you see the relevence here.=20 Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:55:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara part One MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Enter the Heldannic Knights, travel around the world, meet interesting people and kill them. > This one really made me laugh! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:47:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all. Speaking of spells as easy contributions to the game, I have = another one! As usual, comments are welcome (even ones like " I don't like this spell = at all"). ************************************ Cocoon (AD&D- Alternation/Necromany or Chronomancy) Level: 9 Range: 0 (caster only) Duration: special AoE: caster The name of the first creator of this spell is lost in time. Sages = beleive it was already known in extremely archaic eras, maybe as far = back as Lhommar. Corrent to 1016AC the spell is only known as fractions = of magical writings in the libraries of Glantri and Thyatis. This spell is one of the most effective although rarly used ways to = enhance one's lifespan. If the campaign is set in Glantri, the spell can = be discovered as a 5th circle belonging either to necromancy or alchemy. Casting this spell requires a long ceremony lasting at least 24 straight = hours. Any destruptions will ruin the spell and the ceremony must start = anew. The spell requires a number of rare ingredients the caster must = consume at the climax of casting. The most important ingredients are a dragons egg-shell and the blood of = a human baby younger than 8 days (there is no reason for the baby to die = in the prosess though). After the consumption of the ingredients the caster is able to produse a = gooey silk- like substance from his/her fingers. The caster than has to = shape the silk around his/her body to shape a cocoon. The formation of = the cocoon and its hardening take about 3 hours. After the Coccon has = hardened it becomes a dimensional warping artifact.=20 The cocoon exists both in the material plane and in the astral while the = dimention of time will start affecting the caster in reverse: result = leading to cause. All biological processes will start working backwords = in the casters body. For every year the caster spends in the Cocoon its = body becomes one year younger. Wounds and deseases heal, and even lost = lims are regenerated. The caster will stay in the Cocoon for the number = of years equel to his age minus 21. At the end of that period the caster = will emerge from the Cocoon with his/her body the way it was when the = caster was 21 years old. During the years in the Cocoon, the caster = needs not drink nor sleep. He is awere of its surrounding very vaguely. = After coming out of the Coccon the caster will be aware of only the most = monumental events which have happened during his "sleep" (great wars, = apocaliptic disasters and so on). The Cocoon is almost impervious to = damage from outside. It is hard enough to stand pressures of several = tons. Ordinary weapons, fire and acid can not harm the Cocoon. The = Cocoon can be harmed by magical weapons of more than +3 enchantment, in = such a case it has 100 hit points. A wise magic user will use Contingencies and wards to protect his/her = Cocoon. The time the caster emerges from the Cocoon could be very traumatic to = the caster. A wisdom check must be made in order to remain sane after = the process*. *Use either Geoff Gander's insanity rulls or the ones given in the = Ravenloft campaign setting. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:35:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: <01BF61E9.FCEFA020@Hrz-24-170.inter.net.il> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, [iso-8859-1] =E0=E9=EC=EF =F9=E7=ED wrote: > But one thing could be this- RW people have changed and the setting had > changed with them. While Lawful charechters where the top of the bunch > in the conservative 80's, the 1990's were a decade that valued > individuality and self centered thinking.=20 Um, the 80s were widely known as the "Me" generation and gave us such selfless things as Madonna, Reagan, trickle-down economics and Trump. They were just as chaotic then as now. If you're looking for lawful eras, check out the populists, the civil rights movement and like events. =20 - Mischa We bought the [S.O.B] and then he did not stay bought - Henry Frick, discussing Teddy Roosevelt=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:28:55 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> I know that that was in the original Gaz3, but then, the author didn't make use of the RC skills system. It was listed as an advanced course at the Great School. I've enjoyed this post-thread alot. Especially the earliest in portraying the "magical battle field in a new and interesting light. We've declined a bit into the Pro v Anti- Alphatia topic, but thanks to all for the insight into the modern (AC1000) battlefield. My only contribution would be to point out morale,more than any other factor, I think, will decide who can or can't charge a _______ (add in your own paticular nasty opposition, be it summoned/trainedmonsters, magic-users, concentrated archers, etc) once the blood starts to fly. Most soldiers won;t know their HPs they've left,&most won't take the insane risks most players are willing to. So leadership and fear will drive these armies, and maybe the boys on any given day don't have what it takes. For me, Alphatia is just big weird and mysterious, while Glantri, given the size and opposition it faces, is the more organized Magical War Machine, if only for its own survival. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:41:40 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/01/00 17:29:00 GMT Standard Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: > Hey all. Speaking of spells as easy contributions to the game, I have another > one! > As usual, comments are welcome (even ones like " I don't like this spell at > all"). > > ************************************ > Cocoon (AD&D- Alternation/Necromany or Chronomancy) Very nice indeed, Ohad. This could be a fun way of getting one of a party's "old" enemies to come back, years later, much younger and fresher than the middle-aged heroes who beat him last time.... One question though; since it reverses so many other things, could the spell (perhaps as a random side effect) remove acquired levels from the user? Nasty surprise for that Archmage, if so; waking up able to cast little more than a Magic Missile (heh heh heh...;-) Good work! Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:44:54 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I've enjoyed this post-thread alot. Especially the earliest in portraying the "magical battle field in a new and interesting light. We've declined a bit into the Pro v Anti- Alphatia topic, but thanks to all for the insight into the modern (AC1000) battlefield. Heh, well, things normally seem to do just that around here ;) I was only putting forward an opinion in response to Paul Dooleys first post, then we started a lively debate :). Thats what happens when you get 180 fans on the same list each with different views. The joys of the free world :) In my hypothetical scenario I was really trying to illustrate both the strengths and weaknesses of the two armies. They are from very different nations, and it is likely that they will have very different methods of fighting. One side may discard one battlefield option as not interesting, while the other may place great stock in it. I quite enjoy hamming up the various Mystaran nations, to really bring out their character. It helps make them memorable to the players, though it may have the side effect of making their portrayal a little extreme. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:03:12 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my hypothetical scenario I was really trying to illustrate both the strengths and weaknesses of the two armies. They are from very different nations, and it is likely that they will have very different methods of fighting. One side may discard one battlefield option as not interesting, while the other may place great stock in it. I quite enjoy hamming up the various Mystaran nations, to really bring out their character. It helps make them memorable to the players, though it may have the side effect of making their portrayal a little extreme. Rob raises an interesting point. With enough time, rule books, and evil genius, we could all keep coming up with the "punch-counter punch" of ways to counteract the last poster's Fantasy Battlefield Tactic. But lets look at the nations of Brun in a different light. Given the descriptions built up in print and on the web, adding RW facts&figures, what would be the given strength or weakness of each given nation's armies, in broad terms? I'm really interested in what each nation has uniqely its own that would effect the outcome or make them distinctive to the military observer. Take into account national resourses, proclivities, etc, One example . . . I find the number of longbow wielding forces ridiculous, even for Brun (including PCs in this). So where in Brun do the feared Longbowmen come from? RW England/Wales gave the forces of the Plantagenat (sp?) kings something no other European king could match. But factors such as time to train, scarcity of numbers etc, made them a valuable commodity for the English. So what is out there . . . ? More than War Machine #'s please. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:18:24 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fenswick: House Hillsbury, Siege Fenswick Someone stated recently that the Hillsbury family (the real ones, that is) are from Laterre. C'est vrais? Ou est la source de cette information? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:59:54 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One example . . . I find the number of longbow wielding forces ridiculous, > even for Brun (including PCs in this). > I think longbows come into play for two reasons. Only one of them really applys, because I don't think the designers thought of the other when they were giving longbows to this or that nation's units: 1) As Rob alluded to, weapons with both good ranges and a good rate of fire are more nessissary in a world where guys can point sticks at you and hurl missiles at fair ranges. Longbow gives more troops a much better chance of survival (btw, while we're on this topic - I think Rob's point was that the "mundane" troops wouldn't be 100% cooperative with the needs of the opposing mages, and kindly walk into the range of their spells and form up so they could be dispatched in the most efficient manner possible. Especially since given the specific example used in those exchanges, WotI, the Thyatian forces are on defence and it is the attacking Alphatian's "job" to assault the Thyatian positions and drive them back.) But anyhow I don't think this was what the designers were thinking when they handed out longbows to every nation and their uncle. 2) The romance of the longbow - that meant each writer for Mystaran products tended to have his nation or nations have the longbow as one of their weapons, in effect "because it is so cool, and my guys are cool, so obviously they use longbows." Ok, so that's phrasing it humorously for effect. You get the point. If I had my way (and I sort of do), the Thyatian armies would use composite bows (long for foot types, short for horse types - or perhaps specially made long ones for cavalry); that's what the ByzantinoRomans typically used (having adopted them from their nomadic neighbors & opponents, and from the Parthians/Sassanid Persians). DotE "Player's Guidebook of Thyatis" says they use longbows, but like I said just about every gaz that mentions armies is festooned with references of longbow-armed missile troops. In the best of all possible worlds only a couple nations would use them (and, *NO*, one of them would *NOT* be Alphatia; that would fall under the category of "because they are Alphatians they obviously are the best at everything") - probably the elves and few others (Bellayne for obvious reasons). But we take the world as it is, so I expect the widespread use of longbows in Mystara is just one of those things that's hear to stay. One could say that the Thyatians, because of their association with/alliance with the Vyalia elves (c.f. Foresters) adopted the longbow from them for use against Alphatia's spellcasting units, but as I said if I had my druthers (and I sort of do) they'd use composite bows instead. Of course, if everyone and their uncle keeps using longbows dispite your admonishment that the use of the longbow should be restricted, then I don't see any reason why the Thyatians shouldn't keep it as well. Most nations should use shortbows, probably. Or in the KW region crossbows should be prevalent (but probably with beefed up damage. ROF is fine, but damage seems a bit low). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:06:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara part One MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ���� ��� ha scritto: > > > Enter the Heldannic Knights, travel around the world, meet interesting > people and kill them. > > > > This one really made me laugh! Well, I'm glad you liked it. But maybe it is not so funny, if you think that it was used by RW pacifists in 1979. Obviously there were no Heldannic Knights. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:01:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 367-384 AC Corwyn VI Attleson, the Wizard (son, died in a "labratory accident", to use Glantrian terminology) > Maybe also by Glantrian (Fleamish/ Brajerian) competetion? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:11:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well I was reffering to Lawful as "conservative". The YAPi (sp?) era. Strong right in most countries, Pop music and the like.... -----Original Message----- From: Mischa E Gelman [SMTP:megst19+@PITT.EDU] Sent: =E2 =E9=F0=E5=E0=F8 18 2000 19:36 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RPGs: What Happened? On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, [iso-8859-1] =E0=E9=EC=EF =F9=E7=ED wrote: > But one thing could be this- RW people have changed and the setting = had > changed with them. While Lawful charechters where the top of the bunch > in the conservative 80's, the 1990's were a decade that valued > individuality and self centered thinking.=20 Um, the 80s were widely known as the "Me" generation and gave us such selfless things as Madonna, Reagan, trickle-down economics and Trump. They were just as chaotic then as now. If you're looking for lawful = eras, check out the populists, the civil rights movement and like events. =20 - Mischa We bought the [S.O.B] and then he did not stay bought - Henry Frick, discussing Teddy Roosevelt=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:03:56 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Tales from the Front - the Eve of the War MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, curious about the War are you? Well, for the price of a pint of that excellent mustard ale... Ahh, excellent my young man. I do so hate to talk with a dry throat these days... Anyway, where to begin? Old Diogenes has seen quite a lot in his own youth, I can tell you... Well, when the war broke out at the start of 1005 I was but a humble worker in a textile mill in Port Lucinius. They always needed strong cloth for the sails, you see, so there was a lot of call for people there who could weave. Well, making sails might be good for some people, but when the call to arms came out and the Emperor asked every able bodied man in the Empire to do his part, I went straight over to one of the barracks and enlisted. Before too long I was part of the 3rd Reserve, and they set us to work training. I never was much of a rider, so after the first test I ended up in the sixth cohort - heavy infantry. So happened, with the naval base nearby, I didn't even get to travel, they had us at it in the fields just outside the town. It was even worse than the mill, I tell you - I mean, I didn't mind all the exercise, but the constant drilling - close order drill was the worst, to this day I never knew why that was a part of... Whats that? Ahh, the impatience of youth, you want to hear about the fighting parts, eh? Well, alright then. Well, as you know, West Portage fell within a couple of weeks, to the shock of everyone in Port Lucinius. That was bad for the Empire of course, but it did mean that they moved us out from Lucinius straight over to the Isle of Dawn, which meant no more of this "officer" with the gold braid shouting in my ear all the time. Well, anyway, apparently the high ups were convinced the Alphatians weren't going to pause at West Portage, so to cut a long story short we ended up in some little wood south of Newkirk, just at the foot of a few low hills. Well, our Commander, man named Cornelius who had been in the infantry probably since the days of Zendrolion (well, he looked like it anyway), wasn't too happy about that and had to go to Newkirk where our great Praefect was based to get us moved somewhere else. A bit of firebrand, was Cornelius, he wanted us to hit the Alphatians while they were regrouping at West Portage, but the High Command wasn't having it. Pity what happened to him, if we had more like him the War would have been different, I reckon. Anyway, seems he didn't try hard enough, because we were sitting in that forest for nigh on two months. We heard some pretty dismal stories from troops coming past us from further east, skirmishers, but we hadn't even seen one Alphatian foot soldier at that point. Well, one day me n Olwen, young man they brought up from the Hinterlands just a few weeks before, were up in the observation tent up on that hill, when we saw a dust cloud off to the east. It was early in the day, and the cursed sun stopped us from seeing exactly what it was. So I left Olwen up there while I went back to the cohort down in the woods so I could report, where, seemingly by coincidence, the Commander was back. Said he felt that something was up, and at his age he had learned to rely on his instincts. Well, he moved the entire cohort just behind the top of the hill, and we lay in wait there, for whatever it was. Well, it was cavalry of course, Alphatian. Never did know exactly what division they were from, but they were some sort of scout unit. Cornelius sent a runner off to the north, to find the Fourth, who were supposed to be covering our flank, but the cavalry were moving a lot faster than we thought and they were almost upon us by nightfall. Not having much choice, having been ordered by the praefect to mind these woods, we ambushed them in this little cut off on one side of the hill, where they tried to ride up. We sent a volley of javelins into them, which certainly gave them a shock, I can tell you. We thought we were pretty well concealed in the trees and in the boulders, but they seemed to see us anyway, and before too long I was standing there, Olwen at my side, with what looked like about fifty cavalry lances aimed at me. Anyway, where was I? Hmm, this mugs getting a mite empty again, I don't suppose... Hmm, seems they pay you a lot more than the legions ever payed me... *chuckle* Well, of course, I'm still here, so I didn't end up skewered by some cavalrymans lance point. There were a lot less than I thought at the time, you see, by the time they got to the tree line our archers had thinned them out quite a lot. A couple of lancers got into the trees, one of them just a couple yards over to my right. Course, being green and all, I forgot everything that I was supposed to learnt back at Lucinius and Olwen and I left our place and we went over to try and stop him. The Alphie was looking in the wrong direction, luckily for us, he had just given another of our fellows - by the Immortals, I can't remember his name now - a poke with his lance. Anyway, I took a stab at him with my spear, but it glanced off the mans chainmail leggings without much effect. Olwen didn't do much better, as the Alphie dropped his lance and pulled out a sabre. He turned and looked at me, and I got a good look his face - he was lot older than me, and more rough looking, certainly not what I expected from one of these "soft Alphatians" we kept hearing about back in Lucinius. I thought "we're for it now!" and suddenly I wanted to be back in that textile mill I was telling you about earlier, when a horn sounded from the distance, and the Alphie suddenly turned his horse and galloped full tilt back where he came from. One look at the poor man he lanced told me he was in a bad way, I was just about to search for the chaplain when suddenly theres a shout from "Archers!" so i scrambled to get this lad out the way quick, just as a hail of arrows rained down around us. Aside from scaring us a bit, they didn't do a whole lot, but by the time we got the line reformed the Alphie cavalry was long gone. Cornelius was a bit disappointed by the outcome, but it was only just a skirmish really. We lost a couple of men, including the lad standing to next to me, but the Alphies didn't come out of it unscathed either. Looked to us like they were regulars, and when the praefect Whats that? You wanted something a bit more than this? Well, luckily for us the Alphies didn't have any dragons on their side so I can't resort to that old cliche (well, not that I ever met anyway). Yes, I've got a few more stories too, but thats enough for tonight I think. You've had your eight silvers worth, lad... There'll be time enough for more talk later. ****************** And with that, the old legionary gets to his feet, and shuffles out of the pub onto the darkened streets of Biazzan, leaving the small crowd of interested youths who had gathered behind him. But Diogenes Akritios will return! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:16:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey! Just 6 votes until now! I need 176 more!! I hope I will not resort to invent the votes myself, or to ask you PERSONALLY. (A menace? Well, typical Alphatian style...hey hey hey!! Stalker!!! Stop it with that delayed fire balls!!! And look! No votes for Alphatia, ha!ha!ha!) 2 Darokin 1 Thyatis (guess who?) 1 Rockhome 1 Karameikos 1 Glantri Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:01:04 +0200 =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= writes: > > > 367-384 AC Corwyn VI Attleson, the Wizard (son, died in a > "labratory > accident", to use Glantrian terminology) > > > > Maybe also by Glantrian (Fleamish/ Brajerian) competetion? Possibly. Were the Flaemish around then? I know they arived somewhere in the ACs. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:23:43 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, my favorite nation in the whole wide world of Mystara is Alfheim, because I am an elf and my name is Meltheim (originating between a combination of Melf-my real name-and Alfheim) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:20:37 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Bugger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chopped off the end of my story with an ill placed flick of the mouse... Have the last para again. Cornelius was a bit disappointed by the outcome, but it was only just a skirmish really. We lost a couple of men, including the lad standing to next to me, but the Alphies didn't come out of it unscathed either. Looked to us like they were regulars, and when the praefect heard that, well, that was it. Seemed that he was a senator no less, and apparently he was in the legions for some obscure reason back home - well, whatever reason it was, it wasn't to do the right thing, which is why I was there. Our good praefect valued his command more than he valued his honour, anyway, and he pulled a few strings to have us pulled back to Newkirk. A (trustworthy) friend of mine who was posted to his command staff tells me he was worried that he might lose his position if we got hammered to badly by the Alphies at any point, and that he was eager to wait for some other Exercitii to take a beating before us. Course, he didn't always have a choice - even a Praefect is not an Immortal on Mystara after all. Thats another story though. Apologies, should reread stuff before I hit the send button :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:11:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Very nice indeed, Ohad. This could be a fun way of getting one of a party's "old" enemies to come back, years later, much younger and fresher than the middle-aged heroes who beat him last time....> It is also a more interesting explanation to mages longevity than "she has consumed 5 potions of longevity". >One question though; since it reverses so many other things, could the spell (perhaps as a random side effect) remove acquired levels from the user? Nasty surprise for that Archmage, if so; waking up able to cast little more than a Magic Missile (heh heh heh...;-)> Well, making this spell so high as 9th level, I didnt need a side efffect... >Good work! Thank you. More to come. >Carl Q. Ohad SH, oh ehh... Morphail G-W ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:26:54 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had this discussion on the GPD so it is probably one of us. I think it was Kit Navarro's idea but I could be mistaken. Guys? -----Original Message----- From: Master's Pawn [SMTP:BoBoII@AOL.COM] Sent: =E2 =E9=F0=E5=E0=F8 18 2000 23:18 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics Fenswick: House Hillsbury, Siege Fenswick Someone stated recently that the Hillsbury family (the real ones, that = is) are from Laterre. C'est vrais? Ou est la source de cette = information? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:32:03 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vyalia elves, hm. So perhaps forresters, would be known primarily for their longbow skill, while keeping their adopted clans a quiet secret. All the outside world knows is that those Vyalian ( and possible Dymrak ) woodsmen can shoot those big bows. Maybe the wood there is condusive? Myself, I always see elves with short bows, given there size, but thats me. Okay then. Vyalian Archers could be the KW's welsh archers. Perhaps some hire out as mercenaries to various lords as a sign of prestige. And I imagine all would fear Wendar and old Alfheim as deadly archers, though I always envisioned the Alfheimers, and Shadows by extension, as short bow users due to small frame and ease in climbing/picking way through the undergrowth. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:39:15 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So perhaps forresters, would be known primarily for their longbow skill, while keeping their adopted clans a quiet secret. All the outside world knows is that those Vyalian ( and possible Dymrak ) woodsmen can shoot those big bows. Maybe the wood there is condusive? > Could be. If one wanted to keep the Karameikan's using longbows, it would make a good explaination for both areas having it, I suppose. > Myself, I always see elves with short bows, given there size, but thats me. > Yah, but just about everything on elves has them using the longbow, so I went with that. Elven archers are supposed to be the greatest sorts in the world (or so we generally hear). I suppose what *could* happen is the elves use bows about the size of short bows but with the range &tc of longbows - specially made types. But to do that IMO one would have to get into compounding (compound bows can be wicked. I know their's one old Turkish bow that *must* be drawn back with a metal draw, not the fingers, because the pull weight is so great you'd rip your fingers off before you could draw the string by hand). > > And I imagine all would fear Wendar and old Alfheim as deadly archers, though I always envisioned the Alfheimers, and Shadows by extension, as short bow users due to small frame and ease in climbing/picking way through the undergrowth. > Possible; see above re. that. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:46:29 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What sort of bows should the various 'Noids use? I suppose the short-stuff 'noids should use shortbows (and short swords). Javelins and slings might be appropriate, too. Orks might look cool with crossbows and bandoleers of daggers. Gnolls are always fun with long type bows, but they might do well with compound bows. Ogres don't use bows, or do they? If they do, an Arbalest is probably the way to go. Trolls just don't seem right using missile weapons for some reason, but if they do I'd have them use slings or javelins. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:46:36 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Tales from the Front - the Eve of the War MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was beutiful Rob!!!! It as as realistic as it can be (as we are talking about a fantasy = setting here), and I realy got exited waiting for the damn Alphie rider. I really whould like to here more about that great and horrible war they = call the Wrath of the Immortals. This reminds me when I tell children (and sometimes adults!) about my = service in the Israealy army. "What you didn't kill anybody? Umph!". The life of a soldier is very boring. And when it is not boring it is = horrible. Again, good work Rob! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:00:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, Glantri, what can you expect from somebody who has roleplayed MUs since 15 years ago? Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:02:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:47:07 `ilo ygm wrote: >Hey all. Speaking of spells as easy contributions to the game, I have another one! >As usual, comments are welcome (even ones like " I don't like this spell at all"). (Spell description snipped) Yuck! This spell is just as awful as such as spell should be - great spell. It would work just great in most campaigns, I'd expect. I like your eerie descriptions of it a lot. It is absolutely horrible! - Just the sort of thing I'd expect from Glantrians or Thyatians. :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:14:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Mystara Pronunciation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So many different ways to pronounce the same word, Wendar. Greg Weatherup GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html Gordon McCormick & Geoff Gander wrote > On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 11:41:10AM -0500, Geoff Gander wrote: > > Greg wrote: > > > > >Wendar: when-d-are (the last two sylables pronounced quickly together) or > > >maybe Wind-are > > > > ....or perhaps "WHEN-dar" > > I always pronounced it > > VEN-dahr > > gordon _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:41:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara part One Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Giulio Caroletti wrote: <> Well, if that's Part One, I can hardly wait for part 2!! Gimme more Giulio, these were fantastic! I'll sure add them to my Mystaran Funny quotes in my site! :) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:01:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: >Hey! >Just 6 votes until now! >I need 176 more!! I hope I will not resort to >invent the votes myself, or to >ask you PERSONALLY. (A menace? Well, typical >Alphatian style...hey >hey hey!! Stalker!!! Stop it with that delayed >fire balls!!! And look! No >votes for Alphatia, ha!ha!ha!) And why? Because we don't need to vote for Alphatia to make it the best nation - it is by definition :) But if you must know, I'm sure you can guess who I'd vote for. I you can't (typical Thyatian - should have known...) just take a look at my email address - it's a dead giveaway I think :) -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:00:25 Andris Piquer Otero wrote: >Well, Glantri, what can you expect from somebody who has roleplayed MUs >since 15 years ago? ALPHATIA, obviously!! What else? :) - The Stalker of Alphatia (who will oblige and send those not-so delayed blast fireballs along any minute) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:08:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:59:54 James Ruhland wrote: (... and there was much snipping...) >DotE "Player's >Guidebook of Thyatis" says they use longbows, but like I said just about >every gaz that mentions armies is festooned with references of >longbow-armed missile troops. In the best of all possible worlds only a >couple nations would use them (and, *NO*, one of them would *NOT* be >Alphatia; that would fall under the category of "because they are >Alphatians they obviously are the best at everything") - probably the elves >and few others (Bellayne for obvious reasons). But we take the world as it >is, so I expect the widespread use of longbows in Mystara is just one of >those things that's hear to stay. One could say that the Thyatians, because >of their association with/alliance with the Vyalia elves (c.f. Foresters) >adopted the longbow from them for use against Alphatia's spellcasting >units, but as I said if I had my druthers (and I sort of do) they'd use >composite bows instead. Just to play play devil's advocate, I'd point out that the Alphatians might have access to long bows because of much the same reasons that you mention, except that the elves they are associated with are the Shiye-Lawr elves instead of the Vyalia. But I really don't disagree with you - I think the Crossbow would fit the Alphatians better for some reason (might have something to do with my perception of them as renaissance-era, but I don't know if that would imply crossbows. It probably wouldn't...). - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just to play play devil's advocate, I'd point out that the Alphatians might have access to long bows because of much the same reasons that you mention, except that the elves they are associated with are the Shiye-Lawr elves instead of the Vyalia. > Well, part of the point is that any yahoo hillbilly can come up with a reason why his favorite nation should have longbows. That's what happened, and is what Master's Pawn BoBo II was talking about (though he didn't phrase it the way I do 8-).) As for that, it is more likely in Alphatia, I would think, that the Shiye-Lawr elves would use their weapons, and the rest of the Alphatian nations would each use their own, rather than having some sort of (efficient) uniform standard of armaments - Alphatia being a chaotic place, such "diversity" of armaments would be de-rigur. Remember in my post I came to the conclusion that though it could be argued that this is how the Thyatians picked up the longbow (via the Vyalia elves, who also teach them elven magic, something the Shiye don't do for Alphatia), I came to the conclusion that IMO compound type bows were more appropriate for Thyatis overall (though Master's Pawn's point about the Foresters perhaps being known for their use of the longbow is well taken - but that's different than saying Thyatis as a whole or Alphatia as a whole or whatever is a hotbed of longbow proficiency). Again, the Gazeteers & PWAs arm every yokel with a longbow in a wide variety of nations, so one can stick with that if one insists. I'd agree that perhaps crossbows are more appropriate to Alphatia, but on the other hand I think that in Alphatia their is probably a wide variety of armaments, not one usual weapon. Each kingdom is armed according to its own manner. Some probably use slings, some use crossbows, some shortbows, some (the Shiye, perhaps Foresthome) use longbows, some don't make much use of missile weapons at all, arming instead with melee weapons and counting on spellcasters for ranged attacks, etc etc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:53:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:19:52 James Ruhland wrote: >As for that, it is more likely in Alphatia, I would think, that the >Shiye-Lawr elves would use their weapons, and the rest of the Alphatian >nations would each use their own, rather than having some sort of >(efficient) uniform standard of armaments - Alphatia being a chaotic place, >such "diversity" of armaments would be de-rigur. (some snipping) >Again, the Gazeteers & PWAs arm every yokel with a longbow in a wide >variety of nations, so one can stick with that if one insists. I'd agree >that perhaps crossbows are more appropriate to Alphatia, but on the other >hand I think that in Alphatia their is probably a wide variety of >armaments, not one usual weapon. Each kingdom is armed according to its own >manner. Some probably use slings, some use crossbows, some shortbows, some >(the Shiye, perhaps Foresthome) use longbows, some don't make much use of >missile weapons at all, arming instead with melee weapons and counting on >spellcasters for ranged attacks, etc etc. Hmm, that's actually a really good point IMO. It's perfectly reasonable to say that the various Alphatians are too diverse and 'chaotic' (in the sort of non-alignment way) to decide on a single weapon for their various armies - unity is a lost concept in Alphatia. Not so the Thyatians, though: They see all the potential of having unified weapons and use the advantage to the fullest effect (that's how I would see it anyway). - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:18:45 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Tales from the Front - First Battle of Westrourke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (GZuz, this is an epic. Never meant it to be this long! If dismal and sad tales of war arent your bag, move on). Ahh lads, I told you I'd be back - best ale in the city, this tavern, as if I would go anywhere else! I've even brought some of my own coin this time, though of course if any of you fine gentlemen would be so good... No my boy, I was only joking with you. Our last little chat made me think - I don't want you to do anything stupid, raised as you are on all these tales of heroics and knights and princesses and dragons... Its a mean old world out there, let me tell you. Well, I already told about that first battle of mine, didn't you? Right, well, I told you that the Praefect wasn't particularly eager for us to get involved in the fighting now, too? Well, right after that little encounter with the Alphie cavalry we ended up back at Newkirk for a couple of weeks, where we were assigned to helping out the city garrison. Not a particularly romantic job, it mostly meant helping lug boulders about to build ramparts, running around the place carrying some message from Commander A to Captain B, or helping out on the docks unloading ships, which were coming in faster than ever. What made matters even worse was the sheer bureaucracy of it all, half the jobs we did just seemed pointless, just something to keep us busy. The rumours were flying too, of course - the Praefect seemed happy to leave us in the dark about most things, but we started to see wounded men being brought in to Newkirk from the south - where we were posted previously! - where apparently the fighting had picked up. The Alphies were supposed to have been making a big push down there towards Redstone - hard to believe they would have made so much progress in just a couple of months! - and there was even some talk of Grand Duke Karameikos pulling out of the war and signing a deal with the enemy! I didn't even know that the Traladarans were in, I never saw any on the Isle of Dawn in my time there. Oh, actually, coming to think of it I did hear about some Traladaran troops in at the early stages before West Portage fell, but I digress... It looked like this was set to go on for a long time, but then this group of officers from the mainland turned up. Didn't take long for word to get around the city - apparently the Emperor himself was displeased by our efforts, and these officers were here as his advisors, trying to sort this mess out. Before too long we got the order from Cornelius - apparently we were moving out to support the 17th Thematic to the north east, who had been hit pretty hard in the last couple of weeks. After a briefing by these Imperial dignitaries (a strange mix - there were a couple of elves there, and they were dressed most strangely - out of uniform! Bit much even for officers) we headed off. Our Praefect was going to continue to manage the logistics stuff in Newkirk while we were gone with the 5th Cohort being left at the garrison. We were a bit apprehensive when we left the city and our companions in the 5th behind, but we were eager to do what had to be done to help the 17th. Yes lad, they probably were adventurers of some sort. Now don't give me that look. I said earlier that its a mean old world, and I meant it. I don't know what that band had been up to in the past, but given the horrors that we humans can inflict upon each other, I wouldn't care to know what the monsters that adventurers tackle with are capable of doing. I met a fellow who was in the Darokinian army not so long ago, he did some service at Fort Nell - never could talk to anyone about what happened while he was there.... As we marched across the rough lanes and trails of Westrourke making our way northeast, it all seemed so normal - the War seemed like such a long way away, and for the first time I started wondering what the whole point of thing was. I hadn't bothered keeping track of affairs outside Thyatis before, and thinking about it, I really didn't know what had the Alphies so riled with us this time. But then, according to my father the Alphies never did need reason, other than whim - he told me tales of the last Alphie assault not so many years ago, which he had fought in himself, in the very streets of Thyatis City. Before too long we reached the headquarters of the 17th, set back aways from the actual fighting, where we camped for a couple of days. The ground there was a rough mixture of hills and forests, not easy ground for cavalry, which had been selected to be the first line of defence for Westrourke. The Alphies knew this too, of course, and had moved up their own forces early in the War to try and hold the ground for themselves, but here at least the High Command had not let the Empire down. We were shown around the defences that had been set up by the regulars by one of their lieutenants, a young son of a merchant from Thyatis City. There was a double line of trenches dug for the troops, in which they were cowering. The whole division was spread out in a long line running roughly north/south along the rocky bluffs and crags of the Westrourke borderlands. Apparently there were supposed to thousands of Alphies to the east, far more than we could deal with, so we had to hold on to this ground while more reinforcements were brought up - we were the first of these. So the 17th had been frantically trying to get some sort of defence worked up, but the Alphies knew full well what was going on and had been constantly harassing them to try and stop them digging in. And after a few counterattacks by us, they had started doing the same. I'm telling you the background, son. I'm getting to what the historians have started calling the First Battle of Westrourke - a bit of an over the top title, it seems to me. It wasn't really a battle as you would imagine it - two armies running towards each other, clashing in the middle, and one the victor. But anyway, if you actually let me talk you would hear about it. Thank you. Anyway, I told you all about this line of defence running from north to south. If you ever go to Westrourke where these battles were fought, you may wonder how they managed to get a straight line across this and defend it. Well, they didn't. The point where I personally was stationed, with the rest of our cohort, was just behind a rocky bluff, atop which was a small garrison. The bluff stood out above the battlefield in such a way that if the Alphies charged at it, the troops we had either side of the bluff couldn't see them - that garrison would be on its own. And if they took it, they would have a nice view all down our lines, where they could rain all sorts of unpleasant missiles down onto us. Of course, it was a steep bluff, which meant it was hard going to get up it at all, but the Alphies obviously thought it a prize worth having, so they had a go at it quite a lot. Me n the rest of the boys were stationed on our side of the bluff, and we were supposed to rush upto the top if it looked like the regulars needed some assistance. Well, it wasn't long before they had problems. One night I was woken up by a bright flash and roar from up on the hill, and I remember looking up to see flames rise up for an instant as tall as a house from the top of the hill, before fading away. We could hear the screams of burning men up on the hill as we ran up the slope - we had no idea what had happened, but the band of twenty men posted up there had been hit by some sort of magic while they were dozing that night, and hit hard. A magical blast of fire had charred six men to a crisp, while another three had been fortunate (or unfortunate?) enough to be just caught by the edge, and were still alive. It was them that had been making all the caterwauling when we were running up the hill. Looking down the hill towards the Alphies, we saw no sign of a wizard or whatever did it, but we did see a whole mass of Alphie footsoldiers - must have been over fifty at least - marching up the slope towards us. Well, our captain was screaming orders at us, and at the 17th boys who were already here, and the padre was mumbling some prayer under his breath, and to make it worse, arrows and sling stones started to fall around us. Well, I jumped down into the hole the 17th had dug here and started sending arrows down into the crowd of Alphies coming up towards us. And I tell you, all the time I was waiting for the next blast of fire that would strike me dead just as it had struck down the poor lads who were here only seconds before. I never was the best archer in the world, but you couldn't miss these Alphies, there were just so many of them. It was like something out of a dream - the place was lit up only by the bright moonlight from Patera overhead, but everything seemed so clear and real, in the grey and black shades of the night. The air was filled with sound - the sound of arrows whistling through the air, shouts from our captain (I tell you, that man had a pair of lungs), and the chanting of the padre at the back. The Alphies were certainly brave, I'll give them that, as they battled up that slope towards us. They got about half way before they faltered, hiding behind what little cover they could find, and they took the opportunity to snipe back at us with crossbows and slingstones. Lucky for us, because we were running out of arrows ourselves up there. And there wasn't going to be any help from anyone else, because looking around the battlefield similar things were going on. We were the reserve, after all. The only reserve. It went on like that for several hours, taking potshots at each other. Its a nasty way to fight, lad. Crouching down in the mud with your friends, getting cramp, unable to move in case you inadvertently put something in view of an Alphie and got it shot off. Nasty weapon, a crossbow - and that banded mail we wore wasn't much help against one of those. Not to mention the magic, we all had a hearty fear of that I can tell you. Having a crisped body next to you does help spur the imagination. Eventually the Alphies got organised and charged up the last stretch towards us. Those who still could volleyed more arrows into them, but it wasn't long before they made it right to the top and we ended up drawing swords. I can't remember much of the melee, to be honest, so I'm afraid I'm going to let you all down a bit there. The Alphies had had enough by then, when they saw us all waiting for them at the top, so it didn't take much to send them off. And I have to admit, I wasn't eager to get too involved at that point myself. I remember one of the Alphies got gashed in the leg by a gladius by someone, and he fell down into our digs. We only realised he was still there a couple of minutes after his friends had run off, he was lying their shivering and gabbling in Alphatian, but none of us could understand him. He was the same age as us, and looked as fresh to it all as we were at the time. Turned out afterwards, when we sent him down to Cornelius, who spoke a bit of Alphatian himself, that the people who charged us where part of the Imperial Alphatian Force of Frisland, and were in fact all recently enlisted over in Greater Alphatia. The Alphatians had been drafting massive numbers of troops, just like we were starting to do - in a way, I suppose he was my opposite number. Next morning the Alphies came out again waving a flag of truce, and we let them carry all the wounded who were still lying on that slope back to their camps. And also, of course, those that no Some runners brought up a fresh stock of arrows, our own dead and wounded were carried back the headquarters, and then we sat and waited for the next day. And thats how it went on, for weeks. The Alphies were at it most nights, and they often did quite well, but we somehow managed to patch up our line or force them back again where they took something. The fighting seesawed around the place, but in early 1006 they had had enough and the attacks came less frequently. And that was it. That was "the First Battle of Westrourke". No one can really be said to have won, though I suppose the Thyatians managed to hold off the Alphies, at least for a while. The Emperor evidently removed us from his blacklist, and our temporary commanders were recalled (though rumours persisted that they went on into Alphatian held territory on some further Imperial business). Our old Praefect returned as our direct commander, and we were left there to garrison East Westrourke. The major battles at that point had turned elsewhere. Our cavalry had managed to turn back the Alphies in the southern plains, and the whole place was a veritable fortress now that the Thyatian reserves had moved in. Instead, the Alphies looked further north to attempt to get around behind us, and avoid those hills. And the war went on. But I won't go on, my throats as dry as an Ylari summer day, and I fear that I have kept you all for too long already, with my stories about what is now ancient history. And with that, once again, the old veteran gets to his feet, and after bidding his listeners a good night, and disappears once more back into the Biazzan night... (Wow, apologies for the length. If I only I was as diligent at university, eh? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:03:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:00:25 Andris Piquer Otero wrote: > >Well, Glantri, what can you expect from somebody who has roleplayed MUs > >since 15 years ago? > > ALPHATIA, obviously!! What else? :) > > Well, just a matter of maths and dates: GAZ3 saw the light quite before DotE... and then I think that, in those products, Glantri is far better "fleshed out" than Alphatia.. I mean, after reading both, I could "feel" the athmosphere of Glantri City, how it is at the Great School of Magic... I could not say the same thing of Sundsvall... DotE has good info for Mpolitics and history, but it really lacks the lots of tidbits on "small scale role-playing" that GAZs 1-14 have... For instance, the Seven Crafts gave a feel of uniqueness and mystery to Glantrian magic that could not be found in Alphatia; mages presented in DotE are "standard" D&D, just with a higher (too high, IMO) percentage of 36th lvl guys around! Said that, people here in the list have made great work on Alphatia... if I had not developed that soft spot for Glantri in my early teens, it could well be my favorite nation, too Besides, I think that being a mage in Alphatia is kinda boring: you are an aristocrat since you are born... even if you are Lvl 1 and not rich, there is a quite-paved road ahead. In Glantri, characters feel the need to struggle, to use their wits (read scheming and conspiring if you want) instead of sheer power and big enchanted constructs... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: redrobyne Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: ���� ��� To: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RPGs: What Happened? > In early versions of the D&D rulebook, the Alignments were also so-defined: "Lawful" was considered roughly identical with "Good" and Chaotic roughly akin to "Evil" (It says that explicitly in the oldest version of the rules that I still have: "Lawful behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'good'." and "Chaotic behavior is usually the same behavior that could be called 'evil'.") At some point this was dropped (the remarks refered to above do not appear in the RC definitions of the Alignments. Quite the contrary) - and by now things are almost completely reversed: Chaotics are deemed the "free spirits" and "respecters of individuality" while the Lawfuls are often portrayed as the type of people who "force their beliefs on others" (Harmonium compaired to Sensates in Plainscape being the clearest example of this role-reversal, but by no means the only one). What caused this change? Is it in part related to my questions #1 & #2 >above? The reason why Lawful Good was thought as being the ultimate good guy is because he not does he/she only rights wrongs in the name of goodness but does it by following laws set by local governments (unless they are against his good alignment) and also by respectable morals (i.e. if its considered good taste to spare a helpless orc then he/she will). However to stay in character this sets some restrictions (although as earlier mentioned; nowhere near the same as a paladin), pc's should make plans in life and set personal morals that he won't break except in the direst of circumstances, he need also follow the law of the local ruler (even if the ruler is eveil himself). Chaotic Good allows the player to do as he please, they probably won't make any long term plans and only obey laws that suit him/her, making this a very unrestrictive alignment (also probably favored because when alot of people game they wan't to get away from the restrictions of the modern world). Personally I prefer Neutral Good, a alignment that is good for a Robin Hood style character. This alignment allows a character to disobey the laws if they prevent the character from doing something good (i.e. helping an enemy of the local ruler, or steal a magical jewel from a treasury because it will save many people from dieing). You can make long term plans or not and as I just said you can do what you please as long as its in the name of good. However you should treat evil aligned people with less hatred because of the neutral tag. That was just my little speech, hope it clarified some things. Stewart ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:35:00 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Tales from the Front - the Eve of the War MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/00 6:24:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: << That was beutiful Rob!!!! >> Indeed, very nice work! Looking forward to the next installment. The style was somewhat reminiscent of that of Robert Adams; have you read his Horseclans or Castaways in Time novels? Magister Mystaros Exalted Mage of Mystara Chronicler of Pandius All-around Party Animal ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:54:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the Darokin area because it touches all of the nations. You can do anything with it and the population is very sparse (which is unusually compared to the more densely populated nations surrounding Darokin). The Broken Lands, Alfheim, the Rockhome pass, undergrounds of Broken Lands, Alfheim, Northern Darokin, and Rockhome and loads of adventure. You have a dash of Arabic in Selenica, and wild lands everywhere. There's Malpheggi Swamp, cultists of the Viper Clan, the big huge lake, big cities, faeries, hin traders. Just don't understand why not many people live there. ciao, Joaquin -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:03:04 Andris Piquer Otero wrote: >> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:00:25 Andris Piquer Otero wrote: >> >Well, Glantri, what can you expect from somebody who has roleplayed MUs >> >since 15 years ago? >> >> ALPHATIA, obviously!! What else? :) >> >> >Well, just a matter of maths and dates: GAZ3 saw the light quite before >DotE... and then I think that, in those products, Glantri is far better >"fleshed out" than Alphatia.. I mean, after reading both, I could "feel" >the athmosphere of Glantri City, how it is at the Great School of Magic... >I could not say the same thing of Sundsvall... DotE has good info for >Mpolitics and history, but it really lacks the lots of tidbits on "small >scale role-playing" that GAZs 1-14 have... For instance, the Seven Crafts >gave a feel of uniqueness and mystery to Glantrian magic that could not be >found in Alphatia; mages presented in DotE are "standard" D&D, just with a >higher (too high, IMO) percentage of 36th lvl guys around! Said that, >people here in the list have made great work on Alphatia... if I had not >developed that soft spot for Glantri in my early teens, it could well be my >favorite nation, too > >Besides, I think that being a mage in Alphatia is kinda boring: you are an >aristocrat since you are born... even if you are Lvl 1 and not rich, there >is a quite-paved road ahead. In Glantri, characters feel the need to >struggle, to use their wits (read scheming and conspiring if you want) >instead of sheer power and big enchanted constructs... > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:37:36 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I prefer battles where large numbers of troops face each other. in fact, I > don't like PCs taking a close stand with battles except as officers. Imo war > should be handled by the respective military forces. PCs should find their > wartime use in special tasks before the battle to aid the war effort or in > command of units Yes, in order to have a battle you've got to get there, use PC's to whittle down enemy forces. When travelling main part of most armies is usually column, remember that 14th level druid? or even a wand of lightning and an improved invisibility spell. Since this is known to be able to happen on Mystara shouldn't there be some mention somewhere of how the advanced military nations cope? When you finally get to the field of battle units usually then have to set up in order to fight effectively. They don't all take the same time to do this. If you disrupt a unit and cause it to flee through other non ready units that's the beginning of a rout. Magic is ideal for this usage. Magic missile on the battlefield is best used to kill the MOUNTS of the opposing cavalry Fireball is good against most firearm users (see Smokepowder DMG p179-180) especially if you hit their supply wagons. >From experience wargaming the best use of magic actually during the battle is to lessen you opponents cohesiveness. Fireball so you take out the middle of the charging group so there are now two smaller disrupted and uncoordinated groups coming Spike Growth in front of part of a unit set to receive a charge for ,same reason. Arrows with Continual Darkness cast on them fired at enemy (remember to have more con lights than darks on your own side). Walls to funnel the enemy into killing areas or stop reinforcement etc. Remember you don't have to kill the opposition. just stop it acting effectively as a coherent unit.Mind you highly visible total magical destruction of an entire unit has a huge effect on morale also, especially if the caster survives the job! Hamlet I, v, 166 Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:31:25 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I like the Darokin area because it touches all of the nations. You can do anything with it and the population is very sparse (which is unusually compared to the more densely populated nations surrounding Darokin). > Darokin's population isn't all that sparse, really. Not compaired to Sind, Glantri, Ylaruam, or Karameikos. Glantri (Pre WotI): 6.7 per sq. mile Glantri (post WotI): 6.7 per sq. mile (not including crater zone). Karameikos (Pre WotI): 6 per sq. mile Karameikos (Post WotI): 7.5 per sq. mile* 5 Shires: 20.6 per sq. mile** Ylaruam: 4.2 per sq. mile Alfheim (Pre WotI): 10.1 per sq. mile*** Aengmor (Post WotI): 7.2 per sq. mile Atruaghin: 5.0 per sq. mile Sind: 2.75 per sq. mile Rockhome: 24.3 per sq. mile Darokin: 15.4 per sq. mile. Only two Demi-Human areas are more densely populated than Darokin. Of course, Darokin has its densly populated areas (the Streel River Valley) and lightly populated areas (Malpheggi Swamp, Orcland, most of the Borderlands). *Karameikos' post-WotI population figures are all over the place as they vacillated in how much to magnify the place. The figure 350,000 was used as the median one. Others include 331,000 (PWA II) and 432,000 (PWA III) - either the latter figure is wildly in error or we've found the "large missing Alphatian armies stranded on the surface" that some folks are, Diogenes-like, carrying a torch for - they belatedly settled in Karameikos. **Of course since these guys are halflings, they should only count for 1/2. So lower the figure to 10.3 per sq. mile. ***Alfheim is one of the more densely populated areas. . .and here we hear about how elves preserve the wilderness, prefer low population densities, etc etc ad nausium. Most human realms turn out to be less densely populated than Alfheim. Other Demi-human realms, on the other hand, are teeming cesspools of overpopulation compared to Alfheim, so I guess they were the point of comparison. 