=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 03:26:17 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] An attempt at a comprehensive multiversal
              structure]
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In a message dated 2000-01-31 11:46:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes:

<< I'm curious why you place Laterre here and Gothic Earth elsewhere. I would
 think that, if not the same place, then they should at least fall into a
 similar category (in this case,  falling into the Normal Dimension, if I
 follow your terminology correctly).>>

That is a tough decision to make -- in fact, I am also tempted to identify
Laterre and Gothic Earth as the same plane.  I think I finally decided to
make Laterre a plane separate from both the Light Prime and the Dark
Prime because it seemed that it should be cut off from the alternate
dimensions as well as from the Astral and Outer Planes.  I would leave
it where it is if you agree with that conclusion, or move it back into the
Dark Prime if you want to either make it more accessible to the alternate
dimensions or increase the influence of the dark powers over it -- and the
latter would certainly be necessary if it is regarded as being the same
world as Gothic Earth.

 >magic associated with aligned "Good" or "Evil" is totally ineffective
 >anywhere in this meta-plane.

 <<Yet Detect Evil and Protection from Evil spells work just fine on Mystara.
How
 do you account for this?>>

They work differently.  "Detect Evil" detects primarily hostility to the
caster,
and thus there is no reason for anyone to reverse the spell to "Detect Good".

In fact, I would suggest that the inability to detect good or evil magically
is
the reason that most beings with the power to do so would perceive Prince
Jaggar as being "Lawful Evil" in the post-WotI era.  During and prior to the
events of WotI he does nothing that marks him as good or evil, with the
possible exception of declining the ultimate power he could have claimed
as High Master of Dracology.  As a result, his pegasus perceives him as
"good" and will let him ride it.  All that changes when he becomes intimate
with Dolores, who is a minion of Entropy.  From that point on he acquires
an Entropic taint that is perceived as "evil", and thus no matter what else
he may do in the future he will radiate evil to nearly anyone not allied with
Entropy.

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Date:         Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:22:44 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Jost Westenberg <su001552@ACCESS.UNI-DORTMUND.DE>
Subject:      Re: Modules for Sale-Commercial site

Hello my name is JOST WESTENBERG, i�m from GERMANY
so sorry about my ENGLISH

i want to by
1122 - AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic - VG/NM
very light cover wear $13.00
but want�s a "very light cover wear", please tell by in other words the
condition of the book.

AWT Jost

jost.westenberg@gmx.de
-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Eleanor Williams <ewilliams@ONLINEMAC.COM>
An: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Februar 2000 06:52
Betreff: [MYSTARA] Modules for Sale-Commercial site


> Listings at Sages Guild
>
> The Sages' Guild - Your WWW Source for Used Role Playing Game Materials
>
>
> Mystara References (and Basic D&D)
>
> This area contains items for the Mystara campaign setting. It includes
> both 1st edition and 2nd edition items!
>
>
>
> Return to Main Menu
>
>      0418 - Monster & Treasure Asst: Set 1-3, Levels 1-9 - Cover is VG,
> some scuffing. Pages are NM $14.00
>      1105 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1980) - Cover is VG,
> light wear. Contains 6 unused sheets $5.00
>      0729 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1981) - NM $13.00
>      0925 - D&D Expert Set (pastel blue box, 1980) - Box is VG, light
> wear but solid. Rulebook and module X1 are very clean. No
>      dice or crayon. $15.00
>      1102 - D&D Basic Rulebook (red softcover, 1981) - G/VG, some
> overall wear - $3.00
>      1103 - D&D Players Manual and DMs Rulebook (2 red softcovers, 1983)
> - VG, light overall wear $6.00
>      0709 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1981) - VG/NM $4.00
>      0710 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1983) - VG, slight
> cover wear $4.00
>      0413 - D&D Players Companion and DM's Companion (2 light blue
> softcovers, 1984) - Covers VG, light wear. Pages are NM
>      $6.00
>      1224 - D&D Companion Rules (blue/green box, 1984) - Box is G/VG,
> light scuffing but lid has heavy creasing. Rules booklets
>      are very clean $8.00
>      1227 - The Classic Dungeons & Dragons game (tan box, 1994) -
> Overall VG, complete $14.00
>      1231 - Karameikos: Kingdon of Adventure boxed set - NM $20.00
>      0415 - D&D Character & Monster Assortment - SW, $10.00
>      0416 - In the Phantom's Wake - SW, $9.00
>      0748 - AC2 D&D Combat Shield and Mini Adventure - F, moderate wear,
> missing mini-adventure $1.00
>      1122 - AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic - VG/NM, very light cover
> wear $13.00
>      1006 - AC5 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - Cover is VG, spine
> creases. 7 blank sheets remain, but they have been
>      removed along the spine perferation $4.00
>      0750 - AC6 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - G/VG, moderate
> cover wear and creasing; pages unused $6.00
>      9039 - AC7 Master Player Screen - G, cover creasing $4.00
>      6332 - AC9 Creature Catalogue - VG, light cover wear. Interior is
> NM $9.00
>      1124 - B3 Palace of the Silver Princess (green cover) - Cover is
> VG, some creasing. Pages NM $14.00
>      0752 - B6 The Veiled Society - G,  module heavily creased; pages
> very clean $7.00
>      1127 - B7 Rahasia - Cover is VG, light wear. Pages are NM - $15.00
>      0762 - DMR2  Creature Catalog - VG/NM $12.00
>      5N5W - M1 Into the Maelstrom - VG, almost NM $6.00
>      1181 - M1 Blizzard Pass - Overall G/VG. Many "invisible ink" text
> blocks have been colored in. Missing pen $7.00
>      01II - X3 Curse of Xanathon - Cover is VG, pages very clean $8.00
>      0590 - X3 Curse of Xanathon - SW, but slight corner wear where wrap
> has peeled $12.00
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.

********************************************************************
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Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:36:03 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <tsarlat@PICASSO.ETU.MONTAIGNE.U-BORDEAUX.FR>
Subject:      Re: Modules for Sale-Commercial site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

to make your order you need to go to the sage guild site an there you can put
your order.

Jost Westenberg a �crit :

> Hello my name is JOST WESTENBERG, i�m from GERMANY
> so sorry about my ENGLISH
>
> i want to by
> 1122 - AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic - VG/NM
> very light cover wear $13.00
> but want�s a "very light cover wear", please tell by in other words the
> condition of the book.
>
> AWT Jost
>
> jost.westenberg@gmx.de
> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Eleanor Williams <ewilliams@ONLINEMAC.COM>
> An: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Februar 2000 06:52
> Betreff: [MYSTARA] Modules for Sale-Commercial site
>
> > Listings at Sages Guild
> >
> > The Sages' Guild - Your WWW Source for Used Role Playing Game Materials
> >
> >
> > Mystara References (and Basic D&D)
> >
> > This area contains items for the Mystara campaign setting. It includes
> > both 1st edition and 2nd edition items!
> >
> >
> >
> > Return to Main Menu
> >
> >      0418 - Monster & Treasure Asst: Set 1-3, Levels 1-9 - Cover is VG,
> > some scuffing. Pages are NM $14.00
> >      1105 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1980) - Cover is VG,
> > light wear. Contains 6 unused sheets $5.00
> >      0729 - D&D Player Character Record Sheets (1981) - NM $13.00
> >      0925 - D&D Expert Set (pastel blue box, 1980) - Box is VG, light
> > wear but solid. Rulebook and module X1 are very clean. No
> >      dice or crayon. $15.00
> >      1102 - D&D Basic Rulebook (red softcover, 1981) - G/VG, some
> > overall wear - $3.00
> >      1103 - D&D Players Manual and DMs Rulebook (2 red softcovers, 1983)
> > - VG, light overall wear $6.00
> >      0709 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1981) - VG/NM $4.00
> >      0710 - D&D Expert Rule Book (Blue softcover, 1983) - VG, slight
> > cover wear $4.00
> >      0413 - D&D Players Companion and DM's Companion (2 light blue
> > softcovers, 1984) - Covers VG, light wear. Pages are NM
> >      $6.00
> >      1224 - D&D Companion Rules (blue/green box, 1984) - Box is G/VG,
> > light scuffing but lid has heavy creasing. Rules booklets
> >      are very clean $8.00
> >      1227 - The Classic Dungeons & Dragons game (tan box, 1994) -
> > Overall VG, complete $14.00
> >      1231 - Karameikos: Kingdon of Adventure boxed set - NM $20.00
> >      0415 - D&D Character & Monster Assortment - SW, $10.00
> >      0416 - In the Phantom's Wake - SW, $9.00
> >      0748 - AC2 D&D Combat Shield and Mini Adventure - F, moderate wear,
> > missing mini-adventure $1.00
> >      1122 - AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic - VG/NM, very light cover
> > wear $13.00
> >      1006 - AC5 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - Cover is VG, spine
> > creases. 7 blank sheets remain, but they have been
> >      removed along the spine perferation $4.00
> >      0750 - AC6 D&D Player Character Record Sheets - G/VG, moderate
> > cover wear and creasing; pages unused $6.00
> >      9039 - AC7 Master Player Screen - G, cover creasing $4.00
> >      6332 - AC9 Creature Catalogue - VG, light cover wear. Interior is
> > NM $9.00
> >      1124 - B3 Palace of the Silver Princess (green cover) - Cover is
> > VG, some creasing. Pages NM $14.00
> >      0752 - B6 The Veiled Society - G,  module heavily creased; pages
> > very clean $7.00
> >      1127 - B7 Rahasia - Cover is VG, light wear. Pages are NM - $15.00
> >      0762 - DMR2  Creature Catalog - VG/NM $12.00
> >      5N5W - M1 Into the Maelstrom - VG, almost NM $6.00
> >      1181 - M1 Blizzard Pass - Overall G/VG. Many "invisible ink" text
> > blocks have been colored in. Missing pen $7.00
> >      01II - X3 Curse of Xanathon - Cover is VG, pages very clean $8.00
> >      0590 - X3 Curse of Xanathon - SW, but slight corner wear where wrap
> > has peeled $12.00
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
> > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.

--
Thibault Sarlat.
ICQ 16622177.
homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Join me at: mystara@com.bi  or at
tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr

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To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:14:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      What's all the fuss about a structure to the multiverse?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi gang!

Not to throw a wrnech or anything, but what's wrong with the structure we
have now?

As I understand it, it works like this:

1) The Astral Plane is the glue that holds everything else together. Once
you
    reach it you can go pretty much anywhere. All the other planes appear as
    icons through which you can pass.
2) The Ethereal Plane is the next closer plane to The Prime. Surrounding the
    the Prime are the Elemental Planes within the Ethereal.
3) The Outer Planes can be just about anything!

All of this is within the notion of Dimensions. Each of the above mentioned
planes exist with as many dimensions as there are in the multiverse. Those
without the necessary senses are unable to experience these other
dimensions directly. A huge mass of tentacled evil can pass harmlessly
through you as you walk because it exists in a set of four dimensions higher
than you do (the old ignorance is bliss sort of thing...)

Where there is intersection, then you can have interactions with the
inhabitants of various dimensions. I like the incongruity of having a
dimension (like Nightmare) that is a little bit "off." When this sort of
thing happens I give inhabitants of both intersecting dimensions some
kind of advantage to avoid being noticed, or to avoid being hit
(the part being hit was so connected to the specific dimension not
shared that the attempted strike just missed). When encountering such
a being, both sides of the encounter should be startled (at least).
Unless a PC has experience with this sort of thing the effects can be
severe (like a PC huddling in a corner, pointing at nothing at all and
mumbling gibberish and drooling...)

Anyhow, this is just my two cents worth...

    George

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Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:38:16 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      R:      Re: [MYSTARA] Tactics v Magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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One word for everyone who thinks that Alphatia isn't suitable for good
fighters.
This continent hosts 5.000.000 people, so for statistic rules, they must be
a lot of good fighters, even if magic is very popular among Alphatian. There
must be alot of people who hasn't abilities suitable for becoming a
mage\cleric, so they are forced to take other careers, so they develop
fighters abilities.
And every nation tries to have his army strong in every zone, navy, air and
ground forces, so why Alphatia cannot host a strong ordinary army?
Marco Fossati
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Benson <Alex295@AOL.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Tactics v Magic


> In a message dated 1/25/00 11:59:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes:
>
> << > general. however, i would say that just because a nation or people
are
>  known
>  > for magic, that does not immediately disqualify them as fighters.
>  alphatia is
>  > huge....
>  >
>  Well, this debate is somewhat futile: if you believe the Alphatians
should
>  have better fighters/warriors than Thyatis or anyone else, and I don't,
no
>  amount of back and forth opining is going to change anyone's minds.>>
>
> now you are taking me well out of context. nowhere have i said that alph
> fighters were uniterily better or the best. i am merely stating that the
> magical stereotype does not disqualify them from having a competent
fighter
> based troop compliment in their armed forces. i really do not see what the
> big deal is in regards to alph fighters being on par with other fighters
in
> other kingdoms. no one disputes glantrian fighters. no one disputes thy
> mages. and all one has to do is look in canon sources....even pre-DotE to
see
> alph fighters of standard qualities.
>
>  > stalemate/cold war nature. with the addition of glantri and the HKs,
>  wrath
>  > implies the war was virtually won by alph even before it was
>  declared....the
>  > real battle being the alphers getting motivated to fight.
>  >
>  Mainy because Thyatian forces were not up to par. The "addition of
Glantri
>  and the HKs" is fundimentally negligable, as we've already agreed, so
>  doesn't form much of an argument in favor of overwhelming Alphatian
>  superiority. Again, though: if your opinion is that the Alphers can win
>  hands down and Thyatis isn't in their league (in effect, your opinion
being
>  that Mystara has only one real
>  power, something you said you didn't believe when Rob wondered), and I
>  disagree, no amount of back and forth opining is going to change your
>  opinion, mine, or anyone else's.>>
>
> once again you are taking me out of context. any alph superiority before
> wrath began came from the cumulative offensive potential; large
multifacetted
> populace, vast material resources. however previously the alphs have had
few
> opportunities to unify and throw its full warmaking potential in a given
> direction. that inability to unify and later manage gained lands and
non-alph
> peoples keeps them from being the "sole world power". as it was alph had
the
> potential to be a dominent world power. however it never put that
potential
> to work to assert that claim.
>
>  > fighting is further eroded by beneficial turn of events that favored
alph
>  and
>  > nullified the glantri and HK alliances. for a war that was supposed to
be
>  > alph vs. glantri thyatis bore the brunt and overshadowed the cause of
the
>  > war. wrath gave alph few real allies.
>  >
>  WotI gave Thyatis no "real" allies, either - treaties of alliance
>  notwithstanding, we've already gone over the fact that none of them lent
>  much help against the "main threat" (oh, some help against Thar by the
HKs,
>  but as we all agreed before - if Glantri couldn't defeat Thar by
>  themselves, they didn't  deserve to survive anyhow). WotI also did much
>  more to "undercut" the Thyatian war effort than it did to undercut the
>  Alpher war effort. One could argue that this implies that left to its own
>  deviced, Thyatis would have managed a stalemate at worse with Alphatia.>>
>
> prewrath references refer to an all out alph/thy war as being damning for
> both empires. that's the relationship i always fostered to prevent a
alph/thy
> final war. wrath changed that by not only initiating the alph/thy war but
> bolstered the thy side with the glantrians and HKs. truthfully thy's
allies
> were a nonfactor but it caused an even further divergence from the
> established status quo of mutual imperial destruction. not only was alph
> forced to survive a conflict with thy, it also had to be strong enough to
> follow up the thyatian campaigns with a march on glantri....possibly
meeting
> the HKs as well. given prewrath status quo thyatis backed by either nation
> would have been victorious over alph. backed by both, a thyatian led force
> may have even been able to assault alph itself. instead wrath was designed
> for some very specific objectives and the factors within the wrath
equation
> were engineered to produce the desired result. as far as undercutting
anyones
> war effort i could argue that alph was pretty well screwed over as well.
1)
> the numerically ambiguous imperial sky navy was wiped out in Aasla. 2) the
> sinking/transplantation/retirement of the alph mainland from mainstream
> mystara. 3) the bitterest of wartime teases with alph on the verge of
victory
> only to get kicked in the groin by the scripted sinking.
>
>  >
>  > not being industrialized, neither could retool and reequip their armies
>  with
>  > better weapons and armors in such a short period.
>  >
>  Who said anything about a short period? Folks on Mystara have been
fighting
>  Alpher mages since BC 1000. Plenty of time to decide what works best
>  through (extensive) trial and error and train & equip folks based upon
>  lessons learned.>>
>
> never said they'd be starting from scratch at wrath's beginning. in fact i
> would think that both would be set with a core of military forces for any
> impending conflict with the other empire. i am sure that the alph and thy
> forces have evolved greatly since their first military encounters 1000+
years
> ago. adapting and evolving their armed forces being the means to preserve
the
> stalemate of prewrath mystara and keep one side from clearly being the
> favorite. it is this balanced nature that bolsters my resolve that alph
would
> not be so one dimensional in its focus on the mage and use competent
fighters
> as well. likewise the thys would shift more towards to magic within their
own
> ranks. anyway...by short period for retooling i meant the war
years....during
> wrath.
>
> <<Btw, even the IRL Byzantino-Roman Empire had "arms factories" and
managed
> to equip most of their forces up to a given standard, and that was in the
>  8th and 9th centuries, your "dark ages.">>
>
> but wasn't it also RW Rome who used older equipment in conjunction with
newer
> designs. the historical materials i have offer specific examples of the
> overlap of weapon and armor types...nothing going to waste....throughout
the
> roman history. it is even offered that parts of armors were reissued to
> subsequent generations of troops. new designs often came from neccessity
and
> experience against a particular opponent. however implementation of new
> designs was not unitarily done as one could easily see a mixture of
various
> torso armors, helms, weapons, and even shields within the same legion. add
to
> that that the period includes armaments being made by individual skilled
> craftsmen instead of an assembly line. even if these smiths are gathered
in
> mass under the same roofs, they are still individuals crafting weapons
based
> on a common idea or even design. there are going to be deviations. of
course
> for a fantasy setting i would place less a furtive role on this
deviatiation
> as long as the basic equipment variants are the same type....plate=plate,
> chainmail=chainmail.
>
>  >
>  > yes i objected. i also noted the use of mass casualties in a charge to
>  > both sides.
>  >
>  The problem is you only favor one side with such prowess, and not the
>  other, setting up situations where the side you favor can dish out ten
>  times as many casualties while their opponents stagger forward in an
>  insensate manner. All Rob & I were doing was pointing out why it isn't
>  nessissarily so that things will turn out in such a manner that your
>  boltmen can maximalize the casualties they inflict.>>
>
> nope... i intended to offer it from both sides' perspective and even
> clarified it in a later message to insure that it was not exclusive to
either
> side. the key to a battle where each side is evenly matched to a state of
> impasse is in maneuver and top avoid trench type fronts which would
involve
> charges of the opposing trenches.
>
>  >
>  > note that i said "most". <snipped middle>
>  > with this initial land gab, the need to expand was minimal.
>  >
>  "need to" is different from "trying or wanting to". That was my point.
>  >
>  > nope....for thyatis it depends on efficiency.
>  >
>  Again, one of those cases where you hold the opinion that mage troops can
>  dispatch 5 to 10 times their number of opposing forces, but that the
>  Thyatians wouldn't find a way to utlize them, and where I tend to
disagree
>  with that -- based upon statements in DotE. But once again, no amout of
>  back and forth opining is going to convince either of us, so this thread
>  grows futile.>>
>
> the mage troop reference is an assumption and confused with the boltmen
> examples. a mage troop is still a low level mage (m1 or m2) and only has a
> couple spells in his quiver. so obviously he cannot take out 5 to 10
> opponents with his spells. contrarily a boltman can IF he can unleash his
> wand's charges (which are 20 btw) before the enemy closes upon him.
there's
> nothing revolutionary about the way the boltmen would be protected by
regular
> infantry. and i also pointed out that with the boltmen's limited range
they
> would have to be a component of a ranged weapon umbrella. also of note are
> the specialized boltmen that are part of a boltmen unit that are equipped
> with wands with heavier offensive spells and protective spells (prot. from
> norm missiles, dispel). also their AC aren't that bad....AC8 to AC4
depending
> on rank.
>
>  > it depends on what firepower these mages can bring to thyatian
>  > formations as compared to the cost. alph on the other
>  > hand has that magic stereotype and is therefore obliged to have a
magical
>  > contingent in the armies, despite the costs to efficiency.
>  >
>  Except that you don't describe their being any: in fact, you make
arguments
>  exactly opposite of this. So which is it? Mages can dispatch some
multiple
>  of their number on the battlefield, or mages are a liability and not an
>  asset?>>
>
> no what i did was question the efficiency of mages in either empire's
forces.
> the difference is that magic plays less a social role in thyatis than
alph.
> since the thy emphasis is less on magic the costs in men and material to
> integrate mages into a typical unit is less a matter of custom than
> efficiency. i think for thy mages would be used to compliment and support
the
> fighters. conversely the alphs would use fighters to compliment and
support
> the mages. for some reason a reference to boltmen capabilities has been
> derived to encompass all battlefield mages....and usually in some manner
> deamed more favorable to alph.
>
>  >
>  > thyatis would have to consolidate its smaller pool of mages
>  > to man certain divisions with
>  > mages to get the %, by taking mages from other divisions and leaving
them
>  > completely fighter based.
>  >
>  Not completely fighter-based, since there's more than just mages, and
>  Thyatis has developed proficiency in its Clerical arm (per DotE) to a
>  higher degree than Alphatia, precisely to counter-balance their
mage-heavy
>  nature and comparative lack of a Clerical arm.
>  See also my Thyatian Military Variant for one example of exactly how
>  Thyatis can do what you say they cannot.>>
>
> what i mean is based entirely upon mage to fighter population ratios, army
> cross sections, and Warmachine Rules. alph has the highest ratio 1 in 5
being
> capable of casting mage spells. with 20% of the general populace capable
of
> mage magic the ability to amass a 20% spellcaster contingent within each
> force (and the Warmachine Rules BR bonus) is an almost given. conversely,
thy
> has a lower ratio. with a smaller caster pool it either has to equally
> apportion its casters to its units at below 20% levels or it has to focus
its
> casters to certain units to make up those 20% contingents. so i couldn't
say
> they could not intergrate mages. i don't think they could do it to the
extent
> that alph could. as for thy clerical numbers, i have no idea how many
there
> are. i don't think that one fift of thy are clerics. likewise i don't
think
> you'd find one fifth of the populace of the HK lands as clerics.
>
>  >
>  > it does say that the forces are kept to adequate levels.
>  >
>  Adiquate levels implies numbers, not quality.>>
>
> adequate means up to the task. since the task is the defense of alph and
the
> interests of alph empire a balance between numbers and quality to do the
job.
> if troops are not adequate, you make up with quality with quantity. so
> therefore i don't equate adequate alph forces with overwhelming numbers.
>
>  > given that thyatis
>  > is the intended adversary, it is feasible that the armed forces are
>  > engineered to meet that thyatian force on equal terms.
>  >
>  It would be interesting if you used that conversely: that Thyatian forces
>  would be engineered to meat the Alphatian force on equal terms. But you
do
>  not. Odd?>>
>
> well both alph and thy evolving their forces to meet each others forces is
> implied. however given the thy/alph axis of this discussion i chose the
alph
> side to demonstrate the adoption and adaptation of thy tactics. had i said
> that thy had adopted alph tactics i would have probably been responded to
as
> having alph setting the standards for the rivalry.
>
>   <<       Strikes me as odd - you refer to the Alpher manpower advantage,
but
>  dismiss arguments that the (magic-obsessed) mages might simply rely upon
>  using large numbers of (to them) expendible "mundaines" to overwhelm Thy
>  forces - while objecting to arguments that the Thyatians might try to
>  achieve a qualitative advantage in order to offset Alphatia's numerical
and
>  magical advantages. Again, this is an example where we can each write our
>  opinions several more times, but it wouldn't convince anyone.>>
>
> all i want is to dismiss the notion that alph entered wrath with armed
forces
> not manned by fighters of the worst quality, acting as sacrificial lambs
for
> the mages, but with a competent fighter base to support the mage
contingents.
> as mentioned i don't equate numbers as being the sole litmus test to an
> army's power level.
>
>  > fleet. however there is mention of the vague high cost to maintain the
>  > fleet and the opposition to its cost.
>  >
>  Which doesn't imply billions of gps by any means. IIRC, in effect you are
>  arguing that the Alphers have more skyships (each requiring 200 airmen
and
>  400 marines in the case of the Men-of-War) than you have on other
>  occassions argued that Thyatis has RAF men. And who is building what to
>  counter who's force? (actually, in effect both are, but that's another
>  matter).>>
>
> well a man-of-war or other skyship is pricey in its base cost. further
annual
> costs come into play as men and materials are brought in to operate and
> maintain the vessels. you have to pay and equip the light boltmen (mages
and
> wands), the heavy boltmen (fighter/marines), skyship sailors, officers,
> shipboard utilitarian staff, mundane engineers, magist engineers, and
> artillerists (cats and ballista). then there are the skyship logistical
> needs. you need a skyship base and a variety of base personel. it all adds
> up...imo to billions gps....if not trillions over the years. so billions
of
> gps is a relatively conservative pricetag for alph's years of investment
in
> the imperial skyship fleet.
> as far as personel, i'd agree that the alph fleet probably does outnumber
the
> RAF. the manpower demands of a skyship (especially a man-of-war) so alph
> personel numbers would probably be greater than the RAF. however i never
said
> that there were more skyships than RAF rider and mount pairings. the fact
is
> that i don't know and no official figures were given. that's one of the
> reasons that i am so interested in Rob's campaign with the alph fleet and
thy
> RAF. i am curious as to what numbers they decided upon and how they used
> them.
>
>  > <re fighters>
>  > just to be safe let me clarify. "nothing  to be feared" applies from
the
>  > alpher mage mentality and point of view.
>  >
>  And yet you argue in other areas that they would focus on building an
>  efficient army of fighters. Ok. If you don't see the disconnect, then
>  nothing I can say will show it.>>
>
> and nothing i say will change your stance. for some reason everything i
say
> is derived as being pro-alph despite the lack of that intent and remarks
> intent to clarify the across the board nature of them.
>
>  >
>  > the bagpipe references was unneeded and probably more atmospheric than
>  > literal.
>  >
>  Really? When it's in your interest, you argue that things should be
deemed
>  extremely significant. When not supportive of your argument, you think
they
>  should be dismissed. Makes it very hard - again, all that means is things
>  can be whatever one wants. You see the Alph armies as a force unequalled
on
>  Mystara, not only in numbers but man-for-man superior in every way to
their
>  Thyatian (and other) opponents. I demure. There isn't any way these
>  exchanges are going to change either of our minds.>>
>
> huh??....where did i say they were the unequalled force? likewise i never
> said the thys were bad. given my favoritism for the stalemate a degree of
> overall equality has to be present. if alph was overall superior no
stalemate
> would exist. as mentioned i just want the alph fighters to be recognized
as
> something more than walking and talking sacrificial shields for the mage
> minority.
>
>   << Elsewhere I said that IMO the Alpher armies were "good" (but not the
>  Ubermen described in PWA II), but that doesn't seem to be a concession
>  you're willing to grant the Thy forces, persisting in portraying them as
>  just hanging around waiting to be overun and not doing anything to try
and
>  change the balance of power (by becoming, for example, qualitatively
better
>  to offset the numerical superiority of the Alphatians)..>>
>
> that's all i wanted to get across was that the alph fighter troops get a
> degree of respectibility.
>
> ********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:55:20 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Gareth
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Hi to everyone.
I'm looking for someone who's working about the immortal Gareth.
I mean his dogma, his church, and his past.
I have developed some ideas and I want to share with others.
If none has still worked out Gareth, I'll be glad to send this work to the
list
Marco Fossati

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:05:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin
              adventures?)]
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96L.1000131141203.24367A-100000@unixs4.cis.pitt.edu>
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Mischa E Gelman wrote:

>
> > There is quite a gap between their freedom from the Red Orcs (800 BC IIRC?)
> > and the rise of the modern nations of the Old World, during which the
> > surrounding nations were decidedly more aggressive and technologically
> > advanced than the Atruaghin people (Darokin, for one, before its adoption of
> > Republicanism/Plutocracy).
>
> I don't have the Darokin GAZ, so can't comment on their historical
> attitude.
>
Darokin has never had the tech to successfully assault the plateau, and
the Eastwind kings spent most of their time trying to conquer the more
useful plains.


>
> > Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the
> > Tiger clan.
>
> But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to.
>
Not true.  The Tigers have at least twice the population of the Turtle
clans, no natural barriers, and just as good military technology.  There's
nothing to stop them spreading along the coast and occupying it bit by bit
and wiping out the Turtle Clan in the process.

And given they've had 1700 years in which to do this...

> > But what I find disappointing is that the Atruaghin cultures were "frozen" at
> > such technologically primitive levels.
>
> Are they really that much behind Karameikos or the Ethengar?
>
Yes.  The Ethengar are militarily superior to the Atruaghin clans and have
just as much of a tie to the land as they do (ie, the Atruaghin clans
have no advantage in the form of a closer tie to nature spirits). They're
also pastoralists, while none of the other tribes seem to have learned to
tame any animals except for horses.  They have metal forging, unlike the
Clans (except Children of the Tiger).

The Ethengars have the big disadvantage of not being very good at
cooperating with each other.

Karameikos is at an even higher level of technological development.  The
Atruaghin clans are less technologically advanced than the Karameikans
were 2000 years ago.  Windmills, superior mining and metalworking, magic
at a respectable level, superior medicine, brewing, superior
agricultural techniques (Plows, crop rotation, etc), the use of coins, and
a variety of other advances.


But I'm not surprised most of the tribes haven't advanced technologically;
lots of nomadic cultures with relatively lower tech levels have lived next
to higher tech groups in human history.  I would think the clans would
probably adopt metalworking, though; historically, the various North
American tribes quite happily discarded their old tools for metal ones
gained through trade, and quite happily adopted European weaponry.  It was
the fundamental way of life that they retained; things which easily
slotted into that were adopted.

The one tribe whose position is not viable is the Children of the Turtle,
who should have died at the hands of the Children of the Tiger by now.

> > didn't do more with them. It's almost as if he were saying that, given a few
> > more centuries (in this case, over a millenia) of progress- relatively
> > undisturbed progress- the Amerindian cultures still wouldn't have progressed
> > beyond the "primitive" levels they were in when the Europeans arrived.
>
> Maybe that would have been the case.  Cultures tend to be pretty static,
> right, unless a major outside event affects things?   Did the Native
> Americans progress greatly before the arrival of white folk?
>
It's quite plausible for the tribes to remain at their current
technological level so long as outside pressures don't force them.  I do
think they would have adopted things which would be compatible with their
lifestyles, though.



John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:43:13 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Almanac 1016 survey
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Hi everyone!

Now that one month has passed and you've had plenty of time to swallow and
digest the mammooth Mystaran Almanac 1016, I'd like to hear some opinions
from all of you readers, since, as u may know, feedback is what we Editors
feed off. ;)

So please, let us know on this forum at least one positive and one negative
comment about the almanac, that's to say tell us what you liked most and
what you disliked, and what you'd like to see. This way we'll try to
improve it for next year! :)

Thanx to all of you who will participate to this survey ;)


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html

Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:20:20 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin
              adventures?)]
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote:

> At 02:22 PM 1/31/00 -0500, Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU> wrote:
> >
>
> Compared to the other clans, yes. Compared to the armies of, say, Sind or
> Darokin? The outsiders are better equipped, more mobile (at least against

The army of Sind is a bunch of pathetic losers in leather armor.  Their
chariots would useless in forest campaigns, their cavalry wouldn't be much
better, their archers would have a hard time in forest combat, elephants
are in fact, mostly useless in battle against an opponent with half a
brain, and their spear carrying, leather armor wearing footmen would not
be a match for physically superior Atruaghins clanners.

Sind can be discounted, especially since they typically have to spend
their energies battling desert nomads and other threats.

Modern Darokin is basically defensive, Monarchical Darokin's war against
Alfheim demonstrated its forces were too inept to successfully defeat any
half-way intelligent force in a forest.

If Modern Darokin really decided to conquer the Tiger and Turtle Clans,
they'd win, but it would be a long, bloody guerilla war of the kind that a
merchant republic is unlikely to conduct because it isn't profitable.
There would also be serious supply-line problems.


But if the clans attacked Darokin or Sind, they'd get stomped; on level
plains, they'd probably be no match for either.


> issues that lasts for three years. If they are willing to engage in warfare
> with elves (whom the Gaz points out were formerly allies/suppliers of the
> humans during the Orcwars) over minor issues, then surely they wouldn't
> have hesitated to attack the Tiger Clanners down to the southwest (who
> would have likely been as big a threat to the early settlers as the orcs)?
>
And see how well it went against the Elves.

> While I can't see the Republic advocating genocide against the Tiger clan
> in modern times, I can certainly see the monarchy of old Darokin (or even
> just loosely allied settlers) striking out against the terrorizing raiders
> to the west.
>
They probably did.  They'd kill a few Tiger Clanners, run out of food,
maybe sack a city and go home.  Hauling a siege train through wilderness
and thick forest is hard enough that I doubt they'd be able to mount a
successful occupying offensive.


> In any case, given the Tiger Clan's warlike nature, surely they would
> *want* to develop the technologies of their neighbors, in order to more
> capably undertake their warfare practices? The Azcan (from whom they are

That, on the other hand, is a very good point.  The Tiger Clan's failure
to adopt some forms of outside military technology is inexplicable.
(Failure to adopt armor is the result of living ina  sweltering rain
forest)


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:19:12 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics v Magic
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> And every nation tries to have his army strong in every zone, navy, air
and
> ground forces, so why Alphatia cannot host a strong ordinary army?
>
A strong army is one thing (note that though you replied to me you seem to
have missed where I said I thought Alphatian troops would be "good" - the
question is whether that means "excellent" or "better than everyone
elses").

Each of the nations of Mystara has its strength, the things it is known
for. Ierendi is know for its navy. Minrothad for its seafaring merchants.
Darokin for its caravan traders. Thyatis for its warriors. Alphatia is not
known for the strength of its army - it's known for its mages. I'm sorry if
people don't like that, but if they don't they can create an "alternate"
Alphatia - just don't say that this is the Alphatia that exists.

Various folks say "well,  alph fighters are by no means the bumbling fools
taking the blows from opposing forces at the behest of the mages."
        The only thing statements like that imply is that the folks holding that
opinion haven't read DotE. The Alphatian cultural mindset is *PRECISELY*
that with respect to their fighters (and the rest of their non-spellcasting
population).
        Again, what folks want to do in their own campaign, with their own version
of Alphatia, is perfectly acceptable. But don't try to claim that this is
Alphatia as it appears in DotE.
        Here's a challenge for those who think Alphatia holds its warriors in any
regard or esteme and insures they are well trained and led: DotE mentions
that Halflings (a very small % of the Alphatian population) can become
spellcasting Aristocrats by becoming Hin Masters. Find one reference
anywhere in DotE, PWA I, II, or III, or JA regarding Alphatian Fighters
becoming Paladins or Avengers and, by gaining spellcasting powers, becoming
aristocrats and therefore earning the respect of the magical ruling class.
Just one. Any small reference from DotE, any of the PWAs, or JA will do.
        Alphatia can have an ok standing army - but it doesn't excell in that
category. That is not their forte'. Not per DotE at least. Note also that
"trying" to have a strong army doesn't insure that one does. No doubt every
nation in the real world tries to have a strong army. No doubt Syria &
Egypt thought and hoped they had a strong enough army in '73 to take out
Israel (and their population outnumbered the Israelis by far more than
Alphatia's population outnumbers Thyatis, or probably even Glantri) - but
dispite efforts to improve it, they were only partially successful and they
lost badly. Wanting and getting are two different things - especially when
you're hampered by a cultural mindset that doesn't take military types,
warriors, very seriously.
        Anyhow, I've said my peace. Folks can and will have the Alphatia that they
want. The pretense that they are upholding the Alphatia that is described
in DotE is, however, . . .well, I suppose I shouldn't say what I think of
that because it will only cause hurt feelings.
        But in your hearts, you know I'm right.

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:54:35 -0800
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Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
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I would not discount the massive armies of Sind.  Those massive armies are augmented by massive armies of humanoids.  There are hordes of these humanoids from Hule.

There are also armies containing units of wyvern rider spellcasters.  Not every unit in Sind will wear leather armor and combat those in Plate.  I'm sure, that there will be units with heavier armor and weapons.  Most likely these would be from the eastern cities.

They probaly would not be interested in attacking the plateau because there is no strong economical gain from this.  Darokin is lucrative, and is surrounded by other lucrative countries like Five Shires, Karameikos and Ylaruam.

There might be some interest on the western border for the trees.

--

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:20:20    Ranma Al'Thor wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote:
>
>> At 02:22 PM 1/31/00 -0500, Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU> wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Compared to the other clans, yes. Compared to the armies of, say, Sind or
>> Darokin? The outsiders are better equipped, more mobile (at least against
>
>The army of Sind is a bunch of pathetic losers in leather armor.  Their
>chariots would useless in forest campaigns, their cavalry wouldn't be much
>better, their archers would have a hard time in forest combat, elephants
>are in fact, mostly useless in battle against an opponent with half a
>brain, and their spear carrying, leather armor wearing footmen would not
>be a match for physically superior Atruaghins clanners.
>
>Sind can be discounted, especially since they typically have to spend
>their energies battling desert nomads and other threats.
>
>Modern Darokin is basically defensive, Monarchical Darokin's war against
>Alfheim demonstrated its forces were too inept to successfully defeat any
>half-way intelligent force in a forest.
>
>If Modern Darokin really decided to conquer the Tiger and Turtle Clans,
>they'd win, but it would be a long, bloody guerilla war of the kind that a
>merchant republic is unlikely to conduct because it isn't profitable.
>There would also be serious supply-line problems.
>
>
>But if the clans attacked Darokin or Sind, they'd get stomped; on level
>plains, they'd probably be no match for either.
>
>
>> issues that lasts for three years. If they are willing to engage in warfare
>> with elves (whom the Gaz points out were formerly allies/suppliers of the
>> humans during the Orcwars) over minor issues, then surely they wouldn't
>> have hesitated to attack the Tiger Clanners down to the southwest (who
>> would have likely been as big a threat to the early settlers as the orcs)?
>>
>And see how well it went against the Elves.
>
>> While I can't see the Republic advocating genocide against the Tiger clan
>> in modern times, I can certainly see the monarchy of old Darokin (or even
>> just loosely allied settlers) striking out against the terrorizing raiders
>> to the west.
>>
>They probably did.  They'd kill a few Tiger Clanners, run out of food,
>maybe sack a city and go home.  Hauling a siege train through wilderness
>and thick forest is hard enough that I doubt they'd be able to mount a
>successful occupying offensive.
>
>
>> In any case, given the Tiger Clan's warlike nature, surely they would
>> *want* to develop the technologies of their neighbors, in order to more
>> capably undertake their warfare practices? The Azcan (from whom they are
>
>That, on the other hand, is a very good point.  The Tiger Clan's failure
>to adopt some forms of outside military technology is inexplicable.
>(Failure to adopt armor is the result of living ina  sweltering rain
>forest)
>
>
>John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
>ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
>rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
>rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/
>
>Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
>HE and other types above 50 mm.
>--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"
>
>********************************************************************
>The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
>Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
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>


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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:07:35 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Modules for Sale-Commercial site
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--

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:52:46   Eleanor Williams wrote:
>Listings at Sages Guild
>
>The Sages' Guild - Your WWW Source for Used Role Playing Game Materials
>
(rest snipped)

Pardom me for asking, but Sages Guild doesn't accept creditcards like my Visa card, does it? I looked around some time ago and got the impression that only Hit-Pointe and Titan-Games accept credit cards, and while other companies (like Sages Guild) seem to have more material available, I probably won't pay my bank for a check in US dollars, since the banks here charge large amounts of money for that sort of thing.

