========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:17:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Kingdom of Ghyr (Andrew Theissen?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000513195853.007c8cc0@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Is there a map of Ghyr out there somewhere? If not, which cities, towns and villages should be included in such a map? Is there any more information available on Ghyr than the article by Andrew Theissen on Stans website? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect a new one?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:46:55 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: EXP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed XP for characters is calculated the same way as for monsters, using the table on p. 128 of the Cyclopedia. Use the character's level as his HD. Give one asterisk for every two spell levels the character can cast (round up). You might also give additional asterisks for especially powerful offensive magical items. >From: erewan laubgaenger >Reply-To: Mystara >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >Subject: [MYSTARA] EXP >Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:19:08 +0200 > >hello together >is there are an EXP table for PCs? >i have seen in many adventures there stand at the end of the charakter >diskription >a number of EXP for that on. >is there a table with that i can see how much an charakter NPC and PC is >worth. >it will listen very hard, but how much exp is an PC worth? >IBON > >******************************************************************** >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:52:29 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Slaving: Where to Get Them. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I doubt clerics of Valerias would do this, as she seems to be more interested in love and romance than in the "end products", though her clerics might aid in childbirth in general. However, twisted clerics of Vanya could be used if whe were to establish her Matera persona in the KW. >How about breeder farms run by slightly twisted clerics of Valerias? >With >healing magic to prevent most losses incurrent in childbirth and >infancy, >this may be just enough to swing the balance to a slight >increase per year >in slave population. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:32:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves In-Reply-To: <391F22E8.7759904F@planetfortress.com>; from spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:04:24PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:04:24PM -0400, SteelAngel wrote: > > Alphatia was DESTROYED. That is, wiped off the face of the > planet. Without Alphatia proper, the Alphatian civilization > has completely fallen apart, and will die out as we know it > soon. Exactly, while the NACE is doing well it's not Alphatian in character. [Of course the same could be said of HW Alphatia, what *were* the immortals smoking when they came up with the policemen of the HW idea :) ] gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:22:54 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SteelAngel ha scritto: > No. The Hollow world is to save civilizations that are about > to be wiped out, not to be used to put perfectly healthy > civilizations that just happen to have lost their lands. > > Alphatia was DESTROYED. That is, wiped off the face of the > planet. Without Alphatia proper, the Alphatian civilization > has completely fallen apart, and will die out as we know it > soon. > > However, the Alfheim elves simply migrated somewhere else. > That's not a reason to put them in the Hollow World. Well, I think that the Alfheim elves' civilization is lost beyond the point of repair, because now there are A) Wendar: elves + humans, and noone in Wendar likes Alfheim elves B) Aengmor: Alfheim elves + shadow elves None of these seem to be places where the Alfheim elves will thrive, rather there are strong risks of being destroyed or assimilated, should anything go wrong in one of the two nations (shadow elves are >> than elves, and in Wendar the elves are not enjoying themselves). And, even if you don't agree (I'm not forcing you, just pointing out my ideas...), I think that you could agree that there would be at least some of the elves that lived in Denagoth and were completely annihilated by the Shadowlord. > > > If that were true, then there would be ancient Hin > civilizations, Why not? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:33:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Slaving: Where to Get Them. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul George Dooley ha scritto: > > Where does either Empire get slaves? Again, here's a topic that's been > > discussed some, but this is one where no solid conclusions have been made, > > as far as I can recall. Both Empires probably try to have their slave > > populations "self-sustain" as much as possible (have kids), but > > historically that's usually been dificult IRL (slave populations rarely > > reproduce at replacement levels, much less grow). > > How about breeder farms run by slightly twisted clerics of Valerias? With > healing magic to prevent most losses incurrent in childbirth and infancy, > this may be just enough to swing the balance to a slight increase per year > in slave population. BRUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH You will be interested in my articles for the Tome #4 Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:51:12 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Well, I think that the Alfheim elves' civilization is lost beyond the point >of repair, >because now there are >A) Wendar: elves + humans, and noone in Wendar likes Alfheim elves >B) Aengmor: Alfheim elves + shadow elves >None of these seem to be places where the Alfheim elves will thrive, rather >there are strong risks of being destroyed or assimilated, should anything >go wrong in one of the two nations True, but the elven culture is centered more around the clan than their country, so as long as the clans exist, their culture isn't threatened. If all the clans were in danger of being wiped out, then the Immortals might remove some to the HW. > >And, even if you don't agree (I'm not forcing you, just pointing out my >ideas...), >I think that you could agree that there would be at least some of the elves >that lived in Denagoth and were completely annihilated by the Shadowlord. > I'm not familiar with the Denagoth elves, but again; unless their cuture was uniquely different from the other elven clans, they probably wouldn't have been preserved in the HW. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:39:39 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Big Party Problems In-Reply-To: <20000514130512.14483.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 14 May 2000, Max Monas wrote: > Does anyone have clue what to do with a party that doesn't seem to get > along? It is not the players can get along, but the characters seem to have > lots of problems to get along. Some are very individual and just go off and > do something, while the rest of theb party was doing something else. > This is what happened: First of all: Character conflicts can be really cool. If the players have created characters with personalities that don't match, try to make them roleplay it. Tell them that if it would be realistic for the characters to walk their separate ways, then that is what they should do. Or even better, turn on eachother (not neccesarily in open conflict, they could turn eachother in..) If your players don't like this sort of gaming, they will focus more on making new characters with personalities that match. Note: It doesn't have to end this way. Seems to me that some of the characters have shown complete disregard for the other's feelings. If they knew there could be consequences of such actions, they might have acted differently. You also asked about how to encourage your players to solve problems without turning to combat. The best way to deal with this is to show your players that combat isn't the easiest way around things. Combat usually makes noise which should attract attention. If they do it quickly and silently they should get away with it, although if they are still discovered, reactions should be worse. You can do this through roleplaying or simply tell them that that is the way things work in this town. Here, you'll probably encounter one of the great weaknesses with the D&D-systems. What match are a bunch of guards against your PCs? (At least if they are of some level. Guards arent stupid. If it looks like they'll get killed, they will flee and get help. Probably from a knight or wizard in the area. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect a new one?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:42:38 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should not force it is players into any direction because they will not like this because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? I am afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or quartered or somethin along the same lines. They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause problems if I solve it this way. I think I will have them expelled from town (maybe even forever) if they refuse to do some work for the government (this means I will send them after the Black Eagle Baron). Should they accept this assignment and I am quite sure they will, five bodies will be found and the bodies will have their names and they have to choose a new identity. Should they refuse they will be sent to prison for 9 years. The Iron Ring might try to get them out, but that will depend on how they behave towards the Iron Ring in the next couple of sessions. If they do accept I think I will take Phillip Jones's idea of the Karameikan Secret Service. I will make sure that they will get the feeling that these people or nothing better than the Iron Ring, but the only difference is that these lads are legal, so they can more or less do what they want. Hopefully they will choose to quite them, so they will be hunted by the City Guard in Specularum (and most likely also in cities and villages throughout Karameikos), the Iron Ring (because they the Iron Ring and the BEB will find out that they are still alive somehow) and the Karameikan secret Service. I think this will give them enough reason to think again before doing something as they did before (I hope). Regards, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:01:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But their lands were conquered and the refugees faced a major > change to their culture, which makes them just as much > candidates for being Nope. The elves' culture hasn't changed enough. PLus, given the chance to get Alfheim back, there is no need. The Elven culture on Mystara is not going to die out. > Of these, I can certainly verify the existence of the gnome > civilization (Oostdok) as well as hin among the Merry Pirates. Those aren't _ancient_ civilizations. The Ancient Hin were driven from thier homes in Davania. But you don't see an ancient Hin civilization in the HW. The Ice Gnomes (detailed in my Snartan supplement due out in September <-- blatant plug!) Were practically wiped out, but I declined to put them in the HW. The Hollow World is a place for civilizations that are on the verge of being eliminated completely. The Elves aren't going to be eliminated. There are enough Elven civilizations, even in the Known World, to prevent Illsundal from even worrying. Ethan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:10:31 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? In-Reply-To: <20000515134238.91364.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 15 May 2000, Max Monas wrote: > In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included > killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? > I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should not > force it is players into any direction because they will not like this > because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them > is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? I am > afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or > quartered or somethin along the same lines. The PCs should have some control over the campaign. What you should show them is that their actions have consequences. If they act in a stupid manner, they should expect trouble. In this way it should become apparent they they can decide whether they want to have their characters killed or not. > They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause problems > if I solve it this way. There are alternatives to killing the characters. This is easier if they are up against evil NPCS, but the law has some pretty humiliating ways of reacting too. Cutting off hands, fingers, or blinding characters should not be above the law. Public humiliation is another possibility. > I think I will have them expelled from town (maybe even forever) if > they refuse to do some work for the government (this means I will send > them after the Black Eagle Baron). Should they accept this assignment > and I am quite sure they will, five bodies will be found and the > bodies will have their names and they have to choose a new identity. > Should they refuse they will be sent to prison for 9 years. The Iron > Ring might try to get them out, but that will depend on how they > behave towards the Iron Ring in the next couple of sessions. If they > do accept I think I will take Phillip Jones's idea of the Karameikan > Secret Service. I will make sure that they will get the feeling that > these people or nothing better than the Iron Ring, but the only > difference is that these lads are legal, so they can more or less do > what they want. Hopefully they will choose to quite them, so they will > be hunted by the City Guard in Specularum (and most likely also in > cities and villages throughout Karameikos), the Iron Ring (because > they the Iron Ring and the BEB will find out that they are still alive > somehow) and the Karameikan secret Service. I think this will give > them enough reason to think again before doing something as they did > before (I hope). Regards, This is a good plot device and a cool starting poinbt for an adventure. However, the players may feel that they got out of their troubles too easily and will most likely repeat their crimes in the future. I think you should make sure that they understand that if they do something similar again, they will suffer terribly. Also, you can make them know, when they return to town that the guards are watching them. Guards of other towns might have been alerted aswell, depending on the circumstances. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect a new one?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:03:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The important thing for the party to remember is that you, as DM, are a player too. You have invested far more time and effort in the game than they have. It is important for you to have fun too. If you are not, and it is due to the actions of the player's characters then explain it to them. In game terms your solution sounds a little weak. You seem to be saying, "I want to punish them, but I don't want them to leave my game." Been there brother, I know the feeling too well. By not taking quick action a campaign I ran severeal years ago was destroyed. You must be firm with your players. They must realize that your game world provides fair punishment for crimes. It is not reasonable to expel someone from a town for the cold-blooded murder of a helpless individual, it is even worse when that individual is a guard. To allow them to get off with expulsion alone is, IMHO, nothing. If that is what you intend, and you do not want them to have to develop new characters, have them expelled; only later do they learn that word is out that they have ratted out the Iron Ring. This way you can roleplay them dodging IR thugs, IR wannabees, freelance thugs who want to collect a reward from the IR, and government officials who want more information about the IR. Every time they enter a town, the town guard should have someone follow them around; merchants should be fearful of them and charge more money for their wares. The least violation of the law should result in stiff fines and expulsion. If the players complain tell them it will last for a game year from the time of their last violent act against an innocent. Hope this helps, George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Monas" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? > Hi everyone, > > In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included > killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? > I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should not > force it is players into any direction because they will not like this > because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them > is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? I am > afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or > quartered or somethin along the same lines. > They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause problems > if I solve it this way. > I think I will have them expelled from town (maybe even forever) if they > refuse to do some work for the government (this means I will send them after > the Black Eagle Baron). Should they accept this assignment and I am quite > sure they will, five bodies will be found and the bodies will have their > names and they have to choose a new identity. Should they refuse they will > be sent to prison for 9 years. The Iron Ring might try to get them out, but > that will depend on how they behave towards the Iron Ring in the next couple > of sessions. If they do accept I think I will take Phillip Jones's idea of > the Karameikan Secret Service. I will make sure that they will get the > feeling that these people or nothing better than the Iron Ring, but the only > difference is that these lads are legal, so they can more or less do what > they want. Hopefully they will choose to quite them, so they will be hunted > by the City Guard in Specularum (and most likely also in cities and villages > throughout Karameikos), the Iron Ring (because they the Iron Ring and the > BEB will find out that they are still alive somehow) and the Karameikan > secret Service. > I think this will give them enough reason to think again before doing > something as they did before (I hope). > Regards, > > Max > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Hollow World 2000 (was HKs in the Hollow World (was Mischa wrote: > >Another question came to my mind in light of the recent debates - what >would Hollow World 2000 look like? Who joins those currently inside? >Thyatis? Alfheim? Vestland? Anyone want to try to detail the potential >map and international reactions 1000 years later? Here are some preliminary thoughts: Given that transferral to the HW can occur due to imminent annihilation of a culture, sociological changes that threaten to alter it considerably (ie: the Merry Pirates, where Korotiku moved some piratical Ostlanders and Thyatians because he knew their cultures were evolving, and those elements might not survive), or a bunch of other factors which I won't try to identify right now, here is a list of possible moves to the HW, and why... Hinterlanders - increasing Thy. colonisation will ultimately alter their culture past the point of no return (IMO within the next 25-75 years, but possibly already since the empire has been in the area since AC 988 - almost 30 years as of AC 1016), they are different from the Neathar tribes already present (more advanced technologically, IMO), and so would merit their own little region. Thyatians - the reforms being initiated in the MA are moving the empire to a more Byzantine (which I read as having more Milenian influences) model, as opposed to Rome (from DotE and the PWAs). While it may seem slight, the differences in organisation and nomenclature (and other factors relating to them) will eventually alter the culture in more ways than the superficial. IMO, the Thyatians of AC 1200 will be very different from those of AC 1000. Northern Reaches - the decline of thralldom (possibly converting the region into a sort of "Kingdom of Sweden" circa AD 1500 - AD 1700 over the next few decades), and other modernisation initiatives by Vestland and to a lesser degree Soderfjord (perhaps Ostland one day - though thralldom seems to be in decline there to some degree), could see the eventual disappearance of a true Viking culture from the KW. Heldann - as time passes, the HKs might change their doctrines (perhaps moving from a sort of Mystaran Teutonic Order to the foundation of a sort of "Holy Roman Empire" based in Freiburg), and the indigenous Heldanners might become more of less assimilated within the next 100 years or so (and the PWAs imply that this is happening). We could see a Heldanner enclave dropped amongst the Antalians, or among any future Northern Reaches enclave in the HW (IMO there are slight differences between the Antalians of the HW, and the Vikings of the Northern Reaches - enough to make them worthy of distinguishing). Ethengar - as clan wars progress, we could see one of more of them be moved to the HW. Atruaghin clans - increased contact with Darokin (and other nations) might see a repeat of what happened IRL. Diseases that were once unknown on the plateau might wipe out whole tribes before the shamans begin to understand their effects and how to fight them, or unscrupulous slavers (here's an idea for the slavery thread) might see these fit, hardy folk as ideal stock to replenish declining slave populations - and frequent raids could sap the strength of the children of Atruaghin (perhaps aided by the Children of the Viper) - the Turtle clan would probably be the easiest pickings first off, but expeditions might be mounted on the plateau later on (perhaps using the elevator that currently facilitates trade - how ironic, really....). The solution, if this were to happen, would be to move them to the HW. That's it for now - feel free to comment! :-) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >But I think there must be a delay of many years before the effects "kick >in", or else outer world PCs would have the nasty problem of being unable to >leave. Let us supposd that a party of Darokinian PCs enters the Hollow >World. If the Spell of Preservation affected them immediately, then they >would be unable to leave, as doing so would destroy what little of >Darokinian culture existed in the Hollow World. Ok, this is a good point. I'm not sure that I would deal with the SoP in this way, but it is definately something that I have to think about. (See below for one possible solution) >I would suggest that a culture whose members find their own way to the >Hollow World would not be affected by the Spell of Preservation until it no >longer has any members in the Hollow World who were not born there. >On this basis, the Beastmen and Schattenalfen would be under the spell >of preservation, but the Heldannic Knights and the Norwold Malamute >Lupins would not be. I don't agree with this. Let's say that the immortals scoop up a culture and place them in the HW (the Nithians for example). Usually (barring the example of Alphatia) just a small village is placed into the HW. Whether that village thrives, and becomes the empire it was on the outside, or it is just able to scrape by, doesn't matter to the immortals. All they care about is that the culture is preserved. Now let's say they place that small village in the HW, and then a large dino walks by and eats everyone. Since all of those people would have been born on the OW, then with your reasoning none of them would have survived, and the implantation of that culture into the HW fails. I see no proof anywhere that this is the case. It might be easier to argue that once a culture has individuals native to the HW, the SoP kicks in (as opposed to having all individuals be native to the HW), but I still don't think that this is the case. [Even if the above were true, my point would still be valid for the HK. Remember though that the HKs already had a firm hold on Oostdok by the time that the PA got there (which was sometime in 1960s IIRC). The Alphers didn't drive the HKs away until after the AFC arrived in 1010. That is over 30 years of HK rule over Oostdok. Enough years for at least some of the HKs to father/mother offspring born native to the HW.] On another tangent: I got the impression that the SoP was a mindless effect (once again siting Colima). It doesn't make distinctions based upon the success of a culture, so why should it mak distinctions based on the length of time a culture spends in the HW. IMO, the SoP is powerful enough without ascribing some sort of thought process or sencience to it. It is simply a magical effect, driven by the power of the HW sun. It blankets the HW with its effects. No distinctions. Your first point (about the Darokinians) might raise some problems here. I think that instead of timespan, we should use numbers to determine who the SoP effects. The SoP effects cultures, not individuals...this is made clear in the HW boxed set, I think to clarify just how the SoP would effect adventurers (ie the PCs). So the question then becomes, does said group of adventurers constitute a viable, sustainable Darokinian culture? If so, the fall under the SoP. If not, they are fine. What would being viable entail? There would have to be members of both sexes. There would have to be enough of each to be able to propigate the culture. The second statement is left vague, because I think this should be up to individual DMs to decide. >>Which ties in to a point I thought of last night and was going to bring up. The SoP prevents cultures from being annihilated- through absorption, destruction, etc. It's function is to keep the cultures in (essentially) the same form they were in when they arrived. It doesn't function to *keep* a culture there, if said culture is inclined to leave, IMO. In the HK example, the Heldanners were largely defeated and driven out of the positions they previously occupied in the Hollow World- they were not completely destroyed, as elements of the HKs definitely survived in the Hollow World- presumably enough elements that they could have rebuilt elsewhere, under the protection of the SoP. However, if the HKs decided to physically leave the Hollow World (as they evidently have), the SoP wouldn't act to prevent that. It wouldn't function at all, save perhaps to ensure thatthey survived for as long as they remained within the Hollow World.<< >>See, I don't think this would happen myself. The SoP wouldn't, IMO, prevent any culture from leaving, just from ending. If someone voluntarily chooses to leave its demesnes, then the SoP couldn't (or at least shouldn't) function to keep them there. << Hmmm...I'm not sure that I would agree with this. The SoP does more than prevent the physical destruction of a culture...it also prevents the culture from changing/evolving (which in a way is a kind of destruction of the culture, but not a physical destruction). It does this by enforcing cultural bias, which means (in my interpretation) that it can effect the mindset of a people. Therefore, I'm not sure that an entire culture could "choose" to leave the HW. Some individuals might be able to do this...perhaps even a majority, But I'd be willing to bet that the SoP would cause just enough individuals to "choose" to stay inside of the HW, in order to continue the culture. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:48:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Kingdom of Ghyr (Andrew Theissen?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H=E5vard wrote: >Is there a map of Ghyr out there somewhere? There is, but its not completely to my satisfaction at the moment. I'll t= ry and finish it up and post it on my site this weekend, with the caveat tha= t it might change a bit from the final version. Actually, it won't change too much, the main thing is its just missing a = few place names... :( >If not, which cities, towns and villages should be included in such a >m= ap? So far, the city of Ghyr, the town of Luho, and several unnamed villages = and towns. = >Is there any more information available on Ghyr than the article by >And= rew Theissen on Stans website? Yeahhh... err, that is, probably quite a bit, just not in a format that I= 'm comfortable with yet? Nerts... Guess I'll have to start sending out snippets of stuff here and = there now. Actually, it's no biggie, I should probably be doing that anyway. As for "canonical" sources of info, I'll tell you what my work is based o= n- modules XL-1: Quest for the Heartstone (which is the first and only place= to mention Ghyr) and O1: The Gem and the Staff (which I've incorporated into= the kingdom as well). I also incorporated elements from the characters from A= C1: Shady Dragon Inn (which has fairly detailed back stories for the LJN toy = line of characters- Strongheart, Warduke, etc, who are connected to the Kingdo= m of Ghyr via the Heartstone). If you have any questions or anything, feel free to send them to me, and = I'll see if I can answer them. You may also help shape the eventual "gazetteer= " of Ghyr, which is still in the process of creation. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:53:56 -0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment Subject: Re: EXP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If that was I OD&D quwestion, please forgive me. Have I said too many BS? vini. Eyal Fleminger wrote: > > XP for characters is calculated the same way as for monsters, using the > table on p. 128 of the Cyclopedia. Use the character's level as his HD. Give > one asterisk for every two spell levels the character can cast (round up). > You might also give additional asterisks for especially powerful offensive > magical items. > > >From: erewan laubgaenger > >Reply-To: Mystara > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >Subject: [MYSTARA] EXP > >Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:19:08 +0200 > > > >hello together > >is there are an EXP table for PCs? > >i have seen in many adventures there stand at the end of the charakter > >diskription > >a number of EXP for that on. > >is there a table with that i can see how much an charakter NPC and PC is > >worth. > >it will listen very hard, but how much exp is an PC worth? > >IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:52:16 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> See, I don't think this would happen myself. The SoP wouldn't, IMO, prevent any culture from leaving, just from ending. If someone voluntarily chooses to leave its demesnes, then the SoP couldn't (or at least shouldn't) function to keep them there. << >>I'd agree with that. The SoP, IMO, isn't so "Active/Forceful" as to be able to prevent folks from leaving - it always seems to work through "indirect" means (strange co-incidences) - so it really couldn't raise a barrier that couldn't be overcome if people vollentarily decide to exit - after all, they aren't *really* violating the SoP while leaving, because they're culture isn't directly threatened with destruction, presumably, by going from a Point A (within the HW) to a Point B. Of course, if that Point B is outside the HW, then the SoP won't protect them if a giant weasel eats everyone, but the SoP isn't in the business of predicting such eventualities, and once you're outside it's "range", you're weasel chow. << I'm not so sure. I agree as long as points A and B are both in the HW (and therefore in the range of effect of the SoP). If point B was outside the effect of the SoP, then for all intents and purposes (as far as the SoP was concerned) a culture moving to point B might be considered destroyed (or lost or whatever). If this is the case, then the SoP would intervene to prevent this. >>HOWEVER - if some folks *DO* want to have the SoP at least put obsticles in the way of entire societies vanishing from the HW via migration, it wouldn't be that hard to think of some - strange storms at the polar openings that "just happen" to appear and be so fierce that the only alternative seems to be to turn back, tunnels towards the surface collapsing or otherwise becoming impassable, etc. But it would probably be very hard for the SoP to completely prevent folks from leaving. << I agree. Hard to prevent folks from leaving...but entire cultures... see below. >>Which brings rise to a theoretical question: What if every inhabitant of a "HW Jonestown Culture" decided to drink the cool-aid? By that I mean, what if, for instance, every Gentle Elf woke up one morning and decided they couldn't bear it all? The SoP would presumably "intervene" to prevent mass suicide that would wipe out a culture, right? But how? Every knife becomes butter and every poison becomes an Elixer of Health? What if they then go on a hunger strike, and refuse to eat?<< Good point. I'd make the argument that the SoP would prevent this from happening in the first place. Sure many may decide to drink (enough to devastate the culture), but I think that enough would decide not to drink...just enough to preserve the culture. This is the SoP in action. Not only can it manifect in physical form to prevent cultural loss, but so too can it effect the minds individuals. Take cultural bias for example. The SoP prevents (for the most part) individuals of a certian culture from picking up the habits of neighboring cultures. Of course some individuals might just do that, but they are then imposed with a penalty by the SoP. It's a numbers game pure and simple. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:54:00 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Magical Interrogation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/00 3:54:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << > << Its a bit like being asked "what is your name" - if you fail your save you > involuntarily think about your name, giving the interrogator a clue. If you > pass, you manage to think about something else instead. There is no save > for ESP, its not like "the spell fails" or anything like that, so the > interrogator doesn't necessarily know what he is picking up, because he > cannot really ascertain whether he has successfully resisted or not. >> > > That is the AD&D description. In the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, it is possible > to resist an ESP spell -- but in that case the spell fails utterly and the > caster This may be true, but as an AD&D player its relevant to me :) Also it seems that Alex uses AD&D as well, though I could be wrong about that.>> though i don't game anymore...i guess you could call me a user of the AD&D rules. however since both rules systems are seen in this forum i try to moderate between the two systems....differentiating when possible. << From a different angle, I'm strongly against any divination spell from being foolproof, so I would hazard to venture that the AD&D spell is considerably more balanced from a campaign point of view. Although if were running under the D&D rules, I would probably say that Alphatian thieves have learnt to resist it somehow - which makes sense from their survival point of view (would be an interesting point for a campaign as well - maybe there really IS a secret Thieves Guild that no one knows about? :)>> i'll agree with you to a point regarding the desired accuracy of divination spells. to me that takes away from the game if it is too easily possible to scry everything and everyone with virtual impunity. however i would not say that ESP is in the same class as the scrying magics i tried to avoid. ESP is limited in range. as for the thieves guild....i was giving it a bit more thought. i wouldn't say that they have learned to resist it....instead i think that they would have learned to work around it (and magic in general for that matter). there's a similar addage in the Alph players guide in DotE where one of the intro in-character dialogs mentions side stepping the magics as the mages tend to focus their defenses on other mages. i'd go up in look but i worked last night and if i go up to the old bedroom i might not come back down. i'd like to add that though i do favor alph and use to adventure there alot, most of my PCs were actually fighters. the exceptions were elves and a couple of clerics. i cannot stand playing mages, never have never will. it was actually quite entertaining to adventure that way. it required a great deal of planning. interestingly enough, it also led to some exploiting of mage rivalries where the targeted mage's rivals were often focal in advising the adventurers in possible defenses and wards that the target mage may have in place. it actually led to a house rule skill where spells could be recognized based on their attributes. its a skill actually...highly dependant upon Int and Wis ability scores. as is the skill only worked about half the time. i guess a similar skill could be adopted by the thieves guilds. add this and the use of cells to limit exposure to the mages and i guess that thieves guilds could survive. admitedly i still like the premise of the alph authorities refusing to recognize an organized theiving organization exists in alpherland. > picks up no thoughts. The obvious reaction in a magocracy would be to > punish that person for contempt of court and try again at another time. One > interesting abuse of this system, of course, could occur if the mage in > question did not like the person being interrogated or the answers he was > getting -- in that case he might falsely accuse somebody of resisting even > as all thoughts are laid open to him. One limit on that abuse, of course, is > that fact that an ESP mage who meets with resistance too often would come > to be considered incompetent. It would be interesting to see who this "ESP wizard" actually is. Presumably the constabulary would hire wizards as interrogators, but somehow that doesnt seem very Alphatian to me. (Bit of a scum job for a noble, casting ESP on criminals). I wouldn't be surprised if it was the actual judge or magistrate who cast the ESP.>> as mentioned in another message, the reference materal is quite clear in its presumption of innocence and overriding intent that through magic the truth comes out. anyway....the particulars are barely touched upon. however i would assume that the casters are hired or even kept on retainer. since casting spells for pay is a staple source of income for alpher mages it is not too surprising. likewise, being a second level spell the candidate pool for casting mages to use is pretty open. << One obvious abuse which I hinted at earlier is if the ESP wizard simply lies about his findings. He is ultimately just a witness because of that very reason. Whether they attempt multiple ESPs from different casters, and cross examine the casting wizards just as you would expect for any other witness, I imagine would depend on the situation. If a commoner is being interrogated, and the wizard lies about his findings, and the commoner protested, would anyone in authority take the commoners side? Or would the commoner get 10 lashes for insolence as well as a contempt of court charge? As the place is Chaotic in alignment, I'm sure it could be handled in any number of ways depending on the situation, from scrupulously fair to massively injust. Magical evidence put simply is always circumstantial, simply because it has to be cast by someone who may or may not be reliable. >> while all of those are possible....DotE is quite specific in its stance that innocence until proven guilty is the norm....with magic being used to uncover what happened. as such i would guess that the alphs have established some procedure or protocol to insure that the magically gathered evidence is irrefutable. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:54:08 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/00 1:07:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: << Alex Benson wrote: > > Yet you had no problems with how NACE gained some of its own new lands, > where people basically tripped all over themselves to join it with open > arms, all within the space of a year or two. >> > > what lands would those be? what peoples are being discussed? i asked as i did Thothia, Qeodhar, Dunadale, Helskir, Aegos, Esterhold, Norwold. As far as I can see, the only real reason for them to join NACE is them being Alphatians. But by that line of reasoning, Karameikos should rejoin Thyatis, being ruled by Thyatians (and Thyatians are even much more lawful and community-oriented than Alphatians). >> Thothia- did thothia ever leave? the thothians and alphers have a longstanding relationship, each seeing the other as the only civilized people on mystara. going by some sources the thothians/nithians were even a factor in getting the alpher to mystara from old alphatia. in a post wrath sense, Thothia joined nace as much as nace joined thothia. anyway...that thothian alliance with the scattered alph territories was already forging itself into an alliance in the PWAs. Qeodhar- i didn't have anything to do with Q's developement in the MAs. to be quite honest i don't recall offhand any Q relevant events from last year....well maybe one or two....but i couldn't name any key players or details without having to look at the almanac. Dunadale & Helskir- Heldun, as it is now referred to, is actually a Thy initiated union of Dunadale and Helskir. the move was initiated by Thy interests, though I cannot say who exactly penned the events. I wasn't the biggest fan of the move, but obliged as it was what the team wanted to do. if i had a bit more say in it, i would have pushed for Dierdren with its alph derived populace be seperated from Heldun and be a seperate nace kingdom. i say that as Heldun may be a Nace member, it is by no means a nace kingdom. it is ruled by thy rulers and pays tribute to thyatis. So I would not read into its Nace membership too much. Aegos- A preWrath holding well in Nace waters, I saw no reason for the acquisition of it by Nace. However there was opposition and it was turned over as part of the Heldun project and as part of the Thy reacquisition of ochalea and the pearl islands. as is the Aegos is not a gem. at best it is a small agricultural island. The Pit is currently not a factor. in short its acquisition was part of a nace consolidation of the alatian islands. as mentioned the trade off was aspects of the Heldun agreement and the Och. and pearl islands. Esterhold- it's easterhold.....not exactly a gem for nace. add to this the domestic troubles there and any value is further dimmed. i really cannot comment too much more on easterhold as that plotline is still under way for 1017. Norwold- as with Thothia...did NW ever leave? anyway...i am not in the NW team so you need to address those concerns to someone else. Kara- i don't think that Kara would apply under the same doctrines as the Thy aspect is still a minority comprising only 15% of the human population. anyway...Kara's breakaway predated Wrath as it became a duchy and cemented itself during Wrath. likewise i am not in the Kara team either. I am aware that the Kara example was used as an example but I feel that it isn't applicable. Nace should not be confused with the old empire. as is Nace is a confederacy...hence the name. membership is non threatening for member kingdoms as there aren't many demands on the individual kingdoms. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:54:13 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves (was: Alphatia and ... bla, bla, bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/00 2:40:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << Alex Benson wrote: > > mystarawise alph, thy, and milenia are the main slave states. of these three > alph and milenia are most consistent with each other and with RW slave > societies. thy slave practices are out of the ordinary as they imply some > hope of freedom in the long run. personally i see this aspect being made more > into a quasi-form of indentured servitude than outright slave status. > Why? In RW, Roman laws allowed slaves to attain freedom and rise in the social ladder. In the imperial age, many powerful ministers were former slaves. Thyatian law is surely less restrictive than RW Roman, but this accounts for the fact that, in general, the Known World is more advanced than the Roman Empire. >> yes...but RW rome also impaled or crucified unruly slaves. they also allowed slaves to own slaves as well. they also used slaves for backbreaking labor which usually saw them perishing soonafter. but as you said...Thy slave laws are less restrictive. anyway...the perception is that Thy slaves eventually gain their freedom quite easily. imo this has been overemphasized with those gaining their freedoms being more exceptions to the rule and for character developement...as per Thincol. look at the case of Thincol, his slave status was as much a part of his legendary stature as anything. would thincol of been as impressive and focal if he had been a freeborne thyatian than his foriegner slave-turned gladiator-turned imperial savior -turned emperor. it's part of his epic rise from nothing to the most powerful entity on Brun. compare thincol to emperor andronius of milenia and see what i mean. or for that matter compare thincol to his son eusebius and see which are more epic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:54:20 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Sources of Thyatian slaves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/00 2:56:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kaviyd@AOL.COM writes: << In a message dated 2000-05-14 8:18:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alex295@AOL.COM writes: << what has struck me as being odd about the Thys is where they get all these slaves. since the trend is for the Thys to offer citizenship to conquered people for assimilation into the empire, the flow of new slaves is a bit puzzling especially with so many slaves supposedly gaining their freedom eventually. since thy slaves are numerous and needed for the empire's economy where do these slaves come from. DotE has them numbering up to 30% in some areas and being the basis for the thy economy. >> There seem to be three possible sources of slaves: 1) Conquered people who refuse to be assimilated (presumably few in number).>> i would think that it would be heavily dependant upon thy foriegn policy. say...for example Thy forces move into a region. the locals marshall their forces to meet this advance. the thy commanders issue a proclaimation demanding surrender now or unconditional surrender later. if the indigenous opposition surrenders they hammer out the citizenship awards. if they resist and are beaten they become spoils of war....including any associated settlements. this could be quite a boon of slaves as well as a motivator for subsequent opposition to forego confliuct and sign a treaty. << 2) Children of slaves (both parents) (a fairly large group given the rarity of cross-class marriages)>> i am glad you brought this one up. while a Thy slave might buy his own freedom, this does not immediately include the freedom of any spouse or children who would remain in the servitude of the master. essentially he will have to purchase all of their freedoms. <<3) People convicted of "greater crimes" motivated by "chronic self-interest/ unsociability" (a group that is presumably large enough to make up for those slaves who are able to earn their freedom) >> that may work in some slave roles. however i don't think that a potenital slave owner would want a convicted criminal .... especially one sentenced to slavery....working amid the household. i would think that mos crimainal slaves would be sent to the hard labor tasks...which should have a high mortality rate to begin with. i think the spoils of war type slaves are the most rewarding source of slaves. however i would think that the adults would be ferried off to labor based tasks as they would be less amiable to slave status. the more combatant adults being sent to the gladiatorial games. this leaves the younger captives being made slaves and raised to fill more placid roles. another aspect is slave behavior through disciplinary action. however the thys have sort of short changed themselves in this regard as their authority has been undermined by the slave laws. personally i think that there is some unspoken slave taking from the outer territories....perhaps even in the Thy mainland...where free thys are easily made into slaves. this was the adventure hook in the to Thy relevant DAA series adventures. in particular the poor would be prone to this with slavers roaming the slums for candidates....not too different from RW sailors being shanghied or impressed into service. there is also the chance that the poor sell offspring into slavery. i am not the biggest fan of slaves coming in from outside sources....like the Iron Ring. i say this as Thy's slaves are given as being ludicrously inexpensive. i don't think that it would be very cost effective or profitable to invest the moneys into taking slaves and then having to transport them to Thy if the selling price is going to be that low. plus...the enslaved have a chance at freedom by use of contacting their consolates. their freedom could be negotiated or simply bought by their kingdom of origin...remember that slaves are cheap. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:54:32 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Alphatia Criminal Pursuits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/00 6:59:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << > yes. actually if you look at Talitha and assume she derives from Mystara > there is ample grounds for thieves acting without a typical guild > organization. Talitha is limited in canon material yet comes off as being > rather a loner. afterall a TG is essentially a support structure for the > thieves in an area. however, a thieves guild may not neccessarily revolve > around the typical TG configuration .... such as Den of Thieves. the support > organization could actually be supported by aristos thus providing a degree > of magical output in their favor and a degree of protection within the legal > system. i also like the precept that the alph authorities don't accept the > possibilities of a thief based crime organization.+++ If there was a thieves guild it could be set up as a cell structure like that used by intelligence services, limiting the amount of damage that can be done in the event of counterintelligence activities.>> agreed. the cell structure could come heavily into use for the TGs. for instance each city could have several cells in operation. each of these are defacto the same TG but are ignorant of the other cells. thus exposure of one cell's thief team doesn't affect the whole. the trick is to provide that reason for these seperate cells to operate under a single authority. and in truth an organized body beyond the cell is not really needed... DotE mentions a Black Market being present in its Karameikan Thief's perspective on Alpherland. anyway....i think there'd be ample opportunities for these cells to purchase additional needs that the typical TG provided to its constituants. while getting the below esp quote i also noted a reference on pg 19 of DotE PGtA that seems to support the cell structure being used. the cell approach also opens opportunity for inner city cell fighting where each cell struggles against other cells for territorial rights. the situation hastens as a cell's lifespan would be rather short lived through detection or simply certain support attributes they have without a TG. of course the streets are ripe with new recruits.however as cells as opposed to outright TGs replacement training may be of lesser quality. so in that regard you would need some infrastructure to provide a training ground and rudimentary organization. this could be done in Blackheart where laws are rather wide open....imagine thief training camps and such. actually a cell may not even have a but a single thief in it and be in all regards a band of adventurers. I still like to think that somewhere in all of this are the central crime bosses that would typically lead a TG. it there very may be crime bosses. however i think that they would be very careful to cover their tracks.....possibly using the cells and numerous middle men and blind contacts to run the cells. it could also be fun to have some rather unexpected character types running these cells. hmm....i am liking the way this discussion is going. i am going to pull out my copy of Den of Thieves....not mention some old campaign logs and see if i can work up some material on this. > initial probes. but i think that it would be very difficult for someone to > repress the actual events pertaining to what his or she is being questioned > about. being held for questioning being a constant reminder at the incident. > if you ask a question, the individual must mentally register the events even > if it is to formulate a false response. this registration is the key to RW > lie detectors or interogations where body language is used to determine the > truth. Well, thats the saving throw. But it is a saving throw with a bonus in AD&D, ie not a very difficult one. The spell wasn't really intended to be used in that way IMO, its simply not that powerful.>> well....its use in interrogation is mentioned specifically in the adnd spell descript. but yes i agree that interrogation is a spin off of its use. being ODnD the choices were more limited. anyway....the save is unimportant as the spell would be cast in the sense of interrogation. i would think that the questioned individual is compelled to intentionall fail his save to avoid contempt of court or a simple presumption of guild. > < (and > not an eye witness at that - you might say his testimony is effectively > second hand) also limits the reliance that should be placed on magic. In a > magocracy where magic is the answer to everything doubtless magic is used, > but that doesn't necessarily mean that it works all the time. Its just a > case of>> > > yes but it is still more accurate than relying upon eye witness testimonies. > also i think that what is overlooked is the general intent of DotE in regards > to Alpher Law and its use of magic. essentially the premise is that if you > commit a crime or are a victim in one, the truth will come out. No it isnt, its as reliable as is the casting wizard. The whole system is wide open to abuse, depending on the reliability of the casting wizards. So performance could run the spectrum as I said earlier, from corrupt to uselessness to scrupulously fair.>> well...."since ESP is always used in criminal proceedings justice is swift and almost 100% accurate in Alphatia". -pg. 18 DotE: PGtA. to me that is pretty clear cut. the general consensus is that if you are guilty of a crime (should not have done what he had done or had evil intentions) the truth is going to come out. even if deamed innocent there is opportunity for the accused to be fined. to me that implies that the accused may be exonerated in the eyes of the law but still should not have been doing what they did....an added sense of justice. the "almost 100%" also allows a margin of leeway which can come in quite handy for adventure potential. still....i think the method is demonstrative of its overriding intent...accuracy at the behest of magic. hey you got a definative quote out me plus a paraphrase. <> actually if you go to Aaron Allston's web page.....http://www.io.com/~allston/....and look up his past works you'll see that the DotE Box mentions it being a description of the two corrupt empires. > Maybe Thy's slave laws are oddities compared to the RW institutions, but on > Mystara Thyatis and Alphatia seem to represent 90% of the worlds slave > trade. As James has already pointed out, there are very few (none?) nations > aside from these two empires that have the institution of slavery at all.>> > > mystarawise alph, thy, and milenia are the main slave states. of these three > alph and milenia are most consistent with each other and with RW slave > societies. thy slave practices are out of the ordinary as they imply some > hope of freedom in the long run. personally i see this aspect being made more > into a quasi-form of indentured servitude than outright slave status. Milenia is something else though effectively - Thyatis is effectively Milenia 1500 years on (yeah, I know the history, and Thyatis is not Milenia, but culturally the two are comparable). Though the point is fair enough.>> ah but the way that alphs and milenians view slavery is quite similar.....as well as differing from the Thys. > << The Thy laws make sense, because there are a lot more slaves in Thyatis > than > in Alphatia. This means the slaves presumably can pressure more easily for > some measure of human rights. >> > > what has struck me as being odd about the Thys is where they get all these > slaves. since the trend is for the Thys to offer citizenship to conquered > people for assimilation into the empire, the flow of new slaves is a bit > puzzling especially with so many slaves supposedly gaining their freedom > eventually. since thy slaves are numerous and needed for the empire's economy > where do these slaves come from. DotE has them numbering up to 30% in some > areas and being the basis for the thy economy. 30% is a vast number given the size of Thyatian cities. I'm not sure how well Thyatis treats its colonised dominions, or whether slavery is a hereditary condition, or whether it is used a punishment in the courts. But there must be a steady flow from somewhere, I guess. >> yes. and add that DotE mentions that most households have at least one slave and the slave population become very high throughout the empire. either way that's a lot of people. to maintain this slave pool i would think that thy slaves gaining their freedoms would be less than expected....but i'll go more into it in another mail. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:26:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >there is also Grave Digger, Orphanage, The Gathering, > >Amorhis (expecial the old one "Tales from the 1000 Lakes"), Moonspell.and some > >more) > >most of them you will never hear in the USA und in UK. > >but if you get them be funny. > > > >as non metal sound i chose mostly ciema music. > >Conan I, Conan II, Clannad "Legend" (made the Robin Hood TV sounds), > >Split second, 13 warrior (at the time i look for - in the film i like it). > >and there are some more > > Yes, that is good stuff, but as long as we're talking film music, I'd like to add Wojciech Kilar's music for Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula film (I won't call it 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' because IMO it's not!). Also, most music by Jerry Goldsmith or Ennio Morricone is excellent. If you want very scary and nerve-wrecking music try 'The Thing' (we tried it during Call of Cthulhu session - scccaaarrrryyy! :) ) Come to think of it, some John William's music (Star Wars, Superman, Indiana Jones, etc.) might also be good for heroic fantasy... yes dracula and the john williams starwars soundtracks i have too. aliens is also nice. