========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:19:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis: Why Alphatian society ought to be considered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia and Thyatis: Why Alphatian society ought to be considered Chaotic Evil > Continuing the periodic discussion of the distinction between Alphatia and > Thyatis: > > An interesting attitude to discuss today: > > > The only difference is the Alphatians ADMIT they do it! > > > This does bring up an interesting point, probably reflecting attitudes of > more than just the person who wrote it. Clearly some people are attracted > to Alphatia in part because they see a lack of hypocrisy in its society - > thus the remark above, clearly meant to draw what the writer thought would > be a distinction favorable to the Alphatians. Yet again, against all the odds, you firmly grasp the wrong end of the stick. This constant thrusting upon me of Alphatiaphile/Thyatiaphobe by you is somewhat disquieting however. It seem that you have a desire to be quarrelsome and mean to force me into the role of opponent in this matter. Yes I do like Alphatia, I also like Thyatis. I LOATHE SNAFU 1(WotI), not for what was done as much as for the explanations of how it was done. The swift consolidation of the remaining fragments of Alphatia and it's becoming the USAlphatia alone would gain one entrance to "MILLIWAYS", haven't managed to get there on it myself though. The implosion and restructuring of Thyatis, whilst I may disagree with certain aspects, is a much better reflection of what the fallout from SNAFU would cause to ALL involved parties. As to my attitude, if the original joke had been written as if by an Alphatian about a Thyatian, my response would have been identical except from a Thyatian point of view. No need for all of your deep meaningless psychobabble, sometimes a reply shows nothing of what a person actually thinks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:14:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This one's much easier to answer, as it turns out - the very fact that > Aline/Liena reached Immortality means that her Dynasty can't fall yet - > thus, Oesterhaus can't seize control of the entire Empire right now. > Presumably, Aline/Liena would have travelled forward to insure the success > of her Dynasty in the future, in much the same way that al-Kalim made an > apearance in the MA 1015 to prevent Fiends from eliminating his. > Since she only has to protect Thyatis in it's current form until the birth of a grandchild or 20 years, and Eusebius was born in 961 (I presume that the 261 listed in DotE is actually this). Then her next intervention would be after the death of Eusebius. Seems that Thincol was on his own back in 980's. A fact that was part of why I suggested it would be possible for him to quest in the first place. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alph vs Thy: vs Paul? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This constant thrusting upon me of Alphatiaphile/Thyatiaphobe by you is > somewhat disquieting however. > I never said you were either. In fact, I didn't mention you by name at all. You merely penned a phrase that was useful to discuss, expressing an outlook that, as I said, is probably found in several other people. In fact, I know it to be because similar statements have expressed nearly identical attitudes. In this instance, the rest of your personal attitudes towards either place, and indeed yourself at all, was completely irrelivant to the discussion. > It seem that you have a desire to be > quarrelsome and mean to force me into the role of opponent in this matter. > No, you're the one who's personalizing things at this point - you read a general discussion, which I guess you disagreed with, on Alphatia (mainly) and Thyatis (tangentially) and decided that it was a personal attack on Paul George Dooley, who's name appeared nowhere in the post. Well, I'm sorry if you took it that way, but I think you're giving yourself much too much importance in my life. > Yes I do like Alphatia, I also like Thyatis. > Well, that's nice. Thank you for sharing. There are, as I've said before, aspects of both that are interesting and likable, from a game standpoint. However, Alphatia's social order - while perhaps interesting to game in (*will* have to poll people some time to see how many play Alphatian characters, in Alphatia, who are not aristocrats), is quite probably the least "likable" on Mystara. > I LOATHE SNAFU 1(WotI), not for > what was done as much as for the explanations of how it was done. > Well, that can be discussed, too, and we'd probably find some large points of agreement about various things - however, I do think that these can be over emphasized. It's almost too easy to pick apart various pieces of the WotI plot (from "small" anoying things like wasting the excellent character of Torenal by killing him off, to other things like the all-too-easy burning of the Alphatian skyship fleet, to larger things like the Alphatian strategy in general, which would have better been served by slicing through Heldann, with easily-aquired Ethengari cooperation, and then into Glantri, ignoring the Thyatian mainland because that, given Alphatia's war goals, was an irrelivant sideshow and thus a waste of time, effort, and soldiers - and that's just briefly mentioning the things I didn't like about how they handled Alphatia in the war). That's another topic than the one I went into, but I wouldn't mind discussing it further with you or others if you've got more you want to say on it. > get there on it myself though. The implosion and restructuring of Thyatis, > whilst I may disagree with certain aspects, is a much better reflection of > what the fallout from SNAFU would cause to ALL involved parties. > That's probably true, but indeed was, if anything, one of my points (refering to "crisis-tossed" Thyatis and the *potential* for revitalization, vs. refering to "fortune" as what Alphatia has thrived on - "fortune" being a proxy I used for "favorable scripting"). > No need for all of your deep meaningless psychobabble > Ahh, see, this is what I do find irritating about you at times, if we must turn to personal comments - on the one hand, above, you whine about me being a big meanie "forcing" you into the role of opponent, regarding something I wrote that wasn't about you at all, but an attitude you concisely and convieniently expressed (which is why I used it), and was about two fantasy countries - not yourself (to repeat that for emphasis). But then on the other hand, while decrying "meanness" on the part of others, you feel free to be as derisive as you'd like towards people, and make things personal by directing personal, contemptuous remarks towards them on the MML, where, lets face it, they really don't belong - ok, I did it too, till I remembered it wasn't appropriate, so I'm at fault, but Puh-leeze - don't act all put-upon and victimized when it comes to things you have instigated! "I feel so sorry for Paul, the very soul of politeness, being attacked without provocation" is not likely to be anyone's reaction to this. In any case, if such things are to go on, hell I don't care - I can give back whatever I receive, in spades - but they don't belong on the MML, inflicting them on others who aren't interested in what two posters think of each other (they joined to discuss what people think of Mystara and its aspects, not to be exposed to personal antagonisms). I know you have my e-mail address, so if you have something you want to say too or about me, feel free to use it. Just don't flood other people's mailboxes with your expressions of contempt towards me. Flood mine if you desire. > sometimes a reply shows nothing of what a person actually thinks. > Right - I've posted such things myself. HOWEVER, it is *not* beyond the bounds for people to react to things that you, or I, or others, write - they certainly can't respond to what you think, not being mind-readers. People can only respond to what is written. And sometimes, as in this case, it's not really important who said something or if they really believe it or not. Also, one is responsible for one's own remarks. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:22:07 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > On the other hand, the future that a Dynast travels to in order to aid his > or her successors is not THE future and can be changed -- so it is quite > possible for a Dynast to achieve Immortality and then for subsequent > events to eliminate the dynasty completely > At first I thought that, too, and it was going to be one of the points I was going to make. However, that doesn't *quite* seem to be the case per the description of the Dynast in WotI - all it says is that *if* the aspirant fails the attempt, *then* ". . .the future [would] be rewritten because of that failure, and all the events of the Trial will never happen." It doesn't say that even if the aspirant succeeded the future wouldn't nessissarily follow the events of the Trial (though I did think I might have read that somewhere, but I couldn't find it in an admitedly brief search). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:53:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The famous novelist Umberto Eco spoke about this and he seem pretty sure that those words were spoken by the legate... jdaly a �crit: > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. Despite this, > there are plenty of anti-Catholics who like to bring it up. Feel free to > discuss with me offline. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Keyser > To: > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:10 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > Frederic Ferro wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > Just a side question - what was the Albagensian Crusade? I've never > heard > > > > of that one before - at least by that name. > > > > > > A dualistic gnostic heresy called "Catharism" became widespread in > > > Southern France. They were also called "Albigensians" because of the > city > > > of Albi. > > > > > > Around 1210, the Pope launched a Crusade againt the Cathars and > > > the Cathars were slaughtered until extinction (in Beziers, when asked > "Who > > > should we spare?", the Legate of the Pope answered "Slay them all, God > > > will sort them out"). > > > > Actually, he ordered everyone in the city to be slaughtered. When a > > subordinate made a moral objection, that there were Catholics as well > > Albigensians in the city, his reply in the closest translation to English > > was, "Slay them all, God will know His own." > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:54:23 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-04-29 11:25:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << At first I thought that, too, and it was going to be one of the points I was going to make. However, that doesn't *quite* seem to be the case per the description of the Dynast in WotI - all it says is that *if* the aspirant fails the attempt, *then* ". . .the future [would] be rewritten because of that failure, and all the events of the Trial will never happen." It doesn't say that even if the aspirant succeeded the future wouldn't nessissarily follow the events of the Trial (though I did think I might have read that somewhere, but I couldn't find it in an admitedly brief search). >> See Book One, p. 49, "A Final Note" paragraph. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:41:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Alph vs Thy: vs Paul? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since James has seen fit to offer an olive branch of sorts privately, after throwing another couple of harpoons at the beached whale of my ego,I think this is now at an end. I thank the list OGRE for his patience inthis matter and promise it'll NEVER, NEVER NEVER happen again! Until the next time of course! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > See Book One, p. 49, "A Final Note" paragraph. > Doh! It was right there in plain sight the whole time. That's actually good, though, 'cause I like that much better than pre-ordained outcomes. "could mean" leaves things open for variation - things might follow the Dynast's actions, or they might not. However, a good additional question does arise - Part of the "Task" requirements is that the character must "found" a Dynasty. Do people think it is possible for "successive" Dynasts (I.E. someone, like Aline, "founds" a Dynasty as part of her Task, is it then possible, as has been suggested, for one of her decendents to take the same path, achieving Immortality as part of an already-existing Dynasty)? What about folks who follow the path of the Dynast in pre-existing realms, as far as the "Testimony" goes? In the case of Aline, Thyatis already existed, but I guess it might be argued that the "Thyatian Hinterlands" was the Realm that was "created" with 50,000+ inhabitants, and that Ravenscarp was the "new capital" of "that land", but in other cases this aspect of the "Testimony" seems to have been waived (I.E. Petra; Krakatos and Petra's "realm" existed before she started her quest for Immortality), at least in part. Perhaps instead of requiring a realm to be "created", Immortal Sponsors in the Sphere of time simply allow already-existing realms to be "enhanced" by the aspirant (I.E. take the IRL historical case of Octavian/Augustus - Rome already existed as a great city and capital of a mighty empire, but it might be said that he initiated so many changes as to have "re-founded" or re-created the "realm" and its capital - "found a city of bricks, and left a city of marble" as it were). What do people think of that type of interpretation of "creating" a realm and a "great new capital" for it? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Novelist" doesn't constitute a reliable historical source. Neither do the words "he was pretty sure". ----- Original Message ----- From: thibault sarlat To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > The famous novelist Umberto Eco spoke about this and he seem pretty sure that > those words were spoken by the legate... > > jdaly a �crit: > > > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. Despite this, > > there are plenty of anti-Catholics who like to bring it up. Feel free to > > discuss with me offline. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave Keyser > > To: > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > > > Frederic Ferro wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > > Just a side question - what was the Albagensian Crusade? I've never > > heard > > > > > of that one before - at least by that name. > > > > > > > > A dualistic gnostic heresy called "Catharism" became widespread in > > > > Southern France. They were also called "Albigensians" because of the > > city > > > > of Albi. > > > > > > > > Around 1210, the Pope launched a Crusade againt the Cathars and > > > > the Cathars were slaughtered until extinction (in Beziers, when asked > > "Who > > > > should we spare?", the Legate of the Pope answered "Slay them all, God > > > > will sort them out"). > > > > > > Actually, he ordered everyone in the city to be slaughtered. When a > > > subordinate made a moral objection, that there were Catholics as well > > > Albigensians in the city, his reply in the closest translation to English > > > was, "Slay them all, God will know His own." > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -- > Thibault Sarlat > ICQ 16622177. > My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr > Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi > Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, > rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, a good additional question does arise - Part of the "Task" > requirements is that the character must "found" a Dynasty. Do people think > it is possible for "successive" Dynasts (I.E. someone, like Aline, "founds" > a Dynasty as part of her Task, is it then possible, as has been suggested, > for one of her decendents to take the same path, achieving Immortality as > part of an already-existing Dynasty)? Well, the "found a Dynasty" clause shouldn't be too rigid. For example, say Emperor Maximillian XIV of the Fjederoff Dynasty wanted to become Immortal in the Sphere of Time. He's already got a Dynasty - maybe his trial is to strengthen and support the dynasty that he already has? Or he could leave and found a country somewhere else! The Rules for this, I think, were laid down for PCs who don't have a country of their own. I'm sure that Khronous doesn't mind a bit of tinkering for the poor mortals that got stuck with a pre-founded Dynasty! Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:35:15 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit excuse me , but when you will be one of the most famous professor of medieval history , specialized in the religious matter ,and when you would have had published one of the best selling book about this period (even if it is a novel), when you would be one of the brightest man of the century, then i would think that YOU are right over Umberto Eco. He might be wrong on a lot of thing , but certainly not about this. jdaly a �crit: > "Novelist" doesn't constitute a reliable historical source. Neither do the > words "he was pretty sure". > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: thibault sarlat > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:53 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > The famous novelist Umberto Eco spoke about this and he seem pretty sure > that > > those words were spoken by the legate... > > > > jdaly a �crit: > > > > > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > > > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. Despite > this, > > > there are plenty of anti-Catholics who like to bring it up. Feel free > to > > > discuss with me offline. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Dave Keyser > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:10 AM > > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > > > > > Frederic Ferro wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > > > Just a side question - what was the Albagensian Crusade? I've > never > > > heard > > > > > > of that one before - at least by that name. > > > > > > > > > > A dualistic gnostic heresy called "Catharism" became widespread in > > > > > Southern France. They were also called "Albigensians" because of the > > > city > > > > > of Albi. > > > > > > > > > > Around 1210, the Pope launched a Crusade againt the Cathars and > > > > > the Cathars were slaughtered until extinction (in Beziers, when > asked > > > "Who > > > > > should we spare?", the Legate of the Pope answered "Slay them all, > God > > > > > will sort them out"). > > > > > > > > Actually, he ordered everyone in the city to be slaughtered. When a > > > > subordinate made a moral objection, that there were Catholics as well > > > > Albigensians in the city, his reply in the closest translation to > English > > > > was, "Slay them all, God will know His own." > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > Find Local Players: > http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > -- > > Thibault Sarlat > > ICQ 16622177. > > My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr > > Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi > > Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, > > rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:00:58 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Inquisition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Francisco V. Navarro" wrote: > Actually, the GPD had a recent discussion about the Laterran migration. The > idea was brought up that it was them Inquisitor clerics who closed down the > Gate to prevent the wizards from escaping. > > I'm supposed to be writing a short story based on this... better get > writing... if you finished it please send it to me. thanks. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:18:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, wow, the "dispute quotation" is in a middle ages chronicle... I agree in chronicles of the time being far away from objective and, many times, putting words in the mouths of characters. The only thing we can know is that, for many many people of the Middle Ages after the Albigensian Crusade, that was the "official version", which does not have to be the true one... and the famous phrase, well, if it was not truly said, it's a fact that the Albigensian Crusade was one of the most bloody episodes of the history of Middle Ages in Western Europe: the point is that the Pope gave it the quality of a Crusade, something which, before, was reserved to the expeditions to the Orient against Islam. Giving that the Reconquista in Spain at the same time (vs. Islam too) was not called "Crusade" because it was not a fight for the Holy Places, that name for the Albigensian war seems "suspicious", lots of economic and political interests involved and great doses of brutality... Well, I am writing a book right now about the Kindom of Aragon in the 13th Century, and the first chapter focuses on the Albigensian Crusade; it's a pleasure to talk about it, but the topic is rather un-Mystara, and I think that nobody should get offended in their beliefs or academic points of view, as we were just talking on "inspirational material" for possible fantasy RPG scenarios, so, whether the RW inspiration is fact or legend, it does not matter to the main aim of the list: lots of Mystara has grown on RW legends, not historically proved facts. We can discuss history offlist, it's my job and Mystara is a hobby Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The players in my new Karameikos campaign are about to find themselves caught up in the major subplot of the campaign. They're going to get involved in one of the Black Eagle's plots to regain power in the region (via the sword Reaver, posted to the list previously). Now, how they stumble across the sword, though, is hooked into the origins of Midwood hamlet (halfway along the Westron Road, between Mirros and Radlebb Keep) and the history of the wizard player character's mentor. Before I get to my question, here's the write-up for Nicodemus Majoh, the Wizard of Midwood. --- 6. The cottage of the Wizard of Midwood The doors, shutters and windows to the cottage will only open for wizards (Nicodemus' Locking, set at level 1), although as far as the residents of Midwood know, only Nicodemus and his apprentice can open any of them. Small mouths are carved over each of the windows, and a magic mouth is cast on each, to shout "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AT THE WINDOW?" when anyone approaches that way, other than Nicodemus or Greywand. There is a wooden bench outside the front door. The path to the cottage is semi-overgrown, as the path through the underbrush and trees is only trafficked by Greywand and Nicodemus most days, although there's the occasional visitor who seeks out the "Wizard of Midwood" for help or advice. NICODEMUS MAJOH, THE WIZARD OF MIDWOOD Neutral Good male human wizard 5, Midwood, Karameikos Nicodemus Majoh is the Wizard of Midwood, and left Thyatis for Karameikos in 970, settling in the area that would become Midwood around him in 978. (The original owners of the Shady Dragon Inn built the inn near his cottage in 980.) He chose the area to watch over a great evil a rogue Callarii elf had called up, which is now sealed in a nearby ruined keep and dungeon (the great evil is actually a creature sent by Alphaks in response to pleas from Traladaran militants shortly after Thyatis took of the region decades before). The elf, unfortunately, was important enough that his supporters have forever after hated Nicodemus and isolated him politically, making Midwood one of the few places in the Radlebb Forest where one will not find elves. But Nicodemus still has his supporters amongst the elves, and some of his older friends refer to him as "Nicodemus Elf-friend," a name he picked up during his first years in Karameikos. He is an old man (born in 941), with a long weedy white beard and is nearly bald on top. His eyes are piercing bright blue under his bushy eyebrows, and he wears a long brown robe with a dark green vest over it. He often wears a large brown hat with an enormous brim. Nicodemus has a sharp tongue, and doesn't suffer fools gladly, and can be a bit curt with those he thinks are wasting his time. On the other hand, he's extraordinarily patient and kind to those he thinks are genuinely in need. He also sees himself as the protector of those less able than himself, and is well-informed of what goes on in his portion of the forest, thanks to the Callarii elves and various woodsmen and peddlers. He is very wise (Wisdom 17) and only his passion for magic kept him from becoming a cleric as a younger man. While dedicated to helping others, he's not above using any means he deems necessary to do so, and may surprise people with his ruthlessness at times. Nicodemus took in the apprentice he calls Greywand when the boy's mother appeared at the inn 20 years ago. She died - some say of a magical curse - that night, leaving behind an infant boy. Nicodemus took him in and trained him as an apprentice, much to the surprise of those who knew him. (Greywand's mother, Valeria, was actually an apprentice of Bargle the Infamous who fled Fort Doom when she saw the tortures they were conducting on the Hin. She had intended to alert Duke Stephan of the truth, but was struck down by Bargle remotely.) He has an owl familiar, Aristophanes, who perches on the bend at the top of Nicodemus' staff. Inside the cottage, the owl nests in a brass brazier suspended from the ceiling in a corner. Nicodemus speaks Thyatian, Traladaran and Elvish (Callarii dialect). Proficiencies: Reading/Writing (Thyatian, Traladaran, Elvish), Spellcraft, Herbalism, Weather Sense, Local History (Thyatis, Karameikos) Spell book includes: 1) Affect Normal Fires, Cantrip*, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Light, Magic Missile, Mending*, Protection from Evil*, Read Magic, Sleep*, 2) Continual Light, Knock, Magic Mouth, Nicodemus' Locking, Protection from Cantrips*, Stinking Cloud, Summon Swarm*, 3) Dispel Magic, Flame Arrow, Hold Person* The spell book, along with Greywand's swaddling clothes (bearing the crest of the Black Eagle Barony) are kept in a carved wooden box created by Callarii elves that is locked by Nicodemus' Locking, level 2, along with a letter to Greywand and a letter of recommendation for him at the Karameikean School of Magecraft in Krakatos. Spell components Nicodemus needs for his spells include: brass brazier (currently used as Aristophanes' bed), incense*, pearls worth 100 gp each*, live fireflies, burrs, powdered silver*, mineral prism*, live crickets, honeycomb, square of red cloth, flint, oil, short iron rods. (Components marked with an asterisk are provided once a month or so by the peddler Alexandra Minimus.) Nicodemus' Locking Alteration Level: Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: Three actions Range: Touch Effect: 10 square feet/level Duration: Special Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes A variant on the venerable wizard lock spell by Nicodemus Majoh, the Wizard of Midwood, Nicodemus' locking can be cast upon doors, chests, windows and books, magically sealing them shut. The caster may freely open or close the object without affecting it. Anyone else attempting to open the object must use knock or dispel magic. The spell can also be dispelled if a being with spell resistance attempts to open the locked object (one attempt only). A wizard four or more levels higher than the caster can always open a locked object, although the caster may lower the level required to open the object this way, allowing a wizard of any stated level to open the object instead. This spell may not be cast in conjunction with permanency. The spell is normally permanent, except that there is a one percent chance per year that the spell has faded and can be dispelled with a successful attempt to open doors. Material component: The caster must rub spider webs along the area of the object that normally opens, such as the edges of a book's pages or the frame of a door. The webs vanish into the object affected. --- The sword Reaver is going to be hidden in the Traladaran ruins by the man who smuggled it out of Halag, seeking to throw the two groups of humanoids chasing him off its trail. The heroes, of course, will have to retrieve the sword and get it away from Midwood. OK, now for my questions: Is Alphaks an appropriate evil diety for Traladaran militants to have called upon to eject the Thyatians, shortly after they conquered the territory? What sort of entity might he send to the Traladarans (it has to be something that could survive several decades of being imprisoned in the keep)? Any ideas on what might motivate the elf who freed it? Any additional information about the Callari that would be appropriate? Feedback and suggestions greatly appreciated. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Frederic Ferro Subject: Ordeals Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians In-Reply-To: <000701bfb153$b01c2660$6232140a@friendlynet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, jdaly wrote: > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. No, there is, see http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~medieval/mediev-l/msg00608.html The Pope was never "accused" (although according to the Catholic Encylopedia Innocent III said that "Cathars are worse than Saracens"). The Legate Arnaud Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, is reported to have uttered the sentence on July 22 1209 and I doubt most people from the Middle Ages would have had problems with it. After all the ideas of "Ordalie" (iudicium Dei or ordeal) and Divine Providence give a different meaning to it. Even if you deny the reliability of the Cistercian Pierre Cesaire, you should wonder *why* he would have fabricated this story while (a) he was sympathetic to the cause of the Crusaders and (b) belonged to the same Monastic Order as Arnaud Amaury! ObMystara: Which countries use Duels or Ordeals in their justice? Heldannic Knights must use the Judgement of Vanya. Ylaris may have "mubahala" or "mu'ba'hala" ("prayer duels") like Real World Muslims but only between different Ylari factions (Kin and Preceptors). ff ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:50:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well, the "found a Dynasty" clause shouldn't be too rigid. > True, which is why the question, but. . . > For example, say Emperor Maximillian XIV of the Fjederoff > Dynasty wanted to become Immortal in the Sphere of Time. > He's already got a Dynasty - maybe his trial is to > strengthen and support the dynasty that he already has? Or > he could leave and found a country somewhere else! > Well, leaving and founding a country somewhere else would almost certainly qualify, the other thing is what becomes more tricky. > The Rules for this, I think, were laid down for PCs who > don't have a country of their own. I'm sure that Khronous > doesn't mind a bit of tinkering for the poor mortals that > got stuck with a pre-founded Dynasty! > Yes, *but* by the time PCs reach the level (~30th OD&D) where they're going to start planning for Immortality, many of them already have dominions. I'd venture to guess that most of those who'd be interested in pursuing the Path of the Dynast would almost certainly already have dominions, and possibly even "founded" a dynasty (whelped a litter or two, as appropriate to the breeding methods of their kind, and thus have a successor). So if the rules were written with such folk in mind, well, I guess this is starting to be more of a complaint about the rules than a question now, so I'll stop. But, here's a question: For those who've had PCs who've pursued the Path of the Dynast, if they already had a Dominion, how have you handled this situation? Did you make them start over with a new Dominion? Expand the old one territorially? Or "just" enhance the development of the one they already had? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:06:29 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob > > > > OK, I feel better now :) > > Cheers > > Rob I must reclutantly admit I mostly agree with your rant. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:02:39 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > OK, now for my questions: Is Alphaks an appropriate evil diety for >Traladaran militants to have called upon to eject the Thyatians, shortly >after they conquered the territory? What sort of entity might he send to >the Traladarans (it has to be something that could survive several decades >of being imprisoned in the keep)? Any ideas on what might motivate the elf >who freed it? Any additional information about the Callari that would be >appropriate? > Feedback and suggestions greatly appreciated. First off, let me say that I really like Nicodemus and the mini-setting you've created here. One suggestion for general atmosphere is that it might be interesting to sprinkle one or two of the Traladaran dominions from Night of the Vampire nearby--Midwood is at least fairly close to Vandevicsny. As for your question. I would suggest that you pick some immortal other than Alphaks. Alphaks is first and foremost anti-Alphatian and their descendents. He dislikes the Flaem (and, perhaps, the Ierendian Fire Mages) almost as much as the Alphatians, but nonetheless, he seems rather unlikely to come to the aid of Traladarans in order to stymie the Thyatians. The Thyatians aren't necessarily Alphaks friends, but they are the enemies of his enemies. I would recommend that you choose one of the Entropic immortals with a bit more of a history in Karameikos. Leptar would be my top recommendation, since he's the sort of brute to summon something very powerful and very brutal, and since he has a bad track record with the Thyatian Church of Karameikos. Other possibilities include Arik (though, since he's imprisoned, I wouldn't recommend him) because of his history in Karameikos, Thanatos because of his continuing efforts to corrupt Thyatis, or Atzanteotl, who seems to be involved in quite a bit of Mystara's goings-on. Orcus or Demogorgon could also work if you want a more generic immortal fiend. Since Atzanteotl has by far the best track record of corrupting elves, you might want to use him if you'd like there to be an undercurrent of genuine evil in some of the Callarii. As for the great evil sent, it could be nearly anything. It really depends on how powerful you want it. I'd recommend some sort of undead or perhaps a fiend (do you have Wrath of the Immortals?). A Soul Eater (Spectral Death in the MMCA) could be good too, if an immortal summoning could bind it to serve for an indefinite period of time. Probably a fiend would be best. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:09:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >But, here's a question: For those who've had PCs who've pursued the Path of >the Dynast, if they already had a Dominion, how have you handled this >situation? Did you make them start over with a new Dominion? Expand the old >one territorially? Or "just" enhance the development of the one they >already had? Well, I haven't DMed a Dynast, but I'd say that the CoM certainly implies that the Dynast needn't begin a new dominion after being accepted as a candidate: Yav did not consciously walk the Path of the Dynast, but, by fulfilling its requirements, he made it. This makes me think that it's not necessary to found a new dominon after 30th level, but one should be founded/built/something. Still, if a country is not built from the ground up, it should have to be expanded at the very least. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:44:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > He chose the area to watch over a great evil a rogue Callarii elf had > called up, which is now sealed in a nearby ruined keep and dungeon (the > great evil is actually a creature sent by Alphaks in response to pleas from > Traladaran militants shortly after Thyatis took of the region decades > before). The elf, unfortunately, was important enough that his supporters > have forever after hated Nicodemus and isolated him politically, making > Midwood one of the few places in the Radlebb Forest where one will not find > elves.
> OK, now for my questions: Is Alphaks an appropriate evil diety for > Traladaran militants to have called upon to eject the Thyatians, shortly > after they conquered the territory? What sort of entity might he send to > the Traladarans (it has to be something that could survive several decades > of being imprisoned in the keep)? Any ideas on what might motivate the elf > who freed it? Any additional information about the Callari that would be > appropriate? > Feedback and suggestions greatly appreciated. I would suggest Atzanteotl, as he loves corrupting elves (or anyone else for that matter). Here's a question for you though. The rogue Callarii elf - why don't you twist the plot to make actually a Shadow Elf of the "hidden" Second Shadow posing as a Callarii elf. The years and years spent away from his homeland and surrounded by his "enemies" (the surface elves) has weakened his grip on reality and made him a prime candidate for Azanteotl to bend to his will. (This would also explain his high political influence; he'd be a master manipulator before even joining the Callarii). As for the big nasty at the end, well it depends on how many scenarios it has to live through. Personally, I'd lean towards a Whispering Demon. That would keep with Atzanteotl's methods. Don't forget - the PCs don't have to kill it to defeat it (and it would make a good recurring bad guy). Let me know how your campaign goes. :) mr.dead@btinternet.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:55:21 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-04-29 1:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << However, a good additional question does arise - Part of the "Task" requirements is that the character must "found" a Dynasty. Do people think it is possible for "successive" Dynasts (I.E. someone, like Aline, "founds" a Dynasty as part of her Task, is it then possible, as has been suggested, for one of her decendents to take the same path, achieving Immortality as part of an already-existing Dynasty)? What about folks who follow the path of the Dynast in pre-existing realms, as far as the "Testimony" goes? In the case of Aline, Thyatis already existed, but.... >> But in another sense, she really did found a dynasty and an empire, with herself in the "kingmaker" role for her son. Remember that the Alphatian Empire would have conquered and thus eliminated the Thyatian Empire had Thincol not rallied the gladiators and fought back, so in a sense he was re-creating a Thyatian Empire that had momentarily ceased to exist. Whatever points she lost for lack of originality would be more than made up for by the sheer size of the empire that her son saved and then took over. And even though Thincol legitimized his takeover by marrying the daughter of the old emperor, it is Thincol and his descendants and not the old imperial family that would count for Aline in her overall quest. So I would suggest that "founding" could have the broader meaning of "reunifying" or "bringing back from the brink of annihilation" under one's own rule or under the rule of somebody placed on the throne by one's efforts -- but I am not sure that somebody who inherits a peaceful and stable realm and adds a dominion or two to it would qualify for Immortality. But that should not be a problem for Dynasts -- any ruler who gets powerful enough to seek Immortality will attract more than enough Immortal enemies who will gladly put his nation into the crises that he must deliver it from. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:03:59 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, *but* by the time PCs reach the level (~30th OD&D) where they're going > to start planning for Immortality, many of them already have dominions. I'd > venture to guess that most of those who'd be interested in pursuing the > Path of the Dynast would almost certainly already have dominions, and > possibly even "founded" a dynasty Untrue. A Dynasty is a LONG lineage of ruling desecndants. For an example - look at Egypts dynasties! thousands of years of rule by one families' descendants. (or so it is thought) Just having kids does not a Dynasty make. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:04:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Ordeals in Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would add Northern Reaches (Norsemen in RW used ordeals as well as trial by combat), Shadowelves (for shamans it's explicitly said in GAZ13) and perhaps some of the Savage Baronies like Torreon and Narvaez (ordeals were used in Spain through the Middle Ages up to the Renaissance). There are some "peaceful ordeals", those which do not involve submission of one person to possible harm, like seeing which part's candle burns first, or tossing up straws into the water and see which takes longer to sink, that could be commonplace in many rural areas, where justice does not fall into big law bureaucracy... these ordeals were common in RW from Far East to Norse lands during antiquity and middle ages, where priests or shamans or village elders administered justice. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:16:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis: WhyAlphatiansocietyoughttobeconsideredChaotic Evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:17:59 James Ruhland wrote (replying to me): >> >>> I know you weren't speaking in character, and neither was I, but you are >judging the Alphatians from an ethical and moral standard that they do not >share and do not subject themselves to.<< > >So? That doesn't mean their society cannot be critiqued. By the way, my >point wasn't that they should have had thus and such an ethical and moral >standard instead of this or that one, but rather that they might consider >adopting a standard of behavior, since they lack one *at* *all*. > Well, they certainly aren't completely chaotic as you implied as they *do* have laws and they do have a society - Alphatia is not an anarchy, but it is a very liberalistic society, with a government that's defined negatively, as it's primary function is to avoid anarchy... In fact, the laws are interpreted rather strictly, so I'd say that being chaotic is a streak of the Alphatian personality, but not really an integrated part of their society. As for being evil, see below. >Also, it simply isn't the case that, from a game stand point at least, that >it isn't proper to "judge" this or that game society from a certain point >of view. I hardly think you'd say that I was mis-applying moral standards >if I made the same points about, say, Drow society or the society of Demons >in the Abyss (which are comparable), simply because the Demons and Drow >Priestesses do not share or subject themselves to such ethical standards. >Likely it is only who's oxen are getting gored that you find objectionable, >not the fact that they may deserve being gored. Well, an excellent example of why I find that it is simply wrong to call Alphatia in general evil - it is IMNSHO very far removed from societies such as those you mention (drow and demons), which are evil. I might just as well call Thyatis lawful evil, since (from reading DOTE) I got the impression that everybody (almost) is trying to 'bend' the rules to suit themselves, but I digress... >>> Thus they are huge and contain many, many different degrees of ethical >codes and standards. << > >A true, but unfortunately spurious point to make, because one can still >comment on the societys as they are portrayed, which is what I was doing - >commenting on how their social attitudes were written, not saying there are >or aren't some others also that should be created. Though you're free to >expand on what is given, note that in Alphatia there will be no respect >accorded to those, at least by the bulk (or what used to be refered to as >the "mainstream) of Alphatian society. > Except that you didn't comment on those different nations within the empire - instead you made gross generalizations about the entire empire as such. >Also, I've noticed (again) that you tend to comment on Alphatia as if it >were what you might wish it to be, rather than what it actually is >described as being like in DotE. But to each their own. > Well, I'll let other people decide whether that is true or not, but if I'm guilty then I'd say that we partners in crime :) You're just as guilty of seeing Thyatis only in a favorable light as I may be of always siding with the Alphatians... What I really don't understand is why you insist on bringing this up every so often? I accepted after our first discussion that when he wrote DOTE Allston had succeeded more than I'd first acknowledged to capture the different values/flaws of the two empires... That had to be true since you liked Thyatis so much and hated Alphatia as much as you did, while I felt just the opposite - and from reading the same material... - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:06:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yea maybe i got too zealous about the quotation thing. Jeff, please do not regard it as an attack.it's just that i am 100% sure of the thing. but as you say there are many thing dating from that period that can't be counted as certain. But Umberto eco makes authority on the matter that' s why i tend to think that he is right. no hard feeling i hope. I humbly appologize to you. thibault =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= a �crit: > Hi, > > wow, the "dispute quotation" is in a middle ages chronicle... I agree in > chronicles of the time being far away from objective and, many times, > putting words in the mouths of characters. The only thing we can know is > that, for many many people of the Middle Ages after the Albigensian Crusade, > that was the "official version", which does not have to be the true one... > and the famous phrase, well, if it was not truly said, it's a fact that the > Albigensian Crusade was one of the most bloody episodes of the history of > Middle Ages in Western Europe: the point is that the Pope gave it the > quality of a Crusade, something which, before, was reserved to the > expeditions to the Orient against Islam. Giving that the Reconquista in > Spain at the same time (vs. Islam too) was not called "Crusade" because it > was not a fight for the Holy Places, that name for the Albigensian war seems > "suspicious", lots of economic and political interests involved and great > doses of brutality... Well, I am writing a book right now about the Kindom > of Aragon in the 13th Century, and the first chapter focuses on the > Albigensian Crusade; it's a pleasure to talk about it, but the topic is > rather un-Mystara, and I think that nobody should get offended in their > beliefs or academic points of view, as we were just talking on > "inspirational material" for possible fantasy RPG scenarios, so, whether the > RW inspiration is fact or legend, it does not matter to the main aim of the > list: lots of Mystara has grown on RW legends, not historically proved > facts. > > We can discuss history offlist, it's my job and Mystara is a hobby > Andr�s > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 08:43:01 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Paparazzi Update for Yarthmont MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hear ye! Hear ye! The Paparazzi Glantri proudly announces its monthly installment is now available for all (who dare) to see! For Yarthmont, we have the following updates: The Princes of War. A look at the Council of Princes from AC 1010 to AC 1016. (Part 2 of "The Council of Princes" series) Etiquette for Social Gatherings. A must for those of ye who plan to enter the Glantiran social scene! (Part 2 of "Glantrian Etiquette" series) Rumors about Boldavia. Finally, the rumors are discussed. The truth is revealed. (Just to show how "true" some "truths" are, there's a separate section for PCs and for DMs.) Who are the Paparazzi? Get to meet the dramatis personae behind this rumor machine. (NPCs that can come to life) Intrigas Belcadices. A short story about the Paparazzi Glantri and its plots with the nobles of Belcadiz, written in letter form. (Special thanks to Marquesa Valerya de Belcadiz y Viryana for permission to publish this story.) Les Liaisons Dangeureuses. More of the favorite links of the Paparazzi Glantri. ("Love that Iron Wolf!") Paparazzi Glantri www.geocities.com/paparazzi_glantri paparazzi_glantri@yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:25:11 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-04-29 7:04:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM writes: << Untrue. A Dynasty is a LONG lineage of ruling desecndants. For an example - look at Egypts dynasties! thousands of years of rule by one families' descendants. (or so it is thought) >> Maybe hundreds of years at best for the longest lived Egyptian dynasties -- I am not aware of any dynasty outside Japan that managed to retain its throne for over a thousand years. <> What about the Tudor dynasty in England? It consisted of Henry VII, Henry VIII, and the three children of Henry VIII. After the death of his last surviving child Elizabeth, the crown passed to the Stuarts of Scotland. And Israel (northern kingdom) had a number of "dynasties" that consisted only of a father and his son, with the son being deposed a couple of years after he took the throne. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:35:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:19:50 Beau Yarbrough wrote: > The players in my new Karameikos campaign are about to find themselves > (lots of excellent stuff snipped) Good job! Nicodemus is an excellent NPC - I might stea... borrow him myself, if I feel the need :) > The sword Reaver is going to be hidden in the Traladaran ruins by the man >who smuggled it out of Halag, seeking to throw the two groups of humanoids >chasing him off its trail. The heroes, of course, will have to retrieve the >sword and get it away from Midwood. > OK, now for my questions: Is Alphaks an appropriate evil diety for >Traladaran militants to have called upon to eject the Thyatians, shortly >after they conquered the territory? What sort of entity might he send to >the Traladarans (it has to be something that could survive several decades >of being imprisoned in the keep)? Any ideas on what might motivate the elf >who freed it? Any additional information about the Callari that would be >appropriate? > Feedback and suggestions greatly appreciated. Well, as other people have already pointed out, Alphaks may not be the best choice. The alternatives that have been offered so far are much more appropriate. You could also use Thanatos (always plotting new schemes), or an interesting Immortal might be Jammadaru, since he's the Immortal or vengeance - he seems to right wrongs, but does so by making an even greater and nastier evil... Still, he's not the most crafty Immortal around, but there are reasons why he might listen to wronged Traladarans. Someone suggested making the evil elf a shadowelf. The only problem I have with that is that it supports the idea of 'all evil elves are shadowelves' but if the PCs don't know shadowelves and you want to use them, it's probably a good way to introduce them... BTW, Callarii elves are pretty much standard D&D elves, so don't worry too much about their background - whatever you come up with probably fits unless you make them very different from the norm! The 'monster' could be anything, but it depends greatly on both how high-leveled (low-leveled ?) your group is and how much role-playing you want to do... You could challenge them with a really dangerous monster that will kill them unless they find the sword, Reaver, and use it against him - perhaps the sword is the only thing that'll kill him for some reason? I can't help but say 'beholder', but it's probably because the PCs IMC are going through lots and lots of beholders at the moment (and fearing every minute of it - ah, it's good to be the DM) ;) If the sword is to be used and it's good particularly nasty against humanoids/goblinoids, then maybe the monster should be such a creature - an ogre would be excellent if the evil Immortal is Jammadaru, for example (he's an ogre Immortal). Perhaps the ogre could even be undead with some, ahem, 'special' powers :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > A Dynasty is a LONG lineage of ruling desecndants. > NOT under the terms of the "TASK" for the Dynast. I guess, if you want to misinterpret the question I was asking, no one can stop you, but let me re-phrase it: If the character had already taken some of the steps (creating a Dominion, whelping brats to the point of having a granchild perhaps) before undertaking the Path, would they have to start over? As for the rest of the backround of my question, I refer you to my previous post. For the rest of the details on what is required of the Path of the Dynast (as opposed to Egyptian Dynasties), I refer you to WotI Book One (not Egyptian, or any other, history). Thank you. *wanders off muttering about occasional seemingly deliberate obstinateness*. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis:WhyAlphatiansocietyoughttobeconsideredChaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well, they certainly aren't completely chaotic as you implied as they *do* have laws and they do have a society - Alphatia is not an anarchy, but it is a very liberalistic society << Huh? "Liberalistic" for whom? Not for the Servile base (70+% of the population), only for the Elect, the Aristocracy - and the same might be said of Grazzt or Yeenughu in the Abyss or Drow Priestesses in Drow regimes - their societies allow them to do whatever they want, too, including dispatch or otherwise use those they are more powerful than with imputity and total freedom. As for the vast majority of Alphatian society, they are "free" only in the same sense that a Manes is "free" or a Drow slave is "free" - they're free to do whatever they can get away with without being caught, but otherwise exist to serve, and those societies (yes, they have "social orders" of sorts, too, and even "laws" of sorts) are set up to insure that status quo is maintained - just as in Alphatia (and, yes, everything I've said has a basis in DotE - if you haven't encountered it there, as you said in a previous message, it isn't because it isn't there). And yes, take Alphatia's Laws. As I pointed out, they are not established to create a sense of justice or punish the wicked more than the innocent: they are set up to 1) maintain the status quo (as it explicitly says on p.18, under "Law", in the DotE Player's Guide to Alphatia) and 2) insure that the weak (non-nobles) are punished harshly for offending the master-class (aristocrats), while the master class usually isn't "punished" as such but merely required to minimally comphensate for the harms they cause (and, in the case of slaves, the law mandates no punishment for doing whatever they please to them - though they might owe the owner for damaging their property). Similarly motivated "laws" are enfourced in Menzoberranzan. > > Except that you didn't comment on those different nations within the empire - instead you made gross generalizations about the entire empire as such. << > I followed DotE's overview of Alphatia. You might not like it, and thus consider it a "gross generalization" to be ignored, but there you have it. Of course, it is true that laws can vary all over Alphatia, and vary from day to day, because the whims of the rulers of Alphatia have the force of absolute law, just like the whims of the rulers of various planes in the Abyss. > > > What I really don't understand is why you insist on bringing this up every so often? << So we can have interesting discussions such as this one. Well, here's a couple questions - 1st: what do you think are the defining characteristics of Alphatian law that gives it an aspect of Justice? I mean, for Thyatis I can easily define it - laws apply regardless of social status, and punishment is based upon the crime and level of culpability of the criminal, rather than the social status of the victim and the perpetrator. The problem in Thyatis comes from misaplication of the law, not an absence of a concept of justice. What is it about Alphatian "laws" that give them a just character? 2nd: What is it about Alphatian society that is absent from other Mystaran societies and admirable, or finds a more admirable expression in Alphatia than elsewhere? Remembering that the liberty (or, rather, freedom) to do whatever one wants is, in Alphatia, limited to a minority proportion of the population (very opressive restrictions apply to the vast majority of the people, enforced by Imperial Law). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:24:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do people think of > that type of interpretation of "creating" a realm and a "great new capital" > for it? > Looks like the world may end folks, as apparently James and I might actually agree on something. Personally I've already been using such a version in my campaigns. After all there's only so much room on Mystara, other planets in the Prime just aren't Mystara, and pre-existing Immortals stomp all over any set-ups in other planes. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:49:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for the great evil sent, it could be nearly anything. It really depends > on how powerful you want it. I'd recommend some sort of undead or perhaps a > fiend (do you have Wrath of the Immortals?). A Soul Eater (Spectral Death > in the MMCA) could be good too, if an immortal summoning could bind it to > serve for an indefinite period of time. Probably a fiend would be best. > The only problem with a fiend is, when played properly, they can stomp all over even high level parties. The taking of the all spells option for 100TP makes even the 'weakest' more than most can handle. Those who also have enough TP for a few 'Reduce Saving Throw' spells as well just waltz through the suddenly dead PCs. Whilst this is also true to an extent with any other 'monster', the ability for the GM to say, "Save against Disintegration at -20", puts them in a whole new category. Personally I'd go for an undead type, suitable for the level of the party, and if needed increase the number appearing. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:55:26 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-04-29 10:12:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << NOT under the terms of the "TASK" for the Dynast. I guess, if you want to misinterpret the question I was asking, no one can stop you, but let me re-phrase it: If the character had already taken some of the steps (creating a Dominion, whelping brats to the point of having a granchild perhaps) before undertaking the Path, would they have to start over? >> Here is my take on it: Let us suppose that we have a hero who during the course of his adventures has already created a realm and that he has increased its population to 50,000 or greater. He has ruled for twenty years and fought off many challenges to his rule. Now he quests for Immortality as a Dynast. What has he already done, and what does he have left to do? I would suggest that previous actions may count for all or part of the Testimony and the Task (assuming that they involved challenges worthy of a candidate for Immortality) but that the Quest and the Trial by their very nature must be achieved after he begins on the Path of the Dynast in most cases. Most sponsors would probably prefer that some portion of the Testimony and the Task be accomplished after the candidate embarks on the Path, so at a minimum he might be required to rebuild his capital city and face at least one major challenge to his rule even if he would otherwise already have those parts of the Path completed. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:55:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just having kids does not a Dynasty make. > However it's very hard to found a dynasty without the little rugrats. I believe it has something to do with the lasting for generations thing. Just what and when is the defining moment of creating a dynasty? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:35 4/30/00 +0100, The Stalker wrote: Thanks for everyone's feedback. With your help, I think I've got it narrowed down to what I want! >Good job! Nicodemus is an excellent NPC - I might stea... borrow him myself, if I feel the need :) Thank you! My technique for building NPCs is taken from Dragon #184, incidentally, and C.M. Cline's "7-Sentence NPC" technique. And, yeah, everyone should feel free to use him. (It's not like he's going to live forever in my campaign ...) I'm also following the advice of the "Dungeoncraft" columnist -- forgot his name -- and giving every major NPC a secret. Just as Nicodemus has several (why he's in Midwood and who his apprentice really is), two of the characters (brothers) are destined to discover they've got a half-sister they never knew about, who happens to have followed in her mother's footsteps and is a rather nasty agent of the Iron Ring in Krakatos ... > ... an interesting Immortal might be Jammadaru, since he's the Immortal or vengeance - he seems to right wrongs, but does so by making an even greater and nastier evil... Still, he's not the most crafty Immortal around, but there are reasons why he might listen to wronged Traladarans. I don't have WotI -- no one's selling it on Ebay for a reasonable amount -- so I was working off the Immortals list in KKoA. Jammadaru sounds good, though: Reaver is a weapon that works best in the hands of humanoids and eventually turns its wielder into one. > Someone suggested making the evil elf a shadowelf. The only problem I have with that is that it supports the idea of 'all evil elves are shadowelves' but if the PCs don't know shadowelves and you want to use them, it's probably a good way to introduce them... These players are new to Mystara -- although one is developing a Ylari campaign using the Arabian Adventures rules -- so introducing them to Shadow Elves sounds like a good idea. This'll be a background element, though: They'll be more concerned about wresting the sword from goblins and then keeping it out of the hands of the orcs who show up immediately afterwards than figuring out just then who this elf was and why Nicodemus is his enemy. > BTW, Callarii elves are pretty much standard D&D elves, so don't worry too much about their background - whatever you come up with probably fits unless you make them very different from the norm! Nah. All I'm doing is have them be very reclusive as far as most of Midwood is concerned. I want the initial few games to be very human-centered and have the more fantastical elements of Mystara be introduced bit by bit, building up eventually to them seeing Serraine (courtesy of another NPC's secret ...) > You could challenge them with a really dangerous monster that will kill them unless they find the sword, Reaver, and use it against him - perhaps the sword is the only thing that'll kill him for some reason? I can't help but say 'beholder', but it's probably because the PCs IMC are going through lots and lots of beholders at the moment (and fearing every minute of it - ah, it's good to be the DM) ;) If the sword is to be used and it's good particularly nasty against humanoids/goblinoids, then maybe the monster should be such a creature - an ogre would be excellent if the evil Immortal is Jammadaru, for example (he's an ogre Immortal). Perhaps the ogre could even be undead with some, ahem, 'special' powers :) I like this idea, but a variant of this is how I'm going to go, given that Reaver is a demihuman slaying weapon: It's an undead elf who can only be hurt by magical weapons (and this is the only one they've encountered so far, being first-almost-second level characters all around). Since it's something that was put down once and then reactivated by the mystery shadow elf, it's going to need to be something that possesses corpses, maybe even one of Nicodemus' friends, which is how he got involved ... Thanks, all! BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 04:13:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis:WhyAlphatiansocietyoughttobeconsideredChaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1st: what do you think are the defining characteristics of Alphatian law > that gives it an aspect of Justice? I mean, for Thyatis I can easily define > it - laws apply regardless of social status, and punishment is based upon > the crime and level of culpability of the criminal, rather than the social > status of the victim and the perpetrator. The problem in Thyatis comes from > misaplication of the law, not an absence of a concept of justice. What is > it about Alphatian "laws" that give them a just character? > Since the misapplication is usually in favour of those of higher social status or wealth, whilst this is a valid point, the net effect is almost indistinguishable from Alphatian 'law'. Remember the Maxwell boys? The pensioners saw at least some of their money being used to defend the pair of tossers! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:26:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Since the misapplication is usually in favour of those of higher social > status or wealth, whilst this is a valid point, the net effect is almost > indistinguishable from Alphatian 'law'. > Certainly true to a degree - but at least in Thyatis there remains the possibility of justice: there remain some concientious judges (see DDA2 for a Thyatian trial of a Senator), and thus just outcomes. Of course, as I think I pointed out, the misapplication problem is there, and it's no small thing. But in Alphatia, even the concientious judges properly applying the law produce injust outcomes - there isn't a possibility for any other results (what would a "corrupt" judge be like in Alphatia? One who imposed penalties irregardless of social status, based strictly on the severity of the crime commited, thus ignoring the mandates of the law?) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:28:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Here is my take on it: > > Thanks for the good answers, sorry for the previous Calvin-like rant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Maybe hundreds of years at best for the longest lived Egyptian > dynasties -- I am not aware of any dynasty outside Japan that > managed to retain its throne for over a thousand years. You're right. I was confusing "Old Kingdom Period" with "Old Kingdom Dynasty" My bad. > What about the Tudor dynasty in England? It consisted of Henry VII, > Henry VIII, and the three children of Henry VIII. After the death of his > last surviving child Elizabeth, the crown passed to the Stuarts of > Scotland. And Israel (northern kingdom) had a number of "dynasties" > that consisted only of a father and his son, with the son being deposed > a couple of years after he took the throne. I wouldn't consider the Tudors a Dynasty. It has all the wrong connotations for the length of time that they ruled! Plus, isn't the correct term "House of Tudor" ? Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Wrote: > If the character had already taken some of the steps (creating a Dominion, > whelping brats to the point of having a granchild perhaps) before > undertaking the Path, would they have to start over? Well you don't _have_ to be snotty about it. I refer you to page 49, Codex of the Immortals: "The Character must travel ahead in time to three seperate periods and help three different descendants to retain their kingdoms and perpetuate the Dynasty." Now, the "their kingdoms" part is a bit obtuse, *I* think it refers to _the_ kingdom that the PC founded. It just happens to be _the_ kingdom under the desendant's rule, thus making it His (or Her) kingdom. Ahem Now did you have something to say about a Dynasty requiring only children? Or am I still misinterpreting you? > As for the rest of the backround of my question, I refer you to my previous > post. For the rest of the details on what is required of the Path of the > Dynast (as opposed to Egyptian Dynasties), I refer you to WotI Book One > (not Egyptian, or any other, history). Thank you. No need to get snotty James. May I remind you that Mystara is built almost completely upon the Real World, and therefore, using RW background information just may, in fact, help out? Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well you don't _have_ to be snotty about it. > No, I don't. I did appologize for the Calvin-Like rant. > I refer you to page 49, Codex of the Immortals: > Yes, I know - I've read it. To reiterate, the question is regarding not completing the entire process of becoming a Dynast before starting it, but regarding whether some *portions* might be considered "partially completed" or started prior to starting down the road - I.E. if a character has already built up a realm as part and parcel of previous gaming, could the Sponsor "count" that (say the character already has a realm with a capital), at least in part, and perhaps put some other challenge before the character (I.E. instead of creating a realm, since it's already created, better the already existing realm somehow), or must the character begin all over with a new realm. Take the example of Yav that someone brought up. Of course, since Yav pursued the path of the Dynast "accidentally", it's hazy when he started it, but recall that Yav had to, in effect, begin all over again (the entire population of his Kingdom moved off to the Arm of the Immortals for a long period of time, returning later, and everything had to be rebuilt in the Serpent Penninsula) - so, that might imply that because he was already a ruler, the realm he ruled had to be "disassembled" and then built over again. Of course, Yav is an NPC, and we've already stipulated that NPC rulers (like Petra and various former Nithians) might be exempt from parts of the requirements that were written with PCs in mind - but my point & question was that most of the PCs who are most likely to be attracted to challenges along the lines of the Path of the Dynast (challenges requiring realm rulership) will in most cases already be dominion rulers (they're interested in dominion rulership in the first place, so probably undertook that as soon as they could) - so then how would one handle those aspects of the Path that the PC might have already "completed" - not that the entire path was pre-completed, just that various stages along it would have been started. > > Now did you have something to say about a Dynasty requiring > only children? Or am I still misinterpreting you? > No, because actually technically your "decendents" don't have to be of your own blood (they could be "adoptive" or some sort). > May I remind you that Mystara > is built almost completely upon the Real World, and > therefore, using RW background information just may, in > fact, help out? > In some cases it will, but in this case it didn't illuminate any of the requirements of the Path of the Dynast - the Path of the Dynast simply doesn't require what you mentioned as part of the Testimony and Task, which were the parts I was talking about. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:55:21 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-04-30 12:42:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << To reiterate, the question is regarding not completing the entire process of becoming a Dynast before starting it, but regarding whether some *portions* might be considered "partially completed" or started prior to starting down the road - I.E. if a character has already built up a realm as part and parcel of previous gaming, could the Sponsor "count" that (say the character already has a realm with a capital), at least in part, and perhaps put some other challenge before the character (I.E. instead of creating a realm, since it's already created, better the already existing realm somehow), or must the character begin all over with a new realm. >> To expand on my previous answer: the most reasonable thing to do would be to award "partial credit" for those portions of the path already completed but to make the remaining portions that much more challenging as compensation for that advantage. Thus, if you have already ruled a realm for 20+ years and faced off three or more challenges to your rule, then for your remaining challenge (and there should be at least one, no matter how many challenges you have already met) will be EXTREMELY difficult to overcome.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:21:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Someone suggested making the evil elf a shadowelf. The only problem I have with that is that it supports the idea of 'all evil elves are shadowelves' but if the PCs don't know shadowelves and you want to use them, it's probably a good way to introduce them... Your right of couse, not all Shadow Elves are not evil. As a matter of fact those Shadow Elves that follow "the Refuge of Stone" tenements could be considered "lawful" in behaviour. However, the Shadow Elf I suggested was a member of the "hidden" Second Shadow and thus turned his back on the teachings of Rafiel. In addition, this particular one was losing his grip on reality, and Atzanteotl just give him that little extra push. > You could also use Thanatos (always plotting new schemes), or an interesting Immortal might be Jammadaru, since he's the Immortal or vengeance - he seems to right wrongs, but does so by making an even greater and nastier evil... Still, he's not the most crafty Immortal around, but there are reasons why he might listen to wronged Traladarans. I never thought of Jammudaru, but the only problem I would have in using this Immortal is the fact that he is associated with humanoids (well, ogres anyway). As "humanoids" were the cause of the ending of the Traldars Golden Age, Traladarans would never consider turning to a "humanoid" Immortal for help. I liked the idea of an undead form though . Another thought for the undead form could be a gnoll chieftan (with additional powers of course) from the "Beastman" invasion of BC1000. Interesting historical tie there.... :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:46:56 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Technique for building NPCs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Beau wrote: >Thank you! My technique for building NPCs is taken from Dragon #184, >incidentally, and C.M. Cline's "7-Sentence NPC" technique. And, yeah, >everyone should feel free to use him. (It's not like he's going to live >forever in my campaign ...) > I'm also following the advice of the "Dungeoncraft" columnist -- >forgot >his name -- and giving every major NPC a secret. Just as Nicodemus has >several (why he's in Midwood and who his apprentice really is), two of the >characters (brothers) are destined to discover they've got a half-sister >they never knew about, who happens to have followed in her mother's >footsteps and is a rather nasty agent of the Iron Ring in Krakatos ... Dear Beau, I would like to ask you whether you could explai about the technique used to create this NPC. I am currently looking for good ways to develop NPC (even Inn keepers in small towns who might be important) to the PCs, but I do find it difficult to come up with different ideas for the NPCs. Could you please be so kind as to inform me on your technique? Thanks a lot, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:30:15 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0=E9=EC=EF_=F9=E7=ED?= Subject: Re: A Single Joke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This can also be listen to in Beverly Hills.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Caroletti [SMTP:Scarole@TIN.IT] Sent: =E4 =E0=F4=F8=E9=EC 27 2000 19:07 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] A Single Joke Only in Alphatia you have the possibility to listen to a dialogue like this: "Oh, dear, my sons and your sons have just beaten up our sons!" Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: = http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:06:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Paths to Immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > Yav did not consciously walk the Path of the Dynast, but, by > fulfilling its requirements, he made it. This got me thinking and after several hours of looking stuff up, I am still of the mind that the PC being sponsored chooses the path. The Immortal Sponsor just oversees it. True, each sphere (except Entropy as far as I'm aware) has a favoured Path, but this just requires the minimum xp the PC must earn during his/her Path to be lowered (from 600,000 xp to 400,000 xp). This means that Yav MUST have consciously chosen the path of Dynast when he met his Sponsor. Can anyone clarify the subject for me? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:12:45 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Questions on a druid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, after the "Crusade question" which seemed to have a rather big discussion, I have another question. In the campaign I am playing now there is a PC who plays a druid (a lot of not so commen pc-classes are played in this campaign, which I think is a bit of a shame). Now I would like for this druid to be contacted by an Immortal (see if I can get him to do assignments for this Immortal and maybe get him involved in the Crusade this way). I choose the druid since he has a strong religious feeling anyway, but I am not sure which Immortal I can use for this little plan. All I know it has to be an Immortal who is fairly close to nature, but I also would like to have for him/her to have something to do with combat (this way it would be easier to get the druid involved in the Crusade). I hope that the druid will listen to the Immortal and will take the other PCs on a trip for some quest (I bought Tome of Magic so I could give him some quest-spells which would be fun). Does anyone know which Immortal I can use for this, and do you think this can be done? Thanks. Regards, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 01:37:42 +1000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: anakin Subject: Re: Questions on a druid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not sure if it is suitable for your campaign but I used protius in similat capacity in my campaign. anakin Max Monas wrote: > Hi everyone, > > after the "Crusade question" which seemed to have a rather big discussion, I > have another question. In the campaign I am playing now there is a PC who > plays a druid (a lot of not so commen pc-classes are played in this > campaign, which I think is a bit of a shame). Now I would like for this > druid to be contacted by an Immortal (see if I can get him to do assignments > for this Immortal and maybe get him involved in the Crusade this way). I > choose the druid since he has a strong religious feeling anyway, but I am > not sure which Immortal I can use for this little plan. All I know it has to > be an Immortal who is fairly close to nature, but I also would like to have > for him/her to have something to do with combat (this way it would be easier > to get the druid involved in the Crusade). I hope that the druid will listen > to the Immortal and will take the other PCs on a trip for some quest (I > bought Tome of Magic so I could give him some quest-spells which would be > fun). Does anyone know which Immortal I can use for this, and do you think > this can be done? > Thanks. > Regards, > > Max > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Don't just do something- Stand There All Pigs fed and ready to fly Each day is better than the next! ICQ# 12697398 