8-)~ > The Broken Lands, Alfheim, the Rockhome pass, undergrounds of Broken Lands, Alfheim, Northern Darokin, and Rockhome and loads of adventure. You have a dash of Arabic in Selenica, and wild lands everywhere. There's Malpheggi Swamp, cultists of the Viper Clan, the big huge lake, big cities, faeries, hin traders. Just don't understand why not many people live there. > Turns out, lots of people live there. See above. In fact, Darokin is the 2nd highest populated nation in the KW, after Thyatis, just before Darokin. Of course, Thyatis is very densly populated: Pre WotI: 51.6 per sq. mile Post Thothian death wave: 43.5 per sq. mile. Almost makes the Shires look like a barren wasteland. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:36:03 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Turns out, lots of people live there. See above. In fact, Darokin is the > 2nd highest populated nation in the KW, after Thyatis, just before Darokin. > Of course, Thyatis is very densly populated: > Curses! I meant to say ". . .after Thyatis, just before Rockhome. . ." Darn it! Brain hiccup strikes again! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:40:53 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: Caroletti 's message of Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:16:45 +0100 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) This most loyal vassal of Good King Stefan I must say that his favorite country is the Grand Duchy/Kingdom of Karameikos, greatest and most wonderful country on the face of Mystara Kidding aside I do like Karameikos most of all, though I am rather fond of Glantri. "There is this warrior named Ironwolf who is going to petition the King to rename Mirros, Specualrum again. I hope he succeeds. I can't stand the new name. This Ironwolf likes to say, "Its Specularum, damn it.""--------Elcalear Dracul Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos speaking to his major domo. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:58:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One point that should be mentioned is that there are a couple of different meanings for "preferred" nation. For me, the vote would be split as follows: Most comfortable/familiar to live in: Darokin Most interesting: Glantri Note that each of these nations would for me rank near the bottom in the category that it was not nominated for. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:58:46 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-18 12:28:19 Eastern Standard Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: << Where exactly does it say Anton is a mundaner? Is it G:KoM? Gaz3 IIRC describes "him" as a mage (well Ragnaar is a mage/dragon anyway). >> >From Gaz 3: "The prince's brother, Sir Anton (F22, C) died years ago when he attempted to kill an ancient gold dragon. Out of boredom, Raknaar the dragon (HD 22, L) polymorphed into a human, came to the Tower of Linden, and finally magic jarred into Anton's body." Thus, Anton was a 22d level fighter, which would make him a mundaner -- and Raknaar would also have to pretend to be a mundaner to maintain the deception that he is actually Anton. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:02:26 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Murphy, Jason" Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > One point that should be mentioned is that there are a couple of different > meanings for "preferred" nation. For me, the vote would be split as > follows: > > Most comfortable/familiar to live in: Darokin > > Most interesting: Glantri > > Note that each of these nations would for me rank near the bottom in the > category that it was not nominated for. > > [MURPHY Jason] For which i guess the chinese curse fits well..."May you live in interesting times." I guess it is say may your days be anything but comfortable and familiar. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:56:34 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Since this is known to be able to happen on > Mystara shouldn't there be some mention somewhere of how the advanced > military nations cope? > You'd think there might be, but if this thread demonstrates anything, so far it has demonstrated that it's a lot easier to rattle off the list of spells and their possible effects than to come up with creative ways for people to cope with them (actually, Rob did a pretty good job of stating how folks would cope with some type of effects, but it seems a lot of people still think the role of the "mundane" troops is to behave cooperatively and form up like nice little targets so they can be efficiently dispatched. But I digress). Left out, however, have been the creative ways spells (the non-flash-boom ones) can be used to enhance the utility of troops. Also ignored for the most part (though Paul got to some of them) have been the role of Clerical spells. Lets start with a few handy spells: Dig and Move Earth are just plain wonderful for quickly preparing an entrenched position. They can be used to create trenches as Rob mentioned folks using, but I'd use them to create parapets: use the spells to dig a ditch, mounding the earth up on "our" side of it. The troops should have at hand sharpened stakes, which they can drive into the ditch facing out. Enemy forces (especially cavalry) must cross the ditch (hard for horses to do with the stakes pointy end right where the belly will be when they land. Horse-Ka-Bob makes a good ration suppliment for troops tired of beans, too). Massmorph and Hallucinatory Terrain are so obviously useful it pains me to mention them. Even a handfull of hidden troops can be quite decisive if used properly. Barrier spells (Wall of Force, Wall of Fire) are very handy for defenders. Wall of Force is particularly useful against an enemy that likes to Charge. Earthquake is handy against structures, collapsing ditches and trenches, and the like. Transmute Rock to Mud (Dissolve) can be used to create a quagmire in areas you want to slow the enemy down in. Weather Control type spells - create a dense fog if you want to mask movement. Naval battles will probably see lots of castings by both sides in an effort to determine the conditions of battle, create favorable winds, and the like. Things like Creeping Doom might be damn slow: but sometimes you want to get the enemy out of a specific place, and it doesn't matter that the spell is slow moving - they have to leave it or be eaten. Animate Dead might cause morale problems, unless you're Thothian (if you're part of a dead civilization hanging around dead guys is just like being back home anyhow). Still, I guess if used often enough, folks will get used to it. Just make sure to use dead enemies; no one is happy seeing their platoonmates come back in this fashion. That's bad for morale no matter how you cut it. Note that even if you don't use these guys as troops (and you might not want to), they can be used to perform all sorts of other tasks - since they're tireless, they're handy in fortification building and other scut work. Wizard Eye is a good "forward observer" spell. Clairaudience and Clairvoyance can be useful as well, but are more limited. Depending on which rules set you use, OD&D or AD&D, Clerics might have access to a plethora of simply wonderful War spells (Tome of Magic) - hell, if you use OD&D one might simply convert those AD&D spells to OD&D format for clerics of appropriate Immortals. Most Thyatian clerics will have access to them, as will a good number of Northern Reaches hardboys. There is nothing bigger than war, so Quest spells might come into play, too. And someone said characters can't (or shouldn't) influence major events (that seems to go against the long-established spirit of Mystara, anyhow; what else are the Domain rules for, if characters aren't intended to rule, and thus shape events? What is War Machine for if characters aren't intended to participate in, and shape the outcome of, battles? What were the Norwold (CM & M) modules all about? None of this stuff is included in the rules just for show - everything is intended to aid in helping create a campaign centered around the activities of the players. But I digress, wildly. Back to my original screed, already in progress). Courage is a handy morale-enhancing spell that any priest who can cast 1st level spells can use (if they have the War sphere); good for use against (especially) magics that have morale effects (Fear, etc), or just general trepidation (casualties or whatnot). Since its duration is "open ended," it can be cast on units before battles take place, allowing the Cleric to concentrate on other things during the actual fight (and even rememorize spells in that slot). Morale is another good low level spell, at least if you are pretty sure a battle is going to take place and you're near a "place of worship;" the other (battlefield use/casting) is less useful, but might still be helpful. Rally is good if the above two fail. Sanctify (in the All sphere) is excellent for prepairing a battlefield, especially fortified areas. It requires a team of priests, but its only 2nd level. It's a "must have" spell if the enemy is using lots of Undead (oops to Thothia). Caltrops - use that spell in conjunction with a mage casting Dig or Move Earth (as above), making it extraordinarily hard for the enemy to assault your position (most of these spells seem to work best when defending, it seems - but creative attackers can use them to really screw with defenders, also). Weather Stasis (the Wards) spell is good for making sure the other guy doesn't screw with the weather on you - but its area of effect is very limited. the Disguise spell can be as handy as Massmorphs and the like. Battles can be confusing and since most folks aren't told what other units will be doing, they probably won't find out until its too late. Good way to sneak your troops right up to those Boltmen and butcher them before they find out you're not their relief or reinforcements. Then you have a lot of free wands. Pass them out to your friends, and use them on your overconfident enemies. Illusory Artillery is illusory - this spell isn't all that special since other illusion spells can perform similar tricks. But most priests don't have access to any illusion spells, but guys with the War sphere can use this one. It's ok, but for a spell that takes a Turn to cast, it isn't a big deal. There are (usually) better spells to cast. Like Undead Ward (Wards), if you're facing guys who like to form up their ranks with lots of dead guys. The Shadow Engines spell is good, because "real" artillery might be hard to come by, but these can be created on the fly. Really good for getting that extra-ordinary range in the situations that require it. Imago Interrogation (Astral, Divination, Time): want to find out the enemy's battle plans? His or her strategy? The fact that she is landing troops in Ylaruam as we speak? Imago Interrogation is the only way to go. Other Divinatory spells can be foiled fairly easily, or have significant chances of error. Imago Interrogation was a key to defeating Barrimoor in MBirthright. Of course, someone's got to have come up with a counter, or life would be too easy. Preservation (Wards): If you don't cast this spell or something similar to it on all your most important buildings, you're a chump. Of course it has to be renewed after 60 days, but ways to make it permanent Ought to be found. Siege Wall (Creation, Guardian): cast this in combination with the above, and your opponent may as well find another way to win, 'cause he ain't getting in. Storm of Vengeance (Elemental, War, Weather) is one way. It has a superb range, used against troops in the open will pretty much destroy them. Undead Plague (Necromancy - as if it would be anything other): great for those Thothian types who just can't get enough dead guys to join their army and need on the spot recruits to fill out the ranks. Up to 1,000 new skellies. *joy* Warband Quest (Charm, War): This is a real "holy war" spell, and probably should come to play a lot in WotI-type wars where the Immortals are taking a special interest in the outcome. A particularly nasty spell if the guys who are affected by it are fighting folks who don't have a similar benifit. It can turn average joes into an unstopable juggernaut, make pathetic levies look like they're members of the Alphatian Imperial Guard, and just generally make for a fun war. Don't leave home without it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:25:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-18 17:19:11 Eastern Standard Time, anowack@JUNO.COM writes: << Possibly. Were the Flaemish around then? I know they arived somewhere in the ACs. >> Nope -- they didn't arrive until 395 AC. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:56:02 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-18 17:32:40 Eastern Standard Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: << Someone stated recently that the Hillsbury family (the real ones, that is) are from Laterre. C'est vrais? Ou est la source de cette information? >> See the "Mark of Amber" boxed set, final entry for the valet Wilton Wyatt: "The perfect valet, Wilton hails not from Nouvelle Averoigne but from Fenwick, a tiny duchy populated by people who, like the d'Ambrevilles, originally hailed from Laterre. They followed their neighbors from old Averoigne over a century ago but kept their own distinct language and culture." Wilton's native language is "Anglais". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:26:03 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-19 02:15:43 Eastern Standard Time, jason.murphy@MITSWA.COM.AU writes: << For which i guess the chinese curse fits well..."May you live in interesting times." I guess it is say may your days be anything but comfortable and familiar. >> Except for the fact that the Chinese are not familiar with that curse (best evidence is that Robert Kennedy made it up), it is exactly what I was getting at. Darokin is probably the best place for player characters to be from (as they can get along with nearly anybody) but if you are looking for an interest- ing place to adventure then no place beats Glantri. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:19:55 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I once thought the populations of the known world needed a great = increase to make them look more realistic as "highly populated" centerof = civilization. I had Darokin and Glantri get a x3 boost, Karameikos a x2 Thyatis a x1.5 = and Ylaruam and the humanoids unchanged.=20 I don't know if I will do the same now.=20 However if Im not mistaken Darokin is about half as big as France or = Germany (and as importent to the KW as those nations were in RW = renaissance). What was the population density in the 16th-17th century? -----Original Message----- From: James Ruhland [SMTP:jruhlconob@sprynet.com] Sent: =E3 =E9=F0=E5=E0=F8 19 2000 7:31 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Darokin > > I like the Darokin area because it touches all of the nations. You = can do anything with it and the population is very sparse (which is = unusually compared to the more densely populated nations surrounding Darokin). > Darokin's population isn't all that sparse, really. Not compaired to = Sind, Glantri, Ylaruam, or Karameikos. Glantri (Pre WotI): 6.7 per sq. mile Glantri (post WotI): 6.7 per sq. mile (not including crater zone). Karameikos (Pre WotI): 6 per sq. mile Karameikos (Post WotI): 7.5 per sq. mile* 5 Shires: 20.6 per sq. mile** Ylaruam: 4.2 per sq. mile Alfheim (Pre WotI): 10.1 per sq. mile*** Aengmor (Post WotI): 7.2 per sq. mile Atruaghin: 5.0 per sq. mile Sind: 2.75 per sq. mile Rockhome: 24.3 per sq. mile Darokin: 15.4 per sq. mile. Only two Demi-Human areas are more densely populated than Darokin. Of course, Darokin has its densly populated areas (the Streel River Valley) and lightly populated areas (Malpheggi Swamp, Orcland, most of the Borderlands). *Karameikos' post-WotI population figures are all over the place as they vacillated in how much to magnify the place. The figure 350,000 was used = as the median one. Others include 331,000 (PWA II) and 432,000 (PWA III) - either the latter figure is wildly in error or we've found the "large missing Alphatian armies stranded on the surface" that some folks are, Diogenes-like, carrying a torch for - they belatedly settled in = Karameikos. **Of course since these guys are halflings, they should only count for = 1/2. So lower the figure to 10.3 per sq. mile. ***Alfheim is one of the more densely populated areas. . .and here we = hear about how elves preserve the wilderness, prefer low population = densities, etc etc ad nausium. Most human realms turn out to be less densely = populated than Alfheim. Other Demi-human realms, on the other hand, are teeming cesspools of overpopulation compared to Alfheim, so I guess they were = the point of comparison. 8-)~ > The Broken Lands, Alfheim, the Rockhome pass, undergrounds of Broken Lands, Alfheim, Northern Darokin, and Rockhome and loads of adventure. = You have a dash of Arabic in Selenica, and wild lands everywhere. There's Malpheggi Swamp, cultists of the Viper Clan, the big huge lake, big = cities, faeries, hin traders. Just don't understand why not many people live there. > Turns out, lots of people live there. See above. In fact, Darokin is the 2nd highest populated nation in the KW, after Thyatis, just before = Darokin. Of course, Thyatis is very densly populated: Pre WotI: 51.6 per sq. mile Post Thothian death wave: 43.5 per sq. mile. Almost makes the Shires look like a barren wasteland. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:36:08 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In fact, a few things I have read showed more gender bias in the authors than > in the people described -- for example, in G:KoM notice that bizarre remark > about Vanserie's brother Anton (supposedly a fighter) giving up his claim to > Linden in favor of Juliana -- never mind that Juliana was the obvious heir and > >that Anton as a supposed mundaner would have had no claim at all. > > Where exactly does it say Anton is a mundaner? Is it G:KoM? > Gaz3 IIRC describes "him" as a mage (well Ragnaar is a mage/dragon anyway). > > Puzzeled > Morphail (Ohad Shaham) GKoM does not say that Anton is a mundaner, but it does say that he is Raknaar the dragon. But it does say that: "When offered the pricneship, "Anton" delclined in favor of Juliana." That clears things up, but does nothing to this gender bias/sexism thread. :( Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:47:28 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Master's Pawn To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 5:18 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics > Fenswick: House Hillsbury, Siege Fenswick > > Someone stated recently that the Hillsbury family (the real ones, that is) are from Laterre. C'est vrais? Ou est la source de cette information? Off hand, I can only remember that Mark of Amber explicitly states that the d'Ambreville butler comes from Fenswick who come from Laterre. I think GKoM does not say this as explicitly, only saying that the Sylaire and the Kaelic/people of Klantyre come from Laterre. (Even the term Kaelic came from someone in the MML I think and not one of the canon sources.) I think the connection makes sense though. I suppose that the Fenswick were a minority that came with the Kaelic. I even proposed that this is a reversal of their situation in Laterre, where the Fenswick were a majority and the Kaelic a minority, possibly giving tensions between the Fenswick and the Kaelic. According to the GPD, the notable Fenswick nationals include, of course, the Hillsburys (Duke Edward, Duchess Margaret, and Princess Dolores) and Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft (actually, half-Sylaire, half-Fenswick, and totally anti-Kaelic!). Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? In-Reply-To: <01BF6210.EA5C9CC0@Hrz-24-170.inter.net.il> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Well I was reffering to Lawful as "conservative". The YAPi (sp?) era. > Strong right in most countries, Pop music and the like.... I don't see any semblance between being lawful and conservative. Lawful is someone like the Pope who stands up for the poor and doesn't like corporate crime. Conservative is trickle-upon economics and deregulation. The yuppies, with their self-centered outlook on life, are certainly more chaotic than lawful. - Mischa It is only slightly facetious to say that digital information lasts forever - or five years, whichever comes first - Jeff Rothenberg in Scientific American, Jan. 1995 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:39:20 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"The perfect valet, Wilton hails not from Nouvelle Averoigne but from Fenwick, >a tiny duchy populated by people who, like the d'Ambrevilles, originally >hailed >from Laterre. They followed their neighbors from old Averoigne over a century >ago but kept their own distinct language and culture." > >Wilton's native language is "Anglais". Cool, he's a butler :) Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:20:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Update Hi all, I just made some updates to my pages. I added into the dominion lists dominions that were erased after Light of Rad decision and their rulers. There also some new entries in timeline and happenings from the year 1016 are added. http://sivut.koti.tpo.fi/wallemaki Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: <8210-38855C75-734@storefull-296.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would also like to speak up and cast my vote for Karameikos. I've always felt a great attachment to the ol' place, and I've set campaigns there since I got the Expert set lo these many years ago. That said, unlike everyone else seems to, I actually like the name change to Mirros and the crowning of Stefan King. It seems to make sense to me that Stefan would want to make a symbol of his new country, and changing the name of Specularum seems like a good one. Besides, I've often put up with players who thought the name Specularum was silly. So far, I've only had one player make any jokes about the name Mirros (Mirros - the freshmaker), and he got pelted by the other players ;) On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Ron Rogers wrote: > This most loyal vassal of Good King Stefan I must say that his favorite > country is the Grand Duchy/Kingdom of Karameikos, greatest and > most wonderful country on the face of Mystara > > Kidding aside I do like Karameikos most of all, though I am rather fond > of Glantri. > > "There is this warrior named Ironwolf who is going to petition the King > to rename Mirros, Specualrum again. I hope he succeeds. I can't stand > the new name. This Ironwolf likes to say, "Its Specularum, damn > it.""--------Elcalear Dracul Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos > speaking to his major domo. > > CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) > Knight of the Square Table > > Member of the Knights Knoble > http://knightsknoble.cjb.net > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:51:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics In-Reply-To: <000301bf626a$1f5b5d40$28f217d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francisco V. Navarro wrote: > According to the GPD, the notable Fenswick nationals include, of course, the > Hillsburys (Duke Edward, Duchess Margaret, and Princess Dolores) and Lord > John Beaumarys-Moorkroft (actually, half-Sylaire, half-Fenswick, and totally > anti-Kaelic!). Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft is a Fenswick? I thought he was related to Moorkroft the sorceror from the Sylvan Land (CM7 - Tree of Life). In fact, I thought this was referenced in GAZ3 (I'll have to check when I can get to it). I like the idea of the Fenswicks coming from Laterre, though I thought it was kind of a silly way to get the d'Ambervilles an English butler when I read Mark of Amber. Stupid Question --> What does GPD stand for? Thanks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:03:13 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Mr. Darknerd To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Poll: What is your preferred nation? > I like the Darokin area because it touches all of the nations. You can do anything with it and the population is very sparse (which is unusually compared to the more densely populated nations surrounding Darokin). > > The Broken Lands, Alfheim, the Rockhome pass, undergrounds of Broken Lands, Alfheim, Northern Darokin, and Rockhome and loads of adventure. You have a dash of Arabic in Selenica, and wild lands everywhere. There's Malpheggi Swamp, cultists of the Viper Clan, the big huge lake, big cities, faeries, hin traders. Just don't understand why not many people live there. > > ciao, > Joaquin And don't forget your occasional wizard trying to get away from the politics, perils, scandals of Glantri! I'd think Darokin is quite a good place for a temporary sabbatical or exile. (Of course, for something for permanent, you have to go elsewhere... like under the sea in, well, the Undersea, or in the sky like Serraine.) Hmmm... In fact, I propose a new Glantrian idiom, along the lines of 'died in a laboratory accident'... Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Did you really expect her to make an appearance so soon after that flesh golem fiasco? She's off 'vacationing in Darokin,' my dear!" --Baron Pieter Vandehaar, teaching Princess Juliana Vlaardoen a thing or two about Glantrian scandals ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:26:33 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Who is Anton Vlaardoen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a message dated 2000-01-18 12:28:19 Eastern Standard Time, > ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: > > << Where exactly does it say Anton is a mundaner? Is it G:KoM? > Gaz3 IIRC describes "him" as a mage (well Ragnaar is a mage/dragon anyway). > >> > > From Gaz 3: > > "The prince's brother, Sir Anton (F22, C) died years ago when he attempted to > kill an ancient gold dragon. Out of boredom, Raknaar the dragon (HD 22, L) > polymorphed into a human, came to the Tower of Linden, and finally magic > jarred into Anton's body." > > Thus, Anton was a 22d level fighter, which would make him a mundaner -- > and Raknaar would also have to pretend to be a mundaner to maintain the > deception that he is actually Anton. Which would make an interesting suprise for anyone who tries or has been messing with our sweet Princes Juliana... Imagine the poor foolish suitors trying to use invisibility spells, charm spells... Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Sir Anton? Her uncle? Oh don't worry about that mundaner! He can do nothing against my magic." --Princes Dolores of Fenswick plotting with Ludwig von Hendriks, the Black Eagle, and sadly missing out on one small but crucial detail... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:52:07 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: The Fenswick (was The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Knott > << Someone stated recently that the Hillsbury family (the real ones, that is) > are from Laterre. C'est vrais? Ou est la source de cette information? >> > > See the "Mark of Amber" boxed set, final entry for the valet Wilton Wyatt: > > "The perfect valet, Wilton hails not from Nouvelle Averoigne but from Fenwick, > a tiny duchy populated by people who, like the d'Ambrevilles, originally > hailed > from Laterre. They followed their neighbors from old Averoigne over a century > ago but kept their own distinct language and culture." > > Wilton's native language is "Anglais". > Actually, the entry says Fenswick (Anglais), which as discussed previously in the MML, is known only to the native Fenswick. Learn more about the Fenswick from the GPD: http://sato.helsinki.fi/~montola.valt/mystara/index.htm particulalry under Duchess Margaret Hillsbury, Dolores' (alleged) mother. Look also for the spell "Edward's Untranslatable Writings" which takes advantage of the peculiarities of the Fenswick language. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "One day, the Fenswick shall regain their former glory and build a principality of their own. And I intend to be its Prince." --Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, a Fenswick nationalist, early in his political career. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:42:09 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ************************************ Cocoon (AD&D- Alternation/Necromany or Chronomancy) Well this spell could explain why some Glantrian have been alive for hundreds of years (besides the elves, the vampires and those under Immortal influence, of course). But still, I can't imagine the more vain age-conscious Glantrians to dare put on all that necromantic gunk on them! Yuck! Maybe in Glantri, it's known by some other name, like "Rejuvenation of the Butterfly" or "Silken Bed of Eternal Youth" for an Ethengaran flavor, or "Rosebud of Restored Beauty" alluding to the beautiful Immortal Valerias (You did mention Lhommar, right?) Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Non, non, There's no such spell, I tell you! That is just some romantic tale by some silly Traladaran girl! Or worse, some plot by those vampires to create more ugly creatures like them!" --Dame Diane de Moriamis, herself an expert in beauty and youth--or the lack of it--about the Cocoon spell. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:48 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hmm... Izmer? Sumdall? So, am I being a dense Alphaphobic Glantrian or is > > there still some part of that Rad-forsaken continent that we haven't > > destroyed yet? :) > > > > Kit Navarro > > I love this man. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Capatain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > Taken out of context, this statement could be viewed as rather... "Milenian" if you know what I mean. ;) Hmmm... With the present talk of gender issues and patriarchies, it makes me wonder about the rest of Mystara. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Well, historically, Claudio Glantri was. He loved those Thyatian gladiators, they say. And Gaston d'Ambreville too. Which one? The artist, of course! He's the only d'Ambreville who's not married yet. And I heard that Sir Boris Gorevitch-Woszlany (Yes, Prince Morphail's brother!) was seen kissing this handsome Krondaharan youth at Princess Carnelia's party last week. No, not just a peck! A deep passionate kiss down the neck! That lad was in ecstacy, they say. Now what else could that mean?" --Noussoir du Marais, piecing together some interesting bits of gossip, when someone metioned 'casting spells for the other school' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:23:30 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: The Fenswick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeremy Morris Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft is a Fenswick? I thought he was related to > Moorkroft the sorceror from the Sylvan Land (CM7 - Tree of Life). In > fact, I thought this was referenced in GAZ3 (I'll have to check when I can > get to it). According to our resident Fenwsick consultant in the GPD (Glantrian Personnel Divison... Hmmm... Sounds kinda officey, I always thought!), Lord Carl Quaif of the Numerous Spells, "Moorkroft" is a rather Fenswick name, so I made the connection Actually, all this will come out in the GPD file on Lord John, but it has yet to be completed and posted in the (shameless plug) GPD homepage at: http://sato.helsinki.fi/~montola.valt/mystara/index.htm The Moorkroft are a Fenswick family of rebels, radicals and rabblerousers. Some, like Robert Moorkroft, Lord John's father, was a legitimate freedom fighter, fighting against Kaelic oppression of the Fenswick (Of course, the McGregors viewed him as a troublemaking seditionist!). Some, like Moorkorft Elvenbane, had less that legitimate crusades, like annahilating elvenkind. These family ties have made Lord John the enemy of the McGregors and the Erewan elves. (Of course, the rest of the Lord John's enemies he made himself.) Kit Navarro Proud member of the GPD fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Moorkroft?! He couldn't be related to... No! I thought his name was Beaumarys? And he's a baron now? Well, he won't get far up Glantri's political ladder, I swear it!" --Prince Brannart McGregor, a mere 30 years before Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft became the Archduke of Westheath ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Hi Giulio! Well, as far as canon nations go (those discussed in the Gaz series), you can mark me down for Thyatis. :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: The Fenswick In-Reply-To: <024301bf6288$c96866c0$28f217d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francisco V. Navarro wrote: > Actually, all this will come out in the GPD file on Lord John, but it has > yet to be completed and posted in the (shameless plug) GPD homepage at: > http://sato.helsinki.fi/~montola.valt/mystara/index.htm Ah, so that's what the GPD is. Thanks for the info. Very interesting stuff at the site, I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I send my PCs to meddle in the affairs of Glantrian wizards ;) Thanks for the info, Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:58:32 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can we please get back to discussing *Mystaran* politics here? There are other forums for people to vent their IRL political views. > > > Well I was reffering to Lawful as "conservative". The YAPi (sp?) era. > > Strong right in most countries, Pop music and the like.... > > I don't see any semblance between being lawful and conservative. Lawful > is someone like the Pope who stands up for the poor and doesn't like > corporate crime. Conservative is trickle-upon economics and deregulation. > The yuppies, with their self-centered outlook on life, are certainly more > chaotic than lawful. > > - Mischa > > It is only slightly facetious to say that digital information lasts > forever - or five years, whichever comes first - Jeff Rothenberg in > Scientific American, Jan. 1995 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:03:52 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However if Im not mistaken Darokin is about half as big as > France or Germany (and as importent to the KW as those > nations were in RW renaissance). What was the population > density in the 16th-17th century? > It depends on the region and the time. You talking Germany before, or after, the 30 years war? Probably 20-30 persons per square mile; denser in the Low Countries. I have figures somewhere, but I don't know where they are (still in boxes, but which ones?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:48:21 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > > Only two Demi-Human areas are more densely populated > than Darokin. Of > course, Darokin has its densly populated areas (the > Streel River Valley) > and lightly populated areas (Malpheggi Swamp, > Orcland, most of the > Borderlands). I always thought that Darokin was kinda Mystara's America, being the melting pot and all (especially when you figure in the over-developed sense of mercantilism). The location of the population would just reinforce that impression, IMO. Especially when you look at the Western US. Let's face it, not much (population-wise) outside the big cities and some of the "less dense" areas bare a striking resemblance to Darokin's borderlands. > Turns out, lots of people live there. See above. In > fact, Darokin is the > 2nd highest populated nation in the KW, after > Thyatis, just before Darokin. > Of course, Thyatis is very densly populated: > > Pre WotI: 51.6 per sq. mile > Post Thothian death wave: 43.5 per sq. mile. > > Almost makes the Shires look like a barren > wasteland. Of course, by modern standards even Thyatis seems pretty rural. Current U.S. population density is roughly 74 per sq. mile. Then you can compare that to Japan (about 1/2 the US pop in a country the size of California) at 833 per sq. mile. That starts getting pretty OT, but it gives you a point of reference for how much open area there still is in the Known World... auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Comments: To: James Ruhland In-Reply-To: <200001162053.PAA06353@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from jruhlconob@sprynet.com on Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 02:50:12PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 02:50:12PM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Terari would be another example, although I think the kindly sage > > like guys were always there. (Bensarian, Teldon etc) > > > Things are the reverse, now: these "sages" aren't so much "sages and > advisors" to the heros - they are the center of activity. The other guys > are now the supporting cast of characters. It's certainly more difficult at higher levels to give the non-spellcasters a feeling of, well, the ability to kick butt. No matter if the character is more popular, happier, whatever, they still pale before the magic users unless they have some magic items to make up for it. That's kind of why the one non-mu in my last campaign ended up with the Dragonsword/armour from the dragonlord books. So I think that the move to MU's is very much a game-rules-based one which of course wouldn't happen before the game rules were there :) > 2) As someone reminded me last week, "Terari" does not exist. There is no > such person as "Terari." :P OK, the dude that the fallen emperor pretend to be :) > > The only other game worlds I am that familiar with are Dark Sun and > > FASA's Shadowrun. Neither of these strikes me as moving in this > > directions, the heroes are still fighting against incredible odds. > > > That's why I tend to *love* the Shadowrun universe. Every conspiracy theory > is true (and even more outlandish and horrible than guys like Lone Gunman > imagine). The "threats" are all way more powerful than the "good guys" (if > there are any to be found). Far from weakening the "threat level" over time > FASA has ratcheted it up. It's just too bad they don't publish more (Damn > that Lofwyr: I loved Corporate Download, but I'll Never Deal with a Dragon. > . .or Trust an Elf, for that matter). :) lots of ditto's here :) > > [An argument could be made that the Heroes of Tyr fit this > > favoured group status, or the Draco Foundation, but I don't think > > that this is quite what James means...] > > > Well, the Heroes of Tyr were way munchie, IMO (killing the Dragon of Tyr in > such a simplistic fashion that if the TSR guys were regailed about it at a > Con by "mere" fans they would snicker openly about how some people play > campaigns. That was "all too easy" as Darth would say. I disliked Cerullian > Storm immensely, and it took my irritation and dislike for those heros into > total hatred and absolute venomous frenzy. It makes my opposition to what > happend to Alphatia look like a mild disent). Yoiks! I recently started rereading the Prism Pentad and it's better than I remembered (I thought it was great the first time I read it, lousy the second time...I wasn't as absorbed in the story since I knew what was happening...). And yeah, the Cerulean Storm was a bit, umn, overboard, although without knowing the game stats for the characters/ creatures it might've worked. Dunno...anyway, that's for dark-sun-l :) > As for the Draco Foundation, so far I agree with you - they are a "good" > organization, but far, *far* from being an Ubergroup (they get some things > accomplished, especially in the SR novels, but are still dwarfed by the > power of other groups and organizations with more nefarious goals). Very true, also the stuff they do is usually hidden, out of the way and not as in your face as the uber-good-wizards of wherever. > > Hmm, OK, but that's seperate to the way the 'good guys' are > > much more powerful/capable than the 'bad guys'. I don't know > > how this came about, or indeed why it came about. Usually > > inept 'villians' are a sign of inept writing and I would hesitate > > to describe the later Mystaran as having such. > > > I wouldn't. I wouldn't go so far as to say "inept writing" (well, not out > loud). But there was an obvious shift towards portraying "the enemy" as > stupid and incompetent (see the former thread of that name, posted on the > MML a week ago). Perhaps that's one of the faults of the Almanacs - having such things as 'the enemy' - one of the things I like about the KW is that each country/culture presents itself as the goodies! As of course most real world countries do. When an overview plot takes 'sides' as were, it kind of undermines this idea. > > Would somewhere care to define 'muchkinism', because I was about > > to say how it was different from when *I* have uber-powerful PC's, > > but I can't describe the difference. [2] > > > Used to be known as Monty Haulism. Cool, don't think I'm one of them then :) (My players would certainly agree!) > See, that's what I mean by a difference between a powerful party (or > powerful character) and munckinism. On the surface it may seem that the > character you describe is very munchie (he should move to Alphatia and sing > the national Anthem, which ends ". . . .we wish to welcome you to munckin > land.") - but if the party is challenged ("increadibly difficult for the > PC's."), then I'd say it isn't Monty Haul. It's strange, although I like Alphatia, my players all reckon it's the 'enemy' - due to the intense campaign where the Alphatians were threatening to destory their country! The mage mentioned above *hated* Alphatians and wasn't particularly remorseful about helping burn down Aasla...so, umn, no moving to Alphatia there I think [It's also a bit damp for a fire mage :) ] gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:23:12 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Remember in my post I came to the conclusion that though it could be argued that this is how the Thyatians picked up the longbow (via the Vyalia elves, who also teach them elven magic, something the Shiye don't do for Alphatia), I came to the conclusion that IMO compound type bows were more appropriate for Thyatis overall (though Master's Pawn's point about the Foresters perhaps being known for their use of the longbow is well taken - but that's different than saying Thyatis as a whole or Alphatia as a whole or whatever is a hotbed of longbow proficiency). I hear you loud and clear. Could there be any harkening back to their Milenian roots that would result in the Thyatian Legions using scirmishers armed with slings and javelins as their primary missle weapons for harrassment. While they certainly could have bows (compound, what have you, I'm primarily thinking OD&D here,) but they might be Known/Feared for thier scirmishers. Of course, while you couldn't hire a legion (hmmm maybe a renagade general perhaps) I can see Hattain Mercenaries hired for their fast moving shock troops. I like the idea of a polyglot Alphatian army though. "Who knows what to expect from them," except in the rigidly organized Air and Sea naval units, perhaps. As for Crossbows, I think the Thyatians would have them for siege warfare and units dedicated for attacking Large Monsters and heavily armored cavalry. I see Darokin and, by extension, Glantri and Sind using light crossbows effectively. Cauzerine or Averoignian Lt. Crossbowman might be a known commodity on the battlefields of Brun. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:26:28 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Puals points on cohesiveness are well timed. Thanks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:31:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland ha scritto: > > > > How do you manage to find all the time to do that? Damn all Univ exams!!! Giulio N. Caroletti all of a sudden freed (but just for a moment) of the spirit of Iulius Sergius Scaevola ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:41:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That said, unlike everyone else seems to, I actually like the name change > to Mirros and the crowning of Stefan King. It seems to make sense to me > that Stefan would want to make a symbol of his new country, and changing > the name of Specularum seems like a good one. Besides, I've often put up > with players who thought the name Specularum was silly. So far, I've only > had one player make any jokes about the name Mirros (Mirros - the > freshmaker), and he got pelted by the other players ;) > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Ron Rogers wrote: > > > This most loyal vassal of Good King Stefan I must say that his favorite > > country is the Grand Duchy/Kingdom of Karameikos, greatest and > > most wonderful country on the face of Mystara > > > > Kidding aside I do like Karameikos most of all, though I am rather fond > > of Glantri. > > > > "There is this warrior named Ironwolf who is going to petition the King > > to rename Mirros, Specualrum again. I hope he succeeds. I can't stand > > the new name. This Ironwolf likes to say, "Its Specularum, damn > > it.""--------Elcalear Dracul Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos > > speaking to his major domo. > > > > CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) > > Knight of the Square Table > > It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. Traitor. In a raving eccess of nationalism Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:43:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ���� ��� wrote: > > >In fact, a few things I have read showed more gender bias in the authors than > in the people described -- for example, in G:KoM notice that bizarre remark > about Vanserie's brother Anton (supposedly a fighter) giving up his claim to > Linden in favor of Juliana -- never mind that Juliana was the obvious heir and > >that Anton as a supposed mundaner would have had no claim at all. > > Where exactly does it say Anton is a mundaner? Is it G:KoM? > Gaz3 IIRC describes "him" as a mage (well Ragnaar is a mage/dragon anyway). > In Gaz3 Anton is a 22nd level fighter. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:01:03 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ���� ��� wrote: > > Cocoon (AD&D- Alternation/Necromany or Chronomancy) > Level: 9 > Range: 0 (caster only) > Duration: special > AoE: caster > Good spell! It gives great power at a price. I found it well balanced. It would be interesting the event of a ruling noble of Glantri using this spell - would the council replace the ruler when he is out of touch for a so long time? However, I suppose only Morphail and Sophora know this spell, and the Boldavian Prince has no need for it. BTW, the duration of this kind of hibernation is based on physical or actual age? (If the latter was true, Sophora would hibernate for centuries if she used his spell!) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:47:44 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Pre WotI: 51.6 per sq. mile > > Post Thothian death wave: 43.5 per sq. mile. > > > > Almost makes the Shires look like a barren > > wasteland. > > Of course, by modern standards even Thyatis seems > pretty rural. > Well, that's probably not the appropriate comparison; KW areas should be compaired to midieval & renaissance population densities, and by that standard Thyatis is pretty densely populated (though not impossibly so) - but most of Mystara is still very rural, true. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:52:44 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: RPGs: What Happened? Comments: To: Gordon McCormick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So I think that the move to MU's is very much a game-rules-based one > which of course wouldn't happen before the game rules were there :) > Right: people crave power, and play the most powerful class that exists - and then they prod for, and introduce, new rules or "variants" or spells or items or whatever that make this class even more uniquely supreme than it was before, exacerbating the discrepancy. Again, you can see this process under way in any given week's worth of posts on this list, and I would imagine any other AD&D related list. > > 2) As someone reminded me last week, "Terari" does not exist. There is no > > such person as "Terari." > > :P OK, the dude that the fallen emperor pretend to be :) > Well, he has 60+ of those guises, remember. Terari is just the most famous one. How he behaves in those other personas is anyone's guess. . . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:56:43 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > How do you manage to find all the time to do that? > Damn all Univ exams!!! > I never sleep. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:13:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > > Well, that's probably not the appropriate > comparison; KW areas should be > compaired to midieval & renaissance population > densities, and by that > standard Thyatis is pretty densely populated (though > not impossibly so) - > but most of Mystara is still very rural, true. Agreed. I was just using current population density figures to give people a first-hand point of reference. Medieval & renaissance figures are definitely a better comparison from an academic standpoint but I think people can get a real sense of the issue when they can compare it to their own region. Just a different perspective... auf wiedershen, Damon PS Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any figures on ancient Rome or Byzantium? My initial guess would be that they are comparable to Thyatis, but it might be interesting to find out for sure. ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:14:03 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I hear you loud and clear. Could there be any harkening back to their Milenian roots that would result in the Thyatian Legions using scirmishers armed with slings and javelins as their primary missle weapons for harrassment. While they certainly could have bows (compound, what have you, I'm primarily thinking OD&D here,) but they might be Known/Feared for thier scirmishers. Of course, while you couldn't hire a legion (hmmm maybe a renagade general perhaps) I can see Hattain Mercenaries hired for their fast moving shock troops. > There are compound bows in OD&D - they appear in the Ethengar Gaz. While I would accept your premise that the Thyatian Legions would have had lots of skirmishers armed with slings and javelins, in the begining, I think that over time they would have evolved to arming their troops with longer-ranged missile weapons, for most of the same reasons the IRL Romans eventually did. In the Roman case it was contact with the heavily-missile armed Parthians, and various steppe nomads north of the Danube, that caused them to change their equipage (from predominantly foot to a mixed army of cavalry & footmen, with many more missile troops). Heavy Foot would probably still use a Pilium (great for disordering cavalry charges, enemy phalanxes, and the like). But the heavy foot would probably be 1/4 of the army. There would be light foot & skirmishers, but most of them by AC 1000 would be bow armed rather than slingers or javelineers - the range of those weapons are just too slight. Such troops might still exist in specialty formations, auxilliaries in the hinterlands for example (where the jungle might allow slingers & javelineers to shine). But on most frontline battlefields they'd have a hard time surviving. So they'd be gone by now. Thyatis would also have a strong cavalry arm, both armored and light (about 1/4 each) - the light cavalry would assume most of the role the skirmishers did before: they'd be bow armed, and used as horse archers. The heavy cavalry would be the main "shock" force. Filling in/supporting the heavy infantry (the decendents of the old legionaires) would be light foot, bow armed, and flanking forces. The misimpression the PWA armies give is, in effect, that Thyatian armies have been fairly static in their development from circa BC 600 to AC 1000+. This was far from the case with the IRL Romans, and though IRL by 1000 AD the (East) Roman army was still the linear decendant of the old Roman legions, they were armed and fought very differently, due to evolutions in tactics and operational patterns. I don't think the case should be different for Mystara's Thyatis. Thus the armies on my webpages. In other words, not only is there a "national character" to armies, Mystaran or otherwise, there is a "temporial character" - lessons learned in past encounters are reflected in changes that gradually alter the forces, as they adapt to new circumstances and information. The truth also happens to be that defeat is a better schoolmaster than victory (why mess with success?) - the Romans changed their legions after several setbacks displayed weaknesses in the old units, and did so several times throughout their history. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:43:23 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > PS Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any > figures on ancient Rome or Byzantium? My initial guess > would be that they are comparable to Thyatis, but it > might be interesting to find out for sure. > "Atlas of World Population History" (McEvedy & Jones) is a good place to start, though their figures have been revised by others several times. Roman Empire circa 300 AD would be about 35-40 million people. About 19 million in the East, with a non-desert area of about 620,000 sq. miles. That would be about 30 persons per square mile. In about 1025 AD, the Eastern Empire (Byzantium) was about 525,000 square miles in area, and had about 12 million people (per Tredgold's figures, "A History of the Byzantine State and Society") - about 23 persons per square mile. Btw, the cash budget in 1025 was the equivilent of about 5,900,000 gp (Nomismata). That doesn't count non-cash revenues (corvee labor, other in-kind exactions like grain, etc). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:58:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > > Roman Empire circa 300 AD would be about 35-40 > million people. About 19 > million in the East, with a non-desert area of about > 620,000 sq. miles. > That would be about 30 persons per square mile. > > In about 1025 AD, the Eastern Empire (Byzantium) was > about 525,000 square > miles in area, and had about 12 million people (per > Tredgold's figures, "A > History of the Byzantine State and Society") - about > 23 persons per square > mile. Well, there you go! Thyatis is indeed quite crowded compared to its RW counterparts. BTW, I assume the pop density stats you gave were for mainland Thyatis as opposed to the whole empire, no? auf wiedershen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:06:19 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well, there you go! Thyatis is indeed quite crowded > compared to its RW counterparts. BTW, I assume the pop > density stats you gave were for mainland Thyatis as > opposed to the whole empire, no? > Right. The other areas (of both Empires) are effectively uninhabited, or inhabited at "hunter-gatherer" levels of population density (far less than 1 person per square mile). (btw, the probable reason for the density of the Empire circa 300 vs 1025 being higher is because the former included the densely-inhabited nile river valley - and note that the desert fringes were not included in the area; that would have dropped the population density for the ERE down considerably.) OtoH, Mystaran Darokin does end up being comparitively sparsely inhabited by these standards, as do all the other human areas (Demi-human nations, otoh, as previously mentioned, are fairly well packed) - but this isn't nessissarily a bad thing, because one has to have wide stretches of wilderness for the monsters and ruins to exist in. If it's all given over to farmland, it becomes a different world. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:26:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian >conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly >desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally >lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he >without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. >Traitor. I like Karameikos a lot as this is the most developed. But I really dislike how the second book downplays the role of Traldarans. The first book provides hints that the Traldarans really dislike being conquered by Thyatians and the current situation. Then the box set shows Traldarans content with the situation, as they could not have a better life. One thing that should be bothersome was the fabled city known for as the home of King Halav, was renamed after Baron Kelvin. I'm sure this would generate animosity. IMC, I role-play this dissension. I have an evil cultist group plotting creating a coup to overthrow the Duke, by bribing Barons and organizing Traldaran rebels, while at the same time framing Darokin for organizing the coup. At the same time, they are opening a window for Baron Ludwigs nastiness. Naturally, a non-hack-and-slash party has the chance to foil the plots of the cultists. HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:41:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: National Strengths Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thyatis is a difficult Empire to utilize for warfare mechanics. Typically the Mystara campaign has Thyatis as having technology similar to that of Byzantium, while other nations have more advanced (possibly closely guarded) secrets of ship design, siege warfare, etc. One thing to contrast between the Byzantium and the Dark Ages, is that Byzantium/Roman was fairly well organized. However, Byzantium Empire fell due to internal corruption, everyone trying to get to the throne, and by those that are suddenly blessed with riches and power, use this as indulgence and ignore managing and protecting the Empire. I would have Thyatis start out has a country with technology reflective of Byzantium Empire. Then gradually have them acquire the riches of technology through trade and conquest. The longbows would be effective and acquired through trade with the elves. The crossbows could be acquired by trade with dwarves. Shipping technology would be acquired immediately in order to compete in trade. The Thyatians could even eventually acquire firearms through Pearl Islands (assuming people role-play Chinese firesticks) or through trade with Slagovich. Surely afterwards the dwarves would improve on this model, and Thyatis would buy the resulting production. Depending on the trade routes, technology will spread as it has in the real world. One thing I wanted to comment, is that people often confuse the role of Vyalia. They are not human lovers. They do not teach their techniques to any Thyatian that comes along. They have their own self interests of preservation. It is healthy to cooperate with Thyatians for mutual protection. However, irregardless of the conquerer: Alphatians, Thyatians, Heldannic Knights, The Master of Hule, etc. the elves will remain neutral as much as possible for the interest of self-preservation. The Vyalians will only train humans that go through years of training and reflect their views. A Thyatian that goes through this training will have to change their loyalty to Thyatis to that of the preservation of nature and life. The Vyalians will trade technology and magic as needed for the mutual benefit and stability. However, they're not going to give away their deepest secrets to the Thyatian humans or any other group. -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:23:12 Master's Pawn wrote: >Remember in my post I came to the conclusion that though it could be argued >that this is how the Thyatians picked up the longbow (via the Vyalia elves, >who also teach them elven magic, something the Shiye don't do for >Alphatia), I came to the conclusion that IMO compound type bows were more >appropriate for Thyatis overall (though Master's Pawn's point about the >Foresters perhaps being known for their use of the longbow is well taken - >but that's different than saying Thyatis as a whole or Alphatia as a whole >or whatever is a hotbed of longbow proficiency). > >I hear you loud and clear. Could there be any harkening back to their Milenian roots that would result in the Thyatian Legions using scirmishers armed with slings and javelins as their primary missle weapons for harrassment. While they certainly could have bows (compound, what have you, I'm primarily thinking OD&D here,) but they might be Known/Feared for thier scirmishers. Of course, while you couldn't hire a legion (hmmm maybe a renagade general perhaps) I can see Hattain Mercenaries hired for their fast moving shock troops. > >I like the idea of a polyglot Alphatian army though. "Who knows what to expect from them," except in the rigidly organized Air and Sea naval units, perhaps. > >As for Crossbows, I think the Thyatians would have them for siege warfare and units dedicated for attacking Large Monsters and heavily armored cavalry. I see Darokin and, by extension, Glantri and Sind using light crossbows effectively. > >Cauzerine or Averoignian Lt. Crossbowman might be a known commodity on the battlefields of Brun. > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:48:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: Darokin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I originally read the texts for Darokin, I felt the same thing. Naturally, like America they would have desire to expand their borders for better trade via sea. There is only so much land trade that you can do. They are excluded from Slagovich without mercentile trading ability. I bet they might have some trade-treaties with both Karameikos and Five Shires in order to use their ports in the mean time. -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:48:21 Damon Brown wrote: >--- James Ruhland wrote: >> >> Only two Demi-Human areas are more densely populated >> than Darokin. Of >> course, Darokin has its densly populated areas (the >> Streel River Valley) >> and lightly populated areas (Malpheggi Swamp, >> Orcland, most of the >> Borderlands). > > I always thought that Darokin was kinda Mystara's >America, being the melting pot and all (especially >when you figure in the over-developed sense of >mercantilism). > > The location of the population would just reinforce >that impression, IMO. Especially when you look at the >Western US. Let's face it, not much (population-wise) >outside the big cities and some of the "less dense" >areas bare a striking resemblance to Darokin's >borderlands. > >> Turns out, lots of people live there. See above. In >> fact, Darokin is the >> 2nd highest populated nation in the KW, after >> Thyatis, just before Darokin. >> Of course, Thyatis is very densly populated: >> >> Pre WotI: 51.6 per sq. mile >> Post Thothian death wave: 43.5 per sq. mile. >> >> Almost makes the Shires look like a barren >> wasteland. > > Of course, by modern standards even Thyatis seems >pretty rural. Current U.S. population density is >roughly 74 per sq. mile. Then you can compare that to >Japan (about 1/2 the US pop in a country the size of >California) at 833 per sq. mile. > > That starts getting pretty OT, but it gives you a >point of reference for how much open area there still >is in the Known World... > >auf wiedersehen, >Damon > >===== >"He who laughs last... thinks slowest." >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:54:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, as Darokin touches all borders, one can adventure almost anywhere. So far IMC, I use Karameikos (AD&D2e) as this is well developed. Later, one player will run a campaign in Ylaruam (AD&D2e), and we'll also sample GURPS in a campaign inside Thyatis City. -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:26:03 David Knott wrote: >In a message dated 2000-01-19 02:15:43 Eastern Standard Time, >jason.murphy@MITSWA.COM.AU writes: > ><< For which i guess the chinese curse fits well..."May you live in > interesting times." > I guess it is say may your days be anything but comfortable and > familiar. >> > >Except for the fact that the Chinese are not familiar with that curse (best >evidence is that Robert Kennedy made it up), it is exactly what I was getting >at. Darokin is probably the best place for player characters to be from (as >they can get along with nearly anybody) but if you are looking for an >interest- >ing place to adventure then no place beats Glantri. > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:00:23 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Thyatians could even eventually acquire firearms through Pearl Islands > (assuming people role-play Chinese firesticks) or through trade with Slagovich. > They wouldn't get it from the Pearl Islands; I assume you were thinking of Ochalea. I for one think smokepowder weapons should stay where they are rather than spread throughout Mystara, but that's just me. > > One thing I wanted to comment, is that people often confuse the role of Vyalia. > They are not human lovers. > You mean they are not Karameikos-lovers> > > However, irregardless of the conquerer: Alphatians, Thyatians, Heldannic Knights, > The Master of Hule, etc. the elves will remain neutral as much as possible for the > interest of self-preservation. > Untrue. Read the DotE history; the elves helped Lucinius get rid of the Alphatians, they were not "neutral". Also, the Elves of Vyalia don't teach any tom dick and harry from whatever country Forester skills depending on whether they like the cut of their jib. True, they are selective about who they adopt. But they adopt Thyatians, not anyone who happens around. > The Vyalians will only train humans that go through years of training and reflect their views. A Thyatian that goes through this training will have to change their loyalty to Thyatis to that of the preservation of nature and life. > Again, inaccurate. Read DotE, it gives a more balanced portrayal. These guys certainly aren't a hotbed of disaffection against Thyatis, as you seem to imply they ought to be. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:22:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: hador Subject: R: [MYSTARA] Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Renato's preferred nation ( as player ) is Ylaruam, mine is Karameikos, that of Helios ( my son) is Ylaruam too. Good bye Nadia Tribaudino ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:28:39 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Mr. Darknerd" wrote: > > One thing that should be bothersome was the fabled > city known for as the home of King Halav, was > renamed after Baron Kelvin. I'm sure this would > generate animosity. IIRC, no one knew that the two places were one in the same when Kelvin founded the city. I believe that the Traladarans had "lost" the location of Lavv generations ago. Of course, I don't have either Gaz1 or K:KoA handy at the moment, so it could be my imagination. Does this sound reasonably familiar to anyone else out there? -Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:26:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New jokes. Sort of. If you tell an Ylarian he�s a Genius, he�ll try to fit in every lamp he sees. A man from Darokin finds it hard to believe in ideals. But for an adequate amount of money, he will surely try to. I firmly believe that the NACE will make Alphatia what it was once. A polar region covered with ice. Intuition. That marvelous instinct that tells a Heldannic Knight that he is right�even when he is not. When a Minrothad merchant and your money meet, they get along very fast. A Hattian: the more stupid he is, the more he thinks others are inferior. Everybody thinks that the Immortals are on their side. The rich and the powerful ones know that it�s so. If you help a Thyatian in trouble, he will remember you. The next time he�s in trouble. When I want to know what the Alphatians thinks, I ask myself. (heard from Eriadna) Thyatians love equipe work. It give them the chance of blame others when things go wrong. Half of the lies they tell about me are true. (heard from a Glantrian noble) Civilized orc. That sort of fellow that enters in a restaurant and orders a waiter. The difference between pre- and post-War Esterhold. Now you first vote and then receive the orders, before you didn�t waste any time voting. It�s not true that Dwarves don�t like horses. Dwarves are excellent riders. They have taught all their horses to jump over obstacles using the Fosbury method. What�s the fastest way to a vampire�s heart? Through the chest with a pointed stake. (Hey, Morphail�what are you doing here?�hey..no! no! NOOOOO!!!!) A Dwarf walks into an inn in Specularum, orders three pints of Kelvin Beer and sits in the back of the room, drinking a sip out of each one in turn. When he finishes them, he comes back to the desk and orders three more. The innkeeper asks him, 'You know, a pint goes flat after I draw it; it would taste better if you bought one at a time.' The Dwarf replies, 'Well, you see, I have two brothers. One is in Dengar, the other in Darokin, and I'm here in Specularum. When we all left home, we promised that we'd drink this way to remember the days when we drank together.' The innkeeper admits that this is a nice custom, and leaves it there. The Dwarf becomes a regular in the inn, and always drinks the same way: He orders three pints and drinks them in turn. One day, he comes in and orders two pints. All the other regulars notice and fall silent. When he comes back to the desk for the second round, the innkeeper says, 'I don't want to intrude on your grief, but I wanted to offer my condolences on your great loss.' The Dwarf looks confused for a moment, then a light dawns in his eye and he laughs. 'Oh, no,' he says, 'everyone's fine. I've just quit drinking.' The best people, like the best wines, come from the hills. (halfling proverb) Collected by Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis 'Hey, Captain. Don't you think you spend too much time in jokes, instead of trying to do your military duties?' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:42:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can just see it now... Live from the Improv in Thyatis City: Iulius Sergius Scaevola - One Night Only! "I just flew in from Lucinius and boy, are my arms tired!" Just kidding, Giulio. Nice stuff. Rodney Dangerfield would be proud! auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Mr. Darknerd wrote: > IMC, I role-play this dissension. I have an evil cultist group plotting > creating a coup to overthrow the Duke, by bribing Barons and organizing > Traldaran rebels, while at the same time framing Darokin for organizing > the coup. At the same time, they are opening a window for Baron Ludwigs > nastiness. Naturally, a non-hack-and-slash party has the chance to foil > the plots of the cultists. I agree whole-heartedly. I ran a campaign like this, full of plotting and counter-plotting and intrigue with the old Traladaran families and the insurgent Thyatian families. This is part of why I like Karameikos as much as I do. You have three Churches all working against each other, with one of them ready to schism. You have revolutionary Traladaran families ready to overthrow the monarchy, and manipulative Thyatian land-holders like Ludwig (and Lord Kelvin in my campaign) who care little for anything but their own power and are also looking to stab King Stefan in the back at a moment's notice. Throw in the Empire standing off to the side waiting for a good time to come and conquer the place, mix in a bunch of elvish refugees who think they're getting a bum deal and the place becomes a powderkeg ready to explode. You're right about the boxed set not paying enough attention to the feelings between the native Traladarans and the invading Thyatians. I think it was because Karameikos was supposed to be "generic fantasy-land" for the First Quest game. In my campaigns, I've had the Thyatians and the Traladarans get along well enough in the north (which I treat mainly as frontier), but struggle bitterly with each other in the southern, coastal lands (where the rich Traladaran families have power and lots of resentment). In the 3rd Edition campaign I'm already planning I'm mixing in a lot of this to make a situation that could bring about the destruction of the whole kingdom. Fun stuff. (And that's the country that I like the most. :) Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:06:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My favorite nation? Well, that depends. My favorite nation to have PCs from is Glantri. It's fun for a PC mage to enter the Glantrian politics and nobility. However, my favorite nation to DM (as certain people on this list well know) is definitely Hule. Nothing like weaving the web of intrigue and propaganda that is Hule :) "I speak the truth. You just need to look at it from the correct perspective. Let me show you..." - Master of Hule -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:48:42 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > It's been done for Alphatia, it's been done for Thyatis, so I said, why > not Darokin. So I present to you, the complete list of: > > 988 AC- the present Corwyn Mauntea (elected, still living) > Why Aaron, you didn't put King Roger Attleson (1007 AC-?) in there? :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:10:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: <3885F763.641C40F8@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Caroletti wrote: > It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian > conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly > desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally > lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he > without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. > Traitor. > > In a raving eccess of nationalism > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis (My good friend Pyotr had a few words to say to the good captain. I told him I'd pass them along...) Oh yes, Thyatian. You hope some "Traladaran" kills him so that the good nation of Thyatis can come and conquer the land again. Stefan's been good for our country, even if all of his nobles haven't. As for being a "traitor," our King is is true to his land, his new homeland, not to the crumbling Empire to the east, and he does what is best for HIS people. Divorcing our nation from the imperial body to the east is the best thing the King has done for us, and in doing so he proved that he in fact was "not like those Thyatian conquerors." (Now, if only he'd appoint more Traladaran barons...) Pyotr Magdanov Instructor of Divination and Planar Studies Karameikan School of Magecraft, Krakatos ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:28:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:10:34 Jeremy Morris wrote: >On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Caroletti wrote: > >> It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian >> conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly >> desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally >> lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he >> without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. >> Traitor. >> >> In a raving eccess of nationalism >> Iulius Sergius Scaevola >> Captain of the XXth Cohort >> Port Lucinius, Thyatis > >(My good friend Pyotr had a few words to say to the good captain. I told >him I'd pass them along...) > >Oh yes, Thyatian. You hope some "Traladaran" kills him so that the good >nation of Thyatis can come and conquer the land again. Stefan's been good >for our country, even if all of his nobles haven't. As for being a >"traitor," our King is is true to his land, his new homeland, not to the >crumbling Empire to the east, and he does what is best for HIS people. >Divorcing our nation from the imperial body to the east is the best thing >the King has done for us, and in doing so he proved that he in fact was >"not like those Thyatian conquerors." > Really?? The fact that he betrayed Thyatis when it was convenient is certainly what ultimately convinced me just how much he really *IS* a Thyatian at heart :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:44:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Karameikos (was: Poll: What is your preferred nation?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Throw in the Empire standing off to the side waiting for a good time to come >and conquer the place That's liberate, not conquer... :) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:13:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm... Despite what many of you might expect me to say (Undersea), I would have to say Darokin. It's just so big, so centeral, and it gets invaded by the Master! What more can you ask for? Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:48:51 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:06:09 +0200 Solmyr of the Azure Star writes: > However, my favorite nation to DM (as certain people on this list > well > know) is definitely Hule. Nothing like weaving the web of intrigue > and > propaganda that is Hule :) > > "I speak the truth. You just need to look at it from the correct > perspective. Let me show you..." > - Master of Hule Aghh... not again!!!! Run!!!!! Though the Master wasn't quite as bad as Elissa Pennydown. A PC can be more evil than any NPC... Although, MBirthright is probably the only time the words "Nathalie Kalimi, Chancellor of Darokin" have ever been written... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:07:09 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: The Rulers of Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:48:42 +0200 Solmyr of the Azure Star writes: > Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > > > It's been done for Alphatia, it's been done for Thyatis, so I > said, why > > not Darokin. So I present to you, the complete list of: > > > > > 988 AC- the present Corwyn Mauntea (elected, still living) > > > Why Aaron, you didn't put King Roger Attleson (1007 AC-?) in there? > :) OK I'll make you happy. Consider this the MBirthright addendum :): 988-1006 AC Corwyn Maunteau, Chancellor of Darokin (elected, deposed after fall of Akesoli and Akkoras to Master) 1006-1007 AC Greenleaf Vickers, Grand Master of the Darokinian Democratic Republic (fradulently elected, fled after invasion by Kingdom of Darokin) 1006-1007 AC Lucius Linton, Chancellor of Darokin (elected, resigned after fall of Darokin City to the Master) 1007 AC- the present Nathalie Kalimi, Chancellor of Darokin (elected, still in office) 1007 AC Mendel Callister, ruler of the Streel Plain (fraudulently elected, deposed by Master after he revealed his intention to return the Streel to its rightful rulers) 1007 AC- any day now the so-called "King" Roger I "Attleson", official Hulean lackey (appointed by Master, would have eneventually been defeated by the righteous Army of the Republic had the game continued :) In case any bystanders who weren't in the game can't tell, I played Nathalie Kalimi, and I wasn't fond of Greenleaf "the traitor" Vickers and the so-called "King of Darokin" Roger of no particular ancestery, possibly descended from orcs, and Hulean hired traitor to the beautiful ideals on which the Darokinian Republic is founded... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:10:09 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/2000 2:01:13 PM, morris@MCS.KENT.EDU writes: <> I've played with Mr. Darknerd as my GM (in real life too!), and while the politics are cool and stuff, it gets annoying to a certain extent when you can't breath without a traldaran accusing you of doing this or that, or a thyatian doing the same. It makes for EXTREMELY interesting conversations with NPC's, i'll tell you that. Maybe i just don't like cults and stuff, but i hate being watched over by all the NPC's, it's just eerie. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:12:29 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm somewhat worried about our poor captain, i mean, who's manning the ship while he's coming up with all this (in my opinion rather ODD) material? Sure they're good, but is someone accidentally going to steer into an icecap soon? Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: redrobyne Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > PS Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any > figures on ancient Rome or Byzantium? My initial guess > would be that they are comparable to Thyatis, but it > might be interesting to find out for sure. I'm sorry I don't know the net population but I do have some stats: My understanding was that most people lived in cities and very rarely in the country side. However wealthy families would often hold grand villas(usually just a large farm) in the country side and live their during the summer, because of the size of the property usually owned, most of the families slaves lived here all year round (only important or trusted ones went with them to their town houses). Any way Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch had around 100,000 inhabitants each (in their glory), other Roman cities (Saragossa, Marseille, Carthage, etc etc) all had 10,000-50,000 inhabitants. Of Course these are at the height of the Empire before it was run over by barbarians and the founding of the Byzantine Empire. I ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not familiar with how the Krondaharans practice inheritance law, but it might very well have nothing to do with a person's spellcasting ability. I would argue that primogenitur (Assuming this was the basis of the inheritance) is not in itself "gender bias". ----- Original Message ----- From: Agathokles To: Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Gender Biases in Mystara > jdaly wrote: > > > > That's another way of saying it. But I still don't understand how it is > > being applied. > > > > Uh? I believe that the thread was started by the Almanac event that led > Ralindi Virayana to replace Lan-Syn as Prince, which is due to the fact > that Krondaharans are rather prejudiced in favour of men (So Ralindi is > considered a more suitable heir even though Lan-Syn is older and more > competent as a spellcaster). > > -- > > > Giampaolo Agosta > > > agathokles@libero.it > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:56:50 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Murphy, Jason" Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > << For which i guess the chinese curse fits well..."May you live > in > interesting times." > I guess it is say may your days be anything but comfortable and > familiar. >> > > Except for the fact that the Chinese are not familiar with that curse > (best > evidence is that Robert Kennedy made it up), [MURPHY Jason] Wow....your crediting a politician with an original thought....you've obviously alot more faith in them than I. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:22:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:12:29 Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: >I'm somewhat worried about our poor captain, i mean, who's manning the ship >while he's coming up with all this (in my opinion rather ODD) material? Sure >they're good, but is someone accidentally going to steer into an icecap soon? > Well, naturally! That was the whole plan from the beginning, wasn't it? :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel wrote: > Really?? The fact that he betrayed Thyatis when it was convenient is certainly what ultimately convinced me just how much he really *IS* a Thyatian at heart :) > > - The Stalker of Alphatia Heh. Like I said, those are Pyotr's impressions, not mine ;) Personally, I'd guess that Stefan had been waiting for a good opportunity to separate himself from the Empire since he'd taken over Karameikos and the War was just a convenient time. He can excuse it all he wants, but stabbing his ally in the back like that might lead his other allies to look more closely at their alliances in the future. I'd guess that Stefan's siding with Alphatia in the war didn't endear him to the Glantrians either. Being caught between Thyatis and Glantri in a war wouldn't be my ideal position, even with Darokin and the Shires on my side. (Yet another thing to throw at my players later. Hopefully my players will be up for the challenge ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:22:08 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/19/2000 5:08:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: << However, my favorite nation to DM (as certain people on this list well know) is definitely Hule. Nothing like weaving the web of intrigue and propaganda that is Hule :) "I speak the truth. You just need to look at it from the correct perspective. Let me show you..." - Master of Hule >> I've gotta vote for Net-Hule, followed by Glantri and, call me crazy, the Northern Reaches. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:30 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: Caroletti 's message of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:41:55 +0100 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) >It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are >not like those Thyatian conquerors. We are >illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me >sickingly desire that some nationalist >Traladarian killed him, so he would finally lose >that appearance of goodness and protection, >especially since he without any remorse points >out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. >Traitor. >In a raving eccess of nationalism >Iulius Sergius Scaevola >Captain of the XXth Cohort >Port Lucinius, Thyatis Sir Elcalear Dracul, Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos, Reserve General of the Royal Karameikan Army, Dracologist of the Fourth Circle, Graduate of the Great School of Magic (Glantron), Licensed Necromorph Exterminator, replies to the good Captain "Actually I was a bit surprised at my liege's actions during the recent unpleasantness. My information was limited on the controversey surrounding magic in Glantri. I believed that we would send humanitarian aid to Thyatis at the very least. Then I was requested my my liege to go to the Darokin/Sind front and kill as many humanoids as I can. And then my liege declares himself King. I did not expect a title upgrade for two more generations at least. Now, it was necessary to stop the Huleans or they would have rolled over Darokin, the Shires and probably Karameikos as well. Now you, as a Captain, in the Thyatian military probably see my liege as disloyal. Karameikos has been an independent nation, free and clear of any fealty to Thyatis since 970. King Stefan traded Machetos and his family fortune for clear autonomous title to the Traladara region. And you must admit, more has been accomplished in the last 46 years to improve the region than was accomplished from 900 to 970. King Stefan probably believes he was being pragmatic. What many others might call treachery or "Thyatian treachery" is closer to excessive pragmatism. I can understand the Thyatian people's and Governments displeasure at what has occured. But we in Karmeikos have tried to maintain friendship with Thyatis. We aided you during the grain blight, for example. However any military retaliatian for any supposed treason or treachery will not be tolerated." CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:41:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics In-Reply-To: <01BF6214.03824440@Hrz-24-170.inter.net.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, the first (and to my knowledge, only) indication that Fenswick is based on English settlers from Laterre is found in Mark of Amber (one of the NPCs is described as being from Fenswick, a principality whose members were originally from England). ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:51:11 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Darokin In-Reply-To: <200001190533.AAA32010@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:31 PM 1/18/00 -0600, jruhlconob@sprynet.com wrote: > >Karameikos (Post WotI): 7.5 per sq. mile* > >*Karameikos' post-WotI population figures are all over the place as they >vacillated in how much to magnify the place. The figure 350,000 was used as >the median one. Others include 331,000 (PWA II) and 432,000 (PWA III) - >either the latter figure is wildly in error or we've found the "large >missing Alphatian armies stranded on the surface" that some folks are, >Diogenes-like, carrying a torch for - they belatedly settled in Karameikos. Aha! They must have stolen a cue from Bargle and been massmorphed into a tremendous forest in the wilderness regions! :) >Alfheim (Pre WotI): 10.1 per sq. mile*** > >***Alfheim is one of the more densely populated areas. . .and here we hear >about how elves preserve the wilderness, prefer low population densities, >etc etc ad nausium. Most human realms turn out to be less densely populated >than Alfheim. Other Demi-human realms, on the other hand, are teeming >cesspools of overpopulation compared to Alfheim, so I guess they were the >point of comparison. 8-)~ It could be argued that they can fit so many people into one place because they build up- into the trees. Consider them living skyscrapers. :) I've always wondered at the massive amount of elves living in Alfheim as compared to, oh, a larger forest like Shiye-Lawr... and they Shiye have been around just as long, so either the Shiye/Alphatian wars were tremendously brutal, or the Alfheim elves are really horny... (OT, here, but James- I found another reference to inter-Alphatian turmoil the other day- the one about how the Trollhattans sabotaged the island of Aegos out of competitive jealousy. Of course, I'd think the Emperor that decided to "beautify" the out of the way Alatian isles must also have been zzonga addicted...) >Rockhome: 24.3 per sq. mile They also live underground, so this figure is probably quite a bit lower. I'd say the surface area is very sparsely populated. Of course, I'm still trying to justify the humanoid ravages in Rockhome in last year's almanac. ;) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:57:56 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Politics In-Reply-To: <000301bf626a$1f5b5d40$28f217d2@fanavarro> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:47 AM 1/19/00 +0800, you wrote: > >According to the GPD, the notable Fenswick nationals include, of course, >the Hillsburys (Duke Edward, Duchess Margaret, and Princess Dolores) and >Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft (actually, half-Sylaire, half-Fenswick, and >totally anti-Kaelic!). The only problem with that (the John Beaumarys-Moorkroft thing) is that John B-M is mentioned as being related to the Moorkroft who drove the Feadiels out of the Sylvan Realm. Since that happened about 500 AC (IIRC), that means the Moorkrofts predate any sort of Fenswick migration to Mystara (which would have happened c.743 AC or so, around the time of the Klantyrian migration). So, unless the original Moorkroft emigrated to Mystara earlier than even the d'Ambrevilles (which is certainly possible, if you follow my theory about the d'Ambreville's "gate" being a stonehenge-like formation. There would have been many such formations- including Stonehenge itself- in England.) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:17:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: National Strengths In-Reply-To: <200001192002.PAA11396@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:00 PM 1/19/00 -0600, jruhlconob@sprynet.com wrote: > > I for one think smokepowder weapons should stay where they are >rather than spread throughout Mystara, but that's just me. Me, I don't mind gunpowder weapons (gunpowder, not smokepowder). As long as they're kept in balance. In the real world, it took hundreds of years before they became commonplace, and I don't personally see any reason why they should spread any quicker in a world with magic. And since I don't plan on running any campaigns for hundreds of years, that's fine by me. I am a bit concerned by the sudden development of smokepowder weapons on the Savage Coast in the AD&D releases for that region. They went from smokepowder to wheellocks in a matter of a few decades, IIRC. And (unfortunately) this was accelerated yet again in our own Mystara Almanac 1015 (where flintlocks! are introduced). There were several decades, if not centuries (well, at least one) between RW wheellocks and flintlocks. That has me more alarmed than the introduction of gun/smokepowder. >Untrue. Read the DotE history; the elves helped Lucinius get rid of the >Alphatians, they were not "neutral". Also, the Elves of Vyalia don't teach >any tom dick and harry from whatever country Forester skills depending on >whether they like the cut of their jib. True, they are selective about who >they adopt. But they adopt Thyatians, not anyone who happens around. Yep. They don't interact with anyone else, for some strange reason. They don't do much of anything in the Karameikos Gaz (even with the Callarii elves!) and it isn't until the Thyatis Gaz that we learn anything about them worthwhile. Makes me wonder what the Thyatians have on them. ;) (What about it James? When are you going to write something about it? I'm sure you've got some ideas on the topic.) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:14:29 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I am a bit concerned by the sudden development of smokepowder weapons on >the Savage Coast in the AD&D releases for that region. They went from >smokepowder to wheellocks in a matter of a few decades, IIRC. And >(unfortunately) this was accelerated yet again in our own Mystara Almanac >1015 (where flintlocks! are introduced). There were several decades, if not >centuries (well, at least one) between RW wheellocks and flintlocks. What did puzzle me slightly is that the Savage Coast completely skipped over cannons, which you would have thought would the first thing they made. (or petards). IMC matchlock muskets and arquebuses are the most common weapons on the Savage Coast. Wheellocks are used by swashbucklers, gauchos, and by the odd noble for self defence. Recently Cimmaron has come up with a snaplock musket and snaplock pistol, but they aren't common outside Cimmaron, where most nations are happy enough with matchlock/wheellock guns. I also assume that smokepowder was discovered a lot earlier than in the canonical timeline - just after the Baronies were set up. So they have had about 100 years of development time. Its still quite fast (at that rate, in another fifty years they would have gatling guns, and in enough fifty probably Maxim machine guns) - if that long. You would have things like exploding shells, ironclad ships.... no, its too much. I like the idea of the Savage Baronies having technology around 16th/17th century Europe. Any more advanced stuff than that is a bad idea, IMO. And I think having smokepowder function off the Savage Coast to be a very bad move. IMC it is still possible for wizards and alchemists to make smokepowder - as in, Dungeon Masters guide smokepowder, a rare and difficult to make magical item - which allows guns to be used in very small numbers (ie, the PCs) but not deployed in large numbers. It also prevents the use of 50 kegs of smokepowder to level the Imperial Palace, which is the other problem. Just IMO. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:24:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy Morris ha scritto: > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Caroletti wrote: > > > It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian > > conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly > > desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally > > lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he > > without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. > > Traitor. > > > > In a raving eccess of nationalism > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > > Captain of the XXth Cohort > > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > (My good friend Pyotr had a few words to say to the good captain. I told > him I'd pass them along...) > > Oh yes, Thyatian. You hope some "Traladaran" kills him so that the good > nation of Thyatis can come and conquer the land again. Stefan's been good > for our country, even if all of his nobles haven't. As for being a > "traitor," our King is is true to his land, his new homeland, not to the > crumbling Empire to the east, and he does what is best for HIS people. > Divorcing our nation from the imperial body to the east is the best thing > the King has done for us, and in doing so he proved that he in fact was > "not like those Thyatian conquerors." > > (Now, if only he'd appoint more Traladaran barons...) > > Pyotr Magdanov > Instructor of Divination and Planar Studies > Karameikan School of Magecraft, Krakatos If I remember correctly, before Stefan went to Karameikos or- sorry- Traladara, Thyatians meddled with Traladara only about ONE thing. Taxes. Apart from that, Traladarian nobles ruled politically the country, and the most important family was Marilenev. Now, after Karameikos came, the situation changed a lot. For the first thing, his sense of grandeur were pleased by the change of name in the country; then, uncaring of all Traladarian nobles, he put Thyatians in charge of almost anything. Then, he allowed Ludwig Von Hendriks to do whatever he wanted for 42 years. Then again, he betrayed his old country, that had recognized his indipendence without any problem, thinking of Karameikos as a western friendly ally, refusing to aid it in the War against Alphatia. And, in addition, he was a FRIEND of Thincol. Very well done, Stefan. I've nothing against Karameikos' indipendence, nor does any Thyatian have, it's just that Stefan...agh...he's so awful. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:24:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel ha scritto: > -- > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:10:34 Jeremy Morris wrote: > >On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Caroletti wrote: > > > >> It was just the typical Stefan move. 'We are not like those Thyatian > >> conquerors. We are illuminated...conquerors.' Nearly make me sickingly > >> desire that some nationalist Traladarian killed him, so he would finally > >> lose that appearance of goodness and protection, especially since he > >> without any remorse points out 'how really nasty those Thyatians are'. > >> Traitor. > >> > >> In a raving eccess of nationalism > >> Iulius Sergius Scaevola > >> Captain of the XXth Cohort > >> Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > >(My good friend Pyotr had a few words to say to the good captain. I told > >him I'd pass them along...) > > > >Oh yes, Thyatian. You hope some "Traladaran" kills him so that the good > >nation of Thyatis can come and conquer the land again. Stefan's been good > >for our country, even if all of his nobles haven't. As for being a > >"traitor," our King is is true to his land, his new homeland, not to the > >crumbling Empire to the east, and he does what is best for HIS people. > >Divorcing our nation from the imperial body to the east is the best thing > >the King has done for us, and in doing so he proved that he in fact was > >"not like those Thyatian conquerors." > > > > Really?? The fact that he betrayed Thyatis when it was convenient is certainly what ultimately convinced me just how much he really *IS* a Thyatian at heart :) > > - The Stalker of Alphatia And the fact that you enter a discussion when no one asked you to is typical Alphatian. But probably you just destroyed the discussion you were having with some other using your magics, and decided to join our own. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis (Oh, I love, love, love in character discussions) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:24:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meltheim Shadowstalker ha scritto: > I'm somewhat worried about our poor captain, i mean, who's manning the ship > while he's coming up with all this (in my opinion rather ODD) material? Sure > they're good, but is someone accidentally going to steer into an icecap soon? > > Meltheim the Shadowstalker > Infiltrator to the Immortals > Devotee of Fate > Eyes of the Starwatcher No problems. I am Captain of a Cohort, land unit; ships are not under my jurisdiction. What does ODD mean? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:24:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Rogers ha scritto: > Sir Elcalear Dracul, Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos, Reserve > General of the Royal Karameikan Army, Dracologist of the Fourth Circle, > Graduate of the Great School of Magic (Glantron), Licensed Necromorph > Exterminator, replies to the good Captain > > "Actually I was a bit surprised at my liege's actions during the recent > unpleasantness. My information was limited on the controversey > surrounding magic in Glantri. I believed that we would send > humanitarian aid to Thyatis at the very least. King Stefan probably > believes he was being pragmatic. What many others > might call treachery or "Thyatian treachery" is closer to excessive > pragmatism. > > I can understand the Thyatian people's and Governments displeasure at > what has occured. But we in Karmeikos have tried to maintain friendship > with Thyatis. We aided you during the grain blight, for example. > However any military retaliatian for any supposed treason or treachery > will not be tolerated." No military intervention. When I spoke, it was just a personal opinion, surely not that of the Army nor that of the Thyatian Government. It's just a displeasure to me that such a thing happened. I were at the same time displeased by Ochalea and Pear Islands, and had, with great sorrow, to admit that Alphatians allies were much more loyal than our own. And that even if we consider that: 1) Ochalea and Pearl Islands were full status citizens of the Empire 2) Karameikos had been granted indipendence by Thyatis; many Thyatians live there; Stefan Karameikos was a close friend of Thincol Torion. I think that Stefan could have stayed away from the war, and maybe, trying to be objective, I could also agree with his move. It's always difficult to enter a war with a losing party, especially when you are probably the next to be attacked. But I believe that he had no need to sho himself friendly with the Alphatians, tell that he had no tie with Thyatis, and play Mr. Indifference at the destiny of his former compatriots. He should have just declared neutrality. But no. It was not enough. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:38:03 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >However, I suppose only Morphail and Sophora know this spell, and the Boldavian Prince has no need for it. Giampaolo Agosta I disagree. I think Morphail has heard of it (What is he High Master of Necromancy for?) but being a vampire, he doesn't need it. As for Genevieve de Sephora, MoA makes it clear that Genevieve methodically ages, "dies", takes longevity potions, comes back as her own granddaughter and inherits her "recently deceased" grandmother's legacy. Dame Diane de Moriamis, I've explained is magically preserved in a perpetual state of fat old matron (If not, she would have done something about her baldness already!) by a freak lab accident. And even the time-travelling Moriamis ages with her chosen husband-of-the-century, letting him die, then revitalizes herself. Perhaps other long-lived Glantrian nobles, but not these I've mentioned. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanvarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:46:24 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Sarcastic Mystara Part Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >A man from Darokin finds it hard to believe in ideals. But for an adequate amount of money, he will surely try to. I like this one! >Everybody thinks that the Immortals are on their side. The rich and the powerful ones know that it's so. And this one. >Half of the lies they tell about me are true. (heard from a Glantrian noble) And this one the best! >Collected by Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis >'Hey, Captain. Don't you think you spend too much time in jokes, instead of trying to do your military duties?' Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri who's job is to collect quotes and rumors and sayings... fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:03:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Polit Comments: To: jsmill@WANS.NET > At 10:47 AM 1/19/00 +0800, you wrote: >> >>According to the GPD, the notable Fenswick nationals include, of > course, >>the Hillsburys (Duke Edward, Duchess Margaret, and Princess Dolores) > and >>Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft (actually, half-Sylaire, > half-Fenswick, and >>totally anti-Kaelic!). > > The only problem with that (the John Beaumarys-Moorkroft thing) is > that > John B-M is mentioned as being related to the Moorkroft who drove the > Feadiels out of the Sylvan Realm. Since that happened about 500 AC > (IIRC), > that means the Moorkrofts predate any sort of Fenswick migration to > Mystara > (which would have happened c.743 AC or so, around the time of the > Klantyrian migration). > When we discussed in GPD-group about this I was proposing that Moorkrofts were originally Darokinian. Glantrian branch came to Glantri say somewhere in the early 800's and settled in Fenswick. After living there nearly 200 years Moorkrofts themselves and other local considered them as native Fenswickians. Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: National Strengths Rob wrote: >And I think having smokepowder function off the Savage Coast to be a very >bad move. IMC it is still possible for wizards and alchemists to make >smokepowder - as in, Dungeon Masters guide smokepowder, a rare and difficult >to make magical item - which allows guns to be used in very small numbers >(ie, the PCs) but not deployed in large numbers. It also prevents the use >of 50 kegs of smokepowder to level the Imperial Palace, which is the other >problem. I think, IMC, if I ever come to a point where I have to decide, I'll probably leave out firearms if at all possible. Besides, the VotPA series detailled the Cimmaron six-shooter mini-crossbow, which is more than adequate to provide a wild-west feel. If gun/smokepowder ever come to exist IMC, most likely it will be developed in very tiny quantities by alchemists, or by enterprising gnomes who have spent too much time out in the wilderness. :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? In-Reply-To: <3886E244.78F067C8@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Again, Pyotr has a few comments to make about the good Captain's missive... On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Caroletti wrote: > If I remember correctly, before Stefan went to Karameikos or- sorry- > Traladara, Thyatians meddled with Traladara only about ONE thing. > Taxes. > Apart from that, Traladarian nobles ruled politically the country, and the > most important family was Marilenev. Oh-ho, good captain, I beg to differ. Traladara was not a single state before the Thyatians came. Rather, it was a collection of feuding city-states with many petty families arguing over who would be high king. The Thyatians came in and conquered the land (admittedly, not a difficult thing with no unified defense) and these distinguished families put up no resistance. Traladara became a vassal state to the Empire. I think that you do not understand the immense psychological affect that King Stefan has on some of our population. For the first time in millenia, one person sits in rulership of the land. There may be quite a few old families that still chafe at the fact that the one to unite the land is an outsider, but the fact remains that the King's Law is the law of the entire land. Why do you think those loons in the Cult of Halav worship the man? Because no-one, not even the Empire, has managed to unite the lands of all of Traladara into one nation for over 2000 years! > Now, after Karameikos came, the situation changed a lot. > For the first thing, his sense of grandeur were pleased by the change of name > in the country; then, uncaring of all Traladarian nobles, he put Thyatians > in charge of almost anything. Then, he allowed Ludwig Von Hendriks to > do whatever he wanted for 42 years. Then again, he betrayed his old country, > that had recognized his indipendence without any problem, thinking of > Karameikos as a > western friendly ally, refusing to aid it in the War against Alphatia. And, in > addition, he was a FRIEND of Thincol. Of course the man changed the name of the country - it didn't have a name! And it wasn't really a country. The people had a name, but it was just the "Region of the people of Traladara", which the Empire named Traladara as a convinience. Changing the name of the nation also enabled him to speak of Karameikans, a neutral third name for his citizens that was not biased towards either side. The matter of Baron von Hendricks was a mistake, and a regretable one. King Stefan is not perfect, by any means, and he has made a number of decisions that have been bad ones in my oh-so-humble opinion. However, it does ring very false when a Thyatian points fingers about such matters, considering what the Emperor has historically allowed when given the right amount of money. As for Thyatis recognizing his independence without problem - I think you need to look back at your history, friend. The Emperor only accepted King Stefan's proposal because he needed the money. Had the empire been in better shape financially, King Stefan would have been laughed out of the Imperial palace. The Emperor took the money, and was probably waiting for an opportunity to take the lands he granted King Stefan back ever since. As for the King's "betrayal" of Thyatis - I contend that he did what was best for HIS people, which included NOT getting entangled in a war between Alphatia and Glantri. There was nothing for Karameikos to gain and everything to lose. The Emperor would have sold out Karameikos in a heartbeat if it was for the good of his Empire, as he should as a good ruler. You seem to be forgetting the fact that Karameikos is an independet nation, and we did send food and other relief to Thyatis AND we maintain good economic ties. Militarily, it made little sense for Karameikos to remain anything but neutral. Notice that the King did not send military support to Alphatia either, he merely kept his nation out of the war - a wise decision in my mind. And as for putting Thyatians in power over the Traladarans, this is another matter where I personally feel that King Stefan is mistaken. There should be more barons of Traladaran descent in the leadership of the nation if King Stefan wants the nation to truly remain a united Karameikos. I am, however, but a humble mage, and my opinion probably matters little to the King. > Very well done, Stefan. Yes, I agree. Wel done King Stefan. > I've nothing against Karameikos' indipendence, nor does any Thyatian have, > it's just that Stefan...agh...he's so awful. King Stefan is a man (contrary to what those loony Cultists believe), and as such he can make mistakes my good Captain. However, I truly feel that the King has the best interests of his nation at heart, and almost everything he has done has been to build Karameikos into a stronger, more civilized nation. I can only believe that the King and his heir, the Crown Princess, have learned from these mistakes and will only make new and different ones in the future. Pyotr Magdanov Instructor - Divination and Planar Studies Karameikan School of Magecraft, Krakatos ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:42:17 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think, IMC, if I ever come to a point where I have to decide, I'll probably leave out firearms if at all possible. Besides, the VotPA series detailled the Cimmaron six-shooter mini-crossbow, which is more than adequate to provide a wild-west feel. If gun/smokepowder ever come to exist IMC, most likely it will be developed in very tiny quantities by alchemists, or by enterprising gnomes who have spent too much time out in the wilderness. :-) Geoff So who would be the known smokepowder folk in the SC? Cimmaron Gunslingers? Along the original lines (pre-gun tech debate): Can we also securely say that Darokin Pikemen are known all the way back to Greatrealm as typical units from the Republic? And does the Thyatian Emperor still import Ostland Swordsmen for his personal guard? What about his Dwarvish Poison tester? One of the things that got this whole thread started was my love of the old games Divine Right and Kingmaker. Both made troops and mercenaries have unique feels to them. I was also sparked by the Lngsword/Longbow/Chainmail syndrom of the PWA army lists and a short thread on the MMB about KW mercenaries. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:52:29 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent post in this debate began as follows: "Sir Elcalear Dracul, Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos, Reserve General of the Royal Karameikan Army, Dracologist of the Fourth Circle, Graduate of the Great School of Magic (Glantron), Licensed Necromorph Exterminator, replies to the good Captain" While you are more than able to but anyone you want in your campaign in the GSoM, what do folks think in general about the difficulty of getting in? I didn't think that every mage in Glantri went there, that there were still quite a few who got trained at home, "hedge style" or in the respective "State Universities" of their home Principality. Also, what are the barriers to foriegners getting in? And if admitted, would an outsider stand a chance of being admitted into a secret society? I'm not picking on the chracter . . .go for it . . . but in general how is this handled in List campaigns? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:50:43 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > (OT, here, but James- I found another reference to inter-Alphatian turmoil > the other day- the one about how the Trollhattans sabotaged the island of > Aegos out of competitive jealousy. Of course, I'd think the Emperor that > decided to "beautify" the out of the way Alatian isles must also have been > zzonga addicted...) > Who knows what those guys are thinking at any given time. *shrug* - at least he didn't pick artic Yaniffey. > >Rockhome: 24.3 per sq. mile > > They also live underground, so this figure is probably quite a bit lower. > I'd say the surface area is very sparsely populated. Of course, I'm still > trying to justify the humanoid ravages in Rockhome in last year's almanac. > ;) > Yes, I thought about including a notation to that effect when I posted the pop. figures. One other point, this time re. Bruce's spreadsheet - it's very useful, but I do have a couple of quibbles (waiting for him to decloak so I can bring them up) - one of them is that it's very hard to properly model a Dwarven realm because the "mountains" will only accept densities up to "borderlands" - which means you have to artificially alter some of the hexes terrain in order to do Rockhome, for example. For most realms & races it's probably appropriate to have the mountain terrain restricted to "borderlands" densities, but for Dwarves (and probably Shadow Elves & most Humanoids) it doesn't work out very well. Otherwise, heck - I was able to do something I thought would be impossible, and get a Thyatis mainland with @ 2,700,000 people, and that's probably one of the more "extreme" examples, and I didn't think the Spreadsheet would handle it very well, but it did ok overall. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:53:30 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Poll: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow. Watching the "favorite nation" poll I'm rather surprised at how popular Darokin is. I guess I shouldn't be (it is one of the more interesting & sprawling nations) - but what strikes me is that there is so little discussion about it on the list, so little materiel on it at Stan's site (which is a reflection of how much people have talked about a country or posted descriptions/details/ideas related to it). So consider this a plea and request that some of the folks who like Darokin post some of the stuff they must have created related to it. Either that or we always end up going back to the same old topics. Lets have some Daro stuff! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Yep. They don't interact with anyone else, for some strange reason. They > don't do much of anything in the Karameikos Gaz (even with the Callarii > elves!) and it isn't until the Thyatis Gaz that we learn anything about > them worthwhile. Makes me wonder what the Thyatians have on them. ;) > > (What about it James? When are you going to write something about it? I'm > sure you've got some ideas on the topic.) > I'll probably write something about it sooner or later. Right now I'm in the middle of a couple largish projects (the main one I'm trying to complete right now is a fully developed timeline of the Thyatian people from BC 1000 to AC 1000+. I finally reached the ACs tuesday but haven't finnished the 1st Century AC yet). While I'm working on that I might put in some info re. why the Vyalia & the Thyatians signed a pact, why the Vyalians became a Thyatian dominion, etc. I will note that in the DotE DMSB "History of Thyatis" section (not the version in the PGtT that people can dismiss too easily) it is said that the elves of the western forests (those would be the Vyalia & possibly even the Callarii) helped in the struggle against the Alphatians - and unlike the Dwarves they aren't noted as being mercenaries. So the implication is they did it of their own accord. Seems to imply some sort of kindred spirit, or at least mutual antipathy (not neutrality) for the Alphatians. I suppose that's an angle I should develop more (I admit so far I haven't put an explaination of that or such a relationship in my timeline - something I missed.) Anyhow, re. that Timeline, don't look for it being posted on the list any time soon because I'm going to see if the Tome of Mystara is interested in it first, and if they are they'd get first crack at it. It's getting rather huge to post on the list anyhow. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:16:05 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Can we also securely say that Darokin Pikemen are known all the way back to Greatrealm as typical units from the Republic? > I donno - that would be boring, since it would make things seem too static. IMO they could be known for having good footmen (shield-wall type spear and axemen), with some rugged cavalry (the era of Darokinian kings seemed a mite more militant than the current Republic is) - the foot dudes evolve into Citizen-pikemen as Darokin becomes more refined, and the cavalry fades a bit into the backround, but develops into a small but dashing arm of light skirmishers. > And does the Thyatian Emperor still import Ostland Swordsmen for his personal guard? > Yes but no - sure Oslander dudes, but It's better if they're carrying an axe in one hand and a winebag in the other, it looks more real that way. Swordsmen? One can get those anywhere. I guy with a fuzzy beard and a huge axe? Now that's poetry. > What about his Dwarvish Poison tester? > Problem is he probably has a magic item that makes him immune to poison. But sure, why not? Plus, Dwarves have nice, flat heads - so when the Emperor is walking around, he has a place to set his beverage, and it'll stay with him while he strolls (the Dwarf can keep up, right?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: National Strengths >So who would be the known smokepowder folk in the SC? > >Cimmaron Gunslingers? Well, the aranea would likely have the resources to produce smokepowder, but of the main SC baronies, etc., I'm not sure (thought they would all love to get some). I suggested gnomes because, IMO, they've always seemed the most "pro-tech" (next to dwarves) of the races - they don't have much in the way of strength of magical ability, but what they do have is bloody-minded ingenuity - at least the equal of most human nations. Why lose your clan to a 'noid raid (because none of you are all that strong), when you can build machines and semi-magical weapons to do the job? Ethan's done some wonderful work in this field... In my mind's eye, I can see some PCs wandering the badlands, and all of a sudden be attacked by a sole gnomish prospector, armed with a home-made musket. "Git yer hide of'n mah real-estate!" :-) >Can we also securely say that Darokin Pikemen are known all the way back to Greatrealm as typical units from the Republic? Possibly, depends on how much he pays his spies in Darokin. Mind, though, that pikemen (according to the Gaz) are what makes such a large nation like Darokin remotely defensible. Though I still believe that large portions of the country ought to be only nominally under central control - besides Orcland, of course. >And does the Thyatian Emperor still import Ostland Swordsmen for his personal guard? Better talk to James about that one - Antalian Guard, anyone? >What about his Dwarvish Poison tester? Ah well, that was true until the Great Undersized Strike of '03, when all the little people throughout the Known World protested unfair stereotyping by Immortals, Old Ones, and DMs alike. Halflings refused to be homey, dwarves refused to mine gold and hack humanoids with axes, and gnomes were deliberately uncreative. As I remember, the entire campaign almost ground to a halt before the Powers That Be gave in. But that's another story... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:29:06 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: New item - Zhochal Shocklance] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'Me'") Subject: New item - Zhochal Shocklance Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:12:49 -0500 Zhochal Shocklance: Although the Zhochal are hideous enough on their own, and are physically more than a match for most creatures their own size, they do possess their own weapons and other assorted equipment that serve to make them even more deadly. The primary weapon of choice among this otherworldly race is the "shocklance" - a term coined by one adventurer who was lucky enough to venture to one of their remote citadels, and return alive. In the Zhochal language, the name they have given this weapon is utterly unpronounceable to native Mystarans. In appearance, shocklances measure between six and eight feet in length, weigh eight pounds (80 cn), and in thickness are roughly similar to a staff. It is clear, by looking at one, which end is which; the "front" end flares outwards at its tip, ending in four barbed protuberances curving inwards once more, while the "rear" portion is rather bulbous, and covered with slots and grooves of varying width, as well as a handful of chitinous protrusions. Their colouring ranges from a sickly green to a dark grey. These weapons are clearly not made of wood; their texture is different (being uneven and thorny), and they are slightly flexible. What truly makes these items unique is that they are always warm to the touch, and, if one observes them for a prolonged period, they will notice that shocklances pulsate slowly - as though they were "alive". Such an impression is not, in fact, far from the truth. These weapons are made from living alien tissue, the origin of which has been forgotten even by the Zhochal themselves. The Zhochal "grow" these weapons within their citadels, where they float in tanks filled with liquefied nutrients (which are themselves extracted from other products produced by the Zhochal, as well as the occasional captive). As they are composed of living material, shocklances will "die" if they are not immersed in their nutrient baths at least once per week, for a period of 24 hours. Each shocklance contains enough stored energy to fire up to 16 normal blasts on concentrated electricity (each of which inflicts 3d6 damage to the target, unless a saving throw vs. Death Ray is made for half damage). The ranges for this weapon are 0-30 feet for short range, 31-100 feet for medium range, and 101-200 feet for long range. The user may adjust the settings by manipulating the various protrusions - an action which takes one round to perform. If they do so, the shocklance can also fire more powerful blasts (which inflict 6d6 damage and consume two "charges"; a fully-charged shocklance can only fire up to eight times at this setting), or one tremendous burst (which inflicts 12d6 damage and consumes all of the energy within the weapon, which must be fully-charged beforehand). In both of the latter cases, a successful saving throw vs. Death Ray will halve the damage. Once a shocklance's charges have been spent, it will be useless until it is placed within a nutrient bath, which will restore its charges at a rate of one every three hours. Additionally, shocklances may be set to a "stun" mode, which consumes no charges and stuns victims for 2d4 rounds each time they are jabbed with the weapon; users must roll to hit their opponents in this case. Should an adventuring party obtain a shocklance, thinking that it would provide them with added power, they are in for a surprise. The first obstacle is using the weapon: Shocklances were designed with Zhochal physiology in mind, and this includes having four tentacled appendages to serve as arms. The slots and grooves located at the rear end of the weapon are the grips in which tentacles are inserted, and the protrusions are the actual controls which change the weapon settings - and fire it. Needless to say, a two-armed humanoid will not be able to hold the weapon, change its settings, and fire it in nearly as co-ordinated a manner as a Zhochal. The second obstacle is the technique of changing the settings themselves - no less than two controls must be manipulated to do so. Also, the absence of instructions of any sort on the shocklance could pose a problem; Zhochal wielders change the settings through a combination of manipulating the controls and applying pressure in various places. As a result, non-Zhochal wielders will be unable to change the settings on any shocklance they obtain. Even firing the weapon would be a considerable accomplishment; those who have not been taught how to do so must figure it out through trial and error - a process requiring three successful half-Intelligence checks (this needs to be performed only once; as all shocklances have their controls in the same location). The final problem is that, as the shocklance is composed of living material, it requires nutrients to survive. As non-Zhochal wielders are unlikely to have access to a supply of the nutrients, in the appropriate quantities and proportions. This means, of course, that the weapon will "die" soon after being acquired. Despite these limitations, however, shocklances have their uses. For a short time, they can bolster a party's strength (provided they figure out how to use it), and even after the weapon has "died", it would be valuable to an alchemist or a wizard purely because of its construction. In terms of usable ingredients for experiments and the like, the average shocklance can fetch 200 to 500 gp, depending on its condition. A "live" shocklance could easily command twice this price. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:29:35 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > While you are more than able to but anyone you want in your campaign in the GSoM, what do folks think in general about the difficulty of getting in? I didn't think that every mage in Glantri went there, that there were still quite a few who got trained at home, "hedge style" or in the respective "State Universities" of their home Principality. Also, what are the barriers to foriegners getting in? And if admitted, would an outsider stand a chance of being admitted into a secret society? > > I'm not picking on the chracter . . .go for it . . . but in general how is this handled in List campaigns? > 1) That particular one was an example of the uber-Mage I was talking about before, in another thread. BUT I also have to admit that if I wanted to one of my own characters could rattle off a similarly extensive littany (if not longer), so I'm hardly an exception to that. Long-running characters tend to develop a long list of capabilities. At least if they're mages (the opportunities aren't as easily available to other classes - again see that thread where I lamented that fact but had no solution to it). 8-)~ 2) IMO characters (PCs or NPCs) get into places like the Great School of Magic because there is a campaign need or desire (you want to play one of those GSoM based campaigns as outlined in the Gaz, or have an excuse as to why you learned this or that secret craft - in the latter instance I'd say there should be a lot of bribery and coniving/scheming involved in order to secure difficult to aquire slots. Doubly so for foreigners. Getting into the GSoM was an adventure in and of itself for my character at the time). 3) No where near every mage in Glantri, much less mages from all over the world, can learn at the GSoM - it just isn't big enough. So obviously they're very selective in the students they let in, and (as I said above) doubly selective about foreigners. Relatives of Glantri's Princes probably have an "in", a big advantage in the admission process (after all, they're the ones with the money purses - same as IRL as far as that goes). Others get in by grit, determination, and showing exceptional aptitude (how is that determined? I suppose the wizards have all sorts of ways). I bet each Principality has a "branch" of the GSoM ("University of Glantri at Boldovia" but probably without the title) - and it's like going to one of the "lesser" branches of a State college back in the USA (It's a bit more prestegious to go to the UW-Madison than to, say, Milwaukee, even if the latter gives you almost as good an education - or in some areas a better education). And yes, lots of hedge wizards, guys who just get apprenticed to the local crank who happens to know a few spells, and the like. In fact, it might be fun to create a Glantrian character who has to "live down" the fact that "he didn't make it to the ivy league" but had to study under one mage as an apprentice like all those poor benighted slubs in the back of beyond, outside Glantri (Alphatia notwithstanding, I'm comparing with KW nations here). Outsiders can probably get into a Secret Society (IIRC, Geryind in Ierendi is a 3rd or 4th Circle Fire Elementalist), but it's probably harder "breaking into" the "old Wizard's Network" and there is probably a "Wall of Force Cealing" - you won't see foreigners as 5th Circle poohbahs. . .unless they become natives (Glantri is full of former ex-foreigners, it makes Darokin seem exculsionary). That's where the bribery, coniving, scheming, and ingratiating comes in handy (I wouldn't recomend blackmail, since you want these guys to teach you their craft, and they'd probably get a mite irritable if you were holding something over them to get their cooperation. But to each their own). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:40:43 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > Of course, if everyone and their uncle keeps using longbows dispite your > admonishment that the use of the longbow should be restricted, then I don't > see any reason why the Thyatians shouldn't keep it as well. IMC, only elves use longbows, and rakastas use daikyu. >Most nations > should use shortbows, probably. Or in the KW region crossbows should be > prevalent (but probably with beefed up damage. ROF is fine, but damage > seems a bit low). Kerendans should use heavy crossbows, as do dwarves, of course. And I would use the revised damage for crossbows: S+/M L Heavy 1d8+1 1d10+1 Light 1d6+1 1d8+1 from player's option. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:41:26 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: READ THIS!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, maybe the heldannic knights can be "Mileniuphobes". It suits well = both with their national attitudes and thier ancient history (the = Hattians didn't absorb the elements of Millenian culture as opposed to = the Kerendans and Thyatians). -- Kit Navarro wrote: Taken out of context, this statement could be viewed as rather... = "Milenian" if you know what I mean. ;) Hmmm... With the present talk of gender issues and patriarchies, it = makes me wonder about the rest of Mystara. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Well, historically, Claudio Glantri was. He loved those Thyatian gladiators, they say. And Gaston d'Ambreville too. Which one? The = artist, of course! He's the only d'Ambreville who's not married yet. And I heard = that Sir Boris Gorevitch-Woszlany (Yes, Prince Morphail's brother!) was seen kissing this handsome Krondaharan youth at Princess Carnelia's party = last week. No, not just a peck! A deep passionate kiss down the neck! That = lad was in ecstacy, they say. Now what else could that mean?" --Noussoir du Marais, piecing together some interesting bits of gossip, = when someone metioned 'casting spells for the other school' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:09:54 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Along the original lines (pre-gun tech debate): > >Can we also securely say that Darokin Pikemen are known all the way back to Greatrealm as typical units from the Republic? Not so sure about the others, but the pics of the Darokinian soldiers in the gaz remind me of 17th century roundheads or something similar. I assume they use pike and crossbow tactics (not having pike and shot, their next best thing). Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:13:19 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Kerendans should use heavy crossbows, as do dwarves, of course. And I > would use the revised damage for crossbows: > Actually probably the Hattians should use heavy crossbows. Kerendans should use short or composite bows, because they're easier to use on horseback. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:18:12 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >While you are more than able to but anyone you want in your campaign in the GSoM, what do folks think in general about the difficulty of getting in? I didn't think that every mage in Glantri went there, that there were still quite a few who got trained at home, "hedge style" or in the respective "State Universities" of their home Principality. Also, what are the barriers to foriegners getting in? And if admitted, would an outsider stand a chance of being admitted into a secret society? I have attempted to make every magical centre in Mystara have something special. I've doled out unique spells to all the major ones, and some other nifty tack ons, Circle style, as well. (Cheers to Bruce for those Herath spells!). As Mystara is a world about war and nations, I assume that magic is a national resource, like, say, nuclear weapons. Glantrians arent going to train anyone. I assume that foreigners or those who are "politically unreliable" may be admitted to the GSoM, but will not be admitted to a circle. Glantri is not going to dole out Dracology to say, Karameikos, no way on Ordanas green planet. Any more than the USA is going to give someone else nukes. Esoteric magic IMC is pretty tightly controlled. Im a big fan of the geas spells in this area as well. Bit like the Freemasons I suppose - once your in, thats it. But I would definitely not allow this stuff in general to spread. No way. If you want a Glantrian circle, you move house to Glantri, grovel to the government, do some great service, and when you get admitted, you toe the line and accept the geas spell with a smile. Theres another reason I do this too, aside from the political one. I like every nation to be unique, and after playing Spelljammer for many years and the mishmash (wizards picking the most powerful spells from Greyhawk/FRealms/Dragonlance, joining planar factols as well, whatever) is just sad. It totally lacks character, and if it was that easy, there would be no Glantrian magic or perhaps not even Mystaran magic, it would all be one bland single entity. I personally assume that a wizard can only cast core spells (ie, Players handbook, ToM, and the rest) and not campaign specific stuff (Glantrian spells, Planescape spells, whatever). If you want to do this, your looking at a five year apprenticeship to see how their magic works. The Ancient Mighty Empire of Alphatia is the product of 4000+ years of magical excellence, and having some PC just wander in, collect the choice nifties and wander out again - one word, No. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:07:37 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Good spell! It gives great power at a price. I found it well balanced. It would be interesting the event of a ruling noble of Glantri using this spell - would the council replace the ruler when he is out of touch >for a so long time? I think so. Ettiene was awaty for a while and he got replaced... >However, I suppose only Morphail and Sophora know this spell, and the Boldavian Prince has no need for it. Why? I said it could be researched a s an alternative 5th circle, but I = didn't say it has to be the spell of the high master. The more common = use of this spell would be a "regular" 9th level spell. And although a = lot of my worlk is written with Glantri in mind, this is not the case = here. >BTW, the duration of this kind of hibernation is based on physical or actual age? (If the latter was true, Sophora would hibernate for centuries if she used his spell!) Physical.. for the reasoin you just gave. -- Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:26:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thoughts about the population density stuff- OK, sp figures in most KW countries are lower than the RW equivelents. I = can see how that works if we throw in another faction that is missing = from RW countries- Humanoids/monsters. While a sq mile (or kilometer or whatever) in europe could suppprt X = amount of humans, that same sq mile in the KW has to support Orcs and = Goblins and Frost Giants. The population numbers of these creatures in = the Almanacs are not included in the national total. In other words, = there are a lot more human-like people living in the given area than the = official numbers show.=20 The high population density in the shires can be therefor attributed to = lack of humanoids. Border areas in Rockhome do contaign lots of = humanoids, but as someone has already mentioned, the surface area of = Rockhome is much larger than in the Almanac because of the many caves in = which dwarves live. I do however don't understand how dense forest could house so many = elves. This is because we know the Canolbarth also supported herds of = Centaurs and other creatures that live off the land. We also know that = the elves do not herd animals or have heavy agriculture. So the only = option is that the elves live very in a very urban surrounding, on the = "sky scraping trees". Just think of the poor animals that live in the = forest.. they are hunted by thousends of hungry elves centaurs and = similar creatures all the time... Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:15:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Well this spell could explain why some Glantrian have been alive for hundreds of years (besides the elves, the vampires and those under = Immortal influence, of course). But still, I can't imagine the more vain age-conscious Glantrians to dare put on all that necromantic gunk on = them! >Yuck! That is why they often resort to other means of rejuvenation. I think I = want to know more about the Alphatian conterpart, that calls for the = consumption of a wolf's heart in the full moon. >Maybe in Glantri, it's known by some other name, like "Rejuvenation of = the Butterfly" or "Silken Bed of Eternal Youth" for an Ethengaran flavor, or "Rosebud of Restored Beauty" alluding to the beautiful Immortal Valerias >(You did mention Lhommar, right?) Those are great names, Kit. I think I would add them to the spell's = description. >"Non, non, There's no such spell, I tell you! That is just some = romantic tale by some silly Traladaran girl! Or worse, some plot by those = vampires to create more ugly creatures like them!" --Dame Diane de Moriamis, herself an expert in beauty and youth--or the = lack >of it--about the Cocoon spell. (While running to the closest liberary to start her research) Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:32:04 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > OK, sp figures in most KW countries are lower than the RW equivelents. > I can see how that works if we throw in another faction that is missing from > RW countries- Humanoids/monsters. > Right, I wasn't trying to say that it was a *bad* thing that the population densities were lower - in fact I pointed out it was a good thing, adventure-wise, because we need those big wilderness areas for (as you said) 'noids/monsters, ruins to explore, etc. Btw, the Shires is way too pacific and happy-go-lucky. It's about time for their next major 'noid invasion, I think. Reduce the population to lower densities like other areas, and put more monsters in them thar hills. But, *shrug* on the other hand perhaps people prefer the idylic Shires the way they are, as a contrast to some of the other lands. Who knows. Just my opinion. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:42:35 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have attempted to make every magical centre in Mystara have something > special. I've doled out unique spells to all the major ones, and some other > nifty tack ons, Circle style, as well. (Cheers to Bruce for those Herath > spells!). > Thing is, most areas don't really have that, and with the exceptions you mentioned (yourself and Bruce re. Herath), probably 80% - 90% of the spells that are posted on either the MML or MMB are intended as Glantrian, Alphatian, or both (I guess the other countries just aren't very magically inovative). I myself just completely and absolutely suck at coming up with actual spells of any sort. I have some vague notions of some things that might be "Thyatian-specific" type magics, but even those are largely cribbed from other game systems (most noitably Shadowrun; ritual magic), and I haven't actually developed anything. But the folks who *are* good at comming up with new spells (Cocoon *is* very nice, btw, very creative) - like I said, they design 80% to 90% (possibly even more!) with Glantri or Alphatia in mind. Thus folks almost *have* to go to those nations to aquire their magic. Sure, I can see why the inclination is to develop Glantri or Alphatia's magic - they are the "most magical" countries. But what is a matter of degree has in effect become a matter of kind - it is almost as if they are the only magical countries, and the others are magic poor at best, and completely deficient at worst (thus it is, for example, often portrayed as if in a war between Thyatis and Alphatia, only Alphatia would really have significant battlefield magic). Even the Gazeteers are not this extreme: Minrothad has its magic, the Shadow Elves have theirs, Alfheimers have their own magic, etc. Some people have done a little bit with some of each of them, but again that might make up 10-20% of the spells that are posted on the MML or MMB. How 'bout this: this morning I posted a request that the guys & gals who like Darokin post some of the details they must have developed about their favorite nation. Perhaps they could post some Daro spells. I truely wish I was better at detailing really new spells and coming up with good ideas of my own, then I'd do it myself. Instead I'm reduced to posting a plea that others will post some spells, magical crafts (akin to but not identical to Glantri's "Secret Crafts") and the like for nations other than just the obvious ones. Otherwise - well, otherwise Rob you're just unfortunately wrong; not every nation has its own magical secrets and unique magical knacks. I can't do it myself so I have to beg others to. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:36:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jens Arvid Larsen Schnabel Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:18:12 Rob wrote: (...and there was much snippage) >As Mystara is a world about war and nations, I assume that magic is a >national resource, like, say, nuclear weapons. Glantrians arent going to >train anyone. I assume that foreigners or those who are "politically >unreliable" may be admitted to the GSoM, but will not be admitted to a >circle. Glantri is not going to dole out Dracology to say, Karameikos, no >way on Ordanas green planet. Any more than the USA is going to give someone >else nukes. Esoteric magic IMC is pretty tightly controlled. > (snip yet again) > >I personally assume that a wizard can only cast core spells (ie, Players >handbook, ToM, and the rest) and not campaign specific stuff (Glantrian >spells, Planescape spells, whatever). If you want to do this, your looking >at a five year apprenticeship to see how their magic works. The Ancient >Mighty Empire of Alphatia is the product of 4000+ years of magical >excellence, and having some PC just wander in, collect the choice nifties >and wander out again - one word, No. Yes, I agree. It makes a lot of sense that various spells would be considered quite dangerous by opposed nations. I can just hear it: "You know, they say that Ylaruam has the Sleep-Curse spell [from the player's part of DotE] now". I've also had plans for adventures based on mages from Alphatia and Glantri who perform espionage on each other's research of new and dangerous spell, but, alas, I have yet to develop the idea, and besides, there are no Glantrian or Alphatian PCs IMC at the moment. Good points, Rob (well, I think they were anyway)! This is just the right way for magic to work in a magic-rich world like Mystara. - Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:39:45 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Tales from the Front - the Eve of the War MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And with that, the old legionary gets to his feet, and shuffles out of the pub onto the darkened streets of Biazzan, leaving the small crowd of interested youths who had gathered behind him. But Diogenes Akritios will return! --I hope so. I'll buy the old guy a pint. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:06:22 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These are some new Darokinian Merchant spells, mainly types for less... scrupulous merchants. Level One Misvalue Range: 10' Duration: one day Uses: once per day This spell allows the merchant to make goods appear to be far more valuable than they actually are. The items will appear to be of better quality, superior materials, and imitations will look like "the real thing". Obstruct Road Range: Special Duration: Special Uses: Once per day This spell allows the merchant to set objects across a road in such a way as to look natural. The objects will require most of a day's work to remove enough to allow wagons to pass through the road. Note that suitable large objects are not created by this spell, and must be found. Additionally, if the terrain allows, affected wagons might simply go around the obstruction, and so this spell is best used in mountanius or hevily forested areas. Suspicions Range: Touch Duration: 1 turn This is a "reversed" version of Trust. For the duration of this spell, the target will be unable to convince anyone of his or her trustworthiness. Those already inclined to mistrust the target will refuse to acept anything the target tries to convince them of, believing all evidence to have been manufactured. Undetectable Lie Range: 0' Duration: special Uses: once per day This spell allows the merchant to tell a single believable lie without fear of the lie being discovered. People will not recognize evidence to the contrary, and will not make the connections necessary to disprove the statement. For instance, the merchant could say that his caravan's last stop was in Sayr Ulan, and the gate guards will believe him, even if his papers state he was in Darokin City... if this spell is used first. This spell would not make the guards forget the papers if they had already inspected them, nor would they believe the statement "I am a dwarf." from a human merchant. Second Level Sabatoge Load Range: touch Duration: special Uses: once per day This spell allows a mechant to arrange a wagon load such that the load fill shift during travel, possibly damaging the cargo. That's it for now, maybe I'll do more later. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:53:08 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > >However, I suppose only Morphail and Sophora know this spell, and the > Boldavian Prince has no need for it. > > Giampaolo Agosta > > I disagree. I think Morphail has heard of it (What is he High Master of > Necromancy for?) but being a vampire, he doesn't need it. > That's exactly what I was saying :) > As for Genevieve de Sephora, MoA makes it clear that Genevieve methodically > ages, "dies", takes longevity potions, comes back as her own granddaughter > and inherits her "recently deceased" grandmother's legacy. > Being the High Mistress of Alchemy, Genevieve should know the spell, even if she doesn't use it herself. > Dame Diane de Moriamis, I've explained is magically preserved in a perpetual > state of fat old matron (If not, she would have done something about her > baldness already!) by a freak lab accident. > > And even the time-travelling Moriamis ages with her chosen > husband-of-the-century, letting him die, then revitalizes herself. > With Malachie, she is probably going to wait more ;) > Perhaps other long-lived Glantrian nobles, but not these I've mentioned. > However, since the spell is said to be researchable as a 5th circle necromancy or alchemy power, and Morphail has been High Master for a very long time, all existing copies of the spell should come from the libraries of the previous High Masters of Alchemy. That's why I would say only few wizards know this spell. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:14:38 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Gender Biases in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly wrote: > > I'm not familiar with how the Krondaharans practice inheritance law, but it > might very well have nothing to do with a person's spellcasting ability. I > would argue that primogenitur (Assuming this was the basis of the > inheritance) is not in itself "gender bias". > Standard glantrian laws for inheritance are based on spellcasting ability, at least for noble titles. Many glantrian Princes have elder brothers/sisters. Gaz3 explicitly says that Lan-Syn is the only legal heir among Jherek's wives (because she's the only spellcaster). Since she is a legal heir, and she is both elder and better spellcaster then either Ralindi or Rejladan, she should be next Princess. Of course, the basis of inheritance were in the end the political alliances, but the Council of the Princes would not have considered Ralindi and Rejladan's claims if there weren't any support in Krondahar for them. Finally, I don't know whether Krondaharans' gender bias is canon or not, since I don't have access to G:KoM, and Gaz3 doesn't give many details on this, but the only net-source I have on Krondahar (Jenn's mini-gaz on Krondahar and Bramyra) pictures Jherek and his Krondaharans as very, very prejudiced. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:15:26 -0800 Reply-To: Jenni Merrifield Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells In-Reply-To: <20000120.140630.-73291.0.anowack@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Aaron E Nowack wrote: > These are some new Darokinian Merchant spells, mainly types for less... > scrupulous merchants. > [...snip...] Ooo. I like these. Fit right in with others like "Embezzle". Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- PS: Hurrah, three cheers for James! Look what his (not so) innocent question has started! ;-) Anyone else have any Darokin based stuff to share? People? Places? Merchant Based Magical Items? More info about the Darokin Light Army? How about the Diplomatic Corps? Anyone? Anyone? Beuler...? ;-) ==JAMM -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield | Designing to Requirements -=> strawberryJAMM <=- | And Walking on Water strawberry@jamm.com | Are Easy if Both http://www.jamm.com/jenni/ | Are Frozen ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:42:29 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > These are some new Darokinian Merchant spells, mainly types for less... > scrupulous merchants. > > Hooray! They're pretty cool 8-). Can't wait till the next batch. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:54:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: > > Anyone else have any Darokin based stuff to > share? People? Places? Merchant Based Magical > Items? More info about the Darokin Light Army? How > about the Diplomatic Corps? Anyone? Anyone? > Beuler...? ;-) Well, my previously posted Corliss Guide to Northern Karameikos has its origins in Darokin: Brendan Corliss, the "author" of said publication hails from Darokin City. I have a decent amount of detail on him but it is scattered and unorganized. Theoretically, his guides to Eastern-, Western, and Central- Darokin preceded the one for Northern Karameikos. Of course, I haven't actually written them up yet (as I needed the one for Northern Karameikos ASAP). Hopefully, I'll soon be able to post some additional detail on Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. as well as more of the Corliss Guides. However, with MystaranCon NW coming up, the Mystara Photo Atlas looming over my head, and my actual Mystara campaign *finally* getting started, I'm not sure how "soon" any of it will surface. I guess I could post an "interview" with Brendan Corliss if anyone is interested. It will at least give info on his background... auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:00:09 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I guess I could post an "interview" with Brendan > Corliss if anyone is interested. It will at least give > info on his background... > Thats always fun, go for it. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:09:19 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > > I guess I could post an "interview" with Brendan > > Corliss if anyone is interested. It will at least > give > > info on his background... > > > Thats always fun, go for it. 8-) Alrighty then. Please be patient though, folks. I'm currently at work and I don't think I have that disk w/me. I'll do some touch-up editing on it when I get home and post it tonight. Stand by for news... -Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:50:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last post on the Stefan Karameikos subject clearly showed how different perspectives people from different countries may have on the same subject. But, even if I dislike the man as untrustworthy and I still think he is a traitor, (very) probably he has done more good things to Karameikos than bad ones. And this, I suppose, is enough to be loved by his subjects. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:51:40 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (very) probably he has done more good things to Karameikos than bad > ones. And this, I suppose, is enough to be loved by his subjects. > Well, all I'm going to say is that the Traladarans were fairly contented under Thyatian rule, since the Thyatians mostly left them to do as they liked under their own traditions, but when Stefan arrived one of the first things he had to do was crush the revolt against him; then he displaced most the Traladarans and expropriated their lands, handing them out to his cronies. After that I guess the Traldarans found it in their best interest (=not being killed) to get along and go along, and express love and affection for their new ruler. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:02:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Iulius Sergius Scaevola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello. Searching for Thyatian correspondents to create a sort of Thyatian Characters Reference Site on the web. Already got an address. E-mail me personally if interested. This is an example...myself!! IULIUS SERGIUS SCAEVOLA Iulius Sergius was born in Port Lucinius the 17th of Flaurmont 980, first son of the senator Publius Sergius. His family is one of the oldest of the Thyatian aristocracy. The young boy is raised in the family militar tradition,but at the age of 16, he is asked to join the Army instead of the Navy, to allow his younger brother to do so; this because his brother Phileus is the clear favourite of the family. Iulius Sergius, who had never shared his family's fondness of the sea, agrees without problems. In the following years, after a 2 years training period, he is sent to the Hinterlands, where he is employed as an Elite Unit Soldier. Several years of campaign first, and of helping the first colonists later, give him the rank of Centurion (Sergeant Instructor) when he finally comes back in 1003, when he is assigned to theXXth Cohort, located in his hometown. When the war with Alphatia starts, Iulius is sent with the cohort to Redstone, where he valiantly fights for two years, until, in the summer of 1007, he is one of the officers that surrenders and is captured by the invaders. A few months of hardship as a prisoner end when he is freed by a small group of guerrilla fighters of the Isle of Dawn. With his new companions, Iulius leaves for Furmenglaive... And part 2 will come if anybody is interested! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:05:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland ha scritto: > > (very) probably he has done more good things to Karameikos than bad > > ones. And this, I suppose, is enough to be loved by his subjects. > > > Well, all I'm going to say is that the Traladarans were fairly contented > under Thyatian rule, since the Thyatians mostly left them to do as they > liked under their own traditions, but when Stefan arrived one of the first > things he had to do was crush the revolt against him; then he displaced > most the Traladarans and expropriated their lands, handing them out to his > cronies. After that I guess the Traldarans found it in their best interest > (=not being killed) to get along and go along, and express love and > affection for their new ruler. Well, I said that too, but I think you missed a part of the discussion. In the end maybe the Karameikans are right. Although in the beginning he was not a great ruler, he learned (also in his own interest) to be at least a wise one. Especially relevant, I think, is the fact Jeremy Morris pointed out: now they are an indipendent and unified kingdom. It's not a small thing, if you consider they have waited 1000 (IIRC) years to be that! And many of the old guys who witnessed his first errors are not there to remember it. That said, I continue not to like him. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:04:31 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Iulius Sergius Scaevola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > And part 2 will come if anybody is interested! > Sure, post away! Folks shouldn't need permission - most character type stuff is warmly welcomed by all! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:30 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, I said that too, but I think you missed a part of the discussion. In the > Ok, sorry - I do remember reading that. Not that it can be said too often. > > end maybe the Karameikans are right. Although in the beginning he was > not a great ruler, he learned (also in his own interest) to be at least a wise > one. > He did? When? Musta been when I wasn't lookin, 'cause last I checked the Hin had to step in and solve the major problem for him. A wise ruler? Or a fortunate one? I think Mac said that it's better to be lucky than good*, and boy was he right! Thincol was a wiser ruler (except for that Anya thing, though he cut his losses), but look what happened to him? He ended up with a ruined Empire (twice). While Stefan hasn't had any real accomplishments he can really call his own, he has been very fortunate and reaped a lot of windfalls. It does take luck to make one great, I suppose. Anyhow I appologize for repeating what you already said. *"Good" in this sense meaning skilled or of a quality of excellence, not "good" as in the sense of an all around fine fellow who does what is right. Stefan tries to do that, when he's able to separate good from evil and recognize the latter - which really makes it hard to be a wise ruler if you cannot recognize wickedness where it exists; makes it really hard to be just. But I digress. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:15:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Caroletti wrote: > > The last post on the Stefan Karameikos subject > clearly showed how different > perspectives people from different countries may > have on the same subject. > But, even if I dislike the man as untrustworthy and > I still think he is a traitor, > (very) probably he has done more good things to > Karameikos than bad ones. > And this, I suppose, is enough to be loved by his > subjects. See, James? Here's an example of the "black" and "white" issue. I can see why the Thyatians would think Stefan was a traitor and Karameikans would think he's a hero. I think the specific "good guys" and "bad guys" is more a function of later products as opposed to the Gazzeteers. I think someone brought it up on the MMB as well (maybe Patrick?). In one Gaz one nation is portrayed as the bad guy(i.e. The Shadow Elves in Gaz5), while in another you get to see their side of the story (Gaz13). Personally, I can't recall any nation that had a Gaz done on it that never got pros and cons in its own or another Gazzeteer. Of course, I can see where James is coming from to a certain degree, but I think that its more of an issue that we need to watch out for as we continue to put out our OWN stuff for Mystara. IMO, the original Mystara material pointed us in the right direction... now we just need to follow it. Counterpoint anyone? James? ;p -Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:19:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Iulius Sergius Scaevola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:02:02 Caroletti wrote: >Iulius Sergius was born in Port Lucinius the 17th of Flaurmont 980, >first son >of the senator Publius Sergius. His family is one of the oldest of the >Thyatian >aristocracy. >The young boy is raised in the family militar tradition,but at the age >of 16, >he is asked to join the Army instead of the Navy, to allow his younger >brother >to do so; this because his brother Phileus is the clear favourite of the >family. >Iulius Sergius, who had never shared his family's fondness of the sea, >agrees >without problems. >In the following years, after a 2 years training period, he is sent to >the Hinterlands, where he is employed as an Elite Unit Soldier. Several >years of >campaign first, and of helping the first colonists later, give him the >rank of >Centurion (Sergeant Instructor) when he finally comes back in 1003, when >he >is assigned to theXXth Cohort, located in his hometown. - Okay 'Stalker', my young apprentice! The Thyatian enemy just gave us his entire history. It should now be an easy task for you to use THAT spell on him, since you have all the required information - so get to it! - Yes, Master Terari! ;) >When the war with Alphatia starts, Iulius is sent with the cohort to >Redstone, >where he valiantly fights for two years, until, in the summer of 1007, >he is one >of the officers that surrenders and is captured by the invaders. Ah yes - I thought I had heard of you before. Our illustrious capture of Redstone - I remember it well :) >A few months >of hardship as a prisoner end when he is freed by a small group of >guerrilla fighters >of the Isle of Dawn. >With his new companions, Iulius leaves for Furmenglaive... > >And part 2 will come if anybody is interested! > Oh yes please - I really would like all the names of the treacherous misfits of troll droppings who allowed you to escape if you don't mind :) Actually, I love building up lists of NPCs - I already have quite a database of such folk, but I can never get enough (especially if they are *not* of the 'all-powerful and invincible' type). - The Stalker of Alphatia (well, who did you expect) :) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:47:55 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > See, James? Here's an example of the "black" and > "white" issue. I can see why the Thyatians would think > Stefan was a traitor and Karameikans would think he's > a hero. > Except that with just about one lone exception (the event in WotI where "Karameikos Sells out") I can't think of any description that portrays Stefan in other than glowing terms in any of the published materiels. I'd be happy to be corrected if you have counterexamples. Sure, the Thyatians won't like Stefan. But "everyone knows" what we're supposed to think of their opinion (see PWAs for how Thyatians should be treated) - in fact, Stefan is one of the great examples of how things are "black" vs "white" and his association with the Alphatians is also emblematic of their shift over to the "light side of the force." Don't try and tell me Dupuis, for example, held a balanced view of the Empires. . . . > as well (maybe Patrick?). In one Gaz one nation is > portrayed as the bad guy(i.e. The Shadow Elves in > Gaz5), while in another you get to see their side of > the story (Gaz13). Personally, I can't recall any > nation that had a Gaz done on it that never got pros > and cons in its own or another Gazzeteer. > That's the one good example. Another might be the Ethengar vs Glantri Gaz's - they are each other's foils and get countertreatment similar to Gaz 5 vs Gaz 13. I can't think of any other examples. Can you? > Of course, I can see where James is coming from to a > certain degree, but I think that its more of an issue > that we need to watch out for as we continue to put > out our OWN stuff for Mystara. IMO, the original > Mystara material pointed us in the right direction... > now we just need to follow it. > In part, in some instances, they set the right tone. However, they often quickly abandoned it. DotE gives an (almost) evenhanded portrayal of two nations with flaws and virtues - but if folks think that this portrayal was retained in later products, they have yet to really provide any evidence of that. I think the original Mystara materiel started in the right direction, things foundered a bit in the PWAs & JA, and fortunately or unfortnately depending on the type of Mystara each person prefers, people have followed that latter example more faithfully than the original ones. And even (Jens being one but not the only) prefer it this way when given a choice between the "two Mystaras". > > Counterpoint anyone? James? ;p > O course, being the long-winded buddinski that I am, I'm only too happy to oblige 8-). > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:55:15 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Darokin Stuff: Corran House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since my new Darokinian merchant spells went over so well, I'll start getting together all the stuff I have on Darokin. This is a write up on Corran House cerca 1007 AC. (Corran House is the trading house of Jeddarin Corran from the first WotI adventure.) Note that this contradicts the two-line history and description of Jeddarin Corran. Deal with it. That's what you get when you ask for stuff from people's campaign's. :) A brief history of Corran House: Corran House was originaly a noble family of the Kingdom of Darokin. The family was founded in 821 AC. It was a family of the then Duchy of Darokin, which controled the two Amorsak cities. The head of the family, Alexander Corran, was granted a small plot of land north of Fort Lakeside, where he built Corran Keep. However, he and the immediate family were slain in a bandit raid, and the noble title was forgotten over the remaining centuries. The family survived through various means until 965, when Ansel Corran started a small trading route between Darokin City and the Borderlands. The trading operation was only moderatly sucessful until Ansel managed to get an exclusive contract with Al-Azrad House to ship goods from Selencia to the Lake Amorasak region. The family's fortunes took off, and when Ansel's son Jeddarin took over in 992 AC, the family was the major naval shipper on Lake Amorsak. Jeddarin then started occasional caravans to Sind and Glantri, and by 1000 AC Corran House was one of the minor houses to watch, with some expecting it to become a major huse in the next few decades. In 1004 AC, agents of Corran House cleaned out the old Corran Keep, and the Jeddarin was appointed magistrate of the area. When the Master invaded, forces from this area, led by Jeddarin, were vital in slowing the Master's advance toward Akorros. This unit also saw battle at the Siege of Darokin City, the Battle of Bronsdale, and the campaign to retake Akesoli and Akkoros, and recieved commendations for its role in each. The unit was also involved in the failed counter-invasion into Sind, though Jeddarin was not present during the fighting. More recently, Jeddarin lead forces at Favarro to stop the orcish advance south, though victory was only achieved through Shadow Elf intervention. Fortunatly, when the meteor hit Corran Keep, it was basically unihabited, and little was lost. Corran House Assets Corran House maintains a fleet of five trading ships on Lake Amorsak. It still maintains the title to Corran Keep, and Jeddarin is looking for adventurers to investigate the area. Corran House also maintains five caravans,all of which are now on domestic duty, as travel to Sind and Glantri is likely to be less than sucessful. Corran House maintains offices in Akesoli, Akkoras, Darokin City, and Selencia. Corran House Personalities Jeddarin Corran (9th/10th level human fighter/merchant, LG) Born in 971 AC, Jeddarin Corran is the head of the succesful Corran House. He is of average height with black hair, blue eyes, and a lean build. He is very intellegent and a shrewd judge of character. He has one son, Noriad Corran, who was born 990 AC. His wife, Elena Corran, died in childbirth. He is a Captain in the Darokinian Army, in charge of the currently demobilized XXXVI Legion (founded during the war with the Master, it is part of the Sixth Army: "The Ragtag Irregulars"). His greatest friends are Sylnox Chossum and Tagorn Tromhelm, long-time adventuring companions. He has recently returned from a special mission into Hule. Noriad Corran (0/3rd level normal human/merchant, NG) Noriad is a young man with black hair and brown eyes. He is Jeddarin's son. He often runs the family's operations when his father is away with the army or adventuring. HE is in love with Norelia Erendyl (see below) and it is expected that they might marry soon. Sylnox Chossum (9th/11th level elven mage/thief, CG) Sylnox is just over a hundred years old. His parents are from Alfheim, but they moved to Darokin a few decades after his birth. He is second-in-command of the XXXVI Legion, and is an old friend of Jeddarin's. Though Jeddarin does not agree with Sylnox's thiefly practices, the two get along well. Six months ago, Sylnox ran afell of a magical item which reversed his gender. He only recently was able had the effect reversed, with the help of the powerful mage Rheddrian. Tagorn Tromhelm (9th/5th level human ranger/werewolf, CG) Tagorn is a tall man with red hair and a beard. He is of partial elvish ancestery. He is a old adventuring companion of Sylnox and Jeddarin. He is a very violent person wit ha short temper. He is third in command of the XXXVI Legion. He contracted lycanthropy early in his adventuring career, but did not reveal this until the Siege of Darokin, when he shifted forms to help fight of the Master's minotaur allies on the steps of the Merchant's Guild Hall. Tiberius Hyperion (10th level human priest of Vanya, LN) A Thyatian immigrant, Tiberius is a tall, thin man. He met Jeddarin, Sylnox, and Tagorn when he was appointed chaplain for the XXXVI Legion. When that unit was demobilized, he signed up with Corran House. He left Thyatis due to political problems after he burnt down several Storm Soldier bases in Hattias. Norelia Erendyl (4th/3rd level elven fighter/mage, NG) Norelia is a beautiful elven women who has worked with Corran House for some time. She is in charge of the screening all job applicants, and is expected to marry Noriad Corran. Falstair Chossum (8th/7th level elven fighter/mage, LG) Falstair, one of Sylnox's childhood friends and a member of the Alfheim Home Guard, was a common sight at House Corran's Darokin City office while the elven exodus was in Darokin. After the Shadow Elves captured most of the remaing Alfheim Home Guard units and the exodus split, he left with the group heading north to Wendar. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:03:18 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Yes, I agree. It makes a lot of sense that various spells would be considered quite dangerous by opposed nations. I can just hear it: "You know, they say that Ylaruam has the Sleep-Curse spell [from the player's part of DotE] now". > >I've also had plans for adventures based on mages from Alphatia and Glantri who perform espionage on each other's research of new and dangerous spell, but, alas, I have yet to develop the idea, and besides, there are no Glantrian or Alphatian PCs IMC at the moment. Mmm. One of my players happens to be a Glantrian noble and friend of Prince Jaggar, he did some espionage to try and get a skynavy built in Glantri. So he went over to Alphatia and tried to get some information on the spells out of Champions of Mystara (which, IMC, are mostly Alphatian restricted spells). He couldn't learn how to make a suitable magical material with clothform and woodform and so on (he couldnt learn the spells) but he could make do with major/minor creation and permanency, after he worked out the general principles. Using those spells his Glantrian skyships are roughly four times less efficient than the Alphatian ones. ie, inferior. But then, to me that makes a certain sense. (PS, I only have G:KoM, so my knowledge of Blackhill is basically zero. I have no idea whether they have skyship knowledge, so I have just said they dont to further the fun and games :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:07:57 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Darokin Stuff: Corran House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Note that this contradicts the two-line history and description of > Jeddarin Corran. Deal with it. That's what you get when you ask for > stuff from people's campaign's. :) > As someone who's known for rebuilding Thyatis from the ground up (or starting to, anyhow), that doesn't bother me. Looked pretty cool. I especially liked all the details on the family members. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:17:34 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:42:29 -0600 James Ruhland writes: > > > > These are some new Darokinian Merchant spells, mainly types for > less... > > scrupulous merchants. > > > > > Hooray! > They're pretty cool 8-). > Can't wait till the next batch. You asked for it... I'll be deluging this list with the Darokin stuff I have as soon as I can type it up and flesh it out and remove major canon inconsitancies. Maybe I'll even try and actually write down my masterpiece Siege of Darokin City adventure... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:19:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:15:26 -0800 "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" writes: > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Aaron E Nowack wrote: > > These are some new Darokinian Merchant spells, mainly types for > less... > > scrupulous merchants. > > [...snip...] > > Ooo. I like these. Fit right in with others like "Embezzle". Thank you. I'll be trying to come up with more. > PS: Hurrah, three cheers for James! Look what his (not so) innocent > question has started! ;-) Anyone else have any Darokin based stuff > to > share? People? Places? Merchant Based Magical Items? More info > about > the Darokin Light Army? How about the Diplomatic Corps? Anyone? > Anyone? > Beuler...? ;-) I've got some more stuff... It looks like revising the AC 1010 Undersea Timeline gets delayed again. :) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:25:33 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Thing is, most areas don't really have that, and with the exceptions you > >mentioned (yourself and Bruce re. Herath), probably 80% - 90% of the spells > >that are posted on either the MML or MMB are intended as Glantrian, > >Alphatian, or both (I guess the other countries just aren't very magically > >inovative). > > Not true. Darokin has its merchant magic (ok, not mages, but they have > something), > the Northern Reaches has rune magic, I've got a sort of tarot card type > thing for Karameikos, > war magic for Thyatis (already mentioned some earlier), elf spells for > Alfheim and Wendar, some spells > for the Flaemish (which I have given to the Fire Island people as well...). > I think you misunderstood my point: 80-90% of the spells that are posted on the MML or MMB are intended for Glantri or Alphatia (that line at the end about other nations not being magically inovative was a un-subtle bit of semi-satire; sorry if it implied there wasn't stuff in the *Gazeteers* about there specific magical skills of other nations than the two, my point was hardly any one posts anything on it. . .now hopefully that will change. Special thanks again to Andrew for his Daro spells post). > > Unless you seriously expect the Best, like an Alphatian Air Wizard, not to > have anything on the worst - a human hedge wizard who had the misfortune to > grow in the Shires. > There's "best" or "better" and then theirs "all" vs "nothing". For example, both the Player's Guide to Alphatia and the Player's Guide to Thyatis mention the Alphatians teaching their magic to the Thyatians - the Alphatians say the Thyatians then "corrupted" it, the Thyatians then claim they "improved upon it" - so what does that mean? Nothing as far as we can see. DotE DM's History of Thyatis (I've been hitting these parts especially heavily lately what with that project I mentioned) says that Thyatis "developed Clerical magic" to a especially high degree. Do we see any evidence of that anywhere? Again, I'd do it myself if I didn't totally blow at that kind of thing. The best I can suggest is Thyatis cribing War Sphere spells from AD&D, because I lack the inovative touch when it comes to spells (think I'm B.S.ing about that? In my long years of gaming, very very close to two decades now, I've made about two "unique" spells, and I have no idea where I put the sheets of paper they were written on - I save almost everything so I imagine I have them stuffed in a box somewhere, but I can't even remember what they were supposed to do anymore). > > Course. Glantri and Alphatia are the powerful Mage Lands. > Which it therefore follows that everyone else should recieve virtually no attention whatsoever? Ok. . .if you insist, I can't stop you. I'm learning that folks will make Mystara into whatever they choose. Perhaps I should do what Solmyr did recently. Anyhow, I don't want to get into a catfight with you or anyone else about this (heck, with you I can and we are conducting the catfight via ICQ). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:29:12 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Magical Correction. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > was hardly any one posts anything on it. . .now hopefully that will change. > Special thanks again to Andrew for his Daro spells post). > Darn it! I meant special thanks to Aaron. Sorry. I hate it when I have a brain hiccup. It happens all too often lately. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:58:57 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Some More Daro Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some more merchant spells I came up with and want to get down before I lose the ideas: Second Level Determine Bribe Range: 10' Duration: Special Uses: 3 times per day This spell allows the merchant to determine the necessary sum to succesfully bribe the target. It will not produce the required amount of gold, however. Third Level Check Contract Range: touch Duration: Special Use: Once per week This spell allows the merchant to check a contract for hidden loopholes. Note that this spell will reveal magically hidden writing. It is customary (and smart) to use this spell before engaging in an Unbreakable Contract (see below). Fourth Level Unbreakable Contract Range: Special Duration: Special Use: Once per week This spell allows the merchant and any number of willing participants to engage in a binding contract. If any participants are under any form of compulsion, the spell will fail. The only way to break the contract short of a wish is to have a mage succesfully cast dispel magic (use the Contract's caster's merchant or magic-user level, whichever is higher, to determine difficulty) with the specific intent to break the contract. All other members of the contract will instantly become aware that the contract has been broken. There is no way to prevent this short of a wish (note that using a wish to break the contract and to prevent this would require two wishes). For the spell to suceed, the contract must be written and signed by all participants. A copy of the contract must be prepared for each participant, as well. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? In-Reply-To: <200001202350.SAB26563@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > See, James? Here's an example of the "black" and > > "white" issue. I can see why the Thyatians would think > > Stefan was a traitor and Karameikans would think he's > > a hero. > > > Except that with just about one lone exception (the event in WotI where > "Karameikos Sells out") I can't think of any description that portrays > Stefan in other than glowing terms in any of the published materiels. I'd > be happy to be corrected if you have counterexamples. Actually, I've always thought that the original GAZ1 portrayed Stefan in a less-than-glowing light. As of AC 1000, thirty years after founding his nation, he hasn't been to visit Halag once? And he won't believe that anything is wrong over there, no matter who tells him? Plus, his wife Olivia with her "vast spy network" didn't know something was up, or didn't tell him? I've always thought the Royal Family came off looking terrible from that one. However, Karameikos is an innocuous nation as far as the other nations of Brun are concerned. Stefan isn't expansionist, since he's got more land than he needs right now. He needs allies, so he won't threaten them. And he seems to be a nice guy, if a bit unwise. So why should any nation pre-WoTI have anything against him? Even post WoTI, only Thyatis and maybe Glantri and Heldann would have any reason to dislike the count. > > as well (maybe Patrick?). In one Gaz one nation is > > portrayed as the bad guy(i.e. The Shadow Elves in > > Gaz5), while in another you get to see their side of > > the story (Gaz13). Personally, I can't recall any > > nation that had a Gaz done on it that never got pros > > and cons in its own or another Gazzeteer. > > > That's the one good example. Another might be the Ethengar vs Glantri Gaz's > - they are each other's foils and get countertreatment similar to Gaz 5 vs > Gaz 13. I can't think of any other examples. Can you? How about GAZ10 - The Broken Lands. The Gazetteer that changed how I look at humanoids. I can't run games where humanoids are just targets anymore, I have to consider them people, and the balanced (if humorous) writing in the Gazetteer is what did it to me. Damn that Bruce Heard ;) > > > Of course, I can see where James is coming from to a > > certain degree, but I think that its more of an issue > > that we need to watch out for as we continue to put > > out our OWN stuff for Mystara. IMO, the original > > Mystara material pointed us in the right direction... > > now we just need to follow it. > > > In part, in some instances, they set the right tone. However, they often > quickly abandoned it. DotE gives an (almost) evenhanded portrayal of two > nations with flaws and virtues - but if folks think that this portrayal was > retained in later products, they have yet to really provide any evidence of > that. > I think the original Mystara materiel started in the right direction, > things foundered a bit in the PWAs & JA, and fortunately or unfortnately > depending on the type of Mystara each person prefers, people have followed > that latter example more faithfully than the original ones. And even (Jens > being one but not the only) prefer it this way when given a choice between > the "two Mystaras". I'll speak up on behalf of the "shades of grey" preference. The reason why I love Mystara more than the Realms or Greyhawk or Dark Sun or even Ravenloft is how "realistic" it is. There aren't really "good nations" or "evil nations." Just nations full of people, some of whom are good, some who are bad, but most are just people. To me, this makes the games more interesting to run as a DM, 'cause my players don't quite know what to expect. > > > > Counterpoint anyone? James? ;p > > > O course, being the long-winded buddinski that I am, I'm only too happy to > oblige 8-). > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:43:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos In-Reply-To: <200001202313.SAA32626@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > end maybe the Karameikans are right. Although in the beginning he was > > not a great ruler, he learned (also in his own interest) to be at least a > wise > > one. > > > He did? When? > Musta been when I wasn't lookin, 'cause last I checked the Hin had to step > in and solve the major problem for him. > A wise ruler? Or a fortunate one? Oh, I would definitely say a fortunate one. Personally, I'd say that Halav must be smiling on him, 'cause some of his early decisions especially were poor ones. However, he's grown to be a good ruler. The Ludwig thing was a real mess, and the man comes across as really incompetent because of that one. Personally (again) I'd say disassociating himself from Thyatis was proably a good thing, but it would have been better if he followed it up with the appointment of a couple of Traladaran barons. He could have really played up the separation to his people that way without doing any more damage than he did. Someday, I'm going to run a campaign where King Stefan dies. I think that Adriana will be a better ruler than her father, since she's seen all of his mistakes and seems to be more perceptive than her father (probably from her mother's side). Of course, the upheaval of King Stefan's death will probably create a lot of "fun" for her agents (like the PCs...) > While Stefan hasn't had any real accomplishments he can > really call his own, he has been very fortunate and reaped a lot of > windfalls. It does take luck to make one great, I suppose. Now this I will disagree with. Stefan has managed to keep a fractious nation together WITHOUT having to place military garrissons in every town to "pacify" the populace. There must be more to the histories than are in the Gazeteers, because if the Traladarans were SO much better off under Thyatian rule, like you stated elsewhere and the history seems to indicate, they'd be plotting with Thyatis to return the country to them rather than leave it in Stefan's hands. IMCs, I've always rationalized this by saying that life was better for the "old families" in charge of the cities, but pretty rough for the average Traladaran. Stefan raised the standarad of living for everyone, and so most of the Traladrans respect him, even if they have problems with the barons he appointed. Otherwise, Stefan would be feeling a lot more resistance IMHO. But, I've probably rambled on too mcuch about this now. Like I said, Karameikos is my favorite nation, so I tend to be a little overly-opinionated about it ;) Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > How about GAZ10 - The Broken Lands. The Gazetteer that changed how I look > at humanoids. I can't run games where humanoids are just targets anymore, > I have to consider them people, and the balanced (if humorous) writing in > the Gazetteer is what did it to me. Damn that Bruce Heard ;) > That's a good one. I like that one too. Unfortunately, like so much that happened, the PWAs went right back to portraying the 'noids in the usual way. Sure, Kol becomes a Prince of Glantri, but he's portrayed kind of shabbiliy as just Syn's dupe, IMO. That's too bad, because in Gaz10 he comes off seeming like a very capable machiavelian himself. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:15:53 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: The Fenswick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is cool, your working on another royal fenswick family (other than the Hillsburies) at the same time that I am. All I need for mine is a family name. in the PBEM game I just used the name 'Windsor' to try to hint to my 'never-before-heard-of-mystara players' that the Fens are based on the English, but I want to change it to something else before I submit the whole family idea to the list (after I play test it first). Although where does this info about the klantyre's oppressing the fens come from, this is news to me..... Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:23:30 +0800 > From: "Francisco V. Navarro" > Subject: Re: The Fenswick > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > From: Jeremy Morris > Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft is a Fenswick? I thought he was related to > > Moorkroft the sorceror from the Sylvan Land (CM7 - Tree of Life). In > > fact, I thought this was referenced in GAZ3 (I'll have to check when I can > > get to it). > > According to our resident Fenwsick consultant in the GPD (Glantrian > Personnel Divison... Hmmm... Sounds kinda officey, I always thought!), Lord > Carl Quaif of the Numerous Spells, "Moorkroft" is a rather Fenswick name, so > I made the connection > > Actually, all this will come out in the GPD file on Lord John, but it has > yet to be completed and posted in the (shameless plug) GPD homepage at: > http://sato.helsinki.fi/~montola.valt/mystara/index.htm > > The Moorkroft are a Fenswick family of rebels, radicals and rabblerousers. > Some, like Robert Moorkroft, Lord John's father, was a legitimate freedom > fighter, fighting against Kaelic oppression of the Fenswick (Of course, the > McGregors viewed him as a troublemaking seditionist!). Some, like Moorkorft > Elvenbane, had less that legitimate crusades, like annahilating elvenkind. > These family ties have made Lord John the enemy of the McGregors and the > Erewan elves. (Of course, the rest of the Lord John's enemies he made > himself.) > > Kit Navarro > Proud member of the GPD > fanavarro@pacific.net.ph > "Moorkroft?! He couldn't be related to... No! I thought his name was > Beaumarys? And he's a baron now? Well, he won't get far up Glantri's > political ladder, I swear it!" > --Prince Brannart McGregor, a mere 30 years before Lord John > Beaumarys-Moorkroft became the Archduke of Westheath > _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:20:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Poll: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I meant to send this message to the list this morning, but James was nice enough to point out that I had sent it only to him (stupid Reply To glitch!) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Poll: Darokin Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:38:08 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com References: <200001201555.KAA26728@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> James Ruhland wrote: > Wow. Watching the "favorite nation" poll I'm rather surprised at how > popular Darokin is. I guess I shouldn't be (it is one of the more > interesting & sprawling nations) - but what strikes me is that there is so > little discussion about it on the list, so little materiel on it at Stan's > site (which is a reflection of how much people have talked about a country > or posted descriptions/details/ideas related to it). > > So consider this a plea and request that some of the folks who like Darokin > post some of the stuff they must have created related to it. Either that or > we always end up going back to the same old topics. Lets have some Daro > stuff! Well ... I wrote an entire Module for Darokin, plus my adaptations to B1 place that module in Darokin as well. So I've done my part, haven't ? ;-) Actually, I'm working on some more modules right now -- and at least one of them will be set in Darokin for sure. Not sure where the others will technically go yet, in one case, it's still under discussion. In the other, I haven't solidified the plot enough yet. Speaking of the module I wrote -- the reason for my earlier request for feedback was that I submitted a synopsis of it to Dragon. I just got a reply from Chris Perkins (the Dragon Editor) He said he liked it, and thought it had some good elements to it, but (unfortunately) in Issue #68 (just under a year ago) they put out a module about an aging Artist who used magical gloves to turn his subjects into statues, which was basically the same plot!!! Wahhh!!! *snif*. If only someone had convinced me to try *earlier*. Ah well -- carry on, I always say! I'm now encouraged, not only to *write* more modules, but to try submitting them to Dragon sooner rather than later. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:35:24 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Moorkroft- The True Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since this came up, we've been tossing around some theories on the relation of John Beaumarys-Moorkroft to Moorkroft Elvenbane from CM7, and I came up with this idea- What if JBM isn't just related to ME- he *is* ME!! At some undisclosed point in the future, JBM crosses Moriamis, who then sends him back in time. At some point in the past, his hatred of elvenkind leads him to the Sylvan Realm, where he decides to make his kingdom (being stuck in the past with no way home). Hundreds of years later, when the Feadiels flee to Alfheim, rumors of an ancient wizard known only as Moorkroft-Elvenbane reach the elves' cousins in Glantri, and a young John Beaumarys-Moorkroft hears them, and decides that evil, legendary wizard must be some distant relative. And they share a hatred of elves, after all... ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:03:26 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Actually, I've always thought that the original GAZ1 portrayed Stefan in a > less-than-glowing light. As of AC 1000, thirty years after founding his > nation, he hasn't been to visit Halag once? And he won't believe that > anything is wrong over there, no matter who tells him? Plus, his wife > Olivia with her "vast spy network" didn't know something was up, or didn't > tell him? I've always thought the Royal Family came off looking terrible > from that one. > I've always thought that this made him look like a blind fool myself, but it was, I think, intended as a convenient excuse to have the "black baron" exist at all, the reason given being (in effect) that Stefan has too delicate a soul to recognize evil in kinfolk. Admitedy, the excuses the writers devised to explain his behavior were so paper thin it would be laughable if it wasn't so distressing, but their intent is clear - Stefan was intended and portrayed as a "hero king" (or Duke) - K:KoA pegs his alignment LG, even if I'd argue that his actual actions were at times chaotic and in some cases close to that other alignment. But that'd just be me, and I'm known for my deviant heresies which most folks don't take seriously. > However, Karameikos is an innocuous nation as far as the other nations of > Brun are concerned. Stefan isn't expansionist, since he's got more land > than he needs right now. He needs allies, so he won't threaten them. > Really? He almost seems to have used some sort of dark sorcery to have his nation benifit at the expense of other nations - Alfheim gets slagged so he can get more Elves, all sorts Alphatian refugees settle in Karameikos, building up its magical power (resulting in a school of magic that opens its doors one month, has its students casting spells the next month, and is competing seriously - or so we're expected to believe - in a rivalry with Glantri's GSoM before the end of the year. And here I've been told magecraft was an arcane art that took years of study to master. Silly me for believing such lies!) His homeland goes down the tubes, etc. If I were other nations I'd see him as a greater threat than the Master of Hule (ok, that part was tounge in cheek). > he seems to be a nice guy, if a bit unwise. So why should any nation > pre-WoTI have anything against him? Even post WoTI, only Thyatis and > maybe Glantri and Heldann would have any reason to dislike the count. > Well, thats one of my problems, not with Stefan or Karameikos but with the KW in general - it's one big fat happy-go-lucky family, more Barneyesque than Panglossia to the east - every nation in the KW except for the boogiemen (Thyatis, HKland) sings "I love you, you love me, we're a happy family" at every meeting of the WDL. Far from disproving my assertion that the KW is divided into "black and white" nations, this tends instead to confirm it - the kindly nations have a club (the WDL) where they get together as part of a mutual admiration society. > > I'll speak up on behalf of the "shades of grey" preference. The reason > why I love Mystara more than the Realms or Greyhawk or Dark Sun or even > Ravenloft is how "realistic" it is. There aren't really "good nations" or > "evil nations." Just nations full of people, some of whom are good, some > who are bad, but most are just people. > Except most of those who are good come from predictable places or backrounds (the "bad" clans of Rockhome, for instance), most of those who are bad likewise, and most of the nations are portrayed based upon that. Thus I reassert that if Mystara is "shades of grey" it's only because when you mix the sharply-contrasted black vs white nations and people, grey is the color you end up with. But grey is not the portrayal in specific instances, and the general is composed of the agrigation of each specific instance. Therefore Mystara is not "shades of grey," though I would agree with you that I would prefer that to be the case, not since PWA II, if not before, has it been such. And people's impressions & their continuity of development is based upon, for good or ill, that stuff that came later, or so it seems (see just about every specific-instance post or website). The problem is Mystara may not have been like that originally, or intended to be like that, but heck - not even the FR is what it has become over time. We have to face up to what Mystara was becoming in the hands of who wrote for it (and not just TSR writers, us too), and what it continues to become in our hands. Overall, is it what we want? The aggrigation of every specific example makes Mystara what it is - not nessissarily what we would Will it to be if we were to step back and look at the larger picture of what it is becoming based upon what we are doing overall. Check out the website. I hate to pick on B. Heard but he's a big boy and can take care of himself as I well know: the HKs went from setpiece villians in the Princess Ark series to a noble (or intended to be noble) "Liberation Theology" (what's with Vanya being the Immortal patron of Conquerers?) with no stop in between - from one extreme (the sinister foils for Haldemar and his heros to clash with) to the other extreme (the next heros to clash with the next villians - Thyatis this time, but who knows?) I myself think it would be better if they were more in-between, a more balanced portrayal, but I only get one vote, and I'm always in the "loyal opposition" 8-). I repeat myself, therefore I am: If Mystara ever was a shades of grey world, it no longer is. If anyone made it such, it was a lot of people, including most of us. If anyone can fix it, well Mystara is in our hands now. If we want to have a "shades of grey" world, we have to portray it that way. If you disagree with me and think we *do* have a "shades grey" world then the end is the same - we portray it that way. If something else is what we want, then something else is what we'll get. If something else isn't what we want, then we have to take steps to insure that we do have the kind of world we want. Because the kind of world we get will be the kind of world we create, with conseous forsight or not. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:34:48 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob > Theres another reason I do this too, aside from the political one. I like > every nation to be unique, and after playing Spelljammer for many years and > the mishmash (wizards picking the most powerful spells from > Greyhawk/FRealms/Dragonlance, joining planar factols as well, whatever) is > just sad. It totally lacks character, and if it was that easy, there would > be no Glantrian magic or perhaps not even Mystaran magic, it would all be > one bland single entity. IIRC, in one of the Dragon Magazines that featured the Karameikan School of Magecraft, they emphasized how different the attitudes and the mission of the KSoM is to the GSoM. In the KSoM, academic freedom, intellectual pursuits, heuristic quests are very much accepted and openly encouraged and nurtured. In the GSoM, it is NOT. Unfortunately, for wizards, Glantri has a lot more to offer (at least, at the time) than the KSoM. I think an article somewhere in Shawn's Site or the Almanac... something about an interview with Prince Harald and Terari... also explains the differences, in character. The KSoM has a primer of common spells up to about Level 3, which is a lot less than even the spell list in the PHB. Other spells (higher levels and even those from Alphatia) become available through service, research, or apprenticeship with the senior wizards. In GKoM, spells can come from PHB, Tome of Magic, Complete Wizard's, the GKoM and other Glantrian spells, and the occasional spells from the rest of Mystara or beyond Mystara (Glantrian wizars probably view non-Glantrian spells as inferior, even if they are not really.) Of course, the GKoM also offers the Secret Crafts. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Actually, I didn't study in the Great School.... I learned that spell from my mother. Well... actually... she didn't study their either... But her second cousin's husband's best friend did! And I think that's how she got the spell." --a poor mage trying to play down a rather embarrassing fact about his educational background. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:48:22 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alexander Osias Subject: Stefan Karamiekos: The Truth is Out There? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What if Stefan Karameikos no longer exists? What if someone else has taken his place... in all likelihood during the WOTI period before he started acting all "non-hero king-ish". What if someone decided THEY would be better in his place.... Did anyone actually SEE him during the Week Without Magic... aside from his wi-... wife who has a vast spy network and never confirmed the rumors of bad stuff going down in Halag nor the former Black Eagle Barony. A wife who decided not to marry him until she was sure he could handle pulling a kingdom together... or rather until the hard work was done... A wife who could CERTAINLY tell if her husband was a doppleganger or mind-controlled or anything along those lines... Hm.... has anyone seen the movie Dave? "Mulder, surely you're not suggesting that King Stefan Karameikos has been replaced by an impostor... and that his wife is in on it?" "Scully, if you look at the Duke Stefan's portraits done before he became King, you'll notice distinct differences..." "I'm not hearing this..." "But Scully..." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:23:17 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos In-Reply-To: Jeremy Morris 's message of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:43:42 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Good ole Stefan isn't exactly the wisest or smartest person. What he does have is vision. Gaz 1 states that his management style is to find the right person for the job and have them do it. And the book acknowledges his inability to see evil in his own relatives. Didn't he know Ludwig was the stereotypical racist Hattian before he appointed him Baron? Does he know that his wife and youngest son are thieves. He's lucky for certain. I would not be surprised if Adriana doesn't make a better ruler than her father. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:35:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. In-Reply-To: Master's Pawn 's message of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:52:29 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I have my copy of Gaz 3 in front of me and the only admission requirement mentioned to the GSoM is money. As for the Circles there are several methods of gaining entry, but money also works. And boy, did Elcalear spend money. The rules on the Secret Crafts forbid him from teaching anybody in Karameikos Dracology. He could teach the Complementary Courses. I figure that Karameikans became persona non grata at the Great School in 1010/1011 if they let any in at all now they are probably watched like hawks. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:49:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. In-Reply-To: Rob 's message of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:18:12 -0000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Here are what I consider the strengths of the KSoM Since Karameikos is infested by undead and werecreatures, research in anti-necromorph and anti-werecreature magic is probably very advanced. Such researches might be discouraged in Glantri, where some of the nobles are undead and werecreatures. Due to the Alphatian presence, research in Air magic might be somewhat advanced. Karameikos probably has a secret skyship development program going. Although they probably have nothing better than converted sailing vessels/flying sailboat type things. Research into minor gypsy style divination magic is probably good. It would fit the culture. There is probably some research into communication magic going on to help the WDL nations keep in better contact with each other. There is probably some research in battle magic for the WDLDF If true gunpowder is used as described in the Dragon magazine article Ready, Aim, Fire, there is some likelyhood of research into improving the metallurgy techniques involved in making cannons and into improving the gunpowder fomulations and milling process. The Karameikan government is probably trying to buy samples of the Ochalean powder hoping that the alchemists of the KSoM can replicate its manufacture. The smaller hand weapons like Arquebuses are probably unknown in Karameikos. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:04:01 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Interview with Brendan Corliss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OK, as promised, here's an interview with Brendan Corliss (aka Trenton Densmore, aka Corwyn Ashworth). He is a key NPC in my campaign; almost a Rheddrian-type character as far as his interaction with the PC's. Actually, the initial idea for him was inspired by "Silk" from Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorean series. Of course he's a bit more, well, on-the-level, but he does have several identities to conduct a variety of business. Eventually I'll get around to posting his stats as well as some detail on the other identities. For now, here's the perspective that most of Darokin has seen of him. It's pretty RAH! RAH! but then again it's more or less Darokinian propaganda. ;-p Oh yeah, imagine the interviewer as the Republic's version of Barbara Walters. The following is from Mara Taheri�s column, Face of Success, in the Sviftmont 8, 997 edition of The Gold Standard (Darokin City�s weekly news periodical): Most of us who have done any bit of travelling in the Republic recently have at least heard of The Corliss Guides, no doubt. The brainchild of Brendan Corliss, these guides help even the most novice traveler feel confident while journeying the roads of Darokin... and beyond. The information contained within can give one an instant familiarity with a variety of destinations. In this week�s Face of Success, I had a chance to sit down with the twenty-seven year old cartographer-cum-journalist and find out about Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. as well as the man behind the name. So, Brendan, most of us are familiar with The Corliss Guides, so tell us something about you. Who is Brendan Corliss? Well, that�s a tough one. I guess I�d start off with a little bit of family history. Most folks know that I�m Darokinian, but few people are aware that I was born in Karameikos� Specularum to be exact. Really? But isn�t your father the infamous DDC arbitrator, Dorian Corliss? Yes, he is. But my mother was Traladaran. My father was part of the original DDC mission in Specularum after the arrival of Duke Stefan. That�s where he met my mother. I was born a few years later and my father decided that a more stable position with the DDC might be in order with a family and all. So he moved us to Darokin City when I was very young and took up more of an administrative position at the DDC headquarters. Your parents are still in Darokin City, of course- Well, my father is. My mother passed away when I was fifteen. That�s part of the reason I took up my apprenticeship and left home at the age of sixteen. "Matka" and I were very close and I needed a change after she was gone. How did that relationship with your mother influence you? Actually, both my parents instilled in me a great deal of respect for different cultures - just by the environment I was raised in. We had a very cosmopolitan household when I was growing up. But one of the things that still sticks with me about "Matka" was the rich Traladaran history she taught me. That�s one of the reasons I spend so much time in Karameikos these days� they are also my people. My father always stressed the importance of knowing your heritage but "Matka" was the one who showed it to me first hand - teaching me to speak Traladaran, telling me the folk-stories. She was really my only link to my Karameikan roots. After taking up your apprenticeship, you traveled extensively in the central areas of the Known World. What kind of impact did that have on you? I was always very fond of maps as a child, so cartography seemed like a natural for me. And since you normally have to see the area you�re mapping first hand, I had an opportunity to travel a great deal. I was often affiliated with various merchant caravans making their way across Darokin, as well as Alfheim and Karameikos. I found that I really enjoyed the chance to see new places and meet new people. As I traveled, I found that many merchants were very confident on their typical runs, but when they were on an unfamiliar route, they seemed somewhat hesitant and lacking a bit of confidence. That�s what initially inspired me to write the first Corliss Guide. It seemed obvious to me that travelers of The Known World could really use something like this. How did you go about bringing this concept to fruition? Well, the first step was convincing my father to finance the start-up. I had made a modest profit during those early years on the road, but I was barely twenty years old. I didn�t have the financial resources to get a venture like that off the ground. Fortunately, my father is a very wise man when it comes to business; he saw the potential immediately. Of course, that meant that we were partners and I didn�t necessarily have the final say in certain matters... but at that point, I was just happy to get the chance to prove myself. That was the birth of Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. But isn�t that your company now? More or less. My father is still a minority partner, but I�m pretty much running things on my own now. As I said before, my father is a wise man when it comes to business. He isn�t about to let me take home all the profit from such a lucrative operation. Especially when he was so pivotal in its creation. The fourth Corliss Guide was the first to address an area other than the Republic itself. How did you research the Corliss Guide to Alfheim? As I alluded to earlier, I had been involved with a caravan or two making its way into the Canolbarth. On one of those trips I got to know an elf named Siredhel Erinath from the Chossum clan. He was hired as an emissary of sorts by our trading factor. In school, I had studied a bit of Elvish and Siredhel was kind enough to help me further my studies on our excursion to Alfheimtown. By the time the caravan had wrapped up its business, I decided to stick around and see if I could manage to get some mapping done in the elven homeland without having to develop an appreciation for elvish marksmanship. Fortunately, Siredhel was intrigued by my proposal and accompanied me as a guide... well, baby-sitter is probably a more accurate term. With the help of my companion, I managed to make quite a tour of Alfheim and come away with some lovely maps of the Canolbarth. Years later, my experiences there led to the aforementioned publication. Isn�t Mr. Erinath one of your current employees at Corliss Enterprises? (Laughing) I�m sure he would be somewhat amused by that assessment - as well as the title of �Mr. Erinath�. Actually, Siredhel stills accompanies me on many of my trips, especially to the Alfheim and Karameikos areas, but he doesn�t exactly work for me. I think it would be more accurate to characterize it as free-lance work. Back to life here in the Republic - you seem to be linked The Church of Darokin quite often. What exactly is your affiliation? Hmm. I am certainly a member of the Church and a follower of its teachings but aside from that, I wouldn�t really say I have an official �affiliation�. Of course, like any successful businessman, I thank Asterius everyday for the good fortune I�ve had in my life. But then, I believe that the Immortals �help those who help themselves� to a certain degree. More accurately, if you�re willing to work for something in life, then you�ll most likely succeed... eventually. Some of us are just fortunate enough to see the fruits of our labors sooner than others. On a social note, local gossip has it that you are engaged to marry Anissa Linden. What�s the real story? Well, as is so common with rumors, there�s no truth to that. Anissa and I have been good friends for years but unless there is something she isn�t telling me, there are no such plans. Besides, I don�t think she would be able to put up with a husband always gallivanting across the countryside. Brendan, you�ve seen a great deal of prosperity for a man your age, even in the midst of the surplus of success stories that is Darokin City. What�s next for you and Corliss Enterprises? A looong vacation. No, seriously, I�d say that finishing the Corliss Guide to Southern Karameikos is my most immediate goal. After that, who knows? Maybe Ierendi? Minrothad? The Five Shires? At this point, I�m fortunate enough to be in a position where I can just see what happens... And with that, Brendan Corliss sums up the optimistic atmosphere that characterizes so many of Darokin�s young entrepreneurs these days. With many years ahead of him and a great deal of success under his belt, he demonstrates "The Darokinian Dream" in its purest form: financial as well as personal freedom. This is Mara Taheri for The Gold Standard bringing you another Face of Success. And in the words of Brendan Corliss, �May all your endeavors be Gold!� So there you go, folks. Hope you enjoy! auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:20:24 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > > As Mystara is a world about war and nations, I assume that magic is a > national resource, like, say, nuclear weapons. Glantrians arent going to > train anyone. I assume that foreigners or those who are "politically > unreliable" may be admitted to the GSoM, but will not be admitted to a > circle. Glantri is not going to dole out Dracology to say, Karameikos, no > way on Ordanas green planet. Any more than the USA is going to give someone > else nukes. Esoteric magic IMC is pretty tightly controlled. > I agree it should be tightly controlled, but GAZ3 already has an example of a foreigner being a member of a secret circle. The Alfheim ambassador is a 1st circle Dracologist. GAZ3 leaves it clear that it is up to the members of the secret craft as to who joins, if a foreigner can persuade a sponsor than he might join. The crafts are controlled by those who are in the highest circles, and the leader of the craft answers to no one. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:17:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Damon Brown ha scritto: > --- Caroletti wrote: > > > > The last post on the Stefan Karameikos subject > > clearly showed how different > > perspectives people from different countries may > > have on the same subject. > > But, even if I dislike the man as untrustworthy and > > I still think he is a traitor, > > (very) probably he has done more good things to > > Karameikos than bad ones. > > And this, I suppose, is enough to be loved by his > > subjects. > > See, James? Here's an example of the "black" and > "white" issue. I can see why the Thyatians would think > Stefan was a traitor and Karameikans would think he's > a hero. > > I think the specific "good guys" and "bad guys" is > more a function of later products as opposed to the > Gazzeteers. And until we have people who have different ideas on the same characters, nations etc., we're sure to stay tuned to that feeling. A Thyatian willcontinue to hate traitor Stefan; a Karameikan will continue to love him; and most other countries won't care. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:19:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Iulius Sergius Scaevola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker ha scritto: > - Okay 'Stalker', my young apprentice! The Thyatian enemy just gave us his entire history. It should now be an easy task for you to use THAT spell on him, since you have all the required information - so get to it! > > - Yes, Master Terari! ;) This really got me worried. Should I really continue my story, my dear enemy? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:24:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland ha scritto: > > > > See, James? Here's an example of the "black" and > > "white" issue. I can see why the Thyatians would think > > Stefan was a traitor and Karameikans would think he's > > a hero. > > > Except that with just about one lone exception (the event in WotI where > "Karameikos Sells out") I can't think of any description that portrays > Stefan in other than glowing terms in any of the published materiels. I'd > be happy to be corrected if you have counterexamples. > Sure, the Thyatians won't like Stefan. But "everyone knows" what we're > supposed to think of their opinion (see PWAs for how Thyatians should be > treated) - in fact, Stefan is one of the great examples of how things are > "black" vs "white" and his association with the Alphatians is also > emblematic of their shift over to the "light side of the force." Don't try > and tell me Dupuis, for example, held a balanced view of the Empires. . . . > > Well, fortunately this didn't happen in our humble Stefan discussion. I think I was talking with Jeremy and Rob, and one of them (or both) recognized: 1) Thyatians didn't rule bad, so they were not evil conquerors 2) Stefan Karameikos has done his errors 3) Too few Traladaran nobles 4) Strangeness of refusing military aid to Thyatis It simply shows that not all the people on the list like the Ice Cream Cake Game idea of Mystara. Maybe more than James thinks. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:36:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy Morris ha scritto: > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > end maybe the Karameikans are right. Although in the beginning he was > > > not a great ruler, he learned (also in his own interest) to be at least a > > wise > > > one. > > > > > He did? When? > > Musta been when I wasn't lookin, 'cause last I checked the Hin had to step > > in and solve the major problem for him. > > A wise ruler? Or a fortunate one? Mmm. Being Italian, the word 'wise' maybe does not have for me the meaning it seems to have for you. I intended a ruler that payed more attention to the problems instead of acting semi-randomly like he seems to do in the beginning. I must also agree he was very lucky! > > > > While Stefan hasn't had any real accomplishments he can > > really call his own, he has been very fortunate and reaped a lot of > > windfalls. It does take luck to make one great, I suppose. > > Now this I will disagree with. Stefan has managed to keep a fractious > nation together WITHOUT having to place military garrissons in every town > to "pacify" the populace. There must be more to the histories than are in > the Gazeteers, because if the Traladarans were SO much better off under > Thyatian rule I don't think James intended this. He just pointed out that: 1) Thyatians didn't rule bad (and it's clearly depicted in Gaz1) 2) The first actions of Stefan weren't promising to the population But we must consider another thing. The persons who suffered the most from Stefan's appointment as Archduke was the aristocratic Traladaran families and their allies. I think Stefan came as a blessing for the people of the inland, because they finally had a ruler that begun to provide them military, etc., while we have, in the Gaz, Thyatians who care only of the coastal region. But, given this, I believe that, if Thyatians had organized better their rule on the region, providing the things Stefan did (and surely they could have done without many problems) without killing Traladarian nobles, maybe things would have gone even better for the land, at least before the WotI War. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:26:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: [GPD] Tereis of Haaskinz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finally, we bring you Tereis Hasskinz, sister to Harald and an importent = NPC in her own right. I hope you like her. This file (and all files on = the GPD) were edited by the one and only- Kit Navarro. I also would like to thank all the members of the team for giving advice = and comments. Enjoy- Tereis Haaskinz Sister of Prince Harald Haaskinz Retired Adventuress Air Elementalist of the Fourth Circle By Ohad Shaham AC 1014 "You see, Matera travels thusly through space? and that causes the = course to look like this? and this is why I'm almost positively sure? = well, there must be? another one? A MOON, you ignorant fool! Oh, never = mind! You wouldn't understand anyway." (Lady Tereis trying to explain a complex astronomical theory in the = Great School of Magic. I Appearance Tereis is a tall woman with a slim built. She has fair skin color and = light brown hair, and she has grayish big blue eyes. Tereis usually = wears long wizard robes of white and sky blue. She sometimes wears a = silver tiara, and usually binds her hair. Tereis looks about forty years = old, she is actually in her mid seventies. Tereis always stands very erect, and her eyes seem to look at a point = slightly higher than the person she is talking too. Some people presume = that this is typical noble snobbism, and some say she is dreamy and = doesn't really listen to what is being said. II Personality Tereis was once the adventurous type. She used to love the great = outdoors, and to seek out the wonders of the Known World and beyond. = These days Tereis rarely leaves the urban realms, spending her time = either researching, or in teaching at the Great School of Magic, or at = Sablestone, researching some more. Tereis is now a very important = professor of the Great School. As most of the Glantrian Alphatians are = gone, she has become the topmost authority on air magic and travel = spells. Unfortunately, Tereis is not a good teacher. She has no patience to her = students, except for the most gifted geniuses. She often finds herself = lecturing to the thin air of the classroom, as all the students have = either lost interest or fell asleep. The students don't even dare = thinking about asking to remove her from her teaching position, as they = know she is the Headmaster's sister. Tereis has no love for teaching and = only stays in the Great School for use of its laboratories, its library, = and other facilities. She has an observatory both at the Great School = and at Castle Sablestone, where she observes the stars and the night = sky, using magical means or regular vision. In general, Tereis is not keen on socializing. If she has to mingle at a = party or gathering, she often tells about her journeys to Sind, Thyatis = and other exotic locations and about her theories on magic and = astronomy. In spite all this, Tereis does enjoy the good life. She likes to get = dressed and feel feminine, and sometimes even go for a walk in the = Noble's Quarter of Glantri city. Tereis is not interested in men or = marriage, despite what gossips may say. Every now and than Tereis tries to keep in touch with her old = adventuring party. She has devised a spell to help her contact them = called courier dove. She most often contacts her friend Shensa, a = Darokinian living in Akorros. Shensa is a priest of Diulanna, and since = befriending her, Tereis has a very positive attitude toward clerics. She = is very satisfied with the changing attitudes in Glantri about the = priesthood, and yearns for the day when her friend will be able visit = her in Sablestone, or maybe even spend her last years in Glantri. Tereis = also has an open mind to other societies and races, even dwarves, as she = met a few on her journeys.