   - The Stalker



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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:32:52 -0600
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:

> I would not discount the massive armies of Sind.  Those massive armies
>are augmented by massive armies of humanoids.  There are hordes of these
>humanoids from Hule.
>
I'm thinking of the Pre-conquest by the Master of the Desert Nomads army.
In the period from the 700s BC to 1000 AC, Sind did not have massive
armies of humanoids.

> There are also armies containing units of wyvern rider spellcasters.
>Not every unit in Sind will wear leather armor and combat those in Plate.
>I'm sure, that there will be units with heavier armor and weapons.  Most
>likely these would be from the eastern cities.
>
There are some small units with heavier armor, yes.  But the climate of
both Sind and the southern Atruaghins lands tends to discourage the use of
armor, and armor is the main tech advantage that non-Atruaghin
civilizations have combat wise, since the CoA don't build cities that need
beseiging (except for the oddball Children of the Tiger).  But those
heavier units are not going to be particularly adept at the sort of
guerilla warfare involved in trying to conquer heavily forested areas with
few to no roads and no strategic points to seize.

Now, if they get up on top of the plateau, they'd probably pound the
Children of the Horse flat (they are used to fighing nomads in open
areas), but against the Children of the Elk and the Turtle, Sind doesn't
have the right kind of forces with the right kind of training.  Sindhi
armies are used to straight up fighting, not guerilla warfare in forest
terrain, and probably most Sindhi soldiers have never seen a forest, let
alone fought in one.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:33:41 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
Organization: HotBot Mail  (http://mail.hotbot.com:80)
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA]Atruaghin
              adventures?)]
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Just responding to some [snip]its.
--

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:22:15   Mischa E Gelman wrote:
[snip]


>> But I find it very difficult to buy that the Atruaghin peoples of the lowlands
>> (Turtle and Tiger clans, to be specific)

The Tiger clan is NOT really a tiger clan, but a Viper clan.  There were no tigers in the vicinity, thus how can the culture identify with "Tigers".  Also, in the RW, there were no "tigers" for Meso-American cultures.

>>haven't advanced beyond their former
>> levels. They are right in the thick of things. The Tiger Clan, at least,
>> should have embraced the technologies of the surrounding nations- or been
>> destroyed for their aggressive tendencies.
>
>The Tigers are in jungle which no one wants.  Any invader is in VERY
>hostile territory which plays against their hands, unless for some reason
>elves invaded.

I don't think the area would be considered "jungle" unless the equator is in a bizarre pattern.  They have thick forests, but they are far from being a "jungle".

The land is very lucrative and I'm sure that people would desire this.  However, this might not be in Darokin's best interest as they have to fight against both Viper/Tiger clan and Lizardmen.  It's not in Sind's interests because Darokin is richer, and they would have to go through the forest, suffering heavy losses with little gain due to hit & run tactics and guerilla warfare.

>> Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the
>> Tiger clan.
>
>But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to.

The Turtles are one with nature.  It's not in their philosphy.  They are insignificant in the eyes of others, and they are content with the balance of things.  To evaluate them as a militarily is not correct as they do not see themselves in this light.

Nevertheless, both cultures Turtles and Viper/Tigers will develop through trade and naturally acquire technology.  The Turtles may bew interested in tools to improve the hunt and make things.  The Tigers/Vipers would be interested in items of war and magic, in addition to tools.

I set the campaign at what I call Trade Level 0, where information and technology is not readily passed between nations.  Then I evolve all the nations through trade in each given year.  The first thing to go is the trimes of Thyatis and replace this with clippers or merchant ships.  Later, the countries gain firesticks.  I imagine Darokin and Minrothad play a big role in this.

>> But what I find disappointing is that the Atruaghin cultures were "frozen" at
>> such technologically primitive levels.

Start everyone at zero and then evolve them through trade.  But remember their cultural values.  They may not be interested in weapons.  Most native tribes in America acquired fire-arms quickly as a counter-balance against the invaders.  The Meso-Americans never got a chance, but before the conquistadors, they were fairly evolved in trade.  The Mayans had trade routes to Incas, Florida, Teochitlan, Tlaxcala, etc.  One Native-American tribe (Azistani??) had a massive network of roads (pre-freeway system).  They were intelligent and agressive traders, so I imagine they would evolve rapidly as long as they do not war with themselves and neigboring nations.

[snip]
>Maybe that would have been the case.  Cultures tend to be pretty static,
>right, unless a major outside event affects things?   Did the Native
>Americans progress greatly before the arrival of white folk?

Yes they did indeed.  But then they disappeared.  It's still a Mystery today.  The area known as Teotihuacan (City of the Gods) was suppose to be the biggest city in the world around 1200 AD.  The natives used advanced farming techniques such as hydroponics.  The Mayans still have very advanced agricultural methods that are being studied by agricultural engineers to this day.  I bet even some modern medicines were derived from native herbalism.  The Aztecs had aquaducts, advanced architecture, educational system, legal system, astronomy, mathematics.  To this day, the most accurate calendar in the world is the Aztec calendar.  Earlier natives Azistani were quite advanced as were the Cohokia with their large cities, fortifications, structured society.  During certain times, the natives were more advanced than Europeans.

>> Which to me, is ignoring a prime opportunity for some great fantasy
>> development.
>
[snip]
>
>
>> I think the Atruaghin were/are a wonderful minefield of fantasy
>> experimentation that were woefully undeveloped. How about the people that
>> might live *inside* the plateau? Or that live in the forests north of the
>> Turtle Clan and west of the Tiger Clan? (Note: I plan on doing something with
>> both of these ideas... someday. :(

Great ideas.

>Can't wait to see them, in addition to the Ghyr project and whatever else
>you're working on.  Did the project based on your thoul work ever come to
>be BTW?
>
>> Anyway, enough ranting about the Atruaghin people. As you can tell, they are
>> sort of a pet peeve of mine. The greatest Mystaran culture that never was.

They could be great, but they need to trade to get technology.  However, don't evaluate the promincence of a culture solely by their prowess at war.

>*cough* Traladara *cough* Ochaleans *cough* Hutaakans *cough*
>
>Lots of groups deserved more material than they got IMO.  Just look at
>every single Blackmoor culture!  The Atruaghin case dain't bother me as
>much as ones like the Nithians, where the source material obscured as much
>as it elucidated.

True, True.  But at least the Nithians are covered in a Hollow World supplement.  I wanted to see at least a pre-Heldannic Knights Heldann Freeholds.



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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:44:07 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      a new set of maps is available: The Alatian Islands!!
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Hear ye!! Hear ye!!
The Alatian Islands are now available at my site.They drawn in 8 miles
per hex and are downloadable both in ping version and in gif.I hope you
will all enjoy those maps.
I am waiting for comments and remarks.

Would you rather want the Pearl Islands and Ochelea or The Isle of Dawn
(in 8 miles per hex)?
Please send me your answers before saturday 12PM.I'll do as you wish...

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:44:53 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
Organization: HotBot Mail  (http://mail.hotbot.com:80)
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
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[snip]

Snipped alot but added some cool adventure ideas.  See below.

>> > Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the
>> > Tiger clan.
>>
>> But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to.
>>
>Not true.  The Tigers have at least twice the population of the Turtle
>clans, no natural barriers, and just as good military technology.  There's
>nothing to stop them spreading along the coast and occupying it bit by bit
>and wiping out the Turtle Clan in the process.

This would be a great adventure.  I imagine this would be the natural track.  The Turtles, would soon be restricted to islands.  The only counter-balance would be Darokin invasion and/or Lizardmen conflict.  Or perhaps, the Viper/Tiger clan is too successful and poses a threat to Five Shires.

Sometimes warfare, you always try to whipe out the strongest holding first.  This severely weakens the enemy allow you to make further inroads, while at the same time increasing your power base.  Attacking the weaker enemy (Turtle)will cause other opponents (Darokin) to become stronger.

I think the Viper/Tiger would focus on invading Malpheggi settlements and removing Darokin from this area.  This could be a great adventure.  Perhaps they wait until the Desert Nomads strike.  Maybe the Master knows of the possibilities and contacts the leaders of the Viper clan to attack when the Sind forces invade.

In another adventure idea, the Sind forces could assist the Turtles (making them a protectorate).  This would be natural due to the resources available in the forested land.  This would also setup for the eventual invasion of the Viper clan area.

Alternatively, an inventive GM with some historical knowledge of Meso-Native and American-Natives could add some tribes which are allied against the Vipers.  Personally I think that this idea could create the utopian balance (as found in other areas), making things...well...boring.  Maybe a combination of both has the best results.

[snip]


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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:50:58 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= <anpro@ACCESOCERO.ES>
Subject:      Re: Modules for Sale-Commercial site
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>
> Pardom me for asking, but Sages Guild doesn't accept creditcards like my
Visa card, does it? I looked around some time ago and got the impression
that only Hit-Pointe and Titan-Games accept credit cards, and while other
companies (like Sages Guild) seem to have more material available, I
probably won't pay my bank for a check in US dollars, since the banks here
charge large amounts of money for that sort of thing.
>
I had the same problem, being in Spain. But I asked the SagesGuild and they
accept Western Union money orders, just ask the owner of the site for his
name and address, and you can use WU (no commercial intention here, ADMIN)
or any similar international money order agency... they do not charge too
much and you may find them in any major city of town.

Andr�s

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:00:10 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      Re: Why the black dots
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As an answer to jmenchaca@informatica.com:

As i was first converting the map contained in DotE i used my usual
technique (detailed in my site) which consist in having one 24 mile hex
correspond to 7  hexes (8 miles each).
thus when sticking then together there are 6 black hexes around each
group of 7. (still following me?)Anyway, my first intend was to cover
the whole IoD by doing several maps and then i'll work on everyone of
them separately to fill the black hexes with hexes similar to those
around.Then i'll do a general smoothering  to alter the shape so that it
does not look too geometric (that's the moment when your opinions would
be well recieved).
If i was not clear , i'll do my best to clarify my point.

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:08:46 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:

>
> >> > Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the
> >> > Tiger clan.
> >>
> >> But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to.
> >>
> >Not true.  The Tigers have at least twice the population of the Turtle
> >clans, no natural barriers, and just as good military technology.  There's
> >nothing to stop them spreading along the coast and occupying it bit by bit
> >and wiping out the Turtle Clan in the process.
>
> This would be a great adventure.  I imagine this would be the natural
>track.  The Turtles, would soon be restricted to islands.  The only
>counter-balance would be Darokin invasion and/or Lizardmen conflict.  Or
>perhaps, the Viper/Tiger clan is too successful and poses a threat to
>Five Shires.
>
They'd need to conquer Southern Darokin first, which would be a challenge.


> Sometimes warfare, you always try to whipe out the strongest holding
>first.  This severely weakens the enemy allow you to make further
>inroads, while at the same time increasing your power base.  Attacking
>the weaker enemy (Turtle)will cause other opponents (Darokin) to become
>stronger.
>
Darokin is a largely defensive nation.  They also don't have much
particular contact with the Turtle Clan.  If the Tigers wipe them out,
they can spend a few decades turning the Turtle lands into new homes for
themselves, then deal with Darokin.  They can plausibly conquer the Turtle
Clan's lands; Darokin, on the othr hand, would be much more of a fight.

But also importantly, they have a traditional grudge to settle with the
other clans, while Darokin is just another future conquest victim.

> I think the Viper/Tiger would focus on invading Malpheggi settlements
>and removing Darokin from this area.  This could be a great adventure.
>Perhaps they wait until the Desert Nomads strike.  Maybe the Master knows
>of the possibilities and contacts the leaders of the Viper clan to attack
>when the Sind forces invade.
>
I could see them doing that in the context of an alliance with the Desert
Master.  I'm sure they've learned from experience that Darokin is too big
a nut for them to crack by themselves.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 02:09:03 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Atraughin culture
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--

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:44:53    Darth Darknerd wrote:
(snip)
>
>This would be a great adventure.  I imagine this would be the natural track.  The Turtles, would soon be restricted to islands.  The only counter-balance would be Darokin invasion and/or Lizardmen conflict.


Hmmm, I actually ran an adventure similar to this one several years ago. I stole it outright from an adventure in Dungeon. It was for the Greyhawk campaign I think, but it worked rather well with little fuss or changes required on my part (perhaps because Grayhawk is almost as illogical a world as Mystara - I mean look at the sort of nations they have right next to each other).

If you're interested look in Dungeon no.32. I don't have it anymore myself (another kind DM wanted to borrow it and it seems that he liked it so much, that he never bothered to return it). But I know it was in no. 32. Basically, I had the PCs travelling between Athenos and Darokin City when a shaman (or whatever) of the Turtle clan came running toward them having been pursued through much of the Malpheggi Swamp by members of the Tiger clan. The PCs naturally had to rescue her, and then stop the ongoing conquest of the Turtle clan by the Tiger clan. The players really liked it, and I must admit that it worked better than I'd expected (ah, the memories of old...) ;)

   - The Stalker



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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:30:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghin              adventures?)]
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> The Tiger clan is NOT really a tiger clan, but a Viper clan.  There were
> no tigers in the vicinity, thus how can the culture identify with
> "Tigers".  Also, in the RW, there were no "tigers" for Meso-American
> cultures.

I really disliked how they changed the name within the GAZ a few times -
it showed a lack of quality editing.  Overall, a good product though.

> Yes they did indeed.  But then they disappeared.  It's still a Mystery
> today.  The area known as Teotihuacan (City of the Gods) was suppose to
> be the biggest city in the world around 1200 AD.  The natives used
> advanced farming techniques such as hydroponics.  The Mayans still have
> very advanced agricultural methods that are being studied by
> agricultural engineers to this day.  I bet even some modern medicines
> were derived from native herbalism.  The Aztecs had aquaducts, advanced
> architecture, educational system, legal system, astronomy, mathematics.
> To this day, the most accurate calendar in the world is the Aztec
> calendar.  Earlier natives Azistani were quite advanced as were the
> Cohokia with their large cities, fortifications, structured society.
> During certain times, the natives were more advanced than Europeans.

I don't think the Atruaghin, except the Vipers, are meant as a comparison
to the southern Mesoamerican cultures.  The Children of the Horse seem to
be Plains Indians, the Children of the Bear some of the New Mexico/Arizona
Indians and the Children of the Turtle I'm not quite sure - some Canadian
groups?.

- Mischa

A city is composed of different kinds of men;similar people cannot bring a
city into existence - Aristotle

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:39:59 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Magister Mystaros <Mystaros@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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In a message dated 2/1/00 8:32:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
megst19+@PITT.EDU writes:

<< I don't think the Atruaghin, except the Vipers, are meant as a comparison
 to the southern Mesoamerican cultures.  The Children of the Horse seem to
 be Plains Indians, the Children of the Bear some of the New Mexico/Arizona
 Indians and the Children of the Turtle I'm not quite sure - some Canadian
 groups?. >>

These are the RW comparisons for the Atruaghin tribes that I use:

Children of the Horse: Siouan (Northern Plains Amerindians)
Children of the Elk: Iroquoian & (eastern) Algonquian (Eastern Amerindians)
Children of the Bear: Shoshonean & (southern) Athapascan (Southwestern
Amerindians)
Children of the Turtle: Salishan (Northwestern Amerindians)
Children of the Viper: Aztec & Muskhogean (Meso-Amerindians and Southeastern
Amerindians)

I changed the map around a little bit. IMC the entire top of the plateau is
the domain of the Children of the Horse, while the Children of the Bear live
along the entire north and western walls of the plateau. The Children of the
Elk now reside in the deep forests in the shadow of the plateau (to the
south, which officially is kind of barren), while the Children of the Turtle
have fewer lands deep into the forest, but now spread along the coast to
Narwhal Cape. The Children of the Viper have mostly the same territory,
though they have lost a little to the Children of the Turtle and the Children
of the Elk. This is not after a war or anything; it just made more sense to
me as a starting point, otherwise much of the land "held" by the Children of
the Horse would go unused. The section of land held by Darokin that lies
between the Viper and Elk clans and the Arbandrine River is pretty much
straight out of Conan (Read "Beyond the Black River"). Port Tenobar has a bit
of a "penal colony" feel to it (never got touched on in GAZ 11 ya know) and
Fort Nar and Fort Marny feel like settlements straight out of "The Last of
the Mohicans" crossed with "Fort Tuscelan".

BTW, in my version of Port Tenobar, the trade goods are changed: Weapons
(+3), Armor (+2) and Grains (+1) now sell at more than market value and
common furs (-3), rare furs (-1) and common wood (-2) now sell at less than
market value.

James A. Mishler
Magister Mystaros
Check out my website:
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:11:24 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Gazeteers
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doods, i just got my first two gazeteers EVER, and they are extremely
amazingly packed to the gills with information on things i never even knew i
would wonder about.  They are a little hard to follow though, so can anyone
point me in the direction of areas I should focus on as a GM?  I am planning
a campaign in the Emirates, and i have that Gazeteer, and any helpful tips
would surely be appreciated by this perpetually confused little elf.  Thanks!
 Oh, adventure ideas would be helpful.

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:12:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
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I have three suggestions that help me out a GREAT deal.

1) Purchase an Arabic-English Dictionary. The one I bought
    is less than $10 and even has simple phrases in it that can
    be great for giving the game flavor.

2) Read about desert survival...

3) Purchase a copy of the Tales of the Arabian Nights, these
    are chock full of so many adventure ideas that it is doubtful
    that you will complete even a fraction of them once you begin
    to integrate them into the world of Mystara.

Hope this helps, and much luck!

    George
----- Original Message -----
From: Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:11 PM
Subject: [MYSTARA] Gazeteers


> doods, i just got my first two gazeteers EVER, and they are extremely
> amazingly packed to the gills with information on things i never even knew
i
> would wonder about.  They are a little hard to follow though, so can
anyone
> point me in the direction of areas I should focus on as a GM?  I am
planning
> a campaign in the Emirates, and i have that Gazeteer, and any helpful tips
> would surely be appreciated by this perpetually confused little elf.
Thanks!
>  Oh, adventure ideas would be helpful.
>
> Meltheim the Shadowstalker
>     Infiltrator to the Immortals
>         Devotee of Fate
>             Eyes of the Starwatcher
>
> ********************************************************************
> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
> Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:49:12 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Site/Map Update!
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Greetings.

Okay, I've done some changes to my Eastern Gulf of Hule map. As I was working on
my Savage Baronies map (which is so large it actually causes memory errors if I
work with it too long) it became clear that the maps needed roads and trails,
and that I'd have to do something about the typeface's near invisibility.

So, I have outlined the text in an almost-white color, which defeats the
opaque/translucense issue with Paint, and also makes the map much easier to read
(If a bit cluttered.) I also altered the color of the cities and urban symbols
to a very dark gray instead of black, which is a bit softer on the eye.

Please let me know what you think, but don't expect the Savage Baronies anytime
soon... doing text outlines by hand takes far too long. If anyone can tell me a
paint program that will outline any text in any color you want I will be
indebted to you for life.

IronWolf

http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/

"It's Specularum, damn it!"

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:56:50 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re:
              [MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
In-Reply-To:  <NAAMJCICJGDHAAAA@hotbot.com>
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At 02:44 PM 2/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Alternatively, an inventive GM with some historical knowledge of Meso-
>Native and American-Natives could add some tribes which are allied against
>the Vipers.  Personally I think that this idea could create the utopian
>balance (as found in other areas), making things...well...boring.  Maybe a
>combination of both has the best results.

Funny you mention that. I actually started to do that some time ago, with a
clan I called the "Viper" clan- in this case, the "real" Viper clan-
outside scholars mixed up the Tiger and this clan as foreign scholars are
wont to do sometimes. :)

I based them on the Mound building cultures of North America. They build
mounds in the shape of serpents, and are tied to the Green Dragon that
lives in the area (sort of... they're not bad, nor are they controlled by
it. They just know of it and sort of incorporate its image into their
artwork and buildings). I didn't get much farther than that, though, but
they are (as I have them) better organized than the Turtle clan, and are
numerous enough and strong enough to provide a suitable counterbalance to
the Tiger clan.

-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:56:16 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E
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In a message dated 2000-01-31 1:40:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes:

<< I'm not sure that we need to wait till 3E is out
 before we start designing our own circles.  I think
 that it might be a good idea to design the circles for
 Mystaran immortals, and then work our way down from
 there (down to the 3E clerics of course).  We can (and
 should) use the 3E rules for clerics, but should we be
 limited to the circles that they provide? >>

One thing we need to keep in mind is that there should be
some cultural influences that might hide the exact affiliation
of any particular Immortal.  To cite a couple of examples:

Priests of Tubak, if that Immortal is interpreted as being Ixion's
aspect of Law as revered in Ethengar, would certainly have
Law as one of their spheres even if it turns out that Ixion himself
has no particular association with that domain.

Priests of Balthac would have a selection of spheres (almost
certainly including War) that would give no clue that an Entropic
Immortal is their real patron.

However, for those Immortals who are more direct about such
things, it might be a useful exercise to go through WotI and
list all of the special priest abilities by Immortal sphere and
see if any patterns develop.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:55:54 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin
              ...
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In a message dated 2000-01-31 2:32:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
megst19+@PITT.EDU writes:

<< Maybe that would have been the case.  Cultures tend to be pretty static,
 right, unless a major outside event affects things?   Did the Native
 Americans progress greatly before the arrival of white folk?  >>

It is more a case of available plant and animal resources as well as the
pressures and opportunities provided by population growth.  In the real
world the Eurasian landmass includes an agricultural belt that stretched
for thousands of miles east and west and contained most of the world's
grain crops and domesticable animals.  Competition among its many
groups of people ensured a continous and eventually accelerating rate
of technological progress, as any culture that lagged significantly behind
the others became ripe for conquest.  The rest of the world was divided
into small, isolated regions with limited choices of crops and domesticable
animals and thus did not have a chance of keeping up once Eurasia got
out of the Stone Age.

In the case of the Atruaghin Clans, the key to their level of development is
just how isolated their plateau really is.  Certainly prior to 1010 AC or so
their contact with the rest of the world was very limited, and so they might
well have remained at a primitive level of technology.  However, during the
PWA era they were conquered by Alphatian mercenaries -- an event that
would have changed their culture forever regardless of the final outcome.
I would suggest that within a few years they would be wielding steel weapons
(stolen or acquired by trade) and wearing magic bracers, rings, and cloaks
for protection.  Those tribes with cultural aversions to missile weapons
would have overcome them when they saw the necessity for them.

In fact, to leave the Atruaghin Plateau in the most interesting possible
state, I would suggest that the Alphatians did indeed conquesr all of the
tribes but that the tribes did not successfully revolt.  Instead, various
families and clans managed to escape from Alphatian influence and hide
out in areas beyond their control.  Eventually a mosaic of different cultures
would emerge on the plateau, with some areas completely occupied by
Alphatians, others where a small Alphatian elite dominate Atruaghin
natives, others where the natives are under Alphatian influence but not
control, and finally a very few isolated clans who maintain their "pure" way
of life far away from those areas dominated by the Alphatians.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:55:57 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atruaghin
              adven...
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In a message dated 2000-02-01 2:22:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

<< If Modern Darokin really decided to conquer the Tiger and Turtle Clans,
 they'd win, but it would be a long, bloody guerilla war of the kind that a
 merchant republic is unlikely to conduct because it isn't profitable.
 There would also be serious supply-line problems.  >>

On the other hand, if Darokin developed signifant population pressures,
the woodlands inhabited the the Children of the Tiger would seem to be
an excellent area to colonize.  All they would have to do is move to the
edge of the forest, chop down as many of the trees as are needed to
build a fort or two, and then slaughter any Tiger folk who come out of
the woods to attack the settlers.  As I see it the main advances by
Darokin would be accomplished by gradual deforestation rather than
by direct conquest.  I would assume that Darokin has not done this
because they still have plenty of room for settlers in safer areas.

In a message dated 2000-02-01 5:35:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
darknerd@HOTBOT.COM writes:

<< The land is very lucrative and I'm sure that people would desire this.
However, this might not be in Darokin's best interest as they have to fight
against both Viper/Tiger clan and Lizardmen. >>

Not if the Darokinians come in from the northeast and avoid the swamps....

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:55:55 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Redesign, 3E
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Okay, here is an allocation of special abilities by sphere, as given in the
Immortal descriptions in WotI:

Energy:

+1 to wisdom, intelligence, and/or strength
Awareness as mystic
Blind shooting skill
Detect deception
Detect secret doors as elf
Engineering
Hit points on d8
Infravision
Initiative +1
Produce fire
Resist fire
Save vs. rod/staff/spell at +1 to +2
Turn undead at +1
Use bows or axes in combat

Entropy:

AC bonus +2 vs. demi-humans
Alertness
Backstab as thief
Cause light wounds
Control undead
Darkness
Find/remove traps
Hear noise
Persuasion
Pick pocket
Tracking
Use daggers or scythes in combat

Matter:

Continual light
Detect lie
Druid spells of level 1-2
Fly
Infravision
Locate
Remove fear
Resistance as mystic
Save vs. rod/staff/spell at +1
Speak with animals
Turn undead at +2
Ventriloquism

Thought:

Attack goblinoids at +2 to hit
Detect secret doors as elf
Endurance
Hide in shadows as thief
Initiative +1
Move silently as thief
Protection from evil
Use any of a variety of edged/pointed weapons in combat

Time:

+1 to strength
Druid spells of level 1-2
Hide in shadows
Initiative +2
Leadership
Move silently
Swimming
Use swords, daggers, or lances in combat
Water breathing

If any of you see a pattern to these sets of abilities, then we may
have a way to allocate 3E domains by Sphere.  However, with the
exception of about half the abilitied listed under Entropy, these
lists look fairly random in nature to me.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:55:56 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's all the fuss about a structure to the multiverse?
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In a message dated 2000-02-01 12:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU writes:

<< Not to throw a wrnech or anything, but what's wrong with the structure we
 have now?  >>

Not a thing.  However, what I was trying to come up with was for a way for
the D&D cosmos (as summarized in your message and detailed in such
works as WotI) and the AD&D cosmos (as detailed in Planescape and
MotP) to coexist without one being twisted to fit into the other, as was done
with the assignment of Mystaran Immortals to AD&D Outer Planes in
"Warriors of Heaven".  At least the scheme I proposed would permit the
two "meta-planes" as I called them to preserve their unique features by
suggesting that neither cosmology is the complete picture.

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Date:         Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:40:23 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
In-Reply-To:  <3f.6cb02e.25c8f2ff@aol.com>
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At 09:39 PM 2/1/00 EST, you wrote:
>
>These are the RW comparisons for the Atruaghin tribes that I use:
>
>Children of the Horse: Siouan (Northern Plains Amerindians)

Siouans? Wouldn't the Apache be more closely matched (Athabaskans, to be
sure, but the specifics of the Apache seem to resound more closely with the
description of the Horse clan in Gaz14.)

>Children of the Elk: Iroquoian & (eastern) Algonquian (Eastern Amerindians)

That's what I'd say, too.

>Children of the Bear: Shoshonean & (southern) Athapascan (Southwestern
>Amerindians)

Weren't the Shoshone a less sedentary, plains people? I think the Pueblo
Indians (Anasazi, or possibly Hopi/Zuni for a later era feel) are more
appropriately descriptive of the Bear clan than the Athabaskans or
Shoshone, at least as they are depicted in Gaz14.

Curious choices here. I'd be interested to hear more about how you depict
the Bear clan in your campaign.

>Children of the Turtle: Salishan (Northwestern Amerindians)

I tend to combine the above with the Chumash (Southern California Coastal
Amerindians), due to the complexity of the Chumash adaptation, and their
proximity to the Uto-Azcan Tiger clans (similar to the Hokan/Uto-Aztecan
proximity in the RW southwest).

>Children of the Viper: Aztec & Muskhogean (Meso-Amerindians and
>Southeastern Amerindians)

I'm not that familiar with the Muskhogean- they're more of an eastern
woodland people, right? I assume with some Mesoamerican influence? Are you
taking them as a Mississippian-like culture? That's an interesting take-
probably a bit more interesting than the traditional "Aztec".

I've always assumed they were more akin to the Hohokam, but I think I like
your idea... certainly the climate is more appropriate to your take than mine.

>I changed the map around a little bit. IMC the entire top of the plateau is
>the domain of the Children of the Horse, while the Children of the Bear
>live along the entire north and western walls of the plateau. The Children
>of the Elk now reside in the deep forests in the shadow of the plateau (to
>the south, which officially is kind of barren), while the Children of the
>Turtle have fewer lands deep into the forest, but now spread along the
>coast to Narwhal Cape.

IMC, I've done the exact same thing. Made a bit more sense to me (rather
than cramming so many people into that small area), and it certainly helps
explain how the Tiger/Viper clan can war occasionally with the Elk clan (as
the Gaz mentions at least once- virtually impossible if the Elk clan is
living atop the nearly two mile high plateau).

I've also tossed in the Children of (what I call) the Viper along with the
Turtle and Elk clans. The Viper and their mounds stay more to the north
near the plateau, while the Elk fill the middle towards the coast.

I'm curious- do you keep the plateau forests, or did you convert that to
plains territory? I've also toyed with adding some more "plateaus" atop the
plateau- like those around the lake- for some different texture, and to
provide for some of the Bison jumps that were the main means of hunting to
Plains Indians.

>The Children of the Viper have mostly the same territory, though they have
>lost a little to the Children of the Turtle and the Children of the Elk.
>This is not after a war or anything; it just made more sense to me as a
>starting point, otherwise much of the land "held" by the Children of
>the Horse would go unused.

I'm not sure which area you're talking about here- do you mean the northern
stretch near Lake Amsorak?

I've thought this area would be perfect for expansion by the Children of
the Bear- ground level dwellings- like Chaco Canyon in New Mexico.

>The section of land held by Darokin that lies between the Viper and Elk
>clans and the Arbandrine River is pretty much straight out of Conan (Read
>"Beyond the Black River"). Port Tenobar has a bit of a "penal colony" feel
>to it (never got touched on in GAZ 11 ya know) and Fort Nar and Fort Marny
>feel like settlements straight out of "The Last of the Mohicans" crossed
>with "Fort Tuscelan".

Sounds very interesting. I've always tried to play up the Tenobar region as
sort of a lawless, scoundrel ridden place- the dark counterpart to Athenos
across the bay. I actually set module X3 there, actually (modified,
naturally). The Borderlands of Darokin are sometimes ugly places... :)

I think I had at least one of those two forts actually garrisoned not by
Darokinian forces, but by the handpicked (and hired) mercenary troops of
the Magistrate of Tenobar himself... a vicious lot, to say the least. The
other fort I had manned by rotating troops from Fort Anselbury.

I've never read much Conan (any, actually). I might have to pick it up;
sounds interesting. (I'm starting to read more of the Sword and Sorcery
classics, ever since I got into Michael Moorcock a few years ago. I'm
starting in on Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser right now, but it's a
bit slow going...)

>BTW, in my version of Port Tenobar, the trade goods are changed: Weapons
>(+3), Armor (+2) and Grains (+1) now sell at more than market value and
>common furs (-3), rare furs (-1) and common wood (-2) now sell at less than
>market value.

Sounds appropriate enough. Does the Viper clan still use bronze age
weaponry in your campaign? Or have they upgraded to steel weaponry (stolen
or forged, either way)?

-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:39:19 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Michael III Mysteria <michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria
Subject:      Re: Modules for Sale-Commercial site
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dragontrove takes Credit Cards as well.

>Hit-Pointe and Titan-Games accept credit cards, and while other companies
>(like Sages Guild) seem to have more material available, I probably won't
pay >my bank for a check in US dollars, since the banks here charge large
amounts >of money for that sort of thing.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:57:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA]
              Atruaghin              ...
In-Reply-To:  <4f.c7583d.25c92efa@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> just how isolated their plateau really is.  Certainly prior to 1010 AC or so
> their contact with the rest of the world was very limited, and so they might
> well have remained at a primitive level of technology.  However, during the
> PWA era they were conquered by Alphatian mercenaries -- an event that
> would have changed their culture forever regardless of the final outcome.
>
> In fact, to leave the Atruaghin Plateau in the most interesting possible
> state, I would suggest that the Alphatians did indeed conquesr all of the
> tribes but that the tribes did not successfully revolt.

I prefer static settings myself, so haven't gone for WOTI and the PWAs -
still, this is intriguing.  If they were conquered, I too would prefer a
return to the age of outsider rule - it fits well with the cyclical nature
of so much of history.  It also would provide for far more campaign ideas.

- Mischa

Baseball is not a life-and-death matter, but the Red Sox are - Boston
Globe columnist Mike Barnicle

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:19:50 -0600
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was Re: [MYSTARA]Atruaghin
              adventures?)]
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96L.1000201202653.20606C-100000@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Mischa E Gelman wrote:

>
> I don't think the Atruaghin, except the Vipers, are meant as a comparison
> to the southern Mesoamerican cultures.  The Children of the Horse seem to
> be Plains Indians, the Children of the Bear some of the New Mexico/Arizona
> Indians and the Children of the Turtle I'm not quite sure - some Canadian
> groups?.
>
Pacific Northwest.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:54:08 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Alex Benson <Alex295@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics vs Magic
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In a message dated 1/31/00 2:56:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes:

<< >
 > no....i never said i was sick of quotes. i am sick and tired of
 everything
 > falling into the thy/alph comparisons. you cannot mention the two empires
 in
 > same message without the subject matter falling to the same old addages
 of
 > alph vs. thy.
 >
 Me? Go back and check over the thread, chummer - it wasn't I who turned it
 into a thread of Alph/Thy comparisons or turned it into the same old
 addages of Alph vs Thy: that came up before I got involved.
 Yes, no one likes being contradicted, but please don't try to imply that
 this thread becoming "Alph vs Thy" was at my instigation. . . . >>

my part in this thread came on 1/16/00 with simple non-nationally oriented
remarks on mass combat in regards to D&D: heroes on the battlefield, magic in
seige warfare, magic in open battles, maneuver, and my own preference for PCs
to stay out of war battles and leave them to the regular armies.

on 1/17/00 i responded to Rob's portrayal of alph and thy troop uses and
tactics in his campaign version of Wrath. i disagreed with his portrayal of
alph troops....but recognized the individuality he used in his own campaign.

soon afterwards you jumped into the discussion and it it quickly turned to
alph vs. thy, everyone loves alph, alph gains at thy's expense, postwrath
images of alph, and so on and so on and so on. now i am not pointing any
fingers...but i am not the one that brought alph and thy into this thread,
nor did i take it to the extent of the most recent messages by expanding the
thread in all manner of directions. most of my response messages have a good
degree of snips. likewise....my motivations for expernding the time and
effort to carry it on to such extents is compromised by my limited amount of
free-time and "THE HAND" which necessitates typing with my left hand only.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:54:13 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Alex Benson <Alex295@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics v Magic
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In a message dated 1/31/00 3:06:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes:

<< Another correction:

 > as far as personel, i'd agree that the alph fleet probably does outnumber
 the
 > RAF.
 >
 You're agreeing with yourself, then, because no where did I claim to
 support your proposition of the RAF being essentially ineffectual in the
 face of the Alph skyship fleet or outnumbered - please check my statement;
 I was alluding to your prior claims, not making a statement about my
 possition.>>

well first, the above was a response to claims that i said that the alph air
arm was bigger than the thy air fleet. i never said that is was.....at least
in the regards of there being one or more skyships for every thy RAF
rider/mount combo. however, since skyships require sizable numbers of
crewmen, boltmen, artillerists, etc. they have a higher deployed number of
personel. i don't know the exact numbers of each empire's air fleet. however
i do know that a alph man-of-war has more personel aboard it than thy RAF
contingent station in thycity per DotE.

as for the "agreeing with myself" portion, it was a stemming response from
the message i was responding to. i was disagreeing with the premise that i
supposedly said that there was a numerical superiority in skyships over RAF
rider/mount numbers. i was agreeing that if personel numbers was the intended
factors, then i agreed that i did say that alph had that superiority in
numbers.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:54:25 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Alex Benson <Alex295@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics v Magic
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In a message dated 1/31/00 3:54:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

 > the mage troop reference is an assumption and confused with the boltmen
 > examples. a mage troop is still a low level mage (m1 or m2) and only has a
 > couple spells in his quiver. so obviously he cannot take out 5 to 10
 > opponents with his spells. contrarily a boltman can IF he can unleash his
 > wand's charges (which are 20 btw) before the enemy closes upon him.
 there's
 > nothing revolutionary about the way the boltmen would be protected by
 regular
 > infantry. and i also pointed out that with the boltmen's limited range
 they
 > would have to be a component of a ranged weapon umbrella. also of note are
 > the specialized boltmen that are part of a boltmen unit that are equipped
 > with wands with heavier offensive spells and protective spells (prot. from
 > norm missiles, dispel). also their AC aren't that bad....AC8 to AC4
 depending
 > on rank.

 Where does this info come from? I've looked hard for sources on Alphatian
 military but have found no pre-wrath data in anything resembling War Engine
 rules. >>

boltmen stats are found in Champions of Mystara: Heroes of the Princess Ark
book.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:12:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Falkenberg?= <Falkenberg@ROCKETMAIL.COM>
Subject:      List Comments
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I am new to the list (a couple of days, though I was previously lurking
at an earlier time) and I just thought I'd share a couple of
observations.

1.  Messages seem to be exceedingly long.  I subscribe to the digest
format and it takes me forever to get through everything.  This would
be wonderful if there were original content in each message but almost
all of the messages seem to snip an extraordinary amount from the
previous thread.  I don't want to be critical but this is a waste of
everyone's time.
2.  Is there always this much bickering on the list?  I dropped the
list the first time I was on it due to the incessant arguing back and
forth.  I generally lurk on lists and soak up the ambiance for a time
but this drives me crazy!

I am a fan of Mystara and would love to contribute to this forum but I
may not stick around that long.  I hope this doesn't offend anyone on
the list as this is not my intent.  I will just assume that I have
overstepped polite boundaries and from this point on will mind my own
business!

Regards,

Tim Falkenberg af Trystorp


=====




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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:29:32 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Falkenberg?= <Falkenberg@ROCKETMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Byzantine-Thyatian dominions
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I am in the process of taking over a campaign wherein the characters
are currently in Thyatis.  I have chosen to base my Thyatis on James
Ruhland's Byzantine Thyatis.  My problem:  The characters have just
been granted domains by the Emperor after doing him a great favor.  In
my understanding, there are no hereditary fiefs in this Thyatis.  If I
were to simply appoint the characters as Cleisarchs I fear the players
would be fairly disappointed as they have been greatly looking forward
to the time when they would have their own dominions.

