========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:05:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. And > implementation of such a system -- a more bloody version of impeachment, > essentially -- doesn't have to be chaotic either. As Clint Eastwood has > said, "some folks just need killin'." I think it would basically depend on several factors, such as a) are duels to the death? b) can the underdog legitimately back out of a duel to avoid getting fragged, and receive the backing of the law? c) how is a duel "defined" exactly? Does it have to be organised with seconds, healing on standby, set rules of engagement and whatever? Or is fireballing someone in the back permissible? The good/evil axis is always hazy anyway. Good and evil are difficult to define, and by giving a nation like Alphatia an alignment you are basically judging it against real world morality. If Alphatia was a real nation on Earth, do you think it would be considered good or evil? Probably evil, simply because a large segment of its population are relegated to second class citizens. Not exactly dissimilar to colonialism for example - the natives weren't typically mistreated, but they were nevertheless second class citizens. And colonialism is no longer acceptable on the world stage of Earth. I don't think Wild West Justice is particularly lawful. I suppose the Clint Eastwood style character would be chaotic good. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:28:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Would you care to mention a nation or empire of Mystara in which slaves are treated well? They aren't in Alphatia, but is it surprising? They are slaves - slaves are treated 'well' anywhere, including Thyatis.<< Yes, but Alphatia doesn't even treat the vast majority of the rest of its population with any consideration. So much for your argument that Alphatia is a "liberalistic" society for everyone. When all else fails (as it has), change the subject to other countries. . . > > Law in Thyatis being just? Ahem! Eusebius forcing the poor to migrate: Fair and just? << Yes, there is that - however, that stuff was written by someone who obviously knew nothing about the differences between the two Empires *OR* who *did* know but wanted to reverse their position. That person created Un-Alphatia and Un-Thyatis: see below. >>because while the commoners are still treated unjustly by the aristocracy, at least they aren't *also* burdened by lots of other laws that don't work either! << Alphatian slave to his friend "you know, I'd like to have legal protections against being slain out of hand, but I don't want any burdensome laws restricting my master's ability to do whatever he wants to me. By the way, how do you like these oozing tentacles he replaced my arms with? My master freely insisted that I accept the change, and I was free to be transformed into this. I don't like the tentacles, but wadda yah gonna do. If there were restrictions on my master's liberty to do this sort of thing, he'd be less free, and I value his freedom more than I value myself. . .and my freedom. . ." > > So in short you claim that a society not based entirely on strictly maintained laws is automatically corrupt and evil - I'm sure the elves would be sorry to hear that! << > Nope; there are two different types of laws - true Libertarianism, which the Elves (CG) might practice, would have few laws, but they would be focused not around giving one part of the population the "right" to treat the other part in any way they please - those laws that would exist would serve simply to outlaw harms to another (you can't murder your slave - and, indeed, you can't enslave anyone in the first place, or reduce them to the status of an opressed Servile class, because that violates their liberty) - There might be very few laws, existing not to *curtail* the liberties of the vast majority of the members of the society (as in Alphatia), but to *prevent* people's liberties from being curtailed, to prevent people from being coerced as they routinely are in Alphatia. > This is an undead thread - it will go nowhere postive. I learned that the first time we had it... > Well, if you believe that, then I'm puzzled why you're participating in it? Not that I'm upset to have you participate, but it does seem odd that you decry the existence of the thread but are also a enthusiastic-seeming participant. > > Even in goody little Karameikos, the Thyatians are clearly advantaged, while the original Traladaran population has few opportunities, << Of course, giving Traladara to Stefan was a bad thing, because, yes, it did mean that the Traladarans were disposessed and reduced to second-class status (though not nearly as badly off as such people are in Alphatia) - they'd have been better off if Thyatis had maintained direct authority over the place. If you read the "History of Karameikos" portions, Thyatian rule was what you claim Alphatian rule of areas is like - very Libertarian - the Thyatians garrisoned the place lightly, trade increased because lawlessness decreased, but other than that the Traladarans were aloud to live as they pleased, with few impositions by Thyatis. Ask the Jennites of Esterhold if they think Alphatia was a Libertarian society. . . But, since you bring it up, what freedoms do the Traladaran's lack, but the Alphatians have? > > So at the same time you say that freedom is whatever somebody wants it to be, but at the same time you deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners ? >> *I* don't deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners - Alphatian society denies that choice to Alphatian commoners. I merely point out that unpleasant fact, which seems to be the trouble: >>They won't get that freedom to the extent that the aristocracy will, no, but I still think they value it.<< Alphatian Servant to his friend: "You know, I highly value our master's freedom to oppress us" Servant's friend: "Don't forget, we have freedom, too - like the freedom to not be alloud to own property, and the freedom to pick who will opress us today! We're free to pick our own master! Bully for us! I'm so glad to be an Untermench in Alphatia, rather than a Citizen of Thyatis." But, you (or anyone) tell me - what are the freedoms that Alphatia's untermenchen value, which *they* get to experience? I mean, other than being freed of the burden of being aloud to make decisions regarding their welfare and freedom from the burden of participating in deciding how they are governed and treated. I mean, you can point out that they "value freedom" as much as their masters do, but all that does is expose a tension, a festering unresolved problem, in Alphatian society: the vast majority of the population values and admires freedom, gets to witness it's use (and abuse) every day, but they aren't able to participate in this "libertarian society" themselves - they see freedom being excersised by others, but are themselves unfree. How do they react? Well, so far I suppose they've been Charmed and Zzonga drugged into passive acceptance. But in Thyatis, the same situation (which existed under Alphatian rule in BC 192-BC 0, and then again under Zendrol's Tyranny from AC 0 - AC 20) fostered unrest that led to the creation of what might be termed a much more *truely* libertarian society for the majority - Valentia had to make membership in the Empire vollentary (see DotE Book One, releasing Ochalea & Pearl Islands and then inviting them to vollentarily re-join the Empire), create Citizenship, and protections for Citizens against coersive authority, and laws that treated people irregardless of social status, but instead on the basis of the harms they caused (read up on 19th century Liberal theory). Of course, Slavery persisted, and other problems emerged (the oft-cited corruption). But if either nation was founded on principles that could be considered closer to classical Liberal/Libertarian theory (if any Imperial/monarchical society can be so considered), it was Thyatis, and not Alphatia, where coersion by others is a way of life. Hell - it's not *a* way of life, it's *the* way of life. > Please stop this, James! It's not going anywhere and we're just repeating ourselves. > Why stop an interesting discussion? Unless the point is that you should have your say and I should be silent - yes, a truely Alphatian view of liberty, indeed. . . Anyhow, the real Libertarian view is that any participant in this discussion can stop at any time - but no one can coerce another participant, and prevent them from expressing their views. Of course, someone *can* come in on this discussion and end it, if someone starts to violate the minimal restrictions that apply to the MML. But that someone isn't any old Alphatian wizard who says so, it's an authority we all freely submitted too when we volentarily joined the MML. Anyhow, I said I was going to get back to something, a topic of a particular Mystaran author, so here we go: Un-Alphatia revealed! To circle this back around towards the thread topic, it would be accurate to say that Alphatia was *NOT* preserved post-WotI (I was going to say "not preserved in the HW", but see below). Something *else* was preserved/placed in the HW, and took over on the surface. Something that has several superficial resemblances to Alphatia (it has the same name, similar geography, a superficially similar political structure, and is highly magic-oriented). But there the similarities between what we can call "Alphatia" (or "Actual Alphatia" or "True Alphatia") and what we might call "Un-Alphatia" stop - the differences between them are more significant than the similarities (there's also, by the way, an "Thyatis" and an "Un-Thyatis." Oddly enough, "Un-Alphatia" has a number of strong similarities to "Thyatis," and "Un-Thyatis" has a few, though not as many, similarities to "Alphatia") Lets take a few, from off the top of my head (or, as some will have it, out of my fundiment): Alphatia: No legal protections for slaves - though owners must be comphensated if they are slain or maimed. "Imperial Law" gives rulers the authority to change laws as they want, and thus no procedural protections preventing what would be thought of in other places as "abuses of authority" from routinely occuring. Un-Alphatia: "Imperial Law" respects certain protections for slaves, who are happy with their lot anyhow except in areas where the rulers don't follow Un-Alphatia's strong traditions against opression and arbitrary treatment. Thyatis: Imperial Law provides certain protections for slaves, making them at least as well off as Alphatia's servant class (the bulk of Alphatia's population). Un-Thyatis: naked despotism where slaves are constantly revolting. Alphatia: sneers at "citizenship" and "democracy" (see Tylion/Terari's comments about them in the "History of Alphatia" section). Un-Alphatia: Hotbed of democratic impulse (see also remarks about barbarians, below). Thyatis: has citizenship and elected Senators. Un-Thyatis: is an absolute dictatorship, with stalin-like purges. Alphatia: small caste of Ubermench are free to do as they please (arbitrary and virtually unrestricted authority), majority of the population unfree, having no input into how they are governed or treated. Un-Alphatia: has "Alphatian citizenship," but what it constitutes is never clearly mentioned - though we're to suppose it's a really good deal, because the freed Jennites seem happy to enter this status (probably "Alphatian Citizenship" is exactly identical to "Citizenship" as outlined for one of the countries described in DotE, but a spell has been cast on me and I forget which one it was. . . .) Thyatis: Ruling classes authority over others limited in a variety of ways, only a minority of the population (proportion reverse that of Alphatia) unfree. Majority of hte population are citizens, with liberties, who have input into how they are governed. Un-Thyatis: Seemingly has no citizenship, people are unfree, disposed of at the whims of arbitrary rulers. Alphatia: a xenophobic civilization that respects only own, and Thothian, people as civilized; others suitable for enslavement or ignoring. Un-Alphatia: respects multicultural diversity in all its forms, extending citizenship to Jennites and Neathar. Thyatis: is eclectic and cosmopolitan, intrigued with and interested in other cultures (see DotE, PGtT, p.10, "Races"). Un-Thyatis: is phillistinic and close-minded towards other cultures. Alphatia: at best, looks at Clerics as somewhat handicapped, not-quite-good-enough-to-be-mages, and is indifferent at best towards the Immortals. Un-Alphatia: is revered by the Immortals, and has a vast (and significant) clerical component in its army. Thyatis: Develops clerical magic to counter Alphatia's mages, and is based upon a trinity of fighting, magical, and theocratic power (see also "Test of the Warlords" for a consise statement of this, though reading DotE will give a similar impression). Un-Thyatis: has no clerics (or mages) in its military (exception: mages in Alphatian forces that enter Thyatian service); is so backwards, Cleric-wise, that they are unable to deal with a few skellies and zombies (siege of Ekto). Un-Thyatis helpless in the face of disease and famine until helped by an Un-Alphatian (one Breindel Tzuriel). Alphatia: uses Skyships for aerial stuff, apparently has no force mounted on flying creatures (see DotE, DMSB, "Cross-Imperial Adventures", pp.107-107). Un-Alphatia: It, and it's distaff cousin, Thothia, have an effective and efficient force of troops mounted on aerial troops, IN ADDITION to Skyships (1,061 troops mounted on pegasi, all of whom are 6th level or higher). Thyatis: has the "Retebius Air Fleet" and "Knights of the Air" organizations, which are forces mounted on flying creatures. Un-Thyatis: has no flying craft or troops, nor apparently any experience with them, until the Un-Alphatians of Aeria deign to give them access to some information, though they have second thoughts about it almost immediately, and are rather easily able to disable the incompetent Thyatians and take the ship back. None the less, the Thyatians eventually manage to build Skyships, thanks to knowlege aquired from the Un-Alphatians. Alphatians: Are agressive imperialists who see others as suitable for conquering or, at best, ignoring. Un-Alphatians: are the "Popular Liberation Front" of Mystara, freeing Ostdock Gnomes, for example, from foreign opression and being set up as the "protectors" of the Hollow World (yes, well - if one wanted to be. . ....right. . .about it, one could say that that is a guise of Imperialism, and all sorts of nasty stuff can be done by "Protectors" - for example, when Alphatia Conquered Thyatis, they called it a "Protectorate" apparently. However, this does NOT seem to be what was intended to be depicted here, with the Jennite-freeing, Neathar-loving, Ostdock-liberating Un-Alphatians. True Alphatians might have "liberated" the Ostdockers to the extent of simply replacing the HKs as its despotic Overlords). Thyatians: Are Imperialists as well, but mainly seen to spend their energy defending itself from Alphatia. Un-Thyatis: evil Imperialists. Note that in later materiel, however, the Immortal Patron of Conquerors gets transformed into the Immortal Patron of Liberation Theology (but the Thyatians, and Un-Thyatians, remain wicked conquerers - and, in fact, this is the evil Empire that the Un-Vanya Worshipers are organizing their Liberation Theology against). Alphatians: legal process consists of using ESP, at least when slaves & servants are concerned. Legal process more concerned with the social status of those involved than with matters of procedural justice. Un-Alphatians: heavy emphasis on respecting legal procedure ("Imperial Law") regarding the rights (?) of the accused to due process. Thyatians: Legal process according penalties on the basis of the severity of the crime and the intent of the criminal, but not on the social status of either the offender or victim. Un-Thyatians: brutally stamp out numerous revolts against their despotic rule. Alphatians: Rulers can be as excentric and arbitrary as they please, and are virtually autocratic in their authority over non-spellcasting portions of the population. Rulers often indifferent to the welfare of the common population. Un-Alphatians: Deeply concerned with abuse of power, depose rulers who are arbitrary, "Imperial Law" respects all persons, apparently, irregardless of race and spellcasting status. Thyatians: Rulers often corrupt, but procedural institutions designed to check abuses of power, protections granted to Citizens and even slaves limit authority of rulers; rulers forced by circumstances to be at least somewhat attentive to the needs/welfare of the average Citizen. Un-Thyatians: Rulers are excentric and arbitrary, instituting widespread purges, indifferent to the welfare of the population. Alphatians: successes largely based upon heavy aplication of magic to solve military problems. Non-spellcasters mainly seen as expendable troops intended to serve the needs of the spellcasting aristocracy; military matters not given much attention. Arming most of populace as reserves not recomended, as slaves and wogs trained in fighting can be dangerous potential rebels. Un-Alphatians: most efficient military machine in Mystara, repleate with high level (and well respected) fighters, officers of unparalleled level, and an army with magical, fighting, and theocratic branches. Un-Alphatia rebuilds its military to superpower status in the course of one year (between AC 1010 and AC 1011). Reserves compare favorably with the standing forces of Darokin and even Thyatis. Thyatis: Efficient military machine, using combined arms (and, especially, combining use of magic & clerical power) to offset Alphatia's magical strength. Many military orders, including combat priest orders. Reserves consist of these fighting orders, citizens organized to mobilize in the defense of the Empire in wartime (I.E. Knights of the Air). Un-Thyatis: hoplessly ineffective military consists entirely of ill-trained, ill-equipped troops used as expendable assets; no clerical or magical assets of note (except those in the Alphatian units that enter Thyatian service). Inefficient and ineffective at best. No fighting or clerical orders. Reserves likewise pittiful, seemingly hastily-armed peasant levies, and revolts seem to be common. Of course, for that last one, one could (appropriately) make the case that since Alphatia tended to win the Wrath War and Thyatis was largely filling out its units with "mostly civilians, old men, youths, and others, none of them trained fighters" (WotI, p.88, "Alphatians in Thyatis"), it makes sense that the surviving Thyatian forces would be weaker than the surviving Alphatian forces. However, while few people believe that Alphatia's forces as depicted in the 1st PWA represent the best forces Alphatia had to offer, I've had a hard time convincing people that the forces Thyatis fields in the PWA represent less than the best they had. Similarly, I find it extremely odd that Un-Alphatia rebuilds a vastly powerful military in one year (between the 1st PWA and PWA II) - one *could* argue that the Alphatian forces improved during the course of the war as their originally not-so-well-trained fighters gained combat experience; but those would have been the ones stranded on the surface (and this is a fair explanation, for example, of why Alphatia's officers tend to be higher level than Thyatis' officers by 1010: the victorious Alphatian's officers have gained experience, while most of Thyatis' experienced officers either had to be removed, because they had been corrupted by Valerias, or had been killed or captured in battle). But since such folks would be stranded on the surface, that doesn't explain how Alphatia aquired such Supermen for their military by PWA II. There *is* an explanation for that, however: Un-Alphatia. Anyhow, as we have seen, the Alphatia that emerges post-WotI is *NOT* the "preserved" form of Alphatia, either in the HW or on the surface. It is some sort of "Doppleganger Alphatia" - something inserted in the place of the original Alphatia, having (surprisingly) many of the positive attributes of their long-time sworn enemies, the Thyatians. Meanwhile, some mystical force has, seemingly, transfered those attributes from the Thyatians, so that they no longer have them, and are left instead with the least-likable attributes of "True Alphatia" and few if any of "True Thyatis's" own admirable qualities. Oh, one other thing: Alphatia was interesting. Un-Alphatia is typical. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 08:38:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Fry wrote: > I have been stung so much with multiclassing I have pretty well got rid of > it altogether. Instead everyone advances on the xp table of a fighter, and > whenever they advance a level they can choose what class they put it in. > So, your 1st level fighter upon reaching level 2 can choose to become a > level 2 fighter, or a F1 and something else at level one. > > It means that at higher level the multiclassers are punished. Under the > standard system a multiclassed character is only one or two levels below his > single classed brethren, and as a result is infinitely more powerful. This > way you could either play a 6/6 fighter mage, or a level 12 mage - which is > quite a difference. > > (No one understood that I bet - it is a bit garbled isn't it :) I totally understood that -- especially since that sounds almost /exactly/ the same as how the new multiclassing rules work in 3E D&D. ;-) You really should consider taking a quick peak at Eric Noah's 3E D&D News Web Site -- it's got the most reliable set of information about what 3E is going to be like. The URL is http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/ Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web� Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> You are still forgetting that another aristocrat can challenge the offender to a duel - very little is required for an aristocrat to be allowed to do this, and if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel will be quite predictable...<< I'm not forgetting that, I just don't see the need to use that to make my point. Of course, you're correct - but that only adds weight to my assertion that it is "might makes right" in Alphatia, rather than any consideration of justice (". . .if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel will be quite predictable. . ." as you say). If I'm strong but guilty, I'll just slay you in a duel and that will be the end of the matter. Fiends do that in the Abyss, too. And yes, you're right, in a way - that couldn't happen in Thyatis. However, Thyatis does have dueling (see p.13, Player's Guide to Thyatis), as I think Rob pointed out. It just isn't considered part of the system of justice. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:36:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society oughttobeconsidered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I see it just the opposite way: The Alphatians might have an even stronger morality than most, and if so they need no laws to guide them - they would already know what's right and wrong! << What's your evidence for that? Since you certainly can't get that impression from DotE, which indeed says outright the very opposite, as I have already quoted on several occassions, with serveral different example-quotes. Alphatian Servant to Alphatian Slave: "yep, our overlords are great guys, they certainly have a stronger sense of morality than those benighted Darokinians!" Slave to Servant: "Your master cast Dominate again on you today, I see." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. > Oh? Drow have similar "formal" traditions, IIRC, but it doesn't make them any less Chaotic. Of course, you might be right - Alphatia might be Neutral Evil instead. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:29:00 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. In-Reply-To: <200005011541.LAA29347@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:39 05/01/2000 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >> >> Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. >> >Oh? Drow have similar "formal" traditions, IIRC, but it doesn't make them >any less Chaotic. Laws and traditions are, by definition I believe, lawful. That might not counter everything else in their culture, of course, including the influence of a powerful religion (or two) based around the worship of powerful extra-planar chaotic creatures. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:43:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I totally understood that -- especially since that sounds almost > /exactly/ the same as how the new multiclassing rules work in 3E D&D. ;-) Yeah, I thought it was. I actually took that idea from listening to a discussion on 3E at Gen Con - I don't know how exactly it will end up in 3rd ed but that method I just described will do as a stop gap until 3E comes out and I can see TSRs take on the subject... Thanks for the URL. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:02:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Laws and traditions are, by definition I believe, lawful. That might not > counter everything else in their culture, of course, including the > influence of a powerful religion (or two) based around the worship of > powerful extra-planar chaotic creatures. > Yes and no - few Chaotic societies will have *no* laws and be pure anarchies - Limbo, perhaps, but not even the Githzereai have a social order and what might be called a code of obedience. And, heck, it would be too "Lawfully-consistant" and thus un-Chaotic if there *weren't* some things that seemed "incongruously Lawful" (being inconsistant might mean having laws covering some things but not others, but those laws have numerous exceptions, and can be countermanded by rulers on a whim - which is what can occur in Alphatia, regularly). If you define is and isn't considered Chaotic too strictly, then you'd be going so far as saying no society can be Chaotic, because all social orders have "lawful" aspects. Yes, the dueling-codes that developed after the "First Big Oops" put a limit on the arbitrary, Chaotic behavior of Alphatia's aristocracy, but it's a small limit as such things go - especially when compared to other so-called "Chaotic" societies (hell, the example of Elves was brought up, earlier, but most Elven societies created in AD&D worlds seem very strongly hierarchical to me, with a powerful monarchy, and traditions have a very strong hold on people's behaviors. Doesn't really sound that "Chaotic" to me, either - but other aspects ameliorate that, resulting in a society that is, overall, chaotic). Point is, Alphatia at least seems more Chaotic than those places do. The dueling-custom is about the only consistantly semi-enforced limit on chaotic behavior, but, lets face it, it isn't much of a limit, because the mages can still smoke down most people with impunity without having to resort to the formality of the Dueling-Shield (and, if anyone objects, they can just duel 'em - so the only way to enforce "laws" on them is to be more mighty, and either beat them in the duel, or make them not want to duel in the first place). It's mainly a limit on their interaction with each other, and even then the "formal" nature of the duel is designed to more strongly enforce the overall "might makes right" ethos that underlies Alphatia's social fabric - so it's hard to say that it somehow "softens" their social alignment - Duels don't seem to be vollentary things: if you're challenged, you either duel, or give in to the wishes of the challenger and get him to withdraw the challenge (Tylion IV couldn't just laugh and say "well, I don't accept the challenge" - he had to participate, or give in. Naked might makes right). In Thyatis, it seems both parties must agree to participate, at least, making it harder for grossly unequal "duels" to occur. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:24:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Fw: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Laws and traditions are, by definition I believe, lawful. That > > might not > > > counter everything else in their culture, of course, including the > > > influence of a powerful religion (or two) based around the worship of > > > powerful extra-planar chaotic creatures. What if those laws and traditions are inconsistent? Or, supposing the law says that if someone is accused of committing a crime, the judge flips a coin to decide his innocence or guilt? Would that imply a lawful justice system? > > Yes, the dueling-codes that developed after the "First Big Oops" > put a > > limit on the arbitrary, Chaotic behavior of Alphatia's aristocracy, but > > it's a small limit as such things go - especially when compared to other > > so-called "Chaotic" societies (hell, the example of Elves was brought up, > > earlier, but most Elven societies created in AD&D worlds seem very > strongly > > hierarchical to me, with a powerful monarchy, and traditions have a very > > strong hold on people's behaviors. Doesn't really sound that "Chaotic" to > > me, either - but other aspects ameliorate that, resulting in a society > that > > is, overall, chaotic). Point is, Alphatia at least seems more Chaotic than > > those places do. Well, yeah. I dislike most of the elven civilisations as depicted just for that reason (humans with pointy ear syndrome) - but look at Alfheim, the model of a chaotic society - but their laws are still there to uphold the good and punish the bad. Alphatian laws are not. > > somehow "softens" their social alignment - Duels don't seem to be > > vollentary things: if you're challenged, you either duel, or give in to > the > > wishes of the challenger and get him to withdraw the challenge (Tylion IV > > couldn't just laugh and say "well, I don't accept the challenge" - he had > > to participate, or give in. Naked might makes right). In Thyatis, it seems > > both parties must agree to participate, at least, making it harder for > > grossly unequal "duels" to occur. This is the main point. Getting your own way legally by having the ability to turn the victim into a toad is hardly just or fair, is it, by any standard. In fact, its tyranny of the worst form, where the strong have everything and weak have no rights at all. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:29:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. In-Reply-To: <200005011704.NAA23662@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:02 05/01/2000 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >If you define is and isn't considered >Chaotic too strictly, then you'd be going so far as saying no society can >be Chaotic, because all social orders have "lawful" aspects. No argument there; I just was saying that I don't believe that there are such things as chaotic laws and traditions. At worst, they might be neutral where such things are concerned, but an ingrained pattern of behavior that serves to prevent ingrained patterns of behavior seems hard to imagine. OTOH, I think such traditions may well fall towards the evil end of the spectrum, so there's that for people who view Alphatia as a CE culture. I have no opinion on Alphatia's culture, myself: Don't own DotE, and I run a game set in 1013, so it's not much of an issue in any case. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:35:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis. In-Reply-To: <000901bfb392$12d7e880$9240d4d4@rob2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 18:24 05/01/2000 +0100, Rob wrote: > Getting your own way legally by having the ability > to turn the victim into a toad is hardly just or fair, is it, by any >standard. In fact, its tyranny of the worst form, where the strong have >everything and weak have no rights at all. Hey, you leave Glantri out of this! My apologist essay for the nation isn't ready yet! BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:35:36 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hey, you leave Glantri out of this! My apologist essay for the nation > isn't ready yet! > Oh, goodie! I'm happy because I've been challenged to say some unkind things about them (I mean, far be it from *me* to be negative - no, not me - but in this case I *have* been encouraged by someone, and I don't want to disapoint). I'll look forward to it. 8-) Something about how Glantri greets Dwarven & Halfling travellers might be something for you to include in your essay. *_+ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:41:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <200005011837.OAA08749@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:35 05/01/2000 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >> >> Hey, you leave Glantri out of this! My apologist essay for the >nation >> isn't ready yet! >Oh, goodie! > I'm happy because I've been challenged to say some unkind things about >them (I mean, far be it from *me* to be negative - no, not me - but in this >case I *have* been encouraged by someone, and I don't want to disapoint). >I'll look forward to it. 8-) The thesis: A society of those fully engaged in making themselves the best they can be and with a record of supporting the nation is the greatest society in the Known World ... >Something about how Glantri greets Dwarven & Halfling travellers might be >something for you to include in your essay. *_+ That's all valuable research into the airspeed of disease-ridden vermin. You never know when you're going to have to fire halflings into the enemy camp at some point. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The thesis: A society of those fully engaged in making themselves the best > they can be and with a record of supporting the nation is the greatest > society in the Known World ... > Yes, I like the Nuari and the Pearl Islands, too. I didn't know you did as well 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:46:51 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Paths to Immortality MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >If I remember correctly, each sphere has a specific Path (plus the Path of >the Conqueror, which can apparently be taken by humanoids in any Sphere). >The reduced XP requirements are for characters of the Sphere's favored >class(es, if you're using the WOTI rules rather than the Cyclopedia). That's always been my understanding as well. I.E., the Path of the Dynast leads only to the sphere of time, but clerics and druids get a bonus if they try it. IMO this is made clear at least for the Dynast because there are records of two immortals of Time completing the Path accidentally (Khoronus and Yav). One side note--there is another Path for dragons only described in AC10: Bestiary of Giants and Dragons which leads only to the sphere of Matter (and which seems to contradict Dragonmage of Mystara). IIRC there's also kind of a path described for Giants, but it's been too long since I've read it. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:10:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Paths to Immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That's always been my understanding as well. I.E., the Path of the Dynast > leads only to the sphere of time, but clerics and druids get a bonus if they > try it. Thanks for the clarification, (after re-reading WotI and the RC I found much to my chagrin that it was in front of my nose all along) but now I have a big problem. In my campaign, I have a Paladin of Vanya that's about to start to look into the Paths of Immortality. This paladin could be described as one of Vanya's more dedicated disciples (I prefer to think of him as a member of the Church's lunatic fringe), and follows Vanya's teachings to the letter (and I mean that literally!). Here's the problem. Being so dedicated to Vanya, he will not entertain being sponsored by any other Immortal, and he is the embodiment of the Epic Hero (travelling the countyside righting wrongs and going on epic quests etc. etc.). If he settled down to and tried to start on the path of Dynast, it would drive him nuts (and be VERY out of character). I was hoping to use the Path of Epic Hero for him to attain Immortality, (he's got a bit of a bee in his bonnet about launching a Crusade against the Ylarites - I thought that would fall nicely for his Task) but Vanya is an Immortal of the Sphere of Time and can only sponsor candidates for her Sphere. As I thought (erroniously) that all Paths were open for the candidate to choose from (a sort of horses for courses if you like), this would not have been a problem, but as it's not would it be possible to make an "exception" or is it back to the drawing board? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:15:52 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Igor Subject: Greeting and a "?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks. I'm new to this list, but not new to D&D--I begged my cousin's copy from him in 1983 when he got the red-box set. I've been enjoying the list for the past few weeks, but now I'm ready to turn off lurk-mode. Anyhoo, I'm wondering if someone could tell me what the module "Arena of Thyatis" is about. I ask because my PCs will soon be trapped in the TC Coliseum during a riot, and I created a map of the Coliseum, but I think my version is too small. It only fits about 19,000. So does the module have a map? Does anyone else? A thanks upon your houses. igor. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:23:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Something about how Glantri greets Dwarven & Halfling travellers might be > something for you to include in your essay. *_+ The research into exactly why Dwarves and Halflings are so magic resistant is an important topic! I mean it's not as if they're Alphatians! A Glantrian population is a happy population (you just ask any Glantrian mage). They just sink the odd continent now and again..... :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:22:32 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <002d01bfb3b3$890b4bc0$1f5e01d5@phillip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:23 05/01/2000 +0100, Phillip Jones wrote: >I mean it's not as if they're Alphatians! A Glantrian >population is a happy population (you just ask any Glantrian mage). They >just sink the odd continent now and again..... :) You say that as though that's not part of the reason they're so happy. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:49:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Damon Alexander Brown Subject: Re: Paths to Immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Phillip Jones wrote: > > As I thought > (erroniously) that all Paths were > open for the candidate to choose from (a sort of > horses for courses if you > like), this would not have been a problem, but as > it's not would it be > possible to make an "exception" or is it back to the > drawing board? > Well, my advice(FWIW) is to go with what works best for *your* campaign. Of course, it may cause some slight inconsistencies down the road, but hey, the important thing is to keep the campaign running smoothly. It sounds like the player in question(not to mention the storyline) will be much more satisfied if you bend the rules a little on this one. Just don't rat me out to the 'rules police'! :o) -Damon ===== "A day without sunshine is like... well, night." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Greeting and a "?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Anyhoo, I'm wondering if someone could tell me what the module "Arena of > Thyatis" is about. I ask because my PCs will soon be trapped in the TC Coliseum > during a riot, and I created a map of the Coliseum, but I think my version is > too small. It only fits about 19,000. So does the module have a map? > Only part of the adventure in DDA1 & DDA2 takes place in the Coliseum, but for adventures of the size & detail of those two, they're pretty good. Yes, a map is included, but the scale is a bit off (as is the scale of Thyatis City) - the scale of the Thyatis City map (from DotE, and Sundsvall, too, btw) should be 1" = 1,000 yards, not feet. The scale of the Coliseum map in DDA1 lists it as 1 square = 20', but I think we agreed that should be 1 square = 15'. The map is good, though, and includes a map of part of the catacombs that connect to the Coliseum, some other interesting maps, and details on the Order of the Sands (a group that the Gladiators belong to), so I'd recomend you pick up a copy if you can find one at a reasonable price. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:04:04 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Greeting and a "?"] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igor wrote: > >I've been enjoying the list for the past few weeks, but now I'm ready to= >turn off lurk-mode. Welcome to the list. Hope the Alphatia vs. Thyatis tirade hasn't soured y= ou to anything. ;) (No offense to anyone involved, just poking fun.) >Anyhoo, I'm wondering if someone could tell me what the module "Arena of= >Thyatis" is about. I ask because my PCs will soon be trapped in the TC >Coliseum during a riot, and I created a map of the Coliseum, but I think= >my version is too small. It only fits about 19,000. So does the module >ha= ve a map? Does anyone else? DDA2 involves a similar plot. Part one deals with a riot of sorts in the Arena, and part two is a legal thriller, with Players taking the roles of= prosecution and defense. Don't recall too much else offhand, though I don= 't think there's more than a small underground map of the arena in it. I do= seem to recall talk here on the list that the scale of the map in Dawn of the Emperors (boxed set) is off. You might ask James Ruhland, he of the "Pro-Thyatian" side in the previou= sly mentioned thread. Or check his website- it's accessible through Shawn's p= age (http://dnd.starflung.com) though I don't recall what it's called. Someth= ing Thyatian, I'd wager. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:05:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I mean it's not as if they're Alphatians! A Glantrian > >population is a happy population (you just ask any Glantrian mage). They > >just sink the odd continent now and again..... :) > > You say that as though that's not part of the reason they're so happy. > > BEAU > Of couse thats the reason. I mean so what if some of the Princes should really come under the "New Monsters" section of the book. Its not as if there's a undead or werecreature problem in Glantri is it? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:13:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb3b9$6d7d19a0$1f5e01d5@phillip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:05 05/01/2000 +0100, Phillip Jones wrote: >I mean so what if some of the Princes should >really come under the "New Monsters" section of the book. Its not as if >there's a undead or werecreature problem in Glantri is it? A typical, yet no less offensive example of non-Glantrian thinking. Those who have enabled themselves and shown themselves to be an actively positive force to the nation should be pitied their ailments and their differences understood, not discriminated against. A man may choose not to learn magic, but lycanthropes are rarely volunteers. To disenfranchise one is to ask that citizens exert themselves for their own sake and for Glantri. To disenfranchise the other is immoral. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:45:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 1 May 2000 03:40:45 Rob Fry wrote: >> You are still forgetting that another aristocrat can challenge the >offender to a duel - very little is required for an aristocrat to be allowed >to do this, and if the challenger is more powerful, the result of the duel >will be quite predictable... In 959 AC several archmages were willing to >challenge Emperor Tylion IV just to get rid of him, for example - that >couldn't happen in Thyatis... > > >Well, that truly is Chaotic Evil. As long as you can turn the other guy >into a snowball and throw him on a fire, you can do whatever you want (and >even the Emperor is not immune). > No! It's chaotic, yes, but whether it's evil or not depends on what people do - if enough people have a good sense of justice, then such a system might work because enough people would stand up to those who would abuse it's lack of rules. It's a utopia, but as you said before: It's a fantasy world! I truly doubt that it could ever work in reality - would be nice if it could, but since I don't think so, at least allow me the illusion that it just might on Mystara ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:57:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A typical, yet no less offensive example of non-Glantrian thinking. Those > who have enabled themselves and shown themselves to be an actively positive > force to the nation should be pitied their ailments and their differences > understood, not discriminated against. > A man may choose not to learn magic, but lycanthropes are rarely > volunteers. To disenfranchise one is to ask that citizens exert themselves > for their own sake and for Glantri. To disenfranchise the other is immoral. > True. True. Lycanthropes have their condition thrust upon them, but if some decent clerics were allowed to treat them, only the truely wicked would want to remain in their diseased state.MacGregors and Morphails "differences" however, were the result of their personal grabs for power, regardless of the cost. You mention about discrimination. If a man has not he intelligence to grasp the rudiments of magic, then why do the become second class citizens. After all, they cannot even bear arms without a license application that has been countersigned by a mage, and why is it that "mundaners" are guilty until proven innocent in the courts of law, where "arcaners" have the luxury of being presumed innocent? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:03:55 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <000801bfb3c0$a6b2ed60$1f5e01d5@phillip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:57 05/01/2000 +0100, Phillip Jones wrote: >True. True. Lycanthropes have their condition thrust upon them, but if some >decent clerics were allowed to treat them, only the truely wicked would want >to remain in their diseased state.MacGregors and Morphails "differences" >however, were the result of their personal grabs for power, regardless of >the cost. Cost to whom? You pass on slanderous allegations about two princes, yet have no evidence and can point to nothing that shows them to be other than fully engaged loyal citizens of Glantri. And as for princes and mages seeking power, that is part of being a good citizen; Glantri is a small nation, sandwiched between the Master of Hule, the Ethengar barbarians, the tribes of the Broken Lands and has no nation of any spine or moral character to turn to save itself. The pursuit of power by Glantrians is a natural instinct for preservation and a moral impulse of the highest order. >You mention about discrimination. If a man has not he intelligence to grasp >the rudiments of magic, then why do the become second class citizens. After >all, they cannot even bear arms without a license application that has been >countersigned by a mage, and why is it that "mundaners" are guilty until >proven innocent in the courts of law, where "arcaners" have the luxury of >being presumed innocent? :) This notion that there are those who "cannot" learn magic has never been proven; there are dullards who have learned it and geniuses who have not. Given that old preconceptions about who can and can't learn magic have been dashed with the crowning of Prince Kol -- a member of a species that non-Glantrian racists historically viewed as incapable of attaining the higher forms of consciousness needed to perform magic -- how can one honestly say that anyone is incapable? Such apologies for the lazy and mentally slothful only hide an agenda that would allow those who profit from magic without any effort of their own to seize unearned political and social power. Reaping the benefits without putting in the work may be fine for antiquated monarchies and other bandit states, by Glantri strives for something more: A nation of citizens who have honed themselves and proven their commitment to the nation and each other. The lazy and slothful can find other realms to sulk in. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:22:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis - duels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 1 May 2000 11:05:33 Rob Fry wrote: >> Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. And >> implementation of such a system -- a more bloody version of impeachment, >> essentially -- doesn't have to be chaotic either. As Clint Eastwood has >> said, "some folks just need killin'." > > >I think it would basically depend on several factors, such as > >a) are duels to the death? Usually yes. >b) can the underdog legitimately back out of a duel to avoid getting >fragged, and receive the backing of the law? Sure, but he does lose face and thus social standing, though, that would, of course, be preferable than being killed by a more powerful spellcaster. >c) how is a duel "defined" exactly? Does it have to be organised with >seconds, healing on standby, set rules of engagement and whatever? Or is >fireballing someone in the back permissible? > The two duelists must set a time in which they will duel and they will have time to prepare spells. Also, they *must* duel within a 'Duel-Shield' - a spell that creates an impenetrable barrier around the duelists (even more powerful than a Wall of Force!) - that way innocent bystanders aren't hurt. Once this has been done, the duel begins. It's all rather formal up to this point, actually, though once the real duel begins, pretty much anything goes... >The good/evil axis is always hazy anyway. Good and evil are difficult to >define, and by giving a nation like Alphatia an alignment you are basically >judging it against real world morality. If Alphatia was a real nation on >Earth, do you think it would be considered good or evil? Probably evil, >simply because a large segment of its population are relegated to second >class citizens. Not exactly dissimilar to colonialism for example - the >natives weren't typically mistreated, but they were nevertheless second >class citizens. And colonialism is no longer acceptable on the world stage >of Earth. > The problem with that is that by real-world standards today, just about all (if indeed not all) societies of Mystara would seem harsh, unfair, and evil. If you want good societies in D&D go to the Forgotten Realms :) (You won't find me there, though - yuck!) >I don't think Wild West Justice is particularly lawful. I suppose the Clint >Eastwood style character would be chaotic good. > Which, I believe, is exactly the point that was being made. The interesting thing is why people like you would call the Clint Eastwood character chaotic good while denying Alphatians to fall under the same category? - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:24:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Well, that truly is Chaotic Evil. As long as you can turn the other guy > >into a snowball and throw him on a fire, you can do whatever you want (and > >even the Emperor is not immune). > > > > No! It's chaotic, yes, but whether it's evil or not depends on what people do - if enough people have a good sense of justice, then such a system might work because enough people would stand up to those who would abuse it's lack of rules. It's a utopia, but as you said before: It's a fantasy world! I truly doubt that it could ever work in reality - would be nice if it could, but since I don't think so, at least allow me the illusion that it just might on Mystara ;) As I said, it probably is a utopia for the priveleged few (ie the mages) though even then they have to tread on their toes. But at least everyone is theoretically equal (if you are hard working and study hard you can advance in power and therefore position). BUT - what about those who have no innate skill at magic? By virtue of their birth they are relegated to Offal status. (Literally - I mean, the place has a law against protecting slaves from a mages wrath! You can waste a slave at will and expect to pay no more than 100gp max! And they deliberately put this law in place because some mages were stopping other mages from performing their Alphatian given right to exterminate lessers). To be a mundane in Alphatia means you have an existence not dissimilar to that of an orc in the Broken Lands. Lets take some examples of oppression... drawn mostly word for word. It is against the law for commoners to wear silk. Therefore, most commoners wear a more or less featureless short sleeved tunic, roped at the waist. (Sounds like some sort of coolie to me - or perhaps for those who know Paranoia, Infrared Scum) Servants and slaves wear their hair as dictated to them. It is a sign of favour to let a servant or slave grow his hair longer. (Note that a servant is probably the class which the vast majority of Alphatian citizens belong to. So if you are a really good boy, you can have long hair! The Alphatian idea of given the peon a break.). Slaves and servants eat what they are allotted, which usually isn't much - bread, some vegetables, an occasional gobbet of meat... (Sounds wild. A gobbet of meat when you are good!) Servants must belong to a household. That basically relegates servants to serf status. Every peon must have a master... Cant let the Infrared scum wander around loose after all! (Interesting as far as the military is concerned - the status of the filthbags who make up the "crack Alphatian legions". WW1 and "battle fodder" springs to mind. After all, they are Infrared scum, right? Mobile flesh armour for the wizards). If a servant does not address a nobleman (ie, a wizard) by his title, he promptly gets 10 lashes (at least). Imagine all the Paranoia style bootlicking here (Yes Mage So and So, By all means Mage XYZ. Even more fun with the Chaotic mages. "My title is Master Transmogrifier, worm! No mere mage, me! *starts casting Alpha's Whip of Peon Discipline* ). A few more indicators - the reason the Alphatian Empire has a strong economy is attributed to, not only magic, but cheap labour (slaves and servants). So - evidently a servants lot is not a happy one... Cheap labour implies that these servants dont exactly have a high standard of living. No plays, entertainments and masqued balls for these people. You are saying that this place is nice?????????????????????????????????? Uh huh. I challenge you to find another nation with laws as oppressive as that. You can't cut your hair? Thyatis, even with its corruption, is the very model of benevolence compared to Alphatia for the Peons. Imagine what a place like Bellayne is like (with a justice system described as fair and applying to all equally) to this people. Truly a Utopia. And saying that the mages are enlightened enough a wise enough to give the poor peon a life worth living doesnt really wash. OK, so 1 in 100 may be. But just read some of the above - the place is a fascist police state! In a place where the servant is nothing more than a footstool, why should you break the culture of 4000 years and be nice to him? Learn from comparatively liberal Thyatis (or Narvaez for that matter)? Never! Alphatia Above All! Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:33:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis - duels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I think it would basically depend on several factors, such as > > > >a) are duels to the death? > > Usually yes. Lovely. > >b) can the underdog legitimately back out of a duel to avoid getting > >fragged, and receive the backing of the law? > > Sure, but he does lose face and thus social standing, though, that would, of course, be preferable than being killed by a more powerful spellcaster. And if the other guy really presses the point? As it says, many mages have to duel at least once in their life. > >c) how is a duel "defined" exactly? Does it have to be organised with > >seconds, healing on standby, set rules of engagement and whatever? Or is > >fireballing someone in the back permissible? > > > > The two duelists must set a time in which they will duel and they will have time to prepare spells. Also, they *must* duel within a 'Duel-Shield' - a spell that creates an impenetrable barrier around the duelists (even more powerful than a Wall of Force!) - that way innocent bystanders aren't hurt. Once this has been done, the duel begins. It's all rather formal up to this point, actually, though once the real duel begins, pretty much anything goes... Keeps the wizards from accidentally blowing the planet up, or throwing a meteor swarm into the spectators by "accident". Even chaotic evil characters usually have a strong sense of self preservation :) > >The good/evil axis is always hazy anyway. Good and evil are difficult to > >define, and by giving a nation like Alphatia an alignment you are basically > >judging it against real world morality. If Alphatia was a real nation on > >Earth, do you think it would be considered good or evil? Probably evil, > >simply because a large segment of its population are relegated to second > >class citizens. Not exactly dissimilar to colonialism for example - the > >natives weren't typically mistreated, but they were nevertheless second > >class citizens. And colonialism is no longer acceptable on the world stage > >of Earth. > > > > The problem with that is that by real-world standards today, just about all (if indeed not all) societies of Mystara would seem harsh, unfair, and evil. If you want good societies in D&D go to the Forgotten Realms :) (You won't find me there, though - yuck!) I wouldn't say that, on the contrary I think most Mystara nations are surprisingly nice given the historical period they are supposed to represent. Alphatia is the only major power to still have an economy based on serfs for example. Which societies are harsh unfair and cruel? None really spring to mind aside from the Heldannic Territories and perhaps Ethengar. Perhaps Glantri, but the Glantrians treat their mundanes a lot better than the Alphers do. At least Duncan McGregor can have long hair. > >I don't think Wild West Justice is particularly lawful. I suppose the Clint > >Eastwood style character would be chaotic good. > > > > Which, I believe, is exactly the point that was being made. The interesting thing is why people like you would call the Clint Eastwood character chaotic good while denying Alphatians to fall under the same category? I think the peace of the gun is not generally construed to be good. Maybe - just maybe - as this is fantasy it could be said to be true. If you think this is the case, I suggest you read DotE and soak up the ambiance of the place (or read my previous email). I cant find much evidence of altruism there for the peons. Instead I find 10 lashes for insolence (a very loose term). And bear in mind - I'm not debating the ethics of the elite of Alphatian society, the 1 in 10 or whatever who happen to be a mage. (Wizards must have a hell of a lot of servants in Alphatia, what, 5 per mage on average?). I know the mages are sitting pretty. Its the majority here, the Common Peon, that I am on about. If you want to restrict your morality judgment to the mages, you may as well look at the lot of Thyatian Senators only, or perhaps Heldannic Knights in the Territories, while ignoring the populace. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:38:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Slavery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one of their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who are the customers? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:53:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Slavery] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beau wrote: > = >OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one o= f >their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who >= are the customers? Thyatis and its subject nations, primarily, would be my guess (including = all the Isle of Dawn territories, the islands, etc.) Parts west might need sl= aves, too, though I can't think of any offhand. I see it as more of a "have our business in our main center of supply" ty= pe thing, than "have our business in our main source of demand". In other wo= rds, the Iron Ring grew up in the Traladaran territories, in response (I'd say= ) to the newfound Thyatian intrusion due to the Karameikan "invasion". Harsh l= and, oppressed peoples, easy pickings. The Iron Ring catches 'em in Karameikos= , and ships 'em elsewhere. I'd venture to guess that the Iron Ring is probably = a Thyatian founded (funded?) organization at its highest levels, possibly w= ith ties to Thyatis (although its just as likely that they were merely entrepreneurs responding to a demand, and followed Stefan Karameikos into= this new land of opportunity). As for the Black Eagle, my understanding is that his ties to slavery were= primarily with/through the Iron Ring, and not as an independent slaver himself. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:55:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 1 May 2000 10:28:44 James Ruhland wrote: >> >>> Would you care to mention a nation or empire of Mystara in which slaves >are treated well? They aren't in Alphatia, but is it surprising? They are >slaves - slaves are treated 'well' anywhere, including Thyatis.<< > >Yes, but Alphatia doesn't even treat the vast majority of the rest of its >population with any consideration. So much for your argument that Alphatia >is a "liberalistic" society for everyone. When all else fails (as it has), >change the subject to other countries. . . > Oh, sure. And when you're not getting anywhere just put words in my mouth that I didn't say - I never said that 'Alphatia is a "liberalistic" society for everyone', in fact, I clearly admitted that the opposite was the case, yet if you must insist then go ahead - I'm not surprised, merely slightly disappointed. > >> > Law in Thyatis being just? Ahem! Eusebius forcing the poor to >migrate: Fair and just? << > >Yes, there is that - however, that stuff was written by someone who >obviously knew nothing about the differences between the two Empires *OR* >who *did* know but wanted to reverse their position. That person created >Un-Alphatia and Un-Thyatis: see below. > So you get to conviniently throw out canon stuff to suit your arguments, why I must stick to canon? >>>because while the commoners are still treated unjustly by the >aristocracy, at least they aren't *also* burdened by lots of other laws >that don't work either! << > > >Alphatian slave to his friend "you know, I'd like to have legal protections >against being slain out of hand, but I don't want any burdensome laws >restricting my master's ability to do whatever he wants to me. By the way, >how do you like these oozing tentacles he replaced my arms with? My master >freely insisted that I accept the change, and I was free to be transformed >into this. I don't like the tentacles, but wadda yah gonna do. If there >were restrictions on my master's liberty to do this sort of thing, he'd be >less free, and I value his freedom more than I value myself. . .and my >freedom. . ." > Oh good! Go ahead and ignore my comments and just make snide and sarcastic remarks instead... Especially after *you* asked me to share my views - I do *so* enjoy that! > >> > So in short you claim that a society not based entirely on strictly >maintained laws is automatically corrupt and evil - I'm sure the elves >would be sorry to hear that! << >> >Nope; there are two different types of laws - true Libertarianism, which >the Elves (CG) might practice, would have few laws, but they would be >focused not around giving one part of the population the "right" to treat >the other part in any way they please - those laws that would exist would >serve simply to outlaw harms to another (you can't murder your slave - and, >indeed, you can't enslave anyone in the first place, or reduce them to the >status of an opressed Servile class, because that violates their liberty) - >There might be very few laws, existing not to *curtail* the liberties of >the vast majority of the members of the society (as in Alphatia), but to >*prevent* people's liberties from being curtailed, to prevent people from >being coerced as they routinely are in Alphatia. > Why do keep bringing this up when I've already said that, no, it is not a fair law? Alphatia is not perfect, but neither are most other societies on Mystara. Are they automatically all evil because they have not done away with unjust laws? Because I don't hear you saying this about other nations on Mystara... >> This is an undead thread - it will go nowhere postive. I learned that the >first time we had it... >> >Well, if you believe that, then I'm puzzled why you're participating in it? > Not that I'm upset to have you participate, but it does seem odd that you >decry the existence of the thread but are also a enthusiastic-seeming >participant. > Because I want to end it once and for all! (Yes, I'm naive - and proud of it!) >> > Even in goody little Karameikos, the Thyatians are clearly advantaged, >while the original Traladaran population has few opportunities, << > >Of course, giving Traladara to Stefan was a bad thing, because, yes, it did >mean that the Traladarans were disposessed and reduced to second-class >status (though not nearly as badly off as such people are in Alphatia) - >they'd have been better off if Thyatis had maintained direct authority over >the place. You sound very biased here, as if Thyatis is always right no matter what. At the time I don't think the Traladarans cared at all whether it was the Thyatians or Stefan, and now they definitely wouldn't agree with you... The society is still not just and fair, though, just not as bad as it would have been if the Thyatians *had* stayed. > If you read the "History of Karameikos" portions, Thyatian rule >was what you claim Alphatian rule of areas is like - very Libertarian - the >Thyatians garrisoned the place lightly, trade increased because lawlessness >decreased, but other than that the Traladarans were aloud to live as they >pleased, with few impositions by Thyatis. Ask the Jennites of Esterhold if >they think Alphatia was a Libertarian society. . . >But, since you bring it up, what freedoms do the Traladaran's lack, but the >Alphatians have? > None. That's my point - Alphatia isn't much worse than Karameikos. In both cases the vast majority is being ruled (and oppressed?) by a small elite - yet people seem to accept that this is fine in Karameikos... (The slaves of Alphatia are a notable exception, though) >> > So at the same time you say that freedom is whatever somebody wants it >to be, but at the same time you deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners >? >> > >*I* don't deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners - Alphatian society >denies that choice to Alphatian commoners. I merely point out that >unpleasant fact, which seems to be the trouble: > Yet you said something along the lines (sorry if I misrepresent you) that 'freedom is what you make it'. You say that applies, but you also say that Alphatian commoners are never free! >>>They won't get that freedom to the extent that the aristocracy will, no, >but I still think they value it.<< > >Alphatian Servant to his friend: "You know, I highly value our master's >freedom to oppress us" > >Servant's friend: "Don't forget, we have freedom, too - like the freedom to >not be alloud to own property, and the freedom to pick who will opress us >today! We're free to pick our own master! Bully for us! I'm so glad to be >an Untermench in Alphatia, rather than a Citizen of Thyatis." > *Sigh* ! >But, you (or anyone) tell me - what are the freedoms that Alphatia's >untermenchen value, which *they* get to experience? I mean, other than >being freed of the burden of being aloud to make decisions regarding their >welfare and freedom from the burden of participating in deciding how they >are governed and treated. > They *don't* get to experience it! That's a fact! Does it mean that they don't dream of it? >I mean, you can point out that they "value freedom" as much as their >masters do, but all that does is expose a tension, a festering unresolved >problem, in Alphatian society: the vast majority of the population values >and admires freedom, gets to witness it's use (and abuse) every day, but >they aren't able to participate in this "libertarian society" themselves - >they see freedom being excersised by others, but are themselves unfree. How >do they react? > They don't! They are used to it by now, and probably accept that that is the way things must be - they weren't lucky enough to be born with a talent for magic, yet dream that they might have been. >Well, so far I suppose they've been Charmed and Zzonga drugged into passive >acceptance. But in Thyatis, the same situation (which existed under >Alphatian rule in BC 192-BC 0, and then again under Zendrol's Tyranny from >AC 0 - AC 20) fostered unrest that led to the creation of what might be >termed a much more *truely* libertarian society for the majority - Valentia >had to make membership in the Empire vollentary (see DotE Book One, >releasing Ochalea & Pearl Islands and then inviting them to vollentarily >re-join the Empire), create Citizenship, and protections for Citizens >against coersive authority, and laws that treated people irregardless of >social status, but instead on the basis of the harms they caused (read up >on 19th century Liberal theory). Of course, Slavery persisted, and other >problems emerged (the oft-cited corruption). But if either nation was >founded on principles that could be considered closer to classical >Liberal/Libertarian theory (if any Imperial/monarchical society can be so >considered), it was Thyatis, and not Alphatia, where coersion by others is >a way of life. Hell - it's not *a* way of life, it's *the* way of life. > If you could cut out the snide remarks I just might comment - as it is I use about 70% of my mental faculties on refraining from turning this into a flame war... >> Please stop this, James! It's not going anywhere and we're just repeating >ourselves. >> >Why stop an interesting discussion? Unless the point is that you should >have your say and I should be silent - yes, a truely Alphatian view of >liberty, indeed. . . > *SIGH*! >Anyhow, the real Libertarian view is that any participant in this >discussion can stop at any time - but no one can coerce another >participant, and prevent them from expressing their views. Of course, >someone *can* come in on this discussion and end it, if someone starts to >violate the minimal restrictions that apply to the MML. But that someone >isn't any old Alphatian wizard who says so, it's an authority we all freely >submitted too when we volentarily joined the MML. > (snip rest) Fine! I'll just quit now, then and delete all future messages with this title - now are you happy? - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Slavery MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one of >their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who are >the customers? Well, the Black Eagle barony had a lot of slaves as labor whether legal or not, and IIRC one of the PWAs had a slave ship headed from Karameikos to Jaibul. I would recommend the Black Rajah's land as a major slave market for the unsavory elements of most of the area between Hule and Thyatis. You can always find plenty of unsavory magic-users to buy "test subjects" in Mystara :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:02:42 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have been stung so much with multiclassing I have pretty well got rid of > it altogether. Instead everyone advances on the xp table of a fighter, and > whenever they advance a level they can choose what class they put it in. > So, your 1st level fighter upon reaching level 2 can choose to become a > level 2 fighter, or a F1 and something else at level one. > > It means that at higher level the multiclassers are punished. Under the > standard system a multiclassed character is only one or two levels below his > single classed brethren, and as a result is infinitely more powerful. This > way you could either play a 6/6 fighter mage, or a level 12 mage - which is > quite a difference. this it nice, but a bit to hard. the system listen nice. could a fighter mage cange between fighter an mage? so 1 level fighter then 1L mage then 2L fighter then 2 level Mage? IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:04:45 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, D&D is the best for encouraging teamwork. Every other game I have > seen lacks that aspect, and I like that part of D&D - everyone has there > place, no matter what, simply because a mage cannot do the job of a fighter > (and vice versa). Without classes the lines are less blurred, to the point > where there are no lines, and then some players end up sidelined. in Role Master is that stronger. a mage could wield a sword but won`t hit anything. (only with an open ended roll 96+ on D100) a mage could use armor, but the damage and casting system is more complex. a typ of mage could not cast wile carring to much. > Depends on how you define "better". If better is playing whatever you want, > unrestricted by a game system, than yeah, D&D is probably one of the worst > choices you could make. But D&D (and perhaps Shadowrun) are the only two > game systems that really foster cooperation and ensure that everyone has a > good time. Shadowrun is, IMO the worst system. a lot of people create lone wolfs you offer one mage point and thake"smartgun" and a "data link". then you are the lone wolf. with a uzi, spells and a cyberdeck. ohh and you use spellholder for better reflexe. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:08:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Slavery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one of > their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who are > the customers? > Thyatis, Alphatia, and lawbreakers in a variety of places (IIRC, someplace there's a list of places the Iron Ring "exports" to, and it includes lawbraking scum in a variety of places - IIRC, Darokin was mentioned, but I can't remember for sure). In other words, just as it was illegal for slavery to exist in the Black Eagle (per Stefan's national laws, that theoretically applied to all dominions, but with some obvious enforcement problems), others flout laws against slavery in other areas, too, but on a smaller, less notorious scale than the Black Eagle did. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > No! It's chaotic, yes, but whether it's evil or not depends on what people do << Yes, Zandor and his ilk going around flaming down anyone who looks at them crosseyed in "duels" while everyone else is frightened into inaction surely is a utopia. . .oh, wait: dystopia. That must be what you mean. Sounds a lot closer to it. >> I don't think so, at least allow me the illusion that it just might on Mystara ;) << Oh, it might - but nothing in DotE suggests that Alphatia is such a place. Far from it, in fact. > >a) are duels to the death? > > Usually yes. > In Alphatia, all duels are to the death (p.15, Player's Guide to Alphatia, under "Duels") - not "usually". > >b) can the underdog legitimately back out of a duel to avoid getting > >fragged, and receive the backing of the law? > > Sure, but he does lose face and thus social standing, though, that would, of course, be preferable than being killed by a more powerful spellcaster. > In Alphatia, the only way to back out of a duel is to get the challenger to withdraw the challenge - in other words, give him what he wants (knuckle under to his power). Otherwise, you must duel (as I said, Tylion IV didn't have the option to simply say "thanks, but no thanks, boys - I think I'll refuse your challenges and stay Emperor"). As it says (same page), "few magic-users like to duel; many have to at least once." not ". . .many chose to do so at least once. . ." but "many *have" to. . ." Rob wrote: > though even then they have to tread on their toes. But at least everyone is > theoretically equal (if you are hard working and study hard you can advance > in power and therefore position). > Actually, that's not quite true, either, since in Alphatia magical talent is largely heritable, their Aristocracy is no more open than other hereditary aristocracies - it's not a matter of "studing hard" to rise in power and position - you're either born with it, or you aren't. Yes, there are exceptions, but there are exceptions in most hereditary nobility systems, too (dudes who struggle and manage to achieve promotion into the nobility). Otherwise, as you say: > > BUT - what about those who have no innate skill at magic? By virtue of > their birth they are relegated to Offal status. > In other words, you're not "theoretically equal" like all Citizens are in Thyatis - you're theoretically and legally Untermench, with far fewer rights and freedoms than your Ubermench superiors. That's about as "theoretically equal" as Sind's caste system - you're both a theoretical and actual wog: > (Sounds like some sort of coolie to me - or perhaps for those who know > Paranoia, Infrared Scum) > Exactly. I guess, if you're "lucky" they'll activate your clone to serve them after slaughtering you for the fifth time, too - but death might be the only "freedom" you enjoy, so why want to be cloned? > Imagine all the Paranoia style bootlicking here. . . > That's why there's so much fawning and apparent happyness - and why the Aristocrats can pretend it's a wonderful utopia and pat themselves on the back for having a "greater sense of justice than those non-Alphatian Mystaran scum" - Happyness is Mandatory - Are you Happy, Citizen? > Alphatia Above All! > Translated into German: "Alphatia Uber Alles" - yes, a true motto of enlightened, utopian libertarianism. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:28:29 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Slavery MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Thyatis, Alphatia, and lawbreakers in a variety of places (IIRC, someplace >there's a list of places the Iron Ring "exports" to, and it includes >lawbraking scum in a variety of places - IIRC, Darokin was mentioned, but I >can't remember for sure). In other words, just as it was illegal for >slavery to exist in the Black Eagle (per Stefan's national laws, that >theoretically applied to all dominions, but with some obvious enforcement >problems), others flout laws against slavery in other areas, too, but on a >smaller, less notorious scale than the Black Eagle did. Slavery's also "legal" in some areas of Atrughuin, Jaibul, and perhaps one or more of the City-States. But yes, a lot of the clientele should be lawbreakers from the more "civilized" areas. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:27:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Jaibul Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is there any published information on Jaibul or on Sind generally? I'm thinking agents of the Black Rajah might make for interesting adversaries at some point. (And I'm already thinking how best to implement some Indian-flavored new spells, including one that would give the subject two more arms to fight with.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:49:31 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Jaibul MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Is there any published information on Jaibul or on Sind generally? I'm >thinking agents of the Black Rajah might make for interesting adversaries >at some point. (And I'm already thinking how best to implement some >Indian-flavored new spells, including one that would give the subject two >more arms to fight with.) Well, there's information in the Almanacs, but I assume you want something a bit more detailed :-) Champions of Mystara is the best accessory by far. There are some on this list who don't appreciate Ann Dupuis's habit of making peoples especially powerful (50% of Jaibul's populace are magic-users), and I generally tone some things down a tad, but CoM is well-worth picking up if you can find it. Otherwise, you should at least read Haldemar's run-in with the Black Rajah and his adventures in Sind in the Voyage of the Princess Ark Series. If you don't have the Dragon Archive yet, I'd recommend it almost as highly as CoM for Mystara materials. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Oh, sure. And when you're not getting anywhere just put words in my mouth that I didn't say - I never said that 'Alphatia is a "liberalistic" society for everyone', in fact, I clearly admitted that the opposite was the case, yet if you must insist then go ahead - I'm not surprised, merely slightly disappointed. > You continually implied that the peon-minions enjoyed the society, too, and persist in doing so. No, you haven't come right out and denied that they lack the very freedom you're placing so much emphasis on. But neither have you answered the question: what freedoms to Alphatians enjoy that, say, our poor, much derided Karameikans do not? The freedom to kill the random odd slave, if and only if you're an Aristocrat, for one example, but I hardly see the potential examples as praiseworthy of a "utopia" filled with people so just that they don't need laws to stand in their way (as you describe it as being, at least in your imagination - and imagination is what matters here, because these are imaginary countries in the first place). So, what liberties do the Alphatians enjoy that the inhabitants of the Five Shires do not? > So you get to conviniently throw out canon stuff to suit your arguments, why I must stick to canon? > Because you completely ignore it. I at least explain why one particular's author's ignorance on the subject makes what was penned by that author "suspect to say the least", especially since in most cases, as I was trying to point out (though in a semi-humorous way; I suppose I should have been more explicit), the writings of that author are diametrically and completely at odds with previously existing materiel, to the point of risible inaccuracy and deceptiveness. But, ok - you point out what in canon backs up those references of that author to "Alphatian Imperial Law". Haven't done it, because it can't be done. Indeed, as I pointed out in a private mail to you some time ago, it was Xanthus' actions that were in full accordance with Alphatia's "Imperial Law". You didn't refute that, because it can't be refuted. > > Oh good! Go ahead and ignore my comments and just make snide and sarcastic remarks instead... Especially after *you* asked me to share my views - I do *so* enjoy that! > That's not a sarcastic remark, that's a humorous example. Is it an inappropriate one? Nope - *that's* Alphatia. And, yes, feel free to share your converse opinion, and refute my opinion with examples from canon - as I've supported both my arguments, and my refutations of your arguments, with appropriate references. OR you can re-start up the "Alphatia Re-Design Project," and we can transform Alphatia into something other than it is described as being, which does seem to be the fond desire of many, and which people are free to do. But please don't pretend that DotE says the opposite of what it says. > > Because I want to end it once and for all! (Yes, I'm naive - and proud of it!) > Well, anyone is free to stop participating at any time. I'm free to write on this subject, or to not write on this subject. You're free to respond to it, or not respond to it. NEITHER of us is free to say that the other must be silent on this or any other Mystaran topic - NEITHER of us has the authority to declare a subject "end[ed] once and for all". > > You sound very biased here, as if Thyatis is always right no matter what. Heh, one could say that of you and the Alphatians, but I haven't. And yet, again, I'm the one that gets decried as the big, insulting meanie. How interesting. . . > > None. That's my point - Alphatia isn't much worse than Karameikos. > Au contrare, my good fellow. At least in Karameikos the aristocrats don't have the absolute power of life and death over the peons, to take just one example. And Karameikan peons can wear their clothing and hair in any style they want - a far cry from "liberal" Alphatia. Much as I don't like Stefan, the social order he designed is in all ways better than that of Alphatia, and in some ways better than that of Thyatis (no citizenship or representative body in Karameikos, but no slavery either.) > > Yet you said something along the lines (sorry if I misrepresent you) that 'freedom is what you make it'.<< Where did I say that? I did say that the Servile classes of Alphatia have the freedom to get away with whatever they don't get caught doing, but that's hardly the same as actual freedom, especially since the penalties are so severe and unforgiving. >> You say that applies, but you also say that Alphatian commoners are never free!<< The servile classes of Alphatia are not. See, this is why I have to keep making that point: on the one hand you say you've "admited" that to being true, but on the other hand your other arguments then contradict that claimed admission. So I can't tell if you're sincere in admitting that life sucks for the unfree bulk of Alphatian society, or if you're sincere in claiming Alphatian society is a libertarian utopia for everyone. > > They *don't* get to experience it! That's a fact! Does it mean that they don't dream of it? > Sure - wogs can dream, but not do - but that does not make for a utopian society. Indeed, it makes for a society full of potential and actual friction. They want something they are denied having - and this is the Alphatian utopia? > > If you could cut out the snide remarks I just might comment - as it is I use about 70% of my mental faculties on refraining from turning this into a flame war...<< > Since there wasn't a snide remark in the paragraph that preceeded this remark, just comments that you didn't like because they expressed my opinion, straightforwardly but not insultingly, I guess I can only take that remark the way I take your remarks about ending this conversation. > > Fine! I'll just quit now, then and delete all future messages with this title - now are you happy? > Nope. Doesn't make me happy at all. You should participate if you want, and not participate if you don't want, but *my* intention isn't to silence those who disagree with me. That's why I haven't insisted that some topics be closed. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:25:26 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-01 11:33:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > > Law in Thyatis being just? Ahem! Eusebius forcing the poor to migrate: Fair and just? << Yes, there is that - however, that stuff was written by someone who obviously knew nothing about the differences between the two Empires *OR* who *did* know but wanted to reverse their position. That person created Un-Alphatia and Un-Thyatis: see below. >> Surprisingly, that action of forcing the poor to migrate says some interesting things about Thyatis. First, it shows that the leaders of Thyatian society do have a pragmatic compassion for their poorest citizens -- compassionate in that they don't want anyone to starve, but pragmatic in that they see real difficulties in trying to import additional food. Second, it shows that the poorest people in Thyatis must consider it a pretty good place to live, given that they have to be forced to emigrate even in the face of imminent starvation. Here is my take on the "Un-Thyatis" and "Un-Alphatia" pictures from the WotI and later eras: Un-Thyatis: During and after WotI the Thyatian Empire went through a number of misfortunes that put great stress on its society. Filter the ugliest events through hostile propaganda and you have the picture that is presented of "Un-Thyatis". Un-Alphatia: Setting aside the most obvious cause of the improved image of Alphatia ("How can the heroes of the Princess Ark be bad guys?"), the sinking of Alphatia was a great psychic shock to both the survivors on the surface and the resurrected inhabitants who wound up in the Hollow World. On the surface, the brief reign of Zandor the Mad and the reduced proportion of spellcasters among the general population might indeed have caused massive upheavals in the Alphatian social structure. Meanwhile, in the Hollow World the Spell of Preservation put up obvious roadblocks to Alphatian attempts to push the natives around -- but that same Spell of Preservation should have worked against Alphatia in the Hollow World adopting the same reforms that their outer world counterparts apparently did. The propaganda that painted everything about Thyatis in a negative light would have painted everything about Alphatia in a positive light. Still, if we look past the propaganda, we can reach the following conclusions: 1) The outer world NACE has indeed changed Alphatian society for the better, but they are far less experienced in liberal government than such nations as Darokin. Like the emerging democracies of the real world, they should be dealing with major problems in terms of revolts, corruption, and reactionary parties trying to restore the bad old days. 2) The Alphatian Empire in the Hollow World has indeed become quite "enlightened" in their dealings with the Hollow World natives, but within their own floating continent the "Spellcasters rule!" mentality should remain unchallenged. By its very nature the floating continent is too isolated for us to have any source of information about it other than the propaganda put out by the empress Eriadna. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:25:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-01 8:06:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IBON@GMX.DE writes: << this it nice, but a bit to hard. the system listen nice. could a fighter mage cange between fighter an mage? so 1 level fighter then 1L mage then 2L fighter then 2 level Mage? >> That is in fact the "best" way to do it -- if neither the fighter nor mage class is a "preferred" class for that race, you need to keep the levels within one level of each other to avoid an XP penalty, according to at least some rumors. The only classes for which such switching might be restricted are the monk and paladin classes -- for them, apparently, once you start gaining levels in that class you must keep doing so without advancing in any other class or else you are forever frozen at the highest level attained as a monk or paladin and can only advance in other classes from there on out. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:14:39 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a retort that a Glantrian could make about accusations of how they treat dwarves: "So how do you guys treat kobolds? Our Prince Kol would be very interested in a justification of YOUR practices in that area...." In a message dated 2000-05-01 7:10:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: << This notion that there are those who "cannot" learn magic has never been proven; there are dullards who have learned it and geniuses who have not. Given that old preconceptions about who can and can't learn magic have been dashed with the crowning of Prince Kol -- a member of a species that non-Glantrian racists historically viewed as incapable of attaining the higher forms of consciousness needed to perform magic -- how can one honestly say that anyone is incapable? >> Now, now -- there are many examples in Glantri of people who earnestly tried really hard to learn magic but just couldn't do it, so laziness is not the only explanation for their failure. In any case, warriors are the second most respected class in Glantri as long as they "know their place". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:14:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Paths to Immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-01 5:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Mr.Dead@BTINTERNET.COM writes: << In my campaign, I have a Paladin of Vanya that's about to start to look into the Paths of Immortality. This paladin could be described as one of Vanya's more dedicated disciples (I prefer to think of him as a member of the Church's lunatic fringe), and follows Vanya's teachings to the letter (and I mean that literally!). Here's the problem. Being so dedicated to Vanya, he will not entertain being sponsored by any other Immortal, and he is the embodiment of the Epic Hero (travelling the countyside righting wrongs and going on epic quests etc. etc.). >> One possibility would be to set the example of Donar/Thor before him. Donar was inspired by the Immortal Odin but became an Immortal of the Sphere of Energy under Ixion. If you can posit some lesser Immortal of the Sphere of Thought who greatly admires Vanya and perhaps serves as her "herald", maybe your player could be inspired to seek out that Immortal as a sponsor. If that doesn't work, maybe you could consider having that character pursue Immortality in the Sphere of Time as a "kingmaker". Thus, while his chosen successor is busy ruling the kingdom, the paladin is continually going on adventures to seek out and destroy various threats to the kingdom. To save time on the rearing of that successor, make the successor a nephew, niece, or younger sibling of the paladin whom the paladin can be posited to have mentored during some of his "down time". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:14:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Response from an Alphatian nobleman: "I resent these suggestions that we Alphatian nobles are evil scum who do not care about the common people. Nothing could be further from the truth! We love the peasants!" "Pull!" he yells. "As I said, we love the common people!" (Stolen from "History of the World Part 1") ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > There is a retort that a Glantrian could make about accusations of how > they treat dwarves: "So how do you guys treat kobolds? > There's a difference between dwarves and kobolds? *puzzled look* I thought kobolds were just scaly, beardless dwarves. Or was it that halflings were just scale-less, fat kobolds? I'm so confused. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dave Keyser Subject: D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was leafing through the Preregistration book for Gen Con 2000, and on page 34, I finally learned who wrote the last two books of the Penhalgion Trilogy. According to the blurb, they were "not bestsellers, but good reads nonetheless." Could someone going to GenCon this year do me a favor? If you run into Kevin, spill a huge glass of tomato juice on him. When you apologize for your clumsy behavior add something like, "This is such a disaster, almost as bad as that book The Fall of Magic." Ok, I am only kidding about the tomato juice. Dave Keyser ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:54:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:14 5/2/00 EDT, David Knott wrote: >Now, now -- there are many examples in Glantri of people who earnestly >tried really hard to learn magic but just couldn't do it, so laziness is not >the only explanation for their failure. In any case, warriors are the second >most respected class in Glantri as long as they "know their place". It is certainly politically correct to "agree" that they are "unable" to learn magic. But, as you say, if they are not ashamed to have done less than they are capable, there are roles available for those who are less than full citizens. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:10:43 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Technique for building NPCs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I could share my own techniques in building NPC's, if anyone is interested. By the way, Beau's way is interesting too, and I may apply this to NPC's in the future. My way of handling NPC's may be used in two occasions: when a PC has to be fully detailed, so he must be fully alive, and when a PC makes just a slight appearance in the adventure, so you haven't managed to create him, but the players absolutely want you to describe them. The main idea is very simple: you choose a person you know, and use him as the background for the character, giving him similar attributes and a similar role. This can be done not only with persons you know, but also actors, famous singers, litterature figures etc. As an example, IMC, one of my players has a girlfriend who is a famous singer in Corunglain, and she is like Jacqui McShee of the group Pentangle ( an English folk group who plays traditional tunes as well as folk jazz); she performs in an inn where the innkeeper is none other than the Italian actor Bud Spencer; in Rhoona, there is a tavern where the innkeeper is Conan! This is a very easy way to build extremely fast characters, without stats or other things: you only need to note who the NPC is going to be like... And if you need good details, it's always easier to resort to people you know, because you have in mind persons with real personalities, and characters come out more lively and realistic (in fact they are REAL!). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:51:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: > The only problem with a fiend is, when played properly, they can = stomp > all over even high level parties. The taking of the all spells option = for > 100TP makes even the 'weakest' more than most can handle. Those who = also > have enough TP for a few 'Reduce Saving Throw' spells as well just = waltz > through the suddenly dead PCs. Whilst this is also true to an extent = with > any other 'monster', the ability for the GM to say, "Save against > Disintegration at -20", puts them in a whole new category. And if that isn't a totally munchkinified application of the rules, I = don't know what is... I sincerely hope that no DMs abuse the rules in = this way "just because they can" or because it's "proper" (huh?!?). = Obviously the rules were not written to encourage people to create this = kind of monster, and I'm sure that Beau can create a "fiend" that is = much more interesting (not that I get the impression, he wants to do = that), should he want to. But yes, I will grant you that it's possible = to create these super-monsters and stay within the rules; I just don't = see any reason why anyone would do that. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:52:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It means that at higher level the multiclassers are punished. Under the > > standard system a multiclassed character is only one or two levels below his > > single classed brethren, and as a result is infinitely more powerful. This > > way you could either play a 6/6 fighter mage, or a level 12 mage - which is > > quite a difference. > > this it nice, but a bit to hard. > the system listen nice. > could a fighter mage cange between fighter an mage? > so 1 level fighter then 1L mage then 2L fighter then 2 level Mage? Yep, he could. By the time he would be a level 2/2 fighter mage though, a single classed character would be level 4. Its not like dual classing where you cannot change - every time you go up a level you choose which class you want it to be in. I havn't gone the whole hog towards liberalism, so demihumans are still limited by their multiclass options - elves cannot be mage/priests for example (except for shadow elves) but humans can be whatever they want (yay! a reason to play a human!). I also give humans a +20% experience point bonus, but thats another story ;) - reduced by 10% for each class in excess of one they have (so a double class human has +10%, and a triple classed or more is unmodified). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:59:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: D&D3, Mystara3. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Depends on how you define "better". If better is playing whatever you want, > > unrestricted by a game system, than yeah, D&D is probably one of the worst > > choices you could make. But D&D (and perhaps Shadowrun) are the only two > > game systems that really foster cooperation and ensure that everyone has a > > good time. > > Shadowrun is, IMO the worst system. a lot of people create lone wolfs > you offer one mage point and thake"smartgun" > and a "data link". then you are the lone wolf. > with a uzi, spells and a cyberdeck. > ohh and you use spellholder for better reflexe. It depends in Shadowrun. But it usually encourages teamwork simply by the lethality of the system. You need a mage, a street sam and a rigger at least - and they can't really duplicate each other as you say (the mage can't duplicate either of the other two because of the essence implications - and if you have a VCR taking up all your essence you cant really be a hard street sam). Magically active deckers have various penalties when they are in the Matrix, so they won't be as powerful as a real decker. Plus you really need resources A and sink it all to buy a good deck (MPCP 6 or 7) as decking is tough - if you want to crack Orange hosts you need at least 6 or 7 with a math SPU. Usual SR party I see is a street sam with essence less than 1, a rigger, a mage who uses smart goggles and has an untouched essence of 6, and a decker with resources A maxed out with a good deck. You can make lone wolves, but you end up being a jack of all trades master of none really - not as good as specialist. And SR is a lethal system, you really need to be the best at whatever you do. But anyway, this isn't a Shadowrun list so this will be my last post on the subject... