========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:09:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marco Fossati Subject: Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to everyone. I want to know where to find more informations about Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn(i.e.: people, places and others) more than the few pages written in the PWAs. Pklease don't tell me DotE because it's difficult for me to find it. Thanks, Marco Fossati ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:39:01 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hi to everyone. > I want to know where to find more informations about Bellissaria and the > Isle of Dawn(i.e.: people, places and others) more than the few pages > written in the PWAs. Pklease don't tell me DotE because it's difficult for > me to find it. > Well, M5, "Talons of Night" has some information on the Isle of Dawn, but you'll probably find that harder to locate than DotE. Stan's website (http://dnd.starflung.com/) has some information on IoD & Belly, and also links to other sites that might be helpful. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Toth Subject: Re: Camel Hump & Desert Leviathan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Andrew Toth wrote: > >> You thinking of maybe a sandworm from Dune? Maybe a small one? Just how big >> or small is Camel Hump. Maybe if its diet consisted soley of rock, it >> wouldn't be that bad, perhaps with a slow metabolism? >The sand leviathan is in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium, and yeah, it's like >straight out of Dune. :) The whole area of Camel hump covers about two dozen 8 >mile hexes of territory. (not sure what that works out to in square miles.) Maybe there is only one there, a sort of 'last of it kind thing'. It kept growing and growing until the other leviathans couldn't compete, hence the rest of the race died off. >A creature that size would require a lot of food in all likelihood. Depends on the kind of food I'd suppose. Maybe it consumes solar radiation, occasionally chomping down on minerals to feed its growing bulk. >Plus there's the question of how it would reproduce... Doesn't have to matter. Small area, large creature, any offspring couldn't survive anyway. >Then again, it's also an interesting reason why the space between Robrenn and >Cimarron is mostly uninhabited. Story before science. At the risk of turning this into a Dune crossover, you could always have the worms producing a valuable substance. In Dune, it was the spice. But it could be gems or metals as well, maybe even a cinnabryl like substance. Or maybe, just to change the Red Curse story around, maybe cinnabryl wasn't developed by Nithia, but produced by these sandworms. Or maybe not. :) >Thanks for responding! Sure, I love deserts, especially when its middle of winter, and I am no where near them. Beyowulf Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==- "Fly true, faithful shoe!" Dexter's Lab ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:36:03 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: Cuchulainisle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings all I finally have time to submit the info I've come up with. This is being written right out of my head without any proofreading so please excuse any mistakes. Also there is more so if anyone shows an interest I will post it as time allows. To Koronius the sage >From Darien Moonedge at the Grey Minstrel Inn,Mirros Here is the first of the information we agreed upon at our last meeting. I hope it is useful to you and you feel it is adequate payment for your research on my behalf. First off I feel I should reply to the questions you posed to me. 1. Despite my white hair,yellow eyes, and pale complexion I am not a shadowelf.Neither am a member of any of the elven clans listed in the tome you provided me, although I would speculate that the Callarii may be distant relatives. I was born in a city in the mountain range your people call the Dread Peaks. Within a certain mountain peak lies a lake that formed in the basin of a long dead volcano.The city of Cuchulainisle was built upon this lake.Due to the edicts of our ruling council I can be no more specific about its location. My people came to this place fleeing a great catastrophe ages ago. It may have been what your people call the Great Rain of Fire. I am neither a sage nor a historian so I could not say.Lost and starving my people were guided by four heroes from our ancient homeland. Seeking shelter from the elements they enterd some caves which after a lengthy journey led them to the lake. Warmed by heat from below and teeming with fish this seemed a perfect place to stop. In time stone was quarried from within the mountain and a city was constructed upon the many small islands throughout the lake. In time some elves left the confines of the mountain to seek supplies that were not readily available. They found the mountain valleys teeming with life both natural and evil. Nearly decimated by some humanoids the survivors returned to the city with their tale. The Council decided then that with the small number of citizens available at that time that secrecy was their only hope of survival.This policy remains in effect even today. There are a few elves who travel outside the confines of our mountain home. Rangers and druids who patrol the surrounding mountains distracting and drawing away the humanoids who venture to close to the few entry points, and an even smaller few like myself who venture into the world beyond hoping to arrange ties with other elves who can help ensure the survival of my home. What kind of place is Cuchulainisle? Imagine tall towers rising out of the water, linked by bridges and walkways. Small boats winding through a light fog upon the water's surface. All the buildings are alive with flowering vines, many of which bear a multitude of fruits, and a host of birds who nest within the vines. I have not yet seen a place in my short travels that even comes close to its beauty. Well my companions are awakening and I must prepare for the day, in my next missive I will attempt to answer more of your questions without allowing my mind to wander as I see I have done with this one. Darien Moonedge, Bladesinger ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:41:28 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: Cuchulainisle-oops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed whoops, I neglected to add that while my submission is meant to be "in Character" most of the info I have is in a more DM friendly manner. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:20:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brad McMillan Subject: Re: Cuchulainisle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I was born in a city in the mountain range your people call the Dread >Peaks. Within a certain mountain peak lies a lake that formed in the basin >of a long dead volcano.The city of Cuchulainisle was built upon this >lake.Due to the edicts of our ruling council I can be no more specific about >its location. I've heard that the Isle has a fierce battle-cry, and should it ever eat the meat of a dog it would die, sinking in to the sea. ;) *kidding* Fun read, thanks for sending it! :) Slainte Mhath! Brad McMillan "Armchair" Celtic Archae-Anthropologist & Historian ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:00:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Cuchulainisle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad McMillan ha scritto:Fun read, thanks for sending it! :) > Slainte Mhath! > What does this mean? Maybe 'Salve atque Vale' ? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brad McMillan Subject: OT: Gaelic Toast (Was: [MYSTARA] Cuchulainisle) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:00 AM 1/30/00 +0100, you wrote: >Brad McMillan ha scritto:Fun read, thanks for sending it! :) > >> Slainte Mhath! >> > >What does this mean? >Maybe 'Salve atque Vale' ? Pronounced "Shlanche Vah" (if I'm not mistaken), if is gaelic for 'Good Health' to you. 'Slainte' by itself is more "to your health". and both are general used as a Celtic toast, when a more bardic one isn't being spewed. Hehe! ;) Cheers! (hehe) Brad McMillan (Brude Mac a'Mhaoilein) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:42:57 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I've been rather lax on getting these up, but the first session "detail" of my campaign is done and up! I should probably try and get the other three written and up this weekend. If you like them, let me know please. It's rather disconcerning to work in a void of commentary. IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:02:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: site updated MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note that I've updated my website for the first time in a _long_ time. This update includes "Mystaran Pie" and the four Champions of Darokin stories (in the Rivatol section) which are available nowhere else on the web. Feedback on those stories might encourage me to write more... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:15:23 +0000 Reply-To: bing@iccom.com Sender: Mystara Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Mike & Rebecca Harvey Subject: Atzanteotl? In-Reply-To: <20000129.230247.-254585.2.anowack@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I was just reading the Shadow Elves gazetteer and the Schattenalfen file, both of which I downloaded from the TSR site. Anyway, I noticed what appears to be a discrepancy about Atzanteotl. Some of you have probably seen this before, argued it out on the list, and come up with some clever explanation. Anyay it is this: In the Shadow Elves gazetteer, it gives events as follows: A. Elves driven below ground by RoF B. Elves find Aengmor and live there, worshipping Atzanteotl C. Elves flee Aengmor and find Rad's cavern D. Take the name Shadow Elves from the inscription E. Shadow Elves build City of Stars The Schattenalfen file gives events like this: A. Elves driven below ground by RoF B. Shadow Elves build City of Stars C. Schattenalfen driven below ground by Glantri device D. Atziann wanders into hollow world and meets Azcan E. Aztiann becomes Atzanteotl F. Shadow Elves adopt Schattenalfen G. Atzanteotl turns Schattenalfen against Shadow Elves H. Atzanteotl teaches Schattenalfen new architecture I. Upper Schattenalfen build Aengmor Lower Schattenalfen go to Hollow World The SE gaz says that Aztanteotl and Aengmor already existed before the City of the Stars was ever built. The Schattenalfen gaz says the opposite. So which is right? Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bing@iccom.com (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu) Mike Harvey HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html Beaverton, Oregon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 02:18:13 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Alfkajfawieur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm sorry, but i just HAD to give an email a subject heading of a word that i didn't know, such as Atzanteotl and Cuchulainisle. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:58:56 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! Okay, I've gotten all my campaign logs for the last four sessions up. This catches me up to the present now. Enjoy! IronWolf http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Atzanteotl? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I can clarify one or two things; my references are not handy, so it's by memory. Mike & Rebecca Harvey wrote: > > I was just reading the Shadow Elves gazetteer and the Schattenalfen > file, both of which I downloaded from the TSR site. Anyway, I noticed Yeah, good stuff. Get Thibault's Shadow Elves map to go along with that one. It (like everything which Mr. Sarlat has done cartographically) is nothing short of the top-most quality available. > what appears to be a discrepancy about Atzanteotl. Some of you have > probably seen this before, argued it out on the list, and come up > with some clever explanation. Anyay it is this: > Such a task would encompass hundreds of pages. As a veteran of the Wars of Canon, I can vouche for the fact that they are not pretty. When it comes to Atzanteotl, many would suggest that each dungeon master pick and choose between the options presented. Unlike many other questions of canon, the stark contradictions insofar as the Shadow Elves are concerned come from equally highly credible sources. I daresay that they border on the discrepencies related to Blackmoor; interesting that the Shadow Elves are a society which has risen and been defined by relics of that equally- self-contradictory society. ... > B. Elves find Aengmor and live there, worshipping Atzanteotl Point B is not quite correct, if I recall correctly, insofar as the Immortal being worshipped is concerned. Was not it Rafiel who the Shadow Elves fell into worship of? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. And that's only the tip of the proverbial iceberg which is the Shadow Elves. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:27:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Site update Hi, I just added second part of Glantri's Political History to my site. Enjoy. Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:51:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's info on my webpage. It hasn't been updated in a while, but will be shortly (like right after my exams.) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4206 ----- Original Message ----- From: Marco Fossati To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn > Hi to everyone. > I want to know where to find more informations about Bellissaria and the > Isle of Dawn(i.e.: people, places and others) more than the few pages > written in the PWAs. Pklease don't tell me DotE because it's difficult for > me to find it. > Thanks, > Marco Fossati > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:54:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Site update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Where is your page? www.sunpoint.net gives me an excite-like page in Finnish (how do you read that stuf ? :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: harri m�ki To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 5:27 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Site update > Hi, > > I just added second part of Glantri's Political History to my site. Enjoy. > > > Harri > > > Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu > http://www.sunpoint.net > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:30:38 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Old materials, copyright, etc, yeah that old thing again. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes i 've seen these reduced versions of OOP AD&D things.They are much less expensive than they were before and thus more "in our prices". -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:25:36 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Maur cio Oliveira Subject: Gnomes of Highforge (a little late) Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 People were talking about population problems in Highforge and I happened to find very interesting the idea of a tunnel leading out of the city. Actualy I�ve come to think that maybe this tunnel is not Shadow Elven-made nor natural, I beleive the Nithians may have constructed it: Great tunnels going through the mountains, tunnels long lost thhat even the imortals didn�t destruct when trying to exterminate Nithian evidence from the Known World. These tunnels were made without any real purpose, only to serve as a way to let go all the need of greatness of an Emperror and his architect subjects....This tunnels would have been discovered by HighForge inhabitants some time ago and now they could use it for hidding there real numbers. This doesn�t eliminate the possibility of natural "underdark" of SE but those would be much deeper than the Nithian Tunnels. ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:23:28 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: Do ya wanna be a sage? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings All THanks to those who replied to my submission.I'll try to post some more shortly but I wondered if anyone would volunteer to take up the part of Koronius. I figure someone else or even a variety of persons could post questions. I'm sure others would ask things I wouldn't think of thus making the thread more interesting. Once again thanks to all. Kevin "A genius is someone who aims at something others cannot even see, and hits it" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:01:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marco Fossati Subject: Bellissaria and the Isle of Dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who helped me. To Caroletti: send me an email to marcogiulio.fossati@tin.it. Here we can speak in italian. Marco Fossati ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:51:02 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I thought I'd broach this subject, because it's been on my mind lately. When OD&D was written, the scope of 'godly powers' was fairly limited. The Immortals are essentially patterned after a traditional four element system of earth, air, water, and fire. (Which translate to a more scientific matter, thought, time, and energy.) Then of course you got the balance breaker Entropy, which decays the rest. (The Savage Coast guide suggested that the four primary spheres were tied into the inner planes, and that entrophy was tied into the negative material plane, which possibly suggested a sixth 'positive' sphere, but likely you'd classify the four as the collective positive with connections to the elements.) This is not a bad system, I'm not criticizing it! However, I think that game worlds as well as systems can and should change to reflect the needs of the players. The AD&D plane system is, of course, not perfect either, but it does leave a lot of room open for expansion. And 3rd Edition seems to be designed with a 'create your own multiverse' idea to free us entirely from any limitations at all. (Yeah, I know it will also include GreyHawk gods, but that's just for their 'example' campaign setting GreyHawk.) As an example of a possible expansion, perhaps the creation of 'circles' within the spheres could be considered. Earth would likely also include circles of plants, animals, etc. Energy would have magic, fire, and so forth. Immortal special abilities could cross spheres, allowing 'multicircle' immortals, although they would always have a primary sphere. (Loki, for example, would have a place in energy due to his affinity for fire.) Myself, I don't mind the idea of sitting down and working up a new set of Immortals rules to compliment 3E. Any thoughts on the subject? IronWolf http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:25:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this idea has been kicked around a lot before, or at least in my faulty memory it has :D. Lets look at what the D&D multiverse is, shall we? (I'm disregarding the, IMHO, apocryphal cosmology of PC1) Most of my info comes from discussions on the list, the Gold Box, WoTI, and my own thoughts (as an astrophysicist). Existence: There exists a Being(s) known as the Old Ones The Old Ones created the Multiverse. The Multiverse has Five Forces - Defined as Matter, Energy, Time, Thought and Entropy. These forces control all aspects of the Multiverse. (This is akin to the four fundamental fources of the RW universe - Gravity, E/M, Weak, Strong) The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal Hierarchs. Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the balance of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the Multiverse remains in balance. The Multiverse is a collection of realities, much like Feynman's "Sum over all realities" theory. Each reality is equally likely, but switching between realities requires temendous magics or technologies. (in WoTI, Realities are called "Dimensions", but I'll reserve that term for something else). Realitites are defined as vector spaces in 6 or more spatial dimensions. The first three dimensions are known as "normal" dimensions, while dimesnions 3-4-5 are the "nightmare" dimensions. Mortal beings can only exist in four of these dimensions, whereas Immortals exist in 5. However, a being can only perceive one less dimension than that being exists in. (i.e mortals perceive 3, and Immortals perceive 4.) Mortals are of two major types - those that perceive Dimensions 1-2-3 and those that perceive 5-4-3. (note, no Mortal can perceive dimensions greater than the 5th). The Former, are known as "Normals" and the latter are "Nightmare creatures". It is best to consider each type of creature to be mutually exclusive, Normals and Nightmares fear the existence of the other, and their limited perception of the other's existence is frighteneing to them. Immortals exist in all 5 dimensions 1-5. Normals perceive 1-4, while Nightmares perceive 5-2. To an Immortal, the Nightmare/Normal distinction becomes unimportant, as Immortals can perceive each other fully. Old ones perceive every dimension, but exist in their true form in only the 6th and higher dimensions. There are no known creatures that perceive only the 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. There are groups of being known as the "Outer Beings" that do not exist in "Absolute" dimensionality. These beings skip a dimension, and exist in the others. For example, and Outer being may exist in Dimensions 1-3-4-5. Outer Beings may exist in the 6th or higher dimensions, but this is unknown. Outer beings may be the manifestation of errant Old Ones, but this has not been proven. Planar Structure: There exists an infinite number of planes in each reality, the only planes that exist in all the realities are the "Fundamental Planes". These are defined as: The Prime Plane. The 4 Elemental Planes The Ethereal Plane The Astral Plane. The Prime plane is akin to the Universe in the real world. The Four Elements and Five Forces are in perfect balance. Each elemental plane is ruled by a single Element. Every Force, barring Entropy, is usually ascribed to these planes - Matter and Earth, Energy and Fire, Thought and Air, Time and Water. However (and this is this author's opinion) the Five Forces are not part of these planes, and are not conjoined with them. The Forces are independant of planar orientation. The ethereal plane is a murky "soup" in which the Prime Plane and the Elemental Planes float in. (If it can be defined that way!! :) The Ethereal is like the "Shadow" of it's enclosed planes. The Astral Plane is the boundary of the Fundamental Planes. Beyond the Astral the planar orientation is variable among the realities. This leads to the supposition that the Old Ones created the Fundamental Planes only, and the Outer planes were created by the Immortal generations of each reality. Immortals: Immortals are a higher step on the evolutionary ladder than mortals. Immortals exist as beings of pure power, aligned with one of the Five Forces. Immortals are a natural progression from mortality, and the best and brightest mortals are allowed into their ranks upon proving their worth. There are billions of Immortals, a high proportion of which come from the Fundamental Planes in each reality, the rest come from the innumerable outer planes of each reality. Immortals are charged with maintaining the balance of the Five Forces in their reality, and thus, each reality has it's own Full Hierarchs, but there are no more than 5 in each reality. I've rambled on enough, and my head hurts :) Comments? Anyone get this far? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You raise an interesting point. > Lets look at what the D&D multiverse is, shall we? (I'm > disregarding the, IMHO, apocryphal cosmology of PC1) Most of I would, in fact, do quite the same. I am, however, curious as to whether anyone has actually used all of the PC1 rules and, if so, with what degree of success? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:05:28 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like a good bunch of stuff there, SteelAngel. I guess my main beef with it is that I don't agree that everything in life and the universe can be summed up in only five forces with rigid definitions. In particular I wasn't too happy with the idea that each sphere was designed for a specific class and alignment. I'd like to somehow remove those barriers and make a much more flexible system, something that would be compatible with the ideals of 3E, no race/class/alignment limits. IronWolf SteelAngel wrote: > > I think this idea has been kicked around a lot before, or at > least in my faulty memory it has :D. > > Lets look at what the D&D multiverse is, shall we? (I'm > disregarding the, IMHO, apocryphal cosmology of PC1) Most of > my info comes from discussions on the list, the Gold Box, > WoTI, and my own thoughts (as an astrophysicist). > > Existence: > > There exists a Being(s) known as the Old Ones > The Old Ones created the Multiverse. > > The Multiverse has Five Forces - Defined as Matter, Energy, > Time, Thought and Entropy. These forces control all aspects > of the Multiverse. (This is akin to the four fundamental > fources of the RW universe - Gravity, E/M, Weak, Strong) > > The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal Hierarchs. > Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the balance > of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the > Multiverse remains in balance. > > The Multiverse is a collection of realities, much like > Feynman's "Sum over all realities" theory. Each reality is > equally likely, but switching between realities requires > temendous magics or technologies. (in WoTI, Realities are > called "Dimensions", but I'll reserve that term for > something else). > > Realitites are defined as vector spaces in 6 or more spatial > dimensions. The first three dimensions are known as "normal" > dimensions, while dimesnions 3-4-5 are the "nightmare" > dimensions. Mortal beings can only exist in four of these > dimensions, whereas Immortals exist in 5. However, a being > can only perceive one less dimension than that being exists > in. (i.e mortals perceive 3, and Immortals perceive 4.) > > Mortals are of two major types - those that perceive > Dimensions 1-2-3 and those that perceive 5-4-3. (note, no > Mortal can perceive dimensions greater than the 5th). The > Former, are known as "Normals" and the latter are > "Nightmare creatures". It is best to consider each type of > creature to be mutually exclusive, Normals and Nightmares > fear the existence of the other, and their limited > perception of the other's existence is frighteneing to them. > > Immortals exist in all 5 dimensions 1-5. Normals perceive > 1-4, while Nightmares perceive > 5-2. To an Immortal, the Nightmare/Normal distinction > becomes unimportant, as Immortals can perceive each other > fully. > > Old ones perceive every dimension, but exist in their true > form in only the 6th and higher dimensions. > > There are no known creatures that perceive only the > 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. > > There are groups of being known as the "Outer Beings" that > do not exist in "Absolute" dimensionality. These beings skip > a dimension, and exist in the others. For example, and Outer > being may exist in Dimensions 1-3-4-5. Outer Beings may > exist in the 6th or higher dimensions, but this is unknown. > Outer beings may be the manifestation of errant Old Ones, > but this has not been proven. > > Planar Structure: > > There exists an infinite number of planes in each reality, > the only planes that exist in all the realities are the > "Fundamental Planes". These are defined as: > > The Prime Plane. > The 4 Elemental Planes > The Ethereal Plane > The Astral Plane. > > The Prime plane is akin to the Universe in the real world. > The Four Elements and Five Forces are in perfect balance. > > Each elemental plane is ruled by a single Element. Every > Force, barring Entropy, is usually ascribed to these > planes - Matter and Earth, Energy and Fire, Thought and Air, > Time and Water. However (and this is this author's opinion) > the Five Forces are not part of these planes, and are not > conjoined with them. The Forces are independant of planar > orientation. > > The ethereal plane is a murky "soup" in which the Prime > Plane and the Elemental Planes float in. (If it can be > defined that way!! :) The Ethereal is like the "Shadow" of > it's enclosed planes. > > The Astral Plane is the boundary of the Fundamental Planes. > Beyond the Astral the planar orientation is variable among > the realities. This leads to the supposition that the Old > Ones created the Fundamental Planes only, and the Outer > planes were created by the Immortal generations of each > reality. > > Immortals: > > Immortals are a higher step on the evolutionary ladder than > mortals. Immortals exist as beings of pure power, aligned > with one of the Five Forces. Immortals are a natural > progression from mortality, and the best and brightest > mortals are allowed into their ranks upon proving their > worth. There are billions of Immortals, a high proportion of > which come from the Fundamental Planes in each reality, the > rest come from the innumerable outer planes of each reality. > Immortals are charged with maintaining the balance of the > Five Forces in their reality, and thus, each reality has > it's own Full Hierarchs, but there are no more than 5 in > each reality. > > I've rambled on enough, and my head hurts :) > > Comments? Anyone get this far? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:11:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See below for comments... ----- Original Message ----- From: SteelAngel To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 8:25 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E > I think this idea has been kicked around a lot before, or at > least in my faulty memory it has :D. > > Lets look at what the D&D multiverse is, shall we? (I'm > disregarding the, IMHO, apocryphal cosmology of PC1) Most of > my info comes from discussions on the list, the Gold Box, > WoTI, and my own thoughts (as an astrophysicist). > What difference does that make? (By the way, if it matters for what follows I am a theoretical physicist and an astrophysicist). > > > Existence: > > There exists a Being(s) known as the Old Ones > The Old Ones created the Multiverse. Did they, by God? > > The Multiverse has Five Forces - Defined as Matter, Energy, > Time, Thought and Entropy. These forces control all aspects > of the Multiverse. (This is akin to the four fundamental > fources of the RW universe - Gravity, E/M, Weak, Strong) I do not see the connection. Of these only two are long-ranged forces (Gravity and EM), of the other two both are Very short range forces and one is incredibly weak! I do not understand what sort of correspondence you are suggesting. I suppose Gravity couples to matter, so that makes sense. EM couples to charge, I suppose you could call Energy charge, but that is not quite true... I have no idea how the weak or strong interactions (which couple to "flavor" and "color" respectively) correspond to the model. And that leaves Entropy with nothing to correspond to it! > The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal Hierarchs. > Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the balance > of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the > Multiverse remains in balance. What is the fifth force?! > > The Multiverse is a collection of realities, much like > Feynman's "Sum over all realities" theory. Each reality is > equally likely, but switching between realities requires > temendous magics or technologies. (in WoTI, Realities are > called "Dimensions", but I'll reserve that term for > something else). Each reality is not equally likely in the Sum over Histories approach, they are governed by minimizing the Action. The likely realities are those with the least action! > > Realitites are defined as vector spaces in 6 or more spatial > dimensions. The first three dimensions are known as "normal" > dimensions, while dimesnions 3-4-5 are the "nightmare" > dimensions. Mortal beings can only exist in four of these > dimensions, whereas Immortals exist in 5. However, a being > can only perceive one less dimension than that being exists > in. (i.e mortals perceive 3, and Immortals perceive 4.) What about time? > > Mortals are of two major types - those that perceive > Dimensions 1-2-3 and those that perceive 5-4-3. (note, no > Mortal can perceive dimensions greater than the 5th). The > Former, are known as "Normals" and the latter are > "Nightmare creatures". It is best to consider each type of > creature to be mutually exclusive, Normals and Nightmares > fear the existence of the other, and their limited > perception of the other's existence is frighteneing to them. > > > Immortals exist in all 5 dimensions 1-5. Normals perceive > 1-4, while Nightmares perceive > 5-2. To an Immortal, the Nightmare/Normal distinction > becomes unimportant, as Immortals can perceive each other > fully. > > Old ones perceive every dimension, but exist in their true > form in only the 6th and higher dimensions. > > There are no known creatures that perceive only the > 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. If all realities are equally likely, why is this true? > > There are groups of being known as the "Outer Beings" that > do not exist in "Absolute" dimensionality. These beings skip > a dimension, and exist in the others. For example, and Outer > being may exist in Dimensions 1-3-4-5. Outer Beings may > exist in the 6th or higher dimensions, but this is unknown. > Outer beings may be the manifestation of errant Old Ones, > but this has not been proven. > > Planar Structure: > > There exists an infinite number of planes in each reality, > the only planes that exist in all the realities are the > "Fundamental Planes". These