My inclination is to have them appointed for a fairly lengthy period of
time after which their leadership will be evaluated by the senate.
Their appointments will not be hereditary but could be extended
multiple times.

I have chosen the location as the Shadow Coast (Septentriona) as
material (I don't remember if it is official material or not) states
that this area was kept as Imperial Territory to be carved up as
rewards to heroes who have done the Emperor favors.  My campaign is
currently set in the year 1000.  My heroes (approaching level 9) are
the heroes who have stopped the attempt on Thincol's life by Alphatian
assassins (actually they have restored him to life after a successful
attempt - an amazing incident in a world where I have eliminated
resurrection spells - the result of a long nebulous quest where the
characters really had no idea of the outcome or what they were doing!)

Does anyone else have any solutions to the problem of
Byzantine-Thyatian dominions?  Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Tim Falkenberg af Trystorp

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:42:42 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: List Comments
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On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:12:42 -0800 =?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Falkenberg?=
<Falkenberg@ROCKETMAIL.COM> writes:

> 1.  Messages seem to be exceedingly long.  I subscribe to the digest
> format and it takes me forever to get through everything.  This would
> be wonderful if there were original content in each message but
> almost
> all of the messages seem to snip an extraordinary amount from the
> previous thread.  I don't want to be critical but this is a waste of
> everyone's time.

Actually what you mean is _not_ snipping most of a thread.  Haven't
noticed too much of that right now.

> 2.  Is there always this much bickering on the list?  I dropped the
> list the first time I was on it due to the incessant arguing back and
> forth.  I generally lurk on lists and soak up the ambiance for a time
> but this drives me crazy!

Bickering?  What bickering?  Now, L5RInfo has bickering.  This list is
just a bunch of nice, friendly folks.  :)
Actually, the list hasa been pretty quiet lately.  Or maybe it just seems
that way, buried in my inbox under tons of bickering posts from
L5RInfo.... :)

> I am a fan of Mystara and would love to contribute to this forum but
> I
> may not stick around that long.

Trust me, it's worth it.  I've been a member for a couple years now, and
I haven't regreted a minute of it.  (Well, maybe the time we went
straight from a full-fledged canon debate to a the Ethie vs. Glantri
thread.)


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:39:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics vs Magic
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>
> soon afterwards you jumped into the discussion and it it quickly turned
to
> alph vs. thy,
>
Again, a mischaracterisation, as anyone who checks the actual thread will
note.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:44:00 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Dragon mag Annual #1
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi there!

Sorry for the OT post, but are there any of you interested in Dragon Annual
#1 for $6.20 including S&H within US?

Please reply to me privately!
First come, first served.


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html

Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:47:11 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tactics vs Magic
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>
> on 1/17/00 i responded to Rob's portrayal of alph and thy troop uses and
> tactics in his campaign version of Wrath. i disagreed with his portrayal
of
> alph troops....but recognized the individuality he used in his own
campaign.
>
> soon afterwards you jumped into the discussion and it it quickly turned
to
> alph vs. thy,
>
Please do not complain of threads turning to "Alph vs Thy" discussions when
in truth you were the one who felt the need to step in, not in the interest
of a general discussion of "Tactics vs Magic", but when you felt "your"
Empire was being wrongly portrayed by Rob. And then there were several
exchanges on that topic before I ever stepped in and made a post on it.
Check the record.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:57:06 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Byzantine-Thyatian dominions
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>
> My inclination is to have them appointed for a fairly lengthy period of
> time after which their leadership will be evaluated by the senate.
> Their appointments will not be hereditary but could be extended
> multiple times.
>
Well, here's the other thing I'd recomend: the positions/titles wouldn't be
hereditary. BUT they might recieve a grant of land from the Emperor as an
estate, as well (from lands owned by the Emperor, rather than the Empire -
in other words, property rather than a fief). This would be more or less
just like owning regular land - and this they'd own until they wanted to
sell it, or whatnot. They could develop its resources along side with
fulfilling their obligations as Imperial officials (in fact, this is what
many IRL Byzantine officials did), get income from it in the form of rents
from folks they encourage to settle it, and the like.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:08:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: T vs M: Appology
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I want to appologize to the list for my last two posts - I regret them
because such bickering is something I wanted to avoid this time around.
Seems I wasn't successful in taking that to heart. I should have just let
matters lay where they were after Alex's last couple posts.

I'm sorry for the intrusion of such remarks, they aren't germain to the
list, and I'll try and do better to make sure not to engage in such
a responses in the future. My sincere appologies.

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:49:34 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Magister Mystaros <Mystaros@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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In a message dated 2/2/00 2:34:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jsmill@WANS.NET writes:

<< Children of the Horse: Siouan (Northern Plains Amerindians)

 Siouans? Wouldn't the Apache be more closely matched (Athabaskans, to be
 sure, but the specifics of the Apache seem to resound more closely with the
 description of the Horse clan in Gaz14.)>>

To an extent, yes, but I modified the culture to be a more distinctly nomadic
rather than semi-nomadic as outlined in the GAZ. To be fair, the Horse Tribe
IMC is more similar to the "mythic" Sioux than to the "historical" Sioux...

 << >Children of the Bear: Shoshonean & (southern) Athapascan (Southwestern
 >Amerindians)

 Weren't the Shoshone a less sedentary, plains people? I think the Pueblo
 Indians (Anasazi, or possibly Hopi/Zuni for a later era feel) are more
 appropriately descriptive of the Bear clan than the Athabaskans or
 Shoshone, at least as they are depicted in Gaz14.

 Curious choices here. I'd be interested to hear more about how you depict
 the Bear clan in your campaign.>>

D'oh! Yeah, I meant Pueblo, though they also have a less-sedentary aspect to
them since they also control the lands below the plateau bordering Sind and
Darokin. They also have some Apache characteristics (thus the Athabaskan
traits... again, like above, seen more through myths rather than the
historical reality). They are more "original" than the other tribes IMC, in
that they are a mix of several RW tribal "types" and also have been more
influenced by Daro and Sindhi cultures...

<< >Children of the Viper: Aztec & Muskhogean (Meso-Amerindians and
 >Southeastern Amerindians)

 I'm not that familiar with the Muskhogean- they're more of an eastern
 woodland people, right? I assume with some Mesoamerican influence? Are you
 taking them as a Mississippian-like culture? That's an interesting take-
 probably a bit more interesting than the traditional "Aztec".>>

The Muskhogean group included the Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks and Seminoles,
and originally resided in the southeast (especially the gulf region). The
Creeks and the Chickasaw used mounds (may or may not have built them). The
Viper Tribe is a mix of their traditions and that of the Aztecs; the Azcans
are the Aztecs of Mystara, so I used a non-Aztec influence to differentiate
them.

<< I'm curious- do you keep the plateau forests, or did you convert that to
 plains territory? I've also toyed with adding some more "plateaus" atop the
 plateau- like those around the lake- for some different texture, and to
 provide for some of the Bison jumps that were the main means of hunting to
 Plains Indians.>>

The plateau is almost entirely plains IMC, though there are forested regions
near the various rivers... I also did away with the big lakes and added some
badlands. The plateau edge IMC is rough to the north and west, with lots of
large shelves for settlements of the Bear Tribe, and more vertical to the
south and east.

 <<>otherwise much of the land "held" by the Children of the Horse would go
unused.

 I'm not sure which area you're talking about here- do you mean the northern
 stretch near Lake Amsorak?>>

The entire region off the plateau "held" by the Atruaghin Tribes from the
Falcon Tribe village west and from the southernmost "Summer Camp" west is
ostensibly under the control of the Horse tribe... yet there's no way for
them to get down there to control it! Thus, I expanded the Bear Tribe to
include the plateau cliffside and the lands underneath along the entire
expanse of the plateau's north and western faces, bordering Darokin and Sind.

 <<I've thought this area would be perfect for expansion by the Children of
 the Bear- ground level dwellings- like Chaco Canyon in New Mexico.>>

Exactly.

<< I've never read much Conan (any, actually). I might have to pick it up;
 sounds interesting. (I'm starting to read more of the Sword and Sorcery
 classics, ever since I got into Michael Moorcock a few years ago. I'm
 starting in on Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser right now, but it's a
 bit slow going...)>>

Definitely pick up Conan! Read the original stuff by Howard as edited and
expanded by Carter, DeCamp and Nyborg; don't read any of the more recent
stuff by other authors until after, as most of it isn't really worth reading
(IMO). Lieber's Lankhmar is actually a good example for what could be done
with, say, "West Portage" on the Isle of Dawn...

 <<Sounds appropriate enough. Does the Viper clan still use bronze age
 weaponry in your campaign? Or have they upgraded to steel weaponry (stolen
 or forged, either way)? >>

The Viper tribe is able to manufacture primitive bronze weapons and shields;
however, all the tribes are able to use "acquired" metal weapons. However,
IMC their religion forbids them from using anything other than stone unless
their opponents are also similarly armed... and there is far less honor
gained in defeating a foe with a metal weapon. Metal armor is right out in
any case...

James A. Mishler
Magister Mystaros
Check out my website:
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:46:03 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Formation fighting
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I've had this file kicking around my hard drive for some time now - given
all the recent talk about tactics in mass battles, perhaps its an
appropriate time to wheel it out.  I would appreciate any comments or maybe
new formations (I use this stuff quite a lot when I run - I'm partial to
Milenian hoplites, Thyatian legionaries and Bellaynish arquebusiers for some
reason :)


Formation Fighting

The Pike Wall
 Units of pikemen make formidable opponents, when holding a position.
 Due to the length of the pikes the formation may have a fighting front rank
of up to 3 men deep.  Upto 3 men in any layer may melee a given target.
Thus, at it�s most compact, a pike formation could deploy 3x3=9 pike heads
against a foe.
 Melee attackers roll reversed initiative (highest roll wins).  The attacker
can only close a rank if he
 a) beats the pikemen in an initiative roll
 b) chops the heads of all the pikes meleeing him (pike heads have AC 2, and
typically save as thin wood - only slashing weapons may be used against
these)
 c) all the pikemen miss their attacks for that round.
Note that a warrior may have to close up to 3 ranks in the tightest
formations to close with the tightest possible pike wall, making a charge by
all but the most heavily armoured troops practical suicide.

 Once one of the above conditions are fulfilled the attacker may close to
conventional melee with the first rank of pikemen.  Note that even now the
rank of pikemen directly behind the foremost rank may still melee (thus in
close a foe would face the man closed, plus upto three pike heads from the
rank behind them).
 Pikemen are less effective when advancing.  Advancing pikemen may only
attack with the first two ranks, rather than three, and the opponent
automatically closes with the pikemen after the first round.
 Also, the men in a pike formation are tightly packed and, without shields,
vulnerable to missile fire.  A fireball spell thrown into a 3 deep formation
of pikemen will typically hit between 20 and 30 soldiers.  Missile attacks
gain a +1 bonus to hit the wall of troops.

Pike walls are often combined with support troops wielding heavy crossbows,
or on the Savage Coast arquebusiers (Pike and shot warfare).   The hail of
missiles in used in conjunction with a solid wall of pikes can be
particularly lethal.


Phalanx

Units in a phalanx must be armed with shield and a short stabbing weapon,
typically a spear or shortsword.

 Units in a phalanx overlap their shields, providing increased protection.
A man with one flanking companion gains a -2 AC bonus, one with friends on
both sides gains a -4 bonus.  This adjustment counts against both missile
and melee fire, as long as the formation is intact.
 Phalanxes typically charge opponents, and gain bonuses when doing so.
Every additional man deep the formation is gives the front rank an
additional +1 to hit, upto a maximum of +4.  If in a given round a frontline
warrior is downed, the man directly behind him may gain an immediate free
attack.  Thus the depth of the formation is crucial to success - the deeper
formation will typically win an engagement.
 A phalanx is more tightly knit than a pike formation.  Movement rate is
reduced to 10% of maximum - for every week of training this penalty is
reduced by 5%, until after 18 weeks the formation can move at maximum rate
while in formation.
 Phalanxes cannot easily be held in rough terrain - a phalanx moving over
boulder strewn, uneven, or steeply sloping terrain must roll d20 for every
round of movement - a roll greater than the number of weeks trained indicate
that the formation has come apart.
 Phalanxes may not move at all in forested terrain.  In light forests a
phalanx may hold a defensive position, but to move the warriors must break
formation.
 Units flanking a charging or engaged phalanx negate all the phalanxes
bonus.  A flanked phalanx is in danger of coming apart - for every 5% of the
force killed, roll a d20 - a roll greater than the number of weeks trained
indicate that the formation has come apart.
 Thus, phalanx fights are a matter of strategy - does one have a deep and
therefore powerful phalanx, or does one have a thinner phalanx to gain a
long front line in an effort to flank and surround his opponent?
 Phalanxes are vulnerable to artillery fire (ballistae etc.).  Due to the
compact formation large missiles can cut a swathe of destruction through the
tightly packed soldiers.  When a siege engine rolls to hit against a victim,
roll as if it has a ROF of 3 - ie each missile may strike upto 3 targets,
instead if one.
 A phalanx requires a minimum of 10 men to be effective as a formation.

Tortoise

A purely defensive formation, troops employing the tortoise must use large
shields - (body shields in AD&D parlance).  Overlapping the shields, both at
the edges of the formation, and also above it by those in the centre raising
their shields above their heads, provides the equivalent of 90% cover from
missile fire.  This grants substantial armour class bonuses, and even
resistance to certain attacks (such as fireball - 90% cover grants a +4
bonus to saving throws, a successful save indicating no damage is taken,
while a failed save still reduces damage to one half).  Certain attacks -
catapult boulders and so on - which project significant force may be able to
penetrate the tortoises defences without penalty.  Some attacks like
cloudkill would obviously be unaffected by such defences.
Forming an effective tortoise is quite difficult, requiring a d20 roll equal
to or under the number of weeks the unit has trained.  Tortoises are even
slower than phalanxes, moving at a speed of 4.  A tortoise formation may
revert to a more conventional phalanx at any time - this is typically done
just before the unit enters melee.


Skirmishers
 Skirmishers are spread out.  This formation is comparatively weak -
skirmishers gain no combat bonuses.  Skirmishers are fast, though, and less
vulnerable to missiles and magic than tightly packed pikemen and phalanxes.
 Skirmishers move at full speed.  Being spread out (typically one man per
twenty yards) area of effect magicks are virtually useless (a fireball would
strike at most 3 targets, and the DM should recognise the difficulty of
placing a fireball at precisely the right point in a line which is charging
towards the caster...).  Reforming skirmishers into a tightly controlled
unit for melee is difficult, requiring a d20 roll under the number of weeks
trained.
A tactic used by some nations is the concept of skirmishers armed with
crossbows, or in the Savage Coast, arquebuses.  Skirmishers armed with such
weapons use the tactic now time honoured in the real world - advancing by
squads.  One unit rushed forward a short distance, a few tens of yards,
while another unit hangs back and provides cover with their weapons.   Then
the first unit that advanced holds and covers, while the previously
stationary unit rushes forward, and so on.  The advantage is that half of
the force has weapons cocked at all times.  In game terms, targets of
opportunity who break from cover are subject to fire from the unit
covering - and their weapons have a weapon speed reduced to 1 to reflect
their readiness and preparation.  Troops that are specialised in their
ranged weapons may automatically win the initiative in certain situations.


The nonweapon proficiency of Formation Fighting is required by all soldiers
participating in all of the above.  Needless to say, soldiers of those
nations which hold formation fighting dear to their hearts (Thyatis and
Darokin immediately spring to mind) will receive the proficiency during
their army training (I would suggest granting this proficiency for free for
those using the Myrmidon kit who are enlisted in an appropriate army).


Cheers

Rob

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:54:01 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Formation fighting
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I've been looking for this for a long time, because on of the guys in my
gaming group is hyper about combat and tactics stuffs, and this is what i was
looking for.  thanks!

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:06:22 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: List Comments
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--

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:12:42    Tim Falkenberg wrote:
(snip)
>1.  Messages seem to be exceedingly long.  I subscribe to the digest
>format and it takes me forever to get through everything.  This would
>be wonderful if there were original content in each message but almost
>all of the messages seem to snip an extraordinary amount from the
>previous thread.  I don't want to be critical but this is a waste of
>everyone's time.

Hmm. I never saw it that way. People need to quote what they're replying to, but they are much better at it here than on DND-L which I also subscribe to.


>2.  Is there always this much bickering on the list?  I dropped the
>list the first time I was on it due to the incessant arguing back and
>forth.  I generally lurk on lists and soak up the ambiance for a time
>but this drives me crazy!

Really?? I'm surprised, because I think this list is extremely friendly and civil - oh sure, people argue, but that's what the list is there for, and it's often rather enlightening and sometimes even productive IMHO, though naturally not always.
    One word of advice though, if you think there is much bickering on this list *DON'T* go to DND-L !

>
>I am a fan of Mystara and would love to contribute to this forum but I
>may not stick around that long.  I hope this doesn't offend anyone on
>the list as this is not my intent.  I will just assume that I have
>overstepped polite boundaries and from this point on will mind my own
>business!

Well, I started around the end of November, and lurked around for a while before I posted anything, and I've had a great amount of useful discussions and exchange of ideas and material since then - there are a lot of nice people on this list, trust me!


  - The Stalker of Alphatia



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:11:26 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: List Comments
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i try to contribute as many helpful and polite comments as possible, I never
EVER copy/paste quotes from previous messages, and the only time I lash out
is when someone strikes a chord in an area that i'm passionate about, like
saying that elves are dumb or something (that could get you a whooping).

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:39:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
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> almost all of the messages seem to snip an extraordinary
> amount from the previous thread.  I don't want to be
> critical but this is a waste of everyone's time.

On the converse side, some messages don't quote at all.
That's when I start losing where I am in the conversation :)

> 2.  Is there always this much bickering on the list?

I would never call it bickering. Mystara is a world where
things have always been contradictory and ill-defined.
Therefore, everyone pretty much has their own opinions and
ideas, which in general is a good thing. However, since
there can only be one "official" Mystara, lots of list
members, myself included, get over-spirited about our own
interpretations and ideas.

At least it's not as bad as some other lists get.

Ethan

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:46:21 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
In-Reply-To:  <b1.1759d4b.25c9086c@aol.com>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote:

>  Oh, adventure ideas would be helpful.
>
Do you know yet what the PCs will be?  The kinds of adventures you build
will be very dependent on whether they are True Believers or Foreigners.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:52:58 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.20000201234023.007be770@pop.wans.net>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote:

> At 09:39 PM 2/1/00 EST, you wrote:
> >
> >These are the RW comparisons for the Atruaghin tribes that I use:
> >
> >Children of the Horse: Siouan (Northern Plains Amerindians)
>
> Siouans? Wouldn't the Apache be more closely matched (Athabaskans, to be
> sure, but the specifics of the Apache seem to resound more closely with the
> description of the Horse clan in Gaz14.)
>
Sioux controlled a combination of forested land with rivers and grasslands
to the west of it, then were pushed out of first the forest, then the
grasslands.

I'd always thought the Apache were incredibly pragmatic about weaponry,
unlike Children of the Horse, due to having to fight the Spanish, then the
Mexicans, then the Americans for so long.  But I may be misremembering.

> >Children of the Bear: Shoshonean & (southern) Athapascan (Southwestern
> >Amerindians)
>
> Weren't the Shoshone a less sedentary, plains people? I think the Pueblo
> Indians (Anasazi, or possibly Hopi/Zuni for a later era feel) are more
> appropriately descriptive of the Bear clan than the Athabaskans or
> Shoshone, at least as they are depicted in Gaz14.
>
I'd see them as Hopi, Pueblo, and Navajo myself.  I'd give them
domesticated animals as well, since those hills would be good for herding.
(So far as I can tell, the only tribe that has herds would be the Children
of the Viper)




John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:56:23 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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In a message dated 2000-02-02 7:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Mystaros@AOL.COM writes:

<< The Viper tribe is able to manufacture primitive bronze weapons and
shields;
 however, all the tribes are able to use "acquired" metal weapons. However,
 IMC their religion forbids them from using anything other than stone unless
 their opponents are also similarly armed... and there is far less honor
 gained in defeating a foe with a metal weapon. Metal armor is right out in
 any case...  >>

Of course, from what I read in Gaz 14 about the Viper/Tiger tribe they freely
use metal weapons (tipped with poison) and wear metal breastplates and
carry metal shields -- both finely polished so as to reflect the sun directly
into the eyes of their foes.  Add in guerilla tactics of shooting at intruders
(with poisoned arrows) from the forests and you have a tribe well capable
of holding off more "civilized" armies.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:18:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Kevin Powers <kjp@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
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Without question, use the Desert Of Desolation series from AD&D-First.
Excellent Ylaruam-adaptable modules.  Well worth the looking-for.

>
> >  Oh, adventure ideas would be helpful.
> >
> Do you know yet what the PCs will be?  The kinds of adventures you build
> will be very dependent on whether they are True Believers or Foreigners.
>

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Date:         Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:45:55 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      About sind and it's vegetation..
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What do you think is the main vegetation of the asanda valley in
Sind.What kind of trees can we found there?oaks and temperate trees or
more tropical ones?

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:49:57 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      sind vegetation
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I would thing that the vegetation of Sind would be simular to the Jordan =
river valley in Isreal and Jordan.

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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I would thing that the vegetation of =
Sind would=20
be simular to the Jordan river valley in Isreal and=20
Jordan.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:03:39 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <tsarlat@PICASSO.ETU.MONTAIGNE.U-BORDEAUX.FR>
Subject:      Re: sind vegetation
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thanks but what do you mean?
walnut trees? bamboos?what kind of species?

Neal a �crit :

>  I would thing that the vegetation of Sind would be simular to the
> Jordan river valley in Isreal and Jordan.

--
Thibault Sarlat.
ICQ 16622177.
homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Join me at: mystara@com.bi  or at
tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:53:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Jenn <valerya1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Call for Submissions
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This is the "official" call for submissions for Tome
of Mystara #3.

Deadline is 1 March, 2000. Please send submissions as
text in the body of your email either to
mystaratome@yahoo.com or directly to me at
valerya@webtv.net. We will confirm receipt.

Inquiries regarding potential submissions are welcome;
for faster response, please direct them to my private
email, above.

Please also see our submissions guidelines page at
http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/

Thanks - we hope to hear from you!


Jennifer Favia Guerra
Editor, Tome of Mystara

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:46:51 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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I do think there can be a little more of "in my campaign," "It always seemed to me" and the time honored "IMHO" [or not so HO as the case ofter is.

Just helps to take the edge off. And we could, it seems to me, move some of the back and forth "You said then I said" posting to private e-mail and make those computer wonks who love to keep track of e-traffic happy.

Course, thats just my opinion, I could be full of it.

BoBo II

"Be certain what you do, sir, lest your justice
Prove violence,"

Winters Tale II,i

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:59:59 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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Great stuff!

Im always in favor of options to reflect tactics in DnD combat. Give the fighters as many choices as a MU has spells. Check out the old Dragon magazine, those who have the CD, for an article that has offensive and defensive options for fighters that is simple enough to allow quick, non-math major adjustments to Hit/Dam. and AC. Anyone out there have the reference for this? I currently use a copy/pasted version from the days when TSR put old dragon on the website in my PBEM campaign going through the X series.

Makes me want to break out the Milenean Empire materials again.  Anyone looking for more on Thyatis should try to get a hold of this HW material as it shows some of where Thyatis came from and is just a fun place for mythic greece inspired campaigning.

Along those lines "Gates of Fire" is a great novel, now out in papaerback, which describes life in Sparta leading up to the Battle of Thermopoli (sp?) and the Persian Wars.  Which might also serve as some inspirational material for those looking to put some flavor in the Thy. vs Alph. conflict.

BoBo II

Last of the Dorfins

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:08:05 EST
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Since it is so heavily influenced by RW Indus culture, I would find out what grows along that river at an Indian website, etc. Also, you can use the Thar desert in Pakistan and materials on that region for The Great Waste and let the Hidu-Kush, with its rich history stand in for the Black Mountains.

IM current PBEM, the Desert Nomads, those unwitting pawns of the Master, are based heavily on the Taliban,Muhajadin, and the current fighting in Peshmir and Chechnya.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:33:18 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <cthulhudrew@USA.NET>
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Almanac 1016 survey]
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DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT> wrote:
>
>So please, let us know on this forum at least one positive and one >nega=
tive
comment about the almanac, that's to say tell us what you liked >most and=
 what
you disliked, and what you'd like to see. This way we'll >try to improve =
it
for next year! :)

I loved it. I especially liked the in-depth looks at the Old World nation=
s in
the geographic entries. It wasn't just a rehash of the same old informati=
on
we've gotten over the past several almanacs, and provided some additional=

flavor to the national entries. I can't wait for that Glantrian correspon=
dent-
Brewford Hempster's- description for 1017? Where will he go next?

On the other hand, I felt that some of the Old World nations didn't get a=
s
much attention as others in the Events section. Sure, Ethengar, Rockhome,=

Glantri, Thyatis, and Heldann had a ton of information, but what about
Darokin? Or Karameikos? Or the Shires or Ylaruam? What about the Northern=

Reaches nations? Maybe you can do something about this for next year's
almanac... that was a little disappointing. I don't know- maybe you guys =
ran
out of time, or something, but if you get cracking earlier this year, you=

might not run into that problem... =


Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
(Tongue very slightly in cheek) :)

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:36:39 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Arachnophobia
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I was idly surfing at work today (as you do) when I happened across the
Aranea Traits by John Hare from waaay back in 1998.  I was dead impressed,
impressed enough to immediately set to expanding and clarifying the rules
for them :)

(PS - I do not vouch for the real world accuracy of any of these spider
types and abilities!)


Wolf Spider
    Gains the benefit of the nonweapon proficiencies of Hunting and Tracking
(as a ranger) while in spider form.  However, wolf spiders cannot webcast
like other araneas can.  They still can still spin ropes of silk, but do not
create webs and cannot use them as a weapon.

Money Spider
    A smaller than average aranea - money spiders are usually thieves.  They
move at speed 21 instead of 18 as is typical when in spider form, and gain a
+20% bonus to hide in shadows and move silently percentages.  However, money
spiders suffer a -1 penalty to hit rolls when involved in melee due to their
smaller stature.

Orb Spider
    These araneas spin large webs, which they can use to detect nearby
creatures via vibration.  An aranea in contact with his web gains an ability
similar to Detect Noise, with a 10% chance of success per level of aranea
(minimum 30%).  Orb spiders cannot run as fast as most other araneas, with a
movement rate of only 15.

Wasp Spider
    These araneas are particularly adept at immobilising their victims with
webs, gaining a +2 bonus to hit when webcasting.  Wasp spider aranea disdain
the use of other ranged weapons, however, and cannot take a proficiency in
any other form of ranged weapon.

Water Spider
    Water spiders can effectively "breathe" underwater for three rounds for
every Constitution point they possess, as spines on their body effectively
trap a skin of air around them when they dive.  They also build "diving
bells" out of silk which they live in underwater, periodically topping them
up with air by returning to the surface.  Water spiders automatically gain
the swimming proficiency, but similar to wolf spiders cannot use webcasting
in combat - webcasting being unsuitable for underwater combat.

Spitting spider
    Spitting spiders can spit a strand of web at their foes, which in
addition to having the same effect as a normal webcasting attack carries a
contact poison equivalent to that of a normal aranea bite (ie save versus
poison or take 1d4 damage a round for 1d4 rounds.  Spitting spiders are
somewhat slower than normal aranea however, suffering a -2 penalty to their
initiative rolls.

Trapdoor spider
    Trapdoor spiders prefer to lie in wait and ambush their foes.  When
attacking from a concealed position victims of a trapdoor spider suffer a -4
penalty to their surprise rolls in a manner similar to elves.  Trapdoor
spider aranea dislike wide open spaces however, where they feel exposed,
suffering a -1 penalty to their saving throws due to agoraphobia.

Crab spider
    Crab spiders are more agile than most, moving at speed 21 instead of the
usual 18.  They also gain a -1 initiative bonus because of their speed.
However, they tend to act before they think quite often, and so when a crab
spider aranea takes a course of action, he carries it out without hesitation
or stopping to think of the consequences (like that Planescape factol, I
forget which one...)

Funnel spider
    All aranea are happy enough operating during the night, but funnel
spiders have particularly nocturnal habits.  Funnel spider infravision
extends 120' rather than the usual 60', but they suffer a -1 penalty to
their hit rolls and lose all Dexterity bonuses when in bright light
(continual light spells or broad daylight).

Jumping spider
    Jumping spiders gain a special Jump attack, similar to the 1st level
spell, Jump - either 30 feet straight forward or upwards.  Jumping spiders
cannot use the webcasting ability used by other araneas however.  A jumping
spider can jump no more than once every three rounds.  Jumping spiders enjoy
360' vision.

Bird eating spider
    Very different in nature from the usual aranea.  Bird eating spiders use
different stat adjustments than normal - +1 strength, +1 constitution, -1
charisma, -1 wisdom.

Mangora spider
    These beautiful spiders have delicate velvety fur, and produce
exceptional quality silk.  Mangoras form the ambassadors of the aranea race,
and are most comfortable with other races.  Mangoras gain the acting
proficiency for free, and their silk is worth twice the market value of
lesser quality silks.  While mangora spider skin is better looking than
other araneas, it is not as tough.  Mangoras have a natural armour class of
9, instead of the 7 enjoyed by most other araneas.

Widow spider
    These aranea have more potent venom then their comrades.  Aranea widow
bites inflict d6 damage over d6 rounds to those who fail their saves.  Widow
spiders are reclusive however, suffering a -1 penalty to their charisma
scores.

Flat spider
    These aranea are much, much faster when running than their kin.  Flat
spiders move at speed 24.  However, their fangs are smaller than other
spiders, inflicting only 1 point of damage, and their poison weaker -
victims save against it with a +4 bonus.  Flat spiders cannot use webcasting
in combat either.

Fishing spider
    Fishing spiders can run across water without sinking if they make a
successful Dexterity check.  They must make a check each round, or they
sink.  It is advisable for fishing spiders to learn how to swim...

Bolas spider
    Bolas spiders use pheromones to lure their victims close to them.
Araneas of this breed can attempt to charm a  single insectoid creature once
per day, this has the same effect as a Hypnotism spell.  The same trick can
be tried on humans and humanoids, but they gain a +3 bonus to their saving
throws.
    Bolas spiders are also particularly adept webcasters, gaining a +1 bonus
to their hit rolls.
    However, they suffer in melee combat, with a -2 penalty to hit rolls
when fighting in melee.

Cross spider
    The commonest aranea type around, cross spiders make up the bulk of
aranea population.  Cross spiders are the default aranea type, gaining no
special hindrances or bonuses.




Spider silk
    Aranea put their silk to an amazing array of uses.  Some of them are
given below...
        - drag lines, helping a clumsy aranea who has the misfortune to fall
from a great height.
        - wrapping up food
        - wrapping up themselves (silk clothes)
        - ballooning (flight - sort of.)
        - carrying messages to other aranea via vibrations in their webs
(thrumming)
        - bungee cord
        - diving bells for water spiders
        - fishing rods for fishing spiders
        - trapdoors for trapdoor spiders

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:47:40 -0000
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>Great stuff!
>
>Im always in favor of options to reflect tactics in DnD combat. Give the
fighters as many choices as a MU has spells. Check out the old Dragon
magazine, those who have the CD, for an article that has offensive and
defensive options for fighters that is simple enough to allow quick,
non-math major adjustments to Hit/Dam. and AC. Anyone out there have the
reference for this? I currently use a copy/pasted version from the days when
TSR put old dragon on the website in my PBEM campaign going through the X
series.


Mm, I've never heard of them.  Any chance of sharing your version?


>Along those lines "Gates of Fire" is a great novel, now out in papaerback,
which describes life in Sparta leading up to the Battle of Thermopoli (sp?)
and the Persian Wars.  Which might also serve as some inspirational material
for those looking to put some flavor in the Thy. vs Alph. conflict.


Never read that one, but I have read David Gemmels's Macedon series, which
covers the same time period - though with fantasy overtones.

The Battle of the Crocus Field against Onomarchus, that sort of thing.
Great stuff.

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:55:16 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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Organization: HotBot Mail  (http://mail.hotbot.com:80)
Subject:      Re: [[MYSTARA] Atraughin culture (was
              Re:[MYSTARA]Atruaghinadventures?)]
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I would not use this idea exactly, but I must
say I really really like it.  It mixes mythologial monster with a native-american tribal culture. Really a creative combination.  Nice.

--

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:56:50    Andrew Theisen wrote:
>At 02:44 PM 2/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>Alternatively, an inventive GM with some historical knowledge of Meso-
>>Native and American-Natives could add some tribes which are allied against
>>the Vipers.  Personally I think that this idea could create the utopian
>>balance (as found in other areas), making things...well...boring.  Maybe a
>>combination of both has the best results.
>
>Funny you mention that. I actually started to do that some time ago, with a
>clan I called the "Viper" clan- in this case, the "real" Viper clan-
>outside scholars mixed up the Tiger and this clan as foreign scholars are
>wont to do sometimes. :)
>
>I based them on the Mound building cultures of North America. They build
>mounds in the shape of serpents, and are tied to the Green Dragon that
>lives in the area (sort of... they're not bad, nor are they controlled by
>it. They just know of it and sort of incorporate its image into their
>artwork and buildings). I didn't get much farther than that, though, but
>they are (as I have them) better organized than the Turtle clan, and are
>numerous enough and strong enough to provide a suitable counterbalance to
>the Tiger clan.
>
>-----
>
>Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
>Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
>jsmill@wans.net
>
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What if...

The Viper Clan worshipped a "Snake" god like Seth, perhaps an alias for Azonteotl.  The Lizardmen could worshipped the same "Snake" god.  What does this spell?  Big trouble for southern Darokin and Western Five Shires.  Now, if this snake cult has allies, like Baron Ludwig and The Master, this spells doom for Five Shires and Darokin.


--

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:08:46    Ranma Al'Thor wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
>
>>
>> >> > Similarly, the Turtle clan should either have adapted or been wiped out by the
>> >> > Tiger clan.
>> >>
>> >> But if the Tigers don't adapt, neither do the Turtles have to.
>> >>
>> >Not true.  The Tigers have at least twice the population of the Turtle
>> >clans, no natural barriers, and just as good military technology.  There's
>> >nothing to stop them spreading along the coast and occupying it bit by bit
>> >and wiping out the Turtle Clan in the process.
>>
>> This would be a great adventure.  I imagine this would be the natural
>>track.  The Turtles, would soon be restricted to islands.  The only
>>counter-balance would be Darokin invasion and/or Lizardmen conflict.  Or
>>perhaps, the Viper/Tiger clan is too successful and poses a threat to
>>Five Shires.
>>
>They'd need to conquer Southern Darokin first, which would be a challenge.
>
>
>> Sometimes warfare, you always try to whipe out the strongest holding
>>first.  This severely weakens the enemy allow you to make further
>>inroads, while at the same time increasing your power base.  Attacking
>>the weaker enemy (Turtle)will cause other opponents (Darokin) to become
>>stronger.
>>
>Darokin is a largely defensive nation.  They also don't have much
>particular contact with the Turtle Clan.  If the Tigers wipe them out,
>they can spend a few decades turning the Turtle lands into new homes for
>themselves, then deal with Darokin.  They can plausibly conquer the Turtle
>Clan's lands; Darokin, on the othr hand, would be much more of a fight.
>
>But also importantly, they have a traditional grudge to settle with the
>other clans, while Darokin is just another future conquest victim.
>
>> I think the Viper/Tiger would focus on invading Malpheggi settlements
>>and removing Darokin from this area.  This could be a great adventure.
>>Perhaps they wait until the Desert Nomads strike.  Maybe the Master knows
>>of the possibilities and contacts the leaders of the Viper clan to attack
>>when the Sind forces invade.
>>
>I could see them doing that in the context of an alliance with the Desert
>Master.  I'm sure they've learned from experience that Darokin is too big
>a nut for them to crack by themselves.
>
>
>John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
>ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
>rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
>rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/
>
>Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
>HE and other types above 50 mm.
>--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"
>
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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:05:41 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On  Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:11:24 EST, Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
wrote:

<<doods, i just got my first two gazeteers EVER, and they are extremely
amazingly packed to the gills with information on things i never even knew
i would wonder about.  They are a little hard to follow though, so can
anyone point me in the direction of areas I should focus on as a GM?  I am
planning a campaign in the Emirates, and i have that Gazeteer, and any
helpful tips would surely be appreciated by this perpetually confused
little elf.  Thanks!>>

What a lucky elf you are!
I'm just running a campaign in Ylaruam right now with my third Mystara
gaming group. I've found many useful info in the AD&D book Arabian
Adventures.. just in case..

I've also prepared a quite detailed list of Ylari Immortals I'm about to
share with the list, since the adventures I'm doing involves fiendish cults.

The adventure started out in Selenica as a murder mystery Sherlock Holmes's
style (a man killed in his study, no sign of outsiders going in, all doors
and windows locked, man strangled), then the PCs got the murder and picked
up the trail of blood that led them to this Ylari secret sect, the Order of
the Hated Mother. They're now determined to find out who the real
mastermind behind the killer is, and are about to discover an ancient
buried city that is said to be inhabited by the spawn of the Hated Mother,
"that which crawls in the desert". Here they'll have to discover why the
cultists so desperately wanted the stone tablet they have recovered (an
item the dead man didn't give to the sect) and will have to battle an
ancient evil (same old story).
Basically it'll be a sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (and
they're doing quite well so far). The adventure has been adapted from an
old adventure in Dungeon magazine ("Telar in Norbia").  Since one of the
PCs is a Demon Hunter Investigator, it's a most appropriate adventure, I
think. :)

Advices to run campaigns in Ylaruam:
* play heavily on the differences between the western and eastern (Ylari)
customs, on the heat (they travel by night) and on the dangers of being
lost in the desert;
* read carefully GAZ2, especially the sections dealing with culture,
religious & social beliefs;
* Honor, Faith and Family are the three most important things to the Ylari:
do not forget to remember this and show it to your players whenever you can
(all ylari pray twice a day, all ylari go with bare feet inside the mosque,
all ylari are perfect hosts to their guests, most ylari fight honorably and
don't cheat... etc.);
* remember: Ylari are not necessarily evil, no more than the common
Ethengar or Thyatian that is. They're just a bit different from the common
westerner and do the things their way;
* to draw inspiration for adventures think about the legend of Sinbad's
Voyages, Thousand and One Nights, and other genies stories (the end of GAZ2
is choke full of these kinda adventure scenarios!). Plus u can put the
occasional ruins and tombs from Nithian era into play, and play The Mummy
without going to Thothia or the Hollow World. :)

Again, if you are not satisfied with GAZ2 (which is a VERY good book, IMO),
I'd advise you to buy Arabian Adventures hardback (150+ pages of everything
you'd like to know bout arabian kits and items and magic) by Jeff Grubb and
maybe Assassin Mountain (Al-qadim sourcebox for a sect of assassins, which
could inspire adventures), Al-qadim Monstrous Compendium and the Sha'irs
HBK, to give your players a new class and get more info on genies.

hope to have been helpful. :)


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:08:59 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (long)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi guys!