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:45:08 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Slavery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Darokin allows indentured servitude for debtors, so you could "legally" export slaves there by forging a criminal record (there'd probably be a lively underground industry in this). Also, I think Glantri allows slaves (at least humanoids). >From: Patrick Sullivan >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:28:29 -0700 > > >Thyatis, Alphatia, and lawbreakers in a variety of places (IIRC, >someplace > >there's a list of places the Iron Ring "exports" to, and it includes > >lawbraking scum in a variety of places - IIRC, Darokin was mentioned, but >I > >can't remember for sure). In other words, just as it was illegal for > >slavery to exist in the Black Eagle (per Stefan's national laws, that > >theoretically applied to all dominions, but with some obvious enforcement > >problems), others flout laws against slavery in other areas, too, but on >a > >smaller, less notorious scale than the Black Eagle did. > > >Slavery's also "legal" in some areas of Atrughuin, Jaibul, and perhaps one >or more of the City-States. But yes, a lot of the clientele should be >lawbreakers from the more "civilized" areas. > >Patrick > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:48:43 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Can fiends cast Immortal-level spells? I thought they were limited to 9th level. >From: Jacob Skytte >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:51:17 +0200 > >Paul George Dooley wrote: > > > The only problem with a fiend is, when played properly, they can >stomp > > all over even high level parties. The taking of the all spells option >for > > 100TP makes even the 'weakest' more than most can handle. Those who also > > have enough TP for a few 'Reduce Saving Throw' spells as well just waltz > > through the suddenly dead PCs. Whilst this is also true to an extent >with > > any other 'monster', the ability for the GM to say, "Save against > > Disintegration at -20", puts them in a whole new category. > >And if that isn't a totally munchkinified application of the rules, I don't >know what is... I sincerely hope that no DMs abuse the rules in this way >"just because they can" or because it's "proper" (huh?!?). Obviously the >rules were not written to encourage people to create this kind of monster, >and I'm sure that Beau can create a "fiend" that is much more interesting >(not that I get the impression, he wants to do that), should he want to. >But yes, I will grant you that it's possible to create these super-monsters >and stay within the rules; I just don't see any reason why anyone would do >that. > >Jacob Skytte >scythe@wanadoo.dk > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:10:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Slavery In-Reply-To: <20000502094508.96528.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, Eyal Fleminger wrote: > Darokin allows indentured servitude for debtors, so you could "legally" > export slaves there by forging a criminal record (there'd probably be a > lively underground industry in this). Also, I think Glantri allows slaves > (at least humanoids). I agree with your theory on transforming slaves into indentured servants. The Iron Ring and similar organizations probably have good contacts in the Darokinian buerocracy. The largest market is probably Thyatis. Slaves would be a status symbol among Thyatians, and the holding of slaves is not limited to noblemen. Also, able men and women will always be needed in the Arenas.. I wrote an article on slavery in Mystara last year. It is available on dnd.starflung.com H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:12:37 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Alphatia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear people, I have just received (today that is) Champions of Mystara, Wrath of the Immortals and I bought Dawn of the Emperors as well. I haven't read them through yet, but I glanced at the discription of Alphatia and Thyatis (which I really liked, by the way). According to the PWA III and Joshuan's Book of Facts Alphatia disappeared under the sea (to the Hollow world?). My question is when did it dissapear? I do have another question: My campaign is set in 1012 AC do you think I could make Alphatia still be there (the PCs don't know about the history of the Know World, yet). I thought that I could set this disaster a couple of years later. Do you forsee any problems? Or is it simple imporssible? Regards, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:37:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Starting a crusade against other members of the same faith isn't all that > far-fetched. The Heldannic Knights presumably see Vanya differently from her > other followers (they also have a separate symbol for her) and they may well > consider other branches of the faith heretics (look what happens in Narvaez, > or for tht matter, the religous wars in Europe between christians). > in support of this the spanish armada that sailed to invade england was technically a crusade, as it had the blessing of the pope. who wanted to see the protestant english put down and a catholic ruler put in place. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Slavery Beau wrote: > OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one of >their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who are >the customers? Hmmm...here are some ideas: 1. Alphatia might buy slaves if their own supply ever runs short. 2. Ylari emirs might like to add a couple of eunuchs to their household, or a harem girl or two (if no one promising can be found close to home) 3. Slaves might be trans-shipped to Jaibul, where they could find themselves in Hule. 4. Some isolated plantation in Ierendi might actually have slaves - who knows? 5. Wealthy Thyatians might try to acquire a slave or two. Does this help? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society ought tobeconsidered Chaotic Evil In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I see it just the opposite way: The Alphatians might have an even > stronger morality than most, and if so they need no laws to guide them - > they would already know what's right and wrong! That's a very twisted path of logic. It is not morality to say "to each their own, if it feels good do it" - in the words of G.K. Chesterton, "art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." If we tell everyone to draw their own lines, we get a chaotic scribble, not morality. > That's the philosophy > anyway, and of course it doesn't always work (or perhaps only rarely) And since it doesn't work, we can rightly label Alphatia as immoral. It serves as a great lesson than libertarianism/libertinism ain't a solution, but rather a problem. > but it does mean that the responsibility of making their society a good > one lies very much in the hands of the individual. Which runs totally counter to any moral code. Morality means admitting there's some standard by which we should be judged other than our own selfish one. To follow the libertine approach is saying "I know best" and denying any responsbility to others. > >But I guess it could be argued that those are merely semantic destinctions. > >Anyhow, "libertine" sounds at least slightly better, I guess. > > > I was thinking of a system of government that exists only to prevent > utter chaos and anarchy - strict laws and strong authorities are > undesired and people are left to find the basis for a good society > themselves... Sounds like it highly condones libertine/hedonistic approaches to me - which is how we arrive with a culture of elitist druggie slavers trying to colonize the world and force everyone to adhere to their gutter mentality. BTW, isn't this the 50th time or so this topic has come up? How much do we gain by going over it yet again? - Mischa "How can there be any good in goodbye?" -- "The Music Man" by Meredith Willson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:29:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000429121950.0079fe30@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > OK, now for my questions: Is Alphaks an appropriate evil diety for > Traladaran militants to have called upon to eject the Thyatians, shortly > after they conquered the territory? What sort of entity might he send to > the Traladarans (it has to be something that could survive several decades > of being imprisoned in the keep)? Any ideas on what might motivate the elf > who freed it? Any additional information about the Callari that would be > appropriate? I agree with Patrick and others that Alphaks probably isn�t the ideal Immortal for this job. However, he does love death and destruction so it is possible that he would be involved. Orcus is an ancient enemy of Traladara/Karameikos. If the Traldarans were to ally themselves with this Immortal, it would be very similar to a christian turning to the devil for help. This would be very interesting. Orcus would probably send gnoll-like fiends. Demogorgon is an ancient ally and rival to Orcus. I have always associated Demogorgon with lizardlike creatures, proabably because he is woprshipped by the Gatormen of the Savage Coast. He could send a Gatormanlike fiend or a Dragon. (maybe a night dragon?) Thanatos is a good one, although perhaps overused. I dont see Thanatos becoming directly involved in this situation, although if he did, there is no telling what creature he might send. Probably someting subtle...like a lich or Vampire Lord. Whatever creature is sent, it would probably be something intelligent enough to persuade the elf into freeing it. The Vampire seems likely here, although something must have been preventing it from using its gaseous form. For more information on Callarii elves, check out my article on The Elves of Mystara at http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc/mystara.html H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:31:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Slavery In-Reply-To: <200005021306.JAA02580@freenet10.carleton.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:06 5/2/00 -0400, Geoff wrote: >1. Alphatia might buy slaves if their own supply ever runs short. >2. Ylari emirs might like to add a couple of eunuchs to their household, >or a harem girl or two (if no one promising can be found close to home) >3. Slaves might be trans-shipped to Jaibul, where they could find >themselves in Hule. >4. Some isolated plantation in Ierendi might actually have slaves - who knows? >5. Wealthy Thyatians might try to acquire a slave or two. > >Does this help? Yep! BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:44:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable At 16:29 5/2/00 +0200, H=E5vard wrote: >Orcus is an ancient enemy of Traladara/Karameikos. If the Traldarans were >to ally themselves with this Immortal, it would be very similar to a >christian turning to the devil for help. This would be very interesting. >Orcus would probably send gnoll-like fiends. > >Demogorgon is an ancient ally and rival to Orcus. I have always associated >Demogorgon with lizardlike creatures, proabably because he is woprshipped >by the Gatormen of the Savage Coast. He could send a Gatormanlike fiend or >a Dragon. (maybe a night dragon?) My problem with using these two in my campaigns is that all my players are veterans of 1E AD&D and if I pulled out one of these two demon princes (yes, yes, I know Orcus has gone through a lot of changes since then), they would be instantly jerked out of this new-to-them world. Maybe at some point, down the line, reintroducing these two figures would be appropriate, but for now, I don't want to break the spell. (I actually have the same problem with the name "Thanatos," Immortals that share the same names as Norse dieties and Ierendi's tourism industry, both of which feel like the writers are sitting in the room with you, giggling a little, when used.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:51:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max Monas wrote: > > I have just received (today that is) Champions of Mystara, Wrath of the > Immortals and I bought Dawn of the Emperors as well. I haven't read them > through yet, but I glanced at the discription of Alphatia and Thyatis (which > I really liked, by the way). According to the PWA III and Joshuan's Book of > Facts Alphatia disappeared under the sea (to the Hollow world?). My question > is when did it dissapear? > I do have another question: My campaign is set in 1012 AC do you think I > could make Alphatia still be there (the PCs don't know about the history of > the Know World, yet). I thought that I could set this disaster a couple of > years later. Do you forsee any problems? Or is it simple imporssible? Nothing is impossible. IYC, you can do whatever you want. ;-) Despite owning WotI, I don't ever plan to use the adventure parts -- I like Alphatia and would rather not have it go *poof* in my campaign. And, I might add, I like the Alphatia AS DESCRIBED in DoE -- Degenerate, Chaotic bits and all [Hi James!] Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web� Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:44:38 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein In-Reply-To: <390E62E2.6446DB8A@palmchip.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 1 May 2000, Dave Keyser wrote: > I was leafing through the Preregistration book for Gen Con 2000, and > on page 34, I finally learned who wrote the last two books of the Penhalgion > Trilogy. According to the blurb, they were "not bestsellers, but good reads > nonetheless." Interesting piece of fact. Do you know who wrote the first novel? The first one wasn�t that bad IMO.. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:50:48 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000502074419.007acca0@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > My problem with using these two in my campaigns is that all my > players are veterans of 1E AD&D and if I pulled out one of these two > demon princes (yes, yes, I know Orcus has gone through a lot of > changes since then), they would be instantly jerked out of this > new-to-them world. Maybe at some point, down the line, reintroducing > these two figures would be appropriate, but for now, I don't want to > break the spell. > (I actually have the same problem with the name "Thanatos," > Immortals that share the same names as Norse dieties and Ierendi's > tourism industry, both of which feel like the writers are sitting in > the room with you, giggling a little, when used.) I know what youre talking about. I think the best sollution here is to simply change the names and keep the Immortals. There are several alternative names to most immortals available in various books, the Savage Coast material is one good source. The Norse Immortals are still problematic at least for me since even if I changed the names, my players would recognize them by descriptions. Ierendis tourism industry is pretty easy to ditch from the game though. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Facts Alphatia disappeared under the sea (to the Hollow world?). My question > is when did it dissapear? > AC 1009, on account of one of those hubris things (on the part of various people) that always leads to such things in Greek tragedies. Details are in WotI (Wrath of the Immortals). > I do have another question: My campaign is set in 1012 AC do you think I > could make Alphatia still be there? > There's no reason why not. You control the destiny of your campaing - what's possible and impossible is for you to determine. So if it makes more sense in your campaign for Alphatia to still be there, then it should be. You don't have to follow someone else's script in *your* campaign if you don't want to. Since you don't have the Wrath of the Immortals set, it should be easy for you to keep things as they were pre-WotI, since you don't have access to the changes that appeared. NOTE HOWEVER: the continued presence of Alphatia as it was pre-Wrath (and Thyatis likewise as it was pre-Wrath - and this will also affect Karameikos, I.E. the Karameikan School of Magecraft won't exist and Tylion/Terari won't live in Karameikos, etc) will have an effect on the degree to which you can follow the "event scripts" in the PWAs (TAUTOLOGY OF THE DAY: if things are different, then things tend to be different). However, that shouldn't be too big of a problem for you to work with. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > don't want to. Since you don't have the Wrath of the Immortals set, it > should be easy for you to keep things as they were pre-WotI, > Oh, wait - I just re-read your original message and you *do* have Wrath of the Immortals now. Anyhow, since you do, your questions as to why Alphatia no longer exists on the surface, etc, will all find fuller answers when you've had a chance to read it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein In-Reply-To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= 's message of Tue, 2 May 2000 16:44:38 +0200 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) H=E5vard writes; >Interesting piece of fact. Do you know who >wrote the first novel? The first one wasn=B4t that >bad IMO.. Wasn't it Dori Watry? I liked the first book, hated the others, thank the Immortals I didn't buy them. I still think that both writers should have paid more attention to Gaz 1. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers) Knight of the Square Table http://members.tripod.com/~CronoCloud/index.html Member of the Knights Knoble http://knightsknoble.cjb.net ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:24:40 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff Gander wrote: > >2. Ylari emirs might like to add a couple of eunuchs to their household,= >or a harem girl or two (if no one promising can be found close to home) Heck, they might be intrigued by the 'exotic' look of the Traladaran wome= n. (As compared to the Alasiyan women). Good idea, Geoff! Also, Northern Reaches jarls may purchase some 'housecarls'- Oxstland (pre-1013) would be a good place, as would Soderfjord. Some unscrupulous Norwold barons might like some slave labor. In the not too distant past, the kingdom of Essuria (on the Denagoth plat= eau) might have been a viable slave market... although, now I think about it, probably not for the Iron Ring, which (as I theorized earlier) probably d= idn't actually come into existence until Karameikos came to Traladara- c.970. As James pointed out, there are likely places in Darokin that traffic in slaves- though not as blatantly as the Black Eagle. Probably one or two o= f the Borderland territories might rely on slave labor (some unscrupulous going= s on take place in the Borderlands- Lucan the tax man, in the adventure in PC1= : Tall Tales of the Wee Folk.) Slaves could also be exported to the Savage Coast, or south to Davania. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:22:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Despite owning WotI, I don't ever plan to use the adventure parts -- I > like Alphatia and would rather not have it go *poof* in my campaign. And, > I might add, I like the Alphatia AS DESCRIBED in DoE -- Degenerate, Chaotic > bits and all [Hi James!] > Hey, I do, too - I just don't like the new, panglossian interpretation of it all (wherin the motto changes from "Alphatia Above All" to "Best of All Possible Worlds". The degeneracy, chaos, nefarious scheming wizards (or, in another place, nefarious scheming Senators) - the dark underbelly is what generates adventure oportunities. The disconect disturbs me, in the sense that, as I think I've mentioned before, frequently the same folks who insist on describing it in entirely positive terms then lament the fact that one must leave the new Alphatia in order to adventure - they tend to blame it on the fact that the FCA is "cut off" from everything else. But the place is certainly large enough to generate adventure oportunities internally. There's a reason the "new, unimproved Alphatia" doesn't tend to, though. Which brings me around to Mischa's query: > > BTW, isn't this the 50th time or so this topic has come up? How much do > we gain by going over it yet again? > Firstly: Well, I know I gain insights every time a topic is re-aired (as for what those insights might be - the insights I gain are for me to know. Get your own insights. 8-)~ Secondly: IMO, it's highly useful (here's a hint at one of the insights!) in gaining perspectives on Alphatian (or, conversely, Thyatian) mindsets - sure, the various "debaters" aren't characters in the game world - in theory we're supposed to know better, we're gamers who are looking at these places from the "outside". However, one can gleen useful in-character stuff, because people often argue in ways that would certainly fit the mindsets of "actual" persons living in the country (If some of us can believe that Alphatia is a utopian paradise, then what is Eriadna likely to believe? Or any given typical Alphatian aristocrat?) Something new is said each time, or at least phrased in a new way, and much of it can be used as the beliefs expressed by NPCs (folks are free to gleen whatever they want of what I've said for some rabid Thyatian apologist and use it in their campaigns). It also forms a certain "backdrop impression" - to circle back to my original lengthy post that began the discussion of this time, much of it's points got lost in discussion of this or that detail. But a main point was that the Alphatians don't recognize any problems, and thus would see no need for changes/reforms to fix things that might actually be problems. We've seen that premise in action: if those "in charge" go so far as to see their society as a utopian one, then why would they change anything? Thus, what would propel, what is the imputus behind initiating some of the reforms/changes that have been discussed? They seem to come out of the blue, and seem to be very odd, odd in the sense that if you're already living in utopia (or believe you are), then almost by definition any changes that are initiated could only create a deviation from the utopian state of your society, and thus be changes for the worst (why mess with perfection incarnate)? So if one holds such beliefs about the condition of one's society, one wouldn't be a reformer. On the other hand, there is a seeming recognition that this or that aspect might seem bad on the surface and might need changing - but the expressed outlook of the Alphatian ruling classes is that "we have such a refined sense of justice that we don't need additional laws or regulations, so things that seem to ignorant outsiders such as rabid Thyatians like they are bad or wrong and need changes are simply examples of our superior sense of ethics - we don't need the rules that they need, because we behave better." Such people wouldn't change anything. On the other hand, if Wrath and it's aftermath (famine, the annual slave revolt, fragmentation and seccesion) have done anything, it's to rub, nay, grind the noses of the Thyatians into the rotten underbelly of their society - they can't pretend they're living in "The Best of All Possible Worlds" - if they ever did before (even DotE shows that there is a dawning recognition that things aren't as they could be, "the Empire in Decline", at least among a certain disillute, Alphatian-like proportion of the Thyatian nobility). So, if you were to look at things like this, which place do you think would most likely be spured to attempt to change how they're doing things? The place that thinks everything is fine (especially now that the "few rotten apples like Zandor and Xanthus are gone"), or the place that can't go on pretending everything is working out for the best? Thirdly: Since when has there been a requirement that the topics discussed be new? If that were the demand, then the list would grow cold and silent. I do propose, though, that next time we see a totally new topic be discussed at any length (say, 4+ active participants, and at least 10 posts), we hold some sort of celebration. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:33:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eyal Fleminger wrote: > >Darokin allows indentured servitude for debtors, so you could "legally" >export slaves there by forging a criminal record (there'd probably be a >lively underground industry in this). = Not a bad idea. I'd say that the Borderland which contains the town of Ma= r (described in GAZ10 as harboring all sorts of unscrupulous characters) wo= uld probably be a good location for this sort of thing. Perhaps the Iron Ring= , through contacts with seedier halflings (such as that Belchiir fellow mentioned in Gaz8) would smuggle Traladaran slaves through the High Shire= and over Blizzard Pass to Mar, where forged "credentials" are made, and then = the "criminals" are exported to other regions in and around Darokin- mostly o= ther Borderland territories (such as, perhaps, the Borderland of Tenobar, whic= h I've always portrayed as the "darker" version of Athenos- a seedy, cutthr= oat, rough and tumble area; both due to its location near the warlike Tiger Cl= an, as well as due to the competition with bustling Athenos. The Borderland Magistrate of Tenobar is sort of a shifty character, as I have him.) >Also, I think Glantri allows slaves (at least humanoids). I don't recall any specific mentions that they don't have any. I think we= figured that it was probably a dominion specific thing (ie, varies from dominion to dominion). The goblinoids of the Great Crater would definitel= y have some human slaves, regardless (though carefully stowed away and put = to work underground, if otherwise illegal). The Free Territories of Glantri might engage in slavery in some places, t= hough I'd say that they are too widespread and disorganized to engage in the practice to any large extent. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:44:34 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] In-Reply-To: <20000502153353.14267.qmail@awcst094.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: > >Also, I think Glantri allows slaves (at least humanoids). > > I don't recall any specific mentions that they don't have any. I think we > figured that it was probably a dominion specific thing (ie, varies from > dominion to dominion). The goblinoids of the Great Crater would definitely > have some human slaves, regardless (though carefully stowed away and put to > work underground, if otherwise illegal). If its not mentioned that they dont have slaves, its most likely that they do. Anti slavery laws seem a bit out of place in a medieval setting. Stefan is definately a man with strange ideas.... H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If its not mentioned that they dont have slaves, its most likely that they > do. Anti slavery laws seem a bit out of place in a medieval > setting. Stefan is definately a man with strange ideas.... > Well, that's true from a IRL-midieval-viewpoint standard, but we have to admit that the KW is sort of "Barneysque TSR-Midieval", wherin only bad (or at least "grey") places practice slaving, legally (illegally people can do what they want) - I doubt that, for instance, just because the Five Shires Gaz doesn't mention slavery being outlawed*, that means the author's intention was that the Hin practice slavery (well, ok, except for kidnapping women and portraying them as "they really wanted it" enjoying it, which I guess is a form of slavery, though you're clearly not supposed to interpret it that way, which I guess you can tell I find a bit. . .off-putting. And me not PC. Go figure). Most KW nations seem to not practice slavery, presence or absence of specific mention asside (indeed, even in Ylaruam, the "2% slaves" is defined in such a way that the "slaves" are akin to Darokinian indentured servants or convenience clerk guys with really strict bosses). *Which doesn't mean that the Five Shires Gaz *doesn't* specifically mention slavery as being outlawed, I just didn't bother to go look. Same with most of the Gazeteers - the HW being an exception. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:07:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Can fiends cast Immortal-level spells? I thought they were limited to = 9th > level. >=20 >> The only problem with a fiend is, when played properly, they can >>stomp all over even high level parties. The taking of the all spells = option >>for 100TP makes even the 'weakest' more than most can handle. Those = who also >>have enough TP for a few 'Reduce Saving Throw' spells as well just = waltz >> through the suddenly dead PCs. Whilst this is also true to an extent >>with any other 'monster', the ability for the GM to say, "Save against >> Disintegration at -20", puts them in a whole new category. Fiends are described in WotI (p. 108 of the Codex). And now that I've = actually looked them up, here's a little extra note: Fiends can cast any = spell any number of times (spells being the usual level 1-9 thingies, = NOT Immortal Powers) for 100 TP. All Fiends have four Immortal Powers, = but none of them have the "Reduce Saving Throw" Power. So the preceding = Super Monster Fiend that disintegrates PC's at -20 saves is not possible = within the rules (thank the Immortals!). You could still create a true = Immortal (Fiends are just Exalted Beings) with the "Reduce Saving Throw" = Power and waltz through PCs, though. Interesting observation: There are no Immortals described in WotI that = have the "Reduce Saving Throw" Power. Kinda makes you wonder why it's = even there... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:15:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: The Wizard of Midwood, advice needed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 <> And well they should! No mortal should be able to stand up to an immortal in manifestation form. That's why they're called "immortals"! If a PC (or a group of PCs) is foolish enough to go into battle against an immortal in manifestation form, then their chances of survival should be slim to none--slim only if they are high-level, there are plenty of them, and they have a couple artifacts backing them up. IMO, immortals should simply be in the "don't even try it--you can't survive and they can't die" category as far as all the PCs know. Even if it's not true, it's not as if mere mortals would have any clue how to kill an immortal. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:25:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] In-Reply-To: <200005021603.MAA12293@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > If its not mentioned that they dont have slaves, its most likely that > they > > do. Anti slavery laws seem a bit out of place in a medieval > > setting. Stefan is definately a man with strange ideas.... > > > Well, that's true from a IRL-midieval-viewpoint standard, but we have to > admit that the KW is sort of "Barneysque TSR-Midieval", wherin only bad (or > at least "grey") places practice slaving, legally (illegally people can do > what they want) - I doubt that, for instance, just because the Five Shires > Gaz doesn't mention slavery being outlawed*, that means the author's > intention was that the Hin practice slavery (well, ok, except for > kidnapping women and portraying them as "they really wanted it" enjoying > it, which I guess is a form of slavery, though you're clearly not supposed > to interpret it that way, which I guess you can tell I find a bit. . > .off-putting. And me not PC. Go figure). Most KW nations seem to not > practice slavery, presence or absence of specific mention asside (indeed, > even in Ylaruam, the "2% slaves" is defined in such a way that the "slaves" > are akin to Darokinian indentured servants or convenience clerk guys with > really strict bosses). Well, that all depends doesn't it? Since the gaz's doesnt specifically mention it, its up to us how we want to fill out the blanks. If we want to go with that was probably the writers' intentions (although we will never know what those were), we'd probably get the Barneyesque TSR-medieval type of setting. But does anyone really like that? Lets look at what would make sense: The Five Shires probably doesn't allow slavery. I dont see halflings having slaves, at least not the Five Shires ones. OTOH various forms of serfdom might occur within the Shires. Karameikos, Alfheim and Rockhome definately dont have slavery as it seems to be contrary to their culture. Ethengar, Glantri, Heldann, Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord and the Athruagin Clans probably have slaves, at least, I dont see any reason why they wouldnt, although the slaves might not be numerous in any of these countries. Alphatia and Thyatis allow slavery and it seems to be a natural part of the way of life in the two empires. > *Which doesn't mean that the Five Shires Gaz *doesn't* specifically mention > slavery as being outlawed, I just didn't bother to go look. Same with most > of the Gazeteers - the HW being an exception. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:01:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > BTW was the idea ever floated that Gareth = Thincol? His rejection of Anya > in order to save Thyatis could have been the last thing he needed to do on > the path of the dynast. Then he lets the simulacrum which was to stand in > his place for a time take the effect of the curse. Gareth's teachings of no > immortal intervention would sort of fit a man who's empire was nearly > destroyed by such. > i like it paul. this sounds very plausible, and i prefer it to the death of thincol. i think if my campaign was to include gareth this would be the case. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:28:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 2. With Thyatis in financial ruin and Thincol dead, would Count Heinrich > Oesterhaus of Hattias (i.e. Thanatos) take this opportunity to start a > second Hattian Rebellion and possibly seizing control of the entire Empire. > this could provide a cause for a crusade. maybe vanya would send the HK's to liberate thyatis from osterhaus/thanatos. karameikos,darokin, in fact all of the known world might join in this crusade. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:30:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya ??] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >2. With Thyatis in financial ruin and Thincol dead, would Count Heinrich >Oesterhaus of Hattias (i.e. Thanatos) take this opportunity to start a >second Hattian Rebellion and possibly seizing control of the entire >Empire. Sounds like someone hasn't been reading his Mystaran Almanac. This is addressed (sort of) in the latest release, the 1016 Almanac. Shame on your for not reading it! ;) guess that makes two of us. i take it osterhause cops it some how? mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:43:36 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well, that all depends doesn't it? Since the gaz's doesnt specifically > mention it, its up to us how we want to fill out the blanks. If we want to > go with that was probably the writers' intentions (although we will never > know what those were), we'd probably get the Barneyesque TSR-medieval type > of setting. But does anyone really like that? > Some do. To each their own, I guess. > Lets look at what would make sense: > The Five Shires probably doesn't allow slavery. I dont see halflings > having slaves, at least not the Five Shires ones. OTOH various forms > of serfdom might occur within the Shires. > Except for the kind mentioned above (yes, that really bugs me. I'd have liked it better if the pretence that it was all lovely and everyone enjoyed it, was absent and it was portrayed as such things really are: ruthless, reaving pirates engaging in kidnapping and rapine, not lovable scamps. Comes across as. . .well, I won't say, because it would cast aspursions on the author, who *isn't* that kind of fellow.) > > Ethengar, Glantri, Heldann, Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord and the > Athruagin Clans probably have slaves, at least, I dont see any reason why > they wouldnt, although the slaves might not be numerous in any of these > countries. > In the Northern Reaches Gaz. it specifically mentions that only Ostland still practices Thralldom (the regional version of slavery), and that the other two don't practice it. The Ostlander version of it goes by the wayside in the PWAs. Now, I'm not saying you or I or anyone else needs to follow what it says in the published materiels any more than Max has to have Alphatia sink if he doesn't want it to, but we do have to be aware of what the Gaz's say. As for the others, either I don't remember the Gaz's enough at the moment (Atruaghin, Ethengar) to recall whether it mentions one way or the other, or it doesn't, in which case you're certainly right, or the Gaz's don't deal directly with the subject at all, in which case you're still right. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:52:07 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >The Five Shires probably doesn't allow slavery. I dont see halflings >having slaves, at least not the Five Shires ones. OTOH various forms >of serfdom might occur within the Shires. > >Karameikos, Alfheim and Rockhome definately dont have slavery as it seems >to be contrary to their culture. The situation in the Five Shires is probably the same as in Alfheim and Rockhome; I doubt there is any serfdom there, especially since the Hin have been enslaved several times in their history (my feel from GAZ8 is that they oppose any form of slavery strongly as a result). OTOH, distasful or menial jobs are probably foisted on the younger and lower-ranked members of the clan. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The situation in the Five Shires is probably the same as in Alfheim and > Rockhome; I doubt there is any serfdom there, especially since the Hin have > been enslaved several times in their history > Well, that's never stopped people before IRL from practicing slavery. "After all, slavery's only objectionable if it's happening to you" (not really, but, lets face it, that was a usual mindset - "I don't want to *be* a slave, but I see nothing wrong in *owning* a slave.") ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:26:19 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] In-Reply-To: <200005021647.MAA20339@granger.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Well, that all depends doesn't it? Since the gaz's doesnt specifically > > mention it, its up to us how we want to fill out the blanks. If we want > to > > go with that was probably the writers' intentions (although we will never > > know what those were), we'd probably get the Barneyesque TSR-medieval > type > > of setting. But does anyone really like that? > > > Some do. To each their own, I guess. Who do? The generic american(who ofcourse doesnt exist)? The generic american's mother? I like keeping my Mystara campaign a bit naivistic; ie evil and good are not easily confused and young heroes can change the course of events. But I also think that making life in my fantasy campaign more medieval and less 21st/20th Century makes the setting feel more real. Equal rights for women has always been problematic for instance. If this was true in a fantasy world, then i believe the setting would be very different from what your average fantasy world is described as ofcourse. That doesnt mean that there cant be female adventurers. But they would encounter certain reactions from NPCs. This would probably be a challenge at first. But once they are established heroes, it might be an advantage to be of the "weaker" sex. I have never understood why gaming worlds have to portray politics that the gamers agree with. If he gamers dont like an element in their own country they can try and change it. Adventure ideas here they come. And why do "good" countries have to be so incredibly good? introducing nasty stuff such as slavery would just make them less two-dimensional...IMO... H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:48:59 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Robson Leao Subject: Maps and mapping sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, Once again, I come to ask you a favor. I would like to know where I can find on the Internet maps for the different regions of Mystara = and also a Big Geopolitical kind of map(like the ones they teach us in = school, with all the world AND almost all the countries. Also, I would like information on the Poor Wizard Almanacs published on the net. Which one is the "official" site?=20 Thanks in advance Robson Le=E3o=20 =20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:52:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Maps and mapping sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit well you can check my site to find maps of almost every nation. http://www.mystara.com.bi else check my link page to find more site related to maps. Robson Leao a �crit: > Hi everyone, > > Once again, I come to ask you a favor. I would like to know where > I can find on the Internet maps for the different regions of Mystara and > also a Big Geopolitical kind of map(like the ones they teach us in school, > with all the world AND almost all the countries. > > Also, I would like information on the Poor Wizard Almanacs published > on the net. Which one is the "official" site? > > Thanks in advance > > Robson Le�o > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Mass Combat Resolution System. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The below is a revision or change in the War Machine rules from the RC, worked on by Adrian Mattias and myself over the last couple weeks (well, actually, he did most of the hard work, and I commented and tweeked things). Let us know what you think of it - you can either mail your reactions to the MML or send them directly to us. If you see anything you think we left out or forgot, then we're especially interested in that. This part deals solely with how units are designed - future additions will cover battlefield modifiers & resolution. There's an rtf file version of this that is more readable - if you're interested in it, just ask. ---------- MYSTARAN MASS COMBAT SYSTEM (MMCS) BASIC FORCE RATING BFR = Leadership + Experience + Training + Equipment + Special Troops Leadership Factor: If leader commands units with a majority of troops of the same general class or race, then: LF = Leader level/2 + (Tactics skill + Leadership skill)/4. If leader commands units with a majority of troops of a different general class or race, then: LF = (Leader level + Tactics skill + Leadership skill)/4. Experience Factor: Average Level of Officers x 3 (Must be one officer per 40 troops to get this bonus) + Average Level of Troops x 2. Add +1 for every 5% of the force that is veteran (survived at least one previous major engagement and served a minimum of 12 continuous months of active duty � this is not automatically applicable � it is for the DM to decide if it applies) Training Factor: + 4 per month trained per year (max 24), + 2 per month leader trained with unit per year (max 12), + 1 per month troops on active duty per year (max 12) = Preliminary Training Factor (PTF). Work out the number of months trained in the last full year and modify the PTF by the following: x 0.25 for units that have trained a total of that number of months or less together in the previous 4 years, x 0.5 for units that have trained a total of 1 to 2 times that number of months together in the previous 4 years, x 0.75 for units that have trained a total of 2 to 3 times that number of months together in the previous 4 years, x 1.0 for units that have trained a total of more than 3 times that number of months together in the previous 4 years. Design Note: At the discretion of the DM the modifiers can be partially waived in the case of new units created out of trained veterans � the above is mainly intended to limit sudden rapid skill increases by raw recruits, untrained levies, and less well skilled troops. DM's judgement should be exercised when deciding appropriate exceptions. Also, At least 75% of the unit's personnel must have trained together for this period to get these bonuses. Therefore, units can draft in replacements for those killed in war unless the replacements exceed 25% of the original number in which case the unit loses the benefit of the higher training bonus. Halve the Training Factor bonus if 50-75% of the unit's personnel have trained together for this period. Quarter it if 25-50% of the unit's personnel have trained together for this period. Negate the Training Factor completely if 25% or less of the unit's personnel have trained together for this period. Equipment Factor: Weapons: +5 if weapons of average quality (normal cost) +10 for weapons of superior quality (2+ times normal cost) +5 for a second weapon of the same quality Add +5% to this factor for every 5% of the force who possess enchanted weapons. Note: Enchanted weapons are also automatically "superior". Armor: +5 if average AC is 6 or better another +5 if average AC is 3 or better. Add +5% to this factor for every 10% of the troops who have enchanted armor. Special Troops Factor: Flat +15 bonus for units composed virtually entirely (95%+) of troops with special abilities useful in combat (I.E. Elven bonuses with certain weapons and their stealth, Dwarven resistance, JuJu Zombies, etc). Add + 2 per 1% of the force that has 9HD or more. +2 for every 5% of the force that has an inherent magical ability useful in combat Note: this bonus only applies in cases where another bonus does not apply � I.E. spellcasters benefit from the "Magical Ability" Battle Rating bonus, below, and creatures immune to non-magic weapons which are fighting opponents who are not so armed receive benefits under the "IMMUNITIES" adjustment/modifier. This is intended to apply to exceptional creatures. NOTE, however, that bonuses can be cumulative: a force of Pit Fiends would receive this bonus, plus magical ability bonuses, plus in most cases a bonus due to immunities � but one does NOT receive multiple bonuses for the same ability. BATTLE RATING This is calculated by determining adding the total % together that is applicable to the force and then multiplying the BFR by it to get the final BR. Exceptional Bonuses Magical Ability: +1% for every 2% of the force that can cast inherently or by magical item: combat useful spells of third level or less; maximum bonus of +20% +2% for every 2% of the force that can cast inherently or by magical item: combat useful spells of fourth level of greater; maximum bonus of +20% +1% for every 2% of the force that can cast inherently or by magical item: healing spells; maximum bonus of +20% Flying: +2% for every 5% of the force that can fly; maximum bonus of +20% Conventional Bonuses (some bonuses are mutually exclusive � troops mounted on large combat mounts do not receive bonuses for being mounted on horses as well. However, a unit can have both regular cavalry and heavy cavalry, for example, and receive bonuses for both � but the same troops are not counted twice. ) NOTE THAT THESE BONUSES ARE AVAILABLE IN FULL TO A TOTAL OF +50%, FURTHER BONUSES ARE HALVED AFTER THAT. MAXIMUM CONVENTIONAL BONUS + 100%. Mounted Combat Troops (limited to a maximum bonus of +20% for non-heavy cavalry, +30% for heavy cavalry, +40% for large combat mounts): + 2% of BFR for every 5% of the troops that are mounted on horses (and are not classed as heavy cavalry) or on regular flying mounts. + 3% of BFR for every 5% of the troops that can be classed as dedicated heavy cavalry � armed with a weapon that does double damage in charges (I.E. a lance) and carrying shields, has AC 4 or better and riding heavy warhorses with barding providing AC 5 or better. + 4% for every 5% of the troops that are mounted on large combat mounts (rhinos, elephants, griffons, dragons etc). Missile Weapons (limited to a maximum bonus of +30%): + 1% for every 5% of the troops armed with a missile weapon with a range less than 120 yards (ie thrown spears, javelins, bolas, etc) +2% for every 5% of the troops armed with a missile weapon with a range between 120 and 180 yards (ie short bows, slings etc � and any bow used by mounted troops) + 3% for every 5% of the troops armed with a missile weapon with a range greater than 180 yards (ie light and heavy crossbows, long bows, etc; note that mounted troops cannot receive this bonus) Heavy Infantry (limited to a maximum bonus of +20%): + 1% for every 5% of the troops whose primary weapon can be set vs the charge. + 1% for every 5% of the troops that can be classed as dedicated heavy infantry � armed with polearms, spears, swords or warhammers and who carry shields and have an AC of 4 or better. Note: Troops armed with two handed melee weapons are exempted from the shield requirement but that is the only exemption � ie heavy infantry cannot carry ranged missile weapons � although those with spears and javelins etc could gain the +1% bonus in the missile category. Note also that troops armed with weapons that can be both thrown and set against charge (I.E. spears) receive one or the other bonus, but not both, unless they are armed with another missile weapon as well (I.E. both spears and javelins). Artillery (limited to a maximum bonus of +20%): + 4% for every breath weapon, magical direct-fire artillery or ballistae there is per 100 troops. Maneuverability (limited to a maximum of +30%): + 10% if more than 50% of the force has a movement rating of 12 or more per round + 10% if more than 50% of the force can fire a missile weapon with a range greater than 120 yards and has a movement rating of 15 or more per round. + 10% if more than 50% of the force has a movement rating of 24 or more per round. Maximum BFR: 273 Maximum BR: +180% ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Equal rights for women has always been problematic for instance. If this > was true in a fantasy world, then i believe the setting would be very > different from what your average fantasy world is described as > ofcourse. > Well, on this I do want to comment, because, lets face it - noted MML list members asside, the RPG hobby has always had a hard time attracting female adherents. If one made that aspect realistic, it would be even worse off. Yes, I don't have any problem with the few places where they do try to model more typical social relationships, but the "ERA Countries" don't bother me much. That doesnt mean that there cant be female adventurers. But they > would encounter certain reactions from NPCs. This would probably be a > challenge at first. But once they are established heroes, it might be an > advantage to be of the "weaker" sex. > That's the atmosphere they tried to create with Thyatis at least. > I have never understood why gaming worlds have to portray politics that > the gamers agree with. If he gamers dont like an element in their own > country they can try and change it. Adventure ideas here they come. > Yep. > And why do "good" countries have to be so incredibly good? introducing > nasty stuff such as slavery would just make them less > two-dimensional...IMO... > I agree with that. But the real reason the "good" countries have to be incredibly good is so that their followers/minions/inhabitants will be insufferably condecending, haughty, and arrogant, and thus dislikable to others and friendless. It's all part of Hosadus' plot to take over the world, you know - if no one wants to ally with such persons, it'll be easy to knock 'em off one by one. It's all part of the plan. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:18:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Equal rights for women has always been problematic for instance. If this > was true in a fantasy world, then i believe the setting would be very > different from what your average fantasy world is described as > ofcourse. That doesnt mean that there cant be female adventurers. But they > would encounter certain reactions from NPCs. This would probably be a > challenge at first. But once they are established heroes, it might be an > advantage to be of the "weaker" sex. Interesting, because I am running Red Steel with some slightly modified rules on panache and gauche points, and using the honour system as described in A Mighty Fortress. Which has lots of stuff in it on how the gentleman should treat a woman (do not insult, slander or a mock a woman, or allow a woman to be insulted slandered or mocked etc. etc.) I play it so that if they abide by honour they get panache points, and if they wilfully act dishonourably they accrue gauche points. It works quite well, I've had some good RPing there :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:25:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Idealized nations and cultures in Mystara In-Reply-To: <200005021812.OAA29605@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:10 05/02/2000 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Well, on this I do want to comment, because, lets face it - noted MML list >members asside, the RPG hobby has always had a hard time attracting female >adherents. If one made that aspect realistic, it would be even worse off. >Yes, I don't have any problem with the few places where they do try to >model more typical social relationships, but the "ERA Countries" don't >bother me much. And it also doesn't necessarily apply to adventurer types: The local fishmonger may think most women aren't his equal, but if that same woman is capable of turning him into a toad, he wouldn't regard her as a typical woman. Player characters can thus be reasonably insulated from such attitudes if the group is uncomfortable dealing with those issues. If they like dealing with them (and presumably educating a few sexist boors), having the NPCs in question be big mouths or people incapable of realizing that the woman with the battle axe and armor is unlikely to be meek and mild will bring them into direct confrontation. But in a world where, for whatever reason, adventurers of both sexes have helped make the nations what they are, the base line of sexism would have to be a bit lower in most places, certainly in the wake of the WotI, where adventurers were responsible for saving lots of lives in most campaigns. And, naturally, one of the reasons there are several very goody-goody nations (cough, cough, Karameikos) is that it's easier to introduce new gamers in such an environment where not EVERYTHING is challenging them. When players are just learning the ropes (don't insult the dragon, don't open that chest without the thief looking at it first), compounding that with cultural issues would be a deterrent for many new players. But I think the later designers did an admirable job of putting enough wrinkles into each setting that can be brought out with later play: The Traladaran/Thyatian split in Karameikos, for instance, can rear up the moment the players are ready, or the players can simply be the "New Karameikans" if they never are. My players are all Traladaran or Traladaran-Thyatian mixes and will be encountering prejudice soon. They're older players who are comfortable with the rules and will be ready for that culture clash now that they're comfortable with the setting. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:46:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Technique for building NPCs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroletti wrote: > I thought I could share my own techniques in building NPC's, if anyone > is interested. By the way, Beau's way is interesting too, and I may > apply this to NPC's in the future. My way of handling NPC's may be > used in two occasions: when a PC has to be fully detailed, so he must > be fully alive, and when a PC makes just a slight appearance in the > adventure, so you haven't managed to create him, but the players > absolutely want you to describe them. > The main idea is very simple: you choose a person you know, and use > him as the background for the character, giving him similar attributes > and a similar role. This can be done not only with persons you know, > but also actors, famous singers, litterature figures etc. a good thing. i will take both. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:56:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: James Ruhland > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya ?? > Date: 29 April 2000 00:25 > > > > > 1. Why doesn't Liena (being Thincols mortal mother) simply remove the > curse > > on Thincol (especially if it was placed "illegally")? > > > Well, this is a good question that has no answer that I can think of, > except the fact thay Liena is a fairly young Immortal, with limited power, > and presumably Vanya could "out-power" her in any contest of "I put a curse > on you" vs "ok, I take it off" vs "I put it back on" etc. > > > 2. With Thyatis in financial ruin and Thincol dead, would Count Heinrich > > Oesterhaus of Hattias (i.e. Thanatos) take this opportunity to start a > > second Hattian Rebellion and possibly seizing control of the entire > Empire. > > > This one's much easier to answer, as it turns out - the very fact that > Aline/Liena reached Immortality means that her Dynasty can't fall yet - > thus, Oesterhaus can't seize control of the entire Empire right now. > Presumably, Aline/Liena would have travelled forward to insure the success > of her Dynasty in the future, in much the same way that al-Kalim made an > apearance in the MA 1015 to prevent Fiends from eliminating his. > > Now, according to "the rules" for Dynasts, three different decendents must > be helped. Presumably, Thincol was one. Eusebius could be the next one, or > he could be "skipped" and other decendents helped, but that does mean that > there would be other decendents. > maybe aline will help eusebius to retain mainland thyatis, and osterhaus could take over hattias. that would give her two assiasts down and one to go. then a few years later osterhaus could try again to take all of thyatis. maybe even killing eusebius. then the crusade could begin led by a child of thincols daughter that rules helskir.aline could then help out again. giving her three assists. sorted. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:41:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Dynast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps instead of requiring a realm to be "created", Immortal > Sponsors in the Sphere of time simply allow already-existing realms to be > "enhanced" by the aspirant (I.E. take the IRL historical case of > Octavian/Augustus - Rome already existed as a great city and capital of a > mighty empire, but it might be said that he initiated so many changes as to > have "re-founded" or re-created the "realm" and its capital - "found a city > of bricks, and left a city of marble" as it were). What do people think of > that type of interpretation of "creating" a realm and a "great new capital" > for it? hey when it comes to increasing the size and rank of a dominion, one is supposed to conquer additional lands, but marriage is considered a conquest. and this is in the D&D rules. so why not allow the change of or evolution of a realm to be counted as it's creation. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:30:32 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Re: Alphatia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed James Ruhland wrote: (snipped comments) NOTE HOWEVER: the continued >presence of Alphatia as it was pre-Wrath (and Thyatis likewise as it was >pre-Wrath - and this will also affect Karameikos, I.E. the Karameikan >School of Magecraft won't exist and Tylion/Terari won't live in Karameikos, >etc) WOW, I am confused a little now. What do you mean with Terari/Tylion won't live in Karameikos and there won't be a School of Magecraft? How do these things link up with WotI (I am really sorry, it is probably all explained in WotI, but I still haven't read it yet and I already introduced the School of Magecract (or better: The College of Wizardry since I bought this accesory). These things wouldn't have happened without the events taking place in WotI? Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:31:10 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia") In-Reply-To: <20000502213032.55416.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:30 05/02/2000 CEST, Max wrote: >I am confused a little now. What do you mean with Terari/Tylion won't live >in Karameikos and there won't be a School of Magecraft? How do these things >link up with WotI (I am really sorry, it is probably all explained in WotI, >but I still haven't read it yet and I already introduced the School of >Magecract (or better: The College of Wizardry since I bought this accesory). >These things wouldn't have happened without the events taking place in WotI? Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result of WotI. I disagree that there wouldn't be a School of Magecraft. It would just be different if Terari wasn't involved. Transplant someone else in charge (Bargle in disguise!) and you'd have a school there. Just ... not the same one. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia") In-Reply-To: Beau's message of "Tue, 2 May 2000 14:31:10 -0700" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Beau writes: > Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result > of WotI. Not quite. Tylion, as an identity, had been around the palace for quite a long time, helping various special guests in magical studies. Nobody quite remembered where Tylion had come from. But without WotI, Tylion would still be in Alphatia. (Probably. You could certainly change it, but reading about him in DotE seems to indicate he would have stuck around there.) > I disagree that there wouldn't be a School of Magecraft. It would > just be t if Terari wasn't involved. Transplant someone else in > charge (Bargle in disguise!) and you'd have a school there. Just > ... not the same one. Well, Tylion was a major force in the creation of a real school. In AC1000, there was just a magician's guild, run by a mid-level mage. Again, it seems to me that there was no major impetus for a school sans Tylion, although you could certainly have someone who pushed for one. But then, going without WotI also leaves you explaining precisely why Karameikos renamed themselves as a Kingdom, why Thyatis didn't slap them down like gnats, why there are all these Alphatian refugees, what the day without magic is all about.... (It gets even more fun if you also use Glantri: Kingdom of Magic!) It seems to me that if you like Alphatia but want to use the AD&D stuff, the easiest change would be to say that it didn't sink, but the rest of WotI occured as scripted. But then, since I'm trying to put together a pre-WotI campaign, I'm not the best to ask. 8^) -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 192 days, 17 hours, 52 minutes, 5 seconds till we run away. Time to be aggressive. Go after a tattooed Virgo. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:52:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia")] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beau wrote: > > Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result of >WotI. = Actually, no. Emperor Tylion IV of Alphatia adopted the dual identity of Master Terari some time before the events in Wrath of the Immortals- some= time before AC 1000, in fact. I don't recall if Dawn of the Emperors gives a general date (ie, during his reign as emperor, or after his reign), but t= he identity was already well established by Tylion/Terari decades ago. He uses the Terari identity full time now, as a result of the events of t= he Wrath of the Immortals, but the identity existed long before then. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:53:32 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >WOW, > >I am confused a little now. What do you mean with Terari/Tylion won't live >in Karameikos and there won't be a School of Magecraft? How do these things >link up with WotI (I am really sorry, it is probably all explained in WotI, >but I still haven't read it yet and I already introduced the School of >Magecract (or better: The College of Wizardry since I bought this accesory). >These things wouldn't have happened without the events taking place in WotI? >Max The School of Magecraft was founded and mostly staffed by Alphatian refugees who, for whatever reason, were away from the main continent when it sank and was reconstructed in the Hollow World. Terari/Tylion, Eriadna's predecessor on the imperial throne, will still be living happily in Alphatia if Alphatia were still in the outer world. You could conceivably come up with a reason for a bunch of Alphatians to follow Terari to Karameikos, but it would have to be a pretty good one IMHO. I know a lot of people prefer Alphatia on the outside, but personally I prefer the adventuring opportunities afforded by the power vaccuum to the east (at least from the perspective of gaming in the Known World or the colonies). I'd recommend that you not really mention anything either way to your players 'til after you've read through DotE and Immortal's Fury (from the WotI set--keep the other book handy as a resource, but you needn't read entirely through it yet). Then make up your own mind. Personally I thought that DotE was woefully insufficient for covering two empires: it was well done, but Allston just didn't have nearly enough room to cram all the information he should have included (Kingdom's larger than Darokin get only a sentence or two). I personally think the Alphatian colonies which remain after WotI were the best (and definitely the most detailed) settings for campaigning anyway. I'd recommend that, for the sake of simplicity, continuity, and game balance, you move the Alphatia described in DotE largely untouched to the Hollow World an use the surviving colonies for an outer world Alphatia (Bellissaria, Aquas, and Thothia can certainly hold their own against Thyatis). Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:55:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > These things wouldn't have happened without the events taking place in WotI? > These things don't happen without WotI - or you have to find another reason for them. Many, many things of 1012 (if you're using the PWAs) simply wouldn't have occured without WotI, and that is one of them. Like it or hate it, if you don't use WotI then the PWAs are "non-sensical" - since the events of the PWAs unfold in the wake of the changes that WotI caused, if WotI didn't cause any changes (since there was not WotI), then the PWA timeline doesn't fit. That's one reason why I had qualms about it all at the time - it sort of compells your campaign down a certain path if you want to use it - if you use it, then you're sort of "bound" by things (either you follow everything, or if you change something then you're sort of "forced" to push things back onto the "correct path", or if you don't then you're not really following the PWA timelines, and they become increasingly less useful to you). The reasons behind the creation of the Karameikan School of Magecraft and for Tylion/Terari's move to Karameikos, as well as the other changes in Karameikos' status, are all explained within the framework of WotI. If you don't use WotI, then they become inexplicable, and it you want to keep those changes then you have to create new rationales for them - but there are so many things that would differ, and it would be hard to creat plausable rationales behind every change but still end up with the outcome exactly the same, that, dispite faults that people find with WotI, it's simply more useful than not if you want to end up with a AC 1012 world "near-identical" to how it is depicted in the PWAs. For one thing, keeping Alphatia as it is but following the PWA timeline is impossible. There are alternatives to disposing of it (Geoff Gander, for one, created an alternate Alphatian Post-WotI Timeline, which is at dnd.starflung.com - in that timeline, Alphatia doesn't sink, which fits with what you want, but isn't left unchanged, either). Point is, flawed and all, the WotI/PWA structure fits together, and if you start pulling out strands, changing this or that (especially early on, I.E. in WotI), then that affects things down the line, and changes everything as a result. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:58:50 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia")] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Shutko wrote: > >But then, going without WotI also leaves you explaining precisely why >Karameikos renamed themselves as a Kingdom, why Thyatis didn't slap >them down like gnats, why there are all these Alphatian refugees, what >the day without magic is all about.... (It gets even more fun if you >also use Glantri: Kingdom of Magic!) It seems to me that if you like >Alphatia but want to use the AD&D stuff, the easiest change would be >to say that it didn't sink, but the rest of WotI occured as scripted. Geoff Gander did a pretty cool alternative scenario writeup where Alphati= a didn't sink (with some developments similar to ones I had theorized about= , but with a bunch more and far more well developed :). It should be available = on Shawn's site... which I'm not going to plug anymore this week, at least u= ntil I get that check he promised me. :) The only disadvantage to Geoff's proposed timeline is that it only goes u= p to 1015 AC, and leaves a bunch of plotlines dangling. Darn that guy! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:59:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result of WotI. > Nope, not true: The "Terari" identity of Tylion (Terari is the secret identity - Tylion has it. It's "Tylion's secret identity," not Terari's. There is no Terari as such) existed beforehand. His move to Karameikos is explained by WotI. > I disagree that there wouldn't be a School of Magecraft. It would just be > different if Terari wasn't involved. > Nope. Without WotI, there would be no School of Magecraft - the School of Magecraft was created as part of the pay-off for Stefan "selling out his long term allies", Thyatis. In exchange, the Alphatians helped build the School of Magecraft. No WotI, no School of Magecraft. Of course, other rationales could be invented, but the same can be said of any change, not just that one. Suffice to say, it's simply "True" from a Mystaran/PWA standpoint that the School of Magecraft was a direct result of actions taken by Stefan and others during WotI. > Transplant someone else in charge (Bargle in disguise!) and you'd have a > school there. Just ... not the same one. > Right, it wouldn't be the same - it wouldn't be the School of Magecraft As We Know It - it would be some other institution. Might have the same name, but it would be different. That's, IMO, the important point. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:03:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikan School of Magecraft (was"Alphatia")] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>The only disadvantage to Geoff's proposed timeline is that it only goes up to 1015 AC, and leaves a bunch of plotlines dangling. Darn that guy!<< IIRC, he intended, and might still intend, to "finish it" more, but we all have more stuff we want to do than time to do it all in, so I can't be hard on him. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia") MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result of WotI. > I disagree that there wouldn't be a School of Magecraft. It would just be >different if Terari wasn't involved. > Transplant someone else in charge (Bargle in disguise!) and you'd have a >school there. Just ... not the same one. Except that without the Alphatian expatriates, who will staff it? IMO it would be very much contrary to the Traladaran character to give up their hedge mages to work in an institutionalized school of magecraft. I suppose you could argue that the Alfheimers could staff it, but I think they'd be much happier trying to protect themselves in the less than hospitable new home they've been "given." Some might insist that the Vyalia would help, but I still maintain that, at least according to all the canon sources we have, they will be none too pleased about Stefan's declaration of independence and they'd rather train foresters at Greenheight than wizards at the School of Magecraft. That leaves the School with a few Callari, a handful of Thyatian expatriates, and those renegades from elsewhere who, for one reason or another, find it safer to pull the wool over Stefan's eyes (obviously not a hard thing to do) and hide out in Krakatos than face whatever fate they'd have at home. This might actually be a great idea if you want Karameikos to be a lot nastier than it appears on the surface, simply because the School of Magecraft will tend to attract the less-talented and disreputable mages who'd prefer job and personal security to adventuring or meaningful studies (in which case they'd be in Glantri, Alphatia, or possibly Thyatis or Ylaruam). It's interesting that this difference wouldn't be because of any inherent goodness to the Alphatians, but rather because the Alphatians at least are talented magic-users who, for the most part, aren't hiding from anything. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:23:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Aline (was Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya ??) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >maybe aline will help eusebius to retain mainland thyatis, and osterhaus >could take over hattias. that would give her two assiasts down and one to >go. then a few years later osterhaus could try again to take all of >thyatis. maybe even killing eusebius. then the crusade could begin led by a >child of thincols daughter that rules helskir.aline could then help out >again. giving her three assists. >sorted. >mortus. Why the rush to see Thyatis fall? So far I haven't seen any evidence of a mortal Aline helping Thincol in the last years of his rein--she had to get him through at least four major challenges to his rule earlier in his rein, but she never seems to be a major influence in supporting him later. If Eusebius does lose the empire (an idea that I don't like one bit, but hey...) she certainly couldn't count that as assistance, even if she did try. If she were to help him and he lost the empire anyway, she would certainly have failed on the Path of the Dynast. Thus if we were to follow this timeline and have her assist he great grandchild from Helskir, I would argue that that could count only as her first of three. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:45:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikan School of Magecraft (was"Alphatia")]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >IIRC, he intended, and might still intend, to "finish it" more, but we >= all have more stuff we want to do than time to do it all in, so I can't >be h= ard on him. Yeah, I know. I was just pulling his leg. Heck, I'm afraid to guess at ho= w many projects I've said "are coming soon" over the years on this list, th= at haven't ever seen (at least in their entirety) the light of day. That could be a neat scavenger hunt for anyone who really wants to dig th= rough the archives of the list. "Find how many projects Cthulhudrew has promise= d would be posted soon!" :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:28:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You pass on slanderous allegations about two princes, yet > have no evidence and can point to nothing that shows them to be other than > fully engaged loyal citizens of Glantri. I must admit that there is no "evidence" that the two Princes are indeed undead creatures. When it comes to two of the most prominent characters in Glantri, I would indeed hope that they could conceal their little secrets. Unfortuantely it doesn't stop the suspicion (and fear) of the populace they rule. > This notion that there are those who "cannot" learn magic has never been > proven; there are dullards who have learned it and geniuses who have not. > Given that old preconceptions about who can and can't learn magic have been > dashed with the crowning of Prince Kol -- a member of a species that > non-Glantrian racists historically viewed as incapable of attaining the > higher forms of consciousness needed to perform magic -- how can one > honestly say that anyone is incapable? > Such apologies for the lazy and mentally slothful only hide an agenda that > would allow those who profit from magic without any effort of their own to > seize unearned political and social power. > Reaping the benefits without putting in the work may be fine for > antiquated monarchies and other bandit states, by Glantri strives for > something more: A nation of citizens who have honed themselves and proven > their commitment to the nation and each other. > The lazy and slothful can find other realms to sulk in. > I must disagree with you there. While it is true that if a person desires to attain the ability to cast magic is strong enough, the a lack of a standard of intelligence will not hold the said person back. What does hold them back however, is their reluctance to bargain away parts of the soul to "demons". This is what seperates most normal folk from beasts like Kol. On the subject of Kol, the fact that Glantri elevated Kol, a creature that is considered by most civilised lands as no more than a foul monster, to Prince, but expels the peace loving Erewanian elves that were loyal Glantrian citizens, certainly speaks ill of their judgement, and calls into question their compedance at running a country in the first place. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:53:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Karameikos, Alfheim and Rockhome definately dont have slavery as it seems > to be contrary to their culture. > It does seem contrary to their culture doesn't it? However, what would you call convicts being forced in chain-gangs to built the highways of Karameikos. It might not be referred to as slavery, but anyone who had their liberty revoked and was forced to do the bidding of their captors with no remuneration, certainly smacks of a type of slavery to me. Admittedly, these are convicted felons, but should one or two "mistakes" force you into indentured servitude? That sort of thing goes on in Thyatis. So while King Stefan appears to castigate slavery, he's not above using it himself, abiet in a subtle and insidious way. I very much doubt that Alfheim and Rockhome are as pure as they appear to be on the surface, though I haven't found anything to condemn them yet. I'll keep looking though! :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:05:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Karameikan School of Magecraft (was "Alphatia") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2 May 2000 14:31:10 Beau wrote: >At 23:30 05/02/2000 CEST, Max wrote: > >>I am confused a little now. What do you mean with Terari/Tylion won't live >>in Karameikos and there won't be a School of Magecraft? How do these things >>link up with WotI (I am really sorry, it is probably all explained in WotI, >>but I still haven't read it yet and I already introduced the School of >>Magecract (or better: The College of Wizardry since I bought this accesory). >>These things wouldn't have happened without the events taking place in WotI? > > Terari's secret identity, I believe, was created as a direct result of WotI. Actually no. Terari was Tylion IV's secret identity even in 1,000 AC when he was the headmaster of the Alphatian University of Air Magics in Sundsvall - nobody knew that he was really the former emperor and Terari was just one of his secret identities, as he had at least 60 at the time (according to DOTE, p.52 in the DM book) > I disagree that there wouldn't be a School of Magecraft. It would just be >different if Terari wasn't involved. Simple! Just keep Teldon, the master of the old Magicians' Guild, around and have him be the master instead (you'll have to give him some foreign experts on magic, but that could mean interesting adventures!) According to canon (there's that word again...) he disappeared just before the School of Magecraft was finished (in 1010 AC I think - it's not in the PWAs, though, but in an issue of Dragon, 206 IIRC) > Transplant someone else in charge (Bargle in disguise!) and you'd have a >school there. Just ... not the same one. > Yikes, Nasty! :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:58:29 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikan School ofMagecraft (was"Alphatia")]] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Yeah, I know. I was just pulling his leg. Heck, I'm afraid to guess at how >many projects I've said "are coming soon" over the years on this list, that >haven't ever seen (at least in their entirety) the light of day. > >That could be a neat scavenger hunt for anyone who really wants to dig through >the archives of the list. "Find how many projects Cthulhudrew has promised >would be posted soon!" :) Hey, who among us isn't guilty of the same thing? My map of Akesoli remains less than halfway done three years after I first started it :-) Actually, those of us in the Mystara3E group all know the answer to that question (the Who Among Us question) and we're very grateful to Kaviyd for that :-) I just hope we weren't all all talk re: helping Leroy monitor the list and he's gotten some quality applicants. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:02:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <000201bfb489$ca55c0c0$6f25073e@phillip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:28 05/02/2000 +0100, Phillip Jones wrote: >I must admit that there is no "evidence" that the two Princes are indeed >undead creatures. When it comes to two of the most prominent characters in >Glantri, I would indeed hope that they could conceal their little secrets. >Unfortuantely it doesn't stop the suspicion (and fear) of the populace they >rule. And rumor mongering is to be given equal weight as fact? What curious customs the barbarian world has. >I must disagree with you there. While it is true that if a person desires to >attain the ability to cast magic is strong enough, the a lack of a standard >of intelligence will not hold the said person back. What does hold them back >however, is their reluctance to bargain away parts of the soul to "demons". Misinformed slander that borders on treason and crimes against the state. I daresay a visit to the Tower of Sighs would be educational for you. >This is what seperates most normal folk from beasts like Kol. > >On the subject of Kol, the fact that Glantri elevated Kol, a creature that >is considered by most civilised lands as no more than a foul monster, to >Prince, but expels the peace loving Erewanian elves that were loyal >Glantrian citizens, certainly speaks ill of their judgement, and calls into >question their compedance at running a country in the first place. :) Racism, slander and a deliberately skewed interpretation of Glantrian internal affairs. Were Alphatia not wiped clean from the world as one lances a boil, I would suggest that your remarks would be proof of your standing as a foreign agent. Of course, it is ever thus that those who point the way to a better world are torn down by those who stand to benefit by the old corrupt social order. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:38:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mass Combat Resolution System. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like this updated version of the War Machine rules. I was just = thinking: What do you recommend be done with the old stats for armies = (as seen in the PWA's for instance)? Could you think of a factor to = multiply them with, should they be used as they are, or do you think = they should be recalculated entirely? Yes, I know, probably a mix... But if you've given it any thought, I'd = like to know. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mass Combat Resolution System. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I like this updated version of the War Machine rules. I was just thinking: What do you recommend be done with the old stats for armies (as seen in the PWA's for instance)? Could you think of a factor to multiply them with, should they be used as they are, or do you think they should be recalculated entirely? << In most cases, if you're going to use certain units in your campaign, it would make sense to calculate what their BFRs/BRs would be under this system. For some units, leaving them "as is" and just using the old stats actually often won't make much of a difference, but for others it makes a significant difference. It does take a *little* more time to calculate the stats under this system compared to War Machine, but not a lot of time. As for multiplying the old stats by something, there'd be no fixed factor to use; because the new system is designed to take other things into consideration, outcomes would vary somewhat - some units will be worse under this system, others better (some significantly so). NOTE however, that, in general, units that were "designed" to be good under the old War Machine system will tend to be similar under this one (a semi-deliberate choice) - but their BR will likely be different, and the variation isn't fixed (or at least I haven't found a fixed variation for which a formula can be used to quickly calculate what the new BR should be). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 20:30:52 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/2/00 10:07:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time, CronoCloud@WEBTV.NET writes: << Wasn't it Dori Watry? I liked the first book, hated the others, thank the Immortals I didn't buy them. I still think that both writers should have paid more attention to Gaz 1.>> The problem with books produced by TSR (or for series like Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr. Who, etc.), is that many times an author will send in a manuscript set in their own world/setting/galaxy, hoping to get it published, and the company will say "Well, it's quite good we're not interested in developing a whole new series/publishing a one shot wonder. Too bad it isn't written for Forgotten Realms/Mystara/Star Trek/Star Wars/etc". And so, the author goes in and rewrites it for the specified world/setting, even though he might not know the first thing about it... and thus you get things like Hattian Half-Orcs and the Dragonlord series... James ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society ought tobeconsidered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Mischa E Gelman > > I see it just the opposite way: The Alphatians might have an even > > stronger morality than most, and if so they need no laws to guide them - > > they would already know what's right and wrong! > > That's a very twisted path of logic. It is not morality to say "to each > their own, if it feels good do it" - in the words of G.K. Chesterton, > "art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." If we tell > everyone to draw their own lines, we get a chaotic scribble, not morality. Well, look at that! Mischa and I agree on something else! I used to try the same argument, that Alphatians had a cultural morality that kept their empire thriving for 2000 years. But James Ruhland kept batting me in the head with logic...I finally gave up. I am a recoving "uber-Alphatia-phile". In my defense, the primary reason I insisted Alphatians had to have a strong moral sense was the incredible length of their empire. If I'm to believe (as DOTE seems to indicate) that its one huge monolithic empire that has existed in pretty much the same form for 2000 years, then I believe that is a strong indication of a people with a "super human" morality. For an empire to exist that long, one would have to assume that the same things which tore down Rome and other empires just simply isn't working in Alphatia. Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 years without being split from within and without? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:59:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein) In-Reply-To: <9b.472ede9.2640cd3c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:30 PM 5/2/00 EDT, you wrote: > >The problem with books produced by TSR (or for series like Star Trek, Star >Wars, Dr. Who, etc.), is that many times an author will send in a manuscript >set in their own world/setting/galaxy, hoping to get it published, and the >company will say "Well, it's quite good we're not interested in developing a >whole new series/publishing a one shot wonder. Too bad it isn't written for >Forgotten Realms/Mystara/Star Trek/Star Wars/etc". And so, the author goes in >and rewrites it for the specified world/setting, even though he might not >know the first thing about it... and thus you get things like Hattian >Half-Orcs and the Dragonlord series... Where are Hattian Half-orcs? Haven't come across them yet... On another note- while back in my Alma Mater town a few weekends ago, I was able to pick up a couple of Mystara books for cheap at my old game shop (Dragonmage, completing that series for me; Son of Dawn; and the Black Vessel- all for $1 each!) Haven't been able to get into Dragonmage and Son of Dawn too much, but I did read the Black Vessel. Not a bad read, overall, though the ending was a bit rushed. The thing I found most interesting (psst! Mischa- you listening? :) was that it mentions Hutaakan presence along the Savage Coast and even in the outer reaches of the Serpent Peninsula (above Yavdlom). Very interesting, especially when tied together with the Lupin article by Bruce Heard. It helps (IMO) explain the rapid appearance of Lupins across the face of Brun (when you consider that they are, essentially, Hutaakans themselves). Some very interesting information in that book, even if I still don't much care for the way the Red Steel box rewrote the original Savage Coast/Cinnabryl effects from Bruce's VPA articles... ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 20:53:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] In-Reply-To: <200005021647.MAA20339@granger.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > what the Gaz's say. As for the others, either I don't remember the Gaz's > enough at the moment (Atruaghin, Ethengar) to recall whether it mentions The Atruaghin clans don't seem to keep slaves from what one sees in the GAZ. The Ethengar probably would keep slaves once they conquered something, but under the normal conditions of their lifestyle, only a Khan could actually afford to have any, and I don't remember any actual mention of them. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:58:50 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was still a youngin', and had just purchased X5, I marveled at the idea of a chaotic nation. It seemed a paradox to me that there could be such a strict, totalitarian rule, and yet at the same time be called chaotic. I believe this is nothing more than a misunderstanding of chaotic as defined in the dictionary, and chaotic as used by the individual D&D writer of the time. I have no idea what alignment drow are, but their society is very lawful. Hule, despite being classified as chaotic, is lawful. As far as the D&D alignment system goes...I've come to understand law vs chaos as a simple argument of law versus individual freedom. Because freedom is good, chaos can be considered good. Because just and proper law can be considered good, law is good. Take that where you will. ----- Original Message ----- From: Beau To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis. > At 10:39 05/01/2000 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > >> > >> Is it? A formal system and rules for dueling isn't chaotic. > >> > >Oh? Drow have similar "formal" traditions, IIRC, but it doesn't make them > >any less Chaotic. > > Laws and traditions are, by definition I believe, lawful. That might not > counter everything else in their culture, of course, including the > influence of a powerful religion (or two) based around the worship of > powerful extra-planar chaotic creatures. > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:56:10 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/00 11:04:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: <> well....alignment is always subject to the general consensus that dictates what is right and what is wrong. it is really a matter of perspectives on morality. In RW terms much that goes on in western civilizations would get one in serious trouble in more conservative parts of the world....such as certain Middle Eastern nations. And then there are religious practices. Two hundred years ago....such practices would have gotten a majority of the populaton branded as heretics. Alphatia and Thyatis are two highly different cultures based on different mindsets. To Alphatians there is nothing wrong with their culture. Sure there are elements that are evil in Alphatian terms....eg Blackheart. I tend to see the Alpher mindset as fully justifying their society. Even the "second class" mundaners see the wisdom of the 2000+ year culture and accept the way things are. [snip] <> such is the role of Law; to keep a sense of order. Alpher Law is often criticised but IMO it is far more realistic than any of the other Mystaran nations. it favors the aristocrat but what RW culture's law doesn't. RW Law is set up so that the famous and wealthy tend to fare better than those that are not; either with public relations to a potential jury pool or by the ability to surround their defense with better lawyers. and then there are potential influences upon judges and court officials that may sway their opinion. In Mystara similar tendencies exist. Aristocrats (including noble blood and wealthy families) are held to a different legal standard than a commoner. the difference in Alpherland is that the Alphers make no attempt to cover this favoratism. However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its flexibility. If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. iirc hunting without a license is offered as an example; potentially being lawful in some kingdoms, Insolance in others, and warranting the death penalty in others. The severity of the charge being decided by individual kingdom legal practices and the attending judge. I also tend to think that with the truth invariably coming to light sans ESP, that this flexibility is used to take into account extenuating circumstances and what really happened. Conversely, familiy connections could influence the charges being lessened to allot a less severe penalty. it often comes across in this forum that the aristocrats are untouched by the law. in truth they are not. the favortism they have in its eyes is in the penalty stage. the alph judicial system favor innocence over guilt and has ESP to get to the truth of the matter. with a direct insight at the truth behind a charge, trials are rather straightforward and not dragged out by legal motions or circumstantial evidence. either you did it or you didn't. however there is also an underlying sense of true justice as someone that is technically innocent of a specific act can be coincidently fined for their role in a crime. <> actually canon sources beyond those written by Aaron Allston cite the Thyatian corruption as a key attribute. corruption is also given as the motivation for so many Thys leaving the empire to travel to other parts of Brun and set up their Thy derived minorities there (Darokin, Glantri, Wendar, Kara, etc.). in many ways corruption is more prevalent in Thy due to its more centralized government and its beauracracy. on the other hand, the Alphs are far less unified in terms of government. i cannot say the same for beauracracy as that aspect of Alph is rather vague. Alph aristocrats really have no need to be corrupt as the alpher society favors them to begin with. plus....their being disinterested in political matters negates political corruption. if any aspect of alpher society is corrupt it is probably the mundaners that need those corruption related aspects to find those edges in competing against the mages. << The difference is that Thyatis may be corrupt, but at least it has a sound baseline. Alphatia doesn't even have that.>> i am not sure. there is a strange rationality in alphatian social structure....a sense of "order amid the chaos". actually the society is probably the best means to maintain a sense of order in a rather chaotic land where there are so many near omnipotent mages. it's not like Alpherland is alone in this trait either. Glantri caters and even pampers the magist sect at the expense of the commoners. the HKs build their whole culture around the conquest and subjugation of peoples to their beliefs. and i am sure that the HKs bear no fears of legal retribution at beating to death a peasant or two. Kara has its class structure with favors the minorities over the native majorities. Darokin has its major Trade Houses which surely garner a state of preference as compared to smaller merchant outfits and commoners. And so on and so on.... > So in short you claim that a society not based entirely on strictly maintained laws is automatically corrupt and evil - I'm sure the elves would be sorry to hear that! Even the elves have laws. And they apply to all, high and low, as King Arthur said in the film.>> yes. elves have laws but what are their laws? they are elven laws, probably common sense "thou shall not kill" type laws. One thing that is overlooked in Mystaran (and RW medieval/renaissance) Laws is the divinity of rule aspects that follow monarchs. in the RW monarchs were not subject to common laws as they made the law and enforced it. their authoirty in such matters was validated by their divine rights as the noble class. > >2nd: What is it about Alphatian society that is absent from other Mystaran > >societies and admirable, or finds a more admirable expression in Alphatia > >than elsewhere? Remembering that the liberty (or, rather, freedom) to do > >whatever one wants is, in Alphatia, limited to a minority proportion of the > >population (very opressive restrictions apply to the vast majority of the > >people, enforced by Imperial Law). > > > > So at the same time you say that freedom is whatever somebody wants it to be, but at the same time you deny that choice to the Alphatian commoners ? Personally, I think they value the 'freedom' of Alphatia as much as the aristocrats do. They won't get that freedom to the extent that the aristocracy will, no, but I still think they value it.>> Alperland is by no means perfect. however i do think that the social system there is well suited for its populace. with its simple chaotic and individualist nature it also a highly complex and multifacetted setting in Mystara. imo that aspect breeds more adventure potential than a typical "cookie cutter" rpg kingdom based on King Arthur's Camelot where everything is black and white. << I seem to recall that commoners are not actually allowed to wear spider silk (only mages get that) and even have a restriction on the hair styles they are allowed to adopt. Thats not freedom, thats an oppressive police state...