========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:31:29 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Mystara FAQ v7.9 Comments: To: FMML MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mystara FAQ version 7.9 by Herv� Musseau The latest version of this document can be found at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/Mystara/mystfaq.txt Table of contents: Introduction to Mystara. (no updates) Geography and History of Mystara. (no updates) Personalities and Immortals of Mystara. (7.9 fixed a typo) Miscellaneous. (7.6 added 1 shop, 7.6 updated Shawn's site URL, 7.6 updated Leroy's site URL, 7.7 added Mystara chat link, 7.8 added French Mystara Mailing List link) Spoiler warning: This FAQ contains information that is for the DM's eyes only. If you are a player in a Mystara campaign, by reading further you may spoil the fun of having to figure things out (especially if you read most of section 3 and part of section 4). If you intend to read the FAQ nonetheless, I advise to not read the answers before asking yourself whether you should know the answer in-game or not, and skip it if need be. Introduction to Mystara. Q: What is Mystara? A: Mystara is an imaginary world created by TSR as a campaign world for roleplaying games using the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. Q: What is a roleplaying game? A: Roleplaying games are games in which people play the role of imaginary fantastic characters like warriors or wizards and try to complete an adventure under the guidance of a game master. Q: I never heard of Mystara, but I know a setting called the Known World which looks pretty the same. What's the difference? A: Mystara got a name as a world only recently; before that, it was often referred to as the Known World, although Mystara is more than just the Known World. Geography and History of Mystara. Q: So, what's Mystara? The Known World and what else? A: Mystara is basically composed of 2 main parts, the Outer World and the Hollow World, plus 2 moons, and some other exotic settings. Q: A Hollow World? A: Yes. Mystara, unlike our earth, is hollow, an empty sphere. It has an internal sun that lights the interior world, making it inhabitable. It holds old civilizations that are now extinct on the Outer World, placed there by the Immortals with strong magic preventing them from evolving much or dying away. The only entrances to the Hollow World are through underground passages between the two worlds, and through the holes that stand in place of the north and south poles. Q: And the Outer World? A: The Outer World is mostly like our Earth. It comprises: * the Known World (now called Old World), where the most civilized countries are located, * Alphatia (only before AC 1009), * the Savage Coast and Hule, * the southern continent, called Davania, * the eastern continent, called Skothar. Q: Why is Alphatia part of Mystara only up to AC 1009? A: Because Alphatia, which is a large continent east of the Known World, sank into the ocean in AC 1009, at the end of the major event called Wrath of the Immortals. It is now a floating continent located in the Hollow World. Q: What exactly is Wrath of the Immortals? A: Wrath of the Immortals (or WotI) is an epic campaign that TSR published to update the Known World. It deals with the Great War that involves the major countries of Mystara and that was caused by the Immortals to obtain control of the Nucleus of the Spheres, a powerful artifact located under Glantri. At the end of the war, Alphatia sinks, Glantri and Thyatis have suffered dramatically from the conflict and three new powers enter the political scene of Mystara: the Heldannic Territories, the Hagiarchy of Hule and the "revamped" Kingdom of Karameikos. Q: On the continental map published in the Master DM's book, there are some empires I've never read anything about in other products and on the list, like the Empire of Dorphin IV or the Empire of the Great Khan. Do they exist? Where can I find information about these? A: The map in the Master set is "wrong, wrong, wrong!" In the series of articles written by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine, the first in the series (Dragon #153) explains this all. The map was released by a very imaginative Thyatian, and wrongly accepted for the truth. There is no Empire of Dorphin IV, no Empire of the Great Khan, etc. Also, as you probably guessed, the size of the Thyatian Empire was largely exaggerated on this map... Q: I've already heard of the Known World, and of the Hollow World too, but never as Mystara. What does all this mean? A: This is because Mystara is a very old world, one of the oldest created by TSR, and, as TSR grew, so did Mystara. All of these product lines are relevant to Mystara: * Mystara, of course, * the Known World and most stuff that were made for D&D (as opposed to AD&D) like these old good modules B and X, or the Gazetteers, * the Hollow World, * Red Steel/the Savage Coast, * Blackmoor. Also, some products bearing the label First Quest are related to Mystara. Q: Blackmoor? I know a Blackmoor, but it's part of Greyhawk, isn't it? A: Blackmoor was, like Greyhawk, the campaign world of one of TSR's founder, Dave Arneson. It was later placed in both Greyhawk and the Known World (as a past kingdom in the later), effectively making three Blackmoors exist. It seems there is no further relation between the two Blackmoors of Mystara and Greyhawk, however, although some people made the assumption; on the other hand, Judge's Guild's Blackmoor likely has much in common with Mystara's, as the DA series for the Known World was also written by Dave Arneson (so that JG First Fantasy Campaign is considered Mystara-relevant). Q: Where is it located? A: Blackmoor was a techno-magical kingdom that blew itself up a few millennia ago. The event shifted the planet's axis and Blackmoor is now the north pole. Sources are contradictory as to where Blackmoor stands; some place it on Brun, some on Skothar. Arguments in favor of Brun are the position of the Inn Between the Worlds and the Nucleus of the Sphere, and the fact that the Known World stands there; this is the solution proposed in some Gazetteers. Arguments in favor of Skothar are its sort of canonical status, and the feeling that all civilizations should not systematically come from the Known World; this is the solution proposed in the Hollow World box. Note that, if you consider the Hollow World solution to be the truth in your campaign, the map in the box does have a typo : the names of Blackmoor and Thonia have been reversed (Blackmoor was north of the Empire of Thonia according to all other sources). Bruce Heard's opinion on this matter : "Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologist on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonizations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara! :)" So officially the answer is Skothar. Q: Ok, and now what's Red Steel? A: Red Steel is a setting that is part of Mystara (west of the Known World), although it was released as a stand-alone setting. Personalities and Immortals of Mystara. Q: I have a player of the Church of Karameikos, and I want to give him an Immortal, I suppose that it's a church with many Immortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in Gaz 1 I didn't find any list of Immortals... A: These are the immortals of the Church of Karameikos, as told by Bruce Heard in an old Dragon Magazine: Asterius (Eternal of Thought), Leader Kagyar (Eternal of Matter) Ilsundal (Hierarch of Thought) Valerias (Hierarch of Matter) Vanya (Empyreal of Time). Also, although Chardastes is a native Traladaran Immortal, he is venerated through the auspices of the Church of Karameikos, not the Church of Traladara. This is extrapolated from info in B1-9 In Search of Adventure. The Immortals of the Church of Traladara are: Halav Petra Zirchev. Q: You spoke of Immortals, what are they? Are they Gods? Powers? A: Mystara has a different pantheon when compared to other D&D settings. Most notably, it has no gods, but beings called Immortals. Immortals are mortals who, through their deeds, have reached a higher status granting them more power than mere mortals. Basically, however, Immortals are not very different from Gods of other settings. Q: Is Jaggar von Drachenfelds the Star Dragon? A: No. According to Bruce Heard's article in Dragon #170 http://www.tsr.com/Dragon/Backissues/170jun91/170FromHatchlingTo.txt he became the Star Dragon for a brief period but relinquished the title for absolution. Q: Is Rad gone after Wrath? A: No, he's been absorbed into the Radiance, and some of his life force was used to lessen the drain of the artifact on Mystara's magic (thus there is only a Day of Dread each year, and not a week as in Wrath). Rad is not dead though, but he has been put into a slumbering state to reflect on his deeds (and hopefully change). This is covered in detail in the module Mark of Amber. Q: So is Rad back after Mark of Amber? A: The outcome of the module may vary from campaign to campaign, as the actions of the PCs decide his fate. The module's three outcomes are: 1. He returns as a mortal with no chance of being sponsored back to Immortality and no access to the Radiance (failure); 2. He returns as a mortal but can become an Immortal again sometime (normal success and most likely outcome); 3. He returns as a full Immortal (complete success). Later products avoid the issue, and the general consensus is that he should return but be left in the background, keeping low profile for some time, either rebuilding his following (if an Immortal) or attempting to reach Immortality again (if mortal). Few favor him becoming a mere mortal as most love him as an NPC. Q: Does the Radiance draw from Energy or Entropy after Wrath? A: In Wrath, the Radiance is altered to draw from Entropy instead of Energy. Yet in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, the rules for the Radiance are exactly the same as in Gaz3, stating that it drains from Energy. This is a mistake in G:KoM; the authors overlooked that event in Wrath and forgot to update the info from Gaz3. Thus the new rules for the Radiance are undefined, as are the effects of Entropy-draining. Various suggestion have been made on the MML, though. Q: Where is Teldon? Is he dead? A: This is a short excerpt from Dragon Magazine #207 about Teldon's fate: "One of the attractions of the Magicians' Guild, its location in Karameikos' largest city, was its downfall. Such a collection of powerful (and often egotistical or secretive) mages in one location created great potential for conflict. The final straw was the creation of a mechanical beholder by one of the more advanced apprentices, powered by an Immortal's artifact. The resulting creation was turned loose in downtown Specularum, leveling a good section of the South End. The creation was defeated by the head of the Magicians' Guild, Teldon, but at great cost. Both mage and monster disappeared in a pure white ball of fire, and while they are assumed to have both been destroyed, they may instead have been teleported to some far-off location. The fact remained that the Magicians' Guild proved itself too dangerous to remain in Specularum, and lost one of its most valuable supporters." Q: And Bargle, where is he? A: After the fall of the Black Eagle Barony, Bargle is an itinerant villain that pops up here and there. He can easily be used as a recurring villain who the PCs bump into way too often (to their taste). He has been spotted in various place, including Esterhold and Serraine (always helping the evil guys, of course), but can have business just anywhere you wish. Well, good ole Bargle. Q: Is Kol a Shadow Elf or a Kobold? A: Earlier sources always presented Kol as a kobold who, using the rules from Gaz10, could cast spells. In Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, he is said to be one of the deformed shadowelf babies raised by the humanoids, thus explaining both his high intelligence and spellcasting abilities under the AD&D rules. It is both an interesting plot, and a disappointment to many, as it removes again the humanoids any glint of chance that they can achieve something by themselves. Many people ignore that sentence in G:KoM (or ignore the box altogether, preferring good old Gaz3), and some love the potential of that plot. As always, use whatever version suits your campaign and your taste best. Miscellaneous. Q: You mentioned something about D&D not being AD&D. What does that mean? A: Mystara was the world designed to be used with the rules of D&D (often called OD&D to better distinct it from AD&D and from the generic term D&D which could mean both; OD&D stands for Old D&D or Original D&D - note that some few people call it BD&D for Basic D&D to distinguish it from even older rules). It appeared in the old boxed rules: the Expert box, the Companion box and the Master box. Most of the earlier modules designed for D&D were set in this world. Recently, however, Mystara has been converted to AD&D (along with Red Steel), but many people who play in Mystara do it with the old rules (or their reediting, Rules Cyclopedia). Q: When I read stuff about Mystara I keep seeing acronyms I cannot understand like WotI or PWA. What do they mean? A: There is a list of Mystara relevant acronyms at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/Mystara/acronyms.html Q: I heard that the Mystara line was canceled. Is this true? A: It is unfortunately true. And Red Steel is canceled too. Some novels pertaining to Mystara may be released as part of the First Quest line, and modules may be part of the Odyssey line. AFAIK, there is no such products in preparation however, though Wizards of the Coast (which bought TSR) has expressed its willingness to publish material for dead worlds, but never namely mentioned Mystara. Keep faith. Joshuan's Almanac was the last product of Mystara (to be precise the novel "The Black Vessel" has been released after, and to be even more precise it deals with the Savage Coast) and the Savages Baronies the last of Red Steel (except for online exclusives). Q: But I saw in TSR's 97 preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR has released these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com and http://www.tsr.com. Q: So, if TSR has dropped the line, how can I get new material for Mystara? A: There are many people on the web who love Mystara and have taken upon themselves to keep Mystara alive (and well alive). There is a mailing list dedicated to Mystara (MML) where people discuss together about it, exchanging ideas, points of view, and more. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com. In the body, have the single line: subscribe Mystara-L . It has 278 people, as of June 99. As a comparison, there are 395 people on the Realms list, TSR's flagship world (April 98). There is a French Mystara Mailing List (FMML) too, to join go to http://www.mystara.com.bi/ put your email in the designated area and you're on. There is also the TSR Mystara Message Board (MMB) at http://tsronline.wizards.com:80/mb/system/addnewuser.shtml where discussion revolves mostly around alternate Mystaras. There are also many pages around the net dedicated to Mystara, sometimes with lots of interesting materials. Some of these pages are organized into a Webring, check http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html for info about the Mystara webring. Now more than ever you should express your views on how Mystara should be brought back at http://CWSpot.com/Mystara/SaveMystara or join the SaveMystara Writer's Group whose goal is to get as many adventures and articles to the periodicals as we can. Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara mailing list? A: The digests are collected at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/MailingListArchive/ and the oldest ones (prior to 1998) can be found at ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-digest/ However for your convenience the most interesting articles the list has come up with are collected and sorted on Shawn's page at http://dnd.starflung.com Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara message board? A: There is no archiving of the board. However for your convenience the most interesting articles the board has come up with are collected and sorted on Shawn's page at http://dnd.starflung.com Q: Where can I find a complete list of the material published for Mystara? A: The most complete lists to my knowledge is at http://dnd.starflung.com/prodlist.html It includes rulebooks and modules published by TSR, Mystara-relevant Judge Guild supplements, a list of various magazine #s that contain adventures, rules or world description pertaining to Mystara, novels, TSR net resources, and Clark Ashton Smith stories related to Averoigne. All of these are ranked according to compatibility with Mystara (explicit, implicit, compatible, etc.) and the type of product (campaign source, rules supplement, adventure, etc.). The list of the Dragon magazines that mention Mystara, including the Voyage of the Princess Ark series, can be found at http://dnd.starflung.com/dragon.html . Q: And where can I buy those products? A: Since the Mystara line is out of print, it is difficult to find them. If you're lucky you can find them in any shop that sells RPG stuff, or buy second-hand books. Some places where you can find Mystara stuff on the web: http://www.dragontrove.com/listing.html http://www.titan-games.com/ http://www.hitpointe.com http://www.eskimo.com/~darkh/ http://www.ida.net/users/groverm/sleeping.dragon/sdh.html http://www.djhobby.com/catalog/index.html http://www.sagesguild.com/ http://www.crazyegors.com/ http://www.sentrybox.com/ http://members.aol.com/aleeder454/ http://www.cyberdungeon.com/store/catalogue/dungeon.html the newsgroup rec.games.frp.marketplace and I got a special page for all Mystara books at Amazon.com: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/amazon.html Q: Where can I find the FAQ for the Mystara mailing list? A: Check at http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mmlfaq.htm or http://www2.crosswinds.net/~malacoda/mmlfaq.html AFAIK there is no plain text version of this FAQ. Q: Is there a Mystara chat? A: yes: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/travelersofmystara . ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:49:25 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Greetings. > > Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara > campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm > wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up > and see how other people are doing. Well I'm running a group right now, its my first PBEM game, so I'm still working out some of the bugs (still having a little trouble deciding how to run combats). The webpage is mostly up to date. The status section is only a few minutes old (minutes of game time that is, about 2 weeks of real time) the transcripts however are about a day and a half (again, campaign time) behind. Read all (or at least most) about them at: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/campaign.html I'm using AD&D 2nd edition (without that players options stuff, don't get me started.....) > > You can read my campaign logs at http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ if you haven't > visited yet. I'll try to remember to take a gander. > > IronWolf > "It's Specularum, damn it!" "No, No, NO! It's Briansville!" (overheard at one of my sessions. I've been waiting for a long time to reply to one of your messages so that I could use that one.) :) Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:13:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: The Three- Prologue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igorov Tower, Boldavia, principalities of Glantri. "Tell me more, pawn!" Screamed the usually quiet dark prince. "I have traveled long master, and I am in dire need of mortal soul power = to feed upon, I beg the almighty one for a drop of spirit!" the = transparent wraith looked almost non existent. "No! you insignificant creation! I can destroy you and send you to the = pits for your impudence! You will not be nourished until you finish your = story. I need to know exactly who they are, what are they capable of, = and where can I find them." "Master, as I told you they are not at all as powerful as you are... = they do not have the great arcane powers of wizardry, nor are they = touched by the dark hand of the Roaring One." "That is besides the point! I have heard about the ceremony that can = create a Bride and Groom vampires, but never have I heard of three, and = never have I heard of vampires that hold these powers they have." The = baron of Igorov never looked so upset. The undead spirit did not know = what to make of this new state of mind in his master. "Maybe like you, sire, they are in favor of a power from beyond?" "What did you say?!" the prince's echoing voice boomed through the hall. "I meant, what if those three younglings are under the protection of = some demon or god? That could have given them their unique powers..." Morphail seemed puzzled, his preciously burning eyes have gone into a = state of contemplation. Without a thought the powerful Nosferatu moved = his left hand toward the middle keyboard of the great organ. With but a = few notes, the wraith felt as if he fed upon the spirits of a dozen = lives, sweet innocent lives. With the white glow back in his body, the = wraith was about to depart from the hall. "Wait. I need you to bring me = one of my spell books. The one about ancient Taraldaran magic. And also = heat up the Telportation chamber. Tell Slavykiov and send a message to = Boris about my departure." As the wraith gladly departed for his = assignments, Morphail has begun casting divinative and protective = ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:07:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: 2 HWR notes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > 1) I'm planning on doing a Hutaaka HWR some time this year. I only have a > vague idea of what to include and would love suggestions/input/others to > lend a hand. If you wish to get involved in any way, just drop me a note > via email. Would it be possible to tie this in with the Outer World Hutaakan Valley in Karameikos? I recently used a modified version of B10 in my campaign and i'm thinking about involving these furry critters a bit more. I'd love to help, but i can't promise to participate to any great extent, but id love to offer comments and share my ideas... H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:48:21 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Criptonite Criptonite Subject: Nentsun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the map of Mystara, on Skothar, there is a place called the Nentsun Plateau and the Nentsun Coast. I ran into another Nentsun reference in the first Blackmoor module. It says "Before there was Thyatis - before there was Hyboria - before there was the land of the Norwold - before the cruel Nentsun built their longships or .....". Is there any more information on "Nentsun"? --- -- --RR ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:23:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns Ironwolf wrote: >Greetings. > >Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara >campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm >wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up >and see how other people are doing. Well, I have logs from my campaign on my geocities site (see URL below). It's due for an update (more than one actually, just haven't had the time), but anyone's free to check it out. I usually include a DM Notes section to provide more information on the various things I put into my campaign. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Nentsun >On the map of Mystara, on Skothar, there is a place called the Nentsun >Plateau and the Nentsun Coast. I ran into another Nentsun reference in the >first Blackmoor module. It says "Before there was Thyatis - before there was >Hyboria - before there was the land of the Norwold - before the cruel Nentsun >built their longships or .....". Is there any more information on "Nentsun"? Maybe the people of Nentsun were related to the Skandaharians? Or, as an ancient file on the MML (c. 1996 or so) speculated that the current inhabitants of the Nentsun region are an Inuit-like culture, maybe their ancestors were Asiatic sea-reavers, who remained in their lands after the GRoF and adapted to the change in climate? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:47:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Site update Hi all, there is no in my site third part of the Glantris political history. http://sivut.koti.tpo.fi/wallemaki Harri M�ki Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:22:01 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Nentsun] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff Gander wrote: > >Maybe the people of Nentsun were related to the Skandaharians? Or, as an= >ancient file on the MML (c. 1996 or so) speculated that the current >inhabitants of the Nentsun region are an Inuit-like culture, maybe their= >ancestors were Asiatic sea-reavers, who remained in their lands after th= e >GRoF and adapted to the change in climate? Maybe they're connected somehow with "Ninsun" who is an Immortal mentione= d in the Master DM's book (some sort of artifact was created by that person- w= as it Humbaba's Glaring Eye, maybe? I don't recall...) Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:26:02 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > James i love your ideas. may i work with you on getting the war machine and > battle system stats for thonia's armed forces? > Sure. E-mail me at: jruhlconob@sprynet.com and we'll put something together. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:29:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Mad Bombers (was re. Skothar). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From a discussion in the Alphatian Sea group: I think important candidates for powers that kept Alphatia in check would be Cestia and Oceania and the Island of Everfeed (which I think is elven). A similar thing, if I remember correctly, is suggested somewhere in Dawn of the Emperors. I think it says Cestia and Oceania are also somewhat described in the basic-or-so book. I like the Thonia idea recently posted on the MML, but think the nation shouldn't be too strong since it would be better known otherwise. In my own campaign I also added a new Alphatian colony on the coast north of Verdan called Thalasia, a hostile Dwarven kingdom in the mountains east of Thalasia, called Thorin, then Thonia would be north of Thalasia and west of Thorin. And in the woods south of Verdan is a newly discovered elven kingdom Sylvania, who recently trekked westward Skothar. Greetings, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:31:37 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Feebleminded Mortal Identities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Here's a question. Immortal takes on Mortal Identity. Mortal Identity > has misfortune to be the victim of a feeblemind spell. Can the > Feebleminded victim successfully abandon the Mortal Identity to another > form, or are they stuck until it's undone? > Immortal minds are immune to all mental attacks from mortal sources, even when they are in Mortal Identities, though they can pretend to be affected. (This rule is in Gold Box, Player's Guide, p.6, under "Saving Throws.") ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:34:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Mad Bombers (was re. Skothar). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "And in the woods south of Verdan is a newly discovered elven kingdom Sylvania, who recently trekked westward Skothar." about this, there was a very good work made on this subject on the french MML and which only waits for translation -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:34:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: The Three- Prologue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am eager to know what's coming next..... -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:51:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland ha scritto: > > > > James i love your ideas. may i work with you on getting the war machine > and > > battle system stats for thonia's armed forces? > > > Sure. E-mail me at: jruhlconob@sprynet.com and we'll put something together. New forces to plot against Alphatia? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:55:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a well going 4 years succesful campaign in a grey Mystara where my players are currently trying to stay off Thyatis of AC 1008, they are from Darokin, but more info will come soon...when the Legend of Zargon will arrive on the MML... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:04:01 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns In-Reply-To: <389E958A.FD1F8425@ewa.net>; from ironwolf@EWA.NET on Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:51:06AM -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:51:06AM -0800, IronWolf wrote: > Greetings. > > Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list are currently running Mystara > campaigns? And if so, do you have any logs of your sessions online? I'm > wondering because I'm running my own game at the moment and I'd like to read up > and see how other people are doing. Like most campaign logs, mine are so in need of an update... http://sprucemoose.ie/dnd/ although one of my players has lots and lots of notes on our latest campaign at http://www.esatclear.ie/~koranov/ (including such delights as the School of Magecraft in Karameikos, the Fall of Glantri and some wacky Heldanners in a flying ship...) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:10:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Luca Toni Subject: Hawk and Falcons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03D9_01BF7268.2B4E9A00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03D9_01BF7268.2B4E9A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey boys I'm looking for the stats of some monster, such as HAWK and FLCONS. My PG has the skill of falconery, ability to train animals like hawk and falcons, teaching 'em to fight and to carry little objects. Has anyone got some stats of those animals (and some other specify about falconery)? Thanx Luca Toni newspell@hotmail.com=20 www.geocities.com/area51/domension/3121 ------=_NextPart_000_03D9_01BF7268.2B4E9A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey boys
   I'm looking for = the stats of=20 some monster,
such as HAWK and FLCONS. My = PG has the=20 skill of
falconery, ability to train = animals like=20 hawk
and falcons, teaching 'em to = fight and to=20 carry
little objects.
Has anyone got some stats of = those=20 animals
(and some other specify about = falconery)?
 
Thanx
 
          &nbs= p;          =20     Luca Toni
   =20             &= nbsp;newspell@hotmail.com=20
www.geocities.com= /area51/domension/3121
------=_NextPart_000_03D9_01BF7268.2B4E9A00-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:15:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit POLL RESULT: What is your preferred nation in Mystara? Votes 42 of 196 Alfheim 5% Alphatia 7% (1/3 Limn, 1/3 Blackheart) Bellayne 2% Darokin 11% Shires 1% Glantri 20% Hule 5% Karameikos 16% Nithia 2% Northern Reaches 1% Norwold 2% Rockhome 2% Serraine 1% Thyatis 12% Wendar 8% Ylaruam 5% Don't know 2% This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example of how many votes I need!!! George Hrabovsky John Walter Biles Leroy Van Camp III Marco Dalmonte Marco Giulio Fossati Michael III Mysteria Patrick Sullivan Peter Balazs and many many many more VOTE!!!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:16:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shame on He who adminster the List!!!! -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:18:05 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mad Bombers (was re. Skothar). MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I like the Thonia idea recently posted on the MML, but think the nation > shouldn't be too strong since it would be better known otherwise. > Well, there are a couple reasons why Thonia isn't better known than it is, but IMO those are mostly game-related rather than (IC) world-related: not much is known about any of the areas east of Alphatia, in Skothar or elsewhere, mainly because the game designers didn't get that far in detailing the world (Who knows - if the line had continued rather than being canceled, there might be a "Minea Gazeteer" by now, and more general info on lots of places in Skothar & elsewhere). Thonia is somewhat known to gamers who own the "Blackmoor" modules, and is probably somewhat known to scholars in Mystara - but it isn't more widely known among the general population, mainly for the reason you give: despite Thonia's pretentions and ancient history, it isn't very prominent in "modern" Mystara. The Thonia I depicted in this version was as a result of a thread that wanted to explore Alphatia's "eastern front", and the dangers it may have posed to Alphatia. So I did make Thonia strong enough that it could serve the purpose of folks who wanted it in that sort of role: containing Alphatia in the east. But I don't think I made them too strong, though I do suppose one might get that impression, so I'll explain further the abilities and limitations this Thonia has. There are several kinds of "strength" - I'd say Thonia is "tough" but not "powerful". Population is probably one of the ways in which you think they appear too strong - that one's easy: if for your purposes there are too many Thonians, just lower the population from 750,000 to 600,000 (I'd recomend against going lower than that, because otherwise the Alphatians probably would have conquered them). Thonia has some assets, but their "best" stuff is mostly fixed, the protections around the capital. The walls: IMO, and just IMO, many if not most major Mystaran cities should have strong protections, greater than just "mundane" fortifications. The Thonians can't move these walls anywhere - and there is a strong hint in the materiel I described that shows they are unable to duplicate them (the reference to their other settlements, villiages & towns, being protected by pallisades - not even stone walls). Similar with the artillery that defends the capital: these have "ancient" mechanisms - IMO, they can't be moved, and the Thonians cannot build more whenever they want (repairing damaged ones might be within their capabilities. But they can't load up new warships with this type of artillery, for example - they're "reduced" to using normal siege engines). The Pegataurs are another way they might seem strong, but IMO that's appropriate because Pegataurs formed about 25% of the "Thonian Mercenaries" unit that appeared in M2 "Vengeance of Alphaks." The Thonians don't have any other aerial assets. The Thonia I described is somewhat pathetic and impoverished - in order to buy stuff the Alphatians can produce (which implies that the Thonians don't produce enough of this stuff, stuff that they want in order to carry on the veneer of being a great, proud civilization), they have to go slave hunting. They'd rather not deal with such "upstarts" anyhow - but most of Thonia is a rural backwater, and even their capital is decaying rather than being vigorous. The Thonia I tried to depict is strong enough combined with being poor enough that the Alphatians wouldn't care to conquer it: if it was weaker, they'd have grabed it (to get a nearby source of cheap, semi-educated slaves if for no other reason). If it was richer, they'd have grabbed it for that reason (same reason they wanted Esterhold). In combination with the Jennites, they are potentially strong enough to keep the Alphatians from advancing far into Skothar. But they don't (or at least haven't) cooperated with the Jennites enough to even threaten to force the Alphatians out of Esterhold. With Alphatia (proper) gone and the remnants of Alphatia (the NACE) thus much weaker, Thonia is more of a potential threat. But (as of now) Thonia has lacked the energy and initiative to even try and take advantage of Alphatia's disapearance. They were dependent upon Alphatia for trade to get the goodies they covet, and now Alphatia has disapeared. They have no desire to help NACE (because the Thonians are smug and giddy that the "newcomers" have recieved their "comeupance", and the Thonians can't make the mental leap to sympathize with the NACErs for having their Empire suffer a similar fate as Thonia's old, Blackmoor-era one) - thus they don't (or haven't yet) cooperated. They watch passively while the rebuilding efforts in the NACE nations show that their rivals are much more active than the Thonians. Under more dynamic leadership, Thonia might become a power in the region, but the way I portrayed them they are somewhat apathetic (this was mainly to fit them into the timeline we know right now - folks can depose the current King/Emperor and put someone more active in charge, have him either help or act against NACE or whoever). Note also the "King/Emperor" dychotomy shows a certain amount of self-loathing among the Thonians: they are ever attatched to the age of their civilization and its connection with the Thonian Empire, but they do not refer to their current rulers as "Emperors" (it is outsiders who do that), but merely as "Kings." Oh, one other note: this current Thonia has none of the trappings of being a "Republic", third or otherwise, like the Thonia of the Blackmoor modules did. That pretence was dropped a long time ago, probably during the struggle to just survive the Blackmoor Cataclysm, when such affectations couldn't be afforded. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:20:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be happy to vote if you tell me where. Couldn't remember where I did last time and couldn't find you in the MML Member Directory > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example > of > how many votes I need!!! > > George Hrabovsky > John Walter Biles > Leroy Van Camp III > Marco Dalmonte > Marco Giulio Fossati > Michael III Mysteria > Patrick Sullivan > Peter Balazs > and many many many more > VOTE!!!! > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:32:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Hawk and Falcons In-Reply-To: <20000208181057.39585.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Luca Toni wrote: > I'm looking for the stats of some monster, > such as HAWK and FLCONS. My PG has the skill of > falconery, ability to train animals like hawk > and falcons, teaching 'em to fight and to carry > little objects. > Has anyone got some stats of those animals > (and some other specify about falconery)? There are some stats on some birds in the Creature Calalogue, but I dont have that here at the moment. For rules on Falconry, I recommend Lordly Domains for the Pendragon RPG. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:55:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Giovanni Porpora Subject: R: [MYSTARA] Hawk and Falcons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Luca, some stats for falcons, as well as some details on the falconry proficiency, can be found in the Complete Ranger's Handbook. I'm sorry but I can't give you any details since I haven't the book with me at the moment : the Ranger stole it :) It'll be back on Sunday when we'll play. If by then you are still in need of the stats mail me at gporpo@tin.it Bye Giovanni > Hey boys I'm looking for the stats of some monster, such as HAWK and FLCONS. My PG has the skill of falconery, ability to train animals like hawk and falcons, teaching 'em to fight and to carry little objects. Has anyone got some stats of those animals (and some other specify about falconery)? > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:12:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, one other thing I forgot (I'm going to have to post an updated "Thonia Gaz" to compile stuff, I guess. Note this also means that if folks have any suggestions, don't hesitate to share 'em): the location of the capital, Thorin. If you have DotE take out the 72 mile hex map of the Empires. If you don't have that, take out the AC 1012 "New Alphatian Region" map. If you don't have either, imagine a beautiful flower being plucked by a young maiden. For those of you looking at maps (don't you think you're foolish now? You could be imagining a young lady, but no - you're looking at maps): in Verdan, follow the collum of hexes that have the fortresses in them (there are three border fortresses marked on the map) - move your finger northwards until you reach the coastal hex just south of the forest hex. There's a little "bump" on the coast there. The City of Thorin would be on the eastern shores of that "bump", where it forms a small inlet before the coast sweeps south. The lands around that region are also the "Royal Domain". There is one province Southwards (if you have the AC 1012 map, this Province is in those hills), bordering Ferdan (just a short border along the coastal and hill hex), and essentially shared with wandering Jennites. There is a Eastern province in the mountains of Thorin (just some of them, not all of them. This is where the Thonian Dwarves live, by and large). The other 8 Provinces are northwards and westwards. If, like Mysteria, you already have something in this region, then you'll have to move the city to wherever seems most convenient for you. Also, if in your campaign you have a Dwarven kingdom of Thorin in those mountains you should probably rename Thonia's capital city something else (but not Mohacs, IMO). An additional possibility for a Province of Thonia would be that island off the northwest tip of Esterhold, off the coast of Blackrock. This would explain why that Island isn't in Alphatian hands: it's held by Thonia (IMO, there's prolly Yannifey there, though, but it could be either controled by or allied with Thonia anyhow). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:29:18 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have always had a soft spot for Karameikos. In fact, my new campaign is going to be set there. George ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroletti To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:15 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed > POLL RESULT: What is your preferred nation in Mystara? > Votes 42 of 196 > > Alfheim 5% > Alphatia 7% (1/3 Limn, 1/3 Blackheart) > Bellayne 2% > Darokin 11% > Shires 1% > Glantri 20% > Hule 5% > Karameikos 16% > Nithia 2% > Northern Reaches 1% > Norwold 2% > Rockhome 2% > Serraine 1% > Thyatis 12% > Wendar 8% > Ylaruam 5% > Don't know 2% > > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example > of > how many votes I need!!! > > George Hrabovsky > John Walter Biles > Leroy Van Camp III > Marco Dalmonte > Marco Giulio Fossati > Michael III Mysteria > Patrick Sullivan > Peter Balazs > and many many many more > VOTE!!!! > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:51:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael III Mysteria ha scritto: > I'd be happy to vote if you tell me where. > Couldn't remember where I did last time > and couldn't find you in the MML Member Directory Oh, well, just mail to me personally at scarole@tin.it Is there really a MML Member Directory? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius,Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:05:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Hawk and Falcons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:10:31 Luca Toni wrote: >Hey boys > I'm looking for the stats of some monster, >such as HAWK and FLCONS. My PG has the skill of >falconery, ability to train animals like hawk >and falcons, teaching 'em to fight and to carry >little objects. >Has anyone got some stats of those animals >(and some other specify about falconery)? > Are you playing AD&D?? If you are, you can find them in the Monstrous Manual on page 27 under the heading 'Bird'. Don't know about falconry, though. I'll just give you the basic stats. FALCON: #AP 1-2, AC 5, MV 1 - Fl 36 (B), HD 1-1, Thac0 20, #AT 3, Dmg/AT 1/1/1, ML unsteady (6), XP 65 HAWK, LARGE: #AP 1-2, AC 6, MV 1 - Fl 33 (B), HD 1, Thac0 19, #AT 3, Dmg/AT 1-2/1-2/1, ML average (9), XP 65 Even if you don't play AD&D you can still use these if you're deserate enough :) - 'Hope it helps. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:11:04 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Hm... here's a poser. In Dragon #183 and in the Red Steel box set, they introduce the Immortal Negyavim, known as "Iliric" elsewhere, who is the patron of Aranean wizardry and also the source of their greed and insensitivity. The Red Steel book says he is a Temporal of the Sphere of Energy. But I can't seem to find any original source for him, and he's not listed in the WotI sourcebook under either name. Anyone know where this Immortal came from? I'm wondering if he was a new guy that they neglected to give further detail on. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:25:48 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IronWolf wrote: > >Hm... here's a poser. In Dragon #183 and in the Red Steel box set, they >introduce the Immortal Negyavim, known as "Iliric" elsewhere, who is the= >patron of Aranean wizardry and also the source of their greed and >insensitivity. The Red Steel book says he is a Temporal of the Sphere of= >Energy. But I can't seem to find any original source for him, and he's >= not listed in the WotI sourcebook under either name. He's one of the pregenerated Immortal characters in the module IM2:Wrath = of Olympus. = I suppose that means that the other pregenerated Immortals in that module= exist as well... not to mention the difficulties in retrofitting that mod= ule into Mystaran cosmology (it's basis is that the Immortals are *not* the s= ame as the RW pantheon of Gods- in this case, the Olympians- and that a) the Olympian gods are known on Mystara, and b) taking their identiy is someth= ing that "should not be done".) Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] In-Reply-To: <20000208232548.28553.qmail@aw162.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > He's one of the pregenerated Immortal characters in the module IM2:Wrath of > Olympus. The funny thing is that other pre-generated characters are listed in the WoTI Codex and Ilric isn't. (At least I don't remember him being listed. I remember beating my head against a wall trying to find a reference to him when I read the blurb about him in Red Steel sourcebook). > > I suppose that means that the other pregenerated Immortals in that module > exist as well... not to mention the difficulties in retrofitting that module > into Mystaran cosmology (it's basis is that the Immortals are *not* the same > as the RW pantheon of Gods- in this case, the Olympians- and that a) the > Olympian gods are known on Mystara, and b) taking their identiy is something > that "should not be done".) Not that difficult to fix, really. Assume that on the world of Laterre there are Immortals like on Mystara. These Olympians were once a group of Laterran Immortals whose powers waned considerably over the centuries (much like the Greek god's "influence" waned in the RW). When the Laterran's came to Mystara, they brought with them stories of their Immortals (maybe they knew them as gods, maybe not) and spread their tales as literary fictions, so at the very least the people of Glantri and Northern Darokin would have heard a few of these stories. (Which, if I remember correctly, is where the upstart Immortals lay claim, somewhere in the Broken Lands). As for why the Mystaran Immortals would be upset with the impersonation, I really should re-read the module. But off the top of my head, perhaps they don't want to deal with these otherworldly Immortals finding out about the impersonation and taking offense. In fact, Odin may be on good terms with the Olympians, perhaps even having an old pantheon on Laterre that the Inquisition wiped out in the north, and he and his fellow Northland Immortals might take offense at their friends being impersonated and/or be afraid of what Zeus and his allies may do to their world if he hears that some other Immortal is using his name. I'll re-read the module tonight and see if this could work. At the very least its given me yet another way to reconcile the "two Odins" problem that you come across when you try to mingle AD&D and OD&D cosmologies... Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:17:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > not to mention the difficulties in retrofitting that module > into Mystaran cosmology (it's basis is that the Immortals are *not* > the same as the RW pantheon of Gods- in this case, the Olympians- > and that a) the Olympian gods are known on Mystara, and b) taking > their identiy is something that "should not be done".) > Well, I would ignore that aspect of it (the aspect re. the Olympian gods being known or even relivant to the Immortals as we know it). In any case, all the "Olympians" were more suitably renamed in the WotI set. As to what to do with the "Olympian" stuff if you run that module, I guess that's tougher. I'd replace that aspect of it with them showing up on Mystara in Immortal form and using Immortal powers, and having that be the thing that they do that "should not be done," since it fits in better with what we already know (thus them showing up in Darokin and setting up shop to be worshiped nakedly on the Prime is the no-no). Just scrap the "Olympian" names. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:26:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:10 Jeremy Morris wrote: >On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > >> He's one of the pregenerated Immortal characters in the module IM2:Wrath of >> Olympus. > >The funny thing is that other pre-generated characters are listed in the >WoTI Codex and Ilric isn't. (At least I don't remember him being listed. >I remember beating my head against a wall trying to find a reference to >him when I read the blurb about him in Red Steel sourcebook). > (rest snipped) Well, I'm sure he's not! I did my own Player's Guide to Immortals based on the WOTI stuff, thinking that this was the complete listing of Immortals for Mystara, and was rather surprised to see him in Red Steel - the new ("Saimpt...") Immortals were one thing because they were oviously (to me anyway) specific to the Savage Coast region, but Iliric puzzled me, and I'm sure he's not in WOTI. Can anyone prove me wrong ? :) - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:33:05 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Nentsun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/00 10:36:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time, au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA writes: << Maybe the people of Nentsun were related to the Skandaharians? Geoff >> IMC the Nentsun were descended from the Skandaharians and were partially the ancestors of the Norse Antalians (refer to my Isle of Dawn history on Shawn's apge). They were also, IMC, behind the naming of the northern region of Skothar as "Thonia", for the Antalians believed that anyone from the East must be "Thonians", and thus, since the Thonians were regarded as fierce, warlike and powerful, the Nentsun did nothing to change this opinion and, in fact, they did found a "Thonian" kingdom on Skothar, after which the region is today known as "Thonia". This is also, IMC, how Lord Jaggar and his family have come to believe themselves descended from Blackmoor, as the Norse-Antalian ancestry of the Hattians (from which comes the "Thyatian" side of Jaggar's clan) believe themselves descended from the "Thonians" of old... James A. Mishler Magister Mystaros Check out my website: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:03:27 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Neal Subject: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course. the scourge from the north and past ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:06:38 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Neal Subject: poll of favorite nation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm inclined to like Ethengar. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:19:09 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Nentsun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > apge). They were also, IMC, behind the naming of the northern region of > Skothar as "Thonia", for the Antalians believed that anyone from the East > must be "Thonians", and thus, since the Thonians were regarded as fierce, > warlike and powerful, the Nentsun did nothing to change this opinion and, in > fact, they did found a "Thonian" kingdom on Skothar, after which the region > is today known as "Thonia". > Well, that's all interesting. I tried to keep my version of "Thonia" somewhat in line with what is described in DA1 (p.2, wherin once Thonia is destroyed in the Blackmoor cataclysm "A few survivors sailed to a new land, which they called Thonia in memory of all that they had lost." - I did decide that they didn't "sail" to the current Thonia, but were rather an outpost of it - an earlier colony - mainly because I can't see anyone willingly deciding that this area is the best available place to settle after the axis had shifted (had it been an open vote, I'd have voted to sail to a more temperate clime, for one thing; so IMO this area was settled by Thonia prior to the cataclysm, when it was a more benign climate). Yours is an interesting idea though, too (I can't find my map of old Mystara from the HW - I can't remember where the Skandharians would be placed on that map & where they'd have ended up. Prolly doesn't matter because like everyone else they'd scatter). Perhaps at some point you'd like to post your version of Nentsun, at least, and we can put another piece in the Skothar puzzle into place. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:43:32 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iliric appears in the IM2 advnture, "Wrath of Olympus" as a pre-generated Immortal PC. He seems pretty nasty to me, but funny how he ended up in Energy instead of Entropy. Here are his stats: Immortal: Sphere Energy; Status Temporal 2; Power Points 200; Anti-Magic 60; Armor Class 0; HD 22; Hit Points 120; Move Universal; Attack Any; Damage as attack mode; Save as Temporal 2; Alignment Chaotic; Strength 12/+0, Inteliligence 21/+5, Wisdom 13/+1, Dexterity 13/+1, Constitution 19/+4, Charisma 17 20/R+2/A-4 Mortal: Class Magic-User; Armor Class 9; Level 32; Hit Pints 69; Move 120'(40'); Attack 1; Damage 1d4; Save as MU32; Alignment Chaotic; Strength 9, Intelligence (18), Wisdom (10), Dexterity 11, Constitution 16, Charisma 17. Description: Iliric's mortal form is that of a wizened old man. He stands 6' tall, though he wlaks with a pronounced stoop and requires a staff or cane for support. His head is bald, but his fae adorned with a full whtie beard. The eys are a milky, hazel color. His Immortal form remedies all the deficiencies of age, appearaing as a young man of 30 years in all the vigor of young adulthood. Background: Iliric always dreamed of being an Immortal and knew he could make it if he tried hard enough. His first three petitions were denied because of his haughtiness, but perseverance paid off. he was quested to find the fabled Carpet of Millicent, a weaving possessed of extraordinary powers. this was recovered, though at the cost of the life of one of Iliric's companions. Iliric shed not a tear. He pondered long over the creation of a new magical tiem. He finally chose to prepare a gauge that combined the powers of several detection spells. With it he could immediately tell the alignment, experience, calss, intelligence, tec. of any creature he chose. It was dubbed Iliric's Nose and gave rise to the saying "taking the gauge of someone." ettlign down, he opened a school of magic and attracted many bright students. For all his faults, Iliric was a brilliant magic-user. He pock-marked the land around his castle with lakes placed as if on a grid. In the cetner of each was an island, an on each island grew a different tree. His collection included a specimen of every known variety of tree, some of which should not have been able to grow in this climate. And then came the endless duels, for Iliric lusted after Immortality at the expense of all who stood in his way. All other magic-users withn a 1,500-mile radius were destroyed, including many of Iliric's former students. So Immortality came to Iliric. Personality: Grasping and insensitive, Iliric is a man to be reckoned with. Nothing stands in his way, and any who call him friend are badly mistaken or deluded. Iliric can be charming if it serves his purpose, but he is prone to lying and has a reputattion for reneging on his word. Honor seems a silly notion to him. --end-- Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri "Oh, but we Glantrians do know there are other Immortals besides Rad. There's the Roaring Fiend, of course, who destroyed the Old Alphatia. And there's another Patron of Fire that the Flaems sometimes mention... Wrath-o-flame or Ratha-something. And there's that Immortal wizard who's selfish, greedy and insensitive. Kind of like your typical Glantrian wizard, don't you think?" --Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, on religion in Glantri ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:24:17 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > POLL RESULT: What is your preferred nation in Mystara? > Votes 42 of 196 > > Glantri 20% Woohoo! The Principalities are on the lead! > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example > of how many votes I need!!! Well, I think these people are all gonna vote for Glantri too... > George Hrabovsky <--I think he's half-Boldavian, half-Sylaire, like Baroness Szasza Markovitch > John Walter Biles <--definitely Fenswick > Leroy Van Camp III <--Flaemish (former suitor of Princess Juliana) > Marco Dalmonte <--Caurenzan, definitely > Marco Giulio Fossati <--Caurenzan (survived the Great Meteor, contrary to popular belief) > Michael III Mysteria <--Hmm... just typical generic strange-named Glantrian (as opposed to strange-named Alphatian, he has a surname). > Patrick Sullivan <--Klantyre, I think > Peter Balazs <--Hmm... I think he's an ally of House Haaskinz > and many many many more > VOTE!!!! Hehehe! :) Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri Speculator-in-Chief fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:45:12 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iliric appears in the IM2 advnture, "Wrath of Olympus" as a pre-generated Immortal PC. He seems pretty nasty to me, but funny how he ended up in Energy instead of Entropy. Here are his stats: Immortal: Sphere Energy; Status Temporal 2; Power Points 200; Anti-Magic 60; Armor Class 0; HD 22; Hit Points 120; Move Universal; Attack Any; Damage as attack mode; Save as Temporal 2; Alignment Chaotic; Strength 12/+0, Inteliligence 21/+5, Wisdom 13/+1, Dexterity 13/+1, Constitution 19/+4, Charisma 17 20/R+2/A-4 Mortal: Class Magic-User; Armor Class 9; Level 32; Hit Pints 69; Move 120'(40'); Attack 1; Damage 1d4; Save as MU32; Alignment Chaotic; Strength 9, Intelligence (18), Wisdom (10), Dexterity 11, Constitution 16, Charisma 17. Description: Iliric's mortal form is that of a wizened old man. He stands 6' tall, though he wlaks with a pronounced stoop and requires a staff or cane for support. His head is bald, but his fae adorned with a full whtie beard. The eys are a milky, hazel color. His Immortal form remedies all the deficiencies of age, appearaing as a young man of 30 years in all the vigor of young adulthood. Background: Iliric always dreamed of being an Immortal and knew he could make it if he tried hard enough. His first three petitions were denied because of his haughtiness, but perseverance paid off. he was quested to find the fabled Carpet of Millicent, a weaving possessed of extraordinary powers. this was recovered, though at the cost of the life of one of Iliric's companions. Iliric shed not a tear. He pondered long over the creation of a new magical tiem. He finally chose to prepare a gauge that combined the powers of several detection spells. With it he could immediately tell the alignment, experience, calss, intelligence, tec. of any creature he chose. It was dubbed Iliric's Nose and gave rise to the saying "taking the gauge of someone." ettlign down, he opened a school of magic and attracted many bright students. For all his faults, Iliric was a brilliant magic-user. He pock-marked the land around his castle with lakes placed as if on a grid. In the cetner of each was an island, an on each island grew a different tree. His collection included a specimen of every known variety of tree, some of which should not have been able to grow in this climate. And then came the endless duels, for Iliric lusted after Immortality at the expense of all who stood in his way. All other magic-users withn a 1,500-mile radius were destroyed, including many of Iliric's former students. So Immortality came to Iliric. Personality: Grasping and insensitive, Iliric is a man to be reckoned with. Nothing stands in his way, and any who call him friend are badly mistaken or deluded. Iliric can be charming if it serves his purpose, but he is prone to lying and has a reputattion for reneging on his word. Honor seems a silly notion to him. --end-- There's also a picture of him as a bald old mortal wizard, and as the young charming yet dark Immortal with a goatee-beard going on. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Oh, but we Glantrians do know there are other Immortals besides Rad. There's the Roaring Fiend, of course, who destroyed the Old Alphatia. And there's another Patron of Fire that the Flaems sometimes mention... Wrath-o-flame or Ratha-something. And there's that Immortal wizard who's selfish, greedy and insensitive. Kind of like your typical Glantrian wizard, don't you think?" --Lord John Beaumarys-Moorkroft, on religion in Glantri ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:48:26 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: The Decent of Nations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I finally found my "precataclysmic map" of Mystara. Well, the odd thing is that Blackmoor is supposedly "the north" of Thonia, but on this map Thonia is marked more or less where it "ought" to be (in the present, once the land mass shifts). IMO, "Blackmoor" should really be in that area just south of the Frosthaven Sea (isn't that more or less right, anyhow?). That *would* then put the Skandharians more or less in the land areas where the Nentsun are today, so I suppose that would apply. Re. Skandharians & the Antalians, however: Someone brought up that point on the MMB as well, saying "shouldn't the Antalians be decended from the Skandharians?" - this does seem like the obvious choice, but that is in part why I dislike it. It tends to make things seem too static, too stuck in stasis. Here we have Viking types, then we have the same folk being Viking types, and today there they are: Viking types. IMO, there was probably much change during the Blackmoor era itself. The Skandharians were probably subdued (or at least "tamed") at some point. At the height of Blackmoorian civilization they were probably as much like the Vikings as todays Swedes are (I.E.: not very. It's been awhile since anyone's been raided by Sweden. Have to go back to the time of Peter the Great for that, IIRC). Also, the opinion might be "well, the Skandharians were fair haired and light of skin, and so are the Antalians" - well, so were the Skandanavians. . .but so too were most of their targets (in the Slavic lands, Germany, France, the British Isles) - so this doesn't mean that all Antalians are of nessessity decended from the Skandharians. IMO, the Nentsun (if only because of their position on the map) are decended from the Skandharians. OtoH, the Antalians are probably decended from a variety of "survivor peoples" - Skandharians, Blackmoorians proper, and yes Thonians. As for Jaggar: yes you could say "well, those Thyatians get everything wrong, so of course his family is wrong about its lineage." - But this is the common way of handling such things, as such it is boring in my opinion (which after all, is only my opinion - how folks handle this in their own campaigns and what they find interesting and original is something for them to decide). It's almost more original and interesting to say that the von Drachenfells family history is correct. There are some indications in the Blackmoor modules that the Thonians were very concious of family lineages and the like, much more likely to keep track of these things than other people, probably. This would then tend to imply a Thonian strain in the backround of the Antalian people. IMO, it's also semi-ironic, since before they were the "civilized" power faced with the "fury of the Northmen," and now they are the "fury of the Northmen." It keeps Mystaran history, if only in a small way, from seeming too static - the way it appears, IMO, if one assumes that the Antalians of today were just the Skandharians of yesterday. Anyhow, like I said, that's just my opinion on the matter. Your mileage may vary. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Wrath of Olympus (was Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim]) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Jeremy Morris wrote: > On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > > > > > I suppose that means that the other pregenerated Immortals in that module > > exist as well... not to mention the difficulties in retrofitting that module > > into Mystaran cosmology (it's basis is that the Immortals are *not* the same > > as the RW pantheon of Gods- in this case, the Olympians- and that a) the > > Olympian gods are known on Mystara, and b) taking their identiy is something > > that "should not be done".) > > Not that difficult to fix, really. Oh, how words come back to haunt us ;) I just re-read Wrath of Olympus, and it's even more broken than I remember it being. Immortals incarnating on the Prime without the Hierarchs immediately smacking them down is the most glaring, but there are some other doozies in there. Its not really that bad of an adventure, but it seems to play fast and loose even with the scant information given in the Gold Box. However, I think it can mostly be fixed with a few small changes. Like I suggested in my previous post, the Greek "gods" could actually be Laterran Immortals. Nowhere in the module does it reference average Mystarans knowing who these "gods" are, so general knowledge is not needed. However, the Immortals of Mystara do know who they are, so they should exist or have once existed somewhere. My idea would be that these Greek gods were Laterran Immortals who sacrificed themselves stopping some great evil from destroying the Multiverse. (Perhaps heading off some Outer Being's plot to enter the world). The other Immortals have such respect for their sacrifice that they are horrified by the imposter's impersonation, which is why the upstarts decide to use their forms and names. As for why the council doesn't just smack down the upstarts, I would move their base into a plane that bordering the Prime (like Pandius, only smaller) with a gate in the Broken Lands and have their actions take place only through worshippers loyal to them instead of them directly acting against people of Darokin, so that they have a technical out against the Hierarchs (and making it easier for the Entropics to trap them). Otherwise, this event should spark an Immortal war that would make WotI look like a picnic. As it stands, the fall-out from the adventure should lead to much more than Nyx being reduced in stature, since "her" Immortals were only trying to enforce the rules. I think that I like the idea that Odin and his pantheon were known on Laterre and knew the Greek Immortals. In fact, even though Frey, Freya, Thor and Loki were originally all Mystaran mortals, there's no reason that their Laterran worshippers would have known that, so their mysths and legends would probably be very similar to the RW. For people looking to join Immortals and Powers, it would be very easy to say that Thor, Frey, Freya and Loki all started on Mystara and then migrated to other worlds looking for worshippers. (Perhaps other Norse Immortals come from these worlds, and for some reason they stay away from Mystara). Anyway, I've probably babbled on too much. Please let me know if you see any glaring errors in these ideas. Thanks, Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:59:45 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:18 PM 2/8/00 -0500, you wrote: > >The funny thing is that other pre-generated characters are listed in the >WoTI Codex and Ilric isn't. (At least I don't remember him being listed. >I remember beating my head against a wall trying to find a reference to >him when I read the blurb about him in Red Steel sourcebook). I know the NPC Immortals (Zeus, et al) appear in WotI Codex, but I don't think that any of the pregenerated characters do (which is what Iliric is). I don't own IM3: Best of Intentions, but I don't believe any of the pregenerated characters from that module appear in the Codex either. Note the difference I make here between pregenerated characters- characters already created for players to play, rather than roll up their own- and NPCs- characters who play an instrumental part in the plot of the module that are run by the DM. >Not that difficult to fix, really. Assume that on the world of Laterre >there are Immortals like on Mystara. These Olympians were once a group of >Laterran Immortals whose powers waned considerably over the centuries >(much like the Greek god's "influence" waned in the RW). When the >Laterran's came to Mystara, they brought with them stories of their >Immortals (maybe they knew them as gods, maybe not) and spread their tales >as literary fictions, so at the very least the people of Glantri and >Northern Darokin would have heard a few of these stories. (Which, if I >remember correctly, is where the upstart Immortals lay claim, somewhere in >the Broken Lands). Personally, I don't find it troublesome, but then I play as if the "gods" of other worlds and the Immortals of Mystara are one and the same (ie, same power levels, same degrees of influence- just different areas of interest). It does become a problem for those who decide that the Mystara cosmology and the AD&D cosmologies are not compatible in regards to Immortals and Gods. I should have been more explicit when I mentioned this. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:25:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: Mystara Elven Faiths & Avatars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Creative minds & realm builders of the Known World, I have seen some pretty good attempts to add the "A" to the "D&D" of the ODnD world of Mystara on sites and in T$R products. However, I am looking for Mystara Immortals in 2ndEd Faiths & Avatars format; seen some well done conversions in a Mystara Immortals project for example (can't remember the URL), but work so far has been limited to a small few. Most of the stuff I have able to find so far seems no newer than '96-97. Does anyone out there have a read or can point me to sites with good ADnD2ed F&A conversions of Immortals, PRIMARILY their comprehensive Specialty Clergy info? I am looking for specialty priest info concerning: Rafiel, patron of the Shadow Elves Atzanteotl/Aztiann Eryindul (sp) Ilsundal Calitha Starbrow Milan/Mealinden Starwatcher Ordana Zirchev F&A format also includes unique nomenclature on specific priests (i.e. Corellon has Feywardens, Moradin has Sollinor). I seek input concerning abovementioned immortals/deities. Any takers, please feel free to reply to my e-address directly. -building pantheons ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: Mystara Humanoid Faiths & Avatars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Humanoid friends of the Known World, I am looking for certain humanoid Mystara Immortals in 2ndEd Faiths & Avatars format. Most of the stuff I have able to find so far seems no newer than '96-97. Does anyone out there have a read or can point me to sites with good ADnD2ed F&A conversions of Immortals, PRIMARILY their comprehensive Specialty Clergy info? I am looking for specialty priest info concerning: Garal Glitterlode (Garl Glittergold?) Karaash, the ultimate Orc warrior Wogar the Worg Lord the Shining One (the kobold Ulysses) Yagrai "He who always rises" Bartziluth (bugbear) Bagni Gullymaw, the Troll Gorrzoik the Waze Lord (sea giant) F&A format includes unique nomenclature on specific priests (i.e. Corellon has Feywardens, Moradin has Sollinor). I seek input concerning abovementioned immortals/deities. Anyone who has what I am looking for, please mail me direct. -building pantheons ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:19:47 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Meltheim's List o' Faith's and Avatars (LONG!!!!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only immortal you need worry about friend IS the Red Arrow himself, as he is the true protector of us all. But i guess that a few heathens can read below about your feeble and trite other immortals. I do not have information regarding a conversion of sorts, but i hope that the info below can help somewhat . . . Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher Rafiel (Empyreal of Energy) Alignment: LN Sex: Male Race: Human (Blackmoor) Clerical (Shaman) Alignment: Any Followers Alignment: Any Weapons: Any bludgeoning Granted Powers: +1 bonus to saves vs rod/staff/wand and spells, Shadow elf followers do not suffer penalties from light Disadvantages: No power over Undead Description: Patron of the Shadow Elves, little is known about Rafiel other than they are his chosen people (even though worship of Atzanteotl has picked up). Symbol: A book with a star in its center, representing wisdom and celestial learning Interests: Shadow elves, Study of Radiation, Stealing the Radiance from Rad Worshiped in: Shadow Elf Territories, Among Aengmor refugees Atzanteotl (Hierarch of Entropy) Aztiann the Great, Menlil Alignment: LE Sex: Male Race: Elf (Schattennalfen) Clerical Alignment: Any Chaotic Followers Alignment: Any Neutral or Chaotic Weapons: Adze, Axe (Stone), Blowgun, Bola, Boomerang, Dagger (bone, stone, metal), Harpoon (bone), Javelin, Knife (bone, stone), Lasso, Machete, Quarterstaff, Rock, Sling, War Club Granted Powers: Command Undead, Cause Light Wounds three times per day Disadvantages: None Description: He was an elf from the Glantri area whos clan was devastated by the second explosion that helped form the shadow elves. He wandered in the Hollow World where he became patron to the Azacans, Shattennalfen, and shadow elves. Symbol: A feathered serpents silhouette Interests: Corruption Worshiped in the: Azca, Schattennalf caverns, Shadow Elf Territories, Nimmur (RS), Okenmar Ilsundal (Hierarch of Energy) The Wise One, Tiuz, The Guide Alignment: LG Sex: Male Race: Elf (Evergrun/Sylvan Realm) Clerical Alignment: Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral Followers Alignment: Any Weapons: Any sword and dagger, Elven bow Granted Powers: Turn Undead, Awareness as per a mystic Disadvantages: None Description: The Patron of the elves, Ilsundals name is recognized among the various elven peoples, while other elven Immortals have only small followings Symbol: An oaken Tree of Life Interests: All elves Worshiped in the: Anywhere non-evil elves are found, Eusdriea (RS), Aeryl (RS) Calithia Starbrow (Celestial of Time) Tallivai, Felidae, Mother Ocean, Barramundje Mother Alignment: TN Sex: Female Race: Elf (Evergrun) Clerical Alignment: Any Neutral Followers Alignment: Any Weapons: Harpoon, Sa (Sai), Spear, Trident, Net Granted Powers: Confer Water Breathing once per day, Identify aquatic plants and animals and fresh water without fail Disadvantages: No power over Undead Description: Sponsor of the elendaen (Water Path) and all water elves, Calithia was and Evergrun elf fascinated by the sea. She is mostly revered by Sea-Elves or Aquarendi Symbol: A giant pearl lying in the mother-of-pearl Interests: Oceans, Aquarendi, Water Elves Worshiped in the: Minrothad, Kingdom of the Undersea, Ierendi (Aquarendi elves), Bellayne (RS), among tortles and wallara (RS) Mealiden Starwatcher (Empyreal of Energy) The Red Arrow, Milan, The Guardian Alignment: CG Sex: Male Race: Elf (Sylvan Realm, Alfhiem) Clerical Alignment: Lawful Followers Alignment: Any Weapons: Swords and Bows Granted Powers: Turn Undead, May specialize in Bows and have bonus Blind-shooting Proficiency (see the Proficiencies Chapter q.v.) Disadvantages: None Description: Another hero of the elves, he is revered mostly among the Alfhiem refugees as their savior when the Sylvan Realm fell. He is Ilsundals glorified Bodyguard. Symbol: A rainbow with a star above and below it Interests: Protection of Ilsundal, Swashbucklers Worshiped in: Karameikos and Wendar, Aeryl and the Savage Baronies (RS) Ordana (Hierarch of Time) Forest Mother, Thendara, Breig, Tawnia, U Alignment: NG Sex: Female Race: Treant Clerical Alignment: True Neutral Followers Alignment: Any Weapons: Druid Weapons Granted Powers: Move Silently and Hide in Shadows as a thief when in the forests, Druidic abilities Disadvantages: Druidic disadvantages Description: Reputed creator of the elven race, she is a protector of all thing that love the forest, including phanaton, Rakasta, elves, and Druids (though not an Immortal whos followers are druids, she is revered by them) Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: That one picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a picture that one of they players in my group is looking for, and I can't find it ANYWHERE! it is a picture of a half ogre wielding a great scimitar, from one of the supplemental books. he has a topknot and it is a VERY nice picture by (i think) a Frank something. I know you know what i'm talking about, so could somebody please point me to where it can be found, tell me the artists name, or just scan it in? I think it's in the Skills and Powers book if that helps. Thanks! Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:22:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000208185945.007c4af0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 07:18 PM 2/8/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > >The funny thing is that other pre-generated characters are listed in the > >WoTI Codex and Ilric isn't. (At least I don't remember him being listed. > >I remember beating my head against a wall trying to find a reference to > >him when I read the blurb about him in Red Steel sourcebook). > > I know the NPC Immortals (Zeus, et al) appear in WotI Codex, but I don't > think that any of the pregenerated characters do (which is what Iliric is). > I don't own IM3: Best of Intentions, but I don't believe any of the > pregenerated characters from that module appear in the Codex either. My mistake. I understood the distinction, but the Immortals I thought were from IM2 where actually from IM3. Specifically Marwdyn and Tiresias. I wonder why Aaron Allston chose the Immortals that he did to stick in the index and left the others out. > It does become a problem for those who decide that the Mystara cosmology > and the AD&D cosmologies are not compatible in regards to Immortals and > Gods. I should have been more explicit when I mentioned this. Ah. Hmmm...well, I think my rationale would work for people who follow this track. Personally, I usually set my games so that the gods are Immortals, same beings, different names, so I see where you are coming from. However, if the Mystaran multiverse can have Odin, Thor and Loki around, I'll bet that the Olympians are around somewhere too, even if they aren't active on Mystara. Just my .01 (I wouldn't charge full price for this ;) Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed In-Reply-To: <002b01bf729f$2a18d420$13f217d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Francisco V. Navarro wrote: > Well, I think these people are all gonna vote for Glantri too... > > > George Hrabovsky <--I think he's half-Boldavian, half-Sylaire, like > Baroness Szasza Markovitch > > John Walter Biles <--definitely Fenswick I'm afraid the idea of voting for a principality ruled by an evil dragon doesn't appeal to me :) John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are HE and other types above 50 mm. --Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:35:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Feebleminded Mortal Identities In-Reply-To: <200002081734.MAA27259@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Here's a question. Immortal takes on Mortal Identity. Mortal Identity > > has misfortune to be the victim of a feeblemind spell. Can the > > Feebleminded victim successfully abandon the Mortal Identity to another > > form, or are they stuck until it's undone? > > > Immortal minds are immune to all mental attacks from mortal sources, even > when they are in Mortal Identities, though they can pretend to be affected. > (This rule is in Gold Box, Player's Guide, p.6, under "Saving Throws.") > Baah., Will have to rethink some stuff (It would have just been so perfect poetic justice...) John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are HE and other types above 50 mm. --Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a picture that one of they players in my group is looking for, and I > can't find it ANYWHERE! it is a picture of a half ogre wielding a great > scimitar, from one of the supplemental books. he has a topknot and it is a > VERY nice picture by (i think) a Frank something. I know you know what i'm > talking about, so could somebody please point me to where it can be found, > tell me the artists name, or just scan it in? I think it's in the Skills and > Powers book if that helps. Asking people to scan in images for you (other than from your own books) is soliciting copyright violation. As per the list guidelines, this is not allowed on the list. I do admit the bit on this topic is a little hazy, so I am just making a general announcement on this one. I will likely update the guidelines to be a bit more clear. Thank you. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:56:01 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AHHHHHHH i broke another rule! damn those rules, damn them damn them! I'm quite stupid apparently and am unsure how scanning a picture is a copyright violation? I'm just looking to see what it looks like (this is me being meek, hehe) I really don't plan on using this picture except as a reference for what a true half ogre should look like. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:26:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Four Paths to Entropic Immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has occurred to me that the Sphere of Entropy may have been formed (according to a controversial theory in PC 1) from a fusion of four Spheres that were formerly Entropic in nature. There is every reason that the distinctions among those original four Spheres might persist in the current Sphere of Entropy, with each of the four "sub-Spheres" dedicated to the destruction of one of the other Spheres. Furthermore, each sub-Sphere would have its own separate Path to Immortality, which would be seen by its opposed Sphere as a mockery of its Path. Candidates for Immortality on each of these Paths would be driven to act like stereotypical villains and in fact would actually have rational reasons to do seemingly bizarre things such as leaving high level heroes in "inescapabel death traps" from which they are in fact able to escape. The original quest to gain the attention of an Entropic Immortal should in most respects match the standard requirements, although I cannot help imagining that in place of a magic item of high value they might prefer the sacrifice of a human, demi-human, fairy, or monster of "noble" nature -- and of course rescuing said offering before the sacrifice takes place would make an excellent quest for non-Entropic adventurers. While I have not worked out the details of the four Paths, I do have names and preliminary descriptions of them: Path of the Fiend (opposed to Path of the Polymath): This path was suggested on the Mystara Mailing List by somebody whose name I have lost. One of its requirements is to separately betray one member of each of the four character classes. I would imagine that it should also include reincarnation into three other forms, with the traditionally most likely possibilities of cleric, mage, and thief being replaced by shapeshifter, undead, and goblinoid or other "degenerate" humanoid. Loki probably achieved Immortality via this Path. Path of the Conqueror (opposed to the Path of the Dynast): This path was originally described in Gaz 10 and later amplified a bit by me. After meeting the requirements outlined in Gaz 10, during which a superior culture is conquered or destroyed, the candidate "dies" with his succession in an uncertain state, resulting in a civil war that tears apart his empire. The candidate must then travel into the future and possess one of his heirs (via a "Magic Jar" spell or similar magic) and then re-establish all or most of his old empire. Hosadus (the Master of Hule) is clearly set on this Path. Path of the Dungeon Master (opposed to the Path of the Paragon): This is the most common Path pursued by candidates for Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy, as it superficially appears to be easier than any of the others. The candidate must create an underground complex that stands up to the attacks of adventurers for at least a century and destroys a certain number of heroes sent to clear it out -- but in order to count for this purpose, each such hero must be of higher level than the last. Barimoor, among many others, seeks Immortality on this Path. Path of the Archvillain (opposed to the Path of the Epic Hero): This is the Path that I have the least idea about how to handle, but it is the one pursued by "mustache twirlers" who clearly do not fit into any of the other Paths. Bargle the Infamous is probably seeking Immortality on this Path. Finally, all of these Paths should make provision for "escapes" in which these candidates for Entropic Immortality somehow evade complete destruction at the hands of adventurers who somehow manage to foil their plots. Any candidate for Entropic Immortality who uses an "escape" must start his quest over and "raise the stakes", with a requirement to overcome heroes of a higher level than were required in his previous attempt. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:33:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:22 AM 2/9/00 -0500, you wrote: > >My mistake. I understood the distinction, but the Immortals I thought >were from IM2 where actually from IM3. Specifically Marwdyn and Tiresias. >I wonder why Aaron Allston chose the Immortals that he did to stick in the >index and left the others out. That is strange- like I said, I don't own IM3, so I wasn't aware of the inclusion of those Immortals. I just dunno what to say. Given that even mortal NPCs pop up here and there in "canon" products (Claransa, Geoffrey), I guess that all of the pregenerated PCs- mortal and Immortal- must be somewhat official themselves. On that note, a number of them were included in the Mystaran Almanac 1016, as well, further lending credence to the theory, I suppose. :) >> It does become a problem for those who decide that the Mystara cosmology >> and the AD&D cosmologies are not compatible in regards to Immortals and >> Gods. I should have been more explicit when I mentioned this. > >Ah. Hmmm...well, I think my rationale would work for people who follow >this track. Personally, I usually set my games so that the gods are >Immortals, same beings, different names, so I see where you are coming >from. However, if the Mystaran multiverse can have Odin, Thor >and Loki around, I'll bet that the Olympians are around somewhere too, >even if they aren't active on Mystara. That's a good point. And your theory on the Laterran Olympians is a sound one for this particular point of view. Perhaps another rationale for the Immortal heresy (in such a case) would be that the fledgling Immortals decided to take on the names and identities of Immortals who were known to exist elsewhere, but didn't have any followers or interests in Mystara itself. Thus, the fledgling Immortals decided it wouldn't do any harm, but of course, the Hierarchs disagreed. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:33:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An additional possibility for a Province of Thonia would be that island > off the northwest tip of Esterhold, off the coast of Blackrock. This would > explain why that Island isn't in Alphatian hands: it's held by Thonia (IMO, > there's prolly Yannifey there, though, but it could be either controled by > or allied with Thonia anyhow). I believe that that island actually IS Yannivey, or now Floating Ar. I think the best place for Thonia would be the Thonian marshes, which is the peninsula across from Esterhold on the Bay of Thorin, that's my two-bits. GRTZ, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:56:31 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Skothar: THONIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BTW, I just recently took a look at the map of Skothar that Jenni Merrifield posted for the MOrient project. I should point out that despite the fact that I am listed as a member of that project, I never did get around to making any useful contributions to it. However, I think I can say that I see only one major problem with the regional arrangement described on that map: namely, that the region given over to "MManchuria" is way too big. At least the southern half of that region should be given over to peoples of Tanagoro ancestry, including not only the "MEthiopia" shown on that map but the ancestors of the "demi-ogres" who figure rather prominently in the "Known World Grimoire" article about the "Arm of the Immortals" peninsula in Dragon #200. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:56:31 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-07 2:23:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << It would be, and will be, interesting to detail Skothar, but as an "Eastern Front" meant to tie down Alphatia where Thyatis cannot, its potential is IMO very limited, if only because Alphatia has nothing so critical to lose on that front (Esterhold) that would outweigh a decisive victory on the western front (elimination of Thyatis as a foe and recovery of the territories lost in AY 1000). >> Bellisaria is the only territory that would be vulnerable to assault from Minaea or other nations of Skothar. And while it is unimportant in terms of population, I cannot help imagining that its vast land area serves as a "bread basket" for mainland Alphatia, and that any attempt by any nation of Skothar to land troops on and/or conquer that island would certainly force the Alphatians to abort any campaign in the west and send troops to Bellisaria to deal with the problem there. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:56:32 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Immortal Gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing I noticed about most of the modules designed for Immortal level play is that they imported artwork (and maybe plot ideas?) from West End Games' "Paranoia" game. Is this the appropriate tone for low level Immortal adventures? Somehow I doubt it -- but I am ready to be persuaded otherwise. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:03:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Immortal Gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > One thing I noticed about most of the modules designed for Immortal level > play is that they imported artwork (and maybe plot ideas?) from West End > Games' "Paranoia" game. Is this the appropriate tone for low level Immortal > adventures? Somehow I doubt it -- but I am ready to be persuaded otherwise. Jim Holloway's artwork? Hm... this bears investigating. I loved his stuff in Paranoia, he was hands down the best artist they ever had for it. (As far as the game goes, the 1st Edition was the best.) IronWolf "The Computer has designated this urban sector 'Specularum'. Failure to address this sector by it's proper name is treason." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:17:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Death Certificate of the MOrient Group (Was Re: Skothar: THONIA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > BTW, I just recently took a look at the map of Skothar that Jenni > Merrifield posted for the MOrient project. I should point out that > despite the fact that I am listed as a member of that project, I > never did get around to making any useful contributions to it. > [snip] I suppose I should really remove the MOrient stuff from the web and officially "close" that project. I only took up the files when the person originally posting them couldn't keep them available any more. Nothing has ever really been done since then and that was /years/ ago. And, while I did think it was a cool idea, and would have liked to develop the idea of the Dragon Emperors (preferably in conjunction with others) I don't see anything ever actually happening unless someone new picks up the ideas and decides goes with it. So, let it hereby be announced -- anyone wanting copies of the defunct and out of date files generated by random discussion of the long deceased MOrient group, please pick up copies off my Mystara web page (http://www.jamm.com/mystara/index.html) in the next few days. I'll be getting rid of them in the near future. [Actually, I'll probably save the files on a disk somewhere, but they'll be coming off the web for sure] Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- PS: Whoever it is that maintains the 'MML working groups list' -- could you remove the MOrient group? Thanks. -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:26:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Immortal equivalences (was The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-08 7:19:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, morris@MCS.KENT.EDU writes: << As for why the Mystaran Immortals would be upset with the impersonation, I really should re-read the module. But off the top of my head, perhaps they don't want to deal with these otherworldly Immortals finding out about the impersonation and taking offense. In fact, Odin may be on good terms with the Olympians, perhaps even having an old pantheon on Laterre that the Inquisition wiped out in the north, and he and his fellow Northland Immortals might take offense at their friends being impersonated and/or be afraid of what Zeus and his allies may do to their world if he hears that some other Immortal is using his name. >> Another possibility to consider is the possible validity of the identifications that the ancient Romans made between their own gods and those of their Norse/Germanic foes. Going strictly by the gods who were assigned particular days of the week, we get the following: Tyr (Ilsundal?) = Mars = Ares Woden/Odin = Mercury = Hermes = Thoth Thor = Jove/Jupiter = Zeus Frigg (or Freya?) = Venus = Aphrodite (Valerias?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:26:32 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Barbarian Kingdoms (was Site update, another map!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-07 4:50:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ironwolf@EWA.NET writes: << Well, either I'm really getting good at this, or likely because the map is smaller, but the Barbarian Kingdoms of the Savage Coast are done! (Also, I dallied around with labels and extrapolating new territory with the Savage Baronies, so it took longer.) Drop by and let me know what you think. >> Please refresh our memories: Which regions of the Savage Coast are the "Barbarian Kingdoms"? I cannot immediately figure out which region you are talking about. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:26:33 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mystara Humanoid Faiths & Avatars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-08 10:38:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, obbing0@POP.UKY.EDU writes: << Garal Glitterlode (Garl Glittergold?)>> A correct identification << Karaash, the ultimate Orc warrior>> See "Ilneval" in "Monster Mythology" << Wogar the Worg Lord>> See "Maglubiyet" << the Shining One (the kobold Ulysses)>> "Kurtulmak" << Yagrai "He who always rises" >> "Vaprak" << Bartziluth (bugbear) >> "Hruggek" << Bagni Gullymaw, the Troll Gorrzoik the Waze Lord (sea giant) >> Neither of these Immortals have any counterparts in any know AD&D sources. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:26:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Glantrian Paparazzi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-08 8:49:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri >> I cannot believe it -- were you truly the one who spread to the entire multiverse those delightful images of Lady Natalie (of House Portman) from her vacation in Ierendi? ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:32:15 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Barbarian Kingdoms (was Site update, another map!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Barbarian Kingdoms is a bit inaccurate, but it refers to the Confederated Kingdom of Robrenn and the Kingdom of Eusdria, both of which have similar resemblance to Celtic societies of Earth. Robrenn is dominated by Druids, while Eusdria more resembles an early (10th-12th century) England. The word "Barbarian" is used because the two kingdoms were settled by barbarians driven south and west from their ancestral tribal lands by the expansion of Hule. They have a distinct connection to the Antalians, although the languages differ. IronWolf David Knott wrote: > > In a message dated 2000-02-07 4:50:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ironwolf@EWA.NET writes: > > << Well, either I'm really getting good at this, or likely because the map is > smaller, but the Barbarian Kingdoms of the Savage Coast are done! (Also, I > dallied around with labels and extrapolating new territory with the Savage > Baronies, so it took longer.) Drop by and let me know what you think. >> > > Please refresh our memories: Which regions of the Savage Coast are the > "Barbarian Kingdoms"? I cannot immediately figure out which region you > are talking about. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:26:27 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Immortal Gods In-Reply-To: <34.138c51b.25d269a0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:56 AM 2/9/00 EST, you wrote: >One thing I noticed about most of the modules designed for Immortal level >play is that they imported artwork (and maybe plot ideas?) from West End >Games' "Paranoia" game. Is this the appropriate tone for low level Immortal >adventures? Somehow I doubt it -- but I am ready to be persuaded otherwise. You must obey the Hierarchs. The Hierarchs are your friends. Do not question the Hierarchs. (Psst- Someone grab this guy for reprogramming...) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 03:39:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Immortal Gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-09 3:24:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << You must obey the Hierarchs. The Hierarchs are your friends. Do not question the Hierarchs. >> How silly of me! I did not think I was questioning the Hierarchs when I raised these questions -- but of course there is no other way that my remarks would have been interpreted by new citizens, er, Initiates. Anyway, never mind -- now that I have achieved Ultraviolet clearance I see the light and will not be raising any further questions. For those of you who are trying to follow up on my queries: Please give it up if you know what is good for you! ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:34:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a toss-up between Karameikos and Glantri, but Karameikos won. Glantri was a CLOSE second. George ----- Original Message ----- From: Francisco V. Navarro To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed > > > POLL RESULT: What is your preferred nation in Mystara? > > Votes 42 of 196 > > > > Glantri 20% > > Woohoo! The Principalities are on the lead! > > > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example > > of how many votes I need!!! > > Well, I think these people are all gonna vote for Glantri too... > > > George Hrabovsky <--I think he's half-Boldavian, half-Sylaire, like > Baroness Szasza Markovitch > > John Walter Biles <--definitely Fenswick > > Leroy Van Camp III <--Flaemish (former suitor of Princess Juliana) > > Marco Dalmonte <--Caurenzan, definitely > > Marco Giulio Fossati <--Caurenzan (survived the Great Meteor, contrary to > popular belief) > > Michael III Mysteria <--Hmm... just typical generic strange-named > Glantrian (as opposed to strange-named Alphatian, he has a surname). > > Patrick Sullivan <--Klantyre, I think > > Peter Balazs <--Hmm... I think he's an ally of House Haaskinz > > and many many many more > > VOTE!!!! > > Hehehe! :) > > Kit Navarro > Paparazzi Glantri > Speculator-in-Chief > fanavarro@pacific.net.ph > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:38:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Synn was one of the ULTIMATE bad guys in my last campaign (that ended after fifteen years!) She is BADDDDD!!!!! George ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranma Al'Thor To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Francisco V. Navarro wrote: > > > Well, I think these people are all gonna vote for Glantri too... > > > > > George Hrabovsky <--I think he's half-Boldavian, half-Sylaire, like > > Baroness Szasza Markovitch > > > John Walter Biles <--definitely Fenswick > > I'm afraid the idea of voting for a principality ruled by an evil dragon > doesn't appeal to me :) > > > John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas > ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu > rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html > rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ > > Magic Weapons: All AP rounds above 20 mm are considered as magic, as are > HE and other types above 50 mm. > --Strategic Review Vol. 1, #5, "Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery" > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:40:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is illegal to reproduce any work done by someone else without their permission unless you make substantial changes or additions to it, thus making it your work. George ----- Original Message ----- From: Leroy Van Camp III To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 11:38 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) > > There is a picture that one of they players in my group is looking for, > and I > > can't find it ANYWHERE! it is a picture of a half ogre wielding a great > > scimitar, from one of the supplemental books. he has a topknot and it is > a > > VERY nice picture by (i think) a Frank something. I know you know what > i'm > > talking about, so could somebody please point me to where it can be found, > > tell me the artists name, or just scan it in? I think it's in the Skills > and > > Powers book if that helps. > > Asking people to scan in images for you (other than from your > own books) is soliciting copyright violation. As per the list > guidelines, this is not allowed on the list. > > I do admit the bit on this topic is a little hazy, so I am just making > a general announcement on this one. I will likely update the guidelines > to be a bit more clear. > > Thank you. > > > Leroy Van Camp III > malacoda@uswest.net > http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html > ICQ #20039817 > > "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed > suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija > board, and she said she was free." > > November 17, "Wasted" > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:42:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Feebleminded Mortal Identities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:43:23 -0600, Ranma Al'Thor wrote: <> IIRC, WotI and old Immortal set say that an Immortal is always immune to any mind affecting spell or spell like power in ANY FORM. So, in this case the Immortal automatically saves from the Feeblemind spell. No problem anymore :) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:53:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:51:06 -0800, IronWolf wrote: <> I've got three Mystara campaigns running currently, and two of these three have got logs (one in the form of the personal diary of an investigator, the other in an informal third person synthetic summary covering 3 years in game). Unfortunately they are written in Italian and I don't plan on translating them. However, one of my players (my brother's girlfriend) is very good at drawing and is currently drawing a comic based on her group's adventures in Ylaruam. The drawings are damn good, mangaka (Japanese comics style), and I plan on scanning them and translating the texts as soon as this adventure is finished, so you may see them on my webpage in the future :) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:13:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Deathwatch Subject: Re: Meltheim's List o' Faith's and Avatars (LONG!!!!!) In-Reply-To: <77.165a13e.25d244e3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey, after reading this post (yeah I know I am a lurker, forgive me), I came across this: > Granted Powers: Turn Undead, May specialize in Bows and have bonus Blind-shooting Proficiency (see the Proficiencies Chapter q.v.) I've seen that Blind Shooting proficiency mentioned a few times already (can't recall where anymore tho), but I could never find anything on it. Where is it from and what are it's abilities? This mail does refer to a Proficiencies Chapter, but from what? --- Bas van Doornspeek ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:02:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Death Certificate of the MOrient Group (Was Re: Skothar: THONIA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I don't want to raise the MOrient Flag alone, But I have always liked the MChina stuff. In my files I have my MArtofWar idea for the Vulcanian peninsula region (remember that Tanagoro Colony?) I haven't done anything more than a rough sketch, but it's a start. I'll peruse through the MChina stuff, and see if I can give a rough sketch to that also. Ethan - Matriarchal MJapan? Count me in! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Immortal Gods In-Reply-To: <34.138c51b.25d269a0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > One thing I noticed about most of the modules designed for Immortal level > play is that they imported artwork (and maybe plot ideas?) from West End > Games' "Paranoia" game. Is this the appropriate tone for low level Immortal > adventures? Somehow I doubt it -- but I am ready to be persuaded otherwise. Not just artwork. The writer of IM3 was Ken Rolston. One the major contributors to Paranoia. (IM3 is also, perhaps, one of the sillier D&D modules. It does have an interesting plot and some good role-playing ideas, but at one point I think I recall the PCs ending up on an Outer Plane with 36 levels. Each level of the Plane had various creatures wandering around or guarding boxes of treasure, and a number of mortal "test subjects" wandered around the Plane trying to reach the 36th level.) Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:31:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000208223306.007c82c0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 12:22 AM 2/9/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Ah. Hmmm...well, I think my rationale would work for people who follow > >this track. Personally, I usually set my games so that the gods are > >Immortals, same beings, different names, so I see where you are coming > >from. However, if the Mystaran multiverse can have Odin, Thor > >and Loki around, I'll bet that the Olympians are around somewhere too, > >even if they aren't active on Mystara. > > That's a good point. And your theory on the Laterran Olympians is a sound > one for this particular point of view. Perhaps another rationale for the > Immortal heresy (in such a case) would be that the fledgling Immortals > decided to take on the names and identities of Immortals who were known to > exist elsewhere, but didn't have any followers or interests in Mystara > itself. Thus, the fledgling Immortals decided it wouldn't do any harm, but > of course, the Hierarchs disagreed. Hm. That would work. The fledglings are flaunting their disrespect for their elders in two ways then - by manipulating the Prime in direct violation of the laws of the Immortals AND by using identities of elder Immortals without their knowledge or permission. I think I would like to see some additional reason for the Hierarchs to be so concerned with the actions of these fledglings, if only to pump up the drama of this adventure. Perhaps if the Hierarchs did nothing and the Olympians discovered the charade they would not only take offense, but try to do something about it. A "War in the Heavens" could result. Of course, this would leave open the question of why the Immortals of Entropy would want to stop it, and whether the Laterran Olympians fit into the regular hierarchy of the Immortals. Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:27:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: That one picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: > There is a picture that one of they players in my group is looking for, and I > can't find it ANYWHERE! it is a picture of a half ogre wielding a great > scimitar, from one of the supplemental books. he has a topknot and it is a > VERY nice picture by (i think) a Frank something. I know you know what i'm > talking about, so could somebody please point me to where it can be found, > tell me the artists name, or just scan it in? I think it's in the Skills and > Powers book if that helps. Thanks! > > Meltheim the Shadowstalker > Infiltrator to the Immortals > Devotee of Fate > Eyes of the Starwatcher hello meltheim you are allright the pic is in the Skills and Power book (page 40). the Artist is Fred Fields and year is `95. but i haven`t got an scanner. the elves should hold together. send me a line Privatly you told no the list that Meltheim may be dead. are you dead or not? i think i you could tell me where your body or a part is i could let you ressurect. Erewan Laubgaenger is still in Faith. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:05:50 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Glantrian Paparazzi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << Kit Navarro > Paparazzi Glantri >> > > I cannot believe it -- were you truly the one who spread to the entire > multiverse those delightful images of Lady Natalie (of House Portman) > from her vacation in Ierendi? ;) The Paparazzi Glantri has a large staff, fully-qualified in a wide variety of divinations and illusions. There's nothing like a good ol' Programmed Illusion and False Vision combination to keep those audiences riveted to their Crystal Balls. Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:54:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: That one picture In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: > There is a picture that one of they players in my group is looking for, and I > can't find it ANYWHERE! it is a picture of a half ogre wielding a great > scimitar, from one of the supplemental books. he has a topknot and it is a > VERY nice picture by (i think) a Frank something. I know you know what i'm > talking about, so could somebody please point me to where it can be found, > tell me the artists name, or just scan it in? I think it's in the Skills and > Powers book if that helps. Thanks! Frank Frazetta? He did alot of Conan stuff and similar artwork. There are several galleries with his art on the web. They should be fairly easy to find. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Immortal Gods > >"The Computer has designated this urban sector 'Specularum'. Failure to address >this sector by it's proper name is treason." Very well, Friend Computer. The Commie Mutant Insurgent Traitor-U-SSS-4 (a High Programmer no less!), who had deceptively passed himself off as one "King Stefan", will be terminated appropriately by means of voluntary freefall impact simulation. Geoff ----> Happiness Is Mandatory --- Are You Happy, Citizen? <---- -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:26:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I believe that that island actually IS Yannivey, or now Floating Ar. > Actually, no: the Yannivey islands where Floating Ar now resides (bad choice on their part, but I didn't make it) are further west, near Qeodhar (well, actually not "near" Qeodhar, but about half way between Esterhold & Qeodhar). > I think the best place for Thonia would be the Thonian marshes, which is the > peninsula across from Esterhold on the Bay of Thorin, that's my two-bits. > Thonia would include those marshes, but not be wholely contained within them. In fact, judging by the map there isn't much marshland per se (it'd all be permaice anyhow) - more steppelands than marshlands. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:31:02 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Bellisaria is the only territory that would be vulnerable to assault from > Minaea or other nations of Skothar. And while it is unimportant in terms > of population, I cannot help imagining that its vast land area serves as a > "bread basket" for mainland Alphatia, and that any attempt by any nation > of Skothar to land troops on and/or conquer that island would certainly > force the Alphatians to abort any campaign in the west and send troops > to Bellisaria to deal with the problem there. > Well, again, as far as Bellisaria being vulnerable or not to assault, one first has to posit the existance of a nation with a fleet large enough to transport significant troops to actually threaten such an invasion and make it appear like it could be successful. Minaea, the nearest, is not such a nation: it is not unitary - it is divided among city states, and though many of them are seafaring they likely lack a fleet strong enough to really desire to tangle with the Alphatian. But if you have any ideas regarding a power that might pose such a threat, by all means post them. Then things will go from vague speculation to something tangible that can be discussed. 8-) Like I said in another post, then we can toss out the DotE BoP and focus on one that people will find more pleasing. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:34:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Alexander Brown Subject: Re: Mystara Campaigns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- IronWolf wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, how many people on the list > are currently running Mystara > campaigns? Well, I have a campaign that is supposed to start any day now. Unfortuantely, it is delayed by the typical snafus that have become all too familiar to most of us. One of the players is currently in Maui for another week and when he gets back, we still have to resolve the age old question of "what night to play". Of course, this had all been decided and agreed upon by all parties involved. Then, the night before the one player goes on vacation, another player says Sundays won't work for her anymore! AAAAARRRGGGH!!!! Sorry 'bout that, folks. I just had to vent a little. The sad thing is that I can imagine that there are several of you out there that can identify with my situation all too well. Why is it so difficult to get a game together? :o( -Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:08:37 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara Humanoid Faiths & Avatars] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: >>In a message dated 2000-02-08 10:38:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>obbing0@POP.UKY.EDU writes: > > ><< Yagrai "He who always rises" >> > >"Vaprak" Actually, isn't Jammudaru "Vaprak"? I seem to recall that the entry for Jammudaru in Gaz10 mentions that he is also known as Vaprak. I don't beli= eve tht Yagrai has any AD&D equivalent. = Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:41:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Immortal Gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > (IM3 is also, perhaps, one of the sillier D&D modules. It does have an > interesting plot and some good role-playing ideas, but at one point I > think I recall the PCs ending up on an Outer Plane with 36 levels. Each > level of the Plane had various creatures wandering around or guarding > boxes of treasure, and a number of mortal "test subjects" wandered around > the Plane trying to reach the 36th level.) > It also has Slobbovia, a place I for one will never forget 8-). And, of course, "The Warren", a place run by a sophisticated, but insane computer ("trust the abacus, the abacus is your friend" and all that). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:46:43 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia: Immortal reference, IM3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Btw, looking over IM3 after the discussion of that module started I saw a reference at the begining to "Marick of Glevum, Archbiship of Thonia and High Cleric of Serison" - Glevum would make a good town or Province in Thonia. Serison is either a Thonian Immortal (who'd that be? A new one or a different name for one of the ones we have? Anyone want to guess?) or the name of the Thonian capital (thus if you dislike Thorin as the name for it, use Serison), or both (stranger things have happened. Athena/Athens - identify your burg with your favorite diety and hope for the best. Could be Serison/Serens: Immortal/Burg name). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:57:16 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeremy Morris wrote: > >Of course, this would leave open the question of why the Immortals of >Entropy would want to stop it, and whether the Laterran Olympians fit >i= nto the regular hierarchy of the Immortals. Especially since the rationale given in the module flies completely in th= e face of what the Gold Box says about the Entropics. To wit: Nyx wants to eliminate the 7 upstart Immortals in order to create= room in the ranks of the Immortals to advance Nyx' own candidates. Yet, the Go= ld Box says that the numbers of the Entropics is *equal* to the number of Immortals of all the other spheres combined (for reasons of balance). So,= if anything, Nyx should encourage those Immortals, and protect them, so that= Entropy will be stronger. Of course, that rule doesn't really work in a couple of ways- 1) if any o= ther Immortal dies, does Entropy have to kill one of its own? and 2) the exact= number of Immortals of Entropy is given in different amounts IIRC, in the= Gold Box. I know at one point it says equal to the number of other Immortals, = and I think at another point it says something different. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim]] In-Reply-To: <20000209165716.16835.qmail@awcst094.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > Jeremy Morris wrote: > > > >Of course, this would leave open the question of why the Immortals of > >Entropy would want to stop it, and whether the Laterran Olympians fit >into > the regular hierarchy of the Immortals. > > Especially since the rationale given in the module flies completely in the > face of what the Gold Box says about the Entropics. > > To wit: Nyx wants to eliminate the 7 upstart Immortals in order to create room > in the ranks of the Immortals to advance Nyx' own candidates. Yet, the Gold > Box says that the numbers of the Entropics is *equal* to the number of > Immortals of all the other spheres combined (for reasons of balance). So, if > anything, Nyx should encourage those Immortals, and protect them, so that > Entropy will be stronger. Hm. Nyx should also be protecting these Immortals because their actions are actually futhuring Entropy's cause (destruction, chaos, etc.) It would probably make more sense if the Hierarch of a different Sphere was trying to destroy the upstarts and/or use their Power for his own ends. Terra would then be trying to rescue "her" Immortals from this Hierarch and stop him from destroying them. The Entropics could be in there trying to mess things up for both sides (much as they did in WotI), or they could be trying to siphon off the power of the renegades while the other two duke it out. In fact, this makes the adventure a touch more interesting. The "bad guys" aren't necessarily the Entropics, but a group of other Immortals working for another Hierarch. Throw in some political debate in Pandius over what to do with the renegades and this could be a really good Immortal adventure. > Of course, that rule doesn't really work in a couple of ways- 1) if any other > Immortal dies, does Entropy have to kill one of its own? and 2) the exact > number of Immortals of Entropy is given in different amounts IIRC, in the Gold > Box. I know at one point it says equal to the number of other Immortals, and I > think at another point it says something different. Gah! I'd forgotten about that. I vaguely remember that being mentioned, but nothing was ever really done with it. Hmmm, so every time a Sphere gains a new member Entropy also gains a member? I suppose that if a non-Entropic Immortal dies the Entropics don't have to eliminate a member, they just don't gain a new member when the next "positive" Immortal appears. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:24:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Glantrian Paparazzi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" ha scritto: > > << Kit Navarro > > Paparazzi Glantri >> > > > > I cannot believe it -- were you truly the one who spread to the entire > > multiverse those delightful images of Lady Natalie (of House Portman) > > from her vacation in Ierendi? ;) Oh, I saw them too!! maybe I should visit her next time I'm in Glantri!!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:30:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Immortal Gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IronWolf ha scritto:"The Computer has designated this urban sector 'Specularum'. Failure to address > this sector by it's proper name is treason." Your quotes are getting more original and better each time. Yesterday I passed through my 'marvelous quotes' file and found the ol' quote from the bottom of your Nithia article. It was something like 'It's...it's...hey, I knew it, but it feels like someone cast a spell of forgetfullness on me' It's SPECULARUM, yes! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:45:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Burtin Organization: K.A.O.S. Subject: Re: Hawk and Falcons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's the info from the Ranger's handbook. If you want the OD&D stats, send me a mail and I'll scan them from Creature Catalog.