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:14:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Questions on a druid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now I would like for this druid to be contacted by an Immortal (see if I can > get him to do assignments for this Immortal and maybe get him involved in the > Crusade this way). I choose the druid since he has a strong religious feeling > anyway, but I am not sure which Immortal I can use for this little plan. All I > know it has to be an Immortal who is fairly close to nature, but I also would > like to have for him/her to have something to do with combat (this way it > would be easier to get the druid involved in the Crusade). I hope that the > druid will listen to the Immortal and will take the other PCs on a trip for some > quest (I bought Tome of Magic so I could give him some quest-spells which > would be fun). Does anyone know which Immortal I can use for this, and do > you think this can be done? Personally, I can see a problem straight away. Druids are all about keeping the balance of nature, and thus their Immortals are not particularly warlike. However, if your "chosen foe" (I wish I knew a bit more about your campaign - like who you wish to launch these Crusades against, the makeup of your PC party etc.) is harming the natural balance of things then Druidic Immortals would demand that something is done. My choice for this would be Ouranos, whose main sphere of interest is the protection of Mystara in general, not just forests and their inhabitants. The hook could be that your "chosen foe" has something that could harm the planet in some (major) way. This could range from developing a doomsday-like device (like the Glantrians) to possessing an artifact or item that houses an imprisoned Immortal whose activation (or similar event) would set this Immortal free to stomp the Prime Plane. Alternatively, I suppose that the Immortal that has the largest following in "chosen place" could have said or done something to the Druidic Immortal to REALLY upset him/her (although I'd reserve this hook for clerics more than druids). In any event, the "reason" that Ouranos (or any other Druidic Immortal for that matter) would order something like a Crusade would have to be something very serious indeed. If Ouranos doesn't suit you then try either Terra, Ordana, or Zirchev, who would be other choices I'd consider. Have fun :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:25:46 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Paths to Immortality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed If I remember correctly, each sphere has a specific Path (plus the Path of the Conqueror, which can apparently be taken by humanoids in any Sphere). The reduced XP requirements are for characters of the Sphere's favored class(es, if you're using the WOTI rules rather than the Cyclopedia). >From: Phillip Jones >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: [MYSTARA] Paths to Immortality >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:06:22 +0100 > >Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > > Yav did not consciously walk the Path of the Dynast, but, by > > fulfilling its requirements, he made it. > >This got me thinking and after several hours of looking stuff up, I am >still >of the mind that the PC being sponsored chooses the path. The Immortal >Sponsor just oversees it. True, each sphere (except Entropy as far as I'm >aware) has a favoured Path, but this just requires the minimum xp the PC >must earn during his/her Path to be lowered (from 600,000 xp to 400,000 >xp). > >This means that Yav MUST have consciously chosen the path of Dynast when he >met his Sponsor. Can anyone clarify the subject for me? > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis:WhyAlphatiansocietyoughttobeconsideredChaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia and Thyatis:WhyAlphatiansocietyoughttobeconsideredChaotic Evil > > > > Well, they certainly aren't completely chaotic as you implied as they > *do* have laws and they do have a society - Alphatia is not an anarchy, but > it is a very liberalistic society << > > Huh? > > "Liberalistic" for whom? Maybe by "liberal" he means like in the modern term...degenerate...immoral... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No fears. I didn't take it personally. There are many quotations that people use which they believe honestly to be historical fact. Believe me, I've been guilty of quite a few myself. But whenever one crops up, it is good to squash it. That particular quote paints individuals in a negative light, unfairly. ----- Original Message ----- From: thibault sarlat > yea maybe i got too zealous about the quotation thing. Jeff, please do not > regard it as an attack.it's just that i am 100% sure of the thing. but as you > say there are many thing dating from that period that can't be counted as > certain. But Umberto eco makes authority on the matter that' s why i tend to > think that he is right. > no hard feeling i hope. > I humbly appologize to you. > > thibault ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You fail to offer a reliable source for the quote. Again, there is simply no historical proof that this was ever said by the Pope or anyone having anything to do with the Pope. It is quoted often enough by anti-Catholics, despite its dubious origin. Unless you wish to offer a reliable source, I would suggest not continuing the discussion here. Feel free to email me privately, as the subject has gotten far off topic. ----- Original Message ----- From: Andr�s Piquer Otero To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > Hi, > > wow, the "dispute quotation" is in a middle ages chronicle... I agree in > chronicles of the time being far away from objective and, many times, > putting words in the mouths of characters. The only thing we can know is > that, for many many people of the Middle Ages after the Albigensian Crusade, > that was the "official version", which does not have to be the true one... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:51:56 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Ordeals Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have not here given a reliable source for the quote. You, and the newsgroup post you hope to emply, go into several side topics, but there is not one reliable source that the Pope (or his legate) said this. Saying that you doubt most people would have had problems with it, does not constitute proof. Feel free to continue this discussion off list. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederic Ferro To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:20 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Ordeals Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, jdaly wrote: > > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. > > No, there is, > see http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~medieval/mediev-l/msg00608.html > > The Pope was never "accused" (although according to the Catholic > Encylopedia Innocent III said that "Cathars are worse than Saracens"). The > Legate Arnaud Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, is reported to have uttered the > sentence on July 22 1209 and I doubt most people from the Middle Ages > would have had problems with it. After all the ideas of "Ordalie" > (iudicium Dei or ordeal) and Divine Providence give a different meaning to > it. Even if you deny the reliability of the Cistercian Pierre Cesaire, you > should wonder *why* he would have fabricated this story while (a) he was > sympathetic to the cause of the Crusaders and (b) belonged to the same > Monastic Order as Arnaud Amaury! > > ObMystara: > Which countries use Duels or Ordeals in their justice? > > Heldannic Knights must use the Judgement of Vanya. > Ylaris may have "mubahala" or "mu'ba'hala" ("prayer duels") like Real > World Muslims but only between different Ylari factions (Kin and > Preceptors). > > ff > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:53:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Albigensians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You still have not provided a reliable source. Attacking me does not prove your point, and it makes you look silly. Feel free to continue the discussion over private email. ----- Original Message ----- From: thibault sarlat To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > excuse me , but when you will be one of the most famous professor of medieval > history , specialized in the religious matter ,and when you would have had > published one of the best selling book about this period (even if it is a > novel), when you would be one of the brightest man of the century, then i would > think that YOU are right over Umberto Eco. > He might be wrong on a lot of thing , but certainly not about this. > > jdaly a �crit: > > > "Novelist" doesn't constitute a reliable historical source. Neither do the > > words "he was pretty sure". > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: thibault sarlat > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:53 AM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > > > The famous novelist Umberto Eco spoke about this and he seem pretty sure > > that > > > those words were spoken by the legate... > > > > > > jdaly a �crit: > > > > > > > Actually, there is no reliable source that the words you ascribe to the > > > > Legate of the Pope, or to the Pope himself, were ever spoken. Despite > > this, > > > > there are plenty of anti-Catholics who like to bring it up. Feel free > > to > > > > discuss with me offline. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Dave Keyser > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:10 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Albigensians > > > > > > > > > Frederic Ferro wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > > > > Just a side question - what was the Albagensian Crusade? I've > > never > > > > heard > > > > > > > of that one before - at least by that name. > > > > > > > > > > > > A dualistic gnostic heresy called "Catharism" became widespread in > > > > > > Southern France. They were also called "Albigensians" because of the > > > > city > > > > > > of Albi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Around 1210, the Pope launched a Crusade againt the Cathars and > > > > > > the Cathars were slaughtered until extinction (in Beziers, when > > asked > > > > "Who > > > > > > should we spare?", the Legate of the Pope answered "Slay them all, > > God > > > > > > will sort them out"). > > > > > > > > > > Actually, he ordered everyone in the city to be slaughtered. When a > > > > > subordinate made a moral objection, that there were Catholics as well > > > > > Albigensians in the city, his reply in the closest translation to > > English > > > > > was, "Slay them all, God will know His own." > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > > Find Local Players: > > http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > -- > > > Thibault Sarlat > > > ICQ 16622177. > > > My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr > > > Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi > > > Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, > > > rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -- > Thibault Sarlat > ICQ 16622177. > My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr > Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi > Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, > rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Technique for building NPCs In-Reply-To: <20000430094656.62434.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:46 4/30/00 CEST, Max wrote: >I would like to ask you whether you could explai about the technique used to >create this NPC. I am currently looking for good ways to develop NPC (even >Inn keepers in small towns who might be important) to the PCs, but I do find >it difficult to come up with different ideas for the NPCs. Could you please >be so kind as to inform me on your technique? Like I said, I'm lifting from two "Dragon" magazine articles, the first and primary being #184 and C.M. Cline's article "The 7-Sentence NPC." In the article he advises that you describe seven aspects of the character in (roughly) a sentence each. (Obviously, for more complex characters, some of these descriptions will be expanded: 1) Occupation and History -- "Serge Varli is the innkeeper of Midwood's Shady Dragon Inn, having bought the business almost 20 years ago." 2) Physical description -- "He is a tall, broad-shouldered man with a neatly trimmed black beard and a growing belly." 3) Attributes and skills (exceptional ones only) -- "Serge is legendary for being able to eat or drink nearly anything without dimming his robust health (Constitution 17) and his skills as a chef made those who knew him back in Krakatos that he was destined to be the chef for a noble or for some exclusive restaurant." 4) Values and motivations -- "He is devoted to his family and, surprising for someone in his position, his privacy." 5) Interactions with others -- "Direct to the point of bluntness with commoners, Serge is polite but not fawning with those he believes to be above his station (namely, nobles, clerics of the Church of Traladara and wizards)." 6) Useful knowledge -- "Making the most of his self-imposed exile to Midwood, he is a master of turning available foodstuffs into fine cuisine and knows more about local game than all but the greatest hunters, trappers and fishermen." 7) Distinguishing feature -- "Serge's one concession to vanity is his beard, which he is forever checking in reflections and fussing over." In addition to the above -- which can be fleshed out on the fly but form a rounded-enough character for 90 percent of NPCs -- I also follow the advice of the new "Dungeoncraft" column from the "Dragon" and give major NPCs a secret. Since Serge is the father of two of the player characters, all of whom I'm trying to give substantial ties to the setting, he gets one: "Serge fled Krakatos with his new bride Stefana to save her from the clutches of his old flame, whom he had belatedly discovered was an up-and-coming member of the Iron Ring. Unfortunately, he didn't and doesn't know that she was also pregnant with his child, and that his daughter has followed in her mother's footsteps and knows all about him and his new family from Iron Ring spies." Quick and dirty NPC generation, with details that matter to play, but nothing that doesn't -- full stats would be a waste of time to roll up for him, so why bother? The only other stat I attach is an alignment, which in Serge's cases is Neutral Good. I keep all this info in a growing "Midwood" document on my PC and print out a new copy when I DM. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:08:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society ought to be considered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "Liberalistic" for whom? > > Maybe by "liberal" he means like in the modern > term...degenerate...immoral... > Well, he might like "libertine" better than those descriptions. And "amoral" tends to apply more than "immoral" (the Alphatians have no conception of morality, and don't think such considerations are important anyhow - "morality is for suckers" could be a motto for their money, if Alphatia Uber Alles wasn't already it). But I guess it could be argued that those are merely semantic destinctions. Anyhow, "libertine" sounds at least slightly better, I guess. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:24:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Questions on a druid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max Monas wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > after the "Crusade question" which seemed to have a rather big discussion, I > have another question. In the campaign I am playing now there is a PC who > plays a druid (a lot of not so commen pc-classes are played in this > campaign, which I think is a bit of a shame). Now I would like for this > druid to be contacted by an Immortal (see if I can get him to do assignments > for this Immortal and maybe get him involved in the Crusade this way). I > choose the druid since he has a strong religious feeling anyway, but I am > not sure which Immortal I can use for this little plan. All I know it has to > be an Immortal who is fairly close to nature, but I also would like to have > for him/her to have something to do with combat (this way it would be easier > to get the druid involved in the Crusade). I hope that the druid will listen > to the Immortal and will take the other PCs on a trip for some quest (I > bought Tome of Magic so I could give him some quest-spells which would be > fun). Does anyone know which Immortal I can use for this, and do you think > this can be done? > Thanks. > Regards, > > Max > I'd recommend using Diulanna. While nature isn't actually within her portfolio, she is quite close to nature, has druids in her priesthood (in Robrenn, but she would be part of the druidic pantheon in the Thyatian lands too), and has much to do with combat, being a goddess of strong willed heroes. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 01:13:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:35:53 James Ruhland wrote: >> >> Well, they certainly aren't completely chaotic as you implied as they >*do* have laws and they do have a society - Alphatia is not an anarchy, but >it is a very liberalistic society << > >Huh? > >"Liberalistic" for whom? Not for the Servile base (70+% of the population), >only for the Elect, the Aristocracy - and the same might be said of Grazzt >or Yeenughu in the Abyss or Drow Priestesses in Drow regimes - their >societies allow them to do whatever they want, too, including dispatch or >otherwise use those they are more powerful than with imputity and total >freedom. As for the vast majority of Alphatian society, they are "free" >only in the same sense that a Manes is "free" or a Drow slave is "free" - >they're free to do whatever they can get away with without being caught, >but otherwise exist to serve, and those societies (yes, they have "social >orders" of sorts, too, and even "laws" of sorts) are set up to insure that >status quo is maintained - just as in Alphatia (and, yes, everything I've >said has a basis in DotE - if you haven't encountered it there, as you said >in a previous message, it isn't because it isn't there). > >And yes, take Alphatia's Laws. As I pointed out, they are not established >to create a sense of justice or punish the wicked more than the innocent: >they are set up to 1) maintain the status quo (as it explicitly says on >p.18, under "Law", in the DotE Player's Guide to Alphatia) and 2) insure >that the weak (non-nobles) are punished harshly for offending the >master-class (aristocrats), while the master class usually isn't "punished" >as such but merely required to minimally comphensate for the harms they >cause (and, in the case of slaves, the law mandates no punishment for doing >whatever they please to them - though they might owe the owner for damaging >their property). Similarly motivated "laws" are enfourced in >Menzoberranzan. > Would you care to mention a nation or empire of Mystara in which slaves are treated well? They aren't in Alphatia, but is it surprising? They are slaves - slaves are treated 'well' anywhere, including Thyatis. Law in Thyatis being just? Ahem! Eusebius forcing the poor to migrate: Fair and just? Thincol forcing Stefania to marry an Ostlander prince, whom she hates so much that she kills him: Fair and just (and don't tell me that Thincol wasn't aware, please)? Thincol grabbing the throne and marrying the Emperor's daughter, then forgetting about her - no romance there (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Thincol had killed old Gabrionus himself and blamed it on those nasty Alpahtians). Senators stealing the funds for bread for the poor in WOTI (yes, I know you hate that, but don't forget that Allston wrote both DOTE which established the Thyatis that you like, and WOTI which you don't like). The way I see it, one empire (Thyatis) has laws that seem fair but don't work or are constantly abused or not followed, and the other (Alphatia) has a few laws that aren't just (because there is one set for the aristocracy and one set for the rest - if just one of those would apply to all it would be alright). In either case, something is wrong. I prefer Alphatia's way, because while it is not just, because while the commoners are still treated unjustly by the aristocracy, at least they aren't *also* burdened by lots of other laws that don't work either! >> >> Except that you didn't comment on those different nations within the >empire - instead you made gross generalizations about the entire empire as >such. << >> >I followed DotE's overview of Alphatia. You might not like it, and thus >consider it a "gross generalization" to be ignored, but there you have it. > >Of course, it is true that laws can vary all over Alphatia, and vary from >day to day, because the whims of the rulers of Alphatia have the force of >absolute law, just like the whims of the rulers of various planes in the >Abyss. So in short you claim that a society not based entirely on strictly maintained laws is automatically corrupt and evil - I'm sure the elves would be sorry to hear that! >> >> > What I really don't understand is why you insist on bringing this up >every so often? << > >So we can have interesting discussions such as this one. > Well, that makes one of us who thinks so! This is an undead thread - it will go nowhere postive. I learned that the first time we had it... >Well, here's a couple questions - > >1st: what do you think are the defining characteristics of Alphatian law >that gives it an aspect of Justice? I mean, for Thyatis I can easily define >it - laws apply regardless of social status, and punishment is based upon >the crime and level of culpability of the criminal, rather than the social >status of the victim and the perpetrator. The problem in Thyatis comes from >misaplication of the law, not an absence of a concept of justice. What is >it about Alphatian "laws" that give them a just character? > Alphatia has few laws, and I've already said that they aren't just! It's the major flaw of Alphatia that they treat commoners so poorly, but then that would be the case for most societies on Mystara. Even in goody little Karameikos, the Thyatians are clearly advantaged, while the original Traladaran population has few opportunities, yet I don't hear you complain about something being wrong here or that Karameikos is an 'evil' society (though Caroletti suggested it :) ) Look at my examples above for my opinion on Thyatis' so-called 'fair and just' laws! >2nd: What is it about Alphatian society that is absent from other Mystaran >societies and admirable, or finds a more admirable expression in Alphatia >than elsewhere? Remembering that the liberty (or, rather, freedom) to do >whatever one wants is, in Alphatia, limited to a minority proportion of the >population (very opressive restrictions apply to the vast majority of the >people, enforced by Imperial Law). > So at the same time you say that freedom is whatever somebody wants it to be, but at the same time you deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners ? Personally, I think they value the 'freedom' of Alphatia as much as the aristocrats do. They won't get that freedom to the extent that the aristocracy will, no, but I still think they value it. Please stop this, James! It's not going anywhere and we're just repeating ourselves. - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 02:27:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:11:56 Beau Yarbrough wrote: >At 02:35 4/30/00 +0100, The Stalker wrote: > > Thanks for everyone's feedback. With your help, I think I've got it >narrowed down to what I want! > >>Good job! Nicodemus is an excellent NPC - I might stea... borrow him >myself, if I feel the need :) > > Thank you! My technique for building NPCs is taken from Dragon #184, >incidentally, and C.M. Cline's "7-Sentence NPC" technique. And, yeah, >everyone should feel free to use him. (It's not like he's going to live >forever in my campaign ...) > I'm also following the advice of the "Dungeoncraft" columnist -- forgot >his name -- and giving every major NPC a secret. Just as Nicodemus has >several (why he's in Midwood and who his apprentice really is), two of the >characters (brothers) are destined to discover they've got a half-sister >they never knew about, who happens to have followed in her mother's >footsteps and is a rather nasty agent of the Iron Ring in Krakatos ... > Interesting ideas! Kick your players for me if they don't appreciate them ;) >> ... an interesting Immortal might be Jammadaru, since he's the Immortal >or vengeance - he seems to right wrongs, but does so by making an even >greater and nastier evil... Still, he's not the most crafty Immortal >around, but there are reasons why he might listen to wronged Traladarans. > > I don't have WotI -- no one's selling it on Ebay for a reasonable amount > Hmmm, I recently bought it at a reasonable price from (Canadian), but it doesn't seem they have it anymore. Look around on Shawn's (dnd.starflung.com) or Thibault's (www.mystara.com.bi) sites - they both have rather decent links to good online stores. >-- so I was working off the Immortals list in KKoA. Jammadaru sounds good, >though: Reaver is a weapon that works best in the hands of humanoids and >eventually turns its wielder into one. > Then you should definitely put it in the hands of an enemy! I hate it when good weapons lie around unused by the enemies who have them, until the PCs kill the enemies and find them! >> Someone suggested making the evil elf a shadowelf. The only problem I >have with that is that it supports the idea of 'all evil elves are >shadowelves' but if the PCs don't know shadowelves and you want to use >them, it's probably a good way to introduce them... > > These players are new to Mystara -- although one is developing a Ylari >campaign using the Arabian Adventures rules -- so introducing them to >Shadow Elves sounds like a good idea. This'll be a background element, >though: They'll be more concerned about wresting the sword from goblins and >then keeping it out of the hands of the orcs who show up immediately >afterwards than figuring out just then who this elf was and why Nicodemus >is his enemy. > Sounds like you got it under control to me. >> BTW, Callarii elves are pretty much standard D&D elves, so don't worry >too much about their background - whatever you come up with probably fits >unless you make them very different from the norm! > > Nah. All I'm doing is have them be very reclusive as far as most of >Midwood is concerned. I want the initial few games to be very >human-centered and have the more fantastical elements of Mystara be >introduced bit by bit, building up eventually to them seeing Serraine >(courtesy of another NPC's secret ...) > IIRC, the Callarii elves are more typical elves who are at least somewhat open to the humans around them, while the Vyalia are the more reclusive ones (in Karameikos anyway), but you can look this up yourself if you have K:KoA >> You could challenge them with a really dangerous monster that will kill >them unless they find the sword, Reaver, and use it against him - perhaps >the sword is the only thing that'll kill him for some reason? I can't help >but say 'beholder', but it's probably because the PCs IMC are going through >lots and lots of beholders at the moment (and fearing every minute of it - >ah, it's good to be the DM) ;) If the sword is to be used and it's good >particularly nasty against humanoids/goblinoids, then maybe the monster >should be such a creature - an ogre would be excellent if the evil Immortal >is Jammadaru, for example (he's an ogre Immortal). Perhaps the ogre could >even be undead with some, ahem, 'special' powers :) > > I like this idea, but a variant of this is how I'm going to go, given that >Reaver is a demihuman slaying weapon: It's an undead elf who can only be >hurt by magical weapons (and this is the only one they've encountered so >far, being first-almost-second level characters all around). > Since it's something that was put down once and then reactivated by the >mystery shadow elf, it's going to need to be something that possesses >corpses, maybe even one of Nicodemus' friends, which is how he got involved >... Oh, in that case you simply *must* consider a 'wyrd'! It's an undead spirit that's possessed the body of an elf and which typically lives in ruins and forests. Sound good? It's in the Mystara MC (p.120) and there is even a lesser and greater version of the monster. If you don't have the MC just ask again - you probably won't need all the details anyway! - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 02:32:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:26:38 James Ruhland wrote: >> > >> Since the misapplication is usually in favour of those of higher social >> status or wealth, whilst this is a valid point, the net effect is almost >> indistinguishable from Alphatian 'law'. >> >Certainly true to a degree - but at least in Thyatis there remains the >possibility of justice: there remain some concientious judges (see DDA2 for >a Thyatian trial of a Senator), and thus just outcomes. Of course, as I >think I pointed out, the misapplication problem is there, and it's no small >thing. > >But in Alphatia, even the concientious judges properly applying the law >produce injust outcomes - there isn't a possibility for any other results >(what would a "corrupt" judge be like in Alphatia? One who imposed >penalties irregardless of social status, based strictly on the severity of >the crime commited, thus ignoring the mandates of the law?) > You are still forgetting that another aristocrat can challenge the offender to a duel - very little is required for an aristocrat to be allowed to do this, and if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel will be quite predictable... In 959 AC several archmages were willing to challenge Emperor Tylion IV just to get rid of him, for example - that couldn't happen in Thyatis... - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:38:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:27 5/1/00 +0100, the mind-reading Stalker wrote: >Hmmm, I recently bought it at a reasonable price from (Canadian), but it doesn't seem they have it anymore. Look around on Shawn's (dnd.starflung.com) or Thibault's (www.mystara.com.bi) sites - they both have rather decent links to good online stores. I've tried Cyberdungeon. I'll check their links lists. >Then you should definitely put it in the hands of an enemy! I hate it when good weapons lie around unused by the enemies who have them, until the PCs kill the enemies and find them! Oh, yeah. It's going to be found by the goblins before the PCs get there, and they have to take it from them and then use it against the orcs and the big evil trapped in the dungeons with them. >IIRC, the Callarii elves are more typical elves who are at least somewhat open to the humans around them, while the Vyalia are the more reclusive ones (in Karameikos anyway), but you can look this up yourself if you have K:KoA Oh, yeah, I know. They'll be inclined to investigate why Midwood is isolated once they start having normal contact with elves after their Shearing. >Oh, in that case you simply *must* consider a 'wyrd'! It's an undead spirit that's possessed the body of an elf and which typically lives in ruins and forests. Sound good? It's in the Mystara MC (p.120) and there is even a lesser and greater version of the monster. If you don't have the MC just ask again - you probably won't need all the details anyway! You read my mind! That's exactly what I'm going to use. I figure it's the same entity in two different elves from different eras, with the last time it just being sealed up inside when Nicodemus couldn't bear to kill his friend. You guys have been a great deal of help! Thanks! BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 