>> yes. spidersilk is restricted to aristocrats. it's not really a big deal. besides cotton clothing can be worn with equal coloration and makes by the mundaners. it's merely a matter of clothes used. back in the middle ages those long pointed toed shoes were restricted to nobles and knights. i am unsure where you got the hair length mandate. i recall that there are example given at how typical alphers where thei hair based on typical occupations and why they do so. all i recall is that slaves are restricted to hair length depending on the desires of their owners. anyway...none are to a point of justifying the "police state" addage. slaves are slaves in any nation. thyatis is given as being more leniant on its large slave population due to the rather weak and often referred to aspect that former slaves often rise to political positions. the most often offered thy arguement for their slaves is the ability for a slave to bye his own freedom. that's fine and good. but what is often left out is that slaves have to acquire that coinage and they have to keep it. being slaves their potential for a monthly income is doubtful and unrealistic. likewise what money they are capable of gaining would be in small quanitities and would have to be gained legally, as a slave owner can have his slave severely punished for theft. thyatian law officially protects a slave's earnings from being confiscated by the owner. however, a slave owner is surely to garner more weight in a thyatian court than a typical lowly slave. anyway...a slave's bid to buy their freedom is a longshot at best. though their freedom may only amount to the cost of a week's stay at an inn, it might as well be a like trying to buy the inn for them. << Not to mention the fact that a human slave is not worth more than a horse - a restriction penned in law, to prevent goodly wizards from protecting the slaves they really like! >> where did you get that reference? i clearly remember the alphs have their slaves assessed at higher numbers to prevent their demise at the hands of nonslave alphs. the value beingthe restitution to the owner by the individual that killed the slave. the only counter given to this is the taxation of these slaves on these assessed values which coincidently (not intentionally) balances out the tendency to overinflate slave values. and anyway....i am intrigued at the idea that just because the Alph law does favor them, that people have the visual image of alph aristocrats walking down the streets dispatching mundaners and slaves with one hand and doling out fine money with the other. imo such unwarranted displays of aggression are totally out of character with the alpher racial mindset. now i could understand seeing a similar scenario in certain occupied barbarian lands....afterall to the alphs they are only barbarians. :-) plus the tendency for the occupying mages to cause the natives to rise up and oust them also bear this out. anyway....i would restate that alph and thy should not be immediately compared to each other. they're too different internally to warrant a common point of comparison. if alphs are to be compared to any mystaran culture and critiqued then magocracies such as Glantri, Herath, and even Minrothad are the wiser choices for comparison against. you could toss in the elven nations as well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:23:09 PDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Mass Combat Resolution System. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>I like this updated version of the War Machine rules. I was just >thinking: What do you recommend be done with the old stats for armies (as >seen in the PWA's for instance)? Could you think of a factor to multiply >them with, should they be used as they are, or do you think they should be >recalculated entirely? << As James pointed out, there is not really a factor that could be applied to this new set of War Mach rules (MMCS) as this system takes some different factors into consideration than the old War Mach system did. I believe that the Armies Team for the next installment of the Mystaran Almanac will calculate both the old WarMach BFRs and BRs as well as the new MMCS BFRs and BRs for the armies that we are putting together. That way, people are not limited to using just one system or the other. I might also point out that both James and myself spent considerable time developing this model because we were inherently dissatisfied with the old WarMach rules which tended to be open to considerable min maxing and unrealistic results (like rapidly raised reserve units with unrealistically high BRs in comparison to regular reserve units). We both feel that this system is superior to the old one in quite a few ways not least of all in the new system for calculating BRs and the new system for calculating training bonuses. Anyway, thanks for your comments ... keep 'em coming! Cheers Adrian Mattias ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis:Why Alphatian society oughttobeconsidered Chaotic Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Alphatia. Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 > years without being split from within and without? > Well, a couple of points on that: 1) The most operative, but OOC point: it's a fantasy, game country. So if the designers say it's been around longer than dirt, it has, and the same processes that would have long ago reduced such places to the proverbial ash heap of history don't apply. 2) Well, we don't know that they've been degenerating over the course of 2000 years - certainly not continuously, they haven't. Were they as they are now? Or have they just sort of forgotten that things weren't so narcissistic and degenerate on occasions? Even the scanty, but informative, "canon history" provides clues - during the first couple hundred years, they worked to build up the Empire, and (though it doesn't say it outright), seem to have cooperated in that endevour (the implications are all towards that) - so presumably they weren't quite as self-centered at the time (it helped, no doubt, that originally they were all part of the same "club", the Followers of Air. The "Fragmentation of Belief" probably undermined that, a little, but there were likely still residual aspects of what might be called "national unity"). Plus, during that time, Nithia was around, and one gets the impression that these two places were cordial. Nithia's presence seems to have had a positive influence on Alphatia - note the "coincidence" in the fact that Alphatia's "First Decline" begins at the same year that Nithia disapears. So perhaps Nithia helped prop up Alphatia. Then Alphatia moved into a period of degeneration and decay, culminating in a huge series of revolts (not just the Thyatians, but eventually most of the Empire seems to have had revolts - these others were largely stamped out once Alphas decided to "cut his losses" in the West, but it took a long time, and it took a quarter of a millenium for the Empire to recover). Alphas the VI was a hard-ass, who imposed a stern, strict discipline by imposing harsh penalties on fecklessness and disobediance - he whipped the Aristocrats back into line - they were compelled to become more responsible in governing and maintaining the Empire, by force (force of Alphas, and force of circumstances). Alphas IV comes off sounding Lawful (Neutral or Evil, most likely). By his steps the Empire went on a new period of recovery, followed by another period of strength: former abuses were not eliminated, but were reduced in scope and thus destructiveness. Narcissism was right out under Alphas VI's reign, and probably his immediate successors as well. So it wasn't a continuous process of degeneration, dissilusion, and decay. This renewed period of strength lasted for some time, until the last century and a half or so, when the narcissistic, nihilistic ethos made a revival in a number of guises. Most of the Alphatians seem to be unaware that things could be, or ever were, different (see also "Melnebone"), though Tylion IV seems to have been a hard-ass in the mould of Alphas VI - but for several reasons he was unsuccessful where Alphas VI was successful. Though Tylion IV managed to instill a partial sense of responsibility in his daughter, the others found him merely irritating - there was no obvious crisis of the kind that allowed Alphas VI to impose his harsh reforms, so people weren't inclined to take the need seriously. Also, the other reason was that Tylion IV was himself a bit erratic and prone to fly off the handle. Thus, when the "Spike Assault" against Thyatis came a-cropper, the Grand Council could, reasonably, blame not the condition of the Empire for that failure, but Tylion IV for launching an "ill advised, unessissary" attack in the first place. Thus things went on, under a new ruler, but more or less the same, and Tylion IV went down in history as the bad guy. You can see inclings of this (and Tylion/Terari's opinion of it all seeps through a bit) in DotE as well. Eriadna's Tylion-instilled sense of responsibility and duty (even though her personality, like that of her peers, is more naturally that of a "party girl"), along with recognizing good advisors when she found them (Torenal, for example, and her father himself, who still hung around) did give the Empire a "false dawn" of renewed apparent strength - but it was built solely on her personality, and ability to convince and persuade, and not deeper changes in Alphatian society. But since Alphatian rulers are long lived, this could go on for some time, at least. But the foundations are weak, because one person holds it, barely, together - and, again, her own natural inclinations are towards disipation and narcissism. . .and both Torenal and Terari are gone now. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:51:29 PDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >In my defense, the primary reason I insisted Alphatians had to have a >strong >moral sense was the incredible length of their empire. If I'm to believe >(as DOTE seems to indicate) that its one huge monolithic empire that has >existed in pretty much the same form for 2000 years, then I believe that is >a strong indication of a people with a "super human" morality. For an >empire to exist that long, one would have to assume that the same things >which tore down Rome and other empires just simply isn't working in >Alphatia. Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 >years without being split from within and without? Of course it wasn't morality that kept the Roman Empire together and then a degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. It has been said that human morality is something that is determined internally (some behavioural scientists believe that it is linked to genes). Some people have high moral standards, others have low moral standards, some people have weird moral standards but when you are generalising by talking about the people of an entire nation it is pretty safe to say that their morality is no different than the people of any other nation. That is why I have found this whole Thyatis vs Alphatia moral debate mildly amusing. Despite what James would say (I know how much he is a fan of Thyatis) the Thyatians really are no different morally to the Alphatians. It is just that Alphatia (when it was still around on the surface world) was following a path based on magical superiority (hence the importance of magically gifted people) while Thyatis was following a path based on military conquest (hence the relative egalitarianism - anyone whether slave, magician, fighter or whatever who could help in the conquest effort was a bonus to society and therefore to be respected). But still in Thyatis as in Alphatia the wealth and power of society is concentrated in the hands of the political elite. The only difference is that to be a member of the political elite in Alphatia you have to be magically gifted, in Thyatis it doesn't matter whether you are or not so long as you are able stab the other guy in the back when he is not looking! Same situation with Rome. Despite what Plutarch and others would have us believe, moral degenertation had nothing to do with the collapse of the Roman Empire. If anything it was symptomatic of the decline of the Empire which was as a result of the exhaustion of the conquest strategy by Rome. Rome had been built on the wealth provided by centuries of conquest but after the mid 2nd Century AD new conquests were costing the Empire more to conquer and hold than they were gaining from the conquest. The Roman Empire would have been able to survive had they been able to alter their economy to take advantage of another source of growth (perhaps trade and commerce or industrial revolution) but the inherent factors required for such a change were not available at the time because the neolithic paradigm had not been exhausted. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:04:14 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Mystara Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/2/00 8:53:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: << and thus you get things like Hattian >Half-Orcs and the Dragonlord series... Where are Hattian Half-orcs? Haven't come across them yet... On another note- while back in my Alma Mater town a few weekends ago, I was able to pick up a couple of Mystara books for cheap at my old game shop (Dragonmage, completing that series for me; Son of Dawn; >> Son of Dawn, IIRC... I couldn't finish the sucker... James A. Mishler Magister Mystaros Mystara Lives! Check out the excellent Official Mystara Website: http://dnd.starflung.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH In-Reply-To: <20000503025129.50327.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 May 2000, adrian mattias wrote: > degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. It has been said > that human morality is something that is determined internally (some > behavioural scientists believe that it is linked to genes). Some people It's also been said that it isn't genetic. > have high moral standards, others have low moral standards, some people have > weird moral standards but when you are generalising by talking about the > people of an entire nation it is pretty safe to say that their morality is > no different than the people of any other nation. > Not true at all. Culture is, in part, concerned with morality, and a wide variety of cultures have adopted somewhat to very different moral codes. Try contrasting Puritan morality with that of the Mongols. Contrast acceptable behavior of the Old West with that of NYC at the same time. > That is why I have found this whole Thyatis vs Alphatia moral debate mildly > amusing. Despite what James would say (I know how much he is a fan of > Thyatis) the Thyatians really are no different morally to the Alphatians. They most certainly are, as their society is based around a different set of ethics than Alphatia. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Haven't been able to get into Dragonmage and Son of Dawn too much, but I >did read the Black Vessel. Not a bad read, overall, though the ending was a >bit rushed. I actually liked all three of these. I thought Dragonmage was the best of that series--Dragonlord took forever for me to get into (a nice change from the Penhaligon Trilogy that got worse with each installment). The one that I still haven't made it through is the one in Landfall (can't think of the name). But yes, I agree that The Black Vessel was one of the best Mystara novels, althought the ending was indeed hurried. Strange--I read that one more recently than any but Son of Dawn and my second time through The Tainted Sword, but I remember less of Black Vessel than any other. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:23:59 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: IronWolf Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = KevinT Stein) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Damn, I can't even FIND the Black Vessel. I haven't even heard of Son of Dawn. I really wanted to read the former, since it was a Savage Coast novel. IronWolf Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > >Haven't been able to get into Dragonmage and Son of Dawn too much, but I > >did read the Black Vessel. Not a bad read, overall, though the ending was a > >bit rushed. > > I actually liked all three of these. I thought Dragonmage was the best of > that series--Dragonlord took forever for me to get into (a nice change from > the Penhaligon Trilogy that got worse with each installment). The one that > I still haven't made it through is the one in Landfall (can't think of the > name). But yes, I agree that The Black Vessel was one of the best Mystara > novels, althought the ending was indeed hurried. Strange--I read that one > more recently than any but Son of Dawn and my second time through The > Tainted Sword, but I remember less of Black Vessel than any other. > > Patrick > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Of course it wasn't morality that kept the Roman Empire together and then a > degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. > > That is why I have found this whole Thyatis vs Alphatia moral debate mildly > amusing. Despite what James would say > Would it surprise you if I said I agreed with you, at least to some extent? I agree in the sense that morality as such plays no direct role in success or failure of a nation - indeed, immoral behavior is at times, at least in some ways, arguably *helpful*. But in other ways, or at least beyond a certain point, it isn't. That's where judgement comes in. This was, more or less, more to the original point I was trying to make, but 1) I perhaps didn't make the distinction as clear as I might have and 2) we got sidetracked (which is fine with me) deeper into the discussion of morality or not and away from the aspects of how this might or might not be helpfull. Sure, in the case of Rome, morality played little role in what happened. However, some things can be said to be harmful to the success of a political enterprise, and these things might have a moral aspect: 1) Venality - to the extent to which funds that otherwise could be put to use defending or otherwise maintaining the society are diverted to throwing lavish parties or enchanting some facinating, extravagant, but useless magic item, this can be detremental. Ok, sure, up to a certain point, it might be fine - I mean, who doesn't like a good party or neat magic item? But "moderation in all things" - going too far can be extremely harmful. 2) To the extent to which a ethos of self-involvement infuses those who are responsible for maintaining the civic administration, thus turning them away from their duties towards narcissism, this isn't helpful - I.E. in Wrath, Thyatis would certainly have been better served if it's officers and nobles were drilling with troops and administering the Empire instead of out partying. And in the case of Alphatia - to the extent to which the Aristocrats grow increasingly disinterested in military or administrative matters, and let their mundaner bookeepers go unsupervised while *they're* out cavorting or researching spells to turn Servants arms into tentacles, that's not helpful (as someone else pointed out, " if any aspect of alpher society is corrupt it is probably the mundaners that need those corruption related aspects to find those edges in competing against the mages." -- so while the Alpher Aristocrats turn their attentions to other matters, embezzlement and other shenannagans would increase, no longer checked by responsible leaders). As I pointed out in my other recent mail, so long as Eriadna - instilled with a sense of responsibility despite her own natural inclinations - is keeping a watchful eye on the Empire's own matters, *and* prodded by a feeling that she must (the character description "strongly implies" that she only does "distasteful" dutys of rulership when she has to, as quickly as possible, so she can return to doing what she'd rather be doing. Whether that is sleeping around, slaughtering slaves, or giving alms to poor orphans and widows - in other words, spending her time on arguably "good" or "bad" or "indifferent" things doesn't matter so much as the fact that she's *not* spending as much time on governing as she could be - one might say that since the Alphatian Empire is fairly decentralized as such things go, it doesn't need a full time Empress, but that would be inaccurate - there's always someone who could use supervision to keep them from fingering gold from the imperial treasury and misapropriating it, or someone to be pursuaded, if we decide they can't simply be ordered, to perform this or that thing that the Empress might think would be benificial). So, rather than "order from chaos", what we end up with is a structure where people are off "doing their own thing", and if too many of those who are in charge are doing that, then who's minding the store? If no one is, or not enough people are, then the place is in danger of being blown over by the next strong challenge. 3) Sure, morality doesn't directly enter into it - until the point where one might go too far. To the extent to which people have no "stake" in upholding the society, and feel that they don't have one, they're less likely to be very enthusiastic in supporting it (it's really hard to get people who feel they're simply subjects, who'd fare no better or worse under different masters, from fighting too hard on your behalf. I mean, why bother? Especially why bother on behalf of so-called rulers who don't bother themselves?) Or if they're so outraged that they revolt - to that extent, one either has to be incredably cruel (so people fear so much what will happen if they revolt that they won't attempt to) or reasonably decent (and laws allowing you to treat folks with relative impunity don't cut it) - "middle grounds" are dangerous, because if they hate you (remember what Machiaveli said about making yourself hated), but don't fear you enough (and remember what he said about that, too), then you're truely toast. You're probably better off treating most of your own people fairly well (what you do with conquered subjects that you enslave only matters a little), not on grounds of morality, but simply "enlightened self-interest" - treat them well enough and they won't feel inclined to revolt anyhow, plus they'll feel they have more of a "stake" in things (if they're well treated, then changing masters and becoming someone else's subjects becomes less attractive - you're more likely to fight harder to keep things decent, not be indifferent to the outcome). Note that this does play a strong role in the Thyatian/Alphatian dynamic - which clearly indicates that the Alphatians had trouble, dispite all their supposed power, holding off the Thyatians, because of that "wreched Thyatian habit" of granting citizenship. . .that is, they had trouble until one of the more significant border/contested areas, Dunadale, was allowed to develop a system of governance much closer to the Thyatian model (with citizenship and elected officials) than the Alphatian one. It gave them a "stake", and the "crawling border problem" pretty much ended (see DotE). Sure, the rest, away from the border, can be Charmed, drugged, or intimidated into servility, but all these things (including Charm spells) tend to make the affected person somewhat less useful (less personal initiative, less creativity, less energy/activity, more need for direct command - which in Alphatia isn't always forthcoming because the leaders would rather be off indulging themselves than supervising a bunch of scruffy minions - again, the fact that they're indulging themselves instead of helping injured animals is less important than the fact that when they're doing that they're not supervising their minions). So, the alternative is fairly clear, which can lead us to a conclusion about Alphatia - ruthless brutality against the subject population (the vast majority) in order to instill the proper fear in them is required to keep them from revolting. There are advantages to that (keeps them passive and aquecent to things), but also drawbacks. 4) "Feedbacks" - again, morality plays little direct role, but one must properly receive and analyze information, face up to problems as they appear (meaning being willing to admit to the existance of problems), so that a solution can be formulated. Here, again, this is where, IMO (and this is certainly an opinion), the Thyatian system has advantages - most facets of Thyatian society have some representation in government (even ex-slaves - that fact has been important in facilitating reforms). Thus, each segment has the ability to bitch about things (common citizen's elected officials can gripe on their behalf, nobility-appointed Senators can gripe on their behalf, and of course civic ministers have the Emperor's ear, and can gripe about problems, too). In Alphatia, most of the society's opinion not only isn't "included" in the process, but their opinions are considered unworthy in all respects (the notworthy, and very important, recent exception was Torenal, who for "romantic reasons" had the Empress's ear, till he kicked the bucket). Thus problems will reach the attention of those who have to deal with them in Thyatis far more quickly than in Alphatia, and in the latter country if the "wrong sort of person" bitches about things they're more likely to be punished severely for having such impudent temerity than listened to, much less having the problem addressed. We see that at work here with various posts about how Alphatia is, in effect, the best of all possible worlds. These almost universally express things from the point of view that an Alphatian Aristocrat, not an average Alphatian, would have (things are, of course, fine and near perfect, seemingly, for them, because everything is set up to cater to them and their self-image). This dynamic may have a moral component to it, but what matters is the social effect - to the same degree that, from a pure success/failure point of view it doesn't *really* matter if the problems are "solved" by cruel or benign methods, so long as they are faced and successfully dealt with. This is what I was getting at in my original post that started this week's discussion of the topic: unwillingness to admit to problems does not allow Alphatia to deal with them. Knowing, conciously, that there is a problem ("Empire in Decline") allows Thyatis to deal with it. While in Alphatia, there is a unconcious sense that things might not be as good as everyone thinks (there's a "First Decline" mentioned, implying that there probably is a "Second Decline", but no such "Second Decline" is mentioned anywhere. BUT - if there wasn't a "Second Decline", then there would simply have been a "Decline and Revival", or "Setbacks and Restoration".) This self-delusion goes so far as insisting that the Alphatian colonies in Alaysia/Ylaruam "crushed" their Thyatian counterparts a century before al Kalim - when, indeed, the colonies of both lasted a century longer, and the Alphatians lost theirs before the Thyatians did. Things like this matter. They do have a moral component, but with a generally indirect (but still important) effect. The fact that Alphatia "lacks a sound baseline" in many of these areas is certainly important. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > responsible leaders). As I pointed out in my other recent mail, so long as > Eriadna - instilled with a sense of responsibility despite her own natural > inclinations - is keeping a watchful eye on the Empire's own matters, *and* > prodded by a feeling that she must > Oh, I got self-distracted by a lengthy digression, and forgot to finish that thought: Anyhow, point was, as long as Eriadna used her Tylion-instilled sense of grudging responsibility to spur her to fullfill her obligations as Empress, things would go ok. If and when that stopped, then things could go wrong. Also, as pointed out: the "positive influences" of both Tylion and Torenal are gone now - so no one's there to prod her to attend to Official matters, or bring matters to her attention that she might otherwise be left unaware of. Those two key advisors role's are unfilled, post-WotI. This hardly bodes well for things, since the current Alphatian situation is very precariously based on personality rather than solid institutions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 22:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mystara Books In-Reply-To: <24.47844b5.2640f12e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:04 PM 5/2/00 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/2/00 8:53:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time, >jsmill@WANS.NET writes: > > Where are Hattian Half-orcs? Haven't come across them yet... > >Son of Dawn, IIRC... I couldn't finish the sucker... Got further than I did, evidently. Kind of a yawner, eh? ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:01:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = Kevin T Stein) In-Reply-To: <038b01bfb4b7$047737c0$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:21 PM 5/2/00 -0700, you wrote: > >The one that I still haven't made it through is the one in Landfall (can't >think of the name). Rogues to Riches, isn't it? Can't seem to find that one anywhere. I'll have my sister check with Bookman's in Mesa, or check myself the next time I'm in town... >Strange--I read that one more recently than any but Son of Dawn and my >second time through The Tainted Sword, but I remember less of Black Vessel >than any other. Weird, huh? Same thing happened to me with the James Bond novels (the Ian Fleming ones). I recall enjoying most of them (particularly From Russia With Love) but I can't remember much specific about them (aside from the movies). I'd venture to say the reason the Tainted Sword sticks with you is due to how bad it was (though it was the least objectionable of the three... it actually had some decent parts). ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:14:00 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = Kevin TStein) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Rogues to Riches, isn't it? Can't seem to find that one anywhere. I'll have >my sister check with Bookman's in Mesa, or check myself the next time I'm >in town... Yeah, that's it. The Bookman's in Flagstaff had a copy last time I was in there, but that was at least two months ago. The north Phoenix Waterloo branch had a couple as well before it closed, but I know they sold most of their merchandise to the Anime shop that took it over and I never saw any Mystara novels there after they sold out, so i don't know if the novels made it out to Gilbert or what. It'd be worth calling them next time you're in the valley though. >>Strange--I read that one more recently than any but Son of Dawn and my >>second time through The Tainted Sword, but I remember less of Black Vessel >>than any other. > >Weird, huh? Same thing happened to me with the James Bond novels (the Ian >Fleming ones). I recall enjoying most of them (particularly From Russia >With Love) but I can't remember much specific about them (aside from the >movies). Yeah. I don't think I'd remember anything except that The Black Vessel was in Almarron if it weren't for the cover--that illustration reminds me that there're dog-people and Mazrooth :-) >I'd venture to say the reason the Tainted Sword sticks with you is due to >how bad it was (though it was the least objectionable of the three... it >actually had some decent parts). Yeah, I thought it was the best of the three by far--that's why I reread it. But there was a lot that I had completely forgotten about (although since I read that shortly after the second book came out, i had a while to forget). I don't think it would've stuck with me all that well if I hadn't just reread it. Although the other two are definitely pretty memorable for being pretty darn bad :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:41:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] In-Reply-To: <200005021812.OAA29605@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 2 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > > > > Equal rights for women has always been problematic for instance. If this > > was true in a fantasy world, then i believe the setting would be very > > different from what your average fantasy world is described as > > ofcourse. > > > Well, on this I do want to comment, because, lets face it - noted MML list > members asside, the RPG hobby has always had a hard time attracting female > adherents. If one made that aspect realistic, it would be even worse off. > Yes, I don't have any problem with the few places where they do try to > model more typical social relationships, but the "ERA Countries" don't > bother me much. I think this is what the game designers thought aswell. But are you sure that it is true? Even if female characters would have a hard time enlisting in the army, it doesn't neccesarily make them less interesting as player characters. Game designers should keep in mind that the child-like image of the woman was mainly dominant in the 19th Century. Before that, especially among the lower classes it was pretty common for women and men to share many of the same roles in society. What I think is a problem is that these issues are very rarely adressed at all. Thyatis is one noteworthy exception. I'm having a hard time imagining a semi-feudalistic society with medieval technology where women and men have the same opportunities in every situation. Note: To people just reading this discussion: This is not a poilitical statement. I'm just talking about elements inside the game. Perhaps this note is unneccesary, but I could easily see it starting a flamewar, which noone would want. H�vard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. In-Reply-To: <00b701bfb4a3$21850d60$6232140a@friendlynet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > As far as the D&D alignment system goes...I've come to understand law vs > chaos as a simple argument of law versus individual freedom. Because > freedom is good, chaos can be considered good. Except freedom can also be called anarchy, which everyone (hopefully) realizes to be bad. Also, a key element of the D&D alignment system was that chaotic chars were out for themselves, neutral chars watched out for the group and lawful chars cared about everyone - which again shows a clear scale where selfishness is wrong and altruism is right I think the makers of D&D got it more or less correct - chaos and individualism is wrong, law and order and unselfishness is right. - Mischa [U]ntold human generations had suffered poverty before, most often very quietly. But poverty becomes much, much less tolerable when it exists in the midst of plenty. - Yves Simon, on the Great Depression ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:57:03 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Alignment (was: Alphatia andThyatis) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed While this was certainly the original intent of the D&D alignment system, it later (In the Companion set on) allowed for creatures being lawful but evil, or chaotic but good, which I think gives much greater latitude. For example, see the description of the hydrax or the drakes. > > > As far as the D&D alignment system goes...I've come to understand law vs > > chaos as a simple argument of law versus individual freedom. Because > > freedom is good, chaos can be considered good. > >Except freedom can also be called anarchy, which everyone (hopefully) >realizes to be bad. Also, a key element of the D&D alignment system was >that chaotic chars were out for themselves, neutral chars watched out for >the group and lawful chars cared about everyone - which again shows a >clear scale where selfishness is wrong and altruism is right I think the >makers of D&D got it more or less correct - chaos and individualism is >wrong, law and order and unselfishness is right. > >- Mischa ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 05:59:23 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii <> You are trying to apply modern ethics and moral to the fantasy setting, which is probably why you end up with odd conclusions. The funny thing is that, for all its advancements and renaissance feel, Alphatia is very much feodal at the core. Which, incidentally, is very much in touch with a medieval setting, much more actually than many other nations. The difference with RW feodal structure is that nobility isn't the result of having the same blood as an ancestor that did something important for the country (as is generally the case in RW medieval countries: noble families were the descendents of knights and others that helped the original king forge his kingdom), but instead those that have magical talent. Except for who is an aristocrat, thus, the society is indeed very much alike. Once you have noted that difference in who's noble and who isn't, the Alphatian society does make sense, and is in no more a decline than, say, medieval France or England. Let's take law and justice. Okay, the Alphatian laws and sytem of justice aren't fair and just. Who said they should be? The laws are aimed at maintaining order, keeping the aristocracy in power. Justice isn't fair, it's biased toward the aristocracy. In medieval countries, laws weren't fair and weren't designed to be just either, but to maintain dominance of the nobility over the populace. There's no difference here. If it worked for medieval France, there's no reason why it shouldn't for Alphatia. Thinking that justice should be just, is applying modern, and especially American, morals; there is little reason why Alphatians should think in those terms. And the fact that it isn't just doesn't mean it's unstable either, otherwise I wonder why Americans (who have so many weapons at hands' reach) don't revolt because so many laws are unjust, or misapplied, or outdated, or flawed. So, aristocrats can walk around and kill mundaners at a whim. Well, so could a medieval lord visit his lands and kill the peasants, or the French king could have anyone embastilled simply by signing a decree. No big deal, it doesn't stop the society from running. Of course, in Alphatia, 4/5th of the population are mundaners. 20% are aristocrats, which is quite a high ratio indeed, more so I believe than a medieval country ever had. With such a high percent of the population in the "right" bag, it's no wonder the society has no desire to change it. Of course, those mundaners, that are treated badly (though, I insist, not particularly more so than in medieval England), may want to change things to their advantage, and try to revolt. After all, there was the French Revolution. But the comparatively high ratio of aristocrats, plus their grater power than in the RW to enforce the law being mages, would tend to make this rather improbable. As a reminder, the French Revolution was initiated not by the downtrodden populace, but by the bourgeoisie, who were richer than the aristocracy but with less rights. Transposed to Alphatia, it means that it would require the Gentry to start a revolution. Throughout most of history, and today still, there are less fortunate people who trim while others are disgustingly rich and powerful. Yet, without principles of democracy or communism, those less fortunates rarely rebel against their elites, but survive and give their children all the possibilities they can in the hopes that they will fare better than they. In the RW, the medieval peasant didn't grab his fork and kill his lord, but hoped his son might become a craftsman; in modern USA the unskilled worker doesn't take his assault gun and kill the president, but hopes his son, thanks to the education he pays him with his hard-gained money, will become a well-off businessman. In Alphatia, the servant obeys his master and hopes that his son will be born with the talent for magic and become an aristocrat. Yes, the mighty rules in Alphatia. Whether that's the best system, the one under which most people are happy, is unlikely, but why would it mean that it would be fundamentally flawed and corrupt and unstable? I think not. <> But is there a problem? Alphatian society works as is. You know, you mentioning that the Alphatians don't see the flaws in their society makes me want to make a parallel that I think will be interesting (we'll see your reaction), with the US. In the US, the sacred constitution allows anyone the freedom to carry arms, so that everyone and their dogs (or, most unfortunately, their children) have guns. This has the consequence that the US have the death rate by gunshot of a third world country. Any European (or other non-third world citizen) thinks the Americans are crazy to do nothing about it, and that this is a fundamental flaw in their society that may well lead them to their eventual demise (because a simple movement of anger/despair in a ghetto nighborhood might easily turn into a full scale civil war). Yet the Americans don't see this as a flaw. (what would be America without people shooting at each other in the streets?) BTW, there certainly are Alphatians who don't agree with their society as it is, and recognize its flaws. Certainly not all Alphatians are "blithely unaware" any more than all Thyatians are "insightful". Alphatia isn't a monolithic block any more than Thyatis is, and thus there ought to be people with dissensing opinion in Alphatia as well. One such is Favian Vern (post-WotI, in Nace lands). I have other things to say on the subject, especially on the matter of what you call Un-Alphatia, and of your rather romantic view of the way democracy works (esp in Thyatis...), but I'll wait for the first reactions to this batch. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 09:04:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Karameikan School of Magecraft (was Andrew wrote: >Geoff Gander did a pretty cool alternative scenario writeup where Alphatia >didn't sink (with some developments similar to ones I had theorized about, but >with a bunch more and far more well developed :). It should be available on >Shawn's site... which I'm not going to plug anymore this week, at least until >I get that check he promised me. :) Thanks! I wrote it up because I'm one of those people who would rather have Alphatia remain on the surface (all that open water, and the distribution of the surviving islands afterwards, was not very pleasing, aesthetically, to me; that, and the fact that I don't particularly like the way TSR handled Alphatia's arrival in the HW - it creates more problems than it solves, IMO). >The only disadvantage to Geoff's proposed timeline is that it only goes up to >1015 AC, and leaves a bunch of plotlines dangling. Darn that guy! Aha! Is that a challenge!?!?!?! If so, well, there's a good reason why it ended in 1015 - I had been working on several projects. I *do* have some notes for 1016, and I have been toying with the idea that, if it doesn't take up too much time, and people submit ideas to me privately (hint, hint) as to what they think could happen, given the run of events up to that point, I might keep this running every year - post a year's worth of events for DMs to use. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 06:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Knott <> agreed <> You are right in making a distinction between HW Alphatia and the SW remnants. Really, we have several Alphatias, that can't be discussed as one without making gross generalizations and mixing stuff that shouldn't. Thus, we have pre-WotI Alphatia, FCA, NAE, NACE. James in his Un-Alphatia mixes freely the three post-WotI ones, which I think is a misleading shortcut. <> Very true, the NACE has had to adapt to its new conditions (no mainland, lesser ratio of mages, threatening Thyatis and others, revolting territories, ...) and work out new rules for itself. This isn't over. And indeed the problems that you mention will plague them in the future. Have you been reading MA1017 preliminary discussions without me knowing? <<2) The Alphatian Empire in the Hollow World has indeed become quite "enlightened" in their dealings with the Hollow World natives, but within their own floating continent the "Spellcasters rule!" mentality should remain unchallenged. By its very nature the floating continent is too isolated for us to have any source of information about it other than the propaganda put out by the empress Eriadna.>> In fact, the MA team is also discussing way to explain and work with the discrepencies James calls Un-Alphatia. The trend is to make FCA more like pre-WotI Alphatia, though we don't just dismiss the Un-Alphatian elements either. James, I think you should like what we do with it. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:18:01 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: [repost] Mystara FAQ v7.9 Comments: To: FMML MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mystara FAQ version 7.9 by Herv� Musseau The latest version of this document can be found at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/Mystara/mystfaq.txt Table of contents: Introduction to Mystara. (no updates) Geography and History of Mystara. (no updates) Personalities and Immortals of Mystara. (7.9 fixed a typo) Miscellaneous. (7.6 added 1 shop, 7.6 updated Shawn's site URL, 7.6 updated Leroy's site URL, 7.7 added Mystara chat link, 7.8 added French Mystara Mailing List link) Spoiler warning: This FAQ contains information that is for the DM's eyes only. If you are a player in a Mystara campaign, by reading further you may spoil the fun of having to figure things out (especially if you read most of section 3 and part of section 4). If you intend to read the FAQ nonetheless, I advise to not read the answers before asking yourself whether you should know the answer in-game or not, and skip it if need be. Introduction to Mystara. Q: What is Mystara? A: Mystara is an imaginary world created by TSR as a campaign world for roleplaying games using the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. Q: What is a roleplaying game? A: Roleplaying games are games in which people play the role of imaginary fantastic characters like warriors or wizards and try to complete an adventure under the guidance of a game master. Q: I never heard of Mystara, but I know a setting called the Known World which looks pretty the same. What's the difference? A: Mystara got a name as a world only recently; before that, it was often referred to as the Known World, although Mystara is more than just the Known World. Geography and History of Mystara. Q: So, what's Mystara? The Known World and what else? A: Mystara is basically composed of 2 main parts, the Outer World and the Hollow World, plus 2 moons, and some other exotic settings. Q: A Hollow World? A: Yes. Mystara, unlike our earth, is hollow, an empty sphere. It has an internal sun that lights the interior world, making it inhabitable. It holds old civilizations that are now extinct on the Outer World, placed there by the Immortals with strong magic preventing them from evolving much or dying away. The only entrances to the Hollow World are through underground passages between the two worlds, and through the holes that stand in place of the north and south poles. Q: And the Outer World? A: The Outer World is mostly like our Earth. It comprises: * the Known World (now called Old World), where the most civilized countries are located, * Alphatia (only before AC 1009), * the Savage Coast and Hule, * the southern continent, called Davania, * the eastern continent, called Skothar. Q: Why is Alphatia part of Mystara only up to AC 1009? A: Because Alphatia, which is a large continent east of the Known World, sank into the ocean in AC 1009, at the end of the major event called Wrath of the Immortals. It is now a floating continent located in the Hollow World. Q: What exactly is Wrath of the Immortals? A: Wrath of the Immortals (or WotI) is an epic campaign that TSR published to update the Known World. It deals with the Great War that involves the major countries of Mystara and that was caused by the Immortals to obtain control of the Nucleus of the Spheres, a powerful artifact located under Glantri. At the end of the war, Alphatia sinks, Glantri and Thyatis have suffered dramatically from the conflict and three new powers enter the political scene of Mystara: the Heldannic Territories, the Hagiarchy of Hule and the "revamped" Kingdom of Karameikos. Q: On the continental map published in the Master DM's book, there are some empires I've never read anything about in other products and on the list, like the Empire of Dorphin IV or the Empire of the Great Khan. Do they exist? Where can I find information about these? A: The map in the Master set is "wrong, wrong, wrong!" In the series of articles written by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine, the first in the series (Dragon #153) explains this all. The map was released by a very imaginative Thyatian, and wrongly accepted for the truth. There is no Empire of Dorphin IV, no Empire of the Great Khan, etc. Also, as you probably guessed, the size of the Thyatian Empire was largely exaggerated on this map... Q: I've already heard of the Known World, and of the Hollow World too, but never as Mystara. What does all this mean? A: This is because Mystara is a very old world, one of the oldest created by TSR, and, as TSR grew, so did Mystara. All of these product lines are relevant to Mystara: * Mystara, of course, * the Known World and most stuff that were made for D&D (as opposed to AD&D) like these old good modules B and X, or the Gazetteers, * the Hollow World, * Red Steel/the Savage Coast, * Blackmoor. Also, some products bearing the label First Quest are related to Mystara. Q: Blackmoor? I know a Blackmoor, but it's part of Greyhawk, isn't it? A: Blackmoor was, like Greyhawk, the campaign world of one of TSR's founder, Dave Arneson. It was later placed in both Greyhawk and the Known World (as a past kingdom in the later), effectively making three Blackmoors exist. It seems there is no further relation between the two Blackmoors of Mystara and Greyhawk, however, although some people made the assumption; on the other hand, Judge's Guild's Blackmoor likely has much in common with Mystara's, as the DA series for the Known World was also written by Dave Arneson (so that JG First Fantasy Campaign is considered Mystara-relevant). Q: Where is it located? A: Blackmoor was a techno-magical kingdom that blew itself up a few millennia ago. The event shifted the planet's axis and Blackmoor is now the north pole. Sources are contradictory as to where Blackmoor stands; some place it on Brun, some on Skothar. Arguments in favor of Brun are the position of the Inn Between the Worlds and the Nucleus of the Sphere, and the fact that the Known World stands there; this is the solution proposed in some Gazetteers. Arguments in favor of Skothar are its sort of canonical status, and the feeling that all civilizations should not systematically come from the Known World; this is the solution proposed in the Hollow World box. Note that, if you consider the Hollow World solution to be the truth in your campaign, the map in the box does have a typo : the names of Blackmoor and Thonia have been reversed (Blackmoor was north of the Empire of Thonia according to all other sources). Bruce Heard's opinion on this matter : "Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologist on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonizations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara! :)" So officially the answer is Skothar. Q: Ok, and now what's Red Steel? A: Red Steel is a setting that is part of Mystara (west of the Known World), although it was released as a stand-alone setting. Personalities and Immortals of Mystara. Q: I have a player of the Church of Karameikos, and I want to give him an Immortal, I suppose that it's a church with many Immortals (like the Greek / Latin church) but in Gaz 1 I didn't find any list of Immortals... A: These are the immortals of the Church of Karameikos, as told by Bruce Heard in an old Dragon Magazine: Asterius (Eternal of Thought), Leader Kagyar (Eternal of Matter) Ilsundal (Hierarch of Thought) Valerias (Hierarch of Matter) Vanya (Empyreal of Time). Also, although Chardastes is a native Traladaran Immortal, he is venerated through the auspices of the Church of Karameikos, not the Church of Traladara. This is extrapolated from info in B1-9 In Search of Adventure. The Immortals of the Church of Traladara are: Halav Petra Zirchev. Q: You spoke of Immortals, what are they? Are they Gods? Powers? A: Mystara has a different pantheon when compared to other D&D settings. Most notably, it has no gods, but beings called Immortals. Immortals are mortals who, through their deeds, have reached a higher status granting them more power than mere mortals. Basically, however, Immortals are not very different from Gods of other settings. Q: Is Jaggar von Drachenfelds the Star Dragon? A: No. According to Bruce Heard's article in Dragon #170 http://www.tsr.com/Dragon/Backissues/170jun91/170FromHatchlingTo.txt he became the Star Dragon for a brief period but relinquished the title for absolution. Q: Is Rad gone after Wrath? A: No, he's been absorbed into the Radiance, and some of his life force was used to lessen the drain of the artifact on Mystara's magic (thus there is only a Day of Dread each year, and not a week as in Wrath). Rad is not dead though, but he has been put into a slumbering state to reflect on his deeds (and hopefully change). This is covered in detail in the module Mark of Amber. Q: So is Rad back after Mark of Amber? A: The outcome of the module may vary from campaign to campaign, as the actions of the PCs decide his fate. The module's three outcomes are: 1. He returns as a mortal with no chance of being sponsored back to Immortality and no access to the Radiance (failure); 2. He returns as a mortal but can become an Immortal again sometime (normal success and most likely outcome); 3. He returns as a full Immortal (complete success). Later products avoid the issue, and the general consensus is that he should return but be left in the background, keeping low profile for some time, either rebuilding his following (if an Immortal) or attempting to reach Immortality again (if mortal). Few favor him becoming a mere mortal as most love him as an NPC. Q: Does the Radiance draw from Energy or Entropy after Wrath? A: In Wrath, the Radiance is altered to draw from Entropy instead of Energy. Yet in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, the rules for the Radiance are exactly the same as in Gaz3, stating that it drains from Energy. This is a mistake in G:KoM; the authors overlooked that event in Wrath and forgot to update the info from Gaz3. Thus the new rules for the Radiance are undefined, as are the effects of Entropy-draining. Various suggestion have been made on the MML, though. Q: Where is Teldon? Is he dead? A: This is a short excerpt from Dragon Magazine #207 about Teldon's fate: "One of the attractions of the Magicians' Guild, its location in Karameikos' largest city, was its downfall. Such a collection of powerful (and often egotistical or secretive) mages in one location created great potential for conflict. The final straw was the creation of a mechanical beholder by one of the more advanced apprentices, powered by an Immortal's artifact. The resulting creation was turned loose in downtown Specularum, leveling a good section of the South End. The creation was defeated by the head of the Magicians' Guild, Teldon, but at great cost. Both mage and monster disappeared in a pure white ball of fire, and while they are assumed to have both been destroyed, they may instead have been teleported to some far-off location. The fact remained that the Magicians' Guild proved itself too dangerous to remain in Specularum, and lost one of its most valuable supporters." Q: And Bargle, where is he? A: After the fall of the Black Eagle Barony, Bargle is an itinerant villain that pops up here and there. He can easily be used as a recurring villain who the PCs bump into way too often (to their taste). He has been spotted in various place, including Esterhold and Serraine (always helping the evil guys, of course), but can have business just anywhere you wish. Well, good ole Bargle. Q: Is Kol a Shadow Elf or a Kobold? A: Earlier sources always presented Kol as a kobold who, using the rules from Gaz10, could cast spells. In Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, he is said to be one of the deformed shadowelf babies raised by the humanoids, thus explaining both his high intelligence and spellcasting abilities under the AD&D rules. It is both an interesting plot, and a disappointment to many, as it removes again the humanoids any glint of chance that they can achieve something by themselves. Many people ignore that sentence in G:KoM (or ignore the box altogether, preferring good old Gaz3), and some love the potential of that plot. As always, use whatever version suits your campaign and your taste best. Miscellaneous. Q: You mentioned something about D&D not being AD&D. What does that mean? A: Mystara was the world designed to be used with the rules of D&D (often called OD&D to better distinct it from AD&D and from the generic term D&D which could mean both; OD&D stands for Old D&D or Original D&D - note that some few people call it BD&D for Basic D&D to distinguish it from even older rules). It appeared in the old boxed rules: the Expert box, the Companion box and the Master box. Most of the earlier modules designed for D&D were set in this world. Recently, however, Mystara has been converted to AD&D (along with Red Steel), but many people who play in Mystara do it with the old rules (or their reediting, Rules Cyclopedia). Q: When I read stuff about Mystara I keep seeing acronyms I cannot understand like WotI or PWA. What do they mean? A: There is a list of Mystara relevant acronyms at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/Mystara/acronyms.html Q: I heard that the Mystara line was canceled. Is this true? A: It is unfortunately true. And Red Steel is canceled too. Some novels pertaining to Mystara may be released as part of the First Quest line, and modules may be part of the Odyssey line. AFAIK, there is no such products in preparation however, though Wizards of the Coast (which bought TSR) has expressed its willingness to publish material for dead worlds, but never namely mentioned Mystara. Keep faith. Joshuan's Almanac was the last product of Mystara (to be precise the novel "The Black Vessel" has been released after, and to be even more precise it deals with the Savage Coast) and the Savages Baronies the last of Red Steel (except for online exclusives). Q: But I saw in TSR's 97 preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR has released these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com and http://www.tsr.com. Q: So, if TSR has dropped the line, how can I get new material for Mystara? A: There are many people on the web who love Mystara and have taken upon themselves to keep Mystara alive (and well alive). There is a mailing list dedicated to Mystara (MML) where people discuss together about it, exchanging ideas, points of view, and more. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com. In the body, have the single line: subscribe Mystara-L . It has 278 people, as of June 99. As a comparison, there are 395 people on the Realms list, TSR's flagship world (April 98). There is a French Mystara Mailing List (FMML) too, to join go to http://www.mystara.com.bi/ put your email in the designated area and you're on. There is also the TSR Mystara Message Board (MMB) at http://tsronline.wizards.com:80/mb/system/addnewuser.shtml where discussion revolves mostly around alternate Mystaras. There are also many pages around the net dedicated to Mystara, sometimes with lots of interesting materials. Some of these pages are organized into a Webring, check http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html for info about the Mystara webring. Now more than ever you should express your views on how Mystara should be brought back at http://CWSpot.com/Mystara/SaveMystara or join the SaveMystara Writer's Group whose goal is to get as many adventures and articles to the periodicals as we can. Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara mailing list? A: The digests are collected at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Mystara/MailingListArchive/ and the oldest ones (prior to 1998) can be found at ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/mailing-lists/mystara-digest/ However for your convenience the most interesting articles the list has come up with are collected and sorted on Shawn's page at http://dnd.starflung.com Q: Where can I find the old messages of the Mystara message board? A: There is no archiving of the board. However for your convenience the most interesting articles the board has come up with are collected and sorted on Shawn's page at http://dnd.starflung.com Q: Where can I find a complete list of the material published for Mystara? A: The most complete lists to my knowledge is at http://dnd.starflung.com/prodlist.html It includes rulebooks and modules published by TSR, Mystara-relevant Judge Guild supplements, a list of various magazine #s that contain adventures, rules or world description pertaining to Mystara, novels, TSR net resources, and Clark Ashton Smith stories related to Averoigne. All of these are ranked according to compatibility with Mystara (explicit, implicit, compatible, etc.) and the type of product (campaign source, rules supplement, adventure, etc.). The list of the Dragon magazines that mention Mystara, including the Voyage of the Princess Ark series, can be found at http://dnd.starflung.com/dragon.html . Q: And where can I buy those products? A: Since the Mystara line is out of print, it is difficult to find them. If you're lucky you can find them in any shop that sells RPG stuff, or buy second-hand books. Some places where you can find Mystara stuff on the web: http://www.dragontrove.com/listing.html http://www.titan-games.com/ http://www.hitpointe.com http://www.eskimo.com/~darkh/ http://www.ida.net/users/groverm/sleeping.dragon/sdh.html http://www.djhobby.com/catalog/index.html http://www.sagesguild.com/ http://www.crazyegors.com/ http://www.sentrybox.com/ http://members.aol.com/aleeder454/ http://www.cyberdungeon.com/store/catalogue/dungeon.html the newsgroup rec.games.frp.marketplace and I got a special page for all Mystara books at Amazon.com: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/amazon.html Q: Where can I find the FAQ for the Mystara mailing list? A: Check at http://www.lesbois.com/members/malacoda/mmlfaq.htm or http://www2.crosswinds.net/~malacoda/mmlfaq.html AFAIK there is no plain text version of this FAQ. Q: Is there a Mystara chat? A: yes: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/travelersofmystara . ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James writes: >>Similarly, I find it extremely odd that Un-Alphatia rebuilds a vastly powerful military in one year (between the 1st PWA and PWA II) - one *could* argue that the Alphatian forces improved during the course of the war as their originally not-so-well-trained fighters gained combat experience; but those would have been the ones stranded on the surface (and this is a fair explanation, for example, of why Alphatia's officers tend to be higher level than Thyatis' officers by 1010: the victorious Alphatian's officers have gained experience, while most of Thyatis' experienced officers either had to be removed, because they had been corrupted by Valerias, or had been killed or captured in battle). But since such folks would be stranded on the surface, that doesn't explain how Alphatia aquired such Supermen for their military by PWA II. There *is* an explanation for that, however: Un-Alphatia. Anyhow, as we have seen, the Alphatia that emerges post-WotI is *NOT* the "preserved" form of Alphatia, either in the HW or on the surface. It is some sort of "Doppleganger Alphatia" - something inserted in the place of the original Alphatia, having (surprisingly) many of the positive attributes of their long-time sworn enemies, the Thyatians. Meanwhile, some mystical force has, seemingly, transfered those attributes from the Thyatians, so that they no longer have them, and are left instead with the least-likable attributes of "True Alphatia" and few if any of "True Thyatis's" own admirable qualities. << Sorry if this is a dead topic, but for some reason my digest wasn't delivered yesterday, and I am only just reading this now. Before I get creamed for saying the following, this is the way I handle Alphatia IMC. The Alpher (military) forces left on the surface should advance in quality very rapidly. I always got the impression that due to the interference of various mages (read as the leaders of Alphatia), the Alpher military was never really a very professional unit. After Alphatia sunk however, that left all of those Alpher military commanders (probably many of whom are fighter types) to their own resources. Without interference from the mages, they should be able to whip their troops into shape fairly quickly. [Note: This is with respect to the poor shape that they were in, in the past, and is not in comparison with troops of other nations.] The point of this is that a surface Alphatia could very rapidly develope into an un-Alphatia, as you call it. I think there would be some tension between the remaining military factions (mostly non-magic users) and the remaining Bellisarian monarch (magic users), but the resulting "new Alphatia" would be very diferent from the old one (and could very possibly turn out much like Thyatis). Having said that, I totally agree that there is no basis for the HW Alphatia to change its mind set to that of the un-Alphatians. This just makes no sense to me. Neither is there any basis for Thyatis to become un-Thyatis (unless or until Thanatos takes over). This could be an interesting turn of events where Alphatia turns into Thyatis (because it is now ruled by military officers instead of mages), and Thyatis turns into Alphatia (because it is ruled by an Entropic who just reaks havoc with all of their legal systems). An added twist would be to include tension between military Alphers and Bellisarian Alphers. Perhaps the military Alphers set up their own empire on the eastern side of the IoD. Thyatis might even encourage this, as it sets up a "buffer" empire between them and the mage Alphers on Bellisaria (not that they have much to fear from Bellisaria). Thyatis may even be setting up all of those ex-Alphatian military leaders for entrance into the Thyatian empire.... HW Alphers are a bit harder to explain. The only reason that I can come up for this (again IMC) is that the immortals knew of dangerous threat that would be coming from the HW in the near future. They sent Alphatia there -- intact -- so that Alphatia could deal with it (or at least occupy it). Sure in the beginning, the Alphers might try to conquer some of their neighbors (anyone they fly over), but once they make contact with their real, immortal intended, enemies, they will lose sight of just about everything else and focus all of their Imperialistic intentions on them. [IMC this was Ixions intent all along...to goad Rad into destroying Alphatia in such a manner that it would necessitate immortal intervention to save them all. Otherwise WotI just doesn't make sense to me.] Ok, my rant is over...flame away. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:12:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Women in Game Settings & in RPGs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I think this is what the game designers thought aswell. But are you sure > that it is true? > Well, I haven't done any polls recently, so I don't know for sure, no. Originally, at least in AD&D, there was a female strength cap, but it was excised in AD&D2E, which might say something about how people reacted to that. Or it might not. I guess TSR would have whatever poll or focus group or hostile mail they accumulated over such things that led to them deciding to make a change. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:13:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > well....alignment is always subject to the general consensus that > dictates what is right and what is wrong. it is really a matter of > perspectives on morality. > Not in game - people acting according the consensus of perspectives among Drow society aren't able to become Paladins - the alignments don't work that way. We could debate whether morality in the real world is relativistic, but it wouldn't have anything to do with Mystara, so would be a pointless (but perhaps interesting) digression. > the Alpher mindset as fully justifying their society. Even the "second class" > mundaners see the wisdom of the 2000+ year culture and accept the way things > are. > Oh, I'm sure the Alphatian nobility believes that the servile classes see the wisdom of things as they are - which probably leads to shock, bewilderment, and outrage every time there's a revolt ("why are they doing this? After all, we feed them, cloth them, take care of them. Without us, they'd be lost - they have the minds of children" are typical reactions to that sort of thing - never mind that it's the "children" in the servile base that feeds, cloths, and otherwise maintains the infrastructure that supports a worthless parasite class - the Aristocrats always think it's the other way around). But as for what the servile mundaners actually think, well, that's very likely another matter - especially if, as has been asserted, they value freedom as much as the Alphatian aristocracy; people who value freedom but don't have any are *not* happy campers. Well one might say they could have "hope" for their children. So we get a little role-playing to see about that: Father: "I know life is hard for us, but if we're extremely lucky, our child will be found to have a talent for magic! Then he'll be taken from us at an early age, to be taught magic and raised with the attitudes and mores of our masters! {Extreme Luck is needed, because among Alphatians the knack for magic is heritable, and also seems to be recessive.} Mother: "Did you say 'extremely lucky', or 'extremely unlucky'?" Father : "Umm. . . .errr. . ." > > However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its flexibility. > If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly > states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. > And from day to day! Based upon the momentary whims of the rulers! Again, on second thought, one can see the drawbacks in that, too: Something might be required one day ("I decree that everyone wear nose rings, because my latest doxy wears a nose ring, and I think it looks cute. So you will wear them in homage to her") and then outlawed the next ("That hearless hussy left me, taking the family jewels with me. Therefore, it is forbidden to wear nose rings henceforth, because it is an emblem of treachery and reminder of my love being betrayed") Of course, that's a silly example, but one can think of much worse examples - you're going along, building up a successful feathered hat business against all the odds out competing an Aristocrat in the same field. Then the Aristocrat chats up his buddy, the King. And suddenly the next day it is decreed that, by Royal Grant, the Aristocrat is given a monopoly over the feathered hat trade, and your business is confiscated and given to him - you are hereby relieved of the burden of engaging in such a trade, which must have been mentally wearying for a mundaner such as yourself, and instead assigned to the Aristocrat's household to help him run the business that was formerly yours. No need to thank your King for his magnaminity. Stuff like that used to happen, and would surely happen often in places where people (Alphatian Aristocrats) have power without responsibility. But, gives new meaning to the phrase "no way to run a railroad" > > yes. elves have laws but what are their laws? they are elven laws, probably > common sense "thou shall not kill" type laws. > Which are a far cry from "thou shalt not wear spider silk, wear your hair long without permission, or be found living outside the household of a master" type laws. (btw, the hair restriction reference is on p.14, "Player's Guide to Alphatia", under "Hairstyles", last paragraph). > and anyway....i am intrigued at the idea that just because the Alph law does > favor them, that people have the visual image of alph aristocrats walking > down the streets dispatching mundaners and slaves with one hand and doling > out fine money with the other. imo such unwarranted displays of aggression > are totally out of character with the alpher racial mindset. > you miss the point - the fact that it's set up that way (one can kill a slave for any reason or none) would certainly have a tendency to cow the slave into abject submission and servile abasement (not contented happyness, as some seem to think) - because they can be dispatched for getting out of line ("of course, being refined aristocrats, we didn't want to do it. But the lesson was needed.") > now i could > understand seeing a similar scenario in certain occupied barbarian > lands....afterall to the alphs they are only barbarians. > Which brings up another point, the not-too-enobling Alphatian attitudes that they form some sort of master race - again, it's true that lots of people (most, in fact) tend to think they're better than those other folks, but the Alphatians are on an extreme end of that spectrum ("Well, yes, but at least they're honest about their opinion that other races are scum!" Well, so was Hitler. I think we know that such attitudes don't lead to enlightened utopias.) > critiqued then magocracies such as Glantri, Herath, and even Minrothad are > the wiser choices for comparison against. you could toss in the elven nations > as well. > Well, I'd be happy to do that, too (and have) - and given those examples, while Glantri and Alphatia might differ in degree rather than kind, it would certainly seem that the lot of the average Glantrian is significantly better than that of the lot of the average Alphatian. Herath of course eats some of its non-Aranea folk from time to time, but who's to say that the Alphatians don't eat non Alphatians from time to time, just for the experience? After all, such scum are little better than cattle anyhow. And Minrothad is far better off socially. Actually, drawing a comparison to Thyatis is one that allows for contrasts that are favorable, or at least equivilent, for Alphatia - after all, all legal protections aside, a slave is a slave and isn't likely to be jumping for joy in either place. And corrupt behavior is a problem for both (as is treachery if you really think about it - the Alphatians just have better press when it comes to that; but they engage in it all the time. Indeed, we might have a contest some time coming up with canon examples, and it'd be a much closer contest than one might imagine). But if the comparison is made to, say, Minrothad or Darokin instead of Thyatis then it's no contest, really. But I like to give my debating counterparts a fighting chance. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 08:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: In the Phantom's Wake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of the Thunder Rift module called "In the Phantom's Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me whether they thought it was any good, and whether and where they think it might work in Mystara. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web� Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 08:32:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > Despite owning WotI, I don't ever plan to use the adventure parts -- I > > like Alphatia and would rather not have it go *poof* in my campaign. > > And, I might add, I like the Alphatia AS DESCRIBED in DoE -- Degenerate, > > Chaotic bits and all [Hi James!] > > > Hey, I do, too - I just don't like the new, panglossian interpretation of > it all (wherin the motto changes from "Alphatia Above All" to "Best of All > Possible Worlds". Hey, James you should pay closer attention to who's on who's side when someone new joins the discussion. ;-) On that note, I /was/ actually agreeing with you as I said I liked it the way it is described in DoE, and implied that I wasn't to keen on how it changed as a result of WotI when I said that I wasn't planning on having it go *poof*. > The degeneracy, chaos, nefarious scheming wizards (or, in another place, > nefarious scheming Senators) - the dark underbelly is what generates > adventure oportunities. Well exactly. Not that I even know if my PC's will ever get over to that side of the world -- The campaign I'm planning I intend to concentrate on the Western region of Brun, starting from Darokoin and moving West from there towards the Serpent Peninsula and the Savage Coast. Due to a preference for sea going and sea related adventures, I might even consider the northern coast of Davania, but I haven't decided yet. Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things I *like*!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web� Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:34:31 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of the Thunder Rift >mod= ule called "In the Phantom's Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me >wheth= er they thought it was any good, and whether and where they think it >might = work in Mystara. I bought a couple of the Thunder Rift modules and accessories, before fin= ally giving up (they were a little too basic for my tastes). I never bought "I= n the Phantom's Wake" but I did look through it at the bookstore once. This mod= ule is the one that actually ties Thunder Rift and Mystara together. I don't recall the specifics, but it had something to do with an evil mage escapi= ng Thunder Rift through a magical portal that opens somewhere near the town = of Bywater (from "The Tainted Sword" novel), in the region of Penhaligon, Karameikos. It was one of the few higher level modules for Thunder Rift, and was done= in a layout similar to the old Expert level modules (and the one really good Thunder Rift accessory "Thunder Rift", which was a campaign setting for i= t.) = So, it is already set in Mystara, but it doesn't set the valley of Thunde= r Rift itself in Mystara, and isn't really that much of a TR module. = All told, the TR modules weren't terrible, I suppose, and certainly fille= d their roles as "introductory" modules (I'd have enjoyed having them in my= early years of gaming). The best, as noted, was the campaign setting one,= which was designed for higher level campaigns, and actually was pretty we= ll done. I never bought the boxed set modules, so I don't know how those wer= e or not. Hmmm... now you've got me wanting to make Thunder Rift an actual location= on Mystara... it would be easy to do, even given events of "Phantomn's Wake"= - just make it a portal from elsewhere in the world, rather than on a diffe= rent world entirely... Thanks, Jenni. As if I didn't have enough to do... ;) Anyway, hope I helped some. We really should do a review site of all the Mystara products, like the Kargatane does on Ravenloft. Maybe Shawn could= host it, and we'd just post some various reviews and things by ourselves. Is t= here anyone interested in something like this? (IIRC, the topic has come up be= fore, but never really went anywhere, but what the heck...) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You are trying to apply modern ethics and moral to the fantasy setting, which > is probably why you end up with odd conclusions. > Well, if Aristotle and Socrates (who argued against the ethos promoted by the Sophists, which was actually very reminicent of the Alphatian ethos) are modern, then I plead guilty. > The funny thing is that, for all its advancements and renaissance feel, > Alphatia is very much feodal at the core. Which, incidentally, is very much in > touch with a medieval setting, much more actually than many other nations. > Actually, not - because in the feudal structure there was a theory of reciprocal responsibility, which is totally absent from the Alphatian theory. Now, we can debate how well or badly theory was actually practiced, but the fact of the existance of a ethos of mutual responsibility was very important - and led to abuses being decried and even acted against in ways that simply wouldn't happen in Alphatia, since in theory as well as practice what is Due goes all one way. > The difference with RW feodal structure is that nobility isn't the result of > having the same blood as an ancestor that did something important for the > country > Well, again, one can't place too much emphasis on that, either, since the knack for magic is heritable in Alphatia and recessive, those who become aristocrats tend to be those who's parents were aristocrats. Over time since this trait has been "selected out" of the general, servile population (each time someone with it is born to that group they are removed from it and put in the Aristocratic group), it would become less and less common for children with that trait to ever be born to the lower classes. Same as if you had a system where blue eyed blonds were separated from the others - eventually (after two millenia? you bet!) the genes for blue eyes and blond hair would be found almost exclusively among the select group, and only very rarely (if ever) would they appear among the general population. So it's about as common, I'd wager, that someone not born a noble becomes one in Alphatia as it does in the rest of Mystara (where, admittedly, that sort of elivation to lordly status is much more common than in IRL feudal societies). > > Let's take law and justice. Okay, the Alphatian laws and sytem of justice > aren't fair and just. Who said they should be? > All I know is that folks go around claiming they are. . . > The laws are aimed at > maintaining order, keeping the aristocracy in power. > As I myself said, using almost the same words (ok, I used "maintaining the status quo", the same phrase found in the PGTA, instead of "maintaining order") > Justice isn't fair, it's biased toward the aristocracy. > That's not justice as such, then - that's laws, and rules, but not justice. > > Of course, those mundaners, that are treated badly (though, I insist, not > particularly more so than in medieval England), may want to change things to > their advantage, and try to revolt. > We should all remember who has the power to portray these things that Herve mentions in Events and the like. And then ask ourselves if the Alphatia depicted here has been the Alphatia/European Union depicted when push comes to shove. See, that's what really. . .vexes me. And, Serfs revolted against their status not infrequently. Sure, they were crushed, for the same reasons they'd be crushed in Alphatia (at least without a whole lot of help from outside), but that didn't stop 'em from trying. > aristocracy but with less rights. Transposed to Alphatia, it means that it > would require the Gentry to start a revolution. > Gentry is probably not a big class. In fact, it's probably an insignificant sized class, and even then mostly made up of "unfortunate" (magic-less) children of the nobility and the occasional odd wealthy adventurer. Hardly anyone else would have the ability to put ten big ones in the bank and keep it there - especially if, as has been pointed out, we know that the Alphatian society is completely geared towards keeping power, and wealth that is associated with it, in the hands of the Aristocracy. Thus it's probably not likely that there are all too many Freemen, either (after all, businesses and agricultural land acrue to the hands of the Aristocrats). So the Gentry don't have the same role as the bourgeoisie in France, because they're unlikely to have reached that "critical mass" of making up enough of a proportion of the population to get to that stage. In any case - what should be dropped is the pretence of utopianism and happy sambos singing odes to their wonderful masters in the fields, fighting hard on behalf of their lords (remember also, in the midieval era, peasant levies generally were sucky, and armies made up of them horrible. Sure, the Swiss and other folk where the commoner wasn't totally ground into submission developed decent fighting forces from within their population. But feudal states of the kind you're comparing Alphatia to had to rely nearly exclusively on armies made up of the aristocratic portion of the population, and some mercenary professional soldiers who had escaped crap status by being willing to fight for anyone who would pay them). > will fare better than they. In the RW, the medieval peasant didn't grab his > fork and kill his lord, > And, contrary to how Alphatia is often portrayed, he didn't willingly grab his fork and fight fanatically to defend his lord's position, either. > > But is there a problem? Alphatian society works as is. > Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn't. I'm willing to admit that parts of Thyatian society stopped working as it was, and thus required changes for the sake of survival. The fact that Alphatiaphiles don't or can't admit that is quite. . .telling. As I asked in a subsiquent post. . .well, you'll have gotten to that one by now, so I won't repeat it here. > society makes me want to make a parallel that I think will be interesting > (we'll see your reaction), > Well, we won't, because we're discussing Mystara. Of course, you might ask me via private mail. But since I tend to decry those others turn from discussing Mystara and instead start discussing IRL stuff on the MML, I really shouldn't do so myself (yes, I've been guilty of that in the past, but I'm trying to be better). After all, no one joined the list to discuss real world politics & problems. There are other groups for things like that, so if they want to participate in, or read what others have to say about such things, then they'll join such lists. It doesn't belong on the MML, though (same with discussions of relativism IRL as opposed to in the game system, etc). Sure, using real world analogies highlight Mystaran stuff is fine and usually appropriate, but that isn't what the above would lead to. However, as I said, you want to carry on such a discussion in private mail, and I'll be glad too. > BTW, there certainly are Alphatians who don't agree with their society as it > is, and recognize its flaws. Certainly not all Alphatians are "blithely > unaware" any more than all Thyatians are "insightful". > But one can draw useful distinctions between things, where if one area there is a large enough recognition that such persons are treated seriously, wheras in another area they might be looked on as kooks and oddballs who can't see how good things are ("what's this fool talking about? Can't he see we have a utopia? What's with it with this guy and giving the vote to scum? He sounds like some sort of Thyatian sympathizer, trying to undermine perfection." ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:53:57 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Arminath Wynter Subject: Re: In the Phantom's Wake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/00 10:16:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, strawberry@JAMM.COM writes: << I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of the Thunder Rift module called "In the Phantom's Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me whether they thought it was any good, and whether and where they think it might work in Mystara. Jenni >> It was a great module for beginning players, or a good mystery for an established group. The premise was simple: a magical astrolabe transports the party to the Hollandes, a ship and her crew that has been cursed to sail intul the end of time, or some other DM defined plot. The party has to find a way off and better be careful about it. It's good for any setting, as the Astrolabe was in the possession of an NPC that has the group use it and the ship is in some pocket demi-plane or dimension, but can be placed anywhere you need it.. Jim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:57:48 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Arminath Wynter Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/00 10:34:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << I don't recall the specifics, but it had something to do with an evil mage escaping Thunder Rift through a magical portal that opens somewhere near the town of Bywater (from "The Tainted Sword" novel), in the region of Penhaligon, Karameikos. >> Actually, that was 'Escape from Thunder Rift'. A module linking the Rift to Mystara, it was good for low level (3rd-5th level) PCs. I placed the Rift in the little valley shown on the north-northeastern part of the Karameikos map, it was a small 3 hex area and nothing was already there, so boom. :) Jim ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:56:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These are some things that I wasn't going to get into directly, because of the tendency to cause bad feelings, but since the points were raised I feel I need to address them: > > You are right in making a distinction between HW Alphatia and the SW remnants. > Really, we have several Alphatias, that can't be discussed as one without > making gross generalizations and mixing stuff that shouldn't. > As soon as they're portrayed as distinctly different, then it will make sense to talk about them separately, as distinct entities. Until then. . .well, it's hard to see them as different if they're portrayed rather uniformly, and hard to avoid drawing general conclusions from such portrayals, too. Unless you'd prefer that I invent what isn't there in order to fill in the gaps and create the distinctions that others did not - but it's been made very, *very* clear how welcome (or not. . .) my contributions in this area would be. > In fact, the MA team is also discussing way to explain and work with the > discrepencies James calls Un-Alphatia. The trend is to make FCA more like > pre-WotI Alphatia, though we don't just dismiss the Un-Alphatian elements > either. James, I think you should like what we do with it. > I hope so. It will be something to see. Again, I refer you to the above, though, and note that you in effect admit the same thing - that in the next MA the FCA will be made more like pre-WotI Alphatia. Which says something about what it wasn't made to seem like before. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Sorry if this is a dead topic, > Some would say the whole topic was "dead" when it re-appeared in the first place. 8-) > but for some reason my digest wasn't delivered yesterday, > and I am only just reading this now. Before I get creamed for saying the following, this > is the way I handle Alphatia IMC. > Actually, you won't get creamed for saying it, and you make some points that I think are useful ones, though they can be pushed too far (I.E. to the extent to which mages re-assert their previous perogatives in the Alphatian territories that remain on the surface, the military commanders would then no longer be "left to their own resources". Also, it's probably debatable the extent to which Alphatian military forces would be commanded by non-aristocrats, though I do tend to agree with you to some extent on that point, if only because the influence of Torenal would have been important in advancing military-minded fighters as opposed to promoting aristocrats to command simply because they are aristocrats - and that Torenal-influence would linger, at least for a time. But eventually the Aristocrats might decide they want control of their army back. After all, hard to keep power if someone else runs the army. Just ask the Mamluks how that works). > > The point of this is that a surface Alphatia could very rapidly develope into an > un-Alphatia, as you call it. I think there would be some tension between the remaining > military factions (mostly non-magic users) and the remaining Bellisarian monarch (magic > users), but the resulting "new Alphatia" would be very diferent from the old one (and > could very possibly turn out much like Thyatis). > It could be. But one of the problems is that people then tend to "back-project" things (assuming that because it's that way now, it always has been), or that these changes would occur very smoothy (as they have tended to in the post-WotI Alphatia, with the sole but significant exception of Esterhold. Ok, Zandor's monkeying wasn't friction-free, but it was about as benign and bloodless a "crazed dictatorship" could be, too) and without upheaval and societal problems and attempts to "turn back the clock" etc. Mamluk-Alphatia might be cool, though (the slaves take over! the Aristocrats become disposessed nobles!). But I don't think there's a chance of that. . . > Bellisarian Alphers. Perhaps the military Alphers set up their own empire on the eastern > side of the IoD. Thyatis might even encourage this, as it sets up a "buffer" empire > between them and the mage Alphers on Bellisaria (not that they have much to fear from > Bellisaria). > Keep 'em divided, though, and that prevents a potential problem from arising. > Ok, my rant is over...flame away. > No flames. Not that I won't get accused of flaming (that's de rigur), but that isn't my intent. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hey, James you should pay closer attention to who's on who's side when > someone new joins the discussion. ;-) > Ahh, ok. Sorry about that mace blow to the head. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Straight Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought 'In the Phantom's Wake' was something quite a bit different, Andrew. If I remember correctly, it is about some cursed item which sends the PCs to a ship crewed by skeletons in Thunder Rift. They have to gather clues to find a way out. And if they kill too many skeletons they may not be able to leave as there must be a certain number of creatures controlling the ship. One or more PCs could potentially be left behind if they approach the adventure in Hack n Slash mode. I owned it at one point and I'm trying to find another copy now. It is a bit basic but it can easily be changed to suit your tastes. I really liked it for some reason. And since it involves the use of magic to get the PCs involved it would easily work w/ Mystara. I would like to use it in Glantri myself assuming I can find my copy or replace it. James Straight ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Well, if Aristotle and Socrates (who argued against the ethos promoted by > the Sophists, which was actually very reminicent of the Alphatian ethos) > are modern, then I plead guilty. > (Actually, Aristotle and Socrates both - especially Plato/Socrates; sometimes it's hard to tell where Plato ends off and Socrates begins - held views that could also be considered very reminecent of some Alphatian views. My general point remains, but I did want to point out that I was aware of this fact. However, considerations of virtue and the like which are Socratic and Aristotelian would be very un-Alphatian, and I can easily see Alphatians making arguments similar if not exactly identical to those of the Sophists - or of the Athenian envoys as Thucididies portrays them at Melos; and, indeed, I made some posts about that some time ago). Point is and remains that these considerations that I'm raising are not exclusively "modern" ones. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:46:23 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Straight wrote: > >I thought 'In the Phantom's Wake' was something quite a bit different, >Andrew. = As I said, I don't own it, so it's entirely possible I got it wrong. Just= don't let it get around. ;) >If I remember correctly, it is about some cursed item which sends the PC= s >to a ship crewed by skeletons in Thunder Rift. They have to gather >clues to find a way out. = Isn't there a tie-in with Mystara, though? I thought for sure that was th= e one which either led PCs to a region near Penhaligon, or led them to Thunder = Rift from there... = ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:49:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Arminath Wynter wrote: > >Actually, that was 'Escape from Thunder Rift'. A module linking the Rif= t >to Mystara, it was good for low level (3rd-5th level) PCs. = Ahh... well, makes sense that that should be the title. :) Sorry for the misinformation, all. >I placed the Rift in the little valley shown on the north-northeastern >= part of the Karameikos map, it was a small 3 hex area and nothing was >already= there, so boom. :) Which valley is that? I don't recall a valley hidden there...j Did you ever work up a history for it (or tie in the "Thunder Rift" histo= ry with Mystaran history)? I'd be interested to see it, for sure. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:11:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You are trying to apply modern ethics and moral to the fantasy setting, which > is probably why you end up with odd conclusions. > Oh, one other thing on this: It seems I need to point out that it wasn't *ME* who was arguing that Alphatia was some sort of liberal society where everyone was free and modern. Indeed, it was *I* who was arguing the very opposite. Indeed, if you look at the points you made (that Alphatia is a society where the Aristocracy grinds down the servile majoirity, who are resigned to - not happy with, but fatalistically resigned to - their lot, and treated like peons), you'll see that these were the points I was making, and this is why the utopianistic view is flawed (the view of others, who insist that the situation is cool). You'll also note that it was I who took the part that these things that we would consider abhorent are the very things that make it an exciting place to adventure in (see Jenni's and my exchanges), and that it *SHOULDN'T* be transformed or re-interpreted into being some sort of "ideal society". These flaws lead to adventure, for the very reason that they'd cause friction, disatisfaction, nasty behavior, etc. So, in other words, you're accusing me of making arguments I didn't make. In point of fact, you're accusing me of making the opposite argument - in point of fact, you're accusing me of holding the positions that my worthy opponents in this debate have held (with one exception, that I'll get to in a moment) - so I think you need to appologize to me, and turn your attentions to countering their arguments with your sound analogies. I'm the one *fighting* against the tendency to transform Alphatia into a modernistic place and make it, in part or in total the "European Union of Mystara" or an modernistic vision of an Anarcho-syndicalist Utopia. Don't blame me for making it that, please. Now, the one exception is that I've made the argument that at least some of these Alphatian traits, carried to the point where they've been carried, are not conducive to super-strength, as people often seem to insist Alphatia as being. As John Walter Biles pointed out several times in a thread some time ago, and which your analogs support, Alphatia tends to seem similar to the Midieval German Empire (AKA "Holy Roman Empire"), which went through some periods of strength when under particularly dynamic, assertive, and lucky Emperors who were able to get themselves obeyed, but otherwise had more problems than you could shake a stick at and tended to "under-perform" compared to much smaller, but better organized, states. In other words, the points I made on this level are valid irregardless of whether it's a modern or pre-modern or downright ancient society we're talking about. (For other examples, take Persia, which even had a militant, warlike ruling class, but otherwise might be considered similar to Alphatia in that the Persians considered themselves apart from the subjects they had conquered, who then didn't fight well for them, and there was lots of internal factionalism after the reigns of the first couple ShahinShahs, and the Greeks were able to first hold them back in alliance and then conquer them under Alexander. Or take the Hellenistic Successor States themselves, who started out post-Alexander in very strong positions, but fought each other and were internally undermined, and eventually got ground down by smaller powers, till the remnants were gobbled up piece by piece by Rome). In other words, the points I made in this area were points similar to ones a renaisance-era author (like Machiaveli) might make, not really "modern" ones at all. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:26:47 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: In the Phantom's Wake In-Reply-To: <39104427.57C92128@jamm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" : > I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of > the Thunder Rift module called "In the Phantom's > Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me whether > they thought it was any good, and whether and where > they think it might work in Mystara. > > Jenni > Actually, Jenni, I own that module and was toying with the idea of putting the group through it after Katarina gets her ship, or possibly even before. I /suppose/ I could be convinced to give up that tack (to use some sailing jargon), if I had some substitute for it. I haven't actually planned out the details that far. To answer the question, though, I believe it is possible to set the module just about anywhere, in any time-space continuum and in practically any setting. As to the quality, I think it's fair to middling, but has an interesting premise not so often used in D&D- style FRP's. If you want, we can talk off-line about it. Cheers, Derek ----------------------------------------------------- This mail was sent through Uniserve's Web Mail at https://members.uniserve.ca/mail/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:38:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A.M.Merrifield" Subject: Re: In the Phantom's Wake Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 On Wed, 03 May 2000, Derek Adam wrote: > Quoting "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" : > > > I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of > > the Thunder Rift module called "In the Phantom's > > Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me whether > > they thought it was any good, and whether and where > > they think it might work in Mystara. > > > > Jenni > > > > Actually, Jenni, I own that module and was toying with > the idea of putting the group through it after Katarina > gets her ship, or possibly even before. I /suppose/ I > could be convinced to give up that tack (to use some > sailing jargon), if I had some substitute for it. I > haven't actually planned out the details that far. Oh pooh. You have too much Mystara stuff Derek! ;-) > To answer the question, though, I believe it is > possible to set the module just about anywhere, in any > time-space continuum and in practically any setting. Yes, from what others have said I can see that. > As to the quality, I think it's fair to middling, but > has an interesting premise not so often used in D&D- > style FRP's. > > If you want, we can talk off-line about it. Nah, that's actually okay. If you already have it and have plans to use it in your game, I'm certainly not going to do anything to deliberately jeopardize that -- I know how I'd hate that if the roles were reversed! In addition, if you're already intimately familiar with it, it would just be that much more difficult to run /you/ through it, wouldn't it? :-) BTW: I was asking primarily because I happened across a shrink-wrapped version for $6 US and the ship related aspect in the brief plug tugged at my sense of "what I'm currently compiling for my own campaign". Whoever it was that was looking for a copy, send me a private email (strawberry@jamm.com) and I'll tell you where I saw it. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com _______________________________________________________________________ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go _______________________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:44:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake] In-Reply-To: <20000503153431.4941.qmail@aw163.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Andrew Theisen : > "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" wrote: > > > > I was wondering if anyone here had ever heard of > > the Thunder Rift module called "In the Phantom's > > Wake". And, if so, if they could tell me whether > > they thought it was any good, and whether and where > > they think it might work in Mystara. > > I bought a couple of the Thunder Rift modules and > accessories, before finally giving up (they were a > little too basic for my tastes). I never bought "In > the Phantom's Wake" but I did look through it at the > bookstore once. This module is the one that actually > ties Thunder Rift and Mystara together. I don't > recall the specifics, but it had something to do with > an evil mage escaping Thunder Rift through a magical > portal that opens somewhere near the town of > Bywater (from "The Tainted Sword" novel), in the > region of Penhaligon, Karameikos. > > It was one of the few higher level modules for > Thunder Rift, and was done in a layout similar to the > old Expert level modules (and the one really good > Thunder Rift accessory "Thunder Rift", which was a > campaign setting for it.) I think you're confused, Andrew. You're thinking of the tie-in module, for low-level Expert characters (the name escapes me at the moment) that involved the dwarves at the north end of the valley, and a blonde mage that uses a magic portal to get to Bywater. "In the Phantom's Wake" involves an ocean-going ship. I know that doesn't seem to make sense, seeing as TR is in a valley, but if you'd read the module you'd know how it works. I'm trying not to give too much of the plot away, as I am still thinking of putting Jenni's character through it. > So, it is already set in Mystara, but it doesn't set > the valley of Thunder Rift itself in Mystara, and > isn't really that much of a TR module. Agreed. It is really a jumping off point for Mystara adventures. But, IMC, I wanted to place Thunder Rift someplace convenient, and decided to put it in three vertical hexes where the "Valley of the Hutaakans (sp?)" appears on the Karameikos map. [general mumblings about how TR isn't bad, to which I agree -- snipped for brevity] > Anyway, hope I helped some. We really should do a > review site of all the Mystara products, like the > Kargatane does on Ravenloft. Maybe Shawn could host > it, and we'd just post some various reviews and > things by ourselves. Is there > anyone interested in something like this? Sounds like a worthy idea. We could do it like epinions.com, only for Mystara products. ;-) Cheers, Derek ----------------------------------------------------- This mail was sent through Uniserve's Web Mail at https://members.uniserve.ca/mail/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:54:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Arminath Wynter : > In a message dated 5/3/00 10:34:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: > > << I don't recall the specifics, but it had something > to do with an evil mage escaping Thunder Rift through > a magical portal that opens somewhere near the town > of Bywater (from "The Tainted Sword" novel), in the > region of Penhaligon, Karameikos. >> > > Actually, that was 'Escape from Thunder Rift'. A > module linking the Rift to Mystara, it was good for > low level (3rd-5th level) PCs. > > I placed the Rift in the little valley shown on the > north-northeastern part of the Karameikos map, > it was a small 3 hex area and nothing was already > there, so boom. :) Great minds think alike, Jim! (Or is that, "Fools seldom differ"?) That's exactly where I put it. I wonder if TSR had some vague intention of doing that originally ... . It fits so well, we both noticed it. Cheers, Derek ----------------------------------------------------- This mail was sent through Uniserve's Web Mail at https://members.uniserve.ca/mail/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:59:23 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Alignment (was: Alphatia andThyatis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eyal Fleminger wrote: > > While this was certainly the original intent of the D&D alignment system, it > later (In the Companion set on) allowed for creatures being lawful but evil, > or chaotic but good, which I think gives much greater latitude. For example, > see the description of the hydrax or the drakes. I think the whole thing started with the Genie and Efreeti entries in the Expert set, though these were seen as "exception" to the normal behaviour for a long time. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:09:40 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Calvin wrote: > > The Alpher (military) forces left on the surface should advance in quality very rapidly. Without the support of the mainland, they will be stranded in the colonies, where they would have to adapt or die... so after a few years, the survivors would be at a good level of effectiveness, I suppose. > > The point of this is that a surface Alphatia could very rapidly develope into an > un-Alphatia, as you call it. I think there would be some tension between the remaining > military factions (mostly non-magic users) and the remaining Bellisarian monarch (magic > users), but the resulting "new Alphatia" would be very diferent from the old one (and > could very possibly turn out much like Thyatis). > Actually, it could even develop in a full scale civil war, with the non-magical kings of the IoD and Norwold supporting the military against Bellissaria and Thotia... An added twist would be to include tension between military Alphers and > Bellisarian Alphers. Perhaps the military Alphers set up their own empire on the eastern > side of the IoD. Thyatis might even encourage this, as it sets up a "buffer" empire > between them and the mage Alphers on Bellisaria (not that they have much to fear from > Bellisaria). Thyatis may even be setting up all of those ex-Alphatian military leaders > for entrance into the Thyatian empire.... > Hoping to use them to oppose HK espansion in the northern area, while using the HK threat to push the Norwold/IoD kings into joining the Empire. Thyatis might also set Tredorian (or another alphatian with a pro-thyatian attitude) up as a ruler in IoD to attract the sympathies of the Alphatian military/kings. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:21:39 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Derek Adam wrote: > >Agreed. It is really a jumping off point for Mystara >adventures. But, IMC, I wanted to place Thunder Rift >someplace convenient, and decided to put it in three >vertical hexes where the "Valley of the Hutaakans >(sp?)" appears on the Karameikos map. So where did you place the Hutaakans? (if you did at all, that is). Just curious- trying to get a general consensus (if possible) on placement of = TR. >> Anyway, hope I helped some. We really should do a >> review site of all the Mystara products, like the >> Kargatane does on Ravenloft. Maybe Shawn could host >> it, and we'd just post some various reviews and >> things by ourselves. Is there >> anyone interested in something like this? > >Sounds like a worthy idea. We could do it like >epinions.com, only for Mystara products. ;-) Haven't seen how epinions works. I'll have to check it out, look into a suitable format, and then maybe I'll pitch the concept to Shawn. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:19:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Hutaakans (was: "In the Phantom's Wake") In-Reply-To: <20000503182139.5432.qmail@aw161.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:21 05/03/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Derek Adam wrote: >So where did you place the Hutaakans? (if you did at all, that is). Just >curious- trying to get a general consensus (if possible) on placement of TR. Where did the placement of their valley on the map at the official Mystara site come from? I'm not sure when/if I'm going to introduce them to my Karameikos campaign, but as I'm working from the KKoA box, I know there's likely some stuff from Gaz1 I don't know ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:40:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Hutaakans (was: "In the Phantom's Wake") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau wrote: > > Where did the placement of their valley on the map at the official Mystara > site come from? I'm not sure when/if I'm going to introduce them to my > Karameikos campaign, but as I'm working from the KKoA box, I know there's > likely some stuff from Gaz1 I don't know ... > B10, Night's Dark Terror. Which is also one of the best OD&D adventures. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: A & T: Romantic Views MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have other things to say on the subject, especially on the matter of > what you call Un-Alphatia, and of your rather romantic view of the > way democracy works (esp in Thyatis...) > Sorry, but I'm having a reaction to this. I waited to find a polite way to express it, and I hope the below qualifies. I'll be blunt, but hopefully not rude. But, I find it ironic I'm being lectured by one of the persons responsible for the over-idealized and "romantic view" of Alphatia as scripted in the MAs. The dark, seedy underbelly of Thyatis has been on full display for over a decade. Anyone who's read the PWAs, JA, and the MAs could not possibly be unfamiliar with the negative aspects of Thyatis. Once Alphatia gets that treatement *THEN* I'll take the lecturing from you and your fellows on how I tend to emphasize the positive sides of Thyatis (and that I have the temerity to believe that there *are* some positive aspects in the first place, not just the horrible stuff) more than the negative more seriously. So while you're free to criticize me for concentrating on the other side of the picture, I really should ask you to walk a mile in "my" shoes before you do so. And, I mean, lets talk about "odd conclusions!" next time I see you pointing out the "odd conclusions" that some of those who have a "rather romantic view" of life in Alphatia, it'll be the first time! Folks are all over the board drawing "odd conclusions" from DotE about Alphatia, but I highly doubt you're readying a critique of *them*. But, do please share the things you have to say on those subjects. I'll be ready and waiting. See, unlike some others, I don't try to close discussion. You and they have a right to express your own "odd conclusions" but I have the perfect and absolute right to say exactly what I think about them (within the rules of the MML, that is, as interpreted and enforced by the Ogre). Also, since we're making mention of scripting and what will appear in the future, you probably Ought to read what I plan to write (including what I've already written in rough form and made available for you to review as Editor) regarding the 1017 Senatorial Elections in Thyatis before you conclude that I have a "overly romantic view" of how things work in Thyatis. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:53:21 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >So where did you place the Hutaakans? (if you did at all, that is). Just >curious- trying to get a general consensus (if possible) on placement of TR. I remember considering that area for TR, but I ruled it out. I forget exactly why--I haven't read the TR setting in a few years--but I seem to remember thinking that TR didn't really seem to fit into the wilds of northern Karameikos, and I prefered the Hutaakans there anyway. I never ended up running anything TR except for Sword and Shield (which I placed in the forests west of Mirros) but I was thinking that a small valley in southern Darokin's provinces would work better than anywhere in Karameikos. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:02:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland > (Actually, Aristotle and Socrates both - especially Plato/Socrates; > sometimes it's hard to tell where Plato ends off and Socrates begins - Definitely! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:17:29 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Herve Musseau > You are trying to apply modern ethics and moral to the fantasy setting, which > is probably why you end up with odd conclusions. Your choice of the word "modern" is an interesting one. Typically modern morality is more focused on the idea that "morals are dependant on your own point of view". This absurd notion ties in with the equally ridiculous anthem that "Reality is subjective". To all who claim to believe that reality is subjective, I challenge you to wear a blindfold and walk out onto a busy highway. You'll be fine if you just disbelieve in the reality of cars... > Thinking that justice should be just, is applying modern, and especially American, morals; I should hope you don't really believe that America has a stranglehold on the idea that justice should be just. And if prior generations believed that justice shouldn't be just...then how did the word "justice" ever become invented? > You know, you mentioning that the Alphatians don't see the flaws in their > society makes me want to make a parallel that I think will be interesting > (we'll see your reaction), with the US. In the US, the sacred constitution > allows anyone the freedom to carry arms, so that everyone and their dogs (or, > most unfortunately, their children) have guns. You are 100% incorrect. Neither dogs nor children are allowed to own guns. This has the consequence that > the US have the death rate by gunshot of a third world country. Here are some statistics for you... Washington DC and Baltimore, MD are among the American cities with the strictest gun control. Yet, they are leaders in the world for violent crime. The states that have the strictest gun control have higher violent crime rates than the states that have "liberalized" gun control laws. England has more than twice the number of "hot burglaries" than America. Hot burglaries are ones in which the homeowners are home at the time of the burglary! But the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution is not about crime any more than it is about hunting. The right to self defense is a God-given right in our founding document that recognizes the people's right to defend themselves against tyranny, both foreign and domestic. Ergo, you're just jealous. Besides, yer momma told me she digs my country more than yours.> ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right, that was kind of what I was saying...that extreme law and chaos are both tyrannies. I heard a good paraphrasing from Orson Scott Card, I think if you substituted "conservative" for "law" it would work fairly well... "The conservatives of a society are like the skeleton of the body, hard and rigid. But without the skeleton, the body is just a puddle of flesh." I thought that was a nifty comment. I'll repeat that it is a paraphrase. No doubt the original quote was put in a far better way than the above. But its the essential idea of the push and pull of the rest of the body with the bone structure that I thought was pretty enlightening. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mischa E Gelman To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis. > > As far as the D&D alignment system goes...I've come to understand law vs > > chaos as a simple argument of law versus individual freedom. Because > > freedom is good, chaos can be considered good. > > Except freedom can also be called anarchy, which everyone (hopefully) > realizes to be bad. Also, a key element of the D&D alignment system was > that chaotic chars were out for themselves, neutral chars watched out for > the group and lawful chars cared about everyone - which again shows a > clear scale where selfishness is wrong and altruism is right I think the > makers of D&D got it more or less correct - chaos and individualism is > wrong, law and order and unselfishness is right. > > - Mischa > > [U]ntold human generations had suffered poverty before, most often very > quietly. But poverty becomes much, much less tolerable when it exists in > the midst of plenty. - Yves Simon, on the Great Depression > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:32:25 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: adrian mattias > >Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 > >years without being split from within and without? > > Of course it wasn't morality that kept the Roman Empire together and then a > degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. Are you saying the Roman Empire did not degenerate from the time of its founding to its eventual demise? I hardly see that as a reasonable position from a standpoint of history. Note: My comments about Roman society did not include the morality statement, I just said "degeneration". It seems fairly obvious to me that there is a difference between people living a hard life against the backdrop of a frontier, than those who live an easy life in the middle of a city. Remove it even from the historical examples for a moment. Consider that your very survival depends on keeping the friends who will be friends, and fighting the enemies who will be enemies. Consider that you have to be tough, and you have to bring your children up to be tough. Consider that one tiny bit of compromise in the standards you've set yourself will be capitalized upon by your neighbors who will be all too happy to take you down. Now consider the difference between that and a settled, civilized country with a police force, free food, entertainment... My comment about morality was specific to my view on Alphatia. I never claimed Rome was moral. It has been said > that human morality is something that is determined internally (some > behavioural scientists believe that it is linked to genes). I find that a bit hard to swallow. Some people > have high moral standards, others have low moral standards, some people have > weird moral standards but when you are generalising by talking about the > people of an entire nation it is pretty safe to say that their morality is > no different than the people of any other nation. Anyone can have high moral standards. Its a matter of choice. But that is a completely unrelated topic. > Same situation with Rome. Despite what Plutarch and others would have us > believe, moral degenertation had nothing to do with the collapse of the > Roman Empire. Note that I never used the term "moral degeneration". I don't believe you can reasonably argue against the fact that the Romans degenerated. > If anything it was symptomatic of the decline of the Empire > which was as a result of the exhaustion of the conquest strategy by Rome. > Rome had been built on the wealth provided by centuries of conquest but > after the mid 2nd Century AD new conquests were costing the Empire more to > conquer and hold than they were gaining from the conquest. The Roman Empire > would have been able to survive had they been able to alter their economy to > take advantage of another source of growth (perhaps trade and commerce or > industrial revolution) but the inherent factors required for such a change > were not available at the time because the neolithic paradigm had not been > exhausted There were many causes of the collapse of the Roman Empire. Its funny that you seem to argue with my word "degenerate" and then go on to use the word "decline". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:04:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Aline (was Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya ??) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why the rush to see Thyatis fall? no rush ;-) So far I haven't seen any evidence of a > mortal Aline helping Thincol in the last years of his rein--she had to get > him through at least four major challenges to his rule earlier in his rein, > but she never seems to be a major influence in supporting him later. If > Eusebius does lose the empire (an idea that I don't like one bit, but > hey...) she certainly couldn't count that as assistance, even if she did > try. if she prevented the loss when osterhaus first strikes and he must wait several years say 10 or 15 before he can strike again and try to finish the job. surely then it can be counted as an assist If she were to help him and he lost the empire anyway, she would > certainly have failed on the Path of the Dynast. Thus if we were to follow > this timeline and have her assist he great grandchild from Helskir, I would > argue that that could count only as her first of three. > how about a child of eusebius who escapes to helskir and then brings an army back to reclaim his throne.especially if some of the empire hadn't fallen.that would then be her third assist. this sound possible? mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:16:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = KevinTStein) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Damn, I can't even FIND the Black Vessel. I haven't even heard of Son of Dawn. I > really wanted to read the former, since it was a Savage Coast novel. > i've only ever heard of the penhaligan and dragonlord trilogys never heard of any other mystara novels. does anybody have a complete list please. mortus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:32:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason 0'brien Subject: Re: Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Sorry if this is a dead topic, > > > Some would say the whole topic was "dead" when it re-appeared in the first > place. 8-) > in that case james you must be a necromancer considering your constant dealings with this (un)dead topic. :-) mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:34:12 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phillip Jones wrote: > > I must admit that there is no "evidence" that the two Princes are indeed > undead creatures. When it comes to two of the most prominent characters in > Glantri, I would indeed hope that they could conceal their little secrets. > Unfortuantely it doesn't stop the suspicion (and fear) of the populace they > rule. > Only those who disobey their lawful rulers need fear anything in Glantri. Perhaps some Princes take a heavier hand in such matters than others, but that is their Rad-given right. > I must disagree with you there. While it is true that if a person desires to > attain the ability to cast magic is strong enough, the a lack of a standard > of intelligence will not hold the said person back. What does hold them back > however, is their reluctance to bargain away parts of the soul to "demons". > This is what seperates most normal folk from beasts like Kol. > > On the subject of Kol, the fact that Glantri elevated Kol, a creature that > is considered by most civilised lands as no more than a foul monster, to > Prince, but expels the peace loving Erewanian elves that were loyal > Glantrian citizens, certainly speaks ill of their judgement, and calls into > question their compedance at running a country in the first place. :) > Such slanderous accusations and insults against Prince Kol only demonstrate the unenlightened and barbaric nature of realms like Rockhome and Karameikos. They cling to their primitive prejudices and thus remain in a perpetual dark age. Here in Glantri we look beyond a person's outer appearance, and elevate people based on their merit. Jean de Sauvant, senior instructor in the Great School of Magic -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:37:30 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phillip Jones wrote: > > Admittedly, these are convicted felons, but should one or two "mistakes" > force you into indentured servitude? That sort of thing goes on in Thyatis. > So while King Stefan appears to castigate slavery, he's not above using it > himself, abiet in a subtle and insidious way. > I'm stealing James's line here, but I'll say it anyway, Stefan should rename his country "Kingdom of Hypocritos" :) > I very much doubt that Alfheim and Rockhome are as pure as they appear to be > on the surface, though I haven't found anything to condemn them yet. I'll > keep looking though! :) > Hmm... they exercise prejudiced racism against innocent orcs and other goblinoids. Alfheim treats shadow elves unjustly. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:47:35 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Hule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly wrote: > > When I was still a youngin', and had just purchased X5, I marveled at the > idea of a chaotic nation. It seemed a paradox to me that there could be > such a strict, totalitarian rule, and yet at the same time be called > chaotic. I believe this is nothing more than a misunderstanding of chaotic > as defined in the dictionary, and chaotic as used by the individual D&D > writer of the time. I have no idea what alignment drow are, but their > society is very lawful. Hule, despite being classified as chaotic, is > lawful. > I tend to see Hule more as strong internally (although with intrigue and assassination being legitimate tools to advance in rank), but rather spreading chaos and discord among its enemies. I'm sure those who played in my Mystaran Birthright PBEM know what I'm talking about :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Necromancy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > in that case james you must be a necromancer considering your constant > dealings with this (un)dead topic. :-) > "A guy's gotta have a hobby." - Brannart ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:32:15 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Hule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << jdaly wrote: When I was still a youngin', and had just purchased X5, I marveled at the idea of a chaotic nation. It seemed a paradox to me that there could be such a strict, totalitarian rule, and yet at the same time be called chaotic. I believe this is nothing more than a misunderstanding of chaotic as defined in the dictionary, and chaotic as used by the individual D&D writer of the time. I have no idea what alignment drow are, but their society is very lawful. Hule, despite being classified as chaotic, is lawful. >> Actually, Hule is only as powerful as the strongest leader... that's why, when the Master is slain, the threat from Hule will pretty much disappear. It's the "Cult of Personality" thing, as each leader in Hule (petty on up) believes him or herself to be worthy of rulership; the masses follow the strongest leaders as much through strongarm tactics as through worship, or in other words, they follow not out of devotion or "lawfullness" (though some really are devout), they follow out of fear. If you remove the Master, you cut out the strongest leader, and the whole nation would dissolve in internal strife and civil war as each of the other leaders vies for supremacy. Not to mention the theocratic chaos that would ensue in a nation with a dozen+ Chaotic Immortals... that is truly Chaos. James A. Mishler Magister Mystaros Mystara Lives! Check out the excellent Official Mystara Website: http://dnd.starflung.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:42:15 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The right to self defense is a God-given right in our > founding document that recognizes the people's right to defend themselves > against tyranny, both foreign and domestic. Ergo, you're just jealous. Gah! The fact that Europeans and Americans have different mindsets shouldn't mean that we are jealous of the Americans more than that American are jealous of Europeans. And, anyway, the point Herv� was making was probably that a problem that exists in USA is that of the free access to guns...and there are not good answers to that (as the rates for hot burglary in England you presented was a proof of). I mean, on such matters it would really be hard to decide what is right or what not, but the impressions we get in Europe about the guns in USA are that Americans themselves are confused about their laws in the matter, not knowing wheter they should keep the laws (as you pointed out, self defense is a right) or not (as Herv� pointed out, unpleasant situations may and has happened with guns and private citizens involved). > > Besides, yer momma told me she digs my country more than yours.> Is this an attempt to be humorous? I am not being sarcastic- I don't understand the statement, being a stupid Italian...what does this mean in other words? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:57:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick D Sullivan Subject: Re: Aline (was Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > if she prevented the loss when osterhaus first strikes and he must wait > several years say 10 or 15 before he can strike again and try to finish the > job. surely then it can be counted as an assist If I were DMing it, I probably wouldn't allow that to count, but I might I suppose. > how about a child of eusebius who escapes to helskir and then brings an > army back to reclaim his throne.especially if some of the empire hadn't > fallen.that would then be her third assist. > this sound possible? Well, of course, she still needs to actually do something to assist (although I think you were implying that). I agree that helping one of her descendents (regardless of which branch of the family or even from somewhere other than Helskir) to reclaim the empire should certainly count as one third of her trial. My argument is with the first two. As I said, I would find it difficult to count Eusebius unless she really was totally pivotal in preventing the rest of the empire from falling as well. And I really don't think you can count Thincol as part of her trial. There is no evidence whatsoever that she travelled forward in time to help Thincol retain the empire, so I really don't think he can be counted as part of the trial. So, at best, a descendent from Helskir reclaiming lots of the Empire would count as either the first or second of three descendents she needs to help for her trial. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:02:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick D Sullivan Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich = KevinTStein) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > i've only ever heard of the penhaligan and dragonlord trilogys > never heard of any other mystara novels. > does anybody have a complete list please. Unfortunately the list is very short. Under the Dungeons and Dragons Label: The Penhaligon Trilogy. Under the Mystara label: The Dragonlord Trilogy (set mostly in Glantri, Ethengar, and other planes) and The Black Vessel (Set on the Savage Coast). Under the First Quest Label: Son of Dawn (set initially on the Isle of Dawn, returing Shadow Elf children to the Canolbarth) and Rogues to Riches (set at least at the beginning in Landfall, Norwold. i didn't finish it, so I don't know where all it goes) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Alignment (was: Alphatia andThyatis) In-Reply-To: <20000503115703.12972.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > While this was certainly the original intent of the D&D alignment system, it > later (In the Companion set on) allowed for creatures being lawful but evil, > or chaotic but good, which I think gives much greater latitude. For example, > see the description of the hydrax or the drakes. Agreed - I was a bit extreme in the initial post. I can see the idea behind a chaotic good char (vigilantes, for instance, or aberrant characters in the Palladium alignment system) and a lawful evil one (follows the rules but not the spirit of them) but overall I think the distinction is just - chaotic chars, being individualists, will shun moral codes, while lawful ones acquiese to the decisions of the whole in an attempt to be peaceful and nice. - Mischa [U]ntold human generations had suffered poverty before, most often very quietly. But poverty becomes much, much less tolerable when it exists in the midst of plenty. - Yves Simon, on the Great Depression ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:35:27 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Hutaakans (was: "In the Phantom's Wake")] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beau wrote: > >Where did the placement of their valley on the map at the official >Myst= ara site come from? = I based the redone map on the map of the valley of Hutaaka from B10: Nigh= t's Dark Terror. It's not an exact reproduction, but it was the closest I got= given the different map sizes (8 m/hex on that map; IIRC 3 m/hex on the B= 10 map) and the different hex orientation (B10 has its hexes longways, rathe= r than sideways). B10 is the first (and only, to my knowledge) source that actually details= the valley itself, though the references as to its placement go all the way b= ack to the revised Expert Set (blue box) which shows a campaign map of Karame= ikos, with the legend "Lost Valley" in the Black Peaks above Threshold. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:44:19 PDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ok, but what do you mean by the Roman Empire degenerated from the time of its founding to its eventual demise? What sort of degeneration are you talking about here? I had thought you meant moral, but if you don't mean moral degeneration what do you mean? >From: jdaly >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH >Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:32:25 -0400 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: adrian mattias > > >Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 > > >years without being split from within and without? > > > > Of course it wasn't morality that kept the Roman Empire together and >then >a > > degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. > >Are you saying the Roman Empire did not degenerate from the time of its >founding to its eventual demise? I hardly see that as a reasonable position >from a standpoint of history. Note: My comments about Roman society did >not include the morality statement, I just said "degeneration". It seems >fairly obvious to me that there is a difference between people living a >hard >life against the backdrop of a frontier, than those who live an easy life >in >the middle of a city. Remove it even from the historical examples for a >moment. Consider that your very survival depends on keeping the friends >who >will be friends, and fighting the enemies who will be enemies. Consider >that you have to be tough, and you have to bring your children up to be >tough. Consider that one tiny bit of compromise in the standards you've >set >yourself will be capitalized upon by your neighbors who will be all too >happy to take you down. Now consider the difference between that and a >settled, civilized country with a police force, free food, entertainment... > >My comment about morality was specific to my view on Alphatia. I never >claimed Rome was moral. > >It has been said > > that human morality is something that is determined internally (some > > behavioural scientists believe that it is linked to genes). > >I find that a bit hard to swallow. > >Some people > > have high moral standards, others have low moral standards, some people >have > > weird moral standards but when you are generalising by talking about the > > people of an entire nation it is pretty safe to say that their morality >is > > no different than the people of any other nation. > >Anyone can have high moral standards. Its a matter of choice. But that is >a completely unrelated topic. > > > Same situation with Rome. Despite what Plutarch and others would have >us > > believe, moral degenertation had nothing to do with the collapse of the > > Roman Empire. > >Note that I never used the term "moral degeneration". I don't believe you >can reasonably argue against the fact that the Romans degenerated. > > > If anything it was symptomatic of the decline of the Empire > > which was as a result of the exhaustion of the conquest strategy by >Rome. > > Rome had been built on the wealth provided by centuries of conquest but > > after the mid 2nd Century AD new conquests were costing the Empire more >to > > conquer and hold than they were gaining from the conquest. The Roman >Empire > > would have been able to survive had they been able to alter their >economy >to > > take advantage of another source of growth (perhaps trade and commerce >or > > industrial revolution) but the inherent factors required for such a >change > > were not available at the time because the neolithic paradigm had not >been > > exhausted > >There were many causes of the collapse of the Roman Empire. Its funny that >you seem to argue with my word "degenerate" and then go on to use the word >"decline". > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:13:46 PDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > The right to self defense is a God-given right in our > > founding document that recognizes the people's right to defend >themselves > > against tyranny, both foreign and domestic. Ergo, you're just jealous. Actually the 2nd Amendment is in fact a right to bear arms for the purpose of having a well armed militia. The purpose of having a well armed militia of course was to defend against the English, Spanish and French, not to mention the American Indians and the Mexicans. It has since been interpreted that the 2nd Amendment is in fact a right to bear arms regardless of the government's view on the matter. Its value in modern American society where the likelihood of tyranny foreign or domestic is negligible is a moot point. >Gah! The fact that Europeans and Americans have different mindsets >shouldn't mean that we are jealous of the Americans more than that >American are jealous of Europeans. After all, who would want to be jealous of the US murder rate which is the highest per capita in the developed world. For a comparison, there are now more than 12,000 deaths a year in the US from guns alone in a country with a population of 270 million. In Australia with a population of 20 million we have 57 gun deaths a year. Difference? We have a ban on all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and handguns. If anyone ever wanted to invade us, well that is what we have an army for. And before you say that a lack of guns means we must be killing each other some other way, there were 300 murders in Australia last year. Compare that to metropolitan Washington DC with 460 murders for a city with just 660,000 people. Draw your own conclusions, but the ease of gun availability in the US is no doubt partly responsible for these major differences in crime figures. >Americans themselves are confused about their laws in the matter, >not knowing wheter they should keep the laws (as you pointed out, >self defense is a right) or not (as Herv� pointed out, unpleasant >situations >may and has happened with guns and private citizens involved). I don't think you can say that Americans are confused, some want restrictive gun laws and some don't. Also, self defence is not an absolute right - in the US law system you are allowed to defend yourself using reasonable and proportional force and only in the context of an immediate threat to your safety. That means if someone invades your home with a gun you can shoot them (although statistics reveal that if you keep a gun in the house you are more likely to shoot a member of your own family with it than an intruder) in self defence and avoid a charge of murder. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:23:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > well....alignment is always subject to the general consensus that dictates > what is right and what is wrong. it is really a matter of perspectives on > morality. In RW terms much that goes on in western civilizations would get > one in serious trouble in more conservative parts of the world....such as > certain Middle Eastern nations. And then there are religious practices. Two > hundred years ago....such practices would have gotten a majority of the > populaton branded as heretics. Yep, but Good and Evil are a bit more intuitive. At the obvious end of things, murder and torture are Evil, while charity and mercy are Good. A bit more hazy is the issue of slavery and personal freedom. But the bottom line I suppose is respect for the "sanctity of life". Given the lot of the servants/slaves of Alphatia (who can be offed by any passing aristocrat who sees fit) Alphatian nobles have little respect for the lives of their peons - so saith the law, anyway. > Alphatia and Thyatis are two highly different cultures based on different > mindsets. To Alphatians there is nothing wrong with their culture. Sure there > are elements that are evil in Alphatian terms....eg Blackheart. I tend to see > the Alpher mindset as fully justifying their society. Even the "second class" > mundaners see the wisdom of the 2000+ year culture and accept the way things > are. I wasn't really thinking of Blackheart, that is so obvious as to not be worthy of comment. Everywhere on mainland Alphatia the peons are in the same boat, after all. > such is the role of Law; to keep a sense of order. Alpher Law is often > criticised but IMO it is far more realistic than any of the other Mystaran > nations. it favors the aristocrat but what RW culture's law doesn't. RW Law > is set up so that the famous and wealthy tend to fare better than those that > are not; either with public relations to a potential jury pool or by the > ability to surround their defense with better lawyers. and then there are > potential influences upon judges and court officials that may sway their > opinion. I cant think of many systems where the law so blatantly discriminates against the non elites. Even in feudal cultures, aside from the King who was nigh on God on Earth, there was at least a passing glance at justice. (The monarch is supposed to be the font of justice after all). A despotism can have lots of laws, the difference is whether a nation has justice or not. Alphatia, for the peons at least, most definitely does not. Having a better chance (better lawyers) is one thing, but having no chance at all as defined by the Law is something completely different. Laws are more than just a set of rules, they outline the morality of the society, and they aim to protect... someone. Is that someone the head of state, the nobility, or does it encompass all layers of society? Does the law bind everyone, high or low? If not King Arthur would say they are not laws at all :) > In Mystara similar tendencies exist. Aristocrats (including noble blood and > wealthy families) are held to a different legal standard than a commoner. the > difference in Alpherland is that the Alphers make no attempt to cover this > favoratism. ? Different Mystaran nations rate different things. However I can think of few that blatantly discriminate. Take, say, Darokin. All are equal under Darokinian law, despite the fact that the society is blatantly biased towards who has the most cash. However - Darokin has a spirit of fair play - their trading rep is based upon it - and therefore I imagine that the laws of Darokin protect everybody. It seems likely that perhaps Darokin even has a "happy worker is a good worker" mentality, and goes out of its way to protect the rights of its peons. Fair laws would be a necessity in Darokin anyway, as effective trade is based around it (and this point is repeatedly stressed in the Darokin gaz). Or Glantri. No fuss, no muss here, you are dragged in, brain softened, and once the truth has been found, sentenced accordingly. Political animals may have their fingers in the pie, but for apolitical crimes (the majority, I would hazard) I can't see any indication of why the law would not cover all. The discrimination between mages and nonmages is limited to the possession of noble titles, it doesnt extend to everybody. After all, the head of the copshop in Glantri is a female fighter, you cant really get more cosmopolitan than that. (And with scrupulous Ethie Prince as the chief judge, perhaps even the politically motivated crimes are judged fairly). Karameikos? Karameikos seems to be the model of enlightened feudalism, ie feudal responsibility that cuts both ways - and is enforced as such. The peasants are expected to serve the Baron, but the Baron is likewise supposed to protect those peasants living on his fief. As Stefan takes a dim view of serfdom, the peons are pretty well free - no "every wog needs a master" mentality here. And Stefan even takes complaints from the peons himself, in the classic feudal Font of Justice role. Yep, Justice as we know it is alive and well here too. > However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its flexibility. > If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly > states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. iirc hunting without a > license is offered as an example; potentially being lawful in some kingdoms, > Insolance in others, and warranting the death penalty in others. The severity > of the charge being decided by individual kingdom legal practices and the > attending judge. I also tend to think that with the truth invariably coming > to light sans ESP, that this flexibility is used to take into account > extenuating circumstances and what really happened. Conversely, familiy > connections could influence the charges being lessened to allot a less severe > penalty. Flexibility in this case means that the aristo can do whatever he wants. Flexibility is probably true in Karameikos as well (the King can do pretty well whatever he wants, in theory) but with the difference that it is regulated to some extent (a true monarchy is not a despotism, the King does have limits) and likely to be consistent - and perhaps even reflect the views of society in the truly enlightened nations. This is true flexibility. Alphatia has none of that. "Flexibility" is limited to factors like who the judge is, and whether you accidentally spilt beer over his magic carpet when you were manning the Landing Field Carpet Cleaner station. > it often comes across in this forum that the aristocrats are untouched by the > law. in truth they are not. the favortism they have in its eyes is in the > penalty stage. the alph judicial system favor innocence over guilt and has > ESP to get to the truth of the matter. with a direct insight at the truth > behind a charge, trials are rather straightforward and not dragged out by > legal motions or circumstantial evidence. either you did it or you didn't. > however there is also an underlying sense of true justice as someone that is > technically innocent of a specific act can be coincidently fined for their > role in a crime. Much talk is made of ESP. However, consider this. An aristo kills a peon. And subsequently pleads guilty. The aristo coughs up 100gp and walks away. Justice in action. And another one.. the peon addresses an aristo as "Mage X" when in fact the aforementioned aristo is in fact a Transmuter, and dislikes being likened to the common Mage scum (generalists - pah!). ESPs are duly deployed - the peon was unwitting, but then the aristo here is generally pissed off that he has been inaccurately labelled. Peon gets 10 lashes (at least). Justice in action. I doubt Sherlane of Karameikos could get away with whipping his peons if they mispronounced his title - not if it was a regular thing, enshrined in the law. Before too long the peons would be petitioning their King, and something would (theoretically) be done. Whether it happens or not in practice is really irrelevant. At least Karameikos has a system that at least attempts to deliver Justice, the Alpher Peon has no legal recourse at all to unfair treatment. > < in the first place, which tells you something about the civic mentality of > the place - and as I already said, corruption is the Thyatian problem (as a > result of WotI).>> > > actually canon sources beyond those written by Aaron Allston cite the > Thyatian corruption as a key attribute. corruption is also given as the > motivation for so many Thys leaving the empire to travel to other parts of > Brun and set up their Thy derived minorities there (Darokin, Glantri, Wendar, > Kara, etc.). > I suggest you reread what I said. At least Thyatis gave out bread in the first place to the poor of the city. I find it highly unlikely that the Alpher government would give a damn - unless the aggressive begging became a problem, in which case the scum would be herded out (by the benign) or turned into zombies and used as trendy furniture (by the not so benign). > << The difference is that Thyatis may be corrupt, but at least it has a sound > baseline. Alphatia doesn't even have that.>> > > i am not sure. there is a strange rationality in alphatian social > structure....a sense of "order amid the chaos". actually the society is > probably the best means to maintain a sense of order in a rather chaotic land > where there are so many near omnipotent mages. Not for the peons. They are just scum, treated with the same dignity and respect as sheep or cattle. They are subhuman in aristo eyes - their lives are worth no more than a handful of gold. > Alperland is by no means perfect. however i do think that the social system > there is well suited for its populace. with its simple chaotic and > individualist nature it also a highly complex and multifacetted setting in > Mystara. imo that aspect breeds more adventure potential than a typical > "cookie cutter" rpg kingdom based on King Arthur's Camelot where everything > is black and white. The Alpher society is indeed well suited to the mages living there. But for the peons, it must be truly hell on earth. No rights, no hopes. They are dung, useful only as "cheap labour" (as it says in DoE), subject to being killed at the whim of their masters. They have little or no personal liberty, and even the slightest infraction is punished with a swift whipping (or, as the aristos doubtless call it, a gentle stroke with the wand of discipline). >the only counter given to this is the taxation of > these slaves on these assessed values which coincidently (not intentionally) > balances out the tendency to overinflate slave values. Why is that exactly? Coincidence? Uh huh. Elsewhere we find things like "can legally kill any slave, for any reason or none", "no censure", and "a slaves life is usually one of heartbreaking labour from youth till death, few are permitted to learn to read, few ever hold a coin in their lives". Given the magnificent Alphatian military to emerge from the revelation that they arent armed with bagpipes and daggers, the incredible backtrack on the logical conclusions of the above on the Alpher legal system is astounding. > and anyway....i am intrigued at the idea that just because the Alph law does > favor them, that people have the visual image of alph aristocrats walking > down the streets dispatching mundaners and slaves with one hand and doling > out fine money with the other. imo such unwarranted displays of aggression > are totally out of character with the alpher racial mindset. now i could > understand seeing a similar scenario in certain occupied barbarian > lands....afterall to the alphs they are only barbarians. :-) plus the > tendency for the occupying mages to cause the natives to rise up and oust > them also bear this out. I reckon Alphatia could well be like South Vietnam. Rich nobles, scum in the streets, laws made up on the fly. As for the mindset, remember the suspected VC shot by the police chief on TV? The difference is in Alphatia at least he would get the benefit of an ESP spell (and remember folks, an ESP spell is only as reliable as the mage casting it - an ESPing wiz is effectively just another witness.) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:37:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Derek Adam Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] In-Reply-To: <04d201bfb539$3ccd15e0$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Patrick Sullivan : > >So where did you place the Hutaakans? (if you did at > >all, that is). Just curious- trying to get a > >general consensus (if possible) on placement of > >TR. I never liked the idea that the "Lost" valley of the Hutaakans was placed on player material. I took the attitude that the placement of the valley on the map was either one of those "inaccuracies" often found on early maps, or a pseudo-arbitrary placement based on rumour rather than investigation -- kind of like Atlantis. No-one who's actually followed the directions/map has ever found it. I haven't decided where to put the Lost Valley of the Hutaakans, but I suppose somewhere in that mountain range seems reasonable ... just not exactly where it's described. That's too facile for my tastes. > I remember considering that area for TR, but I ruled > it out. I forget exactly why--I haven't read the TR > setting in a few years--but I seem to remember > thinking that TR didn't really seem to fit into the > wilds of northern Karameikos, and I prefered the > Hutaakans there anyway. I never ended up running > anything TR except for Sword and Shield (which I > placed in the forests west of Mirros) but I was > thinking that a small valley in southern Darokin's > provinces would work better than anywhere in > Karameikos. I detect irony here. The northern border of Karameikos is the same mountain range as the southern border of Darokin. Which is to say that you'd place it roughly the same place I described ... just a few dozen miles north, so it's technically in Darokin. I fail to see how that makes such a difference. Perhaps I misread you, though. Do you mean closer to the Five Shires? (I don't have any maps with me, right now.) I recall there are mountains to the north of the Shires that are full of exotic beasts, and might be suitable for such a secluded valley as Thunder Rift. Regards, Derek ----------------------------------------------------- This mail was sent through Uniserve's Web Mail at https://members.uniserve.ca/mail/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:28:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >I detect irony here. The northern border of Karameikos >is the same mountain range as the southern border of >Darokin. Which is to say that you'd place it roughly >the same place I described ... just a few dozen miles >north, so it's technically in Darokin. I fail to see >how that makes such a difference. It's more a cultural difference than anything else. Thunder Rift struck me as a decidedly un-Traladaran setting. Darokin's provinces have that isolated quasi-kingdom feel to them. Also, didn't it have a wide range of races in it? I seem to remember thinking that there was really no good place in Karameikos for a bunch of demihumans to live in close proximity. It's been so long since I read the setting that I honestly don't recall my specific reasons. >Perhaps I misread you, though. Do you mean closer to >the Five Shires? (I don't have any maps with me, right >now.) I recall there are mountains to the north of the >Shires that are full of exotic beasts, and might be >suitable for such a secluded valley as Thunder Rift. Actually, I think i ended up deciding on either somewhere near the Ylaruam/Thyatian/Rockhome borders or just north of the Shires. But since I never ran it, I didn't really make a final decision. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia and Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: adrian mattias > > > The right to self defense is a God-given right in our > > > founding document that recognizes the people's right to defend > >themselves > > > against tyranny, both foreign and domestic. Ergo, you're just jealous. > > Actually the 2nd Amendment is in fact a right to bear arms for the purpose > of having a well armed militia. The purpose of having a well armed militia > of course was to defend against the English, Spanish and French, not to > mention the American Indians and the Mexicans. It has since been > interpreted that the 2nd Amendment is in fact a right to bear arms > regardless of the government's view on the matter. Its value in modern > American society where the likelihood of tyranny foreign or domestic is > negligible is a moot point. You are very wrong. But I prefer to let George Mason do my arguing for me. Feel free to continue this offlist... JDaly "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason (during Virginia's ratification convention, 1788) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:43:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The detail you are looking for can be found in my comments about frontier societies. ----- Original Message ----- From: adrian mattias To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH > Ok, but what do you mean by the Roman Empire degenerated from the time of > its founding to its eventual demise? What sort of degeneration are you > talking about here? I had thought you meant moral, but if you don't mean > moral degeneration what do you mean? > > >From: jdaly > >Reply-To: Mystara > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatia andThyatis: a NEW APPROACH > >Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:32:25 -0400 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: adrian mattias > > > >Could they really have been degenerating over the course of 2000 > > > >years without being split from within and without? > > > > > > Of course it wasn't morality that kept the Roman Empire together and > >then > >a > > > degeneration of morality which caused it to fall apart. > > > >Are you saying the Roman Empire did not degenerate from the time of its > >founding to its eventual demise? I hardly see that as a reasonable position > >from a standpoint of history. Note: My comments about Roman society did > >not include the morality statement, I just said "degeneration". It seems > >fairly obvious to me that there is a difference between people living a > >hard > >life against the backdrop of a frontier, than those who live an easy life > >in > >the middle of a city. Remove it even from the historical examples for a > >moment. Consider that your very survival depends on keeping the friends > >who > >will be friends, and fighting the enemies who will be enemies. Consider > >that you have to be tough, and you have to bring your children up to be > >tough. Consider that one tiny bit of compromise in the standards you've > >set > >yourself will be capitalized upon by your neighbors who will be all too > >happy to take you down. Now consider the difference between that and a > >settled, civilized country with a police force, free food, entertainment... > > > >My comment about morality was specific to my view on Alphatia. I never > >claimed Rome was moral. > > > >It has been said > > > that human morality is something that is determined internally (some > > > behavioural scientists believe that it is linked to genes). > > > >I find that a bit hard to swallow. > > > >Some people > > > have high moral standards, others have low moral standards, some people > >have > > > weird moral standards but when you are generalising by talking about the > > > people of an entire nation it is pretty safe to say that their morality > >is > > > no different than the people of any other nation. > > > >Anyone can have high moral standards. Its a matter of choice. But that is > >a completely unrelated topic. > > > > > Same situation with Rome. Despite what Plutarch and others would have > >us > > > believe, moral degenertation had nothing to do with the collapse of the > > > Roman Empire. > > > >Note that I never used the term "moral degeneration". I don't believe you > >can reasonably argue against the fact that the Romans degenerated. > > > > > If anything it was symptomatic of the decline of the Empire > > > which was as a result of the exhaustion of the conquest strategy by > >Rome. > > > Rome had been built on the wealth provided by centuries of conquest but > > > after the mid 2nd Century AD new conquests were costing the Empire more > >to > > > conquer and hold than they were gaining from the conquest. The Roman > >Empire > > > would have been able to survive had they been able to alter their > >economy > >to > > > take advantage of another source of growth (perhaps trade and commerce > >or > > > industrial revolution) but the inherent factors required for such a > >change > > > were not available at the time because the neolithic paradigm had not > >been > > > exhausted > > > >There were many causes of the collapse of the Roman Empire. Its funny that > >you seem to argue with my word "degenerate" and then go on to use the word > >"decline". > > > >******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:43:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] In-Reply-To: Derek Adam's message of "Wed, 3 May 2000 17:37:50 -0700" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Derek Adam writes: > I never liked the idea that the "Lost" valley of the > Hutaakans was placed on player material. You mean the big poster map, right? I don't view that as player material... makes it too easy on them to have exact distances. I'm feebly trying to make more of a hand-drawn map in Corel Draw right now... I don't suppose anyone has something like that? (Ie, something without hexes, preferably black and white, looks good on parchment.) -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 191 days, 13 hours, 54 minutes, 26 seconds till we run away. IBM: Inadequates Becoming Millionaires ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 03:01:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And rumor mongering is to be given equal weight as fact? What curious > customs the barbarian world has. > The Hollow World was just a rumour until the discovery of the North and South Pole gates (and the World Elevator), but now its location is a well known fact! Maybe more attention should be paid to rumours... > Misinformed slander that borders on treason and crimes against the state. > I daresay a visit to the Tower of Sighs would be educational for you. > Quite possibly, after all isn't the Tower of Sighs the place where all free thinkers are thrown that disagree with the Glantrian corrupt regemes? > Racism, slander and a deliberately skewed interpretation of Glantrian > internal affairs. > Were Alphatia not wiped clean from the world as one lances a boil, I would > suggest that your remarks would be proof of your standing as a foreign agent. At least Alphatia didn't hide its corruption. Consider why Alphatia turned its attention to Glantri in the first place. Could it be that looked at Glantri and saw itself - and didn't like what it saw? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 19:16:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >You mean the big poster map, right? I don't view that as player >material... makes it too easy on them to have exact distances. I'm >feebly trying to make more of a hand-drawn map in Corel Draw right >now... I don't suppose anyone has something like that? (Ie, something >without hexes, preferably black and white, looks good on parchment.) Do you have the map from Joshuan's? I'd recommend it, even though it doesn't go into much detail. The biggest problem with it is that it uses the post-WotI timeline (only a problem for some...) with the Canolbarth as Aengmor, the Great Crater, and a little extra land for Ierendi Island. It should be easy to scan and change to pre-WotI (and probably the extra land in Ierendi wouldn't really effect much at all). Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:25:32 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Aline (was Re: [MYSTARA] Vanya) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-03 5:58:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pds3@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: << And I really don't think you can count Thincol as part of her trial. There is no evidence whatsoever that she travelled forward in time to help Thincol retain the empire, so I really don't think he can be counted as part of the trial. >> I would count Thincol for her Testimony and Task, not for her Trial, with most of her work being unpublicized adventures that got little or no notice in official sources. The birth of Thincol's first grandson in 994 AC would mark the completion of her Task. I would say that her Trial is completely in the future ("real" or "alternate"), with the first possible time for her to intervene on behalf of her descendants being the Crown War of 1016-1017 AC (hint to Mystaran Almanac editors). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:55:37 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Vanya ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-02 3:58:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jobo@EIRCOM.NET writes: << maybe aline will help eusebius to retain mainland thyatis, and osterhaus could take over hattias. that would give her two assiasts down and one to go. >> Let's see -- turning one big empire into two smaller and mutually hostile ones? I can't see how that would count as any sort of "assist". The Thyatian Empire is frankly in big trouble if the outcome of that war is anything but a complete and decisive victory by Eusebius -- and only by intervening to secure that outcome could Aline possibly "save" her descendants as part of her Trial. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:55:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Women in Game Settings & in RPGs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-03 11:15:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Well, I haven't done any polls recently, so I don't know for sure, no. Originally, at least in AD&D, there was a female strength cap, but it was excised in AD&D2E, which might say something about how people reacted to that. Or it might not. I guess TSR would have whatever poll or focus group or hostile mail they accumulated over such things that led to them deciding to make a change. >> If I read Ryan Dancey's article correctly, TSR seems to have relied more on hunches and impressions than solid feedback. Somehow I suspect that eliminating the female strength cap had far less effect than the folks at TSR were expecting in terms of attracting female gamers. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:55:34 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [repost] Mystara FAQ v7.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-03 10:19:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hmusseau@YAHOO.COM writes: << Q: But I saw in TSR's 97 preview that there would be Red Steel modules released as online exclusive. What does this mean? A: TSR has released these modules for free on its site of MPGN at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com and http://www.tsr.com. >> I believe that those URLs may be in need of updates.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:55:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-02 6:58:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Mr.Dead@BTINTERNET.COM writes: << On the subject of Kol, the fact that Glantri elevated Kol, a creature that is considered by most civilised lands as no more than a foul monster, to Prince, but expels the peace loving Erewanian elves that were loyal Glantrian citizens, certainly speaks ill of their judgement, and calls into question their compedance at running a country in the first place. :) >> Where did you get the idea that the Glantrians expelled the Erewan elves? Or that those elves were "peace loving"? It seems that all you have to do is put elves from the two Principalities together in the same room to find out just how "peaceful" both clans are. As for the nasty remarks about Prince Kol -- the Glantrians are not doing anything there that wasn't already done in the Kingdom of Limn in Alphatia. Furthermore, they bring fresh relevance to my suggested retort to anything that might be said about Glantrian treatment of dwarves. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:42:40 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Aleksei Andrievski wrote: > Such slanderous accusations and insults against Prince Kol only > demonstrate the unenlightened and barbaric nature of realms like > Rockhome and Karameikos. They cling to their primitive prejudices and > thus remain in a perpetual dark age. Here in Glantri we look beyond a > person's outer appearance, and elevate people based on their merit. > > Jean de Sauvant, senior instructor in the Great School of Magic Hear, hear! M'sieur Jean has said it rightly. And on the subject of two of the Princes being undead, it cannot be stated enough that there is no proof of this! > Phillip Jones wrote: > > > > I must admit that there is no "evidence" that the two Princes are indeed > > undead creatures. When it comes to two of the most prominent characters in > > Glantri, I would indeed hope that they could conceal their little secrets. > > Unfortuantely it doesn't stop the suspicion (and fear) of the populace they > > rule. If you would care to direct yourselves to the Rumors Section in the Paparazzi Glantri.... www.geocities.com/paparazzi_glantri (Yes! Shameless plug!) Prince Morphail is acutally Prince Morphail VII. (What? Never seen a father look like the son before?) Prince Brannart has long been dead (with other family members representing him at various times), but that has been kept a secret by the McGregors in an elaborately complex plot that only Glantrians could fully appreciate. Gaston du Lac Liaison to the Boldavians and the Klantyre Correspondent on Secret and Conspiracies Paparazzi Glantri www.geocities.com/paparazzi_glantri ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:15:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Karameikos map (was "Wake of the Phantom") In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:43 5/3/00 -0400, Alan Shutko wrote: >You mean the big poster map, right? I don't view that as player >material... makes it too easy on them to have exact distances. I'm >feebly trying to make more of a hand-drawn map in Corel Draw right >now... I don't suppose anyone has something like that? (Ie, something >without hexes, preferably black and white, looks good on parchment.) I'd echo that request; I'm trying to figure out how to do something similiar for my players. All I really want is the general shape of the country, forests, rivers, cities and who's over the border. I haven't done this in earnest yet, though -- been too busy doing some late-in-the-game development of Midwood NPCs and the nearby dungeon-to-be-crawled. If someone else doesn't have something like that, I'll likely have something in the next few weeks. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:18:34 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] [[MYSTARA] In the Phantom's Wake]] In-Reply-To: Patrick Sullivan's message of "Wed, 3 May 2000 19:16:49 -0700" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Patrick Sullivan writes: > Do you have the map from Joshuan's? Good idea, I'd forgotten I have that. I'll have to see if I can dig it up. -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 191 days, 12 hours, 16 minutes, 58 seconds till we run away. Simon said DO WHAT?? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:25:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <004f01bfb56c$e3b8d5a0$0a43063e@phillip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:01 5/4/00 +0100, Phillip Jones, an agent of Glantri's enemies, wrote: >The Hollow World was just a rumour until the discovery of the North and >South Pole gates (and the World Elevator), but now its location is a well >known fact! Maybe more attention should be paid to rumours... A staggering lack of logic. But then, the lack of value placed on education in barbarian lands -- at least, for other than those who have the singular value of being born into the right family or caste -- would explain it. Better to pity savages than condemn them for their savagery. >Quite possibly, after all isn't the Tower of Sighs the place where all free >thinkers are thrown that disagree with the Glantrian corrupt regemes? All criminals proclaim their innocence at the tops of their lungs. Only a fool or one motivated by other reasons would take them at their word. >At least Alphatia didn't hide its corruption. Consider why Alphatia turned >its attention to Glantri in the first place. Could it be that looked at >Glantri and saw itself - and didn't like what it saw? Or, more likely, the Alphatian elite saw a society very like itself, save that it was founded on egalitarian ideals and the notion that all peoples can achieve greatness and, having achieved greatness, should be allowed to share in the rewards they helped create for their nation. To Alphatia, such political ideas are terribly dangerous; what if their own slaves were to rise up against them? What if the notion that their entire society could learn magic took hold and the oppressed then thus had arms to raise against their oppressors? Far more likely than fairy tales based on supposition, slanders and racism. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:26:48 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: Karameikos map (was "Wake of the Phantom") In-Reply-To: Beau Yarbrough's message of "Wed, 3 May 2000 20:15:54 -0700" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Beau Yarbrough writes: > If someone else doesn't have something like that, I'll likely have > something in the next few weeks. I'll let you know if I come up with anything presentable, if you'll do the same! -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 191 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes, 33 seconds till we run away. If we all work together, we can totally disrupt the system. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:35:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Karameikos map In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:26 5/3/00 -0400, Alan Shutko wrote: >Beau Yarbrough writes: > >> If someone else doesn't have something like that, I'll likely have >> something in the next few weeks. > >I'll let you know if I come up with anything presentable, if you'll do >the same! At the moment, I have a small portion of the JA map up on my (still in the beginning stages) campaign site at http://www.LBY3.com/dnd/map.html But since this initial campaign takes place in Karameikos, I REALLY need to get a Karameikos map and one for the hamlet of Midwood put together. Argh. I'm much better with words than pictures ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:55:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Alternate WotI ending (was Karameikan School of Magecraft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-02 5:55:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ats@ACM.ORG writes: << But then, going without WotI also leaves you explaining precisely why Karameikos renamed themselves as a Kingdom, why Thyatis didn't slap them down like gnats, why there are all these Alphatian refugees, what the day without magic is all about.... (It gets even more fun if you also use Glantri: Kingdom of Magic!) It seems to me that if you like Alphatia but want to use the AD&D stuff, the easiest change would be to say that it didn't sink, but the rest of WotI occured as scripted. >> One interesting alternative would preserve most of WotI with one minor change: Instead of sinking Alphatia, the Doomsday Weapon would spread a deadly plague in Alphatia.that causes its victims to emit a strongly anti-magical field around themselves that (among other effects) ensures that any attempts to cure the disease fail. Under this scenario the geography would be unaltered but Alphatia would effectively be gone from the scene, except for a few ships full of Alphatian refugees fleeing from the plague -- and of course some of them are infected and create a neverending risk of spreading the plague to the rest of the world. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:55:04 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Slavery] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-02 1:29:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO writes: << Equal rights for women has always been problematic for instance. If this was true in a fantasy world, then i believe the setting would be very different from what your average fantasy world is described as ofcourse. That doesnt mean that there cant be female adventurers. But they would encounter certain reactions from NPCs. This would probably be a challenge at first. But once they are established heroes, it might be an advantage to be of the "weaker" sex.>> It has occurred to me that the variable strength limits in 1E AD&D (never used with Mystara, for a variety of good reasons) were a poorly implemented attempt to add a factor of realism to the game. I think I have a better idea of how to implement it that is actually far more consistent with most known Mystaran NPCs: Simply rule that when arranging ability scores, the highest roll for a female character cannot be allocated to strength. If you are generating ability scores on a purely random basis (say, for a female NPC) and the highest rolled score is for strength, simply switch it with the lowest rolled ability score and continue from there. This change would give female characters the same disadvantage (limited physical strength) that held them back in the real pre-modern world without weakening them overall -- and if applied under the 3E rules it would be something that they could find ways to either work around (for example, by learning feats that rely more on agility than brute strength) or through (by devoting all ability score gains to strength) as desired. << I have never understood why gaming worlds have to portray politics that the gamers agree with. If he gamers dont like an element in their own country they can try and change it. Adventure ideas here they come. And why do "good" countries have to be so incredibly good? introducing nasty stuff such as slavery would just make them less two-dimensional...IMO... >> One way to level the moral playing field would be to take what is said about slavery in different countries at face value only in regard to actual slaves, that is, people who through no fault of their own have the status of property and who can be freely bought and sold.and made to work without compensation. Very few Mystaran nations practice that form of slavery, but most have convict laborers (people reduced to the status of slaves for a finite period of time as punishment for a crime) and/or serfs (people who are required to work a certain parcel of land and who cannot legally be separated from that land). I would assume that any nation that has nobles also has serfs and that any nation whose laws and customs do not preclude it also has convict laborers. As long as they can point to some quality of the lives of the lower classes that is marginally better that of true slaves, the rulers of most Known World nations will be able to self-righteously and somewhat hypocritically condemn those nations that still practice standard chattel slavery. In a message dated 2000-05-02 9:06:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA writes: << 4. Some isolated plantation in Ierendi might actually have slaves - who knows? >> One of the islands -- Honor Island -- is explicitly described as having a population that consists of one third human spellcasters and two thirds goblin slaves. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:25:03 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Possible Thunder Rift location (was In the Phantom's Wake) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few years ago I found a perfect location for Thunder Rift: Those two forested hexes on the Larodar River south of Lake Stahl in Rockhome. Although this valley is well within the borders of Rockhome, it is clearly not desirable real estate from the point of view of the dwarves. Thus, if a few adventurous humans from Ylaruam to the southeast and a few equally adventurous elves from the southwest were at some point in the past able to brave the goblin-infested mountains to reach this valley, some of the dwarves and halflings already in Rockhome could easily join them, along with the mountain rakastat for whom the surrounding mountains would be natural terrain anyway. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alternate WotI ending (was Karameikan School ofMagecraft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One interesting alternative would preserve most of WotI with one minor > change: Instead of sinking Alphatia, the Doomsday Weapon would > spread a deadly plague in Alphatia.that causes its victims to emit a > > What a wonderfully nasty idea! Did you ever consider taking a position at the Department of Alteration Warfare at one of Mystara's prestigious institutions of higher learning? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:50:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Furthermore, they bring fresh relevance to my suggested retort to > anything that might be said about Glantrian treatment of dwarves. > Yah, but, um - I'm still confused. Are kobolds bearless, scaly dwarves, or are halflings fat, snoutless kobolds, or what? I'm looking forward to an in-depth article on the subject from the Paparazzi Glantri. Enquiring minds want to know! (I know, I know - I was supposed to say bad things about Glantri. But Glantrians are just too endearing to stay mad at. Perhaps some other time). Beau wrote: > > Far more likely than fairy tales based on supposition, slanders > and racism. > Ahh, I see you've identified the Three Pillars of Alphatian Civilization. Joke time: Question: "What do you call several hundred thousand Alphatians sunken below the ocean?" Flaemish Response: "A good start." Pro-Alphatian Designer's Response: "An excuse for them to dominate the ocean depths, too." Question: "What do you call five million Alphatians vanished into the Hollow World?" Flaemish Response: "Good riddance." Pro-Alphatian Designer's Response: "An excuse for them to dominate the Hollow World, too." Regarding Ierendi: > > One of the islands -- Honor Island -- is explicitly described as having a population that consists of one third human spellcasters and two thirds goblin slaves. << Typical WDLer nation response "Yah, but they're only goblins! That doesn't count! Ierendi is still one of the 'respectable' nations!" Joking asside, I have to admit I forgot about Honor Island's slaves. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:28:14 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: First and second uplifts: The rise of the Near-Humans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the pre-history of Mystara, the Brute-Men were the ancestors of the human and demi-human races. In their time they were the most intelligent beings, for the troglodytes had degenerated considerably from their Carnifex forebears, dragons were only beginning to evolve from the ancestral wyverns, and the cleverest of animals remained nothing more than clever animals. Of what was going on under the seas at that time, even the aquatic races have no memory. But during those millennia of pre-history, two uplift events occurred that greatly expanded the roster of intelligent races on Mystara. It is not known for certain just how each of these events occurred, whether through natural evolution, Immortal intervention, or even mere mortal magic, but the effects were profound. The first uplift resulted in intelligent animals: winter wolves, giant lynxes, giant eagles, snappers, equines, ursines, and pachydermoids. Phanatons technically fall into this category even though they did not evolve intelligence until far more recent times. More magical forms of these intelligent animals would be created by various Immortals in future years: hsiao, sphinxes, displacer beasts, blink dogs, foo dogs, and tabis, among others. Still, with their lack of hands and strictly limited magical talents, none of these races were a challenge to the Brute-Men or to the true humans who would later replace them. The rise of true humans put great pressure on the Brute-Men and the intelligent animals. The Brute-Men were ultimately unable to compete and were eventually relegated to the Hollow World -- but not before the Immortals attempted to intervene in various ways on their behalf. First, they created divisions among the humans by splitting them up into different tribes and even creating new species of demi-humans from the original human stock to compete with them. When that approach failed to slow humans down much, the Immortals next took some of the more promising intelligent animals and modified them to walk upright and have hands and a spoken language. These races, the children of the second uplift, evolved into the "Near Human" races, many of which still exist today. >From the winter wolves came the wolfen, a savage but cunning race that many humans confused with the gnolls created later by the Nithians. Indeed, humans eventually exterminated those wolfen clans that did not adopt more "civilized" manners under the leadership of refugees from the Hutaakan people created by Pflarr. The wolfen under Hutaakan leadership eventually evolved into the modern lupins who are found throughout Brun. >From the giant lynxes came the ancestral rakastas, from whom all of the modern breeds of rakasta evolved. With their colonization of Myoshima and later re-colonizations of Mystara the rakastas would eventually vie with the orcs for the distinction of being the second most populous intelligent race on Mystara. Rakastas became widespread nearly everywhere except in the regions most familiar to Mystara fans: Alphatia and the Known World. However, the events of WotI introduced inhabitants of the Known World to the rakastas as the Master's conquest of Sind and subsequent invasion of Darokin drove many rakastas east from Sind and Akesoli. Once the domestic rakastas established themselves in the cities of Darokin, the mountain rakastas who already lived in the remoter mountains of the Known World became a bit less shy about revealing their presence. Those nations of the Known World who welcomed rakastas received a small but noticeable boost to the strength of their armies. >From the giant eagle came the aarakocra who even now dominate the western part of Brun from the Arm of the Immortals to the Sylvan Realms. Contact with the Ee'aar resulted in the first Kenku, who today are found in the southern part of the Arm of the Immortals as well as throughout the continent of Skothar. Those aarakocra who contacted the elves served them as guides and scouts and accompanied them on many of their later migrations, but their racial claustrophobia drove them to avoid the forests that the elves preferred and establish nests in the nearby mountains. Those aarakocra who wandered with the elves became the faenare, who are found not only in Serraine but in the Broken Lands and in most of the mountain ranges of the Known World. The snappers, of course, gave rise to the tortles. Originally the snappers were peaceful creatures of neutral alignment, but with the rise of the tortles the remaining snappers became vicious and chaotic. To this day these two races are mutually hostile. The tortles are found everywhere from the Orc's Head Peninsula to the Atruaghin Coast -- further east they have been unable to find any places that they can lay their eggs safely. The snappers, unable to compete with the tortles in their own territories, have established nesting grounds along the east coast of the Arm of the Immortals, on various islands near the Savage Coast, and in Ierendi, Minrothad, and the Thanegioth Archipelago -- in short, any place that the snappers can swim to more easily than their tortle foes. The equines underwent a different sort of change from most other intelligent animals, as they were given a non-humanoid form -- that of the centaur. This example later led to the creation of pegataurs (an apparent elf/pegasus fusion), wemics (feline centauroids), hybsils (small deer-like centauroids), and perhaps other "centauroids" not yet observed and recorded by Mystaran explorers. The fate of the ursines is not currently known, as no intelligent bear-like creatures other than werebears have been observed in the Known World. Still, enough arcane magical texts make reference to these creatures to suggest that they should exist somewhere on Mystara. Finally, the pachydermioids became the ancestors of the pachydermions, the elephant-like humanoids who are now the second most prevalent race on Myoshima. It is not known whether any of that kind still exist on Mystara itself. Of the lizard-kin nothing more need be said at this point, as their origins and subsequent fates are clearly described in the latter parts of the Princess Ark series that deal with the Wallara and the Squamous Kingdoms of the Bayou. Similarly, the enduks and their degenerate minotaur descendants originated in historical times on the Orc's Head Peninsula, while the horrid aranea have an origin completely outside of Mystara.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:55:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Karameikos map MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit not that i have anything to do with the NSA Echelon program but everytime i see the word "map" i tend to look closely... Do you need a map of Karameikos? I have just recently remade my own and put it on my site and i just found another one (made with Campaign cartographer) which really rocks. I'll try to put it on my site by the end of the week. As for the hamlet , i gonna see what i can do for you. Just tell me what you want and i'll tell you what i can do.. Beau Yarbrough a �crit: > At 23:26 5/3/00 -0400, Alan Shutko wrote: > >Beau Yarbrough writes: > > > >> If someone else doesn't have something like that, I'll likely have > >> something in the next few weeks. > > > >I'll let you know if I come up with anything presentable, if you'll do > >the same! > > At the moment, I have a small portion of the JA map up on my (still in the > beginning stages) campaign site at http://www.LBY3.com/dnd/map.html > But since this initial campaign takes place in Karameikos, I REALLY need > to get a Karameikos map and one for the hamlet of Midwood put together. > Argh. I'm much better with words than pictures ... > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:58:19 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alternate WotI ending (was Karameikan School ofMagecraft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-04 12:34:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Did you ever consider taking a position at the Department of Alteration Warfare at one of Mystara's prestigious institutions of higher learning? >> For anyone familiar with my persona in the "Unlimited Adventures" group: I would probably be found hiding out somewhere between the Broken Lands and the Shadow Elf Territories, plotting the ultimate conquest of all of Mystara. Since the Plague let loose in WotI was a bit disappointing in its effects, the evil Kaviyd will continue plotting ways to depopulate vast regions of Mystara to make room for his orkish hordes. Meanwhile, those who are trying to estimate the upper limit of orkish arcane talent must continue revising their estimates upward with each of Kaviyd's new magical discoveries.... One added personality quirk: Kaviyd is terrified of the shadow elves and stays well away from them.... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:58:20 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Alphatia andThyatis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-02 9:55:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET writes: << When I was still a youngin', and had just purchased X5, I marveled at the idea of a chaotic nation. It seemed a paradox to me that there could be such a strict, totalitarian rule, and yet at the same time be called chaotic. I believe this is nothing more than a misunderstanding of chaotic as defined in the dictionary, and chaotic as used by the individual D&D writer of the time. I have no idea what alignment drow are, but their society is very lawful. Hule, despite being classified as chaotic, is lawful. As far as the D&D alignment system goes...I've come to understand law vs chaos as a simple argument of law versus individual freedom. Because freedom is good, chaos can be considered good. Because just and proper law can be considered good, law is good. Take that where you will. >> Actually it all depends on how firm the basis of that law is. In a chaotic [evil] nation, might makes right, and the slightest whim of the top leader becomes the law of the land until he or his successor decrees otherwise. Any nation whose laws are strictly and ruthlessly enforced but where the laws are determined arbitrarily and can change without notice is indeed quite chaotic. In a lawful nation or society, certain assumptions are made about the intent of the laws, and all laws are interpreted in accordance with those assumptions. In a lawful society, an honest citizen who understands and follows the spirit of the laws that govern that society need not fear any arbitrary arrest and punishment -- but in a chaotic society, the slightest miscalculation could potentially prove fatal. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> > One of the islands -- Honor Island -- is explicitly described as having >a population that consists of one third human spellcasters and two thirds >goblin slaves. << >Typical WDLer nation response "Yah, but they're only goblins! That doesn't >count! Ierendi is still one of the 'respectable' nations!" > >Joking asside, I have to admit I forgot about Honor Island's slaves. . . I was unsure about my recollections on Honor Island slaves (I still don't think the Gazetteer mentions them, just the Almanacs, I think). But Honor Island is full of ethnic Alphatians, so it goes to figure ;-) Couldn't resist a bit of a racist jab there :-) But seriously, Alphatians seem more accepting of goblinoids than the WDL members at least... Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 04:29:47 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Guns and Magic Comments: To: jruhlconob@sprynet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (replying on the public forum to a message that was sent to me personally) --- James Ruhland wrote: > Ok, so let's discuss this parallel you've drawn, but carry it back to > Alphatia. > > In Alphatia, all the Aristocrats are "armed" with magic. > Is the problem with the guns (magic), or with the wielder? In other words, > is it a societal problem, or are there just too many weapons around and > people need to be disarmed (de-magicked)? There is one big difference, alph kids don't have magic to kill each others or themselves (unless they can get their hands on a wand of fireballs and use it). And neither do the mundaner population, the ones that could otherwise be tempted to revolt. The weapons are in the hands of the aristocracy only, just like only the samourais can carry a katana and the best the peasants can have is forks. My comparison actually wasn't that exactly, but compare the flaw in Alphatian society (wizards are all powerful) and the flaw in US society (everybody can have a gun) and make a point that if Americans can deny this flaw and yet live on, why couldn't the Alphatians? > One can see by drawing this analogy that it might be a social problem, > which is much harder to solve, than simply a problem of teaching people > magic. Problem is with teaching people magic (or handing them guns), but > not instilling them with a sense of responsibility or other curbs on > behavior. Giving them power and freedom with few constraints. Since it wasn't the parallel I was drawing, I don't think your analogy is of much use. In both cases it's not a problem of responsibility, because in both cases if people use their weapons (guns or magic) to go on random killing frenzy, there will be consequences for them. So there is indeed a sense of responsability, ultimately, so that this rarely happens. And when it does, it doesn't change anything anyway, because the fact that a handful of people live or die don't change anything and won't threaten the society. That's not were the flaw lies. And yes, I think even the irresponsible Alphatian aristocrats have a sense of responsability, and few go about killing mundaners for the fun of it (except maybe in foreign occupied lands like Thy, as someone, maybe you, said, where there is indeed impunity and the risk is not so much to them but to the empire because they will fuel revolts). Those who do will certainly quickly come to other wizards' attention, and eventually be challenged and killed, because they are obvously insane and dangerous and must be stopped. No, I think most aristocrats go about *ignoring* mundaners, rather than bullying them; when they are forced to interact with them, they order them and don't treat them nicely but they have no reason to kill them (why make the trouble?). Actually I think the mundaners have a lot of leeway in Alphatia, because the aristocrats don't care about them and give them second thoughts. Which means, as you say James, they can do what they can get away with, and that's probably a lot since the aristocrats don't mind them. Let's see. 20% of the population can cast spell. So 1 out of 5 is an aristocrat. Since the empire is probably quite bureaucratic, 1 of the 4 mundaners probably is some sort of bureaucrat or low official or soldier (mostly commoners, some servants or slaves fulfilling the duties of their master). 