Falconry

   This is most properly the Animal Training (Falcon) proficiency. A character with this proficiency is an expert in training and handling falcons, enabling him to teach them tricks and tasks (This proficiency also allows the training of hawks at a -1 penalty. Owls are a separate proficiency and can be trained at -2).
   A character can teach a falcon 2d4 (2-8) tricks or tasks in any combination. It takes 2d6 weeks to teach the falcon a trick, three months for a task. At the end of a training period, the character makes a proficiency check. If the check succeeds, the falcon has learned the trick or task. If the check fails, the falcon is incapable of learning more.
   If not using falconry training equipment (see Chapter 7), the success roll required for training is penalized by -2.
   Crossover Groups: General.

   Note: The foregoing is the standard proficiency. Optionally, the training rules for rangers given in Chapter 3 can be used. Training times and number of tricks/tasks may vary.

   Sample general tasks:
   Hunting: The falcon is trained to hunt its natural prey: small mammals and game birds; and to return with them to the falconer. Nearly all trained falcons receive this training first.
   Ferocity: The falcon receives a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls, and a +2 morale bonus.
   Guard: The falcon shrieks at the approach of strangers. If approached closer than 20' or 30', the falcon will attack unless ordered not to. The bird can recognize designated friends.
   Homing: The falcon recognizes one place as its roost and returns there upon command.
   Loyalty: The falcon is exceptionally loyal to an individual selected by the trainer. It has a +4 saving throw bonus against charm, control, empathy, or friendship attempts by others. Further, it comes when the individual summons it, guards its master from attack and may perform unusual acts of loyalty as decided by the DM.
   Species Enemy: The falcon is trained to recognize an entire species as a natural enemy. Its basic reaction will be hostile, it will reject empathy, and have a +4 saving throw bonus against the enemy's charm or control attempts. It will attack the species enemy in preference to others.
   Track: The falcon will track a designated creature and return. It can retrace its path to lead the falconer to the creature.

   Sample specific tricks:
   Attack: The falcon will attack on command a creature designated by the falconer until called off. The falcon's base morale is at least 11. The falcon receives a save vs. rods against another ranger's animal empathy ability.
   Capture Prey: A hunt-trained falcon will return with the prey alive and unharmed.
   Catch Object: Upon command, the falcon will catch a small object thrown into the air or a small falling object and return to the falconer.
   Distract: The falcon is trained to feint at an opponent. The opponent must make a saving throw vs. paralysis or lose its next action.
   Eye Attack: The falcon is trained to strike at an opponent's eyes. A beak hit has a 25% chance of striking an eye. An opponent struck in the eye is blinded for 1d4 rounds and has a 10% chance of permanently losing sight in the eye.
   Hand Signals: The falcon can be commanded by hand signals as well as by voice.
   Hide Object: The falcon takes an object from the falconer, flies away with it, and conceals it. The falcon will retrieve the object on command.
   Pit Fighting: The falcon is trained as a fighting bird. It has a +2 attack bonus against any fighting bird that is not so trained.
   Recall: The falcon will immediately return to the falconer upon receiving the command.
   Nemesis: The falcon is trained to attack a specific individual. The falcon never checks morale when attacking the individual.
 

 Falconry Gauntlet. Also called a perch glove, this is a heavy arm-length glove of thick leather upon which a falcon or hawk can perch.
 
 Falcon Training Equipment. This equipment makes falcon training more efficient. A character using the falconry proficiency without this equipment suffers a -2 penalty to training proficiency checks. One set is required for each falcon.
 
 Each set consists of jesses (leather bands with rings, attached to the falcon's legs), talon guards (metal coverings for the bird-s claws to prevent it from harming the owner during training), a creance (a slender leather leash attached to the jesses, held by the user or secured to the perch glove), and a hood (a leather covering fitting over the falcon-s head that restricts vision; the hood forces the falcon to rely on its senses of hearing, touch, and taste). Customized or richly appointed equipment, such as an embroidered hood or golden jesses, is also available, usually at double or triple the normal price.
 
Falconry Gauntlet 5 sp 1 lb
Falconry Training  Equipment 10 gp 1 lb

Monster Manual entry dor BIRD:
 

Bird

Bird #AP AC MV HD THAC0 #AT Dmg/AT Morale XP            Value
Blood Hawk 4-15 7 1, Fl 24 (B) 1+1 19 3 1-4/1-4/1-6 Steady (11) 120
Boobrie 1-2 5 15, Fl 15 (D) 9 11 3 1-6(x2)/2-16 Steady (11-12) 2,000
Condor 1-2 7 3, Fl 24 (D) 3+3 17 1 2-5 Average (8-10) 175
Crow (See Raven)
Eagle, Giant 1-20 7 3, Fl 48 (D) 4 17 3 1-6/1-6/2-12 Elite (13) 420
Eagle, Wild 5-12 6 1, Fl 30 (C) 1+3 19 3 1-2/1-2/1 Average (9) 175
Eblis 4-16 3 12, Fl 12 (C) 4+4 15 4 1-4(x4) Champion (15-16) 650
          (normal)
          1,400
          (spell
          user)
Falcon 1-2 5 1, Fl 36 (B) 1-1 20 3 1/1/1 Unsteady (6) 65
Flightless 2-20 7 18 1-3     1-2 HD:  1 1 HD: 1-4 Average (8-10) 1 HD:15
      19
      3 HD:17   2HD: 1-6  2 HD:35
        3HD:1-8  3HD:65
Hawk, Large 1-2 6 1, Fl 33 (B) 1 19  3 1-2/1-2/1 Average (9) 65
Owl  1 (2) 5 1, Fl 27 (D) 1 19 3 1-2/1-2/1 Unsteady (5-7) 65
Owl, Giant 2-5 6 3, Fl 18 (E) 4 17 3 2-8/2-8/2-5 Steady (11-12) 270
Owl, Talking 1 3 1, Fl 36 (C) 2+2 19 3 1-4/1-4/1-2 Champion (15) 975
Raven 4-32 7 1, Fl 36 (B) 1-2 hp 20 1 1 Average (8-10) 15
Raven, Huge 2-8 6 1, FL 27 (C) 1-1 20 1 1-2 Steady (11-12) 35
Raven, Giant 4-16 4 3, Fl 18 (D) 3+2 17 1 3-6 Elite (13-14) 175
Swan 2-16 7 3, Fl 18 (D) 1+2 19 3 1/1/1-2 Unsteady (6) 65
Vulture 4-24 6 3, Fl 27 (E) 1+1 19 1 1-2 Unsteady (5-7) 65
Vulture, Giant 2-12 7 3, Fl 24 (D) 2+2 19 1 1-4 Average (8-10) 120
 

Avians, whether magical or mundane in nature, are among the most interesting creatures ever to evolve. Their unique physiology sets them apart from all other life, and their grace and beauty have earned them a place of respect and adoration in the tales of many races.

Blood Hawk
Blood hawk hunt in flocks and are fond of humanoids. They continue to attack humans even if the melee has gone against them. Male blood hawks kill humans not only for food but also for gems, which they use to line their nests as an allurement to females.

Boobrie
The boobrie, giant relative of the stork, stands 12 feet tall. A boobrie's diet consists of giant catfish and other wetland denizens. When times are lean, the boobrie feeds on snakes, lizards, and giant spiders. Its occasional dependence on a diet of creatures that deliver a toxic bite has made the boobrie immune to all poisons. When a boobrie hunts, it finds a grove of tall marsh grass or similar vegetation and slips into it. Once in its hunting blind, it remains still for hours at a time, until prey comes within sight. When employing this means of ambush, its opponents suffer a -3 penalty to their surprise rolls.

Condor
Condors measure three to six feet and have a wingspan of 13 to 20 feet. They rarely land except to feed -- they even sleep in flight. Condor eggs and hatchlings are worth 30-60 gp. They can be trained to act as spotters or retrievers. Humanoids of small or tiny size can train them as aerial mounts. Used in this way, they can carry 80 pounds, either held in their claws or riding atop their backs.

Eagle
An eagle typically attacks from great heights, letting gravity hurtle it toward its prey. If an eagle dives more than 100 feet, its diving speed is double its normal flying speed and the eagle is restricted to attacking with its claws. These high-speed attacks gain a +2 attack bonus and double damage. Eagles are never surprised because of their exceptional eyesight and hearing. Eagles mate for life and, since they nest in one spot, it is easy to identify places where eagles are normally present. On occasion, in an area of rich feeding, 1d8+4 eagles are encountered instead of the normal individual or pair. Eagles generally hunt rodents, fish, and other small animals. Eagles also feed on the carrion of recently killed creatures as well. Eagles never attack humanoids, though small creatures like brownies have to be wary of a hunting eagle.

Eagle, Giant
Giant eagles stand 10 feet tall and have wing spans of up to 20 feet. They share the coloration and fighting methods of their smaller cousins. However, if a giant eagle dives more than 50 feet, it adds +4 to its attack roll and doubles its claw damage.
 Giant eagles have exceptional eyesight and hearing and cannot be surprised except at night or in their lair, and then only 10% of the time. Far more social than normal eagles, up to 20 nests can be found in the same area, one nest for each mated pair. Giant eagles can be trained, and their eggs sell for 500 to 800 gp.

Eblis
Their bodies look like those of storks, with grey, tan, or off-white plumage on their bodies and sleek black necks. Their heads are narrow and end in long, glossy-black, needle-like beaks. Eblis speak a language of chirps, whistles, and deep-throated hoots. In addition, spellcasting eblis have managed to learn a rudimentary version of common, allowing them to converse with those they encounter. Each community is led by one individual with spellcasting ability. These eblis cast 2d4 spells per day as 3rd-level casters. To determine the available spells, roll 1d8 and consult the following table. Duplicate rolls indicate the spell may be employed more than once per day.
 

 Roll Spell Roll Spell
 1 Audible glamer 5 Hypnotic pattern
 2 Blur 6 Spook
 3 Change self 7 Wall of fog
 4 Hypnotism 8 Whispering wind
 

 Eblis love shiny objects (like gems); even the most wise and powerful of the eblis can be bribed with an impressive jewel. An eblis community consists of 2d4 huts built from straw and grasses common to the marsh around the community. Care is taken by the eblis to make these huts difficult to detect. In fact, only a determined search of the area by a ranger or someone with the animal lore proficiency is likely to uncover the community.
 All eblis secrete an oil that coats their feathers and provides them with a +1 bonus to all saving throws against fire- and flame-based attacks. Any damage caused by a fire- or flame-based attack is lessened by -1 for each die of damage.
 The evil nature of the eblis is best seen in the delight it takes in hunting and killing. When an eblis spots travelers who have objects it desires for its nest, it attacks. Since the eblis is cunning, these attacks often take the forms of ambushes.

Falcon
Falcons are smaller, swifter, and more maneuverable than hawks. These birds of prey are easily trained and are preferred by hunters over hawks. Trained falcons sell for around 1,000 gp each.

Flightless Bird
These avians are typified by the ostrich, emu, and rhea. Although they share many of the physiological adaptations that enable other birds to take wing and break the bonds of earth, they are unable to fly.
 The ostrich is the largest and strongest, standing 8 feet tall and weighing 300 pounds. The animal's small head and short, flat beak are perched atop a long, featherless neck. The ostrich fans is able to run at 40 miles per hour. If forced to fight, an ostrich uses its legs to deliver a kick that inflicts 1d8 points of damage.
 The emu reaches 6 feet high and 130 pounds. Unlike those of their larger cousins, the wings of an emu are rudimentary appendages hidden beneath their coarse, hair-like feathers.
 The rhea resembles a small ostrich, standing 3 feet tall and weighs 80 pounds. The differences between the two species lie in the structure of the feet and the tail feathers. Ostriches have two toes, while rheas have three, and ostriches have elegant, flowing tail plumes, while the rhea's are far shorter. Long feathers on the bird's sides swoop down to cover the stunted tail feathers.

Hawk
Hawks have wingspans up to 5 feet. They attack in plummeting dives, usually from a height of 100 feet or more. This dive gives them a +2 attack bonus, enabling their talons to inflict double damage. Hawks cannot attack with their beaks during the round in which they use a dive attack. After the initial dive, hawks fight by biting and pecking with their beaks, tearing at their opponents with their talons. Hawks target eyes and they have a 25% probability of striking an eye whenever its beak strikes. Opponents struck in the eye are blinded for 1dl0 rounds and have a 10% chance of losing the use of the eye. Because of their superior eyesight, hawks can never be surprised. Any intruder threatening the nest is attacked, regardless of size. If taken young and trained by an expert, hawks can be taught to hunt. Fledglings bring 500 gp and trained hawks sell for as much as 1,200 gp.

Owl
Owls hunt rodents, small lizards, and insects, attacking humans only when frightened (or magically commanded). They have  120' infravision and quadruple normal hearing. They fly in total silence, giving their prey a -6 penalty to their surprise rolls. Owls cannot be surprised during hours of dusk and darkness; during daylight hours, their eye sight is worse than that of humans, suffering a -3 on their surprise roll if discovered in their daylight roosting place. Owls attack with sharp talons and hooked beaks. If they swoop from a height of 50 feet or more, each attack is +2 and inflicts double damage, but no beak attack is possible.

Owl, Giant
These nocturnal creatures inhabit very wild areas, preying on rodents, large game birds, and rabbits. They are too large to gain swoop bonuses but can fly in nearly perfect silence; opponents suffer a -6 on their surprise roll. Giant owls may be friendly toward humans, though they are naturally suspicious. Parents will fight anything that threatens their young. Eggs sell for 1,000 sp and hatchlings sell for 2,000 sp.

Owl, Talking
Talking owls appear as ordinary owls, but speak common and six other languages (DM's option). Their role is to serve and advise champions of good causes on dangerous quests, which they do for 1d3 weeks if treated kindly on the first encounter; a talking owl feigns a broken wing to see how a party will react. Talking owls can detect good. They have a wisdom score of 21, with the appropriate spell immunities.

Raven (Crow)
Ravens and crows are often mistaken as bad omens by superstitious farmers and peasants. They attack with strong claws and their long, sharp beaks. Ravens employ a grab and peck approach to combat. These birds are 10% likely to attack an opponent's eyes. If successful, the attack causes the opponent to lose an eye. All birds of this type travel in flocks. Any encountered solo are actually scouts. As soon as they see any approaching creature, the scouts give warning cries and maintain a safe distance to keep track of them. Because of the scouts, ravens cannot be surprised during daylight conditions.

Raven, Giant
Giant ravens are both pugnacious and easily trained (if raised from fledglings), and are often used as guards and messengers. While they are too small to be used as mounts by all but small humanoids (i.e., faerie folk and PCs under the effects of a potion of diminution), the strength of these birds is enough to carry an adult halfling.

Raven, Huge
Huge ravens have malicious dispositions, occasionally serving evil masters. Not all raven familiars and consorts are evil -- the alignment of the master is a decisive factor in such arrangements.

Swan
These aquatic birds tend to inhabit areas frequented by similar waterfowl. Such areas include rivers, ponds, lakes, and marshes. Swans posses acute senses. They are 90% likely to detect intruders. There is a 10% chance that any swan encounter includes one or more swanmays (q.v.) in avian form.

Vulture
Vultures are scavengers that search the skies for injured or dead creatures to feed upon. They measure 2 to 3 feet long with a wingspan of up to 7 feet. Greasy blue-black feathers cover the torso and wings; its pink head is bald. Vultures are cowards, and will wait until an intended meal stops moving. If six or more vultures are present, they may attack a weakly moving victim. If the victim defends itself, the vultures move out of reach but maintain their deathwatch. Creatures that are unconscious, dead, or magically sleeping or held are potential meals. If the surviving combatants are further than 20 feet from the fallen creatures, the vultures alight and begin feeding. Because of their diet, vultures kin have developed a natural resistance to disease and organic toxins.

Vulture, Giant
Giant vultures measure 3 to 5 feet. Domesticated giant vultures can be trained to associate specific species (i.e., as humanoids) with food, hence the birds concentrate on locating those creatures. Giant vulture eggs and hatchlings are worth 30-60 gp.
 

Luca Toni a écrit :