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:21:09 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Big Party Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I thought about Immortal intervention (so an Immoral telling them to stop > >killing and do something for them) but I thought I have to save this for > >when this doesn't work out. don`t use Immortals as a messenger!!! if the Immortal has a Priest in that Group - fine give him a small poem, in the night. "those who kill good people,kill themself." even for evil creatures (PC). be not so hard and cut him off his spells. maybe he need them to make that again right what he done false. > >Could you inform what you would do in a situation described above? > >I could use some help because I need the PCs to become a tight group in > >order for them to go through some hard adventures. > >Thanks. Regards, to put PC in Jail is a very nice thing, but witch spellcast will be on next day still in jail? any time the PC in jail the star to flee. you can`t stop them, if you want to let it realistic. ok a DM has any power to hold a PC or to kill them, too. but if the are in jail for one year, the will have a normal jail. maybe handclufs. there will be no mage or priest that anyday cast some spells, to hold this persons. if there is an evil archmage, there will be one or more priest or mages. but for some poor murderers? use the dwarf as a powerful enemey. this will cost some life on the PC side, on th DM side,too. but the PC have only one creature (somtimes 2 (other story)) the DM is in his creatures not so close. IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:04:30 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>However, I still think that the cultures who either were placed in the Hollow World by the Immortals or who have been there so long that none of those who came from the outer world are still alive would be favored by the Spell or Preservation over recently arrived adventurers. If the Darokinian party I cited in an earlier message contained a single Glantrian mage, it would be ridiculous to imagine that the Spell of Preservation would protect that mage in any way even if he is the only Glantrian in the Hollow World. On the other hand, if he brought his entire household with him and settled down in some secret valley, then the Spell of Preservation might kick in to preserve them after a century or two -- but certainly not while that mage and the people who entered the Hollow World with him were still alive. << Read the first line you wrote. You mention cultures. That is the key word I think. Individuals from the outer world are not effected by the SoP. Even several individuals (like an adventuring party) would not be effected. But are several individuals equal to a culture, or are they just representatives of a culture? I admit that we are talking about a fine line. When do you have enough representatives of a culture to form a viable settlement of that culture? This is what the SoP will act upon...a culture taken as a whole...not individuals. In the example above, even your Glantrian mage who settles in the HW with his family (unless it is a really large family) will not be protected by the SoP any more than a group of PCs would. Nothing that I've read in about the HW suggests that time is a factor in the effects of the SoP. That elves are effected less is a good point. However nothing specifies that they are effected less due to their long lifespans, or because they are magical creatures. I could make the argument that their magical nature lessens the effects of the SoP just as easily. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:10:28 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Calvin wrote: > >Now let's say they place that small village in the HW, and then a large = >dino walks by and eats everyone. Since all of those people would have >been b= orn on the OW, then with your reasoning none of them would have >survived, an= d the implantation of that culture into the HW fails. I see >no proof anywhere= that this is the case. Of course, if the dinosaur had eaten all of the people in the village, we= would see no proof of their existence. :) (Not arguing the point, I actually agree with you; just making a little joke.) >Hmmm...I'm not sure that I would agree with this. The SoP does more tha= n >prevent the physical destruction of a culture...it also prevents the >cu= lture from changing/evolving (which in a way is a kind of destruction >of the culture, but not a physical destruction). True. But does leaving the SoP entail a change in the culture? Not necessarily, IMO. > It does this by enforcing cultural bias, which means (in my >interpreta= tion) that it can effect the mindset of a people. Therefore, >I'm not sure that= an entire culture could "choose" to leave the HW. Some >individuals might b= e able to do this...perhaps even a majority, But I'd >be willing to bet tha= t the SoP would cause just enough individuals to >"choose" to stay inside of the HW, in order to continue the culture. An admittedly extreme example, I admit. While I would, practically speaki= ng, concede that the likelihood of a whole culture leaving the SoP is unlikel= y at best, I'd say it's for a couple of other reasons than the SoP itself: 1) Size. The Milenian Empire completely uprooting and emigrating out of t= he SoP? Not friggin' likely, if only because there is such a huge population= to motivate and move. 2) Ignorance Is Bliss. None of the HWers know (or few enough, at any rate= ) of the SoP, or even the fact that they are in a "Hollow World", and so have = no real desire to leave. Most are just content to live out their day to day existences. Now, in the case of the HKs, I'd say that they could very well have left = the HW if they decided their interests no longer lay down there. For one thin= g, there are few enough of them that emigration isn't a major issue- after a= ll, they managed to get themselves in with few problems. Secondly, the HKs definitely are aware of an outside world, and know that they have somewhe= re to go to if they choose to leave. So it's entirely possible, IMO, that they = did leave. Perhaps only to regroup, but who knows? At any rate, I don't think the SoP would act in any way to motivate or otherwise coerce or force individuals to remain within its demesnes. Even= a "group" such as the few hundred HKs, I don't feel, would be subject to an= y sort of influence, simply because I don't think the SoP acts in such a ma= nner. As you yourself describe, it isn't (or shouldn't be) some sort of sentien= t or reasoning force. It's just a spell, and like any spell, shouldn't functio= n beyond its range. The HKs leaving its range doesn't, to me, involve any s= ort of change of their culture or mindset that the SoP could act on to preven= t. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:18:26 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Benson wrote: > > Thothia- did thothia ever leave? the thothians and alphers have a > longstanding relationship, each seeing the other as the only civilized people > on mystara. going by some sources the thothians/nithians were even a factor > in getting the alpher to mystara from old alphatia. in a post wrath sense, > Thothia joined nace as much as nace joined thothia. anyway...that thothian > alliance with the scattered alph territories was already forging itself into > an alliance in the PWAs. > The question here is, why Thothia doesn't run NACE? It's easily the most powerful member, and Ramenhotep certainly doesn't appear to be a nice fellow who would let his "co-members" tell him what to do. > Dunadale & Helskir- Heldun, as it is now referred to, is actually a Thy > initiated union of Dunadale and Helskir. the move was initiated by Thy > interests, though I cannot say who exactly penned the events. I wasn't the > biggest fan of the move, but obliged as it was what the team wanted to do. if > i had a bit more say in it, i would have pushed for Dierdren with its alph > derived populace be seperated from Heldun and be a seperate nace kingdom. i > say that as Heldun may be a Nace member, it is by no means a nace kingdom. it > is ruled by thy rulers and pays tribute to thyatis. So I would not read into > its Nace membership too much. > Spring, 1050 AC: Thyatis joins NACE. It's still ruled by Thyatians and pays tribute to itself, so don't read into its NACE membership too much :) > Aegos- A preWrath holding well in Nace waters, I saw no reason for the > acquisition of it by Nace. However there was opposition and it was turned > over as part of the Heldun project and as part of the Thy reacquisition of > ochalea and the pearl islands. as is the Aegos is not a gem. at best it is a > small agricultural island. The Pit is currently not a factor. in short its > acquisition was part of a nace consolidation of the alatian islands. as > mentioned the trade off was aspects of the Heldun agreement and the Och. and > pearl islands. > When you are a ruler of a big empire, you learn to hold on to your lands, no matter how small and insignificant they are, lest your empire falls apart (why do you think Russia holds on to Chechnya so fiercely?). As far as I can see there is no in-character reason for Eusebius to give away Aegos (NACE has no say in Ochalea or Pearl Islands, so it's not a factor... that trade off is effectively out-of-character). > Esterhold- it's easterhold.....not exactly a gem for nace. So why does NACE have to get it? Again, there is no in-character reason for doing so. > I am aware that the Kara example was used as an example but I feel that it > isn't applicable. Nace should not be confused with the old empire. as is Nace > is a confederacy...hence the name. membership is non threatening for member > kingdoms as there aren't many demands on the individual kingdoms. > Yet they all seem to act in concert, with hardly any differentiation between different rulers' agendas, and effectively no inter-member conflict. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:36:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I wasn't the biggest fan of the move, but obliged as it was what the team wanted to do. << Perhaps some time you might want to go into what your own original plan was. > > Aegos- A preWrath holding well in Nace waters > With this, as with others, you've described what happened but I think Solmyr was looking for the reasons that were used at the time. If my statements are considered tainted, then perhaps some worthy soul will step forward to give the rationale for these and other moves, but as I recall it had something to do with placing all former Alphatian areas under NACE in order to eliminate friction. > > Esterhold- it's easterhold.....not exactly a gem for nace. > The question isn't really what Esterhold means from the point of view of the NACE but explaining why the Jennites would want to be a member of the NACE, or have much to do with the Alphatians. Sure, some Alphers helped out in the revolts, but I for one am not sure that in their eyes (the Jennite's eyes) that would make up for everything - they might say thanks, now please leave. And as for NACE's interest in Esterhold, it would be a "prize" for the same reason Alphatia wanted it - resource mining. Plus a "prestige factor" related to the above under Aegos - no shrinkage of borders. > Norwold- as with Thothia...did NW ever leave?. > Again, with both of these places I think Solmyr was questioning why they were bundled into NACE in the first place. For example, with Norwold, the "plotline" of the original Norwold modules seemed to be pointing in direction of a goal of eventual independence. One might then think they wouldn't have much interest in joining the New Alphatian Empire. But I suppose in Norwold's case it doesn't matter too much, because one can't see much connection between NACE and Norwold (it's not clear what either gets from or gives to the other and how they benifit) - but I guess that's also why they'd join: not much in it for them, no hint, for example, of military help from their fellow NACE members during the wars of last year. So why join? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Alphatia Criminal Pursuits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > well...."since ESP is always used in criminal proceedings justice is swift and almost 100% accurate in Alphatia". -pg. 18 DotE: PGtA. to me that is pretty clear cut. << More DotE quotes on the matter of Alphatian justice: "Greenspur does not accord more rignts to non-spell-casters than other nations, but is more scrupulous about making sure that laws are enforced and trials of commoners are conducted fairly." - DM Sourcebook, p.45, under "Kingdom of Greenspur," under "Customs." So the Guide gives player's one impression for the consumption of PCs, while the Sourcebook gives the Dungeon Master the real scoop. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Sources of Thyatian slaves, and slaves in general. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > say...for example Thy forces move into a region. the locals marshall their forces to meet this advance. the thy commanders issue a proclaimation demanding surrender now or unconditional surrender later. if the indigenous opposition surrenders they hammer out the citizenship awards. if they resist and are beaten they become spoils of war....<< Hey, we more or less agreed. 8-) > > that may work in some slave roles. however i don't think that a potenital slave owner would want a convicted criminal .... especially one sentenced to slavery....working amid the household. i would think that mos crimainal slaves would be sent to the hard labor tasks...which should have a high mortality rate to begin with. << Mines are usually/traditionally the place to send convict-slaves. If they're of the "less vile" variety, they might get "lucky" and do roadwork/engineering tasks (move that rock from point A to point B). > > i am not the biggest fan of slaves coming in from outside sources....like the Iron Ring. i say this as Thy's slaves are given as being ludicrously inexpensive. << So are Alphatia's, too. They use the same "Cost" tables, found at the end of the DotE DM Sourcebook. Alphatia probably gets its slaves much the same way Thyatis does. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:55:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Slaving: Where to Get Them. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I doubt clerics of Valerias would do this, as she seems to be more > interested in love and romance than in the "end products", though her > clerics might aid in childbirth in general. However, twisted clerics of > Vanya could be used if whe were to establish her Matera persona in the KW. > DOH! That's who I meant just got the V babes mixed up again. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: Re: Hollow World 2000 (was HKs in the Hollow World (was In-Reply-To: <200005151540.LAA11743@freenet10.carleton.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Given that transferral to the HW can occur due to imminent annihilation of > a culture, sociological changes that threaten to alter it considerably > (ie: the Merry Pirates, where Korotiku moved some piratical Ostlanders and > Thyatians because he knew their cultures were evolving, and those elements > might not survive), or a bunch of other factors which I won't try to > identify right now, here is a list of possible moves to the HW, and why... Well, basically anything is possible in 1000 years - if one were to map the Mystaran world (or the real world), few powers remain from one millenium to the next. Thanks for the in-depth response - I'll just give my very brief thoughts on each - > Hinterlanders - increasing Thy. colonisation will ultimately alter their > culture past the point of no return (IMO within the next 25-75 years, but > possibly already since the empire has been in the area since AC 988 - > almost 30 years as of AC 1016), they are different from the Neathar tribes > already present (more advanced technologically, IMO), and so would merit > their own little region. Sounds like a good reason. I can see them joining the Thyatians as a colony with time, and they fit the HW theme well (in terms of being a lower-tech culture). > Thyatians - the reforms being initiated in the MA are moving the empire to > a more Byzantine (which I read as having more Milenian influences) model, > as opposed to Rome (from DotE and the PWAs). While it may seem slight, > the differences in organisation and nomenclature (and other factors > relating to them) will eventually alter the culture in more ways than the > superficial. IMO, the Thyatians of AC 1200 will be very different from > those of AC 1000. I don't see this as reason enough for a move, as it strikes me as a very minor change. > Northern Reaches - the decline of thralldom (possibly converting the > region into a sort of "Kingdom of Sweden" circa AD 1500 - AD 1700 over the > next few decades), and other modernisation initiatives by Vestland and to > a lesser degree Soderfjord (perhaps Ostland one day - though thralldom > seems to be in decline there to some degree), could see the eventual > disappearance of a true Viking culture from the KW. Would this be duplication with the Antalians? > Heldann - as time passes, the HKs might change their doctrines (perhaps Don't know enough to comment... > Ethengar - as clan wars progress, we could see one of more of them be > moved to the HW. Is each clan distinct enough? Ethengari culture seems pretty uniform to me... > Atruaghin clans - increased contact with Darokin (and other nations) might > see a repeat of what happened IRL. Diseases that were once unknown on the > plateau might wipe out whole tribes before the shamans begin to understand > their effects and how to fight them, or unscrupulous slavers (here's an > idea for the slavery thread) might see these fit, hardy folk as ideal > stock to replenish declining slave populations - and frequent raids could > sap the strength of the children of Atruaghin (perhaps aided by the > Children of the Viper) - the Turtle clan would probably be the easiest > pickings first off, but expeditions might be mounted on the plateau later > on (perhaps using the elevator that currently facilitates trade - how > ironic, really....). The solution, if this were to happen, would be to > move them to the HW. Others mentioned, during our Atruaghin discussion, that the clans fit better into the HW scheme of things, and your logic is sound. The Children of the Viper are too similar to the Azcans to preserve, but the others could be scattered about in the southern plains, adding more of a buffer between the Nithians and Milenians and expanding on the 4-culture theme of the south. - Mischa He who loves money shall never be satisfied with money - Ecclesiastes 5:9 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:44:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Max Monas wrote: > Hi everyone, > > In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included > killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? > I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should not > force it is players into any direction because they will not like this > because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them > is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? I am > afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or > quartered or somethin along the same lines. > They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause problems > if I solve it this way. in my showed way i think about a powerful enemey that could trow stones in the way of the PC. the PC will maybe die ar badly hurt if the make the next time an attack of someone. this one wll be ready. and there is a change like any battle that i will be death NPC and PC. if the charakters think that they can solve any problem by fighting it then the will play charakters that are made for killing things. the Atributes will increased in Str, Kon, Dex. the mental Int,Wis, will decreased. and Cha for what???(we don`t talk!!! we fight) you will have lot of fighters and fighter combiations. some battle mages Invo/envo spec, battle priest of wargods. the first way of solve a problem will be the attack. if that will happen do you think that you as DM will enjoy this game? �n my way maybe some of the PC die, but the rest will think about a new way to solve problems. and the new Charakters should see it in the same way!!! kill the best fighters nad mages in the party, if the have more then fighting power - spells like Dimension Door or even Teleport and use them...... there is allways the change to give up the fight. it could cost some Mag.- items or All money, but the get back there life. IBON it is a hard way, but the game will become better. sometimes i am a hard master, but if the PC are circled by 10 crossbow man and the count how much Dmg the can maximal do. and then they start an attack. i would all shot on the first taget. one PC will then die, but on the next time the party will think twice, it could hit anyone of them. i like also the critical hit system of the Players Option C&T the crossbowman will cover there target. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:36:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: EXP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > hello together > is there are an EXP table for PCs? > i have seen in many adventures there stand at the end of the charakter > diskription > a number of EXP for that on. > is there a table with that i can see how much an charakter NPC and PC is worth. > it will listen very hard, but how much exp is an PC worth? > IBON > Yes there is. In the RC it is on page 128. Take the PCs (or NPCs) level and just think of it as Hit Dice. Then cross-reference with the chart found on page 128 to give the base exp value. Then for each 2 spell levels the character can memorize (rounded up) add the amount listed in the "bonus per asterisk" column. If the character has a special ability that is relevent to the situation (i.e. thief skills, multiple attacks etc. but not things like turn undead, as this wouldn't effect a PC/NPC unless he/she was undead). For example: A 5th level magic-user would be worth a total of 425 xp. This would be calculated with the base xp award being 175, and two additional awards of 125 xp for being able to cast spells of up to 3rd level. A 4th level thief would be worth a total of 125 xp. This would be calculated with the base xp award being 75, and an additional award of 50 xp for thief abilities. It does mention about awarding extra bonus awards for each combat ability of magical items, but I don't use this as both PCs and major NPCs will (generally) have magical items, so they sort of cancel each other out. Unfortunately, I've lent my DMG out (I run OD&D so only use the DMG as reference material) so can't help you out for AD&D. Sorry. :(. I would assume though that it follows a similar system. . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:30:18 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves (was: Alphatia and ... bla, bla,bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Benson wrote: > > yes...but RW rome also impaled or crucified unruly slaves. Uhm, they crucification was a common penalty for many crimes, and wasn't especially reserved for slaves. Only citizens were exempt from tortures and similar penalties. > they also allowed > slaves to own slaves as well. > they also used slaves for backbreaking labor > which usually saw them perishing soonafter. As you say, slaves could have a wide range of economic situations. Thy slaves seem to be more "average" than Roman ones, but this kind of simplification is normal in a sourcebook composed o just a few pages. > but as you said...Thy slave laws > are less restrictive. *Most* Thy laws seem less restrictive than their Roman counterparts. As I said, Thyatians are what Romans could have been, had they lasted up to the Renaissance. > anyway...the perception is that Thy slaves eventually gain their freedom > quite easily. Considered the maximum fee they have to pay (100 gp, IIRC), this is not surprising. However, 100 gp is enough to prevent field-working slaves from buying their freedom. OTOH, a gladiator (or a slave who works as a clerk or butler, etc) might save this sum quite easily, but this kind of slaves are a minority. > imo this has been overemphasized with those gaining their > freedoms being more exceptions to the rule and for character > developement...as per Thincol. > > look at the case of Thincol, his slave status was as much a part of his > legendary stature as anything. would thincol of been as impressive and focal > if he had been a freeborne thyatian than his foriegner slave-turned > gladiator-turned imperial savior -turned emperor. it's part of his epic rise > from nothing to the most powerful entity on Brun. compare thincol to emperor > andronius of milenia and see what i mean. or for that matter compare thincol > to his son eusebius and see which are more epic. > Sure, you are right. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:28:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >Hmmm...I'm not sure that I would agree with this. The SoP does more than >prevent the physical destruction of a culture...it also prevents the >culture from changing/evolving (which in a way is a kind of destruction >of the culture, but not a physical destruction). True. But does leaving the SoP entail a change in the culture? Not necessarily, IMO. << Leaving the SoP may not constitute a change in culture (and a violation of bias) but it may constitute a decimation of culture. I'll exlain in more detail below. >>An admittedly extreme example, I admit. While I would, practically speaking, concede that the likelihood of a whole culture leaving the SoP is unlikely at best, I'd say it's for a couple of other reasons than the SoP itself: 1) Size. The Milenian Empire completely uprooting and emigrating out of the SoP? Not friggin' likely, if only because there is such a huge population to motivate and move. 2) Ignorance Is Bliss. None of the HWers know (or few enough, at any rate) of the SoP, or even the fact that they are in a "Hollow World", and so have no real desire to leave. Most are just content to live out their day to day existences. << I agree with this. Most cultures in the HW started out either as immortal transplants or refugees fleeing some disaster. In either case they wouldn't even have a reason to want to return to the outer world. HKs and Alphers are a whole new ballgame however. They both know (and have contact with) the outer world. The Alpher problem might be solved once the current generation is replaced...but even that might take a while for long lived mages. >>Now, in the case of the HKs, I'd say that they could very well have left the HW if they decided their interests no longer lay down there. For one thing, there are few enough of them that emigration isn't a major issue- after all, they managed to get themselves in with few problems. Secondly, the HKs definitely are aware of an outside world, and know that they have somewhere to go to if they choose to leave. So it's entirely possible, IMO, that they did leave. Perhaps only to regroup, but who knows? << This depends upon your definition of culture. See below. >>At any rate, I don't think the SoP would act in any way to motivate or otherwise coerce or force individuals to remain within its demesnes. Even a "group" such as the few hundred HKs, I don't feel, would be subject to any sort of influence, simply because I don't think the SoP acts in such a manner. As you yourself describe, it isn't (or shouldn't be) some sort of sentient or reasoning force. It's just a spell, and like any spell, shouldn't function beyond its range. The HKs leaving its range doesn't, to me, involve any sort of change of their culture or mindset that the SoP could act on to prevent. << Ok. First let me say I'm really enjoying this conversation. The following is merely how I handle the SoP IMC (and therefore how I think it should be handled). Let me know what you think: The SoP: First of all the SoP must be able to do several things if it is to preserve cultures in the HW. 1) The SoP must be able to determine what a culture is. I like to think of it as a complex computer program (since I'm a programmer, that's how I tend to think of a lot of things ;)). Although it's not senscient it must have the capability to do this. I think of it in an algorithmic way. If a viable culture is in the HW (and the algorithm determines what is viable and what is not) then the SoP will effect that culture. 2) Prevent a culture from being decimated. Once again the SoP must fall back on its cultural algorithm. There are x individuals in the Culture1. When x drops to y, intervene to preserve the culture. Since the SoP is not senscient it shouldn't care how Culture1 is dropping from a population of x to a pop of y. Whether Culture1 people are being killed in a war, a pirate raid, or if they are exiting through the poles, it won't matter to the SoP. 3) Prevent a culture from evolving. This is where cultural bias comes into play. The same algorithm applies, except now the SoP measures the number of individuals who are adhering to the bias against the number who are not. Once the number drops below the "cultural threshold" the SoP will act. This is why Nithia can absorb a city of Tanagoro into their culture, but would not be able to absorb all Tanagoro. Now to get back to our HK example. The determining factor with the HK should be "Does the SoP consider them to be a culture?" This would be determined by the SoPs cultural algorithm. I stated a few considerations for this algorithm in a previous post. 1) Are there males and females? 2) Are there enough people to propigate their species/culture? This would have to take cultural mating practices into consideration. Cultures that allowed polygyny (multiple females to one male) would be able to cut back on the number of men required, while monogomous cultures would need to have rather equal numbers of males and females. If these (and possibly other) requirements are met, the the SoP has a new culture to protect. It really shouldn't care how that culture got there. If the HK met these prerequisites (I'm not sure that they did actually...but I think it might be fun if they did), then by following the above 3 premises, there is no way that the HKs can be removed from the HW. If on the other hand, not enough HKs came into the HW to be considered a culture by the SoP, then I wouldn't treat them any different from an adventuring party. They should be able to come and go as they please. The SoP won't preserve/stagnate them, and it won't protect them from decimation. I thik that the first possibility is much more likely however, given the amount of time that the HKs have been in the HW. They established at least one base, and conquered (or occupied) at least one other culture - the Oostdok. They had done all of this by the 1960s, so they probably had been in the HW for some time before that. I think that my estimates of 30 years of HK occupation before the Alphers got there is quite conservative. They may have even converted some locals to their beliefs. The SoP wouldn't prevent this (as long as the converts came from a culture that was not threatened with extinction). This may in fact be why the HKs had such a problem converting the Oostdok. If the Oostdok were the only example of their culture in the HW, then the SoP would have interveened. Note that it did not prevent their conquest/occupation by the HK, but it did prevent their assimilation. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:53:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jeffrey Willis Organization: N/A Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, May 15, 2000 11:44 AM, erewan laubgaenger [SMTP:IBON@GMX.DE] wrote: > Max Monas wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included > > killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? > > I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should > > not > > force it is players into any direction because they will not like this > > because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them > > is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? I am > > afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or > > quartered or something along the same lines. > > They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause > > problems > > if I solve it this way. > > in my showed way I think about a powerful enemy that could row stones in > the way of the PC. > the PC will maybe die ar badly hurt if the make the next time an attack of > someone. > this one will be ready. > and there is a change like any battle that I will be death NPC and PC. > if the characters think that they can solve any problem by fighting it > then the will play characters that are made for killing things. > the Attributes will increased in Str, Kon, Dex. > the mental Int,Wis, will decreased. > and Cha for what???(we don't talk!!! we fight) > you will have lot of fighters and fighter combinations. > some battle mages Invo/envo spec, battle priest of wargods. > the first way of solve a problem will be the attack. > if that will happen do you think that you as DM will > enjoy this game? > in my way maybe some of the PC die, but the rest will > think about a new way to solve problems. > and the new Characters should see it in the same way!!! > kill the best fighters and mages in the party, if the have more then fighting > power - spells like Dimension Door or even Teleport and use them...... > there is always the change to give up the fight. > it could cost some Mag.- items or All money, but the get back there life. > IBON > it is a hard way, but the game will become better. > > sometimes I am a hard master, but if the PC are circled by 10 crossbow man > and the count how much Dmg the can maximal do. > and then they start an attack. > I would all shot on the first tagged. > one PC will then die, but on the next time the party will think twice, > it could hit anyone of them. > I like also the critical hit system of the Players Option C&T > the crossbowman will cover there target. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. One possibility is to have a NPC group of adventurers hear about the evil way that the group slaughtered an innocent (or innocents, you know how rumors fly :)) and have them come after them... make sure this party is very good. (Not necessarily Lawful but probably) and hopefully including a paladin. Having a champion of Right and Justice and Virtue coming after you, whether it be to arrest them or kill them or just to try to reason with them, can be a big blow... after all they're supposed to be the ultimate good guys, and maybe the PC's will realize where their actions are taking them... of course I didn't see the actual first post. I think it happened before I joined., or I just missed it... but if they are purposefully playing evil characters (or even neutral) then I say let their actions have their consequences, if you didn't force them to do the crime, let them do the time, so to speak... even if it means their deaths. They knew the law (I hope), and they acted against it. And maybe next time they won't... perhaps instead of death a major quest or something to reclaim their status... not a combat quest though... something that has to do with Mercy and Goodness :) Like Going on a major quest to get the components required to resurrect the one they killed... perhaps they don't need the components, but the church sends them on the quest anyway, to teach them a lesson... that their actions have consequences and maybe then they will think twice in the future. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:59:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Hollow World 2000 (was HKs in the Hollow World (was] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mischa E Gelman wrote: > > Northern Reaches - the decline of thralldom (possibly converting the > region into a sort of "Kingdom of Sweden" circa AD 1500 - AD 1700 over = > the next few decades), and other modernisation initiatives by Vestland = > and to a lesser degree Soderfjord (perhaps Ostland one day - though = > thralldom seems to be in decline there to some degree), could see the = > eventual disappearance of a true Viking culture from the KW. > >Would this be duplication with the Antalians? Not necessarily. Certainly the technology levels are different- iron age = as opposed to bronze age. I'd imagine certain clans of "modern" Northern Reaches people would just = be dropped into the HW near the realms of the Antalians. The Antalians would= think they'd been there all along, and just discovered them, while the NR= s would think they'd discovered a new land populated by their "backward" cousins. >> Heldann - as time passes, the HKs might change their doctrines (perhap= s > >Don't know enough to comment... I'd be surprised if the Heldannic culture hasn't already been transplante= d somewhere in the HW, since the events of the Hattian takeover in the late= 900s. >> Ethengar - as clan wars progress, we could see one of more of them be >> moved to the HW. > >Is each clan distinct enough? Ethengari culture seems pretty uniform to= >me... I'm with you on that one. I'd say that if Moglai Khan's plans of moderniz= ation had continued to progress (instead of being put on hold due to clanstrife= after his death) that the Ethengar population would probably have been transplanted in some part to the HW. As it stands, I'd say that we can ex= pect to see them there within the next century or two. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:37:25 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> I'd disaggree. If the death is a direct result of their actions, flouting the law, etc, and they have overturned an anthill of controversy, then they have had a complete control . . . over their destiny. They chose their path, but they might not like where it took them. Besides, I thought that you were trying to reign them in as players? If the death of a character is required to get this message accross to them, so be it. AS long as it isn't some random lightning bolt from the heavens, and is driven by the storyline, i'de go for it. <> Forgive me for playing devil's advocate here, but if your players are type you have descibed, they might see this as a dream assignment. "Hey, we get to wantonly kill, maim, and destroy, and its all okay cause we work for the king!! Let the hacking and slashing commence!" I'd suggest them getting in the legal trouble, becoming recognized as troublemakers by citywatch and locals, so that basic services in the area of their worst offences become impossible (You need your armor repaired? Sorry, Gunter the bloody, we're closed.) eventually driving them to seek adventure somewhere else. Also the already mentioned loss of spells to the cleric, due to the actions of his friends (or perhaps more appropriately, if the cleric has been roleplaying trying to stop the others) or his spells will not work only on the evil-acting characters. Here's the main point, however. What it sounds like to me is that you need to decide if you have a problem with the play style expectaions of you vs. your players for the game (you want them to talk/problem-solve, they want to kill,kill,kill.) Or do you have a prolem with the alignment of the characters your group has decided to play (you wanted to gm fantasy heroics, they wanted to be marauding anti-heros/tough guys). The two problems would have different solutions . . . and the most basic might be for YOU, the gm, to actually talk to THEM, the players, about the fact that you are having a tough time gming a group that only wants to fight all the time. Your all their supposedly there to have a good time, so talk to your players out of the gamesession, and maybe the characters will take care of themselves. BoBoII, last Son of the House of Dorfin ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:27:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On the back notes of the product NIGHTRAGE, there is mention of dark elves > wielding armor impervious to the internal sun the sharpest of blades (loose > citation, I know) > > I thought this product focused on the Nithian culture (ala Egypt?). Are > the dark elves just antagonists described in passing reference to the level > of detail of goblins or skeletons in most dungeon crawls, are these dark > elves a unique culture with rich detail in this product? > > Either way, what are they? Shadow Elves? no. they are schattenalfen. shadow elves turned to evil and the worship of atzanteotle mortus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:30:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: The Dark Shire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > what kind of music is it? > > Very cool heavy metal. > > Mike thanks i'll keep an eye out for it. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:12:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: "Country Sites" question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! > > 181 days, 15 hours, 14 minutes, 16 seconds till we run away. > > DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD, UNTIE! > > What should this mean????? > it's a joke! dyslexia is a disorder that causes people to write words the wrong way. it's like the dyslexic aetheist. he didn't believe in dog. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:55:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: pds3 Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 IMO Alfheim shouldn't have been relocated for a couple of reasons. First, as people have already said, their culture really isn't in danger. Secondly, I don't think the HW Council would let them in. Remember, this is happening as WotI is heating up, and Ilsundal has clearly taken sides. Ixion would certainly vote in favor of Ilsundal's petition, but Ka and Hel would likely oppose it: Ka sees it as an attempt to extend Ilsundal's influence into the HW to support the war effort while Hel would have this reason along with the obvious uselessness of the Alfheim elves for selecting agents for Hel's evil. Ordana and Korotiku could go either way. Ordana seems a bit more likely to vote for the elves, while Korotiku seems a bit more likely to oppose it. certanily for anyone who wants to add Alfheimers to the HW you could justify it, but IMO they really shouldn't be there. As for the Denagoth elves, I think they should be there. IIRC X11 implies that they had some undead magic--this, IMO, would make a very interesting elven culture--one which is willing to use the undead. But maybe they are too similar to all the other elves to justify it... Another idea--what of the Savage Barony that disappeared without a trace? I can't think of its name right now, but perhaps the long series of Hulean expansion and assimilation gave the immortals reason to remove them to the HW. Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eyal Fleminger: >>True, but the elven culture is centered more around the clan than their country, so as long as the clans exist, their culture isn't threatened. If all the clans were in danger of being wiped out, then the Immortals might remove some to the HW. << SteelAngel: >>Nope. The elves' culture hasn't changed enough. PLus, given the chance to get Alfheim back, there is no need. The Elven culture on Mystara is not going to die out. The Hollow World is a place for civilizations that are on the verge of being eliminated completely. The Elves aren't going to be eliminated. There are enough Elven civilizations, even in the Known World, to prevent Illsundal from even worrying. << Hold on. I wasn't aware that all elves on Mystara shared the same culture. In fact I got the opposite impression. Shyie certianly differ from Alfheimers, who in turn differ from Shadow Elves who in turn difer from Calarri, who in turn differ from Minrothad Sea Elves. In fact I would go as far as saying that no two outer world elven cultures are the same. Sure some are similar, but they definately don't share the same culture just because they are elves. Do all halflings share the same culture, or all dwarves, or all humans? That doesn't make any sense. Now, as to whether or not they belong in the HW...that's a different story. But I don't think you can make the argument that elves all over Mystara share the same culture, and therefore elves won't be placed in the HW until all elves everywhere are threatened. Besides, there are already several distinct elven cultures in the HW (Quite Folk (or whatever those whimps are called), Icevale, Schattenalfen, Blacklore, and probably more). If elven cultures could differ to such a degree in the past, then why not during present day Mystara. If I'm way off the mark on this one, I'll retract the above, but it sure sounds like this is what you are saying. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:50:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Shaham Ilan Subject: Re: creatures classes (was Becoming a Lich) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > there are still creatures that belongs to more then one group. > the drow - they are still elves and have also special magical skills. > so i say that they belong to the normal humanoid group and also to the > magical improved humanoid group. I think magical skills don't matter in this system. IMO a humanoid is anything with two hands two arms and a roughly human size (from halfling to ogre maybe). Exeptions are creatures that have no role in a "natural" enviroment and therefore are considered supernatural- ie undead, fairies, elevated beings, immortals, demons and so forth. > i explane that in they way - with that some of you will disagree - > druids are able to shapeshift. > i allow that druids can shift with the manmal part to become a manmal. > in most systems that manmal skill is used to become a fox, bear..... > i allow in addition to become a human. > because in a biological way humans are still manmals. > i also allow to become a griffon. > important notes!!!: the player should ask me if he want to become something > like a griffin. i had only explaned how i see that skill. > IMC the one druid only use the manmal skill to become an ork and an elf. > he has to that time not the idea to shift to a griffon. > but if he get it i would allow it. I don't quite understand where your going with that. BTW a griffon is not a mammal as it lays eggs. And I don;t think it is a mammal like a platipus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:11:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max Monas wrote: > < feeling that these people or nothing better than the Iron Ring, but the only > difference is that these lads are legal, so they can more or less do what > they want. Hopefully they will choose to quite them,>> > to which Masters Pawn replied > Forgive me for playing devil's advocate here, but if your players are type you have descibed, they might see this as a dream assignment. "Hey, we get to wantonly kill, maim, and destroy, and its all okay cause we work for the king!! Let the hacking and slashing commence!" That's what the players in my campaign who were offered the Karameikan Secret Service thought, but when they considered wantonly killing, maiming etc again, I just said "OK go for it, but you know the concequences." That one statement was generally enough to make them reconsider their actions, and they soon came to realize that through the KSS, they were being given a second chance, but if they reverted to their old (wanton slaying) ways, next time they're toast. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:42:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Allston Interview Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everyone, I have been lucky enough to land an interview with none other than Mystaran Old One Aaron Allston for Tome of Mystara #4! I thought it would be a good idea to get our readers involved in this. *Now, before I ask anything, please note that I do _not_ want replies sent to the MML (I try to stay on the List Ogre's good side when I can;) - so please send replies to my private mail, here or at valerya@webtv.net. Replies sent to the MML will not be considered. Okay, now that the BS is out of the way, here's the question: What would you like me to ask Mr. Allston in our interview? Simple enough. I'll pick those questions which seem to garner the most interest from our readers. Thanks for your time! Jennifer Guerra Editor, Tome of Mystara e-Zine http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:45:52 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jennifer Guerra Subject: Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello again! Just a reminder that Tome of Mystara e-Zine is currently accepting submissions for Issue #4. Submissions deadline is 1 June 2000. Please refer to our web page for complete submissions guidelines. Also, if you are thinking of submitting an adventure or article, and are not quite finished, please send us a brief description of the work in progress, so we can begin planning the size of the issue. Thanks, Jennifer Guerra Editor, Tome of Mystara e-Zine http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:30:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Big Party Problems resolved with Death of PCs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 15 May 2000 15:42:38 Max Monas wrote: >Hi everyone, > >In my reply to my last question I received some replies which included >killing a PC (or more). Do you think this will actually help? > Since I was one of the people to actually suggest this I had better respond. Yes, it can help, but it's harsh. And the players' feelings may be hurt as a consequence. It's a trade-off... >I mean, I have read everywhere (including on this list) that a DM should not >force it is players into any direction because they will not like this >because the will get the feeling that they are out of control. Killing them >is the ultimate way of showing them they don't have control, right? > I wouldn't exactly put it like that. What it does show is that while the players *do* have control over their characters, you, the DM, has control over the campaign. They can do what they want, but they must accept the consequences of what they do! > I am >afraid they will certainly not like it when the character is hanged or >quartered or somethin along the same lines. >They can create a new character but I am quite sure this will cause problems >if I solve it this way. True. I would hesitate to do this as well, but if things are as bad as you say, then it might be better if you let them know who controls the campaign now - it will hurt the players a lot more if you wait until their characters are much more experienced and you're finally fed up with their poor behavior and decide to make a few harsh examples (I've been down this road and it wasn't pretty - I wouldn't recommend it!) >I think I will have them expelled from town (maybe even forever) if they >refuse to do some work for the government (this means I will send them after >the Black Eagle Baron). Should they accept this assignment and I am quite >sure they will, five bodies will be found and the bodies will have their >names and they have to choose a new identity. Should they refuse they will >be sent to prison for 9 years. The Iron Ring might try to get them out, but >that will depend on how they behave towards the Iron Ring in the next couple >of sessions. If they do accept I think I will take Phillip Jones's idea of >the Karameikan Secret Service. I will make sure that they will get the >feeling that these people or nothing better than the Iron Ring, but the only >difference is that these lads are legal, so they can more or less do what >they want. It's a good plot and a good way to solve your problems. There is just one problem with it that would make me not use it IMC - it lets the PCs off the hook! If you bail them out now, how can you be sure that they won't do something like this again thinking 'Well, it doesn't matter - if it goes wrong the DM will get us out of this mess somehow. That's what he always does...' ? A Karameikan secret service is a good idea, but IMO it sounds like an idea designed to get badly-played PCs out of trouble every time - IMC I would make them live with the consequences. If they can't then they should have thought about what they did! (Harsh, I know, but aren't I right?) > Hopefully they will choose to quite them, so they will be hunted >by the City Guard in Specularum (and most likely also in cities and villages >throughout Karameikos), the Iron Ring (because they the Iron Ring and the >BEB will find out that they are still alive somehow) and the Karameikan >secret Service. >I think this will give them enough reason to think again before doing >something as they did before (I hope). > I think you voice just the same concerns here that I have: That your players won't learn the lesson. I may be wrong, though, and I hope it works for you. Let us know what happened. - The Stalker Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:11:15 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: DM Subject: Modules X4-5, X10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone! It's me again with a great opprotunity for you to complete your D&D collection. I've got near mint copies of the Desert Nomads Series X4: Master of the Desert Nomads, X5: Temple of Death and the fabled X10: Red Arrow, Black shield (with counters punched, but all present kept in a separate plastic bag) for sale. All three are sold together for the fair price of $24.00 + shipping fee (around 7 bucks for those who live inside USA, a little less for those who live in Canada, don't know bout the others..). As usual, first come first gets the items. PLease reply PRIVATELY to me, thanks! DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac First Officer of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Matthew Wang Subject: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shawn, I just wanted to drop a line and say "Wow!". I haven't been on the site for a couple of weeks now, but it looks great and thanks for all the hard work you have put in it! Matt Wang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:54:38 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Policemen of Hollow World (was Hollow World Alfheim Elves) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 5:33:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmcc@ESATCLEAR.IE writes: << [Of course the same could be said of HW Alphatia, what *were* the immortals smoking when they came up with the policemen of the HW idea :) ] >> One interesting idea is that perhaps the Immortals did not come up with that idea -- but the Alphatians themselves did, and Immortals friendly to Alphatia (with whom Alphatian clerics are most likely to commune) would have no reason to disabuse them of that notion. Then again, the original statement was that the intention of the Immortals was to persuade them to defend the "less advanced" cultures of the Hollow World from outside aggressors. That was an easy thing to do -- the trick was to find a way to stop them from becoming such aggressors themselves. But given that the Heldannic Knights were their only real competition, setting up Alphatia for that role would seem to be overkill -- unless, of course, the Hollow World actually does face a future threat from some outer world power that might actually require the might of Alphatia to stop. The Heldanners just don't seem to qualify in that regard, given the small amount of Hollow World territory they controlled. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:21:13 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site In-Reply-To: <20000516011259.12961.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:12 PM 5/15/00 -0700, Matthew Wang wrote: > >I just wanted to drop a line and say "Wow!". I haven't >been on the site for a couple of weeks now, but it >looks great and thanks for all the hard work you have >put in it! I was going to say something also, but I've been plugging http://dnd.starflung.com far too much lately... Whoops! Did it again! ;) Actually, I did want to say that I love the new logo look that Shawn put up there in the most recent update. Awesome! I like the look of the pages as is, but a little color definitely makes the rest of the page that much more striking! ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:05:39 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Hollow World 2000 (was HKs in the Hollow World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 3:00:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << I'm with you on that one. I'd say that if Moglai Khan's plans of modernization had continued to progress (instead of being put on hold due to clanstrife after his death) that the Ethengar population would probably have been transplanted in some part to the HW. As it stands, I'd say that we can expect to see them there within the next century or two. >> Then again, Moglai Khan did wipe out two whole Ethengarian clans. Maybe the Immortals transported a few survivors from those clans to the Hollow World? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:05:44 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 11:41:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << >I would suggest that a culture whose members find their own way to the >Hollow World would not be affected by the Spell of Preservation until it no >longer has any members in the Hollow World who were not born there. >On this basis, the Beastmen and Schattenalfen would be under the spell >of preservation, but the Heldannic Knights and the Norwold Malamute >Lupins would not be. I don't agree with this. Let's say that the immortals scoop up a culture and place them in the HW (the Nithians for example). >> Your example falls apart right there. The delay that I suggested would apply only to people who "find their own way to the Hollow World" -- those who are placed there by an Immortal with the intent of "saving" them would fall under the Spell of Preservation immediately. But you are right that the Spell of Preservation should affect cultures to a greater extent than individuals. For those cultures who reached the Hollow World on foot rather than being carried there by the Immortals, I would suggest that they become full "natives" as soon as the last member of their culture in the Hollow World who was born in the outer world dies. For a culture relocated to the Hollow World by the Immortals, I would suggest that the main effect of having survivors from the outer world is that they would still have a few years left to develop before the stasis of "cultural bias" sets in. Once the last survivor from the outer world dies, they are limited to whatever armor and weapons they developed up until that point, and they receive their special compensation (if any) at that time. In a message dated 2000-05-15 12:04:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << I admit that we are talking about a fine line. When do you have enough representatives of a culture to form a viable settlement of that culture? This is what the SoP will act upon...a culture taken as a whole...not individuals. In the example above, even your Glantrian mage who settles in the HW with his family (unless it is a really large family) will not be protected by the SoP any more than a group of PCs would. >> Since I was unaware of the distinction later suggested about whether a group of people form a viable culture, then I will suggest that we are talking about a large household -- not just the immediate family but cousins, servants, and assorted hangers-on. Let us assume that there are enough of them to form a viable culture. I would suggest that the time factor should apply to them as well as to the Heldannic Knights because the Spell of Preservation has to work on attitudes -- and attitudes will not change unless enough time has elapsed that nobody in that culture has a living memory of the outside world (as would be the case with those who reach the Hollow World under their own power) or the Immortal(s) who transfer them there monkey with their heads (as would be the case with most Immortal relocations). Once a "critical mass" of the culture has the right attitudes, the Spell of Preservation could kick in. What is that critical mass? The percentage of the Alphatian population that is below 9th level, of course. << HKs and Alphers are a whole new ballgame however. They both know (and have contact with) the outer world. The Alpher problem might be solved once the current generation is replaced...but even that might take a while for long lived mages. >> Actually, since the Alphatians include the Shiye-Lawr elves, we are talking about a period of nearly a thousand years for the current generation to be replaced even if no human Alphatians use life-extending magic (which of course quite a few will do). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:05:37 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 10:09:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, spymaster@PLANETFORTRESS.COM writes: << The Hollow World is a place for civilizations that are on the verge of being eliminated completely. The Elves aren't going to be eliminated. There are enough Elven civilizations, even in the Known World, to prevent Illsundal from even worrying. >> Of course, one trick is to define what is meant by a "culture". In the above statement you imply that elves make up a single culture -- and that is clearly not true. The Shiye-Lawr elves WERE removed to the Hollow World -- the fact that other elves survived elsewhere in the world was meaningless. But I think that a lot is left to the discretion of patron Immortals. It is likely that the demihumans of Davania who migrated to Brun were not sent to the Hollow World precisely because their patrons saw the move as a way to preserve and not change their culture -- and also because expending the Power Points to save a civilization in that way would be an admission of defeat that most Immortals would be reluctant to make while they could see alternatives. >From the viewpoint of Ilsundal, the most likely option for preserving the culture of the Alfheim Clans would be to arrange a migration to the Sylvan Realm or to some other forest well removed from the dangerous enemies and influences that they face in the Known World. With elven lifespans, he has a LONG time to consider that move. In any case, the following human cultures were removed to the Hollow World when they were not in physical danger of extinction: Brute-Men, Lizard Men, Neathar, Azcans, Oltecs, Tanagoro, Antalians, Jennites, Hutaakans, Traldar, Makai, Nithia, Orcs (Krugel), Milenians, and Shahjapur. In all of these cases their physical descendants or near kin survive in the Outer World, and in many cases the same can be said of their culture. Obviously the rules for deciding which cultures to place in the Hollow World are quite flexible, as the threat of complete physical destruction of a distinctive cultural group accounts for no more than half of the cultures described in the Hollow World boxed set. In a message dated 2000-05-15 3:56:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pds3@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: << IMO Alfheim shouldn't have been relocated for a couple of reasons. First, as people have already said, their culture really isn't in danger. Secondly, I don't think the HW Council would let them in. Remember, this is happening as WotI is heating up, and Ilsundal has clearly taken sides. Ixion would certainly vote in favor of Ilsundal's petition, but Ka and Hel would likely oppose it: Ka sees it as an attempt to extend Ilsundal's influence into the HW to support the war effort while Hel would have this reason along with the obvious uselessness of the Alfheim elves for selecting agents for Hel's evil. Ordana and Korotiku could go either way. Ordana seems a bit more likely to vote for the elves, while Korotiku seems a bit more likely to oppose it. certanily for anyone who wants to add Alfheimers to the HW you could justify it, but IMO they really shouldn't be there. >> I see two major problems with this argument: 1) Where is it written that the agreement of the Hollow World Council is required to relocate a culture to the Hollow World? In the Hollow World boxed set there are repeated references to some single Immortal moving a remnant of a disrupted culture there without any mention of politicking to get approval from others. But I suspect that there would be an informal rule -- Keep those relocations small! The relocation of the Alphatians would have required a vote of the Council, but a smaller group that does not have the obvious intent of attempting to dominate the Hollow World would probably slip by. 2) Even if a vote were required, Ilsundal should have had little trouble getting a favorable vote from both friends and enemies, with Hel perhaps being his sole opposition. Since all of the real fighting in WotI was being conducted in the outer world rather than the Hollow World, a request by an Immortal to remove a culture that follows that Immortal would be viewed as an offer of surrender. Thus, Ilsundal's enemies would be more agreeable than his allies to such an offer -- and once Alfheim has fallen to the Shadow Elves, even Ixion would see no point in trying to keep them on the surface. Thus, I think that the real reason the Alfheim elves were not removed to the Hollow World is that Ilsundal was not ready to give up on them as a viable outer world culture -- they had emigrated from other homelands and could certainly reconquer Alfheim or find a new homeland before they forgot their old ways. But if Ilsundal had decided to "throw in the towel" during the Shadow Elf invasion, the Alfheim elves would have disappeared into the Hollow World almost immediately. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:55:00 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Sources of Thyatian slaves, and slaves in general. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 11:55:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alex295@AOL.COM writes: << that may work in some slave roles. however i don't think that a potenital slave owner would want a convicted criminal .... especially one sentenced to slavery....working amid the household. i would think that mos crimainal slaves would be sent to the hard labor tasks...which should have a high mortality rate to begin with. >> Then again, the exact nature of the crime could make a difference -- the "greater charges" do include a number of potentially non-violent offenses such as theft of more than 100 GP value, perjury, tax evasion, and perhaps treason. With that list and the infamy of Thyatis for corruption and treachery, I think these non-violent criminals could be a major source of slaves. Keep in mind that the alternative punishments of death or life on Borydos Island are available for more violent offenders. In a message dated 2000-05-15 1:04:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << > > i am not the biggest fan of slaves coming in from outside sources....like the Iron Ring. i say this as Thy's slaves are given as being ludicrously inexpensive. << So are Alphatia's, too. They use the same "Cost" tables, found at the end of the DotE DM Sourcebook. Alphatia probably gets its slaves much the same way Thyatis does. >> I hate to bring the real world into this, but in the 20th century slaves have a very low monetary value (because of the high "supply" relative to the very limited "demand"). While I doubt that the folks at TSR would have been doing research in such areas, similar forces would be at work on Mystara to reduce the value of slaves in the few places where they are kept. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:55:03 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 11:55:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alex295@AOL.COM writes: << Esterhold- it's easterhold >> You sure about that one? Every source I have access to says "Esterhold". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:55:02 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: "V Babes" (was Slaving: Where to Get Them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-15 1:26:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << DOH! That's who I meant just got the V babes mixed up again. >> Uh oh! You just called them "babes"! You had better go join Rathanos in hiding from their wrath! ;) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:53:19 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A list of other rock pieces: Emerson, Lake and Palmer: ELP; Tarkus Jethro Tull: Thick as a Brick; Broadsword and the Beast; Songs from the Wood King Crimson: Lizard, In the court of the Crimson King Blind Guardian: Nightfall in Middle Earth; Imaginations from the other side; Tokyo Tales Rhapsody: Legendary Tales, Symohony of Enchanted Lands Yes: Fragile, Close to the Edge, Relayer Plus many more metal or progressive rock bands... Feel free to ask me more (personally too) on the albums. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:53:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: "Country Sites" question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mortus ha scritto: > > > Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! > > > 181 days, 15 hours, 14 minutes, 16 seconds till we run away. > > > DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD, UNTIE! > > > > What should this mean????? > > > it's a joke! > dyslexia is a disorder that causes people to write words the wrong way. > > it's like the dyslexic aetheist. > > he didn't believe in dog. > Good Joke! > > mortus. Yeah...I was more concerned by the 181 days etc. etc. Thanks anyway!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 03:47:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he > didn't exist." - Keyser Soze > OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:38:52 +0800 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Francisco V. Navarro" Subject: Paparazzi Glantri Special Spring Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hail Mystarans! The Paparazzi Glantri have been busy as bees, buzzing around the Glantrian rumor mills. There's a special update ready for springtime, which includes: * Rumors about Fenswick. An interview with Princess Dolores herself! * Rumors abour Morlay-Malinbois. Want to know the truth about the White Wolf? * Etiquette on Rumormongering. The second most important art in Glantri... * The Death of Lamberto Fulvina. The story retold, with special permission from Signor Giovanni Fulvina and Signor Giampaolo di Malapietra. Have a look! www.geocities.com/paparazzi_glantri * Safe viewing for PCs. Melisante Erewan Correspondent Paparazzi Glantri paparazzi_glantri@yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:12:46 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: "Country Sites" question In-Reply-To: Caroletti's message of "Tue, 16 May 2000 09:53:23 +0200" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Caroletti writes: > Yeah...I was more concerned by the 181 days etc. etc. Oh, that's just till my vacation. 8^) -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 179 days, 2 hours, 22 minutes, 29 seconds till we run away. Optimization hinders evolution. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:26:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question which has probably been answered but I missed it. When the Immortals rebuilt Alphatia for the hollow world why was it left with it's outer world E/W orientation? How are they supposed to police the area when they can't even find their way around? Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:38:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: [OT] Wow Great Update on the Site In-Reply-To: <005301bfbee1$2eb38820$654030d5@pauldool>; from dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 03:47:55AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 03:47:55AM +0100, Paul George Dooley wrote: > > "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he > > didn't exist." - Keyser Soze > > > OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? Maybe we should put the answer in the FAQ :) gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:53:12 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Hollow World 2000 (was HKs in the Hollow World >Then again, Moglai Khan did wipe out two whole Ethengarian clans. Maybe >the Immortals transported a few survivors from those clans to the Hollow >World? That's what I was thinking about, actually. IIRC, the gaz mentions that each clan has distinctive clothing and habits (and in one of them the warriors cut off their little fingers, IIRC). Perhaps those two lost clans had unique traditions and habits that might be worth preserving in the HW? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained ><< Esterhold- it's easterhold >> > >You sure about that one? Every source I have access to says "Esterhold". Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:37:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: "V Babes" (was Slaving: Where to Get Them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Uh oh! You just called them "babes"! You had better go join Rathanos > in hiding from their wrath! ;) > What with Vanya having a 33 Cha, and Valerias an 80 Cha. I think the "Babe Alert" has already sounded on them! ;-P ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:16:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site In-Reply-To: <005301bfbee1$2eb38820$654030d5@pauldool> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:47 5/16/00 +0100, Paul wrote: >> "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he >> didn't exist." - Keyser Soze >> >OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? A magician famous in the 1970s. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:29:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? > > A magician famous in the 1970s. > Apparently not quite so famous as first thought! Was he perchance an American? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:38:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site In-Reply-To: <010601bfbf43$71bd2b00$8a8975c2@pauldool> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:29 5/16/00 +0100, Paul George Dooley wrote: >> >OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? >> >> A magician famous in the 1970s. >> >Apparently not quite so famous as first thought! Was he perchance an >American? We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:43:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. > Oh, you mean like Scousers loathe Cilla! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:43:46 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/15/00 12:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: << Alex Benson wrote: > > Thothia- did thothia ever leave? the thothians and alphers have a > longstanding relationship, each seeing the other as the only civilized people > on mystara. going by some sources the thothians/nithians were even a factor > in getting the alpher to mystara from old alphatia. in a post wrath sense, > Thothia joined nace as much as nace joined thothia. anyway...that thothian > alliance with the scattered alph territories was already forging itself into > an alliance in the PWAs. > The question here is, why Thothia doesn't run NACE? It's easily the most powerful member, and Ramenhotep certainly doesn't appear to be a nice fellow who would let his "co-members" tell him what to do.>> well without getting too deep into future events....at its entrance into Nace thothia did have a great deal of influence in council matters. with its repatriation of several IoD kingdoms and subsequent placement of their handpicked rulers, this guaranteed them allies and multiple votes. also thothia's percieved "lone stand" against thy forces also warranted them an added deal of prestige and influence. however as nace grows with new additions to the fold, the number of council votes increases as well. thus thothia's once sizable vote cluster is made less and less significant. imo why they didn't take over nace was two-fold. first there was no central authority within nace so at best you had Rep. Ragmon as a quasi-council head for a period. second the influx of other nace members was rather quick and probably caught them off guard as the powerbase shifted. once that momentum was lost there was no other alternative than to assume a normal place within the nace fold. > Dunadale & Helskir- Heldun, as it is now referred to, is actually a Thy > initiated union of Dunadale and Helskir. the move was initiated by Thy > interests, though I cannot say who exactly penned the events. I wasn't the > biggest fan of the move, but obliged as it was what the team wanted to do. if > i had a bit more say in it, i would have pushed for Dierdren with its alph > derived populace be seperated from Heldun and be a seperate nace kingdom. i > say that as Heldun may be a Nace member, it is by no means a nace kingdom. it > is ruled by thy rulers and pays tribute to thyatis. So I would not read into > its Nace membership too much. > Spring, 1050 AC: Thyatis joins NACE. It's still ruled by Thyatians and pays tribute to itself, so don't read into its NACE membership too much :)>> actually i think you are giving the matter too much headway. as mentioned i was not altogether thrilled with the move. truthfully i don't recall who wrote the heldun material. the particulars of that subject were decided upon fairly early on. since i wasn't really involved in it, i did not pay it that much attention. i amy have some of the old discussions stashed away in old discussion mails. i guess that i could dig the out. however it may be best if the author spoke with you in private to avoid any potential spoils. likewise if you are interested in what i would have done i would be more than happy to discuss it in private mail. > Aegos- A preWrath holding well in Nace waters, I saw no reason for the > acquisition of it by Nace. However there was opposition and it was turned > over as part of the Heldun project and as part of the Thy reacquisition of > ochalea and the pearl islands. as is the Aegos is not a gem. at best it is a > small agricultural island. The Pit is currently not a factor. in short its > acquisition was part of a nace consolidation of the alatian islands. as > mentioned the trade off was aspects of the Heldun agreement and the Och. and > pearl islands. > When you are a ruler of a big empire, you learn to hold on to your lands, no matter how small and insignificant they are, lest your empire falls apart (why do you think Russia holds on to Chechnya so fiercely?). As far as I can see there is no in-character reason for Eusebius to give away Aegos (NACE has no say in Ochalea or Pearl Islands, so it's not a factor... that trade off is effectively out-of-character).>> well...once again one of the key factors deals with a major spoiler...so i'd rather not go into that aspect. other than that the aegos matter is multifacetted. first, aegos was out of the way for thy to support with troops and had to be a logistical drain. this is especially so during the C-War and Twaelor war, where resources are needed and the sealanes less than secure. second the island was part of a land-swap of sorts. though nace has no authority over Och. and the PIs that is not to say that either could not come into nace's fold in the coming future. afterall Thy has its hands full militarily and really could not do too much to halt any nace expansion there. the agreement is just that...an agreement that nace has no current interests in Och. and the PIs. third, the agreement establishes Alph and Thy spheres of influence in the area, consolidating them in clearly defined regions instead of various scattered kingdoms. anyway....anything more than that will have to come from Herve as i feel that offering anything ese will compromise future events. > Esterhold- it's easterhold.....not exactly a gem for nace. So why does NACE have to get it? Again, there is no in-character reason for doing so.>> well....ES is under alph rule when it enters into nace. also its entrance is not without troubles. however, those asside i would say that the easiest way to expalin it is the most direct. you have an alpher ruling class running a kingdom of mostly oppressed jenites. though much changed with the rise of Favian Vern, the ES holdings are still rather precarious. having an ally in nace is quite beneficial in that it provides a lifeline should things heat up. asside from that I once again defer to Herve to provide any additional details out of respect for future events and spoiler possibilities. > I am aware that the Kara example was used as an example but I feel that it > isn't applicable. Nace should not be confused with the old empire. as is Nace > is a confederacy...hence the name. membership is non threatening for member > kingdoms as there aren't many demands on the individual kingdoms. > Yet they all seem to act in concert, with hardly any differentiation between different rulers' agendas, and effectively no inter-member conflict. >> well...in this sense spoiller possibilities is highly possible if too much is said. however i would add that all of this is quite the result of a general lack of contributor participation in 1015. iirc it was basical Herve alone back then. this is not uncommon as the MA list of contributors has grown with each published volume. anyway...the general consensus is that need bred rapid implementation of mandates. many "problems" should show themselves in upcoming volumes due to this rather rapid recovery process. you may not believe this, but this system has been in the planning stages since development for 1016 began. it's really a long term plan paced out over several years. so i stress patience....and a look at foreshadowing hints in past events. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:53:13 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/00 12:56:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kaviyd@AOL.COM writes: << << Esterhold- it's easterhold >> You sure about that one? Every source I have access to says "Esterhold". >> huh? oh i see. nah ...the "it's easterhold" reference was a reference more to its overriding value...or should i say lack of value. i hadn't noticed the mispelling....until right now. in the AS team we usually refer to it as ES. sorry about that i hope that the person that i was responding to did not think that it was intended as a spelling correction. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:16:56 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable << The Hollow World is a place for civilizations that are on the verge of being eliminated completely. The Elves aren't going to be eliminated. There are enough Elven civilizations, even in the Known World, to prevent Illsundal from even worrying. >> > In any case, the following human cultures were removed to the Hollow > World when they were not in physical danger of extinction: Brute-Men, > Lizard Men, Neathar, Azcans, Oltecs, Tanagoro, Antalians, Jennites, > Hutaakans, Traldar, Makai, Nithia, Orcs (Krugel), Milenians, and = Shahjapur. > In all of these cases their physical descendants or near kin survive = in the > Outer World, and in many cases the same can be said of their culture. I thought that the Brute-Men were extinct in the OW...even if their = descendants live on, they're not Brute-Men, but an evolved race. I'll agree with you that the Antalians seem close to the Northern = Reaches and Oceansend cultures. They seem more like a case where Odin = and Thor wanted a piece of the action in the HW. You calling the Krugel a "human culture", my friend? And BTW the Krugel = were the only mounted orcs in Mystara, which is probably part of what = Karaash sought to preserve. As for most of the others - their descendants might live on in the OW, = but either they've evolved or they've devolved (is that a word in = English; I hope you know what I mean). F.ex. the Azcans have little in = common with the Atruaghins AFAIK. In most of these cases the cultures = were preserved at the peak of their civilization; before they began = their decline. So you've got an Azcan Empire, Milenian do., etc. > Obviously the rules for deciding which cultures to place in the Hollow > World are quite flexible, as the threat of complete physical = destruction > of a distinctive cultural group accounts for no more than half of the > cultures described in the Hollow World boxed set. Per the above, I think that physical destruction is rarely a reason for = placing cultures in the HW. Rather massive cultural changes is the most = common reason. Of course it's very hard to predict ahead of time that a = culture will undergo massive changes, so maybe some cultures were placed = a bit prematurely in the HW, and have descendants that are very close to = their original culture still living in the OW. And most of the cultures = have descendants in the OW that are nothing like the preserved culture = in the HW. So, actually I agree with whomever made the statement that the HW is not = just for cultures that face physical destruction; it is primarily for = cultures that face events that will totally change their way of life = with no hope of restoring it in the OW. So, I think that the Alfheim = elves don't necessarily need to be put in the HW just yet. Their culture = still exists even if scattered, and the elves might still build an = Alfheim culture somewhere else (such as the Sylvan Realm) without facing = changes that will totally ruin their society. << IMO Alfheim shouldn't have been relocated for a couple of reasons. = First, as people have already said, their culture really isn't in danger. = Secondly, I don't think the HW Council would let them in. Remember, this is = happening as WotI is heating up, and Ilsundal has clearly taken sides. Ixion would certainly vote in favor of Ilsundal's petition, but Ka and Hel would = likely oppose it: Ka sees it as an attempt to extend Ilsundal's influence into = the HW to support the war effort while Hel would have this reason along with = the obvious uselessness of the Alfheim elves for selecting agents for Hel's = evil. Ordana and Korotiku could go either way. Ordana seems a bit more likely = to vote for the elves, while Korotiku seems a bit more likely to oppose it. certanily for anyone who wants to add Alfheimers to the HW you could = justify it, but IMO they really shouldn't be there. >> >=20 > I see two major problems with this argument: >=20 > 1) Where is it written that the agreement of the Hollow World Council = is > required to relocate a culture to the Hollow World? In the Hollow = World > boxed set there are repeated references to some single Immortal moving > a remnant of a disrupted culture there without any mention of = politicking > to get approval from others. But I suspect that there would be an = informal > rule -- Keep those relocations small! The relocation of the = Alphatians > would have required a vote of the Council, but a smaller group that = does > not have the obvious intent of attempting to dominate the Hollow World > would probably slip by. No, it is not written explicitly that the HW Council have to agree to = have cultures moved into the HW. But they are all Hierarchs, they all = helped create the HW, and they all have a lot of interest in what's = going on in the HW. I think that you at least have to petition the = Hierarch that represents your Sphere in the Council to be allowed to = move any culture into the HW. Of course if you're a Hierarch yourself, = you might just go ahead and see what happens (might makes right). And = I'm pretty sure that the HW Council are there to govern admission into = the HW in the first place. Since they placed the Spell of Preservation = they hardly need to observe the HW for trouble, and since most of them = are pompous and >snipped nasty adjectives< Immortals, they probably want = a say in who gets admission into their playground (as in: I created this = place, you better show respect if you want a piece of the action!). > Thus, I think that the real reason the Alfheim elves were not removed = to the > Hollow World is that Ilsundal was not ready to give up on them as a = viable > outer world culture -- they had emigrated from other homelands and = could > certainly reconquer Alfheim or find a new homeland before they forgot = their > old ways. But if Ilsundal had decided to "throw in the towel" during = the > Shadow Elf invasion, the Alfheim elves would have disappeared into the > Hollow World almost immediately. I totally agree with this! (Nice with a short statement for a change; = even if it isn't proper netiquette) :) and sorry about that... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:06:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently not quite so famous as first thought! Was he perchance an >American? We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. That aside, did he not perform on Broadway in the musical "Merlin?" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:33:31 +0300 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Solmyr of the Azure Star Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feel free to transfer this to private discussion at any time if you don't want to make public spoilers... I'm interested in hearing your replies to my queries. Alex Benson wrote: > > well without getting too deep into future events....at its entrance into Nace > thothia did have a great deal of influence in council matters. with its > repatriation of several IoD kingdoms and subsequent placement of their > handpicked rulers, this guaranteed them allies and multiple votes. also > thothia's percieved "lone stand" against thy forces also warranted them an > added deal of prestige and influence. however as nace grows with new > additions to the fold, the number of council votes increases as well. thus > thothia's once sizable vote cluster is made less and less significant. imo > why they didn't take over nace was two-fold. first there was no central > authority within nace so at best you had Rep. Ragmon as a quasi-council head > for a period. second the influx of other nace members was rather quick and > probably caught them off guard as the powerbase shifted. once that momentum > was lost there was no other alternative than to assume a normal place within > the nace fold. > There's always an alternative... Ramenhotep doesn't strike me as the type to meekly accept being weakened. What would prevent him from saying, "give me greater rights and influence within your confederation, or lose the Isle of Dawn and your protection against Thyatis"? > well...once again one of the key factors deals with a major spoiler...so i'd > rather not go into that aspect. other than that the aegos matter is > multifacetted. first, aegos was out of the way for thy to support with troops > and had to be a logistical drain. this is especially so during the C-War and Looking at the map, Aegos is right next to Thyatian-controlled Furmenglaive and Caerdwicca, not to mention Thyatian-ruled Gaity. If Thyatis can keep a garrison in Gaity, it sure can keep one in Aegos. > Twaelor war, where resources are needed and the sealanes less than secure. > second the island was part of a land-swap of sorts. though nace has no > authority over Och. and the PIs that is not to say that either could not come > into nace's fold in the coming future. afterall Thy has its hands full How would they come into NACE's fold? There is no reason for them to do so. Sure, Ochaleans are "Alphatians" (though I consider them a separate culture at this point), but they have preferred Thyatian leadership over Alphatian for 1000 years, so why suddenly change it now? Accept it, NACE has no influence southwest of Aegos, except one scripted to it. > militarily and really could not do too much to halt any nace expansion > there. the agreement is just that...an agreement that nace has no current > interests in Och. and the PIs. third, the agreement establishes Alph and Thy Well, even if mainland Thyatis has its hands full and cannot send off garrisons to Aegos (which I suspect doesn't take much to garrison), surely the nearby IoD Thyatian rulers (the Archduke of Westrourke, the Baron of Caerdwicca) would be able to keep it garrisoned rather than let it fall into the hands of Alphatians. > spheres of influence in the area, consolidating them in clearly defined > regions instead of various scattered kingdoms. anyway....anything more than And which of the two is more fun and conductive to adventuring? > that will have to come from Herve as i feel that offering anything ese will > compromise future events. > Like I said, I'm willing to hear an off-list explanation. > well....ES is under alph rule when it enters into nace. also its entrance is I think you mean "a few coastal towns are under Alph rule when it enters into NACE". > not without troubles. however, those asside i would say that the easiest way > to expalin it is the most direct. you have an alpher ruling class running a > kingdom of mostly oppressed jenites. though much changed with the rise of > Favian Vern, the ES holdings are still rather precarious. having an ally in > nace is quite beneficial in that it provides a lifeline should things heat Beneficial for whom? > well...in this sense spoiller possibilities is highly possible if too much is See above. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:42:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> though nace has no authority over Och. and the PIs that is not to say that either could not come into nace's fold in the coming future. afterall Thy has its hands full militarily and really could not do too much to halt any nace expansion there. << Well, now one sees the assumptions that had to be struggled against exposed. After all, one would think that as a new and supposedly contentious "country" (or, rather, again supposedly, loose and argumentative Confederation), NACE would have its hands full, too, militarily and otherwise (rebuilding and re-orienting their economies after losing their heart and core, "pacifying" Esterhold, wars in Norwold, disagreements over what policy if any should be followed, strange groups of men appearing out of the blue requiring attentions to be diverted, etc) that NACE wouldn't be in a position to initiate expansion of that sort in the first place. But, as you now see, the assumptions of some were and are very different - and there's a disconect between how NACE is portrayed in some cases (I.E. it's no big deal to join NACE because it's not that strong a union and not much is expected of you anyhow, plus it's very internally divided) vs. other cases (I.E. NACE is a powerful unity able to initiate the wide-ranging power-projection capabilities of a full-fledged Mystaran Superpower, and others really cannot do much to halt them, thus able to bring places "into their fold" without having to fear effective opposition.) Solmyr Wrote: > > Alphatian for 1000 years, so why suddenly change it now? Accept it, NACE > has no influence southwest of Aegos, except one scripted to it. > See, that's the thing that should be kept in mind - all rationales, given by me or anyone, are based upon what people script because they want to script things that way. There's nothing *wrong* with that, per se - that's just how things are; "wrong" comes if things are incongruous or if there's a double-standard in play. But we thus we end up back at your (Solmyr's) original question - as yet unanswered. . . ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:18:07 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Master's Pawn wrote: > >That aside, did he not perform on Broadway in the musical "Merlin?" Also wrote and produced it, IIRC. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:26:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Thyatian Events Explained] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff Gander wrote: > >Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony >that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... With sharp, pointy teeth! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:36:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Gordon McCormick Subject: Re: Thyatian Events Explained In-Reply-To: <20000516172630.13240.qmail@awcst094.netaddress.usa.net>; from cthulhudrew@USA.NET on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 01:26:30PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 01:26:30PM -0400, Andrew Theisen wrote: > Geoff Gander wrote: > > > >Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony > >that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... > > With sharp, pointy teeth! Yoiks, you just reminded me - I once did up a mini-gaz for the Chicken People of Ploo. Back in 93 I think, dang, I have to go find it now... [ Back at Easter I found an old glantrian story I wrote about that same time - on my trusty Commodore 64 - it's at http://sprucemoose.net/dnd/stories/misc/mirz.html if anyones interested ] gordon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:31:59 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") In-Reply-To: <20000516172630.13240.qmail@awcst094.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:26 05/16/2000 EDT, Andrew wrote: >Geoff Gander wrote: >> >>Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony >>that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... > >With sharp, pointy teeth! Ack! I'm actually working up a whole set of rabbits for an introductory GSoM adventure (the players get in trouble with a professor and have to choose between cleaning the griffon stables or collecting runaway projects created by Tremp's animal modification seminar), including a vorpal bunny (inspired by an early 1980s Monty Python module from a defunct magazine the name of which now escapes me). Basically, the players (presumably choosing not to be knee-deep in griffon poo) have to "just collect some modified rabbits" including a vorpal bunny, blink bunnies, giant rabbits, hasenbocks (a.k.a. jackelopes in the USA) and (summoned from the Quasielemental Plane of Dust by a student flunked for cheating), dust bunnies. (Feel free to groan at all the silliness.) I'll post stats once the critters are in more final versions. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:43:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony > >>that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... > > > >With sharp, pointy teeth! That reminds me - last Sunday I was playing a game (with my wild mage I was referring to earlier) - at one point I was polymorphed into a tarantula with Strength 19 thanks to a magic girdle, victimising some orcs I was trying to sneak past. Monty Python jokes galore. Vicious, that rabbit... :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Darth Darknerd Organization: HotBot Mail (http://mail.hotbot.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's really great (http://dnd.starflung.com). But Let's do something about the buttons. Is there anyway to make them more appealing? Perhaps more like the top logo? HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:06:40 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Wow Great Update on the Site] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: >> "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world = >>he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze > >OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? The long story is that Doug Henning died a few weeks ago, and just the ve= ry evening before, on MTV's Loveline, Adam Carolla happened to mention him, = and no one (not even Dr. Drew) knew who he was. Prophetic, especially since t= hat show must have been taped several weeks (at least) before it aired, and D= oug died the next morning. So I put Doug Henning in the context of the quote about Keyser Soze from = "The Usual Suspects", because the master illusionist seemingly pulled off the greatest trick of his lifetime- making everyone forget about him. (Though= a surprising number of people on this list know who he is... I swear, up un= til I started putting that in my sig line, I never met anyone aside from my fam= ily who knew who he was. Sad, really. He once was a great illusionist second = only to David Copperfield...) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") > Basically, the players (presumably choosing not to be knee-deep in griffon >poo) have to "just collect some modified rabbits" including a vorpal bunny, >blink bunnies, giant rabbits, hasenbocks (a.k.a. jackelopes in the USA) and >(summoned from the Quasielemental Plane of Dust by a student flunked for >cheating), dust bunnies. Back in an old Infocom game called "Beyond Zork" (great game, BTW), there was a monster known as a dust bunny. Its ability was to multiply very quickly (just by being hit) - thereby filling the room being occupied, and choking the inhabitants with dust. Its main weaknesses were static electricity, and lemon-scented sprays. Aside from that, it was a relatively inoffensive critter - only that it blocked rooms due to sheer numbers. Come to think of it, there were other cool monsters in that game - Christmas Tree monsters (who give you doul gifts and sing bad carols), Lucksuckers, and of course the grues. Maybe someday I'll bring some of these into the D&D universe (like I did with the grue)....maybe..... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:01:11 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Shawn's site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have got a very stupid question. A lot of people talk about Shawn's site. Could any provide me with the address. Thanks. (Sorry about this silly question). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:03:34 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Wow Great Update on the Site] In-Reply-To: <20000516190640.16231.qmail@aw163.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:06 05/16/2000 EDT, Andrew Theisen wrote: >Paul George Dooley wrote: >The long story is that Doug Henning died a few weeks ago, and just the very >evening before, on MTV's Loveline, Adam Carolla happened to mention him, and >no one (not even Dr. Drew) knew who he was. Prophetic, especially since that >show must have been taped several weeks (at least) before it aired, and Doug >died the next morning. > >So I put Doug Henning in the context of the quote about Keyser Soze from "The >Usual Suspects", because the master illusionist seemingly pulled off the >greatest trick of his lifetime- making everyone forget about him. (Though a >surprising number of people on this list know who he is... I swear, up until I >started putting that in my sig line, I never met anyone aside from my family >who knew who he was. Sad, really. He once was a great illusionist second only >to David Copperfield...) I think we're all blocking him out due to his hair and fashion sense. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:21:33 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of weird monster types, are any of you familiar with the old GrailQuest gamebook series??? They had quite a lot of uncommon monsters, based in puns and jokes, quite Carroll athmosphere. One of the gamebooks was a parody of AD&D "Tomb of Horrors" module, and far deadlier than the original... Has anybody thought about writing mystara gamebooks online?? I really get lots of nostalghia when remembering those old gamebooks of the 80s... Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:51:13 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Shawn's site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit boooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!! shame on you Max!!!!!!!!!from now on your are no longer Max but "Med". One more question like this and you would be "Min" http://dnd.starflung.com Max Monas a �crit: > I have got a very stupid question. > A lot of people talk about Shawn's site. Could any provide me with the > address. Thanks. > (Sorry about this silly question). > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My first adress (checked daily) is thibsylv@club-internet.fr My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9s?= Piquer Otero's message of "Tue, 16 May 2000 22:21:33 +0200" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero writes: > One of the gamebooks was a parody of AD&D "Tomb of Horrors" module, > and far deadlier than the original... How on Earth could that be possible? -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 178 days, 18 hours, 41 minutes, 47 seconds till we run away. A kid'll eat the middle of an Oreo, eventually. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:33:02 +1000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:19 16/05/00 -0700, you wrote: > It's really great (http://dnd.starflung.com). But Let's do something about the buttons. Is there anyway to make them more appealing? Perhaps more like the top logo? I can look into it, sure. shawn stanley http://dnd.starflung.com what have you done for me lately ... more to the point what have i done for me - mightyfew, "i can't wait" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:15:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Come to think of it, some John William's music (Star Wars, Superman, Indiana Jones, etc.) might also be good for heroic fantasy...<< it's especially good for star wars, indiana jones rpg's. if you play those. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:56:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Hollow World is a place for civilizations that are on > the verge of being eliminated completely. The Elves aren't > going to be eliminated. There are enough Elven > civilizations, even in the Known World, to prevent Illsundal > from even worrying. > so how do you explain the antalians then. there are still several antalian nations in the known world. i.e. the northern reaches for three. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:27:32 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A.M.Merrifield" Subject: OT: Doug Henning (Was Re: Wow Great Update on the Site) Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 On Tue, 16 May 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > > At 15:29 5/16/00 +0100, Paul George Dooley wrote: > >> >OT I know, but just who the **** is Doug Henning in this context? > >> > >> A magician famous in the 1970s. > >> > >Apparently not quite so famous as first thought! Was he perchance an > >American? > > We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. You can't claim him anyway... I'm afraid we Canadians get that oh-so-dubious honour ("Born in Winnipeg, Canada" according to the Press Release about his death [Feb 7, 2000] at http://www.doughenning.com/main.htm). He even ran for Federal Office as a Member of Parliament once, in the late eighties or early nineties. He was a major member of this weird political party called "The New Age Party", or something similar. Their platform included hiring a hundred "Yogic Fliers" to "encircle the parliament buildings" in order to protect it and the people inside it from negative karmic energy ... or something like that. And they were dead serious too -- it wasn't intended as a joke in any way (Doug Henning was big on transcendental mediation later in his life). Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com _______________________________________________________________________ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go _______________________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:27:49 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit well, my favorites for rpg session athmosphere are movie soundtracks, "Excalibur" soundtrack is great, a mix of carl orff and wagner, also Conan soundtracks somebody pointed out, "Last of Mohicans", and most Michael Nyman soundtracks. Also, ancient middle ages and renaissance music is great. Those 16th century dances, with flutes and fiddles do the trick for city scenes, and poliphonic music, like motets, as well as gregorian, can be great for your favorite "spooky" scenes, and there are some cds of incidental fanfares of horns and drums for baroque courts, i've used them for battle scenes, they worked well. Andr�s ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Wow Great Update on the Site] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Theisen > So I put Doug Henning in the context of the quote about Keyser Soze from "The > Usual Suspects", because the master illusionist seemingly pulled off the > greatest trick of his lifetime- making everyone forget about him. (Though a > surprising number of people on this list know who he is... I swear, up until I > started putting that in my sig line, I never met anyone aside from my family > who knew who he was. Sad, really. He once was a great illusionist second only > to David Copperfield I looked up the name "Keyser Soze" a while back 'cause I was curious about your sig. I never saw the movie, but I was curious because the quote itself is an obvious play on an old saying, "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he didn't exist." That's a paraphrase, but its close enough to the quote you were using. I THINK it comes from this century(20th) or the last (19th) but it may have been a little farther back. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:23:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: jdaly Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And anything by Rush! Especially 2112, Rivendell, and an assorted few "Prince By-Tor and the Snowdog" tunes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroletti To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:53 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles > A list of other rock pieces: > > Emerson, Lake and Palmer: > ELP; Tarkus > > Jethro Tull: > Thick as a Brick; Broadsword and the Beast; Songs from the Wood > > King Crimson: > Lizard, In the court of the Crimson King > > Blind Guardian: > Nightfall in Middle Earth; Imaginations from the other side; Tokyo Tales > > Rhapsody: > Legendary Tales, Symohony of Enchanted Lands > > Yes: > Fragile, Close to the Edge, Relayer > > Plus many more metal or progressive rock bands... > Feel free to ask me more (personally too) > on the albums. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:36:37 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Wow Great Update on the Site]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable jdaly wrote: > >I looked up the name "Keyser Soze" a while back 'cause I was curious >ab= out your sig. I never saw the movie, but I was curious because the >quote it= self is an obvious play on an old saying, "The greatest trick the >Devil ever pulled was to convince people he didn't exist." Yeah- that's the one they use in the movie. Without giving anything away,= it is used in conjunction with Keyser Soze, a character in the movie. You really should see it- it's a pretty darned good flick. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:38:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Shawn's site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 May 2000 22:01:11 Max Monas wrote: >I have got a very stupid question. >A lot of people talk about Shawn's site. Could any provide me with the >address. Thanks. >(Sorry about this silly question). > Oh by the mightiest mages of Alphatia... Did we forget to give you the URL? Shame on us all! :) Its: dnd.starflung.com And BTW, Shawn puts all the interesting, creative stuff from the MML on his site, so you can already find some of your own stuff there! I checked... - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:44:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Thyatian Events Explained] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 May 2000 13:26:30 Andrew Theisen wrote: >Geoff Gander wrote: >> >>Of course, he could be talking about that little-known Alphatian colony >>that's inhabited by rabid, egg-laying bunnies... > >With sharp, pointy teeth! > LOL! You have correctly identified how vile and deceptive we Alphatians truly are - there goes our propaganda down the drain again. Hmmm, we must do something about this... Do you hear me, Tim! :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:44:54 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-16 9:28:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << When the Immortals rebuilt Alphatia for the hollow world why was it left with it's outer world E/W orientation? How are they supposed to police the area when they can't even find their way around? >> Reversing east and west in the minds of the Alphatians would be simple compared to giving former sailors and fisherman false memories of always having lived at the edge of a bottomless cliff. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:44:55 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-16 11:21:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: << I thought that the Brute-Men were extinct in the OW...even if their descendants live on, they're not Brute-Men, but an evolved race. >> A few modules set in the outer world do have Neanderthals in them.... << I'll agree with you that the Antalians seem close to the Northern Reaches and Oceansend cultures. They seem more like a case where Odin and Thor wanted a piece of the action in the HW. You calling the Krugel a "human culture", my friend? And BTW the Krugel were the only mounted orcs in Mystara, which is probably part of what Karaash sought to preserve.>> Oops! That is a correction I failed to make. I originally planned to list only human cultures and then found some non-human cultures that I wanted to add to the list -- but I forgot to delete the word "human" preceding that list. << As for most of the others - their descendants might live on in the OW, but either they've evolved or they've devolved (is that a word in English; I hope you know what I mean). F.ex. the Azcans have little in common with the Atruaghins AFAIK. In most of these cases the cultures were preserved at the peak of their civilization; before they began their decline. So you've got an Azcan Empire, Milenian do., etc. >> The Azcans seem to have much in common with the Tiger Clan -- and the Oltecs seem to have much in common with the other Atruaghin Clans. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:44:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: "V Babes" (was Slaving: Where to Get Them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-16 9:58:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << What with Vanya having a 33 Cha, and Valerias an 80 Cha. I think the "Babe Alert" has already sounded on them! ;-P >> The only problem is that some women (especially warrior women) consider "babe" a demeaning term -- just the sort of word that a MCP like Rathanos might use to refer to them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:48:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 May 2000 15:06:41 Geoff Gander wrote: >> Basically, the players (presumably choosing not to be knee-deep in griffon >>poo) have to "just collect some modified rabbits" including a vorpal bunny, >>blink bunnies, giant rabbits, hasenbocks (a.k.a. jackelopes in the USA) and >>(summoned from the Quasielemental Plane of Dust by a student flunked for >>cheating), dust bunnies. > >Back in an old Infocom game called "Beyond Zork" (great game, BTW), there >was a monster known as a dust bunny. Its ability was to multiply very >quickly (just by being hit) - thereby filling the room being occupied, and >choking the inhabitants with dust. Its main weaknesses were static >electricity, and lemon-scented sprays. Aside from that, it was a >relatively inoffensive critter - only that it blocked rooms due to sheer >numbers. > AARRGH! It would seem that no place is safe from Tribbles and their off-spring... Curses! :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:01:42 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? In-Reply-To: <000701bfbf3a$7354aa00$8a8975c2@pauldool> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:26 PM 5/16/00 +0100, Paul George Dooley wrote: > > When the Immortals rebuilt Alphatia for the hollow world why was it >left with it's outer world E/W orientation? How are they supposed to police >the area when they can't even find their way around? Maybe I'm way off here, but would it matter much, seeing as they are a floating continent? Since they aren't directly tied to the world below, I don't see where it much makes a difference which direction is which on Alphatia. But then, I'm no geographer, either, so I could be wrong... ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:19:39 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: pds3 Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > When the Immortals rebuilt Alphatia for the hollow world why was it > >left with it's outer world E/W orientation? How are they supposed to police > >the area when they can't even find their way around? > Maybe I'm way off here, but would it matter much, seeing as they are a > floating continent? Since they aren't directly tied to the world below, I > don't see where it much makes a difference which direction is which on > Alphatia. But then, I'm no geographer, either, so I could be wrong... Well, the problem is that, in order to make it keep the same east-west orientation, the immortals would ahve to make a complete mirror image Alphatia and then mess with everyone's minds to remember it that way. Or else put Frisland and Ambur at the Southern tips and Arogansa along the northern coast. IMO, and based on the map in PWA1 at least (and I think PWAIII had one as well), they didn't make a mirror image of Alphatia, so either they had to reverse north and south or the east and west in the HW don't correspond with the OW but rather in either, when you face north, east is right and west is left. What do people think? In something I read (possibly Mystara-related, possibly Dragonlance, possibly something entirely different) there was discussion of dwarves and how their maps are made reversed from humans, since their perspective is one of looking up at the world from beneath, thus putting north at the top but west to the right and east to the left. It's all so confusing... Patrick ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:53:43 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-16 10:20:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pds3@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: << Or else put Frisland and Ambur at the Southern tips and Arogansa along the northern coast. IMO, and based on the map in PWA1 at least (and I think PWAIII had one as well), they didn't make a mirror image of Alphatia, so either they had to reverse north and south or the east and west in the HW don't correspond with the OW but rather in either, when you face north, east is right and west is left. What do people think? >> The map in PWA1 has an arrow showing north, but east and west are not labeled. My guess is that the Alphatians got the same east-west reversal planted in their heads that all other transferees to the Hollow World got. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 04:31:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Warfare in the shadow of Alphatia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have any ideas been raised about the effects of the Alphatian shadowfall upon the Schattenalfen-Azcan conflict? Or that of any of those races hostile to their neighbours, who have infravision? Then again there's the new importance in the creation of lightsources for external usage. The very presence of Alphatia is probably pushing the SoP somewhat, due to the alterations in culture needed to cope with the shadowfall. Anyone already worked this one out and posted it somewhere? If so please post the addy! Hamlet I, v, 166. Words to live by? Paul ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 04:34:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reversing east and west in the minds of the Alphatians would be simple > compared to giving former sailors and fisherman false memories of always > having lived at the edge of a bottomless cliff. > How come there are still references to the countries locations within the continent with the old, outer world, E/W notation then? > Maybe I'm way off here, but would it matter much, seeing as they are a > floating continent? Since they aren't directly tied to the world below, I > don't see where it much makes a difference which direction is which on > Alphatia. But then, I'm no geographer, either, so I could be wrong... > ----- Oh my! Has Alphatian Neathrum (or whatever the "citizens" currently call it) seceded? Otherwise you've got different parts of the empire using different map directions. Let alone trying to constantly remember that any other countries you negotiate with are in the wrong place. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:34:53 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-16 11:46:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << > Reversing east and west in the minds of the Alphatians would be simple > compared to giving former sailors and fisherman false memories of always > having lived at the edge of a bottomless cliff. > How come there are still references to the countries locations within the continent with the old, outer world, E/W notation then? >> Okay, then the Immortals screwed up and any low level Alphatians who descend to the surface will be utterly confused by any east-west directions they receive from the natives. Then again, maybe not -- if they are clever enough to translate the Neathar word for "east" as the Alphatian word for "west" and vice versa, then they will still have their directions straight. The inhabitants of Alphatian Neatharum would continue to use whatever system they were using before, as they reached the Hollow World via the "Shaft" rather than via Immortal intervention -- and if the Immortals failed to reverse the direction sense of the inhabitants of FCA, then the inhabitants of FCA and Alphatian Neatharum will share a common vocabulary for directions. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: OT: Doug Henning (Was Re: Wow Great Update on the Site) Jenni wrote: > He even ran for Federal Office as a Member of Parliament once, in the late eighties or early nineties. He was a major member of this weird political party called "The New Age Party", or something similar. The Natural Law Party. A couple of their prospective MPs came to my campus around the '93 election to gain support. What was interesting about the whole thing was that they were able to field so many candidates (somewhere around 250 or so nationally - some in every province IIRC). >Their platform included hiring a hundred "Yogic Fliers" to "encircle the parliament buildings" in order to protect it and the people inside it from negative karmic energy ... or something like that. I remember that...heh heh... ;-) Aahhhhh, Dougie, we hardly knew ye... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:24:37 CEST Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Max Monas Subject: Re: Shawn's site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >boooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!! >shame on you Max!!!!!!!!!from now on your are no longer Max but "Med". >One more question like this and you would be "Min" >http://dnd.starflung.com Eeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhh, ....................sorry!!! But in fact I knew this, ............. honestly ............... I mean I have visited this site before and it is a great site (I hope you believe me now). Well, anyway, thanks for clearing up that starflung.dnd is Shawn's site (of course, I knew this, I don't know what I must have been thinking). Thanks for the reply. Regards, Max ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:14:51 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia?] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: > >Oh my! Has Alphatian Neathrum (or whatever the "citizens" currently call= >it) seceded? Otherwise you've got different parts of the empire using >differ= ent map directions. Let alone trying to constantly remember that >any other countries you negotiate with are in the wrong place. True, but this really only impacts the leaders of the country, doesn't it= ? I mean, Joe (ex) Fisherman in Arogansa really probably doesn't much care ab= out the politics of distant Ambur, much less its directions ("Somewhere in th= e north, innit?") so why should he care about the directions of distant par= ts of the empire that lay on the ground? Just for simplicity's sake, I'd say that directions remained the same on = the Floating continent, and the A-N's go by the normal "land" directions. Or = you could say that the FCA moves in a counterclockwise rotations, and that wo= uld solve the problem, wouldn't it? (I really don't know, again, I'm not a geographer, so if someone could point out the problem that I might be mis= sing- and possibly explain it like I'm a two year old ;) - then I might be able= to make a more cogent argument... or not. ) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:49:24 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Spell of Preservation discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I accidentally deleted the email from (Rob, maybe?) which compared the So= P to a complex algorithm. I really enjoyed that analogy, and hadn't thought of= it in those terms before. That was really cool, and unfortunately I think I = had some additional comments to make, but (like I said) I accidentally delete= d it... :( While we're on the topic, though, someone else (David, I think) mentioned= the Shiye as being a part of the Alphatian culture (on a different topic, rel= ating to the hypothesis of first generation transplants having to ie before the= SoP kicks in). My question is: Are they really part of the Alphatian Culture? This goes = back to the culture question, which is what we've all been discussing in vario= us ways, about the SoP. How would the SoP know to define a culture? The Milenians seem to be a cu= lture of their own, its true; distinct, say, from the Nithians, to the west (ea= st? ;) But how would such definitions apply to a multicultural society like Alph= atia? The kingdom of Shiye-Lawr and its inhabitants, though a part of the Empir= e, seem to me to have a very distinct culture from, say, the Frislanders? An= d the Frislanders would seem to have a culture somewhat distinct from the Foresthomers, or the Arogansans? So how would the SoP work in regards to = the cultures of Alphatia? Can we really determine that there is one "uber" cu= lture of the Empire, or is it an admixture of many different cultures? I think it's probably somewhere in between, myself. Some of the southern kingdoms seem to be more homogeneous than do the northern kingdoms (logic= al, as there is a vast geographic divide between them, in the forests of the interior). The southern regions seem to me to have an almost "American" f= eel (in that they gradually seem to erode all distinct ethnic and regional elements for a more universal standard), while the northern kingdoms are = more slow to come around, and maintain more of their original cultural and eth= nic traits. So what does this mean? If the SoP can somehow recognize that part of the= "Uber-Alphatian" culture is to encompass and eventually incorporate other= cultures into its homogeneous mix, then Alphatia could theoretically domi= nate the entire Hollow World eventually. But this is obviously not what the Immortals would like to see happen, so one would think that they wouldn't= have allowed for such an eventuality. Of course, the Immortals are far from infallible or omniscient, so they may not have foreseen the difficulty (especially with the time constraints they were under), so... Anyway, just theorizing on how the SoP might possibly apply to Alphatia. = Any thoughts? ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:54:11 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: 1st Look at 3E Immortals/Gods? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone checked out either Dragon #272 or Eric Noah's Third Edition Site (http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3E)? They've posted stats of Bahamut and Tiamat under 3E. Wow. This looks like= our first sample of what Immortal level characters might look like under 3e r= ules, and they're pretty bad. Looks like the new rules will be able to handle t= he Immortals rules as well as I had a feeling they might. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:29:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: erewan laubgaenger Subject: Re: creatures classes (was Becoming a Lich) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > i explane that in they way - with that some of you will disagree - > > druids are able to shapeshift. > > i allow that druids can shift with the manmal part to become a manmal. > > in most systems that manmal skill is used to become a fox, bear..... > > i allow in addition to become a human. > > because in a biological way humans are still manmals. > > i also allow to become a griffon. > > important notes!!!: the player should ask me if he want to become > something > > like a griffin. i had only explaned how i see that skill. > > IMC the one druid only use the manmal skill to become an ork and an elf. > > he has to that time not the idea to shift to a griffon. > > but if he get it i would allow it. > > I don't quite understand where your going with that. > BTW a griffon is not a mammal as it lays eggs. And I don;t think it is a > mammal like a platipus. a griffon is for me first an animal and second a birdlike creature. so a Druid can shift to griffon with his shift abillities birdform. what is a Platipus? IBON ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:52:20 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Shawn's site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok your are "Max " again... but beware, i am watching..... Max Monas a �crit: > >boooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!! > >shame on you Max!!!!!!!!!from now on your are no longer Max but "Med". > >One more question like this and you would be "Min" > >http://dnd.starflung.com > > Eeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhh, ....................sorry!!! > > But in fact I knew this, ............. honestly ............... I mean I > have visited this site before and it is a great site (I hope you believe me > now). Well, anyway, thanks for clearing up that starflung.dnd is Shawn's > site (of course, I knew this, I don't know what I must have been thinking). > > Thanks for the reply. > Regards, > > Max > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My first adress (checked daily) is thibsylv@club-internet.fr My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:23:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. > > > Oh, you mean like Scousers loathe Cilla! > they're not the only ones. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:30:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We'd REALLY prefer not to claim him, thanks. > > That aside, did he not perform on Broadway in the musical "Merlin?" > thats probably why they prefer not to claim him, i mean come on what self respecting mage does musicals. mortus ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:37:06 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 2000-05-15 11:41:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: >> I don't agree with this. Let's say that the immortals scoop up a culture and place them in the HW (the Nithians for example). >> Your example falls apart right there. The delay that I suggested would apply only to people who "find their own way to the Hollow World" -- those who are placed there by an Immortal with the intent of "saving" them would fall under the Spell of Preservation immediately. << I can't find any reference that states that the SoP makes a distinction between cultures placed in the HW, and cultures that find their way into the HW. Where are you getting that from? >>But you are right that the Spell of Preservation should affect cultures to a greater extent than individuals. For those cultures who reached the Hollow World on foot rather than being carried there by the Immortals, I would suggest that they become full "natives" as soon as the last member of their culture in the Hollow World who was born in the outer world dies. << The SoP shouldn't affect individuals at all...only cultures. Individuals who belong to a HW culture will feel its effects. That's why adventurers who enter the HW are not affected by it. Now if a large enough group of adventurers entered, then something interesting might happen. >>For a culture relocated to the Hollow World by the Immortals, I would suggest that the main effect of having survivors from the outer world is that they would still have a few years left to develop before the stasis of "cultural bias" sets in. Once the last survivor from the outer world dies, they are limited to whatever armor and weapons they developed up until that point, and they receive their special compensation (if any) at that time. << Once again I can't find anything to support this in the HW material. Where do you draw this inference from? >>Since I was unaware of the distinction later suggested about whether a group of people form a viable culture, then I will suggest that we are talking about a large household -- not just the immediate family but cousins, servants, and assorted hangers-on. Let us assume that there are enough of them to form a viable culture. I would suggest that the time factor should apply to them as well as to the Heldannic Knights because the Spell of Preservation has to work on attitudes -- and attitudes will not change unless enough time has elapsed that nobody in that culture has a living memory of the outside world (as would be the case with those who reach the Hollow World under their own power) or the Immortal(s) who transfer them there monkey with their heads (as would be the case with most Immortal relocations). Once a "critical mass" of the culture has the right attitudes, the Spell of Preservation could kick in. What is that critical mass? The percentage of the Alphatian population that is below 9th level, of course. << I don't think that the SoP has to wait for a culture to get the "right" attitudes, rather the SoP gives cultures the right attutudes. It's not a passive spell. The SoP is a very active, and agressive spell, and I don't think it would wait for the culture in question to prepare itself for HW stasis. One of the SoP's main goals (the other being stasis of the burrowers) is to preserve cultures. Why would it wait for some other force to act (as you mention time) before it starts to act itself? I don't think it would. >> << HKs and Alphers are a whole new ballgame however. They both know (and have contact with) the outer world. The Alpher problem might be solved once the current generation is replaced...but even that might take a while for long lived mages. >> Actually, since the Alphatians include the Shiye-Lawr elves, we are talking about a period of nearly a thousand years for the current generation to be replaced even if no human Alphatians use life-extending magic (which of course quite a few will do). << IIRC several HW cultures retain their memories about the OW. The point I was trying to make about the Alphers and the HKs is that they both still have contact with the OW. Once the current Alpher generation is replaced (all of those people above 9th level) then Alphatia won't have any more memories of the OW [unless before that time, the OW is revealed to the general populace]. The HKs would never face this fate. They won't forget about the outer world, no matter how much time passes. And if they can retain a way to continue to cross the poles (ie with their skyships) then contact with the OW will never be broken. None of this however, has any bearing on whether or not these people will be affected by the SoP. Cultures don't need to forget about the outer world (the Azcans haven't), nor do they need to break off contact with the OW (the Alphers haven't). ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:15:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Dylan Rickards Subject: Maps of The Savage Baronies In-Reply-To: <20000517213706.1881.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am about to start a new Mystara Campaign (after not playing mystara in a decade) and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what supplements, or if there are any other places where I could find a map of the savage baronies. I downloaded the Savage Coast supplement and I did not find the maps very helpful. Thanks in Advance Dylan Rickards ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:24:19 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>I accidentally deleted the email from (Rob, maybe?) which compared the SoP to a complex algorithm. I really enjoyed that analogy, and hadn't thought of it in those terms before. That was really cool, and unfortunately I think I had some additional comments to make, but (like I said) I accidentally deleted it... :( << I wrote that actually. I sent you a copy, and would love to hear your take on it. >>While we're on the topic, though, someone else (David, I think) mentioned the Shiye as being a part of the Alphatian culture (on a different topic, relating to the hypothesis of first generation transplants having to ie before the SoP kicks in). My question is: Are they really part of the Alphatian Culture? This goes back to the culture question, which is what we've all been discussing in various ways, about the SoP. How would the SoP know to define a culture? The Milenians seem to be a culture of their own, its true; distinct, say, from the Nithians, to the west (east? ;) << This is a good question. My take is that the SoP functions as an algorithm. A simple algorithm, although rather memory intensive. Every individual's cultural traits would be catalogued and stored int the SoP's "memory". The SoP would then run a clustering algorithm which would measure the distance between each individual's cultural traits. The end result being several clusters of people with similar cultural tarits/beliefs. Each cluster of similar individuals (if large enough) would be considered a culture, and the SoP would act accordingly to preserve those cultures. Those clusters which were too small, or those individuals not included in any particular cluster, would not be affected by the SoP. Hmm...perhaps not so simple after all, but I hope you get the idea. The point of contention between Kaviyd and myself has to do with imposing time limits upon cultures that "find" the HW, and not imposing time limits on those cultures that the immortals "place" in the HW. I'm sure he would be able to better describe his theory. I'll give you a couple of points on why I don't favor this idea. 1) Time limits on wandering cultures as opposed to no time limits on placed cultures implies that the Immortals must somehow "update" the SoP everytime they place a new culture in the HW. 2) If Immortals do not "update" the SoP, then the inference is that the SoP must know something about the Outer World as well as the HW. It must know when an Immortal scoops up a culture, and when a culture simply wanders into the HW. IMO there is no way for it to do this (the World-Shield blocks all attempts of divinatory/scrying magic...even immortal magic - else Ka would have been able to find the HW with his magic, as opposed to stumbling upon it through some crater). >>But how would such definitions apply to a multicultural society like Alphatia? The kingdom of Shiye-Lawr and its inhabitants, though a part of the Empire, seem to me to have a very distinct culture from, say, the Frislanders? And the Frislanders would seem to have a culture somewhat distinct from the Foresthomers, or the Arogansans? So how would the SoP work in regards to the cultures of Alphatia? Can we really determine that there is one "uber" culture of the Empire, or is it an admixture of many different cultures? << I was re-reading the HW stuff early this morning, and I found something which might apply here (or at least which will muddy the waters somewhat). The SoP preserves cultures, however it does not protect a kingdom from conquest...but it will protect conquered kingdoms from assimilation. So let's say that the Alphers go hog wild and decide to conquer Nithia. The SoP will actually allow them to do so. Now we have the Kingdom of Nithia as a part of the greater Alpher Empire. The Nithians (as a people) will not change culturally. They may now be a part of a greater empire, but they will still be Nithians, not Alphatians. In fact the only type of wars that the SoP prevents (from being successful), are genocidal wars. All other types of wars are fair game, although conquered people will not be assimilated into the conquering culture. It does appear however, that the SoP is a little more complex than this. Take the Tanagoro Nithians in the south of Nithia. These people are tanagoro who have been conquered and assimilated by the Nithians. How could this happen? Because the Nithians did not assimilate all Tanagoro, and therefore the SoP had no reason to act. Another interesting point that the HW DMs guide makes is that the SoP will not prevent new cultures from forming inside of the HW. It was unclear as to whether or not those cultures would then be protected by the SoP. My personal take is that they would be, although I can't find any definitive proof for this (and I can't find any proof to the contrary either). >>I think it's probably somewhere in between, myself. Some of the southern kingdoms seem to be more homogeneous than do the northern kingdoms (logical, as there is a vast geographic divide between them, in the forests of the interior). The southern regions seem to me to have an almost "American" feel (in that they gradually seem to erode all distinct ethnic and regional elements for a more universal standard), while the northern kingdoms are more slow to come around, and maintain more of their original cultural and ethnic traits. So what does this mean? If the SoP can somehow recognize that part of the "Uber-Alphatian" culture is to encompass and eventually incorporate other cultures into its homogeneous mix, then Alphatia could theoretically dominate the entire Hollow World eventually. But this is obviously not what the Immortals would like to see happen, so one would think that they wouldn't have allowed for such an eventuality. Of course, the Immortals are far from infallible or omniscient, so they may not have foreseen the difficulty (especially with the time constraints they were under), so... << I agree...it's not what the immortals would want (although James might say otherwise ;-)), but the SoP does allow for it to happen. What could not happen is Alphatia imposing Imperial law upon all of its newly aquired HW kingdoms. They may be forced to pay tribute. They may be forced to send troops to Alphatian war efforts. They may be forced to neal befor the Alphatian Emperor. What they would not be forced to do is mandate that only spellcasters could be aristocrats. They could not be forced to accept slavery (if their pre-conquest culture did not have that practice). They probably couldn't learn Alpher magics. In effect, they could not be made "Alphatian". I suppose that portions of other cultures could be assimilated (like the Tanagoro/Nithian example I gave befor) as long as somewhere in the HW, the original culture existed. The other portion of your question which I find leads to some interesting implications is "What happens to Ubber-Alphatia?" By that I take it that you refer to the Alpher Empire as a whole, as a composition of several lesser kingdoms. There are a couple of possibilities. 1) The SoP does not act upon Imperial entities. In this case the SoP would act to preserve each Alpher culture (or sub-culture) independantly. This could lead (in the extreme) to the eventual break up of the Alphatian empire, just as long as the Alpher cultures in the HW remained intact. 2) The SoP does act upon Imperial entities, at least to some extent. In this case the SoP would have to recognize the interaction of all Alphatian cultures, to form a sort of super-culture. This in turn leads to two more possibilities: 2a) The SoP preserves both the Alphatian sub-cultures, and the Alphatian "Ubber-culture". This means Alphatia as-is, for the rest of time. 2b) The SoP preserves the "imperial" culture, but is more lax with the individual sub-cultures of Alphatia. This would mean that individual Alphatian kingdoms could come and go, just as long as Imperial Alphatia still existed. 3) Since the SoP does not prevent the creation of new cultures within the HW, it is possible that several new Alpher kingdoms/cultures might pop up, and be absorbed into the Empire. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:15:40 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion John Calvin wrote: >2) The SoP does act upon Imperial entities, at least to some extent. In this case the SoP would have to recognize the interaction of all Alphatian cultures, to form a sort of super-culture. This in turn leads to two more possibilities: This is sort of how I handled it when I wrote my Selhomarr Gazetteer. I decided that, even though the nation was an empire containing two ethnic groups and numerous regional differences, there was nothing, SoP-wise, to prevent the empire from becoming more decentralised over time (ie: the Ilarnnian minority might some day gain even more autonomy, or the regional princes might overpower the emperor and make him a puppet - or, the empire could become more centralised, with regional differences squelched to an extent). The key is that the entire culture has been preserved with its own socio-cultural continuum, along which it can move as time and circumstances (and individuals) dictate - but the key elements of its culture (ie: cultural biases, political structure, laws, etc.) remain unchanged, as with any other culture. This leads me to agree with: >2b) The SoP preserves the "imperial" culture, but is more lax with the >individual sub-cultures of Alphatia. This would mean that individual >Alphatian kingdoms could come and go, just as long as Imperial Alphatia >still existed. In the Alphatian case, IMO, each constituent kingdom of the empire has its own quirks which contribute to the composite Alphatian identity, but as long as these attributes as a whole remain in the society, individual kingdoms could (again, IMO) rise and fall. For example, the Stonewallian tolerance for fighters and the like is an attribute that is part of at least a small segment of the Alphatian culture overall. As long as even a fraction of that society holds those beliefs, there is nothing preventing Stonewall from disappearing over the next few centuries. Another example to show that HW cultures need not be boring monoliths: Check out the Milenia gaz. IIRC, there is some information about Pelai's bid for seccession (as well as a number of other cities, who wanted a far more decentralised form of government, akin to a confederacy), which was put down by military crackdown. Even now, Pelai simmers (according to the gaz), some of its rulers waiting for the chance to make a bid for independence again. Why bring this up? Because it shows that the current imperial political system is not the only one which was brought to the HW. IIRC, it is mentioned that some rebels alluded to past tales (ie: from the surface world, in the early days of the empire) of greater democracy and local government. Even though that was not, and is not, the political system that exists in the Milenian Empire today, it remains part of the Milenian culture, which indicates that there is no reason why the empire might not collapse sometime in the future, and be replaced by a more chaotic, democratic collection of independent city-states. Alternatively, the empire could become a real despotism, ruled by fear. Change *is* possible within a HW culture, so long as that chance either has precedent in that culture's past, or would reasonably fall within that culture's own continuum of possible socio-political relationships. Thus, I conclude that the internal borders of Alphatia can, and probably will, change - possibly to the extent that one or more kingdoms could disappear, or new ones be formed - so long as the *overarching* Alphatian culture does not deviate from its core tenets, such as a political system centred on a magocracy, a highly stratified society, etc. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:37:12 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Maps of The Savage Baronies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:15 PM 5/17/00 -0400, Dylan Rickards wrote: > > I am about to start a new Mystara Campaign (after not playing mystara in >a decade) and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what supplements, or >if there are any other places where I could find a map of the savage >baronies. I downloaded the Savage Coast supplement and I did not find the >maps very helpful. Ironwolf's "Tales of the Known World" page has the Savage Baronies maps, as does (IIRC) Thibault Sarlat's map page. Don't know the urls offhand for either, but they can be accessed via the links page at http://dnd.starflung.com ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:53:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Wow Great Update on the Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Oh, you mean like Scousers loathe Cilla! > > > they're not the only ones. > > mortus. > Sorry, you just didn't get the sheer excruciating agony of the soul that even writing that name causes me, being Scouse meself. The media created plastic monstrosity, with her fake accent and terrible taste in clothing and makeup, has done more harm to the soul of my city than Thatcher ever did! Sorry this is OT to most ,but it had to be said. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:16:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True, but this really only impacts the leaders of the country, doesn't it? I mean, Joe (ex) Fisherman in Arogansa really probably doesn't much care about the politics of distant Ambur, much less its directions ("Somewhere in the north, innit?") so why should he care about the directions of distant parts of the empire that lay on the ground? However Joe Soldier is going to be well screwed by marching in the wrong direction to his supply camp during ground maneuvers away from the floating continent itself Just for simplicity's sake, I'd say that directions remained the same on the Floating continent, and the A-N's go by the normal "land" directions. Unfortunately that's not simple at all because of the elevated (sic) position Alphatia has within the Hollow World. Or you could say that the FCA moves in a counterclockwise rotations, and that would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Not really, for depending upon your point of reference, it already is travelling in that direction. The basic problem is if you are on the outer world facing North and stick out your right arm that's East, in the Hollow World that's West. Since, apparently, Alphatia still follows the outer world pattern any directions given for travel in an E/W direction are 180 degrees out. You turn right instead of left and vice versa. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:51:18 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Campaign detail question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An important object is going to come into my PCs' hands in a few sessions, and I need a bit of help making it Mystara-correct. It's a wooden box (sealed with the Nicodemus' locking spell) that I was imagining resembling the delicately inlaid wooden boxes one can get in the Middle East. My first thought would be to make such a box Ylari, but I'm not sure that's appropriate: The character who owns it is Nicodemus Majoh, a Thyatian who moved to Karameikos when Stefan Karameikos took control of the territory. I know that Thyatis has previously controlled Ylaruam, but would that have been within Nicodemus' lifetime? (He was born in the 940s.) I want this to be a momento of his travels. If Thyatis didn't control Ylaruam during Nicodemus' adult life, is there perhaps some Sea of Dread island or other part of the Thyatian Empire that would produce interesting woodwork? Any details on such cultures and their handicrafts? Thanks. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:01:07 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>In the Alphatian case, IMO, each constituent kingdom of the empire has its own quirks which contribute to the composite Alphatian identity, but as long as these attributes as a whole remain in the society, individual kingdoms could (again, IMO) rise and fall. For example, the Stonewallian tolerance for fighters and the like is an attribute that is part of at least a small segment of the Alphatian culture overall. As long as even a fraction of that society holds those beliefs, there is nothing preventing Stonewall from disappearing over the next few centuries. << This is a good point. So let's say that Stonewall the kingdom is no more. Does Stonewall the culture (ie tolerance for fighters) live on, as say a small village somewhere in a secluded mountain valley, or does the Stonewall culture vanish as well (if just for the time being) and remain a 'potential' cultural trait for future generations of Alphatians to 'rediscover'? ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:24:31 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: HKs in the Hollow World (was near humans) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-17 5:37:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << One of the SoP's main goals (the other being stasis of the burrowers) is to preserve cultures. Why would it wait for some other force to act (as you mention time) before it starts to act itself? I don't think it would. >> I was figuring that it might need some sort of signal to tell it to preserve a given culture. The first culture preserved (because it was the only major culture present when the Spell of Preservation was cast) was that of the Brute-Men, so they became protected at that time. The Immortals who cast that spell certainly envisioned that they would be transporting other cultures to the Hollow World in the future and thus such a transportation would be an immediate and obvious signal that the culture so transported is to be protected -- and that would answer the question about whether Alphatia constituted several cultures or a single culture, as the fact that they were all placed in the Hollow World at the same time marked them as being one culture. But the case where representatives of a culture reach the Hollow World under their own power gives no such obvious signal -- in fact, I would suggest that at first the visitors would be regarded as something that the Spell of Preservation is supposed to protect natives against rather than something to be protected and preserved. I suggested time as a factor for making that determination because it is something that clearly distinguishes the Bagni's trolls, the Heldannic Knights, and assorted outer world adventurers (who are not protected by the Spell of Preservation) from the Beastmen, Schanttenalfen, and Icevale Elves (who are). Of course, another possibility is that there is a bit of Immortal magic that an Immortal can cast to "mark" a culture for preservation. In that case, once a group reaches the Hollow World on their own, their patron Immortal might cast that magic to "mark" them as a "transported" culture to be protected. In that case, we would need only come up with reasons why Bagni and Vanya did not so "mark" their followers in the Hollow World. My guess is that Bagni does not know about this bit of magic, while Vanya obviously does but has declined to cast it because she wants her Heldannic Knights to retain the mental flexibility that they would lose under the Spell of Preservation. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:24:33 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-17 7:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << The point of contention between Kaviyd and myself has to do with imposing time limits upon cultures that "find" the HW, and not imposing time limits on those cultures that the immortals "place" in the HW. I'm sure he would be able to better describe his theory. I'll give you a couple of points on why I don't favor this idea. 1) Time limits on wandering cultures as opposed to no time limits on placed cultures implies that the Immortals must somehow "update" the SoP everytime they place a new culture in the HW.>> One suggestion that I just proposed was that the Immortals somehow "marked" the representatives of a culture that they wanted to preserve. In that case, they would not be updating the "algorithm" but the "data" being input to it. At that point the algorithm that you described would "kick in" and analyze that culture to determine what its characteristics and limits are and then take the usual actions to preserve that culture. << 2) If Immortals do not "update" the SoP, then the inference is that the SoP must know something about the Outer World as well as the HW. It must know when an Immortal scoops up a culture, and when a culture simply wanders into the HW. IMO there is no way for it to do this (the World-Shield blocks all attempts of divinatory/scrying magic...even immortal magic - else Ka would have been able to find the HW with his magic, as opposed to stumbling upon it through some crater). >> The real question would be whether the magical transportation of people by the Immortals leaves a magical "residue" at the location of their arrival that might be detectable by the Spell of Preservation. Alternatively, the location of a group's detection by the Spell of Preservation would be a clue as to how they got there -- if they are picked up just within the limits of detectability set by the World Shield, then they arrived on their own, but if they suddenly appear on the surface of the Hollow World, then they were clearly transported. But I must admit that at this time I am prepared to abandon the "time passage" theory in favor of the "marked by the Immortals" theory. Since the Immortals cast the original Spell of Preservation, this theory would suggest that the Spell of Preservation has a fairly simple "I/O routine". At any point an Immortal could give it the "Add new culture" command, to which the Spell of Preservation would reply with a new unique identifier. That Immortal would then apply that identifier to the group that he wishes to protect, whether he is transporting them himself, guiding them through the caverns or polar openings, or has found them already present in the Hollow World with no other "marker". Once the Spell of Preservation detects a sufficiently large number of people with the same marker in a sufficiently small area, it can do its analysis and begin preserving them. Individuals born into that culture would count as part of it until they defy their cultural bias enough to become permanent outsiders, at which point their "marker" would be lost and they could be given the "mark" of a different culture. Incidentally, that does suggest a possible new clerical spell for the Hollow World that would be a variant of the AD&D spell "Ceremony" in its "Dedication" version. By casting this spell on an individual who has no cultural bias (either because he has already lost it by defying it or because he is an adventurer from the outer world who never had one), that person can be turned into a full member of that culture who receives both the benefits and the limitations of the cultural bias for that particular culture. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:34:16 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Which way round is Alphatia?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-17 10:22:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Just for simplicity's sake, I'd say that directions remained the same on the Floating continent, and the A-N's go by the normal "land" directions. Unfortunately that's not simple at all because of the elevated (sic) position Alphatia has within the Hollow World. >> If there was not already a mention of Alphatians looking up at the red sun, I would have suggested as an obvious solution that perhaps the floating continent of Alphatia actually floats upside down. But alas, that option seems to have been precluded. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:38:36 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Atruaghin Plateau -- mini-SoP? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In line with my "marked by the Immortals" theory for identifying cultural groups in the Hollow World, it has occurred to me that maybe the Immortal Atruaghin cast a weakened version of the Spell of Preservation on the outer world when he raised up the Atruaghin Plateau and then "marked" his clans. Since Atruaghin was born in the Hollow World, it would have seemed only natural to him to do this -- and many anomalies about the people of the Clans would thus be explained. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:41:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alan Shutko Subject: Re: Campaign detail question In-Reply-To: Beau Yarbrough's message of "Wed, 17 May 2000 19:51:18 -0700" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Beau Yarbrough writes: > I know that Thyatis has previously controlled Ylaruam, but > would that have been within Nicodemus' lifetime? Not most of Ylaraum, but they still have the Duchy of Tel Akbir, which is predominately Alasiyan, so it could easily have come from there. -- Alan Shutko - In a variety of flavors! 177 days, 11 hours, 55 minutes, 40 seconds till we run away. If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:45:09 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Campaign detail question In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:41 5/17/00 -0400, Alan wrote: >Beau Yarbrough writes: > >> I know that Thyatis has previously controlled Ylaruam, but >> would that have been within Nicodemus' lifetime? > >Not most of Ylaraum, but they still have the Duchy of Tel Akbir, which >is predominately Alasiyan, so it could easily have come from there. Where's that? One of its islands? (Just wondering how Nicodemus got there and back.) BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:19:21 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Key to the Hollow World (a short story to illustrate a theory) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Immortal Britomart was very nervous at the summons she received to appear before the "Inner Council" as they called themselves. Her fellow Initiates were as clueless as she was about what they wanted, while more senior Immortals chuckled and assured her that this summons was a good thing that would give her some nice perks, which they said they could not give her the details of. Gathering her courage, she went to the location where she had been summoned to. Awaiting her were five Hierarchs, whom she recognized as Ka, Ordana, Ixion, Hel, and Korotiku. Korotiku greeted her, saying "Welcome, Britomart! Your patron Diulanna has said nothing but good things about you, and so we are now ready to extend to you the greatest privilege due to a mature Immortal! Let us depart from Pandius...." Britomart accompanied the Hierarchs as they assumed Incorporeal form and moved to the northern polar opening of Mystara. "Behold the Hollow World!" proclaimed Ka. "Here is where we preserve creatures, peoples, and cultures that are in danger of extinction. Since you have proven yourself to your sponsor, we are now ready to give you the Key to this Hollow World. Use it wisely, and it will be renewed -- but use it foolishly, and it will not ever be granted to you again." The five Hierarchs then conducted a ceremony that was clearly quite familiar to them. At the completion of the ceremony, Britomart heard a voice in her head, "The word for your culture is . Remember that word and bestow it on those of your followers whom you wish to preserve in the Hollow World. One moon after the first of your followers are deposited in the Hollow World, the Spell of Preservation will determine the nature and limits of your followers and preserve them accordingly, and from then on this word, , will be available only to your priests in the Hollow World." The Hierarchs then dragged Britomart back to Pandius as she gradually recovered from this great revelation. Ordana then spoke to her, "Use your new privilege wisely, for it is up to us whether you will be able to exercise it more than once. Cultures saved in the Hollow World cannot be destroyed -- but they also cannot evolve and advance. Do not invoke your new privilege until you can foresee that the outer world is about to lose something of unique value." The other Immortals then offered similar words of praise and instruction and finally dismissed her. Once she departed, she looked on her family and friends in Glantri. They were of the Anglais people and had tagged along with their Sylaire and Klantyre neighbors when they traveled through magical gates from Laterre to the new world of Mystara. However, they found themselves in a strange nation called Glantri, where mages ruled and clerics were hunted down and executed -- the exact reverse of the situation back on Laterre. The people who mattered most to her were mundaners, including her father who by some miracle still remained alive over twenty years after her ascension to Immortality. Up until this point she had observed the gradual assimilation of the Anglais into the greater culture of Glantri and had been powerless to do anything at all about it -- until now. At that point she proceeded to identify those of her people who found themselves at odds with the magocracy, both mundaners and priests who still followed the philosophies of Laterre. She gave them her mark that she had just received and then searched the Hollow World for an uninhabited island where she coud relocate them. She soon found such an island off the coast of Milenia, and she then proceeded to remove those of her people who seemed least amenable to assimilation into the Glantrian magocracy. When she was done, that island was transformed from an uninhabited wilderness into a very pleasant (and dull!) Anglais countryside. The Council of the Hollow World (the true name of the "Inner Council" as known to Initiate Immortals) then summoned Diulanna to show her what her protegee had done. Diulanna was appalled, as she saw nothing about the "stuffy Anglais" that was worth preserving. The Hierarchs of the Council of the Hollow World showed no mercy as they laughed at thes apparently trivial use of the great privilege of access to the Hollow World. From the variety of jokes they cracked with one another, it was clear that Britomart would have to do something truly impressive before the Council would grant her another Key to the Hollow World. Meanwhile, they looked at her island and asked one another, "What is missing here?" After much discussion they agreed that what was missing was chaotic magic -- and so Ixion rounded up a variety of chaotic fairies from the outer world and relocated them into the forest south of the main Anglais settlement. Meanwhile, Ka found an endangered tribe of wemics whom he relocated south of that forest. At that point all were satisfied except for Hel, who agreed to the status quo after she relocated some troglodytes to the mountains north of the Anglais colony. Once all five Hierarchs were in accord, they passed two resolutions: 1) No more cultures could be relocated to the island that they had just populated. 2) Never again would a mere Initiate (even one about to become a Temporal) be granted the privileges of the Key to the Hollow World. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:17:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Maps of The Savage Baronies In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000517183712.007d0100@pop.wans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 17 May 2000, Andrew Theisen wrote: [Dylan Rickards asked for maps of the Savage Coast]: > Ironwolf's "Tales of the Known World" page has the Savage Baronies maps, as > does (IIRC) Thibault Sarlat's map page. Don't know the urls offhand for > either, but they can be accessed via the links page at > http://dnd.starflung.com Ironwolf: http://users.ewa.net/ironwolf/ Thibault Sarlat: http://perso.club-internet.fr/thibsylv/ (On Thibs page, check out both the Savage Coast and VotPA sections) Printed maps of the SAVAGE COAST are also available in the Red Steel boxed set and the Red Steel: Savage Baronies boxed set, aswell as in various issues of Dragon Magazine. H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:11:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: "V Babes" (was Slaving: Where to Get Them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The only problem is that some women (especially warrior women) consider > "babe" a demeaning term -- just the sort of word that a MCP ??? MCP ??? > like Rathanos > might use to refer to them. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:20:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Vorpal Bunnies (was "Thyatian events explained") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andr�s Piquer Otero ha scritto: > Speaking of weird monster types, are any of you familiar with the old > GrailQuest gamebook series??? I have all of them, translated in Italian. I loved them: they were the best gamebooks. Other good products by J.H. Brennan were "Dracula" and "Frankenstein", where you could play either the "hero" or the "villain". Great author...I had always thought to translate a lot of monsters into D&D. Maybe someday... > They had quite a lot of uncommon monsters, > based in puns and jokes, quite Carroll athmosphere. One of the gamebooks was > a parody of AD&D "Tomb of Horrors" module, "Tomb of Nightmares", was it? > Has anybody thought about writing mystara gamebooks online?? I really get > lots of nostalghia when remembering those old gamebooks of the 80s... > > Andr�s Sigh....I remember when I read my first gamebook, number 2 of Grailquest, in 1989, if I'm not wrong... I think I'm going in my room to cry a little. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:48:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Suitable Music for Mystaraphiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jdaly ha scritto: > And anything by Rush! Especially 2112, Rivendell, and an assorted few > "Prince By-Tor and the Snowdog" tunes. How could I forget Rush???? I was listening to them yesterday. Best albums: "A Farewell to Kings", the already jd-mentioned "2112" and "Caress of Steel", especially "The Necromancer". Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:48:21 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Shawn's site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thibault sarlat ha scritto: > boooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!! > shame on you Max!!!!!!!!!from now on your are no longer Max but "Med". > One more question like this and you would be "Min" > http://dnd.starflung.com AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG "Mister Sarlat, we are glad to give you the 1st prize for May's Monthly Worst Joke" By the way...I laughed...because I'm used to making similar jokes. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:47:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Key to the Hollow World (a short story to illustrate a theory) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good work Kaviyd! This is more or less the way I envisioned the Hollow = World Council to work; just never put any words to it. I don't think = that it's plausible that they would just dump some 'Chaotic' elements = into a preserved culture (even if it's stuffy), but, Hey!, it's your = Campaign! But to sum it up: -The Hollow World Council gives each Immortal (who is deemed worthy by = the Hierarch of corresponding Sphere) a 'Key' to place a culture into = the HW. -If it is deemed that this 'Key' has been misused the Immortal will not = be granted another. -The 'Key' will not be given to Novice Immortals. Some Immortals might, of course, figure out how to transport a culture = to the HW on their own, or be instructed by some shady Immortal who = hides from the Council, and thus create a little chaos. This is what = happened IMC when a part of Blackmoor ended up in the HW... Anyway, I like it! Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:55:12 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves (was: Alphatia and ... bla, bla,bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/15/00 2:24:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << > anyway...the perception is that Thy slaves eventually gain their freedom > quite easily. Considered the maximum fee they have to pay (100 gp, IIRC), this is not surprising. However, 100 gp is enough to prevent field-working slaves from buying their freedom. OTOH, a gladiator (or a slave who works as a clerk or butler, etc) might save this sum quite easily, but this kind of slaves are a minority. >> well...my problem with even gladiators and clerks gaining their nest egg is that they have to get some money. thy gladiators are not stated as being guaranteed a percentage of winnings like their RW roman equiv. clerks in particular have a dubious honor of perhaps seeing unlimited wealth pass beneath their noses but not being able to touch any of their own. one thingthat should be considered is that for all of their promises of buying their freedoms, thy slaves have rather slim hopes of gaining any gold except by discovery. likewise with no real income the master can easily accuse the slave of theft if need be. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:07:34 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "agathokles@liber" Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves (was: Alphatia and ... bla,bla, bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20well...my=20problem=20with=20even=20gladiators=20and=20clerks=20gaini= ng=20their=20nest=0D=0Aegg=20is=0D=0A>=20that=20they=20have=20to=20get=20= some=20money.=20thy=20gladiators=20are=20not=20stated=20as=0D=0Abeing=0D=0A= >=20guaranteed=20a=20percentage=20of=20winnings=20like=20their=20RW=20rom= an=20equiv.=20clerks=0D=0Ain=0D=0A>=20particular=20have=20a=20dubious=20h= onor=20of=20perhaps=20seeing=20unlimited=20wealth=0D=0Apass=0D=0A>=20bene= ath=20their=20noses=20but=20not=20being=20able=20to=20touch=20any=20of=20= their=20own.=20one=0D=0A>=20thingthat=20should=20be=20considered=20is=20t= hat=20for=20all=20of=20their=20promises=20of=0D=0Abuying=0D=0A>=20their=20= freedoms,=20thy=20slaves=20have=20rather=20slim=20hopes=20of=20gaining=20= any=20gold=0D=0Aexcept=0D=0A>=20by=20discovery.=20likewise=20with=20no=20= real=20income=20the=20master=20can=20easily=0D=0Aaccuse=20the=0D=0A>=20sl= ave=20of=20theft=20if=20need=20be.=0D=0A=0D=0AThey=20can=20receive=20mone= y,=20anyway,=20as=20a=20present.=20This=20can=20be=20quite=20common=0D=0A= for=20waiters,=20and=20even=20for=20clerks=20(though=20in=20this=20case,=20= a=20better=20word=0D=0Awould=20be=20"bribery").=20Also,=20gladiators=20mi= ght=20fight=20a=20bit=20better=20when=20they=0D=0Aknow=20they're=20going=20= to=20receive=20something=20if=20they=20win,=20and=20people=20who=20win=0D= =0Aa=20lot=20of=20money=20by=20bets=20on=20the=20gladiatorial=20games=20m= ight=20also=20give=0D=0Apresents=20to=20the=20winning=20gladiator.=0D=0A=0D= =0A=09Giampaolo=20Agosta=0D=0A=20=0A=0A= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:21:55 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves (was: Alphatia and ... bla,bla, bla) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/00 10:08:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << > well...my problem with even gladiators and clerks gaining their nest egg is > that they have to get some money. thy gladiators are not stated as being > guaranteed a percentage of winnings like their RW roman equiv. clerks in > particular have a dubious honor of perhaps seeing unlimited wealth pass > beneath their noses but not being able to touch any of their own. one > thingthat should be considered is that for all of their promises of buying > their freedoms, thy slaves have rather slim hopes of gaining any gold except > by discovery. likewise with no real income the master can easily accuse the > slave of theft if need be. They can receive money, anyway, as a present. This can be quite common for waiters, and even for clerks (though in this case, a better word would be "bribery"). Also, gladiators might fight a bit better when they know they're going to receive something if they win, and people who win a lot of money by bets on the gladiatorial games might also give presents to the winning gladiator. >> oh i won't dispute any charitable contributions. however there must be a reason for these contributions. gladiators have a degree of opportunities for such patrons. however the bulk of the slaves are not subject to such displays of praise. but back to gladiators....the problem with charitable contributions is that by showing their appreciation, the patrons are also limiting the gladiator's days in the arena. once he gets the sum he may not fight anymore. however as far as gladiators are involved i tend to think that eventually their owners free them. afterall a gladiator's life isn't infinite and a good gladiator could be quite profitable. of cours ei would not put it past a few gladiator owners to bet against their slave in their final battle and "influence the outcome". however i tend to think that as injuries and disfigurement take their toll most slave gladiators are freed or relagated to trainer status where freedom is even more an option. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:20:37 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Which way round is Alphatia?]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley wrote: > >However Joe Soldier is going to be well screwed by marching in the wrong= >direction to his supply camp during ground maneuvers away from the >floa= ting continent itself My point is that the people on the continent of Alphatia itself would not= need to make any change in their directions, just because they are relocated. = They essentially exist in a void, where whatever directions they shoulde decid= e to impose are all that matters. The only time such direction changes would be necessary would be in the instances that you cite- politicians dealing with the ground nations; sol= diers on maneuvers on the ground. I'd hope that people in those positions (politicians and soldiers) would be able to make such distinctions depend= ing on their varying situations. If you're suggesting that most Alphatian sol= diers are just sheep who can't think for themselves without some sort of leader= to guide them in the right direction, well, then Alphatia is better off stic= king to its own continent. >Unfortunately that's not simple at all because of the elevated (sic) >position Alphatia has within the Hollow World. I don't see why not. For an Alphatian on the continent, they'd still use = their own directions as a point of reference (OW E/W). It's only when they got = to the ground that they might have to scratch their heads for a minute, wond= ering at the groundlings' strange sense of direction. Thisis a situation that m= ost Alphatians are never going to be in, and I'd hope that those that are hav= e the sense to realize the difference, and make any necessary adjustments (whic= h really only amount to reversing direction or maps given them by groundlin= gs. If they rely on their own maps, with the same directions, there's no problem.) >The basic problem is if you are on the outer world facing North and stic= k >out your right arm that's East, in the Hollow World that's West. Since, >apparently, Alphatia still follows the outer world pattern any direction= s >given for travel in an E/W direction are 180 degrees out. You turn right= >instead of left and vice versa. See, this is something I never got about the HW boxed set. Why it would b= e at all necessary to make the E/W reversal on the maps. Within the Hollow Wor= ld, the Azcan Empire is to the east of the Malpheggi Swamps. To an Outer Worl= der, who makes the note that the Azcan Empire is actually beneath the Atruaghi= n Lands, and the Malpheggi Swamp is (roughly) beneath Darokin, the Azcan la= nds are west of the Malpheggi. It depends on your point of reference, as you said. Yet, since visitors from the Outer World are rare, and the Hollow World i= s about people who live in the HW, why should it make any difference to the= m what an OWer perspective is? West is west, and east is east, IMO, and all= this "swapping directions" is needlessly confusing, and really pointless, exce= pt to aid in referencing where a HW nation lay in relation to an OW nation. Rig= ht? ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: The Many Faces of Mystara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It might surprise people to learn this, but I actually did a bit of soul-searching regarding this charge directed at me: > > for for someone that is so craving of individual perception of said materials, you come across as quite "insistant" upon you perspective of things. > > The writer of that has a point, up to a point. We'll get to that. However, I've also been very consistant. Note several things: 1) I have always endevoured to be clear regarding my belief that people can and should do whatever they want in their own campaigns. However, that doesn't, nor do I think it should, stop me from advocating my position regarding topics discussed here. Also people doing whatever they want in their campaigns is different from joint projects, where if I'm a part of them I don't think I have to simply roll over when people promote what I think are strained and highly selective interpretations of things. 2) I have been very consistent, also, in what I try to advocate. I encourage and praise things when they "read-in-between the lines" of "too-nice"/Barneyesque matieriels in order to introduce new layers of conflict (I.E. concepts that create new rivalries based on schemes, machiavelian plots, and dislikes among the "harmonious" Houses of Darokin), and I abhore and resist/discourage efforts to "read-out" such things in other areas (I.E. re-interpretations of Alphatia that selectively dismiss its dark underbelly and thus create a more "benign" and objectively likable Alphatia. . .which then becomes a floating bastion of ennui from a gaming standpoint). As for why, alert readers will remember the major post I made regarding the Karimari/Ulimwengu, where I "ranked" types of game settings according to how much adventure potential they "inately" have. Remember I ranked the original, DotE version of Alphatia very high on that list (in the second catagory), but the "new" Alphatia fell into the least, most useless category. People who are afraid that Alphatia will become a forgotten part of Mystara really ought to share some of my concerns in this regard. If the stakes are so high that I, someone who's usually put in the category of "Alphatiaphobe" would argue so vehemently in this respect, then perhaps those who want only the best of all possible gaming futures for Alphatia should do some soul-searching themselves (btw, back to mine in a min, I promise). 3) Also, I have nothing against people saying "IMC our Alphatia is thus and such, conquered Thyatis on this and then date, and wasn't sunk during WotI, but lives on and is widely respected in Mystara because of the inately superior sense of ethical standards its population, especially the aristocracy, evidences". That's unobjectionable. However, I recoil and react badly to selective readings of the materiel. Now, it's been said that, for example, DotE is vague - and I've sometimes agreed with that. After thinking about it during my period of soul-searching, I've come to the conclusion that this is not true. If DotE has any weaknesses as a product, it is not vagueness. DotE might be called incomplete, and it might be called disorganized. But on the topics it adresses, it is not vague (I.E. lets go back to Tylion, and the interpretation that he was over-stating things in an effort to "recruit" Galatia to the side of Alphatia. First off, even if that interpretation is true it seems a very odd way to recruit someone to be loyal to your cause by "overstating" how bad aspects of the society is. But actually DotE provides a strong indication, and not an "in character" one, that Tylion/"Terari" believes what he's saying about Alphatian society - that he's not simply painting a picture to "recruit" Galatia - DotE, DM's Sourcebook, p.53, under "Tylion IV" under "Personality" it states "He has grown thoughtful and introspective enough that he perceives flaws in the Alphatian way of life. . .") Now, I don't hide my light under a bushel (shocker, eh?), nor am I given to false modesty (again, surprise, right?) - though I'm not nearly an expert on everything (I wouldn't pretend to be absolutely familiar with the Rockhome Gaz, or the Azcan Gaz, or most Gazeteers, actually), I'm not arguably this lists foremost expert on Dawn of the Emperors, I *am* this lists foremost expert on Dawn of the Emperors. I'm often surprised when people who like and are interested in, say Alphatia, tell me that it's been years since they've read DotE (as has litterally happened, and not just with one or two people, either) - this is especially surprising when they are working on Alphatia-related projects (like in certain MA Teams). Why does it surprise me? Because, in the "work" I do on Mystara, I'm nearly constantly refering to DotE. Though "refering" is probably not the right word (and this gets back to the disorganization aspect of DotE), because one can't just look something up on page X - there are pertinant scattered references to things throughout. Each time I read through it, even now, I notice something I didn't notice before. Again, DotE is *not* vague about the things it adresses. It's disorganized and incomplete, true (I.E. the most notorious example of incompleteness is that several Alphatian Kingdoms aren't even discussed/described in the DM Sourcebook). I've worn my original copy so much that a couple weeks ago I mail ordered another one, and I'm thinking of buying a third while I can still get 'em. But I still miss stuff. However, one thing that IMO *can't* be done is to dismiss or disregard what I say - without dismissing and disregarding the materiels themselves (for example, if I suggest that one reason Alphatia's population is "low" in density is explainable by reference to the First PWA, where under Bettelyn it says "Bettelyn's rulers did not constrain its population from growing and building, with the result that the nation has many more cities, towns, and villages in any given area than most Alphatian nations." (p.21), which strongly implies that in other Alphatian Kingdoms the rulers *did* constrain populations from growing and building (and still Bettelyn, who's rulers didn't impose such constraints, is hardly teeming with people), one can disregard me only by simoultaniously disregarding the matieriels themselves (which is what is usually done) - same as with the interpretation that Alphatia's courts provide near-perfect justice: one can only ignore my interpretation and hold that interpretation by ignoring or dismissing what DotE's DM Sourcebook says on the subject (p.45, under "Greenspur"). Now, because DotE is disorganized, people can correctly and honestly say that they were unaware of this or that thing that I refer to on the subject. However, that never alters their position: they just dismiss the reference on, IMO, specious grounds. It's as if they were still unaware of the reference. This frustrates me to no end, which is what often leads to problems. Now, that's my fault, for expecting something when *I* should have learned from experience. HOWEVER, to return at long last to the topic of my soul-searching, where *I* go wrong is being overly-argumentative, very assertive/agressive in making my points. Also, I have the same tendency that "my worthy debating opponents do", in growing unwilling to conceed any point, especially as the discussion wears on and I get frustrated by what I *percieve* (which might be wrong) to be intransigence in the "other side". However, it is sometimes avered to that I never conceed anything, but that isn't the case - especially at the begining of exchanges, before positions have seemingly "hardened", I will often say that so and so makes a good point. That seems to go unoticed and unrecognized, however, but that is probably partly my part because I tend to bury such things in long missives. So, anyhow, things for me to work on, and think about more - and IMO there are things others might want to think about, too. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion John wrote: >This is a good point. So let's say that Stonewall the kingdom is no more. Does Stonewall the culture (ie tolerance for fighters) live on, as say a small village somewhere in a secluded mountain valley, or does the Stonewall culture vanish as well (if just for the time being) and remain a 'potential' cultural trait for future generations of Alphatians to 'rediscover'? Possibly. Or more likely, gentry and commoners (perhaps a few open-minded aristocrats - such as clerics or rare paladins) continue to hold to these beliefs - all the more so because Stonewall would likely cease to exist as a result of an invasion/war, and there is no kingdom "backing up" this philosophy anymore. Since it existed on the surface, there is room in the Alphatian socio-political continuum for benevolent attitudes towards fighters - thus IMO such beliefs can never totally be wiped out. It is conceivable, though, that this trait could become so obscure to the point that it *almost* disappears, though (but never, in fact, falls over the edge into extinction). Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:38:56 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>But I must admit that at this time I am prepared to abandon the "time passage" theory in favor of the "marked by the Immortals" theory. Since the Immortals cast the original Spell of Preservation, this theory would suggest that the Spell of Preservation has a fairly simple "I/O routine". At any point an Immortal could give it the "Add new culture" command, to which the Spell of Preservation would reply with a new unique identifier. That Immortal would then apply that identifier to the group that he wishes to protect, whether he is transporting them himself, guiding them through the caverns or polar openings, or has found them already present in the Hollow World with no other "marker". Once the Spell of Preservation detects a sufficiently large number of people with the same marker in a sufficiently small area, it can do its analysis and begin preserving them. Individuals born into that culture would count as part of it until they defy their cultural bias enough to become permanent outsiders, at which point their "marker" would be lost and they could be given the "mark" of a different culture. << I have to say that I like the marked theory much more than I like time theory. To a certian degree it makes sense that the immortals would want to distinguish which of their followers should be preserved. I suppose it just depends upon how much chaos you want to insert into your campaign. Marking cultures makes the HW a much more orderly place. [My personal slant is for having things be much more chaotic, and less in the control of the immortals.] There is actually some proof for the marking theory. I brought up the Nithian city of Hapta before (the one populated by Tanagoro). I went back a re-read it this morning, and it mentions that the Tanagoro's patron immortal (IIRC Rathanos) had to lift their cultural bias to allow them to be assimilated by the Nithians. In essence he un-marked them. This also seems to imply that no matter how populous a culture is, if an individual is marked, then he will not be assimilated by another culture. There is only one problem that I have with this theory, and that has to do with "new cultures" that evolve inside of the HW. Presumably these cultures are not marked (at least not when they first emerge, but of course they may be marked later on). An unmarked culture, although not protected by the SoP, would not be hindered by it either. Nothing would prevent them from learning technologies from their neighbors. I could envision such a culture taking the best of all technoogies from their neighbors (while their neighbors, although interested in trade woul not be interested in using new, and possibly better, tech). This new culture could quickly rise to dominance in the HW. How would you deal with such an occurance? >>Incidentally, that does suggest a possible new clerical spell for the Hollow World that would be a variant of the AD&D spell "Ceremony" in its "Dedication" version. By casting this spell on an individual who has no cultural bias (either because he has already lost it by defying it or because he is an adventurer from the outer world who never had one), that person can be turned into a full member of that culture who receives both the benefits and the limitations of the cultural bias for that particular culture. << This is a pretty cool idea. I can see some possibilities for this spell. Perhaps a tribal shaman goes through a ceremony to make the PCs an honorary member of the tribe...it's only later that they find they start to adhere to that culture's cultural bias.... ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:11:06 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It is conceivable, though, that this trait could become so obscure to the point that it *almost* disappears, though (but never, in fact, falls over the edge into extinction). << Do people think the converse can be true also? Take a society where the "Meta-Culture" has a certain aspect, but a part of its constituent sub-cultures is an "exception" to the "norm" - take the Stonewall example, where their society is in some respects at odds or an exception to Alphatian society as a whole. BUT - instead of shrinking, can the "Stonewall Mores" spread to the point where that view becomes the dominant perception rather than an exceptional one, with the previous Meta-Cultural outlook becoming the minority point of view, or even almost disapearing? IF that can happen, and if one then assumes that there are a variety of outlooks in most HW nations, then isn't it possible for a culture to change in ways like this so that it becomes unrecognizable from what it once was/was "preserved" as being? Its "essential characteristics" being reduced while the exception becomes the norm and the previous norm dwindles and all but vanishes? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:48:10 +0000 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Benson wrote: > > oh i won't dispute any charitable contributions. however there must be a > reason for these contributions. gladiators have a degree of opportunities for > such patrons. however the bulk of the slaves are not subject to such displays > of praise. Here are a few good reason for a slave to be given money/freedom: -slave owners do free loyal slaves occasionally, for they get a double benefit from it: they improve the overall efficiency of the slaves (which is importat, especially when slaves are given position of responsibility, as, say, farm manager), by showing them that they actually can gain freedom, and they gain new clientes, citizens who can support them in the political life. Also, the new citizens are quite poor, so they still depend on their patrons. -some slaves who manage to rise in their masters' esteem are freed at their masters' death. -some slaves may perform services for people other than their masters. Even when these activities are less than legal, the earned money can be passed as "charitable contribution". In general, I think that Thyatian slave owners would use a reward/punishment policy, while Alphatians would use only punishment. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:28:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Which way round is Alphatia?]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only time such direction changes would be necessary would be in the instances that you cite- politicians dealing with the ground nations; soldiers on maneuvers on the ground. I'd hope that people in those positions (politicians and soldiers) would be able to make such distinctions depending on their varying situations Huge problem with that is the Spell of Preservation, as it wil make this error part of the fabric of being an Alphatian. The only people who could do what you want easily would be those who've given up their Cultural Bias If they rely on their own maps, with the same directions, there's no problem.) There will be many times when they won't be able to do this, and since it is well know that people following directions correctly get lost, the chances for mistakes are legion. See, this is something I never got about the HW boxed set. Why it would be at all necessary to make the E/W reversal on the maps. Personally I think its because the Immortals think in terms of Spinward and Anti-Spinward, rather than East and West. They've set it up so that it's actually easier for them, not the mortals who occasionally worship them. Yet, since visitors from the Outer World are rare, and the Hollow World is about people who live in the HW, why should it make any difference to them what an OWer perspective is? West is west, and east is east, IMO, and all this "swapping directions" is needlessly confusing, and really pointless, except to aid in referencing where a HW nation lay in relation to an OW nation. Right? However, now the most powerful culture within the Hollow World uses outer world nomenclature for directions. It'll be their own translations of directions from Neathar, done by those in Alphatian Neatharum, which will be the basis for all the inherent mistakes. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:35:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > IF that can happen, and if one then assumes that there are a variety of > outlooks in most HW nations, then isn't it possible for a culture to change > in ways like this so that it becomes unrecognizable from what it once > was/was "preserved" as being? Its "essential characteristics" being reduced > while the exception becomes the norm and the previous norm dwindles and all > but vanishes? > Funnily enough that's apparently exactly what happened with the Azcans. PS James you're not playing fair, there hasn't been a USG for a while now! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:45:30 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Funnily enough that's apparently exactly what happened with the Azcans. > Yes, I thought of them - a lot of the basic contours of Azcan society remained, though, so they are still recognizably Azcans - but in theory if enough previously "minority"/less significant cultural aspects come to predominate and formerly over-arching cultural aspects are thus displaced and decrease in importance/influence, one could have something that is effectively indestinguishable from allowing the culture to change (I.E. not having an SoP in the first place), if the place thus becomes significantly different from what was being "preserved". But, yes, the religious change was certainly an example of a formerly "minor" aspect of Azcan culture becoming predominant, plus the introduction of a new patron-Immortal. Shows just how much *can* happen within the "limits" of the SoP (IMO, people sometimes make a boogie-man out of the SoP and dislike the HW because of its "restrictions", but it isn't that big a deal, really. . .) > PS James you're not playing fair, there hasn't been a USG for a while > now! > Hmmmn. . .I'll try to come up with one for you. 8-) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:56:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Campaign detail question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An important object is going to come into my PCs' hands in a few sessions, > and I need a bit of help making it Mystara-correct. > It's a wooden box (sealed with the Nicodemus' locking spell) that I was > imagining resembling the delicately inlaid wooden boxes one can get in the > Middle East. My first thought would be to make such a box Ylari, but I'm > not sure that's appropriate: The character who owns it is Nicodemus Majoh, > a Thyatian who moved to Karameikos when Stefan Karameikos took control of > the territory. I know that Thyatis has previously controlled Ylaruam, but > would that have been within Nicodemus' lifetime? (He was born in the 940s.) > I want this to be a momento of his travels. > If Thyatis didn't control Ylaruam during Nicodemus' adult life, is there > perhaps some Sea of Dread island or other part of the Thyatian Empire that > would produce interesting woodwork? Any details on such cultures and their > handicrafts? > Thanks. > > BEAU The first thing that comes to mind is the box actually comes from the Duchy of Tel Akbir, which is of course mainly populated with Thyatians of Ylarite descent. However, finely crafted woodwork could also come from Alfheim, Ierendi, Ochalea, or possibly even a small village situated in the Thanegioth Archipelago. Any help?? :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:30:15 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Do people think the converse can be true also? Take a society where the "Meta-Culture" has a certain aspect, but a part of its constituent sub-cultures is an "exception" to the "norm" - take the Stonewall example, where their society is in some respects at odds or an exception to Alphatian society as a whole. BUT - instead of shrinking, can the "Stonewall Mores" spread to the point where that view becomes the dominant perception rather than an exceptional one, with the previous Meta-Cultural outlook becoming the minority point of view, or even almost disapearing? IF that can happen, and if one then assumes that there are a variety of outlooks in most HW nations, then isn't it possible for a culture to change in ways like this so that it becomes unrecognizable from what it once was/was "preserved" as being? Its "essential characteristics" being reduced while the exception becomes the norm and the previous norm dwindles and all but vanishes? << I think that this happens all of the time in the HW. Geoff had a great example about the Milenians. Their culture has two extremes...one wishes to organize as an empire, while the other wishes to organize as a republic. Both were cultural traits that came with the Milenians to the HW, so both will stay with them for all eternity. It doesn't matter which trait is dominant to the SoP, because both traits will still be preserved. [The HW DMs guide actually makes reference to this in the first couple of pages.] The Azcans are another example. When transported to the HW, only a minority practiced blood sacrifice. Atzanteotle changed that to a majority (and the folks in MA have just made another reversal...back to the original preferences). Blood sacrifices will never be removed from the Azcans (the SoP won't allow it), but that cultural trait can be down-played to near extinction. The question isn't that simple however, because (for example) the Alpher empire is made up of several sub-cultures. So what does the SoP preserve? The Imperial culture, or the sub-cultures? Probably both. See one of Geoff's earlier posts...I think he describes what would happen fairly well. That said, if an Imperial culture was preserved over all of Alphatia, I would say that a Stonewallian mindset could never become prevailent (over the entire empire). I just don't see that trait as being a part of Imperial customs. What is an imperial custom is to allow several sub-cultures to exist inside of the empire...so in that sense the subcultures could change (become more or less Stonewallian), just as long as the prevailent imperial custom did not. [All of the above is IMO, of course.] ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:48:45 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > > > Funnily enough that's apparently exactly what happened with the Azcans. > Yes, I thought of them - a lot of the basic contours of Azcan society remained, though, so they are still recognizably Azcans - but in theory if enough previously "minority"/less significant cultural aspects come to predominate and formerly over-arching cultural aspects are thus displaced and decrease in importance/influence, one could have something that is effectively indestinguishable from allowing the culture to change (I.E. not having an SoP in the first place), if the place thus becomes significantly different from what was being "preserved". << Hmmm...not quite, I think. Lets say that (for arguments sake...even though I realize that cultural 'evolution' is quite a bit more complex than this -- and quite frankly I don't even like that term...just can't think of a better one right now) there are several cultural traits, each one an important step in reaching the next. Trait A <----> Trait B <----> Trait C A culture can't get to trait C from trait A (or vice versa). It has to transition through trait B. Now let's say that a culture in transition from A to B is placed in the Hollow World. That culture still harbors ideas about both A and B. While in the HW they can make the transition from (almost) completely A to (almost) completely B, indefinately. They will never be able to purge either A or B from their society, although for all intents and purposes it might seem that they have. What they could never do with the SoP in effect, is transition from B to C. So although a culture can change, it can never really grow into something new. So while, at any given time, you might have an Azcan, Traldaran, or Nithian society that seems to differ from its original 'transplanted' culture, there is always the chance that it will drift back to its previous settings (and given an infinite amount of time, it most definately will). Since immortals are...immortal, what do they care about the time it takes for this to happen. If they ever have a need, or use for an individual of a specific culture which displays a specific cultural trait (that is preserved in the HW), they can rest assured that somewhere in that shell of a world, that person exists. ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:19:08 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: thibault sarlat Subject: update on my site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone. I have just updated my site and corrected all the malfunctions concerning the missing maps and strange map-links. If you ever find another one please report it to me. I have a bunch of new maps ready to be published I remade all the nations of the Known World. If you want we can make interactive maps (just like the one i made with karameikos).I just need to get the entries/descriptions of the places you want to be depicted. I tried to make a big TM like map (compiled version of the maps of the KW but it is very big , i.e 4 meg in gif format). so long , if you have any comment or need regarding maps , think about me. -- Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177. My first adress (checked daily) is thibsylv@club-internet.fr My other adress is tsarlat@etu.montaigne.u-bordeaux.fr Homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi Pour rejoindre la Mystara mailing liste francophone, rendez-vous sur ma page de garde en bas. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > See one of Geoff's earlier posts...I think he describes what would happen fairly well. That said, if an Imperial culture was preserved over all of Alphatia, I would say that a Stonewallian mindset could never become prevailent (over the entire empire). I just don't see that trait as being a part of Imperial customs. << See, that's what I was wondering (though I might have phrased it better) - if it could become prevailent. Like in the examples cited, it seems like this sort of shift *might* be possible - especially since in all parts of Alphatia there are probably some few people who share attitudes similar to those that prevail in Stonewall. In your follow up mail to this one, it seems you reach the same sort of conclusion - which would seem to indicate the possibility (which IMO is different from the desireability from the point of game design directions; that's a whole different question) of what might be considered a sweeping change in previously dominant Alphatian attitudes towards the role and status of non-spellcasters in their society. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:46:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 Caroletti wrote: >By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, >who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter >we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which >didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. > LOL! Good point! I'm a little confused, though! I thought jabs at James were exclusively reserved for us blasted Alphatiaphiles - what gives ? ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 Caroletti wrote: >By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, >who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter >we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which >didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. > > > LOL! Good point! > Well, actually, that's not really what I said, though: I said the list should throw a party if there is a new topic (that hasn't been discussed before) that has at least three participants and at least 10 total messages - doesn't matter if Alphatia & Thyatis are involved or not. However, I'm not sure if the status of Alfheim Elves & whether they should get a home in the HW was ever discussed before: that might be a new topic (!!!). . .but I haven't been on the list forever and at all times, so someone else would probably be more qualified to say whether it is or not. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:03:55 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: "Jenni A.M.Merrifield" Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 > On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 Caroletti wrote: > >By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, > >who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter > >we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which > >didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. > > On Thu, 18 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > Well, actually, that's not really what I said, though: > I said the list should throw a party if there is a new topic (that hasn't > been discussed before) that has at least three participants and at least 10 > total messages - doesn't matter if Alphatia & Thyatis are involved or not. > However, I'm not sure if the status of Alfheim Elves & whether they should > get a home in the HW was ever discussed before: that might be a new topic > (!!!). . .but I haven't been on the list forever and at all times, so > someone else would probably be more qualified to say whether it is or not. Having been on this list for a very long time (not quite the very beginning, but close -- I think my first post is around archive 13 or something like that. But I digress) I think its safe to say that I have no recollection of this topic ever coming up before. Now I do have to admit that I don't always follow all the threads, but unless someone else who knows where such a conversation appears in the archive speaks up, I think we can declare this PARTY TIME! ;-) Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com _______________________________________________________________________ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go _______________________________________________________________________ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:24:17 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: "V Babes" (was Slaving: Where to Get Them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-18 5:05:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scarole@TIN.IT writes: << > The only problem is that some women (especially warrior women) consider > "babe" a demeaning term -- just the sort of word that a MCP ??? MCP ??? > like Rathanos > might use to refer to them. >> MCP = male chauvinist pig ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:24:19 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-18 1:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << There is only one problem that I have with this theory, and that has to do with "new cultures" that evolve inside of the HW. Presumably these cultures are not marked (at least not when they first emerge, but of course they may be marked later on). An unmarked culture, although not protected by the SoP, would not be hindered by it either. Nothing would prevent them from learning technologies from their neighbors. I could envision such a culture taking the best of all technoogies from their neighbors (while their neighbors, although interested in trade woul not be interested in using new, and possibly better, tech). This new culture could quickly rise to dominance in the HW. How would you deal with such an occurance? >> Easy -- such people would be in the same position as outer world adventurers, who would have the exact same advantages over the natives and perhaps even more ideas of what to do with them. I would put this situation in the category of something that simply hasn't happened yet. But if and when it does, those people will not exactly be inconspicuous, and Immortal intervention could not be ruled out. One reaction might be that the Hierarchs of the Hollow World Council ask around for some Immortal willing to be their patron. If anybody gives a positive response, that Immortal is told, "Fine! Mark them as yours!" Problem solved. If NOBODY is willing to claim them, then the combined activities of many Immortals as well as the normal operation of the Spell of Preservation will work to defeat them. It is also possible that an Immortal may let large numbers of loyal followers into the Hollow World but not mark the, as Vanya apparently did with the Heldannic Knights. Still, despite all the advantages they had, the Heldannic Knights never came close to conquering any significant portion of the Hollow World even though their ideology virtually required them to attempt that feat. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:24:20 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Spell of Preservation algorithm overload MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is one thing about the Spell of Preservation as an algorithm that has put an interesting idea into my head -- how good are its routines for handling errors, exceptions, and overloads? As others have mentioned, the creators of the Spell of Preservation envisioned relocating a few clans or villages, not a small continent containing millions of people. If all of the Alphatians were "marked" as being part of a common culture, then the comparisons that the Spell of Preservation had to do in order to analyze that new culture would have been many orders of magnitude greater than any Immortal envisioned it would have to handle. The errors that resulted would explain many of the strange things that happened at that point: 1) Some Alphatians were "deleted" from both physical existence and the memories of their fellow Alphatians. 2) The "mental conversion" part of the preservation process stopped working before it got around to "converting" the high level types. 3) The "mortal spell suppression" part of the routine was corrupted, with the result that many previously forbidden spells are no longer suppressed. 4) And I would not be at all surprised if there were other effects that will make themselves known in the future. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:09:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hmmm...not quite, I think. Lets say that (for arguments sake...even though I realize > that cultural 'evolution' is quite a bit more complex than this -- and quite frankly I > don't even like that term...just can't think of a better one right now) there are several > cultural traits, each one an important step in reaching the next. > Trait A <----> Trait B <----> Trait C > A culture can't get to trait C from trait A (or vice versa). It has to transition > through trait B. > Now let's say that a culture in transition from A to B is placed in the Hollow World. > That culture still harbors ideas about both A and B. While in the HW they can make the > transition from (almost) completely A to (almost) completely B, indefinately. They will > never be able to purge either A or B from their society, although for all intents and > purposes it might seem that they have. > What they could never do with the SoP in effect, is transition from B to C. So although > a culture can change, it can never really grow into something new. > Then again, if whatever Trait C is observed by only ONE member of that culture, the possibility exists for this to rise to predominance. Slaves from foreign wars, offspring of traders between cultures there are ways it could happen. Small chances maybe, but chances nevertheless. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:08:01 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-18 10:46:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Then again, if whatever Trait C is observed by only ONE member of that culture, the possibility exists for this to rise to predominance. Slaves from foreign wars, offspring of traders between cultures there are ways it could happen. Small chances maybe, but chances nevertheless. >> But that trait must be present somewhere in the culture at the time it is moved to the Hollow World. Anything not present somewhere in the culture at that time cannot be acquired unless it is trivially "similar" to something already there. Note, however, that the strongest effect of the Spell of Preservation is on clothing, armor, and weapons -- it is so easy to detect the material trappings of a culture that the limits on them are easily calculated and then enforced. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:36:34 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Building children of Immortals on point basis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I prefer character creation systems in which the effects of chance are not permitted to unbalance the resulting character, I hereby offer a system for creating children of Immortals for a Mystara campaign. It is based on a combination of "Wrath of the Immortals", the 2E rules, and various tidbits that have been "leaked" about the 3E rules. Base level: Clearly children of Immortals should not be used in a campaign where the existing characters are 1st level mortals. However, if you have an ongoing campaign where most player characters are well past 1st level, base level can be set to one level below level of least experienced player character in campaign. Similarly, if you are starting a brand new campaign in which you plan to use "heroic" characters, you may set "base level" as desired. Either way, if a player creating a new character for such a campaign desires to introduce the child of an Immortal as a player character, reduce effective "base level" by number of points allocated for Immortal parent. Class selection: Immortal heritage frees a character from any class restrictions based on race or cultural background. Thus, the offspring of an Immortal by a Rockhome dwarf would not have "Fighter" as a default or preferred class, would face no obstacles to learning arcane magic or becoming a mage, and would have a "preferred multi-class" of "Any". Ability scores: Ability scores are generated according to point system that has already been revealed on Eric Noah's site. For children of Immortals, increase default score by +3 and maximum score by +6 before applying any other adjustments based on allocations from Immortal heritage. Points allocated: Divide level of Immortal parent by three and round up, giving a result in the range 1-12. If BOTH parents are Immortals, use level of more powerful parent for this purpose. Children of Immortals may allocate their points from Immortal heritage as follows: Ability score improvements: Each point allocated to an ability score improves it by +1d6. Under a point allocation scheme that increases base score by +3 and maximum score by +6. Conversely, each negative point allocated to an ability score removes 1d6 from the roll, with a corresponding penalty to base and maximum scores. Since adjustments for all ability scores default to +1d6, the full range of adjustments is from -2d6/2d6 (-2 points) to +2d6/6d6 (+2 points). Level: Each point allocated for level improves character level by +1 above base level. If adjusted "base level" is less than level 5, then the player must expend enough points to ensure that character level is raised to 5+. Conversely, if adjusted "base level" is greater than level 10, then the player is free to reduce "base level" further by converting all levels above level 10 to Immortal heritage points. Special powers: The child of an Immortal may select any one non-attack spell as a permanent special ability. The cost of this ability is +1 per level of spell. Longevity: At a cost of +n points, maximum age as well as ages at which physical deterioratiion occurs may be multiplied by n+1. Base age is not affected, but dice added to base age are multiplied by that n+1 factor. Maximum longevity is x5 at a cost of +4 points. Virtual immortality: At a cost of +6 points, the child of an Immortal can achieve "virtual immortality". Such a character is considered to be of Exalted status (as per WotI rules), begins play at the base age for his or her race, multiplies "middle age" by 2, "old age" by 3, and "venerable age" by 4. A "virtually immortal" character cannot die of old age (maximum life span is indefinite) and automatically succeeds at any system shock roll required for magical aging. Odd appearance: Children of Immortals are likely to have very odd physical characteristics. Regardless of the nature of these oddities, they are rated according to their effects on reaction rolls, which may range from -2 to +1, with points spent or gained on an inverse basis. Magic resistance: Each 5% of magic resistance costs +1 point, to a maximum of +5. Tough skin: Each +1 bonus to AC (to a maximum of +2) costs +1 point, to a maximum of +2 (base AC 8). Immortal Foe: Children of Immortals sometimes inherit their Immortal parent's foes. The maximum number of foes equals number of Immortal parents, and each such foe costs -2 Immortal heritage points (which are thus freed up for expenditure for various goodies). Each foe will do his or her best to make life difficult for the character and will subtly intervene approximately once every other adventure to manipulate the situation to the character's disadvantage. For those of you who have copies of WotI and/or have definite ideas about the abilities of demigods: Have I left out anything of importance? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:34:31 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Carl Quaif Subject: Re: OT: Doug Henning (Was Re: Wow Great Update on the Site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/05/00 15:11:35 GMT Daylight Time, au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA writes: > The Natural Law Party. A couple of their prospective MPs came to my > campus around the '93 election to gain support. What was interesting > about the whole thing was that they were able to field so many candidates > (somewhere around 250 or so nationally - some in every province IIRC). We have them over here, too. Quite a few people still aren't sure whether or not they're a big Pythonesque prank, even after several years. > >Their platform included hiring a hundred "Yogic Fliers" to "encircle the > parliament buildings" in order to protect it and the people inside it from > negative karmic energy ... or something like that. > > I remember that...heh heh... ;-) Me too! during the last Parliamentary General Election, the NLP "party political broadcast" was the only one I watched all the way through - it was hysterical. It should have won the "best comedy" award at the BAFTA ceremony, IMHO. > Aahhhhh, Dougie, we hardly knew ye... Although I remember him, too. My Grandma thought he was cute. My sister thought he looked like a poodle. Carl Q. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:36:26 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Building Progeny on a point basis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who do not own copies of the boxed set "Glantri: Kingdom of Magic", "Progeny" are humans or demi-humans who claim at least some trace amount of ancestry from some magical monster. Since the system presented in that boxed set consisted of one random roll after another, I now offer a variant system based on points. Base level: Unlike with children of Immortals, Progeny do not automatically accept a penalty to effective base level. However, if the disadvantages taken by a Progeny character include an XP penalty and base level is greater than one, then starting XP total is reduced accordingly, with a possible loss of a level or two. Classes: Regardless of racial or cultural restrictions, all Progeny have at least "minor arcane talent". Thus, even if they would otherwise be barred from beginning play as bards or sorcerers, Progeny are free to begin play in either of these classes. Point allocation: Progeny receive zero points for their advantages and defects. Thus, it is mandatory for advantages and defects to balance out. XP penalty: XP penalty may be 0%, -20%, or -40%, with -4 points returned per -20% XP penalty. The XP penalty of -40% is available only to Progeny who take at least one extraordinary ability. Ability score adjustments: Each point of adjustment to roll, base score, minimum score, and maximum score costs +/-1 point. Minimum adjustment is -1; maximum adjustment is +3 for charisma, +2 for strength, dexterity, and constitution, and +1 for intelligence and wisdom. AC adjustment: Each point of bonus to base AC costs one point, to a maximum of +2 (base AC 8). Saving throws: Each point of adjustment to saving throw vs. poison or spells costs +/- 1 point. Adjustment beyond +/- 1 point is not allowed. A bonus of +1 to all saving throws costs 3 points, as does complete immunity to either poison or disease (but not both). Complete immunity to poison or disease counts as a +3 ability. Odd appearance: For Progeny, odd appearance is always a disadvantage that results in a penalty to reaction rolls of -1 to -2. For such defects a character receives a number of bonus points equal to reaction penalty. Strange aura: This effect results in a -3 reaction adjustment and thus is worth a -3 point bonus to the affected Progeny. Nervousness in natural animals: This effect is unnoticeable by sentient humanoids but totally eliminates the possibility of a positive reaction from animals. This effect is worth a -2 point bonus. Extraordinary abilities: All of the following abilities are "extraordinary abilities" that may qualify a character for the -40% XP penalty. Spell abilities: Cost of the ability to cast any spell once per day equals level of spell. If spell is reversible and reverse version of spell is denied to character, spell may be cast +2 times per day. Conversely, further limits on ability to cast spell reduce spell cost as follows: 3x/week: -1 point 2x/week: -2 points 1x/week: -3 points Natural attacks: Bite attack of 1d6 is worth +1 point. Claw attacks of 1d4+1 per claw are worth +2 points. Dragon breath weapon: Damage (based on breath weapon of adult dragon) and specific effects vary with breath weapon type of patron as follows: White: 2 Black: 3 Green: 4 Blue: 5 Red: 6 Gold: 8 Add +2 for Amber dragon and +1 for all other gemstone dragons to account for special effects of breath weapons. Each +5% of magic resistance costs +1 point. Again, for those of you who have the boxed set "Glantri: KIngdom of Magic" -- did I miss anything important? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:50:46 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: More on Progeny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a couple of points that I missed in regard to Progeny: Longevity: Progeny enjoy the same privileges as children of Immortals in this area. Maximum longevity for people who are not members of the New Averoigne royal family is x4. New Averoigne royal family: Members of the d'Ambreville family of New Averoigne receive all of the benefits of "virtual Immortality" as defined for children of Immortals except that they are of mortal rather than Exalted status. This advantage is balanced out by the -20% XP penalty. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:07:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But that trait must be present somewhere in the culture at the time it > is moved to the Hollow World. Anything not present somewhere in the > culture at that time cannot be acquired unless it is trivially "similar" to > something already there. > Kingdom of Nithia disagrees with you. Check the creation of the city of Hapta. Don't you just love 'canon' when it agrees with your point of view? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:01:42 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion James wrote: >IF that can happen, and if one then assumes that there are a variety of >outlooks in most HW nations, then isn't it possible for a culture to change >in ways like this so that it becomes unrecognizable from what it once >was/was "preserved" as being? Its "essential characteristics" being reduced >while the exception becomes the norm and the previous norm dwindles and all >but vanishes? Good point. The one example where I see this happening is the case of the Azcans. IIRC, they were polytheistic upon their arrival into the HW, but later became almost monotheistic under Atzanteotl. In this sense, the culture remains roughly the same (bloody, violent), but the focus of devotion, and in some respects the ways in which they practice their culture - changes. Now, under the MA (1016), it would appears that polytheism might indeed be making a comeback - showing (to me) that the Azcans do have a "cultural continuum", along which they can move as circumstances (and prominent individuals) dictate. IN the Alphatian case, let us assume that "Stonewallianism" becomes far more popular over several decades/centuries, then we could see a situation where tolerance for fighters is far more widespread than is the case now, but the Alphatian people would still be Alphatian (ie: reluctance to mix with other cultures, a sense of superiority, an affinity for magic). Alphatia, even an altered one like this, could never become a Thyatis (or similar culture) - it would always be Alphatian, and many of the aspects of the composite mindset would likely remain roughly the same. For example, I'm sure that the main difference between Stonewall and other nations is that, although imperial law carries just as much force there as elsewhere (ie: mages have one set of laws, and everyone else has another); the difference is in enforcement. The elite of that society, for various reasons (being founded, IIRC, by adventurer-types kind of helps here - open-mindedness seeming to be a trait of that sort of people), decided that fighter and thieves are just as deserving of respect as mages, and so are treated accordingly. How might this work? Perhaps, if the bureaucracy forwards reports of trials to Sundsvall, the data is doctored so that it seems that Stonewall adheres more strongly to overall standards than it actually does, or the prestige of having the largest city (plus a competent, relatively well-trained and motivated army), dissuades others from making a fuss. A digression, I know, but I think there is a case to be made for some flexibility in terms of culture - so long as the nation does not change in aggregate. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:12:51 IDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: OT: Doug Henning (Was Re: Wow Great Update on the Site) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >We have them over here, too. Quite a few people still aren't sure whether >or not they're a big Pythonesque prank, even after several years. No hoax (unless someone is VERY determined); they ran in two elections here in Israel (come to think of it, compared to some other party platforms here, they seem almost rational). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:09:06 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: SoP - Stonewall >> For example, I'm sure that the main difference between Stonewall and other nations is that, although imperial law carries just as much force there as elsewhere (ie: mages have one set of laws, and everyone else has another); the difference is in enforcement. << Actually, that's more Greenspur. In Stonewall, unique in Alphatia, the same sets of laws apply to all - all cases are tried as if both parties (victim and accused) were Aristocrats. Other than that, what you described is correct (one still has to be an spellcaster to be an Aristocrat, but not as much of a big deal is made about it). But we digress. >> decided that fighter and thieves are just as deserving of respect as mages, and so are treated accordingly. << Right >> How might this work? Perhaps, if the bureaucracy forwards reports of trials to Sundsvall, the data is doctored so that it seems that Stonewall adheres more strongly to overall standards than it actually does, or the prestige of having the largest city (plus a competent, relatively well-trained and motivated army), dissuades others from making a fuss. << That's an interesting thought. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:06:55 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: SoP - Stonewall James wrote: >Actually, that's more Greenspur. I think you're right. I'll check DotE - d'you think it's in the player's or DM's guide? I know the player's guide says that Greenspur tolerates, whereas Stonewall "actually likes" fighters (I was checking it last night for a new player in my group - someone new to Mystara, btw! A convert, I hope...) >That's an interesting thought. Well, I think so. :-) I wonder how Stonewall has existed so long, if its traditions and way of life fly in the face of so many Alphatian assumptions - given that we know there is nothing stopping one kingdom from attacking/invading another.... I wonder if Mylertendalism could spread throughout the floating continent.... Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97 Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon Carnifex Loremaster au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:19:17 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Having been on this list for a very long time (not quite the very beginning, but close -- I think my first post is around archive 13 or something like that. But I digress) I think its safe to say that I have no recollection of this topic ever coming up before. Now I do have to admit that I don't always follow all the threads, but unless someone else who knows where such a conversation appears in the archive speaks up, I think we can declare this PARTY TIME! ;-) Jenni << I'll bring the beer! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:08:59 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Building children of Immortals on point basis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wizards Shopper wrote: > >Ability scores: Ability scores are generated according to point system = >that has already been revealed on Eric Noah's site. For children of >Immortal= s, increase default score by +3 and maximum score by +6 before >applying any= other adjustments based on allocations from Immortal >heritage. Not sure what you mean by "default" and "maximum" scores here. I presume = that Maximum means that ability scores for Immortal Children can reach up to 2= 4? Or do these refer to 2nd Edition and OD&D games? >Ability score improvements: Each point allocated to an ability score >improves it by +1d6. Under a point allocation scheme that increases bas= e >score by +3 and maximum score by +6. = Again, I'm not sure I follow here as far as the +3/+6 thing goes. In any = case, I think +1d6 per point is a bit high. I'd suggest a point for point syste= m (1 point gets 1 point of ability score), or (possibly) a 1 point per 2 point= system (1 point gets 2 points of ability score). >Virtual immortality: = This is a pretty powerful ability for only +6 points, especially when you= consider that to have a permanent 9th level non-attack spell ability will= cost you +9 points. Remember that Exalted status allows creatures to injure Immortals with their magic and weapons (ie, not do the minimum damage tha= t mortals do). I'd say this ability should cost at least 10 points, if not more. >Magic resistance: Each 5% of magic resistance costs +1 point, to a >maximum of +5. Hmmm... that's 25% magic resistance. Why not just spend +6 points for a permanent Anti-Magic Shell spell ability? >Tough skin: Each +1 bonus to AC (to a maximum of +2) costs +1 point, >to a maximum of +2 (base AC 8). Again, why not spend +1 point for a permanent Shield spell ability. Or do= the spell abilities only work like the spell (ie, duration, range, etc remain= the same, and can only be used a certain number of times per day?) >Immortal Foe: Children of Immortals sometimes inherit their Immortal >parent's foes. The maximum number of foes equals number of Immortal >parents, and each such foe costs -2 Immortal heritage points (which are >thus freed up for expenditure for various goodies). = In other words, 1 or 2. Maybe you should have it relate to the Immortal parent(s) levels, instead? Ixion is going to have more foes (and more dea= dly foes) than would say, Benekander. I'd say that an Ixion type of foe is li= kely to make someone's life more difficult, and might warrant an extra point o= r two than one of Benny's enemies. >For those of you who have copies of WotI and/or have definite ideas abou= t >the abilities of demigods: Have I left out anything of importance? Well, aside from suggesting that children of the Immortals aren't necessa= rily demigods (I'd say that ranking is more in line with the Initiates), no ot= her real suggestions at the moment. If you have a copy of HWQ1: The Milenian Sceptre, you might want to compare your notes to the daughter of Nyx in t= hat module, and see how this template might be applied to her. If not, let me know, and I'll take a look see, and might have some other thoughts for you. Actually, offhand, maybe points could be spent on magical items? A lot of= heroic mythical characters had one or two (Hercules' mace for one). = ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:19 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: SoP - Stonewall Mystara wrote: > Geoff wrote: >> I'll check DotE - d'you think it's in the player's or DM's guide? << DM's >> I was checking it last night for a new player in my group - someone new to Mystara, btw! A convert, I hope... << Ahh, Excellent. . . >> Well, I think so. :-) I wonder how Stonewall has existed so long, if its traditions and way of life fly in the face of so many Alphatian assumptions - given that we know there is nothing stopping one kingdom from attacking/invading another.... <, Well, for one thing, because there's a large stone wall (the Kerothar Mountain Range) between it and the rest of Alphatia. For the other thing the rest (99.2% by area) probably doesn't mind "quarantining" such persons off in an isolated area, where they can serve Alphatia without infecting the rest of the nation with their outlandish beliefs. >> I wonder if Mylertendalism could spread throughout the floating continent....<< Mylertendalism probably has - the Player's Guide "history" section seems to indicate it's pervaded much of Alphatia (I mean, not like it's probably universal, but it's an outlook that's present and fairly strong throughout Alphatia as a whole, not just in Haven). Heck, just look at the history of the Alatian Islands (see that section in the DM Sourcebook). If Mylertendalism spread that far, then it's probably affected the entire mainland. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:25:16 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > But that trait must be present somewhere in the culture at the time it > is moved to the Hollow World. Anything not present somewhere in the > culture at that time cannot be acquired unless it is trivially "similar" to > something already there. > Kingdom of Nithia disagrees with you. Check the creation of the city of Hapta. Don't you just love 'canon' when it agrees with your point of view? << I don't think so. Check out the creation of Hapta again. The Tanagoro's patron (IIRC Rathanos) actually lifted the SoP from the people of Hapta. This removed their cultural bias, so they were suceptable to being assimilated just as a culture on the outer world would be. The Nithians assimilated them. Now if we go with Kaviyd's "marking theory", then this raises an interesting point. Rathanos obviously unmarked the Haptan Tanagoro, and allowed them to be assimilated by the Nithians. But does this mean the the Haptans have been "re-marked" as Nithians, or that they are still not under the effects of the SoP? What do you think? ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:31:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Campaign detail question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Not most of Ylaraum, but they still have the Duchy of Tel Akbir, which > >is predominately Alasiyan, so it could easily have come from there. > > Where's that? One of its islands? (Just wondering how Nicodemus got there > and back.) > > BEAU The Duchy of Tel Akbir is on the east coast of the Thyatian mainland. If you haven't got a map of Thyatis, I'd suggest visiting Thibault Sarlat's site at http://www.mystara.com.bi which is map heaven. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:41:30 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation discussion] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Calvin wrote: > >Now if we go with Kaviyd's "marking theory", then this raises an >intere= sting point. >Rathanos obviously unmarked the Haptan Tanagoro, and allowed them to be >assimilated by the Nithians. But does this mean the the Haptans have >b= een "re-marked" as Nithians, or that they are still not under the >effects of= the SoP? What do you think? I'd say that they've been "re-marked" as Nithians, but this in itself rai= ses some interesting questions. Firstly, it means that the Immortals, at leas= t, can cause changes to a culture within the HW by relaxing the SoP slightly= (the marking and remarking process). This actually seems borne out by certain = other cases- the introduction of the Immortals Zargos and Matera into Milenian culture (Zargos and Matera weren't present on the Outer World). Secondly, it means that, potentially, the elements introduced can grow to= become dominant within the original culture. In this case, the Haptans, n= ow that they are Nithians, could conceivably come to dominate the Nithian culture, whereby a majority of the population would be the Tanagoro desce= nded Haptans, and a minority would be Oltec descended Nithians. I think we should rename the SoP the Algorithm of Preservation. I really = am enjoying this concept. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:56:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Building children of Immortals on point basis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Magic resistance: Each 5% of magic resistance costs +1 point, to a >maximum of +5. Hmmm... that's 25% magic resistance. Why not just spend +6 points for a permanent Anti-Magic Shell spell ability? Well, that would get you too. Magic resistance only operates against incoming hostile magic, it doesnt prevent you from using your own magical powers, or from using magic items and such. >Tough skin: Each +1 bonus to AC (to a maximum of +2) costs +1 point, >to a maximum of +2 (base AC 8). Again, why not spend +1 point for a permanent Shield spell ability. Or do the spell abilities only work like the spell (ie, duration, range, etc remain the same, and can only be used a certain number of times per day?) I assume the +2 is cumulative with everything, whereas Shield would not be. Well, aside from suggesting that children of the Immortals aren't necessarily demigods (I'd say that ranking is more in line with the Initiates), no other real suggestions at the moment. If you have a copy of HWQ1: The Milenian Sceptre, you might want to compare your notes to the daughter of Nyx in that module, and see how this template might be applied to her. I have to say, I wasn't impressed with Vix. Given that she was meant to be a sort of anti-Hercules or something, she was pretty wussy. I mean, the only "ability" she had was the fact that she had black skin. Not much for being the daughter of a Hierarch. I know the adventure was aimed at low levels and so a real Herculean character was appropriate, but even so. I ran that adventure for around level 9, and amped Vix a bit. I gave her, in the end... a) darkness 15' radius at will b) the ability to see through magical darkness as if it was broad daylight c) shadow walk at will d) damn fine ability scores (this was AD&D, and I can't remember exactly how high, but I seem to recall a couple of 20-22s in there). I figured the darkness effects were appropriate for a daughter of Nyx - the ability scores simply because I wanted to use her as a classical Greek style child of a god (ie, hard). She survived the PCs as well.... hmm, may have to use her again :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:07:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't think so. Check out the creation of Hapta again. The Tanagoro's patron (IIRC > Rathanos) actually lifted the SoP from the people of Hapta. This removed their cultural > bias, so they were suceptable to being assimilated just as a culture on the outer world > would be. The Nithians assimilated them. > Since the Tanagoro who became citizens are explicitly stated as adding new crops and know-how to Nithia, as well as Tanagoro Druidic magic. Plus the fact that many warriors go there to learn Tanagorese khopesh, spear, and javelin techniques. I still think I'm right. > Now if we go with Kaviyd's "marking theory", then this raises an interesting point. > Rathanos obviously unmarked the Haptan Tanagoro, and allowed them to be assimilated by > the Nithians. But does this mean the the Haptans have been "re-marked" as Nithians, or > that they are still not under the effects of the SoP? What do you think? > I'd say that they were re-marked as Nithians else they wouldn't be found all over the Kingdom accepted as citizens. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:21:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Spell of Preservation discussion] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd say that they've been "re-marked" as Nithians, but this in itself raises some interesting questions. Firstly, it means that the Immortals, at least, can cause changes to a culture within the HW by relaxing the SoP slightly (the marking and remarking process). This actually seems borne out by certain other cases- the introduction of the Immortals Zargos and Matera into Milenian culture (Zargos and Matera weren't present on the Outer World). Then again a case could be made for Immortals just answering the call of a few individuals unsatisfied with their lot under the present order. You can almost always find someone to support any point of view in a large culture, so it could be that this was already within the culture when it entered the HW. The Immortals in question are just amplifying it's effects upon the culture as a whole, something allowed by the SoP. Secondly, it means that, potentially, the elements introduced can grow to become dominant within the original culture. In this case, the Haptans, now that they are Nithians, could conceivably come to dominate the Nithian culture, whereby a majority of the population would be the Tanagoro descended Haptans, and a minority would be Oltec descended Nithians. Well within the 'rules' for this to happen IMO. As far as wether this is within the spirit in which the SoP was intended well that's gotta be an individual judgement call. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:40:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > I don't think so. Check out the creation of Hapta again. The Tanagoro's patron (IIRC > Rathanos) actually lifted the SoP from the people of Hapta. This removed their cultural > bias, so they were suceptable to being assimilated just as a culture on the outer world > would be. The Nithians assimilated them. > Since the Tanagoro who became citizens are explicitly stated as adding new crops and know-how to Nithia, as well as Tanagoro Druidic magic. << This depends on what exactly the SoP protects against. If the Haptans grow new crops and trade these crops throughout the Nithian empire, will the SoP prevent Nithians from eating these new crops? I don't think so. If the Haptans started to introduce new farming techniques, then I think that the SoP would intervene. That the Haptans use Druidic magic shouldn't make a diference. IIRC the Tanagoro use druidic magic, and the Haptans were Tanagoro. When Rathanos lifted the SoP from them, he in essence allowed the creation of a "new culture," something which is allowed for under the SoP. IMO I don't think that they could ever be marked as 'true Nithians', although they could be marked as a new culture very similar to that of the Nithians. As for them 'adding' to Nithia (the Empire), this is also ok under the SoP. What they can't do is add to Nithian culture. I think there is a distinction (although it may be a rather fine one) between these two things. >>Plus the fact that many warriors go there to learn Tanagorese khopesh, spear, and javelin techniques. I still think I'm right. << But all of these weapons are allowed to Nithians in their cultural bias. Does it matter what technique they use? Or are khopesh techniques and styles something that is allowed to fluctuate under the SoP (much akin to Azcan religious practices)? >> > Now if we go with Kaviyd's "marking theory", then this raises an interesting point. > Rathanos obviously unmarked the Haptan Tanagoro, and allowed them to be assimilated by > the Nithians. But does this mean the the Haptans have been "re-marked" as Nithians, or > that they are still not under the effects of the SoP? What do you think? > I'd say that they were re-marked as Nithians else they wouldn't be found all over the Kingdom accepted as citizens. << Hmmm...I brought up that question, but the more I think about it, the more I think that they couldn't be marked as "Nithians." Perhaps they could be marked (and thereafter put back under the protection of the SoP), but whatever they were allowed to evolve into while not under the SoP (although it may be similar to the Nithians) is not Nithians. As for being accepted as Nithian ciizens, the SoP would not prevent this. As long as they pay their tributes to Pharaoh, then what cause is there to despise them? ===== Rule #65. If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:51:56 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: [Re: [MYSTARA] Building children of Immortals on point basis] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob wrote: > >>Hmmm... that's 25% magic resistance. Why not just spend +6 points for a= >>permanent Anti-Magic Shell spell ability? > >Well, that would get you too. Magic resistance only operates against >incoming hostile magic, it doesnt prevent you from using your own magica= l >powers, or from using magic items and such. True, in AD&D. In D&D (and the Immortals rules) A-M affects not only the incoming magic, but it also affects Immortal magic as well. Immortals mus= t lower their AM in order to cast spells and spell effects. >>Again, why not spend +1 point for a permanent Shield spell ability. Or = >>do the spell abilities only work like the spell (ie, duration, range, >>etc remain the same, and can only be used a certain number of times per >>day= ?) > >I assume the +2 is cumulative with everything, whereas Shield would not = >be. Good point. Still, the point I was really trying to make is that I think = the spell abilities thing doesn't work just as a catch-all. Why not spend 5 o= r 6 points for a permanent Stoneskin ability? I think that the spell ability = thing needs to be defined more explicitly (ie, exactly what the spell ability w= ill get you, duration, range, etc.) [Points about Vix snipped] I'd forgotten that they didn't really give her anything. Just made her an= Avenger (IIRC), and some magical weapons. Your version definitely sounds = a bit more nasty. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=3D1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:55:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for being accepted as Nithian ciizens, the SoP would not prevent this. As long as > they pay their tributes to Pharaoh, then what cause is there to despise them? > The oldest cause of all, being different. Nithians do things a certain way, to do it another way is not being a Nithian. That's what Cultural Bias is all about. Same goes for how they fight and farm the land, that's all to do with their culture. The Haptans have to become Nithians or the SoP would curtail all of the advances they brought very quickly. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:59:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Building children of Immortals on point basis] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True, in AD&D. In D&D (and the Immortals rules) A-M affects not only the incoming magic, but it also affects Immortal magic as well. Immortals must lower their AM in order to cast spells and spell effects. Depends on whether you're using the Gold Box or Book 1 of WotI. The above is the Gold Box, WotI You can leave it up It protects against Hostile. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:57:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: [Re: [MYSTARA] Building children of Immortals on point basis] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Well, that would get you too. Magic resistance only operates against >incoming hostile magic, it doesnt prevent you from using your own magical >powers, or from using magic items and such. True, in AD&D. In D&D (and the Immortals rules) A-M affects not only the incoming magic, but it also affects Immortal magic as well. Immortals must lower their AM in order to cast spells and spell effects. Same as in AD&D actually. The point is - they can lower it. A permanent AM shell presumably could not be. Good point. Still, the point I was really trying to make is that I think the spell abilities thing doesn't work just as a catch-all. Why not spend 5 or 6 points for a permanent Stoneskin ability? I think that the spell ability thing needs to be defined more explicitly (ie, exactly what the spell ability will get you, duration, range, etc.) Stoneskin absorbs a few hits then dissipates. It already is permanent effectively, it lasts until it takes those hits. Plus, by the by, Stoneskin doesnt protect against wrestling, constriction and the like, so it doesnt offer total invulnerability - merely immunity to weapons, basically. [Points about Vix snipped] I'd forgotten that they didn't really give her anything. Just made her an Avenger (IIRC), and some magical weapons. Your version definitely sounds a bit more nasty. Well, like I said, it was a low level adventure. She was level 9, and the PCs around 3-4, so thats impressive enough. But I would have rather she be lower level but have more juicy distinctive abilities personally. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:36:33 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Re: Big Party Problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max, I have had two similar problems in my campaigns. Here's how I handled the two cases: #1: Two of the three characters acted really stupid and insulted some citizens of Glantri City and evtually assaulted a few and caused some moderate vandalism at an apartment complex while making crazy claims (they were in a run-down apartment building knocking on doors and demanding the tennets to tell them in which apartment they could find the Princess in.....). Eventually the constabulary showed up to not only to arrest them for assault & Vandalism but also 'take care of the crazy people'. After a few tense moments in the stairwell where the constabulary outnumbered them and had them bakced up against a iron gate (the constabulary were armed with various wands if I remember correctly) they eventually decided (wisely) to surrender rather than try to fight. And so they were thrown in a Glantrian Jail. The Thief character was still on the outside however. The fighter decided to try to be inventive and forgetting that this was a country of mages, said he wanted to 'chant as if he was casting a spell'. The magic mouth alarm of course went off in the cell and the guards came rushing in pointing there wands at the mage And almost fired on the mage before they realised that it was the 'crazy' warrior 'pretending' to be casting a spell. Eventually the constabulary decided to ship them off to the lunny bin (They did more things after that and witnesses identified them as the ones who shouted into a very large crowd "HelllLLLLLLLLOOOOoooo? is anybody here?") While the prison ship was traveling down the canals from the jail out of the city (to the lunny bin) the thief jumped on top of it (or maybe he swam to it, don't remember now) and once they were out of the city the thief broke them out (I made the thief really role play it though) and they had to make a clandestine dash out of Glantri. #2: This one was in Karameikos, I forget which town/city and how they got there but they were in jail about to start there trial and I decided to roll with it and we actually acted out the trial using the info in the K:KoA book. I took them each aside seperately and discussed the case as If I (the DM) was their respective lawyers and then went through the actual court cases (they were tried seperately). I think they lost the cases and got something like a 6 month sentence for one and a 30,000gp fine for the other (He was allowed to make payments over the course of several years) and despite that the players lost, they both seemed to have had a lot fun role-playing the trial. Hope these might give you some idea's. Greg Weatherup Gecko GWxup@excite.com http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/spock/67/index.html http://members.fortuencity.com/gecko_g _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:08:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: SoP - Stonewall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:19 Emperor Porphyrogenitus wrote: >> Geoff wrote: >>> I'll check DotE - d'you think it's in the player's or DM's guide? << > >DM's > James is right. DM's sourcebook, p.46 under 'Regulations' for Stonewall, to be precise. (snip) > >>> Well, I think so. :-) I wonder how Stonewall has existed so long, if its traditions and way of life fly in the face of so many Alphatian >assumptions - given that we know there is nothing stopping one kingdom >from attacking/invading another.... <, > >Well, for one thing, because there's a large stone wall (the Kerothar Mountain Range) between it and the rest of Alphatia. For the other thing the rest (99.2% by area) probably doesn't mind "quarantining" such persons off in an isolated area, where they can serve Alphatia without infecting the rest of the nation with their outlandish beliefs. > Pardon me, but that seems an unreasonably harsh comment on Alphatian society. I see nothing in DotE to suggest that this is how other Alphatians see Stonewall or Draco. They may not agree with the laws there and not like their traits (but I expect the same could be said for Stoutfellow or even Blackheart, for that matter), but I see nothing to suggest that they'd actually want to 'quarrantine' Stonewall to prevent it from 'infecting' Alphatia. If this is your opinion, then fine. But if this is an observation, then please point to the source. Unless, of course, those nasty Alphatian wizards actually conjured up the Kerothar mountains just to seal off Stonewall (hmm, mages conjuring up mountains... Makes me think of Magic: The Gathering - yuck!) ;) (snip rest) BTW, all this talk of Stonewall and Draco makes me think: What do you call an inhabitant of Draco? Perhaps a Draconian ? :) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Greg Weatherup Subject: Fwd: The Death of Vanserie Vlaardoen XI, Act I scene V Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Anonomous author sent this to me a few days ago, but I am a little behind on emails so here it is today... Greg Weatherup intermediary ----- Original Message ----- Message-ID: CENSORED Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 CENSORED From: CENSORED > Subject: The Death of Vanserie Vlaardoen XI, Act I scene V > To: gwxup@excite.com > > Act I, > scene V > just outside Linden > Juliana Vlaardoen > two gentlemen > the priest > his assistant > two guards > crowd > Vanserie Vlaardoen XI(outside the scene) > > VOICE OF VANSERIE(always awful): stay silent, > daughter. I want to enjoy myself...it's not common for > me in this period...I want to speak with this 'mighty' > and 'holy' man. Tell me, brave man, what are you > doing? Why you are the only one my guards didn't keep > far from this tower? > > PRIEST: I'm here Vanserie to heal you and open your > eyes in front of the true power of my Gods, this power > led me here... > > VOICE OF VANSERIE: Power could be the best and the > worst reward on Mystara. I always looked for power, > since I, for the first time many years ago, casted a > minor spell. > I always go ahead. looking for more power and now I'm > near to control a new power, one which could free me > from this decaying body that too much scares you... > > PRIEST: but this power cannot save you, it's an empty > power Vanserie...only kindness of Powers can bring you > new life... > > VOICE(always awful but with a bit of enjoying): > Powers' kindness...child, you're like a child during > the night when they are told him nice tales by his > parents to put him in bed and force him to > sleep...SLEEP IGNORANT!...SLEEP CHILD!...SLEEP for you > can't keep your eyes open,so sleep...weak minds always > prefer not to have difficult thoughts, it's better for > them to easy answers even if they often embrace fake > truths. Powers aren't kind. aren't better than us, > they are false, evil, selfish exactly like us. We must > thank them if now a war has erupted, if the meteor > fell down...if I'm deadly ill... > > PRIEST: I can't believe in your words. They are full > of eresy and blasphemy...I must stop it. I'll lay my > hands on you and everything will be in order. > > VOICE: yes, come my dear, touch me if you dare. But > don'tturst your Power, trust in your spirit's power, > if it's enough strong you, maybe, success. > > PRIEST: Stay silent, font of evil(and walk with his > hands raised and his assistant nex to him but suddenly > they crumble to dust) > > the crowd flees crying > > 1stGENT: what a demonstration of magical skill. > > JULIANA: FATHER! NO! what you have done? > > VOICE: They needn't live, daughter.They were both dead > long time ago when they chose a false way of life and > now it's the turn of the 2 guards. > > 1st GUARD (crying): save us beloved Prince > > 2nd GUARD (also crying): we always served you well > > VOICE: you also chose the wrong way, the way of the > weaks, the way of the half-men. Death is probably too > honorauble for you...die > > also the 2 guards are disintegrated > > JULIANA: Father, you are changed, you were,'t never so > evil and without feelings. You never killed an > innocent. Your new studies are bringing you towards > madness, stop them...I ask you this...maybe there's > still a hope for you... > > VOICE: I left every hope when I began these studies. > Now my hope is to make you a good ruler, for I'm going > to die, as your mother. At the beginning is hard > daughter, but you must prevail over your feelings... > I must return into my laboratory...farewell... > > Juliana alone in the centre of the stage, the two > gentlemen in front of Linden anon. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: SoP - Stonewall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Pardon me, but that seems an unreasonably harsh comment on Alphatian society. But not an inaccurate one. >> They may not agree with the laws there and not like their traits << Right. In which case they wouldn't want "their traits" spreading, would they? Far cry from how, say, Mylertendalism was greeted. Anyhow, "quarantine" was put in quotes like that for a reason, because it does overstate things a bit for effect (I'm *NOT* saying there is a literal quarantine or that folks from Stonewall are not allowed to travel to the rest of Alphatia. The greeting they get there if they start spouting off about their beliefs is probably about the same sort of "welcome" that, say, I recieve among certain circles when I start spouting off about mine, though. . .well, ok - perhaps they aren't treated *quite* that bad; I doubt they're ostracized, for instance.) >> Unless, of course, those nasty Alphatian wizards actually conjured up the Kerothar mountains just to seal off Stonewall << The mountains may have always existed, but they don't call the place "Stonewall" for nothing - there is a figurative "stone wall" between them and the rest of Alphatia, and I'd bet the folks living on both sides of it like it that way. Otherwise it wouldn't be "Stonewall". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:24:24 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Building children of Immortals on point basis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-19 12:10:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << >Ability scores: Ability scores are generated according to point system >that has already been revealed on Eric Noah's site. For children of >Immortals, increase default score by +3 and maximum score by +6 before >applying any other adjustments based on allocations from Immortal >heritage. Not sure what you mean by "default" and "maximum" scores here. I presume that Maximum means that ability scores for Immortal Children can reach up to 24? Or do these refer to 2nd Edition and OD&D games?>> I was actually trying to move forward to 3E -- the system described could be made to work with OD&D or 3E, but that upper limit of 25 in 2E keeps the system from working too well there. Basically, what this part involves is that children of Immortals by default roll 6d6 for one ability score and 4d6 for the others. I made the rolls of 4d6 "default" abilities and let the +2d6 for one ability score be an "option" that could be taken. Now as I recall, under the point system described on Eric Noah's site, all standard characters begin with a base of 8 points in each ability score and have 28 points to spend in additions to that base score, with the cost escalating as you approach 18. Children of Immortals would start with a base score of 11, and pay for improvements above that level -- thus, a score of 21 would cost the same for such a character as a score of 18 would for a more normal character. For scores higher than that, the cost difference between 17 and 18 (20 and 21 for basic child of Immortal) would be paid for each additional point up to maximum (which would be 24 if no additional dice are allocated). <<>Ability score improvements: Each point allocated to an ability score >improves it by +1d6. Under a point allocation scheme that increases base >score by +3 and maximum score by +6. Again, I'm not sure I follow here as far as the +3/+6 thing goes. In any case, I think +1d6 per point is a bit high. I'd suggest a point for point system (1 point gets 1 point of ability score), or (possibly) a 1 point per 2 point system (1 point gets 2 points of ability score).>> Here I am following the system in WotI, although I did forget to set any upper limits. Since the highest possible ability score roll under that system is 6d6, we should not let ability score maximum exceed twice that of a normal mortal of the same race. Thus, if two points are spent on this ability, that would be equivalent to an ability score roll of 6d6, for a base score of 17 and a maximum of 36 (which would still be nearly impossible to reach because of the point cost involved). Additional points would further increase the base score but leave the maximum unaffected in most cases. Of course, a comparison of the bonus table in WotI with what is rumored of the 3E rules suggests that some slight scaling down might be in order. In WotI, a being with a strength of 36 has a bonus of +8 to hit and damage -- and that appears to be equivalent to 26-27 under 3E rules. For those rules, we should perhaps add d4s rather than d6s to the base roll, giving +2 to base score and +4 to maximum score per extra d4. <<>Virtual immortality: This is a pretty powerful ability for only +6 points, especially when you consider that to have a permanent 9th level non-attack spell ability will cost you +9 points. Remember that Exalted status allows creatures to injure Immortals with their magic and weapons (ie, not do the minimum damage that mortals do). I'd say this ability should cost at least 10 points, if not more.>> You do have a point, although the practical value of this ability is fairly limited in campaigns set on the Prime Plane. One alternative to increasing the cost might be to have a penalty kick in if the character ever leaves the Prime Plane -- maybe doing so attracts the attention of the Immortals, some of whom react with hostility. A short time after his first trip off the Prime Plane, a character who is "virtually Immortal" is subjected to a devastating attack that is potentially fatal. If that attack kills him, the attacking Immortal takes steps to ensure that he remains forever dead -- but if he survives then he has at least one more foe than he did before. In addition, even if he does not anger the Immortals by leaving the Prime Plane, a "virtually Immortal" character should be at a severe disadvantage in questing for true Immortality. <<>Magic resistance: Each 5% of magic resistance costs +1 point, to a >maximum of +5. Hmmm... that's 25% magic resistance. Why not just spend +6 points for a permanent Anti-Magic Shell spell ability?>> Good point. That Anti-Magic shell is a bit too powerful as a permanent ability, and I am sure that there are other spells that I have failed to consider for this purpose. Of course, if the protection from that spell effect cannot be dropped by the child of an Immortal, then it could certainly prove to be a very mixed blessing if allowed. <<>Tough skin: Each +1 bonus to AC (to a maximum of +2) costs +1 point, >to a maximum of +2 (base AC 8). Again, why not spend +1 point for a permanent Shield spell ability. Or do the spell abilities only work like the spell (ie, duration, range, etc remain the same, and can only be used a certain number of times per day?)>> Thank you, you found something else I hadn't thought of. The version of the spell in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia would certainly be more powerful than the simpler "tough skin", with a very few exceptions. (Example: A permanently "Shielded" character would have no AC bonus at all on the Day of Dread, while a character with "tough skin" would retain his bonus.) The 2E version of the "Shield" spell would provide superior protection from the front but no protection from behind. I am not sure how 3E will handle it, and more importantly I am unsure about the details of "stacking" AC bonuses, which would affect such things as the relative merits of a small mundane AC bonus vs. a larger magical AC bonus. <<>Immortal Foe: Children of Immortals sometimes inherit their Immortal >parent's foes. The maximum number of foes equals number of Immortal >parents, and each such foe costs -2 Immortal heritage points (which are >thus freed up for expenditure for various goodies). In other words, 1 or 2. Maybe you should have it relate to the Immortal parent(s) levels, instead? Ixion is going to have more foes (and more deadly foes) than would say, Benekander. I'd say that an Ixion type of foe is likely to make someone's life more difficult, and might warrant an extra point or two than one of Benny's enemies.>> Or we could simply rule that the Immortal foe is at least as powerful as the Immortal parent. Again, this is a case where the exact power level of the Immortal is not important as long as the character remains on the Prime Plane. If the character begins his career in Ylaruam, for example, Al-Kalim (a mere Initiate!) would be a far more dangerous foe than the Hierarch Ixion. Needless to say, any character with one or more Immortal foes would be in far greater danger than other characters if he ever leaves the Prime Plane. << >For those of you who have copies of WotI and/or have definite ideas about >the abilities of demigods: Have I left out anything of importance? Well, aside from suggesting that children of the Immortals aren't necessarily demigods (I'd say that ranking is more in line with the Initiates), no other real suggestions at the moment. If you have a copy of HWQ1: The Milenian Sceptre, you might want to compare your notes to the daughter of Nyx in that module, and see how this template might be applied to her.>> It should work, as she was built from the system described in WotI and may have had the chance to gain a few levels of experience since beginning her career. But I will try to dig that module up and work out her point costs. She certainly has a powerful mother (Nyx), so that would give her a lot of points to spend. << If not, let me know, and I'll take a look see, and might have some other thoughts for you. Actually, offhand, maybe points could be spent on magical items? A lot of heroic mythical characters had one or two (Hercules' mace for one). >> I would probably award magical items on the same basis as for other newly created high level characters, since D&D characters of 5th level and above tend to have accumulated some magic items already. If an item is granted on the basis of points, I would make that item fairly weak but have it "bound" to the character somehow, perhaps in a way similar to the Immortal "Summon Weapon" ability. As for cost, how does +2 points per effective +1 of a "bound" weapon sound? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:24:29 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-19 1:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM writes: << Now if we go with Kaviyd's "marking theory", then this raises an interesting point. Rathanos obviously unmarked the Haptan Tanagoro, and allowed them to be assimilated by the Nithians. But does this mean the the Haptans have been "re- marked" as Nithians, or that they are still not under the effects of the SoP? What do you think? >> At this point they are culturally Nithian, so I would say that they were "unmarked" specifically so that they could be "re-marked" as Nithians. If they had been left unmarked, that state would be evident from a failure to fit into either their old or their new culture completely. At this point the Heldannic Knights might be the primary example of an "unmarked" culture in the Hollow World -- Vanya would not want them to be frozen by the Spell of Preservation because they are not in danger of extinction and (more importantly) she does not want them "preserved" -- she wants them to keep growing and developing. In fact, it has occurred to me that the bit about Alphatians as "policemen of the Hollow World" may not have been a boneheaded Immortal idea but an imperative resulting from what the Spell of Preservation would consider a major ongoing crisis. During WotI there were two large groups of thousands of unmarked people threatening many peoples of the Hollow World -- the Alphatians of Neatharum and the Heldannic Knights of Stonehaven and Oostdok. WIth no instructions to preserve either culture, the Spell of Preservation sensed them as intruders to be assimilated, driven out, or destroyed. Since none of the existing cultures were powerful enough to deal with the problem, the next advanced culture to be relocated to the Hollow World would have to deal with the problem. That "Week of No Magic" only increased the urgency of the problem. At that point all of the Immortals heard a telepathic scream for help that planted in them the desire to find a powerful culture endangered by the current war to relocate to the Hollow World. When Rad's Doomsday Weapon sank Alphatia, the choice of which culture to relocate became obvious, and because of the urgency that they felt from the Spell of Preservation, they attempted to save the entire continent and not just a few villages as they usually did. By doing this they overloaded the Spell of Preservation and created even more problems for it, but it attempted to work with what it had. After analyzing the newly placed culture, the Spell of Preservation was able to determine that it was very similar to one of the unmarked groups and had a history of hostility with the other group. Following the path of least resistance, the Spell of Preservation planted two imperatives in the minds of the Alphatians and made them strong enough to influence the thinking of the high level types who were otherwise unaffected by it. These imperatives, which they dutifully carried out, were "Assimilate the Alphatians of Neatharum" and "Eliminate the Heldannic Knights from the Hollow World". Of course, what the Alphatians will do next is an interesting problem, as the real threats have now been dealt with but flaws and bugs introduced by the weakening and corruption of the Spell of Preservation have left it with concerns that in a sentient being would be regarded as acute anxiety. The Spell of Preservation can detect that things are still not as they should be, but all obvious threats to the cultures of the Hollow World have been eliminated. Since it detects a threat but cannot determine its source, it will probably overreact to the next real threat that it discovers. In a message dated 2000-05-19 1:44:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cthulhudrew@USA.NET writes: << I think we should rename the SoP the Algorithm of Preservation. I really am enjoying this concept. :) >> And the really tricky part is to resist the temptation to give it a personality, as it must be a truly sophisticated spell/algorithm. I wonder, though -- did I go too far in that other message where I suggested that it might have the power to influence the thinking of the Immortals on an emotional level? The most interesting possibility in my opinion would be to say yes, the Spell of Immortality can influence the emotions of the Immortals to meet its needs -- and that may be one of its many flaws, especially if the Immortals don't wise up and realize what is really influencing their thinking. In a message dated 2000-05-19 2:08:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Since the Tanagoro who became citizens are explicitly stated as adding new crops and know-how to Nithia, as well as Tanagoro Druidic magic. Plus the fact that many warriors go there to learn Tanagorese khopesh, spear, and javelin techniques. I still think I'm right. >> Tanagorese or Haptan? If I am not mistaken, the khopesh is an exclusively Nithian weapon, so how could the Tanagoro have any special techniques with it? Still, this is an area that merits further investigation. Will I need any material beyond the Nithian HWR gazetteer, which I will soon be reviewing for the Mystara3E project? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:24:48 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-19 2:21:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Well within the 'rules' for this to happen IMO. As far as wether this is within the spirit in which the SoP was intended well that's gotta be an individual judgement call. >> At this point the Spell of Preservation has been stressed well beyond anything that its creators envisioned for it, given the effects of the magic drain from overuse of the Nucleus of the Spheres during WotI as well as the removal of millions of Alphatians (as opposed to the usual thousands of members of other cultures) to the Hollow World. At this point, the most amazing thing about the Spell of Preservation is that it has not collapsed completely. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:57:18 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Caroletti Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Stalker ha scritto: > On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 Caroletti wrote: > >By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, > >who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter > >we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which > >didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. > > > > LOL! Good point! > > I'm a little confused, though! I thought jabs at James were exclusively reserved for us blasted Alphatiaphiles - what gives ? ;) > > - The Stalker of Alphatia Only a Thyatian could beat a Thyatian. You others on the list had not the least chance of success. Iulius Sergius Scaevola the Cap ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:51:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Stonehaven and Oostdok. WIth no instructions to preserve either culture, > the Spell of Preservation sensed them as intruders to be assimilated, > driven out, or destroyed. Since none of the existing cultures were powerful > enough to deal with the problem, I dont know where this comes from, but I have to say I totally disagree with the last point. "none of the existing cultures powerful enough"... The way I see it the Hollow World nations are much more powerful than their outer world contemporaries. If you just compare the canon material on Nithia to the material on Alphatia, I have to say that Nithia would eat Alphatia alive. I think that Nithia is probably, aside from Blackmoor, the most powerful nation that Mystara has ever seen. Nithia helped the Alphatians out, so it is rumoured, so Alphatia might not even be here if Nithia hadn't aided them. IMO Nithia has the same role as Netheril in the FRealms - except that unlike Netheril Nithia has been preserved, and the SoP prevents them from expanding beyond their current borders (their magic doesnt work outside Nithia). (Incidentally, I think that is more or less exactly what should have happened to Alphatia. They should be able to freely cast magic on their floating continent, but be penalised when away from it). And Milenia is Thyatis on steroids. I mean, the place is based on ancient Greece (admittedly loosely), and IMO the Milenian (Spartan) Hoplite should be the ultimate Mystaran soldier. Certainly able to beat seven shades of **** out of the Heldannics. Plus the Milenians actually have some powerful magic as well, which you would kindof expect for a nation of Aristotle type philosophers - a few learned people. The HW certainly doesnt need any "policeman". What exactly did the Heldannics/Alphatians do? The Alphatians bagged a chunk of Neathar land - and then were mysteriously unable to expand despite their best efforts (the more they pushed, the more the Neathar pushed back - and the Neathar even mysteriously advanced to using dinosaurs as weapons, which smacks of SoP meddling to me to keep Neatharum in line). Oostdok is a tiny little island, whose culture was preserved anyway even when the place was occupied by the HKs. Milenia/Nithia are basically HW analogues of Thyatis/Alphatia, with the bonus that both nations are much more powerful than their OW brethren. To be honest one thing I dislike about the HW work in the MAs is that they seem to brushed aside as minor in the timeline. Milenia, Nithia and perhaps the Azca are the stars of the show. Alphatia is just one more star to add to the mix (and if anything, a bit of a sidelined one because a) they float, and b) Nithia is already the magical giant of the HW). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:29:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Alphatian Aeromancy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC24E.9D48E120" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC24E.9D48E120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable None of these are made by me, I'm afraid, most of them are actually TSR = spells from one place or another, but these are the spells I use as = Alphatian Air Magic IMC... Something to make Air Magic feared. This is the sort of stuff deployed = by the Air Wizards on the battlefields of WotI... Air Burst (Conjuration/Elemental Air) Level 1 Range : 60 yards Components : V,S Cast Time : 1 Duration : Instantaneous Area : 10' diameter Save : Special Upon uttering this spell the Air Wizard indicates a target point = within the spells range, which must be composed of the element of Air. = The element then releases the magical energy within it, creating a = concussive wave of force. This stuns all within the area of effect for = d4 rounds if a saving throw is failed, as well as inflicting 1d8 damage = in any case. =20 Fogbolt (Evocation/Elemental Air) Level 1 Range : 60 yards Components : V,S Cast Time : 1 Duration : 2d4 rounds Area : 1 creature Save : Special This spell creates a cloud of foglike vapour which hurtles toward = any one being chosen by the caster. The target is temporarily shrouded = in an aura of fog, incurring penalties of 3 to attack rolls, 2 to AC, = and saving throws involving dodging by 3. =20 Any fiery nonmagical sources on the target must save vs cold or be = extinguished. Any fire based spell cast by the target inflicts 1 less = point of damage per die than normal. The target is entitled to a saving throw, if he succeeds the fog = cloud persists for only one round. In hot, dry conditions the spell = only lasts d6 rounds. =20 Mist Magic (Evocation/Elemental Air/Water) Level 2 Range : 70 yards Components : V,S Cast Time : 2 Duration : 1d4 turns + 1 round per level Area : 20' + 10'/level radius Save : None This spell creates concealing mists, akin to the 1st level spell = Wall of Fog. Unlike the simpler version mist magic can, as chosen by = the caster, either move at a maximum of 20' per round, stay motionless = despite winds for 1 round per level of caster, or move with the caster. = The mists movement cannot be altered after the spell is cast. The = duration of the mist is halved in strong winds. The mist is thick and concealing, obscuring even infravision after = 2'. The mist is also extremely wet, dousing normal campfires or smaller = flames and extinguishing larger ones in 2-5 rounds. Any fire based attacks entering, passing through or cast within the = mists do 2 points less damage per die than normal. Items struck by fire = in the mist gain a +3 bonus to their saving throws. The mists can be = affected by hold vapour or dispel magic. Mistsight (Divination/Elemental Air) Level 2 Range : sight Components : V,S,M Casting Time : 2 Duration : 1 turn per level Area : the caster Save : None When this spell is cast the casters eyes turn a misty white colour, = enabling him to see perfectly through both normal and magical fog. The = casters vision is not enhanced in any other way, but fog and cloud = simply cannot be seen while the spell is in effect. This enables the = Air Wizard to hide in summoned fogbanks and see through them perfectly. The material component is a drop of water condensed from fog. Eagle Vision (Divination/Alteration) Level 3 Range : touch Components : V,S Casting Time : 1 round Duration : 8 hours Area : Creature touched Save : None This spell confers the ability to see as if the recipient were = wearing eyes of the eagle. This gives vision 100 times greater than = normal at ranges of 1' or more. Thus the target can see objects 2000' = away as clearly as if they were 20' away. Hold Vapour (Abjuration/Elemental Air) Level 3 Range : 10 yards/level Components : V,S Casting Time : 3 Duration : Special (max 1 hour) Area : 20' + 10'/level radius Save : Special This spell allows the wizard to halt and prevent the further = movement of any visible cloud or vapour within range. Such clouds = include breath weapons, cloudkill, fog cloud and incendiary cloud. = Other objects may freely pass through the held vapour. Creatures in = gaseous or airlike form may be contained, but gain a saving throw to = negate the spell each round. The wizard must concentrate to maintain = the magic. Sandstorm (Alteration/Elemental Air) Level 3 Range : 60 yards Components : V,S,M Duration : 1 round per level Casting Time : 5 Area : 50' radius Save : Special This spell creates a localised sandstorm from any convenient source = of sand, gravel or loose topsoil within the area of effect. The power = of the storm is determined by a d20 roll, with a +1 bonus per 3 caster = levels. d20 roll Type of Storm Effect 1-4 Light Obscured = vision, 3/4 movement rate 5-12 Moderate Obscured = vision, 1/2 movement rate, 1hp damage per round 13-17 Heavy As = moderate, but d4 damage per round 18-19 Turbulent Obscured = vision, 1/4 movement, 1d6 damage per round, save vs death with +2 bonus = or choke for an additional 1d10hp = damage 20+ Extreme As = turbulent, but save is unmodified, choke damage is 1d12, damage per = round is d8, save once or be blinded for d4 hours. Man sized and smaller flying creatures are downed a by a heavy storm, = large flyers by a turbulent storm, and gargantuan flyers by an extreme = storm. Spellcasting is impossible in any storm of at least moderate = intensity. The material component is a handful of fine sand. Reveal Invisible (Divination/Elemental Air) Level 3 Range : 10 yards/level Components : V,S Duration : 5 rounds per level Casting Time : 6 Area : 15' radius sphere The Reveal Invisible magic creates an invisible sphere. Yet = invisible beings within the sphere are clearly revealed to all = observers. The spell strips away invisibility, whether it is natural = ability or the result of magic. The spell has no effect on other = illusion magic, nor can it reveal those who are out of phase, = extraplanar or displaced creatures. =20 The caster can move the sphere 30' horizontally and 10' vertically = each round. Alternatively the spell may be centred on the caster. No saving throws are allowed against the spheres magic, although it = is destroyed instantly if the caster is killed or knocked out. If an = object or beings invisibility is continuous, it will return once the = being or object leaves the spheres magic. Wind Shadow (Alteration/Elemental Air) Level 3 Range : 10 yards Components : V,S,M Duration : 1d4 rounds + 1 round per level Casting Time : 4 Area : Special Save : None The recipient of a wind shadow takes on a translucent and almost = weightless form, gliding silently on a magical breeze. All items he = wears and carries are transformed with him, provided they are not = living. The breeze trails behind him, no scent or air current precedes = him to betray his movement. Nor does any footprint, track or magical = path remain to mark his passage. The magical breeze enables the recipient to float at his normal = movement rate, in whatever horizontal direction he wishes. Although he = typically hovers just off the ground he can also ascend or descend by = 70' per round by force of will. Against a strong magical or natural = gale, the recipient moves at half normal movement rate. The recipient retains his original armour class. His THAC0 remains = the same, save a -1 penalty when using missile weapons. He cannot speak = aloud while in transit, or cast spells. The spell may be ended by the = caster at will. The recipient has a 65% chance of sneaking by creatures not actively = looking for him. When passing by creatures who rely on a sense of smell = primarily, this rises to 75%. However, he is only 40% likely to evade = watchful, alert beings. If the recipient must pass through a well = guarded position such as an enclosure, bridge or doorway this drops to = 10%. =20 The material component is a piece of silk. =20 Damn, must go! I'll do levels 4-9 another time... Cheers Rob ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC24E.9D48E120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
None of these are made by me, I'm = afraid, most of=20 them are actually TSR spells from one place or another, but these = are the=20 spells I use as Alphatian Air Magic IMC...
Something to make Air Magic = feared.  This is=20 the sort of stuff deployed by the Air Wizards on the battlefields of=20 WotI...
 
Air Burst (Conjuration/Elemental = Air)
Level 1
Range : 60 yards
Components : V,S
Cast Time : 1
Duration : Instantaneous
Area : 10' diameter
Save : Special
    Upon uttering this = spell the Air=20 Wizard indicates a target point within the spells range, which must be = composed=20 of the element of Air.  The element then releases the magical = energy within=20 it, creating a concussive wave of force.  This stuns all within the = area of=20 effect for d4 rounds if a saving throw is failed, as well as inflicting = 1d8=20 damage in any case. 
 
Fogbolt (Evocation/Elemental = Air)
Level 1
Range  : 60 yards
Components : V,S
Cast Time : 1
Duration : 2d4 rounds
Area : 1 creature
Save : Special
    This spell creates a = cloud of=20 foglike vapour which hurtles toward any one being chosen by the = caster. =20 The target is temporarily shrouded in an aura of  fog, incurring penalties of 3 to attack rolls, 2 to AC, = and saving=20 throws involving dodging by 3. 
    Any fiery nonmagical = sources on=20 the target must save vs cold or be extinguished.  Any fire based = spell cast=20 by the target inflicts 1 less point of damage per die than = normal.
    The target is = entitled to a=20 saving throw, if he succeeds the fog cloud persists for only one = round.  In=20 hot, dry conditions the spell only lasts d6 rounds. 
 
Mist Magic (Evocation/Elemental=20 Air/Water)
Level 2
Range : 70 yards
Components : V,S
Cast Time : 2
Duration : 1d4 turns + 1 round per=20 level
Area : 20' + 10'/level = radius
Save : None
    This spell creates = concealing=20 mists, akin to the 1st level spell Wall of Fog.  Unlike the simpler = version=20 mist magic can, as chosen by the caster, either move at a maximum of 20' = per=20 round, stay motionless despite winds for 1 round per level of caster, or = move=20 with the caster.  The mists movement cannot be altered after the = spell is=20 cast.  The duration of the mist is halved in strong = winds.
    The mist is thick = and=20 concealing, obscuring even infravision after 2'.  The mist is also=20 extremely wet, dousing normal campfires or smaller flames and = extinguishing=20 larger ones in 2-5 rounds.
    Any fire based = attacks entering,=20 passing through or cast within the mists do 2 points less damage per die = than=20 normal.  Items struck by fire in the mist gain a +3 bonus to their = saving=20 throws.  The mists can be affected by hold vapour or dispel=20 magic.
 
Mistsight (Divination/Elemental = Air)
Level 2
Range : sight
Components : V,S,M
Casting Time : 2
Duration : 1 turn per = level
Area : the caster
Save : None
    When this spell is = cast the=20 casters eyes turn a misty white colour, enabling him to see perfectly = through=20 both normal and magical fog.  The casters vision is not enhanced in = any=20 other way, but fog and cloud simply cannot be seen while the spell is in = effect.  This enables the Air Wizard to hide in summoned fogbanks = and see=20 through them perfectly.
    The material = component is a drop=20 of water condensed from fog.
 
Eagle Vision = (Divination/Alteration)
Level 3
Range : touch
Components : V,S
Casting Time : 1 round
Duration : 8 hours
Area : Creature touched
Save : None
    This spell confers = the ability=20 to see as if the recipient were wearing eyes of the eagle.  This = gives=20 vision 100 times greater than normal at ranges of 1' or more.  Thus = the=20 target can see objects 2000' away as clearly as if they were 20'=20 away.
 
Hold Vapour (Abjuration/Elemental = Air)
Level 3
Range : 10 yards/level
Components : V,S
Casting Time : 3
Duration : Special (max 1 = hour)
Area : 20' + 10'/level = radius
Save : Special
    This spell allows = the wizard to=20 halt and prevent the further movement of any visible cloud or vapour = within=20 range.  Such clouds include breath weapons, cloudkill, fog cloud = and=20 incendiary cloud.  Other objects may freely pass through the held=20 vapour.  Creatures in gaseous or airlike form may be contained, but = gain a=20 saving throw to negate the spell each round.  The wizard must = concentrate=20 to maintain the magic.
 
Sandstorm (Alteration/Elemental = Air)
Level 3
Range : 60 yards
Components : V,S,M
Duration : 1 round per = level
Casting Time : 5
Area : 50' radius
Save : Special
    This spell creates a = localised=20 sandstorm from any convenient source of sand, gravel or loose topsoil = within the=20 area of effect.  The power of the storm is determined by a d20 = roll, with a=20 +1 bonus per 3 caster levels.
 
d20=20 roll           &nb= sp;       =20 Type of Storm           =20     Effect
1-4    =    =20             =    =20     Light        =    =20             =    =20 Obscured vision, 3/4 movement rate
5-12          =             &= nbsp;   Moderate   =20            =20       Obscured vision, 1/2 movement rate, 1hp = damage=20 per round
13-17    =    =20             =    =20 Heavy           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;   As=20 moderate, but d4 damage per round
18-19    =    =20             =    =20 Turbulent          &nbs= p;           Obscu= red=20 vision, 1/4 movement, 1d6 damage per round, save vs death with +2 bonus = or choke=20 for an additional 1d10hp
       =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             = damage
20+    =    =20             =    =20    =20 Extreme           =            As=20 turbulent, but save is unmodified, choke damage is 1d12, damage per = round is d8,=20 save once or be blinded for d4 hours.
 
Man sized and smaller flying creatures = are downed a=20 by a heavy storm, large flyers by a turbulent storm, and gargantuan = flyers by an=20 extreme storm.  Spellcasting is impossible in any storm of at least = moderate intensity.
    The material = component is a=20 handful of fine sand.
 
Reveal Invisible (Divination/Elemental=20 Air)
Level 3
Range : 10 yards/level
Components : V,S
Duration : 5 rounds per = level
Casting Time : 6
Area : 15' radius sphere
    The Reveal Invisible = magic=20 creates an invisible sphere.  Yet invisible beings within the = sphere are=20 clearly revealed to all observers.  The spell strips away = invisibility,=20 whether it is natural ability or the result of magic.  The spell = has no=20 effect on other illusion magic, nor can it reveal those who are out of = phase,=20 extraplanar or displaced creatures. 
    The caster can move = the sphere=20 30' horizontally and 10' vertically each round.  Alternatively the = spell=20 may be centred on the caster.
    No saving throws are = allowed=20 against the spheres magic, although it is destroyed instantly if the = caster is=20 killed or knocked out.  If an object or beings invisibility is = continuous,=20 it will return once the being or object leaves the spheres = magic.
 
 
Wind Shadow (Alteration/Elemental = Air)
Level 3
Range : 10 yards
Components : V,S,M
Duration : 1d4 rounds + 1 round per=20 level
Casting Time : 4
Area : Special
Save : None
    The recipient of a = wind shadow=20 takes on a translucent and almost weightless form, gliding silently on a = magical=20 breeze.  All items he wears and carries are transformed with him, = provided=20 they are not living.  The breeze trails behind him, no scent or air = current=20 precedes him to betray his movement.  Nor does any footprint, track = or=20 magical path remain to mark his passage.
    The magical breeze = enables the=20 recipient to float at his normal movement rate, in whatever horizontal = direction=20 he wishes.  Although he typically hovers just off the ground he can = also=20 ascend or descend by 70' per round by force of will.  Against a = strong=20 magical or natural gale, the recipient moves at half normal movement=20 rate.
    The recipient = retains his=20 original armour class.  His THAC0 remains the same, save a -1 = penalty when=20 using missile weapons.  He cannot speak aloud while in transit, or = cast=20 spells.  The spell may be ended by the caster at will.
    The recipient has a = 65% chance=20 of sneaking by creatures not actively looking for him.  When = passing by=20 creatures who rely on a sense of smell primarily, this rises to = 75%. =20 However, he is only 40% likely to evade watchful, alert beings.  If = the=20 recipient must pass through a well guarded position such as an = enclosure, bridge=20 or doorway this drops to 10%. 
    The material = component is a=20 piece of silk. 
 
 
Damn, must go!  I'll do levels 4-9 = another=20 time...