=20 However, Tereis does harbor great hatred for the savage races of orcs, = goblins and other humanoids. She includes Ethengarans in this category = of savage races, and would willingly support an assault on the denizens = of the Great Crater or even the Ethengaran Steppes. III Background The Haaskinz name comes from ancient Hattian dominion in Thyatis, but = the Haaskinz family itself is already a mix of several ethnic groups, = including pure Alphatian, Darokinian, Thyatian and even some Sylaire = bloodlines. The Haaskinz family earned the Barony of Egorn after the = formation of the Republic, and has since then risen steadily through the = ranks of nobility. Tereis of Haaskinz was born in AC 946 to Danora and Constantine of = Haaskinz, then the son of the Marquis of Berrym. Even as an infant, = young Tereis displayed a strong curiosity of the world and its workings. = She also had obvious magical talent, like her brother Harald before her. While still a young girl, her family moved to Fenswick and Tereis was = sent to the Great School of Magic. Harald has graduated from the school = a year earlier with honors, and Tereis was treated very well by her = professors and peers. She used to ask questions that baffled even the = most experience mages and always had strange and unorthodox ideas ("Ooh! = Ooh! Why don't we all create a gate and see the Nightmare Dimension for = ourselves?"). When she turned 20, she graduated from the Great School and had a clear = view of what she wanted to do. She went straight up to her father, the = Duke of Fenswick at the time, and told him she was going to see the = world. Duke Constantine had to agree and could only take comfort in the = fact that Harald, the obvious heir to the title, has none his sister's = silly adventuring urges. Tereis started her journeys around the Known World, through the Broken = Lands and beyond, with a changing company of adventurers. She visited = exotic locals in Sind and sailed the Sea of Dread. She even once = traveled to Ylaruam, disguised as a Darokinian mage for hire. In her = travels she learned to respect other forms of society and cultures she = had never known before. Tereis spent nine years traveling in the lands south of Glantri, after = which she went back home to attend her father's funeral and her = brother's crowning as the Archduke of Westheath. She found life in = Glantri to be dull and unchallenging. Even her brother Harald had = absolutely no time for her, as he made preparations to marry a mundaner = woman named Asadel, a woman she did not like at all. Tereis decided to go back adventuring, this time heading north. Tereis = hooked up with a Wendarian adventuring party that planned to go north = into Denagoth. One night, as they all were asleep in the wilderness, = their camp was attacked by a gang of orc and human bandits. The guard = which kept awake was silently slaughtered and the entire party was = killed except for Tereis. Tereis was violently raped when asleep and = helpless to defend herself. She was too confused even to see the = rapist's face. She was then left lying at the camp side, where all her = friend lay dead or dying. By the time she got to her senses, it was to = late to save anyone. She only had little magic left in her, but that was = enough to avenge her friends with some destructive spells. Tereis traveled back to Wendar to recover from her terrible ordeal, only = than to discover she was pregnant as a result of the rape. Tereis was = devastated. She did not even know if the baby's father was a human or an = orc, and she was terrified of the latter possibility. When she had her strength back in a couple of months, Tereis went back = to Glantri and hid in a small inn at the city under a false identity. = She stayed there for a few more months, at the end of which, she gave = birth to a baby girl, which she named Nina. She was torn inside, for she = didn't know if the girl is human or only looks human as a baby. After = some tribulations she left the baby at the door of an orphanage in the = middle class section.=20 But Tereis could not abandon the child completely. She used magic to = keep track of the girls life and well-being. A few years later, an = examiner from the Great School arrived at the orphanage on his annual = visit checking for children with exceptionally high magical potential. = He was amazed to find that Nina had that potential and offered a = scholarship worth half of the tuition fee at the school if someone = agreed to sponsor the girl for the other half. The orphanage = her. Still, Tereis struggles to find the Fifth Circle and achieve High = Mastery of the Craft. Recently, Tereis has heard of a mysterious Alphatian mage who opened a = magic school in Karameikos. She knows his name is Master Terari and that = he is well-versed in all sorts of magic, especially air magic. She has = sent one of her courier doves to him, but has since not gotten a = response. Most other Glantrian nobles treat Tereis as they would treat her = brother, Prince Harald, who for better or for worse, prefers to be = ignored. V Statistics & Style of Magic 19th-level magic-user (D&D), 15th-level mage (AD&D), Air Elementalist of = the 4th Circle Str 8 Int18 Wis11 Dex 9 Con10 Cha14, AL N (D&D and AD&D). Languages: Thyatian (Glantrian dialect), Elvish (Erewan dialect), = Wendar, Darokinian. Skills: alternate magic, history (Glantri) , geography (Known World), = survival (forest), astronomy (+1). Tereis is a very accomplished wizardess and a devoted researcher. She = has invented more than two dozen new spells throughout her career, most = of which focus on travel and communication, as well demonstrate her = obvious fascination with elemental air. She also knows quite a bit of = combat spells that she found useful in her adventuring career. "You haven't heard this from me, but that mage has been? 'around.' If = you know what I mean..." Noussoir du Marais, embellishing on the truth. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:36:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Moorkroft- The True Story In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000120193524.007b98b0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > Since this came up, we've been tossing around some theories on the relation > of John Beaumarys-Moorkroft to Moorkroft Elvenbane from CM7, and I came up > with this idea- > > What if JBM isn't just related to ME- he *is* ME!! Cool Idea. Want to do a writeup on the guy? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:32:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Spells for Tereis of Hasskinz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Teries' Scents and Aromas (Conjuration, Elemental Air) Level: 1 Range: 3m (10') Duration: 1d6 hours Area of Effect: an area of no more than 10x10x10 meters This spell when cast, fills the air of a given area with a rich and = pleasing smell. Every kind of scent can be copied by these spell as long = as it is pleasant to the human nose. Examples of these are citrus = fruits, cinnamon, freshly-baked bread, coffee, spring flowers, seashore, = first rain and more. The smells are not illusions and cannot be disbelieved. This spell has = no effect in game terms part for atmosphere and role-playing situations. Tereis' Courier Dove (Alteration) Level: 3 Range: dove's flight Duration: one week Area of Effect: one scroll When this spell is cast on a written scroll, the scroll turns into a = white dove. The dove can then be told a name and a specific place. The = dove automatically knows where her destination is and immediately flies = in that direction in search of the specified person. If the dove can = reach that person in one week, it turns back into the scroll in his = hands. If not the dove vanishes and the scroll is lost. Tereis' Limited Teleportation I (Alteration) Level: 3 Range: sight Duration: instantaneous Area of Effect: 0 (caster only) This spell is identical to Teleportation, except that it can be cast on = the caster herself only, and the caster can only teleport to a location = she can see clearly. There are no chances of error as the area is "known = well" to the caster. Tereis' Limited Teleportation II (Alteration) Level: 4 Range: 50km (30miles) Duration: instantaneous Area of Effect: 0 (caster only) This spell is identical to the Teleportation spell, except for the Range = and area of effect limits. The chances of error are the same as the = original spell. The caster cannot teleport into a closed building with = this spell, although she can pass a castle wall or a cave's floor, if = the castle/cave have openings. Tereis' Star Eye (Alteration) Level: 4 Range: sight (special, see below) Duration: 1 turn per level Area of Effect: one of the caster's eyes This spell was initially researched by Tereis to examine stars more = closely, though it has far more uses than for stargazing. When this spell is cast one eye of the caster becomes a shining white = light. The caster can use this eye to see far objects with an = enlargement of up to x100. A round or two are needed to focus and = consternate on one object. The effect is similar to looking through a = powerful telescope. Clouds or fog can obscure vision and limit this = spell's range. When the star eye is active, the caster can only see = close objects with one eye and loses her peripheral vision, giving a -2 = penalty in melee and -4 with missile weapons. This spell affectivity grows tremendously when used with limited = teleportation or clear sight. Tereis' Protective Wind (Abjuration, Elemental Wind) Level: 6 Range: caster Duration: 1 turn per level Area of Effect: a sphere of wind 10 meters around the caster This spell causes intense winds to emit from the casters body. The winds = cause everything around the caster that can fly in the wind to fly out = of the area of effect. Missile weapons (even magical ones) are = ineffective when directed inside the area of effect. Anyone that tries = to attack the caster with a slashing or bludgeoning weapons suffers -4 = to hit and damage rules (piercing weapons unaffected). In addition the = wind partly protects the caster from every magic that causes physical = damage. If a fireball or icestorm are cast for example, the caster = receives an additional save for half damage. Lightning bolt or finger of = death are not effected. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? In-Reply-To: <200001210146.UAA12294@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > How about GAZ10 - The Broken Lands. The Gazetteer that changed how I > > > That's a good one. I like that one too. > Unfortunately, like so much that happened, the PWAs went right back to > portraying the 'noids in the usual way. Sure, Kol becomes a Prince of > Glantri, but he's portrayed kind of shabbiliy as just Syn's dupe, IMO. > That's too bad, because in Gaz10 he comes off seeming like a very capable > machiavelian himself. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. The humanoids in that Gazetteer were great, and I've tended to make my humanoids much more "human" because of it. Unfortunately, it seems that TSR's direction for all of their worlds is to make humanoids the "generic evil" that PCs can bash on without having to worry about their actions. I tend to use mindless undead and constructs for this myself nowadays, but it looks like 3rd edition will continue this trend in the published material. Also, I loved Kol in Gaz10, but I agree that later works, especially GKoM, have turned him into less than he was. I decided long ago that a campaign that ends with Kol turning on Synn and defeating her with a scheme that he'd been hatching since Synn first approached him would have been the perfect justice for Synn. Not that he'd become "good" to defeat her, but just because the little schemer would use her to further his own ends and turn on her when it suited him. And I like the thought of Synn being defeated by a kobold** ;) Jeremy **And I like Kol being a kobold, not a Shadow Elf. It's not a bad plot, really, but it does take a little bit away from the whole "humanoid Prince" thing if it turns out that he's not really a humanoid. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:09:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? In-Reply-To: ; from morris@MCS.KENT.EDU on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:01:36AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:01:36AM -0500, Jeremy Morris wrote: > > Also, I loved Kol in Gaz10, but I agree that later works, especially GKoM, > have turned him into less than he was. I decided long ago that a campaign > that ends with Kol turning on Synn and defeating her with a scheme that > he'd been hatching since Synn first approached him would have been the > perfect justice for Synn. Not that he'd become "good" to defeat her, but > just because the little schemer would use her to further his own ends and > turn on her when it suited him. And I like the thought of Synn being > defeated by a kobold** ;) Absolute agreement on this, and strangely enough, pretty much what's going to happen in my campaign :) Yup, I like the kobald who (IMC) has managed to go from scheming against Kol, to ruling Glantri - OK, ruling Glantri wont last that long (the PC's will have something to say about it), but he's certainly no dumb bad guy who's about to screw up and let the good guys win... gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:16:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Darokin Comments: To: James Ruhland In-Reply-To: <200001201835.NAA20295@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net>; from jruhlconob@sprynet.com on Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:32:04PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:32:04PM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > > Btw, the Shires is way too pacific and happy-go-lucky. It's about time for > their next major 'noid invasion, I think. Reduce the population to lower > densities like other areas, and put more monsters in them thar hills. I knew a GM who managed to turn the Five Shires into an anarchy after a plague appeared which only affected halflings - based somewhat on the Babylon 5 episode where the Markab aliens are hit by a plague. In the end a cure was discovered, but it was too late for most of the halflings in the world, and only a few remain (one being a PC) Meanwhile the Shires were being fought over by Orcs, Thyatians, Karameikans and the Ierendi. It certainly made the place interesing. My own plans for the shires involve an invasion by the Glaurants - see http://dnd.starflung.com/blkflame.html by Andrew Theisen gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:28:55 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? Comments: To: James Ruhland In-Reply-To: <200001210405.XAA07119@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jruhlconob@sprynet.com on Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 10:03:26PM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 10:03:26PM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > (resulting in a school of magic that opens > its doors one month, has its students casting spells the next month, and is > competing seriously - or so we're expected to believe - in a rivalry with > Glantri's GSoM before the end of the year. And here I've been told > magecraft was an arcane art that took years of study to master. Silly me > for believing such lies!) Ahem, yes, well, in my own campaign the school of magecraft is doing quite well for a school that's just opened. But to compare it to the GSOM which has been around for 200 years, well, umn no. One of my players has a journal of the campaign, with (what I think is) a more realistic interpretation of the school of magecraft... http://www.esatclear.ie/~koranov/eva.html starting 25 Thaumont, 1014 gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:36:27 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karamiekos: The Truth is Out There? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What if Stefan Karameikos no longer exists? What if someone else has taken > his place... in all likelihood during the WOTI period before he started > acting all "non-hero king-ish". What if someone decided THEY would be > better in his place.... > Yes - its Thantos. I knew it the whole time, but I didn't want to say because a certain faction of Mystaraphiles would be irate if they knew their "god-king" wasn't Halav, but Thantos. That's why so many areas around Karameikos suffer and are even destroyed. Eventually Thantos plans to hit Karameikos, too - now that there are refugees from these lands he's damaged or destroyed in the place, it will be much more enjoyable for him when he devistates it. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? In-Reply-To: <200001210405.XAA07119@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > Admitedy, the excuses the writers devised to explain his behavior were so > paper thin it would be laughable if it wasn't so distressing, but their > intent is clear - Stefan was intended and portrayed as a "hero king" (or > Duke) - K:KoA pegs his alignment LG, even if I'd argue that his actual > actions were at times chaotic and in some cases close to that other > alignment. But that'd just be me, and I'm known for my deviant heresies > which most folks don't take seriously. Actually, I'd probably peg Stefan's alignment as Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral. His intentions seem towards order and Law, even if the results end up chaotic, and most of his intentions are also for good, even if the results end up less than good. Alignment is (in my mind, anyway) more about how you believe, not how competent you are in enforcing your beliefs, so LG for Stefan probably isn't far off. > > > However, Karameikos is an innocuous nation as far as the other nations of > > Brun are concerned. Stefan isn't expansionist, since he's got more land > > than he needs right now. He needs allies, so he won't threaten them. > > > Really? He almost seems to have used some sort of dark sorcery to have his > nation benifit at the expense of other nations - Alfheim gets slagged so he > can get more Elves, Actually, the Elves are quite bad for Stefan, IMHO, since there are a lot of them and they aren't necessarily happy with their lot. They might not be out to overthrow the King, but IMC they won't be necessarily looking out for his best interests (the Alfeim elves, that is. The Callarii are still allied, and frictions between them and the Alfheim elves would also throw a wrench into Stefans plans. > all sorts Alphatian refugees settle in Karameikos, And this is a good thing? Personally, I would think that this would increase friction with the Thyatian land-owners, since the history of Alphatia and Thyatis is what it is. And, Stefan "selling out" to the Alphatians in the first place probably increases the friction between him, the Thyatian land-owners, and (IMC, anyway) the Church of Karameikos. (Especially the militant Order of the Griffon that has strong Vanya worship in my campaigns). > building up its magical power (resulting in a school of magic that opens > its doors one month, has its students casting spells the next month, and is > competing seriously - or so we're expected to believe - in a rivalry with > Glantri's GSoM before the end of the year. And here I've been told > magecraft was an arcane art that took years of study to master. I suspect, even if I'm not sure that it was stated, that the School took over teaching for the Guild (based from Specularum/Mirros). The Guild's students moved to Krakatos, resulting in a slightly quieter capitol city and a School that begins with fairly advanced students. Mind you, I doubt that it would be much competition with the Glantrian SoM unless there were a lot more refugees from Alphatia than I would suspect. > Silly me > for believing such lies!) His homeland goes down the tubes, etc. If I were > other nations I'd see him as a greater threat than the Master of Hule (ok, > that part was tounge in cheek). Heh-heh. "Oh-no! It's King Stefan! The downfall of allies everywhere! Quick, before he topples our kingdom from a thousand miles away!" ;) Seriously, most of these things are detriments to Stefan in my mind, even if the TSR campaign didn't intend them this way. These are great touches for long-running campaigns. > > > he seems to be a nice guy, if a bit unwise. So why should any nation > > pre-WoTI have anything against him? Even post WoTI, only Thyatis and > > maybe Glantri and Heldann would have any reason to dislike the count. > > > Well, thats one of my problems, not with Stefan or Karameikos but with the > KW in general - it's one big fat happy-go-lucky family, more Barneyesque > than Panglossia to the east - every nation in the KW except for the > boogiemen (Thyatis, HKland) sings "I love you, you love me, we're a happy > family" at every meeting of the WDL. Far from disproving my assertion that > the KW is divided into "black and white" nations, this tends instead to > confirm it - the kindly nations have a club (the WDL) where they get > together as part of a mutual admiration society. Okay, I think I see where you're coming from, and I agree that during and post WoTI (i.e. post Gazetteers) the world became more black and white. Part of it, I think, was the fact that every Gaz was written by a different person, while the WoTI and post-Wrath stuff had products that were written by a single person. The one person to a nation approach worked well because each author wanted to make their nation the good guys, so we get to see the good and the bad. The DotE box suffers in this respect, because both empires are good guys and bad guys, and so I personally think Alphatia comes out looking a little better than Thyatis. > Except most of those who are good come from predictable places or > backrounds (the "bad" clans of Rockhome, for instance), most of those who > are bad likewise, and most of the nations are portrayed based upon that. > Thus I reassert that if Mystara is "shades of grey" it's only because when > you mix the sharply-contrasted black vs white nations and people, grey is > the color you end up with. But grey is not the portrayal in specific > instances, and the general is composed of the agrigation of each specific > instance. Therefore Mystara is not "shades of grey," though I would agree > with you that I would prefer that to be the case, not since PWA II, if not > before, has it been such. And people's impressions & their continuity of > development is based upon, for good or ill, that stuff that came later, or > so it seems (see just about every specific-instance post or website). I would definitely agree that post-Wrath the shades of grey fall apart and the world becomes more black and white. Pre-Wrath, I personally think it was a little more grey, although being a fantasy world there is more black and white than in our world (at least to my perceptions). I tend to play up the shades of grey stuff, though, because I like to mess with my player's heads. > website. I hate to pick on B. Heard but he's a big boy and can take care of > himself as I well know: the HKs went from setpiece villians in the Princess > Ark series to a noble (or intended to be noble) "Liberation Theology" > (what's with Vanya being the Immortal patron of Conquerers?) with no stop > in between - from one extreme (the sinister foils for Haldemar and his > heros to clash with) to the other extreme (the next heros to clash with the > next villians - Thyatis this time, but who knows?) I myself think it would > be better if they were more in-between, a more balanced portrayal, but I > only get one vote, and I'm always in the "loyal opposition" 8-). (I'll preface this by saying that I haven't finished reading the HK stuff on the website. I haven't used them before, but I am curious to see what Bruce Heard did with them) Personally, I think it is a mark of a shade of grey when the villains DON'T see themselves as villains. Villains like Ludwig are the mark of a world where things fall into black and white. I would think that the HKs actually believe in what they do. From an Alphatian perspective this is terrible, from an HK position, they are just and good. The D&D alignment system was better at portraying this than the AD&D one, which may be a contributing factor. I've always seen Lord Kelvin as this kind of villain. He firmly believes in what he does, and if you were his ally you'd probably agree with him. My players ended up on the opposite side, and he made a perfect opponent because he wasn't "eeevil", just a man with a different agenda. > I repeat myself, therefore I am: If Mystara ever was a shades of grey > world, it no longer is. If anyone made it such, it was a lot of people, > including most of us. If anyone can fix it, well Mystara is in our hands > now. If we want to have a "shades of grey" world, we have to portray it > that way. If you disagree with me and think we *do* have a "shades grey" > world then the end is the same - we portray it that way. If something else > is what we want, then something else is what we'll get. If something else > isn't what we want, then we have to take steps to insure that we do have > the kind of world we want. Because the kind of world we get will be the > kind of world we create, with conseous forsight or not. I agree whole-heartedly. Plus, on the net, we have an opportunity to do something that TSR couldn't. Part of what makes a shades of grey work are differing opinions about events and ideas. If we have Thyatis-lovers, Thyatis-haters, Alphatia-lovers and haters, Karameikos lovers and haters, etc. all discussing differing viewpoints about their "favored nations," those differing views can lead to better shades-of-grey "products" (websites, almanacs,adventures, whatever) than a small group of designers who have to live within the restrictions of the market and publishing reality can. Unfortunately, you can also get a hodgepodge of things where every nation is a "good" nation and gets along harmoniously like you said above, so I agree that this is something to look out for. Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:46:28 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Stefan Karamiekos: The Truth is Out There? Comments: To: James Ruhland In-Reply-To: <200001211438.JAA15708@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net>; from jruhlconob@sprynet.com on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 08:36:27AM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 08:36:27AM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > What if Stefan Karameikos no longer exists? What if someone else has > taken > > his place... in all likelihood during the WOTI period before he started > > acting all "non-hero king-ish". What if someone decided THEY would be > > better in his place.... > > > Yes - its Thantos. I knew it the whole time, but I didn't want to say > because a certain faction of Mystaraphiles would be irate if they knew > their "god-king" wasn't Halav, but Thantos. That's why so many areas around > Karameikos suffer and are even destroyed. Eventually Thantos plans to hit > Karameikos, too - now that there are refugees from these lands he's damaged > or destroyed in the place, it will be much more enjoyable for him when he > devistates it. 8-)~ Actually, it's not Thanatos either, that's just what the Outer Beings want you to think :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:47:41 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: re Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Probably faked his way in as an Erewanian . . . little did they know. "They all look alike to me" Typical Von-Glantrian Magicstocrat. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:56:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. In-Reply-To: <10806-38880F84-281@storefull-295.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Ron Rogers wrote: > Here are what I consider the strengths of the KSoM > > Research into minor gypsy style divination magic is probably good. It > would fit the culture. Of course, since divination is part of the Traladaran religion, the School could find this area stifled by the Church of Traladaran AND the Church of Karameikos. Traladara because that's stepping on their turf, Karameikos because it lends credence to the rival religion. I'd suspect that the School wouldn't care about the Churchs' opinions, but there could be a hook there. I would also suspect that the School would encourage enchantments and magic-item creation, since these also appear to be Alphatian specialties. Nice ideas, Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:00:15 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Good ole Stefan isn't exactly the wisest or smartest person. What he > does have is vision. Gaz 1 states that his management style is to find > the right person for the job and have them do it. > Yep - Find Ludwig, use him to terrorize the Traladarans into submission and make himself look good by comparison. Works every time 8-). Re the Karameikos School of "Want to be a Mage? How to learn magic in 30 days or less, or your money back!" > > There is probably some research in battle magic for the WDLDF > One would have thought this would be a specialty of the Colegium Arcanum/College of Lucinius in Thyatis City, perhaps - but no, obviously it should be the specialty of a neuveau school. But actually, for a school that opened last tuesday (though, admitedly, early last tuesday), one has to wonder whether it's really developed a lot of "specialization" at all? Of course it could be that the Karameikans just show such a great aptitude for magic. In which case you forgot one specialty: certainly Master Terari will be teaching these guys the Secret Craft of Draedens very soon. I myself would much rather be a 4th Circle Draedenologist than some piker who can only manage Dracology. 8-)~. Master Terari probably has a Regis Philbin-voice. I can hear it now "Who wantsta be a Draedena-a!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:03:35 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Prince Kol: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Also, I loved Kol in Gaz10, but I agree that later works, especially GKoM, > have turned him into less than he was. I decided long ago that a campaign > that ends with Kol turning on Synn and defeating her > Yes, that's an excellent idea. I too ignore any references to Kol being a Shadow Elf, too. Not that Shadow Elves are bad in and of themselves or anything, but because making him one was just part of draining away the sense that Humanoids were capable beings in and of their own right. Kol should be a Kobold. The Shadow Elves have their places in the sun, elsewhere. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > results end up less than good. Alignment is (in my mind, anyway) more > about how you believe, not how competent you are in enforcing your > beliefs, so LG for Stefan probably isn't far off. > Alignment isn't self-image; alignment is actions. Most evil types (except cardboard-cuttout snidely-whiplash types) don't go around saying to themselves "I'm evil, lets see what villany I can unleash today." They see their actions as perfectly appropriate, perfectly normal, rationalizing them however they do. Behavior determines alignment, not beliefs. Or everyone would be "good" or at least "neutral" because hardly anyone sees their own actions as wicked. Anyhow, I just wanted to add that part into the debate mix. As for Stefan: well, your assertion that "LG for Stefan probably isn't far off" tends to prove my point that things are portrayed in "black" and "white" terms. > > Actually, the Elves are quite bad for Stefan, IMHO, since there are a lot > of them and they aren't necessarily happy with their lot. > So far they haven't been portrayed that way too much. Admitedly the MA adds in a few troublemakers, but it's not like they're "quite bad for Stefan" - on balance they've been a positive boon for him, and it's very certain that they won't do anything that's quite bad for Stefan or for Karameikos - the worst they'll do is wave a friendly goodby when they go back to Alfheim-Aengmor. They certainly aren't going to raise holy cain in Karameikos and try to secceed. > > all sorts Alphatian refugees settle in Karameikos, > > And this is a good thing? > It's been portrayed so far as nothing but. Everyone gets along in Karameikos like long-lost chummers, it's almost as if Thyphatia became a reality in Karameikos. They have superb relations with NACE as a result, and are treated almost as if they were a member (one example - Ericall of Norwold pays good money to NACE to support it & finance its armies, but didn't get squat from NACE during the "recent unpleasantness" - but what do you think NACE's first response would be if Karameikos were in trouble? Why, the aid would be lavish and immediate). I agree with you that there should be more friction, but so far there has been effectively none. Nothing but CONCORD in fact. > > Heh-heh. "Oh-no! It's King Stefan! The downfall of allies everywhere! > Quick, before he topples our kingdom from a thousand miles away!" ;) > I still think he's Thantos incarnate. Gotta watch out and see what happens once T is finished in Thyatis. . . . > > so we get to see the good and the bad. The DotE box suffers in this > respect, because both empires are good guys and bad guys, and so I > personally think Alphatia comes out looking a little better than Thyatis. > Yah, but only a little. Admitedly the stuff to help DM's portray Thyatis' flaws are more detailed than the stuff intended to help portray Alphatia's flaws (rules on treachery, etc), but as fans of Alphatia will tell you that's in part due to the fact that they devoted more space in the DotE DMSB to Thyatis than Alphatia. DotE is still the most evenhanded portrayal of both places, even if Alphatia comes out looking a little better. > > I would definitely agree that post-Wrath the shades of grey fall apart and > the world becomes more black and white. Pre-Wrath, I personally think it > was a little more grey, although being a fantasy world there is more black > and white than in our world (at least to my perceptions). I tend to play > up the shades of grey stuff, though, because I like to mess with my > player's heads. > You're a good man then, Charlie Brown 8-) > > Personally, I think it is a mark of a shade of grey when the villains > DON'T see themselves as villains. > See above re. Alignment. Note that this isn't really a mark of a shade of grey because except for the most melodramatic of worlds villians never see themselves as being bad guys. Note also that the "Timeline" isn't intended (as far as I can tell) as a "History of the HKs from the HK's point of view," but is intended as an "objective" (I.E. "DM's History Of") history of the HKs. Bruce even posted a "patch" to correct a "consistancy error in DotE" (actually, there is no consistancy error in DotE's portrayal, but more on that another time perhaps - that isn't the point I'm trying to make here). Again, one could say that they were portrayed in dark and sinister terms before, and now they are portrayed in bright and shining terms now, so the "average" is grey, but I'd say that's incorrect, because vacilating from one extreme to the other does not make for a "shades of grey" world. The HKs can and should actually believe in what they do, and others should hold varying opinions of the. That's different - that would be more akin to "shades of grey", and certainly a step forward from either their portrayal in the Princess Ark series & JA or in the "Timeline of the Heldannic Knights". > > I've always seen Lord Kelvin as this kind of villain. He firmly believes > in what he does, and if you were his ally you'd probably agree with him. > My players ended up on the opposite side, and he made a perfect opponent > because he wasn't "eeevil", just a man with a different agenda. > He never really does anything but sit in Kelvin and brood, though. At least not in "the materiel" - neither the published nor the MAs. That just makes him discontented, not a villian or a hero to anyone. > > I agree whole-heartedly. Plus, on the net, we have an opportunity to do > something that TSR couldn't. Part of what makes a shades of grey work are > differing opinions about events and ideas. If we have Thyatis-lovers, > Thyatis-haters, Alphatia-lovers and haters, Karameikos lovers and haters, > etc. > Though I'd argue that it doesn't make for a "shades of grey" world if folks always protray "their favorite" in positive terms and "their disliked nations" in utterly negative terms - again what we get is two colors, sharp black and sharp white. Mixing them together might make grey on average, but that is an inapt comparison because well-roundedness is absent. Take me for an example - me portraying Thyatis positively and Alphatia negatively in counterpoise to folks who do the reverse doesn't really result in a balanced portrayal overall, does it? I don't think it has. I'm looking forward to a day when I don't have to "leap in" every time there is a IMO distorted positive portrayal of Alphatia or IMO distorted negative portrayal of Thyatis and give my usual littany of my version of the "other side." It'd be better, IMO, if I could instead spend more of my time creating a well-rounded impression of Thyatis instead of having to defend it fanatically in an almost blindly-devoted way, and conversely spend more time on a more balanced portrayal of Alphatia instead of frantically jumping in with my littany of the negative aspects when I feel some pro-Alphatia author has ignored them, thus expressing almost blind dislike. But right now, as I said before, each of us has our role in the little drama that is the MML, but it doesn't provide a "shades of grey" portrayal of any nation. Just a cacaphony of voices expressing various sharply-different opinions. I hope someday things will be different, thus these threads. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:38:37 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: re Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > < of a foreigner being a member of a secret circle. The Alfheim ambassador > is a 1st circle Dracologist.>> > > Probably faked his way in as an Erewanian . . . little did they know. > Well, again, there's Geriynd in Ierendi, too - but the fact that people can "fake their way in" shows some of the possibilities, doesn't it? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Prince Kol: Black and White? In-Reply-To: <200001211505.KAA32084@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > sense that Humanoids were capable beings in and of their own right. Kol > should be a Kobold. The Shadow Elves have their places in the sun, > elsewhere. Yes. Sunburned and blind. (Place in the sun, shadow elves, aw forget it...) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? In-Reply-To: <200001211538.KAA11177@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > results end up less than good. Alignment is (in my mind, anyway) more > > about how you believe, not how competent you are in enforcing your > > beliefs, so LG for Stefan probably isn't far off. > > > Alignment isn't self-image; alignment is actions. Ah, see this is where we're differing. To me, alignment is intent. If a PC kills an unarmed man walking down the street, that's evil. If I kill an unarmed man walking down the street on his way to assassinate the King with a fireball spell, that's not so evil. If I overthrow the evil King of a nation and free his subjects, that's good. If I do it so that I can become an evil King myself, that's not so good. Sure in either one I can justify or rationalize my actions, but it's not the actions that make an individual good or evil, but the intent behind the actions. You can be the most virtuous paladin in the land, but if you're incompetent, you can hurt a lot of people. Does this make you EVIL, not in my mind. Stupid maybe, but not evil. > Most evil types (except > cardboard-cuttout snidely-whiplash types) don't go around saying to > themselves "I'm evil, lets see what villany I can unleash today." They see > their actions as perfectly appropriate, perfectly normal, rationalizing > them however they do. Behavior determines alignment, not beliefs. Or > everyone would be "good" or at least "neutral" because hardly anyone sees > their own actions as wicked. Anyhow, I just wanted to add that part into > the debate mix. It's not what the person believes in himself, but the intent behind his actions. If he intends to cause harm, that's evil. If he intends to further his own ends at the expense of others, that's evil. If he plans to sacrifice his own position for the benefit of others, that's good. This is why I see Stefan as mostly good, with neutral tendancies. He is looking out for his people, and he is trying hard to do the "right thing." Just because what he sees as the "right thing" doesn't always turn out to be right doesn't mean that he is actively trying to be evil, it just slides him more toward Lawful Neutral (remember the talk about being lucky, not wise. That's where this fits. He wants to do the right thing, but can't always tell what it should be. That's dumb, not evil.) > As for Stefan: well, your assertion that "LG for Stefan probably isn't far > off" tends to prove my point that things are portrayed in "black" and > "white" terms. Can I just insert a rant against the 9-point alignment grid here? That's what is really causing this. Like I said, LG with neutral tendancies is probably as good as you can get without abandoning the alignment grid altogether. > > > > Actually, the Elves are quite bad for Stefan, IMHO, since there are a lot > > of them and they aren't necessarily happy with their lot. > > > So far they haven't been portrayed that way too much. Admitedly the MA adds > in a few troublemakers, but it's not like they're "quite bad for Stefan" - > on balance they've been a positive boon for him, and it's very certain that > they won't do anything that's quite bad for Stefan or for Karameikos - the > worst they'll do is wave a friendly goodby when they go back to > Alfheim-Aengmor. They certainly aren't going to raise holy cain in > Karameikos and try to secceed. Sorry, I was wrong here. That should be: The elves SHOULD be bad for Stefan. I agree that they aren't portrayed that way, but they SHOULD be. > > > all sorts Alphatian refugees settle in Karameikos, > > > > And this is a good thing? > > > It's been portrayed so far as nothing but. Everyone gets along in > Karameikos like long-lost chummers, it's almost as if Thyphatia became a > reality in Karameikos. Again, I apologize. I mean that the Alphatians in Karameikos SHOULD be a problem for Stefan, and a big one at that. In fact, following Wrath Stefan should really be on the verge of a civil war, and when he dies his daughter should be picking up the pieces. (I'm still working my way through the Mystaran Net Almanacs, so I haven't seen everything that's been done with Karameikos yet.) > perhaps - that isn't the point I'm trying to make here). Again, one could > say that they were portrayed in dark and sinister terms before, and now > they are portrayed in bright and shining terms now, so the "average" is > grey, but I'd say that's incorrect, because vacilating from one extreme to > the other does not make for a "shades of grey" world. Unless the vacillation is one of different people giving differing viewpoints. An Ethengar talking about "evil Heldanners" and a Thyatian talking about "noble Heldannic Knights" is, in my mind, a shade of grey. > The HKs can and should actually believe in what they do, and others should > hold varying opinions of the. That's different - that would be more akin to > "shades of grey", and certainly a step forward from either their portrayal > in the Princess Ark series & JA or in the "Timeline of the Heldannic > Knights". Yup, but the 9-point Alignment grid ends up being the downfall of this because you HAVE to label people "good" or "evil" which are loaded words. As soon as you saddle someone with one of these, he's marked. The Heldanners can't be good and evil, you have to pick one. (That's not how I run my games, but that is how most published AD&D material from EVERY world ends up). > He never really does anything but sit in Kelvin and brood, though. At least > not in "the materiel" - neither the published nor the MAs. That just makes > him discontented, not a villian or a hero to anyone. Yeah, I know. I always thought he made a good villain though. (Must separate published material from my own campaign...) > > I agree whole-heartedly. Plus, on the net, we have an opportunity to do > > something that TSR couldn't. Part of what makes a shades of grey work > are > > differing opinions about events and ideas. If we have Thyatis-lovers, > > Thyatis-haters, Alphatia-lovers and haters, Karameikos lovers and haters, > > etc. > > > Though I'd argue that it doesn't make for a "shades of grey" world if > folks always protray "their favorite" in positive terms and "their disliked > nations" in utterly negative terms - again what we get is two colors, sharp > black and sharp white. Ah, but if we have TWO Thyatian "gazetteers," one from the perception of a Thyatian and one from the perception of a Ylari, would that be a shade of grey? Or if a Karameikan gazetteer were written in character by a Traladaran, a Thyatian, a Callarii and an Alphatian with each of their differing viewpoints, would that be a shade of grey? Or do you mean that the objective stuff from the DM's perspective should be more grey? > Mixing them together might make grey on average, but > that is an inapt comparison because well-roundedness is absent. Take me for > an example - me portraying Thyatis positively and Alphatia negatively in > counterpoise to folks who do the reverse doesn't really result in a > balanced portrayal overall, does it? I don't think it has. I think I see what you're getting at, which is a more objective portrayal from a DM's perspective (please correct me if I'm wrong). You aren't going to stop the "in character" stuff from being subjective, and really it would be artificial to. I would agree, though, that the DM's stuff should be fairly objective. In fact, thinking about it right now it seems that the problem began in the TSR stuff when the "nations" became the heroes instead of the people from the nations. I think that this might have been during the Wrath or shortly before, but when things started moving at a "national" level and people began backing a particular nation, things like this will happen. > some pro-Alphatia author has ignored them, thus expressing almost blind > dislike. But right now, as I said before, each of us has our role in the > little drama that is the MML, but it doesn't provide a "shades of grey" > portrayal of any nation. Just a cacaphony of voices expressing various > sharply-different opinions. I hope someday things will be different, thus > these threads. I think I agree with you, James, but human nature is going to take over as long as people have their "favorite" nations. I plan on being careful to distinguish between in character writings, where the opinions and beliefs of the character writing hold sway (like the journal entries I'm working up for my players about Karameikos) and the objective stuff, which SHOULD, in an ideal world, stay as objective as possible. Right now I'm working on summaries of each nation in the "Old World" (to use the Almanac parlance) that are like the summaries for the Hollow World nations in that boxed set. These are for my own benefit, as I'd like to have short write-ups to look at when planning adventures or to give to players when they are making up characters. Now I'm going to be sure to keep these as objective as possible, and hopefully I won't slant them too much towards my personal preferences for (or against) particular nations. (Although, the nations I like tend to get the short end, since lots of bad stuff happens there. Nations like Ethengar, that I don't particularly care one way or another for, tend to have fairly happy lives since I don't do much with them ;) BTW: Thanks for this discussion everyone. As a newcomer, I've been feeling my way around the list and I think I'm beginning to see a little bit of how things tick around here. Thanks. Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:33:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Prince Kol: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy Morris ha scritto: > On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > sense that Humanoids were capable beings in and of their own right. Kol > > should be a Kobold. The Shadow Elves have their places in the sun, > > elsewhere. > > Yes. Sunburned and blind. > > (Place in the sun, shadow elves, aw forget it...) 'Hey, this is not Sarcastic Mystara part Three...is it?' Iulius Sergius Scaevola Comedian of the XXth Cohort Uh...I meant 'Captain', yes, 'Captain'...I'm a Captain...I'm a Captain... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:46:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Right now I'm working on summaries of each nation in the "Old World" (to > use the Almanac parlance) that are like the summaries for the Hollow World > nations in that boxed set. These are for my own benefit, as I'd like to > have short write-ups to look at when planning adventures or to give to > players when they are making up characters. Now I'm going to be sure to > keep these as objective as possible, and hopefully I won't slant them too > much towards my personal preferences for (or against) particular nations. > (Although, the nations I like tend to get the short end, since lots of bad > stuff happens there. Nations like Ethengar, that I don't particularly > care one way or another for, tend to have fairly happy lives since I don't > do much with them ;) > > BTW: Thanks for this discussion everyone. As a newcomer, I've been > feeling my way around the list and I think I'm beginning to see a little > bit of how things tick around here. Thanks. > > Jeremy I am particularly interested in your portrayal of Karameikos. I think you should point out in your work the problems the Alphatians and elves cause to the life in Karameikos...and then send it out to the MML. Maybe more people could get interesting ideas for you. And it's always good to read some greyish stuff! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis Oh, I know. It's hard to tell when I'm in character and when not. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:46:06 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ah, see this is where we're differing. To me, alignment is intent. > Oh, god. To be precise, alignment is intent plus actions. Alignment is not intent alone - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." The end does not justify the means for truely "good" characters. It's a matter of philosophical depth. "he intended well" is not a good enough excuse in and of itself. I have characters that do that, but I wouldn't call them good - the fact that they intend benificial outcomes does not excuse every action taken to reach that end. > > It's not what the person believes in himself, but the intent behind his > actions. If he intends to cause harm, that's evil. > Again, few people go around saying "I intend to cause harm." Most go around saying "I intend to cause harm to my enemies, so that the folks I like will benifit." This goes for Ludwig as well as for Stefan - when Stefan commands that harm be done to goblins infesting the Dymrak forest, he does so for a benificial outcome. Whether that outcome is truely benificial depends not on his intension, but in 1) how it is done (actions) and 2) why it is done (is there a rational, good reason for going after those goblins, or is he just doing it for his own enrichment?) - Ludwig's intent is to benifit people he likes and harm people he doesn't care about: his actions and motives make him evil, because he has no justification for how he behaves except that he can (the strong siezing from the weak - fittest rule, weaker obey). One hopes Stefan's intentions are guided by better motives & justifications AND that they are brought to fruition through just actions - intent is not enough in and of itself. > Just because what he sees as the "right thing" doesn't always turn out to > be right doesn't mean that he is actively trying to be evil, it just > Again, most people don't wake up with the intention "I'm going to actively try and be evil today." Not even the badest of the badguys do that, I'd say. Well, ok maybie a few very exceptional ones, but I doubt Bargle & Ludwig's conversation consists of "what evil should we commit today, Bargle?" "Well, we could kill people just to watch them die, that would be pretty evil." "I don't know, that's a bit old hat. We need to commit some new evil to maintain our reps as wicked fellows." - They don't conciously intend to do evil, they *are* evil; their outlook & behavior makes them evil, not their intentions. A person in the D&D alignment scheme behaves lawfully because they have a lawful personality and as a result commits lawful actions, not because they intend to be lawful. Similarly for chaotics - they are that way because they behave that way, not because they wake up intending to create chaos, their personailty and actions just redound to that effect. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:10:49 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ah, but if we have TWO Thyatian "gazetteers," one from the perception of a > Thyatian and one from the perception of a Ylari, would that be a shade of > grey? Or if a Karameikan gazetteer were written in character by a > Traladaran, a Thyatian, a Callarii and an Alphatian with each of their > differing viewpoints, would that be a shade of grey? Or do you mean that > the objective stuff from the DM's perspective should be more grey? > I mean the latter - the "objective" stuff. Most of what is written, whether IC or OOC, is intended to be the "factually correct portrayal," at least the stuff that appears here. It might be colored by attitudinal perspectives, and that does add some ambiguity into it. BUT the "objective perspective" "DM's History Of" this or that tends towards definate conclusions. As do actual "Events" in the PWAs, JA, or MA/NAs - it doesn't much matter what Favonius Viator says about Thyatis, when "everyone knows" that it is FALSE, based on the "objective" events that happen in Thyatis that year, that Thyatis has an annual slave revolt throughout the PWAs & JA, and is "objectively" a totalitarian despotate because of Eusebius' legislation & activities (Nero-like fires, Caligula-like backround, Stalin-like purges et al). It doesn't much matter what Vivianna Romanones says about Alphatia or NACE when "everyone knows" that Favius Vern is a swell fellow, Eriadna the soul of enlightened tollerance, the Jennits happy and contented under the control of the New Alphatian Empire now that the "good, kind, enlightend" Alphatians got rid of the "few bad apples". The "objective" facts (which are not objective in any sense of the word but are intended as the "true facts of Mystara, the real events that happened this year, which should tell you how each of these places is") is what creates the attitudes and impressions. Stefan *could* and perhaps *should* have problems, especially integrating huge numbers of refugees into his lands, but he *Doesn't* - Karameikos is in a golden age, based on the "objective" reality. It *should* take years for someone to learn how to cast spells, but the "objective" events disprove that. Karameikos perhaps should not have such close ties to NACE, but the objective reality is that they are close buddies. Why? Because, like the WDL, their affiliation and affinity for each other is intended to demonstrate that both nations are such swell dudes, so they would naturally cooperate since they share the same love of being good, just, egalitarian, and kind to dumb animals. Karameikos distances itself from the homeland of its ruling class to demonstrate that the obverse is true, just as you won't see Bilbo Baggins being patted on the back by Sauron any time soon. Propaganda polemics don't create a "shade of grey" outlook when "the objective truth" shows them to be nothing but empty rhetoric. Similarly, me saying favorable things about Thyatis and other folks saying disfavorable things about Thyatis doesn't demonstrate a "shade of grey" outlook, it demonstrates disagreement, nothing more. > > I think I see what you're getting at, which is a more objective portrayal > from a DM's perspective (please correct me if I'm wrong). You aren't > going to stop the "in character" stuff from being subjective, and really > it would be artificial to. I would agree, though, that the DM's stuff > should be fairly objective. > Right, the in character stuff can be whatever it should be, but the DM stuff, the "Events," the "facts on the ground" should be more balanced and even-handed, at least in most cases. Sure, Mystara should perhaps have some dark villian areas since it's sometimes fun to be able to be a heroic champion and know that you're doing right opposing Hule or Denagoth, but that's, IMO, become an across the board thing rather than an exceptional thing. One can easily make a list (objective) of which areas are intended to be "good" realms and which are portrayed as "the bad guys for the good guys to be in opposition to" - and just about every country, on the surface (and HW Alphatia) could be so catagorized. Luckily, the HW hasn't been completely ruined in this fashion yet (give us time, once we turn our attentions to it, watch out) - sure, the Azcans are "bad" as are the Shaltenalfen, and Alphatia is the "benign policeman making sure that badguys don't exploit the HWers, those nasty non-Alphatians." But so far Milenia, Nithia, etc - you can't pigeon-hole them yet. But, as I said - just give us time. Once more attention is given them (and luckily the PWAs didn't spend a lot of time on any of the HW areas), watch out. > > In fact, thinking about it right now it seems that the problem began in > the TSR stuff when the "nations" became the heroes instead of the people > from the nations. I think that this might have been during the Wrath or > shortly before, but when things started moving at a "national" level and > people began backing a particular nation, things like this will happen. > Yep. Or, rather, "exceptional" characters (Haldemar, "Terari", for example) began to be percieved as the "cultural norm" rather than exceptional. Then the rest became history, and yes, WotI helped things along a bit - though I'd argue that WotI managed to not portray either side as entirely just or entirely unjust (that came later, in the PWAs, and not much in the 1st one though starting a bit then, with the "Jafili incident") - but WotI sure ended up forcing us, as gamers & fans of Mystara, to "take sides" to perhaps a greater degree than before - if you were for Ixion, you were against Rad. If you were for Thyatis, you were against Alphatia (I was for Ixion and simoultaniously for Thyatis - I never claimed to be consistent). Before it was easier to like both for different reasons. Afterwords, well people "took sides" to a greater degree in part because they didn't like what "happened to" the nation that had become theirs (didn't like Alphatia sinking, or didn't like Thyatis getting creamed, or whatever) - that lives on, and the PWAs tended only to re-enforce that (as Alphatiaphiles got some redemption in the creation of "New Alphatia" on the surface and the positive portrayal of HW Alphatia as a "benevolent guardian" and as the Thyatiaphiles dug in their heels in reaction to the fecal sandwitch "their" nation was repeatedly handed). It's tended to destroy a sense of "shades of grey" portrayal because it's become an "either you're for us, or against us" thing. The same with WDL nations & Karameikos - they were cast to an even greater degree as the "bulwark of goodness" against the "tides of evil and chaos" (Hule & Thyatis) - thus tending to downplay or destroy a sense that they are nations with vices as well as virtues; they became the "Good old nation's club." > > BTW: Thanks for this discussion everyone. As a newcomer, I've been > feeling my way around the list and I think I'm beginning to see a little > bit of how things tick around here. Thanks. > Welcome to the list, btw. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Stefan Karamiekos: The Truth is Out There? >Actually, it's not Thanatos either, that's just what the Outer >Beings want you to think :) > >gordon :-) Methinks young Gordon doth know too much.... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:25:37 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul Benfield Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My vote, has to be Thyatis, such potential for adventure. I like the parallels with the Dark Sun setting (gladiators, politics, ambition). Also a great variety of settings within one empire. Paul Benfield ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroletti To: Sent: 18 January 2000 22:16 Subject: [MYSTARA] Poll: What is your preferred nation? > Hey! > Just 6 votes until now! > I need 176 more!! I hope I will not resort to invent the votes myself, > or to > ask you PERSONALLY. (A menace? Well, typical Alphatian style...hey > hey hey!! Stalker!!! Stop it with that delayed fire balls!!! And look! > No > votes for Alphatia, ha!ha!ha!) > > 2 Darokin > 1 Thyatis (guess who?) > 1 Rockhome > 1 Karameikos > 1 Glantri > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:06:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: The Time is Near... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Calamity Star is coming.... Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:07:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > > Sure, theoretically it's an agreement between > > "allied" nations for mutual benefit, but it > doesn't > > always work that way in practice. There are alot > of > > competeing agendas under the surface. > > > Are there? Where? Examples, please. Awww, now, see? This is why I was hesitant to bring it up. I really don't want to turn this into a discussion of RW politics. But, anyone who thinks that NATO is just one big happy family where everyone gets along should probably #1 watch/read the news and #2 talk to someone from Europe (not to put our European members on the spot here). Sure, here in the US we think NATO is swell and everybody loves it. But the reality is that in many member countries, there is a good deal of resentment toward NATO policy - in some cases from governments as well as segments of the population. Of course, the bottom line is that all members think they are better off when all is said and done by being memebers as opposed to not being affiliated. Otherwise they would, for lack of a better word, quit. My main point is this, some people like it, some people don't, but the "majority consensus" is that its the most beneficial relationship available. > But they all reach a mutually-benificial concensus > decision in the end. > The fact that the WDL can exist at all is what I'm > getting at - it shows > the clubishness of all these nations. Rather than > having rivalries that > would prevent such a widespread alliance from > forming, such an alliance > became almost inevitable because they were all > friends to begin with who > would always lend each other a helping hand when > their good neighbors in > need, so the treaty forming the WDL was a mere > formality, recognizing what > already existed. Was it realistic in the first place > that everyone (well, > not everyone - there are the designated pasty > nations for the WDL to preen > and self-congradulate themselves for not being, > which are not members) in > what is supposed to be a mideval/renaissance world? > Sure there were > alliances IRL in that era, but they tended to be > temporary alliances of > convenience, not mutual admiration societies like > the WDL. Well, to be honest, magic isn't realistic from a RW in a medieval/renaissance setting. My point is that sometimes we have to fudge a little. The are many anachrostic concepts in Mystara (or any setting for that matter). I think the idea is to just take the ideas and tweak them 'til they fit and (hopefully) won't upset the whole balance of everything. The concept of an organization such as the WDL seems reasonable to me as long as it is hadnled well. I think it could come about due to the fact that the member nations all had a fear of not being able to defend againgst larger nations. Remember, this is a post-war environment. People aren't always completely rational under those circumstances. Realistically, was Thyatis a threat to any of those nations? Not likely. But Hule certainly was, not to mention all the humanoids pouring out of the crater and then Alfheim just suddenly up and went blah. Sometimes it's good to have allies when you're not sure what's gonna happen next. Of course, this goes back to my comment above. Just 'cuz you're allies doesn't mean that your always gonna agree on everything nor will you be allies forever. Germany/Italy/Russia circa 1939, anybody? Anyway, just some counterpoints... auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:16:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:17:34 Aaron E Nowack wrote: >You asked for it... I'll be deluging this list with the Darokin stuff I >have as soon as I can type it up and flesh it out and remove major canon >inconsitancies. > >Maybe I'll even try and actually write down my masterpiece Siege of >Darokin City adventure... Siego of Darokin City as in the Master's attempt to invade in spring 1006 AC ?? WOW! I would really appreciate that, since that is the *exact* time and place my campaign is at right now - and we'll be playing again next thursday (but no rush, obviously). - Jens Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:05:02 +0100 Reply-To: Tomas Sanchez Sender: Mystara From: Tomas Sanchez Organization: Mystara Mailing List Subject: Re: Moorkroft - The True Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit De: Andrew Theisen > At some undisclosed point in the future, JBM crosses Moriamis, > who then sends him back in time. At some point in the past, his > hatred of elvenkind leads him to the Sylvan Realm, where he > decides to make his kingdom (being stuck in the past with no > way home). Hmm. Couldn't be the one who banished him to the past an elf ? John, mad of rage, could have assumed the purpose of exterminating all of them before they even leaved the Sylvan Realm so his hated enemy would not be born neither him be exiled. What do you think of it ? ------------------------------------------------ Name: Tomas Sanchez. Nickname: Rick Deckard E-mail address: deckard@encomix.es ICQ# 9190040 Home Page: Coming soon at a server across Europe ------------------------------------------------ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:52:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Siege of Darokin (was: New Darokinian Merchant Spells) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:16:07 +0100 The Stalker writes: > -- > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:17:34 Aaron E Nowack wrote: > >You asked for it... I'll be deluging this list with the Darokin > stuff I > >have as soon as I can type it up and flesh it out and remove major > canon > >inconsitancies. > > > >Maybe I'll even try and actually write down my masterpiece Siege of > >Darokin City adventure... > > Siego of Darokin City as in the Master's attempt to invade in spring > 1006 AC ?? WOW! I would really appreciate that, since that is the > *exact* time and place my campaign is at right now - and we'll be > playing again next thursday (but no rush, obviously). I'll try... not likely though. This adventure took three months of work to get into a form that was playable for my group, and a lot of it is pretty campaign specifific, and won't be usable in anyone else's campaign (unless you happen to havew a recurring evil magic-user who fliesaround on a wyvern he likes to trick people into thinking is a red dragon too?) Siege is actually the cimax of the Master's campaign, for about a year game time and 6 adventures or so the campagn had centered around the invasion. I'll see what I can come up with though. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:05:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Iulius Sergius Scaevola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:19:13 Caroletti wrote: >The Stalker ha scritto: > >> - Okay 'Stalker', my young apprentice! The Thyatian enemy just gave us his entire history. It should now be an easy task for you to use THAT spell on him, since you have all the required information - so get to it! >> >> - Yes, Master Terari! ;) > >This really got me worried. Should I really continue my story, >my dear enemy? Well, naturally, my most unworthy adversary :) Nice to see that you respect the mighty magic of Alphatia, though - as a Thyatian you may be 'stiff-necked', but at least you're not stupid ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:18:07 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Stefan Karameikos: Black and White? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > --- James Ruhland wrote: > > > Sure, theoretically it's an agreement between > > > "allied" nations for mutual benefit, but it > > doesn't > > > always work that way in practice. There are alot > > of > > > competeing agendas under the surface. > > > > > Are there? Where? Examples, please. > > Awww, now, see? This is why I was hesitant to bring > it up. I really don't want to turn this into a > discussion of RW politics. > Oh, sorry - I should have been clearer. I don't care about the RW politics aspect. I definately don't want to turn this (or any other) thread into that: there are other lists and forums for people to discuss that. I was asking for examples of these "competing agendas under the surface" in the WDL (in Mystara, not the RW) - which PWA event or events have them competing against each other or having any sort of rivalry or friction? I don't need examples of that IRL, such examples abound. I'm asking for examples in Mystara. > > Well, to be honest, magic isn't realistic from a RW > in a medieval/renaissance setting. My point is that > sometimes we have to fudge a little. > I'm not saying everything in a fantasy has to be realistic - but it's sort of a cop-out to say "well, we have magic," and then dismiss the argument. Either we want a "black and white" Mysrara or we don't. Do we? Is that what you're saying? > > The concept of an organization such as the WDL seems > reasonable to me as long as it is hadnled well. > Has it been? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. In-Reply-To: <200001211748.MAA20770@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Ah, see this is where we're differing. To me, alignment is intent. > > > Oh, god. > To be precise, alignment is intent plus actions. Alignment is not intent > alone - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." The end does not > justify the means for truely "good" characters. It's a matter of > philosophical depth. "he intended well" is not a good enough excuse in and > of itself. I have characters that do that, but I wouldn't call them good - > the fact that they intend benificial outcomes does not excuse every action > taken to reach that end. Yes, I see what you mean and actually I agree with you to a point. However, you can't always equate the result of the action with the alignment of the individual commiting the action. Specifically, an incompetent Lawful person might bring about chaos while trying to uphold the law. I may have a paladin who lives by very Lawful ideals, who liberates a group of people from an evil overlord and subsequently brings chaos and anarchy to the land. Is the paladin chaotic? His actions caused chaos, but that wasn't his intent. Competence does not determine alignment. I do, however, agree that people who use the "ends justify the means" outlook on life quickly slide towards the evil end of the spectrum. Most of these people end up some flavor of Neutral in the games I've run. Remember, this came up because of Stefan's alignment. I actually see Stefan as trying to uphold the precepts of Law and Goodness, and doing okay at upholding the Law, but not so good at picking up the good (which is why the Lawful Good->Lawful Neutral alignment seems right to me). > > Just because what he sees as the "right thing" doesn't always turn out to > > be right doesn't mean that he is actively trying to be evil, it just > > > Again, most people don't wake up with the intention "I'm going to actively > try and be evil today." Not even the badest of the badguys do that, I'd > say. Well, ok maybie a few very exceptional ones, but I doubt Bargle & > Ludwig's conversation consists of "what evil should we commit today, > Bargle?" "Well, we could kill people just to watch them die, that would be > pretty evil." "I don't know, that's a bit old hat. We need to commit some > new evil to maintain our reps as wicked fellows." - They don't conciously > intend to do evil, they *are* evil; their outlook & behavior makes them > evil, not their intentions. Hehe. Snidley Bargle twisting his mustache. I COULD argue that both Bargle and Ludwig are portrayed exactly this way, but I won't because I don't use them this way. Ludwig is evil because he does believe that the ends justify the means - there is no depth he can sink to that is too low for him. Stefan, on the other hand, tries to look out for others welfare. He doesn't always succeed, but this doesn't make him evil, maybe neutral, but more likely just unwise. > A person in the D&D alignment scheme behaves lawfully because they have a > lawful personality and as a result commits lawful actions, not because they > intend to be lawful. Similarly for chaotics - they are that way because > they behave that way, not because they wake up intending to create chaos, > their personailty and actions just redound to that effect. Yes, but in real life people commit all kinds of actions. If I had to catagorize the actions I commit on a daily basis, I'd end up with a long list of chaotic, lawful, good and evil actions (well, hopefully not a long list of evil ones, but you never know). Does this make me True Neutral? Neutral Good? (since, like I said, I'd hope there were fewer evil entries). This is why I dislike the 9-point alignment grid. I used to think it was cool when I was younger, but now I think it's a pain. The system is incredibly ill-defined, and I can only hope that 3rd Edition fixes it, but I'll believe it when I see it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:02:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Siege of Darokin (was: New Darokinian MerchantSpells) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:52:36 Aaron E Nowack wrote: > >I'll try... not likely though. This adventure took three months of work >to get into a form that was playable for my group, and a lot of it is >pretty campaign specifific, and won't be usable in anyone else's campaign >(unless you happen to havew a recurring evil magic-user who fliesaround >on a wyvern he likes to trick people into thinking is a red dragon too?) > >Siege is actually the cimax of the Master's campaign, for about a year >game time and 6 adventures or so the campagn had centered around the >invasion. > >I'll see what I can come up with though. Thanks! Actually, if it's any help, you can just post the ideas - though I rarely plan on it, I usually end up modifying the stuff I put the PCs through a *GREAT* deal before I use it (you probably wouldn't recognize the adventures I stole from Dungeon, modified, and then used). But, hey, no rush. Okay ? - Jens Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:17:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:32:00 Jeremy Morris wrote: >On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > >> > >> > Ah, see this is where we're differing. To me, alignment is intent. >> > >> Oh, god. >> To be precise, alignment is intent plus actions... (actual discussions snipped) AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH! I *HATE* ALIGNMENTS! ...and I *HATE* DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THEM! [Successfully casts Emotion (Friendship version) on himself] ehrm.. well.. that was.. better! Sorry for the outburst, but I'm also on DND-L and it seems that they go through endless essays on this very subject at least once every other week. And that is precisely why I *loathe* alignments: you can never agree on how they are supposed to be applied. I use them as the DM, but I've *FORBIDDEN* my players to use them - it's just causes more problems than it solves. Have people write up descriptions of the characters instead - it's a lot more insightful IMO. You can *NEVER* describe anybody within the rigid 9 categories system of AD&D or even the much broader 3-categories system of OD&D. I know that this is very much IMO, but I must say it: BAN ALIGNMENTS! (thanks - it was good to get it off my chest!) - Jens (aka The Stalker of Alphatia) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:44:57 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > the law. I may have a paladin who lives by very Lawful ideals, who > liberates a group of people from an evil overlord and subsequently brings > chaos and anarchy to the land. Is the paladin chaotic? His actions > caused chaos, but that wasn't his intent. Competence does not determine > alignment. > For one thing, one must first separate his actions from the actions of others. The fact that one of the people he freed goes on to commit all sorts of murders in a distant city, unbenownst to him, does not constitute an "action" of murder or aiding & abetting a murderer on his part. That was not easily forseeable. The counter-action, that he would say "if I would free these people from the overlord, they may go about and commit mayhem and crimes, therefore I should do nothing" would not exemplify the virtues of a paladin - those would be the rationalizations a neutral person might use. Intent does matter with regard to the consiquences of actions, which is why I said many things were important - not solely intent, but also not solely actions or beliefs. But the question then does arrise: once the Paladin learns that chaos and anarchy followed upon liberating the group of people, what is his response? What does he do (action) next when he learns of that? It is not nessissarily simply enough to say "I did not intend that result, so my hands are clean" - now he MIGHT not be able to do anything about it, at least not right away (if there is another priority that he needs to give his attention - and actions - to that is more important and consiquential). But he cannot simply say that because he didn't intend that outcome he owes nothing to it. > > Hehe. Snidley Bargle twisting his mustache. I COULD argue that both > Bargle and Ludwig are portrayed exactly this way, but I won't because I > don't use them this way. > That's true. They were probably bad examples for me to use in this instance. They do tend to prove my other point, though. > > Stefan, on the other hand, tries to look out for others welfare. He > doesn't always succeed, but this doesn't make him evil, maybe neutral, but > more likely just unwise. > Here we get into the realm of virtue, since intention I still maintain is not enough. I suppose I should recomend Aristotelianism to gamers (yes, I know that many folks find flaw with Aristotle himself, it isn't my point to get into the beliefs he held that we find objectionable. The framework is however, useful. If you don't like Aristotle himself, or find the translations of his writings unreadable, I'd recomend you check out Alisdair MacIntyre's "After Virtue" and "Who's Justice? Which Rationality?") Aristotle is IMO useful because the D&D and AD&D alignments are in part, intentionally or not, derived from them. One can ask "what is a boy scout" and one can give the list, "A Scout is. . ." - those are the Virtues of a Scout. Those Virtues guide intentions (or should) and actions. Note that each Virtue has two cooresponding Vices (lets take one that isn't doesn't have an obvious relationship to any of the alignments): a virtuous person might be thrifty. The co-responding vices are miserly and being a wastrel/spendthrift. What is a good Paladin? Well, for sure a good Paladin is concentious - therefore the consiquences of his or her actions matters to a Paladin, not just the intentions behind them. A Paladin won't lose his or her Paladinhood if things turn out unexpectedly, not as the Paladin intended. But if a Paladin finds out that negative consiquences resulted, that Paladin will do his or her best to repair the situation. But a good Paladin is also duitiful, and thus if another matter (as mentioned above) has priority, that Paladin will carry out that duity - but will not forget the other duty, the duty to repair the previous harm. What constitutes friendship? Does a good friend - no matter what his intentions - sell out his friend for personal advantage? The answer to that should be clear to anyone who has or is a friend of anyone else, and this is perhaps why Aaron Allston, who wrote the original Karameikos Gazeteer, wrote what he did about Stefan's actions in WotI. Nothing similar was ever written before about Stefan, nor anything so harsh since (except by me), nor is it likely that anyone will in the future. But irregardless of whether you think Stefanland was completely free, or autonomous, or whatever to Thyatis, Stefan was beholden to Thincol because they were supposedly friends. So Stefan's actions are characterized as "selling out [his] longtime allies" and as a "betrayal of his homeland". Again, except for this one event, nothing written about Stefan was or would ever again be so harsh a judgement laid upon him. But it is clear from his actions that he had behaved improperly, foresaking virtue, whatever his rationalizations and intentions were. Similarly, what are the Virtues that a good ruler embodies? A sense of justice? Wisdom? Is it just to replace long-standing relationships and promote one's own family members (nepotism) and friends (croniesm) to positions of authority, and then not supervise them properly, so that they are exploitive - remember, they are acting under the color of *your* authority - they derive their title and position, and their power, by the fact that you deputised them, they are your vassals and you are their leige. Is it wise to not pay attention to the events in your land, to let things reach the state that they did? Are responsibility and duity also Virtues of a good ruler? A concentious one (to name another Virtue)? If so, is one behaving as a good ruler when one lets someone else (the Hin) take care of a problem that is of your creation, and is your responsibility to solve? In these cases, however, Stefan was in effect absolved in the materiel (PWAs in this case) - he was given a free pass. And still portrayed (in K:KoA) as if he were a good and even heroic King. > > Yes, but in real life people commit all kinds of actions. If I had to > catagorize the actions I commit on a daily basis, I'd end up with a long > list of chaotic, lawful, good and evil actions (well, hopefully not a long > list of evil ones, but you never know). > Some would say that every time I write and send a post to the MML, I am commiting an evil act, so what does that make me? 8-)~ IRL is another matter, IMO. But I have in the past argued that D&D should just get rid of the alignment system completely. Other games don't have it, its sort of a holdover and an anachronism (useful for some spells). But I think it doesn't really affect things - in games that don't have it, we can pretty much tell who we admire as virtuous and who we dislike. Neither Dunkelzahan, nor Ehran the Scribe, nor Harlequin, nor "Hecate," nor Mr Darke, nor Lofwyr were assigned "alignments" in Shadowrun, but that doesn't stop people from forming impressions of them, nor does it stop people from behaving heroicially or not, virtuously or not, in the Shadowrun universe. But it does, IMO, lead to some more complex characters, at least for some of the more developed ones - they have their pitfalls (Dunky was a manipulative son of a bitch, but I still loved him). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:08:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Brown Subject: Shades of Grey (was: Stefan Karameikos, balck or white?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Ruhland wrote: > Oh, sorry - I should have been clearer. I don't care > about the RW politics > aspect. I definately don't want to turn this (or any > other) thread into > that: there are other lists and forums for people to > discuss that. Sorry, my bad. I just "assumed" - and we all know happens when you do that. So please accept my apology, folks, for my borderline "rant" concerning NATO. It wasn't my intention to promote (or even discuss) any RW political views. > I was asking for examples of these "competing > agendas under the surface" in > the WDL (in Mystara, not the RW) - which PWA event > or events have them > competing against each other or having any sort of > rivalry or friction? This is where I need to back off a bit. I should clarify that I am not trying to praise (or criticize) the way the WDL has been handled anywhere. As I alluded to previously, I'm not especially familiar with many of the specific events in the PWA's, JA, or MA's. My only point is that Darokin, Karameikos, and The Five Shires (for instance) all have different perspectives. The Gazetteers for each show quite clearly that these three nations are unique in goals, political agendas, needs, desires, and philosophies. Once again, if the WDL is portrayed to gloss that over and create one homogenous society then, well, what can I say? Chuck it. As I've already stated, the Gazetteers are the gospel to me and if later products illogically contradict them then you know which one I'm gonna stick with. Of course, the Gaz's have their share of flaws, so *logical* improvements are always welcome. I just think that the "concept" of the WDL is reasonable if it is portrayed as a mutual beneficial pact with underlying tension. That's all. > I'm not saying everything in a fantasy has to be > realistic - but it's sort > of a cop-out to say "well, we have magic," and then > dismiss the argument. Sorry. My turn to clarify what I meant but didn't really say. My point was that from the get-go we are already dealing with something "based" on the RW medieval/renaissance setting yet bending the rules to accomodate something not entirely "real". OK, not "real" at all... but you get my point. Anyway, I wasn't trying to "dismiss" the argument, I was trying to make a counterpoint. Sometimes the RW equivalent isn't necessarily the bottom line. Alot of the poltics of the KW and Mystara are based more on current RW examples as opposed to the medieval/renaissance equivalents. Partially, it's because we live in, well, a modern society and that's the easiest for us to identify with. But, then again, attempting to find a good compromise between the current and historical equivalents is important as well as maintaing play-balance (it is a game afterall). Wow, that was excessive. My whole treatise there is really only a response to the statement about RW cultures of that time-period not having alliances in the same sense as the WDL (or NATO). Geez, talk about overkill... can you say mosquito with a sledgehammer? > Either we want a "black and white" Mysrara or we > don't. Do we? Is that what > you're saying? Nope. Maybe some people do. If so, that's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative (and yours as well) to disregard it and move on in the way that we feel suits our own campaigns best. I prefer shades of gray. When I see something that I feel is "black" or "white" then I'll either change it (for my own campaign) or ignore it. But that's just me... > > The concept of an organization such as the WDL > seems > > reasonable to me as long as it is hadnled well. > > > Has it been? Dunno. See above. "Let me esplain. No. There is too much. Let me sum up.": IMO, gray is good. If I post something, I'll try to make it "gray". If others disagree, they should feel free to change it to suit their own needs or ignore it. If someone else wants to stick with black n white - OK. If someone else posts something I don't consider "gray", I'll either modify it or ignore it. Well, that's it. My Mystaqra philosophy summed up in five sentences. Pretty impressive, no? auf wiedersehen, Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:56:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. In-Reply-To: <200001212147.QAA23587@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Stefan, on the other hand, tries to look out for others welfare. He > > doesn't always succeed, but this doesn't make him evil, maybe neutral, > but > > more likely just unwise. > solve? In these cases, however, Stefan was in effect absolved in the > materiel (PWAs in this case) - he was given a free pass. And still > portrayed (in K:KoA) as if he were a good and even heroic King. Okay, NOW I think I see where you're coming from (I hope, anyway) and I'll even agree. I personally think that Stefan is gets off way to easily in the printed materials, since the level of discord in his Kingdom should have quadrupled since AC 1000. However, I still contend that his "goodness" and his "competence" are two separate things, although the examples you gave that I snipped are good arguments for at the very least a slip (or a tendency towards) Neutrality for the good King. (BTW: Have I mentioned that I dislike alignments? And have I mentioned that I think alignment is a very dynamic thing? People aren't born good or evil necessarily, they become good or evil as time passes. People can shift up and down the chart in various directions over time, at least in my campaigns). > Some would say that every time I write and send a post to the MML, I am > commiting an evil act, so what does that make me? 8-)~ Evil or misguided? (BTW: Where is "Neutral Misguided" on the alignment chart? ;) > IRL is another matter, IMO. But I have in the past argued that D&D should > just get rid of the alignment system completely. Other games don't have it, I tend to agree. At the very least, I'd like to go back to the simple 3-point alignment grid, but without the overtones of Good to Lawful and Evil to Chaotic that are in the old Basic set. In the other games I run (Deadlands mainly, TORG occasionally) the players just pick personalities for their characters and run them, and that works fine. Unfortunately, I'll be stuck with the alignment system for a while with the next D&D game I run, since the people I'm running it for are old-guard 1e D&D types who are willing to experiment with 3e when it comes out. I'll want to keep their culture shock to a minimum, I think (and "my" Mystara will be enough of a culture shock for a group used to cutting down orcs because they're "Eeeevil"). Ethical question under the alignment system: You are a Lawful Good paladin, fighting an "evil" bugbear. After you slay the bugbear, his family huddles around his body in tears, hurling epithets at you for his death. As a "Lawful Good" paladin do you: 1.) Apologize profusely to the family, pay whatever restitution that you can and take it upon yourself to make sure that the family is taken care of in the future. 2.) Slay the other evil bugbears for the additional experience points. I know which one the rulebooks usually encourage, and that's why I really dislike the alignment system. Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:43:14 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Shades of Grey (was: Stefan Karameikos, balck or white?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My only point is that Darokin, Karameikos, and The > Five Shires (for instance) all have different > perspectives. The Gazetteers for each show quite > clearly that these three nations are unique in goals, > political agendas, needs, desires, and philosophies. > Ahh, but even the Gazetteers "tell us" that they are friendly with each other. That was part of my point: they are not portrayed as international rivals, dispite whatever differences they have in philosophies and political agendas (and I would argue that these are portrayed as being rather slight) - thus the WDL just formalized their already "we're a happy family" relationship. But lets get to the *real* bottom line: Is that FUN? Does that make the KW a more or less fun & exciting place to game in? Sure, peace and friendship between nations is all well and good IRL (but it's still a good thing we don't have more of it) - but in a game world? In a gameworld where conflict is the source of adventure oportunities (and note again that conflict does not nessissarily equal all out war or even open warfare of a low intensity kind - conflict can take many forms, but one of those forms is not happy kindred relations and concord). > I just think that the "concept" of the WDL is > reasonable if it is portrayed as a mutual beneficial > pact with underlying tension. That's all. > I don't see any underlying tension portrayed at all, not until we get to the MAs, and even then they only go so far. But at least they do something, so I guess I can say they are an improvement of sorts. > > Wow, that was excessive. My whole treatise there is > really only a response to the statement about RW > cultures of that time-period not having alliances in > the same sense as the WDL (or NATO). Geez, talk about > overkill... can you say mosquito with a sledgehammer? > Sorry about that if you felt it was overkill, but otherwise I end up having to repeat myself more than I already do (which is a lot, I admit), so I covered as much of the topic as I felt I could in the previous post. > > Well, that's it. My Mystaqra philosophy summed up in > five sentences. Pretty impressive, no? > Yah, I was just telling someone else today who has a similar attitude that I wish I could emulate her and not be so hung up on some of this, but For some reason such stuff as the PWA timeline and the probably-soon-to-be-canon MAs are still important to me, still maintain the grip of an atmosphere of "you can have any Mystara you want but this is the real one" - that I admit being my psychic hurdle to overcome, but I just can't make the leap. You've got a better attitude towards "canon or not canon, who cares, so long as you like it - fix what you don't, and ignore the rest" - in theory I completely agree with you, but "in my heart, I know they're right" - even when they're obviously wrong, the "real" Mystara "seems" to be the one from the PWAs/JA/MAs - I guess that's why I struggle so hard to convince people of my point of view, because I'm just not able to make the break with other people's versions (which get much more support from PWAs et al). *sigh* My problem, I should do better to emulate your attitude, but as I said I just can't make the mental and emotional breakthrough. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:59:22 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alignment Dialogue. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Evil or misguided? (BTW: Where is "Neutral Misguided" on the alignment > chart? ;) > I think there's a Dragon Magazine article that discusses Player (as opposed to Character) alignments. I'll have to dig that out again, then I'll let you know where I fall. 8-)~ > > I'll want to keep their culture shock to a minimum, I think (and "my" > Mystara will be enough of a culture shock for a group used to cutting down > orcs because they're "Eeeevil"). > Yes, it's much better to cut them down for the sheer pleasure of it 8-)~~~~ > Ethical question under the alignment system: > Or 3) Join 'em in looting the nearest town as a way of venting rage over the death of a loved one. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:00:32 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 10:54:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, BoBoII@AOL.COM writes: << A recent post in this debate began as follows: "Sir Elcalear Dracul, Knight of the Kingdom of Karameikos, Reserve General of the Royal Karameikan Army, Dracologist of the Fourth Circle, Graduate of the Great School of Magic (Glantron), Licensed Necromorph Exterminator, replies to the good Captain" While you are more than able to but anyone you want in your campaign in the GSoM, what do folks think in general about the difficulty of getting in? I didn't think that every mage in Glantri went there, that there were still quite a few who got trained at home, "hedge style" or in the respective "State Universities" of their home Principality. Also, what are the barriers to foriegners getting in? And if admitted, would an outsider stand a chance of being admitted into a secret society? I'm not picking on the chracter . . .go for it . . . but in general how is this handled in List campaigns? >> You may not want to pick on this character, but I do. Any foreigner with enough cash and magical talent and no obvious anti-Glantrian associations should be able to get into the Great School of Magic -- but he will never even find out about any of the secret crafts unless he shows that he can keep his mouth shut about them. They are supposed to be *secret* crafts, after all. But I would agree that most mages (inside as well as outside of Glantri) are trained somewhere besides the Great School of Magic, just as most college students in the real world go someplace besides Harvard. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:15:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 1:51:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << I myself just completely and absolutely suck at coming up with actual spells of any sort. I have some vague notions of some things that might be "Thyatian-specific" type magics, but even those are largely cribbed from other game systems (most noitably Shadowrun; ritual magic), and I haven't actually developed anything. But the folks who *are* good at comming up with new spells (Cocoon *is* very nice, btw, very creative) - like I said, they design 80% to 90% (possibly even more!) with Glantri or Alphatia in mind. >> I can see several areas in which Thyatian magical research should be quite active: 1) Combat magic: Any magic that promises to be useful in battle, whether it directly inflicts damage or makes soldiers more effective, might be subsi- dized by the Empire. 2) Information gathering: If we interpret the structure of the first three PWAs as reflecting a Thyatian obsession for cataloging the entire world as well as everyone and everything in it, any divination magic that would help with the gathering of such information would attract government support as well. 3) Finally, there should be a significant number of criminal mages who use illusions and similar magic to defraud their victims. There would be a magical "arms race" between them and the mages associated with the constabulary who would be devising counterspells to catch these crooks. Other nations might have a similar situation, but not on the scale of Thyatis. Every other nation except Alphatia would have a much smaller population -- and in Alphatia a wizard would have to be extremely careless and/or obnoxious to get into a position where he is actually prosecuted for harming mundaners in any way. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:16:03 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 1:24:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << As Mystara is a world about war and nations, I assume that magic is a national resource, like, say, nuclear weapons. Glantrians arent going to train anyone. I assume that foreigners or those who are "politically unreliable" may be admitted to the GSoM, but will not be admitted to a circle. Glantri is not going to dole out Dracology to say, Karameikos, no way on Ordanas green planet. Any more than the USA is going to give someone else nukes. Esoteric magic IMC is pretty tightly controlled. >> I would agree that magical secrets are closely guarded, but except in the case of Minrothad they are not generally under goverment control. After all, initiates in the Glantrian secret crafts include the ambassador from Alfheim as well as a number of exiles from the Principalities. Each craft is dominated by particular interest groups within Glantri, so who they accept is determined by their own politics. However, it would be the members of the Craft who would approach the foreigner and not vice versa -- anyone who on his first day of class asked, "Say, do any of you guys know where I could learn dracology?" is virtually guaranteed never to find out about any of the secret crafts. On the other hand, if he behaves himself and manages to become a trusted friend of some of the members of a given craft, then after a few years he may be offered the chance to become a member. As for a Karameikan learning Dracology, the odds in 1000 AC are fairly good, as Glantrians have no general hostility towards Karameikos and some of them (Boldavians) have a distant blood tie that is more likely to be helpful than harm- ful. It is not until the era after the war when Terari opens a rival school in Karameikos that Glantrians in general and those associated with the Great School of Magic in particular develop a general distrust of Karameikans. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:30:25 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/00 10:50:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > > though i am not the biggest fan of the pwa OOBs in the armies sections, there > are those post wrath examples of alpher forces. though reorganized by eriadna > they should be recognized as being at least similar to wrath era units. > I have tended to believe that they are, too - or at least accepted that the person who wrote those units imagined them to be. But you have to take a step back and look at the total question: why is it that a nation (Alphatia) that is not known for its fighters & warriors are portrayed as having troops that are significantly higher level fighters than nations that are known for their fighters & warriors? >> [snip] i agree that alphatia is known for its magic. however, i think that that should not be the foundation to disprove any potential troop quality within its fighter pool of troops. with magic taking center stage, the martial arts would take second stage to the mage personna. likewise, thyatis is known for its fighters, yet a magical (both mage and clerical) element also exists. glantri is known for its magic, yet note the abundance of fighters in its gaz OOBs. the HKs are known for their clerical power yet their forces are not unitarily composed of clerics. stereotypes are one thing, but the stereotypical attributes used alone make for a weak military. a good example of this are the ethie who have focused their forces unitarily on the horse and cavalry lifestyle and have suffered militarily for it. as for the pwa OOBs, i agree that they represent the intent as DotE, WotI, HW box and the PWA1/2 were all penned by Aaron Allston. in general i see the OOBs full of discrepancies. though their hardened forces should reflect the losses of the war, thyatian forces are screwed. hw-alph forces are overly strong dispite the assuption that the bulk of the alpher frontline forces would have been off continent readying for the march on glantri. also, given its aerial nature, protective skyshield, and doctrine of peace and trade in HW there is no need for the bloated units. conversely, nace units are weaker, reflecting little influence from an alpher expeditionary force bound for glantri and hardened by years of war. obviously the scripted post wrath forces are intented to compliment the equally scripted plans for the the kingdoms and empires. << The assumption of the designers at the time seems to be that because the Alphatians were. . . .well, were Alphatians, they were the best at everything, not just magic - better troops, more happy people, more enlightened, etc. As Rob said: > > I disagree that Alphatia is the Sole Power of the outer world. > (. . .Or, I would add, the Hollow World.) Which is what it got increasingly portrayed as, brainwashing a large number of Mystara-gamers in the process, it seems. Which is unfortunate. As Caroletti famously said: "I mean, it's a RPG, but does it have to be stupid?" Anyhow, I've mostly stayed out of this thread but this particular example cried out for a response. I now return you to your debate, already in progress. >> well i agree. prewrath has alph and thyatis on equal terms in their cold war state. i remember when i first read through wrath and saw the thy/glantri/HK alliance i figured that the war was set to go against alph. but as scripted the alliance was a paper tiger....and it was a alpher vs. thyatis war. Wrath has its faults, mostly derived from its "ends justifying the means" scripting. the consensus is that thyatis lost the war to magic, overwhelming numbers, and immortal manipulations. i see no glory for thyatis in this type of defeat. the defeat should be a glorious one against an overall better force. thereafter, thyatis can take the wrath experience of an unrestricted alpher war and learn from it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:30:38 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - I hate it when I use the wrong email account! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/00 7:47:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << >>whether facing muskets, arrows, or thrown kiwi fruit the almighty hero is >still facing a group of npcs. the threat against him/her diminishes as he/she >is accompanied by more troops (safety in numbers). though the hero is >visually different than his rank and file compatriots, the other troops are >as threatening to the charged line as the hero. the defending troops cannot >focus all of their attentions on the hero without exposing themselves to the >other troops. so it becomes a trade off...focus on the hero and hope to >kill >him through attrition/overwhelming attacks or addressing the rank and file >troops and the hero as a singular unit. missile weapons are a key to this .>as >distance and rate of fire make up for discrepancies between rank and file >and >hero hps and thac0. however, close in fighting has the hero at an alarming >advantage against 1st or 2nd level troops. a strategy may be to focus >missile >fire (at least a large portion) towards the advancing hero...weakening him. alot depends on numbers and how the troops compare against each other. Well, I've seen it happen. A high level hero can always run afoul of something as simple as a hold person off a 3rd level priest. 1 2 or 3 is always a fail in high level campaigns :) And its hard to draft in replacement heroes as well.>> however, the Save favors the hero and as a hero the chances are good they possess enchanted items to better protect themselves from the spells. if affected the hero has the option of plenty of sword toting bodies around him to buffer him while incapacitated, perhaps even dragging him back to safety. as a hero, his worth is worth the sacrifice of several regular troops to insure the hero fights again. imagine a moderately equipped 10th level fighter hero. how many standard issue F1s equal his presence on a battlefield? imo you could easily justify ten F1s being risked to block a killing assault and to pull him to safety. even if most are lost a 10th lvl fighter could easily make up for the losses and then some. either way, the hero has the better save than his contemporary F1 or F2 trooper. >>on the contrary that is what i am pointing out. if one side uses magic then >>the other side has the opportunity to use magic. the possession of magic >does >>not insure victory. instead, the practical use in war legitimizes or wastes >>magic. iirc the PS Blood Wars may have the most lavish examples of counter >>magics due to the armies being composed of demons and fiends. this keeps >the >>teleport ability at a near nonfactor as the fiend lords wage their wars. >>obviously such wards would have to be present in most mystaran noble >houses. >>however, i think that the threat of what forces are inside should also be a >>factor. Well, yes, the possession of magic does not insure victory. I thought that was what this whole thread was about...>> nah...my part of the thread dealt with the depiction of alpher fighter troops and their relationship to alpher magic on the battlefield. but as with most threads the subject matter ends up covering more and more attributes....often overshadowing the original subject of the thread. >> <> specialised in longbow troops plugging him at the start of every round, >> disrupting his spells. (This is what I was on about with those >sharpshooter >> units earlier). With a dispel magic and a good roll, the mage is dead - >and >> mages are not "expendable assets".>> >> >>hence the reason for fighting mages to be supported by regular fighter >>troops. range is a big factor in spells. an all mage for could be easily >>outranged by a group of longbowmen. but with a contingent of their own >>archers, counterfire is brought into play. a charge being complicated by >the >>fire brigade that developesa as the charging troops come into range of the >>spells. Sharpshooter units arent new, they were using that sort of thing in Napoleonic times to strike at enemy officers. Agreed insofar that it is a play of tactics. However, reverting to the WotI issue, which was the original point to this thread, I would say that the Alphatians tactics, once again, revolve around the fighters covering the mages who dish out damage. Which is basically what you are saying, just in a more flowery way :)>> i won't dispute the napoleonic ties of the sharpshooter. however given that most mystaran nations are wedged into a medieval/renaissance mold...the napoleonic period and its rifles are a bit beyond them. of course contemporary fantasy weapons could be tweaked to offer sharpshooters type tactics, either through refined crossbows or elite bowmen. in fact i use a sharpshooter in the a few of the Davanian peoples. these are mostly skilled and trained troops that weild a specialized super heavy crossbow to afford greater range. they work in teams; one or two shooters with a spotter to assist in target acquisition and reloading. >><< I'm only in 1006AC IMC and I already reckon that the 1000 Wizards of >> Alphatia are getting some attrition - say, a couple of percent. The PCs >> have dropped a couple, I can only assume that similar stories are going on >> on the rest of the planet. And unlike Johnny Soldier, you can't just >draft >> in a replacement.>> >> >>oh yes...i agree attrition on a mage units is a handicap. that's one reason >i >>see their use in conjunction with sword and shield toting troops. remember >>that these mages (even low level) are alphatia's ruling class. they are >going >>to take every precaution at insuring that their survival is insured. lots >of >>well trained troops around them. and the use of monster summoning type >spells >>to fill the ranks if need be. but as mentioned in another message, i have >my >>doubts about how heavy a role the 1,000 Alph mega mages actually played in >>the actual fighting of the war. i have to think that most mid- to high >level >>mages were being held back for glantri or possibly the HKs. however that >>stage of the war was scripted as not coming to term. all you really had was >>zandor's call to the 1,000 to bombard glantri city which was likewise used >to >>script alphatia's end. No, I agree that the 1000 have certainly not all got invovled. But there are more than that in Alphatia. Just because the archmages havnt deigned to acknowledge the war doesnt mean to say that the midlevels and lowlevels arent heavily involved. And there must be some militants in those 1000 wizards...>> oh yes i agree that some would become more involved. whether it be nationalism, the thrill of war, or by imperial decree certain mages would see action. as nobles...alpher mid and high level mages would fall into a position to be more selective in their participation...either as officers or heroes....and able to offer themselves additional protections and enchanted weaponry. low level mages would fill out the magical rank and file (4-5% of the total force; based on general alpher spellcaster/nonspellcaster population ratios). << When thinking about what would be on the battlefield I kept the levels generally as low as possible really (while still providing a challenge to the PCs). The highest level mage I used actually in the fight was level 7, but there were quite a few mages around the level 3 area. Enough to make a difference.>> that sounds about right in my thinking. while i propose a more skilled alpher melee fighter, i also am against an army of mages. imo armies should be a representation of a society. and war is a burden the nation bears. therefore the armies should be an equal representation of the populace; low level troops of classes demonstrative of the nation as a whole. however, troop diversity should be enough to make an army workable on the battlefield. >> Given the army lists, they are usually infantry, with a bit of supporting >> cavalry. Modern wars of maneuver came about in WW2 when Nazi Germany >> thought of the innovation of motorised infantry - by which the tanks could >> keep up with the infantry instead of vice versa.>> >> >>well there is the rub....modern wars of maneuver. manuever has been an >issue >>of war throughout history. modern warfare just utilizes the industrial >>mechanizations to provide widespread issue of vehicles and weapons. WW1 >>started as a war of movement using first train transport then marching. the >>distances and resistance turned this war of movement into a trench war. WW2 >>saw the introduction of the allied dubbed "blitzkreig" which was in fact >just >>a refinement of earlier german tactics based upon the new weaponry >developed >>in the 20s and 30s. the truck, tank, and airplane being the most notable >>developements/refinements. In WW1 the war of maneuver bogged down quickly because a) there were enough troops in use to garrison a line from coast to coast>> yes...that would be where the mentioned "resistance" comes into play. also factoring in was the distance. a foot army, the troops' endurance was not capable to cross the distance while resistance built up. a solid consistant momentum could not be established, causing the forming of a static front line and eventually trenches. <> yep....there was still a bit of that residual napoleonic aspect in warfare. troop quality was seen as the deciding factor in a battle. the widespread deployment of machineguns and the refinement of artillery made the matter of troop quality a lessened factor. industrialization made these possible. it also added to the fixed positions as logistic demands and structures were not as flexible to allow support of advances without a good degree of time. usually this time saw the advances nullified by counterattack and the positions retaken. WW1 was a meatgrinder and as long as men were available to fill the ranks it would continue. <> yep...the civil war was more a war of maneuver as Lee's smaller forces needed to concentrate his limited resources to meet the northern advances into the south. invading the north was not a viable option, and when attempted was an act of desperation. thanks in part to its predominently rural populace and southern military tradition, the southern forces were better led, better trained, and better motivated than their northern counterparts. however troop quality was undermined by attrition and logistics. had northern resolve (Lincoln) wavered, the war might have been over after two or three battles with the USA and CSA parting ways. <> well...i think that for wrath maneuver was less of a matter on the kingdom level, but more of a matter of individual units maneuvering against an opposing force's units. imo battles were "set piece" in layout. the IoD offensive seems the best campaign where both armies were feeling each other out and trying to win superiority. i like to think that there were two or three inconclusive battles, before one side could claim an area and lay siege to a city. that city taken, the forces engaged at the next objective. i wish that the 2+ years of IoD fighting had been described a bit more. <> Helskir's siding with alph also implies a realization of thyatian forces weakening with undertones of defeatism. if the war was going thyatis's way or inconclusive, Helskir's siding with alph would have been doubtful....better to sit on the fencepost. by allying with alph, the northern third of the IoD head was freed up and those alph forces could be used in the central part of the island. reinforced and the thyatian troops diminished, the ball gets rolling. the problem with this theory is that Wrath sees so many quirky alliances. so the rationale behind Helskir jumping fence can be attributed as much to scripting as it could be to recognizing the way things were heading. > <troops. >> In this way, I suppose they would be the equivalent of the Paras or >> something - they would deploy troops to strategic positions, who would >then >> have to hold said position until they can get some support from the >regular >> troops.>> >> >>well there are numerous kits that could used. each gaz even cites >specialized >>local class deviations that could translate into a mobile mage. Yeah, but 1 mobile mage is not a problem. I'm talking about shifting military units of troops about - say, a couple of hundred individuals.