As I wrote earlier, this is my revised version of the Nithian and later
Ylari pantheon, going from the early days of Nithia to current days. Within
it you'll also discover who Orisis might be, and there is reference to the
real identity of some peculiar immortals mentioned in GAZ2, namely The
Gnoll, Zephyr and Corona.

As usual, comments are welcome.

Enjoy!

Ylari Immortals

Before Al-Kalim (BC 1,500- AC 0)

Good ones:
Horon (Ixion) [Head]
Rathanos
Ptah (Sinbad)
Pflarr
Isiris
Geb (Terra)
Farath (Protius)
Ptahr (Kagyar)
Bes (Tyche)
Bast
Zephyr (Odin)
Hauron (Corona)*

Dark ones:
Thanatos
Ranivorus
Set
Hauron (Corona)*


Wardens of Nithia (Immortals who brought the downfall of Nithia after
Thanatos's corruption and still watch over Nithia's dark secrets in the
outer world):
Horon (Ixion) [Head]
Pflarr (The Gnoll)
Geb (Terra)
Farath (Protius)
Zephyr (Odin)
Orisis (Noumena)
Ptah (Sinbad)


After Nithia (AC0-the present)

Immortal Guardians:
Al-Kalim [Head]
Farath (Protius)
Qeb (Terra)
Sinbad
Ashtiru (Asterius)
Zephyr (Odin)
Ptahr (Kagyar)
Balsam (Chardastes)
Tubak (Ixion)

Immortal Fiends:
Tal'ishaa (Talitha) [Head]
Set
Ranivorus
Al-Fakish (Alphaks)
Rathanos (Corona is granting spells to these deranged Magians)


Thothian Immortals:
Rathanos [Head]
Arachne Prime
Orisis (Noumena)
Ptah (Sinbad)
Horus (Ausar, Noumena's son)
Seker (Eskar, Horus's son)
Farath (Protius)
Geb (Terra)
Bast

[Note: for Set, Horus and Seker I've drawn inspiration from James Mishler's
works, although I've modified some bits. Horus and Seker are not featured
here, and neither is Arachne Prime. Another file for the Thothian pantheon
may follow in the future.]


Description of Ylari Immortals:

Al-Fakish (Alphaks) - Lord of Evil and Violence. He had human sacrifices in
the past. Not a widely followed Immortal, but he helped the Ylari against
Alphatian oppressors. He was worshipped during the Alphatian occupation,
but he doesn't have many followers now: Alphatia is gone (after WotI) and
no Alphatian outposts remain near Ylaruam. The only interest Alphaks has in
Ylaruam is Barimoor. In this case the only goal of the Followers of
Al-Fakish may be:
a) to overthrow the "evil Barimoor", who's trying to plot the downfall of
the Ylari;
b) to rally Barimoor and plan the downfall of all Alphatians remaining in
the Known World.

Al-Kalim - The Prophet, The Peacekeeper, Protector of Ylaruam, Lord of
Freedom, Knowledge and Warfare. The man who brought Ylaruam into the modern
era by chasing out Alphatian and Thyatian overlords and earnt Ylaruam its
freedom. Al-kalim was the first real hero of modern days Ylaruam, and is
the most respected and followed Immortal in that area. He's considered a
Prophet of the Guardian Immortals, but also a deity himself, the Protector
of Ylaruam and bringer of knowledge and peace. It is also the Great
Tactician, worshipped by Ylari raiders, nomads and warriors.

Ashtiru (Asterius) - Mover of the Moon, Bringer of Wealth. One of the new
Guardian Immortals of Ylaruam, was introduced by the Darokininan merchants
in the ninth century and his cult helped al-Kalim's takeover of Alaysia.
All  merchants and many caravan guides (and all non-evil thieves) worship
him to these days.

Balsam (Chardastes) - Patron of Healing. The word 'balm' comes from  his
name. He is fairly neutral to Al-Kalim, since he wanted to devote  his
attention mostly to Traladara. The cult of Chardastes came to Ylaruam via
Selenica in the X century. Chardastes was revered there by Traladaran
immigrants (there's also a university of medicine in Selenica) and some
ylari merchants imported his cult. He became one of the newest Immortal
Guardians and now many "healers" and "doctors" raise prayers to him before
curing patients.

Bast - Cat Goddess, Patroness of Rakastas, Goddess of Luck. Bast is the
goddess who created rakastas, and was worshipped as patroness of luck in
ancient Nithia and still is in Thothia. Her cult is not so widespread
outside rakastan cultures.

Farath (Protius) - Old Man of the Sea, Lord of Waters. He was the  patron
of Al-Kalim. He was happy to allow Al-Kalim take over the Emirates, since
he is only interested in the seas. He's still worshipped as one of the main
Guardian Immortals of Ylaruam, and is considered the bringer of life (since
he's the patron of Water).

Horon/Tubak (Ixion) - Father Sun, Banisher of Darkness. He protects the
Ylari against monstrous enemies and evil, and was the Patron of Just
Warfare in the ancient days of Nithia. He was the most revered Immortal
before Al-Kalim came out, and was likely in competition with Rathanos.
Unfortunately for Rathanos, some of his mages and clerics put it too far
and began using violence to convert other to his cause, burning many
followers "to let them return to the Great Flame". This way the Magian Fire
Worshippers got a negative label and became a secret sect. However, Ixion
has still got a minor following in Ylaruam, in the emirate of Makistan to
be precise. The Makistani are of Ethengar descent, so they probably still
honor Tubak the Lawgiver and Yamuga (Terra), while Cretia has been left out.

Isiris (Valerias) - Patroness of Love, Fertility and Arts. Much worshipped
in old Nithia, lost her followers after the fall of Nithia. Nowadays Farath
is revered as God of Fertility in Ylaruam, Ptahr is God of Arts, while
al-Kalim has taken over the portfolio of kindness and respect toward the
fellow man.

Orisis (Noumena) - Protector of the Dead and Guardian of tombs, Patron of
Knowledge, God of Nature. One of the latest addition to the outer world
Nithia, Orisis was a Nithian pharaoh that attained immortality before
Nithia's destruction, then helped bring its downfall once Thanatos & co.
corrupted it. However, since he had already assured the continuity of his
dinasty in Thothia, his immortal status was saved. Nowadays it is still
revered in Thothia and HW Nithia and by the White Druids of White Isle in
Ierendi.

Pflarr - Patron of Magic and Knowledge. One of the main deities of Nithia,
later caused its downfall seeing how tainted it was by Entropy and turned
his attention from the outer world to the Hollow World, where is is still
one of the main powers of Nithia. Nowadays his portfolio has been taken
over by al-Kalim.

Ptah/Sinbad - Traveler God, Ferryman of the Dead.  He's simply the Traveler
God of the legends: an old Immortal who took the form of a young sailor to
teach the Ylari the ways and the marvels of the world. He's much older than
Al-Kalim and still revered by many adventurers and all the nomadic tribes,
and represents the will to know and to find the answer to any question,
going to great lengths to obtain it. He was one of the main Immortals of
the Nithian pantheon, but has lost importance after Al-Kalim's coming, even
though he doesn't mind. He's also acquired Orisis's portfolio in modern
Ylaruam: guardianship over the dead.

Ptahr (Kagyar) - Patron of Craftsmen and Arts. Remains  friendly with
Al-Kalim, as dwarves and Ylari are allies. He still has some followers from
the days of Nithia. Artisans and artists honor him with some rituals to
craft good items and make profitable business, but he has got few real
clerics.

Qeb/Geb (Terra) - Mother/Father Earth, Lord of the Desert. The ylari have
both a deep respect and a deep love for the desert, which is viewed with
mixed feelings. On the one hand, it's treacherous and deadly, a foe that
must be always dealt with and cannot be trusted, since it hides countless
snares and perils. On the other hand, it's a place of peace and astounding
beauty, where man is in direct contact with his soul and those who created
him: it is a friend for those who know its ways and speak its silent
language. For this reason, the Ylari worship the desert, which is embodied
by Terra, who strives to protect the land (each type of terrain) and that
helps those who try to survive in every condition of living. To the Ylari
the desert is simply *insert arab name for "The Land"*, one of the many
forms of Terra (who is the one that gives the dervishes their spells
together with Al-Kalim).

Rathanos - Lord of Flame, Energy and Life/Destruction. One of the greatest
Immortals of ancient Nithia, has taken over Horon's place as head of the
pantheon in HW Nithia (together with Pflarr). Still honored by efreet and
Magian Fire Worshippers in Ylaruam, and the main deity in the Thothian
pantheon after AC1002 (when the cult of Arachne Prime was outlawed). Not
exactly on the best of terms with Al-Kalim, sworn enemy of Corona.

Zephyr (Odin) - Lord of Storms and Air. Many genies honor him, as well as
many sha'irs and travelers. He was one of the Guardian Immortals who
destroyed Nithia for its sins and who still watches over its dark secrets.



The Dark Lords

Set - Lord of Evil, Revenge and Treason. An old Immortal, formerly a
necromancer king of Taymora, later spread his influence over Nithia drawn
by researches of scholars and other Nithians, who dabbled in dark magics
and sought for more power. He is currently banished in all Nithian
civilizations and in Ylaruam as well,  but ancient cults are die hard and
his beastly sons still slither in the sands of Ylaruam and Thothia. Sworn
enemy of Orisis and his sons.

Ranivorus - Lord of Beasts, Hatred and Insanity. The first gnoll to attain
immortality, this foul Entropic conspired with Thanatos and Corona to
corrupt Nithia and still strives to bring insanity in this land and in
Ylaruam.

Thanatos - Lord of Death and Suffering. The main cause of Nithia's
downfall, his worship is outlawed in Nithia, Ylaruam and Thothia as he
represents the evil aspect of Death. However, many secret cultists still
pay homage to him to bring even more death and suffering to their
civilizations.

Hauron (Corona) - The Dark Side, Lady of Darkness and Diseases. Formerly a
good deity of the Nithian pantheon, Hauron was later corrupted by Thanatos
and switched sides going from Sphere of Thought to that of Entropy. Her
greatest trick was undoing the Nithian empire from inside (with Thanatos's
and Ranivorus's help) without the other powers noticing it until it was too
late. This is why Corona is usually referred to as Thanatos's secret ally.
Former patroness of Healing and Guardian of the Dead, she finally let the
doors of the kingdom of the dead swung open and cursed the land with
diseases. Orisis first discovered her treachery and confronted her, but it
was already too late to save Nithia. She is now patroness of the Dark side
of mortals, diseases and undead in general.

Tal'ishaa (Talitha) - the Hated Mother (mother of Set and Ranivorus), Lady
of Assassins, thieves and deception. Her faith was imported by the
Alphatian overlords around III century AC and quickly merged with the
native Ylari secret sects, bringing back the dead cults of Set and
Ranivorus and unifying their followers under the same banner. (Falsely)
portrayed as the mother of both evil deities (but then nobody was old
enough to deny this), she's patroness of Stealth and usually associated
with murders and theft.




DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

Join the Mystara Webring at:
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Join the Starfleet Academy at:
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:16:38 +0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Houses of Darokin: Hallonica House
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Aaron E Nowack wrote:
>
> After the death of Corwyn Hoff, Rpien Hallonica was elected Chancellor
> (with Houses Mauntea, Corun, Pennydown, Franich, Al-Azrad, and of course
> Hallonica voting for him, and Linton, Franich, and Umbarth voting for
> Lucius Linton, making the greatest runaway victories in Darokinian
> history).
>

Which one of the two "Franich" is the Toney House?

BTW, franich is the younger of the nine houses: when did this house
became a great house? And which whose the demoted house?
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:03:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Houses of Darokin: Hallonica House
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:16:38 +0000 Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
writes:
> Aaron E Nowack wrote:
> >
> > After the death of Corwyn Hoff, Rpien Hallonica was elected
> Chancellor
> > (with Houses Mauntea, Corun, Pennydown, Franich, Al-Azrad, and of
> course
> > Hallonica voting for him, and Linton, Franich, and Umbarth voting
> for
> > Lucius Linton, making the greatest runaway victories in Darokinian
> > history).
> >
>
> Which one of the two "Franich" is the Toney House?

The one voting for Linton.  Thanks for catching that.

> BTW, franich is the younger of the nine houses: when did this house
> became a great house? And which whose the demoted house?

Franich was founded in 937 AC.  I'm not sure exactly when it became a
great house...  possibly around 970.  As for the demoted house, you'll
just have to wait until the House Franich writeup (ie until I come up
with it).


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:19:31 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
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definetly not True Believers

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:25:12 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Gazeteers
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May the Starwatcher's Eyes be on you all, i just found out the origin of
Assassins (my favorite type of character  by the way).  Ask me if you don't
know and i'll tell you!

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    GM to the Monkeywrench

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:27:01 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an Aranea?  is that like Spiderman or
something?

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    GM to the Monkeywrench

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:36:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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It IS a spider, an intelligent, spell-casting spider (quite large too)...

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Arachnophobia


> Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an Aranea?  is that like Spiderman
or
> something?
>
> Meltheim the Shadowstalker
>     GM to the Monkeywrench
>
> ********************************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:30:50 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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>Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an Aranea?  is that like Spiderman
or
>something?


Giant spellcasting spider.  They are normally Bad Guys, kindof like orcs or
whatever (except a bit harder).  On the Savage Coast aranea are more
civilised and not necessarily Bad Guys - in fact,  they are a player
character race.  Savage Coast aranea are a bit different in that they mimic
the form of another creature (human, demihuman or humanoid) and use that a
disguise - as other races are (justifiably) more than a little
suspicious/afraid/xenophobic/rightly scared about them.

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:03:21 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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Rob wrote:
>
> Giant spellcasting spider.  They are normally Bad Guys, kindof like orcs or
> whatever (except a bit harder).  On the Savage Coast aranea are more
> civilised and not necessarily Bad Guys - in fact,  they are a player
> character race.  Savage Coast aranea are a bit different in that they mimic
> the form of another creature (human, demihuman or humanoid) and use that a
> disguise - as other races are (justifiably) more than a little
> suspicious/afraid/xenophobic/rightly scared about them.

They were originally bad guys, but in the grand tradition of Mystara, they're
just fairly self-centered as a race. (Personality wise, most araneas are
secretive, and they think everyone has something to hide.) They're sort of like
illithids in culture in that they considered other sentients to be slaves and
food. This was in the past, modern aranea do not share this view; they still
think they're better than other races, but most would be rather revolted about
the idea of eating another sentient being, and an aranea who did so would be
viewed as an eccentric or dangerous. In many ways being an aranea is like
belonging to a secret society, in which exposure means death.

Also note that on the Savage Coast, araneas are thought to be extinct, a few
wild specimens may be encountered here and there but for the most part no one
believes they are alive anymore. Undead aranea, called Arashaeem, do exist, and
even in undeath they propogate the rumor that the entire race was slain and
they're a nightmarish leftover. (Other araneas actually go to great lengths to
eliminate Arashaeems because they fear they may inadverdently let the secret
slip out.)

Finally, it's been suggested that araneas have multiple kingdoms in Mystara, but
Herath is the most powerful and secretive of them, the others are likely in
wilderness areas where they do not need to rely upon shapeshifting to disguise
themselves. Likely there are a variety of aranean cultures, the only commonality
would be their dedication to the arcane arts.

IronWolf

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:25:33 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.

This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.  Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?

Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.


--

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:56:23    David Knott wrote:
>In a message dated 2000-02-02 7:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>Mystaros@AOL.COM writes:
>
><< The Viper tribe is able to manufacture primitive bronze weapons and
>shields;
> however, all the tribes are able to use "acquired" metal weapons. However,
> IMC their religion forbids them from using anything other than stone unless
> their opponents are also similarly armed... and there is far less honor
> gained in defeating a foe with a metal weapon. Metal armor is right out in
> any case...  >>
>
>Of course, from what I read in Gaz 14 about the Viper/Tiger tribe they freely
>use metal weapons (tipped with poison) and wear metal breastplates and
>carry metal shields -- both finely polished so as to reflect the sun directly
>into the eyes of their foes.  Add in guerilla tactics of shooting at intruders
>(with poisoned arrows) from the forests and you have a tribe well capable
>of holding off more "civilized" armies.
>
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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:29:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
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Sounds good.  I'll see if I can get this.  I wish they made a CD of Dungeon articles as well...
--

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 02:09:03    The Stalker wrote:
>--
>
>On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:44:53    Darth Darknerd wrote:
>(snip)
>>
>>This would be a great adventure.  I imagine this would be the natural track.  The Turtles, would soon be restricted to islands.  The only counter-balance would be Darokin invasion and/or Lizardmen conflict.
>
>
>Hmmm, I actually ran an adventure similar to this one several years ago. I stole it outright from an adventure in Dungeon. It was for the Greyhawk campaign I think, but it worked rather well with little fuss or changes required on my part (perhaps because Grayhawk is almost as illogical a world as Mystara - I mean look at the sort of nations they have right next to each other).
>
>If you're interested look in Dungeon no.32. I don't have it anymore myself (another kind DM wanted to borrow it and it seems that he liked it so much, that he never bothered to return it). But I know it was in no. 32. Basically, I had the PCs travelling between Athenos and Darokin City when a shaman (or whatever) of the Turtle clan came running toward them having been pursued through much of the Malpheggi Swamp by members of the Viper clan. The PCs naturally had to rescue her, and then stop the ongoing conquest of the Turtle clan by the Viper clan. The players really liked it, and I must admit that it worked better than I'd expected (ah, the memories of old...) ;)
>
>   - The Stalker
>
>
>
>Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
>
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:27:35 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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>They were originally bad guys, but in the grand tradition of Mystara,
they're
>just fairly self-centered as a race. (Personality wise, most araneas are
>secretive, and they think everyone has something to hide.) They're sort of
like
>illithids in culture in that they considered other sentients to be slaves
and
>food. This was in the past, modern aranea do not share this view; they
still
>think they're better than other races, but most would be rather revolted
about
>the idea of eating another sentient being, and an aranea who did so would
be
>viewed as an eccentric or dangerous. In many ways being an aranea is like
>belonging to a secret society, in which exposure means death.


Yep.  They are pretty damn cool :)

They turned up in the Isle of Dread adventure originally.  a small camp of
them, there for the party to kill.  Ahh, such classics.

>Finally, it's been suggested that araneas have multiple kingdoms in
Mystara, but
>Herath is the most powerful and secretive of them, the others are likely in
>wilderness areas where they do not need to rely upon shapeshifting to
disguise
>themselves. Likely there are a variety of aranean cultures, the only
commonality
>would be their dedication to the arcane arts.

I always assume the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn was what they were hinting
at here.  I think Savage Coast aranea are unique in their shapeshifting
abilities however - thats probably why Herath is the best kept secret aranea
kingdom.  SC aranea are a bit different from their brethren in other
respects as well - they aren't evil (the Plateau aranea definitely are),
they are physically smaller, their poison is a lot weaker but they can use
webs in battle.

I always assumed that Herath is a splinter group of aranea, due to their
differences, and that the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn is where they
originally came from.  The Plateau aranea were all in the thrall of Aketheti
and her Immortal spiderqueen (cant remember her name now), while I noted
that Yehm (Korotiku) is the patron of Herath - perhaps Yehm lead some of his
followers away from the IoD to form his own kingdom (perhaps Yehm was an
aranea himself and achieved Immortality doing just that?).   As you say,
aranea are not intrinsically evil (it certainly says that in Talons of
Night), but the Isle of Dawn aranea have been corrupted by Entropy.

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:03:32 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      Almanac review
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I love the Almanacs.  It's been a while since i have been actively =
following Mystara and was heart broken when the line was discontinued.  =
i really love the new country and regions opening up.  i was wondering =
if there is any War Machine stats for the new areas of the world?  i =
have Red Arrow Black Shield, and the first three almanacs but when they =
converted to AD&D the army stats were removed.  I would love to hear how =
the armies of the world have evolved if anyone has keep them up or ideas =
about how to create their stats for the new areas.  email me at =
neal1@tecinfo.com if you have any info or ideas.

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>I love the Almanacs.&nbsp; It's been a while =
since i=20
have been actively following Mystara and was heart broken when the line =
was=20
discontinued.&nbsp; i really love the new country and regions opening =
up.&nbsp;=20
i was wondering if there is any War Machine stats for the new areas of =
the=20
world?&nbsp; i have Red Arrow Black Shield, and the first three almanacs =
but=20
when they converted to AD&amp;D the army stats were removed.&nbsp; I =
would love=20
to hear how the armies of the world have evolved if anyone has keep them =
up or=20
ideas about how to create their stats for the new areas.&nbsp; email me =
at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:neal1@tecinfo.com">neal1@tecinfo.com</A> if you have any =
info or=20
ideas.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF6E81.BF23E360--

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:56:05 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin culture
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In a message dated 2000-02-03 8:29:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
darknerd@HOTBOT.COM writes:

<< Sounds good.  I'll see if I can get this.  I wish they made a CD of
Dungeon articles as well...  >>

>From a tidbit I saw at Eric Noah's 3E site, it appears that Wizards of the
Coast is planning to do exactly that.  I have seen no word giving an exact
date, however.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:56:04 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: sind vegetation
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In a message dated 2000-02-03 7:08:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tsarlat@PICASSO.ETU.MONTAIGNE.U-BORDEAUX.FR writes:

<< thanks but what do you mean?
 walnut trees? bamboos?what kind of species?  >>

I would guess that he is referring to palms, dates, figs, and
other plants that are mentioned in the Bible.

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:17:27 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      Sind vegetation
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6E94.747FA200"

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Thanks dave, thats what i ment but the suggestions about the indus type =
rivers was also good

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks dave, thats what i ment but =
the=20
suggestions about the indus type rivers was also =
good</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:56:30 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Isle of Dread
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Rob wrote:
>
> I always assume the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn was what they were hinting
> at here.  I think Savage Coast aranea are unique in their shapeshifting
> abilities however - thats probably why Herath is the best kept secret aranea
> kingdom.  SC aranea are a bit different from their brethren in other
> respects as well - they aren't evil (the Plateau aranea definitely are),
> they are physically smaller, their poison is a lot weaker but they can use
> webs in battle.

Hm... from my knowledge of the Isle of Dread, the araneas there were simply a
splinter group, without connection to the ruins on Taboo Island, which was a
remnant of the Kopru empire from ages ago. (The Kopru were the sea/mud dwelling
nasties, they're futher detailed in PC3 for players.)

> I always assumed that Herath is a splinter group of aranea, due to their
> differences, and that the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn is where they
> originally came from.  The Plateau aranea were all in the thrall of Aketheti
> and her Immortal spiderqueen (cant remember her name now), while I noted
> that Yehm (Korotiku) is the patron of Herath - perhaps Yehm lead some of his
> followers away from the IoD to form his own kingdom (perhaps Yehm was an
> aranea himself and achieved Immortality doing just that?).   As you say,
> aranea are not intrinsically evil (it certainly says that in Talons of
> Night), but the Isle of Dawn aranea have been corrupted by Entropy.

I've not read Talons of Night yet, but I don't recall seeing anything in Isle of
Dread mentioning an Aketheti or any kind of aranea society... *scratches head*

IronWolf

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Date:         Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:00:13 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      New map on site, the Savage Baronies
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Greetings.

Okay, I've finally finished the map of the Savage Baronies! It is extrapolated
from the three maps presented in Dragon magazine in the Princess Ark series, but
these are combined maps so that you can see all the Savage Baronies at once. It
also includes the region to the northwest of the baronies. There's definitely no
other map like this of this region, except for the ones packaged with Red Steel,
which lacked hexes. (When did hexes become taboo? I like hexes!)

My next project naturally goes further west, to the barbarian kingdoms of
Robrenn and Eusdria, which will also share space. The Savage Baronies was such a
large map it occasionally crashed my system moving about the data. (Paint wasn't
designed for mass memory movement it seems.) After the kingdoms will be Renardy
and Bellayne, then I think I will try to but the entire end peninsula on one
map.

Enjoy!

IronWolf

http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:56:13 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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In a message dated 2000-02-03 8:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
darknerd@HOTBOT.COM writes:

<< As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.

 This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.
Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?

 Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or
swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one
shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes
one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.  >>

But the difference is much less when the majority of foes are level 0-1.
In such cases, the danger to oneself and one's allies of handling poison
might well outweigh the advantage gained in terms of increased combat
effectiveness.  Furthermore, the "civilized" nations of Mystara do have
concepts of international law (or at least international customs) and rules
of war that (among many other things) forbid the use of poison.  Nations
that routinely violate those rules are likely to find themselves regarded
as savage barbarians, which in turn would lead to them being treated
more harshly by their enemies.  Of course, primitive tribes who are already
regarded as "savage barbarians" have very little to lose by resorting to
poison.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:05:55 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      Re: sind vegetation
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ok then , here is the thing:
i'll add a few light wooded areas in the asanda valley and i'll put my
map online in ping.then , go and tell me what you think. (as i tend to
like forest i may be tempted to add too much of it).
Thanks to anyone who gave me an answer.

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:24:09 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Isle of Dread
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>Hm... from my knowledge of the Isle of Dread, the araneas there were simply
a
>splinter group, without connection to the ruins on Taboo Island, which was
a
>remnant of the Kopru empire from ages ago. (The Kopru were the sea/mud
dwelling
>nasties, they're futher detailed in PC3 for players.)


As I said.  There are only a handful there.  The question is how did they
get there?

>I've not read Talons of Night yet, but I don't recall seeing anything in
Isle of
>Dread mentioning an Aketheti or any kind of aranea society... *scratches
head*

It doesnt.  But aranea have their origins in the Outer Planes, and if that
is so it seems more than likely that their original abode was the Isle of
Dawn.

I'm just saying that if that is true, some of them must have migrated
westward to end up in Herath.  The Isle of Dread is more or less on the
route.

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:56:11 +0100
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Maps of Mystara's cities
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Hi to everyone.
There's some place in the web where can I find some maps about Mystara's
cities?
I'm looking expecially for Thyatis city but others would be welcomed.
Thanks,
Marco Fossati

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:01:20 -0600
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From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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I think that our own wonderful (sic) experience with chemical warfare would
illustrate the point that it can come back to bit you after using it. Also
it would
likely kill as many friendly troops as enemy troops.

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Atraughin Cultures


> As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.
>
> This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use
poison.  Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area
does not?
>
> Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or
swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one
shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes
one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.
>
>
> --
>
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:56:23    David Knott wrote:
> >In a message dated 2000-02-02 7:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >Mystaros@AOL.COM writes:
> >
> ><< The Viper tribe is able to manufacture primitive bronze weapons and
> >shields;
> > however, all the tribes are able to use "acquired" metal weapons.
However,
> > IMC their religion forbids them from using anything other than stone
unless
> > their opponents are also similarly armed... and there is far less honor
> > gained in defeating a foe with a metal weapon. Metal armor is right out
in
> > any case...  >>
> >
> >Of course, from what I read in Gaz 14 about the Viper/Tiger tribe they
freely
> >use metal weapons (tipped with poison) and wear metal breastplates and
> >carry metal shields -- both finely polished so as to reflect the sun
directly
> >into the eyes of their foes.  Add in guerilla tactics of shooting at
intruders
> >(with poisoned arrows) from the forests and you have a tribe well capable
> >of holding off more "civilized" armies.
> >
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>
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:02:07 EST
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I'd be sure and include some farmland along the river.  It is the last major water source before the Great Waste, and would have extensive subcntinent style irrigation.

I seem to remember from CoM that the Sind desert has slowly been growing and now covers more area than it did in ages past.  Anyone else recall this?

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:19:23 EST
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Subject:      Bad Guys (was Arachnophobia)
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Just my two cents

The disguised, spellcasting, paranoid, carnivorous spider creatures will always be bad guys in my campaign.  Not very politically correct, I know, but . . .

Come On! My heroic fantasy needs some Bad Guys. The analogy someone made to the incect creatures of X-Files who were "hiding in the light" totally sets the mood for my campaigns spiderfolk.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:50:09 -0800
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Rob writes:

>>I always assume the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn was
what they were
hinting
at here.  I think Savage Coast aranea are unique in
their shapeshifting
abilities however - thats probably why Herath is the
best kept secret
aranea
kingdom.  SC aranea are a bit different from their
brethren in other
respects as well - they aren't evil (the Plateau
aranea definitely
are),
they are physically smaller, their poison is a lot
weaker but they can
use
webs in battle.

I always assumed that Herath is a splinter group of
aranea, due to
their
differences, and that the Plateau on the Isle of Dawn
is where they
originally came from.  The Plateau aranea were all in
the thrall of
Aketheti
and her Immortal spiderqueen (cant remember her name
now), while I
noted
that Yehm (Korotiku) is the patron of Herath - perhaps
Yehm lead some
of his
followers away from the IoD to form his own kingdom
(perhaps Yehm was
an
aranea himself and achieved Immortality doing just
that?).   As you
say,
aranea are not intrinsically evil (it certainly says
that in Talons of
Night), but the Isle of Dawn aranea have been
corrupted by Entropy.<<

Check out some of my ideas on lycanthropy in Tome of
Mystara issue #2.  I tried to tie that into Herathian
shapechangers.  I wrote that stuff before getting my
hands on a copy of Talons of Night.  Lo and behold,
there are shapechanging spiders there too!  These do
seem to be in a minority however, all being offspring
of Aketheti (sp?).

I love your workup on the different sub-races of
arenea.  It would be really cool to see a list of the
different arenean nations/cultures.  Where they are
located, and the percentages of the different racial
groups that make them up.
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:16:42 -0600
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Subject:      Re: Almanac review
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>  i was wondering if there is any War Machine stats for the new areas of
the world?
>
There may or may not be such stats in next year's Alm (1017).
Also, the various folk who have created/designed/described the "new areas"
might have such stats, or at least ideas they could share. Check out Stan's
site regarding each nation, and you'll likely see the author or authors of
such reasons listed, with their e-mail addresses, so if you're interested
in any specific nation it wouldn't hurt to contact them. Most haven't eaten
inquirers for several years now.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:18:54 -0800
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Damon Alexander Brown <habgyp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bad Guys (was Arachnophobia)
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--- Master's Pawn <BoBoII@AOL.COM> wrote:
> Come On! My heroic fantasy needs some Bad Guys. The
> analogy someone made to the incect creatures of
> X-Files who were "hiding in the light" totally sets
> the mood for my campaigns spiderfolk.

  Wait. Do you mean 'insect' or 'incest' creatures? At
first, I assumed you meant 'insect' but then I thought
of the infamous episode "Home". <shudder>
  Sorry, I know that was OT, not to mention
*extremely* disturbing...

-Damon
(who had trouble sleeping after seeing that episode)

=====
"He who laughs last... thinks slowest."
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:23:15 -0600
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Maps of Mystara's cities
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>
> Hi to everyone.
> There's some place in the web where can I find some maps about Mystara's
> cities? I'm looking expecially for Thyatis city but others would be
welcomed.
> Thanks,
>
Well, I have *a* map posted, but I doubt it's the kind of thing that will
be helpful to you. It's at:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Images/ThyScale.gif

That map is simply a (very bad quality) photocopy of the TSR map, with
"scale" examples on it. The poor quality of the image is somewhat
deliberate, because TSR frowns on such things so it wasn't my intention to
post something good enough for people to really find useful - It was just
made to illustrate something.

Anyhow, if that helps you, more power to you.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:44:27 -0600
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bad Guys (was Arachnophobia)
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Oh, Bad Guys...

In Mystara...

You have trouble finding bad guys, (giggle)...

You mean, like the Pragmati, or Bargle, or Alphaks, or
Thanatos...

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: Master's Pawn <BoBoII@AOL.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:19 AM
Subject: [MYSTARA] Bad Guys (was Arachnophobia)


> Just my two cents
>
> The disguised, spellcasting, paranoid, carnivorous spider creatures will
always be bad guys in my campaign.  Not very politically correct, I know,
but . . .
>
> Come On! My heroic fantasy needs some Bad Guys. The analogy someone made
to the incect creatures of X-Files who were "hiding in the light" totally
sets the mood for my campaigns spiderfolk.
>
> ********************************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:52:13 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Maps of Mystara's cities
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A note about copyrights...

If you scan an image of a map and then add to it significantly
it is no longer the property of the people who originally
created the map. So if one had a TSR map of Thyatis city
created an outline out of it, then redid the the each of the
buildings as real structures (rather than black squares), named
several of the streets, pointed to significant sites, etc. The map
would be your map, based upon TSR's map.

Also, numerous court cases have upheld that you CAN NOT
copyright a name. The biggest case on this was when
US Naval Institute Press sued Tom Clancy because he wrote
a Jack Ryan Novel (originally the main character in Hunt for
Red October) for another publisher. USNIP lost the case and
had to settle. Their argument was that Jack Ryan was a USNIP
copyright. The court ruled that it is not possible to copyright a
name.

Just my two cent's worth,

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Maps of Mystara's cities


> >
> > Hi to everyone.
> > There's some place in the web where can I find some maps about Mystara's
> > cities? I'm looking expecially for Thyatis city but others would be
> welcomed.
> > Thanks,
> >
> Well, I have *a* map posted, but I doubt it's the kind of thing that will
> be helpful to you. It's at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Images/ThyScale.gif
>
> That map is simply a (very bad quality) photocopy of the TSR map, with
> "scale" examples on it. The poor quality of the image is somewhat
> deliberate, because TSR frowns on such things so it wasn't my intention to
> post something good enough for people to really find useful - It was just
> made to illustrate something.
>
> Anyhow, if that helps you, more power to you.
>
> ********************************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:10:43 -0600
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From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
In-Reply-To:  <CIBJGIAIGFJBBAAA@hotbot.com>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:

> This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.  Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?
>
Same reason real world forces usually didn't.
1.  It's expensive.
2.  It's hard to get enough to equip a very large army with it.
3.  It leads to accidents where your own troops die.
4.  A fair number of cultures don't know much about making it.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:17:31 EST
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Subject:      Re: Bad Guys (was Arachnophobia)
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i meant "these guys are the bad guys", not just An Evil Individual.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:15:04 -0000
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From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
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>Just my two cents
>
>The disguised, spellcasting, paranoid, carnivorous spider creatures will
always be bad guys in my campaign.  Not very politically correct, I know,
but . . .


Heh.  Well, my players are all convinced they are evil.  I'm not trying to
make it that way, but thats the impression they have of them.

Just Because its a Spellcasting Paranoid Carnivorous Spider Doesnt Mean its
a Bad Person.

:)

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:46:31 +0000
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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Darth Darknerd wrote:
>
> As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.
>
> This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.  Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?
>
> Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.
>

Making poisons isn't so easy: most natural poisons last only for some
days, and only the poisonous magic potions made by an alchemist or
wizard are permanent. So it's only slightly less costly than, say,
giving magic arrows to an army.
--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm

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One thing that I observed that people like about Mystara is that there are no untouchable "Gods" or "Dieties" as in other campaign worlds.  Gods are simply Immortals, and Immortality is a state that any PC can eventually acheive.

However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character) understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people like gods.


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From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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Well, how to people know that someone is "1st level" or under?  Do people go around with the HP painted on their breast plate?  Personally, I would not use artificial elements like HD into war mechanics.

Secondly, I doubt that all the nations have this agreement like our modern world United Nations.  In medievil times, there were no rules.  Tens and Hundreds of thousands of people perished in brutality of "noble" leaders.  Personally, I would not evaluate a medievil fantasy world through the eyes of our contempary societies.


--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:56:13    David Knott wrote:
>In a message dated 2000-02-03 8:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>darknerd@HOTBOT.COM writes:
>
><< As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.
>
> This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.
>Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?
>
> Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or
>swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one
>shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes
>one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.  >>
>
>But the difference is much less when the majority of foes are level 0-1.
>In such cases, the danger to oneself and one's allies of handling poison
>might well outweigh the advantage gained in terms of increased combat
>effectiveness.  Furthermore, the "civilized" nations of Mystara do have
>concepts of international law (or at least international customs) and rules
>of war that (among many other things) forbid the use of poison.  Nations
>that routinely violate those rules are likely to find themselves regarded
>as savage barbarians, which in turn would lead to them being treated
>more harshly by their enemies.  Of course, primitive tribes who are already
>regarded as "savage barbarians" have very little to lose by resorting to
>poison.
>
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:41:33 -0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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>One thing that I observed that people like about Mystara is that there are
no untouchable "Gods" or "Dieties" as in other campaign worlds.  Gods are
simply Immortals, and Immortality is a state that any PC can eventually
acheive.
>
>However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think of
Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people like
gods.


When I run I dont consider Immortals to be any less in stature somehow than
the Gods of other campaign worlds.

The only difference is that Immortals were once mortal.  Aside from that
they are entirely comparable.

Cheers

Rob

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:33:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
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> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara
to not think of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and
DMs (out of character) understand Immortality, but the
people of Mystara think of these people like gods.


And so they should. The secrets of the Multiverse are not
accessible to the commoners - And PC's at low (1-20) level.

Immortals only really become accessible when you hit level
30. Even then, you still have 6 levels more to go before you
can even hope to attain the honor.


Ethan

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:47:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Jeremy Morris <morris@MCS.KENT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think
> of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
> understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
> like gods.

I agree whole-heartedly.  In fact, I've always considered the Immortals to
be just like the gods or Powers of other worlds.  Each of the other
campaign worlds has gods that were once mortal and gods that have always
existed.  Mystara just has more former mortals than the other worlds, at
least IMCs.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:51:08 -0800
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Damon Alexander Brown <habgyp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Poison (was: Atraughin Cultures)
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--- Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM> wrote:
> Well, how to people know that someone is "1st level"
> or under?  Do people go around with the HP painted
> on their breast plate?  Personally, I would not use
> artificial elements like HD into war mechanics.

  However, the average person would be considered the
equivalent of a 0-level or 1st level character. Said
another way, anyone above 1st level is definitely
heartier than the norm.

> Secondly, I doubt that all the nations have this
> agreement like our modern world United Nations.  In
> medievil times, there were no rules.  Tens and
> Hundreds of thousands of people perished in
> brutality of "noble" leaders.  Personally, I would
> not evaluate a medievil fantasy world through the
> eyes of our contempary societies.

  But even by medieval standards, poison was pretty
barbaric. In fact, most cultures (at least western
ones) have considered the use of poison to be
unethical or immoral. They didn't need some UN type
organization to come up with that... they came to the
same conclusion independently.

-Damon

=====
"He who laughs last... thinks slowest."
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:21:41 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Maps of Mystara's cities
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unfortunately, i think you're trying to do what i did earlier, and that is
get free maps.  i'm sorry but this group doesn't seem to know of many places,
or won't tell me of any, however Thibault has a good map site, but i'm not
sure about city maps.  Your best bet would be to find someone with a GAZ to
scan it for you or something, but it wasn't me that told you to do that ok?

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:06:23 -0800
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From:         Greg Weatherup <gwxup@EXCITE.COM>
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First off, welcome to da list!