 
Cheers
 
Rob
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC24E.9D48E120-- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:40:20 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Thyatian background help needed MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm trying to fill in some more details about Nicodemus Majoh, the Wizard of Midwood. (Thanks for the advice about making his locked box be of Tel Akbir origins. That'll be a nice detail.) I want to fill in a bit of his life before he left Thyatis, following Stefan Karameikos to the Grand Duchy of Traladara. Glancing over the materials at dnd.starflung.com, I THINK I want him to have been raised in Kantrium and to have studied magic in Thyatis City at the Collegium Arcanum. But is there a standard motivation for the Thyatians who followed Karameikos out into the frontier? I was thinking that Nicodemus could have been disgusted with something, or have left Thyatis proper in response to some social changes in the country. Any thoughts? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:02:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000520094020.007a3cf0@10.1.1.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 20 May 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote: > But is there a standard motivation for the Thyatians who followed > Karameikos out into the frontier? I was thinking that Nicodemus could have > been disgusted with something, or have left Thyatis proper in response to > some social changes in the country. > Any thoughts? Nicodemus could have been a friend of Telemon and helped him establish the mages guild in Specularum? I dont know a standard motivation for people setling in Karameikos. Perhaps promises of new land or titles? H�vard Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Would it not be easier in this case for the government to dissolve the people and elect another?" -Bertolt Brecht ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Any thoughts? > Well, when did he go to Karameikos (what year)? Knowing that might help narrow it down. Note also that in the Tome of Mystara #3 there's an extensive Thyatian Timeline - look over the "Recent History" parts; that might help give you an idea or two. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:10:28 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed In-Reply-To: <200005201705.NAA17459@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:03 5/20/00 -0500, James Ruhland wrote: >Well, when did he go to Karameikos (what year)? >Knowing that might help narrow it down. He went the exact same year as Stefan and his group did. >Note also that in the Tome of Mystara #3 there's an extensive Thyatian >Timeline - look over the "Recent History" parts; that might help give you >an idea or two. Thanks, I'll do that. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:53:24 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > He went the exact same year as Stefan and his group did. > Ok, well he might be a friend of either Stefan, or perhaps this might work: Olivia Wallaran (later Olivia Karameikos) asked him to go with Stefan's group, get to know what Traladara was like and see how well or badly Stefan would do at ruling the place, and then send her periodic reports about things. Nicodemus Majoh's reports eventually helped convince Olivia to go ahead with marrying Stefan. Nicodemus liked Traladara (now "Karameikos") so much that he decided to stay and live in it as well - but over the years he gradually became his "own man", and is no longer a retainer of Olivia's or Stefan's, though he's loyal to both and has good relations with them and some contacts in the Royal Court. Or he could have come for the same reason many did: oportunity seekers, the chance to expropriate the Traladarans and become high-muckety-mucks in ways they couldn't at home in Thyatis. Or you might combine the both, sorts of things - give Nicodemus some healthy ambitions, and this becomes part of why he eventually became his own man and left off being a retainer of Olivia's/Stefans; came to admire the Traladaran's and their "simple" ways (though by now, having lived in the area for decades, he has more respect for the Traladarans perhaps than he did when he thought they were "simple folk"). Anyhow, just some initial ideas. Hope they might help. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Olivia Wallaran (later Olivia Karameikos) > Department of Minor Corrections: That should be "Olivia Promethian", not Wallaran. Sorry for any confusion. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion In-Reply-To: <001201bfc240$e87f1000$9240d4d4@rob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 May 2000, Rob wrote: > The way I see it the Hollow World nations are much more powerful than their > outer world contemporaries. If you just compare the canon material on > Nithia to the material on Alphatia, I have to say that Nithia would eat > Alphatia alive. I think that Nithia is probably, aside from Blackmoor, the No. Nithia's main schtick, Pyramid Power, is rather more useful for keeping your hair clean and your boots polished than for any sort of combat applications, especially outside of Nithia. Yes, they have those pyramid power projectors for combat, but I'd put my money on the Alphatian Air Fleet or the Retibius Air Force, or even the Heldannic Warbirds any day. Most of the really powerful Nithian magic has been stripped from them and kept from them, thanks to the Spell of Preservation. They have bronze age technology, while everyone on the surface is living in the iron age. There's a good reason iron replaced bronze for weapons...bronze sucks in comparison. Now, if the Nithians were able to arrange a set piece battle in the desert, on the ground, where their weapons and tactics are best adapted for combat, then they would tend to win the battle, given they know how to fight in the desert better than most Mystaran cultures (certainly better than the Alphatians, who couldn't manage to suppress a revolt by the Alaysians). But in any other terrain type, the Nithians would be turned into hamburger by most surface world forces. Especially if the Ylari somehow got down there, since they could counter the 'protected by desert that only we know how to fight in' advantage. > doesnt work outside Nithia). (Incidentally, I think that is more or less > exactly what should have happened to Alphatia. They should be able to > freely cast magic on their floating continent, but be penalised when away > from it). > Makes sense to me. > And Milenia is Thyatis on steroids. I mean, the place is based on ancient > Greece (admittedly loosely), and IMO the Milenian (Spartan) Hoplite should > be the ultimate Mystaran soldier. Certainly able to beat seven shades of Simply put, the Milenians can't be up to Spartan standards, because the Spartans only sustained them by abandoning every aspect of life except athletics and war. They weren't just professional soldiers, they were soldiers for life. The Milenians don't live like that and wouldn't want to. But even the Spartans got stomped flat by the Thebans once the Thebans came up with the right military tactic. The Romans had about as much trouble dealing with Sparta as most of us have dealing with flies. [Though to be fair, Spartan culture had largely degenerated by that point] > **** out of the Heldannics. Plus the Milenians actually have some powerful > magic as well, which you would kindof expect for a nation of Aristotle type > philosophers - a few learned people. > Simply put, the Romans kicked Greece's ass. The Thyatians are the Romans to Milenia's Greece. Again, Iron vs. Bronze equals dead Bronze age people, all other things being equal. Given Thyatis has 250 36th level wizards and many, many more lower level ones, the Milenians wouldn't have any military advantage from magic either. Unlike the Milenians, the Thyatians have refined their military tactics past those of the thousand year out of date Milenians. It's like imagining Basil the Bulgar Slayer (aka Basil II of Byzantium) with his 10th-11th century Byzantine army doing battle with Alexander the Great and his 4th century BC Macedonian forces. Simply put, Alexander is going to get crushed. Everything the Milenians can do on the battlefield, the Thyatians can do better, with better equipment. Thyatis stomps Milenia flat. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 17:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Nithia's main schtick, Pyramid Power, is rather more useful for keeping your hair clean and your boots polished than for any sort of combat applications, especially outside of Nithia. Yes, they have those pyramid power projectors for combat, but I'd put my money on the Alphatian Air Fleet or the Retibius Air Force, or even the Heldannic Warbirds any day. < < Well, they *do* have some pretty awesome weapons, really - Nithian "City-Buster" barges have weapons with a range of two miles (much greater than anything in the arsenal of any other Mystaran nation - not even the exceptionally long-ranged "Ak-Ak" guns of Seraine have anything near that range) and good firepower. Of course, in theory they can be negated because they rely upon the sun. But the Nithians will use weather control magics if they need to as well (result, "push" most likely), PLUS can use spells that provide light-power if by chance the sun is obstructed (at least that's what *I* would do - have several jokers hanging around, with a couple dozen scrolls containing suitable spells - if you don't think a simple Light or Continual Light spell will cut it, and it's reasonable to say it wouldn't be enough, then they would have likely researched/created one that will - if all else fails, Sunray would certainly be good enough). Every time I read the description of those City-Busters, I'm stunned. I'm not sure any other flying vessel on or in Mystara even compares. Two mile range? gah! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:54:24 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-20 5:57:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << Milenia/Nithia are basically HW analogues of Thyatis/Alphatia, with the bonus that both nations are much more powerful than their OW brethren. To be honest one thing I dislike about the HW work in the MAs is that they seem to brushed aside as minor in the timeline. Milenia, Nithia and perhaps the Azca are the stars of the show. Alphatia is just one more star to add to the mix (and if anything, a bit of a sidelined one because a) they float, and b) Nithia is already the magical giant of the HW). >> But the Heldannic Knights and to a lesser extent the Alphatians had one major advantages over the natives -- mobility, in the form of artifact powered flying craft. They also had higher proportions of spellcasters among them, as they were not bothered by that prime requisite of 16+ requirement. Nithia is probably the most powerful nation ever to have existed in the outer world, but within the Hollow World there are many factors holding them in check -- and the fact that certain Nithian magic works only within the borders of Nithia is great for defending Nithia against invaders but no help at all for an aggessive campaign against intruders who are not yet a threat to Nithia. The Milenians at first would seem to have a more aggressive attitude that would make them better candidates for carrying out their campaign, but they are culturally limited to a poor enough selection of armor and weapons that they count as a "primitive" culture worthy of a "special compensation" -- note that the best armed and armored cultures get no such compensation. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:54:26 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Tome of Mystara query (was Thyatian background help needed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-20 1:06:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Note also that in the Tome of Mystara #3 there's an extensive Thyatian Timeline - look over the "Recent History" parts; that might help give you an idea or two. >> I have one question about the Tome of Mystara: Each time I have gone to that site I have been dismayed to find that I have to go to every page of it and read it or save it online. Does anyone have any plans to collect each issue into a ZIP file that could be downloaded all at once? Then we could go to the site, pick up everything in one stop, and then read it at leisure without tying up our phone lines. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:10:01 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-20 6:50:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Every time I read the description of those City-Busters, I'm stunned. I'm not sure any other flying vessel on or in Mystara even compares. Two mile range? gah! >> Where are they described? I don't recall seeing them in their HWR gazetteer. If those things can be used outside of Nithia, then they would have a good chance of taking on the Heldannics or the Alphatians, with only their ancient mindset enforced by the Spell of Preservation to hold them back. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:16:37 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >manic snipping commences< > Given Thyatis has 250 36th level > wizards and many, many more lower level ones, the Milenians wouldn't = have > any military advantage from magic either. Isn't it funny how this comes up every so often? Sure, Thyatis has 250 = L36 magic-users. And if they were organized in an army they would kick butt. They never will be, so who cares? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wizard's Shopper wrote: > > Where are they described? I don't recall seeing them in their HWR gazetteer. If those things can be used outside of Nithia, then they would have a good chance of taking on the Heldannics or the Alphatians, with only their ancient mindset enforced by the Spell of Preservation to hold them back. << They can't be used outside Nithia. *Porphy mutters about having to find page numbers for everyone and their uncle, but goes and does it* *To look up the exact page number, which he hasn't memorized, the Evil Genius of the MML first has to locate his Nithia Gaz.* *This takes some time as it's in a pile of stuff. Though it ends up being in the first place he looked, he over-looked it the first time he checked there, thus he had to go through everything and end up starting the search back at the begining before finally locating it where he first thought it would be.* *Then the Evil Genius' computer froze* DM's Guide, pp.35-36; description starts at the very end of p.35 and continues on p.36. Jacob Skytte wrote: >>Isn't it funny how this comes up every so often? Sure, Thyatis has 250 L36 magic-users. And if they were organized in an army they would kick butt. They never will be, so who cares? << It's funny how the relative magical power of lots of mystaran nations comes up so often. None of them will be organized into an army, so who cares? Actually, we should care, because it tends to provide a relative measure of magical strength (though you are right that too much shouldn't be read into such measures, especially in respect to disorganized nations that lack a sense of what might be called "civic spirit" and thus they aren't likely to get much of anything out of it. But such "measures" aren't mentioned in Sources because they're unimportant.) Mr. Biles did have a point here, to the effect that even the high poobah of Milenia's college of sorcery (I forget the name of that - someone look it up for me 8-)~.) isn't even 36th level. I personally found that surprising - but it does provide support for Mr. Biles's thesis that Thyatis "out-classes" Milenia magically. However, I myself do tend to fall into the camp where I don't think the HW'ers are as impotent and helpless as is sometimes assumed. After all, Rob's point about how the SoP-backed Neathar were able to "push-back" against the Alphatians in Neatharum shouldn't be set asside or ignored. They did quite well on their own, without minders. . .even against their putative "minders" and "guardians". Anyhow, we know what sort of "Protectorate" Alphatia tends to establish over folks when given the chance. I think most HWers, if asked, would say "um, thanks but no thanks, guys. We'll take care of ourselves." Isn't a big deal, anyhow, 'cause last I checked outter world nations weren't exactly overunning the HW in the first place. Ostdock? Big whoop. Minor, really - stuff like that happens on the surface all the time, or among the HWers themselves, and isn't exactly the End of it All. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:14:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Hollow World Alfheim Elves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 20 May 2000 11:57:18 Caroletti wrote: >The Stalker ha scritto: > >> On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:14:51 Caroletti wrote: >> >By the way: we should make a party and invite James Ruhland, >> >who said some times ago that we should do a party wheter >> >we managed to have more than 10 replies in a discussion which >> >didn't involve Alphatia & Thyatis. >> > >> >> LOL! Good point! >> >> I'm a little confused, though! I thought jabs at James were exclusively reserved for us blasted Alphatiaphiles - what gives ? ;) >> >> - The Stalker of Alphatia > >Only a Thyatian could beat a Thyatian. You others on the list had not the least chance of success. > "I took the liberty of sending your comment along to our warriors who fought in the recent WOTI war - rarely have I seen them laugh so hard" ;) - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:45:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: The Stalker Organization: Angelfire (http://email.angelfire.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 20 May 2000 09:40:20 Beau Yarbrough wrote: > I'm trying to fill in some more details about Nicodemus Majoh, the Wizard >of Midwood. (Thanks for the advice about making his locked box be of Tel >Akbir origins. That'll be a nice detail.) I want to fill in a bit of his >life before he left Thyatis, following Stefan Karameikos to the Grand Duchy >of Traladara. Well, I liked your descriptions of the old critter (even though he *is* only a Thyatian :) ), so I had better think of something to add... > Glancing over the materials at dnd.starflung.com, I THINK I want him to >have been raised in Kantrium and to have studied magic in Thyatis City at >the Collegium Arcanum. > But is there a standard motivation for the Thyatians who followed >Karameikos out into the frontier? I was thinking that Nicodemus could have >been disgusted with something, or have left Thyatis proper in response to >some social changes in the country. Well, the standard reason for Thyatians to leave for Karameikos is to gain more power - most powerful people in Karameikos are Thyatians. The only problem with that is that as far as I can tell from your descriptions of Nicodemus, he does not strike me as the sort of fellow too interested in that sort of thing. I mean, he lives out in the woods and doesn't use his power of magic to increase his position... > Any thoughts? > Sure. (General Health Warning: Plug for my some of my own material *will* follow!) One thing I did IMC was establish a bit more background for Stefan. IMC he was an adventurer at times, and sometimes he would work with a group of adventurers known as 'The Lions of Kerendas' (which is why he is referred to as 'The King Lion' in my Calamity Star doomsday prophecies for WOTI - an IMC bit that I should probably have left out of the prophecies because it may make them less appropriate for people to use). Though the group was founded in Kerendas, it did travel most of Mainland Thyatis to deal with trouble there. One of Stefan's companions in this group was Arturus Penhaligon (the later Baron and father of Lady Arteris), and I assume that Nicodemus could have been another if you like. The only problem with that is that Nicodemus seems far less experienced than Stefan, but then he could have stopped adventuring when still relatively inexperienced while Stefan continued... Or Nicodemus could have been the apprentice of Teldon (as I believe someone suggested but incorrectly gave the name as Telemon, who is, in fact, the King of the Shadowelves! Or else there is a *lot* you haven't told us about Nicodemus yet :) ). Nicodemus could also have been the apprentice of an even older wizard companion of Stefan who moved (along with Nicodemus) to Karameikos and then died many years ago, leaving Nicodemus to take care of himself and ending up with the Callarii elves. This could make sense as wizard tend to be much older than their warrior companions (Teldon, for example, is close to 110 years in 1,000 AC (Karameikos gaz) though he is 'only' 15th level). Well, just some ideas... - The Stalker of Alphatia Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:55:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well, the standard reason for Thyatians to leave for Karameikos is to gain more power - most powerful people in Karameikos are Thyatians. The only problem with that is that as far as I can tell from your descriptions of Nicodemus, he does not strike me as the sort of fellow too interested in that sort of thing. I mean, he lives out in the woods and doesn't use his power of magic to increase his position... > Well, there isn't really a problem with that, IMO, which is a bit (though I should have made it more explicit) what I was getting at in my own little suggestions - He *could* have originally come for some of the usual reasons, but then his personality changed over time (like real people do) - that might be why he's out in the woods now, uninterested in using his abilities for selfish power grabs, etc - some experience(s) during his life could have changed how he viewed things, how he behaved, etc: now he's a woodsy, folksy type, when before he was a brash, ambitious person. He's tempered with age or however one wants to put it. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:06:45 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-20 7:42:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << Anyhow, we know what sort of "Protectorate" Alphatia tends to establish over folks when given the chance. I think most HWers, if asked, would say "um, thanks but no thanks, guys. We'll take care of ourselves." Isn't a big deal, anyhow, 'cause last I checked outter world nations weren't exactly overunning the HW in the first place. Ostdock? Big whoop. Minor, really - stuff like that happens on the surface all the time, or among the HWers themselves, and isn't exactly the End of it All. >> Quite true. By my theory, the two big "threats" to the Hollow World have been dealt with, but the Spell of Preservation is still in trouble (because it is still "malfunctioning" from the excess input of attempting to assimilate a culture that is too large for its normal processing). Now the big challenge is to complete the assimilation of the Alphatians -- a process that is greatly complicated by the fact that the Alphatians of the floating continent have successfully made contact with their counterparts in the outer world. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:06:43 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Tome of Mystara query (was Thyatian background help ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-20 10:43:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@cableinet.co.uk writes: << If you have a PC try getting BlackWidow (try Tucows). This allows you to get all the files on a site and download them for offline viewing. I did this for dnd.starflung.com and now have a mirror of the site to peruse at my leisure. >> Unfortunately I am having a bit of trouble deciphering the above. I assume that BlackWidow is a program available from the Tucows site. Could you please give the exact URL for this program? And does it have any system requirements beyond that of "having a PC"? Somehow I suspect that I may not be able to make use of that program via AOL. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion In-Reply-To: <000f01bfc2b1$73227060$0ada61d4@skytte> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 May 2000, Jacob Skytte wrote: > >manic snipping commences< > > > Given Thyatis has 250 36th level > > wizards and many, many more lower level ones, the Milenians wouldn't have > > any military advantage from magic either. > > Isn't it funny how this comes up every so often? Sure, Thyatis has 250 L36 magic-users. > And if they were organized in an army they would kick butt. > They never will be, so who cares? > A society which can produce that many 36th level mages has to first produce many, many, many lower level mages as well, who CAN be formed into parts of armies. It also provides a rough index to try to estimate the # of Thyatian magi from. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:20:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Tome of Mystara query (was Thyatian background help ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Unfortunately I am having a bit of trouble deciphering the above. I assume > that BlackWidow is a program available from the Tucows site. Could you > please give the exact URL for this program? And does it have any system > requirements beyond that of "having a PC"? Somehow I suspect that I may > not be able to make use of that program via AOL. > http://www.softbytelabs.com. Unsure if it's compatible with AOL but it does have it's own browser. Read the Helpfiles to see how to run it and just start it up once you're online then just go rip the sites you want of all the files. Peruse them all in the peace of your own offline viewing. Christ! I should get paid for this much advertising of the product ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Ranma Al'Thor Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion In-Reply-To: <200005202342.TAA13068@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 May 2000, James Ruhland wrote: > However, I myself do tend to fall into the camp where I don't think the > HW'ers are as impotent and helpless as is sometimes assumed. After all, > Rob's point about how the SoP-backed Neathar were able to "push-back" > against the Alphatians in Neatharum shouldn't be set asside or ignored. > They did quite well on their own, without minders. . .even against their > putative "minders" and "guardians". > Alphatian Neatherum was a tiny colony, hard to reinforce and at the end of a mile long chain which meant reinforcements were hard to come by and expensive. The Neathar could hold their own because Alphatian Neatherum didn't have the resources to conduct the sort of large scale warfare with occupation of territory and slaughter of the population which is the only way to defeat nomadic tribes. In an open field battle, the Alphatians would have slaughtered the Neatherum every time, but with lots and lots of Neathar and not lots and lots of Alphatians, sheer numbers and space It was rather like what would have happened to Pizarro or Cortes if they'd tried to pull their stunts in North America against cultures where you can't just knock off the guy in charge and take his place and rule over people used to being kicked around. If the main Alphatian army had been sent down underground to start crushing the Neathar, they'd have been crushed. Thanks to the SoP, the Alphatians would have found them so fractious and untamable that they would have made worthless subjects, and meanwhile, up on the surface, Thyatis would have been kicking Alphatia's butt. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu rhea@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "The connection is so abstract, that we have people whose job it is to make sure the paperwork doesn't get totally disconnected from the world. Theoretically, I handle millions of dollars a day, but it is less real than this e-mail. I have never seen our product. I have never seen the sales people. I have never seen a customer." --Robert Lane describes his work as an accountant. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:31:58 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Master's Pawn Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/20/2000 8:57:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM writes: << He *could* have originally come for some of the usual reasons, but then his personality changed over time (like real people do) - that might be why he's out in the woods now, uninterested in using his abilities for selfish power grabs, etc - some experience(s) during his life could have changed how he viewed things, how he behaved, etc: now he's a woodsy, folksy type, when before he was a brash, ambitious person. He's tempered with age or however one wants to put it. >> Then again, maybe he did something, or was accused of doing something, that made it neccessary that he fake his own death, take the name Nicodemus, and move out to the middle of nowhere to hide, and do research undisturbed on The Big Problem (whatever your campaign decides is The Big Problem). It could be an artifact, spell research, something that requires him to be close to the elves, something that requires him to be close to the PCs, its all up to where your campaign is going. BoBo II ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:13:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No. > > Nithia's main schtick, Pyramid Power, is rather more useful for keeping > your hair clean and your boots polished than for any sort of combat > applications, especially outside of Nithia. Yes, they have those pyramid > power projectors for combat, but I'd put my money on the Alphatian Air > Fleet or the Retibius Air Force, or even the Heldannic Warbirds any day. Yes. A Nithian floatbarge would annihilate an Alphatian skyship before it even got in range. Lets be honest here - according to canon the Mighty Magic of Alphatia consists of bullshit like Steelform and Clothform. Not exactly scary stuff. A quick perusal of the Nithia book will reveal far more powerful combat magics, both magic items and things like sunburners. And Nithian warriors arent slouches either. Khopesh warriors are unbelievably hard. (OK, there arent many of them). You can add abilities to the Alphatians to make them more powerful (hell, I do, check out the Alphatian Aeromancy post I did) but the Nithians are not wusses. > Most of the really powerful Nithian magic has been stripped from them and > kept from them, thanks to the Spell of Preservation. They have bronze age > technology, while everyone on the surface is living in the iron age. > There's a good reason iron replaced bronze for weapons...bronze sucks in > comparison. Check out the Khopesh Warrior. A bronze khopesh sword still kills, and IIRC a Khopesh Warriors armour class rivals or exceeds that of a heavily armoured Karameikan knight. These guys are hard!!! > Now, if the Nithians were able to arrange a set piece battle in the > desert, on the ground, where their weapons and tactics are best adapted > for combat, then they would tend to win the battle, given they know how to > fight in the desert better than most Mystaran cultures (certainly better > than the Alphatians, who couldn't manage to suppress a revolt by the > Alaysians). > > But in any other terrain type, the Nithians would be turned into hamburger > by most surface world forces. Especially if the Ylari somehow got down > there, since they could counter the 'protected by desert that only we know > how to fight in' advantage. Well, if Nithia fought outside Nithia they would be hammered because their main asset - magic - doesnt work. Thats because of the SoP keeping them in line. > > And Milenia is Thyatis on steroids. I mean, the place is based on ancient > > Greece (admittedly loosely), and IMO the Milenian (Spartan) Hoplite should > > be the ultimate Mystaran soldier. Certainly able to beat seven shades of > > Simply put, the Milenians can't be up to Spartan standards, because the > Spartans only sustained them by abandoning every aspect of life except > athletics and war. They weren't just professional soldiers, they were > soldiers for life. The Milenians don't live like that and wouldn't want > to. Well, not the entirety of Milenia would be Spartan, just like not the entirety of Greece would be Spartan. There are a couple of Milenian cities based on Spartan principles though, it is logical that they would produce similar quality warriors. However, just look at Greece - Alexander the Great had the Persian army after all, without Spartans. He may have been a great general, but if his men were useless he wouldn't have won. Milenian infantry are actually harder than any other infantry in the HW anyway, they get +2 to hit and +1 to damage on top of all their other bonuses. So they are nails :). Something even the Thyatians dont get. If you look at the Milenian legions compared to the Thyatian ones in the Almanac, they are directly comparable, indeed near identical. (Anyone read David Eddings? In one of his books his own equivalent of the Spartans come back. But their reputation proves to be a bit unfounded as they were totally unprepared for dealing with knights, who just rode them down. Not sure if that would work in practice (sarissas are effectively pike walls) but its a similar point to the one you were making). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:18:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But the Heldannic Knights and to a lesser extent the Alphatians had one > major advantages over the natives -- mobility, in the form of artifact powered > flying craft. They also had higher proportions of spellcasters among them, > as they were not bothered by that prime requisite of 16+ requirement. Nithia > is probably the most powerful nation ever to have existed in the outer world, > but within the Hollow World there are many factors holding them in check -- > and the fact that certain Nithian magic works only within the borders of > Nithia is great for defending Nithia against invaders but no help at all for > an This is all very true. But Nithian craft would have mobility as well - its just that the SoP stopped them! (Just like Milenia cant make a navy, so they are effectively trapped as well). If skyships mobility makes Alphatia so superior, it seems to me that the SoP should promptly put an end to that. Either that or have the Nithians make a breakthrough so they can send their floatbarges out of the desert, in which case some Alphatians would promptly get their wings clipped from 2 miles. Frankly, the Heldannics are not a problem. They are far too small in number to pose a threat to any HW nation. And the trip from the OW to the HW is hardly trivial. > aggessive campaign against intruders who are not yet a threat to Nithia. > The Milenians at first would seem to have a more aggressive attitude that > would make them better candidates for carrying out their campaign, but > they are culturally limited to a poor enough selection of armor and weapons > that they count as a "primitive" culture worthy of a "special compensation" > -- note that the best armed and armored cultures get no such compensation. I dont know... thats like saying a surface world nation is culturally limited to longswords and chainmail. So? If the weapons are good, than that'll do. IMO the shortsword in AD&D is probably the best all round weapon in the game. Spears arent bad, entirely comparable to longswords with the advantage that you can throw them. The only slight weakness is the fact that Milenians dont use longbows - but lets be honest, the Longbow Craze in the OW is ridiculous, half the OW nations shouldnt really be using them, so even that isnt such a vast hindrance. (Incidentally, I dont think the Milenians really are aggressive. Certainly not up to Thyatian standards of aggressiveness anyway. "Erratic" in Civilisation terms, I would say ;) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:21:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << Every time I read the description of those City-Busters, I'm stunned. I'm > not sure any other flying vessel on or in Mystara even compares. Two mile > range? gah! >> > > Where are they described? I don't recall seeing them in their HWR > gazetteer. If those things can be used outside of Nithia, then they > would have a good chance of taking on the Heldannics or the Alphatians, > with only their ancient mindset enforced by the Spell of Preservation > to hold them back. Its the weapon mounted on the floatbarges. No, they cant be used outside of Nithia (if they could, the HW would be Nithian by now). These penalties for those outside their area for Nithia IMO should be duplicated for Alphatia. I would hazard that Alphatia could control everything above the skyshield (all the floating continents perhaps) but are heavily penalised when venturing into the HW proper (the SoP would be problem enough with the spell restrictions, almost). Certainly if Alphatia gets uppity and starts trying something, the Smack should be laid down swiftly so they make other plans (either unrest at home forcing Alphatia to turn inward looking, reducing the effectiveness of Alphatian combat forces, or improving the defence of those they are attacking, cf the Neathar). Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:23:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Given Thyatis has 250 36th level > wizards and many, many more lower level ones, the Milenians wouldn't have > any military advantage from magic either. Isn't it funny how this comes up every so often? Sure, Thyatis has 250 L36 magic-users. And if they were organized in an army they would kick butt. They never will be, so who cares? Well, Milenia has a big population and a considerably more scholastic attitude to Thyatis in my view. I'm sure Milenia has more than a few 36th level mages of its own. Indeed, probably all three of the main HW nations (the Azca, Nithians and Milenians) have a fair few 36th level mages. How many are there in Nithia???? I dread to think. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:25:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mr. Biles did have a point here, to the effect that even the high poobah of > Milenia's college of sorcery (I forget the name of that - someone look it > up for me 8-)~.) isn't even 36th level. I personally found that surprising > - but it does provide support for Mr. Biles's thesis that Thyatis > "out-classes" Milenia magically. Xanthipon, hes called. He's hard enough, though... Bear in mind he features in a level 3-5 adventure (and he is even involved in a mosh) so I wouldnt base much credence on him. Also bear in mind that Circe is level 100, and she is sort of Milenian :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:31:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Quite true. By my theory, the two big "threats" to the Hollow World have > been dealt with, but the Spell of Preservation is still in trouble (because it > is still "malfunctioning" from the excess input of attempting to assimilate > a culture that is too large for its normal processing). Now the big challenge > is to complete the assimilation of the Alphatians -- a process that is greatly > complicated by the fact that the Alphatians of the floating continent have > successfully made contact with their counterparts in the outer world. I can't see why it would be "malfunctioning". It took the Immortals a long time to wake Alphatia up, maybe they were recalibrating the SoP while doing so. Just because Alphatia was big when it was transported - I think that make no difference whatsoever. The way I see it, the SoP perhaps assists a nation grow initially - the thousand transplanted from the OW quickly build their empire - and then keeps them in line afterwards. Alphatia just bypassed the first bit. If the SoP can keep the Azca, the Nithians and the Milenians in line, it can definitely handle the Alphatians. Regarding the Alphatians contacting the OW - big deal. What has actually come of that? Nothing. The NACE in practice doesnt really seem to give a damn, as they have trouble of their own. As I mentioned before, the passage into the HW is not trivial (and a prime candidate area for SoP meddling - I wouldnt like to captain a big fleet bent on conquest through those polar entrances). The Heldannics came from the OW as well, and their impact on the HW was negligible (they captured the equivalent of a village). The only possible weakening, as I see it, was the actual effects on the Worldshield of Alphatia sinking. (And maybe Thanatos' burrowers too). But bear in mind the HW depends on the SoP for its survival - if the SoP breaks, the HW breaks as well (read the HW modules...) maybe taking the OW with it. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:35:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If the main Alphatian army had been sent down underground to start > crushing the Neathar, they'd have been crushed. Thanks to the SoP, the > Alphatians would have found them so fractious and untamable that they > would have made worthless subjects, and meanwhile, up on the surface, > Thyatis would have been kicking Alphatia's butt. Well, yeah. How would you crush them exactly? They arent exactly city based, you would have to garrison the entire area. Even Alphatia doesnt have that kind of manpower. And if other kingdoms in the HW take offence at these actions there could soon be an "Anti Alphatian League" forming, and then Alphatia can take on the lot. And then float barges may mysteriously work outside Nithia with some difficulty and in small numbers, the dinosaurs will get aggro towards the Alphatians, the Milenians will develop the ability to project their forces long distancem, and Alphatian skyships will discover that their enchantments are fading and need work to maintain. If Alphatia really desperately wants a colony (and the Immortals are up for preserving Alphatian colonial culture) they already have one. Neatharum. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:12:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Given Thyatis has 250 36th level > > > wizards and many, many more lower level ones, the Milenians = wouldn't have > > > any military advantage from magic either. > > > > Isn't it funny how this comes up every so often? Sure, Thyatis has = 250 L36 magic-users. > > And if they were organized in an army they would kick butt. > > They never will be, so who cares? > > > A society which can produce that many 36th level mages has to first > produce many, many, many lower level mages as well, who CAN be formed = into > parts of armies. Who says that Thyatis "produced" these mages? First of all, the wizards = of Sclaras aren't restricted to being Thyatian, as far as I can tell. = Second, nobody knows whether these mages ever adventured in Thyatis. And = I can see no reason that their apprentices (there are 1250 apprentices = and family members of these 250 mages) or other lower level wizards = would want to be part of armies, since that is probably not the easiest = way to learn more magic (and is probably out-of-character for most = mages, anyway). Also (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a = culture that places such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in = the army be scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very = low, since they wouldn't want to take the abuse? > It also provides a rough index to try to estimate the # of Thyatian = magi from. Agreed. But, like I just mentioned, these mages need not be Thyatian in = the first place, and I don't think that these or other visiting mages = (lower level) constitute much of a basis to evaluate Thyatian magi. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:06:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm trying to fill in some more details about Nicodemus Majoh, the Wizard > of Midwood. (Thanks for the advice about making his locked box be of Tel > Akbir origins. That'll be a nice detail.) I want to fill in a bit of his > life before he left Thyatis, following Stefan Karameikos to the Grand Duchy > of Traladara. > Glancing over the materials at dnd.starflung.com, I THINK I want him to > have been raised in Kantrium and to have studied magic in Thyatis City at > the Collegium Arcanum. > But is there a standard motivation for the Thyatians who followed > Karameikos out into the frontier? I was thinking that Nicodemus could have > been disgusted with something, or have left Thyatis proper in response to > some social changes in the country. > Any thoughts? > > BEAU OK I've got one or two questions and suggestions for you. The first one was of course, where is Kantrium? The Mystaran Almanac it does mention it, but it is not in DotE, so I haven't a clue where it is on the map. This suggests to me that it has been created recently, making it more unlikely Nicodemus came from there (of course, the village of Kantrium could have been around for some time, just it was so small it just wasn't included in DotE). I would suggest, that Nicodemus comes from the Duchy of Machetos, which is populated by a goodly number of Thyatians of Traladaran descent (which suggests to me that Machetos was once part of ancient Traldar, but thats another topic...), and would lean towards the Traladarans of Midwood being more accepting of him, than they would a truely Thyatian "invader" (i.e. a Thyatian of Kerendan, Hattian, or Thyatian descent). Now, the Thyatians practice a custom of "Running away from home" to thwart their families plans for them, and assume a different name to avoid detection. I suggest that this is exactly what Nicodemus did (just think Nicodemus might not even be his real name - that could cause the PCs a headache or two in the future (evil DMs laugh)). After finishing his apprenticeship, Nicodemus served a term in the army (probably in a support section of a legion), and his CO was none other than Lord Stefan Karameikos. This would give him a chance to get to know the morals and ideals of Stefan Karameikos, without actually being tied to a major NPC in a "friendship" way. In later years, when the now Duke Stefan, announced that he was creating his own kingdom (for the lack of a better word) in the lands of Traladara, Nicodemus chose to join him in this great venture. Not for the lands offered (he doesn't strike me as a conquering sort), but because he could see a once mighty Thyatis starting to crumble from within through corruption and decadence. Having served under Duke Stefan in earlier years, he knew the Duke to be a basically good egg, and decided to start again under a fair and decent ruler. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:18:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they wouldn't want to take the abuse? Then again once his squad buddies see the effects of his sleep spell, would they be quite so insulting? IMO Thyatis has always based it's military on all three branches, competent warriors, clerics and mages, because there's great military advantage in doing so. Consider the morale effect upon the opposing infantry unit as a couple of fireballs race towards them. "Shit! How many more of those things have they got?", is then the uppermost thought in the opposition, not their well drilled fighting manoeuvres. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:39:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places such > regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by > regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they wouldn't > want to take the abuse? > > Then again once his squad buddies see the effects of his sleep spell, > would they be quite so insulting? > > IMO Thyatis has always based it's military on all three branches, > competent warriors, clerics and mages, because there's great military > advantage in doing so. Consider the morale effect upon the opposing infantry > unit as a couple of fireballs race towards them. "Shit! How many more of > those things have they got?", is then the uppermost thought in the > opposition, not their well drilled fighting manoeuvres. > I totally agree. According to the Legions of Thyatis scenario, a command cohort of a Thyatian Legion consists of Legion Cavalry, Elite Infantry, Pioneers, Foresters, and a Medical Corps. It states that the Forester section are scouts that are usually made up of 100 elves (although IMO I can't see why magic users would be excluded). The Medical Corps consists of 100 clerics (obviously). This would suggest that a Thyatian Legion has always incorporated magic into its make-up. In addition to this, after the Thyatians had the stuffing kicked out of them by the Alphatians in WotI, wouldn't they increase the number of magic users they had in their Cohorts to increase their firepower?? Personally, I think after such a harsh lesson, the Thyatian military would incorporate one magic-user in each squad (of 10 men). A sort of heavy weapons guy if you like. :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: NPC: Sayyed al-Aziz In-Reply-To: <008901bfc329$23b1e600$328530d5@pauldool> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sayyed al-Aziz History: Sayyed was born 51 years ago in the Emirate of Nicostenia, the son of a somewhat prosperous (but not overly rich) merchant family. His interests from a young age tended more to the political than the economic, and he sought as much contact as possible with government officials, to learn all he could. His family frowned on such interests somewhat, but obligeed their son's desires, by using their connections to win him trips abroad with diplomatic missions. Sayyed was not disappointed with what he saw, and put all his energy and effort into becoming a diplomat himself. He has had a good career in those ranks, and now has elevated himself to the position of ambassador to Rockhome, one of the most important posts of the foreign service. Personality: Sayyed is a devout follower of the Eternal Truth, but does not seek to proselytize, especially when negotiating with those of other faiths. He has the best interests of the Ylari at heart, but does not scorn the interests of Rockhome, and as such is heavily appreciated by other nations, as he does a wonderful job of working out differences in a manner all can be satisfied with. He does bear strong prejudices towards some lands (like the antireligious folks of Alphatia and Glantri) and even some peoples within Rockhome (the Hurwarf clan), but few ambassadors could manage the task he does. If there is a problem with Sayyed's life, it is that he is too devoted to his work - this leaves his family an afterthought. His wife makes due the best she can, and is a close friend of Koris of the Buhrodars (as she appreciates the importance of faith), which helps the diplomatic process, but Sayyed is not too close to his wife. He loves her, and she him, but they find little time for one another, and as a result some conflict has begun. The process is not helped by their son, Sherif, who has gotten mixed up with the wrong crowd, as he lacks a male role model in the home. It appears to be only a matter of time before he causes a disgrace and a huge diplomatic disaster by getting involved in a major crime. The couple's daughter, Fatima, has taken much better to the Rockhome life, and has learned to mimic many parts of their culture. About the only problem there is that she has taken to an appreciation of alcoholic beverages, which her parents, being strong followers of the teachings of Al-Kalim, frown upon. Appearance: Sayyed wears typical Ylari clothing befitting one of some wealth, with a preference for fine, elegant silks. It does make him stand out in a dwarven crowd, which he does not mind, but he does make concessions when appropriate, donning dull, serviceable clothes as apropos. He is a tall man, standing 6'0" and is of moderate build, with the first signs of grey beginning to appear in his black hair. He keeps himself in fair shape, and appears a few years younger than he is. Combat Notes: He is a 5th-level fighter. AC 7 (Leather); hp 23; at 1; d 1d12 (sword, skilled), save F5 (+1 vs. spells); ML 10; Al L; S 11, I 14, W 15, D 10, Co 13, Ch 16. Languages: Ylari, Common, Lawful, Thyatian, Dwarvish, Ethengari. General Skills: Profession (Diplomat) (I), Persuasin (Ch), Knowledge (Dwarven Culture) (I) Magical Items: Lamp of Long Burning, Ring of Djinni Summoning DM Notes: Sayyed is a good contact for Rockhome dwarves seeking to journey to Ylaruam, or for Ylari visitors to the dwarven land, as he is a good font of information on the cultural differences. He would be a good source for PCs seeking negotiations with either land, given his diplomatic skill and knowledge. Fatima is a likely companion for dwarven PCs accepting of outsiders, or for Ylari travellers in Dengar. And of course, PCs may get involved by having to try to teach Sherif how to behave (which his parents would gladly pay for), by having to quiet up a misdeed of the boy's, by being attacked by the lad's gang or in any other number of ways. The Hurwarfs would definitely sound their isolation bells if something wrong happened. Comments always appreciated - Mischa [T]he new century will be underwritten by the same callous fools who made the last 100 years such a hoot. Three cheers for our way of life and the spiritual vacuum created in its wake. May we be the most efficient consumers who've ever lived. - Tony Norman, 12/31/99 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:14:54 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: NPC: Fila Magebasher MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another dwarvish tie-in (I just got GAZ4, 6 and 7, hence a bit of a northeastern theme to some of the next few NPCs...) Fila Magebasher History: Fila is a 36-year old single dwarf, in the middle of her Youth. She was born into the Torkrest clan, and learned their military traditions, though she did not join the Rockhome military. Instead, raised on stories of the evil wizards of Glantri who had tried to commit genocide of the innocent dwarves, she decided to adventure abroad and help the fight against those scum. She heard of the Ethengari recruitment of dwarven soldiers for future plans against Glantri, which she found to be the perfect solution for her wants. She joined the Brothers of the Bolt without delay, and has since served them faithfully for 12 years. Personality: Fila is overrun by a hatred of those who deal in unnatural forces, other than those properly derived from the immortals. She is especially antagonistic to the murderous and arrogant Glantrians, but she has started more than one feud with a hakomon sorceror. Since the hakomon are somewhat separate from the rest of the Ethengari, this behavior is not frowned upon too harshly, as Fila knows where to draw the line. Outside of her disdain for one character class, she is a cheerful, personable dwarf, and has many friends in the armies of the Khan and especially among the Brothers of the Bolt. She misses her home sometimes, but for the forseeable future plans to stay with the western lands. Appearance: Fila is of about average beauty, by dwarven maiden standards. She has dark hair, which flies every which way during her battle charges, and wears typically bland dwarven clothes. She is generally armored, making her appear a tad taller than her 4'0" and a good deal heavier than her her 135-pound frame, but will don lighter armors for quick strike raids. She does not pay close attention to her appearance, as she thinks folks should be judged by their character rather than their looks. Combat Notes: She is a 4th-level dwarf. AC 2 (using Plate Mail and Shield; varies depending upon the situation); hp 25; at 1; d 1d6+2 (war hammer, skilled), save D4; ML 12; Al N; S 12, I 7, W 9, D 10, Co 11, Ch 10. Languages: Common, Neutral, Dwarvish, Ethengari. General Skills:Engineering (I), Mining (I), Bravery (W) DM Notes: Fila could serve as an antagonist for Glantrian parties, or an ally for Ethengari armies. While she generally only ventures into Glantri, she could assist the Ethengar on an expidition into mountainous realms, or in opposition to the humanoid tribes that range their territory. She could also liven things up in the Ethengari camps by striking a feud with a PC hakomon or by getting into a drinking match with PCs or could simply develop friendships with allies. Comments, as always, would be welcomed with the most sought-after attention. - Mischa [T]he new century will be underwritten by the same callous fools who made the last 100 years such a hoot. Three cheers for our way of life and the spiritual vacuum created in its wake. May we be the most efficient consumers who've ever lived. - Tony Norman, 12/31/99 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed Mystara wrote: >> OK I've got one or two questions and suggestions for you. The first one was of course, where is Kantrium? << Kantrium is a Duchy in the Thyatian mainland, east of Retebius, west of Tel Akbir, south of the easternmost tip of the Southern Altan Tepes Mountains, fronting the northern shore of the Gulf of Kantrium. >> This suggests to me that it has been created recently, << Actually, the Duchy of Kantrium is one of the Empire's oldest, but currently less prominent, dominions. It was formed during the reign of the first Emperor, Zendrol. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) >> Who says that Thyatis "produced" these mages? << Ahh, I see; you're one of "those" people. Well, if you want to believe that Thyatis set asside an island for the use of a bunch of people who are antipathetic to it, then you're free to do that. Strained, odd interpretations seem to be de-rigur (next I suppose you might say that there's nothing to suggest that Alphatia "produced" the members of its Council of Wizards, right? But that Alphatia just gives them a prominent role in Alphatian society out of some odd generousity. That's anagolous to what you're suggesting here. . .) I quite doubt that many people will concur with your interpretation with respect to either nation. >> Also (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they wouldn't want to take the abuse? << You're wrong there, too. See Player's Guide to Thyatis, p.10, under "Role of Magic-Users." Mr. Dooley and Mr. Jones Good try, though. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Milenian Fleet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This is all very true. But Nithian craft would have mobility as well - its just that the SoP stopped them! (Just like Milenia cant make a navy, so they are effectively trapped as well). << Actually, Milenia does have a navy, but the mindset seems to be to use it for defense (I.E. against the Merry Pirates and Traldar raiders) rather than colonization/expansion. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If skyships mobility makes Alphatia so superior, it seems to me that the SoP should promptly put an end to that. < < You mean have the Spell of Preservation impose *limits* on the Alphatians? What an unusual concept. . . > > Also bear in mind that Circe is level 100, and she is sort of Milenian :) > Yes, I have that module, too. >> come of that? Nothing. The NACE in practice doesnt really seem to give a damn, as they have trouble of their own. As I mentioned before, the passage into the HW is not trivial. << Well, it's been made easier and easier every year (well, easier and easier for the Alphatians) - the FCA even now has a school to teach magic on the surface, in one of the NACE islands, now. It's a regular commute through the Maelstorm back and forth. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:46:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservationdiscussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Who says that Thyatis "produced" these mages? First of all, the wizards of Sclaras aren't restricted to being Thyatian, as far as I can tell. Second, nobody knows whether these mages ever adventured in Thyatis. << Well, a couple more things on this: 1) If they aren't Thyatian or interested in Thyatis, then they're not likely to want to go there and set up shop. They can do that just fine "at home" (wherever that is). As the description of Sclaras says, in just about every powerful land there's a retreat for powerful mages - the mages of, say, Glantri wouldn't need Sclaras when they can lord it about in Glantri. Mages of Alphatia have Blackheart and the full run of Alphatia (plus, if you think the Thyatians would grant estates on Sclaras to members or potential members of the Alphatian Grand Council of Wizards, you're dreamin'). 2) If they have no interest or ties to Thyatis, highly unlikely to ever apply for an estate on Sclaras (see #1 above), and even more unlikely to ever "make the cut" and be granted one (receiving an estate isn't automatic, given out to any and every joker from the back of beyond, you know). Granting of estates isn't an automatic thing, and you're not going to get one if the rest don't think you deserve one for whatever reason. Not being skilled enough is one, being disliked would be one, not knowing you from adam is another ("never adventured in Thyatis"), and not having at least some sort of tie to Thyatis is certainly one. 3) Again, your statement is like claiming that one doesn't have to be Alphatian or even inclined towards Alphatia to be given a seat on the Alphatian Grand Council of Wizards (after all, it doesn't explicitly *say* one has to be Alphatian or even like Alphatia to be given a seat. But some things are just implicit - the writer figures people will use a modicum of common sense from time to time, and so for sake of space doesn't always state the obvious.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservationdiscussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Mr. Dooley and Mr. Jones > Oh, duh. I stopped in mid sentance, here: what I meant to say was "Mr. Dooley and Mr. Jones covered the rest.", but the phone rang and when I got done I forgot to finish typing the sentance. Sorry for any confusion that might have caused. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:30:52 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Building children of Immortals on point basis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First off....great work on the points system. IM...old...C we used the mortal offspring of an immortal several times. your system would have come in handy back then. one thing we implement was the prophecy aspect where the child was conceived for a specific reason. often this entailled the npc being engineered a bit to fit the desired mold. for example the being would bear certain attributes found in the parent. this being most noticeable in hidden powers. of course part of several of the adventures involved the discovery of these powers and the protection of this offspring until they had mastered their heritage. then they would escort the individual to their prophecised role. the exceptions were the times that the antagonist was the immortal offspring. this brings up the matter of Vix....as mentioned by another respondant. i agree that as presented Vix is not exactly extrordinary as her heritage should dictate. her most remarkable trait is her skin color...plus iirc she was born fully grown or grew to adulthood virtually overnight. without the zargosians she is noting more than a dark skinned milenian fighter. however this can be remedied by some DM tweaking so it is not that big a deal. however i like the idea of the individual doing remarkable things even as a child. i think it was hercules that killed a poisonous serpent as a baby. i also like the premis eof immortals siring mortal children as wouldbe immortal candidates. what better way to stock pandius of allies than to create them and nurture them through their lives. imo it adds an added dimension to immortal patronage. likewise what better arena to spur immortal rivalries than through squabbling siblings and child rebellion of the parent figure. i would also like to mention the side affects of being of divine bloodlines. for example an offspring may bear some invisible aura derived from their immortal bloodlines. those that follow or sympathize with the offspring's child would favor him or her...either by recognizing the divinity or just feeling compelled to do so subconsciously. thereforethere would always be a support base to fall back upon. conversely the immortal parent would bear some stigma where those opposed to the immortals would be adverse to the offspring. therefore there are always opponents around. one thing that i wanted to implement was a mortal offspring coming from two immortals. ixion and valerias is one pairing. so is halav and petra. the latter pair in particular are noted for gathering in the milenian empire for some mortal frolicking. so much so that mortals caught "knot holing" the two are often blinded by the sight. the offspring of divine beings is used in Baldur's Gate computer RPG. it's a good game with a focus on the blood heritage and prophecy. hopefully this attribute will be continued in the upcoming BG2. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:31:11 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Thyatian Slaves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/00 2:27:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agathokles@LIBERO.IT writes: << Alex Benson wrote: > > oh i won't dispute any charitable contributions. however there must be a > reason for these contributions. gladiators have a degree of opportunities for > such patrons. however the bulk of the slaves are not subject to such displays > of praise. Here are a few good reason for a slave to be given money/freedom: -slave owners do free loyal slaves occasionally, for they get a double benefit from it: they improve the overall efficiency of the slaves (which is importat, especially when slaves are given position of responsibility, as, say, farm manager), by showing them that they actually can gain freedom, and they gain new clientes, citizens who can support them in the political life. Also, the new citizens are quite poor, so they still depend on their patrons.