are defined as: > > The Prime Plane. > The 4 Elemental Planes > The Ethereal Plane > The Astral Plane. > > The Prime plane is akin to the Universe in the real world. > The Four Elements and Five Forces are in perfect balance. > > Each elemental plane is ruled by a single Element. Every > Force, barring Entropy, is usually ascribed to these > planes - Matter and Earth, Energy and Fire, Thought and Air, > Time and Water. However (and this is this author's opinion) > the Five Forces are not part of these planes, and are not > conjoined with them. The Forces are independant of planar > orientation. > > The ethereal plane is a murky "soup" in which the Prime > Plane and the Elemental Planes float in. (If it can be > defined that way!! :) The Ethereal is like the "Shadow" of > it's enclosed planes. > > The Astral Plane is the boundary of the Fundamental Planes. > Beyond the Astral the planar orientation is variable among > the realities. This leads to the supposition that the Old > Ones created the Fundamental Planes only, and the Outer > planes were created by the Immortal generations of each > reality. > > Immortals: > > Immortals are a higher step on the evolutionary ladder than > mortals. Immortals exist as beings of pure power, aligned > with one of the Five Forces. Immortals are a natural > progression from mortality, and the best and brightest > mortals are allowed into their ranks upon proving their > worth. There are billions of Immortals, a high proportion of > which come from the Fundamental Planes in each reality, the > rest come from the innumerable outer planes of each reality. > Immortals are charged with maintaining the balance of the > Five Forces in their reality, and thus, each reality has > it's own Full Hierarchs, but there are no more than 5 in > each reality. > > I've rambled on enough, and my head hurts :) > > Comments? Anyone get this far? Yes, some of what you have said is good. I think trying to tie this to RW physics is a BIG mistake! Give it its own rules and leave it at that. We do not know the rules of the RW, and quantum gravity is still a long, long way off. Let's stick to what we can invent without starting down this road... George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Old materials, copyright, etc, Paul wrote: >Quite a serious point this one, in Britain - or at least in the parts of >Britain I am in contact with Roleplaying has declined badly over the last 3-5 years. When I came to Cardiff (Wales) 6 years >ago there was a strong roleplaying society at the University and several >specialist shops, not to mention the huge collection at the Virgin Megastore. Too true. I was in Cardiff last April/May, and I spent a couple of hours checking out the shops around the Castle and University area. All I found was one Games Workshop outlet, with nothing but Warhammer 40K. Although the staff were very helpful, they didn't seem to have any idea if there were any real roleplaying shops nearby. Ah well... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:13:23 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Old materials, copyright, etc, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there are some real nice stores here in CA (USA) but there aren't that many of them around. those that are here are nice. i prefer online though, because there are infinite resources. Oh, mr. ADMIN!!!!! LOOKEY HERE!!!!! there's something wrong with the MML, when i tried to reply to Geoff's letter, it gave me his addy instead of the lists, and i'm on AOL so you know they're not the problem (hehehe) Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:36:32 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-30 7:51:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ironwolf@EWA.NET writes: << When OD&D was written, the scope of 'godly powers' was fairly limited. The Immortals are essentially patterned after a traditional four element system of earth, air, water, and fire. (Which translate to a more scientific matter, thought, time, and energy.) Then of course you got the balance breaker Entropy, which decays the rest. (The Savage Coast guide suggested that the four primary spheres were tied into the inner planes, and that entrophy was tied into the negative material plane, which possibly suggested a sixth 'positive' sphere, but likely you'd classify the four as the collective positive with connections to the elements.)>> That would be the Sphere of Integration mentioned in PC 1. For reasons mentioned in another message, I would suggest that it and the Sphere of Entropy cannot exist at the same time, and that the Old Ones promote its goals in its absence. No Immortals can align themselves with this Sphere, and mortals who do so receive no assistance from superior beings. <> That is definitely an idea worth considering, especially now that we have a little bit of concrete information about the different clerical spell domains. I could see some of these domains as being firmly in a single Sphere, with others being shared by two or more Spheres. However, somebody would have to run the Immortal descriptions in WotI by the clerical spell domains from 3E to evaluate the exact allocation. But I admit that I like the idea of an Immortal such as Loki having a split affiliation. While we can take previously published material as an indication that his true loyalty is to the Sphere of Entropy, clearly he has enough abilities associated with the Sphere of Energy to leave some room for doubt on that issue. BTW, in another message I think I may have come up with a way to incor- porate Mystara into the standard AD&D cosmology without doing violence to the unique features of either game universe. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:36:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-01-30 9:28:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, kjp@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU writes: << I would, in fact, do quite the same. I am, however, curious as to whether anyone has actually used all of the PC1 rules and, if so, with what degree of success? >> Actually PC 1 fits into the general scheme quite well, with a very rough matchup between spheres and dimensions. As far as mortals and Immortals are concerned, the Sphere of Integration described in PC 1 no longer exists, if indeed it ever did. This makes that sphere correspond to the 6th or Vortex dimension, cut off from mortal or Immortal access by the Old Ones. The matchup of the other spheres with the other dimensions is more subjective, as normal and nightmare creatures would reach different conclusions. Each would identify the Sphere of Entropy with the dimension that they do not exist in and would probably identify the Sphere of Energy with the dimension that they exist in but cannot perceive. So, in short, nothing from PC 1 affects the multiversal structure as perceived by any being of less than Old One status. Both mortals and Immortals must have one of the six possible dimensions or spheres denied to them, and the Old Ones accomplish this by denying them access to either the Sphere of Entropy or the Sphere of Integration. Since the Sphere of Entropy clearly exists in the current form of the multiverse, the Sphere of Integration is the one that is hidden away by the Old Ones. The only aspect of PC 1 that would have an obvious effect is that the fairy races by their very nature would be incapable of achieving Immortality. Inspired in part by Hans Christian Anderson's "The Little Mermaid", I would posit that the only way for such beings to achieve Immortality is to quest for mortality first. Once they succeed in becoming mortal, they have one human lifetime in which to become Immortal or else they go to the same afterlife as other mortals. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:36:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: An attempt at a comprehensive multiversal structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, here is how I would design a multiverse in which Mystara and the standard AD&D cosmology could co-exist: The core of the multiverse is the Ethereal plane, within which exist many meta-planes, planes, and demi-planes. At its center are the Inner Planes, which consist of the four Elemental planes, the Positive and Negative Material planes, and various quasi- and para-elemental planes. As the source of physical reality, these Inner Planes are the only elements shared throughout the multiverse. The difference between a plane and a demi-plane within the Ethereal is primarily a matter of degree in terms of size, age, and stability. Generally, a demi-plane is small, young, and subject to complete destruction by outside forces, while a plane is larger, older, and so well established that its destruction is inconceivable. What they have in common is being cut off from anything that might be called an "Astral Plane" -- the only Powers that can affect them are those native to the Ethereal and Inner Planes. Athas (Dark Sun) and Laterre certainly form such planes, and it is possible that Cerilia (Birthright) does as well. A meta-plane, on the other hand, is connected with both the Ethereal Plane and something outside it. The two known meta-planes are the Light Prime and the Dark Prime. The Light Prime is a single Prime Material Plane filled with phlogiston and crystal spheres and connected with the Astral and Outer Planes as described in the Planescape setting. No plane or meta-plane outside of the Light Prime, however, has any direct connection to these Outer Planes. Greyspace and Torilspace (the sphere of the Forgotten Realms) are certainly within it, as was Krynnspace (the sphere of Dragonlance) until mysterious events removed it to its own plane. Anyone with material from both the Spelljammer and Planescape settings has a thorough knowledge of the meta-plane known as the Light Prime. The Dark Prime is centered on the mysterious dark powers of the Ravenloft setting. Within it are the planes of Darkness, Ravenloft, Gothic Earth, and Mystara, in increasing distance from the dark powers themselves. One feature that all of these planes have in common is that magic associated with aligned "Good" or "Evil" is totally ineffective anywhere in this meta-plane. However, while evil alignment is undetectable, evil actions still have consequences, whether in the form of "Powers checks" in Ravenloft and Gothic Earth or in the form of association with the Sphere of Entropy in Mystara. While the Dark Prime is cut off from the Outer Planes accessible from the Light Prime, it has the most direct access to the Astral Dimension and the dimensions beyond it. This "Astral Dimension" corresponds exactly to what is called the "Astral Plane" in WotI, but it is clear that this Astral plane/dimension is a totally different reality from that described in the Planescape setting. Within this Astral Dimension are most of the home planes of the Mystaran Immortals, including the five major planes that are associated with each of the five spheres of Immortal power. The elemental "circle of dominance" in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia describes not the relationship among the elemental planes per se but the interactions among the corresponding major planes in the Astral Dimension. >From the Astral Dimension one may access the Nightmare Dimension (home of the diaboli and other such beings) and the Vortex Dimensiion (blocked off by the Immortals). Anyone attempting to access the Normal Dimension from the Astral Dimension would first be drawn to the Darkness Plane in the Dark Prime. Nobody who ever entered that plane has ever left alive. Fortunately, most interdimensional travelers are able to detect the malevolent influences of the dark powers and so avoid that plane as well as the planes of Ravenloft and Gothic Earth. As a result, the Mystara plane is the obvious point of contact between the Normal Dimension and any other dimensions. Finally, here is how I would resolve the "canonical" points of contact between the "Light" and "Dark" Primes: 1) The acquisition of Red Steel by some natives of Sigil is the easiest to explain. While there is no DIRECT access between Sigil and Mystara, INDIRECT access via the Deep Ethereal is certainly possible. 2) The placement of various Mystaran Immortals in the Outer Planes of the "Light Prime" has no basis in reality but is simply the result of an attempt by a native of Sigil at rationalizing information that he received from a Mystaran. 3) The co-existence of the Norse Powers in both the Light Prime and the Dark Prime has sages in both meta-planes stumped. The most likely explanation is that they originated on Gothic Earth but sent forth avatars into the "Light Prime" to assure their continued existence past the prophesied Ragnarok that would certainly destroy them at some unspecified future date in the "Dark Prime". In the plane of Mystara they incarnated as mortal heroes who succeeded in attaining Immortality and then took up all the powers that were associated with their true names. Whether they have succeeded in establishing a power base that will survive Ragnarok remains to be seen. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:55:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Did they, by God? We are assuming that they did. > I do not see the connection. Of these only two are long-ranged > forces (Gravity and EM), of the other two both are Very short > range forces and one is incredibly weak! > > I do not understand what sort of correspondence you are > suggesting. I suppose Gravity couples to matter, so that > makes sense. EM couples to charge, I suppose you could > call Energy charge, but that is not quite true... > > I have no idea how the weak or strong interactions (which > couple to "flavor" and "color" respectively) correspond to > the model. And that leaves Entropy with nothing to correspond > to it! Ah! not my use of the word "akin". I said that they are Fundamental Forces, _like_ the Fundamental Forces in the real world. I didn't mean that there would be a one-to-one correspondance in any way! :) > > > The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal Hierarchs. > > Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the balance > > of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the > > Multiverse remains in balance. > > What is the fifth force?! Five Forces - Matter, Energy, Time, Thought, Entropy. I defined these in my second paragraph. > Each reality is not equally likely in the Sum over Histories > approach, they are governed by minimizing the Action. > The likely realities are those with the least action! Again, my use of the word "like" (jeez, I should remember this when I'm finishing my Thesis!) I was only name-dropping Feynman for those who are knowledgable of his work, as before I was not using his theory, just an idea. The mere presence of "magic" renders most normal physics completely moot - neither mass nor energy is conserved! > What about time? Time, as described in the Gold Box, DM's guide, page 2 - "Time, often mistakenly called the Fourth Dimension, is not a direction but one of the Spheres (Forces)" > > There are no known creatures that perceive only the > > 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. > > If all realities are equally likely, why is this true? Interesting question. Read what I said. "no known creaures" != "no creatures" > Yes, some of what you have said is good. I think trying to tie > this to RW physics is a BIG mistake! Give it its own rules and > leave it at that. We do not know the rules of the RW, and > quantum gravity is still a long, long way off. Let's stick to what > we can invent without starting down this road... I am inventing it, and I'm not tying it in any way to RW physics, as that would be insane. What I did do was simply give a few examples of some real-world bases for my ideas - Much like how "Star Trek" uses real Physics words linked together to make some crazy device work. (ever notice how everyhting is a tachyon this, or tachyon that? Hmm..) I'm not expecting to come up with a GUT from playing a game. Neither do I expect to derive a GUT for Mystara. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually PC 1 fits into the general scheme quite well, with a very rough > matchup between spheres and dimensions. As far as mortals and > Immortals are concerned, the Sphere of Integration described in PC 1 > no longer exists, if indeed it ever did. This makes that sphere correspond > to the 6th or Vortex dimension, cut off from mortal or Immortal access by > the Old Ones. The matchup of the other spheres with the other dimensions > is more subjective, as normal and nightmare creatures would reach different > conclusions. Each would identify the Sphere of Entropy with the dimension > that they do not exist in and would probably identify the Sphere of Energy > with the dimension that they exist in but cannot perceive. Hmm. Interesting. Maybe the Sphere (I hate that word).. Force of Entropy overwhelms the 4 other Fundamental forces, and drives them into disarray. The Force of Integration is then put into motion by the Old Ones to regain the balance until everything is static again. Then the Old Ones re-introduce Entropy in an unending cycle. Kind of like fiddling with the cosmological constants, if you will (of course, to spare myself the verbal beating from my colleagues on the list, this is _nothing like Einstein's problem_) Actually, I think this idea fits in fine. I just don't like the Fey thinking they are all high-and-mighty-fallen-immortals crap. I disregard that. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:51:16 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: titan games offers this week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (D&D) (Basic Rules) Basic Boxed Set (Red Dragon cover, with chits & B2 module) (1001) (rulebook cover colored, B2 insert loose)[$16, Box G-Contents G] Basic Rules (Erol Otus Cover) (2014) [$7, NM], [$6, VF] B3: Palace of the Silver Princess (9044) [$14.5, G] B4: The Lost City (9049) [$17.5, VF] (Companion Rules) Set 3: Companion Rules Boxed Set (1013) [$14.5, Box VF-Contents VF] CM1: Test of the Warlords (9117) [$9, VF] CM3: Sabre River (9119) [$13, F] CM4: Earthshaker! (9128) [$15.5, VF] CM6: Where Chaos Reigns (9158) [$13, VF] (Expert Rules) Expert Rules Boxed Set (Erol Otus cover) (1012) [$15, Box VF-Contents F] X2: Castle Amber (9051) [$13.5, F] X5: Temple of Death (9069) [$9.5, F] XS2: Thunderdelve Mountain (9157) [$9, F] (Immortal Rules) Set 5: Immortal Rules Boxed Set (1017) [$21, Box VF-Contents NM] IM1: The Immortal Storm (9171) [$10.5, VF] IM2: The Wrath of Olympus (9189) [$11.5, VF] (Master Rules) Set 4: Master Rules Boxed Set (1021) [$18, Box F-Contents NM] AC7: Master Player Screen (9156) [$14, NM] M1: Into the Maelstrom (9159) [$9, VF] M2: Vengeance of Alphaks (9148) [$12, VF] -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:53:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: An attempt at a comprehensive multiversal structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why don't we simply create something that those of us with OD&D or non-AD&D Systems can use without having to purchase more stuff. I, for one, am not interested in being forced to purchase the AD&D Planescape stuff... George ----- Original Message ----- From: David Knott To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 10:36 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] An attempt at a comprehensive multiversal structure > Okay, here is how I would design a multiverse in which Mystara and the > standard AD&D cosmology could co-exist: > > The core of the multiverse is the Ethereal plane, within which exist many > meta-planes, planes, and demi-planes. At its center are the Inner Planes, > which consist of the four Elemental planes, the Positive and Negative > Material planes, and various quasi- and para-elemental planes. As the > source of physical reality, these Inner Planes are the only elements > shared throughout the multiverse. > > The difference between a plane and a demi-plane within the Ethereal is > primarily a matter of degree in terms of size, age, and stability. Generally, > a demi-plane is small, young, and subject to complete destruction by > outside forces, while a plane is larger, older, and so well established that > its destruction is inconceivable. What they have in common is being cut > off from anything that might be called an "Astral Plane" -- the only Powers > that can affect them are those native to the Ethereal and Inner Planes. > Athas (Dark Sun) and Laterre certainly form such planes, and it is possible > that Cerilia (Birthright) does as well. > > A meta-plane, on the other hand, is connected with both the Ethereal Plane > and something outside it. The two known meta-planes are the Light Prime > and the Dark Prime. > > The Light Prime is a single Prime Material Plane filled with phlogiston and > crystal spheres and connected with the Astral and Outer Planes as described > in the Planescape setting. No plane or meta-plane outside of the Light Prime, > however, has any direct connection to these Outer Planes. Greyspace and > Torilspace (the sphere of the Forgotten Realms) are certainly within it, as > was Krynnspace (the sphere of Dragonlance) until mysterious events removed > it to its own plane. Anyone with material from both the Spelljammer and > Planescape settings has a thorough knowledge of the meta-plane known as > the Light Prime. > > The Dark Prime is centered on the mysterious dark powers of the Ravenloft > setting. Within it are the planes of Darkness, Ravenloft, Gothic Earth, and > Mystara, in increasing distance from the dark powers themselves. One feature > that all of these planes have in common is that magic associated with aligned > "Good" or "Evil" is totally ineffective anywhere in this meta-plane. > However, > while evil alignment is undetectable, evil actions still have consequences, > whether in the form of "Powers checks" in Ravenloft and Gothic Earth or in > the form of association with the Sphere of Entropy in Mystara. > > While the Dark Prime is cut off from the Outer Planes accessible from the > Light Prime, it has the most direct access to the Astral Dimension and > the dimensions beyond it. This "Astral Dimension" corresponds exactly > to what is called the "Astral Plane" in WotI, but it is clear that this Astral > plane/dimension is a totally different reality from that described in the > Planescape setting. Within this Astral Dimension are most of the home > planes of the Mystaran Immortals, including the five major planes that are > associated with each of the five spheres of Immortal power. The elemental > "circle of dominance" in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia describes not the > relationship among the elemental planes per se but the interactions among > the corresponding major planes in the Astral Dimension. > > >From the Astral Dimension one may access the Nightmare Dimension (home > of the diaboli and other such beings) and the Vortex Dimensiion (blocked off > by the Immortals). Anyone attempting to access the Normal Dimension from > the Astral Dimension would first be drawn to the Darkness Plane in the Dark > Prime. Nobody who ever entered that plane has ever left alive. Fortunately, > most interdimensional travelers are able to detect the malevolent influences > of > the dark powers and so avoid that plane as well as the planes of Ravenloft > and Gothic Earth. As a result, the Mystara plane is the obvious point of > contact > between the Normal Dimension and any other dimensions. > > Finally, here is how I would resolve the "canonical" points of contact between > the "Light" and "Dark" Primes: > > 1) The acquisition of Red Steel by some natives of Sigil is the easiest to > explain. While there is no DIRECT access between Sigil and Mystara, > INDIRECT access via the Deep Ethereal is certainly possible. > > 2) The placement of various Mystaran Immortals in the Outer Planes of the > "Light Prime" has no basis in reality but is simply the result of an attempt > by a native of Sigil at rationalizing information that he received from a > Mystaran. > > 3) The co-existence of the Norse Powers in both the Light Prime and the > Dark Prime has sages in both meta-planes stumped. The most likely > explanation is that they originated on Gothic Earth but sent forth avatars > into the "Light Prime" to assure their continued existence past the prophesied > Ragnarok that would certainly destroy them at some unspecified future date > in the "Dark Prime". In the plane of Mystara they incarnated as mortal heroes > who succeeded in attaining Immortality and then took up all the powers that > were associated with their true names. Whether they have succeeded in > establishing a power base that will survive Ragnarok remains to be seen. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:56:38 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am constantly driven crazy by Star Trek, not because they use the terminology is silly ways, but because people then believe that they understand it! :-) George ----- Original Message ----- From: SteelAngel To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E > > Did they, by God? > > We are assuming that they did. > > > I do not see the connection. Of these only two are > long-ranged > > forces (Gravity and EM), of the other two both are Very > short > > range forces and one is incredibly weak! > > > > I do not understand what sort of correspondence you are > > suggesting. I suppose Gravity couples to matter, so that > > makes sense. EM couples to charge, I suppose you could > > call Energy charge, but that is not quite true... > > > > I have no idea how the weak or strong interactions (which > > couple to "flavor" and "color" respectively) correspond to > > the model. And that leaves Entropy with nothing to > correspond > > to it! > > Ah! not my use of the word "akin". I said that they are > Fundamental Forces, _like_ the Fundamental Forces in the > real world. I didn't mean that there would be a one-to-one > correspondance in any way! :) > > > > > > The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal > Hierarchs. > > > Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the > balance > > > of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the > > > Multiverse remains in balance. > > > > What is the fifth force?! > > Five Forces - Matter, Energy, Time, Thought, Entropy. I > defined these in my second paragraph. > > > Each reality is not equally likely in the Sum over > Histories > > approach, they are governed by minimizing the Action. > > The likely realities are those with the least action! > > Again, my use of the word "like" (jeez, I should remember > this when I'm finishing my Thesis!) I was only name-dropping > Feynman for those who are knowledgable of his work, as > before I was not using his theory, just an idea. The mere > presence of "magic" renders most normal physics completely > moot - neither mass nor energy is conserved! > > > > What about time? > > Time, as described in the Gold Box, DM's guide, page 2 - > > "Time, often mistakenly called the Fourth Dimension, is not > a direction but one of the Spheres (Forces)" > > > > There are no known creatures that perceive only the > > > 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. > > > > If all realities are equally likely, why is this true? > > Interesting question. Read what I said. "no known creaures" > != "no creatures" > > > Yes, some of what you have said is good. I think trying to > tie > > this to RW physics is a BIG mistake! Give it its own rules > and > > leave it at that. We do not know the rules of the RW, and > > quantum gravity is still a long, long way off. Let's stick > to what > > we can invent without starting down this road... > > I am inventing it, and I'm not tying it in any way to RW > physics, as that would be insane. What I did do was simply > give a few examples of some real-world bases for my ideas - > Much like how "Star Trek" uses real Physics words linked > together to make some crazy device work. (ever notice how > everyhting is a tachyon this, or tachyon that? Hmm..) I'm > not expecting to come up with a GUT from playing a game. > Neither do I expect to derive a GUT for Mystara. > > Ethan > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:35:45 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E In-Reply-To: <3894F4F0.D0CA74DB@student.umass.edu>; from kjp@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU on Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 09:35:28PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 09:35:28PM -0500, Kevin Powers wrote: > You raise an interesting point. > > > Lets look at what the D&D multiverse is, shall we? (I'm > > disregarding the, IMHO, apocryphal cosmology of PC1) Most of > > I would, in fact, do quite the same. I am, however, curious as to > whether anyone has actually used all of the PC1 rules and, if so, with > what degree of success? I'm planning to use the cyclical-multiverse idea in PC1 in my campaign. Essentially, in about 80 years time from the current point in the campaign, there will be a lot less immortals hanging around due to the effects of the star of vanya and artifact of chaos (see http://dnd.starflung.com/starvany.html http://dnd.starflung.com/star2.html for what I'm basing this on - with some differences IMC) By then the Sphere of Entropy will have (due to various machinations) roughly the same number of immortals as the other 4 put together. Thanatos will then start a war to remove the current hierarchs and place himself and 3 others as the new ones. There's more to it than that but that's the basic idea. Should be fun - oh yeah, and the PC's will get a chance to stop or even reverse this, natch. (At that stage some will be Immortal themselves...) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:59:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I study Aerospace Engineering, so imagine how I feel while looking at movies like Apollo 13, Top Gun etc. And those are some of the better ones. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: George Hrabovsky To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, 3E > I am constantly driven crazy by Star Trek, not because they > use the terminology is silly ways, but because people then > believe that they understand it! :-) > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SteelAngel > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 10:55 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystaran Multiverse (LONG!!) was: Immortal Redesign, > 3E > > > > > Did they, by God? > > > > We are assuming that they did. > > > > > I do not see the connection. Of these only two are > > long-ranged > > > forces (Gravity and EM), of the other two both are Very > > short > > > range forces and one is incredibly weak! > > > > > > I do not understand what sort of correspondence you are > > > suggesting. I suppose Gravity couples to matter, so that > > > makes sense. EM couples to charge, I suppose you could > > > call Energy charge, but that is not quite true... > > > > > > I have no idea how the weak or strong interactions (which > > > couple to "flavor" and "color" respectively) correspond to > > > the model. And that leaves Entropy with nothing to > > correspond > > > to it! > > > > Ah! not my use of the word "akin". I said that they are > > Fundamental Forces, _like_ the Fundamental Forces in the > > real world. I didn't mean that there would be a one-to-one > > correspondance in any way! :) > > > > > > > > > The Guardians of the Five Forces are the Immortal > > Hierarchs. > > > > Each Full Hierarch is charged with maintaining the > > balance > > > > of the Five, so that none gain ascendancy, and the > > > > Multiverse remains in balance. > > > > > > What is the fifth force?! > > > > Five Forces - Matter, Energy, Time, Thought, Entropy. I > > defined these in my second paragraph. > > > > > Each reality is not equally likely in the Sum over > > Histories > > > approach, they are governed by minimizing the Action. > > > The likely realities are those with the least action! > > > > Again, my use of the word "like" (jeez, I should remember > > this when I'm finishing my Thesis!) I was only name-dropping > > Feynman for those who are knowledgable of his work, as > > before I was not using his theory, just an idea. The mere > > presence of "magic" renders most normal physics completely > > moot - neither mass nor energy is conserved! > > > > > > > What about time? > > > > Time, as described in the Gold Box, DM's guide, page 2 - > > > > "Time, often mistakenly called the Fourth Dimension, is not > > a direction but one of the Spheres (Forces)" > > > > > > There are no known creatures that perceive only the > > > > 2nd-3rd-4th dimensions. > > > > > > If all realities are equally likely, why is this true? > > > > Interesting question. Read what I said. "no known creaures" > > != "no creatures" > > > > > Yes, some of what you have said is good. I think trying to > > tie > > > this to RW physics is a BIG mistake! Give it its own rules > > and > > > leave it at that. We do not know the rules of the RW, and > > > quantum gravity is still a long, long way off. Let's stick > > to what > > > we can invent without starting down this road... > > > > I am inventing it, and I'm not tying it in any way to RW > > physics, as that would be insane. What I did do was simply > > give a few examples of some real-world bases for my ideas - > > Much like how "Star Trek" uses real Physics words linked > > together to make some crazy device work. (ever notice how > > everyhting is a tachyon this, or tachyon that? Hmm..) I'm > > not expecting to come up with a GUT from playing a game. > > Neither do I expect to derive a GUT for Mystara. > > > > Ethan > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:41:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] An attempt at a comprehensive multiversal structure] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: > >The difference between a plane and a demi-plane within the Ethereal is >primarily a matter of degree in terms of size, age, and stability. = >Generally, a demi-plane is small, young, and subject to complete >destru= ction by outside forces, while a plane is larger, older, and so >well establish= ed that its destruction is inconceivable. What they have >in common is bein= g cut off from anything that might be called an "Astral >Plane" -- the only Pow= ers that can affect them are those native to the >Ethereal and Inner Planes. = Athas (Dark Sun) and Laterre certainly form >such planes, and it is possible th= at Cerilia (Birthright) does as well. I'm curious why you place Laterre here and Gothic Earth elsewhere. I woul= d think that, if not the same place, then they should at least fall into a similar category (in this case, falling into the Normal Dimension, if I follow your terminology correctly). >magic associated with aligned "Good" or "Evil" is totally ineffective >anywhere in this meta-plane. Yet Detect Evil and Protection from Evil spells work just fine on Mystara= =2E How do you account for this? >Finally, here is how I would resolve the "canonical" points of contact >between the "Light" and "Dark" Primes: > >3) The co-existence of the Norse Powers in both the Light Prime and the >Dark Prime has sages in both meta-planes stumped. The most likely >explanation is that they originated on Gothic Earth but sent forth >avat= ars into the "Light Prime" to assure their continued existence past >the prophesied Ragnarok that would certainly destroy them at some >unspecifie= d future date in the "Dark Prime". In the plane of Mystara >they incarnate= d as mortal heroes who succeeded in attaining Immortality >and then took up al= l the powers that were associated with their true >names. Whether they have succeeded in establishing a power base that >will survive Ragnarok remain= s to be seen. Again, I'm curious as to how you differentiate between Gothic Ceath and Laterre, here. Both are based on RW Earth, albeit with some minor differe= nces. (Again, I'd probably just call Gothic Earth- I assume you refer to the GE= from the Masque of the Red Death setting- I'd just call it the same as Laterre= , just a few centuries down the road from where the d'Ambrevilles left it. = But YMMV.) Perhaps one set of Norse gods/immortals came from Laterre, and the other = from Gothic Earth, then? (If you are to separate them). This might tie into the premise of IM2: Wrath of Olympus, when the Immort= als are punished for taking the names of the Olympian gods. The implication, = then, would be that there are powers beyond the immortals- that came before per= haps; maybe the Old Ones?