>  1.  Messages seem to be exceedingly long.  I subscribe to the digest
>  format and it takes me forever to get through everything.  This would
>  be wonderful if there were original content in each message but almost
>  all of the messages seem to snip an extraordinary amount from the
>  previous thread.  I don't want to be critical but this is a waste of
>  everyone's time.

just do what I do and skip through the parts your not interested in.  once a
thread gets too involved, I just scroll on past any messages with that
subject.

Greg Weatherup
Gecko
GWxup@excite.com
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html





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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:19:03 +0100
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From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Fiendslayer
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I read about 'Fiendslayer' in 1016 almanac. A good sword, but there's one
thing I don't understand. What can be do to have that sword at 'half' or
'full strength'?
Thanks,
Marco Fossati

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:48:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
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Interestigly, from this perspective, one could have people like the Que of Star Trek NG.  These people are essentially immortal.  One guy was tolerated to go rogue and play Mortals and play god.

This is similar to the Greek gods and how they always played with the mortal's lives and pitted them against one another for their petty squabblings.

Other Immortals don't heed attention until their patrons are affected.  The Immortals are mindful to not step on others shoes, lest they inact a holy war where their patrons disappear.

IMC, I have Immortals gather power by the number of worshippers they have.  There are many ways to gain power, and worshippers is one way.  Somehow the mental energy transcends to life energy for the Immortals.  Priests grant more energy.  Higher level priests grant even more energy.

--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:47:20    Jeremy Morris wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
>> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think
>> of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
>> understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
>> like gods.
>
>I agree whole-heartedly.  In fact, I've always considered the Immortals to
>be just like the gods or Powers of other worlds.  Each of the other
>campaign worlds has gods that were once mortal and gods that have always
>existed.  Mystara just has more former mortals than the other worlds, at
>least IMCs.
>
>********************************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:57:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
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Subject:      Poison and Magic production (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atraughin Cultures)
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This opens up another discussion...

Magical production.  With so many wizards, it is feasible for some wizards to produce magical weapons to equip an army.  The regular +1 weapons should be easier to produce in quantity.  While +2 and +3 take a long time.  Perhaps elite shock forces or honor guards are equipped with +3s, while popular elite units have +2.  Weapons of +4 and +5 are all to rare.  To produce a +5 would take the same time and energy to make hundreds of +1 weapons.  These weapons would be for great leaders or awards to heros.  The +5 would be legendary weapons that would gather armies just by reputation.  Just look at Excalibur and what this meant for a whole society.

I don't think there are any rules from and D&D variety for mass-production of magical weapons.  There should be.

Almost every fantasy conquest game you play, there eventually is a chance to get such weapons.  In the game MOM (Masters of Magic), units produced at a  city with a Alchemy Tower automatically are equipped with a magical weapon.  In AOW (Age of Wondors) and Warlords, heros get more power weapons.  In Warlords, some weapons can increase the morality or add other affects to every units stacked in the leaders army.

I think it is time to equate magical weaponary and arsena in to the tactics of Mystara...



--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:46:31    Agathokles wrote:
>Darth Darknerd wrote:
>>
>> As a general, I would sure hate to command force to invade those lands.
>>
>> This brings me to the question of poison.  Why doesn't everyone use poison.  Is there some reason why one group uses poison, and another area does not?
>>
>> Also, consider D&D/AD&D/D&D3 mechanics.  It might take a few arrows or swings of a sword to kill an opponent.  In the real world, it only took one shot in many cases (especially for crossbows).  In both RW and KW, it takes one dart (arrow/sword/etc.) with poison to kill the opponent.
>>
>
>Making poisons isn't so easy: most natural poisons last only for some
>days, and only the poisonous magic potions made by an alchemist or
>wizard are permanent. So it's only slightly less costly than, say,
>giving magic arrows to an army.
>--
>
>
>                Giampaolo Agosta
>
>
>agathokles@libero.it
>http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm
>
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:14:50 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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Damon Alexander Brown wrote:
>--- Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM> wrote:
>> Well, how to people know that someone is "1st level"
>> or under?  Do people go around with the HP painted
>> on their breast plate?  Personally, I would not use
>> artificial elements like HD into war mechanics.
>
>  However, the average person would be considered the
>equivalent of a 0-level or 1st level character. Said
>another way, anyone above 1st level is definitely
>heartier than the norm.

I can agree with this, but this is rather a AD&D metric which is not all that realistic in most senses.  Nevertheless, a simple slash of a sword will not kill a person unless the opponent rolled low on HP and the weapon DMG rolled high.  Most cases one slash should be enough.

Either way, I understand other people's comments on the matter and agree with them.  Poison is short lived, more readily accessible in a jungle/forested environment.  Thus is not available to the masses.

>> Secondly, I doubt that all the nations have this
>> agreement like our modern world United Nations.  In
>> medieval times, there were no rules.  Tens and
>> Hundreds of thousands of people perished in
>> brutality of "noble" leaders.  Personally, I would
>> not evaluate a medieval fantasy world through the
>> eyes of our contemporary societies.
>
>  But even by medieval standards, poison was pretty
>barbaric. In fact, most cultures (at least western
>ones) have considered the use of poison to be
>unethical or immoral. They didn't need some UN type
>organization to come up with that... they came to the
>same conclusion independently.
>
>-Damon

I'm not sure if I agree that everyone in medieval times has a natural sense of moralities.  People were butchering, raping, torturing and enslaving each other left and right.  One moment, a person is a villain, only to be a saint the next moment, and then a villain by next winter.  Roles shift, moralities are undefined.

Just look at the interesting folks like Byzantium Empire, which butchered 100,000 Pualines because they interpreted the Bible differently.  Or the Magyars or "Horsemen of Apoclypse" which butchered thousands of people, such as on raid where 50,000 Italians were annihilated.  Then there are the Viking raiders.  The more organized nations, most people were restricted to never leave their land and always work for the Baron, sometimes for free using one's one equipment, like in the lands of Dacia.



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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:16:26 -0800
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Off with ye head you pirate.  *thwong* *thong*
Arrows fly by Metheim's ear from the city guard.


--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:21:41    Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote:
>unfortunately, i think you're trying to do what i did earlier, and that is
>get free maps.  i'm sorry but this group doesn't seem to know of many places,
>or won't tell me of any, however Thibault has a good map site, but i'm not
>sure about city maps.  Your best bet would be to find someone with a GAZ to
>scan it for you or something, but it wasn't me that told you to do that ok?
>
>Meltheim the Shadowstalker
>    Infiltrator to the Immortals
>        Devotee of Fate
>            Eyes of the Starwatcher
>
>********************************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:33:21 -0600
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Poison and Magic production (was Re: [MYSTARA]Atraughin
              Cultures)
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>
> I don't think there are any rules from and D&D variety for
mass-production of magical weapons.
>  There should be.
>
Well, I'm not sure there should be. Not because you're wrong, but because
it's two different sorts of things: there may be enough wizards (I'm not
sure) and clerics to enchant a lot of weapons, but each enchantment project
would still be more of an "art" than an "industry" - mass-production
wouldn't apply. It's just that since there are so many "artisans" around
they might (again, I'm not so sure) be able to produce items (at least
"uncomplicated" ones) in fairly good numbers, in agrigate. Whether that'd
be enough to equip entire armies probably depends on what is appropriate in
given campaigns. Elite units, would perhaps be more likely to have magic
items.

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:39:04 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fiendslayer
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it's probably the quality of the sword itself.  As one that has made a sword
and several daggers for not only myself but others, if a blade is chipped or
cracked, either in the creation or the usage, it can compromise the integrity
of the blade.  If i know that my hand and a half bastard sword has a hairline
fracture near the base due to a problem encountered during forging, i will
not attack with all of my strength due to the fact that i might break the
blade.  This is probaby what is meant by "half" or "full" strength.  Although
I have not read about the Fiendslayer, i can only assume that this is what is
meant.

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:41:17 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Kill him!!!
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i'm not a pirate, you disgrace my honor by believing it so!  (psst, if anyone
wants ylaraum or shadow elves, just ask, i may be able to "part" with either
. . .)

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of theStarwatcher

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:44:12 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fiendslayer
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> blade.  This is probaby what is meant by "half" or "full" strength.
Although
> I have not read about the Fiendslayer, i can only assume that this is
what is
> meant.
>
A good guess. But in this case "Fiendslayer" is one of the "Alphatian
Artifacts" - they have range limits. Within 1,000 miles of the Sundsvall
Maelstorm, they act at a given strength (this is their "full strength"),
between 1,000 and 2,000 miles away from the SM they act at "half strength".

IIRC, the description in the Alm provides details as to what is "half
strength" for this particular weapon. As to why they act this way, details
are provided in the 1015 Alm, IIRC. The "short" version of the reason is
that they do this because they are "empowered" because of, and by the,
release of the Radience which destroyed Alphatia, and as such the further
away from the sunken continent they are taken, their effects/powers
decrease.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:01:04 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (short)
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Hi guys!

An important note I forgot: I started writing the file on Ylari Immortals
taking inspiration from an old file on the same matter by Aleksei
Andrievski. Some of the ylari names for known immortals are his, so credit
to who's due! :)


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html

Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:40:39 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:47:20    Jeremy Morris wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
>> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think
>> of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
>> understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
>> like gods.
>
>I agree whole-heartedly.  In fact, I've always considered the Immortals to
>be just like the gods or Powers of other worlds.  Each of the other
>campaign worlds has gods that were once mortal and gods that have always
>existed.  Mystara just has more former mortals than the other worlds, at
>least IMCs.

Actually, I'm a bit relieved by reading this. It's seemed to me for a while that people on this list don't like AD&D gods and all that much. Well, I'm probably already a 'Dupuisian Heretic', so I might as well admit to being a Heretic in other matters as well: I *LIKE* Planescape and Spelljammer and the AD&D multiverse in general. And I prefer to Mystara's Immortals just the same as gods from other campaign settings. I once played a character in a Grayhawk campaign that saw the gods merely as Immortal beings and refused to call them gods - to him there were insects, humans, dragons, and 'gods' in an order of power, i.e., just because the next being is more powerful wouldn't mean that it had sort of moral superiority or had more rights, just that it had more powers. I tend to think of the relationship between Mystarans and Immortals in the same way: those who call them Immortals rather than gods do so because they think of them merely as extremely experienced and thus powerful adventurers!
    I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings. The only problem is that Mystara clearly has connection to other planes that seem to be unknown elsewhere (Nightmare Dimension, for example) and the odd balance between the spheres. The Old Ones would be another mystery.
    Comments?


   - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:26:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
In-Reply-To:  <20000204155009.16916.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com>
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At 07:50 AM 2/4/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Check out some of my ideas on lycanthropy in Tome of
>Mystara issue #2.  I tried to tie that into Herathian
>shapechangers.  I wrote that stuff before getting my
>hands on a copy of Talons of Night.  Lo and behold,
>there are shapechanging spiders there too!  These do
>seem to be in a minority however, all being offspring
>of Aketheti (sp?).

Note that the shapechanging spiders in M5: Talons of Night are not Aranea,
but rather a separate group of beings (offspring of Aketheti, as you
mention). In fact, there appear to be three separate groups of arachoids on
the Isle of Dawn- the Planar Spiders, the Aranea (resulting from Planar
Spider/Giant Spider crossbreeding, according to M5), and the Shapechanging
Spiders (Aketheti's Children). Then of course, there are the unintelligent
Giant Spiders. It suggests to me a highly stratified society, where the
Planar Spiders are the rulers and Priests of Arachne Prime (the major
Immortal); the Aranea are of a second caste (being "unpure" degenerate
species); and the shapechangers fill a third and more highly specialized
role (that being the infiltration of the surrounding human communities).
The Giant Spiders are most likely workers and drones, along with any
remaining Phanaton slaves.

Some of this is alluded to in the 1016 Almanac, in the Thothian events, and
I've written an article that's on Shawn's page (http://dnd.starflung.com)
that reveals a Planar Spider's point of view on things.

I agree with the theory that the Aranea in Herath originated on the Isle of
Dawn, and are a splinter "religious" faction- mostly followers of Yehm (I
think that's Korotiku's name there...)- and those that were unsatisfied
with being treated as second class citizens.

-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:49:10 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Magister Mystaros <Mystaros@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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In a message dated 2/4/00 9:27:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jsmill@WANS.NET writes:

<< I agree with the theory that the Aranea in Herath originated on the Isle of
 Dawn, and are a splinter "religious" faction- mostly followers of Yehm (I
 think that's Korotiku's name there...)- and those that were unsatisfied
 with being treated as second class citizens.>>

Well, in my campaign the opposite is true... :)

IMC the Aranea are native inhabitants of the Shadow Coast; the settlements on
the IoD and elsewhere are a result of colonization or religious schism... the
IoD settlement is one major group. But then that is just in my campaign...

James A. Mishler
Magister Mystaros
Check out my website:
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:23:20 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM>
Organization: HotBot Mail  (http://mail.hotbot.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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I'm not sure what side you are on:  mortals seeing immortals as "Gods", or as merely an elightened state of existance?!?

On other comments.

I think Planescape is cool.  I think it would be create to add some elements.  But make sure you get the Companion set.  I think there are a lot of great material in there that is not readily integrated into the more mainstream Planescape.

I think SpellJammer is cool too.  But there have been people that object to SpellJammer philosphy and Mystara.  I hope possibly create a "Mystara" compatible version of SpellJammer that most can accept.  However, I'll probaly convert Mystara to GURPS before I ever get to that project.

On the subject of which gods to use?  I like the Mystara set, but I augment with Mythology material from RW.  The Legends & Lore books works quite well because you have:

  Greek - Milenian
  Norse - Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord Jarldoms
  Egypthian - Nithian
  Chinese - Ochalea
  Japanese - (homegrown internet stuff)
  Finnish - (homegrown internet stuff)
  Native-American - Atruaghin Plateau
  Meso-American - Azcans and other pockets
  Celtic - (forgot the name of the country)

The gods of greyhawk would make good hero-like Immortals on the level of Heracules.  There are a lot of good spells that can be borrowed.  I have seen many of these Greyhawk pantheon duplicated in Forgotten Realms materials.  Forgotten Realms has some good material for resources as well and some base gods like Finnish gods and Egyptian gods.  They also made a variant Set (called Seth) to reflect the Conan like serpent deomon god.


--

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:40:39    The Stalker wrote:
>--
>
>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:47:20    Jeremy Morris wrote:
>>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
>>> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think
>>> of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
>>> understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
>>> like gods.
>>
>>I agree whole-heartedly.  In fact, I've always considered the Immortals to
>>be just like the gods or Powers of other worlds.  Each of the other
>>campaign worlds has gods that were once mortal and gods that have always
>>existed.  Mystara just has more former mortals than the other worlds, at
>>least IMCs.
>
>Actually, I'm a bit relieved by reading this. It's seemed to me for a while that people on this list don't like AD&D gods and all that much. Well, I'm probably already a 'Dupuisian Heretic', so I might as well admit to being a Heretic in other matters as well: I *LIKE* Planescape and Spelljammer and the AD&D multiverse in general. And I prefer to Mystara's Immortals just the same as gods from other campaign settings. I once played a character in a Grayhawk campaign that saw the gods merely as Immortal beings and refused to call them gods - to him there were insects, humans, dragons, and 'gods' in an order of power, i.e., just because the next being is more powerful wouldn't mean that it had sort of moral superiority or had more rights, just that it had more powers. I tend to think of the relationship between Mystarans and Immortals in the same way: those who call them Immortals rather than gods do so because they think of them merely as extremely experienced and thus powerful adventurers!
>    I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings. The only problem is that Mystara clearly has connection to other planes that seem to be unknown elsewhere (Nightmare Dimension, for example) and the odd balance between the spheres. The Old Ones would be another mystery.
>    Comments?
>
>
>   - The Stalker
>
>
>
>Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
>
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>


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:27:42 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Poison and Magic production (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atraughin
              Cultures)
In-Reply-To:  <PABILJEOGBDGBAAA@hotbot.com>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:

> This opens up another discussion...
>
> Magical production.  With so many wizards, it is feasible for some
>wizards to produce magical weapons to equip an army.  The regular +1
>weapons should be easier to produce in quantity.  While +2 and +3 take a

It costs 3,000 GP for just the material cost of a +1 sword.  Labor will
easily double that cost.  (using 1011 AC Poor Wizard's Almanac for the
quote).  It costs too much to arm more than a small honor guard.  You
could hire entire regiments with that kind of money.

> I don't think there are any rules from and D&D variety for
>mass-production of magical weapons.  There should be.
>
Magical items shouldn't be mass-produced.  Even Alphatia, who has the
resources, lacks wizards willing to devote their lives to producting them.
Wizards who can make permanent magical items have better things to do than
to just crank them out.

> Almost every fantasy conquest game you play, there eventually is a
>chance to get such weapons.  In the game MOM (Masters of Magic), units
>produced at a  city with a Alchemy Tower automatically are equipped with
>a magical weapon.  In AOW (Age of Wondors) and Warlords, heros get more
>power weapons.  In Warlords, some weapons can increase the morality or
>add other affects to every units stacked in the leaders army.
>
That's nice, but D&D and AD&D are not wargames.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:40:40 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (long)
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, DM wrote:

> Zephyr (Odin)

Why does Odin have a name that evokes wind?
I don't quite see him as a wind god.

>
> Wardens of Nithia (Immortals who brought the downfall of Nithia after
> Thanatos's corruption and still watch over Nithia's dark secrets in the
> outer world):
> Horon (Ixion) [Head]
> Pflarr (The Gnoll)

But he's not a gnoll.  Shouldn't Ranivorus be 'The Gnoll'?

And what ever happened to the Hollow World Pharoah who became an Immortal
after resolving the civil war in HW Nithia?

> Ylaruam is Barimoor. In this case the only goal of the Followers of
> Al-Fakish may be:
> a) to overthrow the "evil Barimoor", who's trying to plot the downfall of
> the Ylari;
> b) to rally Barimoor and plan the downfall of all Alphatians remaining in
> the Known World.
>
to 'rally' Barimoor?  You mean to recruit him?



John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:59:31 +1100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         shawn stanley <stanles@ALPHALINK.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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At 12:14 4/02/00 -0800, you wrote:
>One thing that I observed that people like about Mystara is that there are
no untouchable "Gods" or "Dieties" as in other campaign worlds.  Gods are
simply Immortals, and Immortality is a state that any PC can eventually
acheive.
>
>However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think of
Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
like gods.

why would they consider them gods if there weren't any actual gods out
there in the first place?  surely our concept of deities is one borne out
of years of cultural conditioning that, that is way things are.  why on
Mystara should they consider their immortals gods, especially when they're
not.  i mean, even in real religions like Christianity people pray to
saints etc and they know that they were once living.  why should it be
different on Mystara.  the only difference is, that I doubt that the
average Mystaran commoner doesn't know anything about the Old Ones and
whatever role they might play in the big picture, and therefore their only
frame of reference for beings worthy of worship are the immortals who they
have no reason to consider as anything but im-mortal.  especially when you
consider places like Ylaruam where it is certainly within recent living
memory for many people that this al-Kalim guy was not always the person
people worshipped.

shawn

shawn stanley
http://dnd.starflung.com

what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me
                         - mightyfew, "i can't wait"

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:56:10 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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In a message dated 2000-02-04 3:32:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
darknerd@HOTBOT.COM writes:

<< Well, how to people know that someone is "1st level" or under?  Do people
go around with the HP painted on their breast plate?  Personally, I would not
use artificial elements like HD into war mechanics.>>

We don't know -- but average soldiers are indeed 1st level or less, and
there is no reason to assume that a particular foe is anything more
until his performance in battle indicates otherwise.

 <<Secondly, I doubt that all the nations have this agreement like our modern
world United Nations.  In medievil times, there were no rules.  Tens and
Hundreds of thousands of people perished in brutality of "noble" leaders.
Personally, I would not evaluate a medievil fantasy world through the eyes of
our contempary societies.  >>

Never heard of the Roman Catholic Church?  It imposed a lot of rules of
warfare in medieval times, some of which were generally respected (such
as those about ransoming noble prisoners) and some of which were
ignored (such as their attempt to ban the crossbow).  Given the mixed
record of our modern United Nations, I would say that they were just
about equal to the modern UN in terms of their effectiveness.  And even
on that basis I think you would be hard put to find medieval atrocities
that were as bad as those committed in the 20th century, let alone worse.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:56:09 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (long)
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In a message dated 2000-02-05 12:40:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

<< On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, DM wrote:

 > Zephyr (Odin)

 Why does Odin have a name that evokes wind?
 I don't quite see him as a wind god.  >>

I should have caught that one.  The Romans provide a real world link
between Odin/Woden and Thoth by way of Mercury/Hermes.  Despite
obvious differences among these different deities, the Romans believed
that they were all the same being.  As near as I can tell, none of these
deities are connected with or related to the Greek wind god Zephyr in
any way.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:14:23 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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In a message dated 2000-02-04 8:48:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes:

<<     I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for
Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer
planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings. The only problem is
that Mystara clearly has connection to other planes that seem to be unknown
elsewhere (Nightmare Dimension, for example) and the odd balance between the
spheres. The Old Ones would be another mystery.  >>

That is precisely why I would put some distance between Mystara and
the Planescape setting -- it has connections to alternate dimensions
that the worlds encompassed in the "standard" AD&D cosmology
lack on the one hand, and it just as clearly seems to lack the connections
to the AD&D Outer Planes that would otherwise be taken for granted on
the other.

However, I have recently come around to the position that Mystara and
other D&D/AD&D game worlds can indeed share the same Ethereal and
Inner Planes with far fewer problems.  If you think of Mystara's Prime Plane
as an extremely huge (perhaps galaxy-sized or even larger) "demi-plane"
similar in many ways to the Ravenloft setting you will get something very
close to the D&D/WotI conception of Mystaran cosmology.

BTW, in this scheme the only difference between the "Immortals" of
Mystara and the "Powers" of other game worlds is their choice of
home planes.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:54:21 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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You can do whatever you like in your own campaign, and no
one would suggest otherwise. The purpose of this list (and please,
if I am wrong about this, let me know) is to discuss the "official
Mystara." That is why I will not give details about how I am adapting
it to my game system.

As to gods in Mystara as opposed to other places...

The Vikings did not refer to Odin, Thor, and company as gods, they
were the Aesir! Why is the word god somehow more than immortal.
In the D&D system an immortal is al lot more than just a powerful
being. There are numerous requirements for worshippers and for the
projects of the immortals. Has anyone ever tried to sit down and think
through what the immortal projects are? I tried, I got a few immortals
finished but had to abandon the project due to lack of time. To a mere
mortal an Immortal is an awesome force! Any who show disrespect can
expect instant annihilation from some of them (particularly within the
temple of one...)

It also states that there are beings even more powerful. I guarantee
that in my campaign you would not simply treat an Immortal as you
suggest! There are no gods in a biblical sense, in Mystara. The Old
Ones are too far removed to have anything to do with normal life.
The Immortals are treated like gods, they are called gods by their
worshippers, they provide miracles and spiritual servants and guidance
through means that mortals cannot understand. They will suffice.

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Immortal Gods


> --
>
> On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:47:20    Jeremy Morris wrote:
> >On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
> >> However, I disagree with the common citizenry of Mystara to not think
> >> of Immortals as "Gods".  Sure we as players and DMs (out of character)
> >> understand Immortality, but the people of Mystara think of these people
> >> like gods.
> >
> >I agree whole-heartedly.  In fact, I've always considered the Immortals
to
> >be just like the gods or Powers of other worlds.  Each of the other
> >campaign worlds has gods that were once mortal and gods that have always
> >existed.  Mystara just has more former mortals than the other worlds, at
> >least IMCs.
>
> Actually, I'm a bit relieved by reading this. It's seemed to me for a
while that people on this list don't like AD&D gods and all that much. Well,
I'm probably already a 'Dupuisian Heretic', so I might as well admit to
being a Heretic in other matters as well: I *LIKE* Planescape and
Spelljammer and the AD&D multiverse in general. And I prefer to Mystara's
Immortals just the same as gods from other campaign settings. I once played
a character in a Grayhawk campaign that saw the gods merely as Immortal
beings and refused to call them gods - to him there were insects, humans,
dragons, and 'gods' in an order of power, i.e., just because the next being
is more powerful wouldn't mean that it had sort of moral superiority or had
more rights, just that it had more powers. I tend to think of the
relationship between Mystarans and Immortals in the same way: those who call
them Immortals rather than gods do so because they think of them merely as
extremely experienced and thus powerful adventurers!
>     I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for
Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer
planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings. The only problem
is that Mystara clearly has connection to other planes that seem to be
unknown elsewhere (Nightmare Dimension, for example) and the odd balance
between the spheres. The Old Ones would be another mystery.
>     Comments?
>
>
>    - The Stalker
>
>
>
> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
>
> ********************************************************************
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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:01:54 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Herve Musseau <hmusseau@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Mystaran Almanac AC 1016 erratum
Comments: To: FMML <mystara_french@listbot.com>
Comments: cc: Shawn Stanley <stanles@alphalink.com.au>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

A file that contains the errata for the Mystaran Almanac is now available on
http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/

This file is available as a separate download (7KB text file), and its content
is not put (at this time) in a new version of the whole almanac (ie the RTF
files). However the HTML version of the almanac that is available on Shawn's
site http://dnd.starflung.com/ directly includes (or will shortly) those
modifications.

Thanks to James and Shawn for pointing out these mistakes.

The content of the erratum file is reprinted below:

---

*** Incorrect cross-references:

Nuwmont 23, AC 1016:  A New Enclave.
cross-reference should read (See Th. 11.) instead of (See Th. 1.).

Klarmont 3, AC 1016:  Paranoia.
cross-reference should read (See Ya. 7, Ya. 13; Kl. 18.) instead of (See Th.
14, Fl. 12, Ya. 7, Ya. 16; Kl. 18.).

Felmont 26 Norwold Elves Meet.
cross-reference should read (See Va.14, Fe. 24; Fy.8, Fy. 13.) instead of (See
Va.14, Fe. 24; Fe. 26, Fy.8, Fy. 13.).

Sviftmont 7, AC 1016:  Nordenhafen Switches Sides.
cross-reference should read (See Am. 9, Am. 28; Sv. 10.) instead of (See Am. 8,
Am. 28; Sv. 10.).

Sviftmont 16, AC 1016:  A Strange Story.
cross-reference should read (See Fe. 25, Am. 22; Sv. 17, Ei. 14.) instead of
(See Fe. 15, Am. 22; Sv. 17, Ei. 14.).

*** Text erratum:

Nuwmont 6, AC 1016:  Trip to the Septahenge.
in "What This Means", "Eirmont AC 1016" should be replaced by "Eirmont AC
1015".

*** Misplaced event:

Sviftmont 18, AC 1016:  Stefan Issues Birthday List.
should appear with the other Sv. 18 events instead of at the end of the month.

*** Missing events:

Sviftmont 26, AC 1016:  Decision for Anaxibius and Stefania.
Location:  Redstone Castle, County of Redstone, Thyatian Empire, Isle of Dawn.
SD
Description:  Delegates of the Countess of Kendach and the Baron of West
Portage meet with Stefania and Anaxibius in Redstone Castle.  They state that
their lords are tired of the disorders that have wracked Thyatis in recent
years, and are going to side with the rebels in hope of getting more autonomy.
They ask the rulers of Redstone to join them in overthrowing Eusebius's
administration on the Isle of Dawn.  Stefania agrees to talk with Thrainkell
Firestorm about the matter, and Redstone mobilizes its forces.  (See Sv.10, Sv.
17; Ei. 9, Ei. 19.)
What This Means:  With the strange disorders in Thothia and recent Alphatian
expansionism, Stefania is less keen on independence.  After studying the terms
of the Treaty of Helskir and the arrangement between Westrourke and Thyatis,
she believes Redstone can get greater autonomy from Eusebius while still
retaining imperial support if war breaks out on the island.  She certainly does
not want to join some Hattian-led revolt at this time, but Redstone does not
want to stand alone, and if Firestorm decides to join the revolt, Stefania will
go along.

Eirmont 9, AC 1016:  Stefania Meets with Firestorm.
Location:  City of Newkirk, Archduchy of Westrourke, Thyatian Empire, Isle of
Dawn.  SD
Description:  Countess Stefania Torion meets with Thrainkell Firestorm to
discuss his opinion of the Crown War in Thyatis.  She finds Firestorm does not
seem to be the bold man she knew.  He says he is content with his status under
Eusebius and has even considered sending re-enforcements to Thyatis City.
Stefania then reveals the plans of Julia Kendach and Periandra Docerius.
Firestorm and Stefania decide it might be wise to discuss the matter further
with them, and send messengers to call a meeting in Redstone.  (See Sv. 17, Sv.
26; Ei. 19.)
What This Means:  The Crown War is causing ripples throughout the empire, and
everyone is being forced to take sides.  Firestorm's personality change is also
evidencing itself again: he seems more content, not the ambitious man he once
was.  This puzzles those who know him, but most decide he is just more mature
now.

Eirmont 10, AC 1016:  Rulers Consult.
Location:  City of Beitung, Exarchate of Ochalea, Thyatian Empire, Isle of
Dawn.  SD
Description:  Nurokidu Nuar of the Pearl Islands arrives in Beitung to discuss
what action, if any, the island nations should take in reaction to the civil
war in Thyatis.  He expects Teng Lin-Dieu to urge caution at the least and
withdrawal from the empire again at the most.  If Teng advises the latter
Nurokidu is ready to propose a federation of some kind to replace the Thyatian
presence throughout the Sea of Dawn.
Teng surprises everyone when he declares that Ochalea will fully back Eusebius
with all its strength, and that the Pearl Islands should do the same.  After a
short closed-door discussion, Nurokidu agrees.  Both nations will dispatch
forces to re-enforce the rightful emperor as soon as they are able.  (See Sv.
1, Sv. 21.)
What This Means:  While Nurokidu was travelling to Beitung, Teng Lin-Dieu
prayed to Koryis for guidance.  He received a series of dreams in response,
filled with disturbing imagery: twin lightning bolts burying themselves into
Thyatis, dividing the land; a black-clad figure cutting down humanity with a
scythe; blood, fire, and darkness filling the streets of Thyatis City,
spreading outwards to cover first the empire, then the lands beyond; Mystara as
a burned out cinder in an endless void of darkness.  Koryis sent this imagery
after piecing together strands of information and arriving at a disturbing
conclusion.  Though things are not quite as apocalyptic as His apocryphal
dreams portray, Koryis knows that if Heinrich wins there will be neither peace
nor prosperity on Mystara, only strife and destruction.  Thus an Immortal of
peace urges His followers to involve themselves in war.
On his trip back to the Pearl Islands Nurokidu receives similar dreams from
Korotiku.  Dreams with different images, but the same message.

Eirmont 19, AC 1016:  Meeting in Redstone.
Location:  Redstone Castle, County of Redstone, Thyatian Empire, Isle of Dawn.
SD
Description:  Thyatian lords gather in Redstone to decide on what policy they
should adopt towards the empire and the War of the Crown.  Julia Kendach and
Periandra Docerius are surprised when Anaxibius suddenly orders his guards to
arrest them.  Both look to Thrainkell Firestorm for support, but he simply
folds his arms.  The rebel lords are dragged off to cells, shouting invective
and complaining of their betrayal.
Meanwhile joint forces of Westrourke and Redstone march to West Portage and
Kendach, quickly assuming control of both regions.  There is little resistance,
as the garrisons of both domains believe they are welcoming allies.  (See Sv.
26, Ei. 9.)
What This Means:  For now those loyal to Eusebius remain in control on the Isle
of Dawn.  Anaxibius and Stefania announce their intention to lead a force to
Thyatis City, to join her brother in fighting the rebels.  Firestorm will
assume control of the situation on the Isle of Dawn in the meantime.
Ironically, this puts him in the position of dominance he always dreamed of
attaining.

Sviftmont 21, AC 1016:  Acquisitions Stand Pat.
as a result of these new events the cross-reference (See Sv. 10, Sv. 17.)
becomes (See Sv. 10, Sv. 17; Ei. 10.).

=====
___________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <hmusseau@yahoo.com>
http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:02:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         jdaly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Atraughin Cultures
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>  <<Secondly, I doubt that all the nations have this agreement like our
modern
> world United Nations.  In medievil times, there were no rules.  Tens and
> Hundreds of thousands of people perished in brutality of "noble" leaders.
> Personally, I would not evaluate a medievil fantasy world through the eyes
of
> our contempary societies.  >>
>
> Never heard of the Roman Catholic Church?  It imposed a lot of rules of
> warfare in medieval times, some of which were generally respected (such
> as those about ransoming noble prisoners) and some of which were
> ignored (such as their attempt to ban the crossbow).  Given the mixed
> record of our modern United Nations, I would say that they were just
> about equal to the modern UN in terms of their effectiveness.  And even
> on that basis I think you would be hard put to find medieval atrocities
> that were as bad as those committed in the 20th century, let alone worse

This is true.  I would even go so far as to say that strongly Catholic
rulers were MORE apt to follow those rules.  If one traced the concept of
"civilized" vs "savage" I'm sure one would find that it goes back through
the Catholic Church and originally from the Roman Empire's view of
themselves vs everyone else.  Not the same view, by any means.  But given
that the Catholic Church was all there was to hold everyone together during
the dark times, it stands to reason.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:09:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      war machine stats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6FB0.50515D20"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Thanks james.  what is stan's web address?  i'm new to the list here. =20

  if anyone else has any stats on the armies of areas of Mystara they've =
developed i would love to hear from you.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6FB0.50515D20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks james.&nbsp; what is stan's =
web=20
address?&nbsp; i'm new to the list here.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp; if anyone else has any stats =
on the=20
armies of areas of Mystara they've developed i would love to hear from=20
you.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6FB0.50515D20--

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:45:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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> frame of reference for beings worthy of worship are the
immortals who they
> have no reason to consider as anything but im-mortal.
especially when you
> consider places like Ylaruam where it is certainly within
recent living
> memory for many people that this al-Kalim guy was not
always the person
> people worshipped.

Good point Stan. I Didn't even consider this, and it makes a
bit of sense :)


Ethan

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:13:58 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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>
> <<     I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for
> Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer
> planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings.
>
Well, personal opinion here, but to me one of the attractions of the
original Immortals schemata (as described in the Gold Box) was that each
had their own individual home plane. The WotI rules changed this somewhat
(lumping bunches in a general "sphere home plane" shared among many, but
still allowing for the possibility of individual home planes). IMO, the
Planescape-type cosmos can accomodate this just by shifting the location of
these, from the Astral to the Ethereal, and making them Demi-Planes.

I personally find this option to fit more within the original spirit of the
D&D Immortals - it's not that I dislike the AD&D cosmos (in fact, it's
fine), I just think ways can be found to preserve the attractive attributes
of both cosmologies.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:20:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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>
> You can do whatever you like in your own campaign, and no
> one would suggest otherwise. The purpose of this list (and please,
> if I am wrong about this, let me know) is to discuss the "official
> Mystara." That is why I will not give details about how I am adapting
> it to my game system.
>
Well, that's a little harsh, IMO. The "purpose" of the list is to discuss
Mystara - "official" or otherwise. Folks add things to their Mystara all
the time and share it with folks on the list (and elsewhere) - otherwise
we'd quickly run out of things to talk about. I do think it's somewhat
appropriate to distinguish between what the setting is as we find it (in
published materiels etc) and how we handle things in our own campaigns -
but I think the folks you were responding too did a good job of that; there
isn't any likelyhood anyone would confuse what they were saying with what
was "official", but people might yet mine their opinions for good and
useful ideas.

Sharing how folks do things in their campaigns often gives useful ideas to
other people, who may not adopt those ideas in their entirety but might
adopt aspects of it. There's no Littonia, Selhomarr, or Hollow Moon per se
in the "official Mystara" but those and other "fan created" places are,
IMO, as Mystaran as anything published. Just my take.

And you should feel free to give details on how you're adapting things into
your own campaign, too, whenever you think they might be helpful or
interesting to others.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:22:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
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> Thanks james.  what is stan's web address?  i'm new to the list here.
>
Oh, sorry. I often forget to include the URL. His site can be found at:

        dnd.starflung.com


>  if anyone else has any stats on the armies of areas of Mystara
> they've developed i would love to hear from you.
>
I have a alternate OOB for Thyatis, which can be found at:

        www.geocities.com/~augustium/Thyatis.html

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:40:49 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         George Hrabovsky <georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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My intent is that people should be able to understand and find valuable
what is used here with only the Rules Cyclopedia, and the original Mystara
material. I do not own Planescape, etc. and see no reason to require them.
Any discussion of these non-canon materials necessarily excludes anyone
who does not own them without lengthy explanations on the part of those
who do. I am not being intentionally harsh, nor would I suggest that
anyone cannot post something here. I am simply suggesting that as a matter
of consideration that we who are adapting Mystara to non-D&D keep
in mind the many people who are content to keep Mystara in the D&D
system. My own game does not use D&D, so I will spare people the
details in the open forum. I will discuss interesting things that I develop
so long as they can be described without specific reference to game
details that others are not likely to possess.

Sorry, I came across as being harsh,

    George

----- Original Message -----
From: James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Immortal Gods


> >
> > You can do whatever you like in your own campaign, and no
> > one would suggest otherwise. The purpose of this list (and please,
> > if I am wrong about this, let me know) is to discuss the "official
> > Mystara." That is why I will not give details about how I am adapting
> > it to my game system.
> >
> Well, that's a little harsh, IMO. The "purpose" of the list is to discuss
> Mystara - "official" or otherwise. Folks add things to their Mystara all
> the time and share it with folks on the list (and elsewhere) - otherwise
> we'd quickly run out of things to talk about. I do think it's somewhat
> appropriate to distinguish between what the setting is as we find it (in
> published materiels etc) and how we handle things in our own campaigns -
> but I think the folks you were responding too did a good job of that;
there
> isn't any likelyhood anyone would confuse what they were saying with what
> was "official", but people might yet mine their opinions for good and
> useful ideas.
>
> Sharing how folks do things in their campaigns often gives useful ideas to
> other people, who may not adopt those ideas in their entirety but might
> adopt aspects of it. There's no Littonia, Selhomarr, or Hollow Moon per se
> in the "official Mystara" but those and other "fan created" places are,
> IMO, as Mystaran as anything published. Just my take.
>
> And you should feel free to give details on how you're adapting things
into
> your own campaign, too, whenever you think they might be helpful or
> interesting to others.
>
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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:30:08 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Jeremy Morris <morris@MCS.KENT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
In-Reply-To:  <200002051616.LAA00396@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net>
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote:

> >
> > <<     I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for
> > Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer
> > planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings.
> >

<snip>

> still allowing for the possibility of individual home planes). IMO, the
> Planescape-type cosmos can accomodate this just by shifting the location of
> these, from the Astral to the Ethereal, and making them Demi-Planes.

Actually, you don't even have to do this.  You can leave the Immortal Home
Planes out in the Astral and still use the Planescape cosmology.  The
Planescape stuff hints that there are more Outer Planes than the ones on
the Great Ring, so they can fit out there.  Who says that the planer
inhabitants of the Great Ring really know what's going on out there - they
may call the Primes Clueless, but that doesn't mean that they know the
real score either.