>> yes...but remember that slaves are slaves. they are not employees. work performance is not dependant upon benefits. benefits to a slave are pretty minor in the eyes of a free man or woman. decent clothes, better food, better quarters, and even being placed in household roles are benefits as compared to the entry level slave. if a slave does not perform up to par their are consequences....punishment, placement in less than admirable positions, or being sold. likewise slaves that do prove themselves adept at certain positions work themselves to where their owners cannot simply free them. afterall they are going to have to buy another slave and train them for the task or hire someone...perhaps even the former slave. <<-some slaves who manage to rise in their masters' esteem are freed at their masters' death.>> i don't doubt that some masters free slaves. the mass freeings at death is quite well founded even in a north american sense. likewise i would add that eventually slaves wear out their usefullness. they get old or their tasks change. why keep that mouth around to feed if you can simply free the slave and save a few gps a week. anyway...the freeing of slaves at the master's death is also quite within game boundaries. at death's door it doesn't cost the owner anything and gains them "brownie points" in the afterlife. << -some slaves may perform services for people other than their masters. Even when these activities are less than legal, the earned money can be passed as "charitable contribution".>> i don't know. i say this as such ventures are prone to discover and retribution by the owner. let's say a slave suddenly pops up with the cash amount to buy his freedom...surely there are going to be numerous questions as to how the slave got these funds. if you were adhere to this sense, i would go with the patrons eventually buying the slave themselves and freeing him. that way the intriguefactor is minimized...as is the chances for a master to muddy the matter. you could actually set up a charity organization or even a part of a theoretical Thy slave commission to oversee these purchases for emancipation. they could even handle the matter anonimously through established financial accounts. <> well...i think that the difference is more based on the general outlook on slavery in general. the Thys try to humanize it more....that's why i refer to it as being some sort of quasi-indentured servitude. the Alphers call a spade a spade and strictly adhere to the basis of slavery and what they are....slaves. also i think that it should be remember my statement on overemphasis of the freedom aspect for thy slaves. ah heck...i quote from DotE DMG page 37. Slaves in Thyatis "...it's important, that you the DM, not to glamorize slave presence in the campaign. This isn't a setting where slaves, preposterously, enjoy their situation; instead, almost all are overworked and undernourished to premature death. Everyone that can, a small proportion of the slave population, saves money until he can buy his freedom-even those kept comparatively comfortable by their owners." The section goes on to strongly advise against players starting their PCs as slaves. Going as far as to suggest being cheated out of their savings by their owner. The event being used as a demonstration about the unpleasant side of slavery. to me this quote does much to dismiss the preconception of the rather openness of thy slave practices. those gaining their freedoms are few and far between. it's nice and makes for good press for "former slaves" to rise to power. likewise it is a good means to keep the slaves in line with a false sense of freedom being eventually offered to them. those that gain their freedom can honestly say that the system worked for them. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Mischa E Gelman Subject: NPC: Norla In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This will probably be the last one for this week. For more info (well, a paragraph) on the class of dwarf-druids, see the Kogolor HWR by me and Thorfinn Tait (available at Shawn Stanley's site). Norla History: Norla is a 122-cycle old dwarf, who was born in Denkara. She loved the agricultural mindset of the dwarves there, and became close friends with the dwarf-druids. Wouldn't you know it, but she was found to have the necessary skill to be a dwarf-druid. She was adopted into the ranks of the dwarf-druids, married one of her fellow trainees (she has no children yet) and has lived a happy life since. Personality: Norla is, to use an American slang term, a tree-hugger. She loves creation and worships it. This offends those who feel we should worship its creators, but few can stay angry with Norla. She is a kind, considerate, sensitive, thoughtful dwarf who makes friends easily. If her friends have one concern, it's that she seems to care as much about her animal friends as her dwarven ones. Appearance: Norla is good-looking, by dwarven standards. She stands 3'11" and weighs about 140 pounds, with long brown hair. She wears gaily colored clothing, as befits the Kogolor. Combat Notes: She is a 9th-level dwarf-druid. AC 5 (Leather, Wood Shield, Dexterity Bonus); hp 34; at 1; d 1-6 (staff), save D9 (+2 to save vs. spells); ML 8 (12 if nature is threatened); Al N; S 12, I 9, W 17, D 14, Co 10, Ch 12. Languages: Kogolor, Neathar, Krugel, Neutral. General Skills: Mysticism (W), Signalling [Kogoloar Yodelling Code] (I), Mountaineering (D), Nature Lore [Mountain/Hill] (I+1), Survival [Mountain/Hill] (I) - Mischa [T]he new century will be underwritten by the same callous fools who made the last 100 years such a hoot. Three cheers for our way of life and the spiritual vacuum created in its wake. May we be the most efficient consumers who've ever lived. - Tony Norman, 12/31/99 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:26:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: mortus Subject: Re: Campaign detail question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An important object is going to come into my PCs' hands in a few sessions, > and I need a bit of help making it Mystara-correct. > It's a wooden box (sealed with the Nicodemus' locking spell) that I was > imagining resembling the delicately inlaid wooden boxes one can get in the > Middle East. My first thought would be to make such a box Ylari, but I'm > not sure that's appropriate: The character who owns it is Nicodemus Majoh, > a Thyatian who moved to Karameikos when Stefan Karameikos took control of > the territory. I know that Thyatis has previously controlled Ylaruam, but > would that have been within Nicodemus' lifetime? (He was born in the 940s.) > I want this to be a momento of his travels. > If Thyatis didn't control Ylaruam during Nicodemus' adult life, is there > perhaps some Sea of Dread island or other part of the Thyatian Empire that > would produce interesting woodwork? Any details on such cultures and their > handicrafts? why would thyatis need to have controlled ylaruam at the time, surely nico could have picked it up on a past adventure in ylaruam. mortus. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:42:01 -0700 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion In-Reply-To: <200005211736.NAA32412@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:33 PM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >> Also bear in mind that Circe is level 100, and she is sort of Milenian :) >> >Yes, I have that module, too. Okay, now I'm confused. I thought the original reference to Circe was just a joke, but now James is confirming that he knows of it. The only "Circe" type I know of in D&D modules is Kersey, the Alphatian neo-Immortal from module M1: Into the Maelstrom, and she's only 30th level in her mortal guise. So who the heck is "Circe"? And how did she become level 100? ----- Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen Aspiring screenwriter, actor, and gadabout jsmill@wans.net "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Yes, I have that module, too. > > Okay, now I'm confused. I thought the original reference to Circe was just > a joke, but now James is confirming that he knows of it. > She a 100th level Character in "Throne of Bloodstone". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:16:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Milenian Fleet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> This is all very true. But Nithian craft would have mobility as well - > its just that the SoP stopped them! (Just like Milenia cant make a navy, > so they are effectively trapped as well). << > > Actually, Milenia does have a navy, but the mindset seems to be to use it > for defense (I.E. against the Merry Pirates and Traldar raiders) rather > than colonization/expansion. Reading the background, it looks like Milenia initially did not have a navy, as they are afraid of the sea. (the leviathan that munched on King Milen being responsible for that). However the Merry Pirate raiders were looting Milenia with impunity - and so, doubtless SoP inspired, the Milenians managed to produce a navy sufficient to deter piracy and such. I doubt the Milenian navy has any significant ability to project military force around the planet though. Their armies could well march a long way though (Alexander managed it after all :) Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:24:43 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-21 5:14:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: << Also (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they wouldn't want to take the abuse? >> Not according to DotE -- although even there it would depend on what sort of magic they practiced. Thyatians respect combat ability in terms of ability to deal damage to the enemy -- and any mage who can use a Fireball spell to incinerate an enemy regiment is certainly quite "respectable" in that category. As for Thyatis producing 250 L36 mages -- why not? If Alphatia with roughly twice the population and a greater interest in magic (thus perhaps persuading twice as many of the eligible potential mages to take up that career) can produce 1000 L36 mages, then 250 such mages for Thyatis would be about right. While either of these numbers could be criticized in terms of absolute value, it would seem to be about right for Thyatis to have roughly a quarter as many mages of maximum level as Alphatia does. My guess is that the mages of Sclaras are not all native to Thyatis, but that about as many mages immigrate to Thyatis as emigrate from it, thereby keeping the number near what it would be if they were all natives. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:24:40 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-21 4:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << I can't see why it would be "malfunctioning". It took the Immortals a long time to wake Alphatia up, maybe they were recalibrating the SoP while doing so. Just because Alphatia was big when it was transported - I think that make no difference whatsoever.>> They would have had to recalibrate the Spell of Preservation at that time in order for it not to have "malfunctioned" afterwards -- and I was suggesting that they might have forgotten to do so in response to the "distress signal" going out from the Spell of Preservation. The reason that the removal of Alphatia to the Hollow World might have "overloaded" the Spell of Preservation is that analysis of the culture must be an operation of at least n-squared magnitude, where n = number of people checked. The analysis of a culture of thousands of people would require millions of comparisons, while analysis of a culture of millions of people would require trillions of checks (or whatever you happen to call millions of millions in your country, since there are different systems for naming numbers in different countries). It is possible that everything that happened to the Hollow World after the transplantation of Alphatia was a deliberate plan of the Immortals -- but there are reasons for thinking that they got careless which I will detail a bit later. << The way I see it, the SoP perhaps assists a nation grow initially - the thousand transplanted from the OW quickly build their empire - and then keeps them in line afterwards. Alphatia just bypassed the first bit. If the SoP can keep the Azca, the Nithians and the Milenians in line, it can definitely handle the Alphatians.>> It COULD keep them in line -- but there are reasons to doubt that it still CAN. The numbers do not pose a problem for control once a culture is analyzed -- but they did pose a problem for the initial analysis. The current problem is that the Spell of Preservation itself has been weakened, thus bringing into doubt its long term ability to do its job. <> You have pointed out something that would be quite important if it is not a simple error on the part of the creators of the Hollow World. The Hollow World existed for thousands or perhaps millions of years with no Spell of Preservation, so the Spell is not necessary to the survival of the Hollow World -- but without that World Shield the entire planet of Mystara would collapse like a broken eggshell. None of the events in WotI should have had the power to physically weaken the World Shield -- and yet according to the PWAs, it was indeed weakened. The only cause that would make sense would be that there is some sort of mystical connection between the World Shield and the Spell of Preservation, and that somehow the Spell of Preservation draws its power from the World Shield and thereby weakens it. That would suggest that any tampering with the Spell of Preservation by the Immortals was either accidental or carried out without sufficient concern for the consequences -- a major "OOPS!" in either case. It would seem that a major goal of any Immortals interested in preserving Mystara would be to reduce the work that the Spell of Preservation must do to the point that the World Shield can replenish itself. Perhaps they should forbid the introduction of any more cultures to the Hollow World? Or introduce some sort of cataclysm to the Hollow World to bring the more powerful cultures into line? In a message dated 2000-05-21 4:27:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK writes: << These penalties for those outside their area for Nithia IMO should be duplicated for Alphatia. I would hazard that Alphatia could control everything above the skyshield (all the floating continents perhaps) but are heavily penalised when venturing into the HW proper (the SoP would be problem enough with the spell restrictions, almost). Certainly if Alphatia gets uppity and starts trying something, the Smack should be laid down swiftly so they make other plans (either unrest at home forcing Alphatia to turn inward looking, reducing the effectiveness of Alphatian combat forces, or improving the defence of those they are attacking, cf the Neathar). >> I wonder whether the very fact that Alphatia was made into a floating continent and not a normal one may have been one of the factors that prevented limits from being set on the range of their flying ships -- the other being the stress resulting from the various assaults and overloads that the Spell of Preservation suffered during WotI and the re-creation of Alphatia. At this point I suspect that some Immortal will have to tinker with the Spell of Preservation in order to introduce a general restriction on flying ships, with possibly unpredictable results given that the Hollow World could undergo something even worse than the "Week of No Magic" while the Spell of Preservation is "down for repairs". ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:19:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Okay, now I'm confused. I thought the original reference to Circe was just > a joke, but now James is confirming that he knows of it. > > The only "Circe" type I know of in D&D modules is Kersey, the Alphatian > neo-Immortal from module M1: Into the Maelstrom, and she's only 30th level > in her mortal guise. > > So who the heck is "Circe"? And how did she become level 100? Nothing to do with Mystara. Theres a set of modules, one of which is the Throne of Bloodstone which I have, designed for level 100 characters. Needless to say they assume you dont have level 100 characters, so you get pregens. Circe is the wizard - a level 100 1st ed illusionist. She has buddies like Perseus the level 100 fighter and Hermes the level 100 thief. The adventure is very much OTT. I remember there is a City of the Liches encounter. (including 10 demiliches!). That sums the module up... Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:02:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland replied to a message from Jacob Skytte: >>> Who says that Thyatis "produced" these mages? << >=20 >> Ahh, I see; you're one of "those" people.<< Thanks, I've been categorised, I see... =20 >> Well, if you want to believe that Thyatis set asside an island for = the use of a bunch of people who are antipathetic to it, then you're = free to do that. Strained, odd interpretations seem to be de-rigur (next = I suppose you might say that there's nothing to suggest that Alphatia = "produced" the members of its Council of Wizards, right? But that = Alphatia just gives them a prominent role in Alphatian society out of = some odd generousity. That's anagolous to what you're suggesting here. . = .)<< This is not exactly what I meant (though perhaps more or less so). I = don't think that these mages would be antipathetic, but rather apathetic = when it comes to Thyatian politics and military matters. The reason that = I don't like the "250 L36 mages of Thyatis" is mainly that I think the = number is ridiculous (and, yes, I think that Alphatia is ridiculous in = that regard as well, but I didn't really want to drag Alphatia into this = discussion). The way I see it, there might be a goodly number of = Thyatian wizards among them, but Sclaras might rather be a retreat for = high-level mages of "the Known World" in general. A place where they = have some sort of laws to protect their holdings and laboratories, where = the peasants don't come wielding pitchforks, etc. And, of course it = doesn't hurt Thyatis to have good relations with these mages in their = lands, should they face an invasion. But I don't think that the = government (or the military) can just call on them if they need their = aid. They're L36 M-U's for crying out loud. They ought to have other = interests (in themselves, rather than in the nation that hosts their = estates) at this level. I hope that you see my points (even if you don't necessarily agree with = them), and spare me the remarks that I make "odd" interpretations. =20 >>> Also (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that = places such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be = scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since = they wouldn't want to take the abuse?=20 =20 >> You're wrong there, too. See Player's Guide to Thyatis, p.10, under = "Role of Magic-Users."<< Ok, I guess I stand corrected in that regard, though the military part = seems to be about Foresters exclusively, not M-U's in general. > Good try, though. Uhm, thanks, I guess, but I rather dislike that obvious bit of = patronization, since I don't really agree with your interpretation (even = if, as you say, most people won't concur with MY interpretation). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:20:48 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James Ruhland replied to a message from Jacob Skytte: >> Who says that Thyatis "produced" these mages? First of all, the = wizards of Sclaras aren't restricted to being Thyatian, as far as I can tell. Second, nobody knows whether these mages ever adventured in Thyatis.<< >=20 > 1) If they aren't Thyatian or interested in Thyatis, then they're not > likely to want to go there and set up shop. They can do that just fine = "at > home" (wherever that is). As the description of Sclaras says, in just = about > every powerful land there's a retreat for powerful mages - the mages = of, > say, Glantri wouldn't need Sclaras when they can lord it about in = Glantri. > Mages of Alphatia have Blackheart and the full run of Alphatia (plus, = if > you think the Thyatians would grant estates on Sclaras to members or > potential members of the Alphatian Grand Council of Wizards, you're > dreamin'). No, I'm not talking about mages from either Glantri or Alphatia (well, = perhaps Glantri if they actually had a number of L36 mages or even = high-level mages who weren't already part of the Glantrian nobility), = but about mages from nations that are less well-known for magic = traditions (just as Thyatis is). The distinction here is that Thyatis is = a large empire that has set aside an area for high-level mages. Yes, the = Sclaras description says that every "powerful" nation has such a place = (though what is meant by powerful, or why these places aren't described = in relevant GAZ's is anybody's guess), but that doesn't prevent the = ultra-powerful mages (L36) from having an estate on Sclaras as well. > 2) If they have no interest or ties to Thyatis, highly unlikely to = ever > apply for an estate on Sclaras (see #1 above), and even more unlikely = to > ever "make the cut" and be granted one (receiving an estate isn't > automatic, given out to any and every joker from the back of beyond, = you > know). Granting of estates isn't an automatic thing, and you're not = going > to get one if the rest don't think you deserve one for whatever = reason. Not > being skilled enough is one, being disliked would be one, not knowing = you > from adam is another ("never adventured in Thyatis"), and not having = at > least some sort of tie to Thyatis is certainly one. They need not have interests in Thyatis proper, they might just be = interested in having a peaceful estate, and a place where they can = expect to find other powerful mages on "neutral" ground. And a L36 M-U = is highly unlikely to be a "joker from the back of beyond". Even in the = mighty self-centered (argh, I shouldn't have said that...) Empire of = Thyatis they would probably have heard of "joker L36"'s exploits in = other countries. And, it doesn't say anywhere who controls ownership of = the estates. Actually it says that it used to be the throne, but that = they dare not interfere anymore. So why shouldn't foreigners be allowed = as long as they haven't proven themselves hostile or directly = antipathetic to Thyatis? > 3) Again, your statement is like claiming that one doesn't have to be > Alphatian or even inclined towards Alphatia to be given a seat on the > Alphatian Grand Council of Wizards (after all, it doesn't explicitly = *say* > one has to be Alphatian or even like Alphatia to be given a seat. But = some > things are just implicit - the writer figures people will use a = modicum of > common sense from time to time, and so for sake of space doesn't = always > state the obvious.) There is a huge difference to being in a ruling Council, and being = granted an estate. Owners of Sclaras estates do not rule the Empire of = Thyatis (though the same could probably be said about most members of = Alphatia's Grand Council) neither theoretically nor practically. Sclaras = is a retreat for high-level mages, not a governing body. And Alphatia = has that funny Ueber-mensch attitude that the Thyatians don't share with = them. This would make it impossible for a non-Alphatian to end up in the = Grand Council, while leaving tha Thyatians more open-minded in that = regard. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:27:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul George Dooley responded to a message from Jacob Skytte: >> (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places = such regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they = wouldn't want to take the abuse?<< >=20 > Then again once his squad buddies see the effects of his sleep = spell, > would they be quite so insulting? > > IMO Thyatis has always based it's military on all three branches, > competent warriors, clerics and mages, because there's great military > advantage in doing so. Consider the morale effect upon the opposing = infantry > unit as a couple of fireballs race towards them. "Shit! How many more = of > those things have they got?", is then the uppermost thought in the > opposition, not their well drilled fighting manoeuvres. Yes, I agree with this, I might have been a bit hasty with that comment. = It's just that I find it hard to imagine mages wanting to be part of an = army (even though they would be highly effective) unless they were = actually drafted. I know that other nations have armies with mages in = them (Glantri and Alphatia), and I also have a hard time envisioning = this (and Alphatia's Imperial Bolt-men are, well, ridiculous. Beam me = up, please!) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:34:46 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phillip Jones replied to a message from Jacob Skytte: >> (I think I've seen this discussion before) for a culture that places = such >> regard on the might of arms, wouldn't M-U's in the army be scorned by >> regular warriors, thus keeping their numbers very low, since they = wouldn't >> want to take the abuse? > According to the Legions of Thyatis scenario, a command > cohort of a Thyatian Legion consists of Legion Cavalry, Elite = Infantry, > Pioneers, Foresters, and a Medical Corps. It states that the Forester > section are scouts that are usually made up of 100 elves (although IMO = I > can't see why magic users would be excluded). The Medical Corps = consists of > 100 clerics (obviously). I have to disagree with the medical corps "obviously" being clerics. = Though they would be more effective, I'm not so sure that you could = scare up that many clerics exclusively for army use. There might be a = number of them, but for the most part they could just as well be more = mundane medics. And the Foresters seem more likely than ordinary M-U's = to be in the military, since they're described as magic-using = fighting-men. > This would suggest that a Thyatian Legion has always incorporated = magic into > its make-up. In addition to this, after the Thyatians had the stuffing > kicked out of them by the Alphatians in WotI, wouldn't they increase = the > number of magic users they had in their Cohorts to increase their > firepower?? > Personally, I think after such a harsh lesson, the Thyatian military = would > incorporate one magic-user in each squad (of 10 men). A sort of heavy > weapons guy if you like. :) I don't like, but I agree with you that post-WotI Thyatis would want to = draft some more magic power into their legions. Or perhaps they would = rather try to come up with some tactics to deal with serious magical = opposition. Or perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any = serious magical opposition. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:45:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Emperor Porphyrogenitus To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Thyatian background help needed > Mystara wrote: > >> OK I've got one or two questions and suggestions for you. The first one was of course, where is Kantrium? << > > Kantrium is a Duchy in the Thyatian mainland, east of Retebius, west of Tel Akbir, south of the easternmost tip of the Southern Altan Tepes Mountains, fronting the northern shore of the Gulf of Kantrium. > > > >> This suggests to me that it has been created recently, << > > Actually, the Duchy of Kantrium is one of the Empire's oldest, but currently less prominent, dominions. It was formed during the reign of the first Emperor, Zendrol. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:42:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Rob Subject: Re: Spell of Preservation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > They would have had to recalibrate the Spell of Preservation at that time in > order for it not to have "malfunctioned" afterwards -- and I was suggesting > that they might have forgotten to do so in response to the "distress signal" > going out from the Spell of Preservation. The reason that the removal of > Alphatia to the Hollow World might have "overloaded" the Spell of > Preservation is that analysis of the culture must be an operation of at > least n-squared magnitude, where n = number of people checked. The > analysis of a culture of thousands of people would require millions of > comparisons, while analysis of a culture of millions of people would > require trillions of checks (or whatever you happen to call millions of > millions in your country, since there are different systems for naming > numbers in different countries). It is possible that everything that > happened to the Hollow World after the transplantation of Alphatia > was a deliberate plan of the Immortals -- but there are reasons for > thinking that they got careless which I will detail a bit later. Mmm. I'm not sure I buy into the SoP behaving as an algorithm. Magic doesnt generally work that way. Far more likely IMO that it is semi sentient (not an impossible task to achieve with magic of that level) and acts as a sort of nanny figure. Makes sense if it was handled in that way too - it would be both more versatile and more resilient. Assuming it doesnt go rogue or anything... :) Perhaps the Worldshield is like a Baak of some sort, but in liquid form, and perhaps its this baby who is acting as "guardian" for the entire HW? (Baak are cool. 2001 monoliths!). > The only possible weakening, as I see it, was the actual effects on the > Worldshield of Alphatia sinking. (And maybe Thanatos' burrowers too). But > bear in mind the HW depends on the SoP for its survival - if the SoP breaks, > the HW breaks as well (read the HW modules...) maybe taking the OW with it. > >> > > You have pointed out something that would be quite important if it is not a > simple error on the part of the creators of the Hollow World. The Hollow > World existed for thousands or perhaps millions of years with no Spell of > Preservation, so the Spell is not necessary to the survival of the Hollow > World -- but without that World Shield the entire planet of Mystara would > collapse like a broken eggshell. It was hollow, but there was no sun, and perhaps even no Skyshield or polar openings. In any case, the removal of the SoP now would destroy the HW - that was one of Thanatos' plots, anyway. >None of the events in WotI should have > had the power to physically weaken the World Shield -- and yet according > to the PWAs, it was indeed weakened. The only cause that would make > sense would be that there is some sort of mystical connection between > the World Shield and the Spell of Preservation, and that somehow the > Spell of Preservation draws its power from the World Shield and thereby > weakens it. Well, yeah, there is. I refer you again to Thanatos' plot. The Worldshield and the SoP are definitely linked in some way. I assumed the Worldshield was damaged when Alphatia was nuked... >That would suggest that any tampering with the Spell of > Preservation by the Immortals was either accidental or carried out without > sufficient concern for the consequences -- a major "OOPS!" in either case. > It would seem that a major goal of any Immortals interested in preserving > Mystara would be to reduce the work that the Spell of Preservation must > do to the point that the World Shield can replenish itself. Perhaps they > should forbid the introduction of any more cultures to the Hollow World? > Or introduce some sort of cataclysm to the Hollow World to bring the more > powerful cultures into line? Well, yeah. Nuke Alphatia a bit more ;) > I wonder whether the very fact that Alphatia was made into a floating > continent > and not a normal one may have been one of the factors that prevented limits > from being set on the range of their flying ships -- the other being the > stress > resulting from the various assaults and overloads that the Spell of > Preservation > suffered during WotI and the re-creation of Alphatia. At this point I suspect > that some Immortal will have to tinker with the Spell of Preservation in order > to introduce a general restriction on flying ships, with possibly > unpredictable > results given that the Hollow World could undergo something even worse than > the "Week of No Magic" while the Spell of Preservation is "down for repairs". Well, we dont know how many Skyships Alph has. Presumably most were Kicking Ass in WotI. Maybe the SoP effects on magic make creating new ones extremely difficult. This makes them a precious commodity. As the Alphers now need skyships to do Anything (being on a floating continent) their ability to move large bodies of troops around has basically been stopped dead. I cant see the Alphers dropping 10,000 troops anywhere in the HW. And 10,000 is a speck compared to what Nithia or Milenia can field. They can project force - but not en masse. And are therefore limited in their capabilities. And - why bother? They should be happy. The mages really are in their ivory tower now, undisturbed! no one can even get up there anymore. Cheers Rob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:49:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Thyatian background help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> OK I've got one or two questions and suggestions for you. The first one was of course, where is Kantrium? << > > Kantrium is a Duchy in the Thyatian mainland, east of Retebius, west of Tel Akbir, south of the easternmost tip of the Southern Altan Tepes Mountains, fronting the northern shore of the Gulf of Kantrium. > Thanks for the location. When I checked it up again, sure enough there it was. Doh! Can't see for looking these days! :} ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Thanks, I've been categorised, I see...<< You're welcome. I'm here to help. >> The way I see it, there might be a goodly number of Thyatian wizards among them, but Sclaras might rather be a retreat for high-level mages of "the Known World" in general. A place where they have some sort of laws to protect their holdings and laboratories, where the peasants don't come wielding pitchforks, etc.<< Well, IMO that sort of begs the question, since they can probably get that level of regard in places where they've got connections, have developed ties and friendships with people, etc. And as for isolation, there's plenty of areas a mage could go for privacy and isolation in just about every country. Again, Glantri's Wizards aren't likely to feel a need for a small patch of Thyatis when there's plenty of Glantri for them to hang out in - both "public" and "private" (public meaning, say, chateaus where peasants might come at 'em if they for some reason felt they might want to, and tons of wilderness for hidden labs, etc). >> But I don't think that the government (or the military) can just call on them if they need their aid. They're L36 M-U's for crying out loud. They ought to have other interests (in themselves, rather than in the nation that hosts their estates) at this level. << Well, I don't think that's what anyone was exactly claiming, either - which is then why I find it odd you're objecting to their mention. I don't recall anyone saying that they get press-ganged into service. >> Ok, I guess I stand corrected in that regard, though the military part seems to be about Foresters exclusively, not M-U's in general. << Actually, that part doesn't even mention Foresters at all. >> No, I'm not talking about mages from either Glantri or Alphatia (well, perhaps Glantri if they actually had a number of L36 mages or even high-level mages who weren't already part of the Glantrian nobility), but about mages from nations that are less well-known for magic traditions (just as Thyatis is). << Well, then they're likely to get an accomodation in their own lands. I mean, what do you think Stefan Karameikos might do to keep his few home-grown Mega-Wizards contented and happy? IMO, he'd probably grant them a lot more than 160 acres. He might even toss in a mule or four. Why look elsewhere? >> They need not have interests in Thyatis proper, they might just be interested in having a peaceful estate. << Which they can get anywhere (see above), probably with less hassle than they'd face in attempting to get an estate in Thyatis without being known or having any ties to Thyatis. >> Even in the mighty self-centered (argh, I shouldn't have said that...) Empire of Thyatis they would probably have heard of "joker L36"'s exploits in other countries. << Which doesn't mean they're going to give them something if they're indifferent at best to the Empire. I mean, they might offer blandisments to get them to come. . .for the Empire's benifit. But they wouldn't bend over forwards to give them something for nothing. >> And, it doesn't say anywhere who controls ownership of the estates. << The mages themselves likely do, via some mechanism. Thyatian mages, that is. Remember who established the first one. They might be more open to outsiders than Alphatians would be, but there's no reason to grant out estates to just anyone from wherever. >> Actually it says that it used to be the throne, but that they dare not interfere anymore. So why shouldn't foreigners be allowed as long as they haven't proven themselves hostile or directly antipathetic to Thyatis? << But why should they if the guys are indifferent? And why would such guys even *want* an estate like that in Thyatis? Plenty of places closer to home. Other places don't go around handing out lots to people with no interests in the place, why would Thyatis? *Especially* why would Thyatians, who happen to be a self-interested lot. Plus, though it says that the throne doesn't interfier in the activities of the mages, it also says that getting an estate isn't an automatic thing for every tom jones from wherever. Sclaras is *not* listed as being a neutral meeting ground for mages from around the world: it's a part of Thyatis. >> I have to disagree with the medical corps "obviously" being clerics. << It mentions specifically that they are Clerics. Anyhow, I understand better where you're coming from that you dislike the idea of 250 (or 1,000, or whatever) 36th level mega-mages. Might be something to ask Aaron Allston about (why so many uber-dudes). In any case, simple solution I know many people have adopted who've had similar reactions: re-interpret it for one's own campaign. Instead of 36th level, make it 18th - 36th. Or whatever suits the "power-level" of your campaign. As for me being patronizing, I appologize for that. As for catagorizing, that part (the "Ahh, I see you're one of 'Them'." statement) was a joke. Didn't come off well. Anyhow, as the Evil Genius of the MML it's part of my schtick to catagorize. 8-)~ I still think it's a strained, odd interpretation, though, to assume that Sclaras is some sort of "open island" for people from all over Mystara. If it *were* that, then I for one *do* think that would have been mentioned - it would have been an important bit of "local color atmosphere" not to be overlooked. It's a Thyatian dominion, the "common-sense assumption" being that it's inhabited, like the other parts of Thyatis, by Thyatians - of course, Thyatians aren't a "race" per se: but Thyatian isn't the same as "guy from Darokin who likes to hang out here because we give away free estates but otherwise has no interest in Thyatis." There's places in Darokin for guys like that, IMO - and the Council of Darokin will, as I said above, probably go to some lengths to keep "their" mages happy - just as the Thyatian government is willing to go to some lengths (I.E. not interfier in Sclaras) to keep "its" mages happy. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:14:35 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-21 6:36:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scythe@WANADOO.DK writes: << I don't like, but I agree with you that post-WotI Thyatis would want to draft some more magic power into their legions. Or perhaps they would rather try to come up with some tactics to deal with serious magical opposition. Or perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any serious magical opposition. >> The Thothians don't count? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:14:51 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Circe Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So who the heck is "Circe"? And how did she become level 100? > Ok. It took me awhile to locate my copy of "Throne" and then I was busy writting long screeds about lesser Wizards (ones who are "merely" 36th level). Who is Circe? Rob covered part of this, but "Throne of Bloodstone" isn't written solely (or even primarily) with 100th level characters in mind. It's written with more "typical" characters in mind (if you think of, say, 18th-20th level characters as "typical"), BUT also has sections that allow people to explore the outter bounds of AD&D power - 100th level characters. HOWEVER - the 100th level characters as defined by Throne of Bloodstone aren't all that much more powerful than their "lesser" peers - they're nothing like, say, a "modern" 40th level Forgotten Realms mage (I.E. for the "modern" 40th level mage, the spell progression chart continues up that far. In Throne of Bloodstone, they say the charts *don't* continue beyond what was provided in the 1st edition Player's Manual - so a 100th level mage isn't much different from a 29th level mage, except for having 61 more hit points). Indeed, much of the discussion of 100th level characters focuses on what they *can't* do, rather than what they can. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:56:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> The way I see it, there might be a goodly number of Thyatian wizards among them, but Sclaras might rather be a retreat for high-level mages = of "the Known World" in general. A place where they have some sort of laws = to protect their holdings and laboratories, where the peasants don't come wielding pitchforks, etc.<< >=20 > Well, IMO that sort of begs the question, since they can probably get = that > level of regard in places where they've got connections, have = developed > ties and friendships with people, etc. And as for isolation, there's = plenty > of areas a mage could go for privacy and isolation in just about every > country. Again, Glantri's Wizards aren't likely to feel a need for a = small > patch of Thyatis when there's plenty of Glantri for them to hang out = in - > both "public" and "private" (public meaning, say, chateaus where = peasants > might come at 'em if they for some reason felt they might want to, and = tons > of wilderness for hidden labs, etc). No, Glantrian wizards needn't have an estate in Thyatis. Glantri and = Alphatia are the free havens for mages in the "Known World" of Mystara. >> But I don't think that the government (or the military) can just call = on them if they need their aid. They're L36 M-U's for crying out loud. They ought to have other interests (in themselves, rather than in the nation that hosts their estates) at this level. << >=20 > Well, I don't think that's what anyone was exactly claiming, either - = which > is then why I find it odd you're objecting to their mention. I don't = recall > anyone saying that they get press-ganged into service. What started me down this thread was some mention of how Thyatis' 250 = mighty mega-mages (and all their lower level buddies) would kick some = Hollow World nation's butt in a straight fight. And thus I felt that I = had to respond that these 250 dudes wouldn't band together to kick = anybody's butt, so I thought the discussion was pointless. =20 >> Ok, I guess I stand corrected in that regard, though the military = part seems to be about Foresters exclusively, not M-U's in general. << >=20 > Actually, that part doesn't even mention Foresters at all. Uhm, yes it does. It says that "magic can be used in warfare" then a = little further on that Foresters are "magic-using fighting-men". This = seems to me to imply that the Foresters are the ones interested in the = army (also pointed out in Legions, according to Phillip Jones). =20 >> No, I'm not talking about mages from either Glantri or Alphatia = (well, perhaps Glantri if they actually had a number of L36 mages or even high-level mages who weren't already part of the Glantrian nobility), = but about mages from nations that are less well-known for magic traditions (just as Thyatis is). << >=20 > Well, then they're likely to get an accomodation in their own lands. I > mean, what do you think Stefan Karameikos might do to keep his few > home-grown Mega-Wizards contented and happy? IMO, he'd probably grant = them > a lot more than 160 acres. He might even toss in a mule or four. Why = look > elsewhere? I don't know what Stefan would do. But the Traladarans aren't all that = happy with mages in the country-side. And probably even less if they're = granted huge amounts of land. The only mention I have of a retreat for = Mega-Wizzes is Sclaras and I prefer to work with that, rather than = backtrack and say that the older GAZ's just left that part out. And = while we're at it the Sclaras paragraph says that "many famous Thyatian = wizards have estates here". This seems to me to imply that the rest of = the mages aren't Thyatian rather than that they aren't famous. Of = course, you probably go for the last interpretation, but I don't think = that the first one is "odd". >> Even in the mighty self-centered (argh, I shouldn't have said = that...) Empire of Thyatis they would probably have heard of "joker L36"'s = exploits in other countries. << >=20 > Which doesn't mean they're going to give them something if they're > indifferent at best to the Empire. I mean, they might offer = blandisments to > get them to come. . .for the Empire's benifit. But they wouldn't bend = over > forwards to give them something for nothing. >=20 >> And, it doesn't say anywhere who controls ownership of the estates. = << >=20 > The mages themselves likely do, via some mechanism. Thyatian mages, = that > is. Remember who established the first one. They might be more open to > outsiders than Alphatians would be, but there's no reason to grant out > estates to just anyone from wherever. Yes, I thought that it would be a mage's council of some sort who = controlled ownership of the estates. And I don't see why they wouldn't = want foreigners among them; if they'd heard of their exploits, and = thought that perhaps they could gain a little extra knowledge from = getting some foreign magic close to them. And as for the foreigners, = they could be thinking along similar lines, seeing it as an opportunity = to rub shoulders with other great mages, and hopefully grab a little = extra magical knowledge. Yes, I do know that they don't sit around = campfires exchanging spells, but still, there's gotta be a little = mingling of some sort. >> Actually it says that it used to be the throne, but that they dare = not interfere anymore. So why shouldn't foreigners be allowed as long as = they haven't proven themselves hostile or directly antipathetic to Thyatis? = << >=20 > But why should they if the guys are indifferent? And why would such = guys > even *want* an estate like that in Thyatis? Plenty of places closer to > home. Other places don't go around handing out lots to people with no > interests in the place, why would Thyatis? *Especially* why would > Thyatians, who happen to be a self-interested lot. > Plus, though it says that the throne doesn't interfier in the = activities of > the mages, it also says that getting an estate isn't an automatic = thing for > every tom jones from wherever. Sclaras is *not* listed as being a = neutral > meeting ground for mages from around the world: it's a part of = Thyatis. Because Sclaras is not run by Thyatis, but by mages of L36. Their = interests definitely need not be the same as the interests of the = Thyatian government. And they aren't, since the Thyatian Throne = seemingly wants to interfere, but doesn't dare do it. >> I have to disagree with the medical corps "obviously" being clerics. = << >=20 > It mentions specifically that they are Clerics. All right, I stand corrected. I don't have Legions of Thyatis lying = around, and the way it was written, it seemed to be the author's (of the = mail) interpretation of the term "Medical Corps". > Anyhow, I understand better where you're coming from that you dislike = the > idea of 250 (or 1,000, or whatever) 36th level mega-mages. Might be > something to ask Aaron Allston about (why so many uber-dudes). In any = case, > simple solution I know many people have adopted who've had similar > reactions: re-interpret it for one's own campaign. Instead of 36th = level, > make it 18th - 36th. Or whatever suits the "power-level" of your = campaign. As you can probably derive from this thread I'd rather accept the = numbers as they are and work with them. And I happen to think that = having the 250 ueber-dudes be of mixed nationalities is a good way to = rationalise it, not an odd one. > As for me being patronizing, I appologize for that. > As for catagorizing, that part (the "Ahh, I see you're one of 'Them'." > statement) was a joke. Didn't come off well. > Anyhow, as the Evil Genius of the MML it's part of my schtick to > catagorize. 8-)~ You are forgiven, I don't hold grudges, I just get momentarily annoyed. = No hard feelings... ;) > I still think it's a strained, odd interpretation, though, to assume = that > Sclaras is some sort of "open island" for people from all over = Mystara. If > it *were* that, then I for one *do* think that would have been = mentioned - > it would have been an important bit of "local color atmosphere" not to = be > overlooked. It's a Thyatian dominion, the "common-sense assumption" = being > that it's inhabited, like the other parts of Thyatis, by Thyatians - = of > course, Thyatians aren't a "race" per se: but Thyatian isn't the same = as > "guy from Darokin who likes to hang out here because we give away free > estates but otherwise has no interest in Thyatis." There's places in > Darokin for guys like that, IMO - and the Council of Darokin will, as = I > said above, probably go to some lengths to keep "their" mages happy - = just > as the Thyatian government is willing to go to some lengths (I.E. not > interfier in Sclaras) to keep "its" mages happy. The way stuff is listed in DotE is dominion by dominion, so I think that = it's a little too easy to just read it as every entry is a dominion = similar to the last one. The way that the Sclaras description is made is = very similar to the descriptions of other dominions in Thyatis. But the = contents are very dissimilar. Sclaras has no laws. Sclaras consists of a = lot of ultimate mages. What can you make of this? That Thyatis has 250 = home-grown Ueber-mages (and more in the waiting lists) or that Thyatis = plays host to 250 cosmopolitan Ueber-mages, probably with some more or = less secret agenda (hoping that they will take local apprentices that = will be loyal to Thyatis; hoping that they will help out in case of an = invasion; or whatever). I don't think that any of these interpretations = are strained or even odd. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:07:25 +0200 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable << I don't like, but I agree with you that post-WotI Thyatis would want = to draft some more magic power into their legions. Or perhaps they would = rather try to come up with some tactics to deal with serious magical = opposition. Or perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any serious magical opposition. >> >=20 > The Thothians don't count? No, not really. The Thothian regular armies (according to the Poor = Wizard's Almanac) don't have any M-U's or Clerics aside from heroes in = them. Their Undead and Special Divisions do have some, but the Special = Division is restricted to staying at home, and the Undead Division = mainly fights physically with reanimated skeletons and zombies. They do = have some Alphatian Irregulars left over from Wrath, but these are just = that. Leftovers and Irregulars. Not serious magical opposition. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:59:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> According to the Legions of Thyatis scenario, a command >> cohort of a Thyatian Legion consists of Legion Cavalry, Elite Infantry, >> Pioneers, Foresters, and a Medical Corps. It states that the Forester >> section are scouts that are usually made up of 100 elves (although IMO I >> can't see why magic users would be excluded). The Medical Corps consists >>of >> 100 clerics (obviously). >I have to disagree with the medical corps "obviously" being clerics. Though >they would be more effective, I'm not so sure that you could scare up that >many clerics exclusively for army use. There might be a number of them, but >for the most part they could just as well be more mundane medics. Again, according to Legions of Thyatis "each legion has a century of clerics from the Wings of Vanya or other clerical orders". I do see your point though (it does strike me as odd that 100 clerics of Vanya, an Immortal of War and Conquest would just sit about while a battle raged, waiting to treat the wounded), although with the size of the (pre-WotI) Thyatian Empire, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to find a couple of hundred (in total) clerics for this purpose. > And the Foresters seem more likely than ordinary M-U's to be in the military, since they're described as magic-using fighting-men. I figured that everyone would deduce that for themselves, for are not Foresters basically the Elf class, only human? What I meant was Magic Users IMO would not be excluded from this career. >> This would suggest that a Thyatian Legion has always incorporated magic >> into >> its make-up. In addition to this, after the Thyatians had the stuffing >> kicked out of them by the Alphatians in WotI, wouldn't they increase the >> number of magic users they had in their Cohorts to increase their >> firepower?? >> Personally, I think after such a harsh lesson, the Thyatian military >> would >> incorporate one magic-user in each squad (of 10 men). A sort of heavy >> weapons guy if you like. :) >I don't like, but I agree with you that post-WotI Thyatis would want to > draft >some more magic power into their legions. Or perhaps they would > rather try > to come up with some tactics to deal with serious magical > opposition. Or > perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any > serious magical > opposition. OK, maybe heavy weapons guy was the wrong metaphor, but you get my point. However, not have any serious magical opposition? What about NACE? (Admittedly I don't really know much about NACE, but as it seems to be made up of former Alphatian colonies I would assume that its troops are quite magically orientated.) Or Glantri? (I know that Glantri is quite far away from Thyatis, but since when has distance been a problem when it comes to magic?) OK, the Thyatian military could come up with a trick or two against magical opposition, but the most efficient way to fight magic is with magic, and Thyatians are nothing but efficient! :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:20:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Phillip Jones Subject: Re: Oops! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I'd better post a quick apology. It seems like an e-mail I was replying to escaped onto the list. Sorry about that. I don't know, these e-mails - slippery little beggers.......... :) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:23:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What started me down this thread was some mention of how Thyatis' 250 mighty mega-mages (and all their lower level buddies) would kick some Hollow World nation's butt in a straight fight. And thus I felt that I had to respond that these 250 dudes wouldn't band together to kick anybody's butt, so I thought the discussion was pointless. << Well, that's not really what the guy said, though, was it ? He said, in effect, that in his opinion Thyatis could hardly be considered weaker than Milenia from a magical standpoint and used the 250 wizards of Sclaras as an example. >> Uhm, yes it does. It says that "magic can be used in warfare" then a little further on that Foresters are "magic-using fighting-men". << Right - that part is in the second paragraph, though. I was refering to the first. >> This seems to me to imply that the Foresters are the ones interested in the army (also pointed out in Legions, according to Phillip Jones). << Foresters are some of those interested in the army, but it implies the exact reverse of what you're saying, actually: it doesn't imply that only Foresters are of military interest, it implies that all magic is of military interest, and that the Foresters are a outgrowth/development of that, being warriors who combine fighting with magic. See also p.14 of the Player's Guide to Thyatis, under "The Ministries" under "Ministry of War", on the study and creation of new war-spells. Of course, you're free to interpret things any way you want, but you also need to note presence of some prominent Thyatian Wizards among the Knights of the Air (Demetrion and Mitasula Retebius) - note specifically in the description of Mitasula Retebius that she was apprenticed to a naval wizard. So there are, at minimum, Wizards in the Thyatian navy - and thus one can probably conclude there are some in the other military branches as well, especially since the text does say that Thyatians like for, among other reasons, its usefulness in warfare. Of course you can decide to interpret that as meaning that they limit the use of magic and presence of spellcasters in their armies, but it does seem like an odd and strained interpretation of things. >> I don't know what Stefan would do. But the Traladarans aren't all that happy with mages in the country-side. And probably even less if they're granted huge amounts of land. << That's life as a Traladaran, though: your land is always being given out by Stefan to his cronies. So? What else is new? >> The only mention I have of a retreat for Mega-Wizzes is Sclaras and I prefer to work with that << Well, just remember that Sclaras is described as being part of Thyatis, and not as some neutral ground for Wizards from all over the place. >> This seems to me to imply that the rest of the mages aren't Thyatian << No, it doesn't; it only implies that many of the famous Thyatian wizards are there, but not nessissarily all of them. If it meant what you think it means, it would say "many famous Thyatian wizards are here, as well as Wizards from other Mystaran lands." Indeed, there is absolutely no allusion to any non-Thyatian Wizards on the island, and at this point I suppose I'll have to challenge you to find just one. One example and I'll bow to your superior wisdom. Any example, from any published Mystaran source - it doesn't even have to be DotE or a specifically Thyatian reference. Any Gaz, module, or Almanac is fine. >> Because Sclaras is not run by Thyatis, but by mages of L36. << Yes, it is part of Thyatis - check the nation it is entered under in every reference to it. >> And they aren't, since the Thyatian Throne seemingly wants to interfere, but doesn't dare do it. << Point out an example of where it seems that the Thyatian throne wants to interfere. Again, any one example is fine. >> As you can probably derive from this thread I'd rather accept the numbers as they are and work with them. << Well, then that's probably what you should do, instead of massaging them in various ways. At any rate, if it was meant like you suggest it was, then I think that at least one of the cases where Sclaras was described would make mention of it in some way. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't use your interpretation in your campaign, though. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:31:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: James Ruhland Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> And while we're at it the Sclaras paragraph says that "many famous Thyatian wizards have estates here". This seems to me to imply that the rest of the mages aren't Thyatian rather than that they aren't famous. Of course, you probably go for the last interpretation, but I don't think that the first one is "odd". << More on this by way of clarifying what I said about it in my last mail: That statement, "many famous Thyatian wizards have estates here" IMO more likely refers to the fact that not all the Wizards who are famous in Thyatis have estates here (which would be one of the other possible phrasings "all famous Thyatian wizards have estates here." Another possible phrasing would have been "many famous wizards from throughout the Known World have estates here"). Those two possible alternative phrasings weren't used. Why? Well, for one because not all famous Wizards would qualify to have estates there - lack of room for them might be one reason (albeit IMO a rare reason), but lack of "standing" would be another reason (I.E. Mitasula Retebius, who I mentioned in my last post, would probably be considered a famous Thyatian wizard - but she doesn't have an estate on Sclaras; she's not skilled enough yet to qualify for one, but that doesn't stop her from being famous). The other interpretation is strained because if it was meant to say that wizards from around the Known World have estates there but only some of them are Thyatians, it would use the other possible phrasing, the "many famous wizards from throughout the Known World have estates here" phrasing. That's not what it says. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:42:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservationdiscussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the writer figures people will use a modicum of > common sense from time to time, and so for sake of space doesn't always > state the obvious.) > It's only called common sense because the few of us who have it don't want to make the rest of you jealous! :-P ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:13:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I agree with this, I might have been a bit hasty with that comment. It's just that I find it hard to imagine mages wanting to be part of an army (even though they would be highly effective) unless they were actually drafted. I know that other nations have armies with mages in them (Glantri and Alphatia), and I also have a hard time envisioning this (and Alphatia's Imperial Bolt-men are, well, ridiculous. Beam me up, please!) Most mages, when not actually out on campaign, would probably receive better food an lodging than ordinary troops. They may receive status as an officer or NCO, which is almost invariably better pay and living conditions than most of the rest of the populace. For a poor low level mage this might also be a way to learn those combat spells before going out adventuring. They may have been apprenticed, and part of it was a stint in the army. Think imperial War College Magical Graduate. "Big fish, small pond" syndrome. There's a few suggestions. Willing to supply more if needed. ;^) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:17:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any serious magical opposition. PARDON! What about Thothia, NACE, HK etc? (OK I know HK are mainly clerical, but their horses sure fail v spells easily!) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:28:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> I don't know what Stefan would do. But the Traladarans aren't all that > happy with mages in the country-side. And probably even less if they're > granted huge amounts of land. << > Missed this the first time so snipped it from a reply of James'. When did the Traladarans become so dissatisfied with mages? IIrc isn't there some mention of magic cast the traditional Traladaran way being taught at Krakatos? As to the rest; Nobody likes a new landlord! ;^) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:17:24 EDT Reply-To: Mystara Sender: Mystara From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: Mages in Thyatis (was Spell of Preservation discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2000-05-21 11:33:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dooley@CABLEINET.CO.UK writes: << Or perhaps not, since post-WotI they don't really face any serious magical opposition. PARDON! What about Thothia, NACE, HK etc? (OK I know HK are mainly clerical, but their horses sure fail v spells easily!) >> This reminds me of something I recall reading a while back to the effect that dinosaurs would have a hard time surviving in modern times because most modern vertebrates are so much smarter than they are, even if humans were not around. Apparently natural selection has been pushing brainpower up for the past several million years, to the point that the earth is now dominated by a single species that has pretty much total control over the fate of the planet. Similarly, I remember reading in that book "Germs, Guns, and Steel" that the minor advantages that the cultures of Eurasia had over the rest of the world were so telling that the rest of the world (especially Oceania and the Americas) were unable to compete when Europeans finally discovered them -- the Europeans had too many advantages and too few disadvantages that did. In this case they were not smarter than the natives that they encountered -- but they did have a much more advanced technology, a more sophisticated culture, and a better resistance to disease. In regard to the Hollow World, most of the cultures there are severely disadvantaged relative to the outer world cultures -- but the Spell of Preservation negates those disadvantages for defensive purposes. When defending their homelands, the most primitive inhabitants of the Hollow World are seemingly immune to outer world diseases as well as to the tricks that outer worlders are likely to employ to take advantage of them. Within the Hollow World all material make equally good armor and weapons, so a Bronze Age or even a Stone Age culture can often fight back against outer worlders with more modern weapons -- to a point. The fact that stone weapons and armor work as well as steel ones is of little value when your tribe has a limited selection of weapons and cannot wear armor at all. And of course the disadvantages that are negated to a limited extent by the Spell of Preservation would become painfully obvious in the unlikely event that any Hollow World culture attempted to conquer an outer world culture. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp Find Local Players: http://nafsasp.wizards.com/Registries/TSR/Welcome.asp To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message.