Hey boys   I'm looking for the stats of some monster,such as HAWK and FLCONS. My PG has the skill offalconery, ability to train animals like hawkand falcons, teaching 'em to fight and to carrylittle objects.Has anyone got some stats of those animals(and some other specify about falconery)? Thanx                           Luca Toni
                newspell@hotmail.comwww.geocities.com/area51/domension/3121
******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:14:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Glantrian Paparazzi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i couldn't see them but if you have a url i'll be happy to gossip about her look. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:50:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Calengaer, the green ocean!!! Comments: To: mystara_french@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello everyone.As you all know my mother tongue is not english and i am not a professionnal translator.So please forgive me for all the mistakes that i may have commited.And do not hesitate to send me back a corrected version of the following post.This is a gazetteer-like description of an elven nation of Skothar.I am not the author of this , it was just shared with me on the French MML and i took upon myself to translate it for you.Tel me what you think of it but more importantly tell it to the original author, Frederic Perronet (lcf.montpellier@lacompagniedeformation.fr). Here it is: welcome to Calengaer, the Green Ocean. Calengaer, the green ocean. History: As the elves know it: Ages ago sciences and technics were tought to us by the men from Blackmoor, but those sciences were corruptive and soon, men were not able to see that the most perfect machine was Nature. We had to flee their destructive folly.So we took shelter in a secluded valley to give Nature another chance, and there she bloomed. But once again men came and tried to baffle Her.Then happen Ornmeletyar�, the day of the big trees, and men perished.Since then, we have been living on Calengaer. Humans have reappeared,and their numbers have grown, so we hope they also have grown in wisdom. As the immortals know it: BC3500: Elven clan Anuliinde leave Evergrun to settle near Blackmoor and start to follow the way of technology and sciences. BC3200: Belorfiwyn from Clan Anuliinde invents dirigible balloon. Under his tutelage, the researches of the clan are oriented towards ecology, renewable energy and so on... BC3100: Anuliinde Clan clashes with the empire of Blackmoor for ecological reasons. The retaliations are severe and decimate about 80% of the clan population, which remains under the military juridiction of the empire. BC3005: The Anuliinde, led by Belorfiwyn, flee Blackmoor on 10 gigantic dirigible balloons they have secretly built. BC3000: After a 5 years journey, 8 dirigibles reache Evergrun where Clan Anuliinde find shelter among Clan Nadriendel. The pessimistic previsions made by Belorfiwyn become reality and the destruction of Blackmoor forces both clans to take refuge in the dirigibles to flee Evergrun. BC2990: After the great rain of fire, only 5 dirigibles remain. Under Belorfiwyn will they have been united to form one formidable flying city, Filmaelle, a self-sufficient community. BC2900: Tired to live in a confined space the Nadriendel elves rebell against the Anuliinde. The conflict has a dire consequence since it forces the flying city to crash on the continent known as Skothar. The wreckage has badly damaged the dirigibles and the city of Filmaelle is immobilized. The region is very cold and desert, it is a simple toundra stuck between high mountains. Life becomes so harsh for both clans that they join their efforts to survive. BC2898: Using the agricultural methods and the technics from the dirigibles, life grows and a first city is built around Filmaelle. It is named Ymlyn (Ebony) after the first tree to be planted (which seed came from Evergrun). BC2886: Belorfiwyn creates the Marwar, a parasitic fungus which increases both the culture's resistance to the climate and the production. BC2882: Belorfiwyn take the air with his fixed dirigible the Celorfimir, in order to gather all the tree species he can find around the world. BC2500: Last flight of the Celorfimir, which tows the four other dirigibles in the valley to provide a core to four new cities.The Celorfimir settles around Ymlin. BC2400: Newly born forest dots the landscape.They are composed by the different species Bellorfiwyn brought back from his trip: Oaks, Acacia,Maple trees, Poplars, and so on...The four new cities are named Celithrarith (Oak City), Elvawen (Maple Tree City), Sebrildur (Chestnut Tree City), and Manereteriel (Cedar City). BC2000: Magnifiscent forests cover the totality of the valley. The Ainuliinde and Nadriendel clans have merged and are named from now on the Anuliindriendel. BC900: To celebrate the second millenium since their arrival, Belorfael (descendant of Belorfiwyn) developp the Trarwar (a variety of Marwar which double the growing capabilities of the trees).This fungus is inoculated to the five symbolic trees of the cities and planted at the core of the cities. BC550: A Nithian expeditionnary force takes control of the valley. Nithian priests and magicians discover the remains of technology used in the dirigibles.They conduct experiments on the five dirigibles. BC540: Belorfanwyl (also descending from Bleorfiwyn), creates a mutated version of the Trarwar, the Uurwar (almost immediate effects and ten times stronger than the Marwar). Helped by the Elven resistance, the fungus is is sread everywhere in the valley. The elves secretly prepare themselves to a radical and swift change of their environment. When the fungus are magically activated, the trees mutate and grows hundred of meters high in a matter of hours. The Nithian expeditionnary force is disorganized first and then crushed by the elvish resistance. Meanwhile , the elvish population settles up at the top of the trees. While renouncing to the last remains of Blackmoorian technology, the Anuliindriendel starts a new life. BC530: The five cities are moved to the top of the trees they were named after. The foot of the trees, already difficult to reach is made impossible to reach because of the toxic emanations of the Urwar.A web of trails is set in the foliage allowing easier communications between the cities. BC500: The first Amber pearls are discovered. BC450: First apparition of the flying jellyfish and of the Taurinangwas. BC220: Eoradreinduil from Manereteriel builds the first cyme-raft, a sort of boat allowing to navigate on Calengaer. AC150 Eoradrienduil now settled in Celithrarith builds the first gondolfi�re, first ship to really float on the Calengaer AC800: The five cities of the Green Ocean are just like we know them today. Numerous forester villages dot the canopy.Cyme-rafts and gondolfi�res travel the valley, their crews are called Sylmarins, the sailors of the Sylph. AC1000: Time of the gazetteers. Geography and ecology. The land: Located on the continent of Skothar, Calengaer, the Green Ocean, is a fantastic forest at the north-eastern end of the valley.Its surface is around 100000 square kilometers. It is surrounded on three sides by high mountains, and is limited at the South West by the confluence of the Ringsirith and Sir�th rivers which flow to Urcdacil lake. Only the top of the forest is accessible, and the cyme of the trees constitutes the domain of the Ainuliindriendel elves. By foot or using their special ships they travel across this green ocean, fishing the Amber Pearls and fighting the Taurinangwas or the Ornloces (the dragon of the depths). The vegetation is so dense, that noone knows what the soil looks like 900 hundred feet below. Here and there, even bigger trees go through the foliage, and onto them are set the five elvish cities and numerous smaller villages. The Climate: Although under a relatively high latitude, Calengaer has the advantage of a mild climate. This is mainly due to the heat released by the forest. Only in the north do snowfalls happen. Vegetation: The forest is made of all the essences of trees but all of them are incredibly high.The average height of the foliage is 900 feet.That diversity is also rendered in the surface where different types of foliage meets. The nature of the trees has a direct impact on the possibilities of travels among the trees (branches of different size, thickness of the foliage) thus allowing a fast progression or not (both for the ships and by foot). A great number of parasitic fungus can be found among the trees, some of them eatable, other being used as combustible stuff or rough wood for the local craftmanship. Agriculture: Mainly based on fruit gathering. Fruits can be picked to be comsumed dried or fresh, like cherries, apples, plums, peaches, nuts...but most of the food is based on chestnuts and olives. The cattle: One of the rare animals to be raised to be eaten is the khouli-khouli, raised in flock, those multicolored birds look like big dodos.Their flesh tastes like spicy chicken, their feathers serve for arrows, and their shimmering eggs serve as plates and exotic cups.The main problem with the placid Khouli-khouli is their behaviour which respond to the intonation of the voice. With them, it's better to speak with calm, or to throw them into panic or make them aggressive. The exceptionaly rare and mythical wild Khouli-khouli is much bigger and much more dangerous.His powerful beak can pearce even the strongest armors. There are also pigeons and cyme-quails. Hunting: Numerous birds and rodents are hunted with blowguns or bows just to diversify the food.The taurinangwa and the wild Khouli-khouli are hunted for sport, even if the flesh of the second is famous for its delicious taste and because a part of the anatomy of the first is used to make air-masks. Water: Water is quite rare when you live at the top of the trees. Celithrarith (Oak-Port) , located straight above lake Urcdacil , has an ingenious mechanical system which uses the waterfalls of the Sir�th river to convey water up to the city itself. Elvawen ( Maple-Port ) collect water from the neighbouring mountains to the north and canalize it in wooden pipes. Manereteriel ( Cedar-Port ), has a well inside its trunk coupled with a wind-animated system to bring up water to the level of the city.Ymlin ( Ebony-Port ), and Sebrildur ( Cestnuttree-Port ) , use the same ways as the villages: they import water and gather it with dew-sails.Little ponds exists in the hollow of the branches but their location are jaleously kept secret. Fire: As a consequence of the mutation of the trees, they are now fireproof. the only fuel available are some parasitic mushrooms , and the guano from the khouli-khouli, but the latter emits unfortunately a foul and unpleasant odor. Under the foliage: The density of the foliage is so high that beneath the surface , that is to say one or two meters below it is as if you were in an aquatic environment.For about 150 meters (450 feet) moving is similar to swimming in an emeraldish sea which soon becomes opaque.The absence of visual landmarks tends to make horizontal moves hazardous.The natural gravity helps people figuring out where is up and where is down. But it is very difficult to evluate the distances. The Pearl fishers which evolve at this level use four "stabs" , sort of glove which can be unfolded like the wings of a bat and allow the diver to stabilize itself at a certain height by increasing the lift effect. After 30 meters (90 feet) , the air is filled with toxic vapours emanating from the Uurwars.Elves then use air-masks to filter the air.Those heights (or depths) are the hunting ground of the taurinangwas, also called forest sharks.The following 100 meters (300 feet) are constituted by trunks and branches but without any leaves because there is no light reaching that depth. The trunks heve diameters varying from dozen of meters to hundred of meters for the biggest.They are so big that you acn't see further than 18 meters (36 feet).The vision is all the more difficult that no light comes from above. it is there that Taurinangwas nest.They are the only creatures occupying those depths apart from the embryonic flying jellyfish. Under the bark of the trees one can find the rare Amber Pearls , along with the Uurwar fungus.Moving at that depth requires a climbing set. The last fifty meters before reaching the ground are occupied by a tangle of gigantic branches which have covered everything ( the first elven cities also ). Bathed in a permanent darkness, the air is not toxic anymore because it is located under the Uurwars zone. Bestiary: The wild khouli-khouli: That big bird related to the dodo is not as rare as the legends say, but because it is capable of perfectly finding its way through the foliage and because it is not affected by the toxic emnations of the Uurwars, it is rare to meet them on the surface. It is a vegetarian animal which if threatened defends itself with terrible beak strikes. Hipollules: These animals look like tiny sea horse with diaphanous wings.They have the amazing abilitiy to spontaneously reproduce short musical tunes.No need to say that they are the joy of the kids. Taurinangwa: Wrongly named also forest shark by the first human who saw one of them, it is affiliated with the lizard, but the bony crest behind its head and which sometimes emerges from the foliage gave it the name of forest shark.3 to 9 feet long, it has four palmed and clawed legs and an impressing set of teeth. It easily finds its way into the foliage and swims in it. Its powerful muscles allow the biggest of them to jump from one trunk to the other.It is the predator of this ecosystem where it hunts in packs the wild khouli-khouli.However it is so afraid by the light that it seldom comes to the surface. His biorythm seems however to be diurnal, a fact sages think is related to its affinity with Uurwar which gaz production diminishes at night.That hypothesis was confirmed by the death of living specimens when exposed for a few minutes to a healthy atmosphere. Flying Jellyfish. Like big transluscent bags filled with hot air, they are related to their aquatic cousins.Tossed by the air currents at the tops of the trees, they let their poisonous tentacles hanging to capture colibris, rodents and other small creatures. Then they digest them slowly. If multiple precautions are taken , it is possible to capture them and to devitalize them (just like a taxidermist does) to use only their external enveloppe. Their slough serves in the making of Gondolfi�res.Of course it is more easily said than done and capturing and preparing those rare creatures with fairylike colors is very difficult. The choice of the preservative ointment is a crucial step for the longevity of the balloon. Doudilain: They first arrived in Ebony-Port a century ago in the luggage of a traveler.Those first two doudilains were set free by the death of their owner.Since then they have abundantly proliferated and the elves have tamed some of them, before sending them toards the other Ports of the valley. The absence of dogs and cats is not a sufficient reason to explain the infatuation for this animal, it is just a very affectionnate animal. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:42:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: a new section in the map area: the maps of the cities!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit check my map section (bottom of the page to see the maps of the cities of mystara. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:38:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Feebleminded Mortal Identities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since immortals can assume several mortal ID at a time, they just need to send one to save the feebleminded one or they can send a faithful follower to dissipate the effect.There is no way their immortal self is somewhat affected by the feeblemind spell. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:50:53 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul Benfield Subject: Re: Mystara Elven Faiths & Avatars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm currently building a web page based on 2E AD&D material for Mystara. One of the first sections I have been working on are details for specialist priests of Mystaran Immortals from my campaign. It's not quite ready for the web yet as I've a few Immortals to go. I'll be posting it this weekend hopefully. I can't promise if it'll be up to the F&A standard as I don't have that tome to go on. Cheers Paul Benfield > However, I am looking for Mystara Immortals in 2ndEd Faiths & Avatars > format; seen some well done conversions in a Mystara Immortals project for > example (can't remember the URL), but work so far has been limited to a > small few. Most of the stuff I have able to find so far seems no newer than > '96-97. I'll make sure I include these :)) > Rafiel, patron of the Shadow Elves > Atzanteotl/Aztiann > Eryindul (sp) > Ilsundal > Calitha Starbrow > Milan/Mealinden Starwatcher > Ordana > Zirchev ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:02:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:15:55 +0100, Caroletti wrote: < This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example of how many votes I need!!! George Hrabovsky John Walter Biles Leroy Van Camp III Marco Dalmonte Marco Giulio Fossati Michael III Mysteria Patrick Sullivan Peter Balazs and many many many more VOTE!!!!>> Hey, why did u pick us 8 out of 150 people who still have to vote? This makes us the black sheeps of the list, so to speak.. how did u discover we're the heads of the anti-poll movement? Somebody must have betrayed.... damn! :) Anyway, my preference goes to....: Darokin : borders every major nation of the KW, has almost all of the races and cultures living there and is not far from the others, so it's a damn good choice to campaign. Minor Negative point: maybe a bit too civilized to stage medieval epic. ex-aequo with: Norwold : savage, undetailed and big enough to accomodate every DM's need and whim. It can be used as the stage of mass destructions, upheavals and immortal battles without really affecting too much the KW's stability. Minor negative point: sometimes it can prove a wee bit too far off, especially if you haven't got teleport magic or flying devices. Special mention to: Karameikos : the place where everything started, still holds plenty of unexplored areas, it has got a rich background and an interesting history and has the flavor for a true medieval sword&sorcery setting. Ylaruam : it's just a great esotic setting with a detailed background, mysterious history and is filled with adventure opportunities of every kind. satisfied? :) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gilda.it/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:31:17 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hey, why did u pick us 8 out of 150 people who still have to vote? This > makes us the black sheeps of the list, so to speak.. > Hmpf. That's a badge I would think folks would wear with pride. I'm just sorry I didn't make the list (I was one of the poor suckers who voted, forgetting one of my favorite quotes: "why help pick the monkey when you can own the organ grinder".) www.theonion.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:36:15 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: katri w Subject: Re: Immortal equivalences (was The Immortal Iliric/Negyavim) Content-Type: text/plain Gretings, Just browsed through the messages in list and noticed the speculations about the norse gods... > Another possibility to consider is the possible validity of the > identifications > that the ancient Romans made between their own gods and those of their > Norse/Germanic foes. Going strictly by the gods who were assigned > particular days of the week, we get the following: this is interesting, good and even logical idea and just to make things more complicated i'll make few comments: > Tyr (Ilsundal?) = Mars = Ares > Woden/Odin = Mercury = Hermes = Thoth > Thor = Jove/Jupiter = Zeus Odin, as a father of gods, the god of victory and being kind of persofinication of universe is more close to be equivalent to Juppiter/Zeus... (and Odin and Zeus were both quite incurable (womanizers) Although Odin has some resemblence with Mercury too, they both introduced alphabets (or runes in Odin's case) to mortals. Thor has also certain similarities with both Jupiter and Mercury! Based on my little knowledge about northern gods, i would switch places btw Odin and Thor. But who am I to disagree with ancient Germans who gave the name of Thor to Jove's day. > Frigg (or Freya?) = Venus = Aphrodite (Valerias?) Frigga is defenately more like Juno; patroness of marriage, motherly love etc, persofinication of athmosphere. She (as Juno) represented also beauty. Freya as the goddes of youth, love and beauty, who sprang from the sea has close resemblence to Venus. Fredag (Friday) is named after Freya. Kind of problematic to find clear equivalents indeed... -- KATRI "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be: but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." (Tweedledee) ______________________________________________________ Articista my�s verkkosanakirja. Tilaa k�ytt��si nyt! http://www.artic.net/ads/go.cgi?go=157&r=email ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:41:30 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: katri w Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed Content-Type: text/plain > < Votes 42 of 196 > > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example of > how many votes I need!!! oh...and my favourite area is Northern Reaches (all 3 nations) -- KATRI "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be: but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." (Tweedledee) ______________________________________________________ Yll�t� yst�v�si -l�het� Articin postikortti! http://www.artic.net/ads/go.cgi?go=130&r=email ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:08:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Poll Results... Buy the Vote 2000! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come on people, vote for Darokin! This message mainly because I had to use that subject line :) Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 05:26:29 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > AHHHHHHH i broke another rule! damn those rules, damn them damn them! I'm > quite stupid apparently and am unsure how scanning a picture is a copyright > violation? Because reproducing a copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright holder (except, in some cases, for personal use) is violation of copyright. Its the law. Asking people to copy an image for you, one you do not already legitimitely own, is asking people to break the copyright laws. Its just like asking people to copy music for you, or give you a copy of commerical software. And thus it is not allowed on the list. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:23:49 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh crap, i burn cd's of both music and software, no wonder i didn't stop to think this was wrong. Oh well, it IS for personal use, i just want to put the purty picture on a character sheet . . . my mother is a lawyer, i'll ask her. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:55:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: Immortal Gods In-Reply-To: Caroletti 's message of Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:30:39 +0100 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Trust the Dungeon Master, the Dungeon Master is your friend. Only a Collectivist Inheritor Traitor would think otherwise. All Collectivist Inheritor Traitors should report for +5 arrow penetration testing immediately. The Dungeon Master says, "It's Specularum, citizen." CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:29:22 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Calengaer, the green ocean!!! In-Reply-To: <38A1D2F7.379CA2BD@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, thibault sarlat wrote: > Hello everyone.As you all know my mother tongue is not english and i am > not a professionnal translator.So please forgive me for all the mistakes Your English is still better than my German or Spanish, so don't feel bad. I have to struggle to read Asterix and Obelisk books. > their destructive folly.So we took shelter in a secluded valley to give Double space after every period. > BC3500: Elven clan Anuliinde leave Evergrun to settle near Blackmoor and > start to follow the way of technology and sciences. > BC3200: Belorfiwyn from Clan Anuliinde invents dirigible balloon. Under > his tutelage, the researches of the clan are oriented towards ecology, > renewable energy and so on... > BC3100: Anuliinde Clan clashes with the empire of Blackmoor for > ecological reasons. The retaliations are severe and decimate about 80% > of the clan population, which remains under the military juridiction of > the empire. > BC3005: The Anuliinde, led by Belorfiwyn, flee Blackmoor on 10 gigantic > dirigible balloons they have secretly built. That's a cool image. Of course, I like blimps despite my fear of heights. > BC500: The first Amber pearls are discovered. What is an Amber pearl? > Geography and ecology. > The land: > Located on the continent of Skothar, Calengaer, the Green Ocean, is a > fantastic forest at the north-eastern end of the valley.Its surface is of the valley? What valley? You mean at the north-eastern end of the continent? > Water: > Water is quite rare when you live at the top of the trees. Celithrarith > (Oak-Port) , located straight above lake Urcdacil , has an ingenious > mechanical system which uses the waterfalls of the Sir=FBth river to > convey water up to the city itself. Elvawen ( Maple-Port ) collect water > from the neighbouring mountains to the north and canalize it in wooden > pipes. Manereteriel ( Cedar-Port ), has a well inside its trunk coupled > with a wind-animated system to bring up water to the level of the > city.Ymlin ( Ebony-Port ), and Sebrildur ( Cestnuttree-Port ) , use the > same ways as the villages: they import water and gather it with > dew-sails.Little ponds exists in the hollow of the branches but their > location are jaleously kept secret. Shouldn't they have rain-catchers? Over all, I'd say that was a really cool idea. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas = =20 ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu =20 rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job=20 it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected=20 from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day,=20 but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product.=20 I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:39:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meltheim Shadowstalker meandered fecklessly... > oh crap, i burn cd's of both music and software, no wonder i didn't stop to > think this was wrong. That's fine. If you choose to break the law in this manner, it is not a concern of this list. It is when you use this list to solicit such illegal activities that it becomes my concern. > Oh well, it IS for personal use, i just want to put > the purty picture on a character sheet . . . my mother is a lawyer, i'll ask > her. It doesn't matter what you are using it for. If someone else has the picture and they make a copy of it and give it to you, they have broken the law. Even if you just plaster it on a character sheet. It is still copyright violation, and is still not allowed on this list. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:44:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti meandered fecklessly... > POLL RESULT: What is your preferred nation in Mystara? > Votes 42 of 196 > > Alfheim 5% > Alphatia 7% (1/3 Limn, 1/3 Blackheart) > Bellayne 2% > Darokin 11% > Shires 1% > Glantri 20% > Hule 5% > Karameikos 16% > Nithia 2% > Northern Reaches 1% > Norwold 2% > Rockhome 2% > Serraine 1% > Thyatis 12% > Wendar 8% > Ylaruam 5% > Don't know 2% > > This is a short list of persons that has not voted yet...just an example > of > how many votes I need!!! > > Leroy Van Camp III Since no one else at all voted for what I would I voted for, I decided to hold my vote... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:09:15 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's for educational purposes! It's for educational purposes. My mom the lawyer says that it's ok if it's for educational purposes! Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:09:58 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Calengaer, the green ocean!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Hello everyone.As you all know my mother tongue is not english and i am > not a professionnal translator. > That's ok. No one's ever been able to figure out what my mother tongue is, though I operate under the delusion that it's English 8-). > > Calengaer, the green ocean. > > History: > As the elves know it: > BC3100: Anuliinde Clan clashes with the empire of Blackmoor for > I'm curious: was Blackmoor an Empire? It's minor, but it just struck me; "Blackmoor" seems to have become the name for the "Blackmoor-Era Civilization", but I wonder what sort of polity (or polities) it was - it seems (from what we know) that the elves of the south (in Davania) had their own countries, though some (if not many) of them assimilated the use of Blackmoor type technologies. Thonia also seems to have continued to exist. Blackmoor early on was a Kingdom (and a fringe Kingdom at that). This musing doesn't really have much to do with Calengaer itself, it just kind of came to mind when I read the above. > BC2898: Using the agricultural methods and the technics from the > dirigibles, life grows and a first city is built around Filmaelle. It is > named Ymlyn (Ebony) after the first tree to be planted (which seed came > from Evergrun). > That's pretty cool 8-) > BC2886: Belorfiwyn creates the Marwar, a parasitic fungus which > increases both the culture's resistance to the climate and the > production. > The production? I'm confused here: the production of what? > BC550: A Nithian expeditionnary force takes control of the valley. > Nithian priests and magicians discover the remains of technology used in > the dirigibles.They conduct experiments on the five dirigibles. > Hmmn. . .this part seems incongruous, though. IMO, the Nithians wouldn't have been this far East. At the time the Alphatians were sort of "in the way", the Nithian eastward expansion seems to have reached only so far as the Isle of Dawn. It might be better to replace the Nithians with some other interloper/invader (Minean colonists from the south? Or hadn't they reached Skothar yet?) - some folk indigeonis to Skothar might be cooler. > AC150 Eoradrienduil now settled in Celithrarith builds the first > gondolfi�re, first ship to really float on the Calengaer > IIRC someone mentioned that Calengaer was located in the forests near or in Esterhold. If that's true, then what was their reaction when the Alphatians came? Did they develop relations with them, or keep themselves hidden? If the latter, then how was that done? What about contact with the local Jennite tribes - what is/were their relationships with them like, or did they keep themselves secret from them as well? Just some q's 8-) > > Geography and ecology. > The land: > Located on the continent of Skothar, Calengaer, the Green Ocean, is a > fantastic forest at the north-eastern end of the valley. > Where is this valley located? > Fire: > As a consequence of the mutation of the trees, they are now fireproof. > the only fuel available are some parasitic mushrooms , and the guano > from the khouli-khouli, but the latter emits unfortunately a foul and > unpleasant odor. > Yuck 8-) > Doudilain: > They first arrived in Ebony-Port a century ago in the luggage of a > traveler.Those first two doudilains were set free by the death of their > owner.Since then they have abundantly proliferated and the elves have > Sounds like Tribbles almost. 8-)~ Really cool overall. Would be nice to see more 8-). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:11:15 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Since no one else at all voted for what I would I voted for, I > decided to hold my vote... > Bah! Who cares if others don't vote for the nation you prefer. That might only indicate how benighted the rest of us are. No need to be a bandwagoneer, vote for your favorite. Who cares if no one else has the vision and sense to see the true greatness of {YOUR NATION HERE}. That goes for the rest of you non-voting masses, too: if you're holding back because no one else has spoken up on behalf of your favorite, then shame on you for needing a pack to follow. Be the shepherd, not the sheep! (Or at least if you're not going to vote, do it for a good reason - "Why help pick the monkey when you can own the organ grinder" is one). I'd have voted for Slobbovia, but it's not "Mystaran" per se, since it isn't on Mystara. (Anyhow, I just like it because of the cachet. . .and I love my Mongreef *_+.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:14:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation(was Thatone picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It's for educational purposes! It's for educational purposes. My mom the > lawyer says that it's ok if it's for educational purposes! > I'm sorry for the following, but it's become time to say it: Settle down, Bevis. 8-)~ "I am the great Cornholio. I need TP. TP for my bunghole. My people, they have no bungholes." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Calengaer, the green ocean!!! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Once again I surface (no pun intended while talking about an ocean, har-har.) > > > > > Hello everyone.As you all know my mother tongue is not english and i am > > not a professionnal translator. > > > That's ok. No one's ever been able to figure out what my mother tongue is, > though I operate under the delusion that it's English 8-). > Mystarans can't be choosers. Or is that beggars? Or is one a synonym of the other? > > > > Calengaer, the green ocean. > > I like the idea. Too bad that this turned out to be only a PROVERBIAL ocean. I was looking forward to a sort of Undersea version of the Savage Coast. > > History: > > As the elves know it: > > BC3100: Anuliinde Clan clashes with the empire of Blackmoor for > > No, it was a Kingdom. Under King Uther, Once And Always. The empire was called Thonia, and it was from Thonia that Blackmoor broke in the early days of Uther's rise to power. > I'm curious: was Blackmoor an Empire? It's minor, but it just struck me; > "Blackmoor" seems to have become the name for the "Blackmoor-Era > Civilization", but I wonder what sort of polity (or polities) it was - it > seems (from what we know) that the elves of the south (in Davania) had > their own countries, though some (if not many) of them assimilated the use > of Blackmoor type technologies. Thonia also seems to have continued to See Hollow World Boxed Set, re: Blacklore Elves. > exist. Blackmoor early on was a Kingdom (and a fringe Kingdom at that). > This musing doesn't really have much to do with Calengaer itself, it just > kind of came to mind when I read the above. > I love these ideas of late about a last vestige of Thonia. Neat idea. If I ever resurrect the Blackmoor Project then perhaps that will have to be included. > > BC2898: Using the agricultural methods and the technics from the > > dirigibles, life grows and a first city is built around Filmaelle. It is > > named Ymlyn (Ebony) after the first tree to be planted (which seed came > > from Evergrun). > > > That's pretty cool 8-) > I, too give that a "right on, brother." > > BC2886: Belorfiwyn creates the Marwar, a parasitic fungus which > > increases both the culture's resistance to the climate and the > > production. > > > The production? I'm confused here: the production of what? > Um... sounds a wee bit like the Spell Of Protection. Methinks that the Spell Of Protection is enough, and that more starts to lock pieces of Mystara into place and make it too difficult to play in as an RPG environment. > > BC550: A Nithian expeditionnary force takes control of the valley. > > Nithian priests and magicians discover the remains of technology used in > > the dirigibles.They conduct experiments on the five dirigibles. > > I like this, except that the geography is way off on this one. I have an extremely difficult time imagining a Nithian expeditionary force getting that far into Skothar. > Hmmn. . .this part seems incongruous, though. IMO, the Nithians wouldn't > have been this far East. At the time the Alphatians were sort of "in the > way", the Nithian eastward expansion seems to have reached only so far as > the Isle of Dawn. It might be better to replace the Nithians with some Yeah... that, too. > other interloper/invader (Minean colonists from the south? Or hadn't they > reached Skothar yet?) - some folk indigeonis to Skothar might be cooler. > > > AC150 Eoradrienduil now settled in Celithrarith builds the first > > gondolfi�re, first ship to really float on the Calengaer > > > IIRC someone mentioned that Calengaer was located in the forests near or in > Esterhold. If that's true, then what was their reaction when the Alphatians > came? Did they develop relations with them, or keep themselves hidden? If > the latter, then how was that done? What about contact with the local > Jennite tribes - what is/were their relationships with them like, or did > they keep themselves secret from them as well? Just some q's 8-) > > > > Geography and ecology. > > The land: > > Located on the continent of Skothar, Calengaer, the Green Ocean, is a > > fantastic forest at the north-eastern end of the valley. > > > Where is this valley located? > > > Fire: > > As a consequence of the mutation of the trees, they are now fireproof. > > the only fuel available are some parasitic mushrooms , and the guano > > from the khouli-khouli, but the latter emits unfortunately a foul and > > unpleasant odor. > > > Yuck 8-) > > > Doudilain: > > They first arrived in Ebony-Port a century ago in the luggage of a > > traveler.Those first two doudilains were set free by the death of their > > owner.Since then they have abundantly proliferated and the elves have > > > Sounds like Tribbles almost. 8-)~ I pity the fool who becomes enamored with the Tribbles. > > Really cool overall. Would be nice to see more 8-). > I, too would like to see more. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:16:15 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-09 11:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << But if you have any ideas regarding a power that might pose such a threat, by all means post them. Then things will go from vague speculation to something tangible that can be discussed. 8-) >> To do that we would have to develop Skothar in quite a bit more detail than has yet been done. However, it does seem unlikely that the Thonians or the Jennites would have the seapower needed to invade Bellissaria. The Minaeans would, if they were properly motivated to put aside their internal differences and unite against a common foe, and I would suggest that on the few occasions that they did so the Alphatians did in fact divert their attention eastward and pay less attention to events in the west. But the Tanagoro are known to be great seafarers, as they managed to found colonies on the Pearl Islands, Yavdlom, the Arm of the Immortals, and two different parts of Davania. With the vast distances that they are capable of traveling, they may have already circumnavigated the globe. Furthermore, if we accept the alliances given in WotI as correct, then Korotiku (their patron Immortal and supposedly an ally of Rad) should have stirred them up to attack Bellissaria at some point after the Alphatians reached the Isle of Dawn. Such an attack would have posed little real danger to the Tanagoro people, as most of them live in places that are well out of Alphatia's reach -- at worst the ships and troops used in that invasion would be wiped out. The only thing that should prevent that plan from being carried out would be strong pro-Alphatian sympathies among the Minaeans -- extremely unlikely at most times but virtually certain given the course of events in WotI. So I would deduce that the Immortal patron of the Minaeans (Razud?) sided with Alphatia and went so far as to urge many of their states to sign treaties of alliance with Alphatia. The Tanagoro, meanwhile, were whipped up by Korotiku into planning a crusade against the "evil Alphatian sorcerors", but were stymied by these unexpected alliances -- under any other circumstances they would have been able to sail west to the Minaean Coast and perhaps recruit a few allies when they told the Minaeans of their plans to attack Alphatia. But with no clear way to reach Alphatia, the anti-Alphatian frenzy eventually died down with nothing being done about it. Of course any sort of large scale political unity among the Tanagoro does seem unlikely, given that their geography would set up some obvious boundaries that would be difficult to cross in force. However, any leader who manages to unite a significant fraction of the Tanagoro people under his rule would be a force to be reckoned with. But against whom might that force be used? It seems unlikely that they would engage in major conflicts with any of their nearest neighbors, as most of them seem to lack the power or the ambition to be a serious threat to them. And with all of the empty lands within reach of their great merchant fleets, they would have little reason to launch unprovoked wars of aggression. But which nations would provoke the Tanagoro? The most likely possibilities would seem to be the Minaeans and the Alphatians. Certainly Minaean pirates would have no qualms about sacking the westernmost coastal Tanagoro cities and selling their citizens into slavery (mostly to Alphatia). The Alphatians, if they ever bothered to travel that far, would probably subject them to similar abuse. Eventually a charismatic leader would see these attackers as a foe to unite his people against, and he would gather together an enormous fleet to attack the Minaeans, whom they would easily overwhelm. The Minaeans, eager to shift Tanagoro wrath elsewhere, would point out that most of the captives they took were sold as slaves to Alphatia and offer to help them attack that empire (preferably at a time when that empire was embroiled in some dispute with Thyatis). Of course, no such invasion was apparently ever carried out prior to WotI -- but if the Tanagoro managed to organize such an expedition afterwards, NACE would be in real trouble. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:16:17 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara Humanoid Faiths & Avatars] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-09 12:09:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << Actually, isn't Jammudaru "Vaprak"? I seem to recall that the entry for Jammudaru in Gaz10 mentions that he is also known as Vaprak. I don't believe tht Yagrai has any AD&D equivalent. >> You are correct -- that is what I get for trying to do those identifications from memory. I am actually amazed at how many I got right. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:19:57 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed In-Reply-To: <200002100614.BAA06439@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:11 AM 2/10/00 -0600, James Ruhland wrote: >> >> Since no one else at all voted for what I would I voted for, I >> decided to hold my vote... >> >Bah! Who cares if others don't vote for the nation you prefer. That might >only indicate how benighted the rest of us are. No need to be a >bandwagoneer, vote for your favorite. Who cares if no one else has the >vision and sense to see the true greatness of {YOUR NATION HERE}. That goes >for the rest of you non-voting masses, too: if you're holding back because >no one else has spoken up on behalf of your favorite, then shame on you for >needing a pack to follow. Be the shepherd, not the sheep! (Or at least if >you're not going to vote, do it for a good reason - "Why help pick the >monkey when you can own the organ grinder" is one). What he said! I can't believe none of the rest of you voted for Blackheart! Darn you all!!! :) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:25:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update: Another New Map, Rakasta comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Okay, I am definitely getting faster at this. The Animal Kingdoms (Renardy and Bellayne, cultures of Lupins and Rakasta respectively) are finished and up on my site. An interesting side-note is the change of some of the names of towns and dominions in Bellayne, "Pawchester" became "Pachester", "Furfield" became "Farfield", "Wiskerton" became "Wickerton"... Apparently someone decided during Red Steel's design that the latter names were too 'silly'... I can sympathize on this, it's a easy trip to silliness but a hard ride back, but I kind of liked the original names. On another tack, the addition of oriental style weapons and cultural ideals to Bellayne was another contrast between the Princess Ark article and the Red Steel suppliments. I believe Bruce Heard commented in an earlier mail that the lead designer on the project liked the oriental scheme and incorporated it against Bruce's wishes. Anyway, my personal take on it is that it's not too bad, and it can be explained thus: Centuries ago, after Bellayne's founding, a number of ronin samurai from Myoshima came to Bellayne to settle down. Since they didn't fit into the city cultures they took up a nomadic existence and were adopted by the tribal rakasta still residing on the steppes and in the Forest Marches. Similar to how the Renardois adopted the Glantrian Lupin's styles and language, the nomadic rakasta adopted the Myoshiman ways until they became one distinctive group after many years. The ronin also introduced advanced sword manufacturing and several new weapons to the Savage Coast which spread through the Tortles of Dunwick everywhere. Anyway, enough about that. The next map I have in mind is Herath, which is a large enough nation to get it's own map on it's own. (I'm trying to keep them small so they are easier to manage.) I may take some time on this one, tracing rivers tends to mean you draw the rest of the maps in the process. IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:27:33 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Site Update: Forgot URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Silly me, forgot my URL. :) IronWolf http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:52:44 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Meltheim's List o' Faith's and Avatars (LONG!!!!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Garl Glittergold (Temporal of Matter) Alignment: CG Sex: Male Race: Dwarf (Rockhome) Ahh, no. He has to be a Kogolotr dwarf as Rockhomes where not yet in existance. Just a nitpick, great work. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:56:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: cradle of all D&D civilization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed No, not Lake Geneva, WI If anyone can recall when they were playing basic, the default town of residence was known as the Threshold- where our 1st level pc hung out and got his provisions and training. Correct me if I am wrong, but that town was within the then Grand Duchy of Karameikos (Hail Duke Stefan!) Where is the most amount of printed published info on the Threshold? Does anybody have city stats (population, industries, guilds, major players, etc.) or town maps on-line? Or even on-line maps of the where the Threshold lays in relation to all the other Known World locales? -obb ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:02:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: nostalgia cont. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hail When I was campaigning in my younger days, one of the greater and most feared unseen threats was an entity known as the Black Eagle Barony. This evil baron, along with his lycanthrope allies at Wereskalot were the thorn in Duke Stefan's backside. Does anyone have NPC & personality stats on Herr Baron von Hendriks? Info or maps of the then Fort Doom, Wereskalot and the rest of the Barony? Current official or non-official info (whatever year it is now, 1017?) on the state of affairs of that region and whereabouts of the Baron (if alive) or his progeny? -o ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:25:00 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland meandered fecklessly... > > Since no one else at all voted for what I would I voted for, I > > decided to hold my vote... > > > Bah! Who cares if others don't vote for the nation you prefer. That might > only indicate how benighted the rest of us are. Nah, I am too apathetic to be a visionary. Besides, I am an American. Looking at the numbers for poll turnouts here in America should show how hard it is to get us to vote on anything. If you can't get me to vote on the people who determine how much I have to shell out in taxes, what makes you think I am going to vote for my favorite Mystara nation? Insert smileys as required... Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:28:05 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's for educational purposes! It's for educational purposes. My mom the > lawyer says that it's ok if it's for educational purposes! Ummm... yeah... whatever excuses you make are irrelevant. Here is the short and simple: Don't do it again. And unles you have any honest and essential questions, end the thread. Now. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:14:15 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) In-Reply-To: Leroy Van Camp III 's message of Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:39:38 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sorry to butt in ADMIN but I remember reading a letter in the letters section of Dragon Magazine a few years back. A player asked if he could copy an article for a friend who did not have that specific copy. TSR replied and said they had no problem with that as long as no profit was made, ie no photocopying the Entire Dragon #1 and selling it. Since Meltheim only wants one picture and not the whole book/magazine/module etc I think similar logic should apply. Now if someone scanned the entirety of GAZ 3 and put it online I'd certainly agree with you. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:22:59 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > To do that we would have to develop Skothar in quite a bit more detail than > has yet been done. > Well, if it'd spur us to further bouts of creativity, it'd be worth it 8-). > Minaeans would, if they were properly motivated to put aside their internal > differences and unite against a common foe, and I would suggest that on > the few occasions that they did so the Alphatians did in fact divert their > attention eastward and pay less attention to events in the west. > The Minaeans *might* - looking at the best map of the area we have available (the AC 1012 "New Alphatian Region" map), they have two noteworthy settlements on the coast (Minaea itself and Tresa) - we can probably safely conclude that there are other (if perhaps smaller) coastal settlements as well. But they're divided, normally. Usually to get such folks such as that to "put aside their internal differences and unite against a common foe," they either have to be directly threatened by that foe (an invasion iminent), or compelled by a greater & ambitious power (Since the Minaeans are MGreeks, think the comparison between the leagues formed against Persia when it invaded, and the leagues organized by Phillip & Alexander. The former fell apart in internal squabbling as soon as the threat of conquest was past. We'd have to speculate on a "MMacedonia" to whip 'em into line for a more agressive strategy, since we don't know of any existing at the moment). With a population of about 500,000 in Minaea as a whole, the various coastal city-states probably can field a fleet of, perhaps, 5,000 in peacetime (this would be a high portion of their "standing forces"). Double that in wartime as a guess (using ships that either exist or are pressed into service for such a purpose) - any more would likely take a considerable time to mobilize because additional ships would probably have to be built. In any case, Bellissaria is far from defenseles. Spearpoint, a dedicated military/naval base (more on it later) lays near the coast of Mineae, effectively bifurcating it (ships from southern Minaea would have to pass Spearpoint, through a narrow channel, to join up with ships from the western coast. Losses would be significant, as the individual fleets could be defeated in detail). This wouldn't require Alphatia to divert any forces, unless they had already stripped Spearpoint of ships (which would mean that the premise of this thread is way off - if Alphatia has to strip places like Spearpoint of ships in order to fight Thyatis, then clearly Thyatis is an equivilent opponent. In fact, I would venture so far to say that even though Alphatia might not usually strip Spearpoint of ships, that implies they guard their flank but not that dispatching Thyatis isn't something they normally can't achieve - Spearpoint has a fair portion of Alphatia's standing forces, but not a lot, and not much of their mobilization forces). In wartime things become even more difficult for a potential Minaean invader, because the Alphatians on Bellissaria will have mustered up their reserves. Likely only a fraction of these Bellissarians would be dispatched to the Thyatian front (why? because transporting them would be something of a bother, and it's easier to maintain the logistical lines from the continent itself). Minaea is noted as a piratical threat to Alphatian trade, but there is no extant information that suggests that they have been a threat to conquer Bellissaria, even though (IMO) there were probably Minaean/Milenian colonies on Bellissaria when the Alphatians arrived & pushed them out (others have differing opinions, but I find it odd that Milenian colonists would completely bypass Bellissaria. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose). Could it happen? It's a possibility, but IMO not a strong one. > But the Tanagoro are known to be great seafarers, as they managed > to found colonies on the Pearl Islands, > The Tanagoro are an excellent seafaring colonizing people, yes. This might say little about their unity (are the Tanagoro one nation, or fractured like the Minaeans?) and it says less about their warships/ability to move troops in invasion fleets) - the Micronesians, upon which this aspect of the Tanagoro is losely based, were also great seafarers who managed to spread throughout the Pacific, but they didn't use anything we'd classify as a Galleon (Large Sailing Ship) or Caravel (Small Sailing Ship) or War Galley. The Tanagoro of AC 1000+ possibly have ships of such types, I suppose we can assume they do. The question then becomes: are they a unitary & expansionistic (militarily agressive sort) power? I note that the Tanagoro are at least as far from Bellissaria as Darokin is from the Isle of Dawn (in fact, the Tanagoro might be twice as far from Bellissaria as Darokin is from the Isle of Dawn) - Darokin doesn't seem all that interested in the Isle of Dawn. Nor does Yvaldom. Even Hule has no immediate or even secondary interest in the Isle of Dawn (tertiary, perhaps) - The Master has closer fish to fry. Again we get to Spearpoint, which is positioned to intercept any invasion force from this direction. IMO, Spearpoint is largely a base for anti-piracy sweeps, but also a deterant against a potential invasion from the east. Does that mean an invasion such as that is possible, even likely, in a time when Alphatia is at war with a western power (Thyatis)? Possible. Likely? I doubt "likely". (Actually, IMO, I'd set asside the "defensive" claim somewhat - I see this as a "power projection" base, to mess with the Minaeans, "interveening" and the like, but that's a personal opinion). One could similarly posit other threats, but Cestia for example is divided into four Kingdoms - they're likely more interested in conquering each other than in engaging in distant wars of dubious outcome. > and troops used in that invasion would be wiped out. The only thing that > should prevent that plan from being carried out would be strong > pro-Alphatian sympathies among the Minaeans -- extremely unlikely at > most times but virtually certain given the course of events in WotI. > The Immortal patron of the Minaeans are less likely to be someone like Razud and more likely to be the typical trio of Traldaran Immortals (Halav, Petra, and whatsisname). They were indifferent to WotI, apparently. An outbreak of strong pro-Alphatian sympathies is about as believable as Karameikos joining NACE (Hmmmn. . .given the oddball way things have been scripted in the PWAs et al; ok, you have a point). Still, largely irrelivant since IMO it hardly matters one way or the other. Why? Because the main thing that prevents such a plan from being carried out isn't pro-Alphatian sympathies among the Minaeans, but distance, which induces ennui and indifference. Why bother going so far? In fact, IMO the only possible thing that would *spur* such a plan into being carried out would be an unusual alliance between the Minaeans and the Tanagoro, wherin they each decide to help themselves to Bellissaria. How likely is that? IMO, very unlikely, because agreement upon who gets what part of the spoils and whether "we" should "share" any of it with "them" would stand in the way of any practical effort. > > Of course any sort of large scale political unity among the Tanagoro does > seem unlikely, given that their geography would set up some obvious > boundaries that would be difficult to cross in force. > Yep. > However, any leader who manages to unite a significant fraction of the > Tanagoro people under his rule would be a force to be reckoned with. > This would be an exceptional, once-in-a-millenia circumstance, however. It would not explain the balance of power of the last thousand years. > But against whom might that force be used? It seems unlikely that they > would engage in major conflicts with any of their nearest neighbors, as > most of them seem to lack the power or the ambition to be a serious > threat to them. > First off: We don't know that, since none are known. Second off: Why would that seem unlikely? In any case, picking fights with "nearest neighbors" are the most common thing in history, not the least common (I can count the number of times the Germans went to war against the Chinese on one finger, but no one can count the number of times the French and the Germans have gone to war. Ditto France re. China, and France re. England). If the near-neighbors are weak and lacking in power, then one overuns them for precisely that reason (a bird in the hand, you know. I conquered them because they were there). If one's near neighbors are strong, then you fight them because they are a menace to your people. Traditional enimities are always among folks one has a lot of contact with, and rarely if ever between peoples that have little or no interaction (The next war India is likely to be embroiled in is unlikely to be with Chile, and very likely to be with Pakistan, and next in line is China). It's much harder to whip people into a war frenzy against people they don't have a natural hatred for. To have a natural hatred, you have to know them (all that rubbish during, for example, the Cold War about how we only hated each other because of a lack of understanding and if only we could have cultural exchange programs to get to know each other better then we'd become friends and peace would break out all over is rubbish. People don't dislike those they know nothing about. They hate their insufferable neighbors, the ones they know the most about). If Korotiku can't even keep the Pearl Islanders interested in fighting the Alphatians, I doubt he'd have gotten anywhere with respect to the Tanagoro. In any case, as I mentioned above, this would hardly explain the balance of power of the last thousand years. > > But which nations would provoke the Tanagoro? The most likely > possibilities would seem to be the Minaeans and the Alphatians. > I can see them disliking the Minaeans, since the Minaeans are their neighbors. However, in this case they might have a friendly view of the Alphatians: the Alphatians are not near neighbors, but they share a dislike of and conflict with the Minaeans. Thus far from being natural enemies, they are if anything natural allies. > > The Alphatians, if they ever bothered to travel that far, would probably > subject them to similar abuse. > See, the key phrase there is "if they ever bothered to travel that far" - IMO, if they had, then the Tanagoro would have experienced a period of subjegation by Alphatia (Alphatians, like other people, tend to go places to engage in conquest, at least per their History - not the "Revised" version, of course). I suppose that is possible, but we know nothing of it. We'd have to invent it. > Eventually a charismatic leader would > see these attackers as a foe to unite his people against, and he would > gather together an enormous fleet to attack the Minaeans, whom they > would easily overwhelm. > Again, a possibility, but one that would be an unusual situation, not something that would explain the balance of power over time. Are the Minaeans that easy to overwhelm? If they were, I doubt they'd still exist as an independent polity at all (being near some rather agressive peoples). But it could have happened, once or twice. > > Of course, no such invasion was apparently ever carried out prior to WotI > -- but if the Tanagoro managed to organize such an expedition afterwards, > NACE would be in real trouble. > Yes. That was another thing I planned to get to: based on the premise of this thread, that there exists some power to the east (in Skothar or in the islands to the south) that pose a threat to the security of Alphatia, thus explaining (or, rather, replacing/substituting) the ballance of power that we know of (the one between Alphatia & Thyatis), then now that Alphatia proper is "gone" the survivor polities would, as you said, be in real trouble: if there is an eastern polity that was a match for, and potential threat to, Alphatian control of this region, waiting to take advantage of any distraction or sign of weakness, over the last millennium if not longer, then they would likely have pounced at once when it became apparent that Alphatia was *gone* and these places (Bellissaria, Esterhold, etc) were relatively at their mercy. Did they suddenly decide that, well, now that they've thought about it, they don't really want Bellissaria after all? Or should there be an overwhelming invasion of NACE out of the east sometime very soon (one of the theories was that Torenal dealt this notional power a severe defeat just prior to WotI, insuring they would be unable to interfier. It's now been over a decade, time enough for this power to have recovered from such a setback - and they'd be a mite pissed off and provoked, and likely to seek solace in the phrase "payback is a bitch"). There are several points upon which I think no one can dispute (if they can, then I'm wrong in my conclusion which will follow): 1) In several of the PWAs etc, and in the synopsis of this or that place after the end of the war that appeared at the back of WotI, it is mentioned that the surviving Alphatian powers face potential absorbtion, or fear attack by, Thyatis. It is no where mentioned that they face or fear an attack from elsewhere. 2) In none of the PWAs, JA, or MAs has any such threat surfaced, either. IMO, it is at best "highly unlikely" that a power of an order of magnitide great enough to distract the Alphatia of AC 1000 from conquering Thyatis, and thus able to relatively easily dispatch the remnant of Alphatia (or "NACE") will appear. I would venture to say that "highly unlikely" is a mild assessment of the chance of that happening, "virtually impossible" or "snowballs chance in hell" that this will occur. 3) I seriously doubt that anyone with a strong interest in the Alphatian Sea region/"NACE" zone (the region of the former/"New, New Alphatian Empire" will create such an entity in their own campaigns and have it invade and dispatch NACE, conquer Bellissaria, or anything along those lines. The closest thing that *might* occur in such a campaign is the Jennites of Esterhold might get some help from a swarm of Jennites from the lands of Jen, and that area be lost to NACE/"New Alphatia", but as previous discussions tended to indicate, most people with a strong interest in the Alphatian region are unlikely to do even this. These three premises mean, in effect, that no such "Eastern Power," of an order of magnitude capable of threatening Alphatia with invasion and/or strong enough to conquer Bellissaria is going to surface in any campaign or document. Thus, since no such power is going to appear, no such power exists. QED. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:34:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Michael III Mysteria <--Hmm... just typical generic strange-named > Glantrian (as opposed to strange-named Alphatian, he has a surname). Dear Glantrians, Actually the House of Mysteria resides on Floating Ar, on the Islands of Mysteria Major, Minor and Asteria. And yes, we have a surname, but that is because of our extra-mystaran origins. But after all for instance Prince Haldemar of Haaken also more or less has a surname (also after a floating island). Besides the Flaem are also Alphatian, if somewhat degenerate. For instance the Vlaardoens are Flaem and have surnames, but oh well. So no, I didn't vote for Glantri, sorry. I voted for Alphatia, Floating Ar. Greetings, Michael III Mysteria "De Tempore ad Eternale" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:51:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, no: the Yannivey islands where Floating Ar now resides (bad > choice on their part, but I didn't make it) are further west, near Qeodhar > (well, actually not "near" Qeodhar, but about half way between Esterhold & > Qeodhar). Yeah, I noticed that on the DoE map right after I sent the post. > Thonia would include those marshes, but not be wholely contained within > them. In fact, judging by the map there isn't much marshland per se (it'd > all be permaice anyhow) - more steppelands than marshlands. The map of the World of Mystara (in Cyclopedia and Hollow World) shows a peninsula the size of Esterhold, designated Thonian Marshas, I think that should be large enough to situate a Thoanian Empire survivor state of the GRoF that could make think difficult for Alphatia locally. I think perhaps, with the continent gone, they should try their luck sometime against NACE, perhaps driving the Alphatians and Jennites on Esterhold into an alliance, I don't feel they should remain hostile forever after all. Greetings, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:07:21 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael III Mysteria wrote: > >Actually the House of Mysteria resides on Floating Ar, on the Islands of= >Mysteria Major, Minor and Asteria. And yes, we have a surname, but that = >is because of our extra-mystaran origins. But after all for instance >Prince= Haldemar of Haaken also more or less has a surname (also after a >floatin= g island). Besides the Flaem are also Alphatian, if somewhat >degenerate. F= or instance the Vlaardoens are Flaem and have surnames, but >oh well. So no,= I didn't vote for Glantri, sorry. I voted for Alphatia, >Floating Ar. Volospin Aendyr and his family also have surnames, and they are full-bloo= ded "pure" Alphatians. I think the practice of no surnames is merely a cultur= al one that is tied to specific nationalities of Alphatians, and not to the empire as a whole. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:09:40 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Calengaer, the green ocean!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reminds me a little of the Flash Gordon Movie from the eighties. You can put all kinds of nasty plant and fungus creatures in it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:17:49 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think that should be large enough to situate a Thoanian Empire survivor state of the > GRoF that could make think difficult for Alphatia locally. > Well, like I said in one of my earlier posts, folks are free to adjust the borders to fit within their needs (you yourself already have an Alphatian colony where I put Thonia's capital, so you can move it as needed to fit within your world). In mine, six of one, half a dozen of another, the size wasn't the significant determinant (as I indicated in my description, Thonia's borders are vague anyhow). I put stuff where I did because that was the best land available - cities sinking into marshland or built on permafrost are hard to feed. I also wanted them where they would have more or less regular contact with the Alphatians & the Jennites. At the latitude where the "Thonian Marshes" are, things are likely to be bitter cold (note that most of that penninsula is further north than even the northern tip of Norwold, a place that is presumed to be a Winter Wonderland). Of course, one could assume some sort of (perhaps magical) "microclimate" making the area somewhat livable - but there are already a number of those in the world, anymore and it will begin to seem almost "normal". Anyhow, like I said: don't modify your own Mystara if you've already got something there, just shift your version of Thonia to fit within the area you need it to. No biggie. > > I think perhaps, > with the continent gone, they should try their luck sometime against NACE, > perhaps driving the Alphatians and Jennites on Esterhold into an alliance, I > don't feel they should remain hostile forever after all. > Well, my personal opinion is that the Jennites on Esterhold are much more likely to ally with Thonia against the NACE/Alphatians. The Thonians didn't enslave the Jennites, and have fairly good relations with them (note: even the Thonians who conduct slave trade for Alphatia tended to capture people from the interior of Skothar, not direct their expeditions against the nearby Jennites). The Alphatians, on the other hand, are the invaders disliked by the Jennites, in Esterhold and elsewhere. This thus makes them, IMO, more likely to see the Thonians as potential friends than their ex- (and de-facto current) "masters". Once the Alphatian "invaders" are expelled from "our land" the Jennites might then become more willing to enter better relations with the Alphatians (it was over a millenium ago that the Alphatians enslaved the Thyatians, but there still seems to be some bitter feelings about that). But again, whatever works in one's own campaign - if in yours having the Thonians seem like a threat to both that brings the Jennites & Alphatians into bonds of friendship, forgetting and/or forgiving centuries of brutal opression and enslavement, then that's a way to go, and there are certainly interesting possibilities to explore. Facing a threat together might be a way to throw them together (though I still wonder if the Jennites wouldn't tend to see even an invading Thonia as a liberator of sorts, given what happened. But again, that's just my reading of the situation, based upon DotE et al. PWAs would imply otherwise, I suppose; but in the PWAs they didn't need a threat to suddenly find a previously unknown love for "massa" Vern, Broderick, and Haldemar, so you probably don't even need the threat of a Thonian invasion if you want to portray the Alphatians & Jennites as being fast friends.) It'd be an interesting war scenario, though, I suppose. If that works well in your campaign, then go for it. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:04:12 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: The Three- I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 997AC- summer The young huntress was ready as she will ever be. The waters aroun Kuir = were very warm this time of year and the waves fealt so pleasent as they = rose against her legs.=20 Tenaira's mother was Nuari, but she herself has never been to the Pearl = Islands. She gave a last look at her equptment and at her companions. To = her left, the dark haired Kerendan youth she loved so much, and to her = left- the blonde youth she had loved just the same. Was it so wrong to = love them both?=20 Tenaira chased away these thoughts from her mind. The hunt required her = full concentration. With a nod of his head, the Ostlander youth has = indicated it is time. Tenaria and her two lovers, her two soul mates, = drank the dark thick fluid from their sea shells.=20 The taste was like that of rotten fish, and Tenaria fealt her intestines = rising and wanted to vomit. Dario, the tanned mucsely Kerendan smiled to = her in understanding. He has drank this fluid before. With his smile = Tenaria lost all nausea and fear. The three slowly sank into the warm = waters, the stones tide to their feet preventing them from floating. = Slowly but surely, the dark skinned maiden sank into the waves. Sharp = shells and corals threatened to wound her unprotected feet. She held = firmly the sharp trident in her left hand. The creature she was looking = for was not easely defeated nor easely destroyed. She was as experienced = as a girl of that innocent age could be, but still fealt the weakening = fear of danger. Her companions gave her steangth and courage, and maybe = she has given them the same. Tenaria took the first breath of water in. = Salty warm water gushed into her mouth and straight into her lungs. The = shock of the water was painful and alarming. It took her a few seconds = to calm herself down.=20 Open your eyes Tenaria. The Velya are not easy hunting. ________ Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:37:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Giovanni Porpora Subject: R: Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > Volospin Aendyr and his family also have surnames, and they are full-blooded > "pure" Alphatians. I think the practice of no surnames is merely a cultural > one that is tied to specific nationalities of Alphatians, and not to the > empire as a whole. Working with Harri Maki on Glantrian History, I "discovered" the first Alphatian who started using his surname Aendyr was Vitalin after the Light of Rad. His parents didn't before. Bye Giovanni ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:47:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] R: Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Poll Results...many votes needed]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Giovanni Porpora wrote: > >Working with Harri Maki on Glantrian History, I "discovered" the first >Alphatian who started using his surname Aendyr was Vitalin after the >Li= ght of Rad. His parents didn't before. Even if we assume that to be the case, there nonetheless remains preceden= t for the Alphatian surname "policy" being a local (or probably not even that widespread) phenomenon as opposed to a national one. There is Ashari Sunl= il, for example- she of "Voyage of the Princess Ark" fame. = Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:31:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: cradle of all D&D civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Threshold is exhaustively described in Karameikos, Kingdom of Adventure > Does anybody have city stats (population, industries, guilds, major > players, etc.) or town maps on-line? Or even on-line maps of the where the > Threshold lays in relation to all the other Known World locales? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:34:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: nostalgia cont. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hail > > When I was campaigning in my younger days, one of the greater and most > feared unseen threats was an entity known as the Black Eagle Barony. This > evil baron, along with his lycanthrope allies at Wereskalot were the thorn > in Duke Stefan's backside. > > Does anyone have NPC & personality stats on Herr Baron von Hendriks? > > Info or maps of the then Fort Doom, Wereskalot and the rest of the Barony? > > Current official or non-official info (whatever year it is now, 1017?) on > the state of affairs of that region and whereabouts of the Baron (if alive) > or his progeny? As with Threshold, Baron von Hendriks is described in Karameikos, Kingdom of Adventure. Fort Doom en the rest of the Barony, before being invaded by the Five Shires, can be found in GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (which I don't own). Von Hendriks is currently somewhere in Glantri as far as I've read (I've read the first three months of the 1016 AC Alamanac) so check there. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:40:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Immortal equivalences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit katri w wrote: > > Odin, as a father of gods, the god of victory and being kind of > persofinication of universe is more close to be equivalent to > Juppiter/Zeus... (and Odin and Zeus were both quite incurable > (womanizers) > Although Odin has some resemblence with Mercury too, they both > introduced alphabets (or runes in Odin's case) to mortals. > Thor has also certain similarities with both Jupiter and Mercury! > Based on my little knowledge about northern gods, i would switch places > btw Odin and Thor. But who am I to disagree with ancient Germans who > gave the name of Thor to Jove's day. > This difficulty in the identification of Norse gods with Olympians is mostly due to the changes that the latter underwent during the ages. Originally, Thor should have been the equivalent of Herakles, while Zeus/Jupiter was akin to both Odin and Tyr (Mars was originally very different from Tyr, but later he got some of Tyr's charcteristics when the original equivalents of both gods were merged into Jupiter). The identification of Odin with Mercury passed probably through their Celtic equivalent, Lleug. As to a better identification with Roman characters, I think the sounder equivalence is: Odin = Horatius Cocles Tyr = Mucius Scaevola as they both reflect the gods' physical traits. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:50:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the latitude where the "Thonian Marshes" are, things are likely to be > bitter cold (note that most of that penninsula is further north than even > the northern tip of Norwold, a place that is presumed to be a Winter > Wonderland). Of course, one could assume some sort of (perhaps magical) > "microclimate" making the area somewhat livable - but there are already a > number of those in the world, anymore and it will begin to seem almost > "normal". Well...I understood the Thonians were a womewhat asiatic people. The mongols, yakkuts and many other peoples in that region of the world do live in such regions and I think it would distinguish them culturally from the rest of Mystara. > Well, my personal opinion is that the Jennites on Esterhold are much more > likely to ally with Thonia against the NACE/Alphatians. The Thonians didn't > enslave the Jennites, and have fairly good relations with them (note: even > the Thonians who conduct slave trade for Alphatia tended to capture people > from the interior of Skothar, not direct their expeditions against the > nearby Jennites). The Alphatians, on the other hand, are the invaders > disliked by the Jennites, in Esterhold and elsewhere. This thus makes them, > IMO, more likely to see the Thonians as potential friends than their ex- > (and de-facto current) "masters". Once the Alphatian "invaders" are > expelled from "our land" the Jennites might then become more willing to > enter better relations with the Alphatians (it was over a millenium ago > that the Alphatians enslaved the Thyatians, but there still seems to be > some bitter feelings about that). I think this would work well too. Perhaps the Thonians, once they have bolted the Alphatians up in their coastal cities and inland forts, would be able to threaten the Yannivey Islands and northern Bellissaria, forcing NACE to turn their attention to such a threat. I DO feel that if Thonia were to be added to the MML campaign world, they SHOULD see the disappearance of Alphatia proper as an opportunity to strike at the weakened Alphatians. All in all, I think the Thonia would be a great new mover and shaker in the eastern rim of the Known World, since the technically backward Jennites in themselves could (or more properly SHOULD to remain believable as they are) never become a true threat to the Alphatians. I strongly caution against mirroring the Neathar/Neatharum situation in Esterhold/Steppes of Jen. > But again, whatever works in one's own campaign - if in yours having the > Thonians seem like a threat to both that brings the Jennites & Alphatians > into bonds of friendship, forgetting and/or forgiving centuries of brutal > opression and enslavement, then that's a way to go, and there are certainly > interesting possibilities to explore. Facing a threat together might be a > way to throw them together (though I still wonder if the Jennites wouldn't > tend to see even an invading Thonia as a liberator of sorts, given what > happened. But again, that's just my reading of the situation, based upon > DotE et al. PWAs would imply otherwise, I suppose; but in the PWAs they > didn't need a threat to suddenly find a previously unknown love for "massa" > Vern, Broderick, and Haldemar, so you probably don't even need the threat > of a Thonian invasion if you want to portray the Alphatians & Jennites as > being fast friends.) > It'd be an interesting war scenario, though, I suppose. If that works well > in your campaign, then go for it. 8-) I feel NACE, in removing the tirranical kings of Blackrock and Verdan should try to create a more cooperative environment for the Jennites on the peninsula. Those on the Peninsula would become more cooperative, whilst those on the Steppes would become more and more aggresive against the Alphatians, especially when they close off the neck of the peninsula with more fortresses, cutting off raiding routes to the inland, denying the Jennites a source of sustenance in times of hardship. I find this whole Thonia discussion very interesting and feel that it would be a good addition to the campaign world. However I think that a few more realms (including an elven and/or dwarven) would diversify the Esterhold peninsula/western Skothar. As always I sign, Michael III Mysteria "De Tempore ad Eternale" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:01:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, some you you already know this, but perhaps not all of you. This is the history of the first decades of the second Alphatian empire - shortly after making landfall. ======================================================================== Prologue "When the Alphatians came to this world we landed on the big island now known as "Alphatia". As the Alphatians were only the sad remainder of a once mighty people the main problem was to create a new empire in which we could dwell. From the beginning it was clear that this task would last centuries. The emperor and the Grand Council quickly decided that the Island we had reached was a good place to begin with this task. The generals had to do their work now. The surviving admirals of the Alphatian Imperial Navy could not stand that. They now had to find a way to reestablish their former might. Of course, we had no magical ships in those early years. The knowledge about the construction of such ships was still there, but our new world had different natural laws; some readjustments were inevitable. The dream of the admirals about an air fleet was years, even decades away. Fortunately, even in our grandiose old empire we had great oceans, and bold sailors to ply them. Now in our new world those men and women were quickly promoted to captains and admirals, connected with the task to create a new ocean fleet. Some resources were used to build this fleet as naval support is useful in conquering an island. So the fleet was built." So far an excerpt from Captain Ebenezum's article about the discovery of Bellissaria. As it is widely known when entering this world through a magical gate our successors landed near the place where Sundsvall was built later on. I, Jamuga Khan, a noble from Lagrius on Bellissaria, and my young friend Captain Ebenezum, a noble from Ambur, have written the history of the events. We, the authors, want to give you, our most estimated reader, a clear look to the first years of Alphatia on the world of Mystara. Unfortunately our beginnings normally are covered by the mists of legends, but this will come to an end now. Read the truth about the victories and defeats, about treason and traitors, about discoveries and settlements. The Beginning (AY 1) The magical gate was opened only a half mile from what is now the the border of the city of Sundsvall. First some troops under the command of General Zarthurastram entered the new world to secure the terrain. The passage lasted a whole month. In this time the army had to fight local tribes, but those primitive barbarians did not pose any problem. When the passage was completed the supreme command of the army sent scouts into all directions to learn all about the territory. A camp was made in which the leaders of the Followers of the Air convened to make the necessary decisions. As we all known they came to terms to make Kerothar the new emperor and to form the Grand Council as a second tier of government. Much work had to be done. The people had to be fed, the military had to be built up. A universal compulsory military service was proclaimed. To increase the number of volunteers it was edicted that those joining for a longer period would be paid much better. Additionally some private armies were founded, which got special licenses. Among these are to be noticed those of Ashar and Aasla. The Alphatian admiralty desired to build a fleet. To fulfill this purpose they had to find a ocean first, of course! For the moment the admirals mustered all who knew anything about swimming boats and ships. An air fleet was decades away, but the problem was not forgotten. Professor Ar, one of the most estimated and capable scientists of the Followers of the Air, was charged with this project. The scouts reported that the north was an untamed and unpopulated wilderness, so the supreme command and the government decided to press into the south. As we know when following the Greenlake River you will reach the Haunted Marches. This of course was a drawback for the admiralty, but not a too big one as the best engineer with knowledge about canal-building had survived the war and voyage. This woman, Sasdil, was ordered to construct a secure fairway of the Greenlake River through the marches. While working on this project she lived in a camp just north of the marches well-guarded by imperial elite troops. While building ships around Sundsvall and constructing the fairway, imperial marines crossed the marches in small boats and reached the ocean. This success did not do anything to decrease the mockery of the generals. The admirals kept silence and even intensified their efforts. In the meantime General Zarthurastram pressed south-eastward and reached the Barony of Bigos, part of the Duchy of Herot, which was the western extension of the big kingdom of Rardish to the east. The barony was overrun, but when the duke started to react, Emperor Kerothar had to call back the general and his troops. The reason for this command was that scouting troops in the west had met strong forces of the kingdom of Dafe. Led by the Duke of Fifeton the hostile soldiers stormed eastward and threatened the Alphatian encampments at the Greenlake River. Now the young Second Empire had to face a war at two fronts. The empire was on the verge of collapse but fortunately the military and magical strength of the Alphatian troops, but especially the military abilities of General Zarthurastram were enough to master this crisis. The duke was beaten and he himself were killed in the battle. To the great relief of all Alphatians the enemy did not seem to have the most simple magical measures to attack or defend himself. Likewise the hostile troops from Herot relied solely on swords and muscles. Two weeks after the battle against the Dafians the Alphatian troops met the Herotian army. One fortunate circumstance for the empire was that the Duke of Herot was not on good terms with his king at this time, so he fought alone and was thrown back into his duchy though we had to give up the barony of Bigos, which General Zarthurastram had conquered only weeks before. The Political Situation (AY 1) Now we had met two of our neighbours, and we had learned much about them by fighting them and by interrogating the prisoners of war. Before making them our slaves the hostile soldiers told us some details about their home countries and their enemies. To the west there was the big kingdom of Dafe, which lasted to the Greenlake River before. In the east existed the kingdom of Rardish, which reached to the spring of the Herot River (Thera River) and comprised modern Randel, Bettellyn, Eadrin and Theranderol. To the south there were two smaller kingdoms, Afotir and Shavadze. On the coast in the northwest existed some smaller city-states, and north of Rardish were a wild and lawless region, populated by a wild race of seafarers who earned their livings as pirates. On the other hand the informations about the north were so vaguely that the government and the supreme command could not possibly rely on them. Back to the south: Dafe and Rardish were arch-enemies but the distance did not allow too much wars between them. Afotir was on bad terms with Dafe and Shavadze, but a part-time ally of Rardish, Shavadze successfully hold ground against Rardish with a little help by Dafe. Luckily enough all kingdoms had stretched their population too much, and between the settled regions there were usually wilderness. Another advantage was that those barbarians did not have very much knowledge about magic. To protect the empire against the barbarians from the west, the emperor made a call to all experienced wizards to construct a protective wall 100-150 miles west of the Greenlake River. With the completion of this wall the first year on Mystara ended. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:02:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ======================================================================== The War against Herot (AY 2) In AY 1 the Alphatian armies had beaten both the Dukes of Fifeton and Herot. While the Fifetonian army had made a hastily retreat after the death of the Duke, the Duke of Herot had survived, and he was now well aware that a new might had arisen. As we can conclude from captured documents in AY 2 the duke started to improve his relations to his king. To his bad luck, his progress was slow. So General Zarthurastram was able to conquer Bigos and surrounded Herot. When the inhabitants of the city prepared themselves for a long siege, the Alphatian troops stormed into the city through a massive usage of magic. The duke had not been in the city as he had been distracted by a smaller unit led by Colonel Errolyn, the oldest son of the emperor and later Kerothar II., who had been sent against the smaller border baronies Nehiun and Avakinet. In the battle of Avakinet Errolyn was able to beat the duke, but he was not able to capture him. As the Herotian soldiers had been beaten on all fronts they were not able to hold ground against General Zarthurastram who now even conquered the small counties of Dolas and Mersepolis. The Duke of Herot made a retreat into the rest of the kingdom of Rardish and probably he called for help. In the meanwhile General Zarthurastram secured the duchy and even sent emissaries to Shavadze to assure them that Alphatia had no hostile plans against them. This, of course, was a political lie to prevent a war at three fronts. The general now retired for deliberation into his new headquarter in Herot where he studied the captured documents and maps together with his subordinate officers. The Situation in the North (AY 2) North of Sundsvall, as the aspiring capital was now named, the scouts had found nothing but endless forests. Ashar, one of the leaders of the private armies, petioned for a license to cut wood in these forests. At the same time he promised to protect the capital with his own soldiers from dangers in the north. The emperor and the Grand Council saw the advantages in this plan, and he founded two camps, which were later called Ashar and Verboton, and the Northern Alphatian Wood Company (NAWC). Nothing spectacular is to be noticed for this region until the arrival of the Shiye elves under Ardashiye and Illashiye 200 years later. In this time some minor offenses were summed up to accuse the venerable Ashar and the other leaders of the company for high treason. The NAWC lost their license and the land was given to the elves. The War against Fifeton (AY 2) The border to Fifeton and Dafe had been secured one year before. So in AY 2 only some weak units were guarding the wall. Aasla, a Cypri women, who feared that the fate of her people could worsen under the "pure Alphatian" Kerothar I., desired to find a home for herself. When this meant to beat legions of barbarians then she was determined to do it. So in AY 2 she decided that the training of her soldiers was sufficient and she asked the Grand Council for the permission to invade Dafe. As the empire were not risking too much, she got their permission and crossed the wall. Since the defeat and death of the Duke of Fifeton one year before the suppressed peasants had started a revolt. Royal troops had arrived to quell this revolt, but the civil war was still ongoing. Now with Aasla coming the situation for the Dafenian army even worsened. She made herself the leader of the revolt by presenting herself as a liberator and by promising a better life for the peasants. So after some few months the Duchy of Fifeton were conquered, but Aasla had not yet found the place where she wanted to live. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:03:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ======================================================================== The War against Dovir (AY 2-3) The kingdom of Dafe secured the pass through the mountains which separated the duchy from the rest of kingdom. Now, the invaders blocked by the mountains, the marches and the impenetrable forests, they felt secure. Aasla surprised them by crossing these forests and conquered the capital of the County of Adiach. Next spring she marched southward and conquered the capital of the duchy of Dovir and the barony of Banna. Here she found a beautiful bay where she wished to live, and she renamed the region Aasla. For the rest of the year she sent her brother Aaslon with some troops into the north to handle the problem with the barony of Warzazath. She sent emissaries to the barony of Lesir to negotiate a capitulation. The baron was desperated and had probably given up but the commanding general of the royal troops were determined to continue the fighting. So Aasla concealed herself as a simple peasant, teleported into the stronghold and charmed the general. After that Lesir capitulated. After conquering more than half of Dafe Aasla now proclaimed the kingdom of Haven. The emperor used this opportunity to proclaim the kingdom of Vertiloch, the traditional name of the realm of the emperor in the days of the first empire. The former duchy of Herot remained an imperial territory yet. The First Explorations of the Navy (AY 2-3) In AY 2 a small flottilla of seven ships sailed down the Greenlake River and entered the big gulf, now known as Aaslan gulf. They decide to set a western course, but only three days later two ships sank during a storm. In the shallow waters before the barony of Banna the flottilla met one Dafenian ship. A battle occurred and as a result two ships sank, two ships severely damaged, but the hostile vessel were captured even it has taken heavy damages. One ship had to be given up due to damages, and the reduced flottilla returned to Saddor which had been made the first headquarter of the Imperial Navy. The captured ship was studied carefully, and many details were integrated into the second generation of Alphatian ships. In AY 3 a new flottilla set sails and returned to the barony of Banna. The plan was to attack or even conquer the first deep water harbour the Alphatians had located. But to the great disappointment of the admirals the flottilla was too late as Aasla already had conquered the barony. But on the other hand the admirals were not too disappointed as they now had a harbour and even more ships which were captured by Aasla's troops. The War against Igondor (AY 3) The big county of Igondor with its triangular shape was the next target of General Zarthurastram. After his emissaries had negotiated some assistance from Shavadze General Thraeliol was sent with the 5th army into the county. Igondor was bursting from royal troops as the invading Alphatian troops was disturbing an ongoing campaign against Shavadze. Obviously the generals were not informed about the events in the north one year back. The troops from Shavadze and Alphatia attacked at the same time, and while Shavadze was able to reconquer its lost territories on its side of the river General Thraeliol crushed all Igondoron cities. The king of Rardish could not interfere as he was occupied with more urgent matters. The losses General Thraeliol had to take were much higher than expected, so he could not return to Herot, but had to stay with his complete remaining army as a occupation force. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:04:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years IV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ======================================================================== The First War against Rardish (AY 3-10) At the same time as Igondor was attacked General Zarthurastram entered the the plains of Rardish and marched toward Kedy. The king of Rardish marched against the Alphatian troops, but was not able to battle them before they had burned down the town of Keby. In the sight of the burning Keby the royal troops finally were able to engage General Zarthurastram. The battle of Keby was a tie as the general never had intended to win. Instead he made a proper retreat into Herot. His scouts had travelled through Rardish since the first encounter with the troops of Herot, so he now had a good sight onto the situation in the kingdom. So, in AY 4, General Zarthurastram crossed the foothills of the Grey Mountains bear Nehiun and stormed down into the northern parts of the kingdom, the county of Rimpos and the Duchy of Quanfax. Unfortunately the emperor and the Grand Council did not see the military situation as optimistic as the general and recalled him. As not very much Alphatians had survived the end of the first empire the population were low and the ranks of the army, although highly skilled in the magical and martial arts, were dangerously thin. General Zarthurastram did not react and continued his campaign against northern Rardish. Only one commander of his army, Colonel Errolyn, returned. In this moment the emperor reconsidered the deeds the general had done. Of course, as the leader of the Followers of the Air, Kerothar had been happy that General Zarthurastram had fought against his emperor Alphaks I., but now, being emperor for himself, he feared a strong defect in the character of the general. At least General Zarthurastram had defected the former emperor! A quotation of Kerothar I. on this matter is still known today: "We love the treason, but we hate the traitors." Colonel Errolyn was made general and commander of the occupied zone of Herot. His first decision was to construct a second wall to the kingdom of Rardish. Then he petitioned to make Herot a new kingdom. His father, the emperor, and the Grand Council agreed and Errolyn renamed the country Theranderol after his sister Thera and his brother Derol. The land was not as big as nowadays as the territories west of the Thera was still under the control of Shavadze. In the following years General Zarthurastram managed to conquer the whole north of Rardish, but he had to do it without getting any soldier or any supply from Sundsvall. He even sent troops into Foresthome as the barbarians from Lake Llyn had marched southward in AY 5 and attacked him in the back. General Llyn marched with the 3rd army into the north on AY 6 but was beaten severely and even lost his life. He never say the lake which now bears his name. General Zarthurastram managed to get enough supply from the conquered territories but his logistic lines were becoming long and longer, and the number of his soldiers was dwindling. Due to losses and occupation units he had to station in the conquered towns he had no more than some hundred men and women when he entered the region now known as northern Randel. In AY 10 General Zarthurastram conquered Norok but was beaten at Ubeidda. Very much angered he retreated to Quanfax where he had made his headquarter. In a try to make a political victory out of this military defeat he travelled to Sundsvall and negotiated the famous treaty with the emperor and the Grand Council. He got all the territories now known as Bettellyn and Randel and the right to name the king of Eadrin. He chosed General Thraeliol as the first king. Secret documents from this era show that the emperor and the Council had already reached an agreement to crown the general so they agreed to the wish of the general. For that General Zarthurastram promised to train the Imperial Army and to serve the emperor, personally and with his army. Generations of historians have squabbled about the question if Kerothar knew that General Zarthurastram had not conquered the whole kingdom of Rardish yet. Personally I believe that the emperor learned this facts only several years later. (In this point we disagree: I believe that Kerothar knew the situation well enough. Note by Cpt. Ebenezum) Fact is that the war had exhausted Rardish. The Alphatian troops they had battled were small and finally they get exhausted as well, but this victory had costed the kingdom much more than it could afford. Approximately more than 90 % of the territory was lost, and 60-70 % of its inhabitants now served the Alphatian Empire as slaves. The morale of the population was dangerously low, and the morale of the soldiers who had fought against icestorms and magic missiles, lightnings and fireballs, sleep and charm spells, was not really better. But it is also fact that the kingdom of Rardish did not fell before AY 92. The reasons why it was beaten so late are discussed heavily. During this time other territories were conquered, and already conquered territories were settled. (My personal suggestion is that the emperor did not wish to see General Zarthurastram connecting his territories too soon. Note by Cpt. Ebenezum) The Discovery of the West Coast (AY 3-4) As told before Aasla had sent her brother Aaslon with some troops into the north to handle the problem with the barony of Warzazath. The little and remote barony posed no problem for the Alphatian soldiers now fully adapted to war. Instead of returning to his sister Aaslon decided to explore the mountains, which he called Kerothar Mountains to honour the emperor. Aaslon managed to cross the mountains, but he lost many soldiers. When reaching the Stonewall region, he left the troops behind and explored the region with only some henchmen. Unfortunately the soldiers from the city-states in this region were on guard and engaged the Alphatian soldiers. They were able to beat the attackers, but lost more men. When learning this Aaslon returned to his men and retreated into the mountains. There he was caught by the beginning winter and had to pass the winter in a secluded valley in the Kerothar Mountains. With a grossly reduced troop he returned his sister in AY 4. Aasla was very angry about her brother, and he decided to leave her army. Instead he joined the ranks of the Royal Marines which were just forming in the city of Aasla. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:06:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: Irrelevant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ummm... yeah... whatever excuses you make are irrelevant. > Here is the short and simple: > > Don't do it again. > > And unles you have any honest and essential questions, end the > thread. Now. "We are the Leroy! Resistance is futile!" :-) Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:07:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years V MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ======================================================================== The War against Dafe (AY 4-8) In AY 4 the Aasla Naval Base became fully operational, and Queen Aasla and the Emperor Kerothar came to terms to finish the war against Dafe together. The daughter of the emperor, Princess Thera, became supreme commander of the Naval Sector West. The both women became friends, and even Aasla was content with her conquests she realized that the war had to be finished. So in AY 4 Queen Aasla marched southward to Palvaton, while Admiral Thera attacked from sea. Of course the imperial marines were victorious. The Dafenian troops sent against the queen were not able to engage her, but the losses had been much higher than expected. Back in Aasla City both women had to make new plans. At this point we want to talk about Prince Derol. Despite being the son of the capable wizard Kerothar I. he had not the faintest talent for magic. Back in Old Alphatia he would have spent his life in a secluded sanatorium as all those rare Alphatians without the talent to cast spells. In our new world these santoriums had not been built yet. So he had the chance to join the navy and in AY 4 he was among the men and women under the command of his sister. Here in Aasla he heared the voices of the Greater Powers. Some might remember from their lessons in history back in school that Derol was the first Alphatian cleric in Mystara. They might even remember that he was a member of the navy and became an admiral much later. The most would conclude that he was a cleric of Protius, the old man from the sea, as most seafaring clerics worship this being. Unfortunately nothing could be further away from the truth. Instead he was a cleric of Asterius, and his immortal told him much about the business of a thief and a spy. Now, his sister and the queen pondering above their maps he developed a really clever plan. He proposed to travel to Afotir where he planned to inspire the Afotiri to sack the coastal cities of Dafe. The women were not too happy about this but Princess Thera herself teleported him to the capital of the kingdom. There he started his campaign. In AY 5 Afotiri buccaneers started to attack the towns of Dafe. They even attacked Palvaton and Aasla but through the information of Prince Derol the Alphatian forces were well-prepared and could beat the attackers severely. Finally, only hours after an Afotiri attack, an Alphatian fleet sailed into the harbour of Songodir. The defenders were disorganized and confused as most soldiers were helping in removing rubble and corpses. It was an easy victory. In AY 6 the town of Gorar felt. The Dafenians had not expected the attack as neither the Afotiri nor the Alphatian ships had sailed so far north yet. So the town was full of refugees who hindered the soldiers. In AY 7 the Alphatian Navy conquered Lorm, the last Dafenian harbour city which had at least a little significance. In AY 8 forces marched into the inland from Gorar, Songodir, Palvaton and Aasla. The soldiers of Dafe fought valiantly but they had no chance. Especially the troops of Queen Aasla had a devastating effects to the defenders. Her politic of treating the peasants well had earned her the respect, and many soldiers. For the last 4 years she had not fought very much but had guarded the border at the Alphas River. So the true might of Haven's army surprised Dafe. The marines had taken a greater part of fighting during the war and were by far not so strong now. So they posed as distractions for Queen Aasla who finally conquered the cities of Hady and Dafe. After making the Dafenian king her personal slave she returned to Aasla. The war was over. Time of Pondering (AY 10-15) By now it had become obviously that the magical ability was decreasing. Much more children than before had been born since the landing without the ability to cast spells. Now with Dafe defunct and Rardish reduced to a small remainder of its former self a time of consolidation began - and a time of pondering. Many discussion were led, but finally our ancestors came to terms to continue the conquests. The War against Afotir (AY 16-17) The war against Afotir was short, heavy and successful. The navy attacked Eagret. At the same time King Zarthurastram, King Thraeliol and some auxiliary troops from Shavadze crossed the border. Due to the intelligence work of Prince Derol, now a capable cleric and a captain of the Alphatian Imperial Navy, the war were a complete disaster for Afotir. The Alphatian commanders took care for their troops, so it lasted two years to finish the wars, but our losses were low. The war came to an end, when Captain Derol took the Afotiri king as a captive. All but the capital had been conquered at this moment, and now the troops crumbled. The admiralty gave Derol the chance to return to Sundsvall to build up the Naval Intelligence Service or to became commander of the new Eagret Naval Base. After 13 years of being a spy in Afotir he decided to return to Sundsvall. Of course he was promoted to the rank of an admiral. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:23:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well...I understood the Thonians were a womewhat asiatic people. The > mongols, yakkuts and many other peoples in that region of the world do live > in such regions and I think it would distinguish them culturally from the > rest of Mystara. > Hmmmn. . .to me they came off in the DA modules as somewhat a mixture of Occidentals: some vaguely English names amid some that seem more Slavonic. Iyx is unknown, but the Iron Duke's name certainly seemed Slavonic, as did the name of the Imperial Capital (Mohacs). The "mongol types" seemed to be those Afridhi, to me. > > I think this would work well too. Perhaps the Thonians, once they have > bolted the Alphatians up in their coastal cities and inland forts, would be > able to threaten the Yannivey Islands and northern Bellissaria, forcing NACE > to turn their attention to such a threat. > Certainly possible. With Floating Ar over the Yannivey, however, that'd be hard for Thonia to invade, because they have relatively few air assets (the Pegataurs). Of course, while NACE is still depleated with relatively few skyships, it'd be worth a shot. But still, the Thonians would prolly have to beef up their aerial assets before trying that. > > I DO feel that if Thonia were to > be added to the MML campaign world, they SHOULD see the disappearance of > Alphatia proper as an opportunity to strike at the weakened Alphatians. > True, once they shake off the cobwebs, they might see this as an oportunity to regain some of their lost glories. All > in all, I think the Thonia would be a great new mover and shaker in the > eastern rim of the Known World, since the technically backward Jennites in > themselves could (or more properly SHOULD to remain believable as they are) > never become a true threat to the Alphatians. I strongly caution against > mirroring the Neathar/Neatharum situation in Esterhold/Steppes of Jen. > Well, the Jennites aren't nessissarily permanently backwards. Many a people have thought little of nomads, only to regret it. Of course, there's that stuff re. the Jennites blasting themselves back to the Stone Age some time ago, but IIRC nothing says they've stayed there forever. Thonia would be more of an organized, "civilized" threat though, for sure, and as such might be more active on diplomatic as well as military fronts. And the Jennites aren't shipbuilders, so the amount of threat they can pose (even if well armed and organized, which they might not be) is limited by that. > I feel NACE, in removing the tirranical kings of Blackrock and Verdan should > try to create a more cooperative environment for the Jennites on the > peninsula. > Well, it could. That's the way it played out in the PWAs & JA. "More cooperative" doesn't nessissarly mean the embrace of brothers and the vanishing of a desire to be free of the "invaders" however - but, again, that's largely how it's been portrayed (but not entirely how it was in the 1016 MA, granted). Anyhow, I've given my opinion on that before, and it's just one opinion (though I tend to like it because it's mine, we all like our own opinions best.) > Those on the Peninsula would become more cooperative, whilst > those on the Steppes would become more and more aggresive against the > Alphatians, especially when they close off the neck of the peninsula with > more fortresses, cutting off raiding routes to the inland, denying the > Jennites a source of sustenance in times of hardship. > That'd be one way to go. Would be expensive. NACE is engaged in a lot of expensive building & rebuilding projects. I wonder if it'd be worth it to build more forts and garisson the whole place. But it'd be fun for a certain type of campaign, though: that'd have a bit of a "Wild West" feel about it, I imagine. > I find this whole Thonia discussion very interesting and feel that it would > be a good addition to the campaign world. However I think that a few more > realms (including an elven and/or dwarven) would diversify the Esterhold > peninsula/western Skothar. > Yes, true. After looking at Thibault Sarlat's map of Western Skothar I have an idea (budding, not entirely formed yet) for a nation in that valley region behind the Thorin Mtn Range (the one with the river, where those lakes are). Nothing concrete yet, but that's one area I'm sort of interested in "filling in" the gaps of, at least for myself (if I do anything concrete I'll share it with the list). Caelengaer was an interesting Elven realm (and I, for one, liked the fact that the "green ocean" was arboreal rather than water). Putting some Dwarves around there as you did is also a good idea. Filling in the details of Minaea & what is "beyond" them would be interesting, too. And the Tanagoro as well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 02:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Rogers meandered fecklessly... > Sorry to butt in ADMIN but I remember reading a letter in the letters > section of Dragon Magazine a few years back. A player asked if he could > copy an article for a friend who did not have that specific copy. TSR > replied and said they had no problem with that as long as no profit was > made, ie no photocopying the Entire Dragon #1 and selling it. Since > Meltheim only wants one picture and not the whole book/magazine/module > etc I think similar logic should apply. I'll tell you what. If you can get someone in authority at WotC to send me an e-mail informing me that it is perfectly acceptable to make such copies, I will will change the list policy. Until then, the rule stands. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:14:39 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Thonia] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >Hmmmn. . .to me they came off in the DA modules as somewhat a mixture of= >Occidentals: some vaguely English names amid some that seem more >Slavon= ic. Iyx is unknown, but the Iron Duke's name certainly seemed >Slavonic, as d= id the name of the Imperial Capital (Mohacs). Skandros the Slayer (an NPC- presumably Thonian, since he works for the I= ron Duke) is thought to be of Bolger ancestry. It seems to me that there is a= RW group known as the Bolgers, but I may just be confusing them with Bulgars= =2E Either way, sounds Slavic. > The "mongol types" seemed to be those Afridhi, to me. I'd say the Peshwah seemed more like the "mongol types" (or perhaps Scyth= ian), though the oriental aspect of Mongolian nature isn't so evident. They are= nomadic, horse riding/domesticating people with yellowish skin tone and vaguely Mongolian names (Bortai, for example). The Afridhi seem to be something different- possibly Gallic, though not q= uite the same technologically speaking (no chariots, no horse domestication) a= t least prior to their migration. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:05:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: cradle of all D&D civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are three primary sources on Threshold: 1) GAZ 1, The Grand Duchy of Karameikos. 2) In Search of Adventure, a collection of low-level advantures set primarily in Karameikos. 3) Night's Dark Terror, an adventure set in the area of Threshold. I am not familiar with the AD&D Karameikos stuff. George ----- Original Message ----- From: Oliver To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:56 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] cradle of all D&D civilization > No, not Lake Geneva, WI > > If anyone can recall when they were playing basic, the default town of > residence was known as the Threshold- where our 1st level pc hung out and > got his provisions and training. Correct me if I am wrong, but that town > was within the then Grand Duchy of Karameikos (Hail Duke Stefan!) > > Where is the most amount of printed published info on the Threshold? > > Does anybody have city stats (population, industries, guilds, major > players, etc.) or town maps on-line? Or even on-line maps of the where the > Threshold lays in relation to all the other Known World locales? > > -obb > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:02:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Immortal equivalences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As to a better identification with Roman characters, I think the sounder > equivalence is: > Odin = Horatius Cocles > Tyr = Mucius Scaevola > as they both reflect the gods' physical traits. > OOT, George Dumezil, one of the greatest linguists of all time, says that the Romans stripped their Gods of human characteristics and gave them to national 'heroes', in a process of 'hisoricization' that maybe explains why Roman priests were not a chaste, but rather politicians that dealt also with the religious aspect of the Republic. Naturally, this much time before they were culturally heavily influenced by Greeks. But I'm rambling. Sorry, Leroy, this doesn't have anything to do with Mystara. I'll never do it again. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:15:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: nostalgia cont. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oliver ha scritto: > Hail > > When I was campaigning in my younger days, one of the greater and most > feared unseen threats was an entity known as the Black Eagle Barony. This > evil baron, along with his lycanthrope allies at Wereskalot were the thorn > in Duke Stefan's backside. > > Does anyone have NPC & personality stats on Herr Baron von Hendriks? > > Info or maps of the then Fort Doom, Wereskalot and the rest of the Barony? > > Current official or non-official info (whatever year it is now, 1017?) on > the state of affairs of that region and whereabouts of the Baron (if alive) > or his progeny? > I think that the best thing to do for you is to download the MA's from year 1014 to 1016, and read through Karameikos geography and the year's events. And the Black Eagle Barony is dead, but its Baron is alive and well in Glantri! The url is: dnd.starflung.com Enjoy! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:27:09 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Asking for Image Scans Is a List Violation (was That one picture) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haHA, i will change my request so that it is perfectly legal by all rules! Can someone tell me where i can find a perfectly legal sketch or drawing by the artist known as Fred Fields? I am particularly interested in the location of a sketch of a Half-Ogre fighter wielding a Giant Scimitar. That is all, thanks. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ps. Don't smite me! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:54:22 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mystarans: I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known World? No, I don't have a PC that needs to be committed. Just that I might want to sent my PCs to go find an NPC who was committed into an asylum and pay him a visit. Any ideas? :) Kit Navarro fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Of course, the only other person who survived that harrowing ordeal--and would probaly know about that artifact--was the mage's young daughter, Alice. Today, they refer to her as 'Mad Alice'..." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:02:45 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you find one, tell me where it is, because i need to be committed ASAP. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:13:08 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, good research topic! >From a historical perspective, mental asylums were a relatively recent development, before that people who acted funny in the Middle Ages were burned at the stake or suspected of demonic possession. It's doubtful that Mystara has progressed further than the Renaissance in this area, so likely mental illness would be equated with magic, and thus cities with magical universities would be a good candidate. IronWolf "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > Dear Mystarans: > > I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known > World? > > No, I don't have a PC that needs to be committed. Just that I might want to > sent my PCs to go find an NPC who was committed into an asylum and pay him a > visit. > > Any ideas? > > :) > > Kit Navarro > fanavarro@pacific.net.ph > "Of course, the only other person who survived that harrowing ordeal--and > would probaly know about that artifact--was the mage's young daughter, > Alice. Today, they refer to her as 'Mad Alice'..." > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:17:28 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Undersea SC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:57:50 -0500 Kevin Powers writes: > > > > > > Calengaer, the green ocean. > > > > > I like the idea. Too bad that this turned out to be only a > PROVERBIAL > ocean. I was looking forward to a sort of Undersea version of the > Savage Coast. *ominous grin* Actually... :) I've been sort of messing around with a couple ideas for a merrow (merfolk, not aquatic ogres. Damn TSR for naming AD&D aquatic ogres merrow...:) kingdom in the Trident Bay (near the Orc's Head Peninsula). I haven't really done to much with it yet, with it being behind the Houses of Darokin writeups, convertingBlack Spine to Mystara, a treatsie on the minotaurs of the Black Mountains, Hollow Moon devilfish, and other stuff that isn't even as far along as these... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:38:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Old North Pole In-Reply-To: <00f501bf7433$0fccd720$49f317d2@fanavarro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Where in Modern Mystara did the North Pole used to be, before the Great Rain of Fire? John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:02:30 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeremy Morris Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World In-Reply-To: <38A37034.F035BF04@ewa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, IronWolf wrote: > Wow, good research topic! > > >From a historical perspective, mental asylums were a relatively recent > development, before that people who acted funny in the Middle Ages were burned > at the stake or suspected of demonic possession. It's doubtful that Mystara has > progressed further than the Renaissance in this area, so likely mental illness > would be equated with magic, and thus cities with magical universities would be > a good candidate. I'd bet that Glantri has a pretty secure asylum for wizards who get caught in their own backlashes or fall victim to feeblemind spells :) Other than that, I suppose that some of the Thought Immortals might have priesthoods that would watch out for the mentally ill. I suppose some of the nations on the Savage Coast might have asylums also. I could see either Reynardey or Bellayne having some fairly primitive mental institutions. Jeremy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:42:31 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World In-Reply-To: <00f501bf7433$0fccd720$49f317d2@fanavarro> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:54 AM 2/11/00 +0800, you wrote: > >I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known >World? Best as in most helpful? Or best as in most sinister? ;) For the latter, I'd suggest Lovecraft Asylum in Boldavia (which I made up for the 1016 Almanac) or some asylum in Blackheart. Or, of course, there's White Isle in Ierendi (sort of...) If you actually want one that might cure someone, well, I can't help you out there. :) Maybe that island in Minrothad that has a cloister of mystics? Perhaps they could do some mental reparations there. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Old North Pole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Where in Modern Mystara did the North Pole used to be, before the Great > Rain of Fire? Interesting Question. From the maps in the HW box set, the old pole used to be around Hyborea. However, the DA series (and the Gaz's) imply that the north pole was Glantri. I reconcile this by looking at the HW map, and assuming that there were ice sheets in (modern) western Brun. Technically, if the time of Blackmoor was a natural ice age, then those sheets could have reached at least the Adri Varma Plateau. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:02:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > at the stake or suspected of demonic possession. It's doubtful that Mystara has > progressed further than the Renaissance in this area, so likely mental illness > would be equated with magic, and thus cities with magical universities would be > a good candidate. > That's one option. I'd also say that they'd probably be co-located in monastic communities among the Clerics of Immortals such as Koryis or Noumena. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:10:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Old North Pole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Where in Modern Mystara did the North Pole used to be, before the Great > Rain of Fire? > In the north, it would be located at the northwestern tip of Brun, what is now Hyborea ("Alaska). In the south, it would be around the southeastern tip of Davania (the Peninsula of Vulcania). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:21 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-10 9:00:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known World? >> The trick to this would be to eliminate the nations where lunatics would be locked up and treated rather than awarded dominions. In most nations the chance of that happening would be at best 50%, as half of all lunatics in most nations would conform to the prevailing national insanity and be rewarded for it. ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:20 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Poll Results...many votes needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-10 3:20:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << What he said! I can't believe none of the rest of you voted for Blackheart! Darn you all!!! :) >> Of course, one problem with this poll is that Mystara is filled with interesting nations. Even the lamest nations such as the Five Shires can be made interesting with only the slightest and subtlest of twists. (My apologies in advance to anyone who actually likes the Five Shires as presented in canonical sources.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:19 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: cradle of all D&D civilization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-10 4:38:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU writes: << I am not familiar with the AD&D Karameikos stuff. >> You are probably more familiar with it than you think, given that you apparently have access to Gaz 1. Change "Duke" to "King" and "Specularum" to "Mirros" and take your best guess at an AD&D conversion of Gaz 1 (taking events from WotI and the PWAs into account) and you should come up with something very close to the Karameikos boxed set. The few areas you get wrong will probably be better than the boxed set anyway. ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:22 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-10 11:25:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Did they suddenly decide that, well, now that they've thought about it, they don't really want Bellissaria after all? Or should there be an overwhelming invasion of NACE out of the east sometime very soon (one of the theories was that Torenal dealt this notional power a severe defeat just prior to WotI, insuring they would be unable to interfier. It's now been over a decade, time enough for this power to have recovered from such a setback - and they'd be a mite pissed off and provoked, and likely to seek solace in the phrase "payback is a bitch"). >> It it interesting that you should mention that, as I actually did have Torenal engage in a campaign against Tangor in my own personal campaign. Of course, at the time I did that I had only the maps from the old "Master DM's book" to go by, and in those the distance between Alphatia and most of Tangor seemed to be nowhere near as great as indicated by the maps in the Hollow World boxed set. In fact, when I took a close look at the maps in that boxed set I reached the conclusion that the Tanagoro would be a major civilization on Mystara (although clearly not politically united) but that they were too distant from Alphatia to pose a major threat. As a result, the worst that Alphatia really had to fear from the east would be a combined uprising/invasion from the Jennites and annoying raids from the Minaeans. If Alphatia left behind enough ships and troops to keep these annoyances in check, then Thyatis would be equal to the forces they have left -- but if they divert most of their forces to the west, then they would have a real chance of overrunning Thyatis until these eastern foes decide to make trouble for them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:23 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regard to the "Thonian Marshes": The Hollow World boxed set calls them the "Thonian Marches", which would make them a "borderland" or "frontier" rather than a swamp. In fact, the terrain seems to indicate that most of that region is tundra. Of course, the concept of a region that large being referred to as "Marches" is rather frightening, as it implies that the regions called "Thonia" and "Nentsun" on the old Master's map might be a single political unit -- and the only thing that would limit the power of such a huge empire would be its obviously sparse population density. Also, the debates over the ethnicities of people in different Skotharian regions might suggest that the people of Skothar have a more mixed appearance than elsewhere. As a result, it is quite possible that the people of Thonia (who can be cited as having both Jennite and pseudo- Slavonic influences) have a Eurasian appearance and that the people of the regions assigned to the various MOrient nations by that project (which are clearly in "Tangor" according to the Old Master's map) have a strong tendency to resemble Tiger Woods (mostly Asian/African, for those of you who don't keep up with pro golf). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:17:24 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-10 2:07:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << Even if we assume that to be the case, there nonetheless remains precedent for the Alphatian surname "policy" being a local (or probably not even that widespread) phenomenon as opposed to a national one. There is Ashari Sunlil, for example- she of "Voyage of the Princess Ark" fame. >> Of course, we could assume that "Sunlil" was the surname of her mother (a Heldannic slave). With the exception of the Aendyrs (who followed Glantrian naming conventions), the evidence for Alphatian surnames does seem to be inconclusive. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:29:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > The trick to this would be to eliminate the nations where lunatics would > be locked up and treated rather than awarded dominions. In most nations > the chance of that happening would be at best 50%, as half of all lunatics > in most nations would conform to the prevailing national insanity and be > rewarded for it. ;) Sheesh dave, how pessimistic you are! I say at most 30% myself. IronWolf "It's Specu- hey, what are you doing.. get that strait-jacket off me! IT'S SPECULARUM DAMN IT IT'S LET ME GO.." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:26:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thonia: Skothar et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Of course, the concept of a region that large being referred to as "Marches" > is rather frightening, as it implies that the regions called "Thonia" and > "Nentsun" on the old Master's map might be a single political unit -- and > the only thing that would limit the power of such a huge empire would be > its obviously sparse population density. > Actually, it doesn't imply that "Thonia" and "Nentsun" are one political unit any more than it implies "Thonia" and "the lands of Jen" are one political unit. But if folks insist upon making it so, who am I to stand in their way? It *would* be cool if more tangible details were posted, though: things like Calengaer, or my own humble description of Thonia. Then we'd see what folks vision of a unitary "Nentsun et Thonia" might be like. Same with notional eastern powers that threaten Alphatia. It's hard to talk in concrete terms about something that is only notional speculation. So consider this post a request for people to post more tangible descriptive materiel regarding the regions and nations of Skothar. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:36:30 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > annoyances in check, then Thyatis would be equal to the forces they have > left -- but if they divert most of their forces to the west, then they would > have > a real chance of overrunning Thyatis until these eastern foes decide to make > trouble for them. > Well, again - that has to be more proven than asserted. It's akin to saying Thyatis could devote all its strength against Alphatia and use none to garisson its rear, or the Hinterlands. Both powers have to watch their flanks to some degree. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:40:29 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am looking for a copy of Karamekos, and vicinity, to email to Eleanor. Can someone tell us where it is? Hers got a little crispy! (the maps, I mean) Thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:41:30 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YOU CAN'T ASK FOR MAPS, THEY ARE IMAGES, AND WE KNOW THAT WE CAN'T ASK FOR THEM ON THE LIST!!!!! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:41:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry, it's late, and i'm punchy, and i have an early class tomorrow . . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:44:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry, I thought there were ones crafted by list people, therefore possibily not copyrighted. --- Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: > YOU CAN'T ASK FOR MAPS, THEY ARE IMAGES, AND WE KNOW THAT WE CAN'T ASK FOR > THEM ON THE LIST!!!!! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:48:49 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hm... I got a rough one based on the original, don't know if it's a copyright violation or not, but I could probably finish it for you. IronWolf Kar Ess wrote: > > Sorry, I thought there were ones crafted by list people, therefore possibily not copyrighted. > > --- Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: > > YOU CAN'T ASK FOR MAPS, THEY ARE IMAGES, AND WE KNOW THAT WE CAN'T ASK FOR > > THEM ON THE LIST!!!!! > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:26:25 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-11 12:39:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Well, again - that has to be more proven than asserted. It's akin to saying Thyatis could devote all its strength against Alphatia and use none to garisson its rear, or the Hinterlands. Both powers have to watch their flanks to some degree. >> But the difference is that Thyatis is more able to ignore the Thratians of northern Davania than Alphatia is able to ignore the various "barbarians" of Skothar. If Thyatis ignores the Thratians, then the worst that they risk is the total loss of their "Hinterlands" territories, which they were only beginning to develop anyway. On the other hand, even if Alphatia is willing to forfeit Esterhold they still cannot afford to ignore the threat that the Minaeans might pose to their "bread basket" in Bellissaria. I am not suggesting that the Minaeans would have any serious chance of conquering and then holding a substantial portion of Bellissaria -- far from it! -- but it would be an easy matter for them to make Bellissaria feel sufficiently threatened that their tune changes from "Destroy the Glantrian infidels!" to "Save us from the eastern barbarians!". In any case, I definitely agree that Skothar does need to be described in more detail, as the "canonical" information about that continent is sketchy at best. And there is no question that properly detailing Skothar will prove to be a formidable task, given that even the continent of Brun (where all "canonical" campaigns are centered) has significant holes in its national descriptions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:26:44 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Adventure Idea, need a mysterious enemy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I've been pondering the next 'adventure' in my campaign, and I've decided on a course. In a prior session the players found the remnants of a druid from Robrenn and some of his items, one of which was a ring of wishes with his personal seal. (A ring made entirely of wood also catches notice.) The players have been intending to return the ring for a few sessions now, after they conclude the previous adventure. The ring, I've decided, belongs to a druid of a village called Latorix, which lies far to the north of the Confederation, in a small forest at the center of an arid region. (It's easy to spot on the Red Steel maps.) Latorix was settled some 30 years ago by an exploration/colonization party in order to gather intelligence about the goblinoids of the steppes. Even though they lie at the center of three major groupings of goblinoids (The Huptai, the Kuttai, and the orcs and goblins of northern Robrenn) their isolated spot prevents the goblinoids from destroying them. The village gathers information on the movements of the goblinoids so that Robrenn can be warned of any major alliances. Because of it's sensitive location and nature, it's been a closely guarded secret of the druids. However, things are not well in Latorix at the moment. The region settled was always a strange one, even the goblinoids avoid the desert and the hills and forests to the northwest of it. Legends speak of haunted regions and deadly creatures that lay waste to entire hordes. About four months, a scouting patrol did not return to Latorix from an exploration mission in the northwest highlands, and since then the village has suffered periodic attacks by a mysterious enemy. Despite all their efforts the enemy is poweful and unnatural in origin, and their situation is growing desperate. A party lead by the druid with the ring left over two months before to seek aid, but did not make it to civilization. Yeah, I know, shades of "Eaters of the Dead". ("The 13th Warrior" for those who watch movies instead) My current idea at the moment is to have the mysterious enemy be a lost outpost of Blackmoor, completely automated, which was inadvertently activated and is now producing robots en masse to carry out ancient orders. However, I'm not married to the idea, and I thought I'd see if anyone else had something better. I'd taken a look at DA3 "City of the Gods" but the robots there are far too powerful for what I had in mind, so I'll probably end up designing my own. Suggestions? IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it! On a different subject... does anyone else think Isodore d'Amberville is hot? ... ... Stop looking at me like that." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:05:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Adventure Idea, need a mysterious enemy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you don't want to have blackmoor intervene in your campaign, then take the Oards from CM6, I think they would be great.The only thing is to figure out a reason for them to be there and to guard the place from invaders. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > YOU CAN'T ASK FOR MAPS, THEY ARE IMAGES, AND WE KNOW THAT WE CAN'T ASK FOR > THEM ON THE LIST!!!!! Woah.. Even if that was sarcasm, no need to scream it!! ^_- Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:03:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years VI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ======================================================================== Organizing the Empire (AY 17-30) The war against Afotir had brought more territories to rule. Many work had to be done now. So the years swept over the young second Empire. Shavadze was a friendly kingdom, and Rardish did not have the might to make any trouble. There is really nothing special to be said about these years. The Maiden Flight of the Phoenix (AY 30) 30 years Ar had worked to redevelop the art of skyship building. Now, in AY 30, he finished the first Mystaran skyship for the navy, the HIMS Phoenix. After fulfilling this task he demanded funds for developing floating islands, but the council and the emperor refused. Instead they ordered him to build even more skyships. He refused and quitted his service for the empire. Very angered he build a second ship, the Flying Rock, for himself and left the capital with his followers. The government now had the difficult task to teach the newly discovered principles to more wizards. Ar had left back all papers, but he had taken his complete team with him. This fact was a severe back-stroke for the empire. The Phoenix itself remained, of course, but it was only a small vessel, appropiated as a courier boat, as the greatest part of the 30 years had been used to create the principles. Besides the research of Ar had shown that building new skyships on Mystara was a difficult and expensive process unlike back in Old Alphatia where this task could be performed very easily. Time of Exploration (AY 30-42) In these years the navy committed some explorational missions. In AY 32, the east coast of Alphatia were charted up to Foresthome, additionally some new bases were founded. In AY 35 an expedition explored the west coast up to nowadays Limn. There they met ships from the island of Queodhar and were driven back. The expeditions of Cpt. Trikelios in AY 37, 39 and 40 and of Cpt. Ekto in AY 38 and 42 to the Isle of Dawn shall not be described here. Securing the South (AY 42-48) After some years of peace the emperor, the Grand Council and the supreme command now decided that the trusted ally from former campaigns, the kingdom of Shavadze, was no longer needed. So troops from Greenspur, Eadrin, Theranderol and imperial troops under the command of king Zarthurastram entered the kingdom and conquered acre about acre of the land. The Shavadzians were the far strongest enemy Alphatia had to fight until now as they had learned much about modern warfare from their Alphatian military advisors. The result of the campaign were clear though. Shavadze became another Alphatian province. Two problems shall be mentioned here: The imperial troops suffered heavy losses during the war, and king Zarthurastram accused the emperor of being responsible for that - but not too loud! When looking into reports from these times this opinion seems to be acknowledged as the soldiers of Zarthurastram had to do the hardest jobs of all. At the same time the king of Rardish started a counter-attack and managed to reconquer some of his lost territories. The reduced troops of king Zarthurastram were finally able to stop the attack, and in the final the result of this war was a tie. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:05:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: The Conquest of Alphatia - The Early Years VII MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ======================================================================== The First Queodharian War (AY 50-62) In AY 50 King Zarthurastram demanded a war against Rardish, but the supreme command of the navy directed the attention to the Queodharian situation. After the defeat against in AY 35 the northern raiders now appeared at the coasts of Aasla and sacked the coastal settlements. The new ships were much better than fifteen years ago, and the admirals proposed a campaign against the raiders. The emperor asked the Grand Council, and the vote was against the Rardish war and for the Queodharian war. So units of the Alphatian Imperial Navy left their bases and sailed into the north. First the navy caught the Queodharians by surprise, and all enemies were sunk. In AY 51 the villages in the Stonewall region were conquered by marines under the command of Colonel Aaslon. One year later Aaslon burned down the settlements farther north. Near the location where now Draco can be found the navy founded a base. In AY 52 the Queodharians started a counter-attack. Over the next years some minor naval battles occured, and bases were constructed and destroyed. In AY 60 the Stonewall base was conquered by the Queodharians. After this defeat the navy sent a fleet into the north to battle the enemy on his own ground. The battle occured in AY 61 around the north-western tip of the continent and was a major defeat for the Imperial Navy. In this battle a young midshipman took over command over the severely beaten HIMS Medusa and steered back the ship into an Alphatian harbour. The name of this midshipman was Meriander. So the victorious Queodharian fleet sailed south in AY 62 to crush their enemies completely. Fortunately they underestimated the reserves of the empire. Most Queodharian units were captured or sunk. After this victory the empire was able to reclaim all those territories up to the Torpes region. The Beginning of the Maritime Trade (AY 62-88) After the discovery of the Isle of Dawn in the expeditions from AY 37-42 this big island had been neglected for many years. In AY 62 the first civilian expedition was started. The Alphatian Sailing Ship Zyklon under the command of Captain Deirdren sailed to Thothia. Deirdren had committed the maritime trade in Alphatian coastal waters for more than twenty years, and now he feeled that he was prepared to cross the ocean. Indeed he was successful in establishing a trade route to Thothia. With this success he founded one of the greatest mercantile empires Alphatia had ever seen. The Isle of Dawn Company later took over more and more ove the island in later years, but the foundation of new colonies did not occur before the beginning of the 5th century when the decline of the poor Thothians became noticeable. The Rise of the Imperial Navy (AY 88-102) Since AY 62 only skirmishes had occurred between Alphatian and Queodharian ships, but now the admiralty decided to start a new campaign. The ships had been improved again, and when Commander Meriander volunteered to explore the hitherto unknown north coast the admirals approved his plan. He got the command over a small sailing ship, the HIMS Iron Golem. The commander discovered the home of the enemies, the big island Queodhar, where he was battled by the Queodharians. He managed to break free and to survive. The entries in the logbook of the Iron Golem are written in a dry style and cannot reflect the pain and hard labour of these weeks. Finally he reached the kingdom of General Zarthurastram where he was brought into the capital to report to the admirals. With the most valuable informations Cmdr. Meriander had brought about the enemy, in AY 90 an expedition was started. Captain Meriander commanded a ship of the fleet which battled the Queodharians, but the real battle occured ashore where Colonel Horken from the Imperial Marines burned down Ystmarhavn, the greatest settlement of the Queodharian jarls. This was a defeat from which the jarls never recovered fully. Surprisingly for everybody the emperor ordered an attack on Rardish in AY 92. Captain Meriander and Colonel Horken both participated in this battle. When General Zarthurastram�s troops distracted the defender, a landing operation occured at the shores of Rardish. Captain Meriander commanded the HIMS Gargoyle, which was the first ship to land it's marines ashore Rardish. Colonel Horken led the marines and conquered the city. After this the kingdom of Rardish had no other choice than to surrender, much to the satisfaction of King Zarthurastram. After defeating the last great nation on the main island, a time of relative peace came to the empire. The army secured the conquered territories, and the civil administration took over more and more of the duties which had been fulfilled by the military administration in the hectical early years. The Imperial Navy committed some explorations and some minor, even two greater naval battles. In AY 93 Lieutenant Lagrius commanded a river boat which followed the Llyn River to the Lake Llyn. There he was driven back by the Yanifeyan raiders from the big inland lake. In AY 94 Lieutenant Hepira discovered the Easthollow River and later in AY 94 Captain Lakim led a small flottilla upwards the Llyn River, defeated the Yanifeyans and founded a naval base on the biggest island in the lake. More naval bases were founded in the next years along the coastlines of nowadays Foresthome, Floating Ar, Ambur and Frisland. The purpose of these bases were to protect settlers and to provide them with supply. Unfortunately, due to the Queodharian threat, this plan did not work. In AY 95 and in AY 100 two counterattacks occured. The first was were beaten easily, but the second, five years later, were a tight fight. Admiral Alanthus died on the deck of his flag-ship. After the death of the admiral his flag-captain, Cptn. Notrion, took over command and led the fleet to a glorious victory, but three bases and over thirty ships were destroyed. Besides, not too many Alphatians were willing to settle in the cold north. So the whole region remained a wilderness for the next centuries, although officially being "Imperial Territories". Finally, in AY 101, a merchantman cast adrift by a storm sighted a great hitherto unknown landmass in the south, and the admiralty decided to send a flottilla into an expedition. The names of commanding officers who left Alphatia in AY 102 are well-known today: Rear Admiral Meriander, Major-General Horken, Captain (later Admiral) Notrion, Captain Lagrius and Captain Alinquin, and Commander (later Captain) Hook. Likewise the names of their ships have become famous: HIMS Bellissaria, HIMS Aaslin and HIMS Alatia. The story of these brave officers and ships is decribed in an article, written by my co-author Cptn. Ebenezum: Expedition to the Great Southland, published in Alphatian Imperial Naval Journal, Sundsvall, AY 2004. The interested reader may read the fascinating story of these events. With the discovery of Bellissaria we want to finish the description of the early years. We hope that we have brought more clearness into those exciting years and that you, dear reader, have enjoyed reading this article. ======================================================================== Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:09:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Albert Edward Capt 552 CSG/SCXX Subject: WANTED I am looking for copies of the following Greyhawk items that people on this list may be interested in getting rid of. I have several D&D items that I'd be willing to trade. WANTED: First List Second List WG6, Isle of the Ape WG7, Castle Greyhawk WG12, Vale of the Mage WGA1, Falcon's Revenge WGA3, Flames of the Falcon WGA4, Vecna Lives WGR1, Greyhawk Ruins WGR4, The Marklands WGR5, Iuz the Evil WGR6, City of Skulls WGQ1, Patriots of Ulek WGM1, Border Watch HAVE TO TRADE: AC2, Combat Shield/Treasure of the Hideous One B6, The Veiled Society M1, Into the Maelstorm MV1, Midnight on Dagger Alley GAZ2, Emirates of Ylaruam GAZ4, Kingdom of Ierendi U2, Danger at Dunwater CN3, Conan: The Triumphant DLS2, Tree Lords DLS3, Oak Lords DLQ2, Flint's Axe feel free to contact me offline at edward.albert@tinker.af.mil ASEO out ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:24:27 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the Minaeans might pose to their "bread basket" in Bellissaria. > First, there has to be a threat to their "bread basket". I've already demonstrated why, logically, there ain't one: If none appears, then none exists. Rather than repeat my previous arguments, I'll just stop here. However, you do obliquely raise another point, regarding Alphatia's economy & how their colonies, such as Bellissaria, fit into it. What do people really think about the nessessity of a Bellissarian "bread basket" to Alphatia? This always struck me as a bit odd - the mainland continent, does it *have* to import food from Bellissaria? Well, that would imply that mainland Alphatia is/was overpopulated and unable to feed itself from its own lands. But mainland Alphatia is populated at "hunter/gatherer" population densities. The other possibility is that sufficient food cannot be grown on Alphatia proper because of poor soil or climate. But mainland Alphatia is mentiond as having very productive agricultural lands (in no small part due to use of magic, such as charms and domination spells, to whip the slaves into fevers of productivity). It is Bellissaria which is noted for not having as good land as Alphatia itself does. Ok, so Bellissaria is mainly rural, full of insular hillbillies and rednecks who dislike outsiders - thus their main product available is likely to be agricultural produce. They export that, to Alphatia itself, so they they can afford to buy the "finished goods" that the motherland produces. Alphatia proper probably (read: almost certainly) doesn't "need" more potatoes, beets, or sheep with strangely mutilated rear ends. But its a way to tie Bellissaria's economy to the Imperial one, and keep them more or less dependent. One could look at it this way: Has the Floating Continent suffered economically since being "removed" from their Imperial trade network? Does any PWA or MA make mention of any dislocation or hardship (or even mild pique) because goods from the colonies are no longer available (and conversely Alphatia itself no longer has an ability to export goods)? Have the commodity markets in Alphatia crashed? No. What about the colonies, any economic hardship or dislocation there? Well, ok, yes: in the 1016 MA, there are some mild signs of one, mainly with regard to Notrion. What does this mean, if we are to take it seriously (and I'm not saying we nessissarily *should*, I'm saying that this is the world as we find it)? It means, in essence, that the Alpher colonies were essentially superfluous from an economic standpoint. And that, for the most part, Alphatia was superfluous to them as well. Clearly, a land mass as large as, and as putatively as agriculturally rich as, and with a low population density as given, such as Alphatia, really has no "need" for an external bread basket (well, there is the possibility that what DotE tells us about the wonderful richness and productivity of Alphatian agriculture is Soviet-style propaganda, that in fact production falls fall short of the image given, and much of what is produced spoils before reaching market, thus requiring imports from elsewhere, but I'm fairly sure that not many would decide to adopt this assessment of what is really going on in Alphatia - the image of the rich agricultural sector prevails). So, given the fact that the sudden dislocation of the Alphatian "heartland" from its colonial "periphery" caused little noticable economic problems (none on Alphatia proper, and only a geographicically limited one on the surface), what do people think this implies about Alphatia economically? IMO, my own opinion is at the minimum it implys that an Alphatian trading network was not very well developed, because otherwise the situation would have caused some serious difficulties, especially among the merchants themselves and upon those who's livelyhoods depended upon such exchanges (either importing goods, or exporting what they produce, or both) - they would have been ruined financially, if they existed, and this would be a very noteworthy occurance affecting much else in a sort of negative spread-effect. This then tends to imply a largely subsistance level economy, where trade of nessissity plays a limited role (not even the elites seem to have been much affected, which means they largely subsist on what their own slaves & servants provide, buying little beyond that). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:31:23 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Knott wrote: >In a message dated 2000-02-10 2:07:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: > ><< Even if we assume that to be the case, there nonetheless remains >>precedent for the Alphatian surname "policy" being a local (or probably= >>not even that widespread) phenomenon as opposed to a national one. Ther= e >>is Ashari Sunlil, for example- she of "Voyage of the Princess Ark" fame= =2E = > > >Of course, we could assume that "Sunlil" was the surname of her mother >(a Heldannic slave). With the exception of the Aendyrs (who followed >Glantrian naming conventions), the evidence for Alphatian surnames does >seem to be inconclusive. Geez- you people really seem to be pushing this "only one name" Alphatian= thing. You're suggesting Ashari would for some reason take the surname of= her mother? Even if Sunlil sounded like a Heldannic name, then she would not = only a) be taking the name of her mother's line (for some inexplicable reason)= , but b) taking the surname of a slave. Seems like a stretch to me- like cuttin= g the pieces of a puzzle to fit the gap you want to fill. But to each his own. How about Baron Lornce N'Jozee, of Ne'er-Do-Well fame? DotE mentions tht = it was his father who founded the kingdom (how that works, given his age in = the PWAs, don't ask me...) and he's got two names. Now, I'll concede that it'= s *possible* his father was not an Alphatian, but given Alphatia's general attitude towards non-Alphatians (and non-spellcasters) I think it's unlik= ely. How about Arbana Jerbat, from Gaz3? She's an Alphatian spy sent by Eriadn= a to watch over Volospin Aendyr? Later modifications to her story aside (I see= m to recall an idea that she was posing as the "real" Arbana, or something to = that effect), according to the original information, she has a given name and = a surname. Or how about Haldemar's friend, Favian Vern? Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, and it m= ay be a popular trend, but there is no more reason (IMO) to believe that it is = the standard, especially given the relatively small sampling of the Alphatian= population (via NPCs) that we've seen in comparison to other nations of Mystara. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:32:43 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just thought of another one- Raman Nabonidus, from the "Voyage of the Pri= ncess Ark." I can do this all day... Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:51:20 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii DM wrote: > >So please, let us know on this forum at least one positive and one >negative comment about the almanac, that's to say tell us what you liked >most and what you disliked, and what you'd like to see. This way we'll >try to improve it for next year! :) Like some others who have already mentioned it, I like the in depth reports on some of the smaller dominions in the Almanac. Keep this up! Instead of doing a write up on the nation as a whole, it was nice to close and personal to a dominion holding within that nation (especially good idea for nations that have been fully detailed in previous Almanacs). [Spoilers may follow for those who have not yet finished the Almanac...so beware] Another thing I liked was the Thyatian thread in the Events section. This could fairly easily be expanded into a full blown campaign! Forget the side adventures! As for something I disliked...hmmm, well that would have to be some of the other Event entries. Take the Nithia thread about a serial killer for example. Nice idea, but the pace was way too slow. Something of this nature (standard find the killer and hunt him down) should move much more quickly (unless of course, this is not the standard "find the killer" scenario). The Rockhome threads didn't do much for me either. Troop movements, and engagements should be a part of a bigger story, and not the entire story by themselves (IMO). It also might be nice to split Outer World and HW events into two sections. It seems that the events rarely overlap (where they do, that's fine) and the OW/HW distinction just gets in the way. First I read something about NACE, then it's Nithia, then Minrothad, then Millenia...!!! My head is spinning! ;-) I think zooming through the world shield so often is detrimental to my mental health. Ok, my rant is over for now. Hope this helps. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:47:33 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Iron Wolf: > > >From a historical perspective, mental asylums were a relatively recent > > development, before that people who acted funny in the Middle Ages were burned > > at the stake or suspected of demonic possession. It's doubtful that Mystara has > > progressed further than the Renaissance in this area, so likely mental illness > > would be equated with magic, and thus cities with magical universities would be > > a good candidate. > >From Jeremy: >I could see > either Reynardey or Bellayne having some fairly primitive mental > institutions. >From Andrew Theisen: > Best as in most helpful? Or best as in most sinister? ;) I say, the more primitive, the better. I bet that mental asylum in the recent "Dracula" movie would already seem modern and state-of-the-art compared to what you guys have in mind. The more sinister, the better... >:) 'Mad Alice' ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:19:09 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <200002111527.KAA02471@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > However, you do obliquely raise another point, regarding Alphatia's economy > & how their colonies, such as Bellissaria, fit into it. What do people > really think about the nessessity of a Bellissarian "bread basket" to > Alphatia? This always struck me as a bit odd - the mainland continent, does > it *have* to import food from Bellissaria? The way I see it, the agricultural land of Alphatia proper is used to grow cash crops--silk, cotton, tea, spices, and other things that are good to have, but which you can't eat. These are then sold by the aristocracy and used to fund their magical research, lavish houses, parties, and food purchases. > Well, that would imply that mainland Alphatia is/was overpopulated and > unable to feed itself from its own lands. But mainland Alphatia is > populated at "hunter/gatherer" population densities. Yep. I am working on a revised Alphatian Empire where the population density is actually believable. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:22:45 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Almanac 1016 survey] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Calvin wrote: > > Like some others who have already mentioned it, I like the in depth = > reports on some of the smaller dominions in the Almanac. Keep this up!= > Instead of doing a write up on the nation as a whole, it was nice to > close and personal to a dominion holding within that nation (especially= > good idea for nations that have been fully detailed in previous > Almanac= s). Thanks! We thought it would be a good idea to do something like this for = those very reasons. It gets tired, rehashing the same old guff every year, and = we might as well use the space to expand on things that (perhaps) were never= touched on before. I think this sort of thing will continue in the future= =2E While we're at it- if anyone has suggestions or ideas of particular place= s they'd like to see developed a bit more, feel free to drop a line here! >It also might be nice to split Outer World and HW events into two >secti= ons. = It seems that the events rarely overlap (where they do, that's >fine) and= the OW/HW distinction just gets in the way. First I read >something about NACE, then it's Nithia, then Minrothad, then >Millenia..= =2E!!! = My head is spinning! ;-) I think zooming through the >world shield so of= ten is detrimental to my mental health. That's a really good suggestion, actually. Like you, I tend to only curs= orily peruse Hollow World entries, but they do tend to throw the pace of Outer World/Hollow World events off. Breaking them up would be a pretty benefic= ial thing. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:20:28 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" > Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, > Well, "DotE sez so" is one justification - but then DotE itself breaks that premise (as you pointed out with the King/Baron of Ne'er-do-Well). As with all things regarding Alphatian people, there's probably no one standard thing: some, if not many, have only one name, while others have two. Some might have more. It seems that in the "Imperial Court" & center of the Empire one name is common (Eriadna, Tylion, Torenal, etc). I'd also say that probably is commonplace in Haven, for example (another "more or less typical" Alphatian Kingdom). But other folk have multiple names. One wonders if this is a regional phenomenon, or a temporial phenomenon (if the former, then it would be somewhat like the above: in some places, people have one name, in others, multiple names. If the latter, then there was at one point one tradition, which is now giving way to another). IMO, it's more *fun* to have multiple names (first and last). Also, here's my take on it (no one asked for it, but no one ever asks for my opinion, but I give it anyhow. How rude!): IMO, it's a combination of regional & traditional phenomena: in the past, on Old Alphatia etc, having one name was the norm. Once the Alphatians reached Mystara, they came into contact with peoples who had multiple names (two or three!). Now, being Alphatians, the concept of adopting such a practice from outlander rustics was just outre'. However, gradually, over time, unconciously, some areas of the Empire began to embrase this practice. First among the "lower orders" (which had more contact with foreigners, and thus were more likely to ape their benighted customs) and in areas that had close/frequent contact with such people. But this was still considered an "un-Alphatian" practice. Thus, among the well bred blue-bloods, this was something that is simply not done by anyone with any taste. However, even that stance is being gradually eroded over time. However, the traditional way is still common among the very highest ranks of nobility (Kings, Queens, the Empress) and in court circles. But now even upstarts like Vern, nobles themselves, have taken this practice of surnames. IMO, this fits in well with most of the Alphatian folks we know of who have multiple names: Sunil's family backround, as I recall, is not high tone (she's a nuvo), Ne'er-do-Well is an unspeakable backwater, it's "King" little more than guttertrash in the eyes of "proper" (read=Arogonsan) Alphatians, etc. This also makes Alphatia seem less static over time: whether they want to or not, they're being infected by the customs of those vulgar Mystarans, and true Alphatian traditions are being lost. Man the barricades! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I am not a proponent of the "high magic = high technology" philosophy, some parallels may be drawn. Keep in mind that, regardless of whether or not demonic possession is real in our world, it IS real in Mystara! And furthermore, priests no doubt have the ability to discern between insanity by natural causes and insanity by supernatural causes. In most cases, the afflicted (whether mental, physical or spiritual) will be cared for by a temple. Now, whether that temple is entropy based or thought based will likely govern the type of care the patient receives. My guess would be that Thyatis would have the "best" mental institutions in relation to quality of care. Glantri would no doubt have the worst. After all, what is the Machiavellian response(read "typical Glantri prince reaction") to an embarrassment (read "mentally deranged mages") that could prove an embarrassing argument for your enemies regarding the importation of clerics? ----- Original Message ----- From: Francisco V. Navarro To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mental Asylums in the Known World > >From Iron Wolf: > > > >From a historical perspective, mental asylums were a relatively recent > > > development, before that people who acted funny in the Middle Ages were > burned > > > at the stake or suspected of demonic possession. It's doubtful that > Mystara has > > > progressed further than the Renaissance in this area, so likely mental > illness > > > would be equated with magic, and thus cities with magical universities > would be > > > a good candidate. > > > >From Jeremy: > >I could see > > either Reynardey or Bellayne having some fairly primitive mental > > institutions. > >From Andrew Theisen: > > Best as in most helpful? Or best as in most sinister? ;) > > I say, the more primitive, the better. I bet that mental asylum in the > recent "Dracula" movie would already seem modern and state-of-the-art > compared to what you guys have in mind. > > The more sinister, the better... >:) > > 'Mad Alice' > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:33:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The DotE is very clear about surnames. On the mainland Alphatian continent, they do not use family names. In the colonies, like Norwold, Isle of Dawn, etc, they do. ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Theisen To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] > David Knott wrote: > >In a message dated 2000-02-10 2:07:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: > > > ><< Even if we assume that to be the case, there nonetheless remains > >>precedent for the Alphatian surname "policy" being a local (or probably > >>not even that widespread) phenomenon as opposed to a national one. There > >>is Ashari Sunlil, for example- she of "Voyage of the Princess Ark" fame. > > > > > >Of course, we could assume that "Sunlil" was the surname of her mother > >(a Heldannic slave). With the exception of the Aendyrs (who followed > >Glantrian naming conventions), the evidence for Alphatian surnames does > >seem to be inconclusive. > > Geez- you people really seem to be pushing this "only one name" Alphatian > thing. You're suggesting Ashari would for some reason take the surname of her > mother? Even if Sunlil sounded like a Heldannic name, then she would not only > a) be taking the name of her mother's line (for some inexplicable reason), but > b) taking the surname of a slave. Seems like a stretch to me- like cutting the > pieces of a puzzle to fit the gap you want to fill. But to each his own. > > How about Baron Lornce N'Jozee, of Ne'er-Do-Well fame? DotE mentions tht it > was his father who founded the kingdom (how that works, given his age in the > PWAs, don't ask me...) and he's got two names. Now, I'll concede that it's > *possible* his father was not an Alphatian, but given Alphatia's general > attitude towards non-Alphatians (and non-spellcasters) I think it's unlikely. > > How about Arbana Jerbat, from Gaz3? She's an Alphatian spy sent by Eriadna to > watch over Volospin Aendyr? Later modifications to her story aside (I seem to > recall an idea that she was posing as the "real" Arbana, or something to that > effect), according to the original information, she has a given name and a > surname. Or how about Haldemar's friend, Favian Vern? > > Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" > Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, and it may be > a popular trend, but there is no more reason (IMO) to believe that it is the > standard, especially given the relatively small sampling of the Alphatian > population (via NPCs) that we've seen in comparison to other nations of > Mystara. > > > Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen > > "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he > didn't exist." - Keyser Soze > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:36:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World In-Reply-To: <00fd01bf74b3$3ef9f5c0$52f317d2@fanavarro>; from fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 11:47:33PM +0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 11:47:33PM +0800, Francisco V. Navarro wrote: > > I say, the more primitive, the better. I bet that mental asylum in the > recent "Dracula" movie would already seem modern and state-of-the-art > compared to what you guys have in mind. > > The more sinister, the better... >:) In the file 'Amadeus' there's a mental asylum that could be straight from Glantri or Darokin. Mention is made of Glantrian Asylums (Mad Houses) in the Hollow World Trilogy (In Nightstorm I think) as well. gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMO, and I know that you have considered this, the writers did not consider the economic effects of moving a continent any more than they considered actually putting some effort into describing the continent in the first place. My suspicion is that Alphatia was moved to get it out of the way. Personally, were I to ever get to the WotI events, I would incorporate descriptions and events of my own that I felt fit the level of economic disaster I believe is reasonable. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Belissaria: the Breadbasket > > the Minaeans might pose to their "bread basket" in Bellissaria. > > > First, there has to be a threat to their "bread basket". > I've already demonstrated why, logically, there ain't one: If none > appears, then none exists. Rather than repeat my previous arguments, I'll > just stop here. > > However, you do obliquely raise another point, regarding Alphatia's economy > & how their colonies, such as Bellissaria, fit into it. What do people > really think about the nessessity of a Bellissarian "bread basket" to > Alphatia? This always struck me as a bit odd - the mainland continent, does > it *have* to import food from Bellissaria? > Well, that would imply that mainland Alphatia is/was overpopulated and > unable to feed itself from its own lands. But mainland Alphatia is > populated at "hunter/gatherer" population densities. > The other possibility is that sufficient food cannot be grown on Alphatia > proper because of poor soil or climate. But mainland Alphatia is mentiond > as having very productive agricultural lands (in no small part due to use > of magic, such as charms and domination spells, to whip the slaves into > fevers of productivity). It is Bellissaria which is noted for not having as > good land as Alphatia itself does. > Ok, so Bellissaria is mainly rural, full of insular hillbillies and > rednecks who dislike outsiders - thus their main product available is > likely to be agricultural produce. They export that, to Alphatia itself, so > they they can afford to buy the "finished goods" that the motherland > produces. Alphatia proper probably (read: almost certainly) doesn't "need" > more potatoes, beets, or sheep with strangely mutilated rear ends. But its > a way to tie Bellissaria's economy to the Imperial one, and keep them more > or less dependent. > One could look at it this way: Has the Floating Continent suffered > economically since being "removed" from their Imperial trade network? Does > any PWA or MA make mention of any dislocation or hardship (or even mild > pique) because goods from the colonies are no longer available (and > conversely Alphatia itself no longer has an ability to export goods)? Have > the commodity markets in Alphatia crashed? No. > What about the colonies, any economic hardship or dislocation there? Well, > ok, yes: in the 1016 MA, there are some mild signs of one, mainly with > regard to Notrion. > What does this mean, if we are to take it seriously (and I'm not saying we > nessissarily *should*, I'm saying that this is the world as we find it)? It > means, in essence, that the Alpher colonies were essentially superfluous > from an economic standpoint. And that, for the most part, Alphatia was > superfluous to them as well. > Clearly, a land mass as large as, and as putatively as agriculturally rich > as, and with a low population density as given, such as Alphatia, really > has no "need" for an external bread basket (well, there is the possibility > that what DotE tells us about the wonderful richness and productivity of > Alphatian agriculture is Soviet-style propaganda, that in fact production > falls fall short of the image given, and much of what is produced spoils > before reaching market, thus requiring imports from elsewhere, but I'm > fairly sure that not many would decide to adopt this assessment of what is > really going on in Alphatia - the image of the rich agricultural sector > prevails). > So, given the fact that the sudden dislocation of the Alphatian > "heartland" from its colonial "periphery" caused little noticable economic > problems (none on Alphatia proper, and only a geographicically limited one > on the surface), what do people think this implies about Alphatia > economically? > IMO, my own opinion is at the minimum it implys that an Alphatian trading > network was not very well developed, because otherwise the situation would > have caused some serious difficulties, especially among the merchants > themselves and upon those who's livelyhoods depended upon such exchanges > (either importing goods, or exporting what they produce, or both) - they > would have been ruined financially, if they existed, and this would be a > very noteworthy occurance affecting much else in a sort of negative > spread-effect. This then tends to imply a largely subsistance level > economy, where trade of nessissity plays a limited role (not even the > elites seem to have been much affected, which means they largely subsist on > what their own slaves & servants provide, buying little beyond that). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:44:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But my dear friend, Ne'er-do-well is one of those satellite kingdoms which DotE takes care of in describing the surname rule. But I like the rest of the points you made. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] > > Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" > > Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, > > > Well, "DotE sez so" is one justification - but then DotE itself breaks that > premise (as you pointed out with the King/Baron of Ne'er-do-Well). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:50:49 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable jdaly wrote: >The DotE is very clear about surnames. On the mainland Alphatian >conti= nent, they do not use family names. In the colonies, like Norwold, >Isle of Da= wn, etc, they do. I don't have access at the moment to my DotE, so I can't say for sure exa= ctly what it says about surnames. Anyone out there have a copy handy? In any case, despite what it may say, there is still sufficient evidence = to support the scenario that surnames *are* in use on the mainland as well a= s colonies. I don't think the brief mention given for names (again, I can't= recall precisely what it says) can and should be taken as a catchall for = an entire nation the size of mainland Alphatia and its colonies. IIRC, it do= esn't say anything in regards to- say, elvish naming conventions among the Shiy= e? Or dwarvish naming conventions among the (Stouthfellow?) And the Shiye, at least, seem to have *very* different naming conventions= from their Alfheim counterparts. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:57:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The way I see it, the agricultural land of Alphatia proper is used to grow > cash crops--silk, cotton, tea, spices, and other things that are good to > have, but which you can't eat. > An interesting concept, but very very *very* inefficient. The thing that makes "cash crops". . .well, the thing that makes them "cash crops" is the fact that one can ship them fair distances and still make a profit. Bulk produce, the daily staples: moving that (in a pre-modern economy, such as Alphatia's), is grossly inefficient. One *can* do it by sea, if one must (but usually such things are state-subsidized/encouraged). But it usually isn't worth it. Moving stuff like grain long distances overland is just begging for trouble, very inefficient because your method of transport is likely to eat more than you end up selling in market. Also, if it were done this way (Alphatia proper growing only the luxuries, with the staples grown in the colonies), then there would have been very significant economic dislocation (unless the Immortals fixed that for them, too, which I guess is possible. I once speculated on the MMB about the hardships the people of the FCA who made their livelyhood from the sea - fishermen and the like - would be facing as a result of the dislocation of the continent, and how as a result people would tend to migrate from the "rim" of the Floating Continent into the interior," the answer that I got wasn't "well, that's interesting, that would make for a good plotline to follow" it was "well, the Immortals just made flying fish for them to catch, so no problem". End of digression, since that was in effect the end of a serious discussion of that topic. . .). Generally, one grows "cash crops" in peripheral places within a merchantilist system, and your staples closer to home. But then the Alphatians were never noted for doing things the efficient way. However, if this is the case, then much like those city officials in late Rome, upon whom their duitys were a burden rather than a benifit, the merchants of Alphatia probably had to be forced or compelled to engage in such unprofitable trade, and are thus likely glad to see it end. > These are then sold by the aristocracy and used to fund their magical > research, lavish houses, parties, and food purchases. > See, I rather tend to see them investing in lands abroad for such things (or perhaps doing a bit of that at home as well - there's plenty of land in Alphatia proper - alongside growing staple crops; but, again, that means the colonial posessions are economically superfluous, and again means Imperial trade would have been underdeveloped: the aristocracy concentrating on self-sufficiency, to sell produce to each other (?) and fund their activities). > > Yep. I am working on a revised Alphatian Empire where the population > density is actually believable. > That leads me back to the "Displacement" thread of the MMB from circa December: if the densities of large places are adjusted, then Mystaran geopolitics is essentially destroyed (goes right out the window), thus in order to make the KW type nations seem significant (rather than being completely insignificant), they need to be "re-sized" (and here I'm not so much concerned with the fate of my own favorite nation, since if the densities of Alphatia are adjusted, then likewise the densities of the Thy areas will be adjusted as well, and can be done so in a way that more-or-less preserves the balance, though it would cause major shifts in the internal dynamics of the Thyatian Empire). In essence, the "8 mile" hexes of the KW nations ("Trail Maps" or what not) might be converted to 24 mile hex scale. But this would really re-shape the continent. So probably the solution then would be "dislocation" - Ylaruam could be put where Sind is, Glantri slid northwards, the Northern Reaches moved into Norwold (and thus much of that made "free" of Alphatia, though it wouldn't matter much to them in any tangible way), and borders all shifted around. If doing this sounds like more trouble than it's worth, you're right 8-). Anyhow, I have my old mails that I posted in the MMB "Displacement" thread, so if this topic takes off I can post 'em 8-). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:04:24 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: >> Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" >> Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, > >Well, "DotE sez so" is one justification - but then DotE itself breaks >= that premise (as you pointed out with the King/Baron of Ne'er-do-Well). >As with all things regarding Alphatian people, there's probably no one >standard thing: some, if not many, have only one name, while others have= >two. Some might have more. It seems that in the "Imperial Court" & cente= r >of the Empire one name is common (Eriadna, Tylion, Torenal, etc). I'd >also = say that probably is commonplace in Haven, for example (another >"more or les= s typical" Alphatian Kingdom). Again, I don't recall for certain what DotE says, but like I mentioned elsewhere (and you seem to concur here) I don't think there's any hard an= d fast rule. Particularly when you look at the handful of NPCs depcited, = "single namers" seem to be the standard, particularly among the magic-usi= ng elite, but there are exceptions (which I've noted). Nabonidus Raman is a mage from Ambur- perhaps two names is a national convention in that country? = Ecbashur Talasar, though a Minaean by birth, is noted to have taken an Alphatian name when he embarked on his new life as a priest of Razud. I t= hink (but can't say for sure) that some mention was made of his temple being i= n Starpoint, which would point to the Ambur connection above. >But other folk have multiple names. One wonders if this is a regional >phenomenon, or a temporial phenomenon (if the former, then it would be >somewhat like the above: in some places, people have one name, in others= , >multiple names. If the latter, then there was at one point one tradition= , >which is now giving way to another). I'd imagine it's either a local phenomenon (like the Ambur possibility ab= ove) or else just a trend. Could even be a class thing- Perhaps, like the sing= le named ruling dynasties (Alphas I-VI, etc.) nobility has taken to just ado= pting a single name as a matter of principle, and some of the lower classes hav= e taken to the trend as well, just so they don't feel slighted. = >However, even that stance is being gradually eroded over time. However, = >the traditional way is still common among the very highest ranks of >nobility= (Kings, Queens, the Empress) and in court circles. But now even >upstarts= like Vern, nobles themselves, have taken this practice of >surnames. That's an interesting possibility as well. Sort of like my class theory a= bove, but in reverse. Reverse snobbery, of a sort. "Noble" nobles who seek to distance themselves from the snooty aristocrats of Alphatian society. In any case, I think it should be like anywhere else, where names are a personal thing. Some families might actually like to leave a legacy among= their children with a surname; some reclusive wizards who never have or n= ever plan to have, children may not care about passing a name on. Whatever. I = don't even recall what started this thread, and I've gotten entirely too overwr= ought over it. Chalk it up to not getting enough sleep last night. :s Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:10:26 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Belissaria: the Breadbasket] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > > I once speculated on the MMB about the hardships the people of the FCA = > who made their livelyhood from the sea - fishermen and the like - would= > be facing as a result of the dislocation of the continent, and how as a > re= sult people would tend to migrate from the "rim" of the Floating = > Continent into the interior," the answer that I got wasn't "well, that'= s > interesting, that would make for a good plotline to follow" it was = > "well, the Immortals just made flying fish for them to catch, so no = > problem". End of digression, since that was in effect the end of a > se= rious discussion of that topic. . .). I must have missed that one. Did someone actually suggest that? Damn... I= 'd hate to be living on the mainland below Alphatia. Just think of all the cleanup- fish poop more than birds, at least based on the fishtanks I own= ed as a kid... Would be interesting to see the flying fish of Alphatia and the flying serpents of Ashmorain compete for resources in the sky, though. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:13:37 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World In-Reply-To: <008e01bf74b5$d59b71a0$6232140a@friendlynet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, jdaly wrote: > After all, what is the Machiavellian response(read "typical Glantri prince > reaction") to an embarrassment (read "mentally deranged mages") that could > prove an embarrassing argument for your enemies regarding the importation of > clerics? "Death by Laboratory Accident"? ;-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield | Designing to Requirements -=> strawberryJAMM <=- | And Walking on Water strawberry@jamm.com | Are Easy if Both http://www.jamm.com/jenni/ | Are Frozen ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:12:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (wasPollResults)]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Whatever. I don't even recall what started this thread, and I've > gotten entirely too overwrought over it. > Chalk it up to not getting enough sleep last night. :s > No biggie, at least not to be. In fact, I'd venture to say it isn't really anything to do with you, or having not enough sleep. I've come to the conclusion that "Alphatia" is evidence of the supernatural in real life: topics that refer to it tend to become overwrought. It's like an Apple of Discord or something. Perhaps Alphaks does exist, any every time a post is penned wherin the word "Alphatia" is used he does his level best to stir up controversy. Or it's just something about that place - the "Burmuda Triangle" of Mystara. The Alphatian topics tend to get more overwrought than any other topic. 8-) (and no, for the Nth time, I am *NOT* Alphaks. Promise. Double promise. But then, if I were, I wouldn't tell you the truth, would I?). . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:19:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Belissaria: the Breadbasket] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I must have missed that one. Did someone actually suggest that? > Yep. I can't remember who for sure now, but I think it was Bruce himself. I prolly have old mail related to that thread since I *still* haven't cleaned out my newsgroup mailbox (since it sends out of a different file than my main mail - it sends out of Netscape). > Damn... I'd hate to be living on the mainland below Alphatia. Just > think of all the cleanup- fish poop more than birds, at least based > on the fishtanks I owned as a kid... > Hadn't thought of that. But if you think about it, it's unintentionally & ironically appropriate: other people get shat upon for the comfort of the Alphatians all the time. (**See note below**) 8-) > Would be interesting to see the flying fish of Alphatia and the flying > serpents of Ashmorain compete for resources in the sky, though. > True. I don't recall the topic getting into what the fish would subsist upon. I guess they'd catch bugs out of the air and eat them. ** "Here, have an Apple of Discord." - Alphaks.** ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:28:17 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Mental Asylums in the Known World] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: >>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, jdaly wrote: >> After all, what is the Machiavellian response(read "typical Glantri >>prince reaction") to an embarrassment (read "mentally deranged mages") >>that could prove an embarrassing argument for your enemies regarding th= e >>importation of clerics? > > "Death by Laboratory Accident"? See- now here's where the Glantrians get it all just plain wrong. The bes= t move is to do as the Blackhearters do and cannibalize your enemy for spar= e parts. :) Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:35:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <200002111800.NAA15851@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > The way I see it, the agricultural land of Alphatia proper is used to > grow > > cash crops--silk, cotton, tea, spices, and other things that are good to > > have, but which you can't eat. > > > An interesting concept, but very very *very* inefficient. The thing that > makes "cash crops". . .well, the thing that makes them "cash crops" is the > fact that one can ship them fair distances and still make a profit. Bulk > produce, the daily staples: moving that (in a pre-modern economy, such as > Alphatia's), is grossly inefficient. One *can* do it by sea, if one must Didn't stop the South doing it. Didn't stop the Roman Empire doing it. Didn't stop the British Empire doing it. Of course, at the Alphatian level of population density in the canon, it probably wouldn't be efficient to do it that way, since there would be tons of space. But then, the canonical levels of population in the Alphatian empire are utterly, ludicrously low. The Ethengar Khanate has a higher population density. > with the staples grown in the colonies), then there would have been very > significant economic dislocation (unless the Immortals fixed that for them, Yes. But I got the impression the moving of Alphatia wasn't thought through very well. > > These are then sold by the aristocracy and used to fund their magical > > research, lavish houses, parties, and food purchases. > > > See, I rather tend to see them investing in lands abroad for such things > (or perhaps doing a bit of that at home as well - there's plenty of land in > Alphatia proper - alongside growing staple crops; but, again, that means > the colonial posessions are economically superfluous, and again means I can't see the lazy Alphatians lifting a finger to hold on to their empire if it was completely superfluous. > > Yep. I am working on a revised Alphatian Empire where the population > > density is actually believable. > > > That leads me back to the "Displacement" thread of the MMB from circa > December: if the densities of large places are adjusted, then Mystaran > geopolitics is essentially destroyed (goes right out the window), thus in Only if Alphatia is united enough to actually throw its weight around, which I don't see it as being. I see it as a Holy Roman Empire in its last degenerate phases; virtually unconquerable from the outside, but totally unable to project that power except in times of desperation or true national wrath (and often not even then). More on that once I finish writing. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:54:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Didn't stop the South doing it. Didn't stop the Roman Empire doing it. > Didn't stop the British Empire doing it. > Two of your examples are in effect identical: the South didn't export staples to the British Empire, and the British Empire didn't import staples from, say, India. The South exported a "cash crop" to Britain, and that's what Britain typically imported from their colonies (and shipped out finished industrial goods as exports, not staples like grain). The Roman Empire did it for the reason I alluded to: they did it (transported grain long distances, by sea) of nessessity (to feed the city of Rome). This was a government-subsidized trade, an "unatural" one, not done on account of its profitability (though various folks took advantage of the situation from time to time to profit at Imperial expense, we can go into that if you'd like). The trade dried up once the government initiative lappsed, thus indicating how economical it was. . . > > Yes. But I got the impression the moving of Alphatia wasn't thought > through very well. > As Mr. Daly put it, though a bit more bluntly. Yes, I'd agree. In part IMO it was because they had a crisis of nerve eventually (just as I think the original intent of the "Thousand Wizards over Glantri" event was to get rid of some of them via the splatter effect, but then they changed their mind at the last second). Had they wanted to, they could have re-visited the situation in the PWAs (II would have been a good time), but didn't. > > I can't see the lazy Alphatians lifting a finger to hold on to their > empire if it was completely superfluous. > Well, then there's a dichotomy between them desiring it for the wealth it brings them, and the lack of impact that losing it seems to have had. How does one square that circle? > > Only if Alphatia is united enough to actually throw its weight around, > which I don't see it as being. I see it as a Holy Roman Empire in its > last degenerate phases; virtually unconquerable from the outside, but > totally unable to project that power except in times of desperation or > true national wrath (and often not even then). > Ok, well sounds interesting, I suppose. IMO it'll probably just give fodder to the people who have adopted the motto on Alphatia's currency for their own, but I guess that's their problem and not yours. Most KW countries get dismissed as a significant geopolitical factor enough as it is. Anyhow, it'll be fun to see. Btw, something that might help you is the Bellissaria Spreadsheet info that Bruce did, aspects of which are on Stan's site somewhere. He ended up putting something like 15 million people there, IIRC. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:07:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For mental insanity & treatments take a look at Geoff's article on the Nightmare Project Home Page: www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/3107/ And please tell me what you think about the page. BTW, Andrew...you should have known, didn't you? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:24:57 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Mental Asylums in the Known World] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Caroletti wrote: >For mental insanity & treatments take a look at Geoff's article on >the Nightmare Project Home Page: >www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/3107/ > >And please tell me what you think about the page. >BTW, Andrew...you should have known, didn't you? Err... yeah, I did. It just sort of... slipped my mind? :p In that vein, I did a writeup for a "Restorationist" kit sometime ago, th= at should be on Shawn's page (http://dnd.starflung.com) which details a heal= er of maladies (primarily energy drains, but also mental disorders). I should r= evise it and accomodate the Insanity rules of Geoff's... Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:24:55 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Albert Edward Capt 552 CSG/SCXX Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey Is there a way to make the entire Almanac 1014, 1015, and/or 1016 downloadable as a single file? As they are now, if I want to print out a copy, I have to do a lot of copy/paste to make a single document out of them. ASEO out ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:23:59 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Flying Fish of Alphatia (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I must have missed that one. Did someone actually suggest that? > Found the mail (mine dated 11/23/98 - it's amazing some of the old crap I keep. OtoH, I can't find really useful stuff): Bruce Heard wrote: > Aah, come on now... in their infinite wisdom, the Immortals could have > provided the good people of Alphatia with a plethora of flying skyfish > big and small, which for some arcane reason never seem to fly higher > than the Alphatian coastline. Your fishermen would not need to emigrate > after all, only learn a new way to catch their fish! :D ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:49:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree, I've been searching for single files for 1015, 1016 AC as well. Should be made available if at all possible. > Is there a way to make the entire Almanac 1014, 1015, and/or 1016 > downloadable as a single file? > > As they are now, if I want to print out a copy, I have to do a lot of > copy/paste to make a single document out of them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:29:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > So, given the fact that the sudden dislocation of the Alphatian > "heartland" from its colonial "periphery" caused little noticable economic > problems (none on Alphatia proper, and only a geographicically limited one > on the surface), what do people think this implies about Alphatia > economically? I don't whether it's canon or not (probably not), but I'd say that not all of the alphatian population was raised back to life in the HW. This would solve the food problem and lessen the impact of Alphatia on the HW. Also, most nations moved to the HW were only partially moved: if the Immortals start moving whole civilizations to the HW, there will be soon an overcrowed HW, and a depopulated OW. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:32:47 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > Dear Mystarans: > > I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known > World? > > No, I don't have a PC that needs to be committed. Just that I might want to > sent my PCs to go find an NPC who was committed into an asylum and pay him a > visit. > > Any ideas? The Kingdom of Herath! Herathian asylums should specialize in split personality and multiple personalities treatment ;) In general, I think that countries with a lot of priests would leave the care of the mentally ill to the clergy, while countries like Glantri would need true asylums, staffed with lay doctors. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Adventure Idea, need a mysterious enemy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting... these Oards look suspiciously like the Borg. :) (The module actually precedes TNG, so I wonder if the designers on Star Trek's team got part of their idea from gaming days? Nahhh...) They're definitely interesting, but they're a bit too advanced for what I have in mind. They're clearly sentient and they'd have wiped out any settlements long ago, if they had a mind to. Thanks for pointing them out, though! IronWolf thibault sarlat wrote: > > If you don't want to have blackmoor intervene in your campaign, then > take the Oards from CM6, I think they would be great.The only thing is > to figure out a reason for them to be there and to guard the place from > invaders. > > -- > Thibault Sarlat > ICQ 16622177. > My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr > Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi > Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, > rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:34:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the best way would be to have them compiled in a single html file and then zipped to compress them the most.Would you like me to do it? (it would take some time of course, maybe a week or two because i don't have just this to do). -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:47:46 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Almanac 1016 survey] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael III Mysteria wrote: >I agree, I've been searching for single files for 1015, 1016 AC as well= =2E >Should be made available if at all possible. > >> Is there a way to make the entire Almanac 1014, 1015, and/or 1016 >> downloadable as a single file? >> >> As they are now, if I want to print out a copy, I have to do a lot of >> copy/paste to make a single document out of them. You might want to visit the homepage of the Mystaran Almanac, then. It's accessible through the links section of Shawn's site (http://dnd.starflung.com). Unfortunately, I can't recall the web address= of the page itself offhand. :p Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:33:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: a new section in my site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every now and then , someone on the list asks for the products that where released by TSR for our beloved mystara.I took upon myself to work on the list made by David Keyser and which is available on Shawn's site but i have added small thumbnails of the covers of the products so that everyone can have a general idea of what they look like. I hope you will all enjoy my work.I intend to add a small description of every product witha bigger pict of the cover but this sort of job will take some time. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:48:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Albert Edward Capt 552 CSG/SCXX Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey I started to do this with the 1014 almanac but stopped at the Hollow World locations because I hoped that there was already a complete word file out there somewhere. It took me about 35 min to copy/paste that much of that particular almanac. I could do the compiling, but I don't really have any way to share the info once I'm done. I'm just going to transfer it to a CD. ASEO out -----Original Message----- From: thibault sarlat [mailto:thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:35 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Almanac 1016 survey the best way would be to have them compiled in a single html file and then zipped to compress them the most.Would you like me to do it? (it would take some time of course, maybe a week or two because i don't have just this to do). -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:32:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/00 9:00:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << Dear Mystarans: I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known World? No, I don't have a PC that needs to be committed. Just that I might want to sent my PCs to go find an NPC who was committed into an asylum and pay him a visit. Any ideas? >> not a bad idea. iirc there is an asylum or two in ravenloft...with some sinister attributes and plans for its wards. for mystara i think that more civilized nations would have asylums to take care of their deranged. less civilized would either lock them away in the basement, abandon them, or kill them for being possessed or something. i think that darokin, minrothad, thyatis, glantri, and alphatia would all have asylums of some form or another. i also think that some families would see the deranged as a family matter and have them safely secured away inside their own homes and estates. however they treat they mentally touched, those running amuck could provide ample material for villains. however you want an asylum or two for a specific reason. you probably already have an idea where you want it placed. for that matter you have the general motive worked out; rescue the held npc. for an asylum i have offered three general types. either can be used as a setting with part of the faculty acting as a secret antagonist. clerical funded/sponsored asylum- a place for lost souls to rebuild their shattered minds without endangering the general populace. they'd probably be in some remote area where the climate and scenery is calming. legitimate asylum- falls along similar lines as the clerical one. may be funded with good intentions by a patron or two and possibly with some government funding. recovery and the safety of others is stressed. they could be located in some rural estate or in a walled estate in large urban areas. wealth is heavily involved in a person being placed here. seedy asylum- this is a facility where the mentally deranged are stockpiled. more akin to a jail than hospital. caters to the lower classes. heavily subsidized by the government. they can be in good intent but limited by funds. or they can be the personal laboratory for some sinister mage or the larder for a vampire. i suspect that you also have established why the npc is held so i won't go there either. as for asylum layout you could actually recycle a map/diagram from any number of adventure modules. if you have the darokin gaz you could use the floor plan of the merchant hall for an asylum estate. you could really use almost any floorplan no matter what it's original intent was. i don't know what else i can offer. you really don't offer alot of info to work from. alot depends on the details of the campaign and the motives for those involved. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:25:29 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Fenswick, Sylaire, Bellayne, Renardie Comments: cc: ironwolf@EWA.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question. Being from the Old World, I don't know much about the Savage Coast. What languages do they speak in Bellayne and Renardie? How are they similar/related to Fenswick and Sylaire in Glantri? And how are the the Savage Baronies peoples related to the Belcadiz elves, at least culturally? Kit Navarro Paparazzi Glantri fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "It's been so much like Glantri here! There's tea and champagne, and pretty senoritas! And the humanoids remind of the New Kollanders, of course. And well, except that everything's just so... red! And I've been developing this strange rash, you see. My skin's turning red and all. I must be allergic to the dust or something!" --a foppish Glantrian, who's touring the Savage Coast for the first time. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:36:18 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <200002111857.NAA16729@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Didn't stop the South doing it. Didn't stop the Roman Empire doing it. > > Didn't stop the British Empire doing it. > > > Two of your examples are in effect identical: the South didn't export > staples to the British Empire, and the British Empire didn't import staples > from, say, India. The South exported a "cash crop" to Britain, and that's Britain did import staples from its empire in addition to raw materials. By the 20th century, Britain was no longer able to supply its own need in foods, and preferential prices for imported wheat and other foodstuffs from the Dominions was part of Joseph Chamberlain's Imperial Preference plan in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. And the South happily produced cash crops and bought food from elsewhere, although in their case, it was only a land connection. While one might choose to see them as a periphery to the North, the South didn't really shrink to periphery status until after the Civil War. > > I can't see the lazy Alphatians lifting a finger to hold on to their > > empire if it was completely superfluous. > > > Well, then there's a dichotomy between them desiring it for the wealth it > brings them, and the lack of impact that losing it seems to have had. How > does one square that circle? > > I think one finds that certain canonical elements just can't hold water. I don't plan to move Alphatia to the Hollow World myself once we get to that point, so I don't know if I'll ever come up with a good rationalization. > > Only if Alphatia is united enough to actually throw its weight around, > > which I don't see it as being. I see it as a Holy Roman Empire in its > > last degenerate phases; virtually unconquerable from the outside, but > > totally unable to project that power except in times of desperation or > > true national wrath (and often not even then). > > > Ok, well sounds interesting, I suppose. > > IMO it'll probably just give fodder to the people who have adopted the > motto on Alphatia's currency for their own, but I guess that's their > problem and not yours. Most KW countries get dismissed as a significant > geopolitical factor enough as it is. Anyhow, it'll be fun to see. Btw, They should be insignificant in comparison to empires which dwarf them. But my PCs love their homelands anyway because they don't care which empire is biggest :) > something that might help you is the Bellissaria Spreadsheet info that > Bruce did, aspects of which are on Stan's site somewhere. He ended up > putting something like 15 million people there, IIRC. > I've seen that; ended up with around 12 million myself, I think. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:37:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <38A47F4F.9671BDA5@libero.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Agathokles wrote: > James Ruhland wrote: > > > > So, given the fact that the sudden dislocation of the Alphatian > > "heartland" from its colonial "periphery" caused little noticable economic > > problems (none on Alphatia proper, and only a geographicically limited one > > on the surface), what do people think this implies about Alphatia > > economically? > > I don't whether it's canon or not (probably not), but I'd say that not > all of the alphatian population was raised back to life in the HW. This It could be canonical; the population figures in PWA II are certainly lower than those in DoTE, and I doubt rampaging Glantrian wizards killed all those folk. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:05:53 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Britain did import staples from its empire in addition to raw materials. > By the 20th century, Britain was no longer able to supply its own need in > foods, and preferential prices for imported wheat and other foodstuffs > *Sigh* PLEASE re-read my original post, wherin I specifically mention "PRE-MODERN" economies. If you want to keep talking about trade in the industrial era, be my guest, but you're using the wrong analogy in my humble opinion. Unless of course people decide Alphatia has steam ships (or even 19th century sailing ships) - any argument is possible at this point, I suppose. Sorry if I seem exasperated at this point. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:10:41 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <200002120508.AAA16516@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > *Sigh* PLEASE re-read my original post, wherin I specifically mention > "PRE-MODERN" economies. If you want to keep talking about trade in the Ahh. Missed that point. Sorry. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:18:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > *Sigh* PLEASE re-read my original post, wherin I specifically mention > > "PRE-MODERN" economies. If you want to keep talking about trade in the > > Ahh. Missed that point. Sorry. > No hard feelings from my end. But I suppose I should ask about something. I try to be as careful in my posts as possible to explain exactly what I mean - writing lengthy, detailed discourses on any topic I involve myself in depth in. Since Alphatia, like most of Mystara, is a "renaissance-era" Civilization I tried to be careful in talking about such economies. But a general problem, which always seems to occur, arose: to whit, I have a hard time getting my points accross, it seems, dispite attempts at exaustiveness (and, eventually, repetition, including often times multiple repetition and what becomes in effect circular arguments). If anything my screeds are usually too long, but I try to state a full opinion to cut down on misunderstanding, but it always seems to happen anyhow. This seems to happen irregardless of which folks are involved in the topic at hand. So it's got to be me, not them (or you). I figure you're a bright guy, a meticulous guy, a historian. So I should probably ask you: What am I doing wrong in my posts and do you have any tips on how I can make my points clearer? Thanks in advance. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:16:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: <200002120521.AAA04968@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > it's got to be me, not them (or you). > I figure you're a bright guy, a meticulous guy, a historian. So I should > probably ask you: What am I doing wrong in my posts and do you have any > tips on how I can make my points clearer? > It comes more I suspect from the fact that since there are time gaps between messages, people forget things. This then leads to misunderstandings. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:50:07 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Alphatian surnames (was Poll Results)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-11 11:36:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << Geez- you people really seem to be pushing this "only one name" Alphatian thing.>> It is not a big deal one way or the other to me, but I will play along for a bit. It turns out that "Champions of Mystara" does prove your point, as I will explain at the end of this message. << You're suggesting Ashari would for some reason take the surname of her mother? Even if Sunlil sounded like a Heldannic name, then she would not only a) be taking the name of her mother's line (for some inexplicable reason), but b) taking the surname of a slave. Seems like a stretch to me- like cutting the pieces of a puzzle to fit the gap you want to fill. But to each his own.>> She would take her mother's surname if her father's name was unknown or her relationship to him was not publicly acknowledged -- that is common even in the real world. And given that she was born a slave herself and at best rose to the status of "Servant" as an adult, she may never have had permission to shed her surname. But given the names of her crewmates, these theories turn out to be unnecessary -- let's just throw her in with her crewmates of "lesser" birth for later consideration. <> Actually he is from East Portage on the Isle of Dawn. Certainly the "no last name" custom does not hold up on the Isle of Dawn, as three of the five Alphatian rulers there do indeed have last names. Of course, this makes the statement about Alphatian names on p. 20 of the "Thyatis" book especially suspect, since from its context I would assume that it is meant to apply primarily to natives of the Isle of Dawn. Throw in the additional evidence from other sources and I am forced to conclude that this bit of information is just plain wrong. <> She is also a Glantrian noblewoman (a Viscountess, to be precise). I think we can take it as pretty well established that all Glantrians are required to have surnames, regardless of where they were born. Presumably if she did not have a last name at the time she was awarded the title of Viscountess, she would have been required to make one up on the spot. << Or how about Haldemar's friend, Favian Vern?>> Exactly where was he born, anyway? We know that at one point he lived in Sundsvall, but I don't recall ever reading where he was born. But never mind -- he is a cleric who probably holds the social rank of "Aristocrat". More on that later. << Really, I don't see any justification at all for this "one name only" Alphatian cultural phenomenon. It seems to be fairly widespread, and it may be a popular trend, but there is no more reason (IMO) to believe that it is the standard, especially given the relatively small sampling of the Alphatian population (via NPCs) that we've seen in comparison to other nations of Mystara. >> We actually do have enough of a sampling to make some deductions, if we include the many people of less than noble rank described in the "Champions of Mystara" boxed set: Alphatian rulers in mainland Alphatia, Bellissaria, Esterhold, and the Alatians always lack surnames, as do some of the rulers in Norwold and the Isle of Dawn. (The case of Siaron Lagrius is a bit suspect, as her surname is that of her kingdom.) Important non-rulers such as General Torenal also lack surnames. However, it appears that all of the Alphatian crew of the Princess Ark except for Haldemar and Tarias (both born to noble parents) have surnames -- and a couple of them are specifically mentioned as being natives of Ambur, a kingdom that is definitely part of mainland Alphatia. My theory would be that in Alphatia going without a surname is a privilege reserved for people holding the ranks of Gentry or of Lord/ Lady and above, and that privilege is rarely invoked in areas of mixed culture such as Norwold or the Isle of Dawn. Clerics generally retain their surnames (or perhaps are given surnames upon ordination if they were actually born without them) and do not give up their surnames unless and until they become ruling nobles. In short, my theory can be summed up as "Any Alphatian without a last name is rich. Any Alphatian with a last name is not a ruler of an area dominated by Alphatian culture." Does this theory leave anyone unaccounted for? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:50:10 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-11 1:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Generally, one grows "cash crops" in peripheral places within a merchantilist system, and your staples closer to home. But then the Alphatians were never noted for doing things the efficient way. >> On the other hand, the geography of the region does not support the idea of Alphatia importing staple food crops the way Rome did. Given its vast land area, it seems likely that mainland Alphatia grows enough food to feed itself, but it probably does not grow enough to be a net food exporter either, and probably does not grow any "cash crops" other than zzonga. However, Bellissaria would seem to be the perfect place to devote to the growing of cash crops, and that would make Bellissaria even more impor- tant to mainland Alphatia in the minds of most of its citizens. Raiders would have a fairly easy time of it if they decided to make life rough for the Alphatians -- all they would have to do is land anywhere on Bellissaria except near a major city and set fire to the crops of barley hops, tobacco, and various herbs used for medicinal and recreational purposes. Repeat that stunt enough times, and word will eventually leak out to the troops in the west -- and morale would certainly plummet if none of them are permit- ted to head east and try to put a stop to those raids before the products of the cast crops have to be rationed. Incidentally, research into the population figures for Alphatia shows both major advantages and major problems for Alphatia. My estimate that they had a 2:1 advantage over Thyatis in terms of manpower was based on the official Alphatian census figures given on the Trail Map -- but Thyatian estimates suggest that the population is at least three times as high, and analysis of comparable regions of Brun suggests that even they are giving a conservative estimate. So if Alphatia ever were fully unified against a common foe such as Thyatis, it would be a figurative 500+ lb. gorilla. However, the fact that the official Alphatian census figure is so low suggests a major weakness of the Alphatian government: if they are unable to count more than a third of their population at most, then there is no way they can draft a significant number of them into their army. The only way they would have any hope of conquering Thyatis would be if a significant proportion of the population were stirred up against it, as indeed appears to have happened in WotI. In addition, the way in which the official census figures from the Trail Map became the actual population figures in the PWAs suggests that the destruction of Alphatia was a true human tragedy: Over 11 million people not counted in the official Alphatian census remained dead when Alphatia was re-created in the Hollow World. Here are the full figures: 1000 AC: Official count 5,800,000; actual count 18,000,000+ 1010 AC: 5,331,000 -- a net loss of 469,000 from the official count and even more from the actual count. Aquas and Floating Ar account for a total of 185,000 people, leaving 284,000 unaccounted for. Presumably most of these others were Alphatian troops who were killed during WotI or left stranded on the outer world. 1011 AC: 5,071,000 -- Is this a correction or a calamity? Either way, it is an additional 260,000 dead. 1012 AC: 5,096,000: A population increase of 25,000 in one year for a population of five million plus is certainly possible. If so, it would be the first civilization that actually thrived from being made a museum exhibit in the Hollow World. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:50:08 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fenswick, Sylaire, Bellayne, Renardie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-11 9:33:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, fanavarro@PACIFIC.NET.PH writes: << What languages do they speak in Bellayne and Renardie? How are they similar/related to Fenswick and Sylaire in Glantri?>> The upper and middle classes of Renardy speak Renardois, a language that is related to but not quite identical with Sylaire. The lower classes speak Lupin. In Bellayne the native language is Rakastan, but no men- tion is made of that language being related to any other known language. << And how are the the Savage Baronies peoples related to the Belcadiz elves, at least culturally? >> I thought I read somewhere that the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves originally came from the region now known as the Savage Baronies. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:07:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > However, Bellissaria would seem to be the perfect place to devote to the > growing of cash crops, and that would make Bellissaria even more impor- > tant to mainland Alphatia in the minds of most of its citizens. > 1) Citizens: their aint none. There are nobles and subjects. No such thing as an "Alphatian citizen". I know I'm quibbling, but it's not an unimportant distinction. 2) It might seem to make it important, but again it doesn't seem to have been: no one on the Floating Continent is lamenting the inability to import stuff from Bellissaria. If it were important, there'd have been major effects upon Alphatia's economy and society. > > Incidentally, research into the population figures for Alphatia shows both > major advantages and major problems for Alphatia. My estimate that they > had a 2:1 advantage over Thyatis in terms of manpower was based on the > official Alphatian census figures given on the Trail Map -- but Thyatian > estimates suggest that the population is at least three times as high, > I go by the figures provided in DotE and extrapolated from the pop figures in PWA (I) for the missing kingdoms ( divide by .90 for most of those to get the pre-war population). If folks want to adjust them, then they can, but then again we can start talking about my (real, not net) version of Thyatis, too: common ground gets tossed out the window and everything gets (re)made up on the fly. People can use Bruce's "Bellissarian Spreadsheet" for that area, and similarly balloon the population of that region, or they can do their own spreadsheet and use figures they come up with. Thus any or no "facts" exist to support whatever someone wants to say at any given time and we don't really have a shared set of assumptions upon which to base a discussion. Double, triple, quadruple, multiply by 10, 20, 100 - whatever one wants to do. But, again, c.f. my earlier remarks about "displacement", because in order to keep the geo-political relationships between the various Mystaran nations roughly what "canon" assumes them to be, if you modify one place then you can (and probably should) modify them all to keep them roughly in proportion. Anyhow, I was basing my argument upon the commonly accepted population figures. If those get tossed out, then ok - things become whatever anyone wants to say they are and nothing difinitive can be said. One can toss out "known facts" (canon) and create new ones to support whatever thesis one wants, but common ground is lost and there is no basis for discussion. On the other hand, if that's what people want: no basis for discussion, just a dialogue of assertion, then that's fine by me. Like O'Brien in Ninteen Eighty-Four we can all float up off the ground like a bubble. 8-) > In addition, the way in which the official census figures from the Trail > Map became the actual population figures in the PWAs suggests that > the destruction of Alphatia was a true human tragedy: Over 11 million > people not counted in the official Alphatian census remained dead > when Alphatia was re-created in the Hollow World. Here are the full > figures: > That's possible, I suppose - but it also means that there was a true human tragedy before WotI, since the DotE figures are lower also (implying a total mainland Alphatian population of around 6 million or so). Thus one can as easily argue that many died of a famine or plague right around AC 1000. Anyhow, I'm missing "THE GODFATHER" while I write this. Back to the movie. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:19:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Site update Hi all, there's now fourth part of the Glantrian Political History added. And if someone is checking those files Giovanni (and I) could use some comments ;) http://sivut.koti.tpo.fi/wallemaki Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:51:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Mental Asylums in the Known World] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > In that vein, I did a writeup for a "Restorationist" kit sometime ago, that > should be on Shawn's page (http://dnd.starflung.com) which details a healer of > maladies (primarily energy drains, but also mental disorders). I should revise > it and accomodate the Insanity rules of Geoff's... > > Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen I'll check it out. Maybe if you accomodate it we could put it on the Nightmare Project Page? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:09:12 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Kit Navarro fanavarro@pacific.net.ph "Of course, the only other person who survived that harrowing = ordeal--and would probaly know about that artifact--was the mage's young daughter, >Alice. Today, they refer to her as 'Mad Alice'..." Who the f&$k is Alice? Sorry I couldn't help myself. Here is somethin we had on a private mail concerning mental assylums: Boldavian Assyllums are the best in the known world! Actualy there is = only one, and it is one of the only ones on Mystara...=20 But the cattle..hmmm the patiants get realy god treatment there! The are fed upon.. hmm fed. And they get to go on tours to all over the = Boldavian dominions! And they all get personnal and intimate care by the = noble families! IM sure Sinaria would have fun there. There is no reason for to try = something silly like... Burning the whole place down. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:10:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Adventure Idea, need a mysterious enemy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why not use Chaos Whelps? They are not intelligent but can cause a lot of problems, are unnatural and could explain why people have avoided the area for a long time. Take a look either at Shawn's site, or at the Nightmare Project site (www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/3107/). A comment on the site, if you ever visit it, is always accepted, as well as useful contributions. Ave! (It's Specularum...it's Speclarmu...is Spec la rmmmhmagggggggg!!!) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:41:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, with a more appropriate History, the "Alphatian History (Revised)" alongside the diligent work of some others who have re-posted theirs recently, I suppose in retrospect I should have realized that a revised population total *is* in order as well. David Knot wrote: > > Incidentally, research into the population figures for Alphatia shows... > Details of how the figures in the chart below were reached follows after it. This means that the total population of the Alphatian Empire is as follows: ALPHATIA: 15,745,072 BELLISSARIA: 8,196,000 ESTERHOLD: 6,330,000 ALATIANS: 981,000 QEODHAR: 562,047 YANIFEY: 214,714 DAWN: 2,314,780 NORWOLD: 7,022,489 TOTAL ALPHATIAN POPULATION: 41,366,102. Bellissaria's population can be adjusted to follow Mr. Heard's "Bellissarian Spreadsheet" (increasing the population of Bellissaria by a factor of 18 - "Old" thinking was that it was 457,000 persons, "new" thinking is that it is 8,196,000 persons. Note that in doing this calculation I discovered a descrepancy in the spreadsheet: Notation #1 refers to the population being "almost 9.2 million people". But the population totals of the individual kingdoms come to the 8.2 noted above. Well, actually, in our Re-Design we should probably end up adopting the higher figure and not the lower figure, but that is something we can discuss. Me, being not-quite-as-enthusiastically-favorable to the HyperNation as I should be, will use the 8.2 million figure). This is only 6.33 Alphatian Citizens per square mile, but I suppose we can be satisfied with it. There are at least two choices in how to follow this precident in other areas: either use the multiple (18) for all populations, or follow the persons per square mile figure (6.33). For Alphatia proper, following the per square mile figure (but boosted because of the presumed higher density of population on the continent itself to circa 8 persons per square mile) produces a population of 15,745,072. This is roughly in line with the trail map precident (of tripling the population), so I suppose it can be followed (on the other hand, following the factor increase would produce a population of around 100 million, and this might be a figure to work with!). The colonial regions should all probably follow the 6.33 persons per square mile figure. Producing the following population totals for each region: Esterhold, 6,330,000 persons; Alatian Islands, 981,150 persons; Qeodhar, 562,047 persons; Yannivey Islands, 214,714 persons; Alphatian portion of the Isle of Dawn, 2,314,780 persons; Norwold, 7,022,489 persons. Of course, no other Mystaran nation's population or size should be adjusted as a result of this revision: the point that must be made is that they are not a significant factor in Mystara, and adjusting them as well (especially those petty nations in the Known World) is thus unessissary. Anyhow, from now on these revised population figures should form the base assumptions for discussions related to Alphatia. Given that, I do withdraw my previous inaccurate, incorrect arguments: you're right, no force on Mystara can stand against Alphatia should it deign to decide to conquer anyone. Luckily for the rest of the world, Alphatians are pacifists and not agressive or expansionistic (recent absorbtion of Norwold notwithstanding). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:26:50 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >It also might be nice to split Outer World and HW events into two sections. It seems that the events rarely overlap (where they do, that's fine) and the OW/HW distinction just gets in the way. First I read something about NACE, then it's Nithia, then Minrothad, then Millenia...!!! My head is spinning! ;-) I think zooming through the world shield so often is detrimental to my mental health. I have to seconed that opinion, John. Although I am a new member of the Almanac team, I was not when I read = the Almanac. This is the way I did it- first I read all of the "Glantri" entries... Then I went thorugh all of the other OW entries. Then I skimmed through = the HW entries as I never did care much for the Hollow World.=20 I think lot of people are interested in either HW or OW. Only very few = campaigns are played on both sides of the worldshield and very few = events effect both of them.=20 So I guess most people whould agree about the need to seperate the = entries. Herve, what do you think about this subject? Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:30:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you have new numbers for the KW too? It is supposed to be high density.=20 I once thought about tripling the populations of Darokin and Glantri, = doubbling Thyatis, Ylaruam and Karameikos. -----Original Message----- From: James Ruhland [SMTP:jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM] Sent: =F9 =F4=E1=F8=E5=E0=F8 12 2000 11:42 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) Well, with a more appropriate History, the "Alphatian History (Revised)" alongside the diligent work of some others who have re-posted theirs recently, I suppose in retrospect I should have realized that a revised population total *is* in order as well. David Knot wrote: > > Incidentally, research into the population figures for Alphatia = shows... > Details of how the figures in the chart below were reached follows after it. This means that the total population of the Alphatian Empire is as = follows: ALPHATIA: 15,745,072 BELLISSARIA: 8,196,000 ESTERHOLD: 6,330,000 ALATIANS: 981,000 QEODHAR: 562,047 YANIFEY: 214,714 DAWN: 2,314,780 NORWOLD: 7,022,489 TOTAL ALPHATIAN POPULATION: 41,366,102. Bellissaria's population can be adjusted to follow Mr. Heard's "Bellissarian Spreadsheet" (increasing the population of Bellissaria by = a factor of 18 - "Old" thinking was that it was 457,000 persons, "new" thinking is that it is 8,196,000 persons. Note that in doing this calculation I discovered a descrepancy in the spreadsheet: Notation #1 refers to the population being "almost 9.2 million people". But the population totals of the individual kingdoms come to the 8.2 noted = above. Well, actually, in our Re-Design we should probably end up adopting the higher figure and not the lower figure, but that is something we can discuss. Me, being not-quite-as-enthusiastically-favorable to the HyperNation as I should be, will use the 8.2 million figure). This is = only 6.33 Alphatian Citizens per square mile, but I suppose we can be satisfied with it. There are at least two choices in how to follow this precident in other areas: either use the multiple (18) for all = populations, or follow the persons per square mile figure (6.33). For Alphatia proper, following the per square mile figure (but = boosted because of the presumed higher density of population on the continent itself to circa 8 persons per square mile) produces a population of 15,745,072. This is roughly in line with the trail map precident (of tripling the population), so I suppose it can be followed (on the other hand, following the factor increase would produce a population of around 100 million, and this might be a figure to work with!). The colonial regions should all probably follow the 6.33 persons = per square mile figure. Producing the following population totals for each region: Esterhold, 6,330,000 = persons; Alatian Islands, 981,150 persons; Qeodhar, 562,047 persons; Yannivey Islands, 214,714 persons; Alphatian portion of the Isle of Dawn, = 2,314,780 persons; Norwold, 7,022,489 persons. Of course, no other Mystaran nation's population or size should be = adjusted as a result of this revision: the point that must be made is that they = are not a significant factor in Mystara, and adjusting them as well = (especially those petty nations in the Known World) is thus unessissary. Anyhow, from now on these revised population figures should form the = base assumptions for discussions related to Alphatia. Given that, I do withdraw my previous inaccurate, incorrect arguments: you're right, no force on Mystara can stand against Alphatia should it deign to decide to conquer anyone. Luckily for the rest of the world, Alphatians are pacifists and not agressive or expansionistic (recent absorbtion of Norwold notwithstanding). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:15:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: The Three- II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AC1014 -Look into my eyes, innkeeper -But sire, we are not sopposed to converse with nobles like that... -LOOK AT THEM!!!! -Oh, of sourse sire. Is the meal to your liking? You havn't touched it. -I will feed later. The three young adventurers that sat here before. Do = you know their names? -Well sire, they were once preety famous in these parts. It is said they = have crossed the border to the dark forests of Taraldara, beyond the = Vyalya elven lands. Are you from there sire? Your accent... -Yes I am from there originaly. What have they crossed the border for? -The farmers of these parts speak of dark creatures in those woods, that = feed on the blood of the living. -And those three, what have they to do with such creatures? -This is quite funny, mylord. The farmers believe that they are herows = who go and hunt down the dark demons. -And you do not beleive those stories. -Oh sire, if I had a lucin for everytime I have heard of an adventuring = party defeating some demon, I would run for the senate. I don't think = they even are any such creatures. They probably killed some goblins or = something. -Oh really? So there has never been vam.. hmm demons running around in = your home town?" -Not that I know off.. the Immortals keep us safe from any such threats = if they exist. -Interesting. So, you do not have their names? -Oh I do sir. The local boy is Dario Pentius, the norse one is Erik = something, and the beautiful black lady is Tenaira. No last names for = the Nuari. It is a real melting pot our country! Those three never leave = eaccothers company! -Yes I am sure they do not. Have you any idea where I they going from = here? -Why yes sire. They have plans of living the country for the highlands. = Buisness they say. -Is that so?! Well someone needs to teach those whelps some respect. -Yes melord. But it is late. All of the other guests have departed to = their chambers. Do you want me to fix you a room? -No. Open your shirt collar. -What?=20 What for, sire?=20 No.. please .. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Morphail (Ohad Shaham) "and crawling on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning..." Last words from the Rocky Horror Picture Show Visit the dark prince of Boldavia at- = http://www.geocities.com/morphail_o/ =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:07:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this wouldn't be a problem for me, i have long hour to kill when working at the university.I'll stick them together and put them on a site of mine so that everyone can download as one single html zipped file. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:34:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you have new numbers for the KW too? > It is supposed to be high density. No. As I wrote, the consensus opinion appears to be as follows: > Of course, no other Mystaran nation's population or size should be > adjusted as a result of this revision: the point that must be made is > that they are not a significant factor in Mystara, and adjusting them > as well (especially those petty nations in the Known World) is thus > unessissary. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:09:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Matthew Wang Subject: Re: 2 HWR notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would like to help with your Hutaaka HWR. What do you have in mind? I have to read up on my Hollow World stuff, but I would love to help in any way. Matt Wang --- Mischa E Gelman wrote: > 1) I'm planning on doing a Hutaaka HWR some time > this year. I only have a > vague idea of what to include and would love > suggestions/input/others to > lend a hand. If you wish to get involved in any > way, just drop me a note > via email. > > 2) The Azca HWR, like the Nithia one, left out stats > for a new item, I > just noticed (after having test-run the setting for > one party already) - > the atlatl is listed as a cultural weapon in the > player's book but no > stats are given (that I can find) for this item. > Were corrections printed > anywhere? > > - Mischa > > Each one of us has our own sorrows...it's no shame > to take them to heart. > The only sin is to forget that others have theirs, > too - Isgrimnur, "To > Green Angel Tower" > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: > http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:21:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [ADMIN] maps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > YOU CAN'T ASK FOR MAPS, THEY ARE IMAGES, > > AND WE KNOW THAT WE CAN'T ASK FOR > > THEM ON THE LIST!!!!! > > Sorry, I thought there were ones crafted by list people, > therefore possibily not copyrighted. That is correct. Maps created by fans are fine. You can make them and post notices about them, and you can ask for them. Maps that are simply scans of the originals are violation of copyright, and thus asking for them is not allowed. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: [ADMIN] If You Have a Problem With Me, Discuss it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone who has been on this list for any real length of time know that I tend to take a hands-off approach to running it. I try to let off-topic posts threads die a natural death before ending them. In many cases other list members will inform people when they have broken rules, and usually I let that be enough. I rarely give out warnings, and I have only banned two people from the list permanently, and I doubt anyone on this list at those times disagreed with my decision. In the last two weeks or three weeks, though, I have had to step in numerous times. This doesn't bother me, really, since occasional flare-ups are not uncommon. But with the latest round of infractions something else has come up. It seems suddenly that people feel the need to make snide comments towards me, hidden behind smileys, or leap onto someone elses post screaming (i.e. all caps) because I commented on a post similar to theirs. In other words, they disgreed with something I said, or a rule I enforced on them, and instead of bringing their concers to the list in a rational manner decided underhanded tactics would be the way to go. Folks, this list has rules. If you want to participlate on this list you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, I am going to tell you to follow them. If you choose then to ignore me, you are either put on review or booted from the list. Some of you are going to think this sounds harsh. " Oh my gosh, what kind of facist is this guy." Before you do, make sure you have read the list's guidelines and rules. Really, do it now. The URL for my site, which has the list guidelines, is in my sig, below. Personally, I don't find anything in those guidelines that is hard to follow, nor do I feel they are overly restrictive. They are not a set of facist rules, but simply guidelines that help to insure a relatively friendly, well-running list. There is one section I would like to draw particular attention to... >>>>>>>>>> Questioning the Admin You would dare question the wisdom of the Admin? That's fine. If you disagree with anything the admin says or does, feel free to either drop him some e-mail or discuss it on the list. You might even change his mind. Note that disagreeing with the admin or starting a discussion on it does not reverse his decisions until he says otherwise. >>>>>>>>>> [note that a similar statement was in the old list FAQ as well] In other words, I am open to comments on my decisions, and have no problem with people discussing my decisions on the forum of the list (or in private e-mail). Most of us are adults here. If you have a problem with something, why not try discussing it like an adult? Hiding comments behind smileys - as if that makes them OK - or screaming at people doesn't achieve anything. It actually achieves the opposite. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:03:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: [ADMIN] If You Have a Problem With Me, Discuss it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2000 12:00:32 PM, malacoda@USWEST.NET writes: <> sorry, i'm not an adult. so i act my age on the list, when i'm not in my persona of course . . . Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher Alter Ego of MHz ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:37:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: [ADMIN] If You Have a Problem With Me, Discuss it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meltheim Shadowstalker meandered fecklessly... > < > why not try discussing it like an adult? >> > > sorry, i'm not an adult. so i act my age on the list, when i'm not in my > persona of course . . . Which is why I said "most". Either way, it is not considered a defense. The rules, including those for behavior, apply to all ages. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "When you die you're free. I had a friend who committed suicide, and she's free now. I talked to her on a ouija board, and she said she was free." November 17, "Wasted" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:22:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Fenswick, Sylaire, Bellayne, Renardie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > > I have a question. Being from the Old World, I don't know much about the > Savage Coast. > > What languages do they speak in Bellayne and Renardie? How are they > similar/related to Fenswick and Sylaire in Glantri? > Bellayne rakasta speak a tongue which should not be related to Fenswick. On the other hand, Sylaire = Renardois. I put up an explanation of this in the Saimpt Cl�bard entry in the Immortal Project. > And how are the the Savage Baronies peoples related to the Belcadiz elves, > at least culturally? > IMO, the Belcadizan came from the same area (Thyatis? Hinterland?) from which the Ispan people originally came from. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:56:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.com:80) Subject: Re: Almanac 1016 survey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:26:50 `ilo ygm wrote: >>It also might be nice to split Outer World and HW >events into two sections. It seems that the events >rarely overlap (where they do, that's fine) and the >OW/HW distinction just gets in the way. First I read >something about NACE, then it's Nithia, then >Minrothad, then Millenia...!!! My head is spinning! >;-) I think zooming through the world shield so often >is detrimental to my mental health. > >I have to seconed that opinion, John. >Although I am a new member of the Almanac team, I was not when I read the Almanac. >This is the way I did it- first I read all of the "Glantri" entries... >Then I went thorugh all of the other OW entries. Then I skimmed through the HW entries as I never did care much for the Hollow World. >I think lot of people are interested in either HW or OW. Only very few campaigns are played on both sides of the worldshield and very few events effect both of them. >So I guess most people whould agree about the need to seperate the entries. >Herve, what do you think about this subject? > Actually, if the events are going to be split up, I would suggest they are split into three sections, not two: Old/Known World, Hollow World, and Savage Coast. Most campaigns take place only in one of those areas, and there certainly aren't many events taking place in one of these areas that have any effect on one of the others. I'm not too much into Savage Coast myself, so mostly I end up skipping those parts, while reading those for the Old/Known World with great interest, and those for the Hollow World with some interest. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:09:53 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-02-11 1:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > > > 1012 AC: 5,096,000: A population increase of 25,000 in one year for a > population of five million plus is certainly possible. If so, it would be the > first civilization that actually thrived from being made a museum exhibit > in the Hollow World. > Not true. Most of them have thrived, since they usually started out as a single city. The Milenians and Nithians each started out in the Hollow World as a single city. The problem is that culturally, rather than numerically, they cannot grow. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: Usamigaras Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Found this immortal in the Mystara Netbook v2. Usamigaras: (Empyreal of Energy); AL TN. In mortal life, Usamogaras was a halfling who, thanks to the effects of a wish, gained the ability to cast spells. He used his new-found power to eventually become the ruler of Cynidicea, plundering the city to enrich himself. Although in life he discouraged the worship of Gorm and Madarua, his predicessors, after he became an Immortal he became their ally and part if their clique. To his remaining few followers, he is considered a patron of healing, messengers, and thieves. I want to know more; does this halfling have Hin worshippers? I never new much about Mystara halflings- do they worship human immortals if they don't have their own patrons? If the Hin has their own race-based mythologies, who are they? I can guess Usamigaras was some self-seeker who stumbled upon a Hollow World civilization (I don't campaign there) and greed told the rest of his story. Anyone have or custom-create information for this one. Faith & Avatars format desired but I will settle for holy symbol description and fluff if anyone knows or has thought up one. -o ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:53:16 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <01BF756E.42830B80@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, [iso-8859-1] =E0=E9=EC=EF =F9=E7=ED wrote: > Do you have new numbers for the KW too? > It is supposed to be high density.=20 > I once thought about tripling the populations of Darokin and Glantri, >doubbling Thyatis, Ylaruam and Karameikos. > Let's look at population densities for these countries (I'm using Poor Wizard's Almanac II) Darokin: 1,250,000 people in 81,900. This is about 15 per square mile. Of course, half of Darokin is thinly populated howling wilderness and swamp. Maybe over half. So I'd say the real population density is probably closer to 30 per square mile in the habitable parts, which for a Renaissance nation is quite reasonable. One could probably comfortably double the population if you let them have early modern agricultural methods. Tripling it, however, would be ridiculous unless they cleaned out the orcs and turned more of the wilderness into farmable land. =20 Glantri: Was 780,000 in 89,713 square miles before the plague during WotI. This is only 8.7 per square mile. However, over 1/2 of Glantri is howling wasteland with marginal human population at best. Glantri isn't noted for food production, either. I would recommend not pushing up the Glantrian population very high, unless either Dwarves move in or Glantrian mages start massively using magic to aid agriculture. =20 Thyatis: (mainland only) 3 million in 42,300 square miles. This is a population density of 70.9 people per square mile, the highest in the Known World. When one factors in how much of mainland Thyatis is mostly useless mountains, one gets an even higher density. I would strongly recommend against increasing Thyatian population, as it is the highest in the Known World. =20 Karameikos 331,000 in 46,750 square miles. This is a population density of 7.1 per square mile. Given some 2/3rds of the country is howling wilderness, this reflects a reasonable population density for settled areas. You could probably double or triple this IF you want to have more of the wilderness be settled. Otherwise, the settled areas will become overcrowded. Ylarum 230,000 in 54,180 square miles. This is four people per square mile. This seems dinky, except that most of the country is either poorly watered hills or desert. Most of the population in the rural areas lives as pastoralists, which can only support 1 person per square mile at best in such terrain. However, if the Dream of the Desert Garden begins to come to pass, Ylarum's population could grow tremendously. I would certainly recommend strongly against tripling it; desert nations just can't support huge numbers of people. (Note that Sind only has 600,000 in 200,000 square miles, with a far better not-desert to desert ratio) Most of these countries have low population densities because they are full of large chunks o' howling wilderness. If you want to raise the population, you need to de-howl the wilderness. =20 John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas = =20 ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu =20 rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job=20 it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected=20 from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day,=20 but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product.=20 I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:02:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Let's look at population densities for these countries (I'm using > Poor Wizard's Almanac II) > This is why, IMO, if one is going to "adjust" upwards the population of a given area (say, Alphatia), then one needs to similarly "adjust" the areas of the KW nations, so that they do not lapse into irellivance, and so that the geopolitical dynamic of Mystara is preserved - so that every nation's population & presumed geopolitical influence remains roughly in proportion to what exists in "canon". OR One could radically decrease the size of certain areas, so that the populations that are given for them create realistic densities (adjusting certain regions so that the hexes are assumed to be 8 mile hexes rather than 24 mile hexes would fullfill this, especially since most of the regions often in question are islands, and "downsizing" them in this fashion wouldn't contort continents) - one would just have more sea around them. Making them smaller in size but keeping the current population (the "canon" population) hardly erodes their presumed power, which is already as great if not greater than any other nation in the Mystaran community of nations. Otherwise, the "fix" is more absurd than the "cure", because you put in one nation more people than are in the entire total "canon" populations of known nations on both the surface and in the hollow world. The totals I gave should demonstrate that. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:08:37 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002120944.EAA05759@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > Details of how the figures in the chart below were reached follows after > it. > This means that the total population of the Alphatian Empire is as follows: > > ALPHATIA: 15,745,072 > BELLISSARIA: 8,196,000 > ESTERHOLD: 6,330,000 > ALATIANS: 981,000 > QEODHAR: 562,047 > YANIFEY: 214,714 > DAWN: 2,314,780 > NORWOLD: 7,022,489 > The figures for Dawn, Bellissaria, and Alphatia proper here are good, with the others, I would argue a much lower population. Esterhold is mostly occupied by nomadic Jennites or thinly populated mountains except for the two settled regions, and thus should have a much lower population per square mile than the three civilized zones. The Yanifey are populated by fishermen, and much of the land remains largely unexploited. Pop. density should be lower. Norwold is 90% howling wilderness, and settlement has only been going on a few decades. I think the canonical figures for Norwold are quite fine under the circumstances, and maybe even too high. Actually, I need to go look at the Alatians again before I comment on them... The hardest part of building population estimates is that 1 square mile of country X is not necessarily equal to country Y; some countries have a lot more terrain which forces low population densities than others. I hope to finish my figures soon... > 6.33 Alphatian Citizens per square mile, but I suppose we can be Which is still less than 1/10th the population density of Thyatis :) > satisfied with it. There are at least two choices in how to follow this > precident in other areas: either use the multiple (18) for all populations, > or follow the persons per square mile figure (6.33). Choice 3: Adjust for civilization level and terrain type. Which requires a lot of work; which is why my demographic work is coming slowly. (Hulk count hexes until brain pours out of ears) > Of course, no other Mystaran nation's population or size should be adjusted > as a result of this revision: the point that must be made is that they are > not a significant factor in Mystara, and adjusting them as well (especially > those petty nations in the Known World) is thus unessissary. > Sarcasm is a waste of time. Of course, since most PCs are not ruling entire nations and directing geopolitics, it doesn't matter to them who is the most powerful nation. I'll just say what I've said before, which is that the canonical population figures for Alphatia are ridiculous, that Alphatia ought to be able to at least manage the population density of Karameikos, let alone something reasonable...It's 9 times the size of Medieval France, with half the population. But I hope to have my revised figures out soon, once I get more free time. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:10:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Usamigaras In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000213003742.00998b60@pop.uky.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Oliver wrote: > Found this immortal in the Mystara Netbook v2. > > > Usamigaras: (Empyreal of Energy); AL TN. In mortal life, Usamogaras was a > halfling who, thanks to the effects of a wish, gained the ability to cast > spells. He used his new-found power to eventually become the ruler of > Cynidicea, plundering the city to enrich himself. Although in life he > discouraged the worship of Gorm and Madarua, his predicessors, after he > became an Immortal he became their ally and part if their clique. To his > remaining few followers, he is considered a patron of healing, messengers, > and thieves. > > > I want to know more; does this halfling have Hin worshippers? I never new > much about Mystara halflings- do they worship human immortals if they don't > have their own patrons? If the Hin has their own race-based mythologies, > who are they? > They worship 'The High Heroes', whoever those are. I assume they have their own pantheon, but the Five Shires book doesn't say who. > I can guess Usamigaras was some self-seeker who stumbled upon a Hollow > World civilization (I don't campaign there) and greed told the rest of his > story. Anyone have or custom-create information for this one. Faith & > Avatars format desired but I will settle for holy symbol description and > fluff if anyone knows or has thought up one. > Cyndicea is underground, but not in the Hollow World. It's from one of the early Basic modules. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:09:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Usamigaras MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I want to know more; does this halfling have Hin worshippers? I never new > much about Mystara halflings- do they worship human immortals if they don't > have their own patrons? If the Hin has their own race-based mythologies, > who are they? > Actually, that's a good question (if I were to be sardonic, I'd say that they worship Chauntea and Mystra - not Mystara - given the author of "The Five Shires" Gaz. - but I won't). There doesn't seem to be any "official" materiel describing the Hin faith. I'd say that in the Shires themselves, Ilsundal might have some following (given the region's history & the influence the local Elves had on the Halflings there), but the most important Immortals are probably Terra, Djaea, Zirchev (perhaps, prolly in a minor way), Ordana (fairly major), Usamigaras (a natural), and Korotiku. Just a rough guess, though. > I can guess Usamigaras was some self-seeker who stumbled upon a Hollow > World civilization (I don't campaign there) and greed told the rest of his > story. > Actually, Usamigaras appeared in the module B4 as a patron of the Cynidiceans - he isn't noted as having a presence in the HW though I suppose it's possible he has a following there. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:29:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-12 8:33:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, ohadshm@INTER.NET.IL writes: << Given that, I do withdraw my previous inaccurate, incorrect arguments: you're right, no force on Mystara can stand against Alphatia should it deign to decide to conquer anyone. Luckily for the rest of the world, Alphatians are pacifists and not agressive or expansionistic (recent absorbtion of Norwold notwithstanding). >> The idea that Alphatia is "not aggressive or expansionistic" is laughable -- I can name several Mystaran peoples such as the Jennites who would strongly disagree with that statement. However, it might be more to the point to say that they cannot use their vast population and resources because they are too disorganized to even count them accurately, let alone make full and efficient use of them. On the other hand, the population figures for Thyatis seem to be accurate, although the decline from 3,200,000 in 1000 AC to 2,700,000 in 1012 AC definitely goes a long way towards explaining the problems they suffered from in the years covered by the PWAs. Furthermore, the meticulousness of Thyatian record keeping leaves much less margin for error than we find in the Alphatian population figures. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:32:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130704.CAA31823@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > Let's look at population densities for these countries (I'm using > > Poor Wizard's Almanac II) > > > This is why, IMO, if one is going to "adjust" upwards the population of a > given area (say, Alphatia), then one needs to similarly "adjust" the areas > of the KW nations, so that they do not lapse into irellivance, and so that The KW nations have reasonable population densities. Alphatia does not. The key thing is that of the major KW nations, only Thyatis has any regular dealings with Alphatia; outside of War of the Immortals, Alphatia normally is very rarely involved in the politics between the nations of the Known World. It is a self-absorbed, isolationist nation, and its wars with Thyatis are largely ignored by most Alphatians. It is a sleeping giant...and given it's a slave state, it has to be. I see it, like Rome, facing the fundamental problem that wealthy, lazy citizens don't want to fight in foreign wars, and don't want to pay the taxes to fund a large army...after all, who can attack us? And why waste our time conquering other nations, when we have everything we need at home? So they hire large, but not very impressive mercenary armies and play the barbarians off against each other. I've also, for my game, taken the Alphatian army stats from PWA II and thrown them down the toilet; they're ridiculously powerful, especially since Alphatia doesn't fight enough wars to justify the expense. Let's take a reserve division: The second regiment has 1000 1st level mages. It costs 500 GP/per week/per mage in wages for these people. That means, it costs 500,000 GP per week, or 24 million gold pieces per year to employ 1 regiment of 1 reserve division. Oh, let's not forget the officers. 30 M2 at 1000 GP/week, and 1 captain at 1500 GP per week. That adds up to...25,512,000 GP for 1 regiment of 1 reserve division. Alphatia allegedly has 34 of these babies. That's 867,408,000 GP for only 1/10th of Alphatia's reserve forces. Probably the most expensive tenth, mind you. So, I've massively downgraded Alphatia's army because I can't believe Alphatia can afford it without utter bankruptcy. And because I don't see Alphatians paying the taxes to support an army commensurate with their size unless it was necessary. Thyatis does not hold off Alphatia based on size; it wins because Alphatians don't care enough about military matters, unless pressed too far, to actually exert themselves. This is why Thyatis has been able to stalemate Alphatia so long; the Thyatians ARE militaristic, they have superior quality troops, and they can more efficiently use the power they have. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:31:57 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > > The figures for Dawn, Bellissaria, and Alphatia proper here are good, with > the others, I would argue a much lower population. > > Which is still less than 1/10th the population density of Thyatis :) > See, then if one is being "realistic", there is no reason for Esterhold (controlled for 800 years by Alphatia) or even Norwold to have a lower population density - Nor Qeodhar or Yannifey. They can hardly be considered "overpopulated" at 6.33 persons per square mile, can they? In any case, my "figures" lowballed the "now presumed" population of Alphatia proper: tripling the trail map figure would give a population of 17.4 million for the mainland (roughly 8.8 persons per square mile, based on the area given in the PWAs). > Sarcasm is a waste of time. Of course, since most PCs are not ruling > entire nations and directing geopolitics, it doesn't matter to them who is > the most powerful nation. > Then neither does it matter to adjust them, if geopolitical considerations are irrelivant. In fact, much of not most of the discussions on this list consist of arguments over geopolitics, not adventures. Population totals don't matter to wandering adventurers, either - and yet modifying them on behalf of one nation seems to be of great importance none the less. Why? Realism? This is a fantasy world to begin with. Calm, rational, explanatory posts were fruitless in demonstrating the point: thus satire (not sarcasm) was used - the entire idea of 41 million in one nation, which, as I mentioned in another post recently submited, is a greater total than the "canon" figures for all known Mystaran nations (both surface and hollow world, and including this particular one), should make the point itself. I doubt anyone is going to go through the entire series of PWAs and "adjust" the populations of every region described (or does anyone want to vollenteer for that?) for the sake of "realism" - so what we're talking about is, in essence, doing it for one nation only (as shown by the fact that when I earlier suggested that for sake of keeping the geopolitical balance, KW areas & pops should likewise be adjusted, but that was dismissed as unessissary). Thus, why do it at all for Alphatia if it is not going to be done for, say, Davania? Minaea? Milenia in the Hollow World? If other nations aren't going to be "adjusted" so that their population and power is made more appropriate for their real world equivilents? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:40:31 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The KW nations have reasonable population densities. > Alphatia does not. > Ok - simply adjust the size of Alphatia to fit the population, creating more appropriate densities. It's not as if Adventurers can explor every nook and cranny in a 2 million square mile area, anyhow (to make no mention of exploring the other couple million square miles) - so why not just reduce the size? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:54:49 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Thyatis does not hold off Alphatia based on size; it wins because > Alphatians don't care enough about military matters, unless pressed too > far, to actually exert themselves. This is why Thyatis has been able to > stalemate Alphatia so long; the Thyatians ARE militaristic, they have > superior quality troops, and they can more efficiently use the power they > have. > You've seen the debates on the MML, right? Most people think a 2:1 population advantage is decisive, so why increase it more? Furthermore, it isn't as if the Alphatians aren't interested in expansionistic (in fact, in recent Mystaran history, they expanded into a region greater in area than the entire Thyatian Empire - Norwold, invaded in AC 985) - so they do "exert themselves". Their inability to conquer Thyatis in AC 959-60 wasn't for a lack of trying, IMO. IMNSHO, radically increasing the Alphatian population creates a vastly different dynamic than is described in DotE and elsewhere. Alphatia is a fractious society, to be sure, not a unitary one - and this is one reason why Thyatis, much smaller in size and population, has held them off for a thousand years. It wasn't (at least as described in DotE) because the Alphatians don't care to exert themselves, aren't interested in conquering places (they are indeed very interested in conquering everything they can, at least on an Imperial level - and it's odd to say that for an entire millenium they haven't simply because of a lack of interest in exerting themselves, since they *have* exerted themselves). Multiplying their population by 5, which is what is in essence under consideration here, seems inapropriate. As for population densities: the next suggestion will be to radically decrease Thyatis' population, because the density is unrealistically high - however, the reason that was done was because the designers desired to portray two rival Empires, not one super-Empire with no peer. It was too late, given the map of the KW that they had stuck themselves with (from X1), to "re-size" the Thyatian mainland, so they made it unrealistically densely populated, and left Alphatia unrealistically lightly populated. Similarly, the populations of the other KW nations give them some role & position in the international arena (of course, as I explained earlier, population is not the only, or even most decisive factor, in determining a nation's relative power, but it is one, and it is often the one most used by people on this list, dispite examples of how it isn't a sole factor such as the one I made some time ago). Changing those factors cannot be done while simoultaniously saying that nothing important changes as a result of doing so. That, at least, is my strongly held opinion. Anyhow, I've said my piece. Next time, something more fun & humorous will follow 8-). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:12:47 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:32 AM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: > >I've also, for my game, taken the Alphatian army stats from PWA II and >thrown them down the toilet; they're ridiculously powerful, especially >since Alphatia doesn't fight enough wars to justify the expense. I've done the same, at least in certain areas. Blackheart, notably, has (according to the PWAs) a much larger army than it should. Frankly speaking, Blackheart shouldn't have *any* army at all- it's little more than a city state (and that's being generous). The stats listed for Blackheart's army I count as Mercenary forces that the Imperial Army can hire if needed. And speaking of population densities, take a look at the kingdom of Stonewall. 15,963 square miles of space with a population of 1,600,000 (pre-WotI). 100 people per square mile!!! ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:17:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130743.CAA17665@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:40 AM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: >> >> The KW nations have reasonable population densities. >> Alphatia does not. >> >Ok - simply adjust the size of Alphatia to fit the population, creating >more appropriate densities. It's not as if Adventurers can explor every >nook and cranny in a 2 million square mile area, anyhow (to make no mention >of exploring the other couple million square miles) - so why not just >reduce the size? Or you could use the figures as presented, realize that there is a massive amount of space in mainland Alphatia that is being unused, and quickly come to realize why it is that Alphatia hasn't gone out and taken over the entire world- they don't even have their own continent under control, even after 2,000 years. Maybe there's something in the water that causes sterility? Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent that are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? And the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep the rest of the world from discovering this? :) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:14:55 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Usamigaras MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 1:36:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, obbing0@POP.UKY.EDU writes: << I want to know more; does this halfling have Hin worshippers? I never new much about Mystara halflings- do they worship human immortals if they don't have their own patrons? If the Hin has their own race-based mythologies, who are they? >> Usamigaras has a very small core of followers in Cynidicea. According to Gaz 8, the Hin worship the "High Heroes", who consist of the Immortals "Nob Nar, Coberham Shadowglint, and Brindorhin" (p. 19 of Player's Booklet). I have seen no further information about these Immortals. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:14:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 2:05:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << This is why, IMO, if one is going to "adjust" upwards the population of a given area (say, Alphatia), then one needs to similarly "adjust" the areas of the KW nations, so that they do not lapse into irellivance, and so that the geopolitical dynamic of Mystara is preserved - so that every nation's population & presumed geopolitical influence remains roughly in proportion to what exists in "canon". >> On the other hand, since Alphatia is the only nation whose population seems to be on the absurdly low side and we have in the Trail Maps an official census figure that is clearly way too low, we have an easy expla- nation as to why Alphatia has not been able to throw its weight around more than it has. The mere fact of being unable to count more than a third of so of their population suggests that the central Alphatian govern- ment has a very loose grip on its subjects. We are already aware of numerous problems that Eriadna would face in getting the kings and queens subordinate to her to cooperate in any foreign war -- if we com- pound those problems with the fact that she cannot even confirm the existence of at least two thirds of her subjects, we can see that it took considerable favorable Immortal intervention to stir up enough of the Alphatian populace against Glantri and Thyatis for her to get as far as she did in the War of Wrath. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:21:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130757.CAA06541@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:54 AM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: > >IMNSHO, radically increasing the Alphatian population creates a vastly >different dynamic than is described in DotE and elsewhere. Alphatia is a >fractious society, to be sure, not a unitary one - and this is one reason >why Thyatis, much smaller in size and population, has held them off for a >thousand years. It wasn't (at least as described in DotE) because the >Alphatians don't care to exert themselves, aren't interested in conquering >places (they are indeed very interested in conquering everything they can, >at least on an Imperial level - and it's odd to say that for an entire >millenium they haven't simply because of a lack of interest in exerting >themselves, since they *have* exerted themselves). More and more, I'm coming to truly believe that the Imperial throne is a crock, and that the Alphatian "Emperor" really is little more than a mediator between autonomous monarchs on the mainland. And that the Grand Council exists almost exclusively for the function of making sure that no one Emperor can pull a "Caesar" and try to change the functioning of Alphatian society as it exists. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:35:31 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <42.1a3ff18.25d7c200@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:14 AM 2/13/00 EST, David Knott wrote: > >On the other hand, since Alphatia is the only nation whose population >seems to be on the absurdly low side and we have in the Trail Maps an >official census figure that is clearly way too low, we have an easy expla- >nation as to why Alphatia has not been able to throw its weight around >more than it has. The mere fact of being unable to count more than a >third of so of their population suggests that the central Alphatian govern- >ment has a very loose grip on its subjects. We are already aware of >numerous problems that Eriadna would face in getting the kings and >queens subordinate to her to cooperate in any foreign war -- if we com- >pound those problems with the fact that she cannot even confirm the >existence of at least two thirds of her subjects, we can see that it took >considerable favorable Immortal intervention to stir up enough of the >Alphatian populace against Glantri and Thyatis for her to get as far as >she did in the War of Wrath. Exactly. Not to mention other salient and telling bits of information- 1) The Haven Wall (between Haven and Vertiloch)- Probably a legacy of the time when Aasla created a kingdom for all races (as opposed to merely the "pure" Alphatians of Kerothar I). Likely wars broke out between the two then, prompting the building of the wall, but perhaps there remains discontent between Vertiloch and Haven? 2) The Randel Wall (between Randel and Theranderol)- Like #1, this seems obvious that there is/was some discontent (and massive) between the two nations. 3) The Randel and Bettelyn lines- Damn! Randel is a real pain in the ass, it looks like. Someone needs to keep an eye on them! 4) The forts between Theranderol and Arogansa- Looks like all that revenue from the tourist trade is going into the pockets of Arogansa's military! 5) The massively underpopulated central regions of Alphatia- Blackheart (a blight on the landscape, and virtually unpopulated); Shiye-Lawr (barely manned by notoriously independent elves); the Imperial Territories (completely empty. You could throw a nuke and not hit anyone.) Combined with this lack of people comes the difficulty of maintaining contact with the northern kingdoms beyond- they're distant enough that they are probably incredibly independent. Yep... seems to me the Emperor of Alphatia is little more than a figurehead, and that the "Empire" of Alphatia is an Empire in name only (but with excellent PR). The individual kingdoms are on the whole larger than in the Known World, but they seem to me to be just as autonomous (and possibly moreso- wonder what kinds of baronies, counties, etc. they've got inside at odds with one another...?) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:36:07 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > More and more, I'm coming to truly believe that the Imperial throne is a > crock, and that the Alphatian "Emperor" really is little more than a > mediator between autonomous monarchs on the mainland. And that the Grand > Council exists almost exclusively for the function of making sure that no > one Emperor can pull a "Caesar" and try to change the functioning of > Alphatian society as it exists. > True, but one doesn't have to multiply Alphatia's population several times to come to believe something like that. IMO, Alpher Kingdoms fight each other often (John Walter Biles's analogy to the Germanic Empire of the Middle Ages is apt, though it isn't dependant upon having a huge population) - but unfortunately we've never seen that in any tangible way (one time when it would have been highly appropriate for this fractiousness to become evident was when Alphatia was placed in the HW - But the PWA events, unfortunately, portray a rather unified Empire wherin the Empress gives orders and the Kings & Queens in effect act as her functionaries in carrying them out - they may disagree personally, but they are portrayed as loyal "cabinet officers" none the less). It'd make the Floating Continent much more. . .lively. . .if they were fractious and didn't take orders well. Also, the ideas you had in your previous post were interesting - I also always saw Alphatia as having huge areas of undeveloped wilderness (which explains the low population). I hadn't thought of having independant/unsubjegated nations/Kingdoms within it, and I doubt anyone will go for that idea. But it *would* be better than making the place a densly populated area under a single people - keep the Alphatian population the same, and throw in all sorts of other folks to make up the difference if one thinks the densities are too low (I doubt this option will be taken, however) - one could put in monsterous regions, which would certainly enliven the place greatly (more than just loyal Limn, I mean). Fracturing the place like *that* however, filling it with a lot of independant foreigners, is unlikely to become widely popular, though. Hmmmn. . .judging by recent discussions, there does seem to be widespread disatisfaction with the Alphatia that was portrayed in DotE, even among people who like it best (one could almost say *especially* among people for whom Alphatia is their favorite nation). Perhaps what we need is an "Alphatia Re-Design Project" to comprehensively fix it? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:42:08 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > At 03:14 AM 2/13/00 EST, David Knott wrote: > > > >On the other hand, since Alphatia is the only nation whose population > >seems to be on the absurdly low side and we have in the Trail Maps > Trail maps came out before DotE, right? I use the populations in DotE, these are the "official" figures - those and the ones in the PWAs (which reflect various losses, and thus for the "missing" kingdoms need to be multiplied by .90 to get the pre-war population). The "TSR Rule of thumb" is that when there is a discrepancy, subsiquent materiel (the most recent materiel) takes precident over older materiels (especially stuff published before Alphatia was described in detail in a Gazeteer). The "official" figures can be found in the DM's Sourcebook of DotE - these figures are not "census" data, they are "from the DM's point of view" data - in other words, accurate information for the DM, not "as the Alphatians know it" information of debatable accuracy. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:08:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Usamigaras In-Reply-To: <2b.1d2a418.25d7c1ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > According to Gaz 8, the Hin worship the "High Heroes", who consist of > the Immortals "Nob Nar, Coberham Shadowglint, and Brindorhin" (p. 19 > of Player's Booklet). I have seen no further information about these > Immortals. It has been hypthesized that these High Heroes are the ones who grant the Hin Masters their powers. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:17:29 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Skothar: Alphatia's forgotten eastern front MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Immortal patron of the Minaeans are less likely to be someone like > Razud and more likely to be the typical trio of Traldaran Immortals (Halav, > Petra, and whatsisname). They were indifferent to WotI, apparently. An > whatsisname = zirchev mortus . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:43:24 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Thonia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Facing a threat together might be a > way to throw them together (though I still wonder if the Jennites wouldn't > tend to see even an invading Thonia as a liberator of sorts, given what > happened. take a look at real world history and you can see how this type of situation might play out for example during ww2 in ireland there were elements working to bring the germans into ireland so that they had another avenue of attack against the british. some because they were pro nazi others simply because they hated the british so much. on the other hand there were other elements trying to keep both sides from invading ireland. now granted unlike the esterhold jennites we had broken from the british empire already but we were still only a fledgeling state, 20 odd years old. but if you look back even further, in 1798 the french sent troops to ireland to "help free their republican irish brothers"(a common ground) this failed, but the main reason for it was napolean wanted to weaken britain and either gain an ally or conquer ireland himself in the guise of a liberator. hopefully this helps figure out the thonian/esterhold situation. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:01:30 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Francisco V. Navarro > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Mental Asylums in the Known World > Date: 11 February 2000 01:54 > > Dear Mystarans: > > I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known > World? > > No, I don't have a PC that needs to be committed. Just that I might want to > sent my PCs to go find an NPC who was committed into an asylum and pay him a > visit. > > Any ideas? > > :) > > Kit Navarro > fanavarro@pacific.net.ph > "Of course, the only other person who survived that harrowing ordeal--and > would probaly know about that artifact--was the mage's young daughter, > Alice. Today, they refer to her as 'Mad Alice'..." > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. how about glantri the entire country is mad, well at least in the campaign i ran there they seemed to be, mind you the same seems to have been the case in my tharian campaign, in fact in all my campaigns, maybe it's just my players ... maybe it's me. quick somebody find the best mental institutes.. i think i need one 8-) mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:16:51 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Adventure Idea, need a mysterious enemy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "It's Specularum, damn it! On a different subject... does anyone else think > Isodore d'Amberville is hot? ... ... Stop looking at me like that." > no but dolores hillsbury is . mortus. well i did say i might need one of those mental institutions 8-) . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Real stupid question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, this is a really minor, slightly off-topic question, but it's been wandering my mind for years and I've always forgotten to ask yins all - As a kid, I played a D&D module with tortles. I'm pretty sure it also had a cloister of some sort, rakasta and a few other non-traditional monsters. Looking at module lists, though, I'm unable to ID it, and have lost touch with the friend who had it (and may not even remember, should I find him). Any help??!!!? - Mischa It's a better nickname for a boxer than a surgeon -- Orthopedic surgeon/heavyweight Harold 'Hackie' Reitman ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:58:32 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Alexander Brown Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Mischa E Gelman wrote: > As a kid, I played a D&D module with tortles. I'm > pretty sure it also > had a cloister of some sort, rakasta and a few other > non-traditional > monsters. Looking at module lists, though, I'm > unable to ID it, and have > lost touch with the friend who had it (and may not > even remember, should I > find him). Any help??!!!? If I'm not mistaken, that would be X9: Tha Savage Coast. But that's just off the top of my head, so I could be wrong. -Damon ===== "He who laughs last... thinks slowest." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:56:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Real stupid question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Mischa E Gelman wrote: > Okay, this is a really minor, slightly off-topic question, but it's been > wandering my mind for years and I've always forgotten to ask yins all - > > As a kid, I played a D&D module with tortles. I'm pretty sure it also > had a cloister of some sort, rakasta and a few other non-traditional > monsters. Looking at module lists, though, I'm unable to ID it, and have > lost touch with the friend who had it (and may not even remember, should I > find him). Any help??!!!? Could it be the Tortles of Purple Sage from Dungeon Magazine? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:16:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Deathwatch Subject: Blindshooting Proficiency? In-Reply-To: <59.59ca32.25b79e51@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey, I've seen the blindshooting proficiency several times, but I have never been able to find out what it does exactly. Does anyone know? :) Thanks, Bas van Doornspeek ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World Kit wrote: >I'd like to find out where the best mental institutions are in the Known >World? Perhaps my Insanity, Horror, and the Outer Beings article might help you? It's on Shawn's site, and it contains basic guidelines for determining what medieval-style asylums might be like, with some notes on what Known World countries might contain them (as a function of population, level of development, and cultural outlook), and how insane people would likely be treated. All this is based on my own knowledge (incomplete as it is, admittedly) of what things were like. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:07:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: Blindshooting Proficiency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is on GAZ13- the Shadow Elves. I don't have it with me right now, but it is downloadable from TSRs = site.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Deathwatch [SMTP:deathwatch@ZAP.A2000.NL] Sent: =E0 =F4=E1=F8=E5=E0=F8 13 2000 16:17 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Blindshooting Proficiency? Hey, I've seen the blindshooting proficiency several times, but I have never been able to find out what it does exactly. Does anyone know? :) Thanks, Bas van Doornspeek ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:35:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Four Paths to Entropic Immortality In-Reply-To: <4b.116bd60.25d26296@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > While I have not worked out the details of the four Paths, I do have names > and preliminary descriptions of them: Wow - I like these! I for one would like to see them explored in greater detail. I always wondered how someone would achieve immortal in Entropy. > Path of the Fiend (opposed to Path of the Polymath): This path was > suggested on the Mystara Mailing List by somebody whose name I > have lost. One of its requirements is to separately betray one member > of each of the four character classes. I would imagine that it should > also include reincarnation into three other forms, with the traditionally > most likely possibilities of cleric, mage, and thief being replaced by > shapeshifter, undead, and goblinoid or other "degenerate" humanoid. > Loki probably achieved Immortality via this Path. I don't mind keeping the human classes, as humans can be just as evil as any other being. How about just having some one do so as three "types" - so a gremlin could be instead of a thief, or a nagpa instead of a mage. As long as the general "style" is consistent - once as a magic-wielding char, once as a spirit-centered one, once as a sneaky type, once as a straight-forward violent type - this should suffice, no? - Mischa When announcer Graham McNamee asked Babe Ruth to name the greatest player of all time, Ruth said, "You mean major leaguers?" "No," replied McNamee, "the greatest player anywhere." "In that case," said Ruth, "I'd pick John Henry Lloyd." (http://www.totalbaseball.com/player/l/lloyj101/lloyj101.html) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:02:01 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Belissaria: the Breadbasket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > tips on how I can make my points clearer? > > Thanks in advance. try making them shorter that way people wont forget the start of the argument by the time they get to the end.maybe. damn feebleminds! mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:50:19 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Immortal campaign MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ok guys been away from the list for quite a while. i have a short question has anybody got any good ideas for an immortal level solo campaign. i have but one player for my d&d game, and he has reached immortallity. now the game may not proceed any further as i have recently started a star wars game with a group including my solo gamer. i have never run an immortals game before, though i have both the gold box set and wrath. i also have im2 and im3 so i have a starting point if we do continue the game. i'm just looking for any help or ideas from anybody who has played at the immortal level. thanks in advance mortus. " All crime is committed by the living. Therfore life itself is a crime. Life is the crime,the sentence is DEATH!" Judge Death from the Judge Dredd comics. Mortus. jobo@eircom.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:56:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Immortal campaign In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > immortals game before, though i have both the gold box set and wrath. i > also have im2 and im3 so i have a starting point if we do continue the > game. I only recently ordered IM3. IM2 would work fine if you want to use the pregen chars to compliment his - it's a decent adventure overall, not requiring too much group teamwork to run efficiently (as opposed to IM1). > i'm just looking for any help or ideas from anybody who has played at the > immortal level. Does the char have any major enemies on the immortal level? Did he bust up a church of Jammaradu as a mortal, or foil a plot by Alphaks? If so, you can definitely continue those conflicts with all kinds of adventures. They could try sabotaging his new home plane, for instance, with their agents or by causing "accidents" to occur. - Mischa When announcer Graham McNamee asked Babe Ruth to name the greatest player of all time, Ruth said, "You mean major leaguers?" "No," replied McNamee, "the greatest player anywhere." "In that case," said Ruth, "I'd pick John Henry Lloyd." (http://www.totalbaseball.com/player/l/lloyj101/lloyj101.html) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:22:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jamuga Khan Subject: Re: Pronunciation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Germany we say: Al - spoken like th "Ul" in "Ulster" pha - "ph" like "Philadelphia" and the "a" like in "Ar-kansas" ti - like "si" in "sister" a - again like in "Arkansas" Jamuga Khan "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:33:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can only recall the X9 too as being the only module where to find rakasta and turtles.A good module if i may say, easily adaptable. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X10, The Savage Coast. Or X6, Quagmire! Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > Okay, this is a really minor, slightly off-topic question, but it's been > wandering my mind for years and I've always forgotten to ask yins all - > > As a kid, I played a D&D module with tortles. I'm pretty sure it also > had a cloister of some sort, rakasta and a few other non-traditional > monsters. Looking at module lists, though, I'm unable to ID it, and have > lost touch with the friend who had it (and may not even remember, should I > find him). Any help??!!!? > > - Mischa > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:33:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Yeah, that's it. X9 The Savage Coast. Not X10. But it might be in Quagmire, too. thibault sarlat wrote: > > I can only recall the X9 too as being the only module where to find > rakasta and turtles.A good module if i may say, easily adaptable. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:32:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no trace of turtle nor rakasta in X6 Quagmire! -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kevin Powers Subject: Re: Real stupid question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Beg your pardon. I stand corrected. thibault sarlat wrote: > > no trace of turtle nor rakasta in X6 Quagmire! > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:00:56 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Blindshooting Proficiency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OOOOOH, if y'all remember, GAZ 13 is one that i just picked up!!!!! Blindshooting is described as: The ability to shot at a target without seeing it. Your character must be able to hear the target so it's position must be evaluated. A Hit Roll is needed to hit the target but without the normal penalties due to darkness. This can be used in conjunction with the Hear Noise skill. Hope that works for ya! Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:56:41 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "dlegend@bellsouth.net" Subject: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are these modules worth my time and money? Also what are they about? HWA1: Nightwail HWA2: Nightrage HWA3: Nightstorm HWQ1: The Milenian Scepter Thanks dlegend aka The Shadowlord ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:12:32 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know personally what they are about, or if they're worth time/money, but here's a little synopsis. Hollow World: ------------ Series overview: The three HWA modules together form one long interconnected adventure for the Hollow World of Mystara. HWQ1 is a stand alone module which ties the Hollow World setting to the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set. HWA1: Nightwail Setting: D&D Hollow World, Mystara Characters: ? of levels 6-8 HWA2: Nightrage Setting: D&D Hollow World, Mystara Characters: ? of levels 7-9 HWA3: Nightstorm Setting: D&D Hollow World, Mystara Characters: ? of levels 8-10 HWQ1: Milenian Sceptre Setting: D&D Hollow World, Mystara Characters: ? of levels 6-8 Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:26:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: notable update on my site. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At last it is done! Here are the new stuff that you can find on my site (they have all been tested now so if you have any problem reaching them, drop me a note): 1 : A Voyage of the Princess Ark map section where you can find most of the maps depicting the regions Haldemar visited (the missing one will be be added soon). 2 : Another section for the maps of the cities of Mystara and more generaly for all the monuments or notable place.This section will be refurnished as time goes by. 3 : The Sind region map that someone asked me some time ago (Jenny if I recall correctly ) has been remade and cut so as to fit the left border of the Known world in 8 miles per hex map of old (which also has been revised for the occasion).I think that from now on, every time i will add a region bordering those two region , i'll try to put them next to the other so as to constitute a gigantic map. As always , every time i draw a map, it is available both in png format and in gif (in order to allow you to print them if you want to). The next updates will happen less frequently because as a fourth year student at the university i have to do a research paper (80 pages long and in good english) , so i think that my mapping time would be considerably lessened. As for those who ordered me maps, do not worry i'll do them first. And as for my contribution to the next issue of the Tome of Mystara, let say that it won't be as prolific as the previous one, but i will do my best to make the most. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:32:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the three nightstuff modules.I have never had the opportunity to play them, but i think that they are worth something .They are the three parts of a trilogy campaign, involving immortal plots, the HW, and so on.It is a good way to introduce the HW to your Outer world players.I had a good time reading them.It depends greatly on how much you can pay them.I might have a possibility to have some of them (mint condition), for more information, drop me a note. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:34:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jorge Cavalheiro Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Here's the Adventure Overview from HWA2 NightRage As outlined in the beginning of nightwail, this trilogy details an elaborate plot by the Entropy Immortal Thanatos to corrupt the Hollow Wolrd and parts of the outer world. He has set in motion several schemes - in the Azcan empire, the Nithian empire, and, far overseas, the land of Shahjapur ( A new culture introduced in this trilogy; for details see nightstorm). This module details the Nithian section of Thanatos's plot, the project code-named nightrage. The boxed-set outlined a pivotal event in the hollow world's history, the onslaught of a monstrous rare of burrowers. The Annelids and other burrowers' devastation throughout the Hollow World led by the immortals to create their Spell of Preservation. The spell put the Annelids into suspended animation, beyond even the Entropy Immortals' power to revive them ... the other Immortals thought. Yet now Thanatos has revived some of the Annelids. As their master he has installed one of the Blood Brethen, the evil outer-world servants detailed in the first module of this series. Hope it helps Jorge Cavalheiro. ----- Original Message ----- From: dlegend@bellsouth.net To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] HW modules > Are these modules worth my time and money? > Also what are they about? > > HWA1: Nightwail > HWA2: Nightrage > HWA3: Nightstorm > HWQ1: The Milenian Scepter > > > Thanks > > dlegend aka The Shadowlord > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:09:06 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: harri m�ki Subject: Site update Hi all, there was some connection problems with Glantrian Political History files with Netscape. Those are now fixed, I hope... There is also now adde first of the Documents Relating to Glantrian Political History: Excerpts from "Lessons - being an example of how politics ought to be taught to would-be spokesmen" by Piero Recioto. http://sivut.koti.tpo.fi/wallemaki Harri Sunpoint.net - Kolmannen sukupolven Internet-palvelu http://www.sunpoint.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:41:00 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Alphatia Populations: DoTE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Thiesen Wrote: > > Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent that > are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? And > the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep the > rest of the world from discovering this? :) > Upon further review: There is a precident for that, actually: Norwold. Though the maps always show a nice, solid border indicating Alphatian control, they actually only really hold Landfall (why? Would *you* want it? I guess they have it because no one else is willing to take it off their hands, at least not until the HKs get suckered into grabbing it) and the Alpha peninsula. The rest is effectively independent. Norwold has a (somewhat/slightly) higher population than the population of the Alphatian-held areas (which comes to 100,000). The response might be "well, by the end of the Wrath War, Alphatia had only held Norwold for a quarter of a century, so that would explain their tenuous hold there). However, as Ranma Al'Thor pointed out, there are major "wild" areas in Esterhold as well ("Wild" in this case meaning "not entirely subdued") - two Alphatian Kingdoms and a number of coastal settlements define Alphatian "control" over Esterhold, though again the border appears nice and solid on the DotE map. And Alphatia has controled Esterhold for 800 years - longer than most nations of the KW have existed. So it is, I suppose, possible that this could hold true elsewhere as well - in Bellissaria, or even Alphatia proper. In addition, while the PWAs tend to give "accurate" population figures ("DM's Perspective" totals), they almost always leave out one sort of population: the monsterous population. Sure, 'noids in the Great Crater (especially once it becomes a Principality) or in Limn are counted - probably for the reason that these populations are integrated into the local society (well, more or less, at least to some extent). "Wild" or "uncontroled" monsters are not (for example, Karameikos' wildly fluctuating population is broken down not only by type of human, but by demi-human components as well. But the total number of Goblins isn't mentioned). So perhaps there's large wild areas full of monsters, which don't recieve much attention in the travel brochures handed out to tourists and potential tourists. This would account for the low population figures, since these represent only the populations loyal to Alphatia, and do not include monsters or other recalcitrant types. Anyhow, a post immediately following this one will break down and analyze Alphatia's population as of circa AC 1000/AY 2000, based upon the DM's figures in DotE &tc. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:51:49 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Alphatia Populations: DoTE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a rundown of Alphatia's populations, from DotE (or, where data was missing in that product, from the PWAs): Alphatia (Continent), by Kingdom: Ambur: 200,000 Aquas: 70,000 Arogansa: 150,000 Bettellyn*: 350,000 Blackheart: 50,000 Eadrin*: 100,000 Floating Ar: 150,000 Foresthome*: 100,000 Greenspur: 600,000 Frisland*: 100,000 Haven: 1,200,000 Limn: 250,000 Randel*: 150,000 Stonewall: 1,600,000 Stoutfellow: 60,000 Theranderol: 200,000 Vertiloch: 2,000,000 Total Mainland: 7,330,000 *Figures for Bettellyn, Eadrin, Foresthome, Frisland, and Randel are not available in DotE. They are available in the PWAs. For kingdoms not suffering "exceptional" losses (which are Veritloch and Haven), the general population decline (attrition & non-revival) seems to average 10% across the board. Thus the PWA figures for the "missing" kingdoms are multiplied by ....90 to get the pre-Wrath population. Colonial Populations: Aegos**: 5,000 or 20,000 Aeria: 15,000 Gaity**: 5,000 or 15,000 Ne'er-do-well**: 20,000 or 25,000 Dawnrim**: 25,000 Horken**: 30,000 Lagrius**: 150,000 Meriander**: 100,000 Notrion**: 50,000 Surshield**: 100,000 Blackrock**: 60,000 Verdan**: 150,000 Port Marlin**: 10,000 Rock Harbor**: 5,000 Anchorage**: 5,000 Dunadale**: 80,000 East Portage**: 10,000 Ekto**: 50,000 Thothia**: 60,000 Trikelios**: 70,000 Alpha: 90,000 Landfall: 10,000 Total Colonial: 1,130,000 Total Alphatian Empire: 8,460,000 **Note that for many of these figures, the PWAs imply higher pops than given in DotE. Alatians: the first numbers given are what appear in DotE AND in the first PWA. The second population figures are what appear in PWA II. It might then be taken, for example, that the Aegos population is only Aegopoli, with the other 15,000 persons elsewhere. The Gaity population may have grown because of Thyatian colonization, or may (like Aegos) represent two different totals: the population of Rainbow Park vs the population of the entire region. For the Isle of Dawn, the DotE figures for all places seem to have been re-defined by the time of the PWAs to mean only those who lived in the cities, with the total population given in PWA II. Some of these (Ekto, Dunadale) seem to have been affected by war (PWA I), since all numbers are usually round figures. So I rounded up to the nearest tenthousand. No complete totals for Esterhold appeared in DotE - just city populations - so the figures from PWA III were used. It is "doubtful at best" that Esterhold's population would have increased significantly between AC 1000 and AC 1013. Norwold's populations (under Alphatian control) seem to be consistant, however, so the DotE ones were used (PWA pops tend to be identical). Bellissaria: no complete population figures provided in DotE, so PWA figures used. Likwise, doesn't seem like the population grew significantly between AC 1000 and AC 1013. None the less, wherever I faced a choice I used the higher figure when comming to the total. At 8,460,000 the population of the Alphatian Empire is 146% higher than the figure given in the trail map. That figure only applies to "metropolitan" population (the "mainland"), however. But still, the figure for the Alphatian mainland, at 7,330,000, is 126% higher than the figure given in the trail map. Note that the colonial total itself is almost equal to Darokin's population. HW FCA Note: Though the 1st PWA gives a total population of Alphatia as 5,331,000, the actual sum of each Kingdom's population comes to 5,046,000. To this PWA II adds Zandoria (later Jafilia), but seems to assume that some (but not all) of Zandoria/Jafilia's population results in a migration from other Kingdoms (pops of some Kingdoms are adjusted downword) - this results in a total population of 5,071,000; but then PWA III gives a total population of 5,096,000 - which is precisely the population one would get if they added the PWA II population of Jafilia/Zandoria to the population that appears in the 1st PWA (though, again, some migration seems to have occured.) Thus, there wasn't a further sudden population decline from the 1st PWA to PWA II - the totals were just added wrong in the 1st PWA, and the way the figures finally sort themselves out one can surmise that there is some population recovery underway by PWA III. In any case, the population of 5,096,000 represents a decline of 2,234,000, or 30.5%, over the pre-war figure. Of that, about a third of the loss seems to be on account of the Immortals not finding everyone, while two thirds are war-related (mainly Aasla/Haven and Sundsvall/Veritloch). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:40:38 GMT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: kevin wyton Subject: copyright rules? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings all I have another submission awaiting but I just realized that like many others I shamelessly borrowed names from a published tsr product.I have made some changes to the names I used, but I hoped someone could clarify what might be copyright infringement. Wouldn't want the tsr copyright police looking over our files now would we? kevin "If you think no one cares about you, miss a payment." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:39:42 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "dlegend@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the help :). The night series sounds interesting so I decided to get them. I don't have a gaming group and I haven't played in a while, but I enjoy collecting and reading the models. BTW I found a great free program that allows you to play rpgs over the net. You can get the program here: http://www.webrpg.com/ Maybe we can get some Mystara campaigns going over the net. dlegend/The Shadowlord ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:52:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay People, I'm working on a PWA for the 1000-1009 timespan. I will be including War Machine Stats. I'm working on Alphatia at the moment and would like everybodies opinion on something. Suppose Alphatia (including colonies) has a population of 10,000,000 (ten million). How large (in personnel) would the Alphatian SKY navy be, so not the regular navy but the Skynavy. In general PWA suggests that for a 2% standing/20% wartime country, 10% are regular and moblizable regular troops and 10% are reserve troops. Of these 10% regulars, 8% will be Imperial Troops, the remaining 2% national troops. So of the 800,000 Imperial Troops, how many would belong the Imperial Skynavy. Does anyone have War Machine stats on Alphatia, which are not in the PWA's? I'd like to have those very much. Awaiting your response, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:03:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:56:41 -0800 "dlegend@bellsouth.net" writes: > Are these modules worth my time and money? > Also what are they about? > > HWA1: Nightwail > HWA2: Nightrage > HWA3: Nightstorm These three are essentially about a plot by Thanatos to get all the other Immortals out of the way and take over that works. The whole thing starts off when a caravan goes missing in Glantri, and while the PCs are out lookingfor it, clerics start losing spells and such. Anyhow, the party goes down to the HW and adventures all over the place down there, eventually going back to the beggining of time to stop Thanatos > HWQ1: The Milenian Scepter from what I recall from an old catalog, this is about what happens in Milenia during the Week of No Magic. I could be wrong. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:59:36 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: copyright rules? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have another submission awaiting but I just realized that like many others > I shamelessly borrowed names from a published tsr product.I have made some > changes to the names I used, but I hoped someone could clarify what might be > copyright infringement. Wouldn't want the tsr copyright police looking over > our files now would we? > You can use names fairly freely without violating copywrite. As a courtesy to the original authors people generally don't put such characters in compromising positions or unduely humiliate them, however. But you won't be breaking any copywrite by mentioning them, any more than the Mystaran/Net Almanac people do when they use folks like Broderick, Stefan Karameikos, Eusebius Torion, Jaggar von Drachenfells, et al in their work. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Pronunciation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ulfarsiar???? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamuga Khan To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Pronunciation > Here in Germany we say: > > Al - spoken like th "Ul" in "Ulster" > pha - "ph" like "Philadelphia" and the "a" like in "Ar-kansas" > ti - like "si" in "sister" > a - again like in "Arkansas" > > > Jamuga Khan > > > "Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law!" > > > > Visit my Homepage at http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan > or mail me under mailto:JamugaKhan@gmx.net . > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:46:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alphatia's low population could be attributed to a new philosophy that has sprung up, claiming that Mystara is swiftly becoming overcrowded. Then again, its more likely because most Alphatians don't want to be bothered with large families. Perhaps the philosophy is more along the lines that children stop your ability to "make something of yourself". ----- Original Message ----- From: David Knott To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) > In a message dated 2000-02-13 2:05:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > > << This is why, IMO, if one is going to "adjust" upwards the population of a > given area (say, Alphatia), then one needs to similarly "adjust" the areas > of the KW nations, so that they do not lapse into irellivance, and so that > the geopolitical dynamic of Mystara is preserved - so that every nation's > population & presumed geopolitical influence remains roughly in proportion > to what exists in "canon". >> > > On the other hand, since Alphatia is the only nation whose population > seems to be on the absurdly low side and we have in the Trail Maps an > official census figure that is clearly way too low, we have an easy expla- > nation as to why Alphatia has not been able to throw its weight around > more than it has. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:45:22 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Suppose Alphatia (including colonies) has a population of 10,000,000 (ten > million). > Well, the total I reached (as described in another post) was 8,330,000; but our totals don't differ by a large magnitude. Anyhow, I'll use my figures but if you want to keep within the 10 million range just add +20% to what I suggest below. > How large (in personnel) would the Alphatian SKY navy be, so not the regular > navy but the Skynavy. > See, that's tricky, because its *lots* easier to build regular warships than it is to build skyships, and skyships (various opinions to the contrary notwithstanding) are rather delicate, given their large cost. In any case, my personal opinion is the limiting factor for the sky navy wouldn't be availability of personel (but more on that below), but ability to build warships. America, for instance, could have 5,000,000 persons under arms (2% of the population), though we don't come close at the moment. But the number of Stealth Bombers isn't large at all - and Skyships of the Alphatian sort are more akin to building a B2 than to building, say, a F-15 or B-52 (or even a B-1). There is no mass assembly. Plus, Alphatia's "ruling class" has to take time out of their busy lives in order to build (or, rather, enchant them) - wheras they can simply order the slaves & servants to build warships of the seafaring sort or smith swords & armor. Alphatia's ruling mages might like (indeed, love) enchanting things and creating magical items, but the idea of being one person in a team of mages making the same "cookie-cutter" thing (as warships tend to be standardized) with no creativity involved isn't likely to appeal to them. So that, in addition to the high cost of such items, will further limit the amount there are. See below. > In general PWA suggests that for a 2% standing/20% wartime country, 10% > are regular and moblizable regular troops and 10% are reserve troops. > Well, the difference between "standing" and "wartime" *is* a difference between "regular" and "reserve" troop types. Regulars form the standing armies. Wartime troops consist of reserves, mercenaries, and the like. In any case, there is unlikely to be a large "reserve" skyship component (but, again, see below). Alphatia's "standing military" should be about 166,600 persons (Trailmap figures, which have seemed to become popular lately, give 215,000, of which 70% are mercenaries). Of this, about 65,320 will be in the "Imperial" forces, and the rest will be in the forces of the various Kingdoms. (How did I arrive at the total of 65,320? I took 20% of 166,600 + 40,000 - 8,000. The 20% is based upon usual "Imperial Taxation," the 40,000 come from Veritloch. 