Setting it up this way, I imagine some "clusters" of planes organized
around concepts or other ideals that are connected together, with a few
stray planes out on their own floating in the Astral.  The Great Ring
would be one "cluster" with no direct connections to any other Outer
Planes.  There could be multiple clusters of Immortal Home Planes out
there too, maybe clustered based on Sphere.  So there would be a cluster
of Entropic planes all connected to Pyts, (forming another Ring, or maybe
more like a web), and a cluster of Thought planes all connected to Mirage.

Why do it this way?  Well, for one I think it makes the Outer Planes more
interesting.  I like the Planescape stuff, but I also like the weird Outer
Planes that show up in the old D&D stuff.  And while like James suggested
you could move them into the Ethereal plane instead, I think something
gets lost there.  Specifically, I think that the wonder if the Outer
Planes is lost if you know that there are only 13 of them and you know
them all by name and you know their "alignments."  With infinite possible
Outer Planes, some of that mystery is retained.  (And, you can still use
both the old D&D modules and the newer Planescape modules for adventure
ideas.  Maximizing my idea utilization is always a good thing in my book).

In addition, if you go the other way and force the Immortals into the
confines of the Planescape cosmology, you lose something.  WoTC put a list
of some of the Immortal's Home Planes into the back of Warriors of Heaven,
and they just seemed off.  I like the idea of each Immortal having his or
her own plane that they can manipulate at will, and trying to pigeonhole
them into the Planescape cosmology comes up with some weird Home Planes
(like Halav on Ysgard, what's up with that?)

Finally, I think the Planescape setting would be really detrimental to an
Immortal-level game.  Without the infinite planes to explore, I really
think something would be lost.

Anyway, just my opinions.  Let me know what you think,

Jeremy

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:38:27 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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In a message dated 2000-02-05 11:43:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU writes:

<< My intent is that people should be able to understand and find valuable
 what is used here with only the Rules Cyclopedia, and the original Mystara
 material. I do not own Planescape, etc. and see no reason to require them.
 Any discussion of these non-canon materials necessarily excludes anyone
 who does not own them without lengthy explanations on the part of those
 who do. I am not being intentionally harsh, nor would I suggest that
 anyone cannot post something here. I am simply suggesting that as a matter
 of consideration that we who are adapting Mystara to non-D&D keep
 in mind the many people who are content to keep Mystara in the D&D
 system. >>

But my intent in bringing up such things as Planescape is an attempt to
keep the "official" Mystara from becoming "Planescapized".  Here are
some of the trends that I am trying to reverse:

1) The Outer Planes arrangement of the "standard" or "Planescape"
setting is based on the 3x3 alignment system.  As a result, any world
that is conneceted to this set of planes must use the Good-Evil axis
as well as the Law-Chaos axis of alignment.  Anyone using the D&D
rules would, I think, prefer to ignore the Good-Evil axis as much as
possible.

2) If the Mystaran Immortals are dispersed through the AD&D Outer
Planes, then they interact freely with the Powers of other settings.
This change would completely upset the balance of power among
them, as in WotI and other sources they usually deal with one another
and not with outside Powers.

3) Finally, in the "standard" cosmology Mystara would be contained in
its own crystal sphere that is theoretically accessible by spelljammer
ships from other worlds.  On this point, at least, the evidence is am-
biguous.  Certainly there are differences in the nature of the Mystara
solar system from the "standard" systems of the Spelljammer setting.
It is far less clear whether Mystara is contained within a crystal sphere,
as we have no cases where it is known for certain that anyone entered
or left the Mystara system by pure space travel, with no interplanar or
interdimensional transitions involved.  Still, forcing Mystara into the
"standard" Prime Material Plane would force the issue and close off the
option of Mystara having access to infinite space much as the real world
solar system does.

Finally, as 3E develops, it seems likely that material from various game
worlds will be added to the official core.  The base rules will apparently
assume the world of Greyhawk as the standard, with its cosmology as
the default (although others may be designed, of course).  I recall seeing
a suggestion that the ultimate publication of mass combat rules might be
the signal for a revival of Cerilia (the Birthright setting), and I am hoping
that the introduction of material on the Planes and the Powers will provide
a similar opening for Mystara.  At the same time, I want to avoid twisting
Mystara to fit the standard Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms cosmology when
there are alternatives that can preserve the unique features of all settings.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:05:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Cosmology (was: Immortal Gods)
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> In a message dated 2000-02-05 11:43:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU writes:
>
> << My intent is that people should be able to understand and find valuable
>  what is used here with only the Rules Cyclopedia, and the original Mystara
>  material. I do not own Planescape, etc. and see no reason to require them.
>  Any discussion of these non-canon materials necessarily excludes anyone
>  who does not own them without lengthy explanations on the part of those
>  who do. I am not being intentionally harsh, nor would I suggest that
>  anyone cannot post something here. I am simply suggesting that as a matter
>  of consideration that we who are adapting Mystara to non-D&D keep
>  in mind the many people who are content to keep Mystara in the D&D
>  system. >>
>
Maybe the Planescape cosmology doesn't quite fit, but the design theory does.
Before they wrote PS the planes were pretty dull places, although much of the
structure was established in the Manual of the Planes in a drier form.
Planescape took that system and made it COOL. I'm sorry, but Planescape is very
cool, even if you don't like how it's designed.

That is what I think Mystara needs, is a refit of it's cosmology and Immortal
design to open up the potential, and make it fully compatible with 3E. And if
you think the system is fine and doesn't need changing, then just play as you
have. There won't be any published products again anyway.

IronWolf

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:40:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Damon Alexander Brown <habgyp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Poison (was: Atraughin Cultures)
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--- Darth Darknerd <darknerd@HOTBOT.COM> wrote:
>
> I can agree with this, but this is rather a AD&D
> metric which is not all that realistic in most
> senses.  Nevertheless, a simple slash of a sword
> will not kill a person unless the opponent rolled
> low on HP and the weapon DMG rolled high.  Most
> cases one slash should be enough.

  I must not be misunderstanding what you are saying.
The way I see it, an average human in Mystara (NM or
1st level) would have no more than 11 hp (max 1d8+3
for high CON), while most would have closer to 4 or 5
hp. A single strike from a normal sword (1d8) would
then indeed be likely to kill an average person...
poison or no. This, IMO, is relatively realistic.

> I'm not sure if I agree that everyone in medieval
> times has a natural sense of moralities.  People
> were butchering, raping, torturing and enslaving
> each other left and right.  One moment, a person is
> a villain, only to be a saint the next moment, and
> then a villain by next winter.  Roles shift,
> moralities are undefined.

  Agreed that many of your examples are indeed
atrocities from an ethical perspective. However, they
were often considered "moraly just" by those
committing them. It was considered acceptable, because
the victim was "evil".
  Thus we get into the difference between "Ethics"
(right vs. wrong) and "Morality" (good vs. evil).
Ethics are fairly universal. Most societies (though
certainly not all) have a similar ethic code: murder,
assault, dishonesty, and theft are not generally
acceptable. OTH, one culture's morality may addend
that by saying that such things are acceptable *if*
perpetrated against those who are considered "evil". I
think this describes your above statement.
  My point in all this is that most cultures have
considered the use of poison unacceptable from *both*
an ethical and moral standpoint.

> Just look at the interesting folks like Byzantium
> Empire, which butchered 100,000 Pualines because
> they interpreted the Bible differently.  Or the
> Magyars or "Horsemen of Apoclypse" which butchered
> thousands of people, such as on raid where 50,000
> Italians were annihilated.  Then there are the
> Viking raiders.  The more organized nations, most
> people were restricted to never leave their land and
> always work for the Baron, sometimes for free using
> one's one equipment, like in the lands of Dacia.

  Once again, I believe this supports my point. Even
though the above examples encompass some barbaric
behavior, poison was considered "savage" even by
*their* standards.

-Damon

=====
"He who laughs last... thinks slowest."
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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 02:33:44 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods, Spelljammer, and Planes
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--

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:23:20    Darth Darknerd wrote:
>I'm not sure what side you are on:  mortals seeing immortals as "Gods", or as merely an elightened state of existance?!?
>

It would depend on the people and culture in question IMO. The Ylari, for example, are rather fanatically devoted to Al-Kalim (even more so now after the AC 1015 Almanac), so they would see him as a true God. Similarly, the northmen of the Northern Reaches would see Odin and Thor, etc. as gods, and the Heldannic Knights would see Vanya as a god.

Glantrians (and most Alphatians I guess), however, would see all these Immortals beings just as superior beings, nothing more. The Glantrians, for example, shun all Immortals but Rad, but they know that they are real and that they exist - there are clerics following those Immortals who would real magic, which would prove the Immortal's power. In fact, the Glantrians could just call clerics madman if they didn't have magic - but the fact that clerics do have magic makes them dangerous to the Glantrian magocracy, at least in some Glantrians' eyes it would seem.

Is that more enlightening?

>On other comments.
>
>I think Planescape is cool.  I think it would be create to add some elements.  But make sure you get the Companion set.  I think there are a lot of great material in there that is not readily integrated into the more mainstream Planescape.
>

The only problem I have with Planescape is that at first basing the gods home planes on alignments [yuck!] makes sense, but only until you start applying it to a pantheon. For example, Asgard/Ysgard and Valhalla is placed in the Chaotic Good part of the scale, so how can Tyr live there? And if he doesn't, then you've broken up the pantheon - a problem that AD&D deals with by not addressing it, which is rather disappointing. Personally I just throw out the alignments and leave the planes where they are, and if anyone asks they're placed there based on the 'cultural mindset'. Not a good explanation, but it's worked so far.


>I think SpellJammer is cool too.  But there have been people that object to SpellJammer philosphy and Mystara.  I hope possibly create a "Mystara" compatible version of SpellJammer that most can accept.  However, I'll probaly convert Mystara to GURPS before I ever get to that project.
>

I placed Mystara within it's own crystal sphere. I applied all the laws of space from Champions of Mystara to it's wildspace, though, except how gravity works (which still follows Spelljammer rules) - the Spelljammer rules does allow for crystal spheres that are extremely cold and without air as Mystara's wildspace is. For that reason I've called the crystal sphere 'The Void' rather than Mystaraspace. IMC the reason why it's not mentioned among the known spheres is that its extremely hostile environment would see outside travellers either die when they entered the sphere or else escape immediately and then warned organizations like 'The Seekers' about the hostile nature of 'The Void'.


>On the subject of which gods to use?  I like the Mystara set, but I augment with Mythology material from RW.  The Legends & Lore books works quite well because you have:
>
>  Greek - Milenian
>  Norse - Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord Jarldoms
>  Egypthian - Nithian
>  Chinese - Ochalea
>  Japanese - (homegrown internet stuff)
>  Finnish - (homegrown internet stuff)
>  Native-American - Atruaghin Plateau
>  Meso-American - Azcans and other pockets
>  Celtic - (forgot the name of the country)
>
>The gods of greyhawk would make good hero-like Immortals on the level of Heracules.  There are a lot of good spells that can be borrowed.  I have seen many of these Greyhawk pantheon duplicated in Forgotten Realms materials.  Forgotten Realms has some good material for resources as well and some base gods like Finnish gods and Egyptian gods.  They also made a variant Set (called Seth) to reflect the Conan like serpent deomon god.
>

Well I play *ONLY* with the Mystara Immortals (though I augment the descriptions of the norse ones a bit with their Legends and Lore counterparts). IMHO there are *far* more than enough Immortals on Mystara already!

   - The Stalker



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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:00:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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At 09:49 PM 2/4/00 EST, you wrote:
>
>IMC the Aranea are native inhabitants of the Shadow Coast; the settlements
>on the IoD and elsewhere are a result of colonization or religious
>schism... the IoD settlement is one major group. But then that is just in
>my campaign...

I assume you mean Savage Coast, as opposed to Shadow Coast (the southern
region of the IoD)? :)

Normally, I'd be inclined to go with that theory myself, given the
information in the Red Steel set, but the information in M5 is certainly
contradictory to that, and given the origins of the Aranea as purported by
that module, I'm inclined to take the route I described, wherein the IoD is
the originating nation and the SC is the splinter group.

There is definitely leeway, though, for either point.


-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 02:58:34 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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--

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:14:23    David Knott wrote:
>In a message dated 2000-02-04 8:48:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes:
>
><<     I don't see why we would need separate dimensions or planes for
>Mystara's Immortals, since IMHO they can inhabit the Planescape's outer
>planes just as well as gods from other campaign settings. The only problem is
>that Mystara clearly has connection to other planes that seem to be unknown
>elsewhere (Nightmare Dimension, for example) and the odd balance between the
>spheres. The Old Ones would be another mystery.  >>
>
>That is precisely why I would put some distance between Mystara and
>the Planescape setting -- it has connections to alternate dimensions
>that the worlds encompassed in the "standard" AD&D cosmology
>lack on the one hand, and it just as clearly seems to lack the connections
>to the AD&D Outer Planes that would otherwise be taken for granted on
>the other.
>

Well, as I've just explained, I've put Mystara in a crystal sphere, so that Spelljamming is possible, but kept its environment so hostile that few will be able to travel it - including Mystarans. For this reason, it would make sense to me that Mystarans would generally explore the planes more than Spelljammer's wildspace/phlogiston, which would lead them to discover more planes than their colleagues of other world. Also, the Old Alphatians (the ancestors of both the Alphatians and the Glantrian Flaems) would have some knowledge of the planes - the Alphatians from having so many archmages and the Flaems from their thousand-year trek across the planes. So the special 'Mystaran' planes could be accessed by people from other campaign settings, except that they haven't discovered them yet and, more practically, I don't play them! ;) I don't care too much about the spheres of the Immortals (Time, Energy, Matter, Thought, and Entropy), but perhaps Mystarans just know more about how to achieve Immortality because they have a greater tradition (other campaigns don't have rules for ascension - not that I care because I don't play Immortals campaigns!). The Old Ones might be just as applicable to other campaigns (just think of Lord Ao and the superiors it was hinted at that he had in FR's dreaded Avatar trilogy).

>However, I have recently come around to the position that Mystara and
>other D&D/AD&D game worlds can indeed share the same Ethereal and
>Inner Planes with far fewer problems.  If you think of Mystara's Prime Plane
>as an extremely huge (perhaps galaxy-sized or even larger) "demi-plane"
>similar in many ways to the Ravenloft setting you will get something very
>close to the D&D/WotI conception of Mystaran cosmology.

It could certainly work, but as someone has commented before, it would somehow make Mystara 'inferior' to other worlds. I wouldn't use that option IMC.

>
>BTW, in this scheme the only difference between the "Immortals" of
>Mystara and the "Powers" of other game worlds is their choice of
>home planes.

Agreed. I just don't see why they can't live in the outer planes like everyone else. It certainly wouldn't stop them from having a special 'Immortal city' near Mystara - I mean, they're gods and can do pretty much what they like. One reason why they would do that might be because Mystara is of special interest to them because more Immortals come from this world than from any other. I think the 'Ixion vs. Rad' debate at the beginning of WotI even hinted at this IIRC.

   - The Stalker



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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:30:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Poison and Magic production (was Re: [MYSTARA] Atraughin
              Cultures)
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.4.10.10002042316580.5040-100000@falcon.cc.ukans.e du>
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At 11:27 PM 2/4/00 -0600, Ranma Al'Thor" <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU> wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Darth Darknerd wrote:
>
>> I don't think there are any rules from and D&D variety for
>>mass-production of magical weapons.  There should be.
>>
>Magical items shouldn't be mass-produced.  Even Alphatia, who has the
>resources, lacks wizards willing to devote their lives to producting them.
>Wizards who can make permanent magical items have better things to do than
>to just crank them out.

I think that the Blackmoor era people devised some means of mass-producing
magical items/weaponry (their "technomancy, which, IMO was more magical
than technical). Look what happened to them. Shouldn't cut corners with
things like that...


-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:38:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
In-Reply-To:  <200002051616.LAA00396@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net>
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At 10:13 AM 2/5/00 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I personally find this option to fit more within the original spirit of the
>D&D Immortals - it's not that I dislike the AD&D cosmos (in fact, it's
>fine), I just think ways can be found to preserve the attractive attributes
>of both cosmologies.

In fact, all of this fitting of cosmologies into one another will become
irrelevant with the 3rd Edition setting, since 3rd Edition will endorse no
particular cosmology within the framework of the core rules.

In other words, unlike say, 2nd Edition AD&D which has a planar cosmology
that interconnects all of the AD&D worlds, but doesn't seem to accomodate
the Mystara universe, 3rd Edition is doing away with any "general"
cosmology. According to official posts on the topic, they will no longer
produce "exclusively" Planescape or Ravenloft type settings, and are
planning on releasing a new "Manual of the Planes" type product that will
provide rules for creating an individual cosmology (and will probably use
the current Astral-Ethereal-Elemental-QuasiElemental-Prime only as an
illustative example of how one *could* construct a cosmology).

Thus, we can once more go back to the original cosmology of the
Red/Blue/Aqua/Black and Gold box sets for a Mystara cosmology.
-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:49:08 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Historical Dead NPCs of Mystara, part II (long)
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Hrmph! A while ago I sent a long list of dead NPCs IMC to this list. These were NPCs that I'd created because we don't have enough historical people in Mystara's past. My general idea was that people should come up with one or two themselves, but so far nothing!

Well, I won't give up so easily - I'm much too stubbo.. ahem, PERSISTENT for that ;)

So here are a few NPCs from my Mystara's history. Sorry, still no Glantrians. Once again, the references to powerful swords in the descriptions are to swords I made IMC, so these are the people who wielded them - just so that you know if I ever post those swords on this list.

Now, seriously, please comment on these NPCs, and *PLEASE* try to post one or two yourself - you don't need stats or anything, just a name and a few ideas, because they are all dead anyway. Having such a database of historical NPCs would rather enrich all of our campaigns IMHO, so please join in on the fun if you have ideas - if even I can come up with some it can't be all *that* difficult, can it? ;)

------------------------------------

        Hervard the Hunter, Ranger of the North (presumed dead). Hervard was an exceptionally secretive ranger northern lands such as Wendar and Norwold. There are many legends of how he saved various villages from attacks by monsters such as giants, dragons, or orcs or other humanoids. Some legends say that he helped repel several invasions from Denagoth against Wendar. However, it is possible that these deeds were performed by different people, as Hervard must otherwise have used many different names in order to conceal his identity, though many sages speculate that that is exactly what he did. Generally, there is a great dispute between human and elven scholars about whether Hervard was a human or an elf, as he makes significant appearances in the history of both species. Though some human scholars have offered the consensus that Hervard was a half-elf, the theory is utterly denied by elven scholars. Nobody actually knowns whether Hervard is actually dead, though it is generally assumed as it is many decades since he made any known appearances.

        Holly Journeyfoot, Halfling Heroine of Ierendi (dead). Holly Journeyfoot was a halfling thief who was imprisoned in the Thytian penal colony on the main island of the later Kingdom of Ierendi. She became a heroine of Ierendi's history when she helped drive out the Thyatians who have invaded Ierendi and claimed it as a part of the Empire. Though the greatest part of Ierendi's victory over Thyatis can probably be attributed to the wizards of Honor Island, it is still heroes like Mad Cleeg and Holly Journeyfoot who are best remembered by the common people of Ierendi.

        Francino Markone, Darokinian Warrior (dead). Francino was a military man in Darokin's armies around 500 AC. During his life he had to fight many monsters in Darokin, and had to help repel orcish invasions on many occasions. It also means that he fought in the brief and fruitless Elfwar against Alfheim, though he was lucky to survive it. Markone wielded a rapier, which he then passed onto his son, Thurio Markone.

        Thurio Markone, Darokinian Warrior (dead). Thurio was the son of Francino Markone, and led a life much like his father's about three or four decades later, and as such was a military man for most of his life. Around 560 AC when the Shadow Elves invaded Alfheim, Thurio led a legion of soldier to help the elves repel the invaders. Thurio's rapier was revealed to be a powerful weapon at the time, for it was very effective and a great threat to the Shadow Elven invaders, which has caused some sages to speculate that it may have been found by Thurio's father, Francino Markone, and the passed on to the son, but this is mere theory. Unfortunately, the Shadow Elves quickly realized the threat of Thurio's sword, and they quickly concentrated their attacks on him and thus killed him so that his sword would no longer threaten them.

        Mustafa abd-Ali, Ylari Gladiator in Thyatis (dead). Mustafa was an Ylari who was captured by Thyatians during a border skirmish in 953 AC. His Thyatian captors were impressed by his fighting prowess and brought him to Thyatis City where they allowed him to keep his gear and made him a gladiator. In the arena, Mustafa sometimes had opportunities to fight the only people he hated more than the Thyatians, the Alphatians. Mustafa hated the Alphatians even more than the Thyatians because he believed that they had more seriously injured his homeland than the Thyatians ever could, and because of the dubious but persistent rumors of Alphatian wizards who were still active in Ylaruam. Naturally, Mustafa's great hatred of Alphatians and desire to fight Alphatian warriors whenever he could, was hardly a thing that made him unpopular in Thyatis City, quite the contrary! The Thyatians gave him as many opportunities as they could to fight captured Alphatians, and Mustafa killed many Alphatians with his sword, which is why the sword was renamed "Alphatiacus" (slayer of Alphatians). Sages have later speculated about Mustafa's scimitar, as he performed great feats with his sword. In 959 AC, the Alphatians attacked Thyatis, entered Thyatis City driving away the Thyatian legions and killing the Emperor. At this time, one of the gladiators, Thincol the Brave (the later Emperor of Thyatis), organized the gladiators and remaining Thyatian troops, and mounted a counterattack which drove the Alphatians back out of the city. Mustafa fought at Thincol's side during the incident, though he did not survive the battle, and the sword "Alphatiacus" was lost.

        Sven, son of Cnute, Warrior of Ostland (dead). Sven was the second son of King Cnute of Ostland. As he grew up he realized that if he wanted to rule, he would either have to fight his older brother for the throne, or claim lands for himself. Since he hardly hated his brother, Sven decided to settle the later Vestland and Soderfjord by traveling there with many settlers and start fighting the humanoids who already occupied the lands. It was fortunate for Sven that his younger brother, Hrafn, decided to come with him, for although Sven was a good fighter, Hrafn turned out to be a warrior of legendary proportions, who claimed little or nothing for his services. Though the land claimed by Sven and Hrafn was officially a part of Ostland, Sven had the unofficial power of a king over the territory for the remainder of his life.

        Hadric Telmar, Merchant Prince from the Minrothad Guilds (dead). As a merchant prince of Minrothad, Telmar was an experienced wizard, and is known to have encountered several unusual creatures during his sea voyages. The most famous encounter with such beings was in the year 999 AC when his ship was attacked by a dragon turtle. Fighting for his life and the lives of his crew, Telmar actually succeeded in defeating the monster, though it is uncertain whether he managed to kill it. But Telmar did save the life of his crew and lived to tell the tale. Telmar and his entire ship and crew sadly disappeared in 1002 AC and has not been heard of since.

-----------------------------------------

Now don't forget: Try to add a few NPCs yourself, if you think you're up to it - I, for one, would appreciate the effort.


  - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:00:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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> Thus, we can once more go back to the original cosmology
of the
> Red/Blue/Aqua/Black and Gold box sets for a Mystara
cosmology.

At the risk of being a "me-too" post:

There has been a lot of discussion on the list about
different Cosmologies, and it does seem to be completely
rendered moot if the Planescape and SpellJammer stuff is
removed from the core books (yay!) Personally I don't see a
problem with just leaving the Mystaran Cosmology "as is"  in
3e.  The only problems would arise with the particular power
stucture of PCs in 3e, as someone mentioned on the 3e list.

But... If 3e is as modular as it is made out to be, we can
simply change the rules :)


Ethan

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Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:51 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Site Update: Campaign Log Added
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Greetings!

My campaign log for my session this Friday is now up. I have also done some
cosmetic changes here and there, but not much. I am planning to start putting up
stories soon, but I want to make sure I do a better job of it than I usually do,
so I can't say when.

Feedback is very much appreciated, good or bad. :)

IronWolf

Tales from the Known World
http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 00:04:21 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Magister Mystaros <Mystaros@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
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In a message dated 2/5/00 8:55:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jsmill@WANS.NET writes:

<< I assume you mean Savage Coast, as opposed to Shadow Coast (the southern
 region of the IoD)? :) >>

D'oh! Yeah, that's what I meant :)

James A. Mishler
Magister Mystaros
Check out my website:
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 02:07:06 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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In a message dated 2000-02-05 8:59:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM writes:

<< It could certainly work, but as someone has commented before, it would
somehow make Mystara 'inferior' to other worlds. I wouldn't use that option
IMC. >>

It is all a matter of the terminology used.  The connection of Mystara to
the AD&D multiverse would be exactly the same as that of the demi-plane
of Ravenloft to the rest of the multi-verse -- but we certainly would have
reason to believe that the plane containing Mystara is many times larger
than Ravenloft.  The lack of a direct connection to the AD&D Outer Planes
would be compensated for by a closer link to the Nightmare, Vortex, and
perhaps other alternate dimensions.

How Mystara is viewed would be a matter of perspective.  A native of Sigil
would view Mystara (if he knew its proper location) as being an "out of touch
demi-plane".  A native of the Ethereal plane would see it as the largest plane
in the "Dark Prime" meta-plane, at least as important as any of the crystal
spheres contained in the phlogiston of the "Light Prime" demi-plane.  To
anyone outside the "Normal" dimension, however, Mystara would be the
most important part of the "Normal" dimension, as it is the part most
accessible to outsiders from the alternate dimensions as well as the most
likely source of "Normal" visitors to those dimensions.

For those who want to use Planescape creatures in the Mystara setting,
there is ample precedent -- archons, for example, are known to exist in the
Outer Planes of both settings.  However, I would suggest that the Mystaran
versions of these "Warriors of Heaven" would be located in any non-Entropic
planes and would (in accordance with similarly loosened restrictions for
mortals) not be as strongly restricted in terms of alignment and behavior.

<< Agreed. I just don't see why they can't live in the outer planes like
everyone else.>>

The main problem I see is that putting the Mystaran Immortals on the same
Outer Planes with the Powers of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms is
that they would all then be part of the same power structure, which would
drastically alter the balance of power among the various Immortals.  It would
also raise a number of thorny questions, such as how to assign alignments
(and thus home planes) to all of the Mystaran Immortals, or (alternatively)
how to assign Spheres to all of the Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms Powers.

While I certainly have no problem with the Mystaran Immortals interacting
with worlds other than Mystara, Oerth and Toril along with their associated
Outer Planes have some real incompatibilities.  In particular, I would
prefer to retain the option of ignoring the Good/Evil alignment component
-- and that just cannot be done on a world subject to the influences of
the AD&D Outer Planes.

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 02:02:02 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      dead npc's of mystara's past
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well Stalker, i have a couple of old characters and npc's that i will =
contribute.


Igorvich, fighter of Traldara, born in Luln.  Igorvich was known for his =
big heart and hatred of vampyr.  That was until a band of "good" vampyr =
saved him and his friends from Baron Ludwig.  Seeing the error of blind =
hatred Igorvich began defending the conclaves of "good" vampyr in =
western Karamikios.  He still slew the evil of the land, but honored the =
good.  Alas Igorvich was slain investigating ruins near the 5 shires =
border.  It was a hide out for the iron ring.  His legacy has helped to =
forstall many of the Traldaran-Thyatian conflicts in Luln. =20

Marlowe Huzar  A tangore by birth on Skothar,  Marlowe got lost in the =
wilderness while young.  found and nursed back from starvation by =
mineans he joined one of he pirate bands. while with the pirates he =
manifested an afinity for magic.  during a raid on Bellirisia he was =
captured.  The Alphatian magistrate saw the potinial in Marlowe and =
being a kindly old magician took marlowe on as an appretice.  Many years =
of study and quest for materials led Marlowe and the kindly mage's =
henchmen around the known world.  On an adventure on the isle of dawn =
marlowe met his doom fighting the areana. =20

A villian of my early campaigne (about 15 years ago)  Yirgard (a frost =
giant mage).  Became imfamous for gathering a band of frost giants from =
the Altan teppes and agmenting his band with wandering hobgoblin tribes. =
 He sacked theshold and burned many of the hamlets in the area.  He led =
the pursing agents of the Duke(at the time) on a grand chase (about 4 =
months) before his band was soundly defeated by a group of adventures.  =
Yirgard escaped and caused havoc off and on in Karamikios and darokin =
for many years before the same groupe of adventures corned and slew him =
near the lost valley.

I hope you like these and i will post more as i dig them up.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Well Stalker, i have a couple of old =
characters and=20
npc's that i will contribute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Igorvich, fighter of Traldara, born in Luln.&nbsp; Igorvich was =
known for=20
his big heart and hatred of vampyr.&nbsp; That was until a band of=20
&quot;good&quot; vampyr saved him and his friends from Baron =
Ludwig.&nbsp;=20
Seeing the error of blind hatred Igorvich began defending the conclaves =
of=20
&quot;good&quot; vampyr in western Karamikios.&nbsp; He still slew the =
evil of=20
the land, but honored the good.&nbsp; Alas Igorvich was slain =
investigating=20
ruins near the 5 shires border.&nbsp; It was a hide out for the iron =
ring.&nbsp;=20
His legacy has helped to forstall many of the Traldaran-Thyatian =
conflicts in=20
Luln.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Marlowe Huzar&nbsp; A tangore by birth on Skothar,&nbsp; Marlowe =
got lost=20
in the wilderness while young.&nbsp; found and nursed back from =
starvation by=20
mineans he joined one of he pirate bands. while with the pirates he =
manifested=20
an afinity for magic.&nbsp; during a raid on Bellirisia he was =
captured.&nbsp;=20
The Alphatian magistrate saw the potinial in Marlowe and being a kindly =
old=20
magician took marlowe on as an appretice.&nbsp; Many years of study and =
quest=20
for materials led Marlowe and the kindly mage's henchmen around the =
known=20
world.&nbsp; On an adventure on the isle of dawn marlowe met his doom =
fighting=20
the areana.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A villian of my early campaigne =
(about 15 years=20
ago)&nbsp; Yirgard (a frost giant mage).&nbsp; Became imfamous for =
gathering a=20
band of frost giants from the Altan teppes and agmenting his band with =
wandering=20
hobgoblin tribes.&nbsp; He sacked theshold and burned many of the =
hamlets in the=20
area.&nbsp; He led the pursing agents of the Duke(at the time) on a =
grand chase=20
(about 4 months) before his band was soundly defeated by a group of=20
adventures.&nbsp; Yirgard escaped and caused havoc off and on in =
Karamikios and=20
darokin for many years before the same groupe of adventures corned and =
slew him=20
near the lost valley.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I hope you like these and i will =
post more as i=20
dig them up.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF7046.28BF23A0--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:15:36 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Caroletti <Scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Other Historical Dead NPC's
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Here are a couple of HDNPC from my campaign.

Slyzaar Mantreikon (AD&D Bard 12, N)
Karameikan adventurer. He was one of the three adventurers to find
casually the Pyramid of Cynidicea. After the dangerous experience in the

Pyramid, he returned to his home city Specularum and settled down to
spend
the rest of his life working as a professional musician, but was killed
after
an incident in the Black Lily at the young age of 32.
[More on Slyzaar Mantreikon and the Pyramid of Cynidicea in the
upcoming MML file: The Legend of Zargon, the Great Lizard]

Antares (Eulan Bannaker) (AD&D Cleric 14, LN(E))
Eulan Bannaker was born in Tel Akbir in 973. He became a cleric of
Opal and spent several years adventuring. In 996 he and his company,
known as the Company of the Seven Stars (thus the nickname Antares),
discovered a secret sect that revered the Great Lizard Sark'Hn, a
mysterious being known to dwell in an ancient temple that they wanted to

free to lead them to savage destruction. The Seven Stars managed to kill

most of the cultists, but someone survived and reformed the order in
1002.
By that year, five of the Seven Stars had lost contact with the other
four,
so Antares and his friend Altair were the only ones to remain in charge
of
the slaying of the sect. Antares contacted a small group of adventurers
to
help him, and they finally killed the sect's members in an epic battle
in 1003.
Probably, though, not even that time all were killed, because Antares'
head and hands were sent to Altair in 1008, with a message written with
his blood that told: 'Now free'.

Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain of the XXth Cohort
Port Lucinius, Thyatis

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:28:17 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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Andrew Theisen wrote:
>
> Thus, we can once more go back to the original cosmology of the
> Red/Blue/Aqua/Black and Gold box sets for a Mystara cosmology.

Why not write something better than those?

IronWolf

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:40:57 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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David Knott wrote:
>
> It is all a matter of the terminology used.  The connection of Mystara to
> the AD&D multiverse would be exactly the same as that of the demi-plane
> of Ravenloft to the rest of the multi-verse -- but we certainly would have
> reason to believe that the plane containing Mystara is many times larger
> than Ravenloft.  The lack of a direct connection to the AD&D Outer Planes
> would be compensated for by a closer link to the Nightmare, Vortex, and
> perhaps other alternate dimensions.

I think this is needlessly complex. There's no hard rule demanding that Mystara
can't just exist in the Prime Material with everything else. If you don't want
crystal spheres and Spelljammer, just chuck them out, Mystara's unique and has
it's own small 'galaxy'.

> The main problem I see is that putting the Mystaran Immortals on the same
> Outer Planes with the Powers of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms is
> that they would all then be part of the same power structure, which would
> drastically alter the balance of power among the various Immortals.  It would also raise a number of thorny questions, such as how to assign alignments (and thus home planes) to all of the Mystaran Immortals, or (alternatively) how to assign Spheres to all of the Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms Powers.

Again, what's the problem here? Alignment doesn't really mean anything in
Planescape either. Just chuck the idea of a limited number of outer planes, and
say the ones listed are the 'most well known'. The alignment orientation is just
an incorrect view. Then you can add any number you want, including the Immortal
home planes. As for how they deal with gods, the gods of other campaign settings
can't touch Mystara. Look at Dark Sun, no power can ever go there. Krynn is
pretty much off limits except for it's own gods. The number of 'powers' that can
have multiple pantheons on multiple primes can be counted on one hand almost.
Only the Immortals have direct influence on Mystara, for the rest of the powers
it's closed. As for how they deal with other powers, maybe they just ignore one
another. After all, their interests are different. If you wanted a definite
reason, just say that the Immortal's power is tied into Mystara, thus dalying
around anywhere else will net them nothing.

I don't mean to sound rude, but I personally think Planescape is cool, and that
arguing against changing Mystara's cosmology at all from a set of 20+ year old
rules really doesn't favor us as a group of fans very well. Granted, the chances
of WotI publishing anything for Mystara again are remote at best, dependent on
how well 3E and related products do, but if new players are going to be
introduced to the setting, this is not the attitude to have. Players younger
than I grew up playing 2nd Edition AD&D, so most of them haven't even heard of
OD&D, much less any material from them.

Okay, rant over.

IronWolf
"It's Specularum, damn it!" (Hmm... now who's clinging...)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:01:13 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Orderius Tangetopulos and his "Voice of Karameikos"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Greetings to everyone.
My story is quite long and strange.
I am a karameikan adventurer and when I was very young I followed my
relatives in their journey from our land in Machetos to this country,
Karameikos, which became my homeland.
Some days ago through the use of a very strange device I came to your world,
in a country called 'Italy'. I cannot describe the first fellings and
emotions when approaching your culture, which is very different from
Mystara's ones. I, by accident, entered in a room of a young italian guy.
After some moments of panic, finally we started to understand each other.
After a long debate I discovered this young man, Marco Fossati, is, through
a device stranger than that artifact, connected with many others men and
women, and they send a kind of 'letters', describing my world.
I decided to help this new friend of mine, who is very kind with me and he's
hosting me in his house, sending to you the masterpiece which made me famous
in all Karameikos. In fact I'm the owner of a journal, in which there are
collected all of the major and minor events happened in Karameikos from the
year 1011 AC. I know already exists the Almanac of Joshuan Gallidox, a dear
friend of mine (with him I had a couple of adventures quite amazing), but my
work goes deeper in  facts, rumors, and places of  Karameikos.
Perhaps, if I'll find a chance to return to my homeworld, I'll bring to you
also the journal about Glantri and Ylaruam.
Now it's your turn to say me if this work could be of some interest for you.
Tell me on this list or send me a 'letter' at marcogiulio.fossati@tin.it.

With respect,

Orderius Tangetopulos, master adventurer and journalist,

and his friend,

Marco Fossati

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:49:14 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined"
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> it's closed. As for how they deal with other powers, maybe
they just ignore one
> another. After all, their interests are different. If you
wanted a definite
> reason, just say that the Immortal's power is tied into
Mystara, thus dalying
> around anywhere else will net them nothing.

But this cheapens the power of the Immortals. Both the Gold
Box and WoTI imply that (besides the Old Ones) the Immortals
are the the most powerful thing in the _Multiverse_. We have
Immortals that don't come from Mystara, even.  You can't
"tie" the Immortals to a single planet. That makes Immortal
adventures boring. Why even BE an Immortal if you can't
explore the Multiverse, build your own plane, create your
own race of worshippers, kick Mystra's pansy butt, etc. :D

I think what you don't understand is that "Mystara" isn't
just the game world, like Forgotten Realms, or Greyhawk. In
the latter, the game world was designed to fit into the
cosmological scheme of the core rulebooks. Mystara has it's
own cosmology, fundamentally incompatible with the core AD&D
rules. No matter how many "hacks" we can make to integrate
Mystara into the Planescape setting (demi-planes, crystal
spheres, etc.) just won't, IMHO, work. It severely cheapens
the setting.

It has always been my opinion that the traditional AD&D
worlds are not in Mystara's "reality", to use a term I put
forth in my definition of Mystara's Cosmology. What this
definition does is simply allow Mystara to hve it's own
Multiverse, as described in Gold Box/WoTI, and still be
connected (via Gate) to the AD&D worlds. Also, as each
reality is mutually exclusive, it allows for the possibility
that Immortals have no influence in the Planescape reality,
the same as the Powers have no influence in the Mystaran
reality. (see, even Planescape is accunted for in my
Multiversal model!) Its just a matter of perspective.

> I don't mean to sound rude, but I personally think
Planescape is cool, and that
> arguing against changing Mystara's cosmology at all from a
set of 20+ year old
> rules really doesn't favor us as a group of fans very
well.

Older != Worse. Noone is forcing you to change your opinions
of Planescape. I'll even withold my opinions on Planescape
to keep from offending you and starting an arguement. I
don't see why using those 20 year old rules is a bad thing.
I agree that they need some clarification, but they don't
need expansion or integration. As fans, we should be keeping
the world alive, not trying to rewrite it.

> introduced to the setting, this is not the attitude to
have. Players younger
> than I grew up playing 2nd Edition AD&D, so most of them
haven't even heard of
> OD&D, much less any material from them.