- whose names and aspects are known to them, but whom = it is taboo to emulate. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:49:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Mortal Rad or Immortal Etienne? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Somebody recently quoted source material saying that newly-elevated Immortals have one year to put their mortal business in order then leave the Prime. Though this has been dismissed by everyone (because it's fair game for Immortals to keep mortal ids), it has got me wondering: What if it means the Immortals have one year during which they can use their old mortal id, then must abandon it. Thereafter, they can still use mortal ids, just not their mortal self anymore. AFAIK no Immortal but Rad and Benekander use their own mortal ids (though correct me if I'm wrong). And both have no Immortal sponsors, so they don't know the rules (Benekander) or don't see why they should apply to them (Rad). Rad's example shows that there's nothing that prevents it, only Immortal regulations. Thus, the whole WotI debate could easily include that as well: Rad doesn't accept his Sphere's (ie Ixion's) rulings, including hierarchy, Radiance use, and no old mortal id use. (basically Rad is bending every rules that won't actually prompt a direct intervention against him, like intervening in Manifestion Form on the Prime.) ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:34:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii IronWolf writes: >>I thought I'd broach this subject, because it's been on my mind lately. When OD&D was written, the scope of 'godly powers' was fairly limited. The Immortals are essentially patterned after a traditional four element system of earth, air, water, and fire. (Which translate to a more scientific matter, thought, time, and energy.) Then of course you got the balance breaker Entropy, which decays the rest. (The Savage Coast guide suggested that the four primary spheres were tied into the inner planes, and that entrophy was tied into the negative material plane, which possibly suggested a sixth 'positive' sphere, but likely you'd classify the four as the collective positive with connections to the elements.)<< SteelAngel summed up a lot of what has gone on around the list (IIRC). I like the distinction between Realities and Dimensions. I also really like the idea of mortals and immortals percieving conjunctive dimensions, while the OBs percieve disjunctive ones. I'm going off on a tangent for a moment, but have you read any David Brin? In his (Sci-Fi) Uplift Books, he describes (IIRC) eight different classifications of life. Oxy breathers and hydro breathers being the two most important in Galictic society. The Retired Order are oxybreathers who have transcended beyond the concerns of Gal Society, and Trancendants are the merger of Oxy Retired, and Hydro Retired (something that is abhorent - and totally unknown - to most oxy-breathers...even those in the Retired Order). The parallel I am trying to make with Mystara is this: perhaps Old Ones are a merger of two seperate immortals - one from the Normal Dimension, and one from the Nightmare Dimension. Just a thought...now back to the main discussion. >>As an example of a possible expansion, perhaps the creation of 'circles' within the spheres could be considered. Earth would likely also include circles of plants, animals, etc. Energy would have magic, fire, and so forth. Immortal special abilities could cross spheres, allowing 'multicircle' immortals, although they would always have a primary sphere. (Loki, for example, would have a place in energy due to his affinity for fire.) Myself, I don't mind the idea of sitting down and working up a new set of Immortals rules to compliment 3E.<< I think this is a great idea, and would be more than happy to kick some ideas around. While I like the use of Dimensions 1-6, the sphere system does seem a little too restrictive. I'm not sure that we need to wait till 3E is out before we start designing our own circles. I think that it might be a good idea to design the circles for Mystaran immortals, and then work our way down from there (down to the 3E clerics of course). We can (and should) use the 3E rules for clerics, but should we be limited to the circles that they provide? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:45:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Mortal Rad or Immortal Etienne?] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Herve Musseau wrote: > >AFAIK no Immortal but Rad and Benekander use their own mortal ids (thoug= h >correct me if I'm wrong). And both have no Immortal sponsors, so they >d= on't know the rules (Benekander) or don't see why they should apply to >them (Rad). In Benekander's case, I'd also point out that a) his mortal identity was unknown to the populace of Mystara to begin with, and b) even if it had b= een, Rheddrian Benekander (the mortal) has been dead for millenia and any know= ledge of who he might have been has long since been lost to the people of moder= n-day Mystara. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:47:50 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E In-Reply-To: <3894DC76.E66F2DD@ewa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, IronWolf wrote: > As an example of a possible expansion, perhaps the creation of 'circles' within > the spheres could be considered. Earth would likely also include circles of > plants, animals, etc. Energy would have magic, fire, and so forth. Immortal > special abilities could cross spheres, allowing 'multicircle' immortals, I think it would be an unecessary complication, given there's only 20-30 major immortals anyway. In the case of Loki, I see Entropy as including twisted versions of all the other spheres since it's opposed to all of them, so his fire powers are related to the destructive aspects of fire. The idea of Immortals crossing spheres negates the whole concept, IMO. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are HE and other types above 50 mm. --Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:19:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic - the end MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/00 3:45:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << Well, I hate to sling counterquotes, but in the Ylaraum gaz, you may find Gaz 2, p.14, 2nd collumn, "The Alphatian colonial forces were of extremely poor quality, depending on the fearsome firepower of their magical support units. Al-Kalim's mounted archers and warriors made short work of the magical brigades, shattering their morale with showers of arrows, then maneuvering around the disorganized infantry and charging through the magic users ranks with devastating effect.">> i was wondering if you were going to respond with that one. but note the "colonial forces" not the alph invasion forces that conquered the ylari lands hundreds of years earlier. if you look at the same paragraph, in the previous sentence, you'll see that the colonial forces were heavily dependant upon the local units. when AK struck he swayed these units to his standard, bolstering his own strengths while simultaneously eroding the alph forces. anyway i don't think that you can compare the invasion forces to those AK defeated. that's why avoided its use in the preceding message. i could also argue that the section the above quote was taken from is subject to a degree of pro-ylari preceptions as it was not included with the DM's historical section. [snip] anyway....i am ending my participation in this thread. it's becoming all too familiar in its redundancy and miscommunication. i don't have the time or patience for it anymore. as far as the alph fighters, do what you want with them....just give them their proper due. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:19:36 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/25/00 11:59:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > general. however, i would say that just because a nation or people are known > for magic, that does not immediately disqualify them as fighters. alphatia is > huge.... > Well, this debate is somewhat futile: if you believe the Alphatians should have better fighters/warriors than Thyatis or anyone else, and I don't, no amount of back and forth opining is going to change anyone's minds.>> now you are taking me well out of context. nowhere have i said that alph fighters were uniterily better or the best. i am merely stating that the magical stereotype does not disqualify them from having a competent fighter based troop compliment in their armed forces. i really do not see what the big deal is in regards to alph fighters being on par with other fighters in other kingdoms. no one disputes glantrian fighters. no one disputes thy mages. and all one has to do is look in canon sources....even pre-DotE to see alph fighters of standard qualities. > stalemate/cold war nature. with the addition of glantri and the HKs, wrath > implies the war was virtually won by alph even before it was declared....the > real battle being the alphers getting motivated to fight. > Mainy because Thyatian forces were not up to par. The "addition of Glantri and the HKs" is fundimentally negligable, as we've already agreed, so doesn't form much of an argument in favor of overwhelming Alphatian superiority. Again, though: if your opinion is that the Alphers can win hands down and Thyatis isn't in their league (in effect, your opinion being that Mystara has only one real power, something you said you didn't believe when Rob wondered), and I disagree, no amount of back and forth opining is going to change your opinion, mine, or anyone else's.>> once again you are taking me out of context. any alph superiority before wrath began came from the cumulative offensive potential; large multifacetted populace, vast material resources. however previously the alphs have had few opportunities to unify and throw its full warmaking potential in a given direction. that inability to unify and later manage gained lands and non-alph peoples keeps them from being the "sole world power". as it was alph had the potential to be a dominent world power. however it never put that potential to work to assert that claim. > fighting is further eroded by beneficial turn of events that favored alph and > nullified the glantri and HK alliances. for a war that was supposed to be > alph vs. glantri thyatis bore the brunt and overshadowed the cause of the > war. wrath gave alph few real allies. > WotI gave Thyatis no "real" allies, either - treaties of alliance notwithstanding, we've already gone over the fact that none of them lent much help against the "main threat" (oh, some help against Thar by the HKs, but as we all agreed before - if Glantri couldn't defeat Thar by themselves, they didn't deserve to survive anyhow). WotI also did much more to "undercut" the Thyatian war effort than it did to undercut the Alpher war effort. One could argue that this implies that left to its own deviced, Thyatis would have managed a stalemate at worse with Alphatia.>> prewrath references refer to an all out alph/thy war as being damning for both empires. that's the relationship i always fostered to prevent a alph/thy final war. wrath changed that by not only initiating the alph/thy war but bolstered the thy side with the glantrians and HKs. truthfully thy's allies were a nonfactor but it caused an even further divergence from the established status quo of mutual imperial destruction. not only was alph forced to survive a conflict with thy, it also had to be strong enough to follow up the thyatian campaigns with a march on glantri....possibly meeting the HKs as well. given prewrath status quo thyatis backed by either nation would have been victorious over alph. backed by both, a thyatian led force may have even been able to assault alph itself. instead wrath was designed for some very specific objectives and the factors within the wrath equation were engineered to produce the desired result. as far as undercutting anyones war effort i could argue that alph was pretty well screwed over as well. 1) the numerically ambiguous imperial sky navy was wiped out in Aasla. 2) the sinking/transplantation/retirement of the alph mainland from mainstream mystara. 3) the bitterest of wartime teases with alph on the verge of victory only to get kicked in the groin by the scripted sinking. > > not being industrialized, neither could retool and reequip their armies with > better weapons and armors in such a short period. > Who said anything about a short period? Folks on Mystara have been fighting Alpher mages since BC 1000. Plenty of time to decide what works best through (extensive) trial and error and train & equip folks based upon lessons learned.>> never said they'd be starting from scratch at wrath's beginning. in fact i would think that both would be set with a core of military forces for any impending conflict with the other empire. i am sure that the alph and thy forces have evolved greatly since their first military encounters 1000+ years ago. adapting and evolving their armed forces being the means to preserve the stalemate of prewrath mystara and keep one side from clearly being the favorite. it is this balanced nature that bolsters my resolve that alph would not be so one dimensional in its focus on the mage and use competent fighters as well. likewise the thys would shift more towards to magic within their own ranks. anyway...by short period for retooling i meant the war years....during wrath. <> but wasn't it also RW Rome who used older equipment in conjunction with newer designs. the historical materials i have offer specific examples of the overlap of weapon and armor types...nothing going to waste....throughout the roman history. it is even offered that parts of armors were reissued to subsequent generations of troops. new designs often came from neccessity and experience against a particular opponent. however implementation of new designs was not unitarily done as one could easily see a mixture of various torso armors, helms, weapons, and even shields within the same legion. add to that that the period includes armaments being made by individual skilled craftsmen instead of an assembly line. even if these smiths are gathered in mass under the same roofs, they are still individuals crafting weapons based on a common idea or even design. there are going to be deviations. of course for a fantasy setting i would place less a furtive role on this deviatiation as long as the basic equipment variants are the same type....plate=plate, chainmail=chainmail. > > yes i objected. i also noted the use of mass casualties in a charge to > both sides. > The problem is you only favor one side with such prowess, and not the other, setting up situations where the side you favor can dish out ten times as many casualties while their opponents stagger forward in an insensate manner. All Rob & I were doing was pointing out why it isn't nessissarily so that things will turn out in such a manner that your boltmen can maximalize the casualties they inflict.