8,000 is then subtracted because that is the 20% from Veritloch, which is already counted and shouldn't be counted twice). > Of these 10% regulars, 8% will be Imperial Troops, the remaining 2% > national troops. > Actually, Alphatia is a very decentralized nation. In many if not most Mystaran nations, that ratio might be appropriate (since most Mystaran nations, like Darokin or even Karameikos, tend to have a very strong central authority, which controls most of the troops). Alphatian Kingdoms are very nearly autonomous (they can even go to war with each other, though this hasn't been stressed in most recent materiel) - and jelous of their independence. Thus the support they give to the Central Army is, IMO, more likely to be along the above lines - which is about a 4:6 ratio. > So of the 800,000 Imperial Troops, how many would belong the Imperial > Skynavy. > Probably not many. First, there isn't 800,000 troops to begin with, IMO. Secondly, the skynavy component probably won't be a given ratio/proportion. This is one of the more controvercial aspects of the Alphatian military, as recent debates should indicate. How many skyships do they have? Of those, how many are of the (un-military) "Airship of Love" variety? How many are closer in power to the (submersable) "Shark" than to a Man-of-War? Unknown and debatable. Anyhow, IMO the proportion would not be high. Particularly militaristic Alphatian Kingdoms might have their own Skynavies (see Alex's Randel Gaz, which is at dnd.starflung.com - I believe he put in his version of what Randel's sky navy would be like. If it isn't there, he did make one: ask him for it. I'm sure he'd be willing to share it with you.) Randel is an exception, not the rule, however. Draco/Stonewall will probably have a similar contingent, however - it is militaristic, and much more heavily populated than Randel. As for the Imperial sky navy itself, I would say that at *most* it has about 12,000 persons (including airmen who "sail" the ships - IMO this is a skill-intensive/training-intensive task and they should not be considered "non-military" for purposes of calculation the way other sailors can be in peacetime). This would mean there are about 20 Men of War, maximum, in the Imperial Fleet (and not all folk will be on Men-of-War). It'd be hard to argue for a higher proportion of the total, since Alphatia needs regular infantry, cavalry, and seafaring ships (if only to transport their troops). At least 1/3 of the total Imperial forces should be a sea navy, another 1/3 should be land forces (Infantry & Cavalry). The remaining 12% would consist of Imperial Guardsmen and various specialists - and also those folk who garisson Sundsvall & Veritloch itself in peacetime (they might be relieved by reservists when war mobilization occurs, so that they can send the regulars to the front). In time of war some Skyships can be commandeered out of private uses and put under Imperial command due to mobilization (this is what usually happens to the Princess Ark - NOTE: the Princess Ark as described in "Champions of Mystara" is a uniquely powerful ship - remember, it did not start out nearly that way - it was more of a "regular", un-enhanced pleasure craft, before Haldemar completed FR-Like Munchkin Spell #9 to give it lots of extra attributes). Most of the ships pressed into wartime service will be of the Princess Ark variety, or similar to the Sky Yacht of Whatsisname (see "Alphatian Yacht" card from Champions) - not a lot of bells & whistles on these. Useful, but not warships. Most of these seem to have been used in "rear echelon" type missions, away from the big battles, since they seem to be the type of ship that survived in the greatest proportion after the war (these are the "Small Ship" type things described in the Floating Ar portion of the PWA Warmachine descriptions) - thus indicating that it would probably be suicide for them to be used in frontline action (especially since comparatively few of the real warships did survive the war, given the numbers that the PWAs indicate). (Note that not nearly all were destroyed at Haven at the begining of the war: that was a main base, but it's hard to believe it was the only one. Mainly, IMO, that was done because they wanted to have the Wrath fought along "conventional" lines, rather than have Alphatian Men-of-War simply sail to Glantri City and pound it, which would have made for a short war. Also, possibly no one knew how to handle the Alphatian Men-of-War once they had been described, and simply decided to avoid the headache by disposing of them). Add another 30 or so skyships, but much smaller and less capable ships, for wartime mobilization. They probably account for about 8-10,000 personel (including "airmen" and carried troops). Training and equiping troops to function as Boltmen et al is also a factor that limits the size of the Alphatian sky navy. Add to that the fact that each Boltmen must by definition be a member of the Alphatian aristocracy, not noted for enthusiastically following orders as a private/"ranker" in an army, and one can see why their numbers would be limited even further. Enchanting Wands for the Boltmen is another extra-ordinary limiting factor: once again, most Alphatian Wizards probably enjoy enchanting magical items, but more as an "expression of creativity" rather than making 100 identical Wands for use by the military. These things aren't guns that can be made on an assembly line, or even Bows (Cross, Short, Composite, or Long) that can be made by skilled, but mundane, craftsmen: they have to be enchanted by high-level mages, and cost about 50 to 100 times as much as a normal missile weapon. These factors, rather than the population base of the Empire as a whole, is the true limiting factor on the size of its Skyship fleet. Some might say "well, they've had centuries to enchant these things" - but actually, it takes much more effort to create these things than it does to destroy them, and attrition thus has probably been another strong limiting factor over Alphatia's history (if you go by WotI, they can be stolen and destroyed much easier than they can be built. If you set asside the destruction of part of the Skynavy by fire in WotI and go simply by the PWA event wherin the Karameikans steal one, then they can still be stolen much easier than it is to build them. Is it worth the cost in time, effort, and money?) > > Does anyone have War Machine stats on Alphatia, which are not in the > PWA's? I'd like to have those very much. > No, don't have those. The PWAs do describe an Alphatian army, however (in PWA II), though sans a sea navy (since no use for one on the floating continent) - it does include info on sky fleets, however. Some work along these lines (NACE & Alphatian militaries) are probably going to be done by the Armies team for the 1017 Almanac, also, so if/when that is done you can compare those. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:54:43 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: HW modules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are these modules worth my time and money? > Also what are they about? > > HWA1: Nightwail > HWA2: Nightrage > HWA3: Nightstorm > HWQ1: The Milenian Scepter > > > Thanks > > dlegend aka The Shadowlord here is the synopsis off the backs of all four modules hope this helps. HWA1 Nightwail into the depths Under the ruins of Barleycorn Monastery, a tunnel leads one thousand miles downward. Through it, a rescue mission into the Broken Lands turns much stranger. Much more serious. For the trail leads to the Hollow World. Launch your D&D game players into fabulous lost-worlds adventure across the Hollow World! Travel the Azcan Empire. Explore the secret labyrinth of the great Pyramid in Chitlacan. Fly to the core of the world and enter the Smoking Mirror, before the monstrous Prince Kano enacts his devastating scheme - a scheme called: NIGHTWAIL for four to six players levels 6 - 8. HWA2 Nightrage Bright and Dark. Snakes fly, stones walk, and colossal monsters burrow in the world's crust - do these omens foretell catastrophe? Perhaps so, for now the dark elves walk in the sunlight, wearing armour that turns the sharpest blades and strongest spells, They are poised to conquer the fabulous Hollow World. But what is this armour? How does it's creation involve the ancient, mile - long great Annelids, as well as those wondrous creatures, the feathered serpents? The mystery's solution draws your heroes across three thousand miles, from ruins to seaports, through the trackless caverns beneath the World's Spine, and finally to the eternal land of Nithia. There, your heroes discover the true meaning of ... NIGHTRAGE! HWA3 Nightstorm. To find then immortals! The all - powerful Immortals have vanished! The quest to locate them has led across the Atlas Ocean to the land of Shahjapur, where moguls hunt tigers, untouchables respectfully avoid higher castes, and holy Fakirs perch immobile for years on end. In this land of shrines and elephants and shapeshifting assassins, resolution may lie at the end of the mysterious "Emerald River". But no one knows the location of this river and no map shows its bed. Does the answer lie within the Temple of Eight Sweet Winds? Hopefully so , for the time grows short,. The Immortals themselves must be found and enlisted - to stave off the approaching cataclysm called: NIGHTSTORM! for 4 - 6 characters level 8 - 10. i have read all three but not played them i think they are good modules and worth getting. especially the third as it is the only cannon source for the land of shahjapur, but the whole campaign helps to flesh out the hollow world a bvit more especially if you don't have the hollow world source books on any of the lands. the same goes for this. HWQ1 The Milenian Scepter. civil war. Unrest. Turmoil. Rebellion. As above so below - the cataclysmic events of the Wrath of the Immortals echo throughout the Hollow World setting. The Milenian Empire, with its classical Greek culture, has not escaped. Already the streets are unsafe, and the omens are getting worse ... The emperor is dead ... long live the Emperor! But is the new emperor a man of the people, or a tool in the hands of malevolent powers? Walk carefully, for no stranger is safe upon the streets these days, and adventurers least of all! The mood of the capital city is turning ugly. Minions of the new emperor look on uncaring, while citizens disappear and philosophers fall to heedless nobs. The old emperor's elite guards are disbanded and scattered. Disorder reigns, and restless citizens threaten open revolt. And yet ... a whisper is heard. Civil war can be averted. An ancient artifact, the Milenian Scepter, can rally those who would serve the Empire best. But the Scepter has been lost for generations, and who can say where it might be? The trail leads into the depths of the city, and across a dangerous wilderness to a forgotten oracle. For the lucky and the bold, perhaps it will lead to ... THE MILENIAN SCEPTER hope this helps. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:16:55 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: WebRPG (was: HW modules) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:39:42 -0800 "dlegend@bellsouth.net" writes: > BTW I found a great free program that allows you to play rpgs over > the net. > You can get the program here: > http://www.webrpg.com/ Hmm... you know I think I checked that out a while back (way, way back). *hard drive whirrs* What do you know, I still have it sitting around on my hard drive. IIRC, it seemed rather interesting, though a little bit complicated. > Maybe we can get some Mystara campaigns going over the net. I know I'd be interested in participating in one... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:57:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ALPHATIA: 15,745,072 I agree, though the number should perhaps be somewhat lower since large areas of Alphatia are completely unsettled (central forests=60% of land area, Kerothar Mts, north-east coast etc.) > BELLISSARIA: 8,196,000 I agree, though it might be slightly lower, since Bellissaria is mostly rural, no cities, maybe 3-5 million > ESTERHOLD: 6,330,000 Esterhold should use a far lower density, only coastal enclaves are settled, 500,000 is sufficient > ALATIANS: 981,000 Possible, though they are hardly settled by nobility, mostly lowe class, many pirate hed-outs etc. > QEODHAR: 562,047 Like alatians, together should have perhaps 500,000 people > YANIFEY: 214,714 Completely wrong, Yannifeys is a penal colony, 20,000 is nearer the mark > DAWN: 2,314,780 I agree, maybe higher still, though Thyatian-Dawn should be calculated as well. > NORWOLD: 7,022,489 Unlikely. Hardly settled (who wants to live there?) 1,000,000 is more than enough. > TOTAL ALPHATIAN POPULATION: 41,366,102. 25,000,000 is a better estimation I would think > Of course, no other Mystaran nation's population or size should be adjusted > as a result of this revision: the point that must be made is that they are > not a significant factor in Mystara, and adjusting them as well (especially > those petty nations in the Known World) is thus unessissary. I agree Interesting Discussion, M.M.M. Grootenboer ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:57:33 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for the Imperial sky navy itself, I would say that at *most* it has >about 12,000 persons (including airmen who "sail" the ships - IMO this is a >skill-intensive/training-intensive task and they should not be considered >"non-military" for purposes of calculation the way other sailors can be in >peacetime). This would mean there are about 20 Men of War, maximum, in the >Imperial Fleet (and not all folk will be on Men-of-War). Mmm, I have to say I was a bit more generous James :) I (entirely arbitrarily, no logic here) made the Alphatian navy around 25 men 'o war, with a further 25 skyfrigate size ships (Princess Ark sized vessels) and 80 odd more ships of lesser sizes. With a fair percentage of these being toasted in the fire at Aasla. As an aside, I have the regular sea Navy of Alphatia a pretty pathetic force. With skyships, I imagine the seafleet would be a second rate option when it comes to much needed funding and such. Fleet does the flying, the Navy does the dying... All arbitrary tho - no logic or reason here, just figures I pulled out of the air. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:03:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps the given population densities should be taken as Noble-Only Figures, this would better explain where Alphatia would get 1,000 36th (D&D, or 20th AD&D) Level Wizards in the Grand Council. Alphatian consensus only counts full-citizens, so only magic-using people, they accounts for 20% of population according to cannon sources, this figure could be quintupled for mainland nations to get full-population. For rim-nations like Esterhold and Norwold a more conservative multiplication would be in order. Response? Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:19:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Perhaps the given population densities should be taken as Noble-Only > Figures, this would better explain where Alphatia would get 1,000 36th > Ok. DotE states that roughly 1/5 of the Alphatian population is Nobles. Thus, we take 8,330,000 and divide it by .20; from that we get 41,650,000. Wow, that's remarkably close to the 41,366,102 figure I arrived at. And you thought I was wrong 8-). Does one similarly assume that other nations only count their upper classes in the census? I suppose another way to do it would be to assume that the Alphatians don't count their slaves in their census figures. Thus one can have lots of additional people, but they are all slaves. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:31:30 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Mmm, I have to say I was a bit more generous James :) > Ok. But then what does the total personel come to? That *is* a factor - because significant troops still need to remain to be ground-pounders and seadogs (of the traditional sailing-navy sort). 25 Men of War = 15,000 persons. 25 Skyfrigates = 6,250* 80 Odd Ships = 14,400** Total Personel, Sky Navy: 27,500. *Drat: can't find my portion of "Champions" that has the description of the Ark's compliment. I assumed an average of 250 on Skyfrigates. That's less than half the compliment on Men of War. **Assumed an average complement of 180 persons. I thought the sky navy was supposed to be an elite force, but here it makes up over a third of the total "Imperial" forces. But see below. > I (entirely arbitrarily, no logic here) made the Alphatian navy around 25 > men 'o war, with a further 25 skyfrigate size ships (Princess Ark sized > vessels) and 80 odd more ships of lesser sizes. With a fair percentage of > these being toasted in the fire at Aasla. > Now, on the other hand, there *could* be roughly that many - however the difference in our figures could be subsumed by the presence of such ships in the fleets of various Kingdoms (which I left out of my totals, but did mention). It's not implausable that they have such forces. One might then cut back on the number of Men-of-War in Imperial service per se, add in some Skyfrigates et al (and still arrive at roughly 12,000 persons in the Imperial Sky Navy), with individual Kingdoms having the rest of the total. > > As an aside, I have the regular sea Navy of Alphatia a pretty pathetic > force. > It can be pathetic - good mainly for hunting pirates and transporting troops, but not good in sea fighting itself (think the usual success of the French fleet against the British - isn't as if the French didn't often have some fine ships, they just couldn't hang with the British in sea battles) - they obviously have a fairly sizable fleet, given what we know about places like Spearpoint, Eagret, etc. The Thyatian fleet tends to come off as more capable, generally & historically, so I do think you're right in that respect at least to not assume the Alph navy is worldbeaters. > > All arbitrary tho - no logic or reason here, just figures I pulled out of > the air. > That's why I like to do the math - see what the numbers imply before picking a figure. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:45:32 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >25 Men of War = 15,000 persons. >25 Skyfrigates = 6,250* >80 Odd Ships = 14,400** > >Total Personel, Sky Navy: 27,500. Ooooo! Lots of troops. >*Drat: can't find my portion of "Champions" that has the description of the >Ark's compliment. I assumed an average of 250 on Skyfrigates. That's less >than half the compliment on Men of War. > >**Assumed an average complement of 180 persons. Hmm, seems like a hell of a lot of crew. Even assuming for lots of marines. 180 men on a little sloop or something? I assume that skysloops are comparable to Spelljammer ships, ie a complement of around 40? The Men 'o War are MUCH bigger than their smaller brethren. However, I am comfortable in my chair right now and I'm not going to summon the energy to reach for my Champions of Mystara box to get some ideas of crew sizes :) I'm sure someone else will if I pollute the MML for long enough with my posts :) >Now, on the other hand, there *could* be roughly that many - however the >difference in our figures could be subsumed by the presence of such ships >in the fleets of various Kingdoms (which I left out of my totals, but did >mention). It's not implausable that they have such forces. One might then >cut back on the number of Men-of-War in Imperial service per se, add in >some Skyfrigates et al (and still arrive at roughly 12,000 persons in the >Imperial Sky Navy), with individual Kingdoms having the rest of the total. Well, I was aiming at Total Strength. I take it as red that that figure would be spread out throughout the other kingdoms. >> >> All arbitrary tho - no logic or reason here, just figures I pulled out of >> the air. >> >That's why I like to do the math - see what the numbers imply before >picking a figure. 8-) Its just more of my WW1 analogy... British Royal Navy in WW1 - 25 odd dreadnoughts, about the same again in cruisers, 80 odd destroyers... shameless me. Well, that explains the figure anyway :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:30:30 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Men 'o War are MUCH bigger than their smaller brethren. However, I am > comfortable in my chair right now and I'm not going to summon the energy to > reach for my Champions of Mystara box to get some ideas of crew sizes :) > Yah, and I've mislocated mine so don't have the numbers handy. :( Oh, wait! Found it. I guess upon further review you're right: Princess Ark itself has 101 persons and 1d20 mercs. Of course, its crew is probably smaller than normal because the ship flys itself (and the ship was itself smaller before FR-Like Munchkin Spell #9 was applied). But if the ships are PA sized, I suppose assume an average of 125 persons total, of whom maybie 80 are marines & Boltmen. > > Hmm, seems like a hell of a lot of crew. Even assuming for lots of marines. > 180 men on a little sloop or something? I assume that skysloops are > comparable to Spelljammer ships, ie a complement of around 40? > A complement of around 40? Remember, Alphatians like sailing-type ships: they can't be crewed by one guy sitting in a Helm, but have rigging, etc. Ok - a Small Sailing Ship-sized Vessel would have a crew of 10 and 25 Marines (but is it worth the cost?). A Large Sailing Ship-sized Vessel would have 20 crewmen and 50 Marines. But those are sea navy ships. "Champions" gives the following figures: Sloop: 25-50 sailors, 20-40 marines Schooner: 30-60 sailors, 30-60 marines Brigantine: 50-100 sailors, 50-100 marines* Man of War: 100-200 sailors, 200-400 marines** *Princess Ark seems to fall into the "Brigantine" category, so I suppose average "sailors" for this sized ship but without the FR-LMS9 would be 60 or so, with 75 or so marines. **Man-of-War as described on the Card seems to be maximum size. I guess that means there are weaker varieties and the one given is the most powerful. However, the card is what people imagine when they think of an Alphatian Man-of-War, so barring a new description, I'll keep using that one. Means the revised totals of your figures are: Men-of-War: 15,000 Brigantines: 3,500 Smaller: 6,200 Total: 24,700 Or still over a third of the Imperial Forces. > > Well, I was aiming at Total Strength. I take it as red that that figure > would be spread out throughout the other kingdoms. > Ok. Well, not everyone does automatically. Note for clarity, though: Just because some of the ships/forces are under various Kingdoms rather than direct Imperial command doesn't mean they won't appear in a battle alongside them (though various polyglot Imperial forces. . .not usually efficient command structures) - they get loaned out for campaigns, IMO, but what Andrew Thiesen was saying about how the Alphatian Empire likely functions probably has significant effect on how well everyone cooperates (disputes over strategies and who should command are probably fairly common, intra-Empire rivalries, jellousies, etc. . .) > > Its just more of my WW1 analogy... British Royal Navy in WW1 - 25 odd > dreadnoughts, about the same again in cruisers, 80 odd destroyers... > shameless me. Well, that explains the figure anyway :) > Well, you see - that's another area where we tend to come at things from different directions, because you see the Alphatian Empire as analogous to the British Empire, but IMO DotE tends to imply that Thyatis is more closely an analogy of the British Empire (for one thing, it's efficiently run. For another thing, Retebius Air Fleet/"RAF" mean anything to any one? For a third thing, Thyatian ministries with names like "The Foreign Office" and "The Home Office" et all should evoke some sense of familiarity to anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the British government). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:21:16 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130734.CAA09656@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > ---------- > > > > The figures for Dawn, Bellissaria, and Alphatia proper here are good, > with > > the others, I would argue a much lower population. > > > > Which is still less than 1/10th the population density of Thyatis :) > > > See, then if one is being "realistic", there is no reason for Esterhold > (controlled for 800 years by Alphatia) or even Norwold to have a lower > population density - Nor Qeodhar or Yannifey. They can hardly be considered > "overpopulated" at 6.33 persons per square mile, can they? > The Yannifey islands and Queodhar are not primarily agricultural areas prone to rises in population. They are marginal areas which mostly consist of cold, barren hills and mountains, chiefly capable of supporting fishermen. And that's how they are canonically described, rather than as urbanized societies with rich agriculture, which is how the heartland areas are described. And Esterhold is not an agricultral zone; it's home to several mining colonies, and unlike mainland Alphatia, the site of a constant, slow, bleeding war which would tend to keep populations down. > > Sarcasm is a waste of time. Of course, since most PCs are not ruling > > entire nations and directing geopolitics, it doesn't matter to them who > is > > the most powerful nation. > > > Then neither does it matter to adjust them, if geopolitical considerations > are irrelivant. In fact, much of not most of the discussions on this list Cause it bugs me :) > > Calm, rational, explanatory posts were fruitless in demonstrating the > point: thus satire (not sarcasm) was used - the entire idea of 41 million > in one nation, which, as I mentioned in another post recently submited, is > a greater total than the "canon" figures for all known Mystaran nations > (both surface and hollow world, and including this particular one), should > make the point itself. > I got your point without sarcasm. I just don't agree with it. China had more manpower and resources than all of its neighbors as well, yet it didn't go on to conquer everything in sight. I don't see any reason for Alphatia to do so either. The purpose of this is not to adjust the geopolitical balance in my own case, it's to deal with the fact that I can't believe an advanced nation would have a lower population density than the Ethengar Khanates. > that when I earlier suggested that for sake of keeping the geopolitical > balance, KW areas & pops should likewise be adjusted, but that was It isn't necessary to adjust other area's populations to maintain the geopolitical balance. > going to be done for, say, Davania? Minaea? Milenia in the Hollow World? If > other nations aren't going to be "adjusted" so that their population and > power is made more appropriate for their real world equivilents? > Because those nations don't have ridiculously low population levels in comparison to each other, as compared to Alphatia, where powerful magic users apparently can't manage to support as many people as pastoralists can. Because Alphatia is the only country I've found so far with unbelievably low population densities. Because most of the other Known World countries DO reflect believable population densities in comparison to the real world. Because otherwise, I have to imagine Alphatia being like Solaria, which isn't my impression from DotE as to how it works. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:40:00 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > fishermen. And that's how they are canonically described, rather than as > urbanized societies with rich agriculture, which is how the heartland > areas are described. > Well, according to canon, the heartland areas are described as having 7,330,000 persons. They aren't described as utterly urbanized or completely devoted to farmland. > > Cause it bugs me :) > Well, that is a good reason - and *NO* - I'm *NOT* being sarcastic - I myself tend to go on and on about the things that bug me, so I don't begrudge that in others *_+ > > I got your point without sarcasm. I just don't agree with it. China had > more manpower and resources than all of its neighbors as well, yet it > didn't go on to conquer everything in sight. I don't see any reason for > Alphatia to do so either. > They usually pushed 'em around quite a bit, however. And China grew more or less continuously. Also, Alphatia is manifestly *not* MChina. Still, since you admit that by raising the population several orders of magnitude you're transforming the dynamics of the world (your Mystara), I guess that's your own call. To each their own. Except that one of the things that bugs me (as folks may have noted) is the tendancy of people (especially those who say they like Alphatia and/or prefer it over other countries - I don't know if you're in that category or not) - is to turn it into a sort of "abstract concept" - they "like" Alphatia, but when it comes to this or that "actual" attribute of Alphatia as it was described, they tend to disassociate themselves from it - this it's history becomes more benign, it's people kindly, population & power magnified, etc etc - until the "Alphatia" we're discussing bares little or no resemblance to the Alphatia that appeared in DotE (and it's not just fans who go this route, as we know). Me? Yah, I have a "variant" version of Thyatis - which 1) still recognizably resembles it, but more importantly 2) when I discuss Thyatis on the MML I discuss the Thyatis we're all familiar with - not demand that everyone change the basic assumptions of what Thyatis is described as in DotE in order to fit some new version wherin they are somehow different, have 3 or more times as many people as DotE describes, etc. And yet one sees this happen all the time with Alphatia - an Alphatia that has Dukes & Counts, that is more democratic, that respects other cultures and races, that is vastly more populous, that respects non-spellcasters rather than seeing them as underlings, etc. That's what makes discussing Alphatia almost always end up being monumentally frustrating. Whyd do I keep participating in these discussions anyhow? Because it bugs me. 8-) > The purpose of this is not to adjust the geopolitical balance in my own > case, it's to deal with the fact that I can't believe an advanced nation > would have a lower population density than the Ethengar Khanates. > Except that it's hard to make the case that by trippling or quadrupling the population of the Alphatian Empire this has absolutely no effect on Mystara as a while. > > It isn't necessary to adjust other area's populations to maintain the > geopolitical balance. > See, I simply don't think that is an statement that can be taken at face value - it's just not the case; People have already, on numerous occassions, argued strenuously about how decisive Alphatia's population superiority is, even at the 8,330,000 figure. Whether they're right or wrong is one thing (they're wrong) - but they become much more right if instead of a roughly 2:1 advantage over their rivals they have a 10:1 advantage. > > Because those nations don't have ridiculously low population levels in > comparison to each other, as compared to Alphatia, where powerful magic > users apparently can't manage to support as many people as pastoralists > can. > That's inaccurate. For one example, if Milenia in the HW covers the area (sq. miles) that it is said to cover, then "realistically" it's population can and should be about 12,000,000. How do I arrive at that? Because it covers aproximately the same area as the ByzantinoRoman Empire did in the early 11th century, and recient scholarly estimate places the Byzantine Population of that time at about 12 million, and also states that there was still room for it to grow. Milenia arguably has better land than Byzantium did, as well. Anyhow, as I said in other posts, it'd probably just be easier to make Alphatia smaller than to make their population greater - especially if geopolitical considerations don't matter one way or the other. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:42:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130757.CAA06541@smtp6.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Thyatis does not hold off Alphatia based on size; it wins because > > Alphatians don't care enough about military matters, unless pressed too > > far, to actually exert themselves. This is why Thyatis has been able to > > stalemate Alphatia so long; the Thyatians ARE militaristic, they have > > superior quality troops, and they can more efficiently use the power they > > have. > > > You've seen the debates on the MML, right? Most people think a 2:1 > population advantage is decisive, so why increase it more? > Because I think they're wrong. It's only decisive if the Alphatians as a nation are actually interested in it. The Habsburgs, despite being rulers of the Holy Roman Empire, were unable to conquer Switzerland when it rebelled against them. The English, despite a more than 2:1 advantage, were unable to ever permanently conquer the Scots without help from inside Scotland. The key thing is that I don't see Alphatia as so tightly unified as to be able to bring its full resources to bear. The Emperor isn't an absolute monarch, he's first among equals, and most Alphatians aren't particularly interested in conquest. That would require missing the boating season, you see. > Furthermore, it isn't as if the Alphatians aren't interested in > expansionistic (in fact, in recent Mystaran history, they expanded into a > region greater in area than the entire Thyatian Empire - Norwold, invaded > in AC 985) - so they do "exert themselves". Their inability to conquer > Thyatis in AC 959-60 wasn't for a lack of trying, IMO. >' ' Norwold was the result of the personal project of Empress Eriadna. The Alphatians as a whole have been apathetic towards it. Nor was Norwold controlled by anything but disorganized pathetic humanoids. And in fact, after fifty years of settlement, most of Norwold remains a howling, raging wilderness, and King Ericall doesn't actually control anything more than fifty miles from Alpha. He can't even get the local halflings to submit. > IMNSHO, radically increasing the Alphatian population creates a vastly > different dynamic than is described in DotE and elsewhere. Alphatia is a The dynamic I got from DotE is that most Alphatian aristocrats, who control the power of the country, have better things to do than war and conquest for some useless barbarian lands. See Master Terari's speech to Gabrielle where he explains why Alphatians don't live up to their potential. Yes, some Alphatians are ambitious and expansionistic. And they typically end up having to try to conquer lands for the empire with their own resources, and they frequently come to a bad end, like Lord Halzuntrum, the guy who tried to take over Glantri for the empire. Most Alphatian aristocrats, who control the wealth, and thus the military potential of the Empire, don't care. > fractious society, to be sure, not a unitary one - and this is one reason > why Thyatis, much smaller in size and population, has held them off for a > thousand years. It wasn't (at least as described in DotE) because the > Alphatians don't care to exert themselves, aren't interested in conquering > places (they are indeed very interested in conquering everything they can, > at least on an Imperial level - and it's odd to say that for an entire > millenium they haven't simply because of a lack of interest in exerting > themselves, since they *have* exerted themselves). > Alphatia's successful expansions have all come against hunter-gatherers and pastoralists. It's relatively easy for an emperor to field an army capable of crushing such with his own resources, or for some private Alphatian to organize such a thing. The Jennites and the orcs, goblins, and whatnot of Norwold are easily brushed aside. And in a thousand years, if the Alphatians were really interested in colonial conquests, they should have done a lot more than the limited amount of efforts they've made. > > As for population densities: the next suggestion will be to radically > decrease Thyatis' population, because the density is unrealistically high - No, actually, I find it believable because Thyatis is a major trade center and has Ochalea to help provide food for it. And because unlike most KW countries, mainland Thyatis isn't full of howling monster-infested wilderness. Please don't put words in my mouth which aren't there. > however, the reason that was done was because the designers desired to > portray two rival Empires, not one super-Empire with no peer. It was too > late, given the map of the KW that they had stuck themselves with (from > X1), to "re-size" the Thyatian mainland, so they made it unrealistically > densely populated, and left Alphatia unrealistically lightly populated. > Similarly, the populations of the other KW nations give them some role & > position in the international arena (of course, as I explained earlier, Except that the history of most of them as written indicates no dealings with Alphatia whatsoever, or only a single minor dealing. Thus, the strength of Alphatia is irrelevant to their lives because they stay out of Alphatia's affairs and vice versa. It's largely isolationist, and they're largely concerned with each other. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:46:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000213002158.007caa40@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 01:54 AM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: > > > >IMNSHO, radically increasing the Alphatian population creates a vastly > >different dynamic than is described in DotE and elsewhere. Alphatia is a > >fractious society, to be sure, not a unitary one - and this is one reason > >why Thyatis, much smaller in size and population, has held them off for a > >thousand years. It wasn't (at least as described in DotE) because the > >Alphatians don't care to exert themselves, aren't interested in conquering > >places (they are indeed very interested in conquering everything they can, > >at least on an Imperial level - and it's odd to say that for an entire > >millenium they haven't simply because of a lack of interest in exerting > >themselves, since they *have* exerted themselves). > > More and more, I'm coming to truly believe that the Imperial throne is a > crock, and that the Alphatian "Emperor" really is little more than a > mediator between autonomous monarchs on the mainland. And that the Grand > Council exists almost exclusively for the function of making sure that no > one Emperor can pull a "Caesar" and try to change the functioning of > Alphatian society as it exists. > > That's my own approach. I see it as a cross between China and the Late Holy Roman Empire. The Emperor is close to being simply First among Equals, and the empire holds together through a combination of cultural unity and the fact that every king aspires to the emperorship...better to stay in and have the shot at the big prize than to go one's own way completely. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:54:22 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Because I think they're wrong. It's only decisive if the Alphatians as a > nation are actually interested in it. > The Alphatians are not uninterested in expansionism or Imperialism > > The dynamic I got from DotE is that most Alphatian aristocrats, who > control the power of the country, have better things to do than war and > conquest for some useless barbarian lands. See Master Terari's speech to > Gabrielle where he explains why Alphatians don't live up to their > potential. > Did they get their empire by accident? There seems to be a contradiction here: on the one hand, the Alphatians have a whole lot of land which "must" be filled to capacity by multiplying the size of their population. On the other hand, how they aquired so much property becomes a mystery, because they are proportetly unable or uninterested in expanding. > > And in a thousand years, if the Alphatians were really interested in > colonial conquests, they should have done a lot more than the limited > amount of efforts they've made. > Not nessissarily, if they were contained and prevented from achieving great expantion - They can't achieve conquests because, yes, they are internally fractious and because it's hard to get their Zzonga-drugged ruling classes focused for any length of time - but not because they don't care to conquer (the Alphatians, as a people, are probably Mystara's most expansionistic) - but because they are opposed and prevented from doing so. Not for lack of trying. > > Please don't put words in my mouth which aren't there. > I didn't say you would, I said someone would. See, this isn't a conversation just between the two of us; it's one thing if, for example, you say that in your campaign Alphatia will have X million people but it won't matter because they're more fractious than the various KW nations, and are effectively impotent. Someone else (as is being done by another participant in this discussion) will then come in and adopt your figures but then say how tough and effective the Alphatians are. I'll then have to argue it out with them single-handedly, because though others may or may not agree with my point of view, or at least may disagree with theirs, for whatever reason they never want to jump into those discussions. Then we get (for example) a 30 million person Alphatia with an efficient army and centralized leadership blowing over the rest of the world, or, what's worse not blowing over the rest of the world - but not because they are Zzonga doped, indifferent, fractious, and impotent, but because they're too benign to force themselves upon others. And yes, that impression of Alphatia will matter to me. Like I said in another post, that won't be your direct responsibility, 'cause you aint them - but ideas have consiquences. Fiddling around with the population figures and promoting an adjusted total will have consiquences - if it didn't have any consiquences whatsoever, folks wouldn't be all this enthusiastic about doing so, right? I mean, why put so much effort into counting hexes and comming up with new totals if it doesn't matter much in the great scheme of things one way or the other? > > Except that the history of most of them as written indicates no dealings > with Alphatia whatsoever, or only a single minor dealing. > Because something stands in the way. As came out in the "Tactics vs. Magic" thread, the general assumption was that if Alphatia hadn't sunk, and had succeeded in defeating Thyatis & Glantri, they wouldn't then simply pack up their kits and go home. They'd run rampant over the KW, conquering it. > > Thus, the > strength of Alphatia is irrelevant to their lives because they stay out of > Alphatia's affairs and vice versa. It's largely isolationist, and they're > largely concerned with each other. > See, that's wrong: there's a different between being isolationistic and being jingoistic. The Alphatians are certainly the latter, and certainly hold non-Alphatians (except the Thonians) in "a minimum of high regard" - viewing them as suitable for enslavement and conquest. That's not isolationism, however. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:59:06 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > And in a thousand years, if the Alphatians were really interested in > > colonial conquests, they should have done a lot more than the limited > > amount of efforts they've made. > Oh, one other thing - just as the "canon" history doesn't describe every little skirmish, border war, or major war between Thyatis and Alphatia, it likely doesn't describe each and every effort of expansion by either of them - only the ones that impacted upon the history of "Gazeteer" nations are really covered. Otherwise. . .well, otherwise Mystaran history as a whole becomes *VERY* uneventful. Caroletti and I are making our own humble contribution to fleshing it out. But it would be. . . .odd indeed. . .to decide that the various Timelines of Mystara (notable one being the one in the HW set) describe all the significant (or insiginficant) things that went on. Most of the things that miss the cut likely do so because their long term impact was insignificant, but not because nothing happened. Otherwise, things become rather dull, IMNSHO - whole centuries go by throughout Mystara without a darned thing happening anywhere. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:09:29 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <006901bf766b$cd69bb60$6232140a@friendlynet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, jdaly wrote: > Alphatia's low population could be attributed to a new philosophy that has > sprung up, claiming that Mystara is swiftly becoming overcrowded. > > Then again, its more likely because most Alphatians don't want to be > bothered with large families. Perhaps the philosophy is more along the > lines that children stop your ability to "make something of yourself". > Alphatian aristocrats have small families, but most of the Alphatian population is servants and slaves, which the ruling class seems to want to have a copious supply of. Most slave states encourage slaves to breed if possible...it's cheaper than buying new ones. Which leads to the question...what percentage of the Alphatian populace is slaves? Do free Alphatians prefer to have semi-free servants or slaves? John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: RadCon in WA, anyone else attending? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I'll be at RadCon, a sci-fi/gaming convention at the DoubleTree Hotel in Pasco, WA this next weekend. I was wondering if anyone else was planning to attend? Yeah I know, not very likely, I only know a few other "listers" who are in WA state. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:29:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:09:29 -0600 Ranma Al'Thor writes: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, jdaly wrote: > Alphatian aristocrats have small families, but most of the Alphatian > population is servants and slaves, which the ruling class seems to > want to > have a copious supply of. Most slave states encourage slaves to > breed if > possible...it's cheaper than buying new ones. Yep. > Which leads to the question...what percentage of the Alphatian > populace is > slaves? >From what I recall from DotE, quite high actually. I got the impression that it was higher than in Thyatis, plus all non-spellcasters are practicaly slaves anyway. (I mean a wizard can go and cold-bloodedly fireball an entire peasant village, and then pay a few thousand gps to the closest relatives, if any survive the fireball that is. And there is no punishment for permenantly charming or dominating non-spellcasters that I can recall...) >Do free Alphatians prefer to have semi-free servants or > slaves? Probably anyone who can afford it would want slaves (preferably charmed or dominated). There are no restrictions on what an Alpher wizard can do with his slaves, as opposed to a very few almost annoying, but not really restictive, postulates on what you can't do to a "free" non-spellcaster. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:24:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Society MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > have a copious supply of. Most slave states encourage slaves to breed if > possible...it's cheaper than buying new ones. > Yes, but usually (though not always, but very usually) the slave population fails to reach replacement levels - thus nessessitating the continued "slave trade", because the "base" population not only fails to grow to keep up with potential increases in demand, but fails to maintain itself. Actually, depending on the distance & cost involved, it just *might* be cheaper to buy new (adult) ones than to raise them from childhood, with all that involves. > > Which leads to the question...what percentage of the Alphatian populace is > slaves? Do free Alphatians prefer to have semi-free servants or slaves? > Per DotE, about 20% of Alphatia's population can be considered "free" (the spellcasters) - that's per p.14 of the "Player's Guide to Alphatia." The rest are semi-free to one degree or another, but within a fairly wide range of possibilities - "Gentry" are fairly well off (but are the most wealthy of commoners - likely not many folk outside the spellcasting elites are rich enough to afford to keep 10,000gp in a bank vault, the requirement for being classified as "Gentry") - the Alphatian Servant class (probably the most numerous) is about as well off as Thyatis' slave class, as far as legal protections & rights go. One rung down are the Freemen, who own a farm, shop, or buisness. Unfortunately, DotE doesn't give a % break down of who fits where, except for noting the proportion of spellcasters (as mentioned above). If one was really hard-core they might be able to surmise likely proportions based upon the descriptions given and thus the likely # of persons outside the spellcasting class (which, for obvious reasons, probably likes to keep control of most of the wealth & business under their own ownership, if only because the income is needed to fund their other activities). Probably 2/3 or more fall into the Slave or Servant categories. Free Alphatians are probably indifferent as a whole regarding whether they are served by actual slaves or by Servants - each Servant *MUST* belong to the household of someone else of a higher class, so except for "SINless" on the fringe of society, someone must employ them, and no one is compelled to employ anyone - so that implys that the Alphatians are happy enough hiring Servants as owning Slaves. They probably use Slaves as menials, laborers, experiment fodder and the like, and members of the Servant class as general flunkies and/or skilled craftsmen. But that's just a guess. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:29:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Society - CORRECTION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > range of possibilities - "Gentry" are fairly well off (but are the most > wealthy of commoners - likely not many folk outside the spellcasting elites > are rich enough to afford to keep 10,000gp in a bank vault, the requirement > for being classified as "Gentry") - the Alphatian Servant class (probably > the most numerous) is about as well off as Thyatis' slave class, as far as > legal protections & rights go. One rung down are the Freemen, who own a > farm, shop, or buisness. > DOH! That sentance would seem to imply that the Freemen are one rung down from the Servant class - the reverse is true. The Freemen are one rung *UP* from the Servant class, one rung down from the *Gentry* class. My appology for any confusion this error on my part may have caused. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:36:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 3:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent that are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? And the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep the rest of the world from discovering this? :) >> I am strongly inclined to favor this option. The borders of the kingdoms of Alphatia that are firmly under Alphatian control are drawn in such a way that they appear to control the entire island -- but a more detailed analysis of the population figures does suggest that over two thirds of the population were not under the control of the central Alphatian government. I doubt that they were in open rebellion, however: more likely they just avoided the attention of imperial bureaucrats and tax collectors and thus could not be counted in any census, taxed, or otherwise put to work by anyone asso- ciated with the Empress. On the other hand, the option that the official population figures are close to accurate has ominous implications of its own. It is certainly possible that the Thyatian population estimates were inflated out of fear, much as American estimates of Soviet/Russion military capability were during the Cold War. The easiest thing to do would be to dismiss the estimate as an exaggeration with no basis in reality. However -- the Thyatians strike me as far too pragmatic to get things that badly wrong. Suppose that they indeed had good reason to believe that the actual population of Alphatia really should be three times what the Alphatians say that it currently is, but that the relevant information that would explain the discrepancy is not available to the Thyatians because of the inability of Thyatians in recent years to roam around the Alphatian continent and see what is really going on. In that case, the best theory might be that at some point in its history Alphatia had a population of 18,000,000 or greater, but that since then the population of that decadent empire has been declining, much as the population of Moorcock's Melnibone had been declining from a world power to a single city. By this theory, Alphatia should be filled with ghost towns and underpopulated cities, along with many formerly settled areas reverting to wilderness. If that is true, then a similar situation should be found on Bellissaria but not in any other Alphatian territories, where influences from other cultures would counteract that decline. When I get a chance I think I may put my own spreadsheet together and see whether I can identify any discrepancies at a more detailed level that might explain the situation better. For example, do we have reason to believe that the population figures for some Alphatian kingdoms are more accurate than those of others? Without working out the math yet, my preliminary hypothesis is that the population figures for Aquas and Floating Ar should be the most accurate (as both are artificial environments in which people are more easily tracked) and those for Blackheart and Limn should be among the least accurate. I should have a better idea after I do some research. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:44:12 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002140156.UAA28128@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > > Because I think they're wrong. It's only decisive if the Alphatians as a > > nation are actually interested in it. > > > The Alphatians are not uninterested in expansionism or Imperialism > DotE outright states that in time of war, most Alphatian aristocrats could care less. See Master Terari's speech to Gabriella. Individual Alphatian nobles and monarchs sometimes carry out projects, but the successful ones turn into more autonomous kingdoms and thus slip out of direct Imperial control. The unsuccessful ones are the ones that can't basically support themselves. If the Alphatians took a firm interest in their empire, the Confederacy of Dunadale wouldn't have had to raise its own armies to stop the Thyatians, the Alaysians wouldn't have been able to beat Thyatis AND Alphatia at the same time, etc, etc, etc. > > > > The dynamic I got from DotE is that most Alphatian aristocrats, who > > control the power of the country, have better things to do than war and > > conquest for some useless barbarian lands. See Master Terari's speech to > > Gabrielle where he explains why Alphatians don't live up to their > > potential. > > > Did they get their empire by accident? There seems to be a contradiction > here: on the one hand, the Alphatians have a whole lot of land which "must" > be filled to capacity by multiplying the size of their population. On the > other hand, how they aquired so much property becomes a mystery, because > they are proportetly unable or uninterested in expanding. > > Nations change over time. As per the history given in DotE, the early Alphatians set out to conquer themselves an empire. By 500 years after Landfall, they had enough land to satisfy themselves and turned inwards, becoming more self-absorbed and ceasing to try to expand. And they've tended to stay that way, although some individual emperors have made efforts to build up new territories. > focused for any length of time - but not because they don't care to conquer > (the Alphatians, as a people, are probably Mystara's most expansionistic) - > but because they are opposed and prevented from doing so. Not for lack of > trying. > > The Thyatians are far more militaristic as a nation. At least that's my impression of what DotE was trying to convey. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:48:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Also, Alphatia is manifestly *not* MChina I don't know about that. There are many things that make it China-like. Its a foreign, alien power. It is ancient, powerful, and yet very much a "sleeping beast". The people have almond-shaped eyes and oriental style houses. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:47:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > continent and see what is really going on. In that case, the best theory > might be that at some point in its history Alphatia had a population of > 18,000,000 or greater, but that since then the population of that decadent > empire has been declining, much as the population of Moorcock's > Melnibone had been declining from a world power to a single city. > Well, here we find a strong basis for agreement, because I for one have always been a proponent of the idea that Alphatia is M-Melnebone. (Anyone who's had the chance to read Chaosium's "Melebone" cannot help but be struck with the similarities). > When I get a chance I think I may put my own spreadsheet together and > see whether I can identify any discrepancies at a more detailed level that > might explain the situation better. > Well, that'd be fun. Give us something new to quibble over, if nothing else. 8-) I always like charts with figures and stuff (no one can tell, right?). Still, I'm going to tell folks in advance that I'm going to hold my position (baring some unexceptionally good argument to the contrary - I mean, I can change my mind as easily as the next guy. But as we can all see by the fact that no one has really changed their opinion during any of these debates - neither I nor "the next guy(s)" - that doesn't bespeak well of such chances. . .) But it'll be fun. Btw, I *did* do a Spreadsheet for Thyatis awhile back, but it was mainland only and sort of half-assed (meaning not a hell of a lot of effort put into it. However, did manage to get a population aproximating what it's "supposed" to have). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:57:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If the Alphatians took a firm interest in their empire, the Confederacy of > Dunadale wouldn't have had to raise its own armies to stop the Thyatians, > the Alaysians wouldn't have been able to beat Thyatis AND Alphatia at the > same time, etc, etc, etc. > The Confederacy of Dunadale had to do more than just "raise its own armies" to stop the Thyatians - in essence, they had to "beat the enemy by becoming the enemy" - note the full description of Dunadale. This, IMO, tends to imply more was at work than simply Alphatian indifference to the fate of its Empire - their social structure is indeed an impediment. The "Confederacy" in point of fact, ends up resembling Thyatis more than it does its own motherland: The spellcasting "King" has no exceptional legal position, folks in Dunadale can do such un-Alphatian things as vote to determine how they are governed, etc etc. It isn't simply a matter of all they needed was the ability to raise their own Army because Alphatia (proper) couldn't be bothered to lift a finger on their behalf - no one in Dunadale (and elsewhere) really wanted to be Alphatian when it came right down to it (see DotE re that, as well, "the pathetic Thyatian habit" of granting "rights" to people making it more attractive). This tends to imply, if anything, that significant efforts have to be exerted to keep most places under control (and only really in Dunadale, and in Stonewall, has this social problem been "solved" - the rest of the places have no similar situation. It isn't likely that the rulers of Alphatia want to see the rest of their thing transformed into some sort of cultural/social equivalent of Thyatis). As for places like Alaysia going free: well, for one thing, note that this is Gaz2 we're talking about, not Gaz12 - Ylaruam was designed before the details of either Alphatia or Thyatis were worked out. Also, this is "de rigur" for most KW places: the "glorious revolt" against this or that "Imperial Opressor State" (IOS). It's repeated elsewhere. The general retroactive excuse used when Alphatia or Thyatis are the IOS in question is that they tend to be busy devoting most of their energies/strength against each other, not devoting time to keeping some rather insignificant posessions under control (in the grand scheme of things, neither Empire's colonies in Alaysia were that significant). Simply keeping the rest of the Alphatian Empire under it's thumb, preventing them (in essence) from "pulling a Lucinius" would take effort, not be something an indifferent, inattentive folk could manage. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:05:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <43.f1fd5f.25d8c42b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-02-13 3:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jsmill@WANS.NET writes: > > << Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent that > are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? And > the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep the > rest of the world from discovering this? :) >> > > I am strongly inclined to favor this option. The borders of the kingdoms of > Alphatia that are firmly under Alphatian control are drawn in such a way > that they appear to control the entire island -- but a more detailed analysis > of the population figures does suggest that over two thirds of the population > were not under the control of the central Alphatian government. I doubt that Historically speaking, Aristocratically dominated countries tend to have tax evasion out the wazoo. There was also a tendency to fix tax assessments at a fixed level at a given date, which inflation would then whittle away to meaninglessness. > When I get a chance I think I may put my own spreadsheet together and > see whether I can identify any discrepancies at a more detailed level that > might explain the situation better. For example, do we have reason to > believe that the population figures for some Alphatian kingdoms are more > accurate than those of others? Without working out the math yet, my > preliminary hypothesis is that the population figures for Aquas and Floating > Ar should be the most accurate (as both are artificial environments in > which people are more easily tracked) and those for Blackheart and Limn > should be among the least accurate. I should have a better idea after I > do some research. > Ones that are too high: Draco Ones I find quite reasonable: Ambur, Aquas, Floating Ar, Limn, Blackheart, Stoutheart (I think that's the name...the Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling one that was just recently settled), Vertiloch Debatable: Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from incursions from Blackheart) Ones that are probably too low: Everything else, especially Bellissaria John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:17:14 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Also, Alphatia is manifestly *not* MChina > > I don't know about that. There are many things that make it China-like. > Its a foreign, alien power. It is ancient, powerful, and yet very much a > "sleeping beast". The people have almond-shaped eyes and oriental style > houses. > Where does it say they have "oriental style houses"? If anything, it's a doped-out beast, not a "sleeping" beast. Neither did China usually "sleep" - that's a modern conception based upon it's 19th century existance. No, David Knott hit it on the head - Alphatia is M-Melnebone, not M-China. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:41:43 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:05 PM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Ones that are too high: >Draco You mean Stonewall, right? (Draco's the capitol city. :) I am fully in agreement with this one. It's the biggest offender of all, really. >Ones I find quite reasonable: >Ambur, Aquas, Floating Ar, Limn, Blackheart, Stoutheart (I think that's >the name...the Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling one that was just recently >settled), Vertiloch Agreed on most of the above, with the possible exception of Vertiloch. Most of the Kerothar mountains there should be completely uninhabited, which makes Stoutfellow's population pretty agreeable. Floating Ar is a tough call, just because we don't know how much land area is available on the folating islands (the listing in the PWAs has only 48 square miles, which would seem to indicate that a *lot* more of the population lives down on the ground than DotE would have us believe). I'd like to see Aquas spread out a bit more than seems to be indicated in DotE, but given that we don't have any undersea maps of exactly what is down there, I can't really comment too much on this. >Debatable: >Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher >population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from incursions >from Blackheart) I'd say it's definitely too low. I can't see Blackheart as an antagonistic nation at all, given the ease with which they could be cut off from the outside world (trade blockades) and since there is only one settlement of note to conquer/destroy. While monsters emerging from the woods and attacking outside nations are probably not an unusual occurrence, I can't see that they'd be in numbers large enough to prompt anyone to mount an aggressive movement against the people living there. >Ones that are probably too low: >Everything else, especially Bellissaria Haven for sure. The rest I could go either way on, depending on how one chose to regard the settlement procedures of the Alphatian colonists... ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:40:17 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What the heck is this string about? i'm all confused now, cause when i first looked at it, it was about some city or something, and now it's like a census on the world of mystara or something, isn't it? I signed on today and WHOA, had like 30 emails in a row titled Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria), and i guess this makes one more, hehe. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:51:24 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What the heck is this string about? i'm all confused now, cause when i > first looked at it, it was about some city or something, and now it's like > a census on the world of mystara or something, isn't it? > No, not a census on the world of Mystara - just one of the nations of Mystara. > I signed on today and WHOA, had like 30 emails in a row > It's the begining of the Alphatia Re-Design Project. I think we can assume by the volume of interest in this thread and similar ones on other topics that there is large enough interest. So, which of you fine fellows wants to sign up for the Alphatia Re-Design project, and make this more than vague musings? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:56:42 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Solaria? (was Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 8:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: << Because otherwise, I have to imagine Alphatia being like Solaria, which isn't my impression from DotE as to how it works. >> Okay -- what is Solaria, and what characteristics does it have that are relevant to this discussion of Alphatian population? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:56:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 4:46:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET writes: << Alphatia's low population could be attributed to a new philosophy that has sprung up, claiming that Mystara is swiftly becoming overcrowded. Then again, its more likely because most Alphatians don't want to be bothered with large families. Perhaps the philosophy is more along the lines that children stop your ability to "make something of yourself". >> There is a much simpler explanation rooted in the lack of legal recognition of marriage. If that indeed implies that fathers are under no legal or moral imperative to take care of their children, then poorer Alphatian women would have a powerful disincentive to become pregnant. If we postulate that the Alphatians have a sophisticated knowledge of the properties of medicinal herbs and that these herbs include effective contraceptives, then the birth rate could easily fall below the replacement rate. In a message dated 2000-02-13 6:05:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelmysteria@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Perhaps the given population densities should be taken as Noble-Only Figures, this would better explain where Alphatia would get 1,000 36th (D&D, or 20th AD&D) Level Wizards in the Grand Council. Alphatian consensus only counts full-citizens, so only magic-using people, they accounts for 20% of population according to cannon sources, this figure could be quintupled for mainland nations to get full-population. For rim-nations like Esterhold and Norwold a more conservative multiplication would be in order. Response? >> Except for the nitpick that most Aristocrats (the lowest rank of spellcaster) should not be counted as "nobles", I am inclined to agree with you -- if we treat the census figures as counts of spellcasters only, then the population densities become much more believable. Here is a test for your theory: Check the population density of Shiye-Lawr. Since most of its people are elves, nearly all of them should qualify as aristocrats, and as a result its population density should be significantly higher than that of other kingdoms. Is it? In a message dated 2000-02-13 8:43:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: << The key thing is that I don't see Alphatia as so tightly unified as to be able to bring its full resources to bear. The Emperor isn't an absolute monarch, he's first among equals, and most Alphatians aren't particularly interested in conquest. That would require missing the boating season, you see. >> It is possible but rare for the Emperor of Alphatia to unite enough of his empire to overrun Thyatis. Twice in Alphatian history (960 AC and 1009 AC) they were able to reach Thyatis City itself. The first assault fell apart when confronted by stiff resistance from Thincol and his fellow gladiators, while the second was stopped by Thincol's surrender -- which allowed the Thyatians to escape further harm from the Alphatians because the latter finally diverted their forces toward their supposed main objective in Glantri. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:15:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blach... it was like 50 mails by the time I jumped on, and I don't find this discussion of much use. Call me a killjoy, but if it has to do with an ongoing campaign and is needed to resolve something, cool. Otherwise, I think it's somewhat a waste to discuss. I love Mystara. I love gaming in it. But ongoing arguments and discussions about aspects that do not directly relate to gameplay I don't enjoy, because I like PLAYING the game. Most players are not going to say "Hey! I just realized that the population of this city/region is far lower given it's size ratio! I feel gyped and I don't want to play anymore!" If you're working on something for war, like the size of armies, number of conscriptions available, that's cool, but most players are not going to care about such things. In a recent issue of DungeonCraft in Dragon magazine, they said "Don't design more than you need". I think this is something we should all keep in mind. Mystara has a vast wealth of material for it already, which intimidates most non-Mystara players I know. I don't object to adding to it, but I think it should be done in the course of gameplay. Because that's where the best stories lie. IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" (Okay, so some of us do have our issues with particular elements...) James Ruhland wrote: > > I think we can assume by the volume of interest in this thread and similar > ones on other topics that there is large enough interest. So, which of you > fine fellows wants to sign up for the Alphatia Re-Design project, and make > this more than vague musings? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:41:10 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-13 11:15:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, ironwolf@EWA.NET writes: << Blach... it was like 50 mails by the time I jumped on, and I don't find this discussion of much use. Call me a killjoy, but if it has to do with an ongoing campaign and is needed to resolve something, cool. Otherwise, I think it's somewhat a waste to discuss. >> On the other hand, much can be said for having the answers to obvious questions ready before they are needed. Certainly the situation of adven- turers wandering around mainland Alphatia is one that could occur in many campaigns. What would they find there? My own speculations suggest two rather interesting possibilities: either a vital but anarchic society that mostly ignores the central imperial government (if the official population figure is tripled) or a decadent nation filled with ghost towns and abandoned buildings (if the tripled figure was true at some point in the past but the official figure is currently accurate). In any case, the historical deeds of Alphatia are fairly well known and well established, and we can make certain deductions about that empire's relative power based on the history alone, without regard to the population figures. The actual population would affect the interpretation of that level of power, not the level of power itself. If the official figures are correct, then Alphatia is only slightly less efficient than Thyatis and must use its full power to overwhelm Thyatis. If the official figures are low, then Alphatia is grossly inefficient but requires the use of a smaller fraction of its potential power to overwhelm Thyatis. Either way, the balance of power does favor Alphatia slightly, as Alphatia twice reached Thyatis City but Thyatis was never able to threaten Sundsvall directly. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:54:26 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott wrote: > > On the other hand, much can be said for having the answers to obvious > questions ready before they are needed. Certainly the situation of adven- > turers wandering around mainland Alphatia is one that could occur in many > campaigns. What would they find there? My own speculations suggest > two rather interesting possibilities: either a vital but anarchic society > that mostly ignores the central imperial government (if the official > population figure is tripled) or a decadent nation filled with ghost towns > and abandoned buildings (if the tripled figure was true at some point in > the past but the official figure is currently accurate). > Well myself, I figure that I'll deal with it when I come to it. All the rest is pointless boring drivel. For me the adventure comes first, the malleable nature of facts in this matter work for me because Alphatia is what I want it to be at any given time. If I need to get some continuity going I'll do it as I go along and keep notes. Naturally I'll share them on my website so anyone else who's dealt with a similar issue can take a look. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:59:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Blach... it was like 50 mails by the time I jumped on, and I don't find this > discussion of much use. > But ongoing arguments and discussions about > aspects that do not directly relate to gameplay > Well, the good thing about focusing people on an actual project is that it would cut down on the 50 or so speculative mails, circular pointless discussions, etc. It's apparent that, though Alphatia is vaguely popular among Mystarans, people are disatisfied with it in many particulars - this person finds the population too low, this other person finds DotE describing too un-egalitarian a society, not nice enough, that person feels they should be respectful of their fighters, and others feel there should even be Paladins and Avengers on the Grand Council. These vague, meandering, circular discussions are more or less continuous, and topics never truely are settled - there are simply pauses, of various lengths, before they revive and are discussed again, on more or less the same terms. An Alphatian Re-Design Project could resolve these things, so that we don't keep filling people's mailboxes with it. First thing that can be done is Re-Designing the populations of each Alphatian Kingdom and region, to produce something that satisfies people who are bugged by the "canon" populations. Then you, Melf, and the rest of the list members will (hopefully) never be inundated by mails on this topic again. Next can be an adoption of a more satisfying Council structure, a more satisfying Alphatian military, etc etc down the line until everything is resolved. It will result, most likely, in an Alphatia that resembles the old "canon" one more or less in name only (and in geography), but in the end at least all these issues will reach some sort of resolution. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:40:49 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: The Gemstone Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a little idea that's been bouncing around in the black hole some people like to call my brain for a while. The basic idea is to go through issues of Dragon Magazine and make notes on how various articles could be used in a Mystara campaign (this was partially inspired by my recent purchase of the dragon CD archive). and, of course, I decided to call this little project the Gemstone Dragon. Anyway rather than blather some more, here's the Gemstone Dragon #268 (the latest issue). Please comment on this! Is this a good idea, bad idea, what? Countdown to Third Edition: Wizards and Magic (p.24) Not much to say here, but the counterspell rules might make mage duels a lot more fun... Ill gotten gains (p.27) Not much to say here either. Most of this can be used as is, though the gaz11 merchant system might be preferable or used to complement the ideas presented here... What Do You Know?:Basic Skills for every Player (p.36) Most of this can be used without modification. The Armory Annex: New AD&D Game Weapons (p.42) Here are some suggested regions where the new weapons can be found: Ankus: Sind Arrow, Battering: This could be popular among clerics of Vanya and other warlike Immortals. Arrow, Trapezoid: this sounds like a perfect weapon for elves, and thus might be relatively common in nations frenquented by them. Bolt, Battering and Trapezoid: See above. The trapezoid bolt is likely to be a human adaption to the elven arrow. Brandistock: Sounds like a great weapon for Darokinian merchants. Cestrosphendone: The Millenians (and their descendants in Thyatis) might concievably use this weapon. Chakram: This should be ommited, due to its association with Xena. :) Seriously, could be found in Sind. Feruzue: Might be used by the myoshimans or the MOrientians... Francisa: Could have been used by the Traldar... Jitte: Myoshima, MOrient. Simmilar, though less oriental, weapons could be used by police in more civilized nations. Might also be used by clerics of war Immortals. Kuda-Yari: Like the Brandistock, could be used in Darokin. Nagegema: Simialr weapons might be used for castle defense in Norwold or Karameikos. Navja: Seems like a natural for the Savage Coast. Sword Stick: Like the Brandistock, could be used in Darokin. Before the Bow: Archaic Missile Weapons for the AD&D Game (p.46) Many of these ancient weapons could be found in the Hollow World. Greek Fire seems a natural for Thyatis. Secrets of the Brotherhood of True Flame (p.50) Seems like it could be dropped wholesale into Ylaruam, like many Al-Qadim things. Some spells and magic items might be appropriate for Flaems... Greyhawk Grimoires (p.70) Easily converted, just change the place names. Kieren could be from any nation as the campaign requires, though Glantri or Alphatia make the most sense. Bazaar of the Bizarre: Power at a Price (p.74) The Chitin Helm sounds like it might be made by the hivebrood. Maybe it also connects the user to the Hive...? Nothing special to say about the others. Dragon's Bestiary: The Lizard Folk (p.80) These creatures seem naturals for Carnifex/Serpentine experiments, and could be likely found in Davania The New Adventures of Volo: Lost Princess Road (p.88) Eugh... I'm not touching this one without a full radiation suit and hazardous duty pay! Volunteers, anyone... :) FX Artifacts (p.99) I'm not an Alternity person, so I can't say much about this one. Presumably they could be used for Blackmoor/Federation relics. Sage Advice (p.112) I'd just like to point out that the deck of many things question was submitted by Yours Truely. :) That's it... Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:06:58 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Matthew Wang Subject: Re: The Gemstone Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aaron, I think this is a great idea. There are alot of articles in Dragon that have great potential in Mystara. Should i begin an update of issues after #250? Matt Wang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:48:16 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The problem that most people overlook with Mystara population, is that most lands are medivel based and populations are densely packed.So a nation like Thyatis may have large land holdings but most of that land is either wild or scarcely settled and only lands that are near cities or fortified areas will have large populations. Also is the fact that humans or demi-humans are not the masters of all the lands around them. Orcs, Goblins, and other humanoids also help keep populations down by limiting the growth of borderland settelments. also adding to the problom is these are based on the nations census reports and not everybody can be accounted for. >From: James Ruhland >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:02:06 -0600 > > > Let's look at population densities for these countries (I'm using > > Poor Wizard's Almanac II) > > >This is why, IMO, if one is going to "adjust" upwards the population of a >given area (say, Alphatia), then one needs to similarly "adjust" the areas >of the KW nations, so that they do not lapse into irellivance, and so that >the geopolitical dynamic of Mystara is preserved - so that every nation's >population & presumed geopolitical influence remains roughly in proportion >to what exists in "canon". > >OR > >One could radically decrease the size of certain areas, so that the >populations that are given for them create realistic densities (adjusting >certain regions so that the hexes are assumed to be 8 mile hexes rather >than 24 mile hexes would fullfill this, especially since most of the >regions often in question are islands, and "downsizing" them in this >fashion wouldn't contort continents) - one would just have more sea around >them. Making them smaller in size but keeping the current population (the >"canon" population) hardly erodes their presumed power, which is already as >great if not greater than any other nation in the Mystaran community of >nations. > >Otherwise, the "fix" is more absurd than the "cure", because you put in one >nation more people than are in the entire total "canon" populations of >known nations on both the surface and in the hollow world. The totals I >gave should demonstrate that. . . > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:33:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does one similarly assume that other nations only count their upper classes > in the census? No, but I noticed that in PWA the population of Aquas is given as 40,000 in the Geographic Overview and then as 135,000 in the Armies of the World section. Now aquas would have proportionally more wizards. So I think a factor 5 would be right for the mainland, perhaps excluding Ar which also has about 1:2 for upper and lower Ar. > I suppose another way to do it would be to assume that the Alphatians don't > count their slaves in their census figures. Thus one can have lots of > additional people, but they are all slaves. 8-) This is what the Roman Empire did. Only citizens where counted, so servant and slave class were excluded. This too would at least triple the mainland population. Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:45:22 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have a small problem with David Knott's message. see, I think the Alphatians are to "cocky?" to let even the smallest Baron remain exempt from there own Imperial laws. Simply because this would show a weakness in there ruling class and military classes. If they were to let even petty rulers slip through there fingers, then no providence would ever remain under the iron fist of Alphatia. Bill Manley a.k.a. KINGLOSSER(I know "loser" is spelled wrong, but don't let that discredit my rants) >From: Ranma Al'Thor >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:05:24 -0600 > >On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > > > In a message dated 2000-02-13 3:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > jsmill@WANS.NET writes: > > > > << Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent >that > > are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? >And > > the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep >the > > rest of the world from discovering this? :) >> > > > > I am strongly inclined to favor this option. The borders of the >kingdoms of > > Alphatia that are firmly under Alphatian control are drawn in such a way > > that they appear to control the entire island -- but a more detailed >analysis > > of the population figures does suggest that over two thirds of the >population > > were not under the control of the central Alphatian government. I doubt >that > >Historically speaking, Aristocratically dominated countries tend to have >tax evasion out the wazoo. There was also a tendency to fix tax >assessments at a fixed level at a given date, which inflation would then >whittle away to meaninglessness. > > > When I get a chance I think I may put my own spreadsheet together and > > see whether I can identify any discrepancies at a more detailed level >that > > might explain the situation better. For example, do we have reason to > > believe that the population figures for some Alphatian kingdoms are more > > accurate than those of others? Without working out the math yet, my > > preliminary hypothesis is that the population figures for Aquas and >Floating > > Ar should be the most accurate (as both are artificial environments in > > which people are more easily tracked) and those for Blackheart and Limn > > should be among the least accurate. I should have a better idea after I > > do some research. > > >Ones that are too high: >Draco > >Ones I find quite reasonable: >Ambur, Aquas, Floating Ar, Limn, Blackheart, Stoutheart (I think that's >the name...the Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling one that was just recently >settled), Vertiloch > >Debatable: >Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher >population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from incursions >from Blackheart) > >Ones that are probably too low: >Everything else, especially Bellissaria > > > > > > > >John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas >ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu >rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html >rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ > >"The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job >it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected >from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, >but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. >I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." >--Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:44:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must say that a larger population makes the maintainance of an Alphatian military as described in PWA II more believable. I would think that ALphatia wouldn't be able to raise 20% of their population as military, but sooner 2%. even in time of war ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:50:55 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is my first time on the list and I thought that 50000 mails was normal! so, set me straight. is this normal? P.S. I would like to help in the International Census of Mystara. >From: IronWolf >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia Re-Design Project >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:15:26 -0800 > >Blach... it was like 50 mails by the time I jumped on, and I don't find >this >discussion of much use. Call me a killjoy, but if it has to do with an >ongoing >campaign and is needed to resolve something, cool. Otherwise, I think it's >somewhat a waste to discuss. > >I love Mystara. I love gaming in it. But ongoing arguments and discussions >about >aspects that do not directly relate to gameplay I don't enjoy, because I >like >PLAYING the game. Most players are not going to say "Hey! I just realized >that >the population of this city/region is far lower given it's size ratio! I >feel >gyped and I don't want to play anymore!" If you're working on something for >war, >like the size of armies, number of conscriptions available, that's cool, >but >most players are not going to care about such things. > >In a recent issue of DungeonCraft in Dragon magazine, they said "Don't >design >more than you need". I think this is something we should all keep in mind. >Mystara has a vast wealth of material for it already, which intimidates >most >non-Mystara players I know. I don't object to adding to it, but I think it >should be done in the course of gameplay. Because that's where the best >stories >lie. > >IronWolf > >"It's Specularum, damn it!" (Okay, so some of us do have our issues with >particular elements...) > >James Ruhland wrote: > > > > I think we can assume by the volume of interest in this thread and >similar > > ones on other topics that there is large enough interest. So, which of >you > > fine fellows wants to sign up for the Alphatia Re-Design project, and >make > > this more than vague musings? > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:52:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ones that are too high: > Draco Perhaps. > Ones I find quite reasonable: > Ambur I agree > Aquas Like I said in a previous post, PWA suggests 40,000 wizards, 135,000 total (Post-WotI) > Floating Ar Agreed > Limn Might be some more goblins and stuff, they seem to breed like bunnies > Blackheart I'd think the wizards would have more slaves and stuff, so I think 50,000 is the population of Shraek, plus registered wizards on estates. > Stoutheart (I think that's > the name...the Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling one that was just recently > settled) Agreed, though there should be some more humans (from Stonewall etc) > Vertiloch I think Vertiloch is completely urbanized, so might be somewhat higher. > Debatable: > Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher > population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from incursions > from Blackheart) The Attrition would seem unlikely, since most elves use magic, and are thus protected by imperial law. Perhaps they would have 100-150,000 people. But how high was the population of Alfheim? > Ones that are probably too low: > Everything else, especially Bellissaria But Qeodhar, Esterhold, the Yanniveys and Norwold would receive a smaller multiplication factor, and the Alatians also somewhat. Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:57:15 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Its just more of my WW1 analogy... British Royal Navy in WW1 - 25 odd >> dreadnoughts, about the same again in cruisers, 80 odd destroyers... >> shameless me. Well, that explains the figure anyway :) >> >Well, you see - that's another area where we tend to come at things from >different directions, because you see the Alphatian Empire as analogous to >the British Empire, but IMO DotE tends to imply that Thyatis is more >closely an analogy of the British Empire (for one thing, it's efficiently >run. For another thing, Retebius Air Fleet/"RAF" mean anything to any one? >For a third thing, Thyatian ministries with names like "The Foreign Office" >and "The Home Office" et all should evoke some sense of familiarity to >anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the British government). Well, I'm of the opinion that the Alphatian Empire is more like the USA personally, but we've locked horns on this issue in the past so I won't resurrect that one :) I had considered the Heldannic skynavy when I pulled that figure out of the air - the Heldanners have about 25 warbirds. Given the small size of the Territories I figured that around 100+ Alphatian skyships wouldnt be a problem - bearing in mind that though Men o War are big and difficult to make, the majority wouldnt be up to that standard. Especially after 50% of them have been burned in Aasla. (Hmm, just thought of the Pearl Harbour connotations there - maybe Alphatia really IS the USA? :) And then I just looked to WW1 for a likely lineup of big ships versus little ships to get that ratio of 25/25/80 for big/medium/little ships. Plus with my WW1esque WotI it seemed appropriate :) To be honest, I completely neglected the surface fleet in those figures. It could be likely that some of those 25/25/80 ships are in fact surface going vessels. I assume that the Alphie regular surface fleet is pretty pathetic (if it wasnt in WotI they just would have sailed it up to Thyatis City, but it couldnt be done) so if you say perhaps half of those ships are surface vessels maybe that would be more realistic. In wartime I imagine the Alphies would requisition ships for troop transport, which would be the main function of the surface fleet. I did note the RAF immediately... as I think I've said before, the RAF sounds like a ripoff of the varsity clubs in the real world RAF in WW2. The sort of place where to qualify joining you are given sherry to excess, taken down the pub and checked to see if your parlance remains that of a gentleman... Re. the British Government stuff, I havnt really delved into the governmental side of Thyatis too much (Thyatis as I run it is probably more like Milenia - I run adventures there quite a bit and probably unconsciously I portray Thyatis as being very similar) but I did notice that the Glantrian civil service seemed very British to me. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:58:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An Alphatian Re-Design Project could resolve these things Let's do this. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:10:47 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Ironwolf I would like to point out that some people like a world that is consistant and playable. I do not know how this project started, but I think that somebody was working on something small, like reorginizing the worlds armies to kill a high level PC that got out of control, and wanted someones opinion on pop. levels because he/she was falling short on cannon fodder, then everybody that had the same consernse for the Alphatian Imperial Treasure Vault(because that is were all the attention is focused, as if thoughs pompus a**es need the attention)chimmed in. now I don't want to get off on a rant here, but if some careless DM can't control his PC's, then ask the list how to kill Immortals and move on. I mean, what's the point in starting the Great Mystara Census Poll if your only starting it to bolster the world's united armed forces ranks if your mighty PC is only going to slaughter them to the last man and woman. Now how is the pop. levels going to look eh? >From: IronWolf >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia Re-Design Project >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:15:26 -0800 > >Blach... it was like 50 mails by the time I jumped on, and I don't find >this >discussion of much use. Call me a killjoy, but if it has to do with an >ongoing >campaign and is needed to resolve something, cool. Otherwise, I think it's >somewhat a waste to discuss. > >I love Mystara. I love gaming in it. But ongoing arguments and discussions >about >aspects that do not directly relate to gameplay I don't enjoy, because I >like >PLAYING the game. Most players are not going to say "Hey! I just realized >that >the population of this city/region is far lower given it's size ratio! I >feel >gyped and I don't want to play anymore!" If you're working on something for >war, >like the size of armies, number of conscriptions available, that's cool, >but >most players are not going to care about such things. > >In a recent issue of DungeonCraft in Dragon magazine, they said "Don't >design >more than you need". I think this is something we should all keep in mind. >Mystara has a vast wealth of material for it already, which intimidates >most >non-Mystara players I know. I don't object to adding to it, but I think it >should be done in the course of gameplay. Because that's where the best >stories >lie. > >IronWolf > >"It's Specularum, damn it!" (Okay, so some of us do have our issues with >particular elements...) > >James Ruhland wrote: > > > > I think we can assume by the volume of interest in this thread and >similar > > ones on other topics that there is large enough interest. So, which of >you > > fine fellows wants to sign up for the Alphatia Re-Design project, and >make > > this more than vague musings? > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:21:53 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The problem with changing things as you go is your ongoing campain seems to jump and skip with notable gaps in the facts. I'm not trying to fault the way you DM your games, I don't really care. But it seems to me that it would be more work to "change it as you go" than to get alot of people together and iron the problem out and put the baby to bed. No harm in haveing an opinion, and I like some of your input. I hope we can be friends King. >From: IronWolf >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia Re-Design Project >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:54:26 -0800 > >David Knott wrote: > > > > On the other hand, much can be said for having the answers to obvious > > questions ready before they are needed. Certainly the situation of >adven- > > turers wandering around mainland Alphatia is one that could occur in >many > > campaigns. What would they find there? My own speculations suggest > > two rather interesting possibilities: either a vital but anarchic >society > > that mostly ignores the central imperial government (if the official > >population figure is tripled) or a decadent nation filled with ghost towns > > and abandoned buildings (if the tripled figure was true at some point in > > the past but the official figure is currently accurate). > > >Well myself, I figure that I'll deal with it when I come to it. All the >rest is >pointless boring drivel. For me the adventure comes first, the malleable >nature >of facts in this matter work for me because Alphatia is what I want it to >be at >any given time. If I need to get some continuity going I'll do it as I go >along >and keep notes. Naturally I'll share them on my website so anyone else >who's >dealt with a similar issue can take a look. > >IronWolf > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:38:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: Mental Asylums in the Known World In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! > iirc there is an asylum or two in ravenloft... See "The Nightmare Lands". > i think that darokin, minrothad, >thyatis, IMC there is an asylum in Thyatis, a big tower somewhere in the slums. It is nearly nothing more than a prison for the mentally deranged, and for some it�s a freak show. It is run by priests of Ixion. (Although at the moment I can�t recall why. probably Ixion�s priest are arrogant enough to try the best and make it worse.) Celarly mentally ill criminals are sent to the Tower. *************************************************** Peter "Mr. XXL" Balazs Wurlitzerg. 37/12 1160 Wien a8927259@unet.univie.ac.at http://radon.mat.univie.ac.at/~pbalazs **************************************************** ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 05:20:21 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: I need help!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have losed my rules cyclopedia. I'm currently trying to locate one but that is near impossible. what I really need right now are the war machine rules. so, what i'm asking for is help with finding either the book or the rules I need. I have nearly killed myself trying to find these rules on the web, but my search is not in vein, I found rules on ariel and naval combat thanks to whoever posted those rules on mystara home. thank you King. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:38:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my view everybody's Skynavy estimations are somewhat conservative, not that I'm trying to steer the conversation, but just to put in my own opinion, let's give some perspective: Ierendi has 12 magical fireships at Honor Island Neatharum has 16 flying sailing ships Heldannic Territories has some 20 warbirds Aquas has 46 submersible galleys Thyatis built the Imperial Eagle in just a year and now in PWA 1016 has something like 4 skyships, Zandor build 3 Alphatian Warbird at the turn of a hand, King Xanthun of tiny rim-nation Blackrock even has a Man-of-War. Alphatia has had two millenia to build up their Skynavy, remember wooden ships last for many decades, some are used for more than 50 years (check you Royal Navy and United Republic Navy histories). If we establish marine complements at: 250 for a Man-of-War 100 for a Frigate 50 for a Corvette and smaller I think they'd be built roughly in 1:1:4 proportionality. The Imperial Forces would number roughly 200.000 at any time, half would be navy and most of the navy would be skyships, the regular ships would remain in port or be used for other things, to be manned in wartime, so let's say a little less half of the navy is Skyships. Makes about 50,000 Airmarines. Dividing leaves 90 ship per proportionality factor, so.. 90 Man-of-War 90 Frigates 360 Corvettes and smaller A standard unit of the Alphatian military has 5,000 regular troops. So the whole Skynavy will consist of 9 divisions. Each will have 8 Men of War in two squadrons 10 Frigates in one squadron 40 Corvettes in two squadrons Each squadron having 1,000 marines This makes the final number of ships: Man-of-War 80 Frigates 100 Corvettes 400 The nine divisions would have been assigned: Aasla, Haven 4 (Home Fleet) Sundsvall, Vertiloch 1 (Imperial Command) Skyreach, Ar 1 (1 squadron on floating islands, remainder on ground, Northern Command) Eagret, Greenspur 2 (Southern Command) Rardish, Randel 1 (Eastern Approaches) Though the numbers are high, DotI does suggest numbers in these orders and so does the ease at which Thyatis is building the ships after only a few years of experience. Let me know what you think, but constructive comment, please, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:41:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: I need help!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They'll probably have a copy at http://www.dragontrove.com Try there or at http://www.titangames.com good luck, Michael III Mysteria ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Manley To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] I need help!! > I have losed my rules cyclopedia. I'm currently trying to locate one but > that is near impossible. what I really need right now are the war machine > rules. so, what i'm asking for is help with finding either the book or the > rules I need. I have nearly killed myself trying to find these rules on the > web, but my search is not in vein, I found rules on ariel and naval combat > thanks to whoever posted those rules on mystara home. > > thank you > King. > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:57:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Military Matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to make another point on the Thy vs Alph military discussion: People keep insisting that the Alphatian military is too powerful and should be whimpy, well... DotE insists that the Imperial Alphatian Military is good QUALITY but small QUANTITY, because of disinterested nobles and decentralized government. Now if I look in PWA II I see an Alphatian Imperial military of: 1 Imperial Guard @ 5,300 troops = 5,300 15 Imperial Force Divisions @ 3,727 troops = 56,000 For a total of 60,000 Imperial troops At a population of roughly 5,000,000 that's just over 1% Imperial Forces The remaining units are national forces maintained because of wartime conditions. Now if I look at Thyatis, it's supposed to have: 2 Emperor's Cohorts @ 3,310 troops = 6,620 23 Regular Cohorts @ 3,310 troops = 76,130 25 Imperial Fleets @ 1,600 troops = 40,000 For a total of 122,750 Imperial Troops (supposedly this is the Standing Level, in wartime Imperial Defender units are activated). At a population of 3,001,000 this is a whooping 4%, far above the nominal 2% standing level. With the ongoing discussion about the unbelievably low level of the Alphatian population I think these figures are more than believable. Each nation would have, in addition to these forces, reserve units, special units like the Retebius Air Force, the Knights of Air, Alphatian flying monster mounted troops etc. Responses? Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:08:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It is also stated somewhere that most of Alphatia's skyfleet is made up mostly of priviteers and would be very hard to document considering that almost everybody in the land can use magic. I believe I read this in the Champions of Mystara Box Set. >From: Michael III Mysteria >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:38:55 +0100 > >In my view everybody's Skynavy estimations are somewhat conservative, not >that I'm trying to steer the conversation, but just to put in my own >opinion, let's give some perspective: > >Ierendi has 12 magical fireships at Honor Island >Neatharum has 16 flying sailing ships >Heldannic Territories has some 20 warbirds >Aquas has 46 submersible galleys >Thyatis built the Imperial Eagle in just a year and now in PWA 1016 has >something like 4 skyships, Zandor build 3 Alphatian Warbird at the turn of >a >hand, King Xanthun of tiny rim-nation Blackrock even has a Man-of-War. > >Alphatia has had two millenia to build up their Skynavy, remember wooden >ships last for many decades, some are used for more than 50 years (check >you >Royal Navy and United Republic Navy histories). >If we establish marine complements at: >250 for a Man-of-War >100 for a Frigate >50 for a Corvette and smaller > >I think they'd be built roughly in 1:1:4 proportionality. >The Imperial Forces would number roughly 200.000 at any time, half would be >navy and most of the navy would be skyships, the regular ships would remain >in port or be used for other things, to be manned in wartime, so let's say >a >little less half of the navy is Skyships. Makes about 50,000 Airmarines. >Dividing leaves 90 ship per proportionality factor, so.. > >90 Man-of-War >90 Frigates >360 Corvettes and smaller > >A standard unit of the Alphatian military has 5,000 regular troops. >So the whole Skynavy will consist of 9 divisions. > >Each will have >8 Men of War in two squadrons >10 Frigates in one squadron >40 Corvettes in two squadrons >Each squadron having 1,000 marines >This makes the final number of ships: > >Man-of-War 80 >Frigates 100 >Corvettes 400 > >The nine divisions would have been assigned: > >Aasla, Haven 4 (Home Fleet) >Sundsvall, Vertiloch 1 (Imperial Command) >Skyreach, Ar 1 (1 squadron on floating islands, >remainder >on ground, Northern Command) >Eagret, Greenspur 2 (Southern Command) >Rardish, Randel 1 (Eastern Approaches) > >Though the numbers are high, DotI does suggest numbers in these orders and >so does the ease at which Thyatis is building the ships after only a few >years of experience. > >Let me know what you think, but constructive comment, please, >Michael III Mysteria > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:12:14 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Military Matters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Most of Alphatia's military is made up from the seperate kingdoms. Thyatis's military is all centralized and conformed. >From: Michael III Mysteria >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: [MYSTARA] Military Matters >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:57:27 +0100 > >I'd like to make another point on the Thy vs Alph military discussion: > >People keep insisting that the Alphatian military is too powerful and >should >be whimpy, well... >DotE insists that the Imperial Alphatian Military is good QUALITY but small >QUANTITY, because of disinterested nobles and decentralized government. > Now if I look in PWA II I see an Alphatian Imperial military of: >1 Imperial Guard @ 5,300 troops = 5,300 >15 Imperial Force Divisions @ 3,727 troops = 56,000 > >For a total of 60,000 Imperial troops >At a population of roughly 5,000,000 that's just over 1% Imperial Forces >The remaining units are national forces maintained because of wartime >conditions. > >Now if I look at Thyatis, it's supposed to have: >2 Emperor's Cohorts @ 3,310 troops = 6,620 >23 Regular Cohorts @ 3,310 troops = 76,130 >25 Imperial Fleets @ 1,600 troops = 40,000 > >For a total of 122,750 Imperial Troops (supposedly this is the Standing >Level, in wartime Imperial Defender units are activated). >At a population of 3,001,000 this is a whooping 4%, far above the nominal >2% >standing level. > >With the ongoing discussion about the unbelievably low level of the >Alphatian population I think these figures are more than believable. > >Each nation would have, in addition to these forces, reserve units, special >units like the Retebius Air Force, the Knights of Air, Alphatian flying >monster mounted troops etc. > >Responses? >Michael III Mysteria > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:27:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked through CofM Designers Manual says: on Man-of-War: the Alphatian Imperial Navy commisions "many" of these ships (p.6), but I wasn't able to find that Privateer part. But I think that might be true for the smaller vessels, which I call corvettes. The book however seems to suggest that the Alphatian Skynavy is massive to say the least, so "dozens" of man-of-war and perhaps "hundreds" of vessels of various sizes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Manley To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy > It is also stated somewhere that most of Alphatia's skyfleet is made up > mostly of priviteers and would be very hard to document considering that > almost everybody in the land can use magic. > I believe I read this in the Champions of Mystara Box Set. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:48:02 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I agree with your estimation. but the fact remains that during the WotI,Alphatia seemed to be struggling with Thyatis. If they had hunderds of skyships,nobody could have, or even thought of,standing in there way. I do realize that many of there ships were in the HW, but still, smaller skyships would be every difficult to stop. King >From: Michael III Mysteria >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:27:16 +0100 > >I looked through CofM >Designers Manual says: >on Man-of-War: the Alphatian Imperial Navy commisions "many" of these ships >(p.6), but I wasn't able to find that Privateer part. But I think that >might >be true for the smaller vessels, which I call corvettes. >The book however seems to suggest that the Alphatian Skynavy is massive to >say the least, so "dozens" of man-of-war and perhaps "hundreds" of vessels >of various sizes. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Manley >To: >Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:08 PM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy > > > > It is also stated somewhere that most of Alphatia's skyfleet is made up > > mostly of priviteers and would be very hard to document considering that > > almost everybody in the land can use magic. > > I believe I read this in the Champions of Mystara Box Set. > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:14:39 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: wuoldn't it be nice? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wouldn't it be nice to have a nation located on the Thotian Plateu? It seems strange to me that through-out the milleniums that nobody has settled that land in force. The land must be rich in resources, and it has very good defencive properties. Empires have settled all around it but never deep into it. The nation I'm thinking of would encompass Thothia, Septentriona, Furmenglaive, and Caerdwicca.It would have been settled origionaly by Thothian anciesters(I believe they were the nithians)and would have been challenged in battle by both Alphatia and Thyatis. I also believe the nation would have roughly 2,500,000 people(dispute it later!)and would be about a medieval civ. level. the military would be battle tested and capable. magic abilities slightly below Glantri's skill and power. Now doesn't that sound nice? King. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:28:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: copyright rules? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nobody can copyright a NAME! That is not legal. That would be like saying that because someone used the name Bert in a story no one could ever use that name again. Check out the law, if you don't believe me. George ----- Original Message ----- From: kevin wyton To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 2:40 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] copyright rules? > Greetings all > > I have another submission awaiting but I just realized that like many others > I shamelessly borrowed names from a published tsr product.I have made some > changes to the names I used, but I hoped someone could clarify what might be > copyright infringement. Wouldn't want the tsr copyright police looking over > our files now would we? > > kevin > > > "If you think no one cares about you, miss a payment." > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:43:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It occurs to me that a Man'O'War would be a big prestige thing among the aristocracy, so that a kingdom that could build one would do so. Such a vessel would be forced to join the fleet in the event of war. Brigantine class ships would suffice if a nation were unable to build a Man'O'War. Think about the various parts of the British Empire just before WWII. There were several cruisers spread about that belonged to various colonial forces... George ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy > > The Men 'o War are MUCH bigger than their smaller brethren. However, I > am > > comfortable in my chair right now and I'm not going to summon the energy > to > > reach for my Champions of Mystara box to get some ideas of crew sizes :) > > > Yah, and I've mislocated mine so don't have the numbers handy. :( > Oh, wait! Found it. > I guess upon further review you're right: Princess Ark itself has 101 > persons and 1d20 mercs. Of course, its crew is probably smaller than normal > because the ship flys itself (and the ship was itself smaller before > FR-Like Munchkin Spell #9 was applied). But if the ships are PA sized, I > suppose assume an average of 125 persons total, of whom maybie 80 are > marines & Boltmen. > > > > Hmm, seems like a hell of a lot of crew. Even assuming for lots of > marines. > > 180 men on a little sloop or something? I assume that skysloops are > > comparable to Spelljammer ships, ie a complement of around 40? > > > A complement of around 40? Remember, Alphatians like sailing-type ships: > they can't be crewed by one guy sitting in a Helm, but have rigging, etc. > Ok - a Small Sailing Ship-sized Vessel would have a crew of 10 and 25 > Marines (but is it worth the cost?). A Large Sailing Ship-sized Vessel > would have 20 crewmen and 50 Marines. But those are sea navy ships. > "Champions" gives the following figures: > > Sloop: 25-50 sailors, 20-40 marines > Schooner: 30-60 sailors, 30-60 marines > Brigantine: 50-100 sailors, 50-100 marines* > Man of War: 100-200 sailors, 200-400 marines** > > *Princess Ark seems to fall into the "Brigantine" category, so I suppose > average "sailors" for this sized ship but without the FR-LMS9 would be 60 > or so, with 75 or so marines. > > **Man-of-War as described on the Card seems to be maximum size. I guess > that means there are weaker varieties and the one given is the most > powerful. However, the card is what people imagine when they think of an > Alphatian Man-of-War, so barring a new description, I'll keep using that > one. > > Means the revised totals of your figures are: > > Men-of-War: 15,000 > Brigantines: 3,500 > Smaller: 6,200 > > Total: 24,700 > > Or still over a third of the Imperial Forces. > > > > Well, I was aiming at Total Strength. I take it as red that that figure > > would be spread out throughout the other kingdoms. > > > Ok. Well, not everyone does automatically. > Note for clarity, though: Just because some of the ships/forces are under > various Kingdoms rather than direct Imperial command doesn't mean they > won't appear in a battle alongside them (though various polyglot Imperial > forces. . .not usually efficient command structures) - they get loaned out > for campaigns, IMO, but what Andrew Thiesen was saying about how the > Alphatian Empire likely functions probably has significant effect on how > well everyone cooperates (disputes over strategies and who should command > are probably fairly common, intra-Empire rivalries, jellousies, etc. . .) > > > > Its just more of my WW1 analogy... British Royal Navy in WW1 - 25 odd > > dreadnoughts, about the same again in cruisers, 80 odd destroyers... > > shameless me. Well, that explains the figure anyway :) > > > Well, you see - that's another area where we tend to come at things from > different directions, because you see the Alphatian Empire as analogous to > the British Empire, but IMO DotE tends to imply that Thyatis is more > closely an analogy of the British Empire (for one thing, it's efficiently > run. For another thing, Retebius Air Fleet/"RAF" mean anything to any one? > For a third thing, Thyatian ministries with names like "The Foreign Office" > and "The Home Office" et all should evoke some sense of familiarity to > anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the British government). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:48:25 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >on Man-of-War: the Alphatian Imperial Navy commisions "many" of these ships >(p.6), but I wasn't able to find that Privateer part. But I think that might >be true for the smaller vessels, which I call corvettes. >The book however seems to suggest that the Alphatian Skynavy is massive to >say the least, so "dozens" of man-of-war and perhaps "hundreds" of vessels >of various sizes. Well, the Royal Navy in WW1 was also "massive to say the least" (the policy of the day was to maintain the R.N. at the combined sized of the next two largest fleets). They had "many battleships". Many battleships in concrete figures was in fact 24. "Many" does not imply 50+. The USA has "many carriers" but that is far short of 50. The very fact that Alphatia has men 'o war means that they are yards ahead of anyone else. A man 'o war would eat a warbird (or a fleet of warbirds) for breakfast. 90 men o war would go through the Immortals like curry through a nun, let alone any other nation. You do raise another interesting point though... the fact that Alphatia has had millenia to build these things. That sort of thing hasnt happened in real life because of a number of things... a) ships get obsolete after a while b) old ships need more maintenance and probably a few other points as well, but those being the major two. Anyway, regarding a) Do you assume that the Alphatian skynavy had men o war say 500 years ago? Probably not. If they did exist they should, IMO, be very different to the existing ones (bit like comparing an aircraft carrier with a longship...). Magic in D&D has never been implemented satisfactorily to my eye. Everywhere, it seems to have been a constant figure - magic missile to meteor swarm, this stuff has been around for time immemorial. I personally don't like that... I would rather see magic being developed as time goes on. (Its why I reckon that Glantrian circles should be just that - Glantrian - after all, it took the Glantrians 200 years to develop this "technology" after all, and it should be kept secret as a national asset). Its the same with Alphatia. The stats in the Champions of Mystara, to me, represent current technology. Would they really want to keep some warship 1000 years out of date in the armoury? America has been building ships constantly for 200 years, but you don't see the USS Nimitz in a battlegroup including some old ironclad from two centuries ago? And regarding b) Even permanency gets unstable after a long time (1000 years, admittedly). I note in Champions of Mystara certain other spells are at work there. Clothform and stuff like that. After 50 years what about that? (Or 10 years for that matter...). Sure, you could cite Magic! when it comes to things like wood rotting and general wear and tear, but so what - Mystara is magical as well. You could have magical barnacles on the hull feeding on the enchantments or something like that... anything at all. Bottom line, a ship is unlikely in my opinion to have a vast lifespan in most cases. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:58:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually this is not as unreasonable as it first seems. Alphatia is essentially a settled land, thus there is no real need for a huge standing army. Only on the frontiers (which are all off the continent) is there a need for ground pounders. Thus it seems reasonable that a disproportionate percent of military resources would be funneled into their navy; for it is only in this way that they can exert a projection of force. If we assume that half the military budget/resources are directed into the navy and further make the following assumptions: 1) The vast majority of transport duties are made by conventional naval forces. 2) Light skyships armed with boltmen and flaming oil are more than adequate to escort sea convoys and can cover far more territory for coastal patrols than a normal naval vessel. (Nothing like having an enemy ship hover five hundred feet above you and drop flaming oil onto your wooden sea vessel). 3) Medium skyships could be employed to act as heavy backup for patrol units, or as escorts for larger battle forces. Additionally, these ships have sufficient space to act as emergency troop transports for times when reinforcements are needed or when a couple of hundred troops need to be placed to cut off access to an invasion area. 4) The BIG ships would be exclusively skyships, since this is the primary striking power of the fleet. There would be no point in having large conventional warships. It is simply a drain on resources. Just my thoughts. George ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael III Mysteria To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy > In my view everybody's Skynavy estimations are somewhat conservative, not > that I'm trying to steer the conversation, but just to put in my own > opinion, let's give some perspective: > > Ierendi has 12 magical fireships at Honor Island > Neatharum has 16 flying sailing ships > Heldannic Territories has some 20 warbirds > Aquas has 46 submersible galleys > Thyatis built the Imperial Eagle in just a year and now in PWA 1016 has > something like 4 skyships, Zandor build 3 Alphatian Warbird at the turn of a > hand, King Xanthun of tiny rim-nation Blackrock even has a Man-of-War. > > Alphatia has had two millenia to build up their Skynavy, remember wooden > ships last for many decades, some are used for more than 50 years (check you > Royal Navy and United Republic Navy histories). > If we establish marine complements at: > 250 for a Man-of-War > 100 for a Frigate > 50 for a Corvette and smaller > > I think they'd be built roughly in 1:1:4 proportionality. > The Imperial Forces would number roughly 200.000 at any time, half would be > navy and most of the navy would be skyships, the regular ships would remain > in port or be used for other things, to be manned in wartime, so let's say a > little less half of the navy is Skyships. Makes about 50,000 Airmarines. > Dividing leaves 90 ship per proportionality factor, so.. > > 90 Man-of-War > 90 Frigates > 360 Corvettes and smaller > > A standard unit of the Alphatian military has 5,000 regular troops. > So the whole Skynavy will consist of 9 divisions. > > Each will have > 8 Men of War in two squadrons > 10 Frigates in one squadron > 40 Corvettes in two squadrons > Each squadron having 1,000 marines > This makes the final number of ships: > > Man-of-War 80 > Frigates 100 > Corvettes 400 > > The nine divisions would have been assigned: > > Aasla, Haven 4 (Home Fleet) > Sundsvall, Vertiloch 1 (Imperial Command) > Skyreach, Ar 1 (1 squadron on floating islands, remainder > on ground, Northern Command) > Eagret, Greenspur 2 (Southern Command) > Rardish, Randel 1 (Eastern Approaches) > > Though the numbers are high, DotI does suggest numbers in these orders and > so does the ease at which Thyatis is building the ships after only a few > years of experience. > > Let me know what you think, but constructive comment, please, > Michael III Mysteria > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:13:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Marco Fossati Subject: R: [MYSTARA] wuoldn't it be nice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Manley To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 1:14 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] wuoldn't it be nice? > Wouldn't it be nice to have a nation located on the Thotian Plateu? > It seems strange to me that through-out the milleniums that nobody has > settled that land in force. The land must be rich in resources, and it has > very good defencive properties. Empires have settled all around it but never > deep into it. > > The nation I'm thinking of would encompass Thothia, Septentriona, > Furmenglaive, and Caerdwicca.It would have been settled origionaly by > Thothian anciesters(I believe they were the nithians)and would have been > challenged in battle by both Alphatia and Thyatis. > > I also believe the nation would have roughly 2,500,000 people(dispute it > later!)and would be about a medieval civ. level. the military would be > battle tested and capable. magic abilities slightly below Glantri's skill > and power. > > Now doesn't that sound nice? > King. Perhaps it might sound nice but in my opinion you thought this nation with too many people. How could you justify the presence of 2.500.000 peoplein an isle that canon says it hosts rough 500.000 people. Also if you say there's in a strategic point of the Alphatian sea a so strong nation, why didn't it seize all the Isle of Dawn or at least tried to overcome Alphatia and thyatis. You say this nation is with a lot of people, a strong army, and powerful in magic. Sorry but is too unbelievable for me. I think you must change some parameters. Marco Fossati > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:09:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: wuoldn't it be nice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Thothian Plateau has been abandoned by the Thothians, though many ruins and statues of theirs still remain there, it is inhabited by lots of nasties now (Aranea among others) and DotE and othetr sourced clearly state that repeated attempt at settlement have all failed. The only good access is along the river Aurora which is in Thothia. Minor access is apparently also possible North of Caerdwicca, in the middle of the (uninhabited) shadow coast (that's a spooky name for a good reason apparently) and in the north through difficult terrain between the Kendach and Thothian Plateaus. It would appear unlikely that any current attempts at settlement would be succesful without a massive military sweep of the plateau (think vietnam-style). Michael M.M.Grootenboer ---- Original Message ----- From: Bill Manley To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 1:14 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] wuoldn't it be nice? > Wouldn't it be nice to have a nation located on the Thotian Plateu? > It seems strange to me that through-out the milleniums that nobody has > settled that land in force. The land must be rich in resources, and it has > very good defencive properties. Empires have settled all around it but never > deep into it. > > The nation I'm thinking of would encompass Thothia, Septentriona, > Furmenglaive, and Caerdwicca.It would have been settled origionaly by > Thothian anciesters(I believe they were the nithians)and would have been > challenged in battle by both Alphatia and Thyatis. > > I also believe the nation would have roughly 2,500,000 people(dispute it > later!)and would be about a medieval civ. level. the military would be > battle tested and capable. magic abilities slightly below Glantri's skill > and power. > > Now doesn't that sound nice? > King. > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:13:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Solaria? (was Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)) In-Reply-To: ; from Kaviyd@AOL.COM on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 10:56:42PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 10:56:42PM -0500, David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-02-13 8:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: > > << Because otherwise, I have to imagine Alphatia being like Solaria, which > isn't my impression from DotE as to how it works. >> > > Okay -- what is Solaria, and what characteristics does it have that are > relevant to this discussion of Alphatian population? Isaac Asimov wrote some stories [1] about a planet called Solaria which had very, very few people on it (they were all looked after by robots). I think somewhere in the region of 100 people on the entire planet or something. It could be this that's being referred to. gordon [1] Robots of Dawn, Robots and Empire, Foundation and Earth (I think) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:23:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, the Royal Navy in WW1 was also "massive to say the least" (the policy > of the day was to maintain the R.N. at the combined sized of the next two > largest fleets). They had "many battleships". Many battleships in concrete > figures was in fact 24. "Many" does not imply 50+. The USA has "many > carriers" but that is far short of 50. In fact the RN had quite a few more than 25 battleships, much closer to 50 in fact, though for exact figures you'll have to wait till next weekend when I have access to Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships of WWI again. But remember that dreadnoughts were conceived in a time of great naval flux, everyone was rushing to build them, had they had more years, many more would have been built. The Known World is in a time of Wooden Ships which lasted in the real world for many centuries, the royal navy had nearly a thousand ships in the time of the great triple-decked warships, nearly a quarter of those were in fact Ships of the Line or Man-of-War. And before the dreadnought, the RN had a fleet of well over 200 pre-dreadnought battleships (and that my memory being conservative, I think the figure was higher still, in fact.) > The very fact that Alphatia has men 'o war means that they are yards ahead > of anyone else. A man 'o war would eat a warbird (or a fleet of warbirds) > for breakfast. 90 men o war would go through the Immortals like curry > through a nun, let alone any other nation. Remember that though they could eat the Warbirds alive, they wont since the Thousand Wizards won't allow a war so easily and the Man of Wars are the reason why no-one has ever come close to conquering Alphatia. When war with Thyatis breaks out the whole fleet isn't suddenly available to attack them, patrols against warbirds, glantri airships etc etc still have to be made, transport fleets need more escorts etc. Many ships would be out scouting the Hollow World etc. Most of the smallest classes of ships would be in use for other purposes. > You do raise another interesting point though... the fact that Alphatia has > had millenia to build these things. > That sort of thing hasnt happened in real life because of a number of > things... > > a) ships get obsolete after a while > b) old ships need more maintenance Wooden ships were used for nearly a half a century usually and sometimes for twice that time. > Do you assume that the Alphatian skynavy had men o war say 500 years ago? > Probably not. If they did exist they should, IMO, be very different to the > existing ones (bit like comparing an aircraft carrier with a longship...). Nope, in fact the era of wooden ships lasted from 1000 to nearly 1900 in the real world and besides, what technology is in the real world, magic is in Alphatia, so advances would be in magic, not in tech. But while you're talking about carriers, check out p.106 in DotE book 1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:26:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not disagreeing, just a little comment. > Actually this is not as unreasonable as it first seems. Alphatia is > essentially > a settled land, thus there is no real need for a huge standing army. Only > on the frontiers (which are all off the continent) is there a need for > ground > pounders. Thus it seems reasonable that a disproportionate percent of > military resources would be funneled into their navy; for it is only in this > way that they can exert a projection of force. If we assume that half the > military budget/resources are directed into the navy and further make the > following assumptions: Thank you, I agree > > 1) The vast majority of transport duties are made by conventional > naval forces. Correct, transporting an army division would be done mostly by rented transports > 2) Light skyships armed with boltmen and flaming oil are more than > adequate to escort sea convoys and can cover far more territory > for coastal patrols than a normal naval vessel. (Nothing like having > an enemy ship hover five hundred feet above you and drop flaming > oil onto your wooden sea vessel). True, and many light ships could be hired from private companies and nobles. > 3) Medium skyships could be employed to act as heavy backup for > patrol units, or as escorts for larger battle forces. Additionally, > these > ships have sufficient space to act as emergency troop transports for > times when reinforcements are needed or when a couple of hundred > troops need to be placed to cut off access to an invasion area. Sounds good > 4) The BIG ships would be exclusively skyships, since this is the primary > striking power of the fleet. There would be no point in having large > conventional warships. It is simply a drain on resources. Perhaps in the colonies though? But this is certainly true for the mainland. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:33:44 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael III Mysteria wrote: > > Blackheart >I'd think the wizards would have more slaves and stuff, so I think 50,00= 0 >is the population of Shraek, plus registered wizards on estates. Actually, the population figures already take slaves and abominatins/etc.= into account. Per DotE something like 10% of the population is wizards; 40% is= townsfolk/adventurers/etc.; and the rest are all slaves/servants/experime= nts. Which pretty much gives us the figures of 20,000 that lives in Shraek pro= per. Which is all about right, considering that there doesn't appear to be (an= d shouldn't be, given the nature of the woods) any settlements other than Shraek. = >> Debatable: >> Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher >> population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from = >> incursions from Blackheart) >The Attrition would seem unlikely, since most elves use magic, and are >= thus protected by imperial law. Perhaps they would have 100-150,000 >people. B= ut how high was the population of Alfheim? A lot higher than Shiye-Lawr's given its area. I think Alfheim was someth= ing like 150,000 (pre-Wrath), compared to 70,000 in Shiye-Lawr. Since both ar= eas were settled around (roughly) the same time period, the population should= be much higher. Especially since they had a ready-made forest, and didn't ha= ve to devote their energies to creating one. Unless the Shiye have some sort of fertility problems, which brings us ba= ck to the "something in the water" theory that I proposed, mostly in jest. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:45:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000213194143.007d8340@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > At 09:05 PM 2/13/00 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Ones that are too high: > >Draco > > You mean Stonewall, right? (Draco's the capitol city. :) > Yes. My brain fried and I couldn't think of the right name. > > >Debatable: > >Shiye-Lawr (I'd think the Elves ought to be able to manage a higher > >population density, but perhaps they have heavy attrition from incursions > >from Blackheart) > > I'd say it's definitely too low. I can't see Blackheart as an antagonistic > nation at all, given the ease with which they could be cut off from the > outside world (trade blockades) and since there is only one settlement of Not much need for the outside world, though, except maybe for metals and certain rare goods. And with large # of high level wizards with teleportation magics, blockade becomes tricky. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:48:35 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Solaria? (was Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, David Knott wrote: > In a message dated 2000-02-13 8:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: > > << Because otherwise, I have to imagine Alphatia being like Solaria, which > isn't my impression from DotE as to how it works. >> > > Okay -- what is Solaria, and what characteristics does it have that are > relevant to this discussion of Alphatian population? > Solaria is from Isaac Asimov's Robot Novels. It's a planet settled by people who were pathologically loners. Each Solarian had a vast estate, miles across, and was served by a horde of robots. They never left their estates, and childbirth was strictly regulated to maintain a steady population level (Everyone got one child to act as their heir--many Solarians had to be forced to breed). John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:10:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) > >In a message dated 2000-02-13 3:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jsmill@WANS.NET writes: > ><< Or maybe there are entire kingdoms and dominions within the continent that > are not beholden to Alphatia at all, despite attempts to absorb them? And > the Alphatians just have some really good PR reps that are able to keep the > rest of the world from discovering this? :) >> Neat idea! I would say that, given the sheer bulk of the Alphatian continent, it would be likely that there could be whole cities and towns that the imperial authorities don't even *know* about. Look at the western coast, for example, or the interior of Foresthome - there are no doubt lots of hidden valleys and isolated inlets and bays where small towns could have been founded centuries ago, and just either "vanished" from the record books due to clerical error, or servant-class Alphers got fed up with the whole mess and decided to bugger off somewhere else. Unless the imperial authorities patrol the skies regularly in skyships, or perform "sweeps" with scrying instruments, thounsads of people could fall through the cracks. With the government as apathetic and chaotic as described in DotE, it would make sense. Who knows - there could even be a kingdom of mundaners out there, somewhere in the howling wilds of Frisland or Foresthome? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Rob wrote: >unconsciously I portray Thyatis as being very similar) but I did notice that >the Glantrian civil service seemed very British to me. Really? Where do you think Sir Humphrey would fit into the picture (and what level mage would he be)? :-) ...new spell: "Humphrey's Awesome Obfuscator" (instantly converts all written documents within a 50' radius (+10' per level of experience) into unreadable bureaucratese. Reading time for any document is tripled, and anyone attempting to read a coverted document must roll a Horror Check vs. a Horror Rating of 7 (yes, even the lesser machinations of the Outer Beings pale in camparison to the unutterable horror of trying to comprehend a memo concerning the opinion of the Minister Responsible for Automated Crystal Ball Repairs and Polishing as regards a recent bilateral discussion with relevant stakeholders concerning the potentiality, a some appropriate juncture, of the reasonability of a feasability study which, under the purview of the Director General of Carpet Cleaning, shall be conducted in accordance with existing regulations governing the fair conduction of surveys, queries, and memoranda governing the opinions of those approached for the express purpose of garnering their opinions, insofar as such an inquiry is deemed appropriate by the appriopriate people, who are in continuous contact with those people who know people who determine the appropriateness of such potentially appropriate actions). Truly an awesome spell in the arsenal of any spellcasting bureaucrat!! :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:12:12 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Yep... seems to me the Emperor of Alphatia is little more than a > figurehead, and that the "Empire" of Alphatia is an Empire in name only That doesn't seem to be the case in PWAs though, where the kings jump to obey Eriadna whenever she says something. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was One idea, if we continue Andrew's argument concernning the low population levels of Shiye-Lawr, is that some event (or events) happened in the past to either kill off a lot of their population, or inhibit their growth. One possible idea is the civil war I described in my timeline/history of Ilmaryll, the lost elvish nation that used to lie north of S-L. IIRC, I didn't work out how many had been killed, but considering we are talking about elves in battle, casualty rates could have been very high on both sides - enough that the Shiye elves are still recovering from the mass slaughter even today (given that elves do not appear to reproduce all that quickly, I would reason that killing one elf will have a greater chance of slowing their overall growth rate than would be the case among other, more prolific races). Just a thought, Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:00:15 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In fact the RN had quite a few more than 25 battleships, much closer to 50 >in fact, though for exact figures you'll have to wait till next weekend when >I have access to Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships of WWI again. But >remember that dreadnoughts were conceived in a time of great naval flux, >everyone was rushing to build them, had they had more years, many more would Well, there were 24 dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow fleet which participated at Jutland. Plus the battlecruisers. >have been built. The Known World is in a time of Wooden Ships which lasted >in the real world for many centuries, the royal navy had nearly a thousand >ships in the time of the great triple-decked warships, nearly a quarter of >those were in fact Ships of the Line or Man-of-War. And before the >dreadnought, the RN had a fleet of well over 200 pre-dreadnought battleships >(and that my memory being conservative, I think the figure was higher still, >in fact.) Mmm, but a dreadnought was a lot bigger than the old predreadnoughts. A Man o War is immense compared to the next smaller ship, its at least double the size. As it is such a behemoth, I thought a dreadnought battleship an appropriate RW analog. Wooden ships are a lot easier to make than metal ships. Irrelevant, you may think, but a skyship is more comparable in my view to a modern warship, as it needs the attention of lots of highly qualified people (ie mages) of great skill, and that it takes a long time... >> The very fact that Alphatia has men 'o war means that they are yards ahead >> of anyone else. A man 'o war would eat a warbird (or a fleet of warbirds) >> for breakfast. 90 men o war would go through the Immortals like curry >> through a nun, let alone any other nation. >Remember that though they could eat the Warbirds alive, they wont since the >Thousand Wizards won't allow a war so easily and the Man of Wars are the >reason why no-one has ever come close to conquering Alphatia. When war with >Thyatis breaks out the whole fleet isn't suddenly available to attack them, >patrols against warbirds, glantri airships etc etc still have to be made, >transport fleets need more escorts etc. Many ships would be out scouting the >Hollow World etc. Most of the smallest classes of ships would be in use for >other purposes. Well at a stroke you have negated the entire Cold War aspect of Mystara which I thought was so interesting and made Mystara unique. The argument that Alphatia easily could wreck the planet, but does not, simply doesnt wash, and it doesnt even make for a good setting for adventure - which is, after all, the point. >Wooden ships were used for nearly a half a century usually and sometimes for >twice that time. A big difference between 50 and 2000 years though, which is what was being proposed. >> Do you assume that the Alphatian skynavy had men o war say 500 years ago? >> Probably not. If they did exist they should, IMO, be very different to >the >> existing ones (bit like comparing an aircraft carrier with a longship...). >Nope, in fact the era of wooden ships lasted from 1000 to nearly 1900 in the >real world and besides, what technology is in the real world, magic is in >Alphatia, so advances would be in magic, not in tech. But while you're >talking about carriers, check out p.106 in DotE book 1 And in those 1000 years there were massive changes. Just from the 17th-19th centuries onward they went from sloops and caravels to frigates and galleons to ironclads and submarines. Weapons changed from rams to catapults to petards to various grades and qualities of cannon. And so on. Magic just enters yet another dimension, another "science" of war to be improved upon. Saying that the Alphatian Empire has had similar ship designs for two millenia seems somewhat ludicrous to me. Besides, it also serves to make the planet less interesting if it has been static for that long. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:02:01 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What can I say. LOL I think sums it up :) They should rename the Brotherhood of Radiance the Department of Energy instead ;) Cheers Rob >Rob wrote: > >>unconsciously I portray Thyatis as being very similar) but I did notice that >>the Glantrian civil service seemed very British to me. > >Really? Where do you think Sir Humphrey would fit into the picture (and >what level mage would he be)? :-) > >...new spell: "Humphrey's Awesome Obfuscator" (instantly converts all >written documents within a 50' radius (+10' per level of experience) >into unreadable bureaucratese. Reading time for any document is >tripled, and anyone attempting to read a coverted document must roll a >Horror Check vs. a Horror Rating of 7 (yes, even the lesser machinations of >the Outer Beings pale in camparison to the unutterable horror of trying to >comprehend a memo concerning the opinion of the Minister Responsible >for Automated Crystal Ball Repairs and Polishing as regards a recent >bilateral discussion with relevant stakeholders concerning the >potentiality, a some appropriate juncture, of the reasonability of a >feasability study which, under the purview of the Director General of >Carpet Cleaning, shall be conducted in accordance with existing >regulations governing the fair conduction of surveys, queries, and >memoranda governing the opinions of those approached for the express >purpose of garnering their opinions, insofar as such an inquiry is deemed >appropriate by the appriopriate people, who are in continuous contact with >those people who know people who determine the appropriateness of such >potentially appropriate actions). Truly an awesome spell in the arsenal >of any spellcasting bureaucrat!! :-) > >Geoff > > > > > >-- >Geoff Gander, BA 97 >Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon >Carnifex Loremaster >au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:46:28 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff Gander wrote: > > I would say that, given the sheer bulk of the Alphatian continent, it > would be likely that there could be whole cities and towns that the > imperial authorities don't even *know* about. Look at the western = > coast, for example, or the interior of Foresthome - there are no doubt = > lots of hidden valleys and isolated inlets and bays where small towns = > could have been founded centuries ago, and just either "vanished" from = > the record books due to clerical error, or servant-class Alphers got fe= d > up with the whole mess and decided to bugger off somewhere else. = Sure. And those "Imperial Territories" have always looked suspect to me. = Sure, the Alphatian Bureau of the Interior and Public Relations would have us believe it's unsettled by order of the Emperor and Grand Council, but may= be there's more to it than that? Perhaps those woods hold secrets that the r= ulers of Alphatia would rather not have the outside world knowing about? = > Unless the imperial authorities patrol the skies regularly in skyships,= > or perform "sweeps" with scrying instruments, thounsads of people could > fa= ll through the cracks. With the government as apathetic and chaotic = > as described in DotE, it would make sense. Who knows - there could eve= n > be a kingdom of mundaners out there, somewhere in the howling wilds of > Frisland or Foresthome? Absolutely. The northern realms, in particular (especially the woodlands = as you mention here) would seem to me to be the most likely areas for nation= s and dominions that aren't part of Alphatia proper. = Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:59:59 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Well, there were 24 dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow fleet which participated >at Jutland. Plus the battlecruisers. Here we go, this is what I was thinking about... Substitute battleships for men 'o war, battlecruisers for skyfrigates (ie, big skybrigs), cruisers for skybrigs and smaller ships (skysloops and stuff) for destroyers. 24 battleships (+ another 4 fast battleships, forgot those) 9 battlecruisers 33 cruisers 78 destroyers Not bad from memory, eh? :) Granted that is only the RN ships deployed to the North Sea, but the situation for Alphatia is not dissimilar. They only need skyships posted on the western side, facing the Territories and Thyatis. There were indeed some RN warships elsewhere, but there Alphatia and 1914 UK become very different, as Alphatia does not have to garrison far flung outposts from a variety of foes with comparable technology. A force that size is Ample for Alphatia. In fact, its unnecessarily large if anything. After all - a skyship is useful only for naval/air superiority and troop deployment. They are useless as a garrison force, in fact they are probably exceptionally vulnerable in that role. The force above is easily enough to more than counter any other two skyship forces combined on the planet (which dictated the size of the Royal Navy in the RW.) Why would it need to be bigger? If it was, other nations (particularly the Heldannic Territories) would have much larger skyfleets of their own to make up for this. A classic arms race. 20 warbirds in the Territories would just be a joke if facing 90 men o war. Vanya would be letting priests mass produce these things if that was the case, till they had at least 50. The PWA order of battle as given simply does not mesh with such an immense Alphatian force as 90 men o war. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:07:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) In-Reply-To: <200002130743.CAA17665@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 01:40:31AM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 01:40:31AM -0600, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > The KW nations have reasonable population densities. > > Alphatia does not. > > > Ok - simply adjust the size of Alphatia to fit the population, creating > more appropriate densities. It's not as if Adventurers can explor every > nook and cranny in a 2 million square mile area, anyhow (to make no mention > of exploring the other couple million square miles) - so why not just > reduce the size? Actually that's how I see the sinking of Alphatia - it reduces it to some more appropriate numbers :) Seriously though, I only played one Alphatian campaign (it only lasted about 12 adventures as well) - and while it was cool the vastness of Alphatia didn't really add anything to the setting. I much prefer a more detailed area (and I'm hopeless at coming up with original stuff, I always steal, er, plagerise, er, research stuff from the books) to a vast wilderness where I have to make stuff up myself. The PC's tended to hop from one city to another, never really did anything with the vastness in between. If I was to run another Alphatian campaign I'd run from the end of Wrath (possibly a bit before the sinking) and have the players deal with the new reality in the Alphatian area. Umn, except I probably wouldn't follow the Almanacs and have a more dystopian remnant of empire type feel but I think I'm straying from the point if I ever had one... gordon, waffling again ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:21:10 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Manley wrote: > > The problem with changing things as you go is your ongoing campain seems > to jump and skip with notable gaps in the facts. This may be a shock, but most players don't really notice. I am a Star Trek fan and I know the value of nitpicking to get things right, the problem I see here is that people are getting more concerned for the system (culture and background) than the game. And when that happens, it sucks a lot of the fun out of it. > I'm not trying to fault the way you DM your games, I don't really care. But > it seems to me that it would be more work to "change it as you go" than to > get alot of people together and iron the problem out and put the baby to > bed. I agree with you partially on this. My concern is I've not heard much about people using this for a campaign they're running, they're just doing it 'because'. It's not my place to tell anyone what to do with their free time, but I get a little tired of seeing this stuff clog up my mailbox, especially when it's not for the sake of the game. If you want to spend your time devising a bunch of new material for the Alphatian empire which will mean little or nothing to potential new gamers, fine by me. > No harm in haveing an opinion, and I like some of your input. I hope we can > be friends > King. Not at all. Like anyone human I may occassionally cross a line, but rest assured I don't make personal attacks or anything. I just would like to read about more people playing Mystara rather than discussing it's cultural and economic structures. (You can tell I'm a story/cinematic DM, and yeah, I'm not into Warhammer 40k.) IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" (My own personal grievance with canon material) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:31:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Yep... seems to me the Emperor of Alphatia is little more than a > > figurehead, and that the "Empire" of Alphatia is an Empire in name only > > That doesn't seem to be the case in PWAs though, where the kings jump to > obey Eriadna whenever she says something. I disagree, she has difficulty getting them to recognize her, let alone get them to do her wishes, she probably controls foreign politics to a large extent, but internal affairs and inter-kingdom relations seem to leave the empress with little more than an arbitrator role with strict supervision of the Grand Council Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:33:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I disagree with trying to find unlikely and undocumented explanations for unlikely and apparently wrong facts laid out in canon material. Correcting it is better. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Gander To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was > One idea, if we continue Andrew's argument concernning the low population > levels of Shiye-Lawr, is that some event (or events) happened in the past > to either kill off a lot of their population, or inhibit their growth. > One possible idea is the civil war I described in my timeline/history of > Ilmaryll, the lost elvish nation that used to lie north of S-L. IIRC, I > didn't work out how many had been killed, but considering we are talking > about elves in battle, casualty rates could have been very high on both > sides - enough that the Shiye elves are still recovering from the mass > slaughter even today (given that elves do not appear to reproduce all that > quickly, I would reason that killing one elf will have a greater chance of > slowing their overall growth rate than would be the case among other, more > prolific races). > > Just a thought, > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97 > Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon > Carnifex Loremaster > au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:42:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy - Alphatia Re-Design Project First off, see one of my initial posts on the topic re the issue of having centuries or thousands of years to build Skyships - attrition would tend to keep pace (or *more* than keep pace) with construction, for the reason that they are devilishly difficult, expensive, and costly to construct but, various defences asside, comparatively easy to destroy or steal ("comparitively easy" doesn't mean "so simple a chimp could do it" - but if a band of Karameikans can, or Glantrian spies, then it can't be all that difficult). How many "Mage-Years" does it take to build just one Man-of-War? And how many Alphatian mages want to devote their lives to this task, when they could be cavorting or engaging in their own private experiments (this is an example of the disconect: on the one hand, it is argued that the Alphatian Mages don't bother themselves with Empire-oriented tasks or serving the Empire diligently, but on the other hand it is said that they do - producing all sorts of magic item! ! s for use by the Empire rather than for their own individual amusement & pleasure.) Secondly, official published materiels definately implys a much smaller skynavy than people are discussing at the moment. It also tends to obviate against extra-ordinarily large skyship squadrons in the hands of the various Kingdoms. The published materiels don't, fortunately or unfortunately, give specific totals and dispositions, but it definately doesn't imply a large skynavy. How can one reach this conclusion? (1) The larger the skyfleet, the less likely that a significant proportion of it would have been destroyed all in one place (Aasla in Haven). (2) The larger the skyfleet, and the more impervious it is to being affected by other nations (Thyatis, the HKs, whoever), then the logical conclusion would be that Alphatia would simply have flown to Glantri directly, and not bothered with that "intermediate" stuff (which forms the entire Wrath War). A large Skynavy with circa 100 Men-of-War (25,000 marines, if we go by Michael's figures, 40,000 if we go by the actual description of Man-of-War), and twice that many (give or take) "lesser" ships (capable of transporting anywhere from about 15,000 - 20,000, or more, troops), then they simply would have flown them to Glantri and conquered it without bothering with any of the intervening territory (Asside: people seem to have trouble making the connections between their proposals and the implications of those proposals). Now, we may pick at WotI for a variety of reasons, but WotI *is*. So the Skynavy couldn't be all that huge. . .not per the official world of Mystara. But it does seem like creating a huge, unmatchable Skynavy would form a natural part of the Alphatian Re-Design Project. We can do that right after finishing with Re-Designing the populations of the various Kingdoms (I'll have some work-ups on that tonight, perhaps. I'm away from home at the moment and don't have any of my gaming stuff with me.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Military Matters Mystara wrote: > DotE insists that the Imperial Alphatian Military is good QUALITY > but small > Where does it say that the Alphatian Military is good quality? Page number would be helpful. I can find it from there - if it's in there. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:53:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, there were 24 dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow fleet which participated > at Jutland. Plus the battlecruisers. Exactly, but of course they wouldn't send the whole fleet, in fact a battle like Jutland is always a chance-affair with people trying to gather as much of the available forces in the area as they can, but of course a far greater number would we spread out among other bases guarding overseas possession, monitoring other enemy activity. For instance the Brits had a large fleet at Gibraltar, another in the Channel, more in Singapore, the Indies etc etc Than toss in the battle cruisers which account for another 20 or so ships and the pre-dreadnought battleships still in service and you end up with well into the hundred ships of the largest class > Mmm, but a dreadnought was a lot bigger than the old predreadnoughts. A Man > o War is immense compared to the next smaller ship, its at least double the > size. As it is such a behemoth, I thought a dreadnought battleship an > appropriate RW analog. > > Wooden ships are a lot easier to make than metal ships. Irrelevant, you may > think, but a skyship is more comparable in my view to a modern warship, as > it needs the attention of lots of highly qualified people (ie mages) of > great skill, and that it takes a long time... I disagree for instance the Victory, Admiral Nelson's flagship, cost approximately 2 million pounds to build this is comparable to the cost of a Man-of-War (5 million gold pieces) when you consider that a pound was the highest valued monetary unit, so comparable to a platinum piece in my eyes. A victory type warship was manned by some 850 men, so twice the size of an average man of war (with 250 marines and 125 sailors). The victory too was immense compared to regular sailing ships, yet the approximately 1/3 to half of the RN consisted of such ships of between 750 and 1000 crew. > Well at a stroke you have negated the entire Cold War aspect of Mystara > which I thought was so interesting and made Mystara unique. The argument > that Alphatia easily could wreck the planet, but does not, simply doesnt > wash, and it doesnt even make for a good setting for adventure - which is, > after all, the point. It has the potential to, but that is the case at any rate with a nation with well over a thousand 36th level wizards and nearly 2 million wizards of various levels throughout the empire. But then again they wrecked a whole solar system before comming to mystara, the problem is...they can't, and also remember that Etienne (d'Ambreville) in fact did wreck a whole continent with nearly ten million people. > A big difference between 50 and 2000 years though, which is what was being > proposed. Sorry, I didn't suggest 2,000 years, I said they have had two thousand years to build the navy, so they have vast experience in building such ships and attritions only requires a couple of ships to be built per year. > And in those 1000 years there were massive changes. Just from the 17th-19th > centuries onward they went from sloops and caravels to frigates and galleons > to ironclads and submarines. Weapons changed from rams to catapults to > petards to various grades and qualities of cannon. And so on. Magic just > enters yet another dimension, another "science" of war to be improved upon. > Saying that the Alphatian Empire has had similar ship designs for two > millenia seems somewhat ludicrous to me. > Besides, it also serves to make the planet less interesting if it has been > static for that long. Historians generally agree that between the advent of gunpowder and the industrial revolution, little in naval warfare changed, except the increase in the size of ships. Remember that in the 16th and 17th century ships with 80-100 guns fought battles (between The Dutch republic, England and Spain) and that nearly three hundred years later in the 19th century only slightly larger ships fought battles between the Royal Navy and the Napoleonic Navy. I'm not saying the design is the same, merely that the ships have gotten bigger and more advanced, but that they're basically still flying wooden ships. We're not changing the planet, simply how to translate it's flavor best to game facts. Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:55:12 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael III Mysteria wrote: > >>Geoff Gander wrote: >> >> One idea, if we continue Andrew's argument concernning the low >>popul= ation levels of Shiye-Lawr, is that some event (or events) happened >>in the pa= st to either kill off a lot of their population, or inhibit >>their growth. >> >> One possible idea is the civil war I described in my timeline/history = >>of Ilmaryll, the lost elvish nation that used to lie north of S-L. >>IIRC, = I didn't work out how many had been killed, but considering we are >>talkin= g about elves in battle, casualty rates could have been very high >>on both= sides - enough that the Shiye elves are still recovering from >>the mass slaughter even today (given that elves do not appear to >>reproduce all t= hat quickly, I would reason that killing one elf will >>have a greater chance= of slowing their overall growth rate than would be >>the case among other, m= ore prolific races). > >I disagree with trying to find unlikely and undocumented explanations fo= r >unlikely and apparently wrong facts laid out in canon material. >Correct= ing it is better. What exactly that Geoff said are you disagreeing with? The concept of the= Illmaryll wars that he made up being a possible source of the elves' woes= ? Or something else? If the former, is the disagreement based on the fact that the wars are no= t mentioned in canon sources? If so, I'd argue that just because they aren'= t explicitly mentioned, doesn't mean they couldn't have happened. There is = a lot of "gray area" in Alphatian (indeed, all Mystaran) history. The few "cano= n" books that have come out could not possibly have covered everything, nor = do I think their intention was to do so. That they covered as much as they did= was pretty amazing. = Particularly for Alphatia though, the history of the nation is virtually = a blank slate. It would be far simpler, IMO, to fill in reasons for the low= population levels into the "unwritten" history, than to try and reconcile= it with what is written. Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was Michael wrote: >I disagree with trying to find unlikely and undocumented explanations for >unlikely and apparently wrong facts laid out in canon material. Correcting >it is better. But is there really any difference between correcting the data as they stand now, and retroactively inserting events in history (which in themselves add new depth to the campaign setting, IMO) in order to justify current figures? Personally, I think not. One is just as valid as the other, but I find it far more palatable to explain Alphatia's current population as it is (either through using the argument of abandoned towns and villages to portray an empire in internal decline - which is itself fodder for a great campagin, I'm sure - or by inserting events concerning lost kingdoms and forgotten wars), than dropping in another 5-10 million (or however many) Alphatians. As other people have already said, such a change would *drastically* alter the geopolitical balance of Mystara. The mere presence of such a huge nation, isolationist or not, would have a great impact on the foreign and domestic policies of the Known World (and likely beyond). While I myself do not subscribe to the view that raw superiority in terms of population figures in itself constitutes a decisive advantage on the battlefield, such a magnification of Alphatia's population would render the whole discussion moot due to the sheer superiority in number (a ratio of 10:1, to quote someone else). Thyatis et al could stand up to Alphatia before if needs be, but would they stand long against a juggernaut with 15-30 million or so people (20% or whom might be spellcasters)? I don't think so. All this to say, and hopefully in a non-offensive manner, that I would much rather fill in the atrociously long blanks in Alphatian history, and make it more interesting in the process, to explain things as they stand now. IMO, it takes a far shorter leap in logic to accept this, than to just say, "okay, let's bump up the population because the density is to low right now". Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:11:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAlphatia TOO MANY ALPHATIAN MESSAGES!!! SSSTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!!!!!!! I'M GETTING MAD! MAD! MAD! BRUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:12:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: WebRPG (was: HW modules) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know I'd be interested in participating in one... > > Aaron Nowack > "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." Maybe me too... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:09:18 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Well, there were 24 dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow fleet which >participated >> at Jutland. Plus the battlecruisers. >Exactly, but of course they wouldn't send the whole fleet, in fact a battle >like Jutland is always a chance-affair with people trying to gather as much >of the available forces in the area as they can, but of course a far greater >number would we spread out among other bases guarding overseas possession, >monitoring other enemy activity. For instance the Brits had a large fleet at >Gibraltar, another in the Channel, more in Singapore, the Indies etc etc >Than toss in the battle cruisers which account for another 20 or so ships >and the pre-dreadnought battleships still in service and you end up with >well into the hundred ships of the largest class Yeah, but Alphatia doesnt currently have a world spanning Empire. And even if it did, most of it wouldnt need such a huge fleet to garrison it. The British didnt have dreadnoughts garrisoning the places where the natives were armed with sharpened mango fruit... which is the equivalent most of Mystara is in when compared to a Man o War, which is an immensely powerful killing machine which employs exceptionally high level magics in its construction. >> Wooden ships are a lot easier to make than metal ships. Irrelevant, you >may >> think, but a skyship is more comparable in my view to a modern warship, as >> it needs the attention of lots of highly qualified people (ie mages) of >> great skill, and that it takes a long time... >I disagree for instance the Victory, Admiral Nelson's flagship, cost >approximately 2 million pounds to build this is comparable to the cost of a >Man-of-War (5 million gold pieces) when you consider that a pound was the >highest valued monetary unit, so comparable to a platinum piece in my eyes. >A victory type warship was manned by some 850 men, so twice the size of an >average man of war (with 250 marines and 125 sailors). >The victory too was immense compared to regular sailing ships, yet the >approximately 1/3 to half of the RN consisted of such ships of between 750 >and 1000 crew. OK, grant that. An Alphatian man o war would cost that just for the mundane construction - and the magical prowess required would be far more of a resouce drain. Besides, value is relative. I wonder how much Nelson would have payed to get his mitts on the USS Nimitz? It would have been better if I talked about difficulty to make rather than value. An Alphatian man o war is pretty darn powerful. For example, Karameikos would have precisely zero chance of making one of those babies if the entire place worked on it - at least, until Terari came along. And even then it would mean Terari hard at work enchanting for probably several years. That is a truly immense resource drain on a nation. >> Well at a stroke you have negated the entire Cold War aspect of Mystara >> which I thought was so interesting and made Mystara unique. The argument >> that Alphatia easily could wreck the planet, but does not, simply doesnt >> wash, and it doesnt even make for a good setting for adventure - which is, >> after all, the point. >It has the potential to, but that is the case at any rate with a nation >with well over a thousand 36th level wizards and nearly 2 million wizards of >various levels throughout the empire. But then again they wrecked a whole >solar system before comming to mystara, the problem is...they can't, and >also remember that Etienne (d'Ambreville) in fact did wreck a whole >continent with nearly ten million people. Yeah, but those thousand 36th level wizards are probably facing a thousand 36th level fighters in Thyatis. As for planet wrecking, that was 2000 years ago in a plane with different magical laws than Mystara. Frankly, that is entirely irrelevant. The Persians used to be a great Empire 2000 years ago, and nowadays Iraq hardly compares. >> Saying that the Alphatian Empire has had similar ship designs for two >> millenia seems somewhat ludicrous to me. >> Besides, it also serves to make the planet less interesting if it has been >> static for that long. >Historians generally agree that between the advent of gunpowder and the >industrial revolution, little in naval warfare changed, except the increase >in the size of ships. May be, but you are forgetting the magical element here again. The real world has gunpowder, Mystara has magic. A more far reaching force if ever there was one. >We're not changing the planet, simply how to translate it's flavor best to >game facts. Yes, but you are changing the planet. You are changing Alphatia from a Skyship of Love more or less equal opponent to Thyatis to an Ubernation without compare. Worse, you are missing an opportunity to make the planet richer. Sure, the Man o War cutout is very pretty, but the idea of having identical ships throughout time - dont you find that a little dull? Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mystara wrote: > Wooden ships are a lot easier to make than metal ships. > Irrelevant, you may think, but a skyship is more comparable > in my view to a modern warship, as it needs the attention of > lots of highly qualified people (ie mages) of great skill, > and that it takes a long time... > IMO, it's not even comparable to that - I go back to my comparison with building a B2 Stealth Bomber. It's probably (in fact, certainly) a much more difficult task to build one of those than it is to build, say, a WWII era Aircraft Carrier. In Alphatia (and elsewhere), non-magical sailing ships can be built fairly easily. Yes, it takes skilled craftsmen (one should *NOT* minimize the amount of expertise it takes to build even a Caravel, much less a Galleon) - and these things cost less than 1% of the cost of a Man of War (and note the "Man of War" cost on the card describing it is not inclusive of the fees paid to the enchanting wizards). Also: again on the one hand doing this is said to be so devilishly difficult that only the Alphatians know how to enchant their type of skyships, but on the other hand it's said to be no big deal, they can be made by the dozens, hundreds. Disconect? > Well at a stroke you have negated the entire Cold War > aspect of Mystara which I thought was so interesting > and made Mystara unique. > As people have pointed out to me when I made a similar argument, that's no big deal. > The argument that Alphatia easily could wreck the planet, > but does not, simply doesnt wash, and it doesnt even make > for a good setting for adventure - which is, after all, > the point. > Well, consider that an unfortunate unintended (?) consiquence of the Alphatia Re-Design Project. But IMO, and just IMO, it's probably worth it if only to finally resolve these issues to the satisfaction of those for whom Alphatia isn't heavily populated enough (dispite having more people than any other two Mystaran nations you can name), militarily strong enough, or whatnot. It's not as if I personally favor most of the changes that will be made, either. But at least once they're done, they'll be done - and folks like Ironwolf hopefully won't have to be inundated with mails on these topics anymore, once the project is completed, because the points of dispute and areas where people (including those who claim to admire Alphatia) dislike it be resolved at long last. Jawing about it is pointless. But an actual project to resolve these things, even in favor of those who's views of Alphatia are too benign for my taste, might even be fun, and certaily will be more productive. Anyhow, self-evidently the only way to put these things to rest is to resolve them in ways you and I would disagree with, and which are indeed at diametrical odds with the Mystara we know, as described in the published accessories, but that's a small price to pay for peace of mind at this point. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:14:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy - Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > First off, see one of my initial posts on the topic re the issue of having centuries or thousands of years to build Skyships - attrition would tend to keep pace (or *more* than keep pace) with construction, for the reason that they are devilishly difficult, expensive, and costly to construct but, various defences asside, comparatively easy to destroy or steal ("comparitively easy" doesn't mean "so simple a chimp could do it" - but if a band of Karameikans can, or Glantrian spies, then it can't be all that difficult). How many "Mage-Years" does it take to build just one Man-of-War? And how many Alphatian mages want to devote their lives to this task, when they could be cavorting or engaging in their own private experiments (this is an example of the disconect: on the one hand, it is argued that the Alphatian Mages don't bother themselves with Empire-oriented tasks or serving the Empire diligently, but on the other hand it is said that they do - producing all sorts of magic items for use by the Empire rather than for their own individual amusement & pleasure.) Why? Because it earns them money to develop more of those magic items (Immortals! Now I can finally enchant that pocket dimension-chamberpot > Secondly, official published materiels definately implys a much smaller skynavy than people are discussing at the moment. It also tends to obviate against extra-ordinarily large skyship squadrons in the hands of the various Kingdoms. The published materiels don't, fortunately or unfortunately, give specific totals and dispositions, but it definately doesn't imply a large skynavy. Oh, where would you see this? The only think said on Man-of-War's is that the Alphatian Navy uses "many" of them. On smaller ships one might compare the Heldannic Territories having 15 smal Warbirds (comparable to a Corvette) and 5 Large Warbirds (comparable to a frigate) at just 250,000 oppressed people and a non-magic oriented population. > How can one reach this conclusion? > (1) The larger the skyfleet, the less likely that a significant proportion of it would have been destroyed all in one place (Aasla in Haven). Untrue, if you sail into Scapa Flow and blast it to pieces during WWI, you take out at least half of the Royal Navy. > (2) The larger the skyfleet, and the more impervious it is to being affected by other nations (Thyatis, the Ks, whoever), then the logical conclusion would be that Alphatia would simply have flown to Glantri directly, and not bothered with that "intermediate" stuff (which forms the entire Wrath War). Not true, you can't just abandon your defenses and go all-out in your attack, Alphatia is huge, it has to be patrolled, it has many enemies and large expanses of sea between their colonies that need to be patrolled. > A large Skynavy with circa 100 Men-of-War (25,000 marines, if we go by Michael's figures, 40,000 if we go by the actual description of Man-of-War) The Designer's Manual states that Man-of-Wars have 200-400 marines, I assumed the 400 marine ships would be flagships etc. But we can make them all 400 marine ships if you like (in fact the cargobay could be used to stash more in, but then we're talking Troop Ships and not Fighting Ships. , and twice that many (give or take) "lesser" ships (capable of transporting anywhere from about 15,000 - 20,000, or more, troops), then they simply would have flown them to Glantri and conquered it without bothering with any of the intervening territory (Asside: people seem to have trouble making the connections between their proposals and the implications of those proposals). Hey, Glantri has stuff too, Volospin Aedir has designed Dragonfly Airships too, there are dragons etc. And not to forget dozens if not hundreds of powerful mages and a cheating immortal with a beserk weapon of mass destruction. > Now, we may pick at WotI for a variety of reasons, but WotI *is*. So the Skynavy couldn't be all that huge. . .not per the official world of Mystara. Again, where do you find this data > But it does seem like creating a huge, unmatchable Skynavy would form a natural part of the Alphatian Re-Design Project. We can do that right after finishing with Re-Designing the populations of the various Kingdoms (I'll have some work-ups on that tonight, perhaps. I'm away from home at the moment and don't have any of my gaming stuff with me.) I'm starting on that too. Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:15:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Military Matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Where does it say that the Alphatian Military is good quality? Page number would be helpful. I can find it from there - if it's in there. . . I've used this quote a couple of times: p.14 and 15 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:19:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I disagree with trying to find unlikely and undocumented explanations for >unlikely and apparently wrong facts laid out in canon material. >Correcting it is better. >What exactly that Geoff said are you disagreeing with? The concept of the >Illmaryll wars that he made up being a possible source of the elves' woes? Or >something else? What I'm saying is that we're trying to find various explanations for an obvious discrepancy. 1.Something in the water 2. Civil War 3. Hidden Kingdoms (Might be a good one, but I think a thousand Grand Councillors would be able to deal with rogue nations) 4. Falling civilization 5. Wizards disinterested in building a family, even when you grow to a thousand years of age, you want to grow a family sometime. And the slaves would certainly breed, after all the nobles are only 20% of the population. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:24:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really can't believe people think that Alphatia is too little populated or not powerful enough. And I hope this will be considered as a serious statement, so I won't sign with my well known alias. I think Alphatia and Thyatis were built to be quite equal powers, and DotE has been good in this aspect (much more than the PWA's). If we change Alphatia, then we should re-shape the Old World. And all at the cost of RPG (more people, less fun, less monsters, less unsettled areas, less space for PC's). If we don't change the OW but re-shape Alphatia, well then we can have Alphatia conquering Mystara, too. Nothing but divine intervention could prevent them from it. Giulio Caroletti. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:28:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatian Re-Design Project Mystara wrote: > I disagree with trying to find unlikely and undocumented > explanations for unlikely and apparently wrong facts laid > out in canon material. Correcting it is better. > Well, I for one tend to agree with such things - finding explainations for apparently incongruous situations is one of the better ways of expressing creativity. The canon materiels aren't "wrong" and in need of "correction" - because the original designer/writer of something about a fantasy world cannot, by definition be "wrong" - it's all made up out of their creativity. Now, subsiquent people who misunderstand or distort what someone wrote can be described as being "wrong", "factually inaccurate" given what we know. If I said that in AC 1000 Ethengar was ruled by a Council of Wizards of Glantrian origin, I'd be wrong - the Ethengar Gaz describes how Ethengar is governed (Moglai as Khan, etc). "Canon" writers can be "wrong" by being inconsistant/unfaithful to previously published materiel - but the "original description" of a fantasy nation cannot be wrong or in need of correction, any more than Charles Dickens can be "wrong" about one of the characters in his novels - we mig! ! ht find literary fault here and there, but by definition there is nothing "inaccurate" that we can claim to be able to "correct". On the other hand, we can re-write, re-design, and *change* things if we feel like it. But let's set asside the notion that we can then claim that the result of those alterations are the same thing as the original, or that all we did was "correct" things, not change anything. I for one am willing to help, even co-ordinate, a Re-Design Project, but this notion, that many seem to press (not just you), that alterations are not changes is simply a form of delusion. Make a new Alphatia? One that more closely fits people's impressions and desires of what it should be? Fine by me - that's a creative project, and would also fit within Ironwolf's parameters (because Adventurers would then be wandering through this mileu, and experiencing the Re-Designed Alphatia). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Military Matters Mystara wrote: > I've used this quote a couple of times: > p.14 and 15 > Ok - I'll look it up when I get home. I don't remember it saying anywhere that Alphatia's army was "small in size but good in quality" - or anything to that effect. But if it does say they have quality troops, I'll stand corrected. But at this point, if I may say so, I'm very familiar with what DotE says - and I don't recall ever seeing anything like that. But it could have slipped my attention. I will look it up, and if you're right, you're right. If you're wrong. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:53:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Yeah, but Alphatia doesnt currently have a world spanning Empire. And even > if it did, most of it wouldnt need such a huge fleet to garrison it. Well...it does have a continent the size of africa and more colonies of equal size > The British didnt have dreadnoughts garrisoning the places where the natives > were armed with sharpened mango fruit... which is the equivalent most of > Mystara is in when compared to a Man o War, which is an immensely powerful > killing machine which employs exceptionally high level magics in its > construction. There were dreadnoughts at Scapa Flow, Southampton, Gibraltar, Singapore, Malta and a couple more places, I wish I had my Jane's here. And remember the Prince of Wales and the Repulse were sunk in the Far East in WWII > OK, grant that. An Alphatian man o war would cost that just for the > mundane construction - and the magical prowess required would be far more of > a resouce drain. No, the COMPLETE cost for a Man of War is stated at 5 million gp in CofM. But remember, magic is common place in Alphatia, they use it for public transport, waste disposal etc. It's not the rare comodity it is in most KW nations. > Besides, value is relative. I wonder how much Nelson would have payed to > get his mitts on the USS Nimitz? It would have been better if I talked > about difficulty to make rather than value. An Alphatian man o war is > pretty darn powerful. For example, Karameikos would have precisely zero > chance of making one of those babies if the entire place worked on it - at > least, until Terari came along. And even then it would mean Terari hard at > work enchanting for probably several years. That is a truly immense > resource drain on a nation. The Imperial Eagle that Thyatis built after just a few years fidgeting, given that it was with Alphatian assistance, appears to be a Man-of-War and Zandor created one with his private fortune on one of the AS islands without a sweat (see PWA 1016). Also having built three alphatian Warbirds, two private yachts and assorted stuff. > Yeah, but those thousand 36th level wizards are probably facing a thousand > 36th level fighters in Thyatis. > As for planet wrecking, that was 2000 years ago in a plane with different > magical laws than Mystara. Frankly, that is entirely irrelevant. The > Persians used to be a great Empire 2000 years ago, and nowadays Iraq hardly > compares. Who cares about fighters, one earthquake and they're all dead as a dodo, generalizing slightly, but a think like etienne did, many wizards could also do, and apparently they were doing more than sufficient damage in Glantri if it caused Etienne to use his Doomsday weapon as a last ditch effort. > May be, but you are forgetting the magical element here again. The real > world has gunpowder, Mystara has magic. A more far reaching force if ever > there was one. I disagree, but gunpowder isn't magic, TECHNOLOGY is magic. > Yes, but you are changing the planet. You are changing Alphatia from a > Skyship of Love more or less equal opponent to Thyatis to an Ubernation > without compare. Worse, you are missing an opportunity to make the planet > richer. Sure, the Man o War cutout is very pretty, but the idea of having > identical ships throughout time - dont you find that a little dull? Not throughout time, but I''m not going to refute that argument for a third time. And no, it's not an �bernation, the Alphatians CANNOT be united sufficiently, that''s the whole clue of Alphatia. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project Mystara wrote: > I really can't believe people think that Alphatia is too > little populated or not powerful enough. > Believe it or not, it's true; people think Alphatia - though having more people than any other two nations combined and being noted for having large numbers of powerful wizards - needs to be made more heavily populated and that its power should be enhanced even further. > I think Alphatia and Thyatis were built to be quite equal > powers, and DotE > Well, the good thing about the Alphatia Re-Design Project is that when it's over (and actually a lot of work on this subject has been completed, so all that really needs to be done is synthesize it in one document. Perhaps a website to collect it all), you'll be able to free up valuable shelf space. Because you can put DotE right into the shredder, and use it to line your catbox or birdcage. 8-) > If we don't change the OW but re-shape Alphatia, > well then we can have Alphatia conquering Mystara, too. > I pointed that out a couple times but the consensus appears to be that such concerns are irrelivant, the need to agrandize Alphatia too important for such concerns to be given any weight or consideration. The general will must prevail. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:10:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy - Alphatia Re-Design Project Mystara wrote: > Why? Because it earns them money to develop more of those magic > items > There are easier ways to make money that doesn't take up so much of their time (if they're enchanting hundreds of skyships, they have no time for that chamberpot) - just get their slaves & wogs to grow, build, or craft things for them to sell to fund their activities. But you bring up another point: look at what it costs to hire a powerful Alphatian Wizard for just a *week*. That's four times as much as it costs to hire non-Alphatians. Why? It isn't because of scarcity of supply - as pointed out numerous times, Alphatia has more mages than any other nation. So there's another reason: the Alphatian Wizards are reluctant to spend their valuable time working on someone else's project when they can do their own thing or zone themselves out on Zzonga. > Oh, where would you see this? > DotE, WotI, as I already explained at length. > Untrue, if you sail into Scapa Flow and blast it to pieces > during WWI, you take out at least half of the Royal Navy. > Repeat after me: Alphatia is not Britain. These analogies have been pushed too far already. No one "sailed into Aasla and blasted it to pieces", btw. It was burned in a chance cataclysm. Alphatia's mainland naval (sea, admitedly) base is at Eagret, not Haven. Alphatia is highly likely to have significant aerial assets at Sundsvall (there's no reason they have to be at a seaside port, since they don't sail the seas), Draco (a main military community), and the like. Folks cannot simoultaniously argue that each Alphatian Kingdom would field part of an airship fleet and then argue that they'd all be stationed in Aasla. > Not true, you can't just abandon your defenses and > go all-out in your attack, Alphatia is huge, it has > to be patrolled, it has many enemies and large expanses > of sea between their colonies that need to be patrolled. > Of course it's true. (1) A navy, of any sort, is as much a "power projection" force as anything else. (2) Alphatia can be patrolled by ground forces or sailing fleets. (3) Part of the assumption behind this entire thing is in effect a "proof" that Alphatia's skyfleet is effectively a super-force with no peer or compeditor on the planet (this is the consiquence of the totals that have been argued) - Alphatia could leave a fraction of the fleet behind, even after having a fraction destroyed in Aasla, and easily crush Glantri. Neither Thyatis, the HKs, nor anyone else could have prevented this. Since this is the obvious *goal* behind arguments to the effect that there is or ought to be a huge Alphatian skynavy with no peer on Mystara, then at least don't pretend that it isn't. It's a big problem when people refuse to accept or admit to the consiquences of their own proposed ideas. > stash more in, but then we're talking Troop Ships and > not Fighting Ships. > They function as both, like Galleons had (this is the analogy that was used, so use it) - they'd have nothing to fight in the air, right? Or are we going to give various other countries skyship fleets of comparable size that would threaten Alphatia's? If not, then in effect many of the ships would have their greatest utility transporting marines for airborne assault (this is how Alex depicted his Randel Skyship fleet, btw) - since they have little or nothing to fight in the sky, no one else having any aerial assets of size significant enough to fight them. > Hey, Glantri has stuff too, Volospin Aedir has designed > Dragonfly Airships > Are you trying to say that thoes Dragonflys are comparable to a Man-of-War? > And not to forget dozens if not hundreds of powerful mages > Doing what? The "general will" has decreed that only Alphatia has a skyship navy (other nations might be permited to have one or two, or in the case of the HKs a small force of significantly weaker skyships, but nothing that would pose a threat to a 300-400 ship Alphatian skynavy.) > a cheating immortal with a beserk weapon of mass destruction. > Do you mean Valerias? No Immortal "cheated". . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:36:06 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Population Revision (was]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael III Mysteria wrote: > > What I'm saying is that we're trying to find various explanations for a= n >obvious discrepancy. > >1.Something in the water Said with tongue in cheek (as I've stated). Sort of like Bruce's suggesti= on that the Immortals created flying fish for the people of the Floating Continent of Alphatia. >2. Civil War Where has it been said that there *wasn't* a civil war among the Shiye el= ves? If anything, their split from the Sylvan elves seems to set a precedent t= hat such a possibility could have occurred... >3. Hidden Kingdoms (Might be a good one, but I think a thousand Grand >Councillors would be able to deal with rogue nations) Not if they're unconcerned with the nations, or have come to accords with= them already. = >4. Falling civilization Civilizations go into decline regularly, and with varying periods. Just t= he suggestion that the Alphatians may be in decline doesn't mean tht they ar= e in danger of falling apart any time soon. Think hundreds or thousands of yea= rs. And again, there is precedent for an Alphatian decline- it's happened sev= eral times in their history- on the old world, and at least once on the new (n= ote the entry in DotE Player's Book of Alphatia that are headed "The First Decline". Seems to me that you wouldn't have a "first" decline if it were= the only one. = Reminds me of an Encyclopedia Brown story, where a bully was touting his "geniune" civil war era sword, dated right after the first Battle of Bull= Run, and bearing the same legend. The key is, it couldn't have been authentic,= because at the time the sword was dated, there had been no second Battle = of Bull Run, and the participants would have had no way of knowing that ther= e would ever be a second Battle of Bull Run.) >5. Wizards disinterested in building a family, even when you grow to a >thousand years of age, you want to grow a family sometime. And the slave= s >would certainly breed, after all the nobles are only 20% of the >populat= ion. There is precedent in modern times for this (at least in the U.S>). Studi= es show that lower class, lower educated people are far more likely to raise= families, and have more kids than do people with, say, college educations= and post-baccalaureate educations. Something to do with the theory that the b= etter educated people are concentrating on their careers rather than their fami= lies. (And, if you ask me, it explains why people seem to be getting dumber all= the time...) Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:54:52 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: New Monster: Arakival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. Well, for my next adventure, I've developed a monster from the remnants of Ancient Blackmoor. For the enjoyment of all, here's the info. If anyone sees something they think could be improved, by all means let me know! (P.S. sorry for the formatting trouble in e-mail) IronWolf Arakival Lesser Lesser Greater Greater (Soldier) (Commander) (Special Ops) (Guardian) _____________________________________________________________________________ C/T: Any Any Any Any Frequency: Very Rare Very Rare Very Rare Very Rare Organization: Group Group Group/Solitary Solitary Activity Cycle: Any Any Any Any Diet: Non- Non- Non- Non- Intelligence: Low (5-7) Very (11-12) Ex (15-16) Avg (8-10) Treasure: A A A A Alignment: Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral No. Appearing: 1-10 1-4 1-2 1 Armor Class: 2 0 -2 -4 Movement: 12 12 12 9 Hit Dice: 4+2 6+3 10+2 14 THAC0: 16 14 10 5 No. Of Attacks: 1 1 2 3 Damage/Attack: 1d8 (fist) or weapon 3d4+2 (fist) 4d8+8 (fist) / 3d4+2 (fist) / 4d8+8 / or weapon 8d6 (eye) SA: See Below See Below See Below See Below SD: Spell Immunity Spell Immunity Spell Immunity Spell Immunity MR: 30% 40% 70% 90% Size: M (5') M (5') M (6') L (12') Morale: Fearless (20) Fearless (20) Fearless (20) Fearless (20) XP Value: 1,200 1,500 5,000 15,000 Arakival, more commonly known as "Stormknights", are a remnant of the lost Blackmoor civilization. They're an anthropomorphic android manufactured for garrison, reconnaissance, and military operations. They're typically found near an old Blackmoor research facility or factory, which will likely be well hidden, and they will guard fearlessly. Arakival are usually nonviolent outside a particular territory line which may not be obvious; they are obeying ancient programs of defense so their actions seem chaotic and terrifying to those unfortunate enough to encounter them. They defend their lairs with a single-minded intensity, but if a victim manages to cross the territorial line, they will turn away to return to a defense position. Very little is known of Arakival and their lairs, as they are almost never encountered. The Shadow Elves of Aegemor have ancient records dating back to their surface days that speak of 'metal men' that occupied the territory where they discovered the Blackmoor device that caused the destruction and formation of the Broken Lands. Beyond this there has been no further encounters in the Known World, likely Arakival would be encountered in more remote regions far away from civilization. Arakival appear to be humanoids in intricate steel armor. The nature of their design, which is modular, gives them a similar piecemeal appearance to medieval full plate and as a result most consider them living beings. Their face is marked by a long visor that glows, their optical sensors. They communicate through radio transmissions and rarely speak, if they do it will be in a stilted unrecognizable foreign tongue. (The language barrier cannot be broken through magical means, as the method by which they store their language is not accessible to spells such as comprehend languages.) Combat: Arakival fight in combat units, usually numbering 6-10 soldiers and one commander. The commander is indistinguishable from the soldiers; any single-classed fighter or character with appropriate combat/tactic proficiency can pick him out with a successful skill check. (For a fighter, base 10% chance with +5% for every level of experience.) Arakival will fight until they receive a command to return to base, take 50% casualties, or their commander is slain. Arakival are extremely tough in combat. They are immune to all normal weapons except crushing because of the resilience of their armor. Silver and cold iron has no extra effect; magical weapons do regular damage. Any blow has a 15% chance of giving the attacker a 1d4+1 electrical shock if using a metal weapon. They are immune to all illusion, sleep, charm, and hold spells, and enjoy magical resistance due to magical components used in their construction. Fire and cold attacks cause half-damage, electrical attacks either do half-damage or on a successful save heal an equivalent amount of hit points. Arakival can learn to fight with any weapon, but their typical weapon is a rod known as a fulmasec. A fulmasec appears to be an adamantite rod with grips at the center, but can alter into a number of weapons. It can extend and retract to form a quarterstaff, a large axeblade extends from one end to form a poleaxe, a point extends from the same end to make a spear, and the opposite end has prongs so it can shoot a lightning bolt doing 6d6 points of electrical damage. A typical fulmasec has 30+1d20 charges, each weapon transformation consumes one charge, and a lightning bolt costs three charges. Fulmasecs are typically recharged at the Arakival's base; they can also be magically recharged as a regular rod, but with a -2 penalty to their saving throw due to their technological nature. Greater Arakival are extremely rare and very powerful; they are only produced for specific complex tasks. Their armor is composed of an adamantite alloy and they are both stronger and larger. The Special Ops Arakival have the same adaptation abilities as their brethren but they have a base 60% chance to do so, and are typically prepared with a variety of skills and combat tactics to fight specific enemies. (Such as an invading party of adventurers.) Guardian Arakival are built to guard a specific region, and are simply very large and powerful, lacking the adaptation abilities. They can attack with their fists and fire an electrical charge from their eye. They're typically found at the entrance to a Arakival base. Arakival are frightening in they are quick to adapt new fighting methods and styles they observe. Arakival have a base 20% chance of acquiring the THAC0 and weapon proficiency of any enemy forces, with a bonus of 10% for every Arakival who witnessed the technique. The commander of the unit must still be functioning for this to work. Any unit that returns to their lair will download their acquired skills into the main computer, which will allow any factory unit to produce new Arakival with these skills automatically. Arakival always collect destroyed units if they can; they were programmed for maximum efficiency and collection of basic parts for recycling. If they are unable to retrieve a body the Commander will issue a self-destruct to it which will render it molten slag one turn later. (Any individual within ten feet of the body will suffer 3d6 points of damage from the self-destruct.) Habitat/Society: Arakival are very similar to golems, they are an artificial construct that has no real habitat or place. Unlike a golem, however, Arakival are commanded by a central computer system that will be the heart of their lair. This central computer is well guarded by Arakival and various security systems. The central computer borders close to full sentience, and may choose to capture intruders and interrogate them rather than slay them outright. Clever characters may convince it that Blackmoor, the nation it served, is destroyed and gone and cause it to overload, or it may accept it without comment. It is not known exactly what Arakival want; the few reported encounters have shown them to be territorial but uninterested in expansion. Sometimes this can change, however, if the central computer decides to pursue a course of conquest. If the central computer of any Arakival lair is destroyed all Arakival will self-destruct, unless another Arakival base is nearby and the central computer there can override them. Ecology: Arakival are not natural creatures, and play little part in the ecology of the region they inhabit. They do not need to eat or drink to survive; they receive power from their base reactor. (Some of the bases rely on geothermal or solar power; others are more exotic, dependent upon lightning storms or tidal waves.) Arakival are manufactured by base facilities set up to create units, they are typically produced as combat units, bases with facilities in good condition typically produce units at a rate of ten a month. A typical base will have 40-150 Arakival units total; most of these will be dispersed over a wide region for scouting and garrison duty. Parts and repair are often in short supply, which means Arakival may be sent out on expeditions to retrieve metal, magical items, and even raw ore. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:04:50 -0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy - Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The only think said on Man-of-War's is that the Alphatian Navy uses "many" >of them. On smaller ships one might compare the Heldannic Territories having >15 smal Warbirds (comparable to a Corvette) and 5 Large Warbirds (comparable >to a frigate) at just 250,000 oppressed people and a non-magic oriented >population. Well, the Territories is a theocracy - ie, it is a magically powerful as a magocracy. Vanya gives them those warbirds. They pray, they get a warbird. Good deal huh? Beats 50 mage years of enchantment anyway, or whatever it may be :) certainly as far as magic items are concerned, a cleric is the equal of the wizard. As anyone who has attempted to break into a temple will know. A theocracy is IMO a far more dangerous and powerful nation than a magocracy. Especially one like the Heldannic Territories. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:08:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > IMO, it's not even comparable to that - I go back to my comparison with building a B2 Stealth Bomber. It's probably (in fact, certainly) a much more difficult task to build one of those than it is to build, say, a WWII era Aircraft Carrier. I can agree on that and tell you that the USA built nearly TWO HUNDRED of those in just 4 years (from 1941-1945) and that's just the A/C-carriers > Also: again on the one hand doing this is said to be so devilishly difficult that only the Alphatians know how to enchant their type of skyships, but on the other hand it's said to be no big deal, they can be made by the dozens, hundreds. Disconect? Magic is commonplace in Alphatia, so there would be hundreds flying around the continent, so three hundred or so in the navy is far from unlikely > > Well at a stroke you have negated the entire Cold War > > aspect of Mystara which I thought was so interesting > > and made Mystara unique. > > > As people have pointed out to me when I made a similar argument, that's no big deal. > > > The argument that Alphatia easily could wreck the planet, > > but does not, simply doesnt wash, and it doesnt even make > > for a good setting for adventure - which is, after all, > > the point. > > > Well, consider that an unfortunate unintended (?) consiquence of the Alphatia Re-Design Project. But IMO, >and just IMO, it's probably worth it if only to finally resolve these issues to the satisfaction of those for whom >Alphatia isn't heavily populated enough (dispite having more people than any other two Mystaran nations you >can name), militarily strong enough, or whatnot. It's not as if I personally favor most of the changes that will be >made, either. But at least once they're done, they'll be done - and folks like Ironwolf hopefully won't have to be >inundated with mails on these topics anymore, once the project is completed, because the points of dispute and >areas where people (including those who claim to admire Alphatia) dislike it be resolved at long last. Jawing >about it is pointless. But an actual project to resolve these things, even in favor of those who's views of >Alphatia are too benign for my taste, might even be fun, and certaily will be more productive. I think Alphatia would be more believable with a decent population density (by the way, the lowest I found in ANY real world nation is 2 people per mile in Mongolia and that's higher than nearly all mainland nations, let alone the Alphatian colonies) and perhaps a standing army of 1% and wartime army if AT MOST 5%, but more likely 2% or so. Only if the continent would come under any real attack could they exceed a 5% standing army, though the emperor would by then have been slain by the grand council etc.) > Anyhow, self-evidently the only way to put these things to rest is to resolve them in ways you and I would >disagree with, and which are indeed at diametrical odds with the Mystara we know, as described in the >published accessories, but that's a small price to pay for peace of mind at this point. 