I admit that I'm clinging to the oD&D rules set. I prefer it
(with a few house rules). Even though we may be moving to a
new game system, we shouldn't abandon the oD&D conventions
that made Mystara what it is. Had Mystara been a stock AD&D
world like Greyhawk, do you think that we'd even be here
now? I doubt it. Mystara would have been crushed under the
weight of FR, and forgotten like so many other worlds. I
doubt that we would have even gotten the Gazetteers. We'd
have gotten a Mystara box set. and maybe a few trail maps,
and adventures. That's it.

What made Mystara interesting is that it had its own rule
system attached to it, which seperated it from AD&D,
allowing it to grow independantly. It ended up growing
exponentially! Mystara has had more supplements than
Kara-Tur, Arabian Adventures, and Birthright combined. That
would have never happened had Mystara not beed seperated
from the rest by rule systems.

oD&D is archaic, I know. It's rules loopholes are immense in
comparison to most modern game systems. Unlike those young
whippersnappers though, oD&D never needed a 2nd edition. And
I feel no need to abandon its conventions. They've served us
so far. And they haven't been surpassed in their simplicity
and beauty yet, IMHO.

> "It's Specularum, damn it!" (Hmm... now who's clinging...)

Me too! Hehe :D


Ethan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:08:54 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: dead npc's of mystara's past
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

--

On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 02:02:02    Neal wrote:
>Well Stalker, i have a couple of old characters and npc's that i will contribute.
>
(snip... to my database of dead NPCs - I love the internet)
>
>I hope you like these and i will post more as i dig them up.
>

I do! Nice to see a NPC from Skothar for a change - I should have thought of that myself! Thanks for participating. If we continue with this, we can build up more people from Mystara's past than we'll ever need, which would be good because we would have something to choose from.

If anyone still thinks that we lack Glantrians on this, well..  add some - I'm an Alphatian so I would really like more dead Glantrians ;) (hey Etienne - what are you doing with that staff. NO! Aaaarrrghhhh....)

   - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:19:47 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Other Historical Dead NPC's
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--

On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:15:36    Caroletti wrote:
>Here are a couple of HDNPC from my campaign.

Thanks, Giulio.

>
(snip... to my NPC database)

>...In 996 he and his company,
>known as the Company of the Seven Stars (thus the nickname Antares),

Oooh - sneaky! Hmm, 'Company of the Seven Stars' - I'll have to add that one too. I like it when adventuring groups have names.

(snip)

>Probably, though, not even that time all were killed, because Antares'
>head and hands were sent to Altair in 1008, with a message written with
>his blood that told: 'Now free'.

Yuck! I'm almost afraid to order those gazetteers now - who knows what I'll receive with the post ;) (...and besides, I did see the movie 'Seven' - yikes!)

Go on, people. Add some more. It's really just a matter of writing down some of your dead PCs from memory. Of course, if you can come up with NPCs from 200+ years into Mystara's past, that would be really cool too..


   - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:44:21 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Meltheim Shadowstalker <Scoooman@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: dead npc's of mystara's past
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Everybody, add MELTHEIM the SHADOWSTALKER to your list of historical NPC's,
ok?  Although i'm not quite dead yet, I will be soon, and i'll tell you all
you need to know.  or you can look it up on shawns site, i think.

Meltheim the Shadowstalker
    Infiltrator to the Immortals
        Devotee of Fate
            Eyes of the Starwatcher

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:23:36 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Michael III Mysteria <michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria
Subject:      Re: Almanac review
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF70D7.AA46A7E0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF70D7.AA46A7E0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is there stuff on the Alphatian and Alfheim military in Red Arrow, Black =
Shield, if so I'd like to get some info on them.

I'm busy creating more army-stat's.

 i have Red Arrow Black Shield, and the first three almanacs but when =
they converted to AD&D the army stats were removed.  I would love to =
hear how the armies of the world have evolved if anyone has keep them up =
or ideas about how to create their stats for the new areas.  email me at =
neal1@tecinfo.com if you have any info or ideas.

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF70D7.AA46A7E0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is there stuff on the Alphatian and =
Alfheim=20
military in Red Arrow, Black Shield, if so I'd like to get some info on=20
them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm busy creating more =
army-stat's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>&nbsp;i have Red Arrow Black Shield, and the =
first=20
three almanacs but when they converted to AD&amp;D the army stats were=20
removed.&nbsp; I would love to hear how the armies of the world have =
evolved if=20
anyone has keep them up or ideas about how to create their stats for the =
new=20
areas.&nbsp; email me at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:neal1@tecinfo.com">neal1@tecinfo.com</A> if you have any =
info or=20
ideas.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF70D7.AA46A7E0--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:46:14 -0700
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Leroy Van Camp III <malacoda@USWEST.NET>
Subject:      [ADMIN] HTML Posts Are Evil
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

I have noticed several people have made posts in HTML.  Please,
HTML postings are not allowed on this list, only plain text.
For most e-mail programs there is a check box in the options
to choose plain text over HTML.  If you have no idea if you
are using HTML or Plain text, hunt down the options and
check.

Thanks.


Leroy Van Camp III
malacoda@uswest.net
http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html
ICQ #20039817

"When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed
suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija
board, and she said she was free."

             November 17, "Wasted"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:22:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      Armies of the world
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micheal,

   there is some on Alfheim.  Alphaian stats are in the first two poor
wizards almanacs. (before the switch to ADD)  if you send me your email i
will send the stats to you.

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:34:31 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      ODD vs ADD vs add3
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I agree to each his own, but i thought the ADD and future rules left off the
abilty to have a goal to reach for in old D&D at least you could grow and
own a dominion besides a barony. (even become king)  yes there are some
archaic things like a race(demihuman) being a class, but for the most part
it is self supportive i agree with steelangel that the differences is what
makes mystara wonderful and the loopholes where there so you could
customize.  So some of you are younger and don't even know of D&D (not
AD&D).  please don't rule it out all together.
  I admit the biggest thing i liked in ODD is the war machine and dominion
running side, and i don't think Birthright (ADD answer) did a good job of
rebuilding that side of RP.
  other opinions are welcome

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:02:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Online store
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.20000203020541.008443f0@racine.ra.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

While trying to track down some older products, I came across an online
store I had not seen mentioned here before that I can recall - they had
some Mystara stuff.  No idea about the quality of service, but here's the
URL -

http://www.cyberdungeon.com/index.html

- Mischa

I have no fears myself that Natal will be overrun by hostile Zulus - but
much fear that Zululand should be overrun by hostile Britons - Anthony
Trollope, 1877

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:04:43 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Michael III Mysteria <michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria
Subject:      Re: Armies of the world
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I have those two PWA's, but I'm wondering if any Alphatian stats before WotI
exist. I'd like the Alfheim stats though.

My mail is at:

M.M.M.Grootenboer@student.tudelft.nl

Thanks,
Michael III Mysteria

----- Original Message -----
From: Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:22 PM
Subject: [MYSTARA] Armies of the world


> micheal,
>
>    there is some on Alfheim.  Alphaian stats are in the first two poor
> wizards almanacs. (before the switch to ADD)  if you send me your email i
> will send the stats to you.

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:18:23 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Michael III Mysteria <michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria
Subject:      Mysteria's All the World's Fighting Ships
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi Everyone,

I just posted the first installment of
Mysteria's All the World's Fighting Ships
on my homepage.
The installment is Ylaruam.
It's not finished yet (having problems exporting tabs to HTML).
But I'd like comments. Do you like the idea? What should change?

Look at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4206

And follow the link under February 6th Updates.

Hope you like it,
Michael III Mysteria

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:33:05 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: ODD vs ADD vs add3
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Well as far as mass combat goes, I can't even find a copy of Battlesystem, the
AD&D counterpart, so I'd probably adapt the War Machine rules for AD&D if I
wanted to do some army fighting. No big deal.

As for dominions, the Castle guide is a very handy book for this, even if you're
using OD&D, the detail level is astounding. (Almost too much really, but
building a castle can raise a lot of questions a DM may not have the answers
to.)

IronWolf

Neal wrote:
>
> I agree to each his own, but i thought the ADD and future rules left off the
> abilty to have a goal to reach for in old D&D at least you could grow and
> own a dominion besides a barony. (even become king)  yes there are some
> archaic things like a race(demihuman) being a class, but for the most part
> it is self supportive i agree with steelangel that the differences is what
> makes mystara wonderful and the loopholes where there so you could
> customize.  So some of you are younger and don't even know of D&D (not
> AD&D).  please don't rule it out all together.
>   I admit the biggest thing i liked in ODD is the war machine and dominion
> running side, and i don't think Birthright (ADD answer) did a good job of
> rebuilding that side of RP.
>   other opinions are welcome
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:42:24 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         DM <mdalmonte@PROVINCIA.RA.IT>
Subject:      Re: Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (long)
In-Reply-To:  <200002050502.GAA29415@racine.racine.ravenna.it>
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At  Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:40:40 -0600, Ranma Al'Thor
<ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU> wrote:
>> Zephyr (Odin)
>
>Why does Odin have a name that evokes wind?
>I don't quite see him as a wind god.

Zehpyr was an Immortal that was mentioned in GAZ2 as being one of the
Guardian Immortals who brought down Nithia and now watch over its remains.
The fact that Odin is of the Sphere of Thought and that he's the god of Sky
in the norse pantheon led me to believe HE was Zephyr. His cult may have
spilled into the Nithian pantheon but reduced to a lesser status, so he
became god of winds and lesser god of skies.

>> Wardens of Nithia (Immortals who brought the downfall of Nithia after
>> Thanatos's corruption and still watch over Nithia's dark secrets in the
>> outer world):
>> Horon (Ixion) [Head]
>> Pflarr (The Gnoll)
>
>But he's not a gnoll.  Shouldn't Ranivorus be 'The Gnoll'?

Actually, this is again from GAZ2: the Gnoll is a GOOD deity, according to
GAZ2, and one who protects Ylaruam, so he MUST be Pflaar, whose bestial
form is very similar to a gnoll to normal people (also bear in mind that
memories of ancient Nithia were really screwed in the Ylari's heads).

>And what ever happened to the Hollow World Pharoah who became an Immortal
>after resolving the civil war in HW Nithia?

He'll be an Immortal of HW Nithia, although I haven't found a place for him
yet. He'll prolly be the Immortal protector of unity and peace, though.

>> Ylaruam is Barimoor. In this case the only goal of the Followers of
>> Al-Fakish may be:
>> a) to overthrow the "evil Barimoor", who's trying to plot the downfall of
>> the Ylari;
>> b) to rally Barimoor and plan the downfall of all Alphatians remaining in
>> the Known World.
>>
>to 'rally' Barimoor?  You mean to recruit him?

Yes, they'e either working to destroy him cause he's an Alphatian or
working to use him to destroy other Alphatians (unwittingly helping him in
his Immortal quest) before slyaing him as well.

Thanx for your comments, John.
 I hope to have cleared the matter.




DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967

Join the Mystara Webring at:
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Join the Starfleet Academy at:
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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:39:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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At 03:28 AM 2/6/00 -0800, IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET> wrote:
>Andrew Theisen wrote:
>>
>> Thus, we can once more go back to the original cosmology of the
>> Red/Blue/Aqua/Black and Gold box sets for a Mystara cosmology.
>
>Why not write something better than those?

What's wrong with those?
-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:15:46 -0800
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Andrew Theisen wrote:
>
> >> Thus, we can once more go back to the original cosmology of the
> >> Red/Blue/Aqua/Black and Gold box sets for a Mystara cosmology.
> >
> What's wrong with those?

Well literally speaking, the Immortals rules in the Gold Box set are much more
restrictive in terms of class, race, and alignment orientation than those in the
Wrath of the Immortals box set.

Figuratively speaking, The Immortals themselves lack a good amount of detail in
terms of specialty priests and specific individual traits to detail what kind of
clerical magic they grant. As far as playing Immortals, a new system would
likely be required to be worked up from scratch for 3E, although I must be
honest and say that I don't know anyone who's actually played in an Immortal
campaign. Most make use of the structure to decide which Immortal could beat
another and what they're capable of doing and making.

As for cosmology, I'll just stop now. I run by AD&D rules, and I really don't
want to get into a fight about it.

IronWolf

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:26:30 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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In a message dated 2000-02-06 6:41:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ironwolf@EWA.NET writes:

<< I don't mean to sound rude, but I personally think Planescape is cool, and
that
 arguing against changing Mystara's cosmology at all from a set of 20+ year
old
 rules really doesn't favor us as a group of fans very well. Granted, the
chances
 of WotI publishing anything for Mystara again are remote at best, dependent
on
 how well 3E and related products do, but if new players are going to be
 introduced to the setting, this is not the attitude to have. Players younger
 than I grew up playing 2nd Edition AD&D, so most of them haven't even heard
of
 OD&D, much less any material from them.  >>

This bit does not fit well into the rest of your message, in which you
basically
suggest warping the standard AD&D cosmology to accommodate Mystara.
My idea is to preserve the distinct features of the cosmologies of different
worlds according to which sets of Outer Planes they have direct access to.
And note the word "direct" in this context -- there are certainly many
indirect
ways to get from one to the other, whether by wandering through the Deep
Ethereal or via one of the 666+ layers of the Abyss, which surely must be
able to reach many places inaccessible to the other standard Outer Planes.
Gaz 7 suggests that Yggdrasill (the "World Tree" of Norse mythology) may
also provide a connection between otherwise separated worlds.

For anyone who is solely familiar with either the AD&D cosmology or
the Mystara/WotI cosmology, the scheme I suggested should have
many familiar elements.  The idea is that the portions that are most
compatible (namely the Ethereal and Inner Planes) are shared by the
settings, but the incompatible parts (namely the Astral and Outer
Planes, as described for each setting) are kept separate.  For anyone
who has his players go through the entire arrangement for some reason,
there would be portions already known to their own scholars and whole
sets of planes and/or dimensions that they would discover for the first
time.

And it is no accident that I associated Mystara with Ravenloft, as the two
settings do have some interesting similarities in terms of how magic works
in them, if you compare (for example) the spell descriptions in the D&D
Rules Cyclopedia with the spell modifications in "Domain of Dread" and
similar Ravenloft sources.  In Ravenloft these effects are achieved by deny-
ing that demi-plane any connection with the standard Astral and Outer
Planes, so it would make sense for Mystara to achieve the same results
in a similar way.

Finally, you have things completely backward when you refer to the
Mystara cosmology as being 20+ years old.  It is the standard AD&D
cosmology that goes back that far, although it has been expanded
upon over the years ever since then.  The Mystara cosmology is
slightly newer, with the original scheme described in the gold box
Immortal's set in the late 1980s and finally described in detail in WotI
in 1992.

But for a true "fish out of water" scenario, I can think of nothing better
than to send Mystarans to Sigil or send Planars who think they "know
the dark of things" into the Nightmare Dimension.

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:01:24 -0800
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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David Knott wrote:
>
> And it is no accident that I associated Mystara with Ravenloft, as the two
> settings do have some interesting similarities in terms of how magic works
> in them, if you compare (for example) the spell descriptions in the D&D
> Rules Cyclopedia with the spell modifications in "Domain of Dread" and
> similar Ravenloft sources.  In Ravenloft these effects are achieved by deny-
> ing that demi-plane any connection with the standard Astral and Outer
> Planes, so it would make sense for Mystara to achieve the same results
> in a similar way.

Mystara and OD&D are not the same thing anymore though. Mystara can be run with
other systems, and if it is done then any rules established in the Rules
Cyclopedia are subject to interpretation.

I think that's what bothers me the most about these discussions, is the way
people continue to use OD&D to define Mystara. I think Mystara can break away
and become it's own entity. Systems are finite and subject to change, but
concepts and design are far more stable.

> Finally, you have things completely backward when you refer to the
> Mystara cosmology as being 20+ years old.  It is the standard AD&D
> cosmology that goes back that far, although it has been expanded
> upon over the years ever since then.  The Mystara cosmology is
> slightly newer, with the original scheme described in the gold box
> Immortal's set in the late 1980s and finally described in detail in WotI
> in 1992.

Late 1980's? I could swear it was early, around 1985. The gold box set is the
only set I don't have of the reprinted boxes, so I can't be certain on
copyright.

> But for a true "fish out of water" scenario, I can think of nothing better
> than to send Mystarans to Sigil or send Planars who think they "know
> the dark of things" into the Nightmare Dimension.
>
Oh, no doubt there. By using Mystara-style monsters in my AD&D campaign, such as
Magen and Bhuts, the players don't really know what to expect, and for those who
did fight them in the past it's nostalgic.

My apologies for the juxaposition of my statements in the former message, I was
up way too late, and feeling like there was a chip on my shoulder.

IronWolf

"It's Specularum, damn it!" (Some things we never let go of.)

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:13:50 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:01:24 -0800 IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET> writes:
> David Knott wrote:
> Late 1980's? I could swear it was early, around 1985. The gold box
> set is the
> only set I don't have of the reprinted boxes, so I can't be certain
> on
> copyright.

The copyright on my copy of the Gold Box is 1986.


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:41:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         SteelAngel <spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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> I think that's what bothers me the most about these
discussions, is the way
> people continue to use OD&D to define Mystara. I think
Mystara can break away
> and become it's own entity. Systems are finite and subject
to change, but
> concepts and design are far more stable.

But the concepts and design of Mystara are rooted in oD&D
convention.

You can rid the world of oD&D, and move Mystara to any other
rules system, but all basic Elves will still be
Fighter-Mages, Dwarves will never be Magic Users, etc.

The rules defined what Mystara became. If you get rid of the
rules, nothing changes except dice rolls.


Ethan

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:48:40 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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SteelAngel wrote:
>
> But the concepts and design of Mystara are rooted in oD&D
> convention.

They started there, yes.

> You can rid the world of oD&D, and move Mystara to any other
> rules system, but all basic Elves will still be
> Fighter-Mages, Dwarves will never be Magic Users, etc.

I disagree on that, Mystara is not about a rigid class system that says "You
can't play this." If the Savage Coast's numerous new races are any indication,
Mystara is about the opportunity to play anything.

> The rules defined what Mystara became. If you get rid of the
> rules, nothing changes except dice rolls.

Mystara, like any campaign world, grows beyond the original system. Rules are
not static, they are guidelines. The most important thing in any game is to have
fun. You tell players "You can't play an elven thief/dwarven monk because
Mystara doesn't have that!" then you won't have any players. There are plenty of
other games and systems that don't restrict a player's choices.

Actually, are you running a campaign at this time? I'd like to hear how it's
going, get some perspective on my own.

IronWolf

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:26:23 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         David Knott <Kaviyd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Skothar:  Alphatia's forgotten eastern front
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It has occurred to me that it would be appropriate to bring up a factor that
under normal circumstances should have prevented the all-out war between
Alphatia and Thyatis that occurred in WotI:  namely, the threat to Alphatia
of the nations of Skothar.

The basic puzzle is that even if we upgrade the armed forces of Thyatis
above what is presented in the PWAs (a good idea for many reasons),
the 2:1 advantage in manpower and and even greater advantage in
natural resources would still leave Alphatia with a major advantage over
Thyatis.  So, why did both empires believe that a war between them
would bring mutual ruin?  I can think of two reasons:

1) Alphatian aristocrats were chaotic and self-absorbed and thus little
inclined to participate in such a campaign.  However, this problem of
motivation was easily solved by a propaganda campaign aimed at
providing that motivation.

2) More significantly, the Alphatians had significant foes on the continent
of Skothar that they could not afford to turn their backs on.  Prior to 1000
AC it seems likely that Alphatian activity on the continent centered on a
partially successful campaign of conquest against the Jennites along with
occasional minor reprisals against Minaean pirates.  Both of these groups
would be likely to attack Alphatia as soon as it showed any sign of weak-
ness or diverted large numbers of troops to Brun.  The interior nations
outlined by the MOrient project probably would remain aloof, as they have
had little inclination to interact with the "barbarians" across the sea, but
the Thonians and the Tanagoro might be tempted to get involved if Alphatia
became too obvious a target.

The Spike Assault of 960 AC failed because of these considerations.
A quick campaign to overrun the Isle of Dawn and then proceed to
Thyatis City nearly succeeded, but the slight delay imposed by Thincol's
rallying of the gladiators was enough to stop the entire assault because
the risk of attack from the east would have grown as the western campaign
dragged on.

For the War of Wrath, however, something more must have happened to
neutralize the threat to Alphatia from Skothar in general and from the
Jennites and Minaeans in particular.  Did Torenal defeat them in a major
campaign?  Did some Alphatian diplomat get the Minaeans to sign a
non-aggression pact?  Or did some other events on Skothar assure the
Alphatians of sufficient distraction to give them a free hand in the west?

Ideas, anyone?

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:08:11 -0800
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Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
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At 05:15 PM 2/6/00 -0800, IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET> wrote:
>
>Well literally speaking, the Immortals rules in the Gold Box set are much
>more restrictive in terms of class, race, and alignment orientation than
>those in the Wrath of the Immortals box set.

Not really, as far as I can tell. (I assume you're talking about the rules
to reach Immortality, rather than the rules on *being* Immortal). The
Masters rules for reaching Immortality are pretty much exactly like the
WotI rules- both have favored classes for each particular sphere (while at
the same time not barring any class from following that particular path);
the tasks, trials, and quests are almost identical. The only real
difference I can tell is that WotI made some changes to account for a) new
races/classes that weren't covered in the Masters set (reflecting additions
to the Mystaraverse that came along afterwards), and b) some minor benefits
for clerics/paladins/etc that serve a particular Immortals' ethos.

In fact, the WotI rules are a bit more restrictive, in that they require
that whatever path you followed to Immortality dictates which sphere you
serve once you've ascended. The Gold Box allows for any changes of spheres
after ascension that the player may decide.

>Figuratively speaking, The Immortals themselves lack a good amount of
>detail in terms of specialty priests and specific individual traits to
>detail what kind of clerical magic they grant.

Mainly due to the changing views of the Immortals roles in the Mystara
cosmology between the Gold Box and the Gazetteer era. As far as the
original rules went, clerics were more "generic", followers of a particular
ethos, as opposed to an Immortal. In the Gazetteer era, the Immortals
became something more akin to the Gods of the AD&D cosmologies.

Both interpretations have their merits, IMO. I'm not entirely sure which I
prefer, to be honest.

>As far as playing Immortals, a new system would likely be required to be
>worked up from scratch for 3E, although I must be honest and say that I
>don't know anyone who's actually played in an Immortal campaign. Most make
>use of the structure to decide which Immortal could beat another and what
>they're capable of doing and making.

Actually, from what I've seen of 3rd Edition, almost all of the rules
presented in the Gold Box and WotI could be taken with very little
modification for an Immortals level ruleset for 3E. Mentzer's work with the
Immortals, as well as some of the later additions by Allston (which
"customizes" the Immortals a bit more, and makes them fall more in line
with the Gods of AD&D) translates very well to the system presented in 3rd
Edition. Again, just based on what I've seen.

>As for cosmology, I'll just stop now. I run by AD&D rules, and I really
>don't want to get into a fight about it.

I can see where you might feel this way, under the circumstances, though I
find it unfortunate, since this seems to be the major issue at hand. I
don't think that a) either cosmology is wholly incompatible with the other,
nor that b) it needs to be an issue in any case, given the stance WotC is
taking on their D&D 3rd Edition cosmology (which is to say, they aren't
endorsing any particular one as closely as they did with AD&D).
-----

Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen
Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout
jsmill@wans.net

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:04:47 -0800
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David Knott wrote:
>
> 1) Alphatian aristocrats were chaotic and self-absorbed and thus little
> inclined to participate in such a campaign.  However, this problem of
> motivation was easily solved by a propaganda campaign aimed at
> providing that motivation.

I think another factor along these lines is the sheer size of the Alphatian
empire and the fact we are dealing with a medieval/renaissance level culture.
Okay, magical communication would likely exist, but even in Alphatia mages
solely dedicated to being radio ops would be rare. (They consider magic-users
the epitome of evolution, so I doubt that any MU would willingly work a menial
job.) If you're using the Militant Wizard Kit (And playing AD&D I guess) then
you'd also have the idea that most combat mages aren't going to have access to
the more powerful spells.

So, while Alphatia COULD defeat Thyatis through sheer manpower and outproduction
of war units, it would take them years to mobilize, and most of the Alphatian
dominions and colonies are not directly suited towards warfare. Plus the Council
of Mages and the Empress would have to deal with the same thing the U.S. did
during WW2, basic necessities shortages, war riots, etc. War isn't fun for the
guys doing the work.

Going further on this point, the only Alphatian colonies that would likely be
susceptible to a war propoganda campaign would be the ones at the borders,
notably the Isle of Dawn. (Where likely armed militia are a regular occurence
after centuries of border disputes.) Bellisaria and the other outlying colonies
would be more concerned with raiders from Skothar (as you surmised) and they
probably wouldn't like the idea of sending armed units they need for defense to
some war. Likely the only reason the Empress had no serious obstructions to
declaring war was the destruction of Aasla, a bloody atrocity that would
definitely piss everybody off.

> 2) More significantly, the Alphatians had significant foes on the continent
> of Skothar that they could not afford to turn their backs on.  Prior to > 1000 AC it seems likely that Alphatian activity on the continent centered > on a partially successful campaign of conquest against the Jennites along > with occasional minor reprisals against Minaean pirates.  Both of these > groups would be likely to attack Alphatia as soon as it showed any sign of > weakness or diverted large numbers of troops to Brun.  The interior nations
> outlined by the MOrient project probably would remain aloof, as they have
> had little inclination to interact with the "barbarians" across the sea, > but the Thonians and the Tanagoro might be tempted to get involved if > Alphatia became too obvious a target.

Well, the MOrient is not canon material, but with or without them the logic is
quite sound. As I said above, the eastern dominions would not be happy with
sending troops to a war to the west when they have their own problems with
Skothar raiders.

> The Spike Assault of 960 AC failed because of these considerations.
> A quick campaign to overrun the Isle of Dawn and then proceed to
> Thyatis City nearly succeeded, but the slight delay imposed by Thincol's
> rallying of the gladiators was enough to stop the entire assault because
> the risk of attack from the east would have grown as the western campaign
> dragged on.

In addition, The emperor Tyrion had pursued the war without any serious reason
beyond hatred, and the Council of Mages were attempting to call it off. The only
reason he got as far as he did was that he almost succeeded. But as soon as it
appeared that it would drag out into a long conflict they backed out.

> For the War of Wrath, however, something more must have happened to
> neutralize the threat to Alphatia from Skothar in general and from the
> Jennites and Minaeans in particular.  Did Torenal defeat them in a major
> campaign?  Did some Alphatian diplomat get the Minaeans to sign a
> non-aggression pact?  Or did some other events on Skothar assure the
> Alphatians of sufficient distraction to give them a free hand in the west?
>
> Ideas, anyone?

Well, the only two major threats I see on Skothar (that are canon) are Jen and
the Minaeans. A peace treaty with the Minaeans is a possibility, and the
Jennites were essentially 'under control'. I'd say also that after six years of
escalating tensions, Alphatia had likely began to build up it's forces beyond
peacetime defenses, and they probably had the manpower to push a war without
serious considerations of the eastern borders. Any reasonable espionage network
would also show that Thyatis was not in good shape to repel them, and that any
protracted war could be over in less than five years.

My end opinion is that Skothar and the eastern borders were likely a
consideration, but probably not a dire threat. Any serious attack from Skothar
would likely take Bellisaria first, thus alerting mainland Alphatia to the
danger long before it reached their shores.

And of course, Alphatia has a sky navy, an enormous advantage over any land or
sea-based army. Nobody else on Mystara has one except the Heldannic Knights, who
had their own troubles to deal with during the war. (Plague, invasion of the
Ethengar Hordes, you know, little things.)

IronWolf

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:05:55 EST
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In a message dated 2000-02-06 1:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< Is there stuff on the Alphatian and Alfheim military in Red Arrow, Black
Shield, if so I'd like to get some info on them.  >>

Alfheim is in there, but Alphatia plays no military role in that adventure.

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Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:54:46 -0600
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From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Skothar:  Alphatia's forgotten eastern front
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>
> It has occurred to me that it would be appropriate to bring up a factor
that
> under normal circumstances should have prevented the all-out war between
> Alphatia and Thyatis that occurred in WotI:  namely, the threat to
Alphatia
> of the nations of Skothar.
>
Well, these could indeed be developed.

> The basic puzzle is that even if we upgrade the armed forces of Thyatis
> above what is presented in the PWAs (a good idea for many reasons),
> the 2:1 advantage in manpower and and even greater advantage in
> natural resources would still leave Alphatia with a major advantage over
> Thyatis.  So, why did both empires believe that a war between them
> would bring mutual ruin?  I can think of two reasons:
>
        Well, a 2:1 advantage in manpower isn't as decisive, at least in
pre-modern (and indeed in modern) power considerations as one might think.
Not in and of itself, at least. Nor is vast territories, presumably with
vast resources. The classical Greeks were outmatched in territory and
population by a far higher ratio with respect to Persia than the Thyatians
are vis a vi the Alphatians - and the Persians were as militaristic a
people as one could hope to find, as well. Numerous factors contributed to
the military superiority of the Greeks none the less.
        The Germanic tribes were outmatched in numbers, population, and wealth by
the Romans, and none the less managed to hold their own against them, and
to eventually conquere the Western Empire of the Roman People. In the 18th
and 19th centuries Russia had a vaster territory and larger population, and
greater potential wealth than tiny Britain - but surface comparisons cannot
tell the entire story. It was Britain that built a world-spanning Empire.
Before them there was Spain, the first nation to build an Empire on which
the "sun never set," but that did not give them an insurmountable burden.
        Territory, population, and even wealth do not nessissarily translate
directly into military superiority. Nor does territory, population, and
potential natural resources develop into a wealthy society (as opposed to
wealthy, including possibly extremely wealthy, elites/individuals &
families).
        How does that relate to Mystara? Well, just as it is dangerous to say that
because China was so large and had such a population advantage, as well as
having generals schooled by the words of Sun Tsu, that there was no way
some band of nomads could possibly pierce their defences and overun the
Sung Empire, so too can one not say that just because a nation has an
advantage in population, territorial extent, potential wealth, and possibly
even what passes for "learning" in most Mystaran nations (those technical
colleges known as magical "universities," - the latter misapplied) that
they of nessessity cannot be conterbalanced, equalled, or even conquered,
by a smaller, less populous power.
>
> 2) More significantly, the Alphatians had significant foes on the
continent
> of Skothar that they could not afford to turn their backs on.  Prior to
1000
> AC it seems likely that Alphatian activity on the continent centered on a
> partially successful campaign of conquest against the Jennites along with
> occasional minor reprisals against Minaean pirates.  Both of these groups
> would be likely to attack Alphatia as soon as it showed any sign of weak-
> ness or diverted large numbers of troops to Brun.
>
In other venues, at other times, in other debates most people have
dismissed the posibility of the Jennites being a threat to Alphatia - or,
rather, to the remnant rump of Alphatia most commonly known as "the NACE".
I remember well the debates regarding whether NACE could hold Esterhold in
the face of the Jennites wanting to recover it. Consensus opinion seemed to
be that they would have little difficulty holding them back. Now I can
refer everyone to my above remarks, as well as the arguments I made at the
time, contrary to this conventional wisdom. My purpose here isn't to
re-start those debates, which grew acrimonious, just to note what the
positions were at the time. If the much less populous, much less powerful
NACE has little trouble, for whatever reason, keeping the Jennites, or
other covetous powers of Skothar, from overuning Esterhold, then Alphatia
itself would have had even less.
        Furthermore, Alphatia's holdings on Skothar, while valuable places to
strip mine to enrich the heartland, were not vital to it. The loss of
Esterhold in any war would not have been that serious to them - hurt their
pride somewhat, made back home a bit dreary, and forced them to tie down
some forces during a war, but not have been so overly-distracting as to
cripple them (esentially this is how things went IMC when a
rebellion/warfare was stirred up in Esterhold during the version of Wrath
IMC - and the Esterholders had support of some of the Jen tribes invading,
as well as Thonians from the north, and supplies and encouragement from
Thyatis).
        If by taking a temporary setback in the east, in Skothar/Esterhold,
Alphatia could have delt a crippling or death blow to Thyatis, then this is
likely a trade off they would have gladly accepted. Even post-Spike Assault
retaining the Isle of Dawn and preventing Thyatis from recovering it, were
that possible, would have been worth temporary setbacks in the benighted,
barely-civilized region of Esterhold (whatever losses there could
theoretically been recovered once they were sure Thyatis was down in any
case). Ochalea & the Pearl Islands are probably more vital to Thyatis than
Esterhold is to Alphatia - just my opinion.
>
> The Spike Assault of 960 AC failed because of these considerations.
> A quick campaign to overrun the Isle of Dawn and then proceed to
> Thyatis City nearly succeeded, but the slight delay imposed by Thincol's
> rallying of the gladiators was enough to stop the entire assault because
> the risk of attack from the east would have grown as the western campaign
> dragged on.
>
Again, that might explain a calling off of the offensive, but likely not
the subsiquent setbacks: the expulsion from Thyatis itself, or the losses
of the territory Tylion IV had captured on the Isle of Dawn.

> For the War of Wrath, however, something more must have happened to
> neutralize the threat to Alphatia from Skothar in general and from the
> Jennites and Minaeans in particular.  Did Torenal defeat them in a major
> campaign?  Did some Alphatian diplomat get the Minaeans to sign a
> non-aggression pact?  Or did some other events on Skothar assure the
> Alphatians of sufficient distraction to give them a free hand in the
west?
>
> Ideas, anyone?
>
        Well, barring an "expose" creating/detailing great powers of the East, it
seems a bit unlikely. The Mineans are not a unified power - like the Greeks
vs Persians, they could be a potential threat to Alphatia, at sea at least,
dispite the fact that they are (at least according to the figures we have)
more vastly outnumbered than the Thyatians are. Again, numbers are not
everything. But it took a league of the Greeks to repel the Persians, and
it took a mighty and unified Kingdom (which also forged a League in Greece)
to truely threaten Persia.
        The Jennites are, IMO, a greater threat (though some others disagree, as
noted above) - but have no seafaring capacity. Their ability to harm
Alphatia is thus limited to attacks aimed at Esterhold.
        The Tangaroo - an intriguing idea. Barring more information about them,
it's hard to say. I personally haven't detailed them so I'm reluctant to
speculate.
        There is the remnant of what is possibly, likely, the oldest surviving
"Empire" on Mystara, that bit of tundra known as Thonia, northwards of
Alphatia & Esterhold. IMC I did develop that some. I suppose it's close to
time that I should finish the job and post something. IMC, Thonia was a
(minor) rival to Alphatia (since the Thonians had some recolection of being
an ancient empire, and a grand people at one point in the distant past, and
were irritated at being overshadowed by such upstarts who weren't even
native to Mystara, but were instead interlopers). But the Thonians,
IMO/IMC, were able to keep themselves from being overun by Alphatia (barely
- and mainly in part because Alphatia wasn't that interested in the lands
of the Thonians), having tough armies. But Thonia had about 600,000 -
800,000 people, IMO. Few cities (one old city being its capital), with
everyone else more or less scattered around their vast territory subsisting
as herdsman, fisherman, and grubbing meagre crops out of the ground where
possible. Thonia had to trade with Alphatia, and thus could be only
somewhat hostile (not overtly so). Whenever possible they hired out troops
as "mercenaries" in wars against Alphatia, but were (usually) careful not
to go to war against the Alphatians directly. Their "mercenaries" sometimes
even served with/were hired by the Alphatians themselves, because modern
(post-Blackmoor boom) Thonia is far from a wealthy land.
        They might be tempted to help nibble away at Alphatia if the Alphatians
became seriously distracted for a decade or so, and even engage in a bit of
piracy/raiding (IMC Thonia has fairly good ships & seamanship), but again
are no substantial threat to Alphatia proper, on an imperial scale (but one
never knows when an Alexander type might arrise.)
        IMO, but we all know what IMO is, is that Thyatis fended off Alphatia more
or less by itself. This is what "canon" tends to imply. Is "canon" right?
Am I
right? (well, many have their rather strong opinions of my position on
these topics, as we have seen of late. . .) - *shrug* - donno. Can't really
say. All that, IMO, can be definitavely said is what I said above - that
raw numbers do not nessissarily tell the entire story, a 2:1 population
advantage is not decisive or telling in and of itself, nor is a vast
territorial advantage.
        As to answers regarding why the Alphatians were not able to "finish the
job" in AC 960, or even hold the territories they had siezed on the Isle of
Dawn, well I have an answer to that question (for those of you who dislike
my attitude, note that I said I have "an answer," I didn't claim to have
"the answer"), but I can't share it now - I've promised the Tome of Mystara
first publication, as this answer appears in the History of Thyatis
timeline Caroletti & I have been working on. Is it a good answer? Well, of
course I think it is. It's an internally-consistant answer to this
conundrum.
        There are answers to the "WotI Question" as well, but I'm sure that if I
speculate on what my answer is the usual response and debate will ensue yet
again, so I will keep my own council on that for now.

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:18:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Mysteria's All the World's Fighting Ships
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Michael III Mysteria wrote:

> The installment is Ylaruam.
> It's not finished yet (having problems exporting tabs to HTML).
> But I'd like comments. Do you like the idea? What should change?
>
> Look at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4206
>
Good idea, good execution.

I got lost a few times, but I like it.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:19:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ylari/Nithian Pantheon (long)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.6.32.20000205234224.007ee9f0@dsc.unibo.it>
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, DM wrote:

> At  Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:40:40 -0600, Ranma Al'Thor
> <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU> wrote:

> >> Wardens of Nithia (Immortals who brought the downfall of Nithia after
> >> Thanatos's corruption and still watch over Nithia's dark secrets in the
> >> outer world):
> >> Horon (Ixion) [Head]
> >> Pflarr (The Gnoll)
> >
> >But he's not a gnoll.  Shouldn't Ranivorus be 'The Gnoll'?
>
> Actually, this is again from GAZ2: the Gnoll is a GOOD deity, according to
> GAZ2, and one who protects Ylaruam, so he MUST be Pflaar, whose bestial
> form is very similar to a gnoll to normal people (also bear in mind that
> memories of ancient Nithia were really screwed in the Ylari's heads).
>
Ahh, I failed to notice that with my low perception skills when reading
GAZ2, which I am fortunate to have.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:33:20 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
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From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Skothar:  Alphatia's forgotten eastern front
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote:

> The basic puzzle is that even if we upgrade the armed forces of Thyatis
> above what is presented in the PWAs (a good idea for many reasons),
> the 2:1 advantage in manpower and and even greater advantage in
> natural resources would still leave Alphatia with a major advantage over
> Thyatis.  So, why did both empires believe that a war between them
> would bring mutual ruin?  I can think of two reasons:
>
The same way the Holy Roman Empire, with vastly greater resources than
France in the 1200s was repeatedly spanked by the French, and the same way
the English in 1350-1450 repeatedly spanked the French.

A compact, centralized state has a vast advantage over a sprawling
_feudal_ empire.  While Thyatis is not a perfectly centralized state, it
can efficiently use its resources, while Alphatia's central government can
only effectively make war if a majority of the subordinate monarchs want
to fight.  Otherwise, they can stall and drag their feet.

A majority of Alphatia's armed forces should be those of the specific
kingdoms; the central armed forces under the Empress should be relatively
small.  The Alphatian Emperor would have some comamnd authority over them,
but unless Alphatia was under assault, he would have a hard time
convincing say...the Queen of Haven to support a war of conquest in
Norwold which doesn't benefit her at all.