02:46:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society ought tobeconsidered Chaotic Evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:08:43 James Ruhland wrote: >> > "Liberalistic" for whom? >> >> Maybe by "liberal" he means like in the modern >> term...degenerate...immoral... >> >Well, he might like "libertine" better than those descriptions. >And "amoral" tends to apply more than "immoral" (the Alphatians have no >conception of morality, and don't think such considerations are important >anyhow - "morality is for suckers" could be a motto for their money, if >Alphatia Uber Alles wasn't already it). I see it just the opposite way: The Alphatians might have an even stronger morality than most, and if so they need no laws to guide them - they would already know what's right and wrong! That's the philosophy anyway, and of course it doesn't always work (or perhaps only rarely), but it does mean that the responsibility of making their society a good one lies very much in the hands of the individual. >But I guess it could be argued that those are merely semantic destinctions. >Anyhow, "libertine" sounds at least slightly better, I guess. > I was thinking of a system of government that exists only to prevent utter chaos and anarchy - strict laws and strong authorities are undesired and people are left to find the basis for a good society themselves... - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:13:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have yet to see a flexible game that really works. > > How odd. D&D is the only class-based game I play, the least > flexible. Yet all the others seem to work just fine. Often better. Well, D&D is the best for encouraging teamwork. Every other game I have seen lacks that aspect, and I like that part of D&D - everyone has there place, no matter what, simply because a mage cannot do the job of a fighter (and vice versa). Without classes the lines are less blurred, to the point where there are no lines, and then some players end up sidelined. Depends on how you define "better". If better is playing whatever you want, unrestricted by a game system, than yeah, D&D is probably one of the worst choices you could make. But D&D (and perhaps Shadowrun) are the only two game systems that really foster cooperation and ensure that everyone has a good time. Everything is IMO, of course. Personal preference and all that. I admit to having a tendency to define characters by what they can do, and I like it when everyone has a character who does something different. It makes the successful adventure, when everyone worked together, that much more satisfying for me. Playing stuff like Cthulhu everyone just wanders along, loses a few SAN points, and eventually solves the adventure. It all seems rather... bland... to me. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:22:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is a silly argument. If a GM doesn't control character creation, they > don't > have control of their game. I allow people to design characters of their > choosing > within reason. I do not allow people to have characters that would conflict > with > the current gaming group (been there, done that, won't do it again). If I, > as GM, > am not involved in every phase of character development I can't create > interesting > stories and surprises from the background of the characters. Well, yeah. But then, there is involvement and there is involvement. For example - I've recently started up a Red Steel campaign (again) and I did say that at least half the party had to be Swashbucklers, and everyone had to take the panache proficiency (unless they had a damn good excuse). And no truly weird races (that being said, I allowed someone to play an adaptor). But that was it. What I mean by policing is when you have to go over the character and strip out nifties that you reckon are unbalancing and generally detrimental. Playing a human mage is OK, playing a human mage min maxed to the limit with Players Option is probably not in my book. > P.S. I have designed such a system as you describe, and it has been working > nicely for > the last eight years. I am into my eighth month of a Star Wars game based in > the system > and the third month of a Mystara game and things are working very nicely. > There is no > hint of an "arms race" as you suggest. Everyone has their areas of > capability, and no one > is interested in stepping on each others toes... For details see my web page > at > http://borigon-mystara.homepage.com . Glad it worked for you. I ran Star Wars for quite a while quite successfully. But eventually it got into a contest as to who could manage to get the highest lightsaber or blaster skill, and it demoralised me somewhat. There was one guy who was supposed to be playing a technician, so plenty of opportunities to use a few technical skills were put into the adventures (I wrote a whole system of my own to let him play around with salvaging bits of starfighters - a sort of huge Shadowrunesque list of bits and bobs you could glue together, for example) but sadly at the end he had a couple of technical skills around 4D or 5D and blaster 11D and increasing rapidly. And it all started because one of the other players wanted to play a sharpshooter sort of guy, with high combat skills, and everyone wanted to be like him. And then of course he had to keep ahead of everyone else, and... I was not impressed. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:28:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I see your point entirely. I really don't like the AD&D/D&D system. I especially dislike the combat system. However, it offers the most richest resource >material out there. Mmm. I hope that D&D3 will revamp the combat system somewhat, it is showing its age. But classes should not be sacrificed on the altar of modernisation, THAC0 and AC should be... It would be nice to see a class based system that had a good combat system. (And I hope something is done about thief skills - I mean, the straight percentages is about as bad a way of implementing thief skills as I can think of). > However, there are some inherent restrictions within Mystara (some derived from OD&D itself) that I enforce for a Mystara/GURPS or Mystara/AD&D2. I shall do the same for Mystara/D&D3. I have been stung so much with multiclassing I have pretty well got rid of it altogether. Instead everyone advances on the xp table of a fighter, and whenever they advance a level they can choose what class they put it in. So, your 1st level fighter upon reaching level 2 can choose to become a level 2 fighter, or a F1 and something else at level one. It means that at higher level the multiclassers are punished. Under the standard system a multiclassed character is only one or two levels below his single classed brethren, and as a result is infinitely more powerful. This way you could either play a 6/6 fighter mage, or a level 12 mage - which is quite a difference. (No one understood that I bet - it is a bit garbled isn't it :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:39:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. In-Reply-To: <002a01bfb314$e745eaa0$9240d4d4@rob2> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:28 5/1/00 +0100, Rob Fry wrote: >Mmm. I hope that D&D3 will revamp the combat system somewhat, it is showing >its age. More than somewhat. Just glancing over the new combat changes at Eric Noah's 3E News site, I was struck over and over again by a feeling that THIS is how it should have been done all along. More intuitive, faster-flowing and yet more realistic and exciting ... I can't wait. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:38:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society ought tobeconsidered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I see it just the opposite way: The Alphatians might have an even stronger morality than most, and if so they need no laws to guide them - they would already know what's right and wrong! That's the philosophy anyway, and of course it doesn't always work (or perhaps only rarely), but it does mean that the responsibility of making their society a good one lies very much in the hands of the individual. Power and Magic are pretty similar terms - a system in which your social standing and rights (in particular) are determined by how much power you wield would be chaotic evil almost by definition. Imagine if Alphatia had the same style of government and justice system, but respected physical prowess instead of magic. It would be a classic might is right scenario. Those who could beat seven shades of **** out of their lesser peers would be the elite ruling class - and have the backing of the law. Sure, some people could be noble warriors, goodly aligned, who look after those less fortunate than themselves. But with a society based on that basic principle (raw power above all),would that sort of person be common? On the contrary, the evidence is pretty well against it. The attitude of the "standard Alphatian" if there is such a thing seems to range through the pity/arrogance/contempt spectrum for their mundane counterparts. > I was thinking of a system of government that exists only to prevent utter chaos and anarchy - strict laws and strong authorities are undesired and people are left to find the basis for a good society themselves... It would be nice - a sort of eudaimonic utopia. And it is a fantasy world, after all. Perhaps amongst the mages it really is a eudaimonic utopia. Everyone striving to achieve their full potential, the freedom to do it, no shortage of wealth or even influence should the individual so wish it... Nice. But the problem is - what about the unwashed majority who have no potential to fulfill (ie are not wizards?). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:40:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are still forgetting that another aristocrat can challenge the offender to a duel - very little is required for an aristocrat to be allowed to do this, and if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel will be quite predictable... In 959 AC several archmages were willing to challenge Emperor Tylion IV just to get rid of him, for example - that couldn't happen in Thyatis... Well, that truly is Chaotic Evil. As long as you can turn the other guy into a snowball and throw him on a fire, you can do whatever you want (and even the Emperor is not immune). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:50:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. In-Reply-To: <005201bfb316$a7da0980$9240d4d4@rob2> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:40 5/1/00 +0100, Rob Fry wrote: >> You are still forgetting that another aristocrat can challenge the >offender to a duel - very little is required for an aristocrat to be allowed >to do this, and if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel >will be quite predictable... In 959 AC several archmages were willing to >challenge Emperor Tylion IV just to get rid of him, for example - that >couldn't happen in Thyatis... > >Well, that truly is Chaotic Evil. As long as you can turn the other guy >into a snowball and throw him on a fire, you can do whatever you want (and >even the Emperor is not immune). Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. And implementation of such a system -- a more bloody version of impeachment, essentially -- doesn't have to be chaotic either. As Clint Eastwood has said, "some folks just need killin'." BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 03:56:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would you care to mention a nation or empire of Mystara in which slaves are treated well? They aren't in Alphatia, but is it surprising? They are slaves - slaves are treated 'well' anywhere, including Thyatis. > Law in Thyatis being just? Ahem! Eusebius forcing the poor to migrate: Fair and just? Thincol forcing Stefania to marry an Ostlander prince, whom she hates so much that she kills him: Fair and just (and don't tell me that Thincol wasn't aware, please)? Thincol grabbing the throne and marrying the Emperor's daughter, then forgetting about her - no romance there (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Thincol had killed old Gabrionus himself and blamed it on those nasty Alpahtians). Senators stealing the funds for bread for the poor in WOTI (yes, I know you hate that, but don't forget that Allston wrote both DOTE which established the Thyatis that you like, and WOTI which you don't like). > The way I see it, one empire (Thyatis) has laws that seem fair but don't work or are constantly abused or not followed, and the other (Alphatia) has a few laws that aren't just (because there is one set for the aristocracy and one set for the rest - if just one of those would apply to all it would be alright). In either case, something is wrong. I prefer Alphatia's way, because while it is not just, because while the commoners are still treated unjustly by the aristocracy, at least they aren't *also* burdened by lots of other laws that don't work either! Arranged marriages are hardly atypical, even in the real world. "Fair and just" doesn't really come into it IMO - you could say "restrictive" or perhaps even "oppressive", but I cant see how justice comes into it. Political marriages is not really the issue either, I can't see how justice comes into it there either... All that behaviour would probably be coined as Lawful Neutral on the whole - perhaps with some evil streaks (but not much - would you say India is Lawful Evil?). The problem with Thyatis is probably corruption (giving the judge a few on the spot "fines" so you get let off lightly, or perhaps Uncle Julius the Judge will be kind, that sort of thing). But the laws themselves are sound - they are intended to provide justice. And not everyone in Thyatis is corrupt, just like not every Alphatian is a scheming archnecromancer bent on World Domination (only the ones in Shraek). Alphatian laws aren't like that at all, ultimately they are there to keep the scum in line, and prevent the wizards from taking out the nation with them when they feel like killing someone they really hate (they do learn from their mistakes). And as for the senators stealing the bread money - at least there was bread in the first place, which tells you something about the civic mentality of the place - and as I already said, corruption is the Thyatian problem (as a result of WotI). The difference is that Thyatis may be corrupt, but at least it has a sound baseline. Alphatia doesn't even have that. > So in short you claim that a society not based entirely on strictly maintained laws is automatically corrupt and evil - I'm sure the elves would be sorry to hear that! Even the elves have laws. And they apply to all, high and low, as King Arthur said in the film. . > >2nd: What is it about Alphatian society that is absent from other Mystaran > >societies and admirable, or finds a more admirable expression in Alphatia > >than elsewhere? Remembering that the liberty (or, rather, freedom) to do > >whatever one wants is, in Alphatia, limited to a minority proportion of the > >population (very opressive restrictions apply to the vast majority of the > >people, enforced by Imperial Law). > > > > So at the same time you say that freedom is whatever somebody wants it to be, but at the same time you deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners ? Personally, I think they value the 'freedom' of Alphatia as much as the aristocrats do. They won't get that freedom to the extent that the aristocracy will, no, but I still think they value it. I seem to recall that commoners are not actually allowed to wear spider silk (only mages get that) and even have a restriction on the hair styles they are allowed to adopt. Thats not freedom, thats an oppressive police state... Not to mention the fact that a human slave is not worth more than a horse - a restriction penned in law, to prevent goodly wizards from protecting the slaves they really like! Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.