>> nope... i intended to offer it from both sides' perspective and even clarified it in a later message to insure that it was not exclusive to either side. the key to a battle where each side is evenly matched to a state of impasse is in maneuver and top avoid trench type fronts which would involve charges of the opposing trenches. > > note that i said "most". > with this initial land gab, the need to expand was minimal. > "need to" is different from "trying or wanting to". That was my point. > > nope....for thyatis it depends on efficiency. > Again, one of those cases where you hold the opinion that mage troops can dispatch 5 to 10 times their number of opposing forces, but that the Thyatians wouldn't find a way to utlize them, and where I tend to disagree with that -- based upon statements in DotE. But once again, no amout of back and forth opining is going to convince either of us, so this thread grows futile.>> the mage troop reference is an assumption and confused with the boltmen examples. a mage troop is still a low level mage (m1 or m2) and only has a couple spells in his quiver. so obviously he cannot take out 5 to 10 opponents with his spells. contrarily a boltman can IF he can unleash his wand's charges (which are 20 btw) before the enemy closes upon him. there's nothing revolutionary about the way the boltmen would be protected by regular infantry. and i also pointed out that with the boltmen's limited range they would have to be a component of a ranged weapon umbrella. also of note are the specialized boltmen that are part of a boltmen unit that are equipped with wands with heavier offensive spells and protective spells (prot. from norm missiles, dispel). also their AC aren't that bad....AC8 to AC4 depending on rank. > it depends on what firepower these mages can bring to thyatian > formations as compared to the cost. alph on the other > hand has that magic stereotype and is therefore obliged to have a magical > contingent in the armies, despite the costs to efficiency. > Except that you don't describe their being any: in fact, you make arguments exactly opposite of this. So which is it? Mages can dispatch some multiple of their number on the battlefield, or mages are a liability and not an asset?>> no what i did was question the efficiency of mages in either empire's forces. the difference is that magic plays less a social role in thyatis than alph. since the thy emphasis is less on magic the costs in men and material to integrate mages into a typical unit is less a matter of custom than efficiency. i think for thy mages would be used to compliment and support the fighters. conversely the alphs would use fighters to compliment and support the mages. for some reason a reference to boltmen capabilities has been derived to encompass all battlefield mages....and usually in some manner deamed more favorable to alph. > > thyatis would have to consolidate its smaller pool of mages > to man certain divisions with > mages to get the %, by taking mages from other divisions and leaving them > completely fighter based. > Not completely fighter-based, since there's more than just mages, and Thyatis has developed proficiency in its Clerical arm (per DotE) to a higher degree than Alphatia, precisely to counter-balance their mage-heavy nature and comparative lack of a Clerical arm. See also my Thyatian Military Variant for one example of exactly how Thyatis can do what you say they cannot.>> what i mean is based entirely upon mage to fighter population ratios, army cross sections, and Warmachine Rules. alph has the highest ratio 1 in 5 being capable of casting mage spells. with 20% of the general populace capable of mage magic the ability to amass a 20% spellcaster contingent within each force (and the Warmachine Rules BR bonus) is an almost given. conversely, thy has a lower ratio. with a smaller caster pool it either has to equally apportion its casters to its units at below 20% levels or it has to focus its casters to certain units to make up those 20% contingents. so i couldn't say they could not intergrate mages. i don't think they could do it to the extent that alph could. as for thy clerical numbers, i have no idea how many there are. i don't think that one fift of thy are clerics. likewise i don't think you'd find one fifth of the populace of the HK lands as clerics. > > it does say that the forces are kept to adequate levels. > Adiquate levels implies numbers, not quality.>> adequate means up to the task. since the task is the defense of alph and the interests of alph empire a balance between numbers and quality to do the job. if troops are not adequate, you make up with quality with quantity. so therefore i don't equate adequate alph forces with overwhelming numbers. > given that thyatis > is the intended adversary, it is feasible that the armed forces are > engineered to meet that thyatian force on equal terms. > It would be interesting if you used that conversely: that Thyatian forces would be engineered to meat the Alphatian force on equal terms. But you do not. Odd?>> well both alph and thy evolving their forces to meet each others forces is implied. however given the thy/alph axis of this discussion i chose the alph side to demonstrate the adoption and adaptation of thy tactics. had i said that thy had adopted alph tactics i would have probably been responded to as having alph setting the standards for the rivalry. << Strikes me as odd - you refer to the Alpher manpower advantage, but dismiss arguments that the (magic-obsessed) mages might simply rely upon using large numbers of (to them) expendible "mundaines" to overwhelm Thy forces - while objecting to arguments that the Thyatians might try to achieve a qualitative advantage in order to offset Alphatia's numerical and magical advantages. Again, this is an example where we can each write our opinions several more times, but it wouldn't convince anyone.>> all i want is to dismiss the notion that alph entered wrath with armed forces not manned by fighters of the worst quality, acting as sacrificial lambs for the mages, but with a competent fighter base to support the mage contingents. as mentioned i don't equate numbers as being the sole litmus test to an army's power level. > fleet. however there is mention of the vague high cost to maintain the > fleet and the opposition to its cost. > Which doesn't imply billions of gps by any means. IIRC, in effect you are arguing that the Alphers have more skyships (each requiring 200 airmen and 400 marines in the case of the Men-of-War) than you have on other occassions argued that Thyatis has RAF men. And who is building what to counter who's force? (actually, in effect both are, but that's another matter).>> well a man-of-war or other skyship is pricey in its base cost. further annual costs come into play as men and materials are brought in to operate and maintain the vessels. you have to pay and equip the light boltmen (mages and wands), the heavy boltmen (fighter/marines), skyship sailors, officers, shipboard utilitarian staff, mundane engineers, magist engineers, and artillerists (cats and ballista). then there are the skyship logistical needs. you need a skyship base and a variety of base personel. it all adds up...imo to billions gps....if not trillions over the years. so billions of gps is a relatively conservative pricetag for alph's years of investment in the imperial skyship fleet. as far as personel, i'd agree that the alph fleet probably does outnumber the RAF. the manpower demands of a skyship (especially a man-of-war) so alph personel numbers would probably be greater than the RAF. however i never said that there were more skyships than RAF rider and mount pairings. the fact is that i don't know and no official figures were given. that's one of the reasons that i am so interested in Rob's campaign with the alph fleet and thy RAF. i am curious as to what numbers they decided upon and how they used them. > > just to be safe let me clarify. "nothing to be feared" applies from the > alpher mage mentality and point of view. > And yet you argue in other areas that they would focus on building an efficient army of fighters. Ok. If you don't see the disconnect, then nothing I can say will show it.>> and nothing i say will change your stance. for some reason everything i say is derived as being pro-alph despite the lack of that intent and remarks intent to clarify the across the board nature of them. > > the bagpipe references was unneeded and probably more atmospheric than > literal. > Really? When it's in your interest, you argue that things should be deemed extremely significant. When not supportive of your argument, you think they should be dismissed. Makes it very hard - again, all that means is things can be whatever one wants. You see the Alph armies as a force unequalled on Mystara, not only in numbers but man-for-man superior in every way to their Thyatian (and other) opponents. I demure. There isn't any way these exchanges are going to change either of our minds.>> huh??....where did i say they were the unequalled force? likewise i never said the thys were bad. given my favoritism for the stalemate a degree of overall equality has to be present. if alph was overall superior no stalemate would exist. as mentioned i just want the alph fighters to be recognized as something more than walking and talking sacrificial shields for the mage minority. << Elsewhere I said that IMO the Alpher armies were "good" (but not the Ubermen described in PWA II), but that doesn't seem to be a concession you're willing to grant the Thy forces, persisting in portraying them as just hanging around waiting to be overun and not doing anything to try and change the balance of power (by becoming, for example, qualitatively better to offset the numerical superiority of the Alphatians)..>> that's all i wanted to get across was that the alph fighter troops get a degree of respectibility. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:19:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/00 12:45:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > actually valarius's influence may not be nearly as damning as one would > think. according to WotI > Of course, while declaring yourself "sick and tired" of me quoting things and infering all sorts of things theirby, you yourself go one step further. The tactic of only quoting those parts which may (but may not) support your thesis is a nice trick, but. . .well, at the risk of making you "sick and tired" again I will have to repair the damage.>> no....i never said i was sick of quotes. i am sick and tired of everything falling into the thy/alph comparisons. you cannot mention the two empires in same message without the subject matter falling to the same old addages of alph vs. thy. i despise quoting, as quoted excerpts often contradict themselves ....even in the same sourcebook. however i quoted those passages specifically to bolster the thyatian fighting ability and to diminish the post wrath finger pointing at why thy lost. thy lost wrath...that is not in dispute...how they lost makes the difference. either they could have been out gunned and out lasted or they could have quirked out with weak event twists exploiting social tendencies. it's one thing to lose a war....it's another to lose well. imo thy fought a good fight in a war it really shouldn't have been in. the more excuses that are brought into play diludes the thyatian performance. > > whether these poorly led and poorly trained troops within thycity are a > direct result of Valerias, i am unsure. if so it limits her influences to > a rather small portion of the thy forces....thycity's legions. > Oh? Why does that follow that the effect is limited? They call in other forces, but it doesn't say those troops are more able - the additional numbers could be what turned the trick. Also, even if you take your implication, there's another year between this and the first battles, and I doubt she stopped trying in the interval - she could have started in the capital, and worked her influence outwards. Also, note that in the same event, it says that she "is doing everything she can to make Thyatis crumble from the inside." - something you specifically rejected in your earlier reply, prefering to believe it was the outside influence of Alphatia alone.>> well....the quoted event specifies that the affected legions and the officers are in thycity prior to the revolt. the legions there are but a set preexisting number and not the entirety of the thy forces. it also offers that the affects were effectively purged in rather quick order. why it says this in this event but later addresses it differently (as if it were more impacting) is beyond me. it's not a matter of reading or not reading the entire text. it's a matter of the author setting the stage but not following up on his own material....something Wrath is full of. another example is the "imperial navies clash" event. these are naval units....yet no mention is made of thy navy units being influenced in the original event where the valerias influences are introduced. to me val's influewnce is overrated, becoming the excuse to explain why thy fared so badly. however i would suggest a quick fix to maintain a cohesiveness between the initial event and subsequent references; the intial event being the introdiuuction of the problems and a preemptive foreshadowing of the event up until the fighting on the IoD. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:22:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin adventures?)] In-Reply-To: <20000125173714.16493.qmail@awcst094.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I hope Mischa doesn't mind, but I altered the order of his reply a little bit, > to illustrate my response better... Don't mind at all. > >Ethnocentrism is a strong factor in any culture's resistance to change. > > True, but this will only take you so far, particularly when surrounded by more > technologically advanced cultures who are intent on conquest. Tech doesn't provide the needed edge though when geography is VASTLY behind you and so is divine influence. No immortal is seeking to unseat the Atraughin the way Atr. is working to protect them. Maybe if Atztanteotl were to get his Azcans involved via the world elevator, but they aren't much more advanced tech-wise than the tribes. The lack of any real enemy is key. Another key point - the physical dominance of the tribes is huge. Average physical stats will be higher, giving a big edge in comparing armies of 1st-level chars. > There is quite a gap between their freedom from the Red Orcs (800 BC IIRC?) > and the rise of the modern nations of the Old World, during which the > surrounding nations were decidedly more aggressive and technologically > advanced than the Atruaghin people (Darokin, for one, before its adoption of > Republicanism/Plutocracy). I don't have the Darokin GAZ, so can't comment on their historical attitude. > But I find it very difficult to buy that the Atruaghin peoples of the lowlands > (Turtle and Tiger clans, to be specific) haven't advanced beyond their former > levels. They are right in the thick of things. The Tiger Clan, at least, > should have embraced the technologies of the surrounding nations- or been > destroyed for their aggressive tendencies. The Tigers are in jungle which no one wants. Any invader is in VERY hostile territory which plays against their hands, unless for some reason elves invaded. > Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the > Tiger clan. But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to. > >Pragmatism - it's hard to hunt buffalo when decked out in full plate. > >Metal is rare on the plateau IIRC, so the creation of metal equiptment is > >similarily discouraged by nature. > > Definitely. > > But what I find disappointing is that the Atruaghin cultures were "frozen" at > such technologically primitive levels. Are they really that much behind Karameikos or the Ethengar? > didn't do more with them. It's almost as if he were saying that, given a few > more centuries (in this case, over a millenia) of progress- relatively > undisturbed progress- the Amerindian cultures still wouldn't have progressed > beyond the "primitive" levels they were in when the Europeans arrived. Maybe that would have been the case. Cultures tend to be pretty static, right, unless a major outside event affects things? Did the Native Americans progress greatly before the arrival of white folk? > Which to me, is ignoring a prime opportunity for some great fantasy > development. How much more different should they be though? Should we have one culture of Huns in plate with 2-handed swords, another of Indians in plate with 2-handed swords and another of Vikings in plate with 2-handed swords, all groups with crossbows, ships and the same magic? > I think the Atruaghin were/are a wonderful minefield of fantasy > experimentation that were woefully undeveloped. How about the people that > might live *inside* the plateau? Or that live in the forests north of the > Turtle Clan and west of the Tiger Clan? (Note: I plan on doing something with > both of these ideas... someday. :( Can't wait to see them, in addition to the Ghyr project and whatever else you're working on. Did the project based on your thoul work ever come to be BTW? > Anyway, enough ranting about the Atruaghin people. As you can tell, they are > sort of a pet peeve of mine. The greatest Mystaran culture that never was. *cough* Traladara *cough* Ochaleans *cough* Hutaakans *cough* Lots of groups deserved more material than they got IMO. Just look at every single Blackmoor culture! The Atruaghin case dain't bother me as much as ones like the Nithians, where the source material obscured as much as it elucidated. - Mischa If you're not greedy, you will go far - "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:28:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Mortal Rad or Immortal Etienne? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Somebody recently quoted source material saying that newly-elevated Immortals > have one year to put their mortal business in order then leave the Prime. > > Though this has been dismissed by everyone (because it's fair game for > Immortals to keep mortal ids), it has got me wondering: What if it means the > Immortals have one year during which they can use their old mortal id, then > must abandon it. Thereafter, they can still use mortal ids, just not their > mortal self anymore. That was me. The source material in the rules cyclopedia doesn't prohibit immo's from using mortal aliases, but it prevents them specifically from using their mortal identities ie. the identity that achieved immortality, this to illustrate they leave their mortal lives behind and are now on a higher state of existance, they only use mortal identities as tools now. Rad DID violate this law specifically and on purpose. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:49:27 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics vs Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a correction for the record: > > no....i never said i was sick of quotes. i am sick and tired of everything > falling into the thy/alph comparisons. you cannot mention the two empires in > same message without the subject matter falling to the same old addages of > alph vs. thy. > Me? Go back and check over the thread, chummer - it wasn't I who turned it into a thread of Alph/Thy comparisons or turned it into the same old addages of Alph vs Thy: that came up before I got involved. Yes, no one likes being contradicted, but please don't try to imply that this thread becoming "Alph vs Thy" was at my instigation. . . . Thank you. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:58:27 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another correction: > as far as personel, i'd agree that the alph fleet probably does outnumber the > RAF. > You're agreeing with yourself, then, because no where did I claim to support your proposition of the RAF being essentially ineffectual in the face of the Alph skyship fleet or outnumbered - please check my statement; I was alluding to your prior claims, not making a statement about my possition. Just one other note: the fact that I'm not responding to the other stuff, but merely making a few corrections for the record, does not imply that I am in agreement with what you're saying now. All it means is that I recognize the futility of continuing this discussion. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:43:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Tactics v Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > now you are taking me well out of context. nowhere have i said that alph > fighters were uniterily better or the best. i am merely stating that the > magical stereotype does not disqualify them from having a competent fighter > based troop compliment in their armed forces. i really do not see what the > big deal is in regards to alph fighters being on par with other fighters in > other kingdoms. no one disputes glantrian fighters. no one disputes thy > mages. and all one has to do is look in canon sources....even pre-DotE to see > alph fighters of standard qualities. An important thing to consider is that you're not talking about Alphatian fighters, but the Alphatian military. As an imperialistic nation, Alphatia will naturally try to maintain a reasonably capable military. Also a small quotation from DotE: Book Three: Alphatia: p. 14: "...Because the noble classes are (Ed: generally) disinterested in the doings of the military, the non-magic-users in charge of the military forces tend to be very practical in the choice of weapons; you don't see forces ordered into battle holding nothing but bag-pipes and daggers, for instance..." Also in a magic-heavy mation like Alphatia large numbers of troops will be supplied with magical items (weapons/armor) further improving their combat value. > Again, one of those cases where you hold the opinion that mage troops can > dispatch 5 to 10 times their number of opposing forces, but that the > Thyatians wouldn't find a way to utlize them, and where I tend to disagree > with that -- based upon statements in DotE. But once again, no amout of > back and forth opining is going to convince either of us, so this thread > grows futile.>> > > the mage troop reference is an assumption and confused with the boltmen > examples. a mage troop is still a low level mage (m1 or m2) and only has a > couple spells in his quiver. so obviously he cannot take out 5 to 10 > opponents with his spells. contrarily a boltman can IF he can unleash his > wand's charges (which are 20 btw) before the enemy closes upon him. there's > nothing revolutionary about the way the boltmen would be protected by regular > infantry. and i also pointed out that with the boltmen's limited range they > would have to be a component of a ranged weapon umbrella. also of note are > the specialized boltmen that are part of a boltmen unit that are equipped > with wands with heavier offensive spells and protective spells (prot. from > norm missiles, dispel). also their AC aren't that bad....AC8 to AC4 depending > on rank. Where does this info come from? I've looked hard for sources on Alphatian military but have found no pre-wrath data in anything resembling War Engine rules. Bye, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:22:07 -0800 Reply-To: ironwolf@ewa.net Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Calvin wrote: > > I'm not sure that we need to wait till 3E is out > before we start designing our own circles. I think > that it might be a good idea to design the circles for > Mystaran immortals, and then work our way down from > there (down to the 3E clerics of course). We can (and > should) use the 3E rules for clerics, but should we be > limited to the circles that they provide? I don't see why we couldn't get started with abstract assignments. The easiest path to start with would be using the spheres of dominion from AD&D and just assigning them to one of the five Mystaran Spheres. Then if any Immortal has influence or power in stuff that's not one of those, we create it. Thus we got circles. I only suggest this because it is likely that 3E will extrapolate from the abstracts in the AD&D structure. From what Dragon magazine and other sources have suggested the old system won't be used, but nature will always be nature, fire will always be fire, etc. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:59:15 +0100 Reply-To: mystara@com.bi Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Isle of Dawn draft finnished and waiting (desperatly) for comments... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F233130381696EEC1EF19D7D" --------------F233130381696EEC1EF19D7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/dawn8mdraft.htm the IoD has been made anew by dividing it into several smaller maps.To make them fit, they have been put into tables. I need now to work on replacing the black hexes and on smoothering the general conversion from 24 miles to this 8 miles per hex maps. Anyone kind enough to give me a hand in this project will be welcome.It could be a good way for you to enter the world of grid cartography.I am always ready to give any of you some clues about how to use that freeware (which is downloadable in my site). For the set of hexes used there, i can send it to you along with the map files. (once zipped it will take about 100 kb. I hope this time , i'll get more answers than before.Remember that mystara is what you want it to be, not just what I want it to be. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. --------------F233130381696EEC1EF19D7D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/dawn8mdraft.htm

the IoD has been made anew by dividing it into several smaller maps.To make them fit, they have been put into tables.
I need now to work on replacing the black hexes and on smoothering the general conversion from 24 miles to this 8 miles per hex maps.
Anyone kind enough to give me a hand in this project  will be welcome.It could be a good way for you to enter the world of grid cartography.I am always ready to give any of you some clues about how to use that freeware (which is downloadable in my site).
For the set of hexes used there, i can send it to you along with the map files. (once zipped it will take about 100 kb.

I hope this time , i'll get more answers than before.Remember that mystara is what you want it to be, not just what I want it to be.

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.
  --------------F233130381696EEC1EF19D7D-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Brad McMillan Subject: Re: Mortal Rad or Immortal Etienne? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:49 AM 1/31/00 -0800, you wrote: >Somebody recently quoted source material saying that newly-elevated Immortals >have one year to put their mortal business in order then leave the Prime. When my character -finally- achieved Immortality, my DM informed me that I had one year to put my mortal business in order before I went off to become a "level 1 character" (which is what a Novice Temporal is very much like, IMO. I was a 20th Level Forester before this.). Since my DM has about 96% of all Mystara OD&D materials (checked off the product list from one of our members sites), and has an incredible memory for rule and story details, I trust he was right about the one year mortal affairs thingy, though I'm surprised, as you say, so many people disagree with this detail. My DM explained, "Heroes don't die, they just fade away". The one year thingy helps to create a transition from mortal life to immortal life. My character was around 92 years old (damn old for a human - though I later would find out he was more than human), an old man with his "younger" elven wife (who achieved Immortality as well) and we walked together around the Known World with our grand daughter, showing her the places and cultures that were hers now to explore and seek adventure in. Being such high level as we were (my wife - an NPC - was 36th Mage and uh...had an itchy trigger finger for Fireballs), it was easy enough for us to show our grand daughter around, even in to places that would otherwise be quite hostile or fatal to others. It was a unique and rewarding experience for the little girl. One last gift to her from her grandparents before we...faded away; heroes of Mystara. :) A 5 year one-player, one-DM game that's been quite the sega, incompassing aspects of several modules as well as those found within the creative imagination of the DM and player (me). Our focus has always been more upon story and role-playing than combat, turning the littlest mundane detail in to a 5 hour game session - something never intended by the DM, but he goes for it. Slainte! Brad McMillan (digressing as usual) :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:38:36 -0600 Reply-To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mortal Rad or Immortal Etienne? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > AFAIK no Immortal but Rad and Benekander use their own mortal ids (though > correct me if I'm wrong). And both have no Immortal sponsors, so they don't > know the rules (Benekander) or don't see why they should apply to them (Rad). > Rad's example shows that there's nothing that prevents it, only Immortal > regulations. > Well, one of the things about the Immortal rules (both Gold & WotI) that makes them so "fudgeable" (open to interpretation) is the contradictory statements that are themselves vague enough to be interpreted many ways. For example, the "one year to wrap up affairs" rule probably got its start before their were rules for playing Immortal characters - reaching Immortality was taken to be "victory" and retirement: once you reached Immortality, that was the ultimate. Then rules for Immortals came out, and that line remained. Why? Well, think about it from two directions, as a player & as a character: 1st: From the standpoint of a Player, the assumption was, no doubt, "why struggle to reach Immortality and then just end up hanging around doing the same old things." So that rule remained as a "break with the past" type rule. NOTE however: a rule even more strongly enforced in the Gold box rules was the rule that compelled Immortals to revert to their old mortal form whenever they returned to the Prime (or, to be more technically accurate, the plane upon which they spent most of their mortal lives, IIRC). Once there, then one could assume various identities - but the "natural default" form for the Immortal was his (or her) own original mortal form. So obviously that implied it could still be used, for the sake of convenience if nothing else. 2nd: From the standpoint of a Character: once you reach Immortality (under the patronage/tutelage of an Immortal), you are presumed to go through a period of "apprenticeship"/"service" to your patron Immortal. The length of time this takes is variable (in effect, DM whim) - during that time no doubt you aren't able to spend time "maintaining" your former mortal identity - therefore you're given the year to wrap up your affairs before begining your learning/service period at the feet of your master. That time can take years, decades, centuries - whatever the DM thinks is appropriate (and can either be handled "on stage" with various missions & experiences being fully played out, or be assumed to have taken place "off stage" with the "Immortal Campaign" then begining "fast forwarded" to a certain point - the characters old mortal collegues, aquantances, informants, etc. might now be very old or have turned to dust). Note that the rules don't expressly say that either the Laws of the Immortals nor the Laws of the Cosmos forbid any of the Immortals from using their former mortal form as one of their "mortal identities" - quite the contrary, in WotI it says that if Hosadus/The Master reaches Immortality he is likely "like Rad", to continue on, using his "real" mortal form as one of his Mortal Identities. What does that mean? Does it mean that he'll be breaking the rules (Entropics do tend to do that, but such a long term violation would bound to be caught sooner rather than later by those who enforce the "rules")? Does it mean that each Immortal patron tends to impose such a rule, of his or her own accord, on those they sponsor, and that The Master's patron will not impose it, but instead allow him to continue on? Or does it mean that in fact no such rule exists, and that the main reason folks have to wrap up their affairs is reason #2, above: they aren't prevented from using their Mortal IDs, but since most are under an enforced absense from the Prime while they "learn the ropes" they are encouraged to wrap up their affairs before they ascend, and are given a year to do so? It doesn't say. Thus, to each their own interpretation; one of the fun things about the rules for Immortality. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Will you lower your shields please, captain? I was referring to abstracts, such > as basic elements that are considered fundamental in both mythology and Sorry about that. I knee-jerk sometimes. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:03:38 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Houses of Darokin: Hallonica House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the third in a series of writeups detailing the Great Houses of Darokin. This time, we'll be looking at one of the two Houses based in Selencia, the third richest house in the Republic: Hallonica House. A Brief History of Hallonica House Hallonica is the only merchant family to be a direct descendant of a noble family of the Kingdom of Darokin. In fact, the family's history goes even further back than that. The Hallonica family was a powerful aristocratic family in the old Kingdom of Selencia. During the Traladaran Wars (412-417 AC), Selencia allied with the Traladarans Traladara, causing enmity between it and Darokin. It was Hallonica mercenaries that opened the gates to Selencia in 574 AC, allowing the Darokinian army in and adding the city to the Kingdom of Darokin. In return for this service, Raros Hallonica was appointed Duke of Selencia. Selencia managed to avoid the bloody civil wars following the breakup of the Kingdom, though local tensions forced the Hallonica's to change over to a democratic form of government, with a six person City Council and a Mayor. Selencia remains unique in that it is the only city in which all citizens, regardless of wealth, are allowed to participate in the local elections. Over the years, the Hallonica family invested in buisness and trade, eventually becoming primarily a merchant family, rather than land-owning aristocracy. The greatest threat to Hallonica's existance was the arival of Al-Azrad House in 853 AC, but Hallonica managed to turn this enemy into a friend, catapulting it to its high position among the Houses. After the death of Corwyn Hoff, Rpien Hallonica was elected Chancellor (with Houses Mauntea, Corun, Pennydown, Franich, Al-Azrad, and of course Hallonica voting for him, and Linton, Franich, and Umbarth voting for Lucius Linton, making the greatest runaway victories in Darokinian history). Hallonica House Assets Hallonica maintains extensive operations in Selencia and Karameikois, as well as minor operations in Ylaruam. It is the only Great House to not maintain at least an office in Darokin City. Hallonica House Relations Al-Azrad: Friendly. The two Houses cooperate in running Selencia, and Hallonica purchases over half of Al-Azrad's imports from Ylaruam. Corun: Neutral. These two Houses are related neither politically nor economically. Franich: Neutral. Neither House has much to do with the other. Linton: Neutral verging on hostile. Linton House has a feud with Hallonica, though the later would like nothing better than to end the wasteful conflict. Mauntea: Neutral verging on hostile. Corwyn Mauntea sueeded a Hallonica as Chancellor, and as such Hallonica is slightly hostile toward Mauntea. Pennydown: Friendly. Hallonica often sells the goods it buys from Al-Azrad to Pennydown for domestic distribution. Toney: Neutral. Hallonica has few relations with the smallest Great House. Umbarth: Neutral. Like with most Houses, Hallonica has little to do with Umbarth House. Hallonica House Personalities Bertram Hallonica (0/20th level normal man/merchant, LN) Bertram is the head of Hallonica House and sits on the City Council of Selencia. He has two sons, though his wife has been dead for some time. He desires nothing more than to be able to ignore Darokinian politics, though Hallonica's high position makes this immpossible. He is of a slightly shorter than average height, and his blonde hair has beggun to whiten with age. Sarah Hallonica (3rd/7th level magic-user/merchant, NG) Bertram's younger sister, Sarah is the Mayor of Selenica. Since taking that post, she has retired as a merchant. She is unmarried, though it is well known that she has had several lovers over the years. sarah was considered a beauty in her younger years, and she still has a striking appearance. Like her brother, she has blonde hair and green eyes. Anders Hallonica (2nd/9th level fighter/merchant, NG) Bertram's older son, Anders is the heir apparent and is in charge of the Karameikan operations. He has a good sense of humor, and is fond of practical jokes. He takes after his mother, being short with brown hair and grey-green eyes. Dafford Hallonica (0 level normal man, CG) Dafford is Bertram's younger son, but shows no interest in buisness. He is very scholarly, but has no aptitude for magic. He is Head Custodian of the Selencia Library. Dafford appears similar to his father. Garon Hallonica (5th level fighter, LN) A relative of Bertram's, Garon sits on the Selencia city council. He is good friends with Huron Ironhammer, the dwarven member of the city council. William Hallonica (14th level cleric of Asterius, CG) William, another of Bertram's relatives, is the High Priest of Selencia's Church of Darokin, and sits on the city council. He is good friends with Eshram Al-Azrad, and never ceases in his light-hearted attempts to convert Eshram from the Eternal Truth. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:52:46 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eleanor Williams Subject: Modules for Sale-Commercial site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listings at Sages Guild The Sages' Guild - Your WWW Source for Used Role Playing Game Materials Mystara References (and Basic D&D) This area contains items for the Mystara campaign setting. It includes both 1st edition and 2nd edition items! Return to Main Menu 0418 - Monster & Treasure Asst: Set 1-3, Levels 1-9 - Cover is VG, some scuffing. Pages are NM $14.00 1105 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1980) - Cover is VG, light wear. Contains 6 unused sheets $5.00 0729 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1981) - NM $13.00 0925 - D&D Expert Set (pastel blue box, 1980) - Box is VG, light wear but solid. Rulebook and module X1 are very clean. No dice or crayon. $15.00 1102 - D&D Basic Rulebook (red softcover, 1981) - G/VG, some overall wear - $3.00 1103 - D&D Players Manual and DMs Rulebook (2 red softcovers, 1983) - VG, light overall wear $6.00 0709 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1981) - VG/NM $4.00 0710 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1983) - VG, slight cover wear $4.00 0413 - D&D Players Companion and DM's Companion (2 light blue softcovers, 1984) - Covers VG, light wear. Pages are NM $6.00 1224 - D&D Companion Rules (blue/green box, 1984) - Box is G/VG, light scuffing but lid has heavy creasing. Rules booklets are very clean $8.00 1227 - The Classic Dungeons & Dragons game (tan box, 1994) - Overall VG, complete $14.00 1231 - Karameikos: Kingdon of Adventure boxed set - NM $20.00 0415 - D&D Character & Monster Assortment - SW, $10.00 0416 - In the Phantom's Wake - SW, $9.00 0748 - AC2 D&D Combat Shield and Mini Adventure - F, moderate wear, missing mini-adventure $1.00 1122 - AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic - VG/NM, very light cover wear $13.00 1006 - AC5 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - Cover is VG, spine creases. 7 blank sheets remain, but they have been removed along the spine perferation $4.00 0750 - AC6 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - G/VG, moderate cover wear and creasing; pages unused $6.00 9039 - AC7 Master Player Screen - G, cover creasing $4.00 6332 - AC9 Creature Catalogue - VG, light cover wear. Interior is NM $9.00 1124 - B3 Palace of the Silver Princess (green cover) - Cover is VG, some creasing. Pages NM $14.00 0752 - B6 The Veiled Society - G, module heavily creased; pages very clean $7.00 1127 - B7 Rahasia - Cover is VG, light wear. Pages are NM - $15.00 0762 - DMR2 Creature Catalog - VG/NM $12.00 5N5W - M1 Into the Maelstrom - VG, almost NM $6.00 1181 - M1 Blizzard Pass - Overall G/VG. Many "invisible ink" text blocks have been colored in. Missing pen $7.00 01II - X3 Curse of Xanathon - Cover is VG, pages very clean $8.00 0590 - X3 Curse of Xanathon - SW, but slight corner wear where wrap has peeled $12.00 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:17:17 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin adventures?)] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:22 PM 1/31/00 -0500, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > >> >Ethnocentrism is a strong factor in any culture's resistance to change. >> >> True, but this will only take you so far, particularly when surrounded by >> more technologically advanced cultures who are intent on conquest. > >Tech doesn't provide the needed edge though when geography is VASTLY >behind you and so is divine influence. No immortal is seeking to unseat >the Atraughin the way Atr. is working to protect them. Maybe if >Atztanteotl were to get his Azcans involved via the world elevator, but >they aren't much more advanced tech-wise than the tribes. The lack of any >real enemy is key. That's an awful lot of divine interference. More than I'm comfortable with, at any rate. If Atruaghin is looking after his people so closely that he steers outsiders away from them, that is cutting it close to the Immortal Non-Interference in the Prime rules, IMO> >Another key point - the physical dominance of the tribes is huge. Average >physical stats will be higher, giving a big edge in comparing armies of >1st-level chars. Compared to the other clans, yes. Compared to the armies of, say, Sind or Darokin? The outsiders are better equipped, more mobile (at least against the armies of the Tiger and Turtle clans, who are the only viable targets), better organized (arguably- the Tiger Clan is fairly organized). >> There is quite a gap between their freedom from the Red Orcs (800 BC >> IIRC?) and the rise of the modern nations of the Old World, during which >> the surrounding nations were decidedly more aggressive and >> technologically advanced than the Atruaghin people (Darokin, for one, >> before its adoption of Republicanism/Plutocracy). > >I don't have the Darokin GAZ, so can't comment on their historical >attitude. According to the Gaz, from the period of 200 BC till about 300 AC the humans of Darokin were in a constant expansion, driving orcs out of the regions west of the Streel River, which suggests some major aggression to me. Then they engage in a war with the Alfheim elves over some ill-defined issues that lasts for three years. If they are willing to engage in warfare with elves (whom the Gaz points out were formerly allies/suppliers of the humans during the Orcwars) over minor issues, then surely they wouldn't have hesitated to attack the Tiger Clanners down to the southwest (who would have likely been as big a threat to the early settlers as the orcs)? >> But I find it very difficult to buy that the Atruaghin peoples of the >> lowlands (Turtle and Tiger clans, to be specific) haven't advanced beyond >> their former levels. They are right in the thick of things. The Tiger >> Clan, at least, should have embraced the technologies of the surrounding >> nations- or been destroyed for their aggressive tendencies. > >The Tigers are in jungle which no one wants. Any invader is in VERY >hostile territory which plays against their hands, unless for some reason >elves invaded. I'm not talking conquest. I'm talking retribution. Gaz14 points out that the Tiger clan engages in raids and attacks on its neighbors. To me, this means a) the Turtle Clan, and b) the people of the Tenobar region of Darokin, at the very least. While I can't see the Republic advocating genocide against the Tiger clan in modern times, I can certainly see the monarchy of old Darokin (or even just loosely allied settlers) striking out against the terrorizing raiders to the west. In any case, given the Tiger Clan's warlike nature, surely they would *want* to develop the technologies of their neighbors, in order to more capably undertake their warfare practices? The Azcan (from whom they are descended) and their patron Atzanteotl show a history and tendency to expansionistic activities. IMO, the Tiger Clan would share this. >> Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out >> by the Tiger clan. > >But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to. Again, see my point about why the Tiger Clan, IMO, *would* adapt. >> But what I find disappointing is that the Atruaghin cultures were >> "frozen" at such technologically primitive levels. > >Are they really that much behind Karameikos or the Ethengar? Yes. The Ethengarians and Karameikans are both steel age cultures. The Atruaghin tribes are, at best, bronze age (and that's only the Tiger Clan). Even though the Ethengarians are still mostly non-sedentary nomads, they embrace the technologies, weapons, and tactics of outside nations. More importantly (to me) is the fact that, despite their seeming "backwardsness" compared to outside nations, the Ethengar gazetteer depicts several of the Khans as trying to lead their people into a more "modern" era, the better to compete and participate in affairs of the world around them. They are not depicted as completely static, like the Atruaghin gazetteer depicts the people living around and on the plateau. >> didn't do more with them. It's almost as if he were saying that, given a >> few more centuries (in this case, over a millenia) of progress- >> relatively undisturbed progress- the Amerindian cultures still wouldn't >> have progressed beyond the "primitive" levels they were in when the >> Europeans arrived. > >Maybe that would have been the case. Cultures tend to be pretty static, >right, unless a major outside event affects things? Not necessarily. There are tons of factors that go into determining the rate of progress/change in any given society. Many of those factors, I will concede, do not appear to have been present within the Americas, and hence it's slower rate of change compared to other nations. In this case, though, a lot of the factors that applied to the Americas *don't* apply to the Atruaghin peoples. The biggest one, IMO, is the process by which ideas and cultural technologies diffuse. In the RW Americas, the process of diffusion would have flowed along a north-south axis, given the layout of the continents, as opposed to an east-west axis like in Eurasia. The north-south flow of diffusion is much slower, especially given the geographical difficulties associated with moving from North America to South America. The peoples were much more widespread and sparse as well, making it much more difficult for new technologies and advances to spread. That isn't *entirely* the case with the Atruaghin peoples. The lowlanders (Tiger and Turtle clans) would have access to this knowledge and information. At any rate, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I find it unlikely that such an event would take place, or even so, I think it more of a loss to the realm of fantasy exploration to assume that it did. I think it is much more fun to take the basis of the American Indians on which the Atruaghin are based, and to expand them and say- "what else could we do with them?" >> Which to me, is ignoring a prime opportunity for some great fantasy >> development. > >How much more different should they be though? Should we have one culture >of Huns in plate with 2-handed swords, another of Indians in plate with >2-handed swords and another of Vikings in plate with 2-handed swords, all >groups with crossbows, ships and the same magic? That's not exactly what I meant. I don't want to see platemail garbed Indians any more than you do, but I would have liked to have seen something else done, given that it's a fantasy world and we can play what if. Maybe they would have evolved some incredible forms of art? Or their spirit magics would have turned them into a people who walk between the worlds of reality and spirituality? Or they could become a strongly druidical culture? Or they could have sent their studies skywards, and developed powerful astronomical magics- maybe even reaching the moons and communicating with them? Heck... maybe I should take some of these ideas and run with them anyway? :) >Can't wait to see them, in addition to the Ghyr project and whatever else >you're working on. Did the project based on your thoul work ever come to >be BTW? Ghyr has been greenlighted somewhat, and will be coming out in bits and pieces over the next couple of months. I intend to make the setting fully 3rd Edition compatible. The Thoul thing was actually related to the Great Crater mini-Gazetteer that I wrote up a while back. I still intend to release some subterranean maps for that region, though. >> Anyway, enough ranting about the Atruaghin people. As you can tell, they >> are sort of a pet peeve of mine. The greatest Mystaran culture that never >> was. > >*cough* Traladara *cough* Ochaleans *cough* Hutaakans *cough* > >Lots of groups deserved more material than they got IMO. Just look at >every single Blackmoor culture! The Atruaghin case dain't bother me as >much as ones like the Nithians, where the source material obscured as much >as it elucidated. That's true. The Hollow World Gaz for that nation was pretty bad, IMO. It doesn't even look like the author knew what system he was writing for. There is at least one entry in the adventure (IIRC) that lists an NPC with a percentile strength? The hit point values and other statistics for some of the NPCs don't match with the D&D rules (though they would for AD&D...) But Native American cultures are sort of a pet interest of mine, so I look at the oversights in the Atruaghin clans as a bigger problem. :) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.