And sometimes they fight wars which the Empress ignores; note how the
Confederacy of Dunadale became a kingdom in order to be allowed to raise
its own army because the central government's army wasn't doing enough to
protect it (see Dawn of the Emperors writeup of it).

Thus, Alphatia might have huge armies, but many of those would not be
available to the central government to simply use like pawns on a
chessboard at will.

The actual Alphatian victory in the WOTI was probably the result of enough
of the major kings and queens actually getting behind the war and giving
the Empress real support.

I don't see Skothar as a major factor, although I do see it as the logical
direction for Alphatian expansion.


John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:46:57 -0600
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From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Skothar:  Alphatia's forgotten eastern front
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>
> I think another factor along these lines is the sheer size of the
Alphatian
> empire and the fact we are dealing with a medieval/renaissance level
culture.
>
Well, what you said about communications is important. But the most
significant thing to keep in mind is logistics - and the fact that we're
dealing with a midieval/early renaissance level culture limits the size of
armies that can be deployed in any one theatre/battlefield. This limit is
actually rather high - especially if one posits the existance of spells
that can be used to preserve food. None the less, overland a supply train
will eventually eat its own supplies (the donkies, drovers, et al), which
is why most armies tend to live off the land as well as bring their own
supplies. Sea transport is much more efficient - both the Thyatian and
Alphatian Empires are largely maritime, so this tends to minimise the
logistical difficulties. . .somewhat.
        In theory skyships could also be used as efficient (?) supply transport
vessels - but they tend to over-man them (so the carried personel would eat
up the supplies, meaning little would be available to support ground
forces), and this would be a strange use of such ships, given the cost of
even the most minimally enchanted (ones that just fly, with no additional
protective or offensive enchantments).
        As for the size of the Alphatian empire (or the Thyatian one, for that
matter) - this poses, IMO, little in the way of defensive difficulties
except against each other, since their "direct interfaces" with other
powers are limited (at least until Alphatia moves into Norwold in AC 985,
lengthening their "open frontier") - in fact, Alphatia's only frontier with
a power other than Thyatis is in Esterhold, which is not the vital center
of their Empire. An enemy would need an exceptionally powerful fleet,
capable of transporting in one "wave" a extremely large army, in order to
truely threaten Alphatia's vital core (the continent itself). Even
Bellissaria would be dificult for places like Minea to threaten (the
nearest "canon" region to Alphatia that has a strong maritime tradition) -
at least if one goes by population figures and assumes they are a rough
equivilent of "power projection" - Minea wouldn't be able to send enough
troops to take on Bellissaria alone if that is one's method of guessing how
strong a region's forces are (see my previous mails for how raw
population/territory totals can be misleading, however).
>
> So, while Alphatia COULD defeat Thyatis through sheer manpower and
outproduction
> of war units, it would take them years to mobilize, and most of the
Alphatian
> dominions and colonies are not directly suited towards warfare.
>
Again, that premise is based upon debatable assumptions - sheer manpower
does not imply the potential strength of one's armies. It is somewhat
appropriate to guess the potential size of armies (but not nessissarily
actual size, as for a variety of reasons that potential may not be
effectively realized by a given nation, especially one as inefficient as
Alphatia seems to be). But numbers have only rarely been a substitute for
warmaking capacity IRL. Usually other factors are more determinative
(quality of forces, to be brief).
        And that gets us back to the earlier thread that devolved so badly:
deciding what sort of quality, especially relative to other nations/powers,
at given points in Mystaran history, this or that nation (Alphatia or
Thyatis, or any other two nations) has is difficult. Finding agreement when
a range of opinion (again, see that thread) exists is very hard. The PWAs
might have been useful, or at least might be for other nations, but the
forces they describe are so. . .wildly divergent. . .that assuming they are
an accurate portrayal brings up the question (mentioning it will no doubt
once again raise charges against me again) of why the Wrath war lasted so
long as it did, or why Thyatis existed in the first place, if the relative
quality of forces was so favorable to Alphatia as those units tend to
imply. In fact, those forces cannot be reconciled with Mystaran history or
with the information (as little as it may be) that we have.
        In any case, getting into such specific examples is beside the point - the
main point to keep in mind is that sheer numbers, or "unit creation
potential" - is only one factor, and probably not the most important one,
in determining the strength or weakness of a nation's military.
>
> Well, the MOrient is not canon material, but with or without them the
> logic is quite sound.
> As I said above, the eastern dominions would not be happy
> with sending troops to a war to the west when they have their
> own problems with Skothar raiders.
>
        Well, unless the quality of the forces the eastern dominions could raise
were significantly better than the quality of the troops that could be
levied from Alphatia itself, it wouldn't matter much whether they
contributed much to the war effort at all. Esterhold has about 220,000
persons. Belissaria has fewer people than live in Thyatis City (I forget
the total - it's something around a half a million people). The Alphatian
"War Planning Council" would probably be satisfied if these colonies
"watched the Empire's back" as it were, sending only small formations (at
least at first) - wartime mobilization would have more than made up the
difference (in numbers at least) to insure these areas would be adiquately
garrissoned (as strongly, if not more strongly, than in times of peace).
        Like Thyatis (though admitedly to a slightly smaller degree), the main
"power" of Alphatia is in its heartland - the mainland territories for
Thyatis, the continent for Alphatia. It is from these regions that most
troops would be mobilized. Again, wartime mobilization would insure that
the continent itself was at least as strongly garissoned (in numbers of
troops if not in quality) as during peacetime. The ability of other nations
- Thyatis, Thonia, Minea, or any other notional power in Skothar or
elsewhere - to transport sufficient forces to the continent of Alphatia to
be even moderately threatening would require a strong fleet, capable of
transporting a very strong army (strong in both numbers, because a lot of
territory would have to be garissoned, and likely in quality, because none
of these areas are likely to have any numerical advantage over the
Alphatians). Transporting in multiple waves would not be helpful (because
the Alphatians would then be able to defeat the invading armies piecemeal)
- therefore the attacking nation would have to have a fleet strong enough
to conduct the invasion in more or less one go (follow-on re-enforcements
would be helpful, but the initial force would have to be strong enough on
its own to make sure it wasn't overun).
        I won't speculate, but I will ask if anyone else is willing to speculate
as to whether their is a nation near Alphatia that would have a large
enough, and strong enough, fleet to threaten such an invasion. If you think
not, then the Alphatian Empire would have little to fear from any of these.
        Note also that historically a collection (or, rather - not collection, but
a number) of scattered lesser powers haven't generally been able to manage
to truely "counter-ballance" a single greater power. Only in cases where
the lesser powers were somehow "bundled" have they posed a real danger -
where they could act more or less in unison, "cooperating" either openly or
tacitly/"accidentally" against the larger power. This again is something
that, to me, implies that Thyatis (or "Thyatis and its allies" - meaning
near allies, actual allies able to cooperate with Imperial forces) usually
counter-balances Alphatia on its own, rather than requiring the presence of
some distant powers elsewhere to help out. It is the (rare) occassion when
Thyatian "efficiency" breaks down, for whatever reason, that this fails and
the "Alphatian hordes" pour through. The unmilitary Gabrionus V, who
diverted funds from the fleet & army to other projects, allowed one such
instance. The activities of Valerias (the speculations of someone else to
the contrary notwithstanding, given the very clear remarks in WotI
regarding this) was another instance.
        Otherwise, especially over the long run, such a thing cannot be maintained
for any duration - because someone will eventually find some way to insure
at least enough peace on the one front so that they can act decisively on
the other front (Justinian managed that, making peace with the Persians and
then later accepting some disorder on that frontier so that he could make
conquests in the west. These came to grief because of the unexpected,
unparalleled appearance of the bubonic plague, which wreaked havoc with his
budgeting and forces at precisely the wrong time. But no one can count on
having such unlucky, or lucky {depending upon your point of view} breaks
occur at every critical point over a thousand years). The scenario you
provided (re the Alphatians insuring peace with Minea and keeping the
Jennites "under control") is theoretically one that could be achieved at
any time. One just pays gold ("tribute" or "subsidy") to the Mineans in
exchange for them not raiding, while concentrating forces for the blow
against the western power (Thyatis, in this case).
        It would be, and will be, interesting to detail Skothar, but as an
"Eastern Front" meant to tie down Alphatia where Thyatis cannot, its
potential is IMO very limited, if only because Alphatia has nothing so
critical to lose on that front (Esterhold) that would outweigh a decisive
victory on the western front (elimination of Thyatis as a foe and recovery
of the territories lost in AY 1000).
        Here's a question: is there something so aesthetically wrong/dislikable
with the dynamic set up in DotE, wherin Alphatia & Thyatis oppose and
counterbalance each other, that one of them needs to be in effect replaced
by some other, previously unknown power? If the consensus is "yes, there
is", then I'll help you detail the replacement "foe" for whichever one is
deemed unworthy of the struggle.
        And tommorow I'll get started working on a version of Thonia, a write up
similar to the PWA Geographic Entries, irregardless. We're about due for
some details on that, anyhow. We can compile ideas/suggestions from a
variety of folks, so if anyone has anything they think would be cool for
Thonia, lets talk 8-).

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:08:57 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Mirko Pellicioni <mirpelli@TIN.IT>
Subject:      Re: Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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Hi my name is Mirko, from Italy, sorry for my poor english.
Ihave read your e-mail and i have interest in this discussion.
I play Mystara with 2E of AD&D and I convert many class and monster from
OD&D.
The Universe for Mystara is different and I have make a Campaign to merge
Mystara in the AD&D multiverse. My player are very happy and the introduction
of new antagonist, (invasion of Drow from other dimension) have make very
nice session.
I respect cosmology and motivation of OD&D in my campaign but utilize
Planescape concept to make a Big epic Campaign.
This are one possible solution to integrate many different element.
Thanks for your attention.
mirpelli@tin.it

SteelAngel ha scritto:

> > I think that's what bothers me the most about these
> discussions, is the way
> > people continue to use OD&D to define Mystara. I think
> Mystara can break away
> > and become it's own entity. Systems are finite and subject
> to change, but
> > concepts and design are far more stable.
>
> But the concepts and design of Mystara are rooted in oD&D
> convention.
>
> You can rid the world of oD&D, and move Mystara to any other
> rules system, but all basic Elves will still be
> Fighter-Mages, Dwarves will never be Magic Users, etc.
>
> The rules defined what Mystara became. If you get rid of the
> rules, nothing changes except dice rolls.
>
> Ethan
>
> ********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:36:44 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Peter Balazs <a8927259@UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT>
Subject:      Re: Immortal Gods
In-Reply-To:  <389E1CC2.D34A2283@ewa.net>
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        Hi!

> I must be
>honest and say that I don't know anyone who's actually played in an Immortal
>campaign.

I have once played in an immortal campaign. I didn�t like the DMing much,
so I�ve stopped to play it.
As a DM I also plan to bring my campaign to immortal level one time( far,
far in  the future).
If you play AD&D (as I do) you need some system for the special abilities
and spheres granted to the priests of the Immortal. I base it on the lvl of
the Immortal and the point costs in Speheres & Powers. So higher level
Immortals have more powerfull priests. But I rule that these Immortals also
have far more priests, so an action to help a single priest in a dire
situation is much more likely with less powerfull deities. So it still
makes sense (rulewise) to follow a lesser Immortal.




***************************************************
                 Peter "Mr. XXL" Balazs
                     Wurlitzerg. 37/12
                        1160 Wien
                a8927259@unet.univie.ac.at
   http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs
****************************************************

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:55:51 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
Subject:      Re: Arachnophobia
In-Reply-To:  <60.d4e341.25cb5ab5@aol.com>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote:

> Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an Aranea?  is that like Spiderman or
> something?

You might want to check out the Savage Coast section on WotC's
homepage. There you'll find information about Aranea and the Savage Coast
in general. If you haven't dowloaded the stuff already, I heartily
recommend it.

Haavard

Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:49:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Site update, another map!
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Greetings.

Well, either I'm really getting good at this, or likely because the map is
smaller, but the Barbarian Kingdoms of the Savage Coast are done! (Also, I
dallied around with labels and extrapolating new territory with the Savage
Baronies, so it took longer.) Drop by and let me know what you think.

The only thing I'm not happy with thus far are the dominion borders. I had hoped
a single line would be adequate, but I can hardly see the things on the maps. A
dotted line of the same thickness as the dominion borders may work, but I have
yet to figure out a way to draw them economically. (I.E. so I don't go nuts.
Drawing outlines on the text is cramping up my hand as is.)

Next in line is naturally the nations of Renardy and Bellayne, the "Animal
Kingdoms" (Ha ha it is to laugh)... I don't know if I'll whip that one out as
quick or not, I need to get away from the monitor for a bit and let the pixels
disappear off my retinas...

IronWolf
http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:51:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Mystara Campaigns
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Greetings.

Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara
campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm
wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up
and see how other people are doing.

You can read my campaign logs at http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ if you haven't
visited yet.

IronWolf
"It's Specularum, damn it!"

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:31:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@PITT.EDU>
Subject:      2 HWR notes
In-Reply-To:  <389E958A.FD1F8425@ewa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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1) I'm planning on doing a Hutaaka HWR some time this year.  I only have a
vague idea of what to include and would love suggestions/input/others to
lend a hand.  If you wish to get involved in any way, just drop me a note
via email.

2) The Azca HWR, like the Nithia one, left out stats for a new item, I
just noticed (after having test-run the setting for one party already) -
the atlatl is listed as a cultural weapon in the player's book but no
stats are given (that I can find) for this item.  Were corrections printed
anywhere?

- Mischa

Each one of us has our own sorrows...it's no shame to take them to heart.
The only sin is to forget that others have theirs, too - Isgrimnur, "To
Green Angel Tower"

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:52:01 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Marco Fossati <marcogiulio.fossati@TIN.IT>
Subject:      R:      Re: [MYSTARA] Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)
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----- Original Message -----
From: IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Planescape & Mystara (was: Immortal Gods)


> SteelAngel wrote:
> >
> > But the concepts and design of Mystara are rooted in oD&D
> > convention.
>
> They started there, yes.
>
> > You can rid the world of oD&D, and move Mystara to any other
> > rules system, but all basic Elves will still be
> > Fighter-Mages, Dwarves will never be Magic Users, etc.
>
> I disagree on that, Mystara is not about a rigid class system that says
"You
> can't play this." If the Savage Coast's numerous new races are any
indication,
> Mystara is about the opportunity to play anything.
>
> > The rules defined what Mystara became. If you get rid of the
> > rules, nothing changes except dice rolls.
>
> Mystara, like any campaign world, grows beyond the original system. Rules
are
> not static, they are guidelines. The most important thing in any game is
to have
> fun. You tell players "You can't play an elven thief/dwarven monk because
> Mystara doesn't have that!" then you won't have any players. There are
plenty of
> other games and systems that don't restrict a player's choices.
>
> Actually, are you running a campaign at this time? I'd like to hear how
it's
> going, get some perspective on my own.
>
> IronWolf

Dear Ironwolf
 I'm from Italy and here it's difficult for me to find a lot of Mystara's
fans.
I ran for 3 years a campaign settled in Glantri at first and after they
crossed Darokin and Karameikos until PC's tried to reach Ierendi but their
ship sank. For now I'm waiting to enter in thePBEM of another listmember
settled also in Glantri and I'm looking for someone here in Italy but I'm
not lucky...
I saw your website, very good but I don't know too much about Savage Coast
>
> ********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:14:18 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:51:06 -0800 IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET> writes:
> Greetings.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently
> running Mystara
> campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online?
> I'm
> wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like
> to read up
> and see how other people are doing.

I currently have a campaign going that is finally entering final stages
(almost to 30 adventures!).  I have a brief summary of the first three
adventures, and four stories based on the first adventure on my website
under the rivatol seciton.


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:08:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Skothar:  Alphatia's forgotten eastern front
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On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:46:57 -0600 James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
writes:
> >
>The ability of other
> nations
> - Thyatis, Thonia, Minea, or any other notional power in Skothar or
> elsewhere - to transport sufficient forces to the continent of
> Alphatia to
> be even moderately threatening would require a strong fleet, capable
> of
> transporting a very strong army (strong in both numbers, because a
> lot of
> territory would have to be garissoned, and likely in quality,
> because none
> of these areas are likely to have any numerical advantage over the
> Alphatians).

Remember, during the Wrath war, the Glantrians are raising havoc all over
the main continent with magical terrorist attacks.  They're summoning
small armies of extra-planar creatures and setting them loose, they're
fireballing public places, teleporting in crack troops, etc.  That sort
of thing can tie down _huge_ numbers of troops,  especially when the
Alphatians wouldn't have any idea where in they're vast continent the
enemy would strike next.
During other wars, there is that island of 100 36th level wizards that
thyatis has that can do the same basic thing, and if Thyatis has that
many wizards that have achieved ultimate mastery (more, since there is a
long waiting list for estates on the island) it has many more lower level
high-level wizards.   And since Thyatians, on general, tend to be more
organized and patriotic than the Alphatians (the Ann Dupis, it could
quite likely muster more (or at least as much) effective magical force as
Alphatia.  All IMNSHO.


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:34:58 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject:      Re: Maps of Mystara's cities
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I am also working on a way to draw maps of the cities (probably with
Campaign cartographer, but otherwise with a new set of hex that i'll
have to draw).

--
Thibault Sarlat
ICQ 16622177.
My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr
Homepage  http://www.mystara.com.bi
Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone,
rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas.

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:10:49 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mad Bombers (was re. Skothar).
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>
> Remember, during the Wrath war, the Glantrians are raising havoc all over
> the main continent with magical terrorist attacks.  They're summoning
> small armies of extra-planar creatures and setting them loose, they're
> fireballing public places, teleporting in crack troops, etc.  That sort
> of thing can tie down _huge_ numbers of troops,  especially when the
> Alphatians wouldn't have any idea where in they're vast continent the
> enemy would strike next.
>
Right, and wrong (well, not "wrong" as such) - some significant disruption
can be caused by doing things like that, though unless the power has a real
reason to do so and isn't likely to face serious retribution, there's
little to actually *gain* by engaging in such behavior (you're not going to
conquer anything doing that. Teleported crack troops are likely to be de
facto "suicide squads". The potential downside is very great because most
Mystaran nations - Alphatia definately included - react more
"traditionally" to this kind of thing than modern IRL nations do; the
nation "sponsoring terrorism" is more likely to be invaded, like Chechnia,
than bombed briefly, like Lybia. Utter devistation isn't worth the likely
minimal benifit). Glantri had nothing to lose by doing what they did - they
were already painted with a big bullseye. But for Minean, the Jen, or
Thonia - they'd likely have to already be at war with Alphatia for some
reason to consider engaging in such activities.

        As far as tying down huge numbers of troops - this is more or less what
rear-echelon mobilization is for (I remember my Grandfather saying how he
was, albiet briefly, sent out to California to watch for a possible
Japanese invasion fleet early in '42. Then he got picked for OCS, followed
by parachute training - and after that sent to Europe. In other words, once
he was a better trained soldier, he wasn't used for such things). IMO, and
just IMO, the teleportation of monsters things requires more your "FBI"
types than large numbers of troops. The main purpose of these events (in
both Glantri & Alphatia) is, IMO, to give PCs something to do (cut down
monsters and mages) if they don't want to soldier it on grubby
battlefields.
        Some might say the analogy is to Northern Ireland, which did/does require
serious garrissoning - but that's probably the wrong analogy. There you
have a more or less entrenched movement, among a certain segment of the
population itself (which shields/protects them, allowing them to fade into
the backround). But what is happening here is more akin to the Ok City
bombing or World Trade Center bombing - things along those lines are less
likely to be prevented by stationing troops everywhere, and are more likely
to be dealt with by good, solid investigation & intellegence operations.
        This is, IMO, why doing something like formenting revolts in places like
Esterhold might be of somewhat more utility - even if they aren't a real
threat to Alphatia, that does tie down troops by forcing places to be
either garissoned or sacrificed. The similar way of doing something like
that on the mainland might be to spur slave revolts/uprisings. But for
Thyatis this would really be playing with fire because "two can play at
that game" (and perhaps *this* is one reason - but by no means the only
reason - why both empires fear that an all out war could destroy them
both). Sure, each uprising could be put down, but if things are suitably
enflamed and widespread then putting down each and garissoning places to
insure against them would definately tie down a lot of troops, as well as
totally ruining those pleasure trips to the contryside in springtime.
        Also, Thyatis could do the same trick Glantri did, and on a larger scale
(because of the Sclari mages & having Clerics, which Glantri does not) -
but that would definately lead to a "tit for tat" (Alphatia did respond to
Glantri) - and this type of war would be somewhat akin to a gradual,
continual exchange of missiles - slowly but steadily destroying both side's
infrastructure, towns, fortifications, cities, and civilizations. Probably
most significant sites (like the Imperial Palaces of both sides, etc.
Perhaps even major cities) are warded against direct attack in this
fashion, but a bit of creativity can circumvent such things, for better or
ill. Anyhow, all that would mean is that something would survive, but so
much would be destroyed that neither power would end the war with a smile
on their face.
        For various reasons this wasn't done in WotI. Even the exchanges between
Glantri & Alphatia were minimized in their impact (for example, there is no
indication that the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" event happened - if it
did, the map of Glantri City in G:KoM would have looked more like the map
of Zhentil Keep in "Ruins of" than like the map from Gaz3 that it
reproduces, and also there would be a lot of splatter marks where the
Thousand Wizards impacted when magic went away - what a way to go.)
        IMO, prolly both sides follow some tacit restrictions in the type of
things they usually do when at war - which is why Glantri's actions were so
apalling to the Alphatians ("don't they know that such things simply aren't
done? Its bad form."), and why Zandor's request re. just nuking one little
burg of their enemy seemed so outrageous to the Council ("doesn't *HE* know
that such things simply aren't done?") - the inconvenience can't explain
all of it, because such a thing would only take a day out of each Wizard's
life. A line in WotI implies that this is the case (". . .others. . .think
he is simply inviting disaster") - solely due to the doomsday weapon? Or is
it that they see the doomsday weapon itself as a manifestation of things
going to far, which can occur in many ways?
        This, and items like ANSWERER (Jeff Daly's creation, on Stan's site) would
help explain why Eriadna was willing to draw back from attempting a total
conquest of Thyatis - who knows what would have happened if that occured,
what the response would be (back against the wall with nothing to lose,
like Rad felt himself to be later, anything could have happened at that
point - the surprise was probably that Glantri was able to respond even
so).

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:19:30 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" <jenni@JAMM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Maps of Mystara's cities
In-Reply-To:  <389E91C2.ED514592@club-internet.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, thibault sarlat wrote:
> I am also working on a way to draw maps of the cities (probably with
> Campaign cartographer, but otherwise with a new set of hex that i'll
> have to draw).

  Speaking of Campaign Cartographer, I notice that they've made a map viewer
available for free download at their web site (http://www.profantasy.com/).
So, anyone who happens to have some maps made in CC, should consider making
them available on the web along with a link to Pro Fantasy's web site so
people can get the viewer. :-)

Jenni A. M. Merrifield
-=> strawberryJAMM <=-

--
  Jenni A. M. Merrifield   |  Designing to Requirements
  -=> strawberryJAMM <=-   |    And Walking on Water
   strawberry@jamm.com     |      Are Easy if Both
http://www.jamm.com/jenni/ |        Are Frozen

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:40:53 EST
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Master's Pawn <BoBoII@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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Greetings.

Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running
Mystara
campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm
wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read
up
and see how other people are doing.

You can read all about a band of intrepid adventures running through the X series against the Master. The game is running PBEM on the Phoenyx.net site, or go to http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/6239/.

The site is about a month behind the action, but you can read a brief summary, or go through the archives. The party representing the East is made up of a Veteran Darokin warrior, Karameikan scout, an Alfhiem sorcerer/soldier, an Longrunner bent on vengeance, a Darokin sea dog of Tanogoro ancestry, A Priest of Halav directed against the humanoid menace, a Trooper from the Shires. Along the way they've picked up a Sindian waterboy who turned out to be a mage in disguise, and a nomad warrior who is under a magical charm.

Check us out.

BoBo II

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:16:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         James Ruhland <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Skothar:  THONIA
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Here's the beginings of a version of Thonia, which can either be a thorn in
Alphatia's northeastern flank, a trading partner, or a bit of both. Anyhow,
this is just a rough draft version. Comments & suggestions welcomed.
___________________________________________________

   THONIA (Kingdom of, aka Empire of).

   Location: Northeastern Skothar, along the Bay of Thorin, north of
Esterhold.

   Area: Aproximately 600,000 sq mi. (+/-)

   Population: 750,000 (including 80,000 in the capital of Thorin) 90%
human, 1% elven, 1% dwarven, 1% halfling, 2% goblin, 2% hobgoblin, 2%
gnoll, 1% pegataur.

   Language: Thoniatian

   Government Type: Monarchy advised by a council of nobles, aka Senate.

   Industries: Fishing, cattle raising, horse breeding, ship building,
agriculture (poor), mining (iron in hills).

   Description: The bay of Thorin is bounded on the south by the penninsula
of Esterhold, in the east by relatively good lands and scattered forests,
and in the north by sub-artic steppelands and hills. Thonia controls the
eastern and northern shores of the bay of Thorin, as well as an
unremarkable streach of territory north and east of that (borders here are
very perimiable, the area inhabbited mostly by migratory clansmen with
their herds, who share the region with the scattered northern fringe of
Jennites).
   Thonia has one major city and several smaller towns. The capital is
Thorin, built atop the ruin of an ancient, pre-Blackmoor Thonian city, by
survivors of that great cataclysm. Thorin is surrounded by a seamless wall,
seemingly carved out of a single piece of stone, thrust up from the earth.
This wall arcs out into the Bay itself, forming a breakwater and creating
the city's port. The wall is immune to natural and unatural damage (such as
Earthquakes or spells), and is protected against normal, non-magical
missiles (including non-magic artillery). The battlements likewise protect
the defenders during time of war as if protected from evil/good
(irregardless of the alignment of the attackers). Numerous pieces of
artillery are mounted in and atop the towers that stud the walls. These are
operated by ancient mechanisms, allowing them to be aimed and fired with
only one crewman, who is protected by 90% cover. They are able to aim these
skyward against flying creatures or Skyships.
        Thorin itself is a large city, covering almost the same area as Sundsvall
does, but with a fraction of the population. Much of the interior is
parkland, fields, even small gardens or croplands, with the occasional
cows, chickens, or goats. The population has gradually dwindled for
centuries, if not milenia, and here and there can be found weed-choked
ruins (though few of these date back to the time of ancient Thonia or
Blackmoor - most of the older ruins are buried under several feet of
earth). The palace of the Thonian King (aka "Emperor," though usually only
outsiders call him that) is a monumental relic to ancient Thonian
architecture, with a gilded dome at its center and many large windows. The
palace is heated magically, and would be quite pleasant if it wasn't for
the jury-rigged towers and fortifications built into its sides, obvious
later (and somewhat clumsy) additions. The city is defended by a small but
elite Royal Guard force, some Royal Marines, and a force of Pegataurs
tasked with protecting Thonia against aerial attack.
        Many, if not most, Thonians live in the lands around the capital city.
These engage in farming and fishing. They use large galleys in warfare, and
large (if somewhat slow) sailing ships for trade and fishing.
        The rest of Thonia is divided into aproximately ten provinces, and is
inhabited mostly by herdsmen & ranchers (on the steppelands) and miners (in
the hill country). Scattered rustic towns and villages dot the coastland of
the Bay of Thorin, these mostly built of wood, surrounded by palisides, and
having none of the splendor of the city of Thorin. They are grim places,
social life centers around the local watering hole or tavern. There are few
inns, and foreigners are distinctly unwelcomed in these parts. Only in the
capital are accomodations made for outsiders, but they are usually treated
bruskly there as well - not rudely, but in a businesslike fashion.

   History: Thonia is a surviving remnant of the ancient Empire of Thonia,
which predated even Blackmoor. Its people are concious of their history,
but surviving in the rugged lands is enough of a challenge that they have
never managed to recapture their old glory. They reflect Antalian origin
(or, rather, the Antalians reflect a Thonian origin) in their appearance.
The history of Thonia since the destruction of Blackmoor has been one of
rebuilding, followed by the struggle to survive in their harsh environment.
        They felt the appearance of the Alphatians as a sort of insult, and rancor
at the prestige of the Alphatian Empire. At the time of Landfall the
Thonians were in the process of colonizing the continent to their
southeast, but only few and small settlements had been created -
exploration was just begining, as Thonia had only recently managed to
recover true seafaring capacity and had few ships. In essence, the arrival
of the Alphatians permanently restricted the Thonians to the region they
inhabit now, preventing them from ever recapturing the glories of their
lost empire.
        In the interval, the Thonians have occassionally fought with, but in other
times cooperated with, the Jennites to their south. These they see as
barbarians who "know their place." The Jennites are respectful of the
Thonians - not so much because they feel themselves inferior (which is what
the Thonians would like to believe), but because the Thonians have never
cared to try and invade the steppes of the Jennites (having enough
near-worthless lands of their own). As a result, when the Alphatians
attacked Esterhold 800 years ago, the Thonians and Jennites developed
closer ties, and see each other as a potential ally to keep the Alphatians
at bay.
        Almost of nessessity, trade sprang up between Thonia and Alphatia. This
trade was rather megre, however, as the lands of Thonia produced little
that the Alphatians wanted (if it had, they would simply have siezed it
outright). The Thonians often raided deeper into Skothar to capture slaves
to sell to the Alphatians in exchange for the wares the Alphatians
produced.
        When Alphatia sank, many thought the Thonians would try to take advantage
of this by marching into Esterhold, or at least helping the Jennites
recapture that penninsula. But Thonia did nothing. They seem instead
satisfied with the disapearance of the Alphatian continent, smugly happy
with the "pittiful state" of the surviving Alphatian kingdoms (which have
now formed the NACE) - there is little compasion or awareness that the
destruction of the Alphatian empire echos their own experience of long ago.
They are just happy that the long shadow cast by Alphatia has been removed,
and that now the "glory of elder Thonia will be revealed."
        Thus the Thonians scheme rather sadly and contemptably, living in their
past with no real energy to actually restore the glories they still dream
of and pantomime.

   Important Figures: King/Emperor Iyxis XXXIV (Human Male, LN, C16),
various Dukes.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:19:04 +0000
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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IronWolf wrote:
>
> Greetings.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara
> campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm
> wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up
> and see how other people are doing.
>

I'm running a Mystaran campaign set in the Savage Coast, but the logs on
my webpage are still only in Italian. Sorry!

--


                Giampaolo Agosta


agathokles@libero.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:03:16 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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--

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:51:06    IronWolf wrote:
>Greetings.
>
>Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara
>campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm
>wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up
>and see how other people are doing.
(rest snipped)

Well, I'm running a Mystara campaign using AD&D 2e and Player Option rules (modified heavily by my own house rules). I don't keep logs from it, but if I did it would probably be a bit boring, since we're playing through WotI, and we're doing all the typical things, like helping Darokin repel the Desert Nomads at the moment (they have to deal with the threat of the Manscorpions next time). I've added stuff like my 'Calamity Star' prophecies, but you can get that from Shawn's site if you're interested.

   - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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Date:         Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:11:29 +0200
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= <ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL>
Subject:      Re: sind vegetation
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>I would guess that he is referring to palms, dates, figs, and
other plants that are mentioned in the Bible.

Well these are/were found all over Israel, along with olive and citrus =
trees neer settlements.=20
I don't think that that is the vegetation you are looking for the Asanda =
valley.=20
There is no similarety (I think) between middle eastern and south asian =
vegetation. Even when you can find river basins in a desert climate in =
both, the plants will be very different.
Oh and by the way, exept for the most northern part, the Jordan valey is =
mostly free of vagatation, part for the riversides themselves that have =
several trees (Occashiuh?) and grasses.

Morphail (Ohad Shaham)
"and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race.
Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..."
Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show
Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at-   =
http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:53:04 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:03:16 +0100 The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
writes:
> --
> Well, I'm running a Mystara campaign using AD&D 2e and Player Option
> rules (modified heavily by my own house rules). I don't keep logs
> from it, but if I did it would probably be a bit boring, since we're
> playing through WotI, and we're doing all the typical things, like
> helping Darokin repel the Desert Nomads at the moment (they have to
> deal with the threat of the Manscorpions next time).

Speaking of which, Stalker, let me know if the Siege of Darokin thingie I
posted was any use at all.  I'd like to see how it worked in someone
else's campaign.


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:57:05 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         erewan laubgaenger <IBON@GMX.DE>
Subject:      Re: 2 HWR notes
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> 2) The Azca HWR, like the Nithia one, left out stats for a new item, I
> just noticed (after having test-run the setting for one party already) -
> the atlatl is listed as a cultural weapon in the player's book but no
> stats are given (that I can find) for this item.  Were corrections printed
> anywhere?

Hello i hope i can help
The Atlatl is curved piece of wood with a handgrip that is used to propel
Javelins greater distances. A Javelinis placed along a ridge in the Atlatl,
and
then the wielder throws the Javelin while holding on to the Atlatl.
The Atlatl itself is not a weapon and causes no damage.
Some babarian cultures use Darts instead of Javelins when using  the Atlatl

The Atlatl cost 1gp
Wt (lb.) 1
Size S
Speed 5
and does Damage by used missle (Javelin or Dart)
ROF 1        S=3, M=6, L=9

info:
The Babarian Handbook (AD&D 2th)

see you on mailinglist
IBON

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Date:         Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:10:18 +0100
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
Organization: Angelfire  (http://email.angelfire.com:80)
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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--

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:53:04    Aaron E Nowack wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:03:16 +0100 The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
>writes:
>> --
>> Well, I'm running a Mystara campaign using AD&D 2e and Player Option
>> rules (modified heavily by my own house rules). I don't keep logs
>> from it, but if I did it would probably be a bit boring, since we're
>> playing through WotI, and we're doing all the typical things, like
>> helping Darokin repel the Desert Nomads at the moment (they have to
>> deal with the threat of the Manscorpions next time).
>
>Speaking of which, Stalker, let me know if the Siege of Darokin thingie I
>posted was any use at all.  I'd like to see how it worked in someone
>else's campaign.
>

I will, but to tell you the truth I really can't use just the way you posted it, because the PCs were with the Karameikos troops that as they travelled to Darokin's defense - I played diplomatic adventures similar to the ideas in Red Arrow, Black Shield (I don't have that module, but I did read through it once), so that the PCs had to go to various nations and ask for allies for Darokin. Naturally the answer was alway "Well, maybe, but could you do us a slight favor first?" ;)

Still I do appreciate the stuff you posted, and actually you did make it before we played again, since we still haven't (everybody has such busy schedules - aaarrrgghhh), so I might really get to use some of your ideas, I just have to tweak them a bit, which I mostly end of doing anyway. The idea of a wyvern-riding wizard naturally really appeals to me (being someone who really likes wizards) - it'll scare the life out of the PCs, which I love doing, so thanks! :)

We're set to play thursday next week at the moment, but... Well, I don't know - maybe that'll be canceled too (I'm not so optimistic at the moment). Anyway, I'll let you know what I come up with as I get to it. Fair enough? Thanks again.

   - The Stalker



Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:30:18 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Neal <neal1@TECINFO.COM>
Subject:      Thonia
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James i love your ideas. may i work with you on getting the war machine and
battle system stats for thonia's armed forces?

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Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:11:52 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:10:18 +0100 The Stalker <alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM>
writes:
> --
>
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:53:04    Aaron E Nowack wrote:
> >Speaking of which, Stalker, let me know if the Siege of Darokin
> thingie I
> >posted was any use at all.  I'd like to see how it worked in
> someone
> >else's campaign.
> >
>
> I will, but to tell you the truth I really can't use just the way
> you posted it, because the PCs were with the Karameikos troops that
> as they travelled to Darokin's defense - I played diplomatic
> adventures similar to the ideas in Red Arrow, Black Shield (I don't
> have that module, but I did read through it once), so that the PCs
> had to go to various nations and ask for allies for Darokin.
> Naturally the answer was alway "Well, maybe, but could you do us a
> slight favor first?" ;)

Yep.  I did some of that too, except sucess was quickly followed with the
realization that ally X wasn't planning to send troops till some
unspecified future date (with the only ally that actually sent troops on
time being Alfheim, which of course weakened its defenses allowing the
shadow elf takeove etc.)

> Still I do appreciate the stuff you posted, and actually you did
> make it before we played again, since we still haven't (everybody
> has such busy schedules - aaarrrgghhh),

Let me tell you about the time it took three months for me to get an
adventure going (and I was only trying to get one person to play too!)

> so I might really get to use
> some of your ideas, I just have to tweak them a bit, which I mostly
> end of doing anyway.

Of course.

>The idea of a wyvern-riding wizard naturally
> really appeals to me (being someone who really likes wizards) -
> it'll scare the life out of the PCs, which I love doing, so thanks!
> :)

The trick is never to say wyvern.  Oh, and the nasty thing is to have the
wyvern open its mouth and the party be engulfed in flame.  What really
happened was the wizard cast fireball, but the players will think they've
got a red dragon on their hands... :)

> We're set to play thursday next week at the moment, but... Well, I
> don't know - maybe that'll be canceled too (I'm not so optimistic at
> the moment). Anyway, I'll let you know what I come up with as I get
> to it. Fair enough? Thanks again.

Sure.  I hope you manage to get the players together. :)


                                                   Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:34:59 -0800
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         IronWolf <ironwolf@EWA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Mystara Campaigns
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Aaron E Nowack wrote:
>
> Yep.  I did some of that too, except sucess was quickly followed with the
> realization that ally X wasn't planning to send troops till some
> unspecified future date (with the only ally that actually sent troops on
> time being Alfheim, which of course weakened its defenses allowing the
> shadow elf takeove etc.)
>
Lots of war campaigns and old modules in use, very interesting. Myself, I'm
planning as a primary campaign focus is a grand conspiracy to unite the five
tribes of Yazak under the banner of Plaktur and overrun the entire Savage Coast.
I've not worked out who all the players are yet, but they include Pyre the
Crimson Dragon, a shadow elf priest of Azcanteotl who resides in Nimmur (And
wears the masks and makeup of the Nimmurians), a fellow monk of the same school
as one of the players, a Hulean of unknown identity as yet, some inheritors, and
a half-orc warrior who will be made 'king of the Hordes of Plaktur'.

My players don't know this yet, of course. :)

IronWolf

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:43:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender:       Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From:         Ranma Al'Thor <ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Feebleminded Mortal Identities
In-Reply-To:  <389FAB02.7E14291C@ewa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Here's a question.  Immortal takes on Mortal Identity.  Mortal Identity
has misfortune to be the victim of a feeblemind spell.  Can the
Feebleminded victim successfully abandon the Mortal Identity to another
form, or are they stuck until it's undone?  (ie, how much of their
brainpower needs to be functional to change forms?)



John Walter Biles :  MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas
ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rhea@tass.org              http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rhea@maison-otaku.net      http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/

Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are
HE and other types above 50 mm.
--Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery"

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