>> as a kit, those hundred war mages could be trained. the Gazs abound with kits and exceptions to the rules. though intended to add local variety and kingdom individuality, the kits/variations can be implemented into a PC/NPC and therefore a soldier. Glantri's military mage is probably the most known troop kit. though not magical, i'd also include the Ethie horse archer...who breaks a number of riding and archery rules. i have no problems with kits as long as they are used with common sense and demonstrate the time needed to train and develop. [snip] >>well boltmen are usually based aboard skyships. given that most were >>conveniently razed during wrath without firing a shot, it is feasible that >>they would have found their use as a foot soldier mage, distributed among >the >>rank and file of fighter troops. thus their trenches become the human and >>steel walls of their fighter troops. their spells being used as a short to >>medium range weapon to compliment the longer range of the archers. >>as for their use in destroying a force 10x their number it is feasible. >>however i must clarify a few things. first "destroy" is not indicative to >the >>slaying of the force to a man. the casualty rate of an opposing force can >>destroy a force, either through rout or surrender. and not that casualties >>are not exclusive to death. wounded also apply...and i think that a 1HD >>fighter automatically hit by a magic missile has to be contemplated as a >>wound. second, number of shots cast at a charging enemy. with a range of 60 >>yards +10 per level, even a 1st level boltman has the time to unleash >several >>bolts. I agree that the boltmen are on ships, which puzzled me why their use was cited at all, but I had to answer. However I had to reply. A wand of magic missiles is inferior to a longbow in almost every respect. Thats just a fact of the AD&D system.>> well...with the mass burning of the skyships at Aasla i figured that the boltmen would be used elsewhere without their warships. you could also theorize that boltmen...or a variant...were used in imperial forces. anyway...a magic missile may be outranged by a long bow and be of slightly lesser damage. however it is an automatic hit...no save, no attack roll, no range modifiers. if the caster can see you, you're hit receiving 2-5 points of damage. if you were a 2nd level fighter and had lost a quarter of your hitpoints, would you charge into a group of equally armed and armored opponents....even if they were F1. just imagine your favorite PC, reduced to 5 hps, would you jump into a group of orcs, where one hit could do you in? >>i roughly quote from the PHB page 128 "In a combat round a being can move >up >>to 10x its movement rate...thus a character with a movement of 9 can move >90 >>feet in one round. However, the types of moves a character can make during >>combat are somewhat limited." [snip] No, you miss my point. It will be the boltmen running towards the superior ranged archers, not the other way around. If the boltmen stayed where they are, they would be peppered at long range.>> [snipped sniper shotgun analogy] no...i mean that a boltmen would form a fire line, for a steady flow of 10-20 magic missile bolts. as for longbow shots, they would be protected by their own longbowmen and distance. if need be they can be removed from fire by a withdrawal of a few feet and brought up to the line in moments. they could also find cover behind a shield bearer or shield wall. Essentially they provide a precise short to medium range missile weapon. their use in this manner denotes a defensive posture. however it could be part of a paced assault formation like the Roman Tortoise Formation (raised shields) until the enemy comes within magic missile range. that is where the fighter troops around the boltmen or mages come in. they have to be able to hold their own and support the boltmen. you can match enemy longbows with your own longbowmen, forming an overlap area where attack rolls and range modifiers apply to both sides. in close range you have to have a strong sword arm and stout shield to keep the enemy off the boltmen so they can offer their magic missiles. it also keeps it from a slugging match and introduces th need for regimental and even divisional maneuvering to pierce or avoid the enemy longbow umbrella. >>likewise...the boltmen would also have support troops around them. we're >>talking about renaissance era warfare....which did see multifacetted troop >>types. no simple phalanxs siding up and slugging it out. Indeed. However, I maintain that the Alphatian army is probably woefully inadequate at the start of Wrath in such regards. You seem to be making out that the Alphatian army is a smoothly oiled machine, well versus in combined arms tactics, capable of dealing with any situation.>> well they do have a history as an imperialist people...though admitedly most of their expansion is based within their first century or so upon mystara. with every nonAlpher a potential enemy a formidable armed forces are in order. my vision of the alpher forces are: an imperial army, an imperial sea navy, an imperial air navy, and alpher kingdom forces. the kingdom forces being the bulk of the alpher military and including their own land, sea (coastal kingdoms), and some air units. <> DotE book 3 page 13. "National Character- Alphers, as a people-thier ruling classes, anyway- are chaotic, free, and individual. " and so on and so on.. mundaners...."are destined to serve in some form or another." Alph's chaotic nature is more centered on the the nobles, the mundaners are the average working stiff in any nation. the nobles have the reigns but the mundaners actually make the empire run. therefore there'd be a bit more of that structure in their lives, especially since the law favors the mage. i have to think that the mundaner alphers end to know how to work within the system. anyway....Alph is weird, hence its appeal. why travel abroad for adventure and intrigue when you step out into the street. though chaotic...yes i believe that even the mundaners share a good degree of that attribute...there is a sense of "order in the chaos". just look at the US, if we Americans aren't chaotic i don't know what is. however we sport one of the finest armies in the world. chaos also breeds variation and individualism. this would apply to the military as well, making an alpher war machine seeing a variety of configurations and tactics. their performance in battle could be an excellant litmus test to tactics to use against a more uniform thyatian military machine. if kingdoms A,B, and C do well or moderately, then their tactics are adopted. <> well the 1000 wizards constantly draw fire as being unbalancing and is usually diluted by reinterpreting the DotE sections on it. as i see it the council is a nonfactor in mainstream gaming. it's not like your pcs are going to kick down a door and find them in a room sitting on chests filled with a gazzillion gps and a bookoodles of enchanted items. the council is a setting characteristic; much like the thyatian 250 wizards of sclaras, the immortals, or even the mages of Honor Island. these spellcasting bodies are not considered as "unbalancing" to the setting. <> actually i agree that thyatis would have a degree of magic within their forces beyond the RAF and clerical contributions. however, the efficiency clause may limit their integration of mages into the armed forces. mages are a minority, even in those up to adventurer standards. they take time to train and develope. as already established, spells usually are outranged by missile weapons. individually mages are physically weak, especially in melee combat. so mages, especially low level ones, may not be the most efficient troop type for thyatis. >well...i don't have CoM handy but iirc bolttmen are given as having wands >of >>magic missiles (among others) which are kept fully charged by the head >>boltmen/mages to 10 or 20 charges. another thing is range. as i don't have >>CoM handy, i cannot be sure but i think that range was heightened to >reflect >>the level of the mage that enchanted/created the wand. anyway...a bow or >>crossbow can outrange the base 60 yards of the magic missile, however the >bow >>requires a hit roll and range modifiers whereas the magic missile is a hit. At 60 yards plus 10 yards per level, you will have to be an archmage to get parity in range. I assume that the luckless mages driven from their studies to mass produce wands of magic missiles will be around the minimum level required to make the things, so we are talking around level 9 I believe for a wand.>> there'd probably be a mixture of enchanters, but even at 9th level that's still 150 yards of no attack roll and no range modifiers. by adnd standards a longbow has a maximum range of 170 yards with a sheaf arrow and 210 yards with a flight arrow. at 150 yards both would be operating with a -5 to its attack roll. though against massed troops individual targeting should not matter for general firing, i do think that some modifier penalty remain to account for the general extreme distance; proper ranging and flight time allowing a raising of shields. for Warmachine purposes, percentile archers are figured into the big picture as a stat modifier. their individual contributions being lost in the big picture. >> >>once again kits and S&P can make for a mage capable of casting from the >>saddle, casting faster, aboard a ship, or casting amid the chaos of a >>battlefield. however we are speaking of boltmen armed with "point and >click" >>wands of magic missiles. ADnD is full of exceptions and variations to the >>rules. being a magic based empire, the alphers would implement as much >magic >>into their forces as they could. 2000+ years offers ample time to implement >>and adapt spells, troops, and mages into an army. Ahh, S&P. Well, the less that about that the better. I'm talking about mages here - you know mages? the guys in the Players Handbook? That have graced this game since the seventies? Lets leave the modern equivalent of cavaliers and assassins out of it.>> i'll agree with the apprehensions of S&P to a degree. given time and enough slots you can create all manner of variations on the theme. i do think that they do serve a purpose in acquiring talents, but i see them as often being overused for power attributes and unneccessary for obvious skills such as swimming. still, i think they can be used as long as you stay away from overdoing things especially if the support a reasonable kit. and speaking of kits, if we introduce the sharpshooter kit we should introduce a improved mage kit. fair is fair. <> if they are so wigged out then why isn't the thyatian standard flying above sundsvall...or at least the entire IoD or Belly. imo the cold war rivalry of thy and alph were detrimental to the two as they were grouped together in DotE as a lump sum. for their size, each really needed its own Gaz to added the needed details and descriptions. i mean jeez louise ierendi and atruaghin got their own gazs. anyway...decline and drunken stuppors are also found in thyatis through corruption. and the general inference of DotE is that thyatis was in its own decline approaching Wrath. << I cant find any kit in 2nd edition, excluding "Munchkin Heaven" S&P, which lets a mage cast in any of the situations I mentioned. Presumably Alphatian boltmen in AD&D would be of the Military Wizard kit - which gives em some more hit points, a worthy thing to have in a battle. But not any ability to cast in adverse conditions. Sure, you could make a kit that helps, but thats changing the rules.>> let me check around. iirc there are several gungho kits in Dragon Mag that use existing S&P to make fighting mages. let me check what i dub "the pile". if i am going to offer an example i'd prefer a justification in S&P overt a simple scripted explanation like the glantri military mages. << I would agree with you that probably a mage with horseback riding (perhaps a Glantrian Military Wizard) could perhaps cast spells on horseback. From a stationary horse, however, I can't envision spellcasting on the back of galloping charger somehow. There's this little thing called "game balance", otherwise translated as "the mage does not the rule the world". Fact is, in theory if you have 100 fighters versus 100 mages, in an ideal world they should be equal. Its merely a question of style. And if they arent equal, because the pendulum has swung too far in one direction or another, than something should be done about it. >> in a 100 mage vs. 100 fighter encounter the levels of each respective class group comes in to play. obviously a F1 vs. M1 scenario is going to have the fighters prevail as they absorb the singular low level spell. as you increase the class levels things begin to go the mages' way as more spells come into play, especially those area affect ones. however, if those fighters can get in close and use those better ACs, THAC0s and weapons profs against the unarmored and melee weak mages. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:30:18 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/00 8:03:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << >however you want to portray the war is fine. details of the war are kept at a >minimum. however, i'd like to point out that the alpher forces are not poor >peasant/conscripts backed by magic. DotE states that alpher forces are good >and that each kingdom is renown for a particular troop type. the few >references to the war also infer a competant military. attrition did play a >heavy role, but not as human walls for the mages. in fact, if you look you'll >see that magic...especially the grand council...was not a factor on the >battlefield. imo...at least from inferences and materials...i'd have to say >that the bulk of the actual battlefield fighting is done by well trained and >well motivated troops....mostly fighters and a minority low level mages. Reliance on magic is hardly a flaw, every adventuring party I have ever played or DMed for (they usually have at least two mages in them) use similar tactics. Just like the M1A2 main battle tank is the linchpin of the American armed forces, so the mage is the linchpin of the Alphatian armed forces.>> i never said magic was a flaw. nor did i say that magic was not vital to the alpher warmachine. from what i have seen the high magic would have been more readily seen on the homefront in a logistical sense. on the battlefield magic would have probably been lower level mages in a 1:4 or 1:5 ratio to fighter based troops. much like those presented in the pwas. magic itself has much more a use on the logistical front and does not have to be the core of an assault spike. anyway...it's safer for the mage...who is afterall the nobles of alphatia. one thing that needs to be remembered is that in Warmachine Rules, individual actions are a nonfactor to the results of a battle. <> vietnam asside....attrition was a factor in wrath. however, i think that alphatia's greater numbers were more instrumental in recovering and replacing frontline troops after a battle than presenting overwhelming numbers in a singular battle. instead of the vietnam analogy...WW2 may be the better choice for attrition models. in mystaran/wrath terms...alpher forces were able to go toe to toe with thyatian forces and maintain a standard of troops equal to the thyatians. remember in the battles of retebius and kantrium...the fighting is said to be costly for both sides but alphatia was able to make up the losses while retaining troops standards. conversely, thyatis could not and was faced with using old men and boys to fill the ranks. as for time being demonstrative towards qualities...i'd like to point out that the war was declared in spring AC1005. actual fighting begins in fall of AC1005 on the IoD and lasts until spring of AC1008....that's just under 3 years of hard fighting with both empires being at roughly full strength and on equal terms (remember this period saw the thyatian officers seeing corruption and zzonga addicts; troops in bad shape). in summer of AC1008 thyatis is still strong enough (zzonga addicts gone and army fit) to repel an alphatian naval assault...but realizes its screwed....die is cast. by the winter of AC1008 alpher forces had reached ylari lands. by the summer of AC1009 they were in thyatis and by fall AC1009 fought the aforementioned battles of retebius and kantrium. soonafter (also fall of ac1009) Thyatis ends its part in the war and alpher forces prepare to march on glantri. so it wasn't six years of fighting. more like it was a bit over four years. the war wasn't a constant series of battles either. from what is given battles are paced out over a period of time. given the general medieval/renassaince nature of the armies involved much of this could be attributed to the time needed to move into position, engage, and reposition for subsequent battles. and it should also be remembered that the wrath timeline is not set in stone....and is designed to allow an event to be moved up or back depending on the actions of the pcs. <> while DotE mentions that military matters are left to fighter types. it also mentions that the fighters handle the military in a practical manner. practicality and a need for defense (and possible offense) verifies a degree of adequate funding. with the existance of the imperial sky navy with its untold billions of gps worth of man-of-wars, a need for a heavy military presence is established. i'd also like to point out that the mobilization periods for both alph and thyatis were short before the opening shots of wrath, denoting strong existing armies for both. also remember that before wrath you had General Torenal....who was a devout fighter and planned his fate with an epic fight with thyatis and thincol. imo he'd be a great proponent for the alpher fighting men and given his relation with eriadna he'd have a good deal of influence in funding. you must also remember the alpher mindset. one could assume that the mages would not want a too powerful fighter force for fear of an uprising. however i think that the alpher mindset plays in on both sides. as mages, a mere fighter is nothing to be feared. as alphatians with 2000+ years of status quo the nonspellcaster class would probably accept the class structure. as i have pointed out a few times before in other threads, being a nonspellcaster is often associated with being a slave inside alpher lands. this is not entirely true. though second class, mundaners are only second to the noble class mages/clerics. the spellcasters being a noble class are really no different than other lands and their divinity of nobility. the difference is that alphers are not granted noble status just because of birth. <> just pointing out that alpher fighter forces are not necessarily the low end of the mystaran troop pool. since Wrath is set to which way it went and Warmachine is not focal on individual action the question really goes to description of a battle and war to the pcs. >though i am not the biggest fan of the pwa OOBs in the armies sections, there >are those post wrath examples of alpher forces. though reorganized by eriadna >they should be recognized as being at least similar to wrath era units. I seriously doubt that. Look at the WW2 OOB for, say, the UK in 1939, and then again in 1945. Or for that matter 1914 and 1918. After 6 years of bloody conflict you would expect them to learn something, after all. I'm sure the Alphie armies as listed after reorganisation are significantly better off than those pre Wrath.>> conversely, 2000+ years of existance on mystara would also be demonstrative to further refinements of weapons and tactics. the ongoing dilution of magically endowed offspring from 99% to 25% is a recognized factor. as the shift from mage majority to mage minority developed the role of imperial defense had to be assumed more and more by the fighter forces. <> this whole thread could have been resolved had Allston provided some sample OOBs in DotE for thyatis and alphatia. even an added paragraph or two on the matter could have claified armed forces strengths and weaknesses. the military units are vague. even the notable RAF and imperial sky navies are briefly described and no numbers given. imo opinion this is odd as thyatis and alpher were so pegged as being in a cold war type situation with each other. the reader is left to interpret based upon the alph=magic thyatis=fighter stereotypes. it would have been equally appreciated to see some OOBs in WotI since there was a war brewing between these two. this thread is actually appreciated. i cannot speak for everyone, but i know that there are at least four others that see this discussion as a vital part to a project we are working on. >as mentioned...this is not a direct slam of the way you handled the war. i >just wanted to point out a few matters. likewise i think that thyatis should >not be dubbed as losing to alpher magic. instead make their defeat a glorious >war against a formidable enemy. the greater the enemy, the greater the honor >and glory...even in defeat. Oh, I agree there. However, I disagree that Alphatia is the Sole Power of the outer world. If Thyatis hadnt been practically crippled by Valerias in the early stages, how would that war have gone? It went on for six years, and Thyatis lost some strategically stuff right at the beginning, and thats after their high command have been crippled.>> never said alph was/is the sole power. if anything i see the two on equal terms as far as military strength. i'll agree that the valerias interference was a factor early on in the war, however i don't see the damage done as the sole excuse for thyatis's defeat. as per prewrath sources, thyatis had a corrupt undertone to its armed forces with bought commissions and self interests for power. valerias's manipulations were as much of a result of this nature as it was the cause. likewise, any damage done was a nonfactor at wrath's midpoint as inept officers were either killed in battle or dismissed. but that is something seen throughout wars. <> that'll be interesting to see. how are you handling the bulk of the alpher fleet being burned? what numbers are you giving the RAF? DotE does offer a sample contingent of the RAF in thycity. i guess you could use that to base them on, as a proportional representation of the RAF. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:32:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A general response to the longbow issue. what kingdom started the longbow craze? who cares. longbows are a form of weapon found anywhere in mystara. i think it unwise to grace its creation with any nation. the bow is an ancient weapon, the longbow a natural progression of its developement. if it has to be created by anyone....go back in time to the Blackmoor and Thonia. the DA series has longbows in it so those humans had knowledge of them and their use. as for elven expertise...dub it as an adoption and refinement of a weapon. an elf gets good at the weapon due to the decades of practice and use. imo the elven longbow should also be a factor. toss a human bow to him and bonuses are diminished. for humans i would not be so critical of who would be yeoman and who would not be. i'd also forego the elven influence. as i see it a skilled longbowman is a product of practice and use. for the most part these individuals would come from the rural areas of a kingdom as the bow becomes a part of life. you could assume that a yeoman culture be established in urban areas through archery ranges and shooting clubs. however, by the by i feel that most urban recruits would find the crossbow easier to learn and use. more urban based kingdoms would therefore find the crossbow more heavily used within their armies. in short i think that no kingdom can claim a monopoly on the longbow. with mystara's elongated medieval/renaissance eras and its trade hubs, the longbow has been adopted by most kingdoms. however i do like the idea of yeoman class. this could be a club of sorts in peacetime and elite unite in war. war sees their numbers worn down by casualties as their elite status has them used heavily. therefore most yeoman are now in a state of rebuilding. while i am on it....equipment, weapons, and armors are pretty evenly represented throughout mystara. for national and regional character specialize the basic weapon to appear specific to an area. for example, thy and alph platemail probably differs in design. apparance is different but the stats are the same. equipment deviations can be seen in the rw and those created in different nations can be told apart by their style and configuration. jeez...read back the above comes of a bit tense....unintentionall of course. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:32:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/00 12:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << > I prefer battles where large numbers of troops face each other. in fact, I > don't like PCs taking a close stand with battles except as officers. Imo war > should be handled by the respective military forces. PCs should find their > wartime use in special tasks before the battle to aid the war effort or in > command of units Yes, in order to have a battle you've got to get there, use PC's to whittle down enemy forces. When travelling main part of most armies is usually column, remember that 14th level druid? or even a wand of lightning and an improved invisibility spell. Since this is known to be able to happen on Mystara shouldn't there be some mention somewhere of how the advanced military nations cope?>> i don't know. to me something about PCs taking direct action against enemy troops bothers me. imo they could be used to gather info, scout areas, sabotage drinking water, destroy bridges, disrupt logistics, etc.; missions that hamper the enemy's war effort. i guess i just think that war should be handled by the armies and not the pcs. afterall once the forces engage, Warmachine limits the action to the armies. <> also you could delay mislead the opposition to allow your own forces time to position themselves on favorable terrain, scout the area, and set up. as mentioned i don't like the idea of pcs drawing a line in the sand and going head to head with regular armed forces. imo i think that they can serve in more useful ways to affect the war. plus, under Warmachine rules the war is decided by general troop strengths than by PC actions. the pcs can affect Warmachine by undermining the troop numbers and affectiveness. << Magic missile on the battlefield is best used to kill the MOUNTS of the opposing cavalry>> well MM is great as it is an automatic hit. damage is small against a 3HD creature. perhaps a bow or crossbow may be better against horses. horses are generally skittish but i am unsure if a MM would be enough to throw a rider or call for a morale check. anyway...it depends upon the number of MMs you have and how much cavalry you are facing. <> i agree. though i dislike the idea of firearms in mystara, a fire ball attack allows an area affect weapon to offer damage to several enemy troops at once. imagine the affect on a closely bunched group of troops such as a phalanx or even a cavalry charge. << From experience wargaming the best use of magic actually during the battle is to lessen you opponents cohesiveness. Fireball so you take out the middle of the charging group so there are now two smaller disrupted and uncoordinated groups coming Spike Growth in front of part of a unit set to receive a charge for ,same reason. Arrows with Continual Darkness cast on them fired at enemy (remember to have more con lights than darks on your own side). Walls to funnel the enemy into killing areas or stop reinforcement etc.>> i won't contest the above uses. i would like to point out that in Warmachine Rules, the detail of spells are less a factor than the number of mages in a unit. i do think though that such uses could be used to describe the details of a battle...just figure up a seperate battle scenario where the mages are not included. compare the results and formulate a magic contribution. however, have you found other systems where magic is more controllable on the battlefield? i use Warmachine. <> oh i agree. however, i'd add that wounding the opposition comes into play as well. imagine if you send the pcs to contaminate the water holes the approaching army will have to use. if you can get a percentage of the opposing force to come down with dysentery these guys are no good for several days. as for the morale affect of magic, i'd also include the downside in that the loss of a mage would be a morale blow to his support forces. this loss could be him getting wounded and fleeing, him running out of spells, or him getting killed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: New spell- Cocoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An alternate approach to explaining the longevity of many wizards might be to develop a system of research in which a mage sacrifices feats (3E), spell slots, or even effective wizard levels in some combination for longevity. I certainly would not expect player characters to abuse this one too much -- after all, given the choice between casting one spell per day for maximum effect or of having your character's lifespan extended by fifty years or so and losing some spellcasting ability in the process, which do you think most players would opt for? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: The Changing Face of Glantrian Polit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One interesting point about the discussion of the relative strengths of the noble houses of Glantri is that accepting the G:KoM noble descriptions as correct would result in only minor shifts in power -- at most, each noble who gained a title through an Awards Festival should have gained a single rank and thus a single vote in Parliament. It turns out that the Net almanacs make very little mention of the lesser Glantrian nobles -- the only event of significance that I found was the creation of an elven barony allied to the Erewans. And it does only seem reasonable for Dolores to make up for her loss of Jaggar by acquiring Harald's sleazier allies, with only Gerrid remaining loyal to him. But there is another question that has not been addressed that threatens to divide the d'Ambrevilles: the Sephora/Marais rivalry. The "nicer" Etienne will not want to put too much pressure on Genevieve, especially if he is still in love with her -- so he may prove totally ineffective in influencing her for the better. Would Genevieve let her hatred of Malachie so consume her that she openly deserts the d'Ambrevilles and sides with Dolores, or would she simply become a pawn in Dolores's next scheme? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:58 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Darokin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/00 6:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, redrobyne@ELLIJAY.COM writes: << My understanding was that most people lived in cities and very rarely in the country side. >> Of course, it should be pointed out hat the death rate in nearly every pre- modern city exceeded the birth rate, so you needed a good supply of farm kids migrating in from the countryside to keep up the population and even more of them staying on the farm to grow food for all those people. In modern times we can have far more people living in cities than in rural areas -- but in pre-modern times the requirements for maintaining cities severely limited the number of people who could live in them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: "Evil" nations (was Stefan Karameikos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 6:15:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, habgyp@YAHOO.COM writes: << Personally, I can't recall any nation that had a Gaz done on it that never got pros and cons in its own or another Gazzeteer. >> On the other hand, the nations of Heldann, Denagoth, and Hule all get prominent mentions in other sources but since they don't have their own gazetteers they are pretty consistently depicted as villainous. I have seen some Net material that makes a start at redeeming the Heldanners. Does anyone have anything on "good" Huleans or Denagothians? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: New Darokinian Merchant Spells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 4:18:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, jamm@JAMM.COM writes: << More info about the Darokin Light Army? >> That looks like an interesting one to take on. Does anyone have a reference to any "canonical" mention of it in the gazetteer or one of the almanacs? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:27:01 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-20 3:16:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << Yep. They don't interact with anyone else, for some strange reason. They don't do much of anything in the Karameikos Gaz (even with the Callarii elves!) and it isn't until the Thyatis Gaz that we learn anything about them worthwhile. Makes me wonder what the Thyatians have on them. ;) >> Some history, perhaps? The Thyatian Empire has been around for a thousand years, and its people go back even further. The Vyalia elves will probably warm up to Karameikos once it has been around for another century or two, if that nation still exists then. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:27:00 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Poll: What is your preferred nation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/00 7:01:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jason.murphy@MITSWA.COM.AU writes: << Wow....your crediting a politician with an original thought....you've obviously alot more faith in them than I. :) >> Ah -- but he didn't claim that it was an original thought. Generally, you can be fairly sure that a politician is stealing somebody else's idea when he claims that he came up with it himself, and that he made it up himself when he tries to credit it to somebody else. Remember the classic technique for telling when a politician is lying: his lips move. In fact, that generalization suggests a reason that most nations might be indifferent to being conquered by the Thatians: 1st citizen of conquered country: "Run for your lives! The Thyatians have taken over! We are now under the rule of people who will lie, deceive, and betray us at every turn!" 2d citizen: "In other words -- nothing will change, right?" ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:40:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Magical SAT's etc. In-Reply-To: David Knott 's message of Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:00:32 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Ok, Elcalear kept quiet while in Glantri back in the 980's, but it is not necessary in Karameikos in 1016. Besides, it is hard to keep secret one's skill in Dracology when one Dragon Breath's a bunch of noids. And according to Gaz 3, all it takes to become a student at the school is money. Money even works to become a member of one of the secret crafts. Gaz3 mentions Charm, deceit, blackmail and bribery on page 69. Like I said, Elcalear himself can't teach Dracology in Karameikos and the GSoM is going to keep a close eye on any Karameikans in the School if they let any in at all. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:46:27 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the most part, especially with specific regard to the "Alph vs. Thy, I'm better than you are" aspects, I've stayed out of this thread (yes, made a couple posts in it, but mostly restrained myself from getting into the dogfight portions of it). Well, here's my take on the latest, if anyone cares (if not, stop reading and simply hit the delete button). > > i agree that alphatia is known for its magic. however, i think that that > should not be the foundation to disprove any potential troop quality within > its fighter pool of troops. with magic taking center stage, the martial arts > would take second stage to the mage personna. likewise, thyatis is known for > its fighters, yet a magical (both mage and clerical) element also exists. > The question isn't "why does Alphatia have fighters?" but rather "why were they portrayed as having better fighters than places that are known for their fighters?" A question you didn't answer, and really can't be answered unless one says "because they are Alphatians, and therefore superior in every way to any other nation on Mystara" - the Dupuisian answer. > as for the pwa OOBs, i agree that they represent the intent as DotE, WotI, HW > box and the PWA1/2 were all penned by Aaron Allston. > PWA2 was not penned by Allston, it was written by Dupuis. > the consensus is that thyatis lost the war to magic, overwhelming numbers, > and immortal manipulations. i see no glory for thyatis in this type of > defeat. the defeat should be a glorious one against an overall better force. > Really? I'm not sure. Losing to an "overall better force" isn't glorious, either. Losing due to the fact that the enemy is "pound for pound" about one's equal, but has more pounds (more numbers, as Alphatia does), is IMO as a general proposition more glorious than losing because you are comparably incompetent (the other guy has the overall better force). One can learn lessons from defeat either way, but it is very inglorious to lose because of inferiority. Heck, it almost contradicts your own argument that the victors should face a challenge and that is the only way that victory is glorious - if they have an overall better force, then victory is assured and the challenge does not exist (asside: I know some people will want to chime in with "well, there is no glory in war anyhow, so stop trying to find some" - this is "epic fantasy," in as much as we go for "realism" in the sense that things ought to make sense, no one plays this game to wallow in the mire of IRL, either. There can be glory in fantasy wars even if their is no glory in real war - and even if the fantasy war is depicted as just as bloody and even appalling, there is still "glory" in another sense, the sense of accomplishment of victory or even defeat against the odds dispite doing the best one can - the accomplishment of the players, and perhaps even their characters. Folks don't play to be disgusted, but to have fun. End of long digression on "glory or not in Mystaran Warfare"). > > i won't dispute the napoleonic ties of the sharpshooter. however given that > most mystaran nations are wedged into a medieval/renaissance mold...the > napoleonic period and its rifles are a bit beyond them. > Not nessissarily. Characters, and armies, will develop tactics based upon the challenges they face, just as in real life. This is where the fact that we aren't playing in a completely medieval/renaissance world comes into play - magic has been around for millenia, as folks who like to harp upon how adept those who use magic are in developing sound tactics and strategies for employing it like to point out. So too will non-spellcasters develop sound tactics and strategies for dealing with it. They won't just stand around with a dull look on their face and get shreaded, nor will they march into range and form up in tight groups so they can be efficiently dispatched by the battlefield boltmen. They will react intelligently, something I thought you were arguing for earlier (re the intelligent enemy). Sharpshooters? In a game where folks can have various levels of mastery of weapons (OD&D) or specialization in their use (AD&D), of course there will be "sharpshooter" bowmen. Charge in and take mass casualties? When Rob said that he was having the Alphies use wave attacks, you objected - but when it came to those the Alphatians fight, you decreed that they should behave just this way, and take 5:1 or 10:1 casualties and grin happily while doing so. That I found a bit much, and not very consistant on your part. > > well they do have a history as an imperialist people...though admitedly most > of their expansion is based within their first century or so upon mystara. > Not true. The Alphers didn't get into Esterhold until well after the Thyatian revolt (a couple centuries as I recall), and moved into Norwold this current time only in AC 985 per DotE. In between they made a number of other attempts at expansion (Minrothad's "Alphatian Cauldera," Ylaruam, Glantri being the most noitable ones - on, and Thyatis itself). They haven't been essentially pacific since 100 AY as you imply. > > Alph's chaotic nature is more centered on the the nobles, the mundaners are > the average working stiff in any nation. > Glad to see someone other than myself pointing out that Alphatian "chaotic freedom" doesn't apply across the board. > > actually i agree that thyatis would have a degree of magic within their > forces beyond the RAF and clerical contributions. however, the efficiency > clause may limit their integration of mages into the armed forces. > A meritricious argument if there ever was one. Of course the Thyatians would, on account of efficiency, employ magic in their armed forces, just as one who wants an efficient modern army employs combined arms. Read the Player's Guide to Thyatis section on Thyatians & Magic. Clearly they see it as efficient. Also, one of the main reasons Thyatis is mentioned as supporting the development of mages & clerics is to counterbalance Alphatia's strength in those areas. And yet you argue that they won't use it against Alphatia, by limiting their integration into the armed forces? I have to scoff openly at that. I appologize if that seems harsh, but here is where I see the dichotomy between how you think the Alphatians ought to act and how you think the Thyatians should, with the benifit going to the former - you state that the Alphatian's units of boltmen can (rather efficiently) dispatch five or ten times their number of opposing troops, but suggest that the Thyatians would not use mages to achieve the same effect, for reasons of "efficiency." That again seems to be somewhat inconsistant of you. Mages, but especially Clerics, can do all sorts of things when properly integrated into an army. Sure, it is unwise to expect them to deal with forces as you previously suggested they could, but neither would one side "limit" their integration into the armed forces if they were effective. If they were ineffective, then sure, they would limit using them, or find better ways to employ them (perhaps not in entire units composed solely of spellcasters, but intermixed among other units, again as a sort of "force multiplier" and "fire support" - not the sole or main component, but one of the factors among several, in an integrated manner aimed at achieving victory in the most efficient way possible). > > overdoing things especially if the support a reasonable kit. and speaking of > kits, if we introduce the sharpshooter kit we should introduce a improved > mage kit. fair is fair. > I don't think Rob was talking about an additional kit - I think he was refering to using the rules for Fighters as they already exist. I love it when as a result of Fighters using what they already have access to (Specialization), the argument is made that it's "only fair" that mages get one more benifit than they already have. See my thread about how the mage class has already been built into being the one class superior to all others; and now you say they need one more benifit. The lavish devotion to new spells, new spellcasting crafts, and yes new kits and abilities for mages is rarely met with the cry "well, if you're going to introduce that, then it's only fair to build up the humble thief some," let alone the humble fighter (until, of course, I recently brought up the subject) - but let Rob mention sharpshooters to counter-act the uberBoltmen, and the cry of "fair is fair" rings out across the land. . .Already we're at a situation where there is only one class that people can regularly argue can defeat entire armies singlehandedly (I.E. someone's argument re. a specific Glantrian Prince vs. the army of Ethengar) - and it certainly isn't Clerics, Thieves, Bards, Mystics, or Fighters. But it is "fair is fair, the mage needs something more" if someone mentions giving Fighters an equalizer vs. mages. Sorry to rant about this, but it's one of my current vexations (again, I have many). > > corruption. and the general inference of DotE is that thyatis was in its own > decline approaching Wrath. > I quote from DotE, DMSB, p.5, collumn 3: "Ironically, it was that invasion [the Spike Assault -Porph] that helped turn the empire's invisible decline around. . ." {para continues}. In other words, by AC 1000, Thyatis' decline has supposedly reversed itself. Only later and in this forum by certain folks who know who they are is that decline portrayed as ongoing, with immediate and effectively irreversable results (wheras no Alphatian decline is ever considered to affect anything truely important or have any significant consiquences). > > while DotE mentions that military matters are left to fighter types. it also > mentions that the fighters handle the military in a practical manner. > Yes - it says that they don't arm the troops with bagpipes and daggers. However, no where that I have found does it openly say that Alphatia's troops are good, as you asserted in another post. They may be, or they may not be good. I'd argue that they are fairly competent, good, but not overwhelmingly so as portrayed in PWAII's OOBs. > > of adequate funding. with the existance of the imperial sky navy with its > untold billions of gps worth of man-of-wars, > Where does it say that they had and spent billion of gps on Men-of-War? That's your interpretation that Alphatia has a skyship navy of circa 500 Men-of-War ("billions" of gps worth). I can't find any numbers one way or another on that. > > wrath, denoting strong existing armies for both. also remember that before > wrath you had General Torenal....who was a devout fighter and planned his > fate with an epic fight with thyatis and thincol. > Which brings up another point - the Alphers lose their best general and planner right before the war, but don't seem to miss a beat. Also, Zzonga is supposedly an Alphatian thing, but we only ever hear of Thyatians using it. I found this a bit odd, myself. I'm sure others think that is perfectly normal (for those people, I refer you to "History of Alphatia (Revised)" - you have my permission as author of that to use it in your campaigns). > > you must also remember the alpher mindset. one could assume that the mages > would not want a too powerful fighter force for fear of an uprising. however > i think that the alpher mindset plays in on both sides. > .. . .and of course always comes down on the side most benificial to them, unlike how Thyatis gets portrayed. But I digress. > as mages, a mere fighter is nothing to be feared. > Yes, quite. See what I said above regarding the imbalance in how people portray the character classes in D&D these days. See also what I have said in the past about people adopting the mindset of the Alphatian ruling class as if it were objectively true in every respect. 8-) > often associated with being a slave inside alpher lands. this is not entirely > true. though second class, mundaners are only second to the noble class > mages/clerics. the spellcasters being a noble class are really no different > than other lands and their divinity of nobility. > This isn't entirely true. Read the section on the Alphatian "Servant Class" and compare it with the section on Thyatis' "Slave Class" - you'll find that there are more similarities than differences in how Thyatis treats its slaves and how Alphatia treats its servant class (which would be the bulk of Alphatia's population - or the bulk when you include the actual slaves). Also read the section on p.2 of the Player's Guide to Alphatia - "coorespondence of an Ierendian Traveler". Alphatia doesn't treat its commoners the same way every other nation does (do they treat them the same as Darokin does? as Glantri? as Ylaruam? Any other nation you can mention?) - not unless one entirely reshapes Alphatia and throws out the DotE materiel and goes with Dupuis in refering to "Alphatian Citizenship" - which I guess many have by this point. But, no, Alphatia is not "no different than other lands." > > than other lands and their divinity of nobility. the difference is that > alphers are not granted noble status just because of birth. > Again untrue since the Alph. Guide "strongly infers" that the ability to become a spellcaster, and thus a noble, is a strongly heritable trait. In other words, it comes from birth, and seems to be "recessive" at that (thus Eriadna's children by Torenal all being mere mundaines). Alphatia is far from a "cream rises to the top meritocracy". > > just pointing out that alpher fighter forces are not necessarily the low end > of the mystaran troop pool. > Nor are they necessarily at the high end. Whether they are at the low, median, high, or pre-eminent end isn't stated openly in DotE. All DotE says is they manage not to arm them with bagpipes, something I wouldn't say is exactly a ringing endorsement of their quality. They are, as I said above, probably effective. But supermen? *pfft* > > this thread is actually appreciated. i cannot speak for everyone, but i know > that there are at least four others that see this discussion as a vital part > to a project we are working on. > Yes, but once everything is said and done I'm not sure we've generated more light than heat after devoting all this time to the discussion. Some of the early posts that were actually on "tactics vs magic" and the utility of this or that spell, this or that tactic, were very illuminating. But at the end of these exchanges on WotI, Thyatis, and Alphatia I think each of us are left pretty much where we were before, nothing has really changed with regards to the perspectives and opinions of any of the participants. We're left with the same choices, and the same difficulties in making them. While as you said it might have been helpful if more on the armies was included in DotE (especially since, even if these nations don't fight full-scale, WotI wars all the time, they fought fringe battles in numerous occassions), still I think this is one area where, except for the case where we truely need a consensus decision, the fact that it's open to folks to decide for themselves based on their own impressions & the needs of their own campaigns is helpful. Filling in the gaps and tying up the loose ends of DotE is in part, I think, why there are so many discussions that revolve around it - some of which do end up producing a variety of tangible results (see Stan's site for a number of those posted by a number of folks). As for the rest it seems we'll just have to muddle through, since I don't see us all reaching any difinitive decision we can all accept (but as for that other project, we will reach something even if it is a compromise but probably it will just be an acceptance of the work of whoever does the regions in question, so long as it is structurally sound and in general reasonable). > > never said alph was/is the sole power. if anything i see the two on equal > terms as far as military strength. > A lot of things by a lot of people (and not nessisarily you yourself) tend to imply that it is - I think that's why Rob made the remark he did. And I can also see why he would get the impression that you believed that as well from some of your earlier responses in this thread, impressions you have in some ways clarified (like in the above statement) and corrected. > > fleet being burned? what numbers are you giving the RAF? DotE does offer a > sample contingent of the RAF in thycity. i guess you could use that to base > them on, as a proportional representation of the RAF. > Of course that was penned when the impression of Alphatian skyships was the "Airship of Love," before they got uberized in Champions of Mystara (I note for the record that the usual suspect was involved in that project as well) - it might be that revisions are in order based upon this subsiquent materiel, or it might not. I just point out the latter "suplimentation" of the skyship's imputed powers for the record. If one side isn't held strictly to DotE, then neither should the other be. Otherwise, if both are, well then let's have at it. I'd love to see Rob's stuff, too. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:01:49 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - National Strengths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > what kingdom started the longbow craze? who cares. l > Well, I think the folks that care are the ones who acnowlege that IRL the longbow was a fairly unusual weapon almost unique to a very small geographic area (the "Welsh" Yewbow, or England in general), and is reputed to be a fairly difficult weapon to master compared to other bows. While, like I said in one of my posts, since it is portrayed as being widespread I wouldn't keep it out of the hands of any given nation while still allowing a lot of other nations to use it (I.E. not let the Alphers use it, or the Thyatians, but allow everyone else who's currently described as using it to keep on using it), for campaigns that want a more unique flavor restricting it to a tighter area might be appropriate (I.E. someone said that in their campaign only elves use it, generally. Or a campaign might decide that it is the national weapon of Bellyane but hardly found outside it). I think that's ligitimate for folks who want their campaigns like that. As for Mystara in general, you're right in the sense that it's too late to "unring the bell" - Longbow is widespread, according to the materiel we have, and the reasons you gave are as good a rationale for how this could have come to be as any. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:31:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Ideas for Karameikan Conflict Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If everything stays the same mundane boring world, then what's point to existing as a PC. So here's some ideas for possible conflict. 1. Traldaran Rebellion (BraveHeart?) One Traldar rises as the hero. His heroics eventually muster followers and inspire others to perform acts of heroism. Local Barons fearing the popular hero and his good deeds, jail him under fabricated evidence. The hero escapes and builds a rebel army to overthrow the maligned barons. Thyatians barons and the Duke are in a dilemma. The hero is just, but they have to stick with there own, and if they go against the barons, other barons will form a coup. However, joining the maligned barons causes other Traldar to view all Thyatians as racist and as disent grows further the rebel army grows in size. Adventures will be hired to capture the baron and bring him to justice. Some players who believe in the system, will soon discover that this noble leader (whom should win the hearts of the players through his charm and righteousness) does not receive justice and is executed. Or the players could join the hero, and help repel the tyranny of the Thyatian conquerers. If the hero dies, he becomes a matyr causing the rebel army to grow. But a new hero is needed, perhaps a PC? Can the PC fullfill those shoes? 2. Iron Ring Coup The Iron Ring (secretly controlled by a group of powerful highlevel mages) starts to gather armies of humanoids: gnolls, bugbears, orcs, kolbolds, and goblins. Many of these humanoids live in the hills, mountains, and have caverns under Mystara. At the same time, they manage to bribe a few Barons to help start a coup. Baron Ludwig gets in on this to and utilizes his large Bugbear armies. Soon many events will unfold. Player may be the victems of random hit & runs in mafia- like warfare inside the streets of Specularuam/Mirros. Gnomish expenditions into the underearth reveal large standing armies awaiting the order to strike. The players can get involved in many areas. This is a good chance to run B10: Night's Dark Terror, B6 The Veiled Society (add some gang warfare to the affects), and possibly an adapted A1-4 Scrouge of the Slavelords. A masterful DM can combine the modules in such a manner to get the PCs hooked. The PCs could also take a role in organizing peasant armies of Traldarans, and acting as officers in a Karameikan army. Warhammer and BattleSystems could be used, and the players would be required to use some strategy on their parts. 3. The Church of Karameikos With the various cult activities occuring throughout the country side, the Traldarans become a scapegoat. Convinced that people are becoming possessed by demons, and others are being manipulated by witches allied with these demons, the church takes it upon themselves to save Traldarans from themselves. If the Traldaran souls are not saved, the eternal war against the demons in will be lost. The church is able to manipulate the politics in such a manner so that all other religions are henceforth outlawed. Any found worshipping another religion will be considered a heritic and even worse a witch. A player can worship one of these outlawed religions and be faced with a big problem as he/she cannot publically practice the player's religion. Some in the church do not support the "one religion" proclamation. They are quickly disposed of by being declared a heritic, or they are assassinated by scrupulous Barons or priests whom feel the end justifies the means. Players siding with the priests can actually hunt down and find true witches and possessed NPCs, and even demons. However, they will see innoncences killed as well, and it'll be their moral dilemma to do something about protecting the innocent. Those that protect the innocent might find themselves declared a heritic as well. HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:37:05 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Mr. Darknerd" Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.com:80) Subject: Re: "Evil" nations (was Stefan Karameikos) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Huleans are not evil, but the state religion and government is allied with an evil god, and mobility for one's family means supporting the government and religion. In Denagoth, these are wasteslands of humanoids. But there are good people in the eastern nations mentioned in that module. -- On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:26:57 David Knott wrote: >In a message dated 2000-01-20 6:15:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, >habgyp@YAHOO.COM writes: > ><< Personally, I can't recall any > nation that had a Gaz done on it that never got pros > and cons in its own or another Gazzeteer. >> > >On the other hand, the nations of Heldann, Denagoth, and Hule all get >prominent mentions in other sources but since they don't have their own >gazetteers they are pretty consistently depicted as villainous. I have >seen some Net material that makes a start at redeeming the Heldanners. >Does anyone have anything on "good" Huleans or Denagothians? > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.