1 is a tradesman or businessman or craftsman (mostly commoners, sometimes servants). The other 2 are peasants and fishermen and laborers (mostly slaves and servants, some commoners). Thus, a wizard has on average a retinue of only 2 slaves/servants only (most of which are used for tending the fields rather than personal servants, in addition). Because of the pyramid of power, it means that the low-level mages (that still go to university) don't have any servants at all and must use cantrips! Then as they grow in power they can afford a few slaves and servants, and only the very powerful mages have larges estates with a whole retinue of slaves and servants to run the household. In addition, these powerful wizards also may have commoners under their indirect control (economic control). Since the aristocrats mainly don't give a damn about what these mundaners do (except when they need them for a specific task), it means IMO that the mundaners actually run things. For once, it isn't the mages that conduct trade or craft items, but free commoners, and this is a lot of power already. Secondly, even in a wizard household, the master should generally be absent (doing reseaches, being high on zzonga, out partying, ...) and even when he's here he probably doesn't want to be bothered with insignificant things so that he's content that the house runs itself. Thus, except for the fact that they must keep the household running like good robots, the servants and slaves can do what they want, provided it's nothing that will cause the wrath of the master. Since there needs to be a hierarchy, it probably even means that some slaves or servants are in positions of power within the household, either because they are favorites or because of their personal stature and/or competence. In other words, except for the fact that 4/5th of the pop must obey and support the other fifth that does little work, they live pretty much normal lives as they are for the most part left to themselves. > Using the parallel, we can see how that has worked in American history. As > John pointed out in reference to cultural mores, there was a very different > outlook in, say, the Wild West as opposed to New York at the very same > time. Were guns unavalable or outlawed in one place, but not the other? No > - folks in both places equally had the right to firearms, but in one area > they were used and abused a lot more than in the other. > > Lets continue that parallel, and we can see that in American history there > have been times and places where gun violence has "gotten out of hand" to > say the least, followed by periods of relative quiecence. Lets start with > the Wild West - what ended "frontier justice"? Taking away guns? Or > imposition of regular law and order, which made people less likely to > conduct Alphatia-like Duels to settle disputes. Guns weren't taken away - > social attitudes changed. Then a period of relative quiet occured, until > the "Roaring 20s", where again people started shooting themselves down, > aquiring tommy guns. What changed? > Prohibition was one change. It was discovered that outlawing booze caused > more problems than it solved, and mob violence took off. The post-WWI era > was also an era of self-indulgence and disipation (they didn't call it the > "Roaring 20s" because of a lack of party atmosphere). Again, guns weren't > outlawed, but other changes occurred (ending of prohibition, entrance into > a less me-first, more we've-gotta-pull-together era, and the mafia > developing internal rules and restrictions that put a curb on mob violence, > at least for a time). > Thus another era was entered, that lasted for some time, where, again, > guns were as legal (or more) as they are now in America, but one didn't > have drive by shootings or collumbine style massacres or Oklahoma City > bombings. That did change, for the worse, in the era we're living in now. > Were guns suddenly and inexplicably legalized? Or is it social attitudes > that changed, so people see fewer reasons to restrict their behavior > (someone cuts them off on the highway, drive them off the road and shoot > them in the head - they slighted you, so disintigrate them or fireball the > bastard. After all, you can do whatever you want. No Limits.) > Ok, so in America people look at these things, but you won't find many > people who say nothing's wrong - what you find is disagreement over how to > solve the problem (and admission that there is a problem); some say it's Except most Americans don't think this is a problem in the first place; only those that have been victims of it do. > guns, and that eliminating guns from private ownership as much of Europe > has will reduce the problem to the same levels as in European countries. > Others think other causes are the main factor (you can guess which position > I take - did you know there were roughly 17,000 murders in the US last > year. . .but that around 7,000 were *not* commited with guns?) Difference There aren't just murders - add to that domestic accidents (kids finding the gun and shooting themselves or their friends accidentally). > between the US and Alphatia isn't that one has problems and the other > doesn't, but in this parallel you're trying to draw the difference is that > in one people are debating how best to reduce or eliminate the problem > (should we legalize dope, like we did with booze, and cut back on > drug-related crime and murders? Should we instil a greater sense of > responsibility into people? Should we pass some gun laws to restrict access > to deadly weapons?), while in the other (Alphatia), no one (or at least no > one who "matters") thinks there's anything wrong. > So, in Alphatia, what's the problem? magic or the attitudes of the mages? > Certainly isn't no just utopia, as someone (not me, again) argued. And I > don't go around attempting to portray it that way. Neither do I. I don't think Alphatia is an utopia, except for its aristocracy (and even then, there are always more powerful mages around that may kill you, just like in a medieval society there could be another lord more powerful than you that tried to kill you and take your lands). But I don't think it's a dreadful place either, just one working on a different paradigm (as is suitable for the alien spellcasting Alphatians). Actually I think Alphatia is a good (not in the sense of not evil) place for a fantasy world, and while we can complain that some societies aren't fantastic enough (like the classical human-like elves), at least we certainly can't say that of Alphatia. > So, why jump on me for doing something I'm not doing, but leave untouched > those who have been taking such positions? Why cast me in the role of bad > guy when it turns out that we - you and I - agree (now) more than we > disagree. Neither of us, judging by your reply, views Alphatia as a > fairytale wonderland of near-perfection, the way some seem to want to > portray it. No, no, that's true, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything you say either. Yes, I could say that some of the ideallistic views that others have I don't agree with, and I think I did in this post to some degree, but generally you don't need anyone to help you doing that ;) ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:08:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Guns and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > (replying on the public forum to a message that was sent to me personally) > Which is kind of a gauche, tactless thing to do, because if I had thought this discussion belonged on the MML - and I made it very clear that in my opinion it didn't - I'd have posted it there. Now, you're very free to discuss this topic on the MML with those who want to participate in it as long as Leroy thinks it's ok. But, next time I'd ask you to have the courtesy to respect my decision not to. If I have any response to you're replies, and I will say there are several flaws in your statement, I'll send those to you personally. But, well - I'm not sure if I will, because I'm not sure I can trust you to respect me - and I'm not your Alpher peon, that you can make decisions for. But, two things I will say: 1) "Wasn't the parallel [you] were drawing" - since when has that meant anything around here? 2) Next time you feel the desire, as you frequently do, to compare Alphatia to the United States or the European Union, remember your lecture to me about the inappropriateness using modern reasoning on a "midieval, feudal" society; if you're always asserting Alphatia is the equivilent to modern areas, then your precious will be subject to modern critiques (which, I repeat, I wasn't doing - but it is "ironic" at best, as I said, to receive that admonishment from you, of all people). So perhaps instead of tut-tutting me, you need to tut-tut yourself. I was going to point that out yesterday, but I thought the better of it. However, my mood has. . .changed. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 17:31:35 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since when has becoming a wizard meant to be an interesting, fulfilled, civilized person? Just look at the Alphers! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:57:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Ierendi/Honor Island MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was unsure about my recollections on Honor Island slaves (I still don't > think the Gazetteer mentions them, just the Almanacs, I think). > Actually, the Gaz does - p.60, "population", and once or twice in the text description of Honor Island as well. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <391197D6.6A027D3B@tin.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 17:31 05/04/2000 +0200, Caroletti wrote: >Since when has becoming a wizard meant to be an interesting, fulfilled, >civilized person? Just look at the Alphers! By that argument, when has being a human being meant one was civilized? Clearly it does not. Rather, Glantrian civilization is due to something deeper: A belief that all beings who live up to their full capabilities and who serve the nation and people well deserve to have privledges in accordance with the responsibilities they thus bear. But I understand how an egalitarian society might confuse someone from your "nation." BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:00:26 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Gladiator move nad more. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyway, this is the link that came today in my Netscape inbox, sme of you might have received it as well. It links to that cool Netscape nwespaper which has - beyond the stuff it promissed - 4 or 5 more links to the subject. I couldn't open it, hope you are mure lucky (or "luckyer?"). Well, I'll try again later. Hope you like it, friends. vini. http://info.netscape.com/fwd/mestrtn2/http://asylum.netscape.com/movies/g/gladiator/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:46:03 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Gladiator... even more. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://asylum.netscape.com/movies/g/gladiator/ Yes, yes, now it works (damn connection!). Valuable info. You go, you like. Have fun. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 12:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Mystaran Almanac: Remembering The Past MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The below is a response to something I received via private mail. I'm not going to post the message I received, but it does deal with some issues that I think it's time to air openly, hopefully once and for all. For some of you this message is going to be even stranger than some of my others, because you won't know what I'm refering to and why. For others, you'll know all too well, perhaps more than you want to. I post this here so that the people involved - meaning the MA Team, most of whom are members of the MML - can understand my perspective on some things, and also give them an oportunity to tell me either where they think I have a point and am right, or let me know where they think I'm full of [fecal matter]. In the below I'm going to be writing as if in response to one person, because that is more or less what I'm doing (since it is a message from someone that I am responding to), but others are involved, which is why I post it here, and certainly have opinions of their own on these matters. I invite you all to express them, either personally or on the list, with the same candid honesty in your opinion as I will express. Some of the rest of you, who aren't aware of these things or involved might not be interested. For you, I appologize if this wastes your time, please feel free to simply delete this message and any responses if you're uninterested. As it does deal with Mystara-related "issues", I'm posting it here, but I'm sure I'll be suitably corrected if its inappropriate. In any case, now my response: ---------- You say that things are discussed nicely in MA teams by everyone but me, and compromises are worked out smoothly in them except when I'm involved, when instead there is intransigence. That may or may not be. I know where I've been "less than perfect". I've admited as much, and I've appologized to you, and to others, for how I've treated things, and I've striven to do better (more on that below). But I've never been forgiven, obviously. And I've never once been appologized to for how *I've* been treated. Not once. People have, at times, said "ok, we'll put that behind us and work together from now on" - but never an appology, and never any change, or even attempt to change, how they handle things, or recognition that I might not be the only person at fault. To see what I mean, lets remember things as they actually happened, and not as the "Bad Porphy Myth" would have them. When I joined the MA team (gosh, how long ago was it?), with what level of compromise and cooperation was I initially greeted? I gave as good as I got, to be sure, but I had to struggle against intransigence and entrenched attitudes - not cooperative ones, every step of the way. When it came to issues under dispute, remember who it was who proposed compromises: It was me, for example, who first put forth the "Co-dominium" idea over Helskir and Dunadale (others thought Dunadale should just be transfered to NACE, period) - even those compromise proposals were initially greeted not in a spirit of cooperation and compromise, but an insistance on doing what others wanted done. I had to argue strenuously, inch by inch, till we achieved a compromise on that, and I had to scratch and claw just to achieve a "compromise" on Aegos. These are just two examples, but almost every "positive" proposal I had for Thyatis was objected to and argued against by at least one person. I'm fairly sure that doesn't happen in other groups. Indeed, I know that's not how I treated things in the times when I was involved in some of the discussions affecting NACE areas, where even if my internal reaction wasn't favorable to an idea I tended instead to put forward ideas and suggestions that I thought would be helpful improvements, not always negative (i.e. one thing that comes to mind being the discussion of improvements on submersables et al, and the "sealant" idea that was eventually used in a modified way). But I have retained the reputation as the sole disruptive influence, the one without whom there would be no problem. I'm not puzzled by that, because I know where I went wrong. But, to repeat, I've tried to improve, but I don't think I've been met half way. When there was another conflict some time back, it wasn't I who exploded into rage. Indeed, I had just proposed something that I thought might help get past confusion and misunderstanding (which was one of the factors that came up), but what I thought might be a helpfull way to smooth over something, and which I had written up with care and attention given to do my best *not* to irritate or offend the other party, was greeted with an outbreak of the biggest explosion of anger since. . .well, a long time. Yes, I got angered by that episode, too, which to me showed something about the party, especially in how, IMO, that person distorted and twisted things. I sent you the mails that provided the backround to that. I mention this not to re-air that episode, though we can if people want, but simply to point out to the degree with which efforts on my part to resolve these conflicts and misunderstandings were not greeted in the spirit with which they were intended, and instead resulted in outbursts of extreme anger and vindictiveness. Who sent a "joke" to the Armies Team, and that person then admitted to me in private that he knew I might take it the wrong way - after this same person has several times suggested that when *I* might write something others could take the wrong way I should take a step back, wait awhile, and re-phrase it or not send it at all? But I still haven't been appologized for, nor does the Armies Team (now they do I guess) even know what the heck happened and why (by the way, guys, I was waiting for dude to tell you himself, but that thing you thought might be causing a conflict was intended as a joke I guess.) You say that I should observe and learn from how things are handled in the Skothar group, to teach me compromise and cooperation. Well, members of the Skothar group are on this list - they can correct me if I'm being misleading, and one can check the mail archives of that group to see if what I'll say now is true or false. But who's been the one that's often been quickest, when a conflicting opinion has arisen, to promote compromise? When someone has said that this or that idea might not "fit", who's been the one to suggest how it might? When someone has said that there might not be room for this or that proposal, who's suggested how it can? When someone said they didn't like one of your own ideas, who was the one that pointed out that we won't all have to like everything that we put in Skothar, but we can all work together on stuff and put in things we do like? "Who Was That Masked Man?" It was yours truely, the Evil Porphy. If you don't believe me, check out the archives, see what I wrote. But I neither get appologized too, nor forgiven for past misdeeds, nor credited for being perhaps the only one of those who's been involved in these disputes that's even admitted having been in the wrong, nor credited for trying to be more cooperative and affable about things. My contributions aren't so much welcomed as grudgingly accepted much of the time, and yet if I must say so myself the contributions I made (i.e. to last year's MA) have been greeted by others almost universally positively. On the MML/Alphatia debates - are my opinions treated with any great respect by those who disagree with me? Again, you seem to imply that they are, and that I'm to blame simply for expressing opinions that aren't agreeable to them. Is that true? C'mon, people - let me know if you think it is. And you wonder why I'm often maudlin, bitter, disillusioned, and resigned about my role in the MA "family"? Resigned being a good word. I think we all need to ponder that some more. I know I've thought about that in the past (gosh, I wonder why - such fun we're all having, eh?) In the end there's always been a drawing back from such a decision (but I must admit I always wonder why when it comes to this - why do I end up sticking it out, and, what really befuddles and confuses me, why if I'm held in the "regard" that I evidently am I'm not just told not to let the door hit me in the [fundiment] on the way out.) I guess I stick it out in the hopes that eventually I'll end up with a contribution I can be proud of, and that eventually we'll get past the ill feelings that were generated when I first joined, but that never seems to happen. And I've said this before on other occassions when this kind of thing has come up, it doesn't seem like it ever will happen, but here's one more stab at getting these things out in the open and resolved. I predict: one more *failed* attempt. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:49:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Dungeon help needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, filling in more background on the first dungeon my players will be entering. I'm shamelessly stealing names from baby name Web sites (which are a real boon, IMO), but I wanted to know if the information I've gotten so far suggests any ideas to anyone. Help of any sort would be greatly appreciated. I've also ordered the AD&D Diablo II supplement "The Awakening" from Amazon.com. I dig the atmosphere of the original game, especially the stuff with the Fallen One humanoids, and I'm probably going to lift freely from that supplement for color and ideas. This dungeon, of course, is in the middle of the Radlebb Forest, within walking distance of the hamlet of Midwood. --- Fort Boldizsarovic Nicodemus dies in his sleep on the morning of the PCs' Shearing. His funeral is held that afternoon, and immediately after the boys are Sheared, a wounded adventurer (Viola Miroslava, CG thief 2) staggers into the Shady Dragon Inn, looking for the Wizard of Midwood. She has stolen the magical sword Reaver from the half-orc brigand Janek Kramoris, who in turn had stolen it during the fall of Fort Doom some years ago. Janek was using Reaver to gather a band of humanoids and conquer the Barony of Halag for his own. Pursued by his wolf-riding goblin scouts, Viola staggered into Fort Boldizsarovic during the day (when the goblins weren't active) and hid the sword there, then attempted to cover her tracks and fled. She passed out not far away, and when she came to, the goblins had indeed found that she'd been inside the fort. They spotted her, but unfortunately realized the sword was within the dungeons below. Near death, Viola finds Midwood. Her father years before had been aided by Nicodemus, and she thought for sure he could help her =85 Alas, unbeknownst to her, Viola has been hit with a poisoned arrow, and passes out soon after arriving and, unless someone thinks to check for poison, she dies without waking again. Things are more complicated than they appear at first, though: The goblins are not, in fact, working for Janek. They're agents of the Black Eagle himself, working through intermediaries. They have indeed found the sword, but couldn't help poking around inside Fort Boldizsarovic during the day, and have freed the Wyrd sealed there many years ago =85 Of course, Janek is after the sword, too. Not wanting to alert his followers to the fact that Reaver has been stolen from him, he's taken a small band of orcs and tracked Viola, and later the goblins, to the fort. They will arrive shortly after the players have recaptured the sword and dealt with the wyrd, although not necessarily in that order. The goblins ride worgs, are lead by a goblin fighter/thief (killed by the wyrd and Reaver taken from him) and use hand axes, slings and spears. Janek is a half-orc fighter. His orcs uses short bows, flails and swords. And, of course, overcoming the wyrd will be an adventure in itself, especially since the only magic item within an hour's run is Reaver itself, which the wyrd has now recaptured. The fort has a long, ugly history, going back to Thyatis' initial invasion of Traladara. At that time, the Fort Boldizsarovic was the keep of a Traladaran noble, Tesar Boldizsarovic, who opposed the invasion. When Thyatian troops killed him, his daughter Anya, deranged with grief, sought out the aid of her Callarii elf advisor, Rastaban. That was a big mistake: Rastaban was actually a shadow elf agent sent to Traladara to destabilize the clans of elves in the region. He prompted Anya Boldizsarovic to turn her back on the weak Immortals of the Church of Traldara and turn to a Chaotic Immortal, Jammadaru, whom had been stymied by her family time and again in their battles against the humanoids and whose might was well-known by them. Anya desecrated the fort's chapel and defaced the statues of the Immortals therein. Jammadaru promised to aid Anya by sending a powerful being capable of avenging her father and slaughtering the Thyatians who had killed him, but first he needed proof of her sincerity. Anya willingly sacrificed her lifelong friend, the elf maiden Alcyone on the debased altar within her home. Jammadaru kept his word, after a fashion: Alcyone rose that night, transformed into a killing machine, a wyrd, and slaughtered all of those within the castle. She was finally driven back inside the fort and killed by Callarii elves and the fortress was abandoned. Stories began to circulate that Alcyone could be seen standing in the mighty doorway of the castle at night, weeping. Rastaban's part in the proceedings was never uncovered and when a group of adventurers were casting about for a way to defeat the newly appointed Black Eagle Baron in 978, he whispered the right words into the right ears. An elvish champion was chosen by the young adventurers to be made into their "champion" by the ritual. Her name was Miaplacidus, and she was the Callarii lover of a Thyatian adventurer named Nicodemus Majoh. Rastaban had Nicodemus waylaid by Traladaran partisans as Miaplacidus was sacrificed, becoming the host for the wyrd spirit. Once again, the wyrd tore through all those present. Only Nicodemus was able to survive her onslaught, but he lost his nerve finally, and was unable to kill the being that now occupied his beloved's corpse. He sealed her in a room deep within the dungeon, and settled nearby, researching for a way to release her from the curse and making sure she never got free. Rastaban has battled Nicodemus several times over the years, neither admitting to what the root of their enmity is, and the elf has succeeded in keeping Nicodemus isolated from the elvish community, who believe him to be a dangerous hothead who got his companions slaughtered by something they called up but could not control. - There are several graves inside the courtyard of the fort where Nicodemus buried his companions. The fort's dungeon: 1) Locked room with a hanged man (skeleton, by this point) with a nearby confession explaining the original decision to summon the wyrd to drive out the Thyatians. 2) Desecrated chapel with defaced statues (heads removed and replaced with ogre skulls) and blood-stained altar. 3) Nicodemus' seal over a now-open door leading to the wyrd and the sword. The door was also sealed with Nicodemus' Locking, but the goblins were able to force the door open. 4) Rastaban's quiver full of silver-tipped arrows is still in the dungeon from his last visit to the fort, when he came to survey the dungeon and see if there was a way he could release the wyrd without it posing a danger to himself. (There wasn't.) 5) Anya's wand of magic missiles is in her quarters. 6) The wyrd has retreated into the ruined temple, where she has Reaver displayed prominently in the arms of the defaced statue of Halav. She's currently enjoying watching goblins spot the sword and be lured in to where she can destroy them at her leisure. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:19:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Ierendi/Honor Island MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Actually, the Gaz does - p.60, "population", and once or twice in the text >description of Honor Island as well. d'oh! It must be time for me to reread GAZ 4. I actually liked it the first time, maybe the second time through I'll concur with the general opinion. But since I actually like the touristy feel, I doubt it :-) patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:38:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Dungeon help needed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I'm not sure why you say that you need help--this looks to be one of the best thought-out dungeons I've seen in quite a while. I'd recommend scattering a few lowlife monsters (fungus, puddings, insects, or maybe small animals) just for variety. The only flaw that I noticed is that Viola is going to die from a poisoned arrow, then the goblins or someone with them should have poisoned arrows to use. Still, an excellent dungeon :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Ierendi/Honor Island In-Reply-To: <06d401bfb5f5$3e5d9a80$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:19 05/04/2000 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote: >>Actually, the Gaz does - p.60, "population", and once or twice in the text >>description of Honor Island as well. > >d'oh! It must be time for me to reread GAZ 4. FWIW, the Honor Island mages don't WANT you to remember them! >I actually liked it the >first time, maybe the second time through I'll concur with the general >opinion. But since I actually like the touristy feel, I doubt it :-) How do you make it work in a game? Don't the Fantasy Island and Magnum PI and general Waikiki Beach riffs bring your players up short with annoyed looks on their faces? I really like the Makai and most of the supplements, I just wish another industry was fitted over most of the islands. (Yes, I KNOW there were tourists going to Egypt as early as ancient Greek times, but I somehow doubt they had the same sort of tour groups we do today.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:50:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Dungeon help needed In-Reply-To: <06e701bfb5f8$031cd000$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:38 05/04/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not sure why you say that you need help--this looks to be one of the >best thought-out dungeons I've seen in quite a while. I'd recommend >scattering a few lowlife monsters (fungus, puddings, insects, or maybe small >animals) just for variety. The only flaw that I noticed is that Viola is >going to die from a poisoned arrow, then the goblins or someone with them >should have poisoned arrows to use. Still, an excellent dungeon :-) Thanks. It's just that it's been more than a few years since I designed my last dungeon, and I'm trying to get all the bugs out ahead of time. Hence leaving a limited supply of silvered arrows around, the wand of magic missiles (also with a severely limited supply) so that my first level player characters don't get totally run through the blender by the wyrd before the orcs put them through the blender. (And the guys who are coming to see what happened to the goblins in the NEXT adventure ...) I'm also relatively inexperienced with the setting, so I was hoping experts on Karameikos and the shadow elves would jump up and down and tell me where any holes in the plot might be. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 15:06:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Frederic Ferro Subject: Tourism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000504114153.007b8c80@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 May 2000, Beau wrote: > I really like the Makai and most of the supplements, I just > wish another industry was fitted over most of the islands. (Yes, I > KNOW there were tourists going to Egypt as early as ancient Greek > times, but I somehow doubt they had the same sort of tour groups we do > today.) I don't think they were "tourists" (except if you consider Herodotus a tourist). Merchants, settlers, pilgrims to see Zeus-Ammon or Serapis'temples, researchers in Alexandria in the Hellenistic age but not tourists. The ideology of "tourism" was created in the Victorian Age AFAIK. But then, Ierendi is a little "Steampunk" with its "ironclads". If you want to put another industry, why not trade with Serraine? Don't forget Sharon Dornhoff's wonderful concept for a Minoan Ierendi http://dnd.starflung.com/ierendi2.html It is really well-thought. ff ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 12:42:30 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > FWIW, the Honor Island mages don't WANT you to remember them! good point ;-) > How do you make it work in a game? Don't the Fantasy Island and Magnum PI >and general Waikiki Beach riffs bring your players up short with annoyed >looks on their faces? > I really like the Makai and most of the supplements, I just wish another >industry was fitted over most of the islands. (Yes, I KNOW there were >tourists going to Egypt as early as ancient Greek times, but I somehow >doubt they had the same sort of tour groups we do today.) i've held my tongue throughout the slavery and feminist threads (mostly, at least) but this ties in with them. It simply doesn't make sense that everyone seems to want to evaluate Mystara in terms of the ancient or medieval worlds. The biggest difference between Mystara and the historic RW (besides the fact that one is make-believe) is the presence/prevalence of magic in Mystara (see, that even allows people who object to the "presence" part to still agree with the "prevalence"). Life for the common person in Mystara is and should be much better than it was for RW people of ancient times and the middle ages. Are there any large areas of Mystara that haven't benefitted from the widespread availability of magic? As far as I can see, no. Even Tolkien lets more of the modern world (via industrialization in the Shires) into Middle Earth than TSR seems to let into most of its other worlds. IMO, Mystara has a more realistic influence of magic than any of the others. Magic shouldn't entirely take the place of modern technology, but neither is it reasonable to assume that anyone in Myatara would be stuck in the Dark Ages while magic is there to benefit them. It is easy, whether through dwarven technology or clerical magic, to produce adequate food supplies to feed everyone with much smaller percentages of the Mystaran population engaged in agriculture than was ever possible in the RW before this century. A high-magic world (and Mystara definitely is that) is, IMO, incompatible with a dark ages economy. This is one of my main hesitations towards the Hollow World: the stagnation inherent in its structure means that people in the HW live much harder lives than their counterparts on the outer world. I, for one, don't see Ka as the benevolent entity he's generally portrayed as simply because he's willing to put people in a museum even if their lives are much more difficult because of it. The spread of technology and magic allow OW Mystara to function, in many cases, silimarly to the world of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Just as safaris were most popular in the nineteenth century, so I think it appropriate that the well-to-do of Darokin, Sind, Glantri, Minrothad, and Thyatis should provide a great market for Ierendi's tourist industry. I've never been able to understand why everyone objects more to Ierendi than to Gaiety, Arogansa, Eadrin, and Starpoint in Alphatia. As for the tie-in with slavery and women: while I don't argue that these countries should necessarily be judged entirely by modern standards, it is utterly ridiculous to say that, since they don't have guns, they should be judged on medieval standards or earlier. There are evils (slavery, indentured servitude, sexist and racist attitudes, brutal mercantilism, extreme selfishness) to be found in all Mystaran countries, just as you can find evils in any RW country historically or today (and anyone who has seen the current issue of TIME cannot argue that evils don't exist throughout today's world if they've seen the pictures of the most recent famine victims in Ethiopia). That does not mean that adventurers should simply accept these evils as ok or that TSR should have made them more prevalent. In a world where the unarmed woman in plain clothes (like the unarmed man in plain clothes) will probably just die if you attack her but might just cast a spell and kill you, sexism should be much less prevalent. I would argue even that, with the influence of magic, women of Mystara should, overall, be treated generally similarly to women of today in the real world (or, perhaps, even in the developed world specifically). As to the arguments that women have historically been subjugated due to inferior strength, this is utterly absurd. While it has no basis in a high-magic world anyway, it also has little if any bearing in the RW. RW subjogation of women was historically rooted in their role as mothers: men were generally seen as necessary for protection during times of pregnancy or shortly thereafter. That this evolved into a thoroughly sexist establishment throughout most of the world should not be seen as evidence that the same will happen in Mystara: Mystara has the advantage of magic, bread lines, etc. that can easily allow a mother to survive without a man, just as the modern world does. IMO big tourism industries, gender (near) equality, the decline of slavery, and extensive charity are all compatible with and natural outgrowths of a high-magic world with a wide range of available technology and active divine leadership. BTW, Beau, most of this rant was not really a result of your question, but kind of the aggregate of several threads I've seen come through here recently. I hope I didn't offend anyone :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 12:45:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Tourism MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Don't forget Sharon Dornhoff's wonderful concept for a Minoan Ierendi >http://dnd.starflung.com/ierendi2.html >It is really well-thought. That's a good point. It's been a while since I looked at Sharon's Ierendi stuff, but it really is very well done if you really don't like the idea of tourism in Mystara. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:02:00 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant In-Reply-To: <071b01bfb600$e3903fc0$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:42 05/04/2000 -0700, Patrick wrote: >> FWIW, the Honor Island mages don't WANT you to remember them! >good point ;-) And now, having discussed them, we both have to be extra-careful around flamable substances for a long while ... >IMO, Mystara has a more realistic >influence of magic than any of the others. Magic shouldn't entirely take >the place of modern technology, but neither is it reasonable to assume that >anyone in Myatara would be stuck in the Dark Ages while magic is there to >benefit them. It is easy, whether through dwarven technology or clerical >magic, to produce adequate food supplies to feed everyone with much smaller >percentages of the Mystaran population engaged in agriculture than was ever >possible in the RW before this century. I see your point. And I agree, to a certain extent; Midwood's cleric doesn't go adventuring in large part because she's needed to render magical aid to travelers. Ierendi's and Glantri's flying carpet service is a bit too silly for me -- too many people would want to steal the carpets to make them a realistic business proposition, IMO -- but that's easily excised. I've mostly got a problem with the wink-wink, nudge-nudge aspects of Ierendi: "Magnum, PI" and "Fantasy Island" being dropped in, for instance. OTOH, I think the Adventurers Tournament is neat, and am slowly compiling "Dungeon" articles (like the Test of Champions series) to make my own tournament for a light-hearted afternoon some time. >Just as safaris were most popular >in the nineteenth century, so I think it appropriate that the well-to-do of >Darokin, Sind, Glantri, Minrothad, and Thyatis should provide a great market >for Ierendi's tourist industry. I can agree to that, so long as the numbers are kept down; my read of the Ierendi supplement (which I really do like, honest!) seems to imply fairly large numbers of tourists, which does not work for me; tourism is still expensive and travel to and from Ierendi is still a risky proposition. >I've never been able to understand why >everyone objects more to Ierendi than to Gaiety, Arogansa, Eadrin, and >Starpoint in Alphatia. Uh, I don't have DotE, but if it'll help, I object to them strongly. Bad, bad, bad places in Alphatia! Bad! >BTW, Beau, most of this rant was not really a result of your question, but >kind of the aggregate of several threads I've seen come through here >recently. I hope I didn't offend anyone :-) You didn't offend me; there's a big difference between vigorous debate and genuine anger directed at people. (At least, there should be.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:43:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > And now, having discussed them, we both have to be extra-careful around >flamable substances for a long while ... Now I understand why I was forced out into the cold at 3:30 a.m. last night with a fire alarm :-) > Ierendi's and Glantri's flying carpet service is a bit too silly for me -- >too many people would want to steal the carpets to make them a realistic >business proposition, IMO -- but that's easily excised. I've mostly got a >problem with the wink-wink, nudge-nudge aspects of Ierendi: "Magnum, PI" >and "Fantasy Island" being dropped in, for instance. OTOH, I think the >Adventurers Tournament is neat, and am slowly compiling "Dungeon" articles >(like the Test of Champions series) to make my own tournament for a >light-hearted afternoon some time. Okay, I can understand that. I suppose that's simply different DMing styles. I still think the most fun I ever had in a gaming session was when i ran the PCs through Blacklore Valley based almost entirely on the movie Clueless (of which the players were fans). And I think some of the most obvious joke stuff should be toned down somewhat. But I still think it's awfully easy to ignore a few of those minor points in GAZ 4 and focus instead on the vast majority of the acccessory that doesn't rely on inside jokes. > I can agree to that, so long as the numbers are kept down; my read of the >Ierendi supplement (which I really do like, honest!) seems to imply fairly >large numbers of tourists, which does not work for me; tourism is still >expensive and travel to and from Ierendi is still a risky proposition. Well, the Gazetteer indicates that the population of Ierendi Island swells by 15,000 during peak tourist season, but there's no indication what portion of these are temporary employees and what portion are actual tourists. I'd argue that there are never more than 5,000 tourists in the country at a time (many of whom bring quite a few retainers, and there are a lot of support staff). In order to make it worthwhile, the average stay is probably about 1 month, and if peak tourist season lasts 3 months, that's about 15,000 during that time. If there's another 30,000 tourists during the rest of the year, and the average tourist comes 1.5 times per year, then that means that there are, on average, 30,000 tourists per year to Ierendi. That's about one half of one percent of the pre-WotI populations of mainland Thyatis, Darokin, Sind, Minrothad, and Glantri. Throw in the Shires, various elves, Karameikos, and the Northern Reaches, and you've easily got enough rich people. Not to mention that it seems like most lower middle-class could save most of their lives for a once-in-a-lifetime vacation in Ierendi, and I think they could easily maintain their tourism industry. Ierendi should've suffered more during WotI than was indicated, but I'm sure Minrothad would help them out if necessary (the last thing the guilds want is Ierendi overrun by invaders) and Ierendi could recover pretty quickly. >>I've never been able to understand why >>everyone objects more to Ierendi than to Gaiety, Arogansa, Eadrin, and >>Starpoint in Alphatia. > > Uh, I don't have DotE, but if it'll help, I object to them strongly. Bad, >bad, bad places in Alphatia! Bad! Actually I like them, too :-) Well, all except Arogansa. But some of the people who critique Ierendi's tourism role also turn a blind eye to Alphatia's counterparts :-) And anyway, don't you have AC1010, the original Poor Wizard's Almanac & Book of Facts? If not, I would recommend it VERY highly if you're at all interested in Alphatia. It's generally easier to find and, IMO, a bit more useful than DotE. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:55:46 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant In-Reply-To: <074301bfb609$5c99afc0$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:43 05/04/2000 -0700, Patrick wrote: >Okay, I can understand that. I suppose that's simply different DMing >styles. I still think the most fun I ever had in a gaming session was when >i ran the PCs through Blacklore Valley based almost entirely on the movie >Clueless (of which the players were fans). And I think some of the most >obvious joke stuff should be toned down somewhat. But I still think it's >awfully easy to ignore a few of those minor points in GAZ 4 and focus >instead on the vast majority of the acccessory that doesn't rely on inside >jokes. Absolutely. >Well, the Gazetteer indicates that the population of Ierendi Island swells >by 15,000 during peak tourist season, but there's no indication what portion >of these are temporary employees and what portion are actual tourists. I'd >argue that there are never more than 5,000 tourists in the country at a time >(many of whom bring quite a few retainers, and there are a lot of support >staff). In order to make it worthwhile, the average stay is probably about >1 month, and if peak tourist season lasts 3 months, that's about 15,000 >during that time. If there's another 30,000 tourists during the rest of the >year, and the average tourist comes 1.5 times per year, then that means that >there are, on average, 30,000 tourists per year to Ierendi. That's about >one half of one percent of the pre-WotI populations of mainland Thyatis, >Darokin, Sind, Minrothad, and Glantri. Throw in the Shires, various elves, >Karameikos, and the Northern Reaches, and you've easily got enough rich >people. Not to mention that it seems like most lower middle-class could >save most of their lives for a once-in-a-lifetime vacation in Ierendi, and I >think they could easily maintain their tourism industry. Fair 'nough. I'm still taking "damage belts" out of my campaign, though! >Ierendi should've >suffered more during WotI than was indicated, but I'm sure Minrothad would >help them out if necessary (the last thing the guilds want is Ierendi >overrun by invaders) and Ierendi could recover pretty quickly. Dunno what happened to them during the WotI at all. I'm really glossing over that period in my campaign until it moves to Glantri. And even then, what happened to the PCs' family is more important that what happened to the nation or region. >And anyway, don't you have AC1010, the original >Poor Wizard's Almanac & Book of Facts? If not, I would recommend it VERY >highly if you're at all interested in Alphatia. It's generally easier to >find and, IMO, a bit more useful than DotE. Nope. I've got JA, which I wish had more of a real almanac feel, but I understand that some of the preceding PWA were too dry or something ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:11:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beau ha scritto: > At 17:31 05/04/2000 +0200, Caroletti wrote: > >Since when has becoming a wizard meant to be an interesting, fulfilled, > >civilized person? Just look at the Alphers! > > By that argument, when has being a human being meant one was civilized? It never has. > > Clearly it does not. Well, we agree on one point, then. > Rather, Glantrian civilization is due to something > deeper: A belief that all beings who live up to their full capabilities and > who serve the nation and people well deserve to have privledges in > accordance with the responsibilities they thus bear. It is debatable how much the Princes serve the nation and how much the nation is served by Princes, in Glantri. The philosophical concept you express is surely acceptable- but it is still to be seen how much it is applied in Glantri. By the way, although I have the fault to have expressed a concept in one sentence, so you haven't understood what I was meaning. In fact I agree with what you say here, but NOT with the fact that only becoming a wizard should entitle you of being well treated. And it is quite debatable wheter Glantrians treat in this way dwarves and halflings. But, anyway, I am not a Glantriaphobe. I still respect a nation that has fought with us against Alphatia. Simply, I do not accept some of their laws and customs, and this is perfectly in my right. > > But I understand how an egalitarian society might confuse someone from > your "nation." I hope that this comment has shown up just as the moment of rage of a Glantrian that believed to be insulted by my previous post. A thing that, as I have stated, I wasn't doing. I claim my right to express my comments on laws and customs of Glantri that I don't agree with, as you have that of pointing out the dislikes for Thyatis. But I would prefer if this debate was being conducted in a respectful and civil matter. (Hey, Beau- this stuff is all in character, heh? I am really enjoying it in this case, but if you were talking seriously let me know: English is not my 1st language, and maybe I missed a point or two!) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:14:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Fair 'nough. > I'm still taking "damage belts" out of my campaign, though! Makes sense :-) > Nope. I've got JA, which I wish had more of a real almanac feel, but I >understand that some of the preceding PWA were too dry or something ... Well, the PWAs were clearly meant for the DM's eyes only, whereas JA was primarily IC stuff that you could let players read. The PWAs, IMO, were each more useful than most of the boxed sets (HW, CoM, and Red Steel being the only exceptions IMO). And I thought they were very interesting reads, except for the armies sections, which are at least very useful as reference materials. If you're running a post-wrath campaign, I'd say the PWAs are easily worth twice their cover price. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:31:42 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > Yah, but, um - I'm still confused. Are kobolds bearless, scaly dwarves, or > are halflings fat, snoutless kobolds, or what? I'm looking forward to an > in-depth article on the subject from the Paparazzi Glantri. Enquiring minds > want to know! > According to our preliminary research, dwarves are a lesser branch of the Goblinus Goblinus family, with more extensive hair growth (especially facial hair) and a generally worse temperament. Halflings, on the other hand, you are more or less correct about; they are a minor offshoot of the Canis Minor Numerus family, which has lost its scales and tails, instead acquiring rather lush hair cover on their feet (both forelegs and hind legs). More research on these strange creatures is being conducted as we speak, sponsored by Prince Kol, who is especially interested in discovering some sort of use for the lesser relatives of his race. By the way, the above statement is made available for use by the honorable Paparazzi Glantri agency, in hopes that more and more scholars around the world can learn this information. Jean de Sauvant, Senior Instructor at the Great School of Magic -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:11:24 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <3911E76C.F81632C5@tin.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:11 05/04/2000 +0200, Caroletti wrote: >Beau ha scritto: >> Rather, Glantrian civilization is due to something >> deeper: A belief that all beings who live up to their full capabilities and >> who serve the nation and people well deserve to have privledges in >> accordance with the responsibilities they thus bear. > >It is debatable how much the Princes serve the nation and how much >the nation is served by Princes, in Glantri. One cannot attain political power in Glantri without having demonstrated a service to the nation. Ergo, the vast majority of the political elite have served the country at some point. Even if there's a minority who have not, I dare say that proportion is far smaller than it is in nations where all that matters are vulgar matters such as who has the most gold or who one's mother was. Do all the nobles serve the nation indefinitely? Perhaps not. But my limiting political power to those who had to make a significant effort on the behalf of the nation, surely most of those simply interested in power for its own sake would have studied long and hard at the Great School of Magic and gone off to conquer a barbarian territory. >In fact I agree with what you say here, but NOT with >the fact that only becoming a wizard should entitle you of being well >treated. But not all wizards have political power in Glantri. Only those who have earned it through service. >And it is quite debatable wheter Glantrians treat in this way dwarves >and halflings. Besides their famous tendency to spread disease, they have a cultural bias against the practice of magic and seek to foil that which is the birthright of all self-aware beings. I have no doubt that a dwarven wizard -- if his brethren would allow such to live -- would be able to win over the good people of Glantri in short order, so long as he was willing to endure a sufficient quarantine period. >But, anyway, I am not a Glantriaphobe. I still respect a >nation that has fought with us against Alphatia. Simply, I do not accept >some of their laws and customs, and this is perfectly in my right. Especially as you will inevitably see the merits of our system and perhaps even begin working towards the self-improvement necessary to become a part of our system. >I hope that this comment has shown up just as the moment of rage >of a Glantrian that believed to be insulted by my previous post. A >thing that, as I have stated, I wasn't doing. I claim my right to express >my comments on laws and customs of Glantri that I don't agree with, >as you have that of pointing out the dislikes for Thyatis. But I would >prefer if this debate was being conducted in a respectful and civil >matter. My apologies. You are a victim of your culture, and it is your culture that is the foe of Glantri, not any individual member of the culture. >(Hey, Beau- this stuff is all in character, heh? I am really enjoying it >in this case, but if you were talking seriously let me know: English is >not my 1st language, and maybe I missed a point or two!) (No, it's all in fun!) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > IMO, Mystara has a more realistic > influence of magic than any of the others. Magic shouldn't entirely take > the place of modern technology, but neither is it reasonable to assume that > anyone in Myatara would be stuck in the Dark Ages while magic is there to > benefit them. > I guess this depends on a couple things: First: just how many skilled spellcasters are there (by "skilled" I mean of a capability to be able to do the sorts of things you're pointing out - 1st level guys obviously won't have as much of an impact as more potent dudes can) - and this varies from campaign to campaign, and people have different visions of just how many there are. Secondly: of those spellcasters (whatever number is determined in the point above), how many are likely to be attentive to providing "better living through magic" to the average, typical Mystaran (which isn't an adventurer, remember), instead of simply using their magic for their own benifit and amusement? Remember, enchanting stuff is hard and time consuming, and a spellcasters time and spells are costly - the average person can't afford the services of even a typical mage (much less, say, a wizard who expects Alphatian-level wages). The pay charts tend to imply that the sort of widespread availability of benificial magic you suggest is well beyond the means of the typical Mystaran. Ok, so in "civilized" areas they don't grub around quite as bad as Dark Ages minions did - their lots might be more akin to that of Renaissance peasants or yeoman farmers (at least in "enlightened" areas), not serfs (except in areas where social dynamics keep that in place - or in hopeless, rustic backwaters). And definately part of your point is borne out (in most "advanced" Mystaran countries a greater portion of the population lives in urban centers than did in IRL midieval/renaissance societies except for a very few commercial areas - like Northern Italy or Flanders/Netherlands). One can imagine that, at least in some areas, there might be hedge-spells useful for preserving food or preventing insect infestations from reducing crop yields, but, again, the average Mystaran farmer isn't likely to be able to afford such services, and the average Mystaran spellcaster doesn't seem to often to spend their lives as some sort of "County Agent" (Mr Kimble) type in the local Department of Agriculture. Magical disaster relief in crises seems to be as far as things goes (and, admittedly, that would be helpful compared to IRL), except perhaps in the most organized and "public welfare" oriented of places, but even for those areas the problem would probably be lack of enough spellcasters available to do that sort of thing on a large scale. > I, for one, don't see Ka as the benevolent entity he's generally portrayed > as simply because he's willing to put people in a museum even if their lives > are much more difficult because of it. > Well, you have to remember that most of these people aren't simply abducted from having happy lives someplace, but are rather rescued from impending disaster (getting overun and wiped out as a people being the usual reason) - so the choice isn't so much between a happier life on the surface and a (moderately) grim life in the Hollow World (remember, every aspect of their culture is "preserved," supposedly, so things wouldn't be worse than they already are - they just wouldn't improve much). The choice is between living at all and extinction. > for Ierendi's tourist industry. I've never been able to understand why > everyone objects more to Ierendi than to Gaiety, Arogansa, Eadrin, and > Starpoint in Alphatia. > I think it's mostly the "hokey '80s TV show" thing more than anything. No one objects to Gaity et al, but neither do you see a lot of people waxing poetic about the Airship of Love, either. > judged on medieval standards or earlier. There are evils (slavery, > indentured servitude, sexist and racist attitudes, brutal mercantilism, > extreme selfishness) to be found in all Mystaran countries, > "To Evil! The font of all adventure oportunities!" We can decry the evils, as I do, but we also need to recognize that the bad stuff is what makes the place a enjoyable game setting in the first place. Thus the spur behind my posts, and my insistance upon negative (rather than utopianistic/panglossian) aspects of certain places that have become too "nice-seeming". You gotta keep the bad stuff, even if - ok, like "the PC party" works to fix/reform this or that aspect of their country (and they should be allowed some degree of success if they earn it. This is a game of epic fantasy, not impotent "Clerk/Drone helplessness" - one gets that in real life, one games to escape feelings of impotence and insignificance); but over-benevolizing doesn't make for a good game setting. What one instead ends up with "Nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to Adventure there" places - and we don't live in any of these places, we adventure in them. > in Ethiopia). That does not mean that adventurers should simply accept > these evils as ok or that TSR should have made them more prevalent. > I'd agree with the first half of that statement (about adventurers) and partly agree with the second part, since I know what you mean by it. But I hope I don't need to point out that if there isn't any conflict, disharmony, evils to oppose, etc. or if it all seems too easy (we're preserving a utopia against insignificant threats - but the "villians" who are attempting to "disrupt our model society" are such hopeless underdogs, then there really isn't much of a sense of danger, or accomplishment if they're defeated. "yah, we dispatched them, but if we hadn't, well the whole country was up against them anyhow, the King with all his loyal and noble warriors outnumbered them by five to one, so in the end it didn't matter one way or the other whether we succeeded, failed, or didn't even exist" - some opportunity for heroism, eh?) I do agree with you that certain attitudes TSR didn't need to make more prevalent (like the male/female thing), some places have some aspects of it (but one can still game rewardingly in those places playing a female character), others simply create an atmosphere of sexual equality and those places are just fine by me - if there are things that go wrong in those places, providing not enough sense of adventure opportunity, it isn't on account of the existance of a atmosphere of sexual equality in those societies, but other design characteristics. > does. IMO big tourism industries, gender (near) equality, the decline of > slavery, and extensive charity are all compatible with and natural > outgrowths of a high-magic world with a wide range of available technology > and active divine leadership. > I'd agree with some of that, but not with others -charity, really being the one. presence or absence of magic (or technology) itself doesn't, in and of itself, lead to a greater sense of charity. Sure, if you have more to give, you *might* be inclined to give some of it - or you might be inclined to use the resources on extravagent gizmos for your own personal use, or a mix of both. What will lead you to your choices isn't magic or technology, but your own mores as shaped by your culture's emphasis on such things. For instance, in Alphatia excess wealth and leasure leads people to create magical gizmos for their own amusement and large scale artistic displays (c.f. Myrtendal's beautification campaign), not feeding the poor and clothing the naked. A sense of what might be called "Christian charity" is absent (not to say charity only comes from Christianity, because other beliefs can certainly lead to a concern for the welfare of others - but magic isn't one of them, in and of itself). Fortunately or unfortunately, the places with the greatest concentration of magic users (Herath, Glantri, and Alphatia) tend to be depicted as places unlikely to foster a great concern for the well being of those who don't use magic - thus you're not likely to see the mages of Glantri out working in the fields on crop improvement programs, or feeding starving beggars. The idea just wouldn't occur to them in the first place - it's not part of their mindset, with few exceptions: too few to have such a widespread impact on the lives of average people. Sure, also, in Midieval places there were at times highly developed senses of charity, at least among some. In Byzantium, for instance, there were what we might call "soup kitchens", hospices for the indigent, orphanages*, and the like. (*orphanages have fallen into disrepute since Dickens, but one has to remember that at the time, circa 1000 AD, the alternative to orphanages wasn't foster care and social workers, it was slow death by exposure in the streets. Orphanages were a step up). But still, even fairly well endowed, for the era, institutions like these, as well as monastic communities specifically oriented to similar charitable endevours, didn't have a huge effect on the society as a whole - sure, it helped out some, aleviated hardship for some, but it's not as if everyone was elivated to "middle class" status. A good impulse, but like with the spellcasting example, above, not enough to do all that one might hope. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:14:03 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Glantri In-Reply-To: <3911A5EE.5E360B0D@kolumbus.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:31 05/04/2000 +0300, Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote: >By the way, the above statement is made available for use by the >honorable Paparazzi Glantri agency, in hopes that more and more scholars >around the world can learn this information. Assuming you pay for the Open Glantri License first, of course. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:25:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Ierendi/Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Uh, I don't have DotE, but if it'll help, I object to them strongly. Bad, > bad, bad places in Alphatia! Bad! > Well, with the exception of Arogansa (one of the truely "benighted" areas of Alphatia), these places (Gaity, Starpoint, Eadrin) are fairly decent, as far as Alphatian places go. And theres none of the stuff in them that you don't seem to like about Ierendi (no Magnum P.I. stuff). Ok, well, Gaity became a bit silly, but then it got some "urban renewal" in the post-WotI era, so it's not M-Disney anymore - not unless you call packs of warring Thyatian barons and their minions Disneyesque. > > You didn't offend me; there's a big difference between vigorous debate and > genuine anger directed at people. (At least, there should be.) > Hear, hear. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > By the way, the above statement is made available for use by the > honorable Paparazzi Glantri agency, in hopes that more and more scholars > around the world can learn this information. > Thank you, that clears up a lot. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:42:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: update!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have added many monsters on my site, along with the Borea trilogy ( 24 miles/hex) and Wendar in 8 miles per hex which are now available. i am currently redrawing most of my maps with my newly well oriented set of hex. If you have any preference, tell me... Many changes are to come before the summer, i'll let you know... -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 17:50:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Guns and Magic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Herve Musseau To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Guns and Magic > (replying on the public forum to a message that was sent to me personally How obnoxious of you. That makes 2 obnoxious posts from you in a week. I'm surprised at you. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:05:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Women in Game Settings & in RPGs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I recall, there were definitely complaints at the time. Real life biology aside, I don't see any reason not to remove gender differences in rp stats. People can come up with their own if they want them, and it doesn't seem like a battle that's really worth fighting. Why piss people off when its just not really that important an issue? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Knott To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Women in Game Settings & in RPGs > In a message dated 2000-05-03 11:15:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: > > << Well, I haven't done any polls recently, so I don't know for sure, no. > Originally, at least in AD&D, there was a female strength cap, but it was > excised in AD&D2E, which might say something about how people reacted to > that. Or it might not. I guess TSR would have whatever poll or focus group > or hostile mail they accumulated over such things that led to them deciding > to make a change. >> > > If I read Ryan Dancey's article correctly, TSR seems to have relied more > on hunches and impressions than solid feedback. Somehow I suspect > that eliminating the female strength cap had far less effect than the folks > at TSR were expecting in terms of attracting female gamers. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 15:53:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Darth Darknerd Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Slavery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- On Mon, 1 May 2000 16:38:20 Beau wrote: > OK, the Black Eagle dabbled in slavery, and the Iron Ring makes it one of >their main businesses. But since Karameikos doesn't allow slavery, who are >the customers? > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:40:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Dungeon help needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 May 2000 10:49:18 Beau wrote: (snip) >Fort Boldizsarovic > >Nicodemus dies in his sleep on the morning of the PCs' Shearing. > He dies already? Bummer! I kind of liked the old guy :) (snip) > >Things are more complicated than they appear at first, though: The goblins >are not, in fact, working for Janek. They're agents of the Black Eagle >himself, working through intermediaries. They have indeed found the sword, >but couldn't help poking around inside Fort Boldizsarovic during the day, >and have freed the Wyrd sealed there many years ago > Oh, great! I truly feel that you capture what I consider to be the unique 'feel' of Mystara here - plots within plots within plots, all very complex and all of it makes sense! None of that, IMO, dreadful FR-inspired 'all goblins evil allies - all elves good guys!' here. Good job! (lots of excellent stuff snipped) >When Thyatian troops killed him, his daughter Anya, deranged with grief, >sought out the aid of her Callarii elf advisor, Rastaban. That was a big >mistake: Rastaban was actually a shadow elf agent sent to Traladara to >destabilize the clans of elves in the region. He prompted Anya >Boldizsarovic to turn her back on the weak Immortals of the Church of >Traldara and turn to a Chaotic Immortal, Jammadaru, whom had been stymied >by her family time and again in their battles against the humanoids and >whose might was well-known by them. Anya desecrated the fort's chapel and >defaced the statues of the Immortals therein. Oh I see I had some influence here (thanks! Seeing what you've done with this I'm really happy to have contributed). I know you said (in another email) that you wanted Karameikos-experts to comment on this. I don't know if I'd call myself that, but Karameikos is probably the nation I (and my various groups) have campaigned the most in over the years, so I have read especially the Karameikos gaz (though I don't have it myself :( ) several times. As someone pointed out, having humanoid/goblinoid Immortals involved is unlikely because the Traladarans follow Halav, who is the sworn enemy of all humanoid monsters. Yet that is precisely why your plot makes a lot of sense IMO - because Jammudaru (and other humanoid Immortals) hate Halav so much they would jump at any chance to steal his followers and turn them against him. Because of that your plot makes perfect sense (I loved the little detail of Halav's desecrated statue - I was going to suggest something along similar lines myself when I read through this, but you beat me to it!) (snip) > >Jammadaru kept his word, after a fashion: Alcyone rose that night, >transformed into a killing machine, a wyrd, and slaughtered all of those >within the castle. She was finally driven back inside the fort and killed >by Callarii elves and the fortress was abandoned. Stories began to >circulate that Alcyone could be seen standing in the mighty doorway of the >castle at night, weeping. Very sad, but that's why this is excellent stuff. If your players don't appreciate this, let me know - I can probably find a few Alphatian curses to throw at them :) (snip) >Rastaban has battled Nicodemus several times over the years, neither >admitting to what the root of their enmity is, and the elf has succeeded in >keeping Nicodemus isolated from the elvish community, who believe him to be >a dangerous hothead who got his companions slaughtered by something they >called up but could not control. > (snip rest) I may have misread something, but the bit about Nicodemus' companions is a little unclear to me. Were these adventurers who planned to kick out the Black Eagle? I like the idea of these dead adventurers, though (as I'm sure you've guessed if you saw my list of dead NPCs a while back) - we don't see nearly enough of those, particularly when we consider those high-leveled characters running around (what did they all do to become so experienced and why haven't we heard about that and the companions they must have lost over the years?) Still, I want to congratulate for your excellent plot. This is good stuff in my book. Change the subject line for this thread - you don't need help with your dungeon, it's excellent ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:56:26 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: "TV show island" (was Ierendi/Honor Island) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-04 2:54:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: << How do you make it work in a game? Don't the Fantasy Island and Magnum PI and general Waikiki Beach riffs bring your players up short with annoyed looks on their faces? >> OTOH, for those who like having that one silly island in Ierendi, it is clear from the passage of time that Senor Coarke and his neighbor Magnus have long since moved away. From current or recent TV shows, who has moved onto that island in their place? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 20:56:25 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: Glantri MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-04 5:16:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM writes: << Besides their famous tendency to spread disease, they have a cultural bias against the practice of magic and seek to foil that which is the birthright of all self-aware beings. I have no doubt that a dwarven wizard -- if his brethren would allow such to live -- would be able to win over the good people of Glantri in short order, so long as he was willing to endure a sufficient quarantine period. >> And how many centuries long would that quarantine period be, by the way? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 02:21:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Glantri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 May 2000 20:56:25 David Knott wrote: >In a message dated 2000-05-04 5:16:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lby3@LBY3.COM >writes: > ><< Besides their famous tendency to spread disease, they have a >cultural bias > against the practice of magic and seek to foil that which is the birthright > of all self-aware beings. I have no doubt that a dwarven wizard -- if his > brethren would allow such to live -- would be able to win over the good > people of Glantri in short order, so long as he was willing to endure a > sufficient quarantine period. >> > >And how many centuries long would that quarantine period be, by the way? > Probably longer than the maximum dwarven lifespan I'd imagine... :) (Sorry, the first time this was mentioned I promised myself I wasn't going to say this, but this time I couldn't resist - mea culpa) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >I guess this depends on a couple things: > First: just how many skilled spellcasters are there (by "skilled" I mean >of a capability to be able to do the sorts of things you're pointing out - >1st level guys obviously won't have as much of an impact as more potent >dudes can) - and this varies from campaign to campaign, and people have >different visions of just how many there are. I agree with you here. I'd say most of us probably try to tone down the amount of magic in Mystara a bit from canon sources, but it remains certain that there is a LOT of magic. For example, look at Sind and Jaibul. Between them, they have a population of 650,000 (pre-WotI), 25,000 of whom are magic-users in Jaibul alone. This, to me, indicates that the overall magic-using population must be between 5 and 10% of Sind (that would be 1.25 - 6.7% outside of Jaibul), and the Jadugeryas of the rest of Sind are obligated to help everyone else. And Sind isn't even what most of us would consider a very developed place by Mystaran standards. This isn't really outside the realm of possibilities, and it shouldn't just be dismissed as Ann Dupuis going overboard, since according to Tim Beach between 5 and 15% of each Savage Barony are spellcasters and according to Aaron Allston 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards. Still, it is the clerics who will have the far greater effect on the lives of everyday peasants. While this is something that's difficult to resolve between 2nd Edition AD&D and OD&D, it still remains fairly clear that even most tiny hamlets have at least one cleric capable of casting first-level spells. > Secondly: of those spellcasters (whatever number is determined in the >point above), how many are likely to be attentive to providing "better >living through magic" to the average, typical Mystaran (which isn't an >adventurer, remember), instead of simply using their magic for their own >benifit and amusement? Again it definitely depends on where we're looking, but I'd argue that around half of Mystara's spellcasters should be engaged in the betterment of living conditions. The majority of clerics and shamans, who have most of the beneficial spells anyway, will be actively engaged within the community IMO. Add to that elves, who generally work to benefit their community at least part of the time. I'd say that the spellcasters who are generally engaged in research or selfish pursuits (primarily in Alphatia, Glantri, post-wrath Karameikos, and Herath) make up a distinct minority. > Remember, enchanting stuff is hard and time consuming, and a spellcasters ...snip... >that in place - or in hopeless, rustic backwaters). good points, and I would argue that the majority of help comes from more subtle, often low-level sources. Primarily shamans and low-level clerics providing agricultural blessings, as well as elves, druids, etc. with their weather-altering magic. > And definately part of your point is borne out (in most "advanced" ...snip... >would probably be lack of enough spellcasters available to do that sort of >thing on a large scale. I'm not sure I agree here. I would argue that the average Mystaran spellcaster spend his or her life helping in basic production. Certainly that wouldn't be true in Alphatia (where one mid-level spellcaster running a plantation on Bellissaria could get rich by providing constant magical support and emplying a relatively low number of workers compared to the massive amounts of food produced), but then again the common farming population in Hule is generally better off than on the Alphatian mainland. No, the kobold shaman probably isn't going to make survival easy for his band, but he'll make survival easier at least. >Well, you have to remember that most of these people aren't simply abducted >from having happy lives someplace, but are rather rescued from impending >disaster (getting overun and wiped out as a people being the usual reason) >- so the choice isn't so much between a happier life on the surface and a >(moderately) grim life in the Hollow World (remember, every aspect of their >culture is "preserved," supposedly, so things wouldn't be worse than they >already are - they just wouldn't improve much). The choice is between >living at all and extinction. Cultural assimilation, while it can and often is very negative, is an "impending disaster" only from the perspective of an anthropological curator like Ka. Ka could prevent a lot more suffering if he were to work to prevent cruelty rather than preserve cultures that face natural extinction. I'm not saying that saving the good parts of Nithia and as much of Alphatia as possible weren't good things, but why in the world would anyone who was really concerned about the welfare of humans "save" the Neathar from the "impending disaster" of technological progress. My argument isn't really so much with the HW Immortals' moving peoples out of harm's way, but why lock them in an eternal stagnation? >I think it's mostly the "hokey '80s TV show" thing more than anything. No >one objects to Gaity et al, but neither do you see a lot of people waxing >poetic about the Airship of Love, either. Yeah, I get that. But there seems to be more resistance to the very idea of Ierendi's tourism industry than to Alphatia's. >We can decry the evils, as I do, but we also need to recognize that the bad ...snip... >don't live in any of these places, we adventure in them. Yeah, I hope I didn't seem like I was coming out in favor of a panglossian view of Mystara. Basically I'm arguing that we needn't try to make Mystara reflect the problems of Medieval Europe (sexism, slavery, and brutality) just because they don't have gunpowder. I love Mystara the way it is, and I'm taking exception to whoever was implying that Mystara's gender equality, as it is, is simply an attempt at political correctness. I agree that a world without evils is no fun for adveturing (although i prefer my villains to look more like Hel, Eriadna, and Clan Ellerovyn than Snidely Whiplash or Ludwig von Hendriks), but I disagree that the evils that exist throughout Mystara should simply be winked at as historical morality. >I'd agree with the first half of that statement (about adventurers) and ...snip... >exist" - some opportunity for heroism, eh?) > I do agree with you that certain attitudes TSR didn't need to make more >prevalent (like the male/female thing), some places have some aspects of it >(but one can still game rewardingly in those places playing a female >character), others simply create an atmosphere of sexual equality and those >places are just fine by me - if there are things that go wrong in those >places, providing not enough sense of adventure opportunity, it isn't on >account of the existance of a atmosphere of sexual equality in those >societies, but other design characteristics. Hear, hear. I certainly hope I didn't seem to be arguing anything different. While almost all the areas I've read up on (basically everywhere canon except the 5 Shires, Alfheim, and Rockhome) have a good balance (Ulimwengu is the only major exception, although most of the good opportunities in HW Alphatia seem to have gone un-taken in the Almanacs), I really don't think we need to go around making things more sexist, etc. than they are in canon sources for the most part. >> does. IMO big tourism industries, gender (near) equality, the decline of >> slavery, and extensive charity are all compatible with and natural >> outgrowths of a high-magic world with a wide range of available >technology >> and active divine leadership. I actually agree with you, and I was unsure how I wanted to phrase that even as I was writing it. By "charity" I basically meant that Mystaran charities like bread lines and hospitals are much more realistic in Mystara than in the RW. I'm not saying that people should be more or less generous in Mystara, but, let's face it, a wandering cleric of Chardastes does a lot more good than a wondering Medieval Italian doctor who bled the sick out of the goodness of his heart. As for Alphatians spending their surplus on art and magic rather than charity, I'd say that's only partly true. Even in Arogansa there seems to be no indication that the commoners are malnourished or the commoners of Frisland suffer from exposure due to insufficient clothing. It's generally made pretty clear to Alphatian commoners that they're second-class citizens, but they're still much better off than most of the world's people before 1800 or so. I think it's more a case of efficiency than a difference in human nature. i hope that helped clarify what i was saying at least somewhat. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:03 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Creature Crucibles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks David Knott and Beau for the good answers.As you realised, I've been out for one week or so but now I'm back (as an undead, of course...). Here is my... > < with this thing at hte begining of their names, but I don't quite > understand. >> And here are their cool answers: > > They are supplements that describe special settings designed for > "monster" player characters, along with rules for running characters > of appropriate monster races. Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > I'm very fond of the setting half of "Top Ballista" and the other > crucibles, but I'm not inclined to let players run monster characters in my > campaigns. And here, more discussion, of course: What is godd and what is bad, inyour opinion? I think it can add to the game, but it can... well, how can I say that in English? Can... damn it! Here goes na example: "I want ot play a psionic bard!", said a player of mine... "Nope!", said I. "So I want to be a Gith, whichever of them!". "No way!", I said. I think this gives a good idea. It can unbalance the game, frustate other players, take the control of the game out of the DM's hands. These are my narrow-view "good and bad" analysis. What else do you think? Why not a wak monster? An orc player or something like that? Thanks for your good opinions. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:08 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: It's show time!!! WotC will love it. I hope. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said in other msg that we DO have a good market here for games. Yes, for D&D! A huge country, lots of people learning RPG, and other newer systems getting their own space. Good. THAT PISSES ME OF! I like D&D, played English "Colossal Adventure" on the MSX, a version of the 1st adventure ever, "Colossal Cave", which featured a dungeon, axe-throwing-Dwarves, treasures... RPG. And I am now playing it on the PC, on a CPC emulator... yes, I am a fanatic. Since 1988. I love RPG! OI love D&D! Period. Well, I'll be the DM in a game the will be a "Show-game". Only experienced players in a game that is supposed to make newbies choose... make a guess. ;-) Yes, always there is a large number of boys and girls, teenagers mostly, that are trying to learn, understand and choose. Let them choose D&D. This is the 2nd bigger event in the World. Yes, yes, GenCon is even bigeer... ;-) I ask, my good friends: do you have experience DMing in a such an event? Which level should it be? What should I do? And avoid doing? Who should be invited? What type of adventure (scouting, looting, fetching, hack'n'slash, Coliseum...)? I know the guys I am invinting, it willl not be that "Who am I going to play with?" situation, as I reckon this will be a very delicate situation. If a fail, I deserve pain from the D&D gods (Dave Arneson, who BTW has been in this event in 1995 or 1996, can't remember). Hints, guy, I need your help. Hail to D&D!!! vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:11 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Gladiators of the Real World. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Friday. The _tournment_ is back! Not dull single fights anymore: 8 fighters. You want to get the belt and the $$$$? Win three matches, that's all! Japan. Royce Gracie will be there. Oh, man, I waited 5 looooooooong years. Yes, that IS a good hook. I have already done a tournment. 2-on-2, 1-on-1. Unarmed, armed. Spells allowed or not... the combinations are infinite. I _let_ players choose a lot of these things, including the beasts! Of course a filtered, but. They had a lot of fun! Sollux side by side with a PC fighting a Bhut and a NPC master-of-arms... Beastmen... yes, it rocked! It does work when playes actively participate. Do you agree? Why not? Back to the real world, it will be May 5th, 10 p.m., Brasilia (our Capital City) time, which is GMT -3 (1 a.m. England, 6 p.m. Pacific, I think). The best guys ever... no dead chickens, it's an anthology, everyone levels 20+ !!! Unarmed combat, 1-on-1. And no spells... I hope. ;-) Two of the best wrestlers the USA has ever seen: Coleman and Kerr, old friends. Medal colectors. Have fun, feel the atmosphere and... start drafting adventures. Hooks! Adenture ideas! Nice talking to you, guys. vini magus. P.S.: "RW" is Real World... but you use "IIRC" all the time. I tried hard for days, but couldn't find out what that means. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:24 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: "Mystaran stores". MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please note that the date Wizards said they would end selling cheap 2nd ed. stuff is coming... please help me, I would LOVE to get Mystara material, I dream of it. More msg below. vini wrote: > At 23:08 4/24/00 -0300, you wrote: > >Man, I don't have all this material you guys have! I just have > >"Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure" and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Is > >there any way I can get other stuff? I only know abot other kingdoms via > >the Net and the very little they say about them in Karameikos. Help! ... and marvelous people have answered: Beau Yarbrough wrote: > WotC is having a clearance sale at their online store, and are selling > Ethengar, Shadow Elves, Ylaruam (GREAT book!), Atruaghin, Undersea > (Creature Crucible), Serraine (Creature Crucible), the Valley of the Wolves > (Creature Crucible), the Northern Realms (whatever they're called ... > Vestland, et cetera), Ierendi ... > A lot of these go for more, used, on Ebay (a friend was going to bid $12 > for Ylaruam on Ebay before discovering that WotC was selling it for $9). > This is allegedly a pre-3E warehouse clearance, so ... > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ And vini - myself - ask: * Which of these are cool? * Anything else - even not Mystaran- worth buying? * Beyond the Gazeteers and Mystaran products (they are divided insections in the page where the offers are, good page), is there anything else related to Mystara? * Ah, cheap places, good... does anyone have info on these online stores? I know nothing about them, so you can tell me even about the obvious ones. Which one I should AVOID? The Stalker wrote: > There are places where you can find these things. The most notable would be Shawn Stanley's (official!) Mystara web-site at . Here you can find background on the various nations and I believe he even has very good list of online stores. I've had good experience buying stuff from myself (Wrath of the Immortals and Dawn of the Emperors, and I just got The Emirates of Ylaruam the other day...). > > - The Stalker of Alphatia Yes, that answes a lot of questions: --> I've been to his site, it's just GREAT. If you have not gone there yet... you're losing your time. --> Online stores, Mr. Stanley? I'll check them out. Anyway, if someone still wants to give 1 or 2 names, thanks. --> Was cyberdungeon a good experience? And Stalker also wrote, about Brau's msg: > Yes, except they won't deal with people outside the US. I've been trying talk to WOTC about this for over a month, but so far they keep refusing to answer my mails... :( > > - An annoyed Stalker of Alphatia... => Why don't they sell us? Hum... maybe it's not worth. But I'd like to. And there are 3 more brazilians in this list, as an example. They wrote me offline. Cool people. We DO have a market here, Wizards! Hugs, people. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:37 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: Mystaran Campaigns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, I was not fair foretting you, Mr. Gelman, when I thanked Beau and David fora answering this one. Rading your previous msg - the underwater campaign - It seems that you have the number 3 (mentioned below), uh? ;-) Please join the discussion. You seem to be fond of mixing races and allowing players use unusual races. Why? Hugs, vini. Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > vini wrote: > > Stupid q #2: what is creature crucible? A series, ther is a lot of books > > with this thing at hte begining of their names, but I don't quite > > understand. > It is a continuation of the Gazetteer line, aimed at the non-human, > non-demihuman races of the world. The products are pretty high quality, > though the artwork and some of the dialogue in PC2 lends it a silly feel > to many readers. There are four products in the set: > > PC1 - this deals with the faerie races and forest critters - hsiao, > pixies, sprites, trents, brownies, sidhe, etc. > PC2 - this deals with the flying city of Serraine and aerial races - > harpies, sphinx, tabi, pegataur and a couple others like gremlins and > gnomes > PC3 - this deals with the world of Undersea and sea critters - sea giants, > kna, nixies, aquatic elves, kopru, tritons, mermen and mermaids, etc. > PC4 - this deals with lycanthropes > > - Mischa ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:34 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Lankhmar. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, people, what kind of setting is that? Medieval, cold, hot, eastern...? And, as said Mischa, it is in NO WAY related to Mystara? Again... thanks, guys. vini. > In a message dated 2000-04-24 11:22:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vinimagus@STIVIP.COM.BR writes: > > << More stupid questios: what is Lankhmar? Its prices are good. I've seen > the covers, seem to be another setting. Or is ti part of other one? Is > it good? New? I admit I've been out for the last 3 years, because of > work & school. Sorry if this is too obvious.>> David Knott wrote: > It is the setting of Fritz Leiber's "Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser" series, > used by TSR/WotC as a result of a licensing agreement with the > author's estate. Both of the main characters are rogues, with Fafhrd > being a big barbarian type and the Grey Mouser a former wizard's > apprentice. BEAU wrote: > They're based on a series of novels and short stories starring Fahrd (sp?) > and the Grey Mouser. Mischa wrote: > It's based on novels by Fritz Leiber and not related to Mystara. No idea > as to the quality. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I agree with you here. I'd say most of us probably try to tone down the amount of magic in Mystara a bit from canon sources, but it remains certain that there is a LOT of magic. << That's true. >> This isn't really outside the realm of possibilities, and it shouldn't just be dismissed as Ann Dupuis going overboard, since according to Tim Beach between 5 and 15% of each Savage Barony are spellcasters and according to Aaron Allston 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards. << While that's true, other canon stuff gives completely different impressions (take Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, which on p.19 says that "while other locales boast only one wizard in every 5,000 people, an estimated one in 200 Glantrians is a wizard." Of course, by "wizard" perhaps instead of just any old mage they mean one of some repute - 9th level or higher, say, but it's hard to say). One in five thousand would mean there are less than a hundred in all of Karameikos, though. >> Still, it is the clerics who will have the far greater effect on the lives of everyday peasants. While this is something that's difficult to resolve between 2nd Edition AD&D and OD&D, it still remains fairly clear that even most tiny hamlets have at least one cleric capable of casting first-level spells. << That's true. Healing, for instance, would certainly cut down on the people who die from otherwise treatable wounds and the infections that tend to follow if they aren't properly attended to. >>I'd say that the spellcasters who are generally engaged in research or selfish pursuits (primarily in Alphatia, Glantri, post-wrath Karameikos, and Herath) make up a distinct minority. << I suppose that's possible (otoh, in defence of Karameikos, a place I'm not noted for defending, the "atmosphere" of the place would tend to imply that if there's any area where spellcasters would attend to the needs of the "undisciplined common people", it would be Karameikos - except, I suppose, to the degree to which Alphatian wizards instill their mindset. But since the KSoM is lead by arguably one of the more "public spirited" of Alphatians, Terari/Tylion, that might not be a problem). >> good points, and I would argue that the majority of help comes from more subtle, often low-level sources. Primarily shamans and low-level clerics providing agricultural blessings, as well as elves, druids, etc. with their weather-altering magic. << True, but at what level would such a cleric have to be to perform a blessing on the land that might affect a good portion of it? IIRC, there's a spell in the Milenia Gaz that deals with that sort of thing, but it's a 3rd level spell and only affects one acre at a time (see below, though - this spell will become important in a moment). >> Cultural assimilation, while it can and often is very negative, is an "impending disaster" only from the perspective of an anthropological curator like Ka. << Yes, but remember that for the most part Ka moves very few people (saving every Alphatian possible was an exception to the norm) - it's certainly arguable that there'd be a lot fewer decendents of those who are moved if they weren't - in other words, many people who wouldn't live at all. As for those of the "transfered" civilizations that are left behind, again the vast majority, they become Sind or the Milenian City States in Davania or the Ylari (ne Nithians), &tc. Also, really, it isn't as if they can't better themselves (but the SoP is one of those things that is really hard to tell, I guess, what exactly it allows and doesn't allow. I did write up a "use and interpretation of the SoP" thing, which can be found somewhere on Stan's site if anyone's interested). For example, that spell in the Milenia gaz, Fertilize, didn't exist when the Milenians were on the surface (or at least they didn't know it then), it was researched ("invented") about 100 years ago. I guess that's not considered a profound enough "advancement" to violate the SoP, but it arguably affects (or benifits) far more people than "inventing" Fireball would - or at least it does if what you suggest about most spellcasters (that they do spend their time in what might be considered "community-oriented trades") is true. After all, just ask the local peasant: would you rather have your crops burned by fireballs today, or fertilized? Or ask the guy in town who ends up buying part of the pesant's crop. >> "impending disaster" of technological progress. My argument isn't really so much with the HW Immortals' moving peoples out of harm's way, but why lock them in an eternal stagnation? << Well, here's where the answer has to be more of an OOC one than an IC one. The IC one that the immortals like having a museum to amuse themselves isn't so unrealistic, though (I mean, take a look at, say, Greek myths, and I think you'll see that it isn't such a stretch to think Immortals would behave in that fashion). But they wanted to create a "Lost World" atmosphere, and the "SoP" mechanism was invented to explain the lack of progress, and also because during that era of gaming (and probably still now) there was a great "panic/fear" that "Oh, no! PCs will do things they shouldn't, like show people how to invent nuclear missiles out of spit and bailing wire if we don't stop them somehow!" - thus similar rules from that era that say "true gunpowder doesn't work in this universe, only a magical concoction known as Smokepowder works, which is an alchemical, enchanted substance, so you can't make it out of animal dung and stuff found lying around in the ground." >> Yeah, I get that. But there seems to be more resistance to the very idea of Ierendi's tourism industry than to Alphatia's. << Yah, well. . . > I agree that a world without evils is no fun for adveturing (although i prefer my villains to look more like Hel, Eriadna, and Clan Ellerovyn than Snidely Whiplash or Ludwig von Hendriks), but I disagree that the evils that exist throughout Mystara should simply be winked at as historical morality. << True. Funny you should mention ol' Snidely - my personal favorite example of the wrong sort of "mono-dimensional, cartoon-cut out villian", too. >> most of the good opportunities in HW Alphatia seem to have gone un-taken in the Almanacs << A deplorable situation, but one I'm powerless to alter, for better or worse. >> I'm not saying that people should be more or less generous in Mystara, but, let's face it, a wandering cleric of Chardastes does a lot more good than a wondering Medieval Italian doctor who bled the sick out of the goodness of his heart. << That's a good point, I should have thought of that myself. >> Even in Arogansa there seems to be no indication that the commoners are malnourished or the commoners of Frisland suffer from exposure due to insufficient clothing. << Well, Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.15, under "food and drink", last paragraph, says "Slaves and servants eat what they are allotted, which usually isn't much." No, that doesn't mean they're starving in endemic famines - but it doesn't suggest they're as well fed as halflings, either. >> It's generally made pretty clear to Alphatian commoners that they're second-class citizens, but they're still much better off than most of the world's people before 1800 or so. << Might be, but it's hard to tell. P.19 under "Economy" says that Alphatia has a "strong" economy based on two factors, one of which is "cheap labor in agriculture (slaves and servants)" - of course what constitutes "cheap labor" is open to interpretation: "cheap labor" in France in 1000 AD vs 1250 AD vs 1800 AD would be defined very differently. But it doesn't suggest abundant wealth among the minions, especially when combined with the definitions of Slave and Servant castes found on p.16. Under Slaves it says "The slave's life is usually one of heartbreaking, backbreaking labor from youth until death. . .few ever hold a coin in their lives. . ." Under Servants it says "Servants work for another, sometimes for nothing more than room and board, sometimes with a salary in addition." If parts are working for nothing more than room and board, that seems to imply the wages for most of the rest can't be all that high (of course, in that phrase, *most* of the rest is an operative modifier - the same section under Servants continues on to say ". . .some may be well-educated and quite well-off. . ." - the distinction is probably that the latter know some exceptional skill that allows them to demand and receive higher wages, but that would be exceptional. Regular agricultural workers and laborers, which would be the vast majority even in a "19th century" sort of Mystara, do not fall into that category). This returns to an issue I should probably address, a point brought up by someone else who said, regarding Thyatian slaves: > anyway...a slave's bid to buy their freedom is a longshot at best. > though their freedom may only amount to the cost of a week's > stay at an inn, it might as well be a like trying to buy the inn for them. > This is an interesting point, but the same could be said in comparison, too. For example, some make much of the fact that an Alphatian Servant can rise in status if they buy a farm or start a business. To do that, they have to accumulate money. Low chance of that happening - probably much less likely than in the above example regarding Thyatians, because you litterally have to have the money to buy the inn, not just a week's stay, and have as much chance of accumulating the same amount of savings as a Thyatian slave. I would tend to imagine that "tenant farmer" type "company store" debt is very common, too (after all, nothing stands in the way of such abuses, and we know what happens when nothing stands in the way of abuse) - so even changing masters is probably hard ("oh, sure, you can switch masters, but first you have to work off the debt you owe to your current master." That song that goes "Another day older and deeper in debt. . .I owe my soul to the company store" would probably receive knowing nods in Alphatia). Now, I don't say such things are impossible - but, remember, some few IRL Roman slaves were well-educated (like some few Alphatian Servants), and some were even "quite well-off" (as some few Alphatian Servants are) - and that Roman analogy would apply to Thyatis. So perhaps the references in the Thyatian Gaz aren't as unimaginable as the poster quoted above implies - indeed, certainly no more odd than imagining an Alphatian Servant rising to Freeman status (I always point out that the definitions used for Thyatian Slaves and Alphatian Servants are almost point-by-point identical, the only significant difference being that the Alphatian Servant has some lattitude to chose masters - which can be a significant difference, but can also *not* be, as I alluded to above. And the sort of capricious, cruel master that people would want to leave is also the very sort who would trap Servants in that sort of situation. And situations like that happen not uncommonly IRL, sweatshops and the like, especially in areas where law and morality doesn't prevent it. So it's hard to argue that Servants could avoid such situations.) Lets discuss the status of Freemen: And, so, what happens if you manage to scrape yourself up to Freemanstatus, against all odds? You stay there as long as you ". . .make enough money to maintain [your place] of business and register [your] business with the imperium each year." If it is determined that you're not, then your business will be stripped away and you'll find yourself at Servant status again (*joy*). So, not only do you have to be better at what you're doing than any Aristocrat who owns a similar business, but you'd better stay suitably fauning and servile to your betters, and not get uppity, or they'll insure that you don't meet the requirements for keeping your business, and they'll strip it away and send you back to the gutter where scum belong anyhow. Of course, the Aristos will all be very nice about it. . ."such a shame......but such people simply *must* learn to know their place, you know. We can't have the wrong sort setting a bad example, or soon they'll all think they can be impudent and insolent. Anyhow, power and wealth belongs in the hands of the right sorts of people". As for Gentry. . .well, no need to go there, really. We know what the answer to that is: the only people likely to be Gentry are successful adventurers and Mariella (it is often claimed that Alphatia is some kind of near meritocracy. There stands a meritocrat?). Indeed, the Gentry category was fairly clearly created so that non-Aristocrat characters would be at all playable in Alphatia; otherwise we can guess just how common the sort of mundainer who works at a normal trade and has accumulated 10,000gp to put and keep in a bank is likely to be. Ok, so some mundane Alphatians do rise to prominence. I'm not saying it isn't or can't be done. but the above illustrates some of the great obsticales to doing so, and they can be sent back to square one in the blink of an eye if you make one misstep years of accomplishment reversed if you offend the wrong person. Merit plays only a secondary role, IMO, not a primary one as people sometimes suggest. Sure, you need great (almost superhuman) talents to advance - but that's because of the great, and un-meritocratic ("don't be insolent. don't compete against an Aristocrat"), roadblocks that stand in your way. Good book to recomend that, IMO, and at least for me, was very helpful in seeing into what the mindset of some Mystaran places might be like (there were some analogies I found very. . .eerie. I won't say which they are, and which places I found comparable with which Mystaran examples, I'll let folks draw their own conclusions). The book was "Into the Darkness" by Harry Turtledove, set in a world where "high magic" exists in liew of technology, and there's a large global war that forms the backdrop. Anyhow, some of the attitudes, and their consiquences, that form much of the plot impetus in "Into the Darkness" have resonance with Mystaran countries. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:46:18 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: David Knott Subject: Re: "Mystaran stores". MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-05 12:24:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vinimagus@STIVIP.COM.BR writes: << And vini - myself - ask: * Which of these are cool? >> The items for sale are the least cool of the Mystara items -- the coolest ones sold out quickly, of course. Still -- even the least cool Mystara items are pretty cool in my book. I plan to see what I can pick up from among the few items I don't have. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Igor Subject: Gladiator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw an advance screening of Gladiator last night. In general, I think it's worth seeing. It also struck me as reasonably Thyatian. About 940-960 AC, I'd say. When you see it, image the first sequence occuring in Traladara. igor. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:11:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Strange character types (was "Creature Crucibles") In-Reply-To: <39124C2F.757B81E3@stivip.com.br> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:21 5/5/00 -0300, vini wrote: >What is godd and what is bad, inyour opinion? Well, the Night Howlers and Top Ballista settings are detailed, unusual and full of good stuff, even if you just use them as settings (and NPCs) for your regular characters to meet. >I think it can add to the game, but it can... well, how can I say that >in English? Can... damn it! Here goes na example: "I want ot play a >psionic bard!", said a player of mine... "Nope!", said I. "So I want to >be a Gith, whichever of them!". "No way!", I said. I think this gives a >good idea. It can unbalance the game, frustate other players, take the >control of the game out of the DM's hands. > >These are my narrow-view "good and bad" analysis. What else do you >think? Why not a wak monster? An orc player or something like that? I'm not opposed to odd character types; in the Glantri campaign I'm going to run this fall, I expect there will be humanoid characters and all sorts of odd magic-user variants. But character types shouldn't dictate what sort of game EVERYONE plays. The same reason I don't like people trying to introduce AD&D Chronomancer or psioncist characters is the same reason a PC sphinx character is a bad idea: The whole game has to be rewritten and reconsidered for one player's character, despite what everyone else (DM and other players) may want. Now, if people sit down at the beginning and say they want to play a Top Ballista game, that's different ... of course, introducing the setting initially as a suprise is a lot more fun ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:47:24 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Strange character types (was "Creature Crucibles") MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >>What is godd and what is bad, inyour opinion? > > Well, the Night Howlers and Top Ballista settings are detailed, unusual >and full of good stuff, even if you just use them as settings (and NPCs) >for your regular characters to meet. I'd say that Secrets of the Sea People is also good even just for the Undersea setting, but it's pretty much useless if you don't ever have underwater adventures. Night Howlers is especially good if you want to run a campaign in Glantri (a good setting--I think Mark of Amber is another excellent product). >>I think it can add to the game, but it can... well, how can I say that >>in English? Can... damn it! Here goes na example: "I want ot play a >>psionic bard!", said a player of mine... "Nope!", said I. "So I want to >>be a Gith, whichever of them!". "No way!", I said. I think this gives a >>good idea. It can unbalance the game, frustate other players, take the >>control of the game out of the DM's hands. >> >>These are my narrow-view "good and bad" analysis. What else do you >>think? Why not a wak monster? An orc player or something like that? I agree with Beau that, unless you're careful to integrate the monster-character, it can really de-rail the game. All the Creature Crucibles do a good job of balancing the different monsters. For example, if you want a PC sphinx, you'll have to start with huge experience penalties, be much weaker than a normal sphinx, and take ages to go up in level. Have you downloaded the free Savage Coast accessories? These are products made by TSR and released free on-line. You can get copies several places, the handies being Shawn's official Mystara homepage at dnd.starflung.com . I would recommend that you check them out--they give rules for playing a lot of different monster races and they can give you a fairly good idea of what to expect from the Creature Crucibles. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Note--I'm breaking my reply to this message in 3, just 'cause it now covers a LOT of different topics :-) >While that's true, other canon stuff gives completely different impressions >(take Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, which on p.19 says that "while other >locales boast only one wizard in every 5,000 people, an estimated one in >200 Glantrians is a wizard." Of course, by "wizard" perhaps instead of just >any old mage they mean one of some repute - 9th level or higher, say, but Since that's the only indication (AFAIK) of numbers that low, I'd say it should definitely be interpreted as referring to mages of 9th level or higher. After all, the only other AD&D source that indicates levels of spellcasting (again AFAIK), the Savage Baronies box, indicates that the only Savage Barony that could even approach the scarcity of 1 mage in 200 is Narvaez, where magic-users are outlawed and hunted. >it's hard to say). One in five thousand would mean there are less than a >hundred in all of Karameikos, though. Not to mention that it would be 10 magic-users for Jaibul, as opposed to 25,000. Actually, I'm not sure I even like the "1 in 5,000" rule for wizards of 9th+ level, although that certainly seems like the best solution if you don't want to just chuck that reference :-) A bit more evidence: I completely overlooked it in my previous post, but CoM also says that, in Sind, 5% of the rural population and 15% of the urban population are Jadugeryas. Also, "an exceptionally high percentage of them [Jadugeryas] have considerable talent for spellcasting." Thus, I'd say Sind and Jaibul have at least a combined 10% of their population as magic-users. Rishiyas (the clerical caste) make up approximately the same portions of the urban and rural populations as the jadugeryas. >That's true. Healing, for instance, would certainly cut down on the people >who die from otherwise treatable wounds and the infections that tend to >follow if they aren't properly attended to. There's certainly that, but also the fact that clerics and shamans will generally be more amenable to helping their people rather than locking themselves in an ivory tower, IMO at least. >I suppose that's possible (otoh, in defence of Karameikos, a place I'm not >noted for defending, the "atmosphere" of the place would tend to imply that >if there's any area where spellcasters would attend to the needs of the >"undisciplined common people", it would be Karameikos - except, I suppose, >to the degree to which Alphatian wizards instill their mindset. But since >the KSoM is lead by arguably one of the more "public spirited" of >Alphatians, Terari/Tylion, that might not be a problem). True, Terari might be able to make a difference. And I'd say that most of Karameikos' clerics are pretty "good" too. I guess it depends primarily on whether the School of Magecraft is dedicated to churning out low-level mages or if the School is comparable to Glantri's or Alphatia's colleges, used primarily for continuing education and research. And don't forget the Alfheimers--didn't some of them go to work at the School?--they're not really known for their selflessness either :-) >True, but at what level would such a cleric have to be to perform a >blessing on the land that might affect a good portion of it? IIRC, there's >a spell in the Milenia Gaz that deals with that sort of thing, but it's a >3rd level spell and only affects one acre at a time (see below, though - >this spell will become important in a moment). I've never read the Milenia accessory, so I don't know. CoM (an awfully useful accessory for arguing the prevalence and importance of spellcasters) describes "The Rishiya Blessing," a modified /bless/ spell, which is second level and encourages plant growth with an area of 1 acre and a duration of six months. IMO spells like this should be fairly common. >True. Funny you should mention ol' Snidely - my personal favorite example >of the wrong sort of "mono-dimensional, cartoon-cut out villian", too. Which, of course, is not to say that he's not hilarious :-) Just not amenable to quality role-playing. >>> most of the good opportunities in HW Alphatia seem to have gone un-taken >in the Almanacs << >A deplorable situation, but one I'm powerless to alter, for better or >worse. Well, I'm not sure it's as bad as all that. I think i really need to start paying more attention to all the HW almanac e-mails that I just archive and ignore due to lack of time. If Eriadna's really had a change of heart, she, Eldrethila, and Idon II ought to relieve Detteria Scarback of her oppressive rule in Arogansa :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 03:41:52 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: vini magus's humble campaign. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 0 The Stalker wrote: vini wrote > >My campaign: > > > >Characters start each ina diferent part of Karameikos, they are on > >vacation, visiting their relatives, friends etc. There's a mental call. > >They will do 1 or 2 days of solo-adventuring, which is nice to improve > >character developement, knowledge of places, aquirement of new quirks > >etc. > > > >Following the calls, they find, east od Rifflian, deep in the middle of > >the forest, the place. There is nothing. Concentrating, they find ther > >is a shimmering wall, but is ti really there? Concetrating and focusing > >even more, they manage to see it and believe in it; it is not easy. > > > >They search, find a gate, ask to enter, it opne, they enter a beautiful > >place, full of beautiful vegetation - different from the brown and diing > >veg out there - and find a guardian who tells them he is weak, his > >source of power - and of all the land - has been stolen and there is no > >time. > > > >Let's go faster, sorry, folks: he tells them they got to find an > >Artifact, it's a GRAAL (Grail): yes, how creative! > Don't sell yourself short! If Francis Ford Coppola can say "Steal from the best" with pride, then so can you :) > For example, I've received a lot of very positive feedback on my 'Calamity Star' bit, though I thought it was a woefully unoriginal copy of the doomsday-prophecies of Nostradamus. Yet people like it, and it's driving my players *insane* with paranoia (ah, the good life of a DM...) ;) Hum... so taking ideas is not that bad? What/where is the thin line the divides copy from "getting an idea or two"? Thanks for the support. > > And they should go > >separate to fnd it faster. New solos. See that the first ones are not > >necessary, as the can start the campaign together, no problem. > > > >The guy who went North/NE, coming close to Threshold - AKA Adventure > >Land... hehehe -, feels a powerful item, feels he/she is in the right > >direction. He goes there to check. The guardian tells this to the other > >people, who have already been searching, as well, in Mirros, Krakatos, > >Luln... and they all hush - or are teleported, your call - to Threshold. > >They find the first item there. Yes, the fidt, it is NOT a grail! It's a > >dagger, and a virgin (a low-level cleric, a maid, a servant of Allena) > >would be sacrificed in the Nithian Zigurath under the city. > > > >Well, I think this is getting to long and I'll be flamed. If you want > >more, please contact me at vini@engineer.com, I don't to send to the > >group a 20 KB text msg. > > > >Well, my players liked it. I hope you like it, too. > >They are levels 8-10, now. They started level 6. > I wish you'd been a bit clearer on this idea. What you could do if you want to please us all is make a plot outline and post it here as an adventure idea - it's sounds interesting IMO. > > - The Stalker of Alphatia OKAY. You're a nice man. Thanks for the interest. Let's see: they met a lovely teenager, a high level one (where does a 17-years girl learn casting all those *cool* spells? So early!). She is a AIR Elementalist. Baby face, imagine a good-looking - and looking like good-hearted, even naive - girl. Yes. Imagine. Now, imagine Britney Spears. Well, this part of the adventure has happened some 4 years ago, so I did not inspire me in her, but I can describe quite well using her. I _always_ like giving people time to build their own pictures and impressions before giving them photos, drawings, maps etc. After winning and saving the virgin who was to be sacrificed, they realise the item the Elementalist was about to use is NOT the Grail!!! Oh, BTW, she had a good fighter by her side using boots of the north, so he had no trouble walking fast thorugh the snowy ground after the Ice Storm. They get this item, a book. After that, they search, do side plot here and there, but and up east of Kelvin, north of the forest at the basis of a Volcano (have I invented it? You can put it where you want; is there a volcano in Karameikos?). Hellhounds come and things get messy and... hot! They climb, find a Dwarven city inside the mountain/volcano. A Sollux lives there part of his time. He travels the world looking for his worst foe, Efreeti. He goes to places with highest probability of finding them. They star going down, meet Fire HydraFire Fundamentals. NOW I want Stalker to defend me! It IS predictable! Hit me! They find out the tunnels are goind own and it's getting hotter. They meet a chamber, 2 narrow passages, like stone bridges to the center, where a tower lies from the high ceiling tol the bottom... molten lava! Uh! There is a base down there, you can stay alive, even enter the tower. Ranger makes a coooooool party with his Frostband (which he never even knew about; yes, he is a INT 8 good-hearted man, member of the Cult of Halav, owner of The Sword of Halav; when his sword turned BLUE, he could not understand it, but yes, the Fire-Kin Elementals died quick!). They kill the elementalist, who manages to kill our honest elven fighter mage with a Lavabolt (from the Great Net Prayer Book, GREAT BOOK, indeed! Excellent job!). The item, a scepter, again, is not a grail (duh!). They find a letter frm a Glantrian gentleman refering to an apprendice... they're off to a place midway to Koreszgy Keep. They search the place the letter explained, look, search harder. There is an entrance: to the GROUND. Ground, earth... you know. At this time, I do not have any doubt they've got the "Elemental gang" idea. This was planned, now the combats can be harder, as they now what thye are about to fight against. But they did NOT know which of the 2 remaning would come first. What do you think? It would be better give them the hint? If so, the combats could be even harder, for them can prepare OPTMALY. Going down, they find the Earth-related beasts. no, no, the beasts find them: they pull the players below ground. MCMystara describes the way they mimc common ground and pull people. Or not? Have I dreamt? They fight Earth minions. and defeat the Earth elementalist. His wife is there, says he was taking orders, nothing more, and she is _really_ angry. Someone for the future? They find a Diploma from a Glantri school of Magic (nice parchment that comes with the Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure boxed set). Well... what now? They have no idea onwhat to do, where to go. Of course, the Staff found there... yes, it was not the grail. Where to look for? Is there any other elementalist, as the rules would demand? Is the Grail there? I've showed all the places on the maps, all the time. They could now realise they've walked a triangular path. Extrapolating, they could suppose the 4th was on the river, North of Krakatos. A square, a lozenge. "Water, water everywhere...". An imponent tower in the middle of the river. the Karameikans PCs know the place and the mage. So he is evil, at least? They find entrances below water level, can enter using them or the main gate. Water elementals, fundamentals, kins (as always, you can put related monsters that you like most; it seems that our water monsters fanatic is Mischa) etc. Now something: the man is NOT evil, he is charmed. By his fame and by talking before killing everything on site, they can find it out. I gave _lots_ of XP for that. He can have the Grail or it might be with someone at the CENTER of the lozengle, who might be a Wild Mage (I like the pyramid idea, that is, 4 elements and 1 wild making a 5 vertices system) or an evil cleric. Which of the three do you prefer? Or a 4th? I told you that was going to be long. If you flame me, I'll die, for I have no prtection from fire. None. Thanks for your patience. Hope it gives someone ideas. vini. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:48:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Alphatian Economy (was: Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Well, Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.15, under "food and drink", last >paragraph, says "Slaves and servants eat what they are allotted, which >usually isn't much." No, that doesn't mean they're starving in endemic >famines - but it doesn't suggest they're as well fed as halflings, either. True, and I hadn't read that in a couple years. Still, it goes on to say they generally eat stews, soups, and breads, but it seems to imply that they don't generally have to worry about starvation--not the case in much of the modern world, much less the world of 1000 years ago. >Might be, but it's hard to tell. P.19 under "Economy" says that Alphatia ...snip... >fall into that category). Okay, I'll concede that my estimation of Alphatia's lower classes as treated better than most of the world's population in 1800 might be a little high, although I'd still say it's about right. Alphatia as a whole seems no more oppressive, and perhaps even less so, than the USA or most of Europe around 1800. It's awfully tough to defend slavery in either Thyatis or Alphatia. There's probably a reason for that... isn't that where our heroes are supposed to come in? :-) >Lets discuss the status of Freemen: I'd say that most Freemen of Alphatia don't really have to compete against aristocrats. They need to be careful not to make too much money or get too proud, but generally I don't see many magic-users competing for the local dairy monopoly. Plus, isn't Razud a patron of prosperity? If I am remembering correctly, than his church would likely work to protect freemen enterprise from artistocratic meddling. Your description of the Aristocratic attitude reminds me of the British in Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Peron's Latest Flame" from I'll have to see if they have "Into the Darkness" at my library :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:17:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: HW baddies (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Yes, but remember that for the most part Ka moves very few people (saving >every Alphatian possible was an exception to the norm) - it's certainly >arguable that there'd be a lot fewer decendents of those who are moved if >they weren't - in other words, many people who wouldn't live at all. As for >those of the "transfered" civilizations that are left behind, again the >vast majority, they become Sind or the Milenian City States in Davania or >the Ylari (ne Nithians), &tc. So he allows most of the people facing whatever the impending disaster is to go through it, but pulls some of them into a completely different world where they're pretty much forced to live in perpetual backwardness? Sorry, he (and Korotiku, and Ixion, and whoever the others are--Ordanna and Nyx? Hel?) still don't strike me as the sweethearts they're generally portrayed as (well, not really Nyx or Hel or whomever the entropic is) :-) >Also, really, it isn't as if they can't better themselves (but the SoP is >one of those things that is really hard to tell, I guess, what exactly it >allows and doesn't allow. I did write up a "use and interpretation of the >SoP" thing, which can be found somewhere on Stan's site if anyone's >interested). Is the file at http://dnd.starflung.com/spelpres.html the one you meant? I wonder whether I was the patrick mentioned in there. I assume so, I just don't remember that thread at all. Oh well :-) Your write-up does look good, but overall the fact that stone age civilizations exist alongside bronze age and iron age civilizations remains indicative of the resistance to change inherent to the SoP. >For example, that spell in the Milenia gaz, Fertilize, didn't exist when like I said, I didn't know that. I suppose then that at least some betterment must be allowed. I still don't know just how they'd monitor it. >Well, here's where the answer has to be more of an OOC one than an IC one. >The IC one that the immortals like having a museum to amuse themselves >isn't so unrealistic, though (I mean, take a look at, say, Greek myths, and >I think you'll see that it isn't such a stretch to think Immortals would >behave in that fashion). But they wanted to create a "Lost World" >atmosphere, and the "SoP" mechanism was invented to explain the lack of >progress, and also because during that era of gaming (and probably still >now) there was a great "panic/fear" that "Oh, no! PCs will do things they >shouldn't, like show people how to invent nuclear missiles out of spit and >bailing wire if we don't stop them somehow!" - thus similar rules from that >era that say "true gunpowder doesn't work in this universe, only a magical >concoction known as Smokepowder works, which is an alchemical, enchanted >substance, so you can't make it out of animal dung and stuff found lying >around in the ground." I agree with everything you've said in here. And I think the Savage Coast is really a pretty cool setting largely because of these things. I just think it's important to call a spade a spade and say that Ka and the rest are kind of perverse in that they really enjoy watching humans in their giant fishbowl (after all, isn't that exactly what the HW is?) even if it's not particularly pleasant for those humans (or beastmen or elves or whatnot). My argument is not with the setting, it's with the impression that Ka and his cronies can do no wrong and the HW is a really nice thing they're doing. I think with the intrusion of the outer world into the HW, most adventurers probably will work to bring modern methods into the HW--whether it's to better their lives or to enslave them depends on a lot of different factors. But I would certainly give experience penalties to any PCs IMC who toured the HW with a museum-like look but don't touch attitude. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:28:31 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: vini magus's humble campaign. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >He can have the Grail or it might be with someone at the CENTER of the >lozengle, who might be a Wild Mage (I like the pyramid idea, that is, 4 >elements and 1 wild making a 5 vertices system) or an evil cleric. >Which of the three do you prefer? Or a 4th? This looks good! Not the solution that I had imagined, but great nonetheless :-) I'd recommend that, in keeping with Mystara's continuing theme of 5 Spheres, you put the grail at the center in the hands of some sort of follower of entropy. This could be anything from a strong undead to an evil cleric or necromancer to (my personal favorite) a band of fairy-folk (remember, they're all ancient immortals of entropy) who will not willingly surrender the grail and who have some sort of alliance with the Callari elves living nearby :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:35:26 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: "Mystaran stores". MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 3 or for person is not a market... yet about cyberdungeon, i order there some time ago and i was very satisfied with them... they are quite cheap compared to the auctions at e bay.... i also had business with That's Entertainment "New England's Largest Collectibles Store!" Featuring Comic Books, Trading Cards, Anime, Sports Autographs and Memorabilia, RPGs and Toys! Visit our web page at : http://www.thatse.com 244 Park Avenue , Worcester, MA 01609 508-755-4207, fax: 508-754-3882 Open 10 a.m. - 6 p.m., 7 days a week! and it went fine... i hope it might helps you. Vinicius R. de Moraes a �crit: > Please note that the date Wizards said they would end selling cheap 2nd > ed. stuff is coming... please help me, I would LOVE to get Mystara > material, I dream of it. More msg below. > > vini wrote: > > At 23:08 4/24/00 -0300, you wrote: > > >Man, I don't have all this material you guys have! I just have > > >"Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure" and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Is > > >there any way I can get other stuff? I only know abot other kingdoms via > > >the Net and the very little they say about them in Karameikos. Help! > > .. and marvelous people have answered: > > Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > WotC is having a clearance sale at their online store, and are selling > > Ethengar, Shadow Elves, Ylaruam (GREAT book!), Atruaghin, Undersea > > (Creature Crucible), Serraine (Creature Crucible), the Valley of the Wolves > > (Creature Crucible), the Northern Realms (whatever they're called ... > > Vestland, et cetera), Ierendi ... > > A lot of these go for more, used, on Ebay (a friend was going to bid $12 > > for Ylaruam on Ebay before discovering that WotC was selling it for $9). > > This is allegedly a pre-3E warehouse clearance, so ... > > > > BEAU > > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > And vini - myself - ask: > * Which of these are cool? > * Anything else - even not Mystaran- worth buying? > * Beyond the Gazeteers and Mystaran products (they are divided > insections in the page where the offers are, good page), is there > anything else related to Mystara? > * Ah, cheap places, good... does anyone have info on these online > stores? I know nothing about them, so you can tell me even about the > obvious ones. Which one I should AVOID? > > The Stalker wrote: > > There are places where you can find these things. The most notable would be Shawn Stanley's (official!) Mystara web-site at . Here you can find background on the various nations and I believe he even has very good list of online stores. I've had good experience buying stuff from myself (Wrath of the Immortals and Dawn of the Emperors, and I just got The Emirates of Ylaruam the other day...). > > > > - The Stalker of Alphatia > > Yes, that answes a lot of questions: > --> I've been to his site, it's just GREAT. If you have not gone there > yet... you're losing your time. > --> Online stores, Mr. Stanley? I'll check them out. Anyway, if someone > still wants to give 1 or 2 names, thanks. > --> Was cyberdungeon a good experience? > > And Stalker also wrote, about Brau's msg: > > Yes, except they won't deal with people outside the US. I've been trying talk to WOTC about this for over a month, but so far they keep refusing to answer my mails... :( > > > > - An annoyed Stalker of Alphatia... > > => Why don't they sell us? Hum... maybe it's not worth. But I'd like to. > And there are 3 more brazilians in this list, as an example. They wrote > me offline. Cool people. We DO have a market here, Wizards! > > Hugs, people. > vini. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:13:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> This isn't really outside the realm of possibilities, and it shouldn't > just be dismissed as Ann Dupuis going overboard, since according to Tim > Beach between 5 and 15% of each Savage Barony are spellcasters and > according to Aaron Allston 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards. << Regarding the Baronies, thats probably because every other person there has been an adventurer - and a couple of the Baronies at least have quite a magical tradition. The Savage Baronies are a bit of an exception to the rest of the world really, due to this. But they are so small it really makes little difference. The highest level canon wizard in the Baronies is I would guess Mazrooth al Yedom, who I would place at around level 16 (sounds very much like an Abi Dalzims Horrid Wilting he casts in the novel - a level 8 spell). Baronial magic would be heavily weighted towards the lower level mages I think... As for Alphatia - well, as I run AD&D the figures aren't quite so impressive, but I give them the benefit of 1000 level 18 archmages of various types. Around 0.02%. However, not all of them have intelligence 18 so they arent all capable of casting the higher level spells. By the time you weed out these, and the zzonga eaters, and the insane, the senile and the indifferent to the world varieties, that 1000 can be stripped down. The one thing that really irritates me Mystara is how stuff like this is penned in with no real thought as to the consequences. Though a level 36 D&D wizard is far less of a threat to the world than a level 18 AD&D one (by this I don't mean combat ability, I mean "world breaking" spells which would have a far reaching and radical effect on the setting). > That's true. Healing, for instance, would certainly cut down on the people > who die from otherwise treatable wounds and the infections that tend to > follow if they aren't properly attended to. > > >>I'd say that the spellcasters who are generally engaged in research or > selfish pursuits (primarily in Alphatia, Glantri, > post-wrath Karameikos, and Herath) make up a distinct minority. << Depends. 99% of clerics I would imagine are heavily involved in watching over their flock (after all, thats what they do!). But mages are an entirely different kettle of fish IMO. Also, if you look at the mage spells available, they arent really suited to "aiding the community" like clerical magic is. I suppose the most used mage spell would be Cantrip. > Ok, so some mundane Alphatians do rise to prominence. I'm not saying it > isn't or can't be done. but the above Of course, its a damn big country. At least one of the 5 million must rise to prominence every so often... Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:25:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac: Remembering The Past MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You say that I should observe and learn from how things are handled in the > Skothar group, to teach me compromise and cooperation. Well, members of the > Skothar group are on this list - they can correct me if I'm being > misleading, and one can check the mail archives of that group to see if > what I'll say now is true or false. I may step in on the defense of the Masked Man...I mean, Evil Porphy. In the Skothar team, at least till now, he has behaved as he was saying up here...Maybe I could not be the best person to defend him (just see my signature), but, as an example, he has always been very receptive of my ideas in the Thyatis Almanac Group, to the point we have in very a quick time become good co-writers (just take a look at the Thyatis files in the Tome!). I have also been corrected by James when I was refusing some ideas on the Skothar Group, telling me to compromise and remember that "you can't always get what you want" and I shouldn't be joykiller for those who has ideas different from mine. Even if James is very combattive, and if he brings up every 3 months the Thy vs Alph topic, I may say I have never had problems working with him. BUT- I don't know much about the things James pointed out in the post. So...I'll leave it up to the involved people to step in. Anyway, this topic let me thiink about something: why should we fight over a 5 years dead RPG world? And then they say the human race has difficulties in not warring with each other! If we can' make it good when we are simply fans of a game setting...I hope everybody could cool down. I hate it when we quarry on the list. (End of Rant. This bubbled over from my inner self, and maybe it is not expressed very well in English, nor in Logic, but maybe it's better, because it is more emotional), Iulius S. Scaevola Thyatian Soldier ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 08:03:51 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Mystaran Campaigns In-Reply-To: <39124C51.598B1264@stivip.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > David fora answering this one. Rading your previous msg - the underwater > campaign - It seems that you have the number 3 (mentioned below), uh? I only have PC2 and 3, but back in my days as a player my DM would mix in PC1 - it's definitely a product I intend to buy one of these years. > Please join the discussion. You seem to be fond of mixing races and > allowing players use unusual races. > Why? Well, I'm not a DM anymore, and have never really DMed other races. I do think it's fun to mix them in (though for PC3 it's practically impossible, as that setting works me as a separate entity) as it allows for more variety. The original 7 classes are nice, but so are mystics and rakes, gnomes and mermen, brownies and montoths - I wouldn't see a group of all "oddball" classes being good, but having one or two can't hurt. And heck, even if all the chars are "different" classes, it can work - for instance, a party of persecuted goblins and orcs from the lands of the Khan banding together might make for a nice campaign. Or the demihumans of Blackmoor joining forces in defense of a more accepting nation struggling to survive. Or a Lighthouse campaign in the Hollow World. As long as you can rationalize why the party exists, add in as much spice and variety as you can/as the players want! - Mischa The prohibition against eating the fruit of a particular tree is not an absolute, arbitrary, capricious rule, it's a description of the finiteness and the limited circumstance man is in. Man is not autonomous. There are limits -- and that's good. - Roberta Hestenes (in "Genesis" by B. Moyers) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:49:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: update!!! In-Reply-To: <3911EEC7.2DA423E0@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 4 May 2000, thibault sarlat wrote: > i have added many monsters on my site, along with the Borea trilogy ( 24 > miles/hex) and Wendar in 8 miles per hex which are now available. > i am currently redrawing most of my maps with my newly well oriented set > of hex. Excellent stuff Thib, too bad its so difficult to find a printer which could print all these maps. > If you have any preference, tell me... > Many changes are to come before the summer, i'll let you know... You seem to have covered the most important sections of Mystara now. But to make Brun complete, perhaps a map of Hyboea? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:51:23 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Lankhmar. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/4/00 11:26:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time, vinimagus@STIVIP.COM.BR writes: << So, people, what kind of setting is that? Medieval, cold, hot, eastern...? And, as said Mischa, it is in NO WAY related to Mystara? Again... thanks, guys. >> The setting is a classic style Hellenistic/Medieval world, about to the same scale as Mystara (i.e., the world seems to be rather small in that the arctic ("Norse") regions are deucedly closer to the tropical regions than would be normal). There is a "Norse" region far to the north, dominated by barbarians (Fafhrd's clan and others) whose "wise women" use ice magic. To the southeast lie the Mingol Steppes (nomads) and the Sea of Monsters, upon which lies the City of Ghouls (not D&D ghouls, rather they are humans with transparent flesh and innard, and one can only see their skeleton... spooky, really). Then there are the forest cities to the south east, much like Traladara in many ways. Further south across and along the Inner Sea lie Lankhmar and Ilthmar (sp?), the City of Ten Thousand Smokes (as in smokestacks) and the City of Rats. Lankhmar itself is the archetype for the "City State" style campaign (change "-mar" to "-opolis" and the Hellenistic influence is obvious). Lankhmar itself lies on a "sub-continent" of sorts, complete with deserts, moun tains, jungles and swamps, all in a package about half the size of the Isle of Dawn on Mystara. Far, far to the east lies the Citadel of the King of Kings, a Persian-style state. There are also numerous lost and sunken cities, strange lands (like the Land of Death, far across the Outer Sea). There are strange beasts, like the Ice Gnomes and the Invisibles of Stardock (perhaps related to the Ghouls?), as well as powerful and meddlesome wizards, usually alien in nature, such as Ningauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face. Lankhmar and the island it is on could be placed somewhere in Mystara with only some slight changes. It is connected to the mainland through the Sinking Lands, an isthmus that regularly sinks into the waters of the Inner Sea and the Sea of the East and then once again rises (usually at inopertune times). Thus, it could be placed on the west coast of any major continent (or, if you invert the map, on the east coast too). The prime area would be the west coast of Brun, whioch is pretty isolated, unless you wanted to totally redevelop the Esterhold Peninsula, which could be changed out for the Lankhmar Sub-Continent, and then the Great Forest could be placed in the southern "Thonian Marches". That way, Fafhrd's people could be the last remnants of the Skhandaharian/Nentsun peoples and the Lankhmar/Ilthmar peoples would be descendents of Neathar/Oltec types, with perhaps an admixture of true Thonians. The eastern wastes would fit well with the concept of the Jennite tribes... Another option would be to lift the city state of Lankhmar from the setting and use it as a city of the Known World, say, West or East Portage, but that would require almost as much work if not more. James A. Mishler Magister Mystaros Mystara Lives! Check out the excellent Official Mystara Website: http://dnd.starflung.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 08:08:11 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Un-Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > Sorry if this is a dead topic, > Some would say the whole topic was "dead" when it re-appeared in the first place. 8-) << Yikes...my mail is still coming slow (probably due to all the Love Bug - virus problems), but there were some comments in here that inspired more ideas, so I thought I would share them. >>Actually, you won't get creamed for saying it, and you make some points that I think are useful ones, though they can be pushed too far (I.E. to the extent to which mages re-assert their previous perogatives in the Alphatian territories that remain on the surface, the military commanders would then no longer be "left to their own resources". Also, it's probably debatable the extent to which Alphatian military forces would be commanded by non-aristocrats, though I do tend to agree with you to some extent on that point, if only because the influence of Torenal would have been important in advancing military-minded fighters as opposed to promoting aristocrats to command simply because they are aristocrats - and that Torenal-influence would linger, at least for a time. But eventually the Aristocrats might decide they want control of their army back. After all, hard to keep power if someone else runs the army. Just ask the Mamluks how that works). << Good point. I have to admit that I don't see too many mages getting involved "on the front lines," as it were...especially in ground forces. [commanding skyships is a totally different matter]. I think that directly commanding ground forces might be seen by many mages as "dirty work", and therefore beneath them. I'm sure that they would retain control from afar...perhaps mainland Alphatia, but once it sinks, all of that control vanishes. Skyship forces might be a different matter. Owning a skyship is seen as a sign of prestige in Alphatia, so I think that if Alpher mages are pressed into fighting in the war, then their first choice would be to command/serve on a skyship. Once again, this may free up many groundling command positions. Having said the above, I am also sure that there are mages out there, in that vast Alpher empire, who would jump at the chance to command groundling troops (and perhaps get to test out some nice new - ie destructive - spells. Even so, fighters and their ilk would probably remain around, especially in advisory positions. Fighting tactics, are after all, the relm of the fighters. So my question is, how many non-mages are given "command" opportunities in the Alpher armies. I would assume that some armies staff more fighter types that others, but let's not make this too hard for ourselve yet. First let's just get some rough estimates/ratios. What do you think? >>It could be. But one of the problems is that people then tend to "back-project" things (assuming that because it's that way now, it always has been), or that these changes would occur very smoothy (as they have tended to in the post-WotI Alphatia, with the sole but significant exception of Esterhold. Ok, Zandor's monkeying wasn't friction-free, but it was about as benign and bloodless a "crazed dictatorship" could be, too) and without upheaval and societal problems and attempts to "turn back the clock" etc. Mamluk-Alphatia might be cool, though (the slaves take over! the Aristocrats become disposessed nobles!). But I don't think there's a chance of that. . . << Yeah, either Zandor was on prozak at the time, or Broderick is a genius. Perhaps a little bit of both. Anyway, I think that when Alphatia sinks, that would be the time for non-mage military commanders to act...if they are going to act at all. They may be able to overpower (read as assassinate) any mages that are left in their way. This could provide ample amounts of RPing for PCs. -- Alphatia sinks, and one of the PCs overhears their commander's plans to wrest control from the "idiot mages who lost this war." Do they side with the fighters? Do they side with the mages? Or do they decide to simply get out of Dodge? Perhaps there are others (like Broderick) who still feel loyalty for the Empire. Or who are simply waiting for an appropriate time to dispose of "Zandor" type mages that might be hanging around, before they act out their coup. The possibilities are nearly endless. >> Bellisarian Alphers. Perhaps the military Alphers set up their own empire on the eastern > side of the IoD. Thyatis might even encourage this, as it sets up a "buffer" empire > between them and the mage Alphers on Bellisaria (not that they have much to fear from > Bellisaria). > Keep 'em divided, though, and that prevents a potential problem from arising. << Yeah. I think that the IoD would be the place for non-mages Alphers to stage a coup. The Aristocracy laws are already lax in those areas, and trade/interaction with Thyatians has probably created a different mindset about fighters and mages anyway. Why wouldn't Thyatis support this? They may even send supplies, weapons, or advisors (and perhaps some Thyatian mages to help counter the remaining Alpher ones). I doubt that the Alpher military would jump into the sack with Thyatis however. I think that they would probably want to retain their own rulership. They might accept Thyatian help, but would probably take steps to insure that the Thyatians don't gain a strong hold over them...once again ample opportunity for role playing, for whichever side the PCs are on. So assuming that something like this happened, how do you think that the Thothians would react? Which side would they take in the matter (or would they take any side at all)? I wonder if they would be in any kind of position to dictate policy, or if perhaps the ex-Alpher military might come in and help to "liberate" Thothia from the Thyatians, only to set up their own domains. What do you think? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: virus note Hi all, This is just a quick note to anyone who has tried sending email to me recently at my other email address (ganderg@tc.gc.ca): if it has been bounced back to you, or if you don't hear from me for a while, it is because my department has blocked off all email communications with external servers until this iloveyou virus has been contained (why they haven't shut down telnet yet is beyond me, but anyway...). To everyone else, I apologise for this off-topic post. Thanks, Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:50:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mystaran Economies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> True, and I hadn't read that in a couple years. Still, it goes on to say they generally eat stews, soups, and breads, but it seems to imply that they don't generally have to worry about starvation--not the case in much of the modern world, much less the world of 1000 years ago. << Well, I'm not sure about that - because that same diet description could easily be applied to a Serf of, say, 1250 AD (bread, some vegetables, an occasional gobbet of meat, stews and soups.) A striking thing is that they get "what they're alloted" - which doesn't imply that they get to decide how much they need to eat, and, again, we all know what tends to happen when someone else is making such decisions for you (ok, sounds a bit 20th century, too - "Great Leap Forward" China and Collectivization-era Soviet Union, when millions starved). >> Alphatia as a whole seems no more oppressive, and perhaps even less so, than the USA or most of Europe around 1800.<< I guess it depends on how well or badly you think most people had it in Europe or the USA around 1800. Here I was analyzing the description of Alphatia without picking a yardstick of comparison per se. But, if you figure most people had things pretty rotten most of the time in the USA or Europe around 1800, then I'll concede that. >> It's awfully tough to defend slavery in either Thyatis or Alphatia. There's probably a reason for that... isn't that where our heroes are supposed to come in? :-) << Right, my point is, I guess, that it's also awfully tough to defend *Servant* class in Alphatia. And sure, I agree with you about the Our Heroes thing. >> I'd say that most Freemen of Alphatia don't really have to compete against aristocrats. They need to be careful not to make too much money or get too proud, but generally I don't see many magic-users competing for the local dairy monopoly. << Actually, it's probably the dairy monopoly (agriculture stuff in general) that they'd be competing for. After all, we just got done agreeing that Alphatian society is focused on keeping power (and wealth is a component of power) in the hands of the Aristocrats, and out of the hands of others (don't make too much money or get too proud). Of course, that's not to say the Aristocrat would be down there supervising the operations of the businesses he owns - but there's a distinction between owning a business and running it (one can hire flunkies to do that). It's debatable if that's the best economic strategy. . .well, actually, it isn't debatable - it's not. That's why Alphatia isn't Darokin. There's no indication I can see that Alphatia generally takes into consideration the needs of tradesmen, or has much consideration for such things except insofar as the wealth can be "sheared" to finance the stuff the Aristocrats are interested in - and shearing it rather than devoting it to re-investing in expanding the business, etc. isn't conducive to a sound economy. Neither are Alphatia's system of laws - which certainly can result in the expropriation of a successful business (sure, few Aristocrats are interested in the hard, "dull" work of building a business up from scratch, but they'd be happy to end up with the profits from a successful one. And this is very Midieval/Renaisance/near-modernesque - *except* in places that were highly geared towards insuring the continued welfare of tradesmen and commercial types). Alphatia just doesn't strike me as much of a pro-merchantile place (correct me if there's evidence to the contrary) - in all of Alphatia, there are several Kingdoms devoted to tourism (as have been mentioned), some even focused around military stuff (Randel, Stonewall, Greenspur), some around resource extraction (Verdan, Blackrock), some around magical research (Blackheart, Aeria), but not one region devoted to commerce and trade generally - Hillvale/West Portage comes closest, facilitating trade across the neck of the Isle of Dawn - but there the description of it (p.11, Player's Guide to Alphatia) says that "The petty king here. . .is reputed to have friends among the thyatian merchant class. . ." - it mentions a "Thyatian merchant class" but not an Alphatian one, which would be an odd thing to leave out if there was a well developed merchantile class in Alphatia. Your very point, that the tradesmen "need to be careful not to make too much money or get too proud" is a key one, and is pretty much the point I was making. But it really needs to be remembered what a drag this can put on the growth of a "spirit of enterprise" ("what a drag, man! Dude, harsh!" - that's not what I meant, but I guess it fits). Places that are successful in promoting trade and economic growth tend to, whether we like it or not, be ones that are attentive to the needs of commerce and tradesmen, and go to some lengths to look out for their welfare. One can see why Darokin and Minrothad are what they are, and why Alphatia is not Darokin in this respect, or even Thyatis. In Darokin and Minrothad attention is given to the needs of the traders, and for a very good reason: the traders are in charge, so of course they look after their own needs, and pay attention to their own problems. But, also, in Darokin (and probably also in Minrothad, though the sources are less explicit about this), the economy is based not on "cheap labor" (as explicitly stated in Alphatia re Economy and as depicted re. description under Servant), but instead on comparatively well paid but skilled labor. Such things are done because it's "good for business" (the Darokinian view of things), wheras in Alphatia the attitude is "know your place" - business doesn't enter into it, other societal concerns trump such things, but the side effect on commercial progress isn't good. Darokin and Minrothad have consistant laws (or seem to), the importance of which really shouldn't be under estimated - having advanced knowlege that things won't be upset on a whim is very important when small things can often be the difference between a successful enterprise and ruin. Lets take a historical comparison, and so as to not offend anyone I'll compare regions in one country rather than make comparisons between countries (though that might come in, too, to some extent). As it happens, there is a very good historical example, applicable from early midieval times but with an impact felt right down to modern times. That example is Italy. Around 1000 AD, trade-oriented towns were starting to spring up in Italy: in north Italy it was Venice, Genoa, and Pisa, with Milan developing later. In south/central Italy Naples and Amalfi were also participating in this growth of commercial enterprise. But something happened, and by the late 11th century both Naples and Amalfi largely "fell off the track" that the north Italian towns were following. What happened? The growth of the strong feudal Norman state in south Italy. Now, this isn't to say that the Norman Kingdom was backward or anything - far from it: -for its time, the Kingdom was one of the strongest and most dynamic of the feudal Kingdoms, generally "performing better" than nations much larger than it. But it was very feudal-traditional, and tradesmen didn't fit into the serf/noble/cleric model. So Naples and Amalfi and the other towns of South Italy never developed the same sort of commercial vigor that the trade-based northern cities did (with Florence eventually displacing and absorbing Pisa); this persisted throughout the middle ages and renaisance, and has had a impact right down to modern times - northern Italy is the more developed, industrial, "advanced" portion of the nation, with southern Italy still striving to catch up. The difference? Both places started down the same "track", but a small change occured - small but significant. The northern towns were interested in the problems and needs of merchants, because they were usually led by merchantile houses/families. In south Italy the Kings were concerned primarily with how much money the traders could give him to finance their adventures throughout the Mediteranean world - so he "sheared" them when he could, at unpredictable times (not unlike other feudal Kingdoms where trade was atrophied compared to north Italy or Flanders), and they never really recovered. Now, lets flash forward to your 1800 example, and look at the ideas promoted by Adam Smith (who's gotten a bad rap to some extent), and why - as well as why places that tended to adopt them advanced economically ("workshop of the world") faster than those that lagged behind. Among the key things he insisted was nessissary for the generation/development of wealth was non-arbitrary, reasonably impartial laws - to steal from another poster, in effect "laws that applied to all, high and low" - this is, really, IMO, what the "Rule of Law" is all about - anyplace can have so-called laws, but laws that are "flexable" in the eyes of the rulers aren't really laws. People would be well advised to read up on the kinds of things (laws/edicts/exactions, etc) that he decried as abusive and ill-advised and compare them with the types of things he advocated in their stead, and then compare to which areas of Mystara the "unwise" sort of things seem to hold and which areas are closer to having the more "proper" laws. Complete unregulation, btw, wasn't his point (or Hayek's either, for that matter - it's also useful to read him). What was important was that such regulations that did exist be created not to benifit this or that person or group, but instead apply to activities irregardless of persons, across the board - and that the laws be consistant, understandable, and predictable, to facilitate people being able to know then in advance and weigh the relative merits and demerits of decisions. Of course, there's more to it than that, I'm just sumarizing, which is why I recomended taking a look at his writings themselves. >> Plus, isn't Razud a patron of prosperity? If I am remembering correctly, than his church would likely work to protect freemen enterprise from artistocratic meddling. << Razud is a patron of "helping those who don't need help" (ok, actually "helping the self-sufficient" - which seems like an odd thing). Korys is the patron of prosperity. And, sure, the various temples of Korys and Razud (though Raz always seemed more like a "pro-Aristo" Immortal - after all, in Alphatia it's the aristos who don't need help) might work to protect freemen enterprises from aristocratic meddling. And if the Alphatians cared about religion, it might even be effective from time to time. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:11:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Economy (was: Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) In-Reply-To: <081501bfb65d$fcb50a00$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 May 2000, Patrick Sullivan wrote: > >Well, Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.15, under "food and drink", last > >paragraph, says "Slaves and servants eat what they are allotted, which > >usually isn't much." No, that doesn't mean they're starving in endemic > >famines - but it doesn't suggest they're as well fed as halflings, either. > > True, and I hadn't read that in a couple years. Still, it goes on to say > they generally eat stews, soups, and breads, but it seems to imply that they > don't generally have to worry about starvation--not the case in much of the > modern world, much less the world of 1000 years ago. > A thousand years ago, the average peasant ate stews, soups, and breads. Those are the meals of Joe Peasant around the world. Take hot water, add a few herbs, and throw whatever you can afford in the pot. As long as you don't have a famine, you're okay. Soup gets pretty thin in famine times. > Okay, I'll concede that my estimation of Alphatia's lower classes as treated > better than most of the world's population in 1800 might be a little high, > although I'd still say it's about right. Alphatia as a whole seems no more > oppressive, and perhaps even less so, than the USA or most of Europe around > 1800. > I'd say you're way off. The only aspect of 1800 society that wasn't better for poor people was if that poor person was a slave. The Alphatians don't treat their slaves particularly worse than those of 1800 America, but the average poor person was rather better off in most European societies than in Alphatia. He couldn't be enslaved, for one thing. He couldn't simply be arbitrarily murdered by a nobleman. He didn't have to save up a ludicrous amount of money in order to be free of the control of someone else. (10,000 GP is the equivalent of nearly a thousand years' wages for a laborer). While 1800 was not a wonderful time to be a laborer, the average laborer had more freedom, more safety, and more security than the lower classes of Alphatia, and better prospects of improving himself. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: HW baddies (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Hel?) still don't strike me as the sweethearts they're generally portrayed as (well, not really Nyx or Hel or whomever the entropic is) :-) << Well, I'm not sure *any* of the Immortals are really portrayed as sweeties (unless they're helping Alphatia <---that's a crack, by the way, I don't mean it seriously). At *best* they're "admirable" for the same reason one might admire a tough but grim fighter - not because he's a nice guy, but because he's a hard-ass, and if you like hard-ass types, then you might like, say, Ixion. Most of 'em are flighty selfish jerks, even the "Lawful" ones, often - but they're like gods from the myths. *EXCEPT* for Nyx. You can say whatever you want about the others, but Nyx really is a sweetie. 8-) >> Is the file at http://dnd.starflung.com/spelpres.html the one you meant? << >> I wonder whether I was the patrick mentioned in there. I assume so, I just don't remember that thread at all. << You could be. I donno - do you hang out on the MMB as well? That's where the discussion that led to that SoP thing occured. There's a Patrick on the MMB, and I guess I always figured you and he were the same guy (Hmmmn. . .but I've *never* seen you in the same room with him. Or with Batman, either, by the way. . .Hmmmn. . .) >>like I said, I didn't know that. I suppose then that at least some betterment must be allowed. I still don't know just how they'd monitor it. << Who knows? When it comes right down to it the SoP is one of those things on which people can impose whatever interpretation they like best, which is why. . .well, I won't say it. >> I just think it's important to call a spade a spade and say that Ka and the rest are kind of perverse in that they really enjoy watching humans in their giant fishbowl (after all, isn't that exactly what the HW is?) << Well, that's pretty much how they treat Mystara as a whole, too, isn't it? I mean, from that perspective the HW isn't much different in kind, it's just different in degree and creation. And I'm all with you on calling a spade a spade, which is why I come right out and say what I think about Alphatia, even if I think that sort of Alphatia is much better & more fun from a gaming standpoint, than the "kinder, gentler" one. >> My argument is not with the setting, it's with the impression that Ka and his cronies can do no wrong and the HW is a really nice thing they're doing. << Replace "Ka" with "Eriadna" and "his" with "hers" and "the HW" with "Alphatia" in the above sentance 8-). Well, I don't see the HW as a bad thing, or a good thing, just sort of an "indifferent/neutral" thing - and Ka is, after all, Neutral, not good. IIRC most of his buddies in the "HW project" are, too. >> But I would certainly give experience penalties to any PCs IMC who toured the HW with a museum-like look but don't touch attitude. << Oh, well, if you read the HW set characters are clearly *not* intended to just tour and gape like it's a museum. It even allows for them conquering large streaches of the HW and otherwise monkeying around. The sorts of obsticles they put in the PCs way of creating a unified state and changing cultural attitudes strike me as more common-sensical than unrealistically restrictive, anyhow (I.E. "just because you grab a bunch of locals and have them build a city for you doesn't mean they'll stop prefering their own clothing, foods, weapons, and the like" - well, duh, if you do that on Earth you'll run into the same things. Cultural resistance to change, especially externally-imposed change, isn't a phantasm. You shouldn't be able to re-make one of the surface areas, like Darokin or Ostland, from the ground up, either - Ostlanders should still like their axes and horned helmets, etc. Note that it does allow for some change though, in succeeding generations. You might eventually end up with "your kind of place", but it isn't instantanious.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:51:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Yikes...my mail is still coming slow (probably due to all the Love Bug - virus problems), but there were some comments in here that inspired more ideas, so I thought I would share them. >> Yes, my server's irritatingly strange today, too. >> Having said the above, I am also sure that there are mages out there, in that vast Alpher empire, who would jump at the chance to command groundling troops (and perhaps get to test out some nice new - ie destructive - spells. >> That's true, but doing it so you can blow stuff up ("neat, cool! Look at that guy fry! *giggle*") isn't the same as becoming a skilled, effective military commander. That seems to have caused problems for them historically. << Even so, fighters and their ilk would probably remain around, especially in advisory positions. Fighting tactics, are after all, the relm of the fighters. >> Yes, I'd agree with that. >> So my question is, how many non-mages are given "command" opportunities in the Alpher armies. I would assume that some armies staff more fighter types that others, but let's not make this too hard for ourselve yet. First let's just get some rough estimates/ratios. What do you think? << I would say that fighter types frequently form lower ranking officers. Units with mages in them at all will probably rarely be commanded by a fighter (what? some peon giving orders to Aristocrats?), but that does seem to have happened in the "Torenal Era Military" - Remember, common soldiers (but not spellcasting ones) have the status of Servants ("minions"), officers have the status of Freemen (not even Gentry), while Aristocrats who are military officers have the status of Lords, which is several social degrees up from the status of any fighter-officer. What I would tend to say, in general, would be that often Division Commanders/Generals/Admirals et al would be mages, their Deputy Commanders (with flunky titles like "Aide" or "Adjutant") would be Fighters - I.E. the real "authority/prestige" would be in the hands of an Aristo, but the Fighter/Deputy would probably do most of the day-to-day running of the unit (Aristos don't want to hang out with a bunch of common Servant-grade private soldiers anyhow, or do paperwork and the like. But they'll set the "tone" of the unit, and issue overall commands. Which is ok, 'cause that's mostly what Generals do. But unfamiliarity with troops, needs of troops, details of tactics, etc. would be a problem). Of course, during the Big One lots of irregularities would have crept in (as the war went on some of the aristocrat generals might have gotten themselves killed, or simply decided this wasn't for them and become an "absentee commander", and the dead ones might not have been replaced with other Aristos, leaving fighter-types in command of some units), plus there would have probably been some winking and nodding even before the war started (instead of having Aristos in command everywhere even at the begining, there would have been some important non-aristo commanders, especially out away from the Alphatian mainland, where being a spellcasting aristocrat isn't as important). After all, guys like Torenal in the first place and Broderick in the second place have to come from somewhere, right? But commanders over spellcasters who aren't themselves aristocrats (Freemen giving orders to Aristocrats) would be odd since it defeats the whole premise of Alphatian society. As for what the proportion might be, "beats me, your guess is as good as mine." >> They may be able to overpower (read as assassinate) any mages that are left in their way. This could provide ample amounts of RPing for PCs. -- Alphatia sinks, and one of the PCs overhears their commander's plans to wrest control from the "idiot mages who lost this war." Do they side with the fighters? Do they side with the mages? Or do they decide to simply get out of Dodge? << That's true. Sounds fun. >> The possibilities are nearly endless. << Yep. >> Yeah. I think that the IoD would be the place for non-mages Alphers to stage a coup. The Aristocracy laws are already lax in those areas, and trade/interaction with Thyatians has probably created a different mindset about fighters and mages anyway. Why wouldn't Thyatis support this? They may even send supplies, weapons, or advisors (and perhaps some Thyatian mages to help counter the remaining Alpher ones). << Something similar, but not identical, is, ironically, how I handled stuff IMC long ago - after WotI, instead of jumping off and trying to conquer the IoD, Thyatis attempted to promote the elivation of "friendly/favorable" rulers in the Alphatian part of the IoD, to create a buffer zone (with the eventual goal of turning the places into client-states). Thothia caused a bunch of problems, but "Thyatian sneakiness" ended up having some of these places seeking help against "Thothian agression" from Thyatis! The whole thing became a big mess (full of twisted politics, mutual plots by everyone to try and take advantage of everyone else, odd interventions, and the like), and was great fun, but the campaign ended (for one thing, I moved) before there was anything one might call a "resolution". >> I doubt that the Alpher military would jump into the sack with Thyatis however. I think that they would probably want to retain their own rulership. They might accept Thyatian help, but would probably take steps to insure that the Thyatians don't gain a strong hold over them...once again ample opportunity for role playing, for whichever side the PCs are on. << Exactly. >> So assuming that something like this happened, how do you think that the Thothians would react? Which side would they take in the matter (or would they take any side at all)? << IMO, post-WotI they take their own side. I was always puzzled by them throwing their lot in with the "New New Alphatian Empire" or NACE or whatever - after all, if they can stand on their own two feet, conquer Ekto, Trikelios, and Hillvale, and gain control over Aeria, why would they want to then meekly subordinate themselves again? If Ramenhotep really dreams of some day ruling the entire Isle of Dawn, "contributing" as a mere "member" to some other cause and releasing his gains (so that instead of being "greatful subjects" of Thothia they are "equal members and Kingdoms" in some new confederation) would be odd - unless he planned on secretly taking advantage of things then stabbing his "buddies" in the back at some point. But, even so, giving up so much (numerous Kingdoms all beholden to Thothia) - there'd have to be some big payoff down the road that he's reaching for, getting all back and more in a way he couldn't otherwise have done, for it to be worth it. Plus, it's much more fun (but less "nice") if everyone's out for themselves - much more contravluted scheming and the like. >> I wonder if they would be in any kind of position to dictate policy, or if perhaps the ex-Alpher military might come in and help to "liberate" Thothia from the Thyatians, only to set up their own domains. What do you think? << Sure, anything like that could happen, too. That might make for an interesting "Crusade"-like scenario to get back to that discussion a bit. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mystaran Economies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Actually, it's probably the dairy monopoly (agriculture stuff in general) > that they'd be competing for. > Oh, I forgot to say more about that specifically - land (agricultural land) has traditionally been the prefered sort of "wealth generating" thing for Aristocrats all over the world in all eras except our own very recent one - it's a comparatively "safe" investment, you're likely to get a fairly regular "return" on it, it's not subject to some of the things that can make other commercial enterprises dicey (or at least wasn't - again, things aren't the same now.) And owning land can be "fun" (you've got places to conduct stag or fox or boar hunts in, build big houses on hillocks, numerous peons to tell you how wonderful you are, etc.), and if you hire overseers to make sure the minions are doing what they're supposed to, the enterprise is comparatively "self-sustaining", so you can end up with lots of leisure to conduct other activities (the goal of the "Aristocratic good life" from classical Greek times to the 19th century). There are other reasons why land ("the dairy monopoly") would be the choice bet for aristos, but these are the main ones. > > Hillvale/West Portage comes closest, > Here I meant "Hillvale/East Portage". Sorry for any confusion that I might have caused. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:22:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: ToM Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello everyone! I'd like to announce that Tome of Mystara is accepting submissions for Issue #4. Deadline is June 1, 2000. Everyone is welcome - we'd love to see some new authors show their stuff! Send submissions as in-body text to either mystaratome@yahoo.com or to valerya@webtv.net. Oh, and be sure to get your character entries in for our contest - see Issue #3 for details! Jennifer Guerra Editor, Tome of Mystara http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:20:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Undead/Entropy Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question: Do people think it possible for an Undead being to reach Immortality in a Sphere other than Entropy? Say, if Brannart McGregor used the Radiance to become an Immortal in the Sphere of Energy? But, specifically, do you think it's possible for an Undead being to be sponsored for, and achieve, Immortality in any of the Spheres, not just Entropy? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:46:44 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [[MYSTARA] Undead/Entropy Question] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >Do people think it possible for an Undead being to reach Immortality in = a >Sphere other than Entropy? I don't see why not, especially if you use the Gold Box rules, which allo= ws for an Initiate to change his Sphere upon final ascension to Immortality = (ie, despite questing in the Sphere of Matter, he could opt to transfer allegi= ance to the Sphere of Energy). IMO, I allow for the Spheres to be less static than the Gold Box or the W= otI rules sets- more like the ideologies they are, rather than something akin= to a character class. This allows for Immortals to change their viewpoints ove= r time, and explains such things as Atzanteotl being tricked into believing= for years that Rafiel was actually an Entropic Immortal himself. I'd probably make the PC changing Spheres take a PP penalty at first- may= be only gain PPs at some percentage of the normal rate until earning his nex= t level, at which point progression begins normally again. >But, specifically, do you think it's possible for an Undead being to be >sponsored for, and achieve, Immortality in any of the Spheres, not just >Entropy? Again, I don't see why not. It would be rare, even for an Undead to becom= e an Entropic (Immortality being sort of the opposite of Entropy). But with a suitable sponsor (or alternative means- Radiance, etc.) I don't see why i= t wouldn't be possible. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:47:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Undead/Entropy Question In-Reply-To: <200005051722.NAA28707@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 12:20:28PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 12:20:28PM -0500, James Ruhland wrote: > Question: > Do people think it possible for an Undead being to reach Immortality in a > Sphere other than Entropy? Yup, don't see why not, afterall an alive person can get into entropy... > Say, if Brannart McGregor used the Radiance to become an Immortal in the > Sphere of Energy? > But, specifically, do you think it's possible for an Undead being to be > sponsored for, and achieve, Immortality in any of the Spheres, not just > Entropy? I reckon it would be tricky, but not impossible. Getting into Matter might be a bit tricky, I think Energy would be the easiest (using the Radiance). gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:50:08 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >IMO, post-WotI they take their own side. I was always puzzled by them >throwing their lot in with the "New New Alphatian Empire" or NACE or >whatever - after all, if they can stand on their own two feet, conquer >Ekto, Trikelios, and Hillvale, and gain control over Aeria, why would they >want to then meekly subordinate themselves again? If Ramenhotep really >dreams of some day ruling the entire Isle of Dawn, "contributing" as a mere >"member" to some other cause and releasing his gains (so that instead of >being "greatful subjects" of Thothia they are "equal members and Kingdoms" >in some new confederation) would be odd - unless he planned on secretly >taking advantage of things then stabbing his "buddies" in the back at some >point. But, even so, giving up so much (numerous Kingdoms all beholden to >Thothia) - there'd have to be some big payoff down the road that he's >reaching for, getting all back and more in a way he couldn't otherwise have >done, for it to be worth it. > Plus, it's much more fun (but less "nice") if everyone's out for >themselves - much more contravluted scheming and the like. Not to mention that, IMO, Ramenhotep has shown himself to be far more competent than the rest of NACE. On the other hand, perhaps there's a way to justify this.... What if Haldemar really does have the only surviving copy of the Thothian Enchantment? Or what if Ramenhotep has access to an enchantment that enhances its power, but he needs the original first. They have lots of things enchanted with the Thothian Enchantment, but the enchantments are slowly decaying and Ramenhotep is willing to throw all the resources necessary toward getting the Princess Ark. But, as long as Haldemar is cooperating with NACE, his best hope of luring the PA to Thothia is to join the confederation and engineer some sort of crisis when the Ark is nearby. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:55:28 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia")] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >I would say that fighter types frequently form lower ranking officers. >Units with mages in them at all will probably rarely be commanded by a >fighter (what? some peon giving orders to Aristocrats?) I'd wholeheartedly agree with this. I'd say it's akin to the old practice= of selling commands to those with the money (but not necessarily the ability= ) to afford them. I'd imagine most Alphatian mages would start out as lower ra= nking officers (except in some rare cases, like the IMO "elite" Boltmen) and wo= uld probably buy their way (or rarely, be promoted by ability) to higher positions. = Non-magic using classes would have to settle for the lower ranking positi= ons, or in (again) rare cases, be promoted through the ranks by virtue of demonstrated ability. Note that they'd probably also have to still purcha= se their title, which would keep most of them from achieving high ranks. Commander Broderick probably benefited from "Richard Sharpe" syndrome, in= this case. (As did his lieutenant, William Hazard, who I introduced in the alm= anac last year. :) The great disadvantage here is that poor Alphatian commanders must beware= how they treat their men, else they end up being shot in the back by a crossb= ow bolt fired by their own side. ;) Note that the Thyatian military is described as doing this very sort of t= hing as well. I'd say the primary difference is that with the Thyatians, you'r= e going to have a far higher chance of getting a competent officer than in = the Alphatian military. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:05:34 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia")] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >IMO, post-WotI they take their own side. I was always puzzled by them >throwing their lot in with the "New New Alphatian Empire" or NACE or >whatever - after all, if they can stand on their own two feet, conquer >Ekto, Trikelios, and Hillvale, and gain control over Aeria, why would >t= hey want to then meekly subordinate themselves again? = I thought it was a bit puzzling myself, but it was something that was dec= ided before we began doing the almanacs. I've tried to play up the point of th= ere being internal dischord in Thothia that has kept Ramenhotep from making a= ny more overt moves (based on things that were mentioned in previous "offici= al" almanacs and things that Michael Roy, the almanac "founder" came up with)= =2E I don't think it's come off quite as well and as evidently as I'd hoped as = yet, but I hope to do a bit more detail on it coming up. IMO, it's really the only rationale that I can come up with- religious st= rife over the Rathanos vs. Entropy worshippers (from during the Aketheti eras)= , as well as the Thothian indigees vs. the Alphatian/Thothian intruders. Also, the Thothian empire is very spread out- there are relatively few pe= ople for the area involved, and most of them appear to be located on the plain= s at the far end of the Isle of Dawn- not very close to the capitol city of Ed= airo at all. Even with magical communications and things (possibly assisted by= the pyramid magicks of their Nithian forebears... hmmm, that sounds interesti= ng) I'd imagine the "eastern" Thothians (as well as the plateau dwellers- wha= t few there are) are somewhat more independent of the "western" Thothians than = not. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:47:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Creature Crucibles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: > >I'm very fond of the setting half of "Top Ballista" and the other >crucibles, but I'm not inclined to let players run monster characters >in my campaigns. > >It can unbalance the game, frustate other players, take the >control of the game out of the DM's hands. > >These are my narrow-view "good and bad" analysis. What else do you >think? Why not a wak monster? An orc player or something like that? > Essentially, a DM should address two issues when deciding on such matters. First, balance: an orc is not going to unbalance any campaign, and the same would apply to an entire group of goblinoids. OTOH, a sphinx or a troll can definitely change the balance of a campaign. Second, the effect on the character mix of the group: if you drop a random orc in a "standard" group, he's not going to last long. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:02:27 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > > >> This isn't really outside the realm of possibilities, and it shouldn't > just be dismissed as Ann Dupuis going overboard, since according to Tim > Beach between 5 and 15% of each Savage Barony are spellcasters and > according to Aaron Allston 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards. << > > While that's true, other canon stuff gives completely different impressions > (take Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, which on p.19 says that "while other > locales boast only one wizard in every 5,000 people, an estimated one in > 200 Glantrians is a wizard." Of course, by "wizard" perhaps instead of just > any old mage they mean one of some repute - 9th level or higher, say, but > it's hard to say). One in five thousand would mean there are less than a > hundred in all of Karameikos, though. > If 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards, than at least 15% of Alphatian population is composed by wizards. Considering that they cannot be more than 40% of the classed population, it will mean that nearly 40% of the Alphatian are classed. A similar figure can be obtained for the SC. OTOH, the Glantrian figure shows that classed Glantrians are around 2.5%. IMO, the non-classed population (normal men) should be at least 90%, with a classed population which may range from 2% for, say, Darokin (most people are tradesmen), to 10% for the Savage Coast (many mercenaries and adventurers). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:38:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was"Un-Alphatia")] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Commander Broderick probably benefited from "Richard Sharpe" syndrome, in this case. (As did his lieutenant, William Hazard, who I introduced in the almanac last year. :) << That's probably true. I haven't read the Sharpe books :( But I did see parts of the TV programs made about some, so I know what you mean by that. >> The great disadvantage here is that poor Alphatian commanders must beware how they treat their men, else they end up being shot in the back by a crossbow bolt fired by their own side. ;) << A key point. And things don't have to get to the point of "fraggings" for there to be problems. I keep hawking this book, people will probably start thinking I get royalties from it, but that kind of problem plays a significant role "Into the Darkness" (and all the "sides" have officers that are similar in the sense that they got their positions in no small part because of aristocratic birth, but the differences in attitudes & mores become really important. . .a case of "you don't have to be perfect, you just have to be better than the other guy." Or "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you.") >> I thought it was a bit puzzling myself, but it was something that was decided before we began doing the almanacs. << I know, I wasn't criticizing you on that - that wasn't my intent. Sorry if it came off that way. I know that happened in JA - and there might have been reasons for *that* too, but they never got explained (whatever plots that might have unfolded never unfolded) because the line went and died on us - it seems strange, but it might have become understandable, or at least been less strange, as things unfolded. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What if Haldemar really does have the only surviving copy of the Thothian Enchantment? << That's a possibility to remember. I do have to say that I've always thought of the Thothian Enchantment as being too "uber" for incorporation into the game setting, though. As a plot device in the VotPA stories it's fine and even cool, but I think using it in the "game-related" part of the setting would cause more problems than it would solve/help with - unless it was toned down significantly and/or the drawbacks/costs more explicitly emphasized (I know there are chances of bad things happening, going bonkers and all, but the ultimate "cost" is outweighed greatly by the "benifit", especially if you do come up snake eyes but can recover - via clerical aid, wishes, or whatever. If the side-effects are less avoidable/negatable, then it's less of a problem). Otherwise, it's not for nuthin that I refer to it as "FRLMS #9". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:06:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was"Un-Alphatia")]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland wrote: > >> The great disadvantage here is that poor Alphatian commanders must >>beware how they treat their men, else they end up being shot in the bac= k >>by a crossbow bolt fired by their own side. ;) << > >A key point. And things don't have to get to the point of "fraggings" fo= r >there to be problems. I keep hawking this book, people will probably >st= art thinking I get royalties from it, but that kind of problem plays a >significant role "Into the Darkness" (and all the "sides" have officers >that are similar in the sense that they got their positions in no small >part because of aristocratic birth, but the differences in attitudes & >mores become really important. . .a case of "you don't have to be >perfe= ct, you just have to be better than the other guy." Or "I don't have >to outr= un the bear, I just have to outrun you.") Interesting. I'll have to check that book out. You also raised a good point in your previous post about non-mages rising= to fill the ranks of the vacant mages during the war- both during and prior.= This sort of thing was very common- where officers would die and people would = get 'field' promotions, that might last (provided they had the scratch to pay= for their positions, or had enough influence working on their behalf). I'd da= resay that a lot of the Alphatian officers are probably very suitable (in most nations) during peacetime ("How much harm can they do?") but when the war= time rolls around, certain people in charge would probably do their best to fi= nd... other tasks... to occupy them, while allowing those with the ability to actually lead. = And the degree to which all of this sort of thing (promotions by merit, r= ather than privilege) goes on would vary greatly according to nation. I'd say t= hat Arogansa, for example, would have almost all of its officers of the "privileged" magic-using caste- and its forces might suffergreatly as a result- while Stonewall, for example, would probably have a very high proportion of non-magic using officers. >I know, I wasn't criticizing you on that - that wasn't my intent. Sorry = >if it came off that way. Not at all, didn't mean to sound as if I had taken offense. I was just pointing out that (as I know you are all to aware) that certain "official= " things happened before we got our collective hands in the mix, and a lot = (or at least some) of what we currently are doing is trying to justify things= =2E :) And it ain't easy, sometimes. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:45:39 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Undead/Entropy Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > Question: > Do people think it possible for an Undead being to reach Immortality in a > Sphere other than Entropy? > Say, if Brannart McGregor used the Radiance to become an Immortal in the > Sphere of Energy? > But, specifically, do you think it's possible for an Undead being to be > sponsored for, and achieve, Immortality in any of the Spheres, not just > Entropy? Yes, though probably they have some penalty similar to the one for non-preferred classes. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:43:01 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry I'm late on this topic again. I noticed that during the latest Alphatian/Un-Alphatian debate, the topic of magical heredity came up. I believe that the argument was brought up that commoners would probably not expect their offspring to be magic capable because the "magic" gene was recessive. This is not necessarily the case (in fact quite the opposite - especially given the Alpher tendancy to sleep around...even with mundaners...heck even the Empress did/does it) as I will try to explain below. Let's say that the magic gene is recessive and can be represented with an 'm'. All indviduals will get one such gene from their mother, and one from their father. Upper case Ms represent an allele that does not confer magic ability, while lower case ms represent an allele that does confer magic ability. Thus: Individuals with the 'mm' genotype are the only ones who are magic capable. Individuals with the 'MM' genotype are not magic capable. Individuals with the 'Mm' genotype are not magic capable, but have the capacity to pass that ability onto their offspring. Now mundaners would be any 'MM' or 'Mm' individuals, and nobody would be able to tell which was which just by looking at them. First the easy ones: An MM mating with an MM will always produce a mundaner. An mm mating with an mm will always produce an archaner. Now for the harder ones: Any archaner 'mm' mating with an 'MM' mundaner would produce mundane offspring...no exceptions. All of the offspring would be 'Mm'. Any archaner 'mm' mating with an 'Mm' mundaner has a 50/50 percent chance of producing either an archaner or mundaner offspring. M | m |---------- m| Mm | mm |---------- m| Mm | mm |---------- Furthermore, any mundainer offspring produced in such a coupling would in turn have the ability to produce archaner offspring. Any two Mm individuals who mate will have a 1(total mundaner) | 2(recessive archaner) | 1(total archaner) ratio of producing offspring. M | m |---------- M| MM | Mm |---------- m| Mm | mm |---------- This is a 75% chance of producing a mundaner (although 50% chance they will themselves be able to produce an archaner), and a 25% chance of producing an archaner. What does all of this mean (sorry for the Mendelian biology above)? I think it is very likely a common event for mundaners to have archaner offspring...especially if they (or one of their ancestors) has had trists with an archaner at some point. I think James raised the point that these archaner offspring would then be taken away from their mundaner parents, and raised in the Alphatian way...This is without a doubt. However, nothing forbids an archaner from frolicking with a mundaner...in fact there is quite a lot of evidence that this does happen in Alphatia (and happens quite easily). Who in Alphatia will tell the "master" how to behave with regards to his own slaves after all? Having gone through all of the above, let me say that I don't think the "magic" genetic process is quite that simple. It probably takes more than just one gene to make a mage (and not all of them recessive ones!). If all magic genes were recessive, then any offspring of two magic users would be a magic user...100% chance! This clearly does not happen...even in Alphatia. It is therefore even more likely that archaners will show up as offspring to mundaners (and less likely that all archaner offspring will be archaner). Just my 2 cents worth...or more... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:40:22 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity In-Reply-To: <20000505194301.20870.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Magic is hereditary? And here I thought it was all about the midichlorians ... Is this canon for Mystara? 'cause it rubs me the wrong way in a big, big way. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 19:09:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Undead/Entropy Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But, specifically, do you think it's possible for an Undead being to be > sponsored for, and achieve, Immortality in any of the Spheres, not just > Entropy? > Officially I'd have to say no , because IIrc undead cannot gain experience levels. However if it is a good yarn and holds to the spirit of Mystara, whilst flouting the 'canon' rules, I'm all for it! Damn! This is no fun, can I go back to being nasty to you? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000505124022.007da0a0@lby3.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 May 2000, Beau wrote: > Magic is hereditary? And here I thought it was all about the midichlorians > ... > Is this canon for Mystara? 'cause it rubs me the wrong way in a big, big way. > The history of Alphatia indicates that the potential for being a wizard is indeed genetic, at least in part. You still need training, but the ability to learn it at all seems to be genetic. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:03:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Magic is hereditary? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:01 05/05/2000 -0500, Ranma wrote: >The history of Alphatia indicates that the potential for being a wizard is >indeed genetic, at least in part. You still need training, but the >ability to learn it at all seems to be genetic. How so? (Again, I don't have any materials that include Alphatia.) Might it just be the presence of magic use at home that leads to young magic-users in turn? Monkey see, monkey do? In other words, is it nature or nurture? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:11:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: HW baddies (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >like, say, Ixion. Most of 'em are flighty selfish jerks, even the "Lawful" >ones, often - but they're like gods from the myths. And this is the interpretation of them that I like best :-) >You could be. I donno - do you hang out on the MMB as well? That's where >the discussion that led to that SoP thing occured. There's a Patrick on the >MMB, and I guess I always figured you and he were the same guy (Hmmmn. . >.but I've *never* seen you in the same room with him. Or with Batman, >either, by the way. . .Hmmmn. . .) Yeah, I'm on the MMB a lot. I think there's another Patrick there occasionally, so perhaps it was he. But yes, usually it's me over there :-) >>> My argument is not with the setting, it's with the impression that Ka >and his cronies can do no wrong and the HW is a really nice thing they're >doing. << >Replace "Ka" with "Eriadna" and "his" with "hers" and "the HW" with >"Alphatia" in the above sentance 8-). Well, there's that too.... I don't particularly object to Eriadna's change of heart--she's just been refused raising by her beloved son and I'm sure she's still haunted by the voice of her presumed-dead father and surrogate conscience. But that certainly shouldn't mean that all of Alphatia but Blackheart turns sweet with her :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >If 0.2% of Alphatians are 36th level wizards, than at least 15% of >Alphatian population is composed by wizards. Considering that they >cannot be more than 40% of the classed population, it will mean that >nearly 40% of the Alphatian are classed. >A similar figure can be obtained for the SC. >OTOH, the Glantrian figure shows that classed Glantrians are around >2.5%. Actually, now that I do some quick estimating (I don't remember where I got the 5 million figure, I think someone mentioned that recently) I'd say the total population of the empire before WotI should've been more like 7 million. That lowers the classed population of Alphatia to something more like 25-30% using your computations. As for the Savage Baronies, the numbers are comparable (this from the Savage Baronies box--I'm not sure if it's on the web-version), ranging from 25% (in Almarron and Gargona) to 35% classed (in Cimmaron). The coast as a whole is about 25% classed. >IMO, the non-classed population (normal men) should be at least 90%, >with a classed population which may range from 2% for, say, Darokin >(most people are tradesmen), to 10% for the Savage Coast (many >mercenaries and adventurers). Why? Not to be rude, but I honestly don't see any reason for this. Even 75% non-classed seems rather high to me when even the most civilized areas of the world are occasionally threatened by monsters and there are such clear benefits to entering the clergy. Based on the different canon sources we have I'd argue that, over all among humans, about 8% are fighters, 6% clerics, 5% thieves, and 3% magic-users. These numbers of course would be very different in areas where there's a strong genetic predilection toward magic-use (basically anywhere with a significant Alphatian population, including Ierendi and Glantri; Jaibul too) or cultural factors favoring or opposing different classes. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:23:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Alphatian Economy (was: Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >I'd say you're way off. The only aspect of 1800 society that wasn't >better for poor people was if that poor person was a slave. The >Alphatians don't treat their slaves particularly worse than those of 1800 >America, but the average poor person was rather better off in most >European societies than in Alphatia. He couldn't be enslaved, for one >thing. He couldn't simply be arbitrarily murdered by a nobleman. He >didn't have to save up a ludicrous amount of money in order to be free of >the control of someone else. (10,000 GP is the equivalent of nearly a >thousand years' wages for a laborer). While 1800 was not a wonderful time >to be a laborer, the average laborer had more freedom, more safety, and >more security than the lower classes of Alphatia, and better prospects of >improving himself. I disagree. For one thing, slaves were in about the same situation in both. There is no indication that non-slaves in Alphatia could be made into slaves, whereas, with slavery based on race in Europe and America, free blacks could be kidnapped and forced back into slavery (this happened sometimes in the USA at least, I dunno about Europe). I disagree about servants and freemen in Alphatia being worse off than in Europe or the US. A servant or freeman is not "under the control of someone else" any more than most workers of early industrial times. Servants and freemen generally worked in safer conditions (primarily agricultural or household labor) than their counterparts in RW factories did. Plus, the portions of the population who are Alphatian aristocracy (20-25% probably--a portion unheard-of in the RW) are generally better off than most of 1800's wealthy. patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:26:54 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Mystaran Economies MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I pretty much agree with what you've said here. I don't think there's reason to believe that servants are quite as oppressed as you imply, but that's neither here nor their. >Razud is a patron of "helping those who don't need help" (ok, actually >"helping the self-sufficient" - which seems like an odd thing). Korys is >the patron of prosperity. And, sure, the various temples of Korys and Razud >(though Raz always seemed more like a "pro-Aristo" Immortal - after all, in >Alphatia it's the aristos who don't need help) might work to protect >freemen enterprises from aristocratic meddling. And if the Alphatians cared >about religion, it might even be effective from time to time. yeah, it was Koryis I was thinking of. I think you're right, BTW, about Razud. And I'd argue that at least the Alphatian clerics (usually) care about religion. They're not a massive part of the aristocracy, but they're something :-) patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:01:16 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > How so? (Again, I don't have any materials that include Alphatia.) Might >it just be the presence of magic use at home that leads to young >magic-users in turn? Monkey see, monkey do? > In other words, is it nature or nurture? There is certainly evidence in the Alphatian materials that magic is at least partly hereditary, although I don't know where. Also, Champions of Mystara bears this out: "Born into powerful magic-using families, Jadugerya children are strongly encouraged to study the magical arts. An exceptionally high percentage of them have considerable talent for spell-casting." This doesn't mean that no non-Jadugeryas could be magic-users if they were given the opportunity, but there's certainly no indication that an exceptionaly high percentage of Sindhis have talent for magic-use. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? In-Reply-To: <098501bfb6d5$0e68c620$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:01 05/05/2000 -0700, Patrick wrote: >There is certainly evidence in the Alphatian materials that magic is at >least partly hereditary, although I don't know where. Also, Champions of >Mystara bears this out: "Born into powerful magic-using families, Jadugerya >children are strongly encouraged to study the magical arts. An >exceptionally high percentage of them have considerable talent for >spell-casting." Er, I don't see anything in that sentence that suggests anything beyond kids being "encouraged" to study magic. Is there more in the source material on Sind that says anything about orphaned kids being predisposed to magic or something? >This doesn't mean that no non-Jadugeryas could be >magic-users if they were given the opportunity, but there's certainly no >indication that an exceptionaly high percentage of Sindhis have talent for >magic-use. Even the ones with wizards in the family? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 23:16:42 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i see this like this: just as PC can change their original caracteristics score i think that a person born in a family where magic is highly present should and would be encouraged to "transfer" his predispositions toward intelligence. Maybe you would think it's cheap psychology but , a kid raised in a favourable environment would have more chance to developp magic talent later... Beau a �crit: > At 14:01 05/05/2000 -0700, Patrick wrote: > > >There is certainly evidence in the Alphatian materials that magic is at > >least partly hereditary, although I don't know where. Also, Champions of > >Mystara bears this out: "Born into powerful magic-using families, Jadugerya > >children are strongly encouraged to study the magical arts. An > >exceptionally high percentage of them have considerable talent for > >spell-casting." > > Er, I don't see anything in that sentence that suggests anything beyond > kids being "encouraged" to study magic. Is there more in the source > material on Sind that says anything about orphaned kids being predisposed > to magic or something? > > >This doesn't mean that no non-Jadugeryas could be > >magic-users if they were given the opportunity, but there's certainly no > >indication that an exceptionaly high percentage of Sindhis have talent for > >magic-use. > > Even the ones with wizards in the family? > > BEAU > http://www.LBY3.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:30:04 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Er, I don't see anything in that sentence that suggests anything beyond >kids being "encouraged" to study magic. Is there more in the source >material on Sind that says anything about orphaned kids being predisposed >to magic or something? Well, in the case of Sind orphans would be adopted into a family of the same caste, so there's really no basis to compare. No, it doesn't specifically say that it's genetic, but with this evidence, along with the evidence in the Alphatian, Glantrian (the d'Ambrevilles were among the most talented spellcasters in Laterre--presumably this was genetic), and Ierendi material (Ierendi is, after all, the only country with a subculture in which the entire human population is made up of magic-users) there's a very strong indication that genetics plays at least some role in magical ability (and there is definite proof that not everyone can cast spells). >>This doesn't mean that no non-Jadugeryas could be >>magic-users if they were given the opportunity, but there's certainly no >>indication that an exceptionaly high percentage of Sindhis have talent for >>magic-use. > > Even the ones with wizards in the family? Well, actually, in Jaibul, the only area of Sind that operates outside the caste system, nearly 50% of the population is made up of magic-users. That kind of rate certainly implies that the families of Jaibul are pre-disposed to magic-use (especially since most of the non-mages are slaves or bandits). Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? In-Reply-To: <09b701bfb6d9$1554ca20$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:30 05/05/2000 -0700, Patrick wrote: >(and >there is definite proof that not everyone can cast spells). What's that proof? I'm not busting your chops; I don't have access to a lot of the older material -- although I'm working Ebay as hard as I can to rectify the situation -- and I'm curious to see what has been written down about this subject. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:44:08 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > What's that proof? Ericall and Mariella are probably the most famous examples: children of Eriadna and the fighter Torenal, they have no magical ability despite repeated attempts from a very young age to train them. Also, the sons of Etienne and Catharine (though this example doesn't quite fit with the idea that magic use is hereditary) are both without magical ability, leading to the various problems of succession in Nouvelle Averoigne. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:02:31 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, 5 May 2000, Beau wrote: > Magic is hereditary? And here I thought it was all about the midichlorians > ... > Is this canon for Mystara? 'cause it rubs me the wrong way in a big, big way. > Ahhh... IIRC Alphatian magic is supposed to be this way (don't have DotE handy at the moment, but I think this is canon. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure)...which would also tend to imply that some Glantrian magic (Flaemish) would also work in this way. For the rest of Mystara, whether or not magic is hereditary, is not specified. My take is that only Alpher magic is hereditary. Since Alphers are supposed to be aliens, this should not effect the rest of the planet. What rubs me the wrong way is that magic heredity would be so simple as to be controlled by a single gene. I think I have shown in my previous post, that this is highly unlikely. [Therefore Alphatian children born of mundaners do indeed, have the capacity to be archaners. And vica versa.] A single recessive magic gene can not be the cause of magic ability we see in Alphatia...nor can multiple recessive genes. The most likely cause are several multiple recessive genes working together with a few dominant genes. This in effect (at least as far as game mechanics are concerned) should relegate Alphatian magic heredity to nothing more than chance IMO. Unless that is you want to work out some pretty harry Mendelian genetics (which I'm all for), but which I don't think will add anything to the game. The point of all of this was that some on this list made the argument that Alphatian commoners could not have archane children. I don't think that is right. I was hoping to illustrate that Alphatian magic could be heretable, and still allow for anyone (born to either mundaner or archaner) to be a magic user (or non-magic user). Sorry for the confusion (hope that clears it up). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:07:21 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii By the way...I realize that I forgot to include one of the Mendelian Squares. I think it was the cross for 'MM' mundaner and 'Mm' mundaner. M | m |---------- M| MM | Mm |---------- M| MM | Mm |---------- In this case although all offspring are considered to be mundaners, 50% have the ability to produce viable arcaners. No more squares...I promise. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Magic is hereditary? > Magic is a hereditary trait among the Alphatians, but not nessissarily outside Alphatia. As for the current debate over it, lets just say DotE "strongly implies" in several places that magic is a hereditary trait; I know for an absolute fact that I read something that explicitly said that the trait for magic is hereditary among the Alphatians (but, thus, it was unclear with regard to non-Alphatians - but other examples people are using tend to bear out that it applies among many non-Alphatians also. Note that if it's simply a case of "monkey see, monkey do"/nurture, then some of these problems being pointed out by people in their examples wouldn't exist, because surely these people would want their children to learn magic, and, especially in Alphatia, these children have a very, *very* strong incentive to do so if they possibly can), but after a quick look for it in the PWAs (where I thought it was, and where it still might be, because, like I said, it was a quick check), I haven't found it yet. I'm kind of low on time at the moment, and, to be frank, I'm a bit exausted looking up references at the moment, so: 1) Either you can take my word on the fact that it says that somewhere in "canon", but since *obviously* I haven't done anything to earn anyone's trust on these kinds of things, then: 2) Someone else could try and find it today. If no one does, the task will (as usual) fall back into my hands, and I'll try my best to find the quote, and give you source, page number, paragraph, and exact phrasing some time this weekend when I can get around to it. If I don't, mail me a little reminder on monday (jruhlconob@sprynet.com), and I'll be sure to find it for you. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Now mundaners would be any 'MM' or 'Mm' individuals, and nobody would be able to tell which was which just by looking at them. << Everything you said is spot on - starting from a position of relative "random" distribution among the population. But, as I pointed out later, this trait (Mm) would tend to disapear over time, because Alphatia's population is not randomly distributed, and "selects" for MM individuals, removing them from one part of the population and putting them in the other part. So, over 2,000 years of generations selecting this trait and putting it in one pile, it would tend to be found less and less frequently in the other pile. Sure, with aristos going around raping mundaners, from time to time Mm children will be born a a result, but some of that will be lost as parent A (Mm) breeds with parent B (MM) and has child C (MM) instead of possible child D (Mm). Same thing might happen if the society in question selected leaders on the basis of blond hair - eventually you wouldn't find blond haired children being born among the "non-blondhairs", and *over* *time*, it would become decreasingly likely that matings between a blond and "non-blondhair" would produce a blond offspring, because the trait for blond hair would become decreasingly common among the "non-blondhairs", and the pairings of needed genes less likely. With *some* sleeping around going on (sure there's some, but how many are going down sleeping among dirty, smelly peasants who "age-fast", becoming crones before their time? Yes, some, to be true, but mostly it'd be among the "house ni***r" portion of the population, or a few "chance encounters" in a lifetime, at most, for the vast majoirity of mundainers - other than that, aristocrats will tend *sharply* to have "long term" or even "serial" relationships with each other - sure they sleep around, but *mostly* among themselves, and mundaners will have strong tendencies to breed among themselves. It'd be nothing like a random distribution of pairings, and nothing like a random distribution of offspring, too - especially since people might tend to not be willing to raise or have children that are the result of certain types of experiences, if you know what I mean {note that I'm not condoning such things, I'm just saying} - Eriadna being a very enlightened sort, I'd imagine). Take an example that, admittedly, is more "spatial" than "social" but would have some similar ramifications. Using the "blond" example again, what are the odds that two Swedish parents will have a blond haired child? Pretty good - not all Swedes are blond, but the trait is pretty frequent. What are the odds that two Cantonese parents will have a blond child? Effectively nil. What are the odds that a Swedish parent mating with a Cantonese parent will have a blond child? Very low. Ok, but what if that child mates with a Swede later in life? Ok, now it's more likely they'll have a blond child. But what if that child mates with a Cantonese parent? Again, very very unlikely. And what's the chance of that child, if it mates with a Swede, of having a blond child? Very unlikely. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:36:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Undead/Entropy Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to this question so far, and invite any who haven't but have something to share on the subject to do so. I'll possibly have some replies/further questions in a bit. First I do have to answer one question, though: > > Damn! This is no fun, can I go back to being nasty to you? > You can, but if you do you'll have to report to the Pebbles of Desperation. (Gah! Now someone's going to ask "what are the Pebbles of Desperation" and "where are the Pebbles of Desperation" and "please define the Pebbles of Desperation"! Before you do, it's in Gaz 10, Orks of Thar, "Thar's Manual of Good Conduct, p.18, under "getting nasty". Look it up yourself. 8-)~ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>Now mundaners would be any 'MM' or 'Mm' individuals, and nobody would be able to tell which was which just by looking at them. << >>Everything you said is spot on - starting from a position of relative "random" distribution among the population. But, as I pointed out later, this trait (Mm) would tend to disapear over time, because Alphatia's population is not randomly distributed, and "selects" for MM individuals, removing them from one part of the population and putting them in the other part. << Ahh, true. But I'm not convinced that seperation of class leads directly to seperation of bedchamber partners...not by a long shot. >> So, over 2,000 years of generations selecting this trait and putting it in one pile, it would tend to be found less and less frequently in the other pile. Sure, with aristos going around raping mundaners, from time to time Mm children will be born a a result, but some of that will be lost as parent A (Mm) breeds with parent B (MM) and has child C (MM) instead of possible child D (Mm). Same thing might happen if the society in question selected leaders on the basis of blond hair - eventually you wouldn't find blond haired children being born among the "non-blondhairs", and *over* *time*, it would become decreasingly likely that matings between a blond and "non-blondhair" would produce a blond offspring, because the trait for blond hair would become decreasingly common among the "non-blondhairs", and the pairings of needed genes less likely. With *some* sleeping around going on (sure there's some, but how many are going down sleeping among dirty, smelly peasants who "age-fast", becoming crones before their time? Yes, some, to be true, but mostly it'd be among the "house ni***r" portion of the population, or a few "chance encounters" in a lifetime, at most, for the vast majoirity of mundainers - other than that, aristocrats will tend *sharply* to have "long term" or even "serial" relationships with each other - sure they sleep around, but *mostly* among themselves, and mundaners will have strong tendencies to breed among themselves. It'd be nothing like a random distribution of pairings, and nothing like a random distribution of offspring, too - especially since people might tend to not be willing to raise or have children that are the result of certain types of experiences, if you know what I mean {note that I'm not condoning such things, I'm just saying} - Eriadna being a very enlightened sort, I'd imagine). << This is again true, but there is yet one other underlying issue to consider...the mating of mm and mm individuals. If Alphatian heredity were based on a single (or even multiple) recessive genes, then all offspring produced by mages would be mages...period. Let's take the blue eyed example. Two people who have blue eyes produce a child...that child will (no and, ifs, or buts about it) have blue eyes. [By the way, blue eyes are one of those nifty single recessive genes]. Two people with brown eyes may produce either brown eyed offspring, or blue eyed offspring depending upon whether or not they are heterogenious for brown eyes (ie Bb). Magic in Alphatia just doesn't work this way...just because two mages mate and have offspring, does not mean that the offspring will be a mage. The chances are higher, no doubt, but this impleis a more complex method of genetic inheritance. >> Take an example that, admittedly, is more "spatial" than "social" but would have some similar ramifications. Using the "blond" example again, what are the odds that two Swedish parents will have a blond haired child? Pretty good - not all Swedes are blond, but the trait is pretty frequent. What are the odds that two Cantonese parents will have a blond child? Effectively nil. What are the odds that a Swedish parent mating with a Cantonese parent will have a blond child? Very low. Ok, but what if that child mates with a Swede later in life? Ok, now it's more likely they'll have a blond child. But what if that child mates with a Cantonese parent? Again, very very unlikely. And what's the chance of that child, if it mates with a Swede, of having a blond child? Very unlikely. << Actually the chances may not be that unlikely. It just depends on the number of genes involved. Hair and eyes both have relatively few numbers of genes involved (note I said relatively) which is exactly why we know so much about them. In fact the percentages for these chances can be worked out, which was what I tried to do in my original post. The spatial example above maybe doesn't work so well for Alphatia because both arcane and mundane Alphatians have easy access to one another. Consider this. Who produces more offspring in Alphatia? Mundaners or arcaners? My bet is the mundaners. All it would take is one dilliance by an arcaner to get those magic genes in the mundane population, and after 2000 years it would be pretty hard to get it back out again. Remember that there is no selection against Mms in the Alpher pop (you may have a point for selection against mms), but in order to insure that mages don't crop up in mundaner pops, all of the Mms need to be removed from the equation. I just don't see how they are. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:09:27 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Alphatian magic heredity, terms for those who can use magic or not In-Reply-To: <20000505230912.20567.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:09 05/05/2000 -0700, John Calvin wrote: >Ahh, true. But I'm not convinced that seperation of class leads directly to seperation >of bedchamber partners...not by a long shot. You leave Thomas Jefferson out of this, you! And, yeah, I'd know the answer to this if, darn it, I would just hop in my time machine and ride back to the late 1980s and buy the original material (I'm so lazy that way), but are "arcaner" and "mundaner" terms that the Alphatians use? Being a Harry Potter fan (the ability to use magic, and having ancestors who do or don't, all get their own terms in the books), I've been thinking about this recently in preparation for my fall Glantri campaign, which will center around the GSoM and such language will inevitably get used. So, are such terms common on Mystara? Any examples? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac: Remembering The Past MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 May 2000 13:25:30 +0200 Caroletti writes: > > > > You say that I should observe and learn from how things > are handled in the > > Skothar group, to teach me compromise and cooperation. Well, > members of the > > Skothar group are on this list - they can correct me if I'm being > > misleading, and one can check the mail archives of that group to > see if > > what I'll say now is true or false. > > I may step in on the defense of the Masked Man...I mean, Evil > Porphy. > In the Skothar team, at least till now, he has behaved as he was > saying up here... I'd also like to step in and say that I, personally, have always found James to be fun to work with (even when we do disagree). His comments, though often part of his trademarked "ranting screeds", have almost always been helpful and occasionally inspiring to me both on the MA team, and also on my Darokin work. To put this into perspective, I am a member of the Alphatian Sea almanac team. (though if I were Grand High Emperor of All Things Mystaran, NACE would be falling into a bloody civil war, if only just to make things more interesting. Oh well, I guess I'll just take it out on poor little Ierendi. So quiet and peaceful...) Aaron Nowack ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ahh, true. But I'm not convinced that seperation of class leads directly to seperation > of bedchamber partners...not by a long shot. > Ok. And your subsiquent point on this was, at least for me, at least partially convincing (actually it was strongly convincing on a number of levels, but partially convincing on the above one): > This is again true, but there is yet one other underlying issue to consider...the mating > of mm and mm individuals. If Alphatian heredity were based on a single (or even > multiple) recessive genes, then all offspring produced by mages would be mages...period. > Very true - and since the proportion of mages has been declining for some time (since Landfall, basically), one can probably conclude that, combined with your first statement, "magical genetics" is a bit more complecated than reliance on a single gene. But I was using "game genetics" (the simple-simon variety), because, frankly, that about exausts my level of expertise on the subject (ok, so I understand what you're talking about in the below, but I'm a far cry from a geneticist or even biologist.) > Magic in Alphatia just doesn't work this way...just because two mages mate and have > offspring, does not mean that the offspring will be a mage. The chances are higher, no > doubt, but this impleis a more complex method of genetic inheritance. > Right. Point taken. > > The spatial example above maybe doesn't work so well for Alphatia because both arcane and > mundane Alphatians have easy access to one another. > True, but there's a social difference. > Consider this. Who produces more > offspring in Alphatia? Mundaners or arcaners? My bet is the mundaners. > I'd agree with that, and that's one of the factors I'd credit with the continual decline in the proportion of spellcasters among the populaton (from roughly 50% around Landfall to roughly 20% "today") - the aristocrats have (generally) fewer children, possibly not even self-replicating their population (they make up for this in part by the fact that the higher level ones tend to have magically-extended lifespans. Obviously the typical 1st-3rd level ones wouldn't be extending their lives much beyond normal, but the others would). Slaves don't generally reproduce at replacement levels, so that leaves the Servants/Freemen/Gentry. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatian magic heredity,terms for those who can use magic or not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (I'm so lazy that way), but are "arcaner" and "mundaner" terms that the > Alphatians use? > No, probably not (except perhaps as slang), but they're convenient distinctions when we're babbling about the topic OOC. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mystaran Economies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I pretty much agree with what you've said here. I don't think there's > reason to believe that servants are quite as oppressed as you imply, but > that's neither here nor their. > Well, they might not be. I was mainly pointing out why I thought that Alphatia wasn't the "entreprenureal meritocracy" it is sometimes portrayed as, and the obsticles that they (the servators et al) likely face, which sometimes people don't seem to take into consideration or waive off as minimal and virtually unimportant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 03:52:04 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Alphatian magic heredity,terms for those who can use magic or not Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Actually, both these terms originated in Glantri, but they may very well have reached into Alphatian slang. > > (I'm so lazy that way), but are "arcaner" and "mundaner" terms that the > > Alphatians use? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 02:00:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: "Mystaran stores". Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 May 2000 01:21:24 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > >And Stalker also wrote, about Brau's msg: >> Yes, except they won't deal with people outside the US. I've been trying talk to WOTC about this for over a month, but so far they keep refusing to answer my mails... :( >> >> - An annoyed Stalker of Alphatia... > >=> Why don't they sell us? Hum... maybe it's not worth. But I'd like to. >And there are 3 more brazilians in this list, as an example. They wrote >me offline. Cool people. We DO have a market here, Wizards! > On DND-L I recently posted a message saying that for over a month the WOTC had refused to answer my mail. The result was that Keith Strohm said that he'd make sure the message got through himself and guess what.. I got a message from them just a few days later - it seems that they don't post abroad (except to the UK and a few select other nations, I don't remember because it still excluded me) because they want a good delivery service, that's what they said anyway. Personally I think that it's a disappointing answer since I don't care if my stuff arrives in two or four weeks - I'm glad to get it at all! But I don't care anymore because the gazetteers and stuff I was interested is no longer on the WOTC store :( - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 02:26:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac: Remembering The Past Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 May 2000 13:25:30 Caroletti wrote: >> >> You say that I should observe and learn from how things are handled in the >> Skothar group, to teach me compromise and cooperation. Well, members of the >> Skothar group are on this list - they can correct me if I'm being >> misleading, and one can check the mail archives of that group to see if >> what I'll say now is true or false. > >I may step in on the defense of the Masked Man...I mean, Evil Porphy. >In the Skothar team, at least till now, he has behaved as he was >saying up here...Maybe I could not be the best person to defend him >(just see my signature)... Well, allow an evil, old, battered Alphatian to share his views then :) I agree with what you say here. James hasn't posted much to the Skothar group (or else I've missed a lot), but then not many of us have - I freely admit that I'm probably the biggest sinner of all, but then again, what did you expect from an Alphatian... ;) What I've seen on the Skothar group (from anyone, not just James) has been good and productive stuff. I may not agree with all of it (I won't give anything away here, as I'm sure the involved people remember my one concern) but so far the material discussed and posted has been creative and inspiring - and no flames anywhere. - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 21:55:22 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-05 1:17:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Remember, common soldiers (but not spellcasting ones) have the status of Servants ("minions"), officers have the status of Freemen (not even Gentry), while Aristocrats who are military officers have the status of Lords, which is several social degrees up from the status of any fighter-officer. >> Are no officers Gentry? I would certainly think that a mundaner general would have to be in that social class. As I see it, the one place where the social distinctions get a little iffy is the relationship between Gentry (rich mundaners) and Aristocrats (poor arcaners). While the Aristos technically outrank the Gentry, there seem to be a number of clues suggesting that the Gentry may actually have some advantages over the poorer Aristos. First off, even in Alphatia money is power -- and Gentry usually make a point of paying off and flattering the local lords so that they will have their support if a lesser Aristo tries to make trouble for them. To take an extreme example, here is how I would picture conflicts between General Torenal and a poor Aristocrat being handled. Aristocrat insults Torenal: Torenal tells Eriadna, who decides whether to laugh it off or fry the Aristo. Torenal insults Aristo: Aristo demands Torenal's execution. Eriadna chews out Torenal and then orders him to apologize and then thank the Aristo for accepting his apology. Eriadna then proceeds on the assumption that the Aristo indeed accepted the apology and dismisses the case. If the Aristo presses the point, he could find that Eriadna decides that the Aristo has insulted her and is reacting accordingly.... But one standard rule would be that no mundaner gets anywhere without friends in high places -- mundaners without Lords for patrons will find themselves financially ruined at best or literally fried at worst. But friends of the emperor/empress can pretty much do as they please even if they are not arcaners. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 21:01:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Are no officers Gentry? I would certainly think that a mundaner general > would have to be in that social class. > Some might be for other reasons (I.E. some guy with 10,000 big ones in the bank), but none are defined as Gentry simply because of their rank - or at least not per DotE. Actually, that came as a surprise to even me, but I read it over twice to make sure. Again, though, the caviat: away from the mainland and Bellissaria, where the "caste distinctions" matter less, mundaner Generals are probably more common and more respected (most likely they'd be equivilent to Lords, IMO). > As I see it, the one place where the social distinctions get a little iffy is > the relationship between Gentry (rich mundaners) and Aristocrats (poor > arcaners). > Point is, though, there's no point in being an Aristocrat if you're treated as an underling by a Commoner - the whole social structure, IMO, seems to fall apart if that becomes the case. I mean, the kinds of thing an officer can (and does) say to a soldier would be defined as criminal Insolence if said by a mundaner officer to an Aristocrat subordinate, for one thing. Sure, someone "higher up on the chain of nobility" can intervene, but that sort of thing would Not Be Looked Upon Aprovingly by the Aristocracy in general ("just what's going on here, anyhow?") You're just not really an Aristocrat, and the society's hierarchy becomes. . .odd at best. . .if there are *too* many "exceptions". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 23:03:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-05 10:04:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Some might be for other reasons (I.E. some guy with 10,000 big ones in the bank), but none are defined as Gentry simply because of their rank - or at least not per DotE. Actually, that came as a surprise to even me, but I read it over twice to make sure. >> No, but I could see it working the other way around -- thus, an officer who manages to earn enough money (through plunder or lordly patronage -- or, better yet, both) to promote himself to the Gentry could advance all the way to the top in the military, but a Freeman would eventually be stuck somewhere in the low-middle officer ranks. Of course, one side effect of this system is that it could corrupt Alphatian military beyond what has already been suggested, as military ability would not be the sole criterion by which an officer would acquire the wealth and status needed for promotion to high rank. It would be possible for an enlightened emperor or empress to see and appreciate the talent of his or her best officers and reward them appropriately, but it would be all too easy for an officer to be made a general just because an Alphatian queen thinks he is great in bed, or for an officer on the frontier to arrange things so that he got many opportunities for plunder even if there is little or no military justification for the resulting strategy. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 23:03:40 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect that the heredity of magic talent must be more complicated than a single pair of Mendelian genes, as I can cite several cases in Gaz 3 where two arcaners produced mundaner offspring with absolutely no talent for magic. On the other hand, the children of Torenal and Eriadna seem to support the Mendelian recessive theory quite well. It is possible that there are multiple genes at work, with the recessive Alphatian gene being the one at work among (most) Alphatians but other genes having their effects as well. But to answer the question about which sources cite magical talent as hereditary -- there are some fairly direct statements to that effect in Gaz 3 (Glantri) and DotE (Alphatia/Thyatis). Furthermore, both works feature children of mages who are of average or better intelligence and have both strong motivation and limitless opportunity to learn magic but who are completely unable to do so -- and thus they turn to mundane careers, becoming fighters or rogues. All three children of Torenal and Eriadna are mundaners (including Ericall), as are Roderick von Drachenfels (younger son of Prince Jaggar) and both of Prince Etienne's children -- and there is no evidence that any of these people are lazy or stupid (except possibly for Ericall....). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 20:36:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >-- and there is no evidence that any of these people are lazy or stupid >(except possibly for Ericall....). Oh, poor Ericall. He may be stupid, but he's good people :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 20:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: "Mystaran stores". MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >On DND-L I recently posted a message saying that for over a month the WOTC had refused to answer my mail. The result was that Keith Strohm said that he'd make sure the message got through himself and guess what.. I got a message from them just a few days later - it seems that they don't post abroad (except to the UK and a few select other nations, I don't remember because it still excluded me) because they want a good delivery service, that's what they said anyway. Personally I think that it's a disappointing answer since I don't care if my stuff arrives in two or four weeks - I'm glad to get it at all! But I don't care anymore because the gazetteers and stuff I was interested is no longer on the WOTC store :( > > - The Stalker of Alphatia I feel bad saying this, but they're actually still in stock, they've just moved to a different page. http://store.wizards.com/product/TSR_LastCall.htm According to that page and popular rumor, anything unsold as of May 31 will be destroyed. I don't know why they'd rather destroy the stuff than sell it, but perhaps you can still change their minds in the next 4 weeks :-) patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 22:59:35 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Just saw "Gladiator" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And I have to say, I'm glad there's a few nations betwixt Thyatis and the country that matters ... BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:57:03 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "agathokles@libero.it" Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20>IMO,=20the=20non-classed=20population=20(normal=20men)=20should=20be= =20at=20least=2090%,=0D=0A>=20>with=20a=20classed=20population=20which=20= may=20range=20from=202%=20for,=20say,=20Darokin=0D=0A>=20>(most=20people=20= are=20tradesmen),=20to=2010%=20for=20the=20Savage=20Coast=20(many=0D=0A>=20= >mercenaries=20and=20adventurers).=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=20Why?=20=20= Not=20to=20be=20rude,=20but=20I=20honestly=20don't=20see=20any=20reason=20= for=20this.=20=0D=0AEven=0D=0A>=2075%=20non-classed=20seems=20rather=20hi= gh=20to=20me=20when=20even=20the=20most=20civilized=0D=0Aareas=0D=0A>=20o= f=20the=20world=20are=20occasionally=20threatened=20by=20monsters=20and=20= there=20are=0D=0Asuch=0D=0A>=20clear=20benefits=20to=20entering=20the=20c= lergy.=20=20Based=20on=20the=20different=20canon=0D=0Asources=0D=0A>=20we= =20have=20I'd=20argue=20that,=20over=20all=20among=20humans,=20about=208%= =20are=20fighters,=0D=0A6%=0D=0A>=20clerics,=205%=20thieves,=20and=203%=20= magic-users.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=20These=20numbers=20of=20course=20would=20b= e=20very=20different=20in=20areas=20where=20there's=0D=0Aa=0D=0A>=20stron= g=20genetic=20predilection=20toward=20magic-use=20(basically=20anywhere=20= with=0D=0Aa=0D=0A>=20significant=20Alphatian=20population,=20including=20= Ierendi=20and=20Glantri;=0D=0AJaibul=20too)=0D=0A>=20or=20cultural=20fact= ors=20favoring=20or=20opposing=20different=20classes.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A=0D=0A= Actually=20the=202-10%=20range=20does=20not=20came=20from=20my=20personal= =20preferencies,=20I=0D=0Ajust=20took=20it=20from=20different=20(and=20no= t=20coherent)=20AD&D=20sources.=20The=20DM's=0D=0Ahandbook=20gives=20the=20= lower=20figure,=20while=20the=20High=20level=20campaign=20gives=20the=0D=0A= higher=20one.=0D=0A=0D=0AAlso,=20IMO=20just=20fighting=20the=20occasional= =20monster=20or=20entering=20the=20clergy=0D=0Adoesn't=20grant=20a=20clas= s.=20Even=20being=20recruited=20into=20an=20army=20and=20fighting=20in=0D= =0Aa=20battle=20does=20not.=20One=20must=20be=20an=20adventurer,=20or=20a= t=20least=20receive=20enough=0D=0Atraining=20(say,=20graduating=20at=20th= e=20great=20school=20of=20magic).=0D=0AMost=20people=20are=20required=20t= o=20have=20a=20"normal"=20job=20in=20order=20to=20survive,=20so=0D=0Athey= =20don't=20have=20the=20time=20to=20pursue=20an=20adventuring=20career.=0D= =0A=0D=0AOTOH,=20I=20don't=20find=20especially=20justifiable=20the=20exis= tance=20of=20a=20body=20of=0D=0Anobility=20including=2020%=20of=20the=20p= opulation=20(as=20it=20would=20be=20in=20Alphatia=20if=0D=0Aactually=2020= %=20of=20the=20population=20was=20composed=20of=20spellcasters).=0D=0A=0D= =0A=09Giampaolo=20Agosta=0A=0A= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 01:17:26 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Actually the 2-10% range does not came from my personal preferencies, I >just took it from different (and not coherent) AD&D sources. The DM's >handbook gives the lower figure, while the High level campaign gives the >higher one. I'm not very familiar with the other AD&D worlds, but isn't Mystara the most magic-rich of them? IMO those numbers might work for Greyhawk, Krynn, or FR (again, I know almost nothing of these settings, so I could be very wrong) but I like the prevalence of adventurers in Mystara, even if most adventure only in their spare time. >Also, IMO just fighting the occasional monster or entering the clergy >doesn't grant a class. Even being recruited into an army and fighting in >a battle does not. One must be an adventurer, or at least receive enough >training (say, graduating at the great school of magic). >Most people are required to have a "normal" job in order to survive, so >they don't have the time to pursue an adventuring career. Well, even though I know this isn't what you meant, I completely agree with the 2% estimation if graduation from the Great School of Magic (ninth level magic-user) is the level you're counting as an adventurer :-) >OTOH, I don't find especially justifiable the existance of a body of >nobility including 20% of the population (as it would be in Alphatia if >actually 20% of the population was composed of spellcasters). Well, with enough magic that's certainly possible. Well over 20% of the population of modern Europe and North America live better than the average Alphatian noble. I know their magic isn't quite enough to replicate RW technology, but remember that Old Alphatia didn't need agriculture at all--magic provided all their needs. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 10:59:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not very familiar with the other AD&D worlds, but isn't Mystara the most > magic-rich of them? IMO those numbers might work for Greyhawk, Krynn, or FR > (again, I know almost nothing of these settings, so I could be very wrong) > but I like the prevalence of adventurers in Mystara, even if most adventure > only in their spare time. I think the Realms is the most magic intensive AD&D world - the place doesn't have anything like the Thousand Wizards of Alphatia (though a few Realms kingdoms approach the Big A in Uberness) but you can barely walk down a village street without bumping into some sort of magical effect. (usually placed there by a 45th level wizard 5000 years ago). Birthright is probably the least magic/adventurer intensive... the concept of the Great Unwashed is quite important in Cerilia. Just my opinion anyway... Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:21:05 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > I agree that a world without evils is no fun for adveturing (although i > prefer my villains to look more like Hel, Eriadna, and Clan Ellerovyn than > Snidely Whiplash or Ludwig von Hendriks), but I disagree that the evils > that exist throughout Mystara should simply be winked at as historical > morality. << Has anybody thought that Ludwig von Hendriks is none other than Dick Dastardly??? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 15:51:31 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: deity-Immortal conversion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I recently acquired the Priest Spell Compendiums, and I'm working on converting them to OD&D terms. The compendiums contain spells restricted to a specific deity, and I want to assign these spells to specific Immortals with similiar fields of interest. However, as I'm not completely familiar with the background of some of these campaign worlds, I got stuck with some deities for which I couldn'f find Immortal equivalents. I'd appreciate it if anyone could give suggestions for equivalents for the following deities: Forgotten Realms: Eillistraee Jergal Kelemvor Kossuth Moander Shaundakul Greyhawk: Boccob Celestian St. Cuthbert Ehlonna Fharlanghn Heironeous Iggwilv Istus Wee Jas --Thanks ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 08:03:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is a site with info on Greyhawk dieties http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/gods/ --- Eyal Fleminger wrote: > I recently acquired the Priest Spell Compendiums, and I'm working on > converting them to OD&D terms. The compendiums contain spells restricted to > a specific deity, and I want to assign these spells to specific Immortals > with similiar fields of interest. However, as I'm not completely familiar > with the background of some of these campaign worlds, I got stuck with some > deities for which I couldn'f find Immortal equivalents. I'd appreciate it if > anyone could give suggestions for equivalents for the following deities: > > Forgotten Realms: > Eillistraee > Jergal > Kelemvor > Kossuth > Moander > Shaundakul > > Greyhawk: > Boccob > Celestian > St. Cuthbert > Ehlonna > Fharlanghn > Heironeous > Iggwilv > Istus > Wee Jas > > --Thanks > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:05:25 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 6:15:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scarole@TIN.IT writes: << Has anybody thought that Ludwig von Hendriks is none other than Dick Dastardly??? >> It doesn't work -- Bargle is definitely a human and not a lupin. What happened to Muttly? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:05:24 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 3:57:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << OTOH, I don't find especially justifiable the existance of a body of nobility including 20% of the population (as it would be in Alphatia if actually 20% of the population was composed of spellcasters). >> But keep in mind that Alphatian Aristocrats aren't nobles -- they have no titles or land, and they still have last names (like Servants and Freemen but unlike Gentry and Lords). Their only real "noble" perk seems to be the ability to push around poor mundaners -- and I can think of many examples in both Mystara and the real world where people who were definitely not of the nobility had similar privileges. As for class breakdowns, I think that Gaz 7 and the Savage Coast material give Mystara-specific class breakdowns and percentages of the population that have classes -- I would use these figures in preference to any material from more generic sources. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 08:19:51 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Try this site for Forgotten Realms http://www.math.auth.gr/~bchr/worlds.html --- Eyal Fleminger wrote: > I recently acquired the Priest Spell Compendiums, and I'm working on > converting them to OD&D terms. The compendiums contain spells restricted to > a specific deity, and I want to assign these spells to specific Immortals > with similiar fields of interest. However, as I'm not completely familiar > with the background of some of these campaign worlds, I got stuck with some > deities for which I couldn'f find Immortal equivalents. I'd appreciate it if > anyone could give suggestions for equivalents for the following deities: > > Forgotten Realms: > Eillistraee > Jergal > Kelemvor > Kossuth > Moander > Shaundakul > > Greyhawk: > Boccob > Celestian > St. Cuthbert > Ehlonna > Fharlanghn > Heironeous > Iggwilv > Istus > Wee Jas > > --Thanks > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 10:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Actually the 2-10% range does not came from my personal preferencies, I just took it from different (and not coherent) AD&D sources. The DM's handbook gives the lower figure, while the High level campaign gives the higher one. << Well, the problem with putting too much weight on those figures is that TSR has never published a game setting that follows them (or anything near to following the "demography chart" of levels found in High Level Campaigns). So I kind of look at them with a jaundiced eye, myself. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:52:43 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > I'm not very familiar with the other AD&D worlds, but isn't Mystara the most > magic-rich of them? IMO those numbers might work for Greyhawk, Krynn, or FR > (again, I know almost nothing of these settings, so I could be very wrong) > but I like the prevalence of adventurers in Mystara, even if most adventure > only in their spare time. > People adventuring "in their spare time" seems much like "ierendi tourism industry". Also, the average middle-age peasant or town labourer didn't enjoyed much spare time. Also, there must be a difference between "magic-rich" and "munchkin" ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:37:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Undead/Entropy Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First an apology. I would have responded to those scurrilous accusations that accused me of slander, liable and being an agent of a foreign power in regards to Glantri, but I had ISP problems :( Lets just assume the constabulary got to me before I could reply! ;) Anyway, back to the question in hand. James Ruhland wrote: > I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to this question so far, and > invite any who haven't but have something to share on the subject to do so. O.K. as you're extending an invitation, I'll pass on my two cents. As far as the question of whether an Undead form could reach Immortality in any other Sphere apart from Entropy goes (except by using the Radiance that is), I would assume that it would depend on the personality of the undead form. If the undead form was malevolent in nature (as most undead are), then I would definitely assume that the only way for them to achieve Immortality is in the Sphere of Entropy. However, if the undeads personality is such that he is more of a benign nature (e.g. Lord Zemiros Sulescu in Karameikos), then I can't see why not. On the other hand, I can't remember reading anywhere that Karaash, Wogar, or the Shining One were particularly benevolent, so maybe my reasoning is flawed?? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:44:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > Well, with enough magic that's certainly possible. Well over 20% of the > population of modern Europe and North America live better than the average > Alphatian noble. I know their magic isn't quite enough to replicate RW > technology, but remember that Old Alphatia didn't need agriculture at > all--magic provided all their needs. > Even so, the modern equivalent of Aristocracy (political class + capitalists + top management) doesn't reach 20% of the population. Old Alphatia isn't a good example - magically, modern Alphatia has just a fraction of the power of Old Alphatia: IMO, it's like comparing modern Europe/America with Industrial revolution-age countries. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:53:42 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/00 11:15:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > > well....alignment is always subject to the general consensus that > dictates what is right and what is wrong. it is really a matter of > perspectives on morality. > Not in game - people acting according the consensus of perspectives among Drow society aren't able to become Paladins - the alignments don't work that way. We could debate whether morality in the real world is relativistic, but it wouldn't have anything to do with Mystara, so would be a pointless (but perhaps interesting) digression.>> as the game is human based there are always differing human ideals on morality...in the case of the bulk of TSR related material that would fall under the auspices of christian morality. as for the drow paladins, i do not see your point as drow (and other non-humans) are excluded from attaining paladin status....at least in the base guidelines of the PHB. does this exclusion mean that all non-human races are evil? > the Alpher mindset as fully justifying their society. Even the "second class" > mundaners see the wisdom of the 2000+ year culture and accept the way things > are. > Oh, I'm sure the Alphatian nobility believes that the servile classes see the wisdom of things as they are - which probably leads to shock, bewilderment, and outrage every time there's a revolt ("why are they doing this? After all, we feed them, cloth them, take care of them. Without us, they'd be lost - they have the minds of children" are typical reactions to that sort of thing - never mind that it's the "children" in the servile base that feeds, cloths, and otherwise maintains the infrastructure that supports a worthless parasite class - the Aristocrats always think it's the other way around).>> well...i don't know what they feel as i have never spoken to any. however what i have read in the various alph related materials offer no indications of the feelings of the classes regarding their stations in alph society. as for the masses feeding the minority...i am unsure if that is altogether accurate. it is stated that magic does play a part in alph's agricultural base and accounts for its higher population densities in urban areas. those spells have to come from mages and therefore the mages are feeding the masses. the mundane classes seem quite content with their place. 2000+ years of the system with no recorded mundaner uprisings against the social practices. the only real uprisings have been by occuppied peoples. other uprisings by alphers have been over conscription in Surshield and raised taxes in Notrion. and since the mundaners are left to attend to most military matters, they surely have the means to form an armed revolt against the mages. i mean the thys managed to do a similar feat under occupied conditions. << But as for what the servile mundaners actually think, well, that's very likely another matter - especially if, as has been asserted, they value freedom as much as the Alphatian aristocracy; people who value freedom but don't have any are *not* happy campers. Well one might say they could have "hope" for their children. So we get a little role-playing to see about that: Father: "I know life is hard for us, but if we're extremely lucky, our child will be found to have a talent for magic! Then he'll be taken from us at an early age, to be taught magic and raised with the attitudes and mores of our masters! {Extreme Luck is needed, because among Alphatians the knack for magic is heritable, and also seems to be recessive.} Mother: "Did you say 'extremely lucky', or 'extremely unlucky'?" Father : "Umm. . . .errr. . .">> what's the big deal? the Shadow Elves have a similar hope that their offspring will bear the "divine" facial tatoo markings. likewise i am sure that most other cultures would have families quite grateful at the promise that one of their children possessed the knack for spellcraft. anyway...the above "conversation" has little canon foundations in its makeup. i don't seem to recall any references to potenital mages being snatched from their parents to become mages under imperial tutelage. what is often assumed is that the mundaners are the aristocrats' kicking posts despite a lack of evidence that the mages oppress them beyond the typical relationship between the ruling elite and the masses. the difference in alph is that the determining of someone being an aristocrat is based on spellcasting abilities. this prerequisite also broadening the aristocrat pool to include 20-25% of the general population. it also guarantees that someone cannot buy the title or gain it by the graces of who their parents were. > > However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its flexibility. > If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly > states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. > And from day to day! Based upon the momentary whims of the rulers! Again, on second thought, one can see the drawbacks in that, too: Something might be required one day ("I decree that everyone wear nose rings, because my latest doxy wears a nose ring, and I think it looks cute. So you will wear them in homage to her") and then outlawed the next ("That hearless hussy left me, taking the family jewels with me. Therefore, it is forbidden to wear nose rings henceforth, because it is an emblem of treachery and reminder of my love being betrayed") Of course, that's a silly example, but one can think of much worse examples - you're going along, building up a successful feathered hat business against all the odds out competing an Aristocrat in the same field. Then the Aristocrat chats up his buddy, the King. And suddenly the next day it is decreed that, by Royal Grant, the Aristocrat is given a monopoly over the feathered hat trade, and your business is confiscated and given to him - you are hereby relieved of the burden of engaging in such a trade, which must have been mentally wearying for a mundaner such as yourself, and instead assigned to the Aristocrat's household to help him run the business that was formerly yours. No need to thank your King for his magnaminity. Stuff like that used to happen, and would surely happen often in places where people (Alphatian Aristocrats) have power without responsibility. But, gives new meaning to the phrase "no way to run a railroad">> funny....i cannot think of a single concrete reference that supports the above. as far as i am concerned it is subject to the writer's personal feelings and opinions on the matter. > > yes. elves have laws but what are their laws? they are elven laws, probably > common sense "thou shall not kill" type laws. > Which are a far cry from "thou shalt not wear spider silk, wear your hair long without permission, or be found living outside the household of a master" type laws. (btw, the hair restriction reference is on p.14, "Player's Guide to Alphatia", under "Hairstyles", last paragraph).>> not to make a mountain out of a molehill but the hair length restriction law is centered on the slaves. likewise the owner dictates everything to do with the slave. the slave being his or her property and therefore his bidding. likewise the spider silk restriction is a minor issue. spidersilk is the cloth of mages and therefore considered theis through itsa cost and affiliation to the aristocracy on alph soil. there are similar dress codes in Darokin and to a degree even Karameikos. servant class hairstyle mandates are in line with the demands of the employer. that's not unreasonable as dresscodes are part of the norm for even most RW businesses. if the dresscode demands are too much then the servant can simply leave that employer to find work elsewhere. > and anyway....i am intrigued at the idea that just because the Alph law does > favor them, that people have the visual image of alph aristocrats walking > down the streets dispatching mundaners and slaves with one hand and doling > out fine money with the other. imo such unwarranted displays of aggression > are totally out of character with the alpher racial mindset. > you miss the point - the fact that it's set up that way (one can kill a slave for any reason or none) would certainly have a tendency to cow the slave into abject submission and servile abasement (not contented happyness, as some seem to think) - because they can be dispatched for getting out of line ("of course, being refined aristocrats, we didn't want to do it. But the lesson was needed.")>> but these are slaves. they are possessions.....even considered subhuman. i never said that they couldn't kill them. however i see no evidence that killing slaves indiscrimently is some favored alph hobby. alph treatment of slaves is no different than most RW slave owning nations (both past and present). slave discipline is to insure that there is order within their ranks. with nonslaves...order is achieved through the threat of imprisonment. with slaves they are already imprisoned...so death is the only real punishment for them. of course a master could threaten to sell them "down river" where they may be bought by rather insidious masters. > now i could > understand seeing a similar scenario in certain occupied barbarian > lands....afterall to the alphs they are only barbarians. > Which brings up another point, the not-too-enobling Alphatian attitudes that they form some sort of master race - again, it's true that lots of people (most, in fact) tend to think they're better than those other folks, but the Alphatians are on an extreme end of that spectrum ("Well, yes, but at least they're honest about their opinion that other races are scum!" Well, so was Hitler. I think we know that such attitudes don't lead to enlightened utopias.)>> what's the point? rome thought themselves superior to everyone to the point of their attempting to romanize the world....ultimately to their benefit of course. Americans are often accused of being rather arrogant as well. arrogance is a very human trait and crosses all national and ethnic borders. the alphs really do have some reasons to feel this superiority. since thyatis boasts being the foundation of civilization due to the thyatian language and culture, what about the alphs who have existed as a singular people for twice as long. the alphs came to a rather backwards mystara from a civilization that encompassed unseen levels of magic use and unseen expansion. on mystara they adopted the local magics and rose to be the prominent magic using people on mystara. anyway....the alph superiority complex is probably equal to those seen in elves and dwarves. > critiqued then magocracies such as Glantri, Herath, and even Minrothad are > the wiser choices for comparison against. you could toss in the elven nations > as well. > Well, I'd be happy to do that, too (and have) - and given those examples, while Glantri and Alphatia might differ in degree rather than kind, it would certainly seem that the lot of the average Glantrian is significantly better than that of the lot of the average Alphatian. Herath of course eats some of its non-Aranea folk from time to time, but who's to say that the Alphatians don't eat non Alphatians from time to time, just for the experience? After all, such scum are little better than cattle anyhow. And Minrothad is far better off socially.>> Once again the assumptions of alph society are being used to draw up comparisons to the other magic related nations. and truthfully Alph related references are rather vague at times and open to interpretation. for this reason i equally note what is note stated as much as what is stated. as for Minrothad...well it amazes me that they don't catch as much flak as Alph. afterall the Guildes are populated by Alphers and Elves....the two most maligned, arrogant, and misplayed peoples in RPG. but then again most folks forget about the ties to Alph. << Actually, drawing a comparison to Thyatis is one that allows for contrasts that are favorable, or at least equivilent, for Alphatia - after all, all legal protections aside, a slave is a slave and isn't likely to be jumping for joy in either place. And corrupt behavior is a problem for both (as is treachery if you really think about it - the Alphatians just have better press when it comes to that; but they engage in it all the time. Indeed, we might have a contest some time coming up with canon examples, and it'd be a much closer contest than one might imagine). But if the comparison is made to, say, Minrothad or Darokin instead of Thyatis then it's no contest, really. But I like to give my debating counterparts a fighting chance. 8-) >> well....the alph/thy comparisons are greatly bolstered by both empires being described (if you can call it that) in a single three book (if you can call the players books books) box set. add to that the cold war mentally encouraged between the two and AA's own buildup for Wrath and the deed was done. the problem is that the mystaran readership adopted this comparison and formulated its own interpretation of the meager offerings based on their particular favoritisms to either of the two. given that alphatia is out of the mainstream and vacationing in a HW retirement home the alphatian fanbase is surely to further erode in favor of kingdoms that are active in the SW environment. the way things were set out...Kara seems the penned as it takes the alph, thy, and elf aspects and crams them into a single nation. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:53:54 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/00 8:28:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << > well....alignment is always subject to the general consensus that dictates > what is right and what is wrong. it is really a matter of perspectives on > morality. In RW terms much that goes on in western civilizations would get > one in serious trouble in more conservative parts of the world....such as > certain Middle Eastern nations. And then there are religious practices. Two > hundred years ago....such practices would have gotten a majority of the > populaton branded as heretics. Yep, but Good and Evil are a bit more intuitive. At the obvious end of things, murder and torture are Evil, while charity and mercy are Good. A bit more hazy is the issue of slavery and personal freedom. But the bottom line I suppose is respect for the "sanctity of life".>> even good and evil are dependant upon the individual and their standard to decide what is good and evil. murder, especially in the US judiciary, is subject to interpretation. abortion, the death penalty, and mercy killings are sporadically hotly debated as being justified or murder. even war draws cries of murder in mass numbers despite the very reasons that war is declared and why armies are maintained. torture...well torture is subject to interpretation as well. to some simple incarceration is torture. to others listening to "boy band" records is torturous. seriously though....torture is defined by the varying intepretation of what causes extreme discomfort and the intent to inflict such discomfort. <> once again the assumption of the alpher mundaners being offed at will comes into play. overlooked is that the key word is "can" and doesn't include it as a tendency. likewise there are repurcussions for such actions. though the law favors the aristocrat they are subject to some degree of penalty for striking down a slave (as long as it is not theirs) and for harming a mundaner. sure the penalties are not the same as for an aristocrat but they do exist and are enforced. given the use of magic the truth is always uncovered and the guilty held accountable. the level of favoritism is not that big a gap. basically it is established to favor the aristocrat when a commoner commits a crime against an aristocrat. let's take a gander at it. ASSAULT a commoner assaulting a noble is penalized the cost to restore the victims health with 900% added on. a commoner assaulting another commoner is penalized the basic fine to restore the victim's health. a noble assaulting a commoner is penalized the cost of rstoring the victim's health. a noble assaulting another noble is penalized the cost of restoring the victim's health. MURDER a commoner murdering a noble is penalized all his or her financial interests to the victim's family and is put to death. a commoner murdering another commoner is penalized all his or her financial interests to the victim's family and is put to death. a noble murdering a commoner is penalized the amount to restore the victim's health and additionally fined the 900% in compensation. a noble murdering another noble is penalized all of his or her wealth and put to death. RAPE a commoner raping a noble is penalized all his or her financial interests to the victim's family and is made a slave to the victim. a commoner raping another commoner is penalized the cost to restore the victim's health. a noble raping a commoner is penalized the amount to restore the victim's health plus the 900% in further compensation. a noble raping another noble is penalized all of his or her wealth, stripped of their magical abilities, and made a slave of the victim. > Alphatia and Thyatis are two highly different cultures based on different > mindsets. To Alphatians there is nothing wrong with their culture. Sure there > are elements that are evil in Alphatian terms....eg Blackheart. I tend to see > the Alpher mindset as fully justifying their society. Even the "second class" > mundaners see the wisdom of the 2000+ year culture and accept the way things > are. I wasn't really thinking of Blackheart, that is so obvious as to not be worthy of comment. Everywhere on mainland Alphatia the peons are in the same boat, after all.>> Blackheart was offered as it seemed the best choice where evil could be equally recognized by all of alphatian society. otherwise examples would have been subject to varying recognitions as to what constitutes being evil, what may just be quirky or eccentric, and what are perfectly acceptable. anyway...if you have the elves gunning for you, you must be evil. > such is the role of Law; to keep a sense of order. Alpher Law is often > criticised but IMO it is far more realistic than any of the other Mystaran > nations. it favors the aristocrat but what RW culture's law doesn't. RW Law > is set up so that the famous and wealthy tend to fare better than those that > are not; either with public relations to a potential jury pool or by the > ability to surround their defense with better lawyers. and then there are > potential influences upon judges and court officials that may sway their > opinion. I cant think of many systems where the law so blatantly discriminates against the non elites. Even in feudal cultures, aside from the King who was nigh on God on Earth, there was at least a passing glance at justice. (The monarch is supposed to be the font of justice after all). A despotism can have lots of laws, the difference is whether a nation has justice or not. Alphatia, for the peons at least, most definitely does not.>> that's just the thing. the alph discriminations are not that severe if you look at them as what they really are. slaves asside....the law is not that big a deal. the hair thing certainly is no big deal (if it ever was one). the spider silk crap is very minor. << Having a better chance (better lawyers) is one thing, but having no chance at all as defined by the Law is something completely different. Laws are more than just a set of rules, they outline the morality of the society, and they aim to protect... someone. Is that someone the head of state, the nobility, or does it encompass all layers of society? Does the law bind everyone, high or low?>> lawyers is but the monetary side of the issue. another aspect is the family connections and political connections. look at Marion Barry. this guy is the Mayor of Washington DC and is caught on video by FBI smoking crack with an undercover agent posing as a hooker. he's given a slap on this wrist with a misdeamenor to prevent his political career from being ended (a felony would have disqualified him) and was later reelected to the mayorship. Then there is OJ Simpson and all that LA/Hollywood crap. Locally we had a similar thing happen with a mayor of a nearby city being sentenced to jail time for embellment of city funds. after he was released he has made a habit of running for reelection and comes pretty close to winning thanks to the blind support of the black population. historically monarchs have been subject to scandals where the law was overlooked. the sad thing is that thier rule was solidified by the Church and the divinity of rule. however the monarchs were not exactly tee-totalers in regards to observing their law. most aristocrats (even today) have little idea at real world demands and social constraints. and with family ties at the high end of the national foodchain there are little fears for repurcussions from the law. afterall such recriminations are a bit undermining to the divinity of the monarch and aristocrat. of course back then there wasn't CNN around to report everything to the masses. scandals were a bit easier to keep secret. > In Mystara similar tendencies exist. Aristocrats (including noble blood and > wealthy families) are held to a different legal standard than a commoner. the > difference in Alpherland is that the Alphers make no attempt to cover this > favoratism. << ? Different Mystaran nations rate different things. However I can think of few that blatantly discriminate. Take, say, Darokin. All are equal under Darokinian law, despite the fact that the society is blatantly biased towards who has the most cash. However - Darokin has a spirit of fair play - their trading rep is based upon it - and therefore I imagine that the laws of Darokin protect everybody. It seems likely that perhaps Darokin even has a "happy worker is a good worker" mentality, and goes out of its way to protect the rights of its peons. Fair laws would be a necessity in Darokin anyway, as effective trade is based around it (and this point is repeatedly stressed in the Darokin gaz).>> ah but remember the Darokinians are a merchant bunch. the merchant houses are the government. iirc there at least two examples given in the Gaz as to how Darokin justice is often dependant upon the profit margin and what can be handled without causing a big fuss. likewise most Darokin criminal penalties seem based on financial compensation. of course the higher end crimes draw the death penalty, imprisonment, or indentured servant status. <> it's glantri. the mages are the kingdom and everything that occurs within the kingdom is set to benefit the magocracy. though glantri does have that aspect somewhat hidded by covert means. as for legal matters, glantri law does favor the mage class. first, crimes can only be prosecuted legally for the week it happened. in a land of mages the mage is going to be better equipped to avoid capture for the week. conversely the mundaner will find escaping justice very difficult if the magocracy wants him or her badly enough. then there are the legal powers offered the domain rulers within their own domains. likewise the mundaner will find himself autmatically presumed guilty when the crime involves a mage. <> well....Stefan seems to exhibit a rather casual and convenient regard to the law. The Black Eagle literally got away with murder for years without fear of reprisals from Stefan. then there are the abuses rendered upon the native Traldaran by Thy nationals. in both cases Stefan looked the other way...or at the least gave them the benefit of the doubt in accusations. anyway....Kara is scripted to be the wonder-kingdom for Brun and Mystara. therefore it cannot do any wrong despite the precedent in troubles that under the name of any other nation would be considered a hotbed for trouble and corruption. > However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its flexibility. > If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly > states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. iirc hunting without a > license is offered as an example; potentially being lawful in some kingdoms, > Insolance in others, and warranting the death penalty in others. The severity > of the charge being decided by individual kingdom legal practices and the > attending judge. I also tend to think that with the truth invariably coming > to light sans ESP, that this flexibility is used to take into account > extenuating circumstances and what really happened. Conversely, familiy > connections could influence the charges being lessened to allot a less severe > penalty. Flexibility in this case means that the aristo can do whatever he wants. Flexibility is probably true in Karameikos as well (the King can do pretty well whatever he wants, in theory) but with the difference that it is regulated to some extent (a true monarchy is not a despotism, the King does have limits) and likely to be consistent - and perhaps even reflect the views of society in the truly enlightened nations. This is true flexibility.>> actually the noble cannot do anything he or she wants. for every crime there are recriminations. though there are certain gaps between the penalties incurred by noble and commoner for the same crime against the other, the penalties are fitting for the crime and quite consistant with penalties seen in other mystaran kingdoms. even putting down the poor downtrodden slave is not without recriminations as the slave's master is surely wanting to be compensated for the loss of his property. and if the slave owner is apt to let his slaves run about in public where the offchance opportunity that they may be killed, then surely he has had them insured with a heavy ended assessment at the old registry. > it often comes across in this forum that the aristocrats are untouched by the > law. in truth they are not. the favortism they have in its eyes is in the > penalty stage. the alph judicial system favor innocence over guilt and has > ESP to get to the truth of the matter. with a direct insight at the truth > behind a charge, trials are rather straightforward and not dragged out by > legal motions or circumstantial evidence. either you did it or you didn't. > however there is also an underlying sense of true justice as someone that is > technically innocent of a specific act can be coincidently fined for their > role in a crime. Much talk is made of ESP. However, consider this. An aristo kills a peon. And subsequently pleads guilty. The aristo coughs up 100gp and walks away. Justice in action.>> actually he has to pay the amount to restore the victim to his previous health and provide financial compensation (fine 1 x10). multiplying the the costs of casting the restorative spells by ten is a rather hefty fine. << And another one.. the peon addresses an aristo as "Mage X" when in fact the aforementioned aristo is in fact a Transmuter, and dislikes being likened to the common Mage scum (generalists - pah!). ESPs are duly deployed - the peon was unwitting, but then the aristo here is generally pissed off that he has been inaccurately labelled. Peon gets 10 lashes (at least). Justice in action.>> the problem with this is one is that it assumes that the aforementioned Transmuter would take such a stance or that such addressing is deamed worthy of criminal prosecution. add to this the general title for a mage or cleric aristocrat as being "Lord or Lady" and the chances of a politcally correct mage being offended at being addressed is quite out of the ordinary. likewise the aristocrat is surely to be recognized as being an aristocrat as he or she will undoubtely be decked out in the aristocrat spidersilk garb and clearly notes them as being of the aristocracy. i would suggest a more suitable scenario as an aristocrat being addressed by a commoner in Arogansa. of course any kingdom name Arogansa is surely to be the ultraelitist haven. but anyway...the law is rather well known and therefore anyone breaking that law is surely asking for trouble. << I doubt Sherlane of Karameikos could get away with whipping his peons if they mispronounced his title - not if it was a regular thing, enshrined in the law. Before too long the peons would be petitioning their King, and something would (theoretically) be done.>> it has already been done several times with little reaction from Stefan. <> whatever. there are definite recriminations for alph nobles. there are examples where the Kara has soiled its guilded image. it's all there in black and white if you look at it. > < in the first place, which tells you something about the civic mentality of > the place - and as I already said, corruption is the Thyatian problem (as a > result of WotI).>> > > actually canon sources beyond those written by Aaron Allston cite the > Thyatian corruption as a key attribute. corruption is also given as the > motivation for so many Thys leaving the empire to travel to other parts of > Brun and set up their Thy derived minorities there (Darokin, Glantri, Wendar, > Kara, etc.). > I suggest you reread what I said. At least Thyatis gave out bread in the first place to the poor of the city. I find it highly unlikely that the Alpher government would give a damn - unless the aggressive begging became a problem, in which case the scum would be herded out (by the benign) or turned into zombies and used as trendy furniture (by the not so benign).>> the original statement implies to me that the Thy corruption was born from the events in Wrath. However, Thy has that preWrath stereotype as being corrupt. as for the free bread....that aspect of Thy is a guarantee of citizenship. and yes the alphs do have their system of dole. The Bellissarian Bread Basket and south eastern kingdoms provide ample grains for the populace. all are provided to the population for the basic diet. that reference is in DotE but i do not recall where it is exactly. > << The difference is that Thyatis may be corrupt, but at least it has a sound > baseline. Alphatia doesn't even have that.>> > > i am not sure. there is a strange rationality in alphatian social > structure....a sense of "order amid the chaos". actually the society is > probably the best means to maintain a sense of order in a rather chaotic land > where there are so many near omnipotent mages. Not for the peons. They are just scum, treated with the same dignity and respect as sheep or cattle. They are subhuman in aristo eyes - their lives are worth no more than a handful of gold.>> more assumptions. > Alperland is by no means perfect. however i do think that the social system > there is well suited for its populace. with its simple chaotic and > individualist nature it also a highly complex and multifacetted setting in > Mystara. imo that aspect breeds more adventure potential than a typical > "cookie cutter" rpg kingdom based on King Arthur's Camelot where everything > is black and white. The Alpher society is indeed well suited to the mages living there. But for the peons, it must be truly hell on earth. No rights, no hopes. They are dung, useful only as "cheap labour" (as it says in DoE), subject to being killed at the whim of their masters. They have little or no personal liberty, and even the slightest infraction is punished with a swift whipping (or, as the aristos doubtless call it, a gentle stroke with the wand of discipline).>> more assumptions. >the only counter given to this is the taxation of > these slaves on these assessed values which coincidently (not intentionally) > balances out the tendency to overinflate slave values. Why is that exactly? Coincidence? Uh huh. Elsewhere we find things like "can legally kill any slave, for any reason or none", "no censure", and "a slaves life is usually one of heartbreaking labour from youth till death, few are permitted to learn to read, few ever hold a coin in their lives".>> note the word "can" is used and that does not mean they do. as for the hardships of a slave's life, i won't dispute that as the alph slave guidelines are consistant with those seen in RW slave owning cultures. however i would add that slavery is legal in alphatia (and thyatis) and that slavery is exactly that. however i would add that slaves are property and one does not just go around destroying other peoples properties without some sort of retribution. legally in alph this comes by way of financial compensation. plus i have to think that a slave owner gets pretty ticked off if his properties become harmed in a consistant pattern...possibly part of a some rivalry. <> jeez...more of that crap. it amazes me that of an entire paragraph on alph military that one sentence is used to demonstrate the alpher military dispite it being used as a means to describe what the alph military isn't. other practical references and the "renown pikemen...axemen" references are quickly overlooked. as are the attributes of the same society that would require the nonspellcasters to be as individualistic as their aristocratic counterparts. > and anyway....i am intrigued at the idea that just because the Alph law does > favor them, that people have the visual image of alph aristocrats walking > down the streets dispatching mundaners and slaves with one hand and doling > out fine money with the other. imo such unwarranted displays of aggression > are totally out of character with the alpher racial mindset. now i could > understand seeing a similar scenario in certain occupied barbarian > lands....afterall to the alphs they are only barbarians. :-) plus the > tendency for the occupying mages to cause the natives to rise up and oust > them also bear this out. I reckon Alphatia could well be like South Vietnam. Rich nobles, scum in the streets, laws made up on the fly. As for the mindset, remember the suspected VC shot by the police chief on TV? The difference is in Alphatia at least he would get the benefit of an ESP spell (and remember folks, an ESP spell is only as reliable as the mage casting it - an ESPing wiz is effectively just another witness.) >> funny....that sounds a bit thyatian. but seriously the above is based upon assumptions. the use of ESP to determine innocent or guilt is rather straightforward. deviations in interpreting the law is dependant upon what a crime is charged as and what kingdom it is judged in...based on the general mindset of the kingdoms. for the simple act of being rude to an aristocrat the charge may vary. kingdoms such as Arogansa might warrant a charge of treason where in Theranderol, Randel, Bettellyn, or even Blackheart it may warrant a charge of insolance. you also have to look at the aristocrats involved. some may see no offense, some may see some but not worthy of formal charges, others may see a minor incident as being much more, yet others may see it as such but seek their own form of justice. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:08:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Gladiator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Igor wrote: > I saw an advance screening of Gladiator last night. > > In general, I think it's worth seeing. > > It also struck me as reasonably Thyatian. About 940-960 AC, I'd say. When you > see it, image the first sequence occuring in Traladara. i saw the last 30th seconds on MTV i hope i will see it complete next time. it looks well. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:21:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > well...i don't know what they feel as i have never spoken to any. however > what i have read in the various alph related materials offer no indications > of the feelings of the classes regarding their stations in alph society. as > for the masses feeding the minority...i am unsure if that is altogether > accurate. it is stated that magic does play a part in alph's agricultural > base and accounts for its higher population densities in urban areas. those > spells have to come from mages and therefore the mages are feeding the masses. > the mundane classes seem quite content with their place. 2000+ years of the > system with no recorded mundaner uprisings against the social practices. the > only real uprisings have been by occuppied peoples. other uprisings by > alphers have been over conscription in Surshield and raised taxes in Notrion. > and since the mundaners are left to attend to most military matters, they > surely have the means to form an armed revolt against the mages. i mean the > thys managed to do a similar feat under occupied conditions. Just because the mages play a part in the nations economy doesnt mean to say the commoners are beluvved of the mages, and reap all the benefits of the magic. Even a 500 storey magical skyscraper needs its peons, after all. As for the lack of uprisings - well, probably you can trace such things to the Alphatian mind police (there is no organised theft in Alphatia, let alone organised high treason). Plus there are other means to keep the peons in line. Its a running joke IMC that whenever the PCs visit Herath, they always manage to leave with one more geas spell cast upon them... As for good/evil being defined by the national standard - is the Azcan Empire good or evil? (As a total aside - ESP is not exactly the best spell to use to discover innocence or guilt (read the spell description sometime). Over reliance on ESP and magic in general could lead to large numbers of miscarriages of justice - using ESP even on a 0 level human in this way will give a misleading result around 40% of the time, and its even less accurate against higher level individuals. And as I've already mentioned, ESP is only reliable as the caster - its a fairly standard law IMC that magical evidence is not admissible in court (except in all the worlds magocracies) for just these reasons). > << But as for what the servile mundaners actually think, well, that's very > likely another matter - especially if, as has been asserted, they value > freedom as much as the Alphatian aristocracy; people who value freedom but > don't have any are *not* happy campers. Well one might say they could have > "hope" for their children. So we get a little role-playing to see about > that: > Father: "I know life is hard for us, but if we're extremely lucky, our > child will be found to have a talent for magic! Then he'll be taken from us > at an early age, to be taught magic and raised with the attitudes and mores > of our masters! {Extreme Luck is needed, because among Alphatians the knack > for magic is heritable, and also seems to be recessive.} > Mother: "Did you say 'extremely lucky', or 'extremely unlucky'?" > Father : "Umm. . . .errr. . .">> > > what's the big deal? the Shadow Elves have a similar hope that their > offspring will bear the "divine" facial tatoo markings. likewise i am sure > that most other cultures would have families quite grateful at the promise > that one of their children possessed the knack for spellcraft. anyway...the > above "conversation" has little canon foundations in its makeup. i don't seem > to recall any references to potenital mages being snatched from their parents > to become mages under imperial tutelage. Uh? Thats taken straight out of the DoE... together with such evocative phrases like "never holds a coin in his life". All kids are tested for magic. As to whether the kids leave their parents when they are elevated to Mage status - well, presumably they are yanked off for training and indoctrinated suitably. > > However an aspect of Alpher Law that is often overlooked is its > flexibility. > > If you look in the DotE set you'll see that the Alph Law section clearly > > states that charges vary from kingdom to kingdom. > > > And from day to day! Based upon the momentary whims of the rulers! > Again, on second thought, one can see the drawbacks in that, too: > Something might be required one day ("I decree that everyone wear > nose > rings, because my latest doxy wears a nose ring, and I think it looks cute. > So you will wear them in homage to her") and then outlawed the next ("That > hearless hussy left me, taking the family jewels with me. Therefore, it is > forbidden to wear nose rings henceforth, because it is an emblem of > treachery and reminder of my love being betrayed") > Of course, that's a silly example, but one can think of much worse > examples - you're going along, building up a successful feathered hat > business against all the odds out competing an Aristocrat in the same > field. Then the Aristocrat chats up his buddy, the King. And suddenly the > next day it is decreed that, by Royal Grant, the Aristocrat is given a > monopoly over the feathered hat trade, and your business is confiscated and > given to him - you are hereby relieved of the burden of engaging in such a > trade, which must have been mentally wearying for a mundaner such as > yourself, and instead assigned to the Aristocrat's household to help him > run the business that was formerly yours. No need to thank your King for > his magnaminity. > Stuff like that used to happen, and would surely happen often in > places > where people (Alphatian Aristocrats) have power without responsibility. > But, gives new meaning to the phrase "no way to run a railroad">> > > funny....i cannot think of a single concrete reference that supports the > above. as far as i am concerned it is subject to the writer's personal > feelings and opinions on the matter. Alphatian law seems to split into two categories - Imperial Law and local law. Imperial Law basically protects the rights of wizards, maintains the status quo (translators note - keeps the peons in line (what else can be read into this btw?), sets out the scale of the social order (ie the caste system), handles tax and other such things. Local law is whatever the local ruler wants, providing it doesn't transgress Imperial Law. That alone could cause the above, but "maintaining the status quo...". What laws exactly would there be to do that? Presumably the mundanes have life made difficult for them in a variety of ways just to do that. > Which are a far cry from "thou shalt not wear spider silk, wear your hair > long without permission, or be found living outside the household of a > master" type laws. (btw, the hair restriction reference is on p.14, > "Player's Guide to Alphatia", under "Hairstyles", last paragraph).>> > > not to make a mountain out of a molehill but the hair length restriction law > is centered on the slaves. likewise the owner dictates everything to do with > the slave. Uh, no, its for servants as well. Actually there is precious little difference between the two types - the only real difference is that a servant has some discretion as to who his master is, and his master need not necessarily be a spellcaster. > the slave being his or her property and therefore his bidding. > likewise the spider silk restriction is a minor issue. spidersilk is the > cloth of mages and therefore considered theis through itsa cost and > affiliation to the aristocracy on alph soil. there are similar dress codes in > Darokin and to a degree even Karameikos. servant class hairstyle mandates are > in line with the demands of the employer. that's not unreasonable as > dresscodes are part of the norm for even most RW businesses. if the dresscode > demands are too much then the servant can simply leave that employer to find > work elsewhere. Its still unusual and more than a little fascist to actually have a law prohibiting it. I doubt many peasants in Karameikos can afford cloth of gold robes either, but at least there isn't a law prohibiting them from wearing it should they manage to get hold of some. Peasants in Karameikos have preferences, but thats due to culture, not due to the law. And as for Darokin, they wear whatever they can afford. Theres more to it than that though - what does this rather petty law say about Alphatian society? Its obviously intended to widen the class gaps between mages and mundanes. The Haves and Have Nots. > but these are slaves. they are possessions.....even considered subhuman. i > never said that they couldn't kill them. however i see no evidence that > killing slaves indiscrimently is some favored alph hobby. alph treatment of Well, lets compare with the only other Mystaran surface nation that actually has slaves and their rights defined in canon material. It happens to be Thyatis somewhat unfortunately. Slaves do have some rights, including they cannot be permamently marred or killed by their owners, either for punishment or as a mark of ownership. They must receive at least minimal food and shelter (and some slaves starve themselves to be rid of a brutal owner - ok, not nice, but its at least they have a getout, Alph slaves dont), they can own some personal possessions, but not more than he can carry (defined as what he can carry when healthy - that does smack of at least some attempt of a fair law), and can purchase his freedom. In fact, the Slave of Thyatis has a lot in common with the Servant of Alphatia - in some ways in fact Thyatian slaves have more rights than Alphatian servants. The Alphatian slaves have about the same rights as an Alphatian draft horse. I'm not really trying to bring up the Thy vs Alph argument here - but it does shoot down your comment that the conditions of slaves in Alphatia are typical in all nations, because they evidently are not. > Well, I'd be happy to do that, too (and have) - and given those examples, > while Glantri and Alphatia might differ in degree rather than kind, it > would certainly seem that the lot of the average Glantrian is significantly > better than that of the lot of the average Alphatian. Herath of course eats > some of its non-Aranea folk from time to time, but who's to say that the > Alphatians don't eat non Alphatians from time to time, just for the > experience? After all, such scum are little better than cattle anyhow. And > Minrothad is far better off socially.>> Hey! Araneas in Herath don't eat sentients any more... They gave that up. (Not enough meat on elves anyway). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 18:00:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Fry Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > < passing aristocrat who sees fit) Alphatian nobles have little respect for > the lives of their peons - so saith the law, anyway.>> > > once again the assumption of the alpher mundaners being offed at will comes > into play. overlooked is that the key word is "can" and doesn't include it as > a tendency. Once again you are missing the point. It doesnt really matter whether they are or they arent. The fact is that the right to do so is enshrined in Alphatian Imperial Law, the highest law in the land. No appealing to the Alphatian Font of Justice on this issue. (Except Alphatia doesn't really have a font of justice in the normal sense). >likewise there are repurcussions for such actions. though the law > favors the aristocrat they are subject to some degree of penalty for striking > down a slave (as long as it is not theirs) and for harming a mundaner. sure > the penalties are not the same as for an aristocrat but they do exist and are > enforced. given the use of magic the truth is always uncovered and the guilty > held accountable. the level of favoritism is not that big a gap. basically it > is established to favor the aristocrat when a commoner commits a crime > against an aristocrat. let's take a gander at it. OK, but is the penalty for striking another mans slave because of a) an infringement of the slaves rights, or b) because he has damaged someone elses property? The moral basis for that law speaks volumes about Alphatian laws and society. As for truth always being uncovered - show me any divination spell that doesnt have a chance of being wrong or misinterpreted. And tell me that you think that all Alphatian diviners in the employ of the constabulary are 100% honest. But thats a different subject (see earlier post). > ASSAULT > a commoner assaulting a noble is penalized the cost to restore the victims > health with 900% added on. > a commoner assaulting another commoner is penalized the basic fine to restore > the victim's health. > a noble assaulting a commoner is penalized the cost of rstoring the victim's > health. > a noble assaulting another noble is penalized the cost of restoring the > victim's health. Just out of interest, what happens if the commoner is unable to pay the required reparations? 