8-) It's a nice discussion though ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:26:28 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I don't see how you can compare the RN to the Alphatian Skyfleet. First, the RN built all those ships in response to WW1 and WW2, and when that threat was over I assume they decomitioned those ships because they cost way to much money to maintain. Alphatia I believe has more money than the RN, but they don't really need hundreds of man-o-war's in active duty. after giving the matter long thought, the only logical answer to the problem is Alphatia did indeed build many man-o-war's. the bulk of those ships are not active, but rather mouthballed like all american battleships. they are only called into active duty when there is a threat to the empire. the only ships keeped active are the ones needed to show imperial might(and perform patrols). Also it may be a strike to there huge egoes if the world feared them because of there skyships and not their magic. I know skyships are the love of almost all Alphatian wizards, so maybe it wont be an ego killer(I dont know its just a thought). Also in regards to the "priveteer" statment I made earlier. I define "priveteer" as anyone who owns a skyship and leases the ships use to the empire in times of war. so in times of peace, the ships would not appear in the fleets roosters. in times of war the fleets roosters would swell with every ship offered to the empire. I would also like to note that I have not had this computer(or any computer)for very long and have not read all the PWA's on the net(i've only read up to AC1015) so I'm in the past compared to other Mystarains, so if I say something that is not up to date, please inform me of my errors. Thank you, King >From: Rob >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Skynavy >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:59:59 -0000 > > >Well, there were 24 dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow fleet which >participated > >at Jutland. Plus the battlecruisers. > > >Here we go, this is what I was thinking about... Substitute battleships >for >men 'o war, battlecruisers for skyfrigates (ie, big skybrigs), cruisers for >skybrigs and smaller ships (skysloops and stuff) for destroyers. > >24 battleships (+ another 4 fast battleships, forgot those) >9 battlecruisers >33 cruisers >78 destroyers > >Not bad from memory, eh? :) Granted that is only the RN ships deployed to >the North Sea, but the situation for Alphatia is not dissimilar. They only >need skyships posted on the western side, facing the Territories and >Thyatis. There were indeed some RN warships elsewhere, but there Alphatia >and 1914 UK become very different, as Alphatia does not have to garrison >far >flung outposts from a variety of foes with comparable technology. > >A force that size is Ample for Alphatia. In fact, its unnecessarily large >if anything. After all - a skyship is useful only for naval/air >superiority >and troop deployment. They are useless as a garrison force, in fact they >are probably exceptionally vulnerable in that role. The force above is >easily enough to more than counter any other two skyship forces combined on >the planet (which dictated the size of the Royal Navy in the RW.) Why >would >it need to be bigger? > >If it was, other nations (particularly the Heldannic Territories) would >have >much larger skyfleets of their own to make up for this. A classic arms >race. 20 warbirds in the Territories would just be a joke if facing 90 men >o war. Vanya would be letting priests mass produce these things if that >was >the case, till they had at least 50. >The PWA order of battle as given simply does not mesh with such an immense >Alphatian force as 90 men o war. > >Cheers > >Rob > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mystara wrote: > > IMO, it's not even comparable to that - I go back to my comparison with building a B2 Stealth Bomber. It's probably (in fact, certainly) a much more difficult task to build one of those than it is to build, say, a WWII era Aircraft Carrier. > I can agree on that and tell you that the USA built nearly TWO > HUNDRED of those in just 4 years (from 1941-1945) and that's > just the A/C-carriers > The US built 200 B-2 Stealth Bombers between '41 and '45? Wow, I hadn't known that. Thanks for the information - I'm going to have to get in contact with my History professors, for they woefully failed me! > Magic is commonplace in Alphatia, so there would be hundreds > flying around the continent, so three hundred or so in the > navy is far from unlikely. > Magic is commonplace - sure, you can have all sorts of spellcasters. Grotesquely expensive magic items are another matter entirely. Oh, one (more) correction on something you said: Alphatian Men of War do not cost "5,000,000 gp in total" to construct - they cost 5,600,000 to enchant, NOT including the enchantment fees/hiring the Wizards (some nations might have public spirited sorts willing to donate their time, but not Alphatia. Well, not the "canon" Alphatia. Re-Design Alphatia is another matter, of course.) 300 in the navy is hardly likely. Btw, references to "oppressed people" in other nations (Heldann or wherever) is like the pot calling the kettle black - Most of Alphatia's population is ground-down, severely opressed slaves and servants, suffering at the lash of the magical aristocracy. Of course, that too is per the "canon" description. Post Re-Design I'm sure things will be different. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:38:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't see how you can compare the RN to the Alphatian Skyfleet. Didn't start those real-world analogies > First, the RN built all those ships in response to WW1 and WW2, and when > that threat was over I assume they decomitioned those ships because they > cost way to much money to maintain. Hmmm not entirely true, they didn't build them in anticipation of the WW's but as part of their Empire policies. After WW1, the War to End all Wars, most ships were mothballed since there wouldn't be another war. After the second war the battleships had lost their position to carriers and those, except for the little escort carriers, remained in service untill the depression in the 50's, serving through vietnam etc. >Alphatia I believe has more money than > the RN, but they don't really need hundreds of man-o-war's in active duty. > after giving the matter long thought, the only logical answer to the problem > is Alphatia did indeed build many man-o-war's. the bulk of those ships are > not active, but rather mouthballed like all american battleships. they are > only called into active duty when there is a threat to the empire. I agree completely, in fact I suggested this before, big ships in service or moored in port, small ships in civil service. >the only > ships keeped active are the ones needed to show imperial might(and perform > patrols). Also it may be a strike to there huge egoes if the world feared > them because of there skyships and not their magic. I know skyships are the > love of almost all Alphatian wizards, so maybe it wont be an ego killer(I > dont know its just a thought). > Also in regards to the "priveteer" statment I made earlier. I define > "priveteer" as anyone who owns a skyship and leases the ships use to the > empire in times of war. so in times of peace, the ships would not appear in > the fleets roosters. in times of war the fleets roosters would swell with > every ship offered to the empire. Very agreeable Now, since I started this discussion, if I may be so bold and Leroy is okay with this, I would like to tie an end to this discussion, since I think nearly everything has been said. I'll take all opinions into account and I'll try to produce a Skynavy that's agreeable to as many people as possible or at least can easily be modified to fit everybodies campaigns. Everybody thanks for your responses and ideas, Michael III Mysteria ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:44:27 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: wuoldn't it be nice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/14/00 7:14:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time, kinglosser@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Wouldn't it be nice to have a nation located on the Thotian Plateu? >> Hmmm... somewhere out there I once posted information on the Stone Folk, a race of beings that lived in (as in above ground and below) the rocky desert regions of the Great Escarpment. I think it *might* be on Shawn's site... Never did post a PWA style entry for the current kingdom though... Hmm... James A. Mishler Magister Mystaros Check out my website: www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/1437/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:47:54 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: NPC's?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if anyone on the list would allow me to use them as an NPC in my campaign? I am looking for interesting, colorful characters if possible. If you think that it would be OK for me to use you, just say so and i won't have to go through all the red tape of copyright law, litigation, royalties and such. Thank You! Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ps. ANYONE can use me in their campaign, although i'm not sure that they'd want to . . . I'm a level 3/4/3 FTM Elven Infiltrator, and my description can be found on shawn stanley's site i think. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:52:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > IMO, it's not even comparable to that - I go back to my comparison with building a B2 Stealth Bomber. It's probably (in fact, certainly) a much more difficult task to build one of those than it is to build, say, a WWII era Aircraft Carrier. > > I can agree on that and tell you that the USA built nearly TWO > > HUNDRED of those in just 4 years (from 1941-1945) and that's > > just the A/C-carriers > > > The US built 200 B-2 Stealth Bombers between '41 and '45? Wow, I hadn't known that. Thanks for the information - I'm going to have to get in contact with my History professors, for they woefully failed me! You really don't want to read this the right way, right? Read the sentence after the B-2 Stealth Bomber..........yeah....check....get it. 'kay > > Magic is commonplace in Alphatia, so there would be hundreds > > flying around the continent, so three hundred or so in the > > navy is far from unlikely. > > > Magic is commonplace - sure, you can have all sorts of spellcasters. Grotesquely expensive magic items are >another matter entirely. In fact we're talking public transportation, flying pleasure vessels etc etc > Oh, one (more) correction on something you said: Alphatian Men of War do not cost "5,000,000 gp in total" >to construct - they cost 5,600,000 to enchant, NOT including the enchantment fees/hiring the Wizards (some >nations might have public spirited sorts willing to donate their time, but not Alphatia. Well, not the "canon" >Alphatia. Re-Design Alphatia is another matter, of course.) Public Service, conscription, professional consultancy hired from Imperial Treasury, you name it, besides if the Wizards at Honour Island create warships.... But like I said, I feel this discussion has about run it's course. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:33:01 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: ranma Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I think Alphatia would be more believable with a decent population density >(by the way, the lowest I found in ANY real world nation is 2 people per >mile in Mongolia and that's higher than nearly all mainland nations, let Is that for modern Mongolia or for Mongolia in the middle ages? Most modern nations have far higher population densities than in Medieval/Renaissance cultures. Alphatia is quite low, though. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:50:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: ranma Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >===== Original Message From Mystara ===== >Mystara wrote: >> I really can't believe people think that Alphatia is too >> little populated or not powerful enough. >> >Believe it or not, it's true; people think Alphatia - though having more people than any other two nations combined and being noted for having large numbers of powerful wizards - needs to be made more heavily populated and that its power should be >enhanced even further. > I don't think Alphatia is too weak; I think that the population figures given for it are unbelievable unless one abandons the picture of Alphatian society given in the canonical material itself. DotE did not give me the impression that vast amounts of Alphatia were unoccupied wastelands, which they would have to be in order for the population levels to make sense. Given that the Alphatian Players book in DotE says that Modern Alphatians are not particularly interested in conquest, but are instead directed towards the beautification of their nation and indifferent to imperial expansion, I don't see increasing the population of Alphatia as inherently leading to some sort of Alphatian uberjihad in which they reduce everyone else to rubble. Just to add to the fleet debate, I think the cost of employing mages, which Alphatian Skyships need in large numbers for their crews, inherently forces them to not maintain a very large fleet, especially of the large ships. It costs 6,000 GP a year to employ a single first level mage, and it gets worse as they go up in level. Given the use of boltmen on the Skyships, a large fleet would quickly become ludicrously expensive. >I pointed that out a couple times but the consensus appears to be that such >concerns are irrelivant, the need to agrandize Alphatia too important for such >concerns to be given any weight or consideration. The general will must >prevail. > Do you ever actually listen to what anyone else is saying? Leaving out the fact that no one can actually oppose their opinions on anyone else on this list, not everyone who thinks the Alphatian population figures are too low to be believable is out to turn Alphatia into all powerful conquerors. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:53:51 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update, added Arakival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I've made some slight changes and additions to my new monsters, which can now be found on my website. Commentary is welcome, if anyone will drag themselves away from the Alphatia discussion. :) And yeah, I created them for my next adventure. I'll likely post the entire thing when finished on my website. The working title is "Citadel of Thunder". IronWolf http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: ranma Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >===== Original Message From Mystara ===== >I really can't believe people think that Alphatia is too little populated or not >powerful enough. I can. It's 11 times the size of Medieval France with half the population. It's 42 times the size of Thyatis with only about twice the population. >And I hope this will be considered as a serious statement, so I won't >sign with my well known alias. >I think Alphatia and Thyatis were built to be quite equal powers, and DotE >has been good in this aspect (much more than the PWA's). If we Population does not equal power. If it did, canonical Alphatia should crush Thyatis flat because it would have enough mages to kill everyone in Thyatis several times over. The Council of a Thousand Mages could easily teleport to Thyatis City and turn it into an ashpile in hours. The mere existence of such a thing, if one considers sheerly population levels, SHOULD outclass Thyatis to the point that they die horribly. But they don't. And it's not because Alphatia has exactly X population and Thyatis has Y, where Y is some figure close to, but not quite reaching X. It's because the whole point of the Alphatian/Thyatis conflict is a clash of cultures and ideas. It's the conflict between the vastly more powerful nation which because its rulers are self-centered, lazy, and more interested in art and fashion design than conquest does not live up to its potential and the smaller but more disciplined nation which, with all its backstabbing and deceit, ultimately has the virtues which make a nation achieve great things. Thyatis doesn't hold off Alphatia because its population is close in size to Alphatia's; it holds them off because Thyatis is a nation which lives up to its potential, while the Alphatians are not. This is, after all, an RPG, a story, where numbers and the like take second place to storytelling. I do not see increasing the size of Alphatia's population as necessitating an increase of its power, because as I understand what DotE says about Alphatia, the Alphatians don't live up to their potential, and are uninterested for the most part in conquest and expansion (see the history of Alphatia in the APG in DotE). The immortals of Alphatia are all uninterested as well, reflecting their nation; Alphatia has no war immortal of its own, and note that the patron of conquest sides against them in WotI, despite having no clear stake in the war one way or another. To say that increasing Alphatia's population inevitably leads to it having to conquer the world and everyone else becoming insignificant peons is simply not the case. It contradicts the definition of Alphatian culture given in DotE, and a larger population simply means everyone can have more slaves and servants. Alphatia is not a militaristic society, and increased population does not simply mean a larger, better army/navy/skyfleet or whatever. If population did equal power, rather than narrative demands and what makes for a good story being the key to how things turn out in the Known World, then Thyatis should have retaliated for Karameikos' betrayal of it during the WotI by overrunning it once the war was over. After all, Karameikos only has 300,000 people. It couldn't possibly stop 3 million Thyatians, now could it? And if there was anyone Thincol had reason to be angry at who wasn't already dead and gone, it was Duke Stefan Karameikos. Yet, Karameikos retains its independance. Because of who? Darokin and the Shires? Thyatis should be able to eat both of them for breakfast and have room for brunch. With no Alphatia to worry about, why isn't Thyatis overruning its neighbors? Why not invade Ylarum and finally get even? Thyatis outnumbers the Ylari 12 to 1 now. Why not finally crush those annoying Irendi, or all those other nations with dinky populations which have somehow successfully defied Thyatis despite having populations smaller than the capital city? The Known World's history is driven by narrative demands, not by raw population numbers, or who, in theory should be able to field the largest army. And yet, sometimes the numbers nag me, sometimes I find various things stretch my 'suspension of disbelief'. To me, I need to have realistic population levels (within the changes set by the fact that this is a fantasy world, of course), or it gnaws at me. I don't consult those figures and say 'This country can whip this country's butt because it has more people'. But they make me better able to believe in the reality of the world, and that helps me exercise my creativity in it. Alphatia should have a big population, or else it has to be mostly empty, which to me makes no sense--humans almost always expand in numbers to fill all available space--but because it fills the narrative role of 'people who just don't live up to their potential', more people doesn't necessarily demand they gain worldbusting power. >well then we can have Alphatia conquering Mystara, too. Nothing but >divine intervention could prevent them from it. > Hardly. In a nation of people who prefer pleasure to work, population does not equal military might. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:36:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Do you ever actually listen to what anyone else is saying? > Of course I do. Which is why I've come to the conclusion that my preferences to the contrary, these others should get there way - Alphatia should be Re-Designed. Question is if anyone else actually listens to what others are saying, because various explanations have been offered as to why Alphatia's population might be what it is stated as being, but those have been ignored and/or dismissed out of hand by most of those who feel the population should be increased - you're a case in point. But that's fine with me. I'll do a work up of a Re-Designed Population tonight. > Leaving out the > fact that no one can actually oppose their opinions on anyone else on this > list, not everyone who thinks the Alphatian population figures are too low to > be believable is out to turn Alphatia into all powerful conquerors. > But a large segment of others do. Why should you have your concerns adressed in the Re-Design and their concerns not be? There's no reason why the population should be magnified but other things left alone - at least as many people support such changes as support a magnified population. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:50:41 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Resources on the Web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A fellow surfer on one of the other lists I am on (an Angel of a fellow, so to speak) posted this to that other list... this page really is incredible, and should help immensely with various Mystara projects. Check it out! http://hobgoblin.net/resources/createlink3.asp Here's a partial list of the SUBJECT headings for the links! Amazing! Ancient Civilizations Arms, Armor and Combat Castles Costume and Fashion Fantastical and Anomalous Creatures Food, Drink and Brewing Knights, Chivalry, Tournaments Historical Mysteries and Monuments Medieval Resources Music, Musicians and Instruments Period/Culture Specific Sourcebooks Renaissance Resources Secret Societies Other Topics of Interest ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:50:46 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > IMO, it's not even comparable to that - I go back to my comparison > with building a B2 Stealth Bomber. It's probably (in fact, certainly) a much > more difficult task to build one of those than it is to build, say, a WWII > era Aircraft Carrier. > > > I can agree on that and tell you that the USA built nearly TWO > > > HUNDRED of those in just 4 years (from 1941-1945) and that's > > > just the A/C-carriers > > > > > The US built 200 B-2 Stealth Bombers between '41 and '45? Wow, I hadn't > known that. Thanks for the information - I'm going to have to get in contact > with my History professors, for they woefully failed me! > You really don't want to read this the right way, right? > Read the sentence after the B-2 Stealth Bomber.....yeah....check....get > it. > I did read it. You said you were "agreeing on that" when I was saying that my comparison was with the building of a B2 Bomber, NOT an Aircraft Carrier. 'Kay? Alphatia certainly conscripts its non-spellcasters into service, but it's hard to read DotE and come to the conclusion that they conscript their mages into service. Of course, not everyone has access to DotE, or has read it. In "Military Matters" - > > Mystara wrote: > > DotE insists that the Imperial Alphatian Military is good QUALITY > > but small > > I'm now home at my own computer, so we can address this now. I then wrote: > > > Where does it say that the Alphatian Military is good quality? Page number > would be helpful. I can find it from there - if it's in there. . . > Mysteria replied: > > I've used this quote a couple of times: > p.14 and 15 > It is not a "quote". DotE does not "insist" that the Imperial Alphatian Military is good QUALITY. I turned to the page, and it says nothing about that. The Word "quality" is not mentioned on either page - in refference to the military, or any other factor. What you said doesn't even qualify as a paraphrase of DotE, much less an "insistance" by DotE to the effect that Alphatia's military is of good quality. The closest it comes is to say that the noble classes (the mages) are disinterested in the military (so much for them spending time enchanting warships), and as a result the non-magic users are allowed to arm their troops with real weapons instead of being marched off with bagpipes and daggers (what does this imply about Alphatia's mages competence as military leaders? What was it that Norman Schwartzkopf said about Saddam Hussein as a great military leader?). The closest DotE comes to any mention anywhere of the strength of Alphatia's military is to say it is "adiquate". If my proffessor were to say that my paper was "adiquate" I would hardly view this as a ringing endoursement of it's quality. Darokin's military could be described as "adiquate". Alfheim's might be described as "excellent". > > But like I said, I feel this discussion has about run it's course. > That it has. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael III Mysteria Wrote: ---------- > From: Michael III Mysteria > > Okay People, I'm working on a PWA for the 1000-1009 timespan. I will be > including War Machine Stats. > I'm working on Alphatia at the moment and would like everybodies opinion on > something. > At the end of the discussion, not sure why you asked this question - you seemed to have very definate ideas about what you felt the Alphatian skynavy's size and strength should be. If that's true, then what was the point of this excersise? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:16:00 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Bill Manley Subject: military matters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed If we dump 10 million people into Alphatia and incress the military strength they problably would not attack anyone. until their imperial doctrine changes(remember who started the wrath war?), this change doesn't have to be immortale induced. Zandor was King for a day and he seemed very agressive with the military.Furthermore, the Glanrians could not stop the golden khan, that seemes like a scaled down war between Thyatis and Alphatia. now that Alphatia sunk, Thyatis is the super-power of the OW, and imperialistic Thyatis quickly went on the offencive, their exuse-"to reclaim lost lands duing the wrath war" I'm sorry but Thotia, Ekto, and the other Dawn nations they "stole"were not theirs before the war. In responce the WDL (Western Defence Leage) was born. Also we could not just dump 10 million people into Alphatia, they would have to grow into the new population(to keep the game world consistant). Alphatia's enemies would see this military build up and respond in turn(their own military build up, sabotage, assinations ect.). This entire rant is based after the wrath war, and some of it is from AC 1015. King. "Armies are pawns, Nations are chessboards, and Kings are always in check." -Unknown Thyatian soldier after the siege of Trikelios AC 1011 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:20:19 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Alphatia Re-Design Project: Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the first in the series of actual efforts, rather than vague discussions without a point. The below will suggest "revised" populations for the various mainland Alphatian Kingdoms. Subsiquent posts will then describe outlying areas (formerly known as "colonial posessions"). Help with this project is welcomed, even encouraged - but as for speculative opinions, we've had quite a lot of those. So if you quibble with the below, give an alternative. What is it they say about opinions? Ranma & others: Your concerns about this project will be addressed by the fact that it will proceed in discrete "chunks" or modules, by topic. Thus, you need only adopt the changes you find agreeable. Basic Assumptions: First, the idea that a low Alphatian population might be explained by the presence of large wilderness areas or areas occupied by monsters or non-Alphatian Kingdoms tended to be dismissed (though IMO some of these ideas were *very* creative ways of explaining the DotE population levels, but still, my personal opinion isn't what count's here. It's the General Will that matters most). So on the mainland, Kingdoms will be presumed to have a density appropriate for settled areas with few monsters (well, few except for the ones presumably under the control of the mages themselves). The nest post, to follow in an hour or so (I hope) will get into the actual details of each country, based upon my calculations (though not nessissarily the ones I posted earlier). Again, these will be subject to modification based upon thoughtful suggestions & counter-proposals. But please fewer vague meanderings - IMO we've hashed that out enough, getting nothing accomplished. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:59:59 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Alphatia Re-Design Project: Populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Without further adu, a breakdown of possible populations, by kingdom, for the mainland - with some notes as to why. Aquas: 135,000 (DotE gives 60,000. The PWAs each give 50,000. The "wartime" Aquas armies come to 6,750, which would be 13.44% of 50,000, well within the permissable range. But the Warmach "population" states 135,000, and some prefer this figure, so it was adopted as a "consensus-building" measure). Ambur: 200,000 (This is the same as the DotE figure. Ambur is a small Kingdom, and in the frigid northern region - but this figure comes to 17 persons per square mile none the less. It will be employed as a rule of thumb for calculating some other Kingdoms, below). Floating Ar: 600,000 (50,000 on the floating "islets". This comes to about 11 persons per square mile, significantly less dense than nearby Ambur. So I guess there is room to adjust this upwards). Foresthome: 2,600,000 (yes, lots of trees here. But also more plains than people typically remember. And it's one of the largest Kingdoms in Alphatia. The above population still produces a density of less than 9 persons per square mile). Frisland: 1,200,000 (At the same latitude as Ambur, but lots of Frisland is covered in hills and mountains. So the population density only about 7.5 per square mile). Arogansa: 1,600,000 (Though this Kingdom occupies some of the more lush & beautiful lands in Alphatia, this density is slightly less than 12.5 - significantly less than that of Ambur.) Bettellyn: 2,000,000 (Bettelyn is mostly plains, likely suitable for agriculture. None the less, this density is only a bit more than 12 persons per square mile). Blackheart: 300,000 (Blackheart is "supposedly" dark woods, sparsely inhabited. But it probably wouldn't do to leave it's population so "low" as DotE describes). Eadrin: 600,000 (roughly the same density as nearby Arogansa). Greenspur: 1,250,000 (slightly greater density as nearby Arogansa). Haven: 3,800,000 (About 15 persons per square mile. Yes, Haven has some significant mountains, hills, and marshlands. But so does Darokin, and Haven has no "Orkland" that anyone's willing to admit to. As one of the longest-settled areas of Alphatia, it is I suppose appropriate that it have a fairly dense population. It is still not as dense as Ambur, however). Limn: 250,000 (Too many trogs would make Alphatia seem like an unbenevolent place {see later re Shiye-Lawr}, and Trollhattan isn't very large anyhow. So population remains the same as per DotE). Randel: 2,800,000 (Well, you can never have enough Randel guys, I suppose. The density here is aproximately the same as for Haven. No swamps in Randel, so. . .) Stonewall: 1,600,000 (Well, I know that the density here is high. But they can import food from elsewhere. Plus, Stonewall is about the only place in Alphatia that a sensible, self-respecting non-spellcaster would want to live. Of course, later modules in the Re-Design Project will likely make the rest of Alphatia more utopian even for non-Spellcasters, so this figure can be re-visited later if it seems too high, and adjusted downwards). Stoutfellow: 1,000,000 (Yes, per DotE the Dwarves &tc. haven't been in Alphatia long. But that is as fungible as anything else, so we may as well assume that Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings have been in Stoutfellow long enough to fully populate it. Stoutfellow is at least as large as Rockhome, which has a population of 1,000,000. So that is the number I used here). Shiye-Lawr: 1,000,000 (I made a mistake, I believe, and left this one out of my previous calculations in error. So bump those up by 60,000. In any case, Alfheim is fairly densly populated, considering. No real reason for Shiye-Lawr to be less densely populated. Plus, given the high reputation of elves among gamers, their presence {or lack theirof} and relative numbers is usually used as a rule-of-thumb to indicate how benign a nation is. So there should be lots of elves in a Re-Designed Alphatia. By comparison, a currently vocal list member who has done his own verson of the MAs, even more Alphatia-centric, has made a point of removing all the Elves he remembers exist from Thyatis, to show how bad he views them. So lots of Elves in Alphatia makes sense from that standpoint. And from the standpoint of those who are "only concerned with 'realistic' population densities", note that the density of Shiye-Lawr in the above total is still less than it is in Alfheim). Theranderol: 1,800,000 (Slightly less dense in population than Haven). Vertiloch: 2,000,000 (40 persons per square mile, but this is the Empire's showcase Kingdom, the seat of its ruler. 40 persons per square mile isn't that outlandish, I suppose). TOTAL MAINLAND ALPHATIA: 24,735,000 So, in effect, 25,000,000 (my margin of accuracy is probably +/- 1% anyhow, so in this case rounding is insignificant. Plus, the above doesn't include the "Imperial Territories" AKA "Zandoria" AKA "Jafilia" - and I find it hard to believe that *no one* lives there, even if they aren't settled or organized into a Kingdom). So, say 25,000,000 on the mainland, and that's probably a "conservative" estimate all things considered. If a larger monster population was imputed to Alphatia, or if it was accepted that much of it was very sparsely populated and/or wilderness, then the total might be lower. But the general consensus seems to be that Alphatia is a civilized region, well settled, with low numbers of "wild" monsters that would make some areas unlikely to be inhabited by Alphatians proper. Given these things, this estimate (which comes to almost exactly 12.5 persons per square mile for Alphatia as a whole, or aproximately that of Darokin, which *is* noted as having borderlands regions, monster-infested ones, and the like) should be generally acceptable in my humble opinion. But some may none the less find fault with it, so if they have better ideas, please let me know - help in a final solution to this delema is welcomed. Otherwise we can put this aspect of the population to rest, having resolved it, and move on to Bellissaria next. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:04:20 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project In-Reply-To: <200002150038.TAA13727@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > Question is if anyone else actually listens to what others are saying, > because various explanations have been offered as to why Alphatia's > population might be what it is stated as being, but those have been ignored > and/or dismissed out of hand by most of those who feel the population > should be increased - you're a case in point. > Let me perhaps refine my statement. You keep making broad statements to the effect that everyone who thinks Alphatia's population is too low wants Alphatia to be an ubermonster which will destroy all its neighbors. This is not the case, but it does give me the impression that you're throwing everyone who thinks that in one bag, regardless of what they're actually saying. Which is what I meant. Yes, there are people who think Alphatia should rule all of space and time or whatever and thus needs more people for that reason, but it's not the only reason to be disatisfied with the population figures, and adjusted pop. figures don't innately lead to Alphatia uber alles. If you can point to a place where I've said you were saying something you didn't say, and which in fact contradicts things you did say, I'll happily withdraw my aggravated comment. > But a large segment of others do. Why should you have your concerns > adressed in the Re-Design and their concerns not be? There's no reason why > the population should be magnified but other things left alone - at least > as many people support such changes as support a magnified population. > Because I'm not calling for a single re-design, since it can't possibly satisfy everyone? Given that the main viewpoints include: A. Alphatia needs more people so it can kick butt and stomp everyone. Alphatia uber alles! B. Alphatia needs more people because it's implausible that a 2000 year old nation which hasn't suffered a single invasion of its homeland would have such a low population density. Given that the Alphatians are, by the words of the Player's Guide to Alphatia in DOTE, 'indifferent to expansion', this won't necessarily alter the geopolitical situation. C. Alphatia has enough people already and adding more would simply result in Alphatia gaining too much geopolitical power unless everyone is redesigned. 1. Alphatia should be viewed as a declining nation full of dwindling villages and ghost cities 2. We should fix the gaps in the history to give reasons why Alphatia has such a low population level but isn't necessarily in decline. D. You people should all stop talking about Alphatia because I'm sick of it and don't care. Ultimately, it comes down to whether one views the Alphatians as being capable and desirous of turning population into power to be used for expansion and bullying other nations. I don't think they are, although some individual Alphatians are interested in expansion, just as some Thyatians may be pacifists and uninterested in warfare, unlike the dominant elements of Thyatian society. I honestly think the canonical material tends to support that view of Alphatia. Obviously, you don't, as you've stated they are militaristic and imperialistic, and only the fact that Thyatis is close to them in numbers enables Thyatis to hold them off. My own impression of the canonical material is that it's more a matter of one efficient person being worth a lot of lazy people who would rather stay home and find a way to turn gnomes into gnolls without using Polymorph Other. But since the canonical material does not come out and explicitly state many things, we remain in an impasse. And until I have a more concrete writeup to offer, I will leave it at that. I know I have become a bit snappy at times during this discussion, and I apologize, as arguments about an imaginary world simply aren't worth being rude about. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:04:17 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Re: Site Update, added Arakival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked at this Arakival, and MAN, what this elf would give to have a want of melting or something like that, because these things are NOT something i would want to encounter whatsoever, no matter what level i was Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:07:38 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Meltheim Shadowstalker Subject: Map designs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit are there any programs out there that would work on the Mac that could be useful for designing campaign maps? I'm currently using the Core Rules Campaign Mapper and the Civilization 2 Map Maker, and I'm thinking of using the Myth 2: Soulblighter Map Maker, but that's only good for 3d rendering. Any suggestions? I might try to use The Sims to create a model or two, as it does allow not only total vertical and horizontal control on a 3d plane, but full landscaping abilities as well. Meltheim the Shadowstalker Infiltrator to the Immortals Devotee of Fate Eyes of the Starwatcher ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:07:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Site Update, added Arakival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heh... aye, they are rather nasty. I'll have to pace the adventure carefully so the players don't get overwhelmed. But thank you for commenting! I appreciate it very much. IronWolf Meltheim Shadowstalker wrote: > > I looked at this Arakival, and MAN, what this elf would give to have a want > of melting or something like that, because these things are NOT something i > would want to encounter whatsoever, no matter what level i was > > Meltheim the Shadowstalker > Infiltrator to the Immortals > Devotee of Fate > Eyes of the Starwatcher > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:16:50 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If we dump 10 million people into Alphatia and incress the military > strength they problably would not attack anyone. > Sez who? > until their imperial > doctrine changes(remember who started the wrath war?), > What is their Imperial doctrine? Their "Imperial Doctrine" is like every other Imperial Doctrine - spread everywhere one can, until and unless stopped. That's what they're doing in Norwold, right? this change doesn't > have to be immortale induced. Zandor was King for a day and he seemed very > agressive with the military. > Correct. See, that is their Imperial Doctrine. Agressive. Zandor was just more enthusiastic (and insane) about it. > Furthermore, the Glanrians could not stop the > golden khan, that seemes like a scaled down war between Thyatis and > Alphatia. > Yes, Ethengar now rules Glantri. > now that Alphatia sunk, Thyatis is the super-power of the OW, and > imperialistic Thyatis quickly went on the offencive, their exuse-"to reclaim > lost lands duing the wrath war" > You used quotation marks. What are you quoting from. Source and page number, please. > I'm sorry but Thotia, Ekto, and the other > Dawn nations they "stole"were not theirs before the war. > "Stole" from whom? The person who stole 'em first? ("HEY! That's not fair! Alphatia stole those fair and square!) - Remember, Alphatians aren't even FROM Mystara. Every foot of Mystara that they occupy is "stolen". Well, really, all land is "stolen" - the land you're standing on right now IRL was "stolen" from someone, who most likely "stole" it from someone before them, etc etc ad infinatum. That's life. Deal with it like an adult. Also, one other note: some may whine that "Well, Thyatis broke the treaty that they signed with Eriadna, ending the war." Actually, Thyatis manifestly did not. Thincol was meticulous in following the letter (if not entirely the spirit) of that treaty - He did not attack Helskir, or invade Ochalea and the Pearl Islands. That is what Eriadna demanded of him. It isn't Thincol's, or Thyatis's, fault if the "Wise" Empress of Alphatia did not forsee what occured - she probably figured that having beaten Thyatis it would be no threat to Alphatian territories. Thus the WotI event describing the treaty makes *no* mention of any provisions that would prevent Thyatis from attacking any Alphatian territory. Eriadna probably assumed that her victorious troops were a better guarantee against future Thyatian attack than any treaty. She was wrong - her mistake. Furthermore, at least IRL, treaty's signed with defunct states are considered "dead letters" anyhow - void in international law. Thus, for example, arms control treaties between the US and the USSR are only still in force because the US and Russia signed supplimentary agreements, agreeing to still follow them. Without such agreements, these treaties would no longer be valid. By AC 1000, the "Alphatian Empire" is a dead state (witness by the fact that Zandor had to try and re-conquer areas to re-create one, and that a new state, analogous I suppose to the CIS - was ultimately formed, under the banner of the "New Alphatian Empire" - in AC 1013). Now, some may say "well, this is Mystara, not Earth, so international law regarding treaties might not be the same as Earth's" - fine and true. But there is no good reason to think they are different (and the PWAs you point to are very clear on the point of Thincol following the terms of the treaty in any case - see the events related to Helskir) - and folks often toss around Real World analogies, whether or not they are appropriate. In this case there is no reason to believe that things regarding treaties differ on Mystara from what they are on Earth. > Also we could not just dump 10 million people into Alphatia, they would > have to grow into the new population(to keep the game world consistant). > See, that's where you're deemed wrong. The proposal is that those people were always there to begin with - the proposal is to modify/alter/change DotE and create new, "revised" totals that people find more acceptable. It will then be retroactively accepted that they were always there, and the previous population figures will be slipped down the memory hole. > Alphatia's enemies would see this military build up and respond in > turn(their own military build up, sabotage, assinations ect.). This entire > rant is based after the wrath war, and some of it is from AC 1015. > Well, I believe the proposal is to change the populations related to the AC 1000 numbers. AC 1015 is somewhat irrelivant here - Alphatia has no real "enemies" in AC 1015 (except in the Pogoesque sense, I suppose, though again this is never emphasized), so there would be no response from anyone. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:22:40 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uhm.. no offense fellas, but I think tempers are starting to get short on this discussion. Why not move this to a private venue? IronWolf James Ruhland wrote: > > > > > If we dump 10 million people into Alphatia and incress the military > > strength they problably would not attack anyone. > > > Sez who? > > > until their imperial > > doctrine changes(remember who started the wrath war?), > > > What is their Imperial doctrine? Their "Imperial Doctrine" is like every > other Imperial Doctrine - spread everywhere one can, until and unless > stopped. > > That's what they're doing in Norwold, right? > > this change doesn't > > have to be immortale induced. Zandor was King for a day and he seemed > very > > agressive with the military. > > > Correct. See, that is their Imperial Doctrine. Agressive. Zandor was just > more enthusiastic (and insane) about it. > > > Furthermore, the Glanrians could not stop the > > golden khan, that seemes like a scaled down war between Thyatis and > > Alphatia. > > > Yes, Ethengar now rules Glantri. > > > now that Alphatia sunk, Thyatis is the super-power of the OW, and > > imperialistic Thyatis quickly went on the offencive, their exuse-"to > reclaim > > lost lands duing the wrath war" > > > You used quotation marks. What are you quoting from. Source and page > number, please. > > > I'm sorry but Thotia, Ekto, and the other > > Dawn nations they "stole"were not theirs before the war. > > > "Stole" from whom? The person who stole 'em first? ("HEY! That's not fair! > Alphatia stole those fair and square!) - Remember, Alphatians aren't even > FROM Mystara. Every foot of Mystara that they occupy is "stolen". Well, > really, all land is "stolen" - the land you're standing on right now IRL > was "stolen" from someone, who most likely "stole" it from someone before > them, etc etc ad infinatum. > > That's life. Deal with it like an adult. > > Also, one other note: some may whine that "Well, Thyatis broke the treaty > that they signed with Eriadna, ending the war." Actually, Thyatis > manifestly did not. Thincol was meticulous in following the letter (if not > entirely the spirit) of that treaty - He did not attack Helskir, or invade > Ochalea and the Pearl Islands. That is what Eriadna demanded of him. It > isn't Thincol's, or Thyatis's, fault if the "Wise" Empress of Alphatia did > not forsee what occured - she probably figured that having beaten Thyatis > it would be no threat to Alphatian territories. Thus the WotI event > describing the treaty makes *no* mention of any provisions that would > prevent Thyatis from attacking any Alphatian territory. Eriadna probably > assumed that her victorious troops were a better guarantee against future > Thyatian attack than any treaty. She was wrong - her mistake. > > Furthermore, at least IRL, treaty's signed with defunct states are > considered "dead letters" anyhow - void in international law. Thus, for > example, arms control treaties between the US and the USSR are only still > in force because the US and Russia signed supplimentary agreements, > agreeing to still follow them. Without such agreements, these treaties > would no longer be valid. By AC 1000, the "Alphatian Empire" is a dead > state (witness by the fact that Zandor had to try and re-conquer areas to > re-create one, and that a new state, analogous I suppose to the CIS - was > ultimately formed, under the banner of the "New Alphatian Empire" - in AC > 1013). > > Now, some may say "well, this is Mystara, not Earth, so international law > regarding treaties might not be the same as Earth's" - fine and true. But > there is no good reason to think they are different (and the PWAs you point > to are very clear on the point of Thincol following the terms of the treaty > in any case - see the events related to Helskir) - and folks often toss > around Real World analogies, whether or not they are appropriate. In this > case there is no reason to believe that things regarding treaties differ on > Mystara from what they are on Earth. > > > Also we could not just dump 10 million people into Alphatia, they would > > have to grow into the new population(to keep the game world consistant). > > > See, that's where you're deemed wrong. The proposal is that those people > were always there to begin with - the proposal is to modify/alter/change > DotE and create new, "revised" totals that people find more acceptable. It > will then be retroactively accepted that they were always there, and the > previous population figures will be slipped down the memory hole. > > > Alphatia's enemies would see this military build up and respond in > > turn(their own military build up, sabotage, assinations ect.). This > entire > > rant is based after the wrath war, and some of it is from AC 1015. > > > Well, I believe the proposal is to change the populations related to the AC > 1000 numbers. AC 1015 is somewhat irrelivant here - Alphatia has no real > "enemies" in AC 1015 (except in the Pogoesque sense, I suppose, though > again this is never emphasized), so there would be no response from anyone. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:04:47 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Let me perhaps refine my statement. You keep making broad statements to > the effect that everyone who thinks Alphatia's population is too low wants > Alphatia to be an ubermonster which will destroy all its neighbors. > Actually, no - again, please re-read the posts I made. I have refered to a "general consensus" (think me wrong? Just look at the volume of posts) - but when I made my post proposing an Alphatia Re-Design Project, I made mention of what this person wants, that person wants, etc - I was, I thought, fairly clear in differentiating. Of course the total consiquences of giving all these various people the changes they'd like might be something you and I would both agree wouldn't be benificial overall. But, like I said, there is really no reason why one person's desired changes should be prefered over another person's desired changes. > > This > is not the case, but it does give me the impression that you're throwing > everyone who thinks that in one bag, regardless of what they're actually > saying. Which is what I meant. > Ok. Well, I guess I can see your point. There have been several occassions when I've been sloppy in that respect. But I do hope you can see the point I'm making, above. These folks, yourself included, *are* "in one bag" in at least one respect - they all are unhappy with, or disasociative of, one or more aspects of the Alphatia that was depicted in DotE, and want to see it changed/modified/"fixed"/altered/whatever. Again, there is no rational way of deciding who's changes Ought to be prefered over someone else's - except I suppose for aesthetic considerations (liking the proposal of someone but disliking someone else's) - which isn't a good enough reason, really, to arbitrarily say that these sorts of changes are ok but these others are not ok. People, of course, *CAN* make whatever changes they want in their own campaigns. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I've changed lots about Thyatis in mine (affecting atmospher, but also in the last major campaign I played, territorial extent as well). But I don't *insist* upon my version when in discussions with others. I post it and offer it as a (clearly marked) "ALTERNATIVE" Thyatis. These "Holy Wars" for the Soul of Alphatia which keep erupting are another matter - attempts to prove that this or that view of Alphatia should be prefered over this or that other view, that this or that change (though it is only rarely explicitly refered to as a "change" - most tend to try and imply that no change whatsoever is involved) Should Be Adopted And Accepted - not as a variant, or "my campaign's Alphatia which I'm sharing with those who might be interested, but other views are possible." People post "THE" Alphatian History of this or that era. Not "AN" Alphatian History - and argue that their version is the One True Version (heatedly on past occassions. Luckily so far discussions have been comparitively mild and polite). I admit I too have the Feavered Eye of a Prolythstizing Missionary in some (if not many) cases - though I do try to base everything I can as closely as possible, sourced and refferenced, upon the "shared assumptions" that we know as "canon" - and when/where I go "heritic" I freely admit that is what I'm doing. Which is why I'm so insistant that we not view these things as a "Correction" of "inaccurate" descriptions - but be honest and view them as what they truely are - a change. A Re-Design. Is a "Re-Design" of Alphatia warranted? There is only one grounds for deciding if it is or not: the expressed prefferences of people who claim to enjoy Mystara. Based upon empirical evidence, to whit the volume and energy behind that volume - of threads related to Alphatia, which contain things that a sober analysis would, IMO, indicate numerous expressed "deviations" from the described materiels, that it is warranted. The fans want it. "We can rebuild him. Stronger. Faster. Better." - Oscar. > > If you can point to a place where I've said you were saying something you > didn't say, and which in fact contradicts things you did say, I'll happily > withdraw my aggravated comment. > Well, I think I've been misinterpreted. But, like I said above - it's only because on several occassions I myself have been sloppy. So to that degree I owe you an appology, not you me one. > > Because I'm not calling for a single re-design, since it can't possibly > satisfy everyone? Given that the main viewpoints include: > Well, as I said in my post re. "Alphatia Re-Design Project: Population" - such a project will probably proceed by topical "modules" rather than a complete re-design. You can ignore the parts you don't like, IMO. Use the parts you do like for whatever reason suits your fancy. Take population - some want it increased to display how dominantly powerful it is, while others want it increased simply because the low density irritates their sense of cosmic order - it just aint right. And other ranges of reasons likely exist as well. But each person can use the new population figures for whatever suits their purpose - the figures will be the same, though the interpretation of what they mean might vary wildly. > > B. Alphatia needs more people because it's implausible that a 2000 year > old nation which hasn't suffered a single invasion of its homeland would > have such a low population density. > Melnebone didn't suffer a single successful invasion of it's home (until that very end, when Imryrr was destroyed), but none the less its population and strength disipated away, for IMO much the same reasons that Alphatia's might not have grown, and indeed may disipate. But that's just my opinion (which is, in essence, Opinion C.1-2 - since IMO gaps in the history should be filled in. IMO, even if one goes with any of the alternate versions, gaps in the history should be filled in for the reasons I explained in an earlier post. It's at *least* as hard to believe that Mystara's history consists solely of those events noted in the official Timeline as it is to believe that the population is too low - and IMO harder to believe, because we *can* come up with reasons - if fantastic ones (this *is* a fantastic world) that explains the population as it is. However, even the PWAs we have show how much can happen in a given year, and most of Mystara's history - to say nothing of Alphatia's or Thyatis' or any other given specific nation - is positively uneventful by comparison. To make another point, Caroletti and I undertook a project of "fleshing out" the History of Thyatis, and produced what I would consider a large volume of stuff, new & old. But I don't think we've done more than just scratch the surface. You'll see what I mean when the Tome comes out in April 8-). You're a historian - you know just how much happens over a century, much less a milenium. Do you believe, any more than you believe the plausibility of the population levels, that the Historical Timeline in DotE or in the HWDMSB is exaustive, covering every major event? > > D. You people should all stop talking about Alphatia because I'm sick of > it and don't care. > Though I've been an enthusiastic participant in these exchanges, I myself am begining to feel some of this wearyness with them, too - to the degree that they tend to go nowhere, but keep comming back like Michael Myers out of Crystal Lake. > > expansion and bullying other nations. I don't think they are, although > some individual Alphatians are interested in expansion, just as some > Thyatians may be pacifists and uninterested in warfare, unlike the > dominant elements of Thyatian society. I honestly think the canonical > material tends to support that view of Alphatia. > Well, let me do make this clear: I tend to agree with that to some large extent, but I also think the point often gets pushed *way* too far - Alphatians being "isolationistic" is one (NACE might be, after what Alphatia suffered, who wouldn't be a bit withdrawn?) - Alphatia isn't isolationistic. They aren't as efficient in maintaining their Empire as Thyatis is. Remember that parts of DotE are more "accurate" than others - the words spoken by Tylion/"Terari" are one such case: IMO, those represent his point of view. That *does* show that this view is representative of at least some portion of Alphatian society. But remember also that Tylion/"Terari" suffered a bitter defeat when seemingly on the brink of a great triumph, and then was deposed for his failure (and for the fact that he was widely disliked anyhow, because he was such a jerk at the time) - that would give him a certain view. Is there truth to it? Of course there is. Just like there's truth to the view that the Alphatians are such a mess because half their guys are doped up on Zzonga at any given moment - but that, too, can be pushed too far (and at times I have, if only to counter some of the other views that are pushed). They are indeed inefficient, IMO - because the Imperial Authorities cannot compell and conscript their nobles into public/Imperial service on behalf of the Empire, but must cajole. And also because, IMO, most Alphatians (the subject & slave classes) are not. . .not as enthusiastically patriotic as one might hope - which is (also in DotE) contrasted with a Thyatis where people are (relatively) more loyal and patriotic (of course the slaves aren't likely to be all that patriotic in either Empire - but at least with respect to the Thyatian ones they have some hope. Witness that one of them even became Emperor. This also, IMO, would tend to indicate that Thyatis' slave population probably manages something closer to "replacement level" population growth - though probably still not reaching it - while Alphatia's comparatively worse-treated slaves are less likely to be reproducing as much. And also the mages aren't reproducing at replacement levels - witness the decline in the proportion of Alphatian society that is spellcasters, from 100% on Old Alphatia, to 50% at Landfall because of the difference in Mystara's magic, to 20% in AY 2000.) > Obviously, you don't, as you've stated they are militaristic and > imperialistic, and only the fact that Thyatis is close to them in numbers > enables Thyatis to hold them off. My own impression of the canonical > material is that it's more a matter of one efficient person being worth a > lot of lazy people who would rather stay home and find a way to turn > gnomes into gnolls without using Polymorph Other. > Well, yes, there is that. But folks also point to the assets, other than population, which Alphatia has that Thyatis does not - a larger number of mega-mages (1,000+ vs 250+), which in theory could do grave damage (though recieving grave damage in return), skyships of disputable utility and number, and the like. Thyatis similarly has assets (a much better developed Clerical arm to counter Alphatia's Mages, the Retebius Air Fleet). I would argue, as you would (though perhaps on slightly different premises), that overall Alphatia and Thyatis are balanced in power - but others disent, and even without a vast increase in Alphatia's population they believe that Alphatia could have destroyed Thyatis at any time, but simply chose not to (how the Thyatian revolt even succeeded, much less things like the Ylari revolt against both*, would then be beyond knowing, IMO). *IMO the success of the Ylari revolt can largely be attributed to the fact that the Thyatians and Alphatians were mostly interested in opposing each other, and neither diverted the strength nessissary to defeat al-Kalim because of this. Not to diminish his accomplishment against strong odds. But also noteworthy is the fact that it took much more effort for him to beat back Thyatis than it took to humble Alphatia - and if Alphatia's Skyship assets were as strong as some insist they should be, distance wouldn't have been a factor in preventing the Alphatians from holding their colonies in Alaysia - remember, Men of War can Teleport several times a day. Though in OD&D, as in AD&D, Teleportation only functions from one surface to another (no Teleporting to midair), this wouldn't have been that much of a drawback because they could have Teleported to known surface areas, pre-planned, and then if nessissary imediately taken to flight upon arrival. Advance Scrying could have insured that no nearby threat existed to oppose or endanger this. Anyhow, as I was saying - none the less Thyatis was more successful, not for lack of trying on Alphatia's part to keep it's colonies in Alaysia (otherwise there wouldn't have been so much warfare there over the preceeding three centuries) - and Thyatis even managed to retain the most important part of its Alaysian holdings - Tel Akbir. > > But since the canonical material does not come out and explicitly state > many things, we remain in an impasse. > Yep. That's the frustrating thing about all these discussions, IMO. That's one reason why things are never really resolved. IMO that leads in part to the following: > And until I have a more concrete writeup to offer, I will leave it at > that. I know I have become a bit snappy at times during this discussion, > and I apologize, as arguments about an imaginary world simply aren't worth > being rude about. > No problem, appology accepted. I offer mine again - testiness and snappishness eminated from me as well (though at times things were meant as humor, or came off wrong, but still. . .I don't claim innocence). Remember what I said at one point about Alphatia being an Apple of Discord. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:06:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Uhm.. no offense fellas, but I think tempers are starting to get short on this > discussion. Why not move this to a private venue? > Actually, my temper wasn't short this time. I was just countering a few things. But I will take your advice - not to move it to private mail, but there likely isn't any need to reply in that thread/set of threads any longer. 8-) Sorry about the volume of mails. *_+ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:15:03 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > Actually, my temper wasn't short this time. I was just countering a few > things. > But I will take your advice - not to move it to private mail, but there > likely isn't any need to reply in that thread/set of threads any longer. > 8-) > Sorry about the volume of mails. *_+ Well, I'm not trying to be a nosy fellow, I just would rather not see the List Ogre come stomping in again. As he noted, he has been far too busy of late. There wasn't anything bad yet, but it was clear there was something in the conversations that probably wasn't going to resolve itself, given the volume of responses. My own take on the issue is that Alphatia is whatever you want it to be in your own campaign. I've never really concerned myself with Alphatia's population and size, they've never been all that important to me. It's always been obnoxious, I'm not too sorry it's now in Hollow World. (Maybe it will jazz the place up a bit, HW was really a dry setting. Pellucidar, the original source of the hollow world idea, was far more interesting.) It's not as obnoxious as the Netheril empire of Faerun, though... IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:21:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: NPC's?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was wondering if anyone on the list would allow me to use them as an NPC in > my campaign? > Probably - people can correct me if I'm wrong - folks who post their characters, NPC or otherwise, do so because they are (in effect) making them available for people (such as yourself) to use in their campaign. I've only managed to post a couple characters, but you can use them. Also, in this case I don't think copywrite is involved - I can't claim to know copywrite law, but stuff posted on the web in public forums are by definition available for people's personal use (whether you can bundle them into something and try to publish it and sell it is another question). Anything you find on the web you can use in your own campaign, home, whatever (this is one reason why companies tend to not make things they plan on selling available for free on the web - TSR puts up the occassional odd out of print accessory or suppliment, but not the stuff that they publish every month). Long and short of it is you can use whatever is on a public webpage in your own campaign without any legal problems. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:27:56 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Hollow World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm not too sorry it's now in Hollow World. (Maybe it will jazz the place up a > bit, HW was really a dry setting. Pellucidar, the original source of the hollow > world idea, was far more interesting.) > Well, to change the subject (thank the Immortals), IMO the Hollow World is somewhat more interesting than some areas on the surface. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason it might seem dry is that SoP and all - but for the most part, gameworld societies & technical capabilities don't usually change much during the course of a campaign anyhow (unless the characters hang around for a long time, several centuries). I'm unfortunately not familiar with Pellucidar - is that a book or something? You piqued my curiousity 8-). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:33:23 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: Hollow World-Pellucidar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I'm unfortunately not familiar with Pellucidar - is that a book or > something? You piqued my curiousity 8-). A book? Book(s) ERBurroughs (of Tarzan fame) consisting of several books,not to mention a few hokey movies. KS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:43:38 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: military matters In-Reply-To: <200002150219.VAA05064@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > until their imperial > > doctrine changes(remember who started the wrath war?), > > > What is their Imperial doctrine? Their "Imperial Doctrine" is like every > other Imperial Doctrine - spread everywhere one can, until and unless > stopped. > > That's what they're doing in Norwold, right? > To quote DotE Alphatian Player's Guide: "She was successful in coverting thousands ot her belief, and every city and kingdom in the Empire shows signs of this great Alphatian preoccupation with making toys and monuments and buildings of brilliant design and beauty--and in the continued Alphatian indifference to military matters and questions of imperial expansion." (P7) Doesn't sound like an empire driven to expand at all costs. And King Ericall can't even get the halflings to take him seriously in Norwold. If the Alphatians took it seriously as a dominion, it wouldn't have been fobbed off on two of Eriadna's non-aristocrat, not particularly competent children. > > > > Alphatia's enemies would see this military build up and respond in > > turn(their own military build up, sabotage, assinations ect.). This > entire > > rant is based after the wrath war, and some of it is from AC 1015. > > > Well, I believe the proposal is to change the populations related to the AC > 1000 numbers. AC 1015 is somewhat irrelivant here - Alphatia has no real > "enemies" in AC 1015 (except in the Pogoesque sense, I suppose, though > again this is never emphasized), so there would be no response from anyone. > Hollow World Alphatia doesn't bother me because the Immortals generally never manage to save everyone...you can adjust the population to fit, with a perfectly acceptable excuse. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:45:31 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Hollow World-Pellucidar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Earth Core series was written by Edgar Rice Burroughs, probably the most famous pulp writer from the early 20th century. He also wrote the Martian Chronicles and the Tarzan series. The 16th Tarzan book was a crossover novel "Tarzan at the Earth's Core". Pellucidar was the name given to the inner world in the series. It consisted of much lost world style territory with savage tribes of men and hominids, as well as more advanced nations including vikings and 14th century pirates. (Pellucidar could occasionally be reached by ship, I believe.) Like Hollow World, Pellucidar was marked by a single sun at the center of the sphere, without floating continents. The principle storyline focused on two Englishmen David Innes and Abner Perry, who developed a drilling machine which they inadvertently pointed downward by accident while searching for anthrancite coal. They almost died of oxygen deprivation, but instead they burrowed all the way through to Pellucidar. Pellucidar is also difficult to navigate in because of a lack of magnetic poles to guide compasses, and the inner curving landscape makes it difficult to follow landmarks. Hollow World was definitely modeled after Pellucidar, and in it's lost world elements it certainly succeeds. However, the spell of preservation coupled with the 'static' races and people doesn't tend to work as far as gaming goes. (Most gamers I know would say "Why play if you can't change a thing?") Possibly the best adventure idea you can do with Hollow World is the "outside world adventurers find the inner world", which in the last canon Almanac (Joshuan's) they were clearly going back towards, establishing Hollow World as a myth rather than a reality. (Which is probably exactly how the Immortals want it.) IronWolf "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:50:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Hollow World-Pellucidar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > A book? Book(s) > ERBurroughs (of Tarzan fame) consisting of several books,not to mention a few hokey movies. > KS > Ahh, ok. Haven't seen those movies. Did used to watch those old Johnny Weismuller Tarzan movies, but evidently not the same thing. Thanks for the answer, though. I might have to check thouse out some time. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:56:26 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't believe the list admin will criticize anyone for an on topic discussion, no matter how boring it might be to some readers and not others. Personally, I'm surprised you've taken the stand about specifics being a detriment to the campaign, given the project we worked on together for a totally unrelated setting. While I agree that individual DMs should be careful about the detail they put in, lest they bore the players with countless figures and whatnot...and while I agree that most figures are given for the impression of a thing, rather than a specific thing itself (ie, A number is given which a writer considers a large population, regardless of whether it is realistically large or not. Also, 1000 mages on council is not a thing which is to be studied under a microscope, it bothers some people, but I daresay most players will hardly notice the impossibility.), yet I would say if people are enjoying a conersation about the likelihood of growing pansies in Norwold during the winter, then let them have at it. I don't care how heated it gets, as long as a reasonable propriety is maintained, which to my eye is the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: IronWolf To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] military matters > James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Actually, my temper wasn't short this time. I was just countering a few > > things. > > > But I will take your advice - not to move it to private mail, but there > > likely isn't any need to reply in that thread/set of threads any longer. > > 8-) > > > Sorry about the volume of mails. *_+ > > Well, I'm not trying to be a nosy fellow, I just would rather not see the List > Ogre come stomping in again. As he noted, he has been far too busy of late. > There wasn't anything bad yet, but it was clear there was something in the > conversations that probably wasn't going to resolve itself, given the volume of > responses. > > My own take on the issue is that Alphatia is whatever you want it to be in your > own campaign. I've never really concerned myself with Alphatia's population and > size, they've never been all that important to me. It's always been obnoxious, > I'm not too sorry it's now in Hollow World. (Maybe it will jazz the place up a > bit, HW was really a dry setting. Pellucidar, the original source of the hollow > world idea, was far more interesting.) > > It's not as obnoxious as the Netheril empire of Faerun, though... > > IronWolf > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:03:50 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Neal Subject: I need help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill if you send your address to neal1@tecinfo.com i will send you a copy of the war machine rules. neal ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:06:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Neal Subject: web rpg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to also ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:07:03 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "She was successful in coverting thousands ot her belief, and every city > and kingdom in the Empire shows signs of this great Alphatian > preoccupation with making toys and monuments and buildings of brilliant > design and beauty--and in the continued Alphatian indifference to military > matters and questions of imperial expansion." (P7) > > Doesn't sound like an empire driven to expand at all costs. And King > Ericall can't even get the halflings to take him seriously in Norwold. If > the Alphatians took it seriously as a dominion, it wouldn't have been > fobbed off on two of Eriadna's non-aristocrat, not particularly competent > children. > That, however, is different from the "Imperial Doctrine" - the "Imperial Doctrine" is definately aimed at expansion. The fact that Myrtendal's (recent) philosophies undermine such a doctrine does not obviate it. The difference isn't merely semantic - it in fact is one of the tensions you yourself have emphasized elsewhere: an Empire, led by an Emperor or Empress, holding a certain "Imperial Doctrine" - an Imperial Imperative. This is supported by some aspects of Alphatian society/culture (the view that others are mere barbarians who's main reason for existing is to provide cheap slave labor for their Alphatian betters), but undermined by other aspects of Alphatian society (the indifference of many of its people, under the influence of Myrtendal and/or others, to military matters and expantion, their indifference to maintaining their society at all - being instead more pre-occupied with personal whims and the like - etc). The latter does not mean that their is no "Imperial Doctrine" or drive to expand (Eriadna's "doctrine" includes laying new claim to an area larger than the entire Thyatian Empire. But the things internal to Alphatia which undermine that Doctrine means that this "claim" and "expansion" is weake in reality.) It isn't as if Eriadna didn't *want* Norwold (she had it invaded several years before appointing Ericall to govern it, IIRC) - and as a fringe area her attitude towards it is certainly that it's a second-rate region suitable to be governed by her non-spellcasting son. But if there was an attitude "indifferent" to large scale expansion, the project would never have been initiated in 985 at all, nor to stake out such an extensive and comprehensive claim (the claim indicates Imperial desire. The reality indicates the strength, or lack theirof, of making this desire tangible and successful). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:27:53 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatia Re-Design Project In-Reply-To: <200002150307.WAA22117@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > Is a "Re-Design" of Alphatia warranted? There is only one grounds for > deciding if it is or not: the expressed prefferences of people who claim to > enjoy Mystara. Based upon empirical evidence, to whit the volume and energy > behind that volume - of threads related to Alphatia, which contain things > that a sober analysis would, IMO, indicate numerous expressed "deviations" > from the described materiels, that it is warranted. The fans want it. > I think everyone who wants to rebuild Alphatia has to do that for the purpose of their own campaign, depending on what they plan to build their adventures around. In a world where Alphatia is just out there and the PCs spend their time turning orcs into corpses in Karameikos, it's irrelevant. Since no redesign can have actual canonical authority, there's no point in you working on a redesign when you hate the very idea of it, which came though in your population post earlier. Leave it to people who actually want Alphatia to have a higher population. That way you can just ignore them if they babble about it. 'Tis no point in committing yourself to a project you don't enjoy, and which you think the basic idea of it is mistaken. > > If you can point to a place where I've said you were saying something you > > didn't say, and which in fact contradicts things you did say, I'll > happily > > withdraw my aggravated comment. > > > Well, I think I've been misinterpreted. But, like I said above - it's only > because on several occassions I myself have been sloppy. So to that degree > I owe you an appology, not you me one. > > Best we both agree to be polite. I am not perfect meself. > point, Caroletti and I undertook a project of "fleshing out" the History of > Thyatis, and produced what I would consider a large volume of stuff, new & > old. But I don't think we've done more than just scratch the surface. > You'll see what I mean when the Tome comes out in April 8-). Cool. > You're a historian - you know just how much happens over a century, much > less a milenium. Do you believe, any more than you believe the plausibility > of the population levels, that the Historical Timeline in DotE or in the > HWDMSB is exaustive, covering every major event? > > I'd like to hope the biggest events are covered, but of course lots of minor events are skimmed over. > respect to the Thyatian ones they have some hope. Witness that one of them > even became Emperor. This also, IMO, would tend to indicate that Thyatis' > slave population probably manages something closer to "replacement level" > population growth - though probably still not reaching it - while > Alphatia's comparatively worse-treated slaves are less likely to be > reproducing as much. And also the mages aren't reproducing at replacement > levels - witness the decline in the proportion of Alphatian society that is > spellcasters, from 100% on Old Alphatia, to 50% at Landfall because of the > difference in Mystara's magic, to 20% in AY 2000.) > Yep. Although some of that is supposedly dilution of the genetic potential to do magic instead of reproductive failure. I suppose an increasing percentage of the Alphatian slave population would become Jennite overtime, since Esterhold is the only place Alphatians could get fresh slaves (unless they enslave humanoids from Norwold, which I think the humanoids would make really lousy slaves). It could also lead to serious problems for the Hollow World Alphatians. > > Obviously, you don't, as you've stated they are militaristic and > > imperialistic, and only the fact that Thyatis is close to them in numbers > > enables Thyatis to hold them off. My own impression of the canonical > > material is that it's more a matter of one efficient person being worth a > > lot of lazy people who would rather stay home and find a way to turn > > gnomes into gnolls without using Polymorph Other. > > > Well, yes, there is that. But folks also point to the assets, other than > population, which Alphatia has that Thyatis does not - a larger number of > mega-mages (1,000+ vs 250+), which in theory could do grave damage (though > recieving grave damage in return), skyships of disputable utility and I tend to think that skyships would blow up too easily to be as much of an asset as some think. That and the fact that you could hire hundreds of thousands of mercenaries for the cost of one man-o-war. > number, and the like. Thyatis similarly has assets (a much better developed > Clerical arm to counter Alphatia's Mages, the Retebius Air Fleet). I would Yep. I'd suspect Thyatis probably has a 1 to 500 cleric to everyone else ratio, and Alphatia is probably more like 1 to 1000, and maybe worse. > even without a vast increase in Alphatia's population they believe that > Alphatia could have destroyed Thyatis at any time, but simply chose not to > (how the Thyatian revolt even succeeded, much less things like the Ylari > revolt against both*, would then be beyond knowing, IMO). > I take my cue from the fact that to get your own kingdom, you have to either marry into a major family, or go and conquer something and add it to the empire. The Ylari colonies were likely the result of some Council of Wizards member who wanted to be a King and went and seized it with his own resources, then got the Emperor of the time to recognize him. But because it was outside the areas of Alphatia that most Alphatians regard as important, he was largely left to his own devices. This also meant most of the movers and shakers of the empire weren't particularly interested in fighting to save an area they didn't regard as important, but rather as more of a leech clinging to the empire for protection. After all, imperial resources had been wasted pointlessly fighting for a lot of sand for hundreds of years, and what had it brought the empire? Nothing. Let the desert take care of itself. It had been a not so profitable bleeding sore on the empire for centuries; best to simply cut one's losses. > arrival. Advance Scrying could have insured that no nearby threat existed > to oppose or endanger this. Anyhow, as I was saying - none the less Thyatis > was more successful, not for lack of trying on Alphatia's part to keep it's > colonies in Alaysia (otherwise there wouldn't have been so much warfare > there over the preceeding three centuries) - and Thyatis even managed to > retain the most important part of its Alaysian holdings - Tel Akbir. > > It would be rather sad if Thyatis couldn't fight more efficiently to defend the area it is right next to than the Alphatians fighting long distance, yes :) John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:26:35 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly wrote: > > Personally, I'm surprised you've taken the stand about specifics being a > detriment to the campaign, given the project we worked on together for a > totally unrelated setting. While I agree that individual DMs should be > careful about the detail they put in, lest they bore the players with > countless figures and whatnot...and while I agree that most figures are > given for the impression of a thing, rather than a specific thing itself > (ie, A number is given which a writer considers a large population, > regardless of whether it is realistically large or not. Also, 1000 mages > on council is not a thing which is to be studied under a microscope, it > > bothers some people, but I daresay most players will hardly notice the > impossibility.), yet I would say if people are enjoying a conersation about > the likelihood of growing pansies in Norwold during the winter, then let > them have at it. I don't care how heated it gets, as long as a reasonable > propriety is maintained, which to my eye is the case. I wasn't objecting to the conversation, just that the argument/counter-argument was starting to get a bit heated, edging close on personal remarks. I didn't say specifics are a detriment. I like specifics. But I like them being a result of gameplay, of being needed because you want to enhance gameplay and please players. This is what gaming is about, having fun. Design work can be fun I'll agree, and if people want to redesign Alphatia, jim dandy, I won't stop them. BTW, on that previous project, the party we were trying to get the interest of is still not being helpful, and I'm starting to doubt they ever will be. IronWolf ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:04:08 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "She was successful in coverting thousands ot her belief, and every city > and kingdom in the Empire shows signs of this great Alphatian > preoccupation with making toys and monuments and buildings of brilliant > design and beauty--and in the continued Alphatian indifference to > military matters and questions of imperial expansion." (P7) > One other thing on that (please forgive me for having one more thing); the very next page says: "For Emperor Tylion IV, this was the last blow. During his reign, the Empire had lost all its Ylari colonies, had failed to take Braejr, had failed to keep Norwold clean of Thyatian settlers, and now had failed the most promising military enterprise in decades." Tylion IV wasn't deposed for engaging in war or expansion by a population grown indifferent to these things. He was deposed for failing. What does this mean? Does this mean one of these two quotes is accurate and one isn't? No. What it means is they each represent different aspects of a tension in Alphatian society. These statements imply contradictory things - on the one hand, a growing indifference to military matters and questions of imperial expansion, and on the other hand a rather strong interest - as expressed in the reaction against failure to keep posessions and to expand. Now, there are other reasons Tylion IV was deposed as well. But, again, these things aren't mutually exclusive - politics, beliefs, desires - they are all complex. How does one explain this? IMO it is explainable by the following (which, admittedly, is my interpretation - others may have their own): The Alphatians, or their nobility at any rate, do place significance on the empire, Imperial expansion, success and failure of enterprises, etc - in the abstract. But when it comes down to participating personally, well as Galatia put it "Well. . .I wouldn't go. Alphatia has lots of other wizards more suited to that sort of enterprise. And I have more pressing concerns." - in other words, each says to him or herself that someone else will handle the messy details. The mindset isn't "well, we shouldn't go to war anyhow, that empire stuff is a thing of the past, we have better things to do now" - well, that's probably the mindset among some (followers of the Immortal Alphatia - but note the description of her in WotI that she is "far from being a personification of the spirit of the Alphatian people" since she is not interested in conquest or intrigue - p15, CotI), but not the majority (truth be told, there probably isn't a "majority mindset" in individualistic Alphatia anyhow). It doesn't mean they oppose the concept, they're just too self-involved to put themselves on the line, and take action themselves. Or at least some of them (perhaps a large and growing proportion, among a gradually dwindling number of mages - thus, the Alphatian Empire in its second decline, as those responsible for its maintinance disipate themselves and withdraw into self-indulgence). They DO care, after a fashion - the failures of Tylion weren't greeted with bored yawns. They just don't care enough to put much effort into it themselves. Or at least among a growing segment of the population that's true. Thus the dichotomy between the demands of the Imperial Imperitive and how far they are able to "live up to their potential" in converting that Doctrine into success. Anyhow, I do hearby promise to try and steel my resolve and not reply on this topic, irregardless of whatever provocation might ensue. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:26:34 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Solaria? (was Alphatian Population Revision (was Bellissaria)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-14 12:30:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: << Solaria is from Isaac Asimov's Robot Novels. It's a planet settled by people who were pathologically loners. Each Solarian had a vast estate, miles across, and was served by a horde of robots. They never left their estates, and childbirth was strictly regulated to maintain a steady population level (Everyone got one child to act as their heir--many Solarians had to be forced to breed). >> Ah -- so the problem that would stop Asimov's Solaria from being a parallel to Alphatia is that members of Alphatia's "robot" class are in fact human and will breed normally unless some other factor intervenes. In fact, if the Alphatian nobility is being so seriously outbred by the mundaners, it would not only explain the declining proportion of spellcasters but would suggest that at some point in the future there will be a violent revolution by those mundaners when they realize that there are not enough arcaners left to keep them under control. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:26:48 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: copyright rules? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-14 8:30:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, georgeh@HEP.PHYSICS.WISC.EDU writes: << Nobody can copyright a NAME! That is not legal. That would be like saying that because someone used the name Bert in a story no one could ever use that name again. Check out the law, if you don't believe me. >> Of course, names can be TRADEMARKED, in which case there would be certain limits on how you could use the name. Also, while names cannot be copyrighted, larger works can be -- and using those names in a way that makes it obvious that you are referring to the same characters as in another work might make your work a "derivative work", for which special rules apply. Still, we are well past the bad old days when TR was striking out at fan sites left and right -- we have a much friendlier relationship with the current company, and I think we all want to keep it that way. They are pretty tolerant, but I would advise against doing any of the few things that might upset them -- such as (for example) publishing a pornographic tale about what Jaggar and Dolores do when they are alone together. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:26:51 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: military matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-14 10:43:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, ranma@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: << Doesn't sound like an empire driven to expand at all costs. And King Ericall can't even get the halflings to take him seriously in Norwold. If the Alphatians took it seriously as a dominion, it wouldn't have been fobbed off on two of Eriadna's non-aristocrat, not particularly competent children. >> Another nitpick: Only one of Eriadna's children (Ericall) is a ruler in Norwold. His half-brother Lernal the Swill is a son of Torenal but not of Eriadna. But this nitpick actually strengthens your argument. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:26:50 EST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: The Gemstone Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-02-14 12:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, anowack@JUNO.COM writes: << This is a little idea that's been bouncing around in the black hole some people like to call my brain for a while. The basic idea is to go through issues of Dragon Magazine and make notes on how various articles could be used in a Mystara campaign (this was partially inspired by my recent purchase of the dragon CD archive). and, of course, I decided to call this little project the Gemstone Dragon. >> There is no question that a lot of information not originally targeted for Mystara could be used on that world. For example, you could probably steal some ideas from the Neanderthal and Ice Age articles in early (pre-Princess Ark) issues of Dragon for the purpose of fleshing out the Hollow World Brute-Men. Furthermore, there is a great deal of non-Mystara AD&D material that can be adapted for Mystara. In my own campaign I used a lot of the material from Al-Qadim to detail Ylaruam, and I adapted the AD&D module "Destiny of Kings" to Glantri of all places (killing of poor Harald Haskinz in the process....). But my final assessment is this: If you have the time and energy for this project, then by all means go for it! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:37:32 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Hollow World-Pellucidar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The Earth Core series was written by Edgar Rice Burroughs, probably the most > famous pulp writer from the early 20th century. He also wrote the Martian > Chronicles and the Tarzan series. The 16th Tarzan book was a crossover novel > "Tarzan at the Earth's Core". > Ok. I *have* heard of Edgar Rice Burroughs. I'm not a total hermit 8-). I haven't read any of these, though. Thanks for the synopsis - it was very interesting. I'll have to try and pick up some of those books. > > Hollow World was definitely modeled after Pellucidar, and in it's lost world > elements it certainly succeeds. However, the spell of preservation coupled with > the 'static' races and people doesn't tend to work as far as gaming goes. (Most > gamers I know would say "Why play if you can't change a thing?") > Well, it's not as if you can't change anything - you can change stuff, or at least to the degree that adventurers should be able to. The SoP just means that places can't be totally wiped out or become unrecognizable culturally (change is possible, though - witness the Azcans, who were converted by Atzanteotl.) It's "change within defined parameters" - but how much do the KW nations change, really? I mean, in the lifetime of an adventurer. They might (strongly, perhaps) influence the fate of this or that nation - insofar as the success or failure of this or that endevour of its, influencing the waxing or waning of its power. But that sort of thing can occur in the Hollow World also. At least that's my own opinion. Anyhow, it's much, MUCH easier to "fix" this aspect of the Hollow World than it is to Re-Design an entire country (Alphatian, Thyatian, Karameikan, Milenian, pick any - I'm not picking on any one here) - just toss the Spell of Preservation right out. The potential explaination for limited change up till now by most HW countries can then be partially accounted for by the fact that each of them (well, with one notable but recent exception) had to, in effect, re-start from scratch from a single city or a few villages/tribes. Then let change of the sort "most gamers" would want occur as normal, simply obviating the SoP. I don't discuss it much on the list, if only because the topic doesn't come up as much, but all in all I think the Hollow World stuff is overall more successful, as far as the accessories go, than the stuff for much of the surface - the experience the writers had, and the way they were able to create the setting without relying too heavily on a sketch map from an early module, allowed things to be given breadth and scope. A lot of neat ideas got put in, too - Nithian magic, Milenian Icons (I've resisted the temptation to expropriate those), and the like. All that said, IMO the main reason why the surface seems more interresting, at least to me, is because there's a heck of a lot more materiel describing it, modules placed in and among it, etc. It makes it easier to campaign in and imagine. If they had managed to publish that much stuff for the HW, it might easily be as engrosing a topic of discussion & adventure locale as the KW is. I personally have found the SoP to be a bit more of a relief than a burden - used in moderation, appropriately - you don't have to worry about players deciding their character can invent things that are inappropriate. The SoP doesn't prevent spell research, but does limit the spread of new ideas and thus keeps such research more personalized (Rob would love this aspect; he tends to limit spread of magic on the surface as well, as he described in the spell discussion) - this makes each nation's magic unique while providing a much better rationale for why their neighbors don't steal the best stuff for themselves (also, the magic used isn't so overwhelmingly dominant that such espionage would be needed for the sake of simple survival). This, IMO, makes it more likely that characters will just relax and adventure. There's a whole chapter on Empire Building in the HW. And the restrictions seem more commonsensical than magical, though it's described in the terms of the latter. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:57:44 +1100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: wuoldn't it be nice? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 17:44 14/02/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/14/00 7:14:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >kinglosser@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > ><< Wouldn't it be nice to have a nation located on the Thotian Plateu? >> > >Hmmm... somewhere out there I once posted information on the Stone Folk, a >race of beings that lived in (as in above ground and below) the rocky desert >regions of the Great Escarpment. I think it *might* be on Shawn's site... >Never did post a PWA style entry for the current kingdom though... everything is on my site, well of course not quite everything - but you get the point. try http://dnd.starflung.com/stonfolk.html shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:31:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear the ideas of others too, and I must say that they're influencing my thinking. > At the end of the discussion, not sure why you asked this question - you > seemed to have very definate ideas about what you felt the Alphatian > skynavy's size and strength should be. If that's true, then what was the > point of this excersise? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:35:50 -0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Site Update: New Campaign Log MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted my 2/11/2k campaign log. This will be the last one for at least a week, as I'll be attending RadCon next weekend, and we may go for a bit of change, it's good to pace yourself when it comes to gaming. Burning out is the pits. Enjoy! IronWolf http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ "It's Specularum, damn it!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:44:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Re: Alphatian Skynavy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is not a "quote". DotE does not "insist" that the Imperial Alphatian > Military is good QUALITY. I turned to the page, and it says nothing about > that. The Word "quality" is not mentioned on either page - in refference to > the military, or any other factor. > > What you said doesn't even qualify as a paraphrase of DotE, much less an > "insistance" by DotE to the effect that Alphatia's military is of good > quality. The closest it comes is to say that the noble classes (the mages) > are disinterested in the military (so much for them spending time > enchanting warships), and as a result the non-magic users are allowed to > arm their troops with real weapons instead of being marched off with > bagpipes and daggers (what does this imply about Alphatia's mages > competence as military leaders? What was it that Norman Schwartzkopf said > about Saddam Hussein as a great military leader?). The closest DotE comes > to any mention anywhere of the strength of Alphatia's military is to say it > is "adiquate". If my proffessor were to say that my paper was "adiquate" I > would hardly view this as a ringing endoursement of it's quality. Darokin's > military could be described as "adiquate". Alfheim's might be described as > "excellent". The section says that the Alphatians have a very practical sense about military matters, they let the miliotary commanders do whatever is necessary, not requiring them to carry out useless tasks. The army is "adequate" for Alphatia, well you can interpret this in nearly every sense, but adequate is apparently sufficient to defeat the Thyatians inWotI. Adequate should, in my view, be seen regarding the size of the Alphatian military which is tiny in proportion to their population, especially if the population is increased (the military forces will NOT be increased), yet sufficient to fulfill it's task. Apparently in two millenia no-one has ever come even close to defeating the Alphatian military and invading the mainland, yet they've occupied Thyatis for a long time and nearly defeated them once (Spike assault) and succeeded a second time (WotI). So I don't see why people insist the Alphatian military should be made up of whimps, the Alphatian wizards aren't interested in foreign wars, but that doesn't mean they want foreigners rampaging across their continent upsetting their experiments. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:50:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Michael III Mysteria Organization: Prince-Regent of Mysteria Subject: Alphatia Re-Design Project: Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is what I came up with: Alphatian Population Revised Reasoning Alphatian citizens pay taxes based on the value of their slaves, Kingdoms however contribute to the Imperial Treasury based on their number of citizens, for whom the empire is to provide services. Each kingdom establishes whom they consider citizens (considering no-one a citizen would result in no services being provided either) Wizards make up 20% of total population Slaves make up 50% of total population Assumptions: Spellcasters would amount to 25% of population, so 5% clerics, rangers, druids etc, is likely considering Alphatian disinterest in religion. Population count on restricted areas such as the undersea city of Aquas and the Floating Islands would be acurate, so only the type of citizen need be considered. In nations allowing this, something like 15% of the population might have the talent to have themselves registered as an artist (providing they are able to pay registration fees yearly, have a least one exhibiton/performance per year etc.) Dense Metropolitan population makes accurate population count difficult, up to 50% may be added. The following nations are considered to have Dense Metropolitan Areas (according to map of same name): Haven, Arogansa, Theranderol, Bettellyn, Southern Foresthome, Frisland (50%) Horken, Lagrius, Meriander (25%) Alphatian Sea Ambur Registered Population: 200,000 Citizens: spellcasters, registered artists Multiplication Factor: 2.5 Full Population: 500,000 Aquas Registered Population: 60,000 Citizens: Wizards only (Make up large part of pop. due to unusual living conditions) Multiplication Factor: 3 Full Population: 180,000 Arogansa Registered Population: 150,000 Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: 5 (Wizards Only), Add 50% metropolitan Full Population: 1,375,000 Note: Though slave to citizen proportion is higher, many free commoners move away because of magocratic oppression. Bettellyn Registered Population: 350,000 Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: 5 (Wizards Only), add 50% metropolitan Full Population: 2,625,000 Note: PWA I tells us that this is the most densily populated area in Alphatia (With excepetion of Vertiloch and Stonewall, see those nations ED) Blackheart Registered Population: 50,000 Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: 3 (Wizards Only, but no commoners only slaves) Full Population: 150,000 Eadrin Registered Population: 100,000 Citizens: Spellcasters only Multiplication Factor: 4 (Wizards Only) Full Population: 400,000 Floating Ar Registered Population: 150,000 (50,000 on Upper Ar) Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: 5 (Wizards Only, only for Lower Ar) Full Population: 550,000 Foresthome Registered Population: 100,000 Citizens: Wizards Multiplication Factor: 5 add 50% metropolitan Full Population: 750,000 Frisland Registered Population: 100,000 Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: 5 (Wizards Only) Add 5-% Full Population: 750,000 Greenspur Registered Population: 600,000 Citizens: All non-slaves Multiplication Factor: 2 Full Population: 1,200,000 Haven Registered Population: 1,200,000 Citizens: Spellcasters and Registered Artists Multiplication Factor: 2.5 (Wizards and Artists) add 50% metropolitan Full Population: 4,500,000 Imperial Territories Registered Population: Citizens: Wizards only Multiplication Factor: Full Population: Limn Registered Population: 250,000 Citizens: All non-slave Multiplication Factor: 2 (All non-slave) Full Population: 500,000 Qeodhar Registered Population: 25,000 Citizens: All non-slave (high slave population due to piratical activities and slave trade with mainland) Multiplication Factor: 4 Full Population: 100,000 Randel Registered Population: 150,000 Citizens: Spellcasters Multiplication Factor: 4 (Spellcasters) Full Population: 600,000 Shiye-Lawr Registered Population: 55,000 Citizens: Name-level Elves only Multiplication Factor: 5 Full Population: 250,000 Stonewall Registered Population: 1,600,000 Citizens: All Multiplication Factor: 1 Full Population: 1,600,000 Note: Disproportionally high population caused by the large number of Imperial Armies stationed here. Indiginous population is much lower Stoutfellow Registered Population: 60,000 Citizens: All non-slave Multiplication Factor: 2 Full Population: 125,000 Theranderol Registered Population: 200,000 Citizens: Spellcasters Multiplication Factor: 4 (Spellcasters), add 50% metropolitan Full Population: 1,200,000 Vertiloch Registered Population: 2,000,000 Citizens: Spellcasters, but all but non-slaves are registered Multiplication Factor: 2 Full Population: 4,000,000 Yannivey Islands Registered Population: 5,000 (Based on records of exiled prisoners in past 5 years) Citizens: None Multiplication Factor: 5 Full Population: 25,000 Population Density: Continent of Bellissaria Dawnrim Registered Population: 25,000 Citizens: All non-slave Multiplication Factor: 3 (many slaves in agriculture) Full Population: 75,000 Horken Registered Population: 25,000 Citizens: Spellcasters Multiplication Factor: 4, add 25% Metropolitan Full Population: 125,000 Lagrius Registered Population: 150,000 Citizens: Non-slave Multiplication Factor: 2, add 25% metropolitan Full Population: 375,000 Meriander Registered Population: 100,000 Citizens: Spellcasters only Multiplication Factor: 4 add 25% metropolitan Full Population: 500,000 Notrion Registered Population: 50,000 Citizens: Non-slave Multiplication Factor: 3 (many slaves in agriculture) Full Population: 150,000 Surshield Registered Population: 100,000 Citizens: Non-slave Multiplication Factor: 2 Full Population: 200,000 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.