900% of the cost is likely to be more than a commoner has, given the limits on what he can own and how much hard currency he is likely to earn. > MURDER > a commoner murdering a noble is penalized all his or her financial interests > to the victim's family and is put to death. > a commoner murdering another commoner is penalized all his or her financial > interests to the victim's family and is put to death. > a noble murdering a commoner is penalized the amount to restore the victim's > health and additionally fined the 900% in compensation. > a noble murdering another noble is penalized all of his or her wealth and put > to death. Although that doesnt cover slaves... But a fine is a slightly different kettle of fish than a death sentence. I wonder what the public reaction would be in the UK if some judge let off a murderer with a fine - and they don't even have the death sentence here so its not so huge a gap. > RAPE > a commoner raping a noble is penalized all his or her financial interests to > the victim's family and is made a slave to the victim. > a commoner raping another commoner is penalized the cost to restore the > victim's health. > a noble raping a commoner is penalized the amount to restore the victim's > health plus the 900% in further compensation. > a noble raping another noble is penalized all of his or her wealth, stripped > of their magical abilities, and made a slave of the victim. Restoring the victims health isnt likely to be so much with this crime (unless you use psionicists as well who can use psychic surgery to patch up the mental trauma). As for "being made a slave of the victim" thats pretty well the right to do whatever you want to him, which can be pretty bad if you happen to be a wizard. All manner of fun tortures could be devised... (Incidentally in the case of noble-noble rape, the accused could just duel the victim - assuming the accused really had raped the victim presumably he would be the more powerful). > I cant think of many systems where the law so blatantly discriminates > against the non elites. Even in feudal cultures, aside from the King who > was nigh on God on Earth, there was at least a passing glance at justice. > (The monarch is supposed to be the font of justice after all). A despotism > can have lots of laws, the difference is whether a nation has justice or > not. Alphatia, for the peons at least, most definitely does not.>> > > that's just the thing. the alph discriminations are not that severe if you > look at them as what they really are. slaves asside....the law is not that > big a deal. the hair thing certainly is no big deal (if it ever was one). the > spider silk crap is very minor. Its not minor though! As I have already said, it speaks volumes on the morality of Alphatian society. After all, laws are a reflection of the morality of the nation (or at least, those who decide what the law is). And that is merely what is provided for us in a 32 page booklet on the subject. What other little restrictions would servants have, if you fleshed the Alphatian legal system out a little more along the moral axis defined by what we have? > historically monarchs have been subject to scandals where the law was > overlooked. the sad thing is that thier rule was solidified by the Church and > the divinity of rule. however the monarchs were not exactly tee-totalers in > regards to observing their law. most aristocrats (even today) have little > idea at real world demands and social constraints. and with family ties at > the high end of the national foodchain there are little fears for > repurcussions from the law. afterall such recriminations are a bit > undermining to the divinity of the monarch and aristocrat. of course back > then there wasn't CNN around to report everything to the masses. scandals > were a bit easier to keep secret. Just a quote from a NG... not necessarily my opinion, but just showing that your opinion isnt the only one in the world... Further, it is the history of the aristocracy, in general, with notable exceptions (George III and Richard III, for example), of representing the interests of their subjects in a much more just, egalitarian, and representative manner than purely democratic and/or autocratic forms of government. It should be remebered that the aristocracy arose from warriors who were willing to risk their lives to defend their own rights and the rights of their countrymen. It was and is unjust not to give those who risk their lives to preserve the state more political power than those either unwilling or unable to do the same. > << ? Different Mystaran nations rate different things. > However I can think of few that blatantly discriminate. Take, say, Darokin. > All are equal under Darokinian law, despite the fact that the society is > blatantly biased towards who has the most cash. However - Darokin has a > spirit of fair play - their trading rep is based upon it - and therefore I > imagine that the laws of Darokin protect everybody. It seems likely that > perhaps Darokin even has a "happy worker is a good worker" mentality, and > goes out of its way to protect the rights of its peons. Fair laws would be > a necessity in Darokin anyway, as effective trade is based around it (and > this point is repeatedly stressed in the Darokin gaz).>> > > ah but remember the Darokinians are a merchant bunch. the merchant houses are > the government. iirc there at least two examples given in the Gaz as to how > Darokin justice is often dependant upon the profit margin and what can be > handled without causing a big fuss. likewise most Darokin criminal penalties > seem based on financial compensation. of course the higher end crimes draw > the death penalty, imprisonment, or indentured servant status. Is this bad? If you read the Darokin gaz the place seems to be like the model utopian Free Market. It constantly stresses fair play, the abilities of even the poorest to go from rags to riches, etc. etc. Regarding the penalties, bear in mind that fines not only represent an impact on the sentenced individuals wealth - they also include a drop in social status by definition, by the way that Darokinian society works. Darokin isn't my favourite nation I must admit because the place is just too darned nice... > it's glantri. the mages are the kingdom and everything that occurs within the > kingdom is set to benefit the magocracy. though glantri does have that aspect > somewhat hidded by covert means. as for legal matters, glantri law does favor > the mage class. first, crimes can only be prosecuted legally for the week it > happened. in a land of mages the mage is going to be better equipped to avoid > capture for the week. conversely the mundaner will find escaping justice very > difficult if the magocracy wants him or her badly enough. then there are the > legal powers offered the domain rulers within their own domains. likewise the > mundaner will find himself autmatically presumed guilty when the crime > involves a mage. It does favour the mage class - but aside from who can assume the throne of noble, thats the only real discrimination there. Mages arent necessarily better equipped to evade capture. I would have thought thieves would be (not least because if they are a member of one of Glantri's many guilds they get the backing of the guild (and the aristos who support/use the guild) through covert means. I'm not saying Glantri is a paragon of justice and fair play. But Glantri only really discriminates against priests, not against mundanes. Mundanes have a definite place in Glantrian society - and in fact occupy important positions and have a fair bit of clout to boot. Jaggar has a fair bit of respect for mundaners, the Ethie princes do as well, the elven princesses doubtless would (Carlotina is just nice, Carnelia runs the MMafia, which doubtless includes a fair few nonmages). > < feudal responsibility that cuts both ways - and is enforced as such. The > peasants are expected to serve the Baron, but the Baron is likewise supposed > to protect those peasants living on his fief. As Stefan takes a dim view of > serfdom, the peons are pretty well free - no "every wog needs a master" > mentality here. And Stefan even takes complaints from the peons himself, in > the classic feudal Font of Justice role. Yep, Justice as we know it is > alive and well here too.>> > > well....Stefan seems to exhibit a rather casual and convenient regard to the > law. The Black Eagle literally got away with murder for years without fear of > reprisals from Stefan. then there are the abuses rendered upon the native > Traldaran by Thy nationals. in both cases Stefan looked the other way...or at > the least gave them the benefit of the doubt in accusations. > anyway....Kara is scripted to be the wonder-kingdom for Brun and Mystara. > therefore it cannot do any wrong despite the precedent in troubles that under > the name of any other nation would be considered a hotbed for trouble and > corruption. I agree entirely with the last comment. However, given your views on Alphatia you can hardly complain complain about how a nation is presented. Even if presented in a bad light, Karameikos is intrinsically fairer than Alphatia, simply by virtue of how its laws work. And saying that its corrupt - ok, thats bad, but its not as bad as a legal system where you dont need to be corrupt to get away with murder... > actually he has to pay the amount to restore the victim to his previous > health and provide financial compensation (fine 1 x10). multiplying the the > costs of casting the restorative spells by ten is a rather hefty fine. Financial compensation would be a new peon of equal worth - plus a fine. Not more than 1000gp I would hazard for the most beloved of slaves. As for the firepower of Raise Dead and suchlike - well, if you want raise dead on tap like that, fine, but my Mystara doesn't. Talk about game wrecking! > << And another one.. the peon addresses an aristo as "Mage X" when in fact the > aforementioned aristo is in fact a Transmuter, and dislikes being likened to > the common Mage scum (generalists - pah!). ESPs are duly deployed - the > peon was unwitting, but then the aristo here is generally pissed off that he > has been inaccurately labelled. Peon gets 10 lashes (at least). Justice in > action.>> > > the problem with this is one is that it assumes that the aforementioned > Transmuter would take such a stance or that such addressing is deamed worthy > of criminal prosecution. add to this the general title for a mage or cleric > aristocrat as being "Lord or Lady" and the chances of a politcally correct > mage being offended at being addressed is quite out of the ordinary. likewise > the aristocrat is surely to be recognized as being an aristocrat as he or she > will undoubtely be decked out in the aristocrat spidersilk garb and clearly > notes them as being of the aristocracy. Well, it is deemed worthy of prosecution. The crime is "insolence", ie dont insult the man. If he honestly considers himself to be insulted, than the slave is guilty. If they really DO use ESP all the time, thats what the ESP will reveal anyway. "Did this slave insult you?". "Yes." > << I doubt Sherlane of Karameikos could get away with whipping his peons if > they mispronounced his title - not if it was a regular thing, enshrined in > the law. Before too long the peons would be petitioning their King, and > something would (theoretically) be done.>> > > it has already been done several times with little reaction from Stefan. Stefan didn't know about Ludwig (allegedly - ya gotta luv these plot twists). Ludwig went out of his way to cover up what he did - because if he didnt, he would be nailed to the wall (and in the end this happened). Thats a case of massive corruption, not a case of an unjust legal system. > > < bread > > in the first place, which tells you something about the civic mentality > of > > the place - and as I already said, corruption is the Thyatian problem (as > a > > result of WotI).>> > > > > actually canon sources beyond those written by Aaron Allston cite the > > Thyatian corruption as a key attribute. corruption is also given as the > > motivation for so many Thys leaving the empire to travel to other parts of > > Brun and set up their Thy derived minorities there (Darokin, Glantri, > Wendar, > > Kara, etc.). Once more the point has totally missed you. If Thyatis really was a total hellhole where the elites didnt give a damn about their peons, there wouldnt be any bread money at all. Thats the point I was making. > the original statement implies to me that the Thy corruption was born from > the events in Wrath. However, Thy has that preWrath stereotype as being > corrupt. as for the free bread....that aspect of Thy is a guarantee of > citizenship. and yes the alphs do have their system of dole. The Bellissarian > Bread Basket and south eastern kingdoms provide ample grains for the > populace. all are provided to the population for the basic diet. that > reference is in DotE but i do not recall where it is exactly. See the above... Also see the earlier notes about having to keep slaves fed. > Not for the peons. They are just scum, treated with the same dignity and > respect as sheep or cattle. They are subhuman in aristo eyes - their lives > are worth no more than a handful of gold.>> > > more assumptions. OK, read the description on Slave and tell me why they arent considered to be subhuman. Actually, doesnt matter, you have already responded and labelled them as subhuman yourself, so I'll assume you agree with me :) > The Alpher society is indeed well suited to the mages living there. But for > the peons, it must be truly hell on earth. No rights, no hopes. They are > dung, useful only as "cheap labour" (as it says in DoE), subject to being > killed at the whim of their masters. They have little or no personal > liberty, and even the slightest infraction is punished with a swift whipping > (or, as the aristos doubtless call it, a gentle stroke with the wand of > discipline).>> > > more assumptions. Pages 16, 17 and 18 in the Guide to Alphatia. > < they arent armed with bagpipes and daggers, the incredible backtrack on the > logical conclusions of the above on the Alpher legal system is astounding.>> > > jeez...more of that crap. it amazes me that of an entire paragraph on alph > military that one sentence is used to demonstrate the alpher military dispite > it being used as a means to describe what the alph military isn't. other > practical references and the "renown pikemen...axemen" references are quickly > overlooked. as are the attributes of the same society that would require the > nonspellcasters to be as individualistic as their aristocratic counterparts. Well, there is a point there I think. Weigh up the evidence for and against the issues of a) is the life of a mundaner sheer hell, and b) is the Alphatian army a mean, lean fighting machine Give me a list of fors and for nots against each of those categories. > I reckon Alphatia could well be like South Vietnam. Rich nobles, scum in > the streets, laws made up on the fly. As for the mindset, remember the > suspected VC shot by the police chief on TV? The difference is in Alphatia > at least he would get the benefit of an ESP spell (and remember folks, an > ESP spell is only as reliable as the mage casting it - an ESPing wiz is > effectively just another witness.) >> > > funny....that sounds a bit thyatian. Well, no Thyatian can off another Thyatian on a whim, not even the nobles - and not even to criminals. Thats the main point I was raising. >but seriously the above is based upon > assumptions. the use of ESP to determine innocent or guilt is rather > straightforward. deviations in interpreting the law is dependant upon what a > crime is charged as and what kingdom it is judged in...based on the general > mindset of the kingdoms. for the simple act of being rude to an aristocrat > the charge may vary. kingdoms such as Arogansa might warrant a charge of > treason where in Theranderol, Randel, Bettellyn, or even Blackheart it may > warrant a charge of insolance. you also have to look at the aristocrats > involved. some may see no offense, some may see some but not worthy of formal > charges, others may see a minor incident as being much more, yet others may > see it as such but seek their own form of justice. Yep, but throwing your fortunes to the tender mercies of the mage concerned isn't exactly fair. They may or may not prosecute, but the fact is you have to keep your nose clean and toe the line, or you WILL eventually come a cropper and be put firmly in your place - with the rest of the peons. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:21:45 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I moved this portion I'm going to be responding to from well down in the post up to here because I'd like to start on a positive note of agreement, but also make a point as well. I'm pointing that out to show that I'm not trying to distort what the previous poster said, I just think it's a point I'd like to address first, right off the top: >> truthfully Alph related references are rather vague at times and open to interpretation. for this reason i equally note what is note stated as much as what is stated. << I'd agree with that, at least in part (and I assume you meant to say ". . ...note what is stated as much as what is not stated.") However, it *does* seem from time to time that I'm denied any accedence to the validity of my interpretation of things - even though I always endevor to reference exactly where I drew my conclusions from in the sources that do exist (they might be rather vague at times, but they aren't so vague as to be unable to draw conclusions from them) - something I must say is rarely ever done by people who argue in refutation of my points. For example, in much of what you said subsiquently, you refered to not being able to find this or that in the sources at all - wheras, as I said, I've been careful to reference virtually every point, with source, page number, paragraph, and quote. This is rarely done by those arguing the alternative view - not that you have to, or that this needs to become a quotefest, but I should be allowed aknowlegement that I'm not just creating things out of empty air. So, yes, truthfully the Alphatia related sources/references are vague - however, that doesn't stop people from drawing conclusions and interpretations. You yourself do that all the time - as is your right. Don't I have the same right? And yes, you find my interpretation much too dark, while I find yours much too sunny, but I'm willing to say that things are probably somewhere in between. >> i do not see your point as << Well, that's a general problem we both seem to often have when discussing things with each other, isn't it? I mean, not seeing each other's point. IMO, that's why we've had problems in the past. At any rate, this is covering ground I covered in some earlier posts, so I'm going to try and keep my replies brief to avoid repetition, but mainly to show references so you might see where I arrived at my conclusions. As for Drow, perhaps the Paladin example wasn't a perfect one for the reason you gave, but I thought you *might* see the point I was making anyhow. Well, the somewhat better analogy would be with Rangers - there's now an extensive "AD&D Literature" (whether one is a fan of it or not is beside the point) that covers, among other things, why one can't be a Ranger and follow the "norms" of Drow society (all that stuff about Dzitt or whatever his name is). He could become a Ranger, but *NOT* by staying within the mores of Drow society. Point is, D&D Alignments aren't relitavistic. People might not like that, but, like a lot of things, that's not my problem. So rather than go into it more here (I've been told alignment discussions are boring as well as pointless), I'll just leave it at that. >> well...i don't know what they feel as i have never spoken to any. << That's never stopped you from sharing your opinion on them before, or now, but that's neither here nor there. . . >> however what i have read in the various alph related materials offer no indications of the feelings of the classes regarding their stations in alph society. << I will limit myself to quoting just one one, but there are others in DotE as well - ". . .rebelliously resists Empress Eriadna's efforts to keep him 'in his place' - I.E., as a powerless warrior serving the Alphatian magic-using elite." (DotE, DMSB, p.73, under "Helskir: Eruul Zaar") >> likewise i am sure that most other cultures would have families quite grateful at the promise that one of their children possessed the knack for spellcraft. anyway...the above "conversation" has little canon foundations in its makeup. i don't seem to recall any references to potenital mages being snatched from their parents to become mages under imperial tutelage. << P. 18, Player's Guide to Alphatia, under Education - the schools are boarding schools, so of neccessity that means it's conducted away from the mages. >> what is often assumed is that the mundaners are the aristocrats' kicking posts despite a lack of evidence that the mages oppress them beyond the typical relationship between the ruling elite and the masses. << Again, rather than repeat myself and my quotations, I simply refer you to the posts I've already made on the subject, and the references therin quoting passages from DotE; similar passages are almost completely absent from all other Gazeteers - even in much derided Thyatis, where there are some, the indications aren't nearly as harsh and grim as with respect to Alphatia (". . .they treat their slaves as we treat our convicts, and treat their freemen as we treat our slaves. They are often a cruel people." Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.2). >> funny....i cannot think of a single concrete reference that supports the above. as far as i am concerned it is subject to the writer's personal feelings and opinions on the matter. << Well, if you can't, then again, you might want to check out DotE - I know you won't believe anything I say on the subject, so you can check it out in the source materiel itself; but it does specifically say that the business can be stripped from the Freeman and they'll find themselves reduced to Servant status again (if the business *really* failed, then it wouldn't have to be "stripped away" - there would be nothing to strip away). P.16, Player's Guide to Alphatia, under "Freeman". Also, others (such as yourself) are allowed to bring in historical analogies to support their case - but, seemingly, it is objected too when I do that. Well, that (what I described) was historical reality in many places: you had to watch who you offended, or you'd find yourself expropriated from. >> not to make a mountain out of a molehill but the hair length restriction law is centered on the slaves. << No, it isn't "centered on the slaves" - I repeat the quote itself again: "Servants and slaves wear their hair as is dictated to them." (p.14, Player's Guide to Alphatia, under "Hairstyles" - see the specific reference to Servants, not just slaves). As for the restriction on the Servants being merely a "job-related dress code" - well, if that were the case, then they could pin it up or wair a hair net or a hat or something while on the job. But that clearly isn't the intention: they're lumped in with the slaves on purpose, for a reason. It says "It's a sign of favor to let a servant or slave grow his or her hair out longer." It doesn't say it's a job-related decision. >> if the dresscode demands are too much then the servant can simply leave that employer to find work elsewhere. << I've covered that in another post, at length, so I'll avoid being repetitious here. >> the alph superiority complex is probably equal to those seen in elves and dwarves. << And I never find it endering in elves, either (I haven't seen as much of it in dwarves, but that might be because there isn't as much written about them). Anyhow, I in effect acceeded to much of what your response consisted of when I said (I'm allowed to quote back my own words, I assume): "again, it's true that lots of people (most, in fact) tend to think they're better than those other folks, but the Alphatians are on an extreme end of that spectrum", so here's a case where we're not really disagreeing, except in the sense that you see Alphatia's jingoism and xenophobia as justifiable, which is certainly your right - just as it's my right to not see it as endeering or justifiable. >> Once again the assumptions of alph society are being used to draw up comparisons to the other magic related nations. << Which is what you yourself recomended as a better basis of comparison. I can quote from your own words if you'd like, but people tend to dislike it when I do that, so I'll only do it if you agree to allow me to. If not, people can look back and see what you said anyhow, no big deal. >> the way things were set out...Kara seems the penned as it takes the alph, thy, and elf aspects and crams them into a single nation. << I guess I don't understand the point you're making here, in part because I'm not understand what you mean by "the penned". Rather than risk mis-interpreting you, I'll just ask you if you'd please clarify that statement. Or, if it's not that important, or if you'd rather not, then we can leave it at that. No biggie either way. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:08:34 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ruhland wrote: > > >> Actually the 2-10% range does not came from my personal preferencies, I > just took it from different (and not coherent) AD&D sources. The DM's > handbook gives the lower figure, while the High level campaign gives the > higher one. << > > Well, the problem with putting too much weight on those figures is that TSR > has never published a game setting that follows them (or anything near to > following the "demography chart" of levels found in High Level Campaigns). > So I kind of look at them with a jaundiced eye, myself. . . > IMO, those charts are the result of good intentions, which are always overpowered by the need to set the NPCs to a challenging level: while 1st level characters will stay clear of even a lowly squad of 0-level town militiamen, 9th level PCs will see this as an opportunity to kill/rob citizens and get away with it. So we have town guards composed of 5th level fighters, etc. For good PCs, the best example is X11, where the Shadow Lord rules a country which is apparently underpopulated, but has an army of 5th level fighters (and not just some elite units, but 1/2 of his human army!) Another example: low-level setting -> Karameikos -> Duke Stefan's bodyguards are 2nd level fighters. High-level setting -> Norwold -> King Ericall's bodyguards are 12th level knights (IIRC). However, there is no serious reason why the average knight of Ericall's court should be as powerful as the most powerful Karameikans. The whole Norwold seem to exist only as a High-level version of Karameikos. The effect is similar to that of those old adventure modules where the PCs were going to find enough magic items to equip an army: basic rules of logic (even those clearly stated in the "generic" material) are ignored in order to provide challenge/reward to the PCs. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:46:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > But keep in mind that Alphatian Aristocrats aren't nobles -- they have > no titles or land, and they still have last names (like Servants and > Freemen but unlike Gentry and Lords). Their only real "noble" perk > seems to be the ability to push around poor mundaners -- and I can > think of many examples in both Mystara and the real world where > people who were definitely not of the nobility had similar privileges. > Actually, DotE says that while a first level wizard "may not own anything more than one dirty robe, [but] she soon will". Aristocrats are apparently able to raise money fast enough, probably through bullying commoners (Ah, you insulted me - I require immediate compensation or I'll have you whipped!), or protecting commoners from other wizards (mafia-style!). > As for class breakdowns, I think that Gaz 7 and the Savage Coast > material give Mystara-specific class breakdowns and percentages > of the population that have classes -- I would use these figures in > preference to any material from more generic sources. > Uhm, Gaz 7 doesn't have much info on class breakdown, save for the percentage of NM vs classed characters. Here are some comments. Gaz 7 figures Adventurers 1% Non-adventurer Dwarves 2% F11-36 2% F3-10 10% F1-2 15% =================================== Classed 30% NM, armed but unskilled 10% NM, non-combatant 20% NM, unfit for combat 40% =================================== Unclassed 70% Comments Adventures: 1% is reasonable for the Northern Reaches, and this includes all mages and clerics. Non-combatant Dwarves: this have no reason to be classed. They should be 0-level dwarves, IMO. F1-2: this are guards and army recruits. IMO, they should be 0-level characters, skilled in weapon use (notice that there aren't "NM, armed and skilled": why?). Total classed population: 27% possible army members (all fighters or thieves, not counting adventurers and dwarves), when the suggested maximum levy is 20% (per Expert rules, IIRC). And a 20% levy isn't normally used, so at least the last 10% should be a low-quality militia, made of 0-level recruits. Conclusion: if we bring F1-2 and non-combatant dwarves under the unclassed population, we have 87% unclassed, 13% classed, quite similar to the "high-level campaign" figure of 90%/10%. P.S.: I could not locate the SC figures you mentioned, so I'm not able to comment on them. Sorry. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:22:52 -0600 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Leroy Van Camp III Subject: Re: "Mystaran stores". MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan meandered fecklessly... > I feel bad saying this, but they're actually still in stock, they've just > moved to a different page. http://store.wizards.com/product/TSR_LastCall.htm > According to that page and popular rumor, anything unsold as of May 31 will > be destroyed. It's not just a rumor; over on the FR list Jim Butler has stated several times it will be destroyed. > I don't know why they'd rather destroy the stuff than sell > it, Tax write-offs. Leroy Van Camp III malacoda@uswest.net http://www.users.uswest.net/~malacoda/TarkasBrainLabIV.html ICQ #20039817 "My hamster had five babies last week. This morning when I looked in the cage she had ate two of them little babies. What the heck. Had a couple myself." Earl, Red Meat ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:35:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Even so, the modern equivalent of Aristocracy (political class + >capitalists + top management) doesn't reach 20% of the population. As James pointed out in a recent post, the Alphatian Aristocracy isn't nearly as privileged as the term "aristocracy" indicates, it's just that the entire political system is designed to benefit them and not others. The modern American equivalent of the Alphatian Aristocracy, I'd argue, are whites who come from middle-class to wealthy families (I'd rather not get too much into this on the list, since it's pretty off-topic. If anyone would like to take exception to this, please do it via private e-mail). >Old Alphatia isn't a good example - magically, modern Alphatia has just >a fraction of the power of Old Alphatia: IMO, it's like comparing modern >Europe/America with Industrial revolution-age countries. Hence, my comparison of modern Alphatia to industrial revolution-age countries of the RW :-) The lack of farming in Old Alphatia was cited as evidence that, even without devoting massive portions of their population to agriculture modern Alphatia could still feed itself. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:40:31 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >People adventuring "in their spare time" seems much like "ierendi >tourism industry". Also, the average middle-age peasant or town labourer >didn't enjoyed much spare time. yeah, spare time isn't exactly how I should've phrased that. I meant more that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily be full-time adventurers, but they still may have adventured earlier in their lives or they may fight the occasional (insert monster here) to defend their farm/family/home/church/whatever. As for comparing Mystara to the middle-ages, I'll refer you to my previous modernity rant (and won't blame you at all if you just don't want to read it) :-) >Also, there must be a difference between "magic-rich" and "munchkin" ;) Hear, hear! But that doesn't mean that 15% of the population can't be a first-level character rather than a "Normal Human." Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:35:46 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks for the links; these helped me clear most of the dieties, but I still need Immortal equivalents for these: Eillestraee (FR) Jergal (FR) Kelemvor (FR) Moander (FR) Celestian (GH) > >Try this site for Forgotten Realms >http://www.math.auth.gr/~bchr/worlds.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:41:39 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion In-Reply-To: <20000506193546.21134.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:35 5/6/00 IDT, Eyal Fleminger wrote: >Celestian (GH) I don't know which Mystara Immortal he'd line up with, but Celestian is the god of the night sky and space. (WHY such a diety existed pre-Spelljammer, I have no idea.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:57:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion In-Reply-To: <20000506125131.46808.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:51 PM 5/6/00 IDT, you wrote: > >Forgotten Realms: (the phrases in quotes are from the gods' descriptions in "Faiths and Avatars") >Eillistraee She's not in F&A (probly in P&P, which I don't own). I seem to recall that she's the good goddess of the Drow, though (from a Dragon mag). No equivalent that I can see. Maybe a Shadowelf Immortal that isn't widely known? >Jergal Not in F&A, and I've never even heard of him/her/it myself. Sorry. >Kelemvor "Death, the dead." Nice, abrupt portfolio. Given his neutral stance towards the dead generally, I'd say that he doesn't really have an equivalent that currently exists. His portfolio would be neatly covered by Thanatos, though, I'd say. >Kossuth "Elemental fire, fire elementalists, purification through fire." Sounds a lot like Rathanos to me. They're even on a similar power level. (These guys probably hang out together in Pandius. :) >Moander "Rotting death, decay, corruption." The portfolio would be a pretty close match to Atzanteotl's, but the actual persona is quite different. The persona of Moander seems more closely linked to Vaprak... in any case, I don't think there is a real equivalent. Perhaps Atzanteotl usurped much of Moander's portfolio (thus explaining Moander's decline in power over the years.) >Shaundakul "Travel, exploration, long-range traders, miners, caravans, windghosts." Some of that at least sounds like Asterius (traders, merchants). >Greyhawk: (the phrases in quotes are from the gods' descriptions in "Temple of Elemental Evil") >Boccob "Magic, arcane knowledge." Probably Rad. >Celestian "Stars, space, wanderers." Dunno. Maybe Benekander? (He came from the stars.) >St. Cuthbert As patron of "Wisdom, common sense, truth, forthrightness, and dedication" I's say his "equivalents" would be either Petra (fighting clerics), Diulanna (willpower), or Tarastia (justice; revenge). I suggest the latter based on St. Cuthbert's portfolio for the 3rd Edition game. >Ehlonna "Forests, flowers, and meadows." I'd say either Terra or Djaea. >Fharlanghn "Horizons, distance, travel." Hmm... I'd say I have no idea... >Heironeous "Chivalry, honor, justice, valor." I'd say it sounds like Thor. Or possibly Halav. >Iggwilv She's not a goddess, IIRC. Just "Mother of Witches." Don't know an equivalent Immortal. Otherwise I'd say Carnelia de Belcadiz y Fedorias. ;) >Istus "Fate, destiny." I'd say Khoronus or maybe Tyche. >Wee Jas "Magic, death." Interesting combo. I'd say Alphaks might fit (though WJ is a greater god). Possibly Loki or Atzanteotl. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:13:24 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I forgot to state the fields of interest for each of these, so see below: Eillestraee (FR) - music, combat, good-aligned drow Jergal (FR) - death (kelemvor's right-hand man, apparently), but anti-undead Kelemvor (FR) - death, but opposing undead Moander (FR) - corruption, evil, vegetables :-) Celestian (GH) - space BTW, is anyone interested in the completed list once it's done? If so tell me; I'll email it or post it if there are several people (have to wait for wednesday or so, though). --Eyal ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:21:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper ha scritto: > In a message dated 2000-05-06 6:15:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Scarole@TIN.IT writes: > > << Has anybody thought that Ludwig von Hendriks is none other than > Dick Dastardly??? >> > > It doesn't work -- Bargle is definitely a human and not a lupin. What > happened to Muttly? Well....ain't Ludwig working with Kol, in 1016? Iulius et cetera ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 15:50:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> a commoner raping another commoner is penalized the cost to restore the victim's health.<< Actually, it never specifically says anything in these laws about health. It says "restore them to as close to their previous state as possible," which in many of these cases might just be mind-wiping them to forget what happened to them. > > Blackheart was offered as it seemed the best choice where evil could be recognized by all of alphatian society. << Yes - Wizards from all over Alphatia travel there when they want to conduct experiments that they wish to hide from the light of day. Doesn't really speak well of them, except to the degree that it does show that some of them do have a sense of shame. >> that's just the thing. the alph discriminations are not that severe if you look at them as what they really are. slaves asside....the law is not that big a deal. the hair thing certainly is no big deal (if it ever was one). the spider silk crap is very minor. << Actually, they are pretty severe if you look at them as what they really are - emblematic of the society's attitudes. As you pointed out in your other post, one must note not only what is stated but also what is left unstated. I can see what your interpretation is - that the examples of oppressive, restrictive laws (like the hair and cloths thing, and slaying of slaves, and limitations on Servants, and. . .) are, you believe, the only ones, so they're isolated and minor - that the "unstated" general impression is much less restrictive, coersive, and tyrannical. I interpret them as emblematic of general attitudes - that they highlight, and are used as examples, just how restrictive, coersive, and tyrannical Alphatian society is. Especially when you contrast with the same categories in Thyatis (I.E. contrast social structure, or law codes, etc.) And, contrary to what one might think, the two Empires were clearly meant to be contrasted with each other (see for example p.2, DotE DMSB, "Introduction", which does just that. Note also that this page is also where it says, explicitly, that Alphatia is a place ". . .where the whims of the Empress and her council become law - even if only for a day - and where domination of sobordinate nations is maintained through fear and intimidation, or through exccentric blood-ties, or through sheer magical might [which is really a way of generating fear and intimidation - Porph], rather than by managerial efficiency and impartial law." DotE really is a good source, if one looks at it carefully). So it comes down, really, to a different interpretation of these sorts of regulations/restrictions/"laws" - interpretting whether they are isolated, unrepresentative examples that aren't so bad, or whether they are representative examples that highlight how things are. That's why these "molehills" as you termed them have become such a focus of both sides in these discussions - because they either are, or aren't, illustrative of the larger issues/points. I have a clear opinion on that, and you do, too. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I can hazard a guess that you're pretty sure you're right. Someday perhaps I'll have to e-mail Aaron Allston and ask if he'd be willing to shead some light on what his intentions were there (IIRC I saw his e-mail addy, or one of them, on his web pages awhile ago. I didn't think to save it, though, so I'll have to go retrieve it sometime if I get all that curious.) >> citizenship. and yes the alphs do have their system of dole. The Bellissarian Bread Basket and south eastern kingdoms provide ample grains for the populace. all are provided to the population for the basic diet. that reference is in DotE but i do not recall where it is exactly. << I don't recall any reference in DotE to it being "provided to the population" for free, which doesn't mean their isn't such a reference - but I'd be greatful if you could provide the page number. >> The Alpher society is indeed well suited to the mages living there. But for the peons, it must be truly hell on earth. No rights, no hopes. They are dung, useful only as "cheap labour" (as it says in DoE), << << more assumptions. >> That when someone makes a reference to DotE's depiction of things you term it "more assumptions" is quite telling. . .so far things have gone fairly well in these discussions this time, but your tendency to just dismiss people's statements without bothering to refute them I find distressing. Anyhow, since the last thing I want is for things to devolve into another spitefest, I'll just leave it at that. >> note the word "can" is used and that does not mean they do. << If they don't have such an inclination then there'd be no reason to explicitly point out that they can kill slaves at any time for any reason or none - one of the, possibly few, very clear and not at all vague statements in DotE (p.16, Player's Guide to Alphatia, under "Classes of Society," in the description of Slaves). >> however i would add that slavery is legal in alphatia (and thyatis) and that slavery is exactly that. << The difference in their status is quite telling. Again, the similarities between the status of Alphatian *Servants* and Thyatian slaves is quite. . ..instructive. There's only one difference, and it is a *possibly* significant one - but I explained elsewhere just why too much shouldn't be made of that difference, so rather than repeat it I'll just refer back to my remarks, already made in another post that discusses that topic in depth. >> alph military. . .attributes of the same society that would require the nonspellcasters to be as individualistic as their aristocratic counterparts << Also telling is the fact that Alphatian soldiers have the status of Servants: that is, little better than Thyatian slaves. On the vaunted Alphatian individualism & freedom, here's what DotE has to say about that "Alphatians, as a people - their ruling classes, anyway - are chaotic, free, and individual. They believe in freedom of thought and choice. . .but only for those privileged enough to wield magic. Those who cannot utilize any sort of magic are destined to serve in one fashion of another." (DotE, Player's Guide to Alphatia, p.13, under "National Character") - so, no - attributes of the Alphatian society require the exact *opposite* of individualism of their non-spellcasters: they require servility. Making armies out of de facto serfs is not usually very effective. Anyhow, as always, it's been an interesting, vigorous, and challenging discussion with you. I hope things will continue in this vein. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:27:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Mystara Books (was: [MYSTARA] D J Heinrich =KevinTStein) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks, i might try to get the first quest ones. i have the others. mortus. > > i've only ever heard of the penhaligan and dragonlord trilogys > > never heard of any other mystara novels. > > does anybody have a complete list please. > > Unfortunately the list is very short. > > Under the Dungeons and Dragons Label: The Penhaligon Trilogy. > Under the Mystara label: The Dragonlord Trilogy (set mostly in Glantri, > Ethengar, and other planes) and The Black Vessel (Set on the Savage > Coast). > Under the First Quest Label: Son of Dawn (set initially on the Isle of > Dawn, returing Shadow Elf children to the Canolbarth) and Rogues to Riches > (set at least at the beginning in Landfall, Norwold. i didn't finish it, > so I don't know where all it goes) > > Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:07:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > BTW, is anyone interested in the completed list once it's done? If so tell > me; I'll email it or post it if there are several people (have to wait for > wednesday or so, though). > --Eyal Never ask if we are interested before sending a work...shoot always before asking... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:01:58 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agathokles wrote: > Non-combatant Dwarves: this have no reason to be classed. They should = be > 0-level dwarves, IMO. Well, in OD&D there is no such thing as a 0-level Dwarf... (AFAIK) =20 > F1-2: this are guards and army recruits. IMO, they should be 0-level > characters, skilled in weapon use (notice that there aren't "NM, armed > and skilled": why?). And in OD&D there is no such thing as a skilled (as in "skilled in = weapons use") 0-level character (since you can't have weapon masteries = when you're a NM). > Total classed population: 27% possible army members (all fighters or > thieves, not counting adventurers and dwarves), when the suggested > maximum levy is 20% (per Expert rules, IIRC). And a 20% levy isn't > normally used, so at least the last 10% should be a low-quality = militia, > made of 0-level recruits. Yes, there's 27% POTENTIAL, but not actual army members. It clearly = states that these include "guards, street-tough town dwellers and = frontier settlers". And in Ostland (and to a degree Soderfjord), you = have to count the jarls' men, who are not part of the actual military, = but raiders. Sure, they will fight for their country, but not in an = organized army; they haven't been trained for that (IMO). > Conclusion: if we bring F1-2 and non-combatant dwarves under the > unclassed population, we have 87% unclassed, 13% classed, quite = similar > to the "high-level campaign" figure of 90%/10%. I DO see your point, but I think that in the Northern Reaches = (particularly Ostland) the presence of additional fighters is justified, = since a typical job description would be "Raider, with good combat = experience". I can see how the figures in GAZ7 wouldn't make sense in = countries that subsisted mainly on farming or trade, however. And I do = admit that the figures could be adjusted slightly when using AD&D (hell, = they could be adjusted by any DM, according to his/her whim), but IMO = the numbers make sense for the Northern Reaches. In Ostland we've got = raiders, in Vestland frontier settlers, and in Soderfjord = uhmm...bullies?!? (Ok, so I'm not so sure about Soderfjord). Enough ranting... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 15:22:21 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Most of the suggestions you've gotten look very good. I've just added a bit of input here and there... >>Eillistraee > >She's not in F&A (probly in P&P, which I don't own). I seem to recall that >she's the good goddess of the Drow, though (from a Dragon mag). No >equivalent that I can see. Maybe a Shadowelf Immortal that isn't widely known? Well, if she is the good goddess of the Drow, why not let Rafael have at least some of her powers? He's a lot "gooder" than Atzanteotl with the Shattenalfen. >Jergal (FR) - death (kelemvor's right-hand man, apparently), but anti-undead >Kelemvor (FR) - death, but opposing undead Depends on the setting you want to use. Thanatos might work, although he doesn't seem like he'd oppose the undead. In Sind, Ixion is worshipped as an immortal of death, destruction, and reincarnation/rebirth (as well as many other things). Perhaps Ixion could work for some of Jergal and Kelemvor's aspects as well. >>Moander > >"Rotting death, decay, corruption." The portfolio would be a pretty close >match to Atzanteotl's, but the actual persona is quite different. The >persona of Moander seems more closely linked to Vaprak... in any case, I >don't think there is a real equivalent. Perhaps Atzanteotl usurped much of >Moander's portfolio (thus explaining Moander's decline in power over the >years.) IMO you should probably create Moander (with or without a new name) as a unique immortal of entropy if you want to use him on Mystara. Atzanteotl is awfully active on Mystara, so I'd say that would be a good excuse for why Moander isn't very big on Mystara, but I'm not sure that it would adequately explain Moander's decline in FR since Atzanteotl (to my knowledge at least) doesn't get involved there :-) Then again, I personally think shambling mounds have no place in Mystara, and I tend to associate them with Moander. >>Fharlanghn > >"Horizons, distance, travel." Hmm... I'd say I have no idea... Asterius would likely be a good choice for this one as well as for Shaundakal. Or you might consider dividing their spells up based on whether they focus on land-based or sea-based travel: land goes to Asterius, sea to Minroth or Protius. >>Istus > >"Fate, destiny." I'd say Khoronus or maybe Tyche. Based on that description, Yav could work well too. >>Wee Jas > >"Magic, death." Interesting combo. I'd say Alphaks might fit (though WJ is >a greater god). Possibly Loki or Atzanteotl. At least we know what to do with Brannart if he ever attains immortality :-) Among the existing immortals, I'd agree with Alphaks. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:45:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities (was "Un-Alphatia") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizards Shopper wrote: (snip) David???? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:45:16 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Stupid Question for Cthuludrew MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have a question for Cthuludrew, but I will ask it on the list because maybe it has puzzled others than me (yes, I know- I'm a stupid Thyatian soldier, every wizard would have been able to tell, bla bla bla- do you also want to tell a joke about Thyatians? well, I'll do: how many Thyatians are there needed to build a city? 20'000. 10'000 to destroy a foreign city and 10'000 to build a new on the same site). * Question is: "Why are all your replies accompanied by the subject Re:[MYSTARA] Re:[MYSTARA] (Subject) instead of the normal Re:[MYSTARA] (Subject) By the way: I think this could win the prize for the Most Stupid Question of Year 2'000. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:45:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was"Un-Alphatia")] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'd say it's akin to the old practice of > selling commands to those with the money (but not necessarily the ability) to > afford them. I'd imagine most Alphatian mages would start out as lower ranking > officers (except in some rare cases, like the IMO "elite" Boltmen) and would > probably buy their way (or rarely, be promoted by ability) to higher > positions. The thing that really surprised me in the Wrath War is that this problem seems to be a major one (and a very destructive one, along with zzonga doped officials) in the Thyatian Army, while Alphatia remains untouched by it. Well. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:45:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Just a quote from a NG... What's a NG? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:51:27 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stupid Question for Cthuludrew In-Reply-To: <3914A07C.2993BA7E@tin.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:45 AM 5/7/00 +0200, Caroletti wrote: > >I have a question for Cthuludrew, but I will ask it on the list because >maybe it has puzzled others than me Actually, it came up earlier in the week. :) >Question is: "Why are all your replies accompanied by the subject >Re:[MYSTARA] Re:[MYSTARA] (Subject) >instead of the normal >Re:[MYSTARA] (Subject) Dunno. It doesn't seem to happen when I post from my home account (jsmill@wans.net), but it does happen when I post from my amexmail account. I checked into it, and there isn't anything I could do about it (it's a free account, so I'm not going to complain too much anyway). I've been trying to keep an eye on it and edit the replies when I think of it, but I don't always remember. Sorry if it causes any confusion and/or just general angst. :) ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:44:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: vini magus's humble campaign. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 May 2000 03:41:52 Vinicius R. de Moraes wrote: > >The Stalker wrote: > >vini wrote (snip) > > >> Don't sell yourself short! If Francis Ford Coppola can say "Steal from the best" with pride, then so can you :) >> For example, I've received a lot of very positive feedback on my 'Calamity Star' bit, though I thought it was a woefully unoriginal copy of the doomsday-prophecies of Nostradamus. Yet people like it, and it's driving my players *insane* with paranoia (ah, the good life of a DM...) ;) > >Hum... so taking ideas is not that bad? What/where is the thin line the >divides copy from "getting an idea or two"? Thanks for the support. > Ah, where the line is drawn is a *LOT* harder to find out! For instance, I remember many good fantasy good I read in my youth, which I loved because they told adventures unlike any I'd ever heard. So imagine how disappointed I was by them once I read Tolkien's 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' - almost all the stuff in the old books I loved was clearly inspired by Tolkien's works or shamelessly stolen from it. Then, if you go on reading, you'll find that Tolkien isn't that original either - he merely dusted off old tales and retold them in a newer, more accessible form. His inspirations are norse mythology (I should know being a Dane) and 'Beowulf' (the oldest English text known, which describes the adventures of the hero Beowulf, among them a battle with a dragon, in the lands of (surprise, surprise) Denmark and Sweden - norse mythology once again). As T.S. Eliot once said: 'There are no new ideas'... Having tried to write original stuff for my campaign, I find that it is impossible - it's only a matter of time before I realize where I stole it from. The only consolation is that all authors and writers do just the same thing - even the famous ones. Just look at George Lucas' stories (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Willow) and you'll be able to find his inspiration if you look long and hard enough. (snip) > >> I wish you'd been a bit clearer on this idea. What you could do if you want to please us all is make a plot outline and post it here as an adventure idea - it's sounds interesting IMO. >> >> - The Stalker of Alphatia > >OKAY. You're a nice man. Thanks for the interest. Um, thanks. You're the first one to call me that I guess ;) >Let's see: they met a lovely teenager, a high level one (where does a >17-years girl learn casting all those *cool* spells? So early!). She is >a AIR Elementalist. Baby face, imagine a good-looking - and looking like >good-hearted, even naive - girl. Yes. >Imagine. > No problem for an Alphatian :) (snip) > >I've showed all the places on the maps, all the time. They could now >realise they've walked a triangular path. Extrapolating, they could >suppose the 4th was on the river, North of Krakatos. A square, a >lozenge. "Water, water everywhere...". An imponent tower in the middle >of the river. the Karameikans PCs know the place and the mage. So he is >evil, at least? They find entrances below water level, can enter using >them or the main gate. Water elementals, fundamentals, kins (as always, >you can put related monsters that you like most; it seems that our water >monsters fanatic is Mischa) etc. > You could also have the entire place UNDER water! However, you would need to give the PCs the means to breathe underwater, like the Water Breathing spell (3rd level wizard spell), which can be divided among the PCs. That would put a bit of pressure on the PCs, though, since the spell has a time limit and thus puts a time limit on their mission (and can possible mean that they drown if they are trapped underwater!) >Now something: the man is NOT evil, he is charmed. By his fame and by >talking before killing everything on site, they can find it out. I gave >_lots_ of XP for that. > Good! PCs should be given bonus XPs when they listen to clues and talk rather than go into killing mode, thinking "If it moves - kill it! If it doesn't move - kill it anyway!" ;) >He can have the Grail or it might be with someone at the CENTER of the >lozengle, who might be a Wild Mage (I like the pyramid idea, that is, 4 >elements and 1 wild making a 5 vertices system) or an evil cleric. >Which of the three do you prefer? Or a 4th? > How about an underwater pyramid? (I don't know how it got there - an earthquake perhaps. Could fit with your volcano idea perhaps...). Don't ask me about Wild Mages, though. I hate them. >I told you that was going to be long. If you flame me, I'll die, for I >have no prtection from fire. None. > How about a nice Protection from Fire spell? Would sound good? Almost free... That's us Alphatians, right? Just sign at the bottom of this piece of paper in blood, please ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:36:00 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Magic is hereditary? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scientifically speaking, I'd say magic has a complex genetics as hair color, height, and intelligence. I mean, these traits are ruled by more than one single gene, and thus not easily traced, not like hereditary baldness or complicated genetics enough! And these are humans we are talking about, not fruit flies or green peas. ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Sullivan To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Magic is hereditary? > > What's that proof? > > > Ericall and Mariella are probably the most famous examples: children of > Eriadna and the fighter Torenal, they have no magical ability despite > repeated attempts from a very young age to train them. > > Also, the sons of Etienne and Catharine (though this example doesn't quite > fit with the idea that magic use is hereditary) are both without magical > ability, leading to the various problems of succession in Nouvelle > Averoigne. > > Patrick > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:40:15 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I suspect that the heredity of magic talent must be more complicated than > a single pair of Mendelian genes, as I can cite several cases in Gaz 3 where > two arcaners produced mundaner offspring with absolutely no talent for > magic. On the other hand, the children of Torenal and Eriadna seem to > support the Mendelian recessive theory quite well. It is possible that there > are multiple genes at work, with the recessive Alphatian gene being the one > at work among (most) Alphatians but other genes having their effects as > well. My thought exactly. These are humans, not fruitflies or green peas. But magic being magical, there could also be a non-scientific random wild factor involved, that sometimes, even a scientificlaly genetically un-magical person would find himself wielding magic. That is, after all, the way of magic, isn't it? Kit Navarro ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:25:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Savage Coast class breakdown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 1:49:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << P.S.: I could not locate the SC figures you mentioned, so I'm not able to comment on them. Sorry. >> It is given in the Savage Baronies boxed set. Percentages of classed characters are higher than normal because of the more challenging conditions (such as the Red Curse) along the Savage Coast. The percentage of classed individuals is about 25% among most of the Savage Coast and slightly higher in the Savage Baronies. Here are the exact figures for the Savage Baronies: Vilaverde: 01-70 Common 71-85 Warrior 86-94 Rogue 95-97 Wizard 98-99 Priest 100 Other (Psionicist, multiclass, dual-class, etc.) Texeiras: 01-70 Common 71-80 Warrior 81-95 Rogue 96-98 Wizard 99 Priest 100 Other (Psionicist, multiclass, dual-class, etc.) Torreon: 01-70 Common 71-85 Warrior 86-88 Rogue 89-92 Wizard 93-96 Priest 97-100 Other (mostly multiclassed elves and half-elves) Narvaez: 01-70 Common 71-85 Warrior 86-88 Rogue (N/A) Wizard 89-98 Priest 99-100 Other (mostly dual-classed humans, excluding psionicists but including wizards and druids) Gargona: 01-75 Common 76-82 Warrior 83-90 Rogue 91-95 Wizard 96-98 Priest 99 Psionicist 100 Other Almarron: 01-75 Common 76-85 Warrior 86-91 Rogue 92-95 Wizard 96-99 Priest 100 Other Saragon: 01-67 Common 68-76 Warrior 77-84 Rogue 85-94 Wizard 95-98 Priest 99 Psionicist 100 Other Guadalante: 01-68 Common 69-84 Warrior 85-90 Rogue 91-94 Wizard 95-99 Priest 100 Other Cimarron: 01-65 Common 66-85 Warrior 86-90 Rogue 91-94 Wizard 95-98 Priest 99-100 Other (mostly multiclassed dwarves and dual-classed humans) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:25:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 12:26:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << Its still unusual and more than a little fascist to actually have a law prohibiting it. I doubt many peasants in Karameikos can afford cloth of gold robes either, but at least there isn't a law prohibiting them from wearing it should they manage to get hold of some. Peasants in Karameikos have preferences, but thats due to culture, not due to the law. And as for Darokin, they wear whatever they can afford. Theres more to it than that though - what does this rather petty law say about Alphatian society? Its obviously intended to widen the class gaps between mages and mundanes. The Haves and Have Nots. >> Well -- most real world European nations in pre-modern times had strict "sumptuary laws" which set quite definite restrictions on what people could wear. While details differed, there were certain features of clothing that marked one as male or female, noble or common, secular or religious, and specified exact occupation, rank, and social classes in many cases. Anyone who violated these laws was in at least as much trouble as an Alphatian who did so. (One example: Joan of Arc ran afoul of these laws, among many others, when she was captured by the English.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:25:34 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Nice Darokin (was Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 1:05:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << Darokin isn't my favourite nation I must admit because the place is just too darned nice... >> Of course, given their geography they have to be nice -- Darokin is literally indefensible! However, it does have a lot to recommend it as a homeland for player characters, as it is a centrally located nation with values very similar to those of the modern secular West. Thus, most players require very little mental adjustment to play characters from that nation, and it is a simple matter for them to travel in virtually any direction to get to a nation that offers interesting opportunities for adventure. Once they arrive they are generally welcome, as Darokin has few enemies -- Hule alone hates them, but nearly everyone else (including Minrothad, their main commercial rivals) will give them a fair chance to prove themselves. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:12:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-06 4:15:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Scarole@TIN.IT writes: << Well....ain't Ludwig working with Kol, in 1016? >> Okay -- you got it covered after all! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Nice Darokin (was Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 May 2000 00:25:34 EDT Wizards Shopper writes: > In a message dated 2000-05-06 1:05:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: > > << Darokin isn't my favourite nation I must admit because the place > is just > too > darned nice... >> > > Of course, given their geography they have to be nice -- Darokin is > literally > indefensible! However, it does have a lot to recommend it as a > homeland > for player characters, as it is a centrally located nation with > values very > similar to those of the modern secular West. Thus, most players > require > very little mental adjustment to play characters from that nation, > and it is > a simple matter for them to travel in virtually any direction to get > to a > nation > that offers interesting opportunities for adventure. Once they > arrive they > are generally welcome, as Darokin has few enemies -- Hule alone > hates > them, but nearly everyone else (including Minrothad, their main > commercial > rivals) will give them a fair chance to prove themselves. BTW, anyone who thinks Darokin is too "nice" can should take a look at my Houses of Darokin series (available at Shawn's site). Aaron Nowack ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:05:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Just a quote from a NG... > > What's a NG? Newsgroup... that one was from alt.talk.royalty (not a regular reader I might add :). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 18:17:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: deity-Immortal conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eyal Fleminger wrote: > I'd appreciate it if > anyone could give suggestions for equivalents for the following deities: > I don't know much about those worlds, but the Planescape box lists Kossuth: an evil elemental lord, from the Plane of Fire. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:48:55 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Stupid Question for Cthuludrew MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sorry if it causes any confusion and/or just general > angst. :) > ----- > > Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen It doesn't. It just puzzled me... Iulius Sergius Scaevola the Cap of P.L. Thyatian Army ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:48:02 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Wild Mages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Stalker wrote: >How about an underwater pyramid? (I don't know how it got there - an >earthquake perhaps. Could fit with your volcano idea perhaps...). Don't ask >me about Wild Mages, though. I hate them. Why, if I might ask? I think they add a certain unpredictable (hence: "wild") element to the magic. I think it is nice, also to keep the PCs on their toes, because it will show that not every spellcaster can control the, in my opinion, rather unconttrolabe "substance of magic". In my campaign they have come across a wild mage (they don't know this yet), who has given them some assignments, which they are doing right now. One situation occurred, when they were walking down "The Nest" and someone decided to throw a hand of coins to the beggars. Other beggars saw this and decide to try and rob them. The mage tried to cast a spell and it went wrong; the robbers were killed by a Living Wall (I just wanted to make it really over the top, and it worked). The PCs realised he was powerful but couldn't work out why he did this (he could have casted another, less harmful, spell, they said). The mage in his turn kept his mouth shut, because he has experienced some problems before with his wild magic. I think, it can add a nice touch to the game (even the fact that something can damage the bystanders, including the PCs). Regards, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:04:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: First and second uplifts: The rise of the Near-Humans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Knott ha scritto: > In the pre-history of Mystara, Very interesting! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:08:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Wild Mages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >How about an underwater pyramid? (I don't know how it got there - an > >earthquake perhaps. Could fit with your volcano idea perhaps...). Don't ask > >me about Wild Mages, though. I hate them. Wild mages rock. In a game system where magic is more like science, wild mages are the one tiny part of AD&D magic that isn't cold and sterile. > Why, if I might ask? I think they add a certain unpredictable (hence: > "wild") element to the magic. I think it is nice, also to keep the PCs on > their toes, because it will show that not every spellcaster can control the, > in my opinion, rather unconttrolabe "substance of magic". > In my campaign they have come across a wild mage (they don't know this yet), > who has given them some assignments, which they are doing right now. One > situation occurred, when they were walking down "The Nest" and someone > decided to throw a hand of coins to the beggars. Other beggars saw this and > decide to try and rob them. The mage tried to cast a spell and it went > wrong; the robbers were killed by a Living Wall (I just wanted to make it > really over the top, and it worked). The PCs realised he was powerful but > couldn't work out why he did this (he could have casted another, less > harmful, spell, they said). The mage in his turn kept his mouth shut, > because he has experienced some problems before with his wild magic. I > think, it can add a nice touch to the game (even the fact that something can > damage the bystanders, including the PCs). I've seen a similar thing happen, except that it involved a mirror of opposition... Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Oliver Subject: Re: Modernity rant In-Reply-To: <200005070705.DAA07174@smtp.uky.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At Sat, 6 May 2000 12:21:05 +0200, someone wrote: > > > > > I agree that a world without evils is no fun for adveturing (although i > > prefer my villains to look more like Hel, Eriadna, and Clan Ellerovyn than > > Snidely Whiplash or Ludwig von Hendriks) Who is Clan Ellerovyn and where is published info about them? -o ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:47:36 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacob Skytte wrote: > > Agathokles wrote: > > > Non-combatant Dwarves: this have no reason to be classed. They should be > > 0-level dwarves, IMO. > > Well, in OD&D there is no such thing as a 0-level Dwarf... (AFAIK) > Sure, but this does not mean that those dwarves should be better fighters than the average human soldier (NM!) > > F1-2: this are guards and army recruits. IMO, they should be 0-level > > characters, skilled in weapon use (notice that there aren't "NM, armed > > and skilled": why?). > > And in OD&D there is no such thing as a skilled (as in "skilled in weapons use") 0-level character (since you can't have weapon masteries when you're a NM). > I suppose you mean "skilled" as per Weapon Mastery, which is not the case. In Weapon Mastery terms, they'd have Basic mastery. Also, the Normal Men description in the red boxed set explicitly states that normal men can be soldiers, explorers etc., so they would have to be trained in weapon use. > > Total classed population: 27% possible army members (all fighters or > > thieves, not counting adventurers and dwarves), when the suggested > > maximum levy is 20% (per Expert rules, IIRC). And a 20% levy isn't > > normally used, so at least the last 10% should be a low-quality militia, > > made of 0-level recruits. > > Yes, there's 27% POTENTIAL, but not actual army members. It clearly states that these include "guards, street-tough town dwellers and frontier settlers". And in Ostland (and to a degree Soderfjord), you have to count the jarls' men, who are not part of the actual military, but raiders. Sure, they will fight for their country, but not in an organized army; they haven't been trained for that (IMO). > Yes, but those people "who are not part of the actual military", still count against the total number of recruitable men. > > Conclusion: if we bring F1-2 and non-combatant dwarves under the > > unclassed population, we have 87% unclassed, 13% classed, quite similar > > to the "high-level campaign" figure of 90%/10%. > > I DO see your point, but I think that in the Northern Reaches (particularly Ostland) the presence of additional fighters is justified, since a typical job description would be "Raider, with good combat experience". I can see how the figures in GAZ7 wouldn't make sense in countries that subsisted mainly on farming or trade, however. And I do admit that the figures could be adjusted slightly when using AD&D (hell, they could be adjusted by any DM, according to his/her whim), but IMO the numbers make sense for the Northern Reaches. In Ostland we've got raiders, in Vestland frontier settlers, and in Soderfjord uhmm...bullies?!? (Ok, so I'm not so sure about Soderfjord). > Actually, I can accept the 13% figure as justified, but not a 30% figure. OTOH, less belligerent contries would have lesser scores, down to 2% for, say, Hule, a large agricultural country where the army is mainly composed of mercenary goblinoids. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:55:39 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > >People adventuring "in their spare time" seems much like "ierendi > >tourism industry". Also, the average middle-age peasant or town labourer > >didn't enjoyed much spare time. > > yeah, spare time isn't exactly how I should've phrased that. I meant more > that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily be full-time adventurers, but they > still may have adventured earlier in their lives or they may fight the > occasional (insert monster here) to defend their > farm/family/home/church/whatever. Here is where we disagree: when the NM fight, they do not necessarily receive XPs: no one receives XP for mass combat, for example (at least in AD&D; for the OD&D definition of NM, refer to my reply to Jacob Skytte). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 11:32:45 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Savage Coast class breakdown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wizards Shopper wrote: > > In a message dated 2000-05-06 1:49:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: > > << P.S.: I could not locate the SC figures you mentioned, so I'm not able > to comment on them. Sorry. >> > > It is given in the Savage Baronies boxed set. Thanks. > Percentages of classed > characters are higher than normal because of the more challenging > conditions (such as the Red Curse) along the Savage Coast. The > percentage of classed individuals is about 25% among most of the > Savage Coast and slightly higher in the Savage Baronies. Here are > the exact figures for the Savage Baronies: > In order not to be too boring, I will limit my comments on a few figures, and only on class breakdown. On the NM/classed issue, these figures aren't that different from the Gaz 7 (only, being AD&D, they are even less defensible against the "0-level soldier" critique), so the earlier comments should apply. > Narvaez: > > 99-100 Other (mostly dual-classed humans, excluding psionicists but including > wizards and druids) A 2% of dual-class humans? Well, to qualify for dual class, one must have a (min) 17 in the prime requisite of the second class, and a (min) 15 in the first class. If you do some calculation, you will find that 80% of the Narvaezans who qualify for dual classing *will* actually dual class. Which isn't that much reasonable: I mean, why should someone change career just because he can. Then, some dual class combos will be really rare in Narvaez (ex., the priest who becomes a wizard... or anyone else who becomes a wizard, for that): this means that a lot of potential dualclassers would actually keep their original class... > Gargona: > > 99 Psionicist By the same technique, one could prove that 50% of Gargo�an potential psionicists actually become psionicists (and not, say, diviners or priests or any other class): quite uncommon, on Mystara. That's just an example to show that the tables aren't always reasonable, so also the 70-75% "commoners" figure may be less than realistic -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:51:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Sullivan wrote: > > >Also, there must be a difference between "magic-rich" and "munchkin" ;) > > Hear, hear! But that doesn't mean that 15% of the population can't be a > first-level character rather than a "Normal Human." > It is, because first level characters are the starting point for the higher level ones. The wider the low character base, the more numerous will high level characters be. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:10:26 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oliver wrote: > > Who is Clan Ellerovyn and where is published info about them? They are the Erewan elves of Glantri (you can find the info in the appropriate GAzetteer). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:02:38 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Modernity rant MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Who is Clan Ellerovyn and where is published info about them? > >They are the Erewan elves of Glantri (you can find the info in the >appropriate GAzetteer). As well as G:KoM, the Rules Cyclopedia, and all the Almanacs :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:10:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: Savage Coast class breakdown MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > Narvaez: > > 99-100 Other (mostly dual-classed humans, excluding psionicists but including > wizards and druids) <> Well, the 2% is MOSTLY dual-class, along with all the wizards and druids in the country. Still, your point is well-taken. I'd say that pretty much anyone who shows the aptitude in Narvaez will be accepted into the clergy, and many of them will double-class. Still, I agree that this figure does seem a bit high. > Gargona: > 99 Psionicist <> The exact quote, which David simplifies a bit, is 99-00 Other (about half of these are psionicists if the class is allowed by the DM). I don't use pionics anyway, but if I did, I'd say Gargona's high proportion could be derived in part from psionicists fleeing Narvaez. <> Agreed. I think it's much more dependant on what kind of campaign each DM chooses to run :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:05:17 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Patrick Sullivan Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Post-WotI Possibilities (was"Un-Alphatia")] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Also, the Thothian empire is very spread out- there are relatively few people >for the area involved, and most of them appear to be located on the plains at >the far end of the Isle of Dawn- not very close to the capitol city of Edairo >at all. Even with magical communications and things (possibly assisted by the >pyramid magicks of their Nithian forebears... hmmm, that sounds interesting) >I'd imagine the "eastern" Thothians (as well as the plateau dwellers- what few >there are) are somewhat more independent of the "western" Thothians than not. According to DotE, Edairo has a population of 30,000 and the "surrounding land has a population of 10,000 more." According to the first PWA, Edairo has a population of 27,000 while the national population is 60,000. I'd say that this is supposed to mean that, before WotI, 30,000 people lived in Edairo, 10,000 lived in Ranak and the plains around Edairo, and 20,000 were split up among the Eastern Plains, the upper river valley (what's the name of that river? The River Thothia? Is there any canon source for its name?) and the Escarpment. I suppose you could take it to mean that the 10,000 near Edairo could count the entire valley, while the other 20,000 would be scattered in the East and the Escarpment, but even so, most of the people of Thothia are "near" Edairo (whatever that means, but certainly not the Eastern Plains). I do like the idea of magical communication via pyramids, though :-) Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Sullivan To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Class breakdown (was Re: [MYSTARA] Modernity rant) > >Even so, the modern equivalent of Aristocracy (political class + > >capitalists + top management) doesn't reach 20% of the population. > > > As James pointed out in a recent post, the Alphatian Aristocracy isn't > nearly as privileged as the term "aristocracy" indicates, it's just that the > entire political system is designed to benefit them and not others. The > modern American equivalent of the Alphatian Aristocracy, I'd argue, are > whites who come from middle-class to wealthy families (I'd rather not get > too much into this on the list, since it's pretty off-topic. If anyone > would like to take exception to this, please do it via private e-mail). Maybe I just misunderstand what you are getting at but... The Alphatian aristocracy cannot possibly be compared to "white middle class Americans". Think about that for a minute. On the one hand, an Alphatian mage can kill a non-spellcaster and get away with it in many Alphatian kingdoms. Alphatian spellcasters are the top rung. The very term "middle class" rather detracts from that whole concept of middle rung. As for the racial part of it, I have no idea why you even brought that into the picture. Your point doesn't seem in any way bolstered or diminished by using a particular race. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Alphatian Magic Heredity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ruhland To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alphatian Magic Heredity > > > > Magic is hereditary? > > > Magic is a hereditary trait among the Alphatians, but not nessissarily > outside Alphatia. > > As for the current debate over it, lets just say DotE "strongly implies" in > several places that magic is a hereditary trait; I know for an absolute > fact that I read something that explicitly said that the trait for magic is > hereditary among the Alphatians I definitely agree that DotE strongly hints at magic being hereditary. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:06:45 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Post-WotI Possibilities In-Reply-To: <0c1b01bfb85f$915c1c40$bd317286@pds3.resnet.nau.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:05 PM 5/7/00 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote: > >According to DotE, Edairo has a population of 30,000 and the "surrounding >land has a population of 10,000 more." According to the first PWA, Edairo >has a population of 27,000 while the national population is 60,000. I'd say >that this is supposed to mean that, before WotI, 30,000 people lived in >Edairo, 10,000 lived in Ranak and the plains around Edairo, and 20,000 were >split up among the Eastern Plains, the upper river valley Hadn't recalled the Almanacs populations, but that does make quite a bit more sense than the population figures in DotE (most, if not all, of which seem drastically low. Heck, even some Almanac figures seem a bit low.) >(what's the name of that river? The River Thothia? Is there any canon >source for its name?) It's the Aurora River, according to M5: Talons of Night. >I suppose you could take it to mean that the 10,000 near Edairo could count >the entire valley, while the other 20,000 would be scattered in the East and >the Escarpment, but even so, most of the people of Thothia are "near" Edairo >(whatever that means, but certainly not the Eastern Plains). Good point. It still seems a split almost like the Northern and Southern kingdom split of the Hollow World Nithia, though I'd say there are few heavily populated settlements in the eastern plains (aside from the villages on the DotE map)- mostly small rural settlements of only a few hundred people each. Very widespread. >I do like the idea of magical communication via pyramids, though :-) I'll have to work on this at some point, if someone doesn't beat me to it first. ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:57:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Class breakdown (was Modernity rant) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agathokles replied to a reply from Jacob Skytte to an original message = from Agathokles (sheesh): >>> Non-combatant Dwarves: this have no reason to be classed. They = should be >>> 0-level dwarves, IMO. >> >> Well, in OD&D there is no such thing as a 0-level Dwarf... (AFAIK) >=20 > Sure, but this does not mean that those dwarves should be better > fighters than the average human soldier (NM!) You're absolutely right, I was just pointing out that you have to take = OD&D into consideration too (no 0-level Dwarves). And BTW I think that = it's ok that dwarves have 1-8 hp (in OD&D) where a Normal Human has 1-7 = hp, since dwarves are supposedly inherently tough (presumably those with = low Con's as well). >>> F1-2: this are guards and army recruits. IMO, they should be 0-level >>> characters, skilled in weapon use (notice that there aren't "NM, = armed >>> and skilled": why?). >> >> And in OD&D there is no such thing as a skilled (as in "skilled in = weapons use") 0-level character (since you can't have weapon masteries = when you're a NM).<< >=20 > I suppose you mean "skilled" as per Weapon Mastery, which is not the > case. In Weapon Mastery terms, they'd have Basic mastery. Also, the > Normal Men description in the red boxed set explicitly states that > normal men can be soldiers, explorers etc., so they would have to be > trained in weapon use. All right, I was a bit hasty there. I was just looking at the Weapon = Mastery, and saw no Weapon Choices for NM. I suppose a NM could have a = single Weapon Mastery choice; perhaps two if a soldier, though I would = probably IMC make them 1st level Fighters. But you're right; NM can be = soldiers according to their Monster entry. >>> Total classed population: 27% possible army members (all fighters or >>> thieves, not counting adventurers and dwarves), when the suggested >>> maximum levy is 20% (per Expert rules, IIRC). And a 20% levy isn't >>> normally used, so at least the last 10% should be a low-quality = militia, >>> made of 0-level recruits. >> >> Yes, there's 27% POTENTIAL, but not actual army members. It clearly = states that these include "guards, street-tough town dwellers and = frontier settlers". And in Ostland (and to a degree Soderfjord), you = have to count the jarls' men, who are not part of the actual military, = but raiders. Sure, they will fight for their country, but not in an = organized army; they haven't been trained for that (IMO).<< >=20 > Yes, but those people "who are not part of the actual military", still > count against the total number of recruitable men. But those men would never be part of an invading army, they're not = disciplined for that. They would, however, defend their lands, and yes, = they're very good at that. It should be no small feat to invade a = country of vikings... BTW the levy percentage is described in the Rules = Cyclopedia on p. 142, and says that 10% can be mustered. This can be = doubled though their troop class then drops to Untrained. This supports = your claim, but IMO this is based on a more general PC Dominion, not a = nation of vikings (mercenary vikings even, in Ostland). > Actually, I can accept the 13% figure as justified, but not a 30% > figure. OTOH, less belligerent contries would have lesser scores, down > to 2% for, say, Hule, a large agricultural country where the army is > mainly composed of mercenary goblinoids. And I still think that 27% is ok for Ostland. These people have a = culture that reveres fighting. Most of them have participated in raiding = at one time or another. I'll agree that it should be lower fo r Vestland = and Soderfjord. But this discussion is pointless. I like the numbers = just fine, you don't. You can't convince me otherwise, and I can't = convince you. Which is probably as it should be... To each his own = campaign style. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:46:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Wild Mages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 May 2000 12:48:02 Max Monas wrote: >The Stalker wrote: > >>How about an underwater pyramid? (I don't know how it got there - an >>earthquake perhaps. Could fit with your volcano idea perhaps...). Don't ask >>me about Wild Mages, though. I hate them. > >Why, if I might ask? I think they add a certain unpredictable (hence: >"wild") element to the magic. I think it is nice, also to keep the PCs on >their toes, because it will show that not every spellcaster can control the, >in my opinion, rather unconttrolabe "substance of magic". Right. That is precisely one reason why I don't like them. As I see it magic is a rather exact science. Wizards spend years and years in apprenticeship to learn even the most basic fundamantals of magic, and mastery is still a *long* way away. One thing I want to establish about magic IMC is that it's dangerous, *very dangerous* if treated with little care. For this reason, mages will spend much time to make certain that they get every detail of their spell right, since it could otherwise have fatal consequences for them. For that reason, wild mages work contrary to my ideas of how magic should work. These guys are rather casual about how they use magic, and if I allow them IMC, I'll also feel obligated to 'protect' them, as it's little fun to see one's character blow up just because he tried to cast a spell. In 2e AD&D magic just fizzles if a spell fails, but IMC I have a table of unpredictable results that could quickly become nasty for the PCs - and so they are careful with their magic! To an extent, a wild mage would ruin that concept - so I don't allow them. >In my campaign they have come across a wild mage (they don't know this yet), >who has given them some assignments, which they are doing right now. One >situation occurred, when they were walking down "The Nest" and someone >decided to throw a hand of coins to the beggars. Other beggars saw this and >decide to try and rob them. The mage tried to cast a spell and it went >wrong; the robbers were killed by a Living Wall (I just wanted to make it >really over the top, and it worked). The PCs realised he was powerful but >couldn't work out why he did this (he could have casted another, less >harmful, spell, they said). The mage in his turn kept his mouth shut, >because he has experienced some problems before with his wild magic. I >think, it can add a nice touch to the game (even the fact that something can >damage the bystanders, including the PCs). > Sure, but it's much less fun when the Fireball blows up in the PCs face as they prepare to fight a beholder, or band of minotaurs, or whatever (I've seen this happen!) Yet if you allow wild mages, including their advantages, you have to accept it when their disadvantages put the wild mage or the entire party in trouble. I don't want to put the group in that position, and so I've decided against wild mages. I hope this answers your question. - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:57:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: 'River Thothia' (was: Post-WotI Possibilities) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 May 2000 13:05:17 Patrick Sullivan wrote: > >According to DotE, Edairo has a population of 30,000 and the "surrounding >land has a population of 10,000 more." According to the first PWA, Edairo >has a population of 27,000 while the national population is 60,000. I'd say >that this is supposed to mean that, before WotI, 30,000 people lived in >Edairo, 10,000 lived in Ranak and the plains around Edairo, and 20,000 were >split up among the Eastern Plains, the upper river valley (what's the name >of that river? The River Thothia? Is there any canon source for its name?) >and the Escarpment (snip rest) According to M5 (Talons of Night) the DM map #3 (p.23) and the Player's Aid #4 (p.27) the name of the part of the river closest to Edairo is given as 'Aurora River'. I'm not sure if the entire main part of the river is also called that, but I would assume so, as names for rivers that branches off from the main river are also given as 'Dragon River', 'River of Dreams', and 'Spider Riveer'. None of the other branches are named, though, but I guess the whole river would be referred to as 'Aurora River'. Just FYI. - The Stalker of Alphatia (who was there, of course - it's a part of our great empire :) ) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:25:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Wild Mages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is one use that I can see for "Wild Mages" in the Mystara setting: On the Night of the Red Moon, all Mystaran mages effectively become Wild Mages as their magic goes totally out of control. Those who survive one such night might have their mundaner friends lock them in the basement and chain them to the wall on that night in subsequent years. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 08:15:28 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Pasi Anias Subject: Skills In-Reply-To: <005b01bfb865$70cc2d20$6232140a@friendlynet> from jdaly at "May 7, 2000 04:47:19 pm" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit bluewiz@fidnet.com (Amethyst Dragon) wrote to me: > I am wondering if you can send me the description of the skills and > how you use them? I have just found the list so far. If you can I would > greatly appreciate it. I took the liberty to follow up an answer to the list too, just in order to give the www-owners who have the list presented an option to add this too... For those who were around when I presented the thing a couple of Years ago, sorry for bringing it up again. Pasi //feel free to ask more -- X Pasi Anias X p. +358 3 2533536 X \\|// X X Sammonkatu 8-10 G 62 X p. +358 50 5936224 X (o o) X X 33540 Tampere, FI, EU X pasi.anias@tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X --- SKILLS (By Pasi Anias) The use of skills in a D&D game is ment to bring some extra depth into the character. Instead of just being a 2nd level fighter able to fight and spend money, the character can have various skills based on his background and hobbies. A young recruit to city guard could tell that he was raised in a farm (farming) by the Windrush river (swimming, boating). Being the youngest in a family of 5 children he had no hope of any kind of inheritance, so in his spare time he learnt to enjoy fishing (fishing) with his uncle, planning to become a fisher when his family could not support him. However, the first winter of living by himself (survival) outrooted the hopes of free living and great catches from him, driving him instead to try the career of professional soldier. SYSTEM The system used IMC for many years with good results is described below. The beginning character receives 4 skills, plus a skill/s for all attribute bonuses. The attribute bonus skills must be used on a skill based on that skill, except for INT which can be used on any skills. Negative bonuses do not count on gaining skills. As there aren't really so many skills on STR and CON one can use these bonuses in the weapon skills too (Boxing,Wrestling, 2 weapons, Blind fighting, Shield). The weaponskills can also be bought with the weaponmastery levels (IMC something like in the hero-rules, but You get more of them, and the damage table is ommitted in favor of a Critical hit-system) too. for example: A starting elf character with STR +1, INT +1, WIS-1, and DEX+2 would get 5 (4 plus 1 from Int) skills plus a STR skill, and two DEX skills. The characters gain 1 skill (or skill rank) every 4 levels (5, 9, 13�) and every 400 000 experience point after the highest level (the Elves gaining their first after 10th level at 1 000 000 exp.) The skills have to be learned of course, often with a teacher, they don't just pop into the characters. I'd also like to note that IMC everyone can read and swim (at 0) unless the character takes the disadvantage illiterate or unable to swim (yes, mine is a 'slightly' altered version of D&D) THE RANKS The skills are ranked from 0 to 5. The rank gives a plus on the skill otherwise based on a given attribute. (Say a Hobbit with 10 int would have rank 1 (basic) in cooking, throwing d20 against 11 (10+1) when trying to cook a special meal for the wery special Hobbitess�). Any given situation could furthermore give a negative or positive bonus on the dice (-3 for the cooking, as the Hobbit only has some wild onions and a nasty looking snake to cook from). The major exception is the weaponskills where everyone has skill rank 0 to begin with. Its important to notice, that the final attribute on the skill doesn't define the actual skill as much as the rank does. Here are some examples what each rank means: 0 = Apprentice level. Limited knowledge of the skill, not quite enough for a career. With 0 skill one would have to roll the dice whenever using the skill. 1 = Basic skill level. Enough to make a living with the skill (when applicable). One does not need to roll on the basic tasks of the skill. For example a hamlet smith, or a journeyman, able to produce low-quality iron from ore and hammer nails without rolling, mediocre iron, tools and other basic quality goods with a roll. 2 = Skilled skill level. Enough to earn full membership at the guild. Able to produce all basic goods without rolling. High quality goods with a roll. 3 = Expert. A highly approved professional. Head of the guild. Usually only produces fine quality goods often with personal improvements or artistic expressions. The best smith in High Forge. 4 = Master. A true master. Able to improve basic consepts and models of the profession. Every product is a piece of art. Expert on detail and quality. One of the best smiths of Rockhome. 5 = Grand Master. One of the most legendary professionals. Could be, that there doesn't exist a Grand Master in a particular skill at a particular time. One of the legendary Dwarven or Elven smiths. THE SKILLS The skills are listed for example at http://www.dnd.starflung.com/skills.html I have omitted the skill descriptions on most of them, as my originals are in finish, but Most of them are from gazzetteers anyways. Mischa E Gelman made a good job adding skills from hollow world too, as well as improving the indexing. Most of the skills are rather obvious but I have added some description on the ones I think might need clarification. SKILLS STRENGTH Porter (carries 1,5/2/3/4/5/6 times the encumbarance on the given speed. Has to load it wery well though�) INTELLIGENCE Alternate Magics 7 (Other kind of magics� at higher ranks able to use it too) Hypnotism (only a willing subject, not a magical thing) Magical Engineering 7 (building of magical items) Outdoorsmanship 7 (basic camping etc skill. Very important for travelers) Signaling 10 (using signals of light, voice or stones and sticks to communicate) Sound Analysist (what is this voice I hear behind the door?) Spellcraft (creating new spells) Honor 7 (Basic skill of the priest. 0 level expected from any devote worshipper. Must be defined, for ex. Honor Tarastia. Preaching, church etiquette etc) Kof Culture (All knowledge of (Kof) skills define knowledge on given subject. These are just excamples. Basic skills for sages and scolars) Mysticism 10 (basic knowledge of religions, charms etc. Very neccessary for all looters of holy places. = level wery common on religious or superticious peoples.) Weather 7 (prediction of it) DEXTERITY Close Magic (this is tricks and finger dexterity, not magic. Can be used to entertain or to other less humorous causes�) CONSTITUTION Drinking (ability to withstand the effects of alcoholl..) CHARISMA Allure p3 (persuation against the opposite sex.) Gain Trust 7 (To present ones real meaning and the trustworthiness, not used when lieing) Servility 10 (please master�Please dont hurt� poor Smeagol�) Ventriloquism (not the spell a skill often used to humor peoples�) EXTRA WEAPON SKILLS Two-weapons (0=-6/-4/No criticals (-6 on secondary weapon, -4 on first weapon, no critical hits (yes it is a 'slightly altered' form of DD)), 1=-6/-3/only1Crit, 2=-4/-2/only1crit, 3=-3/-1/only2crit, 4=-2/-/only3crit, 5=-/-/all crits) Blind fighting (0=-4, 1=-3, 2=-2, 3=-1, 4=-0, 5=+1 (supprice effect)) Shield (extra bonus to skill wielder accordind to the rank number) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.